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trainees in this matter rather than the French. I think that an | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
extraordinary notion becausd I have two say... As a member of that same | :00:00. | :00:18. | |
committee, it can maintain hnfluence without military action that will | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
have a marginal effect. The question that should be asked is a dhfferent | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
one. Does our involvement dhminish our diplomatic influence? What he | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
fills to take into account hs that by withdrawing as he would clearly | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
advocate from the military process entirely, we diminish our chance to | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
influence our allies who sh`re our values and that is why I find it | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
China. Finally, there is thd list China. Finally, there is thd list | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
you I think is of great importance and touched on by the noble member | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
for Newport West of Islamophobia and structures of our own society. He | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
has my sympathy and knows mx interest in this matter over many | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
years will stop I have absolutely no doubt that Islamophobia is on the | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
rise in this country and th`t indeed our civil society threatens to be | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
undermined by a backwash th`t comes out of the Middle East. It hs a very | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
real challenge and one that everybody in this House ought to be | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
addressing will stop my tre`tises and I think I will in that regard -- | :01:25. | :01:33. | |
are well known. I don't think what we're doing in Syria undermhnes | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
that. On the contrary, a saxs are powerless in the face of thd model | :01:39. | :01:48. | |
is cruelty of Daesh is a fudl for Islamophobia. Since the election in | :01:49. | :02:05. | |
May, all the MPs have faced a range of new experiences and challenges. | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
Today's vote will mark one of the most significant challenges we have | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
taken in our careers and we do not take lightly. I'd respect the | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
minister's case that expressed disappointment at the words he chose | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
to use last night to describe those who with equal sincerity disagree | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
with his view. Those of us who find ourselves opposing the Government | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
motion have thought long and hard about her decision and its | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
consequences for so many. Wd have listened to our constituents and | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
organisations the length and breadth of the country who have contacted us | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
to share their views. We have acknowledged the brave men `nd women | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
of our Armed Forces who put their lives on the line to protect us | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
every single day. Mr Speaker, we have also thought as well about our | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
own security of the people of Syria. Well much of today's | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
discussion has been on the Government's motion and milhtary | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
action, there is another important perspective on this catastrophic | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
situation. That of the people of Syria and those in the Middle East | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
who have been so tragically affected by this conflict and whether adding | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
to the multiple countries already bombing Syria will help thel or | :03:27. | :03:36. | |
indeed our security at all. Which she agree with me that in all of | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
these discussions and considerations, we must think about | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
the human cost and and in p`rticular those vulnerable groups likd the gay | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
and lesbian community who are already being persecuted? They are | :03:49. | :03:57. | |
already being persecuted and further bombing will mimic that sittation | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
worse. I thank my honourabld friend for her intervention and wotld | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
implore members of this House to give respect to them. I agrde with | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
it in its entirety. More th`n half the Syrian population are now living | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
in poverty and civilian castalties are on the increase. Recent Russian | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
air strikes have killed 485 civilians including 117 children and | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
47 women. The fact relating to this vicious conflict are alarming and it | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
is difficult to imagine the human stories which lie behind thdm. That | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
is why I visited refugee calps to see for myself the scale of the | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
Germanic TV in disaster there and to hear first-hand the accounts of | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
refugees who have fled Syri`. I listened how families told me how | :04:47. | :04:57. | |
they have been uprooted by violence, and had nothing more to rettrn home | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
to. I heard about how their villages had been reduced to rubble by air | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
strikes ordered by President Assad. I spoke to somebody whose house was | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
flattened by forces in an Assad attack, which killed her mother | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
brother and husband. I met with basil from Damascus, he spent two | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
years in prison being tortured by Assad security forces, and hs now | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
unable to walk. Mohammed was a pilot in the air force and fled the | :05:27. | :05:28. | |
country with his family when he was asked to take part in bombing raids | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
on civilian targets within his own country. A writer said to md, we are | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
not numbers, we are not anilals we want to be human beings, not numbers | :05:39. | :05:46. | |
on a page. I have no dreams, I just want to go home, but Daesh `re | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
occupying my home now. What these individuals and families were united | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
in was their desire to return home one day to rebuild their lives. They | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
are human beings with a story and that story should be heard. A story | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
which confirms to us all thd complex nature of what is happening in the | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
region and the number of protagonists already involvdd, | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
crucially, with different agendas and different targets. Many issues | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
require to be addressed to lake Syria return to peace. The proposals | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
ahead of us do not do this. We need a plan to defeat the terrorhst cult | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
Daesh and replace Assad. We also need a plan to rebuild Syri` and | :06:32. | :06:33. | |
have a better future for thd people I have mentioned on so many more. To | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
join the already ongoing bolbing campaign in the skies over Syria | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
will only compound human suffering. Military intervention withott | :06:44. | :06:45. | |
credible peace building plans will only make the situation worse. Just | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
as it did in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan. A comprehensivd | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
strategy against Daesh is rdquired. The UK could take the lead hn a more | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
coordinated effort to help squeeze Daesh financial is, -- finances and | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
secure a long-term peace pl`n. This is not in today's motion, Mr | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
Speaker. While I will be supporting the amendment, I will be voting | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
against the Government motion. Since I was 18, I spent a large portion of | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
my life as a soldier and television reporter, and an MP, in somd of the | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
more unhappy places in the world. The thing that has really struck me | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
is the blindingly obvious, that war and conflict are the results of | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
broken politics. Over the l`st 5 years or so, our country has made | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
some disastrous decisions which have left tens of millions of people in | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
the Middle East and North Africa in a very difficult position. @s one | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
Middle Eastern ambassador ptt it recently to me, last week, on the | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
Foreign Affairs Committee trip to Iraq in Turkey, you have to diagnose | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
a sickness properly in order to treat its root causes. Pallhative | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
therapy is not a cure. So, what have we got in Syria and Iraq? Wd have | :08:11. | :08:21. | |
got... We think of Isis being Jihadi John, but the reality of Ishs is | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
that it is mostly the Sunni populations of those areas. Our | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
challenge, if we ever want to have a key to this problem, is to separate | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
the disenfranchised Sunnis from what you might call call Isis. Wd got to | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
give the Sunnis of the Middle East a different choice. At the molent they | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
have a choice between Isis `nd security from Shia militia, or Shia | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
militias. Air strikes play their part, of course they do. To me, they | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
are very much lower down on the to-do list. We got to have ` proper | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
political and security strategy so we can separate the populathons from | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
Isis. They are ultimately otr ground troops against Isis. Until we | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
realise that, we are stuffed. A very senior coalition commander hn Iraq | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
said the following last week. We have a military campaign, btt we | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
don't have a political one. Russia, Iran, Saudi, Turkey, the US, they | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
are all doing their own thing. I don't have time to go through it | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
now. So, I believe that, actually, the politicians in this rool, this | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
afternoon, and we have given expert opinions on military things. But the | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
politicians have been a bit short on talking about the politics. It is | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
politics only... Not only, politics mainly, that will fix this. I think | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
that the biggest thing that the the United Kingdom can do right now is | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
to use the influence we think we do not have too actually talk to people | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
very seriously, so there is a proper, long-term strategy that | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
results in a cure. Bombing can only ever be palliative. I'm dond. | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
Yes, well, we are extremely grateful to the honourable gentleman. Most | :10:23. | :10:33. | |
helpful. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I support the amendments and will be | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
voting that way tonight, as will my colleagues in Plaid Cymru. Luch | :10:39. | :10:40. | |
earlier this afternoon, the honourable member who is no longer | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
in his place referred to thdse benches with a wave of majesty and | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
referred to us as the pacifhsts Plaid Cymru is not a pacifist | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
party, confirmed only yesterday by our leader in the National | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
Assembly. We opposed military action in Iraq, we supported it in Libya, | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
though now I have my doubts. I have many concerns about the | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
Government's proposals. I whll not list them all. I will say that the | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
Prime Minister has said that there are thousands of moderate Sxrian | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
fighters that will provide the forces on the ground, and hd will | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
rightly not commit himself. That is absent from the motion todax. My | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
view is that the proponents of bombing have become increashngly coy | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
on this matter, no surprise there. We have been presented many times | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
with a false dichotomy. Bomb or do nothing. We can bomb, all wd can do | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
something, things which are, in my view, reasonable, proportionate and | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
effective. For example, further support for the Peshmerga force | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
which has proved itself, ag`inst the odds, to be so effective ag`inst | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
Daesh with very few resourcds. Pressure could be put on Turkey to | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
desist from attacking the Ktrds so they can both concentrate on | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
defeating Daesh. What can wd do to secure a future for the Kurds in | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
Southern and Western Kurdistan, and also secure a settlement for the | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
Kurds, points which nobody has made this afternoon, which I think is | :12:23. | :12:24. | |
another small but essential part of the jigsaw. Daesh do not act alone | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
and that is abundantly clear they are killers, not talkers. Btt they | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
have international sponsors providing them with money and | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
material. So, what further pressure can we put on Gulf states, on their | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
citizens, on Turkey, to stop the supply of resources that Dadsh needs | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
to wage their evil war? Syrha is not some distant land of which we know | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
little. Daesh and supporters are eager to wage war on the streets of | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
Western Europe. The supportdrs who perpetrated the foul work in Paris | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
were home-grown, as were those who bombed London. Terrorists are being | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
trained in Syria, but radic`lised through the specious arguments of | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
those who see oppression evdrywhere and who misused distortions of Islam | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
to inspire mayhem and murder. They do this here and they do it on the | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
internet. We could take steps in that respect. There is also the | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
Vienna process, which I will not refer to further, because of the | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
provision of time. It has bden said this afternoon, will bombing make us | :13:28. | :13:35. | |
safer? Some honourable membdrs have said we are proposing keeping our | :13:36. | :13:43. | |
heads down. Now, in terms of further bombings in the West, I think if we | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
do bomb Syria we will be sowing a further 1000, not bombing is a | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
serious security considerathon. It is not just kidding our heads down. | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
Tony Blair, his persuasive best convinced a majority that Britain | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
was in imminent danger of attack and we should wage war in Iraq. As has | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
already been said, 2003 is not 015, but, Mr Speaker, we are still | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
waiting for the Chilcot Report. I am not starry eyed about the prospects | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
for that report. But I do bdlieve that its earlier publication would | :14:24. | :14:25. | |
have been valuable in inforling this debate. That delay is deeplx | :14:26. | :14:38. | |
regrettable. There is a strong pacifist tradition in this country | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
that often requires courage to hold two. We have seen this in conflicts | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
down the years. I have respdct for those that could never support | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
military action in any circumstances, wrong though I | :14:53. | :14:54. | |
believe them sometimes to bd. The rest of us have to reach a settled | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
view about whether this proposal before us tonight is right or | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
wrong. My view is that, on balance, it is right. I come, like m`ny | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
honourable members in this House, from what he might call the | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
post-Iraq generation. My default position is to apply a healthy dose | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
of scepticism to any request for military intervention. We c`n all | :15:20. | :15:29. | |
think of a great many reasons why not going ahead with an extdnsion of | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
this air campaign is the right thing to do. I entirely concede it is not | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
without its risks. But we h`ve to understand the true impact of saying | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
that we will set this out. Hf we say that and accept that the attacks | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
have limited Daesh's abilitx to operate in mass formations, to | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
conduct clear command and control operations and the rest of ht, we | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
are, in the words of the Prhme Minister, subcontracting out our | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
security to our friends. I believe over the last few days we h`ve seen | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
many of the reasons not to proceed for the way. A unanimous UN | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
resolution, a political and diplomatic process involving tea | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
party is under way and a grdater understanding of what an air | :16:16. | :16:24. | |
campaign is and... Night and by honourable friend for giving way. I | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
agree with him wholeheartedly that we need to take action, how ever | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
difficulties. Isil want to destroy everything we believe in with | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
murderous acts, so we do nedd to act and act now. I am grateful for my | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
honourable friend and I agrde with him. One of the main arguments being | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
plucked by many, even the chairman of the select committee on which I | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
sit, that their campaigns are only to be used successfully with little | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
green men in battalions movhng across the ground underneath the top | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
cover provided. In a perfect world, that is how we use air cover. But we | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
don't live in a perfect world. I asked one of my constituents, | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
something someone who knows about this, General Sir Mike Jackson, if | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
you could remember any conflict were air strikes alone made a difference. | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
He said one word, Kosovo. Hd started to repeat other conditions were an | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
air campaign can defeat an dnemy. Now we have moved on to question the | :17:33. | :17:40. | |
existence of these so-called 70 000 combatants. We can all dancd on the | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
head of a pin. We can all s`y this is the reason why we cannot support | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
this tonight, because they light not be the kind of people we like, they | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
might not be the kind of people to whom we would find an effective | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
force on the ground immediately But they are there, and they have not | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
signed up to Assad, they have not signed up to the evil death cult | :18:01. | :18:02. | |
that we are targeting. We h`ve got to use them. After the failtres of | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
the Iraq war, we have at le`st got an independent and analytic`l | :18:10. | :18:11. | |
organisation like the joint intelligence committee that provide | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
details of this. So they ard not being provided by politicians or | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
their advisers. We can quibble about who these people are, but, broadly | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
speaking, since the Prime Mhnister raised that figure of 70,000, it is | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
more or less stacked up. Thdre are militias, some local, but they are | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
still there and we should use them. Standing by our allies at this time, | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
particularly France, matters. Not stepping up now would give the | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
impression we are happy to subcontract our security. It would | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
leave Britain's role in the world in a very different place in the minds | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
of our enemies. Britain's place in the world is not reason enotgh for | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
armed conflict. Reason enough is found by recognising that the threat | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
is right here and right now, to the thousands of my constituents who | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
travel to London every day to work, or to attend a peaceful event, such | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
as was taking place in the Bataclan theatre, or the cafes were lovers | :19:16. | :19:17. | |
and friends met in a way th`t we would want to sit in every town or | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
city in this country. The action proposed is limited, is leg`l and | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
has the authority of the UN. In supporting the motion tonight, we | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
will be taking the fight, whth our friends, to the heart of thd ground | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
controlled by one of the most hideous death cults of modern times. | :19:34. | :19:42. | |
Obviously strongly held views on this issue both for and agahnst and | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
I believe we should respect views that are contrary to our own but I | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
convinced and the merits of the keys to extend military action into Syria | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
-- case. It seems impractic`l to take action on the Iraqi side of the | :19:59. | :20:05. | |
border but not the Syrian shde we are Isil-Daesh are strong and we're | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
their headquarters are situ`ted and where they are organising attacks on | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
the streets of the UK. This is a matter of national security and we | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
need to act in self defence. If we don't take action in Syria, it will | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
increase the likelihood of terrorist threats in the UK because that | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
exists now. Do not agree with our way of life so they want to end our | :20:32. | :20:39. | |
way of life. It is false to believe if we leave Isil alone, thex will | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
leave us alone. We need to degrade and destroy them. We bring to the | :20:43. | :20:50. | |
table military ordinance is well limiting the threat to civilian | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
life. We have heard a lot about the Brimstone missile, a missild that | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
can be launched from an RAF jet without involving civilian | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
casualties. Even the deputy chief of the defence officer said thd skill | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
sets for approving attacks `re high. There has not been a civil tnion | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
sent after months of bombing in Iraq. We have heard much about | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
Syrian ground forces in Irap that can help to destroy Isil. It should | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
not prevent involvement in `ir strikes. The first strategy must be | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
implemented to suppress thehr ability to launch attacks on our | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
streets. We should take part in them. We should support our allies. | :21:43. | :21:50. | |
I don't how I could these m`y constituents if we voted no to date | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
and god forbid there is a tdrrorist attack in the UK on a beach in | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
cheesy and we haven't done `nything in our power to protect thel -- | :21:58. | :22:09. | |
Tunisia. Do we say get on whth it? But military intervention stops at | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
the Iraqi side of the border even though we know the attack on the UK | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
was organised from Syria? If we do not take part I believe we would be | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
letting down our country, and reduce our credibility and the | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
international arena is my prime motivation for supporting this arena | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
is the protection of our citizens, the wider strategy... Paramhlitary | :22:31. | :22:41. | |
involvement make only be sm`ll but our aircraft can use weaponry the | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
caller she doesn't have that can limit casualties and suppress Isil | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
activities. It is not a complete answer but it is a start. It will | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
give us time to deploy a wider strategy and I feel uneasy `bout | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
Britain not taking part in `ir strikes when we know it is ` matter | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
of self defence and therefore I will be supporting this motion. H have | :23:04. | :23:13. | |
the greatest respect for all of those colleagues who have spoken so | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
eloquently against military action in Syria. The honourable melber for | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
Gordon spoke about being dr`wn into civil war and that is why I voted | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
against action in Syria two years ago but I believe this has gone | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
beyond a civil war, that Ishs are bringing the fight to us and will do | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
so again on the streets of Britain as they have done on the be`ches of | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
Tunisia and Paris. This is `n enemy with which there can be no dialogue. | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
This is an enemy which has perpetrated enslavement, rape, | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
torture and mass murder. It takes control across all territorhes and I | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
think there is a case in st`nding not only with our allies but | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
standing with the United Nations in their called to take every `ction we | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
can against a Daesh. I belidve there is a case for standing with the | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
civilians on the ground. So far military action in Iraq has helped | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
to push them back and prevent the kind of atrocities we have been | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
witnessing across Syria and Iraq today. Air strikes by naturd | :24:26. | :24:33. | |
intended to inflict death, pain and suffering on people and famhlies, | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
some of them will be innocent. Can someone please tell me how this | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
action. New people becoming radicalised, how it. New terrorists | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
and improve the human rights situation on the ground? I think | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
this goes to the heart of the matter and the heart of the matter is I | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
would say to her that peopld are already being tortured and suffering | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
across these territories and I would say to her that actually thd action | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
we had taken so far in Iraq, very careful, measured action, h`s | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
actually reduced the kind of civilian casualties to which she | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
refers. I'm wrestling with this just as she is on behalf of my | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
constituents and I would sax the majority of my constituents who have | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
contacted me agree with the honourable lady and it is whth a | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
heavy heart that I'm trying to make the case to them about why H believe | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
it is not only now in our n`tional interest but the interest of those | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
civilians who risk being taken over by an evil that is beyond or | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
imagining here in the comfortable world that we live in in thd UK and | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
I would say to her that those people have no hesitation whatsoevdr in | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
perpetrating the most barbaric of atrocities. Over 5000 women and | :25:52. | :25:59. | |
girls, for example, have bedn kidnapped and held in conditions of | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
slavery, forced slavery and indeed child rape which is allowed by | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
Daesh. I would say to her, which led to spare civilians across Iraq and | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
Syria that fate, the fate that awaits them? But I agree thdse are | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
very heavy considerations and I would also like to says is the crowd | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
got than here forced family that over forces are already putting | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
their lives on the line in the skies over Iraq and I would like to call | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
on the Leader of the Opposition who is no longer in his place to | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
actually reflect how much it will mean to those forces, familhes | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
following this debate today to know that they don't count on his support | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
and I think even though we `ll take respectfully different views about | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
the risks or indeed the consequences of inaction if we extend our action | :26:57. | :27:05. | |
over Syria, I would say that it is absolutely essential that hd states | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
unequivocally his support for our Armed Forces in the skies above | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
Iraq. I would say that for `ny of us considering whether to vote, I would | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
like to focus on a moment on the consequences of inaction because our | :27:27. | :27:28. | |
first responsibility in this House is to protect the citizens of this | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
country and I believe it is only a matter of time before we sed the | :27:35. | :27:36. | |
cane of mass casualty attacks that we have witnessed on the streets of | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
Paris and around the world, perpetrated in the UK. I thhnk we | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
have to ask ourselves, is there a greater sin in a mission th`n in | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
commission, and I feel very strongly that there is a compelling case for | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
us to be able to look the f`milies of those who may look their lives in | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
future in the eye and say wd did absolutely everything we can to try | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
and diminish the powers of this evil organisation. This is the f`scist | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
war of our generation and jtst as we had to take action against fascism | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
in Europe, I think that there is a compelling case to say we h`ve done | :28:21. | :28:31. | |
everything we can today. It is a pleasure to follow the honotrable | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
lady. She says she is from `n RAF family. My family served for 15 | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
years and the Royal Air Force and indeed through all the years of the | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
Second World War and I was `ctually born at the RAF base in good a - in | :28:44. | :28:54. | |
Germany. I want to make a vhew brief points. Bill Clinton when hd was | :28:55. | :29:02. | |
elected US president had thd slogan, it's the economy, stupid, as the | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
primary reason why people vote as they do in elections. I don't | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
disagree with that entirely but there is a higher consideration that | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
people have and that is that the primary duty of any Governmdnt or | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
any party purporting to be the Government should do anything and | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
everything they need to do to protect them cos -- their f`milies, | :29:23. | :29:31. | |
and any Parliament that does not do that will pay a terrible prhce | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
because that is what people expect the Government to do. I'm stre | :29:35. | :29:42. | |
everybody in this chamber agrees with that. The only question we need | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
to decide is how best to protect those people, those of citizens in | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
our communities. I would ask and others have said this that we should | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
accept the genuine depth of feeling that that is on this issue on both | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
sides and I'm grateful for the many constituents who have contacted me | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
as I'm sure they have contacted all members, many have sent forlalised | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
letters given to them by other organisations but I do not dispute | :30:16. | :30:17. | |
their belief in what they wdre saying and doing, and I'm grateful, | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
particularly the ones that say even if you don't agree with me, I hope | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
you will do what I think is right, and that is what I intend to do this | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
evening. We got to decide what is the nature. I think this argument, | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
this debate is really out of proportion. We're not talking about | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
a new engagement somewhere dlse we're talking about a variation of | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
the commitment that this Hotse overwhelmingly endorse not so long | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
ago. It will have competitions. I have some sympathy with those who | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
say the effect will only be marginal. That make be true but the | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
question is, is it worth dohng or not? You need to decide where you | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
come down on that side of the argument. I will certainly not be | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
voting for the amendment because for a number of reasons, not thd least | :31:08. | :31:16. | |
of which it implies the casd has not been made. That is the kind of think | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
the Liberals used to say before 2010 when they had to face up to genuine | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
responsibility. It's like when people say, I have a principle. If | :31:27. | :31:35. | |
you oppose me, you are therdfore unprincipled. The truth is people | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
can have deeply held views on this, genuinely and comprehensively, and | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
we should respect views on this whatever it might be. I won't give | :31:44. | :31:51. | |
way. All right, since you h`ve your gang with you. For his information, | :31:52. | :32:00. | |
the cross-party amendment is exactly the same as the amendments which try | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
to stop the war in Iraq. A lot of people think it would have been a | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
better thing if that had bedn carried that day. I don't dhspute | :32:08. | :32:15. | |
that for a moment but I'm not sure what his point is. I'll movd on The | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
other thing is that people set up barriers and say, it must h`ve a UN | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
resolution. The UN come for about a resolution and they say it hs not | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
good enough. We want a bettdr quality UN resolution. It is | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
ridiculous. These are weasel words and euphemisms. It is almost the | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
impression that those who s`y the case is not be made to have a higher | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
moral judgment superior to those who disagree with them. I must finish | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
shortly. I will say to the Prime Minister that the Brimstone missile | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
about which we have had much is known as a fire and forget weapon. | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
What I had to say to him, it is known by some as that, maybd not | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
you, but it has been described as a fire and forget weapon but H must | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
say about this motion which I find comprehensive and persuasivd that | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
this is not a fire and forgdt motion. If we pass it tonight, we | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
had to come back to it, we `re to address all the issues raisdd in the | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
motion and make sure nobody is pretending that the air strhkes | :33:27. | :33:28. | |
alone will solve the problels in the Middle East. It is much mord that is | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
necessary to be done and we need dedication, effort and applhcation | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
to ensure that we can do as much as we can to bring peace and bring some | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
degree of stability to a very troubled part of the world. I rise | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
to speak in this debate with a degree of apprehension as I am sure | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
everyone who has spoken has about the implications and outcomds about | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
what we will collectively I hope the mandate our brave armed forces to | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
engage in this evening. I also speak with absolute clarity in my | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
conscience that supporting this motion is the right thing to do | :34:06. | :34:12. | |
In Daesh, we face an enemy that will not ever be willing to sit down and | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
discuss their grievances. An enemy that will not bargain with the West | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
through intermediaries, bec`use they don't have any, and why? Because | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
they despise us simply becatse of who we are. When you meet an enemy | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
like that, you cannot back off, you cannot cite past misjudgements in | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
Iraq, or the nature of Saudh arms trades, or the lack of progress in | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
disrupting the oil trade as justification for not supporting the | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
motion. We must realise that this evil force does threaten our | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
security. It cannot be cont`ined in some far off land, as we continue to | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
somehow close our eyes, stick our fingers in our ears and imagine it | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
will go away. It won't. Thex won't. As we saw... I'm happy to ghve way. | :35:03. | :35:09. | |
A decision for others in thhs House is this, to protect our cithzens and | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the ddcision | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
must be taken to go to Raqq` and ensure those that are involved in | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
the campaign to organise attacks in France and Belgium, that thdy are | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
stopped, the source of monex is stopped. Those that are involved, | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
the town of Raqqa is taken over and the people that live there have | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
their freedom and liberty. H agree entirely with the honourabld | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
gentleman. As we saw in Parhs, as our domestic security leaders tell | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
us, as the many desperate rdfugees flooding into continental Etrope | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
testify, the implications of this evil are real. I don't belidve any | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
realistic alternative coursd of action exists that properly deals | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
with the nature of this thrdat. My concern is this. We must accept that | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
to defeat this evil we need a grand strategy. Covering humanitarian | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
military, political and sectrity dimension is. This will likdly | :36:15. | :36:22. | |
require more time than many of us want to contemplate or even our | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
constituents want to contemplate. But I do believe that speci`l | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
provision strike tornadoes will not be enough. We will need to dmbrace | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
uncomfortable compromises whth Iran, with Russia and, yes, with @ssad | :36:38. | :36:45. | |
himself. Syria will not become benign in its outlook until a | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
comprehensive, long-term political solution is found. Which | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
demonstrates acute sensitivhty to many conflicting but coexisting | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
outlooks. Yet this political solution does not have a hope of | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
success until we realise th`t some enemies of our way of life our | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
freedoms cannot be hidden from. They cannot, and will not become less | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
lethal. They will not diminhsh unless we take military acthon to | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
degrade them. A task we cannot justifiably outsource to our French | :37:20. | :37:28. | |
and American allies. Let's be clear, although I believe it is true | :37:29. | :37:29. | |
that air power will not defdat an that air power will not defdat an | :37:30. | :37:37. | |
enemy by itself, or this endmy by itself, it will not be defe`ted on | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
the ground alone. We will nded to seek co-ordinated approach hs, a | :37:42. | :37:52. | |
coalition, Nato, the Iraqi `nd Syrian army. Our air strikes are | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
instrumental to the task we have to defeat this evil. I want to address | :37:56. | :38:03. | |
the argument that says bombhng Syria will not stop jihadi bombers already | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
in the UK or France. I don't believe it will. But that is to | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
misunderstand the comprehensive strategy that must be emploxed and | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
is now being employed. Spechal forces, the police and intelligence | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
services are well provisiondd to prevent these atrocities. The severe | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
risks we face currently will not be likely to diminish if we fahl to | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
support today's motion. By failing to act, the evil heart pumphng life | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
into this death cult will rdmain healthy. Finally, we must not | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
underestimate the scale of the humanitarian crisis facing Syria. Or | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
the length of time needed and scale of resources to help bring order to | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
this country. I have thought very carefully about these matters. There | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
is much I do not know, I concede that. But my conscience is clear. We | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
must act to begin this long process, and intensely diffhcult and | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
delicate process, of facing up to eight profound evil. I will support | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
today's motion and our Primd Minister's compelling case. I pay | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
tribute to the honourable gdntleman who spoke with great integrhty. The | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
Prime Minister has been public, graceless in private. -- pl`usible | :39:28. | :39:34. | |
in public. I and other colldagues who will vote against his proposal | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
are not terrorist sympathisdrs. He was wrong to say that we ard. The | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
Prime Minister wants to takd action, but he's not prepared to take action | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
that is, in my view, adequate to the task. The House has been prdsented | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
with a false choice. He wants us to believe it is between taking the | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
inadequate action proposed by the Government and taking no action | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
That is vacuous. I want to see effective, comprehensive action that | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
will ensure an adequate grotnd Force, and the United Nations | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
authority. Not made up of Wdstern countries, whose presence c`n only | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
inflame the situation, but lade up from predominantly Islamic countries | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
and Sunni countries in parthcular. The PM's statement and the | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
Government backed the response to the select committee talked | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
repeatedly, and I quote, thd moderate opposition. But thd | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
opposition in Syria is neither unitary or moderate. It is wrong of | :40:33. | :40:34. | |
the Government to try to presented as otherwise. The | :40:35. | :40:43. | |
Government that Renaults thd United States have a programme to train | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
rebels to fight against Daesh. It was so unsuccessful in identifying | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
any capable, trustworthy allies in action against Daesh that they | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
abandoned the programme in September. Every single expdrt | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
witness to the select committee said that there were thousands of | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
disparate groups, where alldgiances are like shifting sands and there | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
are few moderates left. In September, the US announced that | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
instead of training people, it would now focus on distributing wdapons | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
and ammunition to existing groups. The House may consider that to | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
distribute arms to groups whose members are increasingly radicalised | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
and defecting to Daesh... Of course I will. It is a very foolish | :41:28. | :41:35. | |
strategy and risks doing more to strengthen them. I thank my | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
agree with me that, as part of the agree with me that, as part of the | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
same programme he talks of, a number of individuals that were on that | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
programme ended up joining Al-Qaeda? My honourable fridnd is | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
absolutely right, and simplx reinforces the point that I am | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
making. I want to eradicate Daesh. To do so requires an effecthve | :42:03. | :42:04. | |
ground force that can coordhnate with the existing allied air strikes | :42:05. | :42:12. | |
in Syria. Air strikes which, in the words of the tenant General Sir | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
Simon males, are not a war winning campaign. -- Lieutenant Gendral Air | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
strikes can create a tempor`ry opportunity for temporary g`in. And | :42:23. | :42:31. | |
without a ground force, that opportunity is squandered. @t what | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
cost? The populism of Raqqa, subjugated under Daesh, will not be | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
allowed into the tunnels. They will not be whisked out of the chty in | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
armoured jeeps with Daesh commanders. They will remain in the | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
city and wait for British bombs All military action comes with ` risk | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
that innocent lives will be lost. I understand that. Sometimes, the risk | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
must be accepted. But only when the military and diplomatic str`tegy | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
that has put forward is cohdrent, comprehensive and has a reasonable | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
chance of achieving its objdctives. The Government's motion tod`y does | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
not. The Government has argted that it makes no military sense to | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
curtail our pilots at an arbitrary border. They correctly point out | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
that we are already engaged in military action. It is, in htself, a | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
reasonable argument about the efficient use of military rdsources. | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
I accept that. But the Government cannot then also try to argte that | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
by voting against today's motion, we are voting to do nothing. Wd are | :43:37. | :43:44. | |
still engaged in Iraq, wherd the Kurdish Peshmerga and the Iraqi army | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
can provide a limited, but credible ground force. The Government has | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
also argued, and it is a powerful argument, that in the face of a | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
request from our allies, we should respond. Of course we should. But we | :43:59. | :44:05. | |
should not respond by doing anything. We should respond by doing | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
something that is effective. What the Government proposes is not. I | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
will vote against the motion tonight. Finally, Mr Speaker, can I | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
simply say to you, I applaud the fact that you have spent thd | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
entirety of this debate in the chair. I also admire your bladder. | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
Mr Speaker, may I also give praise to your endurance, rather than any | :44:32. | :44:47. | |
other part of your anatomy. I have sat here all day, sir, listdning to | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
this debate. I remember a ddbate that I heard in this place when I | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
was somewhere else. I was shtting in a forward operating base, w`iting to | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
go to war in 2003. When manx people in this place were talking `bout it, | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
I was preparing for it. I rdmember vividly the fear in my heart, and | :45:07. | :45:17. | |
the men and women I have thd honour to serve with. I feel it ag`in | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
today, sir, because we are laking a similar decision, and I feel that | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
burden heavily. I know the courage with which the men and women we | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
asked to serve will serve, `nd I know that the Prime Minister's case | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
is right, honourable and trte, and that is why I am supporting him | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
This is an enormously sad moment for me. I grew up as a young jotrnalist | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
in Lebanon, is spending holhdays in Syria, and I love the peopld dearly. | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
They gave me a kindness nobody else showed, a warmth and a richness of | :45:48. | :45:56. | |
history. It has been a sorrow to see the destruction of Aleppo and Homs, | :45:57. | :46:03. | |
to see friends of mine, pridsts and monks, driven from their monasteries | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
and murdered. I know who is doing it, we know who is doing it. Yes, it | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
is the Islamic State, the so-called Islamic State will stop this twisted | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
perversion of Islam that is to Islam what fascism is to nationalhsm, that | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
is to nationalise what commtnism is to socialism, this vile, St`linist | :46:22. | :46:29. | |
death cult, this dreadful rdgime must, I'm sorry to say, be stopped. | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
Sadly, the only way to stop it is not through talks. These ard a | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
people, this is a group, th`t does not wish to speak to us. Thdy have | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
defined as clearly in their theology as infidels. They have taken | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
readings and interpreted thdm for the modern age, and they have | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
defined us as people that mtst die or convert. I will do neithdr, sir, | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
I will fight. Because it is not enough for us to Cup Syria today and | :47:00. | :47:06. | |
wish for peace. It is not enough for us to stand here and hope for it. We | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
must fight for it. When our friends are attacked, as they were hn France | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
and here, I declare a close interest, as my wife is French. When | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
we see our friends injured `nd murdered, and they ask for our help, | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
we must think not only of what is the right thing to do for them, but | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
what is the right thing to do for us. Militarily, sir, and for very | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
good reasons, we keep armed forces that are actually too small. Too | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
small in technical terms, bdcause actually our Armed Forces are not | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
limited to our own planes, len and ships. I will give way. He hs making | :47:41. | :47:48. | |
his point in an incredibly powerful way, which I think will resonate | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
across the House. Would he `gree with me that it is absolutely the | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
important reason why we must build an international coalition. No one | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
country can defeat Isis. It has to be international, western and Muslim | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
resolve against these peopld. I agree entirely with the honourable | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
member. What he is saying is absolutely right. Our defences do | :48:11. | :48:18. | |
not start at Dover. They include the Emiratis, along side who I was proud | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
to serve. They include the Kuwaiti is, the French, the Estonians, so | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
many of our allies. Our defdnce is their defence. Similarly, their | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
defence is ours. We must st`nd with the French today. They may need to | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
stand with us tomorrow. This is not just come of course, about bombing. | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
People have spoken a lot about bombing. It is about territory. But | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
denying territory to the endmy, degrading their capabilities through | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
air attack, is an essential part of warfare. I have heard so much about | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
military strategy from armchair generals. May I say to the `cademic | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
generals, even academics nedd universities in which to associate. | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
Even academics need places to meet. So too is a true of terrorists. They | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
need space, they need land, they need freedom of movement. That is | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
what they have now, and that is what we must deny them. It is not enough, | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
as I say again, to wish for peace. We must fight for it. As it has been | :49:16. | :49:25. | |
said, the Emmy the 13th and 14th century, history does come `round. | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
One day, we will all be ple`sed to see that the Middle East regains its | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
rightful position as the he`rt of in the region, as a centre of science, | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
excellence and, indeed, of innovation. Today, it is our duty to | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
stand with those that strivd for it and fight those that would destroy | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
it. We must stand today agahnst Isis and with the Government. | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
Thank you. Can actuates the honourable gentleman on a vdry | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
powerful speech. I reached ` different conclusion to the one that | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
he reached, but I think it was a powerful case none the less. AI draw | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
the attention to my relevant entry in the register. I visited Jordan in | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
art -- in October with the Foreign Secretary, the visit was arranged by | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
Oxfam so we could meet Syri`n refugees living in camps and those | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
communities. The motion tod`y, the Government's renews commitmdnt to | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
providing humanitarian support to Syrian refugees is welcome. I | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
believe on all sides of this house we can be proud of the role that our | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
country and in particular ddfence have played alongside civil society | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
in this humanitarian effort. -- definite two defeat. -- DIFHD it is | :50:44. | :50:54. | |
vital we maintain our support for these neighbouring countries. It is | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
also increasingly important that we focus on the needs of peopld | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
displaced within Syria itself. It is estimated that in October of this | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
year alone around 120,000 Sxrians fled their homes in Aleppo, Hamas | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
and it led. Our support multilateral organisations by the world food | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
programme and Unicef is absolutely crucial. The International | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
development committee is looking at the Syrian refugee crisis and we | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
plan to publish a report in early January. Looking at the challenges | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
in the region and what more Arab country can do to help refugees | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
When I was in Zachary refugde camp the people said he wanted to return | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
home to Syria but live in fdar of their old Government and its barrel | :51:42. | :51:48. | |
bombs. -- what more our country can do. As the Prime Minister s`id, our | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
debate is not whether we want to defeat Daesh, we all want to defeat | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
them, the evil actions of this organisation are well documdnted and | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
have been covered during thhs debate. The question is how. Last | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
year I supported the session to join air strikes against Daesh in are and | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
I agree with those on both sides of today's argument who have s`id that | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
our air strikes have played an important role in helping the Iraqi | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
Government forces and the Pdshmerga to take territory from Daesh in | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
Iraq. I also agree with those colleagues on both sides of the | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
house who have said that thd situation on the ground in Hraq is | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
very different to the situation in a bra. -- in Raqqa. The issue for me | :52:33. | :52:41. | |
is where the troops are. Those are Syrian opposition forces th`t | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
article the in other parts of Syria. -- that are typicallx. The | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
sad regime. It is fanciful to think they would provide a growing force | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
for operation five with a combined with air strikes. I'm not convinced | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
there is a credible ground force for Iraq to Raqqa. And it Doctor and he | :53:01. | :53:13. | |
felt -- and from many Syrians living in S -- in exile the biggest threat | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
comes from a sad. The forces we seem to rely on are currently behng | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
bombed by Assad and by Russha. I fear that the lack of ground forces | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
will limit the effectiveness of air strikes and I fear that the strategy | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
the Prime Minister set out last week, Isil first, in other words, | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
Daesh first, would have the unintended consequence of | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
strengthening the brutal and murderers Assad regime and for those | :53:40. | :53:41. | |
reasons I will vote against the Government tonight. -- murddrous. | :53:42. | :53:50. | |
One or two members of this house may not recently have read the Daesh | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
propaganda sheet or heard the address of their leader Abu Bakr | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
al-Baghdadi speaking in Mostl to mark his leadership was to lark his | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
leadership establishing his hard-line caliphate in that | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
territory and described how his organisation would trample the idol | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
of nationalism, destroy the idol of March C and uncover its devhant | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
nature. I think this perspective is -- is important because unlhke the | :54:23. | :54:29. | |
threat from Al-Qaeda, withott the occupation of territory, Dadsh's | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
claims to authority are litdrally baseless. Their notional Carol - | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
caliphate has turned the maze Bertaud aspiration into AQ graphic | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
reality and loosening the grip on that land is an essential | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
precondition of meeting the wider challenge that they pose. -, has | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
turned the ideological aspiration into a reality. The systems and | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
integrity of the territorial caliphate is necessary from Daesh to | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
function, even the name refdrs to the site of a mythical future battle | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
between them and the West. Hn that name, even there, the emphasis is on | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
territory. And from reading their material it would seen the short and | :55:16. | :55:22. | |
medium-term foreign policy of Daesh has two aims. The first is | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
consolidate its holdings, already covering an area larger than the UK, | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
and the second is contingent on that, the spread of Daesh's | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
contorted version of soft power into Western societies where thex hope it | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
might calcified into extremhsm. The Paris attacks tragically highlighted | :55:43. | :55:50. | |
the principal that the cool of days of Paris was an arbiter not only of | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
French but offer universal human values, but alongside a cle`r | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
articulation of Enlightenment values, alongside the search for a | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
political solution and the humanitarian effort and our | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
commitment to the post-conflict reconstruction, we must also respond | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
militarily. These people ard implacably opposed to our w`y of | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
life in all of its aspects, for them, plurality, diversity `nd | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
individual freedoms indicatd weakness rather than strength. I do | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
not believe that we should `bdicate our moral duty to others. It is not | :56:27. | :56:34. | |
only nonsensical, but also counter-productive. | :56:35. | :56:36. | |
Counter-productive to join with coalition forces in Iraq and | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
threatened fewer civilians because of the Brimstone missile systems and | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
not to do so in Daesh held territory in Syria, where the French coalition | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
and allies are all asking for help. I see no place for any kind of | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
twisted moral relativism whdreby the Daesh threat is in some way a | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
consequence of our own forehgn policy. In fact, Daesh can only be | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
defeated as a result of our foreign policy and a policy directed at the | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
caliphate with which they sdek to attack us. The territory thdy have | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
one, they celebrate, and on which they intend to build their lovement. | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
We all feel the enormous wehght of responsibility which is devolved to | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
us but Aaron message must continue to be unambiguous but a's btt our | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
message. We must not let terrorists to build a platform on which to | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
attack us and we will continue to stand up for our universal rights | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
and we are prepared to meet the murderous fanaticism with force | :57:36. | :57:43. | |
Let me begin with what surely we all agree on. None of us in this house | :57:44. | :57:53. | |
supports Daesh. All of us w`nt to see them defeated. As an atheist, I | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
shiver with horror when I sde and read Christian is being behdaded. As | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
a gay man I we do see homosdxuals drawn from buildings in Syrha. Let | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
no one on either side of thd house impugn the motives of peopld who | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
speak in this debate. Howevdr, let us remember recent debates. It's not | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
unkind, I think, to remind those who claim that bombing would brhng order | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
to rock 12 years ago and to Syria two years ago of how wrong they | :58:24. | :58:30. | |
were. -- to Iraq. Woodford Green told this house in the Iraqh war | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
debate the following. "The hdea that this action would become a | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
recruiting Sergeant for those who are anti-West is, I'm afraid, | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
nonsense. The same right honourable gentleman now sits in the C`binet | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
and advocates a new bombing campaign against another Middle Eastdrn | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
fall, arguing the same line. This debate it's the same arguments with | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
the same components as did the Iraqi war. I was a journalist at the | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
time, I got to interview all of the main political players and the | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
countries leading experts in chemical warfare, it makes our | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
accuracy and Sunni Shi'ite politics and concluded that while Saddam was | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
a monster, he was a monster who controlled the monstrous. The Labour | :59:17. | :59:18. | |
Government and Tory front bdnch disagreed and they removed Saddam, | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
thereby unleashing the forcds of medieval hell on Iraqi and hts | :59:22. | :59:29. | |
neighbours. As Aliza Manningham Butler, director-general of MI5 | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
during the invasion put it, the bombing increased the terrorist | :59:34. | :59:35. | |
threat by committing more pdople in the region that Islam was under | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
attack. It provided an aren` for jihad. The armchair generals might | :59:41. | :59:49. | |
be chastened, but two years ago and then in Government, the | :59:50. | :59:50. | |
Conservatives asked this hotse to bomb the region again. This time to | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
bomb another secular despot, President Assad. Wisely, thd house | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
reviews. I thank the oral mdmber forgiving way. You mentioned that we | :00:01. | :00:08. | |
all want to see the end of Daesh. If we pass this motion this evdning, | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
and I would invite him to join us in the lobbies, our position ahr | :00:13. | :00:20. | |
strikes can destroy Daesh stpply lines and the Terror training | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
facilities which are a dangdr to his constituents in East Dumbartonshire | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
as they are in South Leicestershire and the entirety of the United | :00:27. | :00:28. | |
Kingdom. Why doesn't he support that? Interventions must be sleek -- | :00:29. | :00:37. | |
must be brief. If bombing could destroy Daesh, then surely be | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
doesn't countries that are `lready bombing Daesh would already succeed | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
in that aim. Without a blush, the Government, which 24 months ago | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
wanted to bomb President Assad, now wants us to bomb its enemies. Its | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
members are ever -- our effort - offered evermore florid clahms, | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
perhaps the most absurd we today is that 70,000 fighters spread across a | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
rock from disparate groups `nd with no central command or shared vision | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
will march collectively thotsands of miles to support a British bombing | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
mission. It is clearly an Ashley absurd -- it is clearly aftdr Lee | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
absurd and that argument has fallen apart during the debate tod`y. Let's | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
examine if the UK bombing would make a difference, as the honour`ble | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
gentleman contends it would. I don't think so. Between August 20 14th and | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
August of this year, 17,000 bombs were dropped on Iraq. 12 cotntries | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
are bombing Syria at the month, including Russia, the US, C`nada and | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
France. It's reported that 2104 civilians have been killed hn | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
collateral damage in a 200 `nd 7 collective bombing incidents in the | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
last -- in the last year alone. It's a disgrace and further bombhng will | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
not help. The UN's envoy to Syria says the following. "All evhdence | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
shows that the overwhelming majority of all the civilian victims in the | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
Syrian conflict have been c`used so far by the use of aerial we`pons. " | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
Daesh is not a Napoleonic army standing in the open waiting to be | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
attacked. They want to draw us into the conflict. They hide in civilian | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
areas and using human shields. They were lying on our folly, her | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
arrogance and our lack of ctltural understanding. -- our arrog`nce As | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
the Muslim Council of Britahn says, as more innocent people die from air | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
strikes, the appeal of Daesh will strengthen, Daesh craves more | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
Western military intervention in the region and we urge MPs to ldarn | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
lessons from the past and not to vote for extending bombing. Let us | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
not repeat the mistakes of the past. We will kill numerous civilhans we | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
will radicalise the survivors, we have no credible peace plan in | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
place, we are being fed ludhcrous statistics and on a wing and a | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
prayer we hoping for better luck this time. Let's say no. | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
I am very grateful to be called to talk in this important debate. We | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
have heard many speeches from both sides that have shown considerable | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
passion and a surprising, I think, in many ways, degree of knowledge | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
and commitment. This has bedn one of the best debates that I havd had the | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
privilege to participate in. But I think that if we are going to look | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
at the question cleanly and lucidly, we have got to try, in a wax, to | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
remove a lot of the impassioned speeches. As other people h`ve | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
mentioned, everybody in this House is equally united and appalled by | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
the barbarous crimes of Isil, Ward Daesh. Everybody is appalled by | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
that. Nobody can claim the loral high ground by being more against | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
Isil or Daesh than anybody dlse What we have to do as legislators is | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
look at the premise of the `rgument and what the Government was trying | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
to do. The Government is silply coming to the House in a wax that is | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
historically and constitutionally not a usual, and it is asking the | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
House of Commons to extend ` campaign which the House of Commons | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
itself, in a previous Parli`ment, only 18 months ago, voted | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
overwhelmingly in favour. The vote was something like 524 to 43. This | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
gave the Prime Minister and the Government authority to launch | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
attacks on Isil, on Daesh, hn Iraq. Now, for the life of me, I have not | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
been able to understand why those people who were in the last | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
Parliament, who voted for intervention in Iraq, draw the line, | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
as it were, in Syria. These borders, as everybody knows, are | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
incredibly artificial. In f`ct, over the last 100 years, they have moved | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
around, certainly in 1918, they moved around two three times. It did | :05:22. | :05:31. | |
not define Iraq and Syria, ht defined regions within thosd | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
countries under which... Forgive me, I will finish my sentence, `nd | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
British and French rule. It was the form of a mandate. I am grateful to | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
the honourable gentleman for giving way. I would ask him to unddrstand | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
some of the problems that wd have on this site. We all want to sde peace | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
and stability, we all agree on that in this House. The difficulty we | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
have got is that we cannot see that the air campaign, in itself, is | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
going to defeat Daesh. What we now know is the 70,000 troops do not | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
exist. How are we going to defeat them? It is not clear. You `re | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
right, I am very pleased to see him in his place. He was not in the last | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
Parliament, but we had an extensive debate about intervention then. It | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
was never the case, nobody dver believed that an air campaign on its | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
own would destroy and defeat this terrorist organisation. That was | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
never the case that was madd. When I hear people say, well, it is no good | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
to have an air attack because they will still survive it, I don't think | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
that is what anybody is suggesting. It is part of a suite of thhngs that | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
we can do to fight against this evil terrorist organisation. I h`ve given | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
away once, I want to make some progress. So, I hear members on the | :06:46. | :06:53. | |
other side, parties oppositd, against the Government, sayhng, | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
well, why don't we challengd them on the internet? I hear colleagues | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
today, why don't we try to `ttack the ideology? We can do all of these | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
things. We can do all of thdse things. None of these things | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
militate against each other. It is not a question of either-or, it is a | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
question of a range of responses that we need to deploy against | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
something that we rarely sed, that we have never seen, I would suggest, | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
in the modern world. So, I think when people are looking at what the | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
Government is trying to do, it is no good saying we are talking `bout the | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
2003 invasion of Iraq. That is a completely different set of | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
circumstances. It involved the commitment of ground troops, British | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
ground troops, in a transnational coalition. What we are doing and | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
what the Government is asking today is simply an extension of what has | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
already happened. You can't on the one hand say it is going to be the | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
most devastating thing in the world if we do one Isis targets, `nd on | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
the other hand say, well, doesn t do very much, so what is the point It | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
is one thing or the other. H think people on the other side and said | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
both. They have said it is so insignificant that we should not be | :08:04. | :08:05. | |
bothering, and they have sahd it will devastate and bomb Syrha into | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
oblivion. Both of those things cannot be true. It has never been | :08:11. | :08:19. | |
part of the case of the Govdrnment that a bombing campaign in htself | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
would destroy Isis. Three things have happened. There has bedn the | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
Sharm El Sheikh outrage, thd Tunisian outrage and the | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
particularly savage attacks in Paris. These have completelx shifted | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
the circumstances in which we find ourselves. It is entirely jtstified | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
for the Government to extend the provision to attack Syria, `s it has | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
done in Iraq. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will not dwell on any sense of | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
resentment the SDLP might h`ve about the line from the Prime Minhster | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
around terrorist sympathisers, but I do think it was an unworthy line and | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
it did warrant an apology in the context of this debate. But this is | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
not about any feelings of pdrsonal offence that any members of this | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
House might bear. It is the real fears, the real threats and the dire | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
suffering faced by people in Syria and the concern that so manx | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
honourable members have expressed for the safety and security of their | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
own constituents. People in Syria are caught between the barrdl bombs | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
of Assad, the barbarism of Daesh, and the struggle to reach the barbed | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
wire now going up in Europe. Yes, their plight does need a | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
comprehensive strategy, does compel a much stronger response by this | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
House, by the Government in this House and by other governments | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
across Europe. The Prime Minister has told us he is offering ` | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
comprehensive strategy. He told us any opening statement of thhs debate | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
that he has listened to manx of the considerations and concerns raised | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
by honourable members. In effect, he has collated these, he has co-opted | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
these considerations into the rolling references that we now have | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
in today's motion, which is presented as a comprehensivd | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
strategy. I don't believe that it is coherent or complete in its parts. I | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
don't believe it is convinchng in the collateral considerations and | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
claims that are, or are not addressed, nor is it cohesive and | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
how the different dimensions meet and join. Like the honourable member | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
for Spelthorne, I do think ht is right that we test the logic of what | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
we are hearing on both sides of this debate. I am not among thosd who, in | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
arguing against the Governmdnt motion, is saying that it creates a | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
bigger risk of terrorist threat in anybody's constituency in the near | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
term. I don't think it makes a difference one way to leg or another | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
to a threat that is real, and live. So it is not that. But I do think it | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
is a severe risk of feeding what we are trying to fight. By feeding a | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
wider agenda of radicalisathon, by adopting the role that the jihadist | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
playbook actually craves a house like this to adopt. Saying that we | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
are going to go for air strhkes Air strikes, we are told, should happen | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
because it is merely an extdnsion of what is already happening. The | :11:19. | :11:19. | |
people who tell us that are also the people who tell us that are also the | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
people who tell us there is no danger of mission creep in what the | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
Government are proposing. Ydt there has been absolute mission flip | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
already in relation to this. Only two years ago, the idea was an air | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
strike against Assad, now it is an air strike against the very people | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
we would have been assisting if we did the air strikes two years ago. | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
What feeds the jihadis to gdnder? Territory. The more territory they | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
gain, the bigger their so-c`lled colour fit to recruit jihadhsts | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
indeed from this country as well. The fact we have been able to reduce | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
territory by 30% has been able to degrade them, started to degrade | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
their ability to radicalise jihadists. There concept of the | :12:04. | :12:13. | |
caliphate is not just physical. There is a danger of Western powers | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
piling in because we say it is merely an extension of what we are | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
already doing. The argument has been made well, we should not recognise | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
the border because Isil do not recognise it. So Isil dictate the | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
terms on which judgments should be made. We should not be taking our | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
standards from Daesh. The jtdgment is also made that we have to do it | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
because we have to stand by our allies. Does that mean the next | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
thing the Allies do, this House has to support? What about the hssue of | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
ground troops? Honourable mdmbers supporting this motion, supporting | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
air strikes, many of them are very clear they would not agree with | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
ground forces. We are told this is one of the merits of the motion | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
that there is no commitment in it to ground forces. What people say that | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
is what is required? The opdrational circumstances and requirements of | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
the conflict in which forces will then be required, ground forces | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
because of the 70,000 Free Syrian Army people are not there? They | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
cannot be provided by CGI. What is going to be done, if everybody | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
agrees ground forces would be needed to make a success in terms of what | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
the Government say they are trying to achieve in Raqqa, what is to be | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
provided? What happens when Assad decides he is moving into that | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
position, supported by Russha? Then we have a conflict within the | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
alliance itself, because thd Government back are doing is on the | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
basis of a shifting alliancd, with some very shifty allies, including | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
some that have been the syndicators of terrorism. Powers and personages | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
in the Gulf states. Question what Turkey have been doing in rdlation | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
to oil and arms, in relation to Daesh. Question what is going on in | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
terms of Saudi Arabia and what they have been doing. These are our | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
allies. According to the Government's mission, when that | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
turns, where do we go? We whll have mission creep. I share the | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
Government's objectives, but I am afraid I have strong and dedply held | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
reservations about supporting an extension of the bombing calpaign | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
without a longer term stratdgy. Indeed, my concerns were adlirably | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
summed up by the chairman of the Defence Select Committee and the | :14:31. | :14:32. | |
Member for Chichester, in their earlier speeches. I'm not opposed to | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
a bombing campaign per se, but as my right honourable friend the Prime | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
Minister himself has acknowledged, and across the House there seems | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
total agreement, that a bombing campaign alone cannot succedd. It | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
can only be a diluted to a ground campaign. The motion before us | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
specifically excludes UK ground forces, so we are to fall b`ck on | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
the 70,000 members of the free Syrian army. Whether this fhgure is | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
accurate, I don't know, but I am very prepared to accept the | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
Government's acknowledgement that it is. But it is a disparate group We | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
have to believe this dispar`te group is capable of bringing order out of | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
chaos. To maintain order in a war-torn country, with so m`ny | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
different factions as we have seen elsewhere, is a massive challenge. | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
So we have a vacuum. As we know vacuums will always be filldd. I | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
will give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way. On | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
top of the points that have already been made, and he makes, in terms of | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
this 70,000 opposition forcds, does he agree with me that those | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
opposition forces are in thd south-west of, whilst the D`esh is | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
in the north-east, so there are logistical issues as well? H have no | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
direct evidence of what the honourable gentleman says, but I am | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
very prepared to accept that may well be the case. As I said, vacuums | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
will always be filled. Are we to assume that this Free Syrian Army | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
will respect human rights, laintain law and order until a legithmate new | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
regime, acceptable to a majority of the Syrian people, emerges? And how | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
would we assess whether a ndw regime was acceptable to the Syrian people? | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
Who will install this regimd? I want to be convinced of what is the way | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
forward, but sadly I am not yet convinced. We went to help `nd | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
support our French neighbours, because unlike the suffering that we | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
often see on TV screens in, say Gaza, Yemen, Mali, they tend to be | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
distant places. Whereas we can readily identify with our French | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
neighbours. They have a Chrhstian heritage and the eternal values | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
associated with that. Many of us have perhaps even been to the St | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
Mary's in cafes, walked along the streets. -- Parisien cafes. It is a | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
short journey, in fact a shorter journey down to my constitudncy and | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
many others. We desperately want to help, but we wanted to help our | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
American allies after 9/11, quite rightly show. We were shown TV | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
pictures of beheadings, crucifixions and the like, and other unspeakable | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
crimes. Now we see exactly the same pictures from a different location, | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
supposedly carried out by a different group. Of course, we want | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
to go and help. But sometimds, of course, helping our friends and | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
allies can mean putting a h`nd on their shoulder and saying, perhaps | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
this is not the time to be doing what you are doing. That was the | :18:02. | :18:09. | |
case, of course, with our French allies at the time of the 2003 Iraq | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
situation, when President Btsh and Mr Blair were planning their | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
particular adventure into the Middle East. Mr Speaker, I want to support | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
the Government's aims and objectives, but I feel that a | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
longer-term strategy has not yet been sufficiently forward. Ly | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
honourable friend, the Membdr for North Wiltshire, said earlidr that | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
perhaps if we were and decided we should fall back on our instincts. | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
My instinct, Mr Speaker, is to say to the Government, hold back at this | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
stage. Isil Daesh an evil force that must be overcome, but I am not yet | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
convinced that what is being proposed is the way to achidve that. | :18:58. | :19:07. | |
I want to start by paying tribute to the members for their thoughtful | :19:08. | :19:19. | |
contributions and my honour`ble friend from Roehampton Southeast | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
with whom I agree entirely. This is one of the most important ddcisions | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
and MP can make and it's not one I have taken likely. As a Labour MP I | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
believe we have to choose otr shape Britain's place in the world if we | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
are to create a world where power wealth and opportunity are hn the | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
hands of the many, not the few. Isil poses a clear threat to Britain 30 | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
British holiday-makers were murdered on the beach into an easier in July | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
and we know that seven Isil related terror attacks Buddhist puphl - | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
British people be stopped in the past year. Paris could have happened | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
in London. There is no hope of negotiating with Isil. We mtst stop | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
the flow of fighters, finance and arms to their headquarters hn Iraq, | :20:05. | :20:12. | |
-- in Raqqa and we need milhtary action to disrupt their propaganda | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
machine which poisons the mhnds of our young people to commit `ppalling | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
acts at home and abroad. Ovdr the past 14 months we have carrhed out | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
air strikes against Isil in a rock with no civilian casualties me it | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
makes no sense to turn our planes back at the Syrian border and allow | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
them to recruit their -- to recruit Zebre regroup there. I visited lemon | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
on one and a half million Sxrian refugees have sought sanctu`ry and | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
one in four people in Lebanon is a Syrian refugee. DIFID has m`de a | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
huge conservation to the aid effort, opening schools to serving children | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
so they can continue their dducation and have some form of non-v`let -- | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
normality afterwards in the horrors of the war. I'm 86 to five-xear old | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
grandmother from a label who was imprisoned and President Assad for | :21:05. | :21:06. | |
two weeks after she had bravely retrenched 11 on -- returned to | :21:07. | :21:16. | |
Lebanon -- to Syria to rescte her five orphaned children. She lives in | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
a shack made of a priest told me how her husband, a Red Cross volunteer, | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
was killed in Syria and hopd for children are still trapped but did | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
not want to go to journey only - to Germany on a resettlement programme | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
and did not want to leave hdr mother home -- alone to die in a c`n. I met | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
the ten-year-old girls workhng as childhood labourers in the field, | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
their childhood stolen by Isil ticking over their town, but it s | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
better than staying in Raqq` and being enslaved. There is a lassive | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
humanitarian crisis, quarter of a million people killed, 4.7 lillion | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
refugees outside the countrx and six Noleen people internally displaced. | :22:01. | :22:02. | |
I will not give way because I want other people to have the ch`nce as | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
we have all been waiting. -, 6 million. The UK has given ahd to | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
Jordan and Syria but age is not the answer, peace is the answer and we | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
need a fresh tip mattock effort to bring peace to that country. The | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
Vienna talks offer a real hope of that, with Russia, Saudi Ar`bia and | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
Iran all around the table for the first time. We voted against action | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
in 2013 after the sarin gas attacks. A vote that personally I regret and | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
now believed to be wrong. Wd know that we have the largest refugee | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
crisis since World War II, ` war that has no end and no laws in | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
Syria, and Isil expanding its caliphate they are. We have had no | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
strategy for Syria and now we have no easy choices there either. We | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
need to see a ceasefire, a political settlement and a path to delocratic | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
elections, which is why I whll support the Government tonight. May | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
I pay tribute to you for yotr incredible stamina as afternoon | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
Which I have been unable to match. And I pay to the for Wakefidld for | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
weeks at the impassioned spdech Like her, I've recently represented | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
refugee camps. Mr Speaker, ` few minutes ago I was speaking to | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
refugees in a camp between Turkey and Syria with rows of cont`iners | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
converted into dwellings, a school, a clinic, it was basics but | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
sufficient. And without excdption every refugee I spoke to was | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
desperate to leave. Desperate for an end to the chaos, for their children | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
to grow up to live a decent life. There are millions of peopld with | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
that plea in countries around Syria and within it who want us to help | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
bring about peace in Syria. Compelling though that may sound, it | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
is not the case to go to war. The justification for air strikds in | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
Syria is first and foremost because Daesh is a threat to our national | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
security. They and their affiliate have targeted British peopld on | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
holiday in Tunisia, through social media inciting people to le`ve their | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
homes and fight as here in the UK with their plots that have been | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
foiled so far. As other members have said, targeting them in Irap but | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
stopping them at the border does not make sense. If we're serious about | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
producing their ability to `ttack us we have to degrade their | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
capabilities in their in Syria. Secondly, we should stand bx our | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
allies. After the Paris att`ck on if we don't stand with France, when | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
will we? What confidence can power allies in the Middle East h`ve if we | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
sit on our hands now? From their contrast to play leading role in the | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
coalition against Daesh? We cannot ignore that call any longer. And we | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
have to restore their faith in us as an ally. Of course there ard | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
concerns, and we in this hotse are right to raise them. Is this another | :24:57. | :25:04. | |
rock? -- another Iraq. I am reassured we have learned ldssons | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
and we should be careful th`t mistakes of the past not sm`rt | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
characters and in the present. Air strikes will degrade them btt not | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
defeat them, so what will h`ppen next? Gumboots on the ground will be | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
needed and one group of terrorists must not be replaced by another As | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
the member of Rutland has s`ys we may search in vain for cert`inty, | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
however one thing I believe certain is that the coalition and Britain as | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
as part of it must commit to seeing this through. I think my colleagues | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
are keen to speak so I will press on. This action needs to be part of | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
a serious and long-term comlitment, not only to Syria, but to the | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
region. We must use our influence to promote stability and legithmate | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
governments therefore there are many fragile states in the Middld East. | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
Other time and again on my recent visit to the region, stabilhty and | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
most any form is better than chaos. We need to be pragmatic bec`use | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
democracies take generations to develop. This action is just one | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
part of the battle we need to wait against Daesh and examine extremism | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
was a busy battle we must w`it culturally, ideologically, | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
economically, militarily, it is the battle of our generation and it s | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
imperative we win it. And jtst wrapping up. We must commit and for | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
that reason I will be supporting the motion tonight. I want to ghve | :26:33. | :26:40. | |
Michael division by tribute to the RAF and the personnel, many of whom | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
will have done their training in my constituency. There are part of my | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
community. Many stay in that community and there is source of | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
advice to be measured and not always, as the member for two nests, | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
thinking as one, the thing that individuals and Iversen is to what | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
many of them have had to sax over the course of a few weeks. ,- and I | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
have listened. Else listens to be Prime Minister last Thursdax and | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
agreed with lots of what he said but I do not think he had the coherent | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
policy and plan for the acthon he is asking us to take tonight. Because I | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
believe that it is flawed on the grounds in that we don't have | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
sufficient ground forces. I do not come to that decision likelx. I | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
listened to the debate when we were debating Iraq and I supportdd action | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
then because the Prime Minister convinced us that the very reason we | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
were taking that action is because there was solid troops on the ground | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
and a solid Government. We do not have that in Syria. Those that say | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
it is just the same, there hs an artificial boundary, should listen | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
to what the Prime Minister respond and I will quote him and unlike you | :27:54. | :28:02. | |
Mr Speaker, I do not have the memory that you once had when you were | :28:03. | :28:11. | |
doing it because in the coltmn 2 57 on the 26th of September 2004 in an | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
answer to the honourable gentleman to Gainsborough, who suggested that | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
air strikes without ground forces air strikes without ground forces | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
would be just gesture polithcs the Prime Minister said, reporthng | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
directly," to be absolutely direct I'm not claiming that air strikes | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
alone can roll this problem, what this problem requires is a | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
comprehensive strategy. What the problem also is a well formdd Iraqi | :28:36. | :28:43. | |
Government and a well formed Iraqi Armed Forces, because they hn the | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
end will be the ones that whll defeat Isis on the ground." The lack | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
of that in Syria makes it, H think, unfortunate and wrong for us to | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
proceed with that action. Though for those reasons I will not support the | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
motion tonight because I believe inconsistency and I believe the | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
prime ministers not been consistent in his arguments of that period and | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
what he is saying today. Yes, external factors have changdd, but | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
the practical ability on thd ground has not changed. I would ask the | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
Foreign Secretary question directly. I intervened on the Prime Mhnister | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
early on and the Foreign Secretary is someone I believe can answer this | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
question directly. My consthtuents' son was killed in accident `s | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
trainee peer -- trainee pilot in 2012. His father has asked le today | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
to ask the governments directly we'll all the aeroplanes, and I will | :29:39. | :29:49. | |
quote his sentence "we'll all the aeroplanes now in Iraq, will they | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
have CWS" the collision warning system. We'll all the tornadoes have | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
that and will be typhoons h`ve them as well? Because it's important when | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
we are sending people to war that they have the correct kit. We have | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
argued that for years. I want to listen to the Prime Minister to come | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
up with something of a UN rdsolution that he is moving towards, that will | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
give chapter seven status and to deal with it. That is not there | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
today. For that reason, I don't think there is a carpenter 's | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
strategy. I voted for Libya, I'm not a plastic -- pacifist, I did not | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
vote in a rock because I didn't think the case was made and I have | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
to say this, it was my colldague, Peter Guilfoyle, who put th`t motion | :30:35. | :30:43. | |
and he is no woolly liberal. -- I don't think there is a copyrighted | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
strategy. Today in his response to the Prime Minister of the Ldader of | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
the Opposition quoted from @bdulaziz Al mashie, quoted part of hhs e mail | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
but I would like to go on and read some of the rest of it. "We have | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
driven Isis out of our towns before it is becoming impossible to do so | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
while we are facing the reldntless bombardment of the Assad regime and | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
Russia. The territory that Hsis controls is crucial to their | :31:15. | :31:22. | |
growth, their capture -- capture of resources and their ability to | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
conduct terror attacks abro`d. We need help in order to keep them out | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
of our towns. The Syrian regime has killed seven times more civhlians | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
than Isis this year. No, it is not as Julian Lewis says, that @ssad is | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
the lesser of two evils. Assad and the Russian air strikes havd been | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
focused on our hospitals, Arous schools and homes and much less so | :31:48. | :31:56. | |
on Isis asset. As their bombardments continue, our towns are weakened, | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
Isis comes in to fill the void and amidst economic collapse provides | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
services and the promise of steady salaries beefing up their | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
recruitment and their hall on the land. Make no mistake, however, | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
Syrians are resisting. Just last week in my own home town, women were | :32:20. | :32:28. | |
kidnapped and an activist w`s tortured to death and protesters | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
were shot for trying to keep Isis out. These people deserve your | :32:33. | :32:40. | |
support, and supporting thel is the all-new way to defeat Isis. -- is | :32:41. | :32:49. | |
the only way. I was not present in the Parliament that refused to take | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
action against Assad and his regime, but as Edmund Burke said, the only | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
thing that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to | :33:02. | :33:10. | |
war by. -- to walk by. This is not an easy decision but my dechsion to | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
support the motion is based on a clear plan agreed in the Vidnna | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
process, the support from the UN to tackle the barbaric operations of | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
Daesh and the commitment of the UK to action which is focused on | :33:26. | :33:34. | |
diplomatic humanitarian milhtary and national security issues. I have | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
read every e-mail from my constituents on this matter and a | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
great Hall heartedly with the speeches made by the honour`ble | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
member for Tonbridge and Malling and also the honourable member for Derby | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
South. I have asked myself this question. If an attack happdned on | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
Chester, masterminded from Raqqa, and my constituents were catght up | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
in such an attack and I had voted no to further intervention in Syria, | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
would I have acted in their best interests or in the interests of the | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
civilian populations that are under the devastating rule of Daesh? I | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
believe the answer to that puestion is no, and I will be voting with the | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
Government tonight. Roger Godseth. Everybody agrees that | :34:23. | :34:40. | |
Daesh is a threat to us all, our way of life, our liberties, and it has | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
to be destroyed. However, I'm not convinced that dropping mord bombs | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
on Syria is going to add anxthing to the defeat of this organisation | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
There were already a lot of bombs being dropped by Russia, Amdrica and | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
France. Apart from not destroying Daesh, it has created terror amongst | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
the population and resulted in vast displacement of the Syrian | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
population. This in turn is causing huge problems for European | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
governments trying to cope with the flood of refugees. Of coursd we in | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
this country should support France and we should give support, | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
solidarity in various other ways. The member and others have outlined | :35:24. | :35:33. | |
other ways we can assist. Btt of course we should give logistical, | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
intelligent special forces support to the Kurds and the elements of the | :35:38. | :35:45. | |
Free Syrian army who are dohng the fighting on the ground becatse it is | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
only ground forces and Arab ground forces which will eventuallx bring | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
about the displacement and defeat of Daesh in Syria. The PM has said that | :35:54. | :36:01. | |
there are 70,000 Syrians re`dy to fight and I take him at his word, | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
but we shall have to see. However, I suspect that this assertion will | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
come back to haunt him in the same way that the assertion made by a | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
predecessor at the very samd dispatch box that the UK was only 45 | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
minutes away from a nuclear or chemical attack by Saddam Htssein | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
has continued to strengthen the legacy of this former PM. Mr | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
Speaker, we can also share with the French and our allies our expertise | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
in monitoring and breaking tp terrorist cells because we have a | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
long experience of doing thhs in the UK. Furthermore, I believe we should | :36:43. | :36:50. | |
go to the UN and seek support for safe havens to be created whthin | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
Syria. I believe that this would be within our interests and thd | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
interests of other European countries and it would also be | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
humanitarian in helping not to force the population out of Syria. But Mr | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
Speaker, there has been one voice amongst the many that have been | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
raised today that has not bden heard. And that is from somdbody who | :37:13. | :37:20. | |
has actually experienced Dadsh and been a hostage of that organisation. | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
I referred to the French jotrnalist Nicolas Henin. In a recent `rticle | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
he wrote, "I know for sure that our pain, our Greek, our hopes `nd lives | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
do not touch them. Theirs is a world apart. Central to their worldview is | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
a belief that communities c`nnot live together with Muslims. But he | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
then goes on to say they cale to Paris with Kalashnikov is claiming | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
that they wanted to stop thd bombing but knowing only too well that the | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
attack would force us to intensify these counter-productive attacks. He | :38:01. | :38:08. | |
ends by saying they expect to be bombed. What they fear is unity Mr | :38:09. | :38:16. | |
Speaker, we must have unity and purpose in seeking out and | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
destroying Daesh. The Prime Minister will have his majority tonight and | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
he will win the vote, but I don t believe he has won the argulent Mr | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
Richard Drax. First of all, I'd pay tribute to the | :38:31. | :38:39. | |
RAF who are already flying over Iraq. First of all I shall puote Mr | :38:40. | :38:48. | |
Winston Churchill. " Never dver leave that any war will be dasy Or | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can deal with what | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
they Inc counter. He is no longer the master policy but a slave of | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
uncontrollable events. It is a cautionary observation and one that | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
runs through all the speechds I have heard tonight. The government's | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
laudable aim is to safeguard the peoples of this great nation, to | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
degrade Daesh. I did not sax destroying Daesh because bolbing | :39:20. | :39:26. | |
alone will not achieve this. So what does success look like? There is no | :39:27. | :39:39. | |
attitude for a ground assault, not least due to the ghosts of the | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
past. If we truly intend to tackle this problem, destroy Daesh and | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
follow through on UN resolution 2249, a ground offensive is the only | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
practical and logical and that bombing will degrade Daesh, kill | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
their operatives and give hdart to those fighting this organis`tion on | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
the ground, that it will not destroy them. The government has made clear | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
it has no wish to put boots on the ground, which today's motion | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
specifically excludes. But H suspect one consequence of a bombing | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
campaign is that that is ex`ctly where it might lead. We are a major | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
player and must play a promhnent role, standing up for values that | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
are envied across the globe. Islamic fundamentalism is regrettably our | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
generation's scourge and is not going to dissipate in the short | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
term. Could this be our 30 xear war? The current threat is real and | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
present and can and must be fought. So let's not discard the idda of | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
boots on the ground, whoever is they may be. But explore that option in | :40:46. | :40:53. | |
eventuality. As Churchill indicated, conflict subject us to forcds | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
outside our control. Subseqtently, every eventuality needs to be | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
examined. Finally, bombing `lone will not solve this vexed qtestion, | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
which has divided the house and will do so later. But it will delonstrate | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
to the world that we will ddfend our island, her people, stand bx our | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
allies and meet our international obligations. As I said on Monday | :41:20. | :41:27. | |
night, this house, in this house, even ill does thrive when good men | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
and women do nothing. -- evhl does thrive. Tonight I shall go hnto the | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
lobby with the government and our allies and the thousands of innocent | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
victims looking to us for hdlp. Order. I'm sorry to say that a | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
three-minute limit on backbdnch speeches will now have to apply Mr | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
Douglas Chapman. Thank you Lr Speaker. Despite many of thd good | :41:53. | :42:02. | |
speeches we have heard and the measured speeches we have hdard | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
today, in the background thd drums of war are still beating. I know | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
that that doesn't always make for good and rational decision-laking. | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
We don't disagree that Daesh are a wicked and evil group who mtst be | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
defeated. I am not a pacifist, I do not doubt that military powdr may at | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
some point play a part in their defeat. But I am utterly unconvinced | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
by the case that the Prime Linister has made here today. Those speaking | :42:30. | :42:36. | |
in favour seem to have thred main arguments for the necessity of | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
British action in Syria. Firstly that we should do so much to help | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
our allies. Secondly that the UK has special capabilities vital to the | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
completion of coalition aims and lastly that... I doubt that such | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
arguments are seductive but I would caution the government and `sk | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
itself whether this bombing campaign brings as any closer to a solution | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
of stability in the region. The most emotive argument is one that many of | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
our allies, particularly Fr`nce which have endured the most horrific | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
attacks that struck at the heart of the city a fortnight ago. I was the | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
first MP to sign the book of condolence for the French consulate | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
in Edinburgh, so I and my SNP colleagues beside me here t`ke our | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
duties to France and indeed our other Nato partners extremely | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
seriously. We have a determhnation to go after the financiers, | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
planners, enable is that terror attack and that will never cease. It | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
just so happens that I think bombing Syria does not bring justicd any | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
closer. The Prime Minister, I believe, has made a terribld mistake | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
in forcing the issue through the house, despite the extreme tnease at | :43:51. | :43:58. | |
many in this place... Why h`s he not focused instead on many of the other | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
ways the UK could help Syri` militarily? UK bases in Cyprus have | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
already been offered. UK support forces in the area and intelligence | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
sharing is increased. It is widely accepted that the UK... The Prime | :44:13. | :44:22. | |
Minister is saying there is a fight somewhere, why is Britain not in it? | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
There's so much more we could do to help our allies. Churchill once said | :44:27. | :44:35. | |
in the face of war that Georgia Hall was better than world war. | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
It is not bomb bomb bomb. Jtst to say that we will be supporthng the M | :44:39. | :44:53. | |
and from the SNP. Thank you very much. | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, on three occasions I left mx family | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
and boarded a plane bound for Afghanistan or Iraq. As the plane | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
went through the clouds, I took what could have been my final look out of | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
the window at this country `nd when you do that, you cannot help wonder | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
whether the people who have stood in this place have made the right | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
decision, whether the nation is with you, whether what you're gohng to do | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
is worthwhile. Today I rise to contribute to that decision,making | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
process and I can tell the house that this responsibility wehghs | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
heavy on my shoulders. Mr Speaker, I am clear that this motion should be | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
supported. It clearly states that the continuation of air strhkes into | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
Syria is just one part of the solution required to defeat Daesh | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
and to secure a peace both there and in Iraq. Bombing, diplomacy, aid and | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
countering radicalisation at home and abroad are not mutually | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
exclusive. Indeed, in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, we h`ve | :45:59. | :46:00. | |
surely seen that they are utterly interdependent. Today we must decide | :46:01. | :46:08. | |
on military action. Mr Speaker I would like to briefly speak on four | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
themes in support of that. Firstly, we are being asked to join ` | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
coalition. A coalition of some of our closest allies and some of our | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
most important allies in thd region. We must answer their call. Difficult | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
targets present themselves only fleetingly, and prosecuting those | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
targets requires a cover constantly with highly skilled pilots `nd | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
deadly accurate munitions. Our RAF offers that. Thirdly, the ndcessity | :46:38. | :46:45. | |
of indigenous ground manoeuvre. In Basra, my battle group was fighting | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
an insurgency that existed `lmost entirely just because we were there. | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
The 70,000 Syrians and 20,000 Kurds under arms should and could become a | :46:54. | :47:04. | |
cohesive force. That warming campaign will by the time for them | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
to be manoeuvred into the place they need so that we can coordin`te their | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
efforts in support of those air strikes. It is important to note of | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
course that those air strikds do degrade Daesh in the meantile. They | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
have a military effect of their own. That is why minor -- my fin`l point | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
is that it is clear the house agreed on the aims we are seeking to | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
achieve. It's clear that most of us agree on the means we are sdeking to | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
achieve them, diplomatic, humanitarian and military. The | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
disagreement is when and in what order. I say from personal | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
experience that when trying to buy time in a combat zone, you need to | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
suppress the enemy, keep thdir head down and deny them any action of | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
their own. The timing is never right but we must get on with this, that | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
is what we are required to do to help the Syrian people. Mr Speaker, | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
I think I speak for the whole house when I remarked on our ador`tion for | :48:02. | :48:08. | |
you today! I pay tribute to the contributions of my friends for | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
Derby South and Hull West. H agree with the points they have m`de. We | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
come to this house to choosd, Mr Speaker. Yesterday decide, xesterday | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
expressed our anger at times but not to commentator. Our purpose of our | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
debate is not entertainment, its education. It's the education we | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
need to choose. The choice today is not on a brand-new strategy, it s a | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
relatively narrow choice between a motion that extends our involvement | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
in an existing battle or a vote for the status quo. | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
It is not the choice -- is not the choice, it is a choice that takes | :48:45. | :48:54. | |
risks, involves risks. The risk of doing something has to be b`lanced | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
with the choice involved in doing nothing, which equally carrhes | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
problems for the country and indeed for the world. | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
Thank you. I couldn't have put it better. Not for the first thme, I | :49:08. | :49:15. | |
have to confess I'm angry whth the Government. I'm angry with them | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
because I believe they have turned their back on vulnerable fudgess | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
from the conflict in Syria to whom we should have held out our hands. | :49:22. | :49:29. | |
20,000 refugees by 2020 is too slow. The Government could have | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
demonstrated to the world what it has meant to be British. Thdy | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
haven't done enough. I know we must put party politics to one shde but | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
it is hard when there is a Prime Minister who says on the ond hand do | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
our bit, and on the other h`nd does his part too late. What reldvance | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
does that have to our choicd today? The answer is trust and comlitment. | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
If I vote for air strikes today I need to believe that the Prhme | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
Minister will stand beside those in the world who need him tomorrow | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
Part of the justification for the strikes is to show our commhtment to | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
the coalition against Daesh, that we are truly part of the fight. But if | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
the Prime Minister wants my support, Mr Speaker, I want to see hhs | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
commitment to the bigger fight ahead of us. The biggest recruiting | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
Sergeant for vile extremism is want. It's the dissatisfaction with the | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
chance the world is offering you, whether in the back streets of | :50:21. | :50:23. | |
Britain or in the cities of Africa and the Middle East where young | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
people find that the powerftl in our world forget them far too qtickly. | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
It is pervasive want that is fertile ground for the blame and resentment | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
that extremists cultivate. Now, I believe, Mr Speaker, that wd are | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
right to be sceptical of our own compassities but I don't thhnk we | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
should be sceptical of the Syrian people. I think rather we should | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
offer them refuge now and otr backing tomorrow. Whatever choice we | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
all make, Mr Speaker, we have to live with it. I will have to face my | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
constituents and explain myself to them with the decision I take. But | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
that is as absolutely nothing in comparison to what the Syri`n people | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
have faced and too much in the past five years, Mr Speaker, I think we | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
have seen those in need and we have turned away and we must not do that | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
now. I might not trust the Prime Minister that much, Mr Speaker, but | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
in the end, the solution to that mistrust is in my hands. If I vote | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
for his motion today, I want him to know that I will be here evdry week | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
holding him to account. If H do not believe he has lived up to the trust | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
of the British people, we h`ve backbench motions now, Mr Speaker | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
and I will waste no moment hn using them. Any support I give to the | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
Prime Minister is condition`l and we will return to this question again | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
and again. As my right honotrable friend said so well - if our job is | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
to work for peace, Mr Speakdr, then we will do it with scrutiny and we | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
will scrutinise the Vienna process to make sure it happens. We vote | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
today just on one tactic in this greater struggle. I see the limits | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
in the choice in front of us. My party, the Labour Party has a bigger | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
task and it is one that I'll never just leave to the Prime Minhster. | :52:10. | :52:17. | |
The extremism we face today comes -- the end of extremism comes with a | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
just and fair society. We w`ste not a moment. | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
The first duty of a Governmdnt is to protect its citizens and its | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
country. Whether or not to tse military force is often one of the | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
most significant and toughest decisions for any government and | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
indeed we as individual MPs will take. And especially so, for myself, | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
as a new member of this place. Much of what I have to say has already | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
been said with far greater dloquence from honourable and learned friends | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
and members of this Chamber. However, this is a serious latter we | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
are debating here today and one which my constituents take `n | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
interest in, too. In recent months and weeks we have been watch an | :53:01. | :53:07. | |
already fragile and serious situation in Syria further | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
deteriorate. We have listendd to the debates in the chamber and been able | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
to ask questions, rightly so. We are in agreement, we are all appalled by | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
the crimes Isil commit dailx against Syrian civilians. We can't fail to | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
be deeply moved by the plight of millions of Syrian refugees, forced | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
to flee their homes for safdty and the many more that are displaced in | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
their own country. And events in Paris have brought the seriousness | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
of this yet closer to home. As we have heard, and as we see, this is a | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
complex situation, needing ` complex and a comprehensive responsd. Mr Mr | :53:42. | :53:50. | |
Speaker, the UK through difficult I had is providing humanitari`n air in | :53:51. | :53:58. | |
the region -- Dfid. I have been to an area and Turkey | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
and saw the work being done. A political situation is also required | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
and I welcome news that this process is beginning with the Vienn` talks. | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
Working towards transitional government will be a key stdp | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
towards long-term peace and reconciliation and into est`blishing | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
democracy. But there comes ` point, Mr speaker, when humanitari`n, | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
political and diplomatic responses alone are no longer UN as a direct | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
threat posed by Isil to the UK increases, so, too, does our | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
responsibility to protect otr country and our citizens. Isil is | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
extreme and must be isolated. We need military action, not inaction. | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
What message would it send out if, as the Prime Minister said, we | :54:41. | :54:42. | |
subcontracted our responsibhlities to others? It is time to st`nd by | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
and with our allies. It is not logical for our planes to h`ve to | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
stop at the Iraqi bored we `re Syria. Isil does not recognhse the | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
border. They do not stop here. Their HQ is not in Iraq, it is in Raqqa. | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
Our RAF is already in the rdgion operating precision air strhkes now. | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
I believe British action can and will make a difference. And I will | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
therefore be supporting the Government this evening. | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
THE SPEAKER: Mr Liam Byrne. It is a pleasure to follow the | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
honourable lady. She is right it is a serious debate. One I considered | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
too and I'm sorry I come to a different conclusion to her. I speak | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
against the motion with a great sense of frustration. I'm frustrated | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
because I agree with the Prhme Minister that we are at war, we are | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
under attack. We now face an enemy like an enemy we have never faced | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
before. We are fighting agahnst shadowing netted works and nub louse | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
states. Today's debate is about the theatre of Syria but we all know | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
that there are other theeterings. We know that there is conflict that we | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
may need to come to in Yemen, in the border of Afghanistan and b`ck Stan | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
and in other regions in Libxa and parts of Nigeria. The enemy we are | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
debating tonight is Daesh btt we all know there are other enemies. We | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
know there are of Al-Qaeda still present somewhere around Afghanistan | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
and Pakistan. We know there is Al-Qaeda in the Arabian penhnsula. | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
We know there there is the Corizan group against us and groups in Iraq | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
and their allies. So what this says to us, Mr Speaker is this is going | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
to be a long march. As my honourable friend from Hull Green said earlier. | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
What is critical is we maintain solidarity and unity of purpose at | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
home for what is going to bd a very long fight. That's why, we cannot | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
afford in this House, to put forward strategies which we think are high | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
risk, which we think carry too great a Ricks of failure and that is what | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
the Government's strategy does, I'm afraid, this afternoon and this | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
evening. -- a risk of failure T carries too great a risk of failure. | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
I was grateful to see the Prime Minister put such emphasis on how | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
this is a joint struggle for both Western and Islamic freedom. You can | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
see that in the refugee camps of northern Iraq. We know that Daesh | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
has acquired the capability to plan attacks here in Europe. But that's | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
why what I wanted to see today was sustained short-term action to take | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
out that external planning capability of Isis, whether it | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
needed air cover or boots on the ground. But in the longer-tdrm, like | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
the Chair of the Defence Select Committee, I want to see an | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
overwhelming coalition brought to bear to smash Daesh into history and | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
that I'm afraid needs Vienn` first and not Vienna second. Hear, hear We | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
know we dare not risk defeat that. Would hand our enemies a propaganda | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
victory which we will hear `bout for years to come but victory mdans | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
bringing together air cover, ground forces and politics, too. And | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
heavens above, if we can't sustain that combination to take back Mosul, | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
then how on earth are we gohng it take Bacharach ka in Syria. That's | :57:48. | :57:55. | |
why I was disappointed, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister was not `ble to | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
specify who the ground forcds that will help us take back Raqq`. | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
In Iraq there are ground forces in Syria, quite frankly there `re not. | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
I don't want a half-hearted fight. I want a fall-on fight. We didn't have | :58:11. | :58:19. | |
a plan for that for the Govdrnment. I considered this carefully and | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
considered the views of members including the members of my area and | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
my constituents, whatever shde of the debate they find themselves | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
Having listened to the argulent I rise to support the motion. I | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
believe it is absolutely imperative that Britain and her allies work | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
together to eliminate the so-called Islamic State, a group whosd | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
continued existence is an affront to humane. A group responsible for | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
unparalleled brutality over recent years. A group that loathes freedom | :58:47. | :58:54. | |
and democracy. And, despises every value we hold dear. At around the | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
turn of the 5th century, St Augustin laid out his preconditions for a | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
just war. Among them, a deshre for peace. And as a final decishon, when | :59:05. | :59:11. | |
all other means have failed. I believe that his words remahn | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
pertinent in the 21st century. As negotiating with the so-called | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
Islamic State would be both impossible and abhorrent. Ftrther, I | :59:20. | :59:26. | |
am glad that this motion proposes to target the so-called Islamic State | :59:27. | :59:31. | |
exclusively. For it is this group of terrorists that have attackdd us and | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
pose our people danger. Thex hate us for who we are, not for what we do. | :59:37. | :59:42. | |
They must be stopped. Now while we might not approve of the actions | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
undertaken by the Assad reghme, our overwhelming priority must be to | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
protect the United Kingdom `nd support our allies. To do this, we | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
must stabilise Syria, avoidhng the creation of further ungoverned | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
spaces, in which terrorism will thrive. Had this motion mandated a | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
complete overthrow of the Sxrian regime by force, leading to the | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
destruction of the apparatus of government, I would not, in all | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
conscience, have been able to support it. For we would not have | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
learned the lessons from past conflicts. We would not be helping | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
to stabilise Syria and we would not be making Britain safer. In this | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
motion, however, I believe we have, we are and we will. | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
Hear, hear. Natalie McGarry. | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
Thank you Mr Speaker. I too admire your fortitude for sitting hn the | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
care for so long. -- in the chair. I visited North eastern Syria for | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
eight days in October to spdak to people, the Commander of thd YPJ, | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
the YPG that are fightk Daesh directly on the front line there. -- | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
fighting. And also o to spe`k to the leaders of the Democratic | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
Non-confederationism about the democratic revolution happening in | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
that part of the world. The Kurds I met were very, very clear, that they | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
were working to protect are`s and to retake areas taken by Daesh, like | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
Kabani and they are limiting their actions to where the Kurdish | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
population lie. They are not expansionists. And if they `re to be | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
considered as part of the alleged 70,000 moderate ground forcds put | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
forward by the Government their geographic limitation must give us | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
all pause for thought. What they told me is they want a democratic | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
solution to the ongoing civhl war in the first instance. Daesh insists | :01:40. | :01:48. | |
and thrives in the vacuum and chaos of uprising and the continuhng | :01:49. | :01:56. | |
instability of Syria lays in a multi-factioned, multi-facetted .. | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
Would my honourable member give way. Many thanks. Would she shard my | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
concerns he that the allies involved would have particular concerns over | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
the outcould. Syria they wish to see and we would be adding to the chaos | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
and destruction of Syria? Hdar, hear. Thank you to my honourable | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
friend for her point. I will come to that. I completely agree. Sxria will | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
continue to be unstable unthl the world realises the only solttion is | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
democracy. When will the UK understand that shoot first and | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
repent later is the wrong strategy? Indeed, Harry Patch the last Tommy | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
who died in 2009 wrote that. "All these lives ended for a word that | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
finished over a table -- for a war." What sense is that. The Prile | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
Minister refers to allies lhke the French, rush yances, Turks `nd Kurds | :02:47. | :02:57. | |
but the Kurds recently ex-- Turks recently shot down and aeroplane. | :02:58. | :03:06. | |
And they are accused of enclosing the trade border, the only safe | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
transport roof from the KRG. It is making it harder for the Kurds to | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
tackle Daesh. The Russians were accused by the Syrians whilst I was | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
there of bombing moderate opposition to Assad. Meanwhile, I saw Hezbollah | :03:19. | :03:26. | |
fighters in the Kurd controlled streets. There are already too many | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
agents in this conflict. Thd French, Americans, Russians, Israel, Turkey | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
and more, are already destroying and deploying air strikes in Syria with | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
no strategy plans and littld success. How do we proceed when we | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
are not even sure who our allies are, and who they are allies too? | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
Why would the UK consider rdpeating the same mistakes would havd a | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
different conclusion? The UK needs to support the creation of ` safe, | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
no-bomb-zone within Syria in the fist instance to protect thd ground | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
troops, such as they are, who are tackling Assad and Daesh and to | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
protect internal refugees in Syria. And we have to support Vienna and a | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
more comprehensive strategy at a democratic solution to the civil | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
war. And key to defeating D`esh is to stop the money flow. Considering | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
to some impressions they ard strategic in how they operate, | :04:23. | :04:24. | |
closing supply routes and controlling the infrastructtre. | :04:25. | :04:26. | |
There is serious money that props this up. Where is it coming from? | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
Who supplies the arms, who hs purchasing the oil? Cutting the fund | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
will kill Daesh more effectddive than gesture air strikes. | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
The people that I spoke to hn serious -- in Syria stayed hn Syria | :04:43. | :04:52. | |
because they wanted to fight Daesh. We should treat them better than | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
just the two sticks. None of us come like lead to the decision wd make | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
today. But one thing I'm sure of is that at the forefront of all of our | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
minds is the safety and sectrity of every one of our constituents. In | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
coming to my decision today I have read all of my constituents's | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
letters and e-mails. I have also asked myself a number of | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
time-honoured questions as to whether a conflict is just. Could | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
this military action promotd a just cause? Are our intentions rhght Is | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
it a last resort? Is there ` possibility of success? Is the | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
action proportionate? Time prohibits me from a detailed response but may | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
I say this? In an ideal world no right thinking person would advocate | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
military action. But we don't live in an ideal world, far from it. We | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
and our constituents live whth the very real, present and vicious | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
threat of the ideology of Isil, whose ultimate aim is nothing less | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
than to destroy civilised society as we know it. This motion asks for | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
authority for military action, air strikes exclusively against Isil in | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
Syria to defend the UK and to prevent terrorist acts by Isil. Can | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
anyone doubt this is a just cause? And then again, do we have right | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
intentions? Just as the UK hs compassionately motivated in seeking | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
humanitarian efforts ins and to support them, supporting refugee | :06:30. | :06:38. | |
camps in Lebanon, welcoming refugees here, I believed that support for | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
this motion in many parts of this house is born out of the sale | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
compassion for the suffering Syrian people. Children raped, Chrhstians | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
tortured, aid workers beheaded, whole families given three choices | :06:50. | :06:57. | |
by Isil, submit, leave or dhe. If our goal for them is stabilhsation | :06:58. | :07:05. | |
and prevention from an evil, barbaric oppressor which threatens | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
not only there but our peacdful security then I believe we have | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
right intentions. Then therd is legitimate authority, do we have | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
this? Indeed, clearly if thhs house supports our Government's motion and | :07:20. | :07:30. | |
notes that we have a legal basis... Will she join me in welcoming the | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
unanimous nature of this security council resolution so that there can | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
be no question the Russians and the Chinese are with us and banning | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
against this dreaded threat? I do indeed. The wider international | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
community says that Isil constitutes an unprecedented threat to | :07:50. | :07:51. | |
international peace and sectrity and calls on states to take all | :07:52. | :08:00. | |
necessary measures to prevent threats by Isil. And then, hs it a | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
last resort? Ongoing diplom`tic humanitarian political ende`vours | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
are continuing. But air strhkes whilst not in themselves enough | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
will, I believe, now be an dssential component if we are to degr`de and | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
defeat this terrible force. Then what of the probability of success? | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
The hardest question of all. There can be no guarantees, we've been | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
told that. But as a probability yes. I believe in terms of weakening | :08:33. | :08:43. | |
Isil's capability to attack our citizens here, reducing its training | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
bases, in terms of attacking Isil's control centres in Raqqa and | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
elsewhere from which jihadists are sent out to other lands, in terms of | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
reducing the spread of their terrible ideology, I believd there | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
is a probability of success. In considering all of this, I have | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
concluded in good consciencd and good faith that to support the | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
Government's motion tonight and that the action proposed is both right | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
and just. We have heard somd excellent and thoughtful spdeches | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
today. There are some big issues in the debate but I want to totch on | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
one issue that many honourable and right honourable members rahsed | :09:21. | :09:28. | |
earlier. The Prime Minister's use of the term terrorist sympathisers | :09:29. | :09:37. | |
Isil Daesh struck and deeplx hurt the Eccles community through the | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
savage murder of my constittent Alan Henning. That community camd | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
together, Muslims and Christians, to mourn our loss and to celebrate the | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
life of our local hero. If H choose to vote against air strikes in Syria | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
today, as I will do, it will be deeply offensive to me and that | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
community for me to be labelled a terrorist sympathiser for mx | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
decision. Not a single person in Eccles or the rest of my colmunity | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
has said to me that we should authorise an air strikes in Syria | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
because of the herd used to our community -- because of the hurt | :10:15. | :10:22. | |
caused to our community. Thd question of the 70,000 troops has | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
been raised many times. The 70, 00 figure is only 40,000 open to | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
Western influence with 30,000 more strongly Islamic State and this is a | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
key question and we did not hear many answers. The Prime Minhster | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
says the troops are not ide`l. The honourable member for Basildon and | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
Billericay called them mythhcal It is important to be clear of the | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
numbers at ad has also been said, the strategy also does not `ddress | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
what can stop the moderates splitting into many separatd | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
military 's in future given that they are already splintered. It | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
would have been better to work through the issues around the | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
possibility of coordinating action with these ground troops before the | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
decision had to be taken. E`rlier my honourable friend gave his reasons | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
for not supporting the motion. He described the military action as a | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
gesture and not effective mhlitary action. A gesture that would not get | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
rid of Daesh, would not get rid of Assad. I agree with my right | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
honourable friend. I will so agree with friends who say we must be sure | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
we are taking the right acthon, the justified action, and the action | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
that would be effective. I'l not convinced about that action and I | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
will be voting against the Government's motion tonight. | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
Mr David Burrows. Mr Speaker, we can have too much of a partial view of | :11:48. | :11:58. | |
history. I believe the relevance to history is not so much the votes in | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
relation to Iraq in 2003 but those of 2014. Should we be extending the | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
motion that was agreed by a majority of 491 to extend our operathons from | :12:10. | :12:24. | |
Iraq to Syria. The member from Villa Ricky opposes the motion. Hd opposed | :12:25. | :12:38. | |
those two Iraq. All those pdople voted against operations in Iraq. | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
It's not surprising they were against sending operations ,- | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
extending operations to Syrha. The Right Honourable member for | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
Islington North opposed the motion in 2014. He was making very clear | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
then, as I'm sure if he had more opportunity to respond to mx | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
intervention he would have done now, he made it clear that in prhnciple | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
he roses -- opposes the intdrvention in Iraq. It means they do not | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
support what has been happening in Iraq, what has been doing good in | :13:13. | :13:20. | |
Iraq, regaining territory. What they would be doing is going agahnst what | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
is the context of our operations in Iraq, which are the operations to go | :13:24. | :13:31. | |
to the aid of Iraq, the rights to defend themselves, to support them | :13:32. | :13:33. | |
in their efforts to defend themselves against those Ishl | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
jihadists, it genocidal jih`dists who were going against Muslhms, | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
Christians and Yazidis. We shouldn't forget that context which brought to | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
favourite in such an overwhdlming majority. The history is as much | :13:49. | :13:57. | |
about 1998 as 2003. When we look at the liberation of Sinjar, that was | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
opposed by the Leader of thd Opposition. It was because of the | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
support of the RAF pilots that led to that operation. We lead to - we | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
saw the horrors of that. He's making some very powerful points. Would he | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
agree that crucial in our intervention in Iraq to datd has | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
been the fact that there have not been civilian casualties. Wd have | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
the capability to take decisive action. That is right. The | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
honourable member for that that but referred to it as a disgracd that | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
the operation has taken place. It is not a disgrace to liberate Sinjar. | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
But it has been affected. It has been affected and proportionate and | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
not leading to loss of civilian lives. The grim reality, thd horrors | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
revealed in Sinjar, the mass graves of older women who have been | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
butchered by Isil. We should stand behind those operations. As the | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
honourable member for barrow furnace said, he indeed... I along with him | :15:07. | :15:17. | |
recognise the important principle to protect from genocide. That is what | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
we were seeing in Iraq and Syria and we had a duty. I wanted us to go | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
further then and I obviouslx want us to extent to Syria now. As H said to | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
the Prime Minister then and I say now, the genocidal actions of Isil | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
jihadists have no borders and we read -- we need to recognisd that | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
our response to genocide, the same now as in 2014. There should be no | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
board in our operations between -- border between Iraq and Syrha. We | :15:52. | :15:59. | |
have heard a lot about the effectiveness of the operathons We | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
have to be careful in the coming armchair generals. Surely wd should | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
accept the evidence? The evhdence from Armed Forces and the m`jority | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
of the intelligence community that we have a very clear threat to our | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
citizens and a proportionatd response to it. My question to our | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
constituencies is, if one of those seven attempts -- attacks on the UK | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
had not been thwarted and h`d got through, what would I have done I | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
would have had to say that we must tackle the threat by going to the | :16:31. | :16:39. | |
head of the snake. There is no more solemn or important duty of this | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
house than its decision to `uthorise military action and it has weighed | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
heavily on me in recent days. To risk putting our service men and | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
women in harm 's way is a great and heavy burden and so it should be. In | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
recent months we have seen the horror of the attacks in Paris | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
Tunisia, Lebanon and Turkey all committed by Daesh. But even these | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
acts of terror failed to tell the story of the full scale of the | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
threat and the fact that it's growing. In 2014 there were 15 | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
global attacks perpetuated by Daesh. This year we have so far sedn 1 0. | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
Will my honourable friend ghveaway? I will. Seven potential att`cks in | :17:16. | :17:25. | |
the UK over the last year h`ve been prevented by our counterterrorism | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
services. Would my honourable friend take this opportunity to put on the | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
record our appreciation for the role played by our intelligence services | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
in preventing terrorism in the UK? I would absolutely take this | :17:39. | :17:40. | |
opportunity and I thank the honourable member. It is not | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
theoretical, the threat. Our friends and allies around the world have to | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
live with the consequences `nd now they are asking for our help. But we | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
must not forget the murder `nd mayhem being visited upon the people | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
-- the people of Syria and Hraq The men and women of Yazidi villages | :17:58. | :18:07. | |
were separated. First the mdn and boys were taken out to the | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
countryside and machine-gunned en masse. After this, the women were | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
separated by age. Those too old to be kept as slaves for Daesh were | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
shot. The rest were rounded up as spoils of war. Following thd | :18:21. | :18:30. | |
liberation of Sinjar... The sheer barbarism of this organisathon is | :18:31. | :18:32. | |
difficult to comprehend and I cannot look at myself in the mirror every | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
day if I know that we are allowing this evil to thrive. Honour`ble | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
friends across this house h`ve rightly pointed out that evdnts and | :18:41. | :18:42. | |
recent history across the Mhddle East must give us pause for thought | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
whenever and wherever we consider any further intervention. And I | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
agree. But my country and mx party have a proud history of standing up | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
to tyranny and intervening to protect people from poisonots | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
ideologies and evil despots. This began with the fight against fascism | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
in the 1930s. If you were to visit the town hall in Stoke-on-Trent you | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
would find a plaque of into the veterans of the Internation`l | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
Brigades. The men and women of that movement risked their lives for | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
their commitment to internationalism and solidarity and to stand against | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
an ideology which they nuke posed an existential threat to our w`y of | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
life. The great attempt to pose no less a threat. For this sidd of the | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
house, the spirit of internationalism, humanitarhan | :19:29. | :19:30. | |
intervention in solidarity with people from across the world is one | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
of the longest and proudest traditions for the British left | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
Which is why we must not fall into the mindset of isolationism. And | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
recognise that issues of war are never clear-cut. There is a cost of | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
inaction as much as there is a cost of action. And if we allow them to | :19:46. | :19:54. | |
go unrestrained we will bear the burden for that. As a tavern ember | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
of the UN Security Council we have a duty to come to the aid of our | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
allies in times of war. As ` liberal democracy we have a duty to stamp | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
out the evils of religious fascism wherever it rears its head. | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
We have a duty to play our part against a global threat. | :20:12. | :20:19. | |
Can my honourable lady give way Too late, sorry. We will find otrselves | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
incapable of meeting obligations to the country, to our allies, and our | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
values. We will all enter the division lobbies tonight with a | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
heavy heart. Knowing that there are consequences of our vote, whichever | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
way we choose to act. I am laking the difficult decision to vote for | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
extended action against Daesh. No-one seeks war, but I gentinely | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
believe this is the best wax to support Syrians and to protdct our | :20:45. | :20:46. | |
citizens. Hear, hear. Thank you, Mr Speaker, may H say I | :20:47. | :20:58. | |
value greatly the speeches from my colleagues, honourable membdr from | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
Dorset South Tonbridge and Lalling and Plymouth Moorview. I also value | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
all the constituents who have contacted me and I also valte some | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
constituents who I know havd been praying. I do believe that Daesh has | :21:11. | :21:19. | |
effectively declared war on us. I do believe that Tunisia and thd seven | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
thwarted attacks are effecthvely acts of war. In my constitudncy I'm | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
incredibly grateful for the services of the security forces and the | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
police because during the Rtgby World Cup most of the blood spilled | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
was on the rugby field. Of course, today and tomorrow, I am concerned. | :21:39. | :21:46. | |
I am amazed by the RAF and the work they have done in Iraq. I'm amazed | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
we have done air strikes and there have been no civilian casualties. I | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
do believe it is right that we should allow our forces to cross | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
that border, the border that the enemy does not recognise. Btt, I am | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
also very aware that air strikes in Syria may result in civilian | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
casualties. Blue I do believe that whether I walk through the lobby, Mr | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
Speaker, to your right or ldft, I do believe civilians will die. However, | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
with this motion I am pleasdd that the Government is linking mhlitary | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
action with humanitarian action and diplomatic action. I'm very grateful | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
to the Secretary of State for International Development and the | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
Minister for Syrian refugees, when I have asked them - do not forget the | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
refugees in this area that were there before the crisis and I'm | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
reassured our action will bd for those refugees as well. The | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
Palestinians in the camps in Syria. Over ten years ago I marched with a | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
million other people against the war. Today, I do believe it is | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
different. There is a United Nations' resolution. There `re Arab | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
countries that will align whth us. When I go through the ayes lobby, it | :23:08. | :23:16. | |
will be for the refugees and it will be for the security in Twickenham. | :23:17. | :23:25. | |
Hear, hear. Dr Philip a Wickford. Thank you very | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
much. I'm glad to follow thd honourable member opposite for | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
Twickenham. We both overlapped slightly in Gaza where we sdrved. I | :23:36. | :23:45. | |
served there as a surgeon, having started my career in Belfast where I | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
grew up. I have seen the results of terrorism, whether it is dud to | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
terrorism or bombing. It is not pretty and nothing that people wish. | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
Having grown up in Northern Ireland and obviously there are members on | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
these benches who were based there, I wonder how we would have felt if | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
someone thought we could have served that problem by bombing, by air | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
strikes? We are talking abott a situation that is complex and | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
obviously we have heard all the objections to the military | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
intervention. I'm not going to go over them again, because I only have | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
three minutes but the chancd of chaos is high. We have Russha who | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
wants one thing. We have Turkey who wants another. And I'd like to ask - | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
has anyone informed the Kurds that we are all paying great tribute to, | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
that no-one has any plans to give them a homeland at the end of this? | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
So 100 years on, yet again they are being allowed to fight but we are | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
not promising them nothing. That's right. I think it is import`nt going | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
to any military action, who get the basics. Who are our enemies? Who are | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
our friends? What is the go`l? How will dewhoa define victory `nd what | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
is our exit? We have had a tragic and incoherent approach to the | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
Middle East for decades. Having worked in Gaza people descrhbed to | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
me death following from the sky all the time. Sometimes directlx from | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
Western powers, sometimes wdre regimes we either supported or | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
created, all the way from the Sha of Iran to zavenlt we have supported | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
militias and rebels when we thought they could be of use. What have they | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
turned a into? The Mujahidedn becoming the Taliban, the rdbels and | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
chaos in Libya. We hear abott the patchwork of 70,000 boots on the | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
ground in Syria? What will they become? Are they our next problem? | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
And that's the problem. It's not that anyone here supports D`esh | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
despite intemporate comments. It is the in fact that we do not believe | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
air strikes will work. The two points that were raised werd | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
national security and stability in the Middle East. We will recruit | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
extremists there. We will r`dicalise people here. Hear, hear. We all have | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
sympathy with Paris but that will make not bombing any more effective. | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
So, for those who have been struggling with their conschences | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
and how to vote, I beg you, please, think again and vote against this. | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
Hear, hear. Bernard Jenkin. Mr Speaker, following the honourable | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
lady from Central Ayrshire H'm struck once again about this debate | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
that we're grappling with on the one hand what is actually no more than a | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
minor tactical correction in the conduct of the air war against Isis | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
and, on the other hand, we `re trying to assess and judge `n | :26:49. | :26:57. | |
overall strategic plan which is being formulated amongst a rather | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
disparate and disunited coalition and which is necessarily ch`otic and | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
fluid and bound to change. @nd this is in the context, Mr Speakdr, if we | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
are looking at it historically we've effectively been mounting a 14 | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
or 15-year campaign since 9/11, against a global Islamist insurgency | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
and we haven't begun to get the measure of this campaign yet. Rather | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
like Northern Ireland, to which the honourable lady referred, when we | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
spent 10 or 15 years in Northern Ireland getting it wrong. The West | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
is now faced with a far mord complex international problem and wd are | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
learning, we are discussing and this debate is perhaps part of that | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
process, but we haven't got near, yet, the kind of full and | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
comprehensive understanding that will win us this campaign in the | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
long run. And mistakes will continue to be | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
made but that does not mean we can simply turn our back on this present | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
situation. There are risks whichever way we turn. And one other `spect | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
that we periodically heard hn this debate, is that somehow what is now | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
visited upon us is our fault, we are being punished for our own listakes | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
and errors and that the terrorist attacks on our own country `re | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
something that we have somehow provoked. This is fundament`lly to | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
misunderstand the nature of this terrorist threat. The West hs omni | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
present that world. We are beamed in by satellite. The people th`t are | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
challenging their own outdated religious power structures. Women | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
want equality. Young people aspire to be educated at Western | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
universities. This is challdnging the whole structure of the Luslim | :28:51. | :28:58. | |
world and the Muslim - and the extremes of the Muslim world are | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
striking back at us. If we just disengage they are not going to | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
leave us aloop. We have to dngage with this problem. We may go on | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
getting it wrong. -- leave ts alone. We may go on making mistake but | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
that's the nature of warfard. Paris was on act of war. We have been | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
suffering acts of warfare against our country begins 9/11 and even | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
before that. We are going to have to - the West is going to have to get | :29:23. | :29:29. | |
better, more coherent, more united and perhaps the most signifhcant | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
strategic effect of this decision is that we will be joining our | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
coalition partners and helphng to create that diplomatic and political | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
process. Thank you Mr Speaker, in thd debate | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
in 2013 in action on Syria, I voted against. I was very happy to do so. | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
I didn't think the case had been made, or the plan in place. I | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
thought through that extraordinarily careful at the time because I was | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
conscious of what the Assad regime was doing to civilians in Sxria and | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
are still doing. In all the sound and fury and rhetoric around that | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
debate and this debate, it hs vital we cut through and get to the heart | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
of what we are actually discussing and for me, I am very much taken | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
with what has been said abott - that this is an extension of an dxisting | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
action. This is not a war - this isn't carpet bombing of civhlians as | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
one person suggested to me , it is an extension of action against a bar | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
boroughs regime that threatdns our own citizens. I believe too that | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
this meets the criteria of ` just war, that it meets those crhteria on | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
legality, proportionality and were spent of success and in temples last | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
resort. We have a clear UN resolution. The idea put around that | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
somehow you have to have a chapter 7 resolution is not the case. I quote | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
from the House of Commons lhbrary which is set out carefully Tyne | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
size, "Phrases such as all necessary measures as used in UN Security | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
Council resolution are code for the use of force in other Securhty | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
Council resolutions, it is immaterial they do not menthon using | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
force." And point to a a nulber of examples in the way the UN has | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
argued for that. There is a case for self-defence in internation`l law | :31:10. | :31:17. | |
and also the case of act ag`inst the non-state that we are... We have a | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
call from our allies, from France and others, Jordan, the UAE, the | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
Germans are getting involved, it is clear. There is the militarx | :31:26. | :31:27. | |
practiceticality, the imaginary border where we can only opdrate on | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
one side, not the other and then the direct threat to the UK and our | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
citizens. I say this very c`refully, Mr speaker, because of the | :31:36. | :31:37. | |
individuals that have been recruited from my own consitcy that h`ve gone | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
to fight in Syria and they have communicated back, with my consitcy | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
and with people here and max swrl been involved in plots against this | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
country. It is a serious thhng to consider because whilst I bdlieve | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
there is no just and military solution to dealing with Dadsh's | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
ideology, we have to tackle it here, in disrupting their communication | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
methods n terms of security, in tackling their ideology, colmunity | :32:04. | :32:05. | |
relations and in temples local policing, we have to get to the | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
heart and as long as this rdgime remains as a part in that rdgion, | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
directing and recruiting and aspiring people, we'll conthnue to | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
have a problem even if we mdet those other criteria. I have my doubts, I | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
have my doubts around the ground troops, and the hopes being placed | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
in the political process and in the failure of this Government to follow | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
through on reconstruction, Lr speaker, in the past, but wd cannot | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
let perfection be the enemy. I have had to consider do those outweigh | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
the reasons I outlined at the beginning. My answer is no, which is | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
why I'll support the Governlent It is a great pleasure to follow the | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
honourable member for Cardiff. I actually agree with virtually | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
everything he has said. I think the key point is this - there is | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
something happening which is dreadful and totally unacceptable | :32:54. | :33:01. | |
and we have to act. And as Tnited Nations' resolution 2249 actually | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
states, it is giving us the scope to do something. It sets out, really, | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
the reason for its urgency, and also the reason why we actually have to | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
take action. I think the thhng to remember is this - Daesh is | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
operating in a state which hs broken, Syria and a constittency a | :33:19. | :33:20. | |
which is almost broken, northern Iraq. And we are actually extending | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
the same treatment from Irap to Syria. It is not a huge exp`nsion, | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
it is simply a question of loving to Syria because there is a nedd to do | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
so. And that media is all about making | :33:34. | :33:42. | |
sure we really do strike at the heart of this dreadful regile. - | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
and that need. I would also add that it is absolutely imperative that we | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
do a series of other things. We cannot avoid the need to opdrate | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
through the Vienna process for instance, because we do need our | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
allies. The key point about resolution 2249 and the reqtest from | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
France and the United States is that we are wanted, we are actually | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
needed in this fight and by demonstrating resolution and | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
commitment, we are also strengthening because of thd allies | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
generally to deal with this particular problem. Of course it is | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
a battle of ideas. Yes, I whll give way. Don't you think it's r`ther | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
perplexing that more effort has not been made by the Government and | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
others to deal with the arms trade in the Middle East, to closd the | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
Turkish border that is so fluent and tackle the funding from Saudi | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
Arabia? I think the Prime Mhnister really made it clear earlier in his | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
speech and previously that we are taking those steps. Of course more | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
needs to be done but things are happening and they are happdning | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
with rigour and they are happening with appropriateness to the | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
challenges ahead. So I would say absolutely we need to do more, and | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
more will be done. But I want to talk about the battle of iddas | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
because it is absolutely crtcial. It is the fact that our way of life is | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
being challenged, it is unddr attack, our democracy, our | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
internationalism, our toler`nce is under attack and that is wh`t we | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
have to defend. That's why ht's important that we stand up `nd fight | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
against what is absolutely `wful. And the reason it is import`nt we | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
state those three things and others is because that is how we ddal with | :35:31. | :35:39. | |
the moderate Muslims, we relind them that it is important to valte those | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
things too. Does the honour`ble gentleman opposite not give a - see | :35:45. | :35:53. | |
a danger in Saudi Arabia is being given such a huge position hn this? | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
Women are not well treated hn Saudi Arabia and we're giving thel a huge | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
role in the region. The danger I see is the 1 where we do not participate | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
and we do not actually applx our values, our skills, our leadership | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
in this cause. The differences between now and before are `ctually | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
that we need more unity on this one more than we have ever had before. | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
The interesting thing also `bout the debate we had on Syria last time is | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
that we should have acted then because the chaos that has raged in | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
Syria since has actually made it possible for the Islamic St`te to do | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
so well in developing its infrastructure and developing its | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
reach and that is something we've got to bear in mind and we just | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
don't want to make the same mistake again. That would be fatal to our | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
interests in the Western world, fatal to our ambition to crdate a | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
new Middle East which is actually where governments thrive, where the | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
economics are successful, where the culture is great. I thought might | :37:01. | :37:08. | |
Honourable friend really hit the nail on the head when he talked | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
about that future, that ambhtion, that design effectively for the | :37:12. | :37:20. | |
Middle East. It's about us working together as nations, I've s`id this | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
so often in this house alre`dy, working together, sharing otr | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
capacities, sharing our polhcies, sharing our willingness to `ctually | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
make a difference. That's why I am voting for the Government tonight. I | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
have done so, I will do so on the basis of considerable thought and | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
considerable discussion with members of my constituency. But ulthmately | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
our responsibility is to st`nd firm with our allies, defeat a tdrrible, | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
terrible scourge on our globe and make sure that we can rebuild, at | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
rebuild we must do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Following the horrhfying | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
attacks over Ankara and Beirut and recently in Paris, no one should be | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
in any doubt about the capability and intention of Daesh to c`rry out | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
further terrorism across thd globe. There has to be a strong | :38:25. | :38:26. | |
international response and the UK must be part of that. Enough have | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
been -- has been said about comments the Prime Minister may have said | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
last night. For my part, having prosecuted some of the most serious | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
terror threats in this country and worked with the front bench to | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
thwart terrorism, I'm sure the Prime Minister has my syntheses on this | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
matter. The question is whether there is a lawful and compelling | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
case for air strikes. So far as lawful is concerned, much h`s been | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
said about UN resolution 2249. It does not in and of itself atthorise | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
force but I accent that it hmplies accepting self defence and that | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
would be a lawful action for action that has been taken and may be taken | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
in the future. The question is for me whether if lawful, the action is | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
nonetheless compelling and coherent. The argument that there is | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
no logic taking military action in Iraq but not in Syria is seductive | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
and it is powerful. But in the end it is unconvincing. The sittation in | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
Syria is very different to the situation in Iraq. The Civil War has | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
a different dynamic. The opposition forces are differently constituted | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
and of course Russia has a heavy involvement in support of the Assad | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
Government. That does not mdan there should be no response in Syria, and | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
there is much in the Prime Minister's motion that I wotld agree | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
with in relation to the Vienna process, in relation to the talks | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
for a transition to an incltsive Syria and in relation to | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
humanitarian suffering. But whether there are two BS strikes is another | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
matter. I am not against air strikes per se. But I accept that it is | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
difficult to see how territory could be taken from Daesh without them. | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
But in my view air strikes without an effective ground Force are | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
unlikely to make any meaningful contribution to defeating D`esh | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
There is no effective ground force. I won't because there are lots of | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
people who have been waiting to speak. The Prime Minister rdlies on | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
what he calls the 70,000 Syrian opposition fighters on the ground | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
but that is wholly unrealistic. They are a disparate group of individuals | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
with varying motivations and capabilities. They are by ddfinition | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
oppositional. It is hard to see how we could honour them and protect | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
them without being drawn into conflict with Russia. So on that | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
basis I will vote against the motion tonight, I will say yes I rdspect | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
the views on all sides of pdople who form a different view and if the | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
Prime Minister's motion is passed, I will support our horses in `ction. | :41:02. | :41:12. | |
Richard Graham. Mr Speaker, tonight's debate on Daesh and Isil | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
is an important moment for this Parliament. Earlier we had | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
outstanding speeches opposite, I thought, from the Right Honourable | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
members for Derby South, Kingston-upon-Hull, Wakefield and | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
Normington. All of them highlighted the seriousness of the thre`t to our | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
nation, the powerful United Nations Security Council resolution and the | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
urging from regional governlents and our closest neighbour Francd for our | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
action. Many others today h`ve also argued, rightly I believe, that | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
tonight's motion includes a logical extension to what we have already | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
voted overwhelmingly for in Iraq, across a boundary that the | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
terrorists do not recognise. Some also argue that the RAF would make | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
no difference to what our allies are already doing, and that the risks to | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
civilians in Syria are too great. But if either was true, Mr Speaker, | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
why would our allies want us into area and wide with the Iraqh | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
Government want us in Iraq? -- why would our allies want us in Syria | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
and why would the Iraqi Govdrnment want us in Iraq? Surely we would be | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
calling for the return of otr Armed Forces and if that was true, surely | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
the Right Honourable member would also be calling for no air strikes | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
at all from the RAF, but he is not and we are not. And I believe that | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
there is a good case that wd have made a difference in Iraq. So | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
tonight I believe we can find much common ground across all parties | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
through supporting a close Duropean partner and our closest allx, | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
through the umbrella legitilacy of the UN, through the competence of | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
the RAF and the logic of extending our operational boundaries. To those | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
of my constituents with doubts, I believe it's important to rdmember | :43:07. | :43:17. | |
that we're not invading Syrha, we're not waging war against Islal or | :43:18. | :43:19. | |
Muslims, and that this is, `s the motion says, one part of a broader | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
political strategy and this is our Government aggro plus big | :43:23. | :43:24. | |
challenge, to defeat Isil so that a peace settlement has meaning on the | :43:25. | :43:26. | |
ground, it would be unbelievably difficult given the blood on the | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
bridge and the political, tribal and war scarred differences of those | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
around the table in Vienna. A difficult settlement and tr`nsition | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
is the eventual key and we have a role to play in the peacemaking and | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
subsequent regeneration. Th`t agreement and the Government's | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
afterwards, is what I believe Syria needs and its success or fahlure | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
will determine whether we are seen to have played a positive role, a | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
generation on. Mr Speaker, H did not done to the house with any pleasure | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
to recommend our forces takhng lives, but the threat is very real, | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
so I will be voting for the motion. I urge all parties to do so because | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
a decision not to do so would perhaps show weakness. | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
Like other members I have struggled to work out what is the right thing | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
to do this evening, faced whth a very difficult decision as H have | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
done with every decision regarding military action since I havd been a | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
member of this house. In thd previous parliament I voted in | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
favour of action in Libya and Iraq in 2014 and against action hn Syria | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
in 2013. I know how hard it is to vote in favour of action and against | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
action and I have learned in the five and a half years that H have | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
been a member of this place that it is all most impossible to s`y which | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
of these decisions with the benefit of hindsight was 100% right or 00% | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
wrong. Having weighed up thd argument is for tonight's motion, I | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
will be voting against. Before I explain my reasons, let me say that | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
the house knows that I am a Muslim. Those that know me well know that my | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
relief in -- my belief in God and religion is not just a small part of | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
why identity or a box that H take on the censors but a defining | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
characteristic of my life. @nd I am a Sunni too, Sunni born and Sunni | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
raised, and since I have bedn able to make up my own mind on these | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
things, a Sunni by choice. We can all agree that Isil are not | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
representative of our faith and they are not representative of Mtslims. | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
They are outlaws from Islam who engage in indiscriminate sl`ughter | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
and who murder any Muslim that does not agree with them. If you are | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
different or if you disagred, you die. I am well aware that a Muslim | :45:51. | :45:57. | |
like myself ought to be killed, according to Isil. Believe le that I | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
-- when I say that I do not simply want to see Isil defeated, H want to | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
see them eradicated. But I believe that the action will not work and | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
that is why I cannot vote for it. I believe that the chaos that will | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
come from an ungoverned space, many members have said air strikds alone | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
will not work and I agree. H believe we cannot simply bomb the ground, we | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
have to have a strategy to hold it as well. On this point I listen | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
carefully to the arguments `bout the 70,000 moderates and normally we | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
believe that our enemy's endmy is our friend. But in this casd I | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
believe that our enemy's endmy will turn out not to be our friend. There | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
are Duminy different groups with too many shifting allegiances and | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
objectives. -- there are too many. Would she agree that many British | :46:48. | :46:50. | |
Sunni Muslims and British Mtslims agree with her sentiments on this | :46:51. | :46:59. | |
evil sect of Daesh? I am gr`teful for that intervention and I agree | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
with the point made and I bdlieve in this respect I do and I am `ble to | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
speak for the wider British Muslim and British Sunni community. Mr | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
Speaker, what of Russia? Thdy too are acting against Isil but they are | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
also arming some of the manx moderates that the Government will | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
be seeking to rely on in order to hold the ground that they bdlieve is | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
necessary following air strhkes Mr Speaker, I think back also to the | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
decision regarding Syria in 200 word team -- in 2013 when I believe | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
that action against Assad would create a vacuum which would lead to | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
more militancy for which we would be responsible. Now I believe we risk | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
strengthening Assad and cre`ting a deeper crisis for which we `re also | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
responsible. As for our own security, my instinct tells me that | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
our threat is the same whether we act or we don't act. We will not be | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
any more in their sights if we vote in favour. Finally Mr Speakdr in the | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
short time left to me, therd has been some suggestion in the last day | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
or so that the time for apportionment of blame will come, | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
those in favour will have to step forward and there will be nowhere to | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
hide. If you vote against, `s I will, the implication is th`t you | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
can avoid the blame. For those who think that way, let me say this If | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
only the world were that silple There are consequences and hnnocent | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
people will die from action and inaction whatever we decide | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
tonight. We will all bear a measure of responsibility. Thank yot Mr | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable lady oppositd who | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
spoke from personally variance with conviction and with great p`ssion | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
although coming to a differdnt conclusion than mine. Mr Spdaker, | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
matters of war and peace, the security of the United Kingdom are | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
the primary responsibility of this Government and this house. This is | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
the first time in my capacity as a member of this house that I have | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
been asked to vote on committing the UK to military action. And H can | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
assure fellow members as well as my constituents that this is not a vote | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
that I take lightly. I have carefully considered the arguments | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
made by the Government and ht is clear that Daesh poses a direct | :49:14. | :49:14. | |
threat to the UK. Recent attacks across the continent, | :49:15. | :49:24. | |
Turkey, Tunisia, Lebanon, the downing of the plane from Egypt and | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
the horrific attacks in Parhs show that Daesh is capable of | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
international terrorism. Cldarly it is a terrorist group which does not | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
respect borders, and the people of the UK are in their sights, too | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
Every day when I come into this House, I see the notification | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
telling me that the threat level to this country and its people is | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
severe. This means a terrorhst attack is highly likely. Indeed we | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
have heard already that sevdn terrorist plot have been fohled this | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
year, linked to or inspired by Daesh and their deadly propaganda, and I | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
pay tribute to our intelligdnce services upon whom we rely to keep | :50:08. | :50:15. | |
us safe. But as Daesh grows in strength and audacity, our security | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
is increasingly under threat. So in my view, when the UN Security | :50:21. | :50:30. | |
Council calls on their statds, we have a responsibility to answer that | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
call. Over recent months, a number of my constituents have contacted me | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
about the situation in Syri`. I recently visited the largest camp in | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
Jordan situated just 14 milds from the Syrian border. Those people in | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
those camps are living in the most basic conditions, and the only | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
desire is to go home to Syrha. Peace in the region is dependent on us | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
reaching agreements in Vienna, and the Vienna process is cruci`l, too. | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
Destroying Isil, bringing pdace to Syria and Iraq and rebuilding the | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
shattered lives of the populations will be hard, and will requhre a | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
multilayered approach by a broad coalition of nations. In my view, | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
the UK has a moral obligation to assist our allies in this fhght and | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
to ultimately help to return Syria and its people, to its people. For | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
this reason I will be supporting the Government and this motion. I have | :51:35. | :51:45. | |
looked at the Prime Minister's proposal with experts and academics. | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
I have read over 2000 communications, and on Mond`y night | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
I had a meeting in my consthtuency with over 400 people present. Over | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
99% have said no to the Prile Minister's plans. Daesh exhhbits the | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
most Venus and murderous iddology, but how will precision weapons | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
target without coordination on the ground? -- the most he hate heinous. | :52:08. | :52:26. | |
Local people work for them on the ground not because they share their | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
ideology but to save their own lives. Without forces on thd ground, | :52:30. | :52:36. | |
there will be serious casualties. We have already heard around the Free | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
Syrian Army exactly what thhs is. The Foreign Secretary came to the | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
House and said 80,000 strong on the 20th of October. The Prime Linister, | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
20,000 strong on the 26th of November. Yesterday I heard 40, 00, | :52:49. | :52:58. | |
today 15,000. The reality is they are a disparate group. We h`ve heard | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
about the shifting sands. There are many groups are coordinated under an | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
umbrella, and we do not know if they would jump to western orders. Is | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
fighting another war, a mord conventional war, will it moved to a | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
more difficult conflict to fight, in fighting a different enemy? And | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
obviously we know that they have fought to protect land against | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
Assad, and therefore will it be willing to move across the country | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
to fight in a different part of the country and give up that land which | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
it has protected and tried to gain? And therefore we have to ask those | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
questions before we proceed. To take a bit more time is not admitting | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
defeat. It is about being politicians and really scrutinising | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
what is before us. There is no lost face in stepping back in order to | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
step forward. But we also mtst listen to the people who live on the | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
ground. Who have said no also to this action. No one in this place | :54:02. | :54:08. | |
has the wisdom of Solomon, but it is clear that this strategy is weak, | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
and the sequencing wrong. I will be voting to reject this motion | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
tonight, and just ask that the Government can come back with a more | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
comprehensive ground than and therefore enable us to scrutinise | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
that, and hopefully we can love forward to a deal with Daesh and its | :54:25. | :54:34. | |
evil. Yesterday while preparing for this debate I was accused bx certain | :54:35. | :54:43. | |
people on social media. The Speaker: Order. There is quite a | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
lot of really rather disconcerting and discourteous chuntering from | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
both sides of the House, including the Foreign Secretary, whosd | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
honourable friend has the floor and who will be heard. If members wish | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
to conduct an argument, thex will do it outside the chamber, be they ever | :55:03. | :55:11. | |
so high. Let's be clear abott that. Yesterday, Mr Speaker, I was accused | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
by certain people on social media of having firstly no care for ly | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
children and second no thought for people in Syria. Nothing cotld be | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
further from the truth. Our families and our children, and those families | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
and children from the Middld East and North Africa, whether in their | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
homes or displaced, are the future of our world. We want them to play | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
and grow without fear in th`t world, to see good and beauty in it, | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
to see the point of trying to make it better. When they ask, what did I | :55:46. | :55:55. | |
do today? , I want them to know that I stood up for them. We want to make | :55:56. | :55:57. | |
life on the ground that of people, to them from indiscriminate | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
injustice, to allow humanitx, restore normal life and offdr better | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
ideas. Our involvement really can make a positive difference, and we | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
must not shirk it. Militarily, we can with more precision takdout | :56:15. | :56:22. | |
targets that threaten us. Wd are not bombing Syria in the way sole | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
allege. And diplomatically, our involvement will give us thd best | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
chance to shape efforts tow`rds a lasting political settlement. If we | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
want to be able to negotiatd sometimes very firmly as we should | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
with Russia, Iran, the Syri`n establishment and our allies in the | :56:43. | :56:44. | |
Gulf states and beyond, we have to be credible. We can't expect to have | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
influence with them, to shape our world, if we are an willing to use | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
the powers we have when askdd to make the transitions to a political | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
solution less painful than they otherwise might be. We want the | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
civil war in Syria to end, `nd hope to return. I am persuaded that there | :57:04. | :57:11. | |
is right here in Vienna a fhrm diplomatic strategy backed by action | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
tonight. A real chance that we can help that happened politically, and | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
I want to commend what is in fact a comprehensive strategy to the House. | :57:23. | :57:30. | |
Mr Speaker, I will be voting against the Government tonight, but I will | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
not be doing so with any certainty in my mind that what I'm is correct. | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
I envy all those members of the House that are certain about what | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
the right decision is to do today. I envy those people who contacted me | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
on Twitter. I envy my consthtuents and party members who contacted me | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
and said that it is a no-br`iner, it is obvious. It has not been obvious | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
to me, it has been very difficult indeed. I have listened to ` number | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
of contributions from my honourable friends who will be in a different | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
lobby to me tonight, but I have agreed with a great deal thdy have | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
had to say. And in coming to the conclusion I have come to, ht has | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
been incredibly difficult, because a huge amount of the contribution that | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
has been made from honourable friends who are voting with the | :58:19. | :58:20. | |
Government with which I do `gree. I agree that there should is ` peril | :58:21. | :58:29. | |
that must be defeated. -- D`esh is a peril. They are a scourge who | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
inflict misery on huge numbdrs of Muslims, kill far more Muslhms than | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
Westerners, and I agree that we should not turn our backs lhkely | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
upon our allies and have trdmendous solidarity with the people of | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
France, upon whom such misery and carnage has been recently vhsited. I | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
agree as an internationalist it is not easy for me to turn my back on | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
that United Nations resoluthon that went through, and I agree that the | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
action being proposed tonight has a strongly call basis. So why will I | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
not be supporting it? I won't be supporting it because somethmes I | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
believe that the kindest thhng you can do as a friend is to sax to your | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
friends in their moment of torment that the direction they are taking | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
might not actually be the rdsolution to the problems that they f`ce, and | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
I think that what we have in front of us is a motion I listened with | :59:27. | :59:31. | |
great intent to the briefing that we had yesterday from the Forehgn | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
Secretary and others which H thought was incredibly professional, but it | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
was not able to answer the central point about the ground forcds, and | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
when people say, we are doing it in Iraq, why not in Syria, the answer | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
is in Iraq we're doing it at the request with the Iraqi government | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
with the support of Iraqi ground forces, and the political process, | :59:54. | :59:55. | |
the fledgling process that finally has nations working together must be | :59:56. | :00:02. | |
given a chance to work, bec`use if we have that international | :00:03. | :00:05. | |
transition plan, if it actu`lly starts to lead to something which at | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
this fledgling stage it possibly could do, then we have a possibility | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
that these ground forces will turn away from Assad and towards Isil, | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
and then we have the potenthal that the actions we take will actually | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
deliver what we had all desperately wanted which is the end of Hsil and | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
a better and more promising future for the people of Syria. | :00:25. | :00:32. | |
Mr Speaker, there can be no grave or more serious topic for us in this | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
House to debate than the usd of military force, and I have had much | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
correspondence from my constituents, and I have re`d every | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
bit of it. I listened to wh`t my honourable friend from Yeovhl had to | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
say earlier. We are asking xoung men and women to go and fight and | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
potentially die was the eng`ging in the use of force in another land. I | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
know the Prime Minister and Government have set out serhous and | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
powerful arguments for air strikes on Daesh, and they have been clear | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
in this motion that they will be targeting Daesh exclusively. Equally | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
I have heard some thoughtful, sincere and indeed forensic | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
arguments were members of both sides of this debate. There are m`ny | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
questions, and the answers need to be crystal clear. We cannot make the | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
mistakes of the past by failing to have a handful of sects and | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
ethnicities. We would be doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past The | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
consequences of the past ard deeply rooted in a lot of the war hs taking | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
place in the region today. Hn numerous reports of people who have | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
escaped the regime of Daesh, it seems the state would project is | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
failing. We must ask ourselves, will British air strikes help th`t | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
efforts to eventually weaken and bring about the destruction of Daesh | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
in their strongholds? So our intelligence must be accurate. And | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
we must ensure that our allhes in the Middle East are playing their | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
part. According to a Departlent of Defence official in the United | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
States, Saudi Arabia have not flown omission in three months, Jordan for | :02:20. | :02:30. | |
months, UAE nine months. Mr Speaker, I will just turn to my decision my | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
vote on this issue. I'm surd we all feel the weight of history, and | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
understand the position that others have had to vote on issues of war in | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
this House have felt. There can never be absolute certainty on the | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
outcome of action, despite the fact that we are all certain abott the | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
need to destroy Daesh. Therd are dangers in acting and in not acting, | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
and I quote former US president Dwight Eisenhower. Neither ` wise | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
train of the future to run over him. I don't profess to be wise or brave, | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
but I do support the Governlent in this. The reality is, do we wait for | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
a Paris situation to happen here, or do we act now? We act now. Thank | :03:15. | :03:23. | |
you, Mr Speaker. May I begin by congratulating the work dond by the | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
Foreign Affairs Committee in producing this excellent and | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
thoughtful report, and may H also commend the report to any honourable | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
member who hasn't had a chance to read it? I hope that the Prhme | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
Minister also takes cognizance of the fact that the Foreign Affairs | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
Committee, when they reportdd last night, they said they were not | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
adequately convinced that the concerns contained in their report | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
had been met. And the Foreign Affairs Committee, the forehgn | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
affairs report, just three or four weeks ago said that the | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
extraordinary complexity of the situation on the ground meant that | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
there were few reliable counterparts, and that therd | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
appeared little chance of a legitimate functioning ally in | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
urgent from in the chaos anx time soon. -- emerging from the chaos. | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
Now miraculously we are expdcted to believe that there are some 70, 00 | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
moderate troops ready to fight on our behalf. I will give way. | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
I'm grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. As much as being | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
said about the professionalhsm and dedication of our armed servicemen | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
and women, do they not have the right to know who they will be | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
fighting alongside in any conflict they are set to take part in? I | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
absolutely agree with my honourable friend. One can only conclude that | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
this 70,000 figure has been a convenient arithmetical cre`tion. I | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
will come to you in a moment. That adds together a multitude of people | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
from different cultures, different factions and with widely differing | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
ambitions for the future of Syria. I agree that one should be told who | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
exactly they are. I fear th`t the 70,000 figure, this claim, will | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
define this Prime Minister's tried formula tree intervention in the | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
Middle East in the same way that the claim of being just 45 men hs from | :05:30. | :05:38. | |
attack has defined a previots Prime Minister's earlier misadventures in | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
the Middle East. I'm grateftl to the honourable gentleman for giving way. | :05:44. | :05:52. | |
Can I draw his attention not only to the Prime Minister's statemdnt but | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
he might want to look at Ch`rles Lister's work, a visiting fdllow who | :05:57. | :06:06. | |
has written about the 75,000, breaking them down reasonably | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
accurately. I suggest he looks at that. The key issue here is the | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
change over the last month `t Vienna. Mr Speaker, I do colmend the | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
report, I think it is a first-class piece of work. The report also said | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
that any involvement in air strikes from the UK would be unlikely to be | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
a war winning intervention. Sir Simon said that this is not a war | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
winning air campaign by any stretch of the imagination. Even thd most | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
enthusiastic cheerleader for UK air strikes in Syria has to agrde that | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
very few planes would actually be involved and our contribution would | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
be extremely small. But at the same time, the Prime Minister was telling | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
us that a major military part of the argument for air strikes was that we | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
had a unique contribution to make. That unique contribution was a | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
Brimstone missile. The Primd Minister himself went on thd record | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
as saying that UK Brimstone missile is worth a unique asset that the UK | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
had to bring and they would be lobbied by coalition partners in | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
order to bring that to the theatre. But as I pointed out to the Prime | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
Minister, the Royal Saudi Arabian air force have been using Brimstone | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
missiles since February this year and I asked specifically about the | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
question. Mr Speaker, let's be honest, the UK Government's desire | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
to take part in the bombing of Syria is less of a military contrhbution | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
and more of a political statement. The Government has felt left on the | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
sidelines since 2013 and has been itching to get a piece of the | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
action. So much of the UK's thinking, this is more to do with | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
how the UK looks at other pdople than it does asking what good we can | :08:03. | :08:12. | |
do. Mr Speaker, decades of lilitary intervention in the Middle Dast and | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
we do not have a success to show. Mr Speaker, there are more than enough | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
people dropping bombs on Syria. We do not have to add to the chaos and | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
the misery and the inevitable civilian casualties by adding to | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
that. Yes Daesh are evil and yes they have to be defeated and yes we | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
have a contribution to make, but dropping bombs from 34,000 feet is | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
not the way to do it. Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past let | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
us embark on and other -- ldt us not embark on another Middle East | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
misadventure and have a credible plan for security for Syria. Thank | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
you Mr Speaker. A pleasure to have a chance to speak straight after the | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
Right Honourable member for Argyll and Bute, who, after giving us a | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
range of problems, seems to be somewhat lacking on potenti`l | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
solutions. The 1 thing I agree with the SNP benches on is the idea that | :09:21. | :09:30. | |
we call them Daesh. They ard neither true to his lamb nor a recognised | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
state and we should not givd them that credence. But this is not about | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
making some political statelent If there is a statement to be lade it | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
is about the fact that when one of our allies is attacked we whll come | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
to their aid. The bedrock of our defence is Article five of the north | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
Atlantic to the, the Nato treaty, the SNP still want to be part of and | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
that is the mutual offence that an attack in Europe we respond to. I | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
will happily take an intervdntion. He mentions the solidarity that one | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
must show with our allies btt would he apply that to the Kurds `nd our | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
Nato allies in Turkey? We stood with the Kurds, a era go this parliament | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
voted to intervene when the murderous thugs of Daesh were on | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
their way to overrun the Kurdish autonomous region and weak xet have | :10:22. | :10:30. | |
had a massacre in this centtry. This party and to be fair other parties | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
wanted to do something. Somd of the arguments we have heard so far this | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
afternoon made the case that you pull away the spot -- the ahr | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
support that has helped keep Daesh from massacring the Kurds. For me in | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
approaching this motion, I `sked myself two questions. The fhrst was | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
what specific objectives we have for our involvement, along with allies, | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
and is there a clear legal basis for the action. The second was, what | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
would a post-war Syria look like? In short, who or what would be the | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
Government there and how wotld our intervention assist in bringing this | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
about? Legality is now much easier. There is a pretty clear UN Security | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
Council resolution. At that resolution not been passed, we would | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
have been hearing today abott how we needed the resolution. Now one has | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
been passed, we're hearing ht's not quite enough. The reality is no | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
resolution would be enough for some in this chamber despite the very | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
clear wording of that Securhty Council resolution. So definitely | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
legal. What are the specific objectives we have? The ulthmate | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
objective is to clear Daesh away from the territory they control | :11:43. | :11:44. | |
which gives them their base of power. It is about making stre we | :11:45. | :11:54. | |
can actually assist our allhes and wouldn't it be ludicrous whdn our | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
allies are fighting a Daesh unit, it gets to a border, an invisible line | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
in the sand that they don't recognise, and we say sorry, you | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
have gone one foot over the Syrian border, we're not going to do | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
anything. It's about being part of a coalition. It's ironic to h`ve shout | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
that we are not doing enough from one or two benches, that is an | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
argument to do more and not to do less. Coming on to the second point | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
about what will a post-war Syria look like? That is what the process | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
is there for. A negotiation to deliver a Government of stability in | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
Syria for the future. Order, stop the clock. The honourable gdntleman | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
must be heard with courtesy. I say to one honourable gentleman whose | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
loquacity has been notable today, that he is perfectly entitldd to | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
seek to intervene but he must not seek to deny that Honourabld member | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
a courteous hearing. Let's be fair and decent to each other. Mr Kevin | :12:59. | :13:07. | |
Foster. Thank you Mr Speaker. For me whatever comes out of that Vienna | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
negotiation, the 1 answer that will not come out of it is that Daesh | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
should carry on having a role in the future Government of Syria. They're | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
not going to be cleared out by just hopeful diplomacy. They're part of | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
it will be a military intervention. It is right we start of the grading | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
them now whilst we start to clear up that coalition that will cldar them | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
out permanently and not just say it is too difficult. Mr Tim Shdrman. | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
Thank you Mr Peter. -- thank you Mr Speaker. With the US | :13:39. | :13:49. | |
adding manpower and Germany and China, we need today to an list in | :13:50. | :14:00. | |
the coalition against Daesh. It is still difficult to fathom the | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
inhumanity and sheer disreg`rd for human life that Daesh show. Today we | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
condemn it to the history books and say we will not stand idly by while | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
people are killed, raped, tortured, and strike fear into the population. | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
The difference between Isil's army, they rape and murder innocent people | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
as if the only law is the l`w of the jungle. We will decide how to target | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
them through the democratic process. The decision of thhs house | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
and the way forward. Of course Mr Speaker, that is where sitthng back | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
has left us, watching the shtuation spiralling further and further out | :14:43. | :14:44. | |
of control, the law of the jungle prevailing and that spreading. The | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
time for restoring law and order was long ago. We have all seen the | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
Islamic State as confining ` horrendous caliphate to one corner | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
of the globe. We all know the consequences of appeasement go | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
beyond Europe, consequences we in Northern Ireland are only too aware | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
of. Today we have the naysaxers Nay saying intervention does not work. | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
It is clear that they already hate us, regardless of whether wd bombed | :15:21. | :15:33. | |
them or not. The fact is th`t civilians are dying en massd. There | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
is not going to be an end to civilian casualties. The only way to | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
stop civilian casualties is to eradicate the cause of such | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
casualties. To take those who are organising the attacks in Bdlgium, | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
France and elsewhere in Europe and take away their ability to darn | :15:53. | :15:53. | |
money is and that time. Mr Speaker, today this great | :15:54. | :16:09. | |
country, this great democracy, this beacon of liberty that this house | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
is, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
vote whether or not to join the coalition against Daesh. Let's put | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
Daesh out of business. A pldasure to follow the honourable gentldman from | :16:27. | :16:35. | |
Strangford. Tornado crews from my county have been flying to Hraq in | :16:36. | :16:43. | |
the past year. Today we ask question is whether we do more and the answer | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
is yes. I vote today in favour of diplomacy, in favour of united | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
resolve of the United Nations, in favour of continuous humanitarian | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
leadership, for planning, ftll stabilisation, reconstruction and | :17:00. | :16:59. | |
peace in -- peace in Syria and for extending | :17:00. | :17:09. | |
our advanced military capabhlities in a fight that is already going on, | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
in a fight in which we are `lready involved, a fight where our enemies | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
want as dead, a fight we must win for British -- to keep Brithsh | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
people safe at home and abroad and where our allies need our hdlp. It | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
is right that the Government takes domestic action which is not | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
necessarily named in this motion which goes with a coherent lilitary | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
and diplomatic action. I won't give way, I want to proceed and there are | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
a view other members who have been waiting patiently and want to come | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
in. We all know we are under threat. No action is no opthon. We | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
all know there is history bdhind and that there is risk ahead. Pdople are | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
naturally concerned that we may make things worse. Or that the ahr | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
strikes will make us more of a target here in Britain. Those | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
concerns are valid but we c`n only hope to make a safer world of | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
British children and Syrian children too to have the courage -- by having | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
the courage to defeat the evil we face. Syrians are already fleeing | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
it, and desperately. The UN is asking us to act. We must act. I'm | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
prepared to back UK action with all of its risks because I want to | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
protect civilians there, here and anywhere in the world from that | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
greater and more certain threat that they face from IS, the thre`t of | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
death, repression, torture. People rightly argue you cannot bolb and | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
ideology out of existence. That is true. That is why we need the | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
breadth of what is in the motion today. We need to ask what the | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
alternative is, to allow an ideology that recruits from its own lilitary | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
success so far to continue to do so with a headquarters and to hnvoke | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
our silence in its cause West Jamaat no. We must today back that motion, | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
Mr Speaker. My morals, Mike Puncheon is, my heart and my head sax it is | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
Parliament's duty to support the Government in the actions it must | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
take to keep British citizens safe against the active ideological | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
Eagle. It is foolhardy to f`il to take an action that would allow us | :19:16. | :19:17. | |
to do our part. Mr Speaker, my close school friend | :19:18. | :19:27. | |
James Adams was blown up on the Piccadilly line outside Russell | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
Square on the 7th of July 2005. Several of my constituents `lso lost | :19:31. | :19:40. | |
their lives. Terrorism needs to be defeated, and all of this House | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
comes together in that effort. The Prime Minister is right when he says | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
that bombing might well degrade Isil. I am with him on that. He is | :19:51. | :19:58. | |
right when he says that Daesh is a force that needs a coalition of us | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
to come together and challenge them. He is right about that. He hs right | :20:01. | :20:09. | |
also that there are moderatds on the ground that might support otr | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
efforts after there has been aerial bombing. However, on listenhng to | :20:16. | :20:25. | |
the Prime Minister, on refldcting on Turkey attacking the Russians, on | :20:26. | :20:33. | |
reflecting on this debate, H have come to the conclusion that I am not | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
able to support the Governmdnt tonight for three reasons. One is | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
aged it concerned. Having looked into the eyes of so many yotng | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
Muslim men that might be seduced by extremism, the deep concern that | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
there remains a vacuum becatse there are not sufficient of those Sunni | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
moderates on the ground. I remember this House saying that we would deal | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
with Al-Qaeda, and in dealing with Al-Qaeda, we gave way to Ishl. Given | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
there are 65 DStv which grotps, and many are jihadists, there whll be | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
extremists that come as a rdsult of this. -- there are 65 disparate | :21:20. | :21:28. | |
groups. The recent attacks were an extreme act of terror but also an | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
act of holy war, eight for ts and others to engage in that holy war. | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
We must tread very, very gently over the coming days and months, it seems | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
to me. If the Prime Minister had come to this House committed to | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
ground troops, and I know no one would put boots on the ground, but I | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
say this, we cannot continud simply to expect aerial bombardment to do | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
the job. It has become the blanket of the West, and actually the truth | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
is civilians will die. Coushns, brothers, sisters will die, and | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
there will be a new generathon of extremists that, in that vacuum | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
That is why unfortunately I am not repaired to put my name to the | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
Government motion. Mr Speaker, had I been a melber of | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
this House in 2003, I would have voted against the Iraq war. Had I | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
been a member of this House on the last vote in Syria, I would have | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
opposed the Government as wdll, so I don't stand here today is a | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
warmonger or somebody who rdvels in military action. I stand here to say | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
-- today as a pragmatist who has listened to what the French bench -- | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
the front bench has said, and I will support the Government this evening. | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
It would have been in the spirit of honest politics, more honest, if the | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
leader of the Labour Party had come to this House and put up his hand | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
and said, I am a committed pacifist of long-standing and conviction | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
instead of trying to hide bdhind artificial barriers and tests. Mr | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
Speaker, his silence on the subject of our activity in Iraq, and his | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
absence of any support for our military personnel there spoke | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
volumes. It was deafening, `nd the House heard it. But last night, Mr | :23:36. | :23:43. | |
Speaker, I spent a very ple`sant half an hour talking to four of the | :23:44. | :23:45. | |
anti-war protesters outside this House. A taxi driver, a teacher a | :23:46. | :23:54. | |
charity worker and a tour gtide And they asked me why I was vothng in | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
favour, and I will tell you why This is not a war. This is ` | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
recalibration and extension of an existing operation. There are | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
civilian casualties now, and we cannot sit idly by. We have to have | :24:11. | :24:18. | |
an element of trust in thosd who can see the security documents `nd are | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
convinced by them. And also, Mr Speaker, we cannot rely continually | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
on our security services to be 00% right 100% of the time. I whll give | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
way. I am grateful to him forgiving way. Will he agree with me that | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
there is a threat, a current, present danger to this country now, | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
and it is only thanks to our security services that it h`sn't | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
been realised, and we need to recognise that threat now. Ly | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
honourable friend is absolutely right. And a number of honotrable | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
members on all sides of the House. And I agree with the honour`ble | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
gentleman from Chesterfield. There is no certainty in this, and all of | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
us have come under a huge alount of pressure from constituents. 90% of | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
mine who have e-mailed are opposed. But I rely on Edmund Byrne who | :25:11. | :25:18. | |
wrote... THE SPEAKER: Order! Let's hdar what | :25:19. | :25:28. | |
he said! Your representative, ie your member | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
of Parliament, owes you not his industry only but his judgmdnt. And | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your ophnion. We | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
are here to exercise our judgment, and in my judgment, the wording of | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
the opposition, of the motion, sorry, covers all of the bases, all | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
of the challenges, all of the tests that members of this House have set | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
the Prime Minister. Mr Speaker, we are not the policemen of thd world, | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
but we find nothing splendid in isolation. What we do reflect upon | :26:06. | :26:13. | |
our values, and the values that we place on our strategic and political | :26:14. | :26:23. | |
partners. Je suis Paris has to be more than a political tag, ht is | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
time to action. Thank you, Lr Speaker. As a number of my | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
honourable friend is on these benches have said, this is the first | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
time we have had to take such a serious decision, and it is not one | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
that we take lightly. We do not ask the question of whether or not we | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
should tackle Daesh, but wh`t is the most effective means of doing so. I | :26:44. | :26:52. | |
will give way very quickly. The right member made a point e`rlier | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
today about Daesh. Does my honourable friend agree with me | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
there has been a lack of discussion from the Government about how to | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
choke off the money is suppliers propaganda? That is something picked | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
up in the foreign affairs rdport. But first I want to touch upon this. | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
When we think about how we vote tonight, we think about the lessons | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
we have learned, and I respdct everybody in this House reg`rdless | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
of which lobby they go throtgh tonight. We learn from the fact of | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
Libya, and that we spent ?320 million bomb in the country, and | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
millions of pounds in reconstruction. And we learned from | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
catastrophic failure of post-conflict reconstruction in Iraq | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
that led to the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives of the political | :27:40. | :27:41. | |
vacuum in that country that has led to many of the problems that we see | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
today for the Mr Speaker, it has been a privilege for me to sit on | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
the Foreign Affairs Committde, and I pay particular credit to thd | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
chairman. We will go through different lobbies tonight, but I pay | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
credit to his work. I also pay credit to the members for Ilford | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
South and, and I'm sure all members will join me in wishing thel a | :28:04. | :28:11. | |
speedy recovery. Mr Speaker, I hope you won't mind saying, you have | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
about half an hour to read this you could skim read it, I would | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
thoroughly recommend it. It sets a series of recommendations and is | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
based on evidence, and I wotld thoroughly recommend it. | :28:23. | :28:31. | |
Does he agree with me that the strategy according to the Prime | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
Minister's statement last wdek is about a new Syrian government, but | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
given that there is real dotbt about regime change, this is very | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
unclear? We have not seen enough on the forward planning, and wd have | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
not seen enough on the long,term planning, and that is a cause of | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
concern for me and other melbers from the House. We need grotnd | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
troops, but we have not heard enough on how we have got them. Whdre did | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
the 70,000 come from? I raised this with the Foreign Secretary back in | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
July, and this was something that... | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
THE SPEAKER: The honourable gentleman has the floor. It would be | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
a courtesy Iffy Onuora will gentleman would respect my wish to | :29:13. | :29:23. | |
allow others to ration it would be a courtesy if the gentleman would | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
respect my wish to only be `nother 30 seconds. We don't want to fight a | :29:28. | :29:38. | |
current war like a past war. I pay credit to members across thd House, | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
and we want the same thing, which is to put an end to Daesh for good It | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
is my view that taking the same old route into bombing without ` | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
long-term strategy will onlx lead to failure, and that is why I will be | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
backing the multiparty amendment tonight. | :29:56. | :30:03. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. May H say it has been a privilege to be ` | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
parliamentarian today listening to some fantastic contributions from | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
across the entire house. Only a few weeks ago, one of Britain's's key | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
allies was attacked by an unprecedented enemy. For centuries, | :30:18. | :30:25. | |
Britain has taken the lead hn fighting tyranny and promothng | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
democracy around the world. Daesh is the antithesis to everything we hold | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
dear, and they must be stopped. Time is now to stand firm against our | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
enemies. We cannot delay anx further or risk people being killed in | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
streets. For those people that have contacted me to say that our streets | :30:42. | :30:43. | |
are safer by saying out of the conflict, I feel they have only had | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
part of the explanation. Dadsh will not think twice about slaughtering | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
our citizens in the UK. Thex believe that our culture, our society and | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
read things we believe it should be crushed. Even though we havd no | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
military intervention in Syria currently, Daesh will still be | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
threatening attacks on our country every civil day. Following this | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
debate and listening to contributions across the Hotse, I | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
reassured for the need for `ir strikes in Syria, especiallx as we | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
have the position technologx available to us that will rdduce the | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
number of civilian casualtids. Whilst we obviously cannot talk | :31:20. | :31:21. | |
about particular intelligence, it is clear that Daesh headquarters in | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
Raqqa is tweeting tens of thousands of messages a day in dozens of | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
different languages, and we need to stop this. When asked whethdr or not | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
this will encourage Daesh to attack us, it is clear we need to take out | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
their recruitment operations, promoting jihad around the rest of | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
the world. One of the key concerns I have that Isil may grow up | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
elsewhere, and in order to stop this from happening, we need to grow very | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
strong brand strategies. Thhs cannot be rushed, but it also cannot be | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
delayed. Daesh are looking `t targets all the time. The atrocities | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
in Paris could just as easily have been a London, and that are | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
dangerous and we should stop -- start taking the fight to them. Mr | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
Speaker, I conclude in brevhty as I have started. When one of otr key | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
allies have been attacked, our freedoms, liberties are at risk | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
When women are raped, children killed, gay people thrown off roofs | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
and Christians decapitated, can we seriously stand by and watch? We | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
absolutely have to act now. We have a decent diplomatic solution, a | :32:31. | :32:32. | |
strong international aid pl`n, and the opposition forces desperately | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
need respite from being att`cked on two fronts. I will not shy `way from | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
my cause for a stronger diplomatic strategy, but this should bd at the | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
same time as an aerial strategy in Syria. I will be voting in favour of | :32:47. | :32:55. | |
military action this evening. Mr Speaker, I will be not be voting | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
with the Government tonight, but I want to get on record that H | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
unequivocally condemn those people who have been intimidating lembers | :33:02. | :33:09. | |
of this House in the vote tonight. I know that honourable members weigh | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
these issues are very heavily, and whatever side of the argument they | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
come from, I absolutely givd them my full respect. Mr Speaker, I have not | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
been convinced by the Government about the presence of 70,000 | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
moderate free Iraqi army forces on the ground. I think the Govdrnment | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
has failed to make the case that they exist. They are made up of a | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
number of whisper at groups -- desperate groups, some of sdveral | :33:41. | :33:42. | |
thousand soldiers, some of just a few hundred. Unfortunately, the | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
Government has also failed to make the case about the political site. | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
One of the issues the Government did not address was the treatment of the | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
Sunni majority in Iraq and the need to address that issue, becatse that | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
will fundamentally undermind the future of Daesh more than any | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
bombing campaign, and a bombing campaign without troops on the | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
ground will not be effectivd. The Government has completely f`iled to | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
make that case, and that is why I can't support them tonight. | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
Mr Hilary Benn. Thank you, thank you very mtch, Mr | :34:18. | :34:28. | |
Speaker. Before I respond to the debate, I would like to say this | :34:29. | :34:37. | |
directly to the Prime Minister. Although my right honourabld friend, | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
the Leader of the Opposition and I will walk into different division | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
lobbies tonight, I am proud to speak from the same dispatch box `s him. | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
My right honourable friend hs not a terrorist sympathiser. He is an | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
honest, a principled, a decdnt and a good man. And I think the Prime | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
Minister must now regret wh`t he said yesterday, and his failure to | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
do what he should have done today, which is simply to say, I al sorry. | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
Mr Speaker, we have had an hntense and impassioned debate, and rightly | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
so, given the clear and present threat from Daesh. The gravhty of | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
the decision that rests upon the shoulders and the consciencd of | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
every single one of us, and the lives that we hold in our h`nds | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
tonight. Whatever decision we reach, I hope we will treat one another | :35:32. | :35:39. | |
with respect. We have heard a number of outstanding speeches and sadly | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
time will prevent me from acknowledging them all. I would like | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
to single out the contributhons both for and against the motion. From my | :35:47. | :35:57. | |
honourable and right honour`ble friends, Barnsley Central, | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
Wakefield, Wolverhampton Sotth East, Brent North, Liverpool West, | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
Derby, Wirral West, Stoke-on-Trent North, Birmingham Ladywood `nd the | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
honourable members for Reig`te, South West Wiltshire, Tonbrhdge and | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
moorland, Chichester and Wells. The question which confronts us in a | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
very complex conflict is at its heart very simple. What shotld we do | :36:23. | :36:30. | |
with others to confront this threat to our citizens, our nation, other | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
nations and the people who suffer under the cruel yoke of Daesh? The | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
carnage in Paris brought hole to ask the clear and present danger we face | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
from them. It could just as easily have been London or Glasgow or Leeds | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
or Birmingham, and it could still be. And I believe that we h`ve a | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
moral and practical duty to extend the action we are already t`king in | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
Iraq to Syria. And I am all so clear and I say this to my colleagues | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
that the conditions set out in the urgency resolution passed at the | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
Labour Party conference in September have been met. We now have ` clear | :37:12. | :37:21. | |
and unambiguous UN Security Council resolution 2249, paragraph five of | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
which specifically calls on member states to take all necessarx | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
measures, to redouble and coordinate their effort to prevent and suppress | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
terrorist acts committed explicitly by Isil and to eradicate thd safe | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria. | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
So the United Nations is asking us to do something. It is asking us to | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
do something now. It is askhng us to act in Syria as well as in Hraq It | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
was a Labour government, if the honourable gentleman would bear with | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
me. It was a Labour governmdnt that helped to found the United Nations | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
at the end of the Second World War. Why did we do so? Because wd wanted | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
the nations of the world working together, to deal with thre`ts to | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
international peace and sectrity and Daesh is unquestionably that. So | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
given that the United Nations has passed this resolution, givdn that | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
such action would be lawful under Article 51 of the UN Charter, | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
because every state has the right to defend itself, why would we not | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
uphold the settled will of the United Nations, particularlx when | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
there is such support from within the region, including from Hraq We | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
are part of a coalition of over 60 countries standing together shoulder | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
to shoulder, to oppose their ideology and their brutalitx. Mr | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
Speaker, all of us understand the importance of bringing an end to the | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
Syrian Civil War, and there is now some progress on a peace pl`n | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
because of the Vienna talks. They are the best hope we have of | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
achieving a ceasefire. That would bring an end to Assad's bombing | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
leading to a transitional government and elections. Why is that vital? | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
Both because it would help hn the defeat of Daesh and because it would | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
enable millions of Syrians, who have been forced to flee, to do what | :39:22. | :39:31. | |
every refugee dreams of. Thdy just want to be able to go home. Mr | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
Speaker, no one in this deb`te doubts the deadly serious threat we | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
face from Daesh and what thdy do although sometimes we find ht hard | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
to live with the reality. Wd know that in June four gay men wdre | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
thrown off the fifth story of the building in Assyrian city -, a | :39:51. | :39:59. | |
Syrian city. We know in Augtst, the 82-year-old guardian of the | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
antiquities of Palmyra was beheaded and his headless body was htng from | :40:05. | :40:11. | |
a traffic light. And we know that in recent weeks there has been the | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
discovery of mass graves in Sinjar, once said to contain the bodies of | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
older Yazidi women murdered Daesh because they were judged to old to | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
be sold for sex. We know thdy have killed 30 British tourists hn | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
Tunisia, 224 Russian holidax-makers on a plane, 178 people in sticide | :40:33. | :40:41. | |
bombings in Beirut, Ankara `nd 30 people in Paris, including the young | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
people in the Bataclan, whol Daesh, in trying to justify their bloody | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
slaughter called them apost`tes engaged in prostitution and vice. If | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
it had happened here, they could have been our children, and we know | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
they are plotting more attacks. So the question for each of us, and our | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
national security is this: Given that we know what they are doing, | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
can we really stand aside and refuse to act fully in our self defence | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
against those who are plannhng these attacks? Can we really leavd to | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
others the responsibility for defending our national security when | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
it is our responsibility? And if we do not act, what message wotld that | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
send about our solidarity whth those countries that have suffered so | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
much, including Iraq and our ally France? Now France wants us to stand | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
with them, and President Hollande, the leader of our sister Socialist | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
party has asked for our asshstance and help. And as we are unddrtaking | :41:53. | :42:01. | |
air strikes in Iraq where D`esh s hold has been reduced, and we are | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
already doing everything but engaging air strikes in Syrha, | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
should we not play our full part? Mr Speaker, it has been argued in the | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
debate that air strikes achheve nothing. Not so. Look at how | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
Daesh's forward march has bden halted in Iraq. The House whll | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
remember that 40 months ago people were saying, they are almost at the | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
gates of Baghdad and that is why we voted to respond to the Irapi | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
government's request for help to defeat them. Look at how thdir | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
military capacity and freedom of movement has been put under | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
pressure. Ask the Kurds abott Sinjar and Kobane. Of course, air strikes | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
alone will not defeat Daesh. But they make a difference. Bec`use they | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
are giving them a hard time and it is making it more difficult for them | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
to expand their territory. H share the concerns that have been | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
expressed this evening about potential civilian casualtids. | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
However, unlike Daesh, none of us today act with the intent to harm | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
civilians. Rather, we act to protect civilians from Daesh. They target | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
innocent people. On the subject of ground troops to defeat Daesh, there | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
has been much debate about the figure of 70,000, and the Government | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
must I think better explain that. But we know most of them ard | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
apparently engaged in fighthng President Assad, but I tell you what | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
else we know. Whatever the number, 70,000, 40,000, 80,000, the current | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
side of the opposition forcds mean the longer we leave taking `ction, | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
the longer Daesh will have two decrease that number. And so to | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
suggest, Mr Speaker, that ahr strikes should not take place until | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
the Syrian Civil War comes to an end, is I think to miss the urgency | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
of the terrorist threat that Daesh poses to us and others, and I think | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
misunderstands the nature and objectives of the extension to air | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
strikes that is being proposed. Of course we should take action. It is | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
not a contradiction between the two to cut off Daesh's support hn the | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
form of money and fighters `nd weapons, and of course we should | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
give humanitarian aid, and of course we should offer shelter to lore | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
refugees including in this country and yes, we should commit to play | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
our full part in helping to rebuild Syria win the war is over. Now, I | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
accept that there are legithmate arguments and we have heard that in | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
the debate, for not taking this form of action now. It is also clear that | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
many members have wrestled, and who knows, in the time that is left may | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
still be wrestling with what the right thing to do is. But I say the | :44:58. | :45:05. | |
threat is now and there are rarely, if ever, perfect circumstances in | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
which to deploy military forces We had very powerful testimony from the | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
Honourable member for a discreet earlier when she quoted that | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
passage. I just want to read what the Kurdistan regional government | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
high representative in London said last week and I quote: Last June, | :45:27. | :45:34. | |
Daesh captured one third of Iraq overnight and a few months later | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
attacked the Kurdistan region. Swift air strikes by Britain, America and | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
France, and the actions of our own Peshmerga saved us. We now have a | :45:46. | :45:53. | |
border of 650 miles with Dadsh. We have pushed them back and rdcently | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
captured Sinjar. Again, Western air strikes were vital. But the old | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
border with Iraq and Syria does not exist. Daesh fighters come `nd go | :46:08. | :46:15. | |
across this fictional bound`ry. That is the argument, Mr Speaker, for | :46:16. | :46:22. | |
treating the two countries `s one, if we are serious about defdating | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
Daesh. Mr Speaker, I hope the Housd will | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
bear with me if I direct my closing remarks to my Labour friends and | :46:33. | :46:34. | |
colleagues on this side of the House. As a party, we have `lways | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
been defined by our international is. We believe we have a | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
responsibility one to anothdr. We never have and we never shotld walk | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
by on the other side of the road. And we are here faced by fascists. | :46:51. | :46:59. | |
Not just their calculated brutality, but their belief that they `re | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
superior to every single ond of us in this chamber tonight, and all of | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
the people that we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold our | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
values in contempt. They hold our belief in decency in contempt. They | :47:14. | :47:21. | |
hold our democracy in contelpt. And what we know about fascists is they | :47:22. | :47:29. | |
need to be defeated. And it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialists | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
and trade unionists and othdrs joined the International Brhgade in | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
the 1930s to fight against Franco. It is why this entire house stood up | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
against Hitler and Mussolinh. It is why our party has always stood up | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
against the Delisle of human rights and for justice -- the deni`l of | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
human rights. My view is we must now confront this evil. It is now time | :47:58. | :48:05. | |
for us to do our bit in Syrha. And that is why I ask my colleagues to | :48:06. | :48:07. | |
vote for this motion tonight. APPLAUSE | :48:08. | :48:49. | |
THE SPEAKER: I call the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth. | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
Philip Hammond. Mr Speaker, I congratulate the right | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
honourable member for Leeds Central on outstanding case for the motion | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
tonight. That the will go down as one of the truly great speeches made | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
in this House of Commons. Mr Speaker, the proposal beford the | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
House is clear, it is simpld and it is specific. To extend the `ir | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
strikes, we are already carrying out against Isil in Iraq, across a | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
border they themselves do not recognise, into their heartland in | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
Syria. The Prime Minister sdt out the compelling arguments in favour | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
of taking this action as part of a comprehensive strategy for Syria. In | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
response, the Leader of the Opposition set out his well,known | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
and well-understood principled objections to military intervention. | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
Objections he has developed over many years and which are obviously | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
sincerely held. I respect those objections as such, although I | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
believe them to be profoundly misguided. But it is clear, Mr | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
Speaker from the Shadow Fordign Secretary's speech from the speeches | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
69 of the right honourable lember for Derby South and Kington | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
responsible Hull West and m`ny other members on the benches opposite -- | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
Kingston upon Hull, that for many, the real issue of consciencd at | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
stake here is our obligation to act in the best interest of the UK and | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
for the protection of British citizens. Mr Speaker, to me, one of | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
the most interesting parts of the Leader of the Opposition's speech | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
was his repeated refusal to confirm that it is his party's policy to | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
support the current action hn Iraq, that this House voted overwhelmingly | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
for in September 2014. Not only is he opposed to extending | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
action to protect Britain against Daesh, but we have to assumd, from | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
his silence, that he wants to roll back the action we are taking now in | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
Iraq, to protect the Kurds, the Yazidis and others and to stpport | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
the steady erosion of Isil control by the Iraqi security forces and the | :51:04. | :51:10. | |
Peshmerga. I ask him, I ask the party opposite - is that now the | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
position of the Labour Partx, despite... | :51:14. | :51:22. | |
Despite its long and honour`ble tradition of fighting what The Right | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
Honourable member for Leeds Central himself has described as fascism. I | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
hope we'll have a confirmathon, Mr Speaker, as soon as possibld, that | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
the Labour Party remains colmitted to the current action in Ir`q. Mr | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
Speaker, I won't, I'm afraid because time is very short. Mr Speaker, | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
today I believe we have seen this House at its best. 104 membdrs in | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
total have spoken. We have heard forensic analysis and we've heard | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
passionate conviction. I thhnk we can collectively be satisfidd that, | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
as a House, we have done justice to the gravity of the subject we are | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
debating. And with so many contributions and | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
only a few minutes remaining, I hope honourable and right honour`ble | :52:09. | :52:10. | |
members will forgive me if H don't try to acknowledge them all | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
individually but I will do ly best to try to address the princhpal | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
theme and questions that have arisen during this debate. I think one of | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
the key issues that is clearly come out is a need to understand what is | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
the military plan, and who hs going to deliver it? I have to sax, Mr | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
Speaker, there appears to bd some confusion about this. Let md try to | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
clarify it. We are all agredd n this House, that air strikes -- hn this | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
House, that air strikes alone will not finish Isil. But air strikes | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
will deliver immediate benefit. They will reduce Isil's external attacks, | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
planning capability, making Britain safer and they will, over thme, | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
degrade Isil and force a ch`nge in its behaviour. But they will not, | :52:57. | :53:03. | |
alone, create a vacuum. And honourable members, during the | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
course of this debate, some have sought to have it both ways. Bombing | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
Isil in Raqqa won't make a difference, and at the same time, | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
bombing Isil in Raqqa will immediately create a power vacuum. | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
Ultimately Mr Speaker there will need to be a ground assault on | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
Raqqa, supported by continudd air strikes. But as The Right Honourable | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
lady from Pontefract observdd, that won't come in day or weeks, that | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
will s come in months, perh`ps even years. That will be before ht | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
begins, never mind before it ends. We've had questions about ground | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
forces. Where are the ground forces going to come from? The context of | :53:46. | :53:53. | |
this is a comprehensive str`tegy, a military track against Isil and a | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
political track against Ass`d and the time for retaking Isil's | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
heartland in Syria will be when the civil war has ended, a transitional | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
government is in place and when the world can then, once again, support | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
the Syrian government. So that the Syrian Army, the Syrian opposition | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
force, the Kurdish forces, can turn their guns on Isil, liberathng their | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
own country this evil organhsation. Supported by the coalition, with | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
weapons w training, with technical support -- with training, tdchnical | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
support, intelligence and ahrpower. Mr Speaker much has been made during | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
the course of the debate about the number of opposition fighters | :54:42. | :54:43. | |
available to join in that effort. The number of 70,000 is a ntmber | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
produced by the Joint Intelligence Committee. It is a number | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
corroborated by the evidencd of our US allies. But the situation on the | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
ground is complex. There is a spectrum of views included hn that | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
70,000-strong force. Yes, it includes a large element of | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
secularists, who have views that we would recognise as democrathc. And | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
yes, it also includes Islamhsts But there are Islamists in the | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
Parliaments of cue want Tunhsia We can work -- of Kuwait and Ttnisia. | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
We can work with Islamists who accept the democratic process and | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
are prepared to take part in it The second issue that has arisen during | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
the course of this debate is a question about the overall strategy. | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
The Prime Minister was absolutely clear that military action hs just | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
one part of a comprehensive strategy there. Has to be a political track | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
and there has to be a humanhtarian track. It is clear that we have to | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
pursue the political track hn parallel with the military. It is | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
the only way to end the civhl war in Syria, and bring about the defeat of | :55:58. | :56:09. | |
Isil. Now we have an intern`tional Syria Support Group, the Vidnna | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
group. That's a major changd, bringing together all the | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
international players behind a common vision to end the war, | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
including Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, as well as the US, TK, | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
France, Turkey and China. For the first time, all these countries have | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
accepted the need for Syrian-led, Syrian-owned, political transition, | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
based on the Geneva principles, a transition that will leave the | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
institutions of the state in tact, avoiding the mistakes that were made | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
in Iraq. Now, of course differences remain between the parties, | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
particularly about how Assad will transition out. But, they h`ve | :56:51. | :56:58. | |
agreed together a time framd for political negotiations, including | :56:59. | :57:00. | |
transitional government within six months and a new constitution and | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
free and fair elections within 8 months. And Mr Speaker, I know that | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
there are those who question the commitment of the United St`tes or | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
the engagement of Russia in this process. So I want, if I max, to | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
quote from a letter that I have received this morning from the | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
United States' Secretary of State, John Kerry. He says, "The United | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
States has long-believed th`t while military action can reinforce | :57:30. | :57:31. | |
diplomacy, there can be no lilitary solution to the civil war in Syria. | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
We have to pursue a politic`l track. And at the same time, there can be | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
no political deal with Daesh. They have to be degraded by military | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
force." He goes on to say, Lr Speaker, "The Vienna process | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
presents the best nunt four years for an a-- the best opportunity in | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
four years to establish a cdasefire and create a political procdss, | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
leading to a new constitution and democratic elections." Importantly, | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
he concludes by telling me this "Senior Russian officials h`ve | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
helped lead the effort to fhnd a common way forward and have | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
expressed firm commitment to the Geneva principles. Russian leaders | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
have indicated both publiclx and privately, on numerous occasions, | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
that they are open to a polhtical transition, including a new | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
constitution and elections." Mr Speaker, the third issue that has | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
come up several times during the course of today has been thd | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
question of whether air strhkes will make a difference. The right | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
honourable member for Leeds Central and several other members h`ve made | :58:40. | :58:47. | |
the point that they have bedn effective in halting the prdsited | :58:48. | :58:53. | |
advance of Daesh in Iraq last year and are now contributing to the | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
eroded positions of Daesh in Iraq. The UK already provides a | :58:58. | :58:59. | |
significant element of the high precision strike available to the | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
coalition. And that high prdcision strike will be vital it the campaign | :59:05. | :59:11. | |
in Raqqa. The honourable melber for Birmingham Northfeel asked `bout | :59:12. | :59:13. | |
rules of engagement. They are classified but I can tell hhm the | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
UK's rules of engagement ard among the most rezwrifct in the world but | :59:19. | :59:27. | |
bringing British discipline, skills and weapons to bear will save lives | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
as we prosecute this campaign. We'll minimise civilian casualties. Mr | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
Speaker, there is no military logic and no moral logic to prosecuting | :59:38. | :59:42. | |
Isil in Iraq but not targethng its HQ in Syria. | :59:43. | :59:54. | |
And finally, Mr THE and fin`l poly-Mr Speaker, will Britahn taking | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
part in air strikes increasd the threat to our security? In 2014 | :59:58. | :00:03. | |
there were 15 Isil external attack plans. In this year so far there | :00:04. | :00:11. | |
have been 150. The scale of this problem is rising compoencely. Isil | :00:12. | :00:21. | |
already -- exopentially. Ishl already poses a problem. Brhtish | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
tourists killed on the beaches in Tunisia and what could have been a | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
British plane downed over Shnai Seven plots disrupted by thd | :00:35. | :00:36. | |
Security Services in the UK in the last 12 months. The judgment of the | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
Joint Intelligence Committed and the Director-General of the Sectrity | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
Service is that the UK is already a top tier of Isil's target lhst. They | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
hate us for who we are, not for what we do. And we have to be cldar, that | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
the risks of inaction, as The Right Honourable lady for Derby South I | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
think was the first to say, the risks of inaction are far greater | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
than the risks of action. Wd have to act now to degrade this thrdat to | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
our security and we will do it by targeting their heartland and their | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
Control Centre. Mr Speaker, we are not debating | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
tonight, as some would have us believe, whether or not to go to | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
war. 15 months ago this House voted overwhelmingly to begin air strikes | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
against Isil in Iraq. The shmple question we are deciding tonight is | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
whether to extend those operations to tackle Isil in its heartland in | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
Syria, targeting the head of the snake. This is not a fight that we | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
have chosen. By the atrocithes they have committed, by the murddrous | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
regime of brutality and terror they've inflicted on the people of | :01:47. | :01:56. | |
Iraq and Syria and by their clear inp tent and capability to strike us | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
here in the UK and British citizens abroad, Isil have made that choice | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
for us. To answer the questhon for my right honourable friend for | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
gainsry, yes, they represent a direct and imminent threat to the UK | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
and British citizens. So thd decision tonight is this - do we | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
take the fight to them or do we wait for them to bring the fight to us? | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
Do we strike them in Syria, or do we wait for them to strike us on the | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
streets of London? What kind of a country would we be if we rdfused to | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
act in the face of a threat to our security, as deleer as the one that | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
Isil poses? -- as clear. Indeed Mr Speaker, what kind of a | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
country would we be, if we were unproved by the murder, the rain, | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
the beheadings and slavery that Isil imposes on its subjects. | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
And with what kind of a country would we be, if we ignored the calls | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
for help from our nearest neighbours, even as they grheve for | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
their dead? Mr Speaker, we cannot contract out responsibility for our | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
national security. We cannot rely on others to take actions to protect | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
our citizens that we are not willing to take ourselves. So, Mr Speaker, | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
the threat is clear. Our abhlity to respond to it is undoubted. The | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
moral imperative to act is compelling. The legal case to do so | :03:27. | :03:34. | |
is watertight. We do not propose military action lightly and we do | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
not propose it in isolation. We will vigorously pursuit Vienna process to | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
ceasefire, transition and a new representative government in Syria | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
and we will lead the intern`tional community in planning and ddlivering | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
post-conflict reconstruction. But let us tonight give a clear and | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
simple message to our allies, to the enemy and to the braved Armdd Forces | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
who we are asking to do the job for us -. Let us show beyond dotbt what | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
kind of a country we are, bx endorsing decisively the motion | :04:10. | :04:10. | |
before us this evening. Order. I call Mr John Baron to move | :04:11. | :04:31. | |
the amendment formerly. Movd the amendment formerly. The question is | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
that the amendment be made. As many are of the opinion say Aye. To the | :04:36. | :04:44. | |
contrary, No. Division, cle`red the lobby! | :04:45. | :05:24. | |
The question before the House today is how we keep the British people | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
safe from the threat posed by Isil. Mr Speaker, let me be clear from the | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
outset, this is not whether we want to fight terrorism. It is how best | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
we do that. I respect that people of all political colours in thhs | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
country have had to fight terrorism. I respect people who come | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
to a different view of the Government that I will set out | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
today, and those who vote accordingly. We face a fund`mental | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
threat to our security. Isil have brutally murdered British hostages. | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
They have inspired the worst terrorist attack against Brhtish | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
people since 7/7 on the beaches of Tunisia. Since November last year, | :06:09. | :06:17. | |
our security services have foiled no less than seven security plots. | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
Question is this, do we work with our allies to degrade and ddstroy | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
this threat, and do we go after these terrorists in their hdartlands | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
from where they are plotting to kill British people, or do we sit back | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
and wait for them to attack us? We have a proper motion before this | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
House and we are having a tdmplate five-hour debate today. I look | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
forward to hearing the rest of the debate. I look forward to hdaring | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
the contributions from membdrs on all sides of the House. I hope the | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
House will come together and play our part in defeating these evil | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
extremists and take action to keep this country safe. | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
Taking a decision that will put British servicemen and women in harm | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
's way, and will almost inevitably lead to the deaths of innocdnts is a | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
heavy responsibility. It must be treated with the utmost serhousness | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
and respect, given to those who make a different judgment about the right | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
course of action to take. Which is why the Prime Minister's attempt to | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
brand those who plan to votd against the Government as terrorist | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
sympathisers, both demeans the Office of the Prime Minister and, I | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
believe, undermines the serhousness of deliberations we are havhng | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
today. If the Prime Minister now wants to apologise for thosd | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
remarks, I would be happy to give way to him to do so. | :07:44. | :07:57. | |
Since, Mr Speaker, the Primd Minister is unmoved, we will have to | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
move on with the debate. It is impossible I think to avoid the | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
conclusion that the Prime Mhnister understands that public opinion is | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
moving increasingly against what I believe to be an ill thought out | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
rushed to war. He wants to hold this vote before the opinion grows even | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
further against them. Whethdr it is a lack of strategy with the name, | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
the lack of ground troops, the missing diplomatic plan for a Syrian | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
settlement, the failure to `ddress the terrorist threat, or thd refugee | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
crisis and civilian casualthes, it is becoming increasingly cldar that | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
the Prime Minister's propos`l for military action simply do not stack | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
up. There is agreement across this House | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
that the threat from Daesh hs real and doing nothing is not an option. | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
However, we recall that onlx two years ago, this Prime Minister, this | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
government, wanted us to on the opponents of Daesh, which would have | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
no doubt strengthened them. I believe the Government has not | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
answered the questions posed by the Foreign Affairs Select Commhttee, in | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
fact, neither do a majority who voted on the issue in the foreign | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
affairs committee. In the circumstances, Mr Speaker, we cannot | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
support the Government. This is not about provoking a new | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
confrontation with Daesh. They have already confronted peace and decency | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
and humanity. We have seen what they are capable of in terms of | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
beheadings, crucifixions, m`ss rape. We have seen the refugee crhsis that | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
they have provoked in the Mhddle East with its terrible human cost. | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
And we have seen their willhngness to export jihad whenever thdy are | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
willing to do so. It is also not about bombing Syria per se, as is | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
being portrayed outside. It is the extension of a military campaign | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
that we are already following in Iraq, across what is in effdct a | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
nonexistent border in the s`nd. There is absolutely no eviddnce of | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
any kind that bombing Daesh, that bombing Raqqa, will result hn an | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
upsurge of other people in the region to get rid of them. What it | :10:20. | :10:30. | |
would do, might cause some damage, it won't undermine them. Wh`t it | :10:31. | :10:38. | |
will undoubtedly do, despitd the insurances of the Prime Minhster, | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
which I am sure are given in good faith, it will kill innocent | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
civilians. And I am not going to be a party to killing innocent | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
civilians for what will simply be a gesture. | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
This is about people at war with us and our values and our socidty. This | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
is not a war of choice. I h`ven t spoken to anyone, Mr Speaker, who | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
did me is from the proposithon that Isil must be denied the territory | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
that they currently control. And while the defeat of Isil and its | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
ideology will be the work of many years and even decades, the retaking | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
of this territory is an urgdnt and immediate requirement. This, | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
therefore, is the mission. Whilst the Civil War rages in Syri`, it is | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
virtually impossible to achheve that. That is the necessary first | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
step. There are those not opposed in | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
principle of action, who dotbt the efficacy of what is opposed, | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
coalition effort which rests almost wholly on bombing, they say, will | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
have little effect. Well, tdll that to the Kosovans. And don't forget, | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
if there had been no bombing in Kosovo, perhaps a million Albanian | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
refugees would have been sedking refuge in Europe. | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
The short-term effect British air strikes will be marginal. I think | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
most people accept that. But as we intervene more, we become more | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
responsible for the events on the ground, and ourselves open to the | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
unintended consequences of the fog of war. Without a comments of | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
strategy, air strikes will simply reinforce the West's long-tdrm | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
failure in the region gener`lly at a time when there are already too | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
many aircraft chasing too fdw targets. I suggest that just as in | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
previous ill-advised western interventions, a strong pattern | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
emerges. Time and time again the executive makes a convincing case, | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
often with supporting intelligent sources, and time and time `gain it | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
is wrong. We must interrupt the umbilhcal cord | :12:58. | :13:07. | |
of Raqqa, until we can demonstrate that we can scar and Hugh Mhllett | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
Daesh, we wed be taken seriously by those who are attracted to do | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
Daesh's bidding. Fracker is its commander control. It is from there | :13:19. | :13:31. | |
it has controlled attacks in Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Afghanistan and | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
Pakistan to create and comm`nd self in Europe. | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
I could give you an dead after anecdote which would break xour | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
heart, but one in particular is a 7 -year-old lad being lifted from a | :13:45. | :13:53. | |
dinky on a beach in Lesbos, and my Arabic interpreter has just said | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
that he said, daddy, is Isil here? I cannot stand in this House `nd | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
castigate the Prime Minister for not taking enough refugees and for | :14:00. | :14:01. | |
Britain not standing as tall as it should do in the world and open its | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
arms to the desperate as we have done proudly through many, lany | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
decades in history, if we do not do everything in our power to dradicate | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
the source of people fleeing from that terror. | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
Victory means bringing together their cover, ground forces `nd | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
others. If we cannot take b`ck Mosul, how on earth can we take back | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
Raqqa in Syria? That is why I was disappointed the Prime Minister was | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
not able to specify just wh`t are the ground forces who will help us | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
take back Raqqa under the cover of the RAF. That is the differdnce | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
between Iraq and Syria. Irap there were ground forces, in Syri`, there | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
are not. I do not want a half-hearted fight, I want ` full on | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
fight. We are here faced by fascists. Not | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
just their calculated brutality but their belief that they are superior | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
to every single one of us in this chamber tonight, and all of the | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
people that we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold otr values | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
in contempt. They hold our belief intolerance and decency in contempt. | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
They hold our democracy, thd means by which we will make our ddcision | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
tonight, in contempt. What we know about fascists is they need to be | :15:23. | :15:31. | |
defeated. And it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialist and trade | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
unionists and others joined the International Brigade in thd 19 0s | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
to fight against Franco. It is why this entire House stood up `gainst | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
Hitler and Mussolini. It is why our party has always stood up against | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
the denial of human rights `nd for justice. And my view, Mr Spdaker, is | :15:52. | :15:59. | |
we must now confront this evil. It is now time for us to do our bit in | :16:00. | :16:07. | |
Syria. And that is why I ask my colleagues to vote for this motion | :16:08. | :16:08. | |
tonight. The ayes to the right, 211. | :16:09. | :18:47. | |
The noes to the left, 390. Thank you, the ayes to the right | :18:48. | :19:17. | |
211. The knows to the left, 390 So the knows sl it, the knows have it. | :19:18. | :19:25. | |
Unlock. The question is the main question as on the order paper. As | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
many are of that opinion sax aye. Of the contrary no. SHOUTS OF @YE AND | :19:33. | :19:42. | |
NO Division, clear the lobby. | :19:43. | :20:19. | |
The question before the House today is how we keep the British people | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
safe from the threat pose bhd Isil. Mr Speaker, let me be clear from the | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
outset. This is not about whether we want it fight terrorism. It is about | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
how best we do that. I expect governments of all political colours | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
in this country have had to fight terrorism and have had to t`ke the | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
people with them when they do so and I respect people who come from a | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
different view to the government and the one I'll set out today `nd those | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
who vote accordingly. We face a fundamental threat to our sdcurity. | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
Isil have brutally murdered British hostages. They have inspired the | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
worst terrorist attack against British people since 7/7 on the | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
beaches of Tunisia and they plotted atrocity after atrocity on the | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
streets here at home. Since November last year our securities services | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
have foiled no fewer than sdven different plots against our people. | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
So this threat is very real. The question is this - do we work with | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
our allies to degrade and ddstroy this threat and do we go after these | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
terrorists in their heartlands, from where they are plotting to kill | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
British people, or do we sit back and wait for them to attack us? We | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
have a proper motion before this House and we are having a | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
ten-and-a-half hour debate today. Now in that spirit, I look forward | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
to the rest of the debate. H look forward to listening to the | :21:40. | :21:41. | |
contributions of members on all sides of this House but I hope that | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
at the end of it all, the House will come together in large numbdrs for | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
Britain to play its part in defeating these evil extremhsts and | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
taking the action that is ndeded now to keep our country safe. T`king a | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
decision to put British servicemen and women in harm's way, and almost | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
inevitably lead to the deaths of snnts a heavy responsibilitx. It | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
must be treated with the utlost seriousness and respect givdn to | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
those who make a different judgment about the right course of action to | :22:15. | :22:22. | |
take. # which is why the Prhme Minister's attempt to brand those | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
who plan to vote against thd Government as terrorist | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
sympathisers, both demeans the office of the British and, H | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
believe, undermines the serhousness of the deliberations we are having | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
today. If the Prime Minister now wants to apologise for thosd | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
remarks, I would be happy to give way to him to do so. | :22:43. | :22:52. | |
Since, Mr Speaker, the Primd Minister is unmoved, we havd to move | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
on with the debate. It's impossible, I think, Mr Speaker, to avohd the | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
conclusion that the Prime Mhnister understands that public opinion is | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
moving, increasingly, against what I believe to be an ill-thout-out rush | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
to war. And he wants to hold this vote before the opinion grows even | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
further against it. Whether it's a lack of strategy worth the name the | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
absence of credible ground troops, the missing diplomatic plan for a | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
Syrian settlement, the failtre to address the impact of the tdrrorist | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
threat or the refugee crisis and civilian casualty, it is becoming | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
increasingly clear that the Prime Minister's proposals for military | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
action simply do not stack tp. There is agreement across this Hotse that | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
the threat from Daesh is re`l, and doing nothing is not an opthon. | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
However, however, we recall that only two years ago this Prile | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
Minister, this Government w`nted us to bomb the owe uponents of Daesh, | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
which would no doubt have strengthened them. -- oppondnts I | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
believe that the Government has not answered the questions posed by the | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, in fact, neither | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
do a majority who voted on the issue of the Foreign Affairs Select | :24:14. | :24:15. | |
Committee. In these circumstances, Mr Speaker, we cannot support the | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
Government. This is not abott provoking a new confrontation with | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
Daesh. They have already confronted peace and decency and humanhty. We | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
have seen what they are cap`ble of, in terms of beheadings, | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
Crucifixions, mass rain. We have seen the refugee crisis that they | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
have provoked in the Middle East with its terrible human cost. And we | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
have seen their willingness to export jihad, whenever they are able | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
to do so. It's also not abott bombing Syria, per se, as it is | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
being portrayed outside. It is the he is steps of a military c`mpaign | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
that we are already following in Iraq. Across what is, in effect a | :24:58. | :25:05. | |
nonexistent border in the s`nd. But there is absolutely no eviddnce of | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
any kind that bombing Daesh, that bombing radio ka will result in an | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
upsurge of other people in the region to get rid of them. ,- | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
bombing Raqqa. What it would do would - might cause some dalage it | :25:27. | :25:35. | |
won't undermine them. What ht will undoubtedly do, despite the | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
assurances of the Prime Minhster, which I'm sure he has given in good | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
faith, it will kill innocent civilians. Hear, hear And I am not | :25:45. | :25:52. | |
going to be a party to killhng innocent civilians for what will | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
simply be a gesture. This is about people at war with us and otr values | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
and our society. This is not a war of choice. And I haven't spoken to | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
anyone, Mr Speaker, who demtrs from the proposition that Isil mtst be | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
denied the territory that they currently control. And whilst the | :26:14. | :26:22. | |
defeat of Isil and its ideology will the be work of many years and | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
decades, the retaking of thhs territory is an urgent and hmmediate | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
requirement. This, thereford, is the mission. Whilst the civil w`r rakes | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
in Syria, it is virtually ilpossible to achieve that. That is thd | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
necessary first step. -- civil war rages in Syria. There are those not | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
opposed in principle to the action, who doubt the efficacy. A coalition | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
action, that rests almost wholly on bombing, they say l have little | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
effect. Well, tell that to the Kosovans and don't forget, hf there | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
had been no bombing in Kosovo, perhaps a million Albanian Luslim | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
Foulkes would have been seeking refuge in Europe. The short,term | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
effect of British air strikds will be marginal, I think most pdople | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
accept that but as we intervene more, we become more responsible for | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
the events on the ground and lay ourselves open to the unintdnded | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
consequences of the fog of war. Without a comprehensive str`tegy, | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
air strikes will simply reinforce the West's long-term failurd in the | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
region generally, at a time when there are already too many `ircraft | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
chasing too few targets and I suggest, just as in previous | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
ill-advised Western interventions, a strong pattern emerges, timd and | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
time again the executive makes a convincing case, often with | :27:49. | :27:50. | |
supporting intelligence sources and time and time again, it turns out to | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
be wrong. We must break the umbilical cord that acts as an annor | :27:56. | :28:03. | |
for Raqqa and acts as for destruction of Middle Easterners | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
alike. Until we can demonstrate that we can scar and humiliate D`esh we | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
will not be taken seriously by those who are attracted to Daesh's | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
bidding. Raqqa is command and control. It is from there it plans | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
its trial joys of terror to control parts of Syria and Iraq and to | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
establish the provinces that have already been declared in Libya, | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
Egypt, Syria Iraq, Saudi Ar`bia Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan and | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
closer to home to create colmand and control cells in Europe. I can give | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
anecdote after anecdote that would break your heart but one is a | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
seven-year-old lad being lifted from a dinghy on a beach and my | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
interpreter said to his dad - daddy, are Isil here, daddy are Ishl here. | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
I cannot stand in this Housd and castigate the Prime Minister for not | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
taking enough refugees and for Britain not standing tall as it | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
should do in the world and open its arms to the desperate as we have | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
done proudly for many decadds and throughout our history, if we do not | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
also do everything in our power to eradicate that which is the source | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
of the people fleeing from that terror. Victory means bringhng | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
together air cover, ground forces and politics, too, and heavdns | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
above, if we can't sustain that combination to take back Mosul, how | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
on earth are we going to take Bacharach ka in Syria? That's why I | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
was disappointed Mr Speaker the Prime Minister was not able to | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
suppose spy the ground forcds to take Bacharach ka under the air | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
cover of the RAF. That is the difference between Iraq and Syria. | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
-- take back Ankara. I don't want a half-hearted fight. I | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
want a fall-on fight. The Government don't have a plan for that. We are | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
here faced by fascists, not just the calculated brutality but thdir | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
belief they are superior to every single one of us in their chamber | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
tonight and all of the people we represent. They hold us in contempt. | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
They hold our values in contempt. They hold our belief, and tolerance | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
and belief in decency in contempt. They hold our democracy, thd means | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
by which we will make our ddcision tonight, in contempt. And what we | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
know about fascists, is that they need to be defeated. | :30:24. | :30:31. | |
And it is why, as we have hdard tonight, socialists and trade | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
unionists and others joined the international brigade in thd 19 0s | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
to fight against Franco. It is why this entire House stood up `gainst | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
Hitler and Mussolini. It is why our party has always stood up against | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
the denial of human rights `nd for justice. And my view, Mr Spdaker, is | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
that we must now confront this evil. It is now time for us to do our bit | :30:59. | :31:06. | |
in Syria. And that is why I ask my colleagues to vote for this motion | :31:07. | :31:07. | |
tonight. Hear, hear. The Ayes to the right, 397. The Noes | :31:08. | :35:13. | |
to the left, 323. The Ayes to the right, 397. The Noes to the left, | :35:14. | :35:25. | |
223. The Ayes have it, the @yes have it. Unlock. Order, we come now to | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
the petition. LAUGHTER | :35:33. | :35:57. | |
I asked members leaving the Chamber, however unaccountably, please to do | :35:58. | :36:09. | |
so quickly and quietly, so we can hear the petition from the right | :36:10. | :36:16. | |
honourable lady, the member for Chesham and Amersham. | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
Points of order, Doctor Philippa Whitford. | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
Just really to thank the spdaker for going through all these hours of | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
debate and as a doctor, could I say, that is not terribly healthx. | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
I am extremely grateful to the honourable lady for what shd said. I | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
take note of her health advhce but there have to be exceptions and I | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
wanted to be here to hear every speech. I must thank colleagues for | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
what was a remarkable and ddcent tone which characterised thd | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
contributions over several hours. Point of order, Mr David Winick | :37:01. | :37:07. | |
I want this on record that ht is unlikely that any previous speaker | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
has ever done what you have done today, sit throughout withott a | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
single break and I think thd whole House should congratulate you. | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
Well, I'm Fred Slater dined honoured by what the honourable gentleman | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
said. I sought no such compliment but the honourable gentleman first | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
came into the House 49 years ago and he knows I hold in the highdst | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
esteem and I thank him for luch The credit is for the House in the way | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
it has conducted itself tod`y. I appreciate what he said. I will bank | :37:40. | :37:47. | |
it while I can! Thank you, colleagues. Petition Mrs | :37:48. | :37:55. | |
Cheryl Carter. I rise to present a petition from my | :37:56. | :38:06. | |
constituent Mr Tom Perry and 23 people concerning the mandatory | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
reporting of child abuse. The petition declares that child | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
protection in regulated acthvities is dependent upon reporting | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
procedure external to the contributions that arise. Ftrther, | :38:23. | :38:34. | |
child protection is placed hn jeopardy by the absence of `ny | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
direct statutory legal obligation to report the concern to the local | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
authority or police. My pethtioner has therefore request that the House | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
of Commons urges the Governlent to introduce legislation that requires | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
persons in a position of trtst to work with children in regul`ted | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
activities, and who know, stspect or have reasonable grounds for knowing | :39:00. | :39:06. | |
or suspected child abuse, to inform the local authority designated | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
officer, or in appropriate circumstances, children's sdrvices | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
and make failure to inform ` criminal offence. They hope that | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
this will improve the posithon and protection of children in the care | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
of regulated activities. Petition, mandatory reporting of | :39:24. | :39:42. | |
child abuse. Thank you. Order. We come now to the | :39:43. | :39:51. | |
enjoyment. I beg to move th`t this House do now adjourn. The qtestion | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
is that this House do now adjourn. Caroline Noakes. | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. You do not have to stay in the chair for the | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
whole of this adjournment ddbate. You may notice I have a cro`ky voice | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
so I will keep my remarks brief I certainly welcome the opportunity to | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
raise this issue with the Mhnister. Hats that is inevitable as the | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
Government produce house-buhlding and starts and completions `re up | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
significantly. There are more new-build homes, therefore, with the | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
potential to provoke complahnts I know my right honourable frhend for | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
Basingstoke had a very similar debate in July and I'm award that | :40:36. | :40:47. | |
the honourable friend is Inc -- conducting an enquiry on thhs issue. | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
Sadly, these problems tend happen in isolation. Test Valley Borotgh, | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
which covers the greater part of my constituency, has followed what the | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
Government has asked of loc`l planning authorities. Over the last | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
three years there has been dither the highest or second-highest number | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
of housing completions in the whole of Hampshire within test Valley and | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
that includes the two cities of Southampton and Portsmouth. Test | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
Valley has consistently been in the top ten of the housing completions | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
in the south-east region. Btt as you might expect, where you get high | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
levels of house-building, you might also get high levels of complaints | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
from new residents. Mr Speaker, buying a new home is an enormous | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
step for most people. It is exciting, challenging and stressful, | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
probably in equal measure. H think it is true to say moving hole is one | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
of the most stressful things any individual, couple or familx can go | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
through, but it is also exchting. How much more exciting when that is | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
a new-build home, one that xou camp at your own mark on, one whhch has | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
not been lived in by anybodx else? I know my honourable friend whll be | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
delighted to hear that during the general election campaign e`rlier | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
this year, I was out talking to residents in Abbotsford, a new 00 | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
home development on the edgd of Romsey. One resident invited me into | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
her home, bought with help from the Government's Help to Buy scheme and | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
proudly showed me a photogr`ph in her sitting room of her and her | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
husband in Downing Street whth my right honourable friend the Prime | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
Minister. For Lisa and her husband, there was nothing but joy at being | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
in their own brand-new home. But sadly, that is not the case for | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
everyone, and I request that this debate today, to highlight some of | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
the challenges facing house purchases, of new-build properties | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
when things do not go according to plan. I'm very conscious of your | :42:51. | :42:59. | |
voice so I will not keep yot either. I understand there is a 10-xear | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
warranty that anyone who buxs a new home house but it a very informal | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
arrangement. Does the honourable lady think it is time for government | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
to formalise the legislation and make sure the protection new buyers | :43:14. | :43:23. | |
need for that Holmes is there? I know the honourable member for | :43:24. | :43:25. | |
Strangford has an interest hn this area. The 10-year guarantee is a | :43:26. | :43:33. | |
strategy. As a society, we have become incredibly aware of our | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
consumer rights. When making substantial purchases we look for | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
warranty is, assurance and customer service. There is no purchasing life | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
more substantial than that of buying a house. Yet over the last 08 | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
months, some of my constitudnts have felt less protected than if they had | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
for example ought a new car. The protections they believe thdy had | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
and had taken for granted, `nd they assumed would come into acthon | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
should there be a problem, have simply not had the effect that any | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
reasonable consumer would w`nt. We all may we new-build properties | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
there can be snagging probldms. Back in 1996I well remember buying a new | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
house and there were some mhnor issues which did indeed need | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
fixing. The builder came back and sorted them out. I remember the | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
pride I had in that house, being able to put my own identity on it | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
and how happy I was in that home. But what about when the isstes are | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
not minor? This was the casd of my constituents even in and Ricardo. | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
Some 18 months after they fhrst identified problems with thdir | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
brand-new house, they remain in rented accommodation, paying a | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
mortgage on a house which they cannot live in and unfortun`tely, | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
still waiting for the builddrs, in this case Taylor Wimpey, who I get | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
to remove the undersized cehling joists, some walls and the roof It | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
sounds like a total rebuild. While they are in rented accommod`tion, | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
one of their neighbours livdd in a hotel for six months. One of the | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
problems I would like to dr`w to the minister's attention, is thd | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
assumption by house-builders that building control is necessarily | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
performed by the local authority. This is simply not the case. In many | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
cases the building control checks are done instead by the warranty | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
providers like the NAHB C. This can be for very good reasons. The | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
warranty companies might prdfer it as they would then be providing the | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
warranty for a building thex have been involved with from a vdry early | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
stage. There are several inspections which take place at various stages, | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
from checking the depth of foundation, for making sure cavities | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
are the appropriate size, through to the pre-plaster chap. There is a log | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
for each inspection which mx constituents argue should bd freely | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
available automatically to the prospective purchaser. But, the | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
customer is not necessarily aware of that, and there does have to be a | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
better understanding that a local authority building control hnspector | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
might never have seen the btilding and the local authority, bexond | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
granting planning permission may have no direct interest in the | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
subsequent build process. The assumption, however, that whoever | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
has carried out the inspecthon process, might be that throtghout | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
that process problems would be flagged up and the build process | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
would be able to have them `mended, before it moved onto the next stage. | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
I am conscious that my honotrable friend, the member for Basingstoke | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
has raised in detail the fl`ws in the inspection scheme and how this | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
might leave a homeowner mord vulnerable than they had evdr | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
imagined when entering into a contract. I do not intend to repeat | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
those arguments but I whollx endorse the view for a duty of care to be | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
established between the homd inspectors and the buyer. Btt we | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
also need to somehow conveydd to purchases that they need to be | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
vigilant in this process and be aware that it might not be there | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
local authority you have inspected the build. In the case of mx | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
constituents, they feel verx much as if they have been pushed from pillar | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
to post, with each one shrugging shoulders and all pointing back to | :47:28. | :47:29. | |
the builder as the one who lust rectify the problems. That hs | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
undoubtedly right. The NHBC system and other warranty providers require | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
the builder to rectify the problem within the first two years. In the | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
situation I outline, their builder, Taylor Wimpey, have accepted it is | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
their responsibility to replace all the joists and trusses which had not | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
been installed properly as required. And tonight, I understand the | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
scaffolding is up and the roof will come off tomorrow. We must take the | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
sun will be shining. However, where a defect is discovered and the | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
builder refuses to carry out the remedial work, a free resolttion | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
service is offered by the w`rranty providers. But what happens when the | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
builder does agree to carry out the work that dragged their feet and is | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
not that on with the repairs? And that is where my constituents first | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
contacted me. They're bright, shiny new house at unacceptable ldvels of | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
vibration. The investigations had revealed that the joists and trusses | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
were acting independently of each other. They have to come out, the | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
plaster all removed, feeling taken out and the roof will come. They | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
contacted the local authority who quickly stated it was not their | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
responsibility. But they cotld find no agent able to act as an | :48:49. | :48:51. | |
intermediary between them and the builder, took said the pressure they | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
wanted to make sure a speedx and appropriate remedy can be | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
facilitated. For six months the family lived with no feelings after | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
they had been stripped out. Walls were missing and their furnhture was | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
in storage. For a further shx months, they lived in rented | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
housing, expecting at any moment work to be started on what was meant | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
to be their pride and joy, ` home for their boys. My constitudnts feel | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
that for big purchases like houses, there should be some sort of | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
protection, someone to speak up on their behalf to act as an | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
intermediary. They believe there should be some sort of ombudsman and | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
there are certainly some attraction to that idea. | :49:36. | :49:42. |