07/12/2015 House of Commons


07/12/2015

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point of order from the honourable gentleman. Statement, the Sdcretary

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of State, for the environment and rural affairs. With permisshon, Mr

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Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the impact of

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flooding in the North of England. As the House will know, this wdekend

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has brought some enormously difficult and extreme weathdr

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conditions. I would like to begin by expressing my deepest sympathy for

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all of those who have been `ffected. I would also like to commend the

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emergency responders, volunteers, and the environment agency who have

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been working tirelessly throughout the weekend, often in horrific

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conditions. People have comd from all over the country as far as South

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Wales, Lincolnshire, and other sectors to build. I'm sure the House

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will join with me in paying tribute to their work. And the generous

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community spirit of those who have been offering food, transport and

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beds to neighbours. Over thd course of Friday, the visa before, it

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became clear that the storm would bring an exceptionally high rainfall

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across the UK -- force of the summer. People were mobilisdd,

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leaving temporary defenses `nd pumps to northwest England through Friday.

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On Saturday morning it becale clear which counties would be imp`cted and

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that we would see very high levels of rainfall that evening. Therefore

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the government mobilised a full national emergency response copy at

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midday on Saturday, I held ` cross departmental meeting to assdss the

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impact shortly followed by the mobilised nation that 200 mhlitary

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personnel and supporting assets including making available `n

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helicopter. Local commanders were able to call upon more than 50 by

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Bob -- high-volume pumps, as well as tactical advisors and rescudrs from

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across the UK. Adding to ovdr 2 0 emergency responders alreadx on the

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ground. My honourable friend the floods Minister, travelled to

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Cumbria on Saturday to ensure the emergency responders on the ground

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without all that they need. He has remained in the Northwest route On

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Saturday night we saw an unprecedented amount of rainfall.

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More than a month's Lane from one-day. During Saturday night,

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Maine rivers all across country exceeded the highest levels ever

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recorded. There is a mark on the bridge showing the flood level in

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1853, 2005 flood was hired hn 1 53, which was the highest on record

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until then. This blood was half a metre higher again. It was .6 of a

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metre higher... .7 of a metre higher in Kassig and .3 of a metre higher

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in Apple B. Although over 8000 properties were protected bx our

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flood defenses, by Sunday morning over 3500 properties have floated

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across the country. With thd majority in Cumbria. And Carlyle,

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over 2000 properties flooded soppy over 600 flooded in both Kendall and

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tested, with over 200 and Appleby. Flooding was also seen in

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Northumberland. 50,000, 5000 properties lost power in Lancaster,

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following the flooding of the electricity station. Roads were

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closed across the Northwest and bridges damaged. A main lind was

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suspended. Tragically, I can also confirm to the House that there were

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a number of weather-related fatalities. With instance c`used or

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exacerbated by flooding or poor weather. I am sure the Housd would

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want to join with me to express our deepest sympathies to their families

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and friends. It is a tragic reminder of how dangerous these condhtions

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can be. On Sunday morning, H chaired a cross government cobra medting to

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ensure the emergency responders on the ground had all the resotrces

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they needed and to address hmmediate issues including the threat to the

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power supply in Lancaster and Carlisle. I spoke with comm`nders in

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the worst affected areas during the day to ensure they had suffhcient

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national resources to delivdr their emergency plans. The Prime Linister

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chaired a further cobra meeting this morning and is visiting the affected

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areas today. I am pleased to confirm to the House that progress hs being

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made on recovering some of the impacts copy the number of homes

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affected by power outages h`s been reduced to less than 5000, following

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restoration power in Lancaster substation. Electricity cophes are

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working around the clock to restore power as soon as possible. ,-

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alleges the companies. Transport remains disrupted across much of the

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area and many roads remained close the Mac closed. The mainlind remains

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suspended to Scotland and sdrvices are unlikely to be restored until

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Wednesday at the earliest. The government will continue to ensure

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that all resources are made available to support recovery from

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his flooding. Cover will continue to meet daily to oversee recovdry

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efforts and I will be travelling to Cumbria and Lancaster to continue to

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ensure we are doing all we can to help all those affected -- cobra

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will be meeting. I am pleasdd to confirm to the House, that ly

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colleague will be enabling the schemes of local authorities of

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those affected by floods. Some cost will be met by the government. We

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are announcing further support schemes over the coming days. Since

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2009, we have invested ?45 lillion in new defenses in Cumbria, but we

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will need to learn lessons `nd reflect on what we can learn from

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this extreme weather. In thd last Parliament, there was a rill terms

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increase in investment in flood defenses and in this Parlialent

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there will be another incre`se in spending. We are investing to 3p in

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1500 schemes throughout the country -- ?3 billion. Is also confhrmed

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that we are protecting flood maintenance spending throughout this

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Parliament as well as capit`l spending. Mr Speaker, I am sure the

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whole house would join me in expressing our sincere symp`thy to

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those who have been affected by this weekend's extreme weather

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conditions. I can assure thd House that the government will continue to

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do everything it can to support those affected. I commend the

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statement to be housed. Hear, hear! Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank the

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Secretary of State for her statement. I had to smoke and spoken

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to my honourable friend -- H had this morning spoken... To gdt an

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update on what's happening hn their constituencies, understanding they

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cannot be here this afternoon as they are with their constittents. I

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appreciate that the shadow linister for flooding is quite rightly in his

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constituency too. RPAS are with all of the amenities and Cumbri` and

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Lancaster, once again being devastated by flooding. And

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tragically announcing that ` number of people have lost their lhves Our

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deepest sympathy and condoldnces. I picture Butte to be emergency

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services and the Army who h`ve once again responded superbly. The

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immediate priority has to bd help for all those who have been forced

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to evacuate their homes and businesses and to make sure that

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everyone is safe, warm and well Communities like those in Ctmbria

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have been getting used to r`llying around and helping those who need

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shelter, food and clothing while they contemplate the state of their

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homes. They have been magnificent this time too. They are defhnitely

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worried that further rain is predicted for tomorrow and H hope

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that emergency response of which the environment secretary spoke is

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geared up to respond to that too. With the last major floods of

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2013-14, the diamonds did ddclare that money is no object in this

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relief effort. -- the Prime Minister declared. Business owners rdceived

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support from the government. I was pleased to hear the Prime mhnister

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said today that we must makd sure that everything is done to help this

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vital phase of dealing with the floods, but it is not enough for the

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Prime Minister and environmdnt Secretary to place to deal with the

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devastation and damage causdd. Need a commitment from them also to do

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all they can to prevent this from happening again. Just six ydars

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ago, Cumbria was hit by unprecedented flooding soppx

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described as a once-in-a-lifetime or once in a century event. But, Mr

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Speaker, it has already happened again and this time as the

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environment Secretary said, it is even worse. The environment

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Secretary's predisaster was someone who is prepared to acknowledge the

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risks proposed by climate change. Does he accept that extreme weather

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events... Need to be adapted to accordingly. We will be negotiating

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what we hope is that in stored agreement on climate change right

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now. Domestically this government has repeatedly abandoned me`sures to

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reduce the UK's carbon emissions. When she travels to Northwest today

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I help the environment Secrdtary will see that this cannot continue.

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Until the 2013-14 Winter floods in the Southwest, defence was

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downgraded from a 13. Despite a represented increased risk to the UK

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-- downgraded from a priority. In one year along, and the Coalition/

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fly spending by more than ?000 million. Will be secretary of state

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except that this left UK unprepared for extreme weather events? I know

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capital expenditure has been announced and is protected, but can

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they not tell us about resotrce funding for defence from 2006-1 to

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2019-20 until someone next xear .. I will be grateful if she can

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elaborate on that. Will be secretary of state heed warnings from experts

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that would need year on year investment of flood defenses to meet

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the increasing threat it poses. ... Can she honestly reassure the

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community affected by floodhng that the government is doing enotgh?

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After the last floods in Culbria, insurance pay-outs to months and in

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some cases years. Flooding hs not due to become operational until next

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year so can the Secretary of State of data is on the status of the

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answers companies since the weekend. Will have sold and businessds be

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paid properly and in full? Local people who are ready finding it

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impossible to beat the cost of insurance premiums, what should she

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offer people to ensure them that their insurance payments will

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increase even further? Mr Speaker, the environment Secretary spoke of

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the need for a cross departlental approach over those issues such as

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road closures, school closures, the role of hospitals... And thd point

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has been made by my colleagtes that it would be absolute folly to

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downgrade the West Cumberland Hospital and I, given that the

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hospital in Carlisle was perishable because of the sheer distance that

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would have to be travelled. It wasn't geared up to deal with the

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defence this time around. I am more than happy to confirm to her that we

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want to see a cross party approach to this as well, working with the

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communities and the governmdnt departments to try to ensurd that

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the people in Cumbria and Lancaster, wherever possibld, back

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home are safe and well with a roof over their head and is dry `s

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possible before Christmas strikes. I offer my support for that. Hear

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hear! Mr Speaker, I can assure thd

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honourable lady that we havd an absolute focus on making sure that

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the commanders on the ground have every support they need in order to

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make sure people are safe, that homes are protected, but also aid in

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recovery efforts. We have sden that in areas like restoring powdr supply

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I'm also road and transport systems. We are vigilant about the ftture

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weather Outlook. Cover will be meeting on a daily basis and making

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sure we have all those forecast -- cobra will be meeting. And we are

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putting those offices where they need to be. We are constantly

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vigilant on that at all timds copied the recovery effort and response

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that we started on Friday on making sure those resources were in place

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in Cumbria, and we can do what we can by mobilising resources like the

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Army to make sure that as mtch support was on the ground where it

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was needed. We have seen an unprecedented weather event. The

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honourable lady referred to previous party in Cumbria -- flooding. This

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was more extreme I have a mdtre in some of the key towns and chties in

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Cumbria of course. It is devastating for those people were previously

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affected by flooding, who bdlieved that things would be better copy

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they have been affected agahn and my huge sympathy goes to be local

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residents and I hope to meet them later today and tomorrow. The

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honourable lady, is absolutdly right about the extreme weather p`tterns

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we are seeing. As we say, it is consistent with the trends we are

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seeing in terms of climate change. Climate change is factored hn to all

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the modelling work the environment agency does, but clearly in the

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light of this extreme weathdr, we will have to look at that modelling

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and make sure it is fit for purpose for future decisions. We constantly

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review the way we look at, the way we invest in flood defenses. My view

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is that it is really import`nt that we remain fair to people right

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across the country and the people of Cumbria. Understand five thdse

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decisions are being made -- understand why the decisions are

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being made and get proper protection. If I could turn to flood

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defence spending, in terms of capital spending over the l`st

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Parliament we spent ?1.7 billion on capital spending for floods. That

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was a really terms increase on what we spend between 2005-2010. Where

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?1.5 billion we spent. On the next six-year programme is to put ?3

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billion, which represents a return to increase. It is the first time a

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government has ever laid out a six-year programme. The whole point

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is that we don't have lumpy bits of flood spending him and actu`lly we

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commit to a long-term progr`mme which helps to check the cotntry

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better. Including the impact of climate change, that is fordcast to

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reduce flood risk by 5%. Ovdr the next six years. In terms of a

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maintenance budget, which the honourable lady asked about, we

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spent 1.7 million, sorry ?171 million last your own flood

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maintenance and in the Autuln Statement he Chancellor confirmed

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that that will be protected in real terms. For the duration of this

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Parliament. She also asked `bout the health that people are going to get

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in terms of insurance and stpport schemes -- the help. What I am going

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to see him and my colleague asking to see, is that those support

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schemes are fixable -- is kden to see. And simple to operate some

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muscle will be working on that over the coming days. Might friend, the

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community secretary, will bd hosting a discussing to make sure stpport is

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provided. These issues are of course all very important, but the media

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prior to has to be on the rdscue and response effort to make surd that we

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are protecting lives and attacking families. Is such a terribld time of

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year, just before Christmas, for people to be out of their homes Our

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absolute priority as a government is making sure that we restore power,

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supplies to homes and that we restore those transport systems and

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protect lives. Thank you. Hdar, hear!

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Lots of my constituency havd been affected by the floods that have

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brought so much damage in the Northwest. I would like to reinforce

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the point... Insurance clails should be met speedily nod and six or nine

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months' time. People need them now not in six or nine months' time

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Also, would she make absolutely clear to insurance companies that

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they will be looked at very carefully if they start to withdraw

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coverage from people who have now benefited by these floods -, been

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affected by these floods? Following the devastation that they h`ve just

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had. I think my honourable friend makes a good point. We will be

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working with insurance comp`nies to make sure that people receive rubber

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payments and we can get people back into their homes as soon as possible

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-- proper payments. Let me thank the Secretary of State for his statement

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this afternoon. My colleagud shares condolences for any families that

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have been affected over the course of the weekend. Also to say that...

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My colleagues would be here speaking on behalf of the SNP, but hd is in

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his constituency assisting with what the maxi work there. We deal the Mac

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feel for the devastation, btt also the clean-up in Scotland as well. In

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some of the worst flooding that the region has seen. It is the fact that

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700 people were evacuated from their homes and hundreds of houses and

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businesses have experienced flood damage. Also across other p`rts of

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Scotland, experience the worst damage in 12 years. Mr Speaker, I

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knows the Mac note that scidntist were sitting always shy awax from

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any event that point to clilate change, but they also point to the

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fact that warmer air can hold more moisture. That means that rhsing

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temperatures are related to storms that may job more rain and ` more

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intense bursts. If I may, in 20 9 the Scottish Parliament in

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infamously passed a climate change legislation, using 1990 as `

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baseline. The Scottish Parlhament committed itself to reducing

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greenhouse gas emissions by at least 42% by 2020 and at least 80$ by

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2050. In Scotland, we are doing what we can for renewable energy. It is a

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pity that this government is removing support. I wonder hf I can

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ask the Secretary of State hf she will liaise with her colleagues to

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revisit this. We need to do more to protect. There is potential for

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extreme weather systems likd this to continue in the UK. We are lucky in

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the UK that we have the resources to help as much as we can't and

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preparing for these extreme weather systems and helping communities and

:19:44.:19:46.

aftermath. I am grateful for the comments in that regard. However

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across the world, small and poorer countries will be far worse hit by

:19:52.:19:57.

the effects of climate change. Today the Scottish Government announced it

:19:58.:20:01.

will double its climate Justice fund by placing a further ?12 million

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from developing countries to lessen the impact of climate changd -- for

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developing countries. What hs the UK government doing to assist the

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situation? I would like to dxpress my sympathy for those peopld

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affected in Scotland. I know we are working very closely with the

:20:19.:20:22.

Scottish government on our response. In terms of what we are

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going on climate change, my honourable friend, the clim`te

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change secretary, is currently in Paris working to secure a good

:20:28.:20:32.

international deal. So we c`n do with this on an internation`l level.

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Of course we have a very cldar carbon budget system in place here

:20:37.:20:37.

in the UK. Thank you Mr Speaker. I would like

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to begin by painter be to mx local environment team and making sure and

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Cumbria who were working all weekend, keeping me up to d`te. My

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residence are concerned that in less than two years the flood in the Mac

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and the Mac flooding... Will move away from the environmental

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agency... Most of this water is why. In my honourable friend tell me what

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the government is doing to protect that? I think my honourable friend

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for her question and can I `gree with her about painter but to be

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fantastic emergency service and environment agency staff who have

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been working around the clock to support people in the area was make

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the answer is in terms of otr six year programme, it will mean that an

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additional 420,000 acres of farmland will be protected. In this specific

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case of the flooding we've seen in the north over the weekend, we will

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be looking at what more can be done to help farmers. Over the wdekend

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and this morning I have been in contact with my honourable friend,

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the Member for working, and to whom remains in her constituency. She has

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given me thoughts on the situation in that part of Cumbria. Shd is I

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understand, extremely grateful for the response of the emergency

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services. Mr Speaker, I unddrstand that there is concern that there is

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an unintended consequence of reductions in front line services

:22:20.:22:21.

but also in cuts to local authorities in the environmdnt

:22:22.:22:25.

agency. Those emergency responses may not be possible in the future.

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With the government please give some thought as to whether, by cttting

:22:29.:22:34.

local authorities and the environment budgets, that that might

:22:35.:22:37.

be damaging to the ability to respond to these events and the

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future? I think the responsd effort we have seen over the weekend and

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the preparations put in place by the environment agency, the emergency

:22:47.:22:51.

services, and our Army personnel who have been fantastic. They h`ve been

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working their socks off on the ground to protect people. I think we

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are all very grateful for what they have done. My role is to make sure

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that we are coordinating those efforts and giving the local teams

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all the support they need. On Saturday and Sunday as the to the

:23:09.:23:13.

command to ask if they needdd any additional support and resotrces

:23:14.:23:16.

copy all those resources have been made available. Of course wd will

:23:17.:23:19.

continue to monitor the sittation to make sure those resources are

:23:20.:23:25.

available on the ground. Magic is opportunity to put on record my

:23:26.:23:29.

thanks to emergency services -- may I take this opportunity. And the

:23:30.:23:34.

Secretary of State assure md that she will continue to work whth

:23:35.:23:38.

farmers in my constituency to ensure that the devastation that some of

:23:39.:23:41.

them have suffered over recdnt days will be looked at with some

:23:42.:23:46.

sympathy? Hear, hear! I agree with my honourable friend.

:23:47.:23:49.

As well as making sure that farmland is protected as part of our six year

:23:50.:23:52.

flood defence programme. We will also be looking at specific impact

:23:53.:23:56.

on farmers. My colleague, the farming minister will be dohng work

:23:57.:24:02.

on that. This morning I met with businesses in York who were over

:24:03.:24:08.

four metres underwater. The 52nd flooding they have had withhn a

:24:09.:24:11.

month. -- and this is the sdcond flooding. Can the Day a be `ssured

:24:12.:24:19.

that sandbags are available free for businesses because they do pay a

:24:20.:24:24.

heavy price when flooding occurs? I thank the honourable Lady for her

:24:25.:24:28.

question. We are monitoring the situation in York very closdly. We

:24:29.:24:34.

have defenses in place in York and the environment agency make sure

:24:35.:24:38.

that the relevant equipment like sandbags and pumps are moved to the

:24:39.:24:40.

area in question. Has also be impacted this wdekend, I

:24:41.:24:52.

welcome my honourable friend's earlier comments for those working

:24:53.:24:55.

hard in my area and my thoughts are with those impacted elsewhere. I

:24:56.:24:59.

recently visited a village where the community have come together to

:25:00.:25:03.

create natural flood defensds including a series of holding ponds.

:25:04.:25:06.

Is my right honourable friend agreed that such things have a rold to play

:25:07.:25:13.

in preventing floods, to support these were appropriate. I think my

:25:14.:25:19.

honourable friend for his qtestion and have great sympathy for his

:25:20.:25:21.

constituents that have been affected, I completely agred that

:25:22.:25:25.

these natural defence schemds can play a very strong part in flood

:25:26.:25:32.

prevention and indeed I recdntly visited a flood project in Xorkshire

:25:33.:25:35.

which is doing just that. Not only does it help reduce flooding, it

:25:36.:25:41.

also contributions to the n`tural environment and diversity as well.

:25:42.:25:48.

It is times like this that we begin to worry about things like cuts

:25:49.:25:55.

local government and fire sdrvice have suffered from these for the

:25:56.:26:02.

last five years. Is there any opportunity of this minister, saying

:26:03.:26:07.

from this dispatch box todax that they will ensure that the fhre

:26:08.:26:14.

service will have those cuts reversed, and that they will be able

:26:15.:26:21.

to carry on without losing len and machinery from this date forward was

:26:22.:26:27.

white what I would say to the honourable gentleman is that we have

:26:28.:26:32.

seen fantastic support from the fire service and other services `nd the

:26:33.:26:37.

coordination on the ground has been superb. We have kept in regtlar

:26:38.:26:42.

touch with gold command in those local areas but one of the things I

:26:43.:26:46.

have confirmed today is that in terms of flood protection, we are

:26:47.:26:51.

seeing an increase in real terms, in capital spending over the ndxt

:26:52.:26:58.

Parliament and we are also seeing a protection in real terms of off

:26:59.:27:01.

maintenance budget and that is really important in terms of

:27:02.:27:05.

preventing and reducing the impact of flooding. Thank you Mr Speaker,

:27:06.:27:17.

in light of these cuts elsewhere, defenses have secured and protected

:27:18.:27:20.

as they were supposed to. Whth the Secretary of State now conshder as a

:27:21.:27:24.

matter of urgency, increasing the 11 million trees we plan to pl`nt in

:27:25.:27:29.

this Parliament saw it as one tree five people, increased to fhve trees

:27:30.:27:36.

for every person. This is 50,00 hectares, ... To help naturd hold

:27:37.:27:43.

water and reduce the risk of flooding in long-term. First of all

:27:44.:27:48.

I completely agree with my honourable friend about mentioning

:27:49.:27:51.

the number of houses that wdre protected and while my thoughts are

:27:52.:27:55.

with those who flooded -- who were flooded, we saw houses in the North

:27:56.:28:00.

of England protected by our defence is. I completely agree with her

:28:01.:28:04.

about being added at a cert`in level and making sure we are lookhng at

:28:05.:28:10.

programmes that can reduce flood risk and improve the environment at

:28:11.:28:17.

the same time. Can I put on the record my heartfelt sympathhes for

:28:18.:28:22.

the friends and families of all those who died in these event. My

:28:23.:28:31.

consistency was badly flooddd in 2007 and when one has to live

:28:32.:28:34.

through such an event to understand the devastation that it vishts upon

:28:35.:28:39.

communities and families alhke. Of the Secretary of State has lade a

:28:40.:28:42.

great deal of play about thd real terms increase in maintenance

:28:43.:28:47.

spending. However, can she risk her the House that she thinks there is

:28:48.:28:52.

an adequate level of funding to start with for maintenance, and that

:28:53.:29:01.

the environment agency is adequately funded with its role in rel`tion to

:29:02.:29:08.

flood prevention and response? I think back the honourable l`dy for

:29:09.:29:11.

her question I know she has a lot of experience in those areas. The

:29:12.:29:17.

budget, I have had this discussion with the environment agency, is

:29:18.:29:23.

effective. In terms of the level of plans we have had at the molent As

:29:24.:29:30.

I mentioned with the incident, incidents in Cumbria, we saw an

:29:31.:29:36.

extreme weather event, as long, as stop... To evacuate people, and also

:29:37.:29:44.

reduce the impact, clearly that is an area we need to look at. With

:29:45.:29:54.

uncanny time limits, a publhcation arrived in my post box todax from

:29:55.:29:59.

the Association of British hnsurers entitled, responding to major flush

:30:00.:30:04.

the white flood. Which is a useful guides to helping those affdcted by

:30:05.:30:08.

floods. And I asked my friend if she will speak and ensure that copies of

:30:09.:30:14.

this booklet are given to everyone who has been affected by thhs we

:30:15.:30:18.

can's flooding? I thank my honourable friend for his qtestion

:30:19.:30:22.

and I met with the AVI a cotple of weeks ago and I saw that document

:30:23.:30:25.

and it is indeed a good doctment which I would encourage manx members

:30:26.:30:30.

of Parliament to use in terls of helping their constituents. Doubling

:30:31.:30:37.

up as a helpful system, on top of other... Always willing to help we

:30:38.:30:41.

are grateful to the honourable to the bone. Like everybody in this

:30:42.:30:47.

House I would like to pay tribute to all of our emergency systems and

:30:48.:30:51.

services for their work that they do and continue to do. There is at

:30:52.:30:56.

present no formal expectation for fire and rescue services to actually

:30:57.:31:02.

attend floods in England and Wales. Is the Secretary of State agree with

:31:03.:31:07.

me that in order to ensure effective, safe and robust response

:31:08.:31:12.

to flooding, that we should follow the example of Scotland and Northern

:31:13.:31:17.

Ireland and make it a statutory duty to respond to flooding. I thank the

:31:18.:31:25.

honourable lady for her question. My view is that the procedures we have

:31:26.:31:30.

are working, the gathering of government departments on S`turday,

:31:31.:31:33.

making sure we have the right preparations in place in terms of

:31:34.:31:36.

the emergency service and environment agency and the @rmy

:31:37.:31:41.

Takeover system we have to co-ordinate things we have `n

:31:42.:31:45.

emergency, as we have had in the last few days has worked very

:31:46.:31:49.

effectively and we have been able to mobilise people on the ground. What

:31:50.:31:52.

I am interested in is what works and what is effective, and how we

:31:53.:31:57.

protect the maximum number of people and the maximum number of homes from

:31:58.:32:06.

this extreme event. I also would like to pay tribute to the dmergency

:32:07.:32:09.

services. As an officer of the problem and to regroup rescte.. I

:32:10.:32:15.

would like to pay tribute to those rescue workers who do a hugd amount

:32:16.:32:20.

of work to support the commhttee is effective. With Teresa being a

:32:21.:32:26.

important part of the econoly. Every effort to be made to support local

:32:27.:32:29.

business communities over the Christmas season and the run-up to

:32:30.:32:32.

it in these very difficult circumstances. My honourabld friend

:32:33.:32:38.

is absolutely right, mounting rescue have been a fantastic support,

:32:39.:32:43.

particularly in some remote villages across the North of England,

:32:44.:32:48.

particularly in Cumbria. I like pay tribute for that around-the,clock

:32:49.:32:50.

work that has been absolutely fantastic. I agree with the

:32:51.:32:55.

honourable gentleman about rural tourism, it is already worth 10

:32:56.:32:59.

billion for the economy, it is important we get things up `nd

:33:00.:33:01.

running again. That is why H am working with my colleagues hn the

:33:02.:33:06.

transport secretary, to makd sure we get power and transport up `nd

:33:07.:33:11.

running so people not only dnjoyed as residents can also visit the

:33:12.:33:17.

area. I would like to give condolences expressed by thd

:33:18.:33:21.

secretary of state but also the commendation she gave to thd

:33:22.:33:23.

emergency service volunteers to copy and the valuable work that they re

:33:24.:33:28.

doing. Across England and W`les have been affected by this, incltding the

:33:29.:33:33.

leader of my party, who suffered the relatively minor inconvenience of

:33:34.:33:36.

having his car written off `s part of the flood. Minor compared to what

:33:37.:33:41.

other people have experiencdd. He cannot be here today. Clearly the

:33:42.:33:47.

Secretary of State is focushng on the emergency, but after thd

:33:48.:33:52.

emergency, with the Secretary of State tried to apply to the EU

:33:53.:33:57.

Solidarity fund to help rebtild communities devastated by floods

:33:58.:33:59.

once the immediate emergencx has been dealt with? I thank thd

:34:00.:34:02.

honourable gentleman for his question, my understanding hs quite

:34:03.:34:07.

a high threshold to obtain funding from that but of course we will look

:34:08.:34:12.

at every potential sources of funding. As I mentioned alrdady my

:34:13.:34:15.

right honourable friend the community secretary will be opening

:34:16.:34:19.

the bell when fund and we are looking at specific schemes as well.

:34:20.:34:27.

Floods as we have seen can be devastating in their impact on

:34:28.:34:30.

businesses, homes and indivhduals in our thoughts are with them `ffected.

:34:31.:34:36.

Along with the department's commitment today to invest hn

:34:37.:34:40.

schemes, with my right honotrable friend continued commitment to

:34:41.:34:43.

invest in such schemes and continue the vital work she has begun that

:34:44.:34:49.

has already spared many people damage or flooding and has the

:34:50.:34:53.

potential to affect many more in the future was white I thank motntable

:34:54.:34:57.

front for his question, it hs an absolute priority for my department

:34:58.:35:02.

to improve our flood defensds as much as possible to reduce the flood

:35:03.:35:08.

risk and make sure we're prdpared for when these extreme situ`tions do

:35:09.:35:15.

occur. That is why we acted early on Saturday bringing together

:35:16.:35:17.

departments to make sure we have a response prepared on Sunday, holding

:35:18.:35:21.

a cobra, making sure the Arly were deployed, so that we can de`l with

:35:22.:35:24.

those situations and protect as many lives and as many homes as possible.

:35:25.:35:30.

Much of my immediate family including my parents live in that

:35:31.:35:36.

area and thankfully, they are safe, but might opt and prayers aren't

:35:37.:35:40.

going out to everybody affected by this dreadful situation and

:35:41.:35:43.

obviously, thank you to our emergency services and commtnity

:35:44.:35:48.

volunteers. But just six ye`rs of, after unprecedented flooding,

:35:49.:35:53.

Cumbria has been hit by unprecedented rainfall. Does the

:35:54.:35:56.

secretary agreed that extrele weather like this is an increasing

:35:57.:36:01.

future of British weather and that the government's policy has to

:36:02.:36:06.

adaptor that? I think the honourable lady for the question and al pleased

:36:07.:36:10.

to hear that her family is safe and clearly, the events in Carlhsle were

:36:11.:36:17.

not just extreme weather evdnts they were significantly worse than

:36:18.:36:21.

they were on previous occashons with an additional half a metre of water

:36:22.:36:25.

which has a huge impact on local communities. Of course, as with all

:36:26.:36:32.

major incidents, we will look at this and see the lessons th`t can be

:36:33.:36:38.

learned for the future. Can I pause on my sympathy to all those who have

:36:39.:36:42.

been affected and commendathon to all emergency services who have

:36:43.:36:45.

always done a fantastic job. Can I ask my right honourable fridnd to

:36:46.:36:51.

ensure that with the pressure on housing, that she is going to note

:36:52.:36:55.

the new look at levels of w`ter rising and ensured that no new

:36:56.:37:01.

housing is built in these locations? I thank my honourable friend for his

:37:02.:37:04.

question and that is very mtch part of our planning system. Mr Speaker,

:37:05.:37:13.

I give my thoughts and praydrs to those impacted by these app`lling

:37:14.:37:18.

scenes, but Mr Speaker, we have seen them occurred the use of thd word

:37:19.:37:21.

unprecedented time and time again, we see me becoming back in this

:37:22.:37:24.

house to discuss these kinds of issues. It is it -- is it now time

:37:25.:37:30.

as the country and nation wd sat down and looked at the

:37:31.:37:31.

infrastructure, where subst`tions are, where railways are, tr`in

:37:32.:37:40.

systems, look at everything and .. National consultation so th`t we can

:37:41.:37:52.

actually have a proper... I think the honourable Joan won for his

:37:53.:37:56.

question, we do have very clear national resilience plans about our

:37:57.:38:01.

key asset in making sure th`t we are protected. Of course, after every

:38:02.:38:06.

major incident, we reviewed to see what can be improved. I would say

:38:07.:38:10.

this about our defenses, we are constantly reviewing, making sure it

:38:11.:38:16.

is as good as possible, but each time, something different h`ppens of

:38:17.:38:19.

course. We need to be ill to adjust that. We are open and transparent,

:38:20.:38:25.

the public can look at the methodology, the environment agency

:38:26.:38:28.

uses, it is very sophisticated data from the office, but we will look at

:38:29.:38:35.

this and see what more can be done. Thank you Mr Speaker, on th`t note,

:38:36.:38:39.

the Secretary of State and `lso my sympathies are with everybody

:38:40.:38:44.

affected by the flooding. Ctmbria is in the recovery phase. Will the

:38:45.:38:47.

Secretary of State review the flood defence modelling for the lower

:38:48.:38:51.

Thames region, which many of my revenue Mike residents do not have

:38:52.:38:54.

any confidence in, and will she particularly look into another which

:38:55.:39:03.

is called by civil engineers even before floods in 2014 and 2015.

:39:04.:39:08.

White I am very happy to discuss this issue with the honourable lady

:39:09.:39:12.

and potentially meet the people who are working on this proposed scheme.

:39:13.:39:18.

I think it is very helpful to have a open and transparent discussion

:39:19.:39:21.

about why the decisions on flooding have been made and I'm will be happy

:39:22.:39:23.

to share that data modelling with her. The people only know too well

:39:24.:39:31.

the devastation that flooding causes. Extending this to all of

:39:32.:39:38.

this delight the people affdcted by this weekend, we pay to be to the

:39:39.:39:44.

emergency services and to also BBC radio who helped in situations like

:39:45.:39:48.

this. Can ask the Secretary of State whether she is given considdration

:39:49.:39:51.

to increasing the support to national flooding... Who do so much

:39:52.:39:57.

to help families affected bx flooding, bytes of practical support

:39:58.:40:01.

and... Additional resources to them would be helpful at this tile. I

:40:02.:40:06.

thank the honourable lady for her point, she is absolutely right about

:40:07.:40:14.

the blood for him, but also by local radio and making sure peopld were

:40:15.:40:17.

evacuated from their homes, given adequate warning, saying we can keep

:40:18.:40:24.

people safe. -- flood warning. The evaluation website is also ` good

:40:25.:40:33.

resource, has... So the public are able to access this information we

:40:34.:40:38.

have also been keeping people up on social media and that has enabled

:40:39.:40:42.

the Mike made us be able to keep people safe. According to the

:40:43.:40:50.

Association of British insurers my constituency is the most likely to

:40:51.:40:54.

flood in the entirety of thd UK and the tidal surge of 2013 flooded

:40:55.:40:58.

hundreds of homes, the consdquences of which many of my constittents are

:40:59.:41:01.

living with. Canasta Secret`ry of State to go back and double check

:41:02.:41:07.

the forthcoming Boston barrher is not only up to the job, but also

:41:08.:41:11.

provides a much needed economic benefits that come with dev`stating

:41:12.:41:17.

floods such as ones we see hn Cumbria. I agree with my horrible

:41:18.:41:23.

friend at the Boston barrier is an extremely important scheme, not just

:41:24.:41:28.

a local businesses in Boston, but also for farmers in the surrounding

:41:29.:41:32.

area, I know we have had discussions where I met drainage boards about

:41:33.:41:38.

what can be done in Lincolnshire. As I said, I would be very happy to

:41:39.:41:41.

update my honourable friend on the modelling we have done and the

:41:42.:41:47.

forecast we have made. Can H join the Secretary of State in ddalings

:41:48.:41:52.

of these to on her families affected. What message is the

:41:53.:41:57.

government sending to those this emergency service personnel who are

:41:58.:42:00.

giving their all right now, and to the people set out and affected

:42:01.:42:07.

rainout. Five stations closhng in Cumbria alone, under the latest

:42:08.:42:11.

round of service cuts, and how will this affect the government's ability

:42:12.:42:15.

to respond to future extremd conditions, the ministers s`id today

:42:16.:42:21.

we must expect those. The mx message that the firefighters of Culbria is

:42:22.:42:25.

thank you, for all the work you have done for the local people on the

:42:26.:42:29.

fantastic work done working with the police, with other emergencx

:42:30.:42:33.

services, with the Army and the environment agency. To give Mr

:42:34.:42:39.

Speaker, apart from the nathonal interest in ensuring that Ctmbria

:42:40.:42:42.

gets the support it needs, ly research lives at a city and has

:42:43.:42:51.

raised with me... Ken Mr look at not just a commitment to rapid repair

:42:52.:42:56.

but also providing rubber transport and the structure in this area for

:42:57.:43:02.

the future? I think my all for and for the question, the issue was

:43:03.:43:06.

discussed in this morning's programme as part of our programme

:43:07.:43:10.

to make sure that bridges are restored as soon as possibld, and my

:43:11.:43:12.

honourable friend the transport secretary will be working on that.

:43:13.:43:21.

In her statement the Secret`ry of State talked about assisting local

:43:22.:43:25.

authorities through the recovery phase with 100% of eligible costs.

:43:26.:43:29.

Can she outlined to the House what she considers to be the recovery

:43:30.:43:34.

stage, is it just the clean,up and recovery, or is it the

:43:35.:43:38.

reconstruction and the investment in new infrastructure and to ftture

:43:39.:43:42.

proof and what would she consider to be an eligible costs for local

:43:43.:43:49.

authorities as well? I think Mike the honourable German for hhs

:43:50.:43:52.

question, my honourable fridnd the community secretary will be leading

:43:53.:43:56.

out more details of this gale later this week, but they are

:43:57.:43:58.

well-established terms under which the scheme operates. Might die with

:43:59.:44:07.

your permission on behalf of the people of Somerset, who know what

:44:08.:44:13.

this is like, extend my condolences and sympathies to all those affected

:44:14.:44:18.

in the Northwest and to say how pleased I am to hear that expertise

:44:19.:44:22.

from Somerset is being used up there. In Somerset, local

:44:23.:44:27.

authorities and national government have come together to fund with

:44:28.:44:31.

residents the Somerset Rivers authority to ensure adequatd funding

:44:32.:44:36.

and oversight for flood defdnses on an ongoing basis. Does my rhght

:44:37.:44:39.

honourable friend agree with me that this is very welcome and th`t the

:44:40.:44:43.

decision to move ahead with dredging this year is correct, despite the

:44:44.:44:47.

opposition of Somerset's global global liberal Democrats? I think

:44:48.:44:52.

Mike Brown will front for hhs question and it is fantastic

:44:53.:44:55.

volunteers that come from Somerset to help out the situation. Hn

:44:56.:45:03.

Cumbria. I am happy to have a store blessed the rivers authoritx to get

:45:04.:45:07.

the local people the control over situations like dredging th`t take

:45:08.:45:10.

place in the local area and is absolutely right that peopld who

:45:11.:45:13.

know the ground and underst`nd the area that are making those crucial

:45:14.:45:20.

decisions. I know I speak for many and West Kent and I say that I think

:45:21.:45:28.

my local bike honourable frhend Remember that those of us in West

:45:29.:45:34.

Kent not only feel huge sympathy for combat troops and Cambria, but also

:45:35.:45:39.

are very keen to ensure that the defence is required on the lidway

:45:40.:45:42.

and belt are put in place. Ly honourable friend who is not here I

:45:43.:45:47.

know will be urging me and others to speak on behalf of of towns like

:45:48.:45:55.

umbrage and eat umbrage absolutely need defenses that her plan only a

:45:56.:46:00.

number of years ago when we suffered ourselves and I are Secretary State

:46:01.:46:03.

to not forget the rest of the country. I thank my honourable

:46:04.:46:10.

friend for his question. We are assessing additional financd in

:46:11.:46:13.

capital spinach or in defenses in real terms over this Parlialent so

:46:14.:46:17.

we are investing to .3 billhon, I am absolutely committed that that money

:46:18.:46:23.

is to be distributed in a clear and transparent way so that people are

:46:24.:46:27.

fully understanding of how ht is being used. Point of order. In the

:46:28.:46:41.

department of questions earlier asked a question about support for

:46:42.:46:47.

disabled people retaining work. A minister from... Stated that it was

:46:48.:46:53.

at record levels. Part of worker pension... In 2009 and ten, there

:46:54.:47:09.

were a number of users accessing it. Provide the House with everx mission

:47:10.:47:12.

he was referring to today or make it broader statement that he mhght

:47:13.:47:15.

actually answered the questhon I asked. A better recourse is for the

:47:16.:47:22.

honourable gentleman to makd a short journey to the table office and to

:47:23.:47:28.

further questions, I do not know baseline year the Minister had in

:47:29.:47:33.

mind when making his comparhson but I must just gently add nor hs there

:47:34.:47:38.

any way my response ability to know. So I would say to the honourable

:47:39.:47:44.

gentleman, who is an ingenious contributor to our proceedings is

:47:45.:47:47.

that his head almost certainly not be filled with a series of follow-up

:47:48.:47:51.

questions, which in a sense encapsulates his discredit them at

:47:52.:47:55.

the satisfaction with what he has heard so start like soap ard. He

:47:56.:47:58.

should make use of the question system, whether the Minister likes

:47:59.:48:01.

it or not, I rather have thd knowledge that is precisely what the

:48:02.:48:06.

honourable gentleman will not do. If there are no further points of

:48:07.:48:12.

order, we will proceed with the main business. The club will now proceed

:48:13.:48:18.

to read the orders of the d`y. Local devolution Bill Law, committed to

:48:19.:48:25.

the House to be considered. We begin with New Clause seven, with which it

:48:26.:48:28.

will be convenient to consider government amendment 51, as on the

:48:29.:48:35.

selection paper. To move, Ndw Clause seven, I call the Parliamentary

:48:36.:48:43.

under Secretary of State. Think you meet Mr Speaker, I beg to move

:48:44.:48:47.

amendment New Clause seven `nd will also speak to them 51. I thhnk first

:48:48.:48:52.

as you put on the record my gratitude and that of my colleagues

:48:53.:48:56.

for the representations madd by a number of honourable members who are

:48:57.:48:59.

keen to see this provision hncluded in the bill who are looking to

:49:00.:49:02.

support their local and nathonal parks authorities to empower those

:49:03.:49:07.

local authorities to do the best job they can and to continue to

:49:08.:49:11.

contribute to the communitids they represent. In particular, the right

:49:12.:49:15.

honourable members from these areas. As well as have to add that

:49:16.:49:29.

County counsellor of North Xorkshire County Council who made strdnuous

:49:30.:49:32.

efforts to convince us of the merits of these changes and kindly arranged

:49:33.:49:37.

for me to represent them at me with representatives of the North

:49:38.:49:40.

Yorkshire arts Authority and national parks England. Mr Speaker,

:49:41.:49:44.

in light of this week and's flooding I think it is important to reiterate

:49:45.:49:48.

the comments of my right honourable friend, the Secretary of St`te for

:49:49.:49:53.

environment, food and rural affairs in the same and we just heard, my

:49:54.:49:57.

sympathy to the people Cumbria and other areas affected in recognition

:49:58.:50:00.

of the significant impact of what has happened there in the

:50:01.:50:04.

unprecedented weather events that we have seen. I should first s`y, in

:50:05.:50:08.

terms of speaking specifically to the content of this New Clatse

:50:09.:50:13.

amendment, say a few words `bout the role of national Park authorities in

:50:14.:50:16.

that context in relation to water management and how those ch`nges may

:50:17.:50:22.

assist in further perform in those role. Although national Park

:50:23.:50:25.

authorities do not have the slots will be for planning, the ddcisions

:50:26.:50:29.

they make and edit control they and force can make a big differdnce to

:50:30.:50:33.

the demands placed on those who have to respond during an emergency.

:50:34.:50:37.

National parks have an important role to play in managing water

:50:38.:50:40.

environment and help with restoration work. For example,

:50:41.:50:47.

pleasant 2009 caused severe damage to the Cumbria and national Park.

:50:48.:50:52.

Over 250 bridges were damagdd or destroyed and 85 need a rep`ir. The

:50:53.:50:56.

function specific of competdnce that we are discussing with thesd

:50:57.:51:00.

amendments to be used to enhance the national parts authority to rip

:51:01.:51:05.

respond to flood emergencies by allowing partnerships to develop

:51:06.:51:09.

skills and capacity within small rural communities and busindsses to

:51:10.:51:12.

assist with response is needed. To develop specific skills to combat

:51:13.:51:16.

future flood management and to adapt the network to include, improve

:51:17.:51:23.

blood results. Given that n`tional parks may cover one or more Metro

:51:24.:51:31.

Mayor areas, and I give to him the example of the District nathonal

:51:32.:51:36.

Park at which is in Manchester, partly in South Yorkshire as well,

:51:37.:51:41.

to areas that may well soon have Is there a case for having somd kind of

:51:42.:51:46.

ordination for emergency pl`nning to make sure that the different parts

:51:47.:51:51.

of the national Park, there is the same resilience and same emdrgency

:51:52.:51:57.

planning to allow it? I think the honourable member makes an hmportant

:51:58.:52:00.

point, we want to see that coronation and there are structures

:52:01.:52:02.

in place to ensure that different bodies work together to respond as

:52:03.:52:08.

efficiently as possible and what for -- from what I have seen in

:52:09.:52:11.

happening in Cumbria and other areas and we can, number of those bodies

:52:12.:52:15.

are working very hard to deliver that for local communities. It is an

:52:16.:52:18.

important point and absolutdly we want to see as much cooperation and

:52:19.:52:23.

empower those public bodies to carry out that cooperation wherevdr we

:52:24.:52:28.

can. That is in many ways underlies the purpose of devolution and I

:52:29.:52:32.

think it is an apt time for him to put his comments on the record and

:52:33.:52:35.

do something we would have to see. New cause... I give way. In the East

:52:36.:52:47.

Midlands, there is a deed to and into which may or may not h`ve a

:52:48.:52:53.

direct. There is also Sheffheld city which includes other cities and

:52:54.:53:00.

other districts and councils in North Yorkshire. In the middle of

:53:01.:53:07.

all of that, there is the hdart recall and various other major

:53:08.:53:13.

buildings. What I want to know now that he is said there should be the

:53:14.:53:18.

greatest cooperation, how c`n there be great cooperation as between the

:53:19.:53:27.

Sheffield people who are anxious to take over large areas of thd

:53:28.:53:34.

district or deed to into whhch is also part of the same area? ,? - D

:53:35.:53:44.

two in two. What is the government's policy? Mr Spe`ker

:53:45.:53:50.

devolution is the bottom-up process, it is done by consensus, I know we

:53:51.:53:54.

will have significant opportunity to further discuss some the provisions

:53:55.:53:58.

made today, but were receivdd bodies that have the capacity to

:53:59.:54:01.

co-operate, we want to empower them to do so and to give them the

:54:02.:54:05.

leaders they need to deliver better services, public services, dconomic

:54:06.:54:09.

development to do this sort of thing and to give them the leaders they

:54:10.:54:11.

need to deliver better servhces public services, economic

:54:12.:54:13.

development to do this sort of thing in the first step to that process

:54:14.:54:19.

and empowering our national parks authorities to do what they can do

:54:20.:54:24.

to contribute not just to the flooding resilience which I have

:54:25.:54:26.

Artie spoken of, but also to improve the offer that they can makd to the

:54:27.:54:29.

public to improve the work they already do so well. New Clatse

:54:30.:54:35.

seven, it confers new gener`l powers on national Park authorities in

:54:36.:54:38.

England along similar lines of those conferred among others, fird rescue

:54:39.:54:42.

Authority, integrated transport authorities. In chapters two and

:54:43.:54:47.

three of part one of the local. . And of for clarity and put on the

:54:48.:54:51.

record for honourable members on the front bench opposite, this hs of

:54:52.:54:54.

course the general powers are to enable a national park to do more

:54:55.:54:58.

and do it better. They are not a back door to cracking or sh`le gas

:54:59.:55:01.

development, that will not `ffect the approach we intend to t`ke in

:55:02.:55:05.

that area. In England, our nine national parks, including some of

:55:06.:55:09.

our country's finest landsc`pes and exciting wildlife. As part of our

:55:10.:55:13.

national identity, national parks protect these landscapes for future

:55:14.:55:17.

generations, for us all to dnjoy. They are the cornerstone to many

:55:18.:55:21.

rural businesses. These new powers for national Park authoritids will

:55:22.:55:25.

allow an authority to act as an individual unit with certain

:55:26.:55:28.

limitations in relation to the functions that an authority has For

:55:29.:55:32.

example, a function specific to power competence will allow a

:55:33.:55:37.

national authority to act through a company and trade in a broader way

:55:38.:55:40.

than they currently can. National Park authorities they have `sked for

:55:41.:55:46.

the star. They consider it ht.. For example, they consider that they

:55:47.:55:50.

will be in a better position to enter into a partnership to support

:55:51.:55:54.

growth across our rural economy The chair of national parts England has

:55:55.:55:58.

said that we are pleased to see the government introduces in thd

:55:59.:56:00.

government introduces a memo. Is what happened national Park

:56:01.:56:02.

authorities to maximise opportunities to the fill otr

:56:03.:56:06.

statutory purposes. This me`sure will allow national Park authorities

:56:07.:56:10.

to participate fully in deals such as Northumberland national Park

:56:11.:56:15.

request as part of the Northeast devolution deal and to seek

:56:16.:56:17.

additional sources of funding to further support their work hn

:56:18.:56:21.

supporting rural economies. Is important to be clear that the power

:56:22.:56:24.

competence does not overridd existing legislation. National Park

:56:25.:56:29.

authorities will be down by their statutory purposes, conservhng and

:56:30.:56:33.

enhancing national beauty and wildlife and cultural herit`ge of an

:56:34.:56:36.

area, and providing opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment

:56:37.:56:39.

of the special qualities of the area. It is also important to be

:56:40.:56:43.

clear that his power not be used by national Park authorities as an

:56:44.:56:46.

opportunity to prevented develop charge interest of the all but a

:56:47.:56:49.

very small percentage of our national parts are owned prhvately

:56:50.:56:53.

and not bite national parks authorities and can have no legal

:56:54.:56:56.

basis for charging for access. I want to clarify that neither with

:56:57.:57:01.

these powers be used to encourage or permit too much or inappropriate

:57:02.:57:04.

development. National parks are designated under the nation`l Parks

:57:05.:57:08.

access to the act 1941 for the natural beauty and opportunhties for

:57:09.:57:13.

recreation. National percent to statutory repurposes which H just

:57:14.:57:18.

referred to. The framework for concepts will remain unchanged. And,

:57:19.:57:21.

in using their new powers, the Park authorities could not promote or

:57:22.:57:24.

permit activities that are incompatible with the statutory

:57:25.:57:28.

purposes. The powers providdd to the Secretary of State by regul`tion to

:57:29.:57:32.

restrict the use of powers to the national Park authorities in a

:57:33.:57:35.

particular way relates solely to this New Clause and not to there

:57:36.:57:38.

exist in powers. Other than those concerning further internathonal --

:57:39.:57:45.

the powers replace the existing general powers of the national Park

:57:46.:57:47.

authorities under the environment act of 1995. The new powers or

:57:48.:57:52.

consider more extensive, but are being repealed to avoid overlap

:57:53.:57:56.

Amended 50 West is a man dyhng miner and technical amendment Dightal

:57:57.:58:03.

five. -- these are changes Lr Speaker that we're making and

:58:04.:58:06.

response to comments that honourable members have made in response to the

:58:07.:58:09.

effective representation we have seen from a number of honourable

:58:10.:58:13.

members and from national p`rts England and national parks

:58:14.:58:16.

authorities that wanted to see them included in this bill. Therdfore

:58:17.:58:20.

this is a section debate th`t I hope will be supported broadly across the

:58:21.:58:23.

House and with these explan`tions, I hope the honourable members will be

:58:24.:58:26.

a will to accept New Clause seven commitment 51.

:58:27.:58:31.

New Clause seven, English n`tional park authority's general powers The

:58:32.:58:38.

question is that the Clause be read a second time. Hear, hear!

:58:39.:58:46.

Thank you Mr Speaker. Our n`tional parks or our precious national

:58:47.:58:52.

assets. Millions of people tse and enjoy them every year. They are

:58:53.:58:59.

areas of the countryside th`t everyone can visit and wherd people

:59:00.:59:06.

live, work and shape the landscape. We have 15 national parks, ten in

:59:07.:59:09.

England, three in Wales and two in Scotland. In his Autumn Statement,

:59:10.:59:16.

the Chancellor included devolution to national park authorities in

:59:17.:59:20.

England, allowing them to l`nd invest, trade, and set up

:59:21.:59:27.

cooperative with businesses -- lend, legally known as the general

:59:28.:59:31.

powers competent. However wd know what is driving this change. That is

:59:32.:59:37.

cuts made by this government. Hear, hear!

:59:38.:59:40.

National park authorities in England have suffered cuts of up to 40% and

:59:41.:59:46.

their government funding since 010. Indeed, Northumberland national park

:59:47.:59:53.

are already renting out thehr office space which has been vacated by

:59:54.:59:57.

staff who have lost their jobs were in enterprise hub has been set up.

:59:58.:00:02.

The Secretary of State has tabled New Clause seven, which would amend

:00:03.:00:08.

the environment act 1995 to provide English national park authorities

:00:09.:00:13.

with general powers to do anything they consider appropriate in

:00:14.:00:15.

carrying out their function`l purposes. These new general powers

:00:16.:00:25.

set out in these sections 64 a, are similar to those on other

:00:26.:00:28.

authorities considered by chapter one of part one of the localism act,

:00:29.:00:36.

2011. The new laws on the applies to English national park authorities.

:00:37.:00:42.

Section 65B limits the scopd of the general power of competence in

:00:43.:00:47.

certain respects. Section 64B does not allow English national parks to

:00:48.:00:51.

borrow money or to charge a person for anything it does, other than for

:00:52.:00:57.

a commercial purpose. This immediately raises concerns. We have

:00:58.:01:03.

seen the Coalition government ayes attempt to privatise our forest

:01:04.:01:11.

which was met... This attempt was rightly defeated. We have sden this

:01:12.:01:14.

government attempt to open tp our national parks to cracking, again

:01:15.:01:20.

causing a great deal of concern amongst those who value our precious

:01:21.:01:24.

national assets and have no wish to see them opened up to commercial

:01:25.:01:28.

ventures in this manner -- open up our national parks to frackhng. We

:01:29.:01:32.

need strong assurances that the character of our national p`rks will

:01:33.:01:34.

be protected and that such `n important national instituthon is

:01:35.:01:38.

maintained for the benefit of the public. We need a cast-iron

:01:39.:01:44.

assurance from this governmdnt that fracking is not going to be allowed

:01:45.:01:48.

in our national parks puppy Hear, hear!

:01:49.:01:50.

We need more details on govdrnment funding of national parks. We need

:01:51.:01:57.

more details on what the national parks are actually planning to do

:01:58.:02:02.

with the new powers. We cannot allow this commercialisation of otr

:02:03.:02:05.

national parks by the back door The future governments and

:02:06.:02:10.

accountability of our English national parks is an absolutely

:02:11.:02:15.

massive issue. It isn't isste that deserves proper debate. It does not

:02:16.:02:19.

belong here in the cities and local government devolution bill, inserted

:02:20.:02:23.

at the 11th hour with no tile for the very weighty issues raised to

:02:24.:02:28.

have a proper discussion. I will give way. Given that nation`l parks

:02:29.:02:35.

or local authorities for thdse purposes, with the honourable lady

:02:36.:02:41.

agree that it is a deeply mhsleading red herring she rises, becatse after

:02:42.:02:44.

all and fracking matter has nothing to do with the role of local

:02:45.:02:48.

authorities of any kind. National parks or otherwise, in relation to

:02:49.:02:53.

the general power of conferdnce Said she welcomed the ability for

:02:54.:02:56.

national parks to enter into joint agreements? Example, district and

:02:57.:03:00.

county have... Precisely wh`t this is and that. She has actually acted

:03:01.:03:06.

completely unsteady in this matter. I think the honourable gentleman for

:03:07.:03:14.

his comments -- I thank. Red herrings... I'm an merely expressing

:03:15.:03:21.

the unsuitability of this Clause and application to this bill. It has

:03:22.:03:26.

been brought in at the 11th hour, with a minimum of notes is. It

:03:27.:03:31.

raises huge issues. I don't think the general public would agree with

:03:32.:03:35.

the honourable gentleman, that he worry about fracking in our national

:03:36.:03:37.

parks is a red herring. We certainly, I certainly got ` lot of

:03:38.:03:41.

correspondence about it when the government was talking about it a

:03:42.:03:44.

few weeks ago. I think we nded a proper debate. Take back thd

:03:45.:03:50.

honourable lady for given w`y. I do not think I could be more clear to

:03:51.:03:55.

the debate around fracking... Let me be clear these clauses will not be a

:03:56.:04:00.

back door to fracking. They do not affect the issue of fracking in

:04:01.:04:03.

regard to national parks. And I would add this is something that has

:04:04.:04:07.

been asked for by national parks. I would be interested if she can tell

:04:08.:04:10.

the House coming in national park authorities she had spoken to before

:04:11.:04:13.

coming to oppose this New Clause and women here today? The right

:04:14.:04:17.

honourable gentleman makes ` very good point. You have not given us

:04:18.:04:22.

time to respond correctly. H have spoken to 20 -- I haven't spoken to

:04:23.:04:27.

any because you have not given us time to consult rapidly. It is not

:04:28.:04:32.

enough time. There has been no reference made to this Clause. We

:04:33.:04:37.

are on the third reading of this bill. It has been slipped in at the

:04:38.:04:41.

11th hour. The right honour`ble gentleman is being disingentous in

:04:42.:04:45.

his comments if he seriouslx expects us to have been able to do `

:04:46.:04:49.

thorough consultation with `ll the national park authorities in

:04:50.:04:55.

England. Is basically... If that is his approach he is trying to set us

:04:56.:04:58.

up to fail. We value our national parks. And we want to make sure that

:04:59.:05:04.

we have a proper debate on the future of our national parks. That

:05:05.:05:07.

is what we are asking for your. I will give way to the honour`ble

:05:08.:05:11.

lady. Take back the honourable lady for giving way. I will say this is

:05:12.:05:18.

an issue that has been ongohng for very many months. And the issues of

:05:19.:05:25.

governance which are in the Devolution bill more widely have

:05:26.:05:28.

been a cause of enormous concern for the national parks as they try very

:05:29.:05:31.

much to get themselves into the arena of discussion. There has been

:05:32.:05:35.

a huge credit to the Ministdr that he has come up to the northdast and

:05:36.:05:39.

spoken to both North Yorkshhre and some of my colleagues in

:05:40.:05:43.

Northumberland to make sure they understand just how important this

:05:44.:05:46.

amendment, which is just an extension, will be. I hope the

:05:47.:05:51.

honourable lady will see th`t they are absolutely passionate about

:05:52.:05:55.

getting this issue... If we can get on and expand what they do. Hear,

:05:56.:05:57.

hear! I am sure the honourable lady like

:05:58.:06:02.

me does not agree with the comments that have been made to be

:06:03.:06:06.

Northumberland arcs upward to. I am sure the honourable lady wotld

:06:07.:06:09.

rather we have a proper deb`te and discussion in his house rather than

:06:10.:06:12.

this amendment, which has jtst been snuck in at the 11th hour. H will

:06:13.:06:20.

give way. Thank you very much. I understand she hasn't spoken to be

:06:21.:06:23.

national park authorities. That is not necessarily the reason we oppose

:06:24.:06:26.

this. I have spoken to be done at authority... And counsellors on the

:06:27.:06:32.

board and they will very much welcome this because they think this

:06:33.:06:35.

will allow them to be full players at the table and the devolution

:06:36.:06:39.

bill. That is so important `t the moment. I don't know what otr tally

:06:40.:06:45.

means, I remember her on thd television... This is nonsense.

:06:46.:06:49.

Opposition to opposition. The government should get with the plan

:06:50.:06:54.

your. Just because I haven't talked to national park authorities does

:06:55.:06:56.

not mean they should just vote against something in the Sotth. I

:06:57.:07:03.

happen to want this! I am stre the honourable gentleman believds that

:07:04.:07:05.

the government should get whth the plan, however we are the opposition

:07:06.:07:09.

and I am not opposing proposition's fake. I am opposing this because I

:07:10.:07:13.

think we need a proper debate. - oppositions sake. This could have

:07:14.:07:17.

been affect on our national parks that are loved and valued to the

:07:18.:07:22.

general public. I will not take any more interventions. And you've

:07:23.:07:25.

already intervened once. Thd national park authorities are one

:07:26.:07:31.

part of the equation. I havd already said that because this has been

:07:32.:07:34.

brought in at the 11th hour, that we have not had time to consult

:07:35.:07:39.

properly. Any reasonable person would want... Well you have prior

:07:40.:07:46.

knowledge of it... I am surd every reasonable person would agrde that

:07:47.:07:51.

on such an important issue we need a proper debate. The national park

:07:52.:07:55.

authorities are not the onlx stakeholders here. No, I will not.

:07:56.:08:01.

The public are the real stakeholders in this. The millions of people who

:08:02.:08:06.

use and enjoy our national parks every year should have their say.

:08:07.:08:11.

They are the stakeholders. They would not be thinking us if we allow

:08:12.:08:14.

this to get in through the back door. And I am not opposing it, nor

:08:15.:08:18.

are any of my team opposing this proposition's fake, we are opposing

:08:19.:08:23.

this because we have very sdrious concerns about the way that this

:08:24.:08:28.

Clause has been introduced `s opposition's sake. We are not going

:08:29.:08:31.

to agree to such a huge change in the government's

:08:32.:08:41.

accountability of our national parks without a proper debate... We will

:08:42.:08:47.

not go through without a proper discussion. It is totally

:08:48.:08:57.

inappropriate... Irreversible changes to our national parks should

:08:58.:09:00.

be slipped into this bill in this manner. The national park

:09:01.:09:05.

authorities are there to protect the environment for the good of the

:09:06.:09:08.

nation and for the good of these people. I call on the Secretary of

:09:09.:09:12.

State to withdraw this New Clause that does belong in this bill. -

:09:13.:09:18.

does not belong in this bill. That have a proper debate and give our

:09:19.:09:24.

stakeholders, the people, a chance to have their say. Let's not try to

:09:25.:09:28.

introduce damaging changes to our national parts by the back door

:09:29.:09:30.

Hear, hear! What a rich and delicious choice. Mr

:09:31.:09:42.

Robert Neil. Thank you Mr Speaker. That is without any doubt the least

:09:43.:09:46.

informed speech I have ever heard from a front bench in the whole of

:09:47.:09:51.

my career in the House of Commons. I am sorry to say that. To be

:09:52.:09:55.

honourable lady, but she has simply not read because and not understood

:09:56.:09:59.

what it is about. This is a Clause which expands the power of general

:10:00.:10:05.

competence, which applies to local authorities on a which her party

:10:06.:10:14.

supported when I introduced it as a minister. My right honourable

:10:15.:10:16.

friends thought it was a welcome thing as it applies to local

:10:17.:10:22.

national parks and authorithes. It does not affect planning and anyway,

:10:23.:10:25.

whatever. That is the thing that horrified me, that a front bench

:10:26.:10:29.

spokesmen from the opposition does not understand the difference

:10:30.:10:32.

between the role of a local authority, the national parks

:10:33.:10:41.

authority, and the Mac -- as opposed to planning Authority, which is not

:10:42.:10:44.

affected in the slightest. That is very worrying in terms of the

:10:45.:10:49.

approach that the opposition adopt. I'll be happy to give way. The thing

:10:50.:10:55.

that the settlement is to would not give way, he will confirm on the

:10:56.:11:00.

record that we do not have `dvanced notice of this Clause. I met with

:11:01.:11:04.

the South venture park on the 1 th of November when they made clear

:11:05.:11:06.

their support for this Clause coming forward. I have had that much time.

:11:07.:11:11.

They have had that much timd. The opposition may have been distracted

:11:12.:11:14.

with other matches, that is a whole other matter. For the record, on

:11:15.:11:20.

Sally was in... My honourable friend is right. The thing is this going

:11:21.:11:25.

back applications of fracking and licensing matters and all that is

:11:26.:11:30.

not governed by a pair of gdneral populist in the slightest. Hs Clause

:11:31.:11:34.

has no effect upon fracking of any kind. To suggest otherwise hs either

:11:35.:11:42.

willful ignorance, Ira Grey Tuesday to the honourable lady, or ` serious

:11:43.:11:47.

piece of misleading the public - Ira Grey Tuesday to the honourable

:11:48.:11:52.

lady. It gives local authorhties and national parks he same powers to

:11:53.:11:56.

deal on the same basis that County councils have. It was well lade by

:11:57.:12:01.

my honourable friend in his intervention, data labels them to

:12:02.:12:08.

devolution deals, which agahn I think the opposition has ported So

:12:09.:12:10.

so far, they are against thd power of the general public, against

:12:11.:12:15.

devolution deals and nation`l parks which they have supported. Hs set up

:12:16.:12:21.

complete on Sally, which has nothing to do with the case whatsoever. I

:12:22.:12:29.

appreciate the front bench has shuffled so many times they do not

:12:30.:12:32.

have time to read... But I will give them some idea that this is totally

:12:33.:12:39.

off the case. It is against the dilution. I am sorry. This hs a

:12:40.:12:44.

bizarre speech and eight as are approached by the opposition. - and

:12:45.:12:50.

a bizarre approach. If they are against this, they are simply

:12:51.:12:53.

unhappy. He is very generous. It does occur to me, is he aware that

:12:54.:12:57.

there has been a campaign worked up across the country about thd

:12:58.:13:02.

possibility of fracking bring up the national parks as part of some

:13:03.:13:08.

dastardly plot that the conservative government wants to introduce

:13:09.:13:10.

fracking wherever it can find in a National Guard was made that the

:13:11.:13:15.

think perhaps the response hs in some way by this campaign? H've

:13:16.:13:19.

always taken that the furthdr left you go, the greater the conspiracy

:13:20.:13:25.

berries get. I suspect that may have happened with perhaps one or two

:13:26.:13:31.

honourable exceptions on thd front bench. It has nothing ever to do

:13:32.:13:34.

with what we are about. Nothing to do with the ludicrous scare

:13:35.:13:39.

campaign. A simple amendment that was not objected to in its principal

:13:40.:13:45.

when the localism bill was brought through, is suddenly seized upon for

:13:46.:13:48.

the most bizarre hit of polhtical grants landing by a bankrupt

:13:49.:13:52.

opposition that the best thhng they can do is to find something to agree

:13:53.:13:56.

upon. It actually damages the ability. It stops the ability of the

:13:57.:14:03.

national park authority to dnter into a joint venture for ex`mple,

:14:04.:14:11.

restricting County councils. Anyone who speaks to people who have are

:14:12.:14:13.

presented areas of national parks will know that one of their concerns

:14:14.:14:17.

was the own ability to join up the service delivery between thd

:14:18.:14:20.

national parks authority, the district out so, and the Cotnty

:14:21.:14:23.

Council. I was the sort of thing that was a regular issue. This

:14:24.:14:28.

enables that to be done through a simple legal structure. It has

:14:29.:14:38.

nothing to do with... Nothing to do with the issue rating from fracking.

:14:39.:14:41.

It is a sad state when this important, but useful technhcal

:14:42.:14:45.

amendment is hijacked by ond of the more bizarre bits of political

:14:46.:14:49.

Boulevard earing I have ever seen in my time in Parliament. I will speak

:14:50.:14:58.

as chair of the all party group on national parks. I've got sole

:14:59.:15:04.

interest in this as well as Sheffield, the local authorhty in

:15:05.:15:09.

which my constituency is. One third of Sheffield is actually in the big

:15:10.:15:15.

district national part copy the Mac. Emma Concha up past divisions - may

:15:16.:15:23.

conjure up divisions, but mtch of it is very rural and open and

:15:24.:15:28.

beautiful. Let's try to deal with because before us. I understand my

:15:29.:15:33.

honourable friend's concerns about a Clause of this length being

:15:34.:15:39.

parachuted in, right at the last minute, Woodman has been many

:15:40.:15:42.

opportunities for the to have brought it forward earlier `sked

:15:43.:15:45.

when there has been many opportunities. There have bden many

:15:46.:15:48.

opportunities for the government to talk informally to my honourable

:15:49.:15:52.

friend, with could have perhaps delay the fears they may have. In

:15:53.:15:56.

the end, it is the duty of opposition to oppose and probably

:15:57.:16:00.

also to be very suspicious of a government which come forward with a

:16:01.:16:06.

4-page amendment, claiming that he has nothing but good intenthons in

:16:07.:16:11.

doing so. Of course a bit of suspicion minds around that. But if

:16:12.:16:14.

we look at what the national parks have been doing, they have been

:16:15.:16:17.

saying to us as a group, at meetings that they would actually welcome

:16:18.:16:22.

this general power of competence being extended to them. That this is

:16:23.:16:27.

an oversight that it wasn't them in the first place because I think what

:16:28.:16:30.

is being suggested is that where national park functions, whhch are

:16:31.:16:37.

similar in nature and will be exercised by local authoritx and

:16:38.:16:40.

other places, then the local authorities exercising safe

:16:41.:16:46.

functions have general power of confidence... But a national park

:16:47.:16:50.

area does not. I understand that is what the cause is doing. Evdryone

:16:51.:16:55.

that is a bit suspicious whdn fracking is around... Quite frankly

:16:56.:16:57.

many people do interest the government on this issue. Months

:16:58.:17:01.

ago, fracking got all over the place. They're hardly happy to do is

:17:02.:17:05.

copy the government somewhat brought it on themselves, those suspicions.

:17:06.:17:10.

But to give a clear statement, there is no way in which this givds any

:17:11.:17:16.

extension of powers, of planning powers or anything else which could

:17:17.:17:21.

possibly affect the issue of fracking and national parks. Of

:17:22.:17:26.

course I will, yes. I think my honourable friend for giving way.

:17:27.:17:35.

Argument is, we had no idea that this Clause was going. It is almost

:17:36.:17:38.

five pages long. Our problel is that national parks should be single

:17:39.:17:44.

mightily protecting our envhronment that's protected in our envhronment.

:17:45.:17:46.

This general power of confidence which allows them to engage in a

:17:47.:17:51.

marginal activities, reached the funding gap with the counsellor has

:17:52.:17:54.

left, does he not worried that the single-minded concentration might be

:17:55.:17:58.

lost in this search for addhtional revenue as a result of a colmercial

:17:59.:18:06.

approach? I see my honourable friend's concerns in that rdgard. On

:18:07.:18:12.

the other hand, I think that reality probably is today that many national

:18:13.:18:16.

parks actually do look at w`ys to raise revenue number to help support

:18:17.:18:20.

their budgets. I can share the comments of my honourable friend

:18:21.:18:24.

from the front bench, national parks have subjected cuts, they are

:18:25.:18:27.

fighting more difficulty to do the job that they are expected to do

:18:28.:18:32.

with the resources, so I thhnk they will turn to other ways of raising

:18:33.:18:37.

funds. That happens anyway. I am not sure Pacific league of this Clause,

:18:38.:18:44.

why is that possibility gre`ter -- specifically of this Clause? I thank

:18:45.:18:53.

the honourable member for ghving way. I would like to clarifx that

:18:54.:18:56.

this Clause has no impact on the planning matters as they wotld

:18:57.:18:58.

affect national parks copy ht has nothing to do with the issud of gas

:18:59.:19:03.

extraction or fracking. I hope that is clear enough for him and can give

:19:04.:19:06.

him some reassurance about the intention which is to delivdr on

:19:07.:19:09.

something that national parks themselves have been asking for I

:19:10.:19:12.

am aware that national parks have been asking for it. I except the

:19:13.:19:16.

Minister's statement of there. I wonder whether the Minister but

:19:17.:19:21.

think about the comments from my honourable friend on the front bench

:19:22.:19:25.

about the issue of fundraishng. And the extent to which the powdr of

:19:26.:19:30.

General conference could be used by national parks to in any wax

:19:31.:19:33.

undermine their primary purpose which is to look after the national

:19:34.:19:36.

parks, the beauty of them, the environment. Also to ensure they are

:19:37.:19:40.

a place where people can live and work as well. That is an important

:19:41.:19:45.

functions copy tag back the honourable member again. I cannot

:19:46.:19:48.

make sure that is the primary purpose that remains there. I said

:19:49.:19:52.

anything in the national parks does must be in line. Regarding `ny

:19:53.:19:58.

issues of charging, there is no legal basis for that. It is not

:19:59.:20:00.

something that we are looking to allow. I hope we may lose to a

:20:01.:20:05.

position of greater consensts on this Clause, which I think would be

:20:06.:20:08.

uncontroversial. I recognisd the concerns that honourable and right

:20:09.:20:12.

honourable members have put on record, but I think the honourable

:20:13.:20:16.

member for giving me the ch`nce to accept my interventions to put these

:20:17.:20:21.

concerns to bed. I think th`t is a helpful comment as well. As their

:20:22.:20:24.

affliction, if more discusshon could have been had across the floor

:20:25.:20:28.

before we got to this point, that might be something everyone could

:20:29.:20:31.

learn from in terms of how we are taking this forward -- as

:20:32.:20:35.

reflection. It has actually been helpful to me and I thank them for

:20:36.:20:42.

it. Order. The honourable mdmber from the forest east for sole

:20:43.:20:46.

minutes now has been poised rather like a sprinter that he's does

:20:47.:20:52.

suffer from one disadvantagd... Maybe the honourable member from the

:20:53.:20:59.

forest east beetle into the chamber a bit after desirable friend. So we

:21:00.:21:02.

will reserve this as a spechal delicacy. LAUGHTER

:21:03.:21:08.

I am extremely grateful. I never thought I was being disadvantaged by

:21:09.:21:12.

my honourable friend. LAUGHTER Delightful to hear that, th`nk you

:21:13.:21:18.

very much indeed. As you correct to point out, I have national park in

:21:19.:21:25.

North Devon. Debuted for park it is, but before I go on... -, a

:21:26.:21:34.

beautiful park it is. Mass @I do not recognise a lot of what was said. In

:21:35.:21:39.

particular, the comments th`t have been made about this having been

:21:40.:21:45.

slipped in. Insufficient tile to be too national park authoritids. - to

:21:46.:21:50.

speak to. I had no advance notice of this at all. I was first aldrted to

:21:51.:21:54.

be wording of this Clause on Thursday afternoon. In that time, I

:21:55.:22:00.

have had time to have a det`iled e-mail correspondence with the

:22:01.:22:05.

chairman of a national park... My office has spoken at great length to

:22:06.:22:09.

managers at the national Parks Authority, nationally. Two hours ago

:22:10.:22:16.

I came off the phone from a lengthy conversation with a chief executive

:22:17.:22:19.

of the national park, Doctor Nigel Stone. If I am able to do that, then

:22:20.:22:27.

I'm sure that all the results of the fire mentioned that they wotld have

:22:28.:22:29.

been able to make some cursory inquiries as to what this Clause is

:22:30.:22:33.

all about. It appears that they failed to do so. Hear, hear

:22:34.:22:37.

What I can say having spoken to those people is that it is the

:22:38.:22:41.

national park authorities and managers themselves who want this to

:22:42.:22:47.

happen. The honourable membdrs opposite, do those national park

:22:48.:22:52.

managers a great disservice by alleging some of the things that

:22:53.:22:56.

they are alleging. They are implying that in asking for this Clatse to

:22:57.:23:01.

happen, those national park managers in some way are going to usd them

:23:02.:23:05.

for nefarious purposes. Nothing could be further from the truth

:23:06.:23:08.

Again, honourable members opposite need to be careful about wh`t they

:23:09.:23:13.

are alleging our national p`rk managers are wanting to do. In my

:23:14.:23:16.

experience they have nothing but the best intentions for managing our

:23:17.:23:20.

national parks. Particularlx, this one. Which brings me onto the

:23:21.:23:28.

virtues of that park and whx this New Clause seven in particular will

:23:29.:23:31.

be so valuable. One third of the national park is in my North Devon

:23:32.:23:36.

constituency. It includes the beautiful, rugged Clothesline which

:23:37.:23:43.

provides opportunity for many ledger activities, but is very important as

:23:44.:23:47.

far as the environment and our ecosystem is concerned. In the

:23:48.:23:52.

conversations I have had with the chairman and chief executivd of

:23:53.:23:56.

Exmoor national park, they `re adamant that Exmoor in parthcular

:23:57.:24:02.

would benefit from the meastres included in New Clause seven. In

:24:03.:24:06.

particular, some specific examples as to why they believe this would be

:24:07.:24:10.

a benefit and why they do wdlcome it so much. Firstly, we have a great

:24:11.:24:15.

pressure on the provision of housing for local amenities in Exmoor and

:24:16.:24:21.

indeed other areas of North Devon. The difficulties up till now is that

:24:22.:24:25.

national park or gore have been very much hamstrung in the conversations

:24:26.:24:29.

they have been able to have with developers to ensure that

:24:30.:24:35.

arrangements can be made for local affordable housing to go forward.

:24:36.:24:38.

This is not carte blanche the Mustang that all development will be

:24:39.:24:43.

allowed -- saying that all development will be allowed. There

:24:44.:24:46.

is nothing further from this New Clause that has been proposdd that

:24:47.:24:50.

allows this to happen. The difficulty at the moment is that it

:24:51.:24:54.

is difficult for national p`rks to enter into any sort of meanhngful

:24:55.:24:57.

relationship, for instance H could not set up a joint enterprise. In

:24:58.:25:03.

particular they could not engage with the developer who was seeking

:25:04.:25:05.

to undertake some commercial activities in North Evan. -, North

:25:06.:25:12.

Evan. One example given to le is what is New Clause will allow

:25:13.:25:15.

national park authorities to do for instance is to enter into an

:25:16.:25:19.

arrangement with the developer that land for commercial activitx can

:25:20.:25:23.

remain in the ownership of the national park and they hum `

:25:24.:25:29.

therefore retain and indeed gain some financial advantage from that,

:25:30.:25:31.

which hasn't been possible tp until now. I heard from his sedentary

:25:32.:25:36.

position, the gentleman on the front bench, saying that yes and national

:25:37.:25:40.

parks want to make money. I say yes, what is wrong with that? What

:25:41.:25:44.

is wrong with national parks being able to raise funds to further do

:25:45.:25:49.

the excellent work that thex are already doing? I think that opening

:25:50.:25:53.

the commercial world in this way to be national parks can only be a good

:25:54.:25:59.

name for at three. In anothdr example, visitor attractions for it

:26:00.:26:05.

instead. We enjoy in Exmoor a large number of visitors every ye`r who

:26:06.:26:09.

come for its rugged beauty, for the coastline and the in land areas

:26:10.:26:15.

This Clause will allow national park authorities to enter into commercial

:26:16.:26:18.

arrangements to ensure more people can enjoy those visit the M`c

:26:19.:26:23.

visitor attractions. To attract a them there, to ensure that they have

:26:24.:26:28.

the best possible visitor experience. That is enormously

:26:29.:26:34.

important. When I asked the chief executive to sum up for me hn two

:26:35.:26:39.

sentences why he will welcole New Clause seven, and indeed all the

:26:40.:26:41.

national park authorities wdlcomed this, he said two things. Fhrstly,

:26:42.:26:45.

it gives national park authorities more options at a time when we are

:26:46.:26:52.

all having to save money. It gives national park authorities more

:26:53.:26:55.

options to ensure that they are viable going forward. And sdcondly,

:26:56.:27:00.

he says this will give us the power to make things happen. In a way that

:27:01.:27:06.

has not been possible up until now. This is a New Clause which H will

:27:07.:27:12.

welcome, which the heads of Exmoor national park who have had `n

:27:13.:27:17.

opportunity to speak to since Thursday in great detail, wdlcome

:27:18.:27:21.

which all other national park authority managers welcome `nd I

:27:22.:27:24.

know that they have been in conversation with the front bench

:27:25.:27:28.

here. I warmly welcome this because it is going to be good for Dxmoor

:27:29.:27:31.

and it is going to be good for the rest of our national parks. Hear,

:27:32.:27:34.

hear! Mrs figure I thank you for drawing

:27:35.:27:46.

so much attention that she put it rather late. I apologise for that. I

:27:47.:27:49.

apologise in advance that I will be deal out of it again, rather than

:27:50.:27:53.

early unfortunately for the same reason that I was late, namdly

:27:54.:27:58.

defence committee is that. But I am delighted to have the opportunity of

:27:59.:28:04.

this small window to try to reassure, the opposition front

:28:05.:28:08.

bench, and I hope they will take my reassurances seriously as I was one

:28:09.:28:12.

of only three members of my party to vote against the schema for

:28:13.:28:17.

privatizing the forest estate. Which the honourable Lady referred to in

:28:18.:28:28.

her remarks. I am not one jtst to accept on trust everything hn

:28:29.:28:31.

relation to forest, that thd government puts Florida. Having said

:28:32.:28:36.

that, I think that the government reserve a big pat on the back for

:28:37.:28:40.

this. Because, it is often said that government does not listen, and this

:28:41.:28:46.

is a classic case of the government having listened, and I will be

:28:47.:28:51.

grateful if the opposition front bench spokesman Melissa for a

:28:52.:28:54.

moment, because it is being directed at them in an attempt to be helpful.

:28:55.:29:00.

But I am trying to convey is this the fact. It is precisely bdcause,

:29:01.:29:07.

the head of the chairman of the new Forest national Park, authority a

:29:08.:29:16.

former official of the new Forest and somebody who is very highly

:29:17.:29:20.

thought of by all people who live and work in the new Forest `nd are

:29:21.:29:25.

concerned the management and protection of the new Forest. He

:29:26.:29:29.

contacted me some time ago to ask if it may be possible to persu`de the

:29:30.:29:34.

government to give get a catse of this sort into the bill at the

:29:35.:29:41.

committee stage. And sadly, that states had just passed, and I think

:29:42.:29:47.

it sells its ordinary flexibility and willingness to listen on behalf

:29:48.:29:51.

of the government in general and this Minister in particular, rather

:29:52.:29:55.

than at the support states he has managed to get this clause `nd. In

:29:56.:30:00.

reference to the job of the opposition, I fully sympathhse with

:30:01.:30:06.

the opposition front bench. It is a longer clause and it is thehr job

:30:07.:30:10.

scrutinize clauses being thdy are long or short. But particul`rly if

:30:11.:30:15.

they are long. Therefore, I would like to try to help them have

:30:16.:30:19.

assurance in the case of thhs particular clause by just rdading

:30:20.:30:28.

two brief supplied by the n`tional Parks in England themselves.

:30:29.:30:32.

Specifically for use in this debate. And this is what national P`rks in

:30:33.:30:37.

England say, national Parks England the unparalleled body for the MPA's

:30:38.:30:44.

welcomes the tabling of new clause seven by ministers and help set

:30:45.:30:47.

you, meeting me would be able to speak in support of it at the report

:30:48.:30:53.

states debate of the bill on Monday the 7th of December 2015. They then

:30:54.:30:57.

give a long list of the reasons why they support this extension of

:30:58.:31:01.

power, which are similar, they point out the powers given to comparable

:31:02.:31:08.

bodies, and they end up specifically referring to the clause in the

:31:09.:31:14.

following term. He the new clause seven follows the legislative format

:31:15.:31:18.

established for other public bodies. National Parks England support this

:31:19.:31:22.

amendment and would encourage MPs to speak in support of the support

:31:23.:31:27.

states of the bill. I do understand the difficulty in which the

:31:28.:31:30.

opposition front bench finds itself, seeing the clause of this

:31:31.:31:34.

complexity at short notice, I hope I have been able to reassure them as

:31:35.:31:39.

from the point of view of n`tional parks himself, the clause is warmly

:31:40.:32:14.

welcome the. I do not think it is a conspiracy, and I think it hs an

:32:15.:32:16.

occasion for congratulation of the front bench government, and at this

:32:17.:32:18.

particular minister for listening and being flexible enough and making

:32:19.:32:21.

a change indeed at the 11th hour. But a chance that deserves to be

:32:22.:32:24.

made, if we are to trust thd judgement of the national P`rk

:32:25.:32:26.

authorities themselves do not intend to talk for long. I merely wish to

:32:27.:32:29.

put on the record, my thanks to honourable member who contrhbuted to

:32:30.:32:31.

this part of today's discussion thank you Mr Speaker, I do not

:32:32.:32:34.

intend to talk for long. I lerely wish to put on the record, ly thanks

:32:35.:32:36.

to honourable member who contributed to this part of today's discussion I

:32:37.:32:43.

think we started at a contentious place but moved towards consensus. I

:32:44.:32:45.

like to recognise the comments particularly of those of honourable

:32:46.:32:47.

members and my right honour`ble friend who vociferous and m`king who

:32:48.:32:49.

I have exchanged corresponddnce on this matter. And having casd with

:32:50.:32:51.

who I have exchanged correspondence on this matter. And having welcomed

:32:52.:32:57.

to the attention of the govdrnment. It is welcomed by national parks

:32:58.:33:02.

that it may be welcomed by the shadow front bench and that we can

:33:03.:33:06.

move forward in a more convdntional way by a large number of honourable

:33:07.:33:09.

and right honourable member. I hope that it may be welcomed by the

:33:10.:33:11.

shadow front bench and that we can move forward in a more convdntional

:33:12.:33:16.

way for the rest of today's discussion. But, Mr Speaker, I

:33:17.:33:19.

committed the changes to thd house, I think they are welcome and

:33:20.:33:21.

important order! The question is that new clause seven be re`d a

:33:22.:33:26.

second time. Say the contrary as on the contrary stay noes. Ayes

:33:27.:33:35.

division Ayes division cleared the lobbying. -- lobby --

:33:36.:35:37.

Order! The question is the new clause seven be read a second time

:35:38.:35:44.

order! The question is the new clause seven be read a second time

:35:45.:35:52.

tell us for the Ayes tell us for the tell us for the noes.

:35:53.:36:10.

Order! Order the Ayes to thd right, 292. The noes to the left 180 the

:36:11.:46:46.

Ayes to the right, 292. The noes to the left 187. The Ayes to the right

:46:47.:46:54.

to 92. The the Ayes to the right to 92. Noes to the left 187. I think

:46:55.:47:06.

the Ayes have it. We now cole to new clause one, with which it whll be

:47:07.:47:10.

convenient to I think the Axes have it. We now come to new clause one,

:47:11.:47:13.

with which it will be convenient to consider the clauses and amdndments

:47:14.:47:16.

listed on the selection papdr new clauses and amendments listdd on the

:47:17.:47:22.

selection paper to move, new Outland. Thank you very much Mr

:47:23.:47:27.

Speaker. One of the I called Mr Graham Outland. Thank you vdry much

:47:28.:47:29.

Mr Speaker. One of the diffhculties and having on a bill such on a bill

:47:30.:47:40.

such as on the floor. Very often rather than having a detaildd debate

:47:41.:47:44.

on a particular place or a boundary is that it takes place on the floor.

:47:45.:47:47.

Very often rather than having a detailed debate on a partictlar

:47:48.:47:49.

place or a boundary issue, the committee and the Minister can say

:47:50.:47:52.

that the honourable gentlem`n made a very good point. I would take that

:47:53.:47:56.

away and talk to local authorities and issue a few words of re`ssurance

:47:57.:47:59.

the committee and the Minister can say that the honourable gentleman

:48:00.:48:02.

made a very good point. I would take that away and talk to local

:48:03.:48:05.

authorities and issue a few words of reassurance it actually becomes a

:48:06.:48:08.

much bigger issue with the such as having a bolt dividing the House

:48:09.:48:11.

disposal on the floor of thd house. Such as having a bolt dividhng the

:48:12.:48:16.

house. Beginning of the process involving devolution, which I

:48:17.:48:19.

congratulate the Secretary of State and his team for bringing forward

:48:20.:48:21.

tobeginning of the process hnvolving devolution, which I congrattlate the

:48:22.:48:23.

Secretary of State and his team for bringing forward to confrontational

:48:24.:48:30.

stuff that we seemed to enjoy so much on the floor. I think there are

:48:31.:48:35.

a number of areas will begin do something in this chamber, dven

:48:36.:48:40.

today, even this evening, even in this structure, where we nedd to

:48:41.:48:46.

seek a way Florida on a mord consensual basis. -- forward.

:48:47.:48:53.

Understand that devolution hs an organic process and it will evolve.

:48:54.:49:00.

Once these deals are concluded, they are in England at the moment, they

:49:01.:49:04.

will move forward and there will be other demands made, there whll be

:49:05.:49:08.

things that people see, that they can do what they could not do

:49:09.:49:12.

before, they will look at neighbours, who concluded ddals and

:49:13.:49:17.

say, I will would like to try a little bit of that. I think I will

:49:18.:49:21.

talk to the Secretary of St`te and the Secretary of State may well

:49:22.:49:24.

suggest to some places that there are things that another place did

:49:25.:49:28.

which you could do and could take Florida. There may be other areas

:49:29.:49:36.

also, -- forward. Where these Secretary of State and councils may

:49:37.:49:39.

say that we may have bit off more than we may have bit off more than a

:49:40.:49:44.

week pace back and let it sdttle and come forward with other proposals in

:49:45.:49:51.

the future. It is almost by definition a better and comlittee,

:49:52.:49:59.

and better done by key playdrs, the Council leaders and the minhsters

:50:00.:50:04.

themselves. Talking openly `nd transparently, and moving the

:50:05.:50:08.

process forward. I give way. I am very grateful, for the thoughtful

:50:09.:50:15.

new clause being proposed. But doesn't the honourable gentleman

:50:16.:50:18.

agree that devolution is behng driven at a pace by the Scottish

:50:19.:50:24.

agenda which means that there is really not time for the convention

:50:25.:50:28.

on the big devolution to Scotland. Is not it time for England to know

:50:29.:50:35.

that God will give so much? He talks about moving it to pace and then

:50:36.:50:39.

suggest that England should have what Scotland has. I would go with

:50:40.:50:45.

the latter of those contradhctory points that the honourable gentleman

:50:46.:50:49.

made and say that England should have everything that is being

:50:50.:50:54.

obtained by the Scottish people and the devolution bills. Particularly,

:50:55.:51:00.

in order to make the packagd is rounded out, not just the powers,

:51:01.:51:05.

but also the financial capability to make those powers real, it will come

:51:06.:51:10.

on a little later to talk about the new clause five. Which says, that we

:51:11.:51:18.

should look at, for example income tax devolution assignments, rather

:51:19.:51:26.

to England just as it pertahns at the moment to Scotland without

:51:27.:51:32.

civilization falling apart. May I say, in order to renew and

:51:33.:51:36.

strengthen the union in the way that it will need to be in the ftture

:51:37.:51:41.

decades which is as a feder`l entity when the nations of the union will

:51:42.:51:46.

work together very closely, but all have the ability to retain ` degree

:51:47.:51:51.

of income tax to make their own countries to work effectively I will

:51:52.:51:56.

be pleased to give way. I al very grateful to the honourable lember

:51:57.:52:01.

for giving way. I share his view about financial powers going with

:52:02.:52:05.

responsibilities to providing services. Does he not also `greed

:52:06.:52:10.

that there is a case for devolving responsibility for income t`x below

:52:11.:52:15.

the England level, in a Sweden for example, most local services are run

:52:16.:52:20.

to tax raised locally rather than at the national level. I'm delhghted to

:52:21.:52:27.

hear the Liberal Democrats proposing something and opposition whhch they

:52:28.:52:31.

do not propose suddenly when a key member of the Coalition govdrnment

:52:32.:52:36.

for the last five years, before they smiled too much, the Labour

:52:37.:52:41.

government before that did very little on this also. So, with my

:52:42.:52:48.

honourable friend said that they did the opposite, I obviously whll never

:52:49.:52:58.

be as disloyal as to underlhne those were marked by repeated thel on the

:52:59.:53:04.

floor. We do now... Order. The honourable gentleman would not have

:53:05.:53:09.

done and does almost forgotten days when he was a whit -- went. We all

:53:10.:53:22.

have scars and it is best ldft unturned of Mr Speaker. It could be

:53:23.:53:27.

a rather destructive process. Looking at a constructive process

:53:28.:53:29.

which has been initiated by the Secretary of State, and this current

:53:30.:53:37.

bill. There is a way forward. And there is a way, just to finhsh at

:53:38.:53:41.

the ends of the question posed by the honourable gentleman. Double

:53:42.:53:45.

devolution has been raised repeatedly by colleagues in all

:53:46.:53:49.

parts of the House and in dhfferent ways. Just to restate, it would be

:53:50.:53:54.

blue Chris, for England to go the way of Scotland where devolttion has

:53:55.:54:03.

taken place and the sucking sound that they used to hear from Mexico

:54:04.:54:11.

to the United States that wd now here in Scotland. That suckhng sound

:54:12.:54:17.

is the sucking of powers, wd do not wish to see that repeated in

:54:18.:54:22.

England. That does mean as ly right honourable friend states th`t there

:54:23.:54:27.

has to be a proper localisation of power if the devolution, bandwagon,

:54:28.:54:32.

and even Lucian is to continue. There are a number -- evolution Of

:54:33.:54:39.

things to put on the record which I would like to do. But I will not do

:54:40.:54:43.

it at length in terms of my new clause is because we have not gone

:54:44.:54:48.

around the house on that prdviously. Just to say, if we are devolving in

:54:49.:54:54.

England. If we have the balls and Scotland, if a majority of peoples

:54:55.:54:58.

votes in England do not count and perhaps ought to be made to count in

:54:59.:55:03.

a different way. If we do sde, as we are seeing an anxiety about the

:55:04.:55:10.

powers of the second chamber, if we have all of those things happening,

:55:11.:55:15.

it doesn't make sense, if wd are going to have a political and

:55:16.:55:19.

constitutional affairs select committee. I can imagine such a

:55:20.:55:24.

thing existed. If we will not have that then perhaps what makes a lot

:55:25.:55:29.

of sense is to have a steadx hum a careful citizen led conventhon which

:55:30.:55:35.

discusses all of these issuds, with party leaders commit at least to

:55:36.:55:44.

give the views of Jesus convention on the floor by draft bills. And a

:55:45.:55:49.

discussion then on where those bills could be taken as. It makes sense to

:55:50.:55:55.

discuss all of these changes with a slightly broader view among what our

:55:56.:56:02.

democracy should look like. The threats Mr Speaker are quitd

:56:03.:56:05.

considerable. Therefore, thd action we need to take should be slipped.

:56:06.:56:11.

And countering those threats and having a review of where ard

:56:12.:56:19.

democracy lies. That is what clauses one, two, three, four and fhve take

:56:20.:56:26.

up the point of there being financial powers to go alongside

:56:27.:56:32.

that. I would like to turn to I a particularly difficult question

:56:33.:56:38.

because it is very detailed. It is one of relating to amendment 27

:56:39.:56:44.

Which I know the Minister whll be talking to, but I will perh`ps try

:56:45.:56:51.

to tempt him to respond to ly view on where amendment 27 might go. I

:56:52.:56:57.

think there is a great deal of anxiety, because devolution deals

:56:58.:57:03.

are such an important thing if you run a local authority, if you care

:57:04.:57:08.

about local authority, if boundaries are possibly going to changd, is the

:57:09.:57:14.

functions are going to change, is a morality may well be imposed as part

:57:15.:57:21.

of this deal. There may be ` degree of anxiety and worry, in a certain

:57:22.:57:25.

places in the country. About the precise detail of how a devolution

:57:26.:57:34.

deal might work. So, what I would like to do is ensure that when we

:57:35.:57:38.

look at amendment 27, I unddrstand why the government has put ht

:57:39.:57:42.

forward. It doesn't make sense in the government on the terms of. The

:57:43.:57:49.

government is trying to reach a level of flexibility around

:57:50.:57:55.

devolution deals with. But there are difficulties and that there are

:57:56.:58:00.

particular difficulties arotnd Nottingham and Sheffield th`t has

:58:01.:58:07.

been discussed. All I would say is that we are at the very beghnning of

:58:08.:58:13.

a long road. It is not perfdction that we seek now, or today, it is

:58:14.:58:20.

progress. I think we can sedk progress providing that we discussed

:58:21.:58:27.

this in a consensual way. So, the Minister may wish to respond to what

:58:28.:58:32.

I'm going to say now, or hopefully if he does not, then he will after.

:58:33.:58:39.

I would like to say that I `ssured the Minister and the Secret`ry of

:58:40.:58:43.

State would agree with me that any changes in local governments enabled

:58:44.:58:46.

by this bill, must be achieved by local consensus, with relev`nt

:58:47.:58:52.

partners coming around the table to agree a negotiated position. Giving

:58:53.:59:00.

this, and I draw the Secret`ry of State attention and he went affect

:59:01.:59:03.

attention to amendment 27, on the face of it this amendment stggests

:59:04.:59:08.

that districts whose areas form a part of a county could join a

:59:09.:59:12.

different combined authoritx without the need for any negotiation,

:59:13.:59:17.

consensus, or consent by thd County Council. This would be deeply

:59:18.:59:24.

divisive, in many areas and would undermine the very consensu`l of

:59:25.:59:32.

prose at the ministerial te`m of can have consistently stated in this

:59:33.:59:36.

house. Can the Secretary of State or Minister provide the house that the

:59:37.:59:41.

amendment does not give districts of the right to walk away with out

:59:42.:59:46.

local consensus? And that any changes will be done to a

:59:47.:59:52.

negotiation between district and county facilitated if necessary by

:59:53.:59:57.

the Secretary of State. I whll grab gladly give way.

:59:58.:00:01.

I do intend to speak at gre`t length about this issue later but since

:00:02.:00:08.

he's giving an opportunity to do so I would like to be clear th`t the

:00:09.:00:12.

amendment gives any councillen including districts the perlission

:00:13.:00:16.

to request to be removed or added to a combined authority but of course

:00:17.:00:19.

my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will revhew the

:00:20.:00:22.

case but forward by the Council and make a decision whether to go for it

:00:23.:00:27.

but only after, and I can rdassure the House today this'll the case

:00:28.:00:32.

when that any such decision will only be made following constltation

:00:33.:00:35.

and negotiation with relevant parties. Where possible and in all

:00:36.:00:40.

cases we would endeavour to seek and secure that consensus which I think

:00:41.:00:43.

it's characterised many of the discussions we have at any range of

:00:44.:00:46.

places so far and what is so important underpinning the

:00:47.:00:52.

government's approach to devolution. I am sure Madam Deputy Speaker those

:00:53.:00:55.

words will have been heard throughout this chamber but also

:00:56.:00:57.

more important perhaps will have been heard by all those who care

:00:58.:01:04.

about local government, all those impositions of authority and local

:01:05.:01:07.

government and I hope very luch they take the message from this that the

:01:08.:01:14.

government and the House is keen that there should be progress on

:01:15.:01:17.

devolution but that should occur on the basis of consensus, intdraction,

:01:18.:01:23.

negotiation, facilitated by the Secretary of State and the

:01:24.:01:29.

government and I could only add on a personal basis those people who have

:01:30.:01:32.

interacted with the Secretary of State and the Minister will make

:01:33.:01:38.

their own judgements about whether the Secretary of State can be

:01:39.:01:40.

trusted on these matters as far as I'm concerned, the Secretarx of

:01:41.:01:46.

State has got us to this position on devolution and as I mentiondd

:01:47.:01:50.

earlier was not possible under the previous Coalition government and

:01:51.:01:54.

was not possible under the previous labour government. Is a perfection?

:01:55.:01:58.

No. Is a genuine progress? H hope the answer to that is most dvidently

:01:59.:02:03.

yes. I will gladly give way. I'm grateful to my honourable friend and

:02:04.:02:06.

all this consensus can sometimes feel a little bit disconcerting but

:02:07.:02:12.

I think it is a good thing. The fact that the Minister has also set the

:02:13.:02:16.

respective amendment 27 that that consensus would be achieved, this is

:02:17.:02:19.

not about particular councils having been goes or unilateral cap`bility,

:02:20.:02:25.

this is about negotiating process. That for me as I think a very

:02:26.:02:30.

important step that the Minhster has underlined and put on the rdcord. I

:02:31.:02:36.

barely believe that my honotrable friend would be anything other than

:02:37.:02:40.

consensual copied wraps known a little more in recent weeks has been

:02:41.:02:44.

on provisional wing of the Labour Party, I do feel that his innate

:02:45.:02:50.

character is that of seeking consensus and I agree very strongly

:02:51.:02:55.

as I always do that my honotrable neighbour, the Member for Nottingham

:02:56.:03:00.

East and I hope very much that colleagues throughout the UK adopt a

:03:01.:03:04.

similar view and take us forward on this issue. I am grateful to my

:03:05.:03:11.

honourable friend for giving way. On the issue of consensus if the

:03:12.:03:13.

concert of that there are w`s his that are absent from the consensus

:03:14.:03:20.

in the shape of the public who are not always involved or even aware

:03:21.:03:23.

that these kinds of dealings are going ahead and do not their voices

:03:24.:03:31.

need to be somehow captured. I realise it is difficult. I think to

:03:32.:03:36.

an extent their voices have to be captured by those who seek dlected

:03:37.:03:39.

office whether they are in this house or in the localities. But it

:03:40.:03:44.

is really part of that question around a broader democratic

:03:45.:03:49.

settlement in which devoluthon is just one part. It is essenthal that

:03:50.:03:55.

that is not just the great `nd the good as I outline in clauses 1- .

:03:56.:04:00.

Cannot just be the great thd good, it has to be the most tremendous

:04:01.:04:08.

unprecedented outreach on a citizens convention. Even way beyond anything

:04:09.:04:11.

we saw in Scotland either through the referendum campaign. All their

:04:12.:04:18.

own citizens using all the lodern techniques of social media `nd

:04:19.:04:24.

technology of polling of eldctronic polling to actually bring pdople so

:04:25.:04:28.

that they do feel ownership and my honourable friend is absolutely

:04:29.:04:32.

right. Unless we build it and and people feel the proper debate has

:04:33.:04:38.

been had been it can be strdssed and fractured when people feel that the

:04:39.:04:42.

right thing has not been done. I would argue again in a sensd back to

:04:43.:04:51.

clauses 1-4 that a very bro`d-based exercise involving public

:04:52.:04:54.

participation of an unprecedented level will be necessary to settle

:04:55.:04:59.

our democracy over not just the next four years, but in something that

:05:00.:05:05.

will hold for 100 years aftdr that. It cannot be done on the back of

:05:06.:05:09.

some of us making that decision alone. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am

:05:10.:05:14.

going to ask for your advicd on a matter of order I do not know if I'm

:05:15.:05:19.

entitled to be that in a spdech but there are a number of amendlents on

:05:20.:05:24.

the other paper about health and I wonder if you felt we should talk to

:05:25.:05:27.

those matters now or whether we should wait until an actual break?

:05:28.:05:35.

The honourable gentleman asked a perfectly reasonable question. Just

:05:36.:05:38.

for once it is a question which the chair can answer. The answer is no.

:05:39.:05:44.

The matters relating to health are in the next group of which the lead

:05:45.:05:52.

amendment is New Clause nind. So we should discuss health at th`t point

:05:53.:05:59.

and not at this point. In which case I will limit my remarks fin`lly to a

:06:00.:06:08.

brief look at the manuscript amendment 56, which bears mx name.

:06:09.:06:15.

And just to wish it well, in terms of what it seeks to do, it `ppears

:06:16.:06:22.

to me is to have a degree of flexibility and allow that organic

:06:23.:06:29.

growth and development around our devolution proposals which H think

:06:30.:06:34.

is very welcome, but equallx, the Secretary of State needs to be

:06:35.:06:37.

reassured that this process will not drag on forever and I think it has

:06:38.:06:44.

an effect amendment the mantscript amendment if I am right by putting a

:06:45.:06:51.

and date on discussion -- and date copy there's an opportunity a

:06:52.:06:58.

gateway, a window, where colleagues and other local authorities can make

:06:59.:07:03.

representations but that is not going to track on forever. There's a

:07:04.:07:09.

lot of time in which to do that and that seems very appropriate and I am

:07:10.:07:12.

very pleased on that basis to have added my name to the amendmdnt. To

:07:13.:07:20.

the manuscript amendment. There are many other areas because thhs is a

:07:21.:07:22.

very large group of amendments involving issues that I could speak

:07:23.:07:31.

on at some length in terms of 1 and 17-year-olds review of governance. I

:07:32.:07:36.

think it is going to be verx important that as we have ddveloped

:07:37.:07:41.

what are now I believe 34 or so devolution deals, there is ` lot of

:07:42.:07:45.

best practice which by definition you cannot do as you are in process.

:07:46.:07:51.

There's a lot of really good practice about what has been

:07:52.:07:55.

devolved, how it has been ddvolved, how local authorities can use their

:07:56.:07:59.

powers copied it will all bd at different levels and differdnt

:08:00.:08:02.

speeds because again devolution means people doing their own thing

:08:03.:08:06.

not one size fits all that there is certainly a place for a gathering of

:08:07.:08:14.

best practice which can be shared effectively by all of local

:08:15.:08:18.

government so that the next set of deals and the next set of btilding

:08:19.:08:23.

on the pre-existing deals c`n be done in the best way. We do not

:08:24.:08:27.

currently have an institution that can do that despite the excdllence

:08:28.:08:32.

of the officials in the dep`rtment. We do not have what local government

:08:33.:08:37.

might regard as an independdnt institution to take that forward so

:08:38.:08:41.

I would have thought the concept of having a review about this `t an

:08:42.:08:44.

appropriate moment would make a lot of sense. It may not look that way

:08:45.:08:48.

to the Secretary of State who is battling his way through a set of

:08:49.:08:52.

deals with lots of particul`r individuals who have an intdrest at

:08:53.:08:55.

the moment and that can onlx be his main priority, but it could well be

:08:56.:09:00.

that when the dust settles, having some sort of adjunct to the LGA or

:09:01.:09:09.

whatever local government cdntral government, plans to make stre that

:09:10.:09:14.

all the learning from the fhrst set of proposals can be carried onto the

:09:15.:09:18.

next set seems to make a lot of sense. With that Madam Deputy

:09:19.:09:21.

Speaker I am not wishing to use any time. I have drawn my remarks to a

:09:22.:09:28.

close, just by saying that we do have now a set of devolution deals.

:09:29.:09:33.

The Boulder is rolling forw`rd, we need to keep the momentum going and

:09:34.:09:38.

in doing that I hope that everyone in the House will wish the bill

:09:39.:09:46.

well. New Clause one, local government constitutional

:09:47.:09:50.

convention. The question is that New Clause one be read a second time.

:09:51.:09:57.

Minister. James Wharton. Th`nk you Madam Deputy Speaker. I will begin

:09:58.:10:05.

with New Clause one -New Cl`use for which proposed the establishment of

:10:06.:10:08.

a local government constitutional convention. We have the opportunity

:10:09.:10:12.

on the first day of committde to discuss these amendments and as the

:10:13.:10:14.

honourable member for Nottingham North said they include the nuts and

:10:15.:10:20.

bolts of a body put forward by the political and constitutional reform

:10:21.:10:22.

committee which he chaired hn the previous parliament and of course

:10:23.:10:26.

which he has been bringing to the House the great wealth of knowledge

:10:27.:10:29.

that he acquired from sharing during that time and his attention -- and

:10:30.:10:36.

tension has been debarred to ensure that some of that experiencd can be

:10:37.:10:42.

read by anyone who feels th`t be concept of a constitutional

:10:43.:10:44.

convention has something to recommend it to the House. H hope he

:10:45.:10:47.

feels he has been successful in that name. I am certainly enjoying the

:10:48.:10:52.

debates we have had on the hssue and recognise his tenacity and

:10:53.:10:54.

consistency in putting this case before the House. I do not feel that

:10:55.:11:00.

it is necessary to go through in detail every stage of possible

:11:01.:11:05.

effects that New Clause one has but I think it's important to rdcognise

:11:06.:11:08.

that the honourable member has a number of points which draw on that

:11:09.:11:14.

experience and which certainly inform the debate on devolution But

:11:15.:11:17.

as has been the case in previous discussions of committee st`ge of

:11:18.:11:20.

this bill, I am not yet persuaded that we should go as far as to

:11:21.:11:24.

include New Clause one at this time in the bill that we are bringing

:11:25.:11:27.

forward in the steps that wd intend to take today. I will give way.

:11:28.:11:35.

Madam Deputy Speaker what the Minister confirm that as thd talks

:11:36.:11:42.

make rapid progress concernhng Gotland's money versus the rest of

:11:43.:11:46.

the United Kingdom, it will also be an aim of the government to ensure

:11:47.:11:50.

that England has a blog arotnd which they can choose how to submht. The

:11:51.:11:56.

right honourable Amber attends me to go further than I am able to any

:11:57.:12:00.

specific context of the bill which we are discussing here todax. But

:12:01.:12:05.

again I think he has been more than averagely consistent on this point.

:12:06.:12:09.

He is very clear about his position and he has put it on the record day

:12:10.:12:13.

as he has before and I think it is welcomed that he has done so. Madam

:12:14.:12:16.

Deputy Speaker I would look to be chair for advice as to whether he

:12:17.:12:19.

would like me to not comment on the other causes in this group were time

:12:20.:12:22.

very happy to do but of course I have not heard all of the comments

:12:23.:12:26.

of the honourable members in respect to those causes. On that pohnt is

:12:27.:12:29.

the Minister would care to wait until the end of debate than with

:12:30.:12:33.

the lead of the House I would call him again. I thank you for that I

:12:34.:12:39.

think it would be appropriate and responding to comments when we have

:12:40.:12:43.

had such a productive and hdalthy debate so far. That I am able to

:12:44.:12:47.

respond to specific things honourable members they and I look

:12:48.:12:49.

forward to the opportunity of speaking again as we regressed

:12:50.:12:58.

through this stage. I want particularly to refer to government

:12:59.:13:08.

amendment 27. The proposals for combined authorities I think is a

:13:09.:13:13.

very welcome concept. It is essentially about local authorities

:13:14.:13:16.

coming together where they wish to combine their approach, thehr

:13:17.:13:22.

workings, their functions to deliver better services and hopefully

:13:23.:13:26.

greater economic growth for the residents of their areas. It is an

:13:27.:13:30.

idea that was certainly pioneered in Manchester. The one difference

:13:31.:13:36.

between Manchester and other areas we are looking at is that M`nchester

:13:37.:13:39.

has had a number of authorities who have worked together over a period

:13:40.:13:44.

of time and they happen to be those authorities which were part of the

:13:45.:13:49.

old greater Manchester Metropolitan area. They were the ten districts

:13:50.:13:54.

that formed the old greater Manchester Metropolitan County. So

:13:55.:13:57.

they have always had a sensd of being together and working together

:13:58.:14:01.

over a number of years, but they also are all single or unit`ry

:14:02.:14:08.

authorities who have the abhlity to make their own decisions about how

:14:09.:14:12.

they come together, where they come together and what they do to form

:14:13.:14:16.

the combined authorities. As a relatively simple and easy

:14:17.:14:18.

arrangement in constitution`l terms. The difficult before some

:14:19.:14:25.

areas and I'm going to refer to my own area of Sheffield on is that the

:14:26.:14:32.

constitutional arrangements pare our strikingly difficult. And Sheffield

:14:33.:14:36.

we have the four districts which used to form the old South Xorkshire

:14:37.:14:40.

Metropolitan County that worked together for varying degrees of

:14:41.:14:43.

success since the counties were abolished and they came togdther to

:14:44.:14:49.

form the Sheffield combined authorities. The same is trte to a

:14:50.:14:55.

degree as well in Leeds where you have the five districts there that

:14:56.:15:00.

used to be the West Yorkshire Metropolitan County who havd been

:15:01.:15:02.

working together as a combined authorities. There are however some

:15:03.:15:08.

differences. These differences have been recognised at different times

:15:09.:15:14.

by parties across the House. In Sheffield, there are not merely

:15:15.:15:18.

before districts of South Yorkshire, there are five other districts which

:15:19.:15:25.

are districts that formed p`rt of either Derbyshire County or

:15:26.:15:27.

Nottinghamshire County, the districts of Derbyshire Dalds,

:15:28.:15:30.

Chesterfield, North East Derbyshire, and others. They're not part of the

:15:31.:15:38.

county but are very much part of the local economy of Sheffield of the

:15:39.:15:42.

Sheffield region that travel to work areas. That has been recognhsed in a

:15:43.:15:47.

number of ways. First recognised and I went to the first meeting of

:15:48.:15:50.

council leaders between those nine councils as they are, at thd

:15:51.:15:57.

shopping centre by David Miliband when he was number two in the

:15:58.:16:05.

department copy I think he was the officer deputy at the time `ny

:16:06.:16:08.

called authority together at the time and I thought there was going

:16:09.:16:11.

to be a reaction from the other districts of outside South Xorkshire

:16:12.:16:14.

baking Sheffield big brother was going to take them over. I remember

:16:15.:16:20.

the leader saying that it is good we are involved in this becausd I know

:16:21.:16:22.

that not everyone who lives and balls over what have a job `nd balls

:16:23.:16:26.

over. Many people who work hn Sheffield and have to travel to work

:16:27.:16:30.

there and therefore what happens to Sheffield matters to us how people

:16:31.:16:34.

get their transport from balls of her to Sheffield Manchester

:16:35.:16:36.

afterwards. Was around the table having those discussions and

:16:37.:16:41.

involved in the decision-making process and I think those wdre very

:16:42.:16:44.

wise words which have stood the test of time. The last collision

:16:45.:16:48.

government took a similar approach because when they formed thdy

:16:49.:16:54.

recognise that the historic regional boundaries were not always

:16:55.:16:59.

appropriate. I know the previous Secretary of State had a thhng about

:17:00.:17:02.

regions, and I think you allost had to cross yourself out and ptt money

:17:03.:17:05.

in the square box if you mentioned them. In some respects he w`s not

:17:06.:17:08.

always right damming the regional spatial strategies for everx evil

:17:09.:17:13.

auntie planet. But never thd less I think he had a point. That the old

:17:14.:17:19.

regions do not necessarily properly represent local economies and how

:17:20.:17:23.

areas worked in day to day life One of the fundamental aspects of that

:17:24.:17:28.

is that the districts of Sotth Yorkshire were in the Yorkshire

:17:29.:17:32.

Humber region of the districts in Derbyshire and are the old Dast

:17:33.:17:36.

Midlands region and very often things did not work there bdcause

:17:37.:17:39.

the two regional developer `nd authorities did not always be to

:17:40.:17:43.

each other. That is a fundalental problem for the Sheffield rdgional

:17:44.:17:47.

economy was the last governlent recognised in creating the lets and

:17:48.:17:52.

allowing the let's to be crdated themselves across the old rdgional

:17:53.:17:55.

boundaries to reflect the trouble to work areas and the local sub

:17:56.:18:01.

regional city region economhst. So the last government recognised

:18:02.:18:05.

that. We now have a challenge that so far the districts in opposition

:18:06.:18:10.

and North Nottinghamshire and north of her shirt have been to an extent

:18:11.:18:15.

able to have it both ways -, North Derbyshire. They could still durian

:18:16.:18:20.

as districts of part of the two counties but also on constituent

:18:21.:18:23.

have of the combined authorhty in Sheffield. Ultimately I think

:18:24.:18:29.

however the districts have got to make some sort of choice. Wd are

:18:30.:18:35.

going to have an elected maxor, we have had discussions and ardent

:18:36.:18:37.

about that but we are going to have an elected mayor in the Sheffield

:18:38.:18:43.

city region. Should the people of Chesterfield or any other p`rts of

:18:44.:18:46.

those districts be able to vote for the mayor and Sheffield which is

:18:47.:18:54.

going to cover transport and to deal and be in charge of transport in

:18:55.:18:58.

that area. Or should we havd a situation where they do not vote for

:18:59.:19:01.

the mayor and the mayor therefore only covers part of the trotble to

:19:02.:19:05.

work area with his or her transport responsibilities. That seems to be a

:19:06.:19:09.

logical. We are not therefore getting the point of having a

:19:10.:19:12.

combined authority which re`lly covers the city region and the

:19:13.:19:16.

trouble to work area. Or is it possible the people of Chesterfield

:19:17.:19:19.

to not have a vote for the layor because Chesterfield does not become

:19:20.:19:22.

part of the Sheffield city region combined authority? Yet that mayor

:19:23.:19:26.

under the proposals will be involved in discussions and decision,making

:19:27.:19:31.

about economic developed matters that affect Chesterfield in the even

:19:32.:19:36.

though there in a not that ` part of the combined authority. And

:19:37.:19:39.

individual was not elected by the people of Chesterfield will have a

:19:40.:19:42.

say in what happens in Chesterfield. I do not think that it's actually a

:19:43.:19:46.

reasonable position. But ultimately what the amendment here does is to

:19:47.:19:51.

make sure that in coming to a decision about the long-terl

:19:52.:19:55.

position, about where it thdir authority wants to be, the district

:19:56.:20:01.

of North Derbyshire and North Nottinghamshire will be abld to make

:20:02.:20:04.

their own decision about whdre they think they fit. Where their future

:20:05.:20:11.

lies. Without the County cotncils having a veto over that. I `gree

:20:12.:20:13.

with my honourable friend for Nottingham North hopefully this will

:20:14.:20:17.

be done by consensus and discussion because no one wants Chesterfield to

:20:18.:20:22.

feel it is no longer part of Derbyshire County, any -- for many

:20:23.:20:28.

other purposes and... I will give way. He is making a very powerful

:20:29.:20:35.

argument and he is absolutely right about consensus. Is also right about

:20:36.:20:39.

the fact that businesses do not recognise local authority boundaries

:20:40.:20:42.

so shortly when we're talking about we must opt about devolution on the

:20:43.:20:46.

economic area rather than political areas and there is a danger that we

:20:47.:20:49.

get sucked into political areas rather than economic areas. District

:20:50.:20:59.

council that will have to go to an area you're absolutely right that in

:21:00.:21:02.

the end they should focus on the local economy and what works for the

:21:03.:21:07.

economy in terms of creating jobs and growth and to developing gills

:21:08.:21:10.

and that is absolutely right in making sure the transport lhnks are

:21:11.:21:16.

there to do that. That is why I will ask the Minister to clarify one

:21:17.:21:19.

important point. That ultim`tely there may be a decision for the

:21:20.:21:22.

Secretary of State were admhnistered to make on these matters, it may

:21:23.:21:27.

well be that the districts hn North Derbyshire North Nottinghamshire or

:21:28.:21:30.

some of them decide to go to be Sheffield city region. I hope they

:21:31.:21:32.

do because that makes econolic sense. But it is possible ndver the

:21:33.:21:37.

less bad Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire might want together

:21:38.:21:42.

and other combined authoritx and you could have been a conflict between

:21:43.:21:45.

the two decisions copy I thhnk that point as I understand it with the

:21:46.:21:48.

amendment would be up for the Secretary of State to make `

:21:49.:21:52.

decision about where the districts went in terms of which combhned

:21:53.:21:55.

authority they joined because they cannot join to. The people know they

:21:56.:22:00.

can not have a boat for two elective merits in different combined

:22:01.:22:02.

authority. I hope when he does that he'll make the decision or hndicate

:22:03.:22:06.

that the key criteria you whll use is to look at what is right in terms

:22:07.:22:11.

of the local economy the pohnt that has just been made copyright in

:22:12.:22:14.

terms of the development of skills, right in terms of the development of

:22:15.:22:17.

economic growth and right in terms of proper transport strategx for

:22:18.:22:25.

those areas. A year with thd honourable member says. We have to

:22:26.:22:29.

do what is right if devoluthon is to be successful it has to recognise

:22:30.:22:32.

those boundaries which are lore as the honourable member for your

:22:33.:22:37.

counsel said more than the political boundaries but the economic and

:22:38.:22:40.

community boundaries that local people want. The secretary of state

:22:41.:22:43.

I am sure in necrotizing wh`tever powers he has from this process when

:22:44.:22:47.

discussing this bill have concluded will look as he had throughout

:22:48.:22:50.

devolution discussions to btild that consensus to ensure that de`ls are

:22:51.:22:56.

done I will stand the test of time that. Blue that is why we'rd doing

:22:57.:23:02.

this devolution bill in the first place of course I will give way I

:23:03.:23:10.

will eat care to think that we will have the selected mass to h`ve

:23:11.:23:13.

powers to relate the police and crime commission is clearly from his

:23:14.:23:18.

example Chesterfield chose to go with Sheffield rather than

:23:19.:23:20.

Derbyshire they would lose the right to vote for the person that holds to

:23:21.:23:24.

account their police force. I am not sure the Secretary of State could

:23:25.:23:27.

take this decision solely on economic powers in a kind of

:23:28.:23:32.

situation. I have not gone down that road at present and I think very

:23:33.:23:36.

sensibly because I think thdre is an avid complication manner on the

:23:37.:23:39.

police and crime commissiondr because clearly you have currently

:23:40.:23:43.

three separate police and crime commissioners covering the Sheffield

:23:44.:23:47.

city region. One for South Yorkshire, one for Derbyshire and

:23:48.:23:50.

one for Nottinghamshire. At some point way down the line, thdre might

:23:51.:23:54.

be consideration to those issues but I think very sensibly, the leaders

:23:55.:23:59.

in the Sheffield combined atthority have decided not to incorporate the

:24:00.:24:05.

police and crime Commissiondr's powers in their devolution deal I

:24:06.:24:09.

think precisely because it would then throw up exactly the sort of

:24:10.:24:12.

further complications that the honourable member has raised and

:24:13.:24:15.

what they have done is to kdep their devolution deal to the economic

:24:16.:24:20.

transport skills and growth issues which are precisely the ones that

:24:21.:24:25.

the Secretary of State will have to be minded to look at partictlarly if

:24:26.:24:28.

there is a decision to be m`de about which combined authority thd

:24:29.:24:31.

district is going to. I would finish on the point Madam Deputy Speaker...

:24:32.:24:37.

Of course I will give way. H am grateful to my honourable friend. I

:24:38.:24:40.

am sure you'll agree with this that we in an extremely complicated

:24:41.:24:45.

country both culturally and economically. One of the thhngs that

:24:46.:24:51.

has bedeviled trying to def`ult the powers to local authorities has been

:24:52.:24:55.

searching for perfect bound`ries. The perfect boundaries do not exist

:24:56.:25:01.

copy does he agree with me that it is better to devolve rather than

:25:02.:25:04.

spend forever looking for the perfect boundaries? Absolutdly and

:25:05.:25:09.

therefore I support the principles of the bill. Having said th`t, if we

:25:10.:25:20.

can do something to improve the devolution process I think this

:25:21.:25:23.

amendment does then I think we should be looking to do that as well

:25:24.:25:27.

because I want devolution to happen but I wanted to work and I think

:25:28.:25:31.

there is a danger to be Sheffield city reason proposals withott those

:25:32.:25:36.

North divers are districts without a 2 reflection of the whole child work

:25:37.:25:39.

area that the devolution wotld not be at economically successftl as it

:25:40.:25:44.

well with those districts joining. I except in the end it is a m`tter of

:25:45.:25:47.

think that that's what this amendment does is to allow those

:25:48.:25:50.

districts to express their own view about where they think their

:25:51.:25:53.

economic future lies without pulling out of the County for services in

:25:54.:26:00.

any way and it allows that to go forward without a veto from the

:26:01.:26:05.

County or without a particular issue of economic devolution with

:26:06.:26:08.

transport powers. It makes ` lot more sense for the Sheffield city

:26:09.:26:11.

region and I think also offdrs the same opportunities for the same way

:26:12.:26:14.

forward for the West Yorkshhre combined authorities and probably

:26:15.:26:16.

for the West Midlands as well. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:26:17.:26:26.

should be brief. I am pleasdd to follow the chair of the seldct

:26:27.:26:31.

committee. I thought his clothing line sums up our objective here this

:26:32.:26:37.

afternoon. We want devolution to happen between it to work. H want to

:26:38.:26:43.

speak briefly to new clause eight and amendment 57 and my namd and

:26:44.:26:51.

also touched upon amendment two All of which, I think share exactly that

:26:52.:26:57.

objective. Dealing very bridfly with the question of consent and of the

:26:58.:27:01.

referendum contained in amendment two. It does seem to me that if this

:27:02.:27:07.

process is to work, it is essential that it should have the consent of

:27:08.:27:14.

the people who are going to be governed under these new

:27:15.:27:18.

structures. If the argument can be made for the new structures, and the

:27:19.:27:23.

new form of government, than the government ought to have thd

:27:24.:27:29.

self-confidence to give people a direct say of the changes which are

:27:30.:27:33.

about to be introduced. Frol a greater Manchester perspecthve. I

:27:34.:27:39.

think it is possible that the government can make a case that

:27:40.:27:42.

would persuade people that ` new arrangement should be approved in a

:27:43.:27:48.

referendum. But, the very act of withholding that opportunitx to

:27:49.:27:53.

express their will, that opportunity to show a real consent for what is

:27:54.:27:58.

being done, I think in its self sows the seeds of difficulty and this

:27:59.:28:05.

Court and makes it less likdly that the arrangements I will givd way.

:28:06.:28:15.

And his speech on the 14th of May, the chancellor said, and I puote "I

:28:16.:28:21.

will not impose this model on anyone. " As my honourable friend

:28:22.:28:24.

agree with me the best to demonstrate that local people want

:28:25.:28:30.

the newer system is to hold a referendum. Wholeheartedly. With the

:28:31.:28:40.

new clause and the amendment in my name, on the order paper, I hope

:28:41.:28:45.

that the ministers even at this late hour rule recognise that it is very

:28:46.:28:49.

much in their own interests and in the interest of the governmdnt, and

:28:50.:28:56.

entirely in the interest of the people of the combined authority

:28:57.:29:00.

areas which may face these new arrangement of government. Hn order

:29:01.:29:06.

to accept the point, especi`lly I hope the sterling work that my

:29:07.:29:12.

honourable friend the parli`mentary undersecretary did in the l`st

:29:13.:29:15.

Parliament trying to ensure that people had the opportunity to

:29:16.:29:20.

consent to the arrangements surrounding our membership with the

:29:21.:29:24.

European Union. I know that he recognised it has been entirely

:29:25.:29:35.

consistent given his consensus. New clause eight, which stands `nd my

:29:36.:29:45.

name, is really in tune with the essence of the bill. The very

:29:46.:29:50.

essence of the intentions of the government. Because, there `re very

:29:51.:29:55.

few of us, I think on either side of the house who would argue whth the

:29:56.:30:00.

proposition that it is generally better for power and decisions to be

:30:01.:30:05.

exercised as close to the pdople as possible. It is almost bettdr for

:30:06.:30:11.

the visits to be taken more locally, for spending decishons to

:30:12.:30:16.

be taken more locally. What new clause eight seeks to do is place an

:30:17.:30:23.

extra protection in the bill, safeguard, which would seek to limit

:30:24.:30:30.

the occasions in which the new legislation could be used for

:30:31.:30:38.

devolution in the wrong dirdction. It is not really devolution it is

:30:39.:30:41.

the opposite. Of the capacity which exist and the bill as it st`nds in

:30:42.:30:46.

the present. For powers to be moved up, away from the people. Away from

:30:47.:30:53.

local authorities, which current Lee Wood currently exercise powdrs to

:30:54.:31:00.

the level. It is a very moddst measure which seeks, as I w`s

:31:01.:31:04.

surprised my honourable fridnd endorses that. I was surprised at

:31:05.:31:10.

just how modest it had becole during the course of this process. Perhaps

:31:11.:31:17.

with the endless car to see from the Secretary of State. But, all that

:31:18.:31:25.

new clause eight seeks to do is ensure that that should elect the

:31:26.:31:33.

authority... To the Mayor ldvel There will be a cooling off period

:31:34.:31:47.

the local election must be held This anti-devolution before it can

:31:48.:31:54.

become permanent. I think a modest but important safeguard, I hope the

:31:55.:31:59.

ministers will accept that ht will be and their interests and hn the

:32:00.:32:04.

interest of a good government. Two incorporate that safeguard. Perhaps,

:32:05.:32:10.

most important in this group is amendment 57. I think that's it s

:32:11.:32:20.

almost naturally as a part of a coupled with the proposition for a

:32:21.:32:26.

referendum. If you do not h`ve one of them, it becomes even more

:32:27.:32:30.

important that you do have the other. If the government is not

:32:31.:32:37.

going to convulse the peopld directly on the new governmdnt

:32:38.:32:41.

arrangements that applied to them while riling a referendum, then

:32:42.:32:46.

surely it is more important that the arrangements set up an amendment 57

:32:47.:32:50.

should be incorporated with the allow local authorities, and the

:32:51.:32:54.

event that the new arrangemdnts don't work, in the interest of that

:32:55.:33:00.

local authority area to seek at a future date to leave. With ` fair

:33:01.:33:09.

distribution of both the li`bilities and the assets of the combined

:33:10.:33:14.

authority, so I have sought to ensure proper fairness. In the

:33:15.:33:21.

eventuality that the local `uthority would reach a point that it was so

:33:22.:33:25.

convinced that the new arrangements were not at its best interests. I

:33:26.:33:31.

think that would just provide, first of all the necessary reassurance to

:33:32.:33:38.

people that this is not a irrevocable step. If it does not

:33:39.:33:43.

work, there is another way. Perhaps most importantly, what it would do

:33:44.:33:48.

is place a real discipline on an elected mayor. Aid of the planet to

:33:49.:33:54.

ensure that the holder of that office would at all times, seek to

:33:55.:34:00.

behave reasonably and to reflect the interest, not just of the m`jority

:34:01.:34:06.

of the area of the May oral authority but of the whole of it.

:34:07.:34:12.

And the risk that an elected mayor may at some point in the future seek

:34:13.:34:18.

to govern in a way that is clearly contrary to the interest of anyone

:34:19.:34:23.

or any part of the accommod`tion would be massively greater hf the

:34:24.:34:28.

bill were to proceed unamended. Again, I very much hope that

:34:29.:34:32.

ministers will recognise th`t the bill will strengthen and improve the

:34:33.:34:42.

provisions and amendment 57. Thank you very much mind that the speaker.

:34:43.:34:48.

I want to speak very brieflx in support of new clause ten. @nd also

:34:49.:34:55.

very briefly a comment on alendment seven. New clause ten seeks to

:34:56.:35:00.

reinstate the provision and of the bill as brought in from the Lord

:35:01.:35:09.

allowing votes for 16 and 17-year-olds and local government

:35:10.:35:12.

elections. Madam Deputy Spe`ker I support as a matter of principle the

:35:13.:35:16.

idea of votes for 16 and 17-year-old. Rather we are talking

:35:17.:35:20.

about national elections, elections and local government, or indeed

:35:21.:35:26.

voting in a referendum. So, I supported the case for 16 and

:35:27.:35:32.

17-year-olds to vote in the Scottish referendum. I have argued the case

:35:33.:35:38.

for 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the European referendum. It is their

:35:39.:35:46.

future ultimately we are debating. I very strongly support the c`se for

:35:47.:35:49.

16-year-old and 17-year-olds to have a say in the election of thdir local

:35:50.:35:54.

counsellor. I find a quite extraordinary that the government

:35:55.:36:00.

seeks to oppose this so strongly. I appreciate that the Secretary of

:36:01.:36:04.

State has on occasions indicated that there is a debate that he had,

:36:05.:36:07.

and there are many other occasions to explore this more fully, but how

:36:08.:36:13.

long does it have to take, what why can we not accept the princhple that

:36:14.:36:18.

16 and 17-year-old who cannot join our armed forces to defend this

:36:19.:36:24.

country, who can marry, who can indeed pay taxes on their income if

:36:25.:36:31.

they are in and work, but c`nnot have a say in how for example those

:36:32.:36:37.

taxes are raised, the extent of them and how they are applied. They ought

:36:38.:36:43.

to have rights as citizens `s the rest of us. I would urge thd

:36:44.:36:49.

government to think further on this. The point is also being madd, we

:36:50.:36:58.

often make the point about low levels of turnout amongst young

:36:59.:37:01.

people who are currently entitled to vote. We talk about low levdls of

:37:02.:37:08.

engagement in the process. H made the point in the previous ddbate on

:37:09.:37:12.

this issue, that young people are very interested in a whole range of

:37:13.:37:19.

political issues. They are dissing gays of the political process, there

:37:20.:37:24.

is no doubt about that. If we are to seek to change that. Having an

:37:25.:37:32.

opportunity to have as they would give them that regard. I thhnk 5%

:37:33.:37:42.

of 16 and 17-year-olds is indicative of a level of interest that the

:37:43.:37:49.

whole government are to recognise. I also make a point again as H did in

:37:50.:37:55.

a previous occasion that David Willis, a well-respected and former

:37:56.:38:01.

minister in the Coalition government has argued the point of a breaking

:38:02.:38:07.

of the generational contract. I think this is a really serious

:38:08.:38:12.

concern. Political parties tend to focus a lot of their attenthon on

:38:13.:38:18.

the interest of other peopld who of course tends to vote. There is a

:38:19.:38:23.

lack of attention I would argue are the interest of young peopld, and

:38:24.:38:30.

particularly the interest of 16 and 17-year-olds who have no bo`t..

:38:31.:38:37.

I'll be happy to give way. ,- vote. A few seconds ago the honourable

:38:38.:38:42.

gentleman was trying to convince the chamber that 16 and 17-year,olds

:38:43.:38:46.

should be allowed to vote bdcause they'd vote in the Scottish

:38:47.:38:53.

independence referendum. Now we are told that we are nor do bec`use they

:38:54.:38:58.

don't turn out to vote. Can he clarify which argument he would like

:38:59.:39:02.

us to accept. We saw in the Scottish referendum that if one seeks to

:39:03.:39:04.

engage with younger people, they respond. Paid part out in rdcord

:39:05.:39:11.

numbers 75% from a study th`t took place that any referendum for 1 and

:39:12.:39:16.

17-year-olds. I also made the point that there is in this country, I

:39:17.:39:20.

suspect he would probably agree a lack of engagement in the political

:39:21.:39:24.

processes as a whole of young people. It seems to me, that it is

:39:25.:39:29.

incumbent from all of us to change that. To get young people to fill as

:39:30.:39:33.

a part of the process and to participate in it. If you ghve

:39:34.:39:37.

people the right to vote at the age of 16 or 17 years old. Asserts

:39:38.:39:42.

sharpens the mind and focusds their interest because they actually have

:39:43.:39:51.

an opposite the to prospect in the clinical process. He is makhng his

:39:52.:39:54.

argument very well but I want to ask you this question. Does he think

:39:55.:40:00.

there is a place for unelected people in the House of Lords to make

:40:01.:40:04.

a decision on this or should this be reserved to the House of Colmons? I

:40:05.:40:09.

continued to argue very strongly that we should have a Democratic

:40:10.:40:14.

second chamber and we sought to achieve that during the Coalition

:40:15.:40:18.

government. Is sadly, honourable members on his side of the House -2

:40:19.:40:25.

blocks that very overdue reform I think the honourable member to my

:40:26.:40:32.

right seeks to agree with md from a sedentary position. But we have what

:40:33.:40:36.

we have and if honourable mdmbers opposite and stored in the last

:40:37.:40:41.

parliament that we still have to put up with an unelected second chamber,

:40:42.:40:45.

they have to continue to do the job as best they can. It is a rdvising

:40:46.:40:49.

chamber and I hope that thex will seek to make the argument again

:40:50.:40:54.

that 16 and 17-year-olds should have the right to vote. I hope I have

:40:55.:40:57.

responded adequately to the honourable member opposite, but

:40:58.:41:03.

David Willis made a strong case There is a break in the gendrational

:41:04.:41:09.

con tract. I believe that it is incumbent upon all of us to address

:41:10.:41:15.

this very serious issue and ensure that all political parties start to

:41:16.:41:21.

show a real interest in the interest of young people. And if 16 `nd

:41:22.:41:26.

17-year-old had a vote both at local government level and at nathonal

:41:27.:41:30.

level, there is no doubt at all that political parties would seek to

:41:31.:41:33.

focus more of their attention on the interest of those young people. I

:41:34.:41:40.

will give way. Thank you for giving way. He said at the interest of

:41:41.:41:43.

young people are not properly reflected partly because thdy did

:41:44.:41:46.

not vote. But if we give it to them, even the people who are even less

:41:47.:41:51.

likely to vote, think that hs going to change how government opdrates. I

:41:52.:41:54.

do not understand the logic. What they did not vote. But if wd give it

:41:55.:41:57.

to them, even the people who are even less likely to vote, think that

:41:58.:42:00.

is going to change how government operates. I do not understand the

:42:01.:42:07.

logic. What this this is thd arbitrary line. The current level at

:42:08.:42:14.

which people can start to vote is a arborist to cut off point. We chose

:42:15.:42:19.

to make it at the 18. My argument is that we can reduce it because people

:42:20.:42:24.

at the age of 16 and 17 do `s he rightly said have rights and can

:42:25.:42:29.

play a significant part in society door in the Armed Forces for

:42:30.:42:34.

example. Working and paying taxes on their income. Bearing. Thesd are all

:42:35.:42:40.

significant rights and responsibilities. If they h`ve

:42:41.:42:42.

rights and responsibilities, they ought to have a say in the dlection

:42:43.:42:49.

of and in the election of n`tional authorities as well. If he was

:42:50.:42:54.

charged with a serious offence, would he really wants 16 and

:42:55.:42:58.

17-year-olds serving on a jtry deciding on his guilt or innocence?

:42:59.:43:02.

I would not. I think there hs a level of maturity we are talking

:43:03.:43:07.

about. Drawing that line is an appropriate one. It did not want a

:43:08.:43:10.

16-year-old sitting on a jury deciding if you go to jail for years

:43:11.:43:14.

I suppose you don't let thel play part in the election of the

:43:15.:43:18.

government for the country. I think that is a decisive for the hssue

:43:19.:43:23.

that we are debating today. I repeat my argument, that if we are

:43:24.:43:29.

expecting 16 and 17-year-olds to be able to join the armed forcds, to

:43:30.:43:34.

pay taxes on their income, to marry, these are big responsibilithes and

:43:35.:43:38.

rights. They ought to have ` say in the election of the governmdnt,

:43:39.:43:43.

rather at national or local level rather than being subject to the

:43:44.:43:51.

imposition of... I will givd way. Some of the government membdrs and

:43:52.:43:56.

the arguments put forward bx the other side don't quite stack up

:43:57.:44:03.

Majority is not necessarily to do if you're a. People any age can be

:44:04.:44:10.

deemed as immature. I absolttely agree with the honourable mdmber.

:44:11.:44:15.

The argument opposite could be used by logical extension to denx

:44:16.:44:24.

democracy entirely. Or to ddny trial by jury. I would seek to oppose both

:44:25.:44:31.

of those logical extensions, and to make the case again for 16 `nd

:44:32.:44:34.

17-year-olds to have the right to vote. This bill today, we are

:44:35.:44:40.

talking about having a say hn the election for goodness sake of your

:44:41.:44:46.

local counsellor. If the conservative opposite is thd tube

:44:47.:44:49.

denies 16 and 17 euros with a basic right in they're own local community

:44:50.:44:52.

that I would strongly opposd them on that. I would urge the government,

:44:53.:44:56.

they say that this is an issue that deserves further discussion, I

:44:57.:45:00.

welcome that. But why can they not just get on with it a? And `ccept

:45:01.:45:04.

the principle and legislate for it today? I rise to speak to a

:45:05.:45:15.

amendment two standing in mx name. As a former counsel I want xour

:45:16.:45:23.

attention to my entry. The purpose of the amendment is clear, lainly to

:45:24.:45:29.

ensure that a referendum is held in a combined authority area bdfore any

:45:30.:45:35.

model of governance is about it -- adopted. I hope that they stpport

:45:36.:45:40.

this by putting their names to it. I know that there are a number of

:45:41.:45:43.

other two have some sympathx with it. May I thank the Secretary of

:45:44.:45:49.

State for his current understanding of my concerns, such a generous and

:45:50.:45:53.

fair approach as he is coming from across the house.

:45:54.:46:01.

I would like to extend a trhbute to my honourable friend who has handled

:46:02.:46:07.

by reservations with good htmour and more than a degree of tenachty and I

:46:08.:46:13.

think Hans is seriously -- H thank them sincerely for that. Firstly,

:46:14.:46:20.

this is a local issue of concern, given that my constituency hs part

:46:21.:46:24.

of the greater Manchester area. It has been marred from the eldcted

:46:25.:46:29.

mayor in 2017. There is, no real demand for the elected mayor in

:46:30.:46:32.

2017. There is, no real dem`nd for this animation On the contr`ry,

:46:33.:46:41.

despite my own personal skepticism that I argued in my second reading

:46:42.:46:44.

speech I am prepared to accdpt that perhaps there is some demand, and am

:46:45.:46:47.

perfectly willing to have pdople have their say as the referdnce of

:46:48.:46:52.

the reference of that they can express their views. Of course, the

:46:53.:46:55.

outcome either way is something that I would respect entirely. Although,

:46:56.:47:00.

not wishing to prejudge the outcome of such referendum, I would remind

:47:01.:47:04.

the house that directly elected mayors where every is a memory not

:47:05.:47:13.

to mention a widespread rejdction across the country in 2012. I

:47:14.:47:20.

thought the conservative party was right at the time. That marries him

:47:21.:47:23.

metropolitan areas should bd introduced if there is a referendum.

:47:24.:47:27.

The policy of holding a refdrendum was correct some years ago, I will

:47:28.:47:32.

contend that the opposite of the two have a Democratic division

:47:33.:47:36.

referendum remains equally valid today. Madam Deputy Speaker, my

:47:37.:47:45.

concern is this, I expect understandable to many colldagues

:47:46.:47:48.

who shared experience and local government, and it is this, when new

:47:49.:47:52.

models of local government `re seen to be imposed on areas. Even if

:47:53.:48:03.

Moyer is used, the danger roller copy -- did the danger will lurk.

:48:04.:48:12.

The break-up of centuries-old counties and the formation of false

:48:13.:48:21.

constructs, would aside the quake of the dinosaurs and I was not refer to

:48:22.:48:27.

anybody in this house. He whsh to take a valuable lesson from it.

:48:28.:48:31.

People should feel a sense of belonging to the area and which they

:48:32.:48:36.

live. And furthermore in thd case of this amendment, that should feel a

:48:37.:48:41.

sense of ownership. It is for that reason Madam Deputy Speaker, that I

:48:42.:48:43.

would like to see this amendment banning and my name I will give way

:48:44.:48:51.

briefly. What I'm trying to work out is what the honourable membdr is

:48:52.:48:54.

trying to achieve. The government has made it very clear that

:48:55.:49:01.

devolution deals as the goal said it will go ahead with an electdd mayor.

:49:02.:49:05.

Is a something that she is working on that at the population ttrns down

:49:06.:49:08.

the referendum and the whold dualism deal will fall? -- devolution. And

:49:09.:49:16.

is not to ensure that they fail but that the mayor is a prerequhsite to

:49:17.:49:22.

such a deal. As I dry my relarks to a close, Madam Deputy Speakdr I

:49:23.:49:29.

would like to see some in mx name been part to the bill. Thank you

:49:30.:49:36.

very much modelled Deputy Speaker. I want to go through something that

:49:37.:49:45.

was proposed today. The honourable member makes previous points, I wish

:49:46.:49:53.

to highlight new clause one, two, four, and six. The local government

:49:54.:50:02.

is entirely devolved, this Parliament has those skilled in that

:50:03.:50:10.

matter. And new clause six, he wishes to meet local councils and

:50:11.:50:14.

England equipment to the Scottish Parliament, but I feel it is not

:50:15.:50:17.

appropriate. They are not the same things. The Scottish Parlialent is a

:50:18.:50:22.

Parliament rather than being a local authorities. They are very

:50:23.:50:25.

different. I think the Arbor lady is misunderstanding the. I need to

:50:26.:50:33.

clarify. -- honourable Lady. I am not equating local authoritx with

:50:34.:50:39.

the Scottish Ottoman. I welcome the Scottish Parliament, it is one of

:50:40.:50:42.

the labour parties greatest achievement. Often without the

:50:43.:50:51.

cooperation of the SMP have created a magnificent institution. H have a

:50:52.:50:54.

degree of jealousy that the powers that have gone to Scotland puite

:50:55.:51:01.

rightly are not coming fast enough to England of us and the rest of the

:51:02.:51:07.

Union, if we we are unionists, we think the good things that can

:51:08.:51:10.

happen in a country can happen in all countries of the Union. LAUGHTER

:51:11.:51:15.

thank you very much, I'm not sure that he includes the in the

:51:16.:51:24.

statement... . I would say that because she is elected not to the

:51:25.:51:29.

union Parliament. This is not the Scottish Parliament so all of us the

:51:30.:51:32.

cure as part of the union P`rliament in Westminster. The point and a new

:51:33.:51:41.

clause five is that the imp`ct gives them the same physical... That does

:51:42.:51:53.

seem to me as if he has a comparison between the two. I am not qtite

:51:54.:51:57.

convinced that that is appropriate. New clause ten as a member from

:51:58.:52:04.

north of no-fault has so eloquently put, I think it is a sand that the

:52:05.:52:08.

government does not take thd opportunity to at least tri`l this

:52:09.:52:13.

in the local government. I think it is a worthwhile trial. It would be

:52:14.:52:21.

nice at least if they were rolling on this occasion to at least try it

:52:22.:52:25.

here. I think it is something very much worthy of examination. It has

:52:26.:52:30.

worked well in Scotland, thd 16 and 17-year-olds were given the vote,

:52:31.:52:34.

and have remained engaged. Those who are younger than 16 and 17, had a

:52:35.:52:40.

greater interest in the democratic process as a result. They p`id

:52:41.:52:46.

attention, as we said earlidr the bar has to be set somewhere. 16 I

:52:47.:52:51.

think is their reasonable place to put it. It has worked well hn

:52:52.:52:55.

Scotland. I would very much encouraged to happen here. New

:52:56.:53:00.

clause 12, it does seem reasonable to review how the NHS is trdated in

:53:01.:53:08.

the devolution deal. That sdems fairly reasonable. The honotrable

:53:09.:53:16.

member and amendment 58 and two I have a lot of sympathy for his

:53:17.:53:22.

comments. I think some of the evidence that we have heard

:53:23.:53:28.

suggested that they are not being fair to local government. I have a

:53:29.:53:34.

lot of sympathy for the point that he makes. Glasgow deal did not

:53:35.:53:52.

require any circumstance. The stage was given to that prospective

:53:53.:54:00.

committee stage. Finally, alendment number three, on the supplelentary

:54:01.:54:04.

vote system, I am not sure that the supplement to both of them hs the

:54:05.:54:13.

best system for electing anxbody. I certainly believe that the system is

:54:14.:54:18.

an ideal system in terms of a democracy. I cannot quite

:54:19.:54:24.

understand, perhaps more explanation. The majority of

:54:25.:54:34.

research suggest that that hs the fairway of electing people to any

:54:35.:54:37.

system of government. Thank you very much for your time. On this Madam

:54:38.:54:39.

Deputy Speaker. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:54:40.:54:54.

rise to speak to amendment 46 on the government amendment to amended 56.

:54:55.:55:02.

Though I have put my name to the amendment the original proposal came

:55:03.:55:05.

from right honourable friend the Member for Carlisle who apologises

:55:06.:55:12.

for not being here. The House will appreciate his constituency is very

:55:13.:55:16.

badly affected by the floods over the weekend to. On his behalf, Madam

:55:17.:55:23.

Deputy Speaker, the point I want to make is that this is a very modest

:55:24.:55:28.

change that gives better fldxibility both for the government and for the

:55:29.:55:33.

local immunity is. In a county where there is a clear wish for change,

:55:34.:55:36.

this can be achieved in a mtch more efficient manner, and one whthout

:55:37.:55:43.

too much delay. The amendment seeks to build on the existing legislation

:55:44.:55:50.

for changes and boundaries. Madam Deputy Speaker this is not ` radical

:55:51.:55:54.

change but it will make easher changes that both government and

:55:55.:55:57.

local people support. At my honourable friend the Member for

:55:58.:56:01.

Carlisle hopes that these changes may emerge for his own county of

:56:02.:56:06.

Cumbria where they are badlx in need and are widely supported throughout

:56:07.:56:11.

the county and could improvd local government and indeed lead to cost

:56:12.:56:16.

savings. I note that in his comments the honourable gentleman for the

:56:17.:56:23.

Member for not North spoke hn favour of this particular amendment and I

:56:24.:56:27.

hope that settlement will also be expressed by the opposition front

:56:28.:56:30.

bench and that we can procedd on this by consensus. With that Madam

:56:31.:56:35.

Deputy Speaker I hope the House can support that amendment. Thank you

:56:36.:56:44.

Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to support on the the amendments by my

:56:45.:56:47.

honourable friend the Member for Hazel Grove and to try and get more

:56:48.:56:53.

information to the Arbor lady as to why I am in favour. Let me start

:56:54.:56:59.

very briefly with referenduls where I have attached my name to `mendment

:57:00.:57:06.

to. It seems to me that there is a developing, slowly developing theory

:57:07.:57:09.

of referendums in this country that fits in with the parliament`ry

:57:10.:57:15.

democracy. That those of us who sit in this house and approve of the way

:57:16.:57:22.

our Constitution works. A great affection for the understanding that

:57:23.:57:26.

we are representatives, not delegates, that we are here to

:57:27.:57:30.

exercise sovereignty on beh`lf of the people for a five-year period

:57:31.:57:33.

before returning it to them in toto at the end of that period. That is

:57:34.:57:37.

the well-established constitutional position. But against that, I think

:57:38.:57:43.

in sympathy with that there is a developing view where referdndums

:57:44.:57:48.

are useful and moving from tseful to becoming essential. That is to do

:57:49.:57:52.

with the structures of government themselves. And the reason for that

:57:53.:57:57.

is that there is a permanency in the structures of government th`t

:57:58.:58:02.

outweighs the normal level of legislation that we deal with. It is

:58:03.:58:08.

quite right that Scotland h`d referendums on its decisions on

:58:09.:58:11.

independence and indeed on establishing a parliament in the

:58:12.:58:14.

first place, he cause those are effectively permanent decishons your

:58:15.:58:19.

reversible without the consdnt of the Scottish people. Unchangeable

:58:20.:58:22.

without a consent of the Scottish people. Likewise in Wales they have

:58:23.:58:26.

had referendums on their assembly and in Northern Ireland also. When

:58:27.:58:32.

looking at local councils and changes, if the structures `re to

:58:33.:58:38.

work, they need to go with the grain of popular consent. That authority

:58:39.:58:45.

when it is used needs to have a legitimacy and that legitim`cy is

:58:46.:58:51.

based in Democratic consent. I think where that is not given as was the

:58:52.:58:56.

case in the 1972 act, that there was a great deal of hostility to what

:58:57.:58:59.

was done because it did not meet the requirements of local peopld.

:59:00.:59:07.

Against this, evolving doctrine of referendums there is inevit`bly the

:59:08.:59:11.

government's view of referendums which I perhaps unfairly

:59:12.:59:14.

characterised as being we all have referendums that we think whll win

:59:15.:59:17.

them but if we think we will not win them it is a bit too dangerous so we

:59:18.:59:21.

will not take the risk. I think it is a pity that the government has

:59:22.:59:24.

not taken the risk with these new structures because if you look at

:59:25.:59:30.

the Mayor of London. The Maxor of London has enormous popular consent

:59:31.:59:33.

even when it was Ken Livingstone let alone now it is a great man my

:59:34.:59:39.

honourable friend the Member for Uxbridge. I give way. I am very

:59:40.:59:45.

grateful to my honourable friend at the London example is a casd in

:59:46.:59:48.

point because that system of rally was done and assented to by the

:59:49.:59:54.

population passed the referdndums. Exactly the point I was makhng and

:59:55.:59:58.

that is why there has been `ffection for the merit even for people who do

:59:59.:00:04.

not share their political dot I voted against having a Mayor for

:00:05.:00:09.

London. I thought another ther of government was quite unnecessary and

:00:10.:00:12.

we already have far too manx but because it had a referendum, the

:00:13.:00:16.

referendum was one. There is a legitimacy. The great city that I

:00:17.:00:20.

neighbour, the city of Bristol elected a mayor having decided to do

:00:21.:00:24.

so through a referendum. Thdrefore the people of Bristol have hnvested

:00:25.:00:29.

in that and given legitimacx to that stop me I cannot think of anything

:00:30.:00:33.

worse than having an elected mayor covering Somerset and I would oppose

:00:34.:00:37.

it to and nail. I think the watchwords will be Somerset will

:00:38.:00:41.

fight and Somerset be right. Of course I will give way. I stggest

:00:42.:00:47.

something that might be worse to him is that the outcome of his `mendment

:00:48.:00:52.

might not be -- might be th`t there will not be a mayor but there may

:00:53.:00:56.

still be a new combined authority with the devolved powers behng run

:00:57.:01:00.

by a sort of the era of leaders of other councils was local people will

:01:01.:01:03.

have no direct say to the policies of. If I may Madam Deputy Speaker

:01:04.:01:09.

you will indulge me momentarily I will compare that to the Cotncil of

:01:10.:01:12.

ministers and context of thd European Union with democratic

:01:13.:01:16.

legitimacy to ride from its constituent parts whereas a mayor

:01:17.:01:19.

and those without a referendum to my mind lacks that fundamental

:01:20.:01:24.

legitimacy. It is more like the president of the European

:01:25.:01:27.

commission. I think he is moving away from legitimacy by havhng a

:01:28.:01:34.

system that has not imposed -- has an imposed merit rather than one

:01:35.:01:39.

that is supported. Just to continue that debate does he not join me in

:01:40.:01:42.

having some concerns that pdople who will be taking the decision and

:01:43.:01:45.

spending that money exercishng that power will not have been eldcted for

:01:46.:01:49.

that purpose but for some vdry different position on a verx

:01:50.:01:51.

different authority that max be a very very much smaller scald. I do

:01:52.:01:57.

not accept that. I am not a big is a good advocate. I think that small

:01:58.:02:01.

can well be viewed. The be individual leaders of counchls are

:02:02.:02:07.

at the doubters of the interest of the population who has chosdn a man

:02:08.:02:10.

they are in their way like lembers of Parliament that they represent a

:02:11.:02:13.

specific area, a specific interest and can come together with combining

:02:14.:02:19.

that with others to see how decisions can be made. I sedn a lack

:02:20.:02:24.

of democracy in a group comhng together, each one of whom have an

:02:25.:02:27.

individual mandate. Indeed that can be a better Democratic mand`te than

:02:28.:02:36.

having a Mayor. I am enjoying his speech very much and followhng it

:02:37.:02:41.

closely. He may be interestdd to know and may already be aware that

:02:42.:02:44.

in greater Manchester which is really the point of origin of many

:02:45.:02:48.

of the things we are discussing today, the combined authority has

:02:49.:02:52.

actually worked and struck nearly well and those elected council

:02:53.:02:55.

leaders have worked together very well -- worked extraordinarhly well.

:02:56.:02:59.

It seems very odd to many of us that we move from the structure which is

:03:00.:03:05.

working well to which nobodx has any objections to the imposition of a

:03:06.:03:07.

completely different structtre without proper concern. I al in

:03:08.:03:13.

agreement with my horrible friend. I think that in imposing structures

:03:14.:03:17.

does not give them legitimacy, what gives them legitimacy is th`t they

:03:18.:03:21.

should go from the ground upwards. I think is of a fundamentally

:03:22.:03:23.

conservative view of how government is construct did. It is the little

:03:24.:03:30.

battalions coming together to do big things, jointly. Rather than a

:03:31.:03:33.

hierarchal system saying we know what is best for you. That hs the

:03:34.:03:38.

average of the honourable l`dy - ladies and gentlemen, the socialist

:03:39.:03:41.

approach as it is once again a Socialist party is about telling

:03:42.:03:44.

people what to do and giving them the figure to do it. Where hs the

:03:45.:03:47.

conservative illusionary approach is to allow able to come together, each

:03:48.:03:55.

one of them legitimately can do it and accept his point that combined

:03:56.:03:59.

authorities have worked by consent and do not necessarily need mayors

:04:00.:04:04.

but on them, super manors or Metro mayors put on top of them. Hf they

:04:05.:04:09.

have this done without referendum then we will be back here in 20

:04:10.:04:13.

years' time and I very much hope the honourable gentleman is still here

:04:14.:04:17.

in years' time so we can discuss these important matters. Of quest I

:04:18.:04:22.

give way to the honourable gentleman. -- of course I ghve way.

:04:23.:04:30.

I have a better chance at strviving a long number of years and H am

:04:31.:04:34.

taking a gamble year, but I have a better chance if we keep thd NHS out

:04:35.:04:41.

of his and the Tory hands! Keep the NHS public and I have a chance of

:04:42.:04:49.

making it! I do not think the prime minister had any intention of making

:04:50.:04:52.

me secretary of state for the National Health Service but now he

:04:53.:04:54.

has heard from the honourable gentleman. But we will come back to

:04:55.:04:57.

the legitimacy of these changes if they do not have referendums copy

:04:58.:05:02.

over the government may well push it through, may well order these mayors

:05:03.:05:07.

to be appointed, if there is not that validation to referendtms the

:05:08.:05:12.

component parts of these super areas will chase. They will say wd are

:05:13.:05:18.

paying taxes to pay for the centre of a city we have no real lhnk to.

:05:19.:05:22.

They will say we would rathdr have a system where we run from Whhte

:05:23.:05:25.

weren't banned by these people in the town hall year with whol we have

:05:26.:05:31.

no real link. But the referdndum lock fits with the grain of the

:05:32.:05:36.

developing referendum. Government that this country now has and will

:05:37.:05:41.

ensure that the process is lore successful in the long run. I am

:05:42.:05:47.

really think that in opposing this amendment the government is probably

:05:48.:05:53.

being short-term and I promhsed the honourable in that I would come on

:05:54.:05:58.

to the amendment and why I put my name through. I am very grateful

:05:59.:06:02.

that my honourable friend the Member for a logo for both it and had he

:06:03.:06:06.

not done so I would put on ly own motion to do this. I believd in

:06:07.:06:11.

first past the days as the fairest election system. I think yot get

:06:12.:06:15.

what you vote for rather th`n what you do not vote for. You get what

:06:16.:06:18.

you most like rather than what you least dislike. Andy fundamental

:06:19.:06:23.

problem with proportional sxstems is that nobody gets what they `ctually

:06:24.:06:26.

wanted. Everybody gets something else because the boats go off and

:06:27.:06:32.

all sorts of different directions whereas dot of course I givd way.

:06:33.:06:37.

Does the honourable gentlem`n feel that the 50% of people in Scotland

:06:38.:06:42.

who voted for non-separatist parties got what they will thought they were

:06:43.:06:48.

getting in getting only thrde members of Parliament representing

:06:49.:06:54.

50% whereas the other 50% got 5 members of Parliament? The

:06:55.:06:59.

honourable gentleman makes ly point for me that they got exactlx what

:07:00.:07:03.

they wanted. A referendum that decided they would remain p`rt of

:07:04.:07:06.

the United Kingdom and then voted champions took come here to

:07:07.:07:08.

represent the constituency by constituency that about first past

:07:09.:07:13.

the post work. I wish they had all done conservative it is a great

:07:14.:07:16.

shame they did not. By the system worked effectively to represent what

:07:17.:07:22.

most people in Scotland wanted. Sadly most people in Scotland did

:07:23.:07:26.

not want the Conservatives to have 56 MPs here. How this aberr`tion

:07:27.:07:33.

could have come about I do not know and I am sure in time it will

:07:34.:07:38.

change. But it was indeed worth in 1997. Actually the majority in each

:07:39.:07:45.

consistency where at least ` plurality and eight each

:07:46.:07:47.

constituency got exactly wh`t they voted for and not one of thd other

:07:48.:07:51.

three unionist parties in those constituencies was able to compete

:07:52.:07:54.

with that and that seems to be perfectly fair. Of coarse I give

:07:55.:07:58.

way. With the honourable melber agreed that the only reason that

:07:59.:08:09.

violent party is present is due to proportional representation from the

:08:10.:08:16.

Scottish Parliament? I think that would be untrue I would be `ccused

:08:17.:08:19.

of misleading the House. I think it has to do with the fact we have a

:08:20.:08:23.

fantastic leader of the Conservatives in Scotland and we

:08:24.:08:26.

have an inspired secretary of state and that two of them combindd to

:08:27.:08:28.

make conservatism in Scotland becoming forced. -- the comhng up

:08:29.:08:36.

for. But that is strained from the main topic -- straying as to why

:08:37.:08:41.

first past the post is a verbal system because I think it is

:08:42.:08:46.

important to have a victory for the most popular rather than thd least

:08:47.:08:51.

unpopular. It encourages thd most charismatic figures to stand, it

:08:52.:08:55.

encourages people to have a strong party affiliation to stand `nd that

:08:56.:09:00.

is important. I am not a grdat believer in having huge numbers of

:09:01.:09:03.

independence of running our great cities. I think there is a danger to

:09:04.:09:07.

that that if you take peopld outside the party system they do not have a

:09:08.:09:12.

particular badge to stand whth copy it is not clear of the outsdt what

:09:13.:09:16.

they represent other than independent. And they have no format

:09:17.:09:22.

in terms of who to get in touch with who is more senior in the political

:09:23.:09:27.

system to guide them. I am very grateful to the honourable lember

:09:28.:09:30.

for giving way and I totallx disagree with everything he is

:09:31.:09:34.

saying. Does he not think that there is a risk that with first p`st the

:09:35.:09:39.

post and local government one can end up with a complete 1-party state

:09:40.:09:45.

as has happened in some libdral Democrat councils, some conservative

:09:46.:09:48.

councils and indeed some labour councils and the result of that is a

:09:49.:09:54.

rotten borough with very poor local government and no accountabhlity at

:09:55.:09:58.

all? The right honourable gdntleman makes a very important point that

:09:59.:10:03.

having one party in office forever can create its own difficulties But

:10:04.:10:08.

I think with a mayor that is less likely to happen than actually with

:10:09.:10:11.

a local counsel with individual counsellors because a mayor stands

:10:12.:10:17.

as both a party figure and `s an independent figure. If we look at

:10:18.:10:20.

the mayoralty for London th`t is undoubtedly the case and th`t the

:10:21.:10:25.

conservative and Labour figtres have fought successfully have actually

:10:26.:10:29.

done so by being semi detached from their parties and building tp their

:10:30.:10:33.

personal following and I thhnk that would have in other places but it

:10:34.:10:38.

clarifies this and it is more straightforward if you have first

:10:39.:10:41.

past the post and whoever is the most popular Wayne's. And I also

:10:42.:10:46.

think to go back to the devdloping theory of referendums, it is what

:10:47.:10:51.

the rich people voted for btt we have a great referendum joining the

:10:52.:10:55.

cast during the Coalition government of which the honourable gentleman

:10:56.:11:02.

was a very distinguished part. In that referendum... They said they

:11:03.:11:07.

did not want the alternativd vote system, they wanted to stick to

:11:08.:11:12.

first past the post. I think for a government that has an opportunity

:11:13.:11:17.

to correct what was put in previously to go with what the

:11:18.:11:20.

electorate not only wants btt voted for, is fundamentally democratic and

:11:21.:11:27.

proper and it ties in neatlx with the original period I was dhscussing

:11:28.:11:30.

at the beginning of referendums that what is the right of the people is

:11:31.:11:36.

to decide who governs them, to decide the structures of government

:11:37.:11:40.

and how they relate to them. Then, the individual members, the mayors,

:11:41.:11:46.

the counsellors are entitled to operate the levers between dlections

:11:47.:11:48.

but how they vote, for whom they vote, for the regions for which they

:11:49.:11:53.

vote ought to be determined by referendums. We have had ond in

:11:54.:11:58.

support of first past the post, we have had one supporting a m`yor for

:11:59.:12:02.

London and it mayor for Bristol I think it is a mistake to ignore the

:12:03.:12:06.

very ghost of those votes and an error not to people the right to

:12:07.:12:10.

vote on their own instructors in future. Before I call the ndxt

:12:11.:12:16.

honourable gentleman I would just gently remind the honourabld

:12:17.:12:21.

gentleman for Bolsover I do not want to interrupt him when he was in such

:12:22.:12:27.

rhetorical form in his intervention. Matters concerning the health

:12:28.:12:31.

service come in the next group of amendments. The House very luch look

:12:32.:12:36.

forward to what he has to s`y then but that will be after we h`ve

:12:37.:12:41.

finished this group of amendments having heard Sir Edward Lee. Of

:12:42.:12:48.

course it is a pleasure to follow my honourable friend for North East

:12:49.:12:53.

Somerset with whom I normally agree. I quite understand his enthtsiasm

:12:54.:13:03.

for referendums. Which in one sense surprises me because it

:13:04.:13:07.

traditionalist like my honotrable friend for North East Somerset would

:13:08.:13:12.

normally have opposed the concept of referendums. He would have opposed

:13:13.:13:15.

it in the past because it w`s felt at this point it has been m`de many

:13:16.:13:20.

times in the House of Commons, it was a fundamentally on parlhamentary

:13:21.:13:26.

device and will often be usdd by governments which are dictatorships

:13:27.:13:33.

to actually impose extreme changes on society but I understand where my

:13:34.:13:36.

honourable friend is coming from the because in recent years refdrendums

:13:37.:13:41.

have been seen as a fundamentally conserve with a small seed force

:13:42.:13:44.

because generally the peopld vote against change. I understand his

:13:45.:13:50.

argument and why the governlent are wary of accepting any amendlent or

:13:51.:13:55.

voting a referendum because they have looked at what has happened in

:13:56.:13:59.

the past particularly in thd Northeast were the people h`d voted

:14:00.:14:03.

against change and the government allowed to charges forward `nd they

:14:04.:14:10.

fear that if there is a proposal for a referendum than usually the people

:14:11.:14:13.

will vote no. I think it's ` very interesting argument. At thd

:14:14.:14:18.

argument I want to really dwell on and stress relates to the alendment

:14:19.:14:23.

number 56 proposed by my honourable friend Berkeley and normallx I agree

:14:24.:14:31.

with him on most things but I have to say on this became a casd in the

:14:32.:14:38.

amendment concerns me. I want to make a few points to give the

:14:39.:14:41.

Minister an opportunity to reply to the sort of situation we have in

:14:42.:14:46.

Lincolnshire. My honourable friend represents northeast Lincolnshire

:14:47.:14:50.

and I represent Lincolnshird. Lincolnshire is a very consdrvative

:14:51.:14:56.

town the with a small seed County, so conservative that in the games

:14:57.:15:01.

were contingency I'm proud to represent we have only had three MPs

:15:02.:15:05.

and 90 years and all three have been conservative. Day to not like change

:15:06.:15:08.

in Lincolnshire. And what they are wary about is a notarized or voting

:15:09.:15:15.

in this amendment and I nothced right unusually the governmdnt

:15:16.:15:20.

appears to have accepted thd amendment and it is quite unusual

:15:21.:15:24.

that a backbencher comes forward with and amendment and the

:15:25.:15:28.

government excessive. What H think we are worried about in Lincolnshire

:15:29.:15:31.

and other rural constituenches as we want to concede by consent would

:15:32.:15:36.

seem to me to be an admirably conservative point of view. Normally

:15:37.:15:41.

if you proceed by consent you have to deal with the tried and tested,

:15:42.:15:45.

you have to bring things forward with you. I think many people and

:15:46.:15:53.

references are to be made bx to this of the evidence of the 1970s where

:15:54.:15:58.

ageing counties were swept `way Different enthusiasm spent, perhaps

:15:59.:16:02.

not in favour of elected maxors or referendums were unitary authorities

:16:03.:16:07.

but it was all in terms of efficiency. And we now know that

:16:08.:16:13.

this drive towards efficiency actually was fundamentally wrong and

:16:14.:16:20.

popular -- unpopular imposed Whitehall centralist ideas on what

:16:21.:16:26.

local people wanted. I see ly honourable friend who represents

:16:27.:16:29.

Beverly is here and before he created the Lucas County of

:16:30.:16:35.

Humberside -- Lucas County of Humberside destroying Lincolnshire

:16:36.:16:38.

East Yorkshire what matters. We know that is not the right appro`ch and I

:16:39.:16:45.

am not talking as a conserv`tive not just a party politician but somebody

:16:46.:16:48.

who tries to understand conservative values to concede with great caution

:16:49.:16:53.

and to take people with him in this matter. Because now elected mayors

:16:54.:17:02.

are all the rage but a few xears ago police and crime commissiondrs were

:17:03.:17:09.

all the rage. At me look at it. . Low turnout, lack of interest and

:17:10.:17:13.

not necessarily democratic accountability. In Lincolnshire we

:17:14.:17:17.

have a County Council which is generally well-run, popular, has

:17:18.:17:24.

been in place for 130 years. We have the district councils which have

:17:25.:17:28.

been in place for over 40 ydars I have to say, it is not for le to

:17:29.:17:32.

speak for local counsellors in Lincolnshire but as they cannot be

:17:33.:17:38.

in this place have only got me to say this and therefore I hope they

:17:39.:17:44.

do not mind if I do say that we do not want a solution impose on us.

:17:45.:17:51.

What worries us about this `mendment and be ready government accdptance

:17:52.:17:54.

of it is that at the moment we had the County Council and the district

:17:55.:18:01.

councils I think recognise that in terms of unitary authorities

:18:02.:18:04.

selected mayors devolution, we do not want to have a bruising battle

:18:05.:18:09.

over many years between the district councils and the County councils are

:18:10.:18:15.

doing on what should be abld -- abolished. What we really w`nt to

:18:16.:18:19.

proceed by as by consent. Wd want to get together, we are very h`ppy with

:18:20.:18:22.

ideas for the central government to devolve more powers into a County

:18:23.:18:27.

Lake Lincolnshire but we represent -- we recognise that we are not

:18:28.:18:33.

Lincolnshire Birmingham or London. We are a large and quite poor county

:18:34.:18:37.

with a low rate base, with ` very scattered population. There is no

:18:38.:18:43.

question that we could run the NHS or anything like that. We are not in

:18:44.:18:46.

that business. What we really want is to leave the present strtcture in

:18:47.:18:50.

place with district councils with counter councils and perhaps form a

:18:51.:18:55.

new body which will all be represented and onto that ndw body

:18:56.:18:58.

we would accept new powers. This is a sort of way that we want to

:18:59.:19:03.

proceed by consent. What worries me with this amendment and so luch of

:19:04.:19:07.

the discussion we have had so far is that in our rush for change and

:19:08.:19:14.

innovation we may actually `rrive Rush said on what local people and

:19:15.:19:20.

local counsellors want and date generally being sensible knowing the

:19:21.:19:25.

area want to proceed slowly, cautiously and I consent. Whth that

:19:26.:19:29.

Madam Deputy Speaker I feel I have made my argument and I will let

:19:30.:19:32.

others come in because I am sure they'll be far more than myself --

:19:33.:19:41.

far more interesting. I dis`gree with both the honourable melbers. I

:19:42.:19:47.

always thought if I should disagree with the member of North East

:19:48.:19:50.

Somerset eyes of the down and think again but in this particular case...

:19:51.:19:55.

I think there's a different case when you're selecting an individual

:19:56.:19:58.

who has quite significant powers that we should try to make sure they

:19:59.:20:03.

are present a large version of the boat that you can get from first

:20:04.:20:07.

past the post. I think that members would not want to see some dxtremist

:20:08.:20:12.

when a powerful mayoralty on some fluke election where there `re 4

:20:13.:20:15.

candidates. Ifex pact that hs unlikely but that would... H'm sure

:20:16.:20:21.

the people of France having seen their election results over the

:20:22.:20:23.

weekend are glad that when they get to their presidential electhon they

:20:24.:20:26.

have a runoff and if the front were doing on the first round th`t is to

:20:27.:20:32.

put in a non-extreme presiddnt. When selecting an individual to have our

:20:33.:20:36.

I'm not sure first past the post is the right answer and we shotld have

:20:37.:20:39.

the system currently used for London mayor and police commissiondrs where

:20:40.:20:44.

there is a runoff done throtgh the original votes to make sure that the

:20:45.:20:48.

post Matt Winston of command 50 of the vote. I also disagree whth him

:20:49.:20:54.

that actually not having eldcted mayor is the least worst bit here.

:20:55.:20:59.

If we're going devolve signhficant amounts of money and power to a new

:21:00.:21:03.

body that body needs to be accountable directly to the people

:21:04.:21:06.

and we need to actually havd people standing for that being elected for

:21:07.:21:10.

that on the basis of how thdy would use that power and the monex. I am

:21:11.:21:14.

just not convinced that when people let a leader of a district council

:21:15.:21:18.

with a small ?10 million budget which mainly does planning `nd

:21:19.:21:21.

refuse collection they would be thinking in that election that the

:21:22.:21:25.

Hardy I am voting for year or counsel which is the leader who will

:21:26.:21:29.

effectively be one of the ones with a veto over this new super body that

:21:30.:21:33.

covers in my area at least two counties. I do not think th`t is

:21:34.:21:38.

accountable to the people at all. I think it is bad for democracy and

:21:39.:21:42.

regressed recreating the police of 30 model that we do not think worked

:21:43.:21:45.

the aunt and much larger sc`le of more powers I think that wotld be a

:21:46.:21:51.

retrograde step for the accountability are considerdd that

:21:52.:21:55.

have looked people over counties. That is why I would not support that

:21:56.:21:59.

amendment. I want to speak on the amendment 56 on the amendment 5 6I'm

:22:00.:22:05.

right honourable 27. IM a stpporter of this devolution to English

:22:06.:22:07.

regions and I think the honourable member for Sheffield Southe`st may

:22:08.:22:16.

be right argument that I might Nottinghamshire and Derbyshhre we do

:22:17.:22:20.

not have a long-standing job be that people identify with and thhnk that

:22:21.:22:24.

a natural body of government I can identify with. I think we h`ve to

:22:25.:22:27.

proceed here quite carefullx and make sure we do produce the bodies

:22:28.:22:31.

of government the people do identify with and we'll say yes I can see a

:22:32.:22:35.

coherent natural fit. That hs where I look to for these decisions to be

:22:36.:22:40.

taken. I think he is right hn saying there may be some parts of North

:22:41.:22:43.

Derbyshire and Nottinghamshhre who may think they're better suhted to

:22:44.:22:47.

the Sheffield region rather than the Nottinghamshire one. I am pretty

:22:48.:22:55.

second beyond the running, not probably see that the quite firmly

:22:56.:23:00.

and painting it should be somewhere else that I think it is quite right

:23:01.:23:04.

that individual local distrhcts have the Democratic say and can say we've

:23:05.:23:09.

represent our people here. We think the right ways for us to be is in

:23:10.:23:15.

that region and if a failurd but should happen there should not be a

:23:16.:23:17.

Beta of command higher authorities that comes as a different

:23:18.:23:22.

geography. Clearly in exerchsing that right and making that decision

:23:23.:23:26.

the Secretary of State should try to achieve consensus and think of the

:23:27.:23:29.

broader picture and make sure we are not achieving some strange `nd

:23:30.:23:32.

erratic situation where the people of Bolsover if they chose to go into

:23:33.:23:38.

Sheffield certainly have no say of their own police force becatse that

:23:39.:23:41.

is now handled by the electdd mayor I think we need to proceed with

:23:42.:23:46.

caution on what powers go to these mayors. If they're going to be

:23:47.:23:49.

mainly economic powers and dconomic interest perhaps they could

:23:50.:23:54.

transport and not let the elected mayors become the replacement for

:23:55.:23:56.

the police commissioner if `re going to area their job. I think that

:23:57.:24:00.

could be a dangerous gap and even though I know that they're puite

:24:01.:24:06.

keen to replacing the PCs sdes I am not sure how you would elect one

:24:07.:24:09.

person to hold to account two different police forces copx that

:24:10.:24:15.

seems a bit strange on holdhng tube different bodies to account on. .

:24:16.:24:24.

I think everything about thd geography we ought to have ` proper

:24:25.:24:29.

thought and not just rely on some historic centuries-old setup of

:24:30.:24:33.

government bounties that perhaps do not make sense and the modern world

:24:34.:24:37.

-- boundaries. I think it is important that we step back and

:24:38.:24:40.

think what does a good systdm of local government look like hf we are

:24:41.:24:43.

going to have this extra te`rs because I am not sure many of our

:24:44.:24:46.

constituents will think this or having four different tiers of

:24:47.:24:49.

government. My constituents is already elect 21 downtowns whereas

:24:50.:24:56.

45 lower towns as they like to County Council to the Countx Council

:24:57.:24:59.

with more than 60 counsellors. I'm not sure there will too fancy

:25:00.:25:04.

electing a new mayor and another tier and paying for that as well.

:25:05.:25:07.

I'm not sure many of them understand very well what functions all those

:25:08.:25:12.

pre-tears already have and what the fourth one on top ado and they

:25:13.:25:15.

probably think that all those four have some role largely becatse that

:25:16.:25:22.

features quite large in most of the elections that we will see. I think

:25:23.:25:26.

if we're going to have this devolution we ought to step back and

:25:27.:25:31.

think actually is that a sustainable effective and efficient system of

:25:32.:25:34.

local government that our constituents can understand and

:25:35.:25:36.

support or should we take this as the driver to have a look at

:25:37.:25:41.

changing that system or havd having unitary councils with the ndw

:25:42.:25:44.

elected mayor for a larger region and that is why I do welcomd

:25:45.:25:49.

amendment 56 that I put my name to which would make it easier where

:25:50.:25:52.

there is some level of consdnsus in the area to have those new tnits

:25:53.:25:56.

being created. But it would not allow one small district across to

:25:57.:25:59.

counties to block the whole thing and reject having unitary atthority

:26:00.:26:04.

if there was a consensus th`t should be what should be proceeded with.

:26:05.:26:08.

I'm not sure of the directing of this amendment allowing Secretary of

:26:09.:26:12.

State to create only one cotnsel it seems a bit perverse and Derbyshire

:26:13.:26:15.

for one of the nine districts to be in favour and the County Cotncil are

:26:16.:26:20.

on the other eight districts to be against and Secretary of St`te

:26:21.:26:23.

having that power. I would certainly say that where the majority of

:26:24.:26:26.

districts and the County Cotncil are in favour or when the Secretary of

:26:27.:26:32.

State could use that power to create unitary authorities which I think

:26:33.:26:35.

would be more efficient cost effective and overall more

:26:36.:26:37.

effective. I do welcome that would appear to be excepting a minute 56

:26:38.:26:43.

with that change. Perhaps m`ybe in the Lord that they do accept it I

:26:44.:26:45.

can only think of one authority consenting have quite the rhght

:26:46.:26:53.

model... Other than that I will commend amendment 56 to the House

:26:54.:26:59.

Madam Deputy Speaker I have to say I am very concerned about amendment 36

:27:00.:27:05.

and that the government's acceptance of the. Object subject to the

:27:06.:27:10.

amendment a. The bridge is why I am concerned go back sometime. 20 years

:27:11.:27:17.

ago, I was a member of the local governments commission during the

:27:18.:27:21.

period of privileged to be ` member of this house. I was serving on that

:27:22.:27:26.

local commission. That commhssion was looking at structures of local

:27:27.:27:30.

government and England. It was looking at what the councils should

:27:31.:27:36.

switch from being to tier to begin to treat. The method we adopted in

:27:37.:27:44.

those days was to invite local people to submit evidence to invite

:27:45.:27:48.

the local councils to submit evidence and to hold public

:27:49.:27:53.

inquiries and hearings into that evidence. It was very much `

:27:54.:27:58.

bottom-up process. It was something that was decided by consensts in the

:27:59.:28:05.

local government commissiondd and then the local Government commission

:28:06.:28:09.

and of submit recommendations to the government which were abducted by

:28:10.:28:15.

Parliament if they involve changes. -- adopted. In the area of the

:28:16.:28:21.

country that I represent now, there was a very lively debate whdther or

:28:22.:28:30.

not a pool should become a tnit terry authorities. And whether or

:28:31.:28:36.

not the Dorset County Counchl should remain a County Council with a

:28:37.:28:40.

tier system operating in thd rest of the county. In the end, what was

:28:41.:28:46.

agreed was that that pulled will become a separate authority, ..

:28:47.:28:53.

That the whole of Iraq remahnder of the County Council would be to tear

:28:54.:28:59.

with Dorset County Council Dublin with demand services such as

:29:00.:29:03.

education and social servicds. And the borough councils dealing with

:29:04.:29:11.

services which were closest to the people. Madam Deputy Speaker, and

:29:12.:29:15.

nothing that has happened in the 20 years since then leads me to believe

:29:16.:29:24.

that people have Dorset are other than content with the current

:29:25.:29:30.

arrangements. I was told whdn there is all this talk about the

:29:31.:29:35.

possibilities of change, behng forced to use the government, I was

:29:36.:29:42.

assured by my friend that nothing would happen to change things in

:29:43.:29:45.

Dorset unless it had the wholehearted consent of the

:29:46.:29:52.

Council's concerned. On that basis, when there was a half-baked proposal

:29:53.:29:59.

which can forward pool, with a on what to try and set up a new

:30:00.:30:06.

combined unit Terry of authority incorporating Ishtar said in a,

:30:07.:30:10.

obviously that proposal would not have worked because Dorset County

:30:11.:30:17.

Council were saying with yot not think that is going to work because

:30:18.:30:22.

it would mean a part of our area, which enables us to be able to

:30:23.:30:29.

provide good services, would be taking away from us and no longer be

:30:30.:30:40.

included Dorset County. The line was no need to worry, because nothing is

:30:41.:30:46.

going to be imposed from thd centre. This is very much something that is

:30:47.:30:49.

only going to come up from the bottom. That is what we werd up

:30:50.:30:56.

until today. We been had thhs amendment 56 which was put down on

:30:57.:31:00.

the order paper, I I assumed they had not gotten the support of the

:31:01.:31:04.

government, and had not applied by mind into thinking we would have to

:31:05.:31:10.

oppose the. I assumed it was going to be opposed by the governlent

:31:11.:31:14.

Very much to my amazement, H find there is a manuscript amendlent

:31:15.:31:17.

would suggest that the government is accepting this amendment. Albeit on

:31:18.:31:21.

the basis that it would onlx be operative until the 31st of March,

:31:22.:31:26.

2019 what's happened to coincide with the end of current perhod for

:31:27.:31:33.

District Council. All the dhstrict councils which were collectdd in the

:31:34.:31:41.

last May elections, would expire at the end of March 2019. That is the

:31:42.:31:46.

amendment that the government has. We have not got any details on the

:31:47.:31:51.

government has to the criteria that they are going to use in order to

:31:52.:31:56.

exercise the very significant power which they will have to intdrvene

:31:57.:32:01.

against the wishes of one or more of the local councils in Dorset. Of

:32:02.:32:11.

course I give Wade. While the Minister is listening. It would be

:32:12.:32:16.

opened to minister to intervene to make clear that in a situathon like

:32:17.:32:20.

Lincolnshire in Dorset, that we should only proceed to power by

:32:21.:32:28.

consent. Of course it would be. I understand that I have been told

:32:29.:32:35.

privately that the government is neutral. They have no agend` to try

:32:36.:32:44.

and create a unitary authorhty. I thank the Honorable member. And take

:32:45.:32:51.

the opportunity has presentdd to confirm it is indeed the intention

:32:52.:32:54.

of the of the government to build a consensus. When I got to impose

:32:55.:32:57.

changes on every it that do not want to. The idea that we have bden

:32:58.:33:02.

persuaded by the amendment that has been brought forward the error and

:33:03.:33:08.

should not be prevented frol being part of devolution bills. Wdre

:33:09.:33:11.

looking to build that consensus and not impose Which have the

:33:12.:33:16.

flexibility to make sure we can deliver the deals deals that local

:33:17.:33:23.

people want. Cash he explained how he is going to deal with thd

:33:24.:33:29.

situation, for example in Dorset? You have the County Council, wishing

:33:30.:33:33.

to retain control over the `rea at which it currently governs. If one

:33:34.:33:39.

or more of the Council, the district councils in that area, wishdd to

:33:40.:33:51.

enter into a unitary arrangdment, who is going to prevail? Is going to

:33:52.:33:54.

prevail? Isn't going to be Council going to be the will of the borough

:33:55.:34:03.

councils? And I have in my constituency at number of

:34:04.:34:08.

counsellors who are both on the borough and County councils. To

:34:09.:34:13.

which group is the government going to pay heed? Is the goal ard they

:34:14.:34:19.

going to say it because there is no agreement, there cannot be `ny

:34:20.:34:23.

progress? Which I understood was the government's policy. Of course we

:34:24.:34:30.

want to find that consensus. As tempted as I am to discussing it? ,

:34:31.:34:38.

there is no... Any sort of rule that would allow districts to determine

:34:39.:34:44.

what happens. We want to talk with local areas, the representation from

:34:45.:34:50.

those every is an of course for Honorable members representhng those

:34:51.:34:53.

every is to build a consensts to how was the best go forward with this

:34:54.:34:56.

process. Secretary of State will apply tested this. I am gre`t. He --

:34:57.:35:11.

great. He a few months ago, it was very much this is going to be a

:35:12.:35:15.

bottom-up, driven by a local council. If they want to ch`nge

:35:16.:35:20.

then they would be able to. Now we're told that nobody will be able

:35:21.:35:30.

to... To ultimately be the government that will beside this.

:35:31.:35:33.

This is a very significant change of government policy. Announced and a

:35:34.:35:40.

form of a manuscript amendmdnt to amendment 56. I think it is terribly

:35:41.:35:48.

important. What I think my friend is looking for, is an assurancd that if

:35:49.:35:59.

either Dorset County, Countx Council does not want changed, effectively

:36:00.:36:06.

that would be a veto. The s`me would apply to Lincolnshire and rtle

:36:07.:36:12.

areas. Change would only first aid democracy by consensus. With the

:36:13.:36:14.

Minister said he was the perceived by consensus, I understand ht -

:36:15.:36:23.

that is the situation that hs important. I'm grateful for his

:36:24.:36:29.

intervention. Before his suggestion that we might be able to find the...

:36:30.:36:39.

And a minister who I knows hs doing his best to try and give us

:36:40.:36:45.

assurances, which is going to enable us to support amendment 56 rather

:36:46.:36:52.

than dividing the House on `. I m happy to give Wade once mord. -

:36:53.:37:03.

give way. . I think the Honorable member for giving way. I'll talk

:37:04.:37:11.

more about this issue in my comments later. I think it is import`nt to be

:37:12.:37:16.

clear that this is not about a veto, but we want to get its abilhty to

:37:17.:37:19.

build a consensus. The intention of big of the government is to work

:37:20.:37:23.

with local areas for economhcally sensible areas of devolution would

:37:24.:37:28.

structures in the film that allow those things to be realised. It is

:37:29.:37:33.

not about getting one area ` veto or another, or taking a mandatdd

:37:34.:37:37.

approach, about the place ability to deliver what and areas need and that

:37:38.:37:40.

would be realised. It is not about getting one area a veto or `nother,

:37:41.:37:43.

or taking a mandated approach, about the place ability to deliver what

:37:44.:37:45.

and areas need and that with the amendment allows and why we it so

:37:46.:37:48.

closely to see it discussed further and be a part of the bill. H am

:37:49.:37:54.

afraid that what he is saying goes against the position which we've

:37:55.:38:03.

already established. Namely that the government was not pushing `ny of

:38:04.:38:06.

this agenda, that this was `n agenda which could be promoted by

:38:07.:38:12.

individual councils if they wanted to and if they had the agredment of

:38:13.:38:18.

the neighbouring councils. Now we are told that no longer depdnds on

:38:19.:38:23.

the agreement of their neighbouring councils, but acted that thd

:38:24.:38:29.

government will intervene if they think it... I think that is what the

:38:30.:38:38.

Minister is saying. I had completely different proposition than what we

:38:39.:38:47.

had before. This is a sensational change and this whole bill because

:38:48.:38:51.

up until now we have been told that the government is enabling councils

:38:52.:38:56.

to do what they want. One of the differences is of this if this goes

:38:57.:39:05.

through, and that between now and 2019, and County successes Dorset

:39:06.:39:13.

instead of getting on-air branding local services for local people the

:39:14.:39:17.

counsellors and their officdrs are going to be preoccupied with our

:39:18.:39:24.

doing the task of new structures. Structures which I have alrdady said

:39:25.:39:28.

were established 20 years ago and have not been criticised at all It

:39:29.:39:35.

means that a small councils such as Christchurch Marriott... Borough,

:39:36.:39:41.

that counsel threatened with losing its independence. Likewise, each

:39:42.:39:48.

Dorset council is threatened with losing its independence. Ultimately

:39:49.:39:54.

at the bottom -- whelm of the government. It is all done

:39:55.:39:56.

supposedly in the name of devolution. Actually, a district

:39:57.:40:02.

councils is a very highly ddvolved body. It is close to the local

:40:03.:40:08.

people. It is decided those all-important planning applhcations

:40:09.:40:12.

in accordance with the wishds of the local two. The sink my Honorable

:40:13.:40:18.

friend in his place, he will will note that one of the region that a

:40:19.:40:25.

born world has a great blocks on us. It's because they have had a

:40:26.:40:31.

different planning policy from Christ Church, which has an equally

:40:32.:40:34.

delightful. But that has not actually erected by having these

:40:35.:40:41.

enormous entire blocks. That is why high cliff is still a very

:40:42.:40:44.

attractive place was to go `nd take a holiday. And other places I think

:40:45.:40:59.

our gems on the south coast. He is making it his usual

:41:00.:41:04.

characteristically robust speech. What I am slightly concerned by it

:41:05.:41:07.

that my Honorable friend is not take into account the fact that there is

:41:08.:41:12.

a very good photograph of the four leaders of the four local

:41:13.:41:15.

authorities he is reviewing to check in Canada by wondering to explore,

:41:16.:41:21.

together in a new formation. Localism is what the governlent is

:41:22.:41:24.

doing. Providing them with the opportunity to do that. To localism

:41:25.:41:29.

would be for us to let them get on with it. -- to localism. Thd

:41:30.:41:39.

opposition leader and pulls that he got it was very important that this

:41:40.:41:43.

issue should be dealt with by the people of a pool and there should be

:41:44.:41:49.

a local referendum. That was a pooh-poohed by leaders of pool and

:41:50.:41:55.

born with. My Honorable fridnd refers to leaders, but the problem

:41:56.:41:59.

is not the latest, but ensuring that the leaders reflecting Ackldy really

:42:00.:42:05.

the wishes of the people. At the moment, they have no plans `t all to

:42:06.:42:10.

consult properly the people of Christchurch or is Dorset. They are

:42:11.:42:17.

bringing in to some discusshons and those discussions, if you they are

:42:18.:42:23.

given the act of momentum that the Minister wants to give them by

:42:24.:42:29.

accepting amendment 56, those discussions are going to crdate an

:42:30.:42:34.

enormous amount of anxiety `mongst people in my area. Christchtrch

:42:35.:42:42.

very recently, had a local plant inquiry. They have now got ` new

:42:43.:42:48.

local plan and under that plan they are able to preserve most of the

:42:49.:42:54.

green belts and the area. Mx constituents are very generous -

:42:55.:42:59.

the jealous of the green belt. Why has it that cool want to get their

:43:00.:43:07.

hands on the land and each Dorset so that they can impose their planning

:43:08.:43:12.

policy on the green belt and expand outwards into our area. That is the

:43:13.:43:18.

perception of my constituents and that is why they are very concerned.

:43:19.:43:25.

Up until today I have been `ble to say don't worry, this is not going

:43:26.:43:28.

to make any progress becausd I know for a fact that the Dorset County

:43:29.:43:34.

Council, and the gods... Has an idea that they should have two boroughs

:43:35.:43:40.

within their 2-tier system, taking away from them. It would make Dorset

:43:41.:43:46.

County Council less valuabld. I assumed up at about that will give a

:43:47.:43:51.

Dorset County Council at veto and then that these half-baked hdeas

:43:52.:43:55.

would be making any progress. I give way. It is very difficult, `nd

:43:56.:44:02.

pretty clear that the government making decisions is like a bad

:44:03.:44:09.

package job. I actually livdd and represent them every a that is

:44:10.:44:15.

involved in the tool of these structures. One is dominated by a

:44:16.:44:22.

and before joining areas. Councils like Barnsley. That is now

:44:23.:44:31.

attracting the attention of at least three, maybe for and North

:44:32.:44:36.

Derbyshire, Chesterville, and possibly Derbyshire Dales. However,

:44:37.:44:44.

on top of that there is a P2 into power structures, which covdrs not

:44:45.:44:49.

to and Derbyshire. The real problem for this minister and it is time

:44:50.:44:56.

that he got to his feet, thd secretary of state, and explain

:44:57.:44:59.

precisely what will happen hf Sheffield demands demand thd powers

:45:00.:45:05.

that currently exists with the Derbyshire County Council, namely

:45:06.:45:12.

around transport and take it away from the county, what exactly will

:45:13.:45:18.

happen and those circumstances? Here you have two power structurds, both

:45:19.:45:22.

vying for the same thing and although Dorset is complicated, this

:45:23.:45:32.

is even worse. Madam Deputy Speaker, I instinctively think that the

:45:33.:45:35.

gentleman is right. I do not say that only because I have on my wall

:45:36.:45:41.

at home at a picture of his constituency, which was presented to

:45:42.:45:45.

me by his counsel when I was a good local government minister. H think

:45:46.:45:52.

he understands his experience, he understands the complexity of these

:45:53.:45:57.

issues and the potential impact that they can have upon ordinary people.

:45:58.:46:03.

That is why I am concerned `bout this and I know that the government

:46:04.:46:08.

sometimes get the impression is rather intolerant of those who want

:46:09.:46:14.

to raise issues such as this. I give way. Try to follow this closely I

:46:15.:46:22.

tried to square amendment 56 on government support with the

:46:23.:46:26.

assurances from minister. If the Minister is right, why would they be

:46:27.:46:29.

supporting MMS editions was well out and position -- which will `llow an

:46:30.:46:38.

position? I think he makes ` good point. May the Minister will reply

:46:39.:46:47.

to that. If we're talking about consensus, agreement between local

:46:48.:46:53.

authorities, then we do not need an amendment 56. Of merriment that the

:46:54.:46:56.

system is designed to enabld the government to intervene when local

:46:57.:47:00.

authorities or some local authorities do not do at thd

:47:01.:47:04.

government think they should be doing. That isn't what this is about

:47:05.:47:07.

essentially. We might as well face up to the reality -- this is what. A

:47:08.:47:13.

centralising part of this ddvolution bill because ringing power back to

:47:14.:47:19.

the government to an ever bhg a government to change the structures

:47:20.:47:22.

of local government boundarhes and ever give such as Dorset. Ftrther to

:47:23.:47:33.

the point made by my Honorable friend, if amendment 56 is

:47:34.:47:38.

accepted, despite the promises from the Minister, could this not be used

:47:39.:47:45.

as a lever against a counsel to say you better follow to live, or

:47:46.:47:48.

amendment petitions will be brought into play? -- amendment 56. That is

:47:49.:48:00.

exactly the way in which I envisioned this power being used.

:48:01.:48:06.

That is why I'm sure it is being, there was an attempt to smuggle it

:48:07.:48:11.

through at the last minute. And now we are exposing it for what it is. A

:48:12.:48:16.

power grab by the government to try and ensure that it can have the

:48:17.:48:23.

final word and deed the Council as it is not going to what it wishes to

:48:24.:48:33.

do. I am making an assessment that that my Honorable friend wotld

:48:34.:48:37.

support the amendment proposed by my Honorable friend, mainly have a

:48:38.:48:47.

referendum? I am a very supportive of that one. But have not h`d a

:48:48.:48:53.

chance to talk about it yet. Madam Deputy Speaker, because I w`s so

:48:54.:49:02.

concerned about this amendmdnt 6 and amendments a. I'm not going to

:49:03.:49:06.

restate the issue about the referendum, but I think a rdferendum

:49:07.:49:11.

is a necessary safeguard in this sort of situation. The unintended

:49:12.:49:21.

consequences can flow from local government reorganisation. @re such

:49:22.:49:25.

that if we look at the history books, we can see and the London

:49:26.:49:34.

education Authority was set up in London and was only when cotnsel

:49:35.:49:39.

started a campaign to abolish the authority, that education w`s given

:49:40.:49:45.

back to the inner London boroughs. As a result, or inner London bombers

:49:46.:49:49.

were able to gain economic growth as a result of having good quality

:49:50.:49:53.

education within their boundaries. The same thing happened with the

:49:54.:49:57.

Greater London Council. The Council was interfering in the life of the

:49:58.:50:04.

individual boroughs and a h`lf to What happened was, those in charge

:50:05.:50:11.

of the Baros at the time persuaded the conservative government to

:50:12.:50:14.

abolish the Greater London Council. As a result, parks are burndd by the

:50:15.:50:22.

local authorities, rather than being run by the remote authoritids -

:50:23.:50:29.

being run by. We need to have necessary safeguards if we `re not

:50:30.:50:35.

going to come up with proposals like this to the electoral, none of the

:50:36.:50:44.

stuff was in our manifesto. The suggestions that the good

:50:45.:50:48.

conservative government was going to restructure local authoritids in

:50:49.:50:52.

such a way to try and squeeze out small councils, which are closest to

:50:53.:50:57.

the people. If are not going to test this in a general election, and had

:50:58.:51:01.

gone to have to have an amendment 56 under statute until the end of March

:51:02.:51:11.

2019, I think it is all mord important that we should be able to

:51:12.:51:15.

have the safeguard of a refdrendum. The very safeguard which thd people

:51:16.:51:23.

of pool party and liberal Ddmocrats have sold to get from their

:51:24.:51:37.

leaders. Madam Deputy Speakdr, we are on the threshold of a bhg

:51:38.:51:43.

scratch of local government level between different councils,

:51:44.:51:48.

different tears, different counsellors and personalitids and

:51:49.:51:53.

political parties. This is going to threaten and preoccupied local

:51:54.:51:59.

government for the next four or five years. Will be able to look back and

:52:00.:52:06.

see the government wanting to interfere in areas where it should

:52:07.:52:09.

not be interfering at all. Ht should be trusting of the local

:52:10.:52:13.

counsellors, local people to decide what is best for them, and should

:52:14.:52:22.

not be taking a way that power to veto any proposals to changd the

:52:23.:52:26.

boundaries of upon which thdy operate. I very much hope that the

:52:27.:52:34.

House will not accept amendlent 56 as proposed to be amended bx the

:52:35.:52:40.

government. In place a government back into the position it w`s in

:52:41.:52:46.

before. To say it was genuinely fun local councils to decide and the

:52:47.:52:48.

government itself is not gohng to interfere. Or try to keep mx

:52:49.:52:58.

comments brief. -- I will try. A pleasure to follow my humbld friend

:52:59.:53:07.

who spoke powerfully on this. Madam Deputy Speaker, with deform`tion of

:53:08.:53:13.

a like to tell the House about - deformation something to happen and

:53:14.:53:17.

brochure. Many people for m`ny years had looked at the boundary of the

:53:18.:53:24.

city of whole. How it is to constrained and too little of the

:53:25.:53:28.

interim land within a. A lot of people that he'll make sensd to

:53:29.:53:37.

expand outside. The city of whole announced that it was that the

:53:38.:53:42.

commission to look at the b`tteries, look at the possibilities of whole

:53:43.:53:46.

expanding outward. It did so with little or no involvement of the

:53:47.:53:52.

Council. The response of thd Council was to call a referendum itself to

:53:53.:53:58.

the surrounding communities around poll to see what they thought. The

:53:59.:54:06.

interesting thing, nothing dlse going on, you might think that this

:54:07.:54:11.

issue of boundaries can occ`sionally captured the public cosmic

:54:12.:54:13.

imagination. Generally people will just accept a sensible top-down

:54:14.:54:17.

solution given to them by ldaders and government. On to say that all

:54:18.:54:22.

of us how careful we need to be There is a 75% turnout. I dhdn't

:54:23.:54:32.

have the figures at hand, around 75%. 96% said they did not wish to

:54:33.:54:44.

see that expression going to have. -- expansion. The possibility of all

:54:45.:54:50.

the Council that being an blind suggested just need a littld bit at

:54:51.:54:57.

push get through. We should be remarkably sensitive to how strongly

:54:58.:55:01.

the population can feel abott these things. Understanding Hull hs not

:55:02.:55:09.

absurd. Is not necessarily dvil And get, when they were asked, the

:55:10.:55:17.

people who sit there quietlx, people were talking about it, when they

:55:18.:55:24.

were asked, 96% as of three quarters of the population said no, no, no to

:55:25.:55:31.

the three questions asked. H had that to the debate. Just how

:55:32.:55:36.

sensitive we have to be an half asleep this thing can spiral out of

:55:37.:55:40.

control, cost political difficulty, and dissatisfaction. a you `s of the

:55:41.:55:53.

right tuned to hold a referdndum leads my herbal firmware? To be in

:55:54.:55:57.

sympathy with the amendment 56 Oregon State? It leaves me hn a

:55:58.:56:03.

position of having a profound doubt about amendment 56 and I re`lly

:56:04.:56:10.

appreciate the interventions by the Minister who set out my

:56:11.:56:12.

understanding that the government wanted to do. And Hull rathdr

:56:13.:56:18.

than... When there is a polhce reorganisation it was top down, they

:56:19.:56:22.

did not like it and it seems a much smarter move Tuesday it is not that

:56:23.:56:26.

we're neutral I think my frhend was right to say the government was

:56:27.:56:31.

neutral with a position and a vision. It is reassurances but

:56:32.:56:35.

whatever we think we think we're not going to push it on you bec`use we

:56:36.:56:38.

have seen that does not work. It has to go with the consent of pdople and

:56:39.:56:42.

there will be difficult leaders of councils who think for their own

:56:43.:56:48.

individual interests but actually we will bind our hands and restrain

:56:49.:56:52.

ourselves from pushing them aside. We will listen and only will say to

:56:53.:56:58.

everybody unless you can get a consensus we are not going to come

:56:59.:57:01.

piling in because we have sden where that ends up. It might be a Labour

:57:02.:57:05.

government instinct to think we know better than the people, it should be

:57:06.:57:10.

a conservative instinct to recognise they don't and even if the people

:57:11.:57:13.

who have their opinion are wrong, as history would show the people are

:57:14.:57:16.

wrong, get to decide and whdn they deal strongly that should bd

:57:17.:57:23.

respected. I feel right honourable friend has had a fair crack and I'm

:57:24.:57:31.

going to sit down. I think xou Mr Deputy Speaker. This group hncludes

:57:32.:57:35.

a number of quite a lot of new clauses and amendments and H want to

:57:36.:57:39.

focus my comments I merrily on the amendments that are in my n`me as

:57:40.:57:46.

have my all honourable friends touched on. I do not want to detain

:57:47.:57:50.

the House for too long and there is quite a lot of ground to cover so I

:57:51.:57:54.

will try to go through it at a reasonable pace. I will turn first

:57:55.:58:00.

to New Clause ten. Which proposes both at 16. The government seems a

:58:01.:58:06.

little confused on this isste. The Secretary of State said there is a

:58:07.:58:11.

debate to be had. The Minister for the northern powerhouse says there

:58:12.:58:14.

is not. The Prime Minister hs against it all together and yet we

:58:15.:58:18.

know they're looking at it for the European Union referendum and they

:58:19.:58:20.

supported it for the Scottish referendum. There are over one 5

:58:21.:58:25.

million 16 or 17-year-old in the UK that can get a job, and

:58:26.:58:30.

apprenticeship, get married, pay taxes, join the armed forces but

:58:31.:58:33.

apparently they are not responsible enough to be able to vote for their

:58:34.:58:37.

local counsellor to take decisions about the local services in the area

:58:38.:58:41.

where they made have bought a home and be living with their falily

:58:42.:58:44.

This bill is the ideal placd to bring about change. Incremental

:58:45.:58:50.

change is how the British constitution develops and allowing

:58:51.:58:55.

votes 416 and 17-year-old in local election seems to me a good place to

:58:56.:59:01.

start. The electoral Reform Society says that allowing this would

:59:02.:59:05.

improve registration rates with nearly 90% of 15 and 17-year-olds

:59:06.:59:09.

registered for the Scottish independence referendum in ` very

:59:10.:59:13.

high portion of them to parts in the referendum. 16 and 17-year-olds have

:59:14.:59:20.

a higher turnout rate than 08-3 -year-old and establishing that

:59:21.:59:24.

habit of going and getting hnvolved in voting in elections at an early

:59:25.:59:28.

age makes a lot of sense if you want people to continue voting through

:59:29.:59:32.

their adult life. The Scotthsh referendum that the president. It is

:59:33.:59:36.

unreasonable to extend the voting in one part of the union and not in

:59:37.:59:40.

another. Local elections suffer from low turnout so this is a good place

:59:41.:59:44.

to start. But if the Ministdr thinks this is not the time to introduce

:59:45.:59:48.

the chains perhaps in his comment he could tell the House if not now then

:59:49.:59:55.

when? The government has bedn unclear of moving on to New Clause

:59:56.:00:00.

11 about plans to devolve fhre and rescue to mayors or police `nd crime

:00:01.:00:03.

commissioners but we know the home office are pushing for it and that

:00:04.:00:07.

is included in the greater Manchester devolution deal. Our New

:00:08.:00:12.

Clause called on the Secret`ry of State to publish a review of how

:00:13.:00:16.

this bill affects fire and rescue services. As we have seen over the

:00:17.:00:19.

weekend and heard in the Fldming statement in this chamber e`rlier

:00:20.:00:22.

the fire and rescue service are doing an incredible job despite

:00:23.:00:27.

extremely severe cuts that have limited their capacity and reduced

:00:28.:00:32.

jobs by almost one third. The LGA, the cross party local Government

:00:33.:00:35.

Association believes there hs no pressing need or police and fire

:00:36.:00:39.

services to merge and any changes of the kind being considered ptblic

:00:40.:00:46.

concerns about safety. This New Clause simply adds a level of

:00:47.:00:50.

scrutiny and oversight to the provisions and I hope the Sdcretary

:00:51.:00:53.

of State and the Minister whll therefore welcome and support the

:00:54.:00:57.

proposal. Since 2010 local government has faced cuts of 40 ,

:00:58.:01:04.

and last month's spending rdview and pose a further six present hn cuts

:01:05.:01:11.

to counsellors. We know thex'll be changes to business rates once they

:01:12.:01:14.

are localised. We were promhsed details in the Autumn Statelent

:01:15.:01:18.

about how an equalization mdchanism would work and no such detahls were

:01:19.:01:21.

given. Templars have simply been left to plan their future btdgets in

:01:22.:01:26.

the dark despite cuts on a scale they have never been asked to deal

:01:27.:01:31.

with before. The local Government Association warned that loc`l

:01:32.:01:33.

authorities are struggling `nd that is even before his the spending

:01:34.:01:38.

review hits. Lord Porter thd conservative chair of the local

:01:39.:01:41.

Government Association says and I quote we know we have probably got

:01:42.:01:45.

12 or 14 councils that are very close to the edge now. They need to

:01:46.:01:50.

know what is going to happen to them in future if they're going to be

:01:51.:01:54.

able to avoid falling off the edge of this particular financial cliff.

:01:55.:01:57.

The funding settlement is ddeply unfair. The ten most deprivdd

:01:58.:02:03.

communities have suffered ctts 8 times higher than the least

:02:04.:02:07.

deprived. Councils with the highest rates of children in care h`ve

:02:08.:02:10.

suffered cuts three times hhgher than councils with the lowest number

:02:11.:02:15.

of children in care. And whhle labour councils are

:02:16.:02:17.

disproportionately hit by the cuts, there are also ones that ard

:02:18.:02:21.

protecting front-line services. Tory councils have shut out of their

:02:22.:02:28.

services since 2010. These tnfair funding settlements are madd worse

:02:29.:02:31.

by England's local government finance arrangements with the most

:02:32.:02:34.

centralised anywhere in the industrialised world. Counchls lack

:02:35.:02:39.

the freedom to and the needs of a can spend on local prioritids. Even

:02:40.:02:44.

London currently Lord of old than anywhere else in the countrx is

:02:45.:02:49.

reliant on central government funding for three quarters of its

:02:50.:02:53.

revenue. That is far higher than the 30% in New York and 25% in Berlin.

:02:54.:02:58.

London is the world's greatdst city and yet this government inshst on

:02:59.:03:06.

keeping it on far too tight a financial leash. The Communhties and

:03:07.:03:07.

Local Government select comlunity committed that local employdes and

:03:08.:03:13.

England have limited control over taxation and as a consequence rely

:03:14.:03:15.

disproportionately on centr`l government funding. We are proposing

:03:16.:03:21.

a New Clause that does not prescribe a particular settlement but calls on

:03:22.:03:25.

the Secretary of State to ptblish plans of a package of fiscal and

:03:26.:03:30.

financial devolution for ardas. First on business rate retention,

:03:31.:03:34.

councils need an equalization mechanism to ensure their

:03:35.:03:36.

communities with the lease capacity for economic growth are not left to

:03:37.:03:40.

think. Labour supports the localisation of business rates but

:03:41.:03:45.

has to be done in a way that incentivizes areas to grow without

:03:46.:03:49.

penalizing areas with less capacity to do so at the time or in the

:03:50.:03:52.

future. Nesters promised across the dispatch box here at details of the

:03:53.:03:58.

equalization would be made clear during the Autumn Statement but that

:03:59.:04:01.

did not happen and it still has not happened and we have not bedn given

:04:02.:04:05.

aid date of when it will happen We simply cannot allow rich colmunities

:04:06.:04:11.

to get even richer while I grew out of struggles to provide bashc

:04:12.:04:14.

services copy this New Clause calls on the Secretary of State to

:04:15.:04:17.

introduce an equalization mdasure to ensure the least well off are not

:04:18.:04:20.

hammered by this change. I will give way. He will be aware that people in

:04:21.:04:29.

rural areas are on average for than those in urban areas and th`t his

:04:30.:04:32.

government, the government of his previous answers left to right a

:04:33.:04:39.

system where there was 50% lore support per resident in urb`n areas

:04:40.:04:42.

wealthier than rural areas `nd it is more expensive to deliver sdrvices

:04:43.:04:49.

in rural areas. Is not survhving we do not see the same reduction in

:04:50.:04:52.

services in rural areas as we do in cities because they do not dxist in

:04:53.:04:55.

the first place and with his party that let it that way and ard now

:04:56.:04:59.

committed to a fairer systel going forward. The honourable gentleman

:05:00.:05:03.

seems to be supporting my c`se for an equalization mechanism and I am

:05:04.:05:06.

pleased to hear it. Secondlx I want to turn to tax rates and discount

:05:07.:05:12.

control. England has one of the most centralised funding arrangelents in

:05:13.:05:16.

the world. Whitehall takes decisions on council tax which means ht is

:05:17.:05:21.

barely local at all. The prdvious Secretary of State capped rhses

:05:22.:05:23.

while the Chancellor is not encouraging them to push tax cut

:05:24.:05:29.

that's --... Introduce greater local freedom overtax rates depending

:05:30.:05:36.

valuation and discount and third, I want to turn to multiyear fhnance

:05:37.:05:39.

settlement. Every successful organisation needs to be able to

:05:40.:05:44.

plan for the future. You cannot plant complex services without

:05:45.:05:47.

knowing what level of funding is available to pay for them. @s powers

:05:48.:05:51.

are devolved away from Westlinster local authorities need to know they

:05:52.:05:54.

have the resources to properly exercise those powers. Local

:05:55.:05:59.

enterprise partnerships could operate more effectively if they had

:06:00.:06:01.

longer-term funding streams and indeed the legal delete Mac regional

:06:02.:06:06.

development agency they replaced were able to make single per year

:06:07.:06:11.

funding agreements or let's have access to a smaller budget with too

:06:12.:06:14.

many small funding parts with constraints about how they can be

:06:15.:06:18.

used. We want to make sure combined authorities do not suffer from the

:06:19.:06:22.

same problem. Our New Clausd calls on the Secretary of State to allow

:06:23.:06:28.

for multiyear funding agreelents. Giving combined authorities the

:06:29.:06:31.

resources and time to ensurd financial stability and allow them

:06:32.:06:34.

to make better long-term decisions about local services. Turning to New

:06:35.:06:41.

Clause 14, we welcome the committee stage in the proposal that new

:06:42.:06:45.

subnational transport bodies must consult adjoining authoritids before

:06:46.:06:50.

taking decisions. On transport, the government recognised the ddvolution

:06:51.:06:53.

of powers to combined authorities concerned neighbouring authorities

:06:54.:06:58.

who do not wish to join or cannot join a particular combined

:06:59.:07:01.

authorities. This is an important principle but it extends to other

:07:02.:07:06.

areas beyond transport and the Minister's response to our `mendment

:07:07.:07:09.

at committee stage was disappointing. The Minister said it

:07:10.:07:12.

was not necessary or appropriate so perhaps today he will reconsider

:07:13.:07:17.

supporting this amendment. For example local authorities on the

:07:18.:07:20.

periphery of the greater Manchester combined authorities have concerns

:07:21.:07:24.

over health service decisions but will affect them on which they are

:07:25.:07:27.

unable to influence. We want to give them the right to be consulted. If

:07:28.:07:32.

the government is prepared to concede that in transport they

:07:33.:07:35.

should be consulted then whx not in health or indeed in other kdy

:07:36.:07:41.

services as well? Turning to the issue of mayors, the governlent is

:07:42.:07:44.

imposing mayors whatever thdy say, when making them a non-negotiable

:07:45.:07:52.

condition of devolution for metropolitan areas. We belidve the

:07:53.:07:55.

spirit of devolution demands that local areas should choose their own

:07:56.:07:58.

model of government instead of having it imposed from the centre.

:07:59.:08:02.

If areas want a mayor, find that it should not be -- should be fine too

:08:03.:08:07.

if they do not want a mayor. It is disappointing to see seven `nd

:08:08.:08:12.

related amendment allowing the Secretary of State to imposd a mayor

:08:13.:08:15.

on a combined authority even if there are one or more consthtuent

:08:16.:08:18.

councils who do not want ond. It is no surprise this amendment was

:08:19.:08:22.

written up by the local Govdrnment Chronicle under the headlind used to

:08:23.:08:26.

government powers to impose elected mayors. The government is acting in

:08:27.:08:31.

opposition to its own claims to support local decision-making in

:08:32.:08:35.

this respect. These powers hf they are agreed this evening must be used

:08:36.:08:40.

with extreme caution. Where a potential combined authoritx is

:08:41.:08:42.

divided over the details of a deal which it may well be, local

:08:43.:08:48.

cooperation must always be the preferred way forward and I would

:08:49.:08:50.

welcome a statement by the Linister or the Secretary of State to that

:08:51.:08:55.

effect. Our amendment 58 reintroduces the change madd in the

:08:56.:08:59.

Lords which stipulates the deep to leave with that -- devolution deals

:09:00.:09:03.

cannot be made dependent on having a mayor, a view that has support on

:09:04.:09:06.

all sides of this house as we have heard again this evening. Ttrning to

:09:07.:09:12.

a amendment 59, we had some discussion on the general power of

:09:13.:09:15.

competence earlier during this debate. Localism act 2011 introduced

:09:16.:09:22.

the general power of confiddnce intended to give local authorities

:09:23.:09:25.

more power and freedom to innovate, a good idea. But LGA research shows

:09:26.:09:30.

that the power is limited bx significant constraints set by

:09:31.:09:34.

central government and a local government needs are more

:09:35.:09:37.

independence from interference I central government. The constraint

:09:38.:09:42.

identified IV IGA include fhnancial structural and regulator a. Our

:09:43.:09:47.

amendment encourages the Secretary of State to review the power of

:09:48.:09:51.

general competence to learn how to make it more effective and to

:09:52.:09:55.

encourage greater take-up than the disappointing level that we have

:09:56.:09:58.

seen so far. Of finally I would like to consider government amendment 27

:09:59.:10:04.

and associated amendment. Alendments 27 would allow districts to join

:10:05.:10:09.

combined authorities without the consent of their county authority

:10:10.:10:13.

and vice versa. Our general approach to this bill is that decisions

:10:14.:10:17.

should be in the hands of the local area and the local people affected.

:10:18.:10:22.

That has shaped our view governance and it also shapes our view on this

:10:23.:10:27.

amendment. Xers or counties should be free to join combined authorities

:10:28.:10:30.

if that is their preference however we would like the Secretary of State

:10:31.:10:34.

to confirm that he is aware of the risk and understands them and will

:10:35.:10:39.

build an appropriate safegu`rds especially in relation to m`nuscript

:10:40.:10:43.

amendment 56 where the Secrdtary of State takes the power himself to

:10:44.:10:48.

impose a decision. That does seem a little draconian and we need to hear

:10:49.:10:51.

that it would only be used hn extreme circumstances. For hnstance

:10:52.:10:57.

authorities outside the arr`ngements need protection to ensure that they

:10:58.:11:00.

remain viable after any change is put through. We would welcole

:11:01.:11:04.

assurances from the Secretary of State that these powers would only

:11:05.:11:07.

be used in exception and th`t seeking consensus will alwaxs be the

:11:08.:11:13.

priority. I will ask to if he could concern -- confirmed that where

:11:14.:11:16.

district are part of a county choose to participate in a neighbotring

:11:17.:11:19.

combined authority letters will still have a vote in the Cotnty

:11:20.:11:23.

Council elections for the atthority within which the District shx. I

:11:24.:11:28.

look forward to hearing the Minister's response on thesd point

:11:29.:11:32.

and I give notice of our intention to test the House on amendmdnt 8

:11:33.:11:36.

and on devolution deals to be accepted without the dot will also

:11:37.:11:42.

seek a vote on New Clause tdnd to look Leigh lower the voting age to

:11:43.:11:47.

16 years old. These are changes that in our view would greatly strengthen

:11:48.:11:50.

a missy which I hope to see later on this evening succeed. Thank you Mr

:11:51.:11:56.

Deputy Speaker. The watchword of the debate throughout committee and

:11:57.:12:00.

indeed throughout the day h`s been consensus but I never thought that

:12:01.:12:03.

it would be consensus betwedn the honourable member for balls over and

:12:04.:12:07.

the Minister for Christchurch. That both a little further than H had

:12:08.:12:10.

anticipated we would be abld achieve. I will when I touched on

:12:11.:12:14.

the points we discussed earlier say if he wants to make a comment on

:12:15.:12:19.

that stage. I want to speak first having already discussed New Clause

:12:20.:12:22.

want to amend the New Clausd five being placed in this group copy this

:12:23.:12:26.

amendment poses the setting of commission to consider devolving tax

:12:27.:12:29.

and fiscal powers to a local level. I well know that the honour`ble

:12:30.:12:32.

Jennifer Nottingham North as an advocate of devolving power for

:12:33.:12:35.

central government. He will be familiar with the successivd past

:12:36.:12:39.

inquiries covering similar ground to which that he imposes today. I do

:12:40.:12:44.

not think a further inquiry into tax power devolution to local government

:12:45.:12:47.

will serve a particularly useful purpose at this time though

:12:48.:12:52.

recognising as always his consistency and eloquent in bringing

:12:53.:12:55.

these matters before the Hotse and so I hope that you'll agree to

:12:56.:12:58.

withdraw his amendment when we reach the end of this group. Give way

:12:59.:13:04.

Given that there is now no need for an inquiry since there is a

:13:05.:13:08.

precedent in Scotland where Scotland do retain an element of income tax,

:13:09.:13:15.

congratulations to that, thdre is nothing in the water in England that

:13:16.:13:20.

would stop us in England from also having income tax assignment so on

:13:21.:13:24.

that basis that there is now something stronger than an hnquiry

:13:25.:13:28.

there is a precedent approvdd by the Treasury, approved by this house in

:13:29.:13:34.

the 2014 Scotland Act I gladly withdraw the amendment Mr Speaker. I

:13:35.:13:42.

recognise what he says, I think there are complexities to stch

:13:43.:13:44.

devolution to local governmdnt and I'm sure those are complexities that

:13:45.:13:49.

he continue to argue. He will be dealt with in reality rather than

:13:50.:13:54.

just an period as these matters are discussed. I will not speak to New

:13:55.:13:58.

Clause eight tabled in the name of my honourable friend which would

:13:59.:14:03.

provide a cooling off or probationary period for the

:14:04.:14:06.

functions from a local authority to a combined authority. I know this is

:14:07.:14:09.

a matter my honourable friend has raised in previous pages on our

:14:10.:14:13.

discussion on this bill and a matter of great interest to him. I can see

:14:14.:14:17.

the attraction for an indivhdual local authority that this proposed

:14:18.:14:20.

flexibility might have applhcability to reversed eight converts ` powers.

:14:21.:14:27.

The very fact of the combin`tory might be as possible for only a year

:14:28.:14:31.

or so for those powers could be conducive to little action being

:14:32.:14:35.

taken under which would then be perceived as a temporary conferred

:14:36.:14:38.

function. The combinatory would almost certainly be reluctant to

:14:39.:14:41.

base any investment or other major activity on a function which they

:14:42.:14:45.

could lose in a few years' time moreover partners whether btsiness

:14:46.:14:48.

or other public art is what almost certainly be looking to entdr into

:14:49.:14:52.

arrangements which could so quickly be reversed. We consider thdrefore

:14:53.:14:55.

it would be very doubtful that activity within that probathonary or

:14:56.:14:58.

cooling-off period of any stch conferral of powers would ghve a

:14:59.:15:02.

realistic actor of how a colbined authority might operate in the

:15:03.:15:05.

future and a full range of benefits and improvements that might be

:15:06.:15:08.

achieved. The consider a better alternative and local authorities

:15:09.:15:10.

are not sure whether they whsh to confer a specific power would be fit

:15:11.:15:14.

to trial such joint working across the area of a combined authority

:15:15.:15:17.

through an former arrangements such as a shadow combined authorhty or

:15:18.:15:21.

joint committee. These models are available to local authoritx and

:15:22.:15:23.

combined authorities without the need for any secondary legislation

:15:24.:15:27.

to be made and I asked that the honourable member withdraw his

:15:28.:15:29.

amendment and not was to do a division of the House. I now wish to

:15:30.:15:33.

speak to amendment New Clause ten which seeks to reinsert into the

:15:34.:15:37.

bill because inserted in thd other place to amend section two of the

:15:38.:15:41.

representation of the peopld act 1983 to lower the minimum voting age

:15:42.:15:46.

from 18-16 for the local government franchise of England Wales. We

:15:47.:15:49.

debated Mr Deputy Speaker this provision at some length whdn we

:15:50.:15:51.

last met in committee. After which the House agreed to remove the cloth

:15:52.:15:57.

I a significant majority of 95. I think the message was clear then and

:15:58.:16:00.

it remains clear now. We have discussed quite widely the `ge of

:16:01.:16:06.

majority, those things 16-17 -year-olds are able to do or are

:16:07.:16:10.

prevented from doing by law and also the suggestion that young pdople are

:16:11.:16:15.

blankly engaged quite rightly so but therefore they should be given the

:16:16.:16:18.

boat a conclusion with what I do not agree. This debate has simply

:16:19.:16:22.

exposed a wider truth that they will hold range of views many of which in

:16:23.:16:26.

legislation and can best be described as encompassing the

:16:27.:16:30.

condition from childhood to adulthood. There's probably no clear

:16:31.:16:33.

point at which a person becomes an adult but it is a team not 06 that

:16:34.:16:38.

society draws the line. Any change the entitlement to vote... We should

:16:39.:16:43.

not be making piecemeal changes to the franchise. We be making changes

:16:44.:16:47.

and simply assume there'd bden no indications for areas where our laws

:16:48.:16:56.

for treating them different... The age used in most democracies is 18.

:16:57.:17:00.

The government has no plans to change it and indeed my right

:17:01.:17:04.

honourable friend the member reminded the House last timd that we

:17:05.:17:07.

have no manifesto mandate to do so. So recognising what the shadow

:17:08.:17:11.

minister says that the intended -- they intend to test the will of the

:17:12.:17:14.

House on this issue I would encourage the House to trust the

:17:15.:17:18.

government and the reasserthon of this cloth. I now move to Ndw Clause

:17:19.:17:24.

a 11 which requires the Secretary of State must publish a review of the

:17:25.:17:28.

fire and rescue services affected by provisions of the bill. This

:17:29.:17:31.

amendment is not necessary. Devolution is about enabling local

:17:32.:17:34.

areas to determine how that their services are delivered. Is therefore

:17:35.:17:38.

only right that fire and rescue authorities in agreement with local

:17:39.:17:40.

partners should decide how `nd when to review and assess how provisions

:17:41.:17:45.

of this act may affect fire and rescue services. Man also rdmind

:17:46.:17:48.

audible numbers as the requhrements of the fire national remark will

:17:49.:17:52.

continue to apply. With these donations I hope honourable members

:17:53.:17:55.

will agree to withdraw this amendment. Amendment New Cl`use 13,

:17:56.:18:00.

we are already major steps to devolve local taxes and havd only

:18:01.:18:03.

just set out plans for a radical devolution of this the powers. By

:18:04.:18:08.

the end of this prime and the local Government Secretary will rdtain

:18:09.:18:11.

100% of local taxes to spend on local government services. For the

:18:12.:18:14.

first time in decades well pull areas will see the full dirdct

:18:15.:18:18.

benefit of this is right growth in the local area. Will be granting new

:18:19.:18:22.

powers to elected mayors and authorities and will give all local

:18:23.:18:26.

authorities the power to produced business tax rates to support

:18:27.:18:28.

businesses in their area. As was confirmed in these pending review

:18:29.:18:32.

will set out detailed inforlation in due course and hope the House will

:18:33.:18:38.

agree that this New Clause hs unnecessary. I hope therefore that

:18:39.:18:43.

the honourable member will `gree it should be with John. I will now turn

:18:44.:18:47.

to New Clause 14 tabled by the honourable members are the that

:18:48.:18:50.

which will require the secondary as state to issue guidance on operation

:18:51.:18:54.

of peripheral authority. I do not believe this is necessary nor do I

:18:55.:18:59.

believe it is appropriate. Before making orders establishing `

:19:00.:19:01.

combined authority and orders for new functions to a new authority to

:19:02.:19:11.

I should say that to do so hs to... Additionally Parliament must approve

:19:12.:19:14.

such quarters. The amendment seeks to provide a further requirdment

:19:15.:19:19.

about how once established ` combined authority should go about

:19:20.:19:22.

the excise of its functions. Devolved to it. As with loc`l

:19:23.:19:25.

aborted, combined authority should go about the excise of its

:19:26.:19:27.

functions. Devolved to it. @s with local aborted, combinatory lust take

:19:28.:19:30.

their decisions having regard to all relevant considerations just at

:19:31.:19:31.

local aborted cannot be blinded to the impact of their decisions beyond

:19:32.:19:35.

their own trademark and combined authority. Neither any capable

:19:36.:19:38.

authorities nor combined authorities can be authority be ignorant to what

:19:39.:19:42.

happens beyond its borders. We do not have these provisions for local

:19:43.:19:45.

parties and it is the contention of the government position that we

:19:46.:19:49.

should not impose them on combined authorities either. Therefore, this

:19:50.:19:53.

proposed new policy is neither necessary or appropriate and I hope

:19:54.:19:56.

that the House will agree. H will now turn to amendment four, five and

:19:57.:19:59.

six would have been tabled hn response to amendment tabled at

:20:00.:20:05.

committee by my honourable friend. The first of these amendments to

:20:06.:20:08.

make sure the Secretary of State... Annual report on devolution to

:20:09.:20:10.

permit will include an permhssion on the extent to which powers `re being

:20:11.:20:14.

devolved to a mayor and also remain excitable by the Minister of the

:20:15.:20:18.

crown. Amendment five is a consequential amendment to `mendment

:20:19.:20:22.

for while amendment six to find the creators combined authority and

:20:23.:20:26.

minister of the crown. Is the governmentattention that function

:20:27.:20:29.

should be evolved as widely as possible there may be... If these

:20:30.:20:33.

expeditions I hope that honourable members will be able to accdpt

:20:34.:20:39.

amendments for five and six. Turning to amendment 58 if this werd

:20:40.:20:42.

excepted it would mean that any transfer of options to a colbined

:20:43.:20:46.

authority must dependent on the combined authority having a mayor.

:20:47.:20:50.

In its intent it is similar to the provision of the then Clausd three

:20:51.:20:55.

of the bill which was considered and converted to remove by a majority of

:20:56.:20:59.

81. That provision imposed ` specific requirement that Axmeric

:21:00.:21:03.

could not be a precondition for transferring functions to a combined

:21:04.:21:05.

authority. As I told the colmittee then, that provision was at odds

:21:06.:21:10.

with our manifesto commitment and this one is as well. In our

:21:11.:21:13.

manifesto be committed to ddvolve far-reaching powers of economic

:21:14.:21:18.

development social care and transfer to large cities which choosd to have

:21:19.:21:21.

elected mayors and. We are not forcing mayors on anyone or any

:21:22.:21:25.

place. Whether an area has ` mayor is a matter of local choice but of a

:21:26.:21:30.

area wants to have a dilution deal of the scale and the vision of

:21:31.:21:33.

Manchester we expect a mayor to be part of that bill. The effect of

:21:34.:21:38.

this amendment would to be stopped pursuing this manifesto polhcy

:21:39.:21:42.

putting the whole of future devolution at risk of challdnge and

:21:43.:21:45.

it is an amendment to which we are wholly opposed and an amendlent that

:21:46.:21:48.

we've ever hope will not be successful should be housed choose

:21:49.:21:53.

to divide on it. Amendment to provide that combined authority

:21:54.:21:56.

American be established onlx after a referendum and I was sent whth rate

:21:57.:22:00.

interest to the comments of right honourable friend the Member for

:22:01.:22:03.

Hazel Grove and the always persuasive comments of the

:22:04.:22:05.

honourable member for North East Somerset who was as ever persuasive

:22:06.:22:11.

eloquent but on this occasion I am afraid to say not quite persuasive

:22:12.:22:15.

enough. This requires the Sdcretary of State to make regulations

:22:16.:22:19.

governing the conduct of such regulations and we had an adjusting

:22:20.:22:25.

debate on the first day of consideration of the building

:22:26.:22:28.

committee about this very m`tter. I recognise that I was Ruby do be

:22:29.:22:31.

challenged by members from both sides about the degree of choice for

:22:32.:22:35.

local areas and while not sdeking to reopen the debate I must make clear

:22:36.:22:38.

again that the builders might give the government the power to impose

:22:39.:22:41.

devolution or a model of devolution on any area. The decision to

:22:42.:22:45.

approach the government proposal for the dilution of powers and the

:22:46.:22:48.

degree of devolution requirdd is a local one. By the same token, we

:22:49.:22:52.

have always been clear that where areas make that approach to

:22:53.:22:56.

negotiate the significant transfer of powers for example have five

:22:57.:22:58.

Artie said had the case in greater Manchester we would expect ` mirror

:22:59.:23:04.

to form part of that makes providing levels of leadership and

:23:05.:23:07.

accountability necessary to ensure it delivery of such a deal. Members

:23:08.:23:10.

also drew comparisons... I will give way. I wish you good clarifx this

:23:11.:23:18.

point though nobody would bd forced to go down this route. Does he think

:23:19.:23:22.

that amendment seven would lean that there is an objecting consthtuent

:23:23.:23:27.

Council would not be part of the mayoralty was? Areas will not be

:23:28.:23:36.

forced to be part of a devolution deal. If the mayor is a part of a

:23:37.:23:41.

devolution deal and am local counsel did not want to be part of ht it

:23:42.:23:44.

would not be forced by anything the government would intend to or can do

:23:45.:23:47.

to be part of that combined authority. It is a matter of

:23:48.:23:50.

building that local consensts of giving local people that choice A

:23:51.:23:59.

council that is part of a combined authority where it objects to a

:24:00.:24:04.

mayor but other members of the combined authority and the combined

:24:05.:24:07.

authority by majority vote for a mayor that authority, the fhrst

:24:08.:24:11.

authority will then leave the combined authority and not be in any

:24:12.:24:18.

combined authority of the m`yor The honourable member is correct where

:24:19.:24:21.

there is an existing combindd authority and a number of the local

:24:22.:24:25.

parties within and want to lake a deal but one does not, one or more

:24:26.:24:28.

do not, then we want to havd the possibility that they are ehther not

:24:29.:24:31.

to be forced in any way to dnter into a deal they do not agrde but

:24:32.:24:35.

instead able to leave and not be part of that devolution deal.

:24:36.:24:38.

Holding a referendum on the narrow question of whether there should be

:24:39.:24:41.

a mayor risk not fully recognising the choice that is to be made happy

:24:42.:24:45.

it also fails to recognise the will of those who have been elected by

:24:46.:24:49.

people of their area to represent them and to make necessary decisions

:24:50.:24:52.

to safeguard their well-being and prosperity of the area. Of course

:24:53.:24:55.

there is to methodically eldcted locally who want to have her guard

:24:56.:25:00.

the views of the annuities `nd businesses and their air and the

:25:01.:25:02.

voluntary sector of those who live and work there but we should have

:25:03.:25:05.

the confidence and those collected in those areas to grasp

:25:06.:25:07.

opportunities this bill makds possible. To consider the ddgree of

:25:08.:25:12.

devolved power that is appropriate and deliverable in each of their

:25:13.:25:15.

area of soppy to enter into negotiations with government and in

:25:16.:25:17.

what is a fast-moving environment to take the decision that will best

:25:18.:25:20.

deliver the economic growth and development that they have @rtie

:25:21.:25:24.

been mandated to deliver. Are Democratic traditions are not

:25:25.:25:27.

demanded the approach provided for in by this amendment although I

:25:28.:25:30.

recognise the ingenious way in which the honourable member for North East

:25:31.:25:33.

Somerset argued that perhaps he felt we were transitioning to a place

:25:34.:25:36.

where they would copy I do not think we are in that place yet. Indeed the

:25:37.:25:40.

approach we have in the bill of the choice for combined authority mayor

:25:41.:25:43.

being made by councils is exactly the same approach that is open to

:25:44.:25:46.

councils for choosing a loc`l authority mayor. For these reasons

:25:47.:25:51.

we cannot accept this amendlent I will only because it is the

:25:52.:25:55.

honourable member. I'm very concerned that we may be warned me

:25:56.:26:03.

not be the exception to this. He would've the Minister's proposal?

:26:04.:26:08.

Whether the Isle of Wight w`s part of any depletion deal would be a

:26:09.:26:12.

matter for the Isle of Wight not impose on any area. Regarding which

:26:13.:26:18.

areas want to see a mayor as part of the deal would depend on thd deal

:26:19.:26:21.

but is being asked for and the discussions that took place. There

:26:22.:26:24.

is no single fixed model th`t we would look to apply, cookie,cutter

:26:25.:26:28.

like in different communitids that I can assure the honourable mdmber at

:26:29.:26:32.

the Isle of Wight did not w`nt to be part of something if elbow not serve

:26:33.:26:35.

the interest there is nothing in this bill that would allow ts to

:26:36.:26:39.

compel it to do so. I will now speak to amendment 57 tabled in the name

:26:40.:26:42.

of my honourable friend. Whhch would enable local authority to ldave a

:26:43.:26:46.

mineral combined authority `nd should this happen provide for a

:26:47.:26:51.

fair division of resources. Be existing combined authority

:26:52.:26:54.

legislation section 106 of the local democracy economic developmdnt and

:26:55.:26:58.

construction act 2009 and the bill already enables orders to bd made to

:26:59.:27:02.

remove a local of 30 from a combined authority with consent from the area

:27:03.:27:06.

agreement from the Secretarx of State and approval from parliament.

:27:07.:27:09.

There would've courts be a number of practical issues to deal before

:27:10.:27:13.

making such an order. Setting up alternative operational

:27:14.:27:14.

arrangements, working out how to divide budget and contractu`l

:27:15.:27:19.

arrangements etc. The 2009 `ct in this bill also provide for the. If

:27:20.:27:23.

an order is made to remove ` local Dory from a combined authorhty it

:27:24.:27:27.

must specify an authority to become a local transport Authority and the

:27:28.:27:29.

bill provides further power to enable such an order to transport

:27:30.:27:33.

combined authority functions to another public authority or to be

:27:34.:27:37.

seized. We consider that thdse provisions provide all the powers

:27:38.:27:40.

and flex ability necessary to enable of the globe authority to bd the

:27:41.:27:43.

combined authority where thhs is wanted locally where the Secretary

:27:44.:27:55.

of State considers that to do so is likely to improve the statutory

:27:56.:27:57.

functions and has regard to the need to reflect the identities interest

:27:58.:28:00.

of local communities and to secure effective and convenient local

:28:01.:28:01.

government and where Parlialent approves the making of such an

:28:02.:28:04.

order. With these assurances I will look to my honourable friend to

:28:05.:28:06.

withdraw this amendment. I now turn to amendment seven 81315 180920 26

:28:07.:28:11.

and 54. The bill already en`bles one local authority to be a movd from

:28:12.:28:14.

the combine a party that dods not wish to come agree to the

:28:15.:28:18.

combinatory's proposal to adopt the addition of mayor.

:28:19.:28:24.

These amendments extend the provisions. It would mean the F

:28:25.:28:28.

Amor councils within a combhned authority to not wisdom abott a

:28:29.:28:32.

particular aspect of a devolution Bill, but to combine authorhties and

:28:33.:28:35.

other councils within it do, than the area of the combined authorities

:28:36.:28:38.

change tour move the Council that do not wish to participate. I give

:28:39.:28:46.

play. Basket by. I will attdmpt to reassure the House that the

:28:47.:28:51.

emphasis, I think the shadow Minister made this point, whll be a

:28:52.:28:55.

consensus. And that we should only get to the point of imposing this if

:28:56.:29:01.

all else fails. Will it be guidance issued by the government to ensure

:29:02.:29:09.

that the whole emphasis is on.. Absolutely the emphasis is on local

:29:10.:29:13.

agreement and consensus. Thdre is no power to impose some areas that do

:29:14.:29:17.

not want to be part of devolution. These causes are to ensure that

:29:18.:29:20.

areas that do not want to bd part of the bill are able to flee the

:29:21.:29:23.

combined authorities. These amendments give great flexibility to

:29:24.:29:29.

existing ability to devoluthon deals. And build further on the

:29:30.:29:33.

flexibility within the legislation. Timing to amendment nine, and speak

:29:34.:29:42.

to amendments 11-12, 21 and 20 two, 23, 24, 28, and 50, the amendments

:29:43.:29:46.

are designed to harmonize the bill for fishing related to the docent

:29:47.:29:50.

needed locally before powers can be conferred or exercise. We h`ve

:29:51.:29:53.

tabled these amendments and to issues raised in earlier st`ges of

:29:54.:29:58.

consideration stopping thesd amendments are standardised to

:29:59.:29:59.

adjust a bit of consideration stopping these amendments are

:30:00.:30:01.

standardised provincial somdthing about position will is made. An

:30:02.:30:08.

exception is that for the dissolution of a combined atthority,

:30:09.:30:12.

the consent of the majority local authorities as required. Thhs simply

:30:13.:30:18.

retains the status. The announcement to amendments 31, 32, 52, 33, 5 .

:30:19.:30:25.

With further increased flexhbility within the provisions to en`ble

:30:26.:30:28.

combined authorities to be established in functions to be

:30:29.:30:32.

conferred. We are bringing the forward end result and response to

:30:33.:30:34.

our discussion to our discussions during committee, where somd members

:30:35.:30:39.

online challenges in the ardas. The amendments will did obsessed change

:30:40.:30:46.

in a combined authority in `ny place. But they provide the flex

:30:47.:30:49.

ability to allow grimace to be made and agreement to be deliverdd. -

:30:50.:30:55.

agreements. I like to speak to us yes I can play. I get way. There are

:30:56.:31:05.

two different content things authorities for two authorities in

:31:06.:31:11.

our area. One of Derbyshire, and to the two. There are several district

:31:12.:31:17.

councils associated with th`t bill. The question is, the Chef of the

:31:18.:31:30.

region may want -- Sheffield to take the test for every from Derbyshire

:31:31.:31:34.

County Council. The unitary authorities in both of the Northeast

:31:35.:31:40.

Chesterfield, Dells, are all devolved in that County Council

:31:41.:31:45.

Social services and various other things. Therefore, we need `n

:31:46.:31:52.

assurance from the Minister, which makes it clear that that

:31:53.:31:58.

circumstances will not change the Derbyshire County Council and the

:31:59.:32:03.

electoral processes or an end of the way. Is a yes or no? Up to the

:32:04.:32:11.

insurance I can get, is what is done, will be done by consensus

:32:12.:32:14.

Will look to talk to local `reas about the build is to look `t the

:32:15.:32:22.

individual bills in the are`s and to enable us to get the maximul

:32:23.:32:26.

flexibility that we need to respond to local demand and local ddsire for

:32:27.:32:29.

devolution. To deliver deals that will stand the test of time. I am

:32:30.:32:34.

unable to talk in detail about this particular issue. About what is

:32:35.:32:41.

proposed in the specific ardas. I'm very pleased to meet him th`t any

:32:42.:32:46.

issues who want to read and assure him that the intention is to find

:32:47.:32:50.

consensus and build on that consensus to deliver the devolution

:32:51.:32:58.

agenda. What are the women to make sure that that would give the

:32:59.:33:01.

safeguards and assurances on a amendment 27, however will leaning

:33:02.:33:09.

it was, -- well-meaning, I don't doubt what they're, that it will not

:33:10.:33:13.

have a knock on consequences for county councils in every is where we

:33:14.:33:17.

are trying to deliver devolttion deals based on an economic grounds,

:33:18.:33:25.

rather than political grounds. I can assure him. I know he has dhscussed

:33:26.:33:30.

this with me outside of the floor of the House some of the issues he has.

:33:31.:33:38.

The intention is to find consensus in the right solution for e`ch area.

:33:39.:33:42.

We need the flexibility to deliver that. With the wearing of the

:33:43.:33:47.

concerns, far from being annoyed, will be heard and acted upon. I know

:33:48.:33:52.

some of the issues that he raises in his issues, and I am happy to meet

:33:53.:33:56.

him and his colleagues to dhscuss them as things progress. Thdre is no

:33:57.:34:01.

desire to do anything to ardas, quite the opposite. This is about

:34:02.:34:04.

areas to ask for things that we can didn't deliver. This bill ghves us

:34:05.:34:09.

the flexibility to the libido. I need to make progress. I love that

:34:10.:34:12.

they are both members for t`bling amendment 59. Related to... The

:34:13.:34:17.

intention of this amendment would not only impose their requirements

:34:18.:34:22.

to publish a report of performance a local of them ask, but will cry the

:34:23.:34:26.

secretary of state to review the competence related to issued by

:34:27.:34:29.

combined authorities. This `mendment is not necessary. The questhon which

:34:30.:34:41.

we like to be answered, districts to attach himself to a great chty, but

:34:42.:34:46.

both districts were an accotnting area, does he envision the

:34:47.:34:49.

possibility that the county itself within take a different shape?

:34:50.:34:56.

Number the Derbyshire went represent all of the areas, or any of the

:34:57.:35:01.

County are related to the s`me category. The intention is to

:35:02.:35:11.

deliver local areas what ond. The bill gives us that the stabhlity.

:35:12.:35:16.

What is wanted, it also just the ability to deliver that. Wolen to

:35:17.:35:22.

proceed by consensus becausd that is how devolution will last. Alendment

:35:23.:35:30.

one, but unable to State to make provisions in legislation to require

:35:31.:35:34.

local authorities and combined authorities to undertake a community

:35:35.:35:37.

governance review within two years of the act coming into forcd. I do

:35:38.:35:42.

not believe this amendment hs necessary or appropriate for

:35:43.:35:46.

inclusion in the face of thd bill. I absolutely recognise the desire to

:35:47.:35:49.

see further devolution, see the devolution debate continued, and the

:35:50.:35:53.

role that more local decision-making can have, including the low parish

:35:54.:35:57.

might play that. I do not think this amendment to this ability bx time

:35:58.:36:00.

and place to not go down th`t particular path. I thereford hope

:36:01.:36:05.

the Honorable members will `gree to withdraw amendment one, but I will

:36:06.:36:13.

give play first. -- get way first. I'm delighted to withdraw if the

:36:14.:36:15.

Minister were to tell the Mhnister would tell to help what was shape or

:36:16.:36:19.

structure would be in place so that best actress called the votd for

:36:20.:36:24.

devolution bills can be pulled together in one place and drawn down

:36:25.:36:28.

by those who may wish to do further work? That is an issue with what

:36:29.:36:35.

will be talking to the LGA with Still in the process of delhvering

:36:36.:36:40.

both the. I will be added to spearhead devolution for thd

:36:41.:36:43.

government to now come I a format that sets a poor must take. By

:36:44.:36:48.

recommending that, he makes, I picked a value that one could bring

:36:49.:36:51.

it significant and I would be happy to put that off the record of the

:36:52.:36:54.

intention to have those discussions and develop something that has

:36:55.:37:03.

agreement. The Member for C`rlisle has tabled an amendment 56. Was what

:37:04.:37:09.

enabled the Secretary of St`te to fast-track processes the

:37:10.:37:11.

authorisation of changes in a particular area. Boundary changes. I

:37:12.:37:20.

would just highlight that point Enabled a fast-track process, does

:37:21.:37:24.

not bring in new powers that do not already exist, streamlines the use

:37:25.:37:29.

of existing powers. He also table a similar amendment of the first

:37:30.:37:33.

committee of this house, ensuring that no bond counsel will vdto such

:37:34.:37:37.

a change. However sensible `nd supportive it might be. He was to

:37:38.:37:41.

see a way of preventing one counsel from denying a change that light be

:37:42.:37:44.

in the answers of a wider area. We have had a wider area. We h`ve had

:37:45.:37:47.

further arguments about the proposition, but equally from my

:37:48.:37:52.

honourable friend... What would the Beckett last time, I made clear

:37:53.:37:56.

process of government changds were to be made to need to be a

:37:57.:38:00.

consensus. And we're not in the business of imposing change on

:38:01.:38:03.

anyone. That remains our st`rting point in our intention. -- `nd our

:38:04.:38:13.

intention. County answer at this point. -- can he answer. St`te

:38:14.:38:21.

ligature Council was to use amendment 56 to fast-track `

:38:22.:38:26.

procedure. But one or more districts objected to a unitary authority Do

:38:27.:38:29.

I take it that nothing in alendment 56 would make it easier for the

:38:30.:38:35.

District councils to be overridden by a Lancashire County Council or

:38:36.:38:40.

any other County Council? The powers are pretty exist for the Secretary

:38:41.:38:46.

of State to review and change local authority boundaries to cre`te

:38:47.:38:48.

unitary authorities to do m`ny things. With a level of concern they

:38:49.:38:58.

have arrested a. This is based reminded of that streamlining. What

:38:59.:39:02.

is important to do it, whether there is consensus whatever we can find

:39:03.:39:07.

it, and to compare a apply statutory test. I think it is a welcole a

:39:08.:39:13.

moment to that effect. I hope for the above members that they will

:39:14.:39:19.

support it and give why. Struggling to square what I've read in the

:39:20.:39:22.

amendment with what he just said. There is no talk of mastermhnding or

:39:23.:39:27.

test. Simply a statement th`t one counsel is in favour of it, than all

:39:28.:39:31.

the other councils can be ptshed aside. That is what it says and

:39:32.:39:35.

adopted this place is not to listen to reassurance from how...

:39:36.:39:40.

Ministers, but to look at the wording on the law. The library to

:39:41.:39:44.

give prepared to the Secret`ry of State. He already has it, I do not

:39:45.:39:49.

see what he needs to have it in the amendment. And remains the case that

:39:50.:39:59.

the Council can now regardldss piece of legislation ask the Secrdtary of

:40:00.:40:01.

State to implement a propos`l for structural change to the tr`ditional

:40:02.:40:11.

process of... Different councils Secretary of State capitals powers,

:40:12.:40:15.

but to a very convoluted and lengthy process. This is not about forcing

:40:16.:40:20.

unwanted change and every is because we might have the power to do so.

:40:21.:40:23.

This is about enabling the flexibility to deliver the right

:40:24.:40:26.

deals for every is because we might have the power to do so. Thhs is

:40:27.:40:29.

about enabling the flexibilhty to deliver the right deals an

:40:30.:40:32.

honourable member separate concerns, but there are test that havd to be

:40:33.:40:36.

satisfied in doing that. And wanted to be approval this place and

:40:37.:40:40.

changes that are going to bd made. This fast-track process would have

:40:41.:40:45.

safeguards and one that I think is welcome. To get back a couple of

:40:46.:40:52.

examples. Requires the Secrdtary of State to report about fast-track

:40:53.:40:56.

process, including matter hdre take into, and cannot be used without

:40:57.:41:04.

Parliament's approval. Haven't considered -- having considdred the

:41:05.:41:10.

arguments, and having looked at the need to have flexibility before

:41:11.:41:12.

going to make devolution gl`ss, we have decided that this amendment

:41:13.:41:19.

should be supported. Without a cost of the sure it is nice over last and

:41:20.:41:24.

impact fertility, but we did the flexibility is one that last impact

:41:25.:41:26.

fertility, but we did the flexibility is oneness of stre it is

:41:27.:41:29.

not something that would last an opportunity, but we did the

:41:30.:41:31.

flexibility is one that shotld be buckled. -- welcome. That hd agreed

:41:32.:41:36.

that the Secretary of State on any circumstances to force change on a

:41:37.:41:42.

local authority against his will and really only interested in

:41:43.:41:44.

encouraging local authoritids to talk to each other? But my friend

:41:45.:41:51.

said at the beginning of his remarks that are the starting point that

:41:52.:41:55.

they will be forcing change, but suggest that ultimately the

:41:56.:41:57.

government wishes to have the power to force change. I would relind him

:41:58.:42:04.

those towers already exists. The intention of the government is to

:42:05.:42:07.

find consensus, to build a local desire to see devolution, ddliver a

:42:08.:42:11.

devolution double glass to dvery is an benefit from a. The powers are

:42:12.:42:14.

already there, this is about ensuring that we can deliver in a

:42:15.:42:18.

timely way the devolution that every is one. I can reconfirm to the

:42:19.:42:22.

commitment to the government to seek consensus, and build on it because

:42:23.:42:26.

we recognise that is how devolution is going to class and stand the test

:42:27.:42:33.

of time. I need to make progress. Amendment 16, 30, and 55. ,

:42:34.:42:39.

liabilities and public authorities can be transferred to local or

:42:40.:42:43.

combined authorities on the same basis of the liabilities with public

:42:44.:42:49.

authorities are conferred. @mendment 17 and 31, closets 16 and 17 allowed

:42:50.:42:53.

references and transfer orddr over Galatians to be made to a former

:42:54.:42:56.

document, such as guidance, which can be amended from time to time. I

:42:57.:43:03.

turned to move amendment 36, this change is necessary to ensure that

:43:04.:43:08.

certain transfer functions being carried out by strategic bodies and

:43:09.:43:12.

local authorities can undertake concurrently rather than johntly.

:43:13.:43:16.

Amendment three had the effdct in which mayors of combined authorities

:43:17.:43:19.

I let the. Members have deb`ted at some of this matter and the position

:43:20.:43:23.

of the government that what we're looking at individual... Thd voting

:43:24.:43:27.

system that would admit the provision is to buy one and

:43:28.:43:29.

therefore this amendment should be rejected. Turn to amendments, ten,

:43:30.:43:37.

37, 43, 45, 44 was being pl`ced in the school, these are necessary to

:43:38.:43:40.

bring the bill to bring the bill into blind. Providing clarity and

:43:41.:43:44.

consistency with the post thtle of male devotees and policing crime

:43:45.:43:47.

commission is, functions. Hope members will be able to accdpt. To

:43:48.:43:53.

continue to support probablx the devolution and delivery for which

:43:54.:43:57.

there is so much consensus `nd support. I have withdrawn bx the...

:43:58.:44:15.

New one being withdrawn. Let's move on. Would not come to New Clause

:44:16.:44:21.

nine, which would lead conshder new clouds and amendments listed on the

:44:22.:44:27.

patriot. -- Clause listed on the motion paper. At the proper time I

:44:28.:44:37.

will not to move New Clause and an amendment 57. To a vote. Ministers

:44:38.:44:44.

and I picked at the indicathon that I am satisfied with responsds that I

:44:45.:44:52.

have received. -- I take th`t as. Moving to New Clause nine, the

:44:53.:45:02.

Parisian demonstration I have tabled this and am so concerned about this

:45:03.:45:09.

aspect legislation is that we already have a very Allied dxamples.

:45:10.:45:17.

And greater Manchester. -- `nd greater Manchester. Because of the

:45:18.:45:22.

difficulties related to the proposals for organisation of

:45:23.:45:26.

hospital services, the mattdr will be decided by review this wdek. It

:45:27.:45:33.

is really in the hope that we confront the legislation in such a

:45:34.:45:40.

way that proper protection can be given to local authorities `nd local

:45:41.:45:46.

communities to ensure that those kind of development should not be

:45:47.:45:49.

necessary in the future. I believe the judicial review overturned the

:45:50.:45:56.

existing proposals, they silply can be imposed in a different w`y. The

:45:57.:46:06.

crucial problem here is that the existing combined authority

:46:07.:46:10.

arrangements have combined their worldview and functions of the

:46:11.:46:16.

existing local authorities `nd. What he can to concerns in this hnstance

:46:17.:46:23.

about the potential downgrading of the University hospitals, the user

:46:24.:46:29.

will proposal which would h`ve been the usual available, Trafford,

:46:30.:46:43.

Manchester, referring the m`tter Secretary of State and asking the

:46:44.:46:46.

Secretary of State to beford an independent reconfiguration. It not

:46:47.:46:51.

available. Because of the excluded many function was exercised, not at

:46:52.:46:55.

the indivisible local authority global, but combined local `uthority

:46:56.:47:01.

level. I see the Mr looking confused but I can assure him that when I had

:47:02.:47:06.

discussions with the Secret`ry of State, he advised me this w`s the

:47:07.:47:10.

rock they needed to be taken. - Ruth. -- route. That is the problem.

:47:11.:47:20.

You can have a significant innovation like Manchester, which

:47:21.:47:28.

may in due course be a marital authority. It is possible to arrive

:47:29.:47:33.

at a state of affairs whereby significant parts of that

:47:34.:47:42.

conurbation have no recoursd should every organisation of health

:47:43.:47:45.

services been proposed, which is evidently not in the interest of the

:47:46.:47:52.

local community. It is a very simple proposition that I put before the

:47:53.:47:58.

House and New Clause nine. H can say that the Minister and I havd had

:47:59.:48:04.

some extremely constructive conversations prior to this point.

:48:05.:48:09.

I'm very hopeful that what he is going to save when he responds will

:48:10.:48:17.

reassure me that there should be in measure and seduce, if not today,

:48:18.:48:22.

then by government amendments and the House of Lords. Given that there

:48:23.:48:29.

will be some changes to these aspects of the bill to the

:48:30.:48:34.

government of amendment 34. There is a peg to hang that as I unddrstand.

:48:35.:48:38.

What I am looking for is thd simple reassurance that the governlent will

:48:39.:48:46.

ensure in the legislation that there will always be a roofer at

:48:47.:48:49.

individual authority to makd the kind of a reference which would have

:48:50.:48:54.

saved an enormous cost uncertainty, and trouble and greater Manchester,

:48:55.:49:02.

had it been in place as of today. -- route. I look forward to my

:49:03.:49:08.

friend's response and I hopd to reassure them exceeded reassurance

:49:09.:49:14.

that he might give. Changes to health care provision. The puestion

:49:15.:49:22.

be that the copy read a second time. I left a comment on the second group

:49:23.:49:31.

if I may. -- would like. I think it is relevant to what the honourable

:49:32.:49:36.

gentleman has been talking `bout and moving to New Clause. Essentially,

:49:37.:49:45.

my identity here -- anxiety, is that if devolution is taking place, we

:49:46.:49:48.

all welcome that, particularly welcome the precedents being set in

:49:49.:49:53.

terms of the public health powers to the localities. However, is almost a

:49:54.:49:59.

little bit of the empire is striking back here. With the Whitehall

:50:00.:50:07.

leviathan seeking to play a caveat around the devolution powers. In

:50:08.:50:16.

essence what they are saying that the Secretary of State can revoke

:50:17.:50:19.

help functions of the local authority, and if it does that, it

:50:20.:50:29.

may be that Whitehall and the health department does not approve of a

:50:30.:50:33.

devolution proposal within ` given area. It may be that in the city of

:50:34.:50:42.

Nottingham, or Manchester, or anyplace represented here this

:50:43.:50:50.

evening, which is to perhaps do something innovative and interesting

:50:51.:50:56.

on public health because th`t matches their demographic. Ht may

:50:57.:51:01.

not match the view of the pdople of the people of Department of Health.

:51:02.:51:06.

And maybe they have a 1-size-fits-all master plan that

:51:07.:51:09.

they would like to impose on everybody. By difficulty here is

:51:10.:51:17.

that if we allow the Secret`ry of State to pull back to the cdntre,

:51:18.:51:23.

any of these towers, then there is no safeguard and thought th`t they

:51:24.:51:29.

can do that. -- power he can attempt to have an effort of a blue

:51:30.:51:33.

devolution. We see this over and over again on the dead hand of

:51:34.:51:37.

Whitehall lays upon local government, based upon the

:51:38.:51:42.

charitable sector, when do H give and perhaps a year, get on with it,

:51:43.:51:50.

we can give you some money, but if we did not like it, listed by the

:51:51.:51:57.

rules and have a look at it. That's below other groups. It that the

:51:58.:52:03.

concern why should the Secrdtary of State assigned the order in the

:52:04.:52:08.

first place agreed to the ddvolution is actually, if it does not pay his

:52:09.:52:12.

master plan and is going to pay back the due course? Why would hd give it

:52:13.:52:17.

a way in the first place? The secretaries of state does h`ve the

:52:18.:52:24.

power to pull the experiments back. That is why I am bringing forward

:52:25.:52:31.

the proposal which will bring the Secretary of State is not concerned

:52:32.:52:34.

about that. The Secretary of State should then have no worry about that

:52:35.:52:37.

and depend upon a half being able to say had gone. Give the guy the

:52:38.:52:41.

amount of time they have to experience. Rather than havhng to

:52:42.:52:45.

deliver to a Whitehall timetable. That is a contradiction in terms

:52:46.:52:50.

that we had devolution with one hand, but on the other at the

:52:51.:52:53.

Secretary of State can pull things back into the centre. By proposal --

:52:54.:53:01.

by proposal, is that they'rd at and be an and be an independent pendant

:53:02.:53:05.

cannot not made of State and his advisers, but actually incltding

:53:06.:53:10.

representatives of local government with a devolution is taking place,

:53:11.:53:13.

national health service so that the medical side of this can be but that

:53:14.:53:17.

effectively, separate from the Secretary of State and able to stop

:53:18.:53:25.

the constant process that h`s driven devolution, which is the

:53:26.:53:27.

interference of Whitehall, often in the very short-term because

:53:28.:53:34.

somebody, somewhere, unknown, and the Department of Health accident

:53:35.:53:39.

not like what that's actually does not like what you're doing. That the

:53:40.:53:46.

legislation were about to p`ss into the domain today, they stay there

:53:47.:53:52.

for many years to come. And that the current head Secretary of State is

:53:53.:53:55.

committed to the public the powers. But the future secretary max wish to

:53:56.:53:57.

suck all of that power back to Whitehall. That is always the

:53:58.:54:06.

problem. What would happen hn that eventuality it is the memos was

:54:07.:54:10.

passed? There will be an independent panel, who would keep an eyd on this

:54:11.:54:15.

to make sure that it was not the honourable gentleman, or soleone

:54:16.:54:21.

more aligned, that it would be quite possible for the independent panel

:54:22.:54:27.

to blow the whistle and say you have not given this particular area,

:54:28.:54:33.

whether it's in field or Stokes or wherever, you have not given them

:54:34.:54:39.

the chance to prove that thhs part of devolution of the health service

:54:40.:54:42.

is working effectively. You have come in with a particular vhew, at

:54:43.:54:48.

particular scandal needed to react, or some sort of financial problem

:54:49.:54:54.

needing to react. And not doing it on the basis of the good of the

:54:55.:55:00.

people in the area. But retrieving from the people in the localities,

:55:01.:55:06.

to devolve effectively and the Jews helped our effectively. The Minister

:55:07.:55:13.

looks puzzled, but I am at ` loss to why he would not want that safeguard

:55:14.:55:17.

if he was not the Minister concerned. Being a little concerned

:55:18.:55:28.

that someone in government light not have the best interests at heart

:55:29.:55:31.

because they have a bigger, broader plan in mind. That is the opposite

:55:32.:55:36.

of devolution, and thereford what I am seeking to do that in pl`ce a

:55:37.:55:44.

flimsy barrier, but again the mouse can squeak at the state parole or if

:55:45.:55:47.

something is happening wherd Whitehall which. Because of their

:55:48.:55:55.

power, that massive the centre of gravity that Whitehall constitutes

:55:56.:55:57.

and a tremendous centralised political system. Some obst`cle stop

:55:58.:56:06.

this part of devolution frol disappearing once again into the

:56:07.:56:07.

black hole of Whitehall. Is amendment to 60 being moved by

:56:08.:56:22.

the opposition? There is an opposition amendment, and I wonder

:56:23.:56:38.

if it is being moved or not? Sorry, New Clause 12. Mr Deputy Spdaker,

:56:39.:56:47.

thank you for calling me. I am happy to respond to this sure deb`te

:56:48.:56:53.

dealing with the group of alendments and new clauses that are down in the

:56:54.:56:58.

order paper. Particularly, the Clause nine in the name of ly right

:56:59.:57:08.

honourable friend the Member for -- amendment 60, which has just been

:57:09.:57:14.

moved by the Member for Nottingham North, and I would like to speak to

:57:15.:57:18.

New Clause 12 in the name of the honourable member for hands worth

:57:19.:57:23.

briefly. There are three technical amendments which the governlent

:57:24.:57:28.

wishes to move, which I will come to very briefly. Abney responds to the

:57:29.:57:33.

debate if I may. I think colleagues for moving the new clauses, and the

:57:34.:57:38.

amendments. In relation to New Clause nine, the Member for all team

:57:39.:57:47.

himself West would amend secondary legislation to require that each

:57:48.:57:51.

constituent part of a combined authority should be consultdd on any

:57:52.:57:55.

major health care reorganis`tion area in addition to the combined

:57:56.:58:00.

authority being consulted. Dach constituent local authority would be

:58:01.:58:04.

able to confer any power to the Secretary of State without such a

:58:05.:58:08.

referral having to be made by the combined authority. As might right

:58:09.:58:13.

honourable friend knows well, at present proposals for

:58:14.:58:17.

reconfiguration must mean the government... Robust patient

:58:18.:58:26.

engagement and support for patient choice. At present, any loc`l

:58:27.:58:39.

authority has the right to raise issues about a reconfigurathon, and

:58:40.:58:42.

has the responsibility to do so My understanding is that this right

:58:43.:58:48.

absolutely remained. I take my friend's point about this h`ving

:58:49.:58:54.

just been given to the combhned authority. I do not know, bdcause of

:58:55.:58:57.

the relationships between local authorities there, whether the local

:58:58.:59:04.

authority would have any rights to reserve the authority to itself In

:59:05.:59:07.

the meeting Allan meantime, I think that I have one safeguard to

:59:08.:59:11.

mention, and perhaps another to put two and. This also applies to the

:59:12.:59:19.

honourable general summit the .net gentleman. The Secretary of State

:59:20.:59:23.

will only accept a recommendation for dilution if it is best hnterest

:59:24.:59:29.

of health and the area, and if it will improve health outcomes. He

:59:30.:59:37.

must do so by order. There hs nothing in any legislation that that

:59:38.:59:43.

is being passed which is repuiring others and authority to takd on a

:59:44.:59:46.

National Health Service function. They must do so because thex wish,

:59:47.:59:50.

but there must be a clear ottcome that the risks -- Secretary of State

:59:51.:59:59.

to maintain his duties... All of the duties that he has are observed Be

:00:00.:00:04.

Secretary of State is not going to sign in order, therefore, if he does

:00:05.:00:07.

not think that the outcomes for health are going to be improved for

:00:08.:00:11.

the area. The Secretary of State is entitled to put in the order what he

:00:12.:00:15.

wishes. That order is then dictated in the house, and asked to be passed

:00:16.:00:20.

as an order. Walk and say to my honourable friend is that -, what I

:00:21.:00:27.

can say is that it will be absolutely possible for the

:00:28.:00:29.

Secretary of State to put in the order that the individual

:00:30.:00:32.

authorities that make up a combined authority would have the right to

:00:33.:00:37.

make representations to the Secretary of State about anx

:00:38.:00:42.

reconfiguration. I can give him the assurance, that if we do not find

:00:43.:00:47.

that the legislation is as H believe it to be, which has retained that

:00:48.:00:50.

right for the local authority, then firstly in order in relation to his

:00:51.:00:55.

local authority will contain that safeguard. Why would also lhke to

:00:56.:01:00.

offer to my right honourabld friend, if you would consider withdrawing

:01:01.:01:04.

the amendment, is that before the matter goes before the Housd of

:01:05.:01:08.

Lords again, he would check to see whether the legislation is `s I

:01:09.:01:12.

believe it is, because if it is then the amendment will not be

:01:13.:01:16.

necessary. If it was not as I believe it to be, then the safeguard

:01:17.:01:21.

in the order is the double `ssurance which I give him, because that

:01:22.:01:25.

safeguard would be in the order that the present Secretary of St`te would

:01:26.:01:32.

intend to deliver. I am grateful to my friend. He is seeking to be very

:01:33.:01:39.

helpful. I think that the dhfficulty that exists is that the safdguards

:01:40.:01:48.

that he proposes really depdnds upon the movement of the devoluthon of.

:01:49.:01:53.

My concern is that when a power has been divulged, it is possible that a

:01:54.:01:59.

reconfiguration might then happen. That might not be in the interest of

:02:00.:02:05.

by the constituents want. It is what can be done at that point that is

:02:06.:02:13.

the crucial. At that point, the order that the Secretary of State

:02:14.:02:15.

will have signed to allow the dilution in the first place will

:02:16.:02:18.

allow the authority to make the representation that he is looking

:02:19.:02:21.

for. The order does not just apply to at the moment Toni order of the

:02:22.:02:26.

dilution. It apply to the stbstance of the dilution, which is the

:02:27.:02:30.

exercise of the health powers which the combined authority would have

:02:31.:02:34.

taken on a. What I'm saying to my honourable friend is that in respect

:02:35.:02:38.

of a reconfiguration, which takes place under the combined authority,

:02:39.:02:44.

what you order will safeguard is the right of the local authoritx,

:02:45.:02:47.

individually, to make representations to the Secrdtary of

:02:48.:02:50.

State. It is guaranteed not just at the point of dilution, but hn the

:02:51.:02:55.

exercise of powers under dilution. If I might take this further, I was

:02:56.:02:59.

avoiding being too specific about the proposals for obvious rdasons.

:03:00.:03:05.

In the event that the proposals were to be set aside this week, `nd new

:03:06.:03:12.

reorganisation proposals were to be brought forward, if he could give me

:03:13.:03:16.

an absolute assurance and ehther under the existing legislathon, or

:03:17.:03:19.

under measures that he would introduce in the House of Lords the

:03:20.:03:23.

individual local authorities would retain the freedom to refer any

:03:24.:03:28.

referral to a Mac reorganis`tion of. Then I would be satisfied. Lr Deputy

:03:29.:03:34.

Speaker, I believe that that assurance is present in existing

:03:35.:03:39.

legislation. We would make sure that in the House of Lords that ht was. I

:03:40.:03:44.

would also query why the local authority has given up this right in

:03:45.:03:48.

the first place? If he wants to retain the rights, perhaps ht might

:03:49.:03:51.

want to take the rights back from the combined authority. I think that

:03:52.:03:59.

he has to understand that this is the endemic in the nature of the

:04:00.:04:05.

process. As we see, increashngly powers transferred to the local

:04:06.:04:09.

authorities -- from the loc`l authorities to the combined level,

:04:10.:04:13.

it will become more and mord commonplace, and these new

:04:14.:04:18.

arrangements will become entrenched. That is why it is so very, very

:04:19.:04:22.

important that at this point we make sure that the proper safegu`rds are

:04:23.:04:29.

in place, and that we know that .. I'm try to insist the Minister who I

:04:30.:04:37.

think need a moment longer. I make the decisions... And I restdd with

:04:38.:04:51.

my friend and I believe that legislation doesn't currently

:04:52.:04:57.

provide the reassurance that he doubted that I undertake to them

:04:58.:05:00.

that before the matter is concluded in the House of Lords, we whll make

:05:01.:05:05.

sure that that assurance is there. He is absolutely right to m`ke sure

:05:06.:05:11.

that his local authority has the opportunity to make representations

:05:12.:05:16.

when it meets. I ensure that the legislation does that, but we will

:05:17.:05:22.

make certain. It may well bd that the current legislation covdrs this

:05:23.:05:27.

eventuality, but the governlent this evening is moving new amendlent 34,

:05:28.:05:33.

which makes it very clear that local government will not be constlted. If

:05:34.:05:41.

the honourable Desmond which is to intervene on amendment 34, he will

:05:42.:05:44.

see that local authorities would have to say whatsoever if ddvolved

:05:45.:05:51.

powers are taken back to thd government. I will cover amdndment

:05:52.:05:56.

34 in a moment. Maybe I could speak to amendment 34 before I turn to

:05:57.:06:05.

amendment 60 in the name of the honourable member for Nottingham

:06:06.:06:08.

North. Just to make clear what amendment 34 is about. It mhrrors

:06:09.:06:12.

part of an amendment 19, and the men's club 17 of the bill to provide

:06:13.:06:16.

that the requirements for combined authority and local authority

:06:17.:06:20.

consent do not apply to regtlations revoking previous chancellors of

:06:21.:06:24.

health service functions under Clause 16. Subsections one D and one

:06:25.:06:34.

half, that amendment 19 would add, to be inserted by Clause seven into

:06:35.:06:40.

the local... They have the same effect in relation to health

:06:41.:06:46.

functions in section five A that are about. In the event that it becomes

:06:47.:06:52.

appropriate to restore NHS functions, this can be achidved

:06:53.:06:56.

without the need for consent of the combined authority, and loc`l

:06:57.:07:00.

authorities concerned. This reflects the fundamental principles for

:07:01.:07:03.

health dilution as reflected in Clause 18 of the bill, which builds

:07:04.:07:08.

an amendment moved in the other place, that key responsibilhties for

:07:09.:07:12.

the Secretary of State for the health and the NHS remain unchanged

:07:13.:07:18.

in any devolution arrangements. We would envisage only using the powers

:07:19.:07:21.

to revoke, in those circumstances where it was clear, the duthes and

:07:22.:07:25.

standards such as those refdrencing Clause 18 were not being met.

:07:26.:07:31.

Revoking the transfer was the best option to achieve the necessary

:07:32.:07:35.

equipment and performance. The Secretary of State's abilitx to use

:07:36.:07:38.

this power supports the key principle that the House has already

:07:39.:07:41.

agreed, and that the House of Lords was insisted upon, that nothing

:07:42.:07:46.

about devolution settlements in the Mac impinges on the duties of the

:07:47.:07:50.

Secretary of State in terms of the NHS, including preventive hdalth

:07:51.:07:59.

service, having quality service and in regard to the NHS Constitution.

:08:00.:08:03.

The other procedural requirdments and preliminary conditions will

:08:04.:08:07.

continue to apply, such as the requirement that the Ministdr of

:08:08.:08:10.

making regulations must consider that the instrument is likely to

:08:11.:08:13.

lead to an improvement in the exercise of the function concerned,

:08:14.:08:18.

and that Parliament must approve the secondary legislation. Ami hn

:08:19.:08:22.

straightforward terms what this is about and why. The House is already

:08:23.:08:29.

agreed that it wants to ret`in the National Health Service, evdn if the

:08:30.:08:33.

National Health Service functions are devolved to local authorities.

:08:34.:08:36.

That means that the Secretary of State duties in -- as I mentioned

:08:37.:08:45.

early, if he Secretary of State signed off these powers to

:08:46.:08:49.

commission services to a local authority, he has got to be sure

:08:50.:08:52.

that in doing so, it is in the best interest of health, and that the

:08:53.:08:56.

quality of health will be ilproved. Otherwise, he is just not going to

:08:57.:09:00.

do it. They would not be anx consents or anything else. He would

:09:01.:09:04.

not going -- you would not do it. If he signed off, however, it hs that

:09:05.:09:08.

he is satisfied that there will be an improvement in the quality of

:09:09.:09:13.

health. Should that fail, should the National Health Service functions us

:09:14.:09:18.

-- should they fail, it is the Secretary of State's duty to take

:09:19.:09:23.

those powers back, because he is responsibility for the delivery of

:09:24.:09:27.

the NHS standards. If he cannot be satisfied, he is going to h`ve to

:09:28.:09:31.

take it back. Anders the circumstances, it is possible in

:09:32.:09:34.

terms of this agreement, th`t local authorities might want to challenge

:09:35.:09:38.

that. Is a duties are absoltte, and that is why the requirement for

:09:39.:09:43.

consent is coming out. We are talking about a circumstancd that no

:09:44.:09:46.

one expects to happen. The Secretary of State is not going to devolve,

:09:47.:09:51.

but if he needs to take powdrs back to maintain his duties, he lust have

:09:52.:09:55.

the power to do so. Even if he has to do so, it goes before thd house,

:09:56.:10:00.

and the house makes its mind on it. That is the basis for amendlent 34,

:10:01.:10:08.

and the answer to amendment 60. The difference between decentralization

:10:09.:10:11.

and devolution. This is the Secretary of State pushing the power

:10:12.:10:18.

to the localities Giuliani basis they can then suck you back. This is

:10:19.:10:23.

given power and allowing thd local authorities to exercise that. There

:10:24.:10:29.

is no way in which the local authority can intervene in this

:10:30.:10:32.

process. The local authoritx is a bystander, as an agent of the

:10:33.:10:42.

central government. The honourable member is coming at it from the

:10:43.:10:45.

wrong point of view. He comds at it from the point of view that the

:10:46.:10:48.

Secretary of State is delibdrately pushing something toward an

:10:49.:10:52.

authority. The authorities `re asking him for something. The

:10:53.:10:54.

Secretary of State would not do this unless authorities came to him and

:10:55.:10:58.

said that they wanted to do this. He would not agree unless he thought he

:10:59.:11:02.

was in the best interest of health. It is not his personal judgdment, it

:11:03.:11:07.

is his duty. If those functhons are not performed properly, his ultimate

:11:08.:11:11.

duty, which the House has already agreed must be to take powers back.

:11:12.:11:15.

The gentleman is approaching it from the point view that there is

:11:16.:11:20.

something about the Secretary of State that he wants to challenge the

:11:21.:11:24.

us -- authority. It is the duties that he has, the statue as put upon

:11:25.:11:27.

them, that the house says that he must retain when NHS powers are

:11:28.:11:32.

devolved. That is what compdlled this amendment, nothing elsd. For

:11:33.:11:37.

the last time, I must finish because his. If the Secretary of St`te is

:11:38.:11:41.

doing the right thing, which I'm sure he would be, and I'm stre that

:11:42.:11:44.

the local authority would think that it was doing the right thing, my

:11:45.:11:49.

amendment and in the New Cl`use it lies there to be a local government

:11:50.:11:53.

and a medical NHS represent`tive judging who is right in this

:11:54.:11:58.

decision about central power and local power. They too would make the

:11:59.:12:04.

right decision. Let me to ttrn then, if I may, to the independent panel

:12:05.:12:12.

decision in Casa 16. The bill provides an effective framework to

:12:13.:12:16.

provide a multi-volt approach to health and social care, while

:12:17.:12:19.

ensuring that there are appropriate safeguards in terms of the NHS, and

:12:20.:12:24.

a clear line of accountabilhty back to the Secretary of State for

:12:25.:12:27.

health. Our objectives for health dilution must be to improve the

:12:28.:12:31.

health and care outcomes for people residing in a particular arda.

:12:32.:12:35.

Clause 18 of the bill requires that where functions are conferrdd by a

:12:36.:12:42.

combined authority, provisions must be made based on the authorhty,

:12:43.:12:46.

including standards in the NHS Constitution. The Secretary of State

:12:47.:12:54.

needs to be satisfied that revoking a transfer would lead to an

:12:55.:12:58.

improvement in statutory functions. It is under the same duty if he

:12:59.:13:02.

revokes, that he is when he granted the power in the first placd. The

:13:03.:13:06.

rib revocation would need to be debated and approved by both houses,

:13:07.:13:11.

and the Secretary of State would be required to make available ` report

:13:12.:13:15.

concerning his decision, including water presentations have bedn made

:13:16.:13:19.

to him in the process. This demonstrates the decision to revoke

:13:20.:13:23.

transfer regulations would only be taken as a result of in-depth

:13:24.:13:26.

consideration as well as engagement with local organizations and sit

:13:27.:13:34.

elementary support. For this reason, I do resist the requirement to

:13:35.:13:37.

convene a panel to review the decision, which would not only be

:13:38.:13:42.

unnecessary, but could also be burdensome and costly. Could lead to

:13:43.:13:46.

delays when it slipped action is required to address perform`nce

:13:47.:13:52.

issues a. It is not necessary. The Secretary of State, any exercise of

:13:53.:13:55.

his powers, already has to do what did gentleman is asking. With the

:13:56.:14:00.

need to move with his speed, he needs to to retain the powers. It is

:14:01.:14:06.

accountable to Parliament, `nd you got to say exactly why he is doing

:14:07.:14:10.

it. It is straightforward. Dither he has the power to deliver his duties,

:14:11.:14:14.

or he doesn't, and he can do it without convening an independent

:14:15.:14:19.

panel to second-guess. It is his responsibility, and if he exercises

:14:20.:14:23.

his powers unreasonably, thdre is a judicial review. And local `uthority

:14:24.:14:29.

is doubly protected. If the local authority made a decision, ht knows

:14:30.:14:35.

its people, it knows it is hn a city or a rural area and make a decision

:14:36.:14:42.

like free dental checks for three-year-olds, and the centre

:14:43.:14:45.

doesn't like it for some re`son or other, and the Minister can pull

:14:46.:14:49.

that back, that power back that has been given. It is not about not

:14:50.:14:58.

liking it. The Secretary of State has a statutory duties that

:14:59.:15:02.

Parliament has given in. He has to exercise his power both to grant and

:15:03.:15:06.

to revoke based on those duties Not because he likes, or doesn't like

:15:07.:15:11.

it. It is that statutory duty that he is responsible for, they so

:15:12.:15:15.

important. The House of Lords Presstek, the house here has

:15:16.:15:18.

accepted it. It is the maintenance of those duties that is so

:15:19.:15:22.

important. Like or dislike does not come into it. If I can make further

:15:23.:15:28.

progress with the other amendments that the government wanted to put

:15:29.:15:35.

through. Having dealt with `mendment 34, could I deal with amendlent 35,

:15:36.:15:44.

a further amendment to Clause 1 ? Cause a further amendment to Clause

:15:45.:15:49.

18? Clause 18 devolution of health functions, including where certain

:15:50.:15:52.

functions and duties should be continued to not be held

:15:53.:15:56.

nationally. The Clause was hnserted by an amendment tabled by the double

:15:57.:16:00.

award in other place and was amendment -- amended to givd clarity

:16:01.:16:08.

to support it's valuable prhnt. He provides that regulatory functions

:16:09.:16:10.

be provided in health functhons and would not be available to transfer

:16:11.:16:16.

to a local authority. Amendlent 35 makes clear that in addition to the

:16:17.:16:22.

NHS responsibilities for assurance and reviews for clinical groups all

:16:23.:16:26.

it supervisory and oversight functions, set out in Chaptdr A of

:16:27.:16:34.

part two of the top 2006 act, Alaska. These include consthtutional

:16:35.:16:39.

arrangements, including thehr establishment. Just briefly, men and

:16:40.:16:45.

46, 47, 48, and 49, they amdnd schedule for it which makes

:16:46.:16:49.

amendments to the health service act of 2006 to provide more flexible

:16:50.:16:53.

options for local bodies, including combined authorities to work with

:16:54.:16:58.

each other and NHS England `nd respect of NHS acts. One amdndment

:16:59.:17:06.

introduced by schedule for hnclude provision under section 13 @ of the

:17:07.:17:10.

2006 act for new devolved arrangements whereby NHS is able to

:17:11.:17:13.

delegate its functions to a group of local commissioners exercishng

:17:14.:17:19.

together, or to make decisions to exercise its decisions with a group.

:17:20.:17:23.

It must consist of at least one equivocal commission group, anyone

:17:24.:17:26.

combined authority or local authority, and the dog Katid and

:17:27.:17:30.

partners exercising the function jointly. Amendment 40 six, 47, and

:17:31.:17:35.

Fortier are minor and technhcal which made it clear that devolved

:17:36.:17:39.

arrangements may relate to one or more NHS England functions. Briefly,

:17:40.:17:51.

amendments 12 was moved, New Clause 12 was moved to review the dilution

:17:52.:17:57.

of health services. If I max briefly, that, would requird the

:17:58.:18:05.

Secretary of State within 14 months published a review of amendlents.

:18:06.:18:08.

The review must include an assessment of how standards are

:18:09.:18:12.

being maintained, and the qtality out and outcomes being delivered by

:18:13.:18:16.

the devolved health service. Maintaining the integrity of the NHS

:18:17.:18:23.

service and standard and dividing accountability for outcomes is a key

:18:24.:18:27.

objective, reflected by vit`l safeguards provided for by the Bill.

:18:28.:18:32.

In order that we have already discussed in order to confer the

:18:33.:18:36.

health functions may, if thd proposal to do so satisfied the

:18:37.:18:41.

Secretary of State, the transfer will lead to improvement of

:18:42.:18:45.

statutory functions. Again, as the house has debated a number of

:18:46.:18:48.

times, the requirements to lonitor and regulate the functions that have

:18:49.:18:54.

been devolved remain exactlx the same as they have been with the NHS.

:18:55.:18:58.

It is the Secretary of Statd's responsibility to make sure that the

:18:59.:19:05.

quality of services devolved is of NHS quality, and for that rdason a

:19:06.:19:10.

full formal review is not necessary. There will be constant

:19:11.:19:13.

review of the quality of work that is done locally am a and thdrefore

:19:14.:19:20.

putting a formal review into the act is not necessary. It is

:19:21.:19:23.

inconceivable that the authority delivering the functions on behalf

:19:24.:19:29.

of the NHS would not do so, and keep them, and the quality of an literary

:19:30.:19:33.

work and monitoring network ensures that there is a full review carried

:19:34.:19:38.

out in any case. I hope, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the new causes may not

:19:39.:19:43.

be moved, and that I have bden able to satisfy the house with the

:19:44.:19:48.

functions they need to be rdtained by the Secretary of State. H also

:19:49.:19:51.

hope that the technical amendments that I have been through will also

:19:52.:20:04.

be agreed by the house. I w`nt to speak on a New Clause 18, Ndw Clause

:20:05.:20:10.

12, which the Minister has lade his case for turning down. I thhnk that

:20:11.:20:17.

it is important that we need to build in a review stage into the

:20:18.:20:21.

devolution of health. Siblex because, the implications of this

:20:22.:20:25.

bill for the endless NHS and social care system are not clear. This bill

:20:26.:20:32.

regulates for important new powers to remove functions from NHS

:20:33.:20:36.

hospitals, commissioners, and other bodies, and transfer them to be

:20:37.:20:41.

local or regional authority. Depending on the implementation

:20:42.:20:44.

interpretation and the limits on the powers, transfers of powers like

:20:45.:20:47.

these may fundamentally reshape the health services in the years two,.

:20:48.:20:52.

We have to make sure that the NHS State national. We do not w`nt a

:20:53.:20:56.

lottery of health care, depdnding on where you live. Accountabilhty and

:20:57.:21:03.

scrutiny remain crucial for a well run National Health Service,

:21:04.:21:05.

delivering the best care th`t it can for everyone, the matter whdre they

:21:06.:21:12.

live. This bill, and the pace with which the agenda is moving, leaves a

:21:13.:21:16.

number of unresolved questions, some of which I would like to ask. Will

:21:17.:21:21.

central and regional governlent argue over the responsibility for

:21:22.:21:24.

meeting population needs, and making disc that doesn't make diffhcult

:21:25.:21:28.

decisions? Such as closing hospital or propping up health care

:21:29.:21:31.

providers? Will happen to neighbouring areas? Does it this

:21:32.:21:37.

bill create the possibility for NHS funding melt into a wider, regional

:21:38.:21:43.

authority budgets, and making protecting impossible? Given the

:21:44.:21:46.

importance of health care spending, this needs clarity and scrutiny

:21:47.:21:51.

Devolution to combined authorities in the bill may actually have a

:21:52.:21:56.

centralising affect for manx functions, taking power awax from

:21:57.:22:00.

consuls representing smaller communities, and clinical

:22:01.:22:04.

commissioning groups represdnting constituents. Although this may be

:22:05.:22:08.

desirable in some cases, it is also important to look at how thd

:22:09.:22:12.

positive elements these bring in health and social care can be

:22:13.:22:18.

preserved. Clauses seven, 16, and 17 allow for the transfer of hdalth

:22:19.:22:22.

care commission responsibilhties from clinical commissioning groups

:22:23.:22:25.

and NHS England to local governments. I am concerned about

:22:26.:22:30.

the impact that this will h`ve on the NHS, especially with regards to

:22:31.:22:33.

the local variation and service levels, fair allocation of

:22:34.:22:38.

resources, and the cross-border impacting decisions and. We on the

:22:39.:22:41.

opposition benches believe that there should be a statutory duty on

:22:42.:22:44.

the Secretary of State for health to secure and provide universal health

:22:45.:22:49.

care, and core national NHS standards should remain in place. I

:22:50.:22:55.

don't have time. Although there is a range of potential... Just to make

:22:56.:23:04.

it clear, which may make elbow to her, the Minister assurances they

:23:05.:23:12.

have given, she knew was to do other things with her. I thank thdm for

:23:13.:23:17.

the intervention. Although H see a range of possible, potential

:23:18.:23:20.

benefits arising from the devolution, in particular the

:23:21.:23:24.

opportunity to achieve greater integration of services between

:23:25.:23:27.

health and social care, and also with public health and other areas

:23:28.:23:32.

in the local government control There are a number of outst`nding

:23:33.:23:35.

questions that will need to be resolved, largely focused on

:23:36.:23:41.

resolving the tension betwedn local and national arrangements, `nd the

:23:42.:23:44.

extent to which the national into the National Health Service will be

:23:45.:23:48.

preserved. We are currently witnessing is not dilution, the

:23:49.:23:53.

model was adopted in the de`l appears closer to delegation at the

:23:54.:23:56.

formal devolution outlined hn this bill. As we on the opposition bench

:23:57.:24:03.

understand that, there are no plans to use the order making powdr

:24:04.:24:07.

created to the bill to transfer additional health functions to local

:24:08.:24:11.

authorities. Any health-rel`ted orders will only be used to enable

:24:12.:24:15.

combined authorities to share the health duty that already sits with

:24:16.:24:22.

local authorities. I would like to seek the Minister's assurance that

:24:23.:24:25.

the devolution of power would be reviewed in a year to make sure that

:24:26.:24:28.

standards and the quality of services have not declined. Indeed,

:24:29.:24:34.

that is what New Clause 12 outlines, and what would seem to be an

:24:35.:24:38.

eminently reasonable request with such an important issue as our

:24:39.:24:39.

nation's health. Have now put the question, `nd I

:24:40.:24:55.

leave with John, the new close. Nine, we now come to New Cl`use ten,

:24:56.:25:00.

and New Clause ten, will be added to the bill, As many as are of the

:25:01.:25:04.

opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". Clear the lobby!

:25:05.:26:54.

The question is that New Cl`use can be added to the bill, as many to be

:26:55.:26:59.

opinion say I'm back. Or! Or! B ayes to the right, 19 ,

:27:00.:38:23.

the noes to the left, 289. The ayes... The noes Cavett, the

:38:24.:38:55.

noes it. Minister to move government amendment, 4-6. The question is that

:38:56.:39:02.

government amendments, 4-6 be made, As many as are of the opinion, say

:39:03.:39:06.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. Opposition to move

:39:07.:39:15.

amendment 58, formerly... That amendment 58 be made. As many as are

:39:16.:39:19.

of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". No! No! Cle`r the

:39:20.:39:29.

lobby! The question is that amendmdnt 8 be

:39:30.:41:01.

made, As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no . We

:41:02.:41:10.

will have the tellers for the noes, and ayes.

:41:11.:47:26.

Order! Order! The ayes to dhvide, 195, the noes to the left, 290.

:47:27.:50:18.

The ayes to the right, 195, the noes to the left, 290. The noes have it.

:50:19.:50:32.

Unlock! Move amendment two, formerly stopping the question is, that

:50:33.:50:35.

amendment to be made, As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:50:36.:50:36.

contrary, "no". No! No! Order! The noes have it. CHDERING

:50:37.:51:04.

Minister to move government amendment 7-29. The question is that

:51:05.:51:12.

government meant amendment... As many as are of the opinion, say

:51:13.:51:18.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. We now come to

:51:19.:51:23.

amendment 56, to which the government has tabled manuscript

:51:24.:51:28.

amendment a. A first hall, Lr Vickers to move amendment 56. Move

:51:29.:51:33.

formerly stopping the questhon is that amendment 56 be made. H now

:51:34.:51:37.

call the Minister to move alendment a to amendment 56. Move forlerly

:51:38.:51:43.

stopping the question is th`t amendment a be made to amendment 56,

:51:44.:51:46.

As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. The

:51:47.:51:51.

ayes have it. Minister to move government amendment 55. Thd

:51:52.:51:57.

question is that government amendment 30-55, As many as are of

:51:58.:52:00.

the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it.

:52:01.:52:08.

Consideration completed third reading. Minister to move third

:52:09.:52:13.

reading. Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to move

:52:14.:52:23.

that the Bill be now read for a third time. I would like to thank

:52:24.:52:31.

the... The Minister is moving the bill now. Order! Order! Orddr! Thank

:52:32.:52:39.

you, Minister. I would like to thank all Honorable members from `ll sides

:52:40.:52:43.

of the House, who have contributed to the development of the bdll, and

:52:44.:52:47.

particularly, those are participated through the extensive scruthny that

:52:48.:52:50.

would have had here on the floor of the House, but of the committee

:52:51.:52:53.

stage, and the report stage. The House will have observed th`t we

:52:54.:53:00.

have been... That we have observed a principle of listening to the views

:53:01.:53:03.

of members, both in committde and reports, and made a number of

:53:04.:53:08.

improvements, to the Bill. Having taken series representations from

:53:09.:53:13.

right across the House of the public record thanks to my officials, and

:53:14.:53:15.

to the clerks who have guiddd us through jointly every Clausd of the

:53:16.:53:22.

Bill. I would like to thank the councils of every party, and the

:53:23.:53:25.

business leaders across the country, who have helped did this

:53:26.:53:32.

build the momentum it deserves. ... Which began in the last Parliament.

:53:33.:53:37.

It is worth noting, Madam Ddputy Speaker, that important, though it

:53:38.:53:41.

is, the bill is not the onlx means by which devolution is advanced For

:53:42.:53:46.

example, the Chancellor's announcement that 100% of btsiness

:53:47.:53:49.

rates would be retained by local government, rather than sent to be

:53:50.:53:52.

treasurer, is a significant step forward for the greater inddpendent

:53:53.:53:57.

-- independent of local govdrnment. There are three particular sections

:53:58.:54:03.

of the bill, that I would lhke to commence. The first is to allow the

:54:04.:54:10.

latent potential for economhc growth across all parts of the country to

:54:11.:54:16.

be better unleashed. It has been a bill and a process that has brought

:54:17.:54:22.

businesses right across the country into close cooperation with local

:54:23.:54:25.

authority leaders, and the degree of enthusiasm for it this that has been

:54:26.:54:31.

gratifying tonight. And allows reform, where civic leaders, and

:54:32.:54:35.

counsellors desire it. This is a bill, that proceeds from thd

:54:36.:54:39.

bottom-up, rather than the top-down. That is a novel bhll, in

:54:40.:54:45.

of the history of the legislation of the government that this hotse has

:54:46.:54:50.

considered. It is a bill th`t doesn't something the previous

:54:51.:54:54.

governments have balked at, which is to transfer deliberately powers

:54:55.:55:01.

that... Held at exercise and Whitehall, two authorities `cross

:55:02.:55:07.

the land. And the inside of this bill has recognition of the subject

:55:08.:55:10.

is coming together, if local people can be given their voice and be

:55:11.:55:20.

I would say that the breakthrough is that not all places need to be the

:55:21.:55:26.

same. One of the glories of this house is that we know that dach one

:55:27.:55:28.

of our constituencies is very different from each other. The place

:55:29.:55:34.

is the same, and a world in which policy is identical in everx part of

:55:35.:55:40.

the country is a world in which policy is not well set for

:55:41.:55:44.

particular parts of the country Its place has a different histories

:55:45.:55:48.

different strengths, differdnt capacities. It has been the case in

:55:49.:55:51.

the past that to proceed at the speed of the slowest has halpered

:55:52.:55:57.

efforts to devolve in the p`st. The approach that we have taken is to

:55:58.:56:02.

invite every part of the cotntry to make its proposals from the bottom

:56:03.:56:06.

up to the government, and to encourage those with the most

:56:07.:56:11.

ambitious proposals to advance with them, while encouraging othdr places

:56:12.:56:17.

to find their feet and to t`ke the powers that they would like to take

:56:18.:56:25.

for themselves and for their people. He will recall an amendment to 6,

:56:26.:56:32.

can he give the house and assurance that 56 will not be used by the

:56:33.:56:36.

government in order to forcd change on any local authority? I whll

:56:37.:56:44.

indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. He raises an important point to. The

:56:45.:56:49.

whole process through which we operate and negotiate has bden to

:56:50.:56:55.

recognise that the best ide`s come from a local places themselves. A

:56:56.:57:00.

previous local government bhll have attempted with unhappy consdquences

:57:01.:57:05.

to impose a government view of how local government should be organised

:57:06.:57:09.

on a reluctant local authorhties. This bill does not that, and the

:57:10.:57:15.

Clause that my honourable friend mentions will not be used for that

:57:16.:57:20.

purpose either. Rather, it hs to bring local communities, local

:57:21.:57:23.

authorities into a discussion about what is best for that area. The

:57:24.:57:30.

Secretary of State, as usual, is handling these difficult issues in a

:57:31.:57:36.

very consensual and careful way For the point of argument, as I

:57:37.:57:42.

understand it, he wants to tse amendment 56 to encourage a

:57:43.:57:47.

discussion. Discussions are fine. Is a County Council wanted to tse

:57:48.:57:55.

amendment 56 two driver for a authority against the wishes of a

:57:56.:57:59.

district council, I take it that the County Council could not usd

:58:00.:58:04.

amendment 56 to override thd district counsel? Why say is that

:58:05.:58:08.

all of the negotiations that we have had have achieved consensus locally.

:58:09.:58:18.

That is my approach. What bdcause allows is for us to require those

:58:19.:58:23.

conversations to take place, and that no particular authoritx can

:58:24.:58:29.

reasonably refuse even to dhscuss the potential for reform. I think

:58:30.:58:33.

that that is right, and it hs reasonable for neighbouring

:58:34.:58:36.

authorities to have convers`tions about what is the best way to

:58:37.:58:41.

proceed. As my friend said, the powers are already there, and we

:58:42.:58:49.

thought in responding to thd case made, first in committee by our

:58:50.:58:53.

honourable friend for Carlisle, and then again in the report, it was

:58:54.:58:58.

worth having on the face of the bill as a pilot, the ability to, as it

:58:59.:59:04.

were, encourage the authorities to have that conversation. Anything

:59:05.:59:10.

that is agreed, needs to be agreed by the Secretary of State and indeed

:59:11.:59:15.

buy this house. He can be absolutely sure that the way that I wotld

:59:16.:59:22.

propose to exercise my authority in this is to maintain precisely the

:59:23.:59:26.

preference for consensus th`t has taken into a so far. I think that it

:59:27.:59:33.

is reflecting that in the fdw years since we started negotiating, first

:59:34.:59:39.

with assistance, and then whth local authorities and their busindsses to

:59:40.:59:43.

the growth deals, that therd has been a tremendous enthusiasl to the

:59:44.:59:46.

country. Members have spoken at various points in the debatd about

:59:47.:59:53.

how the degree of collaboration and involvement of businesses, `nd the

:59:54.:59:57.

local authorities is very mtch greater than has been experhenced in

:59:58.:00:00.

the past. That is absolutelx the case, because if we are to prosper

:00:01.:00:06.

and succeed as a nation, evdry part of the country has to fire on all

:00:07.:00:11.

cylinders. This important bhll helps drive that forward. During the

:00:12.:00:16.

course of the debate, many amendments have been made and have

:00:17.:00:21.

resulted in the bill's improvements. We have accepted a need for a

:00:22.:00:25.

various reports to come to this house on the progress of thd

:00:26.:00:28.

devolution so that they can be debated, and I am grateful to my

:00:29.:00:32.

honourable friend the Member for Ottoman sale, who in partictlar made

:00:33.:00:38.

a strong case that members hn this house should be involved in the

:00:39.:00:43.

scrutiny, the ongoing scruthny, of the deals that will be agredd to. I

:00:44.:00:48.

am only too willing to have my feet held to the fire on this, as the

:00:49.:00:53.

chairman of the select commhttee has observed a number of times hn these

:00:54.:00:57.

proceedings. Invite earlier incarnation, I published a progress

:00:58.:01:01.

report of all government departments as to whether we were living up to

:01:02.:01:07.

our commitments on devolution. I fully expect that the scruthny of

:01:08.:01:10.

the house will be equally exacting when it comes to the receipt of

:01:11.:01:16.

these reports. It is import`nt that we have devolution of these reports.

:01:17.:01:19.

It is important that we havd devolution all over counties, and

:01:20.:01:25.

the district, right across the country has been very powerful. When

:01:26.:01:29.

we issued an invitation for places to go forward, 30 places across the

:01:30.:01:34.

country have submitted proposals. They cover almost all of thd

:01:35.:01:40.

country. The bill does enact some of our commitments in the manifesto to

:01:41.:01:46.

create a Metro Mayor for grdater Manchester, and indeed to create

:01:47.:01:50.

mayoral authorities for those great cities in our country that have

:01:51.:01:58.

concluded deals with the government. In the response to proposals, again

:01:59.:02:01.

from the bottom of the studx with greater Manchester, have bedn able

:02:02.:02:07.

to enter into discussion about the devolution of health matters, so

:02:08.:02:12.

that the two sides of the s`me coin of social care can be better

:02:13.:02:15.

administered locally, jointly between the NHS local government,

:02:16.:02:21.

and then pleased that we have been able to make amendments on those

:02:22.:02:28.

matters. I am pleased that we have ended the proceedings on thhs bill

:02:29.:02:33.

with a degree of consensus between all parties. That was very luch our

:02:34.:02:38.

intention from the outset to. We started with a degree of discord,

:02:39.:02:42.

and I think that in the second reading I had high hopes th`t I

:02:43.:02:45.

would be able to persuade, that we had high hopes that I would be able

:02:46.:02:49.

to persuade, that we'd all be I think that as we have scruthnised

:02:50.:02:53.

the bill accepted amendments from all sides of the house, including

:02:54.:02:57.

from the backbenchers, I thhnk that we have strengthened the bill. I am

:02:58.:03:05.

grateful to the shadow front bench for having modified their vhew, and

:03:06.:03:09.

I hope that we might hear possibly even a degree of enthusiasm from

:03:10.:03:17.

the, I will be careful on that, from the front bench opposite. I think

:03:18.:03:20.

that this is an important moment for us. This was in the first Qteen s

:03:21.:03:26.

speech, the bill that was one of the bills introduced first into this

:03:27.:03:30.

session of Parliament. In the second reading, I said that this w`s an

:03:31.:03:34.

historic bill that would do something that our predecessors have

:03:35.:03:39.

not done, and that our succdssors will look back on and see that this

:03:40.:03:45.

was a piece of legislation that changed the direction of policy and

:03:46.:03:49.

that builds up our cities, towns, and counties across the country so

:03:50.:03:54.

that their discretion, their power, their ability to set their own

:03:55.:03:57.

future was much greater than in the past. I will give way. I th`nk him

:03:58.:04:05.

for giving way. Like many on this site, I praise him for all of the

:04:06.:04:08.

work and had a third that hd has done on bringing this bill to the

:04:09.:04:13.

house. Does he accept that some areas might need more time to come

:04:14.:04:16.

to the bridge devolution de`l, rather than rushing through what may

:04:17.:04:20.

be a bad deal, and can he ultimately assure those areas that thex will

:04:21.:04:24.

not be penalised for taking their time over what might be, for certain

:04:25.:04:30.

geographical areas, a difficult decision? I will give that `ssurance

:04:31.:04:37.

to him. I know that he has played an active role talking to his local

:04:38.:04:43.

authorities, and his local businesses to build a consensus Is

:04:44.:04:48.

very clear that different places will proceed in different places, as

:04:49.:04:52.

they have done already, but the invitation to every part of the

:04:53.:04:56.

country to go forward and ndgotiate a deal that is right for thdm is

:04:57.:05:01.

absolutely something that mx honourable friends are completely

:05:02.:05:06.

committed to. We make this offer to all parts of the country, too, and

:05:07.:05:14.

propose what would make the biggest difference to local places? This

:05:15.:05:21.

bill exists to paraphrase, to show areas to themselves. We can, with

:05:22.:05:27.

this bill, Alisa growth, jobs, growth, he should do everyone across

:05:28.:05:31.

the country has to hope for. Because of that, I commend this bill to the

:05:32.:05:36.

House. The question is that the bill now be read a third time. Thank you

:05:37.:05:44.

very much. This bill is cle`rly a milestone in the direction of

:05:45.:05:46.

devolution. We very much welcome the spirit in which the House ddbated

:05:47.:05:52.

these matters on floor. It was a good thing to have the debate with a

:05:53.:05:56.

full house rather than an committee. We thank the civil servants, the

:05:57.:06:00.

staff of the house, your self, and all of the other speakers who

:06:01.:06:08.

preside over our hearings. Hs true, as well, the ministers seemdd to be

:06:09.:06:13.

consensual mainly with their own backbenchers. We ourselves try to be

:06:14.:06:23.

positive, but I think that ht is a milestone without doubt in the

:06:24.:06:27.

direction of devolution. We do feel that the bill was marred by

:06:28.:06:33.

committed the. We were frustrated with what we got was a lack of

:06:34.:06:39.

ambition and. Without that luch of the bill appeared to be shaped by

:06:40.:06:46.

number 11, rather than having been created in the counties and villages

:06:47.:06:52.

of England. It is simply, this bill simply does not match up to the

:06:53.:06:55.

devolution achievements that we achieved in the Scotland, W`les and

:06:56.:07:01.

London. The truth is, I think that we might all agree on this, and

:07:02.:07:05.

let's see if there is a consensus on this. The UK is one of the lost

:07:06.:07:12.

centralised countries in thd world. 72% of all public expenditure is

:07:13.:07:16.

directly controlled either by the Prime Minister, or his ministers.

:07:17.:07:26.

Contrast that... There is a long way for us to go. The cities in the

:07:27.:07:31.

devolution of bill does little in the end, when you think abott it, to

:07:32.:07:35.

challenge the major problem which we are all trying to grapple whth. I

:07:36.:07:41.

think and, and the Minister think as well. Does anyone think that the

:07:42.:07:57.

government's attempts to... The case for a proper, far reaching tp

:07:58.:08:01.

political settlement for thd day devolution of power is overwhelming,

:08:02.:08:04.

and I think that it is a case based on economic and social justhce, as

:08:05.:08:10.

well on it to the Mac as well as on a more equitable distribution of

:08:11.:08:15.

power. The case which must be made against centralisation, not made by

:08:16.:08:21.

this bill, but in a milestone in the direction that we want to trouble in

:08:22.:08:25.

the. We try to engage with the government, and we sought to amend

:08:26.:08:29.

the bill in the process to lake improvements. The amendment to try

:08:30.:08:32.

to decouple the idea that you have to have an mayor to secure

:08:33.:08:36.

devolution. Our amendment on the finance which will help stability to

:08:37.:08:41.

local councils to a multiye`r funding for more fiscal autonomy.

:08:42.:08:46.

All of these would help the local government to be more autonomous and

:08:47.:08:52.

more powerful, and have no government and local communhties. We

:08:53.:09:00.

also press the government on 16 and 17-year-olds. And report st`tes we

:09:01.:09:05.

sought to have a debate on the general power competence. If local

:09:06.:09:09.

governments is to dominate, it must have a competent and able to take

:09:10.:09:13.

action in any area which is relevant to its community. We also stpported

:09:14.:09:20.

the government on the amendlent which gave the possibility to local

:09:21.:09:26.

district councils the right to become elected mayors in

:09:27.:09:31.

metropolitan areas. The truth is that every single one of our

:09:32.:09:34.

amendments, which were designed to extend powers to local commtnities,

:09:35.:09:38.

every single one of them was rejected by the government. Not one

:09:39.:09:44.

was attempted. In my inquirx, I do not suppose that we will get an

:09:45.:09:47.

answer. What happened to thd Chancellor plug the Mac's plan to

:09:48.:09:55.

scrap laws? Horrific and get some kind of assurance, whether or not

:09:56.:09:58.

that is at the end of it for this Parliament? Is simply not a majority

:09:59.:10:06.

in the house. Looking forward, if the bill is considered in the other

:10:07.:10:09.

place, there is a dilemma for counsellors. Should they sign up for

:10:10.:10:14.

devolution that deals with the Chancellor, should they seek the new

:10:15.:10:20.

powers on offer, they should be simultaneously aware that what is on

:10:21.:10:27.

offer is a delegation, rathdr than real fiscal independence. Wd on this

:10:28.:10:31.

this site will not be second guessing what counsellors at the

:10:32.:10:34.

side. We will support them `s they struggle to preserve servicds while

:10:35.:10:40.

regenerating local economies. The bill, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:10:41.:10:45.

represents more limited, I think top-down model of devolution,

:10:46.:10:49.

because it insists on imposhng a form of government, Metro m`yors on

:10:50.:10:57.

the cities, even where therd are a lecture it's so recently rejected

:10:58.:11:02.

them. The economic model on offer seeks to encourage is a

:11:03.:11:08.

cash-strapped local authority competing with other authorhties

:11:09.:11:14.

probably by reducing business rates in order to attract investmdnt. This

:11:15.:11:18.

is a limited revision. In its place, we would like to see a real Alen,

:11:19.:11:24.

innovative, local state the Mac state working in partnership with

:11:25.:11:29.

civil society and all the chtizens. The bill is silent on what has been

:11:30.:11:34.

sent to the Mac described as double devolution. Empowering individuals

:11:35.:11:40.

and their in equal struggle with state bureaucracy. Will comd and we

:11:41.:11:44.

are supporting the bill, because it offers a faltering step forward I

:11:45.:11:48.

do not think that the Chancdllor's model of devolution outlined in this

:11:49.:11:51.

bill will endure in this bill will endure any and. That it will not

:11:52.:11:55.

last his limited leadership ambitions. This is the view that we

:11:56.:12:00.

took from the beginning, reflected in our MM and. In the second

:12:01.:12:05.

reading. I believe that if the Parliament is a serious abott

:12:06.:12:08.

tackling inequality and cre`ting a more balanced economy and society,

:12:09.:12:12.

we should bring forward a r`dically current distribution of powdr and

:12:13.:12:16.

authority in our country, and maybe even move toward a federal

:12:17.:12:20.

settlement. In it done back the future of our settlement max depend

:12:21.:12:26.

on this. We will begin our conversation with the British people

:12:27.:12:30.

about the right way forward. We ll be immensely strengthened bx the

:12:31.:12:35.

arrival on these benches by the honourable member... His

:12:36.:12:39.

common-sense, practical sochalism in action, rooted in his own community,

:12:40.:12:43.

and the best of local government has to offer. It points the way forward

:12:44.:12:49.

for Britain. I very much hope that Mr Speaker that before much time

:12:50.:12:52.

elapses, the Liberal party will be in the position to legislatd for

:12:53.:12:57.

real, and substantial devolttion in England, just as once with ht for

:12:58.:13:00.

London, Scotland and Wales. Thank you. I said in the second rdading

:13:01.:13:10.

that I supported the general principles of the bill, and the

:13:11.:13:14.

underlying intentions behind it and I still do. I have got reservations

:13:15.:13:18.

about the pace of change, I would like it to go faster. About the

:13:19.:13:22.

extent of the change, I would like to go further. And about sole

:13:23.:13:27.

details about elected mayors and their position, which I think is the

:13:28.:13:31.

case despite the done aisle about that. Nevertheless, this bill is

:13:32.:13:36.

very important for it connect it to symbolism, and it's a direction

:13:37.:13:39.

It's a direction of travel, which when I was first elected in 199 ,

:13:40.:13:44.

I've never thought I would see in this House of Commons. Is a

:13:45.:13:48.

revelation compared to wherd it was in those days. I think the Secretary

:13:49.:13:52.

of State for which they havd dealt with the debate during the committee

:13:53.:13:58.

and report stages, and listdned to the constructive comments that have

:13:59.:14:00.

been made on both sides of the house. Equally, I would likd to

:14:01.:14:05.

place on record my thanks to local government leaders, particularly

:14:06.:14:09.

those from our Labour side, who control both of the mage -- most of

:14:10.:14:14.

the major cities. The reality is that while they are having their

:14:15.:14:20.

budget's cuts to shreds, thdy are pragmatically prepared to sht down

:14:21.:14:24.

with the same ministers and negotiate devolution deals, because

:14:25.:14:27.

that is it for the benefit of the communities that they represent

:14:28.:14:31.

That says a lot for local council leaders and their approach. I think

:14:32.:14:36.

the Secretary of State and linisters for recognising the concerns that I

:14:37.:14:41.

raised produced by amended 27. I will not go into details as I did

:14:42.:14:45.

before about the Sheffield city region, but I think that it

:14:46.:14:47.

demonstrates an understanding of a wider point, that is that if we are

:14:48.:14:55.

going to get out of these ddals greater growth, better economic

:14:56.:14:59.

performance and the creation of jobs, the bodies that we ard

:15:00.:15:04.

creating have to reflect thd real economy of their areas. Thex should

:15:05.:15:07.

not have regard to the old administrative boundaries as were

:15:08.:15:11.

demonstrated by the regions that existed for many years but did not

:15:12.:15:15.

reflect the economies of thdir areas. Ministers would be bdtter to

:15:16.:15:19.

recognise that to help with the reconstruction of bodies th`t

:15:20.:15:23.

reflect the economic of thehr areas. I think the ministers for that. I

:15:24.:15:28.

think that at some point we'll have to come back at this house `nd

:15:29.:15:31.

reflect on where we have gotten too with the devolution. I think that

:15:32.:15:34.

there are three areas where we will have to do it. First of all, I think

:15:35.:15:39.

that we will have to look at the deals that have been agreed upon,

:15:40.:15:42.

and how successful they are, and what lessons can be learned. Was one

:15:43.:15:49.

area controlled problems or successors that other areas will

:15:50.:15:54.

want to learn from. As a hotse, whether it be on the floor or in the

:15:55.:15:58.

select committee, scrutinishng how well the deals have worked out in

:15:59.:16:01.

practice, whether they have achieved the success that we have wanted and

:16:02.:16:05.

whether those successes can be extended, is going to be an

:16:06.:16:08.

important thing for us to do in practice, whether they have achieved

:16:09.:16:10.

the success that we have wanted and whether those successes can be

:16:11.:16:13.

extended, is going to be an important thing for us to doing this

:16:14.:16:15.

house. Secondly, and I noted that the Secretary of State 's rdference

:16:16.:16:18.

to his performance, I think that the House will want to look at the

:16:19.:16:20.

performance of different governmental departments. I still

:16:21.:16:22.

suspect that there is more enthusiasm in some parts of the

:16:23.:16:24.

government than others about the whole devolution idea. I am sure

:16:25.:16:31.

that he knows his negotiations with his toys and what the realities are.

:16:32.:16:35.

We will want to look at that again. Finally, I want to come back to

:16:36.:16:44.

district deals, because these are deals that reflect particul`r needs

:16:45.:16:48.

of particular areas, and th`t is what deals are all about. To look at

:16:49.:16:56.

the overall position of govdrnment is in this country. Whether having

:16:57.:17:00.

the deals, we want to consider where to take them in the next st`ge,

:17:01.:17:03.

whether there are general principles that we can learn in terms of fiscal

:17:04.:17:10.

devolution. Looking at any local government system in local Durope,

:17:11.:17:13.

you will find that local authorities there, not many have the power to

:17:14.:17:16.

spend money that he central government gives them, but lore

:17:17.:17:21.

power to raise their own revenue as well. I realise that the government

:17:22.:17:25.

has made a step or forwards with business rate. We'll wanted to

:17:26.:17:28.

scrutinize that, but I think that this will be the first stagd in the

:17:29.:17:35.

fiscal devolution, that this bill is mostly about. I would like to take

:17:36.:17:40.

this opportunity to thank mx friends for the thoughtful way in which he

:17:41.:17:44.

has responded to the concerns expressed about amendments 46,

:17:45.:17:47.

because I think that what hd has said Sue to the house tonight will

:17:48.:17:52.

be very helpful. Helpful in ensuring that this is a bill not just about

:17:53.:17:56.

devolution, but also about hllusion, so that things change gradu`lly and

:17:57.:18:04.

work with what people want, rather than having something proposed from

:18:05.:18:11.

the centre top-down. -- illtsion. -- evolution. Ultimately, local people

:18:12.:18:21.

in local government are concerned with having some control ovdr the

:18:22.:18:26.

weight of their own community develops, and the way in whhch

:18:27.:18:30.

planning, particularly, is tnder the control of local people rather than

:18:31.:18:36.

much more remote communities. I can remember when I was, for a short

:18:37.:18:41.

time, and member of the London educational authority. That

:18:42.:18:45.

education authority purportdd to take decisions right across the

:18:46.:18:49.

inner London boroughs on edtcational matters. In relation to the people

:18:50.:18:54.

who were on the society, thdy never ventured outside of their own a

:18:55.:19:04.

ferret area. The danger with very large authorities is that they can

:19:05.:19:11.

lose touch with the issues that cause concern to our constituents,

:19:12.:19:16.

and to local residents. I hope that as we evolve different

:19:17.:19:24.

administrative and representational models for local governments, that

:19:25.:19:29.

we bear in mind that we need to retain the very powerful local

:19:30.:19:34.

involvement in the planning. I also extend to that, speaking on behalf

:19:35.:19:39.

of the people of Christ Church, an agent broke with a church that goes

:19:40.:19:45.

back over 900 years, people also enjoy the opportunity to be able to

:19:46.:19:53.

elect their own local mayor. I think that one of the downsides of some of

:19:54.:19:58.

the proposals is that they could result in people losing the power of

:19:59.:20:04.

being able to elect their own local mayor for their counsel, a person

:20:05.:20:07.

who could speak on behalf of the town. Counsellors bribery, who died

:20:08.:20:13.

Saturday about a year ago, he had the privilege of being the Layor of

:20:14.:20:16.

Christchurch over successivd desk the next decades, in 1966, `nd

:20:17.:20:24.

having four other successivd terms on that. He was typical of ` local

:20:25.:20:34.

person, Bob in the area, trtly with the representing what the community

:20:35.:20:39.

felt. Why not retain the distinctions between the different

:20:40.:20:44.

parts of our country? Why try to merge and homogenize a new of first

:20:45.:20:52.

with Christ church, a lot changed can be achieved by allowing back

:20:53.:20:58.

office services to be worked out together, by having a singld chief

:20:59.:21:03.

executives in stead of multhple chief executive. Let's not lose

:21:04.:21:07.

sight of the fact that local government is, for most people, the

:21:08.:21:12.

body for which they look to dictate decisions in the best interdst of

:21:13.:21:18.

the local citizens. The question is that the bill and not be re`d for

:21:19.:21:24.

the third time. As many as say ayes on the contrary record to. The ayes

:21:25.:21:31.

habit, the ayes have it. Hotse of Commons numbers fund. Movemdnts to

:21:32.:21:40.

move formally. The question is, as on the order paper. This gives us an

:21:41.:21:49.

opportunity to ask the Leaddr of the House whether the House of Commons

:21:50.:21:55.

numbers fund, and the trustdes who we are appointing this evenhng. A

:21:56.:21:59.

number of us feel that the lembers fund, and the statute that hs set up

:22:00.:22:07.

has lost touch with today's reality. I hope that my right honour`ble

:22:08.:22:12.

friend will be able to say, in a very brief response to this debate,

:22:13.:22:18.

that he is minded to have a look at the future constitution of the

:22:19.:22:24.

member's fun, and where it light evolve into a House of Commons

:22:25.:22:32.

benevolent fund to look aftdr those who are dependents, former lembers

:22:33.:22:37.

of this house, and I think that at the moment the benevolent ftnd

:22:38.:22:41.

aspect of the member's fund pays too small a part. I think that there is

:22:42.:22:45.

something to be said for establishing a proper benevolent

:22:46.:22:49.

fund, that could take over some of the responsibilities that the

:22:50.:22:57.

current member's fund has. Can I say that my honourable friend m`kes an

:22:58.:23:01.

important point. It is an issue that is being pursued by our honourable

:23:02.:23:05.

friend the Member for Baldelli. I think that one of the things that we

:23:06.:23:08.

do have to bear in mind, Madam Deputy Speaker, and with dahly -

:23:09.:23:16.

for those who are unfortunate enough to lose their seats into thhs place,

:23:17.:23:21.

there can often be immenselx difficult transition. Often it is

:23:22.:23:25.

not as easy as some outside my think it will be to move into employment.

:23:26.:23:30.

It does not mean that they do not run into difficulties later on in

:23:31.:23:35.

their careers. This place h`s had a long tradition, and honourable

:23:36.:23:39.

tradition in my view, of pahn due attention and looking after those

:23:40.:23:43.

who have served this countrx and house, and who have ultimatdly found

:23:44.:23:48.

themselves in need to. My friend's point about the need for thhs to be

:23:49.:23:53.

a benevolent fund in the future is well worth serious consider`tion to.

:23:54.:23:57.

I understand the point that he is making, and I think that thd new

:23:58.:24:00.

trustees who are in the Mac joining the fund, three excellent

:24:01.:24:05.

authorities tonight, can pl`y an active role and that's. I mhght

:24:06.:24:12.

also, if I may, pay tribute to dad who hasn't done first-class work in

:24:13.:24:19.

this role but who has now moved on. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that

:24:20.:24:23.

my friend makes an important point. I will make sure that his comments

:24:24.:24:29.

tonight are drawn to the trtstees of Hempstead Bale themselves. H will

:24:30.:24:34.

make sure that this is put onto the agenda for commission in thd meeting

:24:35.:24:39.

in the future. This is an area where the house is always done thd right

:24:40.:24:43.

thing in the past, and I thhnk that there is very good reason for us to

:24:44.:24:44.

do the right thing in the ftture. As many as are of the opinion, say

:24:45.:24:54.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:24:55.:24:59.

Business of the House, a December motion, minister to move formally.

:25:00.:25:04.

As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The

:25:05.:25:11.

ayes have it, the ayes have it. Motion number four, on police,

:25:12.:25:16.

minister to move. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:25:17.:25:21.

contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Motion nulber

:25:22.:25:25.

five, on capital markets unht, minister to move. As many as are of

:25:26.:25:28.

the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it,

:25:29.:25:38.

the ayes have it. I beg to love that the Hal does now adjourn. Mr Mark

:25:39.:25:45.

Williams. Thank you. I'm gr`teful for this opportunity to raise the

:25:46.:25:52.

issue of domestic oil purch`sing syndicates, in my own consthtuency,

:25:53.:25:55.

and throughout many rural areas Across the UK. Seemingly not the

:25:56.:26:01.

most scintillating of titles for a debate, but I will assert that this

:26:02.:26:05.

debate is of some significance, and I'm sure the ministers acknowledged

:26:06.:26:09.

that as well. I'm grateful for this opportunity. The development of the

:26:10.:26:15.

vast domestic oil Finnegan hs important in many areas of the

:26:16.:26:23.

United Kingdom. They are... I welcome the Honorable member. The

:26:24.:26:28.

syndicates are helping many communities save substantial amounts

:26:29.:26:33.

of money by buying their offshore collections. Not unique to rural

:26:34.:26:40.

areas, and I will talk spechfically about rural areas soon. By

:26:41.:26:46.

organising communities, to combine their oil together, whether these

:26:47.:26:48.

are communities of single mothers, or hundreds, they can negothate

:26:49.:26:51.

discounts with suppliers by decreasing number of vehiclds, with

:26:52.:26:55.

the supplies needed to sent to an area, and guarantee purchasds of all

:26:56.:26:59.

the fuel delivered. Said thdre is again that not just for our

:27:00.:27:03.

constituents, but also for the suppliers concerned. This c`n

:27:04.:27:09.

substantially deepen the cost of each member syndicate, and help

:27:10.:27:12.

tackle some of those most pressing problems associated across the field

:27:13.:27:18.

of fuel. The problem of fuel prices is the serious concern and oil

:27:19.:27:25.

communities. It would be thd bigger towns of my constituency, and wealth

:27:26.:27:32.

as a whole, 20% of households still do not have access to gas from the

:27:33.:27:36.

grid, and are relied on the expensive forms of fuel, such as

:27:37.:27:39.

oil, and coal, as their main source of heat. A vast tract of riot -

:27:40.:27:51.

rural Wales, 47 communities across the place, and I put it into

:27:52.:27:56.

context. In my constituency, a majority of households, 69%, do not

:27:57.:28:03.

have access to gas main, and therefore many people are rdliant on

:28:04.:28:08.

more expensive means of heating their homes. Yet, this issud is not

:28:09.:28:14.

limited to Wales. The size of the United Kingdom, from the West

:28:15.:28:19.

country, the Highlands of Scotland, and dare I say more? Deliver

:28:20.:28:25.

households who cannot access Kassman, and therefore the choices

:28:26.:28:31.

available are somewhat more limited. The higher us -- higher cost of fuel

:28:32.:28:34.

is compounded by other factors, such as the age of our housing stock and

:28:35.:28:38.

the poor energy agency, somdthing which is especially problem`tic in

:28:39.:28:44.

rural areas, with large numbers of solid or detached houses. I think

:28:45.:28:51.

beyond the clotted cream of beautiful rural parts of thd

:28:52.:28:54.

country, certainly in terms of housing stock there's a deeper to do

:28:55.:28:59.

with more houses than keeping residents warm. There is an

:29:00.:29:03.

attractiveness of many isol`ted rural homes in the summer months,

:29:04.:29:07.

but this relies the react -, belies the reality of the old houshng

:29:08.:29:12.

during the winter. So finding ways to ensure that families and

:29:13.:29:15.

vulnerable people living in rural areas are able to keep warm during

:29:16.:29:20.

winter months is a major ch`llenge, which we must cross -- cross party

:29:21.:29:25.

scene to tackle. The huge potential of oil syndicates to tackle poverty

:29:26.:29:31.

-- first brought to my attention by a late constituent from iVillage,

:29:32.:29:37.

and I should also declare interest, my home is also supplied with.. And

:29:38.:29:46.

my wife actively seeks out syndicates where they are. This is a

:29:47.:29:53.

really important subject, it is always nice to speak on these

:29:54.:29:59.

subjects, whenever they are in general debate. In my area, an

:30:00.:30:04.

elderly people and sold -- syndicates came together, the

:30:05.:30:08.

combined together, they delhvered together at the same time, `nd as

:30:09.:30:18.

the Minister that we should put more focus on those in our community who

:30:19.:30:24.

are that age? People are living longer, there is more emphasis on

:30:25.:30:29.

that. I very much agree with the gentleman for making a point, and I

:30:30.:30:33.

think you would recognise as well that sometimes overly peopld, and

:30:34.:30:39.

disadvantaged groups in our society are looking for somebody else to

:30:40.:30:47.

give benefits to. If I can just go back to my constituent, and she got

:30:48.:30:53.

in contact with me, some ye`rs ago now, and she was seeking support,

:30:54.:31:02.

and my support, and applying for something from the Department of

:31:03.:31:07.

Energy, to set up a fuel cltb. The previous administration, thdre was a

:31:08.:31:12.

time when I think a small p`rt of money was available for people to

:31:13.:31:16.

apply, so it was a competithon for press practiced to be encouraged

:31:17.:31:19.

around the country. I would ask the Minister about that later. But with

:31:20.:31:24.

her still with us, I know she would be greatly impressed by the work of

:31:25.:31:31.

club cosy, and my constituency, funded over an 18 month perhod by

:31:32.:31:41.

the Welsh governments copy `nd, one by... Which is brought together all

:31:42.:31:47.

of the fuel clubs throughout the county. And it was an attempt to

:31:48.:31:54.

tackle the issue of fuel poverty through the fuel poverty for him in

:31:55.:31:59.

my constituency, that the club cosy project came about. Representatives

:32:00.:32:03.

from the County Council, thd local health Board, housing assochations,

:32:04.:32:11.

and a credit union, and particularly the only people, and others, in the

:32:12.:32:17.

form began to explore the work done by a royal clubs in the county,

:32:18.:32:20.

explore the benefits of bulk viewpoint -- purchases, and

:32:21.:32:24.

overcoming the problems of linimum purchase ordering. When all low

:32:25.:32:33.

income, the purchasing issud is a big one. It doesn't make it

:32:34.:32:35.

difficult for many people to purchase that minimum. Therd is a

:32:36.:32:42.

large amount of reports, and concerns of constituents filling

:32:43.:32:46.

their own containers, garagds, filling tanks in their yards, or

:32:47.:32:50.

their gardens, and that shotld be avoided at all costs. Beford the

:32:51.:32:55.

club cosy project, the numbdr of coordinators was very small, it was

:32:56.:32:59.

no coordination between the clubs covering different areas of the

:33:00.:33:02.

county, to maximise and co-ordinate the purchase power, but since the

:33:03.:33:06.

project took place, we have seen the number of coordinators incrdase

:33:07.:33:10.

coverage improve, and to cover the entire county, improved

:33:11.:33:14.

coordination, more than doubling the number of syndicate members, and

:33:15.:33:18.

critically, raising awareness that there is a challenge to household

:33:19.:33:23.

budgets, there are alternathves that can be pursued. As well as this the

:33:24.:33:27.

project has included specifhc work, with coordinators, targeting and

:33:28.:33:34.

identifying fuel problems. Coming out into the community, rather than

:33:35.:33:43.

being asked, targeting houshng associations, and working

:33:44.:33:46.

specifically with the most vulnerable households. The

:33:47.:33:49.

experience from club cosy, `nd the club cosy project has been to

:33:50.:33:56.

develop a document to the Mhnister, explaining how sustainable lodels

:33:57.:33:58.

for fuel syndicates can be established, which I believd...

:33:59.:34:07.

There are many fantastic schemes, thousands of skins, across the

:34:08.:34:11.

country, and I reflect on one that my Honorable friend mentiondd to me.

:34:12.:34:18.

The thinking fuel project, `nd his constituency, and again, providing

:34:19.:34:22.

similar help to local communities to prove coordination, lower costs to

:34:23.:34:28.

help decrease the number of people living in fuel poverty. In one

:34:29.:34:32.

second -- syndicate, there have been a recorded savings of anythhng from

:34:33.:34:41.

26 -?76, and 10% saving, ovdr a two-month period, making a

:34:42.:34:45.

substantial difference to m`ny households. In many cases, this is

:34:46.:34:51.

how people who have been on long-term arrangements with fuel

:34:52.:34:55.

supplies, encouraging them to reviews at their current

:34:56.:34:57.

arrangements, often finding that they have been paying subst`ntially

:34:58.:35:01.

higher -- higher than they should've been. And, there are other

:35:02.:35:05.

benefits, they come from syndicates. A syndicate of just five hotseholds

:35:06.:35:09.

in one hamlet can reduce thd number of tanks travelling to deliver from

:35:10.:35:16.

five to one. I think it is ` useful statistic. We can see benefhts to

:35:17.:35:26.

the local economy, through the uptick in buying clubs, in various

:35:27.:35:36.

villages. Encouraging and enhancing them as community hubs, syndicates

:35:37.:35:44.

have been added to values -, valuable services in the colmunity,

:35:45.:35:52.

while one-time charge per order is reduced in the community... That

:35:53.:35:56.

project funding has now comd to an end, and the legacy is firm, it is

:35:57.:36:02.

rooted, and that the double continue to prosper in the future. I know the

:36:03.:36:08.

principle behind work syndicates, it is something we can all endorse

:36:09.:36:14.

Name of collective action on behalf of customers, realising economies

:36:15.:36:19.

and bringing substantial to people through lower bills. Communhties

:36:20.:36:23.

spirited individuals, working in isolated communities, and in the

:36:24.:36:28.

club cosy, working closely with fuel distributors, as well. This is an

:36:29.:36:33.

issue which I think has the potential to affect huge nulbers of

:36:34.:36:38.

people, through our country. I want to use this opportunity to celebrate

:36:39.:36:45.

a scheme in my constituency, and the expectation that others will look

:36:46.:36:50.

closely at what is being done, and follow in the footsteps. As I

:36:51.:36:57.

mentioned earlier, the Coalhtion government, there was a movdment to

:36:58.:37:02.

push Royal clubs onto the gdnder and some minimal funding was a lade

:37:03.:37:06.

available by that. That work is continuing, and I think it hs

:37:07.:37:12.

important. Yet, the support guys need to continue. Because, some of

:37:13.:37:16.

the bigger unanswered questhons are still there. The connecting

:37:17.:37:21.

communities to the gas network may indicate the need for oil clubs May

:37:22.:37:29.

be the issue about tracking, -- tracking. It is not allow for pack

:37:30.:37:37.

rat -- gas in rural areas, `nd the government quite rightly talks about

:37:38.:37:41.

switching, and a lot of emphasis has been put on switching, switching

:37:42.:37:48.

within certain specific forls of energy. But we have not got the

:37:49.:37:51.

choices in many rural areas, and that is proposed -- present a

:37:52.:37:57.

problem, on the Welsh level, and in communities are struggling to cope

:37:58.:38:00.

with bills. Ministers are qtite rightly talking about the ilportance

:38:01.:38:07.

of ensuring energy providers within one source of energy. But those

:38:08.:38:11.

choices are not there for all. I also want to commend the work for

:38:12.:38:17.

the third secretary organiz`tions, there are well-equipped, not while

:38:18.:38:21.

resource, well-equipped to `dvance this cause, and the citizens advice

:38:22.:38:26.

Bureau in Cardiff, my consthtuency, had made a very real differdnce on

:38:27.:38:33.

needing to switch. That is important, and the third sector

:38:34.:38:38.

organization, I believe, and also to support in advancing that. There

:38:39.:38:46.

are, I guess, negotiators, good negotiators, and that negothators.

:38:47.:38:49.

There'll be some of our fellow citizens were good, and argte the

:38:50.:38:53.

case that they are providing the information to argue the choices...

:38:54.:39:02.

For a better tariff. Or a bdtter way, what better way of seeking a

:39:03.:39:09.

cheap war -- cheaper fuel t`riff? One of the benefits of this. But,

:39:10.:39:14.

from speaking to some of thd syndicate coordinators, I h`ve

:39:15.:39:19.

spoken to, wonder she keeps cropping up. And it is the issue of funding.

:39:20.:39:25.

Funding is available for those attempting to save energy, `nd to

:39:26.:39:30.

their homes warm, make energy savings on a broader initiative but

:39:31.:39:35.

many syndicates find it difficult to access the most basic core funding.

:39:36.:39:40.

The benefit of having a grotp of individuals taking the lead on this

:39:41.:39:44.

issue, cannot be overstated, and funding therefore is import`nt, and

:39:45.:39:49.

my request to the Minister hs that first, we need to look into the

:39:50.:39:55.

continued look at ways to practice this. To make sure that oil

:39:56.:40:01.

syndicates to apply for the support, and those that choose which projects

:40:02.:40:05.

to fund, if funding is available, will be for delete aware of the

:40:06.:40:10.

needs of rural communities. As well, the point I just missed out then, I

:40:11.:40:15.

think it is important, and `gain, it relates to the point from the

:40:16.:40:19.

Honorable member mentioned, in terms of elderly people, a lot of the

:40:20.:40:24.

switch agenda is advanced through the Internet, e-mails, and H have to

:40:25.:40:30.

say that any debate... Therd are limitations in broadband roll-out as

:40:31.:40:34.

we know. There's also demographic divide, elderly people are less

:40:35.:40:40.

confident, and that points to the benefits of syndicates, people doing

:40:41.:40:44.

the work for them. So, in short can the Minister detail what action she

:40:45.:40:49.

can promise to help encourage and support the uptake of the mxstic

:40:50.:40:54.

syndicates, more widely? I want to stand, because I am mindful of time,

:40:55.:41:02.

as we waited for the adjournment of this debate to take place, H just

:41:03.:41:05.

want to give one example of one constituent of mine who has

:41:06.:41:15.

benefited from club cosy. Club close club cosy coach Dominic an `rea

:41:16.:41:21.

where there is a high risk of fuel poverty, living in a cold and drafty

:41:22.:41:29.

house, and the boiler which was used -- used excessive amounts of oil,

:41:30.:41:33.

with high bills paying for oil, it was a real worry. Eating up a huge

:41:34.:41:40.

amount of her limited budget. Tailored advice, was given on draft

:41:41.:41:45.

proofing, joining a syndicate, and applying for a credit union fuel

:41:46.:41:50.

account. The response from the constituent, has been gratitude and

:41:51.:41:53.

she became so interested in the concept of the fields and again I

:41:54.:41:56.

get, that she started one on their own, with her name. She was included

:41:57.:42:06.

in network activities, and the club has climbed on from strength to

:42:07.:42:11.

strength. Many of her neighbours are benefiting from the initiathve that

:42:12.:42:17.

she took. Yet again, one very good example of an excellent comlunity

:42:18.:42:22.

project making the difference for a lot of people in my constittency. I

:42:23.:42:28.

think what started as maybe a lofty title of the debate, development of

:42:29.:42:31.

domestic oil syndicate, I hope that I have proved that will be something

:42:32.:42:36.

of great significance to a great number of people, and my

:42:37.:42:41.

constituency and elsewhere, and I very much combatant -- commdnd their

:42:42.:42:44.

work to minister, who I is supportive.

:42:45.:42:49.

Thank you. I congratulate the Honorable member, and I think this

:42:50.:42:56.

is a very important today, `nd I'm very interested to hear abott club

:42:57.:43:00.

cosy, and the initiatives in his constituency, and I can certainly

:43:01.:43:04.

tell them that since I'm also.. I also participate in and also --

:43:05.:43:10.

binary, which is a personal benefit to me. This is a welcome opportunity

:43:11.:43:14.

to discuss oil purchasing syndicates. Let me start by saying

:43:15.:43:18.

that my priority is keeping all energy bills low, for hard-working

:43:19.:43:23.

families, and businesses. As well as being the lights on and movhng

:43:24.:43:28.

towards a green energy future. Heating oil is a small but

:43:29.:43:32.

significant part of the energy sector, and there are about 1.5

:43:33.:43:37.

billion -- million households depending on it to heat thehr homes

:43:38.:43:40.

and. These are among the 4 lillion not connected to the gas grhd in the

:43:41.:43:47.

UK. The office of fair tradhng noted in 2011 that there is a large

:43:48.:43:50.

variation in this issue between the formations of the UK, 80% of homes

:43:51.:43:56.

in Northern Ireland are off gas grid, compared to 12% in England,

:43:57.:44:03.

21% in Scotland, and 19% in Wales. Proportionately more of gas grid

:44:04.:44:09.

households are single occup`ncy and or house a person over the `ge of

:44:10.:44:12.

60. Said the Honorable gentleman is right to point out that this can be

:44:13.:44:16.

elderly people, who are also amongst the fewer poor. Last year, nearly 4

:44:17.:44:20.

billion L of heating oil, which is primarily used for heating, was

:44:21.:44:26.

delivered into the market. @s you said, heating oil is brought to

:44:27.:44:29.

consumers local distributor company, the refiners and importers. Some

:44:30.:44:34.

distributors have their own storage when they keep a few day's supply.

:44:35.:44:42.

Be delivered directly to thdir customers. The price they charge is

:44:43.:44:46.

dependent on how much they had to pay for the oil, and the volume

:44:47.:44:49.

required, and the cost of the delivery. Analysis suggests that on

:44:50.:44:57.

average, crude prices changd into Europe or -- prices in a month. At

:44:58.:45:01.

times, the wholesale price lay also be a cause of local supply `nd

:45:02.:45:08.

demand issues. At moment, the average cost of heating oil is 4.5

:45:09.:45:17.

pence, down since September 14 - September 2014. We expect them to

:45:18.:45:22.

continue to pass future oil price falls, whatever they may be,

:45:23.:45:26.

bringing benefits to consumdrs, and to the wider economy. I will give

:45:27.:45:35.

way. I'm curious to know wh`t will the Minister be doing to focus

:45:36.:45:41.

attention upon those who ard in fuel poverty. There are many who are

:45:42.:45:48.

elderly, and those on benefhts, and ten week tied that? The Honorable

:45:49.:45:57.

member has raised this issud and the number of debate, and I completely

:45:58.:46:01.

agree with them. Fuel poverty is absolutely the key of our energy

:46:02.:46:04.

support. So everything, that we do, in terms of support for fundral of

:46:05.:46:12.

energy efficiency, it will be directed in fuel poverty, btt coming

:46:13.:46:16.

back to this, particular subject, we are very keen to see people joining

:46:17.:46:21.

an ordinal -- oil buying group, because they can benefit from

:46:22.:46:25.

reduced prices, the ability to negotiate for large volumes, which

:46:26.:46:28.

means cheaper oil for all of those in the group. Now, citizens advice,

:46:29.:46:34.

and the Federation of petroleum suppliers, have all produced

:46:35.:46:38.

guidance on best practice pdrforming an operating oil buying clubs. There

:46:39.:46:44.

are 38 rural community councils in England. They generally are based on

:46:45.:46:51.

the county level, and have ` strong history of leading supporting and

:46:52.:46:54.

enabling community initiatives. They help them help themselves. This

:46:55.:47:00.

includes running oil buying clubs. Citizens advice has produced

:47:01.:47:03.

guidance for consumers to experience difficulties with their heating oil

:47:04.:47:06.

supplies, and setting out what to they're struggling with thehr bills.

:47:07.:47:11.

They also have a website se`rch function to find oil clubs, although

:47:12.:47:14.

it should be noted that this is not necessarily a comprehensive list.

:47:15.:47:21.

The sector trade Association, has produced separate guidance on buying

:47:22.:47:26.

groups. And publish a mandatory code of practice for its members, and a

:47:27.:47:30.

customer charter to engage with consumers on a fair and consistent

:47:31.:47:35.

basis, and to implement best practice to raise standards. The

:47:36.:47:40.

honourable gentleman raised the work under the last Coalition government

:47:41.:47:43.

on cheaper energy together, where government-funded three oil buying

:47:44.:47:48.

clubs, which led to significant and decent amount of lessons le`rned,

:47:49.:47:52.

for new clubs to be able to form, and meat to the benefit of

:47:53.:47:57.

consumers. Just specificallx on managing costs, some supplids do

:47:58.:48:01.

offer the means of spreading costs such as providing the option of

:48:02.:48:04.

paying by monthly direct debit, with a fixed-rate payment scheme. This

:48:05.:48:08.

has the advantage of allowing customers to know how much they will

:48:09.:48:12.

be paying for oil, over the coming years, and to budget accordhngly.

:48:13.:48:17.

Some suppliers also offer a top up scheme, and customers tanks are

:48:18.:48:23.

filled as required, and through the system, suppliers are autom`tically

:48:24.:48:27.

informed, when a tank requires filling. As well as reducing the

:48:28.:48:31.

risk of customers running ott of oil, this has the advantage of

:48:32.:48:35.

providing alerts for record jobs in level, such as those sadly

:48:36.:48:37.

occasionally caused by theft or leakage. And most companies will

:48:38.:48:42.

been of course inform custolers of the price, prior to filling up the

:48:43.:48:46.

tank. Although in their inf`ncy pay-as-you-go schemes linked with

:48:47.:48:50.

credit unions, seem to have real potential for supporting vulnerable

:48:51.:48:56.

consumers, and the schemes provide ensure that when customers need fuel

:48:57.:48:59.

they're able to purchase it. Finally, I would like to stress that

:49:00.:49:04.

it is always wise, as the Fdderation of petroleum and surprise advises,

:49:05.:49:09.

that people check their fuel price, against other retailers on ` regular

:49:10.:49:14.

basis. And also ask their stppliers to confirm price prior to ddlivery.

:49:15.:49:19.

The government is fully comlitted to reducing energy bills, and dnergy of

:49:20.:49:23.

the century is a key part of this. The spending review announcdd our

:49:24.:49:30.

intentions for a long focusdd, success... Which will run until

:49:31.:49:38.

2021, 2022, with a maximum spending cap of ?40 million per annul, rising

:49:39.:49:43.

with inflation. Decibel support the installation of 1 million homes over

:49:44.:49:46.

the course of this pilot. Officials are engaging the stakeholders to

:49:47.:49:50.

design the successor to ego, and we will consult on these proposals next

:49:51.:49:54.

year. We are also committed to helping people move away from a

:49:55.:49:58.

dependence on fossil fuels. Said the renewable heating sensitive is the

:49:59.:50:03.

world's first long-term fin`ncial support programme, for bend`ble

:50:04.:50:07.

heat. It provides financial incentives to install renew`ble

:50:08.:50:10.

heating, and place of fossil fuels. This scheme is designed to bridge

:50:11.:50:20.

the gap between the cost of fossil, and renewable heat alternathves

:50:21.:50:21.

financial support for owners of participating installation. Has 31st

:50:22.:50:29.

October three... Had been accredited onto the skin, and over 481

:50:30.:50:33.

gigawatts of heat has been generated, and paid for, and in

:50:34.:50:39.

response to the Honorable mdmber who braces the point about fuel poverty,

:50:40.:50:45.

I want to assure him and thd Honorable member that my Honorable

:50:46.:50:49.

-- priority is keeping bills low, for families and businesses having

:50:50.:50:53.

while meeting the climate in fuel poverty goals, and continuing to

:50:54.:50:57.

keep the lights on. I'd also like to draw attention to my Honorable

:50:58.:51:03.

friend, the member, who used to chair the deal gas grid grotp, and

:51:04.:51:07.

raised the issue in governmdnt, and I do urge all members who are

:51:08.:51:12.

interested in this subject to join that group, and I am always

:51:13.:51:15.

interested in hearing new ideas on how we can better support those who

:51:16.:51:21.

are off gas grid. One Beta dnergy bills can be kept low is through

:51:22.:51:25.

individuals joining domestic oil syndicates, and I mentioned that, of

:51:26.:51:32.

how successful initiatives such as this can be, and I certainlx urge

:51:33.:51:37.

all consumers who are members of such initiatives to buy early,

:51:38.:51:40.

particularly with winter approaching. I will give wax. I m

:51:41.:51:49.

grateful to her for giving way. And I like her enthusiasm. Can H just

:51:50.:52:01.

ask her to take away the reflection of that scheme, and that funding for

:52:02.:52:06.

those three syndicates, and a lot of work in publicizing the work of

:52:07.:52:10.

syndicates, that we are relxing on the third sector, something which

:52:11.:52:19.

could really cap to late people and -- captcha late. I think it would go

:52:20.:52:22.

a long way. I think it would go a long way. Of course, I will

:52:23.:52:26.

certainly take that away saxs, but I can tell them that only recdntly we

:52:27.:52:33.

did have a small campaign in social media, and in the general mddia to

:52:34.:52:38.

try and encourage those who are part of oil buying syndicates, or those

:52:39.:52:41.

who are not to buy early in preparation for the winter `nd try

:52:42.:52:46.

and grab prices while they `re relatively low. I do hope that this

:52:47.:52:49.

debate has been helpful to the honourable gentleman, and two other

:52:50.:52:53.

members who have contributed. I sincerely congratulate him on

:52:54.:52:55.

raising this important debate. Thank you. The question is that this House

:52:56.:53:04.

do now adjourn. As many as `re of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:53:05.:53:10.

contrary, "no". The ayes have it. Order! Order!

:53:11.:53:16.

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