26/04/2016 HARDtalk


26/04/2016

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Yet again, Pakistan stands accused of playing a double game on

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confronting it at home, using it as a foreign policy tool in

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After a deadly Taliban attack in Kabul just days ago, the Afghan

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president demanded that Islamabad stop talking of peace negotiations

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and instead focus on eliminating Taliban havens inside Pakistan.

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My guest today is former Pakistani foreign minister Hina Rabbani Khar.

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Is Pakistan addicted to the double game?

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Hina Rabbani Khar, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Pleasure to be here. I think it is fair to say that Pakistan is

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distrusted by its neighbours, Afghanistan and India. Distrusted

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also in Washington. Do you think that distrust is merited? Obviously

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not. I mean, you would use the word discredited, I would use the word

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scapegoated. I think the country has been scapegoated for a war that has

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not delivered the results that the international community expected,

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and there has to be somebody blamed. Early on, but even early on, it is

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interesting, because I recently met someone who served as CIA acting

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director and asked him how were relations during his time? This is a

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person associated since 2005, and he said Pakistan happened to be our

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best possible ally and we had benefited more from our

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collaboration and cooperation with your intelligence agency than any

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other in the world. I don't want to go into details of the long

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conversation we had as to what might have happened, but in my view, and

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having served as Pakistan Foreign Minister drink this difficult times,

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it is a war that did not deliver the results we wanted. Pakistan has its

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own, located situation. I am always amazed and surprised how Pakistan is

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expected to, and solve other problems before its own --

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complicated. If I may, the version of offends you recounted does not

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match what I hear from Washington or India or Pakistan. If we stick with

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Washington, when you took over as Foreign Minister in 2011, these were

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the words that must be ringing in your ears. Hillary Clinton saying

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you cannot keep snakes, into was referring to the Taliban, in your

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backyard, and expect them to only by your neighbours. That is the view

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Washington has of Pakistan. You keep snakes in your backyard. In 2011,

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that is exactly the view Bill Clinton and perhaps the entire

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Western establishment had -- Hillary Clinton. It is still be filling in

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Washington today. I figure it is different, but unfortunately the

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problem is far too complex to solve in 30 minutes. All of the patients

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the West is hard for the realities of the region where I come from, if

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you give me maybe two minutes to just say the reality is that

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Pakistan has been paying close to about 3 million Afghan refugees

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since the last three decades. Britain was recently deciding to

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take 20,000 refugees from Syria in a matter of five years, that is about

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8000 a year or less. We have been playing host to these many refugees,

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right? Refugees and not the problem, it is the Taliban leadership who

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have used your soil as a safe haven for years. With respect, as Foreign

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Minister, you denied an -- and offers skated. We had a senior

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Pakistani official for the first time say it is true, they are now so

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and they even received medical treatment. That gives us some of

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which over them, but the truth is you don't use that the rich. I think

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that would be completely a misrepresentation of how things are

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on the ground. I need to finish my two minutes to make the point that

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with 3 million in Pakistan, it is virtually impossible for a country

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with the paraphernalia that Pakistan has, complete control over who is

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entering and exiting. I will give you two examples. We wanted that

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control. We put the biometric system on our borders. On a single border

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post, 60,000 Pakistanis and Afghans cross that border post and checked

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without passports and visas every day. Do you expect us to have the

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wherewithal to find out how many of them are Taliban or not? I would not

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be little the logistical problems you are talking about the huge

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refugee problem Pakistan has faced. I want to get to some honesty about

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the realities of when you were Foreign Minister and today. Symbol

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question, yes or no. When you were Foreign Minister, did you know you

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Taliban leadership was using safe haven in Pakistan and controlling

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operations inside Afghanistan? I forget is impossible to be

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simplistic. It is unfair to the realities to be that simply stick.

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Why are senior officials now admitting it? -- simply stick. What

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they are an outing is not that different from what we were an

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outing. There are not only two factions of the Taliban but more

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than two factions. There is a faction that has been killing people

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and recruiting people in Pakistan the last many years. As far as

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Pakistan is concerned, I can tell you this is absolutely my personal

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view, and a few that the Pakistani establishment in government has come

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too many years back, anyone who uses violence against anyone within

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Pakistan or outside Pakistan is a terrorist. That is the explanation.

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They asked before a second? -- may I introduce for a second? We have a

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limited amount of time. President President Mack as a result of the

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recent terror attacks which killed more than 60 people in a security

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service wielding -- Asif Ali Zardari, Pakistan has two. This idea

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of dropping this idea of arranging negotiations with the Taliban. The

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Pakistani government need to eliminate the Taliban, who are

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inside Pakistan. That is the only way to deliver 's peace and

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security. Is Pakistan preferred to do that -- repaired to do that? Once

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President Asif Ali Zardari decides what it wants to do once and for

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all, does he want Pakistan to be a piece builder -- please builder,

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just now Mack? Are you prepared to launch an offensive against the

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Taliban? He would be well advised to be told it is Pakistan's job to

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first eliminate terrorists who are a threat to Pakistani civilians... You

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have a different idea. Those who work in India or Afghanistan are

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something else compared to those who work in Pakistan? That would be...

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That I want to clarify if you would give me a moment. I need to ask a

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question in response to that, how do you first decide to ensure the

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safety and security of your own civilians, or use of the UK pay

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Minister's job was to listen to what is a threat to France. The exact

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Prime Minister. It is important that we are able to understand that

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Pakistan's first responsibility is to its own citizens. I as the saying

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is a lot of authority. Pakistan is putting an operation. Anyone using

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violence is as much a threat to Pakistan as anyone who uses it

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against the sun. -- Pakistan. Exporting violence, the Pakistanis

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have eroded their own security, it has been said. They are not separate

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the connected. It was said they have undermined their international

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credibility and undermined their economic well-being. He said that

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just before or just after you came into the Foreign Ministry. Nothing

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has changed. A lot has changed. I don't think that is looking at what

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has happened in Pakistan and following what Pakistan has been

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doing. A massive operation has been launched. Soldiers are dying. This

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has been going on for years. Let's talk internal staff. In terms of the

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terror threat, the events we outside of Pakistan, such as the horrible

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school attack, and then recently the Lahore attack where civilians and

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many Christians but many others too were targeted at Easter just this

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last is. There are hundreds of people dying as a result of your

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state's failure to get on top of the violent extremists inside your own

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country. I am always impressed with how quick you article as a failure.

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The task at hand is very large. -- you are to call us. I am always

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excepting the fact that there are some unintended consequences of

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people trained on our soil who were trained with funding from other

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countries, it left a deep void. There was no exit strategy. For us

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there was no exit strategy. That has brought the threat of terrorism to

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Pakistani soil. It is a living thread. To deny the fact that since

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2014, and before that in 2008, the incidence of terrorism have not

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decreased. It is a luxury you might be able to afford, but I can't deny

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that. The terrorist incidents in Pakistan have actually reduced by

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50%. That means a lot. That means hundreds more Pakistanis are living

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today and not dying because of terrorism as opposed to before. If

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you want to say that is nothing, to me that is a bot. My civilians being

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able to live. You cannot deny what this war has done to extremism and

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to propel extremists out of Pakistan. The way drone strikes were

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used in Pakistani territory with or without our government acquiescence

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has a lot to do with its rivers and... I did want to talk briefly

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about joint strikes. You decide with or without Pakistani acquiescence.

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-- you just said. There are CIA Zika papers that show there was

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cooperation between the American CIA and the Pakistani government on the

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targeting, the use of these trends. You were Foreign Minister. Are you

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now prepared to tell the truth and say yes, we worked with the

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Americans on the joins. Yes, but I am prepared to tell the truth, not

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what you want me to say. Between 2011 and 2013, there was no copper

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operation between Pakistan and America, because the relationship

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had already gone sour. For six months, the US refused to apologise.

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These are the realities we were living in. The killing of a summer

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Bin Laden. I admit as president Asif Ali Zardari has admitted in his

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memoirs and later in interviews that the US and Pakistan were cooperating

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on who to strike. That is interesting. You are saying by the

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time I came into power and was Foreign Minister, our relationship

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with the US was fundamentally different. It was. You taught at the

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time about wanting to move away from a strong and dependent relationship

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in the United States and wanted to focus on the neighbourhood and on

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the region, India and Afghanistan, developing ties with them. I

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remember you saying that. Where are we today? The Pakistani government

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is still hoping to receive eight F-16 fighter jets from the United

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States were stuck the Pakistani government in the last five or six

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years has received something like $8 billion of US aid and development

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assistance. Is the Pakistani government keen on a partnership

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with the United States or not? I am confused.

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It wants a realistic expectation of and with the United States.

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Historically, Pakistan has had unrealistic expectations of the US

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and I will say that on your show as well. Pakistan has wanted to solve

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regional problems via Washington or London, not inculcating relations it

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should in the region. As you have in the EU et cetera. We have tried to

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change that. For that, if there is a record of that, we have tried to

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normalise trading relations with India, which come until our time,

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was considered something which would only happen if it came from India.

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We have tried to change it. To warm up the relationship without solving

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Kashmir. That has failed. India is accusing you, if I can save...

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(CROSSTALK). Jumping to failure is interesting. I look at the facts.

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Earlier this year there was a terror attack on an air base in India which

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India land on Pakistan as a result... Not on the state but on

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elements within Pakistan. Let me tell you where the success is. What

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did Pakistan do? The old Pakistan would say it did not happen and

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India is making this up against Pakistan. The new Pakistan says if

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there is evidence proving people inside Pakistan used... Used

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wherewithal to do this, share with us and we will be part of the

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investigation. The whole investigation happened, Pakistani

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people went through the entire records, so things have changed. You

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said two interesting things after the horrible school attack at the

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end of 2014. You are no longer Foreign Minister. You were still a

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political player. An important voice in their people's party. You said

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the intelligence architecture of this country is archaic and must be

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changed. You also said the Madras, the religious schools which have

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flourished for far too long, they must impart the real peaceful

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teachings of Islam or if they cannot, will not, they must be

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closed down. What has changed? I am not in government to answer that

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question as I could if I was in government, but clearly post the

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Army Public School attack, the architecture as it appears mightn't

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have changed and it needs to change. It doesn't seem to have changed at

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all to an outsider like me. And to me to be fair. We have not achieved

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what I had put out as a way forward at all. The intelligence agencies

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are probably now speaking to each other more than they have before,

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which is not great. I won't say we deserve brownie points. On the

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Madras, it has been a serious problem. Funded by Saudi Arabia,

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those who want to encourage that brand of divisive Islam. And that

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has not done us any favours -- Madrasses. I will not defend it. The

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state has to be more in control of knowledge which is imparted to

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children than it is today. Why has the state failed for so many years

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to listen to people outside who have delivered that message? I think the

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state's inability to be able to react to so many challenges is

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limited. Then Uvini feel like you are saying, you know what, the state

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is dysfunctional to the point of being a failed state. How many times

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can you see these problems are to be before...? The fact is, I don't

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think we need to explain that in a developing country the state

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structures are very different to those in yours and even in your

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country, sometimes dealing with challenges like this is an uphill

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task. I won't try to justify it here, I won't try to paint with a

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happy brush the reality of the state. Understand, the civilian

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architecture has not been there for a long time. Here is what you said

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about that in December 2015 and I wonder if it still applies and how

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worried we should be. The military still plays a bloated role in

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Pakistan's politics. You said the Prime Minister has much less freedom

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than he ought to have. Again, from my vantage point, I need to look at

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the trajectory my country is following. I need to see the

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civilian role and responsibilities are being taken more than they were

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ten years back. From that point of view I think the fact we have had

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two democratic regimes, one after the other, institutions are being

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built. That civilian role... Civilians are taking responsibility.

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To what extent is that rule and roll real or to what extent is there, to

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coin a phrase often used in Turkey, still a deep state behind the

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elected politicians which is really making key decisions when it comes

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to all we have discussed today, international relations and national

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security? -- role. No more than they have done in the US. Believe me, I

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thought they were a country where the military also had if not a

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bloated role, even a bigger role. You think in the United of America,

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the military runs the system more thoroughly than it does in Pakistan?

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Yes. Equally. That is an extraordinary thing to say. The

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overall establishment, including the military in the United States of

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America, has a huge role to play. And I can tell you, whoever is

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president of the US has little to do with US policy in terms of War and

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peace. -- war. That is a really interesting insight into the way

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it... I guess you are part of the Pakistani establishment and the way

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you think. Let me talk more about the establishment. Recent times, the

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Pakistani media has been full of stories coming out of the Panama

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Papers. Revelations about offshore tax havens held by many powerful

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people, including powerful people in Pakistan. The family of the Prime

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Minister, associates of Benazir Bhutto, Benazir Bhutto herself in

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2001 had some connection with an offshore account. There is cynicism

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about the level of corruption inside the elite. Do you understand that?

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Of course I understand. It is a realistic and a real and

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well-deserved sense within the Pakistani people. Because, you know,

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we haven't managed this country as well as we should have. And I think

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all of these things will bring in much more transparency within how we

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govern, and this is a process all countries have to follow.

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Unfortunately, in cases of countries like Pakistan, these forces have not

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been given the time I typically a country like yours or a European

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country would have gotten to reach the point because state structures

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have not developed the way they should have. It is interesting that

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you said we, are you speaking on the Pakistani elite? Re-buy not know,

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the audience, but your father was a leading politician, he had a seat in

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parliament, and then when the rules changed and could not sit because he

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did not have a university place, the seat was granted to you -- we might.

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That seems to be symbolic of the dynastic, feudal nature of politics

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which you would perhaps agree with me needs to change. Absolutely. It

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is changing. With respect, your foreign mill a star at 34, you

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represent the success of the old elite -- Foreign Minister. My family

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name is much more well-known because of my uncle, who could not win an

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election for the last 35 years, as a poster my father, who works for the

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people and is therefore elected. He does work for it. It is

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interesting, when people act as if, just because of my name, my family

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name is more well-known because of an uncle who served as governor in

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Punjab, who has not got elected into any five years. You won't like it

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but I will quote you another member of the dynastic tradition who is

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self-aware. Making someone like Miss Khar send a message to young people

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that the only way into politics in Pakistan is through families. I come

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back to this point, if Pakistan is to change on many different levels,

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that has to be part of the change. That change cannot be enforced or

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just sort of brought within years. It will take a few years, perhaps a

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few decades. What is the state doing to inculcate that change or to bring

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that change? It is reserving 30% of parliamentary seats for women who

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don't come from elite families like mine but average backgrounds as

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nominated by political parties. The state is insuring 10% of

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administration posts are given to women. They don't have to come from

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an elitist background like mine but from normal, average, you know,

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middle-class type of backgrounds. This is the role the state is

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playing to be able to make sure that every woman gets a chance. I except

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the fact that I come from a very privileged... I would not call it

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elitist but from a privileged background. I except the fact I came

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into politics because of who my father was. I accept all about. I

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say that does not deny the fact that things are changing in Pakistan --

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that. With that message we have to end, but Hina Rabbani Khar, thank

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you so much for being on HARDtalk.

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