09/11/2015 House of Commons


09/11/2015

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of staff who wishes to observe the two-minute silence will do so.

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Order! Urgent questions. Thank you Mr Speaker, will the Secretary of

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State to provide on set for the urgent question which I have given

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him notice? Thank you very much Mr Speaker. It is really great that the

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home Secretary cannot be with us. They are in Brussels. The government

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believes that police funding must be allocated on a base of a modern

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transport BOOING transparent formula. The current arrangements

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and I think that we would agree are unclear, out of date, and unless

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they are. National police chief, have all called for a revised model.

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The issue around the current formula is well known. The right honourable

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member agreed to review the formula, sadly it was not done. The home

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affairs select committee have all argued for a new formula as well.

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During the last Parliament Mr Speaker, my predecessor announced

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that the government will publish a new formula, and we went into

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consultation. That consultation closed in September which have not

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seen responses. Since then we had been working with forces around the

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country on the principle of how the budget can go for the. In this

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process, I am sad to say there was a error made on the data that has been

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used. It does not change the principles. It was never indicative,

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we recognise that this has caused a great deal of concern for police

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across the country. I regret this mistake and I apologise to the

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house. I also apologise to the 43 authorities that I wrote to during

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the extended consultation period as part of the review. Mr Speaker,

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because it is for other reasons, the government was to delay the changes

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for 2016 and 2017 as we have previously intended. It is essential

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that we come to a fair formula that is transparent and mastered by

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demand and is supported by the police. So, the government will

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continue to listen and consider the next steps in conjunction with the

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police leaders. I will update the house in due course. The perform of

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the police funding is something that we should all support. We will bring

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it forward, but we are delaying the process at the present time. Thank

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you Mr Speaker, can I thank you for granting the question and I think

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the Minister for his answer. I would like to commend the Minister to be

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the first policing minister in years to tackle the issue of police

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funding was needed to be addressed. Last week the home affairs select

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committee took evidence on the formula. The newly received was

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damning. Last Wednesday, 34 members of this house took part in a debate

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on this subject based on the old criteria. Last Friday in a letter to

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the police crime commissioner, the home office admitted that the

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proposed funding for Miller was based on the wrong data. According

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to the previous formula, two thirds of the police forces would have

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gained from the proposals and a Florida would have lost from it. Now

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41 forces will lose out. Now they will lose out again. The

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Metropolitan police were expecting to lose a but it appears they are

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now set to gain or possibly lose a different amount. Another was set to

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lose the 700,000 by last week but they are now set to lose to play 4

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million. This entire process has been described as police and crime

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commissioners and others as unfair, unjust, and flawed. What started off

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with good intentions is rapidly descending into... To call it a

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shambles will be charitable. There are people who are taking the

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government to court. Ditto what has happened, will the Minister agree to

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a number of suggestions? -- given what has happened. Police forces and

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others have spent a inordinate amount of time and effort on this

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subject. I support the delay. But will he go one step forward and

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establish a panel consisting of experts who understand the

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importance of sharing data and are more competent of understanding

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mathematics and can count. This is a defining moment for policing. Last

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week in the dispatch box, he said that he was proud to be the Minister

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of responsibility for the best police force in the world. Now it is

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his chance to show it by engaging with the police service. This

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formula will last a long time, if the pending formula is to last as

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long as the other formula that it must be there just and workable. Mr

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Speaker, it seems to be very popular in parts of the United Kingdom. What

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I would want to do is to make sure that the house is aware of the many

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things that the honourable gentleman has been. -- has said. I've listen

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carefully at the evidence, not everybody was unhappy, but on the

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basis of what I have said today, we will listen carefully, get it right,

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and make sure that the mathematics is right so that I am not in this

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embarrassing situation again. The right honourable gentleman, my

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parliamentary neighbour who initiated this urgent question, were

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met by the Minister not too long ago when we discussed this question. Can

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my honourable friend tell the house how he would describe a fairness,

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and how he would describe the schedule, the time schedule of this

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new process. It is very important that police and crime commissioners,

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note quite the context in which they will be setting their budgets in the

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spring. Can I thank my honourable friend for his comments. It was a

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good meeting and I'd promised to listen. I hope that in the response

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that I'm given today, it shows that we have listened. The formula for

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2016 and 2017 will be based on the existing formula. There will be a

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lot of work, and a lot of listening and understanding as to what the

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demand are, to get us out of these difficult financial situation and we

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are in a cell that we will think it is fair and that we will not be in

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the position that we are in today. Mr Speaker, the first thing that the

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Minister should do is apologise to the police service for a shambles

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process replacing and unfair for Miller with another. Withholding

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vital information, then publishing the wrong information. Can I ask him

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to go one step further, last Wednesday he dismissed all concerns

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over his new funding formula. 48 hours later it was revealed that he

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got it wrong and published the wrong data, with funding allocations

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gearing up to 181 million up to 31 losers. When did he know that? What

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did he know, and when did he know what? Mr Speaker, a conservative PCC

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summed it up on behalf of the police service. We have lost all trust of

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the process. Can I therefore say to the policing minister that he should

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abandon the process, which he has agreed to do. As opposed by the

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police and crime ministers, to start fresh, which I hope he has agreed to

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do. Act in a open and transparent way and published all data and to be

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overseen by and independent garden party, perhaps the national audit

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office whistles are no longer confident in the home office. The

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third and final apology that he should give as to the public. The

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first duty of any government is the safety and security of their people.

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They expected to act accordingly when it comes to the country and

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policemen. This would be laughable if it was not so serious. I say with

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in all sincerity to the police minister and the home Secretary get

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a grip and get it right! I think the house will be disappointed in the

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told. -- I was informed on Friday, this is the first opportunity that I

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have had to inform the house of the situation. At the end of the day, I

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was not told, the first I knew was Friday. We will make sure as the

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goal for the Mr Speaker, that we have a fair process. That is only

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fair. I have apologised, and I will do so if necessary. But I do not

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apologise on his attitude because I feel that he got it wrong anyway. I

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want to congratulate Tony Hawk and his team for uncovering this terror.

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Would the Minister confirmed to my constituents and all those that

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reviewing this situation he should also take full account for the

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impact of role policing and the impact of tourism for policing

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caused? -- cost by Mac Mr Speaker, I apologise. The decisions as to

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Wirral and other measures in the formula is exactly what we were

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trying to do. -- rural. It was much of the rural constituencies that

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were upset with the formula. Will get it right. Late last week the

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police commissioner and the chief of police informed me that the

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settlement was very good. 48 hours later, they were told that the whole

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thing was wrong. Now they have lost a ?13.1 million. Is there any

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occasion when in this government, this Tory government, ministers

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consider resigning because of it all mighty mass of that they have taken

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part in? Firstly can I congratulate on the reduction of crime. They have

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not lost anything because it wasn't indicative proposal, no money was

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allocated. And as usual of the honourable to them and get it wrong

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again. -- as usual the honourable Guzman gets it wrong again. There

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was some ?2 million under the formula. Now there is about ?10

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million. Does my honourable friend agree that although the force will

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appreciate the frank apology that he has given, what it now requires is

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some form of reassurance that whatever they will get it would be

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given with sensitivity? I am always conscious of the morale of the

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officers, that is why I say that I am proud to be the police minister

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of the best police force in the world. Can I say to mind right

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honourable friend that no money has gone missing from North Wales, it

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was in indicative proposal and no money was likely to go until the

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decision was made. The existing formula will continue for the extra

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year while we do the rest of the proposal. The police force has

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suffered drastically because of the cuts that have occurred. Debates

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have been held over the West Midlands position. He has previously

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accepted, I believe the unfairness of what occurred because of the

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previous formula, would he bear all of this in mind and let us hope it

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will be a fair settlement for the West Midlands police force? Mr

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Speaker, usually when the honourable Guzman stands I disagree with most

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of things he said. This time I will not. I think it needs to be fair and

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we will delay the process of that we can get it right. Could my right

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honourable friend confirmed that he will carry on meeting with all of

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the lecture MPs to find a fair settlement for them? Can I

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congratulate all of the MPs for the consideration of meeting with me and

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all parties listening to what we were proposing. They came forward

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with their own ideas which also helped with the decision that we

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have made to delay the process. The Commissioner will be taking 1.3

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billion out of the Metropolitan police budget. Can administer now

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the left how much they need to save or keep, and what bearing that has

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all the amount that he has made today in the context of the

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borrowing and here in London? That is a matter for the Commissioner, he

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is the elected commissioner and we will wait for his proposal on what

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he decides. However, no decision is made, it has not been announced, the

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funding formula will be announced in December. That is what I announced a

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few minutes ago. Thank you very much Mr Speaker. May I welcomed the

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statement that this process that it will be delayed, and thank him that

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they have engaged colleagues. Is it not the case that while there are

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problems with the existing formula, it will always be difficult to

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adjust between different forces in and environment were spending

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reductions are being found by force is already which will mean that some

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forces will have to face double cut. Does that not therefore argue that

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there will be a Synod delays? I think we need to sit down now that

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we have made decisions. What was quite clear, is that we needed to

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make a decision to pause so that we get it right and that is the

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important thing. Mr Speaker, is he aware of the amount of time and

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effort that was wasted in the summer. They were due to lose 24.9

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million the biggest loser in percentage terms. Is the problem for

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this shambles is because he did not provide the lead to the police and

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crime Commissioner so that they could dissect it and that we can

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have a debate about it? I had a very good meeting with the MPs, I thought

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it was a good meeting. We listened and listen carefully. The reason for

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the problem here is that data was not transferred across. It was a

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statistical error and the Department. Mode is the

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responsibility to pay that I am responsible for that and that is the

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way it should be? And I commend my honourable friend for coming to the

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house and giving and apology. Would we met London MPs and they

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complained about the previous formula and that there were some

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things that London undertakes. Can he get a guarantee that he will be

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transparent and recognise the demand for those events and the London

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settlement? London is one of the greatest in the world. It has

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particular policing issues which have to be addressed. One of the

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reasons we are positing is to make sure, absolutely sure, that all the

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different of funding are done correctly and that they have the

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resources that they need. Thank you Mr Speaker. They sent a letter on

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Thursday. Is the Minister on a sleep telling us that he was not made

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aware of the contents of the letter until Friday? Order! Order! I can

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entirely understand the rational of what the honourable Lady is

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inquiring. Can I say that I should not -- no one should insert the word

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honestly into any questions. The assumption has to be that every

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member in this house is always on the. We did not accuse each other of

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honesty or make it seem as much. I think it is useful to new members to

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get to grips of the new procedures. That and recognising that the debate

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goes to the chair, therefore we do not use the word you and so on. I

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hope that is regarded as hell. The minister. -- I hold that is regarded

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as well. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I commend my right honourable friend

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for halting the process of. Can I also put in a plea for the police

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who had been at the lowest end of the funding for many years. Mr

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Speaker, one advantage of being here today and making the statement that

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I have made is starting the process again and everybody will not sleep

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the put in the place, and my honourable friend has done very

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well. The minister said that he hoped the West Midlands will be

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treated unfairly, is he aware that under the existing funding formula

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he is maintaining, the West Midlands have been hit very hard with cuts

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over 100 years. What is he going to do over the next period via he has

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been paused to ensure that they will not be hit again? What is he going

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to say to the Chancellor to ensure that police forces are treated

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fairly? The reason that we are tangibly funding is to get a fairer

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and lesser paid system. -- left Opec. The form below will be in

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place for another year. -- formula. Can I think my honourable friend for

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his integrity and honesty and responding the way that he has. When

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he comes to contemplate the future funding, what he make sure that not

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only the money is considered carefully but the freedoms that

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exist for small rural forces to work with other forces nearby. Mr

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Speaker, my honourable friend makes and important point, alongside the

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funding from the review was the capability review which is being run

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by the chief. Some of it will be done by the cheese and some of it

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will be done by the Regents. As I have always said, we can often do

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things better if we do it together. I think folks should listen to

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that. I welcomed the ministers apology today. How can my

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constituents and my police and crime commissioners have any confidence

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that when the home office undertake this formula, in a and 2017 that the

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Minister will get it right this time -- 2016. I think we'll make sure

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that the formula is looking very carefully. We'll be looking at

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recommendations as well. What ever happens, this formula will change so

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that it is fair for everybody. Thank you Mr Speaker, can I congratulate

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my right honourable friend the Minister for instigating the police

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funding formula review, something that of course was promised by the

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party opposite, but never delivered. In positing this process in which is

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in inevitability cannot urge them not to wait too long, because many

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of those in sparsely populated communities have felt seen off for

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many years. They would like to see the formula amended in a transparent

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and opaque way and and hopefully a way that will restore the balance

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that they see and police funding. Mr Speaker, one of the reasons why this

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funding for global is not changed by the previous administration or any

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administration is because it is so damn difficult. I know that it is

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not parliamentary language but it is true. The fact that it was hard was

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not in excuse not to do it but we do need to get it right.

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Can I welcome the Minister's statement today but he must realise

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the buck stops with him not official. I find it remarkable that

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it took 24 hours for him to know about this problem though his

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officials did not tell him. Does he not realise now that the police and

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police commissioners and the police family that the home office has lost

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all credibility on this process? It is not about having time to take

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questions from the select committee chair and have independent oversight

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of this process. I do not accept that the whole police family has no

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faith in the home office or in the. He's absolutely right to say that in

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minister oversight I am as possible which is why I have not blamed and

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individual civil servant or any department at the end of the day it

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is my wrist bones ability which is why I am standing here. I warmly

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welcome my right of friend's approach today in his apology to the

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House. Is characteristic of the trans parent way he has approached

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this entire settlement. When he brought back characteristic

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transparency to the meeting of cross party meeting between Lancashire

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MPs, we were hoping that Lancashire would see a fairer formula. It

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cannot be right when budgets are going up in some budgets are going

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down that the formula is fair. Every police force should be equally

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measurable across the country. Can I thank my honourable friend for his

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comment. It was a really good meeting we had any deputy speaker's

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office. I promise to listen and I will continue to listen. At the end

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of the day there will be winners and losers with any change of any

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funding formula which is why some of the forces that are going to do very

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well seemed to be quite quiet with the home affairs select committee

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but on the other hand I understand exactly where they're coming from. A

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good many colleagues are still seeking to catch my eye and I'm to

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accommodate all of them to have any realistic aspect of succeeding in

:26:47.:26:49.

doing so without jeopardising the square business will require brevity

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both from back benches and from the Minister. We can look for the

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provision of a textbook to a distinct former minister Mr David

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Hansen. Can I thank the Minister for the named check it is complicated,

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but the fact is North Wales police are still now went to be ?10.5

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million were planning assumptions left than they thought they were

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going to be. How can the Minister give confidence to North Wells

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police about the shortfalls of the have. I have not announced the 16-17

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budget. It will be in December. The honourable gentleman knows as a

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former colleague in this department that we have to wait for the formula

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and decision in December. Can I thank my right on over and for his

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candour during the course of today? And I also encourage them to work

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with the police crime commissioners to ensure that their efficiencies

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can be made to bring ensure that they are being changed in different

:27:49.:27:51.

ways. There are more efficiencies that can be done without affecting

:27:52.:27:55.

front-line policing and some of the technology coming through is going

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to aid from I'm policing not least body worn video cameras but I intend

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to work with all the 43 police and crime commissioners and the chief

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constables and in particular Devon and Cornwall as they have been very

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good set statisticians. Residents are already... Those living in large

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urban areas and in doing. Woody ensure the new Lamela takes into

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consideration the extra cost of two thirds of Wales especially the extra

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infrastructure required to ensure an emergency response that is effective

:28:35.:28:43.

as? That is exactly what we will do. As one of the Lancashire MPs

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that was very appreciative of the Minister's meeting we had a few

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weeks ago, can the Minister assure us that when Mike is being

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considered that we will not as my honourable friend from Braswell said

:29:00.:29:05.

the a loser in this process. As someone who has direct first-line

:29:06.:29:07.

experience cannot also think him for the open and honest way he has

:29:08.:29:14.

approached this process with all of us? I sometimes get myself in

:29:15.:29:19.

trouble year for being too honest and forthright so thank you very

:29:20.:29:21.

much to my honourable friend for those comment. I cannot promise

:29:22.:29:25.

anything as we start a new process, but what we will do is make sure

:29:26.:29:30.

that I sit with all of the constituencies and all of the forces

:29:31.:29:33.

to make sure we get the best possible we can with the modern

:29:34.:29:37.

formula as I say that will be suspended for a year. Thank you Mr

:29:38.:29:44.

Speaker. Derma was last month ranked the highest performing force in the

:29:45.:29:48.

country. Is very worrying that there might be a ?10 million cut. At the

:29:49.:29:57.

Minister is plain whether the delay means that there'll be cuts in the

:29:58.:30:00.

Autumn Statement followed by further cuts an 18 months' time. The purpose

:30:01.:30:04.

of standing here making a statement is saying that Durham would have had

:30:05.:30:10.

with the no formula won't happen because actually they're going to

:30:11.:30:14.

stick with their original formula. We will have to wait for the Autumn

:30:15.:30:20.

Statement, Mr Speaker. The Minister will be aware that North Yorkshire

:30:21.:30:24.

is the largest policing area in England. The force currently gave

:30:25.:30:28.

approximately ?8 million in the current formula for its Brownlie.

:30:29.:30:33.

Can the Minister assure me that police and crime Commissioner who

:30:34.:30:39.

did a fantastic job, will be properly consulted and listened to

:30:40.:30:41.

during this welcome extended Ross says? Can I play tribute to North

:30:42.:30:48.

Yorkshire and I understand fully the pressures they are. One of the

:30:49.:30:54.

reasons I got into this situation if I was working with 43 police and

:30:55.:30:58.

crime commissioners and they were telling me exactly what is going on

:30:59.:31:02.

but I will continue to do that. I am sure the Minister will join me in

:31:03.:31:06.

congratulating derma believed on being designated the most

:31:07.:31:11.

outstanding police force by her Majesty's inspector but does the

:31:12.:31:15.

Minister realise his wife formula means we will have to face an

:31:16.:31:18.

additional ?10 million and cut. If that happens, it is a reduction in

:31:19.:31:28.

police numbers from 1720 ten to 850 and 2020. Out did he expect Durham

:31:29.:31:33.

police to continue believing? Can I respectfully digested go back to the

:31:34.:31:36.

drawing board, recalibrated formula and come up with something that

:31:37.:31:44.

makes sense? I have tried to be very careful in not responding to be bold

:31:45.:31:47.

that probably were not listening to my statement. I have suspended it,

:31:48.:31:53.

there am like the other 242 forces will work together for a new

:31:54.:32:02.

formula. It is suspended. Thank you Mr Speaker. I congratulate I right

:32:03.:32:06.

honourable friend on real looking at this issue. And well he commit to

:32:07.:32:16.

speaking with Katie, the excellent police and crime Commissioner for

:32:17.:32:19.

Sussex where crime has reduced when the new formula discussions take

:32:20.:32:24.

place? Mr Speaker not only will I commit to speaking with the

:32:25.:32:29.

excellent police and crime Commissioner, I left her 15 minutes

:32:30.:32:37.

ago. LAUGHTER Mr Speaker what the Minister gave a

:32:38.:32:46.

commitment to give due consideration to metropolitan district across the

:32:47.:32:50.

board cuts have an absolutely devastating effect on authority that

:32:51.:32:55.

Merseyside and other metropolitan district. We would have to make a

:32:56.:33:04.

24.9% increase to make that up, the cut. We collect about .5 million, it

:33:05.:33:14.

has a different impact because of lower tax rates. Could you please

:33:15.:33:17.

give due consideration to that when we -- reconsidering? One of the

:33:18.:33:28.

issues raised consistently is the present issue. That is not in my

:33:29.:33:31.

hands, it is part of what we look at when we are doing the formula as we

:33:32.:33:36.

go forward. Can I say, Mr Speaker, the precept does in some parts of

:33:37.:33:42.

the country won a substantial part of the funding where in others it

:33:43.:33:45.

does not. I promise I will keep a look on not. -- on that. I

:33:46.:33:55.

congratulate my honourable Frank and I recognisably his commitment across

:33:56.:34:00.

the country of attacking crime. Could you confirm to the House that

:34:01.:34:04.

there'll be a very clear communication plan that will be said

:34:05.:34:08.

to all the police forces and Cheshire police quite through as to

:34:09.:34:12.

where milestones that will be required of them to finalise this

:34:13.:34:17.

formula in months ahead for once and for all. We have time to look at

:34:18.:34:23.

making sure that we consult across the board, making sure we work both

:34:24.:34:28.

leak. In my statement I specifically said that we need to get agreement

:34:29.:34:31.

from the cheese and the best League PVCs to make sure this will work --

:34:32.:34:40.

she's in the police commissioners. Endeavour sure we have faced the

:34:41.:34:47.

fourth highest on crime, the fifth four burglary and seven and nine for

:34:48.:34:51.

real threat from extremism. We have urban challenges but are funded

:34:52.:34:56.

today as a rural forest. Even H MIC having knowledge that historic

:34:57.:34:59.

underfunding has been a major issue for the forest. Under the new

:35:00.:35:03.

figures or the old, Bedfordshire Hartley gained. Doesn't common sense

:35:04.:35:07.

dictate there with a plot without formula on that basis and will it be

:35:08.:35:12.

corrected? Can I fix my promontory neighbour, of course I know this

:35:13.:35:17.

from it ageing the well even though it is not my County I am very

:35:18.:35:21.

conscious of the pressures of Bedfordshire from the policing angle

:35:22.:35:24.

and it is something we will make sure we look at going forward even

:35:25.:35:31.

in more detail. Can I also congratulate my right of a friend

:35:32.:35:34.

for his statement which he delivered with characteristic clarity and

:35:35.:35:40.

integrity. Is the Minister agree with me that larger urban forces

:35:41.:35:48.

such as Hampshire police deserve a revised funding formula so they can

:35:49.:35:51.

be funded on the basis of need as well? At this date I cannot comment

:35:52.:36:00.

on exactly how Hampshire is going to be funded or all they will get in

:36:01.:36:03.

December. Can I congratulate Hampshire not only on their

:36:04.:36:09.

excellent MPs but in my year extensively over the last few weeks

:36:10.:36:12.

but also on board thinking and working with other emergency

:36:13.:36:17.

services brilliantly well some of what other forces can look out

:36:18.:36:24.

across the country. I welcome the Minister's apology and also his

:36:25.:36:28.

decision to suspend the formula while the correct figures are

:36:29.:36:32.

calculated copy even the scale of the error and given that last week

:36:33.:36:37.

Lancashire was due to lose 25 million, today we're due to gained

:36:38.:36:41.

16 million. Does he not knowledge that Lancashire was right to

:36:42.:36:46.

maintain reserves to plan prudently for the future. I think I agree with

:36:47.:36:52.

most of what the honourable Lady said but I do think it is an issue

:36:53.:36:56.

that in the 43 authorities we have in England and Wales there are

:36:57.:37:08.

reserves of ?2.1 billion. Mr Speaker, Northamptonshire has been

:37:09.:37:09.

historically underfunded but despite that we have seen many innovative

:37:10.:37:14.

new policing model come forward in the county. Will be minister commit

:37:15.:37:18.

despite the delay to continue to provide funding for innovative new

:37:19.:37:24.

models to come forward with? Verdana Mr is one of the most forward

:37:25.:37:28.

thinking forces in the country and the work -- Northamptonshire, and

:37:29.:37:34.

the work they're doing is significant. The police innovation

:37:35.:37:38.

fund is exactly what my honourable friend is alluding to and that is

:37:39.:37:43.

what the money is for. I hope that the Minister said about suspension

:37:44.:37:46.

but under this error that will sleep would've had the fourth highest loss

:37:47.:37:51.

across the UK of 15.5 million and it comes on top of the fact that

:37:52.:37:55.

Cardiff already does not receive the same treatment as London, Belfast

:37:56.:37:58.

and Edinburgh in support of its situation as a capital city. It but

:37:59.:38:02.

that delete that particular towns it bases. Will be address that concern

:38:03.:38:08.

that Cardiff is not getting the support for its policing that other

:38:09.:38:11.

capitals are getting across the UK? Of course that is part of the review

:38:12.:38:17.

that we will make sure and look carefully at what the honourable

:38:18.:38:20.

gentleman has said. I have not of course you have not lost anything

:38:21.:38:26.

because I have suspended the review. The news that the formula

:38:27.:38:35.

was ungenerous to Derbyshire... Canada urge the Minister to stick to

:38:36.:38:39.

his guns and pressed ahead and get a new formula as soon as possible? So

:38:40.:38:48.

many experts outside and inside this house. I really do believe that we

:38:49.:38:54.

need a new funding formula. That and I think we have a cross party

:38:55.:38:58.

agreement and that is what we need to do. I did say there'll be winners

:38:59.:39:01.

and losers and I apologise to Derbyshire for the delay. The police

:39:02.:39:08.

and crime commissioners and two constables have made it clear that

:39:09.:39:11.

budget cuts delivered to any revised form duly that formula will

:39:12.:39:16.

fundamentally change policing? What is the vision and strategy for this

:39:17.:39:20.

fundamentally change policing landscape and how will this

:39:21.:39:23.

incorporate a possible loss of between five and 8000 police

:39:24.:39:26.

officers in London and the possible loss of 1000 community support

:39:27.:39:32.

officers with white Mr Speaker the --? That was based on where the

:39:33.:39:39.

formula was not where my announcements are today. Policing is

:39:40.:39:43.

changing and so is crime. That is something that we all will have to

:39:44.:39:51.

address and understand. The likelihood of... While he is asleep

:39:52.:39:55.

in bed and on this computer not while he is up around his house. I

:39:56.:40:01.

commence my right on over and for responding to the urgent question

:40:02.:40:04.

with his apology and he is right of course to say that the buck stops

:40:05.:40:07.

with him, but I have heard from the exchanges today that the error but

:40:08.:40:12.

discovered by one of the police authorities and therefore I'm

:40:13.:40:15.

concerned agent that the error was made by the department at the first

:40:16.:40:19.

place and be that the department did not uncover the error itself. This

:40:20.:40:24.

has wider implications for the protocols used by the civil service

:40:25.:40:29.

on all these funding formulas across the government. Will my right

:40:30.:40:32.

honourable friend make sure that the lessons he is learning from this are

:40:33.:40:35.

extended to other departments including education, health and all

:40:36.:40:39.

the others with local funding formula was? We must make sure there

:40:40.:40:48.

is confident in the did parchment, particularly the two I represent.

:40:49.:40:55.

We're meeting with the secretary tomorrow. The Minister will be aware

:40:56.:40:59.

that population growth creates challenges for the police, violent

:41:00.:41:02.

crime which I represent has increased by it 18.5% over the last

:41:03.:41:09.

year in my constituency. Will he in reexam using this formula not only

:41:10.:41:14.

worked in an absolutely transparent way, because that is what is

:41:15.:41:18.

critical to trust in policing by consent, and perhaps the digestion

:41:19.:41:23.

made by my right on about friend, the chair of the select committee

:41:24.:41:27.

but also take into account the account is created in the areas of

:41:28.:41:31.

high population growth? One of the reasons we need a new or new age

:41:32.:41:36.

because of the high population growth in the honourable lady's

:41:37.:41:39.

constituency. That is why the formula needed to be changed and

:41:40.:41:47.

because it was outdated. Can I join my honourable friend in thinking my

:41:48.:41:53.

right on the offering for meeting with Lancashire MPs on a cross party

:41:54.:41:56.

basis to discuss this issue allowing us to scrutinize in detail the

:41:57.:42:00.

predicted changes and consequences and look at the formula in detail on

:42:01.:42:04.

our police and crime commissioners who had confused us with much wider

:42:05.:42:09.

issues over Belize cuts. He mentioned the meeting with a and the

:42:10.:42:13.

ideas we submitted during that meeting. Kenny confirm those ideas

:42:14.:42:17.

cannot be fully considered and incorporated following the delay he

:42:18.:42:22.

had announced today? Fortunately the idea that came from the cross party

:42:23.:42:25.

group did come in before the end of the consultations were part of the

:42:26.:42:31.

consultation. Like the evidence that the home affairs select committee

:42:32.:42:33.

and other things that have come forward that is part of the reason

:42:34.:42:37.

why he we have delayed the data, misuse of the data clearly in the

:42:38.:42:41.

wrong place is what the catalyst that created the situation but we

:42:42.:42:44.

were arty listening and I think it is the best way to go forward. The

:42:45.:42:50.

Minister will know that as it stands West Midlands police could lose 20

:42:51.:42:56.

million of his indicative budget. Can you give us an insurance today

:42:57.:43:00.

that nothing on that scale will actually occur was not will anyone

:43:01.:43:04.

be held responsible for the blunder and the delay in informing the

:43:05.:43:10.

Minister wore our officials like ministers increasingly immune from

:43:11.:43:15.

responsibility for their actions was ? I take for stock ability and am

:43:16.:43:23.

fully responsibility for my actions. I cannot comment on what will happen

:43:24.:43:26.

and what will be the announcement in December which will be based on an

:43:27.:43:29.

existing one in formula and we will have to wait and see for the Autumn

:43:30.:43:33.

Statement -- existing funding formula. The House needed an apology

:43:34.:43:39.

for the statistical errors by the home office and we had one. Without

:43:40.:43:42.

reservation from the Minister and we should welcome mat. What matters

:43:43.:43:46.

more to me, is that when the result of the spending review are announced

:43:47.:43:50.

in December is that forces like the Gloucestershire cause the very will

:43:51.:43:54.

still have the resources they need to tackle serious crimes like drugs

:43:55.:43:58.

and knives and very sad death resulting from both. Could my write

:43:59.:44:01.

on over and give my constituents that assurance? He has done

:44:02.:44:09.

fantastically well. It was a statistical error which has made me

:44:10.:44:14.

make the decision that we came to today, but the reason for the change

:44:15.:44:18.

in the formula was actually to adjust the anomalies we have heard

:44:19.:44:22.

across the House today as how unfair the existing formula is. Is still

:44:23.:44:25.

needs to be changed and we need to push some of that. With the two

:44:26.:44:30.

constables in the PC sees copy -- the chief constables. What we have

:44:31.:44:39.

heard today without there was not only in error in the formula but

:44:40.:44:43.

also the home office. It seems a letter was sent on Thursday without

:44:44.:44:45.

the Minister was not informed about until Friday which I think we all

:44:46.:44:49.

agreed is unacceptable. Given the damage to the home office's

:44:50.:44:54.

credibility, will he take the suggestions made by many that

:44:55.:44:58.

they're now needs to be independent brought to the consultation process.

:44:59.:45:04.

Clear simple answer please? Have already said when we do this the

:45:05.:45:08.

typical analysis we will look were independent guidance on that to make

:45:09.:45:14.

sure... That it's important. It will be as open as possible. It that is

:45:15.:45:17.

not that is not that in the government do it when they were and

:45:18.:45:21.

power for 13 years? We're doing it. They did not. And number of

:45:22.:45:31.

inconsistencies with the process but the Minister has always ideas and

:45:32.:45:34.

listening and continued to show that very much at the dispatch box and I

:45:35.:45:37.

welcome the decision he made. Will he made. Willie also be consistent

:45:38.:45:41.

to see into that with the recognition of London as the capital

:45:42.:45:46.

city which must need a laugh as to the capital city find reflecting it

:45:47.:45:49.

as a national hub for policing and criminality? Mr Speaker as I alluded

:45:50.:45:59.

to this great capital that we are in today, that it needs and be funding

:46:00.:46:03.

will rapidly that and will make sure that continues to so. This episode

:46:04.:46:12.

raises serious concerns regarding the efficacy of the verification and

:46:13.:46:15.

validation process and particularly in relation to the Minister not

:46:16.:46:19.

being aware of that. Further into the statements that have been made,

:46:20.:46:24.

with regard to that specific issue, but will the Minister be doing to

:46:25.:46:27.

ensure that there is some independence and robustness and

:46:28.:46:31.

credibility in the verification and validation process? On the first

:46:32.:46:39.

point as I said earlier that I met with the secretary this morning and

:46:40.:46:41.

we will be meeting with the home secretary went to returns tomorrow

:46:42.:46:45.

to find out exactly what goes on in inquiries will continue. 12.8

:46:46.:46:53.

million from the wind police would not be a cut, it would be an act of

:46:54.:46:56.

butchery that would previously damage the fine work of the coin

:46:57.:47:03.

force which has recently seen an increase in violent crimes copy I

:47:04.:47:05.

think we all admire the breathtaking lives but of the Minister who seeks

:47:06.:47:11.

to shift the blame to the last Labour government of my honourable

:47:12.:47:14.

friend on the front bench. Good you give us a clear account in language

:47:15.:47:19.

we all understand how this was made so we can measure the inner top with

:47:20.:47:25.

the that the home office has been found? I would like to welcome a

:47:26.:47:32.

better question but clearly not. I was not passing the blame to anyone

:47:33.:47:37.

but simply saying that I am being resides were doing something it did

:47:38.:47:40.

not happen in 13 years of the previous administration. When have

:47:41.:47:44.

not lost anything, no force have lost anything these are indicative

:47:45.:47:48.

figures. What we need to make sure that we get the figures right at we

:47:49.:47:54.

go forward. With the background of the lowest levels of police officers

:47:55.:48:03.

since 1979, and her Majesty's Inspector of Gaza very describing

:48:04.:48:08.

the force as inadequate, under the right data, homicide would have been

:48:09.:48:13.

set to get to get additional five point ?7 million. Game you minister

:48:14.:48:17.

assure me and my constituents that under any new formula homicide will

:48:18.:48:19.

also get that additional sum of money? Of course I cannot do that.

:48:20.:48:26.

What I do understand exactly where the honourable ladies coming from.

:48:27.:48:30.

If we are going to pause look carefully at the funding formula and

:48:31.:48:33.

make sure we get it right I am sure she will agree with me it has to be

:48:34.:48:38.

fair. Across the 43 of authorities not to spare for homicide -- not

:48:39.:48:48.

just there for homicide. Neither the Minister nor the government is in

:48:49.:48:52.

control of the policing budget but standing there he does not seem to

:48:53.:48:55.

understand how incompetent this is. In the case of the Met, the error

:48:56.:49:02.

was in a sum of ?180 million. Can we at least have a full written at the

:49:03.:49:06.

nation of how this first occurred and be told at the amount of money

:49:07.:49:12.

wasted by the home office and the 43 forces and going through the

:49:13.:49:20.

process? Mr Speaker, I find it fascinating that after listening to

:49:21.:49:24.

all the other questions of the right honourable members that that was the

:49:25.:49:29.

best the honourable gentleman could do. At the end of the day, Mr

:49:30.:49:37.

Speaker, it is right and improper when mistakes are made at the

:49:38.:49:40.

Minister stand at the dispatch box and says is going on. We will make

:49:41.:49:47.

sure that the new process is as open and honest as possible especially

:49:48.:49:50.

for London. Just before we come to point the ordered there is an

:49:51.:49:56.

expectant house and the appetite is clearly great. I just want to say

:49:57.:50:00.

two things. Following the Minister's observations. First, I am

:50:01.:50:05.

genuinely grateful to the Minister of state who I have known for a very

:50:06.:50:09.

long time. It does not surprise me that he has conducted himself with

:50:10.:50:12.

courtesy. Secondly, because I think it is very important that our

:50:13.:50:19.

proceedings and procedures are intelligible and amenable for people

:50:20.:50:23.

beyond this place -- and meaningful for people beyond his place

:50:24.:50:28.

observing, it is only right to say that this very welcome apology and

:50:29.:50:33.

dedicated response to questioning by the Minister took place because

:50:34.:50:43.

urging questions were submitted and because I granted an urgent

:50:44.:50:47.

question. The home office itself declared in writing that the matter

:50:48.:50:51.

was not urgent and clearly did not think that the urgent question

:50:52.:50:55.

should be granted. It was entitled to its point of view, but I think

:50:56.:50:58.

the House would concur that it suffered from the white material

:50:59.:51:01.

disadvantage of being wrong. LAUGHTER

:51:02.:51:10.

Point of order. I maybe wrong but I am not aware of any member of in

:51:11.:51:16.

this place who is transgender. I have no problem with that, but we do

:51:17.:51:21.

have many woman who came into this house at this election and we do not

:51:22.:51:24.

have sufficient toilet in this place for female members of parliament.

:51:25.:51:30.

Could I ask of you Mr Speaker you could look very carefully at this

:51:31.:51:33.

and make sure we have sufficient toilets for women before we look at

:51:34.:51:40.

people who are not even here yet. I thank the honourable Lady for point

:51:41.:51:43.

of order and indeed for courtesy in getting a man's notice of it. I

:51:44.:51:47.

mentioned a moment ago I thought it was important that our proceedings

:51:48.:51:50.

and procedures should be intelligible. It might therefore be

:51:51.:51:55.

helpful if I explain what I think is the context of any background to the

:51:56.:52:00.

inquiry by the honourable ladies. Namely, reports in the media about

:52:01.:52:07.

work that is being done by Professor Sarah Child on steps that can be

:52:08.:52:15.

taken to make our Parliament... A more gender sensitive permit. It is

:52:16.:52:22.

absolutely true that such work is being done. There are various

:52:23.:52:28.

dimensions to the work and one part of it is looking at toilet

:52:29.:52:33.

facilities. If memory serves me correctly, that is the only

:52:34.:52:40.

reference to the issue, toilets, in terms of sensitivity, nothing beyond

:52:41.:52:43.

that. But the scope is therefore professor child, supported by others

:52:44.:52:48.

to look across the piece and to come to a view as to what would be good

:52:49.:52:53.

for the House as they. He wiping tears right we do not jump the gun,

:52:54.:52:59.

we let her do that work in the very studious and serious minded way that

:53:00.:53:03.

somebody of her intelligence and background will do. I think she will

:53:04.:53:06.

be alerted to the very proper point of order that the honourable lady

:53:07.:53:10.

has raised. Can I say that if the honourable lady would like to

:53:11.:53:14.

contact the professor herself or to write to the House of Commons

:53:15.:53:16.

commission or to the Administration Committee on the very important

:53:17.:53:20.

point she has made will be taken fully on board. I do not want to get

:53:21.:53:24.

into a situation when one is at the stage prioritising this over that.

:53:25.:53:29.

Let's look at it all, including her important point. Point of order Mr

:53:30.:53:35.

Tom Drake. We have learned today from the template that for a

:53:36.:53:40.

government department have agreed to cuts of 30% of their budgets

:53:41.:53:44.

information released no doubt as part of the Chancellor's campaign to

:53:45.:53:49.

get the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to agree to cut his

:53:50.:53:53.

budget substantially. Mr Speaker, it is not information you would expect

:53:54.:53:55.

us to hear urged in this place? When is the statement is delivered,

:53:56.:54:10.

the honourable gentleman and the house will receive what I suspect

:54:11.:54:15.

will be called a holistic view of the government is thinking and

:54:16.:54:20.

plans. As a matter of course, I should have thought it better, that

:54:21.:54:28.

specific details of individual agreements are first communicated to

:54:29.:54:35.

the house. It may well be, that because of the numbers of people

:54:36.:54:38.

involved in these discussions that things have filtered through into

:54:39.:54:46.

the public domain, in a way, slightly less orderly than the

:54:47.:54:49.

honourable gentleman of what a favour. On the vectors Gael, I think

:54:50.:54:57.

this ranks pretty low, but I think and nevertheless for drawing our

:54:58.:55:06.

attention to it. -- Richter scale. The BBC reported a story and that

:55:07.:55:12.

nine new prisons would be built to replace jails. To my horror, one of

:55:13.:55:18.

the president to be sold off, caused a great deal of concern to my

:55:19.:55:33.

constituents. -- present secondly, the present minister only last week

:55:34.:55:36.

and gave me in assurance that I would be the first -- brother the

:55:37.:55:48.

place is not being sold, how on earth does the BBC makes such a

:55:49.:55:55.

major mistake on and issue that affects my constituents considerably

:55:56.:55:58.

and Heino can I get it on the record that it has been sloppy journalism

:55:59.:56:06.

by the BBC? -- and how can I. First of all as people have noted, he is

:56:07.:56:12.

the source of his own salvation. He asks me how he could set the record

:56:13.:56:19.

straight, he has done just that! The honourable gentleman's point of

:56:20.:56:25.

order reveals three things. First, he cares massively about prisons. He

:56:26.:56:31.

is a global authority on the Victorian error. -- and he does not

:56:32.:56:42.

want to put the boot into the BBC. Can I raise the point of order with

:56:43.:56:46.

you that the backbenchers, on Friday and there were two debates on two

:56:47.:56:54.

bills. He what every syllable in those speeches was in order or the

:56:55.:56:59.

lives, and would not be allowed, some of the comments were peripheral

:57:00.:57:07.

to the subject involves. This was a noncontroversial and on oppose the

:57:08.:57:10.

bill. The second bill had allocated only just empowered to it. This was

:57:11.:57:18.

a bill that offered advantages to patients and health services. This

:57:19.:57:27.

was approved by members of this house, the member and defined expert

:57:28.:57:31.

opinion. The only objection came from the government benches, who

:57:32.:57:35.

spoke on behalf of of the pharmaceutical industry. Sadly, the

:57:36.:57:41.

attempt to have a division on the bill and have a devotion, were

:57:42.:57:45.

turned down and one of the resident just said, can I say, that what we

:57:46.:57:55.

have here is the power of backbenchers against the fact that

:57:56.:58:00.

big five are big sugar have a throat hold on this government. Nobody has

:58:01.:58:08.

a throat hold on the chair of. I know that the honourable gentleman

:58:09.:58:14.

will not suggest that for a moment. I would not be apprehensive of big

:58:15.:58:19.

institutions, big people or people who think that they are big. They

:58:20.:58:26.

are not bigger then the authority of the chair, rather I am in the chair

:58:27.:58:29.

or one of my deputies who is performing the duties of. As new

:58:30.:58:34.

members should know, the honourable sentiment is the author of a note

:58:35.:58:45.

that says how to be a backbenchers. The chair is conscious of its duty,

:58:46.:58:51.

to ensure the rights of backbenchers as a whole. We will keep and eye on

:58:52.:58:59.

the link and relevant of speeches on these occasions. Rather the

:59:00.:59:02.

honourable sentiment is present at the time or not, point of order. Can

:59:03.:59:10.

I have your guidance and advice on incident that took place last week,

:59:11.:59:22.

the incident took place at Manchester civil court. 40 to 50 of

:59:23.:59:27.

my constituents were involved in a cave. When I arrived at the security

:59:28.:59:32.

point I was told that I cannot the granted entry. I identified myself

:59:33.:59:41.

as a member of Parliament. I was calm and courteous as always. After

:59:42.:59:45.

about five minutes, a manager came and pointed his hand towards me and

:59:46.:59:48.

said that I was not coming in and that I was told to leave and the

:59:49.:59:57.

police were being called. I do not want to cause any trouble for

:59:58.:00:00.

greater Manchester police but I did have a desire to join my

:00:01.:00:04.

constituents is to support them in a court case. The I had eight quick

:00:05.:00:12.

chat with the police who I -- I had a quick chat with the police and I

:00:13.:00:16.

identified myself. They denied me the and He opportunity to support my

:00:17.:00:22.

constituents. I am seeking your advice on this matter. He has made

:00:23.:00:31.

clear based on what he has said to me and what he has articulated, his

:00:32.:00:37.

concern about the manner in which he was treated on Friday. While I am

:00:38.:00:45.

always keen to have the ability to represent people. The question on

:00:46.:00:48.

whether the member of Parliament should be given access to a court of

:00:49.:00:55.

law in support of constituents, is not a matter for me. It is a matter

:00:56.:01:01.

on which it would be appropriate for me to comment if I was not present

:01:02.:01:07.

and therefore privy to the instances. With that said, I make

:01:08.:01:13.

two other observations, first the honourable sentiment has made his

:01:14.:01:17.

point and put his concern on the record. I have a sort of sense, that

:01:18.:01:22.

colleagues who know that they could be in a similar position, will

:01:23.:01:27.

empathize with the honourable gentleman and from personal

:01:28.:01:29.

experience over the last six months, I can confirm that he has always

:01:30.:01:34.

been fast that he is in his courtesy. Courteous to a fold in his

:01:35.:01:42.

dealings with the chair. Secondly, I think sometimes people not quite

:01:43.:01:54.

with these circumstances or perhaps lacking experience, but anxious to

:01:55.:01:58.

execute their duties in the most zealous way are on the side of

:01:59.:02:02.

caution. That cost and sometimes make them think that it is easier to

:02:03.:02:08.

say no man to say yes. I was not there and I make no criticism of any

:02:09.:02:14.

individual, but personally I am very sympathetic to the honourable

:02:15.:02:17.

gentleman, I think it is very regrettable that he has had to bring

:02:18.:02:22.

the matter to the house. I think we will have to leave it there for

:02:23.:02:28.

today. Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker, there was announcement on

:02:29.:02:34.

Saturday as saying that everyone, will be given a legal light to

:02:35.:02:39.

request a 10 megabits a broadband connection. This isn't issue of

:02:40.:02:43.

importance for many businesses and people. Yet, no details were given

:02:44.:02:52.

about how this will be exercised and who will deliver it, and who will

:02:53.:02:57.

fund it. Can you advise me Mr Speaker, rather you have noticed

:02:58.:03:05.

this subject or whether it is in order for government to be and

:03:06.:03:12.

unaccountable press release? Let me say that the subject is not new. It

:03:13.:03:20.

has been extensively debated over a period of. The question of the

:03:21.:03:23.

adequacy or the superfast broadband access in urban areas and rural

:03:24.:03:30.

areas. It seems to me that the distinction is between disclosing a

:03:31.:03:35.

basic intent, and describing a detailed policy. There is nothing

:03:36.:03:41.

particular and usual about the speeches around the country and

:03:42.:03:45.

outside of the house, giving and indication on what they intend to.

:03:46.:03:51.

If however, the government has is Pacific policy, which it proposes to

:03:52.:03:59.

roll out that is different from what is existing, the house should be the

:04:00.:04:03.

first to hear the policy and have the opportunity to question the

:04:04.:04:11.

Minister upon it. I think, we have reached the happy conclusion of

:04:12.:04:19.

point of order for today. I heard of somebody suggested that there was a

:04:20.:04:23.

business question. Well, we will move to the main business, I think

:04:24.:04:28.

to the programme a motion. Question The isn't that the Scotland bill

:04:29.:04:34.

number two on the order paper... Does the honourable zone to men wish

:04:35.:04:46.

to I rate? I indeed. Thank you Mr Speaker, we are profoundly

:04:47.:04:51.

disappointed with the time that was available to discuss information for

:04:52.:04:59.

the Scotland bill. There are over 100 amendments that you selected

:05:00.:05:08.

this afternoon. That follows the 76 page document of amendments that

:05:09.:05:12.

have been submitted from honourable members and of right honourable

:05:13.:05:18.

members across this house. Mr Speaker, we have about two and a

:05:19.:05:22.

half hours to debate the critical amendments on taxpayers and on the

:05:23.:05:27.

Constitution. After that, we will probably have no less than two hours

:05:28.:05:32.

to discuss the equally significant and imported welfare, and the rest

:05:33.:05:36.

of the whole bill. We know how this place works, there will be divisions

:05:37.:05:43.

and 20 minutes with this 18th-century practice. We are just

:05:44.:05:49.

wondering when this house will start to enter into the 21st-century and

:05:50.:06:01.

leave the 18th-century. How can this possibly be right that we have such

:06:02.:06:06.

little time? Realistically we will only have about four hours maybe

:06:07.:06:10.

three and a half. That as a little more than honourable member would

:06:11.:06:15.

get, don't they know that this is 45 minutes. Madam Deputy figure,

:06:16.:06:28.

Scotland is watching this proceedings. They do not understand

:06:29.:06:37.

the this respect. We feel like Scotland has been giving a slap in

:06:38.:06:41.

the face and told just to get on with it for whatever time this house

:06:42.:06:48.

scenes the fit. Order! Order! The honourable sentiment is making some

:06:49.:06:52.

extremely important point. He needs to be heard, he does need to be

:06:53.:06:56.

heard. Not just outside of the chamber but inside this chamber.

:06:57.:07:03.

Members will be quite a body speaks. Scotland is watching, they cannot

:07:04.:07:07.

believe that we have been giving such a limited amount of time to

:07:08.:07:12.

debate these critical and important amendment. That thing is, we have

:07:13.:07:18.

had four days, we were surprised that we had all of this time. But

:07:19.:07:24.

what a supreme loop waste of time. With a government that was semi and

:07:25.:07:29.

gays in that debate. There bought 100 of amendments provided to the

:07:30.:07:34.

government. They provided nothing and no specific commitments of their

:07:35.:07:40.

own. They were in the reflecting states, and was more reflective than

:07:41.:07:45.

the sock over the summer. The one thing that he did not do was

:07:46.:07:51.

properly engaged this house. The committee stage of a bill... The

:07:52.:08:02.

committee stage of this house should be the place the MMS are properly

:08:03.:08:07.

debated, and considered, with the government engaged in the process.

:08:08.:08:12.

And is not good enough to come here with hundreds of amendments and have

:08:13.:08:18.

a limited time to actually consider the bill. It sells great disrespect

:08:19.:08:25.

to this house and is not how you do business. We are at the committee

:08:26.:08:30.

stage of this whole house, it is nothing other than a resting

:08:31.:08:35.

exercised. We have to calibrate how we do business in this house. And is

:08:36.:08:39.

not good enough that we spent all this time wanting to be listened to

:08:40.:08:44.

and do not get enough time to discuss the amendments that are

:08:45.:08:49.

important. We have hundreds of amendments that the government

:08:50.:08:54.

decided to get engaged in this process, they told us that they are

:08:55.:08:59.

necessary and that we need them. All of a sudden today, with this limited

:09:00.:09:06.

amount of time available to us than there are hundreds of amendments on

:09:07.:09:11.

the order paper. We will no longer have the opportunity to properly

:09:12.:09:14.

scrutinize what the government has brought to this house today. Madam

:09:15.:09:17.

Deputy Speaker, we still do not believe that the commission has been

:09:18.:09:22.

delivered. What we are having today in terms of these amendments, to

:09:23.:09:31.

make sure that we get them delivered. Even if it was, this bill

:09:32.:09:36.

is still significantly behind, where the Scottish people are in terms of

:09:37.:09:39.

what they want from the constitutional arrangements from our

:09:40.:09:44.

nation. This is only the start of a catch-up process. . Wind of these

:09:45.:09:56.

gods, but instead of a whingeing about the process, and wasting time

:09:57.:10:00.

on this, why does he not sit down and have a cancel the debate debate

:10:01.:10:20.

plays. I am not giving away to the silly audibles her bosom and once

:10:21.:10:23.

again. Madam Deputy Speaker, what a sham of a process of this has proven

:10:24.:10:30.

to be. On a point of order. It is a complete disgrace for him to accuse

:10:31.:10:34.

people of attacking Scotland when all they are doing, is commenting on

:10:35.:10:40.

his blue Chris tactics, him personally. Not the debug Scotland

:10:41.:10:46.

the honourable gentleman knows that this is not a point of order. I hope

:10:47.:10:53.

that since the honourable gentleman has pointed out that there is only a

:10:54.:10:58.

small amount of time available for this debate, that I hope that we

:10:59.:11:02.

consume come to the debate itself and that the. I want the house to

:11:03.:11:14.

understand the rage that is felt by myself and my honourable friend

:11:15.:11:17.

about the limited amount of time that we have been given. I also want

:11:18.:11:22.

to ensure the house, then we are not looking to have this bill certified

:11:23.:11:29.

as English only, even though the government consider that to be in

:11:30.:11:35.

English only bill. We do not want it to be certified as God is only. This

:11:36.:11:40.

the bill applies exclusively to Scotland. I hope that in a few short

:11:41.:11:44.

hours that we had that English members will remember that because

:11:45.:11:49.

of this is and how they are voting, listen to the voice of God as

:11:50.:11:52.

members of parliament when it comes to the. And is not good enough to

:11:53.:11:56.

turn up the minute you will have a debate on Scottish business and this

:11:57.:12:01.

new age of English votes for English laws. He we want this bill to be

:12:02.:12:07.

discussed and debated properly. We won't be calling a vote in this

:12:08.:12:10.

programme, which even though I think the house smells, because it does

:12:11.:12:15.

pick up time away from a. Madam Deputy Speaker,... Does my

:12:16.:12:22.

honourable friend agree that one of the road ironies is that after this

:12:23.:12:26.

debate this builder move to the House of Lords will and will take

:12:27.:12:29.

weeks or possibly months for scrutiny. I'm grateful to my out of

:12:30.:12:37.

her friend because that is exactly what happened. The minute that the

:12:38.:12:42.

leave this house and it goes to the unelected chamber of donors, it is

:12:43.:12:50.

other disgraced. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Secretary of State

:12:51.:12:56.

things that this bill held the people of Scotland he is mistaken.

:12:57.:13:02.

Scotland is a more confident and assertive nation and it will never

:13:03.:13:06.

stop asking for more responsibility. Might Deputy Speaker, this guide is

:13:07.:13:09.

a more confident and assertive nation and it will never stop asking

:13:10.:13:11.

for more responsibility. Madam Deputy Speaker,... Thank you very

:13:12.:13:24.

much Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not want the house either. I hope it

:13:25.:13:29.

does not turn to dust the butt and I agree with the member, not on the

:13:30.:13:35.

content, but it seems to me that the attitude has started with the

:13:36.:13:38.

particular debate. I think it is one thing that is worth putting on the

:13:39.:13:42.

record. We've been a lot of time with offices and the usual channels

:13:43.:13:48.

and the web, I understand that there was and agreement that this will be

:13:49.:13:55.

the way that is why we are here. We would like some more time in this

:13:56.:13:59.

chamber. Unfortunately that is not what will happen. Given that the

:14:00.:14:04.

government has accepted most of our amendment. And the fact that the

:14:05.:14:12.

Scottish Parliament has moved toward the room movement of the Beatles and

:14:13.:14:18.

these... We think that it has been delivered. We agree some of the

:14:19.:14:21.

Government amendments and the government has come forward with

:14:22.:14:24.

their amendments and agree that some of those. I think we should get on

:14:25.:14:30.

with the debate this afternoon and start to discuss some of these

:14:31.:14:35.

issues and perhaps we will see whether or not the house agrees. The

:14:36.:14:42.

kernel of this argument is around having enough time to debate

:14:43.:14:48.

effectively all of the details and this very comprehensive bill. There

:14:49.:14:56.

must have been some deal about this. Will become to English devolution

:14:57.:14:59.

and come back to the local government bill that actually look

:15:00.:15:08.

and thereafter, because they're more may be more devolution bills

:15:09.:15:12.

pertaining to Scotland and Ireland, there is a mixture of time that we

:15:13.:15:15.

use the floor to be open and transparent and allow all members to

:15:16.:15:19.

get involved. But there is a period in time with the committee upstairs,

:15:20.:15:33.

the detail is taking place upstairs for every member satisfaction. Madam

:15:34.:15:41.

Deputy Speaker I am not going to detain the house because I do not

:15:42.:15:47.

want to get into the time available to debate. I acknowledge the

:15:48.:15:55.

honourable member's anger. He is always angry at something. We have

:15:56.:16:03.

had this sort of stuck in the newspapers and Scotland, the

:16:04.:16:06.

honourable gentleman called the members of the house of commons and

:16:07.:16:10.

to be nicer to him and we will try, but he does make it a bit difficult.

:16:11.:16:16.

It is clear to me Madam Deputy Speaker, that if the honourable

:16:17.:16:21.

gentleman is anger is not directed at me or this house and is directed

:16:22.:16:24.

at the people of Scotland because they have voted decisively to remain

:16:25.:16:28.

in the United Kingdom and that is something that he just cannot

:16:29.:16:36.

accept. The question is, the Scotland bill programme at number

:16:37.:16:45.

two motion as on the order paper, say Ayes, on the contrary say noes.

:16:46.:16:52.

The Ayes have it, the Ayes have it. We will not proceed to redo orders

:16:53.:16:57.

of the day. Scotland bill has amended the committee of the whole

:16:58.:17:00.

house to be considered a. We begin with government view clause 12 which

:17:01.:17:08.

it will be convenient to consider the new clauses and amendments

:17:09.:17:16.

listed on the selection paper. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe

:17:17.:17:19.

that this is a significant day for Scotland move the public debate

:17:20.:17:24.

about our countries future some questions of Constitution process

:17:25.:17:27.

and onto the real business of using power to improve peoples lives. The

:17:28.:17:31.

governmental amendments which I would like to outline today will

:17:32.:17:34.

strengthen the Scotland bill provision provision and clarify its

:17:35.:17:39.

agreements. With that done, it will be done -- time for it Scotland to

:17:40.:17:50.

be success for everybody. The government has engaged while he was

:17:51.:17:54.

interested parties and Scotland to help people understand the bill and

:17:55.:17:58.

listen to their views. We have discussed the causes with the

:17:59.:18:01.

described as government and the committees for both Scottish and

:18:02.:18:06.

this Parliament. There were suggestions on how to improve the

:18:07.:18:12.

drafting of provisions. A number of technical amendments were proposed

:18:13.:18:15.

to ensure that the build of all the powers. As well as a range of

:18:16.:18:20.

substantial arrangements which put beyond doubt that the bill fully

:18:21.:18:24.

delivers the Smith commission agreement. Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:18:25.:18:30.

would like to move the amendments to part one of the bill. We will

:18:31.:18:34.

discuss important amendments on welfare and other parts of the bill

:18:35.:18:38.

later today. Welding on discussions of the Scottish Parliament

:18:39.:18:44.

committee, I am bringing for new clause 12, and amendment 34. The new

:18:45.:18:51.

clause removed the words recognised as and makes clear that the Scottish

:18:52.:18:56.

Parliament and Scottish Government are Parliament institutions which it

:18:57.:18:59.

will take a vote by the people of Scotland in a referendum ever to

:19:00.:19:05.

abolish. This amendment put beyond all doubt that as the prime

:19:06.:19:09.

ministers have said, but it's devolution is woven into the fabric

:19:10.:19:14.

of our United Kingdom. New clause 13 is a technical provision that

:19:15.:19:18.

ensures that the legislative competence is fair to the Scottish,

:19:19.:19:27.

met -- transferred. It is transferred to this Scottish

:19:28.:19:30.

ministers and relation to that area. It will minimise the need for the

:19:31.:19:34.

Scottish Parliament to make separate changes to legislation after

:19:35.:19:41.

commencement of the bill. Amendment 81, 130 - 132 are consequential

:19:42.:19:49.

amendments to new clause 13. Clause 31 will deliver to the Parliament.

:19:50.:20:00.

It was inserted by clause five of the bill. New subsection to be will

:20:01.:20:06.

enable Scottish ministers to make in order for the aid date for the

:20:07.:20:17.

Scottish Parliament election. Government amendment 36 and 44 - 45

:20:18.:20:24.

clarify what is meant by combined elections. Amendment 36 makes clear

:20:25.:20:30.

that the reservations of the government campaign expenditure by

:20:31.:20:33.

political parties apply where there are overlapping regulator periods

:20:34.:20:38.

even if the actual polls take place on different days. Amendment 44-46

:20:39.:20:46.

and sort consistency of language throughout the bill. Amendment

:20:47.:20:54.

hundred and 31 inserts a reference to clause three and has a effect of

:20:55.:21:03.

applying schedule 32 and of legislative Scotland Act 2010 to

:21:04.:21:07.

anything that is exercisable within competence for that clause. The new

:21:08.:21:13.

wording and amendment 37 makes it clear that the Scottish Parliament

:21:14.:21:17.

will have permission and duties that when reporting on the delivering of

:21:18.:21:21.

its functions and relation to elections the Scottish Parliament.

:21:22.:21:28.

Minor amendments 38 and 39 injured as minister has power to make

:21:29.:21:32.

provision on the Parliament. And that they are in line with the

:21:33.:21:36.

competence of the Scottish Parliament in this area. Amendment

:21:37.:21:41.

40, is a minor chance to the subordinate legislation powers of

:21:42.:21:46.

his Scottish ministers with the extent of the reservations of the

:21:47.:21:52.

digital concerns. The distal service which I've set said to as service is

:21:53.:22:01.

the white service is to process information for applications. It is

:22:02.:22:04.

used to process applications to process applications of the

:22:05.:22:10.

registers G B elections as well as the EU parliamentary election.

:22:11.:22:15.

Amendment 41 and 40 to ensure that the power in clause five to specify

:22:16.:22:21.

a new date for and ordinary Scottish parliamentary election works with

:22:22.:22:24.

the existing power to propose to move the date. Amendment 43 has the

:22:25.:22:31.

same purpose as of the section of the clause it for places. To enable

:22:32.:22:37.

Scottish ministers to exercise concurrently with the Secretary of

:22:38.:22:41.

State so that subordinate legislative making functions

:22:42.:22:46.

relating to the individual election services which other remains

:22:47.:22:53.

reserved. Scottish ministers will ask a size functions and make

:22:54.:22:56.

regulations about additional service. Amendments 47 - 66 to

:22:57.:23:06.

clarify rules on majority. They are consequential but draw attention to

:23:07.:23:09.

the house and the three main amendments and the house. He --

:23:10.:23:18.

group -- 60. Rather than assessing the provisions of the bill more

:23:19.:23:23.

generally. Amendment 50 has the affect that a bill passed with a

:23:24.:23:32.

simple majority and respect that a simple majority must be reconsidered

:23:33.:23:35.

by the Scottish Parliament before being submitted for were listed. I

:23:36.:23:42.

consider that it is important that his Scottish Parliament has the

:23:43.:23:46.

opportunity to reconsider the bill in this scenario. Circumstances may

:23:47.:23:50.

have chances the bill was first passed. Amendment 60 probably

:23:51.:23:54.

consequential means that requirements regarding the final

:23:55.:23:58.

stage for the bill and for approval of the bill for reconsideration

:23:59.:24:02.

should be treated as the passing of the bill, and applied regardless of

:24:03.:24:07.

the grounds for reconsideration. Government amendment 62-69 deliver

:24:08.:24:11.

new powers to the Scottish Parliament in relation to the

:24:12.:24:16.

arrangements and operations of the ScottishPower and government. In

:24:17.:24:19.

response to the amendments made in committee stage in discussions with

:24:20.:24:23.

the Scottish Government. This includes powers and relation to the

:24:24.:24:27.

dating of Royal assent, the form and nature of statements made by the

:24:28.:24:35.

presiding officers, let us have appointments to the Scottish

:24:36.:24:38.

Government and the Queens printer for Scotland. These amendments

:24:39.:24:42.

extend far-reaching powers of the arrangements made for the Scottish

:24:43.:24:49.

Parliament and government, already provided by clause 12 and number of

:24:50.:24:53.

amendments made at the committee stage and by the SMP today.

:24:54.:24:58.

I am various grateful to the secretary of state coming to the

:24:59.:25:04.

government amendments. I wonder if he can provide clarity to the House

:25:05.:25:08.

of the guards to the new amendments and whether that with regard to the

:25:09.:25:16.

Mac require any current context? The Trade Union Bill is still under

:25:17.:25:20.

discussion in this house and it is a bill that has been finalised by this

:25:21.:25:29.

house and the other place which will determine the nature of any

:25:30.:25:32.

legislative consent motion which is required which is the normal

:25:33.:25:36.

practice in such matters. Madam Deputy Speaker, the amendments I

:25:37.:25:39.

have tabled today the fill my commitment to reflect on the debate

:25:40.:25:46.

at committee and it is a bit rich to be good-sized bowl for taking no

:25:47.:25:50.

amendments and then in the same breath lodging too many amendments.

:25:51.:25:55.

We did the committee process seriously, we took the contribution

:25:56.:26:01.

by the devolved powers committee in the Scottish Parliament very

:26:02.:26:03.

seriously and that is determined our thinking and launching these

:26:04.:26:07.

amendments. We will hear now the case for other nongovernment

:26:08.:26:13.

commitments, but the House will not be surprised that the government

:26:14.:26:17.

still considers the full fiscal autonomy as not in the interest of

:26:18.:26:21.

the people of Scotland. I believe that Scotland's parties rather than

:26:22.:26:24.

be running the referendum need to work together to understand how the

:26:25.:26:28.

powers in the bill will be used for the benefit of the people of

:26:29.:26:31.

Scotland. The UK government is honouring its commitment in the

:26:32.:26:36.

Edinburgh agreement, excepting the result of the referendum and moving

:26:37.:26:39.

forward to give the Scottish Parliament significant new powers

:26:40.:26:42.

within our United Kingdom. I'm beg to move the amendments in my name.

:26:43.:26:52.

Is very nice to be back here talking about Scottish old, performance of

:26:53.:26:57.

Scottish Parliament and that the government. May I? The first time I

:26:58.:27:06.

have been heckled from the quark's table but I'm sure will not be the

:27:07.:27:11.

last. Desk clerk's table. There is one thing that does concern me,

:27:12.:27:15.

Madam Deputy Speaker as much as I welcome the devolution to Scotland,

:27:16.:27:20.

as much as I envy the devolution that the Scottish people have

:27:21.:27:23.

achieved, because of the hard work of people like Donald and the

:27:24.:27:34.

convention of cottage citizens. Even the 2012 Scotland at and now this

:27:35.:27:42.

act, there are those of us who represent constituents in England

:27:43.:27:45.

who would kill for 1% of the affected devolution that have gone

:27:46.:27:50.

to Scotland and I congratulate the Scottish people for their efforts

:27:51.:27:56.

and where they got to. But I hope we will be coming very soon to how

:27:57.:28:00.

England can learn some of the lessons of Scottish devolution

:28:01.:28:04.

because it has taught many of us many lessons and I will perhaps

:28:05.:28:12.

touch on some of the devolution packages that are now appearing in

:28:13.:28:17.

England copy they do look very puny and weak compared to the proper

:28:18.:28:26.

devolution that is now taken root right rightly in Scotland. My

:28:27.:28:32.

anxiety, one that I would like to mention, Madam Deputy Speaker, is

:28:33.:28:38.

about the July patient. It is not -- centre the July patient. It is not

:28:39.:28:48.

if they go from Whitehall to Holyrood and stay there somewhat

:28:49.:28:55.

argue, perhaps not used as efficiently as they could be, but

:28:56.:28:59.

when the powers... If the honourable gentleman would allow me to make my

:29:00.:29:04.

case I would happily give way. At Wednesday at Holyrood, and do not

:29:05.:29:12.

filter down to lower tiers, perhaps local government in Scotland, but

:29:13.:29:16.

above all to the Scottish people themselves and their communities and

:29:17.:29:21.

their neighbourhoods. Exchanging centre libation from Whitehall and

:29:22.:29:26.

Westminster to Holyrood is not the bargain that many of us thought that

:29:27.:29:31.

we had intensive devolution in Scotland. I am will very likely give

:29:32.:29:38.

way to the honourable member. I am grateful for you giving way. If he

:29:39.:29:41.

was paying attention he will recognise that the Scottish

:29:42.:29:46.

Government has brought forward proposals for further devolution to

:29:47.:29:48.

Ireland communities. With the Scottish Government came to power,

:29:49.:29:52.

one of the first things we did was remove the vast amount of ring

:29:53.:29:56.

fencing that constrained the what 30s. It is the previous labour

:29:57.:30:01.

administration at was guilty of centralisation not the Scottish

:30:02.:30:06.

Government that we have today. Is always good to hear of examples

:30:07.:30:10.

further devolution and I say more power to those who want to double

:30:11.:30:17.

devolved. The more that that happens, the more that those of us

:30:18.:30:21.

and the other nations of the union can learn the examples and see that

:30:22.:30:26.

happening. I would just very gently worn the honourable member that it

:30:27.:30:34.

is no good always going back to times before his party controlled

:30:35.:30:41.

and runs the Scottish Parliament with powers that are unheard of in

:30:42.:30:46.

the rest of the Union. Powers that should be spread to the rest of the

:30:47.:30:51.

union. There has to be a point where those powers are clearly being used

:30:52.:30:56.

by other than complaining about powers that people would like to

:30:57.:31:02.

have or to not use and powers that we ought to be having rather than

:31:03.:31:06.

the ones that are there to be used at the moment. I think that is a

:31:07.:31:10.

really important lesson for all of us who believe in devolution that we

:31:11.:31:18.

need to push these things for -- further. Why is it the case that my

:31:19.:31:22.

good friends in the Scottish National Party have not supported

:31:23.:31:27.

further amendments and proposed further amendments on making sure

:31:28.:31:32.

that local government itself in Scotland in this case can go further

:31:33.:31:36.

and can run much more of its own affairs. Why is it... I will give

:31:37.:31:45.

way to the honourable gentleman. I think the right honourable member

:31:46.:31:48.

for giving way and as always he is making a very coherent argument on

:31:49.:31:53.

his expertise in positives in all matters. Would he not agree with me

:31:54.:31:55.

that this is often a 2-stage process, the first Dean of devolved

:31:56.:32:00.

power to the Scottish Parliament and then to further devolved powers with

:32:01.:32:04.

the powers that it has been given to Ireland and other communities as it

:32:05.:32:09.

has already done so. I think it is important that we see it in stages.

:32:10.:32:15.

I mentioned earlier that the devolution proposals for England

:32:16.:32:19.

have made a start but there may be another couple of bills necessary in

:32:20.:32:24.

this Parliament before we really see what devolution in England looks

:32:25.:32:29.

like. But there has to be a point where the powers that have already

:32:30.:32:33.

been devolved can be used and can't be pushed beyond the Scottish

:32:34.:32:37.

Parliament down to people on the ground. That is why for example I

:32:38.:32:45.

have proposed, and I did not hear a great deal of support for ensuring

:32:46.:32:49.

that local government in Scotland can, if the people in the area

:32:50.:32:53.

consent, raise their own taxation, if they went over people to do that

:32:54.:32:59.

then they should be enabled to rave of taxation. I will give way in just

:33:00.:33:05.

a moment. So that people in the area, if they are convinced of the

:33:06.:33:11.

need for epic particular tags in a particular area, I often refer to my

:33:12.:33:15.

own cave in Nottingham where we will buy to my own cave in Nottingham

:33:16.:33:19.

where we will, a tourist tax or bed tax in order to do good works,

:33:20.:33:25.

providing people in the local area consent and agree that yellow I

:33:26.:33:29.

think the honourable gentleman for giving way but does he not see that

:33:30.:33:32.

the whole point of devolution is that those decisions should be made

:33:33.:33:38.

by the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood who are already carrying

:33:39.:33:40.

through the community and Parliament act. It is not for this plays to

:33:41.:33:44.

tell the Scottish Parliament what to do with the power that is the bald

:33:45.:33:49.

or else it is not devolved. I cannot speak for this faith I can only give

:33:50.:33:55.

a personal opinion which is yes copy you have heard me say how important

:33:56.:33:58.

it is that powers our devolved to the Scottish Parliament, would as a

:33:59.:34:04.

Democrat I would like to see powers DeVault out of Whitehall to the

:34:05.:34:09.

areas in England for example and onto the ground. Even in my own case

:34:10.:34:15.

to go beyond the Nottingham city Council good as it is, down to the

:34:16.:34:21.

areas, localities. It is not a case of someone telling someone to do

:34:22.:34:25.

this. It is a case of if you'd leave in devolution and I can understand

:34:26.:34:29.

the national feeling devolution is not something they want because it

:34:30.:34:35.

undermines the nationalist epic. But it is perfectly valid position to

:34:36.:34:41.

have, nothing to be ashamed of, but nationalism is not localism and you

:34:42.:34:49.

need... I will give way to the honourable gentleman in a second. If

:34:50.:34:54.

you believe in localism, if you believe as I have put down in an

:34:55.:35:00.

amendment in subsidiary in this am pushing power possible levels you

:35:01.:35:04.

cannot stop with nationalism. Cannot stop with just the nation state, you

:35:05.:35:11.

have to have a whole view about how power can go to the people rather

:35:12.:35:17.

than merely to another elected that of people in the Scottish Parliament

:35:18.:35:23.

which can believe it or not, feel as remote I am sure to some people at

:35:24.:35:29.

the federal Parliament here supplied in Scotland less than 2% of money

:35:30.:35:34.

provided to local authorities is ring based in England it is nearly

:35:35.:35:37.

10%. We should not be having this discussion about Scotland being more

:35:38.:35:41.

centralised than England because it is not the case. Of the honourable

:35:42.:35:45.

member talk about the Scotland bill rather than devolution to England? I

:35:46.:35:49.

can see why it is sensitive that I discussed these issues that got us

:35:50.:35:53.

members of the National Party would rather not talk about. I am going to

:35:54.:36:02.

talk about them because, just let me answer your colleague's question

:36:03.:36:05.

then I'll answer you. It is not just as I have said before the property

:36:06.:36:11.

of people in this cottage National Party or even -- cottage National

:36:12.:36:25.

Party -- Scottish national party... If the honourable gentleman goes on

:36:26.:36:29.

about devolution to England, there's not even in an amendment to his name

:36:30.:36:32.

on this issue. When can we get back to debating the Scotland bill with

:36:33.:36:37.

these the dividend amendment in this bill? I understand the point of the

:36:38.:36:43.

honourable gentleman is making in a taken very seriously. I have been

:36:44.:36:46.

listening very carefully to the Abul gentleman who is -- honourable

:36:47.:36:51.

gentleman who is adjusting points which are relevant to the precise

:36:52.:36:55.

matters before us and the amendment and new clauses before us in a

:36:56.:37:01.

general way. But I am sure the honourable gentleman will accept the

:37:02.:37:09.

feeling of the House that while it is interesting and generally

:37:10.:37:13.

relevant to discuss these matters in general and as a point of academic

:37:14.:37:17.

interest, it is also important that they should be time in the debate

:37:18.:37:21.

for the very many amendment and new clauses that are before us. So I am

:37:22.:37:25.

not sopping the honourable gentleman, but I am trusting him to

:37:26.:37:31.

know when he will drive marks to a conclusion. -- draw his remarks to a

:37:32.:37:42.

conclusion that light perhaps the honourable gentleman is a little

:37:43.:37:44.

anxious as he is now part of the establishment in this place, used to

:37:45.:37:47.

having the privilege of unlimited time to talk to the House, many of

:37:48.:37:52.

us do not have that and we are very jealous of him when he gets up to

:37:53.:37:59.

speak for link, but I am rather supplies at being stopped from

:38:00.:38:02.

entering the question of his honourable friend that I was in the

:38:03.:38:05.

middle of doing. I am also broader there is the bride did not read the

:38:06.:38:09.

order paper because he was the gas rather surprised he did not read the

:38:10.:38:12.

order paper because he will see for in my name. If he takes the time to

:38:13.:38:16.

look at those rather than repeating the speech he has made on previous

:38:17.:38:19.

days he would be better informed on that. Being very careful to stay

:38:20.:38:24.

close to my amendment which are obviously in order of the new

:38:25.:38:31.

clauses, raising money locally, being enabled to raise money locally

:38:32.:38:35.

I think is very important for all our localities and is a symptom of

:38:36.:38:42.

being freed more from Whitehall and Westminster so that this place and

:38:43.:38:47.

Whitehall does what it should do and our perspective nations can govern

:38:48.:38:53.

themselves as much as is absolutely appropriate which they do not

:38:54.:38:58.

currently do, and Colman is leading the way on showing us how to do

:38:59.:39:00.

that. -- Gotland is leading the way. Is about making sure that all must

:39:01.:39:13.

share the benefits of devolution while we remain together I hope we

:39:14.:39:18.

will in the union. I would give way to the honourable gentleman but I

:39:19.:39:23.

give way to the honourable in. He has just said this is not just about

:39:24.:39:28.

Gotland, this is the Scotland bill. Please can we does that Scotland. I

:39:29.:39:36.

know it is difficult to except sometimes when one looks at 1's own

:39:37.:39:42.

propaganda that in fact it is only ever about the Scottish National

:39:43.:39:45.

Party. The truth of the matter is the Scotland bill has in blacks on

:39:46.:39:49.

the rest of the union. We really have impact on the rest of the Union

:39:50.:39:53.

and those of us that will benefit or suffer from matters related to

:39:54.:39:58.

Scotland have a right to express a view and if there was a slightly

:39:59.:40:02.

more outgoing sharing of learning and experience from some colleagues

:40:03.:40:06.

on the Scottish National Party I think there would be more friends

:40:07.:40:12.

want from those of us who very strongly believe in devolution in

:40:13.:40:15.

the other nations of the United Kingdom. I will give way to my

:40:16.:40:22.

honourable friend. I just wondered if the honourable gentleman will see

:40:23.:40:25.

the irony that we voted through English wellspring was lost over

:40:26.:40:29.

created second-class MPs were those of us that come from Scotland. Be we

:40:30.:40:33.

can't fully represent our constituents in this place and here

:40:34.:40:40.

we have the situation that Scotland and 56 SNP MPs with a clear mandate

:40:41.:40:43.

to deliver home rule for Scotland and we are not getting with the

:40:44.:40:46.

Scottish people want because MPs from other parts of the United

:40:47.:40:49.

Kingdom are voting against our interest. We should be having

:40:50.:40:53.

Scottish votes for Scottish laws in this place. I have sympathy for what

:40:54.:41:01.

the honourable gentleman is staying in the generality of what you think

:41:02.:41:06.

but I have to remind him that there was a Scottish referendum and that I

:41:07.:41:09.

understand that majority of Scottish people voted Tuesday in the union.

:41:10.:41:18.

There was a general election, indeed there was a general election. The

:41:19.:41:26.

honourable gentleman from a sedentary position asked me how we

:41:27.:41:28.

got on, there were 50% of Scottish people who voted against the

:41:29.:41:36.

Scottish National Party and unfortunately 50% of Scotland is

:41:37.:41:41.

represented by three numbers of Parliament. The honourable gentleman

:41:42.:41:46.

should relish his victory and he thoroughly deserves to have all the

:41:47.:41:53.

accolades appropriate, but I do ask the honourable gentleman to be a

:41:54.:41:57.

little careful that he does not become triumphant because 50% of

:41:58.:42:02.

cottage people being represented by three members of Parliament is not

:42:03.:42:06.

something his party should be proud of. I hope that the desire for

:42:07.:42:14.

proportional representation which suited the Scottish National Party

:42:15.:42:24.

for many years, now one he has very little, I am just winding up in a

:42:25.:42:28.

way the honourable gentleman may not approve of. Just getting my first

:42:29.:42:34.

wind in the honourable gentleman will allow. It is, I hope the

:42:35.:42:41.

Scottish National Party will not forget their commitment to

:42:42.:42:47.

proportional representation, just because first past the Post has

:42:48.:42:51.

delivered for them a growth disfigured distortion of how many is

:42:52.:42:58.

that width 56 members of Parliament representing happy population. Three

:42:59.:43:05.

members of Parliament representing the other half of the population. I

:43:06.:43:10.

hope that he felt that that is not an appropriate allocation and I hope

:43:11.:43:13.

the Scottish National Party renew their bigger when talking about

:43:14.:43:17.

proportional representation because it has gone rather why it on that

:43:18.:43:22.

subject. I will give weight. I thank my honourable friend for giving way.

:43:23.:43:26.

Does he detect that in a of interventions of the SND member they

:43:27.:43:29.

are purposely upbeat to talk about devolution down to the Scottish

:43:30.:43:32.

level but very keen and not to talk about devolution down to the more

:43:33.:43:35.

local levels on the kind of the local gentleman -- honourable

:43:36.:43:39.

gentleman is outlining and his contributions. I hope people even to

:43:40.:43:49.

haggle and shout with a I try to engage people from the Scottish

:43:50.:43:52.

National Party in debate on these issues. Sometimes they get they bit

:43:53.:43:58.

interesting and you did but that is because we all care passionately

:43:59.:44:02.

about the viewpoints we are putting over. I am trying to put my point of

:44:03.:44:06.

view over. It may be that within what appears to be a robotic

:44:07.:44:13.

monolithic goddess National Party -- goddess National Party that there

:44:14.:44:15.

may be shades of opinion where some people in the Scottish National

:44:16.:44:20.

Party say that perhaps other people do have a view and perhaps there is

:44:21.:44:23.

some resonance there rather than we just want to be told to do what the

:44:24.:44:30.

regular Monday beating does. I like to thank him for giving way. I take

:44:31.:44:33.

a different view to my honourable friend. I do not think that it is

:44:34.:44:40.

necessary, the point he makes. I think is that the SNP who are as my

:44:41.:44:44.

honourable friend said now the establishment in Scotland, are

:44:45.:44:48.

desperate to avoid any scrutiny of the way that they run the Scottish

:44:49.:44:53.

woman because what they want to do is blame everybody else, the wicked

:44:54.:44:56.

people down south where everything that goes wrong in that country stop

:44:57.:45:08.

. I know my honourable friend will be making that point and many others

:45:09.:45:12.

when it comes to the call to speak. Very directly on the order paper, my

:45:13.:45:18.

New Clause eight talks about defining, it is all right sitting at

:45:19.:45:26.

Holyrood and handing out legislature but that is exactly what Whitehall

:45:27.:45:29.

and Westminster does to everybody else. The Scottish people have

:45:30.:45:32.

suffered from that as much as being was people. One of the ways get

:45:33.:45:37.

around that is to define the competences of local government and

:45:38.:45:42.

national government, such that you cannot undertake when it suits you

:45:43.:45:51.

-- unpick the idea that powers should be devolved the on either

:45:52.:45:54.

Holyrood or Westminster. Unless it is written in such a way that is

:45:55.:46:01.

entrenched, you will find people inevitably find that the lore of

:46:02.:46:06.

power from the centre, telling people what to do whether it is

:46:07.:46:09.

Holyrood or Whitehall is all too strong. My New Clause, eight,

:46:10.:46:17.

actually says that people who want to engage in this debate should sit

:46:18.:46:22.

down and discuss with local government wherever it is what it is

:46:23.:46:26.

that is appropriate for local government to do. I do not think

:46:27.:46:30.

Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be immune

:46:31.:46:37.

from that year he that idea -- that theory, that idea that otherwise

:46:38.:46:42.

they will find the power to back up as them of my friends in Scotland

:46:43.:46:45.

are telling me it has become ever more centralised and no doubt that

:46:46.:46:49.

would be a matter of debate. But that is what people are saying and

:46:50.:46:53.

it may be that the easiest way around that is not to say we are

:46:54.:46:57.

very nice to people, we have been lying to people when we give them a

:46:58.:47:00.

little bit more money here and there, it actually to allow them the

:47:01.:47:10.

very drivers that produced... I give way to the honourable gentleman .dll

:47:11.:47:16.

he talks about devolving power. He talks about devolving power and as

:47:17.:47:21.

we know money is power. William for the permit for devolving prevention

:47:22.:47:23.

of business made locally, a policy which has evolved to the Scottish

:47:24.:47:27.

government that is not being mimicked in Scotland? The Scottish

:47:28.:47:34.

National Party and the conservative power together if they do good

:47:35.:47:41.

things in Dems are pushing power down or pushing finance down I am

:47:42.:47:43.

very happy to applaud them. What I am saying is that in order that what

:47:44.:47:49.

the centre give this Comedy Central can take it away. Order to avoid

:47:50.:47:55.

that we have to have this as a proper weight written settlement

:47:56.:48:00.

because there will be a time even if you do not think you are doing it

:48:01.:48:03.

now, there will be a time when that temptation to turn it around, suck

:48:04.:48:07.

power back, tell people what to do from the centre whether it is

:48:08.:48:11.

Holyrood or Whitehall or Westminster will overcome people even with the

:48:12.:48:24.

best parts. I give way to a. This is a United Kingdom billable to have

:48:25.:48:28.

impact on my constituents as well as others and I'll be delighted if the

:48:29.:48:35.

Clause that my friend is moving were able in somewhere to be taken from

:48:36.:48:38.

this bill into an English bill so that my counsel can protect my

:48:39.:48:44.

constituents and assume what the people of Scotland are doing for

:48:45.:48:50.

there. I welcome this bill. That is why knowing many of my parliamentary

:48:51.:48:56.

colleagues from Scotland I rely on their generosity of spirit to

:48:57.:49:00.

actually help those of us who are trying to do it evolved settlement

:49:01.:49:05.

in other parts of the union -- devolved settlement, not to pull up

:49:06.:49:10.

the job age, not to say that we have what we want -- Strawbridge. Now we

:49:11.:49:19.

have on the back of 50% of votes in our nation and we have 95% of the

:49:20.:49:25.

Steve, that is all OK. Now we are in control of the Scottish Parliament,

:49:26.:49:28.

not when to use the powers but we will set up power from local

:49:29.:49:32.

government. I know that is not where many of my colleagues parliamentary

:49:33.:49:36.

colleagues of Scotland was to be but they need to speak up. They need to

:49:37.:49:39.

make that clear in their internal meetings, inside their party, they

:49:40.:49:43.

need to be clear with people who are telling them leave it to eyes, we

:49:44.:49:49.

are the top dogs, do what you are told, show up, it is your ship, all

:49:50.:49:53.

that sort of stuff. We have it in every other party and evil will hope

:49:54.:49:57.

that there can be proper debates within parties so that all of the

:49:58.:50:05.

devolution here can move forward. It has to go beyond Scotland if you

:50:06.:50:09.

really believe in devolution you have to take it beyond the one area

:50:10.:50:15.

and I am happy to discuss and debate that with anybody. One of the areas

:50:16.:50:22.

that we need to talk about... I would be very happy to give way to

:50:23.:50:29.

the honourable member who is shouting. I am very happy to have

:50:30.:50:35.

shouting into speculating, it is the parliamentary equivalent of bidding

:50:36.:50:39.

at your opponent in the street. -- bidding at your opponent --

:50:40.:50:49.

I am not happy to have shouting and just make you a cent, but I will say

:50:50.:50:54.

to the honourable gentleman that sometimes when the House becomes a

:50:55.:51:02.

little the Severus is possibly an indication that when there is a

:51:03.:51:07.

limited amount of time per debate and the honourable gentleman does

:51:08.:51:12.

have four very important amendments down for discussion that he had

:51:13.:51:19.

taken a fair chunk of the time for the debate and as I said

:51:20.:51:23.

previously, I am not sopping him, he has the Lord, he is a senior and

:51:24.:51:27.

much respected member of the South and he will know himself when he had

:51:28.:51:32.

taken the right amount of time in this very short debate. I will go on

:51:33.:51:42.

if people allow me to. As always, there is not a person in this

:51:43.:51:46.

chamber who can say that I do not give way when people have a

:51:47.:51:50.

reopening of debate rather than just yelling from a sedentary position.

:51:51.:51:53.

That will continue to be my policy and I will not move from that

:51:54.:52:01.

whatever the provocation. The New Clause nine thoughts about

:52:02.:52:07.

subsidiarity brought to us from the former lady from indent or the

:52:08.:52:11.

master treaty. What it does and respectful this bill Madam Deputy

:52:12.:52:17.

Speaker is to enable us to define and keep a very clear view, a very

:52:18.:52:23.

clear perspective on what is local, what is regional, what is national

:52:24.:52:31.

and what is federal. That, I believe will actually help everybody,

:52:32.:52:34.

whichever country they are in within the union, will help everybody to

:52:35.:52:42.

actually sustain as well as when small victories here and there, to

:52:43.:52:46.

sustain a change in our democratic structure with will make it harder

:52:47.:52:51.

for those who wish to actually do away when they feel a convenience

:52:52.:52:59.

with any settlement. Part of the bill in front of as, Madam Deputy

:53:00.:53:05.

Speaker in my view relates very much to the rest of the United Kingdom.

:53:06.:53:11.

That is around the possibility of having a citizens convention rather

:53:12.:53:15.

modelled on the Scottish convention, where people throughout

:53:16.:53:20.

the whole of the United Kingdom can face some of these issues which are

:53:21.:53:24.

of great importance to us. I think the debate around evil was a day

:53:25.:53:31.

version. It was an irrelevant, it was a mere procedural issue and is

:53:32.:53:35.

very little to do with devolution and greater freedom for our people

:53:36.:53:41.

within the United Kingdom. I hope very much that we move on from where

:53:42.:53:51.

we are on Scottish devolution and where we are on the local Government

:53:52.:53:55.

Bill which is devolution in England and that we take these issues

:53:56.:54:00.

forward together. Working together, all parties, and making sure that

:54:01.:54:06.

there is a constitutional brother a citizen's convention on devolution

:54:07.:54:10.

so that we can't read some of the excellent things achieved by the

:54:11.:54:14.

Scottish people and by people like Donald Dewar and by those in the

:54:15.:54:20.

Scottish citizens convention and those that worked on the 2012 act,

:54:21.:54:25.

all those parties of the union that worked together to create the

:54:26.:54:32.

Scottish bill which is now before us, which quite rightly is the first

:54:33.:54:37.

bill for Parliament. I hope very much Madam Deputy Speaker, using

:54:38.:54:40.

that president that the first bill in the 2020 Parliament is a bill

:54:41.:54:46.

that brings devolution to all the nations of the union so that all the

:54:47.:54:52.

nations of the union can get the benefits which are rightly going to

:54:53.:54:55.

be enjoyed by the people in Scotland.

:54:56.:55:04.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to speak to New Clause one,

:55:05.:55:10.

which has been tabled by the Secretary of State, what he calls

:55:11.:55:14.

for independent commission of four fiscal autonomy. I have to say to

:55:15.:55:19.

him that there is a wealth of hypocrisy about this. He may not

:55:20.:55:23.

remember but on June the 15th, during the committee stage, I put

:55:24.:55:28.

forward an amendment to achieve immediate four fiscal autonomy. I

:55:29.:55:33.

was supported in that minute by the division lobbies cop, by the SNP and

:55:34.:55:39.

buy some colleagues. And the Labour Party on the June 15, if they have

:55:40.:55:44.

bolted with us, could have had full fiscal autonomy and I. They chose

:55:45.:55:49.

not to do it. I don't know whether they are embarrassed about that, but

:55:50.:55:56.

they now, will be shadow Secretary of State for shaking his head. He

:55:57.:56:01.

said he is not embarrassed. To produce and other talking shop,

:56:02.:56:06.

another Smith commission for fiscal autonomy. Knocking into the long

:56:07.:56:10.

grass, incidentally he says that no members of Parliament or members of

:56:11.:56:15.

the other place should serve on this. Indeed the Secretary of State

:56:16.:56:21.

should not appoint as a member of the commission and member who is a

:56:22.:56:28.

member of a party. This is a sort of process of thinking that somehow

:56:29.:56:32.

politicians said take decisions that as it is not statements of his

:56:33.:56:35.

disciples being of the nations, it is unelected commissions. What was

:56:36.:56:41.

such a commission meeting for many months tell us what we don't know

:56:42.:56:46.

already? The fact is that full fiscal autonomy is a well understood

:56:47.:56:52.

concept. It has to be part simplicity. I'm not going to repeat

:56:53.:56:56.

all the arguments I made in his favour on June the 15th, but the

:56:57.:57:01.

Labour Party could have had a. I give this prediction that at the

:57:02.:57:06.

general election, he did the Conservative Party in their

:57:07.:57:09.

manifesto, or the Labour Party will promise a full fiscal autonomy. I

:57:10.:57:13.

believe they have to do that because we will continue to be behind the

:57:14.:57:17.

curve. I was criticised by some of my colleagues who are being

:57:18.:57:23.

unhelpful on the 15th of. I think I was hopeful for the conservative

:57:24.:57:29.

cause of. Because it shows these some people in Scotland that there

:57:30.:57:33.

were Unionist politicians who valued the union. Who do believe in full

:57:34.:57:37.

fiscal autonomy and to believe it is the best way to stop the gradual

:57:38.:57:42.

slide towards independence. Because if we have a Scottish Parliament

:57:43.:57:52.

based on the Smith commission, which is involved highly complex

:57:53.:57:58.

procedures on tax and other matters. You are leading to a sense of

:57:59.:58:02.

grievance. The way to solve the grievance is to have a full fiscal

:58:03.:58:08.

autonomy immediately and the Scottish Parliament should tax the

:58:09.:58:13.

people, spend that money, and they are held responsible. At the

:58:14.:58:17.

Scottish National Party controls the Scottish Parliament, it is held

:58:18.:58:21.

responsible by the Scottish people. I would argue also that actually

:58:22.:58:25.

full fiscal autonomy is either more relevant and even more the arguments

:58:26.:58:31.

have had more in his favour since June the 15th for the debate that we

:58:32.:58:35.

have had. What is the objection to evil? The objection to evil is that

:58:36.:58:43.

we have these bonnet formula. Therefore they are not allowed to

:58:44.:58:46.

bar brawl stage of the bill. But a bill could change spending habits of

:58:47.:58:53.

the changes English, and automate it automatically changes Scottish

:58:54.:58:55.

spending. But Scottish members are Parliament are not allowed to vote

:58:56.:58:59.

at all stages of the bill. If he had full fiscal autonomy, if we did away

:59:00.:59:03.

with the Barnett formula, there will be need for... Get you on the

:59:04.:59:09.

bizarre methods would be foreign affairs and Defense. Foreign affairs

:59:10.:59:12.

and Defense account for a very large small proportion of total spending.

:59:13.:59:18.

I think the budget of the Foreign Office is .2% of GNP. Him of the is

:59:19.:59:27.

2%. The Foreign Office and is less than 2%. Would highly have any

:59:28.:59:33.

legislation, sometimes years passed without there being any legislation

:59:34.:59:36.

on the him of the or the Foreign Office. In the Scottish Parliament

:59:37.:59:41.

have full fiscal autonomy, therefore very effectively the only

:59:42.:59:45.

legislation that affected the Scottish people, there'll be no need

:59:46.:59:53.

evil. This whole debate around bonnet and evil which is gradually

:59:54.:59:59.

and endanger, I don't want to, but it will be used by our political

:00:00.:00:05.

opponents, they do oppose the giving end, they are entitled to make what

:00:06.:00:08.

arguments they like. They would use the debate around able to argue

:00:09.:00:16.

against the United Kingdom. I do indeed remember the members that he

:00:17.:00:19.

bought before the House in terms of full fiscal autonomy. He will also

:00:20.:00:23.

remember that the Shadow Chancellor also vote in the lobbies would be

:00:24.:00:28.

gentleman. Would he agree with me that it might be progress indeed for

:00:29.:00:32.

the Labour Party if we follow the party leadership on this matter to

:00:33.:00:40.

a? The wishing to have an interesting concept nowadays in the

:00:41.:00:44.

Labour Party. We have full fiscal, full freedom on the new ventures,

:00:45.:00:49.

and apparently their leader can oppose Labour Party policies. The

:00:50.:00:57.

Shadow Chancellor of others party policy on full fiscal autonomy. This

:00:58.:01:01.

is an interesting situation, that we live in. I think I have made my

:01:02.:01:08.

point. I do not believe that this is a genuine proposal from the shadow

:01:09.:01:12.

Secretary of State. He is going to tell me it is. I respect the right

:01:13.:01:18.

honourable gentleman immensely in this fight. B thinks back to the

:01:19.:01:21.

debate that we had on June the 15th, no one in this chamber from the SNP

:01:22.:01:27.

or his colleagues believed the figures is double board. Is an

:01:28.:01:35.

attempt to put some clarity and to those figures rather than that and

:01:36.:01:42.

?1 billion glycol. I don't want to get and all the debate about black

:01:43.:01:47.

old and the deficit in all the rest of the. I remember that I was

:01:48.:01:53.

intervened. And I said that should be transitional arrangements. I

:01:54.:01:55.

accepted that and made the point that this was not a bright wing Tory

:01:56.:02:03.

trap to trap the SNP. This was not a device to get rid of bonnet because

:02:04.:02:08.

we were claiming that the Scottish people get ?6,000 a year more. I

:02:09.:02:13.

precisely said it that if we had full fiscal autonomy, if bonnet was

:02:14.:02:19.

gotten rid of, we should retain the UK and the should be a grand formula

:02:20.:02:24.

based on these. If Scotland had a particular problem, we aren't United

:02:25.:02:35.

Kingdom Parliament. And we are a fraternal Parliament and I believe

:02:36.:02:38.

in the union and standing together. If there is a need for the UK, I

:02:39.:02:45.

then called at the Imperial Parliament see, helping our friends

:02:46.:02:50.

and whales. They don't like that word but I use that today. It is a

:02:51.:03:01.

technical term that if our friends need extra help from the UK

:03:02.:03:04.

Parliament, we should give that help. It should be based on needs,

:03:05.:03:09.

not this automatic formula based on the bonnet, which is a outmoded

:03:10.:03:15.

concept that says has outlived this time. I also said that it is very

:03:16.:03:21.

dangerous in the concept of the able debate, I'm glad that the Labour

:03:22.:03:28.

Party, I respect the Secretary of State, but they are making some

:03:29.:03:31.

progress in. I believe that they are still behind the curve. I don't

:03:32.:03:36.

think they ever going to get back in front of the curve in Scotland,

:03:37.:03:40.

unless they actually are bold. I say again to the point that I made back

:03:41.:03:46.

in June, that whether we like it or not, we have the election system

:03:47.:03:52.

that we have. We the Unionist parties, what the Scottish people,

:03:53.:03:57.

we based our arguments on the Smith commission and only 156 at a 59

:03:58.:04:01.

seats in Scotland. That is a system that we have. That is the

:04:02.:04:06.

parliamentary system that we live in. We have to accept that whether

:04:07.:04:09.

we like it or not, the Smith commission was rejected by the

:04:10.:04:17.

Scottish people. If we want to save the Union, and I am passionate about

:04:18.:04:22.

the union as he is, we cannot be behind the curve on this. We have to

:04:23.:04:27.

be a, we have to be bold, and I think we have to move with full

:04:28.:04:30.

fiscal autonomy, and move with it now. R Bross to speak to the

:04:31.:04:41.

amendments tabled in my name and proceedings which thus far of most

:04:42.:04:46.

eras of Scotland will view of a total travesty and a farce. We are

:04:47.:04:55.

told that this is a piece of legislation of amazing proportions

:04:56.:05:00.

and importance of. Yeah, there are tend back benches on the

:05:01.:05:03.

conservative side of the House and less than ten members of Parliament

:05:04.:05:07.

on the labour side of the House. What does it say about the Unionist

:05:08.:05:13.

party in this house, that they can even be bothered to turn up for a

:05:14.:05:18.

debate about something that they think is so important? We are

:05:19.:05:23.

debating the reports stage of the Scotland of today where there are

:05:24.:05:30.

200 or more amendments or new clauses before us. 200. Yet we have

:05:31.:05:35.

heard extended speeches about English local government and a whole

:05:36.:05:38.

series of other things, that have nothing to do with the Scotland bill

:05:39.:05:43.

or the proceedings which are before us today. The context of proceedings

:05:44.:05:48.

is clear to people listening and watching and Scotland. Firstly, a

:05:49.:05:55.

promise was made. Secondly, we heard today in and day out that the bald

:05:56.:06:01.

Macs will be delivered, even from Labour MPs of the time. We heard

:06:02.:06:07.

from the foreign -- former Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Near

:06:08.:06:11.

federalism. Within a year or two as close to a federal state can be. You

:06:12.:06:17.

can call this legislation many things. But it is not a charged for

:06:18.:06:25.

federalism. It is a long, long way way from that. We all know that the

:06:26.:06:29.

shortcomings have been that, notwithstanding the fact that they

:06:30.:06:33.

have been denied. But that being denied by the government site, but I

:06:34.:06:36.

cleared for pretty much anyone else who cares to look at the. Why do we

:06:37.:06:40.

know that? Because there are others who are not an political parties

:06:41.:06:44.

have said so. And they do have a vested interest from the Scottish

:06:45.:06:47.

trades Union Congress, the Scottish Council organization, care for

:06:48.:06:53.

Scotland. The cross party committee of the Scottish Parliament to have

:06:54.:06:59.

the obligation to look at this on which, we had senior Conservatives

:07:00.:07:03.

and Labour MSP serving. They said that these Scotland bill falls short

:07:04.:07:09.

in some critical areas. The Scotland bill does not meet the spirit or

:07:10.:07:15.

substance of the Smith commission recommendation. And required

:07:16.:07:19.

extensive or redrafting and other key areas. What about those who do

:07:20.:07:25.

have a political interest? Let's take the leader of the party of

:07:26.:07:30.

Scotland, Mr Alex Riley speaking on BBC radio Scotland on September the

:07:31.:07:35.

18th, 2015. I call from him, no is and no buts. Smith has not been

:07:36.:07:41.

delivered and we will stand shoulder to shoulder with SNP ministers to

:07:42.:07:47.

deliver Smith. How ironic. Where would the bushes today? Where were

:07:48.:07:50.

the speeches? Perhaps with the hidden leader. We have not heard one

:07:51.:07:55.

that reflects those realities. We should not lose sight of the fact

:07:56.:08:01.

that the Smith commission followed the referendum, and have as said in

:08:02.:08:06.

previous meetings of this house, debating the Scotland bill, that we

:08:07.:08:10.

recognise and respect the result of the referendum. And we didn't

:08:11.:08:14.

proceeded to work with the other political parties in the Smith

:08:15.:08:18.

commission, and we didn't want to the country and a general election.

:08:19.:08:23.

Like other political parties, we stood on a manifesto. The manifesto

:08:24.:08:28.

said as follow, we welcome the proposals set out in the Smith

:08:29.:08:32.

commission as far as did we go. Before further watering down of the

:08:33.:08:35.

grant proposals by the UK Government is unacceptable. That should be no

:08:36.:08:40.

effective veto for UK ministers on the exercise of the various new

:08:41.:08:44.

powers and particular over the welfare system. It goes on. We

:08:45.:08:48.

shared the view of many organizations across Scotland that

:08:49.:08:51.

the package as it stands, does not enable us to deliver fully social

:08:52.:08:57.

justice are the powerhouse of a economy that opt out -- country

:08:58.:09:04.

demand. That is not enough Smith commission recommendations to

:09:05.:09:06.

empower the Scottish Parliament to tackle inequalities in Scotland.

:09:07.:09:10.

Dismiss commission proposals were in many respects a missed opportunity.

:09:11.:09:17.

This isn't about more than 70% of Scottish taxes and 85% of the

:09:18.:09:20.

current UK welfare spending and Scotland will stay at Westminster.

:09:21.:09:25.

We also want to the country with the following pledge, that Scotland

:09:26.:09:30.

should have the opportunity to establish its own constitutional

:09:31.:09:33.

framework. Including human rights, equality, it is in place of local

:09:34.:09:36.

government. The Scottish Parliament should also have the ability to

:09:37.:09:40.

revisit its interest on the Bob method and the EQ and

:09:41.:09:43.

internationally. We went to the country would do pledges, and what

:09:44.:09:49.

happened? An absolute electoral wipe-out for the Labour Party in

:09:50.:10:00.

Scotland, losing 40 of 41 sees. Losing right across the Scotland.

:10:01.:10:07.

Who I will move on to next. The worst electoral showing an hundred

:10:08.:10:12.

years -- 100 years, since 1865. I have to say to the Honorable

:10:13.:10:18.

gentleman, that I will be grateful if he can point out a single country

:10:19.:10:22.

in the industrialised democratic world, where the mainstream centre

:10:23.:10:27.

right party does as bad as the Scottish Conservative Party. Name

:10:28.:10:32.

that country. Has been put on the record so many times by the

:10:33.:10:37.

gentleman, what I would like to do is one of the Conservative Party

:10:38.:10:41.

polled more votes in the 2015 general election than they did in

:10:42.:10:46.

the 2010 election. He shot to distort those figures. Perhaps,

:10:47.:10:51.

Madam Deputy Speaker, perhaps he would like to join me in

:10:52.:10:55.

congratulating the new conservative counsel would, who taught... The

:10:56.:11:14.

right honourable gentleman had the opportunity to name a single country

:11:15.:11:17.

in the industrialised democratic world where at centre right party

:11:18.:11:20.

does worse than the Scottish Conservative Party. He cannot think

:11:21.:11:24.

of one, because there is not one. The Scottish Tories pulled what he

:11:25.:11:31.

or 9%, down 2%. To be proud of that, for the Secretary of State for

:11:32.:11:40.

Scotland to deny the fact this goes to show how far the Conservative

:11:41.:11:45.

Party, the Labour Party, and also by the point out that liberal

:11:46.:11:50.

Democrats. I don't see the Liberal Democrats here. They lost ten out of

:11:51.:11:56.

11 seats in Scotland. The point of all of this is his understanding of

:11:57.:12:02.

where the Democrat -- democratic mandate lies. We want to the country

:12:03.:12:07.

sank Smith should be delivered in full and further parents should be

:12:08.:12:13.

delivered. And the Scottish National Party won an overwhelming mandate to

:12:14.:12:16.

come to this place and make the case. The gentleman allow time to

:12:17.:12:23.

make a speech and later. That is very little time. I'm the first

:12:24.:12:30.

commentary from the SNP to be caught in this proceeding, more than an

:12:31.:12:37.

hour after the beginning. Madam Deputy Speaker, the sole purpose of

:12:38.:12:42.

the Scotland bill is to implement dismiss commission in. He amendments

:12:43.:12:45.

in the UK Government are a welcome admission that the Scotland bill as

:12:46.:12:51.

published did not deliver Smith. However, the governments of member

:12:52.:12:56.

to the bill still fail to deliver Smith and still failed Scotland. We

:12:57.:13:00.

at SNP had tabled a brand of amendments that will give the people

:13:01.:13:03.

of Scotland the powers that they were promised and the powers that

:13:04.:13:06.

they will need. We have tabled amendments on tax credits, which

:13:07.:13:11.

will devolve to excellence of working tax credits. We have tabled

:13:12.:13:14.

amendments on employment rights which will devolve control over

:13:15.:13:18.

employment rights in the industrial relation to the Scottish Parliament.

:13:19.:13:21.

Will be debating these in the next section. We have also tabled an

:13:22.:13:30.

amendment to the bald powers of all referendum on Scottish independence

:13:31.:13:33.

to the Scottish Parliament. There should be at only be under

:13:34.:13:37.

referendum on the people of Scotland indicate that they one. It is right

:13:38.:13:42.

that the Scottish Parliament, the people Scottish Parliament hold the

:13:43.:13:47.

power to react to the wishes of the people of Scotland. We also should

:13:48.:13:53.

not lose sight of the fiscal framework. That is the financial

:13:54.:13:58.

underpinnings which will allow the transfer of powers to operate

:13:59.:14:02.

without detriment to the people of Scotland. I'd give Wade. This debate

:14:03.:14:17.

is on the Constitution and perhaps Scottish Parliament... Would bring

:14:18.:14:24.

substantial revenue am many jobs to Scotland. Estrogen opportunities,

:14:25.:14:33.

must be about the approach and natural resources. That the member

:14:34.:14:37.

agreed that when it comes to including tax forms and make sure

:14:38.:14:41.

that the distribution of monies is correct, that this is a good

:14:42.:14:45.

opportunity to act on safe ground partnership principles at the very

:14:46.:14:51.

heart of government? I encouraged him to get in touch directly with

:14:52.:14:56.

the brutal secretary of Scotland. We are very proud of the agendas that

:14:57.:15:02.

the government is bringing the rural affairs, and he is bringing the

:15:03.:15:04.

rural affairs, and yet made his case. Returning to the issue of the

:15:05.:15:11.

end of the independence referendum, and Scotland. I commended gentleman

:15:12.:15:15.

party for the having greater strength than the Liberal Democrats.

:15:16.:15:20.

On the issue of the referendum, in order to hold the 2014 referendum

:15:21.:15:26.

that Scottish and UK Government have to agree to in order,... To grant

:15:27.:15:33.

the Scottish Government the legislative compliments to hold a

:15:34.:15:36.

referendum, providing a number of conditions are met, namely that it

:15:37.:15:40.

was held before the end of 2014 and at the ballot box included one

:15:41.:15:46.

question. The SNP amendment to the bill will permanently transferred to

:15:47.:15:49.

the Scottish Parliament the power to legislate for a referendum on

:15:50.:15:52.

Scottish independence. It is right that the Scottish Parliament should

:15:53.:15:57.

decide on this. And not displace. At the First Minister has made clear,

:15:58.:16:03.

the SNP manifesto for next years election will set out our position

:16:04.:16:07.

on a second independence referendum. And considered ring what

:16:08.:16:10.

circumstances what might be appropriate at some point of future.

:16:11.:16:14.

The final decision on whether or not there is another referendum, and

:16:15.:16:18.

with are not Scotland ever becomes independent will always be for the

:16:19.:16:22.

people of Scotland. In the meantime, I would observe that

:16:23.:16:25.

support for Scottish independence has continued to grow, advise people

:16:26.:16:29.

back, watching, I have no doubt that it will probably rise even further.

:16:30.:16:36.

Atlanta-based bowl for the Times found 47% currently support

:16:37.:16:40.

independence, and found that two thirds believe that the country will

:16:41.:16:47.

be independent by 2040. -- 2045. Support for independence has present

:16:48.:16:53.

at the governments have failed to meet its promises. Promoted English

:16:54.:16:59.

falls for English lost. Sent the referendum, the UK governments

:17:00.:17:02.

attitude toward Scotland has angered the great many people and those who

:17:03.:17:06.

are watching proceedings today have good reason to be angered,. They are

:17:07.:17:14.

shown scant regard in the UK Government for the voice of the

:17:15.:17:19.

people of Scotland. Will not lose sight of the financial arrangements

:17:20.:17:25.

that relate to this bill. We've arrested or Scottish questions last

:17:26.:17:28.

week. We understand that the negotiating process is underway

:17:29.:17:32.

between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. Is absolutely

:17:33.:17:37.

critical that that financial framework is negotiated in good

:17:38.:17:39.

faith between both governments, without detriment to the people of

:17:40.:17:44.

Scotland. I am grateful to the right honourable gentleman. Weather would

:17:45.:17:53.

have a little bit more transparency around what discussions are being

:17:54.:17:58.

made to stop anyone, or any party in December from misinterpreting what

:17:59.:18:00.

the fiscal framework is looking to achieve. Than the Scottish people

:18:01.:18:09.

can make their own judgement. I agree with him. I think trespassing

:18:10.:18:13.

is a good thing and I know that our colleagues in the Parliament are

:18:14.:18:17.

happier than we are here by the open approach that the Scottish

:18:18.:18:20.

Government is taking on this matter. Negotiations between both

:18:21.:18:24.

governments, but the Secretary of State could come to this house and

:18:25.:18:26.

provide more information to his satisfaction and mind to. Dismiss

:18:27.:18:30.

commission identified that Scotland budget should be no larger or

:18:31.:18:34.

smaller than simply act as a result of the initial transfer of powers.

:18:35.:18:39.

And recommended the devolution of further tax spending to the Scottish

:18:40.:18:42.

Parliament should be accompanied by an fiscal framework for Scotland and

:18:43.:18:46.

that the UK and Scotland government should work together via the joint

:18:47.:18:52.

committee to revise fiscal funding framework for Scotland. UK and

:18:53.:18:56.

Scottish governments are negotiating the framework on an ongoing basis.

:18:57.:19:01.

It should allow the Scottish Government to pursue its own

:19:02.:19:03.

distinct policies that meet the needs and wishes of the people of

:19:04.:19:07.

Scotland for fiscal devolution to work, it is essential that the

:19:08.:19:11.

Scottish Government to someplace ability. Consistent with the over UK

:19:12.:19:16.

framework. The blogger and adjustment should be robust,

:19:17.:19:19.

transparent, and deliver a fair outcome for Scotland to be agreed by

:19:20.:19:24.

both government. The effect of the adjustment should be assured that

:19:25.:19:26.

the Scottish Government budget should be a rock on big no better or

:19:27.:19:30.

worse off in the long term against the devolved taxes would have raised

:19:31.:19:34.

have been not been devolve. The Scottish Government has said that

:19:35.:19:37.

they will not sign up to any adjustment which is not there to

:19:38.:19:41.

Scotland. This is in-line with the no detriment principle set out at

:19:42.:19:45.

end dismiss commission. Before us today we have 200 amendments and new

:19:46.:19:51.

clauses. They are a massively important to people in Scotland, but

:19:52.:19:56.

sadly not to the Labour Party and the Conservative Party who are in

:19:57.:20:02.

here such small numbers. I was to bring my contribution to a close. To

:20:03.:20:06.

make sure that more members of Parliament for Scotland by the

:20:07.:20:10.

opportunity to take part. The people of Scotland are watching these

:20:11.:20:13.

proceedings. We are told that did this to the mother of all polymers.

:20:14.:20:18.

If it is be the most important legislation about the future of our

:20:19.:20:22.

country, to have a shoehorned into less than one day a proceedings,

:20:23.:20:26.

incidentally for the affirmation of the shadow Secretary of State for

:20:27.:20:30.

Scotland against the wishes of the SNP, who pressed for another day of

:20:31.:20:34.

proceeding to what to look into this in detail, people should look and

:20:35.:20:39.

learn because it is this is the way to bring forward legislation, we do

:20:40.:20:42.

not need a. The Scottish Parliament is a 21st century Parliament, and if

:20:43.:20:47.

ever there was a case but for these problems being exercised all issues

:20:48.:20:50.

that mattered to the people of Scotland, this is an. It is a

:20:51.:21:02.

pleasure to follow the right honourable member. My apology. I

:21:03.:21:12.

have lived in England for in more than 50 -- 15 years. 1's accent

:21:13.:21:15.

that's changed. Is also a pleasure to have listened to the hombre

:21:16.:21:23.

member. I agree with this that is is indeed an important constitutional

:21:24.:21:27.

bill. We are hearing today, Madam Deputy Speaker, how this bill will

:21:28.:21:32.

make the Scottish Parliament, not just a permanent institution in the

:21:33.:21:37.

UK's arrangement, but one of the worlds most powerful devolved

:21:38.:21:44.

parliaments. It will allow workers to leave decisions affecting

:21:45.:21:50.

Scotland to be taken in Scotland. Crucially, it will increase the

:21:51.:21:52.

financial responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament at its

:21:53.:21:56.

accountability to the Scottish public. That is that the opposite

:21:57.:22:05.

member opposite do not wish. Accountability is something that has

:22:06.:22:09.

been lacking in these last eight years and Scotland. Home we hear

:22:10.:22:12.

about the bride and Scotland. Home we hear about the griping grievance

:22:13.:22:15.

constantly being done to let them about decisions and powers, which

:22:16.:22:19.

already rest within the Scottish National Party and Scottish

:22:20.:22:24.

Government. It must be said that Bible for the South today by the

:22:25.:22:30.

Secretary of State and his team contains substantial financial

:22:31.:22:38.

powers, including over, income tax, the devolution of substantial

:22:39.:22:41.

elements of the welfare system, and up range of other powers including

:22:42.:22:45.

constitutional powers and transport. Is a pleasure to give

:22:46.:22:53.

away For their generous way of giving away. Half of the AP will be

:22:54.:23:02.

assigned. There are no powers over VAT and I do fear that the

:23:03.:23:05.

honourable gentleman has misspoken and his excitement to prove his

:23:06.:23:12.

loyalty to his front bench. The Honorable member has are pretty

:23:13.:23:15.

extensive powers when it comes to income tax. Which ask why in the

:23:16.:23:24.

last eight years has the SNP failed to use any of the powers that they

:23:25.:23:28.

currently have. Blaming London and England for all their problems that

:23:29.:23:35.

they create back in Scotland. Along with that house but, that will that

:23:36.:23:45.

Scotland also retain the huge benefits of being a part of the UK

:23:46.:23:50.

of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The benefits that the

:23:51.:23:55.

people of Scotland, remember those big words, the Democratic majority

:23:56.:24:01.

that voted Tuesday part of the UK last year, sadly that has been

:24:02.:24:14.

lacking. I believe... It would be fair to say that they simply do not

:24:15.:24:21.

want to answer the question of accountability. It is

:24:22.:24:24.

accountability. What have they done with the powers that they have had

:24:25.:24:28.

over the last eight years? They simply blamed London for all the

:24:29.:24:31.

problems that they have created. Not at this moment. The Scotland bill

:24:32.:24:39.

would turn the historic of all parties met the group agreement, an

:24:40.:24:43.

agreement that the members opposite agreed-upon. It will turn into

:24:44.:24:48.

constitutional legislation. And a the Conservative Party will able to

:24:49.:24:53.

lay claim on words as being the true party for the Scots who believe in

:24:54.:25:03.

our UK. That is to say the greater majority

:25:04.:25:14.

These are serious and important issues as far as the constitutional

:25:15.:25:19.

government is concerned. Does he share my disappointment that all

:25:20.:25:24.

that he seems to be hearing from the nationalist benches is the political

:25:25.:25:27.

polls and who stood where and who lost what, and in turn how they will

:25:28.:25:33.

use these powers? My honourable friend is absolutely correct. The

:25:34.:25:38.

base that will -- this grace that we are hearing is the disgrace that the

:25:39.:25:40.

laughter in respect to the discussion that we are having on

:25:41.:25:44.

this constitution or bill that is coming from the benches opposite. It

:25:45.:25:50.

is no surprise that opposition Nationalist MPs are true to their

:25:51.:25:54.

form. They continue to create grievance where there is not. They

:25:55.:25:59.

offer Mr to be people of Scotland when they should be working with all

:26:00.:26:03.

sides of this house better together, that is what the people of Scotland

:26:04.:26:08.

voted for -- they offer mischief. Devoted nearly a year ago for a

:26:09.:26:11.

better United Kingdom of Great Britain and in northern Ireland.

:26:12.:26:17.

They do not want the people of Scotland, constitutional

:26:18.:26:24.

uncertainties he. My constituents are a small and great Ireland

:26:25.:26:31.

nation, and the people of Britain are fed up. The truth is, Madam

:26:32.:26:37.

Deputy Speaker, that nothing will please the honourable members

:26:38.:26:39.

opposite. Nothing at all. That should be knows the price to this

:26:40.:26:45.

side of the House. -- no surprise. All the members opposite want is the

:26:46.:26:49.

end of the UK. Therefore, they will not support any Scotland bill, no

:26:50.:26:54.

matter what powers of devolution might be offered to them. They

:26:55.:26:57.

simply do not want it. I will take the honourable member. I think my

:26:58.:27:09.

honourable friend... Under the new act that he owns a comedy club. Can

:27:10.:27:16.

I ask the honourable member... Is this a metal that will take away

:27:17.:27:19.

basic industrial relations powers away from devolved administrations?

:27:20.:27:24.

We can see Madam Deputy Speaker, that the respect comes from only

:27:25.:27:28.

this side of the House to that side of the House. There is simply no

:27:29.:27:32.

respect. There is no interest in being respectful because the

:27:33.:27:34.

honourable members opposite simply want to destruction of great Britain

:27:35.:27:39.

-- the destruction. We will never permit that. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:27:40.:27:45.

we must remind the House as I did in my meetings speech, I am pleased to

:27:46.:27:53.

see the right honourable member is in his seat. There was another

:27:54.:27:56.

promise and we will never forget this other promise given to be

:27:57.:27:58.

people of Scotland and indeed to behold UK. -- the whole. What was a?

:27:59.:28:10.

He told the voters of Scotland last you that in respect of the

:28:11.:28:14.

referendum, this is a once in a generation, he said "perhaps even a

:28:15.:28:19.

once in a lifetime opportunity! Postal what disrespect the

:28:20.:28:24.

honourable members are showing to the people of Scotland today. Barely

:28:25.:28:27.

able year has passed and they are demanding and other referendum. We

:28:28.:28:33.

can never trust the SNP again with any agreement or referendum. The

:28:34.:28:41.

people of my constituency South Leicestershire him as I mentioned,

:28:42.:28:44.

are fed up with for grievance. They want stability and this bill today

:28:45.:28:51.

provides stability for the whole of the UK. I will give way. You said

:28:52.:28:59.

before that... For your constituents and Leicestershire South was evil

:29:00.:29:03.

and making sure that it went through and we can vote on English laws. The

:29:04.:29:08.

same constituents, year on year, participating in this debate and

:29:09.:29:10.

arguing absolutely nothing good. Hear, hear!

:29:11.:29:16.

I do not understand the honourable gentleman's point copy if he is

:29:17.:29:19.

talking about a member that comes from Scotland representing in

:29:20.:29:23.

English constituency, forget that this is a British pilot. I represent

:29:24.:29:28.

a British constituency in the UK Parliament. We must never forget

:29:29.:29:32.

that. And other argument that we have had for months now is that

:29:33.:29:37.

those members opposite are able somehow, using perhaps psychic

:29:38.:29:46.

hours, to tell us what was in the minds... Let me establish what was

:29:47.:29:55.

in the mind. I campaigned in Scotland, I spoke to thousands. The

:29:56.:30:01.

no voters owed for one simple thing. No to separation and yes to the

:30:02.:30:11.

United Kingdom. . Any other that the honourable member suggest they have

:30:12.:30:15.

voted for instantly based on no evidence. They cannot have it both

:30:16.:30:19.

ways. They cannot determine and tell us why we want independence and at

:30:20.:30:22.

the same time, tell us what was in the mind of the no votes are. The

:30:23.:30:29.

nobles are bolted no because they wanted and loved the United Kingdom

:30:30.:30:37.

of Great Britain -- no voter. The honourable gentleman suggests that

:30:38.:30:40.

we do not know what is in the mind of the no voters. We spent months

:30:41.:30:43.

knocking on doors and speaking to them. Therefore they have told us.

:30:44.:30:50.

"I regret it. I voted because I was over at -- I was afraid, but Ira

:30:51.:30:56.

granted." So we are not guessing, they are speaking to us. There are

:30:57.:31:02.

many yes voters who have told me how pleased they were that the no voters

:31:03.:31:07.

won. Look at where Scotland would be today had the people of Scotland

:31:08.:31:13.

voted for separation! Know, to be honourable Lady, I am afraid she is

:31:14.:31:18.

fundamentally wrong. Many of the yes voters are very pleased that the

:31:19.:31:25.

people of Scotland voted sensibly. Not at this stage copy the truth

:31:26.:31:31.

is, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the SNP simply do not want to answer the

:31:32.:31:38.

tilt the Mac legitimate questions that we should be asking today about

:31:39.:31:43.

the Scotland bill -- do not want to answer be legitimate questions. It

:31:44.:31:46.

is time for the honourable members to explain to this house and the

:31:47.:31:52.

people of Scotland how they and tend to use these extensive powers. They

:31:53.:31:57.

always complain, but do not explain how they intend to use these powers.

:31:58.:32:01.

For example how they will sort out the mess of the Scottish NHS. It has

:32:02.:32:07.

given less money than the English NHS IVF in the Scottish government.

:32:08.:32:16.

How were they sort out, Madam Deputy Speaker, the centralising tendency?

:32:17.:32:19.

Take for example, the least Scotland. What a clever idea. Let's

:32:20.:32:25.

centralise power to Edinburgh. That is another example of how they hold

:32:26.:32:34.

power to themselves. How will they ensure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that

:32:35.:32:38.

they will properly finance Scotland's fantastic universities,

:32:39.:32:41.

one of which I was proud to go to? What about answering the questions

:32:42.:32:46.

of universal leaders bring to be SNP government about a lack of money in

:32:47.:32:49.

a problem with government structures that the SNP are inflicting on

:32:50.:32:52.

Scottish universities? And how will they ensure they improve the

:32:53.:32:57.

terminal justice system in Scotland, rather than blaming London in

:32:58.:33:02.

England and creating grievance where there are none? The truth is, the

:33:03.:33:06.

they have been in government for eight long years and it is about

:33:07.:33:09.

time that the accountability should be taken by the SNP government and

:33:10.:33:17.

not blaming London for everything. The truth, Madam Deputy Speaker, is

:33:18.:33:21.

that the Scotland bill, once and for all was so the SNP for what they

:33:22.:33:29.

really are. They are a party failing the people of Scotland. Eparchy,

:33:30.:33:34.

ignoring the wishes of the Democratic majority -- a party. They

:33:35.:33:39.

said no to independence. I will take the honourable member. I am grateful

:33:40.:33:43.

today to be honourable gentleman for giving way. Forgive me that we are

:33:44.:33:48.

members of the benches are not going to sit here and listen to be

:33:49.:33:51.

honourable gentleman due down our Scottish NHS or indeed, due down our

:33:52.:33:55.

university system which provides free education for area people

:33:56.:33:59.

because that is what we believe in and Scotland. He is damaging a

:34:00.:34:06.

willful lack of understanding I think -- demonstrating. We win

:34:07.:34:11.

elections and Scotland. As a fact, we win elections under PR system by

:34:12.:34:17.

majority in Scotland and we won the general election in Scotland. So we

:34:18.:34:20.

are here debating the Scotland bill and it will be great if the

:34:21.:34:22.

honourable gentleman would begin to debate it so we can at maximum

:34:23.:34:28.

powers to the people of Scotland because this government has failed

:34:29.:34:32.

them! Hear, hear! Madam Deputy Speaker, I am signing a

:34:33.:34:36.

light on what is really happening in Scotland under the 1-party state

:34:37.:34:40.

that has become the SNP. The Secretary of State in his team

:34:41.:34:41.

through this bill, board! Order! Honourable members might not

:34:42.:34:56.

agree with what the items of gas honourable gentleman is saying, but

:34:57.:34:59.

it is simply rude to be sold out and make so much noise that he cannot be

:35:00.:35:04.

heard. Just as I have defended the honourable gentleman on the front

:35:05.:35:06.

bench and make sure that he was hurt, so I am defending the

:35:07.:35:09.

honourable gentleman. He will be heard. Exactly, Madam Deputy

:35:10.:35:16.

Speaker. What would the people of Scotland make up the laughter coming

:35:17.:35:18.

from those benches opposite? That is his respect. That is a disgraceful

:35:19.:35:24.

state of Scottish MP of fairs that we have in this house. The truth is

:35:25.:35:29.

that the Secretary of State and his team are presenting a formidable

:35:30.:35:35.

constitutional settlement for the people of Scotland. The people of

:35:36.:35:37.

Scotland want a strong United Kingdom of great Britain. I believe

:35:38.:35:44.

in Scotland having a strong place within the UK. At the truth is there

:35:45.:35:48.

is nothing that this side of the House can offer members opposite in

:35:49.:35:53.

respect of a devout settlement, because they simply don't want one.

:35:54.:35:57.

They want to see an end of the UK. Whereas we want to see it together.

:35:58.:36:02.

LAUGHTER Madam Deputy Speaker, I make my

:36:03.:36:09.

final comments, this is a bill that will settle the argument once and

:36:10.:36:14.

for all. Four in one year's time board two, we will be able to look

:36:15.:36:19.

at Gotland, I will take the honourable lady -- Scotland. He is

:36:20.:36:27.

concluding on the basis that this bill was started of the Smith

:36:28.:36:32.

commission. But a committee of NSP in the Scottish Parliament,

:36:33.:36:37.

including his own party, has said that this does not mean the

:36:38.:36:41.

aspirations of the Smith commission. How does he answer to

:36:42.:36:44.

people in Scotland of his own party who did not believe? Hear, hear!

:36:45.:36:49.

That is simply not the case. Madam Deputy Speaker, this Scottish

:36:50.:36:55.

Parliament's middies are stuck with SNP, MSP. There is knows a price

:36:56.:36:59.

that they're taking the party line. In conclusion, I would offer and all

:37:00.:37:05.

to be side opposite. If they genuinely believe in keeping

:37:06.:37:11.

promises to the electorate, let's start with the right honourable

:37:12.:37:17.

member's promised copy they had the referendum and they lost. Let's work

:37:18.:37:25.

together to strengthen Scotland. Hear, hear!

:37:26.:37:31.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to start with a piece of

:37:32.:37:36.

context as well. The reason why we are here discussing this is because

:37:37.:37:40.

of what happened the 18th of September last year. With the

:37:41.:37:44.

Scottish people were invited to give their views in the proposition as to

:37:45.:37:48.

whether Scotland should be a self-governing nation. They voted

:37:49.:37:53.

55-45, no, to that proposition. I do not look into the minds and know the

:37:54.:37:58.

domain they settle well with all of the people that voted in that

:37:59.:38:02.

referendum. But I do know this, that amongst the 55% who voted no, there

:38:03.:38:05.

were plenty of people who thought that the union as exist today is

:38:06.:38:10.

exactly the type of place they would like to live in and they had no

:38:11.:38:14.

quarrel with it. They like the constitutional settlement. Also

:38:15.:38:19.

amongst that percentage, in the group that made the difference to

:38:20.:38:23.

the outcome were people who believed what they were told by the leaders

:38:24.:38:28.

of all the unionist parties, that in fact be voting the 18th of September

:38:29.:38:32.

was not able for the state it was a vote for a new relationship within

:38:33.:38:35.

the union where additional powers were being transferred. That was the

:38:36.:38:41.

valve that was signed by the leader of the right honourable gentleman's

:38:42.:38:43.

party and by two other party leaders who now must be this quite as

:38:44.:38:49.

former. But it was put front and centre in front of the electorate.

:38:50.:38:53.

That is why people voted no to that proposition. We are to have the

:38:54.:38:58.

Smith comes commission to consider what that would be. If you seek a

:38:59.:39:04.

consensus, the bar will be pretty low. But the Smith omission came out

:39:05.:39:08.

with a report on how these proposals to greater devolution might be

:39:09.:39:14.

implemented -- Smith commission. Our party at the time signed off on

:39:15.:39:17.

them, but that this was only a floor, not a ceiling to be

:39:18.:39:20.

aspirations we have for self-government. Said that Smith did

:39:21.:39:26.

not go far enough to satisfy that. Then we get to the beginning of this

:39:27.:39:30.

year we have the first draft of the bill we are now discussing,

:39:31.:39:33.

published by the government. It was quite clear than that in fact I'm of

:39:34.:39:37.

the proposals had been watered down even more. Now we have the Smith

:39:38.:39:42.

commission not delivering their bow and we have a draft bill, not even

:39:43.:39:45.

delivering the Smith commission. That is not just our view, but that

:39:46.:39:50.

certainly was of the right honourable gentleman who spoke last.

:39:51.:39:55.

We would say that, wouldn't we? Because we will be dissatisfied with

:39:56.:40:00.

what ever happened. Maybe we will, but your party may be a unfamiliar

:40:01.:40:03.

with the concept of Mendes and consent, but we are quite relaxed

:40:04.:40:09.

about it. -- meditation and consent. So we put this to be Scottish

:40:10.:40:13.

electorate. We put this to be people of Scotland. We do not have to guess

:40:14.:40:16.

what was in their minds because we know what they did in the general

:40:17.:40:23.

election in May. My honourable friend has explained a quotient from

:40:24.:40:30.

our manifesto in which we stood in that election. Let us be extremely

:40:31.:40:39.

clear. This was not .97 of our manifesto, it was point number one.

:40:40.:40:43.

It was the main steam of the general election of Scotland. It was the

:40:44.:40:46.

central proposition of our party that there should be a additional

:40:47.:40:48.

powers, come to be Scottish government, over and beyond what was

:40:49.:40:52.

in the bill. I would be happy to give weight come above we would get

:40:53.:40:55.

a Joe. LAUGHTER Again, part of the disrespect, Adam

:40:56.:41:03.

Deputy Speaker. Does the honourable gentleman accept that last year's

:41:04.:41:07.

referendum was once in a lifetime? Yes or no? I never said that. I

:41:08.:41:19.

accept... I accept this. And I put it back to you. I think every

:41:20.:41:22.

government should accept this. No government has the right to stand in

:41:23.:41:27.

the way of people who wish a particular point for new direction.

:41:28.:41:32.

Hear, hear! I prefer to make some progress, if I

:41:33.:41:36.

may. I give way in a moment. So we sought a mandate and we got a

:41:37.:41:43.

mandate. And whatever happens here today, please understand that this

:41:44.:41:49.

bill does not satisfy the aspirations of the Scottish people

:41:50.:41:52.

for greater control over their own affairs. This bill is a response to

:41:53.:41:58.

be Smith commission. We are still waiting for what the government's

:41:59.:42:01.

response to be general election was when the people of Scotland made

:42:02.:42:06.

their view quite clear. Whatever happens today, this is not over. We

:42:07.:42:09.

should be coming back during the next five years of our domain on

:42:10.:42:15.

this chamber to argue again and again for more powers for the

:42:16.:42:18.

Scottish Government to satisfy the aspirations of the Scottish people.

:42:19.:42:22.

If that takes a further Scotland bill as some states later on, then

:42:23.:42:26.

so be it. Hear, hear! With the member not understand that

:42:27.:42:33.

the rest of the UK also would like to have a say in this debate. This

:42:34.:42:37.

debate is not just about Gotland, it is about in my case and everyone

:42:38.:42:44.

else, you had a very good indication of how the Scottish, the rest of us

:42:45.:42:48.

have not had the chance to discuss exactly the same points with our own

:42:49.:42:53.

electorate. The message I was given loud and clear from my Northern

:42:54.:43:05.

Irish electorate... Take a more that the message I got from my electorate

:43:06.:43:08.

was that the union is in danger and they do not want it to fall apart.

:43:09.:43:11.

They want all of us to work together. You must speak for the

:43:12.:43:16.

people that elected you and I will speak for the people that elected

:43:17.:43:20.

me. Hear, hear! As far as I'm concerned I am

:43:21.:43:22.

discussing the Scotland bill as a molded. So we have the situation

:43:23.:43:28.

where this bill falls far short of the expectations, not just that this

:43:29.:43:32.

party had, but the people of Scotland. Scottish civic society,

:43:33.:43:37.

trade unions, churches, volunteer organisations, all throughout

:43:38.:43:39.

Scotland they are disappointed at the poverty ambition of the

:43:40.:43:44.

Secretary of State in this government in terms of what is in

:43:45.:43:48.

this bill. Would've come back to be bill itself. I guess is all we have

:43:49.:43:53.

for the present. I don't normally read, but I wanted to read this so I

:43:54.:43:56.

do not get it wrong. The Secretary of State said on the 8th of June" I

:43:57.:44:02.

know absolutely that the Scotland bill does fulfil in full the

:44:03.:44:05.

recommendations of the Smith commission". Obviously he has had

:44:06.:44:10.

the benefit of the summit to consider the situation and to

:44:11.:44:13.

understand whether that statement is in fact true. It most seems that it

:44:14.:44:18.

could not have been true because we have had no less I'm a -- 128

:44:19.:44:26.

amendments from the government to their own bill. I would submit that

:44:27.:44:30.

never in the field of discussion on legislation, has a proposal been so

:44:31.:44:33.

amended by its proposers and still managed to fall so far short of its

:44:34.:44:39.

objectives. Hear, hear! Nonetheless it is welcome that

:44:40.:44:41.

second thoughts are being heard. And that some improvements are being

:44:42.:44:47.

made. I would like to start with is question of permanents. I wonder why

:44:48.:44:54.

it has taken now to happen, but it is good that in New Clause 12 that

:44:55.:44:58.

we have the agreement that the Scottish Parliament will not be

:44:59.:45:01.

taken away come and dissolved, or otherwise removed without first

:45:02.:45:07.

there being an decider amongst the Scottish people and folding in a

:45:08.:45:09.

referendum that that is what they want to do. I am pleased the Mac at

:45:10.:45:14.

the Secretary of State in bringing for that amendment that

:45:15.:45:19.

recognises... July with the people of Scotland, whose government we are

:45:20.:45:24.

discussing. That it lies with the people. I would to discuss our

:45:25.:45:33.

proposal, the New Clause 36, which takes principles are pretty a little

:45:34.:45:36.

bit further. It says that when we come to discussions in the future

:45:37.:45:41.

about the arrangement for the government of Scotland is to be the

:45:42.:45:44.

people of Scotland's Parliament that determine what those discussions are

:45:45.:45:49.

in a timetable on which they are put to the people in a referendum. That

:45:50.:45:56.

seems only a logical extension. If not the Scottish Parliament to

:45:57.:46:02.

consider and respond to demands for a future referendum, where there

:46:03.:46:05.

would be one, then who else should it be? It would be ridiculous that

:46:06.:46:09.

this Parliament should retain that power for itself. I wanted to talk

:46:10.:46:21.

about the sole convention. The commission was why clear when is

:46:22.:46:25.

that the Sewell convention should be enshrined in that you. That bill,

:46:26.:46:27.

after all this time does not make that happen. The Sewell convention

:46:28.:46:33.

is one that that the Imperial Parliament should not interfere in

:46:34.:46:39.

devolved decisions by the Scottish Parliament or other devolved

:46:40.:46:43.

assemblies. So why can we not enshrined that if we pass the SNP

:46:44.:46:46.

amendment today we will make that happen? That one China principle

:46:47.:46:54.

assisted -- that was enshrined the principle of subsidiarity. I want to

:46:55.:47:02.

give him the qualification of the Sewell convention. If he does push

:47:03.:47:07.

that to build this evening, will certainly support that and maybe

:47:08.:47:13.

attack some other mentioned that need to be carried -- other benches.

:47:14.:47:19.

The principle here is quite simple. You do not keep a dog and fight

:47:20.:47:22.

yourself, do you? You have to try and allow organisations to get on

:47:23.:47:29.

with it. I wanted to, and this main response of the honourable member,

:47:30.:47:34.

because I was disappointed that he took almost 2% of the time available

:47:35.:47:38.

to us in this debate at this time to discuss not constitutional

:47:39.:47:44.

principles of the government of Scotland, but in order to pursue his

:47:45.:47:48.

subjects that he feels very concerned about in terms of the

:47:49.:47:54.

decentralization of services. What we are discussing is a change in the

:47:55.:47:58.

Constitution of arrangements between Scotland and England within the

:47:59.:48:01.

Union. We are talking about giving more authority and confidence is to

:48:02.:48:05.

be Scottish Government. That is not the same thing at all as a

:48:06.:48:10.

decentralization of the administration of public services. I

:48:11.:48:14.

think you are wrong, I am will not worded the way in making friends

:48:15.:48:18.

with your debate, to do what you did earlier. Finally, I wanted to talk

:48:19.:48:25.

about fiscal autonomy. I think some of the opponents of this might take

:48:26.:48:31.

this away at the last time, I hope it has been debated... Something we

:48:32.:48:38.

would forget about, but believe me we have not forgot about it. We

:48:39.:48:41.

absolutely want the Scottish Government to have control over the

:48:42.:48:44.

economy in Scotland. We want the ability to grow the economy, the

:48:45.:48:48.

higher tease in line with the aspirations of the people of

:48:49.:48:52.

Scotland -- the priorities in my. I have yet to hear from the honourable

:48:53.:49:00.

member, a principal argument against it. The honourable member describes

:49:01.:49:07.

this black hole of the time, but that is not an argument of

:49:08.:49:10.

principle. That is not an argument against giving the Scottish

:49:11.:49:13.

government control over economic affairs, that is an argument to

:49:14.:49:20.

saying we should make sure we get it right and prepare for that

:49:21.:49:22.

devolution of powers. So I hope wrapped in the future, he might come

:49:23.:49:25.

around to that way of thinking, which is why we shall be objecting

:49:26.:49:29.

to the proposal which is here to give a conservative Secretary of

:49:30.:49:32.

State the power to set up a commission to look into whether or

:49:33.:49:37.

not this could happen. Because the conservative Secretary of State has

:49:38.:49:40.

already made clear his intentions in this regard. Just finishing up, if I

:49:41.:49:45.

may. So we will be putting this again, and it will be by the way the

:49:46.:49:50.

subject of future debate in Scotland. I will tell you what the

:49:51.:49:54.

grandest commission of all will be in this debate. It will be the

:49:55.:49:57.

electorate of Scotland, who in six or seven months' time will get

:49:58.:50:00.

another opportunity to decide whether they want to press ahead and

:50:01.:50:06.

have better economic powers for their government. We will get

:50:07.:50:08.

another mandate and come to make that argument again. My final

:50:09.:50:15.

comments on the framework to which the honourable member has already

:50:16.:50:18.

referred, it is not for us here today. To get involved or even

:50:19.:50:25.

seek... The discussion that is going on between Scottish and UK ministers

:50:26.:50:30.

over the fiscal framework. But we do have to be absolutely clear over

:50:31.:50:34.

what is at stake here. E Smith commission was very clear. It's said

:50:35.:50:39.

that whatever powers are devolved to Scotland, it should be at no

:50:40.:50:42.

detriment. In other words at the point of transfer of the power, the

:50:43.:50:48.

Scottish budget should not suffer as a consequence. I would like to hear

:50:49.:50:51.

from the secretary of state in the summing up that he believes in

:50:52.:50:54.

Appenzell and that that is gaining the discussions that he is having

:50:55.:50:58.

with Scottish ministers -- police in that principles. If this is used as

:50:59.:51:07.

a device... And not provide adequate funding for the delivery of new

:51:08.:51:10.

powers, then he will do a disservice and fuel that we will come back with

:51:11.:51:16.

a new bill which will be considerably improved from this one.

:51:17.:51:24.

Hear, hear! In September 1997, I travelled from

:51:25.:51:29.

Dudley to Glasgow and two and number -- and to Edinburgh to support the

:51:30.:51:35.

campaign. Are a member helping out. There is an awful lot of noise from

:51:36.:51:39.

the chamber. And someone is on their feet speaking. Thank you. Thank you,

:51:40.:51:44.

Madam Deputy Speaker. I remember organising events which I told you

:51:45.:51:48.

the honourable gentleman who has just left the chamber, appearing at

:51:49.:51:56.

the sight of the Royal high school in Edinburgh. To decide what will

:51:57.:52:01.

become the Scottish Parliament. Madam Deputy Speaker, members of the

:52:02.:52:07.

SMP, when I was there hoping the referendum in 1997 -- SNP. They did

:52:08.:52:14.

not object so much been from people of England taking interest and costs

:52:15.:52:18.

politics. That led to be establishment of the Scottish

:52:19.:52:25.

Parliament. It will make it a permanent part of the UK's

:52:26.:52:29.

Constitution. I want to set out as well in the speech come a this will

:52:30.:52:34.

be the -- his will be the shortest we've heard this afternoon. I wanted

:52:35.:52:39.

to set out some comments on greater decentralization. Unlike my

:52:40.:52:43.

honourable member from Nottingham North. The biggest transfer of power

:52:44.:52:48.

since the Scotland Act of 1998. This bill will make the Scottish armament

:52:49.:52:52.

the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. With power

:52:53.:52:57.

over most income tax and much of social security in the way -- I give

:52:58.:53:05.

way. I wonder if the Member for Dudley North can answer a simple

:53:06.:53:07.

question. Does he think these proposals are as close to a federal

:53:08.:53:13.

state as you can be? Just a simple yes or no? In these proposals, are

:53:14.:53:20.

setting out as I have said, proposals was will know the Scottish

:53:21.:53:22.

Parliament the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

:53:23.:53:27.

That has been the driving force he hide this bill. We pushed to make

:53:28.:53:32.

sure Scotland has all the extra powers, including over welfare, new

:53:33.:53:37.

Social Security system, to ensure it will have the opportunity to

:53:38.:53:41.

mitigate the impact of Tory cuts to tax credits. Despite their

:53:42.:53:45.

desperation to be disappointed, their determination to feel

:53:46.:53:48.

grievance and stoke resentment, the S has said that if you give the

:53:49.:53:52.

Scottish public and the powers it needs to create a new Social

:53:53.:53:56.

Security system in Scotland -- SNP. When asked whether the bill gives

:53:57.:53:59.

power to make them any reduction in tax credits, the SNP spokesperson

:54:00.:54:06.

said "the amendments should give the Scottish Parliament those powers".

:54:07.:54:12.

But despite that, a series of amendments including ten new clauses

:54:13.:54:17.

on national issues, the living wage, employment legislation,

:54:18.:54:20.

industrial relations, benefits, full fiscal autonomy and the power to

:54:21.:54:24.

decide where and when to hold a referendum. What we consider those

:54:25.:54:28.

powers, I think we ought to look first at this administration as

:54:29.:54:31.

exercise the powers it already holds. In 2001, surgeons at a party

:54:32.:54:38.

that is now in the second term of office cannot avoid this possibility

:54:39.:54:43.

for its own fate. I think she is absolutely right on that. I think

:54:44.:54:45.

that is absolutely right. Like Kurt Thomas I think they should be judged

:54:46.:54:51.

on their record of running Scotland's schools and hospitals. I

:54:52.:54:54.

agree with my honourable friend from Nottingham North because the truth

:54:55.:54:58.

is that in Scotland schools, the gaps between the richest and the

:54:59.:55:02.

rest is growing. Its hospitals are struggling. And its housing system

:55:03.:55:08.

is in crisis. The separatist and now the establishment...

:55:09.:55:14.

threatening to strike. Perhaps the honourable gentleman may wish to do

:55:15.:55:22.

a direct comparison of performance before he attacks. I will, to my

:55:23.:55:29.

break of a burning the health service shortly. Before I do that no

:55:30.:55:36.

shouting -- no shutting out please. Is hard to hear what he is saying. I

:55:37.:55:40.

do not think it is appropriate to shop. If people want to speak, they

:55:41.:55:48.

can intervene. No shouting! They are behaving like nationalist bullies.

:55:49.:55:55.

When they try to silence anybody who has a different view and they want

:55:56.:56:01.

to Britain whether you are allowed to take place in a debate in this

:56:02.:56:05.

chamber is where you represent or the action that you have. It is a

:56:06.:56:10.

disgrace. It really is a complete disgrace. Isn't it a disgrace that

:56:11.:56:17.

the people of Scotland, including labour support and conservatives,

:56:18.:56:23.

who voted decisively to reject separatism are being completely

:56:24.:56:25.

ignored by the honourable members today? It is. It is a disgrace. What

:56:26.:56:34.

what is an even bigger disgrace is the state of education and Scotland,

:56:35.:56:38.

run by the SNP. Where the gap between the richest and the rest

:56:39.:56:42.

purse since. Were the poor such as him and Scotland are not getting the

:56:43.:56:45.

opportunity that they should. Young people from deprived backgrounds are

:56:46.:56:51.

facing grants that have been cut, making them the lowest in the UK.

:56:52.:56:56.

Every year, more than 6000 children and Scotland are unable to read

:56:57.:56:59.

properly and people from a wealthy background are twice as likely to

:57:00.:57:03.

get a hype rate than people from deprived backgrounds. People from

:57:04.:57:06.

wealthy backgrounds are twice as likely to go onto higher education

:57:07.:57:10.

than those from deprived backgrounds. In further education,

:57:11.:57:15.

there are 140,000 fewer students going to in Scotland. -The first

:57:16.:57:22.

that's funding for colleges have been cut down. Style had the lowest

:57:23.:57:30.

percentage of college entrance. As I said, grants and Berbers refer

:57:31.:57:39.

students have been cut by 35%. The Honorable Lady a moment ago asked me

:57:40.:57:43.

about the HMS. Did that under the SNP, standard has been slipping.

:57:44.:57:48.

Waiting times have been missed and pressures increasing on nurses and

:57:49.:57:54.

doctors. From the impartial Scottish Parliament Center, show that the SNP

:57:55.:57:58.

have not increase investment in the NHS as much as in England, despite

:57:59.:58:05.

rising demand. The AMD target has not been met for six years. Over

:58:06.:58:10.

400,000 people have had to wait more than four hours in... Says the

:58:11.:58:17.

governor 11. The new house building Glasgow posts did the lowest waiting

:58:18.:58:23.

time targets at this opening. On 77% of patients were saying within four

:58:24.:58:31.

hours. Only one third, I would tell her that only one third of NHS

:58:32.:58:35.

Scotland staff say there is enough staff for them to do the job

:58:36.:58:41.

properly. This by promising Les Obama in the area NHS, spending on

:58:42.:58:46.

health services is at its high since devolution. I also agree with my

:58:47.:58:50.

Honorable friend from Nottingham North on the case of a great

:58:51.:58:54.

centralisation from Holly Road to local authorities. That might enable

:58:55.:58:57.

local authorities and Scotland to tackle the housing crisis across the

:58:58.:59:02.

country. Colonization the biggest housing crisis since the Second

:59:03.:59:07.

World War. Barely 180,000 people on social housing waiting list.

:59:08.:59:14.

Scotland estimated will be more than 500 new homes -- build in the next

:59:15.:59:18.

25 years. In 2007, the year labour left house in Scotland, there were

:59:19.:59:25.

25,000 housing completions. In 2410, there were just 15,000, at 40%

:59:26.:59:32.

reduction. When I'd visited Edinburg last weekend, I was stunned, he

:59:33.:59:40.

thinks it is funny. I think is a disgrace the level... An absolute

:59:41.:59:46.

disgrace for which his colleagues in the SNP should be thoroughly

:59:47.:59:49.

ashamed. Everyone knows that under the conservatives poverty is

:59:50.:59:55.

increasing across the country. I saw many more rough sleepers on the

:59:56.:00:00.

streets of Edinburgh denies he ever on the streets of Birmingham, which

:00:01.:00:05.

is a much bigger city. On for school autonomy, I agree with New Clause

:00:06.:00:11.

one of the case for commission. The I have has had said that the SNP's

:00:12.:00:17.

plan would leave a sample of 6 billion black hole in Scotland. The

:00:18.:00:21.

separatists have absolutely no idea how to feel. A full independent

:00:22.:00:28.

review that labour Scotland for the get the facts. I think having

:00:29.:00:37.

listened to this debate, having I'll be forgiven for thinking that the

:00:38.:00:41.

SNP would rather invent rows with the rest of the UK didn't apply for

:00:42.:00:46.

people across Scotland. Their whole approach is designed to drive

:00:47.:00:50.

resentment of them blame everyone else for their failings. Instead of

:00:51.:00:53.

being held to account for the record, they want to blame the

:00:54.:00:57.

people down south for everything that goes wrong. Everything that

:00:58.:01:01.

goes right in Scotland, is down to the SNP. Error thing that goes

:01:02.:01:05.

wrong, down to the rest of us. The truth is, they are not interested in

:01:06.:01:09.

policy. They are successful at breaking of us. The truth is, they

:01:10.:01:12.

are not interested in policy. They are successful at breaking up the

:01:13.:01:14.

country for having the rejected in the referendum, they try to engineer

:01:15.:01:17.

the separation. Wanted to the English and undermining labour

:01:18.:01:21.

because they know they have more chance of a successful vote in a

:01:22.:01:25.

referendum with a Tovar government in place in Westminster. They are

:01:26.:01:29.

more interested in breaking a Britain that improving the health

:01:30.:01:33.

service, improving education, or providing housing for people in

:01:34.:01:38.

Scotland. It is much easier to blame everything on a supposedly wicked

:01:39.:01:41.

Westminster, then trying to use the powers that they have to improve

:01:42.:01:45.

things in Scotland. In fact, the last thing they want to do is solve

:01:46.:01:50.

the problems in education or health or housing. Then, they would not be

:01:51.:01:54.

able to stoke resentment, fuel girders, and blamed the nasty

:01:55.:02:02.

English for causing it. It is the perpetual that went. Blame everyone

:02:03.:02:05.

else for you fellas, and pretend that everything will be solved if

:02:06.:02:16.

only the country was broken up. In contrast to the last these, which

:02:17.:02:20.

was an ill-informed diatribe of criticism about the Scottish

:02:21.:02:24.

Government, hype right to address the bill that is before us today.

:02:25.:02:28.

I'm going to give what precious time that we have to speak in favour of

:02:29.:02:33.

the amendment 204. This amendment was introduced to the build a

:02:34.:02:38.

subsection of Clause 11 which would move the Human Rights Act from the

:02:39.:02:42.

list protected this provisions in the Scotland Act. This would have

:02:43.:02:45.

the effect of removing the Human Rights Act from the list of

:02:46.:02:50.

enactments, that cannot be defined by the Scottish Parliament. In the

:02:51.:02:53.

Scottish Parliament was able to modify the Human Rights Act, to

:02:54.:02:56.

allow the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament to fully

:02:57.:03:01.

establish a human rights regime and Scotland, regardless of where the

:03:02.:03:05.

Human Rights Act was appealed and the Parliament in London. This

:03:06.:03:10.

government, which has no mandate in London -- Scotland, has made clear

:03:11.:03:13.

that it is their intention to repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it

:03:14.:03:16.

with the Bill of Rights. They have made it clear that the scorn

:03:17.:03:23.

European and international norms of human rights and jurisdiction of the

:03:24.:03:25.

European courts, have made clear that they want to replace the Human

:03:26.:03:29.

Rights Act with a watered-down version of the rights and

:03:30.:03:32.

protection, was presently everybody in the UK enjoys. Without that in

:03:33.:03:41.

the Times yesterday. Would you not and Scotland want to have the terms

:03:42.:03:45.

of the debate on human rights and Scotland dictated by this

:03:46.:03:48.

Parliament. Because in Scotland, we have a very different agenda. There

:03:49.:03:54.

is no Man Tate and Scotland overbilling the Human Rights Act.

:03:55.:03:57.

Presuming that that's preserving that with the issue during the

:03:58.:04:04.

campaign. The Scottish National Party has consistently repeal the

:04:05.:04:11.

act, and as my friend has already said, we won the general election in

:04:12.:04:15.

Scotland. 11 includes labour and Liberal Democrats so representatives

:04:16.:04:23.

and Scotland, 58 and 59 Scottish in these polls to repeal the act. Last

:04:24.:04:34.

year, the Scottish Parliament voted by a the balls to ten volts to

:04:35.:04:39.

endorse the act. And civic society in Scotland from the FT UC, to the

:04:40.:04:43.

Church of Scotland are opposed to repealing the act. Nevertheless, the

:04:44.:04:49.

dish UK Government has repeatedly confirmed that they intend to go

:04:50.:04:52.

ahead to repeal the act, and they would apply equally in Scotland and

:04:53.:04:59.

England, Wales, and Arlen. And Scotland, we are very concerned by

:05:00.:05:02.

from the ministers of this government, which is just a believe

:05:03.:05:07.

that they could repeal the act without consulting the Scottish

:05:08.:05:12.

Parliament. Their arguments seems that they would not need a

:05:13.:05:17.

legislative consent motion. But that is incorrect. Human rights are not a

:05:18.:05:23.

reserved matter under the delusion sentiment. Protect the Human Rights

:05:24.:05:29.

Act against modification by the Scottish Parliament, the human

:05:30.:05:34.

rights per se are not the deferred matter. They are not listed assets

:05:35.:05:37.

of months they reserved matters set out in... . It was part of the late

:05:38.:05:44.

Donald Dewar's speech that all methods would be devolved, they were

:05:45.:05:49.

specifically reserves. Human rights are not specifically reserve. Human

:05:50.:05:55.

rights is bred into the Scotland Act. So that the Scottish Parliament

:05:56.:06:00.

and Scottish ministers cannot carry any legislative or act that is

:06:01.:06:05.

incompatible with European Commission human rights. I will make

:06:06.:06:12.

progress. Referred quite a lot from the honourable gentleman, these are

:06:13.:06:18.

important parts of grade concern to the Scottish electorate and I want

:06:19.:06:22.

to make very clear. In Scotland, we have an national election -- action

:06:23.:06:32.

plan for human rights, we have a United Nations commission. And our

:06:33.:06:37.

commitment to human rights extends not only to the, bait but beyond

:06:38.:06:42.

that the social economic rights. Do our part on social justice -- to our

:06:43.:06:54.

part on social justice, so I will give way... For her views. She read

:06:55.:06:58.

this and very important issues. But she is prejudging what the Secretary

:06:59.:07:02.

of State for Justice might bring before this House. It might be a

:07:03.:07:06.

beefed-up human rights regime that the Scottish people will want. It is

:07:07.:07:19.

hard to take that point seriously. Since we have been in this house,

:07:20.:07:24.

the judicious questioning of the Government front bench we have

:07:25.:07:28.

established that one of the Government front bench man concerned

:07:29.:07:31.

with Human Rights Act is a fear that they should have the take account of

:07:32.:07:36.

the decisions of the core. That is all the act says. And fitting that

:07:37.:07:42.

we want to take account of European and international norms, I can only

:07:43.:07:46.

assume that what they want to introduce to to Human Rights Act is

:07:47.:07:50.

something that been considerably watered-down from the EC HR. That is

:07:51.:07:58.

a logical deduction. , give way to the gentleman on the front bench.

:07:59.:08:07.

Thank you very much indeed. I want to make the point that I agree with

:08:08.:08:11.

her what she said about the Human Rights Act, but would she accept

:08:12.:08:15.

that what she says about Scotland also applies to Wales? I do. As our

:08:16.:08:24.

First Minister has made clear, it is our intention to do everything we

:08:25.:08:28.

can to preserve the Human Rights Act for the whole of the United Kingdom.

:08:29.:08:32.

In fact, if the government benches would recognise the human rights are

:08:33.:08:37.

not a reserved matter, and would recognise that there has to be a

:08:38.:08:40.

legislative consent motion, we may be able to help friends across this

:08:41.:08:47.

house. We would abuse a legislative consent to the Human Rights Act and

:08:48.:08:52.

that we will be one way of forgetting it for the whole of the

:08:53.:08:55.

United Kingdom. But the point of my speech today is to leave an

:08:56.:09:01.

amendment which gives the Scottish Parliament the option in the event

:09:02.:09:05.

that all our attempts failed to preserve the Human Rights Act for

:09:06.:09:08.

the whole of the UK. The point of this amendment is to give the

:09:09.:09:12.

Scottish Parliament the chance to fully implement a replacement for

:09:13.:09:18.

the act and Scotland. My concern is this. The government has said

:09:19.:09:21.

repeatedly that they do not recognise the human rights pride of

:09:22.:09:26.

all matter. They said they are reserve. So we have to have a

:09:27.:09:31.

fallback position in Scotland. I the government to remember their respect

:09:32.:09:38.

agenda. Resume to remember and to go back to the Scotland Act with some

:09:39.:09:42.

decent lawyers and look at it carefully and they will see that

:09:43.:09:45.

human rights are not a reserved matter, and that they had devolved.

:09:46.:09:50.

That is a very sizeable body of academic opinion that supports that.

:09:51.:09:56.

The purpose of this of him at 204, is to recognise that when it comes

:09:57.:10:03.

to the proper priorities of... The respect agenda with Steve Prime

:10:04.:10:06.

Minister had spoken of often in the past is consigned to the dustbin of

:10:07.:10:09.

history, along with the assurance that Scotland is an equal partner is

:10:10.:10:13.

a beginning in, and various other promises. Have made it clear that it

:10:14.:10:21.

is a prime intention and the SNP to fight to retain the Human Rights Act

:10:22.:10:25.

for the whole of the UK. However, the disrespect with our previous

:10:26.:10:32.

amendment have been met, and the bridge and exclusion of all Scottish

:10:33.:10:36.

MPs from the joint committee of human rights, makes me and my

:10:37.:10:44.

colleagues gives us no confidence that we will be respected by this

:10:45.:10:51.

Parliament. From a sedentary position, the conservative backbench

:10:52.:10:56.

responding to her point about the SNP being excluded from the human

:10:57.:11:03.

rights committee, saying good. My she take the opportunity to take an

:11:04.:11:07.

intervention on the judgement so he can explain why the party that

:11:08.:11:11.

represents almost all constituencies in Scotland should be excluded from

:11:12.:11:18.

the important committee? I am grateful for him bringing that to

:11:19.:11:23.

attach a. I will be delighted to take the intervention. And to hear

:11:24.:11:27.

why this Honorable member, who I believe is a lawyer of sorts, thinks

:11:28.:11:35.

it is acceptable for all Scottish MPs to be included from the joint

:11:36.:11:39.

committee. Will he tell us and the people of Scotland why he thinks

:11:40.:11:45.

that? What is important is that we have sensible lawyers on the

:11:46.:11:50.

committee. The lady keep stating that is not reserved matter. It is a

:11:51.:11:55.

very obvious reserved matter to the UK Parliament. That is my point. I

:11:56.:12:04.

am sure the viewers in Scotland who are watching now and the people who

:12:05.:12:08.

will read this debate tomorrow will be very interested to hear what the

:12:09.:12:13.

Honorable member has just said. And other interested to hear he thinks

:12:14.:12:21.

it is acceptable to all be elected a of the Scottish electorate are

:12:22.:12:24.

excluded from a joint committee of this house, whose purpose it is to

:12:25.:12:30.

scrutinize bills of this house for human rights compliance. The six

:12:31.:12:44.

unelected from of Lords... I am sure he will. I think what his

:12:45.:12:53.

intervention indicates an underlining. The very reality of the

:12:54.:12:59.

concerned that we have on the side of the House, that the wishes of the

:13:00.:13:04.

Scottish electorate in relation to the preservation of the Human Rights

:13:05.:13:07.

Act, would not be respected. I reiterate that we wish to meet,

:13:08.:13:13.

cause with the Labour Party, the liberal Dems, member from Northern

:13:14.:13:17.

Ireland, and members from every side of the House to preserve the Human

:13:18.:13:20.

Rights Act for the whole of the United Kingdom. I want to, we want

:13:21.:13:33.

to. I said we. Our primary position is that we intend to preserve the

:13:34.:13:37.

act for the whole of this UK. However, the purpose of this

:13:38.:13:42.

amendment is to give us the option to be sure that we can implement...

:13:43.:13:49.

In the event that were not successful at keeping it for the

:13:50.:13:59.

whole of the UK. Lasher, the Prime Minister said the Smith commission

:14:00.:14:13.

to the kick-off party... Ensuring that devolution could not be

:14:14.:14:16.

enforced at the Westminster government. Therefore, I know from

:14:17.:14:23.

the UK governments... The provision should have been included in the

:14:24.:14:27.

exception of the Scotland bill. Better late than never. The Smith

:14:28.:14:35.

commission also reports dated that the commission... Unfortunately, the

:14:36.:14:39.

UK governments proposals in this area all for far short of Smith.

:14:40.:14:43.

Despite the ministers promised to... The UK governments current

:14:44.:14:49.

cause and Parliament would not normally... The governments current

:14:50.:14:58.

position on this method is ridiculous and risk weakening not

:14:59.:15:03.

strengthening the convention. The Smith commission report. The bulk of

:15:04.:15:06.

government that they will not normally legislate in about every is

:15:07.:15:10.

will not suffice. There is a serious concerns that this is president. I

:15:11.:15:19.

can already see where this is where the government encourages to abide

:15:20.:15:24.

areas and Scotland. ... Housing is not. It is devolved to Scottish

:15:25.:15:29.

Parliament. Part of the Immigration Bill, the UK Government want to

:15:30.:15:32.

introduce the right to bring. This will compel landlords and tenants

:15:33.:15:43.

status of. The UK Government will be sent to Scotland to secondary

:15:44.:15:46.

legislation, without a legislative consent of the motion. Debated and

:15:47.:15:51.

passed by the Scottish Parliament. For the more consultation, the

:15:52.:15:57.

Scottish Government... Is said to have been brushed and extremely

:15:58.:16:00.

limited. The Scottish Government are very concerned and this development

:16:01.:16:05.

and the Minister asked for a meeting on this. Has replied he said,

:16:06.:16:16.

overlay to immigration the soloist is not the ball so far. That want to

:16:17.:16:20.

set these measures restrict access to housing. We have artist of the

:16:21.:16:27.

housing is very much devolved. So much for the respect agenda. Much

:16:28.:16:37.

lauded by Prime Minister Cameron. In regard to question the commission on

:16:38.:16:40.

effective the thing as pragmatic and ensure that Elizabeth the Smith

:16:41.:16:44.

commission recommendation. The UK Government approach to policymaking

:16:45.:16:50.

can be jealous. Data but a double for this than the Conservatives must

:16:51.:16:53.

should desire to abolish the Human Rights Act. He is making a

:16:54.:17:03.

compelling argument. Legalizing... I do say to him that if he wishes to

:17:04.:17:09.

push the cause -- cost to vote in a few minutes, will be happy to

:17:10.:17:12.

support him on that. Otherwise, I'm afraid it would go down to the other

:17:13.:17:18.

place to deal with. I appreciate the shadow secretary's answer. I'll that

:17:19.:17:24.

I will my colleagues. The Human Rights Act is vital to as many ways.

:17:25.:17:28.

Good the right life, freedom. Freedom of thought and belief. Right

:17:29.:17:37.

to family life and private life. Right to free elections in education

:17:38.:17:42.

to name a few. Human Rights Act extends to all public authorities of

:17:43.:17:49.

Scotland and local governments. Amendment 204 would absolutely be

:17:50.:17:53.

without that without the bald possibilities for human rights and

:17:54.:17:55.

Scottish Parliament to safeguard human rights. The potential

:17:56.:18:03.

abolition of the Human Rights Act will have... Would be an affront to

:18:04.:18:06.

democracy at the conservative government use slender majority in

:18:07.:18:13.

order to abolish the ad. And the cost of God the UK Government to

:18:14.:18:18.

seek a legislative consent motion and all essences of was Mr. Also

:18:19.:18:26.

apply in the UK Government to set up with the government under

:18:27.:18:29.

legislation to make such an impact in Scotland. No confidence in the

:18:30.:18:35.

last election. And parted that were wimpy in Scotland has rejected each

:18:36.:18:39.

every amendment that has been before. And group that has 95% of

:18:40.:18:43.

Scotland MPs. That that's the question... Ultimately rejected. The

:18:44.:18:54.

conservatives must not ducking and diving one of the bill and stop

:18:55.:18:57.

playing games with Scotland's pair of. The people of Scotland by

:18:58.:19:00.

watching and it's time they are listened to. Are brought to support

:19:01.:19:09.

New Clause 36, which will give parish to Scotland. If it is Friday

:19:10.:19:16.

is mature respect, we're told is, then the Scottish Parliament elected

:19:17.:19:19.

by the Scottish people up at the right to determine its own destiny.

:19:20.:19:25.

The Secretary of State know the other members will be familiar with

:19:26.:19:30.

the words of Lord Cooper from 1953, when he stated that the principle of

:19:31.:19:36.

unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinguished English principle

:19:37.:19:40.

which is not come to buy and Scottish Constitutional Law. In

:19:41.:19:43.

other words, it is the people of Scotland who have solved on. Would

:19:44.:19:49.

come to this house with a mandate from the people of Scotland and a

:19:50.:19:53.

half to be respected. A message to the government benches opposite is

:19:54.:19:56.

that you do the English board for English lords. I thank the

:19:57.:20:03.

gentleman. He stands in front of another distinguished by Honorable

:20:04.:20:05.

member from this house. Does he agree with the member that last

:20:06.:20:11.

years referendum was a once in a generation of there? Yes or no? I

:20:12.:20:17.

always agree we'll my right honourable friend for Gordon, but

:20:18.:20:21.

the point is the Scottish people that are added this Parliament. We

:20:22.:20:25.

have to reflect upon is what is happening in this bill. We were

:20:26.:20:30.

promised the bow to the max. As close to federalism as we could get.

:20:31.:20:36.

It is this house and the government benches that are elected the people

:20:37.:20:40.

of Scotland and the people of Scotland will reflect upon that. I

:20:41.:20:49.

was enjoyed by both friends and favourite making his passionate

:20:50.:20:53.

speeches. For the sake of clarity, that he read the second line of what

:20:54.:20:58.

the Prime Minister said in regard to federalism? Element-the point is

:20:59.:21:02.

that the Scottish people were promised by Gordon Brown that they

:21:03.:21:04.

were going to get parish for purpose. They're going to have a

:21:05.:21:10.

fair house Parliament. Has not been delivered tonight. I do see the

:21:11.:21:17.

Secretary of State saying it is. 70%... Are going to be held at

:21:18.:21:23.

Westminster. A 5% of fans over welfare are going to be held here at

:21:24.:21:27.

Westminster. Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not know what that is, but it is

:21:28.:21:33.

not a powerhouse of Parliament. In light of the challenges that we

:21:34.:21:38.

face, with the credit cuts that which we will debate in the second

:21:39.:21:41.

part tonight, we need to make sure that the Scottish Parliament have to

:21:42.:21:47.

power to protect the people of Scotland. And we said to the Labour

:21:48.:21:51.

Party, come with us, show that resolved to make sure that we can

:21:52.:21:55.

protect the people that we need to in the country of Scotland. If the

:21:56.:22:03.

gentleman is truly passionate about protecting the people of Scotland,

:22:04.:22:06.

he will no doubt get to his feet until December and the people of

:22:07.:22:09.

Scotland that he will restore any losses to tax credits for the

:22:10.:22:13.

Scottish people, has committed to by the Scottish Labour Party. The

:22:14.:22:16.

Scottish National Party has shown... Over the last two years

:22:17.:22:22.

that we saw to litigate the cuts that have come from Westminster.

:22:23.:22:27.

Hundred million pounds has been invested to discuss people to offset

:22:28.:22:31.

the impacts of the bedroom tax. Will fight to defend the interests of the

:22:32.:22:35.

Scottish people, as we have always done. A lot of money house that I

:22:36.:22:42.

like the Labour Party in the benches next newest. We are not prepared to

:22:43.:22:49.

give up the fight on tax credits. Has been rejected by the Lord, but

:22:50.:22:54.

the Scottish Parliament is not... Ruled try to make that has credits

:22:55.:23:00.

are I left off. I am grateful for the humble lady. Is about the

:23:01.:23:05.

kindness aside and what we will strive to do. And Scotland, we

:23:06.:23:10.

believe not and welfare, but Social Security. We believe in offering

:23:11.:23:14.

protection to people of. We also believe in the principle that

:23:15.:23:17.

society is a strong as its weakest link. At very different concept to

:23:18.:23:21.

what we have in the parliament with the cuts that are coming to and

:23:22.:23:25.

because that would not going to come any Autumn Statement. I say to this

:23:26.:23:32.

house, will you respect the sovereignty of the Scottish people

:23:33.:23:35.

who sent us here to the south? I go to ignore the wishes of the Scottish

:23:36.:23:41.

people? I would say to ordinary members opposite, you have been

:23:42.:23:46.

rejected wholesale on the ballot box in Scotland. Thing very carefully

:23:47.:23:51.

before deciding a detailed, with an all-purpose it will be an English

:23:52.:23:54.

beat to it in Scotland. Perhaps in this regard, the question we should

:23:55.:24:00.

put to the Secretary of State, is he Scotland man in the Cabinet? Or is

:24:01.:24:05.

he the cabinets man in Scotland? The Secretary of State should do the

:24:06.:24:09.

honourable thing, except her amendments, and stand up for the

:24:10.:24:13.

people Scotland. What is it to be? And what about the Labour Party?

:24:14.:24:21.

Eparchy that once dominated the political last scheduled Scotland.

:24:22.:24:25.

Maybe not quite yet extinct like the dodo, but more like a beached whale.

:24:26.:24:30.

Jealous that you want to protect Scotland. If you want to make a

:24:31.:24:33.

difference in Scotland, our amendments tonight but will you be

:24:34.:24:41.

siding with their colleagues? Weber need to start learning lessons that

:24:42.:24:44.

Scotland rejected them for a reason. You better start to get on the side

:24:45.:24:48.

with us and the people of Scotland. Tonight is the chance for the House

:24:49.:24:52.

that Scotland expects to be delivered. And the Scotland destiny

:24:53.:25:00.

and Scotland chance. Not by voting for a bill that leaves us with a

:25:01.:25:05.

hand tied behind our back, wide for government that is worse to

:25:06.:25:10.

disadvantage our society. But in this MM and others, allows us to

:25:11.:25:14.

deliver in the interest of our people. We need a Parliament that

:25:15.:25:17.

will allow us to stand up for the people of Scotland and recognised

:25:18.:25:21.

that people are sovereign. Let me finish by quoting Charles Parnell,

:25:22.:25:29.

no man has the right to take the battery to a... No man has the right

:25:30.:25:38.

to... And no further. It is in this context, that we need power to

:25:39.:25:42.

determine and Scotland when and if we want to have a referendum. It is

:25:43.:25:44.

in this contact that behalf should The acid test of this bill is

:25:45.:26:03.

whether it it delivers on the recommendations of the Smith

:26:04.:26:05.

commission. Objectively, assuming with all the amendments the

:26:06.:26:08.

government has put forward, we believe that a bill that we have

:26:09.:26:14.

before us goes a long way to delivering on the Smith commission.

:26:15.:26:19.

Enough to say that the government has delivered on absolutely

:26:20.:26:21.

everything, not to say. They clearly have not. I have to say it is on

:26:22.:26:26.

this government that have come to this point, kicking and screaming.

:26:27.:26:33.

To begin the report of the Smith commission of November 2014, the

:26:34.:26:36.

government has had a long and painful journey. Nowhere is the

:26:37.:26:41.

government's change of heart were clear than its own amendment, New

:26:42.:26:47.

Clause 12. During the beginning stage it is constantly argued on

:26:48.:26:50.

this side of the House to Scottish Parliament and the Scottish

:26:51.:26:54.

government, or to be described as a permanent part of UK's tossed

:26:55.:27:00.

additional arrangements. We argued that the phrase, recognises

:27:01.:27:05.

permanent was less than what was recommended by the Smith commission

:27:06.:27:07.

and that after Scottish Parliament Constitution that the committee

:27:08.:27:13.

argued directly. The use of a phrase recognised as permanent had the

:27:14.:27:17.

effect of weakening the Smith recommendation. I am pleased that

:27:18.:27:21.

the government has listened. Some I think that this is all about

:27:22.:27:27.

constitutional navel-gazing. But it is an extremely important point that

:27:28.:27:31.

the Scottish Parliament is placed on a farm constitutional footing and

:27:32.:27:35.

has the sovereignty of a Parliament, rest of the people of

:27:36.:27:40.

Scotland. However, a question for the Secretary of State. If only the

:27:41.:27:46.

issue of the UK's parliamentary sovereignty. We all know the classic

:27:47.:27:50.

area of UK parliamentary sovereignty is stated in the introduction to the

:27:51.:27:55.

law of the Constitution. According to this classic game, Parliament can

:27:56.:28:01.

make a law on any subject that it chooses and there are no fundamental

:28:02.:28:10.

laws that restrict its powers. The government's New Clause 12 is how it

:28:11.:28:12.

suggests, a departure from that theory and that is something that I

:28:13.:28:17.

would look at. With GE agree with me that apart from the boss 12, we are

:28:18.:28:25.

making moderate but significant constitutional history -- would he

:28:26.:28:29.

agree with me that in New Clause 12. This is essentially technically do

:28:30.:28:35.

not technical in nature, but on the issue of elections I would like to

:28:36.:28:38.

refer richly to amendments are to seven and 43. -- refer briefly. Of

:28:39.:28:46.

course... Any part of democracy on free and open elections. Namely

:28:47.:28:56.

government Clause 13 and causes 45 233. ... The government has the need

:28:57.:29:03.

to involve some of the responsibilities of the electoral

:29:04.:29:09.

commission to see that political parties are an amended so that the

:29:10.:29:13.

functions of electoral commissions are with regard to the electoral

:29:14.:29:22.

Scottish Parliament. Clause 43. With regard to so-called digital service.

:29:23.:29:26.

As I understand it, this relates to the ability to register online for

:29:27.:29:31.

the electoral register. This is very important, given the introduction of

:29:32.:29:34.

individual electoral registration. But I would ask the Minister for

:29:35.:29:38.

clarification on two points. Firstly, of those the reference of

:29:39.:29:49.

Scottish ministers... Is replete in Clause 43. I would appreciate if the

:29:50.:29:53.

government would explain what exactly is this negative procedure

:29:54.:29:56.

and how it would work copy that is my first question. The second

:29:57.:30:01.

question is with regard to the online registration system, is it

:30:02.:30:03.

possible that there could be confusion about which electors are

:30:04.:30:07.

able to vote in which elections? The Scottish Parliament am a quite

:30:08.:30:15.

frankly, has decided the for 16-17 -year-old for all Scottish

:30:16.:30:19.

elections. These individuals will be denied a vote in Westminster

:30:20.:30:21.

elections. Is that not a danger that it could be widespread confusion,

:30:22.:30:26.

particularly of the online registration technology is being

:30:27.:30:28.

used for both Westminster and Scottish elections? Now, Madam

:30:29.:30:35.

Deputy Speaker, implying pleased that the government has a similar

:30:36.:30:39.

debate that had taken place as far as Clause 12 is concerned, I am

:30:40.:30:46.

disappointed that the government has not brought forward amendment on the

:30:47.:30:50.

school convention and its working -- Sewell convention. We argued, as did

:30:51.:30:57.

the SNP, that we were concerned of the interpretation of the Sewell

:30:58.:31:00.

convention. Concerned about general default competence. -- devolved.

:31:01.:31:05.

There is impotence of the word normally. As I said during the

:31:06.:31:08.

committee stage, how long is a piece of string? The word normally is

:31:09.:31:13.

legally imprecise and that is why we are moving amendment seven, eight,

:31:14.:31:23.

nine, and ten. The name of the right honourable member was put forward in

:31:24.:31:27.

a minute, but sadly cannot be rehearsed today. Numbered New Clause

:31:28.:31:32.

35, in the name of the honourable Member for Moray, sticks to place on

:31:33.:31:41.

putting. We are happy to give a new laws our support if he pushes it to

:31:42.:31:49.

a vote. If we are supporting a member for New Clause 35, we are

:31:50.:31:52.

certainly not supporting his New Clause 36. This relates to future

:31:53.:31:58.

referendums on Scottish independence. A statement to the

:31:59.:32:03.

press over the weekend, the honourable Member for Moray said,

:32:04.:32:10.

they called him whether or not Scott in -- Scotland is a referendum in

:32:11.:32:12.

the future should be up to the people and in the hands of the

:32:13.:32:15.

Scottish Parliament rather than the UK Parliament. I will give way. The

:32:16.:32:20.

Smith commission, Clause 18, it is agreed that nothing in this report

:32:21.:32:24.

coming from an independent country, in the future should the people of

:32:25.:32:27.

Scotland so choose a copy of the people of Scotland did not have the

:32:28.:32:30.

power to choose, how is that Clause to stand the test of time? Hear,

:32:31.:32:32.

hear! I might be slightly mistaken, but I

:32:33.:32:37.

thought the Scottish people had making the decision. It is a very

:32:38.:32:47.

wear and firm decision. If there is a move towards having a referendum

:32:48.:32:50.

in the future, I will give way in a second... In terms of the history of

:32:51.:32:56.

this. The referendum happen in September and the Smith commission,

:32:57.:33:01.

which this is a direct quote from, happened after that. So all parties

:33:02.:33:04.

decided that nothing to prevent Scotland from coming independent if

:33:05.:33:08.

it does so wish. Yet here it is trying to do exactly that. Hear,

:33:09.:33:10.

hear! No one is in content to give the

:33:11.:33:19.

people of Scotland anything. I would remind him that there was a

:33:20.:33:22.

prominent member of the SNP that said the globe do not gold plating

:33:23.:33:31.

was out... The situation exists that the Scottish Parliament has the

:33:32.:33:33.

power to have a referendum. What this amendment seeks to do is take

:33:34.:33:40.

away the caveats which are based on discussion, which are all the more

:33:41.:33:46.

reasonable format. I will give way. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I am

:33:47.:33:49.

grateful to him for giving way. Would you agree with me that this

:33:50.:33:51.

obsession with organising and other referendum proves a central point

:33:52.:33:55.

that has been made by myself and other in this debate, which is that

:33:56.:33:59.

there must more interested in breaking up written than getting on

:34:00.:34:04.

and delivering for the people of Scotland and improving the health

:34:05.:34:07.

service and the education system, and providing the homes that people

:34:08.:34:10.

Scotland need -- breaking up written? I couldn't agree more.

:34:11.:34:17.

Sensually devolution is not about partnership, divorce, separation,

:34:18.:34:25.

breaking a Briton. It is about establishing partnership. So the

:34:26.:34:27.

people of Britain can't work together in a harmonious way. I will

:34:28.:34:31.

give way again, for the third time. It sounded like he said the Scottish

:34:32.:34:35.

Parliament has the power to call a referendum. It does not have the

:34:36.:34:39.

power. That is why we want to give it the power with our amendment.

:34:40.:34:46.

What the amendment essentially seeks to do is to take away the caveats.

:34:47.:34:49.

The caveats are essential in defining the partnership. It is not

:34:50.:34:56.

simply the question of the Scottish Parliament deciding that it by

:34:57.:35:01.

itself wants to do it. I give way yet again. Oh I am very grateful to

:35:02.:35:05.

be honourable gentleman. He is a very gracious with his time. This is

:35:06.:35:08.

an important point because it does come down to the issue as to whether

:35:09.:35:12.

or not the Scottish people are electing a government that wants to

:35:13.:35:14.

have a referendum of independence, has the power to do so. If you do

:35:15.:35:19.

not accept our amendment tonight, that power resides with Westminster.

:35:20.:35:21.

It does not resign with the Scottish people, it does not reside with the

:35:22.:35:25.

Scottish Parliament. Has got nothing to do with caveats. I think it is

:35:26.:35:31.

very sad indeed for people of Scotland, that there is an obsession

:35:32.:35:35.

with having a referendum at all costs. I've given away four times

:35:36.:35:50.

already. The situation is... We are not prepared to have a referendum,

:35:51.:35:56.

not prepared to have the Constitution be hijacked by this

:35:57.:35:59.

issue of a referendum. To try to maneuver the situation which it can

:36:00.:36:04.

have a break-up of the UK. That it's not what devolution is all about.

:36:05.:36:09.

That is valid the Smith commission is all about. It is about the people

:36:10.:36:14.

working together. If I can make a little bit of progress, if I may.

:36:15.:36:20.

The fact is that these issues are not dry constitutional issues, but

:36:21.:36:25.

had impact on everyday life about what is happening in Scotland with

:36:26.:36:29.

regard to be trade union bill -- the right constitutional issues. Under

:36:30.:36:32.

the Sewell convention, there is need for a legislative of emotion. --

:36:33.:36:40.

consent motion. If it is to apply in Scotland and any DeVault area.

:36:41.:36:43.

According to a strict legal interpretation, the bill coming

:36:44.:36:49.

before the House seeks to amend the trade union and labour consolidation

:36:50.:36:57.

at 1992. Therefore it is argued that is not involve areas of devolved

:36:58.:37:01.

competence. However in practical terms, during very much areas of

:37:02.:37:07.

devolved competence, by placing requirements on local authorities in

:37:08.:37:10.

Scotland. It is wrong we would argue that the UK government is able to

:37:11.:37:15.

legislate from devolved authorities in this way. That is why all labour

:37:16.:37:22.

councils in Scotland, and by the SNP, have agreed a stance on

:37:23.:37:26.

noncompliance. The Westminster government has not sought a

:37:27.:37:30.

legislative consent motion from the Scottish Parliament, but Labour will

:37:31.:37:32.

bring forth a legislative consent motion in order to the nightly build

:37:33.:37:39.

up confidence of a Scotland devolved service. I mentioned local

:37:40.:37:44.

authorities. I would like to draw attention of the House as I have

:37:45.:37:50.

already done on a number of occasions, to New Clause seven,

:37:51.:37:55.

eight, and nine. In the name of honourable member for Nottingham.

:37:56.:37:58.

These amendments made the point that two supporters of devolution, the

:37:59.:38:01.

power should reside to the most appropriate level as close to be

:38:02.:38:06.

people as possible. They recognise that there is a real issue in

:38:07.:38:09.

Scotland, that discusses government seems to many people to be more

:38:10.:38:15.

concerned about exercising power itself, rather than empowering

:38:16.:38:20.

people in their local communities. The SNP claim to be good Europeans,

:38:21.:38:25.

but I am afraid that they shall very little practical support for helping

:38:26.:38:28.

a European principle of bringing power closer to be people. You have

:38:29.:38:34.

a chance to put it right tonight. As was noted when we discussed it in

:38:35.:38:37.

committee of the whole house, part two of the bill evolves new powers

:38:38.:38:42.

to Scotland over income tax and other taxes. The Scottish government

:38:43.:38:47.

will happen so over it income tax rates and thresholds and complete

:38:48.:38:51.

freedom over the levels of which those rates and thresholds are set

:38:52.:39:02.

-- full power over. ... Income tax over 2013-14. That effect

:39:03.:39:12.

considerable sum. A degree of response ability on the Scottish

:39:13.:39:16.

Parliament. If they wish the Scottish Parliament, whatever its

:39:17.:39:21.

political complexion, would increase liability could. Scottish Labour has

:39:22.:39:24.

already said out how we would use those new powers. We would reset the

:39:25.:39:29.

additional rate to 50 pants, so that those who aren't over ?150,000

:39:30.:39:37.

contribute a little more, as I think most fair-minded individuals would

:39:38.:39:40.

agree that they could afford to do -- 50 pants. We would not implement

:39:41.:39:47.

the government's plans to increase the higher rate threshold. Instead

:39:48.:39:56.

we would... Estimated to be over ?44 billion, a part of the UK

:39:57.:39:59.

government's work penalty. That is tax credit cut. This decision will

:40:00.:40:05.

benefit a quarter of a million Scottish families who are now he's

:40:06.:40:12.

having to pay ?1300 a year because of this government. That is an

:40:13.:40:15.

example of what can be done with new powers if we have the courage and

:40:16.:40:20.

conviction and the political will to use them correctly. We, as Labour

:40:21.:40:29.

members, support these powers and so it will come as no surprise that we

:40:30.:40:34.

remain utterly convinced by amendment two to four from the SNP.

:40:35.:40:40.

This amendment would go beyond and that will be Scottish Parliament to

:40:41.:40:46.

remove reservations and taxation, borrowing and public expenditure --

:40:47.:40:50.

amendment 224. We have learned over the last few minutes how confused

:40:51.:41:02.

the SNP are on this issue of FFA, fiscal devolution on autonomy. The

:41:03.:41:06.

confusion was clearly shown during the committee stage of this bill

:41:07.:41:10.

when I asked that economics spokesman, the future as think the

:41:11.:41:15.

government would increase operation times -- SNP government? The

:41:16.:41:18.

response was yes. A future labour government would increase it.

:41:19.:41:27.

Decrease it, keep it the same, but use amendment in way. In other

:41:28.:41:30.

words, the SNP are totally utterly confused. Is taxation of powers for

:41:31.:41:36.

the sake of it, not for what they want to do with it. It is simply not

:41:37.:41:43.

thought out. I will give way. Does he, Ira for to his own New Clause

:41:44.:41:49.

one. Do I take it now because the Labour Party would want to have an

:41:50.:41:52.

independent commission look at fiscal autonomy that they are

:41:53.:41:58.

increasingly open-minded about a? And does he think this removes

:41:59.:42:02.

mentality in Scotland, if they had to take forward the decisions it

:42:03.:42:09.

will be difficult for them to blame the UK? We believe that the facts

:42:10.:42:12.

should be allowed to speak for themselves. It is our view that the

:42:13.:42:16.

case has not been made and cannot be made. But what we will do not want

:42:17.:42:21.

to see is a transpiring independent body who will come to that

:42:22.:42:25.

conclusion. We are confident that they will. I will give way. I am

:42:26.:42:30.

grateful to the honourable member for giving way. Would he not agree

:42:31.:42:34.

with the shadow Chancellor who also walked through those lobbies with

:42:35.:42:38.

us, for full fiscal autonomy earlier this year? He did it for his own

:42:39.:42:44.

reasons and for different reasons. LAUGHTER

:42:45.:42:48.

But for me, what was really obvious and to most telling thing was that

:42:49.:42:53.

it was the Tory right and be SNP nationalists who are as one. English

:42:54.:42:58.

nationalism and Scottish nationalism together! That I thought looked the

:42:59.:43:07.

most telling point. They went through, the Nationalists and the

:43:08.:43:13.

extreme right, says it all. I will give way. I think my honourable

:43:14.:43:23.

friend for giving way to copy I know it means a student of history. You

:43:24.:43:29.

would know there is a test... Of political institutions. It is about

:43:30.:43:33.

the practical fat that institutions make. Would he agree it would be

:43:34.:43:37.

useful to know from the SNP what rightly they intend to do with these

:43:38.:43:41.

powers? Yes indeed. The rhetoric as we have heard this afternoon. Strong

:43:42.:43:52.

on rhetoric. Not from us longer I suspect, because the Scottish people

:43:53.:43:56.

will rumble when they go beneath you rhetoric and find that there is

:43:57.:44:02.

little substance of there. He is very generous. But could just be

:44:03.:44:07.

that the Tory right he described it, and the labour chattel Chancellor --

:44:08.:44:14.

shadow Chancellor both recognise that the one way to defeat

:44:15.:44:17.

nationalism is actually to have a real Parliament in Scotland, with

:44:18.:44:22.

full power over what it taxes and spends? And at that stage the SNP

:44:23.:44:26.

would have to take response ability for their own actions, they would

:44:27.:44:34.

become a grown-up political party? One of the key reasons why we are

:44:35.:44:40.

broadly in support of what the government are belatedly proposing

:44:41.:44:43.

is that we believe that we will give new responsibilities to the Scottish

:44:44.:44:48.

Parliament to achieve, or try to achieve, substantial things on

:44:49.:44:50.

behalf of the Scottish people. At think it is the case to say. The

:44:51.:44:55.

response ability and power global together. That is why these

:44:56.:45:02.

measures, I stand forward. And moment ago he expressed surprise

:45:03.:45:05.

that the SNP and Tory right were bolting together on full fiscal

:45:06.:45:10.

autonomy. News as to why he would be surprised, given that he was their

:45:11.:45:13.

SNP who brought down the labour government... Hear, hear!

:45:14.:45:21.

I don't know what she is shopping for, given that she wasn't until

:45:22.:45:28.

very recently a Tory herself! 18 years of Thatcherism and all the

:45:29.:45:33.

problems for which are now whingeing. LAUGHTER

:45:34.:45:41.

That is all I would say, it is likelier, isn't it? -- quite clear.

:45:42.:45:48.

That have been humbled. Progress in a slightly more sedated manner, as I

:45:49.:45:58.

may. Clause one established an independent commission on full

:45:59.:46:01.

fiscal autonomy to scrutinize the potential on Scotland's economy and

:46:02.:46:08.

public finances. The New Clause will require the Secretary of State for

:46:09.:46:13.

Scotland to establish an independent commission... At first appointed in

:46:14.:46:17.

consultation of a Treasury select committee and Scottish affairs

:46:18.:46:20.

committee. And they will publish a report by the 31st of March, 2016,

:46:21.:46:26.

setting an analysis objective we in ferry of the full policy implement a

:46:27.:46:33.

full fiscal autonomy -- fairly. Could I say that this is also

:46:34.:46:38.

another important issue. If we moved to amendment 27 and 29, these were

:46:39.:46:44.

replaced an additional ?5 billion of reserves under direct control of the

:46:45.:46:49.

Scottish Parliament, by assigning 100% of Scottish revenues

:46:50.:46:53.

understanding and reduced rate to the Scottish Parliament, as opposed

:46:54.:46:59.

to be 50% B bill currently allows for. Of course under regulations, do

:47:00.:47:08.

not allow for differential rates in the same state. The actual setting

:47:09.:47:13.

of VAT would have to remain a reserve copy however this is not an

:47:14.:47:16.

argument against assigning the revenues generated in Scotland to be

:47:17.:47:20.

Scottish consolidated. As was said at the report states, and I quote"

:47:21.:47:24.

given that the Scottish Government have no control over VAT, might sign

:47:25.:47:32.

on behalf of a? Why not find all of it? Be Scottish Parliament could

:47:33.:47:35.

then write the benefit. If there is a benefit from the entire rise of

:47:36.:47:39.

VAT in Scotland, rather than just half of it, and we take

:47:40.:47:41.

responsibility if it was a shortfall. Not for half of that

:47:42.:47:46.

shortfall copy that would be a good thing." Those were not my comments,

:47:47.:47:51.

Madam Deputy Speaker. But the comments of another member of the

:47:52.:47:56.

opposition. They are the comments of the honourable member for Dundee

:47:57.:48:00.

East, who also happens to be the SNP's economy spokesperson. Very

:48:01.:48:05.

odd, given his full-blooded support for devolving 100% of VAT. The SNP

:48:06.:48:10.

has not actually got the amendment would would produce this effect.

:48:11.:48:16.

When the Labour Party table an amendment are doing that, do you

:48:17.:48:20.

think the honourable member welcomed it? No, they did not. Is that they

:48:21.:48:24.

issued a press release in which the honourable member for Dundee East

:48:25.:48:32.

himself denounced a proposal as a " gimmick". I don't think it is a

:48:33.:48:37.

gimmick, and I don't think the people of Scotland would either.

:48:38.:48:46.

Onto New Clause four. New income tax powers in Scotland. Guard against

:48:47.:48:49.

unintended and negative consequences for charities. And deputy speaker,

:48:50.:48:57.

this is worth over ?1 billion a year to charities in over 100 medium

:48:58.:49:00.

pounds in Gotland. Any moving operation must therefore be closely

:49:01.:49:06.

guarded against -- ?100 million in Scotland. Because seed with this is

:49:07.:49:14.

that get 80s UK wide, linked to tax may and predicated on a single tax

:49:15.:49:19.

structure -- gift aid. I would welcome this response. Any assurance

:49:20.:49:22.

which he could provide the charities on Gotland in this issue of gift

:49:23.:49:28.

aid. New Clause 11. Would require the Secretary of State to labour for

:49:29.:49:34.

the House... A full record including minutes of meetings and

:49:35.:49:38.

correspondence and ministerial level of discussions, between the

:49:39.:49:42.

Secretary of State the Treasury and the Scottish ministers, regarding

:49:43.:49:44.

and unbudgeted expenditure to be voted by the parliament. Before it

:49:45.:49:48.

gave authorisation of payment to grasp to be Scottish

:49:49.:49:55.

consolidated... We would be happy to work with the Scottish Parliament

:49:56.:50:01.

with such a report. It is similarly in the gift of the Scottish

:50:02.:50:04.

government to produce their own report, and I hope they would share

:50:05.:50:09.

it with us as well. That what we would have regular updates as to the

:50:10.:50:11.

health of the negotiations which take place currently to a largest

:50:12.:50:16.

man, behind closed doors. The purpose of this Clause is to ensure

:50:17.:50:22.

that Pearcy and accountability for processes leading to the annual

:50:23.:50:25.

settlement between Treasury and be Scottish ministers -- transparency.

:50:26.:50:34.

Because is worth noting that the Scottish Parliament's finance

:50:35.:50:42.

committee the -- Jon Young produced a report. ... Is critical and

:50:43.:50:52.

described as taking waste "below the radar". It is said the

:50:53.:50:56.

recommendations should be said "more formal and transparent". The

:50:57.:51:01.

committee also recognise a consideration should beginning to

:51:02.:51:04.

establish an independent body to advise the cancellation of a back

:51:05.:51:08.

rent and to establishing an independent arbiter to dissolve the

:51:09.:51:15.

disputes and issues. The party would certainly support any such news

:51:16.:51:20.

developing on that. In the interest of introducing greater

:51:21.:51:27.

accountability, transparency to negotiations on New Clause 11 has

:51:28.:51:31.

been tabled. Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for your generosity in

:51:32.:51:37.

allowing me to speak. These are important issues. I would hope the

:51:38.:51:42.

House would give sympathetic consideration for comments I made

:51:43.:51:47.

this evening. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think during

:51:48.:51:53.

at least part of this debate some of the amendments that have been tabled

:51:54.:51:57.

both by the government and opposition members have been

:51:58.:52:04.

addressed. I am very pleased, unless type picked it up wrongly, in the

:52:05.:52:09.

course of the debate. Is that there is no one suggesting that we would

:52:10.:52:12.

wish to oppose the amendment which the government has brought forward.

:52:13.:52:18.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I am afraid today's debate on full fiscal

:52:19.:52:22.

economy Bill Matt economy has been for me and unwelcome case of deja vu

:52:23.:52:27.

-- full fiscal autonomy. I'm afraid that includes my honourable friend

:52:28.:52:31.

from Gainsborough. It would certainly be unwelcome to be people

:52:32.:52:36.

of Scotland it is ever came to pass. Just a moment. It will come as no

:52:37.:52:41.

surprise that the government is not excepting the SNP's amendment

:52:42.:52:46.

relating to full fiscal autonomy. This government is clear it is not

:52:47.:52:49.

in the interest of the people of stop and. We simply do not need a

:52:50.:52:54.

commission either stopping because the analysis has been done.

:52:55.:52:58.

Institute of fiscal studies has estimated that full fiscal autonomy

:52:59.:53:02.

would mean Scotland having almost ?10 billion left to spend by the

:53:03.:53:08.

last year of this parliament. That is not a good deal for Scotland, and

:53:09.:53:13.

his government will not supported. I think the Secretary of State. What

:53:14.:53:18.

is ironically a true sense of deja vu is the government despite...

:53:19.:53:27.

Tories will deny people of Scotland denying what they want. That is the

:53:28.:53:34.

real sense of deja vu. Hear, hear! There is not a shred of evidence to

:53:35.:53:38.

suggest that the people of Scotland wonderful fiscal autonomy. They

:53:39.:53:44.

voted in a referendum, which I know is rather an inconvenience for the

:53:45.:53:46.

SNP on the road to independence, but they voted decisively to remain

:53:47.:53:52.

within the UK. I need to deal with some of the specific and important

:53:53.:53:58.

issues raised during the debate. Such as gift aid. I do commend the

:53:59.:54:07.

honourable member because it is one that is important to be charitable

:54:08.:54:12.

sector, of course he came up when I just eat recently. I would confirm

:54:13.:54:16.

that UK government remains committed to working with the charity sector

:54:17.:54:21.

to ensure that gift aid works effectively for charities and their

:54:22.:54:24.

donors. That is something that we have already done and something that

:54:25.:54:30.

will continue to do, we've consulted charity sector fully and agreed to

:54:31.:54:34.

arrangements for the continued operation of gift aid under the

:54:35.:54:37.

Scottish rate of income tax, which will come into effect in April

:54:38.:54:42.

2016. Similarly, we are committed to consulting the charity sector in

:54:43.:54:45.

Scotland and the rest of the UK, head of the arrangements for the

:54:46.:54:49.

continued operation of gift aid under the devolution of income tax

:54:50.:54:53.

powers as proposed by this bill. The government is fully committed to an

:54:54.:54:57.

ongoing dialogue with the charity sector, before and after the

:54:58.:55:01.

enactment of this bill. To ensure that gift aid continues to operate

:55:02.:55:05.

effectively. It is our objective to maximise the amount of gift aid

:55:06.:55:10.

claim on legible donations. I hope on the basis of those reassurances,

:55:11.:55:12.

that he would with draw his amendment.

:55:13.:55:19.

It is a significant concern that the charity sector of Scotland, we will

:55:20.:55:25.

not be pushing a New Clause on that basis. I thank the honourable

:55:26.:55:30.

gentleman for that, I also think might the honourable gentleman for

:55:31.:55:36.

his contributions, although I usually fundamentally disagree with

:55:37.:55:39.

them, I always enjoy him and him and him on his award as a spectator of

:55:40.:55:46.

new MP of the year, both he and the honourable member from Paisley

:55:47.:55:56.

touched on the convention. The procedure set out in the Scottish

:55:57.:56:01.

Parliament. I'm afraid I do not agree with his proposal. I believe

:56:02.:56:11.

that convention as required by the Mission agreement has been set out

:56:12.:56:15.

on the face of the bill and that was what the intention of the

:56:16.:56:20.

convention, this myth to mention to my commission where taking a

:56:21.:56:23.

proposal forward. I do want to respond to all the minutes if I can.

:56:24.:56:27.

In relation to the honourable gentleman from Nottingham's various

:56:28.:56:34.

suggestions in relation to local government, on one hand I am

:56:35.:56:38.

agreement on this occasion with the S and P because I believe it is for

:56:39.:56:41.

the Scottish Parliament to determine the nature of local government in

:56:42.:56:45.

Scotland, on the other hand I am in agreement with him on the basis that

:56:46.:56:51.

as much as possible within Scotland, should be doubled locally and indeed

:56:52.:56:56.

that is one of the proposals that Lord Smith made in relation to his

:56:57.:57:01.

own comments on the bill. Turning to the issue of permanence, I am glad

:57:02.:57:10.

that a New Clause, which I previously shared with the Scottish

:57:11.:57:14.

Government and the devolved powers, committee. That they do meet the

:57:15.:57:20.

aspiration. I think responding to the honourable gentleman, I think it

:57:21.:57:25.

is an importing Clause in demonstrating what people in

:57:26.:57:28.

Scotland have clearly demonstrated they wish to see in these bills. I

:57:29.:57:35.

am pleased that the clauses in relation to elections have been

:57:36.:57:40.

relatively un-contentious as of where those causes in relation to

:57:41.:57:47.

super majority and I hope that amendments put down in that regard

:57:48.:57:52.

will not be pushed to a vote. I'm afraid I cannot agree with the

:57:53.:58:00.

Labour proposal that the amount of VAT raised in Scotland should be

:58:01.:58:05.

assigned to Scotland. It was a key part of the Smith agreement that it

:58:06.:58:10.

should be half of that revenue and that ensured a stable balance

:58:11.:58:16.

between... Insulating the Scottish Government's budget from UK wide

:58:17.:58:22.

economic shocks and I hope that amendment will be P document to a

:58:23.:58:27.

vote. Coming to the issue of human rights, which was raised by the

:58:28.:58:33.

honourable lady from Edinburgh. Previous countries since it is

:58:34.:58:36.

partly, I found that her contributions were based on fact and

:58:37.:58:42.

not Pollock like opinion, and I am surprised that I was somewhat

:58:43.:58:46.

disappointed by this evening's contributions and it is an important

:58:47.:58:50.

issue. The House will be aware that the government outlined our proposal

:58:51.:58:54.

to reform and modernise our human rights framework by replacing the

:58:55.:58:58.

Human Rights Act with the Bill of human rights. Of course I am very

:58:59.:59:04.

aware of the possible devolution implications of reform. We will

:59:05.:59:08.

engage with the devolved administrations as we develop these

:59:09.:59:12.

proposals. We spoke about this matter in committee and the

:59:13.:59:15.

government's view has not changed. The government is working on

:59:16.:59:19.

proposals on the reform of the human rights framework and will bring

:59:20.:59:23.

forward its proposals in due course in consultation with the devolved

:59:24.:59:29.

administrations. Turning to the fiscal framework, which has also

:59:30.:59:32.

been the subject of some discussion, I want to put on record

:59:33.:59:36.

my view that I am absolutely confident that Sweeney negotiating

:59:37.:59:41.

on behalf of Scottish Government will be able to get a good deal for

:59:42.:59:45.

the Scottish Government. I have that confidence in Mr Sweeney, and I know

:59:46.:59:51.

that he and the UK government are absolutely committed to achieving

:59:52.:59:58.

that objective. We have had a number of important and detailed

:59:59.:00:01.

discussions in relation to the first fiscal framework, we agreed that a

:00:02.:00:08.

running commentary would not be provided in relation to those

:00:09.:00:11.

negotiations, and until everything was agreed, nothing was agreed. I do

:00:12.:00:18.

not believe there is any suggestion that an agreement cannot be reached,

:00:19.:00:24.

an agreement that we will be fair for Scotland and fair for the rest

:00:25.:00:27.

the United Kingdom, and I look forward to members of both this

:00:28.:00:31.

house and the Scottish Parliament being able to properly scrutinize

:00:32.:00:38.

that agreement when it is being made. Turning finally, yes indeed.

:00:39.:00:45.

Before his sits down can he just saved very briefly with amendment

:00:46.:00:49.

two to four which is being made by the S and P. It is worth pointing

:00:50.:00:55.

out that instead of asking is how to oppose fiscal autonomy, to the

:00:56.:01:00.

parliament then legislate in these areas, in other words the do not

:01:01.:01:05.

actually wanted yet. They want to stop selling but not quite yet. I

:01:06.:01:10.

think we should call that bluff on this. Mr Speaker, modern Deputy

:01:11.:01:16.

Speaker, I think through the course of these debates that it is quite

:01:17.:01:23.

clear that the strongest advocate of full fiscal autonomy is the member

:01:24.:01:29.

from Gainsborough. He is willing to put his money where his mouth is, I

:01:30.:01:34.

am not willing to put the livelihoods of people in Scotland on

:01:35.:01:39.

the line just to demonstrate that some scheme would not work. I want

:01:40.:01:46.

to just deal with New Clause 36 which is an important amendment, at

:01:47.:01:49.

least your colleagues seem to suggest that. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:01:50.:01:58.

in 2014, the Scottish people voted tour remained in the United Kingdom

:01:59.:02:02.

and retain our two Parliament and to government. Fichardt is repeatedly

:02:03.:02:06.

in advance of the 2014 referendum that it would be a once in a

:02:07.:02:10.

generation, once in a lifetime event. The first Minister herself

:02:11.:02:15.

signed the Edinburgh government, made both governments respect the

:02:16.:02:20.

outcome of the independence referendum. However much the S in

:02:21.:02:24.

the dislike the fact that two million and people -- people in

:02:25.:02:30.

Scotland voted to keep our United Kingdom, their votes should be

:02:31.:02:36.

respected. And not set aside as an unfortunate setback on the Road to

:02:37.:02:41.

Independence. Most people in Scotland support our place in the

:02:42.:02:45.

United Kingdom and do not want a second referendum, it is a fact that

:02:46.:02:52.

the SNP cannot face it. This amendment is a distraction, a

:02:53.:02:54.

distraction from the real powers which are contained in this bill.

:02:55.:02:58.

This bill gives the Scottish Parliament significant hours with

:02:59.:03:02.

the strength of United Kingdom, the SNP need to tell us how they intend

:03:03.:03:06.

to use these powers for the benefit of the people of Scotland. And so I

:03:07.:03:10.

will not be supporting amendment 36 and moving again my own amendments.

:03:11.:03:20.

The question is that the government New Clause 12 B read a second time,

:03:21.:03:28.

dock. I think the ayes habit, the ayes have it. The question is that

:03:29.:03:34.

the government Clause 12 be added to the bill. I think the ayes have it.

:03:35.:03:44.

New Clause 13 be added to the bill. The question is that the New Clause

:03:45.:03:52.

13 be added to the bill. I think the ayes have it. The question is that

:03:53.:04:03.

New Clause one, no, sorry. New Clause one to be moved formally. The

:04:04.:04:10.

new -- the question that New Clause one B read a second time. Division.

:04:11.:04:16.

Clear the lobby! Question is that New Clause one be

:04:17.:05:32.

read a second time. Holly Lynch and Jeff Smith, for the ayes.

:05:33.:12:22.

Order! Order! The yeses to the right, 191. The nose into the left,

:12:23.:16:29.

. -- 341. The nose haven't, then those have it. Unlock.

:16:30.:16:43.

The question is, New Clause 35 be added to the bill. As many of the

:16:44.:16:54.

opinion essay I. On the contrary, no. Division, clear the lobby!

:16:55.:19:09.

The question is that New Clause 35 be added to the bill.

:19:10.:25:00.

Order! Order! The ayes to the right with 245, the noes to the left with

:25:01.:28:15.

287. The ayes to the right, 240 ride -- 245. The nose to the right, 247.

:28:16.:28:29.

Via noes have it. The question isn't that Clause 26 be formally moved. --

:28:30.:28:32.

36. Order! Order! The order -- the

:28:33.:30:19.

question isn't that New Clause 36 be added to the bill.

:30:20.:36:58.

In order! Order. The ayes to the right, 56. The noes to the left,

:36:59.:39:10.

265. The ice to the right, 56, the noes to the last 256. The noes have

:39:11.:39:41.

it. We have now, to 2469 amending be made to.

:39:42.:39:50.

Last night, a picture of a swastika was projected onto the House of

:39:51.:40:01.

Commons with a message saying" not welcome." The prime minister of

:40:02.:40:08.

India is visiting later this week. Can you confirm that this will be

:40:09.:40:12.

investigated, and today it has nothing to do with anything with the

:40:13.:40:16.

Government or the authorities, and that the perpetrators will be caught

:40:17.:40:22.

and punished? Is not acceptable to project onto the house, but to

:40:23.:40:30.

project a swastika, and the visit of a state leader is totally

:40:31.:40:34.

unacceptable. The point has been made and will be dealt with. I'm

:40:35.:40:41.

convinced that the police will be looking into as a matter of

:40:42.:40:48.

urgency. Will you explain the procedure to the house, because I

:40:49.:40:54.

have not been a very long here. I don't need to explain or to waste

:40:55.:40:58.

anymore time, because we need to move on to the bill. This is a

:40:59.:41:05.

genuine point of order. Am I right in thinking that it would be in

:41:06.:41:12.

order for an amendment to be moved. I'm surprised that the S has not

:41:13.:41:16.

moved amendment two to four for a cut autonomy. I wonder if there is a

:41:17.:41:21.

reason that would have prevented them. It is not for the church to

:41:22.:41:29.

decide, but to the SNP a. As I have said, it is not a point of order,

:41:30.:41:33.

and you knew the answer before you ask. C we can make a little

:41:34.:41:42.

progress. We now come to a welfare benefit of legislative components

:41:43.:41:45.

with a compliance. We come to government Clause to 14 with a New

:41:46.:41:54.

Clause 34, New Clause 15, deposit 17, and amendments of numerous

:41:55.:41:58.

clauses to go through it for the government. Rather than name them

:41:59.:42:03.

all, I would be happy for the secretary of states to it now move

:42:04.:42:10.

them. Thank you Mr Deputy. Can I begin this section with the specific

:42:11.:42:16.

issue of welfare funds, on which I am accepting an amendment that the

:42:17.:42:21.

SNP tabled. It was tabled a committee. The Smith commission

:42:22.:42:25.

stated that the devolution of welfare food should be subject to

:42:26.:42:30.

further discussions between the UK and Scottish governments. This has

:42:31.:42:33.

taken place, and I'm pleased that the New Clause caused 14 and

:42:34.:42:41.

consequential eminent 75, 80, and 82 to 83, devolve powers to the

:42:42.:42:44.

Scottish Parliament concerning welfare food. They'll be able to

:42:45.:42:50.

abolish existing schemes which included the milk scheme and the

:42:51.:42:55.

health star scheme, work make new schemes. I will for more generally,

:42:56.:42:59.

the government is proposing changes to the welfare causes, responding to

:43:00.:43:02.

a number of comments made by members of his house at committee stage as

:43:03.:43:07.

well as the Scottish Parliament and other state quarters. As a result,

:43:08.:43:11.

it will be beyond doubt that this calendar bill fully delivers on the

:43:12.:43:17.

smash death -- Smith committee. The problem will have significant duties

:43:18.:43:23.

as to the areas of welfare. From Gordon Brown and the Scottish

:43:24.:43:28.

media, and from all objective observers. The Scottish government

:43:29.:43:34.

in route responsibly to care benefits, worth to 7p in Scotland in

:43:35.:43:39.

the last year. It will be able to deliver new variant -- benefits in

:43:40.:43:48.

all devolved areas. The Scottish can, if they wish, legislate for

:43:49.:43:53.

paint meant to a person who is under 16, is in full-time education, or is

:43:54.:43:58.

gainfully employed. The Scottish Government will be able to pay

:43:59.:44:03.

anyone on a reserve benefit a top up payment. This includes being able to

:44:04.:44:06.

top of benefits such as tax credits, child benefit, and

:44:07.:44:14.

universal credit. For the sake of clarity very, and the Secretary of

:44:15.:44:17.

State say that the Scotland bill as drafted this evening would allow the

:44:18.:44:21.

Scottish Bowman to topple tax credits? As I have said before, and

:44:22.:44:28.

unlikely to set again, a Scotland bill as it progresses through this

:44:29.:44:32.

house this evening, would allow the Scottish Parliament to top up tax

:44:33.:44:37.

credits, and indeed a child benefit, and elements of credit as well. It

:44:38.:44:42.

will be able to pay shorter-term payments to help anyone, regards of

:44:43.:44:48.

whether they are not entitled to reserve benefit, who has immediate

:44:49.:44:51.

need for them, and whose well-being is at risk. I have also proposing

:44:52.:44:58.

important changes to the bill so that Scottish Bowman can create

:44:59.:45:04.

their own new benefits in any area of responsibly, a by Clause 34, and

:45:05.:45:11.

amendments 191 to 193. The Scottish Government will be able to do this

:45:12.:45:14.

without any need to consult the UK government. This power a

:45:15.:45:18.

significant, the skies from it will no longer be able to see that they

:45:19.:45:22.

are constrained by West Minister. They will be able to choose what

:45:23.:45:27.

additional benefits to afford people in Scotland. I must make a few

:45:28.:45:30.

important points to a few important points the clear. Any new benefits

:45:31.:45:38.

in the Scottish Government that they want to deliver it will be parallel

:45:39.:45:42.

to the benefits that are delivered by the UK government. The new power

:45:43.:45:48.

does not affect Westminster power to and deliver support. It is not allow

:45:49.:45:53.

the Scottish Parliament to reserve was Mr Reiser legislation. They will

:45:54.:46:01.

need to deliver benefits from Scottish fund. The house will be

:46:02.:46:04.

aware that we have also delivered on other areas of Smith in. He Scottish

:46:05.:46:09.

misters will be able to make regulations on certain omens of

:46:10.:46:14.

universal credit, such as frequency of payments and to whom they are

:46:15.:46:19.

paid. I'm obliged to him for giving way. In terms of clarity, for those

:46:20.:46:25.

who lose their tax credits completely, as a result of this Tory

:46:26.:46:31.

government cutting agenda, the provision is there for them in this

:46:32.:46:37.

Scottish I don't know if she is familiar with the provisions in the

:46:38.:46:41.

bill, but the Scottish Parliament will have complete control over

:46:42.:46:45.

income tax in Scotland. If they are concerned that people are not

:46:46.:46:49.

receiving sufficient income, it will be able to adjust those tax -- those

:46:50.:46:55.

tax credits. The honourable Lady knows that tax credits are not been

:46:56.:46:59.

divulged, and she also knows that they can be topped up. Hurt she and

:47:00.:47:06.

her party have been unwilling to state whether or not they're willing

:47:07.:47:11.

to top of those benefits. They have whole range of benefits, or rather

:47:12.:47:16.

Mr Speaker, then put any thought into thinking of how to evolve a

:47:17.:47:23.

welfare system in Scotland, it isn't the usual SNP position of the focus,

:47:24.:47:28.

focus, focus on what we can do rather than telling anyone in

:47:29.:47:32.

Scotland what we can do. Of course, there was much debate that as I've

:47:33.:47:38.

dealt with a shoe. There was much debate in committee on the universal

:47:39.:47:42.

credit hours, and many inaccurate accusations that the UK government

:47:43.:47:47.

would have a power to veto decisions of the Scottish government. To put

:47:48.:47:50.

this down a reasonable doubt, I have brought forward amendments to Clause

:47:51.:47:55.

is 24 and 25, that makes clear that there is no UK veto over decisions

:47:56.:47:59.

that the Scottish Government makes in this space. Amendment 77 and 78

:48:00.:48:05.

strength in the drafting of these divisions. The Secretary of State

:48:06.:48:09.

will remain legally responsible for the delivery of universal credit,

:48:10.:48:14.

but both governments will need to collaborate to consider any such

:48:15.:48:16.

changes to these elements of universal credit. This is at the

:48:17.:48:21.

heart of Clause 24 and 25, and I know that our officials have already

:48:22.:48:25.

had their constructive discussions with the Scottish government on this

:48:26.:48:29.

subject. To ensure that the record is clustered -- crystal clear, there

:48:30.:48:36.

are no UK government vetoes on this welfare and employment causes. I

:48:37.:48:39.

would like to emphasise that we have listened to the Scottish government

:48:40.:48:44.

and the debate in his house. For example, amendment 72 ammo which

:48:45.:48:50.

enables China's government to write nonfinancial assistance for

:48:51.:48:54.

maternity, funeral, and heating expenses reflects an amendment that

:48:55.:48:59.

the amend -- S tabled in committee. After consideration the

:49:00.:49:03.

government is happy to make this change. Amendment 70 three, 76, and

:49:04.:49:09.

hundred 92 and number 91 religious provision. All in all, this

:49:10.:49:13.

settlement fully reflects an agreement reached by the Smith

:49:14.:49:18.

commission. Gestures that the areas should remain in reserve, such as

:49:19.:49:23.

pension, universal credit, sanctions and conditionality, and employment

:49:24.:49:27.

support delivered by Java centre plus, remain to be building of the

:49:28.:49:33.

UK government. More importantly, it gives the Scottish prominent full

:49:34.:49:35.

responsibility for any errors of welfare. The Scottish Parliament

:49:36.:49:39.

will have the autonomy to legislate for large areas of welfare, and I

:49:40.:49:43.

look forward to the debate began on how intends it to the debate began

:49:44.:49:48.

on how intensity you Mr Speaker, the Smith commission agreement also

:49:49.:49:50.

recommended the devolution of abortion legislation am a given that

:49:51.:49:54.

parties to the agreement were strongly of the view that anomalous

:49:55.:50:00.

reservation needed to be corrected. As I announced last month, UK and

:50:01.:50:04.

Scottish ministers and officials have held discussions on the matter,

:50:05.:50:08.

and reflect it very carefully about practicalities of devolution in this

:50:09.:50:15.

area. I'm grateful for the Secretary of State, he has accepted a lot of

:50:16.:50:19.

Labour amendments from committee stage, but he said quite clearly in

:50:20.:50:23.

this house back in July that he would not divulge abortion without a

:50:24.:50:27.

proper process and full consultation discussion with Scottish women's

:50:28.:50:32.

groups. Can ask what has changed his mind? That is in inaccurate

:50:33.:50:39.

collection of what I said. I made it clear that the Smith commission had

:50:40.:50:43.

recommended the devolution of abortion, that we were engaged in a

:50:44.:50:48.

discussion with the Scottish Government, and of course we have

:50:49.:50:52.

engaged with women's groups in the Scotland, Bruce that I have spoken

:50:53.:50:57.

to our clear that abortion can be devolved. Let me finish. There are

:50:58.:51:02.

clear that the Scottish Provident has the capacity to deal with the

:51:03.:51:09.

issue of abortion, but they do want the devolution to be handled

:51:10.:51:13.

sensitively. I think that we are in the process of doing that. The first

:51:14.:51:18.

Minister of Scotland has made it clear that she has no plans to

:51:19.:51:22.

change the existing arrangements in relation to it abortion, and the

:51:23.:51:27.

honourable gentleman will know that... I will come to my honourable

:51:28.:51:33.

Lady. Gettable gentleman will know that by devoting abortion to the

:51:34.:51:38.

Scottish from it, it will not lead to a change in the law in Scotland.

:51:39.:51:42.

I will only happen, they'll only happen if the Scottish Parliament

:51:43.:51:48.

makes the decision. The Minister will know they will not be the gift

:51:49.:51:53.

of anyone Minister to decide, and he is proposing a very substantial

:51:54.:51:57.

framework change to decide, and he is proposing a very substantial

:51:58.:51:59.

framework change through a framework for abortion legislation. He has

:52:00.:52:03.

done the work with substantial consultation, and you're only going

:52:04.:52:06.

to have a few minutes to discuss this, something so substantial, the

:52:07.:52:11.

change to the 1967 act in this act, that he really think that a few

:52:12.:52:16.

discussion here and the limited conversations that he has had

:52:17.:52:20.

between officials in the Scottish office and the Scotch egg government

:52:21.:52:31.

will be to do this quiz the desk? I believe the Scottish government has

:52:32.:52:35.

the capacity to deal with this issue. It is in danger of verging on

:52:36.:52:41.

the patronizing... To suggest that the Scottish Parliament is not

:52:42.:52:47.

capable with dealing with this is -- issue, even though it is an issue of

:52:48.:52:51.

great importance, even though it is an issue of conscious. I am a

:52:52.:52:56.

satisfied that the Scottish Parliament has the capacity to deal

:52:57.:53:05.

with this issue. Would the Minister agree with me that it is

:53:06.:53:08.

extraordinary, despite all three main parties being led by women in

:53:09.:53:13.

Scotland, and after the Scottish government brought in later session

:53:14.:53:19.

for a quality some of the most oppressive legislation on the issue

:53:20.:53:22.

any work, that the Labour Party apparently it still feels that

:53:23.:53:26.

Scotland's people still need to need a male-dominated Westminster to

:53:27.:53:32.

protect women's rights. I would not agree with the analysis, but I do

:53:33.:53:41.

strongly believe that there is no constitutional reason not to divulge

:53:42.:53:45.

abortion. The Scottish programme has responsibility for most aspects of

:53:46.:53:48.

the NHS and the criminal justice system.

:53:49.:53:55.

What he is doing is setting up two different systems for Scotland and

:53:56.:54:00.

then for England and Wales. That when we know in other parts of the

:54:01.:54:05.

world that has led to people travelling for abortions,

:54:06.:54:08.

overwhelming having to travel at a vulnerable time. That principle,

:54:09.:54:12.

deciding whether or not it is right for people to have to travel is an

:54:13.:54:17.

unfortunate one. I hope that many of my colleagues will agree with us

:54:18.:54:21.

about the importance of the 1967 act, I know there is strong

:54:22.:54:25.

agreement from the first Minister however, whether we think it is

:54:26.:54:29.

right to increase the likelihood of women having to travel at a

:54:30.:54:32.

vulnerable time, does he think he is right to have that without proper

:54:33.:54:37.

consultation for women across not just Scotland but England as well?

:54:38.:54:41.

The right honourable Lady has cast my eye, ... When I you Mr Deputy

:54:42.:54:50.

Speaker, I do not think there is any evidence as to suggest that that

:54:51.:54:55.

will be the case. I think there is very considerable evidence of the

:54:56.:54:58.

last 16 years that the Scottish Parliament has been able to deal

:54:59.:55:03.

with sensitive matters in an appropriate way. Just to clarify.

:55:04.:55:10.

This was not originally in the devolution process as my

:55:11.:55:12.

understanding of her, but it was brought to attention, with the

:55:13.:55:18.

number of members from this house was believed to be pro-life. Could

:55:19.:55:21.

the Minister please alleviate my fears on that? I can confirm that

:55:22.:55:27.

that is absolutely not the case. If she reads the Smith commission

:55:28.:55:30.

report, the commission makes it clear that they believe that

:55:31.:55:36.

devolution should take place in place of abortion law, devolution

:55:37.:55:41.

from the previous act was an anomalous reservation based on the

:55:42.:55:49.

health and criminal justice devolution that took place. They

:55:50.:55:52.

recognise and I recognise that this is a matter that requires to be

:55:53.:55:57.

dealt with sensitively. Requires recent dealt with sensitively,

:55:58.:56:00.

that's why there have been discussions with the Scottish

:56:01.:56:03.

Government, that is why the first Minister of Scotland has made his

:56:04.:56:06.

position on the issue very clear, that is why the health minister will

:56:07.:56:11.

be talking shortly with women's groups and parties in Scotland as

:56:12.:56:14.

the devolution of abortion goes forward. I'm going to take and then

:56:15.:56:20.

I will come back. As was stated at the last meeting, under no certain

:56:21.:56:28.

terms there is no plan to reduce legislation. Therefore on that

:56:29.:56:33.

basis, with the number of, Secretary of State agree with me that the fact

:56:34.:56:37.

that members on these benches undermine their own colleagues in

:56:38.:56:41.

the Scottish Parliament by saying we cannot legislate for new matters? I

:56:42.:56:46.

have already stated that I think the honourable lady, I am absolutely

:56:47.:56:53.

satisfied that the sky from and has capacity to deal with this issue.

:56:54.:56:58.

And on tonight and other occasions we have had significant differences

:56:59.:57:01.

between ourselves as to what should and shouldn't be devolved to the

:57:02.:57:03.

Scottish Parliament, those have never been the basis that I believe

:57:04.:57:08.

the Scottish phone that was not capable with dealing any particular

:57:09.:57:12.

sensitive or difficult issue, it was because I felt the balance of

:57:13.:57:16.

responsibilities in the devolution settlement was better served in a

:57:17.:57:21.

different way. I genuinely believe the balance of the devolution

:57:22.:57:25.

settlement is best served by abortion being evolved which is

:57:26.:57:29.

consistent with the health and criminal justice devolution as part

:57:30.:57:35.

of the wider settlement. The Smith commission did not say that abortion

:57:36.:57:38.

should be to vault now, but it did say that a procedure should be put

:57:39.:57:43.

into place in order to be considered. Perhaps the secretary is

:57:44.:57:46.

late could explain the procedure that has been put in place and the

:57:47.:57:49.

consultation that has taken or word in this decision tonight was white

:57:50.:57:54.

if the honourable lady looks at the Smith commission report it is not

:57:55.:57:58.

that the devolution was in question or to be consulted on, what is to be

:57:59.:58:03.

consulted on is a process in terms of that devolution going forward.

:58:04.:58:08.

And it will be, the UK government is committed to that approach, I am

:58:09.:58:11.

assured women's groups in Scotland that I have committed and I know the

:58:12.:58:16.

Scottish Government is committed to that approach as well. The first

:58:17.:58:22.

Minister has made her position clear, this is in relation to the

:58:23.:58:27.

constitutional balance between the United Kingdom and Scotland and

:58:28.:58:32.

where that decision is more appropriately taken. The Smith

:58:33.:58:37.

commission came to the clear conclusion that the balance

:58:38.:58:40.

appropriately lay with the Scottish Parliament. The measure is being

:58:41.:58:45.

taken forward, I think, and a measured way. It is the year almost

:58:46.:58:50.

since the Smith commission reported, there will be no change to

:58:51.:58:56.

the legal position in Scotland in relation to abortion, simply by this

:58:57.:59:06.

act of devolution. I would like to agree with the Secretary of State

:59:07.:59:10.

that it is right that we give the Scottish Parliament and trust the

:59:11.:59:13.

Scottish Parliament with this issue. They have shown themselves to be

:59:14.:59:17.

progressive on issues such as same-sex marriage. They do have very

:59:18.:59:21.

important legislative powers over the judicial system. So I would urge

:59:22.:59:26.

the secretary of state to carry on with this measure and ensure that

:59:27.:59:30.

the Scottish Parliament is given the needs. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker.

:59:31.:59:38.

I think I have made clear the final point that I wanted to which was

:59:39.:59:43.

simply by devolution, there will be no change to the position under the

:59:44.:59:51.

1967 act. I am sure hear views from others and we will of course listen

:59:52.:59:57.

to them. I will take your point. With the Secretary of State agree

:59:58.:00:01.

that a woman's Rick to choose should be universal? I do not think this is

:00:02.:00:11.

the nature of this debate. This debate about whether the Scottish

:00:12.:00:13.

Parliament should have the responsibility for this issue. I

:00:14.:00:16.

believe they have the capacity to make those decisions in an informed

:00:17.:00:24.

way, and I do think it is offensive, becoming offensive, to

:00:25.:00:28.

suggest otherwise. All of the other issues that we raise and debate in

:00:29.:00:35.

this chamber about the responsibilities between Scotland

:00:36.:00:37.

and the rest of the United Kingdom, we do not do so on the capacity of

:00:38.:00:42.

the Scottish Parliament that it might fall under undue influence and

:00:43.:00:47.

make their own decision. I think I have made the position very clear.

:00:48.:00:56.

The one thing I will restate, that is that we will continue to work

:00:57.:01:03.

closely with women's groups and other interested parties to ensure

:01:04.:01:08.

that the devolution of abortion is as smooth as possible. As I

:01:09.:01:14.

repeatedly said, there will be no change simply by devolution of the

:01:15.:01:17.

Scottish Government and the first Minister has stated that they they

:01:18.:01:22.

do not intend to change the existing provisions. I am going to move on I

:01:23.:01:26.

am afraid to discuss the Crown estate which is also an important

:01:27.:01:33.

issue which has been a very much debated in the context of a

:01:34.:01:38.

devolution. Clause 31 allows for the Scottish asset to the Crown estate

:01:39.:01:42.

to be managed by the Scottish Government and they should receive

:01:43.:01:45.

the revenue from the management of those assets. Going forward, the

:01:46.:01:52.

Clause... Sorry. Thank you for giving way, Clause 31 actually says

:01:53.:02:01.

the Treasury may make an endorsement to the vault that. It means maybe

:02:02.:02:13.

iMac may no. -- maybe no. I do not accept that analysis. The State

:02:14.:02:19.

transfers beam and the memorandum between both governments has been

:02:20.:02:22.

published, it is in the House library. I see that copies are

:02:23.:02:28.

available at the office, I see the Scottish Government have already

:02:29.:02:34.

come back with their comments in relation to those proposals. So I

:02:35.:02:39.

think very clearly going forward because meet the Scottish problem I

:02:40.:02:45.

have the management of the Scottish asked Mac -- assets. I very much

:02:46.:02:51.

hope in accordance with the provisions that Lord Smith himself

:02:52.:02:57.

set out in the agreement, that they will do so. It also does provide the

:02:58.:03:03.

protections and visits by the Smith commission to ensure the transfer is

:03:04.:03:08.

not detrimental to defence and other UK wide critical national

:03:09.:03:14.

infrastructure. Amendment 84 to 95 o'clock 31 strengthened the delivery

:03:15.:03:17.

of the Smith commission and the drafting of the provisions. To make

:03:18.:03:20.

clear the policy intent of the Clause, including the protection to

:03:21.:03:24.

be included in the transfer scheme relating to electricity charges and

:03:25.:03:29.

the obligation to maintain a stake in land. Proposals having to be

:03:30.:03:35.

reinvested into the estate. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am also proposing

:03:36.:03:39.

a number of equal opportunities amendments to the bill, having

:03:40.:03:43.

engaged with stakeholders and Scottish Government on the equal

:03:44.:03:45.

opportunities provision and reflected on the committee debates,

:03:46.:03:49.

we have responded our representations made on how the

:03:50.:03:53.

Clause might be made clearer. Clause 16 and the consequential amendments

:03:54.:03:59.

102 to 104 and 97 confers the Scottish ministers make amends by

:04:00.:04:04.

order and implement part one of the quality at 2010 in Scotland. This

:04:05.:04:08.

provides the devolution of social economic rights to the Scottish

:04:09.:04:13.

Parliament. Amendments 96 and 98 to 101 to Clause 32 similarly represent

:04:14.:04:17.

a revised and improved drafting approach. The strength and the...

:04:18.:04:24.

Exercising devolved functions in Scotland. This makes clear that

:04:25.:04:28.

Scottish Parliament could legislate to introduce protections

:04:29.:04:31.

requirements and positive measures including gender quotas forward

:04:32.:04:37.

boards across the public sector. The revised version of Clause 33

:04:38.:04:44.

achieved by amendment 105 is made the purpose effect of operation of

:04:45.:04:48.

the tribunals clearer. The amendment to move the Mac removes ambiguity

:04:49.:04:56.

through the drafting... Management operation of tribunals will be

:04:57.:05:00.

devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Mr Deputy Speaker, New Clause 17,

:05:01.:05:05.

consequential amendments 134 and 135 will allow the UK government to

:05:06.:05:10.

change primary legislation so that finds forfeitures and penalties

:05:11.:05:13.

imposed by the courts and tribunals in Scotland are required to be paid

:05:14.:05:18.

to the Scottish consolidated fund, and therefore retained by the

:05:19.:05:21.

Scottish Government. This delivers the Smith commission agreement. The

:05:22.:05:28.

bill also the... Relating to national speed limits and traffic

:05:29.:05:31.

signs in Scotland, to minor technical amendments, 106 and 1036

:05:32.:05:37.

are required to correct the drafting in Clause 37, scheduled to, and do

:05:38.:05:41.

not have an effect on the powers involved in this area. Memo 170

:05:42.:05:46.

Clause 37 ensures the Scottish Government is able to use the

:05:47.:05:50.

traffic signs regulations in general, once they come into effect.

:05:51.:05:57.

The Smith commission also agreed the licensing of onshore oil and gas

:05:58.:06:02.

prices should beat the ball to the Scottish Parliament. Amendments 111

:06:03.:06:09.

to 113 and 108 improve the intended function of the oil and clap, gas

:06:10.:06:14.

clauses and bring about a transfer of legislative confidence. Amendment

:06:15.:06:19.

109 ensures the competence of the Scottish Parliament over given

:06:20.:06:21.

licenses in the Scottish onshore area is not affected by geological

:06:22.:06:27.

processes on the coastline. Amendment 110 clarifies the extent

:06:28.:06:31.

of petroleum access, powers being devolved in relation to land access.

:06:32.:06:35.

Robert ease of searching and budget to my boarding a troll under a

:06:36.:06:42.

license. Amendment 114 allows existing cross-border licenses to be

:06:43.:06:47.

split so the Scottish ministers are granted administration of all

:06:48.:06:50.

licensed acreage in the Scottish onshore area. Kloss and 43 devolved

:06:51.:06:56.

power to the Scottish Parliament over the division of consumer

:06:57.:07:00.

advocacy and advice in Scotland. Amendments 115 to 128 correct minor

:07:01.:07:07.

and technical areas -- errors in the Clause provided the drafting of the

:07:08.:07:10.

Clause related to gas and electricity companies and the postal

:07:11.:07:15.

sector to fund consumer advocacy. This will continue to be raised

:07:16.:07:19.

across the UK and funds will be continued to be portions across

:07:20.:07:26.

Scotland. Amendments 137 to 142 proposed to Clause 50 which enable

:07:27.:07:32.

Scottish ministers to divine -- reducing fuel poverty in Scotland by

:07:33.:07:37.

imposing obligations on energy providers. These amendments transfer

:07:38.:07:40.

an additional power to Scottish ministers so that they can set out

:07:41.:07:44.

in regulations the rules for determining the value of any benefit

:07:45.:07:48.

provided under Scottish fuel poverty scheme and said different benefits

:07:49.:07:52.

amounts for different categories of eligible customers. Amendments also

:07:53.:07:57.

remove duplicate requirements and Scottish ministers and clarify the

:07:58.:08:00.

Secretary of State continues to exercise the powers which are not

:08:01.:08:04.

transferred to the Scottish ministers. Amendments 143214 -- 154

:08:05.:08:10.

to Clause 51 take into account the debate at the committee stage to

:08:11.:08:17.

ensure that costs are clear and applicable -- equitable to design

:08:18.:08:21.

the Scottish energy company obligation in a way that she keep

:08:22.:08:25.

costs of the obligation in Scotland within this year of any carbon

:08:26.:08:29.

emission reduction a whole heating cost reduction target portions of

:08:30.:08:34.

Scotland. Amendments one to nine and the Mets won 33 are technical

:08:35.:08:38.

amendments which are needed to ensure that the member appointed to

:08:39.:08:42.

the Ofcom board by Scottish ministers has the same functions and

:08:43.:08:45.

responsibilities as other board members. In conclusion Mr Deputy

:08:46.:08:51.

Speaker, I am confident that the minutes I'm proposing to the

:08:52.:08:56.

Scotland bill received by objective observers as positive drafting

:08:57.:08:58.

changes which will strengthen the provisions and make clear that they

:08:59.:09:01.

will fully deliver the Smith commission agreement in spirit and I

:09:02.:09:10.

beg to move my amendments. New Clause 14. The question is that New

:09:11.:09:20.

Clause 14 B read a second time. Mr Deputy Speaker, I rise to speak to

:09:21.:09:25.

the minutes and my name and the members of my friends, I am sorry we

:09:26.:09:28.

do not have more time to debate these minutes more fully deceiving.

:09:29.:09:34.

Like the of state, I to have a sense of each other this evening because

:09:35.:09:36.

many of the amendment tabled today are similar to minutes we debated at

:09:37.:09:42.

committee stage. So far, the government has accepted one

:09:43.:09:44.

opposition amendments to any part in Scotland bill, but alas we have seen

:09:45.:09:47.

government amendments tabled in the last few days that takes us a wee

:09:48.:09:51.

bit closer to what we originally pledged. I welcome the governments

:09:52.:09:57.

tacit amendments that the bill failed to meet the letter or spirit

:09:58.:10:02.

of the Smith recognition. I welcome many of those bladed amendments,

:10:03.:10:06.

including the amends in this group and the one on abortion which was

:10:07.:10:09.

debated earlier. They do address some of the bill's shortcomings.

:10:10.:10:17.

However the amendments in this group and there are more than quite a few

:10:18.:10:21.

of them all seek to equip the Scottish Parliament with the power

:10:22.:10:24.

needs to build a fairer society, strengthen employee prospects,

:10:25.:10:28.

improve governments, and create a better number for people. Mr Deputy

:10:29.:10:33.

Speaker, no issue and calculates this better than the issue of tax

:10:34.:10:38.

credits. That is why I am moving New Clause 18 today, which would amend

:10:39.:10:43.

schedule five of the Scotland Act to devolved Scottish Parliament to make

:10:44.:10:47.

provision for the tax credit and working tax credit. Perhaps a bit

:10:48.:10:53.

later on but I want to signal and taste the will of the House on this

:10:54.:10:59.

club later. These tax credits more than it other time highlights the

:11:00.:11:02.

contrast between the UK government willing to put low income families

:11:03.:11:08.

on the front line and the ideological war of austerity. The

:11:09.:11:14.

Scottish government tackling... Determined to give children a decent

:11:15.:11:20.

start in life. I will give way. I just wonder, if they had control of

:11:21.:11:24.

tax credits, with a increased income tax to pay for them? I am glad that

:11:25.:11:29.

the honourable gentleman has asked me that so early on because had it

:11:30.:11:34.

been listening to events in the Scottish Parliament last week he

:11:35.:11:37.

would know that it has been made very clear that the impact... To

:11:38.:11:48.

mitigate the impact of the tax credit changes, however, like the

:11:49.:11:52.

Prime Minister, she is also in the dark about exactly what those

:11:53.:11:55.

proposals are going to be because George does seem to be writing on

:11:56.:11:59.

the back of an envelope. We are clear that that is not going to be

:12:00.:12:05.

possible to quantify for too half weeks. I would want to give way at

:12:06.:12:08.

the moment I'm going to make progress but I will come back and

:12:09.:12:12.

take more interventions on topic. Let me say that the changes

:12:13.:12:18.

announced by the Chancellor had the power to cut the incomes of four and

:12:19.:12:21.

a half million families across the UK. The SNP has been resolute and

:12:22.:12:26.

consistent in its opposition to these cuts. I wish the same could be

:12:27.:12:30.

said across the South. I will give way on that point. Thank you for

:12:31.:12:40.

poor -- her offer there. The power to restore the money loss of tax

:12:41.:12:45.

credits credits and with the member commit the Scottish Government to

:12:46.:12:48.

restoring and full of the money lost by tax credits? She really needs to

:12:49.:12:54.

stop everything she and listen to the debate. It is simply wrong. It

:12:55.:13:04.

is simply wrong... Bringing up their children on various projects to

:13:05.:13:08.

plate the lion share of the prize for the economic failures of

:13:09.:13:12.

successive UK governments. Under the UK government, tax credits as they

:13:13.:13:17.

stand, I won't give way, I will in a moment or two. Under UK

:13:18.:13:24.

government's tax credit proposals, 250,000 working households in

:13:25.:13:28.

Scotland will lose on average ?1500 each year from April, the longer

:13:29.:13:32.

term, once the tax credit changes are fully implemented, including

:13:33.:13:35.

restrictions on the two child policy. Many of those families are

:13:36.:13:39.

going to lose up to ?3000 a year each. That is not pocket money, that

:13:40.:13:45.

it represents an enormous income... I will give way to the shadow

:13:46.:13:51.

Secretary of State. Idea I think she quite answered the question from my

:13:52.:13:55.

honourable friend. Issue committing here tonight to the over losses and

:13:56.:14:02.

tax credit cut from this government. Because her party voted

:14:03.:14:09.

against it last week? Mr Deputy Speaker, I really wish that the

:14:10.:14:13.

shadow Secretary of State had voted against the tax credits on the 23rd

:14:14.:14:17.

of July. Before they came before this house because that would have

:14:18.:14:23.

shot them dead. That is why we are back where we are. To get this point

:14:24.:14:28.

across, it has been made crystal clear that she intends to bring cost

:14:29.:14:32.

plans once a statement has been made. The low-paid working families,

:14:33.:14:38.

tax credits are the crucial source of income and put shoes on the feet

:14:39.:14:43.

of children, keeps homes warm during the winter. But this Parliament tax

:14:44.:14:50.

credit cuts would take to 2p out of the pockets of the poorest families.

:14:51.:14:54.

That is going to undermine economic... Scary measures RDN acted

:14:55.:15:01.

are said to put 100,000 more children in poverty in 2020. Under

:15:02.:15:07.

these tax credit measures, these youngsters aren't set out further.

:15:08.:15:10.

No wonder the Tories have abandoned any attempt to... There's a broad

:15:11.:15:16.

consensus in Scotland that cutting tax credits is the wrong thing to do

:15:17.:15:19.

and even the leader of the tort party has said, it is wrong for

:15:20.:15:25.

low-paid workers to lose out. Even they recognise that the proposals

:15:26.:15:30.

would disenfranchise work, punish those in low-paid jobs. The House of

:15:31.:15:35.

Lords in the worst of these proposals could force the government

:15:36.:15:39.

act to the drawing board for the tax credit plan. For millions of

:15:40.:15:45.

families across UK who face uncertainty, we are going to have to

:15:46.:15:48.

wait until the statement to learn what changes the government, I will

:15:49.:15:55.

not give way, they intend to bring forward... Who seem rather thin on

:15:56.:16:00.

the ground tonight. We at the SNP have been very consistent in our

:16:01.:16:03.

opposition to the tax credit changes and we have made the case that all

:16:04.:16:09.

the changes... We all continue to fight tax credit cuts to the and

:16:10.:16:12.

nail in this house, to force this government and I hope we can rely on

:16:13.:16:17.

the opposition parties to stand firm as well. Labour abstained on the

:16:18.:16:25.

23rd of July. What we have heard from government that MM and 34

:16:26.:16:30.

tabled last Wednesday does represent some progress, I am grateful for

:16:31.:16:33.

that because of that because the technology is there was... It

:16:34.:16:39.

manages to deal with it to some extent. That proposal in Clause 34

:16:40.:16:44.

would partially mitigate the impact of the tax credit cuts will only

:16:45.:16:48.

Clause 18 is much stronger than that. Would fully evolved control

:16:49.:16:53.

over tax credits to the Scottish Parliament, including eligibility,

:16:54.:16:58.

thresholds and tapers. With government amendment 34, the

:16:59.:17:00.

Scotland bill will give the Scottish Parliament the power to top up

:17:01.:17:03.

benefits and that is fine as far as it goes, but it would be no help to

:17:04.:17:07.

those people who have lost their tax credits entirely as a record, it...

:17:08.:17:17.

It's are you aware that the Secretary of State for Work and

:17:18.:17:21.

Pensions referred the Mac refuses to... If the government did top of

:17:22.:17:26.

benefits, it would not guarantee that they would not take that money

:17:27.:17:33.

away as if it was extra? He makes an absolutely critical point because we

:17:34.:17:35.

have not had clarity from the government. That they will not test

:17:36.:17:42.

these top ups. I'm looking forward to for clarification from the

:17:43.:17:44.

Secretary of State and confirming that that is the case. There are

:17:45.:17:50.

around 80,000 families in Scotland who are going to lose entitlement

:17:51.:17:53.

altogether under these existing proposals, that is roughly the same

:17:54.:17:58.

number as when affected by the bedroom tax in Scotland. Also the

:17:59.:18:03.

Scottish Parliament may have the power to create a new benefit, that

:18:04.:18:07.

seems inordinately complex way to go about things. It is theoretically

:18:08.:18:10.

possible but like the tax mitigation, that money would have to

:18:11.:18:15.

be fed from other devolved budgets, it would be an admission from the

:18:16.:18:19.

government that their proposals have not worked. As I said already,

:18:20.:18:23.

Nicola Sturgeon has made absolutely clear ring for the proposals, but I

:18:24.:18:26.

think Labour needs to be clear tonight as well. Whether they will

:18:27.:18:31.

back our New Clause 18 or once again with a cause... Sit on their hands

:18:32.:18:39.

in the face of crushing... I am very conscious of time. Mr Speaker, the

:18:40.:18:45.

bottom line is that we would rather not be at the mercy of this UK

:18:46.:18:51.

government. I rather we have powers in Scotland not just to mitigate the

:18:52.:18:56.

worst side effects of joining forces, but the powers did develop

:18:57.:19:02.

better alternatives. With the very limited powers already included in

:19:03.:19:05.

the Scotland bill, the Scottish Government has already made a range

:19:06.:19:08.

of commitments on how they're going to use those powers and develop ways

:19:09.:19:11.

forward. Discuss government has already committed that allowance

:19:12.:19:17.

will match jobseeker's allowance. Demolishing the bedroom tax,

:19:18.:19:19.

replacing the work programme which is not working, and committing to

:19:20.:19:25.

reflecting that... Offering people more choice on how they manage their

:19:26.:19:29.

money. This Scottish Government has been consulting with new minute to

:19:30.:19:33.

my numerous stakeholders so far on how those new powers can best be

:19:34.:19:40.

used to serve people. Mr Deputy Speaker, New Clause 19 devolved

:19:41.:19:42.

control over employment rights and industrial relations including...

:19:43.:19:46.

This is another place where the Scotland bill falls short of the

:19:47.:19:51.

recognition. Once again, this Clause is extremely topical given that

:19:52.:19:54.

tomorrow concludes that tomorrow concludes the debate on the

:19:55.:19:57.

government changing the bill. Last week I met with constituents who

:19:58.:20:02.

left me with no doubt about the harm this bill has the potential to

:20:03.:20:05.

cause. Special ink Scotland and throughout the UK. Contrast and

:20:06.:20:10.

Clause 19 which allows the government to take a different

:20:11.:20:15.

approach to maintain the benefits of constructive industrial relations. I

:20:16.:20:19.

would be delighted to give way. I am very grateful. Can my honourable

:20:20.:20:26.

friend confirm that the evolving of industrial relations is supported by

:20:27.:20:31.

Scotland's worker Parliament. The General Counsel and one of the

:20:32.:20:34.

reasons for that is so that we can do more work with the Scottish

:20:35.:20:44.

convention. 46,540 cases of unfair treatment in the workplace. I think

:20:45.:20:51.

he makes a very pertinent point he cause in calling for the transfer of

:20:52.:20:56.

powers for employment, and the minimum wage, and the S TC has

:20:57.:21:00.

experienced support for the devolution of these powers but also

:21:01.:21:05.

known to the appetite of Scotland, reducing the quality and desire to

:21:06.:21:09.

forge a more positive relationship with trade unions. I would not give

:21:10.:21:12.

way at the moment because I'm conscious of time and I have a lot

:21:13.:21:15.

of amendment to get through. It is inevitable that governments will

:21:16.:21:19.

face tough negotiations with employee representatives from time

:21:20.:21:21.

to time and will sometimes be disagreements but we should not lose

:21:22.:21:25.

sight for one moment from the enormously beneficial role that

:21:26.:21:29.

displays in the past and present day to encourage for work and wages,

:21:30.:21:33.

improved working environment I will give way. What happened to the great

:21:34.:21:45.

trade unions. Think the honourable gentleman should be addressing that

:21:46.:21:48.

to the Scottish Union Congress because they are the ones calling

:21:49.:21:52.

for the devolution of... The Scottish government sees tree

:21:53.:21:58.

deviance as key social workers and part of society and is not OK for

:21:59.:22:01.

the UK government to restrict the ability of trade unions to represent

:22:02.:22:06.

the members effectively. I will be opposing that tomorrow but we need

:22:07.:22:09.

those powers to ball then there's an option needed to do that tonight. Mr

:22:10.:22:12.

Deputy Speaker there are a number of clauses and amendments tabled that

:22:13.:22:15.

relate to employment and Social Security. Not all of which have

:22:16.:22:20.

adequate time to debate fully tonight, but New Clause 22 would

:22:21.:22:24.

evolve support the Scottish Parliament and we can't let existing

:22:25.:22:28.

provisions in the bill. Significant restrictions supporting the bill,

:22:29.:22:32.

particularly regarding programmes at least 12 months. ... Scottish

:22:33.:22:39.

Government will be able to take a stronger and earlier action to be

:22:40.:22:43.

people and to work. New Clause 23 devolves all be working benefits to

:22:44.:22:47.

place by universal credit and any benefit to replace universal credit

:22:48.:22:54.

overwhelmingly civics Scotland powers should be in the hands of the

:22:55.:22:57.

Scottish Parliament to allow us to tailor policies in line with our own

:22:58.:23:01.

priorities and values. And enable us to protect the children of lower

:23:02.:23:07.

income families. Full devolution of universal credit which allows us to

:23:08.:23:11.

establish a better security system for Scotland. Mr W Seeger, New

:23:12.:23:20.

Clause 24 runs the powers... The conditionality does... It's

:23:21.:23:27.

manifested failure to protect them as mobile people in our communities

:23:28.:23:32.

have all witnessed the acceptable so exposure to food banks and the last

:23:33.:23:35.

couple of years which is the most obvious symptom. The government

:23:36.:23:38.

knows perfectly well that the system is not working which is why the next

:23:39.:23:42.

changes including the new pilot scheme in recent days, but they are

:23:43.:23:46.

taking it to the edges of an punitive and inhumane sanctions

:23:47.:23:50.

regime which is driving sick and vulnerable people to destitution and

:23:51.:23:54.

despair. The Scotland bill is our opportunity to take these powers in

:23:55.:23:57.

the Scotland fans and other forces should join us to deliver a more

:23:58.:24:02.

effective approach. Giving powers over sanctions and conditionality to

:24:03.:24:06.

the Tories is not simply good enough. Mr W Cedar, New Clause 27

:24:07.:24:12.

which I also wish to move would amend schedule five of the Scotland

:24:13.:24:15.

Act and give Scottish Parliament confidence regal opportunities.

:24:16.:24:21.

Taken with the SNP's other amendments, namely amendments

:24:22.:24:29.

16916... Is this New Clause would give the Scottish cup Parliament

:24:30.:24:34.

powers to improve... I'll be delighted to give weight to my

:24:35.:24:35.

friend. Does my friend agreed with the

:24:36.:24:47.

commission the outlines that devolving power over Scottish poem

:24:48.:24:51.

that will allow the Parliament to legislate and give the abilities to

:24:52.:24:54.

people that do have never had before? The lady makes a point well,

:24:55.:25:00.

and I know as well that in previous debates we have talked about Human

:25:01.:25:04.

Rights Act and the role that that that place in securing equality. On

:25:05.:25:12.

the question of the moment implement locking the honourable Lady explain

:25:13.:25:15.

how this is going to work? How will a trade union recognition work in

:25:16.:25:19.

practice, where there are crashed that cross quarter bargaining

:25:20.:25:24.

units, or redundancies spanning both jurisdictions. How that would work?

:25:25.:25:29.

She needs it to her member that a great deal of the public sector is

:25:30.:25:31.

already devolved, and these issues have already been worked out. We

:25:32.:25:35.

already have devolution of a whole range of public services where some

:25:36.:25:39.

of those are negotiated at a national level, and some are

:25:40.:25:44.

negotiated at eight UK level. That seems a redundant point. Cottage

:25:45.:25:49.

Parliament has a good track record of progressive equality measures,

:25:50.:25:58.

and this would enable... This would improve protections for audience

:25:59.:26:02.

determination and a more balanced presentation of women in public

:26:03.:26:05.

life. It is worth pointing out that full devolution of power and

:26:06.:26:11.

opportunities is supported by leading in gender Scotland, the

:26:12.:26:18.

quality, and equality and rights. Executive director said "devilish

:26:19.:26:21.

and bring power closer to people, and this is important for

:26:22.:26:24.

marginalised and discriminating groups stopped --. " For the

:26:25.:26:34.

devolution of the equality legislation would better allow the

:26:35.:26:37.

Scottish Parliament to push for better outcomes. This could lead to

:26:38.:26:45.

improvements in the life chances and ask Scottish quality of life.

:26:46.:26:51.

Amendment 168 relate to the Crown estate. Amendment 168 would leave

:26:52.:26:57.

out the government's existing Clause 31 and two Clause 20 and replace

:26:58.:27:01.

it. As it stands Clause 31 is not true to the peer of the commission

:27:02.:27:05.

which recommended before the illusion of responsibly for the

:27:06.:27:08.

responsibility of the devolution of power in Scotland. The revenue

:27:09.:27:16.

generated from these assets... Closer to one is obligated and

:27:17.:27:24.

excused Crown estate assets. My friend in Edinburgh East has raised

:27:25.:27:31.

concerns already. I'm grateful for giving way. One of the largest

:27:32.:27:41.

investments is in the Edinburgh East. I been pressing the Secretary

:27:42.:27:44.

of State as to why this is excluded in the transfer. Which he agreed

:27:45.:27:49.

that his excavation so far is not convincing, in that he says that it

:27:50.:27:54.

is part of a commercial arrangement? In fact we are only talking about

:27:55.:27:59.

transfer of the government's responsibilities, and the

:28:00.:28:03.

government's components within the relationship. I agree, he makes his

:28:04.:28:08.

point well. As someone who represents coastal communities who

:28:09.:28:11.

have been held back for decades because of the decades -- I for one

:28:12.:28:18.

cannot wait to see the public assets be brought under a Democratic icon

:28:19.:28:23.

ability. Working for the good of those communities, cost what it

:28:24.:28:27.

would reduce complexities by rid removing that is that it would

:28:28.:28:32.

provide Scottish Parliament with full legislative power. It would

:28:33.:28:35.

also transfer any fortunes of the Crown estate commissioner in

:28:36.:28:38.

relation to rights to the continental shelf beyond the 200th

:28:39.:28:42.

article mile limit adjacent to Scotland. Up until now the

:28:43.:28:47.

Parliament has not made a good job scrutinising the activities of the

:28:48.:28:50.

Crown estate. We have an opportunity to put that right by opening the

:28:51.:28:54.

Crown estate to better public accountability and to put its asset

:28:55.:28:59.

at the centre of arts committee. There are numbers of amendments that

:29:00.:29:02.

I want to touch on in concluding the. All of these it would

:29:03.:29:07.

strengthen the bill. Cost 29 would give the Scottish permit control of

:29:08.:29:12.

the relation of political broadcasts for local elections, Scottish

:29:13.:29:16.

elections, and elections held in Scotland. As per the Smith

:29:17.:29:19.

commission recommendation in progress 23. That seems to be left

:29:20.:29:24.

out of the legislation today. New Clause 30 divulge broadcasting by

:29:25.:29:27.

amending schedule five of the Scotland Act. This Clause would not

:29:28.:29:31.

impact in the delivery of the proposals in the skit sketch Smith

:29:32.:29:35.

commission in BBC and .com, both of which have been delivered in a

:29:36.:29:38.

memorandum of understanding. It would provide a wider role in

:29:39.:29:42.

broadcasting policy for the Scottish Parliament in the future. Amendment

:29:43.:29:47.

182 and 23 relates to giving machine and life -- licensing betting

:29:48.:29:57.

premises. It would give more data that New Clause 31 would give the

:29:58.:30:02.

Scottish Parliament general legislative competence over

:30:03.:30:06.

agriculture and fisheries. This is a firm that cannot come soon enough.

:30:07.:30:10.

It and acceptable situations abroad by Scottish fishermen to who have

:30:11.:30:16.

led the levees is to promote promote Norwegian fish. Instead of using

:30:17.:30:21.

Scottish seafood in markets. The UK Sea Fish industry organises the fish

:30:22.:30:29.

and chip awards it that is organised by the Norwegian councils. Finalists

:30:30.:30:33.

of the 2016 awards are being taken to Norway to learn about the supply

:30:34.:30:38.

of fish from the richer the UK. I have no problem with their

:30:39.:30:41.

competition, but I have massive problem with fishermen in my

:30:42.:30:45.

constituency being forced to have levees that are being used by public

:30:46.:30:52.

funded bodies to fund businesses. In eastern and. These associations

:30:53.:30:56.

support the evolution of this, which would be used better to promote talk

:30:57.:31:02.

top-quality local parties. Clause 32 would give Scottish ministers power

:31:03.:31:08.

to decide who would run rail services. Paragraph 65. Pulau

:31:09.:31:12.

public-sector operators to bid for real franchises, amendment 24 and 18

:31:13.:31:21.

would provide programmes in Scotland... Amendment 189 removes

:31:22.:31:30.

extra chins on the consultation progress that is that this would

:31:31.:31:34.

bring the bill into line with the Smith commission recommendation for

:31:35.:31:44.

former -- lastly, New Clause 33 would enact a formal consultative

:31:45.:31:47.

role for the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament setting

:31:48.:31:52.

strategic priorities of the aviation Authority. He is an important issue

:31:53.:31:57.

to my honourable friend. Does she agree that the time for debating is

:31:58.:32:02.

woefully inadequate giving that magnitude and importance of the

:32:03.:32:05.

issues, and the number of amendments later by the government. Does she

:32:06.:32:11.

agree that caused 33 to have power over civil litigation is very

:32:12.:32:16.

important, particularly to my constituents and in many other areas

:32:17.:32:19.

of Livingston who have been affected by the first flight path in 40 years

:32:20.:32:22.

in Scotland. The Scottish government she makes a important point that

:32:23.:32:33.

would make a huge difference to her constituents copy she highlights the

:32:34.:32:36.

lack of democratic accountability that some of these dishes and have

:32:37.:32:41.

at this present time. We have heard language about the Scotland bill

:32:42.:32:46.

today, they represent an historic departure, it creates a problem --

:32:47.:32:50.

powerhouse Parliament, but I welcomed the changes that the

:32:51.:32:52.

government is bringing forward. Decided rhetoric and the world with

:32:53.:32:57.

a hide the fact that the bill falls short of the Smith commission

:32:58.:33:00.

proposals. More than that, it falls a long way sure of the promises made

:33:01.:33:05.

to the people of Scotland. The SNP amendments are significantly

:33:06.:33:09.

strengthened -- would strengthen the bill and bring it closer to the

:33:10.:33:13.

expectations and aspirations of the voters who voted out in

:33:14.:33:17.

unprecedented numbers for change. It will be those with low and average

:33:18.:33:24.

incomes, families with incomes -- children, as they suffer under Tory

:33:25.:33:29.

austerity. Fans have been made for the modest proposal and the skeleton

:33:30.:33:33.

bill tonight. Members could develop met immeasurably by backing bills I

:33:34.:33:39.

have moved. I asked them to stand with us tonight and interest of the

:33:40.:33:41.

Scottish bill. Can I briefly comment on the

:33:42.:33:57.

proposal to devolve abortion law to the Scottish Parliament. Would have

:33:58.:34:03.

had a framework in place since 1967 which does allow decisions to be

:34:04.:34:08.

made by women with their doctors, personal decisions that are often

:34:09.:34:14.

very difficult but should rightly be made by women in those

:34:15.:34:16.

circumstances. I worry that this proposal, without proper

:34:17.:34:19.

consultation is being rushed through. It does allow for different

:34:20.:34:25.

frameworks in Scotland and in England and Wales. We know that

:34:26.:34:28.

where that has happened including in Ireland, but it also part of the

:34:29.:34:33.

states, that has meant that a lot of women have had to travel in order to

:34:34.:34:37.

get the abortion services, or in order to get the advice on health

:34:38.:34:43.

care that they need. Often in very vulnerable situations, we do not

:34:44.:34:45.

think that it is right for women in those situations to have to travel

:34:46.:34:49.

far from home, far from family, in order to get the services and

:34:50.:34:52.

support that they need. That is what this amendment allows. It also opens

:34:53.:34:58.

the door for campaigning, deliver a campaign against a fermented system.

:34:59.:35:03.

We have seen in the US, where anti-abortion campaigners have

:35:04.:35:08.

deliberately targeted states, by state, legislative by legislative,

:35:09.:35:15.

and that have made no change at a federal level, but at state-level.

:35:16.:35:19.

To have brought in a 200 changes and restrictions on women's access to

:35:20.:35:24.

abortion over a period of three years alone. I think it is a sad

:35:25.:35:32.

reflection of a mistrust in the Labour Party that it embers have...

:35:33.:35:39.

With anything that might require some thought and care. Why is it

:35:40.:35:43.

that Labour members here have such low opinions of this? I think that

:35:44.:35:51.

the honourable member is missing the point completely. This is about

:35:52.:35:54.

whether or not you have different frameworks, and therefore the

:35:55.:35:58.

possibility for different frameworks on whether you are expected women to

:35:59.:36:01.

travel because the jurisdictions are different. There is a huge

:36:02.:36:06.

significant chance for the anti-abortion campaigners... They

:36:07.:36:11.

want to campaign. I want to point out to the House that this amendment

:36:12.:36:17.

die that I have no time. This amendment was not initially put

:36:18.:36:22.

forward by the SNP, or by the Scottish Secretary. It was put

:36:23.:36:28.

forward by MPs who have campaigned for a long time for much greater

:36:29.:36:33.

restrictions on abortion. The whole house should consider the fact the

:36:34.:36:36.

anti-abortion campaigners want the opportunity. You can stand here

:36:37.:36:45.

waiting. She wishes to give way, and I will indicate that you're coming

:36:46.:36:48.

down, but you cannot stand there waiting on the off chance that she

:36:49.:36:52.

will give way. The honourable Lady would like to look for the chair. We

:36:53.:36:58.

had given -- been given too little time so I cannot give way. I urge us

:36:59.:37:03.

to consider anti-abortion campaigners want this opportunity to

:37:04.:37:08.

fragment us and divide is. All of us who support the 1957 act odds to

:37:09.:37:12.

believe that we should stand together, and should not allow

:37:13.:37:17.

anti-abortion campaigners to divide us. I urge the House to reconsider

:37:18.:37:23.

this, we should consult on this properly, we should stay to

:37:24.:37:25.

reconsider this, we should consult on this properly, we should take

:37:26.:37:29.

into consideration, and we should bow against this amendment tonight.

:37:30.:37:43.

I want to support what my friend has said. I want to remind the house

:37:44.:37:55.

took a reconsider on this issue. When of the original dilution act of

:37:56.:38:02.

1997 and 19 98 report together, the decision not to devolve the

:38:03.:38:07.

legislative from work for the abortion was not an accident. It was

:38:08.:38:15.

carefully considered. The reason was this. We examined the issue

:38:16.:38:20.

carefully at the time. We tug came to the conclusion that it did not

:38:21.:38:27.

make good legislative sense to allow for two different legislative

:38:28.:38:32.

frameworks on this issue. We are pressed for time. There with me. --

:38:33.:38:42.

bear with me. We had experience of what happens when this is the case.

:38:43.:38:52.

We had experience when ten women a day travelled from the Republic of

:38:53.:38:56.

Ireland because they are in different jury distractions. I do

:38:57.:38:59.

not predict that this will happen, but this allows for the possibility.

:39:00.:39:05.

I say briefly, the logic was right then, and there is no logic to have

:39:06.:39:10.

two different legislative from works on this issue 18 years later. Thank

:39:11.:39:18.

you, it is a great pleasure to move our new causes to this part of the

:39:19.:39:25.

bill. Causes two, three, five. There is amendment and causes that my

:39:26.:39:31.

friends have brought. With a lot of ground to still cover in the short

:39:32.:39:35.

debate, it is important to stay at the outset the crucial welfare

:39:36.:39:39.

clauses in this bill. The fact that the crucial welfare causes deliver

:39:40.:39:46.

on the said agreement in spirit and substance. That was not the case

:39:47.:39:50.

before the government tabled its amendment last Monday. That is why,

:39:51.:39:54.

and my SNP colleagues were right to highlight earlier that the leader of

:39:55.:39:59.

the Scottish Labour Party did it the bow had been met, the architect of

:40:00.:40:06.

the... The premise or medicine point. Given that the Minister has

:40:07.:40:10.

laid the elements of this Monday, we believe that the benefits has been

:40:11.:40:16.

resolved and it has been delivered. This is a victory for the Scottish

:40:17.:40:20.

Parliament, the importance of which cannot be overstated. I said at the

:40:21.:40:23.

end of the committee stage of the debate that if the government did

:40:24.:40:27.

nothing else, nothing else, they should concede to my amendment 31 at

:40:28.:40:31.

that time, which would allow the Scottish government the power to

:40:32.:40:37.

create Social Security system, and two cause 34 does that. Inhabiting

:40:38.:40:45.

the way. Can he tell me if he thinks that the proposals as laid down

:40:46.:40:49.

tonight are as close to federalism as you can get? Yes or no? I'm glad

:40:50.:40:55.

he said that, because it allows me to put the record straight. What the

:40:56.:41:00.

SNP don't say it allows me to put the record straight. What the SNP

:41:01.:41:06.

don't say is said sentence was as opposed to federalism as we can get,

:41:07.:41:10.

and the context of 85% of it being one block called England. That is

:41:11.:41:13.

what he said, and a something we talk about when they talk about as

:41:14.:41:19.

near to federalism as possible. I think Gordon Brown can speak for

:41:20.:41:23.

himself when he says these things. That is the context that he put this

:41:24.:41:32.

particular bill and. This man agreed with the amendments that have come

:41:33.:41:35.

forward on welfare from the Secretary of State. We agree as

:41:36.:41:38.

well, and I thought there would have been some kind of a consensus across

:41:39.:41:42.

the chamber for these particular amendments. Limiter two plus two in

:41:43.:41:47.

the government and cause 34. Part three of the bill devolves to the

:41:48.:41:50.

Scottish Parliament substantial power over welfare, transferred to

:41:51.:41:54.

?20 million worth of wealth response abilities. When this was debated in

:41:55.:42:02.

committee, this present an opportunity for Scotland. Today we

:42:03.:42:07.

will pass bills that will transform Scottish relationship with Social

:42:08.:42:10.

Security system. That is why the bill is so important to. According

:42:11.:42:15.

to the House of Commons Library, if the bill were passed in the present

:42:16.:42:19.

form, the Scottish Parliament would be refundable for 62% of public

:42:20.:42:25.

legislative -- as In it bill -- and cause 34, it it will give Scottish

:42:26.:42:34.

garment power to create benefits in all areas. It'd be up to the

:42:35.:42:37.

Scottish Government to design the system that they want, and at the

:42:38.:42:41.

Scottish system voted for, and to find the resources for that system.

:42:42.:42:45.

The same goes for Clause 14, which devolves Scottish Parliament

:42:46.:42:51.

regarding welfare foods. That was an SNP movement and we support that.

:42:52.:42:57.

This visit agreements recommendation, and delivering on

:42:58.:43:00.

this commitment has been a priority for this side of the house. We table

:43:01.:43:04.

of the admission -- initial New Clause, which the government guarded

:43:05.:43:10.

-- voted against. I'm delighted that they have come to earlier thinking

:43:11.:43:15.

as he is done on the veto. As of the SNP finally conceded halfway to

:43:16.:43:19.

Scottish Labour debate and discuss problem last week, and as we have

:43:20.:43:23.

heard again tonight, the original cause 21, and this New Clause

:43:24.:43:27.

affords the Scottish Parliament the power to also top of any reserve

:43:28.:43:32.

benefit. There can be no doubt that the Scotland bill will all route --

:43:33.:43:36.

allowed the government to fully compensate the Scottish families

:43:37.:43:38.

affected by the government's pernicious cuts to tax credits.

:43:39.:43:46.

Style and will pay for administration of tax credits, and

:43:47.:43:50.

they will also pay for an assertion and to top of tax credits. In order

:43:51.:43:54.

to do that, instead of developing it, why should we pay for this

:43:55.:44:00.

administration twice? It allows for the top up of any reserve benefit,

:44:01.:44:08.

and from any devolves benefit. We use the terminology, we would have

:44:09.:44:11.

to create new top of reserve benefit. The bill does this, and

:44:12.:44:16.

this is where a lot of the Senate -- misunderstanding comes from Tama

:44:17.:44:19.

because of these benefits are not being devolved there been switched

:44:20.:44:22.

off. Therefore the Scottish Government would have to come

:44:23.:44:25.

forward with proposed -- proposals and provisions in the bill. We are

:44:26.:44:30.

running out of time so Lenny Prasanna. We will not cut tax

:44:31.:44:34.

credits for Scottish working families. The Scottish Labour Party

:44:35.:44:40.

has -- Scottish Labour Party has made a clear. We are clear on how we

:44:41.:44:45.

would pay for that. We made it obvious I'm for different occasions.

:44:46.:44:48.

We have not heard from the SNP if we they will match that. If they look

:44:49.:44:52.

at the record, I ensure that it is a clearly cost-effective policy using

:44:53.:44:58.

powers in the Scotland bill to be able to deliver that policy. Mr

:44:59.:45:09.

Deputy Speaker, we have already had complained about a restricted

:45:10.:45:15.

debate, and therefore the provisions of what takes too much time... In

:45:16.:45:22.

order for us to be able to get to what we want to. The Secretary of

:45:23.:45:27.

State has, into the Labour way of thinking and considering the

:45:28.:45:29.

benefits of. The bill strikes the right balance of reserve and the

:45:30.:45:36.

right areas -- areas. That is what the Smith agreement says. The state

:45:37.:45:40.

and welfare system should remain shared across these islands. Closet

:45:41.:45:44.

three it would establish a joint committee on welfare devolution to

:45:45.:45:47.

oversee the transition and the limitation of the welfare answered

:45:48.:45:53.

by this bill. That goes some way to resolving the integration --

:45:54.:45:55.

intervention by the honourable gentleman. This bill requires a

:45:56.:46:01.

cross Parliament committee to oversee and limitation of welfare

:46:02.:46:08.

powers. DS CBO have welcomed the New Clause as I quote," a dramatic

:46:09.:46:13.

proposal given the need to ensure continuous delivery of Social

:46:14.:46:16.

Security payments to those who receive them." And new committee

:46:17.:46:23.

must be transparent and open. We have seen from the Scottish

:46:24.:46:28.

government that if the Sid -- secret of fiscal Freiburg is not to

:46:29.:46:32.

liking... We cannot allow that to happen in regards to these important

:46:33.:46:37.

welfare provisions. In a Clause five, while Labour key aim is to

:46:38.:46:43.

fulfil recognitions of the Smith agreement, they are prepared to go

:46:44.:46:46.

beyond if they see a reasonable argument. Stop us to Clause five,

:46:47.:46:49.

which goes down the Smith agreement in seeking to devolve universal

:46:50.:46:54.

credit to the Scottish moment. Amendment 20 one, 22, and 23, an

:46:55.:46:59.

area I was I believe we should go beyond which the Smith agreement

:47:00.:47:04.

recommended, is making payments to sanctions individuals. The Labour

:47:05.:47:10.

Party is committed to reviewing the UN sanctions... The punitive nature

:47:11.:47:16.

which is beginning to spiral out of control, forcing people into

:47:17.:47:20.

destitution on the back of the WP targets. This is why we need the

:47:21.:47:23.

Scottish province to have the power to make payments to individuals... I

:47:24.:47:33.

would like to move onto Labour amendment 2425 which I will address

:47:34.:47:38.

alongside government amendment 77 and 78. These are concerned that the

:47:39.:47:43.

proceedings on the face of the bill of a UK ministerial veto in relation

:47:44.:47:47.

to the regulations passed at universal credit being transferred

:47:48.:47:51.

to the Scottish promise. The Secretary of State has listened and

:47:52.:47:54.

not just to the Labour Party, but could SNP on this particular issue,

:47:55.:47:59.

has rejected those causes, and has removed the perceived to. When I

:48:00.:48:03.

wrote to Secretary of State, he wrote back and said clearly and get

:48:04.:48:08.

immediate insurance that the UK government would have "a legal

:48:09.:48:12.

obligation to implement any changes made by Scottish ministers." Let me

:48:13.:48:19.

also to amendment 17 and welcome amendment 71. These would remove the

:48:20.:48:28.

restrictive regulations. I am disappointed that the restrictions

:48:29.:48:31.

on disability allowance have not been listed. Amendment 194 offers an

:48:32.:48:40.

alternative flexible definition of benefit. I hope that if the

:48:41.:48:44.

Secretary of State cannot give us a satisfactory actor -- answer, we'll

:48:45.:48:49.

at the next stage. Let me turn briefly, if I may, to the issue of

:48:50.:48:53.

abortion or. Let me make it clear that no one in this chamber is a

:48:54.:48:58.

saying that the postponement does not have the capacity, or indeed the

:48:59.:49:03.

responsibility to do with abortion. Way said Amy Smith agreement is that

:49:04.:49:06.

there would be a process. We have said very eloquently, that the issue

:49:07.:49:14.

with regard to the devolution of abortion has to be done properly and

:49:15.:49:21.

sensitively. The Secretary of State in my intervention earlier said in

:49:22.:49:24.

the House in July that the Smith agreement did not allow for the

:49:25.:49:27.

devolution of abortion at this stage, and it would not be in this

:49:28.:49:32.

bill. At proper process would be put in place to ensure that it is done

:49:33.:49:37.

and sensitively, properly, and in consultation with women

:49:38.:49:39.

organizations in Scotland. I do not think that the Secretary of

:49:40.:49:50.

State... It does not take into account the issues that many women

:49:51.:49:53.

in Scotland have contacted me about. Let me make this point, this is not

:49:54.:50:00.

about the time limit for abortion. This is around the entire COMDEX

:50:01.:50:04.

matrix of the legislative functions behind us, the criminality of

:50:05.:50:09.

abortion, the issues of authorisation of abortion, where

:50:10.:50:12.

abortion can be carried out. It is not just about 24 weeks, is much

:50:13.:50:17.

much more than that, and the Secretary of State should reflect on

:50:18.:50:20.

the fact that a proper consultation needs to be put in place, otherwise

:50:21.:50:24.

he is in danger of doing something incredibly dangerous for abortion in

:50:25.:50:30.

this country. The Secretary of State said time and time again when taking

:50:31.:50:35.

in the intervention, that his view was that this postponement had the

:50:36.:50:39.

capacity to legislate on this. With my friend agree with me, it is not a

:50:40.:50:43.

question of whether or not the capacity is there, is a question of

:50:44.:50:47.

whether or not it is desirable to have two different legislator

:50:48.:50:50.

regimes between Scotland and England? This may happen anyway, and

:50:51.:51:00.

I'm confident in because promise. I take the first ministers word --

:51:01.:51:07.

will not change the legislation. You would end up with abortion, and no

:51:08.:51:11.

one wants that across the United Kingdom. The Scottish act did not

:51:12.:51:18.

make it to this place, but this person was heavily involved in it. I

:51:19.:51:24.

will quickly move on, because I want to move to an image 26, the

:51:25.:51:30.

sentiment makes a exquisite that among the X exceptions, the power is

:51:31.:51:37.

being devolved to the ScottishPower -- power -- Parliament to extend

:51:38.:51:42.

corners. He Labour Party take this seriously, and we think the campaign

:51:43.:51:44.

for helping us for this particular issue. I want to remove to amendment

:51:45.:51:51.

225. We now have a welfare section of this bill that, in line with this

:51:52.:51:56.

agreement, everyone in this timber should be proud of that achievement,

:51:57.:51:59.

and we must move onto the debate of how to these powers. Thank you. Mr

:52:00.:52:14.

Speaker, I do not want to say too much more at this stage, other than

:52:15.:52:21.

to welcome the fact that other than the discussion around the issue of

:52:22.:52:24.

abortion, which I will come back to, I welcome the fact that the

:52:25.:52:32.

government causes that have been proposed have been accepted. I am

:52:33.:52:37.

grateful for that. I set out one of the bill was an committee stage that

:52:38.:52:43.

we would listen to proposals which came forward, sensible proposals

:52:44.:52:48.

within the context of the Smith agreement. That is what we have

:52:49.:52:52.

done. That is why I am not persuaded by amendments which have been

:52:53.:53:05.

tabled, which have been set out in relation to the welfare system.

:53:06.:53:09.

These were not amendments in relation to areas which form a part

:53:10.:53:14.

of agreement. As we have mentioned, the SNP were of course part of the

:53:15.:53:21.

Smith commission process, and signed up up to an agreement, which at that

:53:22.:53:25.

point for example did not seek to devolve tax credits to the Scottish

:53:26.:53:32.

Parliament. Instead, what was devolved its extensive powers that

:53:33.:53:37.

allowed the topping up of tax credits and other benefits. Allows

:53:38.:53:41.

Gratian of new benefits in devolved areas, and the topping up of child

:53:42.:53:49.

benefit. It allows changes to be made to income tax in

:53:50.:53:59.

Asked the Secretary of State for pensions, can the Minister assure us

:54:00.:54:07.

that in the event the Scottish Government decides to top of

:54:08.:54:12.

benefits, it would not be considered any kind of... At a later stage? The

:54:13.:54:19.

Scottish Government will have to take into consideration all the it

:54:20.:54:29.

makes. Because it will be responsible and accountable. We will

:54:30.:54:34.

see a change, I suspect Mr Deputy Speaker, a change from on the costed

:54:35.:54:40.

promises to one of having to be held to account from where the money is

:54:41.:54:48.

coming from. I do not agree with the Scottish Labour Party's agreement to

:54:49.:54:52.

put out the taxes of hard-working people in Scotland, but at least

:54:53.:54:56.

they are honest about it, they want to put out tax to pay for additional

:54:57.:55:03.

benefits in Scotland. That is a position which is fair for them. The

:55:04.:55:08.

Scottish national party have said nothing about how they will deploy

:55:09.:55:12.

these significant new powers and once again, in relation to welfare,

:55:13.:55:19.

the focus has been solely on what can be done, rather than applying

:55:20.:55:25.

thoughts and rigour to exactly what could be done. Benefits in Scotland

:55:26.:55:30.

could completely be redesigned. It is like disability benefits. Reserve

:55:31.:55:36.

benefits that the Scottish Parliament can talk up, as we have

:55:37.:55:41.

heard about. And changes to the income tax, but that is not where

:55:42.:55:46.

the thought process is, the thought process is entirely on what we

:55:47.:55:51.

cannot do. It really has been a case this evening as we have heard, the

:55:52.:55:56.

various statements in relation to benefits, it really has been...

:55:57.:56:05.

Rather than devolve. I note that the right honourable Lady does not agree

:56:06.:56:11.

with my position on abortion. I know that she is minded to oppose this

:56:12.:56:17.

measure. But what I would offer to her, even in the context of that

:56:18.:56:21.

opposition is to be with her and any of her colleagues who have concerns

:56:22.:56:27.

to discuss how we can best, if my amendment is carried, how we can

:56:28.:56:32.

best take forward this issue to ensure that the matters she set out

:56:33.:56:36.

do not come to power. I do not believe they will, I strongly

:56:37.:56:40.

believe the Scottish Parliament has the capacity to deal with this

:56:41.:56:44.

issue. I believe there is no constitutional reason why this

:56:45.:56:50.

amendment should not be made. The Smith commission did indeed

:56:51.:56:53.

recommend that it be done. It recommended that it be sensitively

:56:54.:56:56.

done, recommended the process, and I'm very happy to talk about that

:56:57.:57:01.

process. I know the Scottish Government is happy to talk about

:57:02.:57:05.

that process, and engage with interested parties. I do on that

:57:06.:57:12.

basis hope that the House will not divide on these issues. The

:57:13.:57:16.

government has set out its amendments, I believe the amendments

:57:17.:57:20.

set out by both Labour, no I will not. I believe the amendments set

:57:21.:57:25.

out by both Labour and the SNP in relation to this grouping go beyond

:57:26.:57:31.

what the Smith commission proposed. I believe the government amendments

:57:32.:57:35.

deliver the Smith commission in full, and on that basis I move my

:57:36.:57:40.

amendment, government amendments, for the support of the House in that

:57:41.:57:45.

regard. The question is that New Clause 14 be read a second time. I

:57:46.:57:58.

think the ayes have it. The question is that New Clause 14 be added to

:57:59.:58:09.

the bill. I think the ayes have it. Government New Clause 34. Minister

:58:10.:58:14.

to move formally. New Clause 34 B read a second time. The ayes have

:58:15.:58:24.

it. The question is that New Clause 34 be added to the bill. The ayes

:58:25.:58:37.

have it. Government New Clause 15. Minister to move formally. The

:58:38.:58:41.

question is that government New Clause 15 B read a second time.

:58:42.:58:48.

Clear the lobby. The question as the government New

:58:49.:01:12.

Clause 15 be read a second time. Tellers for the ayes, George Colin

:01:13.:01:18.

Berry and Margot James. Tellers for the noes, Jeff Smith and foxtrot.

:01:19.:06:55.

Border! -- order. The ayes to the right 350, to noes to the left 183.

:06:56.:11:35.

The ayes to the right, 350, the noes to the left, 183. The ayes have it.

:11:36.:11:47.

Unlock. The question is that government New Clause 15 be added to

:11:48.:12:02.

the bill. The ayes have it. Minister to move formally that government new

:12:03.:12:10.

clauses 16 and 17 be added to the bill. The government new clauses 16

:12:11.:12:20.

and 17 be added to the bill. The ayes have it. A member of the

:12:21.:12:33.

Scottish national party front bench. Two distinguished colleagues.

:12:34.:12:42.

Seeking to move. They will move New Clause 18 formally. Thank you, the

:12:43.:12:51.

question is New Clause 18 be read a second time. Division! Clear the

:12:52.:12:59.

lobby! Border! The question of the New

:13:00.:15:12.

Clause 18 be added to the bill. -- order. Tellers for the ayes, tellers

:15:13.:15:26.

with Windows. Margot James. -- tellers for the noes.

:15:27.:28:13.

Order! Order! The ayes to the right, 56, the noes into the left, 477. The

:28:14.:28:39.

ayes to the right, 56, the noes to the left, 477. The noes have it. The

:28:40.:28:51.

noes have it. Unlock. Order. A member of the Scottish national

:28:52.:29:05.

party to move Clause 27 formally. The question is will it be added to

:29:06.:29:07.

the bill. Division! Clear the lobby! The question is will cause 27 be

:29:08.:31:24.

added to the bill. Order! The ayes to the right, 61,

:31:25.:40:35.

the noes to the left, 288. The ayes to the right, 61, the noes to the

:40:36.:40:41.

left, 288. The noes have it. The noes have it. Unlock! Order!

:40:42.:40:54.

Government amendments, specifically government amendment 7273, 191, 192,

:40:55.:41:05.

76 to 82, hundred 92 -- under 93, 83 to 98, 100, and number 99. I am

:41:06.:41:21.

informed in the order. The question is that those before a mentioned

:41:22.:41:30.

amendments be made. I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. We come

:41:31.:41:38.

in-out to the opposition front bench amendment 26. We move formally. The

:41:39.:41:44.

question is that amendment 26 be made. Division! Clear the lobby!

:41:45.:44:19.

The question is amendment 26 be made.

:44:20.:50:12.

Order. Order. The ayes to the right, 242, the noes to the left, 287. The

:50:13.:53:45.

ayes to the right, 242, the noes to the left, 287. The noes have it, the

:53:46.:53:56.

noes have it. Unlock. Order. The Minister to move government

:53:57.:54:11.

amendments 101 228. 137 to 154. 129 to 136. This I believe to be done

:54:12.:54:19.

formally. The question is that the government amendments to be made.

:54:20.:54:30.

The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Order. Consideration completed, the

:54:31.:54:38.

reading. Queens consent? Oh, a very fine and not. -- not.

:54:39.:12:28.

Hello and welcome to Monday in Parliament,

:12:29.:37:25.

our look at the best of the day in the Commons and the Lords.

:37:26.:37:28.

Bad tempered exchanges in the Commons as MPs argue over

:37:29.:37:33.

really happening in Scotland under really happening in Scotland under

:37:34.:37:47.

the 1-party state that has become the SNP. Members are not going to

:37:48.:37:51.

listen to

:37:52.:37:52.

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