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Order! Order! Before I look to the Leader of the House To move the | :00:09. | :00:20. | |
business of the House motion, that is to say, motion number ond, it | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
might be for the conveniencd of the House to know that no fewer than 157 | :00:26. | :00:33. | |
colleagues are seeking to c`tch the eye of the chair today. The chair | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
will do his best to accommodate as many colleagues as possible. I would | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
ask that colleagues do not come to the chair to enquire whether you are | :00:47. | :00:54. | |
going to be called and when, or to enquire on the half of a colleague, | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
or to cause others to enquire on your behalf or that of others. I | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
understand the interest, we have done our best and will do otr best, | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
please be patient and hope for the best. Needless to say for the | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
benefit of new members, bear in mind if you wish to speak that it is | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
imperative you remain until all of the front bench speeches have been | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
completed. Thereafter, people must use their own judgment and come and | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
go if they wish, but try and remain in The Chamber for as much of the | :01:31. | :01:39. | |
debate as possible. The question is is on the order papers. We shall be | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
dealing today with the security of our country, the safety of the | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
people of Syria, and the lids of our Armed Forces, which is why we asked | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
two weeks ago for a two-day debate. I request my right honourable friend | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
repeated on Monday the. Members had a chance to make proper | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
contributions and an opporttnity to reflect on the argument. As you have | :02:04. | :02:11. | |
said, 157 members have put hn to speak, 87 from this side of the | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
House, 80 from the other side. Plus the front bench speeches whdre | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
members will want to press linisters on their argument and their case. | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
You will be announcing soon that there is a five-minute limit on | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
speeches and this will almost certainly be reduced to four minutes | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
and we minutes, and even so, not all members will be able to spe`k in the | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
debate today. I gently say to the Prime Minister, this is no way to | :02:46. | :02:54. | |
proceed if you really want to take the House and country with xou. It | :02:55. | :03:03. | |
is important that we on these benches put forward our profound | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
disappointment of a guillothne motion after rejecting the calls and | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
requests for a two-day debate. This could easily have been postponed. I | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
think the public expects us to clear the decks and get down to ddbating | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
the important issue of the day. It is likely that considering ` quarter | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
of the members of this Housd want to speak today, people will be | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
disappointed. Every member has the right to represent their | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
constituency on an issue of such importance, and our constittents | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
have the right to listen to their MP. This is no way to do business | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
and we remain disappointed that the government has not made mord time | :03:45. | :03:52. | |
for this debate. Since we h`ve 57 people waiting to speak, it would be | :03:53. | :04:03. | |
better if we got on with thd debate. I will not be making any | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
announcements soon about anx time limit, and I have given absolutely | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
no honourable or right honotrable member any reason to believd that I | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
shall. If I have something to say, I will say it's to the House. -- it. | :04:20. | :04:29. | |
Very briefly... I wish to r`ise an error on the order paper. Mx name is | :04:30. | :04:38. | |
erroneously been added. I al great great fault. -- I am grateftl. She | :04:39. | :04:46. | |
wishes to be withdrawn from that amendment and that is noted. Perhaps | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
if she would be kind enough, we can leave it there. The question is is | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
on the order paper in respect of motion number one. As many of that | :04:56. | :05:03. | |
opinion... On the contrary... I think the ayes habit. The axes | :05:04. | :05:12. | |
habit. -- have it. I have sdlected amendment the in the member of Mr | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
John Barron and others. The amendment will be debated together | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
with the main motion. At thd end of the debate, he will be invited to | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
move the amendment formally and the questions will then be put first on | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
the amendment and then on the main motion. We now come to motion number | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
two on Isil in Syria United Nations Security Council Resolution 224 . I | :05:38. | :05:45. | |
wish to call the Prime Minister Mr Speaker, I beg to move the lotion on | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
the order paper in my name `nd my right honourable friend. Thd | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
question before the House today is how we keep the richest people safe | :05:54. | :06:03. | |
on the threat posed by Isil. -- British. This is not about fighting | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
terrorism, it is about how best we do that. I respect that govdrnments | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
have had to fight terrorism and take the people with them as thex do so, | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
and I respect the balloon come to a different view from the govdrnment | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
and the 1 I set out today, `nd those who vote accordingly, and I hope | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
that provides some reassurance to members right across the Hotse. I'm | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
happy to give way. I thank the Prime Minister and he is right in his | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
opening statement to say how important it is due respect opinion | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
on all sides of this House, so will he apologised for his remarks last | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
night against his right honourable friend 's? I respect people who | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
disagree, I could not be cldarer. I respect that governments of all | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
colours have had to fight tdrrorism and I respect we are all discussing | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
here how to fight terrorism and not whether to fight terrorism. In | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
moving this motion... Mr Spdaker... Order! The Prime Minister is clearly | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
not at this stage giving wax. He has the floor. I will take dozens of | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
interventions in the time I have stopped and conscience -- conscious | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
of not taking too much time. Let me make progress at the start. In | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
moving this motion, I am not pretending that the answers are | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
simple. The situation in Syria is incredibly complex. I am not | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
overstating the contribution that are incredible service men `nd women | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
can make, neither am I ignoring the risks of military action, nor am I | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
pretending that military action is any more than one part of the | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
answer. I am clear that we lust pursue a comprehensive strategy that | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
also includes political, diplomatic and humanitarian action, and I know | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
the long-term solution in Sxria is in Iraq must ultimately be ` | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
government that represents `ll of its people, and one that can work | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
with us to defeat the evil organisation of Isil for good. | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
Notwithstanding all of this, there is a simple question at the heart of | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
the debate today. We face a fundamental threat to our sdcurity. | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
Isil have brutally murdered British hostages, they have inspired the | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
worst terrorist attack against richest people in Tunisia, `nd they | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
plotted atrocity after atrocity on the streets at home. Since November | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
last year, the security services have foiled no fewer than sdven | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
plots against our people so this threat is very real and the question | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
is this. We work with our allies to degrade and destroy this threat and | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
do we go after these terrorhsts in their heartlands where they are | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
plotting to kill richest people or do we sit back and wait for them to | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
attack us? -- British. It whll be helpful if he could retract his | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
inappropriate comment from last night but will he be assured that no | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
one on this side of the House will make a decision based on anx such | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
remarks, nor will we be thrdatened from doing what we believe hs the | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
right thing, whether those threat come from online activist or indeed | :09:28. | :09:35. | |
from our own dispatch box? H completely agree with the honourable | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
gentleman. Everybody should make up their mind on the arguments in this | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
House, and there is honour hn voting for, and there is honour in voting | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
against, that is the way thhs macro house should operate and th`t is why | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
I want to be clear that this is about how we fight terrorisl, and | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
not whether we fight terrorhsm. I will make progress and then give | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
way. In answering this question we should remember that 15 months ago, | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
facing a threat from Isil in Iraq, this House voted to authorise air | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
strikes in Iraq. Since then, our brilliant RAF pilots have hdlped | :10:16. | :10:23. | |
local forces to hold the advance and recover 30% of the territorx that | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
Isil had captured. I spoke to the President Barack and he expressed | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
his gratitude for the vital work is forces are doing, and yet when our | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
planes reached the Syria border we can no longer act to defend either | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
his country or indeed our country. Even when we know that the | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
headquarters of Isil R.N. R`qqa and it is from here that many of the | :10:47. | :10:48. | |
plots against our country are born. The Prime Minister is facing an | :10:49. | :10:59. | |
amendment that was signed bx 11 members of this House from six | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
different political parties. I have examined this list very cardfully, I | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
cannot identify a single terrorist sympathiser among that list. Will he | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
now apologise for his deeplx insulting remarks? I have m`de very | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
clear, this is about how we fight terrorism and there is honotr in any | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
vote that honourable members make. Mr Speaker, we possess capabilities | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
to reduce this threat to our security and my argument today is | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
that we should not wait any longer before doing so. We should `nd so | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
the call from our allies. The action we propose is legal, it is necessary | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
and it is the right thing to do to keep our country save and mx strong | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
view is that this House shotld make clear that we will take up our | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
them off and put our own national them off and put our own national | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
security in the hands of others I give way. I have just returned from | :12:00. | :12:10. | |
Baghdad and Irbil, where Ishl is on the back foot, Saint John h`s been | :12:11. | :12:19. | |
liberated, the route between Muslim Raqqa has been liberated, btt | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
everyone on the ground tells me that unless we attack Isil on thd ground, | :12:23. | :12:30. | |
there is no point, they will come back and attack their country and | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
our country. It is set out very clearly in the UN Security Council | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
that the fact that this so-called caliphate exist in Syria as well as | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
Iraq is a direct threat to the Government of Iraq. He talks about | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
some of the better news frol Iraq, I would also add what has happened in | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
Tikrit, since that has been taken off Isil, 70% of the population | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
returning to the city. Later on I am sure we will talk about | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
humanitarian aid, reconstruction. That can only work if you t`lk about | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
-- if you have good Governmdnt in those towns and the absence of Isil | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
in those towns. Let me make a little more progress and I will take more | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
interventions. Since my statement last week, the House has had an | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
opportunity to ask questions of our security experts. I have -- arranged | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
a breathing for more privy counsellors. I have spoken to | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
President Obama, Chancellor Merkel, Francois Hollande and the Khng of | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
Jordan. The King of Jordan has written in the Daily Telegr`ph today | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
expressing his wish for Britain to stand with Jordan in elimin`ting | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
this global threat. I have `lso listened carefully to questhons from | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
members on all sides of this has and I hope honourable members c`n see | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
the influence this House has had on the motion before us. The stress on | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
post-conflict reconstruction and stabilisation, the importance | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
standing by our allies, are the importance standing by our `llies, | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
troops in combat operations, the importance of casualties, cdasefires | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
and a political settlement `nd regular updates to this House. I | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
have drawn these points frol across the House and put them in the | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
motion, because I want as m`ny people as possible to feel `ble to | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
support this action. I give way Can I say first of all that I whll be | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
supporting him today. I do think, however, that he needs to apologise | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
for the comments he made in relation to the Labour Party. Could H ask him | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
very specifically, in relathon to civilian casualties, what the UK | :14:40. | :14:41. | |
Government are going to do to minimise those? The honourable | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
gentleman raises a very important point. In Iraq, for a year `nd three | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
months, there have been no reports of civilian casualties related to | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
the strikes Britain has takdn. Our starting point is to avoid civilian | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
casualties altogether and I have argued and indeed will argud again | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
today that our precision we`pons and the skill of our pilots makds | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
civilian casualties less likely so Britain being involved in the | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
strikes in Iraq can both be effective in prosecuting thd | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
campaign against Isil, but `lso can help us to avoid civilian c`sualties | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
as well. Let me give way. I'm grateful to the Prime Minister. Is | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
he aware that we have press reports that over the recent past, 60,0 0 | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
Syrian troops have been murdered by Isil and our allies have actually | :15:34. | :15:41. | |
waited to attack until after that murderous act has taken place. | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
Therefore, there is a key p`rt in the motion for many others which | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
talks about our action will be exclusively against Isil. If Isil | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
are involved in attacking Sxrian Government troops, will we be | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
bombing Isil in defence of those troops or will we wait idly by, as | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
our allies have done up unthl now, wait for Isil to kill those troops | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
and then for us to bomb thel? What I say to The Rt Hon gentleman, who I | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
have great respect for, the motion says exclusively Isil, becatse that | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
was a promise I made in this House in response to points made from both | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
sides of the House and as f`r as I am concerned, wherever Isil are | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
wherever they can be properly targeted, that is what we should do. | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
Let me make this point, bec`use I think it is important, when it comes | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
to the argument about ground troops. In my discussions with the King of | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
Jordan, he was making the point that in the south of Syria, therd already | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
is cooperation between the Jordanian Government and the French and the | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
Americans and the Free Syri`n Army, but also there is a growing | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
ceasefire between the regimd troops and the Free Syrian Army, so they | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
can turn their guns on Isil. That is what I have said, this is a Isil | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
first strategy, they are thd threat, they are the ones wd should | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
be targeting, this is about national security. Let me make more progress | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
and I will take more intervdntions. I want to address the most hmportant | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
point being raised and I will take as many interventions as I can. I | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
believe the key questions bding raised are these: first, good acting | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
in this way actually increase the risk to our security by makhng an | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
attack more likely? Does Brhtain really have the capability to make a | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
difference? Third, the question asked by a number of members, why | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
don't we just increase our level of air strikes in Iraq to free up | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
capacity amongst other membdrs of the coalition so they can c`rry out | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
more air strikes in Syria? Fourth, will they really be the need for | :17:46. | :17:54. | |
ground forces? Fit, what is the strategy for defeating Isil and | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
securing a lasting political settlement. And six, is there a post | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
conflict settlement plan for Syria? I will try and answer all of these | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
in turn. Let me give way. The Prime Minister will know how membdrs of my | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
party feel when it comes to fighting and dealing with terrorism `nd, for | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
that, there will always be support, no matter where terrorism r`ises its | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
head, but turning to the motion could I ask the Prime Minister if he | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
can guarantee to the House where he indicates that the Government will | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
not deploying UK troops in ground combat operations. If it becomes | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
necessary at a later date to do that, will he come back to this | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
House and seek approval to do that? It is not only something I don't | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
want to do, it is something I think if we did, it would be a mistake, | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
because the argument was made to us by the Iraqi Government that the | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
presence of Western ground troops, that can be a radicalising force, | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
that can be counter-producthve, and that is our view. But I would say to | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
him and colleagues behind md who are concerned about this issue, I accept | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
that this means that our strategy takes longer to be successftl, | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
because we rely on Iraqi ground troops in Iraq. We rely on the | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
patchwork of Free Syrian Arly troops there are in Syria. In time, we hope | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
for Syrian ground troops from a transitional regime. But all of that | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
takes longer and I think ond of the key messages that has to cole across | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
today is yes, we do have a strategy. It is a complex picture, it will | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
take time, but we are acting in the right way. Let me make one lore | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
point, before we get onto all of these things, I want to say | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
something about the terminology we used to describe this evil death | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
cult. Having carefully conshdered the strong representations lade to | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
me and having listened to m`ny members of Parliament, I thhnk it is | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
time to join our key ally France, the Arab league and other mdmbers of | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
the international community in using as frequently as possible the | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
terminology Daesh, rather than Isil. This evil death cult hs not a | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
true representation of Islal nor is it a state. I am interested to hear | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
what he thinks we should call Daesh, but if we are talking about | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
terminology, should he not take this opportunity to withdraw those | :20:19. | :20:20. | |
remarks he is calling those who will not be voting him back of the late | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
with him tonight, a bunch of terrorist sympathisers. Not as it | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
only offensive, it is dangerous and it is untrue. I have made mx views | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
clear about all of us fighthng terrorism and it is time to move on. | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
Let me turn to the important questions and I will take | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
interventions as I go through. First, could acting increasd the | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
risk to our security? This hs one of the most important questions we have | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
to answer. Privy councils across the House have had a briefing from the | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
chair of the independent Johnt Intelligence Committee. I c`n't | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
share all of the classified, but I can say this, Paris wasn't just | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
different because it was so close to us because it was so horrifhc in | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
scale, Paris was different because it showed the extent of terror | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
planning from Daesh in Syri` and the approach of sending people back from | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
Syria to Europe. This was, hf you like, the head of the snake in Raqqa | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
in action. So it is not surprising that the judgment of the ch`ir of | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
the Joint Intelligence Commhttee and of the director-general of the | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
Security service is that thd risk of a similar attack in the UK hs real, | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
and that the UK is already hn the top tier of countries on Ishl's | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
target list. I want to make this point, I will take more | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
interventions. If there is `n attack on the UK in the coming weeks or | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
months, there will be those who try to say it has happened becatse of | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
our air strikes. I do not bdlieve that will be the case. Daesh have | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
been trying to attack us for the last year, as we know from the seven | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
different plots our securitx services have oil. The thre`t level | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
to the UK was raised to sevdre last August in light of attempted attack | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
to buy Daesh, meaning it is highly likely. 800 people, including | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
children, have been radicalhsed and travelled to this so-called | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
caliphate. These terrorists are plotting to kill us and radhcalising | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
our children right now. Thex attack us because of who we are, not | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
because of what we do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. We all, on these bdnches, | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
share the Prime Minister's horror for Daesh and its death cult and we | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
bought terrorism. Will he t`ke this further opportunity to identify | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
which members of these benches he regards as terrorist sympathisers? | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
Everyone in this House can speak for themselves. What I am saying is when | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
it comes to the risk of milhtary action, the risks of inaction are | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
far greater than the risks of what I propose. Next, there are those who | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
ask whether Britain conducthng strikes in Syria will reallx make a | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
difference. This is a questhon. . Let me make my argument then I will | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
take his question, because this point has been raised in brdathing | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
after breaching. I believe we can make a real difference. I told the | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
House last week about dynamhc targeting, brimstone missilds, about | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
the wrapped POD on our torn`does and the intelligence gathering work of | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
the drones. I will not repe`t all of that but there is another w`y of | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
putting it that is equally powerful. There is in the coalition a lot of | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
strike capacity, but when it comes to precision strike capabilhty, | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
whether covering Iraq or Syria, last week the whole international | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
coalition had some 26 aircr`ft available. Eight of those wdre | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
British tornadoes, so typic`lly the UK actually represents betwden a | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
quarter and a third of the international coalition's precision | :24:00. | :24:01. | |
bombing capability and we also have about a quarter of the unmanned | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
strike capability flying in the region, so we have a signifhcant | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
proportion of high precision strike capability. That is why this | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
decision is so important. I will give way. He is right to sing the | :24:14. | :24:21. | |
praises of the RAF pilots and my constituents, one of his sons was | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
tragically killed training for the RAF in 2012 and he has asked | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
specifically this question. Will be air force in northern Iraq, or is | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
the in northern Iraq, and if we go into Syria, does it have co`lition | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
warning systems attached in this crowded airspace question are | :24:42. | :24:43. | |
absolutely essential for thd of our pilots. The honourable gentleman is | :24:44. | :24:51. | |
absolutely right and I pay tribute to his constituent's son. Wd will be | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
part of the deep conviction process that already exists between | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
coalition partners flying in Syria and in Russia. In terms of our own | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
aeroplanes, they have the most extensive air sweeps possible to | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
make sure they are kept safd. So the argument I was making is ond reason | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
members of the international coalition, including Obama, have | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
made the point me personallx, they British planes were make a real | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
difference in Syria, just as they are doing in | :25:23. | :25:51. | |
Either vote is an honourabld vote but I is just we get on with the | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
debate that the country wants to his. I've believe this is to answer | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
the next question that some members have asked about why we do not | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
simply increase our level of air strikes in Iraq to free up other | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
coalition capacity for strikes in Syria. We have the capabilities but | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
other members of the coalithon want to benefit from and it makes no | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
sense to stop using these capabilities at a border between | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
Iraq and Syria that IS does not recognise or respect. -- Dadsh does | :26:22. | :26:30. | |
not recognise. There was a recent incident in which Syrian opposition | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
forces needed urgent support in the fight against Daesh. British | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
Tornados were eight minutes away over the border in Iraq, no one else | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
was close but Britain could not help so the opposition forces had to wait | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
40 minutes in a perilous situation while other forces were scr`mbled. | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
That sort of De Laet endangdrs the lives of those fighting Daesh on the | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
ground and does nothing for our reputation -- that sort of delay. I | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
thank him for giving way. C`n he understand that, at a time when too | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
many aircraft are chasing too few targets, what concerns many of us is | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
a lack of com preventive strategy both military and non-milit`ry | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
including an exit strategy? One of the fundamental differences between | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
Iraq and Syria is you have nearly a million personnel on the government | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
payroll and still we are having trouble pushing Isil act. 70,00 | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
moderates in Syria, quite frankly, we risk forgetting the lesson in | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
Libya. What is his reaction to the decision of the Foreign Aff`irs | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
Committee yesterday that actually the Prime Minister had not | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
adequately addressed our concerns? Let me answer both questions. The | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
second question is perhaps `nswered by something I am sure the whole | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
house want to join me in whhch is wishing the honourable membdr for | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
Ilford South well given his recent illness, who normally is always at | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
the foreign affairs select committee and voting on the basis of the | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
arguments he believes in. Where we disagree is I believe there is a | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
strategy of which military `ction is only one part. The key answdred his | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
question is that we want to seem a new Syrian transitional govdrnment | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
whose troops will then be otr allies in squeezing out destroying the | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
so-called caliphate altogether. My disagreement with my honour`ble | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
friend is that I believe we cannot wait for that to happen, thd threat | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
is now, Isil-Daesh are planning attacks now. We can act in Syria as | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
we did in Iraq and in doing so we can enhance the long-term sdcurity | :28:46. | :28:53. | |
and safety of our country. H first double thank the Prime Minister for | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
that change into another chdap and all members of Parliament bdcause | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
the house for their support. -- change in terminology. Would he join | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
me in urging the BBC to change their policy of not using the word Daesh | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
because it would breach imp`rtiality rules. We are at war with | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
terrorism, we have to be unhted will he join me in urging the BBC to | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
review their bizarre policy? I agree with my honourable friend and I have | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
corresponded with the BBC about their use of IS macro, Islalic | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
State, which I think is even worse than either saying so-called I S or | :29:35. | :29:41. | |
Isil but Daesh is clearly an improvement and it is important we | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
all try to use this languagd. Let me make some progress and I will give | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
way some more. There is a more fundamental answer as to whx we | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
should carry out as drugs in Syria ourselves will stop it is R`kip in | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
Syria that is the HQ of this threat -- carry out air strikes. As I have | :29:59. | :30:07. | |
said, it is in Syria were m`ny of the plots against our country are | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
formed so we must act in Syria to deal with these threats ourselves. I | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
thank him for giving way, I would have preferred an apology btt I want | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
to discuss the facts. We proposing to be targeting different things | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
than in northern Iraq and I would like to ask him what practical steps | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
will be used to reduce civilian casualties and what sort of target | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
will will be going against which will reduce the terrorist threat to | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
the UK in terms of operations against our citizens? In terms of | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
the sort of targets we can go after, clearly it is the leaders of this | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
death cult itself, the training camps, the communications htb is, | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
those that are plotting agahnst us. As I will argue, the limited action | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
we took against this dame, has already had an impact on Ishl-Daesh | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
and that is an important pohnt - against Husein. We have a policy of | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
wanting zero civilian casualties. One year and three months into these | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
Iraqi operations, we have not had any reports of civilian castalties. | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
I am not standing here saying that there are no casualties in war, of | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
course there are, this is a very difficult situation will stop it is | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
hugely complex and a diffictlt argument to get across. But at the | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
heart is a simple point, will we in the long-term be safer and better | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
off if we can get rid of thhs so-called caliphate which is | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
radicalising Muslims, turning people against us and plotting atrocities | :31:47. | :31:53. | |
on the streets of Britain? H'm grateful to my right honour`ble | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
friend for giving way. Would he agree with me that there ard already | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
hundreds if not thousands of civilian casualties, those who are | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
thrown off ill beans, burned, decapitated, crucified, who have had | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
to flee Syria -- throne of hll doings. -- throne of the holdings. | :32:14. | :32:24. | |
We want to prevent this death cult from carrying out these ghastly axe. | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
Let me to the question of whether there will be ground forces to make | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
this operation a success ard a ghastly acts. Those who say there | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
are not as mini ground troops as we like and not in the right places are | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
correct, we are not feeling with an ideal situation. We should be clear | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
what air strikes alone can `chieve. We don't need ground troops to | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
target the supply of oil whhch they used to fund terrorism or to target | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
their headquarters and infrastructure and supply routes and | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
training facilities. It is clear that air strikes can have an effect | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
with the issue of Khan and Hussein. Irrespective of ground forcds, the | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
RAF can do serious damage to the bloody right now to bring tdrror to | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
our streets and we should ghve them that support -- -- to their | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
capability. How would he was born to the point that since the offensive | :33:23. | :33:31. | |
on Baghdad was blunted by ahr power, it has changed its tactics `nd | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
disbursed it forces and particularly in Raqqa, has disbursed it | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
operations into small units which make it into this to attacks from | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
our Tornados? I think what he says is absolutely right, of course they | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
have changed tactics. But that is not an argument for doing nothing, | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
it is an argument for using air strikes where you can but h`ving a | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
longer term strategy to delhver the ground troops through the transition | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
you need. The argument is shmple, do we wait for perfection which is a | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
transitional government in Syria, or do we start the work now on the | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
grading and destroying this organisation at the request of our | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
allies and the Gulf states on the knowledge from our security experts | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
that it will make a difference? As I said, the full answer to thd | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
question of ground forces c`nnot be achieved until that is a new Syrian | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
government that represent all the people. It is this new government | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
that will be the natural partners for our forces in defeating Daesh | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
for good but there are some ground forces we can work with in the | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
meantime. Last week I told the house, let me give the expl`nation, | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
we believe there are around 70, 00 Syrian opposition fighters who do | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
not belong to extremist grotps and with whom we can coordinate attacks | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
on Daesh. The house will appreciate there are some limits on wh`t I can | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
say about them, not least that I cannot risk their safety, who are | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
being targeted daily by the resume or Daesh or both. This is an area of | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
great interest and concern so let me say a little more. The 70,000 is a | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
tent -- estimate from our independent joint intelligence | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
committee based on a detaildd analysis updated daily and drawing | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
on a wide range of open source and intelligence. Of these, the majority | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
are from the free Syrian arly. Alongside the 70,000 there `re some | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
20,000 Kurdish fighters with whom we can also work. I am not argting | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
this is crucial, that all of these 70,000 art somehow ideal partners. | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
Some left the Syrian army bdcause of the brutality of Assad and they can | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
play a role in the future of Syria. That is a view taken by the Russians | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
as well who are prepared to talk with these people. I thank him for | :36:08. | :36:16. | |
giving way and the helpful way he has helped colleagues from `cross | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
the house he spoke about a long term strategy and a new government in | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
Syria and there is wide agrdement on that but possibly more of a | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
challenge with Russia so can he update the house on, say should he | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
has had with President Putin as to the short and longer term prospects | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
for President Assad? I have had these conversations with Prdsident | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
Putin on many occasions, most recently in Antalya. Barack Obama | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
had a meeting with him at the climate change conference in Paris. | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
There was an enormous gap bdtween written, America and Saudi @rabia | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
and Russia on the other hand -- Britain. We wanted Assad to go | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
instantly, they wanted him to stay at that gap has narrowed and it will | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
narrow further as these vit`l talks in Vienna get underway. And a point | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
about these talks are some people worry it is a process withott an end | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
but the clear ambition of the talks is for a transitional government | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
within six months and a new constitution and fresh secthons | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
within 18 months so there is a real momentum behind these talks. That | :37:26. | :37:26. | |
require fresh elections. Was he confirmed the house that | :37:27. | :37:35. | |
alongside any military intervention in Syria that may be authorhsed to | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
night he remains completely committed to the huge F at which has | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
kept so many people alive bx this government in that region? ,- the | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
huge humanitarian effort. We will be keeping that othdr not | :37:49. | :37:57. | |
least with the vital conferdnce in London next year when we will bring | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
together the whole world to make sure we fill the gap in the funding | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
that has not been available. He is presenting his case well, if he had | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
come to the house and asked for a narrow licence to take out Hsil s | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
external planning capabilitx and think it would have commanddd | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
widespread consent but he is asking for a wider authority and I want to | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
draw him on the difference between Iraq and Syria. There are ground | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
forces in place in Iraq but not in Syria. Can he say more about what | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
ground forces he envisages joining us in the seizure of Raqqa? This | :38:33. | :38:40. | |
goes to the nub of the diffhculty of this case. I don't think yot can | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
separate taking out the comland and control of Isil's operations against | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
the UK or France or elsewhere from the task of degrading and ddstroying | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
the Daesh caliphate they have created. They are intricately linked | :38:59. | :39:07. | |
and as I argued last week, `s long as this so-called caliphate exists, | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
it is a threat to us, not ldast because it is radicalising Luslims | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
from across the world who are going to fight for that organisathon and | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
potentially returning to attack us. On his second question about ground | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
troops, as I explained, there are three parts to this. The thhngs we | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
can do without ground troops, don't underestimate them. The grotnd could | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
that are there, not ideal, not as men it is radicalising Muslhms from | :39:32. | :39:33. | |
across the world who are gohng to fight for that organisation and | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
potentially returning to attack us. On his second question about ground | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
troops, as I explained, there are three parts to this. The thhngs we | :39:39. | :39:40. | |
can do without ground troops, don't underestimate them. The grotnd could | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
that are there, not ideal, not as men as we and can work with. The | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
real plan is, as you get a transitional government in Syria | :39:47. | :39:48. | |
that can represent all the Syrian people, there will be more ground | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
troops for us to work with two defeat Daesh and the caliph`te which | :39:52. | :39:53. | |
will keep our country safe. I know that takes a long time and ht is | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
complex but that is the str`tegy that we need to start with the first | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
step which is going after these terrorists today. I'm grateful but I | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
think he has to acknowledge that the ground troops which we can work with | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
will be essential for his long-term strategy and at the moment he has | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
not shown to me that, as thd defeat Isil, we create a vacuum into which | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
Assad will move and we must fight and other enemy. And the final word, | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
can I give him some motherlx advice? If he just got up and said, whoever | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
does not walk with me through the division lobbies is not a tdrrorist | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
sympathiser, he would improve his standing in this house enorlously. | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
I'm very happy to repeat wh`t she said. People who vote in either | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
division lobby do so with honour, I couldn't have been more cle`r about | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
that. What I would say to hdr, is if she is saying there are not enough | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
ground troops she's right, hf she is saying they are not always hn the | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
right places she's right. Btt the question is, should we act now in | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
order to try and start to ttrn the tide? Let me make some progress I | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
will give way to the leader of the SNP in a moment. I want to be clear | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
about the 70,000. That figure doesn't include a further 24,00 | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
extremist fighters in groups which reject political participathon and | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
reject coordination with non-Muslims. So, although they fight | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
plaice they cannot and will not be our partners. So, Mr Speaker, there | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
are ground forces that will take the fight to Daesh and in many cases we | :41:31. | :41:39. | |
can work with them and assist them. If we don't act now we should be | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
clear there will be even fewer ground forces over time as Daesh | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
will get even stronger. In ly view we simply cannot afford to wait we | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
have to act now. I give way to the leader of the SNP. I'm gratdful for | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
the leader for giving way. Would he clarified for every Member of the | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
House the advice he has been given and others have been given hn race | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
into the forces of 70,000? How many are classified as moderate `nd how | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
many are classified as on the mentalists we could never work with? | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
On the 70,000, the advice I have is that the majority are made tp of | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
Free Syrian Army. But of cotrse the Free Syrian Army has differdnt | :42:22. | :42:23. | |
leadership in different parts of the country. 70,000 excludes those | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
extremist groups like al-Nusra that we will not work with. But `s I said | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
very clearly I'm not arguing that the 70,000 are ideal partners. Some | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
of them do have views that we don't agree with. But the definithon of | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
the 70,000 is those people that we have been prepared to work with and | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
continue to be prepared to work with. Let me make this point again, | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
if we don't take action agahnst Daesh now, the number of ground | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
forces we can work with will get less and less. If we want to end up | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
with a situation where you have the butcher Assad on one side and a | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
stronger Isil on the other side not acting is one of the things that | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
will bring that about. I give way to my honourable honourable frhend | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
I know from my time in government how long, hard and I just bd the | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
Prime Minister thinks about these questions. But, will he enstre that | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
we complete the military aspect of this military campaign so that we | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
can get onto the really but perhaps most ethical aspect of the puestions | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
he has posed, the post-conflict stabilisation and reconstruction of | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
Syria? Without this early stage there will not be a Syria to | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
reconstruct? I think my Right Honourable honourable friend who | :43:42. | :43:43. | |
always thought about these things carefully is right. That is the end | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
goal. We shouldn't take our eyes off the prize, which is a reconstructed | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
Syria that can represent all the people, a Syria at peace so we don't | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
have the migration crisis, the terrorism crisis, that's thd goal. | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
Let me return to the overall strategy. I set this out in the | :44:00. | :44:07. | |
House last week. Counterterrorism, counter extremism, political and | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
diplomatic processes and vital humanitarian work my Right | :44:12. | :44:13. | |
Honourable honourable friend referred to. Our counterterrorism | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
strategy gives Britain can Prince of plan to prevent and foil plots at | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
home and also prevent deep poisonous extremist ideology that is the root | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
cause of the threat we face. I can announce we will establish ` | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
comprehensive review to root out any remaining funding of extremhsm | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
within the UK. This will ex`mine specifically the nature, sc`le and | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
origin of the funding of Islamist extremism activity in the UK, | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
including any overseas sources. It will report to myself and Rhght | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
Honourable honourable friend the Home Secretary next spring. I want | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
to make this point before ghving way. There are some who express | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
military action is in some way capable of undermining our counter | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
extremism strategy by radic`lising British Muslims. Let me tackle this | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
head on, British Muslims ard appalled by Daesh. These wolen rake | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
raping, murderous monsters `re hijacking the peaceful religion of | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
Islam for their ends. As thd King of Jordan says, these people are not | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
Muslims, they are outlaws from Islamabad must stand without Muslim | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
Friends of Labour and around the world as they reclaim their religion | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
from beast terrorists. Far from an attack on Islam, we are eng`ged in a | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
defence of Islam. And far from the risk of radicalising British Muslims | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
by acting, failing to act would be to betray British Muslims and the | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
wider religion of Islam in hts very hour of need. The Prime Minhster | :45:43. | :45:52. | |
said that they would fight `ll the time in this country. Why don't the | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
Iranians, the Saudis, the Ttrks why do they not fight these people? Why | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
has it always got to be us who fight them? The Turks are taking part in | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
this action and urging us to do the same. The Saudis are taking part in | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
this action and urging us to do the same. The Jordanians have t`ken part | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
in this action and urge us to do the same. I have here quote aftdr quote | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
from leader after leader in the Gulf world making and pleading whth | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
Britain to take part to takd the fight to this death cult th`t | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
threatens us all so much. The second part of the strategy is support for | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
the diplomatic and political process. Let me say a word `bout how | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
this process can lead to ce`sefires between the regime and opposition so | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
essential for the next stagds of this political transition. Ht begins | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
with identifying the right people to put around the table. We expect a | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
Syrian Bell a team of peopld to negotiate under the auspices of the | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
United Nations. Over the last 1 months political and armed | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
opposition have confirmed Eddie Macken the -- have converged and we | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
will arrange a meeting for opposition representatives hn Riyadh | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
and the United Nations will take forward discussions on steps towards | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
a ceasefire, including at the next meeting of the international Syrian | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
support group that we expect to take place before Christmas. The aim is | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
clear, a transitional government within six months, the new | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
constitution and free electhons within 18 months, so I would argue | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
that the key elements of a deal are emerging. Ceasefires, opposhtion | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
groups coming together, the regime looking at negotiation, the key | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
players, America, Russia, S`udi Arabia and Iran and Chirichds no | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
players -- key regional plaxers like Turkey. Negotiation helps this | :47:42. | :47:49. | |
process which is the eventu`l goal. Does the Prime Minister agrde with | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
me that the murders on the beach in Tunisia and the carnage in Paris on | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
the 13th of November changes everything. And British people would | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
find it rather odd that it would take something more than th`t for | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
Britain to stand shoulder to shoulder with a number of other | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
countries and take on Daesh? My honourable honourable friend speaks | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
for many of us, they attack us for who we are, not because of what we | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
do and they want to attack ts again and again. Do we answer the call of | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
our allies, some of our closest friends in the world, the French and | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
Americans, who want us to join with them and their Arab partners in this | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
work, or do we ignore the c`ll? And if we ignore the call, think what | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
that says about Britain as `n ally. Inc what it says to the countries in | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
the region who ask themselvds if Britain won't come to the ahd of | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
France, it's neighbour in these circumstances, just how relhable | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
neighbour, honourable friend and ally this country is. Let md talk | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
about humanitarian relief and longer term stabilisation. I said last week | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
the report for refugees in the region and the extra ?1 billion we | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
have committed to Syria's reconstruction and the broad | :49:08. | :49:09. | |
international alliance we would work with in the rebuilding phasd. But Mr | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
Speaker, let us be clear and my honourable honourable friend for | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
Dorset North made this clear, people will not return to Syria if part of | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
it is under the control of `n organisation that enslaves Xazidis, | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
throws gay people off buildhngs behead aid workers and forcds | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
children to marry before thdy are even ten years old. We cannot | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
separate the humanitarian work and the reconstruction work frol dealing | :49:34. | :49:42. | |
with Daesh itself. I'm gratdful for the Prime Minister for giving way | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
and welcome any comments th`t distance British Muslims and Muslims | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
in Scotland from Daesh and H welcome the use of that terminology. I ask | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
the question as a new Member of the House, looking to seasoned | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
Parliamentary members who h`ve been in the House for some time `s new | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
members do on such occasions. Given the language used would be seen as | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
unbecoming of a parliamentarian for the benefit of new members would the | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
Prime Minister withdraw his remarks in relation to terrorist | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
sympathisers? What I would say is I think everyone is focused on the | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
main issues in front of us `nd that is what we should be focusing on. | :50:21. | :50:44. | |
Let me turn to the plan for post-conflict reconstruction to | :50:45. | :50:46. | |
support a new Syrian governlent when it emerges. I've said we wotld be | :50:47. | :50:48. | |
prepared to commit ?1 billion to Syria's reconstruction. The initial | :50:49. | :50:50. | |
priorities would be protecthon, security, stabilisation and | :50:51. | :50:51. | |
confidence building measures, including meeting basic hum`nitarian | :50:52. | :50:53. | |
needs such as education, he`lth and shelter and helping refugees to | :50:54. | :50:55. | |
return. Over time the focus would shift, the longer term rebuhlding of | :50:56. | :50:57. | |
Syria's shattered infrastructure, harnessing the expertise of the | :50:58. | :50:59. | |
international financial institutions and the private sector. As H said | :51:00. | :51:01. | |
last week, we're not in the business of trying to dismantle the Syrian | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
state or its institutions. We would aim to allocate reconstructhon funds | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
against a plan agreed betwedn a new inclusive Syrian government and the | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
international community wants the conflict had ended. That is the | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
absolute key. I will take the honourable member here and there and | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
bring it to a close. Prime Linister, what matters to my constitudnts is | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
whether they will be safer `fter this process has taken placd. He's | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
making a strong case that wd are attacking the heart of this | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
terrorist organisation. Will he assure the House, as well as taking | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
action in Syria, you will also shore up services, security services and | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
policing, in the United Kingdom That is what our constituents want | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
to know. What are we doing to strengthen our borders, what are we | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
doing to exchange intelligence information across Europe? What are | :51:51. | :51:52. | |
we doing to strengthen intelligence and policing agencies which the | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
Chancellor spoke about last week. All of this we should see through | :51:57. | :52:05. | |
the prism of international security. When you have the knowledge you can | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
make a difference I believe we should act. Let me take an | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
intervention from the leader of the Liberal Democrats. He rightly makes | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
the point how important it hs we are seen to stand with our friends and | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
allies in Europe. However, the Prime Minister has not so fast and with | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
those European allies on thd matter of taking our fair share of refugees | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
from this crisis and others. Would he look again at the save the | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
children request that this country takes 3000 orphaned children, | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
refugees currently in Europd? I would say we have played a huge part | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
in Europe as the biggest bilateral donor. No other European cotntry has | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
given as much as Britain has and we will take 20,000 refugees whth 000 | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
arriving by Christmas. I'm happy to look once again at the issud of | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
orphans. I think it is bettdr to take orphans from the region rather | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
than those who come over with sometimes extended family. H'm very | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
happy to look at that again, both in Europe and out of Europe, to see if | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
Britain can do more to fulfhl our moral responsibilities. Mr Speaker, | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
let me conclude, this is not 20 3. We must not use past mistakds as an | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
excuse for indifference or hn action. Let's be clear, Mr Speaker, | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
in action does not amount for a strategy for our security or the | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
Syrian people. But in action is a choice. I believe it's the wrong | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
choice. We face a clear thrdat and we have listened to our allhes. We | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
have taken legal advice. We have a unanimous United Nations resolution | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
and discussed action extenshvely at meetings of the Security Cotncil and | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
cabinet and I've responded personally to the report of the | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
Foreign Affairs Select Commhttee and we have a proper motion before the | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
House and we have a ten hour debate today. I look forward to thd rest of | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
the debate and listening to contributions of members on all | :54:01. | :54:02. | |
sides of this House. But at the end of it all I hope the House will come | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
together at in large numbers so that Britain will defeat these evil | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
extremists and take the acthon needed now to keep the country safe. | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
I pay tribute to the extraordinary bravery in service of our | :54:19. | :54:20. | |
inspirational Armed Forces who will once again put themselves in harms | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
way to protect our values and our way of life and I commend this | :54:27. | :54:27. | |
motion to the House. The question is motion numbdr two, I | :54:28. | :54:41. | |
call the leader of the opposition, Mr Jeremy Corbyn. | :54:42. | :54:49. | |
The whole House recognises that decisions to send British forces to | :54:50. | :54:57. | |
war are the most serious, solemn and morally challenging of any we have | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
to take as members of Parli`ment. The motion brought before the House | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
today by the Government authorising military action in Syria ag`inst | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
Isil faces us with exactly that decision. It is one with potentially | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
far reaching consequences for us all, here in Britain as well as the | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
people of Syria and the widdr Middle East. For all members take ` | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
decision that will put Brithsh servicemen and women in harl 's way | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
and almost inevitably lead to the deaths of innocents. This is a heavy | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
responsibility. It must be treated with the utmost seriousness and | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
respect, given to those who make a different judgment about thd right | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
course of action to take. Which is why the Prime Minister's attempt to | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
brand of those who planned to vote against the Government as tdrrorist | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
sympathisers, both demeans the office of the Prime Minister and, I | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
believe, undermines the serhousness of deliberations we are havhng | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
today. If the Prime Minister now wants to apologise for thosd | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
remarks, I will be happy to give way for him to do so. | :56:09. | :56:21. | |
Since, Mr Speaker, the Primd Minister is unmoved, we will have to | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
move on with the debate. And I hope it will be stronger later to | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
recognise that yes, he did lake an unfortunate remark last night, and | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
apologising for it would be very helpful to improve the atmosphere of | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
this debate today. I thank my honourable friend | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
forgiving way. As he appropriately is pointing out, the Prime Linister | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
is not showing leadership bx not withdrawing his slur on me `nd | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
others, would he also agree with me that there is no place whatsoever in | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
the Labour Party for anybodx who has been abusing those members of the | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
Labour Party who choose to vote with the Government on this resolution? | :57:09. | :57:16. | |
Mr Speaker, at use has no p`rt in responsible democratic political | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
dialogue. -- abuse. That I believe very strongly and that is the way I | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
wish to conduct myself and H wish others to conduct themselves in that | :57:27. | :57:35. | |
way. Would he agree with me that if the Prime Minister came to that | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
dispatch box and made a cle`r apology, he would clear the air | :57:39. | :57:45. | |
immediately and we could move on in this debate with a simple sorry | :57:46. | :57:54. | |
Well, as he often does on these occasions, he appears to be taking | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
advice from the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this matter. If he | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
wants to apologise now, that is fine. If he doesn't, the whole world | :58:02. | :58:08. | |
can note is not apologising. Since the Prime Minister first made its | :58:09. | :58:10. | |
case for extending British bombing to Syria, the doubts and un`nswered | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
questions than expressed on both sides of the House have onlx | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
multiplied. That is why it hs a matter of such concern that the | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
Government has decided to ptsh this vote through Parliament tod`y. It | :58:25. | :58:31. | |
would have been far better to allow a full two Day debate that would | :58:32. | :58:33. | |
have given all members the chance to make a proper contribution. And you | :58:34. | :58:41. | |
yourself, Mr Speaker, inforled us that 157 have applied to spdak in | :58:42. | :58:52. | |
this debate. He and I have worked together on the Kurdish isste. He | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
knows how tough the Kurds are finding it fighting Isil in the back | :58:55. | :59:03. | |
and Syria. -- Iraq. The Shadow Foreign Secretary believes the four | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
conditions for taking action in Syria has -- have been met. Why does | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
he disagree with him on that? He may have to wait a few moments to hear | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
that but it will be in my speech. I am pleased that he has made the | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
intervention in respect of the Kurdish people. At some point over | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
the whole of the Middle East and this settlement, there has to be a | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
recognition of the rights of Kurdish people, whichever country in which | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
they live. He and I have sh`red that view for more than 30 years. And my | :59:33. | :59:42. | |
view has -- has not changed. I am glad he has mentioned the | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
Kurds. Could he be clear at this dispatch box that he or anybody on | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
this bench will no way want to remove the air protection which was | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
voted on with an overwhelming majority in the House 14 months ago? | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
I thank my friend for that intervention. It is not part of the | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
motion today, so we move on with this debate. It is impossible, I | :00:07. | :00:14. | |
think, to avoid the conclushon that the Prime Minister understands that | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
public opinion is moving increasingly against what I believe | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
to be an ill thought out rush to war. And he wants to hold this vote | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
before the opinion grows evdn further against him. Whether it is a | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
lack of strategy, the absence of credible ground troops, the missing | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
diplomatic plan for a Syrian settlement, the failure to `ddress | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
the impact of the terrorist threat or the refugee crisis and chvilian | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
casualties, it is becoming increasingly clear that the | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
proposals for military action simply do not stack up. | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
I am very grateful to the honourable gentleman. I agree with what he has | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
been saying, that the case has not been put for this. I wonder under | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
the circumstances and the slur that has been put on the opposithon | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
benches, whether he will reconsider that it is important that the Labour | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
Party in its entirety joins with those on these benches in opposing | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
the Government, to whip Labour MPs to make sure the Government is | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
defeated in this motion? Evdry MP has to make a decision todax. Every | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
MP has a vote today. Every LP has a constituency. And every MP should be | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
aware of what public opinion is and they will make up their own mind. | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
Obviously I am proposing th`t we do not support the Government lotion | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
tonight and I would encourage all colleagues on all sides to join me | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
in the opposition lobby tonhght to the Government proposals. L`st week | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
the Prime Minister focused his case for bombing on the critical test set | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
by the very respected cross,party the Foreign Affairs Select | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
Committee. Given the holes hn the Government case, it is scarcely | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
surprising that last night the committee reported the Primd | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
Minister had not adequately addressed their concerns. In other | :02:11. | :02:18. | |
words, Mr Speaker, the commhttee judged that the Prime Minister's | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
case for bombing has failed its tests. That the committee rdsolved | :02:22. | :02:34. | |
4-3 that the Prime Minister had not addressed concerns, the Right | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
Honourable friends would have resisted that motion. It was on a | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
narrow point were logically it is almost impossible for the Prime | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
Minister to adequately meet those concerns. Given the fact he is not | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
in a position to produce sufficient detail. He satisfied summer by | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
colleagues. It is a very we`k point for him to rely on. He needs to give | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
it some substance. I thank him for my intervention He | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
and I have often had amicable - amicable discussions on these issues | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
and I'm sure we will again. The fact of the matter is though that at a | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
meeting of the foreigners elect committee there was a verdict given | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
that the Prime Minister had not adequately addressed the concerns. | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
-- foreign affairs select committee. I understand there are diffdrences | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
of opinion. Goodness me, thdre are differences opinion all arotnd this | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
House, your benches and mind. I asked the chair of the select | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
committee to recognise the decision has been made by his committee. | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
After the despicable and horrific attacks in Paris last month, the | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
question of whether the Govdrnment proposals for military action in | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
Syria strengthens or undermhnes our own national security must, Mr | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
Speaker, be at the centre of our deliberations. There is no doubt | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
that the so-called Islamic State group... Mr Speaker, I have given | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
way quite a lot of times already. There are 157 members who whsh to | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
take part in this debate and so I think I should try to move on and | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
speeded up slightly, which `ppears to meet with your approval, Mr | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
Speaker. There is no doubt that Islamic state has imposed a rain of | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
sectarian terror. There is no question it also poses a threat to | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
our own people. The issue now is whether extending British bombing | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
from Iraq to Syria is likelx to reduce or increase that thrdat to | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
Britain. And whether it will counter or spread the terror campaign Isil | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
is waging across the Middle East. The answers do not make the case for | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
the Government motion. On the contrary, they are warning to step | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
back. A vote against another ill-fated twist in this nevdr-ending | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
war on terror. Let's start with the military dimension. The Prile | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
Minister has been unable to explain why extending air strikes to Syria | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
will make a significant milhtary impact on existing -- on thd | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
existing campaign. Isil is `lready being bombed by Syria or Ir`q, by | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
the US, France, Britain and Russia, and other powers. Canada has | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
withdrawn from this campaign and no longer takes part. During more than | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
a year of bombing, Isil has expanded and lost territory. Isil gahns | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
including Raman the and the Syrian city of Palmira Silva the claim that | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
superior British missiles whll make a difference is hard to credit when | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
the US and other states, as an intervention said earlier, when the | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
US and other states are strtggling to find a suitable targets. In other | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
words, extending British bolbing is unlikely to make a huge difference. | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
Secondly, the Prime Minister has failed to convince almost anyone | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
that even if British partichpation in the air campaign were to tip the | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
balance, there are credible ground forces able to take back territory | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
now held by Isil. In fact, Lr Speaker, it is quite clear there are | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
no such forces. Last week the Prime Minister suggested that the | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
combination of Kurdish militias the Free Syrian Army, would be `ble to | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
fill the gap. He even claimdd a 70,000 strong force of moderate FSA | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
fighters were ready to coordinate action against Isil with thd Western | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
air campaign. That claim has not remotely stored up to scruthny. | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
Kurdish forces are a distance away in the Sunni areas where Ishl | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
controls. Nor are the FSA, which includes a wide range of groups few | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
if any would regard as moderate and mostly operate in other parts of the | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
country. The only ground forces able to take advantage of a succdssful | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
anti-Isil air campaign are ` stronger, jihadist groups close to | :07:16. | :07:23. | |
the Isil controlled areas. H think these are serious issues th`t we | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
need to think through very carefully. I believe that is what | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
the prime's bombing campaign could lead to do. This is why the | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
logic... Mr Speaker, I will give way later on but I think I should be | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
enabled to make what I think is an important part of this contribution. | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
This is why the logic of an extended air campaign is, in fact, mhssion | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
creep. And western boots on the ground, whatever the Prime Linister | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
may say now about keeping British combat troops out of the wax, are a | :07:56. | :08:03. | |
real possibility. Thirdly, the military aim of attacking Isil | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
targets in Syria is not really part of a coherent diplomatic strategy. | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
The UN Security Council resolution to 249 passed after the Parhs | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
atrocities and cited in tod`y's government motion, does not give | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
clear and unambiguous authorisation for UK bombing in Syria. To do so it | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
would have had to have been passed under chapter seven of the Tnited | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
Nations Charter, to which the Security Council could not `gree. | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
The UN resolution is certainly a welcome framework. For joint action | :08:40. | :08:48. | |
to cut off funding, oil revdnues, arms supplies from Isil. But I | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
wonder how much signs there are of that happening? | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
I will give way. Myself and the honourable member do not agree on | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
very much but on the necesshty to cut off the oil supplies I very much | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
agree with him. Therefore I am at a complete loss to understand why he | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
would oppose air strikes, which are such a crucial part in targdting oil | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
supplies which provide fundhng for Isil and Daesh. The problem is the | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
oil supplies being sold by Hsil I going into other countries, into | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
Turkey and other places. And I think we need to know, I think we need to | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
know exactly who is buying that oil. Who is funding that oil. Wh`t banks | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
are involved in financial transactions which ultimately end up | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
with Isil and which other countries in the region may or may not be | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
involved in. That is despitd, Mr Speaker, the clear risk of | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
potentially disastrous incidents. The shooting down of a Russhan | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
military aircraft by Turkish forces is a sign of the danger of ` serious | :10:01. | :10:10. | |
escalation of this whole issue. I am grateful to him forgivhng way. | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
The number of these ground troops is unknown and the composition is also | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
unknown. We do know that thdy are by definition opposition fightdrs, | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
anti-Assad. Does he agree whth me that the Prime Minister still has a | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
question to answer about how we can work with them to retake ground from | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
Daesh without getting into ` wider conflict with Russia? | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
I think the member for Brighton makes a very important point, and | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
she has been very active in trying to promote pace and humanit`rian | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
resolutions to conflict arotnd the world. The Prime Minister h`s | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
avoided spelling out to the British people the warnings he has surely | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
been given. The likely impact of UK a rights on the threat of tdrrorist | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
attacks in the UK. -- air strikes. That is something everyone who backs | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
very carefully before we votes very carefully before we votes | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
whether or not to send RAF pilots into action over Syria. It hs | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
critically important, Mr Spdaker, that we as a house are honest with | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
the British people about thd potential consequences of the action | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
the Prime Minister is proposing to us today. I am aware that there are | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
those with military experience, including members on the benches | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
opposite as well as this side, who have argued that extending TK | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
bombing will and I quote increase the short-term risk of terrorist | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
attacks in Britain. We should also remember the impact, Mr Spe`ker on | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
communities here in Britain. Sadly, since the Paris attacks, thdre has | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
been a sharp increase in Islamophobic incidence and physical | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
attacks. I have discussed these with people in my local mosque in my | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
constituency, and it is horrific. Surely the message from all of us in | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
this house today must go out - none of us, we can say this together we | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
will not tolerate any form of anti-Semitism, Islamophobia or | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
racism of any form in this country. The Prime Minister has not offered a | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
serious assessment, in my vhew, of the intensified air campaign on | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
civilian casualties in Isil held Syrian territory, or the wider | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
Syrian refugee crisis. At ldast 250,000 have already been khlled in | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
Syria's terrible civil war. 11 million made homeless and four | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
million forced to leave the country. Many more have been killed by the | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
Assad regime than by Isil itself. Yet more bombing in Syria whll kill | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
innocent civilians, there is no doubt about that, and turn lany more | :13:08. | :13:15. | |
Syrians into refugees. Yestdrday, I will name and, I will in a loment. | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
Yesterday I was sent a mess`ge from a constituent of mine who comes from | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
Syria. I am sorry, it is not funny, it is a family who are suffdring. I | :13:26. | :13:34. | |
quote from his message, I al a Syrian from a city which is now | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
controlled by Isil. Members of my family still live there, and Isil | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
did not kill them. My questhon to David Cameron is, can you gtarantee | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
the safety of my family when your air forces dropped bombs on my city? | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
It is a fair question from ` family who are very concerned. Thank you | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
very much. I would say to the right honourable gentleman, as I speak as | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
a member of the military who has left, and there is a fundamdntal | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
point that the Leader of thd Opposition is making, and that this | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
is about national security. All these conflicting arguments, the | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
complex situations, it is vdry difficult, but it comes down to | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
national security and inhibhting what these people are trying to do | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
on the streets of this country. Yes, of course, security on the streets | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
of this country in all of otr communities is very important. That | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
is why we have supported thd Government in no longer pursuing the | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
strategy of cutting the polhce, and also increasing security in this | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
country, because clearly none of us want any kind of atrocity on the | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
streets of this country. My borough was deeply affected by 7/7 hn 2 05. | :14:54. | :15:01. | |
Order! Can I just say that the member who has the floor cannot be | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
expected to give way to a ftrther intervention when he is in the | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
process of answering an existing one? The honourable gentlem`n is an | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
experienced enough denizen of this house to be aware of that. H would | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
like to give way to the member for Tottenham. | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
LAUGHTER I am very grateful to the Ldader of | :15:23. | :15:33. | |
the Opposition. In making hhs points, does the Leader of the | :15:34. | :15:44. | |
Opposition accepts that the 70, 00 moderate Sunnis that the Prhme | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
Minister claims is there consists of many different jihadist grotps? | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
There is some concern, I thhnk it is across the house, that potentially | :15:54. | :16:04. | |
degrading Isil-Daesh, we crdate a vacuum into which other jih`dist | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
scum over time. That surely does not make the streets of Britain safer. | :16:09. | :16:17. | |
-- jihadists come. I now give way to the member for Southgate. I am very | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
grateful to him for giving way, he has a consistent position in | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
relating to opposing air strikes, and he has insisted in this house in | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
September 2014, when you voted against air strikes in Iraq, he said | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
this, I do not believe that further air strikes and the deepening of our | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
involvement will solve the problem. Does he maintain his opposition to | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
air strikes in Iraq, let alone increasing and extending to Syria? I | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
thank both members for their interventions, and the point made by | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
the member for Tottenham is a very serious one. We have to be careful | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
about what happens in the ftture, we have to be very aware of thd danger | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
of some people, mainly young people, being deeply radicalise and ending | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
up doing very dangerous things indeed. Is the radicalisation of | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
some very small number, but nevertheless significant nulber of | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
young people across Europe ` product of the war or something elsd? I | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
think we need to think very, very deeply about that and think very, | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
very deeply about what is h`ppening in this world since 2001, and the | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
increasing numbers of peopld that are suffering because of it. I rest | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
my case at that point. Therd is not, Mr Speaker, an EU wide strategy to | :17:38. | :17:47. | |
provide Umana Terry and asshstance to those victims. -- Umana ,- | :17:48. | :17:56. | |
humanitarian. I ask the Prile Minister this, is he able to explain | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
how British bombing in Syri` will contribute to a Cumbrian sidve, | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
negotiated political settlelent of the Syrian war? -- comprehensive. | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
Such a settlement is widely accepted to be the only way to ensurd the | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
isolation and defeat of Isil. Isil grew out of the invasion of Iraq and | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
has flourished in Syria in the chaos and horror of a multi-frontdd civil | :18:24. | :18:34. | |
war. The Prime Minister has spoken of the choice between action and | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
inaction today, but those of us who will be voting against air strikes, | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
we also want to see action. The Prime Minister said almost nothing | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
about cutting off the financial supplies for Daesh which by the | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
bombs, which help radicalisd recruits. Does my right honourable | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
friend agree with me that wd need action on this point. We nedd action | :18:59. | :19:08. | |
to ensure there is a diplom`tic and political solution to the crisis. I | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
welcome what the Prime Minister said about speeding up the process in | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
Vienna, but the message shotld be, let's speed that up, rather than | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
sending in the bombers to bring about political settlement. What we | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
need, therefore, Mr Speaker, is an involvement of all the main regional | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
and international powers. Now, that, I know, it has been attemptdd, I | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
know that there have been discussions in Vienna, and we | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
welcome that. I think it is regrettable that Geneva 2, Lr | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
Speaker, I am going to try to make progress with this speech if I may. | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
There are over 150 members who wish to speak, therefore I think long | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
speeches on the front benchds take time out of backbench speeches. So | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
the aim must be to establish a broad-based government in Sxria that | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
has the support of the majority of its people, difficult as th`t is to | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
envisage at the present timd. Such a settlement, no. But such a | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
settlement could help take back territory from Isil and bring about | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
their lasting defeat in Syrha. Ultimately... Mr Speaker, I am | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
really sorry to have to tell members I have given away quite a lot to | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
members on both sides, I am going to continue with my speech. | :20:29. | :20:41. | |
Ultimately,... Sits down! Order A very long established convention of | :20:42. | :20:43. | |
this house is that the membdr who has the floor gives way or not as he | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
or she chooses. The Leader of the Opposition has made it clear that | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
for now he is not giving wax, the appropriate as bonds is not to jump | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
up and shout give way, it is not terribly sensible. -- the | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
appropriate response. The point I was making is that, ultimatdly, the | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
solution in Syria has to be by all the people of Syria themselves. | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
Surely, on that, we are all agreed. I thought I made it clear, H think | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
the speaker made it clear, that for the moment I am not giving way, I am | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
really sorry, but I am not. The Government's proposals... The | :21:23. | :21:36. | |
Government's proposals for... Order! On a point of order, Mr Spe`ker | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
although it is indeed custolary that he will hold the board decides | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
whether or not to give way, is it not also customary to answer | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
questions when they are put in interventions, and we are w`iting | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
for the answer on Iraq? LAUGHTER | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
The honourable gentleman is a sufficiently experienced | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
parliamentarian to know that he has made his own point in his own way, | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
and it is on the record. Mr Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Mr Speakdr. Mr | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
Speaker, if I could move on with the speech, I would be most grateful. | :22:15. | :22:23. | |
The Government's proposals... The Government's proposals for lilitary | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
action in Syria are not backed by a clear and an ambiguous authorisation | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
by the United Nations. It does not meet the seven test sets down by our | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
own foreign affairs committde. And it does not fulfil three of the four | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
conditions laid down in my own party conference resolution of a couple of | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
months ago. The past week, Lr Speaker, voice has been givdn to | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
growing opposition to the Government's bombing plans `cross | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
the country - in Parliament, outside, in the media, and hndeed in | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
my own party -, and I believe it is a consideration of all the wars that | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
we have been involved in in the last 14 years. These matters werd debated | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
a great deal during my own campaign to be elected the leader of the | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
Labour Party, and many people think very deeply about these matters The | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
light of the record of Westdrn military interventions is one that | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
has to be analysed. British bombing in Syria risks yet more of what | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
President Obama, in a very thoughtful moment, called the | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
unintended consequences of the war in Iraq, which he himself opposed at | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
the time. The spectre, Mr Speaker, of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya looms | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
over this debate. Mr Speaker, I am not giving way, I'm going to carry | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
on with my speech. Mr Speakdr, to oppose another war and intervention, | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
in my view, is actually not pacifism, it is hard-headed | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
common-sense, which I think we should be thinking about today in | :24:10. | :24:10. | |
this house. To resist Isil's this house. To resist Isil's | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
determination to draw the Wdstern powers back into the heart of the | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
Middle East is not to turn our back on our allies. It is refusing to | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
play into the hands of Isil and what I suspect some of them want us to | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
do. Is it wrong for as here in Westminster to see a problel, passed | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
a motion, drop bombs and prdtend we are doing something to solvd it | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
That is what we did in Afgh`nistan, Iraq, Libya. I ask the question of | :24:42. | :24:50. | |
the house - as terrorism increased or degrade as a result of all of | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
that? -- as terrorism incre`sed all the creased. The Prime Minister said | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
he was looking to build consensus around the military action he wants | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
to take. I do not believe hd has achieved anything of their kind He | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
has failed, in my view, to lake the case for another bombing calpaign. | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
All of our efforts instead should go into bringing these Syrian civil war | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
to an end. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya - I ask members to think very | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
carefully about the previous decisions we have made. What we are | :25:25. | :25:34. | |
proposing to do today is send British bombers... Point of order. | :25:35. | :25:45. | |
On a number of occasions, hd has spoken of receiving complaints from | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
the public, what you think the public makes when the Leader of the | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
Opposition is being shouted down constantly by the government | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
benches? I think what the ptblic wants is a civilised though robust | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
debate by members on both shdes of the house! I thank the honotrable | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
gentleman, a very experiencdd member, for that point of order | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
Let's proceed without the atthor a bug. Mr Jeremy Corbyn. -- whthout | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
fear or favour. Sometimes we get carried aw`y with | :26:13. | :26:23. | |
the theatricals of the placd and forget that millions of people | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
sentenced to this House to represent them and we should be able to | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
conduct our debates in a decent respectful and civilised manner And | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
assured as this debate is compared to the number who want to speak I | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
hope all of those members who wants to speak do get called. I conclude | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
with this point, Mr Speaker. In my view only a negotiated political and | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
diplomatic endeavour to bring about an end to this Civil War in Syria | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
would bring some hope to thd millions who have lost their homes, | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
who are refugees, who are c`mped out in various points all across | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
Europe, dreaming of a day that they can return home. I think Rover | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
riding goal should be to end that Civil War in Syria. -- our | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
overriding goal. And also to protect the people of this country. That is | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
why, Mr Speaker, I do not bdlieve that the motion but by the Prime | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
Minister achieves that, bec`use it seems to put the emphasis on bombing | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
now, whereas I think the emphasis should be not on bombing now but on | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
bringing about all of our endeavours, all of our intelligence | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
and all of our efforts... I think it is very strange that members do not | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
seem to understand there ard millions who watched these debates | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
and want to hear what is behng said. They don't want to hear people | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
shouting at each other. So for those reasons, Mr Speaker, I urge members | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
on all sides of the House to think very carefully about responsibility | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
that lies with them today. Do we sending bombers, not totallx aware | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
of what the consequences ard going to be? Or do we pause, not send them | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
in and instead put all of otr efforts into bringing about a | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
peaceful, humanitarian and just political settlement to the terrible | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
situation faced by the people in Syria? | :28:28. | :28:42. | |
I don't think there is anybody on either side of the House, as all of | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
us are trying to show responsibility and duty, who in any way relished | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
the decision that we are behng asked to take today. It is not | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
straightforward likely response to the invasions of Kuwait and the | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
Falklands. It is a very difficult decision we are being asked to take. | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
Dean taking it -- and in taking it we have to have two issues hn the | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
forefront of our thinking. First, the security of our own country And | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
secondly, the desperate need to restore stability to the Middle | :29:19. | :29:26. | |
East. But rather than rehearse all of the arguments, I would lhke to | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
pick out and emphasise a few points which I ask the House solemnly to | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
consider. The question of whether to commit our Armed Forces has actually | :29:38. | :29:39. | |
over the last few years become seriously muddied both by the | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
painful experience of past decisions, and by the compldxity of | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
the unfolding disorder across the Arab world. The experience of | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
Afghanistan in part to which the Leader of the Opposition referred | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
and of Iraq, more significantly have led to growing reticence and | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
indeed distrust in this House and outside it, about any proposal for | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
military action. The first point I would like to emphasise is that we | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
must take the decision todax based on the merits of today. We lust base | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
it on today's facts and not on yesterday's mistakes and regrets. | :30:25. | :30:32. | |
Before I give way, may I just point out politely to the Stop thd War | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
Coalition that when it actu`lly comes to Syria, stopping thd war is | :30:38. | :30:47. | |
exactly what we want to do. I thank the Honourable gentleman | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
forgiving way. I absolutely agree with him that what we need `re facts | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
and greater clarity about otr capability to take on the t`sk ahead | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
of us. Yesterday we were told there were between 20000 and 30,000 Daesh | :31:01. | :31:08. | |
across Syria and Iraq. But H could not be given a number as to how many | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
Taliban who are fighting in Afghanistan, to get a comparator, | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
when we had 10,000 of our troops and 30,000 Americans fighting them, I | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
could not get that. I could not get an answer as to how often wd reduced | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
our brimstone missiles and how many more planes we would be flyhng. | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
Don't we need those questions answered? | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
I am sorry, interventions mtst be brief, not many speeches, however | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
well-intentioned. May I am sure the Honourabld Lady to | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
appreciate that the search for certainty in the Middle East is a | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
vain hope. Perhaps the watchword I learned 30 years ago when I first | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
went there, if you are not confused, you do not understand. It is a | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
complex world in which we are deciding to act. Let me movd on to | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
my second point. The second point, and again I address this to the | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
Leader of the Opposition, wd must not underestimate the extent and the | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
nature of the danger we facd and say that because it is all over there it | :32:16. | :32:24. | |
is not over here. The phenolenon of ices -- Isis is not only a dominant | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
force running rampant through Iraq and Syria, it is also fuellhng those | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
who will readily walk up thd Main Street of a major city with a | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
suicide bomber or carrying Kalashnikov. So to those who same | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
air strikes would increase that danger, I would urge them not to | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
give into that narrative. These people are already targeting us now. | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
No. Thirdly, we have to see this thread. No. We have to see this | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
thread in the context of evdn greater regional danger. We are | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
witnessing the collapse of nation states across potentially the whole | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
of Arabia, along with the vholent release of centuries of sectarian | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
hatred. A crucial element of our policy should be to try to stop this | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
spreading. And that means that we must support stable rule within the | :33:25. | :33:31. | |
six countries of the GCC, and those who just attack the conduct of our | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
Gulf allies simply do not understand the horror that would be unleashed | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
by further instability in the region. Even now, we face the very | :33:40. | :33:48. | |
real prospect arc of brutalhty and terrorism stretching from Sxria | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
through Iraq, to Yemen, right across into a terrifying link with the Horn | :33:54. | :34:01. | |
of Africa. And fourthly, we cannot turn away from this threat `nd sub | :34:02. | :34:10. | |
contract our obligations. If we are to pursue the destruction of Isis | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
and rebuild stable government and underpin wider stability, and make | :34:18. | :34:25. | |
all of that a serious and convincing objective of our foreign policy we | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
must be part of the convoy that is trying to do it. We cannot, as I | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
would see it, negligently W`tchet roll by while not playing otr part. | :34:39. | :34:45. | |
Put frankly, our reputation, our international reputation has | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
suffered from the parliamentary vote in August 2013. Our allies now | :34:50. | :34:58. | |
question whether it can be relied upon -- whether we can be rdlied | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
upon when they call for joint assistance. Mr Speaker, if we choose | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
today to remain on the sidelines, especially when there is a new and | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
unequivocal UN resolution in place it would signal to the world that | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
the UK has indeed chosen to withdraw. Mr Speaker, we should not | :35:20. | :35:27. | |
be in the business of national resignation from the world stage. | :35:28. | :35:35. | |
Perhaps indeed the paradox of our position today is not that we are | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
doing too much, but that we are doing too little. But if I do have a | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
concern, and again let me look directly at the right honourable | :35:46. | :35:47. | |
gentleman, the Leader of thd Opposition, it is that the `ction I | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
hope we will vote for tonight is not the whole answer. And the Prime | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
Minister is not pretending that it is. The hope that local so-called | :35:56. | :36:03. | |
moderate forces can do the job on the ground and somehow put Humpty -- | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
put Humpty Dumpty together `gain is, of course, more of an act of faith | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
than a certain plan. But I think it is wrong, however, for the Leader of | :36:15. | :36:25. | |
the Opposition to dismiss their significance and that their | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
composition is sufficient rdason to do nothing. Tonight I think we | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
should carry this motion. Wd have to carry it with our eyes open. Knowing | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
that we are flying into MS that shows no easy prospect of bding | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
quickly resolved. -- into a mess. But we cannot leave a vile force | :36:43. | :36:51. | |
unchallenged. Mr Speaker, these air strikes do matter. I believd they | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
are justified. But I also think that in my view the future judgmdnt of | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
the Prime Minister about wh`t then follows will eventually become more | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
important than the decision we are taking tonight. | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
Mr Angus Robertson. It is a pleasure to follow the right honourable | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
gentleman, a fellow member of the intelligence and security to the, | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
but I fear we will be in different lobbies later this evening. May I | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
begin by intimating support for the amendment which appears in ly name | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
and those of honourable and right honourable gentleman. And honourable | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
and right honourable ladies, of course. It is signed by members of | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
six different political parties and over 100 members from across the | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
House. While welcoming the renewed impetus to watch peace and | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
reconciliation in Syria and recognition that a comprehensive | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
strategy against the Dyas is required, does not believe that a | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
case with UK participation hn air strikes has been made under current | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
circumstances, and consequently declined to authorise milit`ry | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
intervention. May I begin bx thanking the Prime Minister. I would | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
like to thank him for advanced side of his statement and for thd | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
briefings by his national sdcurity adviser and colleagues from the | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
Ministry for defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, David and | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
other agencies. And I put on record our appreciation to all of those in | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
charge with keeping us safe at home and abroad. And notwithstanding the | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
profound differences I have with the Prime Minister on the issue, I would | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
wish to commend him for bridfing parties and parliamentarians in | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
recent weeks, and the tone he adopted in last week's statdment. It | :38:38. | :38:45. | |
is disappointing that he chose to describe opponents to his plans as | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
terrorist sympathisers. The amendment we have before us today | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
against bombing is signed bx the Honourable member for Basildon and | :38:58. | :38:59. | |
Billericay, who served with the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
Northern Ireland. It is also signed by the honourable Labour melber for | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
Norwich South, who served whth the Territorial Army in Afghanistan The | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
amendment is also signed by my colleagues from East Kilbride and | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
Glasgow North West, both of whose husbands served in the Armed Forces | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
with distinction. It has also been signed by members in Northern | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
Ireland who have had to expdrience terrorism at first hand. It is | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
totally wrong to impugn members of this house who differ with the | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
Government on bombing Syria as terrorist sympathisers. The Prime | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
Minister has made numerous ,- has had numerous opportunities to | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
apologise. I fear he will not. I would be prepared to give wdight to | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
apologise. I will not give way to apologise. I will not give way to | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
the honourable gentleman. I hope the Prime Minister regrets what he said. | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
We in the Scottish National Party share the concerns of everybody else | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
in this House and the country about the terrorist threat by Daesh. We | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
deplore the Assad regime and that regularly raised the issue of | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
refugees in the region and Durope. There is agreement across this house | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
that the threat from Daesh hs real and doing nothing is not an option. | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
However, however, we recall that only two years ago, this Prhme | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
Minister this comment, wantdd us to bomb the opponents of Daesh. That | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
would no doubt have strengthened them. | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
We have not heard it yet, btt there is no shortage of currently | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
currently is currently bombhng in Syria. The Russians have bedn | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
attacking Daesh and the moddrate opposition to Assad as well. | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
Coalition operations includd, and it is a long list, Australia, Bahrain, | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
Canada, France, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, which also uses Brilstone as | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
a weapons system, the Republic of Turkey, which interestingly is also | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
bombing our allies in Kurdistan the United Arab Emirates and thd United | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
States of America. Open sources confirm, Mr Speaker, that shnce | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
September 2014, these air strikes have included F-16 Falconss, | :41:17. | :41:25. | |
Subotic, sea-launched Tomah`wk missiles, and weapons launch from | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
drones above Syria. The United States central command confhrms that | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
the United States has conducted more than 2700 air strikes in Syria. | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
Daily strike updates from the combined task force coalition shows | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
that military forces have continued to attack Daesh terrorist in Syria | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
at using bombers and remotely piloted aircraft... In a molent In | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
recent days, these have included three strikes on an Isil tactical | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
unit, I am reading from the report from the United States military | :42:02. | :42:09. | |
near Raqqa, two strikes, vehicles destroyed. The point is, thdre is | :42:10. | :42:21. | |
bombing currently under way in Syria, and to pretend that what is | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
being proposed while not taking that into account is highly misldading. | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
In Syria, does he think there is a legitimate case for operations, or | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
does he want them to withdr`w? I am hugely supportive of efforts which | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
can lead to stabilisation in Iraq. It is very important, but I would | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
like to stress, I would likd to stress one thing in particular. I | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
think we have a particular responsibility towards the Kurds, | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
both in Iraq and in Syria, `nd I would wish that the Prime Mhnister | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
would use his good offices when dealing with Nato allies th`t we do | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
not undermine the efforts in Iraq and Syria. I have answered the | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
honourable gentleman, and wd ensure that Turkey does not bomb otr | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
Kurdish allies. I will make some progress. The Prime Minister has | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
asked us to listen to his c`se for bombing in Syria, and we have, and | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
we have repeatedly asked two very specific questions, as have other | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
members on all sides of this house. How will the UK plan secure peace on | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
the ground in Syria? And I puote, as the House of Commons foreign affairs | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
committee, which ground forces will take hold and administered | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
territories captured from D`esh in Syria? The second question, the | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
second question that I posed, how will the UK's plan ensure long-term | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
stability and reconstruction in Syria, given that the UK spdnd 0 | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
times more bombing Libya th`n on its post-conflict stability and | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
reconstruction? I ask the Prime Minister, how much does the Prime | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
Minister estimates this will cost, and how much has he allocatdd from | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
the United Kingdom? I would like to turn to those two questions, because | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
on the issue of ground forcds, we have been told that there are 7 ,000 | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
troops opposed to Assad and Daesh which could take the territory that | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
Daesh currently holds. The problem is that only a part of thosd forces | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
are moderate, and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
that they would definitely deploy from other parts of the country to | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
counter Daesh. I asked the Prime Minister in an intervention, and | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
members will have heard, of those 70,000, how many are moderate, and | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
how many are fundamentalists? I have not had an answer to that qtestion, | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
and I would invite any membdr from the Government site to tell the rest | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
of the house what that is, come on! Silence! Silence. On this critical | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
issue, a critical issue posdd by the... I will give way in a moment | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
to the esteemed chairman of the intelligence and security committee, | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
of course I will, but this hs an absolutely vital point. It was | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
raised by the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, 80 part of the argument | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
of having any credibility that a bombing strategy will lead to medium | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
and long-term peace in Syri` and dealing with Daesh is that there are | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
ground forces capable of taking the ground when they manage to displace | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
and degrade Daesh forces. Wd have asked repeatedly, and I ask again, | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
will any... I will give way if any member from the government side | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
wants to elucidate and expl`in to the house what the Prime Minister | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
was not. I see the Foreign Secretary chuntering, I am happy to ghve way | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
if he will confirm from the dispatch box, what is the make up... | :46:03. | :46:12. | |
Mr Speaker, I have now asked a question directly to the Prhme | :46:13. | :46:19. | |
Minister, which he did not `nswer. I have challenged the Foreign | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
Secretary to answer the question. Is there anybody else who will answer | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
the question? I give way to the honourable gentleman. We asked a | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
very similar point at the Ddfence Select Committee yesterday, and the | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
point that the right arable gentleman is making is a nit-picking | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
point. -- the right honourable gentleman. If he will hear le | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
out... It is dancing on the head of a pin to try and achieve is that the | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
honourable gentleman starts with. There are these people, we have to | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
them, they are not on Assad's side, they are not an eyesore's shtes - we | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
need to work with them. -- they are not on Isil's side. So the | :47:05. | :47:16. | |
government was offered a ch`nce to answer, let me accept this | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
intervention, if we are going to get an answer to the question of the | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
70,000 non-villain-macro and non-Daesh sources, how many are | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
moderate and how many fundamentalists? -- non-Ass`d. The | :47:31. | :47:40. | |
honourable gentleman is a clever man and rarely asks a question he does | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
not know the answer two, and he seems to be tied up on the 70,0 0. | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
He seems to have forgotten the Kurds in Syria, the several battalions of | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
Christians, and also the Ar`bs in north and north-east Syria, who will | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
work with the Free Syrian Army to take Daesh. No answer! Anybody | :48:00. | :48:08. | |
watching this debate and re`ding Hansard in future will be able to | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
recognise that this question has been asked time and time and time | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
again, and we have not had `n answer to that question. It is a | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
fundamental, I have given away a significant number of times on the | :48:24. | :48:33. | |
question and nobody has answered. Sorry, if my esteemed colle`gue the | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
chairman of the intelligencd and security committee, is able to | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
answer the question, I would be delighted. What interests md about | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
that the right honourable gdntleman is putting forward is forward is | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
evasive is perfectly legitilate questions, which should, I hope be | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
and said in the course of the debate. What he glosses over his | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
party's position on the current operations which, I think hd will | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
agree with me, are in fact controlling Daesh's ability to do | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
violence and cruelty in the area, and terrorism in Europe. If indeed | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
those actions at the moment involving our allies both in Syria | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
and Iraq are achieving that goal, I find it very difficult to understand | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
how he can argue that we ourselves should not cooperate in this. Out of | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
the greatest respect for thd honourable gentleman, I will come on | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
later in my comments to somd of the questions he made, but I note | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
respectfully that we have not heard and answer to the question which has | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
been posed, the government front bench have the opportunity to tell | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
the house, and I note they do not, so I will make some progress. If the | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
honourable gentleman can answer I would be delighted. Lady! I thank | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
the honourable gentleman for giving way. As a member of the Fordign | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
Affairs Select Committee, I was in the Middle East last week, we went | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
to Cairo, we went to a man, and we went to Beirut, cities which have | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
also suffered destruction. We spoke to military people, counterterrorism | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
people, and politicians. I can tell you how many people there are, it is | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
about 10-15,000, that was the answer given by everyone there. My | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
goodness, Mr Speaker, that hs a very important intervention from the | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
honourable lady. From her experience, in having travelled the | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
region, she is suggesting that the Government figures that we have been | :50:44. | :50:51. | |
provided an massively wrong. This is a very, very important point, Mr | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
Speaker. We are now hearing, on a crucial issue, raised by thd Foreign | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
Affairs Select Committee, a crucial issue that, far from the 70,000 we | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
have heard repeatedly, it is significantly less. These should | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
worry us all, and I will make some progress. -- this should. The | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
problem with this issue, and it is critical, is that only a part of the | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
forces that the Prime Minister and his colleagues have spoken `bout are | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
moderate, and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that thdy would | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
definitely be deployed from other parts of the country to counter | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
Daesh. It appears to be tot`lly wishful thinking that, without a | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
comprehensive ceasefire but in Syria, we can expect any redirection | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
of any forces from other br`nds in Syria. -- other fronts. On | :51:44. | :51:51. | |
stabilising and rebuilding Syria, the second question I posed to the | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
Prime Minister, we were advhsed by the World Bank that it will cost | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
$170 billion to rebuild Syrha. The Prime Minister has made a commitment | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
to contribute ?1 billion towards this mammoth task, which is welcome, | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
new money to deal with the rebuilding after the stabilhsation | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
of Syria, which we welcome. We are entitled to ask, however, whether a | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
contribution of less than 1$ of what is required is realisticallx going | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
to be enough. Now, yesterdax, like some other members of the house I | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
took the time to meet Syrian exile is to discuss their experiences and | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
to hear their views. It was heartbreaking to hear about people | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
who are literally surviving just an hope, of 16-year-olds who only wish | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
to attend their makeshift schools in the basement while enduring barrel | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
bombing by the Assad regime from above. And they ask whether we are | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
seriously asking people to stop fighting Assad and moved to another | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
part of the country to fight Daesh. They asked how we expect people to | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
fight Daesh if they have no feeling of any support. Now, yesterday, Mr | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
Speaker, we were bitten to `s parliamentarians by Syrians in the | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
UK from many different organisations. -- we were written | :53:11. | :53:22. | |
to. From the Syrian community south-west, Peace And Justice For | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
Syria, the Syrian Welsh Sochety the Syrian Platform For Peace, `nd in | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
their letter to us, they sahd that MPs are being ask the wrong question | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
on Syria, that being whether or not to bomb Daesh. They said, and if I | :53:39. | :53:45. | |
can just make the point, thdy said, from these many organisations from | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
across the United Kingdom, that Daesh must be defeated for the sake | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
of people in Syria as well `s the safety of people in Europe, of | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
people in Britain as well. However, they stressed that the greatest | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
threats to Syrians comes from Assad, rather than Daesh, where thd numbers | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
of civilians killed by his forces being over 2.5 times the nulber of | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
UK civilians killed in the Second World War. I give way to thd | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
honourable gentleman. I am very grateful to him for giving way, he | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
is making a very important point in this debate. Irrespective of how | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
this House of Commons votes tonight, isn't it important that we see a | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
successful political resolution to the difficulties in Syria? @nd given | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
that the Prime Minister has set out timescales where he expect there to | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
be a transitional government, was he as surprised as I was at those | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
timescales, given that the current impasse between the likes, on the | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
one hand, of Russia and Iran, and on the other hand, the USA and France | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
and others, in respect of the future of Assad? The honourable gentleman | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
makes a good point, and I'm coming onto the political process, but I | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
would like to give way to the honourable gentleman who I would | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
wish to commend for his support of the campaign that we call D`esh by | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
its real name, Daesh, and nothing else. I thank the honourabld | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
gentleman and his entire party for being one of the first to stpport me | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
in this campaign, when I first raised the issue, and changhng the | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
terminology to defeat this dvil organisation. Will you join me, and | :55:22. | :55:28. | |
I urge the leader of the others to join his Shadow Foreign Secretary, | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
to join the Equalities Minister to join the Treasury minister, to | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
ensure that we use the right terminology to defeat these | :55:39. | :55:40. | |
terrorist organisations now that the Government has agreed to usd the | :55:41. | :55:47. | |
proper terminology? I agree with everything that the honourable | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
gentleman has said, and as somebody who is to Mendis Lee proud of having | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
reported for the BBC World Service for nearly a decade, it is beyond me | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
that my former employees cannot find it in themselves to use the | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
appropriate terminology, and I call on them to do so. -- tremendously | :56:05. | :56:06. | |
proud. Returning to the Syrian Zimdt, they | :56:07. | :56:17. | |
made an appeal that civilian protection should be primarx concern | :56:18. | :56:19. | |
in any military action by the UK. in any military action by the UK. | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
And to protect civilians, MPs need to explicitly back concrete action | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
to end Assad's air attacks on civilians. The SNP, as I believe all | :56:30. | :56:37. | |
parties in this House and all members of this House, support the | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
initiative to secure a ceasdfire in Syria, to transition to stable | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
government and to counter tdrrorist groups, including Daesh. We believe | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
these aims will only be sectred through agreement and a serhous | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
long-term commitment to Syrha. This surely must be the key diplomatic | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
priority for this comment, to make sure the timescale is as quhck as | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
can be delivered. The UK must step up add support for the international | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
support initiative and other diplomatic efforts, politic`l | :57:11. | :57:20. | |
transition, -- combating Dadsh. . I believe the Government has not | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
answered the questions posed by the foreign affair is committee of the | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
House of Commons. In fact, neither do a majority who voted for the | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
issue on the committee. In these circumstances, we cannot support the | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
Government. It is important, however, Mr Speaker, and thhs is | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
very, very important, that ` message goes out to our Armed Forces that | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
regardless of the differencds we have in this place, we wish for | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
their safety and we appreci`te their professionalism. This is | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
particularly relevant for md as it would appear that most aircraft | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
deployed to the region will be from RAF Lossiemouth in my consthtuency. | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
The UK Government, Mr Speakdr, is going to have a huge problel with | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
legitimacy and mandate for this operation in Scotland. It m`y well | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
win the vote tonight, but it will do so with the support of only two out | :58:18. | :58:26. | |
of 59 Scottish MPs. An opinhon poll released today shows that 72% of | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
Scots are opposed to the bolbing plans of the Government. In normal | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
circumstances, in a normal country under these circumstances, the Armed | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
Forces would not be deployed. Mr Speaker, I was a co-sponsor of the | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
2003 amendment to oppose invading Iraq and I am proud to co-sponsor | :58:46. | :58:52. | |
today's amendment opposing bombing in Syria. I appeal to colle`gues on | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
all sides to make sure we do not ignore the lessons of Afghanistan, | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
ignore the lessons of Iraq, ignore the lessons of Libya. Let's not | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
repeat the mistakes of the past Let's not give the green light to | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
military action without a comprehensive and credible plan to | :59:10. | :59:12. | |
win the peace. Doctor Liam Fox. Mr Speaker, it is | :59:13. | :59:21. | |
very important for the whold House that in this debate today wd are | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
clear about what it is not `bout. This is not about provoking a new | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
confrontation with Daesh. They have already confronted peace and decency | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
and humanity. We have seen what they are capable of in terms of | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
beheadings, crucifixions, m`ss rape. We have seen the refugee crhsis that | :59:42. | :59:44. | |
they have provoked in the Mhddle East with this terrible hum`n cost. | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
And we have seen their willhngness to export jihad whenever thdy are | :59:49. | :59:54. | |
able to do so. It is also not about bombing Syria per se as it hs being | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
portrayed outside. It is thd extension of a military campaign we | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
are already following in Ir`q, across what is in effect in | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
nonexistent border in the s`nd. I'm afraid the unwillingness of the | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
Leader of the Opposition to answer the question of my honourable friend | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
will give the clear impresshon he's not just against the extenshon of | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
the bombing campaign into Sxrian territory, but he is against bombing | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
Daesh at all. That is a verx serious position to hold. To understand the | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
nature of the threat we facd and why it requires a military response we | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
need to understand the mindset of the jihadist Pozzas -- the | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
jihadists. They dehumanise their opponents by calling them infidels, | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
heretics, apostates. Let's remember the majority of those they have | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
killed our other Muslims, not those of other religions. They tell | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
themselves it is God's work and because it is God's work thdy accept | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
no man-made restraint, no l`ws, no borders and they use extremd | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
violence in their self appohnted mission. And we have seen that | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
violence on the sands of Tunisia, we heard it in the screams of the | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
Jordanian pilot who was burned alive in a cage. We need to be under no | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
illusions about the nature of the threat we face. This is not like | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
some of the armed political terrorist we have seen in the past. | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
This is a fundamentally different threat. This is a group that does | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
not seek accommodation. Thex seek domination. We need to understand | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
that before we are able to determine what our response should be. | :01:42. | :01:51. | |
He will know of concerns about Daesh starting to leave Syria, to go to | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
Libya. Does he agree with md that when we are tackling Daesh hn Syria, | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
we will have to confront thdm as well at some stage in Libya? My | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
honourable friend is absolutely right. We have not chosen this | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
confrontation. They have chosen to confront us. And the free world and | :02:11. | :02:18. | |
decency and humanity. It is absolutely a pre-requisite first | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
ability and peace in the future that we deal with this threat whdrever it | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
manifest itself. There are two elements, the military and political | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
elements. On the military qtestion, will British bombing, as part of an | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
allied action in Syria, be ` game changer? No, it will not. Btt it | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
will make a significant and serious contribution to what the alliance is | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
able to do. And the Prime Mhnister is absolutely correct when he says | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
some of the weaponry we possess enables us to diminish civilian | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
casualties. That has a double importance. It is important from a | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
humanitarian point of view. It is also important in not handing a | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
propaganda weapon to our opponent in the region. Britain can contribute | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
to this. We did it successftlly in Libya, minimising civilian | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
casualties. It is not an unhmportant contribution to make. We must be | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
rational and cautious about the wider implications. No conflict is | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
ever won from the air alone. The Prime Minister was right to point | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
out this is only part of a wider response. If we downgrade and | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
degrade the command of Daesh, territory will need to be t`ken and | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
it will need to be held. And I believe that ultimately we will need | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
to see an international coalition on the ground if that is to be | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
successful in the long term. There may be Syrian fighters, thex may be | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
coordinating the international coalition, but we have to rdcognise | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
that there needs to be a wider ability to take a whole territory. | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
Can I say to those opposing the motion, the longer we wait to act, | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
the smaller that number of `llies is likely to be. And the less their | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
capability is likely to be `s part of a wider coalition. And if we do | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
not have stability and security on the ground in Syria, there hs no | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
chance of peace, whatever h`ppens in Vienna. Mr Speaker, on the political | :04:22. | :04:30. | |
side, our allies simply belheve it is absurd for Britain to be part of | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
a military campaign against Daesh in Iraq but not in Syria. It is a | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
patented a militarily absurd position for us to hold and we have | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
a chance to correct is todax. But we must not contract out the sdcurity | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
of the United Kingdom to our allies. It is a national embarrassmdnt that | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
we are asking our allies to do what we believe is necessary to tackle a | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
fundamental threat to the sdcurity of the United Kingdom. This House of | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
Commons should not stand for it And finally, Mr Speaker, when wd do not | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
act, it makes us more difficult for us diplomatically to persuade other | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
countries to continue their strikes. The peeling off of the UAE | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
and Jordan and Saudi Arabia from the coalition attacking Daesh is of | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
great significance. We have a chance to reverse that if we take ` solid | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
position today. Mr Speaker, this motion and the action it proposes | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
will not defeat Daesh but it will help. And alongside the Vienna | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
process it may help bring pdace in the long term to the Syrian people. | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
But without the defeat of D`esh there will be no peace. We have not | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
chosen this conflict. But wd cannot ignore it. To do nothing is a policy | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
position which will have its own consequences. If we do act, does not | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
mean we will not see a terrorist atrocity in this country, would if | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
we do not tackle Daesh at source over their, there will be an | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
increasing risk we have to face the consequences over here. That would | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
be an abdication of the prilary responsibility of this Housd of | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
Commons, which is the protection of defence of the British people. That | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
is what this debate is all `bout. Sir Gerald Kaufman. Mr Speaker, | :06:18. | :06:28. | |
there is, of course, absolutely no doubt that Daesh, IS, is a vile | :06:29. | :06:38. | |
loathsome, murderous organisation. The attack in Paris, the murder of | :06:39. | :06:46. | |
130 innocent people, could just as well have been in London and their | :06:47. | :06:56. | |
choice of Paris was a retalhation against French activity in their | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
region, but that does not jtstify our taking activity if it wdre | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
appropriate, relevant and above all a successful. They claim to call | :07:09. | :07:18. | |
themselves Islamic. And the Prime Minister talked about reclahming | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
Islam from them. They do not own Islam. Hundreds of millions of | :07:24. | :07:34. | |
Muslims throughout the world are appalled by their murders, their | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
beheadings, their kidnappings, all of the abominable things th`t they | :07:39. | :07:47. | |
do. But Mr Speaker, our loading of IS, our wish to get rid of ht, the | :07:48. | :07:57. | |
defeated, to stop it, is not the issue here today. The issue here | :07:58. | :08:05. | |
is, what action could be taken in order to stop them? In order to get | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
rid of them? And I have to say that I do not see such an action. The | :08:12. | :08:20. | |
Prime Minister spoke about getting a transitional government in Syria. He | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
spoke about the situation in Syria. I have been to Syria many thmes I | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
did it with some distaste as Shadow Foreign Secretary and met ldading | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
officials in the Syrian administration. Murderers. H knew | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
they were murderers. They mtrder their own people. They murddred | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
10,000 people in Hama alone. I would be delighted to see them got rid | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
of. But they are not going to go. And when there is talk about | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
negotiations in Vienna, the assumption that somehow or other | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
that is going to result in getting rid of Assad, getting rid of the | :09:10. | :09:18. | |
administration, is a delusion. Putin, one of the most detestable | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
leaders of any stake in the world, will make sure that because they are | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
his allies and because they sued him, action against them is not | :09:27. | :09:35. | |
going to be successful. So what is the issue today? It is not `n issue | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
about changing the regime in Syria. That would make me very, very happy | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
indeed. It isn't about getthng rid of Daesh, getting rid of Dadsh would | :09:48. | :09:56. | |
make me very happy indeed. Ht is about what practical action can | :09:57. | :10:05. | |
result in some way in damaghng Daesh, in stopping their | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
atrocities, in stopping the people who are fleeing from them, hn | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
stopping the people who are flocking to them, including, sadly, some | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
small number of people from this country. | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
If what the Government were proposing today would, in anyway, | :10:31. | :10:38. | |
not simply or not totally gdt rid of Daesh, but we can them in a | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
significant way, so that thdy would not go on behaving in the abominable | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
fashion that we see, I wouldn't have any difficulty in voting for this | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
motion today. But there is absolutely no evidence of any kind | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
that bombing Daesh, that bolbing Raqqa will result in an upstrge of | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
other people in the region to get rid of them. What it would do might | :11:11. | :11:22. | |
cause some damage - it won't undermine them. What it will | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
undoubtedly do, despite the assurances of the Prime Minhster, | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
which I am sure are given in good faith, it will kill innocent | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
civilians. And I am not going to be a party to killing innocent | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
civilians for what will simply be a gesture. I am not interested in | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
gesture politics. I am not interested in gesture milit`ry | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
activity. I am interested in effective military activity, and if | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
that is brought before this house, I vote for it. When the previous | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
Conservative government camd to us and ask for our support to get rid | :12:09. | :12:18. | |
of Saddam Hussein from Kuwaht, I as Shadow Foreign Secretary formulated | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
the policy that led Labour Lembers of Parliament into the division | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
lobbies to vote for that. I am not interested in gesture is, I am | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
interested in effective acthvity. This government's motion and the | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
activity that will follow, hncluding military action from the air, will | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
not change the situation on the ground. I am not interested in | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
making a show. I am not intdrested in members of this house putting | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
their hands up for something that, in their own hearts, they know will | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
not work. And for that reason I shall vote against the government | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
motion. Order, an eight mintte limit on backbench speeches will now apply | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
with immediate effect. Mr Crispin Blunt. There are those who have | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
honourably opposed intervention on every occasion since 2003, hncluding | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
my honourable friend and Bella member of the Foreign Affairs Select | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
Committee, the member for B`sildon and Billericay, the move today's | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
principal amendment. Part of the strength of his case is that he was | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
undoubtedly right over Iraq in 003 and on Libya in 2011, which is the | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
subject of a committee inquhry. But it is my judgment that he w`s wrong | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
last year to oppose our support for the government of Iraq against Isil. | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
I do not know what he would say to the Yazidi families rescued by | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
British forces from the terror that Isil brought, and I am satisfied | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
that our military effort in Iraq over the last year has been to the | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
enormous credit of our armed forces and the stabilisation of Ir`q in the | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
face of a rapidly advancing threat from Isil. Wholly justified, a | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
strong majority that this house then gave for that intervention. The | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
reality we should acknowledge.. Of course. I will answer him as best I | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
can, and the reason I think a number of us opposed the motion about as | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
trikes in Iraq last year was very simply because we did not fdel then, | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
and I have great reservations now, that we had a comprehensive plan. We | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
have not beaten Isil in Irap, despite nearly 1 million security | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
forces on the government paxroll, and that brings us to Syria, because | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
we have nothing near that in Syria, and we still don't have that plan. | :14:57. | :15:05. | |
The position in Iraq was desperate. Baghdad was threatened by the | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
advance of Isil, and it was absolutely necessary that the | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
international community went to the aid of the government and pdople of | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
Iraq. He talks about the desperation in Iraq. I have just had an e-mail | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
from someone who I will keep anonymous, because they are working | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
in Raqqa, and they say this - Daesh are the death that is stretching | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
from the east, when you see them, it is as if you are seeing the angel of | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
death, they are in Raqqa right now, how can I carry on exposing my child | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
to severed heads and hanging bodies on a daily basis? A mother hn Raqqa. | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
Well, I agree with my honourable friend, the reality we have to | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
acknowledge is that whether we like it or not, Isil is at war whth us. | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
We don't have to confess sole case about weapons of mass destrtction, | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
nor is this about a threat to the citizens of a country from their own | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
government. This is about pdople at war with us and our values `nd our | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
society. This is not a war of choice. And I have not spokdn to | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
anyone, Mr Speaker, Wouda Mdrs from the proposition that Isil mtst be | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
denied the territory that they control. Who -- who demurs. The | :16:23. | :16:33. | |
retailing of this territory is an immediate and urgent requirdment. | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
This, therefore, is the mission - whilst a civil war rages in Syria, | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
it is virtually impossible to achieve that. That is the ndcessary | :16:43. | :16:50. | |
first step. And finally, after the negotiations and the agreemdnt of a | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
Syria international support group in Vienna on the 14th of November, a | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
way can be seen to that transition. Before then, I don't believd the | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
Government was able to offer an answer to our question of which | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
ground forces would stay cold and administered the territories | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
captured from Isil in Syria to the satisfaction of the committde. - | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
would take hold. In the wakd of that, I believe they can and did, | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
and indeed the Prime Ministdr made the points today when he mentioned | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
the real plan. It is the re`l plan, the ideal solution, which is | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
referenced on page 20 of thd Prime Minister's response to the Foreign | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
Affairs Select Committee whdn he envisages the political transition | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
in Syria allowing a new leadership and reform of the Syrian Ar`b army | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
to enable it to tackle terrorist groups in defence of the Syrian | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
nation. The Syrian army, fighting alongside the Free Syrian Army, | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
ideally needs to be the forces that reclaim Syria for a new Syrhan | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
republic. But we should not imagine for one minute that this is a task | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
they will be able to accomplish on their own. We need to infludnce the | :18:03. | :18:10. | |
policy of our coalition partners, and the policy of the whole | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
international community to face up to the reality that this entails. | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
This is the crucial issue. How would we, the United Kingdom, exercise the | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
greatest influence? Everythhng I have heard in the last month, taking | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
evidence on this issue, suggests that our role as a compromised and | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
limited member of the coalition against Isil operating only in Iraq | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
weakens that influence. Now, we can debate, now we can debate the | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
efficacy of air strikes and the additional capability that Brimstone | :18:47. | :18:48. | |
missile is bring to the whole coalition. But the truth is we all | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
know that those issues are larginal to the outcome. What is not marginal | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
to the outcome is getting the international politics right, and it | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
is not in the interests of our country, or the people we | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
represent, for this house to deny the Government the authoritx it | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
needs today. I am now satisfied that the Government who, along whth the | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
Americans, helped block the transition process by our | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
preconditions about the rold of Bashar al-Assad, can now pl`y a | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
critically constructive rold in the transition. Indeed, my crithcism of | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
today's motion is that the Government should be seeking wider | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
authority from the house. Lhmiting the targeting of Isil and excluding | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
Al-Nusra and any future terrorist groups that will be listed by the | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
United Nations, as envisaged under the UN Security Council resolution | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
to 249, is a restriction I do not understand. If armed groups put | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
themselves beyond recall in the group of the Security Counchl, then | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
our armed forces should be authorised to act within thd law. | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
Equally, the limitation of deploying UK troops in ground combat | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
operations, I believe, shows a lack of foresight. We know that both | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
Syrian and Iraqi armed for so is art going to need the maximum possible | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
help which arguably should hnclude the embedding of... In the fighting | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
echelon gave ability, including artillery and engineers, as well as | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
comprehensive logistics, service, command and control and comd | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
indications functions. Wherd will these come from Jim and the truth is | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
that since this mission must succeed, these war winning | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
capabilities may need to be found from beyond the neighbouring Sunni | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
countries and the whole of the United Nations, with effecthve | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
military capability, may be required to provide that, including ts. | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
However, if the government has chosen... I am afraid I cannot give | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
way to my honourable colleague and friend on the committee, who has | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
made such an excellent imprdssion on the committee so far, because I am | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
time-limited. If there is thme at the end, I will take his | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
intervention. However, if the Government has chosen a path that is | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
going to require it to come back to this house for more authority, then | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
that is the Government's choice To my mind, Isil is such a cle`r and | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
present danger to the civilhsed world that, if all necessarx means | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
are endorsed by the Securitx Council, then so should this house. | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
The foreign affairs committde will continue in choir in into the | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
international strategies to defeat Isil, and on behalf of of this | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
house, to hold the Government to account in detail. -- will continue | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
to enquire. The right honourable lady, who is sadly and well, but | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
hopefully in recovery, we whsh you a speedy recovery, has communhcated to | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
me that she would be supporting the Government this evening. Thd | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
honourable member for Ilford South's view does not take luch | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
guessing as to which aside he would be on this evening. In my jtdgments, | :22:16. | :22:23. | |
this house will best discharge its responsibilities by giving our | :22:24. | :22:25. | |
government the authority it needs not just to act without | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
international partners against this horror, but to influence thdm to | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
make the necessary compromises in their national objectives and to | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
ensure the collective securhty of all nations, and I give way to my | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
honourable friend. I want to thank the member for Reigate, and if I can | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
take the opportunity to pay tribute to his work as chairman of this | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
committee, we will be on opposite sides tonight, but I pay trhbute to | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
that. He mentioned the point about where we would sit, and durhng our | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
evidence, it says in the report several witnesses suggested that by | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
participating in military action against Isil in Syria, the TK would | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
actually compromised its diplomatic capability. That a point whdre we | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
will have to come to our own conclusions. I have to say to him | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
and to the house that nothing I have heard in the last month as pointed | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
towards anything except the opposite of that conclusion. Ministers have | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
been clear about that evidence, every single country we went to who | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
was asked this question, sahd that the UK position was, but mice by the | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
fact that we were only have been and have out of the coalition. ,- was | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
compromised. It is a position of no conceivable diplomatic benefit and | :23:45. | :23:46. | |
one that is a position of no conceivable diplomatic benefit and | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
one that this's challenge is that we were both present 12 years `go when | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
a previous Prime Minister m`de a compelling performance and we made | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
the UK party to a disaster hn the Middle East. It is right th`t we | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
should be mindful of our recent history, but we must not be | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
hamstrung by it. Misses Margaret Beckett. -- Mrs. This debatd centres | :24:11. | :24:20. | |
on national security and thd safety of our constituents, and thdre will | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
be differences of view withhn and between every party in this house, | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
so in good faith and conscidnce members will reach different | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
conclusions. Anybody who approaches today's debate without the gravest | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
doubts, reservations and anxieties simply has not been paying | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
attention. But we are sent here by our constituents to exercisd our | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
best judgments, each our own best judgment. This is a debate of | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
contradictions, the terms of the motion echoing the UN resolttion, | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
are almost apocalyptic end the threat they describe as an | :25:02. | :25:03. | |
unprecedented threat to international peace and sectrity. | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
The proposal before as a, as my honourable friend for Gordon said, | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
amounts to a relatively minor extension of action we are `lready | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
undertaking. -- the proposal before us. We are being asked to act in | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
Iraq and Syria precisely because that is what Daesh do and their | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
headquarters is in Syria. Wd are being ask to make a further | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
contribution to an existing international effort to contain | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
Daesh from extending the maxhem and bloodshed that accompanies their | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
every move even more widely across the Middle East. | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
Serious questions are being raised and I respect those who raise them. | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
There is unease about ground forces, proper concern about the | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
strategy that we engage and about the aftermath, about rebuilding | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
Some say simply that innocent people are more likely to be killed. | :26:04. | :26:10. | |
Military action does create casualties, however much we try to | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
minimise them. So, should wd, on those grounds, abandon action in | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
Iraq, although we undertake it at the request of the government there, | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
and it seems to be making a difference? Should we take no | :26:27. | :26:28. | |
further action against Daesh, who are themselves killing innocent | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
people and striving to kill them all, every day of the week? Or | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
should we simply leave it to others? If we make ourselves a | :26:37. | :26:44. | |
bigger target for Daesh att`ck, we are and we will remain a target | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
There is no good wondering `bout that, Daesh has told us so `nd | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
continues to tell us with every day that passes. We might as well take | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
them not just at their word but at their deeds. They have sought out | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
our fellow countrymen to kill, including aid workers and other | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
innocent people and whatever we decide today, there's no dotbt that | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
Babel do so again. Nor is the consequence of inaction simply Daesh | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
controlling more territory `nd land. We have seen what happens when they | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
take control. The treatments of groups such as the Yazidis hn all | :27:23. | :27:30. | |
its horror should make is unwilling to contemplate any further dxtension | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
of Daesh claiming territory. In action Leeds, that way, the death | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
and destruction. Quite separately, there are those opposed in principle | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
to action who doubt the effhcacy of what is proposed, and the coalition | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
strategy that rests solely on bombing, they say, will havd little | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
effect. Well, tell that to the Kosovans, and don't forget that if | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
they had been no bombing thdre perhaps 1 million Albanian Luslim | :28:05. | :28:06. | |
refugees would have been sedking refuge in Europe. Tell that to the | :28:07. | :28:14. | |
Kurds in Kobane, who have bden pleading for international `ir | :28:15. | :28:16. | |
support without which they felt they were losing control to Daesh. Tell | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
them in Sierra Leone, that lilitary action should always be avohded | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
because there would be casu`lties. Their state and their peace were | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
almost destroyed. It was Brhtish military reaction that brought them | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
back from the brink. Of course it took place in conjunction whth | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
political and diplomatic activity, and I share the view that it is | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
vital that such activity is substantially strengthened `nd I was | :28:46. | :28:46. | |
heartened by what the Prime Minister heartened by what the Prime Minister | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
told us today. Our conference did call for a United Nations rdsolution | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
before further action and wd now have a unanimous Security Council | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
resolution. Moreover, that resolution calls on member states in | :29:01. | :29:08. | |
explicit and unmistakable tdrms to combat the threat from Daesh, "by | :29:09. | :29:19. | |
all means". And it falls to" first eradicate the safe footing that they | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
have established in Iraq and Syria". Those are the words of the | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
UN resolution. It speaks of the need to pursue the peace process, the | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
year-end resolution calls on member states to Act now. -- UN resolution. | :29:33. | :29:42. | |
Moreover, our allies have asked us for support and I would invhte the | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
House to consider how we wotld feel and what we would say if wh`t took | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
place in Paris had happened in London, if we had explicitlx asked | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
France for support, and France had refused. These are genuinelx | :29:57. | :30:08. | |
extremely... These are genuhnely extremely difficult as well as | :30:09. | :30:17. | |
extremely serious decisions, but it is the virgins of the United Nations | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
and the Socialist government in France that have been a tipping | :30:25. | :30:26. | |
point in my decision to support military action. Mr Speaker, I refer | :30:27. | :30:34. | |
the House to the amendment hn my name and that of other honotrable | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
members. There are many on both sides of the House who feel that air | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
strikes, extending air strikes into Syria, is not a wise move, hn the | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
absence of a long-term strategy realistic strategy, both military | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
and non-military, otherwise we risk repeating the errors that wd made in | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
Iraq, in Helmand Province, hn Libya and would have made only two years | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
ago in this House, if we had allowed the government to intervene on | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
behalf of the rebels. That strategy must include comprehensive layout of | :31:12. | :31:19. | |
military plans, it must include thought given at plans made for the | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
aftermath and indeed an Exeter strategy, but many of these | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
questions that we have asked remain unanswered. Can I just say, we all | :31:29. | :31:36. | |
accept there are no easy answers in foreign policy nowadays, just a | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
series of tough decisions. But, as such, there has got to be rdspect on | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
both sides for those views held One or two people have suggested that | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
one is playing politics or personalities with this isste. I | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
would refer them to my voting record on Iraq, my opposition to the | :32:00. | :32:07. | |
extension of the Afghan mission to Helmand province, my opposition to | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
Libya and two years ago in this House, when we were asked to support | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
or striking Assad. I have bden or striking Assad. I have bden | :32:16. | :32:23. | |
called a pacifist and worse. And I would refer those people to my | :32:24. | :32:32. | |
military record as a soldier, where I have got the medals to prove I am | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
certainly not a pacifist, and also to my record in Northern Irdland as | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
a platoon Commander during the 1980s. I have huge respect for my | :32:42. | :32:49. | |
honourable friend. As a milhtary man, would he agree with me that in | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
all military operations throughout history, the 1st thing that goes | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
wrong on day one is the planning. However, that should not stop us | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
from making the effort and hopefully succeeding at the end were, we hope, | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
a peaceful solution can be found. I will not disagree with my noble | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
friend at all but at the sale time, we owe it to those particip`ting in | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
any military action that we think very carefully through the plans to | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
make sure that they are as realistic, as cold rain set as | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
possible, otherwise we do rhsk repeating past errors. -- as | :33:27. | :33:41. | |
comprehensive as possible. While he makes an elegant point about the | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
complexity of the situation and the suitable politicals solution in the | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
end, surely the protection of our people and safety on streets has to | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
my honourable friend. There are many my honourable friend. There are many | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
on both sides of this House who oppose the government on extending | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
these strikes. But don't forget some of us supported the inhtial | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
deployment to Afghanistan in 20 1 on that basis because there was a | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
clearly laid out strategy. What I do not see in this plan is a clearly | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
laid out strategy and that hs why we have got to ask these questhons and | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
try and get some answers. Pdrhaps the most damning accusation against | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
those of us who say that we don t want to support the extension of | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
military air strikes is that we are sort of sitting on our hands, we | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
don't want to do anything, we want to stick our heads in the s`nd. I | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
would refer to that point, that we do believe, many of us belidve | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
anyway, in the need for milhtary action, to take on terrorists. Many | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
of us supported the initial deployment to Afghanistan in 20 1, | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
and we succeeded very quickly with a couple of years. Well we have | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
trouble with Afghanistan was when the mission morphed into ond of | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
nation building, when recently didn't realise what we were getting | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
into and didn't have the resources to back it up. But we need ` | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
long-term strategy. So what should that be, what should it include Was | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
no good standing in saying that we need one if we don't know what that | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
should be put up let's talk about the non-military side of thhs. We | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
have been talking about disrupting the financial flows and bushness | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
interests of Daesh in this place for at least a year if not 18 months. | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
There has been no noticeabld disruption of those business | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
interests or financial flows. We have command of the skies in Syria. | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
Why are we not disrupting those business and financial interests? | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
There has been no real answdr about that. Why are we not doing lore to | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
disrupt their prominence on social media? Again, we have talked about | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
it in this place many times. I do not see any evidence that wd are | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
disrupting their prominence. Something we should tackle. Perhaps | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
above all, we should be tackling the ideology and the sectarianism that | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
feeds the extremism that thdse groups, including Daesh, fedd off. | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
That is a long-term strategx. You cannot do it overnight. Agahn, I do | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
not see much evidence of th`t. Where are those awkward questions to our | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
allies in the region about feeding this extremism? We are not getting | :36:31. | :36:39. | |
that message across. But, c`n I come back to the point that has been | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
raised before? Courtesy of the Foreign Affairs Committee rdcent | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
visit to the Middle East, wd only managed to get back on Thursday | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
morning in time for the Prile Minister's statement, about these | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
mythical 70,000 troops. We `ll accept you cannot arm, born Isil out | :36:57. | :37:04. | |
of existence through air strikes alone. It will take ground forces. | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
But everybody is having trotble identifying what those ground forces | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
should be and who should actually arm and supply them. We vishted | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
various capitals, we visited Teheran, Riyadh, Abou Diaby, and | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
spoke to many experts across many fields. And the point that kept | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
coming across was the belief that there are very few moderates | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
remaining in Syria after five years of civil war. Even if you bdlieve | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
the 70,000 they get, if you believe that they were all moderates, what | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
the strategy does not address, and I have not had an answer and H have | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
asked this question before, is, what is stopping these moderates, once | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
the common enemy, once they have been miraculously told to stop | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
fighting Assad and take on Daesh, what is stopping them splintering | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
into 100 or even 1000 milit`rists, as we saw in Libya? We ignore the | :38:08. | :38:15. | |
lessons of Libya at our cost, because what we were being told on | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
the ground only last week is that they are a very splintered, not a | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
homogenous group by any strdtch of the imagination and they ard liable | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
to turn on each other, just as they are to turn on any, if they are so | :38:30. | :38:38. | |
upset, to do so. I have madd this point. I have allowed two | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
interventions. I must now crack on. We should draw the lessons from | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
Iraq. We are struggling to defeat Daesh in Iraq. Estimates vary, but | :38:49. | :38:57. | |
between 800-900,000 securitx forces there a one-hour payroll. One | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
strategy you could employ is to finish the job in Iraq, before we | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
actually start thinking abott any long-term strategy in Syria. Again, | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
we are struggling and that hs one of the fundamental differences between | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
Iraq and Syria. As to the issue about sitting at the top table, can | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
I address this point secondly, because this is a strong message | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
when we were visiting the Mhddle East? We are already at the top | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
table. China is not intending to intervene in this situation and yet | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
sits at the top table in Vidnna as a member of the. We would do so also, | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
and it is quite clear that we are showing solidarity with our | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
partners. In conclusion, Mr Speaker, the short-term effect of Brhtish air | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
strikes will be marginal. Most people accept that. As we intervene | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
more, we become more responsible for the events on the ground and we lay | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
ourselves open to the unintdnded consequences of the fog of war. | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
Without a comprehensive str`tegy, air strikes will simply reinforce | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
the West's long-term failurd in the region generally, at a time when | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
there are already too many `ircraft chasing too few targets. | :40:14. | :40:23. | |
Is strong pattern emerges. Time and again the executive makes a | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
convincing case. Time and thme again it turns out to be wrong. Jtst a few | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
weeks ago the Foreign Affairs Committee produced a very rdasonable | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
reasons and thoughtful report arguing against air strikes in Syria | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
in the absence of a comprehdnsive long-term strategy. Returning from | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
my travels I and other colldagues hold to that view and it was the | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
decision of the committee l`st night that the Prime Minister had not | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
adequately answered or addrdssed our concerns. So, Mr Speaker, I will | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
oppose this military action. I will intend to move the amendment in my | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
name and that of other honotrable member is. We have stood at this | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
very point before. We should have no excuse for repeating our errors and | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
setting out on the same tragic misguided path once more. | :41:16. | :41:25. | |
Johnson. It is during my time in Parliament | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
that it has become a convention that this has authorise military action | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
whereas previously it was for the Prime Minister to do under the guise | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
of rural prerogative. Somethmes they would advise the House of Commons | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
but often they did not. This new convention, I believe, placds | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
responsibility or an Members of Parliament to weigh up the `rguments | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
unfold according to their conscience rather than a parliamentary work. I | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
am not sure if other parties are put on the spot or not but what I can't | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
about is that nobody on any side of this House would seek to justify | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
their vote tonight by pleadhng that poverty disagreed or agreed with | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
people -- proposition, they were forced them to vote the way that the | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
dead. On vote such as this with the exception of the front bench, the | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
group is irrelevant. Wow I `m a fool to the Shadow Cabinet for the three | :42:20. | :42:21. | |
vote my party has been afforded I do not think it will make the | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
slightest difference to the bee that we make our decision. I will fold | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
for the motion this evening for one basic reason. I believe that | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
Isil-Daesh promotes a real danger to British citizens and that it has a | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
dedicated unit that is not based in Iraq where the RAF is already fully | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
engaged but in Syria. This dxternal operations unit is already | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
responsible for killing 30 British holiday-makers on a beach in June | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
there and the British rock fan who pack -- perished amongst 130 others | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
in the atrocity in Paris a few weeks ago. It is true that this mhnute | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
could have moved out of Raqpa but that is not what the intellhgence | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
was a belief. In fact, just as Al-Qaeda needed the safe haven that | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
they created in Afghanistan to plan 911 and other atrocities, so | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
Isil-Daesh need their self declared caliphate to finance, train, | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
organise and recruit to the wicked cause. Yes, there may be cells | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
elsewhere but there is little doubt that the nerve centre is in Raqqa. | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
Just over 14 months ago, thhs has sanctioned military action hn Iraq | :43:45. | :43:53. | |
against Isil-Daesh by 524 votes to 43. Nobody expected that action to | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
bring about the swift end to the threat from Isil, indeed, the Prime | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
Minister in responding to an intervention said, and I quote, this | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
mission will take not just lonths, but years. Many honourable `nd write | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
honourable member svelte at that time that it was illogical to have | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
the effectiveness of our action diminished by a border that | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
Isil-Daesh did not recognisd. We were inhibited by the absence of a | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
specific UN resolution and so there was some justification for this | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
House to confine its response to one part of Isil held territory in | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
September 2014. There can strely be no such justification in December | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
2015, no such justification after Paris, no such justification given | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
the requests for help from our nearest continental neighbotr and | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
close ally in response to the murderous attack that took place on | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
the 13th of November. No such justification... I will givd way in | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
one second. No such justification after the UN resolution Council | :45:04. | :45:11. | |
resolution number 49. Paragraph five of that resolution unanimously | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
agreed and I quote, calls upon Member States that have the capacity | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
to do so to take all necess`ry measures to eradicate the s`fe haven | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
that Isil has established over a significant parts of Iraq and Syria. | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
I give way. Thank you for taking my question. | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
Can I put the point that I would have put to the honourable lember | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
before, a similar call from France was made by Germany with Germany | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
sending reconnaissance aircraft but refusing to bomb. | :45:47. | :45:56. | |
Mr Speaker, Germany are not constrained by their historx. The | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
point I am making is that after recent events mark where we sit now | :46:00. | :46:06. | |
in this parliament having atthorise military action by the RAF hn Iraq, | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
we can no longer justify not responding to that by extending our | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
operations into Serbia. If we ignore that part of UN resolution 2449 that | :46:16. | :46:24. | |
I have just mentioned, we are left supporting only the pieties | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
contained in the other paragraphs, unequivocally condemning, expressing | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
deep sympathy, reaffirming that those responsible must be hdld to | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
account, in other words, Brhtain, this country, will be expressing | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
indignation whilst doing nothing to implement the action unanimously | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
agreed on a motion that in our role as chair of the Security Cotncil, we | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
had helped to formulate. Furthermore, there is no argument | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
against or involvement in attacking Isil-Daesh in Syria that cannot be | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
made against our action in Hraq where we have helped to prevent | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
Isil's expansion -- expansion and help to reclaim 30% of the territory | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
it occupies. As the Prime Mhnister said that in his response to the | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
Foreign Affairs Select Commhttee... I will give way and a second. The | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
Prime Minister pointed out that this means that RAF tornadoes with these | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
special ports, so sophistic`ted that they gather a 60% of the | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
coalition's technical reconnaissance in Iraq can be used to similar | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
effect in Syria so long as `nother country comes in to completd the | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
strike. This is a ridiculous situation for this country to be in. | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
I give way. Is the difference above then Iraq to Syria that on the | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
ground in Iraq is a long established ally of hours in the Kurdish | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
Peshmerga who actually wants to work with us? We do not have that in | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
Syria, what the Prime Minister has been describing as a patchwork. | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
My honourable friend makes `n important point. I have just rewrite | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
the Hansard report from that event that we had in September 2004. This | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
was not raised by anyone incidentally. The issues of what | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
comes next and it is a very important consideration and we have | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
expressed concerns on all shdes of the House. It must not stop us | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
responding to what happened in Paris, responding to resolution 2249 | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
and the request for all countries with the capability to act now. The | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
UN resolution did not say ldt us believe this. It said to act now. I | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
do not believe there is anyone in this House that believes th`t | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
defeating this motion tonight will somehow remove us from the line of | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
fire, that Isil-Daesh and its allies will consider us to no longdr be a | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
legitimate target for their barbaric activities. The 102 people lurdered | :48:58. | :49:05. | |
in Ankara where at a peace rally. The seven plots foiled by the | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
security services so far thhs year where all planned against us before | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
this motion was even conceived. Our decision today will not altdr | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
Isil-Daesh's contempt for this country and our way of life one | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
iota. But it could, I believe, affect their ability to plan and | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
execute their attacks. If it does not destroy this capability in | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
Syria, it will force their dxternal operations unit to move and in so | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
doing make it more exposed `nd less effective. The motion resents a | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
taken forward by the intern`tional taken forward by the intern`tional | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
community to bring about thd transformation in Syria that we all | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
want to see and we are promhsed regular updates as part of this | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
motion on that aspect. Furthermore, Mr Speaker, I believe it medts the | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
standards that many members will have set for endorsing military | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
action now that the conventhon applies. Is it a just cause? Is the | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
proposed action last resort? Is it proportional? Does it have ` | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
reasonable prospect of succdss? Does it had broad regional support? Does | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
it have a clear legal base? I think it meets all of those criteria. I | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
find this decision as hard `nd difficult as anyone to make, I wish | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
I had a frankly, the self-rhghteous certitude of the finger jabbing | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
representatives of our new `nd kinder type of politics who will no | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
doubt soon be contacting those of us who support this motion tonhght But | :50:43. | :50:49. | |
I believe that Isil-Daesh h`s to be confronted and destroyed if we are | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
to properly defend our country and other way of life and I belheve that | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
this motion provides the best way to achieve this objective. | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
Dr Julian Lewis. Thank you, Mr Speaker from ` | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
honourable member have been asked to back it strikes against Daesh and | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
2-stroke solidarity with our French and American friends. Yet, ` gesture | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
of solidarity however sincerely meant cannot be a substitutd for | :51:22. | :51:28. | |
hard-headed strategy. Most defence committee members probably hntend to | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
vote for such your strikes, but I shall vote against your strhkes in | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
the absence of credible grotnd forces as ineffective and | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
potentially dangerous, just as I voted against the proposal to bomb | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
President Assad in 2013. Indeed the fact that the British government | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
wanted to bomb first one side and then the other in the same civil war | :51:56. | :52:03. | |
in such a short space of tile illustrates to my mind a vacuum at | :52:04. | :52:12. | |
the heart of our strategy. @t least we are now targeting our de`dly | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
Islamist enemies rather than trying to bring down yet another dhctator | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
with the same like the results as in Iraq and in Libya. Daesh must indeed | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
be driven out of its territory militarily, but this can be done | :52:32. | :52:40. | |
only by a credible force, which is ready and able to do the fighting on | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
the ground. So, who will supply this force without which air strhkes | :52:46. | :52:55. | |
cannot prevail? The failure of the ineptly named Arab Spring in so many | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
countries shows the two most likely outcomes, a victory for | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
authoritarian dictatorship on the 1 hand or a victory for revolttionary | :53:06. | :53:14. | |
Islamist on the other. Moderation and democracy have barely fdatured | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
in the countries affected and Syria seems to be no exception. I am sorry | :53:19. | :53:26. | |
to see, genuinely sorry to say that we face a choice between a very | :53:27. | :53:34. | |
nasty authoritarians and Islamist totalitarians, there is no third | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
way. Our government, however, is in denial about this. It does concede | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
that your strikes must be in support of ground forces and has cole up | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
with a remarkable figure from the Joint Intelligence Committed of | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
70,000 so-called moderate fhghters, with whom we can supposedly | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
coordinate our air strikes. It is very doubtful, however, that where | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
such an alliance successful that the territory freed from Daesh would | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
cease to be under Islamist control. I think I heard you first. | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
Thank you for giving way. Pdugeot comment specifically on the | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
Independent reports that indicate the Free Syrian Army are currently | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
selling supplied weapons to Daesh in their own fight against Ass`d? | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
It is certainly true that there have been well documented cases of such | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
weapons ending up in the hands of Daesh, however, I would not wish to | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
tie the entire Free Syrian @rmy with what some of its factions mhght have | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
done or in fact, have done `s the honourable lady rightly suggests. | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
But in an attempt... In a moment. Then an attempt to try and dstablish | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
the facts about the 70,000, I have made inquiries of two peopld whose | :55:09. | :55:17. | |
expert opinion I much admird. One is the writer and journalist, Patrick | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
Cockburn, who is one of Britain s's leading commentators on Syrha and he | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
was one of the first to write about the threat from what was thdn called | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
Isis long before it captured Mosul. This is what he tells me and I | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
quote, unfortunately, the bdlief that there are 70,000 moder`te | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
opposition fighters on the ground in Syria is wishful thinking. The armed | :55:42. | :55:49. | |
opposition is dominated by Hsis or Al-Qaeda type organisations. There | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
are many small and highly fragmented groups of opposition fighters who do | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
not like resident Assad or Hsis and could be described as non-extremist, | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
but they are generally men from a single clan, tribe or village. They | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
are often guns for hire and they operate under licence from the | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
Al-Qaeda affiliate, the al-Nusra front or its new equivalent, another | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
group. Many of these groups seek to present | :56:18. | :56:30. | |
a moderate face abroad but remain sectarian and intolerant within | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
Syria. Does he not agree with me that it is a ridiculous sittation? | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
On the one hand the governmdnt praises the Kurds but on thd other | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
and, it's ally, Turkey, is `ttacking them. How much more ridiculous can | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
you get than that? I thank him for that contribution. It is not only | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
ridiculous but highly dangerous I will just say in passing, to have | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
separate conflicts going on within the same battle space withott | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
reaching a proper agreement can lead us into all sorts of nasty | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
confrontations, the worst of which would be if we ended up eyeball to | :57:13. | :57:20. | |
eyeball with the Russians, when they and we share the same common enemy | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
in Isil-Daesh. The second expert I consulted was our former ambassador | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
or to Syria, and this is how he describes the Free Syrian Army. He | :57:31. | :57:44. | |
calls it a ragbag... To losd the FSA appellation in order to sectre a | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
Gulf, Turkish and Western ftnding. He goes on to say that most of the | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
factions which are extremelx locally based have no interest whatsoever in | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
being drawn into battles ag`inst groups which basically shard their | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
sick herring agenda hundreds of miles away in areas with whhch they | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
are unfamiliar -- sectarian agenda. So instead of having dodgy dossiers, | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
we now have bogus battalions of "moderate" fighters. Now, I wish to | :58:16. | :58:26. | |
continue as follows. Once D`esh has been driven out, if eventually we | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
get an overall military str`tegy together, which adding a few bombing | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
raids does not comprise, once it has been driven out, as it must driven | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
out, there arises the questhon of the occupying power, becausd there | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
will have to be an occupying power remaining in control for many years | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
to come if other Islamist are not going to take over from Daesh. That | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
occupying force must be a Mtslim one and only the Syrian governmdnt army | :59:01. | :59:07. | |
is likely to provide it. Indeed as the Prime Minister himself `t | :59:08. | :59:13. | |
knowledge in the Commons on 26 November, and I quote," in time the | :59:14. | :59:19. | |
best round troops should be the Syrian Army." So, to bring latters | :59:20. | :59:27. | |
to a close, air strikes alone are a dangerous diversion and | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
distraction. What is needed is a grand military alliance involving | :59:33. | :59:39. | |
not only the West but Russi`, and yes, it's Syrian government client, | :59:40. | :59:48. | |
too. We need... I honestly think that my honourable friend the | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
chairman of the Foreign Aff`irs Committee has had more than his fair | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
share of this debate, and I am going to make use of mine. We need to | :59:56. | :00:05. | |
choose the lesser of two evhls and abandon the fiction of a cosy third | :00:06. | :00:11. | |
choice. There is a genuine consensus now that the decision to relove | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
Saddam Hussein was a terrible mistake. But Saddam Hussein was | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
every bit as much of a vicious dictator as we are told that Assad | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
is, so ask yourselves when xou are thinking about the hard chohce that | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
has to be faced tonight, ask yourself this, you may feel pious | :00:32. | :00:39. | |
about it, looking back on the wrong decision that was made about Saddam | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
Hussein, but a very similar decision confronts us tonight. It is a | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
question of choosing the lesser of two evils, not fooling oursdlves | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
that there is a cosy third option which, in reality, is a fantasy | :00:56. | :01:05. | |
Yvette Cooper. Thank you, Mr Speaker. We know that no parliament | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
ever takes a more serious ddcision and what we should do to protect the | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
security and safety of our nation and whether to put our forcds in | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
harm's away. I know that evdry member of the House will be waned | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
that decision seriously, because the truth is we have got those decisions | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
wrong before and other governments have got those decisions wrong | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
before. When we went into Iraq, in 2003 and when we failed to hntervene | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
early enough in Bosnia a decade before that. And so, since the Prime | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
Minister made his case last Thursday, I sought out a series of | :01:40. | :01:47. | |
reassurances, some of which I have received and some of which H have | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
not. And I do not believe the Prime Minister has made the most dffective | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
case, so I understand why m`ny in this House feel that they are not | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
yet convinced. I also feel that I cannot see that the coalition air | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
strikes that are underway already in both Syria and Iraq, should somehow | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
stop. And if they are not to stop and France has asked for our help, I | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
do not think that we can sax no So I think that there are changes that | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
need to be made to the government's approach, and I will argue for | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
them, and there are limits on the approach we need to take, what I | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
will also vote with the govdrnment on this motion tonight, even though | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
I recognise how difficult that is for so many of us. The whold House | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
agrees that we need a stratdgy that delivers peace and defeats Hsis | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
Daesh. I disagree with any suggestion that this can be done as | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
Isis first or Daesh first, because that simply will not work. Hn the | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
end, we know that the Vienn` process is the process to replace the Assad | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
regime that is dropping barrel bombs on so many innocent people `cross | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
Syria that is crucial to prdventing the recruitment for Isis as well. | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
And if we or the coalition `re seen to be siding with Assad or to be | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
somehow strengthening Assad, that will increase recruitment for Daesh | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
as well. I also disagree with the suggestion that somehow, thdre are | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
70,000 troops who are going to step in and the purpose of these air | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
strikes is to provide air cover for those troops to be able to take on | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
and defeat Daesh, because wd know that is not going to happen any time | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
soon. We know that they're not such forces anywhere near Raqqa, and we | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
know, too, that those forces are divided. The air strikes will not be | :03:41. | :03:49. | |
part of an instant, decisivd military campaign. I disagrde with | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
those who say that instead of Isis first we should have Vienna first | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
and wait until the peace process is completed in order to take `ir | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
strike action against Daesh. That is why I think the coalition ahr | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
strikes are still needed. Wd know that Isis is not going to bd part of | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
the peace process. They will not negotiate. They will not negotiate. | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
The we know, too, that they have continuous ambitions to exp`nd and | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
continuous ambitions to att`ck us, to attack our allies and to have | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
terror threat is not just in Paris and in Tunisia but all over the | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
world, and anywhere that thdy get the chance. They hold oil, | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
territory, communications, that they want to use the expand. And I don't | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
think the coalition can simply stand back and give them free rein, while | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
we work on that vital peace process. When coalition air strikes `re | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
already in place involving France and Turkey and Jordan, the TS, | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
Morocco, Bahrain and Australia, if we have evidence that there are | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
communication networks that are being used, in order to plan attacks | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
in Paris, Brussels or London, can we say that those coalition air strikes | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
should not take place, to t`ke those communication networks out? If we | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
have evidence that there ard supplied who's been used to plan an | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
expansion to take over more territory, to increase their | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
barbaric regime into wider spaces, do we really think that coalition | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
air strikes should not be able to take those supply route out? And, if | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
we think that the coalition air strikes should continue, can we | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
really say no, when France, that has gone through the terrible ordeal of | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
Paris, says we want -- they want our help in continuing those air strikes | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
now? And I have argued in this place and elsewhere, continually, for our | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
country to do far more, to share any international support for rdfugees | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
who are fleeing the conflict, and I still think we should do much more | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
and not leave it to other countries alone. That same argument about | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
sanctions applies the securhty as well -- sanctuary. And I don't think | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
we can leave it to other cotntries to take the strain. And I c`nnot | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
ignore the advice from security experts, that without coalition air | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
strikes over the next 12 months the threat from Daesh in the region but | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
also in Europe and in Britahn, will be much greater. And I think we have | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
to do our bit, to try to contain that threat, not to promise if you | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
defeat or overthrow in the short-term, because we cannot, but | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
at least to contain what thdy do. I also think it is important to make | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
sure that we degrade their capacity to obliterate the remaining moderate | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
and opposition forces, however big they are, because when Vienna gets a | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
proper reading, it cannot shmply be a peace debate involving Assad and | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
Daesh as the only forces left standing, because that will never | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
bring peace and security to the region. So, if we are to do our bit | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
and to take the strain, I think we also need to have more limited | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
objectives and the Prime Minister has set out. In self defencd, to | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
support the peace process, but not just to create a vacuum for Assad to | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
sweep into. It makes the imperative of avoidance of civilian casualties | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
even greater, because where there is any risk that people are behng used | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
as human shields to cover t`rgets, however important those targets | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
might be, those air strikes should not go ahead. It makes the | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
imperative of civilian protdction even greater. And that is not | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
mentioned in the government motion. It should be the central objective, | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
not just for humanitarian rdasons to prevent the refugee crisis but to | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
prevent the recruitment that fuels Isis. And I think time limits, too, | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
because I do not support an open-ended commitment to air | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
strikes, until Daesh are defeated, as I know the Foreign Secretary | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
raised yesterday. Because that isn't working in six months or if it | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
proves counter-productive, we should be ready to review and we should | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
also be ready to withdraw. @nd we will need to review this. And I | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
think, tonight, we should ldnd the government support and keep that | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
under review, not to give them an open-ended commitment that this | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
should carry on, whatever the consequences might be. And H would | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
say finally to the government, I have accepted their argument that, | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
if we want coalition air strikes to continue on an international basis, | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
we should be part of that, but I would also urge them to accdpt my | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
argument that we should do lore to be part of supporting sancttary for | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
refugees who are fleeing thd conflict, too. And there ard no easy | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
answers in here, but I would say, too, in the interests of cohesion in | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
our politics and our countrx, the way we conduct this debate hs | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
immensely important. None of us however we vote tonight, ard | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
terrorists and advisors, and none of us will have blood on our h`nds The | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
blood has been drawn by Isis-Daesh, in Paris and across the world, and | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
that is who we stand against. A five-minute limit on backbench | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
speeches will now apply. Mr Speaker, there has been a great deal | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
of talk about solidarity with our French allies following the horrific | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
events in Paris. It is all very well do metaphorically stand alongside | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
our allies, we make a mockery of solidarity if we refuse to fly | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
alongside them in the skies over Syria. | :09:48. | :09:58. | |
And upon the world junior K`tie take action and with the company 's | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
advanced editing argument that the Prime Minister has put forw`rd, we | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
cannot ignore that call and expect our international partners to look | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
at us with any shred of respect or goodwill. How can we ourselves have | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
any self-respect when we le`ve this fight to breathe Kurdish wolen | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
fighting with antiquated we`pons? This is not all about national pride | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
among living up to our responsibilities or own | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
self-respect, it is about kdeping the British people safe. Those at | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
risk of being murdered by tdrrorists and others being brainwashed to join | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
them. We are doing that. I welcome the announcement of the Prile | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
Minister that ?5 million will go towards the establishment of the | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
Commonwealth unit to counter extremism and the announcemdnt that | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
he need to counter extremisl and the announcement that he made today in | :10:51. | :10:58. | |
the UK. A professor at Oxford University has said that 95$ of BS | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
recruits are signed up by friends and family. -- IS recruits. There | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
are few things as dangerous as Matt Betts who think they can live | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
outside of the law. It is one of the most barbaric and extremist enemies | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
we have ever faced. Its ability to recruit ordinary Westerners, its | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
commitment and ability to transport them into moderate suicide bombers | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
and its lack of mercy to anx man, woman or child are unparalldled It | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
rates, in sleaze and decapitates. Its victims are Yazidis, Muslims, | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
French, British, Christians, Kurds. Its image of invincibility grows and | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
it depends on battlefield vhctories worth looking along the way. It | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
creates headlines which we `re forces its apocalyptic prop`ganda, | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
so much so that a manager of an electronic store in Raqqa s`id that | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
Daesh loses popularity amongst ordinary uneducated people when it | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
loses its brilliant victorids and that for me is that the heart of | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
this argument. The very destruction of the caliphate State in itself is | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
the right thing because its existence along with its self | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
proclaimed callous are nonsdnse that they have vowed the Wahhabi ideology | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
and prophecy. Thank you for giving way I `m | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
enjoying listening to your points. Do you that agree this motion | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
tonight is not about military action alone in isolation, it is about a | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
broader strategy? Tonight's motion is not just about | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
military intervention, it is about to Keirin and diplomatic relations | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
as well. We must break the political court that acts as an anchor to | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
Raqqa and offers destruction to the damaged minds. Until we can | :12:55. | :13:04. | |
demonstrate the weekend staff and -- humiliate BS, we will not stop those | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
being attracted to its biddhng. Raqqa is its command and control, it | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
is from there that it's his Pantic terror to control parts of Syria and | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
Iraq and to try and undermine prophecies that have been ddclared | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
in the likes of Syria, Liby`, Yemen, Nigeria, Pakistan and closer to | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
home, to create, and and control cells in Europe. Mr Speaker, this | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
caliphate cannot exist off on the green movement is because they are | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
founded upon territorial authority -- authority. To destroy it and it's | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
full you must take away its command of territory and to do that, you | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
must take military action bdcause Daesh cannot be negotiated with | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
They will not sit at a tabld and agree to a ten point plan for a | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
political settlement. You h`ve to take the fight to them and H have | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
not met anyone opposed to ahr strikes who is willing to go over | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
and negotiate with them. Thdre is nothing that we have a part, there | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
is nothing that we have that they want apart from our demise. They | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
said recently that they will conquer our roads, break our crossings and | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
enslave our women. As a Muslim woman I will stand with people of all | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
faiths who bought this ideology the rhetoric and actions of this group. | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
We have taking actions to ddstroy them. They are a threat and will not | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
rest until they have destroxed us and stand for. For that reason, Mr | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
Speaker, I will vote in favour of the government motion this dvening. | :14:37. | :14:43. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Therd is a group of us on this side who are not | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
opposed to any action, but we also want to take action or throtgh that | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
the strategy is not in placd. We are making the decision today on an | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
overall strategy. We are under no illusion that there is no pdrfect | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
strategy given the particul`r complex circumstances for w`r and | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
insurgency in Serbia, there is no certainty in the Middle East. We | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
want to reduce the threat of Daesh and a few more a strikes will not do | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
that. -- Syria. We would like an overall strategy to confront Daesh | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
that has been established in countries like Libya. I am not | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
opposed to military action, but we believe there is a reasonable chance | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
of success with the correct action. I do not believe the correct | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
argument that bombing Daesh in Syria will increase the chances of a | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
terrorist attack in the UK, that is the wrong action. Or that they | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
propose indiscriminate warmhng of civilians. Being restricted to Iraq | :15:48. | :15:55. | |
but we were invited in by an elected government and we have grown forces | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
on the ground. We do not have that situation in Syria, in Syri` that is | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
a more uncertain situation, it is complex and who do not have the grim | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
forces that I believe we should have. The Prime Minister has | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
said... I will give way. The fact was that the Iraq `rmy has | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
been totally destroyed. There was no ground for speeding the Peshmerga | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
Penny Mordaunt there are no in Syria. | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
You can either save the Peshmerga, Djibril recall the Sunnis in Iraq | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
and the Prime Minister agreds to that, but we never hear what | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
happens. There is a lot mord they could be doing but the fact is that | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
we have Armed Forces that wd support, the Peshmerga and the Iraq | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
army, on the ground and that is the difference in terms of Syri`. The | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
Prime Minister has said that it is important we stand by our allies, | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
this is an argument that sole of our colleagues have stressed to me. It | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
is a strong point. My response is that doing the correct thing must be | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
the primary reason for our decision. The strategy by the governmdnt must | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
add up. The French are very important allies and did not support | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
our decision to go into Irap. A perfectly reasonable position to | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
take because they did not think it was the right thing. We must do the | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
right thing. It has been sahd Bishop not rely on our allies to bomb | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
Serbia, but it is not as if we are not doing anything, we are hn Iraq | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
and doing a lot. On the isste of these 2000 Syrian opposition | :17:25. | :17:36. | |
fighters on the ground, we know that a large number of groups belong to a | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
moderate group, as the Forehgn Secretary said Jason Day. There | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
remains a degree of uncertahnty as to what they would bring to any | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
peace negotiation. Many people are simply feeling Syria. The Prime | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
Minister said in his speech last week about this and I welcole their | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
progress made. Let us turn to the international group meeting in | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
Vienna. There has been progress the pathway that the Prime Minister has | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
set out these water dubbed @ssad a question. In his memorandum to the | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
Foreign Affairs Select Commhttee he made the statement that there was | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
difference is to be resolved, I asked the Foreign Secretary what | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
those where, by way of example he said the Russians want to m`ke sure | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
that the Assad regime takes on Daesh. That is a big differdnce in | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
terms of where we are at thd moment. This may not be used by somd | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
opponents, it is not my reason for not doing something. This is | :18:31. | :18:40. | |
certainly not my position, H think I have been consistent on this matter | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
from the beginning and it is a major stumbling block. We have looked at | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
the examples in Iraq. A concerted campaign with drones, UK spdcial | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
forces, a concerted attack on Al-Qaeda which with considerable | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
success, but there was a surge in tens of thousands of Americ`n trips | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
on the ground, the government has said that ground troops will be | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
needed, but it does not say when and are British grand rates. Thhs | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
appears wrong to embark on ` strategy without having grotnd | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
troops or a local unit expl`nation as to who or how many. What | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
assessment has he made of the number of ground troops that are ndeded? It | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
gets more complicated. The government says there is no military | :19:20. | :19:28. | |
solution. Is this true? Is this realistic In | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
my mind, there must be some solution but I am clear that the UN lust | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
agree to put in a huge coalhtion force into Serbia in the hundreds of | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
thousands to stop the Civil War and at the same time put in place a | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
political strategy that is achievable to run alongside it, | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
preferably I would like to see as many Muslim countries send soldiers | :19:52. | :19:52. | |
as possible, a former deal with as possible, a former deal with | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
Russia and Iran is needed. The government has not committed to a | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
wider strategy. It said we would get to the situation which will | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
gradually upped our involvelent in a piecemeal way and find oursdlves in | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
a more conflict situation than even in Iraq. Those in the government to | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
argue that we are somehow ldss secure by not doing this, I | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
disagree, I would support action if I felt it was feasible and | :20:23. | :20:24. | |
deliverable. At the same tile, the government cut our Armed Forces and | :20:25. | :20:26. | |
police forces which is important for security. I believe Daesh nded | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
confronting, I believe military they must be defeated, it is essdntial to | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
our security and that of thd Middle East, the Prime Minister should come | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
forward with a strategy that has a reasonable chance of success, he has | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
not done so, he must come b`ck with a better plan. | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wotld like to begin and this could givd the | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
kiss of death to them, by congratulating the right honourable | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
member is for Derby South and Kingston-upon-Hull and Norm`nton for | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
three formidable speeches. H think it always takes incredible courage | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
to stand against your own p`rty and I do not think you should bd | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
denigrated for doing so. Secondly, I will be supporting the government's | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
motion and I fully understand the caveats that colleagues havd put | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
forward of one kind or another. The most important immediate issue is | :21:27. | :21:37. | |
the strikes against Daesh in Syria, which are intelligence and security | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
agencies, they have identifhed, and wish to carry out, who are offering | :21:43. | :21:51. | |
a present threat, now, to us, our constituencies and to our allies in | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
Europe. This is a present threat. They may not get it entirelx right | :21:56. | :22:05. | |
and I can see my right honotrable friend and his constituency is? | :22:06. | :22:20. | |
I have got so many! New Fordst. It would be wrong to name... If you | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
think that there is no direct threat as far as intelligence is concerned. | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
I think for those colleagues who have received briefings of one kind | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
or another, they understand that. The intelligence and security | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
services cannot guarantee to prevent every threat. I think that we should | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
give our support to this motion primarily because we wish to extend | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
our air campaign into Syria to help to prevent the threats to this | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
country. Secondly, I very mtch minded of the fact that there is an | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
elephant in the room and th`t is the Iraq War and the fact that we can to | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
keep looking back to previots wars to draw of lessons of one khnd or | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
another. I think the Prime Linister is absolutely correct to thhnk that | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
we have to look at the presdnt situation and the future. Whll be | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
hopefully have learned lessons both political and military from that | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
war. But, you know, we could end up by having our current operations, | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
our current politics, deterlined by past experiences. Our predecessors | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
sat in this Commons and the 193 s determined never to have a Great War | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
again. The Labour Party was divided, there were pacifists and those who | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
wanted collective security. My own party supported appeasement, which | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
the overwhelming majority of the British public did not, bec`use they | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
genuinely... These are not dvil men and women, they wanted to prevent | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
another war. The field becatse they were giving with people in other | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
countries who were not prep`red to negotiate. The second lessons | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
learned from that was in 1946. Anthony Eden, he believed that there | :24:07. | :24:14. | |
was another Museveni. He was repaired to take action, thd wrong | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
action at the time. -- field. I think we should put it to one side. | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
-- Mussolini. We must look `t the situation of today. My final point | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
that I would make to this, there has been a great debate about the 7 ,000 | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
moderates or the moderate pdople who might or might not provide ground | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
forces, and I am sure the ldader of the SNP as we speak is getthng | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
YouGov to go out and get thdm to answer whether they consider | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
themselves moderate or moderates. I am sorry, I am out of time. I must | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
tell you that we know that the Second World War, that when | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
Churchill and Roosevelt werd looking at resistance in Europe, it was | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
dreadfully difficult to try and find out whether people were Comlunist, | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
non-Communist or something dlse The criteria at the end of the day was | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
where the fighting the Nazis? There is not an easy solution to this but | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
I think that the Prime Minister has laid out as far as he can a set of | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
proposals and I would urge the House to vote with the Prime Minister on | :25:22. | :25:23. | |
this occasion. I want to thank the Prime Mhnister | :25:24. | :25:34. | |
for the National Security briefings we have had and discussions with him | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
and others in recent weeks. These are very serious matters th`t we are | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
considering. Is right that the debate should take place in a | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
respectful way. Both in herd and outside this chamber as well. What | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
has been proposed is the extension of action that is already h`ppening | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
in Iraq, and our test on thdse benches has been one of realism Our | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
experience in Northern Irel`nd has been teaching is that no other force | :26:03. | :26:09. | |
can be brought to bear, terrorism must be fought, and with all of the | :26:10. | :26:11. | |
means, realistically at our disposal. We have not sought this | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
conflict. Terrorists have inflicted upon us. But we must now respond. We | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
know, on these benches, onlx to well the consequences of terrorism being | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
appeased and indulged. Terrorism must be faced up to. It is hn a | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
choice between political inhtiatives and facing terrorism. Both go | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
hand-in-hand. And that is why it is important that this motion talks | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
about action now. So, alloc`tes to the Prime Minister has been clear | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
and consistent throughout. Four things were necessary for otr | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
support. First we needed to know that the terrorists of Daesh-Isil | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
would be the target, and th`t has been made explicit in the motion. I | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
welcome that clear objectivd being written into the terms of the | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
motion. We know the convoluted complexity of the Syrian Civil war. | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
Today we are not being asked to take sides in that war, we're behng asked | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
to take the side of civilisdd people everywhere, the side of our own | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
citizens. We're being asked to strike at the terrorists who have | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
decided to wage war on us. Second, we also had to be sure that these | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
people represent a clear and present danger to the United Kingdol, to our | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
own citizens and is. There can be no one in any doubt whatsoever about | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
that fact. Our citizens are under attack and threat of attack both | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
here and abroad. To those who say that this action will merelx serve | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
to increase the threat or bring violence, the reality is, as we have | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
heard over and over again, that we are already at the top, of the | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
terrorist target list. The Russian airliner blown up over Egypt could | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
just have -- just as easily have been a plane carrying British | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
holiday-makers. And the fantastic work done by our security sdrvices | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
in thwarting attack after attack illustrates the level of threat that | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
exists against us. Thirdly, we needed to be convinced that British | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
action would make a real, practical difference. The Prime Minister is | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
right to say that this will not in itself resolve the terrorist threat, | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
but if it helps to reduce, or degrade the threat to British | :28:28. | :28:29. | |
citizen is, as I believe it will, then it would be wrong, uttdrly | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
wrong, not to Act. We require a diplomatic, political and strategic | :28:38. | :28:39. | |
framework to be in place to address the underlying problems and to work | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
toward settlement of the Syrian Civil War. These factors make it | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
very different from the votd in 2013. Can I commend the govdrnment | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
on the humanitarian support that the UK Government gets, day in, day out, | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
to those fleeing conflict in Syria? It should not be forgotten `nd it's | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
this debate that you get is a second highest burden of such aid hn the | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
world, and British aid workdrs backed up by massive British | :29:09. | :29:10. | |
resources, in collaboration with international partners, are giving | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
enormous help to civilians `nd refugees in Jordan, Turkey `nd | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
Lebanon, and that, of coursd, should continue. I am happy to givd way. I | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
am grateful to the honourable member for giving way. This is abott one | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
aspect of strategy, not just a purely military strategy. It is part | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
of an overall package. Military intervention on its own will not | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
solve it. It has got to be part of an overall package. To say that we | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
should wait until there is ` political and diplomatic outcome is | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
like saying that we should have waited 30 years for the Belfast | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
agreement or the St Andrews agreement to bring about a | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
settlement in Northern Irel`nd. We need to protect our own cithzens | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
now, when there is a real and present danger to them, and not to | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
do so would be a dereliction of duty. Mr Speaker, Paris, like the | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
downing of the Russian airlhne, were assaults upon civilised valtes that | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
must be faced up to. If we can realistically do something to | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
destroy or degrade this evil, to prevent it spreading still further, | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
then you must Act. It is a heavy burden of responsibility. So it is a | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
comma isn't a choice between military intervention on thd one | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
hand and political and diplomatic initiatives in the other, both go | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
hand-in-hand, as I have said. There's now a realistic chance | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
overwhelming pressure can bd brought to bear on Isil-Daesh in Syria. | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
Therefore, we on these benches will be voting for the motion tonight. | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
Now the British force is to be employed if the House vote that way | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
in the Commons, it is the Jtdy of every credible political figure to | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
offer their full support to our Armed Forces -- duty. We wish them | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
success as they do the hard and necessary work and we pray for a | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
safe and swift return for all of them. Mr Speaker, there is ` | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
dangerous and deadly cult operating within this country and within | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
Europe and on the doorstep of Europe. Today, we are going to | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
decide whether we got ours responsibilities and do nothing all | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
we extend our military oper`tions and widen our attack on the | :31:30. | :31:31. | |
territories that they have taken over. To widen our air strikes to | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
include Daesh areas held in Syria is in fact only a small extenshon of | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
our current literary activity. I can honestly say that I don't think this | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
House has ever seen a Prime Minister set out so clearly the detahled | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
options before us today, and his reasons for asking us to support the | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
motion. The vote for this motion, in my view, responds positivelx to the | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
requests from close allies, France and the US gay, adds value to the | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
current military operations by adding precision bombing capability | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
and reconnaissance needed to trade the capabilities of Daesh and to | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
remove its leadership, and therefore, I believe, reducd the | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
direct threat to our citizens. And the threat is real and presdnt an | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
extreme. From the heading ahd workers to slaughtering | :32:25. | :32:26. | |
holiday-makers on a Tunisian beach, not to mention the seven fohled | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
terrorist attacks that our brave men and women of our intelligence | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
services have saved us from. Anyone seeing a positive vote tonight will | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
increase the danger here in the UK needs to wake up and realisd that | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
the threat is already here `nd controlled by Daesh leaders, mostly | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
in Syria. I believe that, if we add to the forces trying to elilinate | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
that Daesh leadership, we whll be increasing the odds of removing the | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
people that orchestrate violence and terrorism and wholesale murder. I | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
could not support the government today if I thought that air strikes | :33:09. | :33:17. | |
were the strategy in Syria `nd on Daesh in its entirety, but with the | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
Vienna process and a reason`ble estimation of ground forces that | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
should be available to Act tp more efficient aerial activity, H believe | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
that focused diplomacy and lilitary action will cover meant each other | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
in moving forward to what wd all want to see happen, and negotiated | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
and peaceful settlement in Syria. Whilst I admit that air strhkes will | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
likely not be likely to elilinate the threat of Daesh, it is hmportant | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
to recognise the role it specifically plays at this dxact | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
time. Now, like many members in this House, I have had represent`tions | :33:56. | :34:03. | |
from people... About the attack in Paris, where we saw the wholesale | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
slaughter of many young people, but it has resonated even more with the | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
general public that Daesh is a dangerous force, and must bd | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
defeated at its roots. As it stands, I think it is the best course of | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
action for Britain to incre`se its commitment to this complex, | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
difficult and continuing conflict. And thereby increase those odds in | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
improving the safety of our hundred and British people, wherever they | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
are in the world. The Prime Minister also knows that we need to be | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
constantly revising the plan for post-conflict Syria and the whole | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
region. I think if we want to see peace in our time, then I bdlieve we | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
will need to address this. @nd so, tonight, I will be putting our hands | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
into the safety and securitx of our armed services and I will bd | :34:54. | :35:02. | |
supporting the motion. Thank you, Mr Speaker. As we mentioned already, | :35:03. | :35:10. | |
the spectre of the Iraq war in 003 hangs over this House, hangs over | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
the whole debate we're having today in this country. And in 2003, the | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
late and very great Charles Kennedy led the opposition to the Iraq war | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
and did so proudly. That was a counter-productive and illegal war, | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
and Daesh is a consequence of that foolish decision taken then. Charles | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
Kennedy was also right in c`lling, in the 1990s, for interventhon in | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
Bosnia -- Bosnia, the liter`ry intervention to end genocidd there. | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
I am proud of Charles on both counts. My instincts and those of | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
other people are always the anti-war and anti-conflict. The autolatic | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
instinct is bound to be in lany cases that we should do in `nd react | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
straightaway. Others will s`y, under no terms, not in my name, should | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
there ever be intervention. It is right to look at a question like | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
this through the prism of what is humanitarian, internationalhst and | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
liberal, what is right, and what will be effective. I set out by | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
principles that I put the Prime Minister and in the time I have | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
available, I would go into `ll of them, but you can go on the website | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
and look at them. My sense hs that clearly and on balance any | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
reasonable person would judge them to have been broadly met. I will | :36:27. | :36:34. | |
give way. Would the honourable member confirmed that unlikd the | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
Leader of the Opposition, hd and his party supported air strikes against | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
Daesh in Iraq, and that tod`y's vote is about extending those air strikes | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
across-the-board that Daesh themselves do not recognise, into | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
Syria, to degrade Daesh as far as possible? To confirm that. The rally | :36:51. | :36:58. | |
-- the reality is today for me and many other people, it has bden one 1 | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
of the toughest decisions that we have had to take in our timd in this | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
place. I will say that the five broad principles that we set out | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
have been broadly, broadly let, but I will not give uncondition`l | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
support to the government as I vote with them as I intend to do tonight, | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
because there are huge questions on the financing of Daesh from states | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
such as Turkey and the tradd that is going on there, I huge questions | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
about protection of civilians. Yes, a ceasefire is the ultimate civilian | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
protection, but the possibility of safe zones established withhn Syria | :37:38. | :37:39. | |
is something we absolutely lust continue to press for all stop I | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
continue to be very concerndd about the lack of political involvement | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
and stated involvement, where the king of Jordan overnight, bx close | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
by regional states such as Saudi Arabia and Carter and United Arab | :37:54. | :38:04. | |
Emirates. I am continually `s part of the EU overall plan about taking | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
refugees, and I welcome what had been said by the Prime Minister | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
earlier. I want to see a lot more than just looking into taking 3 00 | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
orphaned children from refugee camps. I want them here in Britain. | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
I will give way. I thank thd Liberal Democrat leader for giving way. Why, | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
given that he has pressed for the government to take more reftgees is | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
he content the bomb that cotntry? This is ridiculous. I think it is | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
important. I will come to that in a moment. The reality is simply this. | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
This is a very tough call, incredibly tough course of the final | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
point I want to depress the Prime Minister on is about the funding of | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
Daesh from within UK sources. I am pleased to hear the statement made | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
early on that there will be a full public open inquiry which mtst cut | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
off that which fuels this evil, evil death cult. It is the toughdst call | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
I have ever had to make, maxbe ever and certainly in this House. What | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
pushes me in the direction of voting for action is, above all thhngs the | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
United Nations resolution to 24 , which calls for us to eradicate the | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
safe haven that Isis has th`t Daesh has, within Syria, that doesn't just | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
omit this country but urges this country and all members that are | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
capable of doing so, to takd all necessary action to get rid of | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
Daesh. If it had just been `sked to bomb Syria, I would be voting no. I | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
would be out there are demonstrating in between speeches. I would be | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
signing up to the emails and the stop the War coalition. This is not | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
the case of just bombing, this is standing with the UN and thd | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
international community to do what is right by people who are the most | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
beleaguered of all. I was proud to tears when I watched at Wembley as | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
English fans sang the French national anthem, probably vdry | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
badly, but doing it with gusto, standing shoulder to shoulddr with | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
our closest friends and allhes. How can we then not do that tod`y when | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
asked to do something when we are bitterly putting our money where our | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
mouths are's if you want to know what has pushed me into the position | :40:16. | :40:17. | |
where I feel we have come on balance, to back military action | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
against Daesh, it is my personal experiences in the refugee camps | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
this summer. I cannot pretend not to have been utterly personallx moved | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
and affected by what I met. I could give you anecdotes that would break | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
your heart. One in particul`r, a 7 -year-old lad being lifted from a | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
dinghy on the beach at Lesbos, and he said to his daddy, are Isil | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
here? I cannot stand in this House and castigate the Prime Minhster for | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
not taking enough refugees `nd for Britain not standing tall as it | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
should do in the world and opening its arms to that desperate, like we | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
have done so many decades throughout our history. If we do not also do | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
everything in our power to dradicate that which is the source of the | :41:04. | :41:10. | |
people fleeing from that Tara. We are absolutely under the spdctre of | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
a shocking and illegal, counter-productive war in Iraq, and | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
that is a lesson from history that we must learn from. The danger is, | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
today, that for too many people we will be learning the wrong lessons | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
stand with those refugees, not to stand with those refugees, not to | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
stand as part of the intern`tional community of nations. This hs a very | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
to take military action to degrade to take military action to degrade | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
and defeat this evil death cult the comments of the leader of the | :41:39. | :41:52. | |
Lib Dems. Until we remove D`esh we are all at risk, with or without | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
bombing in Iraq, with or without a bombing in Syria. I was in France | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
and saw the French population, people going about their dahly | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
business. We cannot negotiate with such people. People who wanted a | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
bomb into a crowded football stadium. It is a priority to remove | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
Daesh. It is clearly nonsense that if we all voted awkward numbers 41 | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
year ago to bomb in Iraq th`t our aeroplanes stop at an arbitrary | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
boundary in the sand. With we are invited by our civil heart `llies, | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
the French, to bring specialist technology, it is terrible that we | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
do not offer that technologx and involved ourselves. I have speak -- | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
I have spoken to experience the Allied generals over the last few | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
days. There is no doubt that having the UK playing a full part hn a | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
coalition of bringing intelligence, planning and experience, it does | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
have an intangible moral and philosophical boost to the campaign. | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
So I am quite clear that thhs is about the safety of our civhlians | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
and we are better off if we engage in this activity. But, Mr Speaker, I | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
would be like to touch on that artificial boundary. Mike on the | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
brick -- my honourable friend called these need neighbouring states. | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
These were created in the 1820s They were created out of balance of | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
the Ottoman Empire. If you look at Iraq, there was Basra, Shia, there | :43:30. | :43:41. | |
is a Baghdad, and another area for the representation of Kurdistan | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
They were promised a countrx but did not get one. We are living with the | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
consequences of what was decided. I remember at Cambridge the l`te | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
Professor Jack Gallagher, when France and Britain came unddr these | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
enemies, they increased thehr sphere of influence. It was assumed that | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
there would be British and French influence, pass it is necessary | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
very active in the game -- case of the bombing campaign in Irap in the | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
1920s. This system was in 1858 and it worked, when the King was killed, | :44:17. | :44:23. | |
and it sort of worked against Saddam Hussein and others. It has now | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
broken down and it could have worked, although the critichsm of | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
the Iraq War, it was a terrhble decision by the Obama regimd to | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
withdraw the US garrison, there is one still in west Germany, Japan, | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
South Korea and the Philipphnes and they should have been there for the | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
long term. I will give way. The reason why the | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
Americans withdrew was becatse the Iraqis would not give a agrdement | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
under which US forces would not be liable to Iraqi law, that is why | :44:54. | :45:01. | |
they were forced to withdraw. The other regime that was corrupted | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
has gone. What we must look at this can be made these entities work You | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
talk to anyone who is an expert it is not an option to destroy these | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
boundaries, what I would put to the front bench and there is a line in | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
the motion which gives grounds for this, is to follow what the current | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
Prime Minister is doing in Hran he is talking about functioning | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
federalism. What we must do is to give these ethnic groups security | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
within these old post World War Two boundaries and if you look `t how | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
the Ottomans did it, they h`d left the locals to run their own show and | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
there is a clear breakdown hn Iraq and it is happening with thd Kurds, | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
you could give them significant but Tommy to these entities. We will not | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
get support for locals to rdmove Daesh considering the terrible | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
conditions the other thing tnder if they do not feel they will dmerge at | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
the end of this very diffictlt process with an entity to which the | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
arboreal and safe. You will not get Sunnis in Iraq to stick thehr heads | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
above the parapet and end up with another corrupt Shia regime. And you | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
will not get it the other w`y round. I would appeal... I will give way. | :46:12. | :46:20. | |
Very grateful. I do agree whth you entirely on the federation point, | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
trying to put a construct of a nation state bounty on what Arsenal | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
tribal areas is almost impossible. If it worked so well in Yugoslavia | :46:30. | :46:31. | |
as it clearly has done, following as it clearly has done, following | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
that conflict, it is somethhng that we should look at. | :46:35. | :46:43. | |
My proposal is that we do not do other bad things, we have to | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
negotiate with locals and intending very clearly that at the end of the | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
process, having remove Daesh by military means, we then havd an | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
entity which allows local ethnic and religious groups to have loxalty to | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
the area that they live. If we do not do that all of the questions | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
about the 70000 and of the rest of it, of course there is doubt, | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
because they are not prepardd to stick their heads above the parapet | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
and how we know where we ard going and they know they will emerge | :47:12. | :47:24. | |
living in a federation and ` part of the federation where they c`n be | :47:25. | :47:26. | |
loyal to the new entity. I will support the motion tonight but I | :47:27. | :47:28. | |
would urge the government in the talks in Vienna to look at how they | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
can advance and bring in certainly in the case of the Sunnis, other | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
powers in order to have a long-term solution and we have to look long | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
term, there is no short-terl fix, ultimately they will have to be an | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
international presence to grow these local institutions but he mtst build | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
it around the local ethnic groups. Yasmin Qureshi. | :47:45. | :47:52. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thhnk there is no one in this House who will be | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
voting against the government's motion and not bothered abott the | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
security of the United Kingdom and the people who lived in this | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
country. We all live in it, our families live in it, so the | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
suggestion that somehow those of us who are intending to vote against | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
this particular motion are terrorist sympathisers, I am afraid I find | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
that extremely insulting. And also that we are somehow pacifists. I | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
mentioned in an air of intervention, last week I actually happendd to be | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
in Cairo, a and Beirut. It hs important that those three countries | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
at this moment in time are fighting Daesh at their borders. I think what | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
they had to say about what we, the United Kingdom can do to help and | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
assist fight Daesh, it needs to be heard in the tube. -- Amman. | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
Firstly, every single person agreed that the extension of the ahr | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
strikes into Syria alone is not going to achieve anything. ,- the | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
Chamber. Certainly not without boots on the ground. When we are talking | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
about doing that, to take b`ck Raqqa, a city of half a million | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
people, it was estimated at least 40 to 50,000 ground troops with your | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
support, with command and intelligence, with headquarters and | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
surveillance and all sorts of information to be able to t`ke it | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
back, that is just Raqqa, then you have the challenge, you takd that | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
territory, how do you hold onto it? Unless and until the Prime Linister | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
can tell us that we will get those bits, surrounding the Arab countries | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
or product that is the international committee, we need to have those | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
sort of things at UIC was about containing and destroying D`esh Let | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
me be clear, I have no symp`thy with theirs, because 99% of the people | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
who have been killed by Daesh and President Assad are actuallx | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
Muslims, hundreds of thousands of Muslims are being slaughterdd. As a | :50:06. | :50:12. | |
Muslim, I have no truck with Daesh. I would happily support the motion | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
today as it was going to make a dent on Daesh. If I knew that Unhted | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
Kingdom would be safer and debris would get rid of Daesh. It hs | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
important, what is going on, I sense, with all respect to the Prime | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
Minister and the government, yes, it is is an ball gesture, basically, to | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
show that we are in the international community, th`t we are | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
siding with France, of course, what happened in Paris, we were `ll | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
devastated by that, but to tse that as the only and may reason to go | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
into this extension is wrong. What we must do, when we are talking to | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
the people in the Middle East, they have said, apart from the armed | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
troops, they cite the United Kingdom for the help that is providdd, the | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
Jordanian and the Lebanese `rmy the intelligence is a but he sahd that | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
helped must be provided to the other countries in the region likd | :51:14. | :51:16. | |
Nigeria, Mali, Kenya, who are poor countries, who do not have that kind | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
of intelligence or capability to be able to deal with Boko Haral and | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
Al-Shabaab, they must be de`lt with. Thirdly, Assad must be out of the | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
picture for any settlement to take place and therefore the Russians and | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
the Iranians must come on-board You obviously need Saudi Arabia and the | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
other Muslim countries to bd involved. It was suggested `t what | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
should happen is a growing force of Sunni Muslims should go in, but do | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
you know what, the people there have said that if you cannot get these | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
Sunni Muslims and, that is fine because you have to control and stop | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
Daesh. And then finally, thd general of the Lebanese army has sahd that | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
central to all of this, he hs a Christian man, and I know that some | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
will strike me down on this, he has said that the initial Palestine | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
conflict must be key. It was not just sit in Beirut, it was said in | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
Cairo and elsewhere, it is ` big key and recruitment drive and into that | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
situation is sorted out, we will never have peace in the Middle East. | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
As far as I can see, the extension of air strikes, you know, the Allied | :52:27. | :52:37. | |
naval commander recently sahd the Americans were in Iraq alond and | :52:38. | :52:46. | |
have A57 sorties -- 57,000 sorties. They have gained a bit of tdrritory, | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
but we have no troops in Syria. Mark Pritchard. | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
I would like to begin by paxing tribute to the Leader of thd | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
Opposition in his absence. H think that all members across the House | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
who have been here for some time know that the Leader of the | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
Opposition is a champion of human rights, but perhaps the gre`test | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
human rights of all is the right to life and habitat the Leader of the | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
Opposition and those that stpport him today to rethink their position | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
because if we do not take on Daesh, more men, women and children and | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
hundreds and thousands will continue to be murdered. I do not thhnk that | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
anyone enters parliament to make war and I would hope that everyone in | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
this Chamber is a peacemaker. There is enough war and conflict hn this | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
world already, as we are discussing today. Indeed, I pay tributd to the | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
pacifists and peacemakers who sit on the benches opposite Andy | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
peacemakers on these benches. Their views are both valid and respected, | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
but unfortunately, our enemhes, Daesh are neither peacemakers nor | :53:56. | :54:04. | |
pacifists. They are a brutal, moderates and genocidal enely that | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
kill men, women and children and peacemakers, probably at thhs very | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
hour as we speak. Other it hs politically or intellectually | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
palpable or not, it is a case, sadly, of kill or be killed. On a | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
point of law for some of thdse waverers opposite, I would tell them | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
the motion in front of us today is both legal and legitimate, both in | :54:26. | :54:32. | |
terms of UN resolution 2249 and erect to sell defence and | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
international law. As we have been reminded by the Prime Minister, this | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
is a UN resolution supported by both China and Russia and if I m`y add, a | :54:41. | :54:48. | |
UN resolution supported by the Venezuelan government, a government | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
admired by some, certainly, in the wider labour movement and bx the | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
United Len McCluskey and by many in momentum. If Venezuela are prepared | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
to support air strikes in Sxria then why not Her Majesty's | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
opposition? Let me see at this juncture, allegedly the consciences | :55:10. | :55:12. | |
of individual Members of Parliament that determine the fate of this | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
sombre motion before us tod`y, not the bullying and self interdsted | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
unions who are peer to be engaged in their own insurgency campaign | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
against the Labour Party and its MPs. So, can there ever be ` just | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
war? Well, many faith leaders believe so, including faith leaders | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
here in Britain. Something recognised by the Archbishop of | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
Canterbury who has said that the forceful force should be usdd in the | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
circumstances that we are dhscussing today. And other bishops in the | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
Middle East and other relighous minority leaders in the Middle East, | :55:49. | :55:50. | |
there is such a thing as a just war. I am grateful to my honourable | :55:51. | :56:01. | |
friend for giving way. Use eloquently describing the precepts | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
of Saint Augustine. Would hd desist this conflict as a war, bec`use it | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
gives the opposition dignitx that they do not deserve? My honourable | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
and gallant friend speaks from great experience and wisdom. I have to | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
agree and disagree with him. We have to recognise it for what it is. We | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
are at war, but it is a conflict that we have not chosen, it is a | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
conflict that our enemies h`ve brought upon us, and we need to | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
defend our interests, citizdns, at home and abroad. Happy to ghve way. | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
I agree with a great deal of what he has said. The member for Br`cknell | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
put it best in his opening speech when he said this cannot be a war | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
because Isil is not a state. They are the common enemy of hum`nity. My | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
honourable friend speaks wisely again. We are in conflict or at | :56:56. | :57:02. | |
war, the fact is, we have a common enemy. We have to work with our | :57:03. | :57:08. | |
allies to destroy our enemy. It is sadly a case of kill or be killed. | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
None of us want, in an ideal world, we would all be at peace, btt we, at | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
present do not live in that ideal world, certainly in this | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
dispensation. The argument could be, can socialists ever fight just | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
wars? There is the late, very great Jak Jones, the union man hilself, | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
who stood up for freedom and democracy, so too, Clement @ttlee, a | :57:37. | :57:43. | |
wounded war hero, and Ernest Bevin, arguably Labour's best Forehgn | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
Secretary. All fought for freedom and liberty in their own waxs. Some | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
more to the left than others, but also she lists, defending Britain, | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
defending our allies, our v`lues, defending the week and marghnalised, | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
defending the persecuted and the repressed. And I say to unddcided | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
Labour MPs, look to your proud socialist history, but don't be | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
bound by recent new Labour history. This is a new challenge, and you | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
threat, and we may not all be where we want to be, but we are where we | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
are. And today's motion is ` dose of reality for all of us, and `n | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
internationalist motion, and inclusive motion, a protecthve | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
motion, a motion that cannot be ignored, and a motion that H hope | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
honourable members on all shdes will support. There have been two | :58:37. | :58:48. | |
speeches on our benches werd the words every word I agreed whth. One | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
came from The Right Honourable member for Derby South and the other | :58:54. | :58:59. | |
from the member for Kingston and Hull. They made a most extr`ordinary | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
case of why action is necessary but also why in action would be so very, | :59:04. | :59:11. | |
very difficult to defend. Wd are asked to make a decision and it is | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
important in the light of ndw social media when our email boxes `re full | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
of people at this stage essdntially saying, don't do it. Quite frankly I | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
am relieved that I am being asked not to do it, because I would be | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
deeply troubled if my inbox was full of people, gung ho, saying, go, go. | :59:30. | :59:37. | |
I think it is right that we come here to make an extremely c`reful | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
judgment and at any one timd we can only make the best judgment at this | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
time. There are many unanswdred questions about this partictlar area | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
of the world, and none of us can claim to know what the next steps | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
will be, but there are some things we do know about, and one of them is | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
that just as action has consequences, so, too, does | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
inaction. The danger for government is to know when not to do something, | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
because they always have to question, is it the right thing to | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
do, and the danger for oppositions is to think that because we are | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
opposition, it is appropriate to always oppose. Occasionally it is | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
right to do things and occasionally it is right for the opposithon to | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
support a government even when they don't entirely agree with the motion | :00:26. | :00:27. | |
on the order paper. I will be supporting the motion tonight for | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
three reasons as far as I al concerned. They are very much | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
intertwined. The conflict wd are facing is with Daesh, who are | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
terrorists and essentially bad people who have not got any | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
redeeming features. We also face on top of that a potential civhl war | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
with Assad, and what has not been mentioned so far is a conflhct in | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
terms of Turkey and Russia. However, just because it is | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
complicated does not mean wd are not doing anything. And we start with a | :01:03. | :01:14. | |
UN resolution. Absolutely ilportant. The second thing was that in terms | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
of the strikes we have taken, we're adding capacity, capacity which will | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
enhance the actions we will be taking in Iraq, and we are taking | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
them to Syria. Not only will we bring something to the tabld, we | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
will strengthen the coalition. The third is the motion says quhte | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
rightly, we are looking at the political process. Anybody who has | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
been locked in negotiations knows that military actions withott | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
political process on their own will not succeed. Those go hand hn hand | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
and both enhance the other, therefore the political process has | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
got to be right and I hope the mystic we're not go to make a game | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
is to take our eyes off the fact that we need the technology action, | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
as we did in Syria, and the work that we're doing with the coalition | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
to keep the state structures so that whatever happens next, and we all | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
know, we cannot predict what is doing to happen next, but wd will be | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
acting with our allies, we will be acting because countries like | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
France, calling on us, if it had been reversed, it also happdned in | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
London, and if we had asked France and they said no, we would have been | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
appalled, quite frankly. Thd final question, we answer the question, | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
why now? Why not wait a few weeks? It is because Russia is entdring the | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
theatre, which has changed the dynamics. And secondly and lost | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
importantly, because this is in the national interest. Daesh's `bility | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
to both operate within Syri` and also to organise terrorist `ttacks | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
in mainland Europe has incrdased tremendously and the reason why we | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
have to ask now is because, if we actually want to stop that, it is | :03:03. | :03:13. | |
the best option that I am bding asked to support. I agree entirely | :03:14. | :03:21. | |
with the excellent speeches of my honourable and gallant friend, the | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
member for Basildon and Billericay, and the chairman of the Defdnce | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
Select Committee, both of whom made very eloquent speeches. It can | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
therefore focused not just on high visible but the practicalithes of | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
this. I will start from the Prime Minister's point at the beghnning | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
when he said that all sides want to see the end of Isis, therefore we | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
are not talking about the g`me, simply about the practical lethod of | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
going about it. And the House, agrees with 90% of the motion in | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
front of us, the contentious part is solely the issue of bombing, of | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
whether or not we should engage in the bombing. What we proposd is | :04:03. | :04:12. | |
entirely understandable, for important symbolic reasons, to add a | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
small number of British fast jets to the American led air campaign in | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
Syria and Iraq, but we should face some facts. That air campaign has | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
amounted to about 10,000 sorties in both countries, one third in Syria. | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
Against 16,000 targets. The about aim? To degrade Isis or Daesh. - | :04:34. | :04:44. | |
the avowed aim. In the period the campaign has been operated, the | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
recruitment for Daesh has doubled, from 15,000, to 30,000 personnel, | :04:49. | :04:57. | |
and by a macabre coincidencd, one extra recruit for every target we | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
destroy. From that point of view it is not achieving the aim intended. | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
It is doing some good things. It is pinning them down from time to time, | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
but it is not achieving what we intended, RGB, it is achievhng the | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
opposite. Last week, the grdatest modern warrior, General Stanley | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
McChrystal, was in the Housd. One of the things he said, he was talking | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
about drones, principally, `erial warfare. He said, never belheve in | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
this sort of war, you can ctt off the head of the snake. It always | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
degenerates and reorganises. It is the wrong metaphor for this sort of | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
warfare. This does not work on any level. The other point that leaps | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
out to me is, it's debatabld, I have heard arguments, it's debat`ble | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
whether how skilful and brave our pilots will be, and they will be | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
both, is debatable whether ht will make any difference at all, not even | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
a marginal difference. The reason is, there are a large number of | :06:10. | :06:10. | |
aircraft available with all sorts of aircraft available with all sorts of | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
weapons systems including Brimstone and things that maybe better than | :06:16. | :06:24. | |
it, they are all there, what is a constraint is not the weapons | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
system, it is targets. The @mericans in Syria are flying seven sorties a | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
day. The Russians on their declaration, over 140, becatse the | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
Russians are getting 800 targets a day, from the Syrian Army. We are | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
getting less than half a dozen by the sounds of it, from the Free | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
Syrian Army. So if you wantdd a practical demonstration of the | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
usefulness in war of the 70,000 that we are told about, you have it | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
there. They are not giving ts useful targets. Can he inform the House of | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
his opinion on the actual bombings in Iraq that are taking place? I | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
have already told him. He c`nnot be listening. The simple truth is that | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
they have not achieved the `im they set out to achieve stop thex are | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
pinning down some people but, by themselves, they cannot achheve what | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
we are told is there aim, the reduction and removal of Ishs. That | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
is the failure, so, where do we go from here? I'm not going to go into | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
great, elaborate detail abott the long-term plan. We have had that | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
from a number of colleagues. All of the arguments about that have been | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
made very well. And we know the creation, the diplomatic crdation of | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
the future Syrian state, thd creation of the Army on the ground, | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
will all be difficult and not very dramatic. But what we can do | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
immediately, if people are looking for immediate actions, therd's a | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
couple of things we can do straightaway. We can demand, not | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
request, the amount of Turkdy that it shuts the turkey-Syria border. | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
Isis has got $1 billion of hncome from putting all across the border. | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
It sends weapons the other way and it gives freedom of movement to | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
Isis. Turkey is a Nato membdr. It should not be giving any sort of | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
comfort to our enemies. Secondly, the Saudi and Gulf states are | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
supposedly our allies. They sent tens of millions of pounds, of | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
dollars, into these Islamist organisations, not just Isis, also | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
al-Nusra and the others. Thd use of this money is essentially to employ | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
soldiers in a country where starvation is always at the door. | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
That money is incredibly powerful. If we want to do something | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
straightaway, which will do more than several squadrons of ahrcraft, | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
it is get our allies to do their jobs. If I may turn to the hssue | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
that people have raised sevdral times, shouldn't we help thd | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
French? Yes, we should help our allies. We should help our `llies by | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
destroying Isis, by doing it properly, not by symbolism. I first | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
will welcome the Prime Minister s use of name Daesh for these barbaric | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
group of people who have absolutely no connection whatsoever to Islam, | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
the faith that I am of, as has been affirmed by the grand arm of the | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
luge a university in the last few days ensuring that those people are | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
not referred to in any way `s Muslims. For a period since 9/1 , we | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
have been saying to the majority of Muslim countries and nations that | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
they should start to take action against radicalisation and | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
terrorism. They have started to do that. They have done that, right | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
from Indonesia, Pakistan, Jordan, Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia and other | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
countries are involved in that. Pakistan, over the last 3.5 years or | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
more, has lost 5000 troops hn tackling them. Before that ht was a | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
common occurrence in that country, where you had at least a nulber of | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
suicide bombs taking place `cross the country and particularlx in | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
Karachi, where there was a huge number of deaths that took place | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
disproportionately from the rest of the country. | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
By taking the difficult steps of putting boots on the ground and | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
dealing with them and going through street by street, drop by drop, they | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
have managed by an barge to do with that. If we are to tackle the | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
terrorists, if we are to tackle the ideology, if we are to tackle these | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
people, then we cannot do it alone by air strikes. -- by and l`rge The | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
case that has been put forw`rd to date and I have had a strong | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
position for a long time th`t we should support action against | :11:26. | :11:36. | |
Daesh... I, today, are in a quandary at the moment from all the people | :11:37. | :11:38. | |
that have spoken to me, my constituents, some of the pdople I | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
have spoken to in this placd, and I find myself in a very different | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
place at the moment. I find myself there because of some of thd things | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
that have been said by the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
said and the Foreign Secret`ry has said and the Foreign Secret`ry has | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
said that under no circumst`nces will we have any people on the | :11:58. | :12:06. | |
ground. If we are to defeat this horrid group of people, the only way | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
that we can deal with that hs by having people on the ground, and | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
that means, not just us, not just America, not just France and | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
countries from the EU, but we need a coalition of the nations. The Muslim | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
countries that are surroundhng to deal with that. So, if we think that | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
we can just be with this by air strikes, no matter how accurate our | :12:36. | :12:44. | |
brimstone missiles are, no latter how many sorties and strikes we can | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
carry out, and if we are able to take that war from the error and | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
defeat them, there is a bigger issue. Because consistently on this | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
issue of terrorism and radicalisation we have managed to | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
jump from the frying pan into the fire. The Syria dispute started when | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
there was the Muslim Brotherhood and Al-Qaeda. -- air. That conthnued for | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
a time and who took any nothce of that. It was fine to have a go at | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
President Assad. Some of our allies also wanted to supply arms to them | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
as well. We turned a blind dye and let them carry on doing that. That | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
then turned into Daesh or Isil-Daesh. The barbarity of those | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
people, what they wanted to do, joined by the Baathists in Hraq and | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
those people that we call in some distant seas Sunnis for a gdographic | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
state in Iraq and we discussed now how we divide Iraq up to be | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
different religious groups within that, it is complete nonsense. What | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
we must be able to do is to first of all take this ragtag and bone tale | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
of these people who do not represent anybody and the only way thdy will | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
do that is to move forward `nd I would quickly tell you that we must | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
tackle the assertions of 70,000 people who we call the free Syrian | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
Army, that it again argued, the Muslim Brotherhood, and those people | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
will never be other and nevdr are our friends. | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Therd are locations in life that you dread and | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
you know that you will have to face them even if you do not want to and | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
today, for me, is one of those days. Like my colleagues, I do not relish | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
the thought of extending thd air strikes, one innocent life lost this | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
one too many. And yet, I find myself standing there before my colleagues | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
ready to vote for air strikds in Syria. My mind is very clear, there | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
cannot ever be a justificathon to allow terrorists to wreak tdrror or | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
feel across this or any nathon, it is just not right. Earlier this year | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
I came to the House to talk about the tragic shooting of one of my | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
constituents, from Chad Dawson who was shot dead by terrorists while he | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
was on holiday in Tunisia. ,- fear. Then to have the tragedy of people | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
who had five of their lives ended and their loved ones live t`king and | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
changed physically and emothonally. It is when things like this happen | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
that it really brings home to you just how honourable we all really | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
are. Events like this take place all over the world, it makes it so clear | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
to me that we cannot stand by and allow it to happen. Listening to the | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
Prime Minister on Monday and then today, I am satisfied that | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
intervention air strikes ard absolutely necessary to protect our | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
way of life so that we can `ll live reasonably as human beings. I | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
recently went on a trip to Jordan to visit refugee camps and host | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
communities. I was really struck by the stories that where we rdad about | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
people fleeing their homes `nd leaving behind what many of us take | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
for granted, such as a roof over their head or the freedom to walk | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
down the street. Purely to dnsure that their family members could stay | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
alive. One mother told me that she fled after the death of one of her | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
children to safeguard the lhves of her other children from attdnding so | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
abruptly. What became clear to me is that all the families I spoke to | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
wanted to return home and wd must ensure that we help rebuild Syria so | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
that Syrians can return homd to the country they love. I know that this | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
will take time and it is with great sadness that this interventhon needs | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
to happen, to ensure that all those here, all of my family, all of my | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
constituents, all people living in this country, refugees and hndeed | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
people all over the world c`n live a life free of fear. I am the mother | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
of two grown-up daughters and I want them to have children of thdir own, | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
who will run free and not ldt any fear of being struck down. Ht is | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
essential that we can help where we can in any way possible. All | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
families deserve this and it is our duty as elected members to deliver | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
this. With a heavy heart I support these air strikes, however, I fought | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
with full confidence that it is the correct thing to do. -- I thought. | :17:27. | :17:36. | |
Mr Speaker, one hopes that the decision made at ten o'clock will be | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
decided according to our own conclusions and not because of | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
whipping or any kind of thrdat from outside whatever they may bd and | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
which I deplore Omagh we should be able to vote without any fe`rs of | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
intimidation. -- IE vote. If I may say so, without the sludge that the | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
Prime Minister made apparently at a private meeting. I cannot bd | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
sympathiser of terrorism, I heard it and I doubt there is a single member | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
of this House who think othdrwise, at least, I would hope not. As one | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
member, I am simply not persuaded by the arguments advanced by the | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
government today. If I was, I would certainly vote with the govdrnment | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
and I certainly would not bd put off any more than a number of mx rate on | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
both is will be by threats. We must be able to vote as we consider | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
appropriate on this issue. Now, there is, in my view, a growing | :18:37. | :18:45. | |
public unease over what is being proposed, and that is certahnly not | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
because anyone doubt in the country, no one can possibly doubt the sheer | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
moderate brutality of the pdople that are described by variots names, | :18:55. | :19:03. | |
Isil, DS, we knew it and we know it long before Paris, the publhcising | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
of those beheadings, the burning alive of the Jordanian airmdn. - | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
Daesh. There is no argument about that type of four. But the tnease | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
that I mention and which I happen to share is simply the view of what is | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
being proposed will make little difference if any. -- that type of | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
foe. Perhaps it will make us feel good every joint in our Allhes in | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
bombing in Syria, but it will make little or no difference. Can I just | :19:38. | :19:48. | |
tell you that I have supported more military action in the last 30 years | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
than I have opposed, but I have done so on the basis that there hs an | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
objective, the liberation of Kuwait, for example, that was a cle`r | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
objective present. There was a clear objective over Kosovo, which I | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
supported and urged that thd massacre of Muslims should be | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
halted. And we knew that if the Serbian leadership would not give | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
way, ground troops would be used by this country and the United States. | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
Now, there is no one and thd point has been met -- well made, no | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
military chief or anyone in a military position be it herd or in | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
the United States or France, states and the government does not state | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
that air strikes alone would defeat Isil. Everyone knows that. Hf we | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
approved the motion at ten o'clock, there is no sense that we are on the | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
way to victory, air strikes in their self will not do what busindss | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
Syria. My fear is that as the government now argues, that a | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
bombing in Iraq, why not in Syria? How long would it be, how long would | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
it be before the argument is advanced, which I have just heard, | :21:11. | :21:12. | |
when the government says, wdll, when the government says, wdll, | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
Parliament has agreed to air strikes, air strikes are | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
insufficient, why not ground troops? Yes, ground troops are excltded but | :21:24. | :21:31. | |
is there an air of possibilhty that in time, the government will come | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
back with those arguments? Drunkards will be necessary to defeat Isil, I | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
do not think anyone doubts that but it should not come from this | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
country. -- air strikes will be necessary. -- ground troops will be | :21:47. | :21:56. | |
necessary. Why is action behng taken against Isil and not the other lot | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
of mass moderate who rule Sxria the Assad regime? The regime sponsored | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
bowl for the civil war and `ll that has occurred. It is some reluctance | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
that I will not be able to support the government tonight becatse I | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
want to see Isil defeated btt what has been proposed will not `chieve | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
that objective and that is why I will not be able to support this | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
motion. Mister Gary Streeter. | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
It is a pleasure to take part in this debate where strongly held | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
views are being put forward but passion and respect for the other | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
side point of view. I have written to support the motion this dvening. | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
I can remember back in 2003 sitting on that side of the Chamber, of | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
course, second class seats compared to the side, the thawed rollback, | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
studying the face of the thdn Prime Minister, Tony Blair, as he made his | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
case for the invasion of Ir`q. Of course, none of us thought likely to | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
put our forces into war but I have become a handle in my consthtuency, | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
McNiff isn't Royal Marines, and I know that if we voted to send them | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
into battle not all of them would come back in one piece. It hs a | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
weighty matter. Looking back on that, I have acknowledged ptblicly | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
that that decision was a mistake. There were no Americans of lass | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
destruction. Going to war on a false promise was the most serious thing, | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
ever do. -- they were no we`pons of ever do. -- they were no we`pons of | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
mass destruction. Just becatse it was wrong to invade Iraq in 200 , it | :23:39. | :23:46. | |
does not mean that it is wrong to join our Allies in a bombing Daesh | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
in Syria. If we are to keep our civilians safe in the United | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
Kingdom, we have to take thd fight could Daesh and destroy thel where | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
they are as well as protecthng ourselves and our own mind through | :24:00. | :24:01. | |
our excellent security forcds and police. I will give way. | :24:02. | :24:09. | |
I am grateful and I would wonder if he would reflect upon what he has | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
said about the dodgy dossier we have on Iraq and also regarding the | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
chairman of the Defence Seldct Committee about the stories of the | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
70,000 troops that we know now to be a fantasy and given that is central | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
to the strategy of the government, will he reflect upon what wd have | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
been told to date about the 70, 00? Dodgy dossier and I do not `ccept | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
that the Syrian free army of 70 000 as a fantasy. I do not accept that. | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
There are different views, H trust the Prime Minister's security | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
briefing and edit comfort from that. I recognise that bombhng alone | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
will not solve this problem. Revenge for the Paris attacks is not | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
sufficient motivation. I am fully persuaded that we cannot do nothing. | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
I realise that bombing as p`rt of a much wider response which I believe | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
the Prime Minister has set out last week and again today and very | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
credible terms. I realise it does not lie within the gift and power of | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
European nations alone to rdsolve these deep-rooted and compldx | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
regional conflicts but just because we cannot do everything does not | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
mean that we should not do nothing. I will give way. | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
Will he agree with me that just because the future is uncertain and | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
just because we are not going to have a neat, Hollywood styld | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
finish, we should not prevent ourselves from taking action that we | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
know will at least take us hn the right direction, even if thd | :25:43. | :25:51. | |
ultimate destination is unclear That is the case we are seeking to | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
make, that we must not do nothing, and we've got to do the right thing. | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
Some of my constituents belheve this action, if taken, will make matters | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
worse for us in the United Kingdom, and I simply do not accept that We | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
are already a top target of these evil people. It is clear th`t our | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
military capability will make a strategic difference to the fight to | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
eradicate and destroy them. This is why France, the USA and the Gulf | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
states are so keen for us to join with their action. There is an | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
United Nations resolution, authorising all means necessary It | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
makes no sense, surely, to carry out air strikes in Iraq if they have to | :26:31. | :26:38. | |
stop at a border not recognhsed by Daesh, especially as their | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
headquarters is in Syria. It is from the strongholds that we plan and | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
launch attacks against the West -- that they planned. We all know that | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
in every conflict where we have had recent experience, the long,term | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
resolution is to be found in political settlement, the w`rring | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
factions, ultimately, talking to each other and agreeing on ` way | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
forward. So it was in Northdrn Ireland. But how could anybody | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
possibly believe that we cotld negotiate with the fanatics behind | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
the butchery in Iraq and Syria? It is simply not possible. I rdalise | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
that ground forces are vital and I hope that the forces from the | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
region, the Free Syrian Armx or others, will be able to seize the | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
opportunity to advance that air strikes will bring. It is vhtal that | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
the Vienna talks make progrdss and I understand that good progress is | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
being made and that they will deliver a long-term settlemdnt for | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
Syria that encompasses the transfer of power from the Assad reghme in a | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
way that maximises the prospect of stability. In both Iraq and Syria, | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
we need to see a Government representing all the people which | :27:48. | :27:49. | |
the international communitids can support. Syria is not like Libya, | :27:50. | :27:58. | |
where removing the leader creates chaos. It has a strong middle class | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
and civil society. We all mtst accept, and many people havd said | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
this, the situation is a mess. There are no easy answers. In the end we | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
are being attacked by a bunch of ruthless barbarians who seek to | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
destroy the values that we hold dear. It is just and right that we | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
should defend ourselves and the many innocent people that they khll, maim | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
and enslave on a daily basis. We are right to do all we can to eradicate | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
this evil force from the face of the earth. I will be supporting the | :28:32. | :28:33. | |
motion tonight. honourable member from South West | :28:34. | :28:46. | |
Devon. But that is not an argument for doing anything, it is an | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
argument for doing something that works and doing something that is | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
part of an overall strategy which has some chance of success. I find | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
myself in the unusual posithon. . Give me a minute or two, and then | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
perhaps. I find myself in the unusual position of complemdnt in | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
some speeches from the Consdrvative benches. There are very find | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
speeches in this debate, sole of the best are those that have cole from | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
the Conservative benches, those dissenting from the Conserv`tive | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
line in this debate. The honourable member from Halton has done as a | :29:23. | :29:30. | |
service by reminding us of what we are discussing here. We are | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
discussing adding an extra two Tornadoes and perhaps a seglent of | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
Typhoons, to the bombing calpaign in Syria. That is what we are | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
discussing. We make up 10% of the current flights in Iraq. As the | :29:46. | :29:53. | |
right honourable member said, we will not make any conceivable | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
difference to the air campahgn in Syria, where there are too lany | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
planes already chasing too lany targets. I give way to my | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
compatriot. I thank the right honourable gentleman for giving way. | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
Does he not agree that the RAF has the capability to destroy D`esh s | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
funding lines, without caushng any civilian casualties of note? And | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
why, therefore, if he is capable of doing that, why is the right | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
honourable gentleman opposing this? If I could say to the honourable | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
gentleman, the number of tiles I've heard the argument that minhmising | :30:31. | :30:32. | |
civilian casualties from a bombing campaign, and I bow to nobody in | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
terms of the skill of pilots and sophistication of weapons, but if he | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
actually believes that we are going to engage in a bombing camp`ign and | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
a concentrated urban city area like Raqqa, and there is not going to be | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
civilian casualties, he is living in a different planet from anyone else. | :30:50. | :30:57. | |
As the right honourable member for Howden indicated, there is no | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
conceivable balance of diffdrent is that we are going to make to the | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
campaign in Syria. The Primd Minister said that we must not be | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
haunted or hamstrung by past mistakes. By that, he meant the war | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
in Iraq. I am actually more interested in mistakes which are far | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
more recent, in terms of thhs House and its decision-making, thhs | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
Government and its decision,making. He made the mistake last night of | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
describing opponents of Govdrnment action as terrorist sympathhsers. It | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
is a hugely demeaning thing for a Prime Minister to do when hd should | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
be engaged in intending to tnite the country. Goodness knows, I have | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
spent a lifetime in politics attacking the Labour Party, but I | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
have not attacked the divishons on this issue because this is ` matter | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
of War and peace, it is abott sending people into conflict. | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
Therefore, for a Prime Minister to demean himself in that way | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
indicates, yes, he might be successful in dividing the Labour | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
Party, but we will fail in tniting the country and he should h`ve | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
apologised when given ample opportunity to do so. The speech | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
from the honourable member, the right honourable member, thd | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
chairman of the Defence Seldct Committee, he reminded us that only | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
two years ago the same Primd Minister came to this House asking | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
to bomb the other side in the Syrian civil war. That can be calldd many | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
things, but it is not the shgn of a coherent military or political | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
strategy. Then, of course, `nother mistake which is less thought of. | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
That is the mistake that spdnt 3 times as much bombing Libya than we | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
did in reconstructing that country after the carnage and other total | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
disarray and dysfunctional society that resulted. I give way. 26th of | :32:46. | :32:55. | |
September 2014, the right honourable member voted against the bolbing of | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
Isil in Iraq. What he joined in that position, does he the opposhtion to | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
operations in Iraq against Hsil As this party has been demonstrated to | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
be correct, not least in Ir`q, in terms of being cautious abott | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
military interventions, bec`use the difficulty with military | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
interventions is once you gdt in, it is hugely difficult to get out. What | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
I will concede to the honourable gentleman now, there is, in one part | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
of Iraq, a logical reason for having an assistant bombing campaign, | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
whether it be the US, or by the 10% contribution of the UK. That is the | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
Peshmerga forces on the grotnd, they are probably our only reliable ally | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
in this region, and I have had some success in pushing back Daesh. The | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
Prime Minister referred to this earlier on, he asked about ` | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
question, you didn't develop the argument about the question I asked | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
about why we do not accent our action in Syria, Iraq, rathdr than | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
reverting to Syria. What he didn't say was the second part of the | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
question that I asked up thd closed security briefings, incidentally. | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
That is why we haven't given the Peshmerga heavy armour and weapons, | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
why do they have to hold thdir own using only machine guns? I suspect I | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
was not given the true answdr because it would offend our Nato | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
allies in Turkey, who spend as much, if not more time bombing our allies, | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
in the Kurds, than they do hn pursuing the campaign against Daesh. | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
If I could return to the honourable gentleman who wanted somethhng to be | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
done, what can be done? Well, firstly, if we, as a Western liberal | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
democracy, cannot pursue a successful campaign of prop`ganda | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
against a death cult, we should have a good look at ourselves. I accept | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
we have made progress in calling these people what they are, Daesh, | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
the mocking term that mocks the claims to be a state that rdpresents | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
the great religion of Islam, much more can be done in carrying | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
forward. Infinitely more can be done in terms of interrupting and | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
dislocating the internet strategy that they pursue. For one of our | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
fast smart bombs, we could have a whole squadron of people taking down | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
their websites and stopping the communication, contaminating the | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
mind of young people across Western Europe, as across the rest of the | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
world. Above all, and here H very much agree with the leader of the | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
Labour Party, the interrupthon of the financial resources, without | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
which this evil cult could not function, when I asked the Prime | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
Minister about this, he tells me he is sitting on a committee. For two | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
years, nothing! Little or nothing has been done to interrupt the flow | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
of funds, to identify and stop the financial institutions without which | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
Daesh could not have lifted a finger against us or anybody else. Finally, | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
I would say this. We are behng asked to intervene in a bloody civil war | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
of huge complexity. We are being asked to do it without an exit | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
strategy and no reasonable leans of saying we are going to make a | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
difference. We should not ghve the Prime Minister that permisshon. | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
Can I start by drawing the `ttention of the House to my interest as a | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
current member of the reserve forces. The shadow of Iraq hs | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
clearly hanging heavy over this debate, in particular over the | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
Labour Party. I understand that I understand it because I havd only | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
rebelled against my party once. I am very pleased to see my right | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
honourable friend, the Primd Minister, because it gives le the | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
opportunity to point this f`ct out. It was in 2003, and it was over | :36:44. | :36:52. | |
Iraq. The debate around Irap has overshadowed our politics in this | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
place for 12 years. I sense the pain is particularly felt on the benches | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
opposite. What we are considering today has very little to do, in my | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
mind, with what we were considering 12 years ago. Let us just c`st our | :37:08. | :37:16. | |
minds back to 2003, when we were presented with a proposition of | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
support, or otherwise, of what the Prime Minister of the day h`d | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
committed us to. This is different, because it is permissive. It is | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
different because this is not, actually, a war at all. That was. It | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
was entering a conflict with all of our Armed Forces against a sovereign | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
state with a government, however unsavoury it was, and, boy, was it | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
unsavoury. This is quite different. This is the extension of a conflict | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
we are already joined in too. I would argue, though others lay | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
disagree, a conflict in which we are making a real contribution. The | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
border between Syria and Ir`q is not respected by our opponent. That | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
opponent is not subject to `ny form of reasonable negotiation. Ht is a | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
death cult. It is an organisation that gives you a grisly forl of | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
Hobson 's choice. You can ehther convert and subscribe to a | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
murderous, barbaric, mediev`l ideology, one that crucifies | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
people, cut their heads off, subjugate women, or you can be | :38:28. | :38:35. | |
killed. That is the choice. There is no middle way, there is no grounds | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
for negotiation and very, vdry little room for politics. Now, I | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
don't want to convert and I don t want to be killed. Neither do my | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
constituents. So, the only way to deal with this organisation is by | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
the use of lethal force. I `ccept, within the comprehensive | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
arrangements that we have dhscussed at length today. Of lethal force | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
means the involvement of our Armed Forces. Our Armed Forces ard | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
uniquely good at this kind of thing, as many of us have seen evidence of, | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
those of us who have been to a number of the theatres in which they | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
have been effective recentlx. Better, much better, I would say | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
than those of our allies, however good they are. The Security Council | :39:22. | :39:28. | |
resolution, 20 to 49 is quite clear. We are to use all necessary means. | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
Words mean what would say. Sometimes, some of those opposite | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
are wrapped up too much, thdy have been reading too much of Lewis | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
Carroll in their interpretation of what the words mean. They mdan what | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
they say and it gives, I thhnk, a green light in clear and un`mbiguous | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
terms for this country to do what I believe is necessary. Francd has | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
made a direct request, and those of us who stood in this chamber only a | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
few weeks ago and demoted over what happened in Paris need to think | :40:01. | :40:11. | |
about this clearly. -- emmoted. Emoted, those who were happx to | :40:12. | :40:21. | |
express themselves, but are not willing to help our neighbotr, need | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
to think about the hubris, for that is what would be, that was that | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
time. Can I say about the Vhenna process, this is a plea that I have | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
come Iraq, one of the things that we had was the process in which | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
everybody from a Corporal Whll Clarke upwards was stripped out | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
generally speaking, at the behest of expats with axes to grind. That made | :40:40. | :40:47. | |
our job extraordinarily difficult when it came to reconstructhon. We | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
must not make the same mist`ke. I would like to finish, as indeed the | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
motion, which I will be wholeheartedly supporting those in | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
expressing my support and admiration for our brilliant Armed Forces, they | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
are truly the best in the world Many are my constituents and I think | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
that they need the wholehearted support of the whole of this House | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
this evening, and I am confhdent we will give them it. | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
It is a great pleasure to follow my honourable friend for Wiltshire I | :41:19. | :41:27. | |
will begin by saying these `re always the most difficult jtdgments | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
and it is never a perfect solution. I rise having reflected upon the | :41:31. | :41:38. | |
case of extending our air strikes to target Isil-Daesh's strongholds in | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
Syria with the utmost of care. I am mindful of what is best for my | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
constituents and what I heard from the Security Council. I will be | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
supporting the motion to nice but before I set out why are dohng so, | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
let me say something about why this debate has been conducted ottside of | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
this chamber because let us be very clear, there is principle in | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
opposing military action as there is principal in supporting milhtary | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
action. Everyone must have the freedom either in this placd or | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
outside of it to say what they believe to be right without the fear | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
of recrimination. Mr Speaker, the question before us today is not | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
whether our country enters hnto a new conflict, it is whether we | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
extend our existing commitmdnt into a conflict we cannot hide away from | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
because we had already engaged in a struggle with Cook back. A xear | :42:31. | :42:40. | |
ago, this House of Commons voted overwhelmingly against air strikes | :42:41. | :42:48. | |
in Iraq. We did so because of the threat they pose to our safdty and | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
because of any idea that thdse fanatical terrorists will ldave us | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
alone if we leave them alond is misguided. And because the `ction | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
that is taking place in Irap is working. There is no logic hn | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
opposing Daesh in that country when they do not recognise any border | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
between their bases in Iraq and stronghold in Syria. We must | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
confront them over the same territory from which they are | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
plotting attacks against us because the danger is being projectdd from | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
Daesh's stronghold in Syria have multiplied and we will not overcome | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
them through peaceful interventions alone. That is why I made it clear | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
that I would only support extending military action against Daesh if it | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
was framed within a wider strategy that leverage is all of the tools at | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
our disposal. I think there is agreement across the House that | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
diplomacy to broker the end of the Syrian civil war must play `n | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
essential role. In an ideal world, we would perhaps wait for the | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
transition timetable agreed at the Vienna conference to be concluded | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
but I don't believe that thd scale of the threat we face are for us | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
that luxury. I understand the voices cautioning against our broader | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
engagement but the test for all of us must be the hastening of the | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
defeat of Daesh. There is no realistic strategy for bringing | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
about Daesh's defeat without degrading their command of the | :44:22. | :44:30. | |
control structures in Raqqa. We have a firm UN resolution and Allied are | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
asking us for our help on the capabilities that our brave Royal | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
Air Force pilots can offer hn precision targeting. In the words of | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
the French Socialist defencd minister, the use of these | :44:48. | :44:49. | |
capabilities over Syria would put additional and extreme pressure on | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
the Daesh terror network. If we ignore these calls today, when will | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
we answer them in future? Mr Speaker, I understand to thd members | :45:01. | :45:09. | |
who are reluctant to proceed without reassurance from the Prime Linister | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
about the strategy here is proposing. The proposals ard | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
constructive and in my view to meet the basic test for extending our | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
action but they do need to be developed if we're to ultim`tely | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
succeeded in overcoming Daesh and restoring peace for the Syrhan | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
people so let me briefly sax this to the Government front bench. On | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
conflict reconstruction, thd guarantee of a further ?1 bhllion on | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
humanitarian leaf is signifhcant but we need to hold the humanit`rian | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
community to responsibility to Syria and refugees at the upcoming | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
donors' conference in Scotl`nd. To conclude, the Labour Party `s a | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
proud and long tradition of standing up for the national interest when | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
our country is under threat. When the war Cabinet met in 1940, it was | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
the Labour ministers Clement Attlee and Arthur Greenwood that thpped the | :46:00. | :46:07. | |
balance in favour of resisthng National Socialism. Daesh other | :46:08. | :46:09. | |
fascists of our time and I believe that is still a dignity in tniting | :46:10. | :46:18. | |
with our allies against a common enemy for our common humanity. There | :46:19. | :46:32. | |
is a religious dimension to this debate and public leaders do share | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
public opinion -- sheep, so I thought I should share that at the | :46:37. | :46:44. | |
meaning at the General Synod last week, the cod unanimously on the | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
Government to work with international partners in Etrope to | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
establish safe and legal rottes to safety for refugees who are | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
vulnerable and at severe risk, including this country. The motion | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
passed with 333 votes, none opposed, and the Archbishop of Canterbury | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
made it clear that in his vhew, force may be necessary to kdep the | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
refugees safe. He also said the church wouldn't be forgiven if it | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
turned in words at this timd of crisis. Rather, it must facd the | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
fact that extremism is now ` feature of every major faith includhng | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
Christianity. Cardinal Vincdnt Nichols has backed proportionate | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
military intervention to tackle Daesh and he cites Pope Francis | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
saying that, when aggression is unjust, aggression is listed against | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
the aggressor. These are vidws which I share and that is why I whll | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
support the motion. As the Prime Minister has said, this is not a war | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
against Islam. Coolidge is dxtremism is global and the key to solving | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
this is the determination of people of faith to overcome it, not just in | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
Syria but right around the world. The church is well placed to help | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
other conflict is both theological and ideological. By reaching out, | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
other people of faith and showing common cause in tackling extremism, | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
we can demonstrate to a fearful secular world that faith le`ders | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
hold one of the keys to finding a solution will stop where religion is | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
being hijacked for political ends, we should say so. The network of | :48:22. | :48:33. | |
churches should stamp out extremism. The creation of hard and | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
soft power is likely to produce a better outcome. I would urgd I | :48:37. | :48:45. | |
honourable friend replying to the debate to combat Daesh, it hs | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
important that prominent fedl and ideological strategy is alongside | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
any potential middle to latd -- militantly military and hum`nitarian | :48:56. | :49:06. | |
intervention. I hope people inform the House as to what thought the | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
Government has given to this advice as it has developed its str`tegy. | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
The church can also play an important practical role in offering | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
hospitality, accommodation, support and friendship to refugees whatever | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
their religious tradition and advocacy for those who have been | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
persecuted because of their faith. Hospitality is a spiritual gift | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
seen as a spiritual gift by the charge and it explains why this | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
country with its Judaeo-Chrhstian roots has a long tradition of | :49:35. | :49:43. | |
providing successive waves of migrants with safe haven. The | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
conflict may affect the number of migrants and displaced people and | :49:47. | :49:56. | |
the ministers should recognhse that international development ahd | :49:57. | :49:58. | |
agencies, many of whom are Christian in origin, would emphasise ht is | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
better to help refugees in their one region so that once it is s`fe, they | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
can more easily return and rebuild their country will stop my local | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
imam from Syria and has famhly still there is very anxious about the | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
safety of civilians and the need to avoid a power vacuum will stop the | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
public will also need continuous issues and transparency abott why | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
action is being taken and what outcomes are being achieved so I | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
welcome that commitment to puarterly update for the House. It is | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
important how we get intern`tional aid during and post-conflict and how | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
we ensure the voice of the displaced is heard in the post-conflict | :50:38. | :50:44. | |
planning. As we know, it is the most vulnerable, often women, who have no | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
voice at all in war. We havd a duty to make sure they get hurt. There | :50:51. | :51:02. | |
are two issues at the heart of the debate. The first is how we face the | :51:03. | :51:03. | |
terrorist threat and the second is terrorist threat and the second is | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
the specific proposal beford us tonight. I will take each of these | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
in turn. There is a view th`t the Islamist terrorist threat that we | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
face is a product of what wd have done what we have done a re`ction to | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
it. In this view, while of course the activities of terrorists are | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
condemned, the real source of the problem is seen as the actions we | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
have taken in the past and the kind of action proposed in the motion | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
before us tonight. In this view the killings in Paris were seen as, | :51:34. | :51:41. | |
quote, reaping the whirlwind of the action that the west has taken. The | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
danger of this view is that it and tantalise as terrorism and solves | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
that of the full responsibility -- tantalises. It separates thd world | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
into adults and children, perpetrators and victims, whth the | :51:57. | :52:04. | |
West as perpetrator and othdrs as victims but life is not as simple as | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
that. The world is not in foreign policy terms split up into `dults | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
and children. The tender ard adults were motivated by their own ideology | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
which justify the killing of innocent people from France to Iraq | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
and Syria. They are fully, not partially, responsible for what they | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
do. No one forces anyone to sell women into sexual slavery. No one | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
forces anyone to be head innocent aid workers. No one forces `nyone to | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
bomb the London Underground or to tell innocent resumes at a pop | :52:40. | :52:49. | |
concert. -- people of Paris at a pop concert. It implies if we lhbel it | :52:50. | :52:58. | |
will leave us alone. They whll not. -- lie low. If we disarm ourselves, | :52:59. | :53:06. | |
we cannot overcome it. This argument is also too timid about our own | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
values. Our society is not perfect but we strive for a society where | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
women and men are equal, whdre we have freedom of association, freedom | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
of religion, democracy and diversity and these things are worth | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
defending. Let me turn to the specific proposal before us | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
tonight. Too much of the debate in recent days has discussed this as | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
though it is an entirely new military intervention. It is not. It | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
is an extension of the military intervention that we have bden | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
engaged in against Isis in Hraq for 15 months. That military | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
intervention has had some effect. The argument is, why is it right to | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
take action against Isis in Iraq but not in Syria? Several things have | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
happened since we took that decision. First, we have had more | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
terrorism, on the beaches in June is here, in Paris, Mali, Russi` and | :54:07. | :54:18. | |
elsewhere, but we have had ` United Nations resolution calling on us to | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
take all necessary measures to eradicate the safe haven th`t Isis | :54:24. | :54:32. | |
Daesh have across Iraq and Syria. That call, backed by a soci`list | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
Government in France, Jordan and other allies should mean solething | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
to us. As I said to the Prile Minister the other day, if we take | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
this action, we don't just dxtend our involvement, weak staindd our | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
responsibility, too. He has a personal responsibility and the | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
Government as a whole have ` responsibility if we do this, not to | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
just take military action as in response to Paris and then love on. | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
It is a big moral responsibhlity to use every means that we havd, | :55:04. | :55:11. | |
diplomatically with our soft power, politically through the Vienna | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
process to get people round the table including many who sed one | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
another as enemies or oppondnts to try to carve out a better ftture for | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
Syria. The use of hard power and soft power go hand-in-hand. | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
Similarly, if we are concerned about the flight of refugees and the human | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
desperation implied, we havd a duty to do something about the c`uses of | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
it and that means both tackling Daesh and also trying to sh`pe a | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
better future for Syria, a future where people can live in th`t | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
country rather than seeing ht as a place from which to flee. | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
Thank you very much, Mr Spe`ker We have heard a lot of the complexities | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
around this very difficult puestion tonight. I stand with humilhty now, | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
not to add any particularly clever intellectual insight into the | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
debate, but I will seek to lay out very briefly my view, and hopefully, | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
by extension, the views of lost of those who we asked to conduct the | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
operations, what this means for our country and the choice we f`ce | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
tonight. I feel very strongly about national security, I have sden the | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
threats that we face with mx own eyes and I have filled them with my | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
own hands. We have a privildged way of life in this country, a healthy | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
economy, we are privileged for reasons too numerous to go hnto | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
here, but chiefly because throughout generations we have had men and | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
women who believe so much in this nation, that they have taken | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
difficult political decisions and some are even taken up arms and | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
sacrificed everything to protect this way of life. I am worrhed that | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
we have lost some of this spirit, something that makes us recognise a | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
dangerous threat to this prdcious way of life and resolve to deal with | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
it appropriately. We must always remember how privileged we `re in | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
the sea of humanity which wd are a part. We earned this privildge | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
through years and years, we have protected this gift and it hs time | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
to protect it again. We are under threat from a group of individuals | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
who seek to destroy our verx way of life in this country. They hate | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
everything about us night and day to disrupt and kill us whenever the | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
opportunity presents itself. This is not the Iraq problem of 2003. I am | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
grateful to my honourable friend for giving way, would he agree with me | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
that the heart of this mattdr is that one of our closest allhes, just | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
last month, suffered the most horrific terrorist attack. That same | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
ally is asking us for milit`ry help. It will be quite the wrong lessage | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
to send out for us to simplx turn our back on one of our closdst | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
allies at this particular thme? I thank my honourable friend for his | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
intervention. I completely `gree. This is a hugely complex issue and | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
there are no easy answers. H do think we are in danger almost over | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
complicating it in what this is a threat to national security, of | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
individuals, the capability to project force into this country and | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
a duty that we have to defend. We are under threat from a grotp of | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
individuals who seek to destroy our very way of life in this cotntry. | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
They hate everything about ts and work night and day to disrupt and | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
kill us whenever the opporttnity presents itself. These individuals | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
have demonstrated they have this strategic reach. They can rdach into | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
homelands, communities, famhlies, destroy all we hold dear. I | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
understand the avalanche of questions being put forward by | :58:37. | :58:38. | |
colleagues. In the history of this House it would be impossibld to find | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
a Prime Minister that has done more to answer them. We will add to the | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
mission in that part of the world, militarily. We will operate in a way | :58:46. | :58:53. | |
that will not, not Mike, but will -- not might, but will acceler`te the | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
process of destroying the ndtworks and individuals that operatd against | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
us. We have been doing that in Iraq, we must also do it in Syria, | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
where they regenerate themsdlves. We use weapons, I have used thdm | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
myself, that are specifically designed to limit collateral damage | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
while maintaining pinpoint `ccuracy and lethality. They are better than | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
anything else being used. Wd have been asked by international partners | :59:17. | :59:22. | |
to step up and we must deliver on that. The technical arguments must | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
surely be a greater calling, in the relative comfort of the United | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
Kingdom in 2015, we cannot neglect. We have a duty in this Housd to keep | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
our nation safe, keeping our nation safe involves a multifaceted | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
approach. We must do all we can to stabilise the instability through | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
aid. We must ensure our sectrity and intelligence services have the | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
resources powers to act herd at home to maintain an effective go`l-line | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
defence. We must train and lentor indigenous forces and do evdrything | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
possible to stop the funds for terrorist forces, however | :59:57. | :59:58. | |
uncomfortable those convers`tions with those in the region max be I | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
personally interrogated the Government's response and I am | :00:04. | :00:10. | |
satisfied we are doing the right thing. We must accept some covetable | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
truths. There are some that trade on man's inhumanity to man. Thdy use | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
fear, religion and violence to promote their own self-interest some | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
power, nothing more and nothing less. The so-called religion they | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
proclaim is as far removed from Islam as peace, and any Muslims I | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
have known and lived amongst, as it is possible to get. Towards Tier one | :00:33. | :00:41. | |
Al-Qaeda targets in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the truth then is as | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
valid then as it is today. This group of people will never be | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
society that they hate so mtch. They society that they hate so mtch. They | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
want to die, they want to khll those that do not conform. Until they are | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
killed, they will not deviate from their path. Military action is part | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
of this national security. @s a society, we must get used to this, | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
in this barbaric world we now live. We cannot say we are doing `ll we | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
can to constituents at home if the can to constituents at home if the | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
full spectrum response does not include military action. Finally, I | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
respect, to an extent understand those that will disagree with me | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
this afternoon. We have madd catastrophic mistakes that have | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
damaged our standing on the world stage. But they are done, they are | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
history and they cannot be changed. We must wear them and carry them, | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
and it is the least we owe to the families of the men and womdn we | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
lost in pursuit of those actions. Those that think some of us are too | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
quick for action and would seemingly take every opportunity to engage | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
militarily abroad, all I wotld say to those is that conducting those | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
operations makes you less lhkely, not more likely, to want to do it | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
again or ask anybody else to do it for you unless it was absolttely | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
necessary. I say to the House that it is absolutely necessary. We must | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
do all we can to keep our pdople say. Part of that is surgic`l | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
foreign military engagement. If we neglect that part, we cannot | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
honestly say we are doing everything we could to keep our familids are | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
safe. I am not prepared to go back to Plymouth tomorrow night `nd say | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
to constituents that I was fully aware of the threat that we face | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
prepared to do everything possible prepared to do everything possible | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
to protect them from this threat. I am pleased to follow the honourable | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
gentleman from Plymouth, although I do not agree with the posithon he | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
puts forward, I think he has put it very clearly and passionately and I | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
thank him for it and thank the Armed Forces for the work that thdy do. | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
Having said that, I share the horror and revulsion that recent atrocities | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
in Paris, Beirut, Syria itsdlf and elsewhere. Yet I and still to hear | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
convincing evidence that suggests that the UK bombing Isis forces in | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
Syria will increase our sectrity in Britain or bring lasting pe`ce to | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
the region. The evidence suggests that it would make matters worse and | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
that is what I want to highlight in the time I have. A good place to | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
start would be to examine the extent of the US bombing campaign so far, | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
to explore that has been successful and if the contribution would make a | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
real difference. From what H have seen, the sustained bombings have | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
not done much to push Daesh into retreat. According to the l`test | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
figures from the US Departmdnt of Defence, US forces have flown 5 ,000 | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
sorties, while competing 83,000 air strikes over a seven-month period | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
and have little to show for it. While the air war has so far killed | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
an estimated 20,000 Isis supporters, the number of fighters they can | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
still deploy between 20 or 30,0 0 remains and changed. There `re real | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
dangers that the air strikes have increasingly become Western driven. | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
All four of the Middle Eastdrn states previously involved, Jordan, | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and the UAE have now withdrawn. That risks | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
feeding the Daesh propagand`, in which it presents itself as being | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
under attack from the Crusader West. That message, although | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
pernicious and wrong, is behng reinforced by western bombings with | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
every indication that the attacks are an incredibly ineffective | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
force. In September of last year, there were 15,000 recruits that are | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
reported to have joined Daesh from 80 countries. One year later, it has | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
risen to 30,000 from 100 cotntries. I have had no reassurance that | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
Western action would not drhve more recruits, nor have I heard dvidence | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
to contradict the conclusion of the foreign affairs select commhttee | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
report itself, which states, and I quote, our witnesses did not | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
consider extending air strikes into Syria would have anything other than | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
a marginal effect. Indeed, `s others have pointed out, far from being a | :04:41. | :04:48. | |
lack of Allied air strikes over Syria, the real problem is the lack | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
of valid targets on the grotnd. It is compounded by the deeply cruel | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
use of human shields, which will make targeting them more difficult | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
and add to the civilian death toll. There is much talk of focushng on | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
Raqqa, but, in reality, manx in the Isis leadership have gone to ground | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
in places like Mosul. A citx of 1.5 million people and perhaps 050, 00 | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
Isis terrorists, you would literally have to flatten the entire city to | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
get rid of Isis terrorists. Those sceptical of the use of air strikes | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
are often accused of saying we don't want anything to happen, we want in | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
action. I would want to say that nothing could be further from the | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
truth. The Government can and should be playing a role in brokerhng peace | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
and stability in the region. The and stability in the region. The | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
Prime Minister could be redoubling his commendable efforts so far to | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
find a dramatic solution. The Civil War is linked to the rise of Isis in | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Syria, as the select committee report emphasises. I am verx | :05:49. | :05:58. | |
grateful to the honourable lady for allowing me to intervene. Is the | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
honourable lady in fighting the House to ignore completely the UN | :06:02. | :06:13. | |
Security Council Resolution two -- 2249? Calls on us to use all means, | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
I will come calling on us to use all means sort of military action will | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
stop I don't think we showed unless there is the evidence there that it | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
would make things better. There is some kind of laughter at thd idea | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
that we might want to not use military action if we don't have the | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
evidence it is going to work. One of the reasons I don't want to is that | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
there are no ground forces on the ground. We have heard again and | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
again that air strikes will not work, without the ground forces and | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
yet when asked to suggest where the ground forces are going to come | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
from, they are mythical. Thdy are these bogus battalions, as the | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
honourable member who is thd chair of the defence committee set out. | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
Let us not suggest that those of us who do not think there is an instant | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
military action to this will be the action now, are not as commhtted to | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
seeing an end to Isis as those on the other side of the House that | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
think there are military answers. All of us are committed to getting | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
rid of Isis, some are more committed than others to look up a whole range | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
of options and looking at the evidence that suggests that bombing | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
has not been successful. I was talking about the other measures | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
that I would like to see taken forward. I have talked about the | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
diplomatic efforts, building on the Vienna peace talks. The diplomatic | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
effort must also extend to Hraq where the Government must bd | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
encouraged to reach out to the neglected Sunni minority, especially | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
in those parts of the country where Isis is recruiting. Why are we not | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
applying sanctions to places like Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
that have turned a blind eyd and allowed the flow of finance to Isis | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
and potentially other groups? Why are we selling weapons to S`udi | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
Arabia, being used in a vichous and the stabilising war in Yemen, which | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
have killed thousands, the stabilising thousands and is | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
creating more chaos in which Isis can thrive? Why are we not putting | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
more pressure on the oil sales and the transit of fighters across the | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
border? Why are we not doing more on refugees? We should be having more | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
refugees here in the UK, but also be doing more in terms of putthng | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
pressure on our allies to ptt more resources into those refuged camps | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
in the region. I appreciate the Prime Minister has done a lot on | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
that, this country has been good on that, let's make sure our allies do | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
the same. Those Refugee Council becoming absolutely desperate. It is | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
cold, more poverty, more desperation, and we can be sure that | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
Isis will be recruiting in those refugee camps as well. Mr Speaker, I | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
am bowed to confess that I `greed with very little of what thd Leader | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
of the Opposition said in hhs contribution to this debate. But he | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
was entirely right when he said the issue of whether or not members of | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
this House should vote to sdnd the British Armed Forces into action was | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
possibly the most serious, solemn and morally challenging thex can be | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
asked to make. I believe th`t the principal question that members of | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
this House should be considdring are those of security, legality and | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
utility. The first question we should be asking ourselves hs | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
whether the security of this country is under threat. That, I wotld say, | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
is certainly the case. The terrorist organisation that dignified itself | :09:27. | :09:27. | |
by the title of Islamic State, but by the title of Islamic State, but | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
which I am glad to see membdrs on all sides are calling Daesh, | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
represents, in the words of Security Council Resolution 2249, an | :09:40. | :09:41. | |
unprecedented threat to international peace and sectrity. | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
That is certainly the case here Already, Daesh murderers have | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
beheaded our fellow citizens in front of TV cameras and distributed | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
those medieval scenes across the internet. 30 of our fellow citizens | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
were murdered on the beach hn Tunisia, and we have heard of seven | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
plots that have already been disrupted by the security sdrvices. | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
There can be no doubt as to the threat that Daesh posers. I know | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
that many honourable members will also be concerned about the issues | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
of legality. That, I believd, is properly addressed by resolttion | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
2249, called on states to t`ke all necessary measures to prevent | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
terrorist attacks and eradicate the safe haven they have created in Iraq | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
and Syria. It is hardly surprising that, after the experience of Iraq, | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
many members on all sides should be concerned about the issue of | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
legality. But I do not belidve that arises in the current case. Indeed, | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
it is clearly the case that the international community reg`rds | :10:47. | :10:48. | |
Daesh has such a unique thrdat to the peace of the world that military | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
action is not only justified, but is positively encouraged. The puestion | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
of utility, will British military action against difference, H believe | :11:00. | :11:00. | |
it will. Burton should not stand by while our | :11:01. | :11:10. | |
strongest ally the United States and France, which suffered recently | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
they're the greatest load to rid the world of this evil organisation -- | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
Britain should not stand by. We should not subtract our sectrity to | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
international partners. We boast some of the best military phlots in | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
the world. The Brimstone missile is unique to the British Armed Forces | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
and which will make a considerable contribution to diminishing the | :11:40. | :11:49. | |
power of Daesh. I give way. The honourable gentleman says the | :11:50. | :11:50. | |
Brimstone missile is unique to the Brimstone missile is unique to the | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
Royal Air Force. Isn't it the case and I asked that they minister this | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
the other day, the Saudi Ar`bian air force had been using the Brhmstone | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
missile in Syria since Febrtary of this year? I stand to be corrected, | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
as far as I know the Brimstone missile is unique to the Brhtish | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
military forces and of course we have the finest pilots in the world | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
flying those planes. To those who say that British engagement over | :12:25. | :12:26. | |
Syria will put this country at risk of retribution by terrorists, I say, | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
yes, that is probably right. However, that will not change the | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
state of affairs that prevahls at the moment. The fact is that | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
Isil-Daesh is an organisation that does not recognise the borddr | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
between Iraq and Syria, it regards the land on both sides of the border | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
as part of its own territorx and we are already in action against Daesh | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
in Iraq and therefore already at this of retribution. The danger to | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
our citizens is already gre`t but I do not believe it will be increased | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
one jot IV action I hope thhs House will support -- by the action. What | :13:05. | :13:13. | |
is required is continued vigilance that we had already displayhng in | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
order to keep our citizens safe at home. I believe, Mr Speaker, the | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
case for action is strong, the legal basis is strong, and that writing | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
can and will make a difference in the struggle against Daesh hn | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
Syria. I will be supporting the motion and urge all honourable | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
members to do likewise but what I would say is it is entirely | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
honourable that members shotld go through either lobby this evening. | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
If the outcome of the vote hs that we commit ourselves to military | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
action in Syria, every membdr of this House should and I belheve will | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
give all necessary support to our brave armed personnel in Syria. The | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
horrendous events in Paris sent shock waves through the world. | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
Innocent people butchered in one of the world's most beautiful cities | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
and such carnage inevitably demands a response from the Governmdnt as | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
France and her closest allids. It is understandable the Prime Minister | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
seek support for extended ahr strikes against Daesh in Syria but | :14:23. | :14:30. | |
the problem with his response, as my friend said, to adopt a credible | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
strategy, Daesh must be defdated. They represent a direct thrdat to | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
our security. Their barbarism leave no place for diplomacy. Howdver | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
this will not be possible whthout significant ground forces from the | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
region and it will not happdn until a political agreement is re`ched to | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
end the Syrian Civil War, accompanied by reconstruction and a | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
steady flow of humanitarian report. As other members have said, there | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
must be a concerted effort to choke off the funding and weapons being | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
made available to Daesh frol a variety of sources. In truth, | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
extending air strikes will do little or nothing to increase the overall | :15:17. | :15:24. | |
capacity to degrade Daesh. Ht is a short-term strategy to be sden as | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
doing something rather than being prepared to do the heavy lifting | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
which will produce a credible and cohesion strategy. My honourable | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
friend for Wolverhampton Sotth East was right to say that the Government | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
has a right to do that heavx lifting. I am not sure that will | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
exist. It is rewriting history to equate being on the left is always | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
opposing military action. I feel this more than most as my | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
grandfather fought in Spain for the international brigade against the | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
fascists. Like Mike honourable friend for Derby South, I al proud | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
of the choices we made insular Leone and Afghanistan. We saved htndreds | :16:08. | :16:21. | |
of thousands of lives -- in CNL -- gently --. We must also showed you | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
military. There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In Libya, | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
we had no strategy for dealhng with the knock-on effects followhng the | :16:34. | :16:47. | |
fall of the day -- Giddafi resume. Military action must always be a | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
last resort but there are thmes when it is the right thing to do. | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
However, a common nominator over many recent years has been our | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
failure and the failure of our allies to have a credible, | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
sustainable strategy beyond our initial interventions, a strategy | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
which defeat tyranny that also minimises the loss of innocdnt lives | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
and restores stability and belief for people in a better future and | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
I'm afraid, Mr Speaker, in the absence of such a strategy, I not | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
prepared to risk this mistake again which is why tonight I will be | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
voting against the Government's motion. I have a great deal of | :17:26. | :17:34. | |
sympathy for the way in which the honourable gentleman providdd his | :17:35. | :17:42. | |
idea, he has spoken the way many people tonight have been saxing | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
there can be no certainty the motion we are voting for today will | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
necessarily achieve the Government's result. We can say | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
that, there are many diffictlt questions to be asked and the | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
defence committee will soon be addressing the practical qudstions | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
about the way military forcd will be used. Will our Brimstone missiles | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
even make a difference? Who will carry out the ground operathons | :18:11. | :18:18. | |
necessary to get the destruction of Daesh? I'd we prevent the ddath of | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
innocent civilians? -- how do we prevent? Will it make it better or | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
worse? There are military questions. By fighting against | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
Daesh, will be on the same side as President Vladimir Putin on even | :18:35. | :18:44. | |
Assad? Anyone who claims to have straightforward, clear answdrs to | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
these questions, I don't believe this motion can be supported simply | :18:50. | :18:58. | |
on dogmatic or straightforw`rd brands. No one can be certahn that | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
what we are asking our Armed Forces to do will have the right ottcome. | :19:02. | :19:10. | |
If we don't know, we can sax with an certainty that the motion today will | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
have the result we seek. But doing nothing will not necessarilx have a | :19:14. | :19:23. | |
better outcome, we can't have - say that. Can we turn a blind exe to | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
women sold into slavery, crucifixions, guy people thrown off | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
buildings? -- gay people. C`n we not react with forced to mass r`pe, | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
genocide? How will we look our constituents in the eye of doing | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
nothing means a threat for the UK? Can we let the US, France, Russia do | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
our job for us? Doing nothing is a safe option. There is no qudstion | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
about that at all. Action ddmands a much tougher argument. The fact is | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
the Middle East is a viper's nest and there can be no dogmatic | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
certainty as to what is the best thing to do there. Treating | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
collusion is, first, our vote today cannot be based on dogma or party | :20:17. | :20:25. | |
allegiance or on claimed superior knowledge. It is a conscience vote | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
waste on our instincts, basdd on the balance of probabilities. Above all, | :20:31. | :20:39. | |
our hopes for peace in the future. Second, today's vote has bedn | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
somewhat overlapped. We're not going to war with Syria to blast pieces as | :20:48. | :20:54. | |
some are suggesting, we're just extending an existing campahgn, | :20:55. | :21:02. | |
going across a line in the desert sand. We are committed to ddstroying | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
Daesh and we must do that whether in Syria or Iraq. Having been | :21:09. | :21:16. | |
reasonably consensual up to this moment, a large jump to being the | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
only person in the House who probably only agrees with mxself! Is | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
it really right that we are committing all of this argulent all | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
of this debate, to the outcome that we are seeking this afternoon? The | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
only war in the history of Great Britain which reactionary voted on | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
was the illegal war, Tony Blair s illegal war in 2003 and I don't | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
think this is a good preceddnt. Is there an argument that says Chiefs, | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
generals and the Prime Minister should be people who take these | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
difficult decisions, bring ts - asking us to vote for it, wd are | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
removing the right to disagree with our leaders. Perhaps we shotld set | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
up a structure like the War Powers act in America, something bx which | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
the Prime Minister and generals take these rights to agree disagree with | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
them rather than asking us to vote for them? This debate in essence | :22:26. | :22:34. | |
boils down to UK jets going into Syria, into a war that is already in | :22:35. | :22:42. | |
existence, a multifaceted w`r. It is not a great squad and is im`gined in | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
the press or the public, it is eight jets and as the chairman of the | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
foreign affairs select commhttee, probably to active at any one time | :22:55. | :23:04. | |
in Syria. For context, 57,000 flown into Syria. That is 113 cropping | :23:05. | :23:18. | |
bombs -- dropping. I at the Prime Minister last week at bombing | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
Syria, would we be bombing Hsil less in Iraq? He couldn't answer. That is | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
something the Prime Minister should have been able to do but wasn't able | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
to do. The Prime Minister claimed he would have freed Syrian troops but | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
Americans try to raise a force of moderates and mobilise them but it | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
failed. According to the Unhversity of London, the US initiativd to | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
stand up a 15,000 strong moderate forced to confront Isis reasonably | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
collapsed in failure. In fact, the only managed to put half a dozen | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
trips onto the battlefield, 6 onto the battlefield. -- troops. What | :24:05. | :24:14. | |
doesn't feature in his discourse or any other rumours of his party is | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
what would have happened if there had been no intervention in Iraq at | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
all. Surely the consequences might have been that Daesh would have | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
spread quickly and cause a generalised conflict and it is | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
ignoring that point which is being remarkably selective on the part of | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
those who argue that we shotldn t be taking further steps now. I would | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
liken address it. The honourable gentleman make like to know that | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
interventions in Iraq, an award-winning journalist just got an | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
award after speaking to Isis commanders. There is no doubt they | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
were intubated in the camps of the Americans. That is what the | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
intervention has done and the honourable gentleman knows full well | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
that is the result of intervention. Only two months ago, 1 of the | :25:08. | :25:15. | |
central views of the US and its allies was involvement in Sxria | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
would only fuel more radicalism and extremism. The US Defence Sdcretary | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
warned that the consequences for Russia will it will become fearful | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
of terrorism. The point centred in public debate in the UK and this | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
House is involvement in dis`strous wars increases, not the cre`ses | :25:38. | :25:48. | |
threats to us in the West. The US general, he said, the more bombs we | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
drop fuels the conflict. Th`t is a hard truth for some to hear but it | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
is the truth. The war on terror was started by George W Bush and was | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
just to do something. This hs the school of thought prominent today. | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
It turned a view hunted terrorists into a force of almost 100,000 | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
almost globally, active in 20 countries. | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
The classic recruiting tacthcs, based on lies. The must do something | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
rhetoric talked at the time of appeasement, trying to conjtre | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
images of Neville Chamberlahn. All the while, the unseen appeasement | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
was that of George Bush by the poodle that we had as UK le`der | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
Tony Blair. A recent articld in the Guardian said war is a boomdrang | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
that will come back and hit us in the form of terrorism. We h`ve to be | :26:45. | :26:46. | |
honest about that very real possibility with the people. The | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
Daily Telegraph said as much very recently about the crash of the | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
Russian jet in Egypt. That was, said the Telegraph, a direct consequence | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
of Russia's involvement in Syria, indicating further that perhaps | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
Putin had incited this attack on the Russians. We have to be cardful that | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
what we see in the eyes of others, we see in our own. In Syria we have | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
ten countries bombing, the Kurds fighting, the Free Syrian fhghting, | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
which the Defence Select Colmittee told us is a ragbag of 58 sdparate | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
factions, we have Assad, Dadsh, Russia bombs our allies but we are | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
looking like we will not or cannot bomb there is, we can have the | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
Turkish bombing of Russian planes, also bomb the Kurds. When they | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
bombed the Russian plane, they were taunted by the Greeks. Throw in | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
America, France, the UK, thd regional powers and we have the | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
powder keg of 1914 and that we seem blissfully unaware of. All hn all, | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
we have a debate about two jets taking us into a situation that we | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
should not be going into. I am against this, as you can sed, in | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
many ways. But I am also ag`inst this in the way the Governmdnt are | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
handling it. They should have given more time for this. They should not | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
have bumped the House on thhs yesterday, they know that ftll | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
well. The final point is th`t the UK caught between the | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
military-industrial complex, giving an urge to the people here that | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
something must be done, even if it is the wrong thing. As a recently | :28:24. | :28:33. | |
elected member of this Housd, one of the questions I ask myself before | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
putting myself up for electhon was would I be ready to stand up and be | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
counted on a day like today? I am pleased to be able to add mx voice | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
to this debate today and lax out my position. I have to say, deciding on | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
how I vote in this motion today is one of the serious and soleln | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
occasions in my life. I havd taken longer and more agonising b`nner | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
over how I would vote this dvening than just about any decision I have | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
had to make so far. Mr Speaker, let me be clear about what we are | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
deciding on today. This is `n extension of a conflict that we are | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
already engaged in. It is not a new conflict. Daesh are already our | :29:13. | :29:20. | |
mortal enemy. They hate us `nd everything we stand for. Wh`t is at | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
stake here is our national security. But it makes no sense to me | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
whatsoever for us to be willing to attack them from the air in Iraq, | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
but not be prepared to follow them into Syria. They are our endmy and | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
they remain our enemy wherever they can be found. We also need to note | :29:40. | :29:47. | |
that extending into Syria is only one part of a full package of | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
measures contained in this lotion. We all want to see peace in Syria | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
and in that region. I am pldased that this motion commits us to not | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
just bombing, but to our continued involvement to find a polithcal | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
resolution in Syria. We want to see an end to the refugee crisis that is | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
seeing thousands upon thous`nds of Syrian people risking their lives to | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
escape from the terror of D`esh We want to be able to begin thd work of | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
reconstruction in Syria, and to see the country and that region rebuilt | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
and returned to economic st`bility. This motion commits us as a country | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
to play a part in all of thdse things. But none of these things | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
well be possible while Daesh remains able to continue that campahgn of | :30:37. | :30:44. | |
terror in that country. In coming to my decision on how to vote, along | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
with wanting to see a comprdhensive package of measures, I also had two | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
main specific concerns that I needed answered. These were reflected in | :30:53. | :31:00. | |
many of the e-mails I received from constituents. Firstly, will | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
extending military involvemdnt in Syria increase or lower the risk to | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
our nation? We have to understand we are already at the top of the list | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
of targets for Daesh. We have already heard of the seven known | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
planned attacks on our country. The reason that we have not witnessed | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
the scenes of horror, as Paris has on the streets of this country, is | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
not because we are not a target it is down to the incredible and | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
services. We should be eternally services. We should be eternally | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
grateful to them. This thre`t is not going to go away, or even lower by | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
doing nothing. I will not ghve way, I will carry on if I can, I am | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
nearly out of time. The second specific concern was that I needed | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
to answer the question of chvilian casualties. None of us want to see | :31:51. | :31:57. | |
the civilian casualties as ` result of the action we take. But we have | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
to face the fact that there are already civilian casualties as a | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
result of Daesh in Syria. Thousands of people are being murdered, being | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
terrorised and are being enslaved as a result of their activity. | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
Unfortunately, then Ellie always are civilian casualties when we engage | :32:18. | :32:25. | |
in war. -- then nearly. But I believe Daesh are killing more | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
civilians in Syria than I ever likely to be caught up as a result | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
of the aerial campaign. Not attacking Daesh will result in more | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
and more civilian casualties. I am confident to learn that in the 5 | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
months we have been bombing in Iraq there are no reported civilhan | :32:44. | :32:45. | |
casualties. That gives me confidence. Summing up, somd people | :32:46. | :32:53. | |
are saying this is not our fight, we should keep out of it, we should not | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
get involved. But it is alrdady our fight. Our people have alre`dy been | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
killed on the beach in Tunisia. British people were caught tp in the | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
attacks in Paris. This is not going to end there. This is our fhght and | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
I believe that we should be standing shoulder to shoulder with otr allies | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
and I will be voting with the Government and for the motion this | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
evening. Four minute on backbench speeches will now apply. Like other | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
honourable and right honour`ble members, I have given a gre`t deal | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
of consideration to this matter to the views of my constituents, my | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
colleagues and the contributions made in this House today. There is | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
no doubt that this is a verx difficult and complex set of issues | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
before us. However, I will be voting to extend our air strikes to Syria | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
this evening. I want to outline the fundamental issues which have | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
influenced my decision. The first was, does Daesh pose a clear and | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
present danger to the UK and our allies? Daesh are an appallhng | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
terrorist group, they are responsible for terrible hulan | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
rights abuses and war crimes. We have witnessed atrocities on the | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
beaches of Tunisia, on the streets of Paris and Beirut, and in the | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
skies above Egypt, and we know that seven Daesh plots against the UK | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
have been disrupted this ye`r alone. I think there is no doubt that they | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
pose a clear and present danger to the UK, at home and abroad, and to | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
our allies. My second questhon was, is their international support for | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
military action against Daesh in Syria? The UN Security Council | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
Resolution states that Daesh pose an unprecedented threat to | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
international peace and sectrity and calls on member states to t`ke all | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
necessary measures to deal with Daesh in Syria and Iraq. Thhs | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
resolution is unequivocal and asks us to act. Following the atrocity in | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
Paris, the French President has also made an explicit request to the UK | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
to join the air strikes agahnst Daesh in Syria. Thirdly, I `sk | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
myself, what has been the ottcome from the UK involvement agahnst | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
Daesh in Iraq? The RAF has helped to shrink the territory controlled by | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
Daesh by some 30%. They havd succeeded in doing great dalage to | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
their infrastructure and thdy have helped Iraqi forces, security | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
forces, and Kurdish Peshmerga troops to liberated towns from Daesh. My | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
fourth question is, is the TK already involved in confronting | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
Daesh in Syria? The UK has grown aircraft operating over Syrha and we | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
are providing equipment to forces opposed to both Daesh and Assad in | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
the country. The primary motion under consideration is not ` | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
decision to go to war, but to extend military action against Daesh into | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
Syria. Given that they do not recognise borders, I see no sense in | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
allowing them safe haven from RAF strikes in one country, when we are | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
confronting them in another. My fifth question is, is there a | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
comprehensive plan to end the civil war in Syria? Military action could | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
only be part of a wider process involving further political and | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
diplomatic efforts, which enables the Syrian peace process. The | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
International Syria support group, which includes major region`l | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
players and our allies, has been holding constructive discussions in | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
Vienna on this issue, and I am encouraged by the progress being | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
made. A sustainable peace in Syria will help bring it deliver `n end to | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
the chaos that has allowed Daesh to thrive. I would ask the Prile | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
Minister to give assurances that the bravery shown by Kurdish Peshmerga | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
forces and the Kurdish commtnity will be recognised and they would be | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
engaged in the Vienna process. Mr Speaker, I believe that there is | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
agreement in this House that Daesh pose a clear and present danger to | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
the UK and our first duty is to protect our citizens. Therefore it | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
is not right to expect our `llies to fight Daesh in Syria on our behalf. | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
Extending military action against them will not be the cause of plots | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
against the UK, they have already attempted multiple attacks on us | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
over the past year. But I bdlieve striking at Daesh has the potential | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
to erode their capabilities, to bring terror to our streets. I will | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
be voting in favour of military action. Thank you, Mr Speakdr. Shia | :37:22. | :37:31. | |
Mr Speaker, there have been many powerful speeches and I admhre those | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
people who have such a cert`inty of view about this which I do not | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
share. I suspect for that rdason that many people may find it | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
difficult to support what I am going to say. I am full of doubts. I think | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
many people in the country, listening to this debate, m`ny good | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
people, are full of doubts. I was talking to an Arab friend only | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
yesterday who lives and works in the region, who loves his country and | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
says, really, I think you are not being honest, you in the Brhtish | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
Parliament. You have got to go to war if you want to on the b`sis that | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
your friends and allies havd asked you, your closest friends and | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
allies, the French and the Americans. If that is what xou want | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
to do, go ahead and do it. Bear this in mind. When you go to war, you | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
almost certainly will not m`ke any difference and you might make things | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
a lot worse. That is the rather nuanced opinion, of many people in | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
the Middle East. I know that there is a sense of wanting to be in | :38:37. | :38:43. | |
solidarity with one's own friends in this chamber. But I was there in | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
this chamber during the Irap debate. I was one of only 14 | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
Conservative MPs have voted against it. I have not regretted th`t | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
have talked to people that have been have talked to people that have been | :38:56. | :39:04. | |
horribly scarred by war, tens of thousands of people have lost | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
brothers and sons as a result of our actions. We have to learn from | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
history and learn the lessons of our involvement in Afghanistan, Iraq and | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
Libya. We have had to appro`ch this debate, not from a party pohnt of | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
view, or from what is important for our own country, but a deep sense of | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
humanity and love of peace, and care, for some of the most | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
vulnerable and traumatised people in the world. We have made terrible | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
decisions, which have made the lives of many people much worse. Ht is a | :39:37. | :39:47. | |
political decision, I accept that our little involvement will make | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
some difference, I'm not gohng to repeat all of the arguments, I am | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
not going to comment on Brilstone missiles. I am sure they wotld | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
degrade Isil. I am sure the arguments can be made that hf we are | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
bombing in Iraq, why not Syria? But there is a difference, in that in | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
Iraq we are supporting a legitimate, is inadequate government, wd are | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
supporting ground forces, whereas the situation in Syria is hopelessly | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
confused. I'm afraid we cannot forget that many of us were asked to | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
bomb Mr Assad two years ago. I've heard of the phrase, my enely's | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
enemy is my friend, but my dnemy's enemy is my enemy is rather more | :40:30. | :40:30. | |
complex. I don't live here agrees with me, | :40:31. | :40:39. | |
that so often we have gone hnto these places with a minimal | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
knowledge on the ground. For example, most of the people we call | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
Daesh in Syria and Iraq are the ordinarily Sunnis and we have to | :40:48. | :40:55. | |
give them in one minute meaningful choice than living under Ishs or | :40:56. | :41:05. | |
militia. I agree and I think we are narrow-minded in the baby look at | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
the debate we want to call Hsil Daesh but many people in thd Muslim | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
world for whatever reason stpport Isil and we find that an | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
extraordinary point of view. If by some miracle a bombing camp`ign made | :41:20. | :41:35. | |
a difference, if by some miracle and achieved all that, what would | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
happen? Would Isil go away? No, because Isil is an idea, not a | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
criminal conspiracy. There `re many people in the Muslim world who | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
support this flawed ideologx and we in the West and in this House are | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
not going to be defeated by military action -- not going to defe`t it. | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
I'm not a pacifist. My duty is not to my friends in France as luch as I | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
love them, it's not to the common ties people in the Middle E`st, it's | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
the people we represent. If in his summing up the Secretary of State | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
can convince as that not th`t some people are inspired but there is a | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
direct threat to this country from Raqqa, that that is a command and | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
control structure and they `re plotting to kill our people, | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
honourable friends are noddhng, says he did from the Secretary of State, | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
if we had acting in self defence, then by all means, let us go to war | :42:38. | :42:45. | |
but let us be a just war, ddfending our people in the sense of deep | :42:46. | :42:56. | |
humanity and love of peace. Obviously it is a very diffhcult | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
decision. None of us here w`nt to be in the position that we are in. None | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
of us here want to believe that going into Syria or bombing in Syria | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
is a good decision but the reality of it is, let's be quite cldar, | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
we're not bombing are plannhng to bomb Syria. My understanding is | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
we're planning to bomb Isis in Syria, we're planning to take on | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
that regime and that terrorhst regime and my goodness, comhng from | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
Northern Ireland, we know what it is like to fight terrorism. We know | :43:35. | :43:41. | |
what it is like to have to tndergo that scrupulous nature of pdople | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
trying to assess every movelent that you take. I have great symp`thy for | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
the Prime Minister and the Government taking this decision I | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
have your sympathy for all those around us who have to take this | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
decision. Whatever chamber we go through tonight or whatever lobby we | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
go through tonight, because it is not an easy decision. But c`n I also | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
say, what are the alternatives? Yes, I have a lot to be able to negotiate | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
with the Syrian Government, with those people in the Middle Dast who | :44:17. | :44:18. | |
are genuinely interested in a peaceful outcome, but is th`t | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
realistic on its own? We have heard the case immediately take that this | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
is not going to be a silver or gold and bullet, this is not going to be | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
the resolution for everything that will happen, but what I am sincerely | :44:35. | :44:42. | |
hoping it is is part of the process -- a process that can bring a | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
positive resolution and poshtive outcome. I would love to be here | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
today saying that we're going to be at peace in the Middle East for the | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
next foreseeable future but that is not the reality and that is not the | :44:55. | :45:02. | |
case. I just hope that we h`ve that strategy. I talked to the Prime | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
Minister and some of his officials just last week and one of the | :45:09. | :45:15. | |
challenges that I put was h`ve we a short-term and long-term strategy | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
that will actually resolve this not just with bombings and not just with | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
military action, but there `re overarching strategies to rdsolve | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
this in principle? I have hdard since then, I headed on that evening | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
when I met the Prime Ministdr and his officials, I heard it in a | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
statement that there are strategies. None of us can guarantee those will | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
positively work but I am sincerely hoping that they do and thex will | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
work. I want to assure this House that I would take this decision | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
lightly. I will be voting for the action as proposed by the Prime | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
Minister here today. I do not take it lightly but I do want sincerely, | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
a genuine outcome to this. H want to reassure all the people of the | :46:03. | :46:09. | |
western world, all those people in the Middle East that we are standing | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
for a peaceful society, that we are standing actually with thosd | :46:16. | :46:16. | |
shoulder to shoulder and hopefully that we can get a genuine rdsolution | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
that will help not only the people in this chamber here today but are | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
wider society -- our wider society. I see today, there is one | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
overarching strategy we must look at and that is the protection for the | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
citizens of the United Kingdom and the protection of the citizdns of | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
the western world. Mr Speakdr, I am hoping we're doing that herd today. | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
No one who has taken part in this debate to date has approachdd it | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
lightly and I think we would all agree that anyone who would suffer | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
intimidation is as a result of whatever decision they have come to | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
should have the sympathy of the House. We must be free to express | :47:03. | :47:09. | |
our views. We are accountable for what we see and do to our | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
constituents. Notwithstanding the enormous media hype there h`s been | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
about this debate today, it is not a decision to go to war like Like | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
honourable friend for North Somerset said. It is essentially an dxtension | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
of existing operations which we have been carrying out in Iraq shnce the | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
House voted last year by 524 to 43 that the Government should take that | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
action. I think it is important Mr Speaker, that our interventhon in | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
Iraq has been have slipped the critical. Without that intervention, | :47:45. | :47:51. | |
there is no doubt that Isil,Daesh would have taken control of the | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
whole country. They were within a view males of Baghdad and h`d they | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
taken control of Iraq, the consequences for the entire region | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
let alone as would have been catastrophic, if they had bden in | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
charge of the entire oil output of Iraq. It would have been maxhem | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
Since we joined with partners in Iraq, 30% of the land taken by Daesh | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
has been recovered so it has been a contribution well worthwhild and is | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
Sunday said, it makes no sense for it made up the aircraft of the Royal | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
Air Force to have to turn b`ck at the border. Many have spoken about | :48:32. | :48:39. | |
the unique capability of whhch the United Kingdom as an witch fans and | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
the nation state as does to contribute to this operation. To my | :48:43. | :48:51. | |
honourable friend, to whom H normally am in agreement but not on | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
this occasion, the Brimstond missile is a unique capability which only | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
the United Kingdom is able to deploy. There is one other country | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
which has it but the UK is the only one able to deploy it and that is a | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
missile which is proven to have precision strike which reduces the | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
likelihood of civilian casu`lties to a minimum. Of course there will | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
never be complete absence of civilian casualties but Daesh are | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
attacking people every day of the week. The United Kingdom has some of | :49:24. | :49:32. | |
the most stringent rules of engagement. I know that frol | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
personal experience, I was ` defence minister in the Libyan oper`tion, | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
and a painstaking extent to which the military and politicians go to | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
to ensure that the target is a legitimate target, that that target | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
is an important military target that there is an absence of | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
civilians around the target is extraordinarily and the House should | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
be under no illusions that there is any kind of cavalier approach to | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
this so I would like to makd that point the wider public as wdll. Mr | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
Speaker, this is a complex hssue but there are some simple truths in my | :50:07. | :50:13. | |
view. Daesh's medieval barb`rism is a threat to the Middle East and | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
ours. The United Nations Security Council has called unanimously on | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
security measures. Thirdly, we have a unique capability I have just | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
referred to and forth, we are working flat out on the diplomatic | :50:28. | :50:29. | |
front through the international city are support group and there is all | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
that can be done as my honotrable friend said, but Mr Speaker, Daesh | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
will continue killing, behe`ding and freaking until we stop them doing | :50:42. | :50:43. | |
that to innocent people and I think it would be a model for us to stand | :50:44. | :50:51. | |
aside -- raping. -- it would be immoral. 12 years ago I sat over | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
there listening to a very eloquent speech from our Prime Minister. Very | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
emotional, a lot of pressurd on us in the back benches, more than | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
today, and I have listened to the speech by the Prime Minister and | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
just like last time, I just felt an instinct that what we were doing in | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
Iraq was wrong and I had to say that I feel that very same instinct. I am | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
certainly not a pacifist. I was one of the few people along with Paddy | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
Ashdown who called for the bombing in Bosnia long before it was | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
Government policy and I am not a supporter of terrorism from Northern | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
Ireland and I was disappointed and pray minister will apologisd to me, | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
to accuse people of me who light be going in to vote against thhs motion | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
that we are in any way support of terrorism, I take it very | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
personally. We have heard from lots of people quoting generals, | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
important people, I would jtst like to mention one of my constituents | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
who was a soldier for nearlx 20 years in the regular Army and he | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
wrote to me and told me that he viewed with Disney the currdnt | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
clamour to the engage in thhs war. -- with dismay. When the IDF were | :52:09. | :52:23. | |
told to bomb Libya, they sahd it was nothing like Afghanistan -- our AF. | :52:24. | :52:33. | |
They always get it wrong. I not against bombing Daesh if I was | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
convinced it would work but that have to be many questions and | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
served. Do we know who our dnemy is on it is -- or is it many of the | :52:43. | :52:49. | |
multiple jihadi Crips? Who `re allies? Is it like you put hn or | :52:50. | :53:03. | |
Assad -- Vladimir Putin? Can we trust our allies? This is the | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
trouble with allies of convdnience. What happens when their intdrests | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
conflict with ours? Do we bond each other? -- bomb. Is Daesh under a | :53:13. | :53:21. | |
centralised command structure that can be destroyed through bolbing? | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
When Daesh is removed, who will come in to rebuild, we populate `nd keep | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
the peace? We'll be moving Daesh from Syria remove worldwide | :53:32. | :53:41. | |
jihadis? Will it increase as Muslims react to their deaths? Why do we | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
always have to be the policdmen going in first? I haven't ydt heard | :53:45. | :53:51. | |
a convincing answer to any of these questions and if they are unanswered | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
and we go ahead and bomb civilians, we are being as unthinking `nd | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
reactionary as some of thosd people we're fighting. Daesh is an | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
organisation that has no civilised barriers. We're fighting a cult that | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
has no moral values whatsoever. Bombing will not change that. We had | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
to look at more clever ways and spend some of that money we're going | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
to spend on this bombing on guarding our borders and making sure that the | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
work against jihad is and fundamentalism in this country is | :54:24. | :54:37. | |
tackled. There is no moral case I do not wish to try the patidnce of | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
you, Mr Speaker, or the House by merely repeating comments and | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
arguments made by members e`rly today and defendant -- if anybody | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
wants to know my opinion, I agree with the member for North Somerset. | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
My main reason for supporting this motion today is very simple. We have | :55:00. | :55:06. | |
friends and allies and I have great respect for their friends and allies | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
and when our friends ask us for help, we need to deliver. The French | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
and Americans are asking for our help and they are asking for our | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
help because we have special capabilities they do not currently | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
have. The constituent e-mail me earlier today and said, what would | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
happen if we needed assistance in the future but do not help our | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
allies on this occasion? I could not agree more. I whll | :55:31. | :55:39. | |
simply say, therefore, it is part of what makes Britain great th`t when | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
our friends ask for help, wd deliver. | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
Mr Speaker, this debate is not about certainties. I think we all know in | :55:49. | :55:56. | |
our heart of hearts that it is not about certainties. It is about | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
judgment, it is about finelx balanced judgments, but ones on | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
which the lives of people ddpend, both here and in Syria. What we do | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
know is that defeating Daesh requires a strategic action across a | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
number of fronts. It does mdan taking them on Ideologicallx, it | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
means tackling the causes of their rivals. That means thwarting the | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
grubby financial trade pattdrns that keep them in business. I, for one, I | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
accept that military action has to accept that military action has to | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
be part of the strategy, too. Now, last year, when Yazidi, Chrhstians, | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
Muslims and others were enchrcled on Mount Sinjar, I believed it was the | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
right decision for the UK to join coalition air strikes to push Daesh | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
back and to stop further massacres taking place, the Kurdish forces and | :56:46. | :56:54. | |
Syrian forces, that could t`ke territory back from Daesh and hold | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
it. I do not accept that if it is morally defensible to use ahr | :57:00. | :57:01. | |
strikes against Daesh 200 mhles in strikes against Daesh 200 mhles in | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
one direction, it becomes morally indefensible to do so 200 mhles in | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
the other direction, becausd there the other direction, becausd there | :57:10. | :57:11. | |
is a border in the middle which is a border in the middle which | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
Daesh do not recognise. If there is a doubt about legality, think that | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
is answered by UN resolution 22 9. Where I have concerns, and what will | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
influence my vote tonight, hs under the circumstances that we now face, | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
whether RAF participation in air strikes on the densely populated | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
town of Raqqa makes sense. H have seen no evidence to suggest that | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
there are ground forces there that are capable war which intend to be | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
able to take back that town. I am afraid there is no time, I do need | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
to let others get in. That hs not what these air strikes are `bout. We | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
have been told what they ard about is degrading Daesh capabilities | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
communications and so on. An important objective, certainly. But | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
we have also been told that that does not mean age generalisdd | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
bombing campaign and the usd, by the RAF, of sophisticated weapons to | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
minimise civilian casualties. So, I have asked the Prime Ministdr to | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
give more information about the rules of engagement involved. I have | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
yet to receive a reply. But I am prepared to believe that thd RAF | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
will target strikes very closely on military targets. The point is that | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
it is not simply RAF planes that will be hitting Raqqa. It is already | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
being bombed and, as far as I can tell, with a lot less activhty than | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
it was just the RAF would use. An article recently said there has been | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
a massive escalation since November 14, civilian casualties dralatically | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
on the rise, and, proportionally, Daesh casualties going down. Like it | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
or not, we will be seen as part of that general coalition of activity, | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
and we had to ask ourselves whether that will increase, down thd line, | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
indigenous forces joining us, or decrease it? Will it build support | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
for Daesh or reduce it? I think the risk is very, very real that we will | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
be handing Daesh, on a platd, a propaganda victory and we whll allow | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
impressionable people to thd won towards their murderous brand of | :59:26. | :59:34. | |
jihadism. In the absence of evidence that the air strikes will achieve | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
their political objectives, and the absence of evidence of what that | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
objective is, I have concluded I should not vote today to direct UK | :59:43. | :59:48. | |
participation on strikes on Raqqa Ennis house. Thank you, Mr Speaker. | :59:49. | :59:57. | |
It is a pleasure to follow on from the member from Birmingham | :59:58. | :59:59. | |
Northfield, who makes thoughtful remarks. I have come to a dhfferent | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
conclusion about the directhon I am going to vote this evening to the | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
honourable member. But it is worth reflecting that no MP, no | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
government, takes decisions about committing UK forces into combat | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
lightly. The debate we have this evening has highlighted that there | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
are no easy answers, no easx solutions to what are very complex | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
questions raised by the conflict in Syria and the fight with Dadsh. In | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
broad terms, there are thred issues that we are considering this evening | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
in debate. First of all, thd issue of combating extremism at home and | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
the impact air strikes might have on that. Secondly, is it right to | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
engage in air strikes against Daesh, given concerns over our ability to | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
engage in ground combat and effective and coordinated m`nners, | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
or support those troops in Syria? I believe yes, and I will comd back to | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
that later. Thirdly, the issue about protecting civilians and refugees. | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
So, briefly, on all of thosd points, first of all, dealing with the issue | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
of extremism at home, Isis do come I think we can all agree, present a | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
clear and present danger to the UK and our national security as things | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
stand today, before the votd tonight. To those that say that we | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
become a focus for attack if we vote for air strikes, it is clear we are | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
already a target for attack. We heard earlier there had been seven | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
plots in the UK linked to Isis in Syria that have already been foiled | :01:37. | :01:38. | |
by the UK police and security services. There is already ` | :01:39. | :01:46. | |
fundamental threat to our n`tional security, self-evident, in that | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
information passed forward today by the Prime Minister. The question of | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
whether Isis presents a thrdat to our national security at hole is | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
clearly yes. In my view, if we have a threat to our national security, | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
it is in the interests of mx constituents and all honour`ble | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
members to deal with that threat and to strike at Isis at its he`rt in | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
Syria, to protect British chtizens in the process. Secondly, the issue | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
about committing to air strhkes when we have... When there are concerns | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
about the capability on the ground, in terms of ground troops that we | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
can support. We have heard there is a patchwork of ground troops | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
involved and working to fight Isis on the ground. Clearly, at the same | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
time as this process, there is military action against Isis from a | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
number of European allies and a number of European countries. There | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
is also the Vienna process to build a broader diplomatic alliance. This | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
is, of course, a work in progress, both diplomatically and in terms of | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
identifying and supporting ground troops on the ground. The f`ct that | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
we do not have come at the loment, a perfect solution on the grotnd, we | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
do not have anything in place, the right capability to tackle Hsis and | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
support that fight against Hsis in a ground war by Syrian forces of | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
different types, it is not hn my view, a barrier to supporting air | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
strikes tonight, because it is an evolving process and we know the | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
threat that Isis poses, not just to the UK, but also to citizens. Final | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
point, it is on the issue of refugees and civilians. The biggest | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
threat, the biggest cause of threat to civilian life, in Syria, is | :03:37. | :03:47. | |
Isis. They are the greatest cause of refugees. It is because of Daesh | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
that we have a refugee crishs in Syria. I will be supporting the | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
Government this evening. It is a pleasure to follow the honotrable | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
member, who has spoken well. I share a lot of the argument of my | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
honourable friend from Birmhngham Northfield. I come to a different | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
conclusion as well. I have long argued, since the Government brought | :04:10. | :04:11. | |
the motion 14 months ago to begin the motion 14 months ago to begin | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
air strikes against Daesh in Iraq, I argued it was illogical to stop at | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
the Syrian border, that it unnecessarily penned in our forces, | :04:22. | :04:32. | |
when we were satisfied, even then, before the recent UN Security | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
Council Resolution, of the legality of that conflict and we werd | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
prepared to provide extensive logistical support to it. I share | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
the concerns expressed so wdll today by many of my colleagues ovdr the | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
ability of being able to brhng together ground forces, and in what | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
number, the viability of thd Vienna peace process, of the need to stop | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
there being a vacuum created again into which more can flow, and the | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
need to recognise that this is not simply a struggle of a year or a | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
couple of years, to defeat this evil ideology may take generations. It | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
may take far, far more than military ventures. It requires, I thhnk, a | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
whole rethinking in the way that we have engaged on the international | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
stage. Not just us, but all of our allies, to do much better than we | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
have done. Setting these concerns as hurdles to overcome before we allow | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
existing forces in the region to refocus, not to go to war, `s is so | :05:40. | :05:47. | |
often evocatively mentioned in the media, and in this House today, not | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
to go to war, but to refocus and existing capability, it seels to me | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
to fly in the face of milit`ry logic and, indeed, of common sensd. I am | :05:58. | :06:06. | |
concerned that my honourabld friend feels he has not been given the | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
information that he wants about the level of precision, the rulds of | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
engagement that the RAF air forces will bring to this campaign. I feel | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
that I have, and my sense is that they are far more precise, `nd that | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
the rules of engagement are far tighter, and therefore we c`n bring | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
a great effectiveness above and beyond what is already therd. It | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
makes sense to do that, rather than keep them in an area which hs away | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
from the headquarters, parthcularly given the fact, as we have been | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
given clear information, th`t the command centre is, even now, | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
planning missions that would strike at the UK and other countrids. Now, | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
the final thing I will say, Mr Speaker, is that I have been really | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
proud today to sit on these benches next to my right honourable friend | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
the Member for Derby South, my right honourable friend the Member for | :07:05. | :07:13. | |
Kensington upon Hull and hassle who I think have made superb spdeches. | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
While there are deeply held views on either side, I will do everxthing I | :07:19. | :07:27. | |
can to stop my party are, the cheerleader and Vanguard for a sort | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
of angry, intolerant pacifism, which sets a myriad of conditions, | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
preconditions, which they know will never be met and which will | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
ultimately save no to any mhlitary intervention. I think some of the | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
people on the front bench now.. And the people heckling behind le, they | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
need to think carefully abott the way they have conducted thelselves | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
over recent weeks. We need to do better than this to be a crddible | :08:00. | :08:07. | |
official opposition. Intervdntion will only succeed if it is part of a | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
coherent military and polithcal strategy. Both are needed. H have | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
yet to hear them from the statements of Ministers, although I very much | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
want to hear them. First, the military strategy. Degrading Isil's | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
capacity from the air will `chieve little unless it is followed by | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
effective use of ground forces. But President Obama has ruled ott | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
committing ground troops, so has the Prime Minister, so the question of | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
whether you troops are going to come from is paramount. The Primd | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
Minister appears to be insisting that Assad, who still has | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
significant forces in theatre, has no part in the future of Syria. In | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
that case, the ground war rdsts largely with the Kurds, less well | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
organised and they are in Iraq, and the reported 70,000 non-extremist | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
fighters. The reality of those seems to have faded somewhat in rdcent | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
days. Second, even more important, the political strategy. Before | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
military action can be justhfied, we need to have arrived at the part | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
where the main intervening powers are at least agreed of a broad | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
outline of a settlement. Th`t is not evident either. The militarx action | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
that has recently been taking place in Syria vividly illustrates the | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
absence of a strategy. We h`ve a handful of outside powers, `ttacking | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
or assisting a patchwork of different opponents, some of whom | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
are fighting each other. Thd political objectives of the Western | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
powers and current military action to further them and those of the | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
Russians are contradictory. The Russians have attacked the groups | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
that the West sees as the potential salvation of Syria. The US `nd | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
France want to remove the rdgime that the Russians have been seeking | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
to entrench. For military action to have a good prospect of succeeding, | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
we will need agreement among the major powers about the use `nd | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
objectives of air power. We need agreement about whom we are and who | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
we are not targeting and we will need agreement about how thd boots | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
on the ground will get therd and whose boots they will be. Hd refers | :10:07. | :10:14. | |
to the objectives of air power. For those of us who have been w`tching | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
the debate so far, there is a feeling that for those arguhng | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
against that, they have failed to answer the question of whether they | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
support the action in Iraq, where we have seen airpower deployed very | :10:25. | :10:32. | |
effectively, in my view, September in restricting the process of Isil | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
and defending Baghdad against terrorists. | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
I agree, there is a fundamental difference between Iraq and silly. | :10:40. | :10:47. | |
They are sharing and injuring response for what goes on there In | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
Syria, we will be picking up injuring responsibility for a failed | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
state if we engage. A polithcal plan is absolutely essential. It requires | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
a measure of agreement on a policy for regional stability and that can | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
only be achieved in collaboration with the Russians and probably the | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
Iranians. There are some guhdance for cautious optimism on thhs. In a | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
nutshell, I don't think there is enough. In the absence of both the | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
military and political strategy the west may succeed in suppressing | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
Isil-Daesh only temporary. Hn time, another Islamist militancy will | :11:27. | :11:34. | |
return. The ruling out ground forces is very significant. It tells us | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
after our Iraq and Afghanistan, the West appears to lack the military | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
strength to commit to resources that may be needed to restore a new order | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
from the shifting kaleidoscope of Syria. It would be relatively easy | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
to remove a broken dictator and to suppress Isil also from the air but | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
it would be extremely difficult to construct a resume more favourable | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
to our long-term interests. On that, we don't need to agree to look into | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
the crystal ball. We can re`d the book. The result of the dec`de of | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
intervention in the Middle Dast has not been the creation of a region | :12:15. | :12:21. | |
more attuned to Western valtes and interests, it has been several | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
dictatorships, which however Woody is when at least -- odious, were | :12:26. | :12:40. | |
able to suppress the anarchx and terrible suffering that has made us | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
less safe. It has allowed the conditions for the creation of | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
militant extremism. Today's vote is not a small step. Once we h`ve | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
deployed military force in Syria, we would be militarily, morallx and | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
politically engaged in that country for many years to come. That is why | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
the Government's description of the extension of bombing to Syrha is | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
merely an extension of what we are already doing in Iraq is misplaced | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
and we haven't had enough from the Government about exactly wh`t that | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
construction will mean. Mr Speaker, the timing of this vote has | :13:16. | :13:24. | |
everything to do with the shocking attack in Paris. Everybody feels a | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
bond with the French but an emotional reflex is not enotgh. | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
Military action might be effective at some point but military `ction | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
without political strategy hs folly. We have yet to get the | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
strategy and so I cannot support the Government's motion tonight. We are | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
fighting a losing the wrong war It is the one of hearts and minds which | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
can never be one with bombs and bullets -- it is a war. The | :13:51. | :14:00. | |
situation is terrifying and we imagine it confined to a cotple of | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
countries. People brought up here, educated and absorbing our culture | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
find themselves suggest by the message of Daesh -- seduced. It is a | :14:11. | :14:20. | |
mad, model is cold and we mtst examine that and the reason is that | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
the narrative of Daesh is vdry clever, it is very well conceived to | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
appeal to adolescent teenagdrs. It offers danger and martyrdom and | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
deepens the sense of victimhood that is there by turning up all the | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
stories of the middle ages `bout the wicked Christian crusaders, whole | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
slaughtered without mercy the Muslims and it is that hate that we | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
must challenge and we must have a different narrative. It is ` good | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
narrative for us to take because we have had great success in they're | :14:58. | :15:05. | |
for almost 200 years in places like Cardiff and Newport building up | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
mixed communities of races `nd the legends but we mustn't imaghne that | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
anything will be over in Syria or Iraq. This is spread throughout the | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
world, throughout Asia, throughout South America. It is hardly a | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
country in the world when D`esh doesn't want to spread its hatred. | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
They have a worldwide plan to divide the world into Muslim communities | :15:30. | :15:38. | |
and Christian communities. There is great suffering within the | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
communities that have been persecuted. Without falling into the | :15:42. | :15:54. | |
trap, they designed charm -, Egypt, Paris to get us going, to incite the | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
West and have a world war, this is what they want. They have s`id so. | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
They want a world war and wd must not fall into the trap. I bdlieve | :16:06. | :16:18. | |
what we have heard today, the combination of two dangerous views, | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
something must be done and give more a challenge -- give War a chance. We | :16:21. | :16:30. | |
went to war in Iraq and werd told by the same people who are telling us | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
now there are 770,000 troops there, they told us then there werd | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
definitely weapons of mass to structure. There were not. Hn 2 06, | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
we were told we could go into Helmand with no chance of a shot | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
being fired. We lost 454 soldiers. Little has been achieved because of | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
decisions taken in this House in the last 20 years, we have lost their | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
lives of 633 of our soldiers. I believe if we go in now, nothing | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
much will happen. There will be no improvement. We will strengthen the | :17:07. | :17:15. | |
antagonism. We will deepen the sense of victimhood by Muslims worldwide. | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
They will have another excuse. We mustn't fall into that trap. I | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
believe we need to have a counter dialogue, get it onto the mddia get | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
it onto the World Wide Web to say that there is a great story to be | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
told of harmony in our country and that is one that we must put forward | :17:37. | :17:51. | |
as a genuine alternative. I shall have to endeavour to explain to them | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
why I think my honourable friends are both mistaken in their | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
conclusions. All of us in this House have acknowledged the legithmate | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
subject that the condition of the Middle East is pretty close to being | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
catastrophic. There are powdrful forces at work building civhl | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
society apart, there is sectarian conflict, there are grievances of | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
the whole Brighty of canes that have been exploited by various dhctators | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
throughout the ages and had been repeated regularly and all the signs | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
are that in many places, thd structure is extremely fraghle and | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
we are very fortunate that hn one or two early it is subsisting. I also | :18:34. | :18:41. | |
agree that it is not amenable to any easy solution or we would h`ve found | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
that solution in a long timd ago but none of that explains to me | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
logically why some Honourable members in this House consider that | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
our action in extending our military actions against Daesh in Syria is | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
wrong. If it is wrong, intervention in Iraq the first place was wrong, | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
12 months ago, when as I have to say all the analysis IC suggests to me | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
it is the one thing that has prevented the situation whole | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
spinning out of control -- `nd analysis I see. It is good for | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
democracy to look at our shortcoming and not the many benefits of what we | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
may have achieved. It seems to me if we had not intervened, the serious | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
risk is that a generalised one would have broken out in the Middle East | :19:34. | :19:35. | |
with any union invention in the Middle East to prop up the Hraqi | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
regime and Saudi Arabia as well We watched to look on the bright side | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
of what has been achieved and then consider whether the limited steps | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
that are being proposed are in fact reasonable. It seems to me that they | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
are. They're not disillusioned to the problem and that extent the | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
challenge is a real one but it doesn't seem they are going to make | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
matters worse. What they show is equality of interest with otr allies | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
to whom we are committed to try to do something to address this problem | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
and to keep it under control until better solutions can be found. That | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
seems to me to be a legitim`te and proportionate response to the | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
problem that we face. It suggests in some way it will run away whth | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
itself. The law is vigilant. The legal basis for intervention is | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
limited and every action after this will need to be proportionate to | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
achieve the legitimate aim. I have every confidence my great Honourable | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
friends will be able to deal with that and every confidence in my | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
colleagues observing the lilits I was staggered to hear from the | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
member that we ought to emulate the trainees in this matter rather than | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
the French. I think that an extraordinary notion becausd I have | :21:09. | :21:27. | |
two say... As a member of that same committee, it can maintain hnfluence | :21:28. | :21:29. | |
without military action that will have a marginal effect. The question | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
that should be asked is a dhfferent one. Does our involvement dhminish | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
our diplomatic influence? What he fills to take into account hs that | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
by withdrawing as he would clearly advocate from the military process | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
entirely, we diminish our chance to influence our allies who sh`re our | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
values and that is why I find it astonishing that we should dmulate | :21:58. | :21:58. | |
China. Finally, there is thd list China. Finally, there is thd list | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
you I think is of great importance and touched on by the noble member | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
for Newport West of Islamophobia and structures of our own society. He | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
has my sympathy and knows mx interest in this matter over many | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
years will stop I have absolutely no doubt that Islamophobia is on the | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
rise in this country and th`t indeed our civil society threatens to be | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
undermined by a backwash th`t comes out of the Middle East. It hs a very | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
real challenge and one that everybody in this House ought to be | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
addressing will stop my tre`tises and I think I will in that regard -- | :22:34. | :22:42. | |
are well known. I don't think what we're doing in Syria undermhnes | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
that. On the contrary, a saxs are powerless in the face of thd model | :22:48. | :22:58. | |
is cruelty of Daesh is a fudl for Islamophobia. Since the election in | :22:59. | :23:15. | |
May, all the MPs have faced a range of new experiences and challenges. | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
Today's vote will mark one of the most significant challenges we have | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
taken in our careers and we do not take lightly. I'd respect the | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
minister's case that expressed disappointment at the words he chose | :23:30. | :23:30. | |
to use | :23:31. | :23:32. |