Part Two House of Commons


Part Two

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trainees in this matter rather than the French. I think that an

:00:00.:00:00.

extraordinary notion becausd I have two say... As a member of that same

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committee, it can maintain hnfluence without military action that will

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have a marginal effect. The question that should be asked is a dhfferent

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one. Does our involvement dhminish our diplomatic influence? What he

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fills to take into account hs that by withdrawing as he would clearly

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advocate from the military process entirely, we diminish our chance to

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influence our allies who sh`re our values and that is why I find it

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China. Finally, there is thd list China. Finally, there is thd list

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you I think is of great importance and touched on by the noble member

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for Newport West of Islamophobia and structures of our own society. He

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has my sympathy and knows mx interest in this matter over many

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years will stop I have absolutely no doubt that Islamophobia is on the

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rise in this country and th`t indeed our civil society threatens to be

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undermined by a backwash th`t comes out of the Middle East. It hs a very

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real challenge and one that everybody in this House ought to be

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addressing will stop my tre`tises and I think I will in that regard --

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are well known. I don't think what we're doing in Syria undermhnes

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that. On the contrary, a saxs are powerless in the face of thd model

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is cruelty of Daesh is a fudl for Islamophobia. Since the election in

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May, all the MPs have faced a range of new experiences and challenges.

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Today's vote will mark one of the most significant challenges we have

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taken in our careers and we do not take lightly. I'd respect the

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minister's case that expressed disappointment at the words he chose

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to use last night to describe those who with equal sincerity disagree

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with his view. Those of us who find ourselves opposing the Government

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motion have thought long and hard about her decision and its

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consequences for so many. Wd have listened to our constituents and

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organisations the length and breadth of the country who have contacted us

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to share their views. We have acknowledged the brave men `nd women

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of our Armed Forces who put their lives on the line to protect us

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every single day. Mr Speaker, we have also thought as well about our

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own security of the people of Syria. Well much of today's

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discussion has been on the Government's motion and milhtary

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action, there is another important perspective on this catastrophic

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situation. That of the people of Syria and those in the Middle East

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who have been so tragically affected by this conflict and whether adding

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to the multiple countries already bombing Syria will help thel or

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indeed our security at all. Which she agree with me that in all of

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these discussions and considerations, we must think about

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the human cost and and in p`rticular those vulnerable groups likd the gay

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and lesbian community who are already being persecuted? They are

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already being persecuted and further bombing will mimic that sittation

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worse. I thank my honourabld friend for her intervention and wotld

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implore members of this House to give respect to them. I agrde with

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it in its entirety. More th`n half the Syrian population are now living

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in poverty and civilian castalties are on the increase. Recent Russian

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air strikes have killed 485 civilians including 117 children and

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47 women. The fact relating to this vicious conflict are alarming and it

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is difficult to imagine the human stories which lie behind thdm. That

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is why I visited refugee calps to see for myself the scale of the

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Germanic TV in disaster there and to hear first-hand the accounts of

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refugees who have fled Syri`. I listened how families told me how

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they have been uprooted by violence, and had nothing more to rettrn home

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to. I heard about how their villages had been reduced to rubble by air

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strikes ordered by President Assad. I spoke to somebody whose house was

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flattened by forces in an Assad attack, which killed her mother

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brother and husband. I met with basil from Damascus, he spent two

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years in prison being tortured by Assad security forces, and hs now

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unable to walk. Mohammed was a pilot in the air force and fled the

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country with his family when he was asked to take part in bombing raids

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on civilian targets within his own country. A writer said to md, we are

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not numbers, we are not anilals we want to be human beings, not numbers

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on a page. I have no dreams, I just want to go home, but Daesh `re

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occupying my home now. What these individuals and families were united

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in was their desire to return home one day to rebuild their lives. They

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are human beings with a story and that story should be heard. A story

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which confirms to us all thd complex nature of what is happening in the

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region and the number of protagonists already involvdd,

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crucially, with different agendas and different targets. Many issues

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require to be addressed to lake Syria return to peace. The proposals

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ahead of us do not do this. We need a plan to defeat the terrorhst cult

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Daesh and replace Assad. We also need a plan to rebuild Syri` and

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have a better future for thd people I have mentioned on so many more. To

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join the already ongoing bolbing campaign in the skies over Syria

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will only compound human suffering. Military intervention withott

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credible peace building plans will only make the situation worse. Just

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as it did in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan. A comprehensivd

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strategy against Daesh is rdquired. The UK could take the lead hn a more

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coordinated effort to help squeeze Daesh financial is, -- finances and

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secure a long-term peace pl`n. This is not in today's motion, Mr

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Speaker. While I will be supporting the amendment, I will be voting

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against the Government motion. Since I was 18, I spent a large portion of

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my life as a soldier and television reporter, and an MP, in somd of the

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more unhappy places in the world. The thing that has really struck me

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is the blindingly obvious, that war and conflict are the results of

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broken politics. Over the l`st 5 years or so, our country has made

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some disastrous decisions which have left tens of millions of people in

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the Middle East and North Africa in a very difficult position. @s one

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Middle Eastern ambassador ptt it recently to me, last week, on the

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Foreign Affairs Committee trip to Iraq in Turkey, you have to diagnose

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a sickness properly in order to treat its root causes. Pallhative

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therapy is not a cure. So, what have we got in Syria and Iraq? Wd have

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got... We think of Isis being Jihadi John, but the reality of Ishs is

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that it is mostly the Sunni populations of those areas. Our

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challenge, if we ever want to have a key to this problem, is to separate

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the disenfranchised Sunnis from what you might call call Isis. Wd got to

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give the Sunnis of the Middle East a different choice. At the molent they

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have a choice between Isis `nd security from Shia militia, or Shia

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militias. Air strikes play their part, of course they do. To me, they

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are very much lower down on the to-do list. We got to have ` proper

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political and security strategy so we can separate the populathons from

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Isis. They are ultimately otr ground troops against Isis. Until we

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realise that, we are stuffed. A very senior coalition commander hn Iraq

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said the following last week. We have a military campaign, btt we

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don't have a political one. Russia, Iran, Saudi, Turkey, the US, they

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are all doing their own thing. I don't have time to go through it

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now. So, I believe that, actually, the politicians in this rool, this

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afternoon, and we have given expert opinions on military things. But the

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politicians have been a bit short on talking about the politics. It is

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politics only... Not only, politics mainly, that will fix this. I think

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that the biggest thing that the the United Kingdom can do right now is

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to use the influence we think we do not have too actually talk to people

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very seriously, so there is a proper, long-term strategy that

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results in a cure. Bombing can only ever be palliative. I'm dond.

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Yes, well, we are extremely grateful to the honourable gentleman. Most

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helpful. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I support the amendments and will be

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voting that way tonight, as will my colleagues in Plaid Cymru. Luch

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earlier this afternoon, the honourable member who is no longer

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in his place referred to thdse benches with a wave of majesty and

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referred to us as the pacifhsts Plaid Cymru is not a pacifist

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party, confirmed only yesterday by our leader in the National

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Assembly. We opposed military action in Iraq, we supported it in Libya,

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though now I have my doubts. I have many concerns about the

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Government's proposals. I whll not list them all. I will say that the

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Prime Minister has said that there are thousands of moderate Sxrian

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fighters that will provide the forces on the ground, and hd will

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rightly not commit himself. That is absent from the motion todax. My

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view is that the proponents of bombing have become increashngly coy

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on this matter, no surprise there. We have been presented many times

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with a false dichotomy. Bomb or do nothing. We can bomb, all wd can do

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something, things which are, in my view, reasonable, proportionate and

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effective. For example, further support for the Peshmerga force

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which has proved itself, ag`inst the odds, to be so effective ag`inst

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Daesh with very few resourcds. Pressure could be put on Turkey to

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desist from attacking the Ktrds so they can both concentrate on

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defeating Daesh. What can wd do to secure a future for the Kurds in

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Southern and Western Kurdistan, and also secure a settlement for the

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Kurds, points which nobody has made this afternoon, which I think is

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another small but essential part of the jigsaw. Daesh do not act alone

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and that is abundantly clear they are killers, not talkers. Btt they

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have international sponsors providing them with money and

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material. So, what further pressure can we put on Gulf states, on their

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citizens, on Turkey, to stop the supply of resources that Dadsh needs

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to wage their evil war? Syrha is not some distant land of which we know

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little. Daesh and supporters are eager to wage war on the streets of

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Western Europe. The supportdrs who perpetrated the foul work in Paris

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were home-grown, as were those who bombed London. Terrorists are being

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trained in Syria, but radic`lised through the specious arguments of

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those who see oppression evdrywhere and who misused distortions of Islam

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to inspire mayhem and murder. They do this here and they do it on the

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internet. We could take steps in that respect. There is also the

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Vienna process, which I will not refer to further, because of the

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provision of time. It has bden said this afternoon, will bombing make us

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safer? Some honourable membdrs have said we are proposing keeping our

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heads down. Now, in terms of further bombings in the West, I think if we

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do bomb Syria we will be sowing a further 1000, not bombing is a

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serious security considerathon. It is not just kidding our heads down.

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Tony Blair, his persuasive best convinced a majority that Britain

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was in imminent danger of attack and we should wage war in Iraq. As has

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already been said, 2003 is not 015, but, Mr Speaker, we are still

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waiting for the Chilcot Report. I am not starry eyed about the prospects

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for that report. But I do bdlieve that its earlier publication would

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have been valuable in inforling this debate. That delay is deeplx

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regrettable. There is a strong pacifist tradition in this country

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that often requires courage to hold two. We have seen this in conflicts

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down the years. I have respdct for those that could never support

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military action in any circumstances, wrong though I

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believe them sometimes to bd. The rest of us have to reach a settled

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view about whether this proposal before us tonight is right or

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wrong. My view is that, on balance, it is right. I come, like m`ny

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honourable members in this House, from what he might call the

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post-Iraq generation. My default position is to apply a healthy dose

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of scepticism to any request for military intervention. We c`n all

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think of a great many reasons why not going ahead with an extdnsion of

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this air campaign is the right thing to do. I entirely concede it is not

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without its risks. But we h`ve to understand the true impact of saying

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that we will set this out. Hf we say that and accept that the attacks

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have limited Daesh's abilitx to operate in mass formations, to

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conduct clear command and control operations and the rest of ht, we

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are, in the words of the Prhme Minister, subcontracting out our

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security to our friends. I believe over the last few days we h`ve seen

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many of the reasons not to proceed for the way. A unanimous UN

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resolution, a political and diplomatic process involving tea

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party is under way and a grdater understanding of what an air

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campaign is and... Night and by honourable friend for giving way. I

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agree with him wholeheartedly that we need to take action, how ever

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difficulties. Isil want to destroy everything we believe in with

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murderous acts, so we do nedd to act and act now. I am grateful for my

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honourable friend and I agrde with him. One of the main arguments being

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plucked by many, even the chairman of the select committee on which I

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sit, that their campaigns are only to be used successfully with little

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green men in battalions movhng across the ground underneath the top

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cover provided. In a perfect world, that is how we use air cover. But we

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don't live in a perfect world. I asked one of my constituents,

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something someone who knows about this, General Sir Mike Jackson, if

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you could remember any conflict were air strikes alone made a difference.

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He said one word, Kosovo. Hd started to repeat other conditions were an

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air campaign can defeat an dnemy. Now we have moved on to question the

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existence of these so-called 70 000 combatants. We can all dancd on the

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head of a pin. We can all s`y this is the reason why we cannot support

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this tonight, because they light not be the kind of people we like, they

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might not be the kind of people to whom we would find an effective

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force on the ground immediately But they are there, and they have not

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signed up to Assad, they have not signed up to the evil death cult

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that we are targeting. We h`ve got to use them. After the failtres of

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the Iraq war, we have at le`st got an independent and analytic`l

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organisation like the joint intelligence committee that provide

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details of this. So they ard not being provided by politicians or

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their advisers. We can quibble about who these people are, but, broadly

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speaking, since the Prime Mhnister raised that figure of 70,000, it is

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more or less stacked up. Thdre are militias, some local, but they are

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still there and we should use them. Standing by our allies at this time,

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particularly France, matters. Not stepping up now would give the

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impression we are happy to subcontract our security. It would

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leave Britain's role in the world in a very different place in the minds

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of our enemies. Britain's place in the world is not reason enotgh for

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armed conflict. Reason enough is found by recognising that the threat

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is right here and right now, to the thousands of my constituents who

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travel to London every day to work, or to attend a peaceful event, such

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as was taking place in the Bataclan theatre, or the cafes were lovers

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and friends met in a way th`t we would want to sit in every town or

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city in this country. The action proposed is limited, is leg`l and

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has the authority of the UN. In supporting the motion tonight, we

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will be taking the fight, whth our friends, to the heart of thd ground

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controlled by one of the most hideous death cults of modern times.

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Obviously strongly held views on this issue both for and agahnst and

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I believe we should respect views that are contrary to our own but I

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convinced and the merits of the keys to extend military action into Syria

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-- case. It seems impractic`l to take action on the Iraqi side of the

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border but not the Syrian shde we are Isil-Daesh are strong and we're

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their headquarters are situ`ted and where they are organising attacks on

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the streets of the UK. This is a matter of national security and we

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need to act in self defence. If we don't take action in Syria, it will

:20:23.:20:26.

increase the likelihood of terrorist threats in the UK because that

:20:27.:20:31.

exists now. Do not agree with our way of life so they want to end our

:20:32.:20:39.

way of life. It is false to believe if we leave Isil alone, thex will

:20:40.:20:42.

leave us alone. We need to degrade and destroy them. We bring to the

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table military ordinance is well limiting the threat to civilian

:20:51.:20:53.

life. We have heard a lot about the Brimstone missile, a missild that

:20:54.:21:00.

can be launched from an RAF jet without involving civilian

:21:01.:21:06.

casualties. Even the deputy chief of the defence officer said thd skill

:21:07.:21:15.

sets for approving attacks `re high. There has not been a civil tnion

:21:16.:21:20.

sent after months of bombing in Iraq. We have heard much about

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Syrian ground forces in Irap that can help to destroy Isil. It should

:21:24.:21:29.

not prevent involvement in `ir strikes. The first strategy must be

:21:30.:21:36.

implemented to suppress thehr ability to launch attacks on our

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streets. We should take part in them. We should support our allies.

:21:43.:21:50.

I don't how I could these m`y constituents if we voted no to date

:21:51.:21:54.

and god forbid there is a tdrrorist attack in the UK on a beach in

:21:55.:21:57.

cheesy and we haven't done `nything in our power to protect thel --

:21:58.:22:09.

Tunisia. Do we say get on whth it? But military intervention stops at

:22:10.:22:14.

the Iraqi side of the border even though we know the attack on the UK

:22:15.:22:18.

was organised from Syria? If we do not take part I believe we would be

:22:19.:22:23.

letting down our country, and reduce our credibility and the

:22:24.:22:26.

international arena is my prime motivation for supporting this arena

:22:27.:22:30.

is the protection of our citizens, the wider strategy... Paramhlitary

:22:31.:22:41.

involvement make only be sm`ll but our aircraft can use weaponry the

:22:42.:22:47.

caller she doesn't have that can limit casualties and suppress Isil

:22:48.:22:51.

activities. It is not a complete answer but it is a start. It will

:22:52.:22:55.

give us time to deploy a wider strategy and I feel uneasy `bout

:22:56.:23:00.

Britain not taking part in `ir strikes when we know it is ` matter

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of self defence and therefore I will be supporting this motion. H have

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the greatest respect for all of those colleagues who have spoken so

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eloquently against military action in Syria. The honourable melber for

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Gordon spoke about being dr`wn into civil war and that is why I voted

:23:25.:23:29.

against action in Syria two years ago but I believe this has gone

:23:30.:23:33.

beyond a civil war, that Ishs are bringing the fight to us and will do

:23:34.:23:36.

so again on the streets of Britain as they have done on the be`ches of

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Tunisia and Paris. This is `n enemy with which there can be no dialogue.

:23:44.:23:49.

This is an enemy which has perpetrated enslavement, rape,

:23:50.:23:55.

torture and mass murder. It takes control across all territorhes and I

:23:56.:24:00.

think there is a case in st`nding not only with our allies but

:24:01.:24:04.

standing with the United Nations in their called to take every `ction we

:24:05.:24:09.

can against a Daesh. I belidve there is a case for standing with the

:24:10.:24:17.

civilians on the ground. So far military action in Iraq has helped

:24:18.:24:22.

to push them back and prevent the kind of atrocities we have been

:24:23.:24:25.

witnessing across Syria and Iraq today. Air strikes by naturd

:24:26.:24:33.

intended to inflict death, pain and suffering on people and famhlies,

:24:34.:24:39.

some of them will be innocent. Can someone please tell me how this

:24:40.:24:45.

action. New people becoming radicalised, how it. New terrorists

:24:46.:24:48.

and improve the human rights situation on the ground? I think

:24:49.:24:54.

this goes to the heart of the matter and the heart of the matter is I

:24:55.:24:58.

would say to her that peopld are already being tortured and suffering

:24:59.:25:02.

across these territories and I would say to her that actually thd action

:25:03.:25:06.

we had taken so far in Iraq, very careful, measured action, h`s

:25:07.:25:10.

actually reduced the kind of civilian casualties to which she

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refers. I'm wrestling with this just as she is on behalf of my

:25:17.:25:20.

constituents and I would sax the majority of my constituents who have

:25:21.:25:23.

contacted me agree with the honourable lady and it is whth a

:25:24.:25:26.

heavy heart that I'm trying to make the case to them about why H believe

:25:27.:25:33.

it is not only now in our n`tional interest but the interest of those

:25:34.:25:37.

civilians who risk being taken over by an evil that is beyond or

:25:38.:25:41.

imagining here in the comfortable world that we live in in thd UK and

:25:42.:25:45.

I would say to her that those people have no hesitation whatsoevdr in

:25:46.:25:51.

perpetrating the most barbaric of atrocities. Over 5000 women and

:25:52.:25:59.

girls, for example, have bedn kidnapped and held in conditions of

:26:00.:26:04.

slavery, forced slavery and indeed child rape which is allowed by

:26:05.:26:09.

Daesh. I would say to her, which led to spare civilians across Iraq and

:26:10.:26:14.

Syria that fate, the fate that awaits them? But I agree thdse are

:26:15.:26:19.

very heavy considerations and I would also like to says is the crowd

:26:20.:26:26.

got than here forced family that over forces are already putting

:26:27.:26:32.

their lives on the line in the skies over Iraq and I would like to call

:26:33.:26:36.

on the Leader of the Opposition who is no longer in his place to

:26:37.:26:41.

actually reflect how much it will mean to those forces, familhes

:26:42.:26:47.

following this debate today to know that they don't count on his support

:26:48.:26:51.

and I think even though we `ll take respectfully different views about

:26:52.:26:56.

the risks or indeed the consequences of inaction if we extend our action

:26:57.:27:05.

over Syria, I would say that it is absolutely essential that hd states

:27:06.:27:12.

unequivocally his support for our Armed Forces in the skies above

:27:13.:27:18.

Iraq. I would say that for `ny of us considering whether to vote, I would

:27:19.:27:26.

like to focus on a moment on the consequences of inaction because our

:27:27.:27:28.

first responsibility in this House is to protect the citizens of this

:27:29.:27:34.

country and I believe it is only a matter of time before we sed the

:27:35.:27:36.

cane of mass casualty attacks that we have witnessed on the streets of

:27:37.:27:42.

Paris and around the world, perpetrated in the UK. I thhnk we

:27:43.:27:48.

have to ask ourselves, is there a greater sin in a mission th`n in

:27:49.:27:54.

commission, and I feel very strongly that there is a compelling case for

:27:55.:27:58.

us to be able to look the f`milies of those who may look their lives in

:27:59.:28:04.

future in the eye and say wd did absolutely everything we can to try

:28:05.:28:09.

and diminish the powers of this evil organisation. This is the f`scist

:28:10.:28:16.

war of our generation and jtst as we had to take action against fascism

:28:17.:28:20.

in Europe, I think that there is a compelling case to say we h`ve done

:28:21.:28:31.

everything we can today. It is a pleasure to follow the honotrable

:28:32.:28:35.

lady. She says she is from `n RAF family. My family served for 15

:28:36.:28:40.

years and the Royal Air Force and indeed through all the years of the

:28:41.:28:43.

Second World War and I was `ctually born at the RAF base in good a - in

:28:44.:28:54.

Germany. I want to make a vhew brief points. Bill Clinton when hd was

:28:55.:29:02.

elected US president had thd slogan, it's the economy, stupid, as the

:29:03.:29:08.

primary reason why people vote as they do in elections. I don't

:29:09.:29:11.

disagree with that entirely but there is a higher consideration that

:29:12.:29:15.

people have and that is that the primary duty of any Governmdnt or

:29:16.:29:18.

any party purporting to be the Government should do anything and

:29:19.:29:22.

everything they need to do to protect them cos -- their f`milies,

:29:23.:29:31.

and any Parliament that does not do that will pay a terrible prhce

:29:32.:29:34.

because that is what people expect the Government to do. I'm stre

:29:35.:29:42.

everybody in this chamber agrees with that. The only question we need

:29:43.:29:48.

to decide is how best to protect those people, those of citizens in

:29:49.:29:51.

our communities. I would ask and others have said this that we should

:29:52.:29:56.

accept the genuine depth of feeling that that is on this issue on both

:29:57.:30:02.

sides and I'm grateful for the many constituents who have contacted me

:30:03.:30:09.

as I'm sure they have contacted all members, many have sent forlalised

:30:10.:30:15.

letters given to them by other organisations but I do not dispute

:30:16.:30:17.

their belief in what they wdre saying and doing, and I'm grateful,

:30:18.:30:24.

particularly the ones that say even if you don't agree with me, I hope

:30:25.:30:27.

you will do what I think is right, and that is what I intend to do this

:30:28.:30:32.

evening. We got to decide what is the nature. I think this argument,

:30:33.:30:38.

this debate is really out of proportion. We're not talking about

:30:39.:30:42.

a new engagement somewhere dlse we're talking about a variation of

:30:43.:30:45.

the commitment that this Hotse overwhelmingly endorse not so long

:30:46.:30:51.

ago. It will have competitions. I have some sympathy with those who

:30:52.:30:55.

say the effect will only be marginal. That make be true but the

:30:56.:30:58.

question is, is it worth dohng or not? You need to decide where you

:30:59.:31:02.

come down on that side of the argument. I will certainly not be

:31:03.:31:07.

voting for the amendment because for a number of reasons, not thd least

:31:08.:31:16.

of which it implies the casd has not been made. That is the kind of think

:31:17.:31:21.

the Liberals used to say before 2010 when they had to face up to genuine

:31:22.:31:26.

responsibility. It's like when people say, I have a principle. If

:31:27.:31:35.

you oppose me, you are therdfore unprincipled. The truth is people

:31:36.:31:39.

can have deeply held views on this, genuinely and comprehensively, and

:31:40.:31:43.

we should respect views on this whatever it might be. I won't give

:31:44.:31:51.

way. All right, since you h`ve your gang with you. For his information,

:31:52.:32:00.

the cross-party amendment is exactly the same as the amendments which try

:32:01.:32:04.

to stop the war in Iraq. A lot of people think it would have been a

:32:05.:32:07.

better thing if that had bedn carried that day. I don't dhspute

:32:08.:32:15.

that for a moment but I'm not sure what his point is. I'll movd on The

:32:16.:32:22.

other thing is that people set up barriers and say, it must h`ve a UN

:32:23.:32:28.

resolution. The UN come for about a resolution and they say it hs not

:32:29.:32:32.

good enough. We want a bettdr quality UN resolution. It is

:32:33.:32:38.

ridiculous. These are weasel words and euphemisms. It is almost the

:32:39.:32:45.

impression that those who s`y the case is not be made to have a higher

:32:46.:32:49.

moral judgment superior to those who disagree with them. I must finish

:32:50.:32:55.

shortly. I will say to the Prime Minister that the Brimstone missile

:32:56.:32:59.

about which we have had much is known as a fire and forget weapon.

:33:00.:33:03.

What I had to say to him, it is known by some as that, maybd not

:33:04.:33:10.

you, but it has been described as a fire and forget weapon but H must

:33:11.:33:14.

say about this motion which I find comprehensive and persuasivd that

:33:15.:33:17.

this is not a fire and forgdt motion. If we pass it tonight, we

:33:18.:33:22.

had to come back to it, we `re to address all the issues raisdd in the

:33:23.:33:26.

motion and make sure nobody is pretending that the air strhkes

:33:27.:33:28.

alone will solve the problels in the Middle East. It is much mord that is

:33:29.:33:33.

necessary to be done and we need dedication, effort and applhcation

:33:34.:33:36.

to ensure that we can do as much as we can to bring peace and bring some

:33:37.:33:40.

degree of stability to a very troubled part of the world. I rise

:33:41.:33:47.

to speak in this debate with a degree of apprehension as I am sure

:33:48.:33:52.

everyone who has spoken has about the implications and outcomds about

:33:53.:33:58.

what we will collectively I hope the mandate our brave armed forces to

:33:59.:34:02.

engage in this evening. I also speak with absolute clarity in my

:34:03.:34:05.

conscience that supporting this motion is the right thing to do

:34:06.:34:12.

In Daesh, we face an enemy that will not ever be willing to sit down and

:34:13.:34:18.

discuss their grievances. An enemy that will not bargain with the West

:34:19.:34:24.

through intermediaries, bec`use they don't have any, and why? Because

:34:25.:34:28.

they despise us simply becatse of who we are. When you meet an enemy

:34:29.:34:34.

like that, you cannot back off, you cannot cite past misjudgements in

:34:35.:34:37.

Iraq, or the nature of Saudh arms trades, or the lack of progress in

:34:38.:34:43.

disrupting the oil trade as justification for not supporting the

:34:44.:34:46.

motion. We must realise that this evil force does threaten our

:34:47.:34:53.

security. It cannot be cont`ined in some far off land, as we continue to

:34:54.:34:57.

somehow close our eyes, stick our fingers in our ears and imagine it

:34:58.:35:02.

will go away. It won't. Thex won't. As we saw... I'm happy to ghve way.

:35:03.:35:09.

A decision for others in thhs House is this, to protect our cithzens and

:35:10.:35:14.

the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the ddcision

:35:15.:35:17.

must be taken to go to Raqq` and ensure those that are involved in

:35:18.:35:20.

the campaign to organise attacks in France and Belgium, that thdy are

:35:21.:35:23.

stopped, the source of monex is stopped. Those that are involved,

:35:24.:35:28.

the town of Raqqa is taken over and the people that live there have

:35:29.:35:33.

their freedom and liberty. H agree entirely with the honourabld

:35:34.:35:40.

gentleman. As we saw in Parhs, as our domestic security leaders tell

:35:41.:35:43.

us, as the many desperate rdfugees flooding into continental Etrope

:35:44.:35:50.

testify, the implications of this evil are real. I don't belidve any

:35:51.:35:55.

realistic alternative coursd of action exists that properly deals

:35:56.:36:01.

with the nature of this thrdat. My concern is this. We must accept that

:36:02.:36:08.

to defeat this evil we need a grand strategy. Covering humanitarian

:36:09.:36:14.

military, political and sectrity dimension is. This will likdly

:36:15.:36:22.

require more time than many of us want to contemplate or even our

:36:23.:36:26.

constituents want to contemplate. But I do believe that speci`l

:36:27.:36:31.

provision strike tornadoes will not be enough. We will need to dmbrace

:36:32.:36:37.

uncomfortable compromises whth Iran, with Russia and, yes, with @ssad

:36:38.:36:45.

himself. Syria will not become benign in its outlook until a

:36:46.:36:50.

comprehensive, long-term political solution is found. Which

:36:51.:36:57.

demonstrates acute sensitivhty to many conflicting but coexisting

:36:58.:37:02.

outlooks. Yet this political solution does not have a hope of

:37:03.:37:06.

success until we realise th`t some enemies of our way of life our

:37:07.:37:12.

freedoms cannot be hidden from. They cannot, and will not become less

:37:13.:37:16.

lethal. They will not diminhsh unless we take military acthon to

:37:17.:37:19.

degrade them. A task we cannot justifiably outsource to our French

:37:20.:37:28.

and American allies. Let's be clear, although I believe it is true

:37:29.:37:29.

that air power will not defdat an that air power will not defdat an

:37:30.:37:37.

enemy by itself, or this endmy by itself, it will not be defe`ted on

:37:38.:37:41.

the ground alone. We will nded to seek co-ordinated approach hs, a

:37:42.:37:52.

coalition, Nato, the Iraqi `nd Syrian army. Our air strikes are

:37:53.:37:55.

instrumental to the task we have to defeat this evil. I want to address

:37:56.:38:03.

the argument that says bombhng Syria will not stop jihadi bombers already

:38:04.:38:07.

in the UK or France. I don't believe it will. But that is to

:38:08.:38:12.

misunderstand the comprehensive strategy that must be emploxed and

:38:13.:38:19.

is now being employed. Spechal forces, the police and intelligence

:38:20.:38:24.

services are well provisiondd to prevent these atrocities. The severe

:38:25.:38:30.

risks we face currently will not be likely to diminish if we fahl to

:38:31.:38:34.

support today's motion. By failing to act, the evil heart pumphng life

:38:35.:38:39.

into this death cult will rdmain healthy. Finally, we must not

:38:40.:38:44.

underestimate the scale of the humanitarian crisis facing Syria. Or

:38:45.:38:48.

the length of time needed and scale of resources to help bring order to

:38:49.:38:55.

this country. I have thought very carefully about these matters. There

:38:56.:39:00.

is much I do not know, I concede that. But my conscience is clear. We

:39:01.:39:04.

must act to begin this long process, and intensely diffhcult and

:39:05.:39:09.

delicate process, of facing up to eight profound evil. I will support

:39:10.:39:15.

today's motion and our Primd Minister's compelling case. I pay

:39:16.:39:20.

tribute to the honourable gdntleman who spoke with great integrhty. The

:39:21.:39:27.

Prime Minister has been public, graceless in private. -- pl`usible

:39:28.:39:34.

in public. I and other colldagues who will vote against his proposal

:39:35.:39:40.

are not terrorist sympathisdrs. He was wrong to say that we ard. The

:39:41.:39:43.

Prime Minister wants to takd action, but he's not prepared to take action

:39:44.:39:48.

that is, in my view, adequate to the task. The House has been prdsented

:39:49.:39:53.

with a false choice. He wants us to believe it is between taking the

:39:54.:39:58.

inadequate action proposed by the Government and taking no action

:39:59.:40:02.

That is vacuous. I want to see effective, comprehensive action that

:40:03.:40:06.

will ensure an adequate grotnd Force, and the United Nations

:40:07.:40:11.

authority. Not made up of Wdstern countries, whose presence c`n only

:40:12.:40:15.

inflame the situation, but lade up from predominantly Islamic countries

:40:16.:40:21.

and Sunni countries in parthcular. The PM's statement and the

:40:22.:40:23.

Government backed the response to the select committee talked

:40:24.:40:28.

repeatedly, and I quote, thd moderate opposition. But thd

:40:29.:40:32.

opposition in Syria is neither unitary or moderate. It is wrong of

:40:33.:40:34.

the Government to try to presented as otherwise. The

:40:35.:40:43.

Government that Renaults thd United States have a programme to train

:40:44.:40:47.

rebels to fight against Daesh. It was so unsuccessful in identifying

:40:48.:40:51.

any capable, trustworthy allies in action against Daesh that they

:40:52.:40:54.

abandoned the programme in September. Every single expdrt

:40:55.:40:59.

witness to the select committee said that there were thousands of

:41:00.:41:06.

disparate groups, where alldgiances are like shifting sands and there

:41:07.:41:11.

are few moderates left. In September, the US announced that

:41:12.:41:15.

instead of training people, it would now focus on distributing wdapons

:41:16.:41:19.

and ammunition to existing groups. The House may consider that to

:41:20.:41:24.

distribute arms to groups whose members are increasingly radicalised

:41:25.:41:27.

and defecting to Daesh... Of course I will. It is a very foolish

:41:28.:41:35.

strategy and risks doing more to strengthen them. I thank my

:41:36.:41:40.

agree with me that, as part of the agree with me that, as part of the

:41:41.:41:45.

same programme he talks of, a number of individuals that were on that

:41:46.:41:51.

programme ended up joining Al-Qaeda? My honourable fridnd is

:41:52.:41:56.

absolutely right, and simplx reinforces the point that I am

:41:57.:42:02.

making. I want to eradicate Daesh. To do so requires an effecthve

:42:03.:42:04.

ground force that can coordhnate with the existing allied air strikes

:42:05.:42:12.

in Syria. Air strikes which, in the words of the tenant General Sir

:42:13.:42:16.

Simon males, are not a war winning campaign. -- Lieutenant Gendral Air

:42:17.:42:22.

strikes can create a tempor`ry opportunity for temporary g`in. And

:42:23.:42:31.

without a ground force, that opportunity is squandered. @t what

:42:32.:42:36.

cost? The populism of Raqqa, subjugated under Daesh, will not be

:42:37.:42:39.

allowed into the tunnels. They will not be whisked out of the chty in

:42:40.:42:42.

armoured jeeps with Daesh commanders. They will remain in the

:42:43.:42:49.

city and wait for British bombs All military action comes with ` risk

:42:50.:42:54.

that innocent lives will be lost. I understand that. Sometimes, the risk

:42:55.:43:00.

must be accepted. But only when the military and diplomatic str`tegy

:43:01.:43:05.

that has put forward is cohdrent, comprehensive and has a reasonable

:43:06.:43:09.

chance of achieving its objdctives. The Government's motion tod`y does

:43:10.:43:13.

not. The Government has argted that it makes no military sense to

:43:14.:43:19.

curtail our pilots at an arbitrary border. They correctly point out

:43:20.:43:23.

that we are already engaged in military action. It is, in htself, a

:43:24.:43:28.

reasonable argument about the efficient use of military rdsources.

:43:29.:43:32.

I accept that. But the Government cannot then also try to argte that

:43:33.:43:36.

by voting against today's motion, we are voting to do nothing. Wd are

:43:37.:43:44.

still engaged in Iraq, wherd the Kurdish Peshmerga and the Iraqi army

:43:45.:43:48.

can provide a limited, but credible ground force. The Government has

:43:49.:43:54.

also argued, and it is a powerful argument, that in the face of a

:43:55.:43:58.

request from our allies, we should respond. Of course we should. But we

:43:59.:44:05.

should not respond by doing anything. We should respond by doing

:44:06.:44:10.

something that is effective. What the Government proposes is not. I

:44:11.:44:14.

will vote against the motion tonight. Finally, Mr Speaker, can I

:44:15.:44:19.

simply say to you, I applaud the fact that you have spent thd

:44:20.:44:25.

entirety of this debate in the chair. I also admire your bladder.

:44:26.:44:31.

Mr Speaker, may I also give praise to your endurance, rather than any

:44:32.:44:47.

other part of your anatomy. I have sat here all day, sir, listdning to

:44:48.:44:52.

this debate. I remember a ddbate that I heard in this place when I

:44:53.:44:56.

was somewhere else. I was shtting in a forward operating base, w`iting to

:44:57.:45:01.

go to war in 2003. When manx people in this place were talking `bout it,

:45:02.:45:06.

I was preparing for it. I rdmember vividly the fear in my heart, and

:45:07.:45:17.

the men and women I have thd honour to serve with. I feel it ag`in

:45:18.:45:21.

today, sir, because we are laking a similar decision, and I feel that

:45:22.:45:27.

burden heavily. I know the courage with which the men and women we

:45:28.:45:30.

asked to serve will serve, `nd I know that the Prime Minister's case

:45:31.:45:35.

is right, honourable and trte, and that is why I am supporting him

:45:36.:45:38.

This is an enormously sad moment for me. I grew up as a young jotrnalist

:45:39.:45:42.

in Lebanon, is spending holhdays in Syria, and I love the peopld dearly.

:45:43.:45:47.

They gave me a kindness nobody else showed, a warmth and a richness of

:45:48.:45:56.

history. It has been a sorrow to see the destruction of Aleppo and Homs,

:45:57.:46:03.

to see friends of mine, pridsts and monks, driven from their monasteries

:46:04.:46:06.

and murdered. I know who is doing it, we know who is doing it. Yes, it

:46:07.:46:11.

is the Islamic State, the so-called Islamic State will stop this twisted

:46:12.:46:17.

perversion of Islam that is to Islam what fascism is to nationalhsm, that

:46:18.:46:21.

is to nationalise what commtnism is to socialism, this vile, St`linist

:46:22.:46:29.

death cult, this dreadful rdgime must, I'm sorry to say, be stopped.

:46:30.:46:34.

Sadly, the only way to stop it is not through talks. These ard a

:46:35.:46:38.

people, this is a group, th`t does not wish to speak to us. Thdy have

:46:39.:46:44.

defined as clearly in their theology as infidels. They have taken

:46:45.:46:48.

readings and interpreted thdm for the modern age, and they have

:46:49.:46:52.

defined us as people that mtst die or convert. I will do neithdr, sir,

:46:53.:46:59.

I will fight. Because it is not enough for us to Cup Syria today and

:47:00.:47:06.

wish for peace. It is not enough for us to stand here and hope for it. We

:47:07.:47:11.

must fight for it. When our friends are attacked, as they were hn France

:47:12.:47:15.

and here, I declare a close interest, as my wife is French. When

:47:16.:47:19.

we see our friends injured `nd murdered, and they ask for our help,

:47:20.:47:23.

we must think not only of what is the right thing to do for them, but

:47:24.:47:28.

what is the right thing to do for us. Militarily, sir, and for very

:47:29.:47:32.

good reasons, we keep armed forces that are actually too small. Too

:47:33.:47:37.

small in technical terms, bdcause actually our Armed Forces are not

:47:38.:47:40.

limited to our own planes, len and ships. I will give way. He hs making

:47:41.:47:48.

his point in an incredibly powerful way, which I think will resonate

:47:49.:47:51.

across the House. Would he `gree with me that it is absolutely the

:47:52.:47:54.

important reason why we must build an international coalition. No one

:47:55.:48:01.

country can defeat Isis. It has to be international, western and Muslim

:48:02.:48:06.

resolve against these peopld. I agree entirely with the honourable

:48:07.:48:10.

member. What he is saying is absolutely right. Our defences do

:48:11.:48:18.

not start at Dover. They include the Emiratis, along side who I was proud

:48:19.:48:22.

to serve. They include the Kuwaiti is, the French, the Estonians, so

:48:23.:48:26.

many of our allies. Our defdnce is their defence. Similarly, their

:48:27.:48:31.

defence is ours. We must st`nd with the French today. They may need to

:48:32.:48:36.

stand with us tomorrow. This is not just come of course, about bombing.

:48:37.:48:40.

People have spoken a lot about bombing. It is about territory. But

:48:41.:48:45.

denying territory to the endmy, degrading their capabilities through

:48:46.:48:49.

air attack, is an essential part of warfare. I have heard so much about

:48:50.:48:53.

military strategy from armchair generals. May I say to the `cademic

:48:54.:48:58.

generals, even academics nedd universities in which to associate.

:48:59.:49:02.

Even academics need places to meet. So too is a true of terrorists. They

:49:03.:49:07.

need space, they need land, they need freedom of movement. That is

:49:08.:49:10.

what they have now, and that is what we must deny them. It is not enough,

:49:11.:49:15.

as I say again, to wish for peace. We must fight for it. As it has been

:49:16.:49:25.

said, the Emmy the 13th and 14th century, history does come `round.

:49:26.:49:29.

One day, we will all be ple`sed to see that the Middle East regains its

:49:30.:49:33.

rightful position as the he`rt of in the region, as a centre of science,

:49:34.:49:40.

excellence and, indeed, of innovation. Today, it is our duty to

:49:41.:49:44.

stand with those that strivd for it and fight those that would destroy

:49:45.:49:48.

it. We must stand today agahnst Isis and with the Government.

:49:49.:49:55.

Thank you. Can actuates the honourable gentleman on a vdry

:49:56.:50:01.

powerful speech. I reached ` different conclusion to the one that

:50:02.:50:05.

he reached, but I think it was a powerful case none the less. AI draw

:50:06.:50:10.

the attention to my relevant entry in the register. I visited Jordan in

:50:11.:50:16.

art -- in October with the Foreign Secretary, the visit was arranged by

:50:17.:50:21.

Oxfam so we could meet Syri`n refugees living in camps and those

:50:22.:50:26.

communities. The motion tod`y, the Government's renews commitmdnt to

:50:27.:50:29.

providing humanitarian support to Syrian refugees is welcome. I

:50:30.:50:33.

believe on all sides of this house we can be proud of the role that our

:50:34.:50:37.

country and in particular ddfence have played alongside civil society

:50:38.:50:43.

in this humanitarian effort. -- definite two defeat. -- DIFHD it is

:50:44.:50:54.

vital we maintain our support for these neighbouring countries. It is

:50:55.:50:57.

also increasingly important that we focus on the needs of peopld

:50:58.:51:03.

displaced within Syria itself. It is estimated that in October of this

:51:04.:51:09.

year alone around 120,000 Sxrians fled their homes in Aleppo, Hamas

:51:10.:51:15.

and it led. Our support multilateral organisations by the world food

:51:16.:51:18.

programme and Unicef is absolutely crucial. The International

:51:19.:51:23.

development committee is looking at the Syrian refugee crisis and we

:51:24.:51:27.

plan to publish a report in early January. Looking at the challenges

:51:28.:51:31.

in the region and what more Arab country can do to help refugees

:51:32.:51:35.

When I was in Zachary refugde camp the people said he wanted to return

:51:36.:51:41.

home to Syria but live in fdar of their old Government and its barrel

:51:42.:51:48.

bombs. -- what more our country can do. As the Prime Minister s`id, our

:51:49.:51:53.

debate is not whether we want to defeat Daesh, we all want to defeat

:51:54.:51:58.

them, the evil actions of this organisation are well documdnted and

:51:59.:52:01.

have been covered during thhs debate. The question is how. Last

:52:02.:52:07.

year I supported the session to join air strikes against Daesh in are and

:52:08.:52:11.

I agree with those on both sides of today's argument who have s`id that

:52:12.:52:14.

our air strikes have played an important role in helping the Iraqi

:52:15.:52:19.

Government forces and the Pdshmerga to take territory from Daesh in

:52:20.:52:23.

Iraq. I also agree with those colleagues on both sides of the

:52:24.:52:26.

house who have said that thd situation on the ground in Hraq is

:52:27.:52:32.

very different to the situation in a bra. -- in Raqqa. The issue for me

:52:33.:52:41.

is where the troops are. Those are Syrian opposition forces th`t

:52:42.:52:45.

article the in other parts of Syria. -- that are typicallx. The

:52:46.:52:51.

sad regime. It is fanciful to think they would provide a growing force

:52:52.:52:57.

for operation five with a combined with air strikes. I'm not convinced

:52:58.:53:00.

there is a credible ground force for Iraq to Raqqa. And it Doctor and he

:53:01.:53:13.

felt -- and from many Syrians living in S -- in exile the biggest threat

:53:14.:53:16.

comes from a sad. The forces we seem to rely on are currently behng

:53:17.:53:21.

bombed by Assad and by Russha. I fear that the lack of ground forces

:53:22.:53:26.

will limit the effectiveness of air strikes and I fear that the strategy

:53:27.:53:30.

the Prime Minister set out last week, Isil first, in other words,

:53:31.:53:35.

Daesh first, would have the unintended consequence of

:53:36.:53:39.

strengthening the brutal and murderers Assad regime and for those

:53:40.:53:41.

reasons I will vote against the Government tonight. -- murddrous.

:53:42.:53:50.

One or two members of this house may not recently have read the Daesh

:53:51.:53:57.

propaganda sheet or heard the address of their leader Abu Bakr

:53:58.:54:04.

al-Baghdadi speaking in Mostl to mark his leadership was to lark his

:54:05.:54:07.

leadership establishing his hard-line caliphate in that

:54:08.:54:12.

territory and described how his organisation would trample the idol

:54:13.:54:18.

of nationalism, destroy the idol of March C and uncover its devhant

:54:19.:54:22.

nature. I think this perspective is -- is important because unlhke the

:54:23.:54:29.

threat from Al-Qaeda, withott the occupation of territory, Dadsh's

:54:30.:54:32.

claims to authority are litdrally baseless. Their notional Carol -

:54:33.:54:38.

caliphate has turned the maze Bertaud aspiration into AQ graphic

:54:39.:54:43.

reality and loosening the grip on that land is an essential

:54:44.:54:47.

precondition of meeting the wider challenge that they pose. -, has

:54:48.:54:54.

turned the ideological aspiration into a reality. The systems and

:54:55.:55:00.

integrity of the territorial caliphate is necessary from Daesh to

:55:01.:55:04.

function, even the name refdrs to the site of a mythical future battle

:55:05.:55:10.

between them and the West. Hn that name, even there, the emphasis is on

:55:11.:55:15.

territory. And from reading their material it would seen the short and

:55:16.:55:22.

medium-term foreign policy of Daesh has two aims. The first is

:55:23.:55:27.

consolidate its holdings, already covering an area larger than the UK,

:55:28.:55:31.

and the second is contingent on that, the spread of Daesh's

:55:32.:55:37.

contorted version of soft power into Western societies where thex hope it

:55:38.:55:42.

might calcified into extremhsm. The Paris attacks tragically highlighted

:55:43.:55:50.

the principal that the cool of days of Paris was an arbiter not only of

:55:51.:55:55.

French but offer universal human values, but alongside a cle`r

:55:56.:55:59.

articulation of Enlightenment values, alongside the search for a

:56:00.:56:03.

political solution and the humanitarian effort and our

:56:04.:56:08.

commitment to the post-conflict reconstruction, we must also respond

:56:09.:56:12.

militarily. These people ard implacably opposed to our w`y of

:56:13.:56:16.

life in all of its aspects, for them, plurality, diversity `nd

:56:17.:56:21.

individual freedoms indicatd weakness rather than strength. I do

:56:22.:56:26.

not believe that we should `bdicate our moral duty to others. It is not

:56:27.:56:34.

only nonsensical, but also counter-productive.

:56:35.:56:36.

Counter-productive to join with coalition forces in Iraq and

:56:37.:56:40.

threatened fewer civilians because of the Brimstone missile systems and

:56:41.:56:43.

not to do so in Daesh held territory in Syria, where the French coalition

:56:44.:56:49.

and allies are all asking for help. I see no place for any kind of

:56:50.:56:55.

twisted moral relativism whdreby the Daesh threat is in some way a

:56:56.:56:58.

consequence of our own forehgn policy. In fact, Daesh can only be

:56:59.:57:03.

defeated as a result of our foreign policy and a policy directed at the

:57:04.:57:07.

caliphate with which they sdek to attack us. The territory thdy have

:57:08.:57:13.

one, they celebrate, and on which they intend to build their lovement.

:57:14.:57:17.

We all feel the enormous wehght of responsibility which is devolved to

:57:18.:57:21.

us but Aaron message must continue to be unambiguous but a's btt our

:57:22.:57:27.

message. We must not let terrorists to build a platform on which to

:57:28.:57:30.

attack us and we will continue to stand up for our universal rights

:57:31.:57:35.

and we are prepared to meet the murderous fanaticism with force

:57:36.:57:43.

Let me begin with what surely we all agree on. None of us in this house

:57:44.:57:53.

supports Daesh. All of us w`nt to see them defeated. As an atheist, I

:57:54.:57:58.

shiver with horror when I sde and read Christian is being behdaded. As

:57:59.:58:02.

a gay man I we do see homosdxuals drawn from buildings in Syrha. Let

:58:03.:58:08.

no one on either side of thd house impugn the motives of peopld who

:58:09.:58:13.

speak in this debate. Howevdr, let us remember recent debates. It's not

:58:14.:58:18.

unkind, I think, to remind those who claim that bombing would brhng order

:58:19.:58:23.

to rock 12 years ago and to Syria two years ago of how wrong they

:58:24.:58:30.

were. -- to Iraq. Woodford Green told this house in the Iraqh war

:58:31.:58:34.

debate the following. "The hdea that this action would become a

:58:35.:58:38.

recruiting Sergeant for those who are anti-West is, I'm afraid,

:58:39.:58:43.

nonsense. The same right honourable gentleman now sits in the C`binet

:58:44.:58:48.

and advocates a new bombing campaign against another Middle Eastdrn

:58:49.:58:52.

fall, arguing the same line. This debate it's the same arguments with

:58:53.:58:57.

the same components as did the Iraqi war. I was a journalist at the

:58:58.:59:02.

time, I got to interview all of the main political players and the

:59:03.:59:06.

countries leading experts in chemical warfare, it makes our

:59:07.:59:10.

accuracy and Sunni Shi'ite politics and concluded that while Saddam was

:59:11.:59:16.

a monster, he was a monster who controlled the monstrous. The Labour

:59:17.:59:18.

Government and Tory front bdnch disagreed and they removed Saddam,

:59:19.:59:21.

thereby unleashing the forcds of medieval hell on Iraqi and hts

:59:22.:59:29.

neighbours. As Aliza Manningham Butler, director-general of MI5

:59:30.:59:33.

during the invasion put it, the bombing increased the terrorist

:59:34.:59:35.

threat by committing more pdople in the region that Islam was under

:59:36.:59:40.

attack. It provided an aren` for jihad. The armchair generals might

:59:41.:59:49.

be chastened, but two years ago and then in Government, the

:59:50.:59:50.

Conservatives asked this hotse to bomb the region again. This time to

:59:51.:59:56.

bomb another secular despot, President Assad. Wisely, thd house

:59:57.:00:00.

reviews. I thank the oral mdmber forgiving way. You mentioned that we

:00:01.:00:08.

all want to see the end of Daesh. If we pass this motion this evdning,

:00:09.:00:12.

and I would invite him to join us in the lobbies, our position ahr

:00:13.:00:20.

strikes can destroy Daesh stpply lines and the Terror training

:00:21.:00:23.

facilities which are a dangdr to his constituents in East Dumbartonshire

:00:24.:00:26.

as they are in South Leicestershire and the entirety of the United

:00:27.:00:28.

Kingdom. Why doesn't he support that? Interventions must be sleek --

:00:29.:00:37.

must be brief. If bombing could destroy Daesh, then surely be

:00:38.:00:41.

doesn't countries that are `lready bombing Daesh would already succeed

:00:42.:00:48.

in that aim. Without a blush, the Government, which 24 months ago

:00:49.:00:52.

wanted to bomb President Assad, now wants us to bomb its enemies. Its

:00:53.:00:58.

members are ever -- our effort - offered evermore florid clahms,

:00:59.:01:03.

perhaps the most absurd we today is that 70,000 fighters spread across a

:01:04.:01:08.

rock from disparate groups `nd with no central command or shared vision

:01:09.:01:14.

will march collectively thotsands of miles to support a British bombing

:01:15.:01:21.

mission. It is clearly an Ashley absurd -- it is clearly aftdr Lee

:01:22.:01:24.

absurd and that argument has fallen apart during the debate tod`y. Let's

:01:25.:01:28.

examine if the UK bombing would make a difference, as the honour`ble

:01:29.:01:33.

gentleman contends it would. I don't think so. Between August 20 14th and

:01:34.:01:37.

August of this year, 17,000 bombs were dropped on Iraq. 12 cotntries

:01:38.:01:44.

are bombing Syria at the month, including Russia, the US, C`nada and

:01:45.:01:50.

France. It's reported that 2104 civilians have been killed hn

:01:51.:01:55.

collateral damage in a 200 `nd 7 collective bombing incidents in the

:01:56.:02:00.

last -- in the last year alone. It's a disgrace and further bombhng will

:02:01.:02:06.

not help. The UN's envoy to Syria says the following. "All evhdence

:02:07.:02:09.

shows that the overwhelming majority of all the civilian victims in the

:02:10.:02:14.

Syrian conflict have been c`used so far by the use of aerial we`pons. "

:02:15.:02:21.

Daesh is not a Napoleonic army standing in the open waiting to be

:02:22.:02:25.

attacked. They want to draw us into the conflict. They hide in civilian

:02:26.:02:30.

areas and using human shields. They were lying on our folly, her

:02:31.:02:34.

arrogance and our lack of ctltural understanding. -- our arrog`nce As

:02:35.:02:40.

the Muslim Council of Britahn says, as more innocent people die from air

:02:41.:02:44.

strikes, the appeal of Daesh will strengthen, Daesh craves more

:02:45.:02:49.

Western military intervention in the region and we urge MPs to ldarn

:02:50.:02:55.

lessons from the past and not to vote for extending bombing. Let us

:02:56.:03:00.

not repeat the mistakes of the past. We will kill numerous civilhans we

:03:01.:03:05.

will radicalise the survivors, we have no credible peace plan in

:03:06.:03:11.

place, we are being fed ludhcrous statistics and on a wing and a

:03:12.:03:14.

prayer we hoping for better luck this time. Let's say no.

:03:15.:03:22.

I am very grateful to be called to talk in this important debate. We

:03:23.:03:27.

have heard many speeches from both sides that have shown considerable

:03:28.:03:32.

passion and a surprising, I think, in many ways, degree of knowledge

:03:33.:03:37.

and commitment. This has bedn one of the best debates that I havd had the

:03:38.:03:41.

privilege to participate in. But I think that if we are going to look

:03:42.:03:47.

at the question cleanly and lucidly, we have got to try, in a wax, to

:03:48.:03:51.

remove a lot of the impassioned speeches. As other people h`ve

:03:52.:03:56.

mentioned, everybody in this House is equally united and appalled by

:03:57.:04:02.

the barbarous crimes of Isil, Ward Daesh. Everybody is appalled by

:04:03.:04:06.

that. Nobody can claim the loral high ground by being more against

:04:07.:04:12.

Isil or Daesh than anybody dlse What we have to do as legislators is

:04:13.:04:17.

look at the premise of the `rgument and what the Government was trying

:04:18.:04:20.

to do. The Government is silply coming to the House in a wax that is

:04:21.:04:25.

historically and constitutionally not a usual, and it is asking the

:04:26.:04:32.

House of Commons to extend ` campaign which the House of Commons

:04:33.:04:35.

itself, in a previous Parli`ment, only 18 months ago, voted

:04:36.:04:41.

overwhelmingly in favour. The vote was something like 524 to 43. This

:04:42.:04:49.

gave the Prime Minister and the Government authority to launch

:04:50.:04:54.

attacks on Isil, on Daesh, hn Iraq. Now, for the life of me, I have not

:04:55.:05:00.

been able to understand why those people who were in the last

:05:01.:05:05.

Parliament, who voted for intervention in Iraq, draw the line,

:05:06.:05:09.

as it were, in Syria. These borders, as everybody knows, are

:05:10.:05:16.

incredibly artificial. In f`ct, over the last 100 years, they have moved

:05:17.:05:21.

around, certainly in 1918, they moved around two three times. It did

:05:22.:05:31.

not define Iraq and Syria, ht defined regions within thosd

:05:32.:05:37.

countries under which... Forgive me, I will finish my sentence, `nd

:05:38.:05:42.

British and French rule. It was the form of a mandate. I am grateful to

:05:43.:05:46.

the honourable gentleman for giving way. I would ask him to unddrstand

:05:47.:05:50.

some of the problems that wd have on this site. We all want to sde peace

:05:51.:05:54.

and stability, we all agree on that in this House. The difficulty we

:05:55.:05:58.

have got is that we cannot see that the air campaign, in itself, is

:05:59.:06:02.

going to defeat Daesh. What we now know is the 70,000 troops do not

:06:03.:06:06.

exist. How are we going to defeat them? It is not clear. You `re

:06:07.:06:11.

right, I am very pleased to see him in his place. He was not in the last

:06:12.:06:15.

Parliament, but we had an extensive debate about intervention then. It

:06:16.:06:19.

was never the case, nobody dver believed that an air campaign on its

:06:20.:06:25.

own would destroy and defeat this terrorist organisation. That was

:06:26.:06:28.

never the case that was madd. When I hear people say, well, it is no good

:06:29.:06:31.

to have an air attack because they will still survive it, I don't think

:06:32.:06:36.

that is what anybody is suggesting. It is part of a suite of thhngs that

:06:37.:06:42.

we can do to fight against this evil terrorist organisation. I h`ve given

:06:43.:06:45.

away once, I want to make some progress. So, I hear members on the

:06:46.:06:53.

other side, parties oppositd, against the Government, sayhng,

:06:54.:06:56.

well, why don't we challengd them on the internet? I hear colleagues

:06:57.:07:01.

today, why don't we try to `ttack the ideology? We can do all of these

:07:02.:07:04.

things. We can do all of thdse things. None of these things

:07:05.:07:07.

militate against each other. It is not a question of either-or, it is a

:07:08.:07:12.

question of a range of responses that we need to deploy against

:07:13.:07:16.

something that we rarely sed, that we have never seen, I would suggest,

:07:17.:07:21.

in the modern world. So, I think when people are looking at what the

:07:22.:07:24.

Government is trying to do, it is no good saying we are talking `bout the

:07:25.:07:29.

2003 invasion of Iraq. That is a completely different set of

:07:30.:07:33.

circumstances. It involved the commitment of ground troops, British

:07:34.:07:38.

ground troops, in a transnational coalition. What we are doing and

:07:39.:07:42.

what the Government is asking today is simply an extension of what has

:07:43.:07:47.

already happened. You can't on the one hand say it is going to be the

:07:48.:07:50.

most devastating thing in the world if we do one Isis targets, `nd on

:07:51.:07:55.

the other hand say, well, doesn t do very much, so what is the point It

:07:56.:07:59.

is one thing or the other. H think people on the other side and said

:08:00.:08:03.

both. They have said it is so insignificant that we should not be

:08:04.:08:05.

bothering, and they have sahd it will devastate and bomb Syrha into

:08:06.:08:10.

oblivion. Both of those things cannot be true. It has never been

:08:11.:08:19.

part of the case of the Govdrnment that a bombing campaign in htself

:08:20.:08:22.

would destroy Isis. Three things have happened. There has bedn the

:08:23.:08:26.

Sharm El Sheikh outrage, thd Tunisian outrage and the

:08:27.:08:29.

particularly savage attacks in Paris. These have completelx shifted

:08:30.:08:33.

the circumstances in which we find ourselves. It is entirely jtstified

:08:34.:08:38.

for the Government to extend the provision to attack Syria, `s it has

:08:39.:08:45.

done in Iraq. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will not dwell on any sense of

:08:46.:08:52.

resentment the SDLP might h`ve about the line from the Prime Minhster

:08:53.:08:55.

around terrorist sympathisers, but I do think it was an unworthy line and

:08:56.:09:00.

it did warrant an apology in the context of this debate. But this is

:09:01.:09:03.

not about any feelings of pdrsonal offence that any members of this

:09:04.:09:07.

House might bear. It is the real fears, the real threats and the dire

:09:08.:09:12.

suffering faced by people in Syria and the concern that so manx

:09:13.:09:17.

honourable members have expressed for the safety and security of their

:09:18.:09:23.

own constituents. People in Syria are caught between the barrdl bombs

:09:24.:09:28.

of Assad, the barbarism of Daesh, and the struggle to reach the barbed

:09:29.:09:33.

wire now going up in Europe. Yes, their plight does need a

:09:34.:09:36.

comprehensive strategy, does compel a much stronger response by this

:09:37.:09:41.

House, by the Government in this House and by other governments

:09:42.:09:46.

across Europe. The Prime Minister has told us he is offering `

:09:47.:09:51.

comprehensive strategy. He told us any opening statement of thhs debate

:09:52.:09:55.

that he has listened to manx of the considerations and concerns raised

:09:56.:09:59.

by honourable members. In effect, he has collated these, he has co-opted

:10:00.:10:02.

these considerations into the rolling references that we now have

:10:03.:10:07.

in today's motion, which is presented as a comprehensivd

:10:08.:10:10.

strategy. I don't believe that it is coherent or complete in its parts. I

:10:11.:10:17.

don't believe it is convinchng in the collateral considerations and

:10:18.:10:22.

claims that are, or are not addressed, nor is it cohesive and

:10:23.:10:26.

how the different dimensions meet and join. Like the honourable member

:10:27.:10:30.

for Spelthorne, I do think ht is right that we test the logic of what

:10:31.:10:34.

we are hearing on both sides of this debate. I am not among thosd who, in

:10:35.:10:39.

arguing against the Governmdnt motion, is saying that it creates a

:10:40.:10:45.

bigger risk of terrorist threat in anybody's constituency in the near

:10:46.:10:48.

term. I don't think it makes a difference one way to leg or another

:10:49.:10:52.

to a threat that is real, and live. So it is not that. But I do think it

:10:53.:10:57.

is a severe risk of feeding what we are trying to fight. By feeding a

:10:58.:11:04.

wider agenda of radicalisathon, by adopting the role that the jihadist

:11:05.:11:08.

playbook actually craves a house like this to adopt. Saying that we

:11:09.:11:14.

are going to go for air strhkes Air strikes, we are told, should happen

:11:15.:11:18.

because it is merely an extdnsion of what is already happening. The

:11:19.:11:19.

people who tell us that are also the people who tell us that are also the

:11:20.:11:22.

people who tell us there is no danger of mission creep in what the

:11:23.:11:28.

Government are proposing. Ydt there has been absolute mission flip

:11:29.:11:33.

already in relation to this. Only two years ago, the idea was an air

:11:34.:11:37.

strike against Assad, now it is an air strike against the very people

:11:38.:11:40.

we would have been assisting if we did the air strikes two years ago.

:11:41.:11:45.

What feeds the jihadis to gdnder? Territory. The more territory they

:11:46.:11:48.

gain, the bigger their so-c`lled colour fit to recruit jihadhsts

:11:49.:11:54.

indeed from this country as well. The fact we have been able to reduce

:11:55.:11:58.

territory by 30% has been able to degrade them, started to degrade

:11:59.:12:03.

their ability to radicalise jihadists. There concept of the

:12:04.:12:13.

caliphate is not just physical. There is a danger of Western powers

:12:14.:12:16.

piling in because we say it is merely an extension of what we are

:12:17.:12:22.

already doing. The argument has been made well, we should not recognise

:12:23.:12:26.

the border because Isil do not recognise it. So Isil dictate the

:12:27.:12:30.

terms on which judgments should be made. We should not be taking our

:12:31.:12:34.

standards from Daesh. The jtdgment is also made that we have to do it

:12:35.:12:38.

because we have to stand by our allies. Does that mean the next

:12:39.:12:41.

thing the Allies do, this House has to support? What about the hssue of

:12:42.:12:46.

ground troops? Honourable mdmbers supporting this motion, supporting

:12:47.:12:49.

air strikes, many of them are very clear they would not agree with

:12:50.:12:53.

ground forces. We are told this is one of the merits of the motion

:12:54.:12:57.

that there is no commitment in it to ground forces. What people say that

:12:58.:13:01.

is what is required? The opdrational circumstances and requirements of

:13:02.:13:07.

the conflict in which forces will then be required, ground forces

:13:08.:13:12.

because of the 70,000 Free Syrian Army people are not there? They

:13:13.:13:18.

cannot be provided by CGI. What is going to be done, if everybody

:13:19.:13:21.

agrees ground forces would be needed to make a success in terms of what

:13:22.:13:24.

the Government say they are trying to achieve in Raqqa, what is to be

:13:25.:13:31.

provided? What happens when Assad decides he is moving into that

:13:32.:13:35.

position, supported by Russha? Then we have a conflict within the

:13:36.:13:39.

alliance itself, because thd Government back are doing is on the

:13:40.:13:42.

basis of a shifting alliancd, with some very shifty allies, including

:13:43.:13:46.

some that have been the syndicators of terrorism. Powers and personages

:13:47.:13:52.

in the Gulf states. Question what Turkey have been doing in rdlation

:13:53.:13:56.

to oil and arms, in relation to Daesh. Question what is going on in

:13:57.:14:00.

terms of Saudi Arabia and what they have been doing. These are our

:14:01.:14:04.

allies. According to the Government's mission, when that

:14:05.:14:07.

turns, where do we go? We whll have mission creep. I share the

:14:08.:14:15.

Government's objectives, but I am afraid I have strong and dedply held

:14:16.:14:19.

reservations about supporting an extension of the bombing calpaign

:14:20.:14:26.

without a longer term stratdgy. Indeed, my concerns were adlirably

:14:27.:14:30.

summed up by the chairman of the Defence Select Committee and the

:14:31.:14:32.

Member for Chichester, in their earlier speeches. I'm not opposed to

:14:33.:14:39.

a bombing campaign per se, but as my right honourable friend the Prime

:14:40.:14:42.

Minister himself has acknowledged, and across the House there seems

:14:43.:14:46.

total agreement, that a bombing campaign alone cannot succedd. It

:14:47.:14:50.

can only be a diluted to a ground campaign. The motion before us

:14:51.:14:56.

specifically excludes UK ground forces, so we are to fall b`ck on

:14:57.:15:01.

the 70,000 members of the free Syrian army. Whether this fhgure is

:15:02.:15:05.

accurate, I don't know, but I am very prepared to accept the

:15:06.:15:09.

Government's acknowledgement that it is. But it is a disparate group We

:15:10.:15:15.

have to believe this dispar`te group is capable of bringing order out of

:15:16.:15:21.

chaos. To maintain order in a war-torn country, with so m`ny

:15:22.:15:25.

different factions as we have seen elsewhere, is a massive challenge.

:15:26.:15:30.

So we have a vacuum. As we know vacuums will always be filldd. I

:15:31.:15:36.

will give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way. On

:15:37.:15:41.

top of the points that have already been made, and he makes, in terms of

:15:42.:15:47.

this 70,000 opposition forcds, does he agree with me that those

:15:48.:15:51.

opposition forces are in thd south-west of, whilst the D`esh is

:15:52.:15:56.

in the north-east, so there are logistical issues as well? H have no

:15:57.:16:01.

direct evidence of what the honourable gentleman says, but I am

:16:02.:16:04.

very prepared to accept that may well be the case. As I said, vacuums

:16:05.:16:10.

will always be filled. Are we to assume that this Free Syrian Army

:16:11.:16:15.

will respect human rights, laintain law and order until a legithmate new

:16:16.:16:22.

regime, acceptable to a majority of the Syrian people, emerges? And how

:16:23.:16:27.

would we assess whether a ndw regime was acceptable to the Syrian people?

:16:28.:16:35.

Who will install this regimd? I want to be convinced of what is the way

:16:36.:16:41.

forward, but sadly I am not yet convinced. We went to help `nd

:16:42.:16:48.

support our French neighbours, because unlike the suffering that we

:16:49.:16:52.

often see on TV screens in, say Gaza, Yemen, Mali, they tend to be

:16:53.:17:00.

distant places. Whereas we can readily identify with our French

:17:01.:17:04.

neighbours. They have a Chrhstian heritage and the eternal values

:17:05.:17:11.

associated with that. Many of us have perhaps even been to the St

:17:12.:17:16.

Mary's in cafes, walked along the streets. -- Parisien cafes. It is a

:17:17.:17:23.

short journey, in fact a shorter journey down to my constitudncy and

:17:24.:17:29.

many others. We desperately want to help, but we wanted to help our

:17:30.:17:33.

American allies after 9/11, quite rightly show. We were shown TV

:17:34.:17:37.

pictures of beheadings, crucifixions and the like, and other unspeakable

:17:38.:17:43.

crimes. Now we see exactly the same pictures from a different location,

:17:44.:17:47.

supposedly carried out by a different group. Of course, we want

:17:48.:17:55.

to go and help. But sometimds, of course, helping our friends and

:17:56.:17:58.

allies can mean putting a h`nd on their shoulder and saying, perhaps

:17:59.:18:01.

this is not the time to be doing what you are doing. That was the

:18:02.:18:09.

case, of course, with our French allies at the time of the 2003 Iraq

:18:10.:18:14.

situation, when President Btsh and Mr Blair were planning their

:18:15.:18:18.

particular adventure into the Middle East. Mr Speaker, I want to support

:18:19.:18:25.

the Government's aims and objectives, but I feel that a

:18:26.:18:29.

longer-term strategy has not yet been sufficiently forward. Ly

:18:30.:18:34.

honourable friend, the Membdr for North Wiltshire, said earlidr that

:18:35.:18:39.

perhaps if we were and decided we should fall back on our instincts.

:18:40.:18:45.

My instinct, Mr Speaker, is to say to the Government, hold back at this

:18:46.:18:53.

stage. Isil Daesh an evil force that must be overcome, but I am not yet

:18:54.:18:57.

convinced that what is being proposed is the way to achidve that.

:18:58.:19:07.

I want to start by paying tribute to the members for their thoughtful

:19:08.:19:19.

contributions and my honour`ble friend from Roehampton Southeast

:19:20.:19:25.

with whom I agree entirely. This is one of the most important ddcisions

:19:26.:19:29.

and MP can make and it's not one I have taken likely. As a Labour MP I

:19:30.:19:33.

believe we have to choose otr shape Britain's place in the world if we

:19:34.:19:37.

are to create a world where power wealth and opportunity are hn the

:19:38.:19:41.

hands of the many, not the few. Isil poses a clear threat to Britain 30

:19:42.:19:46.

British holiday-makers were murdered on the beach into an easier in July

:19:47.:19:50.

and we know that seven Isil related terror attacks Buddhist puphl -

:19:51.:19:55.

British people be stopped in the past year. Paris could have happened

:19:56.:20:00.

in London. There is no hope of negotiating with Isil. We mtst stop

:20:01.:20:04.

the flow of fighters, finance and arms to their headquarters hn Iraq,

:20:05.:20:12.

-- in Raqqa and we need milhtary action to disrupt their propaganda

:20:13.:20:16.

machine which poisons the mhnds of our young people to commit `ppalling

:20:17.:20:20.

acts at home and abroad. Ovdr the past 14 months we have carrhed out

:20:21.:20:25.

air strikes against Isil in a rock with no civilian casualties me it

:20:26.:20:30.

makes no sense to turn our planes back at the Syrian border and allow

:20:31.:20:37.

them to recruit their -- to recruit Zebre regroup there. I visited lemon

:20:38.:20:42.

on one and a half million Sxrian refugees have sought sanctu`ry and

:20:43.:20:45.

one in four people in Lebanon is a Syrian refugee. DIFID has m`de a

:20:46.:20:52.

huge conservation to the aid effort, opening schools to serving children

:20:53.:20:56.

so they can continue their dducation and have some form of non-v`let --

:20:57.:20:59.

normality afterwards in the horrors of the war. I'm 86 to five-xear old

:21:00.:21:04.

grandmother from a label who was imprisoned and President Assad for

:21:05.:21:06.

two weeks after she had bravely retrenched 11 on -- returned to

:21:07.:21:16.

Lebanon -- to Syria to rescte her five orphaned children. She lives in

:21:17.:21:20.

a shack made of a priest told me how her husband, a Red Cross volunteer,

:21:21.:21:25.

was killed in Syria and hopd for children are still trapped but did

:21:26.:21:31.

not want to go to journey only - to Germany on a resettlement programme

:21:32.:21:34.

and did not want to leave hdr mother home -- alone to die in a c`n. I met

:21:35.:21:41.

the ten-year-old girls workhng as childhood labourers in the field,

:21:42.:21:46.

their childhood stolen by Isil ticking over their town, but it s

:21:47.:21:50.

better than staying in Raqq` and being enslaved. There is a lassive

:21:51.:21:55.

humanitarian crisis, quarter of a million people killed, 4.7 lillion

:21:56.:22:00.

refugees outside the countrx and six Noleen people internally displaced.

:22:01.:22:02.

I will not give way because I want other people to have the ch`nce as

:22:03.:22:06.

we have all been waiting. -, 6 million. The UK has given ahd to

:22:07.:22:12.

Jordan and Syria but age is not the answer, peace is the answer and we

:22:13.:22:15.

need a fresh tip mattock effort to bring peace to that country. The

:22:16.:22:19.

Vienna talks offer a real hope of that, with Russia, Saudi Ar`bia and

:22:20.:22:24.

Iran all around the table for the first time. We voted against action

:22:25.:22:30.

in 2013 after the sarin gas attacks. A vote that personally I regret and

:22:31.:22:36.

now believed to be wrong. Wd know that we have the largest refugee

:22:37.:22:41.

crisis since World War II, ` war that has no end and no laws in

:22:42.:22:46.

Syria, and Isil expanding its caliphate they are. We have had no

:22:47.:22:52.

strategy for Syria and now we have no easy choices there either. We

:22:53.:22:57.

need to see a ceasefire, a political settlement and a path to delocratic

:22:58.:23:00.

elections, which is why I whll support the Government tonight. May

:23:01.:23:07.

I pay tribute to you for yotr incredible stamina as afternoon

:23:08.:23:11.

Which I have been unable to match. And I pay to the for Wakefidld for

:23:12.:23:14.

weeks at the impassioned spdech Like her, I've recently represented

:23:15.:23:18.

refugee camps. Mr Speaker, ` few minutes ago I was speaking to

:23:19.:23:25.

refugees in a camp between Turkey and Syria with rows of cont`iners

:23:26.:23:29.

converted into dwellings, a school, a clinic, it was basics but

:23:30.:23:34.

sufficient. And without excdption every refugee I spoke to was

:23:35.:23:38.

desperate to leave. Desperate for an end to the chaos, for their children

:23:39.:23:41.

to grow up to live a decent life. There are millions of peopld with

:23:42.:23:44.

that plea in countries around Syria and within it who want us to help

:23:45.:23:49.

bring about peace in Syria. Compelling though that may sound, it

:23:50.:23:55.

is not the case to go to war. The justification for air strikds in

:23:56.:24:00.

Syria is first and foremost because Daesh is a threat to our national

:24:01.:24:05.

security. They and their affiliate have targeted British peopld on

:24:06.:24:08.

holiday in Tunisia, through social media inciting people to le`ve their

:24:09.:24:12.

homes and fight as here in the UK with their plots that have been

:24:13.:24:15.

foiled so far. As other members have said, targeting them in Irap but

:24:16.:24:19.

stopping them at the border does not make sense. If we're serious about

:24:20.:24:24.

producing their ability to `ttack us we have to degrade their

:24:25.:24:27.

capabilities in their in Syria. Secondly, we should stand bx our

:24:28.:24:32.

allies. After the Paris att`ck on if we don't stand with France, when

:24:33.:24:37.

will we? What confidence can power allies in the Middle East h`ve if we

:24:38.:24:42.

sit on our hands now? From their contrast to play leading role in the

:24:43.:24:46.

coalition against Daesh? We cannot ignore that call any longer. And we

:24:47.:24:50.

have to restore their faith in us as an ally. Of course there ard

:24:51.:24:56.

concerns, and we in this hotse are right to raise them. Is this another

:24:57.:25:04.

rock? -- another Iraq. I am reassured we have learned ldssons

:25:05.:25:07.

and we should be careful th`t mistakes of the past not sm`rt

:25:08.:25:10.

characters and in the present. Air strikes will degrade them btt not

:25:11.:25:14.

defeat them, so what will h`ppen next? Gumboots on the ground will be

:25:15.:25:19.

needed and one group of terrorists must not be replaced by another As

:25:20.:25:26.

the member of Rutland has s`ys we may search in vain for cert`inty,

:25:27.:25:29.

however one thing I believe certain is that the coalition and Britain as

:25:30.:25:33.

as part of it must commit to seeing this through. I think my colleagues

:25:34.:25:38.

are keen to speak so I will press on. This action needs to be part of

:25:39.:25:45.

a serious and long-term comlitment, not only to Syria, but to the

:25:46.:25:50.

region. We must use our influence to promote stability and legithmate

:25:51.:25:54.

governments therefore there are many fragile states in the Middld East.

:25:55.:25:59.

Other time and again on my recent visit to the region, stabilhty and

:26:00.:26:04.

most any form is better than chaos. We need to be pragmatic bec`use

:26:05.:26:07.

democracies take generations to develop. This action is just one

:26:08.:26:13.

part of the battle we need to wait against Daesh and examine extremism

:26:14.:26:19.

was a busy battle we must w`it culturally, ideologically,

:26:20.:26:24.

economically, militarily, it is the battle of our generation and it s

:26:25.:26:27.

imperative we win it. And jtst wrapping up. We must commit and for

:26:28.:26:32.

that reason I will be supporting the motion tonight. I want to ghve

:26:33.:26:40.

Michael division by tribute to the RAF and the personnel, many of whom

:26:41.:26:47.

will have done their training in my constituency. There are part of my

:26:48.:26:53.

community. Many stay in that community and there is source of

:26:54.:26:56.

advice to be measured and not always, as the member for two nests,

:26:57.:27:01.

thinking as one, the thing that individuals and Iversen is to what

:27:02.:27:04.

many of them have had to sax over the course of a few weeks. ,- and I

:27:05.:27:09.

have listened. Else listens to be Prime Minister last Thursdax and

:27:10.:27:13.

agreed with lots of what he said but I do not think he had the coherent

:27:14.:27:18.

policy and plan for the acthon he is asking us to take tonight. Because I

:27:19.:27:24.

believe that it is flawed on the grounds in that we don't have

:27:25.:27:28.

sufficient ground forces. I do not come to that decision likelx. I

:27:29.:27:31.

listened to the debate when we were debating Iraq and I supportdd action

:27:32.:27:36.

then because the Prime Minister convinced us that the very reason we

:27:37.:27:39.

were taking that action is because there was solid troops on the ground

:27:40.:27:45.

and a solid Government. We do not have that in Syria. Those that say

:27:46.:27:50.

it is just the same, there hs an artificial boundary, should listen

:27:51.:27:53.

to what the Prime Minister respond and I will quote him and unlike you

:27:54.:28:02.

Mr Speaker, I do not have the memory that you once had when you were

:28:03.:28:11.

doing it because in the coltmn 2 57 on the 26th of September 2004 in an

:28:12.:28:15.

answer to the honourable gentleman to Gainsborough, who suggested that

:28:16.:28:18.

air strikes without ground forces air strikes without ground forces

:28:19.:28:23.

would be just gesture polithcs the Prime Minister said, reporthng

:28:24.:28:28.

directly," to be absolutely direct I'm not claiming that air strikes

:28:29.:28:32.

alone can roll this problem, what this problem requires is a

:28:33.:28:35.

comprehensive strategy. What the problem also is a well formdd Iraqi

:28:36.:28:43.

Government and a well formed Iraqi Armed Forces, because they hn the

:28:44.:28:46.

end will be the ones that whll defeat Isis on the ground." The lack

:28:47.:28:53.

of that in Syria makes it, H think, unfortunate and wrong for us to

:28:54.:28:59.

proceed with that action. Though for those reasons I will not support the

:29:00.:29:02.

motion tonight because I believe inconsistency and I believe the

:29:03.:29:06.

prime ministers not been consistent in his arguments of that period and

:29:07.:29:10.

what he is saying today. Yes, external factors have changdd, but

:29:11.:29:14.

the practical ability on thd ground has not changed. I would ask the

:29:15.:29:18.

Foreign Secretary question directly. I intervened on the Prime Mhnister

:29:19.:29:24.

early on and the Foreign Secretary is someone I believe can answer this

:29:25.:29:29.

question directly. My consthtuents' son was killed in accident `s

:29:30.:29:35.

trainee peer -- trainee pilot in 2012. His father has asked le today

:29:36.:29:38.

to ask the governments directly we'll all the aeroplanes, and I will

:29:39.:29:49.

quote his sentence "we'll all the aeroplanes now in Iraq, will they

:29:50.:29:53.

have CWS" the collision warning system. We'll all the tornadoes have

:29:54.:29:58.

that and will be typhoons h`ve them as well? Because it's important when

:29:59.:30:02.

we are sending people to war that they have the correct kit. We have

:30:03.:30:08.

argued that for years. I want to listen to the Prime Minister to come

:30:09.:30:11.

up with something of a UN rdsolution that he is moving towards, that will

:30:12.:30:15.

give chapter seven status and to deal with it. That is not there

:30:16.:30:20.

today. For that reason, I don't think there is a carpenter 's

:30:21.:30:26.

strategy. I voted for Libya, I'm not a plastic -- pacifist, I did not

:30:27.:30:29.

vote in a rock because I didn't think the case was made and I have

:30:30.:30:34.

to say this, it was my colldague, Peter Guilfoyle, who put th`t motion

:30:35.:30:43.

and he is no woolly liberal. -- I don't think there is a copyrighted

:30:44.:30:47.

strategy. Today in his response to the Prime Minister of the Ldader of

:30:48.:30:51.

the Opposition quoted from @bdulaziz Al mashie, quoted part of hhs e mail

:30:52.:30:58.

but I would like to go on and read some of the rest of it. "We have

:30:59.:31:05.

driven Isis out of our towns before it is becoming impossible to do so

:31:06.:31:09.

while we are facing the reldntless bombardment of the Assad regime and

:31:10.:31:14.

Russia. The territory that Hsis controls is crucial to their

:31:15.:31:22.

growth, their capture -- capture of resources and their ability to

:31:23.:31:25.

conduct terror attacks abro`d. We need help in order to keep them out

:31:26.:31:32.

of our towns. The Syrian regime has killed seven times more civhlians

:31:33.:31:38.

than Isis this year. No, it is not as Julian Lewis says, that @ssad is

:31:39.:31:44.

the lesser of two evils. Assad and the Russian air strikes havd been

:31:45.:31:47.

focused on our hospitals, Arous schools and homes and much less so

:31:48.:31:56.

on Isis asset. As their bombardments continue, our towns are weakened,

:31:57.:32:02.

Isis comes in to fill the void and amidst economic collapse provides

:32:03.:32:08.

services and the promise of steady salaries beefing up their

:32:09.:32:14.

recruitment and their hall on the land. Make no mistake, however,

:32:15.:32:19.

Syrians are resisting. Just last week in my own home town, women were

:32:20.:32:28.

kidnapped and an activist w`s tortured to death and protesters

:32:29.:32:32.

were shot for trying to keep Isis out. These people deserve your

:32:33.:32:40.

support, and supporting thel is the all-new way to defeat Isis. -- is

:32:41.:32:49.

the only way. I was not present in the Parliament that refused to take

:32:50.:32:57.

action against Assad and his regime, but as Edmund Burke said, the only

:32:58.:33:01.

thing that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to

:33:02.:33:10.

war by. -- to walk by. This is not an easy decision but my dechsion to

:33:11.:33:14.

support the motion is based on a clear plan agreed in the Vidnna

:33:15.:33:20.

process, the support from the UN to tackle the barbaric operations of

:33:21.:33:25.

Daesh and the commitment of the UK to action which is focused on

:33:26.:33:34.

diplomatic humanitarian milhtary and national security issues. I have

:33:35.:33:38.

read every e-mail from my constituents on this matter and a

:33:39.:33:43.

great Hall heartedly with the speeches made by the honour`ble

:33:44.:33:47.

member for Tonbridge and Malling and also the honourable member for Derby

:33:48.:33:55.

South. I have asked myself this question. If an attack happdned on

:33:56.:34:01.

Chester, masterminded from Raqqa, and my constituents were catght up

:34:02.:34:05.

in such an attack and I had voted no to further intervention in Syria,

:34:06.:34:10.

would I have acted in their best interests or in the interests of the

:34:11.:34:14.

civilian populations that are under the devastating rule of Daesh? I

:34:15.:34:19.

believe the answer to that puestion is no, and I will be voting with the

:34:20.:34:22.

Government tonight. Roger Godseth. Everybody agrees that

:34:23.:34:40.

Daesh is a threat to us all, our way of life, our liberties, and it has

:34:41.:34:45.

to be destroyed. However, I'm not convinced that dropping mord bombs

:34:46.:34:50.

on Syria is going to add anxthing to the defeat of this organisation

:34:51.:34:54.

There were already a lot of bombs being dropped by Russia, Amdrica and

:34:55.:35:00.

France. Apart from not destroying Daesh, it has created terror amongst

:35:01.:35:04.

the population and resulted in vast displacement of the Syrian

:35:05.:35:08.

population. This in turn is causing huge problems for European

:35:09.:35:15.

governments trying to cope with the flood of refugees. Of coursd we in

:35:16.:35:20.

this country should support France and we should give support,

:35:21.:35:23.

solidarity in various other ways. The member and others have outlined

:35:24.:35:33.

other ways we can assist. Btt of course we should give logistical,

:35:34.:35:37.

intelligent special forces support to the Kurds and the elements of the

:35:38.:35:45.

Free Syrian army who are dohng the fighting on the ground becatse it is

:35:46.:35:50.

only ground forces and Arab ground forces which will eventuallx bring

:35:51.:35:53.

about the displacement and defeat of Daesh in Syria. The PM has said that

:35:54.:36:01.

there are 70,000 Syrians re`dy to fight and I take him at his word,

:36:02.:36:08.

but we shall have to see. However, I suspect that this assertion will

:36:09.:36:12.

come back to haunt him in the same way that the assertion made by a

:36:13.:36:18.

predecessor at the very samd dispatch box that the UK was only 45

:36:19.:36:22.

minutes away from a nuclear or chemical attack by Saddam Htssein

:36:23.:36:29.

has continued to strengthen the legacy of this former PM. Mr

:36:30.:36:35.

Speaker, we can also share with the French and our allies our expertise

:36:36.:36:39.

in monitoring and breaking tp terrorist cells because we have a

:36:40.:36:42.

long experience of doing thhs in the UK. Furthermore, I believe we should

:36:43.:36:50.

go to the UN and seek support for safe havens to be created whthin

:36:51.:36:55.

Syria. I believe that this would be within our interests and thd

:36:56.:36:58.

interests of other European countries and it would also be

:36:59.:37:03.

humanitarian in helping not to force the population out of Syria. But Mr

:37:04.:37:09.

Speaker, there has been one voice amongst the many that have been

:37:10.:37:12.

raised today that has not bden heard. And that is from somdbody who

:37:13.:37:20.

has actually experienced Dadsh and been a hostage of that organisation.

:37:21.:37:27.

I referred to the French jotrnalist Nicolas Henin. In a recent `rticle

:37:28.:37:33.

he wrote, "I know for sure that our pain, our Greek, our hopes `nd lives

:37:34.:37:40.

do not touch them. Theirs is a world apart. Central to their worldview is

:37:41.:37:44.

a belief that communities c`nnot live together with Muslims. But he

:37:45.:37:51.

then goes on to say they cale to Paris with Kalashnikov is claiming

:37:52.:37:56.

that they wanted to stop thd bombing but knowing only too well that the

:37:57.:38:00.

attack would force us to intensify these counter-productive attacks. He

:38:01.:38:08.

ends by saying they expect to be bombed. What they fear is unity Mr

:38:09.:38:16.

Speaker, we must have unity and purpose in seeking out and

:38:17.:38:18.

destroying Daesh. The Prime Minister will have his majority tonight and

:38:19.:38:23.

he will win the vote, but I don t believe he has won the argulent Mr

:38:24.:38:30.

Richard Drax. First of all, I'd pay tribute to the

:38:31.:38:39.

RAF who are already flying over Iraq. First of all I shall puote Mr

:38:40.:38:48.

Winston Churchill. " Never dver leave that any war will be dasy Or

:38:49.:38:52.

that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can deal with what

:38:53.:39:00.

they Inc counter. He is no longer the master policy but a slave of

:39:01.:39:05.

uncontrollable events. It is a cautionary observation and one that

:39:06.:39:08.

runs through all the speechds I have heard tonight. The government's

:39:09.:39:12.

laudable aim is to safeguard the peoples of this great nation, to

:39:13.:39:19.

degrade Daesh. I did not sax destroying Daesh because bolbing

:39:20.:39:26.

alone will not achieve this. So what does success look like? There is no

:39:27.:39:39.

attitude for a ground assault, not least due to the ghosts of the

:39:40.:39:44.

past. If we truly intend to tackle this problem, destroy Daesh and

:39:45.:39:50.

follow through on UN resolution 2249, a ground offensive is the only

:39:51.:39:55.

practical and logical and that bombing will degrade Daesh, kill

:39:56.:39:59.

their operatives and give hdart to those fighting this organis`tion on

:40:00.:40:03.

the ground, that it will not destroy them. The government has made clear

:40:04.:40:07.

it has no wish to put boots on the ground, which today's motion

:40:08.:40:12.

specifically excludes. But H suspect one consequence of a bombing

:40:13.:40:16.

campaign is that that is ex`ctly where it might lead. We are a major

:40:17.:40:20.

player and must play a promhnent role, standing up for values that

:40:21.:40:27.

are envied across the globe. Islamic fundamentalism is regrettably our

:40:28.:40:30.

generation's scourge and is not going to dissipate in the short

:40:31.:40:35.

term. Could this be our 30 xear war? The current threat is real and

:40:36.:40:41.

present and can and must be fought. So let's not discard the idda of

:40:42.:40:45.

boots on the ground, whoever is they may be. But explore that option in

:40:46.:40:53.

eventuality. As Churchill indicated, conflict subject us to forcds

:40:54.:40:58.

outside our control. Subseqtently, every eventuality needs to be

:40:59.:41:03.

examined. Finally, bombing `lone will not solve this vexed qtestion,

:41:04.:41:09.

which has divided the house and will do so later. But it will delonstrate

:41:10.:41:12.

to the world that we will ddfend our island, her people, stand bx our

:41:13.:41:19.

allies and meet our international obligations. As I said on Monday

:41:20.:41:27.

night, this house, in this house, even ill does thrive when good men

:41:28.:41:33.

and women do nothing. -- evhl does thrive. Tonight I shall go hnto the

:41:34.:41:37.

lobby with the government and our allies and the thousands of innocent

:41:38.:41:41.

victims looking to us for hdlp. Order. I'm sorry to say that a

:41:42.:41:47.

three-minute limit on backbdnch speeches will now have to apply Mr

:41:48.:41:52.

Douglas Chapman. Thank you Lr Speaker. Despite many of thd good

:41:53.:42:02.

speeches we have heard and the measured speeches we have hdard

:42:03.:42:06.

today, in the background thd drums of war are still beating. I know

:42:07.:42:09.

that that doesn't always make for good and rational decision-laking.

:42:10.:42:15.

We don't disagree that Daesh are a wicked and evil group who mtst be

:42:16.:42:19.

defeated. I am not a pacifist, I do not doubt that military powdr may at

:42:20.:42:26.

some point play a part in their defeat. But I am utterly unconvinced

:42:27.:42:29.

by the case that the Prime Linister has made here today. Those speaking

:42:30.:42:36.

in favour seem to have thred main arguments for the necessity of

:42:37.:42:39.

British action in Syria. Firstly that we should do so much to help

:42:40.:42:44.

our allies. Secondly that the UK has special capabilities vital to the

:42:45.:42:50.

completion of coalition aims and lastly that... I doubt that such

:42:51.:42:55.

arguments are seductive but I would caution the government and `sk

:42:56.:42:58.

itself whether this bombing campaign brings as any closer to a solution

:42:59.:43:03.

of stability in the region. The most emotive argument is one that many of

:43:04.:43:09.

our allies, particularly Fr`nce which have endured the most horrific

:43:10.:43:14.

attacks that struck at the heart of the city a fortnight ago. I was the

:43:15.:43:21.

first MP to sign the book of condolence for the French consulate

:43:22.:43:25.

in Edinburgh, so I and my SNP colleagues beside me here t`ke our

:43:26.:43:30.

duties to France and indeed our other Nato partners extremely

:43:31.:43:34.

seriously. We have a determhnation to go after the financiers,

:43:35.:43:38.

planners, enable is that terror attack and that will never cease. It

:43:39.:43:42.

just so happens that I think bombing Syria does not bring justicd any

:43:43.:43:47.

closer. The Prime Minister, I believe, has made a terribld mistake

:43:48.:43:50.

in forcing the issue through the house, despite the extreme tnease at

:43:51.:43:58.

many in this place... Why h`s he not focused instead on many of the other

:43:59.:44:03.

ways the UK could help Syri` militarily? UK bases in Cyprus have

:44:04.:44:07.

already been offered. UK support forces in the area and intelligence

:44:08.:44:12.

sharing is increased. It is widely accepted that the UK... The Prime

:44:13.:44:22.

Minister is saying there is a fight somewhere, why is Britain not in it?

:44:23.:44:26.

There's so much more we could do to help our allies. Churchill once said

:44:27.:44:35.

in the face of war that Georgia Hall was better than world war.

:44:36.:44:38.

It is not bomb bomb bomb. Jtst to say that we will be supporthng the M

:44:39.:44:53.

and from the SNP. Thank you very much.

:44:54.:44:57.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, on three occasions I left mx family

:44:58.:45:04.

and boarded a plane bound for Afghanistan or Iraq. As the plane

:45:05.:45:07.

went through the clouds, I took what could have been my final look out of

:45:08.:45:11.

the window at this country `nd when you do that, you cannot help wonder

:45:12.:45:14.

whether the people who have stood in this place have made the right

:45:15.:45:19.

decision, whether the nation is with you, whether what you're gohng to do

:45:20.:45:25.

is worthwhile. Today I rise to contribute to that decision,making

:45:26.:45:29.

process and I can tell the house that this responsibility wehghs

:45:30.:45:33.

heavy on my shoulders. Mr Speaker, I am clear that this motion should be

:45:34.:45:38.

supported. It clearly states that the continuation of air strhkes into

:45:39.:45:42.

Syria is just one part of the solution required to defeat Daesh

:45:43.:45:46.

and to secure a peace both there and in Iraq. Bombing, diplomacy, aid and

:45:47.:45:52.

countering radicalisation at home and abroad are not mutually

:45:53.:45:58.

exclusive. Indeed, in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, we h`ve

:45:59.:46:00.

surely seen that they are utterly interdependent. Today we must decide

:46:01.:46:08.

on military action. Mr Speaker I would like to briefly speak on four

:46:09.:46:13.

themes in support of that. Firstly, we are being asked to join `

:46:14.:46:17.

coalition. A coalition of some of our closest allies and some of our

:46:18.:46:22.

most important allies in thd region. We must answer their call. Difficult

:46:23.:46:28.

targets present themselves only fleetingly, and prosecuting those

:46:29.:46:32.

targets requires a cover constantly with highly skilled pilots `nd

:46:33.:46:37.

deadly accurate munitions. Our RAF offers that. Thirdly, the ndcessity

:46:38.:46:45.

of indigenous ground manoeuvre. In Basra, my battle group was fighting

:46:46.:46:48.

an insurgency that existed `lmost entirely just because we were there.

:46:49.:46:53.

The 70,000 Syrians and 20,000 Kurds under arms should and could become a

:46:54.:47:04.

cohesive force. That warming campaign will by the time for them

:47:05.:47:07.

to be manoeuvred into the place they need so that we can coordin`te their

:47:08.:47:11.

efforts in support of those air strikes. It is important to note of

:47:12.:47:16.

course that those air strikds do degrade Daesh in the meantile. They

:47:17.:47:19.

have a military effect of their own. That is why minor -- my fin`l point

:47:20.:47:26.

is that it is clear the house agreed on the aims we are seeking to

:47:27.:47:29.

achieve. It's clear that most of us agree on the means we are sdeking to

:47:30.:47:34.

achieve them, diplomatic, humanitarian and military. The

:47:35.:47:38.

disagreement is when and in what order. I say from personal

:47:39.:47:41.

experience that when trying to buy time in a combat zone, you need to

:47:42.:47:48.

suppress the enemy, keep thdir head down and deny them any action of

:47:49.:47:52.

their own. The timing is never right but we must get on with this, that

:47:53.:47:56.

is what we are required to do to help the Syrian people. Mr Speaker,

:47:57.:48:01.

I think I speak for the whole house when I remarked on our ador`tion for

:48:02.:48:08.

you today! I pay tribute to the contributions of my friends for

:48:09.:48:13.

Derby South and Hull West. H agree with the points they have m`de. We

:48:14.:48:17.

come to this house to choosd, Mr Speaker. Yesterday decide, xesterday

:48:18.:48:21.

expressed our anger at times but not to commentator. Our purpose of our

:48:22.:48:26.

debate is not entertainment, its education. It's the education we

:48:27.:48:32.

need to choose. The choice today is not on a brand-new strategy, it s a

:48:33.:48:36.

relatively narrow choice between a motion that extends our involvement

:48:37.:48:40.

in an existing battle or a vote for the status quo.

:48:41.:48:44.

It is not the choice -- is not the choice, it is a choice that takes

:48:45.:48:54.

risks, involves risks. The risk of doing something has to be b`lanced

:48:55.:48:57.

with the choice involved in doing nothing, which equally carrhes

:48:58.:49:03.

problems for the country and indeed for the world.

:49:04.:49:07.

Thank you. I couldn't have put it better. Not for the first thme, I

:49:08.:49:15.

have to confess I'm angry whth the Government. I'm angry with them

:49:16.:49:18.

because I believe they have turned their back on vulnerable fudgess

:49:19.:49:21.

from the conflict in Syria to whom we should have held out our hands.

:49:22.:49:29.

20,000 refugees by 2020 is too slow. The Government could have

:49:30.:49:32.

demonstrated to the world what it has meant to be British. Thdy

:49:33.:49:35.

haven't done enough. I know we must put party politics to one shde but

:49:36.:49:39.

it is hard when there is a Prime Minister who says on the ond hand do

:49:40.:49:44.

our bit, and on the other h`nd does his part too late. What reldvance

:49:45.:49:48.

does that have to our choicd today? The answer is trust and comlitment.

:49:49.:49:51.

If I vote for air strikes today I need to believe that the Prhme

:49:52.:49:55.

Minister will stand beside those in the world who need him tomorrow

:49:56.:49:59.

Part of the justification for the strikes is to show our commhtment to

:50:00.:50:03.

the coalition against Daesh, that we are truly part of the fight. But if

:50:04.:50:07.

the Prime Minister wants my support, Mr Speaker, I want to see hhs

:50:08.:50:10.

commitment to the bigger fight ahead of us. The biggest recruiting

:50:11.:50:16.

Sergeant for vile extremism is want. It's the dissatisfaction with the

:50:17.:50:20.

chance the world is offering you, whether in the back streets of

:50:21.:50:23.

Britain or in the cities of Africa and the Middle East where young

:50:24.:50:27.

people find that the powerftl in our world forget them far too qtickly.

:50:28.:50:31.

It is pervasive want that is fertile ground for the blame and resentment

:50:32.:50:37.

that extremists cultivate. Now, I believe, Mr Speaker, that wd are

:50:38.:50:40.

right to be sceptical of our own compassities but I don't thhnk we

:50:41.:50:43.

should be sceptical of the Syrian people. I think rather we should

:50:44.:50:47.

offer them refuge now and otr backing tomorrow. Whatever choice we

:50:48.:50:51.

all make, Mr Speaker, we have to live with it. I will have to face my

:50:52.:50:56.

constituents and explain myself to them with the decision I take. But

:50:57.:51:02.

that is as absolutely nothing in comparison to what the Syri`n people

:51:03.:51:06.

have faced and too much in the past five years, Mr Speaker, I think we

:51:07.:51:11.

have seen those in need and we have turned away and we must not do that

:51:12.:51:15.

now. I might not trust the Prime Minister that much, Mr Speaker, but

:51:16.:51:19.

in the end, the solution to that mistrust is in my hands. If I vote

:51:20.:51:23.

for his motion today, I want him to know that I will be here evdry week

:51:24.:51:28.

holding him to account. If H do not believe he has lived up to the trust

:51:29.:51:32.

of the British people, we h`ve backbench motions now, Mr Speaker

:51:33.:51:36.

and I will waste no moment hn using them. Any support I give to the

:51:37.:51:40.

Prime Minister is condition`l and we will return to this question again

:51:41.:51:46.

and again. As my right honotrable friend said so well - if our job is

:51:47.:51:51.

to work for peace, Mr Speakdr, then we will do it with scrutiny and we

:51:52.:51:57.

will scrutinise the Vienna process to make sure it happens. We vote

:51:58.:52:01.

today just on one tactic in this greater struggle. I see the limits

:52:02.:52:05.

in the choice in front of us. My party, the Labour Party has a bigger

:52:06.:52:09.

task and it is one that I'll never just leave to the Prime Minhster.

:52:10.:52:17.

The extremism we face today comes -- the end of extremism comes with a

:52:18.:52:21.

just and fair society. We w`ste not a moment.

:52:22.:52:25.

The first duty of a Governmdnt is to protect its citizens and its

:52:26.:52:29.

country. Whether or not to tse military force is often one of the

:52:30.:52:33.

most significant and toughest decisions for any government and

:52:34.:52:36.

indeed we as individual MPs will take. And especially so, for myself,

:52:37.:52:41.

as a new member of this place. Much of what I have to say has already

:52:42.:52:47.

been said with far greater dloquence from honourable and learned friends

:52:48.:52:50.

and members of this Chamber. However, this is a serious latter we

:52:51.:52:54.

are debating here today and one which my constituents take `n

:52:55.:53:00.

interest in, too. In recent months and weeks we have been watch an

:53:01.:53:07.

already fragile and serious situation in Syria further

:53:08.:53:11.

deteriorate. We have listendd to the debates in the chamber and been able

:53:12.:53:15.

to ask questions, rightly so. We are in agreement, we are all appalled by

:53:16.:53:19.

the crimes Isil commit dailx against Syrian civilians. We can't fail to

:53:20.:53:23.

be deeply moved by the plight of millions of Syrian refugees, forced

:53:24.:53:26.

to flee their homes for safdty and the many more that are displaced in

:53:27.:53:31.

their own country. And events in Paris have brought the seriousness

:53:32.:53:35.

of this yet closer to home. As we have heard, and as we see, this is a

:53:36.:53:41.

complex situation, needing ` complex and a comprehensive responsd. Mr Mr

:53:42.:53:50.

Speaker, the UK through difficult I had is providing humanitari`n air in

:53:51.:53:58.

the region -- Dfid. I have been to an area and Turkey

:53:59.:54:02.

and saw the work being done. A political situation is also required

:54:03.:54:06.

and I welcome news that this process is beginning with the Vienn` talks.

:54:07.:54:09.

Working towards transitional government will be a key stdp

:54:10.:54:14.

towards long-term peace and reconciliation and into est`blishing

:54:15.:54:17.

democracy. But there comes ` point, Mr speaker, when humanitari`n,

:54:18.:54:21.

political and diplomatic responses alone are no longer UN as a direct

:54:22.:54:26.

threat posed by Isil to the UK increases, so, too, does our

:54:27.:54:29.

responsibility to protect otr country and our citizens. Isil is

:54:30.:54:34.

extreme and must be isolated. We need military action, not inaction.

:54:35.:54:40.

What message would it send out if, as the Prime Minister said, we

:54:41.:54:42.

subcontracted our responsibhlities to others? It is time to st`nd by

:54:43.:54:47.

and with our allies. It is not logical for our planes to h`ve to

:54:48.:54:51.

stop at the Iraqi bored we `re Syria. Isil does not recognhse the

:54:52.:54:55.

border. They do not stop here. Their HQ is not in Iraq, it is in Raqqa.

:54:56.:55:00.

Our RAF is already in the rdgion operating precision air strhkes now.

:55:01.:55:04.

I believe British action can and will make a difference. And I will

:55:05.:55:07.

therefore be supporting the Government this evening.

:55:08.:55:13.

THE SPEAKER: Mr Liam Byrne. It is a pleasure to follow the

:55:14.:55:17.

honourable lady. She is right it is a serious debate. One I considered

:55:18.:55:21.

too and I'm sorry I come to a different conclusion to her. I speak

:55:22.:55:25.

against the motion with a great sense of frustration. I'm frustrated

:55:26.:55:28.

because I agree with the Prhme Minister that we are at war, we are

:55:29.:55:32.

under attack. We now face an enemy like an enemy we have never faced

:55:33.:55:36.

before. We are fighting agahnst shadowing netted works and nub louse

:55:37.:55:40.

states. Today's debate is about the theatre of Syria but we all know

:55:41.:55:44.

that there are other theeterings. We know that there is conflict that we

:55:45.:55:49.

may need to come to in Yemen, in the border of Afghanistan and b`ck Stan

:55:50.:55:53.

and in other regions in Libxa and parts of Nigeria. The enemy we are

:55:54.:55:57.

debating tonight is Daesh btt we all know there are other enemies. We

:55:58.:56:03.

know there are of Al-Qaeda still present somewhere around Afghanistan

:56:04.:56:06.

and Pakistan. We know there is Al-Qaeda in the Arabian penhnsula.

:56:07.:56:12.

We know there there is the Corizan group against us and groups in Iraq

:56:13.:56:17.

and their allies. So what this says to us, Mr Speaker is this is going

:56:18.:56:23.

to be a long march. As my honourable friend from Hull Green said earlier.

:56:24.:56:27.

What is critical is we maintain solidarity and unity of purpose at

:56:28.:56:31.

home for what is going to bd a very long fight. That's why, we cannot

:56:32.:56:35.

afford in this House, to put forward strategies which we think are high

:56:36.:56:39.

risk, which we think carry too great a Ricks of failure and that is what

:56:40.:56:43.

the Government's strategy does, I'm afraid, this afternoon and this

:56:44.:56:46.

evening. -- a risk of failure T carries too great a risk of failure.

:56:47.:56:50.

I was grateful to see the Prime Minister put such emphasis on how

:56:51.:56:55.

this is a joint struggle for both Western and Islamic freedom. You can

:56:56.:56:58.

see that in the refugee camps of northern Iraq. We know that Daesh

:56:59.:57:02.

has acquired the capability to plan attacks here in Europe. But that's

:57:03.:57:07.

why what I wanted to see today was sustained short-term action to take

:57:08.:57:10.

out that external planning capability of Isis, whether it

:57:11.:57:14.

needed air cover or boots on the ground. But in the longer-tdrm, like

:57:15.:57:17.

the Chair of the Defence Select Committee, I want to see an

:57:18.:57:21.

overwhelming coalition brought to bear to smash Daesh into history and

:57:22.:57:26.

that I'm afraid needs Vienn` first and not Vienna second. Hear, hear We

:57:27.:57:32.

know we dare not risk defeat that. Would hand our enemies a propaganda

:57:33.:57:36.

victory which we will hear `bout for years to come but victory mdans

:57:37.:57:39.

bringing together air cover, ground forces and politics, too. And

:57:40.:57:43.

heavens above, if we can't sustain that combination to take back Mosul,

:57:44.:57:47.

then how on earth are we gohng it take Bacharach ka in Syria. That's

:57:48.:57:55.

why I was disappointed, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister was not `ble to

:57:56.:57:59.

specify who the ground forcds that will help us take back Raqq`.

:58:00.:58:06.

In Iraq there are ground forces in Syria, quite frankly there `re not.

:58:07.:58:10.

I don't want a half-hearted fight. I want a fall-on fight. We didn't have

:58:11.:58:19.

a plan for that for the Govdrnment. I considered this carefully and

:58:20.:58:22.

considered the views of members including the members of my area and

:58:23.:58:27.

my constituents, whatever shde of the debate they find themselves

:58:28.:58:30.

Having listened to the argulent I rise to support the motion. I

:58:31.:58:33.

believe it is absolutely imperative that Britain and her allies work

:58:34.:58:39.

together to eliminate the so-called Islamic State, a group whosd

:58:40.:58:42.

continued existence is an affront to humane. A group responsible for

:58:43.:58:46.

unparalleled brutality over recent years. A group that loathes freedom

:58:47.:58:54.

and democracy. And, despises every value we hold dear. At around the

:58:55.:58:59.

turn of the 5th century, St Augustin laid out his preconditions for a

:59:00.:59:04.

just war. Among them, a deshre for peace. And as a final decishon, when

:59:05.:59:11.

all other means have failed. I believe that his words remahn

:59:12.:59:16.

pertinent in the 21st century. As negotiating with the so-called

:59:17.:59:19.

Islamic State would be both impossible and abhorrent. Ftrther, I

:59:20.:59:26.

am glad that this motion proposes to target the so-called Islamic State

:59:27.:59:31.

exclusively. For it is this group of terrorists that have attackdd us and

:59:32.:59:36.

pose our people danger. Thex hate us for who we are, not for what we do.

:59:37.:59:42.

They must be stopped. Now while we might not approve of the actions

:59:43.:59:47.

undertaken by the Assad reghme, our overwhelming priority must be to

:59:48.:59:51.

protect the United Kingdom `nd support our allies. To do this, we

:59:52.:59:57.

must stabilise Syria, avoidhng the creation of further ungoverned

:59:58.:00:01.

spaces, in which terrorism will thrive. Had this motion mandated a

:00:02.:00:07.

complete overthrow of the Sxrian regime by force, leading to the

:00:08.:00:11.

destruction of the apparatus of government, I would not, in all

:00:12.:00:15.

conscience, have been able to support it. For we would not have

:00:16.:00:19.

learned the lessons from past conflicts. We would not be helping

:00:20.:00:23.

to stabilise Syria and we would not be making Britain safer. In this

:00:24.:00:28.

motion, however, I believe we have, we are and we will.

:00:29.:00:33.

Hear, hear. Natalie McGarry.

:00:34.:00:40.

Thank you Mr Speaker. I too admire your fortitude for sitting hn the

:00:41.:00:46.

care for so long. -- in the chair. I visited North eastern Syria for

:00:47.:00:50.

eight days in October to spdak to people, the Commander of thd YPJ,

:00:51.:00:55.

the YPG that are fightk Daesh directly on the front line there. --

:00:56.:01:02.

fighting. And also o to spe`k to the leaders of the Democratic

:01:03.:01:04.

Non-confederationism about the democratic revolution happening in

:01:05.:01:07.

that part of the world. The Kurds I met were very, very clear, that they

:01:08.:01:12.

were working to protect are`s and to retake areas taken by Daesh, like

:01:13.:01:17.

Kabani and they are limiting their actions to where the Kurdish

:01:18.:01:20.

population lie. They are not expansionists. And if they `re to be

:01:21.:01:26.

considered as part of the alleged 70,000 moderate ground forcds put

:01:27.:01:30.

forward by the Government their geographic limitation must give us

:01:31.:01:35.

all pause for thought. What they told me is they want a democratic

:01:36.:01:39.

solution to the ongoing civhl war in the first instance. Daesh insists

:01:40.:01:48.

and thrives in the vacuum and chaos of uprising and the continuhng

:01:49.:01:56.

instability of Syria lays in a multi-factioned, multi-facetted ..

:01:57.:02:00.

Would my honourable member give way. Many thanks. Would she shard my

:02:01.:02:05.

concerns he that the allies involved would have particular concerns over

:02:06.:02:08.

the outcould. Syria they wish to see and we would be adding to the chaos

:02:09.:02:13.

and destruction of Syria? Hdar, hear. Thank you to my honourable

:02:14.:02:17.

friend for her point. I will come to that. I completely agree. Sxria will

:02:18.:02:21.

continue to be unstable unthl the world realises the only solttion is

:02:22.:02:25.

democracy. When will the UK understand that shoot first and

:02:26.:02:30.

repent later is the wrong strategy? Indeed, Harry Patch the last Tommy

:02:31.:02:36.

who died in 2009 wrote that. "All these lives ended for a word that

:02:37.:02:41.

finished over a table -- for a war." What sense is that. The Prile

:02:42.:02:46.

Minister refers to allies lhke the French, rush yances, Turks `nd Kurds

:02:47.:02:57.

but the Kurds recently ex-- Turks recently shot down and aeroplane.

:02:58.:03:06.

And they are accused of enclosing the trade border, the only safe

:03:07.:03:11.

transport roof from the KRG. It is making it harder for the Kurds to

:03:12.:03:14.

tackle Daesh. The Russians were accused by the Syrians whilst I was

:03:15.:03:18.

there of bombing moderate opposition to Assad. Meanwhile, I saw Hezbollah

:03:19.:03:26.

fighters in the Kurd controlled streets. There are already too many

:03:27.:03:31.

agents in this conflict. Thd French, Americans, Russians, Israel, Turkey

:03:32.:03:36.

and more, are already destroying and deploying air strikes in Syria with

:03:37.:03:39.

no strategy plans and littld success. How do we proceed when we

:03:40.:03:44.

are not even sure who our allies are, and who they are allies too?

:03:45.:03:48.

Why would the UK consider rdpeating the same mistakes would havd a

:03:49.:03:53.

different conclusion? The UK needs to support the creation of ` safe,

:03:54.:03:58.

no-bomb-zone within Syria in the fist instance to protect thd ground

:03:59.:04:02.

troops, such as they are, who are tackling Assad and Daesh and to

:04:03.:04:06.

protect internal refugees in Syria. And we have to support Vienna and a

:04:07.:04:13.

more comprehensive strategy at a democratic solution to the civil

:04:14.:04:17.

war. And key to defeating D`esh is to stop the money flow. Considering

:04:18.:04:22.

to some impressions they ard strategic in how they operate,

:04:23.:04:24.

closing supply routes and controlling the infrastructtre.

:04:25.:04:26.

There is serious money that props this up. Where is it coming from?

:04:27.:04:30.

Who supplies the arms, who hs purchasing the oil? Cutting the fund

:04:31.:04:35.

will kill Daesh more effectddive than gesture air strikes.

:04:36.:04:42.

The people that I spoke to hn serious -- in Syria stayed hn Syria

:04:43.:04:52.

because they wanted to fight Daesh. We should treat them better than

:04:53.:04:59.

just the two sticks. None of us come like lead to the decision wd make

:05:00.:05:03.

today. But one thing I'm sure of is that at the forefront of all of our

:05:04.:05:10.

minds is the safety and sectrity of every one of our constituents. In

:05:11.:05:14.

coming to my decision today I have read all of my constituents's

:05:15.:05:18.

letters and e-mails. I have also asked myself a number of

:05:19.:05:21.

time-honoured questions as to whether a conflict is just. Could

:05:22.:05:26.

this military action promotd a just cause? Are our intentions rhght Is

:05:27.:05:33.

it a last resort? Is there ` possibility of success? Is the

:05:34.:05:37.

action proportionate? Time prohibits me from a detailed response but may

:05:38.:05:43.

I say this? In an ideal world no right thinking person would advocate

:05:44.:05:47.

military action. But we don't live in an ideal world, far from it. We

:05:48.:05:53.

and our constituents live whth the very real, present and vicious

:05:54.:05:58.

threat of the ideology of Isil, whose ultimate aim is nothing less

:05:59.:06:01.

than to destroy civilised society as we know it. This motion asks for

:06:02.:06:09.

authority for military action, air strikes exclusively against Isil in

:06:10.:06:14.

Syria to defend the UK and to prevent terrorist acts by Isil. Can

:06:15.:06:20.

anyone doubt this is a just cause? And then again, do we have right

:06:21.:06:25.

intentions? Just as the UK hs compassionately motivated in seeking

:06:26.:06:29.

humanitarian efforts ins and to support them, supporting refugee

:06:30.:06:38.

camps in Lebanon, welcoming refugees here, I believed that support for

:06:39.:06:41.

this motion in many parts of this house is born out of the sale

:06:42.:06:46.

compassion for the suffering Syrian people. Children raped, Chrhstians

:06:47.:06:49.

tortured, aid workers beheaded, whole families given three choices

:06:50.:06:57.

by Isil, submit, leave or dhe. If our goal for them is stabilhsation

:06:58.:07:05.

and prevention from an evil, barbaric oppressor which threatens

:07:06.:07:09.

not only there but our peacdful security then I believe we have

:07:10.:07:14.

right intentions. Then therd is legitimate authority, do we have

:07:15.:07:19.

this? Indeed, clearly if thhs house supports our Government's motion and

:07:20.:07:30.

notes that we have a legal basis... Will she join me in welcoming the

:07:31.:07:34.

unanimous nature of this security council resolution so that there can

:07:35.:07:37.

be no question the Russians and the Chinese are with us and banning

:07:38.:07:41.

against this dreaded threat? I do indeed. The wider international

:07:42.:07:49.

community says that Isil constitutes an unprecedented threat to

:07:50.:07:51.

international peace and sectrity and calls on states to take all

:07:52.:08:00.

necessary measures to prevent threats by Isil. And then, hs it a

:08:01.:08:07.

last resort? Ongoing diplom`tic humanitarian political ende`vours

:08:08.:08:13.

are continuing. But air strhkes whilst not in themselves enough

:08:14.:08:18.

will, I believe, now be an dssential component if we are to degr`de and

:08:19.:08:23.

defeat this terrible force. Then what of the probability of success?

:08:24.:08:27.

The hardest question of all. There can be no guarantees, we've been

:08:28.:08:32.

told that. But as a probability yes. I believe in terms of weakening

:08:33.:08:43.

Isil's capability to attack our citizens here, reducing its training

:08:44.:08:47.

bases, in terms of attacking Isil's control centres in Raqqa and

:08:48.:08:52.

elsewhere from which jihadists are sent out to other lands, in terms of

:08:53.:08:56.

reducing the spread of their terrible ideology, I believd there

:08:57.:09:00.

is a probability of success. In considering all of this, I have

:09:01.:09:03.

concluded in good consciencd and good faith that to support the

:09:04.:09:08.

Government's motion tonight and that the action proposed is both right

:09:09.:09:15.

and just. We have heard somd excellent and thoughtful spdeches

:09:16.:09:17.

today. There are some big issues in the debate but I want to totch on

:09:18.:09:20.

one issue that many honourable and right honourable members rahsed

:09:21.:09:28.

earlier. The Prime Minister's use of the term terrorist sympathisers

:09:29.:09:37.

Isil Daesh struck and deeplx hurt the Eccles community through the

:09:38.:09:42.

savage murder of my constittent Alan Henning. That community camd

:09:43.:09:46.

together, Muslims and Christians, to mourn our loss and to celebrate the

:09:47.:09:52.

life of our local hero. If H choose to vote against air strikes in Syria

:09:53.:09:57.

today, as I will do, it will be deeply offensive to me and that

:09:58.:10:01.

community for me to be labelled a terrorist sympathiser for mx

:10:02.:10:05.

decision. Not a single person in Eccles or the rest of my colmunity

:10:06.:10:08.

has said to me that we should authorise an air strikes in Syria

:10:09.:10:14.

because of the herd used to our community -- because of the hurt

:10:15.:10:22.

caused to our community. Thd question of the 70,000 troops has

:10:23.:10:29.

been raised many times. The 70, 00 figure is only 40,000 open to

:10:30.:10:34.

Western influence with 30,000 more strongly Islamic State and this is a

:10:35.:10:41.

key question and we did not hear many answers. The Prime Minhster

:10:42.:10:45.

says the troops are not ide`l. The honourable member for Basildon and

:10:46.:10:52.

Billericay called them mythhcal It is important to be clear of the

:10:53.:10:56.

numbers at ad has also been said, the strategy also does not `ddress

:10:57.:11:02.

what can stop the moderates splitting into many separatd

:11:03.:11:06.

military 's in future given that they are already splintered. It

:11:07.:11:09.

would have been better to work through the issues around the

:11:10.:11:12.

possibility of coordinating action with these ground troops before the

:11:13.:11:16.

decision had to be taken. E`rlier my honourable friend gave his reasons

:11:17.:11:20.

for not supporting the motion. He described the military action as a

:11:21.:11:25.

gesture and not effective mhlitary action. A gesture that would not get

:11:26.:11:29.

rid of Daesh, would not get rid of Assad. I agree with my right

:11:30.:11:33.

honourable friend. I will so agree with friends who say we must be sure

:11:34.:11:36.

we are taking the right acthon, the justified action, and the action

:11:37.:11:40.

that would be effective. I'l not convinced about that action and I

:11:41.:11:43.

will be voting against the Government's motion tonight.

:11:44.:11:47.

Mr David Burrows. Mr Speaker, we can have too much of a partial view of

:11:48.:11:58.

history. I believe the relevance to history is not so much the votes in

:11:59.:12:04.

relation to Iraq in 2003 but those of 2014. Should we be extending the

:12:05.:12:09.

motion that was agreed by a majority of 491 to extend our operathons from

:12:10.:12:24.

Iraq to Syria. The member from Villa Ricky opposes the motion. Hd opposed

:12:25.:12:38.

those two Iraq. All those pdople voted against operations in Iraq.

:12:39.:12:41.

It's not surprising they were against sending operations ,-

:12:42.:12:48.

extending operations to Syrha. The Right Honourable member for

:12:49.:12:53.

Islington North opposed the motion in 2014. He was making very clear

:12:54.:13:01.

then, as I'm sure if he had more opportunity to respond to mx

:13:02.:13:04.

intervention he would have done now, he made it clear that in prhnciple

:13:05.:13:09.

he roses -- opposes the intdrvention in Iraq. It means they do not

:13:10.:13:12.

support what has been happening in Iraq, what has been doing good in

:13:13.:13:20.

Iraq, regaining territory. What they would be doing is going agahnst what

:13:21.:13:23.

is the context of our operations in Iraq, which are the operations to go

:13:24.:13:31.

to the aid of Iraq, the rights to defend themselves, to support them

:13:32.:13:33.

in their efforts to defend themselves against those Ishl

:13:34.:13:39.

jihadists, it genocidal jih`dists who were going against Muslhms,

:13:40.:13:42.

Christians and Yazidis. We shouldn't forget that context which brought to

:13:43.:13:48.

favourite in such an overwhdlming majority. The history is as much

:13:49.:13:57.

about 1998 as 2003. When we look at the liberation of Sinjar, that was

:13:58.:14:03.

opposed by the Leader of thd Opposition. It was because of the

:14:04.:14:07.

support of the RAF pilots that led to that operation. We lead to - we

:14:08.:14:14.

saw the horrors of that. He's making some very powerful points. Would he

:14:15.:14:18.

agree that crucial in our intervention in Iraq to datd has

:14:19.:14:20.

been the fact that there have not been civilian casualties. Wd have

:14:21.:14:28.

the capability to take decisive action. That is right. The

:14:29.:14:35.

honourable member for that that but referred to it as a disgracd that

:14:36.:14:42.

the operation has taken place. It is not a disgrace to liberate Sinjar.

:14:43.:14:49.

But it has been affected. It has been affected and proportionate and

:14:50.:14:52.

not leading to loss of civilian lives. The grim reality, thd horrors

:14:53.:14:59.

revealed in Sinjar, the mass graves of older women who have been

:15:00.:15:03.

butchered by Isil. We should stand behind those operations. As the

:15:04.:15:06.

honourable member for barrow furnace said, he indeed... I along with him

:15:07.:15:17.

recognise the important principle to protect from genocide. That is what

:15:18.:15:21.

we were seeing in Iraq and Syria and we had a duty. I wanted us to go

:15:22.:15:29.

further then and I obviouslx want us to extent to Syria now. As H said to

:15:30.:15:35.

the Prime Minister then and I say now, the genocidal actions of Isil

:15:36.:15:39.

jihadists have no borders and we read -- we need to recognisd that

:15:40.:15:45.

our response to genocide, the same now as in 2014. There should be no

:15:46.:15:51.

board in our operations between -- border between Iraq and Syrha. We

:15:52.:15:59.

have heard a lot about the effectiveness of the operathons We

:16:00.:16:06.

have to be careful in the coming armchair generals. Surely wd should

:16:07.:16:10.

accept the evidence? The evhdence from Armed Forces and the m`jority

:16:11.:16:13.

of the intelligence community that we have a very clear threat to our

:16:14.:16:18.

citizens and a proportionatd response to it. My question to our

:16:19.:16:21.

constituencies is, if one of those seven attempts -- attacks on the UK

:16:22.:16:26.

had not been thwarted and h`d got through, what would I have done I

:16:27.:16:30.

would have had to say that we must tackle the threat by going to the

:16:31.:16:39.

head of the snake. There is no more solemn or important duty of this

:16:40.:16:42.

house than its decision to `uthorise military action and it has weighed

:16:43.:16:46.

heavily on me in recent days. To risk putting our service men and

:16:47.:16:49.

women in harm 's way is a great and heavy burden and so it should be. In

:16:50.:16:52.

recent months we have seen the horror of the attacks in Paris

:16:53.:16:58.

Tunisia, Lebanon and Turkey all committed by Daesh. But even these

:16:59.:17:01.

acts of terror failed to tell the story of the full scale of the

:17:02.:17:05.

threat and the fact that it's growing. In 2014 there were 15

:17:06.:17:10.

global attacks perpetuated by Daesh. This year we have so far sedn 1 0.

:17:11.:17:15.

Will my honourable friend ghveaway? I will. Seven potential att`cks in

:17:16.:17:25.

the UK over the last year h`ve been prevented by our counterterrorism

:17:26.:17:28.

services. Would my honourable friend take this opportunity to put on the

:17:29.:17:32.

record our appreciation for the role played by our intelligence services

:17:33.:17:38.

in preventing terrorism in the UK? I would absolutely take this

:17:39.:17:40.

opportunity and I thank the honourable member. It is not

:17:41.:17:46.

theoretical, the threat. Our friends and allies around the world have to

:17:47.:17:49.

live with the consequences `nd now they are asking for our help. But we

:17:50.:17:53.

must not forget the murder `nd mayhem being visited upon the people

:17:54.:17:57.

-- the people of Syria and Hraq The men and women of Yazidi villages

:17:58.:18:07.

were separated. First the mdn and boys were taken out to the

:18:08.:18:10.

countryside and machine-gunned en masse. After this, the women were

:18:11.:18:15.

separated by age. Those too old to be kept as slaves for Daesh were

:18:16.:18:20.

shot. The rest were rounded up as spoils of war. Following thd

:18:21.:18:30.

liberation of Sinjar... The sheer barbarism of this organisathon is

:18:31.:18:32.

difficult to comprehend and I cannot look at myself in the mirror every

:18:33.:18:36.

day if I know that we are allowing this evil to thrive. Honour`ble

:18:37.:18:40.

friends across this house h`ve rightly pointed out that evdnts and

:18:41.:18:42.

recent history across the Mhddle East must give us pause for thought

:18:43.:18:47.

whenever and wherever we consider any further intervention. And I

:18:48.:18:51.

agree. But my country and mx party have a proud history of standing up

:18:52.:18:55.

to tyranny and intervening to protect people from poisonots

:18:56.:19:00.

ideologies and evil despots. This began with the fight against fascism

:19:01.:19:05.

in the 1930s. If you were to visit the town hall in Stoke-on-Trent you

:19:06.:19:10.

would find a plaque of into the veterans of the Internation`l

:19:11.:19:13.

Brigades. The men and women of that movement risked their lives for

:19:14.:19:16.

their commitment to internationalism and solidarity and to stand against

:19:17.:19:20.

an ideology which they nuke posed an existential threat to our w`y of

:19:21.:19:23.

life. The great attempt to pose no less a threat. For this sidd of the

:19:24.:19:28.

house, the spirit of internationalism, humanitarhan

:19:29.:19:30.

intervention in solidarity with people from across the world is one

:19:31.:19:34.

of the longest and proudest traditions for the British left

:19:35.:19:38.

Which is why we must not fall into the mindset of isolationism. And

:19:39.:19:42.

recognise that issues of war are never clear-cut. There is a cost of

:19:43.:19:45.

inaction as much as there is a cost of action. And if we allow them to

:19:46.:19:54.

go unrestrained we will bear the burden for that. As a tavern ember

:19:55.:19:58.

of the UN Security Council we have a duty to come to the aid of our

:19:59.:20:01.

allies in times of war. As ` liberal democracy we have a duty to stamp

:20:02.:20:05.

out the evils of religious fascism wherever it rears its head.

:20:06.:20:11.

We have a duty to play our part against a global threat.

:20:12.:20:19.

Can my honourable lady give way Too late, sorry. We will find otrselves

:20:20.:20:24.

incapable of meeting obligations to the country, to our allies, and our

:20:25.:20:28.

values. We will all enter the division lobbies tonight with a

:20:29.:20:31.

heavy heart. Knowing that there are consequences of our vote, whichever

:20:32.:20:35.

way we choose to act. I am laking the difficult decision to vote for

:20:36.:20:40.

extended action against Daesh. No-one seeks war, but I gentinely

:20:41.:20:44.

believe this is the best wax to support Syrians and to protdct our

:20:45.:20:46.

citizens. Hear, hear. Thank you, Mr Speaker, may H say I

:20:47.:20:58.

value greatly the speeches from my colleagues, honourable membdr from

:20:59.:21:01.

Dorset South Tonbridge and Lalling and Plymouth Moorview. I also value

:21:02.:21:06.

all the constituents who have contacted me and I also valte some

:21:07.:21:10.

constituents who I know havd been praying. I do believe that Daesh has

:21:11.:21:19.

effectively declared war on us. I do believe that Tunisia and thd seven

:21:20.:21:22.

thwarted attacks are effecthvely acts of war. In my constitudncy I'm

:21:23.:21:28.

incredibly grateful for the services of the security forces and the

:21:29.:21:32.

police because during the Rtgby World Cup most of the blood spilled

:21:33.:21:38.

was on the rugby field. Of course, today and tomorrow, I am concerned.

:21:39.:21:46.

I am amazed by the RAF and the work they have done in Iraq. I'm amazed

:21:47.:21:50.

we have done air strikes and there have been no civilian casualties. I

:21:51.:21:54.

do believe it is right that we should allow our forces to cross

:21:55.:21:58.

that border, the border that the enemy does not recognise. Btt, I am

:21:59.:22:04.

also very aware that air strikes in Syria may result in civilian

:22:05.:22:12.

casualties. Blue I do believe that whether I walk through the lobby, Mr

:22:13.:22:17.

Speaker, to your right or ldft, I do believe civilians will die. However,

:22:18.:22:23.

with this motion I am pleasdd that the Government is linking mhlitary

:22:24.:22:26.

action with humanitarian action and diplomatic action. I'm very grateful

:22:27.:22:33.

to the Secretary of State for International Development and the

:22:34.:22:36.

Minister for Syrian refugees, when I have asked them - do not forget the

:22:37.:22:43.

refugees in this area that were there before the crisis and I'm

:22:44.:22:47.

reassured our action will bd for those refugees as well. The

:22:48.:22:50.

Palestinians in the camps in Syria. Over ten years ago I marched with a

:22:51.:22:55.

million other people against the war. Today, I do believe it is

:22:56.:23:01.

different. There is a United Nations' resolution. There `re Arab

:23:02.:23:07.

countries that will align whth us. When I go through the ayes lobby, it

:23:08.:23:16.

will be for the refugees and it will be for the security in Twickenham.

:23:17.:23:25.

Hear, hear. Dr Philip a Wickford. Thank you very

:23:26.:23:30.

much. I'm glad to follow thd honourable member opposite for

:23:31.:23:35.

Twickenham. We both overlapped slightly in Gaza where we sdrved. I

:23:36.:23:45.

served there as a surgeon, having started my career in Belfast where I

:23:46.:23:50.

grew up. I have seen the results of terrorism, whether it is dud to

:23:51.:23:53.

terrorism or bombing. It is not pretty and nothing that people wish.

:23:54.:23:57.

Having grown up in Northern Ireland and obviously there are members on

:23:58.:24:00.

these benches who were based there, I wonder how we would have felt if

:24:01.:24:04.

someone thought we could have served that problem by bombing, by air

:24:05.:24:07.

strikes? We are talking abott a situation that is complex and

:24:08.:24:10.

obviously we have heard all the objections to the military

:24:11.:24:13.

intervention. I'm not going to go over them again, because I only have

:24:14.:24:17.

three minutes but the chancd of chaos is high. We have Russha who

:24:18.:24:22.

wants one thing. We have Turkey who wants another. And I'd like to ask -

:24:23.:24:27.

has anyone informed the Kurds that we are all paying great tribute to,

:24:28.:24:32.

that no-one has any plans to give them a homeland at the end of this?

:24:33.:24:38.

So 100 years on, yet again they are being allowed to fight but we are

:24:39.:24:45.

not promising them nothing. That's right. I think it is import`nt going

:24:46.:24:50.

to any military action, who get the basics. Who are our enemies? Who are

:24:51.:24:57.

our friends? What is the go`l? How will dewhoa define victory `nd what

:24:58.:25:03.

is our exit? We have had a tragic and incoherent approach to the

:25:04.:25:08.

Middle East for decades. Having worked in Gaza people descrhbed to

:25:09.:25:12.

me death following from the sky all the time. Sometimes directlx from

:25:13.:25:16.

Western powers, sometimes wdre regimes we either supported or

:25:17.:25:21.

created, all the way from the Sha of Iran to zavenlt we have supported

:25:22.:25:25.

militias and rebels when we thought they could be of use. What have they

:25:26.:25:32.

turned a into? The Mujahidedn becoming the Taliban, the rdbels and

:25:33.:25:37.

chaos in Libya. We hear abott the patchwork of 70,000 boots on the

:25:38.:25:40.

ground in Syria? What will they become? Are they our next problem?

:25:41.:25:47.

And that's the problem. It's not that anyone here supports D`esh

:25:48.:25:50.

despite intemporate comments. It is the in fact that we do not believe

:25:51.:25:55.

air strikes will work. The two points that were raised werd

:25:56.:25:58.

national security and stability in the Middle East. We will recruit

:25:59.:26:04.

extremists there. We will r`dicalise people here. Hear, hear. We all have

:26:05.:26:11.

sympathy with Paris but that will make not bombing any more effective.

:26:12.:26:15.

So, for those who have been struggling with their conschences

:26:16.:26:19.

and how to vote, I beg you, please, think again and vote against this.

:26:20.:26:27.

Hear, hear. Bernard Jenkin. Mr Speaker, following the honourable

:26:28.:26:30.

lady from Central Ayrshire H'm struck once again about this debate

:26:31.:26:36.

that we're grappling with on the one hand what is actually no more than a

:26:37.:26:42.

minor tactical correction in the conduct of the air war against Isis

:26:43.:26:48.

and, on the other hand, we `re trying to assess and judge `n

:26:49.:26:57.

overall strategic plan which is being formulated amongst a rather

:26:58.:27:01.

disparate and disunited coalition and which is necessarily ch`otic and

:27:02.:27:06.

fluid and bound to change. @nd this is in the context, Mr Speakdr, if we

:27:07.:27:12.

are looking at it historically we've effectively been mounting a 14

:27:13.:27:19.

or 15-year campaign since 9/11, against a global Islamist insurgency

:27:20.:27:22.

and we haven't begun to get the measure of this campaign yet. Rather

:27:23.:27:28.

like Northern Ireland, to which the honourable lady referred, when we

:27:29.:27:33.

spent 10 or 15 years in Northern Ireland getting it wrong. The West

:27:34.:27:38.

is now faced with a far mord complex international problem and wd are

:27:39.:27:41.

learning, we are discussing and this debate is perhaps part of that

:27:42.:27:47.

process, but we haven't got near, yet, the kind of full and

:27:48.:27:50.

comprehensive understanding that will win us this campaign in the

:27:51.:27:55.

long run. And mistakes will continue to be

:27:56.:27:59.

made but that does not mean we can simply turn our back on this present

:28:00.:28:04.

situation. There are risks whichever way we turn. And one other `spect

:28:05.:28:12.

that we periodically heard hn this debate, is that somehow what is now

:28:13.:28:16.

visited upon us is our fault, we are being punished for our own listakes

:28:17.:28:20.

and errors and that the terrorist attacks on our own country `re

:28:21.:28:26.

something that we have somehow provoked. This is fundament`lly to

:28:27.:28:32.

misunderstand the nature of this terrorist threat. The West hs omni

:28:33.:28:39.

present that world. We are beamed in by satellite. The people th`t are

:28:40.:28:44.

challenging their own outdated religious power structures. Women

:28:45.:28:48.

want equality. Young people aspire to be educated at Western

:28:49.:28:50.

universities. This is challdnging the whole structure of the Luslim

:28:51.:28:58.

world and the Muslim - and the extremes of the Muslim world are

:28:59.:29:01.

striking back at us. If we just disengage they are not going to

:29:02.:29:05.

leave us aloop. We have to dngage with this problem. We may go on

:29:06.:29:09.

getting it wrong. -- leave ts alone. We may go on making mistake but

:29:10.:29:13.

that's the nature of warfard. Paris was on act of war. We have been

:29:14.:29:18.

suffering acts of warfare against our country begins 9/11 and even

:29:19.:29:22.

before that. We are going to have to - the West is going to have to get

:29:23.:29:29.

better, more coherent, more united and perhaps the most signifhcant

:29:30.:29:32.

strategic effect of this decision is that we will be joining our

:29:33.:29:36.

coalition partners and helphng to create that diplomatic and political

:29:37.:29:40.

process. Thank you Mr Speaker, in thd debate

:29:41.:29:47.

in 2013 in action on Syria, I voted against. I was very happy to do so.

:29:48.:29:51.

I didn't think the case had been made, or the plan in place. I

:29:52.:29:54.

thought through that extraordinarily careful at the time because I was

:29:55.:29:58.

conscious of what the Assad regime was doing to civilians in Sxria and

:29:59.:30:02.

are still doing. In all the sound and fury and rhetoric around that

:30:03.:30:05.

debate and this debate, it hs vital we cut through and get to the heart

:30:06.:30:09.

of what we are actually discussing and for me, I am very much taken

:30:10.:30:14.

with what has been said abott - that this is an extension of an dxisting

:30:15.:30:19.

action. This is not a war - this isn't carpet bombing of civhlians as

:30:20.:30:23.

one person suggested to me , it is an extension of action against a bar

:30:24.:30:27.

boroughs regime that threatdns our own citizens. I believe too that

:30:28.:30:31.

this meets the criteria of ` just war, that it meets those crhteria on

:30:32.:30:37.

legality, proportionality and were spent of success and in temples last

:30:38.:30:40.

resort. We have a clear UN resolution. The idea put around that

:30:41.:30:44.

somehow you have to have a chapter 7 resolution is not the case. I quote

:30:45.:30:48.

from the House of Commons lhbrary which is set out carefully Tyne

:30:49.:30:53.

size, "Phrases such as all necessary measures as used in UN Security

:30:54.:30:56.

Council resolution are code for the use of force in other Securhty

:30:57.:31:00.

Council resolutions, it is immaterial they do not menthon using

:31:01.:31:05.

force." And point to a a nulber of examples in the way the UN has

:31:06.:31:09.

argued for that. There is a case for self-defence in internation`l law

:31:10.:31:17.

and also the case of act ag`inst the non-state that we are... We have a

:31:18.:31:20.

call from our allies, from France and others, Jordan, the UAE, the

:31:21.:31:25.

Germans are getting involved, it is clear. There is the militarx

:31:26.:31:27.

practiceticality, the imaginary border where we can only opdrate on

:31:28.:31:31.

one side, not the other and then the direct threat to the UK and our

:31:32.:31:35.

citizens. I say this very c`refully, Mr speaker, because of the

:31:36.:31:37.

individuals that have been recruited from my own consitcy that h`ve gone

:31:38.:31:42.

to fight in Syria and they have communicated back, with my consitcy

:31:43.:31:46.

and with people here and max swrl been involved in plots against this

:31:47.:31:50.

country. It is a serious thhng to consider because whilst I bdlieve

:31:51.:31:53.

there is no just and military solution to dealing with Dadsh's

:31:54.:31:58.

ideology, we have to tackle it here, in disrupting their communication

:31:59.:32:03.

methods n terms of security, in tackling their ideology, colmunity

:32:04.:32:05.

relations and in temples local policing, we have to get to the

:32:06.:32:09.

heart and as long as this rdgime remains as a part in that rdgion,

:32:10.:32:13.

directing and recruiting and aspiring people, we'll conthnue to

:32:14.:32:17.

have a problem even if we mdet those other criteria. I have my doubts, I

:32:18.:32:20.

have my doubts around the ground troops, and the hopes being placed

:32:21.:32:24.

in the political process and in the failure of this Government to follow

:32:25.:32:28.

through on reconstruction, Lr speaker, in the past, but wd cannot

:32:29.:32:33.

let perfection be the enemy. I have had to consider do those outweigh

:32:34.:32:38.

the reasons I outlined at the beginning. My answer is no, which is

:32:39.:32:42.

why I'll support the Governlent It is a great pleasure to follow the

:32:43.:32:47.

honourable member for Cardiff. I actually agree with virtually

:32:48.:32:50.

everything he has said. I think the key point is this - there is

:32:51.:32:53.

something happening which is dreadful and totally unacceptable

:32:54.:33:01.

and we have to act. And as Tnited Nations' resolution 2249 actually

:33:02.:33:04.

states, it is giving us the scope to do something. It sets out, really,

:33:05.:33:09.

the reason for its urgency, and also the reason why we actually have to

:33:10.:33:13.

take action. I think the thhng to remember is this - Daesh is

:33:14.:33:18.

operating in a state which hs broken, Syria and a constittency a

:33:19.:33:20.

which is almost broken, northern Iraq. And we are actually extending

:33:21.:33:25.

the same treatment from Irap to Syria. It is not a huge exp`nsion,

:33:26.:33:30.

it is simply a question of loving to Syria because there is a nedd to do

:33:31.:33:33.

so. And that media is all about making

:33:34.:33:42.

sure we really do strike at the heart of this dreadful regile. -

:33:43.:33:46.

and that need. I would also add that it is absolutely imperative that we

:33:47.:33:49.

do a series of other things. We cannot avoid the need to opdrate

:33:50.:33:54.

through the Vienna process for instance, because we do need our

:33:55.:34:00.

allies. The key point about resolution 2249 and the reqtest from

:34:01.:34:07.

France and the United States is that we are wanted, we are actually

:34:08.:34:11.

needed in this fight and by demonstrating resolution and

:34:12.:34:14.

commitment, we are also strengthening because of thd allies

:34:15.:34:20.

generally to deal with this particular problem. Of course it is

:34:21.:34:24.

a battle of ideas. Yes, I whll give way. Don't you think it's r`ther

:34:25.:34:29.

perplexing that more effort has not been made by the Government and

:34:30.:34:32.

others to deal with the arms trade in the Middle East, to closd the

:34:33.:34:38.

Turkish border that is so fluent and tackle the funding from Saudi

:34:39.:34:43.

Arabia? I think the Prime Mhnister really made it clear earlier in his

:34:44.:34:47.

speech and previously that we are taking those steps. Of course more

:34:48.:34:51.

needs to be done but things are happening and they are happdning

:34:52.:34:54.

with rigour and they are happening with appropriateness to the

:34:55.:34:59.

challenges ahead. So I would say absolutely we need to do more, and

:35:00.:35:04.

more will be done. But I want to talk about the battle of iddas

:35:05.:35:08.

because it is absolutely crtcial. It is the fact that our way of life is

:35:09.:35:15.

being challenged, it is unddr attack, our democracy, our

:35:16.:35:17.

internationalism, our toler`nce is under attack and that is wh`t we

:35:18.:35:22.

have to defend. That's why ht's important that we stand up `nd fight

:35:23.:35:27.

against what is absolutely `wful. And the reason it is import`nt we

:35:28.:35:30.

state those three things and others is because that is how we ddal with

:35:31.:35:39.

the moderate Muslims, we relind them that it is important to valte those

:35:40.:35:44.

things too. Does the honour`ble gentleman opposite not give a - see

:35:45.:35:53.

a danger in Saudi Arabia is being given such a huge position hn this?

:35:54.:35:57.

Women are not well treated hn Saudi Arabia and we're giving thel a huge

:35:58.:36:02.

role in the region. The danger I see is the 1 where we do not participate

:36:03.:36:06.

and we do not actually applx our values, our skills, our leadership

:36:07.:36:12.

in this cause. The differences between now and before are `ctually

:36:13.:36:15.

that we need more unity on this one more than we have ever had before.

:36:16.:36:21.

The interesting thing also `bout the debate we had on Syria last time is

:36:22.:36:26.

that we should have acted then because the chaos that has raged in

:36:27.:36:31.

Syria since has actually made it possible for the Islamic St`te to do

:36:32.:36:36.

so well in developing its infrastructure and developing its

:36:37.:36:39.

reach and that is something we've got to bear in mind and we just

:36:40.:36:43.

don't want to make the same mistake again. That would be fatal to our

:36:44.:36:49.

interests in the Western world, fatal to our ambition to crdate a

:36:50.:36:54.

new Middle East which is actually where governments thrive, where the

:36:55.:37:00.

economics are successful, where the culture is great. I thought might

:37:01.:37:08.

Honourable friend really hit the nail on the head when he talked

:37:09.:37:11.

about that future, that ambhtion, that design effectively for the

:37:12.:37:20.

Middle East. It's about us working together as nations, I've s`id this

:37:21.:37:23.

so often in this house alre`dy, working together, sharing otr

:37:24.:37:28.

capacities, sharing our polhcies, sharing our willingness to `ctually

:37:29.:37:35.

make a difference. That's why I am voting for the Government tonight. I

:37:36.:37:40.

have done so, I will do so on the basis of considerable thought and

:37:41.:37:43.

considerable discussion with members of my constituency. But ulthmately

:37:44.:37:49.

our responsibility is to st`nd firm with our allies, defeat a tdrrible,

:37:50.:37:55.

terrible scourge on our globe and make sure that we can rebuild, at

:37:56.:38:02.

rebuild we must do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Following the horrhfying

:38:03.:38:09.

attacks over Ankara and Beirut and recently in Paris, no one should be

:38:10.:38:17.

in any doubt about the capability and intention of Daesh to c`rry out

:38:18.:38:24.

further terrorism across thd globe. There has to be a strong

:38:25.:38:26.

international response and the UK must be part of that. Enough have

:38:27.:38:31.

been -- has been said about comments the Prime Minister may have said

:38:32.:38:35.

last night. For my part, having prosecuted some of the most serious

:38:36.:38:40.

terror threats in this country and worked with the front bench to

:38:41.:38:45.

thwart terrorism, I'm sure the Prime Minister has my syntheses on this

:38:46.:38:48.

matter. The question is whether there is a lawful and compelling

:38:49.:38:52.

case for air strikes. So far as lawful is concerned, much h`s been

:38:53.:38:57.

said about UN resolution 2249. It does not in and of itself atthorise

:38:58.:39:03.

force but I accent that it hmplies accepting self defence and that

:39:04.:39:05.

would be a lawful action for action that has been taken and may be taken

:39:06.:39:11.

in the future. The question is for me whether if lawful, the action is

:39:12.:39:15.

nonetheless compelling and coherent. The argument that there is

:39:16.:39:20.

no logic taking military action in Iraq but not in Syria is seductive

:39:21.:39:26.

and it is powerful. But in the end it is unconvincing. The sittation in

:39:27.:39:30.

Syria is very different to the situation in Iraq. The Civil War has

:39:31.:39:35.

a different dynamic. The opposition forces are differently constituted

:39:36.:39:39.

and of course Russia has a heavy involvement in support of the Assad

:39:40.:39:44.

Government. That does not mdan there should be no response in Syria, and

:39:45.:39:48.

there is much in the Prime Minister's motion that I wotld agree

:39:49.:39:51.

with in relation to the Vienna process, in relation to the talks

:39:52.:39:57.

for a transition to an incltsive Syria and in relation to

:39:58.:40:00.

humanitarian suffering. But whether there are two BS strikes is another

:40:01.:40:06.

matter. I am not against air strikes per se. But I accept that it is

:40:07.:40:11.

difficult to see how territory could be taken from Daesh without them.

:40:12.:40:15.

But in my view air strikes without an effective ground Force are

:40:16.:40:20.

unlikely to make any meaningful contribution to defeating D`esh

:40:21.:40:25.

There is no effective ground force. I won't because there are lots of

:40:26.:40:28.

people who have been waiting to speak. The Prime Minister rdlies on

:40:29.:40:33.

what he calls the 70,000 Syrian opposition fighters on the ground

:40:34.:40:37.

but that is wholly unrealistic. They are a disparate group of individuals

:40:38.:40:42.

with varying motivations and capabilities. They are by ddfinition

:40:43.:40:45.

oppositional. It is hard to see how we could honour them and protect

:40:46.:40:49.

them without being drawn into conflict with Russia. So on that

:40:50.:40:53.

basis I will vote against the motion tonight, I will say yes I rdspect

:40:54.:40:57.

the views on all sides of pdople who form a different view and if the

:40:58.:41:01.

Prime Minister's motion is passed, I will support our horses in `ction.

:41:02.:41:12.

Richard Graham. Mr Speaker, tonight's debate on Daesh and Isil

:41:13.:41:17.

is an important moment for this Parliament. Earlier we had

:41:18.:41:21.

outstanding speeches opposite, I thought, from the Right Honourable

:41:22.:41:25.

members for Derby South, Kingston-upon-Hull, Wakefield and

:41:26.:41:32.

Normington. All of them highlighted the seriousness of the thre`t to our

:41:33.:41:39.

nation, the powerful United Nations Security Council resolution and the

:41:40.:41:42.

urging from regional governlents and our closest neighbour Francd for our

:41:43.:41:49.

action. Many others today h`ve also argued, rightly I believe, that

:41:50.:41:54.

tonight's motion includes a logical extension to what we have already

:41:55.:41:58.

voted overwhelmingly for in Iraq, across a boundary that the

:41:59.:42:02.

terrorists do not recognise. Some also argue that the RAF would make

:42:03.:42:06.

no difference to what our allies are already doing, and that the risks to

:42:07.:42:12.

civilians in Syria are too great. But if either was true, Mr Speaker,

:42:13.:42:16.

why would our allies want us into area and wide with the Iraqh

:42:17.:42:21.

Government want us in Iraq? -- why would our allies want us in Syria

:42:22.:42:27.

and why would the Iraqi Govdrnment want us in Iraq? Surely we would be

:42:28.:42:31.

calling for the return of otr Armed Forces and if that was true, surely

:42:32.:42:36.

the Right Honourable member would also be calling for no air strikes

:42:37.:42:40.

at all from the RAF, but he is not and we are not. And I believe that

:42:41.:42:45.

there is a good case that wd have made a difference in Iraq. So

:42:46.:42:50.

tonight I believe we can find much common ground across all parties

:42:51.:42:54.

through supporting a close Duropean partner and our closest allx,

:42:55.:42:58.

through the umbrella legitilacy of the UN, through the competence of

:42:59.:43:02.

the RAF and the logic of extending our operational boundaries. To those

:43:03.:43:06.

of my constituents with doubts, I believe it's important to rdmember

:43:07.:43:17.

that we're not invading Syrha, we're not waging war against Islal or

:43:18.:43:19.

Muslims, and that this is, `s the motion says, one part of a broader

:43:20.:43:22.

political strategy and this is our Government aggro plus big

:43:23.:43:24.

challenge, to defeat Isil so that a peace settlement has meaning on the

:43:25.:43:26.

ground, it would be unbelievably difficult given the blood on the

:43:27.:43:30.

bridge and the political, tribal and war scarred differences of those

:43:31.:43:36.

around the table in Vienna. A difficult settlement and tr`nsition

:43:37.:43:40.

is the eventual key and we have a role to play in the peacemaking and

:43:41.:43:44.

subsequent regeneration. Th`t agreement and the Government's

:43:45.:43:48.

afterwards, is what I believe Syria needs and its success or fahlure

:43:49.:43:53.

will determine whether we are seen to have played a positive role, a

:43:54.:43:59.

generation on. Mr Speaker, H did not done to the house with any pleasure

:44:00.:44:06.

to recommend our forces takhng lives, but the threat is very real,

:44:07.:44:10.

so I will be voting for the motion. I urge all parties to do so because

:44:11.:44:16.

a decision not to do so would perhaps show weakness.

:44:17.:44:19.

Like other members I have struggled to work out what is the right thing

:44:20.:44:24.

to do this evening, faced whth a very difficult decision as H have

:44:25.:44:28.

done with every decision regarding military action since I havd been a

:44:29.:44:32.

member of this house. In thd previous parliament I voted in

:44:33.:44:36.

favour of action in Libya and Iraq in 2014 and against action hn Syria

:44:37.:44:42.

in 2013. I know how hard it is to vote in favour of action and against

:44:43.:44:45.

action and I have learned in the five and a half years that H have

:44:46.:44:49.

been a member of this place that it is all most impossible to s`y which

:44:50.:44:52.

of these decisions with the benefit of hindsight was 100% right or 00%

:44:53.:44:56.

wrong. Having weighed up thd argument is for tonight's motion, I

:44:57.:45:02.

will be voting against. Before I explain my reasons, let me say that

:45:03.:45:06.

the house knows that I am a Muslim. Those that know me well know that my

:45:07.:45:11.

relief in -- my belief in God and religion is not just a small part of

:45:12.:45:17.

why identity or a box that H take on the censors but a defining

:45:18.:45:20.

characteristic of my life. @nd I am a Sunni too, Sunni born and Sunni

:45:21.:45:27.

raised, and since I have bedn able to make up my own mind on these

:45:28.:45:34.

things, a Sunni by choice. We can all agree that Isil are not

:45:35.:45:38.

representative of our faith and they are not representative of Mtslims.

:45:39.:45:44.

They are outlaws from Islam who engage in indiscriminate sl`ughter

:45:45.:45:47.

and who murder any Muslim that does not agree with them. If you are

:45:48.:45:50.

different or if you disagred, you die. I am well aware that a Muslim

:45:51.:45:57.

like myself ought to be killed, according to Isil. Believe le that I

:45:58.:46:03.

-- when I say that I do not simply want to see Isil defeated, H want to

:46:04.:46:07.

see them eradicated. But I believe that the action will not work and

:46:08.:46:11.

that is why I cannot vote for it. I believe that the chaos that will

:46:12.:46:16.

come from an ungoverned space, many members have said air strikds alone

:46:17.:46:19.

will not work and I agree. H believe we cannot simply bomb the ground, we

:46:20.:46:24.

have to have a strategy to hold it as well. On this point I listen

:46:25.:46:28.

carefully to the arguments `bout the 70,000 moderates and normally we

:46:29.:46:32.

believe that our enemy's endmy is our friend. But in this casd I

:46:33.:46:36.

believe that our enemy's endmy will turn out not to be our friend. There

:46:37.:46:40.

are Duminy different groups with too many shifting allegiances and

:46:41.:46:47.

objectives. -- there are too many. Would she agree that many British

:46:48.:46:50.

Sunni Muslims and British Mtslims agree with her sentiments on this

:46:51.:46:59.

evil sect of Daesh? I am gr`teful for that intervention and I agree

:47:00.:47:02.

with the point made and I bdlieve in this respect I do and I am `ble to

:47:03.:47:07.

speak for the wider British Muslim and British Sunni community. Mr

:47:08.:47:13.

Speaker, what of Russia? Thdy too are acting against Isil but they are

:47:14.:47:17.

also arming some of the manx moderates that the Government will

:47:18.:47:20.

be seeking to rely on in order to hold the ground that they bdlieve is

:47:21.:47:25.

necessary following air strhkes Mr Speaker, I think back also to the

:47:26.:47:31.

decision regarding Syria in 200 word team -- in 2013 when I believe

:47:32.:47:35.

that action against Assad would create a vacuum which would lead to

:47:36.:47:40.

more militancy for which we would be responsible. Now I believe we risk

:47:41.:47:45.

strengthening Assad and cre`ting a deeper crisis for which we `re also

:47:46.:47:50.

responsible. As for our own security, my instinct tells me that

:47:51.:47:56.

our threat is the same whether we act or we don't act. We will not be

:47:57.:48:01.

any more in their sights if we vote in favour. Finally Mr Speakdr in the

:48:02.:48:04.

short time left to me, therd has been some suggestion in the last day

:48:05.:48:08.

or so that the time for apportionment of blame will come,

:48:09.:48:11.

those in favour will have to step forward and there will be nowhere to

:48:12.:48:15.

hide. If you vote against, `s I will, the implication is th`t you

:48:16.:48:19.

can avoid the blame. For those who think that way, let me say this If

:48:20.:48:23.

only the world were that silple There are consequences and hnnocent

:48:24.:48:26.

people will die from action and inaction whatever we decide

:48:27.:48:31.

tonight. We will all bear a measure of responsibility. Thank yot Mr

:48:32.:48:37.

Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable lady oppositd who

:48:38.:48:41.

spoke from personally variance with conviction and with great p`ssion

:48:42.:48:46.

although coming to a differdnt conclusion than mine. Mr Spdaker,

:48:47.:48:49.

matters of war and peace, the security of the United Kingdom are

:48:50.:48:54.

the primary responsibility of this Government and this house. This is

:48:55.:48:57.

the first time in my capacity as a member of this house that I have

:48:58.:49:01.

been asked to vote on committing the UK to military action. And H can

:49:02.:49:05.

assure fellow members as well as my constituents that this is not a vote

:49:06.:49:09.

that I take lightly. I have carefully considered the arguments

:49:10.:49:13.

made by the Government and ht is clear that Daesh poses a direct

:49:14.:49:14.

threat to the UK. Recent attacks across the continent,

:49:15.:49:24.

Turkey, Tunisia, Lebanon, the downing of the plane from Egypt and

:49:25.:49:32.

the horrific attacks in Parhs show that Daesh is capable of

:49:33.:49:35.

international terrorism. Cldarly it is a terrorist group which does not

:49:36.:49:40.

respect borders, and the people of the UK are in their sights, too

:49:41.:49:46.

Every day when I come into this House, I see the notification

:49:47.:49:49.

telling me that the threat level to this country and its people is

:49:50.:49:53.

severe. This means a terrorhst attack is highly likely. Indeed we

:49:54.:49:57.

have heard already that sevdn terrorist plot have been fohled this

:49:58.:50:04.

year, linked to or inspired by Daesh and their deadly propaganda, and I

:50:05.:50:07.

pay tribute to our intelligdnce services upon whom we rely to keep

:50:08.:50:15.

us safe. But as Daesh grows in strength and audacity, our security

:50:16.:50:20.

is increasingly under threat. So in my view, when the UN Security

:50:21.:50:30.

Council calls on their statds, we have a responsibility to answer that

:50:31.:50:35.

call. Over recent months, a number of my constituents have contacted me

:50:36.:50:42.

about the situation in Syri`. I recently visited the largest camp in

:50:43.:50:46.

Jordan situated just 14 milds from the Syrian border. Those people in

:50:47.:50:52.

those camps are living in the most basic conditions, and the only

:50:53.:50:58.

desire is to go home to Syrha. Peace in the region is dependent on us

:50:59.:51:04.

reaching agreements in Vienna, and the Vienna process is cruci`l, too.

:51:05.:51:10.

Destroying Isil, bringing pdace to Syria and Iraq and rebuilding the

:51:11.:51:14.

shattered lives of the populations will be hard, and will requhre a

:51:15.:51:17.

multilayered approach by a broad coalition of nations. In my view,

:51:18.:51:22.

the UK has a moral obligation to assist our allies in this fhght and

:51:23.:51:27.

to ultimately help to return Syria and its people, to its people. For

:51:28.:51:34.

this reason I will be supporting the Government and this motion. I have

:51:35.:51:45.

looked at the Prime Minister's proposal with experts and academics.

:51:46.:51:49.

I have read over 2000 communications, and on Mond`y night

:51:50.:51:52.

I had a meeting in my consthtuency with over 400 people present. Over

:51:53.:51:58.

99% have said no to the Prile Minister's plans. Daesh exhhbits the

:51:59.:52:03.

most Venus and murderous iddology, but how will precision weapons

:52:04.:52:07.

target without coordination on the ground? -- the most he hate heinous.

:52:08.:52:26.

Local people work for them on the ground not because they share their

:52:27.:52:29.

ideology but to save their own lives. Without forces on thd ground,

:52:30.:52:36.

there will be serious casualties. We have already heard around the Free

:52:37.:52:39.

Syrian Army exactly what thhs is. The Foreign Secretary came to the

:52:40.:52:45.

House and said 80,000 strong on the 20th of October. The Prime Linister,

:52:46.:52:48.

20,000 strong on the 26th of November. Yesterday I heard 40, 00,

:52:49.:52:58.

today 15,000. The reality is they are a disparate group. We h`ve heard

:52:59.:53:02.

about the shifting sands. There are many groups are coordinated under an

:53:03.:53:07.

umbrella, and we do not know if they would jump to western orders. Is

:53:08.:53:11.

fighting another war, a mord conventional war, will it moved to a

:53:12.:53:18.

more difficult conflict to fight, in fighting a different enemy? And

:53:19.:53:23.

obviously we know that they have fought to protect land against

:53:24.:53:27.

Assad, and therefore will it be willing to move across the country

:53:28.:53:31.

to fight in a different part of the country and give up that land which

:53:32.:53:36.

it has protected and tried to gain? And therefore we have to ask those

:53:37.:53:40.

questions before we proceed. To take a bit more time is not admitting

:53:41.:53:47.

defeat. It is about being politicians and really scrutinising

:53:48.:53:52.

what is before us. There is no lost face in stepping back in order to

:53:53.:53:55.

step forward. But we also mtst listen to the people who live on the

:53:56.:54:01.

ground. Who have said no also to this action. No one in this place

:54:02.:54:08.

has the wisdom of Solomon, but it is clear that this strategy is weak,

:54:09.:54:13.

and the sequencing wrong. I will be voting to reject this motion

:54:14.:54:17.

tonight, and just ask that the Government can come back with a more

:54:18.:54:21.

comprehensive ground than and therefore enable us to scrutinise

:54:22.:54:24.

that, and hopefully we can love forward to a deal with Daesh and its

:54:25.:54:34.

evil. Yesterday while preparing for this debate I was accused bx certain

:54:35.:54:43.

people on social media. The Speaker: Order. There is quite a

:54:44.:54:49.

lot of really rather disconcerting and discourteous chuntering from

:54:50.:54:54.

both sides of the House, including the Foreign Secretary, whosd

:54:55.:54:58.

honourable friend has the floor and who will be heard. If members wish

:54:59.:55:02.

to conduct an argument, thex will do it outside the chamber, be they ever

:55:03.:55:11.

so high. Let's be clear abott that. Yesterday, Mr Speaker, I was accused

:55:12.:55:16.

by certain people on social media of having firstly no care for ly

:55:17.:55:20.

children and second no thought for people in Syria. Nothing cotld be

:55:21.:55:26.

further from the truth. Our families and our children, and those families

:55:27.:55:30.

and children from the Middld East and North Africa, whether in their

:55:31.:55:34.

homes or displaced, are the future of our world. We want them to play

:55:35.:55:40.

and grow without fear in th`t world, to see good and beauty in it,

:55:41.:55:45.

to see the point of trying to make it better. When they ask, what did I

:55:46.:55:55.

do today? , I want them to know that I stood up for them. We want to make

:55:56.:55:57.

life on the ground that of people, to them from indiscriminate

:55:58.:56:03.

injustice, to allow humanitx, restore normal life and offdr better

:56:04.:56:08.

ideas. Our involvement really can make a positive difference, and we

:56:09.:56:14.

must not shirk it. Militarily, we can with more precision takdout

:56:15.:56:22.

targets that threaten us. Wd are not bombing Syria in the way sole

:56:23.:56:28.

allege. And diplomatically, our involvement will give us thd best

:56:29.:56:32.

chance to shape efforts tow`rds a lasting political settlement. If we

:56:33.:56:37.

want to be able to negotiatd sometimes very firmly as we should

:56:38.:56:42.

with Russia, Iran, the Syri`n establishment and our allies in the

:56:43.:56:44.

Gulf states and beyond, we have to be credible. We can't expect to have

:56:45.:56:50.

influence with them, to shape our world, if we are an willing to use

:56:51.:56:55.

the powers we have when askdd to make the transitions to a political

:56:56.:56:58.

solution less painful than they otherwise might be. We want the

:56:59.:57:03.

civil war in Syria to end, `nd hope to return. I am persuaded that there

:57:04.:57:11.

is right here in Vienna a fhrm diplomatic strategy backed by action

:57:12.:57:15.

tonight. A real chance that we can help that happened politically, and

:57:16.:57:22.

I want to commend what is in fact a comprehensive strategy to the House.

:57:23.:57:30.

Mr Speaker, I will be voting against the Government tonight, but I will

:57:31.:57:33.

not be doing so with any certainty in my mind that what I'm is correct.

:57:34.:57:39.

I envy all those members of the House that are certain about what

:57:40.:57:44.

the right decision is to do today. I envy those people who contacted me

:57:45.:57:47.

on Twitter. I envy my consthtuents and party members who contacted me

:57:48.:57:52.

and said that it is a no-br`iner, it is obvious. It has not been obvious

:57:53.:57:56.

to me, it has been very difficult indeed. I have listened to ` number

:57:57.:58:01.

of contributions from my honourable friends who will be in a different

:58:02.:58:05.

lobby to me tonight, but I have agreed with a great deal thdy have

:58:06.:58:11.

had to say. And in coming to the conclusion I have come to, ht has

:58:12.:58:14.

been incredibly difficult, because a huge amount of the contribution that

:58:15.:58:18.

has been made from honourable friends who are voting with the

:58:19.:58:20.

Government with which I do `gree. I agree that there should is ` peril

:58:21.:58:29.

that must be defeated. -- D`esh is a peril. They are a scourge who

:58:30.:58:35.

inflict misery on huge numbdrs of Muslims, kill far more Muslhms than

:58:36.:58:40.

Westerners, and I agree that we should not turn our backs lhkely

:58:41.:58:46.

upon our allies and have trdmendous solidarity with the people of

:58:47.:58:51.

France, upon whom such misery and carnage has been recently vhsited. I

:58:52.:58:56.

agree as an internationalist it is not easy for me to turn my back on

:58:57.:59:00.

that United Nations resoluthon that went through, and I agree that the

:59:01.:59:05.

action being proposed tonight has a strongly call basis. So why will I

:59:06.:59:11.

not be supporting it? I won't be supporting it because somethmes I

:59:12.:59:14.

believe that the kindest thhng you can do as a friend is to sax to your

:59:15.:59:18.

friends in their moment of torment that the direction they are taking

:59:19.:59:21.

might not actually be the rdsolution to the problems that they f`ce, and

:59:22.:59:26.

I think that what we have in front of us is a motion I listened with

:59:27.:59:31.

great intent to the briefing that we had yesterday from the Forehgn

:59:32.:59:34.

Secretary and others which H thought was incredibly professional, but it

:59:35.:59:38.

was not able to answer the central point about the ground forcds, and

:59:39.:59:43.

when people say, we are doing it in Iraq, why not in Syria, the answer

:59:44.:59:47.

is in Iraq we're doing it at the request with the Iraqi government

:59:48.:59:53.

with the support of Iraqi ground forces, and the political process,

:59:54.:59:55.

the fledgling process that finally has nations working together must be

:59:56.:00:02.

given a chance to work, bec`use if we have that international

:00:03.:00:05.

transition plan, if it actu`lly starts to lead to something which at

:00:06.:00:10.

this fledgling stage it possibly could do, then we have a possibility

:00:11.:00:14.

that these ground forces will turn away from Assad and towards Isil,

:00:15.:00:17.

and then we have the potenthal that the actions we take will actually

:00:18.:00:20.

deliver what we had all desperately wanted which is the end of Hsil and

:00:21.:00:24.

a better and more promising future for the people of Syria.

:00:25.:00:32.

Mr Speaker, there can be no grave or more serious topic for us in this

:00:33.:00:35.

House to debate than the usd of military force, and I have had much

:00:36.:00:39.

correspondence from my constituents, and I have re`d every

:00:40.:00:44.

bit of it. I listened to wh`t my honourable friend from Yeovhl had to

:00:45.:00:47.

say earlier. We are asking xoung men and women to go and fight and

:00:48.:00:51.

potentially die was the eng`ging in the use of force in another land. I

:00:52.:00:55.

know the Prime Minister and Government have set out serhous and

:00:56.:00:57.

powerful arguments for air strikes on Daesh, and they have been clear

:00:58.:01:03.

in this motion that they will be targeting Daesh exclusively. Equally

:01:04.:01:06.

I have heard some thoughtful, sincere and indeed forensic

:01:07.:01:08.

arguments were members of both sides of this debate. There are m`ny

:01:09.:01:15.

questions, and the answers need to be crystal clear. We cannot make the

:01:16.:01:22.

mistakes of the past by failing to have a handful of sects and

:01:23.:01:33.

ethnicities. We would be doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past The

:01:34.:01:39.

consequences of the past ard deeply rooted in a lot of the war hs taking

:01:40.:01:45.

place in the region today. Hn numerous reports of people who have

:01:46.:01:49.

escaped the regime of Daesh, it seems the state would project is

:01:50.:01:53.

failing. We must ask ourselves, will British air strikes help th`t

:01:54.:01:57.

efforts to eventually weaken and bring about the destruction of Daesh

:01:58.:02:04.

in their strongholds? So our intelligence must be accurate. And

:02:05.:02:09.

we must ensure that our allhes in the Middle East are playing their

:02:10.:02:15.

part. According to a Departlent of Defence official in the United

:02:16.:02:19.

States, Saudi Arabia have not flown omission in three months, Jordan for

:02:20.:02:30.

months, UAE nine months. Mr Speaker, I will just turn to my decision my

:02:31.:02:35.

vote on this issue. I'm surd we all feel the weight of history, and

:02:36.:02:38.

understand the position that others have had to vote on issues of war in

:02:39.:02:44.

this House have felt. There can never be absolute certainty on the

:02:45.:02:48.

outcome of action, despite the fact that we are all certain abott the

:02:49.:02:53.

need to destroy Daesh. Therd are dangers in acting and in not acting,

:02:54.:02:56.

and I quote former US president Dwight Eisenhower. Neither ` wise

:02:57.:03:02.

man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the

:03:03.:03:05.

train of the future to run over him. I don't profess to be wise or brave,

:03:06.:03:10.

but I do support the Governlent in this. The reality is, do we wait for

:03:11.:03:14.

a Paris situation to happen here, or do we act now? We act now. Thank

:03:15.:03:23.

you, Mr Speaker. May I begin by congratulating the work dond by the

:03:24.:03:27.

Foreign Affairs Committee in producing this excellent and

:03:28.:03:31.

thoughtful report, and may H also commend the report to any honourable

:03:32.:03:36.

member who hasn't had a chance to read it? I hope that the Prhme

:03:37.:03:40.

Minister also takes cognizance of the fact that the Foreign Affairs

:03:41.:03:44.

Committee, when they reportdd last night, they said they were not

:03:45.:03:48.

adequately convinced that the concerns contained in their report

:03:49.:03:53.

had been met. And the Foreign Affairs Committee, the forehgn

:03:54.:03:58.

affairs report, just three or four weeks ago said that the

:03:59.:04:03.

extraordinary complexity of the situation on the ground meant that

:04:04.:04:07.

there were few reliable counterparts, and that therd

:04:08.:04:10.

appeared little chance of a legitimate functioning ally in

:04:11.:04:14.

urgent from in the chaos anx time soon. -- emerging from the chaos.

:04:15.:04:20.

Now miraculously we are expdcted to believe that there are some 70, 00

:04:21.:04:25.

moderate troops ready to fight on our behalf. I will give way.

:04:26.:04:31.

I'm grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. As much as being

:04:32.:04:38.

said about the professionalhsm and dedication of our armed servicemen

:04:39.:04:43.

and women, do they not have the right to know who they will be

:04:44.:04:46.

fighting alongside in any conflict they are set to take part in? I

:04:47.:04:52.

absolutely agree with my honourable friend. One can only conclude that

:04:53.:04:57.

this 70,000 figure has been a convenient arithmetical cre`tion. I

:04:58.:05:04.

will come to you in a moment. That adds together a multitude of people

:05:05.:05:08.

from different cultures, different factions and with widely differing

:05:09.:05:13.

ambitions for the future of Syria. I agree that one should be told who

:05:14.:05:18.

exactly they are. I fear th`t the 70,000 figure, this claim, will

:05:19.:05:25.

define this Prime Minister's tried formula tree intervention in the

:05:26.:05:29.

Middle East in the same way that the claim of being just 45 men hs from

:05:30.:05:38.

attack has defined a previots Prime Minister's earlier misadventures in

:05:39.:05:43.

the Middle East. I'm grateftl to the honourable gentleman for giving way.

:05:44.:05:52.

Can I draw his attention not only to the Prime Minister's statemdnt but

:05:53.:05:56.

he might want to look at Ch`rles Lister's work, a visiting fdllow who

:05:57.:06:06.

has written about the 75,000, breaking them down reasonably

:06:07.:06:09.

accurately. I suggest he looks at that. The key issue here is the

:06:10.:06:14.

change over the last month `t Vienna. Mr Speaker, I do colmend the

:06:15.:06:21.

report, I think it is a first-class piece of work. The report also said

:06:22.:06:27.

that any involvement in air strikes from the UK would be unlikely to be

:06:28.:06:34.

a war winning intervention. Sir Simon said that this is not a war

:06:35.:06:40.

winning air campaign by any stretch of the imagination. Even thd most

:06:41.:06:44.

enthusiastic cheerleader for UK air strikes in Syria has to agrde that

:06:45.:06:49.

very few planes would actually be involved and our contribution would

:06:50.:06:54.

be extremely small. But at the same time, the Prime Minister was telling

:06:55.:07:00.

us that a major military part of the argument for air strikes was that we

:07:01.:07:06.

had a unique contribution to make. That unique contribution was a

:07:07.:07:10.

Brimstone missile. The Primd Minister himself went on thd record

:07:11.:07:13.

as saying that UK Brimstone missile is worth a unique asset that the UK

:07:14.:07:20.

had to bring and they would be lobbied by coalition partners in

:07:21.:07:23.

order to bring that to the theatre. But as I pointed out to the Prime

:07:24.:07:28.

Minister, the Royal Saudi Arabian air force have been using Brimstone

:07:29.:07:34.

missiles since February this year and I asked specifically about the

:07:35.:07:37.

question. Mr Speaker, let's be honest, the UK Government's desire

:07:38.:07:42.

to take part in the bombing of Syria is less of a military contrhbution

:07:43.:07:47.

and more of a political statement. The Government has felt left on the

:07:48.:07:53.

sidelines since 2013 and has been itching to get a piece of the

:07:54.:07:57.

action. So much of the UK's thinking, this is more to do with

:07:58.:08:02.

how the UK looks at other pdople than it does asking what good we can

:08:03.:08:12.

do. Mr Speaker, decades of lilitary intervention in the Middle Dast and

:08:13.:08:17.

we do not have a success to show. Mr Speaker, there are more than enough

:08:18.:08:22.

people dropping bombs on Syria. We do not have to add to the chaos and

:08:23.:08:28.

the misery and the inevitable civilian casualties by adding to

:08:29.:08:33.

that. Yes Daesh are evil and yes they have to be defeated and yes we

:08:34.:08:38.

have a contribution to make, but dropping bombs from 34,000 feet is

:08:39.:08:44.

not the way to do it. Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past let

:08:45.:08:51.

us embark on and other -- ldt us not embark on another Middle East

:08:52.:08:59.

misadventure and have a credible plan for security for Syria. Thank

:09:00.:09:06.

you Mr Speaker. A pleasure to have a chance to speak straight after the

:09:07.:09:12.

Right Honourable member for Argyll and Bute, who, after giving us a

:09:13.:09:16.

range of problems, seems to be somewhat lacking on potenti`l

:09:17.:09:20.

solutions. The 1 thing I agree with the SNP benches on is the idea that

:09:21.:09:30.

we call them Daesh. They ard neither true to his lamb nor a recognised

:09:31.:09:34.

state and we should not givd them that credence. But this is not about

:09:35.:09:38.

making some political statelent If there is a statement to be lade it

:09:39.:09:41.

is about the fact that when one of our allies is attacked we whll come

:09:42.:09:47.

to their aid. The bedrock of our defence is Article five of the north

:09:48.:09:51.

Atlantic to the, the Nato treaty, the SNP still want to be part of and

:09:52.:09:56.

that is the mutual offence that an attack in Europe we respond to. I

:09:57.:10:01.

will happily take an intervdntion. He mentions the solidarity that one

:10:02.:10:06.

must show with our allies btt would he apply that to the Kurds `nd our

:10:07.:10:13.

Nato allies in Turkey? We stood with the Kurds, a era go this parliament

:10:14.:10:18.

voted to intervene when the murderous thugs of Daesh were on

:10:19.:10:21.

their way to overrun the Kurdish autonomous region and weak xet have

:10:22.:10:30.

had a massacre in this centtry. This party and to be fair other parties

:10:31.:10:35.

wanted to do something. Somd of the arguments we have heard so far this

:10:36.:10:38.

afternoon made the case that you pull away the spot -- the ahr

:10:39.:10:43.

support that has helped keep Daesh from massacring the Kurds. For me in

:10:44.:10:51.

approaching this motion, I `sked myself two questions. The fhrst was

:10:52.:10:55.

what specific objectives we have for our involvement, along with allies,

:10:56.:10:59.

and is there a clear legal basis for the action. The second was, what

:11:00.:11:05.

would a post-war Syria look like? In short, who or what would be the

:11:06.:11:09.

Government there and how wotld our intervention assist in bringing this

:11:10.:11:14.

about? Legality is now much easier. There is a pretty clear UN Security

:11:15.:11:18.

Council resolution. At that resolution not been passed, we would

:11:19.:11:22.

have been hearing today abott how we needed the resolution. Now one has

:11:23.:11:25.

been passed, we're hearing ht's not quite enough. The reality is no

:11:26.:11:29.

resolution would be enough for some in this chamber despite the very

:11:30.:11:33.

clear wording of that Securhty Council resolution. So definitely

:11:34.:11:39.

legal. What are the specific objectives we have? The ulthmate

:11:40.:11:42.

objective is to clear Daesh away from the territory they control

:11:43.:11:44.

which gives them their base of power. It is about making stre we

:11:45.:11:54.

can actually assist our allhes and wouldn't it be ludicrous whdn our

:11:55.:12:00.

allies are fighting a Daesh unit, it gets to a border, an invisible line

:12:01.:12:04.

in the sand that they don't recognise, and we say sorry, you

:12:05.:12:08.

have gone one foot over the Syrian border, we're not going to do

:12:09.:12:12.

anything. It's about being part of a coalition. It's ironic to h`ve shout

:12:13.:12:17.

that we are not doing enough from one or two benches, that is an

:12:18.:12:21.

argument to do more and not to do less. Coming on to the second point

:12:22.:12:28.

about what will a post-war Syria look like? That is what the process

:12:29.:12:33.

is there for. A negotiation to deliver a Government of stability in

:12:34.:12:41.

Syria for the future. Order, stop the clock. The honourable gdntleman

:12:42.:12:46.

must be heard with courtesy. I say to one honourable gentleman whose

:12:47.:12:50.

loquacity has been notable today, that he is perfectly entitldd to

:12:51.:12:55.

seek to intervene but he must not seek to deny that Honourabld member

:12:56.:12:58.

a courteous hearing. Let's be fair and decent to each other. Mr Kevin

:12:59.:13:07.

Foster. Thank you Mr Speaker. For me whatever comes out of that Vienna

:13:08.:13:11.

negotiation, the 1 answer that will not come out of it is that Daesh

:13:12.:13:15.

should carry on having a role in the future Government of Syria. They're

:13:16.:13:20.

not going to be cleared out by just hopeful diplomacy. They're part of

:13:21.:13:26.

it will be a military intervention. It is right we start of the grading

:13:27.:13:30.

them now whilst we start to clear up that coalition that will cldar them

:13:31.:13:35.

out permanently and not just say it is too difficult. Mr Tim Shdrman.

:13:36.:13:38.

Thank you Mr Peter. -- thank you Mr Speaker. With the US

:13:39.:13:49.

adding manpower and Germany and China, we need today to an list in

:13:50.:14:00.

the coalition against Daesh. It is still difficult to fathom the

:14:01.:14:05.

inhumanity and sheer disreg`rd for human life that Daesh show. Today we

:14:06.:14:11.

condemn it to the history books and say we will not stand idly by while

:14:12.:14:18.

people are killed, raped, tortured, and strike fear into the population.

:14:19.:14:23.

The difference between Isil's army, they rape and murder innocent people

:14:24.:14:29.

as if the only law is the l`w of the jungle. We will decide how to target

:14:30.:14:33.

them through the democratic process. The decision of thhs house

:14:34.:14:38.

and the way forward. Of course Mr Speaker, that is where sitthng back

:14:39.:14:42.

has left us, watching the shtuation spiralling further and further out

:14:43.:14:44.

of control, the law of the jungle prevailing and that spreading. The

:14:45.:14:51.

time for restoring law and order was long ago. We have all seen the

:14:52.:14:59.

Islamic State as confining ` horrendous caliphate to one corner

:15:00.:15:03.

of the globe. We all know the consequences of appeasement go

:15:04.:15:10.

beyond Europe, consequences we in Northern Ireland are only too aware

:15:11.:15:15.

of. Today we have the naysaxers Nay saying intervention does not work.

:15:16.:15:20.

It is clear that they already hate us, regardless of whether wd bombed

:15:21.:15:33.

them or not. The fact is th`t civilians are dying en massd. There

:15:34.:15:36.

is not going to be an end to civilian casualties. The only way to

:15:37.:15:42.

stop civilian casualties is to eradicate the cause of such

:15:43.:15:49.

casualties. To take those who are organising the attacks in Bdlgium,

:15:50.:15:52.

France and elsewhere in Europe and take away their ability to darn

:15:53.:15:53.

money is and that time. Mr Speaker, today this great

:15:54.:16:09.

country, this great democracy, this beacon of liberty that this house

:16:10.:16:13.

is, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will

:16:14.:16:20.

vote whether or not to join the coalition against Daesh. Let's put

:16:21.:16:26.

Daesh out of business. A pldasure to follow the honourable gentldman from

:16:27.:16:35.

Strangford. Tornado crews from my county have been flying to Hraq in

:16:36.:16:43.

the past year. Today we ask question is whether we do more and the answer

:16:44.:16:50.

is yes. I vote today in favour of diplomacy, in favour of united

:16:51.:16:55.

resolve of the United Nations, in favour of continuous humanitarian

:16:56.:16:59.

leadership, for planning, ftll stabilisation, reconstruction and

:17:00.:16:59.

peace in -- peace in Syria and for extending

:17:00.:17:09.

our advanced military capabhlities in a fight that is already going on,

:17:10.:17:13.

in a fight in which we are `lready involved, a fight where our enemies

:17:14.:17:19.

want as dead, a fight we must win for British -- to keep Brithsh

:17:20.:17:23.

people safe at home and abroad and where our allies need our hdlp. It

:17:24.:17:26.

is right that the Government takes domestic action which is not

:17:27.:17:29.

necessarily named in this motion which goes with a coherent lilitary

:17:30.:17:35.

and diplomatic action. I won't give way, I want to proceed and there are

:17:36.:17:39.

a view other members who have been waiting patiently and want to come

:17:40.:17:42.

in. We all know we are under threat. No action is no opthon. We

:17:43.:17:46.

all know there is history bdhind and that there is risk ahead. Pdople are

:17:47.:17:50.

naturally concerned that we may make things worse. Or that the ahr

:17:51.:17:56.

strikes will make us more of a target here in Britain. Those

:17:57.:18:00.

concerns are valid but we c`n only hope to make a safer world of

:18:01.:18:04.

British children and Syrian children too to have the courage -- by having

:18:05.:18:08.

the courage to defeat the evil we face. Syrians are already fleeing

:18:09.:18:14.

it, and desperately. The UN is asking us to act. We must act. I'm

:18:15.:18:19.

prepared to back UK action with all of its risks because I want to

:18:20.:18:23.

protect civilians there, here and anywhere in the world from that

:18:24.:18:28.

greater and more certain threat that they face from IS, the thre`t of

:18:29.:18:34.

death, repression, torture. People rightly argue you cannot bolb and

:18:35.:18:39.

ideology out of existence. That is true. That is why we need the

:18:40.:18:42.

breadth of what is in the motion today. We need to ask what the

:18:43.:18:47.

alternative is, to allow an ideology that recruits from its own lilitary

:18:48.:18:51.

success so far to continue to do so with a headquarters and to hnvoke

:18:52.:18:55.

our silence in its cause West Jamaat no. We must today back that motion,

:18:56.:19:01.

Mr Speaker. My morals, Mike Puncheon is, my heart and my head sax it is

:19:02.:19:05.

Parliament's duty to support the Government in the actions it must

:19:06.:19:09.

take to keep British citizens safe against the active ideological

:19:10.:19:15.

Eagle. It is foolhardy to f`il to take an action that would allow us

:19:16.:19:17.

to do our part. Mr Speaker, my close school friend

:19:18.:19:27.

James Adams was blown up on the Piccadilly line outside Russell

:19:28.:19:30.

Square on the 7th of July 2005. Several of my constituents `lso lost

:19:31.:19:40.

their lives. Terrorism needs to be defeated, and all of this House

:19:41.:19:46.

comes together in that effort. The Prime Minister is right when he says

:19:47.:19:50.

that bombing might well degrade Isil. I am with him on that. He is

:19:51.:19:58.

right when he says that Daesh is a force that needs a coalition of us

:19:59.:20:00.

to come together and challenge them. He is right about that. He hs right

:20:01.:20:09.

also that there are moderatds on the ground that might support otr

:20:10.:20:15.

efforts after there has been aerial bombing. However, on listenhng to

:20:16.:20:25.

the Prime Minister, on refldcting on Turkey attacking the Russians, on

:20:26.:20:33.

reflecting on this debate, H have come to the conclusion that I am not

:20:34.:20:36.

able to support the Governmdnt tonight for three reasons. One is

:20:37.:20:42.

aged it concerned. Having looked into the eyes of so many yotng

:20:43.:20:48.

Muslim men that might be seduced by extremism, the deep concern that

:20:49.:20:53.

there remains a vacuum becatse there are not sufficient of those Sunni

:20:54.:21:00.

moderates on the ground. I remember this House saying that we would deal

:21:01.:21:07.

with Al-Qaeda, and in dealing with Al-Qaeda, we gave way to Ishl. Given

:21:08.:21:13.

there are 65 DStv which grotps, and many are jihadists, there whll be

:21:14.:21:19.

extremists that come as a rdsult of this. -- there are 65 disparate

:21:20.:21:28.

groups. The recent attacks were an extreme act of terror but also an

:21:29.:21:34.

act of holy war, eight for ts and others to engage in that holy war.

:21:35.:21:40.

We must tread very, very gently over the coming days and months, it seems

:21:41.:21:46.

to me. If the Prime Minister had come to this House committed to

:21:47.:21:51.

ground troops, and I know no one would put boots on the ground, but I

:21:52.:21:56.

say this, we cannot continud simply to expect aerial bombardment to do

:21:57.:22:04.

the job. It has become the blanket of the West, and actually the truth

:22:05.:22:11.

is civilians will die. Coushns, brothers, sisters will die, and

:22:12.:22:16.

there will be a new generathon of extremists that, in that vacuum

:22:17.:22:23.

That is why unfortunately I am not repaired to put my name to the

:22:24.:22:29.

Government motion. Mr Speaker, had I been a melber of

:22:30.:22:33.

this House in 2003, I would have voted against the Iraq war. Had I

:22:34.:22:38.

been a member of this House on the last vote in Syria, I would have

:22:39.:22:43.

opposed the Government as wdll, so I don't stand here today is a

:22:44.:22:47.

warmonger or somebody who rdvels in military action. I stand here to say

:22:48.:22:54.

-- today as a pragmatist who has listened to what the French bench --

:22:55.:23:00.

the front bench has said, and I will support the Government this evening.

:23:01.:23:04.

It would have been in the spirit of honest politics, more honest, if the

:23:05.:23:08.

leader of the Labour Party had come to this House and put up his hand

:23:09.:23:13.

and said, I am a committed pacifist of long-standing and conviction

:23:14.:23:19.

instead of trying to hide bdhind artificial barriers and tests. Mr

:23:20.:23:23.

Speaker, his silence on the subject of our activity in Iraq, and his

:23:24.:23:29.

absence of any support for our military personnel there spoke

:23:30.:23:35.

volumes. It was deafening, `nd the House heard it. But last night, Mr

:23:36.:23:43.

Speaker, I spent a very ple`sant half an hour talking to four of the

:23:44.:23:45.

anti-war protesters outside this House. A taxi driver, a teacher a

:23:46.:23:54.

charity worker and a tour gtide And they asked me why I was vothng in

:23:55.:23:58.

favour, and I will tell you why This is not a war. This is `

:23:59.:24:04.

recalibration and extension of an existing operation. There are

:24:05.:24:10.

civilian casualties now, and we cannot sit idly by. We have to have

:24:11.:24:18.

an element of trust in thosd who can see the security documents `nd are

:24:19.:24:23.

convinced by them. And also, Mr Speaker, we cannot rely continually

:24:24.:24:29.

on our security services to be 00% right 100% of the time. I whll give

:24:30.:24:36.

way. I am grateful to him forgiving way. Will he agree with me that

:24:37.:24:40.

there is a threat, a current, present danger to this country now,

:24:41.:24:45.

and it is only thanks to our security services that it h`sn't

:24:46.:24:48.

been realised, and we need to recognise that threat now. Ly

:24:49.:24:51.

honourable friend is absolutely right. And a number of honotrable

:24:52.:24:56.

members on all sides of the House. And I agree with the honour`ble

:24:57.:24:59.

gentleman from Chesterfield. There is no certainty in this, and all of

:25:00.:25:03.

us have come under a huge alount of pressure from constituents. 90% of

:25:04.:25:10.

mine who have e-mailed are opposed. But I rely on Edmund Byrne who

:25:11.:25:18.

wrote... THE SPEAKER: Order! Let's hdar what

:25:19.:25:28.

he said! Your representative, ie your member

:25:29.:25:32.

of Parliament, owes you not his industry only but his judgmdnt. And

:25:33.:25:37.

he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your ophnion. We

:25:38.:25:45.

are here to exercise our judgment, and in my judgment, the wording of

:25:46.:25:50.

the opposition, of the motion, sorry, covers all of the bases, all

:25:51.:25:54.

of the challenges, all of the tests that members of this House have set

:25:55.:26:01.

the Prime Minister. Mr Speaker, we are not the policemen of thd world,

:26:02.:26:05.

but we find nothing splendid in isolation. What we do reflect upon

:26:06.:26:13.

our values, and the values that we place on our strategic and political

:26:14.:26:23.

partners. Je suis Paris has to be more than a political tag, ht is

:26:24.:26:28.

time to action. Thank you, Lr Speaker. As a number of my

:26:29.:26:32.

honourable friend is on these benches have said, this is the first

:26:33.:26:35.

time we have had to take such a serious decision, and it is not one

:26:36.:26:39.

that we take lightly. We do not ask the question of whether or not we

:26:40.:26:43.

should tackle Daesh, but wh`t is the most effective means of doing so. I

:26:44.:26:52.

will give way very quickly. The right member made a point e`rlier

:26:53.:26:57.

today about Daesh. Does my honourable friend agree with me

:26:58.:27:00.

there has been a lack of discussion from the Government about how to

:27:01.:27:04.

choke off the money is suppliers propaganda? That is something picked

:27:05.:27:09.

up in the foreign affairs rdport. But first I want to touch upon this.

:27:10.:27:13.

When we think about how we vote tonight, we think about the lessons

:27:14.:27:17.

we have learned, and I respdct everybody in this House reg`rdless

:27:18.:27:20.

of which lobby they go throtgh tonight. We learn from the fact of

:27:21.:27:25.

Libya, and that we spent ?320 million bomb in the country, and

:27:26.:27:31.

millions of pounds in reconstruction. And we learned from

:27:32.:27:36.

catastrophic failure of post-conflict reconstruction in Iraq

:27:37.:27:39.

that led to the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives of the political

:27:40.:27:41.

vacuum in that country that has led to many of the problems that we see

:27:42.:27:46.

today for the Mr Speaker, it has been a privilege for me to sit on

:27:47.:27:49.

the Foreign Affairs Committde, and I pay particular credit to thd

:27:50.:27:53.

chairman. We will go through different lobbies tonight, but I pay

:27:54.:27:58.

credit to his work. I also pay credit to the members for Ilford

:27:59.:28:03.

South and, and I'm sure all members will join me in wishing thel a

:28:04.:28:11.

speedy recovery. Mr Speaker, I hope you won't mind saying, you have

:28:12.:28:14.

about half an hour to read this you could skim read it, I would

:28:15.:28:17.

thoroughly recommend it. It sets a series of recommendations and is

:28:18.:28:22.

based on evidence, and I wotld thoroughly recommend it.

:28:23.:28:31.

Does he agree with me that the strategy according to the Prime

:28:32.:28:37.

Minister's statement last wdek is about a new Syrian government, but

:28:38.:28:40.

given that there is real dotbt about regime change, this is very

:28:41.:28:44.

unclear? We have not seen enough on the forward planning, and wd have

:28:45.:28:48.

not seen enough on the long,term planning, and that is a cause of

:28:49.:28:51.

concern for me and other melbers from the House. We need grotnd

:28:52.:28:56.

troops, but we have not heard enough on how we have got them. Whdre did

:28:57.:29:00.

the 70,000 come from? I raised this with the Foreign Secretary back in

:29:01.:29:04.

July, and this was something that...

:29:05.:29:08.

THE SPEAKER: The honourable gentleman has the floor. It would be

:29:09.:29:12.

a courtesy Iffy Onuora will gentleman would respect my wish to

:29:13.:29:23.

allow others to ration it would be a courtesy if the gentleman would

:29:24.:29:27.

respect my wish to only be `nother 30 seconds. We don't want to fight a

:29:28.:29:38.

current war like a past war. I pay credit to members across thd House,

:29:39.:29:41.

and we want the same thing, which is to put an end to Daesh for good It

:29:42.:29:46.

is my view that taking the same old route into bombing without `

:29:47.:29:50.

long-term strategy will onlx lead to failure, and that is why I will be

:29:51.:29:55.

backing the multiparty amendment tonight.

:29:56.:30:03.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. May H say it has been a privilege to be `

:30:04.:30:07.

parliamentarian today listening to some fantastic contributions from

:30:08.:30:11.

across the entire house. Only a few weeks ago, one of Britain's's key

:30:12.:30:17.

allies was attacked by an unprecedented enemy. For centuries,

:30:18.:30:25.

Britain has taken the lead hn fighting tyranny and promothng

:30:26.:30:29.

democracy around the world. Daesh is the antithesis to everything we hold

:30:30.:30:33.

dear, and they must be stopped. Time is now to stand firm against our

:30:34.:30:37.

enemies. We cannot delay anx further or risk people being killed in

:30:38.:30:41.

streets. For those people that have contacted me to say that our streets

:30:42.:30:43.

are safer by saying out of the conflict, I feel they have only had

:30:44.:30:49.

part of the explanation. Dadsh will not think twice about slaughtering

:30:50.:30:52.

our citizens in the UK. Thex believe that our culture, our society and

:30:53.:30:55.

read things we believe it should be crushed. Even though we havd no

:30:56.:30:59.

military intervention in Syria currently, Daesh will still be

:31:00.:31:02.

threatening attacks on our country every civil day. Following this

:31:03.:31:07.

debate and listening to contributions across the Hotse, I

:31:08.:31:10.

reassured for the need for `ir strikes in Syria, especiallx as we

:31:11.:31:14.

have the position technologx available to us that will rdduce the

:31:15.:31:19.

number of civilian casualtids. Whilst we obviously cannot talk

:31:20.:31:21.

about particular intelligence, it is clear that Daesh headquarters in

:31:22.:31:26.

Raqqa is tweeting tens of thousands of messages a day in dozens of

:31:27.:31:29.

different languages, and we need to stop this. When asked whethdr or not

:31:30.:31:34.

this will encourage Daesh to attack us, it is clear we need to take out

:31:35.:31:37.

their recruitment operations, promoting jihad around the rest of

:31:38.:31:43.

the world. One of the key concerns I have that Isil may grow up

:31:44.:31:48.

elsewhere, and in order to stop this from happening, we need to grow very

:31:49.:31:52.

strong brand strategies. Thhs cannot be rushed, but it also cannot be

:31:53.:31:57.

delayed. Daesh are looking `t targets all the time. The atrocities

:31:58.:32:00.

in Paris could just as easily have been a London, and that are

:32:01.:32:05.

dangerous and we should stop -- start taking the fight to them. Mr

:32:06.:32:10.

Speaker, I conclude in brevhty as I have started. When one of otr key

:32:11.:32:13.

allies have been attacked, our freedoms, liberties are at risk

:32:14.:32:20.

When women are raped, children killed, gay people thrown off roofs

:32:21.:32:25.

and Christians decapitated, can we seriously stand by and watch? We

:32:26.:32:30.

absolutely have to act now. We have a decent diplomatic solution, a

:32:31.:32:32.

strong international aid pl`n, and the opposition forces desperately

:32:33.:32:38.

need respite from being att`cked on two fronts. I will not shy `way from

:32:39.:32:43.

my cause for a stronger diplomatic strategy, but this should bd at the

:32:44.:32:46.

same time as an aerial strategy in Syria. I will be voting in favour of

:32:47.:32:55.

military action this evening. Mr Speaker, I will be not be voting

:32:56.:32:59.

with the Government tonight, but I want to get on record that H

:33:00.:33:01.

unequivocally condemn those people who have been intimidating lembers

:33:02.:33:09.

of this House in the vote tonight. I know that honourable members weigh

:33:10.:33:12.

these issues are very heavily, and whatever side of the argument they

:33:13.:33:16.

come from, I absolutely givd them my full respect. Mr Speaker, I have not

:33:17.:33:20.

been convinced by the Government about the presence of 70,000

:33:21.:33:26.

moderate free Iraqi army forces on the ground. I think the Govdrnment

:33:27.:33:32.

has failed to make the case that they exist. They are made up of a

:33:33.:33:40.

number of whisper at groups -- desperate groups, some of sdveral

:33:41.:33:42.

thousand soldiers, some of just a few hundred. Unfortunately, the

:33:43.:33:47.

Government has also failed to make the case about the political site.

:33:48.:33:51.

One of the issues the Government did not address was the treatment of the

:33:52.:33:55.

Sunni majority in Iraq and the need to address that issue, becatse that

:33:56.:33:58.

will fundamentally undermind the future of Daesh more than any

:33:59.:34:03.

bombing campaign, and a bombing campaign without troops on the

:34:04.:34:09.

ground will not be effectivd. The Government has completely f`iled to

:34:10.:34:12.

make that case, and that is why I can't support them tonight.

:34:13.:34:17.

Mr Hilary Benn. Thank you, thank you very mtch, Mr

:34:18.:34:28.

Speaker. Before I respond to the debate, I would like to say this

:34:29.:34:37.

directly to the Prime Minister. Although my right honourabld friend,

:34:38.:34:40.

the Leader of the Opposition and I will walk into different division

:34:41.:34:44.

lobbies tonight, I am proud to speak from the same dispatch box `s him.

:34:45.:34:50.

My right honourable friend hs not a terrorist sympathiser. He is an

:34:51.:34:57.

honest, a principled, a decdnt and a good man. And I think the Prime

:34:58.:35:03.

Minister must now regret wh`t he said yesterday, and his failure to

:35:04.:35:07.

do what he should have done today, which is simply to say, I al sorry.

:35:08.:35:14.

Mr Speaker, we have had an hntense and impassioned debate, and rightly

:35:15.:35:19.

so, given the clear and present threat from Daesh. The gravhty of

:35:20.:35:23.

the decision that rests upon the shoulders and the consciencd of

:35:24.:35:26.

every single one of us, and the lives that we hold in our h`nds

:35:27.:35:31.

tonight. Whatever decision we reach, I hope we will treat one another

:35:32.:35:39.

with respect. We have heard a number of outstanding speeches and sadly

:35:40.:35:42.

time will prevent me from acknowledging them all. I would like

:35:43.:35:46.

to single out the contributhons both for and against the motion. From my

:35:47.:35:57.

honourable and right honour`ble friends, Barnsley Central,

:35:58.:36:00.

Wakefield, Wolverhampton Sotth East, Brent North, Liverpool West,

:36:01.:36:06.

Derby, Wirral West, Stoke-on-Trent North, Birmingham Ladywood `nd the

:36:07.:36:11.

honourable members for Reig`te, South West Wiltshire, Tonbrhdge and

:36:12.:36:18.

moorland, Chichester and Wells. The question which confronts us in a

:36:19.:36:22.

very complex conflict is at its heart very simple. What shotld we do

:36:23.:36:30.

with others to confront this threat to our citizens, our nation, other

:36:31.:36:35.

nations and the people who suffer under the cruel yoke of Daesh? The

:36:36.:36:41.

carnage in Paris brought hole to ask the clear and present danger we face

:36:42.:36:46.

from them. It could just as easily have been London or Glasgow or Leeds

:36:47.:36:51.

or Birmingham, and it could still be. And I believe that we h`ve a

:36:52.:36:57.

moral and practical duty to extend the action we are already t`king in

:36:58.:37:03.

Iraq to Syria. And I am all so clear and I say this to my colleagues

:37:04.:37:08.

that the conditions set out in the urgency resolution passed at the

:37:09.:37:11.

Labour Party conference in September have been met. We now have ` clear

:37:12.:37:21.

and unambiguous UN Security Council resolution 2249, paragraph five of

:37:22.:37:26.

which specifically calls on member states to take all necessarx

:37:27.:37:31.

measures, to redouble and coordinate their effort to prevent and suppress

:37:32.:37:38.

terrorist acts committed explicitly by Isil and to eradicate thd safe

:37:39.:37:43.

haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria.

:37:44.:37:48.

So the United Nations is asking us to do something. It is asking us to

:37:49.:37:54.

do something now. It is askhng us to act in Syria as well as in Hraq It

:37:55.:37:59.

was a Labour government, if the honourable gentleman would bear with

:38:00.:38:04.

me. It was a Labour governmdnt that helped to found the United Nations

:38:05.:38:10.

at the end of the Second World War. Why did we do so? Because wd wanted

:38:11.:38:13.

the nations of the world working together, to deal with thre`ts to

:38:14.:38:17.

international peace and sectrity and Daesh is unquestionably that. So

:38:18.:38:24.

given that the United Nations has passed this resolution, givdn that

:38:25.:38:28.

such action would be lawful under Article 51 of the UN Charter,

:38:29.:38:32.

because every state has the right to defend itself, why would we not

:38:33.:38:38.

uphold the settled will of the United Nations, particularlx when

:38:39.:38:41.

there is such support from within the region, including from Hraq We

:38:42.:38:47.

are part of a coalition of over 60 countries standing together shoulder

:38:48.:38:51.

to shoulder, to oppose their ideology and their brutalitx. Mr

:38:52.:38:56.

Speaker, all of us understand the importance of bringing an end to the

:38:57.:38:59.

Syrian Civil War, and there is now some progress on a peace pl`n

:39:00.:39:03.

because of the Vienna talks. They are the best hope we have of

:39:04.:39:08.

achieving a ceasefire. That would bring an end to Assad's bombing

:39:09.:39:12.

leading to a transitional government and elections. Why is that vital?

:39:13.:39:17.

Both because it would help hn the defeat of Daesh and because it would

:39:18.:39:21.

enable millions of Syrians, who have been forced to flee, to do what

:39:22.:39:31.

every refugee dreams of. Thdy just want to be able to go home. Mr

:39:32.:39:34.

Speaker, no one in this deb`te doubts the deadly serious threat we

:39:35.:39:40.

face from Daesh and what thdy do although sometimes we find ht hard

:39:41.:39:44.

to live with the reality. Wd know that in June four gay men wdre

:39:45.:39:50.

thrown off the fifth story of the building in Assyrian city -, a

:39:51.:39:59.

Syrian city. We know in Augtst, the 82-year-old guardian of the

:40:00.:40:04.

antiquities of Palmyra was beheaded and his headless body was htng from

:40:05.:40:11.

a traffic light. And we know that in recent weeks there has been the

:40:12.:40:15.

discovery of mass graves in Sinjar, once said to contain the bodies of

:40:16.:40:20.

older Yazidi women murdered Daesh because they were judged to old to

:40:21.:40:27.

be sold for sex. We know thdy have killed 30 British tourists hn

:40:28.:40:32.

Tunisia, 224 Russian holidax-makers on a plane, 178 people in sticide

:40:33.:40:41.

bombings in Beirut, Ankara `nd 30 people in Paris, including the young

:40:42.:40:45.

people in the Bataclan, whol Daesh, in trying to justify their bloody

:40:46.:40:52.

slaughter called them apost`tes engaged in prostitution and vice. If

:40:53.:40:59.

it had happened here, they could have been our children, and we know

:41:00.:41:04.

they are plotting more attacks. So the question for each of us, and our

:41:05.:41:09.

national security is this: Given that we know what they are doing,

:41:10.:41:14.

can we really stand aside and refuse to act fully in our self defence

:41:15.:41:18.

against those who are plannhng these attacks? Can we really leavd to

:41:19.:41:23.

others the responsibility for defending our national security when

:41:24.:41:29.

it is our responsibility? And if we do not act, what message wotld that

:41:30.:41:34.

send about our solidarity whth those countries that have suffered so

:41:35.:41:40.

much, including Iraq and our ally France? Now France wants us to stand

:41:41.:41:46.

with them, and President Hollande, the leader of our sister Socialist

:41:47.:41:52.

party has asked for our asshstance and help. And as we are unddrtaking

:41:53.:42:01.

air strikes in Iraq where D`esh s hold has been reduced, and we are

:42:02.:42:05.

already doing everything but engaging air strikes in Syrha,

:42:06.:42:10.

should we not play our full part? Mr Speaker, it has been argued in the

:42:11.:42:15.

debate that air strikes achheve nothing. Not so. Look at how

:42:16.:42:19.

Daesh's forward march has bden halted in Iraq. The House whll

:42:20.:42:24.

remember that 40 months ago people were saying, they are almost at the

:42:25.:42:29.

gates of Baghdad and that is why we voted to respond to the Irapi

:42:30.:42:34.

government's request for help to defeat them. Look at how thdir

:42:35.:42:37.

military capacity and freedom of movement has been put under

:42:38.:42:43.

pressure. Ask the Kurds abott Sinjar and Kobane. Of course, air strikes

:42:44.:42:48.

alone will not defeat Daesh. But they make a difference. Bec`use they

:42:49.:42:55.

are giving them a hard time and it is making it more difficult for them

:42:56.:43:01.

to expand their territory. H share the concerns that have been

:43:02.:43:04.

expressed this evening about potential civilian casualtids.

:43:05.:43:09.

However, unlike Daesh, none of us today act with the intent to harm

:43:10.:43:16.

civilians. Rather, we act to protect civilians from Daesh. They target

:43:17.:43:23.

innocent people. On the subject of ground troops to defeat Daesh, there

:43:24.:43:27.

has been much debate about the figure of 70,000, and the Government

:43:28.:43:31.

must I think better explain that. But we know most of them ard

:43:32.:43:35.

apparently engaged in fighthng President Assad, but I tell you what

:43:36.:43:40.

else we know. Whatever the number, 70,000, 40,000, 80,000, the current

:43:41.:43:46.

side of the opposition forcds mean the longer we leave taking `ction,

:43:47.:43:50.

the longer Daesh will have two decrease that number. And so to

:43:51.:43:56.

suggest, Mr Speaker, that ahr strikes should not take place until

:43:57.:43:59.

the Syrian Civil War comes to an end, is I think to miss the urgency

:44:00.:44:04.

of the terrorist threat that Daesh poses to us and others, and I think

:44:05.:44:09.

misunderstands the nature and objectives of the extension to air

:44:10.:44:14.

strikes that is being proposed. Of course we should take action. It is

:44:15.:44:18.

not a contradiction between the two to cut off Daesh's support hn the

:44:19.:44:22.

form of money and fighters `nd weapons, and of course we should

:44:23.:44:27.

give humanitarian aid, and of course we should offer shelter to lore

:44:28.:44:31.

refugees including in this country and yes, we should commit to play

:44:32.:44:36.

our full part in helping to rebuild Syria win the war is over. Now, I

:44:37.:44:42.

accept that there are legithmate arguments and we have heard that in

:44:43.:44:47.

the debate, for not taking this form of action now. It is also clear that

:44:48.:44:52.

many members have wrestled, and who knows, in the time that is left may

:44:53.:44:57.

still be wrestling with what the right thing to do is. But I say the

:44:58.:45:05.

threat is now and there are rarely, if ever, perfect circumstances in

:45:06.:45:12.

which to deploy military forces We had very powerful testimony from the

:45:13.:45:15.

Honourable member for a discreet earlier when she quoted that

:45:16.:45:21.

passage. I just want to read what the Kurdistan regional government

:45:22.:45:26.

high representative in London said last week and I quote: Last June,

:45:27.:45:34.

Daesh captured one third of Iraq overnight and a few months later

:45:35.:45:40.

attacked the Kurdistan region. Swift air strikes by Britain, America and

:45:41.:45:45.

France, and the actions of our own Peshmerga saved us. We now have a

:45:46.:45:53.

border of 650 miles with Dadsh. We have pushed them back and rdcently

:45:54.:46:00.

captured Sinjar. Again, Western air strikes were vital. But the old

:46:01.:46:07.

border with Iraq and Syria does not exist. Daesh fighters come `nd go

:46:08.:46:15.

across this fictional bound`ry. That is the argument, Mr Speaker, for

:46:16.:46:22.

treating the two countries `s one, if we are serious about defdating

:46:23.:46:26.

Daesh. Mr Speaker, I hope the Housd will

:46:27.:46:32.

bear with me if I direct my closing remarks to my Labour friends and

:46:33.:46:34.

colleagues on this side of the House. As a party, we have `lways

:46:35.:46:40.

been defined by our international is. We believe we have a

:46:41.:46:45.

responsibility one to anothdr. We never have and we never shotld walk

:46:46.:46:50.

by on the other side of the road. And we are here faced by fascists.

:46:51.:46:59.

Not just their calculated brutality, but their belief that they `re

:47:00.:47:03.

superior to every single ond of us in this chamber tonight, and all of

:47:04.:47:08.

the people that we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold our

:47:09.:47:13.

values in contempt. They hold our belief in decency in contempt. They

:47:14.:47:21.

hold our democracy in contelpt. And what we know about fascists is they

:47:22.:47:29.

need to be defeated. And it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialists

:47:30.:47:35.

and trade unionists and othdrs joined the International Brhgade in

:47:36.:47:40.

the 1930s to fight against Franco. It is why this entire house stood up

:47:41.:47:46.

against Hitler and Mussolinh. It is why our party has always stood up

:47:47.:47:50.

against the Delisle of human rights and for justice -- the deni`l of

:47:51.:47:57.

human rights. My view is we must now confront this evil. It is now time

:47:58.:48:05.

for us to do our bit in Syrha. And that is why I ask my colleagues to

:48:06.:48:07.

vote for this motion tonight. APPLAUSE

:48:08.:48:49.

THE SPEAKER: I call the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth.

:48:50.:48:53.

Philip Hammond. Mr Speaker, I congratulate the right

:48:54.:49:00.

honourable member for Leeds Central on outstanding case for the motion

:49:01.:49:03.

tonight. That the will go down as one of the truly great speeches made

:49:04.:49:08.

in this House of Commons. Mr Speaker, the proposal beford the

:49:09.:49:12.

House is clear, it is simpld and it is specific. To extend the `ir

:49:13.:49:18.

strikes, we are already carrying out against Isil in Iraq, across a

:49:19.:49:23.

border they themselves do not recognise, into their heartland in

:49:24.:49:26.

Syria. The Prime Minister sdt out the compelling arguments in favour

:49:27.:49:32.

of taking this action as part of a comprehensive strategy for Syria. In

:49:33.:49:36.

response, the Leader of the Opposition set out his well,known

:49:37.:49:42.

and well-understood principled objections to military intervention.

:49:43.:49:47.

Objections he has developed over many years and which are obviously

:49:48.:49:52.

sincerely held. I respect those objections as such, although I

:49:53.:49:56.

believe them to be profoundly misguided. But it is clear, Mr

:49:57.:50:02.

Speaker from the Shadow Fordign Secretary's speech from the speeches

:50:03.:50:05.

69 of the right honourable lember for Derby South and Kington

:50:06.:50:10.

responsible Hull West and m`ny other members on the benches opposite --

:50:11.:50:15.

Kingston upon Hull, that for many, the real issue of consciencd at

:50:16.:50:19.

stake here is our obligation to act in the best interest of the UK and

:50:20.:50:24.

for the protection of British citizens. Mr Speaker, to me, one of

:50:25.:50:29.

the most interesting parts of the Leader of the Opposition's speech

:50:30.:50:35.

was his repeated refusal to confirm that it is his party's policy to

:50:36.:50:41.

support the current action hn Iraq, that this House voted overwhelmingly

:50:42.:50:45.

for in September 2014. Not only is he opposed to extending

:50:46.:50:49.

action to protect Britain against Daesh, but we have to assumd, from

:50:50.:50:54.

his silence, that he wants to roll back the action we are taking now in

:50:55.:50:58.

Iraq, to protect the Kurds, the Yazidis and others and to stpport

:50:59.:51:03.

the steady erosion of Isil control by the Iraqi security forces and the

:51:04.:51:10.

Peshmerga. I ask him, I ask the party opposite - is that now the

:51:11.:51:13.

position of the Labour Partx, despite...

:51:14.:51:22.

Despite its long and honour`ble tradition of fighting what The Right

:51:23.:51:26.

Honourable member for Leeds Central himself has described as fascism. I

:51:27.:51:30.

hope we'll have a confirmathon, Mr Speaker, as soon as possibld, that

:51:31.:51:33.

the Labour Party remains colmitted to the current action in Ir`q. Mr

:51:34.:51:39.

Speaker, I won't, I'm afraid because time is very short. Mr Speaker,

:51:40.:51:44.

today I believe we have seen this House at its best. 104 membdrs in

:51:45.:51:49.

total have spoken. We have heard forensic analysis and we've heard

:51:50.:51:54.

passionate conviction. I thhnk we can collectively be satisfidd that,

:51:55.:51:59.

as a House, we have done justice to the gravity of the subject we are

:52:00.:52:02.

debating. And with so many contributions and

:52:03.:52:08.

only a few minutes remaining, I hope honourable and right honour`ble

:52:09.:52:10.

members will forgive me if H don't try to acknowledge them all

:52:11.:52:14.

individually but I will do ly best to try to address the princhpal

:52:15.:52:18.

theme and questions that have arisen during this debate. I think one of

:52:19.:52:23.

the key issues that is clearly come out is a need to understand what is

:52:24.:52:28.

the military plan, and who hs going to deliver it? I have to sax, Mr

:52:29.:52:32.

Speaker, there appears to bd some confusion about this. Let md try to

:52:33.:52:37.

clarify it. We are all agredd n this House, that air strikes -- hn this

:52:38.:52:41.

House, that air strikes alone will not finish Isil. But air strikes

:52:42.:52:48.

will deliver immediate benefit. They will reduce Isil's external attacks,

:52:49.:52:52.

planning capability, making Britain safer and they will, over thme,

:52:53.:52:56.

degrade Isil and force a ch`nge in its behaviour. But they will not,

:52:57.:53:03.

alone, create a vacuum. And honourable members, during the

:53:04.:53:07.

course of this debate, some have sought to have it both ways. Bombing

:53:08.:53:12.

Isil in Raqqa won't make a difference, and at the same time,

:53:13.:53:17.

bombing Isil in Raqqa will immediately create a power vacuum.

:53:18.:53:23.

Ultimately Mr Speaker there will need to be a ground assault on

:53:24.:53:26.

Raqqa, supported by continudd air strikes. But as The Right Honourable

:53:27.:53:33.

lady from Pontefract observdd, that won't come in day or weeks, that

:53:34.:53:38.

will s come in months, perh`ps even years. That will be before ht

:53:39.:53:42.

begins, never mind before it ends. We've had questions about ground

:53:43.:53:45.

forces. Where are the ground forces going to come from? The context of

:53:46.:53:53.

this is a comprehensive str`tegy, a military track against Isil and a

:53:54.:53:58.

political track against Ass`d and the time for retaking Isil's

:53:59.:54:04.

heartland in Syria will be when the civil war has ended, a transitional

:54:05.:54:08.

government is in place and when the world can then, once again, support

:54:09.:54:14.

the Syrian government. So that the Syrian Army, the Syrian opposition

:54:15.:54:20.

force, the Kurdish forces, can turn their guns on Isil, liberathng their

:54:21.:54:25.

own country this evil organhsation. Supported by the coalition, with

:54:26.:54:31.

weapons w training, with technical support -- with training, tdchnical

:54:32.:54:36.

support, intelligence and ahrpower. Mr Speaker much has been made during

:54:37.:54:41.

the course of the debate about the number of opposition fighters

:54:42.:54:43.

available to join in that effort. The number of 70,000 is a ntmber

:54:44.:54:47.

produced by the Joint Intelligence Committee. It is a number

:54:48.:54:51.

corroborated by the evidencd of our US allies. But the situation on the

:54:52.:54:57.

ground is complex. There is a spectrum of views included hn that

:54:58.:55:04.

70,000-strong force. Yes, it includes a large element of

:55:05.:55:08.

secularists, who have views that we would recognise as democrathc. And

:55:09.:55:15.

yes, it also includes Islamhsts But there are Islamists in the

:55:16.:55:21.

Parliaments of cue want Tunhsia We can work -- of Kuwait and Ttnisia.

:55:22.:55:25.

We can work with Islamists who accept the democratic process and

:55:26.:55:30.

are prepared to take part in it The second issue that has arisen during

:55:31.:55:35.

the course of this debate is a question about the overall strategy.

:55:36.:55:41.

The Prime Minister was absolutely clear that military action hs just

:55:42.:55:44.

one part of a comprehensive strategy there. Has to be a political track

:55:45.:55:48.

and there has to be a humanhtarian track. It is clear that we have to

:55:49.:55:52.

pursue the political track hn parallel with the military. It is

:55:53.:55:57.

the only way to end the civhl war in Syria, and bring about the defeat of

:55:58.:56:09.

Isil. Now we have an intern`tional Syria Support Group, the Vidnna

:56:10.:56:13.

group. That's a major changd, bringing together all the

:56:14.:56:17.

international players behind a common vision to end the war,

:56:18.:56:20.

including Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, as well as the US, TK,

:56:21.:56:26.

France, Turkey and China. For the first time, all these countries have

:56:27.:56:32.

accepted the need for Syrian-led, Syrian-owned, political transition,

:56:33.:56:36.

based on the Geneva principles, a transition that will leave the

:56:37.:56:41.

institutions of the state in tact, avoiding the mistakes that were made

:56:42.:56:46.

in Iraq. Now, of course differences remain between the parties,

:56:47.:56:50.

particularly about how Assad will transition out. But, they h`ve

:56:51.:56:58.

agreed together a time framd for political negotiations, including

:56:59.:57:00.

transitional government within six months and a new constitution and

:57:01.:57:05.

free and fair elections within 8 months. And Mr Speaker, I know that

:57:06.:57:09.

there are those who question the commitment of the United St`tes or

:57:10.:57:14.

the engagement of Russia in this process. So I want, if I max, to

:57:15.:57:18.

quote from a letter that I have received this morning from the

:57:19.:57:22.

United States' Secretary of State, John Kerry. He says, "The United

:57:23.:57:29.

States has long-believed th`t while military action can reinforce

:57:30.:57:31.

diplomacy, there can be no lilitary solution to the civil war in Syria.

:57:32.:57:37.

We have to pursue a politic`l track. And at the same time, there can be

:57:38.:57:42.

no political deal with Daesh. They have to be degraded by military

:57:43.:57:47.

force." He goes on to say, Lr Speaker, "The Vienna process

:57:48.:57:51.

presents the best nunt four years for an a-- the best opportunity in

:57:52.:57:55.

four years to establish a cdasefire and create a political procdss,

:57:56.:57:59.

leading to a new constitution and democratic elections." Importantly,

:58:00.:58:05.

he concludes by telling me this "Senior Russian officials h`ve

:58:06.:58:08.

helped lead the effort to fhnd a common way forward and have

:58:09.:58:13.

expressed firm commitment to the Geneva principles. Russian leaders

:58:14.:58:17.

have indicated both publiclx and privately, on numerous occasions,

:58:18.:58:23.

that they are open to a polhtical transition, including a new

:58:24.:58:27.

constitution and elections." Mr Speaker, the third issue that has

:58:28.:58:32.

come up several times during the course of today has been thd

:58:33.:58:36.

question of whether air strhkes will make a difference. The right

:58:37.:58:39.

honourable member for Leeds Central and several other members h`ve made

:58:40.:58:47.

the point that they have bedn effective in halting the prdsited

:58:48.:58:53.

advance of Daesh in Iraq last year and are now contributing to the

:58:54.:58:57.

eroded positions of Daesh in Iraq. The UK already provides a

:58:58.:58:59.

significant element of the high precision strike available to the

:59:00.:59:04.

coalition. And that high prdcision strike will be vital it the campaign

:59:05.:59:11.

in Raqqa. The honourable melber for Birmingham Northfeel asked `bout

:59:12.:59:13.

rules of engagement. They are classified but I can tell hhm the

:59:14.:59:18.

UK's rules of engagement ard among the most rezwrifct in the world but

:59:19.:59:27.

bringing British discipline, skills and weapons to bear will save lives

:59:28.:59:32.

as we prosecute this campaign. We'll minimise civilian casualties. Mr

:59:33.:59:37.

Speaker, there is no military logic and no moral logic to prosecuting

:59:38.:59:42.

Isil in Iraq but not targethng its HQ in Syria.

:59:43.:59:54.

And finally, Mr THE and fin`l poly-Mr Speaker, will Britahn taking

:59:55.:59:57.

part in air strikes increasd the threat to our security? In 2014

:59:58.:00:03.

there were 15 Isil external attack plans. In this year so far there

:00:04.:00:11.

have been 150. The scale of this problem is rising compoencely. Isil

:00:12.:00:21.

already -- exopentially. Ishl already poses a problem. Brhtish

:00:22.:00:27.

tourists killed on the beaches in Tunisia and what could have been a

:00:28.:00:34.

British plane downed over Shnai Seven plots disrupted by thd

:00:35.:00:36.

Security Services in the UK in the last 12 months. The judgment of the

:00:37.:00:40.

Joint Intelligence Committed and the Director-General of the Sectrity

:00:41.:00:44.

Service is that the UK is already a top tier of Isil's target lhst. They

:00:45.:00:48.

hate us for who we are, not for what we do. And we have to be cldar, that

:00:49.:00:55.

the risks of inaction, as The Right Honourable lady for Derby South I

:00:56.:00:59.

think was the first to say, the risks of inaction are far greater

:01:00.:01:04.

than the risks of action. Wd have to act now to degrade this thrdat to

:01:05.:01:08.

our security and we will do it by targeting their heartland and their

:01:09.:01:12.

Control Centre. Mr Speaker, we are not debating

:01:13.:01:16.

tonight, as some would have us believe, whether or not to go to

:01:17.:01:22.

war. 15 months ago this House voted overwhelmingly to begin air strikes

:01:23.:01:27.

against Isil in Iraq. The shmple question we are deciding tonight is

:01:28.:01:32.

whether to extend those operations to tackle Isil in its heartland in

:01:33.:01:37.

Syria, targeting the head of the snake. This is not a fight that we

:01:38.:01:43.

have chosen. By the atrocithes they have committed, by the murddrous

:01:44.:01:46.

regime of brutality and terror they've inflicted on the people of

:01:47.:01:56.

Iraq and Syria and by their clear inp tent and capability to strike us

:01:57.:02:00.

here in the UK and British citizens abroad, Isil have made that choice

:02:01.:02:06.

for us. To answer the questhon for my right honourable friend for

:02:07.:02:09.

gainsry, yes, they represent a direct and imminent threat to the UK

:02:10.:02:13.

and British citizens. So thd decision tonight is this - do we

:02:14.:02:17.

take the fight to them or do we wait for them to bring the fight to us?

:02:18.:02:23.

Do we strike them in Syria, or do we wait for them to strike us on the

:02:24.:02:28.

streets of London? What kind of a country would we be if we rdfused to

:02:29.:02:33.

act in the face of a threat to our security, as deleer as the one that

:02:34.:02:38.

Isil poses? -- as clear. Indeed Mr Speaker, what kind of a

:02:39.:02:44.

country would we be, if we were unproved by the murder, the rain,

:02:45.:02:49.

the beheadings and slavery that Isil imposes on its subjects.

:02:50.:02:55.

And with what kind of a country would we be, if we ignored the calls

:02:56.:03:00.

for help from our nearest neighbours, even as they grheve for

:03:01.:03:07.

their dead? Mr Speaker, we cannot contract out responsibility for our

:03:08.:03:12.

national security. We cannot rely on others to take actions to protect

:03:13.:03:17.

our citizens that we are not willing to take ourselves. So, Mr Speaker,

:03:18.:03:23.

the threat is clear. Our abhlity to respond to it is undoubted. The

:03:24.:03:26.

moral imperative to act is compelling. The legal case to do so

:03:27.:03:34.

is watertight. We do not propose military action lightly and we do

:03:35.:03:40.

not propose it in isolation. We will vigorously pursuit Vienna process to

:03:41.:03:45.

ceasefire, transition and a new representative government in Syria

:03:46.:03:48.

and we will lead the intern`tional community in planning and ddlivering

:03:49.:03:52.

post-conflict reconstruction. But let us tonight give a clear and

:03:53.:03:59.

simple message to our allies, to the enemy and to the braved Armdd Forces

:04:00.:04:04.

who we are asking to do the job for us -. Let us show beyond dotbt what

:04:05.:04:09.

kind of a country we are, bx endorsing decisively the motion

:04:10.:04:10.

before us this evening. Order. I call Mr John Baron to move

:04:11.:04:31.

the amendment formerly. Movd the amendment formerly. The question is

:04:32.:04:35.

that the amendment be made. As many are of the opinion say Aye. To the

:04:36.:04:44.

contrary, No. Division, cle`red the lobby!

:04:45.:05:24.

The question before the House today is how we keep the British people

:05:25.:05:31.

safe from the threat posed by Isil. Mr Speaker, let me be clear from the

:05:32.:05:35.

outset, this is not whether we want to fight terrorism. It is how best

:05:36.:05:42.

we do that. I respect that people of all political colours in thhs

:05:43.:05:46.

country have had to fight terrorism. I respect people who come

:05:47.:05:49.

to a different view of the Government that I will set out

:05:50.:05:54.

today, and those who vote accordingly. We face a fund`mental

:05:55.:05:59.

threat to our security. Isil have brutally murdered British hostages.

:06:00.:06:03.

They have inspired the worst terrorist attack against Brhtish

:06:04.:06:08.

people since 7/7 on the beaches of Tunisia. Since November last year,

:06:09.:06:17.

our security services have foiled no less than seven security plots.

:06:18.:06:21.

Question is this, do we work with our allies to degrade and ddstroy

:06:22.:06:26.

this threat, and do we go after these terrorists in their hdartlands

:06:27.:06:29.

from where they are plotting to kill British people, or do we sit back

:06:30.:06:33.

and wait for them to attack us? We have a proper motion before this

:06:34.:06:38.

House and we are having a tdmplate five-hour debate today. I look

:06:39.:06:41.

forward to hearing the rest of the debate. I look forward to hdaring

:06:42.:06:46.

the contributions from membdrs on all sides of the House. I hope the

:06:47.:06:53.

House will come together and play our part in defeating these evil

:06:54.:06:58.

extremists and take action to keep this country safe.

:06:59.:07:01.

Taking a decision that will put British servicemen and women in harm

:07:02.:07:05.

's way, and will almost inevitably lead to the deaths of innocdnts is a

:07:06.:07:13.

heavy responsibility. It must be treated with the utmost serhousness

:07:14.:07:17.

and respect, given to those who make a different judgment about the right

:07:18.:07:21.

course of action to take. Which is why the Prime Minister's attempt to

:07:22.:07:27.

brand those who plan to votd against the Government as terrorist

:07:28.:07:30.

sympathisers, both demeans the Office of the Prime Minister and, I

:07:31.:07:35.

believe, undermines the serhousness of deliberations we are havhng

:07:36.:07:40.

today. If the Prime Minister now wants to apologise for thosd

:07:41.:07:43.

remarks, I would be happy to give way to him to do so.

:07:44.:07:57.

Since, Mr Speaker, the Primd Minister is unmoved, we will have to

:07:58.:08:00.

move on with the debate. It is impossible I think to avoid the

:08:01.:08:06.

conclusion that the Prime Mhnister understands that public opinion is

:08:07.:08:10.

moving increasingly against what I believe to be an ill thought out

:08:11.:08:18.

rushed to war. He wants to hold this vote before the opinion grows even

:08:19.:08:23.

further against them. Whethdr it is a lack of strategy with the name,

:08:24.:08:28.

the lack of ground troops, the missing diplomatic plan for a Syrian

:08:29.:08:33.

settlement, the failure to `ddress the terrorist threat, or thd refugee

:08:34.:08:37.

crisis and civilian casualthes, it is becoming increasingly cldar that

:08:38.:08:41.

the Prime Minister's propos`l for military action simply do not stack

:08:42.:08:44.

up. There is agreement across this House

:08:45.:08:48.

that the threat from Daesh hs real and doing nothing is not an option.

:08:49.:08:54.

However, we recall that onlx two years ago, this Prime Minister, this

:08:55.:09:02.

government, wanted us to on the opponents of Daesh, which would have

:09:03.:09:06.

no doubt strengthened them. I believe the Government has not

:09:07.:09:09.

answered the questions posed by the Foreign Affairs Select Commhttee, in

:09:10.:09:13.

fact, neither do a majority who voted on the issue in the foreign

:09:14.:09:18.

affairs committee. In the circumstances, Mr Speaker, we cannot

:09:19.:09:22.

support the Government. This is not about provoking a new

:09:23.:09:27.

confrontation with Daesh. They have already confronted peace and decency

:09:28.:09:32.

and humanity. We have seen what they are capable of in terms of

:09:33.:09:37.

beheadings, crucifixions, m`ss rape. We have seen the refugee crhsis that

:09:38.:09:41.

they have provoked in the Mhddle East with its terrible human cost.

:09:42.:09:46.

And we have seen their willhngness to export jihad whenever thdy are

:09:47.:09:50.

willing to do so. It is also not about bombing Syria per se, as is

:09:51.:09:56.

being portrayed outside. It is the extension of a military campaign

:09:57.:09:59.

that we are already following in Iraq, across what is in effdct a

:10:00.:10:07.

nonexistent border in the s`nd. There is absolutely no eviddnce of

:10:08.:10:12.

any kind that bombing Daesh, that bombing Raqqa, will result hn an

:10:13.:10:19.

upsurge of other people in the region to get rid of them. What it

:10:20.:10:30.

would do, might cause some damage, it won't undermine them. Wh`t it

:10:31.:10:38.

will undoubtedly do, despitd the insurances of the Prime Minhster,

:10:39.:10:43.

which I am sure are given in good faith, it will kill innocent

:10:44.:10:49.

civilians. And I am not going to be a party to killing innocent

:10:50.:10:56.

civilians for what will simply be a gesture.

:10:57.:11:02.

This is about people at war with us and our values and our socidty. This

:11:03.:11:08.

is not a war of choice. I h`ven t spoken to anyone, Mr Speaker, who

:11:09.:11:13.

did me is from the proposithon that Isil must be denied the territory

:11:14.:11:18.

that they currently control. And while the defeat of Isil and its

:11:19.:11:22.

ideology will be the work of many years and even decades, the retaking

:11:23.:11:28.

of this territory is an urgdnt and immediate requirement. This,

:11:29.:11:32.

therefore, is the mission. Whilst the Civil War rages in Syri`, it is

:11:33.:11:39.

virtually impossible to achheve that. That is the necessary first

:11:40.:11:43.

step. There are those not opposed in

:11:44.:11:47.

principle of action, who dotbt the efficacy of what is opposed,

:11:48.:11:52.

coalition effort which rests almost wholly on bombing, they say, will

:11:53.:11:57.

have little effect. Well, tdll that to the Kosovans. And don't forget,

:11:58.:12:01.

if there had been no bombing in Kosovo, perhaps a million Albanian

:12:02.:12:07.

refugees would have been sedking refuge in Europe.

:12:08.:12:10.

The short-term effect British air strikes will be marginal. I think

:12:11.:12:16.

most people accept that. But as we intervene more, we become more

:12:17.:12:20.

responsible for the events on the ground, and ourselves open to the

:12:21.:12:24.

unintended consequences of the fog of war. Without a comments of

:12:25.:12:29.

strategy, air strikes will simply reinforce the West's long-tdrm

:12:30.:12:34.

failure in the region gener`lly at a time when there are already too

:12:35.:12:37.

many aircraft chasing too fdw targets. I suggest that just as in

:12:38.:12:44.

previous ill-advised western interventions, a strong pattern

:12:45.:12:48.

emerges. Time and time again the executive makes a convincing case,

:12:49.:12:54.

often with supporting intelligent sources, and time and time `gain it

:12:55.:12:57.

is wrong. We must interrupt the umbilhcal cord

:12:58.:13:07.

of Raqqa, until we can demonstrate that we can scar and Hugh Mhllett

:13:08.:13:11.

Daesh, we wed be taken seriously by those who are attracted to do

:13:12.:13:18.

Daesh's bidding. Fracker is its commander control. It is from there

:13:19.:13:31.

it has controlled attacks in Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Afghanistan and

:13:32.:13:36.

Pakistan to create and comm`nd self in Europe.

:13:37.:13:40.

I could give you an dead after anecdote which would break xour

:13:41.:13:44.

heart, but one in particular is a 7 -year-old lad being lifted from a

:13:45.:13:53.

dinky on a beach in Lesbos, and my Arabic interpreter has just said

:13:54.:13:55.

that he said, daddy, is Isil here? I cannot stand in this House `nd

:13:56.:13:59.

castigate the Prime Minister for not taking enough refugees and for

:14:00.:14:01.

Britain not standing as tall as it should do in the world and open its

:14:02.:14:06.

arms to the desperate as we have done proudly through many, lany

:14:07.:14:11.

decades in history, if we do not do everything in our power to dradicate

:14:12.:14:14.

the source of people fleeing from that terror.

:14:15.:14:20.

Victory means bringing together their cover, ground forces `nd

:14:21.:14:26.

others. If we cannot take b`ck Mosul, how on earth can we take back

:14:27.:14:32.

Raqqa in Syria? That is why I was disappointed the Prime Minister was

:14:33.:14:35.

not able to specify just wh`t are the ground forces who will help us

:14:36.:14:39.

take back Raqqa under the cover of the RAF. That is the differdnce

:14:40.:14:44.

between Iraq and Syria. Irap there were ground forces, in Syri`, there

:14:45.:14:49.

are not. I do not want a half-hearted fight, I want ` full on

:14:50.:14:54.

fight. We are here faced by fascists. Not

:14:55.:14:59.

just their calculated brutality but their belief that they are superior

:15:00.:15:03.

to every single one of us in this chamber tonight, and all of the

:15:04.:15:08.

people that we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold otr values

:15:09.:15:13.

in contempt. They hold our belief intolerance and decency in contempt.

:15:14.:15:17.

They hold our democracy, thd means by which we will make our ddcision

:15:18.:15:22.

tonight, in contempt. What we know about fascists is they need to be

:15:23.:15:31.

defeated. And it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialist and trade

:15:32.:15:36.

unionists and others joined the International Brigade in thd 19 0s

:15:37.:15:41.

to fight against Franco. It is why this entire House stood up `gainst

:15:42.:15:47.

Hitler and Mussolini. It is why our party has always stood up against

:15:48.:15:51.

the denial of human rights `nd for justice. And my view, Mr Spdaker, is

:15:52.:15:59.

we must now confront this evil. It is now time for us to do our bit in

:16:00.:16:07.

Syria. And that is why I ask my colleagues to vote for this motion

:16:08.:16:08.

tonight. The ayes to the right, 211.

:16:09.:18:47.

The noes to the left, 390. Thank you, the ayes to the right

:18:48.:19:17.

211. The knows to the left, 390 So the knows sl it, the knows have it.

:19:18.:19:25.

Unlock. The question is the main question as on the order paper. As

:19:26.:19:32.

many are of that opinion sax aye. Of the contrary no. SHOUTS OF @YE AND

:19:33.:19:42.

NO Division, clear the lobby.

:19:43.:20:19.

The question before the House today is how we keep the British people

:20:20.:20:26.

safe from the threat pose bhd Isil. Mr Speaker, let me be clear from the

:20:27.:20:33.

outset. This is not about whether we want it fight terrorism. It is about

:20:34.:20:38.

how best we do that. I expect governments of all political colours

:20:39.:20:41.

in this country have had to fight terrorism and have had to t`ke the

:20:42.:20:46.

people with them when they do so and I respect people who come from a

:20:47.:20:49.

different view to the government and the one I'll set out today `nd those

:20:50.:20:53.

who vote accordingly. We face a fundamental threat to our sdcurity.

:20:54.:20:56.

Isil have brutally murdered British hostages. They have inspired the

:20:57.:21:01.

worst terrorist attack against British people since 7/7 on the

:21:02.:21:05.

beaches of Tunisia and they plotted atrocity after atrocity on the

:21:06.:21:09.

streets here at home. Since November last year our securities services

:21:10.:21:13.

have foiled no fewer than sdven different plots against our people.

:21:14.:21:16.

So this threat is very real. The question is this - do we work with

:21:17.:21:20.

our allies to degrade and ddstroy this threat and do we go after these

:21:21.:21:25.

terrorists in their heartlands, from where they are plotting to kill

:21:26.:21:28.

British people, or do we sit back and wait for them to attack us? We

:21:29.:21:32.

have a proper motion before this House and we are having a

:21:33.:21:35.

ten-and-a-half hour debate today. Now in that spirit, I look forward

:21:36.:21:39.

to the rest of the debate. H look forward to listening to the

:21:40.:21:41.

contributions of members on all sides of this House but I hope that

:21:42.:21:46.

at the end of it all, the House will come together in large numbdrs for

:21:47.:21:49.

Britain to play its part in defeating these evil extremhsts and

:21:50.:21:52.

taking the action that is ndeded now to keep our country safe. T`king a

:21:53.:22:00.

decision to put British servicemen and women in harm's way, and almost

:22:01.:22:05.

inevitably lead to the deaths of snnts a heavy responsibilitx. It

:22:06.:22:10.

must be treated with the utlost seriousness and respect givdn to

:22:11.:22:14.

those who make a different judgment about the right course of action to

:22:15.:22:22.

take. # which is why the Prhme Minister's attempt to brand those

:22:23.:22:27.

who plan to vote against thd Government as terrorist

:22:28.:22:30.

sympathisers, both demeans the office of the British and, H

:22:31.:22:33.

believe, undermines the serhousness of the deliberations we are having

:22:34.:22:39.

today. If the Prime Minister now wants to apologise for thosd

:22:40.:22:42.

remarks, I would be happy to give way to him to do so.

:22:43.:22:52.

Since, Mr Speaker, the Primd Minister is unmoved, we havd to move

:22:53.:22:58.

on with the debate. It's impossible, I think, Mr Speaker, to avohd the

:22:59.:23:04.

conclusion that the Prime Mhnister understands that public opinion is

:23:05.:23:10.

moving, increasingly, against what I believe to be an ill-thout-out rush

:23:11.:23:16.

to war. And he wants to hold this vote before the opinion grows even

:23:17.:23:20.

further against it. Whether it's a lack of strategy worth the name the

:23:21.:23:24.

absence of credible ground troops, the missing diplomatic plan for a

:23:25.:23:29.

Syrian settlement, the failtre to address the impact of the tdrrorist

:23:30.:23:33.

threat or the refugee crisis and civilian casualty, it is becoming

:23:34.:23:38.

increasingly clear that the Prime Minister's proposals for military

:23:39.:23:42.

action simply do not stack tp. There is agreement across this Hotse that

:23:43.:23:46.

the threat from Daesh is re`l, and doing nothing is not an opthon.

:23:47.:23:52.

However, however, we recall that only two years ago this Prile

:23:53.:23:56.

Minister, this Government w`nted us to bomb the owe uponents of Daesh,

:23:57.:23:59.

which would no doubt have strengthened them. -- oppondnts I

:24:00.:24:06.

believe that the Government has not answered the questions posed by the

:24:07.:24:09.

Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, in fact, neither

:24:10.:24:13.

do a majority who voted on the issue of the Foreign Affairs Select

:24:14.:24:15.

Committee. In these circumstances, Mr Speaker, we cannot support the

:24:16.:24:21.

Government. This is not abott provoking a new confrontation with

:24:22.:24:25.

Daesh. They have already confronted peace and decency and humanhty. We

:24:26.:24:32.

have seen what they are cap`ble of, in terms of beheadings,

:24:33.:24:35.

Crucifixions, mass rain. We have seen the refugee crisis that they

:24:36.:24:38.

have provoked in the Middle East with its terrible human cost. And we

:24:39.:24:44.

have seen their willingness to export jihad, whenever they are able

:24:45.:24:50.

to do so. It's also not abott bombing Syria, per se, as it is

:24:51.:24:54.

being portrayed outside. It is the he is steps of a military c`mpaign

:24:55.:24:57.

that we are already following in Iraq. Across what is, in effect a

:24:58.:25:05.

nonexistent border in the s`nd. But there is absolutely no eviddnce of

:25:06.:25:13.

any kind that bombing Daesh, that bombing radio ka will result in an

:25:14.:25:18.

upsurge of other people in the region to get rid of them. ,-

:25:19.:25:26.

bombing Raqqa. What it would do would - might cause some dalage it

:25:27.:25:35.

won't undermine them. What ht will undoubtedly do, despite the

:25:36.:25:38.

assurances of the Prime Minhster, which I'm sure he has given in good

:25:39.:25:44.

faith, it will kill innocent civilians. Hear, hear And I am not

:25:45.:25:52.

going to be a party to killhng innocent civilians for what will

:25:53.:25:59.

simply be a gesture. This is about people at war with us and otr values

:26:00.:26:04.

and our society. This is not a war of choice. And I haven't spoken to

:26:05.:26:10.

anyone, Mr Speaker, who demtrs from the proposition that Isil mtst be

:26:11.:26:13.

denied the territory that they currently control. And whilst the

:26:14.:26:22.

defeat of Isil and its ideology will the be work of many years and

:26:23.:26:26.

decades, the retaking of thhs territory is an urgent and hmmediate

:26:27.:26:29.

requirement. This, thereford, is the mission. Whilst the civil w`r rakes

:26:30.:26:34.

in Syria, it is virtually ilpossible to achieve that. That is thd

:26:35.:26:42.

necessary first step. -- civil war rages in Syria. There are those not

:26:43.:26:48.

opposed in principle to the action, who doubt the efficacy. A coalition

:26:49.:26:51.

action, that rests almost wholly on bombing, they say l have little

:26:52.:26:57.

effect. Well, tell that to the Kosovans and don't forget, hf there

:26:58.:27:02.

had been no bombing in Kosovo, perhaps a million Albanian Luslim

:27:03.:27:06.

Foulkes would have been seeking refuge in Europe. The short,term

:27:07.:27:11.

effect of British air strikds will be marginal, I think most pdople

:27:12.:27:15.

accept that but as we intervene more, we become more responsible for

:27:16.:27:20.

the events on the ground and lay ourselves open to the unintdnded

:27:21.:27:24.

consequences of the fog of war. Without a comprehensive str`tegy,

:27:25.:27:30.

air strikes will simply reinforce the West's long-term failurd in the

:27:31.:27:34.

region generally, at a time when there are already too many `ircraft

:27:35.:27:38.

chasing too few targets and I suggest, just as in previous

:27:39.:27:44.

ill-advised Western interventions, a strong pattern emerges, timd and

:27:45.:27:48.

time again the executive makes a convincing case, often with

:27:49.:27:50.

supporting intelligence sources and time and time again, it turns out to

:27:51.:27:55.

be wrong. We must break the umbilical cord that acts as an annor

:27:56.:28:03.

for Raqqa and acts as for destruction of Middle Easterners

:28:04.:28:06.

alike. Until we can demonstrate that we can scar and humiliate D`esh we

:28:07.:28:11.

will not be taken seriously by those who are attracted to Daesh's

:28:12.:28:14.

bidding. Raqqa is command and control. It is from there it plans

:28:15.:28:19.

its trial joys of terror to control parts of Syria and Iraq and to

:28:20.:28:26.

establish the provinces that have already been declared in Libya,

:28:27.:28:31.

Egypt, Syria Iraq, Saudi Ar`bia Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan and

:28:32.:28:35.

closer to home to create colmand and control cells in Europe. I can give

:28:36.:28:40.

anecdote after anecdote that would break your heart but one is a

:28:41.:28:45.

seven-year-old lad being lifted from a dinghy on a beach and my

:28:46.:28:51.

interpreter said to his dad - daddy, are Isil here, daddy are Ishl here.

:28:52.:28:55.

I cannot stand in this Housd and castigate the Prime Minister for not

:28:56.:28:59.

taking enough refugees and for Britain not standing tall as it

:29:00.:29:02.

should do in the world and open its arms to the desperate as we have

:29:03.:29:06.

done proudly for many decadds and throughout our history, if we do not

:29:07.:29:11.

also do everything in our power to eradicate that which is the source

:29:12.:29:14.

of the people fleeing from that terror. Victory means bringhng

:29:15.:29:18.

together air cover, ground forces and politics, too, and heavdns

:29:19.:29:21.

above, if we can't sustain that combination to take back Mosul, how

:29:22.:29:26.

on earth are we going to take Bacharach ka in Syria? That's why I

:29:27.:29:33.

was disappointed Mr Speaker the Prime Minister was not able to

:29:34.:29:38.

suppose spy the ground forcds to take Bacharach ka under the air

:29:39.:29:42.

cover of the RAF. That is the difference between Iraq and Syria.

:29:43.:29:48.

-- take back Ankara. I don't want a half-hearted fight. I

:29:49.:29:53.

want a fall-on fight. The Government don't have a plan for that. We are

:29:54.:29:59.

here faced by fascists, not just the calculated brutality but thdir

:30:00.:30:02.

belief they are superior to every single one of us in their chamber

:30:03.:30:05.

tonight and all of the people we represent. They hold us in contempt.

:30:06.:30:11.

They hold our values in contempt. They hold our belief, and tolerance

:30:12.:30:15.

and belief in decency in contempt. They hold our democracy, thd means

:30:16.:30:19.

by which we will make our ddcision tonight, in contempt. And what we

:30:20.:30:23.

know about fascists, is that they need to be defeated.

:30:24.:30:31.

And it is why, as we have hdard tonight, socialists and trade

:30:32.:30:35.

unionists and others joined the international brigade in thd 19 0s

:30:36.:30:39.

to fight against Franco. It is why this entire House stood up `gainst

:30:40.:30:45.

Hitler and Mussolini. It is why our party has always stood up against

:30:46.:30:50.

the denial of human rights `nd for justice. And my view, Mr Spdaker, is

:30:51.:30:58.

that we must now confront this evil. It is now time for us to do our bit

:30:59.:31:06.

in Syria. And that is why I ask my colleagues to vote for this motion

:31:07.:31:07.

tonight. Hear, hear. The Ayes to the right, 397. The Noes

:31:08.:35:13.

to the left, 323. The Ayes to the right, 397. The Noes to the left,

:35:14.:35:25.

223. The Ayes have it, the @yes have it. Unlock. Order, we come now to

:35:26.:35:32.

the petition. LAUGHTER

:35:33.:35:57.

I asked members leaving the Chamber, however unaccountably, please to do

:35:58.:36:09.

so quickly and quietly, so we can hear the petition from the right

:36:10.:36:16.

honourable lady, the member for Chesham and Amersham.

:36:17.:36:22.

Points of order, Doctor Philippa Whitford.

:36:23.:36:25.

Just really to thank the spdaker for going through all these hours of

:36:26.:36:31.

debate and as a doctor, could I say, that is not terribly healthx.

:36:32.:36:38.

I am extremely grateful to the honourable lady for what shd said. I

:36:39.:36:44.

take note of her health advhce but there have to be exceptions and I

:36:45.:36:50.

wanted to be here to hear every speech. I must thank colleagues for

:36:51.:36:57.

what was a remarkable and ddcent tone which characterised thd

:36:58.:37:00.

contributions over several hours. Point of order, Mr David Winick

:37:01.:37:07.

I want this on record that ht is unlikely that any previous speaker

:37:08.:37:10.

has ever done what you have done today, sit throughout withott a

:37:11.:37:15.

single break and I think thd whole House should congratulate you.

:37:16.:37:20.

Well, I'm Fred Slater dined honoured by what the honourable gentleman

:37:21.:37:27.

said. I sought no such compliment but the honourable gentleman first

:37:28.:37:30.

came into the House 49 years ago and he knows I hold in the highdst

:37:31.:37:35.

esteem and I thank him for luch The credit is for the House in the way

:37:36.:37:39.

it has conducted itself tod`y. I appreciate what he said. I will bank

:37:40.:37:47.

it while I can! Thank you, colleagues. Petition Mrs

:37:48.:37:55.

Cheryl Carter. I rise to present a petition from my

:37:56.:38:06.

constituent Mr Tom Perry and 23 people concerning the mandatory

:38:07.:38:11.

reporting of child abuse. The petition declares that child

:38:12.:38:16.

protection in regulated acthvities is dependent upon reporting

:38:17.:38:22.

procedure external to the contributions that arise. Ftrther,

:38:23.:38:34.

child protection is placed hn jeopardy by the absence of `ny

:38:35.:38:40.

direct statutory legal obligation to report the concern to the local

:38:41.:38:45.

authority or police. My pethtioner has therefore request that the House

:38:46.:38:48.

of Commons urges the Governlent to introduce legislation that requires

:38:49.:38:54.

persons in a position of trtst to work with children in regul`ted

:38:55.:38:59.

activities, and who know, stspect or have reasonable grounds for knowing

:39:00.:39:06.

or suspected child abuse, to inform the local authority designated

:39:07.:39:10.

officer, or in appropriate circumstances, children's sdrvices

:39:11.:39:18.

and make failure to inform ` criminal offence. They hope that

:39:19.:39:20.

this will improve the posithon and protection of children in the care

:39:21.:39:23.

of regulated activities. Petition, mandatory reporting of

:39:24.:39:42.

child abuse. Thank you. Order. We come now to the

:39:43.:39:51.

enjoyment. I beg to move th`t this House do now adjourn. The qtestion

:39:52.:39:57.

is that this House do now adjourn. Caroline Noakes.

:39:58.:40:02.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. You do not have to stay in the chair for the

:40:03.:40:05.

whole of this adjournment ddbate. You may notice I have a cro`ky voice

:40:06.:40:10.

so I will keep my remarks brief I certainly welcome the opportunity to

:40:11.:40:16.

raise this issue with the Mhnister. Hats that is inevitable as the

:40:17.:40:22.

Government produce house-buhlding and starts and completions `re up

:40:23.:40:27.

significantly. There are more new-build homes, therefore, with the

:40:28.:40:31.

potential to provoke complahnts I know my right honourable frhend for

:40:32.:40:35.

Basingstoke had a very similar debate in July and I'm award that

:40:36.:40:47.

the honourable friend is Inc -- conducting an enquiry on thhs issue.

:40:48.:40:54.

Sadly, these problems tend happen in isolation. Test Valley Borotgh,

:40:55.:40:59.

which covers the greater part of my constituency, has followed what the

:41:00.:41:03.

Government has asked of loc`l planning authorities. Over the last

:41:04.:41:06.

three years there has been dither the highest or second-highest number

:41:07.:41:12.

of housing completions in the whole of Hampshire within test Valley and

:41:13.:41:18.

that includes the two cities of Southampton and Portsmouth. Test

:41:19.:41:21.

Valley has consistently been in the top ten of the housing completions

:41:22.:41:28.

in the south-east region. Btt as you might expect, where you get high

:41:29.:41:32.

levels of house-building, you might also get high levels of complaints

:41:33.:41:36.

from new residents. Mr Speaker, buying a new home is an enormous

:41:37.:41:42.

step for most people. It is exciting, challenging and stressful,

:41:43.:41:45.

probably in equal measure. H think it is true to say moving hole is one

:41:46.:41:50.

of the most stressful things any individual, couple or familx can go

:41:51.:41:54.

through, but it is also exchting. How much more exciting when that is

:41:55.:41:59.

a new-build home, one that xou camp at your own mark on, one whhch has

:42:00.:42:04.

not been lived in by anybodx else? I know my honourable friend whll be

:42:05.:42:08.

delighted to hear that during the general election campaign e`rlier

:42:09.:42:11.

this year, I was out talking to residents in Abbotsford, a new 00

:42:12.:42:16.

home development on the edgd of Romsey. One resident invited me into

:42:17.:42:22.

her home, bought with help from the Government's Help to Buy scheme and

:42:23.:42:26.

proudly showed me a photogr`ph in her sitting room of her and her

:42:27.:42:31.

husband in Downing Street whth my right honourable friend the Prime

:42:32.:42:34.

Minister. For Lisa and her husband, there was nothing but joy at being

:42:35.:42:38.

in their own brand-new home. But sadly, that is not the case for

:42:39.:42:42.

everyone, and I request that this debate today, to highlight some of

:42:43.:42:47.

the challenges facing house purchases, of new-build properties

:42:48.:42:50.

when things do not go according to plan. I'm very conscious of your

:42:51.:42:59.

voice so I will not keep yot either. I understand there is a 10-xear

:43:00.:43:03.

warranty that anyone who buxs a new home house but it a very informal

:43:04.:43:10.

arrangement. Does the honourable lady think it is time for government

:43:11.:43:13.

to formalise the legislation and make sure the protection new buyers

:43:14.:43:23.

need for that Holmes is there? I know the honourable member for

:43:24.:43:25.

Strangford has an interest hn this area. The 10-year guarantee is a

:43:26.:43:33.

strategy. As a society, we have become incredibly aware of our

:43:34.:43:38.

consumer rights. When making substantial purchases we look for

:43:39.:43:43.

warranty is, assurance and customer service. There is no purchasing life

:43:44.:43:48.

more substantial than that of buying a house. Yet over the last 08

:43:49.:43:53.

months, some of my constitudnts have felt less protected than if they had

:43:54.:43:57.

for example ought a new car. The protections they believe thdy had

:43:58.:44:02.

and had taken for granted, `nd they assumed would come into acthon

:44:03.:44:07.

should there be a problem, have simply not had the effect that any

:44:08.:44:11.

reasonable consumer would w`nt. We all may we new-build properties

:44:12.:44:16.

there can be snagging probldms. Back in 1996I well remember buying a new

:44:17.:44:20.

house and there were some mhnor issues which did indeed need

:44:21.:44:24.

fixing. The builder came back and sorted them out. I remember the

:44:25.:44:27.

pride I had in that house, being able to put my own identity on it

:44:28.:44:31.

and how happy I was in that home. But what about when the isstes are

:44:32.:44:38.

not minor? This was the casd of my constituents even in and Ricardo.

:44:39.:44:42.

Some 18 months after they fhrst identified problems with thdir

:44:43.:44:46.

brand-new house, they remain in rented accommodation, paying a

:44:47.:44:49.

mortgage on a house which they cannot live in and unfortun`tely,

:44:50.:44:54.

still waiting for the builddrs, in this case Taylor Wimpey, who I get

:44:55.:44:59.

to remove the undersized cehling joists, some walls and the roof It

:45:00.:45:03.

sounds like a total rebuild. While they are in rented accommod`tion,

:45:04.:45:08.

one of their neighbours livdd in a hotel for six months. One of the

:45:09.:45:13.

problems I would like to dr`w to the minister's attention, is thd

:45:14.:45:17.

assumption by house-builders that building control is necessarily

:45:18.:45:20.

performed by the local authority. This is simply not the case. In many

:45:21.:45:25.

cases the building control checks are done instead by the warranty

:45:26.:45:31.

providers like the NAHB C. This can be for very good reasons. The

:45:32.:45:34.

warranty companies might prdfer it as they would then be providing the

:45:35.:45:38.

warranty for a building thex have been involved with from a vdry early

:45:39.:45:43.

stage. There are several inspections which take place at various stages,

:45:44.:45:48.

from checking the depth of foundation, for making sure cavities

:45:49.:45:52.

are the appropriate size, through to the pre-plaster chap. There is a log

:45:53.:45:56.

for each inspection which mx constituents argue should bd freely

:45:57.:46:00.

available automatically to the prospective purchaser. But, the

:46:01.:46:06.

customer is not necessarily aware of that, and there does have to be a

:46:07.:46:12.

better understanding that a local authority building control hnspector

:46:13.:46:15.

might never have seen the btilding and the local authority, bexond

:46:16.:46:19.

granting planning permission may have no direct interest in the

:46:20.:46:23.

subsequent build process. The assumption, however, that whoever

:46:24.:46:27.

has carried out the inspecthon process, might be that throtghout

:46:28.:46:30.

that process problems would be flagged up and the build process

:46:31.:46:34.

would be able to have them `mended, before it moved onto the next stage.

:46:35.:46:42.

I am conscious that my honotrable friend, the member for Basingstoke

:46:43.:46:46.

has raised in detail the fl`ws in the inspection scheme and how this

:46:47.:46:51.

might leave a homeowner mord vulnerable than they had evdr

:46:52.:46:55.

imagined when entering into a contract. I do not intend to repeat

:46:56.:47:01.

those arguments but I whollx endorse the view for a duty of care to be

:47:02.:47:05.

established between the homd inspectors and the buyer. Btt we

:47:06.:47:09.

also need to somehow conveydd to purchases that they need to be

:47:10.:47:13.

vigilant in this process and be aware that it might not be there

:47:14.:47:16.

local authority you have inspected the build. In the case of mx

:47:17.:47:22.

constituents, they feel verx much as if they have been pushed from pillar

:47:23.:47:27.

to post, with each one shrugging shoulders and all pointing back to

:47:28.:47:29.

the builder as the one who lust rectify the problems. That hs

:47:30.:47:35.

undoubtedly right. The NHBC system and other warranty providers require

:47:36.:47:39.

the builder to rectify the problem within the first two years. In the

:47:40.:47:45.

situation I outline, their builder, Taylor Wimpey, have accepted it is

:47:46.:47:49.

their responsibility to replace all the joists and trusses which had not

:47:50.:47:54.

been installed properly as required. And tonight, I understand the

:47:55.:47:58.

scaffolding is up and the roof will come off tomorrow. We must take the

:47:59.:48:03.

sun will be shining. However, where a defect is discovered and the

:48:04.:48:08.

builder refuses to carry out the remedial work, a free resolttion

:48:09.:48:12.

service is offered by the w`rranty providers. But what happens when the

:48:13.:48:15.

builder does agree to carry out the work that dragged their feet and is

:48:16.:48:21.

not that on with the repairs? And that is where my constituents first

:48:22.:48:25.

contacted me. They're bright, shiny new house at unacceptable ldvels of

:48:26.:48:29.

vibration. The investigations had revealed that the joists and trusses

:48:30.:48:33.

were acting independently of each other. They have to come out, the

:48:34.:48:37.

plaster all removed, feeling taken out and the roof will come. They

:48:38.:48:43.

contacted the local authority who quickly stated it was not their

:48:44.:48:48.

responsibility. But they cotld find no agent able to act as an

:48:49.:48:51.

intermediary between them and the builder, took said the pressure they

:48:52.:48:56.

wanted to make sure a speedx and appropriate remedy can be

:48:57.:48:59.

facilitated. For six months the family lived with no feelings after

:49:00.:49:04.

they had been stripped out. Walls were missing and their furnhture was

:49:05.:49:09.

in storage. For a further shx months, they lived in rented

:49:10.:49:13.

housing, expecting at any moment work to be started on what was meant

:49:14.:49:18.

to be their pride and joy, ` home for their boys. My constitudnts feel

:49:19.:49:22.

that for big purchases like houses, there should be some sort of

:49:23.:49:26.

protection, someone to speak up on their behalf to act as an

:49:27.:49:29.

intermediary. They believe there should be some sort of ombudsman and

:49:30.:49:35.

there are certainly some attraction to that idea.

:49:36.:49:42.

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