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He warned the country could return to all-out war. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
A surge of violence there has claimed close | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. | :00:00. | :00:14. | |
In recent years, there has been plenty of heated debate | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
about the relationship between Islam and extremism. | :00:18. | :00:19. | |
Much of the fiercest commentary has come from outside the religion, | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
but increasingly there have been calls for change | :00:25. | :00:26. | |
My guest has one of the most controversial voices | :00:27. | :00:36. | |
Raheel Raza is a Pakistan-born Canadian human rights | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
activist who co-founded the Muslim Reform Movement. | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You to talk her language? | :00:43. | :01:23. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You use the language of war. A couple of | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
years ago, you wrote Canada is under attack for. | :01:31. | :01:30. | |
Is the enemy? The enemy is the radical extremists, the jihadist | :01:31. | :01:40. | |
is, who have declared war against the West. It is not just me saying | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
it. You have Islamic State, Taliban, they have said they are | :01:46. | :01:55. | |
against Western values and they will destroy it the West any way they | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
can. We have seen the results of that, or you have to do is take a | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
look at what has happened across the world from Madrid to Brussels to | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
Ottawa, it's all there. San Bernardino. There was a time when we | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
were sitting and working on the Muslim reform movement, the night | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
that San Bernardino happened. The interesting thing is that you talk | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
as if there are not just a few hundred hard-core man and possibly | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
women, you talk as though this is an enemy which incorporates anyone who | :02:28. | :02:36. | |
is a believer in political Islam, Sharia Law. You seem to believe that | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
all of those Muslims are the enemy. What I have said and what I believe | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
is that political Islam is the Allaby, that's why we call it ism | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
ism. Opposed to spiritual Islam, it is the difference between the Islam | :02:55. | :03:03. | |
of other and extreme Islam -- the enemy. Political Islam has a | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
purpose, that purpose is to Germany over the rest of the world. The | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
language of political Islam is embedded with terrorist propaganda, | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
you have said? It is. You just have to connect the dots to see that this | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
is what they have used. They have used violence as their tool to force | :03:22. | :03:31. | |
it on not just Muslims Muslims as well. What about the Somali born | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
writer and industry says, Islamic violence, that is what she calls it, | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
not Islamist violence but Islamic violence, is rooted not in social, | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
economic or political conditions or even in our, but rather in the very | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
foundation text of Islam itself? I don't agree. On some issues, she is | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
absolutely on the dot. We come from two different places. She is an ex- | :04:04. | :04:13. | |
Muslim, I am a Muslim and I want to bring about change from within. I | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
believe that political Islam is an ideology that has been rated on the | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
backs of billions of dollars going to be what hubby side. These are a | :04:24. | :04:36. | |
danger to spiritual Islam -- Wahabi. I would say she is maybe | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
more honest than you. She has lived away from the fate of her family and | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
wrote a book called heretic. She no longer writes as a Muslim. You claim | :04:45. | :04:52. | |
you are, but the words you issue suggest to me that you have the most | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
fundamental problems with the faith that you say you adhere to? I have | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
problems with Muslims, not with Islam. I have problems with the way | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
Muslims interpret, understand and implement their faith in their | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
lives. I am a follower of my face, so yes, there are questions and we | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
evolved to a point where we need to look at our scripture and faith and | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
decide that there is some stuff we need to leave behind. How well do | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
you know the scripture and the Koran? As I understand it you are | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
educated in Catholic school in Pakistan. To get deep into what | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
Islam is and what it should be, do you not need to be extraordinarily | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
well-placed in the scriptures and the Koran? One does not have to be a | :05:44. | :05:51. | |
Koran scholar to read it and understand it. There are many | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
understandings. There are many readings which give the historical | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
context. I think that one of the biggest problems for Muslims and | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
more Muslims is trying to understand the crime without historical context | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
and appreciating that it is not in the chronological order. It's not an | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
easy book to read. When you talk about Sharia Law, you are confident | :06:16. | :06:17. | |
that you can hold your own, theologically speaking, with the | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
lead scholars in Cairo, one of the great institutions of Islamic | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
scholarship? Absolutely not. As I said I am not in Islamic scholar. | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
When Sharia is mentioned in the Koran, it is referring to ethical | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
and moral guidance. In our Muslim reform movement and as our | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
organisation is facing, we don't want Sharia as a form of government | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
is living in the West. Muslims have not been able to quite figure out | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
what it is. I guess the question I am asking is one of credibility. Do | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
you think for most Muslims around the world, you and your message | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
carries real depth and credibility? That is hard to say. They have to | :07:07. | :07:17. | |
decide. I know that I am credible. The Islam I see today is not the | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
Islam I grew up with. I grew up in an Islam that was compassionate, | :07:23. | :07:31. | |
merciful and different. I have seen it go downhill and I have seen how | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
he it has been politicised. This is not rocket science. We see it in our | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
everyday life. You talk of diversity, it strikes me that there | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
is diversity within political Islam. You told me that as far as you're | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
concerned, political Islam is the problem. I have reported from many | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
different will some countries and met many branches of political | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
Islam. I am thinking of my conversations in commuter, a man who | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
held the reins of power after the Arab Spring. He was committed to | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
Sharia, but while he was leading Tunisia did not impose his will on | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
the nation undemocratically -- Tunisia. When the voice of the | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
people was that they no longer wanted him in power, he left. The | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
key word that use was in position. We don't want imposition of anyone | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
on the way they practise their faith. 1.7 billion Muslims practice | :08:30. | :08:40. | |
their faith today, in some ways there are 1.7 billion forms of | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
practising the faith. In the public square, that is where it counts. We | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
don't want to impose our version of Islam on anyone else. This is what | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
is happening through this packaged Islam which is being exported | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
through the Muslim brotherhood. But you are stereotyping to. You use | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
this phrase recently which struck me as extraordinarily stereotyping. He | :09:07. | :09:08. | |
talked about the Muslim reform movement sending a message to | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
generation Jihad. That is putting on a label to an entire generation of | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
Muslims. It is suggesting to them that they need to move into the 21st | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
century. The Muslim reform movement says that Muslims would like to come | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
into the 21st century as opposed to living under a caliphate in the | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
seventh century. It's a message to our youth, they are the future of | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
tomorrow. They are the ones are being radicalised to fight with | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
Islamic State. Obviously they are getting ideas from somewhere. The | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
Muslim movement wants to further this, it has a declaration that says | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
that this is what we are looking at if we want a reform. We want to | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
reform the way Muslims implement and practice their faith. We're not | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
looking to reform the faith itself. We are not looking to reform Islam. | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
That is why it is called the Muslim reform movement. You say we are not | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
looking to impose, simply to develop a new way of thinking. You are | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
Canadian, you have been for a long time. I assume you embrace the | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
values of Canada, including tolerance, openness, free | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
expression, democracy? Yes. If you don't mind me saying, you appear to | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
be personally extraordinarily intolerant of certain forms of | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
expression inside Canada today. I would say that one should always be | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
intolerant of hate, wouldn't you? Not talking about hate, talking | :10:52. | :11:00. | |
about the full face veil. Some Muslim women want to wear this, just | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
as they do in other nations. You have declared that it is entirely | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
unacceptable and Canada must ban it? It was actually originally Jack | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
Straw who put the cat among the pigeons. Yes, I did a lot of | :11:16. | :11:24. | |
research and study on it and I suggested it to the government. I | :11:25. | :11:34. | |
wanted it banned. The push for it is not because it is a religious act | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
requirement that it is not a religious requirement. It is freedom | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
of expression. The people who want where wear at our defenders of | :11:49. | :11:50. | |
freedom of expression and human rights. This is a fundamental | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
question of freedom. It is nothing to do with religion. When we wave | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
these freedoms against the safety and security of the country, it is a | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
safety issue. A health issue. A communication issue. We studied this | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
and wrote a letter with five points to the previous government, who then | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
banned it at citizenship ceremonies. The later government would act on | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
that. This is what a democracy is about, to express a concern and have | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
debate and discussion about what is best for the country and community. | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
Do you worry that you are inadvertently fuelling a form of | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
racism? It has been said that this is nothing to do with gender | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
equality, and everything to do with racism. How are you liberating women | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
by criminalising their clothing? This existed before the niqab issue | :12:56. | :13:05. | |
was on the table. I don't think what I say or do fuels racism and | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
bigotry. What fuels that is when Muslims don't address the issues | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
head on. In Canada, more than 52% of Canadians that they don't like the | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
face coverage and consider it a mask. That is what average Canadians | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
are saying. If it is not brought out to the public, that is when people | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
have a knee-jerk reaction. It is no good quoting the polling evidence | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
about what a majority of Canadian people think, there is such a thing | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
as the tyranny of majority. The whole essence of arguments about | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
freedom is defence of the minority. The few Muslim women in Canada who | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
want of way a niqab, they should have that right. If the Canadians | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
are you. It is, but a Canadian value is also accountability and the | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
safety and security of Canada comes first. This is the main issue that | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
we are talking about. The problem with arguing about security, we have | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
seen this in the United States recently with the declarations of | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
Donald Trump, you can use the security arguments to develop all | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
sorts of propositions which appear to undermine freedoms. You are going | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
in that direction yourself, you have argued for restrictions on | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
immigration from what you call Kheira producing countries. Can you | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
define and? A country where Muslims live. So | :14:32. | :14:44. | |
Muslim nations at her producing countries. Not all, but in Pakistan | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
I know there are training camps for radicals and I know for a fact that | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
there are Canadian youth who have gone and taken training and have | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
gone back. So this is not something that is rocket science. We know for | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
a fact that there are some countries in which there are training for | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
radicals taking place. To be clear about it, you want your own | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
government in Canada to put on moratorium on all immigration from | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
Muslim countries. Until they can sort out the problem. So you have to | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
understand that with the work we do both with security and with the | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
government we have to understand that that extremists and jihadist | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
are not living outside the western countries, they are right there as | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
well. And they have come as emigrants, maybe, or as visitors. | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
What we need to do is clean up what is happening inside and moratoria | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
means not ban but just temporarily. Well, it is a band, it is a band for | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
a limited amount of time which you have refused to be fine. You are | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
sounding an awful lot like Donald Trump. Do you embrace that | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
comparison? No, but in a different way. He has a cruel way of saying it | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
but I guess I would stand behind what I would say, that we do need to | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
do that. We need to do that... Do you think that would for one second | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
stand up in a Canadian court of law? The notion of banning all | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
immigration from Muslim nations? I'm not trying to make that a legal | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
issue. Canada is a country of laws, where the independence of the courts | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
as one of the most central pillars pillars of your democracy. I put | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
this idea out so we can debate this in public. Maybe in a democracy they | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
will decide it is not good for Canada and that is fine. I am not a | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
government official, I am not a policymaker, I am a grassroots | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
activist. My job is to light a fire under the feet of our leaders in our | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
religious leaders to bring about change. The current status quo is | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
not something that I want my future generations of children and | :16:42. | :16:43. | |
grandchildren to live with. But lighting fires is a dangerous | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
activity, because you end up burning things, perhaps things of value, | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
including trusts. Another of your propositions, close all mosques for | :16:54. | :16:55. | |
three months to have intense scrutiny on the Imams and their | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
sermons. This you say is not an abuse of religious freedom, it is | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
simply to ensure that religion can be free. Again, would that stand up | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
for a moment in a Canadian court of law? Perhaps if push comes to shove | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
it might. We have gone to mosques and heard hate speech there, we have | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
gone to mosques and her... But not all mosques, you are suggesting | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
closing all mosques for three months just because one or two have had | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
Imams preaching... It is not one or two. It is much more than one or two | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
back. Let us acknowledge that many of the messages of disloyalty, many | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
of the messages of hate, have come from the mosque pulpit and from | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
Islamic institutions are so closing a mosque for three months is not a | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
problem. For Muslims, they don't have to go and pray in the mosque. | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
They can offer their five-time sprayers, anywhere, any time, any | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
place. But in the United Kingdom and many other countries there is a | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
similar debate about how best to work with Muslim communities, to | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
ensure that extremism, where it is present, is rooted out. Do you think | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
that your approach is going to build bridges, is going to reach out and | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
win the confidence of Muslim communities, or is it simply going | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
to foster mistrust and even hatred? You will be surprised to know how | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
many Muslims actually follow what I say, and are part of this movement. | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
They are interested in bringing about change, and if it means | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
closing mosques for three months it is not the end of the world. It may | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
solve the problem. Really? Tell me, how many Muslims in Canada have | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
responded positively to the idea that all mosques be closed for three | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
months. Dozens have! Darzins? There are many millions of Muslims in | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
Canada, so doesn't have supported you. I don't do a poll after what I | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
write, I don't do a poll after what -- to see what was and is about it. | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
There is too much work to do in exposing the ideology of the | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
Islamist rule. They are growing faster than we are whereas we are in | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
a situation where we can't even use the terminology that this is | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
stemming from some form of the misuse of the faith. So we have to | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
have the dialogue. We have had the discussion. And that is what I do, | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
is put it out there so we can have this conversation. Well, you put it | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
out there and you say that you want to light fires. I just wonder how | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
effective it is. One other issue which you have made a big stand on | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
and which again I would like to hear whether you feel it has been at | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
effective, is your insistence that in your version of a reformed | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
Islam, women should be free to preach in the mosque, and indeed | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
they should be free to preach not just to women but the mixed groups | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
as well, essentially to get rid of gender demarcation inside the | :19:51. | :19:52. | |
mosque. You have on occasion preach to yourself to mixed groups. Do you | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
have any leveraged for your message, do you think? Yes. Everything that I | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
do and everything that I did has a reason for it. I led the mixed | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
gender pray not because I want to become an Imam or take over the job | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
of an Imam, I did it because there was an appalling lack of gender | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
equality in the mosques. It was a men's club. The women were relegated | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
to the basement and sometimes if there was they couldn't even come | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
and pray there so the message was to come and say that we are spiritually | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
equal. This is what my faith tells me. And it did have an effect. A | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
month after I led the prayers, the mosque, two mosques, put out | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
statements and press releases saying they would look into this gender | :20:35. | :20:36. | |
issue and they would make sure that women can come into the main | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
section. Today there is a women's only mosque in Copenhagen, there is | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
right here in London, there is one in Los Angeles and when I get the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
funding I hope to have one in Canada. So there is a role over a | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
sect, there may be a knee-jerk reaction to begin with, but in the | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
end people talk about it and there is change. Nobody could accuse you | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
of not taking these issues head on and challenging Muslims around the | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
world, and you have taken your movement from Canada into an | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
international context. But it comes at a price. There are people who | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
want to shut you up. Of course. How frightened you feel by some of the | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
reaction you get? I don't think about it. And the irony is that when | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
they call with death threats or calling me to profess how much they | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
hate me, they never leave a phone number where I could call them back | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
to have a debate or a discussion. Have you had death threats? Yes, I | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
have had a death threat. Have you talked to the police about these | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
things? The police in Canada know about it. I have a fatwa. Who issued | :21:43. | :21:51. | |
a fatwa? Saudi cleric. Is incredible? Here you seem to be | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
smiling at me and suggesting you can live with this but we know from | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
Salman Rushdie and others as well that went fatwas are issued they are | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
serious business. Here is the difference, it is all about the | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
money. The fatwa on Salman Rushdie's had comes on the back a | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
lot of money. Mine is just people calling and saying they don't like | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
me and if they want to me, and get rid of me and bury me, they can't | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
bury the issues. -- if they want to kill me. You said that in 2014 you | :22:23. | :22:32. | |
are the -- I have the honour of receiving a fatwa. I plan to become | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
number one in the world. You are loving this, in a way. It is OK, it | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
is there. I may as well embrace it. I'm not going to stop saying what I | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
do, I'm not going to stop writing what I do. I want to push the | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
envelope so Muslims all over the world can start talking about these | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
issues. They don't have to like what they say. I gave up being popular a | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
long time ago. What I want to do is follow Truth and Justice which is | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
what my faith tells me to do and let people work it out. You are | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
ultimately still Muslim. Unlike others, you remain inside the faith. | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
Do you not worry that as more and more politicians and activists, many | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
on the far right, it has to be said, talk about Muslims in the way that | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
you have talked about political Islam, connecting all the time to | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
terrorism, do you not worry that there is a significant rise in a | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
phobia, we have seen it in the United Kingdom, we have seen it in | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
France, you could be accused of fostering that yourself. -- rise in | :23:37. | :23:44. | |
Islam phobia. I believe it is not just about speaking to the | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
converted. I speak in places where there is a lot of hate against | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
bosoms and I think when they hear us and speak out it changes the | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
dynamics and therefore I prefer to keep on speaking. Yes, there is | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
racism and bigotry. I do not deny that. It existed before 9/11, it | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
exists now, and we have to tackle it head on. It is a terrible thing to | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
have racism and bigotry. However, what I say does not necessarily | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
found the flames of racism because people appreciate Muslims speaking | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
out about the reality of the issues. We have two end there. Raheel Raza, | :24:17. | :24:23. | |
thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. My pleasure. Thank you | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
very much indeed. | :24:28. | :24:30. |