09/02/2016 House of Commons

Good morning and welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage of the

House of Commons. The main businesses to debates brought

forward by opposition partids. The first tabled by questions on the

timing of the UK's referendtm. The DUP say it should not be held in

June as it clashes with nathonal elections in Northern Ireland, Wales

and Scotland. The Prime Minhster and labour leader disagree. Aftdr that,

the Liberal Democrats have ` debate on housing. Their motion argues

people are being priced out of their communities due to rising house

prices and rents. Remember to join me for a round-up of the dax in both

Houses of Parliament at 11 o'clock tonight. First, questions to the

Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, and his ministerial team. The fhrst

question is all about public health grants.

Order, order. Questions to the Secretary of State for Health. Mr

Johnny Mercer. The local authority public health grant is ring fenced

and must be spent in published grand conditions set by the Government.

Local authority chief execs and directors are required to cdrtify

that Grant spenders in mind that these conditions. England ftrther

review spent information and local authorities spend against the grant

is subject to an external atdit as well. In my city of Plymouth in

2014/15, we have seen ?47 pdr head. In Portsmouth, they received ?7 and

in Kensington and Chelsea, ht is ?136. I understand this is ` legacy

issue and the Government is committed to closing it. I cannot

stress how important it is to speed this up. How do they plan to achieve

this? The current situation is grossly unfair to my constituents.

My honourable friend is a rdal champion the public of his community

and I do applaud him for th`t. We have had conversations about this

issue. There are historic differences which I am conscious of

that exist. They arise from historical PCT spending priorities.

We have made progress in addressing this but we are looking in terms of

allocations of range -- across a range of factors including

inequalities and they will be announced shortly. I have offered

the Chief Executive of publhc England who will be happy to talk

with him and that remains an offer open to him. The NHS forward view

states the future of millions of children come the sustainabhlity and

the Emmett -- of the NHS and the economic stability of Britahn need

and rely on a upgrading public health. How can he explain how the

cuts in public health help to achieve this objective? The

challenge on being serious `bout prevention is about the enthre

health care system. Public health grants have had to absorb some of

that fiscal challenge. Dealhng with the problems we inherited at the

beginning of the Coalition Government. Despite that, local

authorities will have ?16 bhllion over the spending review period in

public health grounds alone that is not the only way we invest hn

prevention. I have seen somd of the great work going on on my vhsits to

work with local authorities and I'm confident of the great things they

can do that money. Given thd report that has been out today frol the

commission into mental health provision and mental health

treatments, can the Minister provide any assurance about the equhtable

treatment of physical and mdntal health to ensure that there is equal

allocation of funds? There hs a great deal of attention in this area

and there has been more beds commission. We are looking seriously

at our Tobacco strategy. Right at the heart of that is a concdrn for

the inequity between mental health and when it comes to smoking levels.

I want to give that assurance level that we are looking at how we can do

more for those who suffer whth mental health. Access to

contraception is not only a fundamental right, but it is also a

cost-effective public health intervention. With every ?1 spent on

contraception, it saves the NHS in ?11. However, this Government is

presiding over savage cuts to public health services with ?40 million

predicted to be cut from sexual health services this financhal year

alone. Is this what the Minhster means by saying that her Government

is serious about prevention? Why doesn't she finally admit that these

cuts not only make no financial sense, but also potentially putting

the nation's health at risk also. I reject that analysis. On thd matter

of sexual health services ddcisions on public health or a matter of

priority and they are mandated by legislation to commission open

sexual health. We'll sing a great deal of innovation around the

country in terms of how people do this. There was a good example in

Leeds of people redesigning services to enable people to access sexual

health. The Shadow minister, the question goes unanswered on how much

they would have invested in the NHS. The question that was never answered

at the general election. On prevention alone, the public health

grant is not everything. In the next financial year alone, the Ddpartment

will spend ?320 million on vaccines. We have introduced to world firsts.

The child flu programme and the meningitis immunisation programme.

This Government is investing in prevention and investing in our NHS.

With permission, I would like to take questions two, nine and will

together. 11 out of 27 hosphtals have not existed special me`sures

have demonstrated sustainable improvements in quality of care

Trusts put into special measures having recruited 1089 more doctors

and 4442 more nurses with one estimate saying this has reduced

mortality rates by 450 lives a year. I thank him for that answer.

Following the recent CQC report at Medway Hospital, the staff, the new

chief executives are working hard to turn around a long and deep problem

at the hospital. What furthdr support can the Government offered

to turn it around and out of special measures? I think the Secretary of

State and his department for the sport they have given so far. -

thank. This hospital has bedn through a very difficult patch. I

had a meeting about Medway Hospital yesterday. Over the last five years,

we have 106 more doctors and 26 more nurses in the trust. We havd a link

with guys and Saint Thomases and it is beginning to bear fruit. We have

to deal with this quickly and deliver safer care for his

constituents. My right honotrable friend will know of some of the

terrible problems that we h`ve experienced in Shropshire whth

regards to the CCG's and thd trust on the future fit programme over

services in Shropshire. Roy`l Shrewsbury Hospital covers ` huge

area, not just Shropshire btt the whole of mid Wales. Will he do

everything possible to support me and the residents of Shrewsbury come

to guarantee that A services remain at the Royal Shrewsbtry

Hospital? I would like to thank him for his campaigning for the Royal

Shrewsbury. Nobody can do more than he has done for it. I would

encourage him to engage with the programme carefully. In the end it

is incredibly important that we get the right hands of the patidnts and

he has been supportive of this process. Like him, I would like to

see it concluded rather sooner than later. Could the Secretary of State

set out for my constituents in Worcestershire, what the impact of

the trust being put into spdcial measures is likely to have this year

and what improvements they can expect when the trust exits special

measures? The advantage of the special measures programme hs we

tend to make much faster progress in turning round hospitals in

difficulty and did happen in previous years. He will know in his

local trust in the last fivd years, we have nearly 50 more doctors and

more than 100 more nurses. We are making progress but need to do it

much faster. That hospital will have my full support in dealing with

these problems quickly. Walsall NHS Trust has been placed into special

measures. What immediate action can the Secretary of State take to

ensure their Manor Hospital can recruit the vital staff in

paediatrics and A for the long-term in fall employed staff?

One of the things that can put hospitals into special is if the

proportion of stuff coming from agencies is too high becausd they

cannot offer the continuity of care. In terms of full-time doctors, there

is an extra 83 at Walsall c`re NHS Trust and 422 full-time nurses. An

improvement director started this week and we are looking to find a

bloody hospital. Where we h`ve turned round hospitals the fastest,

we found if they have a partner hospital, it has the biggest effect.

Despite having a football tdam that is talk, Leicester's hospit`ls are

in need of urgent assistancd. The worry for Leicester is they slip

into special measures come especially with regard to A What

steps can he take to ensure our hospitals are performing as well as

Leicester City football club? We want them to be as outstandhng as

Leicester City football club, but we do recognise there is a way to go.

There is pressure in the A departments which my honour`ble

friend has acknowledged in ` house and we are looking carefullx to do

what we can to support them. They are going to be one of the first

trusts in the country to offer full seven-day services from March 2 17.

There are some important improvements happening but we will

be doing everything we can to make sure they happen quickly.

My trust is not in special leasures, it is in trouble and we looked like

losing our A if we follow the recommendations of the CCG. Will you

agree with me that when hospitals get into trouble, trusts get into

trouble, it is usually becatse of poor? Management? There are some

things we need to do differdntly. Managers need longer in thehr post.

If the average tenure of an executive is only around ten years

then inevitably their horizons are short-term and we need to ghve them

time to turn around their organisations. The latest trust to

get an outstanding measure, the Park Hill Hospital, the chief exdcutive

has been there for 26 years and I think there is a connection. If we

make sure they have the resources, and where there are problems we

identify them quickly and ghve them support before things turn hnto a

crisis. Barking hay ring and Redbridge trust is working dxtremely

hard to improve services, and has had some considerable success but

despite there being 250 spare care home beds in the London Borough of

hay ring, there are a large number of rail and elderly patients in

hospital who are no longer clinically ill. Has any resdarch

being done into the reasons for the late discharge and how much does

patient choice play a part hn that? It can unfortunately sometiles play

apart, but the biggest way to tackle the problem is to have bettdr

coordination between what the local authorities do, this easy gdes do

and what the trusts do, and that is not only a problem in her trust but

also around the NHS. -- Havdring. The CCG found there had been

significant progress in the last inspection, more doctors and nurses

and an excellent chief execttive and I'm confident for the futurd. 1

trusts across the country are currently in special measurds. Nine

in ten hospitals are failing to achieve their own safe staffing

plans and waiting time targdts are being missed so often that failure

is now becoming the norm. Does the Health Secretary think that that

might explain why the king's fund survey yesterday found satisfaction

in the NHS increased by eight percentage points in 2015, the

largest increase since the survey began in 1980 three? I think she

might want to look more cardfully at that report before turning ht into a

political football begins on page six it says that satisfaction rates

in Wales, run by her party, are six percentage points lower than in

England. I will tell her wh`t is happening with the regime of special

measures, we being honest about the problems and sorting them ott rather

than sweeping them under thd carpet which is the problem we had with

mid-Staffordshire, Morecambd Bay and a whole range of hospitals. We are

putting more money in, treating more people in, and public confidence in

the safe the dignity of the care they get is at record levels. It is

clear the Health Secretary doesn't want to talk about his record in

England. His own backbenchers are queueing up to tell him abott

problems in their own NHS. Hn Medway, Shropshire, but he does not

understand the extent of thd problem. Let's return to thd public.

Satisfaction with the NHS h`s fallen by five percentage points, this up

by 8%, satisfaction with GP services is the lowest rate ever recorded.

Satisfaction with A at 53$. We know the Health Secretary h`s lost

the confidence with doctors, isn't this the clearest sign that he has

lost confidence in patients two What's my backbenchers are pueueing

up to say is, thank you for sorting out problems that Labour swdpt under

the carpet for years and ye`rs and years. Professor Brian Jarm`n, what

did he say about the Departlent of Health under the last Labour

government? EZ it was a denhal machine. All the problems h`ppening

in hospitals was swept under carpet and not dealt with. What is

happening in this government is to mark -- he said. 100 more pdople

treated for cancer, 2000 more people treated at A departments, 400

more operations, record doctors and nurses, save NHS than ever. We are

proud to be the party the NHS stop -- a safe NHS. The results of the

last GP patients' survey showed that 91% gets convenient appointlents.

84% who were not able to get an appointment or a convenient

appointment indicated they went to the A The same survey indicated

that one in four people are now waiting more than one week to see

their GP. There is a staggering 1 million people heading off to A E

because they cannot get an appointment with their GP. Ht is a

total meltdown. What is the Minister doing about it? 40 million lore

appointments are available for GPs than in the past. The government's

commitments to track one GB access to ?175 million is being invested to

test improved and innovativd access to GP services. 57 schemes, 250

practices, and by March, next year, 18 million patients will have

benefited from improved accdss and change at local levels. That is what

we are doing about it. The Linister will be aware that despite great

improvements in cancer care under this government and the previous

government, one in five, more than 20% of cancer patients are first

diagnosed as late as A C`n he give an assurance that the

government's brokers will bd on one-year's survival rates as a means

of driving forward survival rate will remain a key indicator for the

government? You raise a serhous issue. Assuming the earliest

diagnosis of cancer is very important to the government,

obviously important to patidnts We are publishing the statistics on

early detection through the CCG in order to improve transparency

further because this transp`rency is the government has shown actually

drives improvements in performance. Canada minister advise me on how the

government is going to tackle urgently safety of care at North

Middlesex Hospital A, following revelations that a patient died in

December 2015 after being forced to wait an unacceptable amount of time

in A? -- can the Minister. The honourable lady gives an ex`mple of

why it is so important to sdek to improve care and quality of care in

A, why it is so important to keep transparency going. It is one of the

reasons why we have a new inspection regime, designed to highlight these

things. 1250 new doctors in A over the last five years will also make a

difference to quality of care and improvement but you are right to

highlight this. The NHS does not do everything right but what is

important is we value what hs done, the bustard majority of stuff, but

when things go wrong, we sax so examine it and learn lessons. - the

vast majority. Of 25 absencds in Leicestershire before Christmas 16

were queueing outside Leicester Royal Infirmary to dischargd people.

I have written to the Secretary of State about this issue, gritty

update me and the House on what measures are being taken? -, could

he. The issue with ambulancds and care is the variation in qu`lity and

it is important to ensure local leadership addresses these problems

that are handed differently in various places. It is right to raise

this and I am sure he has r`ised it with his local trust, local

Ambulance Trust, as well as the hospital, to see how there can be

better facilitation of patidnts going in and being dischargdd, so

ambulances are not needed. The health and safety care information

Centre has shown 124,000 patients waited more than 12 hours after

arrival in A in comparison to 1700 in Scotland. This number has doubled

since 2013. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine has expl`ined

these tend to be the sickest patients and this delay is

associated with increased mortality, so how does the Minister and

Secretary of State plan to hmprove this performance? I have to tell the

honourable lady that I did notice patient satisfaction with A was

lower in Scotland than Engl`nd which indicates we all have probldms to

deal with in relation to thhs area. It is correct to continue otr

progress in increasing resotrces throughout the health service and

A, and improve the transp`rency and ability of people to sed what is

happening and going on. Unacceptable weights are not part of what we want

to see from the NHS and that is why there is a determination to drive

them down and make sure pathents in England have the best quality

information about what is h`ppening in their NHS and they continue to

drive efficiency in improvelent -- waits. They have not been ptblished

since November. The doctors required to look after patients are @

specialist. There is a problem with retaining A specialist and

trainees because they worked a higher proportion of unsoci`ble

hours. These are exactly thd hours that will be less rewarded hn the

new contract. In the future, how does the secretary of state plan to

recruit and retain doctors of emergency measures to the -,

medicine? The new contract which is under negotiation at the molent the

majority of which has been `greed with junior doctors, I'd contract

designed to replace the failures in the old contract which everxbody

knew needed to be corrected, writes the basis for the profession for the

future, to deal with some of the issues the honourable lady lentions,

and it is a matter of great concern that negotiations should continue,

there should be no strike tomorrow, and this pattern gets a chance to

work. It might assist the House to mention the Independent health care

commission for North West London was made up of five Labour councils and

chaired by Michael Mansfield QC and in terms of the assessment of the

findings for the commission, I can put it no better than the ldad

medical for the Shaping Healthier Future project who said the

unanimous conclusion was th`t the report offered no substanti`l

evidence or credible altern`tive that would lead to better ottcomes

for our patients above the dxisting plans we have in place, and I concur

with that judgment. Last July the Minister held a meeting with MPs and

agreed information on review of hospital services will be shared. We

understand plan B will be considered which will move services to Charing

Cross but will retain a mothball existing buildings rather than

redevelopment. Can we see ctrrent plans? We had a constructivd

meeting, and I think it is time to move on. There is a grave d`nger of

the honourable gentleman appearing to be like one of those soldiers

discovered on a Pacific isl`nd after the Second World War, he is still

fighting the old war. If only he was! Some of the reasons for costs

escalating within projects of the NHS is because of the const`nt

challenge and delay. Shaping a Healthier Future has clinic`l

consensus across north-west London. This will save many lives e`ch year.

It is time to get on with this project. The report heavily features

Ealing Hospital where a radhographer blew the whistle on consult`nts

taking funds and extra paymdnts and now she is jobless. She will soon be

homeless. Will the Minister urgently look into her place because despite

a plethora of reports, this government does not seem to be doing

anything for higher? I don't think that is fair. In fact, the secretary

of state has met the commission in question and the Francis review

recommendations as we have `dopted them make it clear that thex have a

right to speak out, and we would want everybody to speak out on

behalf of patient safety. The trust reported a deficit of 6

billion for this financial xear with 75% reporting another deficht which

is why we launched the Cartdr efficiency programme, hospitals can

save ?5 billion annually by making sensible improvements. Mr Speaker

almost every acute trust will be in deficits including Saint Helens

which covers my constituencx, the fact is the Government has been slow

in dealing with a cause which is the employment of agency staff. Also it

continues to put up the tarhff which is based on efficiency savings when

hospitals like Saint Helens are struggling to make greater

efficiency, will he look at this again? I think you should ghve a

slightly more complete picttre of this hospital comparative fhve years

ago. 7000 more CT and MRI scans When it comes to deficits wd are

tackling the agency staff issue and that happen because agencies were

responding to the France of support and rightly they said they wanted to

stuff up quickly but in a sustainable basis. If we were

putting ?5 billion less into the NHS as he stood for at the last

election, the problems would be worse. Does my right honour`ble

friend not agree that the rtnning costs very from 105-195 per square

metre which was highlighted by Lord Carter is wholly unacceptable and

would he also agree the concept of a model hospital has great merit? My

honourable friend knows abott these from his own clinical background and

he is right. We are now doing the most ambitious programme anxwhere in

the world to identify the cost that hospitals are playing from @pril we

will be collecting the cost for the hundred most use products in the

NHS, that information will be shared and we are the biggest purchaser of

health care equipment in thd world and we should be paying the lowest

prices. The largest hospital trust in the UK is set to run up 035 and

in pounds in deficits, this would be the greatest ever overspend in the

NHS, when will the Minister except this austerity driven crisis facing

the NHS? -- accept it is a stretch to say this is an austerity driven

problem when next year we h`ve the six biggest increase for funding in

the NHS in its entire 70 ye`r history. There are severe problems

and we will tackle the deficit and we will make sure we includd patient

safety and patient care. Thd staff of the University Hospital of North

Midlands entrusted the care of County Hospital in Stafford and

Stowe has done a great job hn improving quality of care and

bringing down the deficit, Willie ensure a long-term approach is taken

to the finance of the trust to ensure we don't make rapid decisions

which could could deliver rdsults in difficult situations in the future

-- will he. The trick when we reduce deficit is to take a strategic

approach to deficits and cost reduction and not to make short term

sacrifices which harm patients. That is why at the weekend we announced a

?4.2 billion IT investment programme that will mean doctors and nurses

spend less time to form a more times with patients. Number six please

stop white by 2020. Everyond will be to get a GP appointment in dvenings

and weekends. By March this year a third of the country, 18 million

people will have benefited from improved services. There is

currently a concern for GPs in my constituency of Eastleigh which has

left so if it can delay is `n patient is getting nonurgent

appointments. Will the Secrdtary of State promotes more agile working

structures for GPs, especially women, this was highlighted when CCG

is fighter for retaining extra GPs? I know West Ham Shih CCG is

providing extra space and c`pacity to take on more trainees and across

the country we want five dozen more doctors by the end of this

Parliament, this is the biggest increase in GPs in the history of

the NHS. It builds on the extra 1700 GPs we have working in 2010. It does

take too long to see a GP and we are committed to sorting it out and The

Record investment will make that possible. Why can the Mac -, why can

medical centre will close in March in my constituency leaving 2000

people needing to find a new GP This means it is impossible to have

a prompt GP appointment let alone register, can the Secretary of State

ensure he will coordinate whth NHS England to manage the situation

appropriately and all they can to assist each of my constituents

affected especially the vulnerable and elderly to get access to new GP

as soon as possible. I am h`ppy to do that. She is right to make those

points and the vulnerable pdople with long-term conditions is the

area where we need to see the biggest supports to GPs bec`use it

is strengthening the abilitx to proactively keep people out of

hospitals to keep costs down. In Rochester we are facing the closure

of two single Hannah GP practices due to a retirement and a stspension

with no long-term replacement. Would my right honourable friend `t wired

what steps he has taken to laintain appropriate access to local GPs I'm

absolutely prepared to do that and I've met a number of GPs her area,

what's we are doing is reversing the historic underfunding for gdneral

practices with an increase hn more than 4% a year in funding going into

primary care and general pr`ctice. That'll give hope to the profession.

Northern Ireland, when it comes to accessing GPs you need to h`ve GPs,

25% of GPs are over 55 years of age, that is going to get worse, what

steps have been taken to tr`in more GPs to ensure they then stax within

the NHS and not going oversdas with better wages and conditions? We have

plans to have 5000 more doctors working in general practice, we need

to increase the number of GPs going into general practices by 3000 every

year, I'm very happy to liahse with the province on this. Against the

peers and against the press, Victoria Atkins. Thank you Lr

Speaker I must mention the team is led by my honourable friend from

Ealing North and Hayward and Middleton. Question seven please.

Can I join you in offering congratulations for her success

Tackling the integration is crucial to avoiding unnecessary hospital

admissions, providing better for the elderly and easing the pressure for

an ageing population. That hs why we have setup the better care fund

have set a ?5.3 billion increase, this is why my friend the h`s

announced a social capri set which will raise two billion and we have a

five-year forward view with integrated care plans and ndw.. I

hope notwithstanding his excitement he didn't mention that this was

grouped with question 16 and she didn't the deed is done. In areas

with a high proportion of rdsidence, home aids and adaptations c`n help

people live longer in their homes which benefit them and can help to

ease pressure on the NHS and social care services, what steps of the

Government taking to boost this kind of support? My honourable friend

makes an excellent point. The disabled facilities Grant is a

primary mechanism for helping the disabled. Currently I am honoured to

announce it has been increased which will fund 85,000 adaptations. In a

recent study carried out by the sea QC, a survey found that there was no

notable improvement on ment`l health services outside of hospitals. Can I

asked the minister what steps are being taken to rectify this? It is

writes the crisis resolution home treatment teams were critichsed in

the recent reports. That is why the Prime Minister announced in January

we are providing an extra ?400 million funding for those tdens and

it is why in the mandate NHS England have to improve crisis treatment in

all areas. The decision to slash funding to local authorities was

disastrous for adult social care as they were warned at the timd, will

the Minister accept that thd social care precept which the Government

are allowing councillors to raise will raise the most money in those

councils which have the highest council tax base, not necessarily in

those which are the greatest need? I would be concerned if it is true. We

are facing an exploding dem`nd and at the risk of sounding likd a Monty

Python sketch, what has the Government done apart from fully

funding the NHS five year vhew with 3.5 billion and driving health

devolution and 4 billion he`lth technology, we are funding the

integration in a way the last Labour government did not do. Mr Speaker

that is really not true. Government ministers residing over the

hollowing out of social card because they are funding far short of what

is needed. ?4.6 billion has really been cut and the gap is growing at

?700 million a year. The prdset you have been talking about will raise

?400 million a year, the better care fund doesn't start until next year

when it starts at 105 million. Simon Stephens has called this unresolved

business, when will the Minhster when will all the ministers face up

to the fact this does not add up? The question would be more capable

of being capable of taken sdrious if the party opposite had ideas. Over

the next ten years a 22% increase in over 65 is, a number of people over

75 the rise 90%, we are fachng extraordinary challenges whhch is

why we have announced the bdtter care fund. And why we are driving

devolution which allows loc`l health leaders to integrate. If it was as

easy as members opposite sahd then they would have done in the of

office. The NHS choice survdy which has been carried out in its current

form for the past two years shows the proportion of patients who said

they recalled being offered a choice of hospital or clinic is at 40% in

2015 up from 30% in 2014. The figure at the minister left out was that it

was 50% when Labour left power in 2010. How does you explain this very

worrying fall in the proportion of patients being given a choice? Will

he reaffirm that choice is ` legal right under the NHS Constitttion and

fully acknowledge that the introduction of choice was `nd has

been a major driver in improving NHS performance across? The fact the

right now wouldn't and missdd out was that was a different survey and

the figures are not, double. I agree that choice was important and we

should do more and I would like to take this opportunity if I lay

congratulate the team at his hospital which has been awarded

good, the first in the south-west to be rated as such. Patients needing

mental health services don't get to choose where they receive their care

as highlighted in the commission on acute adult psychiatric ports which

was published today. It says the whole system has suffered from an

attrition in funding in recdnt years, it highlights poor qtality of

care, inadequate staffing and low morale, it describes the situation

as potentially dangerous. Whll the Minister now accept his govdrnment

has let vulnerable people down and Willie implement the recommdndations

in full to put the serious situation right? We have just received a

report and it is a good report, NHS England are working on the

recommendations and I would remind her it is this government which has

put mental health on an equ`l esteem within the NHS within the

constitution for the first time The position front and say it is

meaningless but if it were, why did they not do it when they were in

office? We have done it for the first time and are acting on it not

just in terms of the constitution but the funding which is gohng up in

real terms. The CCG expects to publish hts

internal review by the end of February. The independent rdview is

expected to be completed by the middle of the month. The monitor is

assessing the project from the providers' perspective and will

reveal findings soon. The United clear contract in temperature was an

attempt to join up disintegrated services. Now we seem to have a

series of disintegrated revhews What is needed is a overarching

review that looks at the role of NHS England and the role of an Lonitor,

the strategic project team `nd the ministers. When will we get that

review? As I have indicated, there are reviews going on which concern

the responsibilities of each individual part but there is no

doubt that this was a seriots matter and a serious failure, which raises

serious concerns. We want to know what went on as much as the

honourable member. Once the reviews have been completed, I will be happy

to talk to the honourable gdntleman about the consequences of those

reviews. I call the victorious team leader, Mr Stephen Pound. Qtestion

11, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker ht is my considerable honour to respond to

the honourable gentleman in his victorious mode. Community pharmacy

is a vital part of the NHS. We want to see a high-quality community

pharmacy service properly integrated into primary care and public health

and the proposed changes will help us in conjunction with the pharmacy

profession to do just that. I am grateful to the Minister for that

question. The result was a place for him in our team next year although

we are actually taking trials over the next few weeks. -- therd is

always a place. Will he accdpt that community pharmacists are of great

and growing importance to otr constituents, providing an

increasing range of health care and advice in accessible High Street

locations. What message does the Minister have for these dedhcated

professionals who are now fdaring for their future due to the

uncertainty arising from thd announcement of a 6% cut in funding

for the NHS pharmacy servicd? I am grateful to the honourable

gentleman. The message is that community pharmacy does and is doing

an extraordinary and import`nt job but it will change. In 2013, the

Royal pharmaceutical servicd, any publication said that the

traditional model of communhty pharmacy needs to change because of

economic austerity, increashng use of automated technology to tndertake

expensing, and the use of online prescribing. It pointed to the

massive potential of communhty pharmacists to do more and sees

pharmacy as ideally placed to play a crucial role in the new moddls of

care. With the consultation going on, there was a great futurd for

pharmacies, but like so much else, it will be different. Number 13 Mr

Speaker. The UK continues to play a global leadership role on -, roll on

antimicrobial resistance. Wd created the Fleming fund to help poorer

countries tackle drug resistance and we are promoting action. Our review

is helping to galvanise global awareness. I welcome that answer.

Antibiotic resistance is ond of the biggest challenges for glob`l

health, making routine oper`tions impossible with in ten or 14 years.

I welcome the government's `ction on this. Antibiotic research UK is the

world's first organisation set up to tackle this. Thank you. I wdlcome

the fact that my my honourable friend is becoming a champion for

this important international agenda. I am aware of the work of the

charity he mentions. I belidve they have had some contact with the

Department already and I am happy to look at the issue he mentions. I

don't make decisions on the sort of issues but I'm happy to it `nd meet

with him. UK health and medhcal research projects benefit htgely

from EU funding with the UK at the top of the table for approvdd

grants. This funding is vit`l if we are to tackle global health

challenges. Does the Ministdr accented that pulling Britahn out of

the EU may have a detriment`l impact on the UK's role as a world leader

in health and development? H can give the House the reassurance that

the funds she mentions are protected by the Spending Review. Mr Simon

Burns. Number 14. NHS England advises that in Chelmsford, there

are 1927 patients, slightly lower than the mid Essex clinical

commissioning area. Eight of the practices have been inspectdd and

seven were rated good with one outstanding. Does the Minister think

it is possible that the NHS review of the PMS scheme to ensure that

good and innovative work is promoted by PMS as example five by Sttherland

Lodge surgery can be sustained? I hope so. And I appreciate the

honourable gentleman's visit to my office yesterday with members of

that surgery and also present lives of the NHS. The ?1.4 million release

from PMS in Essex will be rdinvested within the area but it is ilportant

that there is an opportunitx for all practices to bid for that money so

that some of the work already done under PMS, if it is still ndeded,

gets the chance to continue and certainly with services ratdd

outstanding. If the Secretary of State... Number one. Number one

Significant progress has bedn made in our negotiations on a new

contract with junior doctors but the agreement has not been reached on

the issue of Saturday play despite assurances from the BMA.

Regrettably, 2884 operations have been cancelled ahead of tomorrow's

industrial action which will affect all nonemergency services. H urge

the BMA to put the interests of patients first and reconsiddr their

refusal to negotiate. At PMPs in February of 2014, I raised with the

Prime Minister might serious concerns about the bullying culture

at Liverpool community trust. I understand that the enquiry into

parts of this is complete so I will ask the Secretary of State, in the

spirit of honouring his stated commitment to openness and

transparency, to ensure that report is available from the 23rd of

February. I will happily look into that matter and I know my honourable

friend has had a roundtable on bullying and harassment and can I

thank her for raising it because over the last decade, none of us

should be proud of this, but the number of NHS staff suffering from

bullying and harassment has gone up from 14% to 22%. We need to make it

easier for doctors and nursds to speak out without worrying `bout

being bullied and harassed. Demand always exceeds supply here. We need

short questions and short answers. I'm sure the Minister will dnjoy me

in congratulating the surgery in Bath for being ranked among the top

ten GP practices in the country Does the Minister agree with me that

patient satisfaction will increase if patients have a choice of where

they are treated? Yes, it whll, and that is another reason why we are

hoping to have 5000 more doctors working in general practice and 5000

more health professionals expanding the primary care service by 202 . It

has been reported that a potential deal on the junior doctor contract

was put to the government which would resolve concerns without

costing any more money and `voiding the industrial action tomorrow. A

source close to the negotiation told the newspaper that one person who

would not agree was the Health Secretary. Even though the NHS

employers and health teams thought this was a solution, he said no Let

me ask the Health Secretary a direct question, as the government at any

point rejected a cost neutr`l proposal from the BMA on thd junior

doctor contract, yes or no? The only reason that we do not have `

solution on the junior doctors is because in December on the one

outstanding issue, about Saturday play, the BMA said they would

negotiate but last month sahd they would refuse to negotiate. Hf they

are prepared to negotiate and be flexible, so are we. What is

noticeable is that despite 3000 cancelled operations, no-ond in the

Labour Party is condemning these strikes. Can my honourable friend

update us on the progress of decriminalisation of dispensaries

for pharmacists. I'm aware of my honourable friend's keen interest in

the rebalancing programme and dispensing errors. We are committed

to making this change. Therd are a number of measures related to this

in a section 60 order and ghven that timetable, it is likely the order

will be laid in the Westminster and Scottish parliaments in the autumn.

The Secretary of State will be aware that there is currently a

recruitment for junior doctors for the DWP. They are offering ?72, 00 a

year, up to twice the salarx they would get in the health service Is

he concerned this will result in inexperienced medical staff making

judgments that will relate to people's livelihoods and also is he

not concerned that this will result in a drain in staff resourcds out of

the NHS and out of general health care for the public? What I would

say to the honourable gentldman is that as a result of the changes this

government has made on welf`re reform, we have 2 million more

people in work. We have half a million fewer households whdre

nobody works, and part of that is making important reforms, including

making assessments of peopld in the benefits system. Everyone should

welcome that. Comparative rdsearch has shown that proton therapy is as

effective as radiotherapy for certain cancers but with less side

effects. Does the government accept the use of comparative eviddnce in

deciding the availability of emerging treatments on the NHS such

as proton therapy? I will rdflect on the wider point that my honourable

friend makes but the House will be keen to know that we are investing

in building two proton beam therapy facilities in Manchester and London.

Work has already started. That is a ?250 million project on the first

facility will become operathonal in 2018. Could the secretary of state

provide an update on efforts and contingencies to combat these Zika

virus. Effort is being coordinated with all the administrations,

including Scotland. Yes, thhs is something that the government is

taking seriously and we havd got under active review. Up-to-date

medical guidance has been c`scaded to the NHS in England and the UK is

at the forefront of some of the world's response. We are a lajor

fund of the WHO and we are investing, we have people on the

ground in Brazil in particular. I can assure him that we are

maintaining close links with the devolved administrations at the

official level and I am verx happy to speak to colleagues. We take it

seriously, keeping those links alive. As the Minister seen the

comments of Angus Dalglish, reported in the papers today, which suggested

that EU rules are forcing us to spend billions of pounds trdating

health tourists and preventhng us from undertaking important clinical

trials? Has he made any assdssment of the comments made by Professor

Dalglish? This government h`s made huge assessment of the cost of

overseas people using the NHS, and we think there is ?500 millhon of

recoverable costs that we do not currently recover. When it comes to

the EU, the biggest problem we have is that we are able to recl`im the

costs of people visiting thd UK but we do not do it as much as we should

because the systems are not as efficient as they need to bd. And we

are sorting that out. Despite the prevalence of pancakes in P`rliament

today, I am pleased to be asking a food related question. It is

concerning a recent opinion poll by Diabetes UK which showed th`t 7 % of

British adults think that food and drink manufacturers should reduce

the amount of fat and sugar in their products. Does the Minister support

introducing mandatory targets for industry to reform the food, and

help people drink more -- e`t more healthily and will that forl part of

their strategy going forward? We have made considerable progress on

this area in the last Parli`ment, under the responsibility de`l. We

have always said there is more to do and the challenge to industry

remains. We will be saying lore about that when we published the

childhood obesity strategy hn due course.

The midwife led unit in my constituency of world and is key to

the high quality of passion in maternity care. Last year this get

100% -- scored 100% satisfaction, can the Government outlines plan

critically given this weeks launch of the safe of the campaign. These

have increased in number whhch is a greater advantage to more choice, I

hope the next review will m`p out the future of maternity services and

show what midwife led units would do within the NHS and I'm excited and I

know she be too. Ministers will be aware by a call for concertdd action

to promote and protect breast-feeding, will he meet with me

and these organisations to discuss with these proposals further? I m

aware of the Lancet review `nd it makes important points. It hs of

note that in Scotland and W`les and Northern Ireland progress h`s been

made where we should get a copy in England. We have made progrdss but

there is a considerable difference between rich and poor we nedd to

fix. I'm pleased to support the NSPCC it is time campaign to ensure

children who have been victhms of abuse receive ongoing support.

Cannot seek assurances from the Government that this initiative will

be actively helped? Thank you Mr Speaker, yes indeed we support the

initiative and our work looking after those children who nedd extra

care, especially in relation to health and emotional needs hs being

helped by local authorities and vulnerabilities are certainly a

matter of great concern. Ovdr 1 million elderly people can laintain

independence, what discussions are being made to ensure the allowance

will be left at the same level? This consultation is ongoing. Thdre is

now a committee to look at ` range of issues, the actual details has

not been finalised but it is a matter of concern and discussion

between departments. In askhng about mental health can I remind the House

that I am married to an NHS forensic scientists, can I ask whethdr the

Government has looked careftlly at the report today from the

independent commission in ilproving mental health services, and in

particular they are finding nationally there is an inaddquate

level of provision for the lost severe ill patients and can the

Government sets out what me`sures they will take to make sure we

really do see progress and hmprove access? Can I thank my honotrable

friend for this and thank the Royal College of psychiatry for the work

on the commission of launch Nigel crisp which we have supporthve. The

report and the recommendation has only just comfort it goes in the

direction the Government is still going, we want to reduce out of area

placements and the NHS is working on this team moved to a definitive

target to reduce that and hopefully eventually scrap it. I was hn Hull

looking at problems and the recommendations on waiting times are

important. This area has bedn undervalued and is under grdater

scrutiny now and there is more investment going into the

Government. The reports will help this in relation today. I whll call

the honourable gentleman if his question consist of one sentence. A

Leeds we have pressure on acute services, will the secretarx of

state... Bell was, Mr Speakdr,. . While the CCG provides the loney? I

am happy to look at that. Wd will come to points of order but not yet.

By refusing to condemn the junior doctors strike, the lady opposite

has shown she shows little regard for patient safety, that shd

repeated condemnation for the strike which will endanger patient safety

and can he Kante... Guarantde a contract for better patient care? I

think that was a reaction. The party opposite are saying if a negotiated

settlement can not be reachdd then we should not impose a new contract,

in other words we should give up on a seven day care for the most

honourable patients, there was a time when the Labour Party tsed to

speak up for vulnerable pathents but now it is clear that unions matter

more than patient. Demand is so high, last but not least. The

pharmacy budget comes in in October in the next financial year can the

Minister say what the fall cuts will be in a full financial year?

Negotiations are ongoing with the pharmaceutical services, thd amounts

that have been set up cover this financial year and settlements are

moved from year to year so that discussion is ongoing, the future

for pharmacy is very good and will be different, there is a grdat

future bright for high-stredt shops, shops and areas where we nedd the

bottle so an improvement in services and health care, improper c`re, in

primary homes around the cotntry. I did stretch the envelope as far as

we could but we must now move on. It has been brought to my attention

that the use of the element is now to be discontinued with parliament

giving 30 days notice to thd printers. Yet in a point of order by

the honourable member for North Wiltshire, you made it clear that a

decision on this matter would have to be taken on a floor of the House.

Can I seek your guidance in what should be done now so members across

the House can register their opposition to this along with making

the case for the continued tse in light of significant disputd over

the so-called savings cited by the administration committee whhch has

influenced their recommendation to end the century old practicd to

print this country's legisl`tion. Surely the legislation we m`ke in

this place, the mother of all parliaments is worthy of nothing

less? I'm very grateful for her courtesy in giving the advance

notice, the honourable lady is indeed correct that when thd matter

was raised in October last xear I indicated that as had been the case

in 99 that the House would be asked to decide whether to agree to the

recommendation of the adminhstration committee that it should agree to

the proposal from the House of lords and the decision indeed to replace

vellum with archival paper. That was my understanding at the timd, not

least with historical reasoning which I've just offered. No such

opportunity has been offered and as she knows, the provision of such an

opportunity is not in my gift. I should say the arrangements for

printing acts and the assochated expenditure are matters for the

House of Lords and not for the sales. Their arrangements whth the

printers are not matters for the chair. As for seeking a

demonstration for the depth and breadth of the support and tse, I'm

sure the honourable lady wotld have thought of tabling an early day

motion. I shall leave the m`tter there. Point of order. You lade a

call last week and I asked the question to the Minister for

business innovation of skills which asked in relation to facility time

and provisions that are contained in the trade union Bill and whdther

there would be a removal of those provisions as well apply to Scotland

and Wales? The Socialist worker and newspaper for which you might have a

subscription have published a letter to other ministers including the

Prime Minister which indicates that concessions will be made effectively

taking out the cheque of tile arrangement of the bill. Th`t letter

was dated the 26th of January. To say the least this informathon I was

given and the letter are contradictory. Could you indicate

firstly whether the Minister of State has made a request to clarify

these contradictory statements and what options are available? I will

say to the honourable gentldman that I've received no indication from any

Minister of an intention to make a statement on the matter. I hope the

honourable gentleman will forgive me but I don't recall from the top of

my head which Minister responded to the question last week yes there is

usually more than one Minister of State, name recognition is helpful.

In the absence of a declared name I cannot call to mind which Mhnister

answered and I hope I've followed the drift of the attempted point of

order, I wasn't conscious that ministers had a hotline to the

Socialist worker newspaper... LAUGHING

... Not yet says the leader of the Liberal Democrats are sedentary

position. I read the journal myself and I was a student and it has not

passed my desk since I must readily concede. If there is confushon on

the matter it is best the confusion is dispelled and my advice hn all

seriousness is that he should went his way to the table office and

table a written question on the matter, if when he receives a

sponsor that is, the fog has not lifted, I have a feeling thd

honourable gentleman will ttrn up at business questions on Thursday for

an early statement or debatd on that? He is nothing but if not

dog-eared and I'm sure he whll pursue his objectives with the

fixity of purpose that is rdquired. We will leave it there for now.

Point of order the macro incorrectly set in your youth you read Socialist

worker. Would be right to come to the conclusion that having that

revolutionary journal, you decided to become a Tory? The honourable

gentleman may be correct in that surmise, there was a young lad in my

secondary school who was a devoted seller of the paper and another

young lad who was a devoted seller who has since become a disthnguished

academic. As far as I know he no longer it is to the precepts of the

Socialist worker, did reading it make me a Tory? Probably. I'm very

grateful to the honourable gentleman for his point of order and free

sense of humour, if there are no points of order we come to the

presentation of bill for whhch the honourable member for monstdr has

been very patiently waiting. In foreign.

Blood donor equality Bill. 01th of March two reading. -- second

reading. We come now to the ten minute rule motion which thd

honourable member all of Sotthall has been patiently waiting, he has

clear sight of the chamber he can proceed. I'm grateful the ldad be

given to establish the rights of schools and academies to ch`llenge

the time and the format of school inspections, to peel against the

outcome of such inspections, to make provisions for increased

accountability and quality hnsurance within the inspection systel and for

connected speaking. Mr Speaker, I apologise in advance for my

lacklustre demeanour, I havd actually recently had about of

winter vomiting, I am anxiots I don't have more to worry about than

projecting my voice, Mr Spe`ker stages to be called the Long and

distinguished history stretching back to the days of Queen Vhctoria

when inspectors like Matthew Arnold fought against the scourge of

philistinism in British sochety Historically, it has been torn

between the twin, though not all is compatible role of supporting school

improvement and ensuring st`te funded schools abide whatevdr

standards and rules are currently laid down by the Government.

We are witnessing an interesting period of its development. Ht is a

huge organisation with 1000 plus permanent employers and a rdmit

stretching over the entire school system, nursery, preschool `nd out

of school provisions. And the varying and occasional

pronouncements and opinions of the head of Ofsted, whether as the

result of the modesty or misguided arrogance of Chris Woodhead, is seen

as an announcement from the Pope. And the head of Ofsted is gtaranteed

celebrity status. For schools and providers, Ofsted is critic`l.

Pleasing or pacifying Ofsted is hugely important and they c`st a

long shadow over the school year. Because their verdict can ddtermine

a school's repeat Asian, future funding, governance, the

professional career of its staff, its ownership and very survhval --

a school's reputation. I do not want to minimise the real brawl that HMI

is have and have had in the past with regards to school improvement.

But I do think that we need to flag up that as a country we are almost

unique in having such a heavy duty high-stakes, expensive and

unaccountable public body rdleasing weight policing our schools. It is

worth pointing out that manx of the countries we seek to emulatd in

terms of pupil progress, whdther it is ranking or whatever, lack such a

cumbersome apparatus. Althotgh there has been a significant amount spent

by the government on Ofsted, that is a mere fraction of the amount

schools and spend trying to protect themselves from a perverse or unfair

judgment from Ofsted. Again, as a nation we are an outlier here.

Unsurprisingly, good headte`chers are either diverted or stressed or

leave the profession early or pass up opportunities for promothon. We

do not actually have in this country a peer-reviewed model of school

improvement. Instead of that, we have what can become at its worst

the teaching equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition, where careers

go up in flames moment educ`tion heresy is mentioned. The wax we deal

with this in the UK is clumsy, providing proper value for loney,

and it is unaccountable. Crhtically, there is no independent appdal on

matters of substance. This bill seeks to give schools powers to

contest an unfair judgment by appeal to independent regional pandls.

Where disagrees remain, it will give schools the rights to table for

inclusion in the final Ofstdd report their response, if they still

disagree. Currently, even lodging legitimate complaints is sedn as

risky, futile, and very few do it. It is as good as arguing with

traffic wardens. In my view, we need to change this culture and `ddress

of this imbalance of power. We need a cultural change. It is not as

though Ofsted has ever been without flaws. In 2015, they dismissed 0%

of their inspectors for reasons undisclosed. It is not as though it

has never been arbitrary. The current head of Ofsted similarly

announced that a school would be graded inadequate just based on his

decision. A nursery was graded as inadequate for e-mailing a picture

of a happy child to parents. It is not as though the governments seem

impartial autoimmune from political pressure. I am not suggesting this

is systematic but it can happen It is a fact that the government wants

all schools to become acadelies and the head of Ofsted worked for an

academy school. To be fair, he sought to inspect and has bden

blocked from inspecting Academy changed by the government, but the

only real antidote to the stspicion that free schools and acadelies get

an easy ride is more transp`rency and the possibility of challenge.

But there is no straightforward bleed across from the data collected

to the verdict reached. I h`ve here two reports from Ofsted on two

schools in Liverpool, both hn challenging areas. Both with very

very similar scorecards. Virtually identical in every respect. One is a

school called Notre Dame College and is rated by Ofsted as good. The

other is a brutal school sahd to require improvement. -- Bootle

school. Oddly, the results differ, with the Bootle school having better

results in places. And the head of Notre Dame has been invited to take

over the other school based on this judgment. To add to the irony, I

taught in the latter school in the 70s, under a saintly headmaster who

on stepping down became not a consultant, not even on Ofsted

inspector, but timetabled hhmself to teach remedial maths too hard to

reach pupils. He had a glorhous sporting tradition, numbering Jamie

Carragher and Ukip's deputy leader among his long life. I know

absolutely nothing of its ctrrent incarnation but my suspicion, basing

on the evidence provided by Ofsted is that Ofsted have little reason to

be confident in their verdict either. Hence the need for ` right

to challenge. Ofsted verdicts shape the destiny, determine the structure

and the ownership and the vdry survival of schools. Not to have the

right to challenge such a f`llible system, and it is clearly a fallible

system, is not only demoralhsing but fundamentally unjust. Isil love Mr

Speaker. The question is th`t the honourable member have leavd to

bring in the Bill. As many `s are of the opinion see aye. It would be

helpful if the promoter of the bill would with enthusiasm. On the

contrary, no. The eyes have it. Who will prepare the verdict? Mx

enthusiasm is undiminished. Tom Brake, Greg Mulholland, Mr Lark

Williams, Stephen McCabe, Fhona Bruce, and myself.

Ofsted inspections schools rights of challenge Bill. Second readhng, what

day? Friday the 11th of March, 016. Thank you. We come to the motion in

the name of the leader of the Democratic Unionist party. On the

timing of the referendum on EU membership, to move the mothon I

call the leader of that party, Mr Nigel Dodds. It gives me grdat

pleasure to move the motion on the order paper standing in my name and

that of right honourable and honourable friends. The refdrendum

on EU membership is, of course, one of the biggest decisions th`t the

people in this country will be asked to make in our lifetimes. And I and

glad that we are being offered and afforded the opportunity to have our

say and we on these benches campaigned long and hard whdn the

two major parties were against the referendum. We were in favotr of the

people of the United Kingdol having their say. And I commend thd

government on bringing forw`rd the legislation to allow the referendum

to happen. The debate we ard having today is about the timing of the

referendum, the date on which the vote will be held. Today in this

debate there will be those who will be in support of our motion who hold

different views on the issud of EU membership itself. Indeed, on

whether we should be having the referendum at all. But we are agreed

that whatever side of the argument we be an, ultimately when the

referendum is finally held, we are agreed that there must be the

fullest, most comprehensive debate possible, which does not ovdrlap

with or otherwise become enleshed in the election campaign is happening

in May for the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly, or at the London

mayoral elections. I am happy to give way. I am grateful. Dods he

take comfort from the fact that the views he expresses have been

endorsed by all the parties in the Welsh Assembly, including the Labour

leader, the Plaid Cymru leader and the First Minister? I think the

honourable member makes an dxtremely important point which I will come

onto. There is a cross-partx nature of the motion and the sentilents

behind it. This is not motivated by one side or the other in terms of

the referendum debate, or ott of a party political consideration

because this has the support of such a diverse range of parties on all

sides of the argument. I thhnk it is therefore an issue which nedds to be

taken very seriously indeed by the government. It is not one that can

be lightly dismissed. It is not one that can be set aside easilx because

of the breadth of support that it has among the parties and, hndeed,

the major parties he mentioned, the Conservative Party, in Wales, the

Labour Party in Wales, the Labour First Minister in Wales, and it

would be interesting to notd the position in Scotland in rel`tion to

the main parties there as wdll. I give way. I thank the honourable

gentleman for giving way. Would he agree that having elections to

devolved administrations and the campaign for the European rdferendum

running in parallel could of the state the issues, could confuse

issues when politicians shotld be concentrating on the printable

issues of health and educathon and working towards evolving government?

-- running in parallel could obfuscate the issues. The honourable

lady and I may have different opinions on this issue, but this

illustrates the point that we are agreed on the need to have ` full

and proper brands of debate which is not caught up in the election

campaigns to the devolved administrations. But I will go into

that in more detail. I will give way. I am very grateful indded and I

would like to commend him and his party for the work they havd done

campaigning for an EU referdndum long before it was fashionable. I

wonder whether or not the honourable gentleman's consideration of this

matter was also the fact th`t there is a European Council meeting

scheduled for the 23rd of Jtne, the favoured date for the EU referendum,

and whether or not he thinks it would be appropriate for an EU

Council meeting, and who knows what reports will be coming out of that,

to be on the same day as thd referendum? The honourable

gentleman, as always, makes an interesting point which will have

been listened to by his minhsterial colleagues with great interdst. That

is a valid point. I will give way and then I will make progress. I

wonder if his constituents will be paying more attention to thd

European Council meeting on the 23rd of June or the Northern Ireland

fixture against Ukraine on the 6th of June, and actually maybe his

constituents have got other things in their life rather than Etrope is

a constant feature in their psyche. -- as a constant feature. As my my

honourable friend says, it hs not an either or. People are capable of

investing in a critical deb`te, and watching the football and doing

other things. If we are havhng this debate because the referendtm is

happening during a European football event, that is another argulent

Given the fact that so many fans from England, Wales and Northern

Ireland, sadly not Scotland, will be travelling to France, it is another

good reason to avoid all thd extra costs of postal votes and proxy

votes and all the rest of it and have it on a different date.

Given that he accepts the good people of Northern Ireland can focus

on more than one thing at once, football and politics, surely they

can focus on whether they h`ve local elections and a European referendum

at the same time? It isn't `n issue about the voters. Nothing about

confusion. It is patronising to talk on those terms, it is about the

deliberate choice to rush the referendum on most days. I will give

way one final time and then I will make progress. It is about lore than

the voters who are quite capable of concentrating on the Europe`n

Championships which we envy, it is on the administrations becatse ours

respect order and the three administrations will be there for

ten of the 13 weeks. I don't know if that has been considered? From his

very considerable experiencd he makes a very salient points. I want

to make progress and will t`ke interventions later. This ddbate

isn't about the substance of the referendum, and which side to be on

all the substance of the de`l the Prime Minister has negotiatdd so I

will pass over the details of that. It is quite surprisingly easy to do

so. What I want the House on all sides to consider is the result of

the referendum. Whether it'll be morally binding, politicallx

conclusive, whether we can settle this debate is for a generation we

can of course do that but on the current timetable, I fear that we

weren't. I think this is a needless folly, not at least for the party

end, there is time to reconsider even now in their own best hnterest

in the long term and I belidve they should. Let us be clear, thhs is not

about any suggestion that the public cannot choose. That a comprdssed

electoral cycle will as somd have said will be too complex, of course

people can choose and peopld understand the issues beford them,

it is not about their choicd and less their ability to choosd, it is

about the Prime Minister's desire that they should choose in this way,

in this time and should indded be set up an the referendum so wide

June if that is the date of the referendum, no minister has made the

case for an early referendul? Ministers have extolled and observed

the virtues of electoral colmittee guidance in past polls at all

levels, general elections, local elections, devolved elections and

yes both the national referdndum and of course in the recent Scottish

referendum. So why this house on the public are entitled to ask `re they

seemingly intent on kicking over their own past precedent, why is

this to be so very different to all that has gone before?

Given the congestion of events in May what does he make about the

comparative coverage in the media covering the referendum and

elections in our own backyard? Very often despite the ability of the

public to discern the different issues at stake in different

election questions, the medha very often becomes fixated on ond issue

and undoubtedly will concentrate heavily on the referendum ddbate and

will look very little at thd elections that will be happdning in

the devolved regions. That hs another good argument to sax the two

should not become enmeshed. Is he aware in Sweden in 94, therd were

two month between a general election and a referendum and Denmark there

were two months between the general election and the referendum on the

Amsterdam Treaty, in Malta there was one month between the two and

Switzerland there were 15 referendums in 92 alone, is he

suggesting these countries have abrogated their responsibilhty to

the general public? I think that is a strange argument to make. We have

had elections in Northern Ireland and elections elsewhere and on the

that is neither here nor thdre. We that is neither here nor thdre. We

have made the point people `re quite capable of stepping up the hssues in

terms of what they are being asked to consider. What we are considering

is the impact on the functioning of the devolved administrations and the

ability of political parties to campaign and work with others if

necessary on those issues, the issues of purdah and the issues of

devolution. It is about these important issues and when I say the

First Minister of Northern Hreland, Scotland and Wales take the decision

to write jointly along with the Deputy First Minister in thd 3rd of

February, setting out the c`se for a no June referendum and arguhng for a

debate leading up to the European decision to be free of other

campaigning distractions, that needs to be taken very seriously. It needs

to be treated with the respdct that it deserves. We hear a lot `bout the

respect agenda and this now needs to be put into practice, this hs a very

important moment I think in this Parliament as to how the Government

will actually respect the ddvolved administrations. On Thursdax, I was

asked to be given any views on dates in June is, they had only rtled out

the second and the night, does he think that says something? H come

onto the issue shortly, I w`nt to concentrate on the issue of the

leaders of the administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern

Ireland, again they have very different views from very dhverse

backgrounds. The leader of the SNP, the Labour Party in Wales, the

Democratic Unionist party and the leader in Northern Ireland Sinn

Fein, a pretty diverse group of politicians with very different

backgrounds, but they have come together knocked out of polhtical

interest but in the interests of the people they represent in thdir

respective countries as leaders Setting aside political

considerations, people in the yes side, people on the remains side and

people on the Leaf side, with the common interest that these

referendums should not happdn in June. The Scottish First Minister

has rightly observed any calpaign will inevitably come intertwined

with the Stormont election so how could it not? He and I ice dffect

will be voting the same way that I suspect. Can I say from the

Eurosceptic English point of view, we know our arguments and wd say to

the promised bring it on, no delay, don't look worried, bring it on and

we can have a proper debate and when this. I very much respect the point

of view. As an English Eurosceptic I understand where he's coming from, I

hope you understand where wd in Scotland, Northern Ireland `nd

Wales, from on both sides. We will wait up the arguments and consider

whether his view should be tempered as a result of the contribution

There is a phrase in the motion which stands out in my mind as being

pretty strong stuff, I welcome an explanation where he describes it

being needlessly premature `nd risks contaminating the result. I thought

we had originally establishdd across the House that the electorate can do

both, I'm not sure how it whll be contaminated. I think it is pretty

obvious Mr Speaker that somdthing that the Conservative Party has

debated for many decades now and has had concerns about probably when the

deal is finally finalised and the teas are crossed and eyes are

dotted, deserves more than `n 1 week campaign to discuss in detail.

If they are really interestdd in putting this debate once and Frodo

won the fullest and most comprehensive debate possible. Would

he agree with me that there does seem to be a consensus emerging that

people want the seriousness of this position to be examined, debated,

devolved and voted upon and that we need to have that discussion and

debate unencumbered by regional influences and other issues that

will undoubtedly be sidelindd by the media. Which can take place at a

time beyond June this year, later in the year. I agree with my friend who

has set out the position cldarly. Indeed the Prime Minister hhmself

only last month was pretty unambiguous as well about this. He

said I'm not in a hurry and can hold my referendum at any time up until

2017 and it is more important to get it right than rush it. My fdar is

that he is rushing it and not getting it right. I have sole

sympathy with the arguments as a Welsh member of Parliament for the

reasons of noes and others. Can he clarify the debate on what they too

thinks it should be held. -, purdah. In legislation the Government itself

have set the end of 2017 as the backstop. I think personallx the

longer the debate the better in terms of giving people the fullest

and most contented debate btt I personally would be content to have

the referendum in the autumn. We don't have to go until the dnd of

2017 but we certainly should go beyond June and not have its

enmeshed with the elections we have spoken about. The question has to be

asked and a lot of people asking, what is the Prime Minister `fraid

of? What is he afraid of in the summer which she thinks the voters

should not risk see happening over the course of the summer whdn they

consider the issue of the British membership of the European Tnion.

What are the mistakes he anticipates they will make? What is it he is

really worried about? That brings me onto some of the scare storhes are

certainly going around sadlx and getting currency. Some of course are

simply knock-about stuff without which politics would be much dollar

write about. But someone should not write about. But someone should not

be casually repeated. In anticipation of our referendum to

decide our EU membership on the grounds of what is in our n`tional

interest, I entirely acknowledge the rights of friendly foreign

governments to say how that might affect them. What I do not `ccept

and what I can hardly believe is happening from the mouths of serious

figures who should know better is the absurd nonsense that solehow a

British exit could in itself facilitate the rise of Irish

Republic on terrorism again. It is hard to know what is worse `bout

claims that these that they are either criminally irresponshble or

that they are logically fattous And exit would not cause any terrorism

all exasperated, it is not the UK's membership of the European Tnion

decides this. Those in recent weeks who have claimed terrorism would be

in courage -- encouraged ard peddling scare stories of the very

worst nature. I can only hope they will not repeat them and ard ashamed

of them. It is worth outlinhng that in the Northern Ireland aff`irs

select committee, every single witness to date has underscored and

reiterated what my right honourable member from north Belfast h`s just

said, that there is no chance of terrorism being affected ond way or

another. The honourable gentleman reinforces the point very strongly

and I look forward to reading the outcome of the reports. It would be

very useful in Northern Ireland and indeed more widely. In elathon to

the Electoral Commission we have provided a body to administdr these

things. It is not wholly without default or floor I have to say that

it has been consistent in how this should be conducted. It has said

that the needs of the other elections in the first half of this

year in fairness all combindd to mean the referendum should not in my

view the on the 23rd of Jund. In the process. The governmdnt has

taken additional powers to determine how the referendum should bd run. --

they are not in charge of the process. It is an interesting

question that the designation process is still murky and tncertain

and I wonder who benefits from that. Before the campaign started in

Scotland, both Better Together and yes Scotland had been designated

lead candidates for either side What is the point, Mr Speakdr, what

is the reason for the government floating its guidelines for the

first time? To do so is telling and not in a good way. The Electoral

Commission has said we do not currently know when we will be able

to run the process to appoint lead campaigns. The government is

planning to hold the referendum in June and frankly it is not fair

play. It is foolish gameplax. Having taken to themselves to set the date

of resignation for campaigndrs and for the referendum, it puts in the

forefront of the eyes of sole of their intention to read the process.

It would be foolish to succtmb to this temptation. I say to the

government, the Prime Minister and his successors will regret `ny

perceived fixing of this referendum. We had some of this debate hn

relation to the issues around Purdah and so forth. They should ldarn from

that debate and also from 40 years of debate among their own p`rty on

this issue. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman forgivhng way.

On the matter of the advice of the Electoral Commission, can I raise

with him a growing concern that the designation process will finish up

overlapping the referendum period, and in a letter to me, the chair of

the Electoral Commission noted that the commission had recommended that

the statutory period, the shx-week process for designation shotld take

place shortly before rather than during the first weeks of the

referendum period. Early designation would provide clarity earlidr for

voters and campaigners about the status of campaigners. Does he agree

that it would be unforgivable of the government to allow by sleight of

hand this corruption of the designation process? I completely

agree with what the honourable member has said and I think it

should be noted clearly by the government. They need to get on with

this and have this resolved. It would be scandalous if mattdrs were

allowed to drift and drag and it would call into question thd

government's handling of thd referendum and its fairness,

throwing into doubt and givhng cause for people to question whether we

have had the final decision on this matter. If the government w`s wise

it would want to ensure that once people have spoken on this latter in

a referendum, that everyone would accept, on whatever side, whatever

the outcome, that that is the decision for this country, taken in

a proper weight under the proper rules and everyone will respect that

for the foreseeable future. To do otherwise, I think, is short-term

opportunism. In conclusion Lr Speaker, we need to face up to this

very important issue, the thming of the referendum. We need to dnsure

that the government respects the commission and respects the devolved

administrations in Northern Ireland and Scotland and Wales, on `n issue

of such import we must put the national interest above every other

consideration. We must respdct the rights of the people to go to the

polls in May and we must allow for the fullest possible debate on the

biggest decision to be made by this country for generations, and for

those reasons I commend this motion to the House. The question hs as is

on the order paper. I call the menaced. I am delighted to respond

to this important debate. -, I call the Minister. I should start by

commending the DUP's long standing support for the principle of holding

a referendum on the EU. The Member for Belfast North has mentioned that

they were there earlier than many. Before we get too far into ht, I

think it is important for us to remember that any debate about the

referendum date needs to be undertaken in the condition`l tense.

In other words, to make a statement of the blindingly obvious, the

for the referendum is not ydt set. for the referendum is not ydt set.

As the prime Minster has bedn consistent in saying, it's

renegotiation and then referendum. The renegotiation is not yet

complete and so there is no referendum date as yet eithdr. And

given that, and the range, the devolved party range of intdrest and

asking for the referendum not to be held in June, given that no date has

been set, why is the governlent so reluctant not to seeds to the views

of the right honourable gentleman? I'm about to come onto the point I

think it would be disrespectful to the principle behind the referendum

act that says that the date for the referendum has to be said, `nd

through a statutory instrumdnt in due course. When that point comes,

there will be opportunities to debate that. I will come on to the

dates that have already been ruled out for the honourable gentleman's

benefit. I will give way and then I must make progress. I am gr`teful,

so early in his remarks. But following on from that, we

appreciate we are not talking about a specific date, we're talkhng about

the principle of certain dates. Therefore, would he comment on the

appropriateness of holding the referendum on the same date as the

European Council meeting? I appreciate that my honourable friend

is an in situ is follower of matters European and he may be one of the

very few people in the country who pays that much attention to the

musings of the European Council But I think they would be honoured to

feel that their conclusions had as much weight with anyone elsd as they

clearly do with him. But I `m trying to address some of the broader

issues underlying his questhon. Because the renegotiation h`s not

been completed and we do not have a date for the referendum set, I say

this because I suspect some colleagues may gently and khndly try

to tempt me into some hideots indiscretion in revealing a planned

referendum date, whether in June or in any other month between now and

the end of 2017 when the referendum might be held. For the sake of our

collective mental and emotional health, and as well as having to

save us a lot of time, I thought I should take this opportunitx to

advise any amateur criminologists hoping to glean any clues about the

date of the referendum from close analysis to my remarks not to

bother. There are no clues. I wonder if the Minister will answer this

very simple question. Notwithstanding what he has said,

does he agree with the points raised in the letter by D3 first mhnisters?

I will come on to address those points in a second. -- the letter by

the three first ministers. H will repeat that there are not any clues.

To quote Alan Greenspan, thd famously gnomic and opaque former

chairman of the Federal Resdrve I guess I should warn you if H turn

out to be particularly clear you probably misunderstood what I meant.

He went on to say, I know you think you understand what you thotght I

said but you need to understand what you thought you heard is not what I

meant. In other words, thesd clues are to be avoided. If we do not know

the precise date for when the referendum will be held, we know

when it will not be. It will not be made the sixth or the 4th of May,

because both of these days `re expressly forbidden under the

legislation. It will also not be within six weeks of the 5th of May

this year as promised by thd Prime Minister. These exclusions `re

important even if we do not yet know the exact date of the referdndum

because they create and guarantee enough space and time betwedn any

other upcoming elections and the referendum to make sure the

important issues in each set of polls are dated fully -- debated

fully in each case. I am gr`teful to the Minister forgiving way. A ten

week period specified betwedn the government publishing its rdsponse

to the negotiations and the referendum date, presumably because

this House thought that ten weeks was the length of time that people

needed to digest that inforlation. Would then be wrong for thrde of

those ten weeks to happen dtring an elected campaign that affects 2

million people voting in thd referendum a few weeks later? I am

just about to come the point. I am sure the honourable gentlem`n will

come back to me if I do not answer it then. This issue matters because

May the 5th will be a busy time at the ballot boxes. We have only a few

-- we have votes for devolvdd legislatures and the middle of

London, so I am not arguing that it is impossible to hold more than one

election in the same place on the same day. Last year we saw local

council elections take placd at the same time in many places in the

country without democracy collapsing in a heap and that shows th`t we are

capable of handling such a situation comfortable. -- comfortably. My

honourable friend from Dorsdt said that everybody is capable of walking

and chewing gum at the same time. Thank you forgiving way. Accepting

what he said, does he agree that the difference year is that the

referendum will absorb the linds and hearts of people throughout the

United Kingdom like it has not done for 40 years and that we must do

that unencumbered with any other electoral consideration at the same

time? I would agree with part of that point. The point is th`t the

overlap needs to be dealt whth very carefully and we need to make sure

that we are not trying to rtn two things at the same time. Because it

is perfectly feasible to have an overlap provided you accept that we

have a six-week gap as a minimum between two points. I would remind

the House that the six-week gap is the full length of a general

election campaign. We decidd the government of this country on the

basis of a six-week campaign. And I think that is a very good example of

why it is perfectly feasibld to make such a decision. I am sorry to tell

the Minister but after six weeks of a general election campaign, my

constituents are pretty chedsed off with politics. I think we nded to

understand that not everybody in the country is as excited about politics

as we are in this place and actually you need a short campaign where

people can focus on the isstes and make a decision at the end of that

short campaign. Absolutely. Europe is one of those issues which may be

extremely exciting to a small number of people are in this place and in

the half mile around us, but if we bang on about Europe, to usd a

phrase, for too long, I think we run the risk of turning people off the

idea of this whole issue, ilportant though it is. Having a decent period

of time, which we used to ddcide general elections, is something

which the country is used to, and which the electorate is used to It

gives us 20 of time for a ftll and in-depth discussion of the hssues

that need to be covered but without necessarily boring everybodx to

tears and turning everybody off by the time we get to the ballot box.

We have to have a gap, I colpletely accept, but that is the point. I am

grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene. Shnce

Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and will do for a long pdriod to

come, I expect that the Prile Minister of the United Kingdom will

come to campaign in Northern Ireland to remain in the EU. I think it

would be very helpful to thhs debate if the Minister could confirm that

the Prime Minister will indded come to campaign within Northern Ireland,

but will do so after the Northern Ireland assembly elections `nd not

before? I thank the honourable lady for giving me the opportunity to

commit the premise's diary hn such a way. I think that would be ` career

limiting move if I did so. H'm sure he will have an opportunity to

respond to that point. I am sure that the Minister would agrde that

the decision on remaining in the European Union is at least `s

important as the decision Scotland had to take on remaining on leaving

the United Kingdom. Their w`r 5 0 days between enactment of the date

and the date of the poll. Wd're not suggesting that length of thme but

if you are saying ever needs to be a free and open discussion, it should

be longer than potentially six weeks. Respectfully, that is were I

would part company with the honourable gentleman. While it would

be stretching a point to argue that holding two polls in the sale space

six weeks apart would be prdjudiced to the results of other one,... Can

I just finish this point? Btt because a six-week minimum which

would be the minimum length would provide plenty of time for dxtreme

and for the third Democratic debates to take place. ... Of I went to the

gentleman has prime debated around the chamber that he has entdred most

uncharacteristically from a different doors and is seatdd

differently, it is not disorderly but it is mildly confusing, I hope

you might prime be led back to his normal position in due course

because we will also so much more comfortable. With the minister be

kind enough to tell us with respect to the date, the final date being

the 31st of December 2017, that it would be a slam dunk that wd would

not have the referendum chedring the French presidential elections in

April and May 2000 and 17th nor the German Federal elections in 201 as

well. , firstly congratulatd my friend for sitting in a different

mind and a different approach to mind and a different approach to

keep us on our toes. I have to confess that on the specifics of his

question, that is not something which is then factored into any

discussion so far. Perhaps they should be able take that aw`y if I

can. The motion also notes the best practice. Reports on previots

referendums have taken on board many recommendations such as pre,polling,

we also take on board areas such as the recommendations to change the

wording of the referendum qtestion. Also the draft conduct regulations

which sets out the tough fr`mework for the administration to stop these

are only a few of the thoughts. I'm slightly puzzled why the Minister is

praying the Government rule out May the 5th, the same date as the

elections in Scotland, Northern Ireland and London, my memory is the

Government did that unwillingly when they were facing certain defeat in

legislation so white is the noun paying this is a government

concession? I'm just referrhng back to my nights but I don't thhnk I