Browse content similar to 09/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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of staff who wishes to observe the two-minute silence will do so. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Order! Urgent questions. Thank you Mr Speaker, will the Secretary of | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
State to provide on set for the urgent question which I have given | :00:12. | :00:19. | |
him notice? Thank you very much Mr Speaker. It is really great that the | :00:20. | :00:30. | |
home Secretary cannot be with us. They are in Brussels. The government | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
believes that police funding must be allocated on a base of a modern | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
transport BOOING transparent formula. The current arrangements | :00:38. | :00:45. | |
and I think that we would agree are unclear, out of date, and unless | :00:46. | :00:57. | |
they are. National police chief, have all called for a revised model. | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
The issue around the current formula is well known. The right honourable | :01:03. | :01:16. | |
member agreed to review the formula, sadly it was not done. The home | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
affairs select committee have all argued for a new formula as well. | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
During the last Parliament Mr Speaker, my predecessor announced | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
that the government will publish a new formula, and we went into | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
consultation. That consultation closed in September which have not | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
seen responses. Since then we had been working with forces around the | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
country on the principle of how the budget can go for the. In this | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
process, I am sad to say there was a error made on the data that has been | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
used. It does not change the principles. It was never indicative, | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
we recognise that this has caused a great deal of concern for police | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
across the country. I regret this mistake and I apologise to the | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
house. I also apologise to the 43 authorities that I wrote to during | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
the extended consultation period as part of the review. Mr Speaker, | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
because it is for other reasons, the government was to delay the changes | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
for 2016 and 2017 as we have previously intended. It is essential | :02:34. | :02:45. | |
that we come to a fair formula that is transparent and mastered by | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
demand and is supported by the police. So, the government will | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
continue to listen and consider the next steps in conjunction with the | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
police leaders. I will update the house in due course. The perform of | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
the police funding is something that we should all support. We will bring | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
it forward, but we are delaying the process at the present time. Thank | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
you Mr Speaker, can I thank you for granting the question and I think | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
the Minister for his answer. I would like to commend the Minister to be | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
the first policing minister in years to tackle the issue of police | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
funding was needed to be addressed. Last week the home affairs select | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
committee took evidence on the formula. The newly received was | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
damning. Last Wednesday, 34 members of this house took part in a debate | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
on this subject based on the old criteria. Last Friday in a letter to | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
the police crime commissioner, the home office admitted that the | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
proposed funding for Miller was based on the wrong data. According | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
to the previous formula, two thirds of the police forces would have | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
gained from the proposals and a Florida would have lost from it. Now | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
41 forces will lose out. Now they will lose out again. The | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
Metropolitan police were expecting to lose a but it appears they are | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
now set to gain or possibly lose a different amount. Another was set to | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
lose the 700,000 by last week but they are now set to lose to play 4 | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
million. This entire process has been described as police and crime | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
commissioners and others as unfair, unjust, and flawed. What started off | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
with good intentions is rapidly descending into... To call it a | :04:46. | :04:57. | |
shambles will be charitable. There are people who are taking the | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
government to court. Ditto what has happened, will the Minister agree to | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
a number of suggestions? -- given what has happened. Police forces and | :05:06. | :05:15. | |
others have spent a inordinate amount of time and effort on this | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
subject. I support the delay. But will he go one step forward and | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
establish a panel consisting of experts who understand the | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
importance of sharing data and are more competent of understanding | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
mathematics and can count. This is a defining moment for policing. Last | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
week in the dispatch box, he said that he was proud to be the Minister | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
of responsibility for the best police force in the world. Now it is | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
his chance to show it by engaging with the police service. This | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
formula will last a long time, if the pending formula is to last as | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
long as the other formula that it must be there just and workable. Mr | :06:04. | :06:15. | |
Speaker, it seems to be very popular in parts of the United Kingdom. What | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
I would want to do is to make sure that the house is aware of the many | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
things that the honourable gentleman has been. -- has said. I've listen | :06:28. | :06:39. | |
carefully at the evidence, not everybody was unhappy, but on the | :06:40. | :06:48. | |
basis of what I have said today, we will listen carefully, get it right, | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
and make sure that the mathematics is right so that I am not in this | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
embarrassing situation again. The right honourable gentleman, my | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
parliamentary neighbour who initiated this urgent question, were | :07:04. | :07:12. | |
met by the Minister not too long ago when we discussed this question. Can | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
my honourable friend tell the house how he would describe a fairness, | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
and how he would describe the schedule, the time schedule of this | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
new process. It is very important that police and crime commissioners, | :07:29. | :07:37. | |
note quite the context in which they will be setting their budgets in the | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
spring. Can I thank my honourable friend for his comments. It was a | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
good meeting and I'd promised to listen. I hope that in the response | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
that I'm given today, it shows that we have listened. The formula for | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
2016 and 2017 will be based on the existing formula. There will be a | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
lot of work, and a lot of listening and understanding as to what the | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
demand are, to get us out of these difficult financial situation and we | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
are in a cell that we will think it is fair and that we will not be in | :08:12. | :08:20. | |
the position that we are in today. Mr Speaker, the first thing that the | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
Minister should do is apologise to the police service for a shambles | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
process replacing and unfair for Miller with another. Withholding | :08:31. | :08:39. | |
vital information, then publishing the wrong information. Can I ask him | :08:40. | :08:48. | |
to go one step further, last Wednesday he dismissed all concerns | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
over his new funding formula. 48 hours later it was revealed that he | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
got it wrong and published the wrong data, with funding allocations | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
gearing up to 181 million up to 31 losers. When did he know that? What | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
did he know, and when did he know what? Mr Speaker, a conservative PCC | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
summed it up on behalf of the police service. We have lost all trust of | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
the process. Can I therefore say to the policing minister that he should | :09:24. | :09:31. | |
abandon the process, which he has agreed to do. As opposed by the | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
police and crime ministers, to start fresh, which I hope he has agreed to | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
do. Act in a open and transparent way and published all data and to be | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
overseen by and independent garden party, perhaps the national audit | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
office whistles are no longer confident in the home office. The | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
third and final apology that he should give as to the public. The | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
first duty of any government is the safety and security of their people. | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
They expected to act accordingly when it comes to the country and | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
policemen. This would be laughable if it was not so serious. I say with | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
in all sincerity to the police minister and the home Secretary get | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
a grip and get it right! I think the house will be disappointed in the | :10:27. | :10:37. | |
told. -- I was informed on Friday, this is the first opportunity that I | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
have had to inform the house of the situation. At the end of the day, I | :10:41. | :10:52. | |
was not told, the first I knew was Friday. We will make sure as the | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
goal for the Mr Speaker, that we have a fair process. That is only | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
fair. I have apologised, and I will do so if necessary. But I do not | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
apologise on his attitude because I feel that he got it wrong anyway. I | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
want to congratulate Tony Hawk and his team for uncovering this terror. | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
Would the Minister confirmed to my constituents and all those that | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
reviewing this situation he should also take full account for the | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
impact of role policing and the impact of tourism for policing | :11:35. | :11:47. | |
caused? -- cost by Mac Mr Speaker, I apologise. The decisions as to | :11:48. | :11:56. | |
Wirral and other measures in the formula is exactly what we were | :11:57. | :12:04. | |
trying to do. -- rural. It was much of the rural constituencies that | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
were upset with the formula. Will get it right. Late last week the | :12:08. | :12:15. | |
police commissioner and the chief of police informed me that the | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
settlement was very good. 48 hours later, they were told that the whole | :12:21. | :12:37. | |
thing was wrong. Now they have lost a ?13.1 million. Is there any | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
occasion when in this government, this Tory government, ministers | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
consider resigning because of it all mighty mass of that they have taken | :12:48. | :12:58. | |
part in? Firstly can I congratulate on the reduction of crime. They have | :12:59. | :13:06. | |
not lost anything because it wasn't indicative proposal, no money was | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
allocated. And as usual of the honourable to them and get it wrong | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
again. -- as usual the honourable Guzman gets it wrong again. There | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
was some ?2 million under the formula. Now there is about ?10 | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
million. Does my honourable friend agree that although the force will | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
appreciate the frank apology that he has given, what it now requires is | :13:36. | :13:43. | |
some form of reassurance that whatever they will get it would be | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
given with sensitivity? I am always conscious of the morale of the | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
officers, that is why I say that I am proud to be the police minister | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
of the best police force in the world. Can I say to mind right | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
honourable friend that no money has gone missing from North Wales, it | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
was in indicative proposal and no money was likely to go until the | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
decision was made. The existing formula will continue for the extra | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
year while we do the rest of the proposal. The police force has | :14:16. | :14:28. | |
suffered drastically because of the cuts that have occurred. Debates | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
have been held over the West Midlands position. He has previously | :14:34. | :14:41. | |
accepted, I believe the unfairness of what occurred because of the | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
previous formula, would he bear all of this in mind and let us hope it | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
will be a fair settlement for the West Midlands police force? Mr | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
Speaker, usually when the honourable Guzman stands I disagree with most | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
of things he said. This time I will not. I think it needs to be fair and | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
we will delay the process of that we can get it right. Could my right | :15:11. | :15:18. | |
honourable friend confirmed that he will carry on meeting with all of | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
the lecture MPs to find a fair settlement for them? Can I | :15:25. | :15:33. | |
congratulate all of the MPs for the consideration of meeting with me and | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
all parties listening to what we were proposing. They came forward | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
with their own ideas which also helped with the decision that we | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
have made to delay the process. The Commissioner will be taking 1.3 | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
billion out of the Metropolitan police budget. Can administer now | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
the left how much they need to save or keep, and what bearing that has | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
all the amount that he has made today in the context of the | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
borrowing and here in London? That is a matter for the Commissioner, he | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
is the elected commissioner and we will wait for his proposal on what | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
he decides. However, no decision is made, it has not been announced, the | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
funding formula will be announced in December. That is what I announced a | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
few minutes ago. Thank you very much Mr Speaker. May I welcomed the | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
statement that this process that it will be delayed, and thank him that | :16:36. | :16:44. | |
they have engaged colleagues. Is it not the case that while there are | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
problems with the existing formula, it will always be difficult to | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
adjust between different forces in and environment were spending | :16:54. | :16:55. | |
reductions are being found by force is already which will mean that some | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
forces will have to face double cut. Does that not therefore argue that | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
there will be a Synod delays? I think we need to sit down now that | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
we have made decisions. What was quite clear, is that we needed to | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
make a decision to pause so that we get it right and that is the | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
important thing. Mr Speaker, is he aware of the amount of time and | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
effort that was wasted in the summer. They were due to lose 24.9 | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
million the biggest loser in percentage terms. Is the problem for | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
this shambles is because he did not provide the lead to the police and | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
crime Commissioner so that they could dissect it and that we can | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
have a debate about it? I had a very good meeting with the MPs, I thought | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
it was a good meeting. We listened and listen carefully. The reason for | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
the problem here is that data was not transferred across. It was a | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
statistical error and the Department. Mode is the | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
responsibility to pay that I am responsible for that and that is the | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
way it should be? And I commend my honourable friend for coming to the | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
house and giving and apology. Would we met London MPs and they | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
complained about the previous formula and that there were some | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
things that London undertakes. Can he get a guarantee that he will be | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
transparent and recognise the demand for those events and the London | :18:44. | :18:52. | |
settlement? London is one of the greatest in the world. It has | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
particular policing issues which have to be addressed. One of the | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
reasons we are positing is to make sure, absolutely sure, that all the | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
different of funding are done correctly and that they have the | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
resources that they need. Thank you Mr Speaker. They sent a letter on | :19:13. | :19:22. | |
Thursday. Is the Minister on a sleep telling us that he was not made | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
aware of the contents of the letter until Friday? Order! Order! I can | :19:26. | :19:34. | |
entirely understand the rational of what the honourable Lady is | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
inquiring. Can I say that I should not -- no one should insert the word | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
honestly into any questions. The assumption has to be that every | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
member in this house is always on the. We did not accuse each other of | :19:51. | :19:59. | |
honesty or make it seem as much. I think it is useful to new members to | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
get to grips of the new procedures. That and recognising that the debate | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
goes to the chair, therefore we do not use the word you and so on. I | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
hope that is regarded as hell. The minister. -- I hold that is regarded | :20:14. | :20:30. | |
as well. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I commend my right honourable friend | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
for halting the process of. Can I also put in a plea for the police | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
who had been at the lowest end of the funding for many years. Mr | :20:42. | :20:55. | |
Speaker, one advantage of being here today and making the statement that | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
I have made is starting the process again and everybody will not sleep | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
the put in the place, and my honourable friend has done very | :21:04. | :21:11. | |
well. The minister said that he hoped the West Midlands will be | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
treated unfairly, is he aware that under the existing funding formula | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
he is maintaining, the West Midlands have been hit very hard with cuts | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
over 100 years. What is he going to do over the next period via he has | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
been paused to ensure that they will not be hit again? What is he going | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
to say to the Chancellor to ensure that police forces are treated | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
fairly? The reason that we are tangibly funding is to get a fairer | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
and lesser paid system. -- left Opec. The form below will be in | :21:54. | :22:08. | |
place for another year. -- formula. Can I think my honourable friend for | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
his integrity and honesty and responding the way that he has. When | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
he comes to contemplate the future funding, what he make sure that not | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
only the money is considered carefully but the freedoms that | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
exist for small rural forces to work with other forces nearby. Mr | :22:30. | :22:37. | |
Speaker, my honourable friend makes and important point, alongside the | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
funding from the review was the capability review which is being run | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
by the chief. Some of it will be done by the cheese and some of it | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
will be done by the Regents. As I have always said, we can often do | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
things better if we do it together. I think folks should listen to | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
that. I welcomed the ministers apology today. How can my | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
constituents and my police and crime commissioners have any confidence | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
that when the home office undertake this formula, in a and 2017 that the | :23:09. | :23:19. | |
Minister will get it right this time -- 2016. I think we'll make sure | :23:20. | :23:27. | |
that the formula is looking very carefully. We'll be looking at | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
recommendations as well. What ever happens, this formula will change so | :23:33. | :23:40. | |
that it is fair for everybody. Thank you Mr Speaker, can I congratulate | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
my right honourable friend the Minister for instigating the police | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
funding formula review, something that of course was promised by the | :23:49. | :23:57. | |
party opposite, but never delivered. In positing this process in which is | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
in inevitability cannot urge them not to wait too long, because many | :24:02. | :24:09. | |
of those in sparsely populated communities have felt seen off for | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
many years. They would like to see the formula amended in a transparent | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
and opaque way and and hopefully a way that will restore the balance | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
that they see and police funding. Mr Speaker, one of the reasons why this | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
funding for global is not changed by the previous administration or any | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
administration is because it is so damn difficult. I know that it is | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
not parliamentary language but it is true. The fact that it was hard was | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
not in excuse not to do it but we do need to get it right. | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
Can I welcome the Minister's statement today but he must realise | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
the buck stops with him not official. I find it remarkable that | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
it took 24 hours for him to know about this problem though his | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
officials did not tell him. Does he not realise now that the police and | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
police commissioners and the police family that the home office has lost | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
all credibility on this process? It is not about having time to take | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
questions from the select committee chair and have independent oversight | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
of this process. I do not accept that the whole police family has no | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
faith in the home office or in the. He's absolutely right to say that in | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
minister oversight I am as possible which is why I have not blamed and | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
individual civil servant or any department at the end of the day it | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
is my wrist bones ability which is why I am standing here. I warmly | :25:37. | :25:45. | |
welcome my right of friend's approach today in his apology to the | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
House. Is characteristic of the trans parent way he has approached | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
this entire settlement. When he brought back characteristic | :25:55. | :25:56. | |
transparency to the meeting of cross party meeting between Lancashire | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
MPs, we were hoping that Lancashire would see a fairer formula. It | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
cannot be right when budgets are going up in some budgets are going | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
down that the formula is fair. Every police force should be equally | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
measurable across the country. Can I thank my honourable friend for his | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
comment. It was a really good meeting we had any deputy speaker's | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
office. I promise to listen and I will continue to listen. At the end | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
of the day there will be winners and losers with any change of any | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
funding formula which is why some of the forces that are going to do very | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
well seemed to be quite quiet with the home affairs select committee | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
but on the other hand I understand exactly where they're coming from. A | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
good many colleagues are still seeking to catch my eye and I'm to | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
accommodate all of them to have any realistic aspect of succeeding in | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
doing so without jeopardising the square business will require brevity | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
both from back benches and from the Minister. We can look for the | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
provision of a textbook to a distinct former minister Mr David | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
Hansen. Can I thank the Minister for the named check it is complicated, | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
but the fact is North Wales police are still now went to be ?10.5 | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
million were planning assumptions left than they thought they were | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
going to be. How can the Minister give confidence to North Wells | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
police about the shortfalls of the have. I have not announced the 16-17 | :27:18. | :27:27. | |
budget. It will be in December. The honourable gentleman knows as a | :27:28. | :27:29. | |
former colleague in this department that we have to wait for the formula | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
and decision in December. Can I thank my right on over and for his | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
candour during the course of today? And I also encourage them to work | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
with the police crime commissioners to ensure that their efficiencies | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
can be made to bring ensure that they are being changed in different | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
ways. There are more efficiencies that can be done without affecting | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
front-line policing and some of the technology coming through is going | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
to aid from I'm policing not least body worn video cameras but I intend | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
to work with all the 43 police and crime commissioners and the chief | :28:04. | :28:05. | |
constables and in particular Devon and Cornwall as they have been very | :28:06. | :28:15. | |
good set statisticians. Residents are already... Those living in large | :28:16. | :28:24. | |
urban areas and in doing. Woody ensure the new Lamela takes into | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
consideration the extra cost of two thirds of Wales especially the extra | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
infrastructure required to ensure an emergency response that is effective | :28:35. | :28:43. | |
as? That is exactly what we will do. As one of the Lancashire MPs | :28:44. | :28:51. | |
that was very appreciative of the Minister's meeting we had a few | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
weeks ago, can the Minister assure us that when Mike is being | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
considered that we will not as my honourable friend from Braswell said | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
the a loser in this process. As someone who has direct first-line | :29:06. | :29:07. | |
experience cannot also think him for the open and honest way he has | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
approached this process with all of us? I sometimes get myself in | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
trouble year for being too honest and forthright so thank you very | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
much to my honourable friend for those comment. I cannot promise | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
anything as we start a new process, but what we will do is make sure | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
that I sit with all of the constituencies and all of the forces | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
to make sure we get the best possible we can with the modern | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
formula as I say that will be suspended for a year. Thank you Mr | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
Speaker. Derma was last month ranked the highest performing force in the | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
country. Is very worrying that there might be a ?10 million cut. At the | :29:49. | :29:57. | |
Minister is plain whether the delay means that there'll be cuts in the | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
Autumn Statement followed by further cuts an 18 months' time. The purpose | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
of standing here making a statement is saying that Durham would have had | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
with the no formula won't happen because actually they're going to | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
stick with their original formula. We will have to wait for the Autumn | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
Statement, Mr Speaker. The Minister will be aware that North Yorkshire | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
is the largest policing area in England. The force currently gave | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
approximately ?8 million in the current formula for its Brownlie. | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
Can the Minister assure me that police and crime Commissioner who | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
did a fantastic job, will be properly consulted and listened to | :30:40. | :30:41. | |
during this welcome extended Ross says? Can I play tribute to North | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
Yorkshire and I understand fully the pressures they are. One of the | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
reasons I got into this situation if I was working with 43 police and | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
crime commissioners and they were telling me exactly what is going on | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
but I will continue to do that. I am sure the Minister will join me in | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
congratulating derma believed on being designated the most | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
outstanding police force by her Majesty's inspector but does the | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
Minister realise his wife formula means we will have to face an | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
additional ?10 million and cut. If that happens, it is a reduction in | :31:19. | :31:28. | |
police numbers from 1720 ten to 850 and 2020. Out did he expect Durham | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
police to continue believing? Can I respectfully digested go back to the | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
drawing board, recalibrated formula and come up with something that | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
makes sense? I have tried to be very careful in not responding to be bold | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
that probably were not listening to my statement. I have suspended it, | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
there am like the other 242 forces will work together for a new | :31:54. | :32:02. | |
formula. It is suspended. Thank you Mr Speaker. I congratulate I right | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
honourable friend on real looking at this issue. And well he commit to | :32:07. | :32:16. | |
speaking with Katie, the excellent police and crime Commissioner for | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
Sussex where crime has reduced when the new formula discussions take | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
place? Mr Speaker not only will I commit to speaking with the | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
excellent police and crime Commissioner, I left her 15 minutes | :32:30. | :32:37. | |
ago. LAUGHTER Mr Speaker what the Minister gave a | :32:38. | :32:46. | |
commitment to give due consideration to metropolitan district across the | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
board cuts have an absolutely devastating effect on authority that | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
Merseyside and other metropolitan district. We would have to make a | :32:56. | :33:04. | |
24.9% increase to make that up, the cut. We collect about .5 million, it | :33:05. | :33:14. | |
has a different impact because of lower tax rates. Could you please | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
give due consideration to that when we -- reconsidering? One of the | :33:18. | :33:28. | |
issues raised consistently is the present issue. That is not in my | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
hands, it is part of what we look at when we are doing the formula as we | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
go forward. Can I say, Mr Speaker, the precept does in some parts of | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
the country won a substantial part of the funding where in others it | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
does not. I promise I will keep a look on not. -- on that. I | :33:46. | :33:55. | |
congratulate my honourable Frank and I recognisably his commitment across | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
the country of attacking crime. Could you confirm to the House that | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
there'll be a very clear communication plan that will be said | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
to all the police forces and Cheshire police quite through as to | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
where milestones that will be required of them to finalise this | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
formula in months ahead for once and for all. We have time to look at | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
making sure that we consult across the board, making sure we work both | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
leak. In my statement I specifically said that we need to get agreement | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
from the cheese and the best League PVCs to make sure this will work -- | :34:32. | :34:40. | |
she's in the police commissioners. Endeavour sure we have faced the | :34:41. | :34:47. | |
fourth highest on crime, the fifth four burglary and seven and nine for | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
real threat from extremism. We have urban challenges but are funded | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
today as a rural forest. Even H MIC having knowledge that historic | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
underfunding has been a major issue for the forest. Under the new | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
figures or the old, Bedfordshire Hartley gained. Doesn't common sense | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
dictate there with a plot without formula on that basis and will it be | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
corrected? Can I fix my promontory neighbour, of course I know this | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
from it ageing the well even though it is not my County I am very | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
conscious of the pressures of Bedfordshire from the policing angle | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
and it is something we will make sure we look at going forward even | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
in more detail. Can I also congratulate my right of a friend | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
for his statement which he delivered with characteristic clarity and | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
integrity. Is the Minister agree with me that larger urban forces | :35:41. | :35:48. | |
such as Hampshire police deserve a revised funding formula so they can | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
be funded on the basis of need as well? At this date I cannot comment | :35:52. | :36:00. | |
on exactly how Hampshire is going to be funded or all they will get in | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
December. Can I congratulate Hampshire not only on their | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
excellent MPs but in my year extensively over the last few weeks | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
but also on board thinking and working with other emergency | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
services brilliantly well some of what other forces can look out | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
across the country. I welcome the Minister's apology and also his | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
decision to suspend the formula while the correct figures are | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
calculated copy even the scale of the error and given that last week | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
Lancashire was due to lose 25 million, today we're due to gained | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
16 million. Does he not knowledge that Lancashire was right to | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
maintain reserves to plan prudently for the future. I think I agree with | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
most of what the honourable Lady said but I do think it is an issue | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
that in the 43 authorities we have in England and Wales there are | :36:57. | :37:08. | |
reserves of ?2.1 billion. Mr Speaker, Northamptonshire has been | :37:09. | :37:09. | |
historically underfunded but despite that we have seen many innovative | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
new policing model come forward in the county. Will be minister commit | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
despite the delay to continue to provide funding for innovative new | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
models to come forward with? Verdana Mr is one of the most forward | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
thinking forces in the country and the work -- Northamptonshire, and | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
the work they're doing is significant. The police innovation | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
fund is exactly what my honourable friend is alluding to and that is | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
what the money is for. I hope that the Minister said about suspension | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
but under this error that will sleep would've had the fourth highest loss | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
across the UK of 15.5 million and it comes on top of the fact that | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
Cardiff already does not receive the same treatment as London, Belfast | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
and Edinburgh in support of its situation as a capital city. It but | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
that delete that particular towns it bases. Will be address that concern | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
that Cardiff is not getting the support for its policing that other | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
capitals are getting across the UK? Of course that is part of the review | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
that we will make sure and look carefully at what the honourable | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
gentleman has said. I have not of course you have not lost anything | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
because I have suspended the review. The news that the formula | :38:27. | :38:35. | |
was ungenerous to Derbyshire... Canada urge the Minister to stick to | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
his guns and pressed ahead and get a new formula as soon as possible? So | :38:40. | :38:48. | |
many experts outside and inside this house. I really do believe that we | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
need a new funding formula. That and I think we have a cross party | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
agreement and that is what we need to do. I did say there'll be winners | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
and losers and I apologise to Derbyshire for the delay. The police | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
and crime commissioners and two constables have made it clear that | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
budget cuts delivered to any revised form duly that formula will | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
fundamentally change policing? What is the vision and strategy for this | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
fundamentally change policing landscape and how will this | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
incorporate a possible loss of between five and 8000 police | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
officers in London and the possible loss of 1000 community support | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
officers with white Mr Speaker the --? That was based on where the | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
formula was not where my announcements are today. Policing is | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
changing and so is crime. That is something that we all will have to | :39:44. | :39:51. | |
address and understand. The likelihood of... While he is asleep | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
in bed and on this computer not while he is up around his house. I | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
commence my right on over and for responding to the urgent question | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
with his apology and he is right of course to say that the buck stops | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
with him, but I have heard from the exchanges today that the error but | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
discovered by one of the police authorities and therefore I'm | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
concerned agent that the error was made by the department at the first | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
place and be that the department did not uncover the error itself. This | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
has wider implications for the protocols used by the civil service | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
on all these funding formulas across the government. Will my right | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
honourable friend make sure that the lessons he is learning from this are | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
extended to other departments including education, health and all | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
the others with local funding formula was? We must make sure there | :40:40. | :40:48. | |
is confident in the did parchment, particularly the two I represent. | :40:49. | :40:55. | |
We're meeting with the secretary tomorrow. The Minister will be aware | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
that population growth creates challenges for the police, violent | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
crime which I represent has increased by it 18.5% over the last | :41:03. | :41:09. | |
year in my constituency. Will he in reexam using this formula not only | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
worked in an absolutely transparent way, because that is what is | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
critical to trust in policing by consent, and perhaps the digestion | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
made by my right on about friend, the chair of the select committee | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
but also take into account the account is created in the areas of | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
high population growth? One of the reasons we need a new or new age | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
because of the high population growth in the honourable lady's | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
constituency. That is why the formula needed to be changed and | :41:40. | :41:47. | |
because it was outdated. Can I join my honourable friend in thinking my | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
right on the offering for meeting with Lancashire MPs on a cross party | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
basis to discuss this issue allowing us to scrutinize in detail the | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
predicted changes and consequences and look at the formula in detail on | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
our police and crime commissioners who had confused us with much wider | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
issues over Belize cuts. He mentioned the meeting with a and the | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
ideas we submitted during that meeting. Kenny confirm those ideas | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
cannot be fully considered and incorporated following the delay he | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
had announced today? Fortunately the idea that came from the cross party | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
group did come in before the end of the consultations were part of the | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
consultation. Like the evidence that the home affairs select committee | :42:32. | :42:33. | |
and other things that have come forward that is part of the reason | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
why he we have delayed the data, misuse of the data clearly in the | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
wrong place is what the catalyst that created the situation but we | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
were arty listening and I think it is the best way to go forward. The | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
Minister will know that as it stands West Midlands police could lose 20 | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
million of his indicative budget. Can you give us an insurance today | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
that nothing on that scale will actually occur was not will anyone | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
be held responsible for the blunder and the delay in informing the | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
Minister wore our officials like ministers increasingly immune from | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
responsibility for their actions was ? I take for stock ability and am | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
fully responsibility for my actions. I cannot comment on what will happen | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
and what will be the announcement in December which will be based on an | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
existing one in formula and we will have to wait and see for the Autumn | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
Statement -- existing funding formula. The House needed an apology | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
for the statistical errors by the home office and we had one. Without | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
reservation from the Minister and we should welcome mat. What matters | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
more to me, is that when the result of the spending review are announced | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
in December is that forces like the Gloucestershire cause the very will | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
still have the resources they need to tackle serious crimes like drugs | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
and knives and very sad death resulting from both. Could my write | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
on over and give my constituents that assurance? He has done | :44:02. | :44:09. | |
fantastically well. It was a statistical error which has made me | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
make the decision that we came to today, but the reason for the change | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
in the formula was actually to adjust the anomalies we have heard | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
across the House today as how unfair the existing formula is. Is still | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
needs to be changed and we need to push some of that. With the two | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
constables in the PC sees copy -- the chief constables. What we have | :44:31. | :44:39. | |
heard today without there was not only in error in the formula but | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
also the home office. It seems a letter was sent on Thursday without | :44:44. | :44:45. | |
the Minister was not informed about until Friday which I think we all | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
agreed is unacceptable. Given the damage to the home office's | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
credibility, will he take the suggestions made by many that | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
they're now needs to be independent brought to the consultation process. | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
Clear simple answer please? Have already said when we do this the | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
typical analysis we will look were independent guidance on that to make | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
sure... That it's important. It will be as open as possible. It that is | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
not that is not that in the government do it when they were and | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
power for 13 years? We're doing it. They did not. And number of | :45:22. | :45:31. | |
inconsistencies with the process but the Minister has always ideas and | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
listening and continued to show that very much at the dispatch box and I | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
welcome the decision he made. Will he made. Willie also be consistent | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
to see into that with the recognition of London as the capital | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
city which must need a laugh as to the capital city find reflecting it | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
as a national hub for policing and criminality? Mr Speaker as I alluded | :45:50. | :45:59. | |
to this great capital that we are in today, that it needs and be funding | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
will rapidly that and will make sure that continues to so. This episode | :46:04. | :46:12. | |
raises serious concerns regarding the efficacy of the verification and | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
validation process and particularly in relation to the Minister not | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
being aware of that. Further into the statements that have been made, | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
with regard to that specific issue, but will the Minister be doing to | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
ensure that there is some independence and robustness and | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
credibility in the verification and validation process? On the first | :46:32. | :46:39. | |
point as I said earlier that I met with the secretary this morning and | :46:40. | :46:41. | |
we will be meeting with the home secretary went to returns tomorrow | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
to find out exactly what goes on in inquiries will continue. 12.8 | :46:46. | :46:53. | |
million from the wind police would not be a cut, it would be an act of | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
butchery that would previously damage the fine work of the coin | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
force which has recently seen an increase in violent crimes copy I | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
think we all admire the breathtaking lives but of the Minister who seeks | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
to shift the blame to the last Labour government of my honourable | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
friend on the front bench. Good you give us a clear account in language | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
we all understand how this was made so we can measure the inner top with | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
the that the home office has been found? I would like to welcome a | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
better question but clearly not. I was not passing the blame to anyone | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
but simply saying that I am being resides were doing something it did | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
not happen in 13 years of the previous administration. When have | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
not lost anything, no force have lost anything these are indicative | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
figures. What we need to make sure that we get the figures right at we | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
go forward. With the background of the lowest levels of police officers | :47:55. | :48:03. | |
since 1979, and her Majesty's Inspector of Gaza very describing | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
the force as inadequate, under the right data, homicide would have been | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
set to get to get additional five point ?7 million. Game you minister | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
assure me and my constituents that under any new formula homicide will | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
also get that additional sum of money? Of course I cannot do that. | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
What I do understand exactly where the honourable ladies coming from. | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
If we are going to pause look carefully at the funding formula and | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
make sure we get it right I am sure she will agree with me it has to be | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
fair. Across the 43 of authorities not to spare for homicide -- not | :48:39. | :48:48. | |
just there for homicide. Neither the Minister nor the government is in | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
control of the policing budget but standing there he does not seem to | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
understand how incompetent this is. In the case of the Met, the error | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
was in a sum of ?180 million. Can we at least have a full written at the | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
nation of how this first occurred and be told at the amount of money | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
wasted by the home office and the 43 forces and going through the | :49:13. | :49:20. | |
process? Mr Speaker, I find it fascinating that after listening to | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
all the other questions of the right honourable members that that was the | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
best the honourable gentleman could do. At the end of the day, Mr | :49:30. | :49:37. | |
Speaker, it is right and improper when mistakes are made at the | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
Minister stand at the dispatch box and says is going on. We will make | :49:41. | :49:47. | |
sure that the new process is as open and honest as possible especially | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
for London. Just before we come to point the ordered there is an | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
expectant house and the appetite is clearly great. I just want to say | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
two things. Following the Minister's observations. First, I am | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
genuinely grateful to the Minister of state who I have known for a very | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
long time. It does not surprise me that he has conducted himself with | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
courtesy. Secondly, because I think it is very important that our | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
proceedings and procedures are intelligible and amenable for people | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
beyond this place -- and meaningful for people beyond his place | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
observing, it is only right to say that this very welcome apology and | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
dedicated response to questioning by the Minister took place because | :50:34. | :50:43. | |
urging questions were submitted and because I granted an urgent | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
question. The home office itself declared in writing that the matter | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
was not urgent and clearly did not think that the urgent question | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
should be granted. It was entitled to its point of view, but I think | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
the House would concur that it suffered from the white material | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
disadvantage of being wrong. LAUGHTER | :51:02. | :51:10. | |
Point of order. I maybe wrong but I am not aware of any member of in | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
this place who is transgender. I have no problem with that, but we do | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
have many woman who came into this house at this election and we do not | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
have sufficient toilet in this place for female members of parliament. | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
Could I ask of you Mr Speaker you could look very carefully at this | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
and make sure we have sufficient toilets for women before we look at | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
people who are not even here yet. I thank the honourable Lady for point | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
of order and indeed for courtesy in getting a man's notice of it. I | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
mentioned a moment ago I thought it was important that our proceedings | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
and procedures should be intelligible. It might therefore be | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
helpful if I explain what I think is the context of any background to the | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
inquiry by the honourable ladies. Namely, reports in the media about | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
work that is being done by Professor Sarah Child on steps that can be | :52:08. | :52:15. | |
taken to make our Parliament... A more gender sensitive permit. It is | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
absolutely true that such work is being done. There are various | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
dimensions to the work and one part of it is looking at toilet | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
facilities. If memory serves me correctly, that is the only | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
reference to the issue, toilets, in terms of sensitivity, nothing beyond | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
that. But the scope is therefore professor child, supported by others | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
to look across the piece and to come to a view as to what would be good | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
for the House as they. He wiping tears right we do not jump the gun, | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
we let her do that work in the very studious and serious minded way that | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
somebody of her intelligence and background will do. I think she will | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
be alerted to the very proper point of order that the honourable lady | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
has raised. Can I say that if the honourable lady would like to | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
contact the professor herself or to write to the House of Commons | :53:15. | :53:16. | |
commission or to the Administration Committee on the very important | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
point she has made will be taken fully on board. I do not want to get | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
into a situation when one is at the stage prioritising this over that. | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
Let's look at it all, including her important point. Point of order Mr | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
Tom Drake. We have learned today from the template that for a | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
government department have agreed to cuts of 30% of their budgets | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
information released no doubt as part of the Chancellor's campaign to | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
get the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to agree to cut his | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
budget substantially. Mr Speaker, it is not information you would expect | :53:54. | :53:55. | |
us to hear urged in this place? When is the statement is delivered, | :53:56. | :54:10. | |
the honourable gentleman and the house will receive what I suspect | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
will be called a holistic view of the government is thinking and | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
plans. As a matter of course, I should have thought it better, that | :54:21. | :54:28. | |
specific details of individual agreements are first communicated to | :54:29. | :54:35. | |
the house. It may well be, that because of the numbers of people | :54:36. | :54:38. | |
involved in these discussions that things have filtered through into | :54:39. | :54:46. | |
the public domain, in a way, slightly less orderly than the | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
honourable gentleman of what a favour. On the vectors Gael, I think | :54:50. | :54:57. | |
this ranks pretty low, but I think and nevertheless for drawing our | :54:58. | :55:06. | |
attention to it. -- Richter scale. The BBC reported a story and that | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
nine new prisons would be built to replace jails. To my horror, one of | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
the president to be sold off, caused a great deal of concern to my | :55:19. | :55:33. | |
constituents. -- present secondly, the present minister only last week | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
and gave me in assurance that I would be the first -- brother the | :55:37. | :55:48. | |
place is not being sold, how on earth does the BBC makes such a | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
major mistake on and issue that affects my constituents considerably | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
and Heino can I get it on the record that it has been sloppy journalism | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
by the BBC? -- and how can I. First of all as people have noted, he is | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
the source of his own salvation. He asks me how he could set the record | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
straight, he has done just that! The honourable gentleman's point of | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
order reveals three things. First, he cares massively about prisons. He | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
is a global authority on the Victorian error. -- and he does not | :56:32. | :56:42. | |
want to put the boot into the BBC. Can I raise the point of order with | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
you that the backbenchers, on Friday and there were two debates on two | :56:47. | :56:54. | |
bills. He what every syllable in those speeches was in order or the | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
lives, and would not be allowed, some of the comments were peripheral | :57:00. | :57:07. | |
to the subject involves. This was a noncontroversial and on oppose the | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
bill. The second bill had allocated only just empowered to it. This was | :57:11. | :57:18. | |
a bill that offered advantages to patients and health services. This | :57:19. | :57:27. | |
was approved by members of this house, the member and defined expert | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
opinion. The only objection came from the government benches, who | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
spoke on behalf of of the pharmaceutical industry. Sadly, the | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
attempt to have a division on the bill and have a devotion, were | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
turned down and one of the resident just said, can I say, that what we | :57:46. | :57:55. | |
have here is the power of backbenchers against the fact that | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
big five are big sugar have a throat hold on this government. Nobody has | :58:01. | :58:08. | |
a throat hold on the chair of. I know that the honourable gentleman | :58:09. | :58:14. | |
will not suggest that for a moment. I would not be apprehensive of big | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
institutions, big people or people who think that they are big. They | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
are not bigger then the authority of the chair, rather I am in the chair | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
or one of my deputies who is performing the duties of. As new | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
members should know, the honourable sentiment is the author of a note | :58:35. | :58:45. | |
that says how to be a backbenchers. The chair is conscious of its duty, | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
to ensure the rights of backbenchers as a whole. We will keep and eye on | :58:52. | :58:59. | |
the link and relevant of speeches on these occasions. Rather the | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
honourable sentiment is present at the time or not, point of order. Can | :59:03. | :59:10. | |
I have your guidance and advice on incident that took place last week, | :59:11. | :59:22. | |
the incident took place at Manchester civil court. 40 to 50 of | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
my constituents were involved in a cave. When I arrived at the security | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
point I was told that I cannot the granted entry. I identified myself | :59:33. | :59:41. | |
as a member of Parliament. I was calm and courteous as always. After | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
about five minutes, a manager came and pointed his hand towards me and | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
said that I was not coming in and that I was told to leave and the | :59:49. | :59:57. | |
police were being called. I do not want to cause any trouble for | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
greater Manchester police but I did have a desire to join my | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
constituents is to support them in a court case. The I had eight quick | :00:05. | :00:12. | |
chat with the police who I -- I had a quick chat with the police and I | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
identified myself. They denied me the and He opportunity to support my | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
constituents. I am seeking your advice on this matter. He has made | :00:23. | :00:31. | |
clear based on what he has said to me and what he has articulated, his | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
concern about the manner in which he was treated on Friday. While I am | :00:38. | :00:45. | |
always keen to have the ability to represent people. The question on | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
whether the member of Parliament should be given access to a court of | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
law in support of constituents, is not a matter for me. It is a matter | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
on which it would be appropriate for me to comment if I was not present | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
and therefore privy to the instances. With that said, I make | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
two other observations, first the honourable sentiment has made his | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
point and put his concern on the record. I have a sort of sense, that | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
colleagues who know that they could be in a similar position, will | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
empathize with the honourable gentleman and from personal | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
experience over the last six months, I can confirm that he has always | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
been fast that he is in his courtesy. Courteous to a fold in his | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
dealings with the chair. Secondly, I think sometimes people not quite | :01:43. | :01:54. | |
with these circumstances or perhaps lacking experience, but anxious to | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
execute their duties in the most zealous way are on the side of | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
caution. That cost and sometimes make them think that it is easier to | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
say no man to say yes. I was not there and I make no criticism of any | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
individual, but personally I am very sympathetic to the honourable | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
gentleman, I think it is very regrettable that he has had to bring | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
the matter to the house. I think we will have to leave it there for | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
today. Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker, there was announcement on | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
Saturday as saying that everyone, will be given a legal light to | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
request a 10 megabits a broadband connection. This isn't issue of | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
importance for many businesses and people. Yet, no details were given | :02:44. | :02:52. | |
about how this will be exercised and who will deliver it, and who will | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
fund it. Can you advise me Mr Speaker, rather you have noticed | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
this subject or whether it is in order for government to be and | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
unaccountable press release? Let me say that the subject is not new. It | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
has been extensively debated over a period of. The question of the | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
adequacy or the superfast broadband access in urban areas and rural | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
areas. It seems to me that the distinction is between disclosing a | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
basic intent, and describing a detailed policy. There is nothing | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
particular and usual about the speeches around the country and | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
outside of the house, giving and indication on what they intend to. | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
If however, the government has is Pacific policy, which it proposes to | :03:52. | :03:59. | |
roll out that is different from what is existing, the house should be the | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
first to hear the policy and have the opportunity to question the | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
Minister upon it. I think, we have reached the happy conclusion of | :04:12. | :04:19. | |
point of order for today. I heard of somebody suggested that there was a | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
business question. Well, we will move to the main business, I think | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
to the programme a motion. Question The isn't that the Scotland bill | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
number two on the order paper... Does the honourable zone to men wish | :04:35. | :04:46. | |
to I rate? I indeed. Thank you Mr Speaker, we are profoundly | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
disappointed with the time that was available to discuss information for | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
the Scotland bill. There are over 100 amendments that you selected | :05:00. | :05:08. | |
this afternoon. That follows the 76 page document of amendments that | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
have been submitted from honourable members and of right honourable | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
members across this house. Mr Speaker, we have about two and a | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
half hours to debate the critical amendments on taxpayers and on the | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
Constitution. After that, we will probably have no less than two hours | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
to discuss the equally significant and imported welfare, and the rest | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
of the whole bill. We know how this place works, there will be divisions | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
and 20 minutes with this 18th-century practice. We are just | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
wondering when this house will start to enter into the 21st-century and | :05:50. | :06:01. | |
leave the 18th-century. How can this possibly be right that we have such | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
little time? Realistically we will only have about four hours maybe | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
three and a half. That as a little more than honourable member would | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
get, don't they know that this is 45 minutes. Madam Deputy figure, | :06:16. | :06:28. | |
Scotland is watching this proceedings. They do not understand | :06:29. | :06:37. | |
the this respect. We feel like Scotland has been giving a slap in | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
the face and told just to get on with it for whatever time this house | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
scenes the fit. Order! Order! The honourable sentiment is making some | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
extremely important point. He needs to be heard, he does need to be | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
heard. Not just outside of the chamber but inside this chamber. | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
Members will be quite a body speaks. Scotland is watching, they cannot | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
believe that we have been giving such a limited amount of time to | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
debate these critical and important amendment. That thing is, we have | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
had four days, we were surprised that we had all of this time. But | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
what a supreme loop waste of time. With a government that was semi and | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
gays in that debate. There bought 100 of amendments provided to the | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
government. They provided nothing and no specific commitments of their | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
own. They were in the reflecting states, and was more reflective than | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
the sock over the summer. The one thing that he did not do was | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
properly engaged this house. The committee stage of a bill... The | :07:52. | :08:02. | |
committee stage of this house should be the place the MMS are properly | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
debated, and considered, with the government engaged in the process. | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
And is not good enough to come here with hundreds of amendments and have | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
a limited time to actually consider the bill. It sells great disrespect | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
to this house and is not how you do business. We are at the committee | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
stage of this whole house, it is nothing other than a resting | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
exercised. We have to calibrate how we do business in this house. And is | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
not good enough that we spent all this time wanting to be listened to | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
and do not get enough time to discuss the amendments that are | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
important. We have hundreds of amendments that the government | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
decided to get engaged in this process, they told us that they are | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
necessary and that we need them. All of a sudden today, with this limited | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
amount of time available to us than there are hundreds of amendments on | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
the order paper. We will no longer have the opportunity to properly | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
scrutinize what the government has brought to this house today. Madam | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
Deputy Speaker, we still do not believe that the commission has been | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
delivered. What we are having today in terms of these amendments, to | :09:23. | :09:31. | |
make sure that we get them delivered. Even if it was, this bill | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
is still significantly behind, where the Scottish people are in terms of | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
what they want from the constitutional arrangements from our | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
nation. This is only the start of a catch-up process. . Wind of these | :09:45. | :09:56. | |
gods, but instead of a whingeing about the process, and wasting time | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
on this, why does he not sit down and have a cancel the debate debate | :10:01. | :10:20. | |
plays. I am not giving away to the silly audibles her bosom and once | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
again. Madam Deputy Speaker, what a sham of a process of this has proven | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
to be. On a point of order. It is a complete disgrace for him to accuse | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
people of attacking Scotland when all they are doing, is commenting on | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
his blue Chris tactics, him personally. Not the debug Scotland | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
the honourable gentleman knows that this is not a point of order. I hope | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
that since the honourable gentleman has pointed out that there is only a | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
small amount of time available for this debate, that I hope that we | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
consume come to the debate itself and that the. I want the house to | :11:03. | :11:14. | |
understand the rage that is felt by myself and my honourable friend | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
about the limited amount of time that we have been given. I also want | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
to ensure the house, then we are not looking to have this bill certified | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
as English only, even though the government consider that to be in | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
English only bill. We do not want it to be certified as God is only. This | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
the bill applies exclusively to Scotland. I hope that in a few short | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
hours that we had that English members will remember that because | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
of this is and how they are voting, listen to the voice of God as | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
members of parliament when it comes to the. And is not good enough to | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
turn up the minute you will have a debate on Scottish business and this | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
new age of English votes for English laws. He we want this bill to be | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
discussed and debated properly. We won't be calling a vote in this | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
programme, which even though I think the house smells, because it does | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
pick up time away from a. Madam Deputy Speaker,... Does my | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
honourable friend agree that one of the road ironies is that after this | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
debate this builder move to the House of Lords will and will take | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
weeks or possibly months for scrutiny. I'm grateful to my out of | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
her friend because that is exactly what happened. The minute that the | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
leave this house and it goes to the unelected chamber of donors, it is | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
other disgraced. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Secretary of State | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
things that this bill held the people of Scotland he is mistaken. | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
Scotland is a more confident and assertive nation and it will never | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
stop asking for more responsibility. Might Deputy Speaker, this guide is | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
a more confident and assertive nation and it will never stop asking | :13:10. | :13:11. | |
for more responsibility. Madam Deputy Speaker,... Thank you very | :13:12. | :13:24. | |
much Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not want the house either. I hope it | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
does not turn to dust the butt and I agree with the member, not on the | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
content, but it seems to me that the attitude has started with the | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
particular debate. I think it is one thing that is worth putting on the | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
record. We've been a lot of time with offices and the usual channels | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
and the web, I understand that there was and agreement that this will be | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
the way that is why we are here. We would like some more time in this | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
chamber. Unfortunately that is not what will happen. Given that the | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
government has accepted most of our amendment. And the fact that the | :14:05. | :14:12. | |
Scottish Parliament has moved toward the room movement of the Beatles and | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
these... We think that it has been delivered. We agree some of the | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
Government amendments and the government has come forward with | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
their amendments and agree that some of those. I think we should get on | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
with the debate this afternoon and start to discuss some of these | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
issues and perhaps we will see whether or not the house agrees. The | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
kernel of this argument is around having enough time to debate | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
effectively all of the details and this very comprehensive bill. There | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
must have been some deal about this. Will become to English devolution | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
and come back to the local government bill that actually look | :15:00. | :15:08. | |
and thereafter, because they're more may be more devolution bills | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
pertaining to Scotland and Ireland, there is a mixture of time that we | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
use the floor to be open and transparent and allow all members to | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
get involved. But there is a period in time with the committee upstairs, | :15:20. | :15:33. | |
the detail is taking place upstairs for every member satisfaction. Madam | :15:34. | :15:41. | |
Deputy Speaker I am not going to detain the house because I do not | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
want to get into the time available to debate. I acknowledge the | :15:48. | :15:55. | |
honourable member's anger. He is always angry at something. We have | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
had this sort of stuck in the newspapers and Scotland, the | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
honourable gentleman called the members of the house of commons and | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
to be nicer to him and we will try, but he does make it a bit difficult. | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
It is clear to me Madam Deputy Speaker, that if the honourable | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
gentleman is anger is not directed at me or this house and is directed | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
at the people of Scotland because they have voted decisively to remain | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
in the United Kingdom and that is something that he just cannot | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
accept. The question is, the Scotland bill programme at number | :16:37. | :16:45. | |
two motion as on the order paper, say Ayes, on the contrary say noes. | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
The Ayes have it, the Ayes have it. We will not proceed to redo orders | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
of the day. Scotland bill has amended the committee of the whole | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
house to be considered a. We begin with government view clause 12 which | :17:01. | :17:08. | |
it will be convenient to consider the new clauses and amendments | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
listed on the selection paper. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
that this is a significant day for Scotland move the public debate | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
about our countries future some questions of Constitution process | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
and onto the real business of using power to improve peoples lives. The | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
governmental amendments which I would like to outline today will | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
strengthen the Scotland bill provision provision and clarify its | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
agreements. With that done, it will be done -- time for it Scotland to | :17:40. | :17:50. | |
be success for everybody. The government has engaged while he was | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
interested parties and Scotland to help people understand the bill and | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
listen to their views. We have discussed the causes with the | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
described as government and the committees for both Scottish and | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
this Parliament. There were suggestions on how to improve the | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
drafting of provisions. A number of technical amendments were proposed | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
to ensure that the build of all the powers. As well as a range of | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
substantial arrangements which put beyond doubt that the bill fully | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
delivers the Smith commission agreement. Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
would like to move the amendments to part one of the bill. We will | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
discuss important amendments on welfare and other parts of the bill | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
later today. Welding on discussions of the Scottish Parliament | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
committee, I am bringing for new clause 12, and amendment 34. The new | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
clause removed the words recognised as and makes clear that the Scottish | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
Parliament and Scottish Government are Parliament institutions which it | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
will take a vote by the people of Scotland in a referendum ever to | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
abolish. This amendment put beyond all doubt that as the prime | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
ministers have said, but it's devolution is woven into the fabric | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
of our United Kingdom. New clause 13 is a technical provision that | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
ensures that the legislative competence is fair to the Scottish, | :19:19. | :19:27. | |
met -- transferred. It is transferred to this Scottish | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
ministers and relation to that area. It will minimise the need for the | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
Scottish Parliament to make separate changes to legislation after | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
commencement of the bill. Amendment 81, 130 - 132 are consequential | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
amendments to new clause 13. Clause 31 will deliver to the Parliament. | :19:50. | :20:00. | |
It was inserted by clause five of the bill. New subsection to be will | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
enable Scottish ministers to make in order for the aid date for the | :20:07. | :20:17. | |
Scottish Parliament election. Government amendment 36 and 44 - 45 | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
clarify what is meant by combined elections. Amendment 36 makes clear | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
that the reservations of the government campaign expenditure by | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
political parties apply where there are overlapping regulator periods | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
even if the actual polls take place on different days. Amendment 44-46 | :20:39. | :20:46. | |
and sort consistency of language throughout the bill. Amendment | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
hundred and 31 inserts a reference to clause three and has a effect of | :20:55. | :21:03. | |
applying schedule 32 and of legislative Scotland Act 2010 to | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
anything that is exercisable within competence for that clause. The new | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
wording and amendment 37 makes it clear that the Scottish Parliament | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
will have permission and duties that when reporting on the delivering of | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
its functions and relation to elections the Scottish Parliament. | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
Minor amendments 38 and 39 injured as minister has power to make | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
provision on the Parliament. And that they are in line with the | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
competence of the Scottish Parliament in this area. Amendment | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
40, is a minor chance to the subordinate legislation powers of | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
his Scottish ministers with the extent of the reservations of the | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
digital concerns. The distal service which I've set said to as service is | :21:53. | :22:01. | |
the white service is to process information for applications. It is | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
used to process applications to process applications of the | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
registers G B elections as well as the EU parliamentary election. | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
Amendment 41 and 40 to ensure that the power in clause five to specify | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
a new date for and ordinary Scottish parliamentary election works with | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
the existing power to propose to move the date. Amendment 43 has the | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
same purpose as of the section of the clause it for places. To enable | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
Scottish ministers to exercise concurrently with the Secretary of | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
State so that subordinate legislative making functions | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
relating to the individual election services which other remains | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
reserved. Scottish ministers will ask a size functions and make | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
regulations about additional service. Amendments 47 - 66 to | :22:57. | :23:06. | |
clarify rules on majority. They are consequential but draw attention to | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
the house and the three main amendments and the house. He -- | :23:10. | :23:18. | |
group -- 60. Rather than assessing the provisions of the bill more | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
generally. Amendment 50 has the affect that a bill passed with a | :23:24. | :23:32. | |
simple majority and respect that a simple majority must be reconsidered | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
by the Scottish Parliament before being submitted for were listed. I | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
consider that it is important that his Scottish Parliament has the | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
opportunity to reconsider the bill in this scenario. Circumstances may | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
have chances the bill was first passed. Amendment 60 probably | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
consequential means that requirements regarding the final | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
stage for the bill and for approval of the bill for reconsideration | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
should be treated as the passing of the bill, and applied regardless of | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
the grounds for reconsideration. Government amendment 62-69 deliver | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
new powers to the Scottish Parliament in relation to the | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
arrangements and operations of the ScottishPower and government. In | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
response to the amendments made in committee stage in discussions with | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
the Scottish Government. This includes powers and relation to the | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
dating of Royal assent, the form and nature of statements made by the | :24:28. | :24:35. | |
presiding officers, let us have appointments to the Scottish | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
Government and the Queens printer for Scotland. These amendments | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
extend far-reaching powers of the arrangements made for the Scottish | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
Parliament and government, already provided by clause 12 and number of | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
amendments made at the committee stage and by the SMP today. | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
I am various grateful to the secretary of state coming to the | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
government amendments. I wonder if he can provide clarity to the House | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
of the guards to the new amendments and whether that with regard to the | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
Mac require any current context? The Trade Union Bill is still under | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
discussion in this house and it is a bill that has been finalised by this | :25:21. | :25:29. | |
house and the other place which will determine the nature of any | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
legislative consent motion which is required which is the normal | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
practice in such matters. Madam Deputy Speaker, the amendments I | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
have tabled today the fill my commitment to reflect on the debate | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
at committee and it is a bit rich to be good-sized bowl for taking no | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
amendments and then in the same breath lodging too many amendments. | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
We did the committee process seriously, we took the contribution | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
by the devolved powers committee in the Scottish Parliament very | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
seriously and that is determined our thinking and launching these | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
amendments. We will hear now the case for other nongovernment | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
commitments, but the House will not be surprised that the government | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
still considers the full fiscal autonomy as not in the interest of | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
the people of Scotland. I believe that Scotland's parties rather than | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
be running the referendum need to work together to understand how the | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
powers in the bill will be used for the benefit of the people of | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
Scotland. The UK government is honouring its commitment in the | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
Edinburgh agreement, excepting the result of the referendum and moving | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
forward to give the Scottish Parliament significant new powers | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
within our United Kingdom. I'm beg to move the amendments in my name. | :26:43. | :26:52. | |
Is very nice to be back here talking about Scottish old, performance of | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
Scottish Parliament and that the government. May I? The first time I | :26:58. | :27:06. | |
have been heckled from the quark's table but I'm sure will not be the | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
last. Desk clerk's table. There is one thing that does concern me, | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker as much as I welcome the devolution to Scotland, | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
as much as I envy the devolution that the Scottish people have | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
achieved, because of the hard work of people like Donald and the | :27:24. | :27:34. | |
convention of cottage citizens. Even the 2012 Scotland at and now this | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
act, there are those of us who represent constituents in England | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
who would kill for 1% of the affected devolution that have gone | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
to Scotland and I congratulate the Scottish people for their efforts | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
and where they got to. But I hope we will be coming very soon to how | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
England can learn some of the lessons of Scottish devolution | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
because it has taught many of us many lessons and I will perhaps | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
touch on some of the devolution packages that are now appearing in | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
England copy they do look very puny and weak compared to the proper | :28:18. | :28:26. | |
devolution that is now taken root right rightly in Scotland. My | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
anxiety, one that I would like to mention, Madam Deputy Speaker, is | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
about the July patient. It is not -- centre the July patient. It is not | :28:39. | :28:48. | |
if they go from Whitehall to Holyrood and stay there somewhat | :28:49. | :28:55. | |
argue, perhaps not used as efficiently as they could be, but | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
when the powers... If the honourable gentleman would allow me to make my | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
case I would happily give way. At Wednesday at Holyrood, and do not | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
filter down to lower tiers, perhaps local government in Scotland, but | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
above all to the Scottish people themselves and their communities and | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
their neighbourhoods. Exchanging centre libation from Whitehall and | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
Westminster to Holyrood is not the bargain that many of us thought that | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
we had intensive devolution in Scotland. I am will very likely give | :29:32. | :29:38. | |
way to the honourable member. I am grateful for you giving way. If he | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
was paying attention he will recognise that the Scottish | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
Government has brought forward proposals for further devolution to | :29:47. | :29:48. | |
Ireland communities. With the Scottish Government came to power, | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
one of the first things we did was remove the vast amount of ring | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
fencing that constrained the what 30s. It is the previous labour | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
administration at was guilty of centralisation not the Scottish | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
Government that we have today. Is always good to hear of examples | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
further devolution and I say more power to those who want to double | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
devolved. The more that that happens, the more that those of us | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
and the other nations of the union can learn the examples and see that | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
happening. I would just very gently worn the honourable member that it | :30:27. | :30:34. | |
is no good always going back to times before his party controlled | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
and runs the Scottish Parliament with powers that are unheard of in | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
the rest of the Union. Powers that should be spread to the rest of the | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
union. There has to be a point where those powers are clearly being used | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
by other than complaining about powers that people would like to | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
have or to not use and powers that we ought to be having rather than | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
the ones that are there to be used at the moment. I think that is a | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
really important lesson for all of us who believe in devolution that we | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
need to push these things for -- further. Why is it the case that my | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
good friends in the Scottish National Party have not supported | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
further amendments and proposed further amendments on making sure | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
that local government itself in Scotland in this case can go further | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
and can run much more of its own affairs. Why is it... I will give | :31:37. | :31:45. | |
way to the honourable gentleman. I think the right honourable member | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
for giving way and as always he is making a very coherent argument on | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
his expertise in positives in all matters. Would he not agree with me | :31:54. | :31:55. | |
that this is often a 2-stage process, the first Dean of devolved | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
power to the Scottish Parliament and then to further devolved powers with | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
the powers that it has been given to Ireland and other communities as it | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
has already done so. I think it is important that we see it in stages. | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
I mentioned earlier that the devolution proposals for England | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
have made a start but there may be another couple of bills necessary in | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
this Parliament before we really see what devolution in England looks | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
like. But there has to be a point where the powers that have already | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
been devolved can be used and can't be pushed beyond the Scottish | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
Parliament down to people on the ground. That is why for example I | :32:38. | :32:45. | |
have proposed, and I did not hear a great deal of support for ensuring | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
that local government in Scotland can, if the people in the area | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
consent, raise their own taxation, if they went over people to do that | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
then they should be enabled to rave of taxation. I will give way in just | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
a moment. So that people in the area, if they are convinced of the | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
need for epic particular tags in a particular area, I often refer to my | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
own cave in Nottingham where we will buy to my own cave in Nottingham | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
where we will, a tourist tax or bed tax in order to do good works, | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
providing people in the local area consent and agree that yellow I | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
think the honourable gentleman for giving way but does he not see that | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
the whole point of devolution is that those decisions should be made | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
by the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood who are already carrying | :33:39. | :33:40. | |
through the community and Parliament act. It is not for this plays to | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
tell the Scottish Parliament what to do with the power that is the bald | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
or else it is not devolved. I cannot speak for this faith I can only give | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
a personal opinion which is yes copy you have heard me say how important | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
it is that powers our devolved to the Scottish Parliament, would as a | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
Democrat I would like to see powers DeVault out of Whitehall to the | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
areas in England for example and onto the ground. Even in my own case | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
to go beyond the Nottingham city Council good as it is, down to the | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
areas, localities. It is not a case of someone telling someone to do | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
this. It is a case of if you'd leave in devolution and I can understand | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
the national feeling devolution is not something they want because it | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
undermines the nationalist epic. But it is perfectly valid position to | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
have, nothing to be ashamed of, but nationalism is not localism and you | :34:42. | :34:49. | |
need... I will give way to the honourable gentleman in a second. If | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
you believe in localism, if you believe as I have put down in an | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
amendment in subsidiary in this am pushing power possible levels you | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
cannot stop with nationalism. Cannot stop with just the nation state, you | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
have to have a whole view about how power can go to the people rather | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
than merely to another elected that of people in the Scottish Parliament | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
which can believe it or not, feel as remote I am sure to some people at | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
the federal Parliament here supplied in Scotland less than 2% of money | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
provided to local authorities is ring based in England it is nearly | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
10%. We should not be having this discussion about Scotland being more | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
centralised than England because it is not the case. Of the honourable | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
member talk about the Scotland bill rather than devolution to England? I | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
can see why it is sensitive that I discussed these issues that got us | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
members of the National Party would rather not talk about. I am going to | :35:54. | :36:02. | |
talk about them because, just let me answer your colleague's question | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
then I'll answer you. It is not just as I have said before the property | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
of people in this cottage National Party or even -- cottage National | :36:12. | :36:25. | |
Party -- Scottish national party... If the honourable gentleman goes on | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
about devolution to England, there's not even in an amendment to his name | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
on this issue. When can we get back to debating the Scotland bill with | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
these the dividend amendment in this bill? I understand the point of the | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
honourable gentleman is making in a taken very seriously. I have been | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
listening very carefully to the Abul gentleman who is -- honourable | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
gentleman who is adjusting points which are relevant to the precise | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
matters before us and the amendment and new clauses before us in a | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
general way. But I am sure the honourable gentleman will accept the | :37:02. | :37:09. | |
feeling of the House that while it is interesting and generally | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
relevant to discuss these matters in general and as a point of academic | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
interest, it is also important that they should be time in the debate | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
for the very many amendment and new clauses that are before us. So I am | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
not sopping the honourable gentleman, but I am trusting him to | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
know when he will drive marks to a conclusion. -- draw his remarks to a | :37:32. | :37:42. | |
conclusion that light perhaps the honourable gentleman is a little | :37:43. | :37:44. | |
anxious as he is now part of the establishment in this place, used to | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
having the privilege of unlimited time to talk to the House, many of | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
us do not have that and we are very jealous of him when he gets up to | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
speak for link, but I am rather supplies at being stopped from | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
entering the question of his honourable friend that I was in the | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
middle of doing. I am also broader there is the bride did not read the | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
order paper because he was the gas rather surprised he did not read the | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
order paper because he will see for in my name. If he takes the time to | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
look at those rather than repeating the speech he has made on previous | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
days he would be better informed on that. Being very careful to stay | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
close to my amendment which are obviously in order of the new | :38:25. | :38:31. | |
clauses, raising money locally, being enabled to raise money locally | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
I think is very important for all our localities and is a symptom of | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
being freed more from Whitehall and Westminster so that this place and | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
Whitehall does what it should do and our perspective nations can govern | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
themselves as much as is absolutely appropriate which they do not | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
currently do, and Colman is leading the way on showing us how to do | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
that. -- Gotland is leading the way. Is about making sure that all must | :39:01. | :39:13. | |
share the benefits of devolution while we remain together I hope we | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
will in the union. I would give way to the honourable gentleman but I | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
give way to the honourable in. He has just said this is not just about | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
Gotland, this is the Scotland bill. Please can we does that Scotland. I | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
know it is difficult to except sometimes when one looks at 1's own | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
propaganda that in fact it is only ever about the Scottish National | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
Party. The truth of the matter is the Scotland bill has in blacks on | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
the rest of the union. We really have impact on the rest of the Union | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
and those of us that will benefit or suffer from matters related to | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
Scotland have a right to express a view and if there was a slightly | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
more outgoing sharing of learning and experience from some colleagues | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
on the Scottish National Party I think there would be more friends | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
want from those of us who very strongly believe in devolution in | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
the other nations of the United Kingdom. I will give way to my | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
honourable friend. I just wondered if the honourable gentleman will see | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
the irony that we voted through English wellspring was lost over | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
created second-class MPs were those of us that come from Scotland. Be we | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
can't fully represent our constituents in this place and here | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
we have the situation that Scotland and 56 SNP MPs with a clear mandate | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
to deliver home rule for Scotland and we are not getting with the | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
Scottish people want because MPs from other parts of the United | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
Kingdom are voting against our interest. We should be having | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
Scottish votes for Scottish laws in this place. I have sympathy for what | :40:54. | :41:01. | |
the honourable gentleman is staying in the generality of what you think | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
but I have to remind him that there was a Scottish referendum and that I | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
understand that majority of Scottish people voted Tuesday in the union. | :41:10. | :41:18. | |
There was a general election, indeed there was a general election. The | :41:19. | :41:26. | |
honourable gentleman from a sedentary position asked me how we | :41:27. | :41:28. | |
got on, there were 50% of Scottish people who voted against the | :41:29. | :41:36. | |
Scottish National Party and unfortunately 50% of Scotland is | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
represented by three numbers of Parliament. The honourable gentleman | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
should relish his victory and he thoroughly deserves to have all the | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
accolades appropriate, but I do ask the honourable gentleman to be a | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
little careful that he does not become triumphant because 50% of | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
cottage people being represented by three members of Parliament is not | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
something his party should be proud of. I hope that the desire for | :42:07. | :42:14. | |
proportional representation which suited the Scottish National Party | :42:15. | :42:24. | |
for many years, now one he has very little, I am just winding up in a | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
way the honourable gentleman may not approve of. Just getting my first | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
wind in the honourable gentleman will allow. It is, I hope the | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
Scottish National Party will not forget their commitment to | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
proportional representation, just because first past the Post has | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
delivered for them a growth disfigured distortion of how many is | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
that width 56 members of Parliament representing happy population. Three | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
members of Parliament representing the other half of the population. I | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
hope that he felt that that is not an appropriate allocation and I hope | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
the Scottish National Party renew their bigger when talking about | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
proportional representation because it has gone rather why it on that | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
subject. I will give weight. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
Does he detect that in a of interventions of the SND member they | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
are purposely upbeat to talk about devolution down to the Scottish | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
level but very keen and not to talk about devolution down to the more | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
local levels on the kind of the local gentleman -- honourable | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
gentleman is outlining and his contributions. I hope people even to | :43:40. | :43:49. | |
haggle and shout with a I try to engage people from the Scottish | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
National Party in debate on these issues. Sometimes they get they bit | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
interesting and you did but that is because we all care passionately | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
about the viewpoints we are putting over. I am trying to put my point of | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
view over. It may be that within what appears to be a robotic | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
monolithic goddess National Party -- goddess National Party that there | :44:14. | :44:15. | |
may be shades of opinion where some people in the Scottish National | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
Party say that perhaps other people do have a view and perhaps there is | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
some resonance there rather than we just want to be told to do what the | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
regular Monday beating does. I like to thank him for giving way. I take | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
a different view to my honourable friend. I do not think that it is | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
necessary, the point he makes. I think is that the SNP who are as my | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
honourable friend said now the establishment in Scotland, are | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
desperate to avoid any scrutiny of the way that they run the Scottish | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
woman because what they want to do is blame everybody else, the wicked | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
people down south where everything that goes wrong in that country stop | :44:57. | :45:08. | |
. I know my honourable friend will be making that point and many others | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
when it comes to the call to speak. Very directly on the order paper, my | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
New Clause eight talks about defining, it is all right sitting at | :45:19. | :45:26. | |
Holyrood and handing out legislature but that is exactly what Whitehall | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
and Westminster does to everybody else. The Scottish people have | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
suffered from that as much as being was people. One of the ways get | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
around that is to define the competences of local government and | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
national government, such that you cannot undertake when it suits you | :45:43. | :45:51. | |
-- unpick the idea that powers should be devolved the on either | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
Holyrood or Westminster. Unless it is written in such a way that is | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
entrenched, you will find people inevitably find that the lore of | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
power from the centre, telling people what to do whether it is | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
Holyrood or Whitehall is all too strong. My New Clause, eight, | :46:10. | :46:17. | |
actually says that people who want to engage in this debate should sit | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
down and discuss with local government wherever it is what it is | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
that is appropriate for local government to do. I do not think | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be immune | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
from that year he that idea -- that theory, that idea that otherwise | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
they will find the power to back up as them of my friends in Scotland | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
are telling me it has become ever more centralised and no doubt that | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
would be a matter of debate. But that is what people are saying and | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
it may be that the easiest way around that is not to say we are | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
very nice to people, we have been lying to people when we give them a | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
little bit more money here and there, it actually to allow them the | :47:01. | :47:10. | |
very drivers that produced... I give way to the honourable gentleman .dll | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
he talks about devolving power. He talks about devolving power and as | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
we know money is power. William for the permit for devolving prevention | :47:22. | :47:23. | |
of business made locally, a policy which has evolved to the Scottish | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
government that is not being mimicked in Scotland? The Scottish | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
National Party and the conservative power together if they do good | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
things in Dems are pushing power down or pushing finance down I am | :47:42. | :47:43. | |
very happy to applaud them. What I am saying is that in order that what | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
the centre give this Comedy Central can take it away. Order to avoid | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
that we have to have this as a proper weight written settlement | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
because there will be a time even if you do not think you are doing it | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
now, there will be a time when that temptation to turn it around, suck | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
power back, tell people what to do from the centre whether it is | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
Holyrood or Whitehall or Westminster will overcome people even with the | :48:12. | :48:24. | |
best parts. I give way to a. This is a United Kingdom billable to have | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
impact on my constituents as well as others and I'll be delighted if the | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
Clause that my friend is moving were able in somewhere to be taken from | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
this bill into an English bill so that my counsel can protect my | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
constituents and assume what the people of Scotland are doing for | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
there. I welcome this bill. That is why knowing many of my parliamentary | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
colleagues from Scotland I rely on their generosity of spirit to | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
actually help those of us who are trying to do it evolved settlement | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
in other parts of the union -- devolved settlement, not to pull up | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
the job age, not to say that we have what we want -- Strawbridge. Now we | :49:11. | :49:19. | |
have on the back of 50% of votes in our nation and we have 95% of the | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
Steve, that is all OK. Now we are in control of the Scottish Parliament, | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
not when to use the powers but we will set up power from local | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
government. I know that is not where many of my colleagues parliamentary | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
colleagues of Scotland was to be but they need to speak up. They need to | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
make that clear in their internal meetings, inside their party, they | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
need to be clear with people who are telling them leave it to eyes, we | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
are the top dogs, do what you are told, show up, it is your ship, all | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
that sort of stuff. We have it in every other party and evil will hope | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
that there can be proper debates within parties so that all of the | :49:58. | :50:05. | |
devolution here can move forward. It has to go beyond Scotland if you | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
really believe in devolution you have to take it beyond the one area | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
and I am happy to discuss and debate that with anybody. One of the areas | :50:16. | :50:22. | |
that we need to talk about... I would be very happy to give way to | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
the honourable member who is shouting. I am very happy to have | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
shouting into speculating, it is the parliamentary equivalent of bidding | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
at your opponent in the street. -- bidding at your opponent -- | :50:40. | :50:49. | |
I am not happy to have shouting and just make you a cent, but I will say | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
to the honourable gentleman that sometimes when the House becomes a | :50:55. | :51:02. | |
little the Severus is possibly an indication that when there is a | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
limited amount of time per debate and the honourable gentleman does | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
have four very important amendments down for discussion that he had | :51:13. | :51:19. | |
taken a fair chunk of the time for the debate and as I said | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
previously, I am not sopping him, he has the Lord, he is a senior and | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
much respected member of the South and he will know himself when he had | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
taken the right amount of time in this very short debate. I will go on | :51:33. | :51:42. | |
if people allow me to. As always, there is not a person in this | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
chamber who can say that I do not give way when people have a | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
reopening of debate rather than just yelling from a sedentary position. | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
That will continue to be my policy and I will not move from that | :51:54. | :52:01. | |
whatever the provocation. The New Clause nine thoughts about | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
subsidiarity brought to us from the former lady from indent or the | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
master treaty. What it does and respectful this bill Madam Deputy | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
Speaker is to enable us to define and keep a very clear view, a very | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
clear perspective on what is local, what is regional, what is national | :52:24. | :52:31. | |
and what is federal. That, I believe will actually help everybody, | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
whichever country they are in within the union, will help everybody to | :52:35. | :52:42. | |
actually sustain as well as when small victories here and there, to | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
sustain a change in our democratic structure with will make it harder | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
for those who wish to actually do away when they feel a convenience | :52:52. | :52:59. | |
with any settlement. Part of the bill in front of as, Madam Deputy | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
Speaker in my view relates very much to the rest of the United Kingdom. | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
That is around the possibility of having a citizens convention rather | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
modelled on the Scottish convention, where people throughout | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
the whole of the United Kingdom can face some of these issues which are | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
of great importance to us. I think the debate around evil was a day | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
version. It was an irrelevant, it was a mere procedural issue and is | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
very little to do with devolution and greater freedom for our people | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
within the United Kingdom. I hope very much that we move on from where | :53:42. | :53:51. | |
we are on Scottish devolution and where we are on the local Government | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
Bill which is devolution in England and that we take these issues | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
forward together. Working together, all parties, and making sure that | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
there is a constitutional brother a citizen's convention on devolution | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
so that we can't read some of the excellent things achieved by the | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
Scottish people and by people like Donald Dewar and by those in the | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
Scottish citizens convention and those that worked on the 2012 act, | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
all those parties of the union that worked together to create the | :54:26. | :54:32. | |
Scottish bill which is now before us, which quite rightly is the first | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
bill for Parliament. I hope very much Madam Deputy Speaker, using | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
that president that the first bill in the 2020 Parliament is a bill | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
that brings devolution to all the nations of the union so that all the | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
nations of the union can get the benefits which are rightly going to | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
be enjoyed by the people in Scotland. | :54:56. | :55:04. | |
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to speak to New Clause one, | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
which has been tabled by the Secretary of State, what he calls | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
for independent commission of four fiscal autonomy. I have to say to | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
him that there is a wealth of hypocrisy about this. He may not | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
remember but on June the 15th, during the committee stage, I put | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
forward an amendment to achieve immediate four fiscal autonomy. I | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
was supported in that minute by the division lobbies cop, by the SNP and | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
buy some colleagues. And the Labour Party on the June 15, if they have | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
bolted with us, could have had full fiscal autonomy and I. They chose | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
not to do it. I don't know whether they are embarrassed about that, but | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
they now, will be shadow Secretary of State for shaking his head. He | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
said he is not embarrassed. To produce and other talking shop, | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
another Smith commission for fiscal autonomy. Knocking into the long | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
grass, incidentally he says that no members of Parliament or members of | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
the other place should serve on this. Indeed the Secretary of State | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
should not appoint as a member of the commission and member who is a | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
member of a party. This is a sort of process of thinking that somehow | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
politicians said take decisions that as it is not statements of his | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
disciples being of the nations, it is unelected commissions. What was | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
such a commission meeting for many months tell us what we don't know | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
already? The fact is that full fiscal autonomy is a well understood | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
concept. It has to be part simplicity. I'm not going to repeat | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
all the arguments I made in his favour on June the 15th, but the | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
Labour Party could have had a. I give this prediction that at the | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
general election, he did the Conservative Party in their | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
manifesto, or the Labour Party will promise a full fiscal autonomy. I | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
believe they have to do that because we will continue to be behind the | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
curve. I was criticised by some of my colleagues who are being | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
unhelpful on the 15th of. I think I was hopeful for the conservative | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
cause of. Because it shows these some people in Scotland that there | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
were Unionist politicians who valued the union. Who do believe in full | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
fiscal autonomy and to believe it is the best way to stop the gradual | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
slide towards independence. Because if we have a Scottish Parliament | :57:43. | :57:52. | |
based on the Smith commission, which is involved highly complex | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
procedures on tax and other matters. You are leading to a sense of | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
grievance. The way to solve the grievance is to have a full fiscal | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
autonomy immediately and the Scottish Parliament should tax the | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
people, spend that money, and they are held responsible. At the | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
Scottish National Party controls the Scottish Parliament, it is held | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
responsible by the Scottish people. I would argue also that actually | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
full fiscal autonomy is either more relevant and even more the arguments | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
have had more in his favour since June the 15th for the debate that we | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
have had. What is the objection to evil? The objection to evil is that | :58:36. | :58:43. | |
we have these bonnet formula. Therefore they are not allowed to | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
bar brawl stage of the bill. But a bill could change spending habits of | :58:47. | :58:53. | |
the changes English, and automate it automatically changes Scottish | :58:54. | :58:55. | |
spending. But Scottish members are Parliament are not allowed to vote | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
at all stages of the bill. If he had full fiscal autonomy, if we did away | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
with the Barnett formula, there will be need for... Get you on the | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
bizarre methods would be foreign affairs and Defense. Foreign affairs | :59:10. | :59:12. | |
and Defense account for a very large small proportion of total spending. | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
I think the budget of the Foreign Office is .2% of GNP. Him of the is | :59:19. | :59:27. | |
2%. The Foreign Office and is less than 2%. Would highly have any | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
legislation, sometimes years passed without there being any legislation | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
on the him of the or the Foreign Office. In the Scottish Parliament | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
have full fiscal autonomy, therefore very effectively the only | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
legislation that affected the Scottish people, there'll be no need | :59:46. | :59:53. | |
evil. This whole debate around bonnet and evil which is gradually | :59:54. | :59:59. | |
and endanger, I don't want to, but it will be used by our political | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
opponents, they do oppose the giving end, they are entitled to make what | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
arguments they like. They would use the debate around able to argue | :00:09. | :00:16. | |
against the United Kingdom. I do indeed remember the members that he | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
bought before the House in terms of full fiscal autonomy. He will also | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
remember that the Shadow Chancellor also vote in the lobbies would be | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
gentleman. Would he agree with me that it might be progress indeed for | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
the Labour Party if we follow the party leadership on this matter to | :00:33. | :00:40. | |
a? The wishing to have an interesting concept nowadays in the | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
Labour Party. We have full fiscal, full freedom on the new ventures, | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
and apparently their leader can oppose Labour Party policies. The | :00:50. | :00:57. | |
Shadow Chancellor of others party policy on full fiscal autonomy. This | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
is an interesting situation, that we live in. I think I have made my | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
point. I do not believe that this is a genuine proposal from the shadow | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
Secretary of State. He is going to tell me it is. I respect the right | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
honourable gentleman immensely in this fight. B thinks back to the | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
debate that we had on June the 15th, no one in this chamber from the SNP | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
or his colleagues believed the figures is double board. Is an | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
attempt to put some clarity and to those figures rather than that and | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
?1 billion glycol. I don't want to get and all the debate about black | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
old and the deficit in all the rest of the. I remember that I was | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
intervened. And I said that should be transitional arrangements. I | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
accepted that and made the point that this was not a bright wing Tory | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
trap to trap the SNP. This was not a device to get rid of bonnet because | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
we were claiming that the Scottish people get ?6,000 a year more. I | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
precisely said it that if we had full fiscal autonomy, if bonnet was | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
gotten rid of, we should retain the UK and the should be a grand formula | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
based on these. If Scotland had a particular problem, we aren't United | :02:25. | :02:35. | |
Kingdom Parliament. And we are a fraternal Parliament and I believe | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
in the union and standing together. If there is a need for the UK, I | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
then called at the Imperial Parliament see, helping our friends | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
and whales. They don't like that word but I use that today. It is a | :02:51. | :03:01. | |
technical term that if our friends need extra help from the UK | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
Parliament, we should give that help. It should be based on needs, | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
not this automatic formula based on the bonnet, which is a outmoded | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
concept that says has outlived this time. I also said that it is very | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
dangerous in the concept of the able debate, I'm glad that the Labour | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
Party, I respect the Secretary of State, but they are making some | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
progress in. I believe that they are still behind the curve. I don't | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
think they ever going to get back in front of the curve in Scotland, | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
unless they actually are bold. I say again to the point that I made back | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
in June, that whether we like it or not, we have the election system | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
that we have. We the Unionist parties, what the Scottish people, | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
we based our arguments on the Smith commission and only 156 at a 59 | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
seats in Scotland. That is a system that we have. That is the | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
parliamentary system that we live in. We have to accept that whether | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
we like it or not, the Smith commission was rejected by the | :04:10. | :04:17. | |
Scottish people. If we want to save the Union, and I am passionate about | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
the union as he is, we cannot be behind the curve on this. We have to | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
be a, we have to be bold, and I think we have to move with full | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
fiscal autonomy, and move with it now. R Bross to speak to the | :04:31. | :04:41. | |
amendments tabled in my name and proceedings which thus far of most | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
eras of Scotland will view of a total travesty and a farce. We are | :04:47. | :04:55. | |
told that this is a piece of legislation of amazing proportions | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
and importance of. Yeah, there are tend back benches on the | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
conservative side of the House and less than ten members of Parliament | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
on the labour side of the House. What does it say about the Unionist | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
party in this house, that they can even be bothered to turn up for a | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
debate about something that they think is so important? We are | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
debating the reports stage of the Scotland of today where there are | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
200 or more amendments or new clauses before us. 200. Yet we have | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
heard extended speeches about English local government and a whole | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
series of other things, that have nothing to do with the Scotland bill | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
or the proceedings which are before us today. The context of proceedings | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
is clear to people listening and watching and Scotland. Firstly, a | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
promise was made. Secondly, we heard today in and day out that the bald | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
Macs will be delivered, even from Labour MPs of the time. We heard | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
from the foreign -- former Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Near | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
federalism. Within a year or two as close to a federal state can be. You | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
can call this legislation many things. But it is not a charged for | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
federalism. It is a long, long way way from that. We all know that the | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
shortcomings have been that, notwithstanding the fact that they | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
have been denied. But that being denied by the government site, but I | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
cleared for pretty much anyone else who cares to look at the. Why do we | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
know that? Because there are others who are not an political parties | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
have said so. And they do have a vested interest from the Scottish | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
trades Union Congress, the Scottish Council organization, care for | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
Scotland. The cross party committee of the Scottish Parliament to have | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
the obligation to look at this on which, we had senior Conservatives | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
and Labour MSP serving. They said that these Scotland bill falls short | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
in some critical areas. The Scotland bill does not meet the spirit or | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
substance of the Smith commission recommendation. And required | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
extensive or redrafting and other key areas. What about those who do | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
have a political interest? Let's take the leader of the party of | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
Scotland, Mr Alex Riley speaking on BBC radio Scotland on September the | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
18th, 2015. I call from him, no is and no buts. Smith has not been | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
delivered and we will stand shoulder to shoulder with SNP ministers to | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
deliver Smith. How ironic. Where would the bushes today? Where were | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
the speeches? Perhaps with the hidden leader. We have not heard one | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
that reflects those realities. We should not lose sight of the fact | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
that the Smith commission followed the referendum, and have as said in | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
previous meetings of this house, debating the Scotland bill, that we | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
recognise and respect the result of the referendum. And we didn't | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
proceeded to work with the other political parties in the Smith | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
commission, and we didn't want to the country and a general election. | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
Like other political parties, we stood on a manifesto. The manifesto | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
said as follow, we welcome the proposals set out in the Smith | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
commission as far as did we go. Before further watering down of the | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
grant proposals by the UK Government is unacceptable. That should be no | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
effective veto for UK ministers on the exercise of the various new | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
powers and particular over the welfare system. It goes on. We | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
shared the view of many organizations across Scotland that | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
the package as it stands, does not enable us to deliver fully social | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
justice are the powerhouse of a economy that opt out -- country | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
demand. That is not enough Smith commission recommendations to | :09:05. | :09:06. | |
empower the Scottish Parliament to tackle inequalities in Scotland. | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
Dismiss commission proposals were in many respects a missed opportunity. | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
This isn't about more than 70% of Scottish taxes and 85% of the | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
current UK welfare spending and Scotland will stay at Westminster. | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
We also want to the country with the following pledge, that Scotland | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
should have the opportunity to establish its own constitutional | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
framework. Including human rights, equality, it is in place of local | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
government. The Scottish Parliament should also have the ability to | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
revisit its interest on the Bob method and the EQ and | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
internationally. We went to the country would do pledges, and what | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
happened? An absolute electoral wipe-out for the Labour Party in | :09:50. | :10:00. | |
Scotland, losing 40 of 41 sees. Losing right across the Scotland. | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
Who I will move on to next. The worst electoral showing an hundred | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
years -- 100 years, since 1865. I have to say to the Honorable | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
gentleman, that I will be grateful if he can point out a single country | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
in the industrialised democratic world, where the mainstream centre | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
right party does as bad as the Scottish Conservative Party. Name | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
that country. Has been put on the record so many times by the | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
gentleman, what I would like to do is one of the Conservative Party | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
polled more votes in the 2015 general election than they did in | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
the 2010 election. He shot to distort those figures. Perhaps, | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, perhaps he would like to join me in | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
congratulating the new conservative counsel would, who taught... The | :10:56. | :11:14. | |
right honourable gentleman had the opportunity to name a single country | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
in the industrialised democratic world where at centre right party | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
does worse than the Scottish Conservative Party. He cannot think | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
of one, because there is not one. The Scottish Tories pulled what he | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
or 9%, down 2%. To be proud of that, for the Secretary of State for | :11:32. | :11:40. | |
Scotland to deny the fact this goes to show how far the Conservative | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
Party, the Labour Party, and also by the point out that liberal | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
Democrats. I don't see the Liberal Democrats here. They lost ten out of | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
11 seats in Scotland. The point of all of this is his understanding of | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
where the Democrat -- democratic mandate lies. We want to the country | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
sank Smith should be delivered in full and further parents should be | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
delivered. And the Scottish National Party won an overwhelming mandate to | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
come to this place and make the case. The gentleman allow time to | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
make a speech and later. That is very little time. I'm the first | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
commentary from the SNP to be caught in this proceeding, more than an | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
hour after the beginning. Madam Deputy Speaker, the sole purpose of | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
the Scotland bill is to implement dismiss commission in. He amendments | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
in the UK Government are a welcome admission that the Scotland bill as | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
published did not deliver Smith. However, the governments of member | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
to the bill still fail to deliver Smith and still failed Scotland. We | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
at SNP had tabled a brand of amendments that will give the people | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
of Scotland the powers that they were promised and the powers that | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
they will need. We have tabled amendments on tax credits, which | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
will devolve to excellence of working tax credits. We have tabled | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
amendments on employment rights which will devolve control over | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
employment rights in the industrial relation to the Scottish Parliament. | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
Will be debating these in the next section. We have also tabled an | :13:22. | :13:30. | |
amendment to the bald powers of all referendum on Scottish independence | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
to the Scottish Parliament. There should be at only be under | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
referendum on the people of Scotland indicate that they one. It is right | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
that the Scottish Parliament, the people Scottish Parliament hold the | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
power to react to the wishes of the people of Scotland. We also should | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
not lose sight of the fiscal framework. That is the financial | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
underpinnings which will allow the transfer of powers to operate | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
without detriment to the people of Scotland. I'd give Wade. This debate | :14:03. | :14:17. | |
is on the Constitution and perhaps Scottish Parliament... Would bring | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
substantial revenue am many jobs to Scotland. Estrogen opportunities, | :14:25. | :14:33. | |
must be about the approach and natural resources. That the member | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
agreed that when it comes to including tax forms and make sure | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
that the distribution of monies is correct, that this is a good | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
opportunity to act on safe ground partnership principles at the very | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
heart of government? I encouraged him to get in touch directly with | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
the brutal secretary of Scotland. We are very proud of the agendas that | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
the government is bringing the rural affairs, and he is bringing the | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
rural affairs, and yet made his case. Returning to the issue of the | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
end of the independence referendum, and Scotland. I commended gentleman | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
party for the having greater strength than the Liberal Democrats. | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
On the issue of the referendum, in order to hold the 2014 referendum | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
that Scottish and UK Government have to agree to in order,... To grant | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
the Scottish Government the legislative compliments to hold a | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
referendum, providing a number of conditions are met, namely that it | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
was held before the end of 2014 and at the ballot box included one | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
question. The SNP amendment to the bill will permanently transferred to | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
the Scottish Parliament the power to legislate for a referendum on | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
Scottish independence. It is right that the Scottish Parliament should | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
decide on this. And not displace. At the First Minister has made clear, | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
the SNP manifesto for next years election will set out our position | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
on a second independence referendum. And considered ring what | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
circumstances what might be appropriate at some point of future. | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
The final decision on whether or not there is another referendum, and | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
with are not Scotland ever becomes independent will always be for the | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
people of Scotland. In the meantime, I would observe that | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
support for Scottish independence has continued to grow, advise people | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
back, watching, I have no doubt that it will probably rise even further. | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
Atlanta-based bowl for the Times found 47% currently support | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
independence, and found that two thirds believe that the country will | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
be independent by 2040. -- 2045. Support for independence has present | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
at the governments have failed to meet its promises. Promoted English | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
falls for English lost. Sent the referendum, the UK governments | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
attitude toward Scotland has angered the great many people and those who | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
are watching proceedings today have good reason to be angered,. They are | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
shown scant regard in the UK Government for the voice of the | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
people of Scotland. Will not lose sight of the financial arrangements | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
that relate to this bill. We've arrested or Scottish questions last | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
week. We understand that the negotiating process is underway | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. Is absolutely | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
critical that that financial framework is negotiated in good | :17:38. | :17:39. | |
faith between both governments, without detriment to the people of | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
Scotland. I am grateful to the right honourable gentleman. Weather would | :17:45. | :17:53. | |
have a little bit more transparency around what discussions are being | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
made to stop anyone, or any party in December from misinterpreting what | :17:59. | :18:00. | |
the fiscal framework is looking to achieve. Than the Scottish people | :18:01. | :18:09. | |
can make their own judgement. I agree with him. I think trespassing | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
is a good thing and I know that our colleagues in the Parliament are | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
happier than we are here by the open approach that the Scottish | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
Government is taking on this matter. Negotiations between both | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
governments, but the Secretary of State could come to this house and | :18:25. | :18:26. | |
provide more information to his satisfaction and mind to. Dismiss | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
commission identified that Scotland budget should be no larger or | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
smaller than simply act as a result of the initial transfer of powers. | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
And recommended the devolution of further tax spending to the Scottish | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
Parliament should be accompanied by an fiscal framework for Scotland and | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
that the UK and Scotland government should work together via the joint | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
committee to revise fiscal funding framework for Scotland. UK and | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
Scottish governments are negotiating the framework on an ongoing basis. | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
It should allow the Scottish Government to pursue its own | :19:02. | :19:03. | |
distinct policies that meet the needs and wishes of the people of | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
Scotland for fiscal devolution to work, it is essential that the | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
Scottish Government to someplace ability. Consistent with the over UK | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
framework. The blogger and adjustment should be robust, | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
transparent, and deliver a fair outcome for Scotland to be agreed by | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
both government. The effect of the adjustment should be assured that | :19:25. | :19:26. | |
the Scottish Government budget should be a rock on big no better or | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
worse off in the long term against the devolved taxes would have raised | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
have been not been devolve. The Scottish Government has said that | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
they will not sign up to any adjustment which is not there to | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
Scotland. This is in-line with the no detriment principle set out at | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
end dismiss commission. Before us today we have 200 amendments and new | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
clauses. They are a massively important to people in Scotland, but | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
sadly not to the Labour Party and the Conservative Party who are in | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
here such small numbers. I was to bring my contribution to a close. To | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
make sure that more members of Parliament for Scotland by the | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
opportunity to take part. The people of Scotland are watching these | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
proceedings. We are told that did this to the mother of all polymers. | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
If it is be the most important legislation about the future of our | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
country, to have a shoehorned into less than one day a proceedings, | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
incidentally for the affirmation of the shadow Secretary of State for | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
Scotland against the wishes of the SNP, who pressed for another day of | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
proceeding to what to look into this in detail, people should look and | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
learn because it is this is the way to bring forward legislation, we do | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
not need a. The Scottish Parliament is a 21st century Parliament, and if | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
ever there was a case but for these problems being exercised all issues | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
that mattered to the people of Scotland, this is an. It is a | :20:51. | :21:02. | |
pleasure to follow the right honourable member. My apology. I | :21:03. | :21:12. | |
have lived in England for in more than 50 -- 15 years. 1's accent | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
that's changed. Is also a pleasure to have listened to the hombre | :21:16. | :21:23. | |
member. I agree with this that is is indeed an important constitutional | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
bill. We are hearing today, Madam Deputy Speaker, how this bill will | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
make the Scottish Parliament, not just a permanent institution in the | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
UK's arrangement, but one of the worlds most powerful devolved | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
parliaments. It will allow workers to leave decisions affecting | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
Scotland to be taken in Scotland. Crucially, it will increase the | :21:51. | :21:52. | |
financial responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament at its | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
accountability to the Scottish public. That is that the opposite | :21:57. | :22:05. | |
member opposite do not wish. Accountability is something that has | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
been lacking in these last eight years and Scotland. Home we hear | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
about the bride and Scotland. Home we hear about the griping grievance | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
constantly being done to let them about decisions and powers, which | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
already rest within the Scottish National Party and Scottish | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
Government. It must be said that Bible for the South today by the | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
Secretary of State and his team contains substantial financial | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
powers, including over, income tax, the devolution of substantial | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
elements of the welfare system, and up range of other powers including | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
constitutional powers and transport. Is a pleasure to give | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
away For their generous way of giving away. Half of the AP will be | :22:54. | :23:02. | |
assigned. There are no powers over VAT and I do fear that the | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
honourable gentleman has misspoken and his excitement to prove his | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
loyalty to his front bench. The Honorable member has are pretty | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
extensive powers when it comes to income tax. Which ask why in the | :23:16. | :23:24. | |
last eight years has the SNP failed to use any of the powers that they | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
currently have. Blaming London and England for all their problems that | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
they create back in Scotland. Along with that house but, that will that | :23:36. | :23:45. | |
Scotland also retain the huge benefits of being a part of the UK | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The benefits that the | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
people of Scotland, remember those big words, the Democratic majority | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
that voted Tuesday part of the UK last year, sadly that has been | :24:02. | :24:14. | |
lacking. I believe... It would be fair to say that they simply do not | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
want to answer the question of accountability. It is | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
accountability. What have they done with the powers that they have had | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
over the last eight years? They simply blamed London for all the | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
problems that they have created. Not at this moment. The Scotland bill | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
would turn the historic of all parties met the group agreement, an | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
agreement that the members opposite agreed-upon. It will turn into | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
constitutional legislation. And a the Conservative Party will able to | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
lay claim on words as being the true party for the Scots who believe in | :24:54. | :25:03. | |
our UK. That is to say the greater majority | :25:04. | :25:14. | |
These are serious and important issues as far as the constitutional | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
government is concerned. Does he share my disappointment that all | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
that he seems to be hearing from the nationalist benches is the political | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
polls and who stood where and who lost what, and in turn how they will | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
use these powers? My honourable friend is absolutely correct. The | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
base that will -- this grace that we are hearing is the disgrace that the | :25:39. | :25:40. | |
laughter in respect to the discussion that we are having on | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
this constitution or bill that is coming from the benches opposite. It | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
is no surprise that opposition Nationalist MPs are true to their | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
form. They continue to create grievance where there is not. They | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
offer Mr to be people of Scotland when they should be working with all | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
sides of this house better together, that is what the people of Scotland | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
voted for -- they offer mischief. Devoted nearly a year ago for a | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
better United Kingdom of Great Britain and in northern Ireland. | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
They do not want the people of Scotland, constitutional | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
uncertainties he. My constituents are a small and great Ireland | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
nation, and the people of Britain are fed up. The truth is, Madam | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
Deputy Speaker, that nothing will please the honourable members | :26:38. | :26:39. | |
opposite. Nothing at all. That should be knows the price to this | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
side of the House. -- no surprise. All the members opposite want is the | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
end of the UK. Therefore, they will not support any Scotland bill, no | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
matter what powers of devolution might be offered to them. They | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
simply do not want it. I will take the honourable member. I think my | :26:58. | :27:09. | |
honourable friend... Under the new act that he owns a comedy club. Can | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
I ask the honourable member... Is this a metal that will take away | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
basic industrial relations powers away from devolved administrations? | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
We can see Madam Deputy Speaker, that the respect comes from only | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
this side of the House to that side of the House. There is simply no | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
respect. There is no interest in being respectful because the | :27:33. | :27:34. | |
honourable members opposite simply want to destruction of great Britain | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
-- the destruction. We will never permit that. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
we must remind the House as I did in my meetings speech, I am pleased to | :27:46. | :27:53. | |
see the right honourable member is in his seat. There was another | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
promise and we will never forget this other promise given to be | :27:57. | :27:58. | |
people of Scotland and indeed to behold UK. -- the whole. What was a? | :27:59. | :28:10. | |
He told the voters of Scotland last you that in respect of the | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
referendum, this is a once in a generation, he said "perhaps even a | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
once in a lifetime opportunity! Postal what disrespect the | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
honourable members are showing to the people of Scotland today. Barely | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
able year has passed and they are demanding and other referendum. We | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
can never trust the SNP again with any agreement or referendum. The | :28:34. | :28:41. | |
people of my constituency South Leicestershire him as I mentioned, | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
are fed up with for grievance. They want stability and this bill today | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
provides stability for the whole of the UK. I will give way. You said | :28:52. | :28:59. | |
before that... For your constituents and Leicestershire South was evil | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
and making sure that it went through and we can vote on English laws. The | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
same constituents, year on year, participating in this debate and | :29:09. | :29:10. | |
arguing absolutely nothing good. Hear, hear! | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
I do not understand the honourable gentleman's point copy if he is | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
talking about a member that comes from Scotland representing in | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
English constituency, forget that this is a British pilot. I represent | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
a British constituency in the UK Parliament. We must never forget | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
that. And other argument that we have had for months now is that | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
those members opposite are able somehow, using perhaps psychic | :29:38. | :29:46. | |
hours, to tell us what was in the minds... Let me establish what was | :29:47. | :29:55. | |
in the mind. I campaigned in Scotland, I spoke to thousands. The | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
no voters owed for one simple thing. No to separation and yes to the | :30:02. | :30:11. | |
United Kingdom. . Any other that the honourable member suggest they have | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
voted for instantly based on no evidence. They cannot have it both | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
ways. They cannot determine and tell us why we want independence and at | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
the same time, tell us what was in the mind of the no votes are. The | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
nobles are bolted no because they wanted and loved the United Kingdom | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
of Great Britain -- no voter. The honourable gentleman suggests that | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
we do not know what is in the mind of the no voters. We spent months | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
knocking on doors and speaking to them. Therefore they have told us. | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
"I regret it. I voted because I was over at -- I was afraid, but Ira | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
granted." So we are not guessing, they are speaking to us. There are | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
many yes voters who have told me how pleased they were that the no voters | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
won. Look at where Scotland would be today had the people of Scotland | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
voted for separation! Know, to be honourable Lady, I am afraid she is | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
fundamentally wrong. Many of the yes voters are very pleased that the | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
people of Scotland voted sensibly. Not at this stage copy the truth | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
is, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the SNP simply do not want to answer the | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
tilt the Mac legitimate questions that we should be asking today about | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
the Scotland bill -- do not want to answer be legitimate questions. It | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
is time for the honourable members to explain to this house and the | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
people of Scotland how they and tend to use these extensive powers. They | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
always complain, but do not explain how they intend to use these powers. | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
For example how they will sort out the mess of the Scottish NHS. It has | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
given less money than the English NHS IVF in the Scottish government. | :32:08. | :32:16. | |
How were they sort out, Madam Deputy Speaker, the centralising tendency? | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
Take for example, the least Scotland. What a clever idea. Let's | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
centralise power to Edinburgh. That is another example of how they hold | :32:26. | :32:34. | |
power to themselves. How will they ensure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
they will properly finance Scotland's fantastic universities, | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
one of which I was proud to go to? What about answering the questions | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
of universal leaders bring to be SNP government about a lack of money in | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
a problem with government structures that the SNP are inflicting on | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
Scottish universities? And how will they ensure they improve the | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
terminal justice system in Scotland, rather than blaming London in | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
England and creating grievance where there are none? The truth is, the | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
they have been in government for eight long years and it is about | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
time that the accountability should be taken by the SNP government and | :33:10. | :33:17. | |
not blaming London for everything. The truth, Madam Deputy Speaker, is | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
that the Scotland bill, once and for all was so the SNP for what they | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
really are. They are a party failing the people of Scotland. Eparchy, | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
ignoring the wishes of the Democratic majority -- a party. They | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
said no to independence. I will take the honourable member. I am grateful | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
today to be honourable gentleman for giving way. Forgive me that we are | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
members of the benches are not going to sit here and listen to be | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
honourable gentleman due down our Scottish NHS or indeed, due down our | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
university system which provides free education for area people | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
because that is what we believe in and Scotland. He is damaging a | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
willful lack of understanding I think -- demonstrating. We win | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
elections and Scotland. As a fact, we win elections under PR system by | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
majority in Scotland and we won the general election in Scotland. So we | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
are here debating the Scotland bill and it will be great if the | :34:21. | :34:22. | |
honourable gentleman would begin to debate it so we can at maximum | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
powers to the people of Scotland because this government has failed | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
them! Hear, hear! Madam Deputy Speaker, I am signing a | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
light on what is really happening in Scotland under the 1-party state | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
that has become the SNP. The Secretary of State in his team | :34:41. | :34:41. | |
through this bill, board! Order! Honourable members might not | :34:42. | :34:56. | |
agree with what the items of gas honourable gentleman is saying, but | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
it is simply rude to be sold out and make so much noise that he cannot be | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
heard. Just as I have defended the honourable gentleman on the front | :35:05. | :35:06. | |
bench and make sure that he was hurt, so I am defending the | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
honourable gentleman. He will be heard. Exactly, Madam Deputy | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
Speaker. What would the people of Scotland make up the laughter coming | :35:17. | :35:18. | |
from those benches opposite? That is his respect. That is a disgraceful | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
state of Scottish MP of fairs that we have in this house. The truth is | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
that the Secretary of State and his team are presenting a formidable | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
constitutional settlement for the people of Scotland. The people of | :35:36. | :35:37. | |
Scotland want a strong United Kingdom of great Britain. I believe | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
in Scotland having a strong place within the UK. At the truth is there | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
is nothing that this side of the House can offer members opposite in | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
respect of a devout settlement, because they simply don't want one. | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
They want to see an end of the UK. Whereas we want to see it together. | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
LAUGHTER Madam Deputy Speaker, I make my | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
final comments, this is a bill that will settle the argument once and | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
for all. Four in one year's time board two, we will be able to look | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
at Gotland, I will take the honourable lady -- Scotland. He is | :36:20. | :36:27. | |
concluding on the basis that this bill was started of the Smith | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
commission. But a committee of NSP in the Scottish Parliament, | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
including his own party, has said that this does not mean the | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
aspirations of the Smith commission. How does he answer to | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
people in Scotland of his own party who did not believe? Hear, hear! | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
That is simply not the case. Madam Deputy Speaker, this Scottish | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
Parliament's middies are stuck with SNP, MSP. There is knows a price | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
that they're taking the party line. In conclusion, I would offer and all | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
to be side opposite. If they genuinely believe in keeping | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
promises to the electorate, let's start with the right honourable | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
member's promised copy they had the referendum and they lost. Let's work | :37:18. | :37:25. | |
together to strengthen Scotland. Hear, hear! | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to start with a piece of | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
context as well. The reason why we are here discussing this is because | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
of what happened the 18th of September last year. With the | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
Scottish people were invited to give their views in the proposition as to | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
whether Scotland should be a self-governing nation. They voted | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
55-45, no, to that proposition. I do not look into the minds and know the | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
domain they settle well with all of the people that voted in that | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
referendum. But I do know this, that amongst the 55% who voted no, there | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
were plenty of people who thought that the union as exist today is | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
exactly the type of place they would like to live in and they had no | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
quarrel with it. They like the constitutional settlement. Also | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
amongst that percentage, in the group that made the difference to | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
the outcome were people who believed what they were told by the leaders | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
of all the unionist parties, that in fact be voting the 18th of September | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
was not able for the state it was a vote for a new relationship within | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
the union where additional powers were being transferred. That was the | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
valve that was signed by the leader of the right honourable gentleman's | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
party and by two other party leaders who now must be this quite as | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
former. But it was put front and centre in front of the electorate. | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
That is why people voted no to that proposition. We are to have the | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
Smith comes commission to consider what that would be. If you seek a | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
consensus, the bar will be pretty low. But the Smith omission came out | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
with a report on how these proposals to greater devolution might be | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
implemented -- Smith commission. Our party at the time signed off on | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
them, but that this was only a floor, not a ceiling to be | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
aspirations we have for self-government. Said that Smith did | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
not go far enough to satisfy that. Then we get to the beginning of this | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
year we have the first draft of the bill we are now discussing, | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
published by the government. It was quite clear than that in fact I'm of | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
the proposals had been watered down even more. Now we have the Smith | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
commission not delivering their bow and we have a draft bill, not even | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
delivering the Smith commission. That is not just our view, but that | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
certainly was of the right honourable gentleman who spoke last. | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
We would say that, wouldn't we? Because we will be dissatisfied with | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
what ever happened. Maybe we will, but your party may be a unfamiliar | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
with the concept of Mendes and consent, but we are quite relaxed | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
about it. -- meditation and consent. So we put this to be Scottish | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
electorate. We put this to be people of Scotland. We do not have to guess | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
what was in their minds because we know what they did in the general | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
election in May. My honourable friend has explained a quotient from | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
our manifesto in which we stood in that election. Let us be extremely | :40:31. | :40:39. | |
clear. This was not .97 of our manifesto, it was point number one. | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
It was the main steam of the general election of Scotland. It was the | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
central proposition of our party that there should be a additional | :40:47. | :40:48. | |
powers, come to be Scottish government, over and beyond what was | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
in the bill. I would be happy to give weight come above we would get | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
a Joe. LAUGHTER Again, part of the disrespect, Adam | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
Deputy Speaker. Does the honourable gentleman accept that last year's | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
referendum was once in a lifetime? Yes or no? I never said that. I | :41:08. | :41:19. | |
accept... I accept this. And I put it back to you. I think every | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
government should accept this. No government has the right to stand in | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
the way of people who wish a particular point for new direction. | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
Hear, hear! I prefer to make some progress, if I | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
may. I give way in a moment. So we sought a mandate and we got a | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
mandate. And whatever happens here today, please understand that this | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
bill does not satisfy the aspirations of the Scottish people | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
for greater control over their own affairs. This bill is a response to | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
be Smith commission. We are still waiting for what the government's | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
response to be general election was when the people of Scotland made | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
their view quite clear. Whatever happens today, this is not over. We | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
should be coming back during the next five years of our domain on | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
this chamber to argue again and again for more powers for the | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
Scottish Government to satisfy the aspirations of the Scottish people. | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
If that takes a further Scotland bill as some states later on, then | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
so be it. Hear, hear! With the member not understand that | :42:27. | :42:33. | |
the rest of the UK also would like to have a say in this debate. This | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
debate is not just about Gotland, it is about in my case and everyone | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
else, you had a very good indication of how the Scottish, the rest of us | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
have not had the chance to discuss exactly the same points with our own | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
electorate. The message I was given loud and clear from my Northern | :42:54. | :43:05. | |
Irish electorate... Take a more that the message I got from my electorate | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
was that the union is in danger and they do not want it to fall apart. | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
They want all of us to work together. You must speak for the | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
people that elected you and I will speak for the people that elected | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
me. Hear, hear! As far as I'm concerned I am | :43:21. | :43:22. | |
discussing the Scotland bill as a molded. So we have the situation | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
where this bill falls far short of the expectations, not just that this | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
party had, but the people of Scotland. Scottish civic society, | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
trade unions, churches, volunteer organisations, all throughout | :43:38. | :43:39. | |
Scotland they are disappointed at the poverty ambition of the | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
Secretary of State in this government in terms of what is in | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
this bill. Would've come back to be bill itself. I guess is all we have | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
for the present. I don't normally read, but I wanted to read this so I | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
do not get it wrong. The Secretary of State said on the 8th of June" I | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
know absolutely that the Scotland bill does fulfil in full the | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
recommendations of the Smith commission". Obviously he has had | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
the benefit of the summit to consider the situation and to | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
understand whether that statement is in fact true. It most seems that it | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
could not have been true because we have had no less I'm a -- 128 | :44:19. | :44:26. | |
amendments from the government to their own bill. I would submit that | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
never in the field of discussion on legislation, has a proposal been so | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
amended by its proposers and still managed to fall so far short of its | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
objectives. Hear, hear! Nonetheless it is welcome that | :44:40. | :44:41. | |
second thoughts are being heard. And that some improvements are being | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
made. I would like to start with is question of permanents. I wonder why | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
it has taken now to happen, but it is good that in New Clause 12 that | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
we have the agreement that the Scottish Parliament will not be | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
taken away come and dissolved, or otherwise removed without first | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
there being an decider amongst the Scottish people and folding in a | :45:08. | :45:09. | |
referendum that that is what they want to do. I am pleased the Mac at | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
the Secretary of State in bringing for that amendment that | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
recognises... July with the people of Scotland, whose government we are | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
discussing. That it lies with the people. I would to discuss our | :45:25. | :45:33. | |
proposal, the New Clause 36, which takes principles are pretty a little | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
bit further. It says that when we come to discussions in the future | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
about the arrangement for the government of Scotland is to be the | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
people of Scotland's Parliament that determine what those discussions are | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
in a timetable on which they are put to the people in a referendum. That | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
seems only a logical extension. If not the Scottish Parliament to | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
consider and respond to demands for a future referendum, where there | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
would be one, then who else should it be? It would be ridiculous that | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
this Parliament should retain that power for itself. I wanted to talk | :46:10. | :46:21. | |
about the sole convention. The commission was why clear when is | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
that the Sewell convention should be enshrined in that you. That bill, | :46:26. | :46:27. | |
after all this time does not make that happen. The Sewell convention | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
is one that that the Imperial Parliament should not interfere in | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
devolved decisions by the Scottish Parliament or other devolved | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
assemblies. So why can we not enshrined that if we pass the SNP | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
amendment today we will make that happen? That one China principle | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
assisted -- that was enshrined the principle of subsidiarity. I want to | :46:55. | :47:02. | |
give him the qualification of the Sewell convention. If he does push | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
that to build this evening, will certainly support that and maybe | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
attack some other mentioned that need to be carried -- other benches. | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
The principle here is quite simple. You do not keep a dog and fight | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
yourself, do you? You have to try and allow organisations to get on | :47:23. | :47:29. | |
with it. I wanted to, and this main response of the honourable member, | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
because I was disappointed that he took almost 2% of the time available | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
to us in this debate at this time to discuss not constitutional | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
principles of the government of Scotland, but in order to pursue his | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
subjects that he feels very concerned about in terms of the | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
decentralization of services. What we are discussing is a change in the | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
Constitution of arrangements between Scotland and England within the | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
Union. We are talking about giving more authority and confidence is to | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
be Scottish Government. That is not the same thing at all as a | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
decentralization of the administration of public services. I | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
think you are wrong, I am will not worded the way in making friends | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
with your debate, to do what you did earlier. Finally, I wanted to talk | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
about fiscal autonomy. I think some of the opponents of this might take | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
this away at the last time, I hope it has been debated... Something we | :48:32. | :48:38. | |
would forget about, but believe me we have not forgot about it. We | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
absolutely want the Scottish Government to have control over the | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
economy in Scotland. We want the ability to grow the economy, the | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
higher tease in line with the aspirations of the people of | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
Scotland -- the priorities in my. I have yet to hear from the honourable | :48:53. | :49:00. | |
member, a principal argument against it. The honourable member describes | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
this black hole of the time, but that is not an argument of | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
principle. That is not an argument against giving the Scottish | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
government control over economic affairs, that is an argument to | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
saying we should make sure we get it right and prepare for that | :49:21. | :49:22. | |
devolution of powers. So I hope wrapped in the future, he might come | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
around to that way of thinking, which is why we shall be objecting | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
to the proposal which is here to give a conservative Secretary of | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
State the power to set up a commission to look into whether or | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
not this could happen. Because the conservative Secretary of State has | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
already made clear his intentions in this regard. Just finishing up, if I | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
may. So we will be putting this again, and it will be by the way the | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
subject of future debate in Scotland. I will tell you what the | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
grandest commission of all will be in this debate. It will be the | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
electorate of Scotland, who in six or seven months' time will get | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
another opportunity to decide whether they want to press ahead and | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
have better economic powers for their government. We will get | :50:07. | :50:08. | |
another mandate and come to make that argument again. My final | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
comments on the framework to which the honourable member has already | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
referred, it is not for us here today. To get involved or even | :50:19. | :50:25. | |
seek... The discussion that is going on between Scottish and UK ministers | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
over the fiscal framework. But we do have to be absolutely clear over | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
what is at stake here. E Smith commission was very clear. It's said | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
that whatever powers are devolved to Scotland, it should be at no | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
detriment. In other words at the point of transfer of the power, the | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
Scottish budget should not suffer as a consequence. I would like to hear | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
from the secretary of state in the summing up that he believes in | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
Appenzell and that that is gaining the discussions that he is having | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
with Scottish ministers -- police in that principles. If this is used as | :50:59. | :51:07. | |
a device... And not provide adequate funding for the delivery of new | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
powers, then he will do a disservice and fuel that we will come back with | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
a new bill which will be considerably improved from this one. | :51:17. | :51:24. | |
Hear, hear! In September 1997, I travelled from | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
Dudley to Glasgow and two and number -- and to Edinburgh to support the | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
campaign. Are a member helping out. There is an awful lot of noise from | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
the chamber. And someone is on their feet speaking. Thank you. Thank you, | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. I remember organising events which I told you | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
the honourable gentleman who has just left the chamber, appearing at | :51:49. | :51:56. | |
the sight of the Royal high school in Edinburgh. To decide what will | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
become the Scottish Parliament. Madam Deputy Speaker, members of the | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
SMP, when I was there hoping the referendum in 1997 -- SNP. They did | :52:08. | :52:14. | |
not object so much been from people of England taking interest and costs | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
politics. That led to be establishment of the Scottish | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
Parliament. It will make it a permanent part of the UK's | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
Constitution. I want to set out as well in the speech come a this will | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
be the -- his will be the shortest we've heard this afternoon. I wanted | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
to set out some comments on greater decentralization. Unlike my | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
honourable member from Nottingham North. The biggest transfer of power | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
since the Scotland Act of 1998. This bill will make the Scottish armament | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. With power | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
over most income tax and much of social security in the way -- I give | :52:58. | :53:05. | |
way. I wonder if the Member for Dudley North can answer a simple | :53:06. | :53:07. | |
question. Does he think these proposals are as close to a federal | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
state as you can be? Just a simple yes or no? In these proposals, are | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
setting out as I have said, proposals was will know the Scottish | :53:21. | :53:22. | |
Parliament the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
That has been the driving force he hide this bill. We pushed to make | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
sure Scotland has all the extra powers, including over welfare, new | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
Social Security system, to ensure it will have the opportunity to | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
mitigate the impact of Tory cuts to tax credits. Despite their | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
desperation to be disappointed, their determination to feel | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
grievance and stoke resentment, the S has said that if you give the | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
Scottish public and the powers it needs to create a new Social | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
Security system in Scotland -- SNP. When asked whether the bill gives | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
power to make them any reduction in tax credits, the SNP spokesperson | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
said "the amendments should give the Scottish Parliament those powers". | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
But despite that, a series of amendments including ten new clauses | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
on national issues, the living wage, employment legislation, | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
industrial relations, benefits, full fiscal autonomy and the power to | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
decide where and when to hold a referendum. What we consider those | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
powers, I think we ought to look first at this administration as | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
exercise the powers it already holds. In 2001, surgeons at a party | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
that is now in the second term of office cannot avoid this possibility | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
for its own fate. I think she is absolutely right on that. I think | :54:44. | :54:45. | |
that is absolutely right. Like Kurt Thomas I think they should be judged | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
on their record of running Scotland's schools and hospitals. I | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
agree with my honourable friend from Nottingham North because the truth | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
is that in Scotland schools, the gaps between the richest and the | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
rest is growing. Its hospitals are struggling. And its housing system | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
is in crisis. The separatist and now the establishment... | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
threatening to strike. Perhaps the honourable gentleman may wish to do | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
a direct comparison of performance before he attacks. I will, to my | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
break of a burning the health service shortly. Before I do that no | :55:30. | :55:36. | |
shouting -- no shutting out please. Is hard to hear what he is saying. I | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
do not think it is appropriate to shop. If people want to speak, they | :55:41. | :55:48. | |
can intervene. No shouting! They are behaving like nationalist bullies. | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
When they try to silence anybody who has a different view and they want | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
to Britain whether you are allowed to take place in a debate in this | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
chamber is where you represent or the action that you have. It is a | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
disgrace. It really is a complete disgrace. Isn't it a disgrace that | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
the people of Scotland, including labour support and conservatives, | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
who voted decisively to reject separatism are being completely | :56:24. | :56:25. | |
ignored by the honourable members today? It is. It is a disgrace. What | :56:26. | :56:34. | |
what is an even bigger disgrace is the state of education and Scotland, | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
run by the SNP. Where the gap between the richest and the rest | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
purse since. Were the poor such as him and Scotland are not getting the | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
opportunity that they should. Young people from deprived backgrounds are | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
facing grants that have been cut, making them the lowest in the UK. | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
Every year, more than 6000 children and Scotland are unable to read | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
properly and people from a wealthy background are twice as likely to | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
get a hype rate than people from deprived backgrounds. People from | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
wealthy backgrounds are twice as likely to go onto higher education | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
than those from deprived backgrounds. In further education, | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
there are 140,000 fewer students going to in Scotland. -The first | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
that's funding for colleges have been cut down. Style had the lowest | :57:23. | :57:30. | |
percentage of college entrance. As I said, grants and Berbers refer | :57:31. | :57:39. | |
students have been cut by 35%. The Honorable Lady a moment ago asked me | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
about the HMS. Did that under the SNP, standard has been slipping. | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
Waiting times have been missed and pressures increasing on nurses and | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
doctors. From the impartial Scottish Parliament Center, show that the SNP | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
have not increase investment in the NHS as much as in England, despite | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
rising demand. The AMD target has not been met for six years. Over | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
400,000 people have had to wait more than four hours in... Says the | :58:11. | :58:17. | |
governor 11. The new house building Glasgow posts did the lowest waiting | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
time targets at this opening. On 77% of patients were saying within four | :58:24. | :58:31. | |
hours. Only one third, I would tell her that only one third of NHS | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
Scotland staff say there is enough staff for them to do the job | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
properly. This by promising Les Obama in the area NHS, spending on | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
health services is at its high since devolution. I also agree with my | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
Honorable friend from Nottingham North on the case of a great | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
centralisation from Holly Road to local authorities. That might enable | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
local authorities and Scotland to tackle the housing crisis across the | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
country. Colonization the biggest housing crisis since the Second | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
World War. Barely 180,000 people on social housing waiting list. | :59:08. | :59:14. | |
Scotland estimated will be more than 500 new homes -- build in the next | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
25 years. In 2007, the year labour left house in Scotland, there were | :59:19. | :59:25. | |
25,000 housing completions. In 2410, there were just 15,000, at 40% | :59:26. | :59:32. | |
reduction. When I'd visited Edinburg last weekend, I was stunned, he | :59:33. | :59:40. | |
thinks it is funny. I think is a disgrace the level... An absolute | :59:41. | :59:46. | |
disgrace for which his colleagues in the SNP should be thoroughly | :59:47. | :59:49. | |
ashamed. Everyone knows that under the conservatives poverty is | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
increasing across the country. I saw many more rough sleepers on the | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
streets of Edinburgh denies he ever on the streets of Birmingham, which | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
is a much bigger city. On for school autonomy, I agree with New Clause | :00:06. | :00:11. | |
one of the case for commission. The I have has had said that the SNP's | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
plan would leave a sample of 6 billion black hole in Scotland. The | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
separatists have absolutely no idea how to feel. A full independent | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
review that labour Scotland for the get the facts. I think having | :00:29. | :00:37. | |
listened to this debate, having I'll be forgiven for thinking that the | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
SNP would rather invent rows with the rest of the UK didn't apply for | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
people across Scotland. Their whole approach is designed to drive | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
resentment of them blame everyone else for their failings. Instead of | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
being held to account for the record, they want to blame the | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
people down south for everything that goes wrong. Everything that | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
goes right in Scotland, is down to the SNP. Error thing that goes | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
wrong, down to the rest of us. The truth is, they are not interested in | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
policy. They are successful at breaking of us. The truth is, they | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
are not interested in policy. They are successful at breaking up the | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
country for having the rejected in the referendum, they try to engineer | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
the separation. Wanted to the English and undermining labour | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
because they know they have more chance of a successful vote in a | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
referendum with a Tovar government in place in Westminster. They are | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
more interested in breaking a Britain that improving the health | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
service, improving education, or providing housing for people in | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
Scotland. It is much easier to blame everything on a supposedly wicked | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
Westminster, then trying to use the powers that they have to improve | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
things in Scotland. In fact, the last thing they want to do is solve | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
the problems in education or health or housing. Then, they would not be | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
able to stoke resentment, fuel girders, and blamed the nasty | :01:55. | :02:02. | |
English for causing it. It is the perpetual that went. Blame everyone | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
else for you fellas, and pretend that everything will be solved if | :02:06. | :02:16. | |
only the country was broken up. In contrast to the last these, which | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
was an ill-informed diatribe of criticism about the Scottish | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
Government, hype right to address the bill that is before us today. | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
I'm going to give what precious time that we have to speak in favour of | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
the amendment 204. This amendment was introduced to the build a | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
subsection of Clause 11 which would move the Human Rights Act from the | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
list protected this provisions in the Scotland Act. This would have | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
the effect of removing the Human Rights Act from the list of | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
enactments, that cannot be defined by the Scottish Parliament. In the | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
Scottish Parliament was able to modify the Human Rights Act, to | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
allow the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament to fully | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
establish a human rights regime and Scotland, regardless of where the | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
Human Rights Act was appealed and the Parliament in London. This | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
government, which has no mandate in London -- Scotland, has made clear | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
that it is their intention to repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
with the Bill of Rights. They have made it clear that the scorn | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
European and international norms of human rights and jurisdiction of the | :03:24. | :03:25. | |
European courts, have made clear that they want to replace the Human | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
Rights Act with a watered-down version of the rights and | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
protection, was presently everybody in the UK enjoys. Without that in | :03:33. | :03:41. | |
the Times yesterday. Would you not and Scotland want to have the terms | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
of the debate on human rights and Scotland dictated by this | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
Parliament. Because in Scotland, we have a very different agenda. There | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
is no Man Tate and Scotland overbilling the Human Rights Act. | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
Presuming that that's preserving that with the issue during the | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
campaign. The Scottish National Party has consistently repeal the | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
act, and as my friend has already said, we won the general election in | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
Scotland. 11 includes labour and Liberal Democrats so representatives | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
and Scotland, 58 and 59 Scottish in these polls to repeal the act. Last | :04:24. | :04:34. | |
year, the Scottish Parliament voted by a the balls to ten volts to | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
endorse the act. And civic society in Scotland from the FT UC, to the | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
Church of Scotland are opposed to repealing the act. Nevertheless, the | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
dish UK Government has repeatedly confirmed that they intend to go | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
ahead to repeal the act, and they would apply equally in Scotland and | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
England, Wales, and Arlen. And Scotland, we are very concerned by | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
from the ministers of this government, which is just a believe | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
that they could repeal the act without consulting the Scottish | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
Parliament. Their arguments seems that they would not need a | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
legislative consent motion. But that is incorrect. Human rights are not a | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
reserved matter under the delusion sentiment. Protect the Human Rights | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
Act against modification by the Scottish Parliament, the human | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
rights per se are not the deferred matter. They are not listed assets | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
of months they reserved matters set out in... . It was part of the late | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
Donald Dewar's speech that all methods would be devolved, they were | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
specifically reserves. Human rights are not specifically reserve. Human | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
rights is bred into the Scotland Act. So that the Scottish Parliament | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
and Scottish ministers cannot carry any legislative or act that is | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
incompatible with European Commission human rights. I will make | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
progress. Referred quite a lot from the honourable gentleman, these are | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
important parts of grade concern to the Scottish electorate and I want | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
to make very clear. In Scotland, we have an national election -- action | :06:23. | :06:32. | |
plan for human rights, we have a United Nations commission. And our | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
commitment to human rights extends not only to the, bait but beyond | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
that the social economic rights. Do our part on social justice -- to our | :06:43. | :06:54. | |
part on social justice, so I will give way... For her views. She read | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
this and very important issues. But she is prejudging what the Secretary | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
of State for Justice might bring before this House. It might be a | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
beefed-up human rights regime that the Scottish people will want. It is | :07:07. | :07:19. | |
hard to take that point seriously. Since we have been in this house, | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
the judicious questioning of the Government front bench we have | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
established that one of the Government front bench man concerned | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
with Human Rights Act is a fear that they should have the take account of | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
the decisions of the core. That is all the act says. And fitting that | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
we want to take account of European and international norms, I can only | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
assume that what they want to introduce to to Human Rights Act is | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
something that been considerably watered-down from the EC HR. That is | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
a logical deduction. , give way to the gentleman on the front bench. | :07:59. | :08:07. | |
Thank you very much indeed. I want to make the point that I agree with | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
her what she said about the Human Rights Act, but would she accept | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
that what she says about Scotland also applies to Wales? I do. As our | :08:16. | :08:24. | |
First Minister has made clear, it is our intention to do everything we | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
can to preserve the Human Rights Act for the whole of the United Kingdom. | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
In fact, if the government benches would recognise the human rights are | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
not a reserved matter, and would recognise that there has to be a | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
legislative consent motion, we may be able to help friends across this | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
house. We would abuse a legislative consent to the Human Rights Act and | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
that we will be one way of forgetting it for the whole of the | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
United Kingdom. But the point of my speech today is to leave an | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
amendment which gives the Scottish Parliament the option in the event | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
that all our attempts failed to preserve the Human Rights Act for | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
the whole of the UK. The point of this amendment is to give the | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
Scottish Parliament the chance to fully implement a replacement for | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
the act and Scotland. My concern is this. The government has said | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
repeatedly that they do not recognise the human rights pride of | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
all matter. They said they are reserve. So we have to have a | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
fallback position in Scotland. I the government to remember their respect | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
agenda. Resume to remember and to go back to the Scotland Act with some | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
decent lawyers and look at it carefully and they will see that | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
human rights are not a reserved matter, and that they had devolved. | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
That is a very sizeable body of academic opinion that supports that. | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
The purpose of this of him at 204, is to recognise that when it comes | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
to the proper priorities of... The respect agenda with Steve Prime | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
Minister had spoken of often in the past is consigned to the dustbin of | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
history, along with the assurance that Scotland is an equal partner is | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
a beginning in, and various other promises. Have made it clear that it | :10:14. | :10:21. | |
is a prime intention and the SNP to fight to retain the Human Rights Act | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
for the whole of the UK. However, the disrespect with our previous | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
amendment have been met, and the bridge and exclusion of all Scottish | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
MPs from the joint committee of human rights, makes me and my | :10:37. | :10:44. | |
colleagues gives us no confidence that we will be respected by this | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
Parliament. From a sedentary position, the conservative backbench | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
responding to her point about the SNP being excluded from the human | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
rights committee, saying good. My she take the opportunity to take an | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
intervention on the judgement so he can explain why the party that | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
represents almost all constituencies in Scotland should be excluded from | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
the important committee? I am grateful for him bringing that to | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
attach a. I will be delighted to take the intervention. And to hear | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
why this Honorable member, who I believe is a lawyer of sorts, thinks | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
it is acceptable for all Scottish MPs to be included from the joint | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
committee. Will he tell us and the people of Scotland why he thinks | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
that? What is important is that we have sensible lawyers on the | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
committee. The lady keep stating that is not reserved matter. It is a | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
very obvious reserved matter to the UK Parliament. That is my point. I | :11:56. | :12:04. | |
am sure the viewers in Scotland who are watching now and the people who | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
will read this debate tomorrow will be very interested to hear what the | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
Honorable member has just said. And other interested to hear he thinks | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
it is acceptable to all be elected a of the Scottish electorate are | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
excluded from a joint committee of this house, whose purpose it is to | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
scrutinize bills of this house for human rights compliance. The six | :12:31. | :12:44. | |
unelected from of Lords... I am sure he will. I think what his | :12:45. | :12:53. | |
intervention indicates an underlining. The very reality of the | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
concerned that we have on the side of the House, that the wishes of the | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
Scottish electorate in relation to the preservation of the Human Rights | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
Act, would not be respected. I reiterate that we wish to meet, | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
cause with the Labour Party, the liberal Dems, member from Northern | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
Ireland, and members from every side of the House to preserve the Human | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
Rights Act for the whole of the United Kingdom. I want to, we want | :13:21. | :13:33. | |
to. I said we. Our primary position is that we intend to preserve the | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
act for the whole of this UK. However, the purpose of this | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
amendment is to give us the option to be sure that we can implement... | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
In the event that were not successful at keeping it for the | :13:50. | :13:59. | |
whole of the UK. Lasher, the Prime Minister said the Smith commission | :14:00. | :14:13. | |
to the kick-off party... Ensuring that devolution could not be | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
enforced at the Westminster government. Therefore, I know from | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
the UK governments... The provision should have been included in the | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
exception of the Scotland bill. Better late than never. The Smith | :14:28. | :14:35. | |
commission also reports dated that the commission... Unfortunately, the | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
UK governments proposals in this area all for far short of Smith. | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
Despite the ministers promised to... The UK governments current | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
cause and Parliament would not normally... The governments current | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
position on this method is ridiculous and risk weakening not | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
strengthening the convention. The Smith commission report. The bulk of | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
government that they will not normally legislate in about every is | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
will not suffice. There is a serious concerns that this is president. I | :15:11. | :15:19. | |
can already see where this is where the government encourages to abide | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
areas and Scotland. ... Housing is not. It is devolved to Scottish | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
Parliament. Part of the Immigration Bill, the UK Government want to | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
introduce the right to bring. This will compel landlords and tenants | :15:33. | :15:43. | |
status of. The UK Government will be sent to Scotland to secondary | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
legislation, without a legislative consent of the motion. Debated and | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
passed by the Scottish Parliament. For the more consultation, the | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
Scottish Government... Is said to have been brushed and extremely | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
limited. The Scottish Government are very concerned and this development | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
and the Minister asked for a meeting on this. Has replied he said, | :16:06. | :16:16. | |
overlay to immigration the soloist is not the ball so far. That want to | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
set these measures restrict access to housing. We have artist of the | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
housing is very much devolved. So much for the respect agenda. Much | :16:28. | :16:37. | |
lauded by Prime Minister Cameron. In regard to question the commission on | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
effective the thing as pragmatic and ensure that Elizabeth the Smith | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
commission recommendation. The UK Government approach to policymaking | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
can be jealous. Data but a double for this than the Conservatives must | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
should desire to abolish the Human Rights Act. He is making a | :16:54. | :17:03. | |
compelling argument. Legalizing... I do say to him that if he wishes to | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
push the cause -- cost to vote in a few minutes, will be happy to | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
support him on that. Otherwise, I'm afraid it would go down to the other | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
place to deal with. I appreciate the shadow secretary's answer. I'll that | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
I will my colleagues. The Human Rights Act is vital to as many ways. | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
Good the right life, freedom. Freedom of thought and belief. Right | :17:29. | :17:37. | |
to family life and private life. Right to free elections in education | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
to name a few. Human Rights Act extends to all public authorities of | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
Scotland and local governments. Amendment 204 would absolutely be | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
without that without the bald possibilities for human rights and | :17:54. | :17:55. | |
Scottish Parliament to safeguard human rights. The potential | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
abolition of the Human Rights Act will have... Would be an affront to | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
democracy at the conservative government use slender majority in | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
order to abolish the ad. And the cost of God the UK Government to | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
seek a legislative consent motion and all essences of was Mr. Also | :18:19. | :18:26. | |
apply in the UK Government to set up with the government under | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
legislation to make such an impact in Scotland. No confidence in the | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
last election. And parted that were wimpy in Scotland has rejected each | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
every amendment that has been before. And group that has 95% of | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
Scotland MPs. That that's the question... Ultimately rejected. The | :18:44. | :18:54. | |
conservatives must not ducking and diving one of the bill and stop | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
playing games with Scotland's pair of. The people of Scotland by | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
watching and it's time they are listened to. Are brought to support | :19:01. | :19:09. | |
New Clause 36, which will give parish to Scotland. If it is Friday | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
is mature respect, we're told is, then the Scottish Parliament elected | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
by the Scottish people up at the right to determine its own destiny. | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
The Secretary of State know the other members will be familiar with | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
the words of Lord Cooper from 1953, when he stated that the principle of | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinguished English principle | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
which is not come to buy and Scottish Constitutional Law. In | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
other words, it is the people of Scotland who have solved on. Would | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
come to this house with a mandate from the people of Scotland and a | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
half to be respected. A message to the government benches opposite is | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
that you do the English board for English lords. I thank the | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
gentleman. He stands in front of another distinguished by Honorable | :20:04. | :20:05. | |
member from this house. Does he agree with the member that last | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
years referendum was a once in a generation of there? Yes or no? I | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
always agree we'll my right honourable friend for Gordon, but | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
the point is the Scottish people that are added this Parliament. We | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
have to reflect upon is what is happening in this bill. We were | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
promised the bow to the max. As close to federalism as we could get. | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
It is this house and the government benches that are elected the people | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
of Scotland and the people of Scotland will reflect upon that. I | :20:41. | :20:49. | |
was enjoyed by both friends and favourite making his passionate | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
speeches. For the sake of clarity, that he read the second line of what | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
the Prime Minister said in regard to federalism? Element-the point is | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
that the Scottish people were promised by Gordon Brown that they | :21:03. | :21:04. | |
were going to get parish for purpose. They're going to have a | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
fair house Parliament. Has not been delivered tonight. I do see the | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
Secretary of State saying it is. 70%... Are going to be held at | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
Westminster. A 5% of fans over welfare are going to be held here at | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
Westminster. Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not know what that is, but it is | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
not a powerhouse of Parliament. In light of the challenges that we | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
face, with the credit cuts that which we will debate in the second | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
part tonight, we need to make sure that the Scottish Parliament have to | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
power to protect the people of Scotland. And we said to the Labour | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
Party, come with us, show that resolved to make sure that we can | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
protect the people that we need to in the country of Scotland. If the | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
gentleman is truly passionate about protecting the people of Scotland, | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
he will no doubt get to his feet until December and the people of | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
Scotland that he will restore any losses to tax credits for the | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
Scottish people, has committed to by the Scottish Labour Party. The | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
Scottish National Party has shown... Over the last two years | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
that we saw to litigate the cuts that have come from Westminster. | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
Hundred million pounds has been invested to discuss people to offset | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
the impacts of the bedroom tax. Will fight to defend the interests of the | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
Scottish people, as we have always done. A lot of money house that I | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
like the Labour Party in the benches next newest. We are not prepared to | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
give up the fight on tax credits. Has been rejected by the Lord, but | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
the Scottish Parliament is not... Ruled try to make that has credits | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
are I left off. I am grateful for the humble lady. Is about the | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
kindness aside and what we will strive to do. And Scotland, we | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
believe not and welfare, but Social Security. We believe in offering | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
protection to people of. We also believe in the principle that | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
society is a strong as its weakest link. At very different concept to | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
what we have in the parliament with the cuts that are coming to and | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
because that would not going to come any Autumn Statement. I say to this | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
house, will you respect the sovereignty of the Scottish people | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
who sent us here to the south? I go to ignore the wishes of the Scottish | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
people? I would say to ordinary members opposite, you have been | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
rejected wholesale on the ballot box in Scotland. Thing very carefully | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
before deciding a detailed, with an all-purpose it will be an English | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
beat to it in Scotland. Perhaps in this regard, the question we should | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
put to the Secretary of State, is he Scotland man in the Cabinet? Or is | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
he the cabinets man in Scotland? The Secretary of State should do the | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
honourable thing, except her amendments, and stand up for the | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
people Scotland. What is it to be? And what about the Labour Party? | :24:14. | :24:21. | |
Eparchy that once dominated the political last scheduled Scotland. | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
Maybe not quite yet extinct like the dodo, but more like a beached whale. | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
Jealous that you want to protect Scotland. If you want to make a | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
difference in Scotland, our amendments tonight but will you be | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
siding with their colleagues? Weber need to start learning lessons that | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
Scotland rejected them for a reason. You better start to get on the side | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
with us and the people of Scotland. Tonight is the chance for the House | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
that Scotland expects to be delivered. And the Scotland destiny | :24:53. | :25:00. | |
and Scotland chance. Not by voting for a bill that leaves us with a | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
hand tied behind our back, wide for government that is worse to | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
disadvantage our society. But in this MM and others, allows us to | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
deliver in the interest of our people. We need a Parliament that | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
will allow us to stand up for the people of Scotland and recognised | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
that people are sovereign. Let me finish by quoting Charles Parnell, | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
no man has the right to take the battery to a... No man has the right | :25:30. | :25:38. | |
to... And no further. It is in this context, that we need power to | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
determine and Scotland when and if we want to have a referendum. It is | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
in this contact that behalf should The acid test of this bill is | :25:45. | :26:03. | |
whether it it delivers on the recommendations of the Smith | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
commission. Objectively, assuming with all the amendments the | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
government has put forward, we believe that a bill that we have | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
before us goes a long way to delivering on the Smith commission. | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
Enough to say that the government has delivered on absolutely | :26:20. | :26:21. | |
everything, not to say. They clearly have not. I have to say it is on | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
this government that have come to this point, kicking and screaming. | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
To begin the report of the Smith commission of November 2014, the | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
government has had a long and painful journey. Nowhere is the | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
government's change of heart were clear than its own amendment, New | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
Clause 12. During the beginning stage it is constantly argued on | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
this side of the House to Scottish Parliament and the Scottish | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
government, or to be described as a permanent part of UK's tossed | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
additional arrangements. We argued that the phrase, recognises | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
permanent was less than what was recommended by the Smith commission | :27:06. | :27:07. | |
and that after Scottish Parliament Constitution that the committee | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
argued directly. The use of a phrase recognised as permanent had the | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
effect of weakening the Smith recommendation. I am pleased that | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
the government has listened. Some I think that this is all about | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
constitutional navel-gazing. But it is an extremely important point that | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
the Scottish Parliament is placed on a farm constitutional footing and | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
has the sovereignty of a Parliament, rest of the people of | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
Scotland. However, a question for the Secretary of State. If only the | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
issue of the UK's parliamentary sovereignty. We all know the classic | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
area of UK parliamentary sovereignty is stated in the introduction to the | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
law of the Constitution. According to this classic game, Parliament can | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
make a law on any subject that it chooses and there are no fundamental | :28:02. | :28:10. | |
laws that restrict its powers. The government's New Clause 12 is how it | :28:11. | :28:12. | |
suggests, a departure from that theory and that is something that I | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
would look at. With GE agree with me that apart from the boss 12, we are | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
making moderate but significant constitutional history -- would he | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
agree with me that in New Clause 12. This is essentially technically do | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
not technical in nature, but on the issue of elections I would like to | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
refer richly to amendments are to seven and 43. -- refer briefly. Of | :28:39. | :28:46. | |
course... Any part of democracy on free and open elections. Namely | :28:47. | :28:56. | |
government Clause 13 and causes 45 233. ... The government has the need | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
to involve some of the responsibilities of the electoral | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
commission to see that political parties are an amended so that the | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
functions of electoral commissions are with regard to the electoral | :29:14. | :29:22. | |
Scottish Parliament. Clause 43. With regard to so-called digital service. | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
As I understand it, this relates to the ability to register online for | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
the electoral register. This is very important, given the introduction of | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
individual electoral registration. But I would ask the Minister for | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
clarification on two points. Firstly, of those the reference of | :29:39. | :29:49. | |
Scottish ministers... Is replete in Clause 43. I would appreciate if the | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
government would explain what exactly is this negative procedure | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
and how it would work copy that is my first question. The second | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
question is with regard to the online registration system, is it | :30:02. | :30:03. | |
possible that there could be confusion about which electors are | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
able to vote in which elections? The Scottish Parliament am a quite | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
frankly, has decided the for 16-17 -year-old for all Scottish | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
elections. These individuals will be denied a vote in Westminster | :30:20. | :30:21. | |
elections. Is that not a danger that it could be widespread confusion, | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
particularly of the online registration technology is being | :30:27. | :30:28. | |
used for both Westminster and Scottish elections? Now, Madam | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
Deputy Speaker, implying pleased that the government has a similar | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
debate that had taken place as far as Clause 12 is concerned, I am | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
disappointed that the government has not brought forward amendment on the | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
school convention and its working -- Sewell convention. We argued, as did | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
the SNP, that we were concerned of the interpretation of the Sewell | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
convention. Concerned about general default competence. -- devolved. | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
There is impotence of the word normally. As I said during the | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
committee stage, how long is a piece of string? The word normally is | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
legally imprecise and that is why we are moving amendment seven, eight, | :31:14. | :31:23. | |
nine, and ten. The name of the right honourable member was put forward in | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
a minute, but sadly cannot be rehearsed today. Numbered New Clause | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
35, in the name of the honourable Member for Moray, sticks to place on | :31:33. | :31:41. | |
putting. We are happy to give a new laws our support if he pushes it to | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
a vote. If we are supporting a member for New Clause 35, we are | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
certainly not supporting his New Clause 36. This relates to future | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
referendums on Scottish independence. A statement to the | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
press over the weekend, the honourable Member for Moray said, | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
they called him whether or not Scott in -- Scotland is a referendum in | :32:11. | :32:12. | |
the future should be up to the people and in the hands of the | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
Scottish Parliament rather than the UK Parliament. I will give way. The | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
Smith commission, Clause 18, it is agreed that nothing in this report | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
coming from an independent country, in the future should the people of | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
Scotland so choose a copy of the people of Scotland did not have the | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
power to choose, how is that Clause to stand the test of time? Hear, | :32:31. | :32:32. | |
hear! I might be slightly mistaken, but I | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
thought the Scottish people had making the decision. It is a very | :32:38. | :32:47. | |
wear and firm decision. If there is a move towards having a referendum | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
in the future, I will give way in a second... In terms of the history of | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
this. The referendum happen in September and the Smith commission, | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
which this is a direct quote from, happened after that. So all parties | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
decided that nothing to prevent Scotland from coming independent if | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
it does so wish. Yet here it is trying to do exactly that. Hear, | :33:09. | :33:10. | |
hear! No one is in content to give the | :33:11. | :33:19. | |
people of Scotland anything. I would remind him that there was a | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
prominent member of the SNP that said the globe do not gold plating | :33:23. | :33:31. | |
was out... The situation exists that the Scottish Parliament has the | :33:32. | :33:33. | |
power to have a referendum. What this amendment seeks to do is take | :33:34. | :33:40. | |
away the caveats which are based on discussion, which are all the more | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
reasonable format. I will give way. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I am | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
grateful to him for giving way. Would you agree with me that this | :33:50. | :33:51. | |
obsession with organising and other referendum proves a central point | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
that has been made by myself and other in this debate, which is that | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
there must more interested in breaking up written than getting on | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
and delivering for the people of Scotland and improving the health | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
service and the education system, and providing the homes that people | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
Scotland need -- breaking up written? I couldn't agree more. | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
Sensually devolution is not about partnership, divorce, separation, | :34:18. | :34:25. | |
breaking a Briton. It is about establishing partnership. So the | :34:26. | :34:27. | |
people of Britain can't work together in a harmonious way. I will | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
give way again, for the third time. It sounded like he said the Scottish | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
Parliament has the power to call a referendum. It does not have the | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
power. That is why we want to give it the power with our amendment. | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
What the amendment essentially seeks to do is to take away the caveats. | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
The caveats are essential in defining the partnership. It is not | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
simply the question of the Scottish Parliament deciding that it by | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
itself wants to do it. I give way yet again. Oh I am very grateful to | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
be honourable gentleman. He is a very gracious with his time. This is | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
an important point because it does come down to the issue as to whether | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
or not the Scottish people are electing a government that wants to | :35:13. | :35:14. | |
have a referendum of independence, has the power to do so. If you do | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
not accept our amendment tonight, that power resides with Westminster. | :35:20. | :35:21. | |
It does not resign with the Scottish people, it does not reside with the | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
Scottish Parliament. Has got nothing to do with caveats. I think it is | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
very sad indeed for people of Scotland, that there is an obsession | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
with having a referendum at all costs. I've given away four times | :35:36. | :35:50. | |
already. The situation is... We are not prepared to have a referendum, | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
not prepared to have the Constitution be hijacked by this | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
issue of a referendum. To try to maneuver the situation which it can | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
have a break-up of the UK. That it's not what devolution is all about. | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
That is valid the Smith commission is all about. It is about the people | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
working together. If I can make a little bit of progress, if I may. | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
The fact is that these issues are not dry constitutional issues, but | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
had impact on everyday life about what is happening in Scotland with | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
regard to be trade union bill -- the right constitutional issues. Under | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
the Sewell convention, there is need for a legislative of emotion. -- | :36:33. | :36:40. | |
consent motion. If it is to apply in Scotland and any DeVault area. | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
According to a strict legal interpretation, the bill coming | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
before the House seeks to amend the trade union and labour consolidation | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
at 1992. Therefore it is argued that is not involve areas of devolved | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
competence. However in practical terms, during very much areas of | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
devolved competence, by placing requirements on local authorities in | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
Scotland. It is wrong we would argue that the UK government is able to | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
legislate from devolved authorities in this way. That is why all labour | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
councils in Scotland, and by the SNP, have agreed a stance on | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
noncompliance. The Westminster government has not sought a | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
legislative consent motion from the Scottish Parliament, but Labour will | :37:31. | :37:32. | |
bring forth a legislative consent motion in order to the nightly build | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
up confidence of a Scotland devolved service. I mentioned local | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
authorities. I would like to draw attention of the House as I have | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
already done on a number of occasions, to New Clause seven, | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
eight, and nine. In the name of honourable member for Nottingham. | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
These amendments made the point that two supporters of devolution, the | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
power should reside to the most appropriate level as close to be | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
people as possible. They recognise that there is a real issue in | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
Scotland, that discusses government seems to many people to be more | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
concerned about exercising power itself, rather than empowering | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
people in their local communities. The SNP claim to be good Europeans, | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
but I am afraid that they shall very little practical support for helping | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
a European principle of bringing power closer to be people. You have | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
a chance to put it right tonight. As was noted when we discussed it in | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
committee of the whole house, part two of the bill evolves new powers | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
to Scotland over income tax and other taxes. The Scottish government | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
will happen so over it income tax rates and thresholds and complete | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
freedom over the levels of which those rates and thresholds are set | :38:52. | :39:02. | |
-- full power over. ... Income tax over 2013-14. That effect | :39:03. | :39:12. | |
considerable sum. A degree of response ability on the Scottish | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
Parliament. If they wish the Scottish Parliament, whatever its | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
political complexion, would increase liability could. Scottish Labour has | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
already said out how we would use those new powers. We would reset the | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
additional rate to 50 pants, so that those who aren't over ?150,000 | :39:30. | :39:37. | |
contribute a little more, as I think most fair-minded individuals would | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
agree that they could afford to do -- 50 pants. We would not implement | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
the government's plans to increase the higher rate threshold. Instead | :39:48. | :39:56. | |
we would... Estimated to be over ?44 billion, a part of the UK | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
government's work penalty. That is tax credit cut. This decision will | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
benefit a quarter of a million Scottish families who are now he's | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
having to pay ?1300 a year because of this government. That is an | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
example of what can be done with new powers if we have the courage and | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
conviction and the political will to use them correctly. We, as Labour | :40:21. | :40:29. | |
members, support these powers and so it will come as no surprise that we | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
remain utterly convinced by amendment two to four from the SNP. | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
This amendment would go beyond and that will be Scottish Parliament to | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
remove reservations and taxation, borrowing and public expenditure -- | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
amendment 224. We have learned over the last few minutes how confused | :40:51. | :41:02. | |
the SNP are on this issue of FFA, fiscal devolution on autonomy. The | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
confusion was clearly shown during the committee stage of this bill | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
when I asked that economics spokesman, the future as think the | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
government would increase operation times -- SNP government? The | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
response was yes. A future labour government would increase it. | :41:19. | :41:27. | |
Decrease it, keep it the same, but use amendment in way. In other | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
words, the SNP are totally utterly confused. Is taxation of powers for | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
the sake of it, not for what they want to do with it. It is simply not | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
thought out. I will give way. Does he, Ira for to his own New Clause | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
one. Do I take it now because the Labour Party would want to have an | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
independent commission look at fiscal autonomy that they are | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
increasingly open-minded about a? And does he think this removes | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
mentality in Scotland, if they had to take forward the decisions it | :42:03. | :42:09. | |
will be difficult for them to blame the UK? We believe that the facts | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
should be allowed to speak for themselves. It is our view that the | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
case has not been made and cannot be made. But what we will do not want | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
to see is a transpiring independent body who will come to that | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
conclusion. We are confident that they will. I will give way. I am | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
grateful to the honourable member for giving way. Would he not agree | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
with the shadow Chancellor who also walked through those lobbies with | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
us, for full fiscal autonomy earlier this year? He did it for his own | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
reasons and for different reasons. LAUGHTER | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
But for me, what was really obvious and to most telling thing was that | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
it was the Tory right and be SNP nationalists who are as one. English | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
nationalism and Scottish nationalism together! That I thought looked the | :42:59. | :43:07. | |
most telling point. They went through, the Nationalists and the | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
extreme right, says it all. I will give way. I think my honourable | :43:14. | :43:23. | |
friend for giving way to copy I know it means a student of history. You | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
would know there is a test... Of political institutions. It is about | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
the practical fat that institutions make. Would he agree it would be | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
useful to know from the SNP what rightly they intend to do with these | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
powers? Yes indeed. The rhetoric as we have heard this afternoon. Strong | :43:42. | :43:52. | |
on rhetoric. Not from us longer I suspect, because the Scottish people | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
will rumble when they go beneath you rhetoric and find that there is | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
little substance of there. He is very generous. But could just be | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
that the Tory right he described it, and the labour chattel Chancellor -- | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
shadow Chancellor both recognise that the one way to defeat | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
nationalism is actually to have a real Parliament in Scotland, with | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
full power over what it taxes and spends? And at that stage the SNP | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
would have to take response ability for their own actions, they would | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
become a grown-up political party? One of the key reasons why we are | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
broadly in support of what the government are belatedly proposing | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
is that we believe that we will give new responsibilities to the Scottish | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
Parliament to achieve, or try to achieve, substantial things on | :44:49. | :44:50. | |
behalf of the Scottish people. At think it is the case to say. The | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
response ability and power global together. That is why these | :44:56. | :45:02. | |
measures, I stand forward. And moment ago he expressed surprise | :45:03. | :45:05. | |
that the SNP and Tory right were bolting together on full fiscal | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
autonomy. News as to why he would be surprised, given that he was their | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
SNP who brought down the labour government... Hear, hear! | :45:14. | :45:21. | |
I don't know what she is shopping for, given that she wasn't until | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
very recently a Tory herself! 18 years of Thatcherism and all the | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
problems for which are now whingeing. LAUGHTER | :45:34. | :45:41. | |
That is all I would say, it is likelier, isn't it? -- quite clear. | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
That have been humbled. Progress in a slightly more sedated manner, as I | :45:49. | :45:58. | |
may. Clause one established an independent commission on full | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
fiscal autonomy to scrutinize the potential on Scotland's economy and | :46:02. | :46:08. | |
public finances. The New Clause will require the Secretary of State for | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
Scotland to establish an independent commission... At first appointed in | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
consultation of a Treasury select committee and Scottish affairs | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
committee. And they will publish a report by the 31st of March, 2016, | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
setting an analysis objective we in ferry of the full policy implement a | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
full fiscal autonomy -- fairly. Could I say that this is also | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
another important issue. If we moved to amendment 27 and 29, these were | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
replaced an additional ?5 billion of reserves under direct control of the | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
Scottish Parliament, by assigning 100% of Scottish revenues | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
understanding and reduced rate to the Scottish Parliament, as opposed | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
to be 50% B bill currently allows for. Of course under regulations, do | :47:00. | :47:08. | |
not allow for differential rates in the same state. The actual setting | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
of VAT would have to remain a reserve copy however this is not an | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
argument against assigning the revenues generated in Scotland to be | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
Scottish consolidated. As was said at the report states, and I quote" | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
given that the Scottish Government have no control over VAT, might sign | :47:25. | :47:32. | |
on behalf of a? Why not find all of it? Be Scottish Parliament could | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
then write the benefit. If there is a benefit from the entire rise of | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
VAT in Scotland, rather than just half of it, and we take | :47:40. | :47:41. | |
responsibility if it was a shortfall. Not for half of that | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
shortfall copy that would be a good thing." Those were not my comments, | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. But the comments of another member of the | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
opposition. They are the comments of the honourable member for Dundee | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
East, who also happens to be the SNP's economy spokesperson. Very | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
odd, given his full-blooded support for devolving 100% of VAT. The SNP | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
has not actually got the amendment would would produce this effect. | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
When the Labour Party table an amendment are doing that, do you | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
think the honourable member welcomed it? No, they did not. Is that they | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
issued a press release in which the honourable member for Dundee East | :48:25. | :48:32. | |
himself denounced a proposal as a " gimmick". I don't think it is a | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
gimmick, and I don't think the people of Scotland would either. | :48:38. | :48:46. | |
Onto New Clause four. New income tax powers in Scotland. Guard against | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
unintended and negative consequences for charities. And deputy speaker, | :48:50. | :48:57. | |
this is worth over ?1 billion a year to charities in over 100 medium | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
pounds in Gotland. Any moving operation must therefore be closely | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
guarded against -- ?100 million in Scotland. Because seed with this is | :49:07. | :49:14. | |
that get 80s UK wide, linked to tax may and predicated on a single tax | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
structure -- gift aid. I would welcome this response. Any assurance | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
which he could provide the charities on Gotland in this issue of gift | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
aid. New Clause 11. Would require the Secretary of State to labour for | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
the House... A full record including minutes of meetings and | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
correspondence and ministerial level of discussions, between the | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
Secretary of State the Treasury and the Scottish ministers, regarding | :49:43. | :49:44. | |
and unbudgeted expenditure to be voted by the parliament. Before it | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
gave authorisation of payment to grasp to be Scottish | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
consolidated... We would be happy to work with the Scottish Parliament | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
with such a report. It is similarly in the gift of the Scottish | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
government to produce their own report, and I hope they would share | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
it with us as well. That what we would have regular updates as to the | :50:10. | :50:11. | |
health of the negotiations which take place currently to a largest | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
man, behind closed doors. The purpose of this Clause is to ensure | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
that Pearcy and accountability for processes leading to the annual | :50:23. | :50:25. | |
settlement between Treasury and be Scottish ministers -- transparency. | :50:26. | :50:34. | |
Because is worth noting that the Scottish Parliament's finance | :50:35. | :50:42. | |
committee the -- Jon Young produced a report. ... Is critical and | :50:43. | :50:52. | |
described as taking waste "below the radar". It is said the | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
recommendations should be said "more formal and transparent". The | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
committee also recognise a consideration should beginning to | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
establish an independent body to advise the cancellation of a back | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
rent and to establishing an independent arbiter to dissolve the | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
disputes and issues. The party would certainly support any such news | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
developing on that. In the interest of introducing greater | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
accountability, transparency to negotiations on New Clause 11 has | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
been tabled. Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for your generosity in | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
allowing me to speak. These are important issues. I would hope the | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
House would give sympathetic consideration for comments I made | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
this evening. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think during | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
at least part of this debate some of the amendments that have been tabled | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
both by the government and opposition members have been | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
addressed. I am very pleased, unless type picked it up wrongly, in the | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
course of the debate. Is that there is no one suggesting that we would | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
wish to oppose the amendment which the government has brought forward. | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am afraid today's debate on full fiscal | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
economy Bill Matt economy has been for me and unwelcome case of deja vu | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
-- full fiscal autonomy. I'm afraid that includes my honourable friend | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
from Gainsborough. It would certainly be unwelcome to be people | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
of Scotland it is ever came to pass. Just a moment. It will come as no | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
surprise that the government is not excepting the SNP's amendment | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
relating to full fiscal autonomy. This government is clear it is not | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
in the interest of the people of stop and. We simply do not need a | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
commission either stopping because the analysis has been done. | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
Institute of fiscal studies has estimated that full fiscal autonomy | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
would mean Scotland having almost ?10 billion left to spend by the | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
last year of this parliament. That is not a good deal for Scotland, and | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
his government will not supported. I think the Secretary of State. What | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
is ironically a true sense of deja vu is the government despite... | :53:19. | :53:27. | |
Tories will deny people of Scotland denying what they want. That is the | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
real sense of deja vu. Hear, hear! There is not a shred of evidence to | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
suggest that the people of Scotland wonderful fiscal autonomy. They | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
voted in a referendum, which I know is rather an inconvenience for the | :53:45. | :53:46. | |
SNP on the road to independence, but they voted decisively to remain | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
within the UK. I need to deal with some of the specific and important | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
issues raised during the debate. Such as gift aid. I do commend the | :53:59. | :54:07. | |
honourable member because it is one that is important to be charitable | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
sector, of course he came up when I just eat recently. I would confirm | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
that UK government remains committed to working with the charity sector | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
to ensure that gift aid works effectively for charities and their | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
donors. That is something that we have already done and something that | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
will continue to do, we've consulted charity sector fully and agreed to | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
arrangements for the continued operation of gift aid under the | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
Scottish rate of income tax, which will come into effect in April | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
2016. Similarly, we are committed to consulting the charity sector in | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
Scotland and the rest of the UK, head of the arrangements for the | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
continued operation of gift aid under the devolution of income tax | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
powers as proposed by this bill. The government is fully committed to an | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
ongoing dialogue with the charity sector, before and after the | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
enactment of this bill. To ensure that gift aid continues to operate | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
effectively. It is our objective to maximise the amount of gift aid | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
claim on legible donations. I hope on the basis of those reassurances, | :55:11. | :55:12. | |
that he would with draw his amendment. | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
It is a significant concern that the charity sector of Scotland, we will | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
not be pushing a New Clause on that basis. I thank the honourable | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
gentleman for that, I also think might the honourable gentleman for | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
his contributions, although I usually fundamentally disagree with | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
them, I always enjoy him and him and him on his award as a spectator of | :55:40. | :55:46. | |
new MP of the year, both he and the honourable member from Paisley | :55:47. | :55:56. | |
touched on the convention. The procedure set out in the Scottish | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
Parliament. I'm afraid I do not agree with his proposal. I believe | :56:02. | :56:11. | |
that convention as required by the Mission agreement has been set out | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
on the face of the bill and that was what the intention of the | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
convention, this myth to mention to my commission where taking a | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
proposal forward. I do want to respond to all the minutes if I can. | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
In relation to the honourable gentleman from Nottingham's various | :56:28. | :56:34. | |
suggestions in relation to local government, on one hand I am | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
agreement on this occasion with the S and P because I believe it is for | :56:39. | :56:41. | |
the Scottish Parliament to determine the nature of local government in | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
Scotland, on the other hand I am in agreement with him on the basis that | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
as much as possible within Scotland, should be doubled locally and indeed | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
that is one of the proposals that Lord Smith made in relation to his | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
own comments on the bill. Turning to the issue of permanence, I am glad | :57:02. | :57:10. | |
that a New Clause, which I previously shared with the Scottish | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
Government and the devolved powers, committee. That they do meet the | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
aspiration. I think responding to the honourable gentleman, I think it | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
is an importing Clause in demonstrating what people in | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
Scotland have clearly demonstrated they wish to see in these bills. I | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
am pleased that the clauses in relation to elections have been | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
relatively un-contentious as of where those causes in relation to | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
super majority and I hope that amendments put down in that regard | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
will not be pushed to a vote. I'm afraid I cannot agree with the | :57:53. | :58:00. | |
Labour proposal that the amount of VAT raised in Scotland should be | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
assigned to Scotland. It was a key part of the Smith agreement that it | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
should be half of that revenue and that ensured a stable balance | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
between... Insulating the Scottish Government's budget from UK wide | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
economic shocks and I hope that amendment will be P document to a | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
vote. Coming to the issue of human rights, which was raised by the | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
honourable lady from Edinburgh. Previous countries since it is | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
partly, I found that her contributions were based on fact and | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
not Pollock like opinion, and I am surprised that I was somewhat | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
disappointed by this evening's contributions and it is an important | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
issue. The House will be aware that the government outlined our proposal | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
to reform and modernise our human rights framework by replacing the | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
Human Rights Act with the Bill of human rights. Of course I am very | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
aware of the possible devolution implications of reform. We will | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
engage with the devolved administrations as we develop these | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
proposals. We spoke about this matter in committee and the | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
government's view has not changed. The government is working on | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
proposals on the reform of the human rights framework and will bring | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
forward its proposals in due course in consultation with the devolved | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
administrations. Turning to the fiscal framework, which has also | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
been the subject of some discussion, I want to put on record | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
my view that I am absolutely confident that Sweeney negotiating | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
on behalf of Scottish Government will be able to get a good deal for | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
the Scottish Government. I have that confidence in Mr Sweeney, and I know | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
that he and the UK government are absolutely committed to achieving | :59:52. | :59:58. | |
that objective. We have had a number of important and detailed | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
discussions in relation to the first fiscal framework, we agreed that a | :00:02. | :00:08. | |
running commentary would not be provided in relation to those | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
negotiations, and until everything was agreed, nothing was agreed. I do | :00:12. | :00:18. | |
not believe there is any suggestion that an agreement cannot be reached, | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
an agreement that we will be fair for Scotland and fair for the rest | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
the United Kingdom, and I look forward to members of both this | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
house and the Scottish Parliament being able to properly scrutinize | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
that agreement when it is being made. Turning finally, yes indeed. | :00:39. | :00:45. | |
Before his sits down can he just saved very briefly with amendment | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
two to four which is being made by the S and P. It is worth pointing | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
out that instead of asking is how to oppose fiscal autonomy, to the | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
parliament then legislate in these areas, in other words the do not | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
actually wanted yet. They want to stop selling but not quite yet. I | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
think we should call that bluff on this. Mr Speaker, modern Deputy | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
Speaker, I think through the course of these debates that it is quite | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
clear that the strongest advocate of full fiscal autonomy is the member | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
from Gainsborough. He is willing to put his money where his mouth is, I | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
am not willing to put the livelihoods of people in Scotland on | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
the line just to demonstrate that some scheme would not work. I want | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
to just deal with New Clause 36 which is an important amendment, at | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
least your colleagues seem to suggest that. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :01:50. | :01:58. | |
in 2014, the Scottish people voted tour remained in the United Kingdom | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
and retain our two Parliament and to government. Fichardt is repeatedly | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
in advance of the 2014 referendum that it would be a once in a | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
generation, once in a lifetime event. The first Minister herself | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
signed the Edinburgh government, made both governments respect the | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
outcome of the independence referendum. However much the S in | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
the dislike the fact that two million and people -- people in | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
Scotland voted to keep our United Kingdom, their votes should be | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
respected. And not set aside as an unfortunate setback on the Road to | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
Independence. Most people in Scotland support our place in the | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
United Kingdom and do not want a second referendum, it is a fact that | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
the SNP cannot face it. This amendment is a distraction, a | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
distraction from the real powers which are contained in this bill. | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
This bill gives the Scottish Parliament significant hours with | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
the strength of United Kingdom, the SNP need to tell us how they intend | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
to use these powers for the benefit of the people of Scotland. And so I | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
will not be supporting amendment 36 and moving again my own amendments. | :03:11. | :03:20. | |
The question is that the government New Clause 12 B read a second time, | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
dock. I think the ayes habit, the ayes have it. The question is that | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
the government Clause 12 be added to the bill. I think the ayes have it. | :03:35. | :03:44. | |
New Clause 13 be added to the bill. The question is that the New Clause | :03:45. | :03:52. | |
13 be added to the bill. I think the ayes have it. The question is that | :03:53. | :04:03. | |
New Clause one, no, sorry. New Clause one to be moved formally. The | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
new -- the question that New Clause one B read a second time. Division. | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
Clear the lobby! Question is that New Clause one be | :04:17. | :05:32. | |
read a second time. Holly Lynch and Jeff Smith, for the ayes. | :05:33. | :12:22. | |
Order! Order! The yeses to the right, 191. The nose into the left, | :12:23. | :16:29. | |
. -- 341. The nose haven't, then those have it. Unlock. | :16:30. | :16:43. | |
The question is, New Clause 35 be added to the bill. As many of the | :16:44. | :16:54. | |
opinion essay I. On the contrary, no. Division, clear the lobby! | :16:55. | :19:09. | |
The question is that New Clause 35 be added to the bill. | :19:10. | :25:00. | |
Order! Order! The ayes to the right with 245, the noes to the left with | :25:01. | :28:15. | |
287. The ayes to the right, 240 ride -- 245. The nose to the right, 247. | :28:16. | :28:29. | |
Via noes have it. The question isn't that Clause 26 be formally moved. -- | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
36. Order! Order! The order -- the | :28:33. | :30:19. | |
question isn't that New Clause 36 be added to the bill. | :30:20. | :36:58. | |
In order! Order. The ayes to the right, 56. The noes to the left, | :36:59. | :39:10. | |
265. The ice to the right, 56, the noes to the last 256. The noes have | :39:11. | :39:41. | |
it. We have now, to 2469 amending be made to. | :39:42. | :39:50. | |
Last night, a picture of a swastika was projected onto the House of | :39:51. | :40:01. | |
Commons with a message saying" not welcome." The prime minister of | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
India is visiting later this week. Can you confirm that this will be | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
investigated, and today it has nothing to do with anything with the | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
Government or the authorities, and that the perpetrators will be caught | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
and punished? Is not acceptable to project onto the house, but to | :40:23. | :40:30. | |
project a swastika, and the visit of a state leader is totally | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
unacceptable. The point has been made and will be dealt with. I'm | :40:35. | :40:41. | |
convinced that the police will be looking into as a matter of | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
urgency. Will you explain the procedure to the house, because I | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
have not been a very long here. I don't need to explain or to waste | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
anymore time, because we need to move on to the bill. This is a | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
genuine point of order. Am I right in thinking that it would be in | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
order for an amendment to be moved. I'm surprised that the S has not | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
moved amendment two to four for a cut autonomy. I wonder if there is a | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
reason that would have prevented them. It is not for the church to | :41:22. | :41:29. | |
decide, but to the SNP a. As I have said, it is not a point of order, | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
and you knew the answer before you ask. C we can make a little | :41:34. | :41:42. | |
progress. We now come to a welfare benefit of legislative components | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
with a compliance. We come to government Clause to 14 with a New | :41:46. | :41:54. | |
Clause 34, New Clause 15, deposit 17, and amendments of numerous | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
clauses to go through it for the government. Rather than name them | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
all, I would be happy for the secretary of states to it now move | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
them. Thank you Mr Deputy. Can I begin this section with the specific | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
issue of welfare funds, on which I am accepting an amendment that the | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
SNP tabled. It was tabled a committee. The Smith commission | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
stated that the devolution of welfare food should be subject to | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
further discussions between the UK and Scottish governments. This has | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
taken place, and I'm pleased that the New Clause caused 14 and | :42:34. | :42:41. | |
consequential eminent 75, 80, and 82 to 83, devolve powers to the | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
Scottish Parliament concerning welfare food. They'll be able to | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
abolish existing schemes which included the milk scheme and the | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
health star scheme, work make new schemes. I will for more generally, | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
the government is proposing changes to the welfare causes, responding to | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
a number of comments made by members of his house at committee stage as | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
well as the Scottish Parliament and other state quarters. As a result, | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
it will be beyond doubt that this calendar bill fully delivers on the | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
smash death -- Smith committee. The problem will have significant duties | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
as to the areas of welfare. From Gordon Brown and the Scottish | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
media, and from all objective observers. The Scottish government | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
in route responsibly to care benefits, worth to 7p in Scotland in | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
the last year. It will be able to deliver new variant -- benefits in | :43:40. | :43:48. | |
all devolved areas. The Scottish can, if they wish, legislate for | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
paint meant to a person who is under 16, is in full-time education, or is | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
gainfully employed. The Scottish Government will be able to pay | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
anyone on a reserve benefit a top up payment. This includes being able to | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
top of benefits such as tax credits, child benefit, and | :44:07. | :44:14. | |
universal credit. For the sake of clarity very, and the Secretary of | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
State say that the Scotland bill as drafted this evening would allow the | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
Scottish Bowman to topple tax credits? As I have said before, and | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
unlikely to set again, a Scotland bill as it progresses through this | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
house this evening, would allow the Scottish Parliament to top up tax | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
credits, and indeed a child benefit, and elements of credit as well. It | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
will be able to pay shorter-term payments to help anyone, regards of | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
whether they are not entitled to reserve benefit, who has immediate | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
need for them, and whose well-being is at risk. I have also proposing | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
important changes to the bill so that Scottish Bowman can create | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
their own new benefits in any area of responsibly, a by Clause 34, and | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
amendments 191 to 193. The Scottish Government will be able to do this | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
without any need to consult the UK government. This power a | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
significant, the skies from it will no longer be able to see that they | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
are constrained by West Minister. They will be able to choose what | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
additional benefits to afford people in Scotland. I must make a few | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
important points to a few important points the clear. Any new benefits | :45:31. | :45:38. | |
in the Scottish Government that they want to deliver it will be parallel | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
to the benefits that are delivered by the UK government. The new power | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
does not affect Westminster power to and deliver support. It is not allow | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
the Scottish Parliament to reserve was Mr Reiser legislation. They will | :45:54. | :46:01. | |
need to deliver benefits from Scottish fund. The house will be | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
aware that we have also delivered on other areas of Smith in. He Scottish | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
misters will be able to make regulations on certain omens of | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
universal credit, such as frequency of payments and to whom they are | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
paid. I'm obliged to him for giving way. In terms of clarity, for those | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
who lose their tax credits completely, as a result of this Tory | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
government cutting agenda, the provision is there for them in this | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
Scottish I don't know if she is familiar with the provisions in the | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
bill, but the Scottish Parliament will have complete control over | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
income tax in Scotland. If they are concerned that people are not | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
receiving sufficient income, it will be able to adjust those tax -- those | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
tax credits. The honourable Lady knows that tax credits are not been | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
divulged, and she also knows that they can be topped up. Hurt she and | :47:00. | :47:06. | |
her party have been unwilling to state whether or not they're willing | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
to top of those benefits. They have whole range of benefits, or rather | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
Mr Speaker, then put any thought into thinking of how to evolve a | :47:17. | :47:23. | |
welfare system in Scotland, it isn't the usual SNP position of the focus, | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
focus, focus on what we can do rather than telling anyone in | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
Scotland what we can do. Of course, there was much debate that as I've | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
dealt with a shoe. There was much debate in committee on the universal | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
credit hours, and many inaccurate accusations that the UK government | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
would have a power to veto decisions of the Scottish government. To put | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
this down a reasonable doubt, I have brought forward amendments to Clause | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
is 24 and 25, that makes clear that there is no UK veto over decisions | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
that the Scottish Government makes in this space. Amendment 77 and 78 | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
strength in the drafting of these divisions. The Secretary of State | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
will remain legally responsible for the delivery of universal credit, | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
but both governments will need to collaborate to consider any such | :48:15. | :48:16. | |
changes to these elements of universal credit. This is at the | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
heart of Clause 24 and 25, and I know that our officials have already | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
had their constructive discussions with the Scottish government on this | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
subject. To ensure that the record is clustered -- crystal clear, there | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
are no UK government vetoes on this welfare and employment causes. I | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
would like to emphasise that we have listened to the Scottish government | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
and the debate in his house. For example, amendment 72 ammo which | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
enables China's government to write nonfinancial assistance for | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
maternity, funeral, and heating expenses reflects an amendment that | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
the amend -- S tabled in committee. After consideration the | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
government is happy to make this change. Amendment 70 three, 76, and | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
hundred 92 and number 91 religious provision. All in all, this | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
settlement fully reflects an agreement reached by the Smith | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
commission. Gestures that the areas should remain in reserve, such as | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
pension, universal credit, sanctions and conditionality, and employment | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
support delivered by Java centre plus, remain to be building of the | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
UK government. More importantly, it gives the Scottish prominent full | :49:34. | :49:35. | |
responsibility for any errors of welfare. The Scottish Parliament | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
will have the autonomy to legislate for large areas of welfare, and I | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
look forward to the debate began on how intends it to the debate began | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
on how intensity you Mr Speaker, the Smith commission agreement also | :49:49. | :49:50. | |
recommended the devolution of abortion legislation am a given that | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
parties to the agreement were strongly of the view that anomalous | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
reservation needed to be corrected. As I announced last month, UK and | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
Scottish ministers and officials have held discussions on the matter, | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
and reflect it very carefully about practicalities of devolution in this | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
area. I'm grateful for the Secretary of State, he has accepted a lot of | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
Labour amendments from committee stage, but he said quite clearly in | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
this house back in July that he would not divulge abortion without a | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
proper process and full consultation discussion with Scottish women's | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
groups. Can ask what has changed his mind? That is in inaccurate | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
collection of what I said. I made it clear that the Smith commission had | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
recommended the devolution of abortion, that we were engaged in a | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
discussion with the Scottish Government, and of course we have | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
engaged with women's groups in the Scotland, Bruce that I have spoken | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
to our clear that abortion can be devolved. Let me finish. There are | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
clear that the Scottish Provident has the capacity to deal with the | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
issue of abortion, but they do want the devolution to be handled | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
sensitively. I think that we are in the process of doing that. The first | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
Minister of Scotland has made it clear that she has no plans to | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
change the existing arrangements in relation to it abortion, and the | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
honourable gentleman will know that... I will come to my honourable | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
Lady. Gettable gentleman will know that by devoting abortion to the | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
Scottish from it, it will not lead to a change in the law in Scotland. | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
I will only happen, they'll only happen if the Scottish Parliament | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
makes the decision. The Minister will know they will not be the gift | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
of anyone Minister to decide, and he is proposing a very substantial | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
framework change to decide, and he is proposing a very substantial | :51:58. | :51:59. | |
framework change through a framework for abortion legislation. He has | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
done the work with substantial consultation, and you're only going | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
to have a few minutes to discuss this, something so substantial, the | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
change to the 1967 act in this act, that he really think that a few | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
discussion here and the limited conversations that he has had | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
between officials in the Scottish office and the Scotch egg government | :52:21. | :52:31. | |
will be to do this quiz the desk? I believe the Scottish government has | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
the capacity to deal with this issue. It is in danger of verging on | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
the patronizing... To suggest that the Scottish Parliament is not | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
capable with dealing with this is -- issue, even though it is an issue of | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
great importance, even though it is an issue of conscious. I am a | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
satisfied that the Scottish Parliament has the capacity to deal | :52:57. | :53:05. | |
with this issue. Would the Minister agree with me that it is | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
extraordinary, despite all three main parties being led by women in | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
Scotland, and after the Scottish government brought in later session | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
for a quality some of the most oppressive legislation on the issue | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
any work, that the Labour Party apparently it still feels that | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
Scotland's people still need to need a male-dominated Westminster to | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
protect women's rights. I would not agree with the analysis, but I do | :53:33. | :53:41. | |
strongly believe that there is no constitutional reason not to divulge | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
abortion. The Scottish programme has responsibility for most aspects of | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
the NHS and the criminal justice system. | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
What he is doing is setting up two different systems for Scotland and | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
then for England and Wales. That when we know in other parts of the | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
world that has led to people travelling for abortions, | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
overwhelming having to travel at a vulnerable time. That principle, | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
deciding whether or not it is right for people to have to travel is an | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
unfortunate one. I hope that many of my colleagues will agree with us | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
about the importance of the 1967 act, I know there is strong | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
agreement from the first Minister however, whether we think it is | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
right to increase the likelihood of women having to travel at a | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
vulnerable time, does he think he is right to have that without proper | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
consultation for women across not just Scotland but England as well? | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
The right honourable Lady has cast my eye, ... When I you Mr Deputy | :54:42. | :54:50. | |
Speaker, I do not think there is any evidence as to suggest that that | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
will be the case. I think there is very considerable evidence of the | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
last 16 years that the Scottish Parliament has been able to deal | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
with sensitive matters in an appropriate way. Just to clarify. | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
This was not originally in the devolution process as my | :55:11. | :55:12. | |
understanding of her, but it was brought to attention, with the | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
number of members from this house was believed to be pro-life. Could | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
the Minister please alleviate my fears on that? I can confirm that | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
that is absolutely not the case. If she reads the Smith commission | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
report, the commission makes it clear that they believe that | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
devolution should take place in place of abortion law, devolution | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
from the previous act was an anomalous reservation based on the | :55:42. | :55:49. | |
health and criminal justice devolution that took place. They | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
recognise and I recognise that this is a matter that requires to be | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
dealt with sensitively. Requires recent dealt with sensitively, | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
that's why there have been discussions with the Scottish | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
Government, that is why the first Minister of Scotland has made his | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
position on the issue very clear, that is why the health minister will | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
be talking shortly with women's groups and parties in Scotland as | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
the devolution of abortion goes forward. I'm going to take and then | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
I will come back. As was stated at the last meeting, under no certain | :56:21. | :56:28. | |
terms there is no plan to reduce legislation. Therefore on that | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
basis, with the number of, Secretary of State agree with me that the fact | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
that members on these benches undermine their own colleagues in | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
the Scottish Parliament by saying we cannot legislate for new matters? I | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
have already stated that I think the honourable lady, I am absolutely | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
satisfied that the sky from and has capacity to deal with this issue. | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
And on tonight and other occasions we have had significant differences | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
between ourselves as to what should and shouldn't be devolved to the | :57:02. | :57:03. | |
Scottish Parliament, those have never been the basis that I believe | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
the Scottish phone that was not capable with dealing any particular | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
sensitive or difficult issue, it was because I felt the balance of | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
responsibilities in the devolution settlement was better served in a | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
different way. I genuinely believe the balance of the devolution | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
settlement is best served by abortion being evolved which is | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
consistent with the health and criminal justice devolution as part | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
of the wider settlement. The Smith commission did not say that abortion | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
should be to vault now, but it did say that a procedure should be put | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
into place in order to be considered. Perhaps the secretary is | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
late could explain the procedure that has been put in place and the | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
consultation that has taken or word in this decision tonight was white | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
if the honourable lady looks at the Smith commission report it is not | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
that the devolution was in question or to be consulted on, what is to be | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
consulted on is a process in terms of that devolution going forward. | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
And it will be, the UK government is committed to that approach, I am | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
assured women's groups in Scotland that I have committed and I know the | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
Scottish Government is committed to that approach as well. The first | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
Minister has made her position clear, this is in relation to the | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
constitutional balance between the United Kingdom and Scotland and | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
where that decision is more appropriately taken. The Smith | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
commission came to the clear conclusion that the balance | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
appropriately lay with the Scottish Parliament. The measure is being | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
taken forward, I think, and a measured way. It is the year almost | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
since the Smith commission reported, there will be no change to | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
the legal position in Scotland in relation to abortion, simply by this | :58:57. | :59:06. | |
act of devolution. I would like to agree with the Secretary of State | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
that it is right that we give the Scottish Parliament and trust the | :59:11. | :59:13. | |
Scottish Parliament with this issue. They have shown themselves to be | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
progressive on issues such as same-sex marriage. They do have very | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
important legislative powers over the judicial system. So I would urge | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
the secretary of state to carry on with this measure and ensure that | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
the Scottish Parliament is given the needs. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. | :59:31. | :59:38. | |
I think I have made clear the final point that I wanted to which was | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
simply by devolution, there will be no change to the position under the | :59:44. | :59:51. | |
1967 act. I am sure hear views from others and we will of course listen | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
to them. I will take your point. With the Secretary of State agree | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
that a woman's Rick to choose should be universal? I do not think this is | :00:02. | :00:11. | |
the nature of this debate. This debate about whether the Scottish | :00:12. | :00:13. | |
Parliament should have the responsibility for this issue. I | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
believe they have the capacity to make those decisions in an informed | :00:17. | :00:24. | |
way, and I do think it is offensive, becoming offensive, to | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
suggest otherwise. All of the other issues that we raise and debate in | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
this chamber about the responsibilities between Scotland | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
and the rest of the United Kingdom, we do not do so on the capacity of | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
the Scottish Parliament that it might fall under undue influence and | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
make their own decision. I think I have made the position very clear. | :00:48. | :00:56. | |
The one thing I will restate, that is that we will continue to work | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
closely with women's groups and other interested parties to ensure | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
that the devolution of abortion is as smooth as possible. As I | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
repeatedly said, there will be no change simply by devolution of the | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
Scottish Government and the first Minister has stated that they they | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
do not intend to change the existing provisions. I am going to move on I | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
am afraid to discuss the Crown estate which is also an important | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
issue which has been a very much debated in the context of a | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
devolution. Clause 31 allows for the Scottish asset to the Crown estate | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
to be managed by the Scottish Government and they should receive | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
the revenue from the management of those assets. Going forward, the | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
Clause... Sorry. Thank you for giving way, Clause 31 actually says | :01:53. | :02:01. | |
the Treasury may make an endorsement to the vault that. It means maybe | :02:02. | :02:13. | |
iMac may no. -- maybe no. I do not accept that analysis. The State | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
transfers beam and the memorandum between both governments has been | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
published, it is in the House library. I see that copies are | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
available at the office, I see the Scottish Government have already | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
come back with their comments in relation to those proposals. So I | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
think very clearly going forward because meet the Scottish problem I | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
have the management of the Scottish asked Mac -- assets. I very much | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
hope in accordance with the provisions that Lord Smith himself | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
set out in the agreement, that they will do so. It also does provide the | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
protections and visits by the Smith commission to ensure the transfer is | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
not detrimental to defence and other UK wide critical national | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
infrastructure. Amendment 84 to 95 o'clock 31 strengthened the delivery | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
of the Smith commission and the drafting of the provisions. To make | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
clear the policy intent of the Clause, including the protection to | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
be included in the transfer scheme relating to electricity charges and | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
the obligation to maintain a stake in land. Proposals having to be | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
reinvested into the estate. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am also proposing | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
a number of equal opportunities amendments to the bill, having | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
engaged with stakeholders and Scottish Government on the equal | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
opportunities provision and reflected on the committee debates, | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
we have responded our representations made on how the | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
Clause might be made clearer. Clause 16 and the consequential amendments | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
102 to 104 and 97 confers the Scottish ministers make amends by | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
order and implement part one of the quality at 2010 in Scotland. This | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
provides the devolution of social economic rights to the Scottish | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
Parliament. Amendments 96 and 98 to 101 to Clause 32 similarly represent | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
a revised and improved drafting approach. The strength and the... | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
Exercising devolved functions in Scotland. This makes clear that | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
Scottish Parliament could legislate to introduce protections | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
requirements and positive measures including gender quotas forward | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
boards across the public sector. The revised version of Clause 33 | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
achieved by amendment 105 is made the purpose effect of operation of | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
the tribunals clearer. The amendment to move the Mac removes ambiguity | :04:49. | :04:56. | |
through the drafting... Management operation of tribunals will be | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Mr Deputy Speaker, New Clause 17, | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
consequential amendments 134 and 135 will allow the UK government to | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
change primary legislation so that finds forfeitures and penalties | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
imposed by the courts and tribunals in Scotland are required to be paid | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
to the Scottish consolidated fund, and therefore retained by the | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
Scottish Government. This delivers the Smith commission agreement. The | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
bill also the... Relating to national speed limits and traffic | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
signs in Scotland, to minor technical amendments, 106 and 1036 | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
are required to correct the drafting in Clause 37, scheduled to, and do | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
not have an effect on the powers involved in this area. Memo 170 | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
Clause 37 ensures the Scottish Government is able to use the | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
traffic signs regulations in general, once they come into effect. | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
The Smith commission also agreed the licensing of onshore oil and gas | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
prices should beat the ball to the Scottish Parliament. Amendments 111 | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
to 113 and 108 improve the intended function of the oil and clap, gas | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
clauses and bring about a transfer of legislative confidence. Amendment | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
109 ensures the competence of the Scottish Parliament over given | :06:20. | :06:21. | |
licenses in the Scottish onshore area is not affected by geological | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
processes on the coastline. Amendment 110 clarifies the extent | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
of petroleum access, powers being devolved in relation to land access. | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Robert ease of searching and budget to my boarding a troll under a | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
license. Amendment 114 allows existing cross-border licenses to be | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
split so the Scottish ministers are granted administration of all | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
licensed acreage in the Scottish onshore area. Kloss and 43 devolved | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
power to the Scottish Parliament over the division of consumer | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
advocacy and advice in Scotland. Amendments 115 to 128 correct minor | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
and technical areas -- errors in the Clause provided the drafting of the | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
Clause related to gas and electricity companies and the postal | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
sector to fund consumer advocacy. This will continue to be raised | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
across the UK and funds will be continued to be portions across | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
Scotland. Amendments 137 to 142 proposed to Clause 50 which enable | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
Scottish ministers to divine -- reducing fuel poverty in Scotland by | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
imposing obligations on energy providers. These amendments transfer | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
an additional power to Scottish ministers so that they can set out | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
in regulations the rules for determining the value of any benefit | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
provided under Scottish fuel poverty scheme and said different benefits | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
amounts for different categories of eligible customers. Amendments also | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
remove duplicate requirements and Scottish ministers and clarify the | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
Secretary of State continues to exercise the powers which are not | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
transferred to the Scottish ministers. Amendments 143214 -- 154 | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
to Clause 51 take into account the debate at the committee stage to | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
ensure that costs are clear and applicable -- equitable to design | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
the Scottish energy company obligation in a way that she keep | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
costs of the obligation in Scotland within this year of any carbon | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
emission reduction a whole heating cost reduction target portions of | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
Scotland. Amendments one to nine and the Mets won 33 are technical | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
amendments which are needed to ensure that the member appointed to | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
the Ofcom board by Scottish ministers has the same functions and | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
responsibilities as other board members. In conclusion Mr Deputy | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
Speaker, I am confident that the minutes I'm proposing to the | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
Scotland bill received by objective observers as positive drafting | :08:57. | :08:58. | |
changes which will strengthen the provisions and make clear that they | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
will fully deliver the Smith commission agreement in spirit and I | :09:02. | :09:10. | |
beg to move my amendments. New Clause 14. The question is that New | :09:11. | :09:20. | |
Clause 14 B read a second time. Mr Deputy Speaker, I rise to speak to | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
the minutes and my name and the members of my friends, I am sorry we | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
do not have more time to debate these minutes more fully deceiving. | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
Like the of state, I to have a sense of each other this evening because | :09:35. | :09:36. | |
many of the amendment tabled today are similar to minutes we debated at | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
committee stage. So far, the government has accepted one | :09:43. | :09:44. | |
opposition amendments to any part in Scotland bill, but alas we have seen | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
government amendments tabled in the last few days that takes us a wee | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
bit closer to what we originally pledged. I welcome the governments | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
tacit amendments that the bill failed to meet the letter or spirit | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
of the Smith recognition. I welcome many of those bladed amendments, | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
including the amends in this group and the one on abortion which was | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
debated earlier. They do address some of the bill's shortcomings. | :10:10. | :10:17. | |
However the amendments in this group and there are more than quite a few | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
of them all seek to equip the Scottish Parliament with the power | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
needs to build a fairer society, strengthen employee prospects, | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
improve governments, and create a better number for people. Mr Deputy | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
Speaker, no issue and calculates this better than the issue of tax | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
credits. That is why I am moving New Clause 18 today, which would amend | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
schedule five of the Scotland Act to devolved Scottish Parliament to make | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
provision for the tax credit and working tax credit. Perhaps a bit | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
later on but I want to signal and taste the will of the House on this | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
club later. These tax credits more than it other time highlights the | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
contrast between the UK government willing to put low income families | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
on the front line and the ideological war of austerity. The | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
Scottish government tackling... Determined to give children a decent | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
start in life. I will give way. I just wonder, if they had control of | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
tax credits, with a increased income tax to pay for them? I am glad that | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
the honourable gentleman has asked me that so early on because had it | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
been listening to events in the Scottish Parliament last week he | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
would know that it has been made very clear that the impact... To | :11:38. | :11:48. | |
mitigate the impact of the tax credit changes, however, like the | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
Prime Minister, she is also in the dark about exactly what those | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
proposals are going to be because George does seem to be writing on | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
the back of an envelope. We are clear that that is not going to be | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
possible to quantify for too half weeks. I would want to give way at | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
the moment I'm going to make progress but I will come back and | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
take more interventions on topic. Let me say that the changes | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
announced by the Chancellor had the power to cut the incomes of four and | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
a half million families across the UK. The SNP has been resolute and | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
consistent in its opposition to these cuts. I wish the same could be | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
said across the South. I will give way on that point. Thank you for | :12:31. | :12:40. | |
poor -- her offer there. The power to restore the money loss of tax | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
credits credits and with the member commit the Scottish Government to | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
restoring and full of the money lost by tax credits? She really needs to | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
stop everything she and listen to the debate. It is simply wrong. It | :12:55. | :13:04. | |
is simply wrong... Bringing up their children on various projects to | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
plate the lion share of the prize for the economic failures of | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
successive UK governments. Under the UK government, tax credits as they | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
stand, I won't give way, I will in a moment or two. Under UK | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
government's tax credit proposals, 250,000 working households in | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
Scotland will lose on average ?1500 each year from April, the longer | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
term, once the tax credit changes are fully implemented, including | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
restrictions on the two child policy. Many of those families are | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
going to lose up to ?3000 a year each. That is not pocket money, that | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
it represents an enormous income... I will give way to the shadow | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
Secretary of State. Idea I think she quite answered the question from my | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
honourable friend. Issue committing here tonight to the over losses and | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
tax credit cut from this government. Because her party voted | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
against it last week? Mr Deputy Speaker, I really wish that the | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
shadow Secretary of State had voted against the tax credits on the 23rd | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
of July. Before they came before this house because that would have | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
shot them dead. That is why we are back where we are. To get this point | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
across, it has been made crystal clear that she intends to bring cost | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
plans once a statement has been made. The low-paid working families, | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
tax credits are the crucial source of income and put shoes on the feet | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
of children, keeps homes warm during the winter. But this Parliament tax | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
credit cuts would take to 2p out of the pockets of the poorest families. | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
That is going to undermine economic... Scary measures RDN acted | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
are said to put 100,000 more children in poverty in 2020. Under | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
these tax credit measures, these youngsters aren't set out further. | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
No wonder the Tories have abandoned any attempt to... There's a broad | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
consensus in Scotland that cutting tax credits is the wrong thing to do | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
and even the leader of the tort party has said, it is wrong for | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
low-paid workers to lose out. Even they recognise that the proposals | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
would disenfranchise work, punish those in low-paid jobs. The House of | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
Lords in the worst of these proposals could force the government | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
act to the drawing board for the tax credit plan. For millions of | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
families across UK who face uncertainty, we are going to have to | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
wait until the statement to learn what changes the government, I will | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
not give way, they intend to bring forward... Who seem rather thin on | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
the ground tonight. We at the SNP have been very consistent in our | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
opposition to the tax credit changes and we have made the case that all | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
the changes... We all continue to fight tax credit cuts to the and | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
nail in this house, to force this government and I hope we can rely on | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
the opposition parties to stand firm as well. Labour abstained on the | :16:18. | :16:25. | |
23rd of July. What we have heard from government that MM and 34 | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
tabled last Wednesday does represent some progress, I am grateful for | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
that because of that because the technology is there was... It | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
manages to deal with it to some extent. That proposal in Clause 34 | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
would partially mitigate the impact of the tax credit cuts will only | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
Clause 18 is much stronger than that. Would fully evolved control | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
over tax credits to the Scottish Parliament, including eligibility, | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
thresholds and tapers. With government amendment 34, the | :16:59. | :17:00. | |
Scotland bill will give the Scottish Parliament the power to top up | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
benefits and that is fine as far as it goes, but it would be no help to | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
those people who have lost their tax credits entirely as a record, it... | :17:08. | :17:17. | |
It's are you aware that the Secretary of State for Work and | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
Pensions referred the Mac refuses to... If the government did top of | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
benefits, it would not guarantee that they would not take that money | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
away as if it was extra? He makes an absolutely critical point because we | :17:34. | :17:35. | |
have not had clarity from the government. That they will not test | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
these top ups. I'm looking forward to for clarification from the | :17:43. | :17:44. | |
Secretary of State and confirming that that is the case. There are | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
around 80,000 families in Scotland who are going to lose entitlement | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
altogether under these existing proposals, that is roughly the same | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
number as when affected by the bedroom tax in Scotland. Also the | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
Scottish Parliament may have the power to create a new benefit, that | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
seems inordinately complex way to go about things. It is theoretically | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
possible but like the tax mitigation, that money would have to | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
be fed from other devolved budgets, it would be an admission from the | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
government that their proposals have not worked. As I said already, | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
Nicola Sturgeon has made absolutely clear ring for the proposals, but I | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
think Labour needs to be clear tonight as well. Whether they will | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
back our New Clause 18 or once again with a cause... Sit on their hands | :18:32. | :18:39. | |
in the face of crushing... I am very conscious of time. Mr Speaker, the | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
bottom line is that we would rather not be at the mercy of this UK | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
government. I rather we have powers in Scotland not just to mitigate the | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
worst side effects of joining forces, but the powers did develop | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
better alternatives. With the very limited powers already included in | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
the Scotland bill, the Scottish Government has already made a range | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
of commitments on how they're going to use those powers and develop ways | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
forward. Discuss government has already committed that allowance | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
will match jobseeker's allowance. Demolishing the bedroom tax, | :19:18. | :19:19. | |
replacing the work programme which is not working, and committing to | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
reflecting that... Offering people more choice on how they manage their | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
money. This Scottish Government has been consulting with new minute to | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
my numerous stakeholders so far on how those new powers can best be | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
used to serve people. Mr Deputy Speaker, New Clause 19 devolved | :19:41. | :19:42. | |
control over employment rights and industrial relations including... | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
This is another place where the Scotland bill falls short of the | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
recognition. Once again, this Clause is extremely topical given that | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
tomorrow concludes that tomorrow concludes the debate on the | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
government changing the bill. Last week I met with constituents who | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
left me with no doubt about the harm this bill has the potential to | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
cause. Special ink Scotland and throughout the UK. Contrast and | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
Clause 19 which allows the government to take a different | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
approach to maintain the benefits of constructive industrial relations. I | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
would be delighted to give way. I am very grateful. Can my honourable | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
friend confirm that the evolving of industrial relations is supported by | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
Scotland's worker Parliament. The General Counsel and one of the | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
reasons for that is so that we can do more work with the Scottish | :20:35. | :20:44. | |
convention. 46,540 cases of unfair treatment in the workplace. I think | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
he makes a very pertinent point he cause in calling for the transfer of | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
powers for employment, and the minimum wage, and the S TC has | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
experienced support for the devolution of these powers but also | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
known to the appetite of Scotland, reducing the quality and desire to | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
forge a more positive relationship with trade unions. I would not give | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
way at the moment because I'm conscious of time and I have a lot | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
of amendment to get through. It is inevitable that governments will | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
face tough negotiations with employee representatives from time | :21:20. | :21:21. | |
to time and will sometimes be disagreements but we should not lose | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
sight for one moment from the enormously beneficial role that | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
displays in the past and present day to encourage for work and wages, | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
improved working environment I will give way. What happened to the great | :21:34. | :21:45. | |
trade unions. Think the honourable gentleman should be addressing that | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
to the Scottish Union Congress because they are the ones calling | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
for the devolution of... The Scottish government sees tree | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
deviance as key social workers and part of society and is not OK for | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
the UK government to restrict the ability of trade unions to represent | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
the members effectively. I will be opposing that tomorrow but we need | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
those powers to ball then there's an option needed to do that tonight. Mr | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
Deputy Speaker there are a number of clauses and amendments tabled that | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
relate to employment and Social Security. Not all of which have | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
adequate time to debate fully tonight, but New Clause 22 would | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
evolve support the Scottish Parliament and we can't let existing | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
provisions in the bill. Significant restrictions supporting the bill, | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
particularly regarding programmes at least 12 months. ... Scottish | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
Government will be able to take a stronger and earlier action to be | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
people and to work. New Clause 23 devolves all be working benefits to | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
place by universal credit and any benefit to replace universal credit | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
overwhelmingly civics Scotland powers should be in the hands of the | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
Scottish Parliament to allow us to tailor policies in line with our own | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
priorities and values. And enable us to protect the children of lower | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
income families. Full devolution of universal credit which allows us to | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
establish a better security system for Scotland. Mr W Seeger, New | :23:12. | :23:20. | |
Clause 24 runs the powers... The conditionality does... It's | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
manifested failure to protect them as mobile people in our communities | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
have all witnessed the acceptable so exposure to food banks and the last | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
couple of years which is the most obvious symptom. The government | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
knows perfectly well that the system is not working which is why the next | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
changes including the new pilot scheme in recent days, but they are | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
taking it to the edges of an punitive and inhumane sanctions | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
regime which is driving sick and vulnerable people to destitution and | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
despair. The Scotland bill is our opportunity to take these powers in | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
the Scotland fans and other forces should join us to deliver a more | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
effective approach. Giving powers over sanctions and conditionality to | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
the Tories is not simply good enough. Mr W Cedar, New Clause 27 | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
which I also wish to move would amend schedule five of the Scotland | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
Act and give Scottish Parliament confidence regal opportunities. | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
Taken with the SNP's other amendments, namely amendments | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
16916... Is this New Clause would give the Scottish cup Parliament | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
powers to improve... I'll be delighted to give weight to my | :24:35. | :24:35. | |
friend. Does my friend agreed with the | :24:36. | :24:47. | |
commission the outlines that devolving power over Scottish poem | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
that will allow the Parliament to legislate and give the abilities to | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
people that do have never had before? The lady makes a point well, | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
and I know as well that in previous debates we have talked about Human | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
Rights Act and the role that that that place in securing equality. On | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
the question of the moment implement locking the honourable Lady explain | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
how this is going to work? How will a trade union recognition work in | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
practice, where there are crashed that cross quarter bargaining | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
units, or redundancies spanning both jurisdictions. How that would work? | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
She needs it to her member that a great deal of the public sector is | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
already devolved, and these issues have already been worked out. We | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
already have devolution of a whole range of public services where some | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
of those are negotiated at a national level, and some are | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
negotiated at eight UK level. That seems a redundant point. Cottage | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
Parliament has a good track record of progressive equality measures, | :25:50. | :25:58. | |
and this would enable... This would improve protections for audience | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
determination and a more balanced presentation of women in public | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
life. It is worth pointing out that full devolution of power and | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
opportunities is supported by leading in gender Scotland, the | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
quality, and equality and rights. Executive director said "devilish | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
and bring power closer to people, and this is important for | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
marginalised and discriminating groups stopped --. " For the | :26:25. | :26:34. | |
devolution of the equality legislation would better allow the | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
Scottish Parliament to push for better outcomes. This could lead to | :26:38. | :26:45. | |
improvements in the life chances and ask Scottish quality of life. | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
Amendment 168 relate to the Crown estate. Amendment 168 would leave | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
out the government's existing Clause 31 and two Clause 20 and replace | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
it. As it stands Clause 31 is not true to the peer of the commission | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
which recommended before the illusion of responsibly for the | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
responsibility of the devolution of power in Scotland. The revenue | :27:09. | :27:16. | |
generated from these assets... Closer to one is obligated and | :27:17. | :27:24. | |
excused Crown estate assets. My friend in Edinburgh East has raised | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
concerns already. I'm grateful for giving way. One of the largest | :27:32. | :27:41. | |
investments is in the Edinburgh East. I been pressing the Secretary | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
of State as to why this is excluded in the transfer. Which he agreed | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
that his excavation so far is not convincing, in that he says that it | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
is part of a commercial arrangement? In fact we are only talking about | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
transfer of the government's responsibilities, and the | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
government's components within the relationship. I agree, he makes his | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
point well. As someone who represents coastal communities who | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
have been held back for decades because of the decades -- I for one | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
cannot wait to see the public assets be brought under a Democratic icon | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
ability. Working for the good of those communities, cost what it | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
would reduce complexities by rid removing that is that it would | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
provide Scottish Parliament with full legislative power. It would | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
also transfer any fortunes of the Crown estate commissioner in | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
relation to rights to the continental shelf beyond the 200th | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
article mile limit adjacent to Scotland. Up until now the | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
Parliament has not made a good job scrutinising the activities of the | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
Crown estate. We have an opportunity to put that right by opening the | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
Crown estate to better public accountability and to put its asset | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
at the centre of arts committee. There are numbers of amendments that | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
I want to touch on in concluding the. All of these it would | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
strengthen the bill. Cost 29 would give the Scottish permit control of | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
the relation of political broadcasts for local elections, Scottish | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
elections, and elections held in Scotland. As per the Smith | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
commission recommendation in progress 23. That seems to be left | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
out of the legislation today. New Clause 30 divulge broadcasting by | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
amending schedule five of the Scotland Act. This Clause would not | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
impact in the delivery of the proposals in the skit sketch Smith | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
commission in BBC and .com, both of which have been delivered in a | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
memorandum of understanding. It would provide a wider role in | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
broadcasting policy for the Scottish Parliament in the future. Amendment | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
182 and 23 relates to giving machine and life -- licensing betting | :29:48. | :29:57. | |
premises. It would give more data that New Clause 31 would give the | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
Scottish Parliament general legislative competence over | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
agriculture and fisheries. This is a firm that cannot come soon enough. | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
It and acceptable situations abroad by Scottish fishermen to who have | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
led the levees is to promote promote Norwegian fish. Instead of using | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
Scottish seafood in markets. The UK Sea Fish industry organises the fish | :30:22. | :30:29. | |
and chip awards it that is organised by the Norwegian councils. Finalists | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
of the 2016 awards are being taken to Norway to learn about the supply | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
of fish from the richer the UK. I have no problem with their | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
competition, but I have massive problem with fishermen in my | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
constituency being forced to have levees that are being used by public | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
funded bodies to fund businesses. In eastern and. These associations | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
support the evolution of this, which would be used better to promote talk | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
top-quality local parties. Clause 32 would give Scottish ministers power | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
to decide who would run rail services. Paragraph 65. Pulau | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
public-sector operators to bid for real franchises, amendment 24 and 18 | :31:13. | :31:21. | |
would provide programmes in Scotland... Amendment 189 removes | :31:22. | :31:30. | |
extra chins on the consultation progress that is that this would | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
bring the bill into line with the Smith commission recommendation for | :31:35. | :31:44. | |
former -- lastly, New Clause 33 would enact a formal consultative | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
role for the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament setting | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
strategic priorities of the aviation Authority. He is an important issue | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
to my honourable friend. Does she agree that the time for debating is | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
woefully inadequate giving that magnitude and importance of the | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
issues, and the number of amendments later by the government. Does she | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
agree that caused 33 to have power over civil litigation is very | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
important, particularly to my constituents and in many other areas | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
of Livingston who have been affected by the first flight path in 40 years | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
in Scotland. The Scottish government she makes a important point that | :32:23. | :32:33. | |
would make a huge difference to her constituents copy she highlights the | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
lack of democratic accountability that some of these dishes and have | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
at this present time. We have heard language about the Scotland bill | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
today, they represent an historic departure, it creates a problem -- | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
powerhouse Parliament, but I welcomed the changes that the | :32:51. | :32:52. | |
government is bringing forward. Decided rhetoric and the world with | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
a hide the fact that the bill falls short of the Smith commission | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
proposals. More than that, it falls a long way sure of the promises made | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
to the people of Scotland. The SNP amendments are significantly | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
strengthened -- would strengthen the bill and bring it closer to the | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
expectations and aspirations of the voters who voted out in | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
unprecedented numbers for change. It will be those with low and average | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
incomes, families with incomes -- children, as they suffer under Tory | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
austerity. Fans have been made for the modest proposal and the skeleton | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
bill tonight. Members could develop met immeasurably by backing bills I | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
have moved. I asked them to stand with us tonight and interest of the | :33:40. | :33:41. | |
Scottish bill. Can I briefly comment on the | :33:42. | :33:57. | |
proposal to devolve abortion law to the Scottish Parliament. Would have | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
had a framework in place since 1967 which does allow decisions to be | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
made by women with their doctors, personal decisions that are often | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
very difficult but should rightly be made by women in those | :34:15. | :34:16. | |
circumstances. I worry that this proposal, without proper | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
consultation is being rushed through. It does allow for different | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
frameworks in Scotland and in England and Wales. We know that | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
where that has happened including in Ireland, but it also part of the | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
states, that has meant that a lot of women have had to travel in order to | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
get the abortion services, or in order to get the advice on health | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
care that they need. Often in very vulnerable situations, we do not | :34:44. | :34:45. | |
think that it is right for women in those situations to have to travel | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
far from home, far from family, in order to get the services and | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
support that they need. That is what this amendment allows. It also opens | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
the door for campaigning, deliver a campaign against a fermented system. | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
We have seen in the US, where anti-abortion campaigners have | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
deliberately targeted states, by state, legislative by legislative, | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
and that have made no change at a federal level, but at state-level. | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
To have brought in a 200 changes and restrictions on women's access to | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
abortion over a period of three years alone. I think it is a sad | :35:25. | :35:32. | |
reflection of a mistrust in the Labour Party that it embers have... | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
With anything that might require some thought and care. Why is it | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
that Labour members here have such low opinions of this? I think that | :35:44. | :35:51. | |
the honourable member is missing the point completely. This is about | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
whether or not you have different frameworks, and therefore the | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
possibility for different frameworks on whether you are expected women to | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
travel because the jurisdictions are different. There is a huge | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
significant chance for the anti-abortion campaigners... They | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
want to campaign. I want to point out to the House that this amendment | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
die that I have no time. This amendment was not initially put | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
forward by the SNP, or by the Scottish Secretary. It was put | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
forward by MPs who have campaigned for a long time for much greater | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
restrictions on abortion. The whole house should consider the fact the | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
anti-abortion campaigners want the opportunity. You can stand here | :36:37. | :36:45. | |
waiting. She wishes to give way, and I will indicate that you're coming | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
down, but you cannot stand there waiting on the off chance that she | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
will give way. The honourable Lady would like to look for the chair. We | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
had given -- been given too little time so I cannot give way. I urge us | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
to consider anti-abortion campaigners want this opportunity to | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
fragment us and divide is. All of us who support the 1957 act odds to | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
believe that we should stand together, and should not allow | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
anti-abortion campaigners to divide us. I urge the House to reconsider | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
this, we should consult on this properly, we should stay to | :37:24. | :37:25. | |
reconsider this, we should consult on this properly, we should take | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
into consideration, and we should bow against this amendment tonight. | :37:30. | :37:43. | |
I want to support what my friend has said. I want to remind the house | :37:44. | :37:55. | |
took a reconsider on this issue. When of the original dilution act of | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
1997 and 19 98 report together, the decision not to devolve the | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
legislative from work for the abortion was not an accident. It was | :38:08. | :38:15. | |
carefully considered. The reason was this. We examined the issue | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
carefully at the time. We tug came to the conclusion that it did not | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
make good legislative sense to allow for two different legislative | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
frameworks on this issue. We are pressed for time. There with me. -- | :38:33. | :38:42. | |
bear with me. We had experience of what happens when this is the case. | :38:43. | :38:52. | |
We had experience when ten women a day travelled from the Republic of | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
Ireland because they are in different jury distractions. I do | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
not predict that this will happen, but this allows for the possibility. | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
I say briefly, the logic was right then, and there is no logic to have | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
two different legislative from works on this issue 18 years later. Thank | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
you, it is a great pleasure to move our new causes to this part of the | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
bill. Causes two, three, five. There is amendment and causes that my | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
friends have brought. With a lot of ground to still cover in the short | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
debate, it is important to stay at the outset the crucial welfare | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
clauses in this bill. The fact that the crucial welfare causes deliver | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
on the said agreement in spirit and substance. That was not the case | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
before the government tabled its amendment last Monday. That is why, | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
and my SNP colleagues were right to highlight earlier that the leader of | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
the Scottish Labour Party did it the bow had been met, the architect of | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
the... The premise or medicine point. Given that the Minister has | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
laid the elements of this Monday, we believe that the benefits has been | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
resolved and it has been delivered. This is a victory for the Scottish | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
Parliament, the importance of which cannot be overstated. I said at the | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
end of the committee stage of the debate that if the government did | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
nothing else, nothing else, they should concede to my amendment 31 at | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
that time, which would allow the Scottish government the power to | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
create Social Security system, and two cause 34 does that. Inhabiting | :40:38. | :40:45. | |
the way. Can he tell me if he thinks that the proposals as laid down | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
tonight are as close to federalism as you can get? Yes or no? I'm glad | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
he said that, because it allows me to put the record straight. What the | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
SNP don't say it allows me to put the record straight. What the SNP | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
don't say is said sentence was as opposed to federalism as we can get, | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
and the context of 85% of it being one block called England. That is | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
what he said, and a something we talk about when they talk about as | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
near to federalism as possible. I think Gordon Brown can speak for | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
himself when he says these things. That is the context that he put this | :41:24. | :41:32. | |
particular bill and. This man agreed with the amendments that have come | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
forward on welfare from the Secretary of State. We agree as | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
well, and I thought there would have been some kind of a consensus across | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
the chamber for these particular amendments. Limiter two plus two in | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
the government and cause 34. Part three of the bill devolves to the | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
Scottish Parliament substantial power over welfare, transferred to | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
?20 million worth of wealth response abilities. When this was debated in | :41:55. | :42:02. | |
committee, this present an opportunity for Scotland. Today we | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
will pass bills that will transform Scottish relationship with Social | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
Security system. That is why the bill is so important to. According | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
to the House of Commons Library, if the bill were passed in the present | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
form, the Scottish Parliament would be refundable for 62% of public | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
legislative -- as In it bill -- and cause 34, it it will give Scottish | :42:26. | :42:34. | |
garment power to create benefits in all areas. It'd be up to the | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
Scottish Government to design the system that they want, and at the | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
Scottish system voted for, and to find the resources for that system. | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
The same goes for Clause 14, which devolves Scottish Parliament | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
regarding welfare foods. That was an SNP movement and we support that. | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
This visit agreements recommendation, and delivering on | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
this commitment has been a priority for this side of the house. We table | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
of the admission -- initial New Clause, which the government guarded | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
-- voted against. I'm delighted that they have come to earlier thinking | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
as he is done on the veto. As of the SNP finally conceded halfway to | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
Scottish Labour debate and discuss problem last week, and as we have | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
heard again tonight, the original cause 21, and this New Clause | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
affords the Scottish Parliament the power to also top of any reserve | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
benefit. There can be no doubt that the Scotland bill will all route -- | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
allowed the government to fully compensate the Scottish families | :43:37. | :43:38. | |
affected by the government's pernicious cuts to tax credits. | :43:39. | :43:46. | |
Style and will pay for administration of tax credits, and | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
they will also pay for an assertion and to top of tax credits. In order | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
to do that, instead of developing it, why should we pay for this | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
administration twice? It allows for the top up of any reserve benefit, | :44:01. | :44:08. | |
and from any devolves benefit. We use the terminology, we would have | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
to create new top of reserve benefit. The bill does this, and | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
this is where a lot of the Senate -- misunderstanding comes from Tama | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
because of these benefits are not being devolved there been switched | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
off. Therefore the Scottish Government would have to come | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
forward with proposed -- proposals and provisions in the bill. We are | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
running out of time so Lenny Prasanna. We will not cut tax | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
credits for Scottish working families. The Scottish Labour Party | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
has -- Scottish Labour Party has made a clear. We are clear on how we | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
would pay for that. We made it obvious I'm for different occasions. | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
We have not heard from the SNP if we they will match that. If they look | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
at the record, I ensure that it is a clearly cost-effective policy using | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
powers in the Scotland bill to be able to deliver that policy. Mr | :44:59. | :45:09. | |
Deputy Speaker, we have already had complained about a restricted | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
debate, and therefore the provisions of what takes too much time... In | :45:16. | :45:22. | |
order for us to be able to get to what we want to. The Secretary of | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
State has, into the Labour way of thinking and considering the | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
benefits of. The bill strikes the right balance of reserve and the | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
right areas -- areas. That is what the Smith agreement says. The state | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
and welfare system should remain shared across these islands. Closet | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
three it would establish a joint committee on welfare devolution to | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
oversee the transition and the limitation of the welfare answered | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
by this bill. That goes some way to resolving the integration -- | :45:54. | :45:55. | |
intervention by the honourable gentleman. This bill requires a | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
cross Parliament committee to oversee and limitation of welfare | :46:02. | :46:08. | |
powers. DS CBO have welcomed the New Clause as I quote," a dramatic | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
proposal given the need to ensure continuous delivery of Social | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
Security payments to those who receive them." And new committee | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
must be transparent and open. We have seen from the Scottish | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
government that if the Sid -- secret of fiscal Freiburg is not to | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
liking... We cannot allow that to happen in regards to these important | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
welfare provisions. In a Clause five, while Labour key aim is to | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
fulfil recognitions of the Smith agreement, they are prepared to go | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
beyond if they see a reasonable argument. Stop us to Clause five, | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
which goes down the Smith agreement in seeking to devolve universal | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
credit to the Scottish moment. Amendment 20 one, 22, and 23, an | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
area I was I believe we should go beyond which the Smith agreement | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
recommended, is making payments to sanctions individuals. The Labour | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
Party is committed to reviewing the UN sanctions... The punitive nature | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
which is beginning to spiral out of control, forcing people into | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
destitution on the back of the WP targets. This is why we need the | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
Scottish province to have the power to make payments to individuals... I | :47:24. | :47:33. | |
would like to move onto Labour amendment 2425 which I will address | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
alongside government amendment 77 and 78. These are concerned that the | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
proceedings on the face of the bill of a UK ministerial veto in relation | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
to the regulations passed at universal credit being transferred | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
to the Scottish promise. The Secretary of State has listened and | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
not just to the Labour Party, but could SNP on this particular issue, | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
has rejected those causes, and has removed the perceived to. When I | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
wrote to Secretary of State, he wrote back and said clearly and get | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
immediate insurance that the UK government would have "a legal | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
obligation to implement any changes made by Scottish ministers." Let me | :48:13. | :48:19. | |
also to amendment 17 and welcome amendment 71. These would remove the | :48:20. | :48:28. | |
restrictive regulations. I am disappointed that the restrictions | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
on disability allowance have not been listed. Amendment 194 offers an | :48:32. | :48:40. | |
alternative flexible definition of benefit. I hope that if the | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
Secretary of State cannot give us a satisfactory actor -- answer, we'll | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
at the next stage. Let me turn briefly, if I may, to the issue of | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
abortion or. Let me make it clear that no one in this chamber is a | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
saying that the postponement does not have the capacity, or indeed the | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
responsibility to do with abortion. Way said Amy Smith agreement is that | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
there would be a process. We have said very eloquently, that the issue | :49:07. | :49:14. | |
with regard to the devolution of abortion has to be done properly and | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
sensitively. The Secretary of State in my intervention earlier said in | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
the House in July that the Smith agreement did not allow for the | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
devolution of abortion at this stage, and it would not be in this | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
bill. At proper process would be put in place to ensure that it is done | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
and sensitively, properly, and in consultation with women | :49:38. | :49:39. | |
organizations in Scotland. I do not think that the Secretary of | :49:40. | :49:50. | |
State... It does not take into account the issues that many women | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
in Scotland have contacted me about. Let me make this point, this is not | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
about the time limit for abortion. This is around the entire COMDEX | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
matrix of the legislative functions behind us, the criminality of | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
abortion, the issues of authorisation of abortion, where | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
abortion can be carried out. It is not just about 24 weeks, is much | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
much more than that, and the Secretary of State should reflect on | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
the fact that a proper consultation needs to be put in place, otherwise | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
he is in danger of doing something incredibly dangerous for abortion in | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
this country. The Secretary of State said time and time again when taking | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
in the intervention, that his view was that this postponement had the | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
capacity to legislate on this. With my friend agree with me, it is not a | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
question of whether or not the capacity is there, is a question of | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
whether or not it is desirable to have two different legislator | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
regimes between Scotland and England? This may happen anyway, and | :50:51. | :51:00. | |
I'm confident in because promise. I take the first ministers word -- | :51:01. | :51:07. | |
will not change the legislation. You would end up with abortion, and no | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
one wants that across the United Kingdom. The Scottish act did not | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
make it to this place, but this person was heavily involved in it. I | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
will quickly move on, because I want to move to an image 26, the | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
sentiment makes a exquisite that among the X exceptions, the power is | :51:31. | :51:37. | |
being devolved to the ScottishPower -- power -- Parliament to extend | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
corners. He Labour Party take this seriously, and we think the campaign | :51:43. | :51:44. | |
for helping us for this particular issue. I want to remove to amendment | :51:45. | :51:51. | |
225. We now have a welfare section of this bill that, in line with this | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
agreement, everyone in this timber should be proud of that achievement, | :51:57. | :51:59. | |
and we must move onto the debate of how to these powers. Thank you. Mr | :52:00. | :52:14. | |
Speaker, I do not want to say too much more at this stage, other than | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
to welcome the fact that other than the discussion around the issue of | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
abortion, which I will come back to, I welcome the fact that the | :52:25. | :52:32. | |
government causes that have been proposed have been accepted. I am | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
grateful for that. I set out one of the bill was an committee stage that | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
we would listen to proposals which came forward, sensible proposals | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
within the context of the Smith agreement. That is what we have | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
done. That is why I am not persuaded by amendments which have been | :52:53. | :53:05. | |
tabled, which have been set out in relation to the welfare system. | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
These were not amendments in relation to areas which form a part | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
of agreement. As we have mentioned, the SNP were of course part of the | :53:15. | :53:21. | |
Smith commission process, and signed up up to an agreement, which at that | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
point for example did not seek to devolve tax credits to the Scottish | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
Parliament. Instead, what was devolved its extensive powers that | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
allowed the topping up of tax credits and other benefits. Allows | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
Gratian of new benefits in devolved areas, and the topping up of child | :53:42. | :53:49. | |
benefit. It allows changes to be made to income tax in | :53:50. | :53:59. | |
Asked the Secretary of State for pensions, can the Minister assure us | :54:00. | :54:07. | |
that in the event the Scottish Government decides to top of | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
benefits, it would not be considered any kind of... At a later stage? The | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
Scottish Government will have to take into consideration all the it | :54:20. | :54:29. | |
makes. Because it will be responsible and accountable. We will | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
see a change, I suspect Mr Deputy Speaker, a change from on the costed | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
promises to one of having to be held to account from where the money is | :54:41. | :54:48. | |
coming from. I do not agree with the Scottish Labour Party's agreement to | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
put out the taxes of hard-working people in Scotland, but at least | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
they are honest about it, they want to put out tax to pay for additional | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
benefits in Scotland. That is a position which is fair for them. The | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
Scottish national party have said nothing about how they will deploy | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
these significant new powers and once again, in relation to welfare, | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
the focus has been solely on what can be done, rather than applying | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
thoughts and rigour to exactly what could be done. Benefits in Scotland | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
could completely be redesigned. It is like disability benefits. Reserve | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
benefits that the Scottish Parliament can talk up, as we have | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
heard about. And changes to the income tax, but that is not where | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
the thought process is, the thought process is entirely on what we | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
cannot do. It really has been a case this evening as we have heard, the | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
various statements in relation to benefits, it really has been... | :55:57. | :56:05. | |
Rather than devolve. I note that the right honourable Lady does not agree | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
with my position on abortion. I know that she is minded to oppose this | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
measure. But what I would offer to her, even in the context of that | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
opposition is to be with her and any of her colleagues who have concerns | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
to discuss how we can best, if my amendment is carried, how we can | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
best take forward this issue to ensure that the matters she set out | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
do not come to power. I do not believe they will, I strongly | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
believe the Scottish Parliament has the capacity to deal with this | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
issue. I believe there is no constitutional reason why this | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
amendment should not be made. The Smith commission did indeed | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
recommend that it be done. It recommended that it be sensitively | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
done, recommended the process, and I'm very happy to talk about that | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
process. I know the Scottish Government is happy to talk about | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
that process, and engage with interested parties. I do on that | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
basis hope that the House will not divide on these issues. The | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
government has set out its amendments, I believe the amendments | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
set out by both Labour, no I will not. I believe the amendments set | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
out by both Labour and the SNP in relation to this grouping go beyond | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
what the Smith commission proposed. I believe the government amendments | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
deliver the Smith commission in full, and on that basis I move my | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
amendment, government amendments, for the support of the House in that | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
regard. The question is that New Clause 14 be read a second time. I | :57:46. | :57:58. | |
think the ayes have it. The question is that New Clause 14 be added to | :57:59. | :58:09. | |
the bill. I think the ayes have it. Government New Clause 34. Minister | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
to move formally. New Clause 34 B read a second time. The ayes have | :58:15. | :58:24. | |
it. The question is that New Clause 34 be added to the bill. The ayes | :58:25. | :58:37. | |
have it. Government New Clause 15. Minister to move formally. The | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
question is that government New Clause 15 B read a second time. | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
Clear the lobby. The question as the government New | :58:49. | :01:12. | |
Clause 15 be read a second time. Tellers for the ayes, George Colin | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
Berry and Margot James. Tellers for the noes, Jeff Smith and foxtrot. | :01:19. | :06:55. | |
Border! -- order. The ayes to the right 350, to noes to the left 183. | :06:56. | :11:35. | |
The ayes to the right, 350, the noes to the left, 183. The ayes have it. | :11:36. | :11:47. | |
Unlock. The question is that government New Clause 15 be added to | :11:48. | :12:02. | |
the bill. The ayes have it. Minister to move formally that government new | :12:03. | :12:10. | |
clauses 16 and 17 be added to the bill. The government new clauses 16 | :12:11. | :12:20. | |
and 17 be added to the bill. The ayes have it. A member of the | :12:21. | :12:33. | |
Scottish national party front bench. Two distinguished colleagues. | :12:34. | :12:42. | |
Seeking to move. They will move New Clause 18 formally. Thank you, the | :12:43. | :12:51. | |
question is New Clause 18 be read a second time. Division! Clear the | :12:52. | :12:59. | |
lobby! Border! The question of the New | :13:00. | :15:12. | |
Clause 18 be added to the bill. -- order. Tellers for the ayes, tellers | :15:13. | :15:26. | |
with Windows. Margot James. -- tellers for the noes. | :15:27. | :28:13. | |
Order! Order! The ayes to the right, 56, the noes into the left, 477. The | :28:14. | :28:39. | |
ayes to the right, 56, the noes to the left, 477. The noes have it. The | :28:40. | :28:51. | |
noes have it. Unlock. Order. A member of the Scottish national | :28:52. | :29:05. | |
party to move Clause 27 formally. The question is will it be added to | :29:06. | :29:07. | |
the bill. Division! Clear the lobby! The question is will cause 27 be | :29:08. | :31:24. | |
added to the bill. Order! The ayes to the right, 61, | :31:25. | :40:35. | |
the noes to the left, 288. The ayes to the right, 61, the noes to the | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
left, 288. The noes have it. The noes have it. Unlock! Order! | :40:42. | :40:54. | |
Government amendments, specifically government amendment 7273, 191, 192, | :40:55. | :41:05. | |
76 to 82, hundred 92 -- under 93, 83 to 98, 100, and number 99. I am | :41:06. | :41:21. | |
informed in the order. The question is that those before a mentioned | :41:22. | :41:30. | |
amendments be made. I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. We come | :41:31. | :41:38. | |
in-out to the opposition front bench amendment 26. We move formally. The | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
question is that amendment 26 be made. Division! Clear the lobby! | :41:45. | :44:19. | |
The question is amendment 26 be made. | :44:20. | :50:12. | |
Order. Order. The ayes to the right, 242, the noes to the left, 287. The | :50:13. | :53:45. | |
ayes to the right, 242, the noes to the left, 287. The noes have it, the | :53:46. | :53:56. | |
noes have it. Unlock. Order. The Minister to move government | :53:57. | :54:11. | |
amendments 101 228. 137 to 154. 129 to 136. This I believe to be done | :54:12. | :54:19. | |
formally. The question is that the government amendments to be made. | :54:20. | :54:30. | |
The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Order. Consideration completed, the | :54:31. | :54:38. | |
reading. Queens consent? Oh, a very fine and not. -- not. | :54:39. | :12:28. | |
Hello and welcome to Monday in Parliament, | :12:29. | :37:25. | |
our look at the best of the day in the Commons and the Lords. | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
Bad tempered exchanges in the Commons as MPs argue over | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
really happening in Scotland under really happening in Scotland under | :37:34. | :37:47. | |
the 1-party state that has become the SNP. Members are not going to | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
listen to | :37:52. | :37:52. |