Arlene Foster, Northern Ireland First Minister HARDtalk


Arlene Foster, Northern Ireland First Minister

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk.

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I'm Sarah Montague.

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Almost everyone agrees there should not be a return to police checks

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and custom posts on the border between Northern Ireland

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and the Republic.

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But how else should the border be managed once the UK has left the EU?

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And particularly, if it leaves the single market?

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My guest on HARDtalk today is Northern Ireland's First Minister,

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Arlene Foster.

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Unlike most people here in Northern Ireland,

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she voted for Brexit.

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So how does she see it working and how would she ensure that it

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doesn't mean a return to the divisions of the past?

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Arlene Foster, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you.

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How do you see the border operating once the UK has left the EU?

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Well, I think since the referendum has happened, there have been many

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discussions, a lot of them talking about the border and about the fact

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that we had a common travel area before our membership

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of the European Union with the Republic of Ireland.

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I'm glad to say that colleagues in the Republic of Ireland,

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the Government at Westminster and ourselves are all at one

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in relation to the common travel area, that we want to see movement

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across the two islands to be as open as we possibly can make it,

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whilst respecting, of course, the result that took place on 23rd

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June.

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That means trying to manage that border in a very

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practical, pragmatic way.

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All these problems, which I notice the Maltese Prime Minister,

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who is about to take on the EU presidency describes as "some

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of the most sensitive issues of the negotiation",

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do you agree with that?

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Well, first of all I welcome the fact that he recognises

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there is a unique situation on the island of Ireland that has

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to be dealt with and I think it is good that the person

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who is going to take over the presidency of the EU has put it

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right at the top of the agenda.

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I think that's good and it is a recognition

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that we have a unique set of circumstances here.

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OK, but they would be easier if we stayed a member

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of the single market.

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Is that what would you like to see?

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Well, of course, we have said that we want -

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this is reflected in our letter to the Prime Minister,

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which myself and the Deputy First Minister here in Northern Ireland,

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sent back in August, that we wanted the maximum amount

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of access to the single market.

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We do.

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Does that mean having full access to the single market.

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We know probably better than anybody else about negotiations

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and how negotiations happen.

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So, therefore, we have to enter in a realistic frame of mind that

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yes we would like to see the maximum amount of access to the single

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market but we do realise that the Prime Minister is heading

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into a negotiation and therefore she will have to make compromises

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in and around different areas.

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What we want to ensure is that she has a full understanding

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of what goes on here in Northern Ireland and the impacts

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that each of her decisions will have.

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But that letter, you will know well, an SDLP Assembly Member said

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the letter is like a pro-Remain information leaflet because of all

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the things you were asking for in it and yet you campaigned for Brexit.

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So, I wonder, when you were campaigning, did you intend

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that the UK leave the single market?

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What I intended in campaigning, in respect of Brexit,

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was the fact that I believed it was better for the United Kingdom

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to be outside the European Union.

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Why do I say this?

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I say that for a number of different reasons.

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I'm asking a different question...

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But you have to put it in context.

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Part of the single market.

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And that's what I'm particularly interested in.

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Because you will know, that decision, so much flows

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from it, not least what happens to the border.

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Well, interestingly we had a discussion about this very issue

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at the British-Irish Council very recently.

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Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and indeed the crown dependencies

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of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man and we all came together

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to say and we agreed that we wanted the maximum access

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to the single market.

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Why do I keep talking about maximum access?

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Because I know the Prime Minister will have some very difficult

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decisions to take and we certainly want to support her in making those

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decisions but we also want her to recognise the history

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and geography of Northern Ireland and how we are different

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from Scotland, Wales and England and all of this and we need those

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circumstances taken into account.

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Because you are wanting special status?

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No, we are not wanting special status.

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I think we are wanting our history and geography recognised not just

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by the United Kingdom Government, not just by Dublin, which I think

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they both do, but also for the European Union as well,

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and for them to understand what is going on.

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I think that the Maltese Prime Minister has already recognised

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that.

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But it is such a strange thing.

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Perhaps your position would be more understandable if you had

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voted for Remain.

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But you didn't.

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Unlike the majority of people in Northern Ireland,

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you voted for Brexit, yet here you are saying -

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oh, special status, we want to be closer to the EU...

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I'm not saying special status.

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...than the UK is likely to end up.

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I'm not saying special status at all.

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All I'm saying is we voted as a nation...

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You used the word "unique" three times.

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There is a difference between uniqueness and special status.

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I think language is very important in all of this dialogue.

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I think the European Union recognises that we have a unique

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set of circumstances.

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We are the only part of the United Kingdom

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with a land border.

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Put that on top of the fact that we have a very distinct history

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here in terms of relationships between Northern Ireland

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and the Republic of Ireland and actually we have a very strong

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set of relationships between ourselves and the Dublin Government

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at the moment.

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However it plays out, do you accept that it is the end

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of a fully open border between the North and the Republic?

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I think there are ways to deal with that.

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There are many people who come to the island of Ireland

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at the minute and move between Northern Ireland

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and the Republic of Ireland and that's the way we want

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it to continue.

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But there are ways to deal with that.

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And, of course, it is around access to services.

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So people can visit the island through the common travel area,

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but they won't have the same access to service that is they have

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at the moment.

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OK, but you will know what is critical is what happens

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on that border.

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For example, is it inevitable that there will have to be customs

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posts and border checks?

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Not in the traditional sense I don't think it is inevitable.

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I think there are ways to deal with that through using our

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technology, using data, making sure we have our systems

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in place that we can share information between

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the United Kingdom and Ireland and the fact...

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How?

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How?

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Because you mentioned this before, a technological border.

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I know I did and I think this is something that is gaining currency.

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Even before the vote on 23rd June, negotiations and discussions

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were ongoing between the United Kingdom Government

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and the Government in the Republic of Ireland about the common travel

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area and how it could be secure outside of Schengen.

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Those discussions are continuing and I think there is a very good way

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we can deal with the border, make it a technological border

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and make it that we have all the information...

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What does that mean?

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You will know if somebody travels, perhaps they fly into Dublin

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and they need a job and they head North...

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Who's?

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Well, they won't be able to head North and get a job

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unless they are part of the controlled immigration agreed

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between the United Kingdom Government.

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It will be the paper work that will stop that.

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Yes, it will be the paper work that will stop that.

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The Prime Minister will agree what our migration levels will be

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in relation to what we need.

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Someone is running a small business.

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Strictly speaking they should face tariffs as they head south

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across the border.

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Is there nothing to stop them from heading south and into the EU,

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from moving goods, selling them?

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Again if they are doing it legally, they will have to provide the paper

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work at the end point in relation to how they are selling

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their product into the European Union.

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So there will be a way to deal with that as well.

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The whole point is that we are using innovation and methods

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that we didn't have when the so-called borders

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of the past were in place.

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For many people who live along the border in Northern Ireland,

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they never felt that there was a real border there

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because those of us who lived through the terrorist campaign

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of the '70s, '80s and '90s, the border was pretty

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porous even then.

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So this whole conversation about a return to the borders

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of the past, is a little bit difficult for those of us who lived

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on the border to take into account.

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But what there was at that time, is that there were police checks

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and a border...

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For very different reasons.

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Indeed and that's what people are nervous about.

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Why would we have police checks and military borders

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there when we don't have the terrorist threat

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that we had in the '70s, '80s and '90s?

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When you talk about a technological border, are you talking about,

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for example, a gantry with cameras, so that lorries will be picked up?

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Their number plates read?

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I'm reflecting on the fact that there are many land borders

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across Europe at the moment and there are many ways

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in which they deal with the trade between the different areas

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and so they do deal in technological borders.

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And they do deal in paperwork that's settled long before it gets

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to the border.

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But they also deal in customs checks...

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Those are sporadic.

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But between Norway and Sweden they have customs checks and lorries

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are meant to stop.

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Is that what would happen, lorries passing the border

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would have to stop?

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No, we don't envisage lorries will be stopping on a day and daily

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basis but there will have to be some checks of some nature that takes

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place on a sporadic basis.

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For many it is difficult to see and you have a job explaining how

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it is even workable?

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Well, because it will be settled between the United Kingdom

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Government, the Republic of Ireland's Government and Europe.

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But what I think is very important is that we are at one in what I call

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the triangular relationship between Belfast, Dublin and London

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in terms of the common travel area, that people do not want

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to see barriers raised.

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The Northern Ireland Secretary, James Brokenshire has talked

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about effectively moving the border of the UK to align with the border

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of the Republic of Ireland.

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And effectively having control by Irish border control.

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Is that something that you see as a possible way forward,

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to protect the common travel area?

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Well, I think, as I said, they were speaking about this long

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before the European Union exit vote was taken.

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How do we protect ourselves as two islands against terrorism?

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How do we protect ourselves in other ways, and the way they were talking

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about was using the common travel area and having that special

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relationship between the United Kingdom and Republic

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of Ireland recognised by them working very closely together.

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So that is the way forward as far as you are concerned?

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And of course this would have to be accepted by the other Member States

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in Europe and this is the trick, as it were.

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Because, of course we can't enter into negotiations around any of this

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until Article 50 is triggered and the Republic's Government

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are very keen to point out they are not in negotiations

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at the moment, they are just in discussions.

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This idea of moving the border.

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Why should any of the other 26 Member States accept that idea?

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Afterall, it is not something that's open to those in the South

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of the EU, who have their own battles with migration.

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You know, there is a lot of talk about how the UK is going to do

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business in Europe but of course the reverse is true as well.

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Because, for the Republic of Ireland, Great Britain,

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in particular, is their key market.

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So they need to be able to protect that as well.

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And there has a little bit of that reflected in the conversation

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going on between the Polish Prime Minister and our own Prime Minister.

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I noticed that over this past few days.

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OK but the Poles are arguably very easy to win over,

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compared with some of the other Member States within the EU.

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Well, you know you are talking to someone who has been engaged

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in negotiation and who has been engaged in the political process

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probably all of my political life.

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So people will be hard at the start of a negotiation,

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we all understand that, but, you know, real politic will come

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into position and people will have to be pragmatic and look

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at the future for everybody.

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And this idea of moving the border so that effectively Ireland

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is controlling the UK border, for those who said Brexit

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is all about taking back control of our borders,

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it completely flies in the face of that, doesn't it,

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another country would be controlling the border?

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No because you would only do it in the terms we are talking about,

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if we had full disclosure and openness between the two

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Sovereign governments, as to how it was going to work.

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I think it is a very interesting concept.

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I think it is a way to deal with the very particular

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circumstances of Northern Ireland, in terms of history and geography

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but of course I do recognise we are heading into a negotiation

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and there will be tweaks and innovation and flexibilities

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that none of us have thought of to date.

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That's what happens in a negotiation process.

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We all start off with the historic backgrounds as to what should happen

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but then once you enter into the negotiation,

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people have to compromise and accommodate each other and then

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we end up with the finished project.

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You have said that Northern Ireland is going to be front and centre

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of the negotiations, but James Brokenshire,

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representing Northern Ireland, is only allowed in the room

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when Northern Ireland is being discussed.

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Is that good enough?

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Well, he is a Cabinet minister but we are of course engaged

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directly with the Prime Minister and we made that very clear right

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from the beginning, that we would have to be engaged

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directly with her.

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We are doing that through the joint ministerial committee both

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at plenary level and European exit level and at European exit level

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and of course I'm speaking to the Prime Minister myself

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directly as well.

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How frequently?

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And with David Davis as well.

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Well, we haven't started the negotiations yet but it will,

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of course, become more frequent, once the negotiations start.

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But you are satisfied with the access and the involvement

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you have been promised.

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I have no reason - any time I want to speak to any

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of the Government ministers I get access, so there

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is no difficulty there.

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You will know there are plenty who are very concerned about what it

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could mean, it as plays out.

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Not least the Irish Prime Minister, Enda Kenny, who talks about common

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membership of the EU being part of the glue that holds

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the transition process together.

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Well, of course the peace that we have here in

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Northern Ireland has been hard won by those of us who live

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here and who have been through many of the different

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political processes.

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And we now have a very stable set of institutions here in

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Northern Ireland.

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And whilst the European Union were not at the heart of that,

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I would certainly not take away from the fact that the Union have

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been supportive in terms of funding, for example.

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We've probably accessed more funding than other parts

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of the United Kingdom and that has been helpful,

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I have to say, that but in terms of the constitutional position,

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it remains the same under the Belfast agreement and indeed

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all of the successor agreements as well.

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Charles Litchfield, analyst with the Eurasia Group,

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the political risk consultancy firm, said, "I would be very worried

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about the fragile balance between the communities

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in the event of Brexit."

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Neil Jarman said, and he specialises in Northern Ireland conflict

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at Queen's University Belfast, says, "It would emphasise the difference

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between Britain and the Republic of Ireland."

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And that's the fear, that you are changing something

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that is such a delicate balance, that has been so hard fought for.

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Well, we have just spent, I don't know how many minutes

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talking about the fact that we have a very strong

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relationship with the Dublin government, that we may enter

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into negotiations around the common travel area.

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I don't think that the relationship between us and the Republic

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of Ireland is going to change.

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I think it has become quite mature, actually, over this past period

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of time when we have had a set of institutions

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here in Northern Ireland and it is about mutual respect.

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We do respect the Sovereign Government of the Republic

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of Ireland an we want them, likewise, to respect the fact that

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under the Belfast agreement and its successor agreements,

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that the people of Northern Ireland will decide in what direction

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we are going in terms of our membership of the United Kingdom

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and actually, if you look at the polls and one is always

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tempted not to look at the polls given this last year we've had,

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but if you look at the polls since the referendum there hasn't

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been any discernible shift in terms of whether people want to remain

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within the United Kingdom or go towards a United Ireland.

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It's back to the point about people and this is true of Scotland

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and true of Northern Ireland, people are trying to say

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that our membership of the European Union poll

0:17:030:17:06

is in some way linked to an independence poll.

0:17:060:17:11

It couldn't be further from the truth.

0:17:110:17:13

You say the people of Northern Ireland will decide.

0:17:130:17:15

Well, the people of Northern Ireland decided they want to be part

0:17:150:17:18

of the EU.

0:17:190:17:19

No, you see this is completely wrong.

0:17:190:17:21

We were asked a very specific question as to whether we wanted

0:17:210:17:25

the United Kingdom to remain within the European Union.

0:17:250:17:28

We weren't asked if we wanted Northern Ireland to remain

0:17:280:17:31

within the European Union and outside of the United Kingdom

0:17:310:17:35

because of course the most important trading block for us

0:17:350:17:38

in Northern Ireland is the UK.

0:17:380:17:41

67% of our goods are sold within the United Kingdom.

0:17:410:17:44

So the fact that there were so many, 56% of Northern Ireland voted

0:17:440:17:50

to Remain, more of your own constituency, it was an even

0:17:500:17:54

wider margin there.

0:17:540:17:56

Well, I live in a Nationalist constituency, of course.

0:17:560:17:58

But you are in this strange situation where -

0:17:580:18:01

and many people said it when that letter came out in August that

0:18:010:18:04

you signed with the Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness -

0:18:040:18:07

where you flagged up all the problems that arose

0:18:070:18:11

as a result of Brexit, problems which you had criticised

0:18:110:18:14

people for raising in advance.

0:18:140:18:17

How do you explain that?

0:18:170:18:19

No, I didn't.

0:18:190:18:20

What I said was - in the longer term and indeed I believe in the medium

0:18:200:18:24

term, as a nation, I think we will wholly benefit

0:18:240:18:27

from being outside of the European Union.

0:18:270:18:29

That doesn't take away from the fact that of course we will have

0:18:290:18:32

short-term challenges in terms of transition to leaving

0:18:320:18:34

the European Union.

0:18:340:18:35

Of course we will have those but I think in the medium to longer

0:18:350:18:39

term we'll benefit greatly from being outside the European Union.

0:18:390:18:42

My fear is...

0:18:420:18:43

But you are concerned that the border must not be

0:18:430:18:45

a catalyst for illegal activity.

0:18:450:18:47

That's correct.

0:18:470:18:48

My experience as a Trade Minister for over seven years,

0:18:480:18:51

pointed me in the direction of leaving the European Union,

0:18:510:18:53

because of the over regulation, because of the lack of innovation,

0:18:530:18:56

the lack of flexibility.

0:18:560:18:59

The state aid rules that were imposed upon us.

0:18:590:19:01

We have just very recently lost our international flight

0:19:010:19:05

because we weren't able to intervene, state aid would not

0:19:050:19:07

allow us to intervene from a European Union...

0:19:070:19:10

You are concerned about the border, we must allow access to unskilled

0:19:100:19:14

and skilled foreign labour there, must not be a loss of funding.

0:19:140:19:17

These are all fundamental things.

0:19:170:19:22

Well, would you blame me for being the First Minister

0:19:220:19:25

of Northern Ireland and not trying to get the maximum

0:19:250:19:27

out of negotiations?

0:19:270:19:28

I'm certainly not going to sell Northern Ireland short in terms

0:19:280:19:31

of what I want for the future I'm going to put out the maximum

0:19:310:19:35

in terms of the negotiation.

0:19:350:19:36

Have you ever had a moment of regret since the vote?

0:19:360:19:40

No, absolutely not.

0:19:400:19:41

Definitely not.

0:19:410:19:42

And that concern that the border could be a catalyst for illegal

0:19:420:19:46

activity, you do recognise it could be seen as a sort of gateway,

0:19:460:19:49

the point at which people could...

0:19:490:19:52

What we are talking about there is in terms of paramilitaries,

0:19:520:19:55

in terms of criminality.

0:19:550:19:57

We want to ensure we have a handle in relation to that matter.

0:19:570:20:01

Can I say we had a briefing from the senior management team

0:20:010:20:05

from the Police Service of Northern Ireland just last week

0:20:050:20:08

and they divulged to us that 43%, a very specific figure I have

0:20:080:20:11

to say, that 43% of organised crime now in Northern Ireland comes

0:20:110:20:14

from a foreign basis.

0:20:140:20:17

It comes because of free movement of people that has been able allow

0:20:170:20:20

those who want to practice their crime to come to Northern Ireland,

0:20:200:20:25

and to move very freely with the Republic of Ireland.

0:20:250:20:27

So we have to get a handle on that and we have to be able

0:20:270:20:32

to deal with that.

0:20:320:20:33

Just finally, I want to ask you about some comments

0:20:330:20:35

about your Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, who said wasn't

0:20:350:20:38

criticising his partners in Government, you, but he did

0:20:380:20:41

want to have a gentle conversation on how political unionism could do

0:20:410:20:44

more to help are reconciliation.

0:20:440:20:47

I wonder if you understand why he says that?

0:20:470:20:53

We have taken a decision, in Northern Ireland,

0:20:530:20:57

with some very clear rules around respect for the rule of law,

0:20:570:21:02

for the courts, for the democratic process that we are to move forward

0:21:020:21:06

on our own mandate and that's the only way we should move forward.

0:21:060:21:11

But if the Deputy First Minister is going to talk about reconciliation

0:21:110:21:16

and reaching out, then I think he also needs to think about some

0:21:160:21:19

of the actions that he has taken.

0:21:190:21:21

I mean he is talking about a push for a United Ireland.

0:21:210:21:26

He is talking to people from Hamas and then he may wonder why people

0:21:260:21:30

in the unionist community are a little reticent

0:21:300:21:33

about reaching out.

0:21:330:21:36

Well, I think there is a need for self-awareness.

0:21:360:21:38

Can I ask you - because many people may not know that your father

0:21:380:21:42

was targeted by the IRA and the man who was widely assumed to have been

0:21:420:21:46

involved, at his funeral, Martin McGuinness spoke,

0:21:460:21:49

praised him at his funeral.

0:21:490:21:51

We have this remarkable situation, you will remember it,

0:21:510:21:54

I think you were eight at the time.

0:21:540:21:56

I was, yes, that's right and then later when I was going to school,

0:21:560:22:00

because my bus driver was a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment,

0:22:000:22:03

the school bus was blown up when I was on it.

0:22:030:22:06

All of this is in the past, which is why I'm spurred on to make

0:22:060:22:10

Northern Ireland a different place for the future.

0:22:100:22:14

That doesn't mean that we don't remember what happened in the past,

0:22:140:22:17

because there are a great many people who not only live

0:22:170:22:20

with the scars of what happened in the past but actually live

0:22:200:22:23

with it every day.

0:22:230:22:24

How difficult is it for you then, every day, to work with people,

0:22:240:22:28

who were your enemy?

0:22:280:22:32

Well, it is difficult and there is no point in saying

0:22:320:22:35

otherwise and it is challenging, particularly when you see members

0:22:350:22:37

of Sinn Fein meeting a terrorist organisation,

0:22:370:22:41

such as Hamas.

0:22:410:22:43

It does bring, for a lot of people in Northern Ireland,

0:22:430:22:46

including myself, back memories of what happened here in the '70s

0:22:460:22:49

and '80s but I use that energy to make sure we don't go back

0:22:490:22:53

to the past, to make sure we have a better Northern Ireland

0:22:530:22:57

for our children and that we have a very strong,

0:22:570:23:00

solid economy that is outward looking, innovative,

0:23:000:23:05

and part of the United Kingdom that looks out to the world.

0:23:050:23:09

You have admitted that in the past, you used to feel bitter about it.

0:23:090:23:13

Are you ever now?

0:23:130:23:14

No, I'm not now.

0:23:140:23:16

I think obviously as a teenager, when you go through what has

0:23:160:23:19

happened in the past, I think we all go through different

0:23:190:23:22

feelings at that time.

0:23:220:23:24

I mean if someone was coming to murder your father and then blow

0:23:240:23:28

you up on a school bus, of course you would have particular

0:23:280:23:31

views of these people but we have all signed up to very clear

0:23:310:23:34

guidelines in terms of supporting the police service, supporting

0:23:340:23:37

the rule of law and what we must do now is make sure we don't go back

0:23:370:23:42

to the rule of the past.

0:23:420:23:43

And those who are worried about divisions as a result

0:23:430:23:46

of the Brexit process, what do you say to them?

0:23:460:23:49

I say to them that we are very committed to make sure

0:23:490:23:52

that doesn't happen.

0:23:520:23:53

We have been through very difficult times before,

0:23:530:23:55

Northern Ireland, particularly since 2007.

0:23:550:23:58

We have come together.

0:23:580:23:59

We have negotiated our way through it.

0:23:590:24:01

We did that just last year, in fact, when we had a very difficult

0:24:010:24:05

situation and we will do it again because we don't want to go back

0:24:050:24:09

to the past.

0:24:090:24:10

What we want is a future for everyone who lives here.

0:24:100:24:13

Arlene Foster, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

0:24:130:24:20

Arlene Foster, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

0:24:200:24:47

It is all change for the weather.

0:24:470:24:48

After a decided chilly weekend temperatures are heading upwards.

0:24:480:24:51

Cold air will be drifting off to the north-east.

0:24:510:24:54

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