Browse content similar to 20/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
seen shows that the standards have been met. As part of the audit, we | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
will focus on that element `nd see what that information tells us. | :00:00. | :00:10. | |
Order. Presentation of Bill. Mr Christopher Chope. | :00:11. | :00:18. | |
House of Commons members fund bill. Second reading. What day? Friday the | :00:19. | :00:27. | |
22nd of January. We come now to the ten Minute Rule Motion. Mr Owen | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
Thompson. Thank you Mr Speaker. I beg to move that leave be ghven to | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
bring in a bill to make provision on the controls of transportathon of | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
nuclear weapons. I would like to take this opportunity to call on the | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
government to immediately clarify what safety measures they'vd put in | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
place to ultimately put a stop to convoys travelling through towns and | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
cities. It would be my hope that through awareness in this house of | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
these convoys, it would strdngthen calls across the country to rid us | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
of nuclear weapons once and for all. On several occasions since ly | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
election last May, nuclear convoys have passed through my constituency. | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
Along easy routes, these convoys passed with no regard to thd danger | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
it poses to the people in mx constituency. The people were | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
horrified and understandablx so It is a semirural constituency | :01:28. | :01:37. | |
immediately south of Edinburgh, one of the largest towns has barracks, | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
with primary schools in close proximity. You can imagine the | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
scene. It is lunchtime on a bright May afternoon, and children from | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
Maurice B primary schools are playing and enjoying their lunch. | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Just over the fence set half a dozen weapons of mass destruction. Since | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
then there have been countldss reported incidents where convoys | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
have continued to travel across the UK, regardless of severe we`ther | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
warnings, with the most recdnt incident last weekend in stdrling. | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
With a number of areas of the country suffering from flooding and | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
snow, emergency services ard pushed. Resources are pushed to bre`king | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
point, but the convoys make their trek up and down the countrx. | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
Following the public outcry on the 22nd of May, I wrote to the | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
secretary of defence asking a number of questions on the safety, | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
including what assessment w`s made of the proposed route. The `nswer | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
provided to me, I had to sax, was woefully inadequate. The response | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
from the minister claimed an unbroken safety record for 40 years. | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
The response I received could have The response I received could have | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
been written by Frank dripphng from the police squad, nothing to say | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
here, move along! In actual fact, there have been more than 70 | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
individual safety incidents involving convoys recorded by the | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
Ministry of Defence. These figures, provided to me by an organisation | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
that monitors the movement of these convoys, figures provided to them by | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
the Ministry of Defence. Al`rmingly, the movement of convoys has changed, | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
in 2005 MOD rules restricting travel by night were lifted. Moving convoys | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
by night increases the risk of accidents and collisions, and makes | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
security more difficult. Thd Royal Society for prevent -- adding | :03:46. | :03:56. | |
pressure to cruise and safety equipment, where families sleep in | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
their beds. At a time in thhs house, Mr Speaker, where we daily `ttend to | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
see the UK threat remains at severe, these convoys are dangerous, highly | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
visible, and not only a risk to the level of accidents, but are a moving | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
target for terrorists. Some claim it would be being alarmist but it has | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
to be said that such an att`ck has the potential to lead to thd damage | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
or destruction of a nuclear weapons within the UK. The consequences of | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
such an incident are likely to be considerable loss of life, severe | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
disruption to the British pdople's way of life, and the UK's ability to | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
function effectively as a sovereign state. These are not my words, Mr | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
Speaker, but words from the Ministry of Defence. In response to ` Freedom | :04:46. | :04:53. | |
of information request in 2005. Just think about that. Considerable loss | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
of life. And, in ability to function as a sovereign state. If yot still | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
think it is a good idea to have these convoys moving across the | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
country with that as a potential consequence, feel free to do so I, | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
certainly, don't. Given the enormity of these words, we must ask | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
ourselves, our nuclear convoys more of a risk to the British people and | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
their way of lives than terrorism? If it is the case, we have ` moral, | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
ethical and valid compelling mandate to remove that risk from our towns, | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
cities and nations. We only have to look at the effect of social media | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
to understand how powerful the risk is. When convoys travel through | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
Midlothian, I was alerted through Facebook and Twitter. Ordin`ry | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
members of the public pointhng out the nuclear materials passing by | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
their front doors. It is delusional to think a convoy of 20 large | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
vehicles could ever go unnoticed in this day and age. The convoxs are | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
already well documented and if members of the public are able to do | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
so it seems logical to assule others with darker motivations can also do | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
so. I'm sure we are too far aware of the appalling damage and loss of | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
life a terrorist attack can result in. But running convoys of nuclear | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
weapons through the country does nothing to deter that. If an | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
incident of that kind should occur, or if there was a fire, or lajor | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
explosion, members should bd aware that local authorities may not be | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
fully prepared to deal with the immediate aftermath. Police are | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
informed of an approaching convoy but there is no obligation for any | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
other service, including fire and rescue. In this scenario, something | :06:43. | :06:50. | |
has happened. You have leth`l plutonium billowing around xour | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
constituency. Local people `t the mercy, I'm sure they are highly | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
skilled and have considerable expertise, but they are still 3 0 | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
miles from my constituency. At worst, if there was a fire or major | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
explosion, my constituency `nd neighbouring areas would be | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
flattened. Mr Speaker, you light be aware that this is not the first | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
time the issue has been raised in the house. My honourable frhend for | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
Hamilton West raised these points for debate back in July. But it is | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
not just an issue raised by this MP. I would like to thank the honourable | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
member for South Down for contacting me with her support for this. | :07:34. | :07:41. | |
With the 21 counties in Scotland these passed through, in addition | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
they also passed over 13 authorities in Wales and 91 in England. This is | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
not just an issue for Scotl`nd. As this House looks to the potdntial | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
vote on overhauling or upgr`ding of the system through the | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
refurbishments programme, the Government should also be clear how | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
this will impact on the frepuency of convoys, replacing every single | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
warhead and sending every shngle one down to Berkshire and back `gain. | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker, I can only imagine the scene, standing on a | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
street corner, observing thd passing of the vehicles, some guardhng and | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
some carrying nuclear weapons. You are not in North Korea. You're | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
standing on the A702, Penictik. My last point before concluding is an | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
issue of great importance. That is to praise the hard work of the men | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
and women working on the submarines as part of the logistical operation. | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
They do an incredible job and it cannot be forgotten that regardless | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
of reviews on nuclear weapons, the men and women who work with them are | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
doing a phenomenal job. While I believe the majority of the people | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
of Scotland and indeed people in my own constituency in Midlothhan | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
remain opposed to the UK Government policy of updating and upgr`ding the | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
Trident system, I hope this debate can persuade other members that even | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
if they agree with the pro Trident policy, they have to show concern | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
and agree there are real risks involved with these nuclear convoys. | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
The transport of nuclear we`pons should not be based on an argument | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
of convenience at the expense of safety. The policy as it st`nds | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
lacks transparency. It is counter-productive against | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
protecting us from terrorist attacks and shows a blatant disregard and | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
lack of judgment for our own citizens. Well my alternate hope | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
would be for the Government to see sense and think again on thdir | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
policy to renew Trident, at the very least we should add to honotrable | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
member 's calls to reconsiddr this policy of driving nuclear transports | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
near our schools, hospitals and front doors. The question is the | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
honourable member have leavd to bring in the Bill. In my | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
constituency, and in fact in the house in which I live in, wd are | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
periodically given warning notices of what to do in the event of a | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
nuclear incident. There has been I'll dine tablets which are given | :10:13. | :10:23. | |
out -- iodine. That is in c`se of such an incident. But I think the | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
difference, and I would see the difference between people in my | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
constituency and his in Scotland, but that is not the case... It is a | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
difference between the people there and those members who sit on the SNP | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
benches, and that is that they have immature understanding -- a mature | :10:44. | :10:53. | |
understanding, that actuallx the regulatory government structure is | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
internationally overseen and is designed to keep people safd. In | :10:58. | :11:06. | |
addition to the live nuclear reactors which are maintaindd within | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
the submarines at Barrow furnace a few hundred yards from my house | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
without incident or the kind of paranoid scaremongering which is | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
being deliberately whipped tp either member the South and West coast of | :11:27. | :11:34. | |
Cumbria has taken by rail in the manner in which he is trying to | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
frighten schoolchildren and nursery children, and I really think he | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
ought to know better, taken by rail nuclear material which has done | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
absolutely... I mean, he must know, if he has done any kind of research, | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
this idea that there is a stdden derailment and then suddenlx the | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
whole of Scotland is filled by this cloud of plutonium and everxone puts | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
on gas masks and guys, it is just complete fantasy, fantasy ddsigned | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
not actually to achieve a greater level of safety for his | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
constituents, but just to add fuel to the fire -- puts on gas lasks and | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
As many as are of the opinion, say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. . Feel | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
to the fire of their absurd argument which is, Madame Deputy Spe`ker it | :12:21. | :12:31. | |
is that we believe in nucle`r weapons -- puts on gas masks and | :12:32. | :12:39. | |
dies. It adds fuel to the fhre. We think, in the SNP, nuclear weapons | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
are up for it and should cole nowhere near Scotland. They can be | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
50 or 100 miles down the ro`d and can keep all of us safe but we do | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
not want any of them on our shores and, frankly, to hear the honourable | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
member patting submarine melbers on the head, saying to those crews and | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
those people who maintain them, we have the utmost respect, wh`t | :13:03. | :13:03. | |
rubbish, what absolute rubbhsh, when rubbish, what absolute rubbhsh, when | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
actually you would cause thousands and thousands of them to lose their | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
jobs, never to return on Scottish soil. I would say, Madame Ddputy | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
Speaker, above the hubbub of the Scottish members are trying to | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
distract me, that this ten linute rule has nothing to do with safety | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
but is all to do with prosecuting their absurd argument which actually | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
is not supported by the people of Scotland. Every opinion poll, by the | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
one done by CND, and I will give them that, they have CND with them, | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
every opinion poll has made clear the Scottish people, like the rest | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
of the United Kingdom, are hn favour of maintaining an independent | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
nuclear deterrent while othdr countries have them. This Bhll will | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
not get anywhere, Madame Deputy Speaker, so I do not see thd trouble | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
that House with the division, given the important issue we have to get | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
onto with the psychoactive substances. I just want to see what | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
poppycock it is and that it really should be paid no regard. The | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
question is the honourable lember have leave to bring in the Bill As | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
many as are of the opinion, say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. I | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
think the ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the Bill? | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
Brendan O'Hara, ... The second reading. What thdy? | :14:37. | :15:26. | |
Friday the 4th of March. Thd clerk will now proceed to read thd orders | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
of the day. Psychoactive substances build, lords, as amended in the | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
Public Bill Committee, to bd considered. -- Psychoactive | :15:37. | :15:46. | |
Substances Bill. Lynne Brown To Move Clause One. Thank You So Much, | :15:47. | :15:55. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker. Both Of These Clauses Deal With The Key Issue Of | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
Drugs, Education And Awarendss. This bill contains provisions to disrupt | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
the supply of psychoactive substances, but these provisions | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
will not be affected without action to reduce demand. What we nded is a | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
coherent and comprehensive dducation and awareness strategy to go | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
which places the duty on thd which places the duty on thd | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
Secretary of State to updatd Parliament on the progress lade by | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
the Government in improving on education and awareness of new | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
psychoactive substances. Thd Bill requires the Secretary of State to | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
bring a progress review before Parliament and I remember prescribes | :16:39. | :16:40. | |
this review should contain information about education and | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
awareness as well -- and I've member. I will give way. Th`nk you, | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker. And thank you for giving way. I visited a high | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
school in my constituency, ly old school, and saw their first,hand the | :16:58. | :16:58. | |
kind of educational work behng done kind of educational work behng done | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
on so-called legal highs. Would she agree with me that is precisely the | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
kind of approach we need? I thank my honourable friend for making that | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
point and indeed they have ` really impressive education progralme I | :17:16. | :17:17. | |
will come to later in my contribution. Clause one amdnds the | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
education act to make PF eg include education act to make PF eg include | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
a focus on drugs and new psychoactive substances. It should | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
be foundation subject in anx national curriculum. The Government | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
education strategy on drugs contains really warm words about providing | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
good quality education and `dvice so young people and their parents are | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
provided with "Credible information to actively resist substancd | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
misuse". But these warm words are not and were not acted upon. The | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
Coalition Government reversdd Labour's plans to make this a | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
statutory requirement. Desphte that being recommended in the review | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
carried out by Sir Alistair MacDonald, they closed the drugs | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
education Forum, a source of expertise on drugs education in | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
England, which disseminated information to teachers across the | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
country. The forum was closdd as part of a drastic cut in drtgs | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
education spending. According to the Department of Health, drugs | :18:22. | :18:30. | |
education spending reduced from ?3.9 million in 2009 and 2010 to around | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
give way... I am very grateful to my give way... I am very grateful to my | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
honourable friend and of cotrse you make the very important point about | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
the need for PHSE to includd these measures. Given the five-ye`r | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
forward view set out by Stevens for the National Health Service | :18:55. | :18:56. | |
predicates ?5 billion worth of savings coming from preventhon, | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
isn't this exactly the kind of prevention we should be proloting in | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
our schools? My honourable friend is absolutely right. If I camera Abdul | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
Hassib Seddiqi statistics properly, the Government estimated to do the | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
kind of comprehensive drugs education would cost approxhmately | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
?500 per pupil in England and Wales -- if I can remember my statistics | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
properly. If you consider ndarly ?1 million would be spent on a person | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
misusing substances over thd course of their lifetime, an average cost | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
of course, we can see it cotld be cost effective to provide ddcent | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
comprehensive drugs education and stop us from spending at thd other | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
end, which is on people who are misusing and abusing substances | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
Statistics provided by the drug and alcohol charity demonstrate this was | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
schools no teacher drugs edtcation schools no teacher drugs edtcation | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
for one I've more or less pdr year. -- for one hour or unless a year. | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
69% of all pupils say they cannot remember having a drugs education | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
lesson in the past year. Thd former chief executive of the charhty has | :20:13. | :20:21. | |
told a newspaper we are probably in the worst situation for dec`des for | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
drugs education and where there is drugs education the quality is | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
questioned. Ofsted found 40$ of PHSE teaching was not good and ndeded to | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
improve. In 2013, a survey of teachers by the PHSE Associ`tion | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
reported 81% of responders would like more classroom resourcds for | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
drugs and alcohol education. I will give way. I am very grateful. Can my | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
honourable friend give an example of any anti-drug use education | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
programme here or anywhere dlse in the world in this century or the | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
last century which resulted in a reduction in drug use? Have to say | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
to my honourable friend I al going to come to it later in my speech | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
when I speak about Wales, and although there has not yet been a | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
proper examination of findings from the drugs programme Wales h`s put | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
into action, they does in the initial findings look as if it has | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
had some impact so if my honourable friend will allow, I will continue | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
with my... Thank you. The evidence, including frol the | :21:35. | :21:45. | |
government's and inspectors suggests that the approach to PSA G hs not | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
working. The failure has occurred at a time when the growth of the | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
psychoactive substances indtstry has dramatically altered the drtg | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
situation in our country -- PSHE. Moreover, parents want thesd | :22:03. | :22:13. | |
changes, and NUT survey say that 88% of parents want PSHE to be | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
compulsory. 98% of parents were happy for their children to attend | :22:21. | :22:28. | |
PSHE lesson. There is still the issue of the | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
purchasing of legal highs online. Does the honourable lady fedl that | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
there is much to do in relation to that? I do agree with the honourable | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
gentleman that there needs to be much that we can do in order to | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
prevent the supply and demand of these substances. This set of | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
amendments is currently dealing with demand. I feel that unless we get | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
our message out, that these so-called legal highs are ndither | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
legal or safe. Then the dem`nd on the Internet will become evdn | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
greater. So we do need to gdt out the core message that the government | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
is doing through this bill, these drugs are not legal, they are not | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
safe, and actually, the dem`nd on the Internet needs to be curbed as | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
well. That is why we have to make sure that we have proper edtcation | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
and information out there. Ladam Deputy Speaker, we have a shtuation | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
where parents, teachers and the government 's own inspectors think | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
that we should have more and better drug education. But it appe`rs the | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
government does not agree. Hn Wales, a Labour government shows us how | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
successful an alternative approach can be. ?18 million investmdnt in | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
the all Wales School liaison programme has made substancd misuse | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
a core subject in 98% of Welsh primary and secondary schools - a | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
?2 million. Almost all schools receive accurate and credible | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
information about the potential harm of drugs rather than having to rely | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
on friends, myths, the Internet and guesswork. The school progr`mme is | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
complemented by the Welsh elerging drugs and novel substance project. | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
That is a new psychoactive substances information and harm | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
reduction programme, as well as measures to educate parents. These | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
are all part of a ?50 million investment in reducing drugs harms. | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
There are signs that the Welsh approach is working. Drug ddaths in | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
Wales are down 30% since 2000. In contrast, drug-related deaths have | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
been creeping up in England. There was a 17% increase in the l`st year. | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
The Office of National Stathstics states that they are now at the | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
highest level since records began in 1993. Too much of the drugs | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
education in our schools is focused on providing information. Evidence | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
suggests that to get drugs dducation right, it has to be taught `longside | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
a focus on life skills, which empowers young people to resist peer | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
pressure and make informed decisions. I will give her ` | :25:14. | :25:23. | |
chance... It is good to hear from her again. I agree with an `wful lot | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
of what she is saying. Nobody is suggesting that it is perfect but we | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
have Mental UK, the Rise Above campaign, the Frank campaign. Of | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
course there is a role for the state, and education and he`lth | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
There is a role for parents, I am a parent of two young children and I | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
educate them as best as I c`n with the information I have about the | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
danger of psychoactive substances, would you agree this is a kdy part? | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
I agree with the honourable gentleman but I've not been lucky to | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
be a parent myself. But I know that looking at my nieces, their parents, | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
what their parents tell thel, and the information parents havd is | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
crucial in making the right decisions. Shall the ministdr give | :26:12. | :26:19. | |
way? I will. I'm very grateful for you giving way on that point, I want | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
to make the point that therd are a lot of very responsible pardnts out | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
there who will of course talk to their children about legal highs and | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
building resilience and self-confidence so children make the | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
right decision in their livds. But we have to accept that unfortunately | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
there are many young childrdn who don't have the advantages would like | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
them to have and it is important that we all recognise education | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
within the school setting is another way of getting important messages | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
across. My honourable friend is right, these life skills can only be | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
taught by helping children think about the challenges and dangers | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
which they face and underst`nd that bullying is often a tool of the drug | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
pusher and a consequence of taking drugs from pushers is that they | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
often become themselves in debt and open to exploitation. When they | :27:11. | :27:17. | |
introduce into a classroom, in our schools, they can result in | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
conversations between young people, and a real learning process taking | :27:21. | :27:28. | |
place, rather than the hit `nd miss that can take place. Outsidd the | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
school. We need information and context to deliver quality | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
education, that is why we nded the kind of education that can be | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
provided by PSHE, not solelx as is happening so often in the science | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
lessons in our classrooms. Unfortunately, the government has | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
often set its opposition into making PSA -- PSHE a lesson. Research by | :27:57. | :28:10. | |
the Royal Society of Public health found that a quarter of young people | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
between 16 and 24 believe that so-called legal highs were safer | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
than illegal drugs. As we all know, this is a dangerous misunderstanding | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
because some of the new psychoactive substances have been classified as | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
class a drugs. It is little wonder that young people and older people, | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
in fact, are confused when they are bombarded by the marketing tricks | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
from drug pushers who tell ts that they are safe and legal | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
alternatives. Given the ingrained and damaging myths surroundhng | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
psychoactive substances, I find it astonishing that, as of the 2nd of | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
June, ?180,556 has been spent over three years on education programmes | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
on these drugs. New psychoactive substances, education awareness is | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
not just about schools, that is why I've tabled amendment for, that | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
would put a statutory duty on the Home Secretary to include an update | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
on progress made in improving the psychoactive substances education | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
and awareness in her statutory review. I think this amendmdnt would | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
focus minds at the Home Offhce and compelled them to put into place the | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
most effective and comprehensive awareness campaign possible. The | :29:31. | :29:39. | |
Welsh assembly found that 57% of new psychoactive substances users used | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
the media as their main source of information about psychoacthve | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
substances. Therefore, publhc relations and advertising c`mpaigns | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
have a genuine role, a key role to play. This is particularly true | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
among adults groups where the government cannot act as a direct | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
provider of education as thdy do in school. Governments and public | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
awareness campaigns are limhted really, to the Frank websitd which | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
has almost no social media presence. Regrettably. In the absence of any | :30:12. | :30:19. | |
government action, the foundation has been forced to run camp`igns | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
through fundraising and corporate donations in kind, I would like to | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
praise their work again. I'l sure they would acknowledge thesd | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
campaigns should be nationwhde and comprehensive. They simply cannot | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
afford to do it themselves. The job they are doing is the job that the | :30:37. | :30:37. | |
government should be doing. May I . Isn't it strange that we have the | :30:38. | :30:58. | |
information coming from Frank that it is not linked, the great work | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
that can be pushed through social media about the awareness of this, | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
there is not this collaboration Surely we need the government to | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
take lead on this collaboration I say give the gentleman a job in the | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
Home Office, I think we would become more effective if we put into | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
practice what he has suggested. During the committee, the Mhnister | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
said that he agreed, I think I don't want to put words into his louth, | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
that Frank was inadequate. He said "I put my hands up, talk to Frank is | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
not perfect. We will work whth everybody to ensure that talk to | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
Frank improves". The weight is feeding information is perh`ps not | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
as direct as possible. Let's sort that now -- the way it is. Let me | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
say to the honourable Minister, I would encourage him to respond to | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
the point that his honourable friend has made, and give us an | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
understanding of the progress he has made in sorting it. She may not be | :32:01. | :32:12. | |
aware but a prominent anti-drugs campaign in my constituency, Mary | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
Brett, has always had a lot of problems with the Frank website | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
because of the emphasis on hot reduction. The website fails to | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
really point out the dangers in a direct way in which youngstdrs can | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
understand. I would support her in hoping that the Minister wotld again | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
look at this. There are manx very good campaigners with honestly held | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
views that think that Frank is not good enough. I thank the honourable | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
lady for making that point. I looked at Frank. I know very littld about | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
drugs, in truth, aside from what I have learnt in the last few months. | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
I did not know what poppers were in the beginning of my brief, H thought | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
they were little things with string that you have that parties. When I | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
looked at the Frank website, it did not enlighten me that much. I needed | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
something more basic that would help me with my education. I agrde with | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
the honourable lady and the point she has made. I urge the Minister to | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
pledge to report to Parliamdnt the progress made in delivering the | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
government's education strategy It is not a big ask and if the | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
government are serious about drug education, I believe the honourable | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
gentleman is, it is something that ought to be committed to rigorously | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
monitoring, at the very least. The minister claimed in his letter to | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
the Bill committee that the statutory review should focts on the | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
operation of legislation. I agree but the operation of this | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
legislation will not happen in a vacuum. The Minister has repeatedly | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
said it must become fermentdd by a communication and awareness strategy | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
that seems appropriate, to le, that the operation of this legislation | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
would include a substances section on education and awareness just to | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
make sure that we are getting the message is out there and reducing | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
demand. I'm sure that the Mhnister will agree with me that we should be | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
keen to review and evaluate the impact this legislation would have, | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
I'm pleased there is provishon in this bill that would ensure this | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
happens. However, can he provide assurances that in the regular and | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
annual collection of statistics about the arrests, prosecuthon, | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
sentences, offender managemdnt and treatment, information colldcted | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
about substances covered by this legislation would not be subsumed | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
with the similar data collected for the drugs controlled under the | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
misuse of drugs act. And, in a similar way, surveys carried out by | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
the government into crime and public health will separate considdration | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
of information about the misuse of drugs act, controlled drugs and the | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
psychoactive substance. I r`ise this because it would be all too easy to | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
simply obscure the impact that this legislation would have if the | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
information is collapsed into the existing systems for collecting data | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
about actions taken on drugs controlled under the misuse of drugs | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
act. I would like to ask thd Minister to accept a new cl`use one. | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
A girl can dream! The government's approach to PSHE is not working We | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
cannot stand by and let that happen when you psychoactive subst`nces are | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
bringing new dangers into otr community. -- when new psychoactive | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
substances will stop while H am on my feet I would like to spe`k to | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
amendment five. If passed, ht would add poppers to the list of banned | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
psychoactive substances. Thdy would be treated like alcohol, and | :35:43. | :35:50. | |
caffeine. We know them to bd psychoactive but do not feel they | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
are judicious to ban. The rdason we support the bill is because we think | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
that legislation is necessary to safeguard against the seriots harm | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
is created by new psychoacthve substances. Our concern to safeguard | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
against harm is the same re`son why we believe that poppers ought to be | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
exempt from the ban on psychoactive substances. In our judgment, fewer | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
harms are likely to occur if poppers are added to the exemption list | :36:20. | :36:26. | |
In which she recognises the representations made to the fact of | :36:27. | :36:35. | |
a beneficial and healthy relationship effect and the concern | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
that a ban will have partictlarly on men who have sex with men. H was | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
pleased to see the Home Secretary has chosen to refer this issue for | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
further consideration by experts that I was a little perplexdd as to | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
why this consideration was not being made with the a CMD, her own body of | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
scientific experts on drugs but instead through the M8 are ` | :37:00. | :37:08. | |
instead. I know if the recommendation by then be f`vourable | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
and agree with the recommendations about poppers, then they will be | :37:14. | :37:25. | |
consulted. I am conscious that this is an intervention, not a speech. | :37:26. | :37:34. | |
The Shadow minister will hopefully be pleased to know that the HMG will | :37:35. | :37:43. | |
start the process. I am ple`sed to hear that and I am grateful to the | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
Minister for the intervention. Why not? Whatever the process that the | :37:50. | :37:56. | |
government is going to go through, it seems boring and crazy to them | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
than the substances with a view to an banned them into what three | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
months' time. the home affairs select comlittee in | :38:07. | :38:14. | |
their report as I do to support amendment five? I do indeed agree | :38:15. | :38:25. | |
with him. Despise the seemingly welcome movement, I am still moving | :38:26. | :38:38. | |
to place poppers on the list. In short, we may do more harm by this | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
action. Life after a review and further evidence it is provdn that | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
poppers are harmful and that on balance they ban will be | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
appropriate, we will willingly review and test the evidencd and if | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
the case is proven, support the ban on the substances. I agree with her | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
approach in this respect because surely that makes far more sense and | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
leads to a situation wherebx the government's approach is gohng to | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
create uncertainty and mixed messages not just in the gax | :39:16. | :39:17. | |
community but in the population at large. My honourable friend is | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
absolutely right. Let's look at the context and evidence. Poppers have | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
been used recreationally in Britain for well over 30 years. In `ll that | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
time no government has sought to ban them. The word poppers is used to | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
describe a group of chemical compounds some of which carry more | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
potential harms than others. They are popular in some sections of the | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
gay community. I am told thdy enhance sexual experience. Some | :39:49. | :40:00. | |
compounds contained within them are relatively rare because of | :40:01. | :40:09. | |
legislation. The most common compound is weaker and does not | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
constitute or pose a signifhcant health risk. Poppers are not... They | :40:14. | :40:24. | |
have been around a long timd but controlled by the Misuse of Drugs | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
Act, not because they are h`rmless, but because they do not meet the | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
high threshold of the act. Hf we are to bring in a blanket ban, this is a | :40:34. | :40:42. | |
blanket ban, a psychoactive substance. Surely the Minister s | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
response to the response suggesting he will do the research... Surely we | :40:47. | :40:56. | |
are doing this the right wax round. Don't agree we should do thhs the | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
other way around. I will explain as I go along. My feeling is that this | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
bill should be about harms. Poppers have not been thought to be | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
controlled by any government. They have been around for decades. In | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
fact they were created in the late 19th century. I understand that some | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
ministers in this House at the dispatch box have used them to | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
simply keep going because they were prescribed that the time by their | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
doctors. The reality is if we ban them now, and then an banned them in | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
four months' time, it will create confusion. What would be better | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
would be to allow what has happened all along to continue and if it is | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
found that the test of signhficant harm is found, then banned them | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
Take them off the exempt list. We won't have any underground labs | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
creating synthetic poppers `nd selling them in nightclubs. It won't | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
be the kind of harm that I dnvisage and fear would happen if we put | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
them... If we didn't put thdm on the exempt list today. I want to make | :42:04. | :42:12. | |
the opposite point. The simple truth is if you ban something and then you | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
take it back later you are bringing the law into disrepute. There was no | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
one in this House who is fidrcer than me in terms of banning | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
inappropriate substances but it seems to me this is the wrong way | :42:24. | :42:34. | |
round. I absolutely agree whth the honourable gentleman. In giving | :42:35. | :42:46. | |
evidence to the home affairs select committee, a doctor said as far as | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
he could speak as a clinici`n, he doesn't think he could have seen | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
anyone coming to the clinic who had harms connected with poppers. | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
Another professor said he h`d not seen sufficient scientific dvidence | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
of harm in the case of just poppers to justify recommendation under the | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
Misuse of Drugs Act. And he was not aware of any increase in thd use of | :43:13. | :43:21. | |
poppers and fall within the UK. To be fair-minded, must I also share | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
concerns in relation to poppers not being on the list, the government | :43:26. | :43:33. | |
does response that the doctor also went on to say there are associated | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
harms. There are links with poppers and I damage and it is the sort of | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
thing that is unpredictable. Genuinely if the evidence changes | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
and if we can see that therd is significant harm, let's ban it. But | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
for us, it is a bit like alcohol. Used wrong, excessively, it causes | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
massive harm. As I understand it, the way poppers are genuinely use, | :44:02. | :44:09. | |
generally used, by the majority of users, they do not create the kind | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
of harms that would require us to be banning them and actually, to ban | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
them with genuinely cause more harm than the harm themselves. I'd like | :44:21. | :44:28. | |
to challenge the myth that by banning a drug you reduce its use. | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
This is virtually never happened and in all most every case when a | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
previously legal substance has been used, as happened with metal drill, | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
its use increased 300% and ht is a myth to believe banning a drug will | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
have that effect. What it is likely to do is replace a legal market with | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
a criminal market which is infinitely more harmful. I `gree | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
with the honourable gentlem`n that if we do not place poppers on the | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
exempt list today, we are lhkely to replace a criminal market whth a | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
regulated market and that, H believe, will be in the intdrests of | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
absolutely no one. It is actually worse than that set out by ly | :45:17. | :45:23. | |
honourable friend. What is likely to happen is that a gay man who might | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
use poppers to enhance sexu`l pleasure, being made illegal he may | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
be tempted to go to the lack market and use a class a or B drug which | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
would increase the risk of unprotected sex and as a | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
consequence, an increased rhsk of STDs. My honourable friend hs right. | :45:47. | :45:57. | |
I agree with him. I apologise to intervene twice but I want to make | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
sure we get the reference point for harm clear. I know very little about | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
poppers, I spent this morning reading about them. They catse | :46:07. | :46:14. | |
fainting, some blood damage. Paracetamol can cause damagd, | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
aspirin can cause damage. Ldt's be clear about what damage means. These | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
do not appear to be on the face of it harmful drugs. I agree whth the | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
honourable gentleman in the House will be aware that the home affairs | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
select committee concluded that poppers should be exempted from the | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
ban. The chair of the home `ffairs select committee who is in his place | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
for most of this debate, will inform the House of his views of the Home | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
Secretary's response to the committee recommendation because I | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
was listening to that with great interest. Poppers is not a new drug. | :46:56. | :47:03. | |
They were first created in the 9th century. They are not a new chemical | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
compound which has been synthetically produced to mhmic the | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
effect of already banned substances. There is a good argument th`t | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
poppers are not only relatively harmless but they are not the sort | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
of new psychoactive substance that this bill is intending to ddal with. | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
We feel a ban on poppers evdn for a short period will in fact bring | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
about harms. The ban will t`ke the sale of poppers out of the | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
regulatory regime and users may end up being pushed underground where | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
unscrupulous unregulated sellers in it for the profit are more likely to | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
provide harmful drug compounds and possibly drive users towards other | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
harmful and harder drugs. If it is likely that the review will take six | :47:50. | :47:56. | |
months or longer, it is for six months of confusion, potenthal | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
prosecutions, there is a re`l danger that they will be under the counter | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
sales of poppers which will not be subject to the same regulathons | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
There is a danger of harm bding created even by a temporary ban on | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
poppers. With the Minister not consider a temporary exempthon for | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
poppers until the MH RA report back? I understand the government has told | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
the National aids trust that the fears I have outlined is unfounded. | :48:27. | :48:36. | |
The National aids trust havd been informed by the gay men's hdalth | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
service in Ireland health sdrvice executive that poppers are still | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
openly sold in Ireland's sex shops and soreness, effectively policing | :48:49. | :48:50. | |
poppers on the exemption list. If this is the case, we would not | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
expect to see any harms associated with pushing Popper use unddrground | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
in Ireland because the poppdrs market is still in effect ott in the | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
open. Cannot therefore be inferred that the situation in Ireland there | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
will be no help harms from ` ban on poppers in the UK. I fear that | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
including poppers in the band may undermine the bill and make it far | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
more difficult to get across the vital message that psychoactive | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
substances can be an very often are very dangerous. There is a risk of | :49:26. | :49:34. | |
the bill, with the ban on poppers which is thought to be relatively | :49:35. | :49:46. | |
harmless. It would be a dis`ster to undermine the important work done by | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
the bill. Finally, given th`t poppers are widely used but | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
relatively harmless, we fear enforcing the ban on poppers would | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
be a waste of scarce police resources. Enforcing the bill will | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
be difficult enough without disproportionate amount of police | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
time spent on enforcing a b`n on a relatively harmless drug. If any | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
future there is evidence produced to the contrary, should be removed from | :50:13. | :50:27. | |
the exemption list. I would urge them to place poppers on thd exempt | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
list until the H M R a has considered the evidence and reported | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
back. I will be listening intently to what he has to say. | :50:37. | :50:45. | |
The question is that new cl`use one be read a second time. Before I call | :50:46. | :50:52. | |
the honourable lady, we havd got a total of two hours, so about another | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
hour and a half, and they'rd quite a large number of people wanthng to | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
speak. If people could keep us tight as possible that be great. Thank | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
you, Madam Deputy Speaker. H write to remove the amendment that stands | :51:07. | :51:08. | |
in my name and following on from the honourable lady's remarks, H have | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
really put this amendment down by way of a probing amendment to | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
ascertain the government's position on a number of products that have | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
been marketed through an online marketing company by my constituent, | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
the company is called For Chris Capper supplements. -- Focus | :51:30. | :51:38. | |
Supplements was that he camd in a couple of weeks ago concerndd that | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
the product they sell is legally, health supplements, and substances | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
which people use for various things which I will go through latdr in | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
talking to this amendment, `nd I wanted to make sure that thd | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
Minister and the Department knew that there are substances ott there | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
that are being marketed by perfectly honest, decent and legal colpanies, | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
indeed on eBay and by peopld like Holland and Barrett, where there is | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
concern that they may fall within the ambit of this bill. Therefore, | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
criminalise those towns as which are perfectly innocuous, and indeed in | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
some demand. I have no personal experience of these products! I am | :52:21. | :52:27. | |
very supportive of his legislation. Let me make no mistake, I would not | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
be moving this amendment, or asking for clarification, if I thotght | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
there was any harm going to come from the substances that I have | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
placed on the order paper today The purpose of this amendment is to see | :52:41. | :52:49. | |
whether they fall foul of the substances in this legislathon. | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
Indeed, whether clause thred, which we discussed earlier on and have | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
been discussing in the pass`ge of this bill for the exempted | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
substances, can be fleshed out in any way at this stage. That would | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
also be helpful to people w`tching this debate. Many of these products | :53:04. | :53:11. | |
are used by people to combat anxiety, aid sleep, enhanced memory | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
and learning, and to improvd focus. And as such, they are used `s | :53:17. | :53:25. | |
dietary supplements. Some increase the level of choline in the brain | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
and contain a substance which is found in many foods, foods rich in | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
choline can include smoked salmon to fried eggs and chicken liver and | :53:37. | :53:45. | |
Brussels sprouts. Indeed, there are recommendations in some health | :53:46. | :53:47. | |
regimes around the world th`t there is a certain level of cholines which | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
you should be taking in everyday in your diet. The new Tropics `re | :53:52. | :54:04. | |
supplements that can in somd cases improve one or more function of the | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
brain. They can improve working memory, motivation or even | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
attention. One thinks that perhaps that is a group of substancds that | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
could easily be taken by sole of the members of this House to improve | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
their attention to some of the debate I have been in on occasion! | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
There is nothing that powerful! The products listed under miscellaneous | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
are various, but for exampld oxygenating is a precursor for | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
serotonin and is sold in from health shops such as Holland and B`rrett. | :54:42. | :54:49. | |
-- one is a precursor for sdrotonin. Some are present in green tda. | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
Another is available from v`rious health shops. Reverse at all I am | :54:56. | :55:03. | |
reliably informed is found hn red wine and if an excellent substance. | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
Fuel duty anime -- Sulbutiamine is also present in | :55:07. | :55:26. | |
many things. My constituent asked and it was stressed that it was | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
perfectly legal to sell these products but medicinal clails were | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
made. In many other countrids, including the USA, I understand all | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
of the substances I have listed in amendment one are not controlled | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
substances. It is legal to tse, on and sell all those products in the | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
USA, and indeed many other countries. I think one of the | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
problems with a lot of thesd products is the relatively xoung. | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
They are only ten years old in some cases. Although many of thel have | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
been subject to study the academic level, they have not gone through | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
the rigorous testing that mddicinal drugs would necessarily go through. | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
But it seems to be... Give way? I will, but it seems to me th`t this | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
sort of product is not the sort of products that this Government or | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
minister is seeking to ban. I give way. My right honourable frhend is | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
exactly right. One reason is that many fitness supplements and other | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
supplements that work on thd brain, there is no doubt about that, growth | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
hormone related ones student and then on things like sage oil do But | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
the other problem she faces is the actual definition in explan`tory | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
notes, which says that psychoactive substance is one that includes but | :56:48. | :56:56. | |
is not limited to drowsiness, mood, all of which could affect things | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
like antihistamines and sagd oil. We have a real problem. They are not | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
careful, we will end up with bad lot which will undermine the st`tus of | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
people like her constituent. The comics I could not have put it | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
better myself! I think that is what concerns me about this legislation. | :57:15. | :57:16. | |
I will say, I think that thd point that was made, that if it is there | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
is a blanket ban and a stuphd ban, because it answered perfectly | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
innocuous substances, it will undermine the very purpose for which | :57:27. | :57:34. | |
this law is being passed. I have very grateful. Does she not think | :57:35. | :57:42. | |
there is a danger in treating these nootropic drugs differently to the | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
others, that we could give them some credibility and approval. There has | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
been some research into thehr harm or otherwise, trials have bden | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
poorly designed. They have not found any great dangers but they would not | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
be accepted as being right for a medicinal drug. Would it not be | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
dangerous to treat this grotp, I understand her constituent's | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
interests commercially, to treat it in the same way as any other and | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
give the public the impresshon that they were harmless? We do not know. | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
I do not think that by putthng them on the exempted last anybodx should | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
trolley conclusion that there are harmless. They obviously have an | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
effect of some sort on individuals, otherwise, as my constituent reports | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
today, I do not think he wotld have a 32% repeat orders for manx of | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
these substances. I take thd point that the honourable gentlem`n is | :58:41. | :58:48. | |
making. However, when it coles to choline, the National Acadely of | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
Sciences has said that cholhne is the dietary requirements, as I | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
referred to earlier, the Federal drugs agency has recommended 42 | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
milligrams of choline intakd a day. When it | :59:00. | :59:09. | |
comes to the racetams, a trhal was carried out on rights, and ht was | :59:10. | :59:19. | |
shown to have effect. I havd various other references were there has been | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
a good research done into these drugs. Others, I will admit, have | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
not had so much research carried out into them. However, the purpose of | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
this amendment was to make sure that the law of unintended consepuences | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
did not apply to this legislation. I think that I would ask the Linister, | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
when he is responding to thhs group of amendments, that he needs to | :59:41. | :59:47. | |
reassure my constituent, and many other organisations, indeed many of | :59:48. | :59:50. | |
the health food shops that sell these supplements, that either they | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
do not fall within the ambit of this bill, and therefore they do not need | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
to be considered and so nond of the companies, online companies or | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
health food shops, need concern themselves about falling fotl of | :00:06. | :00:11. | |
this legislation, or, if yot think that they need more research to tell | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
us what needs to be done, btt certainly expect at the bard minimum | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
you will undertake to review this list of products that I havd | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
produced at amendment one and let us know after discussions with the ace | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
MD what he intends to do about it. Hopefully, he will either bd able to | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
add them to the list, or let us know that this legislation does not apply | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
to these products. If not, he needs to reassure my constituent by | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
letting me know the timescales by which he will investigate these | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
particular products and maybe others that might be brought to his | :00:48. | :00:56. | |
attention. Keith Vaz. It is a pleasure to follow the honotrable | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
lady for -- the honourable lady one of the most distinguished and | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
respected members of this House She makes her case very powerfully on | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
these points. I all her an `pology, that because of the speed whth which | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
the select Committee was trxing to look at this bill, because of the | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
timetable the government has given us, that we did not have thd | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
opportunity to explore propdrly the point that she has made to take | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
evidence from her constituent and others, who might have felt that | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
they were going to be affected by this legislation. If we had more | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
time, we certainly would have had them before us. And as is otr | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
policy, I am sure that when we come to review this legislation hn a few | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
months' time, we will have the opportunity of seeing exactly what | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
its effect would be. But I thank her for putting down the amendmdnt and | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
for reminding the House of the importance of all these othdr | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
products that may be caught within the legislation. I want to commend | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
the Minister. He is rapidly becoming one of my favourite Home Office | :02:03. | :02:03. | |
ministers! LAUGHTER | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
Partly, Madame Deputy Speakdr, because he agreed to be Father | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
Christmas at the Westminster kids, party. He did it so well. -, kids | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
club parted us also, he is prepared to the House and he did say that he | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
would look at the work of the Select Committee and try to reflect some of | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
its work in the amendments that he put forward to the committed stage. | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
He has done so in many of the cases, many of the recommendations that we | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
have put forward. He sent md yesterday, again, plenty of time to | :02:43. | :02:44. | |
read for today, I thank him for giving me so much time, the | :02:45. | :02:52. | |
government's response to thd... To the psychoactive bill committee | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
stage, and to recommendations. But I should also begin by thanking the | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
honourable member for Enfield Southgate, pushing the commhttee | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
last year to have an inquirx into this matter before the Housd had to | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
consider this at second reading Again, we were caught out bx the | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
government's timetable, bec`use it was moved forward, as a restlt of | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
which we did not have all the time in the world to consider thdse | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
things. But I thank him for doing so. And I want to thank members of | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
the committee, some of whom are here today, for the work that thdy did at | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
very, very short speed in ensuring that happened. I know that the | :03:32. | :03:42. | |
Member for why some -- one lember attended many of the meetings for | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
this bill, despite the fact that she was sitting on to others at the | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
time. I think the government has moved in respect of the number of | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
points that we have made. They were right to legislate. There is no | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
question. This has been in the entry of successive Home Office mhnisters | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
for a number of years. The previous government was committed to doing | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
something about it. It was `ny manifesto, as are excellent shadow | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
Home Office minister has sahd, and I am sure if the Bulls had fallen in | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
the opposite direction, we would have a Labour minister introducing a | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
similar bill. So, well done to the Minister for doing this. And for | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
incorporating. What we have said. In respect of amendments one and five, | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
which I particularly want to blog about, I think it is very ilportant | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
that we give support to organisations like the Angelus | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
foundation. These voluntary organisations invariably nor more | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
than government, because thdy draw on the experience of real lhve | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
people, and they are prepardd to come together on a voluntarx basis | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
in order to try and warn thd public and Parliament about the risks of | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
these substances. I am glad we are not using the word legal highs any | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
more, because as the report says quite clearly, that encourages | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
people to want to try them. In respect to education, I agrde very | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
much with what the shadow mhnister has said. I am sure this will be | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
echoed by the Minister when he speaks. We cannot do enough to save | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
young people -- persuade yotng people that they should not be | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
taking these substances. My children are 20 and 18, away at univdrsity. | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
It is every parent's nightm`re that one of those children, one of their | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
children, out on a night out after studying and doing their work will | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
be offered a substance which is perfectly legal, they will take that | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
substance and they will then be ill and in some cases die. And | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
therefore, the tough approach by the government is something that the | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
Home Affairs Select Committde absolutely supports. | :05:51. | :06:03. | |
Does he think if we change legal highs to a legal highs they will | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
become even more attractive to adolescence? It may well do and I | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
think young people are, werd not calling them legal highs, that is | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
the point. The bill does not seek to change the name. The effect of the | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
bill is to ban the substancds which caused death. It is not a | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
relabelling. I have great rdspect for my honourable friend, hd was a | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
distinguished member of the Home Affairs Select Committee and I know | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
his position is to liberalise the law on drugs. It is not my position, | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
nor that of the Home Affairs Select Committee. Though we miss hhm, and I | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
know he would have forced otr reports to vote, we don't mhss him | :06:52. | :07:01. | |
that much! It is every parent's nightmare that their child should | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
die of drugs, whether it is legal or not is actually neither herd nor | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
there. If we legislate to m`ke the use of illegal drugs more lhkely, | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
which is my view on amendment five if that is not carried, then we are | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
not serving our children. The honourable gentleman is absolutely | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
right and that takes me on to the discussion on camel nitrates. The | :07:27. | :07:36. | |
Shadow minister says that mhnisters have come to the dispatch box having | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
poppers. I thought that was what she said. That came as a great surprise | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
to those of us in the House. She busily knows more than I do about | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
these issues although she claims to know nothing about drugs. I am | :07:50. | :07:58. | |
grateful to my honourable friend having served along an on the | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
committee. I think my recollection was that it was Ernest Bevin in that | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
post-war Labour government who had a bit of a heart murmur and w`s | :08:10. | :08:19. | |
prescribed it from his doctor and was sniffing poppers around the | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
Cabinet table. I thank him for that information and wonder whether it is | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
still in use around the Cabhnet table. | :08:30. | :08:45. | |
We accepted what he said th`t they were not capable, not seem to be | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
capable of having harmful effects, sufficient to constitute a problem. | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
Therefore we recommended un`nimously that they should not be banned. We | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
said if there was evidence that the government brought forward to change | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
that position and change our view then of course they should be added | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
to the list of banned subst`nces. Indeed, we say this, if there is any | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
evidence produced in the contrary, then poppers should be moved from | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
the exempted list or controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act. The | :09:28. | :09:36. | |
minister last night wrote to me and said he had a proposal that a review | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
should begin. He felt there should still be a case for putting poppers | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
on the banned list but that if the evidence changed he would come back | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
to the House or by some othdr order and put them on the exempted list. I | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
think this is the wrong way round. The shadow minister asked md for my | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
view, I have listened to wh`t the member for Winchester has s`id, in | :10:05. | :10:15. | |
this particular case, and wd also said certain things about l`ughing | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
gas being banned, that we dhd not feel the case should be... Has been | :10:21. | :10:28. | |
made and I do feel that, and this is my personal view, when we considered | :10:29. | :10:36. | |
this and we voted upon it a unanimous decision, we did not | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
consider that poppers were harmful. Now, the minister writes back and | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
actually tells the House th`t poppers are beneficial, as hf in | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
some cases it may well be m`ndatory. It says this, that government | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
recognises that representathons have been made to the effect that poppers | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
have a beneficial health and relationship affect in enabling | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
banal sex for some men who have sex with men. And it concern about the | :11:04. | :11:13. | |
effect of the ban on these len. The Home Office will now considdr | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
whether there is evidence to support the claims and whether it is | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
sufficient to exempt poppers in the group. Though I welcome that, I | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
think it is actually the wrong way around and I think you bettdr course | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
of action is to put amyl nitrite on the exempted list, to conduct the | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
review and then to come back to the House or by order and changd that | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
position. It is what we likd to call evidence -based decision-making | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
This is what we have said consistently over the eight years | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
that I have chaired the Homd Affairs Select Committee. There is ` lot of | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
emotion out there on drugs, a lot of people who have great concerns. Some | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
passionately in favour of liberalisation, others of a | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
different position, but why take a position where you ban and then | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
un-ban. It actually affects the huge authority that the government has in | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
respect of this important legislation and he has the whole | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
house with him on this legislation. I doubt we will divide on m`ny | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
issues, and this is pretty rare on Home Office bills. I am tryhng to | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
think of another bill that H sat on and we have considered wherd this is | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
not the case. It is always ` division of some kind. Why divide | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
the House on this particular issue when there is no reason to do so? I | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
say to the Minister, except the amendment, or indeed, don't oppose | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
the amendment, and let us move forward in a constructive w`y. Have | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
his review, come back and everyone in this House will accept what the | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
experts are saying. Without equivocation, I give him thhs | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
guarantee that if indeed thd review decides that poppers are harmful, I | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
will be the first in the division lobby with him supporting this view. | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
But to ban and then un-ban sends a powerful message out to a sdction of | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
our community that they are not being listened to and to experts who | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
have given evidence to us that they are wrong. So I urge him evdn at | :13:28. | :13:37. | |
this late stage, to look at this again and ensure that amyl nitrite | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
is put on the exempt list until his review is concluded. We still have a | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
large number of members who want to come in and at this rate, wd won't | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
get everybody in. I cannot put a time limit on that if members could | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
keep brief, we can get everxone in. Eyebrows firstly just to sax what a | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
pleasure it is to follow thd chairman of the Home Affairs Select | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
Committee. I agree with almost every part of his argument and certainly | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
with the conclusions of the select committee rich port and -- report. I | :14:17. | :14:28. | |
also certainly want to give time to my honourable friend for Finchley | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
and Golders Green who has bden fighting a battle behind thd scenes | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
to make sure we don't do anxthing really daft with this legislation. | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
There are sometimes when solething is proposed which is becoming | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
personal to you and you realise the government is about to do something | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
fantastically stupid and in those circumstances one has a dutx to | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
speak up and I am, I have used poppers, I out myself as a poppers | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
user. I would be directly affected by this legislation and in | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
astonished to find that it hs proposing to be banned and frankly, | :15:11. | :15:18. | |
so with very many other gay men If I follow my own mindset reaction to | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
this, it simply serves to bring the whole law into disrepute and then | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
begins to bring... Choosing to ban this, which I have been using, and I | :15:31. | :15:41. | |
know has been used, for dec`des then respect for the law is going to | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
fly out the window for people if that is the drug that they tse and | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
all the warnings that it contained in paragraph 43 of the select | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
committee report, particularly that from a gay men's health collective | :15:56. | :16:05. | |
it would result in increased transmission of sexually tr`nsmitted | :16:06. | :16:07. | |
infections, is busy going to happen and driving the supply of these | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
underground simply puts it hn the hands of criminals and put those... | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
I give way. I think it is rhght to focus on the supply. It is hmportant | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
we make the message clear that the continued personal use of poppers is | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
not being banned but the supply Under 18,, the sale of it to under | :16:35. | :16:50. | |
18 's is covered by the act. We need to be aware that this is a | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
computer-aided error of law -- complicated area of law. Whhlst I | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
know my honourable friend h`s done a significant amount of work here and | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
influence this in the right direction, he has been workhng to | :17:08. | :17:17. | |
make sure we don't do something daft with this. He is loyal to hhs front | :17:18. | :17:27. | |
bench, as I try to be. I am not going to be party to somethhng I | :17:28. | :17:37. | |
know is frankly really foolhsh. As a piece of public policy. The issue is | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
about supply and what it might do to someone like me might be to put me | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
in the hands of the criminals to get my supply for something I used to | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
think was perfectly OK. Then there is a piece of legislation which I | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
think is absurd which someone like me, I might find myself in the hands | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
of people who are supplying everything else. It is manifestly | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
stupid to go down the path that we are doing. Let's have the evidence | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
and if government can then come forward with the case that can | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
convince the chairman of thd Home Affairs Select Committee and his | :18:18. | :18:19. | |
colleagues on that in due course then we can have a discussion about | :18:20. | :18:28. | |
this issue then. Do not ban it. It does seem to be a grey area. I | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
understand it is not intenddd to victimise current users of the drug | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
but it does put them in the position where they may be susceptible to | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
blackmail, dealing with crilinals. It seems to me this will crhminalise | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
people. Indeed, and I am advertising the fact I may be vulnerabld to | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
that. I am pleading with thd House to make sure I don't find mxself | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
caught in this particular shtuation. Given that it relates to my own | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
personal experience, and my experience as a Minister for justice | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
with responsibility for offdnders and offender management, I hmplore | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
my colleagues at the very ldast please don't be associated with | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
putting this on the statute book. It is a mistake. The sensible thing to | :19:23. | :19:31. | |
do would be for us to look `t it again in June. First of all, can I | :19:32. | :19:42. | |
just say I'm not alone in mx constituency. I do not like the word | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
legal highs. The very words attract young people to them. I would also | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
like to commend the governmdnt for coming forward with a strong | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
legislative force in the Hotse today. When you bring legislation | :19:59. | :20:07. | |
like this to the House, you are the favourite of many and my | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
constituents will be grateftl for the changes put forward herd today. | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
I think governments have thd same stance and I welcome that. Just last | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
year in my constituency we had the heartbreak and also the illness and | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
trauma as a result of legal highs. A young man, I know his mother and | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
stepfather quite well, was found dead in my constituency as ` result | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
of his addiction to legal hhghs His parents told me that the very nature | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
of what it is, it is a case which has caused shock across the whole | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
province. It left the familx devastated and this is from his | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
stepmum, Dawn. She said leg`l highs are a major problem around here and | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
something has to be done about it. The government is doing somdthing | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
today and I welcome that. I would like to just make some quick points | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
in relation to amendments 14. I want to ask the Minister just three quick | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
points and I want to make these with some background as well. | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
The shadow referred to the legislative change in the Rdpublic | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
of Ireland, where they have brought in a band on the legal highs. It has | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
been extraordinarily effecthve, according to the Irish police. At | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
the same time, five years ago there were 100 shops were selling legal | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
highs was acceptable and th`t has been reduced to zero. The qtestion I | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
want to ask the Minister is this, the Republic of Ireland havd stated | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
very clearly that there is `n issue, even with the hardline legislation | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
they brought in. A BBC investigation found the Republic of Ireland's | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
police squad was unable to protect against a new range because of | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
problems to stop police must scientifically prove that a | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
substance has a psychoactivd effect and so further have only bedn a few | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
prosecutions. One Sergeant said unfortunately a prosecution cannot | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
be taken, outlining but even with that of legislation, which H think | :22:30. | :22:37. | |
this legislation is based on, and so I think it is imperative th`t we | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
were from they are system and not end up with a similar ineffdctive | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
approach, if that is the wax it should be. At the same time, I also | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
want to have a very clear ddfinition of, as it says in this secthon of | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
the causes we have before us. I know that, again, I ask the Minister has | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
there been discussions... I am aware that this year in prisons in England | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
and Wales there have been 26 attempts to deliver drugs of the | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
drones. Legal highs. In the first ten months of 2015. Insiders claim | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
that it could be higher than that number of 26. Again, this | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
legislation is great but it only works with every other government | :23:27. | :23:28. | |
department is doing their bht. Perhaps the Minister could respond | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
to that. I am very conscious that you set off a timescale and I will | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
keep to that. This is my last point. In the introduction by the shadow | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
minister, it was referred to well it is good to have this legisl`tion but | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
there is still the possibilhty of being able to purchase legal highs | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
and the like online. I think many of us feel that where this leghslation | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
will be strong, the way we wanted, and I thank government for that and | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
that will be exactly what mx constituents want to see, across | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
crusty old Northern Ireland, to ensure that local councils `nd | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
police can stop the manufacture and sale of these products. I'm quite | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
happy to give way. Is he aw`re that in Ireland, after the introduction | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
of legislation which is verx similar to this legislation, not only did | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
every single one of that 102 shops closed down but also there `re now | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
no longer any Irish domain websites selling these substances, and when | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
others were hopeful the samd effect in the UK, here in England `nd | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
Wales. I thank him for that. As I said about the shops being closed, | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
it is really good news. It hs good stuff. But that information I gave | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
earlier on from the Sergeant, he outlined an issue that their time to | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
address now. I think it is good to have other examples that we can | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
refer to, where we can get hard fast, legislative change and address | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
those issues. On the issues of the online, again, it has been | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
successful partially, maybe almost there in the Republic of Irdland. | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
But at the same time, we can do it well. I commend the Minister and | :25:04. | :25:05. | |
government for what they ard bringing forward here and this is | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
the sort of legislation I w`nt to see, my constituents want to see as | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
the sort of legislation that that constituents across the whole | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
Northern Ireland want to sed. We look forward to supporting ht when | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
it comes to devote, if it comes to one. First of all, could I thank the | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
shadow minister for what I thought was a speech which was balanced and | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
had some very well judged comments. I also would like to thank the | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
Minister, my right honourable friend, for the courtesy he showed | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
me when I took a delegation in from the National aids trust, Stonewall | :25:45. | :25:52. | |
and others to discuss this topic. Not just from the debate to day but | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
what has been raging in the gay press over the last few months, | :25:58. | :25:59. | |
there is considerable concern over the need to ban poppers. Wh`t has | :26:00. | :26:07. | |
come to the fore over the p`st few months whilst I have been working on | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
the topic is actually the complete lack of any real empirical detail | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
one way or the other. I do appreciate the Home Office believe, | :26:14. | :26:22. | |
and I have no doubt they believe is genuine, that deaths have occurred | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
from the use of poppers. However, that evidence has never been | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
forthcoming. And so I deciddd to do a little bit more research of my | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
own. I would like to draw attention to American research, particularly | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
by Doctor Thomas Hall of thd University of California in Los | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
Angeles, who gave evidence to a report for Lead Times into the | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
effects of these drugs. I whll quote, not the whole document, but | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
he says there is very specific research that made very little | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
specific research and the hdalth effects. He goes on to say "By | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
summary statement would be that in the grand scheme of drug abtse, the | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
risks from poppers are fairly benign. Isopropyl nitrate and others | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
appeared to be less harmful to the body in general than chronic alcohol | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
consumption." And so I then looked at the New England medical Journal. | :27:22. | :27:29. | |
They said, "To our knowledgd," and this was published in 2010," over | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
the past ten years," which would now be 15 years, "There have only been | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
two cases of visual loss after inhalation of poppers. And the | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
anatomical basis of the injtry remains elusive." And finally, in | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
terms of the medical research, I turned to what is known as the US | :27:51. | :27:58. | |
HHS, the United States Department of Health and Human Services, report of | :27:59. | :28:06. | |
January 20 13. They said, "To date, the use of nitrates as a | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
psychoactive substance among men who have sex with men has received | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
little attention in the addhction textbooks, where they are stbsumed | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
amongst other in he wants," as we are hearing today. "This Is | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
unfortunate because I think these disparate agents together b`sed on | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
Mold of administration, inh`lation, obscures the substantial differences | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
in both mechanism and typic`l risk of between it will nitrates, which | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
act on a specific party, and those solvents and propellants th`t are | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
also propelled. " That is about the sum of medical evidence that I could | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
find. And so in the absence of medical evidence or hard fight in | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
the UK, I wrote to the advisory committee on misuse of drugs. - | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
hard facts in the UK. The chairman could not be more blunt, to say the | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
least. One sentence is a grdy says, "They have not seen that poppers are | :29:05. | :29:11. | |
capable of having harmful effects." And so there was talk about a | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
medicinal benefit to poppers, which I thought was an interesting turn of | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
phrase! Until I received an e-mail, and I will have to bow to the | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
knowledge of our SNP colleagues from a gentleman in Crawley in | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
Inverness, and he says," nitrates are carried and used when the need | :29:35. | :29:41. | |
arises for added rights -- snakebites. Apparently the tse of | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
poppers is assured by many people who work in the countryside as a | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
first line of treatment is one - if one is bitten by an adder." I | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
confessed that adders are not common in my constituency! But he goes on | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
to say, does Mr Joyce," a substantial number of peopld are | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
bitten each year in Britain and the bite is rarely fatal. But whether | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
that is because the then is not particularly powerful against more | :30:13. | :30:14. | |
than healthy humans or becatse treatment with nitrates or one of | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
the eight non-antivenom is `lways administered very quickly is open to | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
debate. Who scored I use th`t because it does show that there is a | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
conflict between what is a view that is held and what limited information | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
and fact is out in the publhc domain. And I do support th`t there | :30:33. | :30:41. | |
is a need to provide up-to-date empirical evidence which also | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
includes proportionality. Anything we do carries a risk. Whethdr it is | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
smoking... If you wish to drink bleach, you will be harmed, but we | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
are not proposing to ban bldach So anything we are seeking to control, | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
regulate or ban has to be ddalt with in the round and has to be dealt | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
with in terms of proportion`lity. I welcome the response to the Home | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
Affairs Select Committee in terms of the investigation that will be | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
underway shortly into the ilpact of the ban on the relationships of gay | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
men and women. I am told it is not just an issue with gay men, it | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
affects gay women as well. @s this is important to remember, and my | :31:25. | :31:32. | |
honourable friend, the Membdr for Leicester East, the chairman of the | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
Home Affairs Select Committde, talked about banal sex, that is | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
quite a crude way of saying that poppers can facilitate the | :31:44. | :31:45. | |
relaxation of muscles. But the point I want to make is not just `bout the | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
physical side of a relationship if your relationship wishes to be as | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
intimate as possible, and poppers facilitate that, that is important | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
element into the emotional well-being of that couple. @nd so if | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
we are talking about the medicinal benefits, we have to includd the | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
relationship benefits and the mental health benefits that the usd of | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
poppers in a relationship could bring. I do think that when we are | :32:13. | :32:22. | |
talking about proportionality, it is important that we do not st`rt | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
banning things on the basis of one or two incidents. It has to be a | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
significant risk of significant harm to a significant number of people, | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
otherwise we would be banning cigarettes and alcohol tomorrow And | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
I must ask my rate honourable friend, and say to him, that the | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
investigation and report must be as open and transparent as possible. | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
And I do ask for assurance when my right honourable friend responds | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
that the evidence will be not just from organisations like Public | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
Health England or elements of the NHS, but is taken from organisations | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
like the National aids trust, the Terrence Higgins trust, Stonewall, | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
but also organisations whosd sale poppers in the UK, because they have | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
a strong and relevant and up-to date evidence bank of how poppers are | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
used, how they are sold, but because they are repeatable retailers, they | :33:25. | :33:26. | |
also have an enormous amount of data on the illegal import of thd more | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
dangerous poppers that are coming in through the Internet. And I would | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
also ask that the Minister would say they take evidence from the | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
international bodies. I mentioned a few earlier on all stop thex have | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
done some medical research hnto the benefits of the use of poppdrs. And | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
one final thing, Madame Deptty Speaker, is if the Home Offhce | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
decides that there is a risk that needs to be mitigated, is not | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
banned, I would urge that if you go down that path, that they look at a | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
licensing through sex shops. If we are worried that there is a risk, is | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
not necessarily requiring an outright ban, one option wotld be to | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
look at having them sold through licensed sex shops, which would | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
allow some level of control, some level of regulation, from ldvel of | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
protection, without an outrhght ban and all of the underground drug that | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
could lead people to be exposed There is a lot of work to bd done, | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
and I do welcome these last action of the right honourable fridnd. You | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
might think I am coming to the conclusion that I would be | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
supporting the opposition's amendment today, and I have to say | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
the opposition have spoken ` lot of sense. However, I will be stpporting | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
the government because one of the things that concerns me is H want an | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
exemption based on empirical evidence. So that if poppers are | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
exempt by the summary says, as outlined in the response to the Home | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
Affairs Select Committee, that exemption cannot easily be | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
overturned at the whim of a future minister. That exception is based on | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
empirical evidence, whatever it says. And on that basis, I will be | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
supporting the government on this particular issue. | :35:11. | :35:18. | |
I think Opec to move the amdndments and my name. -- to Berwick. I wish | :35:19. | :35:32. | |
to speak to the amendments hn my name 12, 13, 14, 15 and along with | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
Labour colleagues, number fhve. I will say at the outset we do support | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
the aims of this bill to protect public health and to go aftdr the | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
big guys, the ones making the profits out of other people's | :35:50. | :35:57. | |
endangerment and not to go `fter the individuals who decide to try it for | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
whatever reason. I think in that respect we are not quite thdre yet | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
which is why we have put across these amendments. Before I do speak | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
to the amendments, I would like to make a plea although I made it in a | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
previous debate about the l`nguage used, and I notice today it has | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
happened a lot less than before and that is about the names people give | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
to the new psychoactive substances and I always say I will nevdr named | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
those products because thosd names are given by marketeers who make | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
them sound bold and exciting and I think it is important that we say | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
exactly what they are and don't use the names that they wish to give | :36:42. | :36:49. | |
them. Amendment 12, the defhnition of psychoactive substance. @s I say, | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
we welcome the broader publhc health aims of this bill. And we h`ve | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
worked hard with the governlent down here to make sure that meastres are | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
proportionate and based on the best advice available to us. And the best | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
advice is available from thd advisory Council on the mistse of | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
drugs which made it very cldar in their submission that the | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
definitions at the heart of the bill require further detail. The Home | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
Affairs Select Committee recommended the government should the | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
definition. The government seems to come at this from another angle | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
going against the grain of scientific advice so we tabled this | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
amendment to be more specifhc when it comes to the definitions. If you | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
are to ask a member of the public what they consider to be a little | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
high, they would generally define them not by chemical family or the | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
fact they are psychoactive hn and of themselves but the similarities in | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
effect they produce to substances already prohibited. It would improve | :37:49. | :37:57. | |
the public understanding and acceptance of these measures. The | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
other important aspect of the amendment is tying legislathon from | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
public health and threat of harm. The bill as it stands as a broad | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
measure and what it is the government's intention to cover all | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
psychoactive substances, it is surely a good principle of | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
legislation that we are cle`r on what the threat is that we `re | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
legislating to tackle. It is the effects of psychoactive substances | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
on the individual and the threat to public health, that should be | :38:27. | :38:37. | |
tackled. Amendment 13, we wdlcome the government's move to | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
criminalising supply and not necessarily possession that we move | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
the amendment to try to prevent the counter productive canonisation of | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
young people who together ptrchased psychoactive substances with one of | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
them placing the order that using money from the wider group. That | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
person could be at risk of being criminalised for supplying ` | :39:00. | :39:10. | |
psychoactive substance. The Honourable member knows I al sure | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
that that approach in relathon to you supply... Two youths, placing an | :39:15. | :39:24. | |
order with a dealer and distributing it among their friends, that is | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
entirely consistent with thd law when it comes to the Misuse of Drugs | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
Act because the messages if you buy a drug and then distribute ht, in | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
the eyes of the law you are a supplier and I think I would be | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
interested to know why she thinks that should be a distinction between | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
these types of drugs and thd more serious drugs under the 1970 act | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
because surely we are trying to achieve the same aim, to stop the | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
supply of harmful substances. My understanding was that we wdre | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
trying not to mirror the Misuse of Drugs Act, but to take the bits of | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
that that we moved on. In tdrms of this bill is not about crimhnalising | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
individuals for possession, whereas under the Misuse of Drugs Act they | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
can be and are criminalised for possession. It doesn't have two | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
major it exactly. Ayes have to mirror it. Drugs like enough lives, | :40:15. | :40:27. | |
certainly in my constituencx. Without the need to penalisd | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
somebody who is acting on bdhalf of his or her peer group, without any | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
financial motives. They are not drugs suppliers. Obviously we may | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
question the decision and wd do question the sensing the decision to | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
do that but it shouldn't be a criminal offence and we are creating | :40:48. | :40:55. | |
a situation where a young pdrson could be pressurised by the group to | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
purchase substances that if they are caught, it could lead to thdm having | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
a substantial criminal convhction. The point surely is to introduce | :41:07. | :41:14. | |
clarity to those young people you are describing because if a young | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
person buys ecstasy, that is a class a drug and they are at risk of going | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
to prison for a long time if they are prosecuted and convicted. If a | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
young person buys one of thdse new psychoactive substances that is | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
minimally different from MDLA but dealers get round it becausd they | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
say it is not ecstasy, it is a bit different and therefore doesn't fall | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
under the 1971 act, that pl`ce is that young person in a very | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
difficult position. They have two... My question is did you encotrage | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
clarity between those drugs so that young people know they should not be | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
buying the substances and distributing them? I am not arguing | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
that we should not be discotraging them. I am arguing that if somebody | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
buys them for themselves and a couple of friends that we shouldn't | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
criminalise them as if they were drug dealers. When they are clearly | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
not click drug dealers. I h`ve strong concerns that further down | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
the line members of this Hotse will be contacted by the parent of | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
somebody who very foolishly purchased a substance on behalf of | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
themselves or one of two frhends and was later convicted of supply and | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
they see their life chances greatly diminished. Of course saying to them | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
this could happen to you if you do this, we hope that would discourage | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
them but I certainly don't think we should be punishing and labdlling | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
somebody at a drug dealer ptshed it with the buying stuff for their | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
friends. If I could just finish my point. People do pass a strong moral | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
judgment on anyone who has ` conviction to do with drugs that are | :42:54. | :43:02. | |
strong moral conviction in Hraq -- you are talking about someone who is | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
getting drugs for himself and his friends, not a drug dealer. And that | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
is what the conviction would be Following arguments from thd other | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
side, does the young -- Honourable Lady agree that tobacco and alcohol, | :43:18. | :43:32. | |
does she contemplate the effects that bans on the substances have had | :43:33. | :43:41. | |
across the world? Today we `re here talking about new psychoacthve | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
substances and lost a take that point, they do cause considdrable | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
harm, I think it is important we carry on with what we are hdre to | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
discuss today. If you think about it, any member in this chamber today | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
has children could face the situation where their child is | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
selling along with some fridnds experiment with legal highs. If they | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
are fortunate enough to be damaged physically or mentally by that, we | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
could end up with a situation where somebody's child is convictdd of a | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
drug dealing offence just for stupidly experimenting. I w`nt to | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
move on to amendment 14 abott Internet purchase. I Alan alendment | :44:27. | :44:41. | |
relates to purchasing drugs over the Internet which is then shipped into | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
the UK. The government says they are moving forward and not seekhng to | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
criminalise individuals unnecessarily and the bill hndicates | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
those purchased in other waxs one be committing a criminal offence. | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
However this part of the bill does criminalise. I would argue they | :45:02. | :45:13. | |
should not concern themselvds with the purchase for personal use for | :45:14. | :45:25. | |
individuals. The spirit of the bill is that we do not want to | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
criminalise individuals for possession but we are going to | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
criminalise the sale and purchase of the substances. So we ask for | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
further clarification. He c`me back and said, I apologise. I was talking | :45:38. | :45:46. | |
about intent to supply, not intent to use. Making a purchase from a | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
foreign website would be catght but the purchase on its own would not | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
and I apologise if I misled the House on that point. My honourable | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
friend then pressed the Minhster and said laws eight -- clause ehght the | :46:03. | :46:14. | |
person intentionally purchases that substance and intends to consume it | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
for its effect. It seems to me if somebody imports and possesses a | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
small amount of substance over the Internet, they are criminalhsed but | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
if they purchase it at a he`d shop, he or she would not be crimhnalised. | :46:31. | :46:38. | |
The minister responded, that is not the bill's intention. As we go | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
through the bill, we will endeavour to iron out those concerns. At the | :46:43. | :46:51. | |
committee stage, I have Honourable friends who were on the comlittee | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
and I known the Minister offered this statement. Possession hn a club | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
would not be an offence, indeed possession is not an offencd under | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
any part of the legislation and less in a secure facility. It is | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
important to send that mess`ge out. I really would like some cl`rity | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
from the Minister on that. Could I ask a much longer I have? There are | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
no time limits in this debate but there are many people wanting to | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
speak and the group is getthng longer so the longer the Honourable | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
Lady speaks, the less time others have a chance to do so. I whll move | :47:27. | :47:37. | |
on. I'm taking my killer arguments and bringing them up. I want to make | :47:38. | :47:49. | |
one more point about the purchasing online. If we are saying it is not a | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
criminal offence to purchasd down a dark alley, which is where xou would | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
have two purchase if you were intending to purchase these | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
psychoactive substances, it is not a criminal offence to do that, but it | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
is an offence to do it over the Internet. You will end up whth a | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
situation where two people, brother and sister, can try exactly the same | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
thing, one of them is a crilinal and one isn't. Who do you think is most | :48:14. | :48:22. | |
likely to be meeting a crimhnal drug dealer back alley? I would say it is | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
far more likely that women will be criminalised for this because they | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
are less likely to want to go and meet the drug dealer in person. | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
Amendment 15, this was lookhng at sentencing with potential h`rm of | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
the substance involved. The Minister did say he supported the prhnciple | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
behind the amendment at comlittee stage though it is just to hear | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
where he stands on it today. On poppers, I am proud the SNP | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
champions this from the start and it was great to hear so many p`ssionate | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
speeches of support from both sides of the House. I won't say anything | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
else other than we support that and I will sit down and let somdone else | :49:08. | :49:17. | |
speak. I rise to speak to clause three which stands in my nale. I | :49:18. | :49:30. | |
would like to festival welcomed the very constructive approach that my | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
honourable friend the Minister has taken to engaging with membdrs on | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
all sides of the House during the passage of this bill. And a | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
constructive engagement which I believe has enhanced the positive | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
aspects of the Bill and I al pleased that there is a broad consensus | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
across the House that this hs an important piece of legislathon which | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
is about public protection. However, what we have heard today in | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
listening to this debate is clearly a call for evidence made policy | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
making. That is something that is echoed in a number of contrhbutions | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
today when speaking to diffdrent amendments and different new | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
clauses. That is something H believe we should all sign up to and it is | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
in that spirit that I have tabled this amendment. Primarily as a means | :50:20. | :50:29. | |
to examine and draw out frol the minister 's comments on what is an | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
increasingly confused law in regard to the medicinal use of cannabis. | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
And indeed some of the rese`rch and the fact that the law as it stands | :50:39. | :50:45. | |
is an impediment to research into the effects of cannabis on lental | :50:46. | :50:52. | |
health and the general rese`rch into medicinal benefits of cannabis and | :50:53. | :50:54. | |
cannabis derivatives. A support. Would he put what you | :50:55. | :51:09. | |
are. With your party group on drug policy reform hopes to condtct an | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
inquiry into the Michael Gifford dumbing medicinal use on cannabis, I | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
think it's results will be very interesting in that evidencd base he | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
mentions. I think he is absolutely right. The two points I am going to | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
come onto when talking about the barriers to research our first of | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
all about barriers currentlx to medical health research, and we know | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
that the use of cannabis has links with mental illness, partictlarly | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
psychosis. But also into thd broader research into the medicinal benefits | :51:40. | :51:41. | |
potentially of the many products which are contained within the | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
cannabis plant, and that is something that the United States has | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
looked into, and indeed we have seen over 20 seats in the United States | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
now relax was that allowed for medicinal use of cannabis, `nd | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
cannabis derivatives. That hs something I am very pleased to see, | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
that the all-party group is going to look into the stop --. It is | :52:04. | :52:12. | |
important that we look at evidence and use that to relax and change the | :52:13. | :52:15. | |
law because the law should be for public protection but also public | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
benefit. If there is a legitimate medicinal use of cannabis, ht is | :52:21. | :52:22. | |
something we should be supporting and encouraging, because th`t is | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
good for patients. No, Madale Deputy Speaker, before I proceed, H | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
wondered also to quickly totch upon the very brave speech by my | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
honourable friend, the Membdr for Reigate, to discuss our personal | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
experiences in this chamber is but it is something that I brings into | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
focus the importance of makhng sure that the love that we pass to impact | :52:48. | :52:59. | |
in a positive way on the dax-to day lives of her constituents. He spoke | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
very readily about his own tse of poppers. It is something th`t | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
helped, I think, to bring alive the debate and crystallise the | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
importance of that evidence -based policy making and something that I | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
know the Minister will respond to later on. So under the issud of | :53:15. | :53:22. | |
rescheduling of cannabis from a schedule one to a schedule to drug, | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
as we are aware, the scheduling of this was laid down in 2001 `nd the | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
reason that cannabis was considered to be a schedule one drug w`s | :53:36. | :53:37. | |
because it did not have any medicinal benefit, which I think is | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
something which is now conshderably in contention on the evidence, based | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
on the evidence I am about to bring forward. It is important to | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
highlight some of the inconsistencies. Under the Schengen | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
agreement, it is actually ldgal for somebody in a Schengen country to | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
bring into the UK, if they have been prescribed by a doctor in their own | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
country, cannabis for medichnal use for up to 30 days. Yet it is not | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
legal in this country for a doctor to prescribe cannabis for mddicinal | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
purposes, unless that happens to be... Prescribing cannabis for the | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
purposes of treating MS, whhch is the one licensed drug currently | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
available. And indeed if we recognise that cannabis can be | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
licensed for treatment of mtltiple sclerosis, MS, currently under | :54:26. | :54:33. | |
licensing, surely we recognhse there is a medicinal benefit. Therefore | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
schedule one is the wrong place for cannabis, because we accept there is | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
a medicinal benefit, and thd Home Office does. We need to be looking | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
at rescheduling the drug. I have hardly touched upon the point in | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
responding to my honourable friend's intervention in the evidencd in the | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
United States that is growing that there are other potential mddicinal | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
benefits of cannabis for trdatment of patients and the relaxing was | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
another 20 states based upon that growing evidence to stop th`t is | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
something we clearly need to look at in this country and in parthcular, | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
the potential benefits of c`nnabis products in palliative care is | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
something that I think deserves considerable merit if there is | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
greater scrutiny. So there hs an inconsistency at the moment in the | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
classification of cannabis. That is the reason I brought this alendment. | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
More particularly, I wanted to talk about some of the barriers to | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
research that are in place to stop I am very grateful to my right | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
honourable friend the Minister for meeting with Professor Sir Robin | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
Murray and a doctor who works in mental health, particularly in | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
psychosis, a very eminent professor to examine this issue and ldarn | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
first-hand some of the diffhculties that the experience in condtcting | :55:54. | :56:00. | |
research into mental ill-he`lth We know that there are links bdtween | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
psychosis and cannabis use, particularly important that we | :56:04. | :56:12. | |
understand the basis upon which the way that the planned works | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
effectively on neurotransmitters, and we support researchers hn being | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
able to conduct their research. At the moment, effectively, those | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
researchers could potentially be criminalised for carrying ott | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
research which would be leghtimate in many other fields of medhcal | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
research. That is something that we, I am sure, is not an intenddd | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
consequence. It also makes ht very difficult to carry out rese`rch in | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
this field of mental health and the links with cannabis in an effective | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
way and do something that I know the Minister is so pathetic to. I am | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
looking forward to hearing from him in how we can find a workable | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
solution. -- is sympathetic to. We do want to improve the treatment of | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
patients with mental ill-he`lth but in order to do that, we need to | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
properly support the researchers to carry out their work and th`t is | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
something I hope the whole house can sign up to. Finally, I wantdd just | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
to say to the House but in talk am speaking to my amendment, that this | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
is not an easy matter. This is not part of a broader discussion on the | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
merits or demerits of legalhsing cannabis. I specifically wanted to | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
bring this amendment for discussion today in order to highlight the | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
difficulties faced by researchers carrying out their jobs, to also | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
highlight some of the clear inconsistencies in drug laws in | :57:34. | :57:35. | |
relation to cannabis and thd fact that I think, or importantlx, to | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
highlight the fact that drugs that we consider much more potentially | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
harmful if used by the publhc, heroine or diamorphine, which is a | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
schedule to drugs, is schedtled under that schedule or as c`nnabis, | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
which we now know there is ` growing body of evidence to show thdre is | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
medicinal benefit to using, is a schedule one Bronco, God. There is | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
inconsistency. -- schedule one drug. That is something I believe the | :58:06. | :58:07. | |
government does need to look into. But in particular, I would be very | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
grateful for my right honourable friend's comments on how we could | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
facilitate and ease the process of legitimate research without | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
criminalising researchers. Would he also agree with me that there is a | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
real anomaly when a drug such as DNP, which has caused to so many | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
deaths of young people, which is taken as a drug for body-buhlding or | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
to improve people's percepthon of their body image, is now cl`ssified | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
that it falls between so many stools that it is impossible to get it | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
banned, despite the deaths that it has caused and the damage it is | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
doing? I think my right honourable friend speaks wisely and indeed | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
actually, on that subject, looking at rescheduling, under schedule for, | :58:54. | :59:00. | |
steroids are under section four two of the misuse of drugs regulation, | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
and they are often a drug that are misused by body-builders and | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
sometimes by other athletes. And yet, I mentioned the exampld of | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
diamorphine, or heroine, behng a schedule to drug and I think there | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
is a clear and compelling c`se now, both from the growing medic`l | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
evidence but also because of the barriers to research, to look at | :59:25. | :59:31. | |
rescheduling of cannabis, btt more broadly even before we get to that | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
point, I know there is more that we can do to make it easier to research | :59:35. | :59:37. | |
the link between cannabis and mental health, support the research and | :59:38. | :59:46. | |
hopefully move towards a position whereby we are in a better position, | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
not just through legislation were discussing today to protect the | :59:52. | :59:53. | |
public with regards to psychoactive substances but also on the basis of | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
this bill, improve our care of a number of the most abominable | :59:58. | :59:59. | |
patients that our health service looks after. -- of the most | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
vulnerable patients. Look forward to hearing the response and thd debate | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
later on. I rise to support new clause one and amendment for and I | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
would like to start by congratulating my honourabld friend | :00:19. | :00:20. | |
on the front bench for the dxcellent way she set out the reasoning behind | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
why new clause one and amendment for need to be incorporated into the | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
bill. I would also like to say that it has been six years now, H think, | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
since he seriously started to discuss in Parliament white PS HD | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
should be made compulsory. Ht is with great regret that we dhd not | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
manage to do it when we werd in power. At the very end of the 2 10 | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
Labour Government, it was going to be made a statutory part of the | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
National Curriculum. There was a very good case made for it. It was | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
building on that late skills and building confidence and reshlience | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
in young people that we all accept needs to be happening. To mdet the | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
challenges young people facd in the modern world, include and how you | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
deal with drugs and these ndw psychiatric substances. And it was | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
with great regret that in the wash of that final months leading up to | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
the election in 2010, we were not able to secure the support of the | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
Conservatives to actually gdt that change to the law. I also w`nted to | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
refer to the UK drug policy commission, who spent six ydars we | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
on what our policies around drugs should be in this country. Their | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
findings on drugs education was this, the best drugs educathon is | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
best delivered in an evidence -based life skills programme, and that is | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
why I think PSHE been made compulsory is really import`nt. And | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
why doesn't need to be statttory? The education select committee in a | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
report last year said there is a lack of clarity on the statts of the | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
subject. This must change and we accept the items that statutory | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
status is needed for PSHE. The reasons for that is because we know | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
that it is variable all arotnd the country. In some schools th`t are | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
stored very well but in manx schools it is not what will it all. The | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
reason for that is because ht is not statutory. It is not a subjdct that | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
is measured bust up we know that head teachers will have an dye all | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
the time to making sure that there are schools and pupils do bdst in | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
what is measured. I have to say that that is the compelling argulent for | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
me to make sure that we havd a level playing field across all schools. | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
They all have to provide st`tutory PSHE and other important re`son why | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
it is important for it to bd statutory is because if you make it | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
statutory, you have to ensure that teachers are properly traindd. One | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
of the big problems with thd way PSHE is delivered today in this | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
country is that it is often the teacher who perhaps have a little | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
bit more time in their timetable to teach PSHE. It is perhaps the PE | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
teacher who takes response `bility to stop but it is not a teacher who | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
has got the level and depth of training required if you're going to | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
teach this subject properly. We know, as my honourable friend from | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
the front bench said, many students say they only have one hour of drugs | :03:12. | :03:19. | |
education in their schools. At the moment, we are relying on the | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
goodwill and charities and other organisations to provide information | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
to our young people and I think that is wrong. But I do want to pay | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
tribute to Angelus because H think the work that they have dond, and | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
the organisation of course was set up and very sad circumstancds by | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
Marion Stewart, who lost her own daughter, who took GBL not knowing | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
what it was and very, very sadly died, but Marion has really thought | :03:45. | :03:46. | |
hard for this piece of legislation to be put on the statute books. She, | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
I am sure, would be the first to say that we actually need to make sure | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
that I people are educated. It is not just about changing the law it | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
is about making sure that young people make good decisions for | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
themselves. I also just want to refer to an organisation in my own | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
constituency called Real also tried to get information out to young | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
people in Hull to explain about legal highs. I know we have had a | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
debate is already about how we describe legalise, and of I think it | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
is right we refer to them as psychoactive substances rather than | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
legal highs. But this is all relying on goodwill and charity and that is | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
why I think it is vital that these amendments will be accepted by the | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
front bench. Before the Minhster responds, I also just want to say | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
one thing about Frank. My honourable friend also referred to this. Frank | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
is not good enough. It really isn't! If the government are seriots about | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
making sure that young people do have information to make good | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
choices in their lives, Frank is not the delivery mechanism for that So | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
we know that young people gdnerally have called for to be made | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
statutory. It was one of the campaign hs that | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
the youth Parliament a few xears ago supported and run with. We know | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
parents support this and want to see it brought into schools. We know the | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
education select committee ` cross-party --, a cross-party group | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
of MPs and this has, supported. It is clear to me that we do nded to | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
equip our young people with late skills to make good decisions. We | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
also need, of course, to eqtip the police with the powers that they | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
need to enforce the law agahnst those who exploit and harm `nd | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
damage young people in parthcular. So I hope the Minister, who annoys a | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
sensible man and relies verx often on his good sense and common sense, | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
will really think hard about whether rejecting these amendments today | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
will benefit the country and the young people but we all in this | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
House want to make sure our projected and able to make good and | :05:51. | :05:52. | |
healthy decisions for their lives. It is characteristic of much of the | :05:53. | :06:05. | |
debates around the bill that there has been a consensus around this. I | :06:06. | :06:16. | |
recognise the efforts made by the Minister to bring it to the table | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
and recognise it has been done to some pace. It is something that the | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
Home Affairs Select Committde, we sought to keep up with. We wanted to | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
make sure we added our pennxworth to the debate and scrutiny and | :06:31. | :06:45. | |
hopefully it has help. In some ways, if one wishes a blanket ban on one | :06:46. | :06:57. | |
wants to deal with it, therd are some anomalies or some concdrns and | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
we have had other amendments around other seemingly harmless substances | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
which may be tied into a bl`nket ban. I will give the governlent as | :07:07. | :07:15. | |
much scope as possible to h`ng around what is the target of this | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
bill, which is those evil pliers of the trade, this new substances | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
coming to the market and th`t is where the target should be. In many | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
ways, while there has been ` lot of natural concern around poppdrs and | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
wanting not to come in lies personal use of poppers, but that is of the | :07:36. | :07:45. | |
target of the bill. I want to focus on education because it is hmportant | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
that we ensure there is enotgh communication out there to deal with | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
this issue, to have a profotnd effect. That we make the most of the | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
opportunity to educate everxone out there about the harms caused by NPS | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
is. I've been involved in drugs policy. Time. That being -- I have | :08:09. | :08:17. | |
been involved in this for a number of years. It is not surprishng to me | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
that on the benches at the loment, there is no representatives from the | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
Department for Education. It is also the case that while it was ` well | :08:31. | :08:39. | |
attended IMG, that led to the drugs strategy in 2010, it has to be said | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
the Department for Education was one of the most difficult departments to | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
come to the table. I am sayhng this because it is relevant to assist the | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
minister in wanting to ensure that communication gets out therd, | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
education is prioritised because I do not believe the department has | :08:57. | :08:57. | |
been as forthcoming as it should be. We should see they are serious about | :08:58. | :09:14. | |
wanting to educate young people about the harms of NPS. I s`y these | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
comments in relation to new clause one. I think that in the review even | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
though we have urged the Minister and government to include education | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
in the review, to say yes wd will look at how we have done on | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
education and how we have spread the word about harms. The government | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
says we have the strategic `nd indications plan, they said it to | :09:42. | :09:50. | |
the Home Affairs Select Comlittee. We had revealed from a question that | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
was tabled by the Honourabld member for West Ham, there are no specific | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
funds set aside for the plans implementation. Can I perhaps, in | :10:00. | :10:11. | |
case I forget later on, say that it will be part of the review on how we | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
have actually done with educating young people. I will respond to the | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
Honourable Lady in a moment to do with the financial point of view. | :10:20. | :10:28. | |
Perhaps I won't have this responsibility in the near future so | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
perhaps it is good that at the dispatch box that it will | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
categorically be part of thd review. Amendment number four, is in effect | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
what the Minister is committing too. It is welcome. When I was on the IMG | :10:46. | :10:55. | |
through for Home Office minhsters recognising the commitment of my | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
honourable friend to tackling drugs. While there has been a rollhng door | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
of ministers, what still hasn't been the commitment, the involvelent of | :11:04. | :11:13. | |
the Department for Education has to be shown. The only two countries in | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
the world that have passed similar legislation to the spill has seen | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
large increases in the use of these drugs, N Ireland from 16% to 22 and | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
in Poland a level increase of 3 , the biggest in their historx. Is | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
this bill going to have the same bad effect? I am not convinced by the | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
premise put forward by the Honourable member. It is cldar and | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
the evidence coming through from Ireland is that there is success in | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
relation to the blanket ban. They have seen the closure of he`d shops | :11:52. | :12:04. | |
and access for MPS is. -- NPS. In relation to tackling what is the | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
most significant change in drugs legislation since 1971, this is what | :12:10. | :12:11. | |
everyone agrees is a huge significant change. And I think | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
progress in tackling what is very much the new drugs on the m`rket. It | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
is not matched with the samd commitment to education and | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
providing funding for inforlation about this piece of legislation If | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
one looks at what the Department for Transport spent in relation to | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
developing and delivering and evaluating communications c`mpaigns | :12:36. | :12:46. | |
to ensure awareness of drug driving, 1.952 million pounds was spdnt on | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
that communication exercise to deal with particularly driving under the | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
influence of cannabis. We don't see that same commitment to what is a | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
significant legislation and we need to see where it is going to come | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
from to make sure that the good words expressed in the strategic | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
mitigation plan do actually have a real effect because we need the | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
public to be informed. Therd needs to be a strategy to cover social | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
media, the Angelus foundation needs to be involved. For them not to be | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
involved with Frank is frankly ridiculous. It is something that | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
needs to change. Frank needs to communicate better with Angdlus and | :13:29. | :13:37. | |
learn from them. I look forward to hearing from the Minister to get | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
some reassurance on that. If I could just briefly touched on to `nother | :13:42. | :13:50. | |
aspect. I want to link cann`bis to clause six which deals when there | :13:51. | :14:03. | |
are arrests with class a drtgs, I want to just highlight the big issue | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
along with NPSs with young people is their use alongside cannabis. If you | :14:09. | :14:19. | |
go to court, you would see xoung people impacted by cannabis. There | :14:20. | :14:34. | |
justice have their hands tidd behind their back in terms of getthng young | :14:35. | :14:44. | |
people the treatment that they need. A holistic attention to tre`tment is | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
needed. We need to get up to speed and the review needs to convince us | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
that it is doing that. Briefly on poppers, I was in the committee | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
raising the concerns raised on a half of many people about the band | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
and I am pleased that the government has come to the point where they are | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
seriously going to look at the evidence and exempting poppdrs. | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
There is some complications in this. I raised the fact that therd is | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
control around the supply of poppers. There needs to be ` look at | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
all of these areas because where there is commonality is the problem | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
in relation to poppers is the way they are abused and the substance | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
that comes out becomes a harmful substance. Historically that has | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
been the case and that is where the reference to Home Office about | :15:40. | :15:49. | |
historical harms. It should not lead to a 11th hour conversion. Ht is | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
encouraging but somewhat disappointing that we are still at | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
this late stage looking at exemptions. I am willing to look at | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
evidence because it is complicated. We do not want the blanket ban to be | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
deluded and we need to know this is done properly with evidence. There | :16:12. | :16:21. | |
are lots of other issues to speak about but I would like to ghve way. | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
I would like to say this is a force of good to protect young people I | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
start by saying to the Minister that I support the bill, I support the | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
aims. I closed the second rdading debate of this bill in the chamber | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
because we on the side of the House felt that it was important to not | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
just be this as a Home Office bill, although that is where it is placed, | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
but also in terms of its public health aspects as well and so as | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
Labour shadow public health minister I have been very keen to promote | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
some of the public health issues on this and I would like to colmend the | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
work done my honourable fridnd the Minister for West Ham who I think | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
who has led outside of the House in proceedings in committing and today | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
in an exemplary fashion. I `lso want to say to the Minister in stpporting | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
this bill, I want to make it as good as it can be and I do think there | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
are a number of areas where this bill isn't as strong as it ought to | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
be and that is why I am protd to support my honourable friend the | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
member for West Ham in tablhng a number of amendments today. | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
Particularly I would like to talk on two of those. Firstly new clause one | :17:44. | :17:52. | |
on the P H S E. And also amdndment five relating to poppers. I think | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
both have an important publhc health aspect to them. First if I could | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
talk to new clause one and says that in an intervention I raised the fact | :18:04. | :18:11. | |
that Simon Stephens who has a five-year forward view for the NHS | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
has identified ?5 billion worth of savings that can be reinvested into | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
the NHS as a consequence of prevention. I do not believd firstly | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
that this government was wise to cut ?200 million from the public health | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
budget because I think that is the very kind of prevention that isn't | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
then going to bear fruit in year five of the five-year forward view. | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
Attach any one area where the government could redeem itsdlf in | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
terms of public health work is it by adopting new clause one. Because I | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
have always viewed it as a weakness that we do not have in this country | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
statutory P H S E. A lot of schools do PSHE but it is a kind of | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
something else, it is added on to the curriculum. It is not ghven the | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
focus that it really ought to be given. And if we are serious about | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
tackling the whole range of health inequalities, then I think we can | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
start from a very young age through having statutory PSHE. And hn the | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
context of this bill if we `re going to talk about the dangers of | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
tobacco, the dangers of alcohol and the dangers of drugs, and also talk | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
about sex and relationships, actually, we need to do that in the | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
context of a statutory framdwork in all of our schools. There are huge | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
public health benefits for doing that and I think if the Minhster | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
when he comes to consider the views that have been given today, he could | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
do nothing better than to actually read in Hansard, the contribution of | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
my honourable friend the melber for Hull North. I think she got it spot | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
on. The real benefits of having proper statutory PSHE in schools I | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
think is very clear and would really strengthen the aims and ambhtions of | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
this bill. The second thing is to talk about our amendment five | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
relating to poppers. Becausd in the short time that I have been Labour | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
shadow public health ministdr I have met with lots of charities `nd | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
organisations in the public health world. A lot of them includhng drug | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
abuse charities raise lots of issues with me. Not one of them in all the | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
time that I have been shadowing the public health role has raisdd | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
poppers as a issue. I will tell the Minister who has raised poppers with | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
me and that is a large numbdr of LGBT charities and organisations, | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
and there is a public health role here and I think the honour`ble | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
gentleman, the member for Fhnchley and Golders Green made some very | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
important points, not just on the health and well-being of gax and | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
lesbian people but also on some of the mental health issues and the | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
relationship issues surrounding what we are discussing to day. Btt there | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
is also a wider public health issue and it is this, that many of these | :21:28. | :21:37. | |
organisations that I have mdt with, and to give one example, thd | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
National AIDS Trust, have s`id to me that it is a balance of risks. And | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
we have heard that there ard some small risks involved with alkyl | :21:48. | :22:03. | |
nitrites. And the honourabld gentleman raised the anecdotal | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
evidence that it could causd damage to eyesight, that I would s`y to the | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
Minister this, balance the risks of that which are very small whth the | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
risks of contracting a sexu`lly transmitted infection. Becatse it | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
has been put to me, and I think there is some credence in this | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
argument, that there are two scenarios. One is that two gay men | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
will have protected sex with poppers that makes banal sex easier, all | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
will alternatively use other substances if poppers are not | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
available. It may be class ` or class B drugs, it may be alcohol, | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
that any of those substances unlike poppers run the risk of potdntially | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
having unsafe sex. And that increases the risk of both the | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
contraction of HIV, hepatiths C and a string of other sexually | :23:05. | :23:05. | |
transmitted infections. The other point is that this is | :23:06. | :23:18. | |
potentially discriminatory `gainst a group of people who are doing no | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
harm and just want to enjoy themselves in a sexual relationship. | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
So I urge the Minister, think very carefully about whether the | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
intention of this bill is to do something in the way that hd wants | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
it to be done or the way th`t we wanted to be done. Because this | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
Minister is known for common sense, and I credit him with that. He is | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
straight talking and does h`ve a modicum of sense that some of his | :23:48. | :23:56. | |
colleagues do not often display And I am being kind to the Minister | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
there, who I have a great ddal of respect for. Because I do not | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
understand the logic in banning poppers to look at the eviddnce to | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
perhaps then on ban poppers, and the mixed messages that sends ott. If | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
his review comes forward with enough evidence to warrant the banning of | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
poppers that I will support him all the way. But actually I am not in | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
the job of banning things for banning's sake, only to makd them | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
not banned again. Common sense, back amendment five because that is the | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
right approach to this. In which case, Norman Lamb. Thank yot to be | :24:39. | :24:46. | |
called slightly earlier than I had been expecting. I rise to speak in | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
support of the amendments that I have tabled and I guess takdn | :24:53. | :25:00. | |
together they seek to challdnge the approach that the government as | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
taken with this legislation. I suspect a lot of actually share the | :25:07. | :25:14. | |
same objective. We are concdrned, surely, about harm. And we want to | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
seek to reduce harm. Includhng to our loved ones, from the risks that | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
drugs, both legal and illeg`l, do to people. As a father myself, I happen | :25:28. | :25:35. | |
to be rather hostile to drugs, I am hostile to the excessive usd of | :25:36. | :25:45. | |
illegal drugs because of thd harm that is done. I challenge the | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
approach taken by this legislation. I will return to it but the rate | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
honourable lady for Cheshird and Amersham made the point abott the | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
risk of making bad law. It seems to me that there is a real risk that | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
seductive though it is to go down the way the government is t`king, I | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
think we've face the risk of legislating for bad law. Our | :26:09. | :26:19. | |
objective should be harm reduction and he should base is legislation | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
Shirley on evidence of what works. If I can spare to the Home Office's | :26:24. | :26:31. | |
on 2014 report on drugs into rational comparators, it fotnd that, | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
and I quote, there is no apparent correlation between the toughness of | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
a country's approach and thd prevalence of adult drug usd. The | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
great risk is, and the honotrable member for Newport West has made | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
this point, that honourable members both on the government benches and | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
opposition benches assume that this will reduce | :26:53. | :27:08. | |
the use of these substances, but the evidence points in the opposite | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
direction, as the honourabld member has made clear. And I refer to the | :27:12. | :27:20. | |
fantastic speech by the honourable member for Reigate, speaking very | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
openly and candidly. He makds the point, as others have done, that | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
this bill, in respect of poppers, but actually cross the, drives users | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
into the hands of criminals. The question is, what criminal has your | :27:37. | :27:38. | |
interests at heart? Of course they do not. I would just urge honourable | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
members to think before thex vote for this role legislation, because | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
that is precisely what we are doing. Not only that, we are massively | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
increasing the profits of criminals and Gromit works. And let md also | :27:57. | :28:05. | |
make the point that the United nations office for drugs and crime | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
has made the point that there is a clear link between illicit drugs and | :28:11. | :28:18. | |
the profits made from illicht drugs and terrorism. The funding of | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
terrorism. It makes the point about what has happened in Afghanhstan, | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
with money raised from the sale of cocaine fed into the hands of the | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
Taliban, who then use their money, their resources... I will not give | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
away because I am conscious that time is tight and I will get into | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
trouble from the Speaker. Wd should think before we act. Mr Deptty | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
Speaker, new clause five urges her review of the misuse of drugs act so | :28:48. | :28:57. | |
that we determine policy on the basis of evidence, not bridges. New | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
clause six out of a decriminalisation of use of drugs, | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
taking the approach used in Portugal, where we have seen | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
evidence showing a reduction in harm as a result of that policy. New | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
clause three, which are verx happily join with my former honourable | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
friend, colleague in the Department of Health, in arguing for the case | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
for facilitating research into the potential medicinal value of | :29:25. | :29:34. | |
cannabis. And my amendment 24 argues for legalising the possession of | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
cannabis for medicinal use. Surely we should not be criminalishng | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
people who use cannabis to relieve pain, and yet that is what we do in | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
this country. It is madness. Finally, new clause four argues that | :29:51. | :29:57. | |
surely we should only be banning substances under this legislation | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
after they have been referrdd to the advisory Council on the mistse of | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
drugs so that a judgment, an objective judgment, can be lade | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
about whether that particul`r substance causes social harl. And | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
that of course is in line whth amendment five. Mr Deputy Speaker, | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
we are about to commit an act of total madness. Banning poppdrs. And | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
then removing the band just a few months down the track. It m`kes | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
absolutely no sense at all `nd is the honourable member for Howden | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
said, it absolutely brings the law into disrepute. So, Mr Tebbht is | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
bigger, I conclude by saying that the approach taken in this bill is | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
seductive. People are fearftl of the effects of these products. ,- Mr | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
Deputy Speaker. It is alternately bad law and will have precisely the | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
wrong effect. I would like to speak to the amendments today just to | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
express my broad support of what the government is trying to do to stop | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
at the beginning of this wedk, this is a major issue implements, your | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
local paper ran a story abott an individual who drowned in a local | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
harbour in October 2014. A toxicology report show that among | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
the number of other drugs, hllegal I was present in his system. Sadly, I | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
need only look back a furthdr five days in the same paper to fhnd | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
another story about these chemicals, which have now become a hunting | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
menace to society. -- haunthng menace. Over Christmas, I wdnt and | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
served Christmas lunch to the homeless at the hostels and they are | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
being plagued outside of thdse hostels by people selling these | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
illegal highs. It is a real problem in Plymouth. Not only that, I got | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
with the emergency services at least once a month and you see thd | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
challenge that is presented to our law enforcement by these substances. | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
I fully support the Minister in his efforts to identify the new | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
psychoactive substances and react more quickly to them. I ran a | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
campaign briefly prior to Christmas are attempting to raise awareness of | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
these prior to the festive period. I strongly support other councils and | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
I would like Plymouth to le`d the way in this in terms of getting | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
these substances banned loc`lly before this psychoactive substances | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
bill comes through. But ulthmately, this comes on to a key thing for me. | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
We often talk in this House of how we support those who challenge the | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
most challenging parts of society, such as police officers and prison | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
officers. They strongly support what we are doing here. It is not good | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
enough simply to stand up in the House of commons and say we don t | :32:47. | :32:48. | |
support the portable isn't fully support risen officers and then not | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
give them the tools to do it, which is what I think the stars. That is | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
why a supporter of the government's position on this. -- this is what I | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
think this is. Can I point out one major error before I start, and that | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
is a picture of me has been widely read we did by members of the House. | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
It was taken from American television, where tens of mhllions | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
of people were informed in the caption under my picture th`t I was | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
the leader of the Labour Party! CHEERING | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
I just wanted to point that this information is premature! I am | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
generally sweet describing this bill as being a landmark in legislative | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
futility. It is in fact worse than that. This bill will do harl as all | :33:36. | :33:43. | |
the other Prohibition bills in the 28 years that I have been hdre have. | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
They have all gone harm. Thd committee does not seem to have | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
considered what has happened with the two bills in the two cotntries | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
that have passed them, Bill is very similar to this. In Ireland, | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
certainly the shops closed down of course they did, they were hllegal. | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
And the website also. But they were replaced by illegal shops. They were | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
replaced by a market that is criminal. It is a responsible. The | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
market increased among young people in Ireland for using these drugs | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
from 16% of the population to 2 %. These are figures from the Duropean | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
monitoring Centre for drug `buse. In Poland, the increase went up by 3% | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
to stop we have now got the countries that have passed similar | :34:37. | :34:38. | |
bills have the greatest use of psychoactive drugs in the world | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
This will be counter-productive In 1971, we passed the misuse of drugs | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
act. We then had 1000 addicts of cocaine and heroin in Britahn. We | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
have now got 300,000. I wish members would consider the possibilhty that | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
what they are doing, the iddas they have, that the conventional wisdom | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
is the conventional stupidity. It would be madness to ban poppers as | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
everyone says. This bill should be considered on the evidence `lone. | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
Whilst we support the attempt to live cannabis into an area where | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
scientists should work on it, that of an approach not based on | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
superstition, rumour or prejudice but based on science. That should be | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
supported. Thank you, I will be brief. I really wanted to elphasise | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
that it is important, so many elements of this bill, but ht really | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
is essential that it is strdngthened and strengthened in the field of | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
education. New clause one rdally does address that. It does `nswer | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
paragraph 76 of the Home Affairs Select Committee report, whhch says | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
its excessive government spdnding on education on the dangers have been | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
shockingly inadequate to date. Action must be taken now to educate | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
young people. Therefore, thdre is a plea and recognition that there has | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
been an absence of that education. This is not about politics, this is | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
about evidence -based practhce and that is why I'm all for the | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
government will support the new clause one. Who provides th`t | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
education is also vital. Tr`ined professionals, school nurses, public | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
health workers have other qualifications to deliver the | :36:24. | :36:25. | |
programme for the base is not about putting more pressure on te`chers | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
but enabling health professhonals to do their job. Therefore, I would ask | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
the Minister to look at this issue with due consideration to m`ke sure | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
that the full public health agenda is brought in, because the reality | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
is if you do not couple this bill with public health, and the | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
education agenda around that, its impact will be lessened. Thdrefore, | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
really to make sure this bill has real impact and to make surd it does | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
deliver the results, if we can put that education in and the only | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
systematic way my last point -- the only systematic way of achidving | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
this will be through the PSHE programme. | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
I will be brief as well. I would like to thank the other members of | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
the Bill committee. It was ly first bill committee experience. | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
Ministers, the Shalaman is 's and other members of the committee, I | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
felt it was very clear from that experience that everyone was | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
pointing in one direction -, ministers, shadow and is is. | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
Ultimately, we want to get to the same point. I would like to echo the | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
comments of Mike honourable friend from Glasgow North East in support | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
of the amendments proposed. I would like to echo the comments of a | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
number of colleagues at the Bill committee stage. I raised the point | :37:48. | :37:55. | |
around poppers. At that point it was made that we want a blanket ban how | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
could we possibly have exemptions? There are exemptions within the | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
Bill, there is a president to do this. The process that has been made | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
to include an exemption and then have the study to continue that | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
work, rather than banning it, having to do that and pick a mess that we | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
would have to undo honour is a far more sensible approach. I would hope | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
that the number of voices around the chamber, to that end, will hopefully | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
reach the minister and tell us that that is a conclusion he has come to | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
himself, and that is a position we will take. I don't want to take up | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
too much time, I am very aw`re of the pressures and the keenndss to | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
get onto the second group of amendments so, with that, I will | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
conclude. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It has | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
been said several times that perhaps this bill should have been brought | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
forward a lot earlier, many years ago, and one of the reasons that it | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
has not and was not as becatse it was so difficult. Can I say to my | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
Liberal Democrat friend, whdn Lynne Featherstone was in my job, she was | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
100% in support of this bill. I know it has been a tough time for the | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
Liberal Democrats, but perh`ps she was right in many of the thhngs that | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
she said and have been brought forward. I will not comment any | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
further, we disagree profoundly and we will oppose the amendment is he | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
will not be surprised. I want to get onto the second group, so I think it | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
is important we make progress. However, there have been many, many | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
very important speeches madd in the House this afternoon incompletely | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
the right tone and attitude of what we are trying to do, protect people. | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
All through committee, one of the things I try to make sure w`s to | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
keep that at the forefront. We may disagree in specific parts, we have | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
heard disagreements within the chamber today, we may slightly | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
disagree on methodology but, at the end of the day, my responsibility as | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
a minister standing up this dispatch botch with my other governmdnts | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
colleagues who have worked closely with me, and I want some of them to | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
work even more closely on the Bill and the review that we have | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
committed to. So what I will try to do is speak to amendment ond, then | :40:23. | :40:30. | |
try to take up some of the hssues taken up in other amendments, then | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
come back if I can, to amendment five, poppers, I think that is what | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
has taken up most time in the chamber and probably one of the only | :40:40. | :40:47. | |
areas we slightly disagree on, and that will only be on how we do it | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
rather than what we are going to do. Can I say at the set, Mr Deputy | :40:51. | :40:59. | |
Speaker, this bill is, as I said, not a golden bullet. It is not the | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
be all and end all. The leghslation of just saying this is a bl`nket | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
ban, a brand-new type of legislation, we have not had that | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
type of legislation before, and it needs to be worked through, | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
particularly with two or three other departments, the Justice Department, | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
obviously, because we are m`king it a criminal defence. I sit in that | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
department so that is helpftl, the health Department, lots of the | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
issues are to do with health, public health and the prevention of other | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
diseases, in particular this could affect, and I will come back to | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
that, but as amendment to ndw clause one indicates, particularly around | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
education. One of the things I learned when I went to the Republic | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
of Ireland and met with minhsters, scientists and Felice, as to how | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
they are there, which is close to this but not identical, how it | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
worked, one of the biggest things they said was you need to gdt it out | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
there, you need to make surd that young people, but not exclusively | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
young people, as we have discovered today, no disrespect to my | :42:09. | :42:09. | |
honourable friend from radi`tor this is not all about young people, | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
it is across the age profild, so I apologise if I refer to young people | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
too often. I will give way, but I will not give away too much because | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
we want to get onto the next group. I think we could learn from the | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
Welsh schools liaison progr`mme which sees drug education awareness | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
delivered in 97% of primary and secondary schools in Wales. | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
With devolution, different governments in different parts of | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
this great nation of ours are delivering. It is very earlx days. I | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
fully respect that. Part of the review which I committed to was that | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
we would look very carefullx as to not only how we have done it but | :42:53. | :42:59. | |
other parts. And we will look to the Republic of Ireland as well. I know | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
we discussed this at committee, and the Shadow men was in a verx deep | :43:04. | :43:12. | |
learning curve at a time, I do think we can do it without the st`tutory | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
requirements with in the legislation. The Shadow Minhster | :43:18. | :43:25. | |
referred to ?118,000. The l`test figure we have is ?341 millhon on | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
interventions and education, tackling drug misuse. A lot. ?3 1 | :43:32. | :43:41. | |
million. I accept, but at the start, that Frank isn't perfect. | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
Absolutely. It needs to be hmproved. I don't want to just scrap something | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
and bring something in with a different name. They need to work, | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
very much so, with the Angelus Foundation and others, becatse the | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
voluntary sector is often mtch better than Government, which is why | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
the previous administration and this administration have used | :44:08. | :44:09. | |
extensively, and we need to use them more. If I can possibly spe`k to a | :44:10. | :44:18. | |
couple of the... If I can m`ke some progress, if I have time I will come | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
back. I know from the speech made by my right honourable friend the | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
member for Cheshire and and Amersham that there was concern is that | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
non-Psychoactive Substances Bill would be brought into that. This is | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
specifically about psychoactive substances. We would not be catching | :44:39. | :44:46. | |
the type of products that the honourable lady has alluded to. We | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
will keep a close eye. We h`ve an ability under clause three hn the | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
bill to take things out. Th`t clause is not designed to bring thhngs in, | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
which was slightly confusing during the course of the debate thhs | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
afternoon. When I come onto poppers, I will explain that slightlx better. | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
At the moment, I want to make regress if I can, then I will come | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
back if I have time -- I want to make progress. I spoke with a | :45:16. | :45:23. | |
professor from Kings last M`y to do with research. We need rese`rch not | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
only within the help site btt with the law, to make sure we ard | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
evidence base. -- spoke with a professor from Kings last nhght We | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
need to make sure we are not preventing research. This bhll makes | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
provision for that, one of the amendments was looking at the | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
problems around cannabis, where we need to learn about the harls and | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
the benefits. I will ask my officials to continue that dialogue | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
when we leave the chamber. H think that is very important. | :45:59. | :46:06. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, I had a really, really interesting time... The | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
honourable member has hopped away... During the committee stage, with the | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
representative from the Scottish National party. In that we had a | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
very good dialogue with the ministers in Scotland, parthcularly | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
about one part of the bill which is a very, very important part, the | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
only part of the bill where we are making possession a criminal | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
offence, which is within secure facilities. That was at the request | :46:36. | :46:44. | |
of the Justice Department and the request of the prison officdrs and | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
other officers and from somd prisoner groups as well. It is a | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
menace particularly within our prisons. And your defenders | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
institutions. During this dhscussion is, which is why I was surprised | :46:58. | :47:06. | |
that many wanted to take it away from the criminal justice, both the | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
Scottish ministers and the Cabinet Secretary were both content that do | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
have an offence of possession in custodial streets as part of the | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
bill. I am not making comment on the Scottish administration, but we | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
worked really, really hard to make sure everyone was on board, so as | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
you imagine I cannot support the amendments that the Scottish | :47:34. | :47:35. | |
National Party have put down. The key to this bill is protecthng | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
people. I do not want to crhminalise every young person in the country or | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
every person that has been tsing these products legally but | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
dangerously for some considdrable time. But what is absolutelx | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
crucial, Mr Deputy Speaker, is that we do not get into a situathon where | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
the defence within the courts is I bought it for a couple of friends, | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
sold it to them, what is thd danger? It is a danger. | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
I give way. I am grateful. Hn that case, will he ensure that hd writes | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
to me about the substances that formed my amendment to this bill so | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
that I can reassure my constituents that they will not be breakhng the | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
law if they continue to be on offer online? | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
I am more than happy to write to my right honourable friend basdd on | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
knowing exactly what the substances are, and I think there is a problem | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
of communication that we nedd to have outside this chamber. H will | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
give way, then I will curtahl my comment so that decisions of this | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
house can be made and we can move on. | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
I am grateful. It is just on the question of not wanting to | :48:49. | :48:51. | |
criminalise, in particular, young people. The point made by the | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
Scottish Nationalists spokesperson, is it a case that the bill will | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
criminalise a young person who buys online from overseas but will not | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
criminalise someone who buys in an alleyway from a criminal? | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, we need to stop these products being available to | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
young, old, middle-aged, old people like me. It is absolutely crucial | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
that we do that. One of the ways, which we have heard in this chamber | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
today, is online. We need to make sure that the criminal offence of | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
someone selling it to someone else will be a criminal offence `nd have | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
the penalties it deserves. There is no point having a blanket b`n that | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
you don't act julienne forcd. I will not give way any mord, can I | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
just touch on probably the lost emotive, understandably, and a very | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
important part of this bill? Which is the amendment five which has been | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
put down by the opposition `nd front bench in particular, the honourable | :49:57. | :50:06. | |
lady for West Ham. I do not have any intent to make life difficult for | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
any individual group. My sole role as a minister at this dispatch box | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
is to protect. But when I fhrst looked at this bill and the | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
proposals and clauses in thhs bill, one of the things I asked straight | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
on is, OK, tell me about, and I knew very little about poppers, tell me | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
about poppers? One of the fhrst things put in front of me, one of | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
the first things, Mr Deputy Speaker, is that since 1993, these nhtrates | :50:38. | :50:45. | |
have been mentioned 20 times on a death certificate. Now, if ly role | :50:46. | :50:53. | |
is to protect, and if my role is to make sure this legislation does its | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
job, I saw that. And then after that, and quite late on, to be fair, | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
I started to listen to other groups, because it was the first tile that | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
they had asked me. It had gone through the Lords, through committee | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
stage, and at committee I offered to meet any group that wanted to see | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
me, as I always do, groups that would be affected by the poppers ban | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
came to see me and started to give evidence that, actually, it wasn't | :51:23. | :51:24. | |
as dangerous as I was alludhng to. So with that in mind, Mr Deputy | :51:25. | :51:36. | |
Speaker and can I pay tribute to my right honourable friend, for Golders | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
Green, I went away and with the help of the Home Secretary and others, | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
came up with what I think is a compromise. And it is a plan. I have | :51:48. | :51:57. | |
different types of evidence as the honourable gentleman for Finchley | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
and Golders Green said, but to me. Lets for once have an evidential | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
base to it. Stage one which will start immediately after this, | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
literally, has probably started in many ways, the M age are a will | :52:12. | :52:23. | |
start evidence gathering. -, the MHRA. Stage two, once they have | :52:24. | :52:30. | |
gathered it, there will be `n assessment by an independent, and I | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
stress, independent assessor, and we will come to a common agreelent It | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
will probably help with the select committee as to who those | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
individuals are. We will do this with the Department of Health. This | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
will not be Home Office led, it will be with the Department of Hdalth. | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
And then, following that, then we can come forward with a dechsion | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
which will be jointly made by the Secretary of State for Health and | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
the Home Secretary, and then if necessary, we can use regul`tions in | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
clause three for exemptions. Expect to do this by the summer recess A | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
commitment that we will do this by summer recess. I know others in the | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
House would like us to do whth the other way. I can't use closdly to do | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
that. We'd have to amend thd bill. I think that a compromise. I think | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
I've listened extensively across the House in the last couple of weeks | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
and in the other House. I know this will be difficult for indivhduals. I | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
fully respect their views btt I hope that everyone in the house holed | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
respects that I am trying to do the right thing to protect people. Thank | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Shotld this clause be read a second timd, those | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
in favour say I. Those against the No. | :53:56. | :54:13. | |
Should this clause be read ` second time? The tellers for the noes art | :54:14. | :54:23. | |
Sarah Newton and Guy Opperm`n. Order, order! That ayes to the | :54:24. | :06:35. | |
right, 241, the noes to the left, 207. The eyes to the right, two and | :06:36. | :06:45. | |
41, the noes to the left, 307. The noes habit, unlock. | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
We continue clause two, frol which it will be convenient to consider on | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
the selection paper. I call Lynne Brown. I rise to move | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
new clause two, and in doing so praise the work of my honourable | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
friend for Barrow in Furness and the local government Association. These | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
new powers in clause to our combo ball to closure powers for premises | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
serving alcohol under the lhcensing act 2003, and provide a helpful | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
interim power for local authorities when premises notices have been | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
ignored. I don't see why we should treat out that suspected of ignoring | :07:25. | :07:32. | |
warnings to stop selling anx more gently than those suspected to sell | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
alcohol illegally. Case Malthouse. I rise to speak to my amendlents two | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
and three, the first of which is to deal with a small anomaly in the | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
bill, the second to do with something more fundamental. It is | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
already access to that the selling of Psychoactive Substances Bill | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
children is a he crime which should attract an aggravated sentence, and | :07:59. | :08:07. | |
it contains and... Informathon that selling outside of a school should | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
issue an aggravated sentencd. It even more vulnerable or those who | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
live in children's homes, and I want to make it an aggravated offence to | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
sell outside a children's home. The Government is keen to rely on | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
sentencing guidelines to brhng these measures in, but the question arises | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
as to whether we should havd any aggravating factors at all. The | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
truth is that these provisions measured those exactly in the 1 71 | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
misuse of drugs act, and as far as I can see that is the only re`son why | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
children's homes are being dxcluded from the act. I would asked to | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
consider the logic of selling them outside of children's homes, | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
alongside schools. I am seeking to make an aggravated offence to sell | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
these substances to anybody and 18. The law for the protection of | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
children in this country is patchy, elderly and confused. In particular, | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
it does not privileged children as a group against him committing a crime | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
is particularly serious. We privilege lots of groups, those of a | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
religious faith, particular ethnicity or sexuality that if a | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
crime is committed against them because of who they are, th`t is | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
more serious insensitive and -- sentencing terms. Children `re not | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
among that group. I would lhke to make the sale to anyone unddr 1 a | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
more serious offence in the eyes of a judge and to attract more serious | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
sentence. I do this in the hope that any future criminal Justice Bill | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
which appears or sentencing Bill, we can do what this house did hn 2 12 | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
when it made the transgender community and aggravated fe`ture, | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
that any offence against thdm attracted a stiffer sentencd, we | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
could do the same for children. It is time we focused on some dlderly | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
children's legislation and brought it up to date, the first stdp being | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
sending a signal to the courts and to the public in general th`t we see | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
children as worthy of speci`l protection. | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Many apologies for the confusion, I | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
thought this was coming latdr. If I can just speak really briefly, I am | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
grateful to yourself for having allocated time for this and I would | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
just impress upon the Government that they ought to consider this as | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
an extra act of protection. I think it is a really good step forward | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
that we are bringing in the blanket ban which, for many on both sides of | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
the house, we have been calling for for some time. But there is a | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
significant gap between being able to decide that the police all local | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
authority, seeing that the substances are being traded, and | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
then being able to apply for a court order and get a court order granted. | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
This amendment would simply allow an interim ban to be placed whhle the | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
court order is heard. And if it turned out to be misplaced, there | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
could be a conversation of some kind, but it gave communitids the | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
extra protection they need `nd deserve in these circumstances. | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
Thank you, and I apologise that my comments will have to be sure to | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
because of the time. Can I speak to amendment two, I fully understand | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
where we are coming from. I believe that the judicial oversight is very | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
important. The gentleman totched on the fact that we have to colpensate | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
if we get it wrong. I don't want to get it wrong. I believe we can get | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
it in the courts quickly, and we do that within other business on the | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
courts quickly, to get judgds to make that decision. Two amendments | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
two and three, I also fully understand the logic why under the | :12:03. | :12:10. | |
old legislation, in the 1970 act, we specifically designate schools, that | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
is because of the Misuse Of Drugs Act 1971. I absolutely agred that we | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
should bring legislation up to date, I believe the sentencing cotncil is | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
that place in a modern democracy, but I must reiterate that under | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
section 125 in brackets one of the corridors and Justice act, courts | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
are under the same obligations to consider aggregated factors, whether | :12:39. | :12:47. | |
they are in this bill. Sadlx, while they fully understand both sections | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
of the changes of the bill, sadly, on this occasion, I think wd need to | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
go with the bill as drafted. The question is that new cl`use two | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
be read a second time, as m`ny of that opinion say aye. The country | :13:02. | :13:03. | |
no. Division! Clear the lobby! Order, the question is that new | :13:04. | :14:28. | |
clause two... The question hs that new clause two be read a second | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
time, as many of that opinion say aye? The country no? The tellers for | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
the ayes, Sue Haven and Rae Morris, and for the nose... -- noes... | :14:39. | :22:38. | |
Order, order! The ayes to the right, 227, the noes to the left, 306. The | :22:39. | :26:03. | |
ayes to the right, 227, the noes to the left, 306. The noes habht. | :26:04. | :26:11. | |
Locke. -- the noes have it. And the order of the House, I must put the | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
questions necessary to bring to a conclusion all the remaining | :26:17. | :26:26. | |
proceedings. The question is that amendment 14 be made as manx of that | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
opinion say aye, to the contrary, No. Division! | :26:33. | :27:51. | |
The question is that amendmdnt 4 be made, those of that opinion say aye, | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
to the contrary, No. Order! Order! The ayes to the right, | :27:58. | :34:47. | |
47. The noes to the left, 307. The ayes to the right, 47, the noes | :34:48. | :37:39. | |
to the left, 307. The noes habit, the noes have it. Unlock. | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
Minister to move government amendment 69. The question hs that | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
government amendment six to nine be made, as many of that opinion say | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
aye, in country no? The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Colin Brown to | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
move on amendment five. The question is that amendment five be m`de. As | :38:04. | :38:13. | |
many of that opinion say ayd, as many not that opinion say no. | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
Division! Clear the lobbies Order! Order! The question hs that | :38:17. | :40:15. | |
amendment five be made, as lany of that opinion say aye, the country | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
no. The ayes, Sue Haven and Rae Morris, the noes, Sue Haven and guy. | :40:24. | :46:21. | |
Order! Order! The ayes to the right 228, the noes to the right... Left | :46:22. | :49:29. | |
309. The ayes to the right, 228, the noes | :49:30. | :49:37. | |
to the left, 309. The noes habit, the noes habit. Unlock. | :49:38. | :49:45. | |
Minister to move amendments ten and 11. The question is the govdrnment | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
amendment to ten and 11 be lade as many of that opinion say ayd, the | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
country no? The ayes have it, the ayes have it. We now come to the | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
consideration which has been completed in the reading. The | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
question is that the ministdr is now about to move, I understand? Link | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
you very much indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the outset of mx closing | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
remarks at third reading, this has been an experience. I fully | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
understand why previous minhsters and previous governments looked long | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
and hard at this bill, even though it was desperately needed, dven | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
though there was a lot of t`lk, and it didn't go very far. From the | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
outset, can I commend the work done by the Liberal Democrat minhsters on | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
the previous administration, of Norman Baker and Lynne Featherstone, | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
who were very much in the driving seat in the bill in preparing it to | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
come forward and, actually, in many ways, I would like to have seen the | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
bill come forward in the prdvious session, sorry, the previous | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
parliament, not least it wotld not have been me at the dispatch box | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
having to do so much! This `s an enormously important tool. Ht is not | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
perfect but it is an awful lot better than we had before -, this is | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
an enormously important bill. It has some minor, and I say mine, | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
amendments that need to be `ddressed in the other house. Mr Speaker, in | :51:16. | :51:27. | |
2014, there are 129 deaths hn Great Britain that the use of psychoactive | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
substances was implicated in. On the day that I announce that thhs bill | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
was going to come through, H took a call from a journalist in Scotland, | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
from Falkirk. Wanted a commdnt as to why I was doing it. And as H started | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
to talk to him, he actually said to me, there was a gentleman and a lady | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
in the area of Falkirk who had been to a head shop a couple of days | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
before and bought what they thought were safe, legal project... | :51:58. | :52:05. | |
Products, within hours he w`s dead and she was seriously, seriously | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
injured. I hope she has madd a full recovery, I passionately do. I am | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
conscious that we should not any more ever talk about a legal high | :52:15. | :52:23. | |
which is safe, or legal, or any other measure. If you take ` | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
substance, you have to realhse the dangers involved, and the education | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
part of this, which I know the Shadow Minister wanted us to be | :52:32. | :52:33. | |
strong on, we were were continuously on. -- we will work continuously on. | :52:34. | :52:41. | |
I thank the tone and the wax that this bill has been brought forward | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
quite speedily, as the chair of the select committee alluded to. There | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
was speedy work done by the select committee, speedy work done on the | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
Bill committee but, can I s`y, thank you to all members of the Bhll | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
committee. Some members of the committee had never taken a bill | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
through a Bill committee, particularly from the Scotthsh | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
National Party, and I pay tribute to the attitude and way that w`s done. | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
Can I also pay tribute to the devolved administration. Thhs bill | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
covers the whole of the United Kingdom. It is a very, very | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
important bill in the way wd have done it. In particular I want to pay | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
tribute to my honourable frhend for Finchley and would Green. Bdcause | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
there was no intent ever in this bill to make it difficult for any | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
individual or any groups. What we wanted to do and what I was | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
passionate about was to makd it safe in this country and we got `way from | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
the concept that something that was thought to be fun would be safe and | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
at the end of the day would take your life or the life of yotr loved | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
ones. My team, led by my Bill manager, have done excellent work as | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
well. It pays to bid to the work done before I was the Minister to | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
make it pays tribute, because of the background information and the way | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
we have understood that this bill could work. It's absolutely right | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
that the bill that this was similar to is not identical to the one | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
introduced some years ago in the Republic of Ireland because we have | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
learned from some mistakes lade there. And they are looking closely | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
at us now. Could I say also, Mr Deputy Speaker, that there `re other | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
countries around the world, we not alone in having our communities | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
blighted by these products. Around the world, other countries `re | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
trying to see what they can do. I've got a minister next week from far | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
away coming to talk to me and saying, how have you done this, can | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
we help you, so we can introduce similar things? Can I say there was | :54:47. | :54:54. | |
one major amendment, Mr Deptty Speaker, I hope it works very fast. | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
And that was the government amendment on possession within | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
custodial premises, in other words, in prison and other such | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
establishments. This was repuested, not by me, but the prisons linister. | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
He requested it because he had prison governors around the country, | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
the prison officers union and others, saying, this is out of hand | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
in prisons, we need help. A lot of people said there was legislation | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
that could have been used. Ht's absolutely implicit, on the face of | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
this bill, that possession within prison or other custodial premises, | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
it is a criminal offence. Nobody wanted to criminalise everyone in | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
possession, within these institutions it is important and I | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
hope that works really quickly, along with four incidents the | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
cameras being trialled in prisons now to prevent assaults on staff. Mr | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
Deputy Speaker, I am enormotsly proud to have brought this bill | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
through. I think it will save lives, as a father, I can only imagine what | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
others have gone through th`t have had their loved ones taken `way from | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
them or badly damaged. I panicked like hell when my daughters went to | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
university, they really sensible, they understood everything but they | :56:18. | :56:19. | |
could easily have been dragged into this situation that this was safe. | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
It was not safe and we have now made sure that everyone knows th`t. The | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
question is that the bill bd read a third time. Labour's 2015 m`nifesto | :56:30. | :56:40. | |
included a commitment to ban the sale of psychoactive substances We | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
believe that a blanket ban with listed exceptions is the most | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
effective means of beginning to tackle the serious public hdalth | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
problem these drugs have brought about and that is why we on these | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
benches support the bill. Wd have not agreed with the governmdnt on | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
every detail of the bill but we have been united in wanting the lost | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
effective legislation possible to tackle the scourge of these | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
dangerous substances and to curb the criminal fraternity who are pushing | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
them on our young people. I am greatly disappointed that the | :57:11. | :57:23. | |
government has chosen not to place Poppers on the exemptions lhst. I | :57:24. | :57:25. | |
believe this will undermine the bill and police users of Poppers, | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
especially men who have sex with men, at greater risk of harl. In | :57:29. | :57:30. | |
spite of our support for thd general approach of the bill we do not | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
believe that this legislation alone will tackle the issue. Marion | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
Stewart, an amazing woman, said in May, no law can offer the pdrfect | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
solution to protect people from drugs. It is equally vital that we | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
concentrate our efforts on laking the public, young people in | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
particular, more aware of the harms of these substances in schools, | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
universities, and during festivals. I couldn't agree more. Sadlx, the | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
government doesn't seem to `gree that a comprehensive educathon and | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
awareness strategy needs to go alongside the measures cont`ined in | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
this bill. That is the trulx only way that we would effectively reduce | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
demand and thereby make measures controlling supply easier and more | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
effective. I would like to thank the honourable member for Redditch for | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
working closely with me on this bill. His insights into the public | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
health aspects of the legislation have been invaluable. It has been a | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
pleasure to work with him. H would like to thank the Minister, the | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
Honourable member for Hemel Hempstead the spirit of co-operation | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
he has shown throughout the passage of the bill, his humour, and the | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
SNP, who have been great to work with, this has been my first one and | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
it has been really good to have them alongside. This legislation was | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
introduced in the other place and I want to be attributed to thd | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
excellent work done by my L`bour Party colleagues there, in | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
particular the noble lord Lord Ross, who led on the bill for the Labour | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
Party. My colleagues in the other place of instrumental in improving | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
the bill by securing more comprehensive exceptions for | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
academic and medical research. And I am convinced that the input from the | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
Labour side of the House has made a difference to this bill. In | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
conclusion, Mr Deputy Speakdr, if the House is divided tonight we will | :59:18. | :59:28. | |
vote for the bill before us. Expert advice from Ireland suggests that a | :59:29. | :59:30. | |
blanket ban is the most effdctive means of beginning to tackld the | :59:31. | :59:33. | |
most pernicious industry of psychoactive substances. We | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
committed to banning them in our manifesto and I believe this bill is | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
a good first step in our battle to protect the public and our children | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
from serious adult risks and harms that these dangerous drugs present. | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
However the fight against the harms brought about by new psycho`ctive | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
substances is only just beghnning and I will continue to work for | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
better education and awarendss in this country as the fight continues. | :59:58. | :00:05. | |
, I'd just echo the words of post frontbenchers about the project has | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
been to work with them on this bill -- both frontbenchers. It h`s come | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
as a bit of a rude shock to find complete consensus and no dhvisions | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
and has a medical has sat on a social care committee and the last | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
Parliament are not used to such committees! Like a No ten bts, to | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
have three in a row, I would, if you don't mind because two of mx | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
colleagues want to speak and we will finish on time. I just want to say | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
two things. It is unfortunate, although I do not in any wax | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
denigrate the importance of the subject, it is a shame we h`ve spent | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
some time today discussing `mendment five around Poppers. All th`t I will | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
say about that is that it is a hugely important issue. We need to | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
get it resolved and move on quickly. I really appreciate what thd | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
minister said about immediately and buy some and I have written those | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
things on my notes and as hhs former PPS he knows I will hold hil to | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
that! There has been huge interest in this subject in the Housd since | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
I've been here in 2010. Questions, Westminster Hall debates, prime | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
ministers questions in the last Parliament led to it being hn, I | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
believe, both manifestos at the general election and here wd are | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
today with it almost done. Why is this important? I want to rdturn to | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
an 18-year-old who died in ly constituency at a music festival | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
having fun. She had everythhng to live for, she was an army c`det a | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
Duke of Edinburgh Gold award winner but for ?40, her life was gone. Her | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
dad said at the inquest, I `lways imagined that if any harm c`me to | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
her it would be on a bungee jump or canoeing down a river or an accident | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
on a mountain, nothing like this. She was so sensible, it is `n | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
absolute tragedy for this f`mily, one act of stupidity that h`s | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
destroyed us. That really does say it all as to why we are herd. NPS, | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
as they are currently, are notoriously difficult to iddntify. | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
They currently have to be rdgulated on a substance by substance, group | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
by group races because of the diversity and the speed at which | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
they are developed to replace drugs that are controlled under the 1 71 | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
act. For me, the cruellest danger of so-called legal highs that H have | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
seen so often sold at festivals that I attended with my friends `nd this | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
summer with my family, as h`rmless fun. They are anything but. Do I | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
think the bill addresses thd problem? I believe so because it is | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
the blanket ban that we prolised, it is one that we have been crxing out | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
for, campaigned for the manx years, the current response in Hampshire, | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
where I represent, is built around reducing demand, restricting supply | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
and the use of trading standards. Hampshire trading standards have | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
tried everything. They have been unable to is excessively secure a | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
prosecution using existing legislation to regulate head shops, | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
they fall under anti-social association where it can be | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
associated with the problem. It does not take a genius to work ott is to | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
macro that this is fiddling while Rome burns. All good work btt we | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
have been tidying hands behhnd backs and now we nearly have the | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
legislation. I mentioned he`d shops. There was one, at a second reading | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
it was still there, there w`s one on Stockport Road in my constituency, | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
it was closed down last month to anti-social behaviour legislation. | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
My hope is, as has happened in Ireland, that this will lead to the | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
end of many more of those hdad shops. Having approved the bill as | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
it has gone to the House, is that the committee, we introduced new | :04:01. | :04:09. | |
legislation under clause ond and I believe that is crucial, and I share | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
a great deal of hope that that will make a big difference. Therd is a | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
huge problem in the secure state right now and we have a | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
responsibility to tackle it. In conclusion, Mr Deputy Speakdr, I | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
think this is a very good bhll, it has been a long time coming. It has | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
been a pleasure to play even a small part in it, as a manifesto | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
commitment, we are getting on with delivering that manifesto. We are | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
here to do no harm and do as much good began, I think. And I think, | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
unbalanced, although it is not perfect, this bill is a giant leap | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
in that direction -- on bal`nce Thank you. Thank you, Mr Deputy | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
Speaker, I will be brief. I will congratulate all those involved in | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
bringing this bill forward hncluding the government, the minister, | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
everyone will agree that he has been very willing to engage in open and | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
robust debate about various different points in this, the | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
Scottish Government, who have supported the ethos behind this | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
bill. The committees involvdd in it and our colleagues and the Labour | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
benches. Although I was not on the committee it is the second bill have | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
been closely involved with, and it has been a pleasure to work | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
alongside Labour colleagues on a number of issues. It is cle`r that | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
an of these substances are dangerous and we are letting this message get | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
out there now. They are also unpredictable. There is no way of | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
knowing what is and what people are buying. No way of predicting the | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
impact on the individual. In the last debate in this House t`lked | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
about somebody I know who took one thing, made one foolish mistake aged | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
17, a talented young medical student, a beautiful girl who spent | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
the rest of her life and is still in a locked psychiatric ward bdcause of | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
the impact because you can never predict how it will impact xou. I | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
have some remaining concerns, particularly on things like poppers. | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
i look forward to the review. differentiating between people who | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
buy from the internet and others who buy from a dealer in a dark alley. | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
that is remaining concern md. i understand that the minister has | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
said that this is not the intention behind that part of the bill. i | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
accepted is not the intention and i will just quote him, the sphrit of | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
the bill is that we do not want to criminalise individuals for | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
possession. Possession is not an offence under any part of the | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
legislation, and purchasing would be legal so there would be no | :06:46. | :06:47. | |
illegality on the part of the individual. If I am allowed to take | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
an intervention, "Subtitles will resume | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
on 'Wednesday In Parliament' | :06:56. | :06:58. |