20/01/2016 House of Commons


20/01/2016

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seen shows that the standards have been met. As part of the audit, we

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will focus on that element `nd see what that information tells us.

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Order. Presentation of Bill. Mr Christopher Chope.

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House of Commons members fund bill. Second reading. What day? Friday the

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22nd of January. We come now to the ten Minute Rule Motion. Mr Owen

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Thompson. Thank you Mr Speaker. I beg to move that leave be ghven to

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bring in a bill to make provision on the controls of transportathon of

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nuclear weapons. I would like to take this opportunity to call on the

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government to immediately clarify what safety measures they'vd put in

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place to ultimately put a stop to convoys travelling through towns and

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cities. It would be my hope that through awareness in this house of

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these convoys, it would strdngthen calls across the country to rid us

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of nuclear weapons once and for all. On several occasions since ly

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election last May, nuclear convoys have passed through my constituency.

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Along easy routes, these convoys passed with no regard to thd danger

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it poses to the people in mx constituency. The people were

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horrified and understandablx so It is a semirural constituency

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immediately south of Edinburgh, one of the largest towns has barracks,

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with primary schools in close proximity. You can imagine the

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scene. It is lunchtime on a bright May afternoon, and children from

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Maurice B primary schools are playing and enjoying their lunch.

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Just over the fence set half a dozen weapons of mass destruction. Since

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then there have been countldss reported incidents where convoys

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have continued to travel across the UK, regardless of severe we`ther

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warnings, with the most recdnt incident last weekend in stdrling.

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With a number of areas of the country suffering from flooding and

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snow, emergency services ard pushed. Resources are pushed to bre`king

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point, but the convoys make their trek up and down the countrx.

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Following the public outcry on the 22nd of May, I wrote to the

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secretary of defence asking a number of questions on the safety,

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including what assessment w`s made of the proposed route. The `nswer

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provided to me, I had to sax, was woefully inadequate. The response

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from the minister claimed an unbroken safety record for 40 years.

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The response I received could have The response I received could have

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been written by Frank dripphng from the police squad, nothing to say

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here, move along! In actual fact, there have been more than 70

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individual safety incidents involving convoys recorded by the

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Ministry of Defence. These figures, provided to me by an organisation

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that monitors the movement of these convoys, figures provided to them by

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the Ministry of Defence. Al`rmingly, the movement of convoys has changed,

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in 2005 MOD rules restricting travel by night were lifted. Moving convoys

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by night increases the risk of accidents and collisions, and makes

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security more difficult. Thd Royal Society for prevent -- adding

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pressure to cruise and safety equipment, where families sleep in

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their beds. At a time in thhs house, Mr Speaker, where we daily `ttend to

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see the UK threat remains at severe, these convoys are dangerous, highly

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visible, and not only a risk to the level of accidents, but are a moving

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target for terrorists. Some claim it would be being alarmist but it has

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to be said that such an att`ck has the potential to lead to thd damage

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or destruction of a nuclear weapons within the UK. The consequences of

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such an incident are likely to be considerable loss of life, severe

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disruption to the British pdople's way of life, and the UK's ability to

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function effectively as a sovereign state. These are not my words, Mr

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Speaker, but words from the Ministry of Defence. In response to ` Freedom

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of information request in 2005. Just think about that. Considerable loss

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of life. And, in ability to function as a sovereign state. If yot still

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think it is a good idea to have these convoys moving across the

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country with that as a potential consequence, feel free to do so I,

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certainly, don't. Given the enormity of these words, we must ask

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ourselves, our nuclear convoys more of a risk to the British people and

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their way of lives than terrorism? If it is the case, we have ` moral,

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ethical and valid compelling mandate to remove that risk from our towns,

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cities and nations. We only have to look at the effect of social media

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to understand how powerful the risk is. When convoys travel through

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Midlothian, I was alerted through Facebook and Twitter. Ordin`ry

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members of the public pointhng out the nuclear materials passing by

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their front doors. It is delusional to think a convoy of 20 large

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vehicles could ever go unnoticed in this day and age. The convoxs are

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already well documented and if members of the public are able to do

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so it seems logical to assule others with darker motivations can also do

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so. I'm sure we are too far aware of the appalling damage and loss of

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life a terrorist attack can result in. But running convoys of nuclear

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weapons through the country does nothing to deter that. If an

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incident of that kind should occur, or if there was a fire, or lajor

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explosion, members should bd aware that local authorities may not be

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fully prepared to deal with the immediate aftermath. Police are

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informed of an approaching convoy but there is no obligation for any

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other service, including fire and rescue. In this scenario, something

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has happened. You have leth`l plutonium billowing around xour

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constituency. Local people `t the mercy, I'm sure they are highly

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skilled and have considerable expertise, but they are still 3 0

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miles from my constituency. At worst, if there was a fire or major

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explosion, my constituency `nd neighbouring areas would be

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flattened. Mr Speaker, you light be aware that this is not the first

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time the issue has been raised in the house. My honourable frhend for

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Hamilton West raised these points for debate back in July. But it is

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not just an issue raised by this MP. I would like to thank the honourable

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member for South Down for contacting me with her support for this.

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With the 21 counties in Scotland these passed through, in addition

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they also passed over 13 authorities in Wales and 91 in England. This is

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not just an issue for Scotl`nd. As this House looks to the potdntial

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vote on overhauling or upgr`ding of the system through the

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refurbishments programme, the Government should also be clear how

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this will impact on the frepuency of convoys, replacing every single

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warhead and sending every shngle one down to Berkshire and back `gain.

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Madame Deputy Speaker, I can only imagine the scene, standing on a

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street corner, observing thd passing of the vehicles, some guardhng and

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some carrying nuclear weapons. You are not in North Korea. You're

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standing on the A702, Penictik. My last point before concluding is an

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issue of great importance. That is to praise the hard work of the men

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and women working on the submarines as part of the logistical operation.

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They do an incredible job and it cannot be forgotten that regardless

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of reviews on nuclear weapons, the men and women who work with them are

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doing a phenomenal job. While I believe the majority of the people

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of Scotland and indeed people in my own constituency in Midlothhan

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remain opposed to the UK Government policy of updating and upgr`ding the

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Trident system, I hope this debate can persuade other members that even

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if they agree with the pro Trident policy, they have to show concern

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and agree there are real risks involved with these nuclear convoys.

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The transport of nuclear we`pons should not be based on an argument

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of convenience at the expense of safety. The policy as it st`nds

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lacks transparency. It is counter-productive against

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protecting us from terrorist attacks and shows a blatant disregard and

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lack of judgment for our own citizens. Well my alternate hope

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would be for the Government to see sense and think again on thdir

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policy to renew Trident, at the very least we should add to honotrable

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member 's calls to reconsiddr this policy of driving nuclear transports

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near our schools, hospitals and front doors. The question is the

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honourable member have leavd to bring in the Bill. In my

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constituency, and in fact in the house in which I live in, wd are

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periodically given warning notices of what to do in the event of a

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nuclear incident. There has been I'll dine tablets which are given

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out -- iodine. That is in c`se of such an incident. But I think the

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difference, and I would see the difference between people in my

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constituency and his in Scotland, but that is not the case... It is a

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difference between the people there and those members who sit on the SNP

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benches, and that is that they have immature understanding -- a mature

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understanding, that actuallx the regulatory government structure is

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internationally overseen and is designed to keep people safd. In

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addition to the live nuclear reactors which are maintaindd within

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the submarines at Barrow furnace a few hundred yards from my house

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without incident or the kind of paranoid scaremongering which is

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being deliberately whipped tp either member the South and West coast of

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Cumbria has taken by rail in the manner in which he is trying to

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frighten schoolchildren and nursery children, and I really think he

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ought to know better, taken by rail nuclear material which has done

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absolutely... I mean, he must know, if he has done any kind of research,

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this idea that there is a stdden derailment and then suddenlx the

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whole of Scotland is filled by this cloud of plutonium and everxone puts

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on gas masks and guys, it is just complete fantasy, fantasy ddsigned

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not actually to achieve a greater level of safety for his

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constituents, but just to add fuel to the fire -- puts on gas lasks and

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As many as are of the opinion, say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . Feel

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to the fire of their absurd argument which is, Madame Deputy Spe`ker it

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is that we believe in nucle`r weapons -- puts on gas masks and

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dies. It adds fuel to the fhre. We think, in the SNP, nuclear weapons

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are up for it and should cole nowhere near Scotland. They can be

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50 or 100 miles down the ro`d and can keep all of us safe but we do

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not want any of them on our shores and, frankly, to hear the honourable

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member patting submarine melbers on the head, saying to those crews and

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those people who maintain them, we have the utmost respect, wh`t

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rubbish, what absolute rubbhsh, when rubbish, what absolute rubbhsh, when

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actually you would cause thousands and thousands of them to lose their

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jobs, never to return on Scottish soil. I would say, Madame Ddputy

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Speaker, above the hubbub of the Scottish members are trying to

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distract me, that this ten linute rule has nothing to do with safety

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but is all to do with prosecuting their absurd argument which actually

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is not supported by the people of Scotland. Every opinion poll, by the

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one done by CND, and I will give them that, they have CND with them,

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every opinion poll has made clear the Scottish people, like the rest

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of the United Kingdom, are hn favour of maintaining an independent

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nuclear deterrent while othdr countries have them. This Bhll will

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not get anywhere, Madame Deputy Speaker, so I do not see thd trouble

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that House with the division, given the important issue we have to get

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onto with the psychoactive substances. I just want to see what

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poppycock it is and that it really should be paid no regard. The

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question is the honourable lember have leave to bring in the Bill As

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many as are of the opinion, say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. I

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think the ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the Bill?

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Brendan O'Hara, ... The second reading. What thdy?

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Friday the 4th of March. Thd clerk will now proceed to read thd orders

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of the day. Psychoactive substances build, lords, as amended in the

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Public Bill Committee, to bd considered. -- Psychoactive

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Substances Bill. Lynne Brown To Move Clause One. Thank You So Much,

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Madame Deputy Speaker. Both Of These Clauses Deal With The Key Issue Of

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Drugs, Education And Awarendss. This bill contains provisions to disrupt

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the supply of psychoactive substances, but these provisions

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will not be affected without action to reduce demand. What we nded is a

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coherent and comprehensive dducation and awareness strategy to go

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which places the duty on thd which places the duty on thd

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Secretary of State to updatd Parliament on the progress lade by

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the Government in improving on education and awareness of new

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psychoactive substances. Thd Bill requires the Secretary of State to

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bring a progress review before Parliament and I remember prescribes

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this review should contain information about education and

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awareness as well -- and I've member. I will give way. Th`nk you,

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Madame Deputy Speaker. And thank you for giving way. I visited a high

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school in my constituency, ly old school, and saw their first,hand the

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kind of educational work behng done kind of educational work behng done

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on so-called legal highs. Would she agree with me that is precisely the

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kind of approach we need? I thank my honourable friend for making that

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point and indeed they have ` really impressive education progralme I

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will come to later in my contribution. Clause one amdnds the

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education act to make PF eg include education act to make PF eg include

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a focus on drugs and new psychoactive substances. It should

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be foundation subject in anx national curriculum. The Government

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education strategy on drugs contains really warm words about providing

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good quality education and `dvice so young people and their parents are

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provided with "Credible information to actively resist substancd

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misuse". But these warm words are not and were not acted upon. The

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Coalition Government reversdd Labour's plans to make this a

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statutory requirement. Desphte that being recommended in the review

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carried out by Sir Alistair MacDonald, they closed the drugs

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education Forum, a source of expertise on drugs education in

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England, which disseminated information to teachers across the

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country. The forum was closdd as part of a drastic cut in drtgs

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education spending. According to the Department of Health, drugs

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education spending reduced from ?3.9 million in 2009 and 2010 to around

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give way... I am very grateful to my give way... I am very grateful to my

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honourable friend and of cotrse you make the very important point about

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the need for PHSE to includd these measures. Given the five-ye`r

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forward view set out by Stevens for the National Health Service

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predicates ?5 billion worth of savings coming from preventhon,

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isn't this exactly the kind of prevention we should be proloting in

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our schools? My honourable friend is absolutely right. If I camera Abdul

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Hassib Seddiqi statistics properly, the Government estimated to do the

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kind of comprehensive drugs education would cost approxhmately

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?500 per pupil in England and Wales -- if I can remember my statistics

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properly. If you consider ndarly ?1 million would be spent on a person

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misusing substances over thd course of their lifetime, an average cost

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of course, we can see it cotld be cost effective to provide ddcent

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comprehensive drugs education and stop us from spending at thd other

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end, which is on people who are misusing and abusing substances

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Statistics provided by the drug and alcohol charity demonstrate this was

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schools no teacher drugs edtcation schools no teacher drugs edtcation

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for one I've more or less pdr year. -- for one hour or unless a year.

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69% of all pupils say they cannot remember having a drugs education

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lesson in the past year. Thd former chief executive of the charhty has

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told a newspaper we are probably in the worst situation for dec`des for

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drugs education and where there is drugs education the quality is

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questioned. Ofsted found 40$ of PHSE teaching was not good and ndeded to

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improve. In 2013, a survey of teachers by the PHSE Associ`tion

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reported 81% of responders would like more classroom resourcds for

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drugs and alcohol education. I will give way. I am very grateful. Can my

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honourable friend give an example of any anti-drug use education

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programme here or anywhere dlse in the world in this century or the

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last century which resulted in a reduction in drug use? Have to say

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to my honourable friend I al going to come to it later in my speech

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when I speak about Wales, and although there has not yet been a

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proper examination of findings from the drugs programme Wales h`s put

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into action, they does in the initial findings look as if it has

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had some impact so if my honourable friend will allow, I will continue

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with my... Thank you. The evidence, including frol the

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government's and inspectors suggests that the approach to PSA G hs not

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working. The failure has occurred at a time when the growth of the

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psychoactive substances indtstry has dramatically altered the drtg

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situation in our country -- PSHE. Moreover, parents want thesd

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changes, and NUT survey say that 88% of parents want PSHE to be

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compulsory. 98% of parents were happy for their children to attend

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PSHE lesson. There is still the issue of the

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purchasing of legal highs online. Does the honourable lady fedl that

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there is much to do in relation to that? I do agree with the honourable

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gentleman that there needs to be much that we can do in order to

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prevent the supply and demand of these substances. This set of

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amendments is currently dealing with demand. I feel that unless we get

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our message out, that these so-called legal highs are ndither

:22:57.:23:01.

legal or safe. Then the dem`nd on the Internet will become evdn

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greater. So we do need to gdt out the core message that the government

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is doing through this bill, these drugs are not legal, they are not

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safe, and actually, the dem`nd on the Internet needs to be curbed as

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well. That is why we have to make sure that we have proper edtcation

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and information out there. Ladam Deputy Speaker, we have a shtuation

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where parents, teachers and the government 's own inspectors think

:23:30.:23:33.

that we should have more and better drug education. But it appe`rs the

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government does not agree. Hn Wales, a Labour government shows us how

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successful an alternative approach can be. ?18 million investmdnt in

:23:41.:23:46.

the all Wales School liaison programme has made substancd misuse

:23:47.:23:54.

a core subject in 98% of Welsh primary and secondary schools - a

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?2 million. Almost all schools receive accurate and credible

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information about the potential harm of drugs rather than having to rely

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on friends, myths, the Internet and guesswork. The school progr`mme is

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complemented by the Welsh elerging drugs and novel substance project.

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That is a new psychoactive substances information and harm

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reduction programme, as well as measures to educate parents. These

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are all part of a ?50 million investment in reducing drugs harms.

:24:29.:24:31.

There are signs that the Welsh approach is working. Drug ddaths in

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Wales are down 30% since 2000. In contrast, drug-related deaths have

:24:40.:24:44.

been creeping up in England. There was a 17% increase in the l`st year.

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The Office of National Stathstics states that they are now at the

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highest level since records began in 1993. Too much of the drugs

:24:55.:25:01.

education in our schools is focused on providing information. Evidence

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suggests that to get drugs dducation right, it has to be taught `longside

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a focus on life skills, which empowers young people to resist peer

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pressure and make informed decisions. I will give her `

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chance... It is good to hear from her again. I agree with an `wful lot

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of what she is saying. Nobody is suggesting that it is perfect but we

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have Mental UK, the Rise Above campaign, the Frank campaign. Of

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course there is a role for the state, and education and he`lth

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There is a role for parents, I am a parent of two young children and I

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educate them as best as I c`n with the information I have about the

:25:53.:25:55.

danger of psychoactive substances, would you agree this is a kdy part?

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I agree with the honourable gentleman but I've not been lucky to

:26:00.:26:04.

be a parent myself. But I know that looking at my nieces, their parents,

:26:05.:26:08.

what their parents tell thel, and the information parents havd is

:26:09.:26:11.

crucial in making the right decisions. Shall the ministdr give

:26:12.:26:19.

way? I will. I'm very grateful for you giving way on that point, I want

:26:20.:26:23.

to make the point that therd are a lot of very responsible pardnts out

:26:24.:26:26.

there who will of course talk to their children about legal highs and

:26:27.:26:30.

building resilience and self-confidence so children make the

:26:31.:26:33.

right decision in their livds. But we have to accept that unfortunately

:26:34.:26:37.

there are many young childrdn who don't have the advantages would like

:26:38.:26:42.

them to have and it is important that we all recognise education

:26:43.:26:45.

within the school setting is another way of getting important messages

:26:46.:26:51.

across. My honourable friend is right, these life skills can only be

:26:52.:26:55.

taught by helping children think about the challenges and dangers

:26:56.:26:59.

which they face and underst`nd that bullying is often a tool of the drug

:27:00.:27:04.

pusher and a consequence of taking drugs from pushers is that they

:27:05.:27:10.

often become themselves in debt and open to exploitation. When they

:27:11.:27:17.

introduce into a classroom, in our schools, they can result in

:27:18.:27:20.

conversations between young people, and a real learning process taking

:27:21.:27:28.

place, rather than the hit `nd miss that can take place. Outsidd the

:27:29.:27:34.

school. We need information and context to deliver quality

:27:35.:27:41.

education, that is why we nded the kind of education that can be

:27:42.:27:47.

provided by PSHE, not solelx as is happening so often in the science

:27:48.:27:52.

lessons in our classrooms. Unfortunately, the government has

:27:53.:27:56.

often set its opposition into making PSA -- PSHE a lesson. Research by

:27:57.:28:10.

the Royal Society of Public health found that a quarter of young people

:28:11.:28:15.

between 16 and 24 believe that so-called legal highs were safer

:28:16.:28:22.

than illegal drugs. As we all know, this is a dangerous misunderstanding

:28:23.:28:26.

because some of the new psychoactive substances have been classified as

:28:27.:28:31.

class a drugs. It is little wonder that young people and older people,

:28:32.:28:36.

in fact, are confused when they are bombarded by the marketing tricks

:28:37.:28:41.

from drug pushers who tell ts that they are safe and legal

:28:42.:28:46.

alternatives. Given the ingrained and damaging myths surroundhng

:28:47.:28:50.

psychoactive substances, I find it astonishing that, as of the 2nd of

:28:51.:28:57.

June, ?180,556 has been spent over three years on education programmes

:28:58.:29:03.

on these drugs. New psychoactive substances, education awareness is

:29:04.:29:08.

not just about schools, that is why I've tabled amendment for, that

:29:09.:29:12.

would put a statutory duty on the Home Secretary to include an update

:29:13.:29:19.

on progress made in improving the psychoactive substances education

:29:20.:29:21.

and awareness in her statutory review. I think this amendmdnt would

:29:22.:29:27.

focus minds at the Home Offhce and compelled them to put into place the

:29:28.:29:30.

most effective and comprehensive awareness campaign possible. The

:29:31.:29:39.

Welsh assembly found that 57% of new psychoactive substances users used

:29:40.:29:42.

the media as their main source of information about psychoacthve

:29:43.:29:49.

substances. Therefore, publhc relations and advertising c`mpaigns

:29:50.:29:52.

have a genuine role, a key role to play. This is particularly true

:29:53.:29:57.

among adults groups where the government cannot act as a direct

:29:58.:30:01.

provider of education as thdy do in school. Governments and public

:30:02.:30:07.

awareness campaigns are limhted really, to the Frank websitd which

:30:08.:30:11.

has almost no social media presence. Regrettably. In the absence of any

:30:12.:30:19.

government action, the foundation has been forced to run camp`igns

:30:20.:30:24.

through fundraising and corporate donations in kind, I would like to

:30:25.:30:28.

praise their work again. I'l sure they would acknowledge thesd

:30:29.:30:32.

campaigns should be nationwhde and comprehensive. They simply cannot

:30:33.:30:36.

afford to do it themselves. The job they are doing is the job that the

:30:37.:30:37.

government should be doing. May I . Isn't it strange that we have the

:30:38.:30:58.

information coming from Frank that it is not linked, the great work

:30:59.:31:04.

that can be pushed through social media about the awareness of this,

:31:05.:31:09.

there is not this collaboration Surely we need the government to

:31:10.:31:13.

take lead on this collaboration I say give the gentleman a job in the

:31:14.:31:17.

Home Office, I think we would become more effective if we put into

:31:18.:31:22.

practice what he has suggested. During the committee, the Mhnister

:31:23.:31:27.

said that he agreed, I think I don't want to put words into his louth,

:31:28.:31:33.

that Frank was inadequate. He said "I put my hands up, talk to Frank is

:31:34.:31:37.

not perfect. We will work whth everybody to ensure that talk to

:31:38.:31:42.

Frank improves". The weight is feeding information is perh`ps not

:31:43.:31:48.

as direct as possible. Let's sort that now -- the way it is. Let me

:31:49.:31:52.

say to the honourable Minister, I would encourage him to respond to

:31:53.:31:56.

the point that his honourable friend has made, and give us an

:31:57.:32:00.

understanding of the progress he has made in sorting it. She may not be

:32:01.:32:12.

aware but a prominent anti-drugs campaign in my constituency, Mary

:32:13.:32:15.

Brett, has always had a lot of problems with the Frank website

:32:16.:32:20.

because of the emphasis on hot reduction. The website fails to

:32:21.:32:25.

really point out the dangers in a direct way in which youngstdrs can

:32:26.:32:30.

understand. I would support her in hoping that the Minister wotld again

:32:31.:32:34.

look at this. There are manx very good campaigners with honestly held

:32:35.:32:39.

views that think that Frank is not good enough. I thank the honourable

:32:40.:32:44.

lady for making that point. I looked at Frank. I know very littld about

:32:45.:32:48.

drugs, in truth, aside from what I have learnt in the last few months.

:32:49.:32:54.

I did not know what poppers were in the beginning of my brief, H thought

:32:55.:32:57.

they were little things with string that you have that parties. When I

:32:58.:33:02.

looked at the Frank website, it did not enlighten me that much. I needed

:33:03.:33:07.

something more basic that would help me with my education. I agrde with

:33:08.:33:11.

the honourable lady and the point she has made. I urge the Minister to

:33:12.:33:18.

pledge to report to Parliamdnt the progress made in delivering the

:33:19.:33:22.

government's education strategy It is not a big ask and if the

:33:23.:33:26.

government are serious about drug education, I believe the honourable

:33:27.:33:29.

gentleman is, it is something that ought to be committed to rigorously

:33:30.:33:34.

monitoring, at the very least. The minister claimed in his letter to

:33:35.:33:38.

the Bill committee that the statutory review should focts on the

:33:39.:33:43.

operation of legislation. I agree but the operation of this

:33:44.:33:46.

legislation will not happen in a vacuum. The Minister has repeatedly

:33:47.:33:52.

said it must become fermentdd by a communication and awareness strategy

:33:53.:33:57.

that seems appropriate, to le, that the operation of this legislation

:33:58.:34:01.

would include a substances section on education and awareness just to

:34:02.:34:04.

make sure that we are getting the message is out there and reducing

:34:05.:34:08.

demand. I'm sure that the Mhnister will agree with me that we should be

:34:09.:34:15.

keen to review and evaluate the impact this legislation would have,

:34:16.:34:18.

I'm pleased there is provishon in this bill that would ensure this

:34:19.:34:22.

happens. However, can he provide assurances that in the regular and

:34:23.:34:28.

annual collection of statistics about the arrests, prosecuthon,

:34:29.:34:32.

sentences, offender managemdnt and treatment, information colldcted

:34:33.:34:35.

about substances covered by this legislation would not be subsumed

:34:36.:34:39.

with the similar data collected for the drugs controlled under the

:34:40.:34:43.

misuse of drugs act. And, in a similar way, surveys carried out by

:34:44.:34:48.

the government into crime and public health will separate considdration

:34:49.:34:51.

of information about the misuse of drugs act, controlled drugs and the

:34:52.:34:56.

psychoactive substance. I r`ise this because it would be all too easy to

:34:57.:35:00.

simply obscure the impact that this legislation would have if the

:35:01.:35:04.

information is collapsed into the existing systems for collecting data

:35:05.:35:08.

about actions taken on drugs controlled under the misuse of drugs

:35:09.:35:13.

act. I would like to ask thd Minister to accept a new cl`use one.

:35:14.:35:18.

A girl can dream! The government's approach to PSHE is not working We

:35:19.:35:23.

cannot stand by and let that happen when you psychoactive subst`nces are

:35:24.:35:26.

bringing new dangers into otr community. -- when new psychoactive

:35:27.:35:32.

substances will stop while H am on my feet I would like to spe`k to

:35:33.:35:38.

amendment five. If passed, ht would add poppers to the list of banned

:35:39.:35:42.

psychoactive substances. Thdy would be treated like alcohol, and

:35:43.:35:50.

caffeine. We know them to bd psychoactive but do not feel they

:35:51.:35:54.

are judicious to ban. The rdason we support the bill is because we think

:35:55.:35:58.

that legislation is necessary to safeguard against the seriots harm

:35:59.:36:03.

is created by new psychoacthve substances. Our concern to safeguard

:36:04.:36:09.

against harm is the same re`son why we believe that poppers ought to be

:36:10.:36:14.

exempt from the ban on psychoactive substances. In our judgment, fewer

:36:15.:36:19.

harms are likely to occur if poppers are added to the exemption list

:36:20.:36:26.

In which she recognises the representations made to the fact of

:36:27.:36:35.

a beneficial and healthy relationship effect and the concern

:36:36.:36:39.

that a ban will have partictlarly on men who have sex with men. H was

:36:40.:36:43.

pleased to see the Home Secretary has chosen to refer this issue for

:36:44.:36:48.

further consideration by experts that I was a little perplexdd as to

:36:49.:36:52.

why this consideration was not being made with the a CMD, her own body of

:36:53.:36:59.

scientific experts on drugs but instead through the M8 are `

:37:00.:37:08.

instead. I know if the recommendation by then be f`vourable

:37:09.:37:13.

and agree with the recommendations about poppers, then they will be

:37:14.:37:25.

consulted. I am conscious that this is an intervention, not a speech.

:37:26.:37:34.

The Shadow minister will hopefully be pleased to know that the HMG will

:37:35.:37:43.

start the process. I am ple`sed to hear that and I am grateful to the

:37:44.:37:49.

Minister for the intervention. Why not? Whatever the process that the

:37:50.:37:56.

government is going to go through, it seems boring and crazy to them

:37:57.:38:03.

than the substances with a view to an banned them into what three

:38:04.:38:06.

months' time. the home affairs select comlittee in

:38:07.:38:14.

their report as I do to support amendment five? I do indeed agree

:38:15.:38:25.

with him. Despise the seemingly welcome movement, I am still moving

:38:26.:38:38.

to place poppers on the list. In short, we may do more harm by this

:38:39.:38:43.

action. Life after a review and further evidence it is provdn that

:38:44.:38:47.

poppers are harmful and that on balance they ban will be

:38:48.:38:52.

appropriate, we will willingly review and test the evidencd and if

:38:53.:38:55.

the case is proven, support the ban on the substances. I agree with her

:38:56.:39:02.

approach in this respect because surely that makes far more sense and

:39:03.:39:09.

leads to a situation wherebx the government's approach is gohng to

:39:10.:39:15.

create uncertainty and mixed messages not just in the gax

:39:16.:39:17.

community but in the population at large. My honourable friend is

:39:18.:39:24.

absolutely right. Let's look at the context and evidence. Poppers have

:39:25.:39:28.

been used recreationally in Britain for well over 30 years. In `ll that

:39:29.:39:33.

time no government has sought to ban them. The word poppers is used to

:39:34.:39:38.

describe a group of chemical compounds some of which carry more

:39:39.:39:42.

potential harms than others. They are popular in some sections of the

:39:43.:39:48.

gay community. I am told thdy enhance sexual experience. Some

:39:49.:40:00.

compounds contained within them are relatively rare because of

:40:01.:40:09.

legislation. The most common compound is weaker and does not

:40:10.:40:13.

constitute or pose a signifhcant health risk. Poppers are not... They

:40:14.:40:24.

have been around a long timd but controlled by the Misuse of Drugs

:40:25.:40:29.

Act, not because they are h`rmless, but because they do not meet the

:40:30.:40:33.

high threshold of the act. Hf we are to bring in a blanket ban, this is a

:40:34.:40:42.

blanket ban, a psychoactive substance. Surely the Minister s

:40:43.:40:46.

response to the response suggesting he will do the research... Surely we

:40:47.:40:56.

are doing this the right wax round. Don't agree we should do thhs the

:40:57.:41:02.

other way around. I will explain as I go along. My feeling is that this

:41:03.:41:06.

bill should be about harms. Poppers have not been thought to be

:41:07.:41:11.

controlled by any government. They have been around for decades. In

:41:12.:41:16.

fact they were created in the late 19th century. I understand that some

:41:17.:41:20.

ministers in this House at the dispatch box have used them to

:41:21.:41:23.

simply keep going because they were prescribed that the time by their

:41:24.:41:30.

doctors. The reality is if we ban them now, and then an banned them in

:41:31.:41:33.

four months' time, it will create confusion. What would be better

:41:34.:41:38.

would be to allow what has happened all along to continue and if it is

:41:39.:41:42.

found that the test of signhficant harm is found, then banned them

:41:43.:41:48.

Take them off the exempt list. We won't have any underground labs

:41:49.:41:54.

creating synthetic poppers `nd selling them in nightclubs. It won't

:41:55.:41:58.

be the kind of harm that I dnvisage and fear would happen if we put

:41:59.:42:03.

them... If we didn't put thdm on the exempt list today. I want to make

:42:04.:42:12.

the opposite point. The simple truth is if you ban something and then you

:42:13.:42:16.

take it back later you are bringing the law into disrepute. There was no

:42:17.:42:20.

one in this House who is fidrcer than me in terms of banning

:42:21.:42:23.

inappropriate substances but it seems to me this is the wrong way

:42:24.:42:34.

round. I absolutely agree whth the honourable gentleman. In giving

:42:35.:42:46.

evidence to the home affairs select committee, a doctor said as far as

:42:47.:42:51.

he could speak as a clinici`n, he doesn't think he could have seen

:42:52.:42:57.

anyone coming to the clinic who had harms connected with poppers.

:42:58.:43:04.

Another professor said he h`d not seen sufficient scientific dvidence

:43:05.:43:07.

of harm in the case of just poppers to justify recommendation under the

:43:08.:43:12.

Misuse of Drugs Act. And he was not aware of any increase in thd use of

:43:13.:43:21.

poppers and fall within the UK. To be fair-minded, must I also share

:43:22.:43:25.

concerns in relation to poppers not being on the list, the government

:43:26.:43:33.

does response that the doctor also went on to say there are associated

:43:34.:43:39.

harms. There are links with poppers and I damage and it is the sort of

:43:40.:43:45.

thing that is unpredictable. Genuinely if the evidence changes

:43:46.:43:49.

and if we can see that therd is significant harm, let's ban it. But

:43:50.:43:55.

for us, it is a bit like alcohol. Used wrong, excessively, it causes

:43:56.:44:01.

massive harm. As I understand it, the way poppers are genuinely use,

:44:02.:44:09.

generally used, by the majority of users, they do not create the kind

:44:10.:44:13.

of harms that would require us to be banning them and actually, to ban

:44:14.:44:20.

them with genuinely cause more harm than the harm themselves. I'd like

:44:21.:44:28.

to challenge the myth that by banning a drug you reduce its use.

:44:29.:44:34.

This is virtually never happened and in all most every case when a

:44:35.:44:38.

previously legal substance has been used, as happened with metal drill,

:44:39.:44:45.

its use increased 300% and ht is a myth to believe banning a drug will

:44:46.:44:50.

have that effect. What it is likely to do is replace a legal market with

:44:51.:44:53.

a criminal market which is infinitely more harmful. I `gree

:44:54.:44:58.

with the honourable gentlem`n that if we do not place poppers on the

:44:59.:45:03.

exempt list today, we are lhkely to replace a criminal market whth a

:45:04.:45:09.

regulated market and that, H believe, will be in the intdrests of

:45:10.:45:16.

absolutely no one. It is actually worse than that set out by ly

:45:17.:45:23.

honourable friend. What is likely to happen is that a gay man who might

:45:24.:45:30.

use poppers to enhance sexu`l pleasure, being made illegal he may

:45:31.:45:34.

be tempted to go to the lack market and use a class a or B drug which

:45:35.:45:39.

would increase the risk of unprotected sex and as a

:45:40.:45:46.

consequence, an increased rhsk of STDs. My honourable friend hs right.

:45:47.:45:57.

I agree with him. I apologise to intervene twice but I want to make

:45:58.:46:00.

sure we get the reference point for harm clear. I know very little about

:46:01.:46:06.

poppers, I spent this morning reading about them. They catse

:46:07.:46:14.

fainting, some blood damage. Paracetamol can cause damagd,

:46:15.:46:19.

aspirin can cause damage. Ldt's be clear about what damage means. These

:46:20.:46:24.

do not appear to be on the face of it harmful drugs. I agree whth the

:46:25.:46:29.

honourable gentleman in the House will be aware that the home affairs

:46:30.:46:34.

select committee concluded that poppers should be exempted from the

:46:35.:46:42.

ban. The chair of the home `ffairs select committee who is in his place

:46:43.:46:46.

for most of this debate, will inform the House of his views of the Home

:46:47.:46:50.

Secretary's response to the committee recommendation because I

:46:51.:46:55.

was listening to that with great interest. Poppers is not a new drug.

:46:56.:47:03.

They were first created in the 9th century. They are not a new chemical

:47:04.:47:06.

compound which has been synthetically produced to mhmic the

:47:07.:47:11.

effect of already banned substances. There is a good argument th`t

:47:12.:47:14.

poppers are not only relatively harmless but they are not the sort

:47:15.:47:19.

of new psychoactive substance that this bill is intending to ddal with.

:47:20.:47:23.

We feel a ban on poppers evdn for a short period will in fact bring

:47:24.:47:29.

about harms. The ban will t`ke the sale of poppers out of the

:47:30.:47:32.

regulatory regime and users may end up being pushed underground where

:47:33.:47:37.

unscrupulous unregulated sellers in it for the profit are more likely to

:47:38.:47:42.

provide harmful drug compounds and possibly drive users towards other

:47:43.:47:49.

harmful and harder drugs. If it is likely that the review will take six

:47:50.:47:56.

months or longer, it is for six months of confusion, potenthal

:47:57.:48:00.

prosecutions, there is a re`l danger that they will be under the counter

:48:01.:48:06.

sales of poppers which will not be subject to the same regulathons

:48:07.:48:10.

There is a danger of harm bding created even by a temporary ban on

:48:11.:48:15.

poppers. With the Minister not consider a temporary exempthon for

:48:16.:48:21.

poppers until the MH RA report back? I understand the government has told

:48:22.:48:26.

the National aids trust that the fears I have outlined is unfounded.

:48:27.:48:36.

The National aids trust havd been informed by the gay men's hdalth

:48:37.:48:41.

service in Ireland health sdrvice executive that poppers are still

:48:42.:48:48.

openly sold in Ireland's sex shops and soreness, effectively policing

:48:49.:48:50.

poppers on the exemption list. If this is the case, we would not

:48:51.:48:55.

expect to see any harms associated with pushing Popper use unddrground

:48:56.:49:00.

in Ireland because the poppdrs market is still in effect ott in the

:49:01.:49:06.

open. Cannot therefore be inferred that the situation in Ireland there

:49:07.:49:12.

will be no help harms from ` ban on poppers in the UK. I fear that

:49:13.:49:17.

including poppers in the band may undermine the bill and make it far

:49:18.:49:21.

more difficult to get across the vital message that psychoactive

:49:22.:49:25.

substances can be an very often are very dangerous. There is a risk of

:49:26.:49:34.

the bill, with the ban on poppers which is thought to be relatively

:49:35.:49:46.

harmless. It would be a dis`ster to undermine the important work done by

:49:47.:49:51.

the bill. Finally, given th`t poppers are widely used but

:49:52.:49:54.

relatively harmless, we fear enforcing the ban on poppers would

:49:55.:49:57.

be a waste of scarce police resources. Enforcing the bill will

:49:58.:50:04.

be difficult enough without disproportionate amount of police

:50:05.:50:07.

time spent on enforcing a b`n on a relatively harmless drug. If any

:50:08.:50:12.

future there is evidence produced to the contrary, should be removed from

:50:13.:50:27.

the exemption list. I would urge them to place poppers on thd exempt

:50:28.:50:32.

list until the H M R a has considered the evidence and reported

:50:33.:50:36.

back. I will be listening intently to what he has to say.

:50:37.:50:45.

The question is that new cl`use one be read a second time. Before I call

:50:46.:50:52.

the honourable lady, we havd got a total of two hours, so about another

:50:53.:50:56.

hour and a half, and they'rd quite a large number of people wanthng to

:50:57.:50:59.

speak. If people could keep us tight as possible that be great. Thank

:51:00.:51:06.

you, Madam Deputy Speaker. H write to remove the amendment that stands

:51:07.:51:08.

in my name and following on from the honourable lady's remarks, H have

:51:09.:51:15.

really put this amendment down by way of a probing amendment to

:51:16.:51:20.

ascertain the government's position on a number of products that have

:51:21.:51:23.

been marketed through an online marketing company by my constituent,

:51:24.:51:29.

the company is called For Chris Capper supplements. -- Focus

:51:30.:51:38.

Supplements was that he camd in a couple of weeks ago concerndd that

:51:39.:51:42.

the product they sell is legally, health supplements, and substances

:51:43.:51:45.

which people use for various things which I will go through latdr in

:51:46.:51:51.

talking to this amendment, `nd I wanted to make sure that thd

:51:52.:51:55.

Minister and the Department knew that there are substances ott there

:51:56.:51:59.

that are being marketed by perfectly honest, decent and legal colpanies,

:52:00.:52:04.

indeed on eBay and by peopld like Holland and Barrett, where there is

:52:05.:52:08.

concern that they may fall within the ambit of this bill. Therefore,

:52:09.:52:14.

criminalise those towns as which are perfectly innocuous, and indeed in

:52:15.:52:20.

some demand. I have no personal experience of these products! I am

:52:21.:52:27.

very supportive of his legislation. Let me make no mistake, I would not

:52:28.:52:31.

be moving this amendment, or asking for clarification, if I thotght

:52:32.:52:35.

there was any harm going to come from the substances that I have

:52:36.:52:40.

placed on the order paper today The purpose of this amendment is to see

:52:41.:52:49.

whether they fall foul of the substances in this legislathon.

:52:50.:52:52.

Indeed, whether clause thred, which we discussed earlier on and have

:52:53.:52:55.

been discussing in the pass`ge of this bill for the exempted

:52:56.:53:00.

substances, can be fleshed out in any way at this stage. That would

:53:01.:53:03.

also be helpful to people w`tching this debate. Many of these products

:53:04.:53:11.

are used by people to combat anxiety, aid sleep, enhanced memory

:53:12.:53:16.

and learning, and to improvd focus. And as such, they are used `s

:53:17.:53:25.

dietary supplements. Some increase the level of choline in the brain

:53:26.:53:30.

and contain a substance which is found in many foods, foods rich in

:53:31.:53:36.

choline can include smoked salmon to fried eggs and chicken liver and

:53:37.:53:45.

Brussels sprouts. Indeed, there are recommendations in some health

:53:46.:53:47.

regimes around the world th`t there is a certain level of cholines which

:53:48.:53:51.

you should be taking in everyday in your diet. The new Tropics `re

:53:52.:54:04.

supplements that can in somd cases improve one or more function of the

:54:05.:54:09.

brain. They can improve working memory, motivation or even

:54:10.:54:16.

attention. One thinks that perhaps that is a group of substancds that

:54:17.:54:19.

could easily be taken by sole of the members of this House to improve

:54:20.:54:23.

their attention to some of the debate I have been in on occasion!

:54:24.:54:30.

There is nothing that powerful! The products listed under miscellaneous

:54:31.:54:34.

are various, but for exampld oxygenating is a precursor for

:54:35.:54:41.

serotonin and is sold in from health shops such as Holland and B`rrett.

:54:42.:54:49.

-- one is a precursor for sdrotonin. Some are present in green tda.

:54:50.:54:55.

Another is available from v`rious health shops. Reverse at all I am

:54:56.:55:03.

reliably informed is found hn red wine and if an excellent substance.

:55:04.:55:06.

Fuel duty anime -- Sulbutiamine is also present in

:55:07.:55:26.

many things. My constituent asked and it was stressed that it was

:55:27.:55:29.

perfectly legal to sell these products but medicinal clails were

:55:30.:55:35.

made. In many other countrids, including the USA, I understand all

:55:36.:55:39.

of the substances I have listed in amendment one are not controlled

:55:40.:55:44.

substances. It is legal to tse, on and sell all those products in the

:55:45.:55:48.

USA, and indeed many other countries. I think one of the

:55:49.:55:53.

problems with a lot of thesd products is the relatively xoung.

:55:54.:55:57.

They are only ten years old in some cases. Although many of thel have

:55:58.:56:03.

been subject to study the academic level, they have not gone through

:56:04.:56:07.

the rigorous testing that mddicinal drugs would necessarily go through.

:56:08.:56:13.

But it seems to be... Give way? I will, but it seems to me th`t this

:56:14.:56:18.

sort of product is not the sort of products that this Government or

:56:19.:56:21.

minister is seeking to ban. I give way. My right honourable frhend is

:56:22.:56:28.

exactly right. One reason is that many fitness supplements and other

:56:29.:56:31.

supplements that work on thd brain, there is no doubt about that, growth

:56:32.:56:36.

hormone related ones student and then on things like sage oil do But

:56:37.:56:42.

the other problem she faces is the actual definition in explan`tory

:56:43.:56:47.

notes, which says that psychoactive substance is one that includes but

:56:48.:56:56.

is not limited to drowsiness, mood, all of which could affect things

:56:57.:57:02.

like antihistamines and sagd oil. We have a real problem. They are not

:57:03.:57:06.

careful, we will end up with bad lot which will undermine the st`tus of

:57:07.:57:09.

people like her constituent. The comics I could not have put it

:57:10.:57:14.

better myself! I think that is what concerns me about this legislation.

:57:15.:57:16.

I will say, I think that thd point that was made, that if it is there

:57:17.:57:23.

is a blanket ban and a stuphd ban, because it answered perfectly

:57:24.:57:26.

innocuous substances, it will undermine the very purpose for which

:57:27.:57:34.

this law is being passed. I have very grateful. Does she not think

:57:35.:57:42.

there is a danger in treating these nootropic drugs differently to the

:57:43.:57:48.

others, that we could give them some credibility and approval. There has

:57:49.:57:52.

been some research into thehr harm or otherwise, trials have bden

:57:53.:57:57.

poorly designed. They have not found any great dangers but they would not

:57:58.:58:01.

be accepted as being right for a medicinal drug. Would it not be

:58:02.:58:06.

dangerous to treat this grotp, I understand her constituent's

:58:07.:58:10.

interests commercially, to treat it in the same way as any other and

:58:11.:58:15.

give the public the impresshon that they were harmless? We do not know.

:58:16.:58:20.

I do not think that by putthng them on the exempted last anybodx should

:58:21.:58:27.

trolley conclusion that there are harmless. They obviously have an

:58:28.:58:31.

effect of some sort on individuals, otherwise, as my constituent reports

:58:32.:58:35.

today, I do not think he wotld have a 32% repeat orders for manx of

:58:36.:58:40.

these substances. I take thd point that the honourable gentlem`n is

:58:41.:58:48.

making. However, when it coles to choline, the National Acadely of

:58:49.:58:51.

Sciences has said that cholhne is the dietary requirements, as I

:58:52.:58:54.

referred to earlier, the Federal drugs agency has recommended 42

:58:55.:58:59.

milligrams of choline intakd a day. When it

:59:00.:59:09.

comes to the racetams, a trhal was carried out on rights, and ht was

:59:10.:59:19.

shown to have effect. I havd various other references were there has been

:59:20.:59:23.

a good research done into these drugs. Others, I will admit, have

:59:24.:59:27.

not had so much research carried out into them. However, the purpose of

:59:28.:59:32.

this amendment was to make sure that the law of unintended consepuences

:59:33.:59:36.

did not apply to this legislation. I think that I would ask the Linister,

:59:37.:59:40.

when he is responding to thhs group of amendments, that he needs to

:59:41.:59:47.

reassure my constituent, and many other organisations, indeed many of

:59:48.:59:50.

the health food shops that sell these supplements, that either they

:59:51.:59:55.

do not fall within the ambit of this bill, and therefore they do not need

:59:56.:00:01.

to be considered and so nond of the companies, online companies or

:00:02.:00:05.

health food shops, need concern themselves about falling fotl of

:00:06.:00:11.

this legislation, or, if yot think that they need more research to tell

:00:12.:00:14.

us what needs to be done, btt certainly expect at the bard minimum

:00:15.:00:18.

you will undertake to review this list of products that I havd

:00:19.:00:24.

produced at amendment one and let us know after discussions with the ace

:00:25.:00:30.

MD what he intends to do about it. Hopefully, he will either bd able to

:00:31.:00:33.

add them to the list, or let us know that this legislation does not apply

:00:34.:00:39.

to these products. If not, he needs to reassure my constituent by

:00:40.:00:42.

letting me know the timescales by which he will investigate these

:00:43.:00:47.

particular products and maybe others that might be brought to his

:00:48.:00:56.

attention. Keith Vaz. It is a pleasure to follow the honotrable

:00:57.:01:00.

lady for -- the honourable lady one of the most distinguished and

:01:01.:01:03.

respected members of this House She makes her case very powerfully on

:01:04.:01:09.

these points. I all her an `pology, that because of the speed whth which

:01:10.:01:12.

the select Committee was trxing to look at this bill, because of the

:01:13.:01:16.

timetable the government has given us, that we did not have thd

:01:17.:01:21.

opportunity to explore propdrly the point that she has made to take

:01:22.:01:25.

evidence from her constituent and others, who might have felt that

:01:26.:01:29.

they were going to be affected by this legislation. If we had more

:01:30.:01:34.

time, we certainly would have had them before us. And as is otr

:01:35.:01:42.

policy, I am sure that when we come to review this legislation hn a few

:01:43.:01:45.

months' time, we will have the opportunity of seeing exactly what

:01:46.:01:50.

its effect would be. But I thank her for putting down the amendmdnt and

:01:51.:01:53.

for reminding the House of the importance of all these othdr

:01:54.:01:57.

products that may be caught within the legislation. I want to commend

:01:58.:02:02.

the Minister. He is rapidly becoming one of my favourite Home Office

:02:03.:02:03.

ministers! LAUGHTER

:02:04.:02:09.

Partly, Madame Deputy Speakdr, because he agreed to be Father

:02:10.:02:14.

Christmas at the Westminster kids, party. He did it so well. -, kids

:02:15.:02:21.

club parted us also, he is prepared to the House and he did say that he

:02:22.:02:27.

would look at the work of the Select Committee and try to reflect some of

:02:28.:02:31.

its work in the amendments that he put forward to the committed stage.

:02:32.:02:38.

He has done so in many of the cases, many of the recommendations that we

:02:39.:02:42.

have put forward. He sent md yesterday, again, plenty of time to

:02:43.:02:44.

read for today, I thank him for giving me so much time, the

:02:45.:02:52.

government's response to thd... To the psychoactive bill committee

:02:53.:02:57.

stage, and to recommendations. But I should also begin by thanking the

:02:58.:03:01.

honourable member for Enfield Southgate, pushing the commhttee

:03:02.:03:05.

last year to have an inquirx into this matter before the Housd had to

:03:06.:03:11.

consider this at second reading Again, we were caught out bx the

:03:12.:03:14.

government's timetable, bec`use it was moved forward, as a restlt of

:03:15.:03:19.

which we did not have all the time in the world to consider thdse

:03:20.:03:22.

things. But I thank him for doing so. And I want to thank members of

:03:23.:03:27.

the committee, some of whom are here today, for the work that thdy did at

:03:28.:03:31.

very, very short speed in ensuring that happened. I know that the

:03:32.:03:42.

Member for why some -- one lember attended many of the meetings for

:03:43.:03:45.

this bill, despite the fact that she was sitting on to others at the

:03:46.:03:49.

time. I think the government has moved in respect of the number of

:03:50.:03:53.

points that we have made. They were right to legislate. There is no

:03:54.:03:57.

question. This has been in the entry of successive Home Office mhnisters

:03:58.:04:01.

for a number of years. The previous government was committed to doing

:04:02.:04:04.

something about it. It was `ny manifesto, as are excellent shadow

:04:05.:04:09.

Home Office minister has sahd, and I am sure if the Bulls had fallen in

:04:10.:04:15.

the opposite direction, we would have a Labour minister introducing a

:04:16.:04:19.

similar bill. So, well done to the Minister for doing this. And for

:04:20.:04:24.

incorporating. What we have said. In respect of amendments one and five,

:04:25.:04:29.

which I particularly want to blog about, I think it is very ilportant

:04:30.:04:33.

that we give support to organisations like the Angelus

:04:34.:04:38.

foundation. These voluntary organisations invariably nor more

:04:39.:04:41.

than government, because thdy draw on the experience of real lhve

:04:42.:04:46.

people, and they are prepardd to come together on a voluntarx basis

:04:47.:04:53.

in order to try and warn thd public and Parliament about the risks of

:04:54.:04:58.

these substances. I am glad we are not using the word legal highs any

:04:59.:05:02.

more, because as the report says quite clearly, that encourages

:05:03.:05:06.

people to want to try them. In respect to education, I agrde very

:05:07.:05:09.

much with what the shadow mhnister has said. I am sure this will be

:05:10.:05:14.

echoed by the Minister when he speaks. We cannot do enough to save

:05:15.:05:20.

young people -- persuade yotng people that they should not be

:05:21.:05:24.

taking these substances. My children are 20 and 18, away at univdrsity.

:05:25.:05:29.

It is every parent's nightm`re that one of those children, one of their

:05:30.:05:35.

children, out on a night out after studying and doing their work will

:05:36.:05:39.

be offered a substance which is perfectly legal, they will take that

:05:40.:05:43.

substance and they will then be ill and in some cases die. And

:05:44.:05:48.

therefore, the tough approach by the government is something that the

:05:49.:05:50.

Home Affairs Select Committde absolutely supports.

:05:51.:06:03.

Does he think if we change legal highs to a legal highs they will

:06:04.:06:08.

become even more attractive to adolescence? It may well do and I

:06:09.:06:13.

think young people are, werd not calling them legal highs, that is

:06:14.:06:19.

the point. The bill does not seek to change the name. The effect of the

:06:20.:06:26.

bill is to ban the substancds which caused death. It is not a

:06:27.:06:30.

relabelling. I have great rdspect for my honourable friend, hd was a

:06:31.:06:37.

distinguished member of the Home Affairs Select Committee and I know

:06:38.:06:41.

his position is to liberalise the law on drugs. It is not my position,

:06:42.:06:46.

nor that of the Home Affairs Select Committee. Though we miss hhm, and I

:06:47.:06:51.

know he would have forced otr reports to vote, we don't mhss him

:06:52.:07:01.

that much! It is every parent's nightmare that their child should

:07:02.:07:05.

die of drugs, whether it is legal or not is actually neither herd nor

:07:06.:07:10.

there. If we legislate to m`ke the use of illegal drugs more lhkely,

:07:11.:07:16.

which is my view on amendment five if that is not carried, then we are

:07:17.:07:22.

not serving our children. The honourable gentleman is absolutely

:07:23.:07:26.

right and that takes me on to the discussion on camel nitrates. The

:07:27.:07:36.

Shadow minister says that mhnisters have come to the dispatch box having

:07:37.:07:40.

poppers. I thought that was what she said. That came as a great surprise

:07:41.:07:46.

to those of us in the House. She busily knows more than I do about

:07:47.:07:49.

these issues although she claims to know nothing about drugs. I am

:07:50.:07:58.

grateful to my honourable friend having served along an on the

:07:59.:08:04.

committee. I think my recollection was that it was Ernest Bevin in that

:08:05.:08:09.

post-war Labour government who had a bit of a heart murmur and w`s

:08:10.:08:19.

prescribed it from his doctor and was sniffing poppers around the

:08:20.:08:25.

Cabinet table. I thank him for that information and wonder whether it is

:08:26.:08:29.

still in use around the Cabhnet table.

:08:30.:08:45.

We accepted what he said th`t they were not capable, not seem to be

:08:46.:08:53.

capable of having harmful effects, sufficient to constitute a problem.

:08:54.:09:01.

Therefore we recommended un`nimously that they should not be banned. We

:09:02.:09:06.

said if there was evidence that the government brought forward to change

:09:07.:09:11.

that position and change our view then of course they should be added

:09:12.:09:15.

to the list of banned subst`nces. Indeed, we say this, if there is any

:09:16.:09:22.

evidence produced in the contrary, then poppers should be moved from

:09:23.:09:27.

the exempted list or controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act. The

:09:28.:09:36.

minister last night wrote to me and said he had a proposal that a review

:09:37.:09:42.

should begin. He felt there should still be a case for putting poppers

:09:43.:09:50.

on the banned list but that if the evidence changed he would come back

:09:51.:09:55.

to the House or by some othdr order and put them on the exempted list. I

:09:56.:10:01.

think this is the wrong way round. The shadow minister asked md for my

:10:02.:10:04.

view, I have listened to wh`t the member for Winchester has s`id, in

:10:05.:10:15.

this particular case, and wd also said certain things about l`ughing

:10:16.:10:20.

gas being banned, that we dhd not feel the case should be... Has been

:10:21.:10:28.

made and I do feel that, and this is my personal view, when we considered

:10:29.:10:36.

this and we voted upon it a unanimous decision, we did not

:10:37.:10:40.

consider that poppers were harmful. Now, the minister writes back and

:10:41.:10:44.

actually tells the House th`t poppers are beneficial, as hf in

:10:45.:10:51.

some cases it may well be m`ndatory. It says this, that government

:10:52.:10:54.

recognises that representathons have been made to the effect that poppers

:10:55.:10:58.

have a beneficial health and relationship affect in enabling

:10:59.:11:03.

banal sex for some men who have sex with men. And it concern about the

:11:04.:11:13.

effect of the ban on these len. The Home Office will now considdr

:11:14.:11:16.

whether there is evidence to support the claims and whether it is

:11:17.:11:23.

sufficient to exempt poppers in the group. Though I welcome that, I

:11:24.:11:30.

think it is actually the wrong way around and I think you bettdr course

:11:31.:11:35.

of action is to put amyl nitrite on the exempted list, to conduct the

:11:36.:11:41.

review and then to come back to the House or by order and changd that

:11:42.:11:45.

position. It is what we likd to call evidence -based decision-making

:11:46.:11:49.

This is what we have said consistently over the eight years

:11:50.:11:53.

that I have chaired the Homd Affairs Select Committee. There is ` lot of

:11:54.:11:56.

emotion out there on drugs, a lot of people who have great concerns. Some

:11:57.:12:03.

passionately in favour of liberalisation, others of a

:12:04.:12:08.

different position, but why take a position where you ban and then

:12:09.:12:14.

un-ban. It actually affects the huge authority that the government has in

:12:15.:12:18.

respect of this important legislation and he has the whole

:12:19.:12:20.

house with him on this legislation. I doubt we will divide on m`ny

:12:21.:12:27.

issues, and this is pretty rare on Home Office bills. I am tryhng to

:12:28.:12:30.

think of another bill that H sat on and we have considered wherd this is

:12:31.:12:36.

not the case. It is always ` division of some kind. Why divide

:12:37.:12:41.

the House on this particular issue when there is no reason to do so? I

:12:42.:12:49.

say to the Minister, except the amendment, or indeed, don't oppose

:12:50.:12:54.

the amendment, and let us move forward in a constructive w`y. Have

:12:55.:12:57.

his review, come back and everyone in this House will accept what the

:12:58.:13:04.

experts are saying. Without equivocation, I give him thhs

:13:05.:13:08.

guarantee that if indeed thd review decides that poppers are harmful, I

:13:09.:13:12.

will be the first in the division lobby with him supporting this view.

:13:13.:13:18.

But to ban and then un-ban sends a powerful message out to a sdction of

:13:19.:13:24.

our community that they are not being listened to and to experts who

:13:25.:13:27.

have given evidence to us that they are wrong. So I urge him evdn at

:13:28.:13:37.

this late stage, to look at this again and ensure that amyl nitrite

:13:38.:13:44.

is put on the exempt list until his review is concluded. We still have a

:13:45.:13:50.

large number of members who want to come in and at this rate, wd won't

:13:51.:13:55.

get everybody in. I cannot put a time limit on that if members could

:13:56.:14:01.

keep brief, we can get everxone in. Eyebrows firstly just to sax what a

:14:02.:14:08.

pleasure it is to follow thd chairman of the Home Affairs Select

:14:09.:14:12.

Committee. I agree with almost every part of his argument and certainly

:14:13.:14:16.

with the conclusions of the select committee rich port and -- report. I

:14:17.:14:28.

also certainly want to give time to my honourable friend for Finchley

:14:29.:14:33.

and Golders Green who has bden fighting a battle behind thd scenes

:14:34.:14:38.

to make sure we don't do anxthing really daft with this legislation.

:14:39.:14:43.

There are sometimes when solething is proposed which is becoming

:14:44.:14:49.

personal to you and you realise the government is about to do something

:14:50.:14:52.

fantastically stupid and in those circumstances one has a dutx to

:14:53.:14:58.

speak up and I am, I have used poppers, I out myself as a poppers

:14:59.:15:04.

user. I would be directly affected by this legislation and in

:15:05.:15:10.

astonished to find that it hs proposing to be banned and frankly,

:15:11.:15:18.

so with very many other gay men If I follow my own mindset reaction to

:15:19.:15:24.

this, it simply serves to bring the whole law into disrepute and then

:15:25.:15:30.

begins to bring... Choosing to ban this, which I have been using, and I

:15:31.:15:41.

know has been used, for dec`des then respect for the law is going to

:15:42.:15:47.

fly out the window for people if that is the drug that they tse and

:15:48.:15:51.

all the warnings that it contained in paragraph 43 of the select

:15:52.:15:55.

committee report, particularly that from a gay men's health collective

:15:56.:16:05.

it would result in increased transmission of sexually tr`nsmitted

:16:06.:16:07.

infections, is busy going to happen and driving the supply of these

:16:08.:16:12.

underground simply puts it hn the hands of criminals and put those...

:16:13.:16:20.

I give way. I think it is rhght to focus on the supply. It is hmportant

:16:21.:16:26.

we make the message clear that the continued personal use of poppers is

:16:27.:16:34.

not being banned but the supply Under 18,, the sale of it to under

:16:35.:16:50.

18 's is covered by the act. We need to be aware that this is a

:16:51.:16:56.

computer-aided error of law -- complicated area of law. Whhlst I

:16:57.:17:04.

know my honourable friend h`s done a significant amount of work here and

:17:05.:17:07.

influence this in the right direction, he has been workhng to

:17:08.:17:17.

make sure we don't do something daft with this. He is loyal to hhs front

:17:18.:17:27.

bench, as I try to be. I am not going to be party to somethhng I

:17:28.:17:37.

know is frankly really foolhsh. As a piece of public policy. The issue is

:17:38.:17:42.

about supply and what it might do to someone like me might be to put me

:17:43.:17:46.

in the hands of the criminals to get my supply for something I used to

:17:47.:17:50.

think was perfectly OK. Then there is a piece of legislation which I

:17:51.:17:55.

think is absurd which someone like me, I might find myself in the hands

:17:56.:18:03.

of people who are supplying everything else. It is manifestly

:18:04.:18:10.

stupid to go down the path that we are doing. Let's have the evidence

:18:11.:18:13.

and if government can then come forward with the case that can

:18:14.:18:17.

convince the chairman of thd Home Affairs Select Committee and his

:18:18.:18:19.

colleagues on that in due course then we can have a discussion about

:18:20.:18:28.

this issue then. Do not ban it. It does seem to be a grey area. I

:18:29.:18:33.

understand it is not intenddd to victimise current users of the drug

:18:34.:18:36.

but it does put them in the position where they may be susceptible to

:18:37.:18:41.

blackmail, dealing with crilinals. It seems to me this will crhminalise

:18:42.:18:48.

people. Indeed, and I am advertising the fact I may be vulnerabld to

:18:49.:18:53.

that. I am pleading with thd House to make sure I don't find mxself

:18:54.:18:58.

caught in this particular shtuation. Given that it relates to my own

:18:59.:19:05.

personal experience, and my experience as a Minister for justice

:19:06.:19:10.

with responsibility for offdnders and offender management, I hmplore

:19:11.:19:17.

my colleagues at the very ldast please don't be associated with

:19:18.:19:22.

putting this on the statute book. It is a mistake. The sensible thing to

:19:23.:19:31.

do would be for us to look `t it again in June. First of all, can I

:19:32.:19:42.

just say I'm not alone in mx constituency. I do not like the word

:19:43.:19:48.

legal highs. The very words attract young people to them. I would also

:19:49.:19:55.

like to commend the governmdnt for coming forward with a strong

:19:56.:19:58.

legislative force in the Hotse today. When you bring legislation

:19:59.:20:07.

like this to the House, you are the favourite of many and my

:20:08.:20:12.

constituents will be grateftl for the changes put forward herd today.

:20:13.:20:19.

I think governments have thd same stance and I welcome that. Just last

:20:20.:20:26.

year in my constituency we had the heartbreak and also the illness and

:20:27.:20:33.

trauma as a result of legal highs. A young man, I know his mother and

:20:34.:20:39.

stepfather quite well, was found dead in my constituency as ` result

:20:40.:20:46.

of his addiction to legal hhghs His parents told me that the very nature

:20:47.:20:52.

of what it is, it is a case which has caused shock across the whole

:20:53.:20:57.

province. It left the familx devastated and this is from his

:20:58.:21:05.

stepmum, Dawn. She said leg`l highs are a major problem around here and

:21:06.:21:09.

something has to be done about it. The government is doing somdthing

:21:10.:21:14.

today and I welcome that. I would like to just make some quick points

:21:15.:21:20.

in relation to amendments 14. I want to ask the Minister just three quick

:21:21.:21:24.

points and I want to make these with some background as well.

:21:25.:21:30.

The shadow referred to the legislative change in the Rdpublic

:21:31.:21:35.

of Ireland, where they have brought in a band on the legal highs. It has

:21:36.:21:40.

been extraordinarily effecthve, according to the Irish police. At

:21:41.:21:46.

the same time, five years ago there were 100 shops were selling legal

:21:47.:21:51.

highs was acceptable and th`t has been reduced to zero. The qtestion I

:21:52.:21:55.

want to ask the Minister is this, the Republic of Ireland havd stated

:21:56.:21:58.

very clearly that there is `n issue, even with the hardline legislation

:21:59.:22:02.

they brought in. A BBC investigation found the Republic of Ireland's

:22:03.:22:10.

police squad was unable to protect against a new range because of

:22:11.:22:13.

problems to stop police must scientifically prove that a

:22:14.:22:18.

substance has a psychoactivd effect and so further have only bedn a few

:22:19.:22:24.

prosecutions. One Sergeant said unfortunately a prosecution cannot

:22:25.:22:29.

be taken, outlining but even with that of legislation, which H think

:22:30.:22:37.

this legislation is based on, and so I think it is imperative th`t we

:22:38.:22:40.

were from they are system and not end up with a similar ineffdctive

:22:41.:22:45.

approach, if that is the wax it should be. At the same time, I also

:22:46.:22:50.

want to have a very clear ddfinition of, as it says in this secthon of

:22:51.:22:57.

the causes we have before us. I know that, again, I ask the Minister has

:22:58.:23:04.

there been discussions... I am aware that this year in prisons in England

:23:05.:23:08.

and Wales there have been 26 attempts to deliver drugs of the

:23:09.:23:13.

drones. Legal highs. In the first ten months of 2015. Insiders claim

:23:14.:23:18.

that it could be higher than that number of 26. Again, this

:23:19.:23:26.

legislation is great but it only works with every other government

:23:27.:23:28.

department is doing their bht. Perhaps the Minister could respond

:23:29.:23:31.

to that. I am very conscious that you set off a timescale and I will

:23:32.:23:36.

keep to that. This is my last point. In the introduction by the shadow

:23:37.:23:42.

minister, it was referred to well it is good to have this legisl`tion but

:23:43.:23:45.

there is still the possibilhty of being able to purchase legal highs

:23:46.:23:50.

and the like online. I think many of us feel that where this leghslation

:23:51.:23:54.

will be strong, the way we wanted, and I thank government for that and

:23:55.:23:57.

that will be exactly what mx constituents want to see, across

:23:58.:24:01.

crusty old Northern Ireland, to ensure that local councils `nd

:24:02.:24:05.

police can stop the manufacture and sale of these products. I'm quite

:24:06.:24:10.

happy to give way. Is he aw`re that in Ireland, after the introduction

:24:11.:24:14.

of legislation which is verx similar to this legislation, not only did

:24:15.:24:19.

every single one of that 102 shops closed down but also there `re now

:24:20.:24:24.

no longer any Irish domain websites selling these substances, and when

:24:25.:24:26.

others were hopeful the samd effect in the UK, here in England `nd

:24:27.:24:33.

Wales. I thank him for that. As I said about the shops being closed,

:24:34.:24:36.

it is really good news. It hs good stuff. But that information I gave

:24:37.:24:42.

earlier on from the Sergeant, he outlined an issue that their time to

:24:43.:24:46.

address now. I think it is good to have other examples that we can

:24:47.:24:51.

refer to, where we can get hard fast, legislative change and address

:24:52.:24:54.

those issues. On the issues of the online, again, it has been

:24:55.:24:59.

successful partially, maybe almost there in the Republic of Irdland.

:25:00.:25:03.

But at the same time, we can do it well. I commend the Minister and

:25:04.:25:05.

government for what they ard bringing forward here and this is

:25:06.:25:10.

the sort of legislation I w`nt to see, my constituents want to see as

:25:11.:25:16.

the sort of legislation that that constituents across the whole

:25:17.:25:19.

Northern Ireland want to sed. We look forward to supporting ht when

:25:20.:25:22.

it comes to devote, if it comes to one. First of all, could I thank the

:25:23.:25:29.

shadow minister for what I thought was a speech which was balanced and

:25:30.:25:35.

had some very well judged comments. I also would like to thank the

:25:36.:25:39.

Minister, my right honourable friend, for the courtesy he showed

:25:40.:25:44.

me when I took a delegation in from the National aids trust, Stonewall

:25:45.:25:52.

and others to discuss this topic. Not just from the debate to day but

:25:53.:25:57.

what has been raging in the gay press over the last few months,

:25:58.:25:59.

there is considerable concern over the need to ban poppers. Wh`t has

:26:00.:26:07.

come to the fore over the p`st few months whilst I have been working on

:26:08.:26:10.

the topic is actually the complete lack of any real empirical detail

:26:11.:26:13.

one way or the other. I do appreciate the Home Office believe,

:26:14.:26:22.

and I have no doubt they believe is genuine, that deaths have occurred

:26:23.:26:26.

from the use of poppers. However, that evidence has never been

:26:27.:26:31.

forthcoming. And so I deciddd to do a little bit more research of my

:26:32.:26:35.

own. I would like to draw attention to American research, particularly

:26:36.:26:41.

by Doctor Thomas Hall of thd University of California in Los

:26:42.:26:45.

Angeles, who gave evidence to a report for Lead Times into the

:26:46.:26:52.

effects of these drugs. I whll quote, not the whole document, but

:26:53.:26:57.

he says there is very specific research that made very little

:26:58.:27:01.

specific research and the hdalth effects. He goes on to say "By

:27:02.:27:05.

summary statement would be that in the grand scheme of drug abtse, the

:27:06.:27:09.

risks from poppers are fairly benign. Isopropyl nitrate and others

:27:10.:27:16.

appeared to be less harmful to the body in general than chronic alcohol

:27:17.:27:21.

consumption." And so I then looked at the New England medical Journal.

:27:22.:27:29.

They said, "To our knowledgd," and this was published in 2010," over

:27:30.:27:34.

the past ten years," which would now be 15 years, "There have only been

:27:35.:27:40.

two cases of visual loss after inhalation of poppers. And the

:27:41.:27:44.

anatomical basis of the injtry remains elusive." And finally, in

:27:45.:27:50.

terms of the medical research, I turned to what is known as the US

:27:51.:27:58.

HHS, the United States Department of Health and Human Services, report of

:27:59.:28:06.

January 20 13. They said, "To date, the use of nitrates as a

:28:07.:28:11.

psychoactive substance among men who have sex with men has received

:28:12.:28:15.

little attention in the addhction textbooks, where they are stbsumed

:28:16.:28:20.

amongst other in he wants," as we are hearing today. "This Is

:28:21.:28:23.

unfortunate because I think these disparate agents together b`sed on

:28:24.:28:29.

Mold of administration, inh`lation, obscures the substantial differences

:28:30.:28:33.

in both mechanism and typic`l risk of between it will nitrates, which

:28:34.:28:39.

act on a specific party, and those solvents and propellants th`t are

:28:40.:28:44.

also propelled. " That is about the sum of medical evidence that I could

:28:45.:28:50.

find. And so in the absence of medical evidence or hard fight in

:28:51.:28:55.

the UK, I wrote to the advisory committee on misuse of drugs. -

:28:56.:28:59.

hard facts in the UK. The chairman could not be more blunt, to say the

:29:00.:29:04.

least. One sentence is a grdy says, "They have not seen that poppers are

:29:05.:29:11.

capable of having harmful effects." And so there was talk about a

:29:12.:29:17.

medicinal benefit to poppers, which I thought was an interesting turn of

:29:18.:29:23.

phrase! Until I received an e-mail, and I will have to bow to the

:29:24.:29:28.

knowledge of our SNP colleagues from a gentleman in Crawley in

:29:29.:29:34.

Inverness, and he says," nitrates are carried and used when the need

:29:35.:29:41.

arises for added rights -- snakebites. Apparently the tse of

:29:42.:29:46.

poppers is assured by many people who work in the countryside as a

:29:47.:29:50.

first line of treatment is one - if one is bitten by an adder." I

:29:51.:29:58.

confessed that adders are not common in my constituency! But he goes on

:29:59.:30:04.

to say, does Mr Joyce," a substantial number of peopld are

:30:05.:30:08.

bitten each year in Britain and the bite is rarely fatal. But whether

:30:09.:30:12.

that is because the then is not particularly powerful against more

:30:13.:30:14.

than healthy humans or becatse treatment with nitrates or one of

:30:15.:30:19.

the eight non-antivenom is `lways administered very quickly is open to

:30:20.:30:24.

debate. Who scored I use th`t because it does show that there is a

:30:25.:30:27.

conflict between what is a view that is held and what limited information

:30:28.:30:32.

and fact is out in the publhc domain. And I do support th`t there

:30:33.:30:41.

is a need to provide up-to-date empirical evidence which also

:30:42.:30:44.

includes proportionality. Anything we do carries a risk. Whethdr it is

:30:45.:30:50.

smoking... If you wish to drink bleach, you will be harmed, but we

:30:51.:30:56.

are not proposing to ban bldach So anything we are seeking to control,

:30:57.:31:01.

regulate or ban has to be ddalt with in the round and has to be dealt

:31:02.:31:06.

with in terms of proportion`lity. I welcome the response to the Home

:31:07.:31:10.

Affairs Select Committee in terms of the investigation that will be

:31:11.:31:17.

underway shortly into the ilpact of the ban on the relationships of gay

:31:18.:31:21.

men and women. I am told it is not just an issue with gay men, it

:31:22.:31:24.

affects gay women as well. @s this is important to remember, and my

:31:25.:31:32.

honourable friend, the Membdr for Leicester East, the chairman of the

:31:33.:31:35.

Home Affairs Select Committde, talked about banal sex, that is

:31:36.:31:43.

quite a crude way of saying that poppers can facilitate the

:31:44.:31:45.

relaxation of muscles. But the point I want to make is not just `bout the

:31:46.:31:50.

physical side of a relationship if your relationship wishes to be as

:31:51.:31:54.

intimate as possible, and poppers facilitate that, that is important

:31:55.:31:58.

element into the emotional well-being of that couple. @nd so if

:31:59.:32:03.

we are talking about the medicinal benefits, we have to includd the

:32:04.:32:07.

relationship benefits and the mental health benefits that the usd of

:32:08.:32:12.

poppers in a relationship could bring. I do think that when we are

:32:13.:32:22.

talking about proportionality, it is important that we do not st`rt

:32:23.:32:25.

banning things on the basis of one or two incidents. It has to be a

:32:26.:32:31.

significant risk of significant harm to a significant number of people,

:32:32.:32:34.

otherwise we would be banning cigarettes and alcohol tomorrow And

:32:35.:32:39.

I must ask my rate honourable friend, and say to him, that the

:32:40.:32:44.

investigation and report must be as open and transparent as possible.

:32:45.:32:50.

And I do ask for assurance when my right honourable friend responds

:32:51.:32:54.

that the evidence will be not just from organisations like Public

:32:55.:32:58.

Health England or elements of the NHS, but is taken from organisations

:32:59.:33:05.

like the National aids trust, the Terrence Higgins trust, Stonewall,

:33:06.:33:12.

but also organisations whosd sale poppers in the UK, because they have

:33:13.:33:19.

a strong and relevant and up-to date evidence bank of how poppers are

:33:20.:33:24.

used, how they are sold, but because they are repeatable retailers, they

:33:25.:33:26.

also have an enormous amount of data on the illegal import of thd more

:33:27.:33:30.

dangerous poppers that are coming in through the Internet. And I would

:33:31.:33:37.

also ask that the Minister would say they take evidence from the

:33:38.:33:40.

international bodies. I mentioned a few earlier on all stop thex have

:33:41.:33:45.

done some medical research hnto the benefits of the use of poppdrs. And

:33:46.:33:51.

one final thing, Madame Deptty Speaker, is if the Home Offhce

:33:52.:33:55.

decides that there is a risk that needs to be mitigated, is not

:33:56.:33:59.

banned, I would urge that if you go down that path, that they look at a

:34:00.:34:04.

licensing through sex shops. If we are worried that there is a risk, is

:34:05.:34:09.

not necessarily requiring an outright ban, one option wotld be to

:34:10.:34:12.

look at having them sold through licensed sex shops, which would

:34:13.:34:15.

allow some level of control, some level of regulation, from ldvel of

:34:16.:34:21.

protection, without an outrhght ban and all of the underground drug that

:34:22.:34:25.

could lead people to be exposed There is a lot of work to bd done,

:34:26.:34:30.

and I do welcome these last action of the right honourable fridnd. You

:34:31.:34:33.

might think I am coming to the conclusion that I would be

:34:34.:34:36.

supporting the opposition's amendment today, and I have to say

:34:37.:34:39.

the opposition have spoken ` lot of sense. However, I will be stpporting

:34:40.:34:43.

the government because one of the things that concerns me is H want an

:34:44.:34:47.

exemption based on empirical evidence. So that if poppers are

:34:48.:34:53.

exempt by the summary says, as outlined in the response to the Home

:34:54.:34:58.

Affairs Select Committee, that exemption cannot easily be

:34:59.:35:03.

overturned at the whim of a future minister. That exception is based on

:35:04.:35:07.

empirical evidence, whatever it says. And on that basis, I will be

:35:08.:35:10.

supporting the government on this particular issue.

:35:11.:35:18.

I think Opec to move the amdndments and my name. -- to Berwick. I wish

:35:19.:35:32.

to speak to the amendments hn my name 12, 13, 14, 15 and along with

:35:33.:35:38.

Labour colleagues, number fhve. I will say at the outset we do support

:35:39.:35:46.

the aims of this bill to protect public health and to go aftdr the

:35:47.:35:49.

big guys, the ones making the profits out of other people's

:35:50.:35:57.

endangerment and not to go `fter the individuals who decide to try it for

:35:58.:36:02.

whatever reason. I think in that respect we are not quite thdre yet

:36:03.:36:06.

which is why we have put across these amendments. Before I do speak

:36:07.:36:11.

to the amendments, I would like to make a plea although I made it in a

:36:12.:36:18.

previous debate about the l`nguage used, and I notice today it has

:36:19.:36:24.

happened a lot less than before and that is about the names people give

:36:25.:36:27.

to the new psychoactive substances and I always say I will nevdr named

:36:28.:36:32.

those products because thosd names are given by marketeers who make

:36:33.:36:37.

them sound bold and exciting and I think it is important that we say

:36:38.:36:41.

exactly what they are and don't use the names that they wish to give

:36:42.:36:49.

them. Amendment 12, the defhnition of psychoactive substance. @s I say,

:36:50.:36:53.

we welcome the broader publhc health aims of this bill. And we h`ve

:36:54.:36:59.

worked hard with the governlent down here to make sure that meastres are

:37:00.:37:03.

proportionate and based on the best advice available to us. And the best

:37:04.:37:07.

advice is available from thd advisory Council on the mistse of

:37:08.:37:10.

drugs which made it very cldar in their submission that the

:37:11.:37:13.

definitions at the heart of the bill require further detail. The Home

:37:14.:37:18.

Affairs Select Committee recommended the government should the

:37:19.:37:22.

definition. The government seems to come at this from another angle

:37:23.:37:25.

going against the grain of scientific advice so we tabled this

:37:26.:37:30.

amendment to be more specifhc when it comes to the definitions. If you

:37:31.:37:33.

are to ask a member of the public what they consider to be a little

:37:34.:37:37.

high, they would generally define them not by chemical family or the

:37:38.:37:43.

fact they are psychoactive hn and of themselves but the similarities in

:37:44.:37:48.

effect they produce to substances already prohibited. It would improve

:37:49.:37:57.

the public understanding and acceptance of these measures. The

:37:58.:38:01.

other important aspect of the amendment is tying legislathon from

:38:02.:38:06.

public health and threat of harm. The bill as it stands as a broad

:38:07.:38:11.

measure and what it is the government's intention to cover all

:38:12.:38:16.

psychoactive substances, it is surely a good principle of

:38:17.:38:18.

legislation that we are cle`r on what the threat is that we `re

:38:19.:38:23.

legislating to tackle. It is the effects of psychoactive substances

:38:24.:38:26.

on the individual and the threat to public health, that should be

:38:27.:38:37.

tackled. Amendment 13, we wdlcome the government's move to

:38:38.:38:40.

criminalising supply and not necessarily possession that we move

:38:41.:38:44.

the amendment to try to prevent the counter productive canonisation of

:38:45.:38:48.

young people who together ptrchased psychoactive substances with one of

:38:49.:38:54.

them placing the order that using money from the wider group. That

:38:55.:38:59.

person could be at risk of being criminalised for supplying `

:39:00.:39:10.

psychoactive substance. The Honourable member knows I al sure

:39:11.:39:14.

that that approach in relathon to you supply... Two youths, placing an

:39:15.:39:24.

order with a dealer and distributing it among their friends, that is

:39:25.:39:28.

entirely consistent with thd law when it comes to the Misuse of Drugs

:39:29.:39:31.

Act because the messages if you buy a drug and then distribute ht, in

:39:32.:39:34.

the eyes of the law you are a supplier and I think I would be

:39:35.:39:38.

interested to know why she thinks that should be a distinction between

:39:39.:39:42.

these types of drugs and thd more serious drugs under the 1970 act

:39:43.:39:48.

because surely we are trying to achieve the same aim, to stop the

:39:49.:39:53.

supply of harmful substances. My understanding was that we wdre

:39:54.:39:57.

trying not to mirror the Misuse of Drugs Act, but to take the bits of

:39:58.:40:02.

that that we moved on. In tdrms of this bill is not about crimhnalising

:40:03.:40:06.

individuals for possession, whereas under the Misuse of Drugs Act they

:40:07.:40:10.

can be and are criminalised for possession. It doesn't have two

:40:11.:40:14.

major it exactly. Ayes have to mirror it. Drugs like enough lives,

:40:15.:40:27.

certainly in my constituencx. Without the need to penalisd

:40:28.:40:30.

somebody who is acting on bdhalf of his or her peer group, without any

:40:31.:40:36.

financial motives. They are not drugs suppliers. Obviously we may

:40:37.:40:42.

question the decision and wd do question the sensing the decision to

:40:43.:40:47.

do that but it shouldn't be a criminal offence and we are creating

:40:48.:40:55.

a situation where a young pdrson could be pressurised by the group to

:40:56.:40:59.

purchase substances that if they are caught, it could lead to thdm having

:41:00.:41:06.

a substantial criminal convhction. The point surely is to introduce

:41:07.:41:14.

clarity to those young people you are describing because if a young

:41:15.:41:17.

person buys ecstasy, that is a class a drug and they are at risk of going

:41:18.:41:22.

to prison for a long time if they are prosecuted and convicted. If a

:41:23.:41:26.

young person buys one of thdse new psychoactive substances that is

:41:27.:41:31.

minimally different from MDLA but dealers get round it becausd they

:41:32.:41:35.

say it is not ecstasy, it is a bit different and therefore doesn't fall

:41:36.:41:39.

under the 1971 act, that pl`ce is that young person in a very

:41:40.:41:45.

difficult position. They have two... My question is did you encotrage

:41:46.:41:48.

clarity between those drugs so that young people know they should not be

:41:49.:41:51.

buying the substances and distributing them? I am not arguing

:41:52.:41:58.

that we should not be discotraging them. I am arguing that if somebody

:41:59.:42:03.

buys them for themselves and a couple of friends that we shouldn't

:42:04.:42:06.

criminalise them as if they were drug dealers. When they are clearly

:42:07.:42:11.

not click drug dealers. I h`ve strong concerns that further down

:42:12.:42:14.

the line members of this Hotse will be contacted by the parent of

:42:15.:42:18.

somebody who very foolishly purchased a substance on behalf of

:42:19.:42:23.

themselves or one of two frhends and was later convicted of supply and

:42:24.:42:27.

they see their life chances greatly diminished. Of course saying to them

:42:28.:42:31.

this could happen to you if you do this, we hope that would discourage

:42:32.:42:34.

them but I certainly don't think we should be punishing and labdlling

:42:35.:42:39.

somebody at a drug dealer ptshed it with the buying stuff for their

:42:40.:42:46.

friends. If I could just finish my point. People do pass a strong moral

:42:47.:42:53.

judgment on anyone who has ` conviction to do with drugs that are

:42:54.:43:02.

strong moral conviction in Hraq -- you are talking about someone who is

:43:03.:43:06.

getting drugs for himself and his friends, not a drug dealer. And that

:43:07.:43:11.

is what the conviction would be Following arguments from thd other

:43:12.:43:17.

side, does the young -- Honourable Lady agree that tobacco and alcohol,

:43:18.:43:32.

does she contemplate the effects that bans on the substances have had

:43:33.:43:41.

across the world? Today we `re here talking about new psychoacthve

:43:42.:43:44.

substances and lost a take that point, they do cause considdrable

:43:45.:43:48.

harm, I think it is important we carry on with what we are hdre to

:43:49.:43:53.

discuss today. If you think about it, any member in this chamber today

:43:54.:43:57.

has children could face the situation where their child is

:43:58.:44:03.

selling along with some fridnds experiment with legal highs. If they

:44:04.:44:09.

are fortunate enough to be damaged physically or mentally by that, we

:44:10.:44:16.

could end up with a situation where somebody's child is convictdd of a

:44:17.:44:21.

drug dealing offence just for stupidly experimenting. I w`nt to

:44:22.:44:26.

move on to amendment 14 abott Internet purchase. I Alan alendment

:44:27.:44:41.

relates to purchasing drugs over the Internet which is then shipped into

:44:42.:44:47.

the UK. The government says they are moving forward and not seekhng to

:44:48.:44:50.

criminalise individuals unnecessarily and the bill hndicates

:44:51.:44:56.

those purchased in other waxs one be committing a criminal offence.

:44:57.:45:01.

However this part of the bill does criminalise. I would argue they

:45:02.:45:13.

should not concern themselvds with the purchase for personal use for

:45:14.:45:25.

individuals. The spirit of the bill is that we do not want to

:45:26.:45:29.

criminalise individuals for possession but we are going to

:45:30.:45:32.

criminalise the sale and purchase of the substances. So we ask for

:45:33.:45:37.

further clarification. He c`me back and said, I apologise. I was talking

:45:38.:45:46.

about intent to supply, not intent to use. Making a purchase from a

:45:47.:45:51.

foreign website would be catght but the purchase on its own would not

:45:52.:45:58.

and I apologise if I misled the House on that point. My honourable

:45:59.:46:02.

friend then pressed the Minhster and said laws eight -- clause ehght the

:46:03.:46:14.

person intentionally purchases that substance and intends to consume it

:46:15.:46:20.

for its effect. It seems to me if somebody imports and possesses a

:46:21.:46:25.

small amount of substance over the Internet, they are criminalhsed but

:46:26.:46:30.

if they purchase it at a he`d shop, he or she would not be crimhnalised.

:46:31.:46:38.

The minister responded, that is not the bill's intention. As we go

:46:39.:46:42.

through the bill, we will endeavour to iron out those concerns. At the

:46:43.:46:51.

committee stage, I have Honourable friends who were on the comlittee

:46:52.:46:56.

and I known the Minister offered this statement. Possession hn a club

:46:57.:47:02.

would not be an offence, indeed possession is not an offencd under

:47:03.:47:05.

any part of the legislation and less in a secure facility. It is

:47:06.:47:09.

important to send that mess`ge out. I really would like some cl`rity

:47:10.:47:13.

from the Minister on that. Could I ask a much longer I have? There are

:47:14.:47:19.

no time limits in this debate but there are many people wanting to

:47:20.:47:23.

speak and the group is getthng longer so the longer the Honourable

:47:24.:47:26.

Lady speaks, the less time others have a chance to do so. I whll move

:47:27.:47:37.

on. I'm taking my killer arguments and bringing them up. I want to make

:47:38.:47:49.

one more point about the purchasing online. If we are saying it is not a

:47:50.:47:54.

criminal offence to purchasd down a dark alley, which is where xou would

:47:55.:47:58.

have two purchase if you were intending to purchase these

:47:59.:48:01.

psychoactive substances, it is not a criminal offence to do that, but it

:48:02.:48:05.

is an offence to do it over the Internet. You will end up whth a

:48:06.:48:09.

situation where two people, brother and sister, can try exactly the same

:48:10.:48:13.

thing, one of them is a crilinal and one isn't. Who do you think is most

:48:14.:48:22.

likely to be meeting a crimhnal drug dealer back alley? I would say it is

:48:23.:48:27.

far more likely that women will be criminalised for this because they

:48:28.:48:30.

are less likely to want to go and meet the drug dealer in person.

:48:31.:48:37.

Amendment 15, this was lookhng at sentencing with potential h`rm of

:48:38.:48:44.

the substance involved. The Minister did say he supported the prhnciple

:48:45.:48:47.

behind the amendment at comlittee stage though it is just to hear

:48:48.:48:53.

where he stands on it today. On poppers, I am proud the SNP

:48:54.:48:57.

champions this from the start and it was great to hear so many p`ssionate

:48:58.:49:01.

speeches of support from both sides of the House. I won't say anything

:49:02.:49:07.

else other than we support that and I will sit down and let somdone else

:49:08.:49:17.

speak. I rise to speak to clause three which stands in my nale. I

:49:18.:49:30.

would like to festival welcomed the very constructive approach that my

:49:31.:49:34.

honourable friend the Minister has taken to engaging with membdrs on

:49:35.:49:39.

all sides of the House during the passage of this bill. And a

:49:40.:49:45.

constructive engagement which I believe has enhanced the positive

:49:46.:49:49.

aspects of the Bill and I al pleased that there is a broad consensus

:49:50.:49:54.

across the House that this hs an important piece of legislathon which

:49:55.:49:58.

is about public protection. However, what we have heard today in

:49:59.:50:03.

listening to this debate is clearly a call for evidence made policy

:50:04.:50:09.

making. That is something that is echoed in a number of contrhbutions

:50:10.:50:12.

today when speaking to diffdrent amendments and different new

:50:13.:50:16.

clauses. That is something H believe we should all sign up to and it is

:50:17.:50:19.

in that spirit that I have tabled this amendment. Primarily as a means

:50:20.:50:29.

to examine and draw out frol the minister 's comments on what is an

:50:30.:50:33.

increasingly confused law in regard to the medicinal use of cannabis.

:50:34.:50:38.

And indeed some of the rese`rch and the fact that the law as it stands

:50:39.:50:45.

is an impediment to research into the effects of cannabis on lental

:50:46.:50:52.

health and the general rese`rch into medicinal benefits of cannabis and

:50:53.:50:54.

cannabis derivatives. A support. Would he put what you

:50:55.:51:09.

are. With your party group on drug policy reform hopes to condtct an

:51:10.:51:13.

inquiry into the Michael Gifford dumbing medicinal use on cannabis, I

:51:14.:51:18.

think it's results will be very interesting in that evidencd base he

:51:19.:51:21.

mentions. I think he is absolutely right. The two points I am going to

:51:22.:51:25.

come onto when talking about the barriers to research our first of

:51:26.:51:29.

all about barriers currentlx to medical health research, and we know

:51:30.:51:35.

that the use of cannabis has links with mental illness, partictlarly

:51:36.:51:39.

psychosis. But also into thd broader research into the medicinal benefits

:51:40.:51:41.

potentially of the many products which are contained within the

:51:42.:51:47.

cannabis plant, and that is something that the United States has

:51:48.:51:50.

looked into, and indeed we have seen over 20 seats in the United States

:51:51.:51:54.

now relax was that allowed for medicinal use of cannabis, `nd

:51:55.:52:00.

cannabis derivatives. That hs something I am very pleased to see,

:52:01.:52:03.

that the all-party group is going to look into the stop --. It is

:52:04.:52:12.

important that we look at evidence and use that to relax and change the

:52:13.:52:15.

law because the law should be for public protection but also public

:52:16.:52:20.

benefit. If there is a legitimate medicinal use of cannabis, ht is

:52:21.:52:22.

something we should be supporting and encouraging, because th`t is

:52:23.:52:29.

good for patients. No, Madale Deputy Speaker, before I proceed, H

:52:30.:52:32.

wondered also to quickly totch upon the very brave speech by my

:52:33.:52:36.

honourable friend, the Membdr for Reigate, to discuss our personal

:52:37.:52:42.

experiences in this chamber is but it is something that I brings into

:52:43.:52:47.

focus the importance of makhng sure that the love that we pass to impact

:52:48.:52:59.

in a positive way on the dax-to day lives of her constituents. He spoke

:53:00.:53:03.

very readily about his own tse of poppers. It is something th`t

:53:04.:53:07.

helped, I think, to bring alive the debate and crystallise the

:53:08.:53:11.

importance of that evidence -based policy making and something that I

:53:12.:53:14.

know the Minister will respond to later on. So under the issud of

:53:15.:53:22.

rescheduling of cannabis from a schedule one to a schedule to drug,

:53:23.:53:29.

as we are aware, the scheduling of this was laid down in 2001 `nd the

:53:30.:53:35.

reason that cannabis was considered to be a schedule one drug w`s

:53:36.:53:37.

because it did not have any medicinal benefit, which I think is

:53:38.:53:40.

something which is now conshderably in contention on the evidence, based

:53:41.:53:44.

on the evidence I am about to bring forward. It is important to

:53:45.:53:50.

highlight some of the inconsistencies. Under the Schengen

:53:51.:53:53.

agreement, it is actually ldgal for somebody in a Schengen country to

:53:54.:53:59.

bring into the UK, if they have been prescribed by a doctor in their own

:54:00.:54:02.

country, cannabis for medichnal use for up to 30 days. Yet it is not

:54:03.:54:06.

legal in this country for a doctor to prescribe cannabis for mddicinal

:54:07.:54:12.

purposes, unless that happens to be... Prescribing cannabis for the

:54:13.:54:17.

purposes of treating MS, whhch is the one licensed drug currently

:54:18.:54:22.

available. And indeed if we recognise that cannabis can be

:54:23.:54:25.

licensed for treatment of mtltiple sclerosis, MS, currently under

:54:26.:54:33.

licensing, surely we recognhse there is a medicinal benefit. Therefore

:54:34.:54:38.

schedule one is the wrong place for cannabis, because we accept there is

:54:39.:54:43.

a medicinal benefit, and thd Home Office does. We need to be looking

:54:44.:54:50.

at rescheduling the drug. I have hardly touched upon the point in

:54:51.:54:56.

responding to my honourable friend's intervention in the evidencd in the

:54:57.:54:59.

United States that is growing that there are other potential mddicinal

:55:00.:55:03.

benefits of cannabis for trdatment of patients and the relaxing was

:55:04.:55:07.

another 20 states based upon that growing evidence to stop th`t is

:55:08.:55:11.

something we clearly need to look at in this country and in parthcular,

:55:12.:55:17.

the potential benefits of c`nnabis products in palliative care is

:55:18.:55:20.

something that I think deserves considerable merit if there is

:55:21.:55:25.

greater scrutiny. So there hs an inconsistency at the moment in the

:55:26.:55:29.

classification of cannabis. That is the reason I brought this alendment.

:55:30.:55:33.

More particularly, I wanted to talk about some of the barriers to

:55:34.:55:36.

research that are in place to stop I am very grateful to my right

:55:37.:55:40.

honourable friend the Minister for meeting with Professor Sir Robin

:55:41.:55:46.

Murray and a doctor who works in mental health, particularly in

:55:47.:55:50.

psychosis, a very eminent professor to examine this issue and ldarn

:55:51.:55:53.

first-hand some of the diffhculties that the experience in condtcting

:55:54.:56:00.

research into mental ill-he`lth We know that there are links bdtween

:56:01.:56:03.

psychosis and cannabis use, particularly important that we

:56:04.:56:12.

understand the basis upon which the way that the planned works

:56:13.:56:17.

effectively on neurotransmitters, and we support researchers hn being

:56:18.:56:21.

able to conduct their research. At the moment, effectively, those

:56:22.:56:25.

researchers could potentially be criminalised for carrying ott

:56:26.:56:30.

research which would be leghtimate in many other fields of medhcal

:56:31.:56:33.

research. That is something that we, I am sure, is not an intenddd

:56:34.:56:37.

consequence. It also makes ht very difficult to carry out rese`rch in

:56:38.:56:43.

this field of mental health and the links with cannabis in an effective

:56:44.:56:46.

way and do something that I know the Minister is so pathetic to. I am

:56:47.:56:50.

looking forward to hearing from him in how we can find a workable

:56:51.:56:55.

solution. -- is sympathetic to. We do want to improve the treatment of

:56:56.:56:58.

patients with mental ill-he`lth but in order to do that, we need to

:56:59.:57:01.

properly support the researchers to carry out their work and th`t is

:57:02.:57:06.

something I hope the whole house can sign up to. Finally, I wantdd just

:57:07.:57:12.

to say to the House but in talk am speaking to my amendment, that this

:57:13.:57:16.

is not an easy matter. This is not part of a broader discussion on the

:57:17.:57:22.

merits or demerits of legalhsing cannabis. I specifically wanted to

:57:23.:57:25.

bring this amendment for discussion today in order to highlight the

:57:26.:57:29.

difficulties faced by researchers carrying out their jobs, to also

:57:30.:57:33.

highlight some of the clear inconsistencies in drug laws in

:57:34.:57:35.

relation to cannabis and thd fact that I think, or importantlx, to

:57:36.:57:40.

highlight the fact that drugs that we consider much more potentially

:57:41.:57:47.

harmful if used by the publhc, heroine or diamorphine, which is a

:57:48.:57:51.

schedule to drugs, is schedtled under that schedule or as c`nnabis,

:57:52.:57:54.

which we now know there is ` growing body of evidence to show thdre is

:57:55.:57:58.

medicinal benefit to using, is a schedule one Bronco, God. There is

:57:59.:58:05.

inconsistency. -- schedule one drug. That is something I believe the

:58:06.:58:07.

government does need to look into. But in particular, I would be very

:58:08.:58:11.

grateful for my right honourable friend's comments on how we could

:58:12.:58:15.

facilitate and ease the process of legitimate research without

:58:16.:58:19.

criminalising researchers. Would he also agree with me that there is a

:58:20.:58:26.

real anomaly when a drug such as DNP, which has caused to so many

:58:27.:58:31.

deaths of young people, which is taken as a drug for body-buhlding or

:58:32.:58:35.

to improve people's percepthon of their body image, is now cl`ssified

:58:36.:58:40.

that it falls between so many stools that it is impossible to get it

:58:41.:58:44.

banned, despite the deaths that it has caused and the damage it is

:58:45.:58:50.

doing? I think my right honourable friend speaks wisely and indeed

:58:51.:58:53.

actually, on that subject, looking at rescheduling, under schedule for,

:58:54.:59:00.

steroids are under section four two of the misuse of drugs regulation,

:59:01.:59:05.

and they are often a drug that are misused by body-builders and

:59:06.:59:11.

sometimes by other athletes. And yet, I mentioned the exampld of

:59:12.:59:15.

diamorphine, or heroine, behng a schedule to drug and I think there

:59:16.:59:21.

is a clear and compelling c`se now, both from the growing medic`l

:59:22.:59:24.

evidence but also because of the barriers to research, to look at

:59:25.:59:31.

rescheduling of cannabis, btt more broadly even before we get to that

:59:32.:59:34.

point, I know there is more that we can do to make it easier to research

:59:35.:59:37.

the link between cannabis and mental health, support the research and

:59:38.:59:46.

hopefully move towards a position whereby we are in a better position,

:59:47.:59:51.

not just through legislation were discussing today to protect the

:59:52.:59:53.

public with regards to psychoactive substances but also on the basis of

:59:54.:59:57.

this bill, improve our care of a number of the most abominable

:59:58.:59:59.

patients that our health service looks after. -- of the most

:00:00.:00:09.

vulnerable patients. Look forward to hearing the response and thd debate

:00:10.:00:14.

later on. I rise to support new clause one and amendment for and I

:00:15.:00:18.

would like to start by congratulating my honourabld friend

:00:19.:00:20.

on the front bench for the dxcellent way she set out the reasoning behind

:00:21.:00:25.

why new clause one and amendment for need to be incorporated into the

:00:26.:00:30.

bill. I would also like to say that it has been six years now, H think,

:00:31.:00:33.

since he seriously started to discuss in Parliament white PS HD

:00:34.:00:39.

should be made compulsory. Ht is with great regret that we dhd not

:00:40.:00:42.

manage to do it when we werd in power. At the very end of the 2 10

:00:43.:00:48.

Labour Government, it was going to be made a statutory part of the

:00:49.:00:51.

National Curriculum. There was a very good case made for it. It was

:00:52.:00:56.

building on that late skills and building confidence and reshlience

:00:57.:01:01.

in young people that we all accept needs to be happening. To mdet the

:01:02.:01:05.

challenges young people facd in the modern world, include and how you

:01:06.:01:07.

deal with drugs and these ndw psychiatric substances. And it was

:01:08.:01:12.

with great regret that in the wash of that final months leading up to

:01:13.:01:16.

the election in 2010, we were not able to secure the support of the

:01:17.:01:20.

Conservatives to actually gdt that change to the law. I also w`nted to

:01:21.:01:26.

refer to the UK drug policy commission, who spent six ydars we

:01:27.:01:29.

on what our policies around drugs should be in this country. Their

:01:30.:01:33.

findings on drugs education was this, the best drugs educathon is

:01:34.:01:41.

best delivered in an evidence -based life skills programme, and that is

:01:42.:01:45.

why I think PSHE been made compulsory is really import`nt. And

:01:46.:01:50.

why doesn't need to be statttory? The education select committee in a

:01:51.:01:54.

report last year said there is a lack of clarity on the statts of the

:01:55.:01:59.

subject. This must change and we accept the items that statutory

:02:00.:02:03.

status is needed for PSHE. The reasons for that is because we know

:02:04.:02:09.

that it is variable all arotnd the country. In some schools th`t are

:02:10.:02:12.

stored very well but in manx schools it is not what will it all. The

:02:13.:02:16.

reason for that is because ht is not statutory. It is not a subjdct that

:02:17.:02:19.

is measured bust up we know that head teachers will have an dye all

:02:20.:02:23.

the time to making sure that there are schools and pupils do bdst in

:02:24.:02:26.

what is measured. I have to say that that is the compelling argulent for

:02:27.:02:30.

me to make sure that we havd a level playing field across all schools.

:02:31.:02:36.

They all have to provide st`tutory PSHE and other important re`son why

:02:37.:02:40.

it is important for it to bd statutory is because if you make it

:02:41.:02:43.

statutory, you have to ensure that teachers are properly traindd. One

:02:44.:02:47.

of the big problems with thd way PSHE is delivered today in this

:02:48.:02:50.

country is that it is often the teacher who perhaps have a little

:02:51.:02:56.

bit more time in their timetable to teach PSHE. It is perhaps the PE

:02:57.:03:00.

teacher who takes response `bility to stop but it is not a teacher who

:03:01.:03:03.

has got the level and depth of training required if you're going to

:03:04.:03:08.

teach this subject properly. We know, as my honourable friend from

:03:09.:03:11.

the front bench said, many students say they only have one hour of drugs

:03:12.:03:19.

education in their schools. At the moment, we are relying on the

:03:20.:03:22.

goodwill and charities and other organisations to provide information

:03:23.:03:25.

to our young people and I think that is wrong. But I do want to pay

:03:26.:03:29.

tribute to Angelus because H think the work that they have dond, and

:03:30.:03:33.

the organisation of course was set up and very sad circumstancds by

:03:34.:03:40.

Marion Stewart, who lost her own daughter, who took GBL not knowing

:03:41.:03:44.

what it was and very, very sadly died, but Marion has really thought

:03:45.:03:46.

hard for this piece of legislation to be put on the statute books. She,

:03:47.:03:51.

I am sure, would be the first to say that we actually need to make sure

:03:52.:03:55.

that I people are educated. It is not just about changing the law it

:03:56.:03:59.

is about making sure that young people make good decisions for

:04:00.:04:03.

themselves. I also just want to refer to an organisation in my own

:04:04.:04:11.

constituency called Real also tried to get information out to young

:04:12.:04:14.

people in Hull to explain about legal highs. I know we have had a

:04:15.:04:19.

debate is already about how we describe legalise, and of I think it

:04:20.:04:23.

is right we refer to them as psychoactive substances rather than

:04:24.:04:28.

legal highs. But this is all relying on goodwill and charity and that is

:04:29.:04:32.

why I think it is vital that these amendments will be accepted by the

:04:33.:04:36.

front bench. Before the Minhster responds, I also just want to say

:04:37.:04:40.

one thing about Frank. My honourable friend also referred to this. Frank

:04:41.:04:44.

is not good enough. It really isn't! If the government are seriots about

:04:45.:04:47.

making sure that young people do have information to make good

:04:48.:04:52.

choices in their lives, Frank is not the delivery mechanism for that So

:04:53.:04:55.

we know that young people gdnerally have called for to be made

:04:56.:04:59.

statutory. It was one of the campaign hs that

:05:00.:05:02.

the youth Parliament a few xears ago supported and run with. We know

:05:03.:05:07.

parents support this and want to see it brought into schools. We know the

:05:08.:05:11.

education select committee ` cross-party --, a cross-party group

:05:12.:05:15.

of MPs and this has, supported. It is clear to me that we do nded to

:05:16.:05:18.

equip our young people with late skills to make good decisions. We

:05:19.:05:22.

also need, of course, to eqtip the police with the powers that they

:05:23.:05:27.

need to enforce the law agahnst those who exploit and harm `nd

:05:28.:05:31.

damage young people in parthcular. So I hope the Minister, who annoys a

:05:32.:05:36.

sensible man and relies verx often on his good sense and common sense,

:05:37.:05:41.

will really think hard about whether rejecting these amendments today

:05:42.:05:47.

will benefit the country and the young people but we all in this

:05:48.:05:50.

House want to make sure our projected and able to make good and

:05:51.:05:52.

healthy decisions for their lives. It is characteristic of much of the

:05:53.:06:05.

debates around the bill that there has been a consensus around this. I

:06:06.:06:16.

recognise the efforts made by the Minister to bring it to the table

:06:17.:06:21.

and recognise it has been done to some pace. It is something that the

:06:22.:06:25.

Home Affairs Select Committde, we sought to keep up with. We wanted to

:06:26.:06:30.

make sure we added our pennxworth to the debate and scrutiny and

:06:31.:06:45.

hopefully it has help. In some ways, if one wishes a blanket ban on one

:06:46.:06:57.

wants to deal with it, therd are some anomalies or some concdrns and

:06:58.:07:03.

we have had other amendments around other seemingly harmless substances

:07:04.:07:06.

which may be tied into a bl`nket ban. I will give the governlent as

:07:07.:07:15.

much scope as possible to h`ng around what is the target of this

:07:16.:07:20.

bill, which is those evil pliers of the trade, this new substances

:07:21.:07:24.

coming to the market and th`t is where the target should be. In many

:07:25.:07:28.

ways, while there has been ` lot of natural concern around poppdrs and

:07:29.:07:35.

wanting not to come in lies personal use of poppers, but that is of the

:07:36.:07:45.

target of the bill. I want to focus on education because it is hmportant

:07:46.:07:49.

that we ensure there is enotgh communication out there to deal with

:07:50.:07:56.

this issue, to have a profotnd effect. That we make the most of the

:07:57.:08:00.

opportunity to educate everxone out there about the harms caused by NPS

:08:01.:08:08.

is. I've been involved in drugs policy. Time. That being -- I have

:08:09.:08:17.

been involved in this for a number of years. It is not surprishng to me

:08:18.:08:24.

that on the benches at the loment, there is no representatives from the

:08:25.:08:30.

Department for Education. It is also the case that while it was ` well

:08:31.:08:39.

attended IMG, that led to the drugs strategy in 2010, it has to be said

:08:40.:08:45.

the Department for Education was one of the most difficult departments to

:08:46.:08:48.

come to the table. I am sayhng this because it is relevant to assist the

:08:49.:08:53.

minister in wanting to ensure that communication gets out therd,

:08:54.:08:56.

education is prioritised because I do not believe the department has

:08:57.:08:57.

been as forthcoming as it should be. We should see they are serious about

:08:58.:09:14.

wanting to educate young people about the harms of NPS. I s`y these

:09:15.:09:21.

comments in relation to new clause one. I think that in the review even

:09:22.:09:29.

though we have urged the Minister and government to include education

:09:30.:09:33.

in the review, to say yes wd will look at how we have done on

:09:34.:09:37.

education and how we have spread the word about harms. The government

:09:38.:09:41.

says we have the strategic `nd indications plan, they said it to

:09:42.:09:50.

the Home Affairs Select Comlittee. We had revealed from a question that

:09:51.:09:53.

was tabled by the Honourabld member for West Ham, there are no specific

:09:54.:09:59.

funds set aside for the plans implementation. Can I perhaps, in

:10:00.:10:11.

case I forget later on, say that it will be part of the review on how we

:10:12.:10:15.

have actually done with educating young people. I will respond to the

:10:16.:10:19.

Honourable Lady in a moment to do with the financial point of view.

:10:20.:10:28.

Perhaps I won't have this responsibility in the near future so

:10:29.:10:32.

perhaps it is good that at the dispatch box that it will

:10:33.:10:38.

categorically be part of thd review. Amendment number four, is in effect

:10:39.:10:45.

what the Minister is committing too. It is welcome. When I was on the IMG

:10:46.:10:55.

through for Home Office minhsters recognising the commitment of my

:10:56.:10:59.

honourable friend to tackling drugs. While there has been a rollhng door

:11:00.:11:03.

of ministers, what still hasn't been the commitment, the involvelent of

:11:04.:11:13.

the Department for Education has to be shown. The only two countries in

:11:14.:11:19.

the world that have passed similar legislation to the spill has seen

:11:20.:11:25.

large increases in the use of these drugs, N Ireland from 16% to 22 and

:11:26.:11:32.

in Poland a level increase of 3 , the biggest in their historx. Is

:11:33.:11:37.

this bill going to have the same bad effect? I am not convinced by the

:11:38.:11:41.

premise put forward by the Honourable member. It is cldar and

:11:42.:11:47.

the evidence coming through from Ireland is that there is success in

:11:48.:11:51.

relation to the blanket ban. They have seen the closure of he`d shops

:11:52.:12:04.

and access for MPS is. -- NPS. In relation to tackling what is the

:12:05.:12:09.

most significant change in drugs legislation since 1971, this is what

:12:10.:12:11.

everyone agrees is a huge significant change. And I think

:12:12.:12:17.

progress in tackling what is very much the new drugs on the m`rket. It

:12:18.:12:21.

is not matched with the samd commitment to education and

:12:22.:12:26.

providing funding for inforlation about this piece of legislation If

:12:27.:12:30.

one looks at what the Department for Transport spent in relation to

:12:31.:12:35.

developing and delivering and evaluating communications c`mpaigns

:12:36.:12:46.

to ensure awareness of drug driving, 1.952 million pounds was spdnt on

:12:47.:12:50.

that communication exercise to deal with particularly driving under the

:12:51.:12:57.

influence of cannabis. We don't see that same commitment to what is a

:12:58.:13:01.

significant legislation and we need to see where it is going to come

:13:02.:13:04.

from to make sure that the good words expressed in the strategic

:13:05.:13:08.

mitigation plan do actually have a real effect because we need the

:13:09.:13:11.

public to be informed. Therd needs to be a strategy to cover social

:13:12.:13:16.

media, the Angelus foundation needs to be involved. For them not to be

:13:17.:13:22.

involved with Frank is frankly ridiculous. It is something that

:13:23.:13:28.

needs to change. Frank needs to communicate better with Angdlus and

:13:29.:13:37.

learn from them. I look forward to hearing from the Minister to get

:13:38.:13:41.

some reassurance on that. If I could just briefly touched on to `nother

:13:42.:13:50.

aspect. I want to link cann`bis to clause six which deals when there

:13:51.:14:03.

are arrests with class a drtgs, I want to just highlight the big issue

:14:04.:14:08.

along with NPSs with young people is their use alongside cannabis. If you

:14:09.:14:19.

go to court, you would see xoung people impacted by cannabis. There

:14:20.:14:34.

justice have their hands tidd behind their back in terms of getthng young

:14:35.:14:44.

people the treatment that they need. A holistic attention to tre`tment is

:14:45.:14:51.

needed. We need to get up to speed and the review needs to convince us

:14:52.:14:56.

that it is doing that. Briefly on poppers, I was in the committee

:14:57.:15:00.

raising the concerns raised on a half of many people about the band

:15:01.:15:05.

and I am pleased that the government has come to the point where they are

:15:06.:15:08.

seriously going to look at the evidence and exempting poppdrs.

:15:09.:15:14.

There is some complications in this. I raised the fact that therd is

:15:15.:15:19.

control around the supply of poppers. There needs to be ` look at

:15:20.:15:25.

all of these areas because where there is commonality is the problem

:15:26.:15:31.

in relation to poppers is the way they are abused and the substance

:15:32.:15:36.

that comes out becomes a harmful substance. Historically that has

:15:37.:15:39.

been the case and that is where the reference to Home Office about

:15:40.:15:49.

historical harms. It should not lead to a 11th hour conversion. Ht is

:15:50.:15:57.

encouraging but somewhat disappointing that we are still at

:15:58.:16:00.

this late stage looking at exemptions. I am willing to look at

:16:01.:16:06.

evidence because it is complicated. We do not want the blanket ban to be

:16:07.:16:11.

deluded and we need to know this is done properly with evidence. There

:16:12.:16:21.

are lots of other issues to speak about but I would like to ghve way.

:16:22.:16:30.

I would like to say this is a force of good to protect young people I

:16:31.:16:35.

start by saying to the Minister that I support the bill, I support the

:16:36.:16:40.

aims. I closed the second rdading debate of this bill in the chamber

:16:41.:16:44.

because we on the side of the House felt that it was important to not

:16:45.:16:49.

just be this as a Home Office bill, although that is where it is placed,

:16:50.:16:56.

but also in terms of its public health aspects as well and so as

:16:57.:17:00.

Labour shadow public health minister I have been very keen to promote

:17:01.:17:04.

some of the public health issues on this and I would like to colmend the

:17:05.:17:10.

work done my honourable fridnd the Minister for West Ham who I think

:17:11.:17:16.

who has led outside of the House in proceedings in committing and today

:17:17.:17:22.

in an exemplary fashion. I `lso want to say to the Minister in stpporting

:17:23.:17:26.

this bill, I want to make it as good as it can be and I do think there

:17:27.:17:31.

are a number of areas where this bill isn't as strong as it ought to

:17:32.:17:36.

be and that is why I am protd to support my honourable friend the

:17:37.:17:40.

member for West Ham in tablhng a number of amendments today.

:17:41.:17:43.

Particularly I would like to talk on two of those. Firstly new clause one

:17:44.:17:52.

on the P H S E. And also amdndment five relating to poppers. I think

:17:53.:17:55.

both have an important publhc health aspect to them. First if I could

:17:56.:18:03.

talk to new clause one and says that in an intervention I raised the fact

:18:04.:18:11.

that Simon Stephens who has a five-year forward view for the NHS

:18:12.:18:16.

has identified ?5 billion worth of savings that can be reinvested into

:18:17.:18:21.

the NHS as a consequence of prevention. I do not believd firstly

:18:22.:18:29.

that this government was wise to cut ?200 million from the public health

:18:30.:18:32.

budget because I think that is the very kind of prevention that isn't

:18:33.:18:37.

then going to bear fruit in year five of the five-year forward view.

:18:38.:18:41.

Attach any one area where the government could redeem itsdlf in

:18:42.:18:45.

terms of public health work is it by adopting new clause one. Because I

:18:46.:18:49.

have always viewed it as a weakness that we do not have in this country

:18:50.:18:56.

statutory P H S E. A lot of schools do PSHE but it is a kind of

:18:57.:19:01.

something else, it is added on to the curriculum. It is not ghven the

:19:02.:19:06.

focus that it really ought to be given. And if we are serious about

:19:07.:19:11.

tackling the whole range of health inequalities, then I think we can

:19:12.:19:16.

start from a very young age through having statutory PSHE. And hn the

:19:17.:19:20.

context of this bill if we `re going to talk about the dangers of

:19:21.:19:25.

tobacco, the dangers of alcohol and the dangers of drugs, and also talk

:19:26.:19:31.

about sex and relationships, actually, we need to do that in the

:19:32.:19:36.

context of a statutory framdwork in all of our schools. There are huge

:19:37.:19:40.

public health benefits for doing that and I think if the Minhster

:19:41.:19:46.

when he comes to consider the views that have been given today, he could

:19:47.:19:51.

do nothing better than to actually read in Hansard, the contribution of

:19:52.:19:58.

my honourable friend the melber for Hull North. I think she got it spot

:19:59.:20:04.

on. The real benefits of having proper statutory PSHE in schools I

:20:05.:20:10.

think is very clear and would really strengthen the aims and ambhtions of

:20:11.:20:16.

this bill. The second thing is to talk about our amendment five

:20:17.:20:22.

relating to poppers. Becausd in the short time that I have been Labour

:20:23.:20:27.

shadow public health ministdr I have met with lots of charities `nd

:20:28.:20:31.

organisations in the public health world. A lot of them includhng drug

:20:32.:20:36.

abuse charities raise lots of issues with me. Not one of them in all the

:20:37.:20:43.

time that I have been shadowing the public health role has raisdd

:20:44.:20:50.

poppers as a issue. I will tell the Minister who has raised poppers with

:20:51.:20:56.

me and that is a large numbdr of LGBT charities and organisations,

:20:57.:21:00.

and there is a public health role here and I think the honour`ble

:21:01.:21:04.

gentleman, the member for Fhnchley and Golders Green made some very

:21:05.:21:09.

important points, not just on the health and well-being of gax and

:21:10.:21:16.

lesbian people but also on some of the mental health issues and the

:21:17.:21:21.

relationship issues surrounding what we are discussing to day. Btt there

:21:22.:21:27.

is also a wider public health issue and it is this, that many of these

:21:28.:21:37.

organisations that I have mdt with, and to give one example, thd

:21:38.:21:43.

National AIDS Trust, have s`id to me that it is a balance of risks. And

:21:44.:21:47.

we have heard that there ard some small risks involved with alkyl

:21:48.:22:03.

nitrites. And the honourabld gentleman raised the anecdotal

:22:04.:22:06.

evidence that it could causd damage to eyesight, that I would s`y to the

:22:07.:22:10.

Minister this, balance the risks of that which are very small whth the

:22:11.:22:16.

risks of contracting a sexu`lly transmitted infection. Becatse it

:22:17.:22:21.

has been put to me, and I think there is some credence in this

:22:22.:22:27.

argument, that there are two scenarios. One is that two gay men

:22:28.:22:35.

will have protected sex with poppers that makes banal sex easier, all

:22:36.:22:43.

will alternatively use other substances if poppers are not

:22:44.:22:47.

available. It may be class ` or class B drugs, it may be alcohol,

:22:48.:22:53.

that any of those substances unlike poppers run the risk of potdntially

:22:54.:22:59.

having unsafe sex. And that increases the risk of both the

:23:00.:23:04.

contraction of HIV, hepatiths C and a string of other sexually

:23:05.:23:05.

transmitted infections. The other point is that this is

:23:06.:23:18.

potentially discriminatory `gainst a group of people who are doing no

:23:19.:23:23.

harm and just want to enjoy themselves in a sexual relationship.

:23:24.:23:28.

So I urge the Minister, think very carefully about whether the

:23:29.:23:34.

intention of this bill is to do something in the way that hd wants

:23:35.:23:38.

it to be done or the way th`t we wanted to be done. Because this

:23:39.:23:43.

Minister is known for common sense, and I credit him with that. He is

:23:44.:23:47.

straight talking and does h`ve a modicum of sense that some of his

:23:48.:23:56.

colleagues do not often display And I am being kind to the Minister

:23:57.:24:00.

there, who I have a great ddal of respect for. Because I do not

:24:01.:24:05.

understand the logic in banning poppers to look at the eviddnce to

:24:06.:24:11.

perhaps then on ban poppers, and the mixed messages that sends ott. If

:24:12.:24:18.

his review comes forward with enough evidence to warrant the banning of

:24:19.:24:21.

poppers that I will support him all the way. But actually I am not in

:24:22.:24:26.

the job of banning things for banning's sake, only to makd them

:24:27.:24:32.

not banned again. Common sense, back amendment five because that is the

:24:33.:24:38.

right approach to this. In which case, Norman Lamb. Thank yot to be

:24:39.:24:46.

called slightly earlier than I had been expecting. I rise to speak in

:24:47.:24:52.

support of the amendments that I have tabled and I guess takdn

:24:53.:25:00.

together they seek to challdnge the approach that the government as

:25:01.:25:06.

taken with this legislation. I suspect a lot of actually share the

:25:07.:25:14.

same objective. We are concdrned, surely, about harm. And we want to

:25:15.:25:20.

seek to reduce harm. Includhng to our loved ones, from the risks that

:25:21.:25:27.

drugs, both legal and illeg`l, do to people. As a father myself, I happen

:25:28.:25:35.

to be rather hostile to drugs, I am hostile to the excessive usd of

:25:36.:25:45.

illegal drugs because of thd harm that is done. I challenge the

:25:46.:25:48.

approach taken by this legislation. I will return to it but the rate

:25:49.:25:52.

honourable lady for Cheshird and Amersham made the point abott the

:25:53.:25:58.

risk of making bad law. It seems to me that there is a real risk that

:25:59.:26:05.

seductive though it is to go down the way the government is t`king, I

:26:06.:26:08.

think we've face the risk of legislating for bad law. Our

:26:09.:26:19.

objective should be harm reduction and he should base is legislation

:26:20.:26:23.

Shirley on evidence of what works. If I can spare to the Home Office's

:26:24.:26:31.

on 2014 report on drugs into rational comparators, it fotnd that,

:26:32.:26:35.

and I quote, there is no apparent correlation between the toughness of

:26:36.:26:39.

a country's approach and thd prevalence of adult drug usd. The

:26:40.:26:45.

great risk is, and the honotrable member for Newport West has made

:26:46.:26:50.

this point, that honourable members both on the government benches and

:26:51.:26:52.

opposition benches assume that this will reduce

:26:53.:27:08.

the use of these substances, but the evidence points in the opposite

:27:09.:27:11.

direction, as the honourabld member has made clear. And I refer to the

:27:12.:27:20.

fantastic speech by the honourable member for Reigate, speaking very

:27:21.:27:24.

openly and candidly. He makds the point, as others have done, that

:27:25.:27:29.

this bill, in respect of poppers, but actually cross the, drives users

:27:30.:27:36.

into the hands of criminals. The question is, what criminal has your

:27:37.:27:38.

interests at heart? Of course they do not. I would just urge honourable

:27:39.:27:44.

members to think before thex vote for this role legislation, because

:27:45.:27:49.

that is precisely what we are doing. Not only that, we are massively

:27:50.:27:56.

increasing the profits of criminals and Gromit works. And let md also

:27:57.:28:05.

make the point that the United nations office for drugs and crime

:28:06.:28:10.

has made the point that there is a clear link between illicit drugs and

:28:11.:28:18.

the profits made from illicht drugs and terrorism. The funding of

:28:19.:28:22.

terrorism. It makes the point about what has happened in Afghanhstan,

:28:23.:28:27.

with money raised from the sale of cocaine fed into the hands of the

:28:28.:28:33.

Taliban, who then use their money, their resources... I will not give

:28:34.:28:36.

away because I am conscious that time is tight and I will get into

:28:37.:28:40.

trouble from the Speaker. Wd should think before we act. Mr Deptty

:28:41.:28:47.

Speaker, new clause five urges her review of the misuse of drugs act so

:28:48.:28:57.

that we determine policy on the basis of evidence, not bridges. New

:28:58.:29:01.

clause six out of a decriminalisation of use of drugs,

:29:02.:29:04.

taking the approach used in Portugal, where we have seen

:29:05.:29:10.

evidence showing a reduction in harm as a result of that policy. New

:29:11.:29:14.

clause three, which are verx happily join with my former honourable

:29:15.:29:20.

friend, colleague in the Department of Health, in arguing for the case

:29:21.:29:24.

for facilitating research into the potential medicinal value of

:29:25.:29:34.

cannabis. And my amendment 24 argues for legalising the possession of

:29:35.:29:39.

cannabis for medicinal use. Surely we should not be criminalishng

:29:40.:29:44.

people who use cannabis to relieve pain, and yet that is what we do in

:29:45.:29:50.

this country. It is madness. Finally, new clause four argues that

:29:51.:29:57.

surely we should only be banning substances under this legislation

:29:58.:30:03.

after they have been referrdd to the advisory Council on the mistse of

:30:04.:30:08.

drugs so that a judgment, an objective judgment, can be lade

:30:09.:30:12.

about whether that particul`r substance causes social harl. And

:30:13.:30:18.

that of course is in line whth amendment five. Mr Deputy Speaker,

:30:19.:30:21.

we are about to commit an act of total madness. Banning poppdrs. And

:30:22.:30:28.

then removing the band just a few months down the track. It m`kes

:30:29.:30:31.

absolutely no sense at all `nd is the honourable member for Howden

:30:32.:30:36.

said, it absolutely brings the law into disrepute. So, Mr Tebbht is

:30:37.:30:42.

bigger, I conclude by saying that the approach taken in this bill is

:30:43.:30:48.

seductive. People are fearftl of the effects of these products. ,- Mr

:30:49.:30:52.

Deputy Speaker. It is alternately bad law and will have precisely the

:30:53.:30:59.

wrong effect. I would like to speak to the amendments today just to

:31:00.:31:03.

express my broad support of what the government is trying to do to stop

:31:04.:31:08.

at the beginning of this wedk, this is a major issue implements, your

:31:09.:31:12.

local paper ran a story abott an individual who drowned in a local

:31:13.:31:17.

harbour in October 2014. A toxicology report show that among

:31:18.:31:21.

the number of other drugs, hllegal I was present in his system. Sadly, I

:31:22.:31:26.

need only look back a furthdr five days in the same paper to fhnd

:31:27.:31:30.

another story about these chemicals, which have now become a hunting

:31:31.:31:36.

menace to society. -- haunthng menace. Over Christmas, I wdnt and

:31:37.:31:40.

served Christmas lunch to the homeless at the hostels and they are

:31:41.:31:45.

being plagued outside of thdse hostels by people selling these

:31:46.:31:49.

illegal highs. It is a real problem in Plymouth. Not only that, I got

:31:50.:31:53.

with the emergency services at least once a month and you see thd

:31:54.:31:56.

challenge that is presented to our law enforcement by these substances.

:31:57.:32:02.

I fully support the Minister in his efforts to identify the new

:32:03.:32:08.

psychoactive substances and react more quickly to them. I ran a

:32:09.:32:13.

campaign briefly prior to Christmas are attempting to raise awareness of

:32:14.:32:17.

these prior to the festive period. I strongly support other councils and

:32:18.:32:20.

I would like Plymouth to le`d the way in this in terms of getting

:32:21.:32:25.

these substances banned loc`lly before this psychoactive substances

:32:26.:32:28.

bill comes through. But ulthmately, this comes on to a key thing for me.

:32:29.:32:32.

We often talk in this House of how we support those who challenge the

:32:33.:32:38.

most challenging parts of society, such as police officers and prison

:32:39.:32:41.

officers. They strongly support what we are doing here. It is not good

:32:42.:32:46.

enough simply to stand up in the House of commons and say we don t

:32:47.:32:48.

support the portable isn't fully support risen officers and then not

:32:49.:32:52.

give them the tools to do it, which is what I think the stars. That is

:32:53.:32:56.

why a supporter of the government's position on this. -- this is what I

:32:57.:33:02.

think this is. Can I point out one major error before I start, and that

:33:03.:33:05.

is a picture of me has been widely read we did by members of the House.

:33:06.:33:11.

It was taken from American television, where tens of mhllions

:33:12.:33:14.

of people were informed in the caption under my picture th`t I was

:33:15.:33:18.

the leader of the Labour Party! CHEERING

:33:19.:33:23.

I just wanted to point that this information is premature! I am

:33:24.:33:30.

generally sweet describing this bill as being a landmark in legislative

:33:31.:33:35.

futility. It is in fact worse than that. This bill will do harl as all

:33:36.:33:43.

the other Prohibition bills in the 28 years that I have been hdre have.

:33:44.:33:48.

They have all gone harm. Thd committee does not seem to have

:33:49.:33:51.

considered what has happened with the two bills in the two cotntries

:33:52.:33:55.

that have passed them, Bill is very similar to this. In Ireland,

:33:56.:34:01.

certainly the shops closed down of course they did, they were hllegal.

:34:02.:34:07.

And the website also. But they were replaced by illegal shops. They were

:34:08.:34:13.

replaced by a market that is criminal. It is a responsible. The

:34:14.:34:19.

market increased among young people in Ireland for using these drugs

:34:20.:34:25.

from 16% of the population to 2 %. These are figures from the Duropean

:34:26.:34:31.

monitoring Centre for drug `buse. In Poland, the increase went up by 3%

:34:32.:34:36.

to stop we have now got the countries that have passed similar

:34:37.:34:38.

bills have the greatest use of psychoactive drugs in the world

:34:39.:34:46.

This will be counter-productive In 1971, we passed the misuse of drugs

:34:47.:34:50.

act. We then had 1000 addicts of cocaine and heroin in Britahn. We

:34:51.:34:57.

have now got 300,000. I wish members would consider the possibilhty that

:34:58.:35:00.

what they are doing, the iddas they have, that the conventional wisdom

:35:01.:35:04.

is the conventional stupidity. It would be madness to ban poppers as

:35:05.:35:10.

everyone says. This bill should be considered on the evidence `lone.

:35:11.:35:15.

Whilst we support the attempt to live cannabis into an area where

:35:16.:35:20.

scientists should work on it, that of an approach not based on

:35:21.:35:23.

superstition, rumour or prejudice but based on science. That should be

:35:24.:35:30.

supported. Thank you, I will be brief. I really wanted to elphasise

:35:31.:35:35.

that it is important, so many elements of this bill, but ht really

:35:36.:35:39.

is essential that it is strdngthened and strengthened in the field of

:35:40.:35:42.

education. New clause one rdally does address that. It does `nswer

:35:43.:35:47.

paragraph 76 of the Home Affairs Select Committee report, whhch says

:35:48.:35:50.

its excessive government spdnding on education on the dangers have been

:35:51.:35:54.

shockingly inadequate to date. Action must be taken now to educate

:35:55.:36:01.

young people. Therefore, thdre is a plea and recognition that there has

:36:02.:36:04.

been an absence of that education. This is not about politics, this is

:36:05.:36:08.

about evidence -based practhce and that is why I'm all for the

:36:09.:36:11.

government will support the new clause one. Who provides th`t

:36:12.:36:17.

education is also vital. Tr`ined professionals, school nurses, public

:36:18.:36:23.

health workers have other qualifications to deliver the

:36:24.:36:25.

programme for the base is not about putting more pressure on te`chers

:36:26.:36:28.

but enabling health professhonals to do their job. Therefore, I would ask

:36:29.:36:32.

the Minister to look at this issue with due consideration to m`ke sure

:36:33.:36:37.

that the full public health agenda is brought in, because the reality

:36:38.:36:41.

is if you do not couple this bill with public health, and the

:36:42.:36:47.

education agenda around that, its impact will be lessened. Thdrefore,

:36:48.:36:50.

really to make sure this bill has real impact and to make surd it does

:36:51.:36:55.

deliver the results, if we can put that education in and the only

:36:56.:37:00.

systematic way my last point -- the only systematic way of achidving

:37:01.:37:04.

this will be through the PSHE programme.

:37:05.:37:11.

I will be brief as well. I would like to thank the other members of

:37:12.:37:17.

the Bill committee. It was ly first bill committee experience.

:37:18.:37:22.

Ministers, the Shalaman is 's and other members of the committee, I

:37:23.:37:25.

felt it was very clear from that experience that everyone was

:37:26.:37:31.

pointing in one direction -, ministers, shadow and is is.

:37:32.:37:35.

Ultimately, we want to get to the same point. I would like to echo the

:37:36.:37:40.

comments of Mike honourable friend from Glasgow North East in support

:37:41.:37:44.

of the amendments proposed. I would like to echo the comments of a

:37:45.:37:47.

number of colleagues at the Bill committee stage. I raised the point

:37:48.:37:55.

around poppers. At that point it was made that we want a blanket ban how

:37:56.:38:02.

could we possibly have exemptions? There are exemptions within the

:38:03.:38:06.

Bill, there is a president to do this. The process that has been made

:38:07.:38:11.

to include an exemption and then have the study to continue that

:38:12.:38:15.

work, rather than banning it, having to do that and pick a mess that we

:38:16.:38:20.

would have to undo honour is a far more sensible approach. I would hope

:38:21.:38:24.

that the number of voices around the chamber, to that end, will hopefully

:38:25.:38:29.

reach the minister and tell us that that is a conclusion he has come to

:38:30.:38:33.

himself, and that is a position we will take. I don't want to take up

:38:34.:38:38.

too much time, I am very aw`re of the pressures and the keenndss to

:38:39.:38:42.

get onto the second group of amendments so, with that, I will

:38:43.:38:46.

conclude. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It has

:38:47.:38:49.

been said several times that perhaps this bill should have been brought

:38:50.:38:54.

forward a lot earlier, many years ago, and one of the reasons that it

:38:55.:38:57.

has not and was not as becatse it was so difficult. Can I say to my

:38:58.:39:03.

Liberal Democrat friend, whdn Lynne Featherstone was in my job, she was

:39:04.:39:09.

100% in support of this bill. I know it has been a tough time for the

:39:10.:39:14.

Liberal Democrats, but perh`ps she was right in many of the thhngs that

:39:15.:39:17.

she said and have been brought forward. I will not comment any

:39:18.:39:22.

further, we disagree profoundly and we will oppose the amendment is he

:39:23.:39:28.

will not be surprised. I want to get onto the second group, so I think it

:39:29.:39:33.

is important we make progress. However, there have been many, many

:39:34.:39:38.

very important speeches madd in the House this afternoon incompletely

:39:39.:39:44.

the right tone and attitude of what we are trying to do, protect people.

:39:45.:39:48.

All through committee, one of the things I try to make sure w`s to

:39:49.:39:52.

keep that at the forefront. We may disagree in specific parts, we have

:39:53.:39:57.

heard disagreements within the chamber today, we may slightly

:39:58.:40:04.

disagree on methodology but, at the end of the day, my responsibility as

:40:05.:40:07.

a minister standing up this dispatch botch with my other governmdnts

:40:08.:40:11.

colleagues who have worked closely with me, and I want some of them to

:40:12.:40:15.

work even more closely on the Bill and the review that we have

:40:16.:40:22.

committed to. So what I will try to do is speak to amendment ond, then

:40:23.:40:30.

try to take up some of the hssues taken up in other amendments, then

:40:31.:40:36.

come back if I can, to amendment five, poppers, I think that is what

:40:37.:40:39.

has taken up most time in the chamber and probably one of the only

:40:40.:40:47.

areas we slightly disagree on, and that will only be on how we do it

:40:48.:40:50.

rather than what we are going to do. Can I say at the set, Mr Deputy

:40:51.:40:59.

Speaker, this bill is, as I said, not a golden bullet. It is not the

:41:00.:41:03.

be all and end all. The leghslation of just saying this is a bl`nket

:41:04.:41:08.

ban, a brand-new type of legislation, we have not had that

:41:09.:41:11.

type of legislation before, and it needs to be worked through,

:41:12.:41:17.

particularly with two or three other departments, the Justice Department,

:41:18.:41:20.

obviously, because we are m`king it a criminal defence. I sit in that

:41:21.:41:24.

department so that is helpftl, the health Department, lots of the

:41:25.:41:31.

issues are to do with health, public health and the prevention of other

:41:32.:41:35.

diseases, in particular this could affect, and I will come back to

:41:36.:41:41.

that, but as amendment to ndw clause one indicates, particularly around

:41:42.:41:46.

education. One of the things I learned when I went to the Republic

:41:47.:41:50.

of Ireland and met with minhsters, scientists and Felice, as to how

:41:51.:41:54.

they are there, which is close to this but not identical, how it

:41:55.:41:58.

worked, one of the biggest things they said was you need to gdt it out

:41:59.:42:02.

there, you need to make surd that young people, but not exclusively

:42:03.:42:08.

young people, as we have discovered today, no disrespect to my

:42:09.:42:09.

honourable friend from radi`tor this is not all about young people,

:42:10.:42:15.

it is across the age profild, so I apologise if I refer to young people

:42:16.:42:20.

too often. I will give way, but I will not give away too much because

:42:21.:42:25.

we want to get onto the next group. I think we could learn from the

:42:26.:42:30.

Welsh schools liaison progr`mme which sees drug education awareness

:42:31.:42:34.

delivered in 97% of primary and secondary schools in Wales.

:42:35.:42:39.

With devolution, different governments in different parts of

:42:40.:42:43.

this great nation of ours are delivering. It is very earlx days. I

:42:44.:42:48.

fully respect that. Part of the review which I committed to was that

:42:49.:42:52.

we would look very carefullx as to not only how we have done it but

:42:53.:42:59.

other parts. And we will look to the Republic of Ireland as well. I know

:43:00.:43:03.

we discussed this at committee, and the Shadow men was in a verx deep

:43:04.:43:12.

learning curve at a time, I do think we can do it without the st`tutory

:43:13.:43:17.

requirements with in the legislation. The Shadow Minhster

:43:18.:43:25.

referred to ?118,000. The l`test figure we have is ?341 millhon on

:43:26.:43:31.

interventions and education, tackling drug misuse. A lot. ?3 1

:43:32.:43:41.

million. I accept, but at the start, that Frank isn't perfect.

:43:42.:43:47.

Absolutely. It needs to be hmproved. I don't want to just scrap something

:43:48.:43:50.

and bring something in with a different name. They need to work,

:43:51.:43:56.

very much so, with the Angelus Foundation and others, becatse the

:43:57.:44:01.

voluntary sector is often mtch better than Government, which is why

:44:02.:44:07.

the previous administration and this administration have used

:44:08.:44:09.

extensively, and we need to use them more. If I can possibly spe`k to a

:44:10.:44:18.

couple of the... If I can m`ke some progress, if I have time I will come

:44:19.:44:24.

back. I know from the speech made by my right honourable friend the

:44:25.:44:28.

member for Cheshire and and Amersham that there was concern is that

:44:29.:44:32.

non-Psychoactive Substances Bill would be brought into that. This is

:44:33.:44:38.

specifically about psychoactive substances. We would not be catching

:44:39.:44:46.

the type of products that the honourable lady has alluded to. We

:44:47.:44:52.

will keep a close eye. We h`ve an ability under clause three hn the

:44:53.:44:56.

bill to take things out. Th`t clause is not designed to bring thhngs in,

:44:57.:45:01.

which was slightly confusing during the course of the debate thhs

:45:02.:45:06.

afternoon. When I come onto poppers, I will explain that slightlx better.

:45:07.:45:09.

At the moment, I want to make regress if I can, then I will come

:45:10.:45:15.

back if I have time -- I want to make progress. I spoke with a

:45:16.:45:23.

professor from Kings last M`y to do with research. We need rese`rch not

:45:24.:45:30.

only within the help site btt with the law, to make sure we ard

:45:31.:45:34.

evidence base. -- spoke with a professor from Kings last nhght We

:45:35.:45:39.

need to make sure we are not preventing research. This bhll makes

:45:40.:45:46.

provision for that, one of the amendments was looking at the

:45:47.:45:50.

problems around cannabis, where we need to learn about the harls and

:45:51.:45:54.

the benefits. I will ask my officials to continue that dialogue

:45:55.:45:58.

when we leave the chamber. H think that is very important.

:45:59.:46:06.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I had a really, really interesting time... The

:46:07.:46:12.

honourable member has hopped away... During the committee stage, with the

:46:13.:46:16.

representative from the Scottish National party. In that we had a

:46:17.:46:21.

very good dialogue with the ministers in Scotland, parthcularly

:46:22.:46:26.

about one part of the bill which is a very, very important part, the

:46:27.:46:31.

only part of the bill where we are making possession a criminal

:46:32.:46:35.

offence, which is within secure facilities. That was at the request

:46:36.:46:44.

of the Justice Department and the request of the prison officdrs and

:46:45.:46:49.

other officers and from somd prisoner groups as well. It is a

:46:50.:46:54.

menace particularly within our prisons. And your defenders

:46:55.:46:57.

institutions. During this dhscussion is, which is why I was surprised

:46:58.:47:06.

that many wanted to take it away from the criminal justice, both the

:47:07.:47:12.

Scottish ministers and the Cabinet Secretary were both content that do

:47:13.:47:18.

have an offence of possession in custodial streets as part of the

:47:19.:47:24.

bill. I am not making comment on the Scottish administration, but we

:47:25.:47:27.

worked really, really hard to make sure everyone was on board, so as

:47:28.:47:33.

you imagine I cannot support the amendments that the Scottish

:47:34.:47:35.

National Party have put down. The key to this bill is protecthng

:47:36.:47:40.

people. I do not want to crhminalise every young person in the country or

:47:41.:47:44.

every person that has been tsing these products legally but

:47:45.:47:49.

dangerously for some considdrable time. But what is absolutelx

:47:50.:47:55.

crucial, Mr Deputy Speaker, is that we do not get into a situathon where

:47:56.:47:59.

the defence within the courts is I bought it for a couple of friends,

:48:00.:48:04.

sold it to them, what is thd danger? It is a danger.

:48:05.:48:09.

I give way. I am grateful. Hn that case, will he ensure that hd writes

:48:10.:48:14.

to me about the substances that formed my amendment to this bill so

:48:15.:48:17.

that I can reassure my constituents that they will not be breakhng the

:48:18.:48:21.

law if they continue to be on offer online?

:48:22.:48:26.

I am more than happy to write to my right honourable friend basdd on

:48:27.:48:32.

knowing exactly what the substances are, and I think there is a problem

:48:33.:48:36.

of communication that we nedd to have outside this chamber. H will

:48:37.:48:41.

give way, then I will curtahl my comment so that decisions of this

:48:42.:48:44.

house can be made and we can move on.

:48:45.:48:48.

I am grateful. It is just on the question of not wanting to

:48:49.:48:51.

criminalise, in particular, young people. The point made by the

:48:52.:48:56.

Scottish Nationalists spokesperson, is it a case that the bill will

:48:57.:49:01.

criminalise a young person who buys online from overseas but will not

:49:02.:49:05.

criminalise someone who buys in an alleyway from a criminal?

:49:06.:49:12.

Mr Deputy Speaker, we need to stop these products being available to

:49:13.:49:16.

young, old, middle-aged, old people like me. It is absolutely crucial

:49:17.:49:21.

that we do that. One of the ways, which we have heard in this chamber

:49:22.:49:26.

today, is online. We need to make sure that the criminal offence of

:49:27.:49:30.

someone selling it to someone else will be a criminal offence `nd have

:49:31.:49:34.

the penalties it deserves. There is no point having a blanket b`n that

:49:35.:49:39.

you don't act julienne forcd. I will not give way any mord, can I

:49:40.:49:44.

just touch on probably the lost emotive, understandably, and a very

:49:45.:49:51.

important part of this bill? Which is the amendment five which has been

:49:52.:49:56.

put down by the opposition `nd front bench in particular, the honourable

:49:57.:50:06.

lady for West Ham. I do not have any intent to make life difficult for

:50:07.:50:11.

any individual group. My sole role as a minister at this dispatch box

:50:12.:50:16.

is to protect. But when I fhrst looked at this bill and the

:50:17.:50:22.

proposals and clauses in thhs bill, one of the things I asked straight

:50:23.:50:27.

on is, OK, tell me about, and I knew very little about poppers, tell me

:50:28.:50:32.

about poppers? One of the fhrst things put in front of me, one of

:50:33.:50:37.

the first things, Mr Deputy Speaker, is that since 1993, these nhtrates

:50:38.:50:45.

have been mentioned 20 times on a death certificate. Now, if ly role

:50:46.:50:53.

is to protect, and if my role is to make sure this legislation does its

:50:54.:50:59.

job, I saw that. And then after that, and quite late on, to be fair,

:51:00.:51:04.

I started to listen to other groups, because it was the first tile that

:51:05.:51:08.

they had asked me. It had gone through the Lords, through committee

:51:09.:51:13.

stage, and at committee I offered to meet any group that wanted to see

:51:14.:51:17.

me, as I always do, groups that would be affected by the poppers ban

:51:18.:51:22.

came to see me and started to give evidence that, actually, it wasn't

:51:23.:51:24.

as dangerous as I was alludhng to. So with that in mind, Mr Deputy

:51:25.:51:36.

Speaker and can I pay tribute to my right honourable friend, for Golders

:51:37.:51:42.

Green, I went away and with the help of the Home Secretary and others,

:51:43.:51:47.

came up with what I think is a compromise. And it is a plan. I have

:51:48.:51:57.

different types of evidence as the honourable gentleman for Finchley

:51:58.:52:02.

and Golders Green said, but to me. Lets for once have an evidential

:52:03.:52:06.

base to it. Stage one which will start immediately after this,

:52:07.:52:11.

literally, has probably started in many ways, the M age are a will

:52:12.:52:23.

start evidence gathering. -, the MHRA. Stage two, once they have

:52:24.:52:30.

gathered it, there will be `n assessment by an independent, and I

:52:31.:52:33.

stress, independent assessor, and we will come to a common agreelent It

:52:34.:52:40.

will probably help with the select committee as to who those

:52:41.:52:43.

individuals are. We will do this with the Department of Health. This

:52:44.:52:48.

will not be Home Office led, it will be with the Department of Hdalth.

:52:49.:52:52.

And then, following that, then we can come forward with a dechsion

:52:53.:52:58.

which will be jointly made by the Secretary of State for Health and

:52:59.:53:03.

the Home Secretary, and then if necessary, we can use regul`tions in

:53:04.:53:08.

clause three for exemptions. Expect to do this by the summer recess A

:53:09.:53:13.

commitment that we will do this by summer recess. I know others in the

:53:14.:53:18.

House would like us to do whth the other way. I can't use closdly to do

:53:19.:53:23.

that. We'd have to amend thd bill. I think that a compromise. I think

:53:24.:53:28.

I've listened extensively across the House in the last couple of weeks

:53:29.:53:35.

and in the other House. I know this will be difficult for indivhduals. I

:53:36.:53:39.

fully respect their views btt I hope that everyone in the house holed

:53:40.:53:43.

respects that I am trying to do the right thing to protect people. Thank

:53:44.:53:50.

you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Shotld this clause be read a second timd, those

:53:51.:53:55.

in favour say I. Those against the No.

:53:56.:54:13.

Should this clause be read ` second time? The tellers for the noes art

:54:14.:54:23.

Sarah Newton and Guy Opperm`n. Order, order! That ayes to the

:54:24.:06:35.

right, 241, the noes to the left, 207. The eyes to the right, two and

:06:36.:06:45.

41, the noes to the left, 307. The noes habit, unlock.

:06:46.:06:48.

We continue clause two, frol which it will be convenient to consider on

:06:49.:06:53.

the selection paper. I call Lynne Brown. I rise to move

:06:54.:06:58.

new clause two, and in doing so praise the work of my honourable

:06:59.:07:02.

friend for Barrow in Furness and the local government Association. These

:07:03.:07:08.

new powers in clause to our combo ball to closure powers for premises

:07:09.:07:11.

serving alcohol under the lhcensing act 2003, and provide a helpful

:07:12.:07:17.

interim power for local authorities when premises notices have been

:07:18.:07:24.

ignored. I don't see why we should treat out that suspected of ignoring

:07:25.:07:32.

warnings to stop selling anx more gently than those suspected to sell

:07:33.:07:38.

alcohol illegally. Case Malthouse. I rise to speak to my amendlents two

:07:39.:07:45.

and three, the first of which is to deal with a small anomaly in the

:07:46.:07:48.

bill, the second to do with something more fundamental. It is

:07:49.:07:54.

already access to that the selling of Psychoactive Substances Bill

:07:55.:07:58.

children is a he crime which should attract an aggravated sentence, and

:07:59.:08:07.

it contains and... Informathon that selling outside of a school should

:08:08.:08:12.

issue an aggravated sentencd. It even more vulnerable or those who

:08:13.:08:15.

live in children's homes, and I want to make it an aggravated offence to

:08:16.:08:21.

sell outside a children's home. The Government is keen to rely on

:08:22.:08:25.

sentencing guidelines to brhng these measures in, but the question arises

:08:26.:08:29.

as to whether we should havd any aggravating factors at all. The

:08:30.:08:32.

truth is that these provisions measured those exactly in the 1 71

:08:33.:08:38.

misuse of drugs act, and as far as I can see that is the only re`son why

:08:39.:08:42.

children's homes are being dxcluded from the act. I would asked to

:08:43.:08:46.

consider the logic of selling them outside of children's homes,

:08:47.:08:51.

alongside schools. I am seeking to make an aggravated offence to sell

:08:52.:08:55.

these substances to anybody and 18. The law for the protection of

:08:56.:09:00.

children in this country is patchy, elderly and confused. In particular,

:09:01.:09:06.

it does not privileged children as a group against him committing a crime

:09:07.:09:09.

is particularly serious. We privilege lots of groups, those of a

:09:10.:09:15.

religious faith, particular ethnicity or sexuality that if a

:09:16.:09:17.

crime is committed against them because of who they are, th`t is

:09:18.:09:22.

more serious insensitive and -- sentencing terms. Children `re not

:09:23.:09:29.

among that group. I would lhke to make the sale to anyone unddr 1 a

:09:30.:09:34.

more serious offence in the eyes of a judge and to attract more serious

:09:35.:09:38.

sentence. I do this in the hope that any future criminal Justice Bill

:09:39.:09:43.

which appears or sentencing Bill, we can do what this house did hn 2 12

:09:44.:09:48.

when it made the transgender community and aggravated fe`ture,

:09:49.:09:55.

that any offence against thdm attracted a stiffer sentencd, we

:09:56.:09:59.

could do the same for children. It is time we focused on some dlderly

:10:00.:10:02.

children's legislation and brought it up to date, the first stdp being

:10:03.:10:09.

sending a signal to the courts and to the public in general th`t we see

:10:10.:10:12.

children as worthy of speci`l protection.

:10:13.:10:17.

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Many apologies for the confusion, I

:10:18.:10:22.

thought this was coming latdr. If I can just speak really briefly, I am

:10:23.:10:27.

grateful to yourself for having allocated time for this and I would

:10:28.:10:33.

just impress upon the Government that they ought to consider this as

:10:34.:10:38.

an extra act of protection. I think it is a really good step forward

:10:39.:10:41.

that we are bringing in the blanket ban which, for many on both sides of

:10:42.:10:48.

the house, we have been calling for for some time. But there is a

:10:49.:10:52.

significant gap between being able to decide that the police all local

:10:53.:10:59.

authority, seeing that the substances are being traded, and

:11:00.:11:02.

then being able to apply for a court order and get a court order granted.

:11:03.:11:07.

This amendment would simply allow an interim ban to be placed whhle the

:11:08.:11:12.

court order is heard. And if it turned out to be misplaced, there

:11:13.:11:16.

could be a conversation of some kind, but it gave communitids the

:11:17.:11:19.

extra protection they need `nd deserve in these circumstances.

:11:20.:11:25.

Thank you, and I apologise that my comments will have to be sure to

:11:26.:11:33.

because of the time. Can I speak to amendment two, I fully understand

:11:34.:11:40.

where we are coming from. I believe that the judicial oversight is very

:11:41.:11:43.

important. The gentleman totched on the fact that we have to colpensate

:11:44.:11:48.

if we get it wrong. I don't want to get it wrong. I believe we can get

:11:49.:11:52.

it in the courts quickly, and we do that within other business on the

:11:53.:11:56.

courts quickly, to get judgds to make that decision. Two amendments

:11:57.:12:02.

two and three, I also fully understand the logic why under the

:12:03.:12:10.

old legislation, in the 1970 act, we specifically designate schools, that

:12:11.:12:16.

is because of the Misuse Of Drugs Act 1971. I absolutely agred that we

:12:17.:12:22.

should bring legislation up to date, I believe the sentencing cotncil is

:12:23.:12:26.

that place in a modern democracy, but I must reiterate that under

:12:27.:12:33.

section 125 in brackets one of the corridors and Justice act, courts

:12:34.:12:38.

are under the same obligations to consider aggregated factors, whether

:12:39.:12:47.

they are in this bill. Sadlx, while they fully understand both sections

:12:48.:12:51.

of the changes of the bill, sadly, on this occasion, I think wd need to

:12:52.:12:57.

go with the bill as drafted. The question is that new cl`use two

:12:58.:13:01.

be read a second time, as m`ny of that opinion say aye. The country

:13:02.:13:03.

no. Division! Clear the lobby! Order, the question is that new

:13:04.:14:28.

clause two... The question hs that new clause two be read a second

:14:29.:14:32.

time, as many of that opinion say aye? The country no? The tellers for

:14:33.:14:38.

the ayes, Sue Haven and Rae Morris, and for the nose... -- noes...

:14:39.:22:38.

Order, order! The ayes to the right, 227, the noes to the left, 306. The

:22:39.:26:03.

ayes to the right, 227, the noes to the left, 306. The noes habht.

:26:04.:26:11.

Locke. -- the noes have it. And the order of the House, I must put the

:26:12.:26:16.

questions necessary to bring to a conclusion all the remaining

:26:17.:26:26.

proceedings. The question is that amendment 14 be made as manx of that

:26:27.:26:32.

opinion say aye, to the contrary, No. Division!

:26:33.:27:51.

The question is that amendmdnt 4 be made, those of that opinion say aye,

:27:52.:27:57.

to the contrary, No. Order! Order! The ayes to the right,

:27:58.:34:47.

47. The noes to the left, 307. The ayes to the right, 47, the noes

:34:48.:37:39.

to the left, 307. The noes habit, the noes have it. Unlock.

:37:40.:37:46.

Minister to move government amendment 69. The question hs that

:37:47.:37:52.

government amendment six to nine be made, as many of that opinion say

:37:53.:37:58.

aye, in country no? The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Colin Brown to

:37:59.:38:03.

move on amendment five. The question is that amendment five be m`de. As

:38:04.:38:13.

many of that opinion say ayd, as many not that opinion say no.

:38:14.:38:16.

Division! Clear the lobbies Order! Order! The question hs that

:38:17.:40:15.

amendment five be made, as lany of that opinion say aye, the country

:40:16.:40:23.

no. The ayes, Sue Haven and Rae Morris, the noes, Sue Haven and guy.

:40:24.:46:21.

Order! Order! The ayes to the right 228, the noes to the right... Left

:46:22.:49:29.

309. The ayes to the right, 228, the noes

:49:30.:49:37.

to the left, 309. The noes habit, the noes habit. Unlock.

:49:38.:49:45.

Minister to move amendments ten and 11. The question is the govdrnment

:49:46.:49:51.

amendment to ten and 11 be lade as many of that opinion say ayd, the

:49:52.:49:58.

country no? The ayes have it, the ayes have it. We now come to the

:49:59.:50:02.

consideration which has been completed in the reading. The

:50:03.:50:06.

question is that the ministdr is now about to move, I understand? Link

:50:07.:50:11.

you very much indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the outset of mx closing

:50:12.:50:15.

remarks at third reading, this has been an experience. I fully

:50:16.:50:21.

understand why previous minhsters and previous governments looked long

:50:22.:50:27.

and hard at this bill, even though it was desperately needed, dven

:50:28.:50:31.

though there was a lot of t`lk, and it didn't go very far. From the

:50:32.:50:36.

outset, can I commend the work done by the Liberal Democrat minhsters on

:50:37.:50:40.

the previous administration, of Norman Baker and Lynne Featherstone,

:50:41.:50:44.

who were very much in the driving seat in the bill in preparing it to

:50:45.:50:48.

come forward and, actually, in many ways, I would like to have seen the

:50:49.:50:53.

bill come forward in the prdvious session, sorry, the previous

:50:54.:50:56.

parliament, not least it wotld not have been me at the dispatch box

:50:57.:51:01.

having to do so much! This `s an enormously important tool. Ht is not

:51:02.:51:06.

perfect but it is an awful lot better than we had before -, this is

:51:07.:51:12.

an enormously important bill. It has some minor, and I say mine,

:51:13.:51:15.

amendments that need to be `ddressed in the other house. Mr Speaker, in

:51:16.:51:27.

2014, there are 129 deaths hn Great Britain that the use of psychoactive

:51:28.:51:33.

substances was implicated in. On the day that I announce that thhs bill

:51:34.:51:36.

was going to come through, H took a call from a journalist in Scotland,

:51:37.:51:42.

from Falkirk. Wanted a commdnt as to why I was doing it. And as H started

:51:43.:51:47.

to talk to him, he actually said to me, there was a gentleman and a lady

:51:48.:51:53.

in the area of Falkirk who had been to a head shop a couple of days

:51:54.:51:57.

before and bought what they thought were safe, legal project...

:51:58.:52:05.

Products, within hours he w`s dead and she was seriously, seriously

:52:06.:52:09.

injured. I hope she has madd a full recovery, I passionately do. I am

:52:10.:52:14.

conscious that we should not any more ever talk about a legal high

:52:15.:52:23.

which is safe, or legal, or any other measure. If you take `

:52:24.:52:27.

substance, you have to realhse the dangers involved, and the education

:52:28.:52:31.

part of this, which I know the Shadow Minister wanted us to be

:52:32.:52:33.

strong on, we were were continuously on. -- we will work continuously on.

:52:34.:52:41.

I thank the tone and the wax that this bill has been brought forward

:52:42.:52:45.

quite speedily, as the chair of the select committee alluded to. There

:52:46.:52:50.

was speedy work done by the select committee, speedy work done on the

:52:51.:52:55.

Bill committee but, can I s`y, thank you to all members of the Bhll

:52:56.:52:59.

committee. Some members of the committee had never taken a bill

:53:00.:53:03.

through a Bill committee, particularly from the Scotthsh

:53:04.:53:06.

National Party, and I pay tribute to the attitude and way that w`s done.

:53:07.:53:12.

Can I also pay tribute to the devolved administration. Thhs bill

:53:13.:53:17.

covers the whole of the United Kingdom. It is a very, very

:53:18.:53:21.

important bill in the way wd have done it. In particular I want to pay

:53:22.:53:27.

tribute to my honourable frhend for Finchley and would Green. Bdcause

:53:28.:53:31.

there was no intent ever in this bill to make it difficult for any

:53:32.:53:35.

individual or any groups. What we wanted to do and what I was

:53:36.:53:40.

passionate about was to makd it safe in this country and we got `way from

:53:41.:53:45.

the concept that something that was thought to be fun would be safe and

:53:46.:53:48.

at the end of the day would take your life or the life of yotr loved

:53:49.:53:55.

ones. My team, led by my Bill manager, have done excellent work as

:53:56.:53:59.

well. It pays to bid to the work done before I was the Minister to

:54:00.:54:06.

make it pays tribute, because of the background information and the way

:54:07.:54:08.

we have understood that this bill could work. It's absolutely right

:54:09.:54:12.

that the bill that this was similar to is not identical to the one

:54:13.:54:16.

introduced some years ago in the Republic of Ireland because we have

:54:17.:54:19.

learned from some mistakes lade there. And they are looking closely

:54:20.:54:25.

at us now. Could I say also, Mr Deputy Speaker, that there `re other

:54:26.:54:28.

countries around the world, we not alone in having our communities

:54:29.:54:33.

blighted by these products. Around the world, other countries `re

:54:34.:54:37.

trying to see what they can do. I've got a minister next week from far

:54:38.:54:41.

away coming to talk to me and saying, how have you done this, can

:54:42.:54:46.

we help you, so we can introduce similar things? Can I say there was

:54:47.:54:54.

one major amendment, Mr Deptty Speaker, I hope it works very fast.

:54:55.:55:00.

And that was the government amendment on possession within

:55:01.:55:03.

custodial premises, in other words, in prison and other such

:55:04.:55:09.

establishments. This was repuested, not by me, but the prisons linister.

:55:10.:55:15.

He requested it because he had prison governors around the country,

:55:16.:55:19.

the prison officers union and others, saying, this is out of hand

:55:20.:55:24.

in prisons, we need help. A lot of people said there was legislation

:55:25.:55:28.

that could have been used. Ht's absolutely implicit, on the face of

:55:29.:55:32.

this bill, that possession within prison or other custodial premises,

:55:33.:55:39.

it is a criminal offence. Nobody wanted to criminalise everyone in

:55:40.:55:45.

possession, within these institutions it is important and I

:55:46.:55:49.

hope that works really quickly, along with four incidents the

:55:50.:55:52.

cameras being trialled in prisons now to prevent assaults on staff. Mr

:55:53.:55:58.

Deputy Speaker, I am enormotsly proud to have brought this bill

:55:59.:56:03.

through. I think it will save lives, as a father, I can only imagine what

:56:04.:56:07.

others have gone through th`t have had their loved ones taken `way from

:56:08.:56:12.

them or badly damaged. I panicked like hell when my daughters went to

:56:13.:56:17.

university, they really sensible, they understood everything but they

:56:18.:56:19.

could easily have been dragged into this situation that this was safe.

:56:20.:56:24.

It was not safe and we have now made sure that everyone knows th`t. The

:56:25.:56:29.

question is that the bill bd read a third time. Labour's 2015 m`nifesto

:56:30.:56:40.

included a commitment to ban the sale of psychoactive substances We

:56:41.:56:43.

believe that a blanket ban with listed exceptions is the most

:56:44.:56:47.

effective means of beginning to tackle the serious public hdalth

:56:48.:56:50.

problem these drugs have brought about and that is why we on these

:56:51.:56:53.

benches support the bill. Wd have not agreed with the governmdnt on

:56:54.:56:57.

every detail of the bill but we have been united in wanting the lost

:56:58.:57:01.

effective legislation possible to tackle the scourge of these

:57:02.:57:05.

dangerous substances and to curb the criminal fraternity who are pushing

:57:06.:57:10.

them on our young people. I am greatly disappointed that the

:57:11.:57:23.

government has chosen not to place Poppers on the exemptions lhst. I

:57:24.:57:25.

believe this will undermine the bill and police users of Poppers,

:57:26.:57:28.

especially men who have sex with men, at greater risk of harl. In

:57:29.:57:30.

spite of our support for thd general approach of the bill we do not

:57:31.:57:33.

believe that this legislation alone will tackle the issue. Marion

:57:34.:57:36.

Stewart, an amazing woman, said in May, no law can offer the pdrfect

:57:37.:57:41.

solution to protect people from drugs. It is equally vital that we

:57:42.:57:47.

concentrate our efforts on laking the public, young people in

:57:48.:57:50.

particular, more aware of the harms of these substances in schools,

:57:51.:57:55.

universities, and during festivals. I couldn't agree more. Sadlx, the

:57:56.:58:00.

government doesn't seem to `gree that a comprehensive educathon and

:58:01.:58:04.

awareness strategy needs to go alongside the measures cont`ined in

:58:05.:58:07.

this bill. That is the trulx only way that we would effectively reduce

:58:08.:58:12.

demand and thereby make measures controlling supply easier and more

:58:13.:58:15.

effective. I would like to thank the honourable member for Redditch for

:58:16.:58:19.

working closely with me on this bill. His insights into the public

:58:20.:58:24.

health aspects of the legislation have been invaluable. It has been a

:58:25.:58:28.

pleasure to work with him. H would like to thank the Minister, the

:58:29.:58:32.

Honourable member for Hemel Hempstead the spirit of co-operation

:58:33.:58:36.

he has shown throughout the passage of the bill, his humour, and the

:58:37.:58:40.

SNP, who have been great to work with, this has been my first one and

:58:41.:58:44.

it has been really good to have them alongside. This legislation was

:58:45.:58:49.

introduced in the other place and I want to be attributed to thd

:58:50.:58:53.

excellent work done by my L`bour Party colleagues there, in

:58:54.:58:57.

particular the noble lord Lord Ross, who led on the bill for the Labour

:58:58.:59:01.

Party. My colleagues in the other place of instrumental in improving

:59:02.:59:05.

the bill by securing more comprehensive exceptions for

:59:06.:59:08.

academic and medical research. And I am convinced that the input from the

:59:09.:59:13.

Labour side of the House has made a difference to this bill. In

:59:14.:59:17.

conclusion, Mr Deputy Speakdr, if the House is divided tonight we will

:59:18.:59:28.

vote for the bill before us. Expert advice from Ireland suggests that a

:59:29.:59:30.

blanket ban is the most effdctive means of beginning to tackld the

:59:31.:59:33.

most pernicious industry of psychoactive substances. We

:59:34.:59:36.

committed to banning them in our manifesto and I believe this bill is

:59:37.:59:41.

a good first step in our battle to protect the public and our children

:59:42.:59:45.

from serious adult risks and harms that these dangerous drugs present.

:59:46.:59:50.

However the fight against the harms brought about by new psycho`ctive

:59:51.:59:54.

substances is only just beghnning and I will continue to work for

:59:55.:59:57.

better education and awarendss in this country as the fight continues.

:59:58.:00:05.

, I'd just echo the words of post frontbenchers about the project has

:00:06.:00:10.

been to work with them on this bill -- both frontbenchers. It h`s come

:00:11.:00:14.

as a bit of a rude shock to find complete consensus and no dhvisions

:00:15.:00:18.

and has a medical has sat on a social care committee and the last

:00:19.:00:22.

Parliament are not used to such committees! Like a No ten bts, to

:00:23.:00:27.

have three in a row, I would, if you don't mind because two of mx

:00:28.:00:30.

colleagues want to speak and we will finish on time. I just want to say

:00:31.:00:36.

two things. It is unfortunate, although I do not in any wax

:00:37.:00:40.

denigrate the importance of the subject, it is a shame we h`ve spent

:00:41.:00:44.

some time today discussing `mendment five around Poppers. All th`t I will

:00:45.:00:49.

say about that is that it is a hugely important issue. We need to

:00:50.:00:54.

get it resolved and move on quickly. I really appreciate what thd

:00:55.:00:57.

minister said about immediately and buy some and I have written those

:00:58.:01:01.

things on my notes and as hhs former PPS he knows I will hold hil to

:01:02.:01:06.

that! There has been huge interest in this subject in the Housd since

:01:07.:01:12.

I've been here in 2010. Questions, Westminster Hall debates, prime

:01:13.:01:15.

ministers questions in the last Parliament led to it being hn, I

:01:16.:01:19.

believe, both manifestos at the general election and here wd are

:01:20.:01:23.

today with it almost done. Why is this important? I want to rdturn to

:01:24.:01:29.

an 18-year-old who died in ly constituency at a music festival

:01:30.:01:33.

having fun. She had everythhng to live for, she was an army c`det a

:01:34.:01:39.

Duke of Edinburgh Gold award winner but for ?40, her life was gone. Her

:01:40.:01:43.

dad said at the inquest, I `lways imagined that if any harm c`me to

:01:44.:01:48.

her it would be on a bungee jump or canoeing down a river or an accident

:01:49.:01:52.

on a mountain, nothing like this. She was so sensible, it is `n

:01:53.:01:58.

absolute tragedy for this f`mily, one act of stupidity that h`s

:01:59.:02:01.

destroyed us. That really does say it all as to why we are herd. NPS,

:02:02.:02:08.

as they are currently, are notoriously difficult to iddntify.

:02:09.:02:12.

They currently have to be rdgulated on a substance by substance, group

:02:13.:02:15.

by group races because of the diversity and the speed at which

:02:16.:02:20.

they are developed to replace drugs that are controlled under the 1 71

:02:21.:02:27.

act. For me, the cruellest danger of so-called legal highs that H have

:02:28.:02:30.

seen so often sold at festivals that I attended with my friends `nd this

:02:31.:02:34.

summer with my family, as h`rmless fun. They are anything but. Do I

:02:35.:02:42.

think the bill addresses thd problem? I believe so because it is

:02:43.:02:46.

the blanket ban that we prolised, it is one that we have been crxing out

:02:47.:02:50.

for, campaigned for the manx years, the current response in Hampshire,

:02:51.:02:56.

where I represent, is built around reducing demand, restricting supply

:02:57.:03:01.

and the use of trading standards. Hampshire trading standards have

:03:02.:03:05.

tried everything. They have been unable to is excessively secure a

:03:06.:03:12.

prosecution using existing legislation to regulate head shops,

:03:13.:03:18.

they fall under anti-social association where it can be

:03:19.:03:21.

associated with the problem. It does not take a genius to work ott is to

:03:22.:03:26.

macro that this is fiddling while Rome burns. All good work btt we

:03:27.:03:32.

have been tidying hands behhnd backs and now we nearly have the

:03:33.:03:37.

legislation. I mentioned he`d shops. There was one, at a second reading

:03:38.:03:41.

it was still there, there w`s one on Stockport Road in my constituency,

:03:42.:03:46.

it was closed down last month to anti-social behaviour legislation.

:03:47.:03:50.

My hope is, as has happened in Ireland, that this will lead to the

:03:51.:03:53.

end of many more of those hdad shops. Having approved the bill as

:03:54.:04:00.

it has gone to the House, is that the committee, we introduced new

:04:01.:04:09.

legislation under clause ond and I believe that is crucial, and I share

:04:10.:04:15.

a great deal of hope that that will make a big difference. Therd is a

:04:16.:04:19.

huge problem in the secure state right now and we have a

:04:20.:04:23.

responsibility to tackle it. In conclusion, Mr Deputy Speakdr, I

:04:24.:04:26.

think this is a very good bhll, it has been a long time coming. It has

:04:27.:04:30.

been a pleasure to play even a small part in it, as a manifesto

:04:31.:04:34.

commitment, we are getting on with delivering that manifesto. We are

:04:35.:04:38.

here to do no harm and do as much good began, I think. And I think,

:04:39.:04:42.

unbalanced, although it is not perfect, this bill is a giant leap

:04:43.:04:46.

in that direction -- on bal`nce Thank you. Thank you, Mr Deputy

:04:47.:04:53.

Speaker, I will be brief. I will congratulate all those involved in

:04:54.:04:56.

bringing this bill forward hncluding the government, the minister,

:04:57.:04:59.

everyone will agree that he has been very willing to engage in open and

:05:00.:05:03.

robust debate about various different points in this, the

:05:04.:05:07.

Scottish Government, who have supported the ethos behind this

:05:08.:05:11.

bill. The committees involvdd in it and our colleagues and the Labour

:05:12.:05:15.

benches. Although I was not on the committee it is the second bill have

:05:16.:05:19.

been closely involved with, and it has been a pleasure to work

:05:20.:05:23.

alongside Labour colleagues on a number of issues. It is cle`r that

:05:24.:05:28.

an of these substances are dangerous and we are letting this message get

:05:29.:05:33.

out there now. They are also unpredictable. There is no way of

:05:34.:05:37.

knowing what is and what people are buying. No way of predicting the

:05:38.:05:41.

impact on the individual. In the last debate in this House t`lked

:05:42.:05:47.

about somebody I know who took one thing, made one foolish mistake aged

:05:48.:05:52.

17, a talented young medical student, a beautiful girl who spent

:05:53.:05:56.

the rest of her life and is still in a locked psychiatric ward bdcause of

:05:57.:06:00.

the impact because you can never predict how it will impact xou. I

:06:01.:06:06.

have some remaining concerns, particularly on things like poppers.

:06:07.:06:13.

i look forward to the review. differentiating between people who

:06:14.:06:17.

buy from the internet and others who buy from a dealer in a dark alley.

:06:18.:06:23.

that is remaining concern md. i understand that the minister has

:06:24.:06:26.

said that this is not the intention behind that part of the bill. i

:06:27.:06:30.

accepted is not the intention and i will just quote him, the sphrit of

:06:31.:06:37.

the bill is that we do not want to criminalise individuals for

:06:38.:06:40.

possession. Possession is not an offence under any part of the

:06:41.:06:45.

legislation, and purchasing would be legal so there would be no

:06:46.:06:47.

illegality on the part of the individual. If I am allowed to take

:06:48.:06:51.

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