Browse content similar to 07/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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point of order from the honourable gentleman. Statement, the Sdcretary | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
of State, for the environment and rural affairs. With permisshon, Mr | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the impact of | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
flooding in the North of England. As the House will know, this wdekend | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
has brought some enormously difficult and extreme weathdr | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
conditions. I would like to begin by expressing my deepest sympathy for | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
all of those who have been `ffected. I would also like to commend the | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
emergency responders, volunteers, and the environment agency who have | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
been working tirelessly throughout the weekend, often in horrific | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
conditions. People have comd from all over the country as far as South | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
Wales, Lincolnshire, and other sectors to build. I'm sure the House | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
will join with me in paying tribute to their work. And the generous | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
community spirit of those who have been offering food, transport and | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
beds to neighbours. Over thd course of Friday, the visa before, it | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
became clear that the storm would bring an exceptionally high rainfall | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
across the UK -- force of the summer. People were mobilisdd, | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
leaving temporary defenses `nd pumps to northwest England through Friday. | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
On Saturday morning it becale clear which counties would be imp`cted and | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
that we would see very high levels of rainfall that evening. Therefore | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
the government mobilised a full national emergency response copy at | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
midday on Saturday, I held ` cross departmental meeting to assdss the | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
impact shortly followed by the mobilised nation that 200 mhlitary | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
personnel and supporting assets including making available `n | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
helicopter. Local commanders were able to call upon more than 50 by | :01:51. | :01:57. | |
Bob -- high-volume pumps, as well as tactical advisors and rescudrs from | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
across the UK. Adding to ovdr 2 0 emergency responders alreadx on the | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
ground. My honourable friend the floods Minister, travelled to | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
Cumbria on Saturday to ensure the emergency responders on the ground | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
without all that they need. He has remained in the Northwest route On | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
Saturday night we saw an unprecedented amount of rainfall. | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
More than a month's Lane from one-day. During Saturday night, | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
Maine rivers all across country exceeded the highest levels ever | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
recorded. There is a mark on the bridge showing the flood level in | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
1853, 2005 flood was hired hn 1 53, which was the highest on record | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
until then. This blood was half a metre higher again. It was .6 of a | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
metre higher... .7 of a metre higher in Kassig and .3 of a metre higher | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
in Apple B. Although over 8000 properties were protected bx our | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
flood defenses, by Sunday morning over 3500 properties have floated | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
across the country. With thd majority in Cumbria. And Carlyle, | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
over 2000 properties flooded soppy over 600 flooded in both Kendall and | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
tested, with over 200 and Appleby. Flooding was also seen in | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
Northumberland. 50,000, 5000 properties lost power in Lancaster, | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
following the flooding of the electricity station. Roads were | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
closed across the Northwest and bridges damaged. A main lind was | :03:33. | :03:41. | |
suspended. Tragically, I can also confirm to the House that there were | :03:42. | :03:43. | |
a number of weather-related fatalities. With instance c`used or | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
exacerbated by flooding or poor weather. I am sure the Housd would | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
want to join with me to express our deepest sympathies to their families | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
and friends. It is a tragic reminder of how dangerous these condhtions | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
can be. On Sunday morning, H chaired a cross government cobra medting to | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
ensure the emergency responders on the ground had all the resotrces | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
they needed and to address hmmediate issues including the threat to the | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
power supply in Lancaster and Carlisle. I spoke with comm`nders in | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
the worst affected areas during the day to ensure they had suffhcient | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
national resources to delivdr their emergency plans. The Prime Linister | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
chaired a further cobra meeting this morning and is visiting the affected | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
areas today. I am pleased to confirm to the House that progress hs being | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
made on recovering some of the impacts copy the number of homes | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
affected by power outages h`s been reduced to less than 5000, following | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
restoration power in Lancaster substation. Electricity cophes are | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
working around the clock to restore power as soon as possible. ,- | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
alleges the companies. Transport remains disrupted across much of the | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
area and many roads remained close the Mac closed. The mainlind remains | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
suspended to Scotland and sdrvices are unlikely to be restored until | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
Wednesday at the earliest. The government will continue to ensure | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
that all resources are made available to support recovery from | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
his flooding. Cover will continue to meet daily to oversee recovdry | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
efforts and I will be travelling to Cumbria and Lancaster to continue to | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
ensure we are doing all we can to help all those affected -- cobra | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
will be meeting. I am pleasdd to confirm to the House, that ly | :05:36. | :05:44. | |
colleague will be enabling the schemes of local authorities of | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
those affected by floods. Some cost will be met by the government. We | :05:50. | :05:51. | |
are announcing further support schemes over the coming days. Since | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
2009, we have invested ?45 lillion in new defenses in Cumbria, but we | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
will need to learn lessons `nd reflect on what we can learn from | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
this extreme weather. In thd last Parliament, there was a rill terms | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
increase in investment in flood defenses and in this Parlialent | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
there will be another incre`se in spending. We are investing to 3p in | :06:16. | :06:24. | |
1500 schemes throughout the country -- ?3 billion. Is also confhrmed | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
that we are protecting flood maintenance spending throughout this | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
Parliament as well as capit`l spending. Mr Speaker, I am sure the | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
whole house would join me in expressing our sincere symp`thy to | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
those who have been affected by this weekend's extreme weather | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
conditions. I can assure thd House that the government will continue to | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
do everything it can to support those affected. I commend the | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
statement to be housed. Hear, hear! Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank the | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
Secretary of State for her statement. I had to smoke and spoken | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
to my honourable friend -- H had this morning spoken... To gdt an | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
update on what's happening hn their constituencies, understanding they | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
cannot be here this afternoon as they are with their constittents. I | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
appreciate that the shadow linister for flooding is quite rightly in his | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
constituency too. RPAS are with all of the amenities and Cumbri` and | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
Lancaster, once again being devastated by flooding. And | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
tragically announcing that ` number of people have lost their lhves Our | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
deepest sympathy and condoldnces. I picture Butte to be emergency | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
services and the Army who h`ve once again responded superbly. The | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
immediate priority has to bd help for all those who have been forced | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
to evacuate their homes and businesses and to make sure that | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
everyone is safe, warm and well Communities like those in Ctmbria | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
have been getting used to r`llying around and helping those who need | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
shelter, food and clothing while they contemplate the state of their | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
homes. They have been magnificent this time too. They are defhnitely | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
worried that further rain is predicted for tomorrow and H hope | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
that emergency response of which the environment secretary spoke is | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
geared up to respond to that too. With the last major floods of | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
2013-14, the diamonds did ddclare that money is no object in this | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
relief effort. -- the Prime Minister declared. Business owners rdceived | :08:23. | :08:30. | |
support from the government. I was pleased to hear the Prime mhnister | :08:31. | :08:32. | |
said today that we must makd sure that everything is done to help this | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
vital phase of dealing with the floods, but it is not enough for the | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
Prime Minister and environmdnt Secretary to place to deal with the | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
devastation and damage causdd. Need a commitment from them also to do | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
all they can to prevent this from happening again. Just six ydars | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
ago, Cumbria was hit by unprecedented flooding soppx | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
described as a once-in-a-lifetime or once in a century event. But, Mr | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
Speaker, it has already happened again and this time as the | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
environment Secretary said, it is even worse. The environment | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
Secretary's predisaster was someone who is prepared to acknowledge the | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
risks proposed by climate change. Does he accept that extreme weather | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
events... Need to be adapted to accordingly. We will be negotiating | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
what we hope is that in stored agreement on climate change right | :09:27. | :09:28. | |
now. Domestically this government has repeatedly abandoned me`sures to | :09:29. | :09:36. | |
reduce the UK's carbon emissions. When she travels to Northwest today | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
I help the environment Secrdtary will see that this cannot continue. | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
Until the 2013-14 Winter floods in the Southwest, defence was | :09:47. | :09:56. | |
downgraded from a 13. Despite a represented increased risk to the UK | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
-- downgraded from a priority. In one year along, and the Coalition/ | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
fly spending by more than ?000 million. Will be secretary of state | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
except that this left UK unprepared for extreme weather events? I know | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
capital expenditure has been announced and is protected, but can | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
they not tell us about resotrce funding for defence from 2006-1 to | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
2019-20 until someone next xear .. I will be grateful if she can | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
elaborate on that. Will be secretary of state heed warnings from experts | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
that would need year on year investment of flood defenses to meet | :10:37. | :10:48. | |
the increasing threat it poses. ... Can she honestly reassure the | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
community affected by floodhng that the government is doing enotgh? | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
After the last floods in Culbria, insurance pay-outs to months and in | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
some cases years. Flooding hs not due to become operational until next | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
year so can the Secretary of State of data is on the status of the | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
answers companies since the weekend. Will have sold and businessds be | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
paid properly and in full? Local people who are ready finding it | :11:19. | :11:20. | |
impossible to beat the cost of insurance premiums, what should she | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
offer people to ensure them that their insurance payments will | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
increase even further? Mr Speaker, the environment Secretary spoke of | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
the need for a cross departlental approach over those issues such as | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
road closures, school closures, the role of hospitals... And thd point | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
has been made by my colleagtes that it would be absolute folly to | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
downgrade the West Cumberland Hospital and I, given that the | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
hospital in Carlisle was perishable because of the sheer distance that | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
would have to be travelled. It wasn't geared up to deal with the | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
defence this time around. I am more than happy to confirm to her that we | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
want to see a cross party approach to this as well, working with the | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
communities and the governmdnt departments to try to ensurd that | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
the people in Cumbria and Lancaster, wherever possibld, back | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
home are safe and well with a roof over their head and is dry `s | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
possible before Christmas strikes. I offer my support for that. Hear | :12:23. | :12:23. | |
hear! Mr Speaker, I can assure thd | :12:24. | :12:33. | |
honourable lady that we havd an absolute focus on making sure that | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
the commanders on the ground have every support they need in order to | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
make sure people are safe, that homes are protected, but also aid in | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
recovery efforts. We have sden that in areas like restoring powdr supply | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
I'm also road and transport systems. We are vigilant about the ftture | :12:54. | :12:55. | |
weather Outlook. Cover will be meeting on a daily basis and making | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
sure we have all those forecast -- cobra will be meeting. And we are | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
putting those offices where they need to be. We are constantly | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
vigilant on that at all timds copied the recovery effort and response | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
that we started on Friday on making sure those resources were in place | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
in Cumbria, and we can do what we can by mobilising resources like the | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
Army to make sure that as mtch support was on the ground where it | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
was needed. We have seen an unprecedented weather event. The | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
honourable lady referred to previous party in Cumbria -- flooding. This | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
was more extreme I have a mdtre in some of the key towns and chties in | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
Cumbria of course. It is devastating for those people were previously | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
affected by flooding, who bdlieved that things would be better copy | :13:45. | :13:53. | |
they have been affected agahn and my huge sympathy goes to be local | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
residents and I hope to meet them later today and tomorrow. The | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
honourable lady, is absolutdly right about the extreme weather p`tterns | :14:02. | :14:03. | |
we are seeing. As we say, it is consistent with the trends we are | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
seeing in terms of climate change. Climate change is factored hn to all | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
the modelling work the environment agency does, but clearly in the | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
light of this extreme weathdr, we will have to look at that modelling | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
and make sure it is fit for purpose for future decisions. We constantly | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
review the way we look at, the way we invest in flood defenses. My view | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
is that it is really import`nt that we remain fair to people right | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
across the country and the people of Cumbria. Understand five thdse | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
decisions are being made -- understand why the decisions are | :14:42. | :14:43. | |
being made and get proper protection. If I could turn to flood | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
defence spending, in terms of capital spending over the l`st | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
Parliament we spent ?1.7 billion on capital spending for floods. That | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
was a really terms increase on what we spend between 2005-2010. Where | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
?1.5 billion we spent. On the next six-year programme is to put ?3 | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
billion, which represents a return to increase. It is the first time a | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
government has ever laid out a six-year programme. The whole point | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
is that we don't have lumpy bits of flood spending him and actu`lly we | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
commit to a long-term progr`mme which helps to check the cotntry | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
better. Including the impact of climate change, that is fordcast to | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
reduce flood risk by 5%. Ovdr the next six years. In terms of a | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
maintenance budget, which the honourable lady asked about, we | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
spent 1.7 million, sorry ?171 million last your own flood | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
maintenance and in the Autuln Statement he Chancellor confirmed | :15:41. | :15:42. | |
that that will be protected in real terms. For the duration of this | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
Parliament. She also asked `bout the health that people are going to get | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
in terms of insurance and stpport schemes -- the help. What I am going | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
to see him and my colleague asking to see, is that those support | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
schemes are fixable -- is kden to see. And simple to operate some | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
muscle will be working on that over the coming days. Might friend, the | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
community secretary, will bd hosting a discussing to make sure stpport is | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
provided. These issues are of course all very important, but the media | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
prior to has to be on the rdscue and response effort to make surd that we | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
are protecting lives and attacking families. Is such a terribld time of | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
year, just before Christmas, for people to be out of their homes Our | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
absolute priority as a government is making sure that we restore power, | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
supplies to homes and that we restore those transport systems and | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
protect lives. Thank you. Hdar, hear! | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
Lots of my constituency havd been affected by the floods that have | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
brought so much damage in the Northwest. I would like to reinforce | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
the point... Insurance clails should be met speedily nod and six or nine | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
months' time. People need them now not in six or nine months' time | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
Also, would she make absolutely clear to insurance companies that | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
they will be looked at very carefully if they start to withdraw | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
coverage from people who have now benefited by these floods -, been | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
affected by these floods? Following the devastation that they h`ve just | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
had. I think my honourable friend makes a good point. We will be | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
working with insurance comp`nies to make sure that people receive rubber | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
payments and we can get people back into their homes as soon as possible | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
-- proper payments. Let me thank the Secretary of State for his statement | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
this afternoon. My colleagud shares condolences for any families that | :17:49. | :17:50. | |
have been affected over the course of the weekend. Also to say that... | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
My colleagues would be here speaking on behalf of the SNP, but hd is in | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
his constituency assisting with what the maxi work there. We deal the Mac | :18:01. | :18:08. | |
feel for the devastation, btt also the clean-up in Scotland as well. In | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
some of the worst flooding that the region has seen. It is the fact that | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
700 people were evacuated from their homes and hundreds of houses and | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
businesses have experienced flood damage. Also across other p`rts of | :18:21. | :18:28. | |
Scotland, experience the worst damage in 12 years. Mr Speaker, I | :18:29. | :18:39. | |
knows the Mac note that scidntist were sitting always shy awax from | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
any event that point to clilate change, but they also point to the | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
fact that warmer air can hold more moisture. That means that rhsing | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
temperatures are related to storms that may job more rain and ` more | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
intense bursts. If I may, in 20 9 the Scottish Parliament in | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
infamously passed a climate change legislation, using 1990 as ` | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
baseline. The Scottish Parlhament committed itself to reducing | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
greenhouse gas emissions by at least 42% by 2020 and at least 80$ by | :19:11. | :19:18. | |
2050. In Scotland, we are doing what we can for renewable energy. It is a | :19:19. | :19:20. | |
pity that this government is removing support. I wonder hf I can | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
ask the Secretary of State hf she will liaise with her colleagues to | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
revisit this. We need to do more to protect. There is potential for | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
extreme weather systems likd this to continue in the UK. We are lucky in | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
the UK that we have the resources to help as much as we can't and | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
preparing for these extreme weather systems and helping communities and | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
aftermath. I am grateful for the comments in that regard. However | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
across the world, small and poorer countries will be far worse hit by | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
the effects of climate change. Today the Scottish Government announced it | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
will double its climate Justice fund by placing a further ?12 million | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
from developing countries to lessen the impact of climate changd -- for | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
developing countries. What hs the UK government doing to assist the | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
situation? I would like to dxpress my sympathy for those peopld | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
affected in Scotland. I know we are working very closely with the | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
Scottish government on our response. In terms of what we are | :20:23. | :20:24. | |
going on climate change, my honourable friend, the clim`te | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
change secretary, is currently in Paris working to secure a good | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
international deal. So we c`n do with this on an internation`l level. | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
Of course we have a very cldar carbon budget system in place here | :20:37. | :20:37. | |
in the UK. Thank you Mr Speaker. I would like | :20:38. | :20:48. | |
to begin by painter be to mx local environment team and making sure and | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
Cumbria who were working all weekend, keeping me up to d`te. My | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
residence are concerned that in less than two years the flood in the Mac | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
and the Mac flooding... Will move away from the environmental | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
agency... Most of this water is why. In my honourable friend tell me what | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
the government is doing to protect that? I think my honourable friend | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
for her question and can I `gree with her about painter but to be | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
fantastic emergency service and environment agency staff who have | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
been working around the clock to support people in the area was make | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
the answer is in terms of otr six year programme, it will mean that an | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
additional 420,000 acres of farmland will be protected. In this specific | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
case of the flooding we've seen in the north over the weekend, we will | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
be looking at what more can be done to help farmers. Over the wdekend | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
and this morning I have been in contact with my honourable friend, | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
the Member for working, and to whom remains in her constituency. She has | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
given me thoughts on the situation in that part of Cumbria. Shd is I | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
understand, extremely grateful for the response of the emergency | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
services. Mr Speaker, I unddrstand that there is concern that there is | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
an unintended consequence of reductions in front line services | :22:20. | :22:21. | |
but also in cuts to local authorities in the environmdnt | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
agency. Those emergency responses may not be possible in the future. | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
With the government please give some thought as to whether, by cttting | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
local authorities and the environment budgets, that that might | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
be damaging to the ability to respond to these events and the | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
future? I think the responsd effort we have seen over the weekend and | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
the preparations put in place by the environment agency, the emergency | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
services, and our Army personnel who have been fantastic. They h`ve been | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
working their socks off on the ground to protect people. I think we | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
are all very grateful for what they have done. My role is to make sure | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
that we are coordinating those efforts and giving the local teams | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
all the support they need. On Saturday and Sunday as the to the | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
command to ask if they needdd any additional support and resotrces | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
copy all those resources have been made available. Of course wd will | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
continue to monitor the sittation to make sure those resources are | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
available on the ground. Magic is opportunity to put on record my | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
thanks to emergency services -- may I take this opportunity. And the | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
Secretary of State assure md that she will continue to work whth | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
farmers in my constituency to ensure that the devastation that some of | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
them have suffered over recdnt days will be looked at with some | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
sympathy? Hear, hear! I agree with my honourable friend. | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
As well as making sure that farmland is protected as part of our six year | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
flood defence programme. We will also be looking at specific impact | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
on farmers. My colleague, the farming minister will be dohng work | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
on that. This morning I met with businesses in York who were over | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
four metres underwater. The 52nd flooding they have had withhn a | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
month. -- and this is the sdcond flooding. Can the Day a be `ssured | :24:12. | :24:19. | |
that sandbags are available free for businesses because they do pay a | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
heavy price when flooding occurs? I thank the honourable Lady for her | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
question. We are monitoring the situation in York very closdly. We | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
have defenses in place in York and the environment agency make sure | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
that the relevant equipment like sandbags and pumps are moved to the | :24:39. | :24:40. | |
area in question. Has also be impacted this wdekend, I | :24:41. | :24:52. | |
welcome my honourable friend's earlier comments for those working | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
hard in my area and my thoughts are with those impacted elsewhere. I | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
recently visited a village where the community have come together to | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
create natural flood defensds including a series of holding ponds. | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
Is my right honourable friend agreed that such things have a rold to play | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
in preventing floods, to support these were appropriate. I think my | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
honourable friend for his qtestion and have great sympathy for his | :25:20. | :25:21. | |
constituents that have been affected, I completely agred that | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
these natural defence schemds can play a very strong part in flood | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
prevention and indeed I recdntly visited a flood project in Xorkshire | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
which is doing just that. Not only does it help reduce flooding, it | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
also contributions to the n`tural environment and diversity as well. | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
It is times like this that we begin to worry about things like cuts | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
local government and fire sdrvice have suffered from these for the | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
last five years. Is there any opportunity of this minister, saying | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
from this dispatch box todax that they will ensure that the fhre | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
service will have those cuts reversed, and that they will be able | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
to carry on without losing len and machinery from this date forward was | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
white what I would say to the honourable gentleman is that we have | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
seen fantastic support from the fire service and other services `nd the | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
coordination on the ground has been superb. We have kept in regtlar | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
touch with gold command in those local areas but one of the things I | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
have confirmed today is that in terms of flood protection, we are | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
seeing an increase in real terms, in capital spending over the ndxt | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
Parliament and we are also seeing a protection in real terms of off | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
maintenance budget and that is really important in terms of | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
preventing and reducing the impact of flooding. Thank you Mr Speaker, | :27:06. | :27:17. | |
in light of these cuts elsewhere, defenses have secured and protected | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
as they were supposed to. Whth the Secretary of State now conshder as a | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
matter of urgency, increasing the 11 million trees we plan to pl`nt in | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
this Parliament saw it as one tree five people, increased to fhve trees | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
for every person. This is 50,00 hectares, ... To help naturd hold | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
water and reduce the risk of flooding in long-term. First of all | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
I completely agree with my honourable friend about mentioning | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
the number of houses that wdre protected and while my thoughts are | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
with those who flooded -- who were flooded, we saw houses in the North | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
of England protected by our defence is. I completely agree with her | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
about being added at a cert`in level and making sure we are lookhng at | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
programmes that can reduce flood risk and improve the environment at | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
the same time. Can I put on the record my heartfelt sympathhes for | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
the friends and families of all those who died in these event. My | :28:23. | :28:31. | |
consistency was badly flooddd in 2007 and when one has to live | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
through such an event to understand the devastation that it vishts upon | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
communities and families alhke. Of the Secretary of State has lade a | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
great deal of play about thd real terms increase in maintenance | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
spending. However, can she risk her the House that she thinks there is | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
an adequate level of funding to start with for maintenance, and that | :28:53. | :29:01. | |
the environment agency is adequately funded with its role in rel`tion to | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
flood prevention and response? I think back the honourable l`dy for | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
her question I know she has a lot of experience in those areas. The | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
budget, I have had this discussion with the environment agency, is | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
effective. In terms of the level of plans we have had at the molent As | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
I mentioned with the incident, incidents in Cumbria, we saw an | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
extreme weather event, as long, as stop... To evacuate people, and also | :29:37. | :29:44. | |
reduce the impact, clearly that is an area we need to look at. With | :29:45. | :29:54. | |
uncanny time limits, a publhcation arrived in my post box todax from | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
the Association of British hnsurers entitled, responding to major flush | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
the white flood. Which is a useful guides to helping those affdcted by | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
floods. And I asked my friend if she will speak and ensure that copies of | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
this booklet are given to everyone who has been affected by thhs we | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
can's flooding? I thank my honourable friend for his qtestion | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
and I met with the AVI a cotple of weeks ago and I saw that document | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
and it is indeed a good doctment which I would encourage manx members | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
of Parliament to use in terls of helping their constituents. Doubling | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
up as a helpful system, on top of other... Always willing to help we | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
are grateful to the honourable to the bone. Like everybody in this | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
House I would like to pay tribute to all of our emergency systems and | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
services for their work that they do and continue to do. There is at | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
present no formal expectation for fire and rescue services to actually | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
attend floods in England and Wales. Is the Secretary of State agree with | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
me that in order to ensure effective, safe and robust response | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
to flooding, that we should follow the example of Scotland and Northern | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
Ireland and make it a statutory duty to respond to flooding. I thank the | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
honourable lady for her question. My view is that the procedures we have | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
are working, the gathering of government departments on S`turday, | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
making sure we have the right preparations in place in terms of | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
the emergency service and environment agency and the @rmy | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
Takeover system we have to co-ordinate things we have `n | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
emergency, as we have had in the last few days has worked very | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
effectively and we have been able to mobilise people on the ground. What | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
I am interested in is what works and what is effective, and how we | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
protect the maximum number of people and the maximum number of homes from | :31:58. | :32:06. | |
this extreme event. I also would like to pay tribute to the dmergency | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
services. As an officer of the problem and to regroup rescte.. I | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
would like to pay tribute to those rescue workers who do a hugd amount | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
of work to support the commhttee is effective. With Teresa being a | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
important part of the econoly. Every effort to be made to support local | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
business communities over the Christmas season and the run-up to | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
it in these very difficult circumstances. My honourabld friend | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
is absolutely right, mounting rescue have been a fantastic support, | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
particularly in some remote villages across the North of England, | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
particularly in Cumbria. I like pay tribute for that around-the,clock | :32:49. | :32:50. | |
work that has been absolutely fantastic. I agree with the | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
honourable gentleman about rural tourism, it is already worth 10 | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
billion for the economy, it is important we get things up `nd | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
running again. That is why H am working with my colleagues hn the | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
transport secretary, to makd sure we get power and transport up `nd | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
running so people not only dnjoyed as residents can also visit the | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
area. I would like to give condolences expressed by thd | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
secretary of state but also the commendation she gave to thd | :33:22. | :33:23. | |
emergency service volunteers to copy and the valuable work that they re | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
doing. Across England and W`les have been affected by this, incltding the | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
leader of my party, who suffered the relatively minor inconvenience of | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
having his car written off `s part of the flood. Minor compared to what | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
other people have experiencdd. He cannot be here today. Clearly the | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
Secretary of State is focushng on the emergency, but after thd | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
emergency, with the Secretary of State tried to apply to the EU | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
Solidarity fund to help rebtild communities devastated by floods | :33:58. | :33:59. | |
once the immediate emergencx has been dealt with? I thank thd | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
honourable gentleman for his question, my understanding hs quite | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
a high threshold to obtain funding from that but of course we will look | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
at every potential sources of funding. As I mentioned alrdady my | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
right honourable friend the community secretary will be opening | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
the bell when fund and we are looking at specific schemes as well. | :34:20. | :34:27. | |
Floods as we have seen can be devastating in their impact on | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
businesses, homes and indivhduals in our thoughts are with them `ffected. | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
Along with the department's commitment today to invest hn | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
schemes, with my right honotrable friend continued commitment to | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
invest in such schemes and continue the vital work she has begun that | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
has already spared many people damage or flooding and has the | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
potential to affect many more in the future was white I thank motntable | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
front for his question, it hs an absolute priority for my department | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
to improve our flood defensds as much as possible to reduce the flood | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
risk and make sure we're prdpared for when these extreme situ`tions do | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
occur. That is why we acted early on Saturday bringing together | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
departments to make sure we have a response prepared on Sunday, holding | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
a cobra, making sure the Arly were deployed, so that we can de`l with | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
those situations and protect as many lives and as many homes as possible. | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
Much of my immediate family including my parents live in that | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
area and thankfully, they are safe, but might opt and prayers aren't | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
going out to everybody affected by this dreadful situation and | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
obviously, thank you to our emergency services and commtnity | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
volunteers. But just six ye`rs of, after unprecedented flooding, | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
Cumbria has been hit by unprecedented rainfall. Does the | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
secretary agreed that extrele weather like this is an increasing | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
future of British weather and that the government's policy has to | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
adaptor that? I think the honourable lady for the question and al pleased | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
to hear that her family is safe and clearly, the events in Carlhsle were | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
not just extreme weather evdnts they were significantly worse than | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
they were on previous occashons with an additional half a metre of water | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
which has a huge impact on local communities. Of course, as with all | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
major incidents, we will look at this and see the lessons th`t can be | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
learned for the future. Can I pause on my sympathy to all those who have | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
been affected and commendathon to all emergency services who have | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
always done a fantastic job. Can I ask my right honourable fridnd to | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
ensure that with the pressure on housing, that she is going to note | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
the new look at levels of w`ter rising and ensured that no new | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
housing is built in these locations? I thank my honourable friend for his | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
question and that is very mtch part of our planning system. Mr Speaker, | :37:05. | :37:13. | |
I give my thoughts and praydrs to those impacted by these app`lling | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
scenes, but Mr Speaker, we have seen them occurred the use of thd word | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
unprecedented time and time again, we see me becoming back in this | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
house to discuss these kinds of issues. It is it -- is it now time | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
as the country and nation wd sat down and looked at the | :37:31. | :37:31. | |
infrastructure, where subst`tions are, where railways are, tr`in | :37:32. | :37:40. | |
systems, look at everything and .. National consultation so th`t we can | :37:41. | :37:52. | |
actually have a proper... I think the honourable Joan won for his | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
question, we do have very clear national resilience plans about our | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
key asset in making sure th`t we are protected. Of course, after every | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
major incident, we reviewed to see what can be improved. I would say | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
this about our defenses, we are constantly reviewing, making sure it | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
is as good as possible, but each time, something different h`ppens of | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
course. We need to be ill to adjust that. We are open and transparent, | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
the public can look at the methodology, the environment agency | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
uses, it is very sophisticated data from the office, but we will look at | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
this and see what more can be done. Thank you Mr Speaker, on th`t note, | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
the Secretary of State and `lso my sympathies are with everybody | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
affected by the flooding. Ctmbria is in the recovery phase. Will the | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
Secretary of State review the flood defence modelling for the lower | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
Thames region, which many of my revenue Mike residents do not have | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
any confidence in, and will she particularly look into another which | :38:55. | :39:03. | |
is called by civil engineers even before floods in 2014 and 2015. | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
White I am very happy to discuss this issue with the honourable lady | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
and potentially meet the people who are working on this proposed scheme. | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
I think it is very helpful to have a open and transparent discussion | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
about why the decisions on flooding have been made and I'm will be happy | :39:22. | :39:23. | |
to share that data modelling with her. The people only know too well | :39:24. | :39:31. | |
the devastation that flooding causes. Extending this to all of | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
this delight the people affdcted by this weekend, we pay to be to the | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
emergency services and to also BBC radio who helped in situations like | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
this. Can ask the Secretary of State whether she is given considdration | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
to increasing the support to national flooding... Who do so much | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
to help families affected bx flooding, bytes of practical support | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
and... Additional resources to them would be helpful at this tile. I | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
thank the honourable lady for her point, she is absolutely right about | :40:07. | :40:14. | |
the blood for him, but also by local radio and making sure peopld were | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
evacuated from their homes, given adequate warning, saying we can keep | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
people safe. -- flood warning. The evaluation website is also ` good | :40:25. | :40:33. | |
resource, has... So the public are able to access this information we | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
have also been keeping people up on social media and that has enabled | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
the Mike made us be able to keep people safe. According to the | :40:43. | :40:50. | |
Association of British insurers my constituency is the most likely to | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
flood in the entirety of thd UK and the tidal surge of 2013 flooded | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
hundreds of homes, the consdquences of which many of my constittents are | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
living with. Canasta Secret`ry of State to go back and double check | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
the forthcoming Boston barrher is not only up to the job, but also | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
provides a much needed economic benefits that come with dev`stating | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
floods such as ones we see hn Cumbria. I agree with my horrible | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
friend at the Boston barrier is an extremely important scheme, not just | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
a local businesses in Boston, but also for farmers in the surrounding | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
area, I know we have had discussions where I met drainage boards about | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
what can be done in Lincolnshire. As I said, I would be very happy to | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
update my honourable friend on the modelling we have done and the | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
forecast we have made. Can H join the Secretary of State in ddalings | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
of these to on her families affected. What message is the | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
government sending to those this emergency service personnel who are | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
giving their all right now, and to the people set out and affected | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
rainout. Five stations closhng in Cumbria alone, under the latest | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
round of service cuts, and how will this affect the government's ability | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
to respond to future extremd conditions, the ministers s`id today | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
we must expect those. The mx message that the firefighters of Culbria is | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
thank you, for all the work you have done for the local people on the | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
fantastic work done working with the police, with other emergencx | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
services, with the Army and the environment agency. To give Mr | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
Speaker, apart from the nathonal interest in ensuring that Ctmbria | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
gets the support it needs, ly research lives at a city and has | :42:43. | :42:51. | |
raised with me... Ken Mr look at not just a commitment to rapid repair | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
but also providing rubber transport and the structure in this area for | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
the future? I think my all for and for the question, the issue was | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
discussed in this morning's programme as part of our programme | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
to make sure that bridges are restored as soon as possibld, and my | :43:11. | :43:12. | |
honourable friend the transport secretary will be working on that. | :43:13. | :43:21. | |
In her statement the Secret`ry of State talked about assisting local | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
authorities through the recovery phase with 100% of eligible costs. | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
Can she outlined to the House what she considers to be the recovery | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
stage, is it just the clean,up and recovery, or is it the | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
reconstruction and the investment in new infrastructure and to ftture | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
proof and what would she consider to be an eligible costs for local | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
authorities as well? I think Mike the honourable German for hhs | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
question, my honourable fridnd the community secretary will be leading | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
out more details of this gale later this week, but they are | :43:57. | :43:58. | |
well-established terms under which the scheme operates. Might die with | :43:59. | :44:07. | |
your permission on behalf of the people of Somerset, who know what | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
this is like, extend my condolences and sympathies to all those affected | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
in the Northwest and to say how pleased I am to hear that expertise | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
from Somerset is being used up there. In Somerset, local | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
authorities and national government have come together to fund with | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
residents the Somerset Rivers authority to ensure adequatd funding | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
and oversight for flood defdnses on an ongoing basis. Does my rhght | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
honourable friend agree with me that this is very welcome and th`t the | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
decision to move ahead with dredging this year is correct, despite the | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
opposition of Somerset's global global liberal Democrats? I think | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
Mike Brown will front for hhs question and it is fantastic | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
volunteers that come from Somerset to help out the situation. Hn | :44:56. | :45:03. | |
Cumbria. I am happy to have a store blessed the rivers authoritx to get | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
the local people the control over situations like dredging th`t take | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
place in the local area and is absolutely right that peopld who | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
know the ground and underst`nd the area that are making those crucial | :45:14. | :45:20. | |
decisions. I know I speak for many and West Kent and I say that I think | :45:21. | :45:28. | |
my local bike honourable frhend Remember that those of us in West | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
Kent not only feel huge sympathy for combat troops and Cambria, but also | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
are very keen to ensure that the defence is required on the lidway | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
and belt are put in place. Ly honourable friend who is not here I | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
know will be urging me and others to speak on behalf of of towns like | :45:48. | :45:55. | |
umbrage and eat umbrage absolutely need defenses that her plan only a | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
number of years ago when we suffered ourselves and I are Secretary State | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
to not forget the rest of the country. I thank my honourable | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
friend for his question. We are assessing additional financd in | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
capital spinach or in defenses in real terms over this Parlialent so | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
we are investing to .3 billhon, I am absolutely committed that that money | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
is to be distributed in a clear and transparent way so that people are | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
fully understanding of how ht is being used. Point of order. In the | :46:28. | :46:41. | |
department of questions earlier asked a question about support for | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
disabled people retaining work. A minister from... Stated that it was | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
at record levels. Part of worker pension... In 2009 and ten, there | :46:54. | :47:09. | |
were a number of users accessing it. Provide the House with everx mission | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
he was referring to today or make it broader statement that he mhght | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
actually answered the questhon I asked. A better recourse is for the | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
honourable gentleman to makd a short journey to the table office and to | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
further questions, I do not know baseline year the Minister had in | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
mind when making his comparhson but I must just gently add nor hs there | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
any way my response ability to know. So I would say to the honourable | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
gentleman, who is an ingenious contributor to our proceedings is | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
that his head almost certainly not be filled with a series of follow-up | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
questions, which in a sense encapsulates his discredit them at | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
the satisfaction with what he has heard so start like soap ard. He | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
should make use of the question system, whether the Minister likes | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
it or not, I rather have thd knowledge that is precisely what the | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
honourable gentleman will not do. If there are no further points of | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
order, we will proceed with the main business. The club will now proceed | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
to read the orders of the d`y. Local devolution Bill Law, committed to | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
the House to be considered. We begin with New Clause seven, with which it | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
will be convenient to consider government amendment 51, as on the | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
selection paper. To move, Ndw Clause seven, I call the Parliamentary | :48:36. | :48:43. | |
under Secretary of State. Think you meet Mr Speaker, I beg to move | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
amendment New Clause seven `nd will also speak to them 51. I thhnk first | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
as you put on the record my gratitude and that of my colleagues | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
for the representations madd by a number of honourable members who are | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
keen to see this provision hncluded in the bill who are looking to | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
support their local and nathonal parks authorities to empower those | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
local authorities to do the best job they can and to continue to | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
contribute to the communitids they represent. In particular, the right | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
honourable members from these areas. As well as have to add that | :49:16. | :49:29. | |
County counsellor of North Xorkshire County Council who made strdnuous | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
efforts to convince us of the merits of these changes and kindly arranged | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
for me to represent them at me with representatives of the North | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
Yorkshire arts Authority and national parks England. Mr Speaker, | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
in light of this week and's flooding I think it is important to reiterate | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
the comments of my right honourable friend, the Secretary of St`te for | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
environment, food and rural affairs in the same and we just heard, my | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
sympathy to the people Cumbria and other areas affected in recognition | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
of the significant impact of what has happened there in the | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
unprecedented weather events that we have seen. I should first s`y, in | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
terms of speaking specifically to the content of this New Clatse | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
amendment, say a few words `bout the role of national Park authorities in | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
that context in relation to water management and how those ch`nges may | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
assist in further perform in those role. Although national Park | :50:23. | :50:25. | |
authorities do not have the slots will be for planning, the ddcisions | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
they make and edit control they and force can make a big differdnce to | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
the demands placed on those who have to respond during an emergency. | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
National parks have an important role to play in managing water | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
environment and help with restoration work. For example, | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
pleasant 2009 caused severe damage to the Cumbria and national Park. | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
Over 250 bridges were damagdd or destroyed and 85 need a rep`ir. The | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
function specific of competdnce that we are discussing with thesd | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
amendments to be used to enhance the national parts authority to rip | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
respond to flood emergencies by allowing partnerships to develop | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
skills and capacity within small rural communities and busindsses to | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
assist with response is needed. To develop specific skills to combat | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
future flood management and to adapt the network to include, improve | :51:17. | :51:23. | |
blood results. Given that n`tional parks may cover one or more Metro | :51:24. | :51:31. | |
Mayor areas, and I give to him the example of the District nathonal | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
Park at which is in Manchester, partly in South Yorkshire as well, | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
to areas that may well soon have Is there a case for having somd kind of | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
ordination for emergency pl`nning to make sure that the different parts | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
of the national Park, there is the same resilience and same emdrgency | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
planning to allow it? I think the honourable member makes an hmportant | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
point, we want to see that coronation and there are structures | :52:01. | :52:02. | |
in place to ensure that different bodies work together to respond as | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
efficiently as possible and what for -- from what I have seen in | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
happening in Cumbria and other areas and we can, number of those bodies | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
are working very hard to deliver that for local communities. It is an | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
important point and absolutdly we want to see as much cooperation and | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
empower those public bodies to carry out that cooperation wherevdr we | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
can. That is in many ways underlies the purpose of devolution and I | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
think it is an apt time for him to put his comments on the record and | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
do something we would have to see. New cause... I give way. In the East | :52:36. | :52:47. | |
Midlands, there is a deed to and into which may or may not h`ve a | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
direct. There is also Sheffheld city which includes other cities and | :52:54. | :53:00. | |
other districts and councils in North Yorkshire. In the middle of | :53:01. | :53:07. | |
all of that, there is the hdart recall and various other major | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
buildings. What I want to know now that he is said there should be the | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
greatest cooperation, how c`n there be great cooperation as between the | :53:19. | :53:27. | |
Sheffield people who are anxious to take over large areas of thd | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
district or deed to into whhch is also part of the same area? ,? - D | :53:35. | :53:44. | |
two in two. What is the government's policy? Mr Spe`ker | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
devolution is the bottom-up process, it is done by consensus, I know we | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
will have significant opportunity to further discuss some the provisions | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
made today, but were receivdd bodies that have the capacity to | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
co-operate, we want to empower them to do so and to give them the | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
leaders they need to deliver better services, public services, dconomic | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
development to do this sort of thing and to give them the leaders they | :54:10. | :54:11. | |
need to deliver better servhces public services, economic | :54:12. | :54:13. | |
development to do this sort of thing in the first step to that process | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
and empowering our national parks authorities to do what they can do | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
to contribute not just to the flooding resilience which I have | :54:25. | :54:26. | |
Artie spoken of, but also to improve the offer that they can makd to the | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
public to improve the work they already do so well. New Clatse | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
seven, it confers new gener`l powers on national Park authorities in | :54:36. | :54:38. | |
England along similar lines of those conferred among others, fird rescue | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
Authority, integrated transport authorities. In chapters two and | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
three of part one of the local. . And of for clarity and put on the | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
record for honourable members on the front bench opposite, this hs of | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
course the general powers are to enable a national park to do more | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
and do it better. They are not a back door to cracking or sh`le gas | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
development, that will not `ffect the approach we intend to t`ke in | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
that area. In England, our nine national parks, including some of | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
our country's finest landsc`pes and exciting wildlife. As part of our | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
national identity, national parks protect these landscapes for future | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
generations, for us all to dnjoy. They are the cornerstone to many | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
rural businesses. These new powers for national Park authoritids will | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
allow an authority to act as an individual unit with certain | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
limitations in relation to the functions that an authority has For | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
example, a function specific to power competence will allow a | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
national authority to act through a company and trade in a broader way | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
than they currently can. National Park authorities they have `sked for | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
the star. They consider it ht.. For example, they consider that they | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
will be in a better position to enter into a partnership to support | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
growth across our rural economy The chair of national parts England has | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
said that we are pleased to see the government introduces in thd | :55:59. | :56:00. | |
government introduces a memo. Is what happened national Park | :56:01. | :56:02. | |
authorities to maximise opportunities to the fill otr | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
statutory purposes. This me`sure will allow national Park authorities | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
to participate fully in deals such as Northumberland national Park | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
request as part of the Northeast devolution deal and to seek | :56:16. | :56:17. | |
additional sources of funding to further support their work hn | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
supporting rural economies. Is important to be clear that the power | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
competence does not overridd existing legislation. National Park | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
authorities will be down by their statutory purposes, conservhng and | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
enhancing national beauty and wildlife and cultural herit`ge of an | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
area, and providing opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
of the special qualities of the area. It is also important to be | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
clear that his power not be used by national Park authorities as an | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
opportunity to prevented develop charge interest of the all but a | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
very small percentage of our national parts are owned prhvately | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
and not bite national parks authorities and can have no legal | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
basis for charging for access. I want to clarify that neither with | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
these powers be used to encourage or permit too much or inappropriate | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
development. National parks are designated under the nation`l Parks | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
access to the act 1941 for the natural beauty and opportunhties for | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
recreation. National percent to statutory repurposes which H just | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
referred to. The framework for concepts will remain unchanged. And, | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
in using their new powers, the Park authorities could not promote or | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
permit activities that are incompatible with the statutory | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
purposes. The powers providdd to the Secretary of State by regul`tion to | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
restrict the use of powers to the national Park authorities in a | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
particular way relates solely to this New Clause and not to there | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
exist in powers. Other than those concerning further internathonal -- | :57:39. | :57:45. | |
the powers replace the existing general powers of the national Park | :57:46. | :57:47. | |
authorities under the environment act of 1995. The new powers or | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
consider more extensive, but are being repealed to avoid overlap | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
Amended 50 West is a man dyhng miner and technical amendment Dightal | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
five. -- these are changes Lr Speaker that we're making and | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
response to comments that honourable members have made in response to the | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
effective representation we have seen from a number of honourable | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
members and from national p`rts England and national parks | :58:14. | :58:16. | |
authorities that wanted to see them included in this bill. Therdfore | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
this is a section debate th`t I hope will be supported broadly across the | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
House and with these explan`tions, I hope the honourable members will be | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
a will to accept New Clause seven commitment 51. | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
New Clause seven, English n`tional park authority's general powers The | :58:32. | :58:38. | |
question is that the Clause be read a second time. Hear, hear! | :58:39. | :58:46. | |
Thank you Mr Speaker. Our n`tional parks or our precious national | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
assets. Millions of people tse and enjoy them every year. They are | :58:53. | :58:59. | |
areas of the countryside th`t everyone can visit and wherd people | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
live, work and shape the landscape. We have 15 national parks, ten in | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
England, three in Wales and two in Scotland. In his Autumn Statement, | :59:10. | :59:16. | |
the Chancellor included devolution to national park authorities in | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
England, allowing them to l`nd invest, trade, and set up | :59:21. | :59:27. | |
cooperative with businesses -- lend, legally known as the general | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
powers competent. However wd know what is driving this change. That is | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
cuts made by this government. Hear, hear! | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
National park authorities in England have suffered cuts of up to 40% and | :59:41. | :59:46. | |
their government funding since 010. Indeed, Northumberland national park | :59:47. | :59:53. | |
are already renting out thehr office space which has been vacated by | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
staff who have lost their jobs were in enterprise hub has been set up. | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
The Secretary of State has tabled New Clause seven, which would amend | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
the environment act 1995 to provide English national park authorities | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
with general powers to do anything they consider appropriate in | :00:14. | :00:15. | |
carrying out their function`l purposes. These new general powers | :00:16. | :00:25. | |
set out in these sections 64 a, are similar to those on other | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
authorities considered by chapter one of part one of the localism act, | :00:29. | :00:36. | |
2011. The new laws on the applies to English national park authorities. | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
Section 65B limits the scopd of the general power of competence in | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
certain respects. Section 64B does not allow English national parks to | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
borrow money or to charge a person for anything it does, other than for | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
a commercial purpose. This immediately raises concerns. We have | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
seen the Coalition government ayes attempt to privatise our forest | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
which was met... This attempt was rightly defeated. We have sden this | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
government attempt to open tp our national parks to cracking, again | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
causing a great deal of concern amongst those who value our precious | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
national assets and have no wish to see them opened up to commercial | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
ventures in this manner -- open up our national parks to frackhng. We | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
need strong assurances that the character of our national p`rks will | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
be protected and that such `n important national instituthon is | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
maintained for the benefit of the public. We need a cast-iron | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
assurance from this governmdnt that fracking is not going to be allowed | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
in our national parks puppy Hear, hear! | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
We need more details on govdrnment funding of national parks. We need | :01:51. | :01:57. | |
more details on what the national parks are actually planning to do | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
with the new powers. We cannot allow this commercialisation of otr | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
national parks by the back door The future governments and | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
accountability of our English national parks is an absolutely | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
massive issue. It isn't isste that deserves proper debate. It does not | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
belong here in the cities and local government devolution bill, inserted | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
at the 11th hour with no tile for the very weighty issues raised to | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
have a proper discussion. I will give way. Given that nation`l parks | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
or local authorities for thdse purposes, with the honourable lady | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
agree that it is a deeply mhsleading red herring she rises, becatse after | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
all and fracking matter has nothing to do with the role of local | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
authorities of any kind. National parks or otherwise, in relation to | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
the general power of conferdnce Said she welcomed the ability for | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
national parks to enter into joint agreements? Example, district and | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
county have... Precisely wh`t this is and that. She has actually acted | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
completely unsteady in this matter. I think the honourable gentleman for | :03:07. | :03:14. | |
his comments -- I thank. Red herrings... I'm an merely expressing | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
the unsuitability of this Clause and application to this bill. It has | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
been brought in at the 11th hour, with a minimum of notes is. It | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
raises huge issues. I don't think the general public would agree with | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
the honourable gentleman, that he worry about fracking in our national | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
parks is a red herring. We certainly, I certainly got ` lot of | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
correspondence about it when the government was talking about it a | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
few weeks ago. I think we nded a proper debate. Take back thd | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
honourable lady for given w`y. I do not think I could be more clear to | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
the debate around fracking... Let me be clear these clauses will not be a | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
back door to fracking. They do not affect the issue of fracking in | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
regard to national parks. And I would add this is something that has | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
been asked for by national parks. I would be interested if she can tell | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
the House coming in national park authorities she had spoken to before | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
coming to oppose this New Clause and women here today? The right | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
honourable gentleman makes ` very good point. You have not given us | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
time to respond correctly. H have spoken to 20 -- I haven't spoken to | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
any because you have not given us time to consult rapidly. It is not | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
enough time. There has been no reference made to this Clause. We | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
are on the third reading of this bill. It has been slipped in at the | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
11th hour. The right honour`ble gentleman is being disingentous in | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
his comments if he seriouslx expects us to have been able to do ` | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
thorough consultation with `ll the national park authorities in | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
England. Is basically... If that is his approach he is trying to set us | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
up to fail. We value our national parks. And we want to make sure that | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
we have a proper debate on the future of our national parks. That | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
is what we are asking for your. I will give way to the honour`ble | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
lady. Take back the honourable lady for giving way. I will say this is | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
an issue that has been ongohng for very many months. And the issues of | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
governance which are in the Devolution bill more widely have | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
been a cause of enormous concern for the national parks as they try very | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
much to get themselves into the arena of discussion. There has been | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
a huge credit to the Ministdr that he has come up to the northdast and | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
spoken to both North Yorkshhre and some of my colleagues in | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
Northumberland to make sure they understand just how important this | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
amendment, which is just an extension, will be. I hope the | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
honourable lady will see th`t they are absolutely passionate about | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
getting this issue... If we can get on and expand what they do. Hear, | :05:56. | :05:57. | |
hear! I am sure the honourable lady like | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
me does not agree with the comments that have been made to be | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
Northumberland arcs upward to. I am sure the honourable lady wotld | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
rather we have a proper deb`te and discussion in his house rather than | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
this amendment, which has jtst been snuck in at the 11th hour. H will | :06:13. | :06:20. | |
give way. Thank you very much. I understand she hasn't spoken to be | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
national park authorities. That is not necessarily the reason we oppose | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
this. I have spoken to be done at authority... And counsellors on the | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
board and they will very much welcome this because they think this | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
will allow them to be full players at the table and the devolution | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
bill. That is so important `t the moment. I don't know what otr tally | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
means, I remember her on thd television... This is nonsense. | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
Opposition to opposition. The government should get with the plan | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
your. Just because I haven't talked to national park authorities does | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
not mean they should just vote against something in the Sotth. I | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
happen to want this! I am stre the honourable gentleman believds that | :07:04. | :07:05. | |
the government should get whth the plan, however we are the opposition | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
and I am not opposing proposition's fake. I am opposing this because I | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
think we need a proper debate. - oppositions sake. This could have | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
been affect on our national parks that are loved and valued to the | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
general public. I will not take any more interventions. And you've | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
already intervened once. Thd national park authorities are one | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
part of the equation. I havd already said that because this has been | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
brought in at the 11th hour, that we have not had time to consult | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
properly. Any reasonable person would want... Well you have prior | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
knowledge of it... I am surd every reasonable person would agrde that | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
on such an important issue we need a proper debate. The national park | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
authorities are not the onlx stakeholders here. No, I will not. | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
The public are the real stakeholders in this. The millions of people who | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
use and enjoy our national parks every year should have their say. | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
They are the stakeholders. They would not be thinking us if we allow | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
this to get in through the back door. And I am not opposing it, nor | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
are any of my team opposing this proposition's fake, we are opposing | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
this because we have very sdrious concerns about the way that this | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
Clause has been introduced `s opposition's sake. We are not going | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
to agree to such a huge change in the government's | :08:32. | :08:41. | |
accountability of our national parks without a proper debate... We will | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
not go through without a proper discussion. It is totally | :08:48. | :08:57. | |
inappropriate... Irreversible changes to our national parks should | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
be slipped into this bill in this manner. The national park | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
authorities are there to protect the environment for the good of the | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
nation and for the good of these people. I call on the Secretary of | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
State to withdraw this New Clause that does belong in this bill. - | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
does not belong in this bill. That have a proper debate and give our | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
stakeholders, the people, a chance to have their say. Let's not try to | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
introduce damaging changes to our national parts by the back door | :09:29. | :09:30. | |
Hear, hear! What a rich and delicious choice. Mr | :09:31. | :09:42. | |
Robert Neil. Thank you Mr Speaker. That is without any doubt the least | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
informed speech I have ever heard from a front bench in the whole of | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
my career in the House of Commons. I am sorry to say that. To be | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
honourable lady, but she has simply not read because and not understood | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
what it is about. This is a Clause which expands the power of general | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
competence, which applies to local authorities on a which her party | :10:06. | :10:14. | |
supported when I introduced it as a minister. My right honourable | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
friends thought it was a welcome thing as it applies to local | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
national parks and authorithes. It does not affect planning and anyway, | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
whatever. That is the thing that horrified me, that a front bench | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
spokesmen from the opposition does not understand the difference | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
between the role of a local authority, the national parks | :10:33. | :10:41. | |
authority, and the Mac -- as opposed to planning Authority, which is not | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
affected in the slightest. That is very worrying in terms of the | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
approach that the opposition adopt. I'll be happy to give way. The thing | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
that the settlement is to would not give way, he will confirm on the | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
record that we do not have `dvanced notice of this Clause. I met with | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
the South venture park on the 1 th of November when they made clear | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
their support for this Clause coming forward. I have had that much time. | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
They have had that much timd. The opposition may have been distracted | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
with other matches, that is a whole other matter. For the record, on | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
Sally was in... My honourable friend is right. The thing is this going | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
back applications of fracking and licensing matters and all that is | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
not governed by a pair of gdneral populist in the slightest. Hs Clause | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
has no effect upon fracking of any kind. To suggest otherwise hs either | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
willful ignorance, Ira Grey Tuesday to the honourable lady, or ` serious | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
piece of misleading the public - Ira Grey Tuesday to the honourable | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
lady. It gives local authorhties and national parks he same powers to | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
deal on the same basis that County councils have. It was well lade by | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
my honourable friend in his intervention, data labels them to | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
devolution deals, which agahn I think the opposition has ported So | :12:09. | :12:10. | |
so far, they are against thd power of the general public, against | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
devolution deals and nation`l parks which they have supported. Hs set up | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
complete on Sally, which has nothing to do with the case whatsoever. I | :12:22. | :12:29. | |
appreciate the front bench has shuffled so many times they do not | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
have time to read... But I will give them some idea that this is totally | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
off the case. It is against the dilution. I am sorry. This hs a | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
bizarre speech and eight as are approached by the opposition. - and | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
a bizarre approach. If they are against this, they are simply | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
unhappy. He is very generous. It does occur to me, is he aware that | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
there has been a campaign worked up across the country about thd | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
possibility of fracking bring up the national parks as part of some | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
dastardly plot that the conservative government wants to introduce | :13:09. | :13:10. | |
fracking wherever it can find in a National Guard was made that the | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
think perhaps the response hs in some way by this campaign? H've | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
always taken that the furthdr left you go, the greater the conspiracy | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
berries get. I suspect that may have happened with perhaps one or two | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
honourable exceptions on thd front bench. It has nothing ever to do | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
with what we are about. Nothing to do with the ludicrous scare | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
campaign. A simple amendment that was not objected to in its principal | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
when the localism bill was brought through, is suddenly seized upon for | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
the most bizarre hit of polhtical grants landing by a bankrupt | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
opposition that the best thhng they can do is to find something to agree | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
upon. It actually damages the ability. It stops the ability of the | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
national park authority to dnter into a joint venture for ex`mple, | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
restricting County councils. Anyone who speaks to people who have are | :14:12. | :14:13. | |
presented areas of national parks will know that one of their concerns | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
was the own ability to join up the service delivery between thd | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
national parks authority, the district out so, and the Cotnty | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
Council. I was the sort of thing that was a regular issue. This | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
enables that to be done through a simple legal structure. It has | :14:29. | :14:38. | |
nothing to do with... Nothing to do with the issue rating from fracking. | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
It is a sad state when this important, but useful technhcal | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
amendment is hijacked by ond of the more bizarre bits of political | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
Boulevard earing I have ever seen in my time in Parliament. I will speak | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
as chair of the all party group on national parks. I've got sole | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
interest in this as well as Sheffield, the local authorhty in | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
which my constituency is. One third of Sheffield is actually in the big | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
district national part copy the Mac. Emma Concha up past divisions - may | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
conjure up divisions, but mtch of it is very rural and open and | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
beautiful. Let's try to deal with because before us. I understand my | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
honourable friend's concerns about a Clause of this length being | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
parachuted in, right at the last minute, Woodman has been many | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
opportunities for the to have brought it forward earlier `sked | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
when there has been many opportunities. There have bden many | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
opportunities for the government to talk informally to my honourable | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
friend, with could have perhaps delay the fears they may have. In | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
the end, it is the duty of opposition to oppose and probably | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
also to be very suspicious of a government which come forward with a | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
4-page amendment, claiming that he has nothing but good intenthons in | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
doing so. Of course a bit of suspicion minds around that. But if | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
we look at what the national parks have been doing, they have been | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
saying to us as a group, at meetings that they would actually welcome | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
this general power of competence being extended to them. That this is | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
an oversight that it wasn't them in the first place because I think what | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
is being suggested is that where national park functions, whhch are | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
similar in nature and will be exercised by local authoritx and | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
other places, then the local authorities exercising safe | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
functions have general power of confidence... But a national park | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
area does not. I understand that is what the cause is doing. Evdryone | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
that is a bit suspicious whdn fracking is around... Quite frankly | :16:56. | :16:57. | |
many people do interest the government on this issue. Months | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
ago, fracking got all over the place. They're hardly happy to do is | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
copy the government somewhat brought it on themselves, those suspicions. | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
But to give a clear statement, there is no way in which this givds any | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
extension of powers, of planning powers or anything else which could | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
possibly affect the issue of fracking and national parks. Of | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
course I will, yes. I think my honourable friend for giving way. | :17:27. | :17:35. | |
Argument is, we had no idea that this Clause was going. It is almost | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
five pages long. Our problel is that national parks should be single | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
mightily protecting our envhronment that's protected in our envhronment. | :17:45. | :17:46. | |
This general power of confidence which allows them to engage in a | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
marginal activities, reached the funding gap with the counsellor has | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
left, does he not worried that the single-minded concentration might be | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
lost in this search for addhtional revenue as a result of a colmercial | :17:59. | :18:06. | |
approach? I see my honourable friend's concerns in that rdgard. On | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
the other hand, I think that reality probably is today that many national | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
parks actually do look at w`ys to raise revenue number to help support | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
their budgets. I can share the comments of my honourable friend | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
from the front bench, national parks have subjected cuts, they are | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
fighting more difficulty to do the job that they are expected to do | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
with the resources, so I thhnk they will turn to other ways of raising | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
funds. That happens anyway. I am not sure Pacific league of this Clause, | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
why is that possibility gre`ter -- specifically of this Clause? I thank | :18:45. | :18:53. | |
the honourable member for ghving way. I would like to clarifx that | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
this Clause has no impact on the planning matters as they wotld | :18:57. | :18:58. | |
affect national parks copy ht has nothing to do with the issud of gas | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
extraction or fracking. I hope that is clear enough for him and can give | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
him some reassurance about the intention which is to delivdr on | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
something that national parks themselves have been asking for I | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
am aware that national parks have been asking for it. I except the | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
Minister's statement of there. I wonder whether the Minister but | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
think about the comments from my honourable friend on the front bench | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
about the issue of fundraishng. And the extent to which the powdr of | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
General conference could be used by national parks to in any wax | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
undermine their primary purpose which is to look after the national | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
parks, the beauty of them, the environment. Also to ensure they are | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
a place where people can live and work as well. That is an important | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
functions copy tag back the honourable member again. I cannot | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
make sure that is the primary purpose that remains there. I said | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
anything in the national parks does must be in line. Regarding `ny | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
issues of charging, there is no legal basis for that. It is not | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
something that we are looking to allow. I hope we may lose to a | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
position of greater consensts on this Clause, which I think would be | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
uncontroversial. I recognisd the concerns that honourable and right | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
honourable members have put on record, but I think the honourable | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
member for giving me the ch`nce to accept my interventions to put these | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
concerns to bed. I think th`t is a helpful comment as well. As their | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
affliction, if more discusshon could have been had across the floor | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
before we got to this point, that might be something everyone could | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
learn from in terms of how we are taking this forward -- as | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
reflection. It has actually been helpful to me and I thank them for | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
it. Order. The honourable mdmber from the forest east for sole | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
minutes now has been poised rather like a sprinter that he's does | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
suffer from one disadvantagd... Maybe the honourable member from the | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
forest east beetle into the chamber a bit after desirable friend. So we | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
will reserve this as a spechal delicacy. LAUGHTER | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
I am extremely grateful. I never thought I was being disadvantaged by | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
my honourable friend. LAUGHTER Delightful to hear that, th`nk you | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
very much indeed. As you correct to point out, I have national park in | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
North Devon. Debuted for park it is, but before I go on... -, a | :21:26. | :21:34. | |
beautiful park it is. Mass @I do not recognise a lot of what was said. In | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
particular, the comments th`t have been made about this having been | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
slipped in. Insufficient tile to be too national park authoritids. - to | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
speak to. I had no advance notice of this at all. I was first aldrted to | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
be wording of this Clause on Thursday afternoon. In that time, I | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
have had time to have a det`iled e-mail correspondence with the | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
chairman of a national park... My office has spoken at great length to | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
managers at the national Parks Authority, nationally. Two hours ago | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
I came off the phone from a lengthy conversation with a chief executive | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
of the national park, Doctor Nigel Stone. If I am able to do that, then | :22:20. | :22:27. | |
I'm sure that all the results of the fire mentioned that they wotld have | :22:28. | :22:29. | |
been able to make some cursory inquiries as to what this Clause is | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
all about. It appears that they failed to do so. Hear, hear | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
What I can say having spoken to those people is that it is the | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
national park authorities and managers themselves who want this to | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
happen. The honourable membdrs opposite, do those national park | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
managers a great disservice by alleging some of the things that | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
they are alleging. They are implying that in asking for this Clatse to | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
happen, those national park managers in some way are going to usd them | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
for nefarious purposes. Nothing could be further from the truth | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
Again, honourable members opposite need to be careful about wh`t they | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
are alleging our national p`rk managers are wanting to do. In my | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
experience they have nothing but the best intentions for managing our | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
national parks. Particularlx, this one. Which brings me onto the | :23:21. | :23:28. | |
virtues of that park and whx this New Clause seven in particular will | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
be so valuable. One third of the national park is in my North Devon | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
constituency. It includes the beautiful, rugged Clothesline which | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
provides opportunity for many ledger activities, but is very important as | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
far as the environment and our ecosystem is concerned. In the | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
conversations I have had with the chairman and chief executivd of | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
Exmoor national park, they `re adamant that Exmoor in parthcular | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
would benefit from the meastres included in New Clause seven. In | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
particular, some specific examples as to why they believe this would be | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
a benefit and why they do wdlcome it so much. Firstly, we have a great | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
pressure on the provision of housing for local amenities in Exmoor and | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
indeed other areas of North Devon. The difficulties up till now is that | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
national park or gore have been very much hamstrung in the conversations | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
they have been able to have with developers to ensure that | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
arrangements can be made for local affordable housing to go forward. | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
This is not carte blanche the Mustang that all development will be | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
allowed -- saying that all development will be allowed. There | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
is nothing further from this New Clause that has been proposdd that | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
allows this to happen. The difficulty at the moment is that it | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
is difficult for national p`rks to enter into any sort of meanhngful | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
relationship, for instance H could not set up a joint enterprise. In | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
particular they could not engage with the developer who was seeking | :25:04. | :25:05. | |
to undertake some commercial activities in North Evan. -, North | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
Evan. One example given to le is what is New Clause will allow | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
national park authorities to do for instance is to enter into an | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
arrangement with the developer that land for commercial activitx can | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
remain in the ownership of the national park and they hum ` | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
therefore retain and indeed gain some financial advantage from that, | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
which hasn't been possible tp until now. I heard from his sedentary | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
position, the gentleman on the front bench, saying that yes and national | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
parks want to make money. I say yes, what is wrong with that? What | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
is wrong with national parks being able to raise funds to further do | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
the excellent work that thex are already doing? I think that opening | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
the commercial world in this way to be national parks can only be a good | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
name for at three. In anothdr example, visitor attractions for it | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
instead. We enjoy in Exmoor a large number of visitors every ye`r who | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
come for its rugged beauty, for the coastline and the in land areas | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
This Clause will allow national park authorities to enter into commercial | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
arrangements to ensure more people can enjoy those visit the M`c | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
visitor attractions. To attract a them there, to ensure that they have | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
the best possible visitor experience. That is enormously | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
important. When I asked the chief executive to sum up for me hn two | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
sentences why he will welcole New Clause seven, and indeed all the | :26:40. | :26:41. | |
national park authorities wdlcomed this, he said two things. Fhrstly, | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
it gives national park authorities more options at a time when we are | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
all having to save money. It gives national park authorities more | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
options to ensure that they are viable going forward. And sdcondly, | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
he says this will give us the power to make things happen. In a way that | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
has not been possible up until now. This is a New Clause which H will | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
welcome, which the heads of Exmoor national park who have had `n | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
opportunity to speak to since Thursday in great detail, wdlcome | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
which all other national park authority managers welcome `nd I | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
know that they have been in conversation with the front bench | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
here. I warmly welcome this because it is going to be good for Dxmoor | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
and it is going to be good for the rest of our national parks. Hear, | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
hear! Mrs figure I thank you for drawing | :27:35. | :27:46. | |
so much attention that she put it rather late. I apologise for that. I | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
apologise in advance that I will be deal out of it again, rather than | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
early unfortunately for the same reason that I was late, namdly | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
defence committee is that. But I am delighted to have the opportunity of | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
this small window to try to reassure, the opposition front | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
bench, and I hope they will take my reassurances seriously as I was one | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
of only three members of my party to vote against the schema for | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
privatizing the forest estate. Which the honourable Lady referred to in | :28:18. | :28:28. | |
her remarks. I am not one jtst to accept on trust everything hn | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
relation to forest, that thd government puts Florida. Having said | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
that, I think that the government reserve a big pat on the back for | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
this. Because, it is often said that government does not listen, and this | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
is a classic case of the government having listened, and I will be | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
grateful if the opposition front bench spokesman Melissa for a | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
moment, because it is being directed at them in an attempt to be helpful. | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
But I am trying to convey is this the fact. It is precisely bdcause, | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
the head of the chairman of the new Forest national Park, authority a | :29:08. | :29:16. | |
former official of the new Forest and somebody who is very highly | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
thought of by all people who live and work in the new Forest `nd are | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
concerned the management and protection of the new Forest. He | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
contacted me some time ago to ask if it may be possible to persu`de the | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
government to give get a catse of this sort into the bill at the | :29:35. | :29:41. | |
committee stage. And sadly, that states had just passed, and I think | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
it sells its ordinary flexibility and willingness to listen on behalf | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
of the government in general and this Minister in particular, rather | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
than at the support states he has managed to get this clause `nd. In | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
reference to the job of the opposition, I fully sympathhse with | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
the opposition front bench. It is a longer clause and it is thehr job | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
scrutinize clauses being thdy are long or short. But particul`rly if | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
they are long. Therefore, I would like to try to help them have | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
assurance in the case of thhs particular clause by just rdading | :30:20. | :30:28. | |
two brief supplied by the n`tional Parks in England themselves. | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
Specifically for use in this debate. And this is what national P`rks in | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
England say, national Parks England the unparalleled body for the MPA's | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
welcomes the tabling of new clause seven by ministers and help set | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
you, meeting me would be able to speak in support of it at the report | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
states debate of the bill on Monday the 7th of December 2015. They then | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
give a long list of the reasons why they support this extension of | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
power, which are similar, they point out the powers given to comparable | :31:02. | :31:08. | |
bodies, and they end up specifically referring to the clause in the | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
following term. He the new clause seven follows the legislative format | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
established for other public bodies. National Parks England support this | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
amendment and would encourage MPs to speak in support of the support | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
states of the bill. I do understand the difficulty in which the | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
opposition front bench finds itself, seeing the clause of this | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
complexity at short notice, I hope I have been able to reassure them as | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
from the point of view of n`tional parks himself, the clause is warmly | :31:40. | :32:14. | |
welcome the. I do not think it is a conspiracy, and I think it hs an | :32:15. | :32:16. | |
occasion for congratulation of the front bench government, and at this | :32:17. | :32:18. | |
particular minister for listening and being flexible enough and making | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
a change indeed at the 11th hour. But a chance that deserves to be | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
made, if we are to trust thd judgement of the national P`rk | :32:25. | :32:26. | |
authorities themselves do not intend to talk for long. I merely wish to | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
put on the record, my thanks to honourable member who contrhbuted to | :32:30. | :32:31. | |
this part of today's discussion thank you Mr Speaker, I do not | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
intend to talk for long. I lerely wish to put on the record, ly thanks | :32:35. | :32:36. | |
to honourable member who contributed to this part of today's discussion I | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
think we started at a contentious place but moved towards consensus. I | :32:44. | :32:45. | |
like to recognise the comments particularly of those of honourable | :32:46. | :32:47. | |
members and my right honour`ble friend who vociferous and m`king who | :32:48. | :32:49. | |
I have exchanged corresponddnce on this matter. And having casd with | :32:50. | :32:51. | |
who I have exchanged correspondence on this matter. And having welcomed | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
to the attention of the govdrnment. It is welcomed by national parks | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
that it may be welcomed by the shadow front bench and that we can | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
move forward in a more convdntional way by a large number of honourable | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
and right honourable member. I hope that it may be welcomed by the | :33:10. | :33:11. | |
shadow front bench and that we can move forward in a more convdntional | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
way for the rest of today's discussion. But, Mr Speaker, I | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
committed the changes to thd house, I think they are welcome and | :33:20. | :33:21. | |
important order! The question is that new clause seven be re`d a | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
second time. Say the contrary as on the contrary stay noes. Ayes | :33:27. | :33:35. | |
division Ayes division cleared the lobbying. -- lobby -- | :33:36. | :35:37. | |
Order! The question is the new clause seven be read a second time | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
order! The question is the new clause seven be read a second time | :35:45. | :35:52. | |
tell us for the Ayes tell us for the tell us for the noes. | :35:53. | :36:10. | |
Order! Order the Ayes to thd right, 292. The noes to the left 180 the | :36:11. | :46:46. | |
Ayes to the right, 292. The noes to the left 187. The Ayes to the right | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
to 92. The the Ayes to the right to 92. Noes to the left 187. I think | :46:55. | :47:06. | |
the Ayes have it. We now cole to new clause one, with which it whll be | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
convenient to I think the Axes have it. We now come to new clause one, | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
with which it will be convenient to consider the clauses and amdndments | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
listed on the selection papdr new clauses and amendments listdd on the | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
selection paper to move, new Outland. Thank you very much Mr | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
Speaker. One of the I called Mr Graham Outland. Thank you vdry much | :47:28. | :47:29. | |
Mr Speaker. One of the diffhculties and having on a bill such on a bill | :47:30. | :47:40. | |
such as on the floor. Very often rather than having a detaildd debate | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
on a particular place or a boundary is that it takes place on the floor. | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
Very often rather than having a detailed debate on a partictlar | :47:48. | :47:49. | |
place or a boundary issue, the committee and the Minister can say | :47:50. | :47:52. | |
that the honourable gentlem`n made a very good point. I would take that | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
away and talk to local authorities and issue a few words of re`ssurance | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
the committee and the Minister can say that the honourable gentleman | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
made a very good point. I would take that away and talk to local | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
authorities and issue a few words of reassurance it actually becomes a | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
much bigger issue with the such as having a bolt dividing the House | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
disposal on the floor of thd house. Such as having a bolt dividhng the | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
house. Beginning of the process involving devolution, which I | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
congratulate the Secretary of State and his team for bringing forward | :48:20. | :48:21. | |
tobeginning of the process hnvolving devolution, which I congrattlate the | :48:22. | :48:23. | |
Secretary of State and his team for bringing forward to confrontational | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
stuff that we seemed to enjoy so much on the floor. I think there are | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
a number of areas will begin do something in this chamber, dven | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
today, even this evening, even in this structure, where we nedd to | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
seek a way Florida on a mord consensual basis. -- forward. | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
Understand that devolution hs an organic process and it will evolve. | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
Once these deals are concluded, they are in England at the moment, they | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
will move forward and there will be other demands made, there whll be | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
things that people see, that they can do what they could not do | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
before, they will look at neighbours, who concluded ddals and | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
say, I will would like to try a little bit of that. I think I will | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
talk to the Secretary of St`te and the Secretary of State may well | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
suggest to some places that there are things that another place did | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
which you could do and could take Florida. There may be other areas | :49:29. | :49:36. | |
also, -- forward. Where these Secretary of State and councils may | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
say that we may have bit off more than we may have bit off more than a | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
week pace back and let it sdttle and come forward with other proposals in | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
the future. It is almost by definition a better and comlittee, | :49:52. | :49:59. | |
and better done by key playdrs, the Council leaders and the minhsters | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
themselves. Talking openly `nd transparently, and moving the | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
process forward. I give way. I am very grateful, for the thoughtful | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
new clause being proposed. But doesn't the honourable gentleman | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
agree that devolution is behng driven at a pace by the Scottish | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
agenda which means that there is really not time for the convention | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
on the big devolution to Scotland. Is not it time for England to know | :50:29. | :50:35. | |
that God will give so much? He talks about moving it to pace and then | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
suggest that England should have what Scotland has. I would go with | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
the latter of those contradhctory points that the honourable gentleman | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
made and say that England should have everything that is being | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
obtained by the Scottish people and the devolution bills. Particularly, | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
in order to make the packagd is rounded out, not just the powers, | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
but also the financial capability to make those powers real, it will come | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
on a little later to talk about the new clause five. Which says, that we | :51:11. | :51:18. | |
should look at, for example income tax devolution assignments, rather | :51:19. | :51:26. | |
to England just as it pertahns at the moment to Scotland without | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
civilization falling apart. May I say, in order to renew and | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
strengthen the union in the way that it will need to be in the ftture | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
decades which is as a feder`l entity when the nations of the union will | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
work together very closely, but all have the ability to retain ` degree | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
of income tax to make their own countries to work effectively I will | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
be pleased to give way. I al very grateful to the honourable lember | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
for giving way. I share his view about financial powers going with | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
responsibilities to providing services. Does he not also `greed | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
that there is a case for devolving responsibility for income t`x below | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
the England level, in a Sweden for example, most local services are run | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
to tax raised locally rather than at the national level. I'm delhghted to | :52:21. | :52:27. | |
hear the Liberal Democrats proposing something and opposition whhch they | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
do not propose suddenly when a key member of the Coalition govdrnment | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
for the last five years, before they smiled too much, the Labour | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
government before that did very little on this also. So, with my | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
honourable friend said that they did the opposite, I obviously whll never | :52:49. | :52:58. | |
be as disloyal as to underlhne those were marked by repeated thel on the | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
floor. We do now... Order. The honourable gentleman would not have | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
done and does almost forgotten days when he was a whit -- went. We all | :53:10. | :53:22. | |
have scars and it is best ldft unturned of Mr Speaker. It could be | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
a rather destructive process. Looking at a constructive process | :53:28. | :53:29. | |
which has been initiated by the Secretary of State, and this current | :53:30. | :53:37. | |
bill. There is a way forward. And there is a way, just to finhsh at | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
the ends of the question posed by the honourable gentleman. Double | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
devolution has been raised repeatedly by colleagues in all | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
parts of the House and in dhfferent ways. Just to restate, it would be | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
blue Chris, for England to go the way of Scotland where devolttion has | :53:55. | :54:03. | |
taken place and the sucking sound that they used to hear from Mexico | :54:04. | :54:11. | |
to the United States that wd now here in Scotland. That suckhng sound | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
is the sucking of powers, wd do not wish to see that repeated in | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
England. That does mean as ly right honourable friend states th`t there | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
has to be a proper localisation of power if the devolution, bandwagon, | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
and even Lucian is to continue. There are a number -- evolution Of | :54:33. | :54:39. | |
things to put on the record which I would like to do. But I will not do | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
it at length in terms of my new clause is because we have not gone | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
around the house on that prdviously. Just to say, if we are devolving in | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
England. If we have the balls and Scotland, if a majority of peoples | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
votes in England do not count and perhaps ought to be made to count in | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
a different way. If we do sde, as we are seeing an anxiety about the | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
powers of the second chamber, if we have all of those things happening, | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
it doesn't make sense, if wd are going to have a political and | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
constitutional affairs select committee. I can imagine such a | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
thing existed. If we will not have that then perhaps what makes a lot | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
of sense is to have a steadx hum a careful citizen led conventhon which | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
discusses all of these issuds, with party leaders commit at least to | :55:36. | :55:44. | |
give the views of Jesus convention on the floor by draft bills. And a | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
discussion then on where those bills could be taken as. It makes sense to | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
discuss all of these changes with a slightly broader view among what our | :55:56. | :56:02. | |
democracy should look like. The threats Mr Speaker are quitd | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
considerable. Therefore, thd action we need to take should be slipped. | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
And countering those threats and having a review of where ard | :56:12. | :56:19. | |
democracy lies. That is what clauses one, two, three, four and fhve take | :56:20. | :56:26. | |
up the point of there being financial powers to go alongside | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
that. I would like to turn to I a particularly difficult question | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
because it is very detailed. It is one of relating to amendment 27 | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
Which I know the Minister whll be talking to, but I will perh`ps try | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
to tempt him to respond to ly view on where amendment 27 might go. I | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
think there is a great deal of anxiety, because devolution deals | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
are such an important thing if you run a local authority, if you care | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
about local authority, if boundaries are possibly going to changd, is the | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
functions are going to change, is a morality may well be imposed as part | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
of this deal. There may be ` degree of anxiety and worry, in a certain | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
places in the country. About the precise detail of how a devolution | :57:26. | :57:34. | |
deal might work. So, what I would like to do is ensure that when we | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
look at amendment 27, I unddrstand why the government has put ht | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
forward. It doesn't make sense in the government on the terms of. The | :57:43. | :57:49. | |
government is trying to reach a level of flexibility around | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
devolution deals with. But there are difficulties and that there are | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
particular difficulties arotnd Nottingham and Sheffield th`t has | :58:01. | :58:07. | |
been discussed. All I would say is that we are at the very beghnning of | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
a long road. It is not perfdction that we seek now, or today, it is | :58:14. | :58:20. | |
progress. I think we can sedk progress providing that we discussed | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
this in a consensual way. So, the Minister may wish to respond to what | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
I'm going to say now, or hopefully if he does not, then he will after. | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
I would like to say that I `ssured the Minister and the Secret`ry of | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
State would agree with me that any changes in local governments enabled | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
by this bill, must be achieved by local consensus, with relev`nt | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
partners coming around the table to agree a negotiated position. Giving | :58:53. | :59:00. | |
this, and I draw the Secret`ry of State attention and he went affect | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
attention to amendment 27, on the face of it this amendment stggests | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
that districts whose areas form a part of a county could join a | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
different combined authoritx without the need for any negotiation, | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
consensus, or consent by thd County Council. This would be deeply | :59:18. | :59:24. | |
divisive, in many areas and would undermine the very consensu`l of | :59:25. | :59:32. | |
prose at the ministerial te`m of can have consistently stated in this | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
house. Can the Secretary of State or Minister provide the house that the | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
amendment does not give districts of the right to walk away with out | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
local consensus? And that any changes will be done to a | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
negotiation between district and county facilitated if necessary by | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
the Secretary of State. I whll grab gladly give way. | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
I do intend to speak at gre`t length about this issue later but since | :00:02. | :00:08. | |
he's giving an opportunity to do so I would like to be clear th`t the | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
amendment gives any councillen including districts the perlission | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
to request to be removed or added to a combined authority but of course | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will revhew the | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
case but forward by the Council and make a decision whether to go for it | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
but only after, and I can rdassure the House today this'll the case | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
when that any such decision will only be made following constltation | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
and negotiation with relevant parties. Where possible and in all | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
cases we would endeavour to seek and secure that consensus which I think | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
it's characterised many of the discussions we have at any range of | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
places so far and what is so important underpinning the | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
government's approach to devolution. I am sure Madam Deputy Speaker those | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
words will have been heard throughout this chamber but also | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
more important perhaps will have been heard by all those who care | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
about local government, all those impositions of authority and local | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
government and I hope very luch they take the message from this that the | :01:08. | :01:14. | |
government and the House is keen that there should be progress on | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
devolution but that should occur on the basis of consensus, intdraction, | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
negotiation, facilitated by the Secretary of State and the | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
government and I could only add on a personal basis those people who have | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
interacted with the Secretary of State and the Minister will make | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
their own judgements about whether the Secretary of State can be | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
trusted on these matters as far as I'm concerned, the Secretarx of | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
State has got us to this position on devolution and as I mentiondd | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
earlier was not possible under the previous Coalition government and | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
was not possible under the previous labour government. Is a perfection? | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
No. Is a genuine progress? H hope the answer to that is most dvidently | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
yes. I will gladly give way. I'm grateful to my honourable friend and | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
all this consensus can sometimes feel a little bit disconcerting but | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
I think it is a good thing. The fact that the Minister has also set the | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
respective amendment 27 that that consensus would be achieved, this is | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
not about particular councils having been goes or unilateral cap`bility, | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
this is about negotiating process. That for me as I think a very | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
important step that the Minhster has underlined and put on the rdcord. I | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
barely believe that my honotrable friend would be anything other than | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
consensual copied wraps known a little more in recent weeks has been | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
on provisional wing of the Labour Party, I do feel that his innate | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
character is that of seeking consensus and I agree very strongly | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
as I always do that my honotrable neighbour, the Member for Nottingham | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
East and I hope very much that colleagues throughout the UK adopt a | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
similar view and take us forward on this issue. I am grateful to my | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
honourable friend for giving way. On the issue of consensus if the | :03:12. | :03:13. | |
concert of that there are w`s his that are absent from the consensus | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
in the shape of the public who are not always involved or even aware | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
that these kinds of dealings are going ahead and do not their voices | :03:24. | :03:31. | |
need to be somehow captured. I realise it is difficult. I think to | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
an extent their voices have to be captured by those who seek dlected | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
office whether they are in this house or in the localities. But it | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
is really part of that question around a broader democratic | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
settlement in which devoluthon is just one part. It is essenthal that | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
that is not just the great `nd the good as I outline in clauses 1- . | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
Cannot just be the great thd good, it has to be the most tremendous | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
unprecedented outreach on a citizens convention. Even way beyond anything | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
we saw in Scotland either through the referendum campaign. All their | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
own citizens using all the lodern techniques of social media `nd | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
technology of polling of eldctronic polling to actually bring pdople so | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
that they do feel ownership and my honourable friend is absolutely | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
right. Unless we build it and and people feel the proper debate has | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
been had been it can be strdssed and fractured when people feel that the | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
right thing has not been done. I would argue again in a sensd back to | :04:43. | :04:51. | |
clauses 1-4 that a very bro`d-based exercise involving public | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
participation of an unprecedented level will be necessary to settle | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
our democracy over not just the next four years, but in something that | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
will hold for 100 years aftdr that. It cannot be done on the back of | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
some of us making that decision alone. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
going to ask for your advicd on a matter of order I do not know if I'm | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
entitled to be that in a spdech but there are a number of amendlents on | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
the other paper about health and I wonder if you felt we should talk to | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
those matters now or whether we should wait until an actual break? | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
The honourable gentleman asked a perfectly reasonable question. Just | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
for once it is a question which the chair can answer. The answer is no. | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
The matters relating to health are in the next group of which the lead | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
amendment is New Clause nind. So we should discuss health at th`t point | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
and not at this point. In which case I will limit my remarks fin`lly to a | :06:00. | :06:08. | |
brief look at the manuscript amendment 56, which bears mx name. | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
And just to wish it well, in terms of what it seeks to do, it `ppears | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
to me is to have a degree of flexibility and allow that organic | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
growth and development around our devolution proposals which H think | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
is very welcome, but equallx, the Secretary of State needs to be | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
reassured that this process will not drag on forever and I think it has | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
an effect amendment the mantscript amendment if I am right by putting a | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
and date on discussion -- and date copy there's an opportunity a | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
gateway, a window, where colleagues and other local authorities can make | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
representations but that is not going to track on forever. There's a | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
lot of time in which to do that and that seems very appropriate and I am | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
very pleased on that basis to have added my name to the amendmdnt. To | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
the manuscript amendment. There are many other areas because thhs is a | :07:21. | :07:22. | |
very large group of amendments involving issues that I could speak | :07:23. | :07:31. | |
on at some length in terms of 1 and 17-year-olds review of governance. I | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
think it is going to be verx important that as we have ddveloped | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
what are now I believe 34 or so devolution deals, there is ` lot of | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
best practice which by definition you cannot do as you are in process. | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
There's a lot of really good practice about what has been | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
devolved, how it has been ddvolved, how local authorities can use their | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
powers copied it will all bd at different levels and differdnt | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
speeds because again devolution means people doing their own thing | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
not one size fits all that there is certainly a place for a gathering of | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
best practice which can be shared effectively by all of local | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
government so that the next set of deals and the next set of btilding | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
on the pre-existing deals c`n be done in the best way. We do not | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
currently have an institution that can do that despite the excdllence | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
of the officials in the dep`rtment. We do not have what local government | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
might regard as an independdnt institution to take that forward so | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
I would have thought the concept of having a review about this `t an | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
appropriate moment would make a lot of sense. It may not look that way | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
to the Secretary of State who is battling his way through a set of | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
deals with lots of particul`r individuals who have an intdrest at | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
the moment and that can onlx be his main priority, but it could well be | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
that when the dust settles, having some sort of adjunct to the LGA or | :09:01. | :09:09. | |
whatever local government cdntral government, plans to make stre that | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
all the learning from the fhrst set of proposals can be carried onto the | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
next set seems to make a lot of sense. With that Madam Deputy | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
Speaker I am not wishing to use any time. I have drawn my remarks to a | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
close, just by saying that we do have now a set of devolution deals. | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
The Boulder is rolling forw`rd, we need to keep the momentum going and | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
in doing that I hope that everyone in the House will wish the bill | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
well. New Clause one, local government constitutional | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
convention. The question is that New Clause one be read a second time. | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
Minister. James Wharton. Th`nk you Madam Deputy Speaker. I will begin | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
with New Clause one -New Cl`use for which proposed the establishment of | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
a local government constitutional convention. We have the opportunity | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
on the first day of committde to discuss these amendments and as the | :10:13. | :10:14. | |
honourable member for Nottingham North said they include the nuts and | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
bolts of a body put forward by the political and constitutional reform | :10:21. | :10:22. | |
committee which he chaired hn the previous parliament and of course | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
which he has been bringing to the House the great wealth of knowledge | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
that he acquired from sharing during that time and his attention -- and | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
tension has been debarred to ensure that some of that experiencd can be | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
read by anyone who feels th`t be concept of a constitutional | :10:43. | :10:44. | |
convention has something to recommend it to the House. H hope he | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
feels he has been successful in that name. I am certainly enjoying the | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
debates we have had on the hssue and recognise his tenacity and | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
consistency in putting this case before the House. I do not feel that | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
it is necessary to go through in detail every stage of possible | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
effects that New Clause one has but I think it's important to rdcognise | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
that the honourable member has a number of points which draw on that | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
experience and which certainly inform the debate on devolution But | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
as has been the case in previous discussions of committee st`ge of | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
this bill, I am not yet persuaded that we should go as far as to | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
include New Clause one at this time in the bill that we are bringing | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
forward in the steps that wd intend to take today. I will give way. | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker what the Minister confirm that as thd talks | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
make rapid progress concernhng Gotland's money versus the rest of | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
the United Kingdom, it will also be an aim of the government to ensure | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
that England has a blog arotnd which they can choose how to submht. The | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
right honourable Amber attends me to go further than I am able to any | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
specific context of the bill which we are discussing here todax. But | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
again I think he has been more than averagely consistent on this point. | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
He is very clear about his position and he has put it on the record day | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
as he has before and I think it is welcomed that he has done so. Madam | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
Deputy Speaker I would look to be chair for advice as to whether he | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
would like me to not comment on the other causes in this group were time | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
very happy to do but of course I have not heard all of the comments | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
of the honourable members in respect to those causes. On that pohnt is | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
the Minister would care to wait until the end of debate than with | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
the lead of the House I would call him again. I thank you for that I | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
think it would be appropriate and responding to comments when we have | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
had such a productive and hdalthy debate so far. That I am able to | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
respond to specific things honourable members they and I look | :12:48. | :12:49. | |
forward to the opportunity of speaking again as we regressed | :12:50. | :12:58. | |
through this stage. I want particularly to refer to government | :12:59. | :13:08. | |
amendment 27. The proposals for combined authorities I think is a | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
very welcome concept. It is essentially about local authorities | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
coming together where they wish to combine their approach, thehr | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
workings, their functions to deliver better services and hopefully | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
greater economic growth for the residents of their areas. It is an | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
idea that was certainly pioneered in Manchester. The one difference | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
between Manchester and other areas we are looking at is that M`nchester | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
has had a number of authorities who have worked together over a period | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
of time and they happen to be those authorities which were part of the | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
old greater Manchester Metropolitan area. They were the ten districts | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
that formed the old greater Manchester Metropolitan County. So | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
they have always had a sensd of being together and working together | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
over a number of years, but they also are all single or unit`ry | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
authorities who have the abhlity to make their own decisions about how | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
they come together, where they come together and what they do to form | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
the combined authorities. As a relatively simple and easy | :14:17. | :14:18. | |
arrangement in constitution`l terms. The difficult before some | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
areas and I'm going to refer to my own area of Sheffield on is that the | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
constitutional arrangements pare our strikingly difficult. And Sheffield | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
we have the four districts which used to form the old South Xorkshire | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
Metropolitan County that worked together for varying degrees of | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
success since the counties were abolished and they came togdther to | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
form the Sheffield combined authorities. The same is trte to a | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
degree as well in Leeds where you have the five districts there that | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
used to be the West Yorkshire Metropolitan County who havd been | :15:01. | :15:02. | |
working together as a combined authorities. There are however some | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
differences. These differences have been recognised at different times | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
by parties across the House. In Sheffield, there are not merely | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
before districts of South Yorkshire, there are five other districts which | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
are districts that formed p`rt of either Derbyshire County or | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
Nottinghamshire County, the districts of Derbyshire Dalds, | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
Chesterfield, North East Derbyshire, and others. They're not part of the | :15:31. | :15:38. | |
county but are very much part of the local economy of Sheffield of the | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
Sheffield region that travel to work areas. That has been recognhsed in a | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
number of ways. First recognised and I went to the first meeting of | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
council leaders between those nine councils as they are, at thd | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
shopping centre by David Miliband when he was number two in the | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
department copy I think he was the officer deputy at the time `ny | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
called authority together at the time and I thought there was going | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
to be a reaction from the other districts of outside South Xorkshire | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
baking Sheffield big brother was going to take them over. I remember | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
the leader saying that it is good we are involved in this becausd I know | :16:21. | :16:22. | |
that not everyone who lives and balls over what have a job `nd balls | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
over. Many people who work hn Sheffield and have to travel to work | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
there and therefore what happens to Sheffield matters to us how people | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
get their transport from balls of her to Sheffield Manchester | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
afterwards. Was around the table having those discussions and | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
involved in the decision-making process and I think those wdre very | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
wise words which have stood the test of time. The last collision | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
government took a similar approach because when they formed thdy | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
recognise that the historic regional boundaries were not always | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
appropriate. I know the previous Secretary of State had a thhng about | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
regions, and I think you allost had to cross yourself out and ptt money | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
in the square box if you mentioned them. In some respects he w`s not | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
always right damming the regional spatial strategies for everx evil | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
auntie planet. But never thd less I think he had a point. That the old | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
regions do not necessarily properly represent local economies and how | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
areas worked in day to day life One of the fundamental aspects of that | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
is that the districts of Sotth Yorkshire were in the Yorkshire | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
Humber region of the districts in Derbyshire and are the old Dast | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
Midlands region and very often things did not work there bdcause | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
the two regional developer `nd authorities did not always be to | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
each other. That is a fundalental problem for the Sheffield rdgional | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
economy was the last governlent recognised in creating the lets and | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
allowing the let's to be crdated themselves across the old rdgional | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
boundaries to reflect the trouble to work areas and the local sub | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
regional city region economhst. So the last government recognised | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
that. We now have a challenge that so far the districts in opposition | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
and North Nottinghamshire and north of her shirt have been to an extent | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
able to have it both ways -, North Derbyshire. They could still durian | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
as districts of part of the two counties but also on constituent | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
have of the combined authorhty in Sheffield. Ultimately I think | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
however the districts have got to make some sort of choice. Wd are | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
going to have an elected maxor, we have had discussions and ardent | :18:36. | :18:37. | |
about that but we are going to have an elected mayor in the Sheffield | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
city region. Should the people of Chesterfield or any other p`rts of | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
those districts be able to vote for the mayor and Sheffield which is | :18:47. | :18:54. | |
going to cover transport and to deal and be in charge of transport in | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
that area. Or should we havd a situation where they do not vote for | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
the mayor and the mayor therefore only covers part of the trotble to | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
work area with his or her transport responsibilities. That seems to be a | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
logical. We are not therefore getting the point of having a | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
combined authority which re`lly covers the city region and the | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
trouble to work area. Or is it possible the people of Chesterfield | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
to not have a vote for the layor because Chesterfield does not become | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
part of the Sheffield city region combined authority? Yet that mayor | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
under the proposals will be involved in discussions and decision,making | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
about economic developed matters that affect Chesterfield in the even | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
though there in a not that ` part of the combined authority. And | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
individual was not elected by the people of Chesterfield will have a | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
say in what happens in Chesterfield. I do not think that it's actually a | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
reasonable position. But ultimately what the amendment here does is to | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
make sure that in coming to a decision about the long-terl | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
position, about where it thdir authority wants to be, the district | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
of North Derbyshire and North Nottinghamshire will be abld to make | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
their own decision about whdre they think they fit. Where their future | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
lies. Without the County cotncils having a veto over that. I `gree | :20:12. | :20:13. | |
with my honourable friend for Nottingham North hopefully this will | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
be done by consensus and discussion because no one wants Chesterfield to | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
feel it is no longer part of Derbyshire County, any -- for many | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
other purposes and... I will give way. He is making a very powerful | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
argument and he is absolutely right about consensus. Is also right about | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
the fact that businesses do not recognise local authority boundaries | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
so shortly when we're talking about we must opt about devolution on the | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
economic area rather than political areas and there is a danger that we | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
get sucked into political areas rather than economic areas. District | :20:50. | :20:59. | |
council that will have to go to an area you're absolutely right that in | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
the end they should focus on the local economy and what works for the | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
economy in terms of creating jobs and growth and to developing gills | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
and that is absolutely right in making sure the transport lhnks are | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
there to do that. That is why I will ask the Minister to clarify one | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
important point. That ultim`tely there may be a decision for the | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
Secretary of State were admhnistered to make on these matters, it may | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
well be that the districts hn North Derbyshire North Nottinghamshire or | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
some of them decide to go to be Sheffield city region. I hope they | :21:31. | :21:32. | |
do because that makes econolic sense. But it is possible ndver the | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
less bad Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire might want together | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
and other combined authoritx and you could have been a conflict between | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
the two decisions copy I thhnk that point as I understand it with the | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
amendment would be up for the Secretary of State to make ` | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
decision about where the districts went in terms of which combhned | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
authority they joined because they cannot join to. The people know they | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
can not have a boat for two elective merits in different combined | :22:01. | :22:02. | |
authority. I hope when he does that he'll make the decision or hndicate | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
that the key criteria you whll use is to look at what is right in terms | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
of the local economy the pohnt that has just been made copyright in | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
terms of the development of skills, right in terms of the development of | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
economic growth and right in terms of proper transport strategx for | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
those areas. A year with thd honourable member says. We have to | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
do what is right if devoluthon is to be successful it has to recognise | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
those boundaries which are lore as the honourable member for your | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
counsel said more than the political boundaries but the economic and | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
community boundaries that local people want. The secretary of state | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
I am sure in necrotizing wh`tever powers he has from this process when | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
discussing this bill have concluded will look as he had throughout | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
devolution discussions to btild that consensus to ensure that de`ls are | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
done I will stand the test of time that. Blue that is why we'rd doing | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
this devolution bill in the first place of course I will give way I | :23:03. | :23:10. | |
will eat care to think that we will have the selected mass to h`ve | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
powers to relate the police and crime commission is clearly from his | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
example Chesterfield chose to go with Sheffield rather than | :23:19. | :23:20. | |
Derbyshire they would lose the right to vote for the person that holds to | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
account their police force. I am not sure the Secretary of State could | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
take this decision solely on economic powers in a kind of | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
situation. I have not gone down that road at present and I think very | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
sensibly because I think thdre is an avid complication manner on the | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
police and crime commissiondr because clearly you have currently | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
three separate police and crime commissioners covering the Sheffield | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
city region. One for South Yorkshire, one for Derbyshire and | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
one for Nottinghamshire. At some point way down the line, thdre might | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
be consideration to those issues but I think very sensibly, the leaders | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
in the Sheffield combined atthority have decided not to incorporate the | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
police and crime Commissiondr's powers in their devolution deal I | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
think precisely because it would then throw up exactly the sort of | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
further complications that the honourable member has raised and | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
what they have done is to kdep their devolution deal to the economic | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
transport skills and growth issues which are precisely the ones that | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
the Secretary of State will have to be minded to look at partictlarly if | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
there is a decision to be m`de about which combined authority thd | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
district is going to. I would finish on the point Madam Deputy Speaker... | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
Of course I will give way. H am grateful to my honourable friend. I | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
am sure you'll agree with this that we in an extremely complicated | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
country both culturally and economically. One of the thhngs that | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
has bedeviled trying to def`ult the powers to local authorities has been | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
searching for perfect bound`ries. The perfect boundaries do not exist | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
copy does he agree with me that it is better to devolve rather than | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
spend forever looking for the perfect boundaries? Absolutdly and | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
therefore I support the principles of the bill. Having said th`t, if we | :25:10. | :25:20. | |
can do something to improve the devolution process I think this | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
amendment does then I think we should be looking to do that as well | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
because I want devolution to happen but I wanted to work and I think | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
there is a danger to be Sheffield city reason proposals withott those | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
North divers are districts without a 2 reflection of the whole child work | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
area that the devolution wotld not be at economically successftl as it | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
well with those districts joining. I except in the end it is a m`tter of | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
think that that's what this amendment does is to allow those | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
districts to express their own view about where they think their | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
economic future lies without pulling out of the County for services in | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
any way and it allows that to go forward without a veto from the | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
County or without a particular issue of economic devolution with | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
transport powers. It makes ` lot more sense for the Sheffield city | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
region and I think also offdrs the same opportunities for the same way | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
forward for the West Yorkshhre combined authorities and probably | :26:15. | :26:16. | |
for the West Midlands as well. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I | :26:17. | :26:26. | |
should be brief. I am pleasdd to follow the chair of the seldct | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
committee. I thought his clothing line sums up our objective here this | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
afternoon. We want devolution to happen between it to work. H want to | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
speak briefly to new clause eight and amendment 57 and my namd and | :26:44. | :26:51. | |
also touched upon amendment two All of which, I think share exactly that | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
objective. Dealing very bridfly with the question of consent and of the | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
referendum contained in amendment two. It does seem to me that if this | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
process is to work, it is essential that it should have the consent of | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
the people who are going to be governed under these new | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
structures. If the argument can be made for the new structures, and the | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
new form of government, than the government ought to have thd | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
self-confidence to give people a direct say of the changes which are | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
about to be introduced. Frol a greater Manchester perspecthve. I | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
think it is possible that the government can make a case that | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
would persuade people that ` new arrangement should be approved in a | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
referendum. But, the very act of withholding that opportunitx to | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
express their will, that opportunity to show a real consent for what is | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
being done, I think in its self sows the seeds of difficulty and this | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
Court and makes it less likdly that the arrangements I will givd way. | :28:06. | :28:15. | |
And his speech on the 14th of May, the chancellor said, and I puote "I | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
will not impose this model on anyone. " As my honourable friend | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
agree with me the best to demonstrate that local people want | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
the newer system is to hold a referendum. Wholeheartedly. With the | :28:31. | :28:40. | |
new clause and the amendment in my name, on the order paper, I hope | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
that the ministers even at this late hour rule recognise that it is very | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
much in their own interests and in the interest of the governmdnt, and | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
entirely in the interest of the people of the combined authority | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
areas which may face these new arrangement of government. Hn order | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
to accept the point, especi`lly I hope the sterling work that my | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
honourable friend the parli`mentary undersecretary did in the l`st | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
Parliament trying to ensure that people had the opportunity to | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
consent to the arrangements surrounding our membership with the | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
European Union. I know that he recognised it has been entirely | :29:25. | :29:35. | |
consistent given his consensus. New clause eight, which stands `nd my | :29:36. | :29:45. | |
name, is really in tune with the essence of the bill. The very | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
essence of the intentions of the government. Because, there `re very | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
few of us, I think on either side of the house who would argue whth the | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
proposition that it is generally better for power and decisions to be | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
exercised as close to the pdople as possible. It is almost bettdr for | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
the visits to be taken more locally, for spending decishons to | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
be taken more locally. What new clause eight seeks to do is place an | :30:17. | :30:23. | |
extra protection in the bill, safeguard, which would seek to limit | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
the occasions in which the new legislation could be used for | :30:31. | :30:38. | |
devolution in the wrong dirdction. It is not really devolution it is | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
the opposite. Of the capacity which exist and the bill as it st`nds in | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
the present. For powers to be moved up, away from the people. Away from | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
local authorities, which current Lee Wood currently exercise powdrs to | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
the level. It is a very moddst measure which seeks, as I w`s | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
surprised my honourable fridnd endorses that. I was surprised at | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
just how modest it had becole during the course of this process. Perhaps | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
with the endless car to see from the Secretary of State. But, all that | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
new clause eight seeks to do is ensure that that should elect the | :31:26. | :31:33. | |
authority... To the Mayor ldvel There will be a cooling off period | :31:34. | :31:47. | |
the local election must be held This anti-devolution before it can | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
become permanent. I think a modest but important safeguard, I hope the | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
ministers will accept that ht will be and their interests and hn the | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
interest of a good government. Two incorporate that safeguard. Perhaps, | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
most important in this group is amendment 57. I think that's it s | :32:11. | :32:20. | |
almost naturally as a part of a coupled with the proposition for a | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
referendum. If you do not h`ve one of them, it becomes even more | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
important that you do have the other. If the government is not | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
going to convulse the peopld directly on the new governmdnt | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
arrangements that applied to them while riling a referendum, then | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
surely it is more important that the arrangements set up an amendment 57 | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
should be incorporated with the allow local authorities, and the | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
event that the new arrangemdnts don't work, in the interest of that | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
local authority area to seek at a future date to leave. With ` fair | :33:01. | :33:09. | |
distribution of both the li`bilities and the assets of the combined | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
authority, so I have sought to ensure proper fairness. In the | :33:15. | :33:21. | |
eventuality that the local `uthority would reach a point that it was so | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
convinced that the new arrangements were not at its best interests. I | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
think that would just provide, first of all the necessary reassurance to | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
people that this is not a irrevocable step. If it does not | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
work, there is another way. Perhaps most importantly, what it would do | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
is place a real discipline on an elected mayor. Aid of the planet to | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
ensure that the holder of that office would at all times, seek to | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
behave reasonably and to reflect the interest, not just of the m`jority | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
of the area of the May oral authority but of the whole of it. | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
And the risk that an elected mayor may at some point in the future seek | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
to govern in a way that is clearly contrary to the interest of anyone | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
or any part of the accommod`tion would be massively greater hf the | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
bill were to proceed unamended. Again, I very much hope that | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
ministers will recognise th`t the bill will strengthen and improve the | :34:33. | :34:42. | |
provisions and amendment 57. Thank you very much mind that the speaker. | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
I want to speak very brieflx in support of new clause ten. @nd also | :34:49. | :34:55. | |
very briefly a comment on alendment seven. New clause ten seeks to | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
reinstate the provision and of the bill as brought in from the Lord | :35:01. | :35:09. | |
allowing votes for 16 and 17-year-olds and local government | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
elections. Madam Deputy Spe`ker I support as a matter of principle the | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
idea of votes for 16 and 17-year-old. Rather we are talking | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
about national elections, elections and local government, or indeed | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
voting in a referendum. So, I supported the case for 16 and | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
17-year-olds to vote in the Scottish referendum. I have argued the case | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
for 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the European referendum. It is their | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
future ultimately we are debating. I very strongly support the c`se for | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
16-year-old and 17-year-olds to have a say in the election of thdir local | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
counsellor. I find a quite extraordinary that the government | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
seeks to oppose this so strongly. I appreciate that the Secretary of | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
State has on occasions indicated that there is a debate that he had, | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
and there are many other occasions to explore this more fully, but how | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
long does it have to take, what why can we not accept the princhple that | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
16 and 17-year-old who cannot join our armed forces to defend this | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
country, who can marry, who can indeed pay taxes on their income if | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
they are in and work, but c`nnot have a say in how for example those | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
taxes are raised, the extent of them and how they are applied. They ought | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
to have rights as citizens `s the rest of us. I would urge thd | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
government to think further on this. The point is also being madd, we | :36:50. | :36:58. | |
often make the point about low levels of turnout amongst young | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
people who are currently entitled to vote. We talk about low levdls of | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
engagement in the process. H made the point in the previous ddbate on | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
this issue, that young people are very interested in a whole range of | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
political issues. They are dissing gays of the political process, there | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
is no doubt about that. If we are to seek to change that. Having an | :37:25. | :37:32. | |
opportunity to have as they would give them that regard. I thhnk 5% | :37:33. | :37:42. | |
of 16 and 17-year-olds is indicative of a level of interest that the | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
whole government are to recognise. I also make a point again as H did in | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
a previous occasion that David Willis, a well-respected and former | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
minister in the Coalition government has argued the point of a breaking | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
of the generational contract. I think this is a really serious | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
concern. Political parties tend to focus a lot of their attenthon on | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
the interest of other peopld who of course tends to vote. There is a | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
lack of attention I would argue are the interest of young peopld, and | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
particularly the interest of 16 and 17-year-olds who have no bo`t.. | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
I'll be happy to give way. ,- vote. A few seconds ago the honourable | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
gentleman was trying to convince the chamber that 16 and 17-year,olds | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
should be allowed to vote bdcause they'd vote in the Scottish | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
independence referendum. Now we are told that we are nor do bec`use they | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
don't turn out to vote. Can he clarify which argument he would like | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
us to accept. We saw in the Scottish referendum that if one seeks to | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
engage with younger people, they respond. Paid part out in rdcord | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
numbers 75% from a study th`t took place that any referendum for 1 and | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
17-year-olds. I also made the point that there is in this country, I | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
suspect he would probably agree a lack of engagement in the political | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
processes as a whole of young people. It seems to me, that it is | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
incumbent from all of us to change that. To get young people to fill as | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
a part of the process and to participate in it. If you ghve | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
people the right to vote at the age of 16 or 17 years old. Asserts | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
sharpens the mind and focusds their interest because they actually have | :39:43. | :39:51. | |
an opposite the to prospect in the clinical process. He is makhng his | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
argument very well but I want to ask you this question. Does he think | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
there is a place for unelected people in the House of Lords to make | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
a decision on this or should this be reserved to the House of Colmons? I | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
continued to argue very strongly that we should have a Democratic | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
second chamber and we sought to achieve that during the Coalition | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
government. Is sadly, honourable members on his side of the House -2 | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
blocks that very overdue reform I think the honourable member to my | :40:26. | :40:32. | |
right seeks to agree with md from a sedentary position. But we have what | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
we have and if honourable mdmbers opposite and stored in the last | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
parliament that we still have to put up with an unelected second chamber, | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
they have to continue to do the job as best they can. It is a rdvising | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
chamber and I hope that thex will seek to make the argument again | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
that 16 and 17-year-olds should have the right to vote. I hope I have | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
responded adequately to the honourable member opposite, but | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
David Willis made a strong case There is a break in the gendrational | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
con tract. I believe that it is incumbent upon all of us to address | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
this very serious issue and ensure that all political parties start to | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
show a real interest in the interest of young people. And if 16 `nd | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
17-year-old had a vote both at local government level and at nathonal | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
level, there is no doubt at all that political parties would seek to | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
focus more of their attention on the interest of those young people. I | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
will give way. Thank you for giving way. He said at the interest of | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
young people are not properly reflected partly because thdy did | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
not vote. But if we give it to them, even the people who are even less | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
likely to vote, think that hs going to change how government opdrates. I | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
do not understand the logic. What they did not vote. But if wd give it | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
to them, even the people who are even less likely to vote, think that | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
is going to change how government operates. I do not understand the | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
logic. What this this is thd arbitrary line. The current level at | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
which people can start to vote is a arborist to cut off point. We chose | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
to make it at the 18. My argument is that we can reduce it because people | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
at the age of 16 and 17 do `s he rightly said have rights and can | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
play a significant part in society door in the Armed Forces for | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
example. Working and paying taxes on their income. Bearing. Thesd are all | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
significant rights and responsibilities. If they h`ve | :42:41. | :42:42. | |
rights and responsibilities, they ought to have a say in the dlection | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
of and in the election of n`tional authorities as well. If he was | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
charged with a serious offence, would he really wants 16 and | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
17-year-olds serving on a jtry deciding on his guilt or innocence? | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
I would not. I think there hs a level of maturity we are talking | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
about. Drawing that line is an appropriate one. It did not want a | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
16-year-old sitting on a jury deciding if you go to jail for years | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
I suppose you don't let thel play part in the election of the | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
government for the country. I think that is a decisive for the hssue | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
that we are debating today. I repeat my argument, that if we are | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
expecting 16 and 17-year-olds to be able to join the armed forcds, to | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
pay taxes on their income, to marry, these are big responsibilithes and | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
rights. They ought to have ` say in the election of the governmdnt, | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
rather at national or local level rather than being subject to the | :43:44. | :43:51. | |
imposition of... I will givd way. Some of the government membdrs and | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
the arguments put forward bx the other side don't quite stack up | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
Majority is not necessarily to do if you're a. People any age can be | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
deemed as immature. I absolttely agree with the honourable mdmber. | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
The argument opposite could be used by logical extension to denx | :44:16. | :44:24. | |
democracy entirely. Or to ddny trial by jury. I would seek to oppose both | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
of those logical extensions, and to make the case again for 16 `nd | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
17-year-olds to have the right to vote. This bill today, we are | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
talking about having a say hn the election for goodness sake of your | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
local counsellor. If the conservative opposite is thd tube | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
denies 16 and 17 euros with a basic right in they're own local community | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
that I would strongly opposd them on that. I would urge the government, | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
they say that this is an issue that deserves further discussion, I | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
welcome that. But why can they not just get on with it a? And `ccept | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
the principle and legislate for it today? I rise to speak to a | :45:05. | :45:15. | |
amendment two standing in mx name. As a former counsel I want xour | :45:16. | :45:23. | |
attention to my entry. The purpose of the amendment is clear, lainly to | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
ensure that a referendum is held in a combined authority area bdfore any | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
model of governance is about it -- adopted. I hope that they stpport | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
this by putting their names to it. I know that there are a number of | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
other two have some sympathx with it. May I thank the Secretary of | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
State for his current understanding of my concerns, such a generous and | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
fair approach as he is coming from across the house. | :45:54. | :46:01. | |
I would like to extend a trhbute to my honourable friend who has handled | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
by reservations with good htmour and more than a degree of tenachty and I | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
think Hans is seriously -- H thank them sincerely for that. Firstly, | :46:14. | :46:20. | |
this is a local issue of concern, given that my constituency hs part | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
of the greater Manchester area. It has been marred from the eldcted | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
mayor in 2017. There is, no real demand for the elected mayor in | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
2017. There is, no real dem`nd for this animation On the contr`ry, | :46:33. | :46:41. | |
despite my own personal skepticism that I argued in my second reading | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
speech I am prepared to accdpt that perhaps there is some demand, and am | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
perfectly willing to have pdople have their say as the referdnce of | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
the reference of that they can express their views. Of course, the | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
outcome either way is something that I would respect entirely. Although, | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
not wishing to prejudge the outcome of such referendum, I would remind | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
the house that directly elected mayors where every is a memory not | :47:05. | :47:13. | |
to mention a widespread rejdction across the country in 2012. I | :47:14. | :47:20. | |
thought the conservative party was right at the time. That marries him | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
metropolitan areas should bd introduced if there is a referendum. | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
The policy of holding a refdrendum was correct some years ago, I will | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
contend that the opposite of the two have a Democratic division | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
referendum remains equally valid today. Madam Deputy Speaker, my | :47:37. | :47:45. | |
concern is this, I expect understandable to many colldagues | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
who shared experience and local government, and it is this, when new | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
models of local government `re seen to be imposed on areas. Even if | :47:53. | :48:03. | |
Moyer is used, the danger roller copy -- did the danger will lurk. | :48:04. | :48:12. | |
The break-up of centuries-old counties and the formation of false | :48:13. | :48:21. | |
constructs, would aside the quake of the dinosaurs and I was not refer to | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
anybody in this house. He whsh to take a valuable lesson from it. | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
People should feel a sense of belonging to the area and which they | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
live. And furthermore in thd case of this amendment, that should feel a | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
sense of ownership. It is for that reason Madam Deputy Speaker, that I | :48:42. | :48:43. | |
would like to see this amendment banning and my name I will give way | :48:44. | :48:51. | |
briefly. What I'm trying to work out is what the honourable membdr is | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
trying to achieve. The government has made it very clear that | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
devolution deals as the goal said it will go ahead with an electdd mayor. | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
Is a something that she is working on that at the population ttrns down | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
the referendum and the whold dualism deal will fall? -- devolution. And | :49:09. | :49:16. | |
is not to ensure that they fail but that the mayor is a prerequhsite to | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
such a deal. As I dry my relarks to a close, Madam Deputy Speakdr I | :49:23. | :49:29. | |
would like to see some in mx name been part to the bill. Thank you | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
very much modelled Deputy Speaker. I want to go through something that | :49:37. | :49:45. | |
was proposed today. The honourable member makes previous points, I wish | :49:46. | :49:53. | |
to highlight new clause one, two, four, and six. The local government | :49:54. | :50:02. | |
is entirely devolved, this Parliament has those skilled in that | :50:03. | :50:10. | |
matter. And new clause six, he wishes to meet local councils and | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
England equipment to the Scottish Parliament, but I feel it is not | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
appropriate. They are not the same things. The Scottish Parlialent is a | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
Parliament rather than being a local authorities. They are very | :50:23. | :50:25. | |
different. I think the Arbor lady is misunderstanding the. I need to | :50:26. | :50:33. | |
clarify. -- honourable Lady. I am not equating local authoritx with | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
the Scottish Ottoman. I welcome the Scottish Parliament, it is one of | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
the labour parties greatest achievement. Often without the | :50:43. | :50:51. | |
cooperation of the SMP have created a magnificent institution. H have a | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
degree of jealousy that the powers that have gone to Scotland puite | :50:55. | :51:01. | |
rightly are not coming fast enough to England of us and the rest of the | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
Union, if we we are unionists, we think the good things that can | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
happen in a country can happen in all countries of the Union. LAUGHTER | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
thank you very much, I'm not sure that he includes the in the | :51:16. | :51:24. | |
statement... . I would say that because she is elected not to the | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
union Parliament. This is not the Scottish Parliament so all of us the | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
cure as part of the union P`rliament in Westminster. The point and a new | :51:33. | :51:41. | |
clause five is that the imp`ct gives them the same physical... That does | :51:42. | :51:53. | |
seem to me as if he has a comparison between the two. I am not qtite | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
convinced that that is appropriate. New clause ten as a member from | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
north of no-fault has so eloquently put, I think it is a sand that the | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
government does not take thd opportunity to at least tri`l this | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
in the local government. I think it is a worthwhile trial. It would be | :52:14. | :52:21. | |
nice at least if they were rolling on this occasion to at least try it | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
here. I think it is something very much worthy of examination. It has | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
worked well in Scotland, thd 16 and 17-year-olds were given the vote, | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
and have remained engaged. Those who are younger than 16 and 17, had a | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
greater interest in the democratic process as a result. They p`id | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
attention, as we said earlidr the bar has to be set somewhere. 16 I | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
think is their reasonable place to put it. It has worked well hn | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
Scotland. I would very much encouraged to happen here. New | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
clause 12, it does seem reasonable to review how the NHS is trdated in | :53:01. | :53:08. | |
the devolution deal. That sdems fairly reasonable. The honotrable | :53:09. | :53:16. | |
member and amendment 58 and two I have a lot of sympathy for his | :53:17. | :53:22. | |
comments. I think some of the evidence that we have heard | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
suggested that they are not being fair to local government. I have a | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
lot of sympathy for the point that he makes. Glasgow deal did not | :53:35. | :53:52. | |
require any circumstance. The stage was given to that prospective | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
committee stage. Finally, alendment number three, on the supplelentary | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
vote system, I am not sure that the supplement to both of them hs the | :54:05. | :54:13. | |
best system for electing anxbody. I certainly believe that the system is | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
an ideal system in terms of a democracy. I cannot quite | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
understand, perhaps more explanation. The majority of | :54:25. | :54:34. | |
research suggest that that hs the fairway of electing people to any | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
system of government. Thank you very much for your time. On this Madam | :54:38. | :54:39. | |
Deputy Speaker. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I | :54:40. | :54:54. | |
rise to speak to amendment 46 on the government amendment to amended 56. | :54:55. | :55:02. | |
Though I have put my name to the amendment the original proposal came | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
from right honourable friend the Member for Carlisle who apologises | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
for not being here. The House will appreciate his constituency is very | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
badly affected by the floods over the weekend to. On his behalf, Madam | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
Deputy Speaker, the point I want to make is that this is a very modest | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
change that gives better fldxibility both for the government and for the | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
local immunity is. In a county where there is a clear wish for change, | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
this can be achieved in a mtch more efficient manner, and one whthout | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
too much delay. The amendment seeks to build on the existing legislation | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
for changes and boundaries. Madam Deputy Speaker this is not ` radical | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
change but it will make easher changes that both government and | :55:55. | :55:57. | |
local people support. At my honourable friend the Member for | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
Carlisle hopes that these changes may emerge for his own county of | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
Cumbria where they are badlx in need and are widely supported throughout | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
the county and could improvd local government and indeed lead to cost | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
savings. I note that in his comments the honourable gentleman for the | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
Member for not North spoke hn favour of this particular amendment and I | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
hope that settlement will also be expressed by the opposition front | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
bench and that we can procedd on this by consensus. With that Madam | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
Deputy Speaker I hope the House can support that amendment. Thank you | :56:36. | :56:44. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to support on the the amendments by my | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
honourable friend the Member for Hazel Grove and to try and get more | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
information to the Arbor lady as to why I am in favour. Let me start | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
very briefly with referenduls where I have attached my name to `mendment | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
to. It seems to me that there is a developing, slowly developing theory | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
of referendums in this country that fits in with the parliament`ry | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
democracy. That those of us who sit in this house and approve of the way | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
our Constitution works. A great affection for the understanding that | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
we are representatives, not delegates, that we are here to | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
exercise sovereignty on beh`lf of the people for a five-year period | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
before returning it to them in toto at the end of that period. That is | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
the well-established constitutional position. But against that, I think | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
in sympathy with that there is a developing view where referdndums | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
are useful and moving from tseful to becoming essential. That is to do | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
with the structures of government themselves. And the reason for that | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
is that there is a permanency in the structures of government th`t | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
outweighs the normal level of legislation that we deal with. It is | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
quite right that Scotland h`d referendums on its decisions on | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
independence and indeed on establishing a parliament in the | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
first place, he cause those are effectively permanent decishons your | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
reversible without the consdnt of the Scottish people. Unchangeable | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
without a consent of the Scottish people. Likewise in Wales they have | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
had referendums on their assembly and in Northern Ireland also. When | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
looking at local councils and changes, if the structures `re to | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
work, they need to go with the grain of popular consent. That authority | :58:39. | :58:45. | |
when it is used needs to have a legitimacy and that legitim`cy is | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
based in Democratic consent. I think where that is not given as was the | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
case in the 1972 act, that there was a great deal of hostility to what | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
was done because it did not meet the requirements of local peopld. | :59:00. | :59:07. | |
Against this, evolving doctrine of referendums there is inevit`bly the | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
government's view of referendums which I perhaps unfairly | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
characterised as being we all have referendums that we think whll win | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
them but if we think we will not win them it is a bit too dangerous so we | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
will not take the risk. I think it is a pity that the government has | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
not taken the risk with these new structures because if you look at | :59:25. | :59:30. | |
the Mayor of London. The Maxor of London has enormous popular consent | :59:31. | :59:33. | |
even when it was Ken Livingstone let alone now it is a great man my | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
honourable friend the Member for Uxbridge. I give way. I am very | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
grateful to my honourable friend at the London example is a casd in | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
point because that system of rally was done and assented to by the | :59:49. | :59:54. | |
population passed the referdndums. Exactly the point I was makhng and | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
that is why there has been `ffection for the merit even for people who do | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
not share their political dot I voted against having a Mayor for | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
London. I thought another ther of government was quite unnecessary and | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
we already have far too manx but because it had a referendum, the | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
referendum was one. There is a legitimacy. The great city that I | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
neighbour, the city of Bristol elected a mayor having decided to do | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
so through a referendum. Thdrefore the people of Bristol have hnvested | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
in that and given legitimacx to that stop me I cannot think of anything | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
worse than having an elected mayor covering Somerset and I would oppose | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
it to and nail. I think the watchwords will be Somerset will | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
fight and Somerset be right. Of course I will give way. I stggest | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
something that might be worse to him is that the outcome of his `mendment | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
might not be -- might be th`t there will not be a mayor but there may | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
still be a new combined authority with the devolved powers behng run | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
by a sort of the era of leaders of other councils was local people will | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
have no direct say to the policies of. If I may Madam Deputy Speaker | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
you will indulge me momentarily I will compare that to the Cotncil of | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
ministers and context of thd European Union with democratic | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
legitimacy to ride from its constituent parts whereas a mayor | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
and those without a referendum to my mind lacks that fundamental | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
legitimacy. It is more like the president of the European | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
commission. I think he is moving away from legitimacy by havhng a | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
system that has not imposed -- has an imposed merit rather than one | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
that is supported. Just to continue that debate does he not join me in | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
having some concerns that pdople who will be taking the decision and | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
spending that money exercishng that power will not have been eldcted for | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
that purpose but for some vdry different position on a verx | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
different authority that max be a very very much smaller scald. I do | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
not accept that. I am not a big is a good advocate. I think that small | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
can well be viewed. The be individual leaders of counchls are | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
at the doubters of the interest of the population who has chosdn a man | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
they are in their way like lembers of Parliament that they represent a | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
specific area, a specific interest and can come together with combining | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
that with others to see how decisions can be made. I sedn a lack | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
of democracy in a group comhng together, each one of whom have an | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
individual mandate. Indeed that can be a better Democratic mand`te than | :02:28. | :02:36. | |
having a Mayor. I am enjoying his speech very much and followhng it | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
closely. He may be interestdd to know and may already be aware that | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
in greater Manchester which is really the point of origin of many | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
of the things we are discussing today, the combined authority has | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
actually worked and struck nearly well and those elected council | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
leaders have worked together very well -- worked extraordinarhly well. | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
It seems very odd to many of us that we move from the structure which is | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
working well to which nobodx has any objections to the imposition of a | :03:06. | :03:07. | |
completely different structtre without proper concern. I al in | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
agreement with my horrible friend. I think that in imposing structures | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
does not give them legitimacy, what gives them legitimacy is th`t they | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
should go from the ground upwards. I think is of a fundamentally | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
conservative view of how government is construct did. It is the little | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
battalions coming together to do big things, jointly. Rather than a | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
hierarchal system saying we know what is best for you. That hs the | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
average of the honourable l`dy - ladies and gentlemen, the socialist | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
approach as it is once again a Socialist party is about telling | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
people what to do and giving them the figure to do it. Where hs the | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
conservative illusionary approach is to allow able to come together, each | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
one of them legitimately can do it and accept his point that combined | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
authorities have worked by consent and do not necessarily need mayors | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
but on them, super manors or Metro mayors put on top of them. Hf they | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
have this done without referendum then we will be back here in 20 | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
years' time and I very much hope the honourable gentleman is still here | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
in years' time so we can discuss these important matters. Of quest I | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
give way to the honourable gentleman. -- of course I ghve way. | :04:23. | :04:30. | |
I have a better chance at strviving a long number of years and H am | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
taking a gamble year, but I have a better chance if we keep thd NHS out | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
of his and the Tory hands! Keep the NHS public and I have a chance of | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
making it! I do not think the prime minister had any intention of making | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
me secretary of state for the National Health Service but now he | :04:53. | :04:54. | |
has heard from the honourable gentleman. But we will come back to | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
the legitimacy of these changes if they do not have referendums copy | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
over the government may well push it through, may well order these mayors | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
to be appointed, if there is not that validation to referendtms the | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
component parts of these super areas will chase. They will say wd are | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
paying taxes to pay for the centre of a city we have no real lhnk to. | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
They will say we would rathdr have a system where we run from Whhte | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
weren't banned by these people in the town hall year with whol we have | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
no real link. But the referdndum lock fits with the grain of the | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
developing referendum. Government that this country now has and will | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
ensure that the process is lore successful in the long run. I am | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
really think that in opposing this amendment the government is probably | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
being short-term and I promhsed the honourable in that I would come on | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
to the amendment and why I put my name through. I am very grateful | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
that my honourable friend the Member for a logo for both it and had he | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
not done so I would put on ly own motion to do this. I believd in | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
first past the days as the fairest election system. I think yot get | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
what you vote for rather th`n what you do not vote for. You get what | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
you most like rather than what you least dislike. Andy fundamental | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
problem with proportional sxstems is that nobody gets what they `ctually | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
wanted. Everybody gets something else because the boats go off and | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
all sorts of different directions whereas dot of course I givd way. | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
Does the honourable gentlem`n feel that the 50% of people in Scotland | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
who voted for non-separatist parties got what they will thought they were | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
getting in getting only thrde members of Parliament representing | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
50% whereas the other 50% got 5 members of Parliament? The | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
honourable gentleman makes ly point for me that they got exactlx what | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
they wanted. A referendum that decided they would remain p`rt of | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
the United Kingdom and then voted champions took come here to | :07:07. | :07:08. | |
represent the constituency by constituency that about first past | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
the post work. I wish they had all done conservative it is a great | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
shame they did not. By the system worked effectively to represent what | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
most people in Scotland wanted. Sadly most people in Scotland did | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
not want the Conservatives to have 56 MPs here. How this aberr`tion | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
could have come about I do not know and I am sure in time it will | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
change. But it was indeed worth in 1997. Actually the majority in each | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
consistency where at least ` plurality and eight each | :07:46. | :07:47. | |
constituency got exactly wh`t they voted for and not one of thd other | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
three unionist parties in those constituencies was able to compete | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
with that and that seems to be perfectly fair. Of coarse I give | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
way. With the honourable melber agreed that the only reason that | :07:59. | :08:09. | |
violent party is present is due to proportional representation from the | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
Scottish Parliament? I think that would be untrue I would be `ccused | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
of misleading the House. I think it has to do with the fact we have a | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
fantastic leader of the Conservatives in Scotland and we | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
have an inspired secretary of state and that two of them combindd to | :08:27. | :08:28. | |
make conservatism in Scotland becoming forced. -- the comhng up | :08:29. | :08:36. | |
for. But that is strained from the main topic -- straying as to why | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
first past the post is a verbal system because I think it is | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
important to have a victory for the most popular rather than thd least | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
unpopular. It encourages thd most charismatic figures to stand, it | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
encourages people to have a strong party affiliation to stand `nd that | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
is important. I am not a grdat believer in having huge numbers of | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
independence of running our great cities. I think there is a danger to | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
that that if you take peopld outside the party system they do not have a | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
particular badge to stand whth copy it is not clear of the outsdt what | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
they represent other than independent. And they have no format | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
in terms of who to get in touch with who is more senior in the political | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
system to guide them. I am very grateful to the honourable lember | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
for giving way and I totallx disagree with everything he is | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
saying. Does he not think that there is a risk that with first p`st the | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
post and local government one can end up with a complete 1-party state | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
as has happened in some libdral Democrat councils, some conservative | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
councils and indeed some labour councils and the result of that is a | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
rotten borough with very poor local government and no accountabhlity at | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
all? The right honourable gdntleman makes a very important point that | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
having one party in office forever can create its own difficulties But | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
I think with a mayor that is less likely to happen than actually with | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
a local counsel with individual counsellors because a mayor stands | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
as both a party figure and `s an independent figure. If we look at | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
the mayoralty for London th`t is undoubtedly the case and th`t the | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
conservative and Labour figtres have fought successfully have actually | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
done so by being semi detached from their parties and building tp their | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
personal following and I thhnk that would have in other places but it | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
clarifies this and it is more straightforward if you have first | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
past the post and whoever is the most popular Wayne's. And I also | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
think to go back to the devdloping theory of referendums, it is what | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
the rich people voted for btt we have a great referendum joining the | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
cast during the Coalition government of which the honourable gentleman | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
was a very distinguished part. In that referendum... They said they | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
did not want the alternativd vote system, they wanted to stick to | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
first past the post. I think for a government that has an opportunity | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
to correct what was put in previously to go with what the | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
electorate not only wants btt voted for, is fundamentally democratic and | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
proper and it ties in neatlx with the original period I was dhscussing | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
at the beginning of referendums that what is the right of the people is | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
to decide who governs them, to decide the structures of government | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
and how they relate to them. Then, the individual members, the mayors, | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
the counsellors are entitled to operate the levers between dlections | :11:47. | :11:48. | |
but how they vote, for whom they vote, for the regions for which they | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
vote ought to be determined by referendums. We have had ond in | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
support of first past the post, we have had one supporting a m`yor for | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
London and it mayor for Bristol I think it is a mistake to ignore the | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
very ghost of those votes and an error not to people the right to | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
vote on their own instructors in future. Before I call the ndxt | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
honourable gentleman I would just gently remind the honourabld | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
gentleman for Bolsover I do not want to interrupt him when he was in such | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
rhetorical form in his intervention. Matters concerning the health | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
service come in the next group of amendments. The House very luch look | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
forward to what he has to s`y then but that will be after we h`ve | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
finished this group of amendments having heard Sir Edward Lee. Of | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
course it is a pleasure to follow my honourable friend for North East | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
Somerset with whom I normally agree. I quite understand his enthtsiasm | :12:54. | :13:03. | |
for referendums. Which in one sense surprises me because it | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
traditionalist like my honotrable friend for North East Somerset would | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
normally have opposed the concept of referendums. He would have opposed | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
it in the past because it w`s felt at this point it has been m`de many | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
times in the House of Commons, it was a fundamentally on parlhamentary | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
device and will often be usdd by governments which are dictatorships | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
to actually impose extreme changes on society but I understand where my | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
honourable friend is coming from the because in recent years refdrendums | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
have been seen as a fundamentally conserve with a small seed force | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
because generally the peopld vote against change. I understand his | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
argument and why the governlent are wary of accepting any amendlent or | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
voting a referendum because they have looked at what has happened in | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
the past particularly in thd Northeast were the people h`d voted | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
against change and the government allowed to charges forward `nd they | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
fear that if there is a proposal for a referendum than usually the people | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
will vote no. I think it's ` very interesting argument. At thd | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
argument I want to really dwell on and stress relates to the alendment | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
number 56 proposed by my honourable friend Berkeley and normallx I agree | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
with him on most things but I have to say on this became a casd in the | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
amendment concerns me. I want to make a few points to give the | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
Minister an opportunity to reply to the sort of situation we have in | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
Lincolnshire. My honourable friend represents northeast Lincolnshire | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
and I represent Lincolnshird. Lincolnshire is a very consdrvative | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
town the with a small seed County, so conservative that in the games | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
were contingency I'm proud to represent we have only had three MPs | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
and 90 years and all three have been conservative. Day to not like change | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
in Lincolnshire. And what they are wary about is a notarized or voting | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
in this amendment and I nothced right unusually the governmdnt | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
appears to have accepted thd amendment and it is quite unusual | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
that a backbencher comes forward with and amendment and the | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
government excessive. What H think we are worried about in Lincolnshire | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
and other rural constituenches as we want to concede by consent would | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
seem to me to be an admirably conservative point of view. Normally | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
if you proceed by consent you have to deal with the tried and tested, | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
you have to bring things forward with you. I think many people and | :15:46. | :15:53. | |
references are to be made bx to this of the evidence of the 1970s where | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
ageing counties were swept `way Different enthusiasm spent, perhaps | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
not in favour of elected maxors or referendums were unitary authorities | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
but it was all in terms of efficiency. And we now know that | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
this drive towards efficiency actually was fundamentally wrong and | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
popular -- unpopular imposed Whitehall centralist ideas on what | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
local people wanted. I see ly honourable friend who represents | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
Beverly is here and before he created the Lucas County of | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
Humberside -- Lucas County of Humberside destroying Lincolnshire | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
East Yorkshire what matters. We know that is not the right appro`ch and I | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
am not talking as a conserv`tive not just a party politician but somebody | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
who tries to understand conservative values to concede with great caution | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
and to take people with him in this matter. Because now elected mayors | :16:54. | :17:02. | |
are all the rage but a few xears ago police and crime commissiondrs were | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
all the rage. At me look at it. . Low turnout, lack of interest and | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
not necessarily democratic accountability. In Lincolnshire we | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
have a County Council which is generally well-run, popular, has | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
been in place for 130 years. We have the district councils which have | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
been in place for over 40 ydars I have to say, it is not for le to | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
speak for local counsellors in Lincolnshire but as they cannot be | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
in this place have only got me to say this and therefore I hope they | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
do not mind if I do say that we do not want a solution impose on us. | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
What worries us about this `mendment and be ready government accdptance | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
of it is that at the moment we had the County Council and the district | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
councils I think recognise that in terms of unitary authorities | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
selected mayors devolution, we do not want to have a bruising battle | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
over many years between the district councils and the County councils are | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
doing on what should be abld -- abolished. What we really w`nt to | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
proceed by as by consent. Wd want to get together, we are very h`ppy with | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
ideas for the central government to devolve more powers into a County | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
Lake Lincolnshire but we represent -- we recognise that we are not | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
Lincolnshire Birmingham or London. We are a large and quite poor county | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
with a low rate base, with ` very scattered population. There is no | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
question that we could run the NHS or anything like that. We are not in | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
that business. What we really want is to leave the present strtcture in | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
place with district councils with counter councils and perhaps form a | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
new body which will all be represented and onto that ndw body | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
we would accept new powers. This is a sort of way that we want to | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
proceed by consent. What worries me with this amendment and so luch of | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
the discussion we have had so far is that in our rush for change and | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
innovation we may actually `rrive Rush said on what local people and | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
local counsellors want and date generally being sensible knowing the | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
area want to proceed slowly, cautiously and I consent. Whth that | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker I feel I have made my argument and I will let | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
others come in because I am sure they'll be far more than myself -- | :19:33. | :19:41. | |
far more interesting. I dis`gree with both the honourable melbers. I | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
always thought if I should disagree with the member of North East | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
Somerset eyes of the down and think again but in this particular case... | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
I think there's a different case when you're selecting an individual | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
who has quite significant powers that we should try to make sure they | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
are present a large version of the boat that you can get from first | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
past the post. I think that members would not want to see some dxtremist | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
when a powerful mayoralty on some fluke election where there `re 4 | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
candidates. Ifex pact that hs unlikely but that would... H'm sure | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
the people of France having seen their election results over the | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
weekend are glad that when they get to their presidential electhon they | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
have a runoff and if the front were doing on the first round th`t is to | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
put in a non-extreme presiddnt. When selecting an individual to have our | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
I'm not sure first past the post is the right answer and we shotld have | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
the system currently used for London mayor and police commissiondrs where | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
there is a runoff done throtgh the original votes to make sure that the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
post Matt Winston of command 50 of the vote. I also disagree whth him | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
that actually not having eldcted mayor is the least worst bit here. | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
If we're going devolve signhficant amounts of money and power to a new | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
body that body needs to be accountable directly to the people | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
and we need to actually havd people standing for that being elected for | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
that on the basis of how thdy would use that power and the monex. I am | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
just not convinced that when people let a leader of a district council | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
with a small ?10 million budget which mainly does planning `nd | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
refuse collection they would be thinking in that election that the | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
Hardy I am voting for year or counsel which is the leader who will | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
effectively be one of the ones with a veto over this new super body that | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
covers in my area at least two counties. I do not think th`t is | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
accountable to the people at all. I think it is bad for democracy and | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
regressed recreating the police of 30 model that we do not think worked | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
the aunt and much larger sc`le of more powers I think that wotld be a | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
retrograde step for the accountability are considerdd that | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
have looked people over counties. That is why I would not support that | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
amendment. I want to speak on the amendment 56 on the amendment 5 6I'm | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
right honourable 27. IM a stpporter of this devolution to English | :22:06. | :22:07. | |
regions and I think the honourable member for Sheffield Southe`st may | :22:08. | :22:16. | |
be right argument that I might Nottinghamshire and Derbyshhre we do | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
not have a long-standing job be that people identify with and thhnk that | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
a natural body of government I can identify with. I think we h`ve to | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
proceed here quite carefullx and make sure we do produce the bodies | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
of government the people do identify with and we'll say yes I can see a | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
coherent natural fit. That hs where I look to for these decisions to be | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
taken. I think he is right hn saying there may be some parts of North | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
Derbyshire and Nottinghamshhre who may think they're better suhted to | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
the Sheffield region rather than the Nottinghamshire one. I am pretty | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
second beyond the running, not probably see that the quite firmly | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
and painting it should be somewhere else that I think it is quite right | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
that individual local distrhcts have the Democratic say and can say we've | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
represent our people here. We think the right ways for us to be is in | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
that region and if a failurd but should happen there should not be a | :23:16. | :23:17. | |
Beta of command higher authorities that comes as a different | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
geography. Clearly in exerchsing that right and making that decision | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
the Secretary of State should try to achieve consensus and think of the | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
broader picture and make sure we are not achieving some strange `nd | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
erratic situation where the people of Bolsover if they chose to go into | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
Sheffield certainly have no say of their own police force becatse that | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
is now handled by the electdd mayor I think we need to proceed with | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
caution on what powers go to these mayors. If they're going to be | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
mainly economic powers and dconomic interest perhaps they could | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
transport and not let the elected mayors become the replacement for | :23:55. | :23:56. | |
the police commissioner if `re going to area their job. I think that | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
could be a dangerous gap and even though I know that they're puite | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
keen to replacing the PCs sdes I am not sure how you would elect one | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
person to hold to account two different police forces copx that | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
seems a bit strange on holdhng tube different bodies to account on. . | :24:16. | :24:24. | |
I think everything about thd geography we ought to have ` proper | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
thought and not just rely on some historic centuries-old setup of | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
government bounties that perhaps do not make sense and the modern world | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
-- boundaries. I think it is important that we step back and | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
think what does a good systdm of local government look like hf we are | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
going to have this extra te`rs because I am not sure many of our | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
constituents will think this or having four different tiers of | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
government. My constituents is already elect 21 downtowns whereas | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
45 lower towns as they like to County Council to the Countx Council | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
with more than 60 counsellors. I'm not sure there will too fancy | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
electing a new mayor and another tier and paying for that as well. | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
I'm not sure many of them understand very well what functions all those | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
pre-tears already have and what the fourth one on top ado and they | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
probably think that all those four have some role largely becatse that | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
features quite large in most of the elections that we will see. I think | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
if we're going to have this devolution we ought to step back and | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
think actually is that a sustainable effective and efficient system of | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
local government that our constituents can understand and | :25:35. | :25:36. | |
support or should we take this as the driver to have a look at | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
changing that system or havd having unitary councils with the ndw | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
elected mayor for a larger region and that is why I do welcomd | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
amendment 56 that I put my name to which would make it easier where | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
there is some level of consdnsus in the area to have those new tnits | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
being created. But it would not allow one small district across to | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
counties to block the whole thing and reject having unitary atthority | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
if there was a consensus th`t should be what should be proceeded with. | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
I'm not sure of the directing of this amendment allowing Secretary of | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
State to create only one cotnsel it seems a bit perverse and Derbyshire | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
for one of the nine districts to be in favour and the County Cotncil are | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
on the other eight districts to be against and Secretary of St`te | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
having that power. I would certainly say that where the majority of | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
districts and the County Cotncil are in favour or when the Secretary of | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
State could use that power to create unitary authorities which I think | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
would be more efficient cost effective and overall more | :26:36. | :26:37. | |
effective. I do welcome that would appear to be excepting a minute 56 | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
with that change. Perhaps m`ybe in the Lord that they do accept it I | :26:44. | :26:45. | |
can only think of one authority consenting have quite the rhght | :26:46. | :26:53. | |
model... Other than that I will commend amendment 56 to the House | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker I have to say I am very concerned about amendment 36 | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
and that the government's acceptance of the. Object subject to the | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
amendment a. The bridge is why I am concerned go back sometime. 20 years | :27:11. | :27:17. | |
ago, I was a member of the local governments commission during the | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
period of privileged to be ` member of this house. I was serving on that | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
local commission. That commhssion was looking at structures of local | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
government and England. It was looking at what the councils should | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
switch from being to tier to begin to treat. The method we adopted in | :27:37. | :27:44. | |
those days was to invite local people to submit evidence to invite | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
the local councils to submit evidence and to hold public | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
inquiries and hearings into that evidence. It was very much ` | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
bottom-up process. It was something that was decided by consensts in the | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
local government commissiondd and then the local Government commission | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
and of submit recommendations to the government which were abducted by | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
Parliament if they involve changes. -- adopted. In the area of the | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
country that I represent now, there was a very lively debate whdther or | :28:22. | :28:30. | |
not a pool should become a tnit terry authorities. And whether or | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
not the Dorset County Counchl should remain a County Council with a | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
tier system operating in thd rest of the county. In the end, what was | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
agreed was that that pulled will become a separate authority, .. | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
That the whole of Iraq remahnder of the County Council would be to tear | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
with Dorset County Council Dublin with demand services such as | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
education and social servicds. And the borough councils dealing with | :29:04. | :29:11. | |
services which were closest to the people. Madam Deputy Speaker, and | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
nothing that has happened in the 20 years since then leads me to believe | :29:16. | :29:24. | |
that people have Dorset are other than content with the current | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
arrangements. I was told whdn there is all this talk about the | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
possibilities of change, behng forced to use the government, I was | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
assured by my friend that nothing would happen to change things in | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
Dorset unless it had the wholehearted consent of the | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
Council's concerned. On that basis, when there was a half-baked proposal | :29:53. | :29:59. | |
which can forward pool, with a on what to try and set up a new | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
combined unit Terry of authority incorporating Ishtar said in a, | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
obviously that proposal would not have worked because Dorset County | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
Council were saying with yot not think that is going to work because | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
it would mean a part of our area, which enables us to be able to | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
provide good services, would be taking away from us and no longer be | :30:30. | :30:40. | |
included Dorset County. The line was no need to worry, because nothing is | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
going to be imposed from thd centre. This is very much something that is | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
only going to come up from the bottom. That is what we werd up | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
until today. We been had thhs amendment 56 which was put down on | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
the order paper, I I assumed they had not gotten the support of the | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
government, and had not applied by mind into thinking we would have to | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
oppose the. I assumed it was going to be opposed by the governlent | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
Very much to my amazement, H find there is a manuscript amendlent | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
would suggest that the government is accepting this amendment. Albeit on | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
the basis that it would onlx be operative until the 31st of March, | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
2019 what's happened to coincide with the end of current perhod for | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
District Council. All the dhstrict councils which were collectdd in the | :31:34. | :31:41. | |
last May elections, would expire at the end of March 2019. That is the | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
amendment that the government has. We have not got any details on the | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
government has to the criteria that they are going to use in order to | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
exercise the very significant power which they will have to intdrvene | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
against the wishes of one or more of the local councils in Dorset. Of | :32:02. | :32:11. | |
course I give Wade. While the Minister is listening. It would be | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
opened to minister to intervene to make clear that in a situathon like | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
Lincolnshire in Dorset, that we should only proceed to power by | :32:21. | :32:28. | |
consent. Of course it would be. I understand that I have been told | :32:29. | :32:35. | |
privately that the government is neutral. They have no agend` to try | :32:36. | :32:44. | |
and create a unitary authorhty. I thank the Honorable member. And take | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
the opportunity has presentdd to confirm it is indeed the intention | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
of the of the government to build a consensus. When I got to impose | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
changes on every it that do not want to. The idea that we have bden | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
persuaded by the amendment that has been brought forward the error and | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
should not be prevented frol being part of devolution bills. Wdre | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
looking to build that consensus and not impose Which have the | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
flexibility to make sure we can deliver the deals deals that local | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
people want. Cash he explained how he is going to deal with thd | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
situation, for example in Dorset? You have the County Council, wishing | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
to retain control over the `rea at which it currently governs. If one | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
or more of the Council, the district councils in that area, wishdd to | :33:40. | :33:51. | |
enter into a unitary arrangdment, who is going to prevail? Is going to | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
prevail? Isn't going to be Council going to be the will of the borough | :33:55. | :34:03. | |
councils? And I have in my constituency at number of | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
counsellors who are both on the borough and County councils. To | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
which group is the government going to pay heed? Is the goal ard they | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
going to say it because there is no agreement, there cannot be `ny | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
progress? Which I understood was the government's policy. Of course we | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
want to find that consensus. As tempted as I am to discussing it? , | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
there is no... Any sort of rule that would allow districts to determine | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
what happens. We want to talk with local areas, the representation from | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
those every is an of course for Honorable members representhng those | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
every is to build a consensts to how was the best go forward with this | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
process. Secretary of State will apply tested this. I am gre`t. He -- | :34:57. | :35:11. | |
great. He a few months ago, it was very much this is going to be a | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
bottom-up, driven by a local council. If they want to ch`nge | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
then they would be able to. Now we're told that nobody will be able | :35:21. | :35:30. | |
to... To ultimately be the government that will beside this. | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
This is a very significant change of government policy. Announced and a | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
form of a manuscript amendmdnt to amendment 56. I think it is terribly | :35:41. | :35:48. | |
important. What I think my friend is looking for, is an assurancd that if | :35:49. | :35:59. | |
either Dorset County, Countx Council does not want changed, effectively | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
that would be a veto. The s`me would apply to Lincolnshire and rtle | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
areas. Change would only first aid democracy by consensus. With the | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
Minister said he was the perceived by consensus, I understand ht - | :36:15. | :36:23. | |
that is the situation that hs important. I'm grateful for his | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
intervention. Before his suggestion that we might be able to find the... | :36:30. | :36:39. | |
And a minister who I knows hs doing his best to try and give us | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
assurances, which is going to enable us to support amendment 56 rather | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
than dividing the House on `. I m happy to give Wade once mord. - | :36:53. | :37:03. | |
give way. . I think the Honorable member for giving way. I'll talk | :37:04. | :37:11. | |
more about this issue in my comments later. I think it is import`nt to be | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
clear that this is not about a veto, but we want to get its abilhty to | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
build a consensus. The intention of big of the government is to work | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
with local areas for economhcally sensible areas of devolution would | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
structures in the film that allow those things to be realised. It is | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
not about getting one area ` veto or another, or taking a mandatdd | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
approach, about the place ability to deliver what and areas need and that | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
would be realised. It is not about getting one area a veto or `nother, | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
or taking a mandated approach, about the place ability to deliver what | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
and areas need and that with the amendment allows and why we it so | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
closely to see it discussed further and be a part of the bill. H am | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
afraid that what he is saying goes against the position which we've | :37:55. | :38:03. | |
already established. Namely that the government was not pushing `ny of | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
this agenda, that this was `n agenda which could be promoted by | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
individual councils if they wanted to and if they had the agredment of | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
the neighbouring councils. Now we are told that no longer depdnds on | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
the agreement of their neighbouring councils, but acted that thd | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
government will intervene if they think it... I think that is what the | :38:30. | :38:38. | |
Minister is saying. I had completely different proposition than what we | :38:39. | :38:47. | |
had before. This is a sensational change and this whole bill because | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
up until now we have been told that the government is enabling councils | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
to do what they want. One of the differences is of this if this goes | :38:57. | :39:05. | |
through, and that between now and 2019, and County successes Dorset | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
instead of getting on-air branding local services for local people the | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
counsellors and their officdrs are going to be preoccupied with our | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
doing the task of new structures. Structures which I have alrdady said | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
were established 20 years ago and have not been criticised at all It | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
means that a small councils such as Christchurch Marriott... Borough, | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
that counsel threatened with losing its independence. Likewise, each | :39:42. | :39:48. | |
Dorset council is threatened with losing its independence. Ultimately | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
at the bottom -- whelm of the government. It is all done | :39:55. | :39:56. | |
supposedly in the name of devolution. Actually, a district | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
councils is a very highly ddvolved body. It is close to the local | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
people. It is decided those all-important planning applhcations | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
in accordance with the wishds of the local two. The sink my Honorable | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
friend in his place, he will will note that one of the region that a | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
born world has a great blocks on us. It's because they have had a | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
different planning policy from Christ Church, which has an equally | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
delightful. But that has not actually erected by having these | :40:35. | :40:41. | |
enormous entire blocks. That is why high cliff is still a very | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
attractive place was to go `nd take a holiday. And other places I think | :40:45. | :40:59. | |
our gems on the south coast. He is making it his usual | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
characteristically robust speech. What I am slightly concerned by it | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
that my Honorable friend is not take into account the fact that there is | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
a very good photograph of the four leaders of the four local | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
authorities he is reviewing to check in Canada by wondering to explore, | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
together in a new formation. Localism is what the governlent is | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
doing. Providing them with the opportunity to do that. To localism | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
would be for us to let them get on with it. -- to localism. Thd | :41:30. | :41:39. | |
opposition leader and pulls that he got it was very important that this | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
issue should be dealt with by the people of a pool and there should be | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
a local referendum. That was a pooh-poohed by leaders of pool and | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
born with. My Honorable fridnd refers to leaders, but the problem | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
is not the latest, but ensuring that the leaders reflecting Ackldy really | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
the wishes of the people. At the moment, they have no plans `t all to | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
consult properly the people of Christchurch or is Dorset. They are | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
bringing in to some discusshons and those discussions, if you they are | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
given the act of momentum that the Minister wants to give them by | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
accepting amendment 56, those discussions are going to crdate an | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
enormous amount of anxiety `mongst people in my area. Christchtrch | :42:35. | :42:42. | |
very recently, had a local plant inquiry. They have now got ` new | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
local plan and under that plan they are able to preserve most of the | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
green belts and the area. Mx constituents are very generous - | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
the jealous of the green belt. Why has it that cool want to get their | :43:00. | :43:07. | |
hands on the land and each Dorset so that they can impose their planning | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
policy on the green belt and expand outwards into our area. That is the | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
perception of my constituents and that is why they are very concerned. | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
Up until today I have been `ble to say don't worry, this is not going | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
to make any progress becausd I know for a fact that the Dorset County | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
Council, and the gods... Has an idea that they should have two boroughs | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
within their 2-tier system, taking away from them. It would make Dorset | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
County Council less valuabld. I assumed up at about that will give a | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
Dorset County Council at veto and then that these half-baked hdeas | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
would be making any progress. I give way. It is very difficult, `nd | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
pretty clear that the government making decisions is like a bad | :44:03. | :44:09. | |
package job. I actually livdd and represent them every a that is | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
involved in the tool of these structures. One is dominated by a | :44:16. | :44:22. | |
and before joining areas. Councils like Barnsley. That is now | :44:23. | :44:31. | |
attracting the attention of at least three, maybe for and North | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
Derbyshire, Chesterville, and possibly Derbyshire Dales. However, | :44:37. | :44:44. | |
on top of that there is a P2 into power structures, which covdrs not | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
to and Derbyshire. The real problem for this minister and it is time | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
that he got to his feet, thd secretary of state, and explain | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
precisely what will happen hf Sheffield demands demand thd powers | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
that currently exists with the Derbyshire County Council, namely | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
around transport and take it away from the county, what exactly will | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
happen and those circumstances? Here you have two power structurds, both | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
vying for the same thing and although Dorset is complicated, this | :45:23. | :45:32. | |
is even worse. Madam Deputy Speaker, I instinctively think that the | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
gentleman is right. I do not say that only because I have on my wall | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
at home at a picture of his constituency, which was presented to | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
me by his counsel when I was a good local government minister. H think | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
he understands his experience, he understands the complexity of these | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
issues and the potential impact that they can have upon ordinary people. | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
That is why I am concerned `bout this and I know that the government | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
sometimes get the impression is rather intolerant of those who want | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
to raise issues such as this. I give way. Try to follow this closely I | :46:15. | :46:22. | |
tried to square amendment 56 on government support with the | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
assurances from minister. If the Minister is right, why would they be | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
supporting MMS editions was well out and position -- which will `llow an | :46:30. | :46:38. | |
position? I think he makes ` good point. May the Minister will reply | :46:39. | :46:47. | |
to that. If we're talking about consensus, agreement between local | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
authorities, then we do not need an amendment 56. Of merriment that the | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
system is designed to enabld the government to intervene when local | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
authorities or some local authorities do not do at thd | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
government think they should be doing. That isn't what this is about | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
essentially. We might as well face up to the reality -- this is what. A | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
centralising part of this ddvolution bill because ringing power back to | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
the government to an ever bhg a government to change the structures | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
of local government boundarhes and ever give such as Dorset. Ftrther to | :47:23. | :47:33. | |
the point made by my Honorable friend, if amendment 56 is | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
accepted, despite the promises from the Minister, could this not be used | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
as a lever against a counsel to say you better follow to live, or | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
amendment petitions will be brought into play? -- amendment 56. That is | :47:49. | :48:00. | |
exactly the way in which I envisioned this power being used. | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
That is why I'm sure it is being, there was an attempt to smuggle it | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
through at the last minute. And now we are exposing it for what it is. A | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
power grab by the government to try and ensure that it can have the | :48:17. | :48:23. | |
final word and deed the Council as it is not going to what it wishes to | :48:24. | :48:33. | |
do. I am making an assessment that that my Honorable friend wotld | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
support the amendment proposed by my Honorable friend, mainly have a | :48:38. | :48:47. | |
referendum? I am a very supportive of that one. But have not h`d a | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
chance to talk about it yet. Madam Deputy Speaker, because I w`s so | :48:54. | :49:02. | |
concerned about this amendmdnt 6 and amendments a. I'm not going to | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
restate the issue about the referendum, but I think a rdferendum | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
is a necessary safeguard in this sort of situation. The unintended | :49:12. | :49:21. | |
consequences can flow from local government reorganisation. @re such | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
that if we look at the history books, we can see and the London | :49:26. | :49:34. | |
education Authority was set up in London and was only when cotnsel | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
started a campaign to abolish the authority, that education w`s given | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
back to the inner London boroughs. As a result, or inner London bombers | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
were able to gain economic growth as a result of having good quality | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
education within their boundaries. The same thing happened with the | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
Greater London Council. The Council was interfering in the life of the | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
individual boroughs and a h`lf to What happened was, those in charge | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
of the Baros at the time persuaded the conservative government to | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
abolish the Greater London Council. As a result, parks are burndd by the | :50:15. | :50:22. | |
local authorities, rather than being run by the remote authoritids - | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
being run by. We need to have necessary safeguards if we `re not | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
going to come up with proposals like this to the electoral, none of the | :50:36. | :50:44. | |
stuff was in our manifesto. The suggestions that the good | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
conservative government was going to restructure local authoritids in | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
such a way to try and squeeze out small councils, which are closest to | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
the people. If are not going to test this in a general election, and had | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
gone to have to have an amendment 56 under statute until the end of March | :51:02. | :51:11. | |
2019, I think it is all mord important that we should be able to | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
have the safeguard of a refdrendum. The very safeguard which thd people | :51:16. | :51:23. | |
of pool party and liberal Ddmocrats have sold to get from their | :51:24. | :51:37. | |
leaders. Madam Deputy Speakdr, we are on the threshold of a bhg | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
scratch of local government level between different councils, | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
different tears, different counsellors and personalitids and | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
political parties. This is going to threaten and preoccupied local | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
government for the next four or five years. Will be able to look back and | :52:00. | :52:06. | |
see the government wanting to interfere in areas where it should | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
not be interfering at all. Ht should be trusting of the local | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
counsellors, local people to decide what is best for them, and should | :52:14. | :52:22. | |
not be taking a way that power to veto any proposals to changd the | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
boundaries of upon which thdy operate. I very much hope that the | :52:27. | :52:34. | |
House will not accept amendlent 56 as proposed to be amended bx the | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
government. In place a government back into the position it w`s in | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
before. To say it was genuinely fun local councils to decide and the | :52:47. | :52:48. | |
government itself is not gohng to interfere. Or try to keep mx | :52:49. | :52:58. | |
comments brief. -- I will try. A pleasure to follow my humbld friend | :52:59. | :53:07. | |
who spoke powerfully on this. Madam Deputy Speaker, with deform`tion of | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
a like to tell the House about - deformation something to happen and | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
brochure. Many people for m`ny years had looked at the boundary of the | :53:18. | :53:24. | |
city of whole. How it is to constrained and too little of the | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
interim land within a. A lot of people that he'll make sensd to | :53:29. | :53:37. | |
expand outside. The city of whole announced that it was that the | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
commission to look at the b`tteries, look at the possibilities of whole | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
expanding outward. It did so with little or no involvement of the | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
Council. The response of thd Council was to call a referendum itself to | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
the surrounding communities around poll to see what they thought. The | :53:59. | :54:06. | |
interesting thing, nothing dlse going on, you might think that this | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
issue of boundaries can occ`sionally captured the public cosmic | :54:12. | :54:13. | |
imagination. Generally people will just accept a sensible top-down | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
solution given to them by ldaders and government. On to say that all | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
of us how careful we need to be There is a 75% turnout. I dhdn't | :54:23. | :54:32. | |
have the figures at hand, around 75%. 96% said they did not wish to | :54:33. | :54:44. | |
see that expression going to have. -- expansion. The possibility of all | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
the Council that being an blind suggested just need a littld bit at | :54:51. | :54:57. | |
push get through. We should be remarkably sensitive to how strongly | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
the population can feel abott these things. Understanding Hull hs not | :55:02. | :55:09. | |
absurd. Is not necessarily dvil And get, when they were asked, the | :55:10. | :55:17. | |
people who sit there quietlx, people were talking about it, when they | :55:18. | :55:24. | |
were asked, 96% as of three quarters of the population said no, no, no to | :55:25. | :55:31. | |
the three questions asked. H had that to the debate. Just how | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
sensitive we have to be an half asleep this thing can spiral out of | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
control, cost political difficulty, and dissatisfaction. a you `s of the | :55:41. | :55:53. | |
right tuned to hold a referdndum leads my herbal firmware? To be in | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
sympathy with the amendment 56 Oregon State? It leaves me hn a | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
position of having a profound doubt about amendment 56 and I re`lly | :56:04. | :56:10. | |
appreciate the interventions by the Minister who set out my | :56:11. | :56:12. | |
understanding that the government wanted to do. And Hull rathdr | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
than... When there is a polhce reorganisation it was top down, they | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
did not like it and it seems a much smarter move Tuesday it is not that | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
we're neutral I think my frhend was right to say the government was | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
neutral with a position and a vision. It is reassurances but | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
whatever we think we think we're not going to push it on you bec`use we | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
have seen that does not work. It has to go with the consent of pdople and | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
there will be difficult leaders of councils who think for their own | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
individual interests but actually we will bind our hands and restrain | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
ourselves from pushing them aside. We will listen and only will say to | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
everybody unless you can get a consensus we are not going to come | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
piling in because we have sden where that ends up. It might be a Labour | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
government instinct to think we know better than the people, it should be | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
a conservative instinct to recognise they don't and even if the people | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
who have their opinion are wrong, as history would show the people are | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
wrong, get to decide and whdn they deal strongly that should bd | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
respected. I feel right honourable friend has had a fair crack and I'm | :57:24. | :57:31. | |
going to sit down. I think xou Mr Deputy Speaker. This group hncludes | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
a number of quite a lot of new clauses and amendments and H want to | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
focus my comments I merrily on the amendments that are in my n`me as | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
have my all honourable friends touched on. I do not want to detain | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
the House for too long and there is quite a lot of ground to cover so I | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
will try to go through it at a reasonable pace. I will turn first | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
to New Clause ten. Which proposes both at 16. The government seems a | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
little confused on this isste. The Secretary of State said there is a | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
debate to be had. The Minister for the northern powerhouse says there | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
is not. The Prime Minister hs against it all together and yet we | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
know they're looking at it for the European Union referendum and they | :58:19. | :58:20. | |
supported it for the Scottish referendum. There are over one 5 | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
million 16 or 17-year-old in the UK that can get a job, and | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
apprenticeship, get married, pay taxes, join the armed forces but | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
apparently they are not responsible enough to be able to vote for their | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
local counsellor to take decisions about the local services in the area | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
where they made have bought a home and be living with their falily | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
This bill is the ideal placd to bring about change. Incremental | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
change is how the British constitution develops and allowing | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
votes 416 and 17-year-old in local election seems to me a good place to | :58:56. | :59:01. | |
start. The electoral Reform Society says that allowing this would | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
improve registration rates with nearly 90% of 15 and 17-year-olds | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
registered for the Scottish independence referendum in ` very | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
high portion of them to parts in the referendum. 16 and 17-year-olds have | :59:14. | :59:20. | |
a higher turnout rate than 08-3 -year-old and establishing that | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
habit of going and getting hnvolved in voting in elections at an early | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
age makes a lot of sense if you want people to continue voting through | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
their adult life. The Scotthsh referendum that the president. It is | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
unreasonable to extend the voting in one part of the union and not in | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
another. Local elections suffer from low turnout so this is a good place | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
to start. But if the Ministdr thinks this is not the time to introduce | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
the chains perhaps in his comment he could tell the House if not now then | :59:49. | :59:55. | |
when? The government has bedn unclear of moving on to New Clause | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
11 about plans to devolve fhre and rescue to mayors or police `nd crime | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
commissioners but we know the home office are pushing for it and that | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
is included in the greater Manchester devolution deal. Our New | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
Clause called on the Secret`ry of State to publish a review of how | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
this bill affects fire and rescue services. As we have seen over the | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
weekend and heard in the Fldming statement in this chamber e`rlier | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
the fire and rescue service are doing an incredible job despite | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
extremely severe cuts that have limited their capacity and reduced | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
jobs by almost one third. The LGA, the cross party local Government | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
Association believes there hs no pressing need or police and fire | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
services to merge and any changes of the kind being considered ptblic | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
concerns about safety. This New Clause simply adds a level of | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
scrutiny and oversight to the provisions and I hope the Sdcretary | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
of State and the Minister whll therefore welcome and support the | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
proposal. Since 2010 local government has faced cuts of 40 , | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
and last month's spending rdview and pose a further six present hn cuts | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
to counsellors. We know thex'll be changes to business rates once they | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
are localised. We were promhsed details in the Autumn Statelent | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
about how an equalization mdchanism would work and no such detahls were | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
given. Templars have simply been left to plan their future btdgets in | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
the dark despite cuts on a scale they have never been asked to deal | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
with before. The local Government Association warned that loc`l | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
authorities are struggling `nd that is even before his the spending | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
review hits. Lord Porter thd conservative chair of the local | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
Government Association says and I quote we know we have probably got | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
12 or 14 councils that are very close to the edge now. They need to | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
know what is going to happen to them in future if they're going to be | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
able to avoid falling off the edge of this particular financial cliff. | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
The funding settlement is ddeply unfair. The ten most deprivdd | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
communities have suffered ctts 8 times higher than the least | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
deprived. Councils with the highest rates of children in care h`ve | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
suffered cuts three times hhgher than councils with the lowest number | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
of children in care. And whhle labour councils are | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
disproportionately hit by the cuts, there are also ones that ard | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
protecting front-line services. Tory councils have shut out of their | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
services since 2010. These tnfair funding settlements are madd worse | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
by England's local government finance arrangements with the most | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
centralised anywhere in the industrialised world. Counchls lack | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
the freedom to and the needs of a can spend on local prioritids. Even | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
London currently Lord of old than anywhere else in the countrx is | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
reliant on central government funding for three quarters of its | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
revenue. That is far higher than the 30% in New York and 25% in Berlin. | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
London is the world's greatdst city and yet this government inshst on | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
keeping it on far too tight a financial leash. The Communhties and | :03:07. | :03:07. | |
Local Government select comlunity committed that local employdes and | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
England have limited control over taxation and as a consequence rely | :03:14. | :03:15. | |
disproportionately on centr`l government funding. We are proposing | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
a New Clause that does not prescribe a particular settlement but calls on | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
the Secretary of State to ptblish plans of a package of fiscal and | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
financial devolution for ardas. First on business rate retention, | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
councils need an equalization mechanism to ensure their | :03:35. | :03:36. | |
communities with the lease capacity for economic growth are not left to | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
think. Labour supports the localisation of business rates but | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
has to be done in a way that incentivizes areas to grow without | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
penalizing areas with less capacity to do so at the time or in the | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
future. Nesters promised across the dispatch box here at details of the | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
equalization would be made clear during the Autumn Statement but that | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
did not happen and it still has not happened and we have not bedn given | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
aid date of when it will happen We simply cannot allow rich colmunities | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
to get even richer while I grew out of struggles to provide bashc | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
services copy this New Clause calls on the Secretary of State to | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
introduce an equalization mdasure to ensure the least well off are not | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
hammered by this change. I will give way. He will be aware that people in | :04:21. | :04:29. | |
rural areas are on average for than those in urban areas and th`t his | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
government, the government of his previous answers left to right a | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
system where there was 50% lore support per resident in urb`n areas | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
wealthier than rural areas `nd it is more expensive to deliver sdrvices | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
in rural areas. Is not survhving we do not see the same reduction in | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
services in rural areas as we do in cities because they do not dxist in | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
the first place and with his party that let it that way and ard now | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
committed to a fairer systel going forward. The honourable gentleman | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
seems to be supporting my c`se for an equalization mechanism and I am | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
pleased to hear it. Secondlx I want to turn to tax rates and discount | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
control. England has one of the most centralised funding arrangelents in | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
the world. Whitehall takes decisions on council tax which means ht is | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
barely local at all. The prdvious Secretary of State capped rhses | :05:22. | :05:23. | |
while the Chancellor is not encouraging them to push tax cut | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
that's --... Introduce greater local freedom overtax rates depending | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
valuation and discount and third, I want to turn to multiyear fhnance | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
settlement. Every successful organisation needs to be able to | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
plan for the future. You cannot plant complex services without | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
knowing what level of funding is available to pay for them. @s powers | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
are devolved away from Westlinster local authorities need to know they | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
have the resources to properly exercise those powers. Local | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
enterprise partnerships could operate more effectively if they had | :06:00. | :06:01. | |
longer-term funding streams and indeed the legal delete Mac regional | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
development agency they replaced were able to make single per year | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
funding agreements or let's have access to a smaller budget with too | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
many small funding parts with constraints about how they can be | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
used. We want to make sure combined authorities do not suffer from the | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
same problem. Our New Clausd calls on the Secretary of State to allow | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
for multiyear funding agreelents. Giving combined authorities the | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
resources and time to ensurd financial stability and allow them | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
to make better long-term decisions about local services. Turning to New | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
Clause 14, we welcome the committee stage in the proposal that new | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
subnational transport bodies must consult adjoining authoritids before | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
taking decisions. On transport, the government recognised the ddvolution | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
of powers to combined authorities concerned neighbouring authorities | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
who do not wish to join or cannot join a particular combined | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
authorities. This is an important principle but it extends to other | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
areas beyond transport and the Minister's response to our `mendment | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
at committee stage was disappointing. The Minister said it | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
was not necessary or appropriate so perhaps today he will reconsider | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
supporting this amendment. For example local authorities on the | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
periphery of the greater Manchester combined authorities have concerns | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
over health service decisions but will affect them on which they are | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
unable to influence. We want to give them the right to be consulted. If | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
the government is prepared to concede that in transport they | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
should be consulted then whx not in health or indeed in other kdy | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
services as well? Turning to the issue of mayors, the governlent is | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
imposing mayors whatever thdy say, when making them a non-negotiable | :07:45. | :07:52. | |
condition of devolution for metropolitan areas. We belidve the | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
spirit of devolution demands that local areas should choose their own | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
model of government instead of having it imposed from the centre. | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
If areas want a mayor, find that it should not be -- should be fine too | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
if they do not want a mayor. It is disappointing to see seven `nd | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
related amendment allowing the Secretary of State to imposd a mayor | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
on a combined authority even if there are one or more consthtuent | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
councils who do not want ond. It is no surprise this amendment was | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
written up by the local Govdrnment Chronicle under the headlind used to | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
government powers to impose elected mayors. The government is acting in | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
opposition to its own claims to support local decision-making in | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
this respect. These powers hf they are agreed this evening must be used | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
with extreme caution. Where a potential combined authoritx is | :08:41. | :08:42. | |
divided over the details of a deal which it may well be, local | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
cooperation must always be the preferred way forward and I would | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
welcome a statement by the Linister or the Secretary of State to that | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
effect. Our amendment 58 reintroduces the change madd in the | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
Lords which stipulates the deep to leave with that -- devolution deals | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
cannot be made dependent on having a mayor, a view that has support on | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
all sides of this house as we have heard again this evening. Ttrning to | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
a amendment 59, we had some discussion on the general power of | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
competence earlier during this debate. Localism act 2011 introduced | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
the general power of confiddnce intended to give local authorities | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
more power and freedom to innovate, a good idea. But LGA research shows | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
that the power is limited bx significant constraints set by | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
central government and a local government needs are more | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
independence from interference I central government. The constraint | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
identified IV IGA include fhnancial structural and regulator a. Our | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
amendment encourages the Secretary of State to review the power of | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
general competence to learn how to make it more effective and to | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
encourage greater take-up than the disappointing level that we have | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
seen so far. Of finally I would like to consider government amendment 27 | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
and associated amendment. Alendments 27 would allow districts to join | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
combined authorities without the consent of their county authority | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
and vice versa. Our general approach to this bill is that decisions | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
should be in the hands of the local area and the local people affected. | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
That has shaped our view governance and it also shapes our view on this | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
amendment. Xers or counties should be free to join combined authorities | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
if that is their preference however we would like the Secretary of State | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
to confirm that he is aware of the risk and understands them and will | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
build an appropriate safegu`rds especially in relation to m`nuscript | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
amendment 56 where the Secrdtary of State takes the power himself to | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
impose a decision. That does seem a little draconian and we need to hear | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
that it would only be used hn extreme circumstances. For hnstance | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
authorities outside the arr`ngements need protection to ensure that they | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
remain viable after any change is put through. We would welcole | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
assurances from the Secretary of State that these powers would only | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
be used in exception and th`t seeking consensus will alwaxs be the | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
priority. I will ask to if he could concern -- confirmed that where | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
district are part of a county choose to participate in a neighbotring | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
combined authority letters will still have a vote in the Cotnty | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
Council elections for the atthority within which the District shx. I | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
look forward to hearing the Minister's response on thesd point | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
and I give notice of our intention to test the House on amendmdnt 8 | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
and on devolution deals to be accepted without the dot will also | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
seek a vote on New Clause tdnd to look Leigh lower the voting age to | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
16 years old. These are changes that in our view would greatly strengthen | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
a missy which I hope to see later on this evening succeed. Thank you Mr | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
Deputy Speaker. The watchword of the debate throughout committee and | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
indeed throughout the day h`s been consensus but I never thought that | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
it would be consensus betwedn the honourable member for balls over and | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
the Minister for Christchurch. That both a little further than H had | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
anticipated we would be abld achieve. I will when I touched on | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
the points we discussed earlier say if he wants to make a comment on | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
that stage. I want to speak first having already discussed New Clause | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
want to amend the New Clausd five being placed in this group copy this | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
amendment poses the setting of commission to consider devolving tax | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
and fiscal powers to a local level. I well know that the honour`ble | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
Jennifer Nottingham North as an advocate of devolving power for | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
central government. He will be familiar with the successivd past | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
inquiries covering similar ground to which that he imposes today. I do | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
not think a further inquiry into tax power devolution to local government | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
will serve a particularly useful purpose at this time though | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
recognising as always his consistency and eloquent in bringing | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
these matters before the Hotse and so I hope that you'll agree to | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
withdraw his amendment when we reach the end of this group. Give way | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
Given that there is now no need for an inquiry since there is a | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
precedent in Scotland where Scotland do retain an element of income tax, | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
congratulations to that, thdre is nothing in the water in England that | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
would stop us in England from also having income tax assignment so on | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
that basis that there is now something stronger than an hnquiry | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
there is a precedent approvdd by the Treasury, approved by this house in | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
the 2014 Scotland Act I gladly withdraw the amendment Mr Speaker. I | :13:35. | :13:42. | |
recognise what he says, I think there are complexities to stch | :13:43. | :13:44. | |
devolution to local governmdnt and I'm sure those are complexities that | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
he continue to argue. He will be dealt with in reality rather than | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
just an period as these matters are discussed. I will not speak to New | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
Clause eight tabled in the name of my honourable friend which would | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
provide a cooling off or probationary period for the | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
functions from a local authority to a combined authority. I know this is | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
a matter my honourable friend has raised in previous pages on our | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
discussion on this bill and a matter of great interest to him. I can see | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
the attraction for an indivhdual local authority that this proposed | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
flexibility might have applhcability to reversed eight converts ` powers. | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
The very fact of the combin`tory might be as possible for only a year | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
or so for those powers could be conducive to little action being | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
taken under which would then be perceived as a temporary conferred | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
function. The combinatory would almost certainly be reluctant to | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
base any investment or other major activity on a function which they | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
could lose in a few years' time moreover partners whether btsiness | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
or other public art is what almost certainly be looking to entdr into | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
arrangements which could so quickly be reversed. We consider thdrefore | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
it would be very doubtful that activity within that probathonary or | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
cooling-off period of any stch conferral of powers would ghve a | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
realistic actor of how a colbined authority might operate in the | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
future and a full range of benefits and improvements that might be | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
achieved. The consider a better alternative and local authorities | :15:09. | :15:10. | |
are not sure whether they whsh to confer a specific power would be fit | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
to trial such joint working across the area of a combined authority | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
through an former arrangements such as a shadow combined authorhty or | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
joint committee. These models are available to local authoritx and | :15:22. | :15:23. | |
combined authorities without the need for any secondary legislation | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
to be made and I asked that the honourable member withdraw his | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
amendment and not was to do a division of the House. I now wish to | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
speak to amendment New Clause ten which seeks to reinsert into the | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
bill because inserted in thd other place to amend section two of the | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
representation of the peopld act 1983 to lower the minimum voting age | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
from 18-16 for the local government franchise of England Wales. We | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
debated Mr Deputy Speaker this provision at some length whdn we | :15:50. | :15:51. | |
last met in committee. After which the House agreed to remove the cloth | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
I a significant majority of 95. I think the message was clear then and | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
it remains clear now. We have discussed quite widely the `ge of | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
majority, those things 16-17 -year-olds are able to do or are | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
prevented from doing by law and also the suggestion that young pdople are | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
blankly engaged quite rightly so but therefore they should be given the | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
boat a conclusion with what I do not agree. This debate has simply | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
exposed a wider truth that they will hold range of views many of which in | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
legislation and can best be described as encompassing the | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
condition from childhood to adulthood. There's probably no clear | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
point at which a person becomes an adult but it is a team not 06 that | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
society draws the line. Any change the entitlement to vote... We should | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
not be making piecemeal changes to the franchise. We be making changes | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
and simply assume there'd bden no indications for areas where our laws | :16:48. | :16:56. | |
for treating them different... The age used in most democracies is 18. | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
The government has no plans to change it and indeed my right | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
honourable friend the member reminded the House last timd that we | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
have no manifesto mandate to do so. So recognising what the shadow | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
minister says that the intended -- they intend to test the will of the | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
House on this issue I would encourage the House to trust the | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
government and the reasserthon of this cloth. I now move to Ndw Clause | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
a 11 which requires the Secretary of State must publish a review of the | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
fire and rescue services affected by provisions of the bill. This | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
amendment is not necessary. Devolution is about enabling local | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
areas to determine how that their services are delivered. Is therefore | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
only right that fire and rescue authorities in agreement with local | :17:39. | :17:40. | |
partners should decide how `nd when to review and assess how provisions | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
of this act may affect fire and rescue services. Man also rdmind | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
audible numbers as the requhrements of the fire national remark will | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
continue to apply. With these donations I hope honourable members | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
will agree to withdraw this amendment. Amendment New Cl`use 13, | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
we are already major steps to devolve local taxes and havd only | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
just set out plans for a radical devolution of this the powers. By | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
the end of this prime and the local Government Secretary will rdtain | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
100% of local taxes to spend on local government services. For the | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
first time in decades well pull areas will see the full dirdct | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
benefit of this is right growth in the local area. Will be granting new | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
powers to elected mayors and authorities and will give all local | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
authorities the power to produced business tax rates to support | :18:27. | :18:28. | |
businesses in their area. As was confirmed in these pending review | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
will set out detailed inforlation in due course and hope the House will | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
agree that this New Clause hs unnecessary. I hope therefore that | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
the honourable member will `gree it should be with John. I will now turn | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
to New Clause 14 tabled by the honourable members are the that | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
which will require the secondary as state to issue guidance on operation | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
of peripheral authority. I do not believe this is necessary nor do I | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
believe it is appropriate. Before making orders establishing ` | :19:00. | :19:01. | |
combined authority and orders for new functions to a new authority to | :19:02. | :19:11. | |
I should say that to do so hs to... Additionally Parliament must approve | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
such quarters. The amendment seeks to provide a further requirdment | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
about how once established ` combined authority should go about | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
the excise of its functions. Devolved to it. As with loc`l | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
aborted, combined authority should go about the excise of its | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
functions. Devolved to it. @s with local aborted, combinatory lust take | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
their decisions having regard to all relevant considerations just at | :19:31. | :19:31. | |
local aborted cannot be blinded to the impact of their decisions beyond | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
their own trademark and combined authority. Neither any capable | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
authorities nor combined authorities can be authority be ignorant to what | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
happens beyond its borders. We do not have these provisions for local | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
parties and it is the contention of the government position that we | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
should not impose them on combined authorities either. Therefore, this | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
proposed new policy is neither necessary or appropriate and I hope | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
that the House will agree. H will now turn to amendment four, five and | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
six would have been tabled hn response to amendment tabled at | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
committee by my honourable friend. The first of these amendments to | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
make sure the Secretary of State... Annual report on devolution to | :20:09. | :20:10. | |
permit will include an permhssion on the extent to which powers `re being | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
devolved to a mayor and also remain excitable by the Minister of the | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
crown. Amendment five is a consequential amendment to `mendment | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
for while amendment six to find the creators combined authority and | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
minister of the crown. Is the governmentattention that function | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
should be evolved as widely as possible there may be... If these | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
expeditions I hope that honourable members will be able to accdpt | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
amendments for five and six. Turning to amendment 58 if this werd | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
excepted it would mean that any transfer of options to a colbined | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
authority must dependent on the combined authority having a mayor. | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
In its intent it is similar to the provision of the then Clausd three | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
of the bill which was considered and converted to remove by a majority of | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
81. That provision imposed ` specific requirement that Axmeric | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
could not be a precondition for transferring functions to a combined | :21:04. | :21:05. | |
authority. As I told the colmittee then, that provision was at odds | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
with our manifesto commitment and this one is as well. In our | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
manifesto be committed to ddvolve far-reaching powers of economic | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
development social care and transfer to large cities which choosd to have | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
elected mayors and. We are not forcing mayors on anyone or any | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
place. Whether an area has ` mayor is a matter of local choice but of a | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
area wants to have a dilution deal of the scale and the vision of | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
Manchester we expect a mayor to be part of that bill. The effect of | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
this amendment would to be stopped pursuing this manifesto polhcy | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
putting the whole of future devolution at risk of challdnge and | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
it is an amendment to which we are wholly opposed and an amendlent that | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
we've ever hope will not be successful should be housed choose | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
to divide on it. Amendment to provide that combined authority | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
American be established onlx after a referendum and I was sent whth rate | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
interest to the comments of right honourable friend the Member for | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
Hazel Grove and the always persuasive comments of the | :22:04. | :22:05. | |
honourable member for North East Somerset who was as ever persuasive | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
eloquent but on this occasion I am afraid to say not quite persuasive | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
enough. This requires the Sdcretary of State to make regulations | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
governing the conduct of such regulations and we had an adjusting | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
debate on the first day of consideration of the building | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
committee about this very m`tter. I recognise that I was Ruby do be | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
challenged by members from both sides about the degree of choice for | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
local areas and while not sdeking to reopen the debate I must make clear | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
again that the builders might give the government the power to impose | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
devolution or a model of devolution on any area. The decision to | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
approach the government proposal for the dilution of powers and the | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
degree of devolution requirdd is a local one. By the same token, we | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
have always been clear that where areas make that approach to | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
negotiate the significant transfer of powers for example have five | :22:57. | :22:58. | |
Artie said had the case in greater Manchester we would expect ` mirror | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
to form part of that makes providing levels of leadership and | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
accountability necessary to ensure it delivery of such a deal. Members | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
also drew comparisons... I will give way. I wish you good clarifx this | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
point though nobody would bd forced to go down this route. Does he think | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
that amendment seven would lean that there is an objecting consthtuent | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
Council would not be part of the mayoralty was? Areas will not be | :23:28. | :23:36. | |
forced to be part of a devolution deal. If the mayor is a part of a | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
devolution deal and am local counsel did not want to be part of ht it | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
would not be forced by anything the government would intend to or can do | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
to be part of that combined authority. It is a matter of | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
building that local consensts of giving local people that choice A | :23:51. | :23:59. | |
council that is part of a combined authority where it objects to a | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
mayor but other members of the combined authority and the combined | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
authority by majority vote for a mayor that authority, the fhrst | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
authority will then leave the combined authority and not be in any | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
combined authority of the m`yor The honourable member is correct where | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
there is an existing combindd authority and a number of the local | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
parties within and want to lake a deal but one does not, one or more | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
do not, then we want to havd the possibility that they are ehther not | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
to be forced in any way to dnter into a deal they do not agrde but | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
instead able to leave and not be part of that devolution deal. | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
Holding a referendum on the narrow question of whether there should be | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
a mayor risk not fully recognising the choice that is to be made happy | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
it also fails to recognise the will of those who have been elected by | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
people of their area to represent them and to make necessary decisions | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
to safeguard their well-being and prosperity of the area. Of course | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
there is to methodically eldcted locally who want to have her guard | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
the views of the annuities `nd businesses and their air and the | :25:01. | :25:02. | |
voluntary sector of those who live and work there but we should have | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
the confidence and those collected in those areas to grasp | :25:06. | :25:07. | |
opportunities this bill makds possible. To consider the ddgree of | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
devolved power that is appropriate and deliverable in each of their | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
area of soppy to enter into negotiations with government and in | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
what is a fast-moving environment to take the decision that will best | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
deliver the economic growth and development that they have @rtie | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
been mandated to deliver. Are Democratic traditions are not | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
demanded the approach provided for in by this amendment although I | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
recognise the ingenious way in which the honourable member for North East | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
Somerset argued that perhaps he felt we were transitioning to a place | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
where they would copy I do not think we are in that place yet. Indeed the | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
approach we have in the bill of the choice for combined authority mayor | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
being made by councils is exactly the same approach that is open to | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
councils for choosing a loc`l authority mayor. For these reasons | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
we cannot accept this amendlent I will only because it is the | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
honourable member. I'm very concerned that we may be warned me | :25:56. | :26:03. | |
not be the exception to this. He would've the Minister's proposal? | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
Whether the Isle of Wight w`s part of any depletion deal would be a | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
matter for the Isle of Wight not impose on any area. Regarding which | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
areas want to see a mayor as part of the deal would depend on thd deal | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
but is being asked for and the discussions that took place. There | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
is no single fixed model th`t we would look to apply, cookie,cutter | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
like in different communitids that I can assure the honourable mdmber at | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
the Isle of Wight did not w`nt to be part of something if elbow not serve | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
the interest there is nothing in this bill that would allow ts to | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
compel it to do so. I will now speak to amendment 57 tabled in the name | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
of my honourable friend. Whhch would enable local authority to ldave a | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
mineral combined authority `nd should this happen provide for a | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
fair division of resources. Be existing combined authority | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
legislation section 106 of the local democracy economic developmdnt and | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
construction act 2009 and the bill already enables orders to bd made to | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
remove a local of 30 from a combined authority with consent from the area | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
agreement from the Secretarx of State and approval from parliament. | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
There would've courts be a number of practical issues to deal before | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
making such an order. Setting up alternative operational | :27:14. | :27:14. | |
arrangements, working out how to divide budget and contractu`l | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
arrangements etc. The 2009 `ct in this bill also provide for the. If | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
an order is made to remove ` local Dory from a combined authorhty it | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
must specify an authority to become a local transport Authority and the | :27:28. | :27:29. | |
bill provides further power to enable such an order to transport | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
combined authority functions to another public authority or to be | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
seized. We consider that thdse provisions provide all the powers | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
and flex ability necessary to enable of the globe authority to bd the | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
combined authority where thhs is wanted locally where the Secretary | :27:44. | :27:55. | |
of State considers that to do so is likely to improve the statutory | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
functions and has regard to the need to reflect the identities interest | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
of local communities and to secure effective and convenient local | :28:01. | :28:01. | |
government and where Parlialent approves the making of such an | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
order. With these assurances I will look to my honourable friend to | :28:05. | :28:06. | |
withdraw this amendment. I now turn to amendment seven 81315 180920 26 | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
and 54. The bill already en`bles one local authority to be a movd from | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
the combine a party that dods not wish to come agree to the | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
combinatory's proposal to adopt the addition of mayor. | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
These amendments extend the provisions. It would mean the F | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
Amor councils within a combhned authority to not wisdom abott a | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
particular aspect of a devolution Bill, but to combine authorhties and | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
other councils within it do, than the area of the combined authorities | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
change tour move the Council that do not wish to participate. I give | :28:39. | :28:46. | |
play. Basket by. I will attdmpt to reassure the House that the | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
emphasis, I think the shadow Minister made this point, whll be a | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
consensus. And that we should only get to the point of imposing this if | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
all else fails. Will it be guidance issued by the government to ensure | :29:02. | :29:09. | |
that the whole emphasis is on.. Absolutely the emphasis is on local | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
agreement and consensus. Thdre is no power to impose some areas that do | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
not want to be part of devolution. These causes are to ensure that | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
areas that do not want to bd part of the bill are able to flee the | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
combined authorities. These amendments give great flexibility to | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
existing ability to devoluthon deals. And build further on the | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
flexibility within the legislation. Timing to amendment nine, and speak | :29:34. | :29:42. | |
to amendments 11-12, 21 and 20 two, 23, 24, 28, and 50, the amendments | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
are designed to harmonize the bill for fishing related to the docent | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
needed locally before powers can be conferred or exercise. We h`ve | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
tabled these amendments and to issues raised in earlier st`ges of | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
consideration stopping thesd amendments are standardised to | :29:59. | :29:59. | |
adjust a bit of consideration stopping these amendments are | :30:00. | :30:01. | |
standardised provincial somdthing about position will is made. An | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
exception is that for the dissolution of a combined atthority, | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
the consent of the majority local authorities as required. Thhs simply | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
retains the status. The announcement to amendments 31, 32, 52, 33, 5 . | :30:19. | :30:25. | |
With further increased flexhbility within the provisions to en`ble | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
combined authorities to be established in functions to be | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
conferred. We are bringing the forward end result and response to | :30:33. | :30:34. | |
our discussion to our discussions during committee, where somd members | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
online challenges in the ardas. The amendments will did obsessed change | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
in a combined authority in `ny place. But they provide the flex | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
ability to allow grimace to be made and agreement to be deliverdd. - | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
agreements. I like to speak to us yes I can play. I get way. There are | :30:56. | :31:05. | |
two different content things authorities for two authorities in | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
our area. One of Derbyshire, and to the two. There are several district | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
councils associated with th`t bill. The question is, the Chef of the | :31:18. | :31:30. | |
region may want -- Sheffield to take the test for every from Derbyshire | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
County Council. The unitary authorities in both of the Northeast | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
Chesterfield, Dells, are all devolved in that County Council | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
Social services and various other things. Therefore, we need `n | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
assurance from the Minister, which makes it clear that that | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
circumstances will not change the Derbyshire County Council and the | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
electoral processes or an end of the way. Is a yes or no? Up to the | :32:04. | :32:11. | |
insurance I can get, is what is done, will be done by consensus | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
Will look to talk to local `reas about the build is to look `t the | :32:15. | :32:22. | |
individual bills in the are`s and to enable us to get the maximul | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
flexibility that we need to respond to local demand and local ddsire for | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
devolution. To deliver deals that will stand the test of time. I am | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
unable to talk in detail about this particular issue. About what is | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
proposed in the specific ardas. I'm very pleased to meet him th`t any | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
issues who want to read and assure him that the intention is to find | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
consensus and build on that consensus to deliver the devolution | :32:51. | :32:58. | |
agenda. What are the women to make sure that that would give the | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
safeguards and assurances on a amendment 27, however will leaning | :33:02. | :33:09. | |
it was, -- well-meaning, I don't doubt what they're, that it will not | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
have a knock on consequences for county councils in every is where we | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
are trying to deliver devolttion deals based on an economic grounds, | :33:18. | :33:25. | |
rather than political grounds. I can assure him. I know he has dhscussed | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
this with me outside of the floor of the House some of the issues he has. | :33:31. | :33:38. | |
The intention is to find consensus in the right solution for e`ch area. | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
We need the flexibility to deliver that. With the wearing of the | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
concerns, far from being annoyed, will be heard and acted upon. I know | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
some of the issues that he raises in his issues, and I am happy to meet | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
him and his colleagues to dhscuss them as things progress. Thdre is no | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
desire to do anything to ardas, quite the opposite. This is about | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
areas to ask for things that we can didn't deliver. This bill ghves us | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
the flexibility to the libido. I need to make progress. I love that | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
they are both members for t`bling amendment 59. Related to... The | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
intention of this amendment would not only impose their requirements | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
to publish a report of performance a local of them ask, but will cry the | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
secretary of state to review the competence related to issued by | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
combined authorities. This `mendment is not necessary. The questhon which | :34:30. | :34:41. | |
we like to be answered, districts to attach himself to a great chty, but | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
both districts were an accotnting area, does he envision the | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
possibility that the county itself within take a different shape? | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
Number the Derbyshire went represent all of the areas, or any of the | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
County are related to the s`me category. The intention is to | :35:02. | :35:11. | |
deliver local areas what ond. The bill gives us that the stabhlity. | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
What is wanted, it also just the ability to deliver that. Wolen to | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
proceed by consensus becausd that is how devolution will last. Alendment | :35:23. | :35:30. | |
one, but unable to State to make provisions in legislation to require | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
local authorities and combined authorities to undertake a community | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
governance review within two years of the act coming into forcd. I do | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
not believe this amendment hs necessary or appropriate for | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
inclusion in the face of thd bill. I absolutely recognise the desire to | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
see further devolution, see the devolution debate continued, and the | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
role that more local decision-making can have, including the low parish | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
might play that. I do not think this amendment to this ability bx time | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
and place to not go down th`t particular path. I thereford hope | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
the Honorable members will `gree to withdraw amendment one, but I will | :36:06. | :36:13. | |
give play first. -- get way first. I'm delighted to withdraw if the | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
Minister were to tell the Mhnister would tell to help what was shape or | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
structure would be in place so that best actress called the votd for | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
devolution bills can be pulled together in one place and drawn down | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
by those who may wish to do further work? That is an issue with what | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
will be talking to the LGA with Still in the process of delhvering | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
both the. I will be added to spearhead devolution for thd | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
government to now come I a format that sets a poor must take. By | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
recommending that, he makes, I picked a value that one could bring | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
it significant and I would be happy to put that off the record of the | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
intention to have those discussions and develop something that has | :36:55. | :37:03. | |
agreement. The Member for C`rlisle has tabled an amendment 56. Was what | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
enabled the Secretary of St`te to fast-track processes the | :37:10. | :37:11. | |
authorisation of changes in a particular area. Boundary changes. I | :37:12. | :37:20. | |
would just highlight that point Enabled a fast-track process, does | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
not bring in new powers that do not already exist, streamlines the use | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
of existing powers. He also table a similar amendment of the first | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
committee of this house, ensuring that no bond counsel will vdto such | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
a change. However sensible `nd supportive it might be. He was to | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
see a way of preventing one counsel from denying a change that light be | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
in the answers of a wider area. We have had a wider area. We h`ve had | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
further arguments about the proposition, but equally from my | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
honourable friend... What would the Beckett last time, I made clear | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
process of government changds were to be made to need to be a | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
consensus. And we're not in the business of imposing change on | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
anyone. That remains our st`rting point in our intention. -- `nd our | :38:04. | :38:13. | |
intention. County answer at this point. -- can he answer. St`te | :38:14. | :38:21. | |
ligature Council was to use amendment 56 to fast-track ` | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
procedure. But one or more districts objected to a unitary authority Do | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
I take it that nothing in alendment 56 would make it easier for the | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
District councils to be overridden by a Lancashire County Council or | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
any other County Council? The powers are pretty exist for the Secretary | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
of State to review and change local authority boundaries to cre`te | :38:47. | :38:48. | |
unitary authorities to do m`ny things. With a level of concern they | :38:49. | :38:58. | |
have arrested a. This is based reminded of that streamlining. What | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
is important to do it, whether there is consensus whatever we can find | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
it, and to compare a apply statutory test. I think it is a welcole a | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
moment to that effect. I hope for the above members that they will | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
support it and give why. Struggling to square what I've read in the | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
amendment with what he just said. There is no talk of mastermhnding or | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
test. Simply a statement th`t one counsel is in favour of it, than all | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
the other councils can be ptshed aside. That is what it says and | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
adopted this place is not to listen to reassurance from how... | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
Ministers, but to look at the wording on the law. The library to | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
give prepared to the Secret`ry of State. He already has it, I do not | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
see what he needs to have it in the amendment. And remains the case that | :39:50. | :39:59. | |
the Council can now regardldss piece of legislation ask the Secrdtary of | :40:00. | :40:01. | |
State to implement a propos`l for structural change to the tr`ditional | :40:02. | :40:11. | |
process of... Different councils Secretary of State capitals powers, | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
but to a very convoluted and lengthy process. This is not about forcing | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
unwanted change and every is because we might have the power to do so. | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
This is about enabling the flexibility to deliver the right | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
deals for every is because we might have the power to do so. Thhs is | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
about enabling the flexibilhty to deliver the right deals an | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
honourable member separate concerns, but there are test that havd to be | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
satisfied in doing that. And wanted to be approval this place and | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
changes that are going to bd made. This fast-track process would have | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
safeguards and one that I think is welcome. To get back a couple of | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
examples. Requires the Secrdtary of State to report about fast-track | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
process, including matter hdre take into, and cannot be used without | :40:57. | :41:04. | |
Parliament's approval. Haven't considered -- having considdred the | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
arguments, and having looked at the need to have flexibility before | :41:11. | :41:12. | |
going to make devolution gl`ss, we have decided that this amendment | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
should be supported. Without a cost of the sure it is nice over last and | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
impact fertility, but we did the flexibility is one that last impact | :41:25. | :41:26. | |
fertility, but we did the flexibility is oneness of stre it is | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
not something that would last an opportunity, but we did the | :41:30. | :41:31. | |
flexibility is one that shotld be buckled. -- welcome. That hd agreed | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
that the Secretary of State on any circumstances to force change on a | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
local authority against his will and really only interested in | :41:43. | :41:44. | |
encouraging local authoritids to talk to each other? But my friend | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
said at the beginning of his remarks that are the starting point that | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
they will be forcing change, but suggest that ultimately the | :41:56. | :41:57. | |
government wishes to have the power to force change. I would relind him | :41:58. | :42:04. | |
those towers already exists. The intention of the government is to | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
find consensus, to build a local desire to see devolution, ddliver a | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
devolution double glass to dvery is an benefit from a. The powers are | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
already there, this is about ensuring that we can deliver in a | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
timely way the devolution that every is one. I can reconfirm to the | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
commitment to the government to seek consensus, and build on it because | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
we recognise that is how devolution is going to class and stand the test | :42:27. | :42:33. | |
of time. I need to make progress. Amendment 16, 30, and 55. , | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
liabilities and public authorities can be transferred to local or | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
combined authorities on the same basis of the liabilities with public | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
authorities are conferred. @mendment 17 and 31, closets 16 and 17 allowed | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
references and transfer orddr over Galatians to be made to a former | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
document, such as guidance, which can be amended from time to time. I | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
turned to move amendment 36, this change is necessary to ensure that | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
certain transfer functions being carried out by strategic bodies and | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
local authorities can undertake concurrently rather than johntly. | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
Amendment three had the effdct in which mayors of combined authorities | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
I let the. Members have deb`ted at some of this matter and the position | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
of the government that what we're looking at individual... Thd voting | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
system that would admit the provision is to buy one and | :43:28. | :43:29. | |
therefore this amendment should be rejected. Turn to amendments, ten, | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
37, 43, 45, 44 was being pl`ced in the school, these are necessary to | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
bring the bill to bring the bill into blind. Providing clarity and | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
consistency with the post thtle of male devotees and policing crime | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
commission is, functions. Hope members will be able to accdpt. To | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
continue to support probablx the devolution and delivery for which | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
there is so much consensus `nd support. I have withdrawn bx the... | :43:58. | :44:15. | |
New one being withdrawn. Let's move on. Would not come to New Clause | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
nine, which would lead conshder new clouds and amendments listed on the | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
patriot. -- Clause listed on the motion paper. At the proper time I | :44:28. | :44:37. | |
will not to move New Clause and an amendment 57. To a vote. Ministers | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
and I picked at the indicathon that I am satisfied with responsds that I | :44:45. | :44:52. | |
have received. -- I take th`t as. Moving to New Clause nine, the | :44:53. | :45:02. | |
Parisian demonstration I have tabled this and am so concerned about this | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
aspect legislation is that we already have a very Allied dxamples. | :45:10. | :45:17. | |
And greater Manchester. -- `nd greater Manchester. Because of the | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
difficulties related to the proposals for organisation of | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
hospital services, the mattdr will be decided by review this wdek. It | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
is really in the hope that we confront the legislation in such a | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
way that proper protection can be given to local authorities `nd local | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
communities to ensure that those kind of development should not be | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
necessary in the future. I believe the judicial review overturned the | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
existing proposals, they silply can be imposed in a different w`y. The | :45:57. | :46:06. | |
crucial problem here is that the existing combined authority | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
arrangements have combined their worldview and functions of the | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
existing local authorities `nd. What he can to concerns in this hnstance | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
about the potential downgrading of the University hospitals, the user | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
will proposal which would h`ve been the usual available, Trafford, | :46:30. | :46:43. | |
Manchester, referring the m`tter Secretary of State and asking the | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
Secretary of State to beford an independent reconfiguration. It not | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
available. Because of the excluded many function was exercised, not at | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
the indivisible local authority global, but combined local `uthority | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
level. I see the Mr looking confused but I can assure him that when I had | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
discussions with the Secret`ry of State, he advised me this w`s the | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
rock they needed to be taken. - Ruth. -- route. That is the problem. | :47:11. | :47:20. | |
You can have a significant innovation like Manchester, which | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
may in due course be a marital authority. It is possible to arrive | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
at a state of affairs whereby significant parts of that | :47:34. | :47:42. | |
conurbation have no recoursd should every organisation of health | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
services been proposed, which is evidently not in the interest of the | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
local community. It is a very simple proposition that I put before the | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
House and New Clause nine. H can say that the Minister and I havd had | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
some extremely constructive conversations prior to this point. | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
I'm very hopeful that what he is going to save when he responds will | :48:10. | :48:17. | |
reassure me that there should be in measure and seduce, if not today, | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
then by government amendments and the House of Lords. Given that there | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
will be some changes to these aspects of the bill to the | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
government of amendment 34. There is a peg to hang that as I unddrstand. | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
What I am looking for is thd simple reassurance that the governlent will | :48:39. | :48:46. | |
ensure in the legislation that there will always be a roofer at | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
individual authority to makd the kind of a reference which would have | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
saved an enormous cost uncertainty, and trouble and greater Manchester, | :48:55. | :49:02. | |
had it been in place as of today. -- route. I look forward to my | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
friend's response and I hopd to reassure them exceeded reassurance | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
that he might give. Changes to health care provision. The puestion | :49:15. | :49:22. | |
be that the copy read a second time. I left a comment on the second group | :49:23. | :49:31. | |
if I may. -- would like. I think it is relevant to what the honourable | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
gentleman has been talking `bout and moving to New Clause. Essentially, | :49:37. | :49:45. | |
my identity here -- anxiety, is that if devolution is taking place, we | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
all welcome that, particularly welcome the precedents being set in | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
terms of the public health powers to the localities. However, is almost a | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
little bit of the empire is striking back here. With the Whitehall | :50:00. | :50:07. | |
leviathan seeking to play a caveat around the devolution powers. In | :50:08. | :50:16. | |
essence what they are saying that the Secretary of State can revoke | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
help functions of the local authority, and if it does that, it | :50:20. | :50:29. | |
may be that Whitehall and the health department does not approve of a | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
devolution proposal within ` given area. It may be that in the city of | :50:34. | :50:42. | |
Nottingham, or Manchester, or anyplace represented here this | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
evening, which is to perhaps do something innovative and interesting | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
on public health because th`t matches their demographic. Ht may | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
not match the view of the pdople of the people of Department of Health. | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
And maybe they have a 1-size-fits-all master plan that | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
they would like to impose on everybody. By difficulty here is | :51:10. | :51:17. | |
that if we allow the Secret`ry of State to pull back to the cdntre, | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
any of these towers, then there is no safeguard and thought th`t they | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
can do that. -- power he can attempt to have an effort of a blue | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
devolution. We see this over and over again on the dead hand of | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
Whitehall lays upon local government, based upon the | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
charitable sector, when do H give and perhaps a year, get on with it, | :51:43. | :51:50. | |
we can give you some money, but if we did not like it, listed by the | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
rules and have a look at it. That's below other groups. It that the | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
concern why should the Secrdtary of State assigned the order in the | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
first place agreed to the ddvolution is actually, if it does not pay his | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
master plan and is going to pay back the due course? Why would hd give it | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
a way in the first place? The secretaries of state does h`ve the | :52:18. | :52:24. | |
power to pull the experiments back. That is why I am bringing forward | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
the proposal which will bring the Secretary of State is not concerned | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
about that. The Secretary of State should then have no worry about that | :52:35. | :52:37. | |
and depend upon a half being able to say had gone. Give the guy the | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
amount of time they have to experience. Rather than havhng to | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
deliver to a Whitehall timetable. That is a contradiction in terms | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
that we had devolution with one hand, but on the other at the | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
Secretary of State can pull things back into the centre. By proposal -- | :52:54. | :53:01. | |
by proposal, is that they'rd at and be an and be an independent pendant | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
cannot not made of State and his advisers, but actually incltding | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
representatives of local government with a devolution is taking place, | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
national health service so that the medical side of this can be but that | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
effectively, separate from the Secretary of State and able to stop | :53:18. | :53:25. | |
the constant process that h`s driven devolution, which is the | :53:26. | :53:27. | |
interference of Whitehall, often in the very short-term because | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
somebody, somewhere, unknown, and the Department of Health accident | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
not like what that's actually does not like what you're doing. That the | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
legislation were about to p`ss into the domain today, they stay there | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
for many years to come. And that the current head Secretary of State is | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
committed to the public the powers. But the future secretary max wish to | :53:56. | :53:57. | |
suck all of that power back to Whitehall. That is always the | :53:58. | :54:06. | |
problem. What would happen hn that eventuality it is the memos was | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
passed? There will be an independent panel, who would keep an eyd on this | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
to make sure that it was not the honourable gentleman, or soleone | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
more aligned, that it would be quite possible for the independent panel | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
to blow the whistle and say you have not given this particular area, | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
whether it's in field or Stokes or wherever, you have not given them | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
the chance to prove that thhs part of devolution of the health service | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
is working effectively. You have come in with a particular vhew, at | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
particular scandal needed to react, or some sort of financial problem | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
needing to react. And not doing it on the basis of the good of the | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
people in the area. But retrieving from the people in the localities, | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
to devolve effectively and the Jews helped our effectively. The Minister | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
looks puzzled, but I am at ` loss to why he would not want that safeguard | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
if he was not the Minister concerned. Being a little concerned | :55:18. | :55:28. | |
that someone in government light not have the best interests at heart | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
because they have a bigger, broader plan in mind. That is the opposite | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
of devolution, and thereford what I am seeking to do that in pl`ce a | :55:37. | :55:44. | |
flimsy barrier, but again the mouse can squeak at the state parole or if | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
something is happening wherd Whitehall which. Because of their | :55:48. | :55:55. | |
power, that massive the centre of gravity that Whitehall constitutes | :55:56. | :55:57. | |
and a tremendous centralised political system. Some obst`cle stop | :55:58. | :56:06. | |
this part of devolution frol disappearing once again into the | :56:07. | :56:07. | |
black hole of Whitehall. Is amendment to 60 being moved by | :56:08. | :56:22. | |
the opposition? There is an opposition amendment, and I wonder | :56:23. | :56:38. | |
if it is being moved or not? Sorry, New Clause 12. Mr Deputy Spdaker, | :56:39. | :56:47. | |
thank you for calling me. I am happy to respond to this sure deb`te | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
dealing with the group of alendments and new clauses that are down in the | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
order paper. Particularly, the Clause nine in the name of ly right | :56:59. | :57:08. | |
honourable friend the Member for -- amendment 60, which has just been | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
moved by the Member for Nottingham North, and I would like to speak to | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
New Clause 12 in the name of the honourable member for hands worth | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
briefly. There are three technical amendments which the governlent | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
wishes to move, which I will come to very briefly. Abney responds to the | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
debate if I may. I think colleagues for moving the new clauses, and the | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
amendments. In relation to New Clause nine, the Member for all team | :57:39. | :57:47. | |
himself West would amend secondary legislation to require that each | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
constituent part of a combined authority should be consultdd on any | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
major health care reorganis`tion area in addition to the combined | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
authority being consulted. Dach constituent local authority would be | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
able to confer any power to the Secretary of State without such a | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
referral having to be made by the combined authority. As might right | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
honourable friend knows well, at present proposals for | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
reconfiguration must mean the government... Robust patient | :58:18. | :58:26. | |
engagement and support for patient choice. At present, any loc`l | :58:27. | :58:39. | |
authority has the right to raise issues about a reconfigurathon, and | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
has the responsibility to do so My understanding is that this right | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
absolutely remained. I take my friend's point about this h`ving | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
just been given to the combhned authority. I do not know, bdcause of | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
the relationships between local authorities there, whether the local | :58:58. | :59:04. | |
authority would have any rights to reserve the authority to itself In | :59:05. | :59:07. | |
the meeting Allan meantime, I think that I have one safeguard to | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
mention, and perhaps another to put two and. This also applies to the | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
honourable general summit the .net gentleman. The Secretary of State | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
will only accept a recommendation for dilution if it is best hnterest | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
of health and the area, and if it will improve health outcomes. He | :59:30. | :59:37. | |
must do so by order. There hs nothing in any legislation that that | :59:38. | :59:43. | |
is being passed which is repuiring others and authority to takd on a | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
National Health Service function. They must do so because thex wish, | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
but there must be a clear ottcome that the risks -- Secretary of State | :59:51. | :59:59. | |
to maintain his duties... All of the duties that he has are observed Be | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
Secretary of State is not going to sign in order, therefore, if he does | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
not think that the outcomes for health are going to be improved for | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
the area. The Secretary of State is entitled to put in the order what he | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
wishes. That order is then dictated in the house, and asked to be passed | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
as an order. Walk and say to my honourable friend is that -, what I | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
can say is that it will be absolutely possible for the | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
Secretary of State to put in the order that the individual | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
authorities that make up a combined authority would have the right to | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
make representations to the Secretary of State about anx | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
reconfiguration. I can give him the assurance, that if we do not find | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
that the legislation is as H believe it to be, which has retained that | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
right for the local authority, then firstly in order in relation to his | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
local authority will contain that safeguard. Why would also lhke to | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
offer to my right honourabld friend, if you would consider withdrawing | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
the amendment, is that before the matter goes before the Housd of | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
Lords again, he would check to see whether the legislation is `s I | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
believe it is, because if it is then the amendment will not be | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
necessary. If it was not as I believe it to be, then the safeguard | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
in the order is the double `ssurance which I give him, because that | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
safeguard would be in the order that the present Secretary of St`te would | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
intend to deliver. I am grateful to my friend. He is seeking to be very | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
helpful. I think that the dhfficulty that exists is that the safdguards | :01:40. | :01:48. | |
that he proposes really depdnds upon the movement of the devoluthon of. | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
My concern is that when a power has been divulged, it is possible that a | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
reconfiguration might then happen. That might not be in the interest of | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
by the constituents want. It is what can be done at that point that is | :02:06. | :02:13. | |
the crucial. At that point, the order that the Secretary of State | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
will have signed to allow the dilution in the first place will | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
allow the authority to make the representation that he is looking | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
for. The order does not just apply to at the moment Toni order of the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
dilution. It apply to the stbstance of the dilution, which is the | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
exercise of the health powers which the combined authority would have | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
taken on a. What I'm saying to my honourable friend is that in respect | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
of a reconfiguration, which takes place under the combined authority, | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
what you order will safeguard is the right of the local authoritx, | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
individually, to make representations to the Secrdtary of | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
State. It is guaranteed not just at the point of dilution, but hn the | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
exercise of powers under dilution. If I might take this further, I was | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
avoiding being too specific about the proposals for obvious rdasons. | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
In the event that the proposals were to be set aside this week, `nd new | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
reorganisation proposals were to be brought forward, if he could give me | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
an absolute assurance and ehther under the existing legislathon, or | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
under measures that he would introduce in the House of Lords the | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
individual local authorities would retain the freedom to refer any | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
referral to a Mac reorganis`tion of. Then I would be satisfied. Lr Deputy | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
Speaker, I believe that that assurance is present in existing | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
legislation. We would make sure that in the House of Lords that ht was. I | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
would also query why the local authority has given up this right in | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
the first place? If he wants to retain the rights, perhaps ht might | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
want to take the rights back from the combined authority. I think that | :03:52. | :03:59. | |
he has to understand that this is the endemic in the nature of the | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
process. As we see, increashngly powers transferred to the local | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
authorities -- from the loc`l authorities to the combined level, | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
it will become more and mord commonplace, and these new | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
arrangements will become entrenched. That is why it is so very, very | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
important that at this point we make sure that the proper safegu`rds are | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
in place, and that we know that .. I'm try to insist the Minister who I | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
think need a moment longer. I make the decisions... And I restdd with | :04:38. | :04:51. | |
my friend and I believe that legislation doesn't currently | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
provide the reassurance that he doubted that I undertake to them | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
that before the matter is concluded in the House of Lords, we whll make | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
sure that that assurance is there. He is absolutely right to m`ke sure | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
that his local authority has the opportunity to make representations | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
when it meets. I ensure that the legislation does that, but we will | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
make certain. It may well bd that the current legislation covdrs this | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
eventuality, but the governlent this evening is moving new amendlent 34, | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
which makes it very clear that local government will not be constlted. If | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
the honourable Desmond which is to intervene on amendment 34, he will | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
see that local authorities would have to say whatsoever if ddvolved | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
powers are taken back to thd government. I will cover amdndment | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
34 in a moment. Maybe I could speak to amendment 34 before I turn to | :05:57. | :06:05. | |
amendment 60 in the name of the honourable member for Nottingham | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
North. Just to make clear what amendment 34 is about. It mhrrors | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
part of an amendment 19, and the men's club 17 of the bill to provide | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
that the requirements for combined authority and local authority | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
consent do not apply to regtlations revoking previous chancellors of | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
health service functions under Clause 16. Subsections one D and one | :06:25. | :06:34. | |
half, that amendment 19 would add, to be inserted by Clause seven into | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
the local... They have the same effect in relation to health | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
functions in section five A that are about. In the event that it becomes | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
appropriate to restore NHS functions, this can be achidved | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
without the need for consent of the combined authority, and loc`l | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
authorities concerned. This reflects the fundamental principles for | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
health dilution as reflected in Clause 18 of the bill, which builds | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
an amendment moved in the other place, that key responsibilhties for | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
the Secretary of State for the health and the NHS remain unchanged | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
in any devolution arrangements. We would envisage only using the powers | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
to revoke, in those circumstances where it was clear, the duthes and | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
standards such as those refdrencing Clause 18 were not being met. | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
Revoking the transfer was the best option to achieve the necessary | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
equipment and performance. The Secretary of State's abilitx to use | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
this power supports the key principle that the House has already | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
agreed, and that the House of Lords was insisted upon, that nothing | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
about devolution settlements in the Mac impinges on the duties of the | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
Secretary of State in terms of the NHS, including preventive hdalth | :07:51. | :07:59. | |
service, having quality service and in regard to the NHS Constitution. | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
The other procedural requirdments and preliminary conditions will | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
continue to apply, such as the requirement that the Ministdr of | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
making regulations must consider that the instrument is likely to | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
lead to an improvement in the exercise of the function concerned, | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
and that Parliament must approve the secondary legislation. Ami hn | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
straightforward terms what this is about and why. The House is already | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
agreed that it wants to ret`in the National Health Service, evdn if the | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
National Health Service functions are devolved to local authorities. | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
That means that the Secretary of State duties in -- as I mentioned | :08:37. | :08:45. | |
early, if he Secretary of State signed off these powers to | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
commission services to a local authority, he has got to be sure | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
that in doing so, it is in the best interest of health, and that the | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
quality of health will be ilproved. Otherwise, he is just not going to | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
do it. They would not be anx consents or anything else. He would | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
not going -- you would not do it. If he signed off, however, it hs that | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
he is satisfied that there will be an improvement in the quality of | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
health. Should that fail, should the National Health Service functions us | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
-- should they fail, it is the Secretary of State's duty to take | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
those powers back, because he is responsibility for the delivery of | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
the NHS standards. If he cannot be satisfied, he is going to h`ve to | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
take it back. Anders the circumstances, it is possible in | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
terms of this agreement, th`t local authorities might want to challenge | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
that. Is a duties are absoltte, and that is why the requirement for | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
consent is coming out. We are talking about a circumstancd that no | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
one expects to happen. The Secretary of State is not going to devolve, | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
but if he needs to take powdrs back to maintain his duties, he lust have | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
the power to do so. Even if he has to do so, it goes before thd house, | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
and the house makes its mind on it. That is the basis for amendlent 34, | :10:01. | :10:08. | |
and the answer to amendment 60. The difference between decentralization | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
and devolution. This is the Secretary of State pushing the power | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
to the localities Giuliani basis they can then suck you back. This is | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
given power and allowing thd local authorities to exercise that. There | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
is no way in which the local authority can intervene in this | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
process. The local authoritx is a bystander, as an agent of the | :10:33. | :10:42. | |
central government. The honourable member is coming at it from the | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
wrong point of view. He comds at it from the point of view that the | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
Secretary of State is delibdrately pushing something toward an | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
authority. The authorities `re asking him for something. The | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
Secretary of State would not do this unless authorities came to him and | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
said that they wanted to do this. He would not agree unless he thought he | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
was in the best interest of health. It is not his personal judgdment, it | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
is his duty. If those functhons are not performed properly, his ultimate | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
duty, which the House has already agreed must be to take powers back. | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
The gentleman is approaching it from the point view that there is | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
something about the Secretary of State that he wants to challenge the | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
us -- authority. It is the duties that he has, the statue as put upon | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
them, that the house says that he must retain when NHS powers are | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
devolved. That is what compdlled this amendment, nothing elsd. For | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
the last time, I must finish because his. If the Secretary of St`te is | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
doing the right thing, which I'm sure he would be, and I'm stre that | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
the local authority would think that it was doing the right thing, my | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
amendment and in the New Cl`use it lies there to be a local government | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
and a medical NHS represent`tive judging who is right in this | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
decision about central power and local power. They too would make the | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
right decision. Let me to ttrn then, if I may, to the independent panel | :12:05. | :12:12. | |
decision in Casa 16. The bill provides an effective framework to | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
provide a multi-volt approach to health and social care, while | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
ensuring that there are appropriate safeguards in terms of the NHS, and | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
a clear line of accountabilhty back to the Secretary of State for | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
health. Our objectives for health dilution must be to improve the | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
health and care outcomes for people residing in a particular arda. | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
Clause 18 of the bill requires that where functions are conferrdd by a | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
combined authority, provisions must be made based on the authorhty, | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
including standards in the NHS Constitution. The Secretary of State | :12:47. | :12:54. | |
needs to be satisfied that revoking a transfer would lead to an | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
improvement in statutory functions. It is under the same duty if he | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
revokes, that he is when he granted the power in the first placd. The | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
rib revocation would need to be debated and approved by both houses, | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
and the Secretary of State would be required to make available ` report | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
concerning his decision, including water presentations have bedn made | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
to him in the process. This demonstrates the decision to revoke | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
transfer regulations would only be taken as a result of in-depth | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
consideration as well as engagement with local organizations and sit | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
elementary support. For this reason, I do resist the requirement to | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
convene a panel to review the decision, which would not only be | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
unnecessary, but could also be burdensome and costly. Could lead to | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
delays when it slipped action is required to address perform`nce | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
issues a. It is not necessary. The Secretary of State, any exercise of | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
his powers, already has to do what did gentleman is asking. With the | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
need to move with his speed, he needs to to retain the powers. It is | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
accountable to Parliament, `nd you got to say exactly why he is doing | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
it. It is straightforward. Dither he has the power to deliver his duties, | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
or he doesn't, and he can do it without convening an independent | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
panel to second-guess. It is his responsibility, and if he exercises | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
his powers unreasonably, thdre is a judicial review. And local `uthority | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
is doubly protected. If the local authority made a decision, ht knows | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
its people, it knows it is hn a city or a rural area and make a decision | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
like free dental checks for three-year-olds, and the centre | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
doesn't like it for some re`son or other, and the Minister can pull | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
that back, that power back that has been given. It is not about not | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
liking it. The Secretary of State has a statutory duties that | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
Parliament has given in. He has to exercise his power both to grant and | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
to revoke based on those duties Not because he likes, or doesn't like | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
it. It is that statutory duty that he is responsible for, they so | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
important. The House of Lords Presstek, the house here has | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
accepted it. It is the maintenance of those duties that is so | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
important. Like or dislike does not come into it. If I can make further | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
progress with the other amendments that the government wanted to put | :15:29. | :15:35. | |
through. Having dealt with `mendment 34, could I deal with amendlent 35, | :15:36. | :15:44. | |
a further amendment to Clause 1 ? Cause a further amendment to Clause | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
18? Clause 18 devolution of health functions, including where certain | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
functions and duties should be continued to not be held | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
nationally. The Clause was hnserted by an amendment tabled by the double | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
award in other place and was amendment -- amended to givd clarity | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
to support it's valuable prhnt. He provides that regulatory functions | :16:09. | :16:10. | |
be provided in health functhons and would not be available to transfer | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
to a local authority. Amendlent 35 makes clear that in addition to the | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
NHS responsibilities for assurance and reviews for clinical groups all | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
it supervisory and oversight functions, set out in Chaptdr A of | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
part two of the top 2006 act, Alaska. These include consthtutional | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
arrangements, including thehr establishment. Just briefly, men and | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
46, 47, 48, and 49, they amdnd schedule for it which makes | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
amendments to the health service act of 2006 to provide more flexible | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
options for local bodies, including combined authorities to work with | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
each other and NHS England `nd respect of NHS acts. One amdndment | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
introduced by schedule for hnclude provision under section 13 @ of the | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
2006 act for new devolved arrangements whereby NHS is able to | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
delegate its functions to a group of local commissioners exercishng | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
together, or to make decisions to exercise its decisions with a group. | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
It must consist of at least one equivocal commission group, anyone | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
combined authority or local authority, and the dog Katid and | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
partners exercising the function jointly. Amendment 40 six, 47, and | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
Fortier are minor and technhcal which made it clear that devolved | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
arrangements may relate to one or more NHS England functions. Briefly, | :17:40. | :17:51. | |
amendments 12 was moved, New Clause 12 was moved to review the dilution | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
of health services. If I max briefly, that, would requird the | :17:58. | :18:05. | |
Secretary of State within 14 months published a review of amendlents. | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
The review must include an assessment of how standards are | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
being maintained, and the qtality out and outcomes being delivered by | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
the devolved health service. Maintaining the integrity of the NHS | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
service and standard and dividing accountability for outcomes is a key | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
objective, reflected by vit`l safeguards provided for by the Bill. | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
In order that we have already discussed in order to confer the | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
health functions may, if thd proposal to do so satisfied the | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
Secretary of State, the transfer will lead to improvement of | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
statutory functions. Again, as the house has debated a number of | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
times, the requirements to lonitor and regulate the functions that have | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
been devolved remain exactlx the same as they have been with the NHS. | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
It is the Secretary of Statd's responsibility to make sure that the | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
quality of services devolved is of NHS quality, and for that rdason a | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
full formal review is not necessary. There will be constant | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
review of the quality of work that is done locally am a and thdrefore | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
putting a formal review into the act is not necessary. It is | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
inconceivable that the authority delivering the functions on behalf | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
of the NHS would not do so, and keep them, and the quality of an literary | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
work and monitoring network ensures that there is a full review carried | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
out in any case. I hope, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the new causes may not | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
be moved, and that I have bden able to satisfy the house with the | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
functions they need to be rdtained by the Secretary of State. H also | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
hope that the technical amendments that I have been through will also | :19:52. | :20:04. | |
be agreed by the house. I w`nt to speak on a New Clause 18, Ndw Clause | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
12, which the Minister has lade his case for turning down. I thhnk that | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
it is important that we need to build in a review stage into the | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
devolution of health. Siblex because, the implications of this | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
bill for the endless NHS and social care system are not clear. This bill | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
regulates for important new powers to remove functions from NHS | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
hospitals, commissioners, and other bodies, and transfer them to be | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
local or regional authority. Depending on the implementation | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
interpretation and the limits on the powers, transfers of powers like | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
these may fundamentally reshape the health services in the years two,. | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
We have to make sure that the NHS State national. We do not w`nt a | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
lottery of health care, depdnding on where you live. Accountabilhty and | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
scrutiny remain crucial for a well run National Health Service, | :21:04. | :21:05. | |
delivering the best care th`t it can for everyone, the matter whdre they | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
live. This bill, and the pace with which the agenda is moving, leaves a | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
number of unresolved questions, some of which I would like to ask. Will | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
central and regional governlent argue over the responsibility for | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
meeting population needs, and making disc that doesn't make diffhcult | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
decisions? Such as closing hospital or propping up health care | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
providers? Will happen to neighbouring areas? Does it this | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
bill create the possibility for NHS funding melt into a wider, regional | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
authority budgets, and making protecting impossible? Given the | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
importance of health care spending, this needs clarity and scrutiny | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
Devolution to combined authorities in the bill may actually have a | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
centralising affect for manx functions, taking power awax from | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
consuls representing smaller communities, and clinical | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
commissioning groups represdnting constituents. Although this may be | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
desirable in some cases, it is also important to look at how thd | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
positive elements these bring in health and social care can be | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
preserved. Clauses seven, 16, and 17 allow for the transfer of hdalth | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
care commission responsibilhties from clinical commissioning groups | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
and NHS England to local governments. I am concerned about | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
the impact that this will h`ve on the NHS, especially with regards to | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
the local variation and service levels, fair allocation of | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
resources, and the cross-border impacting decisions and. We on the | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
opposition benches believe that there should be a statutory duty on | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
the Secretary of State for health to secure and provide universal health | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
care, and core national NHS standards should remain in place. I | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
don't have time. Although there is a range of potential... Just to make | :22:56. | :23:04. | |
it clear, which may make elbow to her, the Minister assurances they | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
have given, she knew was to do other things with her. I thank thdm for | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
the intervention. Although H see a range of possible, potential | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
benefits arising from the devolution, in particular the | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
opportunity to achieve greater integration of services between | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
health and social care, and also with public health and other areas | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
in the local government control There are a number of outst`nding | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
questions that will need to be resolved, largely focused on | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
resolving the tension betwedn local and national arrangements, `nd the | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
extent to which the national into the National Health Service will be | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
preserved. We are currently witnessing is not dilution, the | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
model was adopted in the de`l appears closer to delegation at the | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
formal devolution outlined hn this bill. As we on the opposition bench | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
understand that, there are no plans to use the order making powdr | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
created to the bill to transfer additional health functions to local | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
authorities. Any health-rel`ted orders will only be used to enable | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
combined authorities to share the health duty that already sits with | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
local authorities. I would like to seek the Minister's assurance that | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
the devolution of power would be reviewed in a year to make sure that | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
standards and the quality of services have not declined. Indeed, | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
that is what New Clause 12 outlines, and what would seem to be an | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
eminently reasonable request with such an important issue as our | :24:39. | :24:39. | |
nation's health. Have now put the question, `nd I | :24:40. | :24:55. | |
leave with John, the new close. Nine, we now come to New Cl`use ten, | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
and New Clause ten, will be added to the bill, As many as are of the | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". Clear the lobby! | :25:05. | :26:54. | |
The question is that New Cl`use can be added to the bill, as many to be | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
opinion say I'm back. Or! Or! B ayes to the right, 19 , | :27:00. | :38:23. | |
the noes to the left, 289. The ayes... The noes Cavett, the | :38:24. | :38:55. | |
noes it. Minister to move government amendment, 4-6. The question is that | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
government amendments, 4-6 be made, As many as are of the opinion, say | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. Opposition to move | :39:07. | :39:15. | |
amendment 58, formerly... That amendment 58 be made. As many as are | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". No! No! Cle`r the | :39:20. | :39:29. | |
lobby! The question is that amendmdnt 8 be | :39:30. | :41:01. | |
made, As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no . We | :41:02. | :41:10. | |
will have the tellers for the noes, and ayes. | :41:11. | :47:26. | |
Order! Order! The ayes to dhvide, 195, the noes to the left, 290. | :47:27. | :50:18. | |
The ayes to the right, 195, the noes to the left, 290. The noes have it. | :50:19. | :50:32. | |
Unlock! Move amendment two, formerly stopping the question is, that | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
amendment to be made, As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the | :50:36. | :50:36. | |
contrary, "no". No! No! Order! The noes have it. CHDERING | :50:37. | :51:04. | |
Minister to move government amendment 7-29. The question is that | :51:05. | :51:12. | |
government meant amendment... As many as are of the opinion, say | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. We now come to | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
amendment 56, to which the government has tabled manuscript | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
amendment a. A first hall, Lr Vickers to move amendment 56. Move | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
formerly stopping the questhon is that amendment 56 be made. H now | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
call the Minister to move alendment a to amendment 56. Move forlerly | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
stopping the question is th`t amendment a be made to amendment 56, | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. The | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
ayes have it. Minister to move government amendment 55. Thd | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
question is that government amendment 30-55, As many as are of | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. | :52:01. | :52:08. | |
Consideration completed third reading. Minister to move third | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
reading. Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to move | :52:14. | :52:23. | |
that the Bill be now read for a third time. I would like to thank | :52:24. | :52:31. | |
the... The Minister is moving the bill now. Order! Order! Orddr! Thank | :52:32. | :52:39. | |
you, Minister. I would like to thank all Honorable members from `ll sides | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
of the House, who have contributed to the development of the bdll, and | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
particularly, those are participated through the extensive scruthny that | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
would have had here on the floor of the House, but of the committee | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
stage, and the report stage. The House will have observed th`t we | :52:54. | :53:00. | |
have been... That we have observed a principle of listening to the views | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
of members, both in committde and reports, and made a number of | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
improvements, to the Bill. Having taken series representations from | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
right across the House of the public record thanks to my officials, and | :53:14. | :53:15. | |
to the clerks who have guiddd us through jointly every Clausd of the | :53:16. | :53:22. | |
Bill. I would like to thank the councils of every party, and the | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
business leaders across the country, who have helped did this | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
build the momentum it deserves. ... Which began in the last Parliament. | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
It is worth noting, Madam Ddputy Speaker, that important, though it | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
is, the bill is not the onlx means by which devolution is advanced For | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
example, the Chancellor's announcement that 100% of btsiness | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
rates would be retained by local government, rather than sent to be | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
treasurer, is a significant step forward for the greater inddpendent | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
-- independent of local govdrnment. There are three particular sections | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
of the bill, that I would lhke to commence. The first is to allow the | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
latent potential for economhc growth across all parts of the country to | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
be better unleashed. It has been a bill and a process that has brought | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
businesses right across the country into close cooperation with local | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
authority leaders, and the degree of enthusiasm for it this that has been | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
gratifying tonight. And allows reform, where civic leaders, and | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
counsellors desire it. This is a bill, that proceeds from thd | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
bottom-up, rather than the top-down. That is a novel bhll, in | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
of the history of the legislation of the government that this hotse has | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
considered. It is a bill th`t doesn't something the previous | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
governments have balked at, which is to transfer deliberately powers | :54:55. | :55:01. | |
that... Held at exercise and Whitehall, two authorities `cross | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
the land. And the inside of this bill has recognition of the subject | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
is coming together, if local people can be given their voice and be | :55:11. | :55:20. | |
I would say that the breakthrough is that not all places need to be the | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
same. One of the glories of this house is that we know that dach one | :55:27. | :55:28. | |
of our constituencies is very different from each other. The place | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
is the same, and a world in which policy is identical in everx part of | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
the country is a world in which policy is not well set for | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
particular parts of the country Its place has a different histories | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
different strengths, differdnt capacities. It has been the case in | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
the past that to proceed at the speed of the slowest has halpered | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
efforts to devolve in the p`st. The approach that we have taken is to | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
invite every part of the cotntry to make its proposals from the bottom | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
up to the government, and to encourage those with the most | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
ambitious proposals to advance with them, while encouraging othdr places | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
to find their feet and to t`ke the powers that they would like to take | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
for themselves and for their people. He will recall an amendment to 6, | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
can he give the house and assurance that 56 will not be used by the | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
government in order to forcd change on any local authority? I whll | :56:37. | :56:44. | |
indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. He raises an important point to. The | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
whole process through which we operate and negotiate has bden to | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
recognise that the best ide`s come from a local places themselves. A | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
previous local government bhll have attempted with unhappy consdquences | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
to impose a government view of how local government should be organised | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
on a reluctant local authorhties. This bill does not that, and the | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
Clause that my honourable friend mentions will not be used for that | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
purpose either. Rather, it hs to bring local communities, local | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
authorities into a discussion about what is best for that area. The | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
Secretary of State, as usual, is handling these difficult issues in a | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
very consensual and careful way For the point of argument, as I | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
understand it, he wants to tse amendment 56 to encourage a | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
discussion. Discussions are fine. Is a County Council wanted to tse | :57:48. | :57:55. | |
amendment 56 two driver for a authority against the wishes of a | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
district council, I take it that the County Council could not usd | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
amendment 56 to override thd district counsel? Why say is that | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
all of the negotiations that we have had have achieved consensus locally. | :58:09. | :58:18. | |
That is my approach. What bdcause allows is for us to require those | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
conversations to take place, and that no particular authoritx can | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
reasonably refuse even to dhscuss the potential for reform. I think | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
that that is right, and it hs reasonable for neighbouring | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
authorities to have convers`tions about what is the best way to | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
proceed. As my friend said, the powers are already there, and we | :58:42. | :58:49. | |
thought in responding to thd case made, first in committee by our | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
honourable friend for Carlisle, and then again in the report, it was | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
worth having on the face of the bill as a pilot, the ability to, as it | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
were, encourage the authorities to have that conversation. Anything | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
that is agreed, needs to be agreed by the Secretary of State and indeed | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
buy this house. He can be absolutely sure that the way that I wotld | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
propose to exercise my authority in this is to maintain precisely the | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
preference for consensus th`t has taken into a so far. I think that it | :59:27. | :59:33. | |
is reflecting that in the fdw years since we started negotiating, first | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
with assistance, and then whth local authorities and their busindsses to | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
the growth deals, that therd has been a tremendous enthusiasl to the | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
country. Members have spoken at various points in the debatd about | :59:47. | :59:53. | |
how the degree of collaboration and involvement of businesses, `nd the | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
local authorities is very mtch greater than has been experhenced in | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
the past. That is absolutelx the case, because if we are to prosper | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
and succeed as a nation, evdry part of the country has to fire on all | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
cylinders. This important bhll helps drive that forward. During the | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
course of the debate, many amendments have been made and have | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
resulted in the bill's improvements. We have accepted a need for a | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
various reports to come to this house on the progress of thd | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
devolution so that they can be debated, and I am grateful to my | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
honourable friend the Member for Ottoman sale, who in partictlar made | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
a strong case that members hn this house should be involved in the | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
scrutiny, the ongoing scruthny, of the deals that will be agredd to. I | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
am only too willing to have my feet held to the fire on this, as the | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
chairman of the select commhttee has observed a number of times hn these | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
proceedings. Invite earlier incarnation, I published a progress | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
report of all government departments as to whether we were living up to | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
our commitments on devolution. I fully expect that the scruthny of | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
the house will be equally exacting when it comes to the receipt of | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
these reports. It is import`nt that we have devolution of these reports. | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
It is important that we havd devolution all over counties, and | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
the district, right across the country has been very powerful. When | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
we issued an invitation for places to go forward, 30 places across the | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
country have submitted proposals. They cover almost all of thd | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
country. The bill does enact some of our commitments in the manifesto to | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
create a Metro Mayor for grdater Manchester, and indeed to create | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
mayoral authorities for those great cities in our country that have | :01:51. | :01:58. | |
concluded deals with the government. In the response to proposals, again | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
from the bottom of the studx with greater Manchester, have bedn able | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
to enter into discussion about the devolution of health matters, so | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
that the two sides of the s`me coin of social care can be better | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
administered locally, jointly between the NHS local government, | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
and then pleased that we have been able to make amendments on those | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
matters. I am pleased that we have ended the proceedings on thhs bill | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
with a degree of consensus between all parties. That was very luch our | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
intention from the outset to. We started with a degree of discord, | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
and I think that in the second reading I had high hopes th`t I | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
would be able to persuade, that we had high hopes that I would be able | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
to persuade, that we'd all be I think that as we have scruthnised | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
the bill accepted amendments from all sides of the house, including | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
from the backbenchers, I thhnk that we have strengthened the bill. I am | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
grateful to the shadow front bench for having modified their vhew, and | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
I hope that we might hear possibly even a degree of enthusiasm from | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
the, I will be careful on that, from the front bench opposite. I think | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
that this is an important moment for us. This was in the first Qteen s | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
speech, the bill that was one of the bills introduced first into this | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
session of Parliament. In the second reading, I said that this w`s an | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
historic bill that would do something that our predecessors have | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
not done, and that our succdssors will look back on and see that this | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
was a piece of legislation that changed the direction of policy and | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
that builds up our cities, towns, and counties across the country so | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
that their discretion, their power, their ability to set their own | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
future was much greater than in the past. I will give way. I th`nk him | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
for giving way. Like many on this site, I praise him for all of the | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
work and had a third that hd has done on bringing this bill to the | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
house. Does he accept that some areas might need more time to come | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
to the bridge devolution de`l, rather than rushing through what may | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
be a bad deal, and can he ultimately assure those areas that thex will | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
not be penalised for taking their time over what might be, for certain | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
geographical areas, a difficult decision? I will give that `ssurance | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
to him. I know that he has played an active role talking to his local | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
authorities, and his local businesses to build a consensus Is | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
very clear that different places will proceed in different places, as | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
they have done already, but the invitation to every part of the | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
country to go forward and ndgotiate a deal that is right for thdm is | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
absolutely something that mx honourable friends are completely | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
committed to. We make this offer to all parts of the country, too, and | :05:07. | :05:14. | |
propose what would make the biggest difference to local places? This | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
bill exists to paraphrase, to show areas to themselves. We can, with | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
this bill, Alisa growth, jobs, growth, he should do everyone across | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
the country has to hope for. Because of that, I commend this bill to the | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
House. The question is that the bill now be read a third time. Thank you | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
very much. This bill is cle`rly a milestone in the direction of | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
devolution. We very much welcome the spirit in which the House ddbated | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
these matters on floor. It was a good thing to have the debate with a | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
full house rather than an committee. We thank the civil servants, the | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
staff of the house, your self, and all of the other speakers who | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
preside over our hearings. Hs true, as well, the ministers seemdd to be | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
consensual mainly with their own backbenchers. We ourselves try to be | :06:14. | :06:23. | |
positive, but I think that ht is a milestone without doubt in the | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
direction of devolution. We do feel that the bill was marred by | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
committed the. We were frustrated with what we got was a lack of | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
ambition and. Without that luch of the bill appeared to be shaped by | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
number 11, rather than having been created in the counties and villages | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
of England. It is simply, this bill simply does not match up to the | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
devolution achievements that we achieved in the Scotland, W`les and | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
London. The truth is, I think that we might all agree on this, and | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
let's see if there is a consensus on this. The UK is one of the lost | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
centralised countries in thd world. 72% of all public expenditure is | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
directly controlled either by the Prime Minister, or his ministers. | :07:17. | :07:26. | |
Contrast that... There is a long way for us to go. The cities in the | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
devolution of bill does little in the end, when you think abott it, to | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
challenge the major problem which we are all trying to grapple whth. I | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
think and, and the Minister think as well. Does anyone think that the | :07:42. | :07:57. | |
government's attempts to... The case for a proper, far reaching tp | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
political settlement for thd day devolution of power is overwhelming, | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
and I think that it is a case based on economic and social justhce, as | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
well on it to the Mac as well as on a more equitable distribution of | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
power. The case which must be made against centralisation, not made by | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
this bill, but in a milestone in the direction that we want to trouble in | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
the. We try to engage with the government, and we sought to amend | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
the bill in the process to lake improvements. The amendment to try | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
to decouple the idea that you have to have an mayor to secure | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
devolution. Our amendment on the finance which will help stability to | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
local councils to a multiye`r funding for more fiscal autonomy. | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
All of these would help the local government to be more autonomous and | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
more powerful, and have no government and local communhties. We | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
also press the government on 16 and 17-year-olds. And report st`tes we | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
sought to have a debate on the general power competence. If local | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
governments is to dominate, it must have a competent and able to take | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
action in any area which is relevant to its community. We also stpported | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
the government on the amendlent which gave the possibility to local | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
district councils the right to become elected mayors in | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
metropolitan areas. The truth is that every single one of our | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
amendments, which were designed to extend powers to local commtnities, | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
every single one of them was rejected by the government. Not one | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
was attempted. In my inquirx, I do not suppose that we will get an | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
answer. What happened to thd Chancellor plug the Mac's plan to | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
scrap laws? Horrific and get some kind of assurance, whether or not | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
that is at the end of it for this Parliament? Is simply not a majority | :09:59. | :10:06. | |
in the house. Looking forward, if the bill is considered in the other | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
place, there is a dilemma for counsellors. Should they sign up for | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
devolution that deals with the Chancellor, should they seek the new | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
powers on offer, they should be simultaneously aware that what is on | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
offer is a delegation, rathdr than real fiscal independence. Wd on this | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
this site will not be second guessing what counsellors at the | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
side. We will support them `s they struggle to preserve servicds while | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
regenerating local economies. The bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
represents more limited, I think top-down model of devolution, | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
because it insists on imposhng a form of government, Metro m`yors on | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
the cities, even where therd are a lecture it's so recently rejected | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
them. The economic model on offer seeks to encourage is a | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
cash-strapped local authority competing with other authorhties | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
probably by reducing business rates in order to attract investmdnt. This | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
is a limited revision. In its place, we would like to see a real Alen, | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
innovative, local state the Mac state working in partnership with | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
civil society and all the chtizens. The bill is silent on what has been | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
sent to the Mac described as double devolution. Empowering individuals | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
and their in equal struggle with state bureaucracy. Will comd and we | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
are supporting the bill, because it offers a faltering step forward I | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
do not think that the Chancdllor's model of devolution outlined in this | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
bill will endure in this bill will endure any and. That it will not | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
last his limited leadership ambitions. This is the view that we | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
took from the beginning, reflected in our MM and. In the second | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
reading. I believe that if the Parliament is a serious abott | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
tackling inequality and cre`ting a more balanced economy and society, | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
we should bring forward a r`dically current distribution of powdr and | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
authority in our country, and maybe even move toward a federal | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
settlement. In it done back the future of our settlement max depend | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
on this. We will begin our conversation with the British people | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
about the right way forward. We ll be immensely strengthened bx the | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
arrival on these benches by the honourable member... His | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
common-sense, practical sochalism in action, rooted in his own community, | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
and the best of local government has to offer. It points the way forward | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
for Britain. I very much hope that Mr Speaker that before much time | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
elapses, the Liberal party will be in the position to legislatd for | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
real, and substantial devolttion in England, just as once with ht for | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
London, Scotland and Wales. Thank you. I said in the second rdading | :13:01. | :13:10. | |
that I supported the general principles of the bill, and the | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
underlying intentions behind it and I still do. I have got reservations | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
about the pace of change, I would like it to go faster. About the | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
extent of the change, I would like to go further. And about sole | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
details about elected mayors and their position, which I think is the | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
case despite the done aisle about that. Nevertheless, this bill is | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
very important for it connect it to symbolism, and it's a direction | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
It's a direction of travel, which when I was first elected in 199 , | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
I've never thought I would see in this House of Commons. Is a | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
revelation compared to wherd it was in those days. I think the Secretary | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
of State for which they havd dealt with the debate during the committee | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
and report stages, and listdned to the constructive comments that have | :13:59. | :14:00. | |
been made on both sides of the house. Equally, I would likd to | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
place on record my thanks to local government leaders, particularly | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
those from our Labour side, who control both of the mage -- most of | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
the major cities. The reality is that while they are having their | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
budget's cuts to shreds, thdy are pragmatically prepared to sht down | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
with the same ministers and negotiate devolution deals, because | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
that is it for the benefit of the communities that they represent | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
That says a lot for local council leaders and their approach. I think | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
the Secretary of State and linisters for recognising the concerns that I | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
raised produced by amended 27. I will not go into details as I did | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
before about the Sheffield city region, but I think that it | :14:46. | :14:47. | |
demonstrates an understanding of a wider point, that is that if we are | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
going to get out of these ddals greater growth, better economic | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
performance and the creation of jobs, the bodies that we ard | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
creating have to reflect thd real economy of their areas. Thex should | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
not have regard to the old administrative boundaries as were | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
demonstrated by the regions that existed for many years but did not | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
reflect the economies of thdir areas. Ministers would be bdtter to | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
recognise that to help with the reconstruction of bodies th`t | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
reflect the economic of thehr areas. I think the ministers for that. I | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
think that at some point we'll have to come back at this house `nd | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
reflect on where we have gotten too with the devolution. I think that | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
there are three areas where we will have to do it. First of all, I think | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
that we will have to look at the deals that have been agreed upon, | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
and how successful they are, and what lessons can be learned. Was one | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
area controlled problems or successors that other areas will | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
want to learn from. As a hotse, whether it be on the floor or in the | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
select committee, scrutinishng how well the deals have worked out in | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
practice, whether they have achieved the success that we have wanted and | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
whether those successes can be extended, is going to be an | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
important thing for us to do in practice, whether they have achieved | :16:09. | :16:10. | |
the success that we have wanted and whether those successes can be | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
extended, is going to be an important thing for us to doing this | :16:14. | :16:15. | |
house. Secondly, and I noted that the Secretary of State 's rdference | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
to his performance, I think that the House will want to look at the | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
performance of different governmental departments. I still | :16:21. | :16:22. | |
suspect that there is more enthusiasm in some parts of the | :16:23. | :16:24. | |
government than others about the whole devolution idea. I am sure | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
that he knows his negotiations with his toys and what the realities are. | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
We will want to look at that again. Finally, I want to come back to | :16:36. | :16:44. | |
district deals, because these are deals that reflect particul`r needs | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
of particular areas, and th`t is what deals are all about. To look at | :16:49. | :16:56. | |
the overall position of govdrnment is in this country. Whether having | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
the deals, we want to consider where to take them in the next st`ge, | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
whether there are general principles that we can learn in terms of fiscal | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
devolution. Looking at any local government system in local Durope, | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
you will find that local authorities there, not many have the power to | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
spend money that he central government gives them, but lore | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
power to raise their own revenue as well. I realise that the government | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
has made a step or forwards with business rate. We'll wanted to | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
scrutinize that, but I think that this will be the first stagd in the | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
fiscal devolution, that this bill is mostly about. I would like to take | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
this opportunity to thank mx friends for the thoughtful way in which he | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
has responded to the concerns expressed about amendments 46, | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
because I think that what hd has said Sue to the house tonight will | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
be very helpful. Helpful in ensuring that this is a bill not just about | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
devolution, but also about hllusion, so that things change gradu`lly and | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
work with what people want, rather than having something proposed from | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
the centre top-down. -- illtsion. -- evolution. Ultimately, local people | :18:12. | :18:21. | |
in local government are concerned with having some control ovdr the | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
weight of their own community develops, and the way in whhch | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
planning, particularly, is tnder the control of local people rather than | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
much more remote communities. I can remember when I was, for a short | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
time, and member of the London educational authority. That | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
education authority purportdd to take decisions right across the | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
inner London boroughs on edtcational matters. In relation to the people | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
who were on the society, thdy never ventured outside of their own a | :18:55. | :19:04. | |
ferret area. The danger with very large authorities is that they can | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
lose touch with the issues that cause concern to our constituents, | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
and to local residents. I hope that as we evolve different | :19:17. | :19:24. | |
administrative and representational models for local governments, that | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
we bear in mind that we need to retain the very powerful local | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
involvement in the planning. I also extend to that, speaking on behalf | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
of the people of Christ Church, an agent broke with a church that goes | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
back over 900 years, people also enjoy the opportunity to be able to | :19:46. | :19:53. | |
elect their own local mayor. I think that one of the downsides of some of | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
the proposals is that they could result in people losing the power of | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
being able to elect their own local mayor for their counsel, a person | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
who could speak on behalf of the town. Counsellors bribery, who died | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
Saturday about a year ago, he had the privilege of being the Layor of | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
Christchurch over successivd desk the next decades, in 1966, `nd | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
having four other successivd terms on that. He was typical of ` local | :20:25. | :20:34. | |
person, Bob in the area, trtly with the representing what the community | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
felt. Why not retain the distinctions between the different | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
parts of our country? Why try to merge and homogenize a new of first | :20:45. | :20:52. | |
with Christ church, a lot changed can be achieved by allowing back | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
office services to be worked out together, by having a singld chief | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
executives in stead of multhple chief executive. Let's not lose | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
sight of the fact that local government is, for most people, the | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
body for which they look to dictate decisions in the best interdst of | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
the local citizens. The question is that the bill and not be re`d for | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
the third time. As many as say ayes on the contrary record to. The ayes | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
habit, the ayes have it. Hotse of Commons numbers fund. Movemdnts to | :21:32. | :21:40. | |
move formally. The question is, as on the order paper. This gives us an | :21:41. | :21:49. | |
opportunity to ask the Leaddr of the House whether the House of Commons | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
numbers fund, and the trustdes who we are appointing this evenhng. A | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
number of us feel that the lembers fund, and the statute that hs set up | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
has lost touch with today's reality. I hope that my right honour`ble | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
friend will be able to say, in a very brief response to this debate, | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
that he is minded to have a look at the future constitution of the | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
member's fun, and where it light evolve into a House of Commons | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
benevolent fund to look aftdr those who are dependents, former lembers | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
of this house, and I think that at the moment the benevolent ftnd | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
aspect of the member's fund pays too small a part. I think that there is | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
something to be said for establishing a proper benevolent | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
fund, that could take over some of the responsibilities that the | :22:50. | :22:57. | |
current member's fund has. Can I say that my honourable friend m`kes an | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
important point. It is an issue that is being pursued by our honourable | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
friend the Member for Baldelli. I think that one of the things that we | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
do have to bear in mind, Madam Deputy Speaker, and with dahly - | :23:09. | :23:16. | |
for those who are unfortunate enough to lose their seats into thhs place, | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
there can often be immenselx difficult transition. Often it is | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
not as easy as some outside my think it will be to move into employment. | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
It does not mean that they do not run into difficulties later on in | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
their careers. This place h`s had a long tradition, and honourable | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
tradition in my view, of pahn due attention and looking after those | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
who have served this countrx and house, and who have ultimatdly found | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
themselves in need to. My friend's point about the need for thhs to be | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
a benevolent fund in the future is well worth serious consider`tion to. | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
I understand the point that he is making, and I think that thd new | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
trustees who are in the Mac joining the fund, three excellent | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
authorities tonight, can pl`y an active role and that's. I mhght | :24:06. | :24:12. | |
also, if I may, pay tribute to dad who hasn't done first-class work in | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
this role but who has now moved on. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
my friend makes an important point. I will make sure that his comments | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
tonight are drawn to the trtstees of Hempstead Bale themselves. H will | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
make sure that this is put onto the agenda for commission in thd meeting | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
in the future. This is an area where the house is always done thd right | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
thing in the past, and I thhnk that there is very good reason for us to | :24:44. | :24:44. | |
do the right thing in the ftture. As many as are of the opinion, say | :24:45. | :24:54. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
Business of the House, a December motion, minister to move formally. | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
ayes have it, the ayes have it. Motion number four, on police, | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
minister to move. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Motion nulber | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
five, on capital markets unht, minister to move. As many as are of | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, | :25:29. | :25:38. | |
the ayes have it. I beg to love that the Hal does now adjourn. Mr Mark | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
Williams. Thank you. I'm gr`teful for this opportunity to raise the | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
issue of domestic oil purch`sing syndicates, in my own consthtuency, | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
and throughout many rural areas Across the UK. Seemingly not the | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
most scintillating of titles for a debate, but I will assert that this | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
debate is of some significance, and I'm sure the ministers acknowledged | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
that as well. I'm grateful for this opportunity. The development of the | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
vast domestic oil Finnegan hs important in many areas of the | :26:16. | :26:23. | |
United Kingdom. They are... I welcome the Honorable member. The | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
syndicates are helping many communities save substantial amounts | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
of money by buying their offshore collections. Not unique to rural | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
areas, and I will talk spechfically about rural areas soon. By | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
organising communities, to combine their oil together, whether these | :26:47. | :26:48. | |
are communities of single mothers, or hundreds, they can negothate | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
discounts with suppliers by decreasing number of vehiclds, with | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
the supplies needed to sent to an area, and guarantee purchasds of all | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
the fuel delivered. Said thdre is again that not just for our | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
constituents, but also for the suppliers concerned. This c`n | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
substantially deepen the cost of each member syndicate, and help | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
tackle some of those most pressing problems associated across the field | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
of fuel. The problem of fuel prices is the serious concern and oil | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
communities. It would be thd bigger towns of my constituency, and wealth | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
as a whole, 20% of households still do not have access to gas from the | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
grid, and are relied on the expensive forms of fuel, such as | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
oil, and coal, as their main source of heat. A vast tract of riot - | :27:40. | :27:51. | |
rural Wales, 47 communities across the place, and I put it into | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
context. In my constituency, a majority of households, 69%, do not | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
have access to gas main, and therefore many people are rdliant on | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
more expensive means of heating their homes. Yet, this issud is not | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
limited to Wales. The size of the United Kingdom, from the West | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
country, the Highlands of Scotland, and dare I say more? Deliver | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
households who cannot access Kassman, and therefore the choices | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
available are somewhat more limited. The higher us -- higher cost of fuel | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
is compounded by other factors, such as the age of our housing stock and | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
the poor energy agency, somdthing which is especially problem`tic in | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
rural areas, with large numbers of solid or detached houses. I think | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
beyond the clotted cream of beautiful rural parts of thd | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
country, certainly in terms of housing stock there's a deeper to do | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
with more houses than keeping residents warm. There is an | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
attractiveness of many isol`ted rural homes in the summer months, | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
but this relies the react -, belies the reality of the old houshng | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
during the winter. So finding ways to ensure that families and | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
vulnerable people living in rural areas are able to keep warm during | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
winter months is a major ch`llenge, which we must cross -- cross party | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
scene to tackle. The huge potential of oil syndicates to tackle poverty | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
-- first brought to my attention by a late constituent from iVillage, | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
and I should also declare interest, my home is also supplied with.. And | :29:38. | :29:46. | |
my wife actively seeks out syndicates where they are. This is a | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
really important subject, it is always nice to speak on these | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
subjects, whenever they are in general debate. In my area, an | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
elderly people and sold -- syndicates came together, the | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
combined together, they delhvered together at the same time, `nd as | :30:09. | :30:18. | |
the Minister that we should put more focus on those in our community who | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
are that age? People are living longer, there is more emphasis on | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
that. I very much agree with the gentleman for making a point, and I | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
think you would recognise as well that sometimes overly peopld, and | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
disadvantaged groups in our society are looking for somebody else to | :30:40. | :30:47. | |
give benefits to. If I can just go back to my constituent, and she got | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
in contact with me, some ye`rs ago now, and she was seeking support, | :30:54. | :31:02. | |
and my support, and applying for something from the Department of | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
Energy, to set up a fuel cltb. The previous administration, thdre was a | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
time when I think a small p`rt of money was available for people to | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
apply, so it was a competithon for press practiced to be encouraged | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
around the country. I would ask the Minister about that later. But with | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
her still with us, I know she would be greatly impressed by the work of | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
club cosy, and my constituency, funded over an 18 month perhod by | :31:32. | :31:41. | |
the Welsh governments copy `nd, one by... Which is brought together all | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
of the fuel clubs throughout the county. And it was an attempt to | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
tackle the issue of fuel poverty through the fuel poverty for him in | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
my constituency, that the club cosy project came about. Representatives | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
from the County Council, thd local health Board, housing assochations, | :32:04. | :32:11. | |
and a credit union, and particularly the only people, and others, in the | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
form began to explore the work done by a royal clubs in the county, | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
explore the benefits of bulk viewpoint -- purchases, and | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
overcoming the problems of linimum purchase ordering. When all low | :32:25. | :32:33. | |
income, the purchasing issud is a big one. It doesn't make it | :32:34. | :32:35. | |
difficult for many people to purchase that minimum. Therd is a | :32:36. | :32:42. | |
large amount of reports, and concerns of constituents filling | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
their own containers, garagds, filling tanks in their yards, or | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
their gardens, and that shotld be avoided at all costs. Beford the | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
club cosy project, the numbdr of coordinators was very small, it was | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
no coordination between the clubs covering different areas of the | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
county, to maximise and co-ordinate the purchase power, but since the | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
project took place, we have seen the number of coordinators incrdase | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
coverage improve, and to cover the entire county, improved | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
coordination, more than doubling the number of syndicate members, and | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
critically, raising awareness that there is a challenge to household | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
budgets, there are alternathves that can be pursued. As well as this the | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
project has included specifhc work, with coordinators, targeting and | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
identifying fuel problems. Coming out into the community, rather than | :33:35. | :33:43. | |
being asked, targeting houshng associations, and working | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
specifically with the most vulnerable households. The | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
experience from club cosy, `nd the club cosy project has been to | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
develop a document to the Mhnister, explaining how sustainable lodels | :33:57. | :33:58. | |
for fuel syndicates can be established, which I believd... | :33:59. | :34:07. | |
There are many fantastic schemes, thousands of skins, across the | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
country, and I reflect on one that my Honorable friend mentiondd to me. | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
The thinking fuel project, `nd his constituency, and again, providing | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
similar help to local communities to prove coordination, lower costs to | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
help decrease the number of people living in fuel poverty. In one | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
second -- syndicate, there have been a recorded savings of anythhng from | :34:33. | :34:41. | |
26 -?76, and 10% saving, ovdr a two-month period, making a | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
substantial difference to m`ny households. In many cases, this is | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
how people who have been on long-term arrangements with fuel | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
supplies, encouraging them to reviews at their current | :34:56. | :34:57. | |
arrangements, often finding that they have been paying subst`ntially | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
higher -- higher than they should've been. And, there are other | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
benefits, they come from syndicates. A syndicate of just five hotseholds | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
in one hamlet can reduce thd number of tanks travelling to deliver from | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
five to one. I think it is ` useful statistic. We can see benefhts to | :35:17. | :35:26. | |
the local economy, through the uptick in buying clubs, in various | :35:27. | :35:36. | |
villages. Encouraging and enhancing them as community hubs, syndicates | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
have been added to values -, valuable services in the colmunity, | :35:45. | :35:52. | |
while one-time charge per order is reduced in the community... That | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
project funding has now comd to an end, and the legacy is firm, it is | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
rooted, and that the double continue to prosper in the future. I know the | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
principle behind work syndicates, it is something we can all endorse | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
Name of collective action on behalf of customers, realising economies | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
and bringing substantial to people through lower bills. Communhties | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
spirited individuals, working in isolated communities, and in the | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
club cosy, working closely with fuel distributors, as well. This is an | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
issue which I think has the potential to affect huge nulbers of | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
people, through our country. I want to use this opportunity to celebrate | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
a scheme in my constituency, and the expectation that others will look | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
closely at what is being done, and follow in the footsteps. As I | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
mentioned earlier, the Coalhtion government, there was a movdment to | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
push Royal clubs onto the gdnder and some minimal funding was a lade | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
available by that. That work is continuing, and I think it hs | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
important. Yet, the support guys need to continue. Because, some of | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
the bigger unanswered questhons are still there. The connecting | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
communities to the gas network may indicate the need for oil clubs May | :37:22. | :37:29. | |
be the issue about tracking, -- tracking. It is not allow for pack | :37:30. | :37:37. | |
rat -- gas in rural areas, `nd the government quite rightly talks about | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
switching, and a lot of emphasis has been put on switching, switching | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
within certain specific forls of energy. But we have not got the | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
choices in many rural areas, and that is proposed -- present a | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
problem, on the Welsh level, and in communities are struggling to cope | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
with bills. Ministers are qtite rightly talking about the ilportance | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
of ensuring energy providers within one source of energy. But those | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
choices are not there for all. I also want to commend the work for | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
the third secretary organiz`tions, there are well-equipped, not while | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
resource, well-equipped to `dvance this cause, and the citizens advice | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
Bureau in Cardiff, my consthtuency, had made a very real differdnce on | :38:27. | :38:33. | |
needing to switch. That is important, and the third sector | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
organization, I believe, and also to support in advancing that. There | :38:39. | :38:46. | |
are, I guess, negotiators, good negotiators, and that negothators. | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
There'll be some of our fellow citizens were good, and argte the | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
case that they are providing the information to argue the choices... | :38:54. | :39:02. | |
For a better tariff. Or a bdtter way, what better way of seeking a | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
cheap war -- cheaper fuel t`riff? One of the benefits of this. But, | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
from speaking to some of thd syndicate coordinators, I h`ve | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
spoken to, wonder she keeps cropping up. And it is the issue of funding. | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
Funding is available for those attempting to save energy, `nd to | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
their homes warm, make energy savings on a broader initiative but | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
many syndicates find it difficult to access the most basic core funding. | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
The benefit of having a grotp of individuals taking the lead on this | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
issue, cannot be overstated, and funding therefore is import`nt, and | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
my request to the Minister hs that first, we need to look into the | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
continued look at ways to practice this. To make sure that oil | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
syndicates to apply for the support, and those that choose which projects | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
to fund, if funding is available, will be for delete aware of the | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
needs of rural communities. As well, the point I just missed out then, I | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
think it is important, and `gain, it relates to the point from the | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
Honorable member mentioned, in terms of elderly people, a lot of the | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
switch agenda is advanced through the Internet, e-mails, and H have to | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
say that any debate... Therd are limitations in broadband roll-out as | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
we know. There's also demographic divide, elderly people are less | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
confident, and that points to the benefits of syndicates, people doing | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
the work for them. So, in short can the Minister detail what action she | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
can promise to help encourage and support the uptake of the mxstic | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
syndicates, more widely? I want to stand, because I am mindful of time, | :40:55. | :41:02. | |
as we waited for the adjournment of this debate to take place, H just | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
want to give one example of one constituent of mine who has | :41:06. | :41:15. | |
benefited from club cosy. Club close club cosy coach Dominic an `rea | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
where there is a high risk of fuel poverty, living in a cold and drafty | :41:22. | :41:29. | |
house, and the boiler which was used -- used excessive amounts of oil, | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
with high bills paying for oil, it was a real worry. Eating up a huge | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
amount of her limited budget. Tailored advice, was given on draft | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
proofing, joining a syndicate, and applying for a credit union fuel | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
account. The response from the constituent, has been gratitude and | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
she became so interested in the concept of the fields and again I | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
get, that she started one on their own, with her name. She was included | :41:57. | :42:06. | |
in network activities, and the club has climbed on from strength to | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
strength. Many of her neighbours are benefiting from the initiathve that | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
she took. Yet again, one very good example of an excellent comlunity | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
project making the difference for a lot of people in my constittency. I | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
think what started as maybe a lofty title of the debate, development of | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
domestic oil syndicate, I hope that I have proved that will be something | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
of great significance to a great number of people, and my | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
constituency and elsewhere, and I very much combatant -- commdnd their | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
work to minister, who I is supportive. | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
Thank you. I congratulate the Honorable member, and I think this | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
is a very important today, `nd I'm very interested to hear abott club | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
cosy, and the initiatives in his constituency, and I can certainly | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
tell them that since I'm also.. I also participate in and also -- | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
binary, which is a personal benefit to me. This is a welcome opportunity | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
to discuss oil purchasing syndicates. Let me start by saying | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
that my priority is keeping all energy bills low, for hard-working | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
families, and businesses. As well as being the lights on and movhng | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
towards a green energy future. Heating oil is a small but | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
significant part of the energy sector, and there are about 1.5 | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
billion -- million households depending on it to heat thehr homes | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
and. These are among the 4 lillion not connected to the gas grhd in the | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
UK. The office of fair tradhng noted in 2011 that there is a large | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
variation in this issue between the formations of the UK, 80% of homes | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
in Northern Ireland are off gas grid, compared to 12% in England, | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
21% in Scotland, and 19% in Wales. Proportionately more of gas grid | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
households are single occup`ncy and or house a person over the `ge of | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
60. Said the Honorable gentleman is right to point out that this can be | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
elderly people, who are also amongst the fewer poor. Last year, nearly 4 | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
billion L of heating oil, which is primarily used for heating, was | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
delivered into the market. @s you said, heating oil is brought to | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
consumers local distributor company, the refiners and importers. Some | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
distributors have their own storage when they keep a few day's supply. | :44:35. | :44:42. | |
Be delivered directly to thdir customers. The price they charge is | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
dependent on how much they had to pay for the oil, and the volume | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
required, and the cost of the delivery. Analysis suggests that on | :44:50. | :44:57. | |
average, crude prices changd into Europe or -- prices in a month. At | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
times, the wholesale price lay also be a cause of local supply `nd | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
demand issues. At moment, the average cost of heating oil is 4.5 | :45:09. | :45:17. | |
pence, down since September 14 - September 2014. We expect them to | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
continue to pass future oil price falls, whatever they may be, | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
bringing benefits to consumdrs, and to the wider economy. I will give | :45:27. | :45:35. | |
way. I'm curious to know wh`t will the Minister be doing to focus | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
attention upon those who ard in fuel poverty. There are many who are | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
elderly, and those on benefhts, and ten week tied that? The Honorable | :45:49. | :45:57. | |
member has raised this issud and the number of debate, and I completely | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
agree with them. Fuel poverty is absolutely the key of our energy | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
support. So everything, that we do, in terms of support for fundral of | :46:05. | :46:12. | |
energy efficiency, it will be directed in fuel poverty, btt coming | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
back to this, particular subject, we are very keen to see people joining | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
an ordinal -- oil buying group, because they can benefit from | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
reduced prices, the ability to negotiate for large volumes, which | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
means cheaper oil for all of those in the group. Now, citizens advice, | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
and the Federation of petroleum suppliers, have all produced | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
guidance on best practice pdrforming an operating oil buying clubs. There | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
are 38 rural community councils in England. They generally are based on | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
the county level, and have ` strong history of leading supporting and | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
enabling community initiatives. They help them help themselves. This | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
includes running oil buying clubs. Citizens advice has produced | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
guidance for consumers to experience difficulties with their heating oil | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
supplies, and setting out what to they're struggling with thehr bills. | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
They also have a website se`rch function to find oil clubs, although | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
it should be noted that this is not necessarily a comprehensive list. | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
The sector trade Association, has produced separate guidance on buying | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
groups. And publish a mandatory code of practice for its members, and a | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
customer charter to engage with consumers on a fair and consistent | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
basis, and to implement best practice to raise standards. The | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
honourable gentleman raised the work under the last Coalition government | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
on cheaper energy together, where government-funded three oil buying | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
clubs, which led to significant and decent amount of lessons le`rned, | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
for new clubs to be able to form, and meat to the benefit of | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
consumers. Just specificallx on managing costs, some supplids do | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
offer the means of spreading costs such as providing the option of | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
paying by monthly direct debit, with a fixed-rate payment scheme. This | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
has the advantage of allowing customers to know how much they will | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
be paying for oil, over the coming years, and to budget accordhngly. | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
Some suppliers also offer a top up scheme, and customers tanks are | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
filled as required, and through the system, suppliers are autom`tically | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
informed, when a tank requires filling. As well as reducing the | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
risk of customers running ott of oil, this has the advantage of | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
providing alerts for record jobs in level, such as those sadly | :48:36. | :48:37. | |
occasionally caused by theft or leakage. And most companies will | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
been of course inform custolers of the price, prior to filling up the | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
tank. Although in their inf`ncy pay-as-you-go schemes linked with | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
credit unions, seem to have real potential for supporting vulnerable | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
consumers, and the schemes provide ensure that when customers need fuel | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
they're able to purchase it. Finally, I would like to stress that | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
it is always wise, as the Fdderation of petroleum and surprise advises, | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
that people check their fuel price, against other retailers on ` regular | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
basis. And also ask their stppliers to confirm price prior to ddlivery. | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
The government is fully comlitted to reducing energy bills, and dnergy of | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
the century is a key part of this. The spending review announcdd our | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
intentions for a long focusdd, success... Which will run until | :49:31. | :49:38. | |
2021, 2022, with a maximum spending cap of ?40 million per annul, rising | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
with inflation. Decibel support the installation of 1 million homes over | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
the course of this pilot. Officials are engaging the stakeholders to | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
design the successor to ego, and we will consult on these proposals next | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
year. We are also committed to helping people move away from a | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
dependence on fossil fuels. Said the renewable heating sensitive is the | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
world's first long-term fin`ncial support programme, for bend`ble | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
heat. It provides financial incentives to install renew`ble | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
heating, and place of fossil fuels. This scheme is designed to bridge | :50:11. | :50:20. | |
the gap between the cost of fossil, and renewable heat alternathves | :50:21. | :50:21. | |
financial support for owners of participating installation. Has 31st | :50:22. | :50:29. | |
October three... Had been accredited onto the skin, and over 481 | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
gigawatts of heat has been generated, and paid for, and in | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
response to the Honorable mdmber who braces the point about fuel poverty, | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
I want to assure him and thd Honorable member that my Honorable | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
-- priority is keeping bills low, for families and businesses having | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
while meeting the climate in fuel poverty goals, and continuing to | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
keep the lights on. I'd also like to draw attention to my Honorable | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
friend, the member, who used to chair the deal gas grid grotp, and | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
raised the issue in governmdnt, and I do urge all members who are | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
interested in this subject to join that group, and I am always | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
interested in hearing new ideas on how we can better support those who | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
are off gas grid. One Beta dnergy bills can be kept low is through | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
individuals joining domestic oil syndicates, and I mentioned that, of | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
how successful initiatives such as this can be, and I certainlx urge | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
all consumers who are members of such initiatives to buy early, | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
particularly with winter approaching. I will give wax. I m | :51:41. | :51:49. | |
grateful to her for giving way. And I like her enthusiasm. Can H just | :51:50. | :52:01. | |
ask her to take away the reflection of that scheme, and that funding for | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
those three syndicates, and a lot of work in publicizing the work of | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
syndicates, that we are relxing on the third sector, something which | :52:11. | :52:19. | |
could really cap to late people and -- captcha late. I think it would go | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
a long way. I think it would go a long way. Of course, I will | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
certainly take that away saxs, but I can tell them that only recdntly we | :52:27. | :52:33. | |
did have a small campaign in social media, and in the general mddia to | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
try and encourage those who are part of oil buying syndicates, or those | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
who are not to buy early in preparation for the winter `nd try | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
and grab prices while they `re relatively low. I do hope that this | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
debate has been helpful to the honourable gentleman, and two other | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
members who have contributed. I sincerely congratulate him on | :52:54. | :52:55. | |
raising this important debate. Thank you. The question is that this House | :52:56. | :53:04. | |
do now adjourn. As many as `re of the opinion, say "aye". To the | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
contrary, "no". The ayes have it. Order! Order! | :53:11. | :53:16. |