Browse content similar to 25/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
progress. I think as far as rural committees that do not have access | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
to high-speed broadband and modern communications, we continue to have | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
a job to do. Two weeks ago, the Leader of the House was unable to | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
answer if legislation to ratify the convention citing the Queen's | :00:16. | :00:23. | |
Speech. Would he be able to tell us if the Government would still be | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
able to ratify this convention that aids the protection of women or are | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
there plans to suspend that also? I have no doubt that of the people of | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
this country vote to leave the European Union, we will continue to | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
play a very active role in the international bodies of which we are | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
part, very active role in the international community as a whole. | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
Whatever happens in the future of this country, we will always be | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
internationalist and always will do right thing by this country on the | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
international stage. The incompetent Tory Labour administration the | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
coalition of Stirling Council will present its budget this evening. | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
That will include savage cuts to social care across the Stirling | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
area. Government pressure has been put on local Government financed by | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
the austerity agenda of his Government and welfare reforms. | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
Could we have a debate on this urgent matter? Well, of course, the | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
overall framework for economic success and for funding in Scotland | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
rests with the SNP. The interesting thing about this week with the | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
fiscal framework is they are now going to have to take decisions in | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
the future about the right balance between lower taxes, public spending | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
and they will find it a whole lot more difficult than they think. | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
Farmers in my constituency tell me that the basic payment scheme, as | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
delivered late, is somewhat chaotic. Can we have a statement from the | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
relevant Secretary of State about the performance of the ruble | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
payments agency? -- rural payments agency? I am happy to draw his | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
concerns to the Secretary of State and if you would like to write with | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
some more specific examples, it makes it easier for ministers to | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
look at what is going wrong. Could we have a debate or a statement on | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
EDM 1138 regarding the anti-lobbying or gagging Clause, which was | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
announced that the Cabinet office just before recess with little or no | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
scrutiny or consultation. It threatens the ability of | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
organisations and charities in receipt of Government grants from | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
speaking out campaigning either for or against Government policy and it | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
be scrapped immediately. Mr Speaker, the honourable gentleman has do | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
understand that in Government, we find on a number of occasions bodies | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
that are being funded by us are using the money that we are | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
providing from the taxpayer to lobby us. That makes no sense at all. The | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
Cabinet Office is trying to deliver sensible regime and when it comes | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
before this House, he will be able to debated the way he wishes. -- | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
debate it. Point of order, Joanna Cherry. On a point of order, I would | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
like to seek your assistance in relation to a matter of some concern | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
to me. It has been brought to my attention that on Monday the 22nd, | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
out with my presence and without notifying me in advance, the | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
honourable member for South Leicestershire raised what he | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
described as a point of order during which he said I had misled the | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
House. I should make it clear that notwithstanding his conduct, I have | :03:26. | :03:27. | |
afforded him the courtesy of notifying him I would be raising | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
this point of order today. On Monday afternoon, I asked the Prime | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
Minister what provision he would make it a British sovereignty bill | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
to recognise the principle of unlimited sovereignty of Parliament | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
is a distinctive English principle that has no counterpart in Scottish | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
constitutional law. In the last part of that question I was directly | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
quoting the words of a distinguished and no discrete that late deceased | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
Scottish judge in a very well known case from 1953 -- and now deceased. | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
The judge was my comments were an expression of opinion, not essential | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
to the decision and therefore not legally binding as a precedent, but | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
they were an expression of his loan at opinion and had been given way to | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
in the years that followed. Many other distinguished Scottish jurists | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
hold this view and as recently in 2005 in Jackson against the Attorney | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
General, Lord Hope of Craighead said in the Lords that Parliamentary is | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
of intrigue is an English principle -- sovereignty is an English | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
principle derived from Coke and Blackstone. Is perfectly okayed for | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
the honourable member of South Leicestershire to disagree with me, | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
particularly if he can about his position but what is not in order is | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
for him to say I have misled the House when I had taken trouble to | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
use my words carefully and am quoting a very well-known diktats | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
from Scots law. Mr Speaker will be aware it is a matter of particular | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
concern to the given my professional background that I should not be | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
represented have having misled the House and I would be very keen if | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
the Speaker could give me assistance in putting the record straight. I am | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
extremely grateful for the honourable and learning lady for | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
notice of her point of order for which she has informed the House, | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
she has notified the honourable gentleman, the Member for South | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
Leicestershire. By the way, for the avoidance of doubt, I have do decide | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
what is and isn't in order, that is simply the constitutional position. | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
I confirm that members should indeed in former colleague of an intention | :05:30. | :05:38. | |
to refer to him or her. The point of order raised on Monday by the | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
honourable gentleman the Member for South Leicestershire was, I think I | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
can so describe it, moderately orderly in form. Although as I | :05:47. | :05:54. | |
noted, it was not orderly in content, for one quite simple and | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
straightforward reason. It was not a point of order. As a mere politics | :06:01. | :06:09. | |
graduate, I do not myself intend to adjudicate between two learned | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
members of the House. And I know that the honourable and learned Lady | :06:16. | :06:24. | |
is a distinguished QC, on over to addict by senior judicial figures, | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
and I will not give a view from the Chair. The honourable and learned | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
lady has made her point with her characteristic force and eloquence. | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
Might I suggest that we leave it there? Point of order, Mr Chris law. | :06:41. | :06:49. | |
The point of order regarding rules of behaviour and courtesies in this | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
House. During prime ministers questions yesterday, when junior | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
doctors are looking at yet another strike in England and Scotland may | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
be dragged out of unwillingly or unfairly based on the polls with | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
regards to the Brexit, we had this spat between the Prime Minister and | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
the Leader of the Opposition regarding mothers opinions and | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
behaviour and dress code but we have been told off for clapping in this | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
House. The reason is we have had not only a number of complaints from | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
constituents is through e-mail and phone calls and I wanted to ask your | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
advice on what the rules of behaviour should be and how they | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
should be conducted and whether the Prime Minister should be giving a | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
full and proper apology to this House for his conduct. I am grateful | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
to the honourable gentleman for his point of order. There is an | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
important distinction here between the content of what is said and the | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
way in which, more widely, honourable and right Honourable | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
members behave. In respect of the first, might I suggest to the | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
honourable gentleman that it would not be right or in any way favoured | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
by the House, if the Chair, as a matter of regular course, were to | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
try and intervene to prevent members expressing their own views with such | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
examples or references to people outside of the House or members of | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
their families, as they think fit. I shouldn't get involved in that and | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
the House wouldn't want me to do so. However, in respect of the second | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
part of the honourable gentleman's point of order, that is to say the | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
overall notion of good behaviour, perhaps I can just repeat what I | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
have many times said - the public expect us all would want us at any | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
rate to conduct our arguments robustly and doubtless with passion, | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
but with respect for the fact that different opinions exist. Loud | :08:51. | :09:00. | |
heckling and organised barracking are widely deprecated outside of | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
this House. The notion that there is something clever about it and that | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
it is all very good fun seems to me to be completely perverse and I | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
would very politely say, with no reference to any particular | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
honourable member, perhaps all honourable members, before indulging | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
in noisy heckling, barracking or ad hominem abuse would ask themselves | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
this - would I be content for my behaviour to be seen and heard by my | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
constituents? It is our constituents that we are here to serve. The point | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
is so blindingly obvious that only a very clever and sophisticated person | :09:46. | :09:54. | |
could fail to see it. Perhaps we can leave a matter therefore today but | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
I'm genuinely grateful to the honourable gentleman and I rather | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
suspect the flurry of e-mails that he might have received about conduct | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
will not be an isolated case. I get quite a lot in my own office. | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
Perhaps we can now come to the general debate on European fears, I | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
call the Foreign Secretary, Mr Philip Hammond -- European affairs. | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
In just under four months' time, the British people will face a choice, | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
one that has been denied to them for many years, that we pledges to give | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
them in our election manifesto and we are now delivering -- pledged. A | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
choice that will have profound consequences to this country for a | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
generation or more, whether to remain in the European Union on the | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
basis of the deal negotiated by the Prime Minister or to leave. The last | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
time the British people were consulted on this question 40 years | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
ago, the answer was a clear yes, but much has changed in the 40 years and | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
the fact that we are holding this referendum there is recognition of a | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
growing unease at the direction in which the EU has evolved, a growing | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
sense that Europe was pursuing a goal that Britain did not share, and | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
that we risked being dragged into a level of political integration for | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
which few in Britain have any appetite. Mr Speaker, for 25 years, | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
I have shared that sense of unease. I have always considered myself a | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
sceptic and I consider myself a sceptic today. Like most people in | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
Britain, I don't feel any warmth or affection for the EU or its | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
institutions. I am irritated by the tone of much of what I hear coming | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
from Brussels and instinctively suspicious of anything that sounds | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
like a grand project. But we do not live in some ideal world, we live in | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
the real world and the EU is part of that real world and the question | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
that we have to answer is not do we like it, the question we have to | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
answer is whether we are stronger, safer and better off in the EU | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
rather than out of it. Stronger because our global influence is | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
enhanced by being a leading member of the world's largest trading | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
block. Safer because working together with EU partners | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
strengthens our defences against organised crime and terrorism. | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
Better off because Britain benefits from having a domestic market of 500 | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
million consumers and the clout that a quarter of the will's GDP gives | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
the EU in negotiating trade deals. I am grateful. The Prime Minister | :12:33. | :12:43. | |
said in recent days that his view of the European Union's impact on our | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
collective security had changed over the years because of his experience | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
as Prime Minister. The Foreign Secretary would probably be thought | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
of by many people as having a Eurosceptic background. Has his | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
experience as Foreign Secretary also changed the balance of his view on | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
the European Union's impact on our collective security? Yes, it has. I | :13:12. | :13:20. | |
have seen in practice how working together with EU partners is an | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
important tool in our armoury. The EU will never replace the security | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
benefit that we get from Nato. It does a different thing. We have seen | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
in the conflict over Ukraine that economic sanctions, which is the | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
only practical weapon available to us, in responding to a challenge | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
from Russia, that weapon properly honed and properly used will prove | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
to be a very important weapon in our armoury against Russian aggression. | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
This government has quite rightly been critical of previous | :14:06. | :14:07. | |
governments for not having an independent audit of the national | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
finances. A very discordant noise, nothing | :14:11. | :14:24. | |
like as mellifluous as the voice of the honourable member, to whom I | :14:25. | :14:37. | |
know he will be apologising. We have set up the Office for Budget | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
Responsibility, and the Foreign Secretary is doing a cost benefit | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
analysis of this issue. Why doesn't the government institute an | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
independent study with a genuinely independent body, and go into some | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
detail about what would be the effect of a Brexit on GDP. I think | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
the problem with the challenge that he presents is that we simply do not | :15:02. | :15:10. | |
know what the counter fact Joe Willis. We do not know what -- | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
counterfactual is. We do not know whether a deal could be made, we do | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
not know what free trade agreements could be negotiated with other | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
parties and we do not know on what timescale bulls could be achieved. | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
We do not know what damage would even to our economy in the meantime. | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
I fear that the kind of objective analysis that my honourable friend | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
is seeking might be difficult to achieve. I will give way. I am very | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
grateful to the Foreign Secretary. He is advancing the case of the | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
benefit of Britain's membership of the European Union. He may like to | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
hear the verdict from Britain's manufacturing industry. From | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
yesterday the employers Federation, I took part in a debate of the | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
senior member of the call to Leave campaign, and at the end of which | :16:05. | :16:15. | |
800 of the UK's companies voted 83% to stay in the European Union. I am | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
not surprised by the figure that my honourable friend quoted because in | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
the world of manufacturing, where manufacturing supply chains at | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
increasingly complex and internationalised, the operation of | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
the customers union will be increasingly important to the | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
competitiveness of British businesses, and there are | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
substantive reasons that business can see for remaining in the | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
European Union. But there is another reason over and above. Business | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
hates uncertainty, and the one thing which is becoming crystal clear is | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
that whatever the end state, if there was a British X it, whatever | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
the end state might be, for a period of years, maybe many years, there | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
would be very significant uncertainty which would act as a | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
chilling effect on investment, job creation and business confidence in | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
the United Kingdom. I will take one more intervention then I must move | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
on. I am very grateful. I appreciate your just a couple of minutes into | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
the speech, but in the opening minute we heard a series of negative | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
words used to describe our relationship with the European | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
Union, suspicious, sceptical, and I do wonder what our friends in France | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
and Germany might be thinking watching this debate, that someone | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
who is apparently in favour is using such language. Is this the type of | :17:51. | :17:59. | |
debate we can expect? I think it is important that our friends and | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
partners in Europe understand, and I say this to my colleagues regularly, | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
that for the great majority of people in this country, there is no | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
passion about European vision. We find in some European countries | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
genuine passion for the idea of Europe. That is not the British way. | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
There are lots of people in this country that believes we should | :18:25. | :18:26. | |
remain in the European Union because it is good for Britain and the | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
economy, because we are stronger, safer and better. That is not the | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
same as being passionately attached to some vision of a European future. | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
I am going to make a little progress if my friends will allow me. The | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
Prime Minister's pledge was to engage in a series of reforms with | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
our partners in Europe to get the EU back contract and change the terms | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
of membership to protect our interests, then to put the question | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
to the British people. He has delivered on that. I will give way | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
in a moment. So the question is whether to stick with what we know, | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
bank the games that the Prime Minister brought back from Brussels, | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
and fight from the inside for reform, or take a leap into the | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
dark. For me the answer is clear. I am a sceptic who will vote with my | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
head to remain, because I know in my heart it is what is right, best for | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
Britain. I will give way. I am grateful. I share his view that what | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
the Prime Minister has returned with is better than what we had before. | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
But can he say something about the legal status of that agreement, and | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
in particular the assertion by the Lord Chancellor that it is not | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
legally binding? I respect the fact that the Lord Chancellor has a | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
different view from the Prime Minister, but how can his vision be | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
tenable as a senior legal Minister for the government, arguing that the | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
deal is not legally binding when the Downing Street position is the | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
precise opposite. That position is untenable, and Cabinet | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
responsibility has been stretched too far. Big principle of collective | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
responsibility has been suspended to allow ministers to express a | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
different opinion from that of the government. At our position is | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
clear. This is a legally binding agreement, deposited yesterday, | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
registered yesterday at the United Nations as a treaty. The | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
overwhelming majority of qualified legal opinion recognises that this | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
is a legally binding international law decision. I will give way to my | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
honourable friend then I must make progress. I am most grateful. Could | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
he explain to us what effect actually registering the document | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
the UN has, what effect does it have, and on what basis does he say | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
that it is legally binding? I am not a lawyer, so it is not about what | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
basis I say it is legally binding but there has been a plethora of | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
qualified legal opinion supporting the view that this is a legally | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
binding decision. Registering it at the United Nations records it as a | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
treaty status international law obligation, and that document will | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
be taken into account by the European Court of Justice. Its own | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
decisions in a case have established it must have regard to interpreted | :21:31. | :21:37. | |
as decisions by heads of state and government, and the government | :21:38. | :21:39. | |
itself makes clear that it is legally binding. I am going to make | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
a little progress. I want to recall just what we set out to achieve and | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
what has been delivered. First, we set out to protect British jobs and | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
ensure a level playing field in Europe for British business because | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
the creation of the Eurozone and the greater level of coordination needed | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
between Eurozone countries created a real risk that non-Eurozone | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
countries would either be dragged into integration that we do not need | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
or want, or that businesses with Discover discrimination because of | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
our decision to retain our own currency. So alongside the crucial | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
exemption of steps further integration, we needed to negotiate | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
clear safeguards for the pound, exemption of British taxpayers from | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
eurozone pay-outs, protection against discrimination from | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
Britain's world leading financial services industry, a clear role from | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
the Bank of England and a clear commitment that we will continue to | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
have a fool said in the single market while not being part of the | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
single currency. -- full. This delivers all these demands in a | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
legal and binding agreement, underpinned by all EU member states | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
to enshrine the safeguards in treaty change. I thought my honourable | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
friend would take his cue from the use of the words legally binding | :23:03. | :23:10. | |
again! I am grateful, but what he is not doing is using the other words | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
which are also part of this package, legally binding and irreversible. As | :23:15. | :23:23. | |
he knows, that is a highly contentious question on which it is | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
clear from the evidence that has been received and indeed from the | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
European scrutiny committee's own report, that this is not | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
irreversible. I have to disagree with my honourable friend. The | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
document, the decision is irreversible, unless Britain chooses | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
it to be reversed, because it could only be reversed by all 28 member | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
states agreeing. I can assure him, certainly as long as this government | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
is in office, Britain will never readily to that happening. Does he | :23:59. | :24:07. | |
agree with me that the interview this morning on the BBC, with the | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
former prime minister was very useful indeed, because he believes | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
that the number of opt outs with Denmark are based on the same type | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
of legal basis and they have not been reversed in the years that they | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
have been in place? She is right. The Danish agreement has been in | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
place for 23 years, and continues to serve Denmark well. The second area, | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
I am going to make progress, the second area we set out to address is | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
Europe's impact on competitiveness. What we have achieved is a | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
commitment to completing the European single market in services, | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
a key area for Britain, given the importance of this sector, in | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
digital, and energy to ensure greater competition and lower energy | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
bills, and in capital, ensuring greater access to sources of finance | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
for entrepreneurs. We have also delivered a clear commitment to | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
prioritising international trade agreements with the largest and | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
fastest-growing economies across the globe, with the potential to boost | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
our economy by billions of pounds a year. Agreement to cut the burden of | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
EU regulation on business, with specific targets to be set for key | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
sectors. This builds on a programme of work which the current commission | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
is already undertaking, which has already slashed by 80% regulatory | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
proposals, and bakes the approach into the DNA of the European Union. | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
The third area in which this deal delivers is in ending the abuse of | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
the principal of free movement to work, in order to access the | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
benefits of our welfare system, paid for by a hard-working British | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
taxpayers. We have already ended access to unemployment benefits and | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
social housing for new arrivals, and limited their time in -- to six | :26:07. | :26:19. | |
months. It stops EU nationals from dodging British immigration rules to | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
bring family members from outside the EU to live in Britain. Under | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
this agreement we can apply our rules, including the minimum income | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
rules and the English language competence rules. Attends the | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
unfairness of child benefits at British rates being sent to children | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
in other countries with lower living costs. And it gives us a seven-year | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
emergency brake to ensure that EU migrants will not have full access | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
to in work benefits until they have been in the UK for four years. And | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
selling the perfectly reasonable question, why should people take out | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
when they have not paid in? Under this arrangement, they cannot. No | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
more something for nothing. Taken together this is a package that will | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
address the concerns of the British people around the abuse of the | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
benefit system and erosion of our immigration and controls. On child | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
benefit, will he confirm that it does not meet the promise set out in | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
the Conservative Party manifesto which says, if an EU migrant's child | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
is living abroad, they should receive no child benefit or tax | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
credit, the matter how long they have worked in the UK and no matter | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
how much tax they have paid. That has not been achieved. | :27:39. | :27:46. | |
Mr speak I think what any reasonable person would do is look at the | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
package that has been delivered. From the outset we have been clear | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
that tackling the abuse in the welfare system is about reducing the | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
pull factor that makes Britain a target for inward migrants coming to | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
the UK, because they can get their wages topped up with a variety of | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
benefits. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating and although | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
my honourable friend can pick on a specific part of the package, I | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
think most reasonable people will want to look at the package in the | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
round. I would just like to make edible progress, the fourth area in | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
which this deal delivers concrete change is in protecting us from | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
political integration under the mantra of ever closer union. The | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
British people have never believed in political union and have never | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
wanted it. Now there is a clear and binding legal commitment to a treaty | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
change to ensure that the United Kingdom will never be part of it. | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
That is a crucial change that alters fundamentally the UK's relationship | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
with EU setting out clearly in black and white that the UK destination | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
will be different from the rest the European Union. I'm extremely | :28:58. | :29:06. | |
grateful but to the point on child benefit, it was actually a promise | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
in our manifesto. So how are people going to look at the 2020 | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
Conservative manifesto when we promise things when we cannot | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
deliver them? Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister gave a commitment to go to | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
Brussels, to negotiate hard and bring back the very best deal that | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
he could achieve. That is what he has done, I think people will look | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
in the round at the commitments that were made and what has been | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
delivered. And in the end it will be the British people that give their | :29:36. | :29:45. | |
verdict on the package. I give way. He's talking about the opinions of | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
the British people, does he not accept that there is a divergent is | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
across United Kingdom with clear majorities in Scotland in favour of | :29:54. | :30:00. | |
the United -- of being in Europe. I grew up in the Highlands and | :30:01. | :30:07. | |
Islands, and there are roads and bridges that simply would not be | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
built, if it was not for the European Union. There is a lot more | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
sympathy especially among the people in Scotland. Mr Speaker this is a UK | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
wide question and referendum, and I sincerely hope that when the dust is | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
settled and the counting is done, he will discover that a significant | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
majority of people across the United Kingdom believe that Britain is | :30:32. | :30:38. | |
better off stronger and safer inside the United Kingdom. But I had to say | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
to him that I hope that when the debate plays out he has got a | :30:42. | :30:43. | |
stronger Hardiman than they bunged us if you quit to build a road. | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
Because frankly, that is not a sustainable argument across the | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
European Union as a whole. Madam Deputy Speaker I'm going to make | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
some progress if I may, I'm going to make some interventions and if | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
finding so I know I am conscious and heating into the time for the | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
debate. Madam Deputy Speaker we have also set out to strengthen the | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
powers of this Parliament, and of the British people. In the last | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
Parliament, through the 2011 European Union act, we legislate to | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
ensure that no more powers could be handed to Brussels without the | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
explicit consent of the British people in the national referendum. | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
That act introduced a vital check on the one-way ratchet of the trough of | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
flowers, licensed to in Brussels. Shatov transfer of powers. Breaking | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
the ratchet once and for all. To return powers from Brussels back to | :31:41. | :31:47. | |
the national parliaments. The new parliament working together with | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
other national parliaments will be able to block permanently proposed | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
EU legislation that George of them do not want through a red card | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
system. -- that the majority of them. What we signed at The European | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
Council last Friday as I have said is legally holding his button and | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
all and had already been registered as a treaty at the United Nations. | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
Authoritative legal opinion is clear on this point, it cannot be undone | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
without the consent of every single member state without Britain and the | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
agreement commits all member states to changes in due course to the EU | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
treaties to enshrine the protections for Britain has a nonmember of the | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
Eurozone hand to confirm explicitly, that ever closer union does not | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
apply to the UK. I will give way one more time. I thank you to my right | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
honourable friend for giving way comedy phrases and self incredibly | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
carefully. He says quite carefully that the agreement is binding | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
international law, which is not justice your ball, it is not binding | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
in European law where it only has two hard by the Appeal Court of | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
Justice. And it is not irreversible otherwise it could not say in | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
section eight, "The substance of this section will be incorporated | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
into the treaties at the time of the next revision in accordance with the | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
relevant provisions of the treaties and the respective constitutional | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
requirements of the member states". If it requires the respective | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
constitutional treaties of member states, that means that if they are | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
not followed they are not implemented. Mr Speaker, in a | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
decision, the ECJ itself made clear that it had to take account of a | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
decision of this nature. I say to my honourable friend and to others who | :33:43. | :33:49. | |
repeatedly make points about illegally binding nature of these | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
agreements, that we are having a substantive debate about the future | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
of Britain in or out of the European Union. What we have got is a package | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
that has been agreed by all 28 countries, endorsed by the heads of | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
states of governments of all 28 countries. It is not only legally | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
binding, it is a very solemn political commitment and I would | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
advise them to address themselves to the substantive issues that we are | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
debating here today. The substantive issues about Britain's place in the | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
European Union and what the world would look like, from the | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
perspective of a Britain outside of the European Union. I'm very | :34:29. | :34:36. | |
grateful indeed to the Foreign Secretary, for making way. I want to | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
talk about a substantive point he made at the outset, the Prime | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
Minister are claiming that somehow this deal in France is the security | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
of Europe and the I suggest to my right honourable friend that by | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
asserting that the EU has a role in the defence matters of Europe, they | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
are going down and extremely dangerous line, by playing into the | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
hands of those like Mr Junker, who want an EU army, supported also by | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
Chancellor Merkel. And that we face a real risk that Nato is going to be | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
undermined and that the fronds secretary and the Prime Minister | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
should address this issue rather than having a junior spin doctor in | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
number ten twist the arms of senior former military officers to sign a | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
letter to the Daily Telegraph, written by a junior official in | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
number ten to which two of the senior signatories have already | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
resile. My honourable friend who served with me in the Ministry of | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
Defence will know that no one is as alert as I am to the risks of | :35:42. | :35:50. | |
undermining Nato's crucial role in underpinning the defence of Western | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
Europe. We have always been very clear, that any role of the European | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
Union in relation to our defence must be complimentary to hand in no | :35:58. | :36:05. | |
way undermining Nato. But I would remind mile rubble friend, -- | :36:06. | :36:16. | |
undermine Nato. That when we took action, to protest British citizens | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
from pirates off Somalia, it was a British Admiral in northwards but it | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
was a European Union mission that carried out the task. We too look to | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
roles where the European Union can augment our security and we have | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
seen that across the piece in organised crime, terrorism, | :36:40. | :36:41. | |
counterterrorism and we see it today. We have seen it over past | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
years. I am going to make a little progressive might honourable friend | :36:48. | :36:55. | |
will allow me. These changes with our existing opt out from the euro, | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
Schengen and other measures give Britain a special status within the | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
EU. Indeed a unique status, one that gives us the best of both worlds. A | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
seat at the table to protect our interests, but a permanent opt out | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
from those areas of the EU which we reject. Out of ever closer union and | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
political integration, out of Schengen, out of the euro, and out | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
of Eurozone bailouts. So this is a significant package, delivering the | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
substantial legally binding and irreversible changes that we | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
promised. But let me be clear, no one is suggesting that it solves all | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
of the problems of the EU. This deal is not the end of the reform of the | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
EU, but it is an important step. On the road. Madam Deputy Speaker in a | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
matter which side of the week run, he will be able at least to agree | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
across the as that this decision will be one of profound significance | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
for the country, it will be eight choice that will determine how | :38:03. | :38:12. | |
trajectory for one decade or more. The government will respect the | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
outcome and there will be no second referendum. The propositions on the | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
ballot paper are clear and I want to be equally clear today, leave means | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
leave. And a vote to leave, will trigger a notice under Article 50, | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
to do otherwise in the event of a vote to leave would represent taken | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
the disregard of the will of the people because no individual, has | :38:37. | :38:46. | |
the right or the power to redefine unilaterally the meaning of the | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
question on the ballot paper. I will give way to the honourable member. I | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
am very grateful to the Foreign Secretary and I think he is right to | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
make it clear that this is a one-time referendum, and the | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
decision is in or out. And if it is out, I think that the British people | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
need to know what it is out to, and doesn't he agree with me that it is | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
about time that the Vote Leave set out precisely what their vision has | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
side of the European Union would be. And -- outside of the Peter Uihlein. | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
I agree with the honourable gentleman. I hope that my remarks | :39:27. | :39:33. | |
would provoke some of my colleagues to put some flesh on the bone to | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
what leaving would mean. I do want to say what the consequences would | :39:39. | :39:45. | |
be to leave the EU and remain. Less than my point first of all and then | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
I will give way. A vote to leave is a vote for an uncertain future. That | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
is a simple fact. That uncertainty would generate immediate negative | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
reaction on financial markets, all market commentators would agree. | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
Indeed the mere possibility of a leave vote will have a chilling | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
effect on business confidence before the referendum and as the honourable | :40:10. | :40:16. | |
gentleman has already suggested we have already had a foretaste of | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
that. A vote to leave would have a fixed two-year time, to negotiate | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
the exit from an future relationship with the EU. We would of course seek | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
to reach agreement with the other 27 member states during that two year | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
period. But in the meantime, we will be able to offer British businesses | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
wanting to invest, no assurance at all about the future access to the | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
EU, and indeed to other markets. We will have nothing to say to Japanese | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
or American or Chinese companies, who come here looking for a bad from | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
which to produce an EU markets. This will truly be a leap in the dark, | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
and the effect would be to put the economy on hold, until the | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
negotiations are complete. And at the end of that two years, there is | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
no guarantee that agreement would have been reached, but our exit | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
would be automatic unless every single one of our member states were | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
to agree to an extension. Of the negotiating period. I give way to my | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
honourable friend. I am grateful to my honourable friend for giving way, | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
is he is rightly drawing attention to the potential impact on our | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
economy, may I just taken back to the issue of security. It was | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
earlier suggested that there would be no adverse consequences on | :41:41. | :41:42. | |
security from us leaving the European Union because we would | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
remain members of Nato. Did my right honourable friend here the remarks | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
of the former Nato Secretary General, who said "If the UK were to | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
leave the European Union, the voice of the UK would be weakened." "I | :41:58. | :42:05. | |
strongly would regret if the UK was to leave the EU, it would have an | :42:06. | :42:07. | |
impact on In the case of Mr Rasmussen, not | :42:08. | :42:21. | |
just a former Secretary General of Nato but also a former prime | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
ministers of Denmark, who can say something about the binding nature | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
of protocols that are made in the Unigate and is. It is important that | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
we acknowledge that security comes in different parts. There is | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
military security and issues about defence but there are also security | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
against organised crime. Security against terrorism. It is very much | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
in the latter two that Nato makes its most important contribution to | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
our overall security. The Foreign Secretary has just invoked Article | :42:59. | :43:08. | |
50, before that happened, would there be a vote in Parliament? And | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
would there be a vote in the Scottish parliament given the impact | :43:12. | :43:19. | |
under the convention? The government's position is that the | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
referendum is an advisory referendum but by making this statement, very | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
clearly now, that the government would regard itself as bound by the | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
decision of the referendum. The government will proceed with serving | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
and Article 15 notice. I understand that is a matter for the government | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
of the United Kingdom. If there are any consequential considerations, | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
they will be considered with the proper constitutional methods. I | :43:49. | :43:56. | |
rather concur with the Right honourable gentleman that before the | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
government can move to any action as a consequence of the referendum, it | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
would be essential for Parliament to debate the matter and for the | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
government receive consent from Parliament on that matter. There is | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
no obligation to go for article 50, second, we would be taking back | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
control over our borders, laws, the ?10 billion EU net we give to the | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
European Union and it would buy us plenty of options which the | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
government presentation seems determined to present us discussing | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
in the way he is presenting this. My honourable friend raises again the | :44:33. | :44:41. | |
suggestion that there is no need to treat an exit vote as triggering a | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
notice under article 15. He seems to suggest there is some other way of | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
doing this. He raised this question on Monday and I have looked into it. | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
He caught my imagination. But I have to tell him, that is not the view | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
and opinion of the experts inside government and the legal experts I | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
have talked to. That we are bound by the treaty until such time as we | :45:09. | :45:16. | |
have left the European Union. And ministers, the treaty is a document | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
of international law and ministers are obliged under the terms of the | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
ministerial code to comply with international law at all times. | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, the UK's current access to the single market | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
would cease if we left. Our trading agreements with 53 countries around | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
the world would lapse. It is impossible to predict with any | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
certainty what the market response would be. It is inconceivable that | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
the disruption would not have an immediate and negative effect on | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
jobs, business investment, economic growth and on the pound. Those who | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
advocate exit from the EU will need to address these issues in the weeks | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
and months to come, the substantive consequences of the kind that | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
British people will be most focused upon. I want to say something about | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
the environment in which these negotiations would be conducted. It | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
is crucially important to understand what a difficult discussion this | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
would be. Over the last 18 months, I have got to know pretty well my EU | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
counterparts and in many cases, their senior officials and | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
opposition figures in most of their countries and key figures in the | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
commission and the European Parliament. There is perhaps | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
surprisingly, and over one in consensus among them about the | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
importance of Britain remaining a member of the European Union. They | :46:48. | :46:55. | |
also are politicians. They have constituents to whom they are having | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
to explain even now why Britain adds so much value to the EU that it has | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
to be allowed a unique and privileged set of arrangements not | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
available to any other member state. They have collectively already | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
invested a lot of political capital in delivering on Britain's agenda. | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
If we reject the best of both worlds package that has been negotiated by | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
the Prime Minister, we reject the unique and privileged position in | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
the European Union on offer to Britain. The mood of goodwill | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
towards Britain will evaporate in an instant. That Madam Deputy Speaker | :47:33. | :47:42. | |
will be our negotiating backdrop. To those who say they will have to | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
negotiate. This is important, people are talking about a negotiation that | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
we might be having to have with 27 other member states. It is important | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
to think about the mindset of those other states as they go into that | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
negotiation. To those who say they will have to negotiate a sweetheart | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
trade deal with Britain outside the EU, there will be no desire at all | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
among the political elite of the remaining 27 member states to help | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
and exiting Britain to show it can prosper outside the EU. They will | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
interpret a leave decision as to fingers from the UK and we can | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
expect Kasai slid the same in return. The idea that they will go | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
the extra mile to ensure Britain can remain a destination for foreign | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
direct investment to serve the EU market or that the financial | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
services industry can compete in the European market on a level laying | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
field is fantasy. I give way to my honourable friend. Is it not the | :48:51. | :48:59. | |
case, I am showing respect, I think you have a weak argument. If I may, | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, can I ask the Foreign Secretary, is it not the | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
case that on foreign policy, the United Kingdom has a veto over | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
foreign policy in Europe? If we were to leave the European Union, the | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
United Kingdom would have less influence by definition an European | :49:22. | :49:23. | |
Union foreign policy and it is more likely that European foreign policy | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
would be dominated by France and Germany? My honourable friend is | :49:29. | :49:36. | |
right, these are the complexities. If we were outside the European | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
Union, we would not be bound by any foreign policy the European Union | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
had that we would not have any influence, in this case a decisive | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
influence, because of our veto over that. It is a judgment. People have | :49:48. | :49:54. | |
two way up the pros and cons. I will give way to my honourable friend. I | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
am grateful to him. He used the term political elite, he slipped into it | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
naturally. It is the politically elite that are main problem. They | :50:07. | :50:14. | |
ignore the voter. If it goes on, it will happen more and more. Rather to | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
my surprise, I rather agree with my honourable friend. I will use the | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
phrase political elite again in my speech because he is right. There is | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
a gap between what the political elite in some countries and what | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
their voters are thinking. The reality is, on this subject, the | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
negotiation on Britain's future relationship with the European | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
Union, it would be with the political elite that our negotiators | :50:46. | :50:52. | |
would have to engage. I want to make a little more progress. Another | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
point I want to make, any market access we agree with our former EU | :50:56. | :51:02. | |
partners will come at a high price. We know that because we know what | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
the basic models are for access to the single market for non-EU member | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
states. We look at Norway, pay up as if you are a member state, accept | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
all the rules as if you are a member state, allow full free movement | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
across your borders but have no say, no influence and no seat at the | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
table. Switzerland spent eight years negotiating... The honourable | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
gentleman can say it is silly but it is a fact. That is a fact of where | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
Norway is today. It is the fact it took Switzerland eight years to | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
negotiate piecemeal access on a sector by sector basis to the single | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
market. And that Switzerland has had to accept three times as many EU | :51:48. | :51:56. | |
migrants per capita than the UK has. Surely that cannot be the future for | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
Britain. That the leave campaign seeks, literally the worst of both | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
worlds. I am interested in his judgment as to the character of our | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
fellow EU countries. Is he really saying that Germany would be so | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
vindictive and spiteful but they would cut their own noses off to | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
spite their face? A White Paper says we export Williams in goods and | :52:23. | :52:30. | |
services to them but they export ?70.6 billion worth of goods and | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
services to us. A deficit of ?27.3 billion. Does he really think they | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
are sobering to the -- vindictive and spiteful, they would close the | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
door on that? I would make two points. He is right, Britain has a | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
substantial devastate in trade in goods with the European Union. If | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
all he was seeking was a free trade in goods, that would be relatively | :52:58. | :53:07. | |
simple to negotiate. But Britain will need much more than that to get | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
a fair deal for written's businesses and to protect the Tisch jobs. I | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
want to make another point. He is right that there will be economic | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
voices across Europe for a free-trade deal with the UK but | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
there will also be political elites looking over their shoulder at the | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
effect of a British exit. Looking over their shoulder at their | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
political opponents in their own countries are fearful that the | :53:43. | :53:44. | |
contagion, as they would see it, would spread. They would not wish to | :53:45. | :53:51. | |
do anything that will help us to demonstrate that Britain can succeed | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
outside the European Union. That is a simple political fact. Everyone in | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
this chamber is a politician, we know how that situation works, when | :54:02. | :54:08. | |
the chips are down, they will protect their political interests. | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
Would he agree with me that those advocating that we leave express a | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
big inconsistency. Saying that when we are in the European Union, we | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
cannot get anything we want but if we come out of the European Union, | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
we would get precisely what we want? Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
honourable lady has put her finger on it. This is where the debate will | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
hinge. Those proposing we should remain are proposing that we stick | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
with the proposition that we know and understand and layer over it the | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
additional benefits the Prime Minister has gained for us in this | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
negotiation. Those proposing that we should leave don't know what they | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
are proposing to the British people because they can't know. They can | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
tell us what they would like to achieve and what they could hope to | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
negotiate but by definition they cannot know until afterwards. The | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
British people cannot know until afterwards what the proposition is | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
they would be voting for. I want to move on and set out how I see the | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
consequences of Britain voting to remain in the EU. I want it to be | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
with the mindset of a leader. Having renegotiated the terms of our | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
membership and ensuring protections we needed, we need to be a louder | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
voice in the EU. Exercising our influence as written -- Europe's | :55:39. | :55:45. | |
second leading economy and leader of the reform movement. We need to stop | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
seeing ourselves as passive victims of the EU and see Britain for what | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
it is. One of the most powerful and influential member states to whom | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
others look for leadership to keep the European Union as a free-market | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
union, competitive and engaged with the challenges of the globalised | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
economy. We can take that role because Europe is changing. There | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
was a time where Britain really was in a minority approach but the | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
political balance across the EU is shifting away from an unquestioned | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
acceptance of the inevitability of more Europe to and engaged | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
scepticism and a desire for the EU to focus on where it can add value | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
and leave the member states to get on with their own business where it | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
cannot. A recognition of the benefits of membership with an | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
increasing focus on costs and a healthy pragmatism about the limits | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
of what BT you can deliver. In Denmark, Finland, Poland, Hungary, | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
other Baltic and Scandinavian states, we find ourselves in | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
like-minded company with partners who share our vision of the future | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
of Europe. Even in the Netherlands, one of the founder member states, | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
the mood has shifted sharply. In that country they have a slogan | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
which rather neatly sums up what most people in Britain think about | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
the EU. "National Where possible, Europe where necessary." Across the | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
continent as a whole, the population as opposed to the political elite | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
has become more sceptical about the EU and focused on the need for | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
reform and accountability. and I am deeply grateful, has in | :57:36. | :57:47. | |
notice that an increasing number of EU states, are looking, attic | :57:48. | :57:56. | |
enviously and seeing that this is a rich that they want to quality take | :57:57. | :58:04. | |
advantage of because there is a Jew and serve in does the political | :58:05. | :58:10. | |
elite? The honourable gentleman is right and that is the case, that | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
Britain can lead that reformist tendency within the European Union | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
that is subscribe to buy more and more member states and even more of | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
the populations, where the political elites have not yet woken up to the | :58:25. | :58:32. | |
new reality. Their task is clear Madam Deputy Speaker with our | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
neighbours, the package agreed in Brussels last week is a big enough | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
step forward to allow us to recommend to the British people | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
staying in the EU on the special terms. But do not for a moment | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
imagine that a UK recommitted to EU membership will rest on its laurels. | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
Expect to deal with the UK fighting continuously at the head of a | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
growing phalanx of like-minded member states, to keep the EU on the | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
track of reform and competitiveness. Expect us to police vigorously the | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
delivery of the promises that have been made on deregulation, | :59:09. | :59:15. | |
repatriation of powers, Eurozone fairness, single market fairness and | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
on trade agreements. The choice for Britain is simple, a leading role in | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
a reformed EU or a leap in the dark to negotiate from a position of | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
weakness with a 27 member states we would just have snubbed. Driving the | :59:31. | :59:36. | |
expansion of the single market and you trade agreements within, or | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
watching outside as the rules of the market are shaped by the interests | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
of others. Madam Deputy Speaker the special status that Britain now has | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
on offer, means that we can have the best of both worlds. Being given the | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
parts of Europe that work for us, and permanently out of those that | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
don't. Influencing the decisions that affect us, shaping the world's | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
largest market, cooperating to keep Britain safe, strong and better off | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
with the status of our pound and the Bank of England guaranteed, her | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
exclusion from Eurozone bailouts confirmed, out of the passport free | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
Schengen Area, permanently protected from further steps of integration | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
towards the European superstate and with new commitments Meydan | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
mechanisms established Djourou juice burdens on business and return | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
powers to member states. Of course there is more to do but as we move | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
towards the referendum, this government has no doubt that on | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
these terms, the United Kingdom is safer, stronger and better off | :00:43. | :00:53. | |
inside a reformed European Union. Order, the house has tested the | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
Foreign Secretary with a great many interventions this afternoon and he | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
has been most patient and courteous in fully answering those | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
interventions but it has taken quite considerable time. I warn honourable | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
members who have in their heads or in their hands long speeches which | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
they intend to deliver, that I will have two impose a time limit on | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
backbench speeches of some nine minutes later in the day. The | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
question is that this house has considered European affairs. Mr | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
Hilary Benn. Thank you very much indeed Madam Deputy Speaker, almost | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
41 years ago this has to pay to the terms of a renegotiation about our | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
place in Europe prior to a referendum of the British people. On | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
the 7th of April 1975, this is what the opening speaker in that debate | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
said. "For Many honourable members as for millions outside the house, | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
the issue is not limited to an assessment of the outcome of the | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
negotiations. Many have already made up their minds, there will be a | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
statue body of opinion who already believe that Britain should be in | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
the community to the great economic good Britain in a changing world. | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
Equally, there is a substantial body of opinion which is fundamentally | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
opposed to British membership, and which holds that no possible | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
renegotiation could have changed the nature of the community | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
significantly to enable it to support the British participation. | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
Those were the words of the then Labour Prime Minister Howells Wilson | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
who incidentally gave the British people a decision about their place | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
in Europe -- Howard Wilson. What that reminds us is that some things | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
never change. Although then it was the Labour Party, our party that | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
will spit over our place in Europe and the Conservatives were united. | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
Whereas now there has been a complete reversal of roles. History | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
is repeating itself in mirror image. I almost felt sorry for the Prime | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
Minister on Monday as members opposite listened, I will give way | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
of course. As we are talking about history can we at least agree on | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
this, that the right honourable gentleman's late lamented and great | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
father, and Enoch Powell were at least writing this during dosage | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
storage abates in the early 1970s, this was a unique endeavour what we | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
were signing up to was quite unlike any other treaty because it | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
establishes supremacy of the European Court of Justice over this | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
house. Can we at least agree on this, there is no halfway house, we | :03:39. | :03:49. | |
are either under EU law and it all we are not. This is why the Labour | :03:50. | :03:57. | |
Party decided, that people should have their say, because a transfer | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
of that kind of sovereignty is not a decision for the House of Commons | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
but for the British people, and the British people made their choice and | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
decided by a significant margin to remain in the European Community. | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
The point I was making about the Prime Minister's reception on | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
Monday, is that my right honourable friend, the member for Wolverhampton | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
South East is fond of describing some honourable members as the | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
desperate to be disappointed. I think it is fair to say that they | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
were indeed disappointed because they would never be satisfied. I | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
will give way. I am grateful to the right honourable gentleman for | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
giving way but just before he continues, he seems to give the | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
impression that the Labour Party is completely united on this position, | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
where is that really excludes public statements made by some of his | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
colleagues that they are in favour of leaving the European Union and | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
there are many labour organisations around the country already | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
campaigning to pull out. I'm not sure that I would bow to the | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
honourable gentleman's alleged great knowledge of Labour organisations. | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
But they have come overwhelmingly in support of remaining in the European | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
Union. If you look at the trade union movement, strong support for | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
Britain remaining for reasons that I shall come onto a little bit later | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
on. The truth is that we have changed our view, and actually it | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
strengthens the argument for us remaining in the European Union, the | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
point I was also going to make about the Prime Minister is that he never | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
was I think going to come back with a deal that he didn't feel able to | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
recommend because we know that he didn't want the referendum in the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
to concede it by the turmoil and to concede it by the turmoil and | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
disagreement on the benches opposite. I will say about the deal, | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
that it does contain some useful and important changes. Some of which we | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
called for. As the Leader of the Opposition, there was a commitment | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
in the manifesto. Detection in the pound because we are not in the euro | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
and it was the last Labour government that took the decision | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
that we would not join the euro, how wise a decision was that? Reforming | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
of the sending of child benefit back to children and the establishment of | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
the principle of fair contributions. Namely that those coming to work in | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
this country should pay in before they receive in work benefits. Madam | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
Deputy Speaker, the choice that the British people now face, will not | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
rest, on the terms of this renegotiation. I would argue that it | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
will rest on something much bigger and more important than that, and it | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
is this question. How would our economy and trading relationships | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
and the prospect for investment be affected by taking a step into the | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
unknown and how do we see ourselves, if the honourable gentleman will | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
bear with me. How do we see ourselves as a country, our place in | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
the world and in Europe, now and in the years ahead? What is the Labour | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
Party position on whether or not it would be appropriate for Scotland to | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
be taken out of the European Union? It is to respect the decision that | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
the Scottish people took in the referendum when they rejected | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
independence, we won the United Kingdom, and the decision will be | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
taken by the people of the United Kingdom. And on this side of the | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
house Madam Deputy Speaker, we are clear, we support Britain remaining | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
a member of the European Union. We held that due before the | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
renegotiation, we hold that view today, because it has brought us | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
jobs and growth and investment and security, and I would argue it gives | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
us influence in the world. The four exploit each of those benefits in | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
turn I want to address briefly the two essential arguments of those | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
opposite to think that we should leave. Namely sovereignty and taking | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
back control, of course I will give way. The right honourable gentleman | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
has just said that the EU has brought so much in a way prosperity | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
and jobs, of course that doesn't apply to some countries like Spain, | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
Portugal and Greece. They are also members of the EU, how is it that | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
they are suffering so much unemployment and low growth, and the | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
United Kingdom is prospering? Is not the difference that we as well as | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
being members of the EU are led by a Conservative government? I am afraid | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
that the right honourable gentleman is not going to tempt me to agree | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
with him on that particular observation at all, but I will make | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
the argument about the precise way in which those benefits that I have | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
just described have been brought to pass. Because of the opportunities | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
that membership of the European Union has given us. The original | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
decision to join the European Union was taken by this sovereign House of | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
Commons, it was a decision confirmed by the sovereign Jewish people, all | :09:12. | :09:19. | |
of the British treaty changes followed, including those including | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
qualified majority voting were included by Conservative and Labour | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
government and were approved by this sovereign parliament. What that | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
tells us is that we have chosen has a sovereign parliament, to work in | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
Europe for a purpose, to achieve things that we think benefit us and | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
our neighbours. The second argument is about taking back control, which | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
I have to say I think is a belief or some that somehow Britain standing | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
alone would have a voice that it possessed 50 is a go. Here I think | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker we have two be honest with each other, we live in a | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
different world now, to the one that gave birth to the European coal and | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
steel community after the end of the Second World War. We have witnessed | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
the end of Empire, the creation of the United Nations, indeed of the | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
European Union. The formation of Nato, the end of the Cold War, the | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
collapse of the Berlin Wall. We have lived through an era that has seen | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
the rise of new world powers, alliances, conflicts, threats, and | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
the blistering pace of technological change that is revolutionising our | :10:29. | :10:30. | |
economies and is shrinking the way in which we perceive our world. We | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
cannot turn the clock back. And to argue that we can is to mislead | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
ourselves and others. But what we can do is to use the qualities that | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
we hand the nation are blessed with, to make the most of the | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
opportunities that this new world presents to us. That is exactly what | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
this membership of the European Union helps us to do. Look at the | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
strength of London has a financial centre, look at the openness and | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
diversity of our society. The talent for creativity. The UK computer | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
games industry, he didn't even exist 40 years ago, it is now generates ?2 | :11:12. | :11:20. | |
billion a year in global sales. And supports nearly 30,000 jobs. The | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
worldwide reach of being this language, all of these things help | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
to make us the fifth biggest economy in the world. I will give way. When | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
we think about the City of London, we think about bankers, bad bankers, | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
and unfortunately, some of the disproportionately high banking | :11:43. | :11:44. | |
bonuses but banking is a necessary part of the economy but also the | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
pensions of this country are often found in the City of London which | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
affect every single person up and down the land. Does the right | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
honourable gentleman agree with me that an exit from the European Union | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
would make it more likely that banks and institutions and pension funds | :12:01. | :12:02. | |
would go to Frankfurt rather than London? | :12:03. | :12:10. | |
There are real risks, and the Foreign Secretary made the point in | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
his beach. It is legitimate to point out those risks. Which even the | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
honourable member for Uxbridge acknowledged in the article he wrote | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
in the Daily Telegraph. It is consideration we should take into | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
account. Half our exports go to Europe because we are part of the | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
single market. You have to think about the supply change and the | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
services, we also export around the world because of the deals were | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
European Union has negotiated with other countries. Incidentally, the | :12:44. | :12:51. | |
EU either has or negotiated trade agreements with 90% of Commonwealth | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
countries. I have argued with those who say that the EU has prevented us | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
better having better trade arrangements with Commonwealth | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
countries, that is not the case. Why on earth would we want to exchange | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
the certainty of the deals we currently have for the uncertainty | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
of the deals we might not secure? As we have heard and I thought the | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
Foreign Secretary made the point very forcefully. We have good trade | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
deals already. The only examples we have got of the alter and give and | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
he made reference to Norway. If you look at the arrangement Norway has, | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
Norwegians would say "I would not do that if I were you." It looks like a | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
pretty bad deal to us. It is one of the reasons the British trade union | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
movement changed its view in the late 1980s when Mrs Thatcher was | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
busy taking away trade union rights in this country and saw an | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
opportunity for workers rights across Europe. The EU has helped us | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
deal with some of the consequences of global change by protecting | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
workers in every European country. Paid holidays, the right to spend | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
more time with your newborn child from improved maternity and | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
paternity leave. Limits on working time, better protection for agency | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
and temporary workers. That is a striking sample of how working | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
together across Europe can protect workers. He has campaigned for many | :14:30. | :14:41. | |
years on behalf of Africa and trade with Africa and supporting | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
prosperity in Africa. What would he say to the protectionist policies of | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
the European Union which prohibited and make trade with Africa more | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
difficult? I argued precisely that Europe should be changing its | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
policies in relation to the common agricultural policy. I would say | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
something about development later in my speech because it seems that as | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
well is a strong argument as to why we should remain part of the | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
European Union. I will give way of course. I am grateful, before he | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
moves on from the list of employment rights guaranteed at EU level that | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
he has set out, does he agree with me that it is important to point out | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
that when those people who would take us out of the European Union | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
attack EU red tape and bureaucracy, it is precisely those rights they | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
are usually talking about West Chamakh right to equal treatment as | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
a part-time worker, these are examples of justice in the | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
workplace, not needless bureaucracy. I agree with him completely. I heard | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
one of those ministers advocating Britain's exit from the European | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
Union, when asked on television this weekend, he made reference to health | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
and safety. I would say health and safety is not red tape, not a | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
burden, it is about protecting British workers, German workers, | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
Spanish workers, when they go to work to make sure they can do their | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
job safely and securely. I would say if we did vote to leave, we could | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
end up with a double nightmare, there would still be a Conservative | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
government in this country and given past records, I am not sure I would | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
suffer that government to ensure we keep those rights that we currently | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
have. Madam Deputy Speaker, a more important reason why we should | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
remain members of the EU. It is the argument that Britain's influence in | :16:47. | :16:48. | |
the world is strengthened by membership of that union. It | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
promotes interdependence through trade. It advances our economic | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
security because it tackles conflict and other global challenges and | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
protects us from crime and terrorism. I would say there is | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
nothing patriotically about diminishing the United Kingdom's | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
ability to make its voice heard by other nations by stumbling out of | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
Europe and pulling up the drawbridge. That would serve, I | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
would argue, to harm our position in the world. Take the example of the | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
global economic crash in 2007-8. It shook the government -- it shook the | :17:28. | :17:35. | |
public confidence in government regulation, we needed more | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
cooperation between countries, if we are going to deal with the problems | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
of big companies that show an aversion to paying tax, Europe is a | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
good place to start. We should also acknowledge that the growth in the | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
number of member states in the European Union has been a very | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
powerful force for change for the better on our continent. The | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
prospect of membership offered to those former communist states of | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
Eastern and Central Europe, a powerful incentive to meet the | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
conditions for joining because they were creating an alliance ilk on the | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
values of democracy, respect for human rights, free media, the rule | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
of law and individual freedom. As the Foreign Secretary made clear, it | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
has helped us stronger in the face of aggression and problems around | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
the world. There are is no doubt that the sanctions agreed against | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
Russia have had an impact and they are biting. Although the Minsk | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
agreement has not been fully implement it, the conflict is | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
frozen. It is precisely because Europe was united that there was an | :18:48. | :18:56. | |
impact. Russia would see Britain leaving the European Union as a sign | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
of We have seen democratic change in | :19:00. | :19:57. | |
Burma. Saying that what the previous regime did was not acceptable with a | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
powerful force for good in the world. What these collective | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
displays of solidarity remind us of is that the power of working with | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
our European allies of doing good but the ongoing problems in Syria | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
remind us of our failure in that the titular continent. I am grateful to | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
him for giving way. In the event of a leave vote, there are two | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
possibilities, we remain part of the single market and are subject to the | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
same rules we have now, so what is the point of the referendum? Or we | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
seek to realign our trading approach but also British foreign policy, | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
away from the democracies of western Europe and the north Atlantic to the | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
dictatorships of the East. That would not be in our interest or in | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
the interests of Western liberal democracy. I cannot understand why | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
so many members opposite, who expect us to bat for Britain at European | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
Council summit is expected the other European states to do anything | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
otherwise? I would agree, I have just tried to demonstrate to the | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
house the benefit of working with our European allies to try and be a | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
force for good in the world. I was in the process of saying that Syria | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
is a terrible example of our collective failure as a world. I | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
would like the Foreign Secretary's commentary in his comments on | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
Tuesday that the ceasefire will be implemented and upheld but that | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
depends on Russia. Hence the point I was making earlier. Every single one | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
of these examples teach us that we need stronger international | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
cooperation, not weaker. I would say at this moment and in this century, | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
it would be extraordinary folly of our country to turn its back on this | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
vitally important international alliance if we are going to shape | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
world events. That is why, the Secretary General of Nato said | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
"Britain is a global player and a strong EU will also make sure Nato | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
has a strong partner in the European Union when we are facing the same | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
security threat." I will give way one more time but then I am going to | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
make progress because other members want to speak. On the foreign policy | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
question regarding Russia and all that, would the Shadow Foreign | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
Secretary like to comment on whether he thinks the Budapest agreement of | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
the 1990s was a good idea? To be perfectly honest, if I could say to | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
him, I am less interested in what happened in the 1990s, I am more | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
worried about what will happen in 2016, the big decision the British | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
people will have to take. I would argue that our national security is | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
served both by our membership of the EU and Nato, that cooperation across | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
Europe is essential to deal with terrorist threats. The European | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
arrest warrant is a good example of that and the case of the 21 July | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
2005, who was returned here from Rome where he had gone to escape | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
British justice demonstrates us working with our allies. It is why | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
the director of Europe poll, Rob Wainwright, said a British exit | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
would "Make Britain's job harder to fight crime and terrorism because it | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
would not have the same access to very well organised European | :23:37. | :23:45. | |
mechanisms in place today." I am going to try and bring my remarks to | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
a close, it is the greatest challenge that peoples and countries | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
of the world face at the beginning of the 21st century which is how we | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
deal with the interdependence of human beings. I will give way and | :23:58. | :24:06. | |
then I will continue. Incredibly kind of him, I wonder if he would | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
also agree about the importance of the EU when it comes to the | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
environment? It has not been mentioned yet this morning, but it | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
is my boredom than ever due to clean air, clean Seas and so on. I agree | :24:23. | :24:30. | |
absolutely with the honourable lady. The blue flag beaches are a good | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
example. We are not going to have clean beaches in brilliant -- in | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
Britain if we are not going to deal with sewage from other countries and | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
vice versa. I will later address climate change where Europe is | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
vital. The house is only too aware that with 11 billion people at the | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
end of this century, if we look at what is happening on our continent | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
in the last few months, the flow of refugees testing European solidarity | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
to the limit. What would the situation be like if the European | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
Union did not exist? The truth is it doesn't matter if people are moving | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
across the globe, fleeing persecution for a better life, | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
fleeing climate change. We are going to have to deal with the | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
consequences. We have not just a moral interest in tackling climate | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
change in tackling poverty, dealing with conflict, we have a practical | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
interest in doing so. I can say from my experience when I was a Cabinet | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
minister, the fact that European countries came together in the | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
run-up to Gleneagles saying this is what they were prepared to commit to | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
help to unlock commitments on more aid and help for the developing | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
world. The fact Europe went to climate change summit after climate | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
change summit with a commitment it was prepared to put on the table | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
helped to unlock the deal we saw in Paris. I would say the final | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
argument and it was the founding argument of the European project was | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
that it has brought peace to a continent that for hundreds of years | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
was scarred by war. And anyone who has been to walk along the graves | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
from the first and second world was, the flower of two generations of | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
Europeans, some bearing names, and how young they were, some, no names | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
at all, it really will -- merely reads "Soldier of the Great War, | :26:38. | :26:46. | |
known unto God." Because nobody knows who lies beneath those graves. | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
The one disagreement I have with the Foreign Secretary in that where he | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
says he feels no passion for Europe am I feel we should be passionate | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
about that greatest achievement of the European project. Which was, by | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
bringing nations together, through coal and steel, to make in the words | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
of the Schuman declaration "Future war not merely unthinkable but | :27:11. | :27:19. | |
materially impossible." Madam Deputy Speaker, the British people have to | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
make a choice between the fear that we have somehow lost our identity in | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
the world because we are part of the European Union and our experience | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
that in Europe we have amplified and extended and increased Britain's | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
voice in the world and that the British people have benefited | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
economically. I have changed my view since 1975, I am proud to be a party | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
of -- member of this party and that has also been on a journey. | :27:49. | :28:00. | |
The story of Britain is one that has been at the heart of global affairs, | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
at its best when we have been outlawed looking and confident. In | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
the 20th century we helped to build institutions that had given us the | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
chance to make progress, the UN, Nato and the EU. In the 21st-century | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
I don't think that we can reduce our influence, we cannot shut the | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
curtains and close the door and hope that the others will go away. This | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
choices about whether we face the future with optimism or not and I | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
believe that Britain's national interest is best served by remaining | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
part of the European Union, I hope that the British people will come to | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
that decision to. It is now their choice. Saint Nicholas Soames. Thank | :28:39. | :28:47. | |
you, may I first of all congratulate the honourable gentleman and the | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
Foreign Secretary, and I start my speech by saying that I warmly | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
congratulate the courage and tenacity of the Prime Minister and | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
his negotiating team including especially my right honourable | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
friend the member for Europe. Who has borne much of the heat of the | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
day, in a remarkable achievement and to say that I wish it well and I | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
wish has the right honourable gentleman would say, I wish that the | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
British people would have their say. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is the | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
70th anniversary year, of Churchill's speech on the cause of | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
the United Europe in Zurich on the 19th of September 19 46. It has | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
always struck me as being ironic that this speech has been claimed by | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
both sides of the European argument as being some sort of holy Grail. | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
But as I am daily on the receiving end of some vile e-mails from people | :29:47. | :29:56. | |
telling me that I'm a traitor to my grandfather 's memory, I thought I | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
would if I may. I'm most grateful to my honourable friend, though I | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
profoundly disagree with him on this issue, I hold in with the utmost | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
respect, and that these people disgrace themselves by their | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
insults. I am very, very grateful to my honourable friend. Of course the | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
speech was a speech of great precedents, and great vision. It was | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
also a speech of the most profound analysis. I will if I may, unlike | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
most of my honourable friend is, in this house, reflect into a little | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
more distance from Britain's experience on the European Union. | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
And in particular, my party's long-standing commitment to the | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
European cause. Madam Deputy Speaker reflect for a moment on the site of | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
what Europe must have looked like, the tragedy of what Europe must have | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
looked at in 1945. -- looks like. It is worth a house reflecting on it, | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
it is only in the winking of an high, it was only 71 years ago, that | :31:08. | :31:15. | |
the Germans signed instrument of surrender. It was only 70 years ago, | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
that the Russians drew down the Iron Curtain on a broken and software | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
used in your. And behind that line, in the wicked grip of a ruthless | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
regime, lay all the great capitals and states of Eastern Europe. | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
Warsaw, Prague, Berlin, Bucharest, Sophia. Most of the rest of | :31:40. | :31:47. | |
continental Europe lay shattered and broken. After six years of war. For | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
the second time in 25 years. There remained a vast mass of bewildered | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
human beings, who gazed at the wreckage of their homes, their | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
nations, their lives, their families, their possessions. | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
Everything. But from that awful scene of desolation, of sadness, of | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
ruin and despair, little over 70 years ago, something truly | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
remarkable has been achieved. Which has brought freedom, security and | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
prosperity. Way beyond the dreams, that anyone of that time would ever | :32:29. | :32:35. | |
have contemplated. For not only have the sovereign states of Europe | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
risen, Phoenix like from the ashes of two world wars, but they have | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
created of their own free will, a European Union of 28 members. | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
Comprising the biggest and most powerful single market in the world | :32:51. | :32:58. | |
of 500 million people. In which we travel with our fellow Europeans, in | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
prosperity, in peace, and in a constantly expanding era of | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
cooperation, prosperity, security, safety and freedom. And when the | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
Cold War ended, and the Berlin Wall came down on that glorious cold 9th | :33:16. | :33:23. | |
of November 1989, the Warsaw Pact collapsed into dust without ever a | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
shot being fired. Most of the Eastern European countries joined | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
the European Union. And most of them also joined it. Indeed there are | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
only six countries who are members of the European Union who are not | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
members of Nato. And why did they join? Because Madam Deputy Speaker, | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
the Europe and the Nato that they joined, were and are prosperous, | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
secure and free. And they wanted just as soon as they could, to find | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
shelter in those institutions who had benefited from a period of peace | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
stability, freedom and security, unprecedented in a thousand years in | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
European history. And which would protect them from a still predatory | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
Russia. There is no argument Madam Deputy Speaker that the European | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
Union was absolutely central to these developments. It is a very | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
great credit to our country, that we should have played such a leading | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
role in seeing all of this through. The European Union has achieved a | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
very great deal. But it cannot and it must not allow itself any | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
self-congratulation in these very difficult times. For although we can | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
see that the ice has melted on the landscape of the second half of the | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
its forms has shifted hand is its forms has shifted hand is | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
shifting rapidly and unpredictably, how inadequately most of the | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
institutions of the European Union have coped. This must be remedied. | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
As we look across Europe, with all of the achievements that it has two | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
its name, the pervasive mood is one of insecurity, of lack of confidence | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
and optimism. These are characteristics not only found in | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
Europe. And the troubles of government everywhere speak to the | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
anxieties of their electorates and sadly to the mistrust of their | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
politicians, there is tuitions and their leaders. The public across | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
Europe know only too well, that the world of easy answers instant | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
solutions and declaratory statements, RA constructed -- RA | :35:40. | :35:48. | |
constructed of politicians and media. And as power shifts so | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
rapidly, you might almost believe that we are today at the start of a | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
new history. Nowhere are these difficulties and insecurities and | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
lack of understanding more obvious than in this country of ours. I am | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
always wary of trying to work out what Churchill might have thought | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
today because I think it is an impertinence to do so. But one thing | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
I absolutely know, that has the world has grown bigger for Britain, | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
the opportunity is greater, the chances mortgage ring for our | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
commerce and our people, so the people who practice politics and | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
government in this country and especially those who write about it, | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
have a sadly cramped and limited view of Europe and the rest of the | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
world. So in this campaign, one of our most important tasks, all of us, | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
whatever side we are on. He is to remind our fellow citizens, that we | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
share a region, a climate, Marshall via history, tomography, our | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
economic space and our culture, with other countries of the European | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
Union. Something that Churchill pointed out very strongly in the | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
Zurich speech. Our intellectual and cultural life are all intertwined | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
with Europe, we face shared problems in endless comparable ways, as the | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
the environment questions in which the environment questions in which | :37:24. | :37:34. | |
Europe has been extremely effective. But how shallow media engages with | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
none of this, or the interests vital to us or our European partners, | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
allies and friends as our friend suggests now. That was the position | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
until very recently, now that the media has finally woken up like the | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
great Slack monster that it is to the awesome prospect of combat, | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
newspaper cells in competition as each side of the argument tries to | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
persuade fellow citizens of the right way. Madam Speaker I rejoice | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
at the Strawberry achievement of the Prime Minister had what he has | :38:10. | :38:10. | |
achieved in Brussels and I commit achieved in Brussels and I commit | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
myself to make the case to the best of my ability whenever I have the | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
opportunity. And I'm struck by the scale of support for the European | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
Union, from British commerce and business both large and small, and | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
most especially, in the important letter in the Daily Telegraph | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
yesterday, from four former chiefs of the defence staff and other | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
service chiefs on the great importance of the European Union in | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
the security sphere. I believe that the case to remain is overwhelming | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
on all fronts, but there is no point in pretending that the European | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
Union doesn't face many major challenges where it has to find a | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
better and more effective way of resolving. The refugee crisis for | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
example has made the European Union look deeply ineffective, surely | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
reactive and it is clear that Schengen can survive without the | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
most dramatic reform, and that the external borders of Europe. None of | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
us can feel happy that the European Union which has brought such great | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
stability to so much of the European continent, now appears to be weak | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
and uncertain, its unpopularity matters and it is damaging. So my | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
our government will seize the our government will seize the | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
moment, and having discovered and rediscovered the great value of | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
extremely energetic and skilled diplomacy, the Prime Minister, the | :39:42. | :39:43. | |
Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe and others will really | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
push ahead to the EU to drive with like-minded colleagues the big | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
reforms that Europe must follow. They will find willing friends who | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
also want to do the same. There is an enormous agenda that Britain can | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
play to hand will play a leading role in, in economic reform, energy, | :40:01. | :40:08. | |
defence, foreign policy. There are practical and radical steps that can | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
be taken. Madam Deputy Speaker may I finally indulge myself by recalling | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
the end of Churchill's great speech to the Congress of Europe in the | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
Hague in 1948. And remember that the founding fathers of Europe, with a | :40:26. | :40:32. | |
noble vision, built this astonishing edifice on firm and very lasting | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
foundations. This is what Churchill said at the Hague conference. "A | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
High have sole responsibility rests upon us here this afternoon in this | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
Congress of Europe striving be reborn. If we allow ourselves to be | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
rent and disordered, by pettiness and small disputes, if we fail in | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
clarity of you will courage in action, a priceless occasion may be | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
cast away forever. But if we all pull together, and we pull the luck | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
and the comradeship, and we shall need all of the comradeship and all | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
of the luck, and firmly grasp, the larger hopes of humanity, then it | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
may be, that we shall move into a happier, sunlit age. When all the | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
little children who are now growing up in his tormented world, may find | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
themselves not the victors, nor the vanquished in the fleeting trials, | :41:38. | :41:46. | |
in the bloody turmoil of war. But the cares of all the treasures of | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
the past and the masters of all the science, the abundance and the | :41:51. | :41:51. | |
glories of the future. Those of us who fight the good fight | :41:52. | :42:03. | |
to remain do so with confidence and humility and profound respect for | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
those who hold very different and long-standing views to us. But in | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
the sure knowledge that this issue is about Britain's fundamental place | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
in the world for a generation to come, for a confident and open | :42:19. | :42:28. | |
engaged pro-European Great Britain. Could I call the honourable member | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
for Gordon who is not on a time limit. Can I warn members that | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
backbench contributions will be limited to nine minutes. Madam | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
Speaker, I am delighted to follow the Right Honourable member for Mid | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
Sussex. I have not always found myself in such agreement with the | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
Right Honourable member over the years we have been members of this | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
place. If I remember correctly, we were elected back on the same day in | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
1987. I am delighted to follow him today, not just because we will be | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
on the same side during this buffer Rendon campaign, which might be a | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
first as well but the nature of the argument that he pursued in his | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
speech. I am absolutely convinced that from the remaining point of | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
view, the argument has to be presented at that kind of level. | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
About the big issues, things that really matter if we want to get | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
people to polling stations to vote to continue membership of the | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
European Union. I should not tempt my luck but I hope the honourable | :43:39. | :43:47. | |
members homage to his grandfather's achievements may spread to one of | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
the other is to Jewish and is where he had substantial influence on the | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
Council of Europe, the European Convention and the Strasbourg Court | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
of Human Rights. 47 countries brought together in respect of human | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
rights, an achievement for Winston Churchill and Scottish lawyer David | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
Maxwell Fyfe. We will count on that support when that battle is to be | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
waged in the not too distant future. Saying about the level of his | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
contribution today, I would make this appeal to the Foreign Secretary | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
and to the Prime Minister. I was trying to make the point earlier | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
this week, if you look at the politics of this, by | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
inevitabilities, numerically, arithmetically, if the case for | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
Europe is going to be one, then the bulk of votes to win it will have to | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
come from the Labour Party, SNP, Green party and Clyde Comrie. I | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
would say the Liberals as well but as the most pro-European party, they | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
seem to have deserted because, hopefully momentarily. The | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
Conservative Party achieved 37% of the vote in the general election and | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
even if the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are successful in | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
carrying a majority of that vote into the remain camped as I hope | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
they do in the coming referendum, that would be roughly 20% of the | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
electorate. To win a referendum, as I know too well, you cannot achieve | :45:22. | :45:30. | |
37%, 45%, but more than 50%. Arithmetically, the bulk of that | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
winning vote, as I hope it will be, will be from those who voted for | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
Labour, SNP, the Green party and played Comrie and the progressive | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
side of the ticks. That affects how arguments need to be presented. With | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
great respect to the Foreign Secretary and I can understand why | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
because the Tory ministers arguing a pro-European cores are like a wagon | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
train surrounded by hostiles. They have to hitch themselves on a | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
certain type of the argument. He started his speech by saying he was | :46:04. | :46:15. | |
still a Eurosceptic despite his conversion to the end cause. It is | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
an argument that may be useful in fending off be hostiles but is not | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
necessarily an argument that will grip the attention of the bulk of | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
voters who need to be convinced by the European argument. For the | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
Labour Party and ourselves, the achievements of social Europe are | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
important. Achievements that have come and things that could still be. | :46:39. | :46:46. | |
For the Green party, environmental issues are a huge moment, these are | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
things that have to be even more decided on that continental scale. | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
The arguments on refugees, for those of us on the progressive side of | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
politics, we want to see the country do more in terms of solidarity with | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
the refugee crisis that has this set Europe. In addition to being | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
positive and confident about Europe's achievements, which the | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
Right Honourable gentleman spoke about. The prosperity of the single | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
market and the achievement of workers rights that converted so | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
many on the progressive side of politics in the 80s and 90s to the | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
European cores. This argument cannot be presented as if it was just about | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
the largest faction in the Conservative Party. It has to be to | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
command majority support across the country. Secondly... Can I ask, he | :47:38. | :47:49. | |
is making an eloquent point as ever, can I ask him a simple question, | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
does he think the left of centre vote across the United Kingdom and | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
Scotland will support a political construct that has inflicted pain | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
Yury on many people in southern Europe in pursuit of the discredited | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
money policy driven essentially by Germany, is he proud of that, is it | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
socially progressive? It is exactly the sort of area we want to debate | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
because we want to see a Europe that builds a covenant, not as he puts | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
it, enforces that, that is exactly the argument why we want to change | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
the focus of Europe in terms of how it does and achieves things. I will | :48:30. | :48:39. | |
give way to him slightly later on, but I want to reflect on one point | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
where I have particular experience. A bit of honesty is called for, as a | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
First Minister who lost a referendum and then resigned the next day, I | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
did that because I did think it is edible for a First Minister or a | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
Prime Minister to continue in office in the circumstances. I do not | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
believe the Prime Minister and I do think the majority of his party or | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
the country believe it when he says he would sail off from this if he | :49:09. | :49:17. | |
had to negotiate an out of the European Union after telling people | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
it was essential to the security and prosperity to the country, as he put | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
it last week, for us to be in it. There is evidence to suggest the | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
Prime Minister has form on these matters. On the 17th of September | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
2014, he said that the question on the Scottish referendum was not | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
about his future but the future of Scotland. He would continue | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
regardless of the result. By the 28th of September, 11 days later, he | :49:45. | :49:52. | |
confided to a Scotland Sunday newspaper "If the vote had been for | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
Scotland to leave the UK, I genuinely would have been | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
heartbroken, I would have winded and wounded. Emotionally one would have | :50:01. | :50:03. | |
thought I am so saddened by this that I find it difficult to go on." | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
I saying that, I think he meant in office as opposed to anything more | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
substantial. That attitude has been confirmed by a number of people | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
since. I suspect that the idea Prime Minister could continue in office | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
having lost such a vote is to calling a phrase "For the birds." | :50:25. | :50:31. | |
Which is why the Honourable member for Uxbridge is right in one bit of | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
his apparent calculations, I am hoping that would allow Opera | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
Minister as he puts it, to negotiate our way back into some sort of | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
European construct on better terms. The second half of that probably is | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
for the birds but on the first half, a vacancy being available, I think | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
that Honourable member has a point. I think the prime ministers should | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
own up on that point because I think his current position lacks some | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
degree of credibility. I think the nature of this debate is already | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
having a big impact on politics. Earlier this week, while people were | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
fixed on this place for the contest between the Honourable member for | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
Uxbridge and the Prime Minister on the European debate, there was the | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
settlement of the Scottish financial has ocean. Tribute should be paid to | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
the First Minister of Scotland and the Deputy First Minister and all | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
sides at the negotiating table in bringing about that settlement. When | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
I wondered about the change in position, the rapid change in | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
position that was taking place, only a couple of weeks ago more the | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
Treasury position was to arrange a ?7 billion deduction from Scottish | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
finances which last week became 3.5 billion, 2 billion last week and | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
ended up at zero by Tuesday afternoon. I am perfectly prepared | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
to suggest that one reason why that change of heart may well have come | :52:05. | :52:11. | |
about is that if it hadn't come about, the Foreign Secretary says | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
there was no change, believe me, the dogs in the street in Scotland no | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
there was a substantial change over the last few weeks. One reason why | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
that change may have come about, I suspect, is that if the Prime | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
Minister were in a position of not being able to deliver his | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
pre-referendum promises more powers to Scotland, he would find it | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
difficult apse to sustain the argument that 27 other European | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
leaders might be delivering the pre-referendum vows to him. I think | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
we are already seeing the aspects of this the bait having a very | :52:53. | :52:59. | |
substantial influence in politics. I ask the Foreign Secretary earlier on | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
about the circumstances that would arise if the vote went for out and | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
when article 50 would be invoked. I have come across, reading, the paper | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
in preparation on exactly that issue. It suggests that the likely | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
formulation would be that there would have to be a vote in this | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
chamber before the government invoked the as ocean. The government | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
could say it is an executive decision and go ahead anyway. It | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
then goes on to argue the following, which is of great important so I am | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
going to quote it. Just to clarify because I answered this point | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
earlier, I have taken advice since that, it is the government position | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
that if the electorate gives a clear decision in this referendum to | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
leave, the government will proceed to serve and Article 50 notice, | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
there would be no need for a further process in this case. His Cessna, no | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
debate, no decision in the house. Fine. -- he says now. That can be | :54:05. | :54:14. | |
defended by saying that it would be a brave person to take the decision | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
that the electorate would vote in a referendum but then go on to debate | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
it. But, the Foreign Secretary should pay some attention to what is | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
in the paper that has the position of what might be happening in the | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
devolved legislatures. "It Is not just about the Carpenters of the | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
legislatures by EU law, -- the competencies. But the effect on the | :54:39. | :54:45. | |
executive to implement that law. The removal of these features, there is | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
another method it would prime face each deal with the devolution | :54:51. | :54:58. | |
legislatures under the seal convention. " I would be interested | :54:59. | :55:07. | |
to know, what is the case that his party is going to make in Scotland | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
in favour of our membership of the EU, which does he think is the most | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
powerful argument he will use in his campaign? If I may say, these are | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
the ones I made earlier, it started with a speech suggesting that the | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
debate should be focused on the importance of Europe in terms of | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
social policy and the environment come solidarity in terms of refugees | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
and the achievements of Europe and keeping peace in Europe and ensuring | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
prosperity and workers rights. These are the arguments we are going to | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
focus on. It is important to pursue the end of this point, the Right | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
Honourable gentleman, the Foreign Secretary, has agreed that no vote | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
in this parliament would be necessary for the government to | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
invoke article 50. Because what Parliament would gain from saying a | :55:56. | :56:02. | |
referendum across the UK. There is the possibility that Scotland has | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
just voted in favour while the UK has voted against, what | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
self-respecting Scottish Parliament, having a vote as is indicated in the | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
sewer convention procedure would not vote in the way the Scottish people | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
had voted in such a referendum by exactly the same argument. -- the | :56:24. | :56:31. | |
I think the case the Right Honourable gentleman is making for | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
proper consultation and constitutional process is just as | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
powerful. Wouldn't he agree with me that actually, whatever the outcome | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
of the referendum, the government remains answerable to Parliament. | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
They should not proceed to any self harming action which a president is | :56:52. | :56:59. | |
moved to article 50 might actually be unless they have consulted | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
Parliament and gained Parliament's and for the next steps, which in my | :57:03. | :57:10. | |
view might require some discussion with our European partners and | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
consultation with other parts of the United Kingdom. I was pointing out | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
that if the government's position would not be necessary because of | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
the referendum vote, where does that leave the Scottish Parliament if | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
under the conventions I have quoted from in the lively document, it is | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
to have a vote, if there has been a positive, they remain vote for | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
Europe in executive same argument as the Foreign Secretary has now had to | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
consult people to announce the Democratic short-circuiting of | :57:42. | :57:43. | |
parliamentary convention. I think the Foreign Secretary should | :57:44. | :57:55. | |
think through the invitations of the argument, someone else has thought | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
it through. This I think is another first having agreed with the right | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
honourable gentleman for the first time in 30 years more or less. I | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
find myself agreeing with the former Prime Minister Tony Blair, if for | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
just about the first time certainly in the last ten to 15 years. Making | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
a comment in a French radio interview, let us hope it is a good | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
translation "In my opinion if United Kingdom votes to leave Europe, | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
Scotland will vote to leave the United Kingdom". As I say, for once | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
I think the former Prime Minister has put his finger on the heart of | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
it. The First Minister of Scotland has eluded to these possibilities as | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
well, she is well justified in doing so. She is well justified because | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
during the referendum campaign of 2014, one of the arguments of the no | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
side is that we would jeopardise our position in the European Union if | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
Scotland voted yes. That sounds ironic now given the process we are | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
going through but nonetheless, that was one of the key are gimmicks. | :59:01. | :59:09. | |
She's justified secondly because during the general election she | :59:10. | :59:12. | |
described exactly the circumstance is as being a change of material | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
circumstance is that would justify another referendum, and then | :59:17. | :59:24. | |
received a mandate of 56 out of the 59 seats in the House of Commons. | :59:25. | :59:30. | |
And when the honourable member from the Labour pension says that we will | :59:31. | :59:36. | |
vote as the United Kingdom, and dismiss it, that was exactly the | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
attitude that resulted in the Labour Party not only not representing the | :59:42. | :59:50. | |
United Kingdom, but only having one member of Parliament. I think that | :59:51. | :59:53. | |
your documents and I have made about Scotland can also be applied into | :59:54. | :00:00. | |
Wales. In Welsh opinion polls, though it is a much less clear-cut | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
position as far as the European issue is concerned. This library | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
also points out that the people of Wales in 2011 voted in a referendum | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
massively, massively, for a referendum settlement that included | :00:17. | :00:18. | |
the instruction that members of the Welsh executive were to be complied | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
with EU law. They already have a pre-existing referendum mandate, | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
which is part of the European cause. What I would say to the government | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
in this campaign in summary is two things. Firstly, to recognise, that | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
in order to build an Hindu majority, which is the objective, they will | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
have two be a great deal more reflection and emphasis on the | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
arguments which are likely to inspire support from a range of | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
political opinion, has opposed to arguments, that will fend off the | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
remaining Eurosceptics who have decided to vote no. Secondly, in | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
particular, to have a great deal more sensitivity to that range of | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
arguments than has been displayed thus far. In the space of the last | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
week since the referendum was announced, the Prime Minister has | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
disregarded the Leader of the Opposition, he has disregarded the | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
views of the first ministers of Wales and Scotland in terms of the | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
timing of the referendum. That is not an auspicious start in having | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
the sort of broad campaign which can result in victory. I am grateful, I | :01:28. | :01:36. | |
find it interesting, fascinating almost that he wants to have a veto | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
for Scotland over Brexit, yet he is very happy for Scotland to be part | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
of the European Union where we have qualified majority voting and we can | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
be voted against our interests time and time again, which really does | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
matter. How can he married the two? I can do it in a number of ways but | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
perhaps one way is to put it forward like this. In terms of an | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
independent country in Europe outside of the euro area, they | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
control 99% of their taxation base, everything except the VAT | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
contribution. In terms Scotland in the United Kingdom, even after the | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
settlement of this week, that figure will be 25%. I regard 25% control of | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
your taxation base is not independent in any meaningful sense, | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
I regard 99% as meaningful independence, and therefore worth | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
the sacrifice in sovereignty that is inevitably made in order to achieve | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
the objective, like environmental protection, like having solidarity | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
when you have a continental crisis. That in essence is the difference | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
between a country being independent in the European Union and being a | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
devolved entity within this United Kingdom. So I hope that the | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
arguments that we have put forward in this campaign will reflect the | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
complexities of the coalition, which is going to be required. Which has | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
two extend far beyond the ranks of the Conservative Party if we are to | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
have a resounding in majority, come June and the referendum. Sir Bill | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
Cash. Thank you very much Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a great | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
pleasure to follow the member for Gordon and the right honourable | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
friend, member for Sussex. I say that because both of them have | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
sought and I think achieved a level of debate which this subject | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
certainly deserves. And it is also true if I may say so to my right | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
honourable friend, and I'm sure he would agree with me, that his | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
grandfather for whom he knows I have the most part admiration, as one who | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
was actually born on the 10th of May 1940, when he assumed the Prime | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
Minister ship of this country, and indeed, the same day on which Hitler | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
invaded Holland and France. But I do think he will agree with me that | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
actually many of the pronouncements of Swainston Churchill on the issue | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
of Europe, did change as time progressed. I would say in | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
particular, he said at one point much later than 1948" we should be | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
associated but not absorbed". I think that the movements that were | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
taking place, that were apparent to surround to need on hand to others, | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
in the late 1940s and 1950s, did have quite a significant impact on | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
the thinking of our great former Prime Minister, Sir Winston himself. | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
I think that in saying we should be associated but not absorbed comedy | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
understood that there were movements afoot that were not in the interests | :04:57. | :05:04. | |
of the United Kingdom. He did also say, that we should tell the truth | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
to the British people. He went on to make clear that what he meant by | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
that was that the British people will follow you if you tell them | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
that truth. Sadly, I believe, is that what has been happening over | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
the recent months and the whole of this debate, is that as I indicated | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
in my response to the Prime Minister's statement in the third of | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
debris, when I mentioned that in my view, he was bypassing not only his | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
promises but his principles, and I said as well, that I thought, that | :05:43. | :05:52. | |
the problem of this expression "Legally binding and irreversible" | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
and a stitch up as I put it with respect to the political decision | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
that I anticipated would be taken in a few days' time which it was of | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
course on the 10th of debris, about it being legally binding and | :06:06. | :06:07. | |
irreversible, would lead on the 23rd clash at 23rd of June, a referendum, | :06:08. | :06:19. | |
something that the voters would not be able to rely upon. It is strong | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
words Madam Deputy Speaker to say that I believe that the voter is | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
already being cheated in this respect. I say that for this reason, | :06:28. | :06:36. | |
and with prudence and care. Because, right at the heart of this as I also | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
said on the third of debris, it is all about voter trust. -- 3rd of | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
February. The truth is that of all of the arguments that have developed | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
over these words are legally binding and irreversible, I noticed that my | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary Eric Axley avoided the | :06:57. | :07:04. | |
word he reversal. -- very carefully avoided the word irreversible. | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
Indeed, they specifically referred to legally binding, and specifically | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
did not refer to the word irreversible. There is a good reason | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
for that, as we have said, in the European scrutiny committee on a | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
number of occasions, in our reports recently, and in our cross | :07:25. | :07:26. | |
examination of the Foreign Secretary the other day. This is about a vote | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
of trust. The fact is that if we take but one example, which is the | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
expression of the removal of the words ever closer union in respect | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
to the United Kingdom, I had to point out to the Foreign Secretary | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
that this is not in the preamble. It is article one of the Treaty of a | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
functioning of the European Union and therefore it requires treaty | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
change. We are not being given treaty change and we are having to | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
rely on an international agreement. I am not going to say that it | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
doesn't have a certain legal character but what I am saying is | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
that it does not bind the European Court of Justice. Nor does it | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
guarantee that other member states may veto any treaty change that may | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
follow later. Nor does it guarantee in any way what the European Court | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
of Justice may say about it. Nor does it preclude other states who | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
are going to be holding referendums no doubt on this subject, and I | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
mentioned Ireland was one in particular, which couldn't possibly, | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
the outcome of which could not possibly be predicted as I heard | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
from another member of Parliament on the today programme yesterday. Would | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
he agree with me that like many Conservative members of Parliament, | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
we wish the Prime Minister well and obviously we are very disappointed | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
at The Fins substance of the agreement that he came back with one | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
week or so ago -- the thin substance. Isn't the offence | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
compounded by the fact that we were led to believe in the Bloomberg | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
speech in 2013 that we were looking at a fundamental renegotiation of | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
the relationship and that clearly sadly has not happened. I had to say | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
that I totally agree with my honourable friend and in fact I made | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
that very point on the 3rd of February in response to the Prime | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
Minister 's statement. He also said that he thought that, our democracy | :09:37. | :09:46. | |
in our Westminster Parliament, was the root of our freedom of choice. | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
That was the essence of what he was saying. I have to say that I do also | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
fear, within the framework of this agreement, and also the development | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
by successive governments in successive treaties, that what was | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
happened, what was originally understood, I voted yes in 1975. Why | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
I pursue the government and harried them over the Maastricht rebellion, | :10:14. | :10:22. | |
is that in fact, the situation changed dramatically, the situation | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
changed dramatically, when the Maastricht Treaty was brought into | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
being. I know that some of his friends are less surprised now. What | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
measure of responsibility does the right honourable gentleman take for | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
all that has happened since he voted yes in 1975? Very little because as | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
I said, these were decisions that were taken in 1972, on the basis of | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
a white paper that said that we would always retain the veto. That | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
is the difference. And in fact that has been whittled away by successive | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
governments, and I have opposed them from the moment that I saw the | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
Maastricht Treaty, to the present day has the right honourable | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
gentleman knows only too well and so do many others. But I do want to go | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
back to this problem about voter trust. Because actually, the current | :11:20. | :11:27. | |
Euro barometer poll suggests a -60 fact of trust throughout the whole | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
of Europe. And only 43% turnout in a European Parliamentary election. | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
There is no connection, between the citizen and the European Union. This | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
is not about Europe. We on this side of the house, love Europe, or many | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
people do, I would simply say this. With two Spanish grand sons and a | :11:53. | :11:54. | |
Spanish granddaughter. Another of my sons married to an | :11:55. | :12:07. | |
Italian. What I would simply say is that you don't have to be | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
anti-European to be pro-democracy. That is a very powerful and | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
important thing for us all to bear in mind. But I am deeply worried | :12:18. | :12:25. | |
about this refusal to engage with the word irreversible for the reason | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
I have given. It is because it cannot be guaranteed. It is like | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
buying a shiny second-hand car saying that you have a guarantee, | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
that is what we are being offered. On the 23rd of June, unless the | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
voter knows they are going to get what the Foreign Secretary described | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
as the whole package, and can be guaranteed that it can be given and | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
that it will come into effect, they have no reason to have any | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
confidence in answering the question to remain or to leave. I think that | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
is a severe indictment and that is why I believe the government is | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
effectively cheating the voter on that day and on that basis. There is | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
also another factor, that is the issue about the democracy of this | :13:19. | :13:29. | |
country. We agreed in our vote in 1972 and in subsequent accession | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
treaties and other treaties that were added to the European | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
communities act. We agreed that we would voluntarily accept this as a | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
diminution of our sovereignty in the sense it was being put through the | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
parliamentary system. My right honourable friend referred to an | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
illusion of sovereignty the other day, I do not wish to elaborate on | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
that but to say it is not an illusion. Sovereignty is about the | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
right of the people to choose in general elections, the kind of laws | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
they wish to be governed under. In this House of Commons, it is no | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
illusion, it is a fact as well as being a question of jurisprudence, | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
that is why it is so important, people fought and died, as my own | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
father died in the last war, fighting for the right of the | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
British people to resist to Rooney. I would simply say that it is a | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
great mistake to talk about sovereignty in terms of an illusion. | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
-- tyranny. There is also a question of how much influence we have in the | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
European Union. I could give further descriptions of the voting system | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
but much of it is decided in smoke-filled rooms and not why | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
voting itself. And yet, we find ourselves increasingly losing... | :15:05. | :15:13. | |
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me begin by saying that while I have | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
enjoyed all of the speeches so far in today's debate, I might pay | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
particular tribute to the member for Mid Sussex for a most moving speech | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
in which I think the whole house found a pleasure hearing. The first | :15:33. | :15:40. | |
week of this referendum campaign has been dominated by the positioning of | :15:41. | :15:49. | |
members of the Cabinet and more broadly members of the Conservative | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
Party. It is of course of interest, we are in politics, we know it is of | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
interest, when a political party is divided. But the first point I want | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
to make today is however interesting that may be, this referendum and the | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
decision facing the country is far more important than the position of | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
any individual politician, the share price of any individual politician, | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
the career ambitions of any politician or the deep divisions | :16:26. | :16:37. | |
within any single political party. It is about the future of the | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
country, the question is whether we remain in the European Union or | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
leave the European Union. Beneath that question, layer upon layer of | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
fundamental fissures, it is to a few of those I would like to address my | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
remarks. The first is the tone in which this referendum campaign is | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
being conducted. I am clearly in favour of the UK remaining in the | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
European Union but I also want to understand the impulse some of those | :17:10. | :17:17. | |
who want to take us out. I do not speak for the leading advocates of | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
Euro scepticism but my constituents and many of those constituents of | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
other members who have concerns about this. I think that it is | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
important for those of us who want the UK to remain in, to acknowledge | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
the sense of loss at the changes robbed by globalisation that have | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
made many people feel that they do not have a stake in the country's | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
story. It is important to acknowledge that sense of lost with | :17:48. | :17:57. | |
respect. Another issue is of course, our economic and trading position. I | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
will not go through the statistics but we are part of this single | :18:02. | :18:10. | |
market of 500 million people. It is the main destination for our | :18:11. | :18:11. | |
exports. A big the main destination for our | :18:12. | :18:49. | |
European Union. One product which has both imports and exports inside | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
the one product. This is how modern manufacturing works. It is a supply | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
chain and a product brought together across different borders in the | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
European Union with no tariffs according to a single set of rules. | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
I am truly grateful to him for giving way. I am pleased he has | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
brought up the issue of trade, does he not agree that given the fact the | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
economic powerhouse of Iceland has managed to negotiate a free trade | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
deal with the world's second-largest economy, does he not share my | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
confidence in Great Britain's ability to be able to negotiate | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
free-trade deals with growing economies around the world? I have | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
looked at some of the trade agreements between individual | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
countries and China and director meant he does as well. These trade | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
agreements are often complete and free access for the Chinese end of | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
the operation with severely limited access for the smaller country. The | :19:57. | :20:05. | |
view I would disagree with is that we should have a choice with trading | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
with the rest of the world and trading with the EU, we should do | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
both. With the time limit, I will make some progress if you would not | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
mind. The underlying issue, to which my right honourable friend the | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
Shadow Foreign Secretary refers is the employment rights. This is not | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
just a trading relationship, not just a market, it is a social Europe | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
aspect to it. 6 million workers in the UK have gained new or enhanced | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
rights to paid holidays. Around 400,000 part-time workers, most of | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
them women, many of them low-paid, have gained improved pay and | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
conditions when equal treatment rights were introduced. I repeat the | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
point I made in my question to my right honourable friend, when people | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
attack red tape and bureaucracy from the EU, it is very often these | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
things that they mean. The right to decency at work. As my right | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
honourable friend said, we write to enjoy time with your newborn baby, | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
this is not needless bureaucracy. This is part of a decent and | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
civilised economy. That too is on the ballot paper when this issue is | :21:23. | :21:33. | |
debated. Then I come to the question raised eloquently by the member for | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
Mid Sussex of security. I will not repeat in a less eloquent manner the | :21:40. | :21:41. | |
argument he General staff, "Unlike the Cold War | :21:42. | :24:10. | |
when things were more binary, in a modern, interconnected world, it is | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
not just the defence capability that will be fundamental to our security, | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
it is going to be a number of other issues as well." The truth is that | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
in today's world, security is a combination of hard power and soft | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
power. When we speak of security in the European Union, we are not | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
talking about a European army but the values that it means to be a | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
member. If you doubt they are important, just talk to the members | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
who live close to Russia's borders. They will tell you that being part | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
of the EU is important to their security. The honourable member | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
asked me about the question of Scotland. The truth is, as we have | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
heard already in the debate, the comments in recent days. The | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
integrity of the United Kingdom is also on the ballot paper when we | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
cast our vote. That is quite clear. It seems to me a great pity that | :25:10. | :25:17. | |
those who would profess to be the most committed to the United Kingdom | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
are cavalier about the future unity of the country which is at stake | :25:23. | :25:33. | |
through this referendum. I believe that whatever the words on the | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
ballot paper, there are fundamental issues for us underlying them. | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
Perhaps the most important of all is what kind of country we are going to | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
be. It would be the easiest thing in the world to look at some of the | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
issues we see on our television screens, the flow of refugees, the | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
economic problems that have afflicted Europe in recent years. | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
And to conclude that the best thing we should do is to walk away. To | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
pull up the drawbridge and say it is all too difficult. I do not believe | :26:10. | :26:18. | |
that an answer, while that may be, it is not leadership. In the end, | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
this is a question of leadership. That is why I believe the most | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
important response to those issues is to resolve to play a full part | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
with our partners and allies in facing up to them. That is why I | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
want to see us remain and continue having the UK is an open, outward | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
looking, confident player in the wider world. It is a pleasure to | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
follow the honourable member from Wolverhampton South East and a very | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
thoughtful contribution. I will just say that in response to Britain | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
walking away, clearly the United Kingdom will never do that. It will | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
never walk away from Europe, simply by geography but also reaching out | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
to the rest of the world. When we talk about migration, we are not | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
going to walk away from our responsibilities there. Again, as a | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
member of the International Development Select Committee, I am | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
delighted we are spending 1.7% of our GDP on international | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
development, going into Syria and helping with the refugee crisis. I | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
feel sorry for the British electorate in many ways, I am glad | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
they are going to get a vote because I think it is important from a | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
democratic point of view because it is something future. But they will | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
have to pick out what is and what is not true in the next four mums | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
because they will hear a lot of propaganda on both sides. | :27:48. | :27:58. | |
And they have got to work out how much truth there is that and I | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
genuinely believe it. Through to those on the other side who want the | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
United Kingdom to remain in the European Union and are using all | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
sorts of arguments, to promote that cause, including my goodness me, it | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
is going to be Armageddon and next day. If not worse. That is not true | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
either. As the Prime Minister said Monday, we are a great country, if | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
we remain in the European Union or leave, we are still going to remain | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
a great country. I am delighted that the Prime Minister has given the | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
British people an opportunity to vote. I thought it would be a great | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
denial of democracy, I have been an MP for 23 years and when I was | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
sitting listening to Tony Blair at the dispatch box telling us that the | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
Lisbon Treaty had now changed it was it'll magically different document, | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
so the British people although they were promised a referendum on the | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
treaty they were now not going to get it. Can I just say that the only | :29:00. | :29:09. | |
party that has ever given Britain the choice of a referendum, is the | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
Labour Party. Secondly, the promise was on the EU constitution, which | :29:16. | :29:24. | |
was not the Lisbon Treaty, it is an entirely different issue. The funny | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
thing is that I looked at both documents and it was about 90% the | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
same, did they cut and pasted? I sat on the Council of Europe, we were | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
getting officials from the European Commission coming to us and telling | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
pass, don't worry, this is virtually the same document. They had one | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
message for the people of the United Kingdom and a completely different | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
message for the European Union. There was a think tank, I think open | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
Europe that made available a consolidated version, side-by-side | :30:02. | :30:03. | |
and there were no substantive differences. The only difference, is | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
that they did not need to ask people, and I will say unashamedly | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
that is the trigger that brought me here. If Tony Blair thought that he | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
was doing this project any favours by denying the referendum, I think | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
he is greatly mistaken because I think the prospect was, he withdrew | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
the referendum promise, is that the British people don't know. And | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
therefore, there may have been, just like Ireland has referenda regularly | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
on treaties and then has a second one, but normally after another | :30:39. | :30:40. | |
discussion with the European Union and they change parts of it to make | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
it more favourable to Ireland. I suspect, that had we voted no to | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
Lisbon, and then him Tony Blair's favourite phrase, the third way, | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
there may have been a different project for the United Kingdom in a | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
more associated relationship with the European Union, one more based | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
on trade rather than on the political entity which of course we | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
know, a number of European leaders want. I actually think that Tony | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
Blair did this project absolutely no favours whatsoever. I would also | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
like to say, that I am voting leave because I love my country, and I | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
actually respect those who remain loving their country as well. Both | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
sides are believe are doing it for the right reasons, for the | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
betterment of their country. My grandfather fought in World War one | :31:34. | :31:42. | |
and my father in World War II, to give people a better world. | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
Devolution is a keystone, bringing power closer to the people. I | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
believe that the leading elites of Europe, might as well be from | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
another planet. Most normal people in this country and indeed | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
throughout the rest of Europe, cannot even name a single member of | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
the commission. We have got scores of these faceless governing elites, | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
many of them on salary is way above the Prime Minister. -- salaries. | :32:10. | :32:17. | |
That reminds me of this great red card, that says that we can block | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
legislation as long as we join together with 14 other countries to | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
block it. That was an idea that was ridiculed by William Hague in this | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
chamber when it was first suggested. He said even if the legislation that | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
we were trying to block was the murder of the first-born, we were | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
unlikely to get 14 other countries in the timescale that was given us, | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
an opportunity to block the legislation. Do you remember how to | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
ensure we are in the rest of Europe, when we tried to stop junk from | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
becoming president, we went on a great salesmanship deal, and how | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
many countries did we get to support us? One. It was one out of 27, | :33:03. | :33:12. | |
Hungary. I'm glad he has raised the issue of the governments failed | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
attempt to stop Mr Junker, the answer is not because the European | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
Union is an evil organisation but because the government was | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
completely useless at finding allies for his efforts. In the labour time | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
we made a similar effort and we were successful in stopping the candidate | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
that we wanted to stop. The answer is to do the job better. I think the | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
answer is for us to have a veto on things that we do not like, that is | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
what sovereignty is all about. I fight a general election, and I want | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
to be able to deliver what is in my manifesto. When I raised it earlier | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
on about that issue with child benefit going to youngsters that | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
have never set foot, I went because there is no injury time now. We | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
still give child benefit to youngsters who have never set foot | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
in the United Kingdom. One of our manifesto pledges was to stop that. | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
Now we are told that we cannot do that. That is the very nub of the | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
problem, we are cutting promises in a manifesto that we cannot deliver | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
because the European Union will not let us. It is all about sovereignty, | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
we talk about the illusion of sovereignty, well if anyone wants to | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
see the illusion of sovereignty, come to the Palace of Westminster. | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
Because if we can't deliver the promises, if we can't deliver the | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
promises that we put in our own manifesto because the governing | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
elites somewhere else will not let us, then this is the illusion of | :34:45. | :34:52. | |
sovereignty here in Westminster. It is exactly the same with reducing | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
VAT, or abolition of the VAT on sanitary towels. It should be | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
something that we decide in Westminster, it should have | :35:02. | :35:03. | |
absolutely nothing to do with the European Union whatsoever. I | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
believe, that if my constituents vote for me and the government and | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
the dead like what we do after five years they can get rid of us and | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
they can change the rules. But that does not happen at the moment. That | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
is one of the reasons why I wish to leave. We talk about this break, his | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
seven-year break. Would anybody buy a car where you have to get | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
permission from somebody else to use the break and after seven years the | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
break goes? We would have two be bonkers to buy a car that was like | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
that. And traders mentioned time and time again, the House of Commons | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
paper that was mentioned, please read it and show that the deficit | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
with goods and services, is huge. And with Germany it is over 27 | :35:54. | :36:01. | |
billion alone. I would imagine that Mercedes would be the first to knock | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
on the door of Angela Merkel if it decides to leave and say don't you | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
dare. With the trade agreements that the United Kingdom on to have with | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
the European Union. And also we have the World Trade Organisation that we | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
are signatories to, that will also give us protection as well. I do not | :36:21. | :36:28. | |
believe, that the countries, the other countries are vindictive and | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
spiteful and would want to cut their noses off to spite their faces and | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
indeed if they were like that, is this the sort of people that we want | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
to associate ourselves with? I simply don't believe it. Securities | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
mentioned time and time again, this does worry me. Over 1 million people | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
have come into the European Union, over the last 12 months. And in | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
Germany alone, it is predicted that by 2020, three .6 million will come | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
in, and the chief of Europol has estimated that even currently, there | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
are 5000 jihadists that have managed to come in, with these migrants. At | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
one stage is Germany going to give passports to the people who have | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
arrived in Germany and where are they gain to go? Many of them are | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
going to come to the United Kingdom, they will have German passports and | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
there will be very little that we can do to stop them and that does | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
worry me. I don't think the people of Paris last year sadly felt any | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
safety because they were in the European Union. Whether it was | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
Charlie Hebdo all the nightclub, I mean, that is not security. I want | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
to see us securing our end borders that will allow us to have the power | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
to control who comes into the United Kingdom or not. As the razor wire | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
goes up all over Europe, let us take this one in a lifetime chance to | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
take back control, put the security of our people first, put power back | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
into the hands of the British people. It is the British people | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
that I would like to end with. We have not had a referendum on this | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
issue since 1975, we were told by the Foreign Secretary that they | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
would be no second referendum and I believe him. This would be the own | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
new opportunity that we will get in my lifetime to take control back, to | :38:22. | :38:29. | |
trade with them, to be part of them. But to have our own sovereignty to | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
return to this country, I hope the people of Britain will take that | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
chance on Freedom day. Thank you very much indeed Madam Deputy | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
Speaker, pleasure to follow the honourable gentleman. Though little | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
that I agree with him but I appreciate the way he projected it. | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
He will know and some people will know, we'll remember the late Eric | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
Forth. When he was the MP for Bromley. Very little did I agree | :38:55. | :39:06. | |
with him either politically but I do remember him saying in this chamber | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
quite clearly wants, when the two front benches agree with each other, | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
then start counting the spoons. I think that is a reasonable idea. | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
When you get not just the two front benches but the leader of the | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
third-largest party agreeing as well, then I think we need to be | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
very careful in our assessment of what is going on. They might be | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
right, but of course, they might not. And once there is a consensus | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
across these things, it becomes almost, almost impossible to deviate | :39:41. | :39:48. | |
from it. I don't normally take part in European affairs debates because | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
they have a tendency, to become almost theological in their content. | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
And in the way that they are conducted. But I did want to make a | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
few observations Madam Deputy Speaker on this particular subject. | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
I was one of a small minority on this side of the house, that was | :40:08. | :40:16. | |
always in favour of a referendum. And, I joined indeed a group called | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
labour for a referendum before the last election. I was a minority | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
among the Labour members for a referendum, in so far I was not | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
doing it from a fixated position of wanting to get out from the European | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
Union. I came to the conclusion some years ago, that I think the | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
honourable members from the other side mentioned. That things have | :40:39. | :40:40. | |
changed so much in the intervening 40 years, that I think it is time | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
that the British people were consulted again, on this issue and | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
it is the only way to bring any kind of lasting settlement to it. Others | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
in my party I think mistakenly resisted the idea. Even though, the | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
Prime Minister in 2013 brought forward a bill, to authorise | :41:03. | :41:11. | |
referendum. But then the similarity between that in 2013 and what Harold | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
Wilson did in 1975 was almost identical. In 1975 it was a device | :41:19. | :41:26. | |
to prevent the Labour party to split asunder and in 2013 it was exactly | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
the same thing, but to stop the Conservative Party spitting. People | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
on my side resisted it, they said quite rightly that a referendum in | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
the intervening period would only create uncertainty. And uncertainty | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
is bad for business and one only needs to look at performance of the | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
pound on each national exchange markets this week, although I think | :41:49. | :41:56. | |
foreign-exchange traders are somewhat because the referendum has | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
been around for four years and if it was going to take place it was clear | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
he going to take place, once the current government won the last | :42:05. | :42:05. | |
election. I am sure the international finance | :42:06. | :42:21. | |
committee will be heartened by his solicitude on the international | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
markets but on a serious point, does he not agree with me that there is a | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
gap in the market for those decent, patriotically thoughtful Labour | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
voters who are Eurosceptic and leave advantage lies outside the European | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
Union but are being let down by their own front bench who are | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
effectively ignoring those views? If I have time, I will come to that in | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
amount, I broadly agree with the point he is making. It has validity | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
right across this argument. As the previous speaker said, there are | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
those who say their love their country but want to opt out, then | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
others who love their country and want to stay in. The other reason I | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
think there was a failure of leadership is not so much on the | :43:14. | :43:21. | |
business considerations but those who were saying that the British | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
public may come to the wrong conclusion. Therefore the only way | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
to vent that and protect against it was to not allow them the choice in | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
the first place and I think that was a mistake. I am not saying it is the | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
only reason the Labour Party did not win the general election last year | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
but for those who were standing against the referendum, it would not | :43:44. | :43:52. | |
have gone in our favour. The member for Wolverhampton South East, and | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
the right honourable member for Aylesbury, on the original Whalton | :43:57. | :44:07. | |
bill, everybody knows it was not the member for Stockton's will, but the | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
true number one in the private members ballot. An entertaining and | :44:12. | :44:19. | |
eliminating experience it was. The honourable member. To an South, I | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
think it was, standing up in the heart of proceedings -- Stockton | :44:23. | :44:34. | |
South. Sitting down, for the next five weeks and not saying a word | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
until the bill continued its proceedings and he indulged in the | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
normal civilities we do at the end of committee meetings. He was by far | :44:45. | :44:52. | |
the most active person on the whole committee, although the honourable | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
member for war lantern Southeast was more convincing. The whole thing was | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
a pantomime -- Wolverhampton South East. When I drew the parallel | :45:04. | :45:14. | |
before between Wilson, Harold Wilson's manoeuvres in 1975 and the | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
current Prime Minister, they do work to some degree. But Harold Wilson | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
unfortunately kept the Labour Party together for less than a decade and | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
then it split over this very issue. It is an important aspect, in 1975, | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
I did vote no. People over there say they voted yes, people over here | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
voting no, and I think it was for the same reasons. I am less inclined | :45:43. | :45:51. | |
to vote no this time but I have to say, I have many concerns with how | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
the new operates. I agree strangely enough with the honourable member | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
for Uxbridge and sell Bryce Lipp, I feel Britain can have a future | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
outside the European Union but I just don't think it is the best | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
future. I do not think it is optimal for the British people and I clearly | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
disagree with the honourable member, I will conclude this point and then | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
give way, where I disagree that a great disagree with the honourable | :46:21. | :46:28. | |
member for Oxbridge, it is arisen bull and laughable idea so you can | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
vote no today and bowl yes tomorrow, it is untenable. I add my the | :46:34. | :46:42. | |
honourable member, his attempt to try and breathe life into this idea | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
that there could be a second vote by saying the government not should not | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
immediately react to a vote, there will not be a second vote and any | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
circumstances and we should have the courage to face up to it. The | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
honourable member for Oxbridge also wrote recently that the British | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
people are always right and I agree with him on that. Does he agree with | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
me and the Mayor of London that in or out, the British people will be | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
right and what are the thoughts we might hold today, we need to respect | :47:18. | :47:25. | |
that. I would not use such an absolutist view, the British people | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
may or may not be right, that is for a higher judgment. But what I would | :47:30. | :47:38. | |
say as a Democrat, whatever they vote for, it is incumbent on the | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
government and this Parliament to abide by it, that is what I would | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
say. If in later years we discover it was a great mistake, sailor V. -- | :47:48. | :47:57. | |
that's life. The honourable member for Uxbridge, I feel his cuddly | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
should have more to do with the Tory leadership than the best interests | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
of the country or the best interests for Europe. -- I feel his comments | :48:07. | :48:15. | |
is more about the leadership rather than the country. It will be about | :48:16. | :48:23. | |
the overall impression of what BT you use, what is Britain's place in | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
the family of nations? And the merits of the advocates as well of | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
the arguments. With claim and counterclaim attempting to be clear. | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
We have the strange spectre at the moment of the Secretary of State for | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
Justice in open dispute with the Attorney General over the legal | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
status of the agreement that the prime in as the brought back at the | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
weekend. We saw that rehearsed again this afternoon. I am sure that is an | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
argument that will come put it the thing for the next four mums. I also | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
think the British people will be sick of the whole discussion by the | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
time we get to the 23rd of June. I disagree with the member for Ribble | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
Valley, I do not disagree, but he says it is the first opportunity in | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
his life to vote on this, it is a second chance I have had. I | :49:22. | :49:29. | |
certainly hope I will vote on 23rd of June but it is of critical | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
importance that we have to take it seriously. We do not need it to | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
degenerate into an argument between two groups zealots, or those wanting | :49:43. | :49:51. | |
the status quo in Europe but we should also, this is my final point, | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
others have said this, not just about the impact that the vote will | :49:56. | :50:03. | |
have an relations but the relations within these islands, I mean all of | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
these islands. If there is a negative vote, there will be other | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
parts of the UK and it will have a negative vote, it will have a direct | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
and negative impact, I am certain, on relations with the Republic of | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
Ireland. There will be various convoluted reasons why that would be | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
the case and given the progress we have made in that particular | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
direction in recent years, I feel that is not a risk worth taking. | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
Members have been taking full advantage of interventions and we | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
are running rather late, I will have to reduce it to eight minutes and if | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
members are still generous on interventions, I will have to reduce | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
it further. I am grateful for your advice Madam Deputy Speaker but I am | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
pleased to follow the honourable member. Why would they are little | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
indulgence on all sides of the house on this question. I think it is | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
highly irresponsible to bring in the Northern Ireland peace process as | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
yet another scare of voting leave in this referendum. There was an open | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland when | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
Ireland was not a member of the European Union and we were. And | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
there will be perfectly reasonable arrangements if the United Kingdom | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
votes to leave the European Union with the Republic of Ireland. There | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
are participants in the peace process on both sides of the debate, | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
they are talking perfectly constructively together. They are | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
not going to allow this to become an obstruction to peace in Northern | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
Ireland and nor should we talk it up because I think that is | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
irresponsible. If I may make a point, I am not advocating a second | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
vote. If we vote leave in this referendum, as I expect we will, | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
that will do for me. The point I am making is that article 50 is a | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
provision of the treaties which we will have just rejected. The idea we | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
are bound to follow article 50 provisions after rejecting the whole | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
of the treaties seems rather odd. Given that these treaties were | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
created by 28 member states negotiating together, 28 member | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
states negotiating together to send our membership on the European Union | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
may be a more sensible approach. But it should be decided by Parliament, | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
not the government acting on Royal prerogative. I am actually grateful | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
to him for giving way, you say that once we say no to the EU, we all up | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
and do it all on our terms and then you expect a cordial relationship | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
afterwards while we renegotiate on the terms that are favourable to us | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
afterwards. Is that not just completely and utterly incompatible. | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
Is he seriously suggesting that after the British people have | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
rejected the treaty on the functioning of the European Union | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
and the Treaty on the European Union, that our European partners | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
will say you have rejected this but you are bound by it, that is absurd. | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
It is far more likely that Parliament will want to discuss the | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
matter and the government will produce a proper White paper and we | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
will proceed in a sensible manner, not in a precipitous manner. The | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
only reason they are raising this is as another scare story. We are not | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
having it. The member for Lewisham also talks about uncertainty. Every | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
time we have a general election there is a certain amount of | :53:37. | :53:39. | |
uncertainty. At the next general election, if there is any | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
opportunity for his party to be elected, there will be uncertainty | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
in the markets. You get more uncertainty where there is no | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
democracy. Look at Greece and Spain and the Eurozone, that is | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
uncertainty. That is the uncertainty we want to get out. If we vote | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
leave, we know what will happen, we will get our power is back, control | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
over our borders. We will be able to spend the money we send to the | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
European Union on how we want to spend it rather than subsidising our | :54:12. | :54:20. | |
European nations. It is a lot of money, we will be able to pay for | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
roads in Scotland and the universities and for the investment | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
in science and research that we need and son. The real Western in this | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
debate Madam Deputy Speaker is what happens if we vote remain. What will | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
be the new laws that will be imposed on us after we vote to remain. What | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
judgments is the European Court of Justice going to visit upon us over | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
which we have no control? What about the next treaty? Because we know | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
there will be another fiscal union treaty like the one the Prime | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
Minister vetoed a few years ago. In this agreement, it states that | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
member states whose currency is not the euro shall not impede the | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
intimidation of legal axe greatly linked to the euro area and shall | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
refrain from measures that would jeopardise the attainment of | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
monetary union. It sounds like we are giving up that vetoed, we would | :55:16. | :55:22. | |
not be able to veto a fiscal union treaty. Especially if this is | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
legally binding and irreversible, we will be stuffed. However that Treaty | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
affects our interests, we can even have a referendum on it, if we abide | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
by this agreement, we will not be able to stop it. You talk about | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
uncertainty but I think it is safer to leave. I declare an interest | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
because I do wish us to leave, I would also praise my right | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
honourable friend from Mid Sussex for raising the tone of this debate. | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
Giving us an historical perspective. He underlines that we are at a | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
turning point in the history of our country. And I am struck that the | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
Shadow Foreign Secretary, when he spoke, reminds me that more than a | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
generation has passed since the last referendum, when his father was | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
opposed and my father was in favour and today, he is in favour and I am | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
opposed. I shan't speak for my father in this debate but there has | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
been a reversal of roles. The real question is should the debate be | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
about the past or the future? We do not live in a world how it was after | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
the Second World War which was pre-globalisation. Pre-global trade | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
in the pre-computers and the Internet, pre-space age, many | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
scientific discoveries that we have today. Can I just say that I am very | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
grateful to him by what he has said and I have huge respect for his | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
views but would he not agree that you cannot make a serious, real | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
judgment about the future unless you are quite clear about what went | :56:59. | :57:00. | |
before? The EU institutions are what we | :57:01. | :57:13. | |
should be ready to recognise but while we must never forget the | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
forces of history, the tragic errors of the past that have shaped the | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
present on our continent, we must also have the courage to embrace the | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
change in our society and in the world which will otherwise see a | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
stranded and clinging to outdated ideas and constructs. Our main | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
contention is the EU is exactly this outdated construct. Very briefly. | :57:36. | :57:44. | |
Just ask him if he agrees that we would effectively be in the same | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
tier of Europe dominated by other countries? That is a whole new | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
argument. This referendum represented turning point in itself | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
but also just one point on a trend which is increasingly paralysing our | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
entire continent whose unity is being shattered by the very | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
institution it was intended to unite. Look at the Eurozone, look at | :58:07. | :58:13. | |
the Schengen free travel area. In 1975, my party was enthusiastic for | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
membership of the European immunities, today, I believe Mike | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
party knows the world is utterly different. The strongest arguments | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
remain as they appear to be the ones that we are determined not to | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
participate in the three main purposes of the EU. We will not join | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
the Europa, the free travel area, we will not be in political union, so | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
what is the point of being in this arrangement when we are so opposed | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
its principal purposes? A certain amount of this debate, we have heard | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
before as my honourable friend will agonise on the front bench. -- | :58:54. | :59:02. | |
recognise. We have opted out but the problem is these opt outs don't | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
always work. We were told the social chapter was binding and | :59:08. | :59:13. | |
irreversible. We were told then, Europe is changing, it is all going | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
our way, that is what they said then and I cannot believe I have heard it | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
again, the Foreign Secretary said, national where possible, Europe | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
where necessary. John Major consider this as his principal triumph and it | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
was going to reverse the centralising tendencies of the | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
European court of justice and we were always going to be leading in | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
Europe and the Foreign Secretary said, we will be fighting with | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
like-minded states, I quote, and leading in a reformed EU. We have | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
heard all this before. These are the same deceits. In order to persuade | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
people to support something we do not really want. And we were told | :59:53. | :59:58. | |
over Maastricht, if we veto it, it will be a leap in the dark and what | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
is he saying today? It is a leap in the dark. Of course the giveaway | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
this afternoon is when the Foreign Secretary said, of course there is | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
more to do. If we stay in the European Union, there will be a lot | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
more to do because of course, this agreement is so inconsequential, | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
even if it were to be irreversible and legally binding. What happens if | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
we do vote to remain? That is what the Government needs to answer. What | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
will happen? Last time we were told before a referendum, there would be | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
no loss of essential national sovereignty. Essentials. That is a | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
useful word because of course it did knew did that no loss of sovereignty | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
of its meaning. We have the same weasel words coming out of the | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
offices of the Government today and if the British people are deceived | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
again, and we vote to remain, it will have resolved nothing. We will | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
be back here in five, seven years' time, either demanding another | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
referendum or just deciding to get out, because that is the trend. We | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
will be facing the same problems, we will have the same problems and we | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
will be conflicted with the same problems and the problems by then | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
will be worse. I believe the safer choice is to leave the European | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
union and our security depends upon Nato and our alliances with our own | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
people and working with allies. The idea we can only work with allies if | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
we stay in is yet another deceit. Always a great pleasure to follow | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
the honourable gentleman even though I don't agree with anything that he | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
said apart from perhaps, what he said about the right honourable | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
gentleman Speech at the beginning of the bait which is one of the best | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
ones I have heard in the House. It was a pleasure to listen to. I feel | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
he raised the level of this debate. I want to speak about Patrick | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
Dawson. The British people are deeply patriotically. According -- | :02:04. | :02:12. | |
patriotism. According to a recent survey, the overwhelming majority of | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
British people describe themselves as proud of our country. I think | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
that means they want to see a strong country, a strong economy and more | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
secure country and a country that stands tall in the world. It is my | :02:26. | :02:34. | |
view that there is a very powerful, progressive, patriotically for | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
remaining in the European Union. Because I believe and many others in | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
this House do as well, that we are stronger, prosperous, safer and more | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
influential, as a member of the European Union. The challenges that | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
we face in the 21st-century will not be solved by pulling up the | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
drawbridge and do not stop at the White Cliffs of Dover because we | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
achieve more working together than we do alone. We have proud history | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
as a trading nation and we have a proud history. A proud history in | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
providing leadership in international and European | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
corporation. We, the patriotically progressive pro-Europeans, are the | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
optimists, I believe. We believe that by working with others, we | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
don't lose power but we assert and augment our power in the world. It | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
is my view that the anti-Europeans are the pessimists in this debate. | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
Pessimist about what we as a country can achieve by working with others. | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
Pessimistic in saying that we will always be the losers when we try to | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
work with others. But the dish prime ministers of different political | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
colours have disagreed with that assumption. They have driven | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
international corporation and have driven the establishment of | :04:02. | :04:03. | |
international organisations. The great post-war Labour Government | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
work instrumental in setting up Nato. As the right honourable member | :04:10. | :04:19. | |
for Sussex said in his powerful contribution, his grandfather, | :04:20. | :04:21. | |
Winston Churchill, played an incredibly important role in | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
preserving the peace in post-war period. Edward heath took us into | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
the European economic community and Margaret Thatcher very successfully | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
drove the creation of the European single market. Tony Blair, someone I | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
am very proud of, he won three elections ask, successfully pushed | :04:47. | :04:48. | |
for the enlargement of the European Union. I don't often agree with the | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
current Prime Minister and the leader of the Conservative Party but | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
I thought he made a very powerful case on Monday for our membership of | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
the European Union and I believe that case goes beyond the deal he | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
struck. In his closing remarks, he said, and I think this is right, | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
this is no time to divide the West in the face, and I quote, of Putin's | :05:12. | :05:20. | |
aggression in the East and Islamic extremism in the South. I also agree | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
with him that there is strength in numbers and the choice of this | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
referendum is between an even greater return inside a reformed EU | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
and a great leap into the unknown. Many column inches and much time on | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
the broadcast media in the last few days has been dedicated to the | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
divisions in the Conservative Party over our membership of the European | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
Union and indeed of the intricacies of the deal that was struck and | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
probably the latest English lunch that we might have seen in living | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
memory on Friday in Brussels. But actually, I hope and I think that | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
the bigger argument about why it is in our interest to remain in the | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
European Union will actually in the end determine how people vote at | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
this referendum on the 23rd June. Briefly, I want to say something | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
about three key arguments at the heart of what is patriotic and | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
progressive for our membership. Let's take the economy focused. We | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
trade more with the rest of the European Union than we do with any | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
big economy around the world, more than with US, China or India. As a | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
member of this, we are a gateway to the rest of that market and that is | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
why we are able so successfully to attract inward investment from | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
companies in the European Union and beyond. In my own... On the | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
outskirts of my constituency, Jaguar Land Rover have invested in a huge | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
and award-winning engine factory which capacity will employ 1500 | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
people. Their chief financial officer recently said, and I quote, | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
any split from the European Union would damage trade for the European | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
business and he also cautions against barriers that would arise in | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
the event of the UK leaving the EU. I am extremely grateful for you | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
giving way. She makes a powerful point about the role of trade and | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
the importance of trade. The interconnectedness of trade also. | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
Does she agree that the same interconnectedness applies to the | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
role of higher education, university share funding across Europe. They | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
come together and working together with research grants and research as | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
one European Union, we are using our expertise with others and solving | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
global problems together. I do agree and Wolverhampton and universities | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
in the UK more widely have made this point clear, that they think there | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
is great strength in universities across our country working together | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
with other universities in Europe and research institutes across | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
Europe and they do benefit from the investment and funding we receive by | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
being a member of the European Union. As a Labour MP and alongside | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
my colleagues, we will be making a case for staying in the EU as well. | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
Thanks to the last Labour Government signing up to the social chapter, | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
the Government I am proud of and a decision I was proud that we made | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
when we were indictment, working people across the country have | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
employment rights and protections we would not have otherwise. Such as | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
paid annual leave, writes for agency workers and writes for part-time | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
workers and any of these people affected are women. -- many of | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
these. As the TUC general secretary recently said, these protections | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
will be on the ballot paper come the 23rd June because frankly, I don't | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
think we can trust this Tory Government to maintain those | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
protections if we were to leave. There is also a powerful security | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
case for us to stay in the EU. Prior to the European Arrest Warrant when | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
there was a terrorist in our own country the French suspected bombing | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
the Paris metro, it took us ten years to extradite that suspect. | :09:31. | :09:40. | |
Whereas, in 2005, the terrorist who attempted to bomb the London | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
Underground, he fled to Rome, EU was extradited back to the UK in under | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
five weeks. I think that tells you something about the strength of | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
pooling resources, expertise and sharing information about criminals | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
who do not respect borders. I will just very briefly touch on what I | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
think the weaknesses of the counter argument. It seems to me that those | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
who want to leave have a responsibility to tell us what out | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
looks like and it seems to me, there is a choice between whether on the | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
one hand, we don't have access to the single market with British | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
business being hit, with trade barriers and Harris, and on the | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
other hand, access to the single market while still playing into the | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
EU budget, still accepting free movement of people and still | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
accepting all the rules without having a seat at the table. I think | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
they are major inconsistencies in their argument as I pointed out | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
earlier. This idea that somehow we are powerless within the European | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
Union, but if we were to leave, we could get precisely what we want on | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
our own terms. That is not believable for me. I hope the | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
patriotically aggressive case will win out and I hope the British | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
people vote to remain. I would like to start today by paying tribute to | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
the Prime Minister David Cameron. It is not something I have a society | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
always done from this place. He has delivered on our manifesto | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
commitment for delivering a referendum. He is the first | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
Conservative leader and Prime Minister to do so. In over 40 years. | :11:20. | :11:28. | |
Something even Margaret Thatcher did not deliver and she did not | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
negotiate any reforms pre-any referendum, bar getting the rebate | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
back for the United Kingdom. Soak all credit where it is due. Whilst | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
the Prime Minister may not have obtained the impossible, I think | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
many of us think that he has obtained the improbable in that many | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
of the demands of... Many people thought he would never get what he | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
did in Brussels. On that point, does it not strike | :11:57. | :12:06. | |
you, my colleague, as odd that the Prime Minister already gave in by | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
saying he wanted to stay in the EU before the negotiations started. | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
With all negotiating, negotiating any deal, it is always difficult to | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
set out the defined and true position at the outset of any | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
negotiation. Otherwise you wouldn't negotiate the position you want to | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
find yourself in at the end. I don't agree with that. I think he achieved | :12:28. | :12:38. | |
more than many thought he would. For some even if he had parted the | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
English Channel it wouldn't be enough. I think it is a good reform | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
package. I agree with the member for Wolverhampton about tone and I think | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
the Parliamentary debate and the national debate needs to be done in | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
the right tone, the right language and a measured way and a respectful | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
way. I hope that will be the case. We have made, heard reference to | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
scaremongering today and in the media. But it is Nigel Farage and | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
the recent Oxford University debate that said I quote, the EU referendum | :13:13. | :13:22. | |
will be settled by security. The member for haarage in his | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
penultimate paragraph suggested that skugt was a key -- security was a | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
key issue as well. It is unfortunate that the issue of scaremongering is | :13:35. | :13:43. | |
coming into it. It is legitimate to talk about national security. The | :13:44. | :13:54. | |
member for Barnsley Central I think rightly rose in the daily mirror and | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
wrote, the threat posed to the United Kingdom from the security are | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
like the threats posed to the rest of Europe. He is right. Common | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
threats require a common response. Europe's threats are our threats | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
too. The UK's threats are Europe's threats and in an unsafe world it is | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
not the time to be walking away from our allies. This is a time to stand | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
together. This is not the time for the United Kingdom to be quitting | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
Europe. My view is that the UK is safer in a reformed European union | :14:30. | :14:39. | |
and the Euan piano union is safer -- European Union is safer with | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
ourselves by their side. I would like the mention the Paris attacks. | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
Some say that it is less likely that the United Kingdom will be subject | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
to Paris-style attacks if we leave. I disagree and I think it is a very | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
bold statement to make. Some say that the Syrian refugee crisis has | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
had an impact on terrorist incidents across Europe and therefore possibly | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
later in the UK and that may well be the xas. -- case. But specifically | :15:10. | :15:17. | |
on the nationality of those involved in the Paris attacks, the majority | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
were EU nationals and in fact it was led by a Belgian national. Some have | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
referenced open borders. We don't have open borders in the United | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
Kingdom. That is inaccurate and unfortunately misleading. I will | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
finish this point. Under Schengen we don't have open boarders. That is a | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
fact. I'm grateful, we do have open borders for Belgians. They can come | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
here without so much as a by your leaf. They come and we can't refuse | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
them unless we have specific evidence. If we can make them apply | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
in advance our borders would be clearly be safer. I am grateful, but | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
there are two points. One the reference to the EU of Belgians it | :16:04. | :16:12. | |
is the point that I think the honourable gentleman may not want to | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
make, but I will make, that the majority of terrorist threats in | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
this country as proven by the 7/7 attacks are by British nationals, | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
not EU nationals, although the four in the 7/7 attacks were three of | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
them were British nationals and one was a German national. So it doesn't | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
apply necessarily that coming out of the EU will make us safer. There is | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
a danger in some, not in this House and not the honourable gentleman, of | :16:43. | :16:51. | |
a danger of a Trump Trumpification of the debachlt | :16:52. | :17:10. | |
We would be deluding ourself by thinking by stopping people that | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
terrorism would not be a threat. He is right, rather than increasing the | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
threat, Europe is helping us decrease the threat, whether the | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
border force staff in France and other places, helping with the most | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
recent issues, on collaboration between European police forces and | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
the national crime agency and other U. Constabularies. On the | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
relationship between our intelligence agencies, Europe helps | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
the UK security every day of every week. As I said, it is a bold | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
statement to suggest that leaving the EU would keep the UK safe from | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
terrorism. This morning in the Sun the former Foreign Secretary Lord | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
Owen suggests, remaining in the EU is risking more than leaving. But | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
where is the evidence? There is noefd. A sweeping statement, but no | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
evidence provided. What is more, I think that the, an exit from the EU | :18:13. | :18:20. | |
would embolden the UK's enemies. Who would benefit from the UK quitting? | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
One word - one country, Russia. It is the UK that is ensuring that | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
Europe acted to impose sanctions over the Russia's grab in Ukraine. | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
It is Europe alongside NATO that sends a clear and tough message to | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
ensure that the territorial integrity of the Baltic states are | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
assured. And it is often the U. That is the bridge -- UK that is the | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
bring between Europe and the United States, making sure that the right | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
decisions are made. As I wrote, in the Sunday times, I would quote, to | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
isolate Britain from Europe will have significant national security | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
implications. First, a British exit would end Britain's political and | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
diplomatic counter balance to France and German's strategic often | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
clumsiness. And Britain's exit would leave to weakening of NATO with | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
Germany and France extending defence structures and budgets. In itself | :19:26. | :19:37. | |
not hostile, but over time that defence complementing NATO's defence | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
fence would be in competition to NATO. That is something that some | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
cleanings need to think about. Thirdly, a British exit would see | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
the EU lose Britain's diplomatic advice and counsel. Over the horizon | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
this would present unforeseen and new national security challenges. | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
Britain has a unique place in the world and its voice and reaches have | :20:04. | :20:14. | |
empowrd by fou pillar bgss, the UN, NATO, common wealth and the EU. I | :20:15. | :20:22. | |
would like to reference a letter sent by the former cheech of the | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
defence chaff. Britain's role in the EU strengthens the security we enJie | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
as part of NATO. Adds to our capability and flexibility in | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
defence and allows us to project greater power and internationally. I | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
don't think we should dismiss the voice of former chiefs of the | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
defence staff. And yes, of course, the UK could survive outside the EU | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
and we would still be part of NATO and still have our own armed forces, | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
but the key question is are we safer in the EU or outside? I would argue | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
that we are safer in. That is also the view of our allies who share our | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
intelligence, the five Is nations and also nations that we share | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
intelligence with, Germany and Denmark and so on. But looking | :21:23. | :21:32. | |
across to the United States, all of their institutions want to see a | :21:33. | :21:45. | |
safer Britain in the EU. I will have to reduce the limit of | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
interventions. Thank you, in the weeks and months to come, ahead of | :21:52. | :21:59. | |
referendum, I look forward to hearing from all sides of the House | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
the positive and inspiring is argument for remaining a member of | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
the EU. I would like to pay tribute to the member for mid Sussex who set | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
us off with I think what George Herbert Walker Bush would call the | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
vision thing. It was refreshing to hear. I would like to say like his | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
father, my grandfather died in the last war in the Clyde bank blitz. | :22:28. | :22:34. | |
Neither side in the debate has a monopoly on loss or war legacy. It | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
is refreshing to see a Conservative Prime Minister stand in the chamber | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
and state his commitment to the European union. But if he intends to | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
see a vote to remain delivered this summer, it is time to stop talking | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
to his own party and start talking to the public in these islands. It | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
is time to stop engaging only in the details and to offer a vision, | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
because as the member for Peterborough said, the Prime | :23:09. | :23:17. | |
Minister is secured only Goss Amer thin concessions. It is time to | :23:18. | :23:25. | |
celebrate the European project. Does he agree on that point that the | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
comments earlier from the Foreign Secretary that Objective One status | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
which transformed the infrastructure of the Highlands and Islands could | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
be considered as bunging money to people is the wrong tone to adopt | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
for this debate and recognise the contribution that the EU has made to | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
these islands. I don't think it was the Foreign Secretary at his most | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
sfais Kated it is -- sophisticated it is true. It is time to celebrate | :23:53. | :24:03. | |
the debate. Which shouldn't be about appeasing euro sceptics in the | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
Conservative Party. It is a debate about how we see ourselves and our | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
neighbours and how the rest of the world sees us. What has been | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
achieved in Europe since the formation of the EU is an | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
extraordinary thing, a continent intent on destroying itself for | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
decades and centuries as nations fought with each other, has been | :24:30. | :24:38. | |
transformed intone sin on mouse with co-operation. I often think of how | :24:39. | :24:48. | |
much we miss elder statesman such as Heath as Healy. Parliamentarian was | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
a memory of war who could remind us that this is about peace in Europe | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
and establishing unprecedented stability between countries which | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
had torn themselves apart through generations of conflict. While many | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
of the benches will say the European Union was established on the basis | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
of trade alone, I think many forget Nair history. The human declaration | :25:17. | :25:26. | |
produced in May 1950 proposed the creation of a European community to | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
lock the economies of Germany and France together into mutual | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
dependency, making war impossible. It was the first step in the | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
integration of Europe and one that many at the time thought should be | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
treasured. It was a remarkable first step. Now while the institutions and | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
treaties have changed, the principle that underpins them has remained the | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
same. Whether it was delivery of freedoms to ex-fascist countries | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
such as Spain, inspiring a new sense of hope and opportunity for the | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
ex-Soviet states or promising the restoration of free movement across | :26:06. | :26:13. | |
the former Yugoslavia, the dream of EU membership has facilitated peace, | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
progress and prosperity. Now it will come as no surprise that one day I | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
want to see Scotland have a seat at the top table of the European Union | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
as an independent member state. I want Scotland to have control over | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
its own foreign policy and defence policy, to control its own taxes and | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
resources and to make its own welfare decisions. Like other small | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
nations, Denmark, Finland, Ireland and Sweden, we know that this is | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
achievable while enjoying the benefits of a union which promotes | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
human brights, advances social Europe, guarantees workers' rights | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
in so many fields, where we work together to combat terrorism and | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
climate change and allow access to the world's largest trading area. | :27:04. | :27:11. | |
Membership of the European Union continues to provide the people of | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
Scotland with huge opportunities. The right as European citizens to | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
live and work in any EU member state is not something that should be | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
taken for granted. In 2012, 2013, over 1400 students from Scottish | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
universities were supported by the roughness programme to study | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
elsewhere in the EU. Scottish companies have taken full advantage | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
of the export markets, Scottish exports to the EU were worth ?12.9 | :27:40. | :27:47. | |
billion, that's some 46% of all Scottish exports in 2013 alone. The | :27:48. | :27:55. | |
vision I and my colleagues on these SNP benches have for Scotland is one | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
in which we play a full and active role on the world stage. Independent | :28:00. | :28:08. | |
but never insular. It was called subsidiarity by Sir John major, a | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
concept I think we probably believe in rather more than third John major | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
himself. Devolving as much as possible but quite pretty and and | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
pulling resources whenever desirable. The alternative vision | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
offered by the Eurosceptics is a depressing one. The pessimistic | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
vision of the Foreign Secretary is a depressing one. The prospect of | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
retreating into ourselves, closing our borders and withdrawing from | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
union which has brought unprecedented peace and progress to | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
this continent is a fate that never has and never will appeal to me. So | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
let us to romp it, an optimistic vision of Europe with verve and | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
enthusiasm and commend EU membership to the people of the United Kingdom | :28:56. | :29:05. | |
with passion. I agree that we have to understand the lessons of history | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
and if I for one moment, thought that leaving the European Union | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
would make a civil war in Europe, the remote is it possible, I would | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
not be standing here, advocating that we do leave. I come from a | :29:23. | :29:29. | |
post-war generation where my parents constantly talked about the war. It | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
was the essential fact of their life. My parents were 25 in 1945. My | :29:34. | :29:42. | |
mother had to flee France, Paris, hours before the German tanks rolled | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
in. Her best friend who was Jewish had to throw herself off a train and | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
be killed as she was being taken to the death camps. My father also had | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
to flee France. This was a defining moment in their life and it is not | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
the pricing that generation wanted to create more of a sense of | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
European solidarity and never to repeat the slaughter and horror of | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
two world wars. There was also a lack of confidence-and in that | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
post-war generation. In the lifetime of my parents and my early life, in | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
20 years, the world's largest empire dissolved. There was a lack of | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
confidence about our economy. My first job across the river, looking | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
at the Palace of Westminster, dreaming of becoming an MP, I was | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
having to work a three day week, by candlelight. There was a lack of | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
confidence about our economy. When I arrived here, in it was felt we | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
would find the life outside the European economic community, a cold | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
and hard place. Now we are in a different world, a new one. It is a | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
globalised world. A world where we have regained our confidence is the | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
fifth largest economy in the world. Therefore, some of these arguments, | :31:03. | :31:10. | |
based on the lessons of the past, realise there is now a different | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
future, the European Union may have played its part but it is actually | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
moved on from what we voted for in 1974. -- 19 75. It has become | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
something much more unified in that sense, much more powerful. What is | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
interesting is that so few people here who advocate our stay in the | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
union, seem to have this vision. Where are the speeches today, or | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
this week or in the country from those who favour remaining in the | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
EU, where is the vision? Where other people arguing for single currency, | :31:46. | :31:53. | |
where other people arguing for much greater cooperation and indeed an | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
ever closer union? Where are those voices in Parliament? Where are the | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
voices of all these great figures from our past, where are they? I | :32:05. | :32:17. | |
personally arguing to remain on national security grounds. Does he | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
take a view on this that if the United Kingdom were to leave the | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
European Union, the European Union would be less safe and if the | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
European Union is less safe, over the horizon, that is not in our | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
national security interest? I think that is a weak argument, perhaps one | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
of the weakest, that goes advocating us staying in the EU. I will not | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
repeat all the arguments but I will say this, just one example, just to | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
reply with recent history, does he think that the European Union, | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
attempting in a rather cack-handed way, to create an associated | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
agreement with the Ukraine was actually a good move to make? Has | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
that made you are a safer place? Is it not led directly, I don't approve | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
of this but have not led directly to the annexation of Crimea? An | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
imperialist Europe is not necessarily a force for security. A | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
force for security is the best national interest of the United | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
Kingdom working with our partners in Nato and that has been the case | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
since the Second World War. But what concerns me, first of all is this | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
lack of vision on the pro-European side which is in quite new in this | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
House and certainly was not the basis and foundation of debates in | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
the united -- 1970s when there were cases being made on both sides. On | :33:48. | :33:57. | |
one side,... On either side you had... | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
If we are united, this House and we don't want to be part of an ever | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
closer union, why are we then told that Armageddon will take place the | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
moment the people, not us, the people vote to leave. Why do we get | :34:13. | :34:20. | |
these apoplectic visions of what will go wrong? Why is the Government | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
so intent on not actually having a call, calm, independent audit of the | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
cost benefit analysis of what would happen if we decide to leave. I | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
suspect and I have read things like the open Europe briefing, that | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
actually, the difference is quite marginal. Open Europe suggests that | :34:40. | :34:47. | |
on the best scenario, we might gain 1.1% in GMP, that is to become a new | :34:48. | :34:56. | |
regulator, open society, and a worst-case scenario, we might lose | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
2.2%. It is quite a narrow debate. So if it is so, can we not just | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
raise the tone of it and can we not say, actually, whether we leave or | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
we stay in, it will probably not have a dramatic effect on our | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
economy. In that sense, I rather think it is exciting to think that | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
we might actually be able to run our own agriculture, for instance. I | :35:26. | :35:34. | |
represent a highly rural area, our agricultural industry employees 3.5 | :35:35. | :35:42. | |
million jobs, it provides 62% of the food we eat and contribute ?85 | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
billion a year for the UK economy. I think it would be rather exciting | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
for this House, our own ministers, to run agriculture. What about | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
fisheries? Do we will never wore the arguments of our friend Austin | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
Mitchell who represented Grimsby? Do we remember when you could walk | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
across all the decks of all the trawlers? It was given away in the | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
last two days of negotiations by Edward Heath? It would be quite | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
visionary and exciting for us to create a low tax, deregulated | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
economy and there is a world out there. Vincent Peters, a former | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand, is actually openly | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
speculated about, as he says, forgetting the terrible betrayal of | :36:33. | :36:41. | |
1973 and creating a new free trade agreement, not just with Australia, | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
as New Zealand is now including, but with us as well. There is an | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
exciting world out there with India, China. Do people not think... I will | :36:50. | :37:03. | |
give way. I will not because... He has given me extra time just by | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
standing up. I will finish my Speech now. I will not abuse the House. | :37:08. | :37:16. | |
Just on a fine thing, there is a world out there, let's grasp it and | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
trust the people and not be afraid and let's regain our freedom. First, | :37:21. | :37:28. | |
we have got ten speakers... It works out at six minutes each, that is | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
without intervention so those people who have spoken, think about the | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
ones who have not, to make sure they also get to speak. If we can help | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
each other, we will all get there. I'm delighted to be to contribute to | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
this debate today and I want to take the time allocated to talk about how | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
I personally have benefited as an EU citizen. It will be some of the big | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
issues other people have talked about and I agree with the member of | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
Lewisham West and pens when he said it can get a bit theological. I will | :38:01. | :38:09. | |
try to keep it personal. It may be a bit too far away for you to see but | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
I have a scar on my chin and I received this when I was 17 or 18 | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
when I was engaging in a cultural visit in a southern European country | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
more commonly known as the lads's holiday. Halfway through this trip I | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
unfortunately took in one too many libations and ended up in a fight | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
with the pavement. I had to engage the local medical services. Being | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
that I was younger than I am now, I didn't have any travel insurance. | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
But the whole process at the hospital was made very easy by the | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
fact I was carrying a European health insurance card in my wallet. | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
This allowed me to be treated quickly and for free and I would say | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
painlessly if they had waited for the local anaesthetic to kick in | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
before stitching me up. I know this seems insignificant to what has been | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
discussed today but as a practical way in which being an EU citizen has | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
impacted positively on my life and I am sure it is an experience that has | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
been shared by many other people my age. Further to this point, I have | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
been contacted by a number of young people who are slightly worried, | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
they are leaving school or university holidays, they are | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
worried and EU exit might mean that they would have the opportunity to | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
get off easily to Magaluf for the aforementioned holiday. Will they | :39:33. | :39:41. | |
have to go through the hassle and again, these issues may seem | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
insignificant but they are issues that matter to young people. | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
Particularly those young people who have been denied a vote in this | :39:49. | :39:56. | |
referendum. There are 170,000 EU nationals living and working in | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
Scotland, improving our economy, enriching our culture and | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
legislating in our Parliament, Scottish Parliament. I have | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
experienced the valuable contribution of them towards our | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
society. One even was my election agent. I recognise the very real | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
concern being expressed me by constituents who are EU citizens | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
about what will happen to them, their jobs, family and lives should | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
the eco--- UK leave the EU. They have also worried that they will not | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
be able to vote in this referendum. A large number of my constituents | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
are farmers. The European common agricultural policy provides vital | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
funding for them, helping them to maintain farming and forestry in | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
vulnerable areas and providing competitors to support other so they | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
have a wide range of food, rural and community activities across | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
Scotland. In the current financial period, Scotland will receive around | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
4.6 billion euros from Europe to implement caps across Scotland. | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
Farmers depend on our mothership of the EU to survive and thrive. Not | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
only are these people who produce our food and land, they are the | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
lifeblood of our rural communities. There is a substantial investment | :41:17. | :41:23. | |
Europe makes in our farmers. Many members have talked about where they | :41:24. | :41:26. | |
would like to see the EU doing less. I would like to talk about issues | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
where I would like to see it doing more. Again, it is on a practical | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
basis. I would like to see a single, digital market where customers have | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
the ability to buy and use digital content across borders. Why is this? | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
I want to watch Netflix abroad. If my sunbathing or sightseeing is | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
rained off, I want to be up to watch my favourite show without being told | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
by my screen that the current programme is unavailable in my | :41:55. | :41:55. | |
location. And so I have spoken about why the | :41:56. | :42:05. | |
EU is important to me, not big issues or theology, but one based on | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
self-interest, which I'm sure will have convinced some of the members | :42:10. | :42:20. | |
opposite. Thank you. Thank you very much for calling me. I believe 23rd | :42:21. | :42:27. | |
June will be the most momentous day in this country's history, certainly | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
in my lifetime and the opportunity to get our country back are there, | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
is there and I very much hope for all our sakes that we take it. I was | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
inspired by colleague's speech before me, because it was such a | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
positive one and that is what the out come pan it. -- campaign it. We | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
have heard from the in campaign, let me quote a leap in the dark, risks, | :42:54. | :43:04. | |
shut the curtains, close the door, not quite dad's army-style doomed, | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
but not far from it. Let me tell those who do our country down and I | :43:09. | :43:15. | |
believe they do, by speaking like this, that we have huge aspiration, | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
hope and opportunity if we leave the EU. We have absolutely nothing to | :43:22. | :43:31. | |
fear from leaving what in effect has become a welfare state. We are now | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
so reliant on nanny, and let's call the EU nanny, and nanny's bred us, | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
brought us up, give us things when we ask for them. Even when we don't | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
deserve them. And then when we get to a certain age it is time to break | :43:52. | :43:59. | |
free of nanny and get out there and start to grow up. Your told you | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
can't. Or worse you have been bred to point that you simply don't want | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
to. I believe that sadly where this great country and the speech from my | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
honourable friend mentioned his grandfather, for whom I have the | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
most huge RMT, as does o' O'-- respect as does the nation and I | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
didn't know him, I wish I did. But I believe he would be on the side of | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
those who want to get their country back. That is what I believe from | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
the history books that I have read. Now, we all hear the newspapers, | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
commentators and those who want to stay in that we are all as I think | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
the honourable lady described us, if I recall, middle aged grey-haired | :44:47. | :44:55. | |
gentlemen. I think it was her. Who basically are swivel-eyed lunatics | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
who want to stick up the Union Jack, dig a hole in the garden and sing | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
God save the Queen. Oh, if only it were that simple. That is not what | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
we want. We don't want that at all. But we do want to be free, we do | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
want to be free to control our destiny. We do want to be free to | :45:17. | :45:24. | |
control our sovereignty and democracy. Every speech I have heard | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
warning of the risks of leaving and how we won't trade with Europe and | :45:30. | :45:37. | |
all communication and intelligence will just shut down, 5,000 | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
terrorists we are told heading into the United Kingdom or Europe and | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
then on to us no doubt, they're not going to tell us? They're going to | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
sit there mute while London's blown apart or Glasgow or Manchester, or | :45:53. | :46:00. | |
Birmingham. These are so the euro files say our allies. They are | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
friends. They are decent people. We don't dislike them. We love the | :46:08. | :46:15. | |
Europeans. I am British and a European. And I'm very proud of it. | :46:16. | :46:22. | |
I want to be in and trade with Europe. I want to enjoy Europe. | :46:23. | :46:31. | |
Their culture and languages, their mountains, their seas. Their more | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
efficient trains and wider and faster roads. Their beautiful | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
countryside. Their wine. I want to enjoy it all as we all do, but I do | :46:42. | :46:49. | |
not and millions in this country do not want to be ruled by unelected | :46:50. | :46:59. | |
bureaucrats. Now I sit on the European scrutiny committee, which | :47:00. | :47:10. | |
is a great privilege. You may want to know last night as I headed home | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
in the taxi, I always talk to the drivers, Baz because they're always | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
fascinating. I told him who I was I said I'm an MP. He said, I won't | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
press the ejector seat. He said tell me, what do you think about the EU? | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
I said it is simple. Do you want to control the future of this country | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
or do you want to hand it across to unelected bureaucrats and a | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
political elite that are completely out of touch with the electorate? He | :47:43. | :47:53. | |
said, gov, do you know William Cash. I said I do. He said he sat here 25 | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
years ago and said the same thing. That is a true story. And was so | :47:59. | :48:09. | |
wonderful and far-sighted of my friend is he was right then and he | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
is right now. Let's get our freedom back on 23rd June. Thank you Mr | :48:15. | :48:24. | |
Deputy Speaker. I realise I'm one of a sadly dwindling number of members | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
of Parliament who actually don't just remember the 75 referendum, but | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
actually campaigned in it and indeed I do feel a certain sympathy with | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
the Government front bench, because even in the years running up to the | :48:39. | :48:49. | |
75 referendum, I was a pro-European, a very beleaguered pro-European | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
member of the Labour Party when the Parliamentary and the party | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
membership were opposed to it. The reasons I supported our entry into | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
the European community as it was then many of them were visionary and | :49:05. | :49:17. | |
many of them I heard most e-Quently-- eloquently articulated | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
by the members and in no way do I resile from the vision I had when I | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
supported Europe in those years. In the meantime like many people, I | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
have got very frustrated with the way in which Europe has conducted | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
its business and the getting bogged down in the details of regulation, | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
rather than some of the grand visions and aspirations that we saw | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
at the time. But at no stage have I ever believed that coming out of | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
Europe would do anything to resolve those issues and I have not changed | :49:52. | :49:59. | |
my position now. I want to spend the brief time I have available in just | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
stating with why I am still so firmly committed to our membership | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
of the EU. I week this referendum as an opportunity to get away from the | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
details of some of the debates we had to talk about the role that | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
Britain has with Europe and its potential role out of Europe and | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
exactly what considerations people will need to exercise when they cast | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
their vote on June 23rd. While I still have grand visions of Europe, | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
the fact is that I am and I think we all understand that people will make | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
the decision based on what they perceive and will be the best | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
interests for themselves and their country. And in the west Midlands, I | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
think there is probably no greater area that can understand and | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
appreciate the value that Europe has brought in that respect. The centre | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
for economic and business research showed in 2011 there were 400,000 | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
jobs linked to trade with Europe in the west Midlands, 200,000 of them | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
in manufacturing. That was before the huge investment that has come | :51:18. | :51:28. | |
from the Tata family in Solihull and the I54 development. They have made | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
it clear that one of the prime considerations in that investment | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
was membership of the EU and its market. Similar sentiments have been | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
uttered for investment in other parts of the country by Toyota and | :51:43. | :51:51. | |
Nissan and we must remember it is not just the major car companies, | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
icht is the network of small manufacturing businesses that | :51:58. | :51:59. | |
support those businesses that are dependent on our trade with Europe. | :52:00. | :52:07. | |
We must also remember that cars, 80% of our cars are exported. Half of | :52:08. | :52:16. | |
those to the EU. If anything took place that prejudiced our ability to | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
do that, the potential impact on areas like mine in the west Midlands | :52:22. | :52:28. | |
would be devastating. Now, nobody pretends that the EU is a perfect | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
institution. Or that exit from it would be an immediate catastrophe, | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
but I would say that in these days of foot loose international | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
development that a major manufacturer wanting to invest | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
either in the car industry or other sort of manufacturing given the | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
choice of investing in mainland EU Europe of a market of 400 million | :52:53. | :53:02. | |
people and a U. K of 60 million would opt for the former. And that | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
is a hard, real fact of political life that we have to live with. And | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
we must make sure that will not happen. My other main point that I | :53:16. | :53:22. | |
want to make is that if you look to the future, the global world | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
economies are going to be China, India, United States, possibly south | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
America or Africa, coming up. Our ability to negotiate with them and | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
access their markets is crucially dependent on being part of EU. Those | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
who say we are a great nation, yes we are, we are a great nation, | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
because we are in the EU. There is no reason for believing that if we | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
can't shape the EU we will be able to approach the by China, inds or | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
the United States if we are outside of it. The fact is we gain strength | :54:01. | :54:07. | |
in our international relations by being part of EU and working to | :54:08. | :54:18. | |
realise an international framework based on the values we have in our | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
democracies. When it was it ever said of the great figures of history | :54:25. | :54:32. | |
they learned to suffer tolerable irritations because they found | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
change difficult. This is not the history, it is the creed of slaves | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
and of failure. But it characterises the Government's position and the | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
campaign we are being offered by the Britain stronger in Europe campaign. | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
We have chose on the place before the public a historic decision which | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
that will last with us for generations and it is one that | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
should be taken in the tone of the speech by my honourable friend for | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
mid Sussex. While I made disagree with him, his speech had the merit | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
of being a great speech by a great man which deserves to be remembered | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
by history. Unlike the rest of the remarks we have heard, I have to say | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
I listened to the Foreign Secretary's speech with dismay. A as | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
he opened it again expressing all of this misgivings with the EU and all | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
of the problems with it and the Secretary of State for business will | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
expect me to refer to the article he put in the Mail on Sunday and said, | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
the UK should never have joined the EU and in my ways it is a failing | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
project in need of reform had we never taken the decision to sign up, | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
the UK would still be a successful country. Of course, he says that is | :55:45. | :55:54. | |
why I should be voting for the U. K to remain a member. This is not the | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
tone that I wish my country to follow. It is not the picture I wish | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
to be placed before the public. So what is at stake in this debate it | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
not whether we co-operate with the nations of Europe, but the basis on | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
which we co-operate with the nations of Europe and the world. Healthy | :56:13. | :56:20. | |
co-operation is voluntary. I believe that human prosperity and dignity is | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
all underscored by liberty and another name for liberty is | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
self-Government and self-government is what I came here to deliver. The | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
ability to have the dignity of determining our own destiny at the | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
ballot box. That is the great gift we should hand on to our children. | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
When people say we must think of what we hands on to the next | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
generation I think that the great gift which history has shown we must | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
hands on is the gift of Parliamentary deck si and | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
self-government -- democracy and self-government that leads to | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
liberty and prosperity. This leads to a real pro problem for | :57:03. | :57:19. | |
the Government. This reluctance is not doing any good for our country | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
and the nations of Europe. The Government's programme, suffice to | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
say, when you find yourself listening as I was and many of you | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
I'm sure, were last week, to the presenter John Humphries on the | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
today programme, asking, are we still calling this a renegotiation? | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
Then you know the jig is up for the Government's position, which is not | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
a fundamental renegotiation, it is a trivial one. When you look at the | :57:48. | :57:55. | |
front cover of money week, showing the Prime Minister pulling a tiny | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
white rabbit out of the hat, you know the jig is up. The spectator is | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
showing the Prime Minister with the food tray, lifting the lid with glee | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
and a tiny morsel on the plate, that is when you know the jig is up. This | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
is doing the Government no good to present this as anything other than | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
a trivial set of changes. We have ended up talking about whether the | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
deal is binding or not and I am indebted to my honourable friend for | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
putting in front of us contrary evidence. Saying this deal is | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
legally binding is to torture the English language in a way only | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
capable lawyers are capable of doing. It is ridiculous to say this | :58:38. | :58:44. | |
deal will affect a trajectory of our membership. I think it was largely | :58:45. | :58:51. | |
symbolic. I think this is a shambles. It is looking like a | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
shambles and it is not merely a shambles but becoming a rolling | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
fiasco, as day after day, the Government lurches from one position | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
to the other, trying to defend their renegotiation. We have the | :59:04. | :59:12. | |
Government saying they had never signed up to this letter. | :59:13. | :59:22. | |
With his position of those companies, a third of the FTSE 100 | :59:23. | :59:28. | |
who did sign a letter about jobs, it turns out 36 of them received 120 | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
million euros in grants from the European Commission and they spent | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
millions of euros lobbying EU. It is not so good for the small companies | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
in my constituency to will be forced out of business. I am not going to | :59:46. | :59:53. | |
return to the remarks I made on the 2nd of February, I don't wish to be | :59:54. | :00:01. | |
so crass once again but this deal still stinks. What we need instead | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
is to set before the public that what they are being asked to do is | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
to choose to remain in the EU, on the basis of the Lisbon Treaty which | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
our party opposed the good reason. At least let's have an honest debate | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
which says, do you wish to surrender yourself Government into this | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
political project or do you wish to govern yourself? Can I start by | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
paying tribute to the impassioned Speech the Mbemba row for Sussex... | :00:33. | :00:43. | |
I will seek not to repeat any points that have been made but try to | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
introduce a few more into today's debates. Membership is important for | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
Scotland and United Kingdom at we need to work are to maximise its | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
potential. The Prime Minister has most unfortunately focused on | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
peripheral issues, rather than seeking to grasp the real | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
opportunity that came before us during that the gauche elation | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
process. Whatever the result of the referendum, how we are perceived by | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
our fellow member states is extremely important and I certainly | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
don't want to be seen as carping from the sidelines as opposed to | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
leading from the front in any debate in the EU. This week, I've asked two | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
Government ministers that they can set at the cost of implement in this | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
deal, particularly in relation to the benefit changes. None of them | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
were able to. I think it is rather important that this clarity around | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
whether the proposed restrictions and administration thereof will | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
leave the Treasury... The deal is a sideshow failing to address really | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
important issues. For instance, when you have 27 heads of state around a | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
table and clearly the Prime Minister had their ear, where were the | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
discussions to improve the transparency of negotiations, secure | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
the necessary changes to the deal to protect our public services and | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
uphold the principle that our parliaments can pass legislation | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
without challenge by international corporation? | :02:11. | :02:27. | |
... Over and above these issues, lasted, Scotland's first ministers | :02:28. | :02:40. | |
set out key areas of reform we would like to see. That is reform from | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
being as a member of the EU as opposed outside. It should allow | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
member states more autonomy to tackle pressing problems, public | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
health is a relevant example. Member states should be able to take the | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
decisions they deem necessary to promote health. The EU should | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
complete the single and work towards a digital single market. An energy, | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
an integrated energy market would benefit consumers and provide | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
greater security of supply. We want to see regular reform, changes to | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
allow more decisions to be made. We should be negotiating for these | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
things from within, as a willing member of the EU wanting to play a | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
full part, not as a reluctant tag along which is how we are | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
consistently now seen. EU membership is good for Scotland. The best deal | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
for Scotland of course would be to have our own seat at the table as an | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
independent and proud nation. But despite the fact Scotland is not a | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
member state yet, we absolutely benefit from our current membership | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
status, not least companies adding to the economy, Scottish workers get | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
vital protection, including guaranteed holiday and maternity | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
leave and protection from discrimination. Our membership of | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
the EU keeps check on this Tory Government that Scotland did not | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
vote for because over and above the positive benefits of EU membership, | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
it becomes increasingly clear over the last week, that a fundamental | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
benefit of our EU membership has been to keep this very Government in | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
check. Justice Secretary last week said, it is hard to overstate the | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
degree to which the EU is a constraint on ministers's ability to | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
do the things they were elected to do or to use their judgment about | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
the right course of action for the people of this country. If the EU | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
really acts as a handbrake on this Tory Government plans to dismantle | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
workers's writes, that is another extremely compelling argument to | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
those of us on this side of the House wanting to stay in and support | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
our continued membership, if there ever was one. The referendum has | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
been driven by the Tory party's long-standing internal divisions on | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
Europe and the challenge to them from Ukip, rather than the specifics | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
of the David Cameron renegotiation. This campaign to stay in must learn | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
the lessons and mistakes of the project fear campaign we saw in the | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
Scottish referendum. As things stand, it is very likely Scottish | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
votes will play a crucial part in retaining the UK's EU membership and | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
my colleagues and myself are happy to step up and make the positive | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
argument for Europe because that is the writing of our country. | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon will no doubt be a leading | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
and welcome light in this debate and best House and the people across | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
these islands can look forward to an SNP campaign which will be | :05:47. | :05:58. | |
uplifting, upbeat. It was very reassuring early on to her my right | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
honourable friend, the Foreign Secretary, to say he was a Euros | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
tick and explain how successful the renegotiations were from his Euros | :06:07. | :06:22. | |
tick ivory tower. -- Euro sceptic. In the manifesto, it was an absolute | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
requirement, I opened to the paragraph where we get onto child | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
benefit not being given to anybody whose children are living abroad. It | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
seems to be that has not has been achieved. Our Foreign Secretary has | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
failed in that regard. In the Conservative Party manifesto it said | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
we would reform the workings of the EU which is too big, too bossy and | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
bureaucratic. The workings of the EU post the renegotiation are still too | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
big, too bossy and to bureaucratic. Our promise, our pledge to the | :06:59. | :07:10. | |
British people that we would reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf, | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
on the half of the British people and safeguard British interest in | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
the single market. We have not reclaimed a single power so in that, | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
the Foreign Secretary has failed to live up to his euro-sceptic | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
credentials, of which he posts and to which I credit him because the | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
Foreign Secretary is an honourable man. My right honourable friend the | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
Prime Minister said that what we needed was fundamental and | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
far-reaching reform. We have not achieved that, the Foreign Secretary | :07:40. | :07:49. | |
has let him down in this regard. We have not achieved anything of any | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
great substance that on the free movement of people, we have nothing. | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
We have so little on the issue of benefits that the great mass | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
migration will continue, it is announced today, 257,000 people came | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
from the EU in the last year. 55,000 of them from Bulgaria Andrew Mania. | :08:09. | :08:17. | |
Our euro-sceptic friend has done nothing to change this. -- from | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
Bulgaria and Romania. Excessive regulation is not some | :08:21. | :08:33. | |
external plague that has been visited on our businesses. At this | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
plague is to continue, they have done nothing to stop this plague | :08:39. | :08:47. | |
with the renegotiation. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
said he thought it was essential in terms of immigration to restore a | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
sense of fairness, to make our immigration system fairer and reduce | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
the current exceptionally high level of migration from the EU. Nothing | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
has been done to achieve this. The renegotiation is not only a failure, | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
because it has achieved so little, it has failed to tackle the problem | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
is that we promised the British electorate that we would solve. It | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
is worse than that because we have given away our negotiating card when | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
the European Union comes to a fundamental treaty reform of its | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
own. In the document that came up last weekend, it said member states | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
whose currency is not the euro should not impede the meditation of | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
legal acts recced link to the functioning of the euro area and | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
shall refrain from is which could jeopardise containment of objectives | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
of economic and monetary union. So the euro-sceptic Foreign Secretary, | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
the honourable man I was referring to have managed, with the Prime | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
Minister, to give away our most powerful renegotiation tactics. We | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
have nothing to say because we have promised we will do nothing. So we | :10:04. | :10:11. | |
have left ourselves still on the path to the European superstate, | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
that state have been getting bigger and bigger since we joined it in | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
1972, a state that has a flag, it has an anthem, because it is greedy, | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
it not only has one but five presidents. It has a Parliament that | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
has two seeds of operation. A state with the symbols of statehood and | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
the powers of the state. It has legal personality, to conduct treaty | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
negotiations, it has the legal power to make laws. And those laws are | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
senior towers. Am I right -- my right honourable friend, the Foreign | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
Secretary said the treaty is legally robust. But he phrased himself | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
carefully with the pedantry one would hope and expect of from | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
somebody from the Foreign Office. He said it was robust in terms of | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
international law. That gives it no justice should ability in the courts | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
of the European Union, it is merely taken into account. We have a pretty | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
worthless agreement and we have scare stories to tell us why we | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
should not join. If it was so dangerous, why did the Prime | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
Minister offer us a referendum? If we thought the world would collapse | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
on the day we voted no, is he some such hooligan who thinks it is safe | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
to risk his nation's future by trust in the future? When he said he | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
brought nothing out, surely he meant it and surely wasn't saying he was | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
in fact he was always going to go along with whatever our friends in | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
Brussels said because the Prime Minister is a most trustworthy | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
figure who negotiates in good faith and that is the problem of all that | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
underlies this negotiation. Minutiae, It is always daunting to | :11:58. | :12:07. | |
follow the honourable gentleman. But there has been talk today of whether | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
So rinse tri-is an illusion and I know sovereign triand the notion of | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
Parliamentary sovereign tri-is something that many members hold | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
dear. I would like to make a plea for respect for the constitutional | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
tradition in Scotland in relation to sovereignty. It asked if it was the | :12:35. | :12:42. | |
intention to unveil a British sovereignty bill and what provision | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
would be made to recognise that the unlimited idea is an English | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
principle. He confirmed it is his view that we have a sovereign | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
Parliament and he was looking forward to bringing proposals. We | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
await them with baited breath buchlt he didn't address the difference | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
between English and Scottish legal theory. I had the impression he did | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
not know what I was talking about. I know the Prime Minister is a | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
distinguished scholar. Every lawyer with a Scottish law degree knows | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
there is a tradition of the sovereignty of the people in | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
Scotland. That conflicts with the principle in England and there is a | :13:34. | :13:46. | |
case in 1953 and a case about the Hunting Act where it was said | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
Parliamentary sovereignty is no longer if it ever was absolute. It | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
is no longer right to say... It is no longer to say the freedom to | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
legislate admits of no qualification. Step by step the | :14:03. | :14:11. | |
English principle of the absolute legislative sovereignty of | :14:12. | :14:13. | |
Parliament has been qualified. The rule of the court is the controlling | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
factor on which our constitution is based. I refer her to chapter 12 of | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
the rule of law by Lord justice Bingham, where he criticises other | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
ebb members of court for taking what he would describe as a wrong view of | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
the whole question o sovereignty. I'm aware of Lord Bingham's opinion | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
on the views expressed in the Jackson case. But they're opinions. | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
Their not binding precedents. The point is the opinion of Lord Hope | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
and Lord President Cooper in the 1953 case are well founded in | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
Scottish historical tradition. We heard last year about the Magna | :15:03. | :15:12. | |
Carta signed in 12 15, well Arbroath is Scotland's Runnymede and | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
recognised in Scotland it is the people and not Parliament who are | :15:17. | :15:24. | |
sovereign and that is the difference between English and Scottish | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
sovereign law. It is a difference of long-standing. The declaration | :15:28. | :15:35. | |
ofboth was a letter written by the nobility of Scotland to the Pope | :15:36. | :15:37. | |
asserting our right of independence and the right of the people to | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
choose their king. Most importantly, the nobility said that the | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
independence of Scotland was the prerogative of the Scottish people | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
and not the king of Scots and the nobility who were at that time the | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
people of Scotland would choose someone else if Robert the Bruce | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
proved to be unfit. This last point has been interpreted by many | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
scholars assen expression of O'-- as an expression of popularity | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
sovereignty and kings can be choosen by the community rather than by God. | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
And it is this notion we find in other modern democracies that | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
consider themselves to be ruled by the rule of law rather than | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
Parliamentary sovereignty. Law can have many sources. I give way. It | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
correct that the community of recommend passage has been cited in | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
the Senate resolution as being an inspiration for the American | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
declaration of independence. My honourable friend is correct and | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
many of the founding fathering of the American constitution were of | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
Scots descent and drew on the declaration of Arbroath. Anyone who | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
doubt there is is a foundation for the notion in Scotland the people | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
have sovereignty should look to writings of Neil McCormack who w | :17:07. | :17:15. | |
professor at the university of Edinburgh and a distinguished | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
Scottish nationalist, the son of the petitioner in the case of McCormack | :17:19. | :17:25. | |
I mentioned and an internationally recognised juryist, who nobody could | :17:26. | :17:34. | |
doubt his eminence in this field. So what I'm asking for is respect when | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
this Parliament comes to debate the Prime Minister's bill dealing with | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
the sovereignty, because I understand that many members from | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
England hold Dicey's doctrine of Parliamentary sovereignty dear and | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
I'm aware it can be traced back to Tudor times and beyond. Of course, I | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
am sure they will be keen to preserve it in so far has it has | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
suffered many knocks already. But we were told in the independence | :18:10. | :18:17. | |
referendum that Scotland is an equal partner and people will wish to | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
accord the Scottish doctrine of the sovereignty of the people of | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
Scotland equal respect. When our two Parliaments united in 1707 it wasn't | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
the case that the English Parliament swallowed whole the Scottish | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
Parliament. It was a union of two Parliaments. So it is not logical to | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
say that the English notion of the doctrine of the sovereignty of | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
Parliament should reign supreme and the notion of the sovereignty of the | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
people should be ignored. In fact, it is often said that the advocates | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
of Parliamentary sovereignty are defending a doctrine that not even | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
the higher British judiciary hold. It is interesting and I'm indebted | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
to Lord Leicester for drawing to my attention that Dicey himself in his | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
opposition to Irish home rule was prepared to depart from his doctrine | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
of Parliamentary sovereignty and in fact in 1913 Dicey said if the home | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
rule bill was enacted it would have no constitutional validity and be | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
justifiable for the Ulster unionists to resort to rebellion. If members | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
are interested in the reference, I can give it to them. Even Dicey | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
himself was prepared to depart from the notion Nat English Parliament | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
was whole -- that the English Parliament was sovereign. If the | :19:47. | :19:55. | |
dock it is compromised in English law, that is more reason for the UK | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
Government to recognise it has no counter part in Scotland and to | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
tread carefully when they bring forward their British sovereignty | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
bill and accord respect to the different notions of sovereignty | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
across these islands. In the same year of the referendum in 1975, | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
Peter Finch won an Oscar for his role in the film Network with its | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
cry, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take any more. That sense | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
of alienation from the elite which I believe will drive the vote to exit | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
the EU on June 23rd. Let's look around us, why do members, | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
particularly those advocating we remain in the EU think that the | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
chamber is barely full. Can't they see a link between the growing power | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
of the EU and their influence on our democracy and the fact that we are | :20:56. | :21:05. | |
trapped here in this palace with diminishing powers to influence our | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
fellow citizens. I have been a patriot in terms of my opposition to | :21:11. | :21:22. | |
sometimes the defeatist and sick Coe fan tick attitude of so many people | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
in any party. I opposed the crazy policy in 1997 of ruling the single | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
currency out for one Parliament and the policy of wait and see, as if | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
you would wait and see to see if you wanted to get on board of the | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
Titanic and opposed the single currency. But like many | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
Conservatives MPs I wish the Prime Minister well in his negotiations | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
with other EU state and kept my own council hoping the pledges he had | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
made in the Bloomberg speech in 2013 would be enacted. But sadly it has | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
not. The EU is not willing to reform itself in a way that is beneficial | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
and desirable to securivities own long -- secure its own long-term | :22:16. | :22:25. | |
future and not wedded to a bureaucratic bemoth, disdainful of | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
national sensitivity, hurtling towards greater and ever closer | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
union and unconcerned at the serious reservations of the British people | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
and their representatives. In my opinion, the European Union has | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
already inflicted huge damage on Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
Ireland in the pursuit of monetary dogma and ideological obsessions | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
driven by the mania of a single currency. Primary at the behest of | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
German policy. In truth, the EU is a concept whose time has come and | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
gone. Within 20 years only one in sect dollars of world trade will be | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
within the EU and in the last six years the UK has run a 59 billion | :23:18. | :23:25. | |
pound deficit with the EU, but a massive surplus across the world, | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
but we can't exploit those opportunities, because we are locked | :23:31. | :23:38. | |
into EU trade agreements rather than with places like India, China and | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
South Africa, markets that would generate prosperity. And the | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
negotiations have been a failure. They're crumbs from the table. The | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
process has been depressings and an opportunities depressing one. The | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
Prime Minister asked for very little and he got less than that. Any | :23:58. | :24:06. | |
changes that have been given have been given grudgingly. No powers pob | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
repatriated to this house. The European court of justice takes | :24:13. | :24:24. | |
precedence over British law. The whole deal is legally unenforceable. | :24:25. | :24:32. | |
I want to talk about immigration. One always sees issues through the | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
prism of one's own constitution and I'm surprised and disappointed that | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
my honourable friend did not mention immigration given he is chairman of | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
the committee on migration. My constituency have seen the effects | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
of free movement. Part of that has been good, but it has meant slum | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
housing, low wages, welfare and health tourism, people trafficking | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
and they have concluded that the UK at the moment must control its own | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
borders and who comes to the country and for what reason and the | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
temperature U denies that aspiration and makes it impossible with the EU | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
now and in the any time in the future. I won't give way. I am | :25:19. | :25:27. | |
lacking tiechlt we have been told by the self-interested elite, the city | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
and the media and intelligence ya who looks down on voters, stay at | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
the heart of Europe and reform within, it has failed and it is a | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
fool's errand to believe it won't be a failure in the future. We know | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
what Brexit will be like, my honourable friend has said, may I | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
say this, all power is a lease hold. Given to us on trust and it is not | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
ours to give away for too long we have been selling the democratic | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
familiar si silver -- family silver, traducing our own Parliament | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
andivities powers. O' -- and its powers. I trust my constituents to | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
make the right decision and I will be campaigning to leave the EU. The | :26:15. | :26:23. | |
opportunity to speak today. The Greens welcome the referendum, our | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
position is in favour of staying in the EU. And since we have been | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
talking about passion, yes, I will admit I do feel passionately about | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
this. Not because I support the Prime Minister's renegotiation, by | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
and large I don't. But what is at stake is bigger. It is not because I | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
think the EU is perfect. But you know this place isn't either. I have | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
not heard Brexit supporters suggest we leave the House of Commons. It | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
not just because our membership has given us some of strongest | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
protection for the environment, wildlife and nature, and its not | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
only because there is a strong economic case for staying in. | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
Although there is. Above all, Greens are in favour of the UK remaining in | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
the EU because it is a choice about the kind of country we wants to be | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
and the kind of people we are and the future we want for our children. | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
The choice before us is more than about a calculation. It is about | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
whether we are outward looking and confident about our place in the | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
world and whether in a world the beset by economic and security and | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
other problems we believe we can better by working together and clab | :27:40. | :27:48. | |
rating or turning our back on our neighbours. We seen radical proEU | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
moments. Scientists for environment, and another Europe is possible and | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
in the U. And across Europe movements are growing and linking | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
up, showing a vision for a Europe of democrat circumstances sus | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
stainability and social justice. The European Union story goes that | :28:08. | :28:56. | |
the heart of what this referendum is about and I think it is a run mark | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
of story. Countries with different cultures and history is coming | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
together, choosing to share some degree of sovereignty while still | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
keeping their traditions in order to work towards the common good, to | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
achieve more together than they can alone. For all its procedures, it is | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
quite extraordinary on this troubled continent, that it is now | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
inconceivable there will be war between us, that we resolve our | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
differences not on the battlefield but in the debating chamber. I know | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
I have used that dreaded word, sovereignty, so let me say a few | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
more words about it. I know for some, sovereignty is an absolute, | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
like pregnancy, either you are or you are not. Yet in today's | :29:39. | :29:45. | |
independent world, real sovereignty is inevitably a relative. A recent | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
splendid article in the Economist puts it clearly so I would like to | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
quote it. It says a country that refuses outright De Paul authority | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
is one that has no control over the pollution drifting over its borders, | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
the consumer and trade laws to which importers and exporters are bound | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
and the security and economic crises compelling shock waves, migration, | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
terrorism, market volatility, deep into domestic life. It is to | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
acknowledge many laws are international beasts whether we like | :30:20. | :30:21. | |
it or not and it concludes its sovereign tree is the absolute... | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
Then the most sovereign country in the world is North Korea. It strikes | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
me that the very same people who are most concerned about what they | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
perceive as a loss of sovereignty in the EU, are relaxed about the much | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
greater loss of sovereignty involved in our signing up to damaging trade | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
acts. These are designed to grant sweeping rights for potential loss | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
of profit. To protect public health or vital natural resources. It is | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
hypocritical to argue the UK should leave the EU because of a loss of | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
democracy and sovereignty while at the same time, being among the | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
biggest supporters of the UK signing more of these dodgy deals. I | :31:07. | :31:14. | |
recognise that we are not going to extricate ourselves from it by | :31:15. | :31:15. | |
leaving the EU. In the time I have left, I want to | :31:16. | :31:27. | |
set out a few of the green priorities. These reforms we will be | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
fighting for not just during the referendum but hopefully in the | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
weeks and months following. Some of the greatest benefits from our | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
membership of the EU comes from our environmental protections are we | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
need those standards to get primacy over single market rules and | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
competitiveness. The recent action against Google, we have seen the | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
value of EU wide action and there is further to go on banking and tax | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
justice, banking regulation, including eight financial tax and | :31:58. | :32:06. | |
tougher rules on tax evasion. There are things we could do to make it | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
more democratic if the political will is there but we need to be in | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
it to change it. I think we should stay in the EU and make it into the | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
vehicle that it could be. Even before we get into the imaginations | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
of referendum and the pro 's and con 's of exit, the European influence | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
on our very language has been mined awhile. -- Brexit. | :32:30. | :32:40. | |
What was once a continent across the channel with a faintly novelty value | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
is now being painted by many as something sinister, to be feared and | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
demonised and it is regrettable. The word Europe seems to conjure up all | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
sorts of other phenomenal. -- phenomenon. The frighteners are put | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
on mostly about migration. At the time of the last referendum when I | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
was three, the chief association with it was economic, it was the EU | :33:07. | :33:19. | |
C. -- EEC. In the 80s, as was described the idea of social Europe | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
and attitudes changed on the left, the idea of the capitalist club, | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
that it was dissolved. I would say that all of these fronts and many | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
others, climate change has been mentioned which knows no borders. | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
Europe, it is wiser for us to stay in and the case to remain is | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
compelling. To leave behind our biggest trading partner would put | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
jobs at risk. Just the mere mention of the date caused turmoil on the | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
markets. That is a precursor of things to come should it go that | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
way. When I speak to people on doorsteps and ask which directive it | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
is that is in the interfering with their lives, they are at a loss to | :34:06. | :34:13. | |
say anything. It is not work and protection from maternity and | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
paternity leave, it is not EU competition agreements that are | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
brought down airline ticket prices or roaming charges and it is by | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
working together with our European partners that we can catch criminals | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
who do not operate within national borders, like climate change. With | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
mechanisms like the European Arrest Warrant. Our small island is much | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
stronger with the combined might of 22 nation states than we ever could | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
be alone. Implications are wide ranging. I call from -- came from | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
the university sector weather is great worry about European science | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
funding, massively derived from EU budgets. Even though student | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
mobility programmes, things like a ravenous which Willars to be | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
broad-minded. Europe is not an easy puzzle to solve, it has many | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
interlocking challenges across its nation states and between them so | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
people have described today, the refugee crisis, rising | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
anti-Semitism, worryingly, biting austerity, Greece going bust, it is | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
an existential crisis we face whether in or out but reforming our | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
alliance with Europe is not about a wham, bam, thank you man, shotgun | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
wedding, it is a long-standing process. In many senses, our | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
existing relationship to Europe could almost be described a somewhat | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
semidetached in the first place. We never were in the euro thanks to | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
Gordon Brown. All this predates Friday's so-called deal and I | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
remember an old Conservative slogan, to be in Europe but not led by | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
Europe, I think there is something in there. In an age of | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
globalisation, John Kerry and President Obama said the special | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
relationship would be at risk if we left. Prince William this week has | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
said the UK is enormously strengthened with our broader | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
partnerships, things like the UN, Nato, even the historical ties to | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
the Commonwealth, the former British empire where the sun supposedly | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
never set, no impediment to European membership because the two are not | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
mutually exclusive. Let us also not forget, as has been pointed out many | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
hours ago, that through its origins... Europe has kept the peace | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
from its beginnings. Those generations ravaged by two world | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
wars in a short space of time, they remember. As a London MP, I should | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
mention our nation's great capital and for me, it is come right out its | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
multiethnic suburbs, a globalised, mega city. The endorsement of leave | :37:03. | :37:11. | |
by the London Mayor, is completely out of step with our outward facing | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
polyglot capital. When he came to my seat, our vote went up by 30%. If we | :37:19. | :37:27. | |
return to those Continental words that have appeared in our lexicon, | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
when you think the the Prime Minister was boxed into a corner by | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
the lunatic fringe of his own party to do this, two words of -- spring | :37:39. | :37:50. | |
to mind. Bete noir seems to have turned into what Europe is for the | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
Conservative Party. Letters on both sides of the House who believe in | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
the right side of this argument, encourage everyone to repeat 1975 to | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
remain in so European affairs can go forward to their next chapter and we | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
can continue building the European project. | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
This has been an excellent debate and I have sat through a number of | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
debates in this chamber recently on the EU where it it has been much | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
less powerful and has centred on one side only of the argument. I have | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
listened to dry argument about process but today has not been like | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
that. The starting gun of the date of the referendum has opened the | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
door to both sides of the argument and raised the level and content of | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
the debate and I would like to make reference to a number of outstanding | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
contributions today. Firstly, the member for Leeds Central who set out | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
clearly the arguments for remaining in the EU and the balance of high | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
eloquence and pragmatism. I could not not make reference to the | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
contribution for the member from Mid Sussex. I think it was, passionate | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
and eloquent, we would all agree. If I may say is, it would be worthy of | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
his grandfather. It is one of the best speeches I have heard in my | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
time in this House. The member for Wolverhampton South East and the | :39:20. | :39:32. | |
member for the Whee -- Wrekin both gave passionate speeches. The member | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
for East Dunbartonshire, while I did not agree with his comments is an | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
independent Scotland, he was very passionate in telling us about the | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
formation of the European union and the dividend of peace. The member of | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
East Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, he entertained us to a personal | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
story about a practical, everyday importance of the European health | :39:57. | :40:06. | |
card. On this labour is united, the parliamentary Labour Party, Labour | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
Party is up and down the country, Labour membership and the vote | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
results of polling over time, the bass majority of Labour voters | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
believe written is safer and stronger and more prosperous as part | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
of the European Union. That is our view and that is what we will be | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
campaigning on. The member for Gordon pointed out that Labour | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
voters will be crucial in this referendum and I think there are | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
other groups as well, trade union members would be crucial and women. | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
I witnessed a conversation a few weeks ago between a husband and | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
wife. I observed rather than took part and the husband said, he is a | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
maths graduate and he said, I am interested in chaos here so I am | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
interested to see what would happen if we left the European Union | :40:56. | :40:57. | |
because I don't think it would look like what either side is saying. His | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
wife leaned across the table and said, don't you dare. Don't you | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
dare, I have three kids and this is about the future of them and I think | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
those kinds of conversations are going to increasingly happen as we | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
go towards the referendum. Mothers and grandmothers making decisions | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
that will impact upon the future of this country and I think in those | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
decisions, they will recognise written has become a rich country as | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
part of the European country, the fifth biggest economy in the world | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
and the second biggest in the EU. I am old enough to remember a time | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
before our membership when our national newspapers were fond of | :41:38. | :41:45. | |
telling us... If that was ever true, it is no longer true. The member for | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
Harwich and North Essex I think, said, if we are not in Schengen, and | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
not in the Eurozone, what is the point of being in the EU? There are | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
millions of jobs out there that are directly or indirectly dependent | :42:02. | :42:02. | |
upon being members of the EU. In my y70% of the trade we do with | :42:03. | :42:17. | |
do with the EU. In one city we make more cars in one month than Italy | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
does in a year F you go to Tees Port or the port of Tyne, you will line | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
after line of cars that are being exported to the EU. As a country, | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
nearly 50% of our trade wis the EU. We carried out ?44 billion worth of | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
trade last year and received 1.2 trillion worth of investment. A | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
third from the EU. No I won't give way. A third from the EU but the | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
remainder from countries outside of the EU because we are a gate way to | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
the EU. I have listened to the argument from the outer who believe | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
the world is lining up to enter into trade agreements with us when we | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
leave, but these people need to stop talking to each other and listen to | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
what the world is telling us. I was in sweend this week -- Sweden where | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
the Government said they want to continue trading with the UK if we | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
leave, but only as part of a trade deal worked out with the EU that | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
will cost us and require us to conform to the same rules as the | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
rest of Europe, including the free movement of people. The idea we can | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
walk away from the EU and yet still retain the advantages from the trade | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
deal that exist because we are members is frankly la la land. When | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
we are facing dangerers from international terrorism and | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
international crime, climate change, Russian expansion, that we would | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
think it is a good idea to sit isolated on the edge of the biggest | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
trading group in the world is... Dangerous. Labour will be | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
campaigning not just to remain in the EU as it is, I but as it could | :44:11. | :44:17. | |
be and deal with the issues that we can't deal with alone. Not just | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
terrorism and crime, war and migration and climate change, but | :44:24. | :44:31. | |
exploitive practices by employers who seek to cut wages and tax | :44:32. | :44:43. | |
evasion. We can't deal with the Googles of this world alone. The EU | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
was not formed as a political experiment or a project or a market. | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
Its purpose was to stop the regular slaughter that went on in western | :44:55. | :45:02. | |
Europe every 30 years. I -- appreciate the EU is not the only | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
reason why son is not lying in a grave in France as his grandfather | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
and brother are and we settle our differences around the negotiating | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
table aye appreciate how difficult it is to get agreement between 28 | :45:18. | :45:24. | |
countries. But it better than what went before. The peace dividends of | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
the EU is huge and as important today as it was in 1945. I want us | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
to vote to remain in the EU to ensure that the killing fields of | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
1914, 18 and 39, 45 don't happen again to the young people of our | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
country today or at any time in the future. May I first congratulate all | :45:46. | :45:55. | |
members who have taken part in the debate. Point of order. I thought | :45:56. | :46:03. | |
the minister might start with b ane polling -- with an apology for the | :46:04. | :46:12. | |
absence of minister. It is a surprising discourtesy to the house | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
that this convention has not been observed. What I would say it is the | :46:16. | :46:22. | |
choice of Foreign Secretary and who knows we may hear something yet. The | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
minister for Europe. My honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
meticulous in his courtesies to this House, but sometimes they have to | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
deal with urgent matters to do with the country's national security. I | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
want in particular to single out the speech from my honourable friend the | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
member for mid Sussex, which I think to anybody who heard it and which | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
ever side of the argument they stand on, we will remember as one of the | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
great Parliamentary set pieces of our years in this place. I don't | :47:02. | :47:10. | |
want to dwell at length on the arguments about the renegotiation, | :47:11. | :47:12. | |
because the Prime Minister went into this in detail and answered | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
questions for three hours on Monday. I would say this, that I have sat | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
through a fair number of these debates in the last six years. I | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
will be the first to say to my honourable friends for Wycombe and | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
Somerset they're models of consistency in their opposition and | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
if the Prime Minister had come back from Brussels brandishing the | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
severed heads of the members of European Commission and proceeded to | :47:46. | :47:53. | |
conduct an issue in London they would see it was feeble and | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
insufficient and not enough. I want to turn to the member for Gordon. | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
The member raised some serious issues about the impact of a British | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
withdrawal upon the devolved administration, particularly | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
Scotland. Now, my view is here that it is for the government of the | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
United Kingdom, the United Kingdom being the member state, party to the | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
treaties, to decide whether or not to trigger a... An article 50 | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
process after such a referendum result. But he is rite to sa right | :48:29. | :48:38. | |
to say there would be some complicated outworkings for all | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
three devolved administration and for the United Kingdom and English | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
statute book. Because there are a number of acts of Parliament which | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
reflect European law as it has developed over the past 40 years. | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
Those are thing which would have to be gone through in the two years | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
negotiations following the triggers of article 50 aye suspect in years | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
after that. Will give way. Does the minister understand if there is not | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
to be a vote, because it is superseded for a vote for out what, | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
would be the consequences of a vote in the Scottish Parliament, where | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
the popular vote had been for in. It is the United Kingdom that is the | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
signatory to the treaties and the United Kingdom Government takes the | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
decision on whether or not to invoke article 50. The member raised points | :49:30. | :49:37. | |
about what he saw security risks of people who had migrated to Germany | :49:38. | :49:45. | |
crossing to the United Kingdom. The member for Wrekin did say that we | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
did have some effective security arpgmentes at our -- arguments at | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
our borders and the chief terrorist threat to the United Kingdom too | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
often comes from British citizens themselves and not only that, but | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
there have been terrorist incidents abroad which have been brought about | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
by people who were British born and bred. But in Germany it takes eight | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
to ten years to get citizen ship. To do so you have to have a clean | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
criminal record and pass an integration service and have an | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
independent source of income. It is because the tests are rigorous that | :50:21. | :50:30. | |
only 2.2% of refugees in Germany take German citizenship and get | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
passports. We can stop people at our borders and refuse entry to anyone | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
about whom there is information of terrorist links. What some people | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
overlook is that our safeguards are stronger because we are party to the | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
various European agreements on data and information sharing such as on | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
passenger name records that we would be outwith if we were to leave the | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
EU and were unable to negotiate an alternative arrangement. The key | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
question in deciding our position on membership is this, it is whether | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
as, I think my honourable friend for South Dorset said, how is it that we | :51:18. | :51:25. | |
will be better able to control our destiny and influence the lives of | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
the people we represent? And the trouble with the arguments that | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
those supporting the case to leave must face is that the alternatives | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
that we see around us, most notably Norway and Switzerland, are of | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
countries which in order to get free trade and the single market, have | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
had to accept not only all the EU regulations, that govern those | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
matters, without any say or vote in determining them, but have had to | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
accept the free movement of people and duty to contribute into the EU | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
budget. That is not sovereignty, that is kingship with a paper crown, | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
without the power to shape European policy and co-operation for the | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
benefit of the people whom we are sent to represent from all parts of | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
the United Kingdom. What I have been dismayed by during the debate has | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
been that with the exception of the member for Gainsborough there has | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
been so little attempt to describe what this alternative is that will | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
enable us to have all the things that we value about European Union | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
membership with none of the things that may mat tore other governments | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
around Europe and which we find troubling. I'm not going to give | :52:53. | :53:00. | |
way. And I am bemused that some of my colleagues have managed to | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
convince themselves of two propositions. First, that other | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
European countries are at present engaged in what was termed a | :53:10. | :53:16. | |
vindictive and spiteful attempt to harm our interests, a conspiracy to | :53:17. | :53:25. | |
do us down and yet they will rush to give us what we want with none of | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
the down side if we vote to leave. This is a fanciful analysis of | :53:31. | :53:37. | |
European politics today. I accept that if you accept that... You want | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
a single market, then you have to have EU rules that go with it and | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
the other costs such as those that Norway and Switzerland have to pay | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
today. And it does seem to me that we are putting so much at risk at a | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
time of real peril for not just for this country, but for the whole of | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
the west. We face a massive economic challenge from global competition | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
and from transnational crime and the collapse of states in parts of | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
Africa and the Middle East which has allowed terrorism, people and drug | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
trafficking to flourish. The challenge from a newly aggressive | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
Russia in eastern Europe and the Middle East and no one country in | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
Europe, not even the biggest will be able to tackle these challenges on | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
its own. That is why our key allies are not just those in Europe, but | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, see the | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
United Kingdom as stronger and more influential in the world by being | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
leaders in our own continent. I'm dismayed by the attitude of the | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
leave campaign to the risks that their campaign poses to the possible | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
fragmentation of west. It is something that is truly shocking. | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
What we need to do is have confidence in the ability of this | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
country to lead and shape events in Europe. As we have done in creating | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
the single market and as we have done in pioneering free trade deals | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
and in organising a firm response through sanctions to Russian | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
aggression in Ukraine and to Iran's nuclear programme. The United | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
Kingdom should be confident about our ability to work with allies. In | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
Europe, and around the world. We should not see those two things as | :55:35. | :55:41. | |
in any way contradictory. As we look to the future, and we face the | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
challenge again of large scale migration driven by terrorism, by | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
famed states, by climate change and economic problems in so much of the | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
developing world, again that is something where we need to work | :55:58. | :56:06. | |
together. And we see the United Kingdom today a European power, but | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
a power and a European power with global interests and global | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
influence. Those two aspects of this country are not contradictory, they | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
complement one another. I believe we need to go forward with that | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
confidence, with that optimism that the United Kingdom can help make a | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
better future not just for every family in this country, but for all | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
the nations of the wider European family as well and that is the case | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
that I and my colleagues will be putting to the country in the months | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
to come. The question is to consider the European affairs. As many of | :56:53. | :57:01. | |
that opinion say aye, the contrino. The ayes have it. | :57:02. | :57:07. |