26/10/2015 House of Commons


26/10/2015

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Second reading bill. We are not returning to our live coverage where

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MPs are dealing with the finance bill which will enact most of the

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measures contained in the budget. Which the European Union abstracts

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us from solving. Just so happens that on this occasion, the

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honourable Lady deserves all of our congratulations for forcing this

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issue. I am glad that my name is on this motion. I have to say that

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those who are attacking us for signing this, probably are going

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some way to diminishing the support. We are here because we wish to take

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action which serves our constituents. I would like to read

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the news to some members of the House that approximately half of the

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people are women. I am happy to do the best that I can to represent

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them in this place. It seems to me that there are about five courses of

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action available. The first doing nothing, we are here today because

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some cause of action must be taken to solve the problem. They voted for

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a Labour amendment in the other place, Mr Deputy Speaker not for 100

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years as the House of Lords... This is a serious matter and I ask for

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you or the Speaker to give a statement to protect the rights of

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the elected representative, not just for us but the people of this

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country. It does take both houses to agree. I am sure will not be the end

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of the matter at this stage. First point of order, the very fact

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that the honourable gentleman has raised the point of order in the

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manner that he has, only underpins the importance of members of this

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House, the majority who are also opposed to these changes actually

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troop to the right voting lobby to make sure there is alignment of

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opinion between the two houses. Even though... Order! I am not going to

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go into a debate. I have given my answer to the member and I am sure

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we will all be on board. We have a lot of speakers to go. Mr Deputy

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Speaker, in a sending order of difficulty. There are four deemed

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the government can do, the first is to do with the amendment would

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impose. Which is to negotiate within the existing framework of the EU to

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deliver a 0 rating on tampons and sanitary products. The second thing,

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would be to renegotiate the power to set these taxes and that is

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something I will commend the member too minister -- I would command the

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Minister. The third thing they could do is to legislate notwithstanding

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European communities act which seems to me a bold, but one that I would

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support. I hope that the other members would support such a thing.

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Finally, it -- leave the European Union and decide for ourselves in

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this house. Decide for ourselves to handle the matters of taxation is

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that apply to our constituents. What I want to do this evening is listed

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extremely carefully to what my right honourable friend the Minister says.

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It is quite clear we cannot go on any longer saying that this issue of

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taxation on tampons and sanitary products is too difficult to push

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through all of the member states and the European Commission. Action must

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be taken, robust and dynamic. I have to say to those that criticise, we

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know we are taking the risk. The commission and Member States might

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well rise to the occasion, and unlikely as it seems they may rise

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to the occasion and solve the problem. Good on them, I would be

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very glad indeed to see no tax on these products across the European

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Union. I imagine he and some of his colleagues on the opposite benches

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would welcome the fact that the government will be able to come back

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and report to the House and February or March and tell us that whether

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other members of states or his poor negotiating patterns that have

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failed to bring this. Would he not welcome this transparency?

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The point I am making is this. This cannot go on any longer, and I hope

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what my honourable friend will say is that the government except the

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principle that tampons and sanitary products should be zero rated. I

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hope they will explain why it is that they are not in a position to

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bring such a measure before the House up he I hope my right

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honourable friend will commit to advancing this cause in the interest

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of women in the UK across Europe. In this year and going forward so we

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can get the whole thing cleared up as soon as possible. Hill it is a

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pleasure to follow the member from Wycombe. However he got his

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position, I am certainly too great. You because I am here tonight with

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an opportunity for us to make progress on this issue. And I also

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start by saying how pleased I am icing the member from a six-year and

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hear the story of our meeting back in 1993, over 20 years ago. May I

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suggest it offers a parable for the debate we're having this evening. An

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opportunity for the member from stone to take over when it comes

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difficult issues because he is right in his recollection that as a new

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MP, he did come to my school to speak to the girls and got a

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grilling from one member. I am sad to hear that the debate you also had

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about child poverty indexes to further education did not have such

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an impression on him, but I am delighted in genuinely humbled to

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hear that it is something he then took to his shadow cabinet to debate

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about. Because I have to tell the honourable member, he knows this,

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and at the same time, my head teacher threatened to exclude me

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should I ask the MP anymore difficult questions. The

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negotiations in Europe are simple, there may be of good issues, or

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courage and raising an authority figure, but look, look what happens

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when you do raise these issues. People may disagree with you and in

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fact turn around 20 years later, champions for shows like social and

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progressive change. I am very glad that the honourable Lady gives way

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because it was in 1993 that we were conducting the referendum in order

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to be able to get the results that she wants in relation to this

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particular matter. It was actually because at that time we realised

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that if we did not sort out the European Union properly, we would

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not get properly quoted, which he is not get properly quoted, which he is

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now demanding. I simply say to the honourable gentleman, we do not ask

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the question, we should never find out is one thing that is on point

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and I'd stop and one of the reasons that the sensible amendment from the

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honourable member should garner support from across the House. It is

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not a debate that has happened at European level. My point about that

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parable about 20 years ago was when you asked those questions, when you

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challenge, you can be amazed at the results that you can secure as a

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result. To me also say, this is not actually a debate about the European

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Union. I recognise the member from Wycombe was indeed too young to

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vote, but the point of reason to purchase taxes this, it is a bit of

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a red herring to think this is about the European Union. Because camp

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grounds and sanitizing products have always been considered a luxury.

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That is not by accident, but by design, a an unequal society in

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which the concerns of women are not treated as equally as the concerns

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of men. If we were not in the European Union, there is still the

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possibility that a purchase tax would be applied to tampons which

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would not be applied to other products. Go on. I just want to

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return to this question on the gender equality national development

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act because that has nothing to do with the European Union. I just want

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to make it quite clear that there are those of us that believe

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passionately in the arguments that the honourable Lady has put forward

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and headed by no means is exclusive to the issues of the European Union.

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I thank you for that. I will come onto the issues of gender inequality

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on a national level, but I have to give a warning, I will not take any

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more interventions from the gentleman, and he uses the term

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tampons, and I think it is important we use the appropriate wording. The

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point I'm trying to make is that actually... The inequality that

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women face and having to pay this tax has been there for generations.

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The question for all of us is what can we do to change that? I want to

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add my name to those of the people I am sharing our congratulations of

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the work of the former members, who is a hero to many of us for her

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persistence and fighting a cause for reducing the rate of the tax on

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sanitary towels and tampons in the year 2000. Having thoughts are about

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as negations, where indeed she had to use the appropriate terms and

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explain the possibility that if we did not resolve these issues, men

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and women could be sat next to each other with women experiencing their

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periods and experience it difficult to each other with women

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experiencing their periods and experience a difficult thing that

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can come from that without that same protection because of the cost of

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these sorts of products. The work that she did was visionary on this.

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In talking to her about this issue, what becomes very clear is that this

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is not about the rates, but the descriptions. I am looking forward

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to hear what the Minister has to say about this because actually, there

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is common agreement that we want to see this issue result. There is a

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condition that in the year 2015, a tax on women, a joiner tax, whatever

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you want to call it, is unfair. There is a resolution of this

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issue, not necessarily from the way she talked about the rates, but with

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the way that it is described and ascribed to certain products. That

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is where inequality has come from, because of the concept of what is a

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necessity. I will of course give way, to the member. I do not

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remember the honourable Lady giving away 20 years ago, but at that very

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fine school, a high school for girls, which is a grammar school.

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And parentheses I should just say... I am delighted that this

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government is doing more per educational opportunities for the

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disadvantaged than any previous government and my living memory, but

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the point I wanted to make was to ask her why she thinks the

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honourable Lady was unable to remove the 5% rate on tampons and sanitary

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valves when she's succeeded in reducing the discussion level. Why

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did she not take this initiative to the European Union there? It is

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because she found the government of the day was thinking we have more

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important fish to fry in our negotiations with the European

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Union. It is this unsatisfactory give and take approach to national

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interest which I think we should get out of by leaving the European

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Union. I thank you for that intervention and for bringing up the

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school I was at, because the school I was at, because it taught me to do

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my homework. I was incredibly lucky to get to that school having failed

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to test the first, get. Which is why I should always be against this

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because I recognise the benefits that I got by being able to take it

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for a second time and having that education. Which is why I know that

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one of the rules and challenges around us is that the concept is

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zero rated VAT is different from the other one. What someone found at the

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time was that it was not about unwilling unwillingness, but the

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rules of what he can put the zero rating to. That is why she labelled

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as secure a reduction of raging. I am sure he would agree that that is

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progress. But it is also about the way the products are described, and

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that is what I want to hear from the Minister tonight, because he will

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know the history of the value added tax and how you describe your

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product, and what you described to be a necessity. I think it is

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important to have a concept of what we have described as a necessity.

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Therefore zero rated. I wonder whether the members opposite also

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agree that when we change these definitions, that is where progress

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can be made. For example,... Let it be known, I do not consider them to

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be essential to my life. I recognise that razors are zero rated, judging

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by some of the members opposite, the opportunity to shave every day is

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for them a human right. They are cleanly shaven, I'm sure they will

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art deeply concerned to be challenged in that way. Hide that is

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something we can all agree on as a necessity. Pita bread is zero rated.

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What is the kebab without a good piece of pita bread around it, it is

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a necessity. Is when you start looking at what is that the SST and

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what is described as a luxury that you see the inequalities in this

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debate. Those inequality is as I was saying earlier existed longer before

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we joined the European Union. Long before we worked on zero value added

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tax. The question is not to have the similar rates of taxation, but to

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recognise the similar descriptions. That is the way this issue can be

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resolved within the European Union. It is also why it matters to us to

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work with our colleagues in other countries. I come back to the

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concern from other members about gender inequality around the world.

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Because he is absolutely right, our sisters in France are paying 20% on

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their tampons and sanitary towels. Because they do not have the reduced

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rate. Is not actually about tampons and the rate of taxation across the

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European Union, it is about the way different countries have interpreted

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the concept a necessity and essentials. Where we do raise this

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question, I have been very clear with the member from stone, unless

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he is wanting to talk about the products we are talking about, I

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will not allow an intervention. If he can say the word, I will

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happily... With respect to the question of sanitary towels and

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tampons. Cannot simply make this point? What I would really like to

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low, because I recognise the honourable Lady does know what she

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is talking about. Would like to know whether in fact, in her experience,

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internationally, outside the European Union, there is a similar

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problem, which perhaps come from international organisations as well.

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Is there anything in that was my can she please explain? Let me simply

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say, people say that progress cannot be made in this chamber. The

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honourable gentleman is absolutely right, 10% of girls in Africa do not

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go to school when they have a period because you do not have appropriate

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sanitary protection. He is right to be concerned about this. What I am

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simply saying is that his concern, let me see if we can contend temp --

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ten temper there. We should be concerned about the inequality and

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tax rates, the inequality of VAT that our sisters pay in a rate of

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countries that being said tonight, we have an opportunity here in the

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British Parliament to show solidarity across the continent, to

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make sure that this is part of negotiations, because let's be

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honest, it has never been part of the negotiating process and the

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House. Prior to joining the European Union. Of it was only part of the

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negotiation process because of the honourable Lady. It is actually a

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red herring to think this is about the European Union, it is a

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recognition that the time has come to end these inequalities. Our

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sisters in France tried to bring forward legislation just this summer

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and were defeated. What a strong message of social progress we could

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send from the British from a today by passing this legislation and

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sending our prime minister in to have that difficult conversation and

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say how do we clarify a way that essential items are categorised

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across the European Union? How do we make this work for 51% of our

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population, because I am sitting from the member that he does care

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about these issues deeply, he does recognise the inequality, and if he

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has frustration tonight, it is simply because he does not see

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progress happening quickly enough. Lemmie reassured him, whether it

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takes 20 years or two hours in a debate, it is possible to make

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progress, and I urge them, support this amendment. So we can send our

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prime minister with something worth fighting for it they European

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Union, and yes we can all hear back in February whether not our prime

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minister has made progress. Whether he has been able to say to our

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French counterparts, Italian counterparts, that tampons and

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sanitary towels should be treated as necessity and 2015. I am sure when

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we hear that message from the prime minister tonight, he will give us --

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minister tonight, it will bring us all into the 21st Century by

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supporting this amendment as well. Hear, hear! Can I get my respects to

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the honourable lady for breaking this debate forward. It is very

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interesting figures I have heard this evening, 250,000 people have

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signed previous amendments and discussion points about this over

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the years. I know there has been all sorts of discussion as long as I

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have been in Parliament about this issue. I am not surprised there has

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been a cross party amendment, and many from this side of the House,

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SNP, and others have been supporting this with of course whether you are

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female or male as it should be. This has been and has always been and

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will always be analogical tax. We have heard some interesting details

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-- a logical. I would not know the differences between various products

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that they were laid out, some would be zero rated, some would be lower

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rate. It is generally a female issue, of course, but I think she

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describes some of these products as C Davey products, and if you have a

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male boots he gave the product, it will of course be zero rated. So

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immediately, we have these anomalies and the tax system. There... That is

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one of the anomalies that we have not enjoyed compared to much of

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European Union, how long that will last, who knows? On children's

:19:41.:19:44.

products and food, they continue to be zero rated. The matter how

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luxurious that food might appear to some. Of course, and the reason we

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have this anomaly within tampons and female sanitary products is of

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course just Oracle. Prior to the first general in 1773 when we join

:20:03.:20:05.

the European Union, we had a sales tax on these products, whereas the

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Republic of Ireland, as it was highlighted by my friend, they had

:20:11.:20:15.

decided, for whatever historical reason, that there will not be a

:20:16.:20:21.

sales tax on tampons and sanitary items. So we were stuck with that

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from the date we joined. Dallas at that time, most of the members of

:20:27.:20:30.

that time would have been of my gender, it probably did not rank

:20:31.:20:37.

that high lead on concerns. But despite the anomalies we have, we

:20:38.:20:41.

are in a customs union with the European Union. To a certain

:20:42.:20:47.

extent, VAT rates can be different. A couple of weeks ago,... Whereas in

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the hungry it is 20%. Some countries have a tourist rate, a restaurant

:20:58.:21:04.

rate of 10%. This country over the years we have had some flexibility

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on VAT rates, a variety of rates, back down to 15 for a bit, and now

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we are back up to 20. It is quite remarkable how this debate this

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evening has managed to get some members very active, we have

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discussed them at some point, adding it to grammar schools, which I

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thought was a clever move, and also the fan club of the honourable lady.

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But it's just turned to her now. We salute her for what she did in the

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year 2000. From reducing the VAT rate the tampons and the like from

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the standard rate, which I assume was 15%, down to 5%. And he must ask

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yourself, why did she not go that extra five? That was in the year

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2000. I am quite curiously, in 2006, it was not until 2006 the rate of

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line to condoms was the full standard rate, which would have been

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at the time probably 17 and a half percent. That was reduced in 2006,

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some six years later, the reduction on tampons. It was reduced to 5%. It

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took six years to get there. If memory serves well, Gordon Brown at

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that time was doing something to the economy, maybe it was appropriate at

:22:31.:22:34.

that time to reduce attack while he was doing it. Why again did not get

:22:35.:22:42.

reduced to 0%? The condom, a product that is the most valuable terrier

:22:43.:22:49.

against STDs, against high to my pregnancy rates in this country, but

:22:50.:22:52.

the difference is that they are freely available in many clinics,

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but we are incapable, despite the benefits of such a product, of tax

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rates down to 0%. I think therein is the argument that has been brought

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this evening. I support your proposal because it is the right

:23:08.:23:11.

thing to do. These are not a luxury, these are an essential thing that

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should not be tax. Such as postnatal things roll forward. These are not

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taxed, that is a essential part of a woman's life. And should not be

:23:26.:23:30.

similarly tax. We are incapable of doing so because of that old

:23:31.:23:35.

historical anomaly dating back to pre-1973. And herein is the rub with

:23:36.:23:42.

the European ask that to the. I have no doubts that ministers over the

:23:43.:23:46.

years would have listened very carefully to what you said, and what

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many people across this house and country... If the honourable

:23:50.:23:56.

gentleman can remember he has speaking from the chair. I have no

:23:57.:24:02.

proposals today. My sincere apologies Madam Deputy Speaker. You

:24:03.:24:10.

have taken me off track now. I will close, that there was an appeal

:24:11.:24:18.

earlier on, again, by the member from Glasgow Central. This should be

:24:19.:24:21.

a mentor, and meshes that comes out of this place, a message that goes

:24:22.:24:26.

to the European Union as some sort of plea. I think we have heard that

:24:27.:24:31.

from member dying members of the other side as well, that a plea and

:24:32.:24:36.

message. I am afraid that goes back to burial times as far as I'm

:24:37.:24:40.

concerned, the taxation without representation. It is all very well

:24:41.:24:44.

that we give messages, but surely this offer sovereign place should be

:24:45.:24:49.

able to set the rate of sales tax, VAT, that it chooses on such

:24:50.:24:54.

products as tampons and sanitary towels. I am afraid it rather

:24:55.:25:00.

reduces the status of this house to one of being the colonies of old.

:25:01.:25:06.

Pleading with the Empire power of the UK for something that they

:25:07.:25:14.

want, of course I will give way. The Prime Minister has been begging and

:25:15.:25:18.

pleading with European leaders all over the place, would it not be a

:25:19.:25:24.

useful thing to do to raise this issue with them? I am certainly

:25:25.:25:31.

hoping that his visit has a lot on his agenda. I am hoping that

:25:32.:25:34.

following this debate, this will be one of them. But it is one of

:25:35.:25:39.

exclusive city on setting VAT rates. And not elsewhere. Isn't the

:25:40.:25:49.

point that there are so many things that we want our Prime Minister to

:25:50.:25:54.

raise in the European Union, and the increasing number of things, how

:25:55.:25:56.

much contribution we make, free movement of people, about how we

:25:57.:26:02.

control our borders, that such a myriad of issues, these little

:26:03.:26:06.

things, I say little, mistakenly, because of course it looms large as

:26:07.:26:13.

and a quality item in our minds. These things get set-aside. And this

:26:14.:26:18.

is a rotten way of running a continent. I agree with my

:26:19.:26:25.

honourable friend, I certainly hope that progress can be made in very

:26:26.:26:29.

many areas and not least this one. I close that we should not be like a

:26:30.:26:35.

colony pleading with an Empire power for something we should be setting

:26:36.:26:40.

here very clearly. I think again that the honourable lady for raising

:26:41.:26:49.

the. I think it has opened Pandora's box on who governs this country.

:26:50.:26:57.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise to move, also on a VAT issue.

:26:58.:27:05.

Those who would like to pay tribute to everyone participating in the

:27:06.:27:11.

debate, just past. I would like to pay particular tribute to my

:27:12.:27:18.

colleague from Glasgow Glasgow Central, for raising this. At that

:27:19.:27:21.

time, we were favoured with support from the Labour benches, and look

:27:22.:27:28.

forward for them reciprocating this and supporting the amendment. Madam

:27:29.:27:34.

Deputy Speaker, during the second reading debate, I focused

:27:35.:27:38.

particularly on my rescue service. And the punishment by the UK

:27:39.:27:43.

Government in relation to VAT. I should now like to focus on some

:27:44.:27:49.

detail on Scotland who came into being in 2013. I should say I have a

:27:50.:27:55.

prejudice in supporting the police, as I am a former academic supervisor

:27:56.:28:00.

-- advisor to these got a stub about and have contributed to creating

:28:01.:28:06.

programmes for chief ulcers, and crime analysts. The key reason for

:28:07.:28:12.

the creation of police Scotland was, according to the Scottish

:28:13.:28:17.

Government, and I quote, ", establishing a... ". -- such as

:28:18.:28:26.

major investigation teams, whenever and wherever they are needed. Allow

:28:27.:28:32.

me to give a few examples of the effects of creating a single force.

:28:33.:28:40.

Assistant chief Alize Constable speaking as recently as the 29th of

:28:41.:28:47.

September, 2015, stated since the advent of police Scotland, every

:28:48.:28:55.

thing committed has been detected. He is overly modest. Improvement in

:28:56.:28:59.

homicide detection, we have opened old cases as well, unsolved ones

:29:00.:29:07.

from previous police forces, and have already sold five of those two.

:29:08.:29:16.

Police, and has... And is now able to treat things as seriously as

:29:17.:29:24.

murder. The national Child abuse investigation unit, unit has been

:29:25.:29:27.

established to support the investigation of complex child abuse

:29:28.:29:32.

and neglect across Scotland. Police Scotland have also been able to

:29:33.:29:37.

tackle intellectual robbery crime, much more effectively, around ?20

:29:38.:29:43.

million in criminal assets, and making around 70 arrests. And

:29:44.:29:51.

prevents have resulted in areas that shows cross-border cooperation and

:29:52.:29:54.

terrorism as I discussed in the committee stage. This government

:29:55.:30:00.

says we must abandon the improvements resulting from Police

:30:01.:30:05.

Scotland to satisfy some had ruled the mic old rules established in an

:30:06.:30:11.

act in 1994. Reflecting on the debate we just had, this is one area

:30:12.:30:17.

where the government, the UK government, has an entirely within

:30:18.:30:21.

their power to act reasonably and a matter in related to VAT. Yet, they

:30:22.:30:29.

have chosen to provide that exemption to other public bodies

:30:30.:30:34.

elsewhere in the UK, at the same time as they completely denied the

:30:35.:30:40.

right of the Scottish police and the Scottish fire and rescue service to

:30:41.:30:45.

achieve that exemption. Speaking to the Justice committee of the

:30:46.:30:48.

Scottish Parliament last November, chief Constable Stephen House had

:30:49.:30:54.

this to say and I quote. " I do find it bewildering that we seem to be

:30:55.:30:59.

the only police service in the United Kingdom that is charged VAT.

:31:00.:31:06.

None of the 43 forces in England and Wales paid. The answer seems to come

:31:07.:31:12.

back to the Treasury, that is because you are a central government

:31:13.:31:19.

organisation now. Well, you have the police service of Northern Ireland,

:31:20.:31:24.

they do not pay VAT. You have the national crime agency, and they do

:31:25.:31:30.

not peeve .jp 82. But we pay VAT. I just do not understand the logic of

:31:31.:31:34.

that, and I frankly do not think the Scottish public would understand the

:31:35.:31:40.

logic of it either. " Yet, consider what this government has been

:31:41.:31:47.

willing to do on VAT. At the stroke of a pen, the government has made

:31:48.:31:51.

central government funding to private schools in England exempt

:31:52.:31:57.

from VAT. For goodness sake, even the BBC does not have to pay VAT. So

:31:58.:32:05.

when it suits this government, and previous British governments, they

:32:06.:32:09.

have little difficulty in allowing exemptions. But in the committee,

:32:10.:32:17.

the Minister said, and I quote" if the Scottish government under

:32:18.:32:21.

reconsideration of their position and wish to discuss how the service

:32:22.:32:27.

can be eligible once again for VAT refunds, the Treasury will happily

:32:28.:32:32.

engage with them to advise. " Madam Deputy Speaker, it is not the

:32:33.:32:36.

Scottish government that needs to reconsider its position, it is the

:32:37.:32:40.

UK government. Although we are talking significant sums for Police

:32:41.:32:45.

Scotland, and the Scottish fire and rescue service, in total, an excess

:32:46.:32:51.

of ?30 million annually, it is a dense compared to the overall UK

:32:52.:32:56.

budget. There is no economic rationale for continuing to deny VAT

:32:57.:33:01.

exemption. There is no -- the government seems simply to lack of

:33:02.:33:06.

the decency to care about policing and fire rescue services in

:33:07.:33:11.

Scotland. So much for the arty of law and order, so much for the

:33:12.:33:16.

respected gender, their attitude has the stench of publicity and

:33:17.:33:18.

prejudice about it. I was not going to speak in this

:33:19.:33:31.

debate, but I think it is a vital debate, that is why I joined,

:33:32.:33:35.

because I worked with other honourable members on this side in

:33:36.:33:39.

this debate on their first day of committee when I was the sole

:33:40.:33:44.

representative of the shadow Treasury. I thought it was in an

:33:45.:33:48.

important debate then, and I think we move on the debate today, the

:33:49.:33:54.

member from Glasscock Centro, and Halifax spoke very well on this

:33:55.:33:57.

issue in committee. I want to touch on some the things they said. I also

:33:58.:34:01.

want to say that it is very important that we have this Clause,

:34:02.:34:08.

this New Clause moved, and that we have a hard-hitting and sensible

:34:09.:34:11.

debate tonight, which has actually gotten to the point of the real

:34:12.:34:18.

issue about the VAT rate on sanitary products. These are not luxurious

:34:19.:34:22.

products, as other members, but as we know to the committee met in

:34:23.:34:26.

Deputy Speaker, there are designer products which are VAT exempt. My

:34:27.:34:33.

honourable friend found somebody products listed on VAT exempt.

:34:34.:34:44.

Jellies are apparently VAT exempt. Amazingly, things like exotic meats,

:34:45.:34:49.

such as crocodile and kangaroo are VAT exempt. The amazingly named

:34:50.:34:54.

millionaire shortbread is VAT exempt. We have this quite bizarre

:34:55.:35:00.

situation, a strange list of products, I am sure that these

:35:01.:35:08.

things are not luxurious products. -- these are eggs luxurious

:35:09.:35:14.

products. I want to reflect on the response that we have, as I say, we

:35:15.:35:18.

did have a debate, those two members I mentioned spoke well. I supported

:35:19.:35:27.

what they said. What did the Minister said? Let's hope we can

:35:28.:35:29.

really The Minister said we are supported

:35:30.:35:40.

and would like the rate to be as low as possible. And we have opposition

:35:41.:35:45.

that is good and supportive. He did go on to say that he felt it would

:35:46.:35:49.

be a challenge without wider EU were formed and without greater

:35:50.:35:55.

flexibility. He did say, this is important, we will be able to

:35:56.:35:58.

progress further on this matter, I would be sympathetic. We do have a

:35:59.:36:05.

minister who said he was sympathetic. I think the Minister

:36:06.:36:13.

should be supportive of this. A number of his honourable friends

:36:14.:36:18.

want him to be supportive. In terms of this debate can I add my name to

:36:19.:36:25.

those praising the earlier campaigns, her earlier campaign to

:36:26.:36:31.

reduce the VAT rate by 5%, 15 years ago would have been a brave and to

:36:32.:36:33.

do in this House. We have had plenty of members who have been able to

:36:34.:36:39.

talk straightforward about this. Back then there were not as many

:36:40.:36:43.

women in the House and it would have been age of quote subject to talk

:36:44.:36:49.

about. I am glad to thank her for that. I want to say, you can

:36:50.:36:57.

summarise the whole thing by saying this VAT rate that we currently have

:36:58.:37:02.

since the year 2000 is unfair to women and it is unfair to families.

:37:03.:37:07.

It may be that it is a rail challenge for the Minister to

:37:08.:37:09.

negotiate with that you on this matter. I hope that this is a

:37:10.:37:16.

challenge the Minister and the Prime Minister they take on the. In terms

:37:17.:37:21.

of the negotiation with the EU, there are many very things they

:37:22.:37:24.

would be happy to take a challenge for work on the. I think we would

:37:25.:37:30.

want to see, and the ministers honourable friends on either side

:37:31.:37:33.

have indicated that many of them want to see this to. They want to

:37:34.:37:37.

see him take on a challenge like this. I am sure he is up to it. He

:37:38.:37:42.

is very well stated in these matters, he has support from all

:37:43.:37:47.

sides of the House. I urge the honourable members to support the

:37:48.:37:50.

New Clause and give the Minister of the reason to take this on. Thank

:37:51.:37:57.

you Madam Deputy Speaker. I think in terms of the causes we are debating

:37:58.:38:02.

in this part of this evenings proceedings there's probably no

:38:03.:38:04.

greater contrast between this and the House of Commons. Here we are

:38:05.:38:10.

debating whether or not a cut in inheritance tax should go ahead,

:38:11.:38:13.

when it is the unelected House standing up to champion the

:38:14.:38:16.

interests of working people by doing something that frankly any more

:38:17.:38:19.

members on the opposite side should have done. That is to put their

:38:20.:38:23.

conscious in their feet into March through the correct voting lobby

:38:24.:38:27.

because we know from all of the evidence that has Artie been debated

:38:28.:38:32.

this evening that the changes to inheritance tax will effectively

:38:33.:38:40.

cost gastric or some ?940 million by 2020-2021. --. ... When members

:38:41.:38:51.

opposite ask about where our priorities are they while ways be in

:38:52.:38:54.

championing interest of hard-working people and trying to infuse the pay.

:38:55.:39:00.

For this reason, the proposals we are debating this evening to delete

:39:01.:39:17.

Clause nine of the finance Bill says exactly where our priorities are and

:39:18.:39:20.

where they should be. It is humiliating for the Chancellor and

:39:21.:39:23.

the administered having claimed to these great centrist modernizers

:39:24.:39:29.

that it is in fact the House of Lords that has had to do what

:39:30.:39:33.

frankly the elected House of Commons should have done last week. That we

:39:34.:39:37.

so have the opportunity to do so with the debate taking place

:39:38.:39:41.

tomorrow and on Thursday. Speaking of the conservative modernization

:39:42.:39:47.

project, let's remind them of modernization project Mark one. We

:39:48.:39:52.

remember when the Prime Minister promised the greatest government

:39:53.:39:54.

ever and he was running with the Huskies and hugging. And here we

:39:55.:40:00.

have, Clause 45 of the finance Bill, which would remove the exemption

:40:01.:40:05.

from the climate change levy for electrics to be produced by

:40:06.:40:09.

renewable sources from the 1st of August this year. At the members

:40:10.:40:15.

opposite really need to decide whether they are going to be the

:40:16.:40:18.

true loo conservatives that we have seen represented in an unlikely form

:40:19.:40:23.

of the debate on tampons and sanitary products or whether they

:40:24.:40:27.

are going to in fact be the party of the centre ground and work being men

:40:28.:40:34.

and women. I will certainly get away. My honourable friend mentioned

:40:35.:40:42.

the environmental... He also mentioned the sanitary products,

:40:43.:40:46.

being tampons and sanitary towels. He also recognise that... And should

:40:47.:40:54.

also be included in this debate? In this respect and in other have

:40:55.:41:00.

always favoured a woman's right to choose. Is for a woman to decide

:41:01.:41:03.

which is the appropriate form of sanitary products. Of course she is

:41:04.:41:10.

quite right. That it does have the environmental benefits that she

:41:11.:41:14.

talked about. I was glad to add my name to the amendment of my

:41:15.:41:19.

honourable friend, which would tackle this issue. I am glad to see

:41:20.:41:23.

so much cross party support. I am disappointed by the language that is

:41:24.:41:29.

used to this evening about our part. We have heard, apparently he said

:41:30.:41:37.

this is the most indicative measure that the European Union has put in

:41:38.:41:40.

place. No wonder they are represented here in great numbers. I

:41:41.:41:46.

hope the outcome is not dedicated on this. They may find it a struggle to

:41:47.:41:51.

get wider traction. I do find it objectionable that so many

:41:52.:41:53.

honourable members opposite talk about negotiating our new European

:41:54.:42:00.

partners as begging. No difference to our constituents coming to lobby

:42:01.:42:03.

us and having a reasonable conversation. Is -- if this is how

:42:04.:42:09.

it is going to work and we are in trouble. I will give way. I am here

:42:10.:42:15.

because I had to stand in an election, my constituency have a

:42:16.:42:24.

right to vote me out. ... We have the European Parliament, the Council

:42:25.:42:27.

of ministers which are accountable to their respective governments and

:42:28.:42:30.

of course the commission itself is in many ways accountable. I would

:42:31.:42:34.

like to see reforms, reforms to some of these accountability mechanisms.

:42:35.:42:39.

As the old saying goes you have to be in it to win it. Europe as on

:42:40.:42:48.

climate change in inheritance tax and the debate taking place in the

:42:49.:42:51.

other house on tax credits, we have seen in every single example that

:42:52.:42:58.

this is not the new modernised Conservative Party. It is the same

:42:59.:43:03.

all right wing Tories. They have left their minister out dry. The

:43:04.:43:09.

reasonable amendments will be supported by all members, that is my

:43:10.:43:14.

hope. I welcome New Clause seven. I hope everyone can unite in

:43:15.:43:18.

supporting it tonight. I do not think it goes far enough, but it is

:43:19.:43:22.

a great step forward. I will congratulate the honourable member

:43:23.:43:25.

on that. I think tonight people watching this debate, and I hope

:43:26.:43:31.

many millions of women will be watching, that many of them will

:43:32.:43:33.

have actually started to ask the question of just why it is that we

:43:34.:43:38.

still cannot do what everyone believes in this chamber. Sanitary

:43:39.:43:45.

towels and tampons are not a luxury as everyone has that. Therefore

:43:46.:43:49.

should have the right to decide what the level of tax on any product in

:43:50.:43:54.

this country is. People tonight listed have known that the reality

:43:55.:43:59.

is, whatever we say about negotiations, whatever we say about

:44:00.:44:03.

going to our partners and working with our EU partners. Let us not

:44:04.:44:07.

forget it is the EU not the European union. We will not be able to win

:44:08.:44:14.

that the reality is the European Union wants to maintain control of

:44:15.:44:17.

how we run affairs in this country. This is the beginning of a hugely

:44:18.:44:22.

important debate in this country on the referendum. Important issues

:44:23.:44:29.

like this article and of issues that would never get recognised by the

:44:30.:44:32.

European Union. I hope tonight that we will support this and the Prime

:44:33.:44:38.

Minister will go. I do think he will get anywhere and I worked the

:44:39.:44:40.

Minister Amla finally, will the respondent saying if he really

:44:41.:44:45.

believes this country being democratic is this part of the...

:44:46.:44:52.

Why do we just not do it? What would the EU do. I hope that everyone

:44:53.:45:01.

tonight will support. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. A pleasure to

:45:02.:45:05.

respond to this debate. Can I began back on graduating the honourable

:45:06.:45:14.

member on his debut -- began by congratulating. I should attempt,

:45:15.:45:20.

and the time available respond to his speech and the many other

:45:21.:45:24.

speeches we have heard this evening. Let me begin with New Clause nine

:45:25.:45:27.

which would require the Chancellor to undertake a comprehensive review

:45:28.:45:34.

of the inheritance tax regime within one year of the current budget

:45:35.:45:41.

surplus. And the other which would remove Clause nine. This means the

:45:42.:45:44.

additional transferable rate for all individuals who leave their home

:45:45.:45:50.

would not be introduced. Madam Deputy Speaker, the provisions set

:45:51.:45:57.

out in Clause nine were made in the Conservative Party manifesto. This

:45:58.:45:59.

was a promise of the British people. It recognises we are facing

:46:00.:46:04.

a situation where we find more hard-working families facing in

:46:05.:46:15.

inheritance tax bill,. Last year, 35,000... That has been forecast to

:46:16.:46:22.

rise by nearly double to 63000 and 2020-2021. Dozens more worry about

:46:23.:46:28.

leaving their families with in inheritance tax bill. The additional

:46:29.:46:33.

transferable freight simply returns the number of states with in

:46:34.:46:38.

inheritance tax liability to 37,020-21. Rod with the same level

:46:39.:46:48.

as an 2014, 2015. This is still more than it any year between 1997 and

:46:49.:46:54.

2010. Furthermore we have ensured that the wealthiest will make a fair

:46:55.:47:00.

contribution to public finances through inheritance tax. The largest

:47:01.:47:04.

estates will not be able to benefit of the new allowance. They will have

:47:05.:47:09.

a gradually withdrawn, ?1 for every ?2. Those who would support

:47:10.:47:15.

demonstrate that they do not have understand that those who wish to

:47:16.:47:19.

save pay their taxes, work hard to own their own homes and pass it onto

:47:20.:47:26.

children and grandchildren, without facing ASD taxing. We believe that

:47:27.:47:30.

it is right that people should be able to pass on their home to their

:47:31.:47:33.

descendents rather than the tax man instead. The honourable member set

:47:34.:47:47.

out, it sounded like his concerns that there were very few properties

:47:48.:47:50.

within his constituency that would be affected by it. And he also said

:47:51.:47:58.

that he opposed the nation to take them back the last Labour government

:47:59.:48:00.

to introduce the transferable rate band. I remind him that the year in

:48:01.:48:08.

which that was brought in, for .3% of the states paid inheritance tax.

:48:09.:48:19.

If we do not take action, then by 20 19-2020, something like 11% will be

:48:20.:48:28.

paying inheritance tax -- 4.3%. I suspect that the desire to have a

:48:29.:48:35.

revue for -- review for inheritance taxes, judging from the comments we

:48:36.:48:39.

have heard on the suggesting that we will be need meeting to raising more

:48:40.:48:45.

revenue. The party opposite sees that as a potential cash cow for

:48:46.:48:52.

raising additional revenue, if I've misunderstood I am happy to withdraw

:48:53.:48:55.

that remark. And that seemed to be the direct and the party opposite

:48:56.:49:03.

wants to go. Black it is not a being a cash cow, it is a question whether

:49:04.:49:06.

we maintain the rates we are to have. Or move to the next step which

:49:07.:49:15.

is government wishes. The regime as it stands will affect more

:49:16.:49:20.

properties than they did under any of the Labour leaders under the

:49:21.:49:24.

proposals that we have in front of us. The reality is that if we do not

:49:25.:49:31.

take action it will hit more and more states. Will be a tax that will

:49:32.:49:35.

be much more widespread than it was previously. If that is the position

:49:36.:49:41.

they hold, that is the position. I think we should be aware of what it

:49:42.:49:50.

is. In that time available, I would does briefly touch on some of the

:49:51.:49:54.

points that were raised by the honourable member in terms of this

:49:55.:49:59.

area. He raised concerns that this policy would have a big affect on

:50:00.:50:04.

the housing market, reassuring they have looked to this matter. Remember

:50:05.:50:13.

the allowance here only applies to a single home it not encourage people

:50:14.:50:18.

to buy multiple homes to maximise the allowance. Is capped at ?175,000

:50:19.:50:26.

per individual, or 355,000 for a married couples to be there is no

:50:27.:50:30.

disincentive to downsize because they will not lose the allowance in

:50:31.:50:33.

the circumstances. He raised the concern about upsizing, upsizing

:50:34.:50:39.

will only be attractive if a house is a small part of the state. As the

:50:40.:50:45.

honourable gentleman said himself, this is a very rare occurrence. I

:50:46.:50:50.

make the point that they will have a small effect on the housing market.

:50:51.:50:58.

He also raised the concern that about lineal descendents in

:50:59.:51:00.

particular we he made the point that a family structure tends to be some

:51:01.:51:09.

what wider. Let me reassure him that this allowance will apply for houses

:51:10.:51:17.

to the left to adopted children, foster children. I hope that point

:51:18.:51:21.

of clarification is coupled. In the time available, let me address the

:51:22.:51:29.

other matters. To meet briefly touch on Clause one which refers to

:51:30.:51:36.

Scotland in the VAT treatment. This is familiar territory we have

:51:37.:51:42.

debated before stopping extensively in the public bill committing. And

:51:43.:51:47.

2012, Scotland government police and fire authorities consolidated as a

:51:48.:51:53.

result they no longer became reliant on local taxation. This is one of

:51:54.:51:58.

the two criteria for eligibility for the section 33 of the scheme.

:51:59.:52:05.

Following these new national bodies are now no longer eligible for VAT

:52:06.:52:11.

refunds. The Scottish Government were forewarned of this well in

:52:12.:52:16.

advance of the decision they took. The Treasury working to ensure that

:52:17.:52:19.

the Scottish Government to consider the cost quizzes as part of the

:52:20.:52:23.

decision to restructure their services. Date expected cost

:52:24.:52:30.

saving, and waive the loss of many VAT refunds. They went ahead with

:52:31.:52:37.

it, as I explained sent the Scottish Government restructured there were

:52:38.:52:45.

no longer eligible. It was late and clear with eligibility set out. --

:52:46.:52:57.

Raymond. Limited to the issue that has dominated the debate. New Clause

:52:58.:53:06.

to require the Treasury to write a report on the VAT... Including a

:53:07.:53:14.

financial assessment and the impact on the purchasing of these products

:53:15.:53:18.

especially for those aged under and 25. -- aged under 25. I put my name

:53:19.:53:28.

to this amendment because I long thought, it is a bizarre and

:53:29.:53:33.

discriminatory tax which does need sorting out. Perhaps in the 1970s

:53:34.:53:39.

when I am sure most of us were in the school. It still made sense,

:53:40.:53:44.

when many were not using the conduct which does not transformed our

:53:45.:53:48.

ability to be freed up from the monthly restrictions of a period.

:53:49.:53:53.

Many of those in school with me were out every month because they didn't

:53:54.:53:55.

have access to went is now considered a completely normal part

:53:56.:54:01.

of our sanitary life. I would ask the Minister to be brave and think

:54:02.:54:05.

about this and stand up for all young women. Order! I am grateful to

:54:06.:54:12.

my honourable friend. I will address that point in a moment or so. New

:54:13.:54:18.

Clause seven does require the Treasury to label for both houses of

:54:19.:54:25.

Parliament a statement on our strategy to negotiate with the

:54:26.:54:28.

European Union institutions and exemption from the value added tax.

:54:29.:54:35.

For women sanitary protection products within three months of the

:54:36.:54:39.

passing of the act. The Minister must label for Parliament a report

:54:40.:54:43.

on progress in achieving exemption from value added tax. Within

:54:44.:54:50.

European law by the 1st of April 2016. This debate has highlighted

:54:51.:54:58.

the ongoing campaign to a 0 rate for VAT, or exempt from VAT tampons and

:54:59.:55:02.

other sanitary protection products which, as we have for tonight, has

:55:03.:55:07.

cross party support. This goes back for many years. My honourable friend

:55:08.:55:20.

is also raised this issue and I know on other occasions. The many

:55:21.:55:24.

honourable members have raised this point. As the other member pointed

:55:25.:55:31.

out this government sympathizes with the aim of this Clause. However, as

:55:32.:55:37.

we have also heard the UK does not have the ability to extend

:55:38.:55:42.

unilaterally... The UK has more extensive zero rating then most if

:55:43.:55:48.

not all other Member States. Any change to EU VAT rules would require

:55:49.:55:54.

a proposal from the European Commission and the support of all 28

:55:55.:55:58.

Member States. Can I complete this point and I will certainly give

:55:59.:56:04.

way? Without that agreement we are not permitted to lower rates below

:56:05.:56:09.

5%. Nonetheless as this debate illustrates, there is very

:56:10.:56:14.

considerable cross party support for the UK to abolish VAT on sanitary

:56:15.:56:20.

products. I undertake to the House that I will raise this issue with

:56:21.:56:23.

the European Commission and other Member States setting out that he

:56:24.:56:29.

used words -- views reflected. That it should be possible for a member

:56:30.:56:34.

State to apply a 0 rate for sanitary products. I think the honourable

:56:35.:56:36.

member for raising this debate for the House tonight. We have seen a

:56:37.:56:42.

demonstration of the views from all sides of the House, the belief that

:56:43.:56:46.

there should be that flexibility. I give way. My right honourable friend

:56:47.:56:53.

uses the word per minute. This is not something that is with and our

:56:54.:57:00.

capacity because of the European act. He knows that, the opposition

:57:01.:57:06.

knows that. Will he now commit to the fact that we will not merely

:57:07.:57:13.

talk about this, but actually do something about it? This is a hugely

:57:14.:57:17.

important cross party issue come with you please take on board the

:57:18.:57:22.

fact that we want to be able, we insist on legislating on our own

:57:23.:57:25.

terms in this house. We want to govern ourselves. -- permit. I do

:57:26.:57:32.

not want a console from the House that we don't have looks ability in

:57:33.:57:36.

this circumstance. Nor do I want to conceal from the House the challenge

:57:37.:57:43.

that would exist in reaching agreements. Other Member States to

:57:44.:57:48.

take a different approach. It is striking as the honourable member

:57:49.:57:52.

has pointed out, that there was a vote by the French assembly just a

:57:53.:57:57.

couple of weeks ago in an attempt to move the rate down from 20% to 5.5%

:57:58.:58:03.

that was defeated. I do not wish to pretend that this is just a mere

:58:04.:58:08.

formality. Other Member States to take a different approach. I will

:58:09.:58:14.

certainly give way. Thank you. I am very great. Be the Minister is

:58:15.:58:18.

pushing to start negotiations can he asked a clear commitment to come

:58:19.:58:21.

back and update the House and if so exactly when? I am certainly happy

:58:22.:58:27.

to update the House on any developments at any stage. As and

:58:28.:58:33.

when those development across. I'll be happy to give that reassurance to

:58:34.:58:39.

the honourable the domain. First of all... It is incredibly welcome to

:58:40.:58:45.

hear that he's going to raise this. Cannot present to be clear about and

:58:46.:58:49.

which environment he is going to raise this and when we will hear

:58:50.:58:52.

back. Entity will confirm that the European Council can produce a 0

:58:53.:58:57.

rating if it is declared in the public interest. We commit to

:58:58.:59:03.

raising this in the conversation. The point has been raised about the

:59:04.:59:07.

technicalities of VAT, but there is a public extension party can bring

:59:08.:59:16.

up. Does require a proposal from the commission and the other Member

:59:17.:59:20.

States. To be clear about this it is not a formality. I will take on more

:59:21.:59:32.

intervention. Lyons can he explain. Why is it necessary at all to have

:59:33.:59:38.

any tax harmonization in the EU in order to have trade with the EU? ...

:59:39.:59:53.

Giving the correct attention to that in the five minutes will be quite

:59:54.:59:59.

challenging. On this specific area as we have heard, time has moved on.

:00:00.:00:04.

It is right that we look again at this particular area. I am

:00:05.:00:11.

conscious, this'll have to be last intervention I take. Just respond to

:00:12.:00:16.

my question, if it is so dreadful and we all want it to happen, why do

:00:17.:00:21.

we not just do it and what would the EU do if we did? It is not just a

:00:22.:00:27.

matter of the EU law, the courts of the UK, as I suspect my honourable

:00:28.:00:32.

friend will be happy to explain to the honourable member, would ensure

:00:33.:00:39.

that we have to comply with the law one way or another. The law, it

:00:40.:00:44.

would not be lawful for us to reduce that rate. I should touch very

:00:45.:00:52.

briefly on climate change... I will take one last intervention. I am

:00:53.:00:56.

grateful to my honourable friend. I have listened carefully to him. You

:00:57.:01:00.

knows how seriously I take this, he could reassure me directly that he

:01:01.:01:04.

will specifically present the European Commission to bring forward

:01:05.:01:10.

measures to zero rates, tampons and sanitary products right across the

:01:11.:01:15.

EU? I will make those representations to the European

:01:16.:01:19.

Commission, to allow Member States to have the flexibility to do that.

:01:20.:01:26.

That is the key issue here. Very briefly, on crime and change Levy.

:01:27.:01:34.

-- climate change. Let me briefly explain, we have debated this on a

:01:35.:01:37.

number of occasions before. The climate change levy renewables

:01:38.:01:44.

exemption was misaligned with the other policy providing indirect

:01:45.:01:47.

support to renewable generators, the government is not investing or more

:01:48.:01:58.

effective things. That will provide over ?5 billion worth of support to

:01:59.:02:04.

renewable generation in 2015 - 2016 alone. I do not believe the report

:02:05.:02:13.

on this Clause is necessary. The Chancellor will report in August,

:02:14.:02:18.

setting out the environmental analysis of the summer budget and

:02:19.:02:26.

2015. Very quickly in terms of the enforcement by reduction of the

:02:27.:02:31.

counts, we believe this is a necessary measure. We believe we

:02:32.:02:34.

have struck the balance correctly on this matter. I'm grateful for the

:02:35.:02:38.

remarks from the Bible member and pointing out that the safeguards --

:02:39.:02:47.

honourable member. I know he still has concerns. But we are striking

:02:48.:02:51.

the right outlet. To conclude I urge the House to reject New Clause one,

:02:52.:02:57.

two, seven if it is pushed. I hope it will not be New Clause ten and

:02:58.:03:05.

11. On inheritance tax I think the government has not gone far enough.

:03:06.:03:10.

11% of the states might face it, that is still a tiny minority. If

:03:11.:03:14.

the government is worried about preserving assets it would have been

:03:15.:03:18.

a lot more social care for the elderly. That was indeed a decision

:03:19.:03:24.

of the parliament in Scotland, sadly saying they were warned is not that

:03:25.:03:29.

another. I understand and support the SNP on New Clause one. New

:03:30.:03:33.

Clause seven, I salute the Minister who has come a long way. He has not

:03:34.:03:37.

come far enough. The simile on New Clause 11. The question is that New

:03:38.:03:45.

Clause nine B read a second time. As many of that opinion say iMac, of

:03:46.:03:55.

the contrary say "no". Division, clear the lobby!

:03:56.:05:26.

The question is that New Clause nine B read a second time, Holly Lynch

:05:27.:05:37.

and Jeff Smith. DS Max -- the ayes to the X. No's to

:05:38.:17:32.

the left, 318. The ayes to the right, 278, the no's

:17:33.:18:05.

to the left, 318. The no's have it. Unlocked. Become the New Clause one.

:18:06.:18:15.

The question is that New Clause one be read a second time. Division!

:18:16.:18:26.

Clear the lobby. The ayes to the right, 277, that

:18:27.:30:57.

noes to the left, 317. The noes have it. Unlocked. We come now to New

:30:58.:31:08.

Clause seven. Move formally? Move formally. The New Clause seven to be

:31:09.:31:15.

read a second time, on the contrary know. Clear the lobby!

:31:16.:33:30.

The question is that New Clause seven be read a second time.

:33:31.:43:23.

Order! Order! The aye to the right, 287. The noes to the left, and. --

:43:24.:43:50.

305. Aye to the right, 20 77. Nose to the left, 307. The noes Cavett,

:43:51.:44:00.

the noes haven't. Unlock. Government wants a. And government 17. Thank

:44:01.:44:12.

you. The question is whether it government amendments nine - 16,

:44:13.:44:26.

1-8, 70 12-80, 70-80 be made. Aye I think the aye haven't. The ayes

:44:27.:44:35.

haven't. Mr Speaker, LI had the balls and the other place this

:44:36.:44:39.

evening, I agree that the chancellor and form the media that he will be

:44:40.:44:44.

bringing for measures to respond to the governments defeat. It is the

:44:45.:44:48.

responsibility of monitors, as you know Mr Speaker, you as you have

:44:49.:44:51.

ruled that the sort of announcement should be first made to house or the

:44:52.:44:59.

media. While there are any Treasury questions tomorrow, given the level

:45:00.:45:03.

of interest from members on all sides and the significance of this

:45:04.:45:07.

matter, I am asking that the Chancellor make an oral statement to

:45:08.:45:14.

this house tomorrow probably. That's probably. I'm grateful to the shadow

:45:15.:45:18.

Chancellor for his point of order. Is every bench would have heard what

:45:19.:45:25.

the honorable gentleman has said. It is open to administer to do so

:45:26.:45:30.

tomorrow. It, given a minister is present from the Treasury on the

:45:31.:45:38.

Treasury bench now, he is welcome to write to speak if he wishes. So be

:45:39.:45:51.

it. The House will understand. Order! Now understand that it is not

:45:52.:45:55.

a matter for the chair, I am simply playing there. It is a matter for

:45:56.:45:58.

the government and a minister could speak if he wanted to. But he is not

:45:59.:46:01.

under any obligation to. The honorable gentleman will be in his

:46:02.:46:06.

place tomorrow and so will the Chancellor be and we will await the

:46:07.:46:15.

development of events. Mr Speaker, given the results of the ball any

:46:16.:46:19.

other place tonight, I will appreciate if the Prime Minister

:46:20.:46:25.

includes and also can assure the House that he won't let the other

:46:26.:46:39.

place with more cronies and donors. The package is a good to the

:46:40.:46:42.

Honorable Lady and to be house while hearing what she has to say, that

:46:43.:46:49.

the late Lord why Lott was the author of a bid to break in British

:46:50.:46:54.

politics. As he put it, on the whole room I tend to prefer to cross

:46:55.:47:00.

bridges only one I come to them. Sank to be a very sagacious at the

:47:01.:47:07.

Ritz. All I will say to the House now, as much for the benefit of

:47:08.:47:12.

those outside this place as of members is this, to sentences. The

:47:13.:47:19.

parent act specifies that the government cannot make the

:47:20.:47:24.

regulations unless a draft has been approved by both houses. I think we

:47:25.:47:29.

can all agree upon that. Secondly, it is up to the government to decide

:47:30.:47:36.

how to proceed. We will leave it there, I think for now.

:47:37.:47:43.

Consideration completed. Third rating. Minister to move. I beg to

:47:44.:47:54.

move that this bill now be read at a third time. Mr Speaker, I would like

:47:55.:47:59.

to once again briefly outline the provisions of this finance Bill.

:48:00.:48:03.

These measures demonstrate this governments commitment to support

:48:04.:48:07.

working people, support business, and protect the public finances by

:48:08.:48:13.

tackling tax avoidance and evasion. They might be next that and our path

:48:14.:48:17.

to economic security, building on the economic foundations laid in the

:48:18.:48:21.

last Parliament. I continue our long-term plan for the economic

:48:22.:48:24.

stability and prosperity of this country. Mr Speaker, let me first

:48:25.:48:29.

turn to the support that this doesn't provide toward the working

:48:30.:48:34.

people. And this government is the hard-working people should keep more

:48:35.:48:38.

of the money that they earn. That is why following the methods introduced

:48:39.:48:43.

in the last Parliament, 27.5 million individuals saw the typical income

:48:44.:48:50.

tax bills reduced by ?825. But we want to go further, Mr Speaker. This

:48:51.:48:55.

bill increases the tax personal allowance to ?11,000 and 2016-17. At

:48:56.:49:05.

11,000, 200 rounds and 17-18. Will also increase the high rates

:49:06.:49:13.

thresholds for 42,000, 300 and ?5 in 2015-16 to ?43,000 and 2016-17. This

:49:14.:49:18.

government also believes that individual working 30 hours a week

:49:19.:49:22.

on the national minimum wage should not pay income tax. That is why we

:49:23.:49:30.

are assigning lot that was the personal allowance has reached the

:49:31.:49:36.

12,000 ?500, you'll always be at the equivalent of 30 hours a week on the

:49:37.:49:42.

national minimum wage. Finally, Mr Speaker it is the basic human

:49:43.:49:47.

aspiration and aspiration that this government has committed to

:49:48.:49:51.

supporting. This bill will help people to provide for their families

:49:52.:49:55.

after they have gone by fitting a new understand 5000 per person

:49:56.:50:00.

transferable allowance were at persons home is passed on add depth

:50:01.:50:06.

to their direct descendents. By the end of the Parliament, he and

:50:07.:50:10.

therapist asked for civil partners America should ?1 million. I'm a

:50:11.:50:16.

horrible friend for giving way. I'll also like to say that my Honorable

:50:17.:50:24.

friend... Has readjust the inequality created by labor when

:50:25.:50:28.

Damon is to remove the temporary tax fund. My honourable friend is right.

:50:29.:50:36.

Were at the last labored government double the rate of income tax, this

:50:37.:50:40.

government and the Coalition government increased the personal

:50:41.:50:44.

allowance varies to catch a lead from the local six and a half

:50:45.:50:47.

thousand pounds to the level that I have sent out this evening. Mr

:50:48.:50:51.

Speaker, I like to announce the support that this bill provides to

:50:52.:50:56.

businesses. The increase investment and improve our infrastructure,

:50:57.:51:00.

because that would drive growth and job creation over the coming years.

:51:01.:51:04.

First, it is clear that we need a business tax regime that is stable,

:51:05.:51:09.

competitive, and there. This is essential in order to make the UK

:51:10.:51:12.

more competitive and to support growth. In the previous Parliament,

:51:13.:51:19.

was cut from 20% to 20%. Something which led to med businesses, to the

:51:20.:51:25.

UK to carry out their activities. But given the global competition

:51:26.:51:29.

with the UK faces, we must go further. This bill cost the

:51:30.:51:36.

Corporation tax to 19% and 2017, an 18% and 2020. Saving businesses more

:51:37.:51:42.

than ?6 million and 2021, and giving the UK the lowest rate of

:51:43.:51:48.

corporation tax in the G20. This bill also sets the banal investment

:51:49.:51:53.

allowance a high-level of ?200,000. This will provide long-term

:51:54.:51:57.

certainty to businesses and encourage them to invest, and plant

:51:58.:52:04.

machinery. Mr Speaker, I was finally like to turn to be measured in this

:52:05.:52:06.

bill was tackled tax avoidance and evasion. And about SIDS in our tax

:52:07.:52:14.

system. Members will recall that the summer budget announced... This

:52:15.:52:20.

measure will collectively raise of ?5 billion a year by 2019-20. I am

:52:21.:52:26.

proud to say that this bill implement a number of those measures

:52:27.:52:30.

which will make an important contribution to the further ?37

:52:31.:52:33.

billion in fiscal consolidation that is required over the course...

:52:34.:52:40.

Course of Parliament by the end of this Parliament. Burst the bill

:52:41.:52:48.

ensures -- first the bill cannot exploit tax loopholes to avoid

:52:49.:52:53.

capital gains tax. We will also address an fact-finding risk in

:52:54.:52:56.

which corporate groups can export tax for asset transfers to

:52:57.:53:00.

interconnect a party. This ensures that profits are brought to tax.

:53:01.:53:09.

Finally, the bill motto... Attack started that directly from a debt at

:53:10.:53:13.

town. This measure was tackled those who seek to play the system and

:53:14.:53:16.

those while avoiding paying their fair share after tax. Which they can

:53:17.:53:22.

afford to pay. This measure will also be subject to robust safeguards

:53:23.:53:25.

and the most fun will will be protected. Taken together, these

:53:26.:53:28.

measures will protect our public finances and send a clear message

:53:29.:53:33.

that everyone in Britain must pay their fair share of tax. I would

:53:34.:53:39.

have one intervention. I thank the Minister. And terms of helping

:53:40.:53:43.

businesses, with a minister care to comment on police money that the

:53:44.:53:47.

government is funny to abolish first industries and replace them with...

:53:48.:53:58.

? Is not a measure contained in this bill, but let's be clear. As a

:53:59.:54:04.

consequence of this bill, the UK's competitive position has been

:54:05.:54:12.

strengthened. Some 20% to 80%. Amide I am delighted to say that the

:54:13.:54:18.

opposite -- part, said the not consider. I like to thank Honorable

:54:19.:54:21.

members on both side of the House for this scrutiny of this bill. In

:54:22.:54:25.

particular, I like to thank member of the public committee... And just

:54:26.:54:34.

nine-hour. This smooth and efficient running was no doubt in part due to

:54:35.:54:41.

the support. My honourable friend will... I also like to thank the

:54:42.:54:47.

humble members for the opposition but we did not always agree,

:54:48.:54:53.

especially on the needs for a fair number of reviews, I am forever for

:54:54.:54:57.

their insightful and reasonable scrutiny. And for the gracious

:54:58.:55:00.

support where we did agree. Finally, I would like to take the economic

:55:01.:55:05.

secretary for their support and setting up the government gave. And

:55:06.:55:10.

my Honorable friend in the back benches for their contribution. Can

:55:11.:55:14.

conclude, this finance bill supports working people. It supports business

:55:15.:55:19.

and protect our public finances. MRC Nextel for and securing the

:55:20.:55:22.

countries economic security. I therefore commend it to the House.

:55:23.:55:36.

Is a mixed finance bill. There are some measures within it forwards the

:55:37.:55:42.

benches agree. The changes on personal allowances, the welcome

:55:43.:55:49.

increase in the annual investment allowance, the surcharge on banks,

:55:50.:55:55.

the encouragement of more to be spent on research and development,

:55:56.:56:03.

the provisions of that interest, and the anti-avoidance provisions for

:56:04.:56:08.

enterprise investment schemes, venture capital trust and controlled

:56:09.:56:15.

foreign companies. But there are some wrong priorities this this

:56:16.:56:20.

bill. In no particular order I say to the House. On inheritance tax,

:56:21.:56:26.

they were the members were not so to hear me say that in the that I said

:56:27.:56:31.

earlier. A giveaway to the most well-off in our society. The cutting

:56:32.:56:42.

of the race of corporation tax and a low tax regime competition to cover

:56:43.:56:52.

up the failures on productivity. The lowering of the bank levy. The

:56:53.:57:01.

prison that we debated tonight on vehicle excise duty, which take us

:57:02.:57:06.

backwards. They favor gas guzzlers and they penalize the less severity

:57:07.:57:18.

vehicles. The tax take, journalists, 617-18 years ago,. The

:57:19.:57:28.

step backwards on the climate change levy, indicating that this

:57:29.:57:34.

government has lessened its commitment and could no longer

:57:35.:57:43.

accept claim to be the greenest of the government ever. That change on

:57:44.:57:46.

the climate change levy one of the host of changes being made of, or

:57:47.:57:50.

which have been made by this government. Which indicates that it

:57:51.:57:54.

is not serious about our environment. Would disagree with the

:57:55.:58:01.

changes on the direct recovery of debt, that is where HMRC to take

:58:02.:58:04.

money out of your bank account without a court order. And they are

:58:05.:58:10.

doing that because they find, and so many people do, that the court

:58:11.:58:16.

system is costly and slow. Rather than change the core system for

:58:17.:58:21.

which they are responsible, they simply introduce a different role

:58:22.:58:24.

for themselves. And they have been the same thing in Clause 48 of this

:58:25.:58:29.

finance bill with interest on judgment that. OneWorld for them,

:58:30.:58:35.

one rule for the rest of us. At the one the government that they have

:58:36.:58:38.

been straining our Constitution. We have dozens of government amendments

:58:39.:58:45.

for the report states. Tabled late last week. About 75 cents a

:58:46.:58:49.

government amendments stretching over 40 pages on highly technical

:58:50.:58:56.

matters. Wish I suggest that they are not entirely sure what they are

:58:57.:59:03.

doing. And when I think I'll be right in saying is that the longest

:59:04.:59:07.

standing order in living memory in terms of the changes on the English

:59:08.:59:12.

balls issue that we face this week. Not a great way to proceed in

:59:13.:59:17.

dealing with our Constitution. And then we see the potential

:59:18.:59:22.

constitutional tussled with the House of Lords. And the tax credits.

:59:23.:59:29.

Brought about by this governments decision to proceed with a

:59:30.:59:34.

fundamental change the tax credits, which will cost working families

:59:35.:59:41.

thousands of pounds to proceed by using a data storage and shipment,

:59:42.:59:45.

rather than putting it in this finance bill which is before us

:59:46.:59:49.

tonight, and clearly this finance bill, like all finance bills, would

:59:50.:59:53.

have never gone near the House of Lords. This government tried to box

:59:54.:59:57.

clever by putting the tax credits changes in eight statutory

:59:58.:00:02.

instrument, and they have been caught swimming without trucks when

:00:03.:00:09.

the tide went out. It is a constitutional tussle. That we did

:00:10.:00:12.

not need if they have put those provisions in the finance bill. And

:00:13.:00:16.

we need to see this finance bill in the context of the economy. It is

:00:17.:00:23.

great news that unemployment is up, albeit that many of those jobs, too

:00:24.:00:27.

many of them are low-paid and insecure. It is great that we have

:00:28.:00:33.

not lost the economic growth and economic growth and stand outside

:00:34.:00:39.

London and the South Eads at last. But, before the benches opposite is

:00:40.:00:44.

start sharing too much, there are ill winds blowing domestically. The

:00:45.:00:49.

deficit on the balance of payment, 615% of GDP, the highest and to the.

:00:50.:00:55.

Inflation targets missed. Productivity style, which based try

:00:56.:01:00.

to mask with a change in the corporation tax rate. GDP per capita

:01:01.:01:05.

after six years of the conservative leading a government in this

:01:06.:01:09.

country, GDP per capita is still in recovery. Living standards are last

:01:10.:01:16.

very well starting to rise and the private sector, not in the public

:01:17.:01:19.

sector where they continued their praises, this government. Living

:01:20.:01:25.

standards stalled for five years because point of order. My

:01:26.:01:34.

understanding is that at the Reading abilities are bought was in the

:01:35.:01:36.

bill, not just a general done about the economy. What can you will on

:01:37.:01:49.

that? -- rule where Mac. I was listening close that's listening

:01:50.:01:53.

closely, but the thrust of the dumb is one order is correct. I should

:01:54.:01:57.

emphasize that it is not a debate about the area of grievances. This

:01:58.:02:04.

is a relatively narrow third reading about what it is in the bill. Upon

:02:05.:02:11.

which, I know the honourable gentleman will now dilate for the

:02:12.:02:16.

remainder two and a half minutes. Has not repurposed on my right, I

:02:17.:02:20.

was putting the finance bill and context of the economy and what it

:02:21.:02:26.

takes place. That is the words... I do think the context of the find

:02:27.:02:30.

that diamond finance bill is important because otherwise one

:02:31.:02:34.

cannot judge, I think, what did the provisions of the finance bill are

:02:35.:02:39.

adequate for the country in which we live. But there are two minutes

:02:40.:02:44.

left. Therefore the context have to be very vividly stated before we get

:02:45.:02:47.

on to be very vividly stated before we get onto. It will be Mr Speaker.

:02:48.:02:56.

But the national debt, up by 60% at the end of the tax year, what is

:02:57.:02:59.

this about protecting the next-generation? With the government

:03:00.:03:03.

has missed its target of five years on that. Have been privatizing that

:03:04.:03:07.

for the next generation in terms of student loans, cost of home buyers,

:03:08.:03:11.

we got a household debt bubble growing. This government has slashed

:03:12.:03:16.

public investment and substituting BFI. The measures in this bill will

:03:17.:03:21.

not be sufficient to address the problems our nation is facing. What

:03:22.:03:25.

we need is public investment, we need in housing, we need in energy,

:03:26.:03:28.

we need in energy, we needed and skill. This government has

:03:29.:03:33.

mishandled the economy, and there is trouble brewing, unless they change

:03:34.:03:36.

course. They should invest in infrastructure and skills. And the.

:03:37.:03:52.

Mr Speaker,... Barbara says, this finance bill is a disgrace to

:03:53.:03:57.

hard-working people. Mr Speaker, I always agreed with my wife. It is a

:03:58.:04:04.

deliberate sleight of the people of Scotland and will get no support

:04:05.:04:09.

from the S and P adventures. The government has once again denied the

:04:10.:04:18.

rifle exemption of the emergencies services. Once again, it is harming

:04:19.:04:24.

the environment, and once again it is favoring the rich.

:04:25.:04:33.

Thank you. There are 12 seconds remaining. No honourable member is

:04:34.:04:40.

getting her time is running out. The moment is arriving. I do believe we

:04:41.:04:46.

will have the votes. The question is that the bill now be read the third

:04:47.:04:56.

time. Say Aye. Of the culture is a noes. Division! Clear the lobby! --

:04:57.:05:05.

contrary. Order! The question is that the bill

:05:06.:07:12.

now be read the third time. Say Aye. On the conjurer is a noes. Tell us

:07:13.:07:17.

for the nose, Mr Jeff Smith. Order! The Aye to the right, 316. D

:07:18.:16:23.

noes to the left, 278. -- the. The Aye to the right to 316. The nose

:16:24.:16:34.

back to the left, 200 and The Aye haven't. Question is as on the order

:16:35.:16:46.

paper. The Aye haven't. Number six is also entitled. The question is

:16:47.:16:56.

asked on the order paper. I think the Aye haven't. Motion number 7

:16:57.:17:02.

also titled financial services and market. The question is as on the

:17:03.:17:12.

order paper. The Aye haven't. Number eight, entitled senior ports. The

:17:13.:17:22.

question is as on the order paper. The Aye have it.

:17:23.:17:30.

Wood of the leave of the house I propose to take motions and nine

:17:31.:17:41.

224. Big leap, I know. I am seeking to take the house with me, to

:17:42.:17:46.

gather. I have had in indication that the house will not be

:17:47.:17:51.

discontented with such in arrangement. The question is as on

:17:52.:18:03.

the order paper. I think the Aye have it. Order. We come now to the

:18:04.:18:12.

adjournment. Beg to move? The question is now that this house

:18:13.:18:19.

adjournment. Thank you Mr Speaker. I am delighted to have secured a

:18:20.:18:22.

debate on this very important issue following my motion number 223,

:18:23.:18:30.

calling time. At the end of June. I am trying to support for members

:18:31.:18:35.

across is how. Most pleased that so many members will stay to attend

:18:36.:18:43.

this debate. This is in indication that this isn't issue that affects

:18:44.:18:47.

constituents and every part of the United Kingdom. For my part, very

:18:48.:18:53.

quickly after the election I had a number of constituents matter with

:18:54.:19:00.

me about despair. They were unable to find peace and quiet in their own

:19:01.:19:07.

homes due to the calls during all hours of the days that evening. Live

:19:08.:19:13.

marketing calls, were quarter marketing calls and abandon silent

:19:14.:19:18.

calls. Do you want a conservatory? Was like to save money on gas,

:19:19.:19:24.

electricity, broadband and other things? Have you had and accident in

:19:25.:19:29.

eight years? Have you claimed PPI to which you are entitled to? Would you

:19:30.:19:35.

like to take out a ordinance? The list goes on and on. We know that

:19:36.:19:41.

such calls as well as being a nuisance are much more than that.

:19:42.:19:47.

They cause distress and anxiety. Particularly to the elderly in the

:19:48.:19:52.

vulnerable. They can simply not ignore the ringing phone. It is the

:19:53.:19:57.

single most important needs of friends and family keeping in touch

:19:58.:20:08.

with them. My constituency during the last few months the numbers of

:20:09.:20:12.

phone calls of those who are vulnerable, elderly, young people as

:20:13.:20:19.

well and those who at a disadvantage had been taking advantage of. Not

:20:20.:20:24.

only are they getting phone calls, they are losing money. Does the

:20:25.:20:29.

honourable lady feel that legislation needs to be put to

:20:30.:20:32.

ensure What I wanted, but a hundred must

:20:33.:20:41.

exist the fact that we know hard it is used and passed on. And leave the

:20:42.:20:47.

consumers would without any real control and their hard evidence that

:20:48.:20:52.

suggests that there are certain groups in society who are delivered

:20:53.:20:58.

the targeted. The air of ten people, said that the moment featured other

:20:59.:21:07.

daily lives. With one third found such a dating. The 6%, more than

:21:08.:21:12.

half saying they were discouraged from answering their phones. Make no

:21:13.:21:16.

mistake, the scale of this problem is huge and the affect on the lives

:21:17.:21:21.

of many of our constituents demands our attention. I am very grateful to

:21:22.:21:29.

the honourable lady forgiving way. I congratulate her on securing this

:21:30.:21:34.

debate. Many of these calls that affect all of our constituents of

:21:35.:21:39.

and down the country are actually originate from a broad. That she

:21:40.:21:45.

have any idea to have weekend there down on such nuisance calls from

:21:46.:21:52.

companies outside of this country, in addition to in this country as

:21:53.:22:00.

well? Suddenly, there is talk and cooperation, it would Ofcom, and

:22:01.:22:06.

looking at what do I European level. Beyond that and international level.

:22:07.:22:09.

I think is the case of knocking heads together and see how we can

:22:10.:22:12.

better regulate the data which leads this country. Registering with the

:22:13.:22:19.

telephone service, or DT PS, is the obvious first app for those who

:22:20.:22:25.

filled their are harassed by nuisance call. This service cannot

:22:26.:22:35.

stop all unsolicited call. And is best that the lady agree that this

:22:36.:22:40.

is an issue that particularly affect many other people. I know that my

:22:41.:22:45.

constituency is full of older people who are concerned about nuisance

:22:46.:22:49.

calls. The honourable gentleman is right. Old people in particular not

:22:50.:22:55.

only suffer more as and stress about this, but they do seem to be

:22:56.:23:00.

targeted, and an research confirms the. It is estimated by Ofcom that

:23:01.:23:09.

keep it -- DBS service can only stop about one third of nuisance calls.

:23:10.:23:12.

This up is because the issue of consent can be very confusing for

:23:13.:23:15.

consumers. Is not always clear that we have -- that may have given their

:23:16.:23:22.

consent to be passed on to other parties by checking or not checking

:23:23.:23:27.

a box in a form. In addition, Ki does make some progress on point? It

:23:28.:23:32.

is awfully a lack of clarity on the sheer range of other parties that

:23:33.:23:35.

may have agreed for the data to be shared with. As a result, those who

:23:36.:23:41.

register with TPS may still be subject to a barrage of nuisance

:23:42.:23:45.

calls. But perhaps most worrying, the evidence is Julie, Julie

:23:46.:23:54.

chilling. One and three of their service users, people who are in

:23:55.:23:58.

severe financial difficulties come, have received an unsolicited

:23:59.:24:03.

marketing call offering... And is absolutely shocking that unsolicited

:24:04.:24:11.

marketing calls from credit are encouraging household the prayer

:24:12.:24:17.

into a spiral problem debt. Before seeking advice, 50% of people said

:24:18.:24:21.

that they went on to take out further loans, barring an average of

:24:22.:24:28.

?980. That is not all. People who have already taken out loans are

:24:29.:24:35.

sinners who it -- significantly to the target -- targeted by calls.

:24:36.:24:40.

According to a report by the children's Society, 42% of people

:24:41.:24:45.

with a payday loan have content that -- were contacted at least once a

:24:46.:24:49.

day. In contrast, to only 11% of those who do not have a PD alone.

:24:50.:24:56.

And chillingly, over 1 million British adults say they have been

:24:57.:25:00.

tempted to take high interest credit, such as a payday loan as a

:25:01.:25:05.

direct result of an unsolicited marketing call or text. I would urge

:25:06.:25:11.

the Minister to use her influence to persuade... To before some grocery

:25:12.:25:17.

faculty on the non-solicited market of high risk credit products like

:25:18.:25:23.

payday loans. More must be done. Following the government action

:25:24.:25:33.

plans... A series of recommendations for government regulations and

:25:34.:25:36.

businesses focused on finding solutions that work within the

:25:37.:25:44.

existing legislative structure. This includes direct response ability,

:25:45.:25:47.

and also requiring business to show the numbers when they call. Ofcom

:25:48.:25:53.

wants all communication providers to stop charging the caller

:25:54.:26:00.

identification display. Only BT and Virgin now do so, but it is his hope

:26:01.:26:04.

that this can be secured from all providers to the forthcoming EQ

:26:05.:26:11.

framework review. Businesses need to make a public commitment to tackling

:26:12.:26:16.

nuisance calls. It is also important that consumers have much greater

:26:17.:26:20.

control over their personal data. Indeed, it is essential that if and

:26:21.:26:25.

when consumers give their consent to be contacted by companies, that it

:26:26.:26:29.

is clear to the consumer that he or she is doing so. And further, that

:26:30.:26:33.

it is easy for the consumer to revoke that consent, should they

:26:34.:26:42.

wish to. I am grateful for the ladies were given way. She him make

:26:43.:26:46.

a compelling speech on this on the subject. Does the honourable lady

:26:47.:26:50.

agree with me that it will be helpful indeed if every time someone

:26:51.:26:54.

made such a call, they were required to state exactly how they Akamai

:26:55.:26:59.

that information and on what basis they were relying on the consent of

:27:00.:27:06.

the person who they were reaching? I thank my honourable friend for his

:27:07.:27:13.

poor. Dashboard. Consumers are often targeted by nuisance call because at

:27:14.:27:19.

some point, they check the box, or they feel the box. A teeny tiny box

:27:20.:27:25.

at the bottom of a page of tiny writing. Was often the consumer does

:27:26.:27:29.

not even see. And this gives consent to companies to contact them by

:27:30.:27:34.

telephone and pass on their personal details to third parties. And of

:27:35.:27:40.

course, had already been mentioned, let's not forget the scam calls,

:27:41.:27:43.

with the goal is to defraud consumers. Work done by some local

:27:44.:27:48.

authorities suggest that as many as 15% of nuisance calls to potable

:27:49.:27:53.

customers are at in that scam calls. Another sign of the consumer and

:27:54.:27:58.

little control of the personal data. Who knows what it can land, as it

:27:59.:28:03.

passes to hands that are not always the scrupulous. Bashir grew me that

:28:04.:28:10.

is not only older adults who may be at risk, but also will people who

:28:11.:28:15.

have learning difficulties might be targeted by some of the scholars?

:28:16.:28:20.

Absolutely. Having there's a whole range of people in society who need

:28:21.:28:24.

the protection of the lot and tighter regulation in this area. A

:28:25.:28:29.

mobile phone users I'm escape this please stop. Many phone users are

:28:30.:28:34.

not aware that they can register their mobile with the TPS and only

:28:35.:28:41.

3% have done so. By all local authorities to doing so actually

:28:42.:28:44.

worked to help her techno bondable consumers. It is invested in ten

:28:45.:28:51.

call blockers, and affected local authorities in Scotland. About boxy

:28:52.:28:55.

guy or higher numbers of nuisance calls. To call blocking device

:28:56.:28:59.

ensures that only trusted sources can get through. And stops nuisance

:29:00.:29:04.

calls in their tracks, before the residence halls had even had a

:29:05.:29:10.

chance to bring. One consumer, one consumer has had just over 2000

:29:11.:29:16.

calls a block and a 4 month period. Bawled this is to be applied, it is

:29:17.:29:21.

a disgrace that anyone households would be subjected to such a barrage

:29:22.:29:28.

of nuisance calls. I think the Honorable manner forgiving way. That

:29:29.:29:35.

she agreed to meet with me that telling a call to move them from the

:29:36.:29:40.

list should be enough to not call you any more? Absolutely. The

:29:41.:29:45.

difficulty though is the that your personal data is out there among a

:29:46.:29:51.

host of other organizations who will further continue to pester you. It

:29:52.:29:56.

is essential that the government determine whether the rule how I

:29:57.:30:02.

data is collected, and use. We must get the balance straight between

:30:03.:30:07.

enabling these -- addition business to carry out marketing activities,

:30:08.:30:10.

where consumers have given their consent for the data to be used, and

:30:11.:30:15.

the abuse of data by a stupid list business and. How also is the

:30:16.:30:21.

government to write a campaign to ensure that companies know the

:30:22.:30:24.

responsibilities when it comes to marketing calls and text and

:30:25.:30:29.

consider how future legislation to tackle nuisance to marketing. In

:30:30.:30:39.

terms, what my Honorable friend -- what my humble friend... To the

:30:40.:30:49.

cause of the Scottish... Commission check charities recognise their duty

:30:50.:30:57.

to the bondable? This should include all organizations who may choose to

:30:58.:31:02.

use cold calling as one of their tools. Senior executives need to be

:31:03.:31:07.

more -- made more response was for the actions of the company. Why the

:31:08.:31:10.

government has committed funding to an awareness campaign, more action

:31:11.:31:14.

is required and that is in my view an important role here for the

:31:15.:31:18.

financial contact authorities. It is time that the response ability for

:31:19.:31:22.

this was no longer placed so heavily on the victims of nuisance calls,

:31:23.:31:26.

and businesses who engage in this practice should be held more

:31:27.:31:29.

accountable for the genuine distress and anxiety they cause to consumers.

:31:30.:31:41.

Well I am very grateful. I thank my honourable friend for calling this

:31:42.:31:47.

important debate on nuisance calls. It is interesting that in the last

:31:48.:31:53.

Parliament, the issue of nuisance calls was raised a great deal by

:31:54.:32:04.

Mike Crocker. Sadly, no longer in this house, but I have to say that

:32:05.:32:12.

while I miss Mike on many levels, I have to say without wishing any

:32:13.:32:17.

disrespect that I bought the honourable ladies speech that the

:32:18.:32:21.

issue of nuisance calls it has a very worthy new champion from

:32:22.:32:26.

Scotland. I thought her speech was very comprehensive and also very

:32:27.:32:31.

well-balanced because while she called for quite rightly further

:32:32.:32:35.

action, she did acknowledge that there has been some action in the

:32:36.:32:41.

recent past. It goes without saying, Mr Speaker, but I was a

:32:42.:32:47.

anyway, that tackling nuisance calls is a priority for us. It is an issue

:32:48.:32:51.

that I have worked on for several years now. It is a very difficult --

:32:52.:32:56.

difficult problem to tackle. I have go with the honourable lady said in

:32:57.:33:00.

her remarks about the particular petitions nature of nuisance calls

:33:01.:33:03.

when it falls elderly or vulnerable people at home, who have a course

:33:04.:33:09.

more likely to suffer from display in terms of being at home with the

:33:10.:33:13.

phone is ringing. Is very important that we do all we can, where it loud

:33:14.:33:24.

other contributions to this debate. He may recognise that I get from

:33:25.:33:31.

constituents, a particular elderly constituents, who are talking about

:33:32.:33:36.

the bottle lived of the phone being a real anxiety for them. And talking

:33:37.:33:41.

about getting rid of that phone line from their home. By Mac is exactly

:33:42.:33:48.

the point. For many elderly people, that phone is their lifeline, not

:33:49.:33:52.

only are they home a by these calls, but obviously they want in many

:33:53.:33:55.

cases to answer the phone because they do not know whether the cause

:33:56.:33:59.

going to be important. They want to be able to use their phone as freely

:34:00.:34:03.

as possible to contact loved ones and indeed additional support

:34:04.:34:11.

services. That is why, about two years ago, I started to co-ordinate

:34:12.:34:16.

the action of being taken about nuisance calls, calling together the

:34:17.:34:19.

two regulators and the information Commissioner and Ofcom, as well as

:34:20.:34:23.

numerous stakeholders, including the telephone companies, but also the

:34:24.:34:30.

ISPs and many other charities and campaigning groups. Again, I would

:34:31.:34:34.

echo what the honourable lady said in her excellent speech, which is we

:34:35.:34:38.

do have to strike about. We do have to read remember what we are talking

:34:39.:34:42.

about nuisance call that underneath the blade that we are talking

:34:43.:34:46.

about, there does lie a legitimate business in this country of decent

:34:47.:34:51.

businesses wanting to make appropriate marketing calls. In many

:34:52.:34:57.

cases, having proper consent to do that.

:34:58.:35:12.

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