07/03/2016 House of Commons

are very important part of education and we have encouraged more schools

to organise the strip for young people as much as possible. I'm

sorry, but we must move on. Urgent question, Mr Alistair Carmichael.

Does the secretary of state from the event make a defendant on

announcement that the Royal Navy will join Nato forces in the

interception of migrants and refugees in the Mediterranean?

Secretary of State for defence, Michael Fallon. The scale of the

migration challenge, Mr Speaker, requires Nato, the European Union

and other European countries across Europe to work together to address

both its symptoms, the constant flow of migrants and the conditions we

see them faith and the causes in Syria and beyond. We must also work

with locals ability and authority of to tackle the gains that profit from

smuggling migrants. The United Kingdom has already been engaged for

several months with the home office ship deployed in the region since

November, with a detachment of border force officers. On the 11th

at B be wary, Nato defence ministers to the decision -- February two AA

Nato ships to intercept the migrant boats and described the smugglers

business market. Nato s standing business market. Nato s standing

maritime group to arrive in the region within 48 hours of the

decision and has been conducting initial reconnaissance and the

valence of illegal crossings since then. The Nato secretary-general

outlined in a statement yesterday evening the discussions between Nato

Turkey and Greece have now agreed that Nato bustle can now operate in

Greek and Turkish territory and waters. We have therefore decided

that the UK contribution is to send our at a man's grey and a maritime

helicopter to the Aegean Sea. They will be there to support the Nato

monitoring and surveillance task, they will work alongside three

border force boats. One of which is on its way to the region and that

further one expected to start operations later this month.

Together they will support the Turkish and Greek Coast Guard and

the U front next mission. The Prime Minister Mr Speaker is attending

today s EU Turkey summit on migration, contributing to the EU

and Nato missions to counter smuggling is only part of the

government s wider approach to tackle the root causes of irregular

migration. The United Kingdom is leading the way in tackling these

issues at their stores, providing significant amounts of aid to assist

in stabilising troubled regions and lessening the need for people to

leave. Meantime, this Royal Navy deployment is an important part of

the international effort to assist the Turkish and Greek authorities in

reducing this criminal and dangerous people trafficking. Can I thank the

secretary of date for that answer and thank him for coming here to

make this statement today. What he describes is a series of tactics,

many of which I think will find Rob support in this house, but it does

seem to me that they do not add up to a strategy. It is referred to

today in the press of being a war against the Bulldogs occurs. If we

are to win that war, Mr Speaker, I yield that what we need to do is cut

off the supply to the people jive records of those who are desperate

enough to pay to use them and of course that means in the longer term

these in their countries of origin, but in the short to medium term

surely that means a series of safe and legal route into Europe,

expansion of the refugee family scheme and introduction of

humanitarian visas. Can the Secretary of State tell me today

what will happen to those seeking refuge who are intercepted in the

Aegean Sea? Will they be taken back to Turkey and does that not been run

contrary to the principle of non-defilement which is at the

centre of international refugee law? Will be done to keep under review

the widely questioned status of Turkey as a safe country to which

people can be returned? Is he aware of the reports from human rights

watch describing people being sent from Turkey back to Syria? And what

impact does the government think that this action will have on the

flow of refugees elsewhere? The secretary of state I am sure will be

aware that last year 35,000 people came to Europe through Russia, and

what will be the impact but not land route, if the sea route is to be

closed down? And what will this mean for the deployment of resources

elsewhere? In the Mediterranean in particular, assisting those

travelling from Libya to a delete? The Secretary of State will be aware

that because guard cutters were devoid on that route last year, will

they be available to help those who get into difficulty on that route

which will see many more deaths by drowning than that in the AG Mr

Speaker, if this is to be a war against people jive thinking then I

fear that as with all wars there'll be in a civic terms and the

epistemic ends it seems to me will be those who are desperate enough to

undertake the journey across the Aegean Sea, across the land route

and across other parts of the Mediterranean. Will the secretary of

state in Germany and assure the House that these people will be

uppermost in the government s consideration? I am grateful to the

right honourable gentleman. There are of cores already and is that

victims of the stick will try clicking. Several hundred have

drowned this winter, several thousand drowned this year. Last

year and it is in all our interest to reduce the number of people who

attempt this dangerous crossing. He is right, we have to work at cutting

off the supply, much further back and we have done that I think

through our contribution to the reconstruction of Syria and our aid

programmes both in Pakistan and Afghanistan and much further south

and east and west Africa. So far as the creation of safe Routes is

concerned, I'm not convinced that establishing some roots as safer

than others will do anything to reduce the flow am on the contrary.

I think we need to increase the capacity, particularly of the

Turkish authorities and the Turkish Coast Guard to be able to intercept

these boats before they set off on what is a very very dangerous

crossing. He asked me specifically about interception. The position is

that if a boat in distress can be intercepted in Turkish waters,

Turkish authorities, or have alerted by the helicopters that are now

deploying from the international forest, then of cores buried a

greater chance the Turkish Coast Guard will be able to return that

particular boat to the Turkish side. If they are intercepted and

international Greek waters they are more likely to be taken to the Greek

reception points. So far as the effect on the alternative route that

opened up last summer from Libya to Italy is concerned, HMS Enterprise

is still on station any Iranians see and gasp Iranians see and just

yesterday rescued around 100 people. What is important in this I think is

to begin to establish a policy of return, so there is less incentive

for migrants to attempt these extremely dangerous crossings and

less incentives for the criminal gangs to make money out of them

doing so. If it is now established European Union policy and UK policy

that it illegal migrants should be returned, why aren't the

instructions to personnel on our place to take people back where they

came from if they do not have legal papers or are genuine asylum

seekers? My right honourable friend, the prime is in Brussels today

discussing the entire issue of returns. With European Union and

other countries who are attending that particular meeting. It is

unlikely that are at a man's brain itself is going to be involved in

rescuing from boat in distress, of course there is the floor of the sea

that places that have obligation on her but she is going to be further

off because and it is more likely that a helicopter will be able to

identify both matter closer to shore and in immediate distress that can

then be picked up by the Turkish or Greek authorities and returned under

their law. . And gratitude of the whole house are with the men and

women aboard the ship as babes join the Nato deployment in the AGN see.

Once again this crisis demonstrate how the British armed forces played

a crucial role on our domestic and peace and security across the world.

People chugging generates billions from misery and suffering of some of

the planet s most desperate people. There is a real urgency not just to

deter and bring to justice the people responsible but also

deterring those victims from undertaking the perilous journey.

While we welcome the role disabled play is made and all conjugates into

a gigantic process and have made a reminder of how the Royal Navy rest

surveys lead has been reduced by one 2010. Does he feel unable resources

are too stretched to play a larger role and can us the belief the two

border vessels aren't there not protecting UK sees because of the 20

point -- 2010 at the SR. What more can you tell is about when the

national said strategy building report and... Nato joining what is

previously been an EU role further demonstrated the extent to which our

role in the EU enhances our global security. Does he agree with the

bright minister that leaving the EU may bring refugee camps to be

streets of brain and moral -- what more can he tells about how he

believes EU hopes to keep her in faith? Once again with the loop read

his servicemen and women making the world safer and fairer. The

government must make sure we have a strategy in place to ensure an error

sea and land Britain can always answer the call. I am grateful to

honourable gentleman and let me reciprocate. Good wishes to Captain

Taylor and the crew, and the helicopter squadron that is

accompanying the ship. So far as its efficiency is concerned, there are

five Nato ships on station at the moment -- sufficiency. A German ship

which is the flagship of the group, eight weeks ship, eight and 80 and

said, an Italian ship and a Turkish ship. We will be making its sixth

straight out across the AGN feed. Of course there are 22 other members of

Nato and I hope they also will be considering what contribution they

can make. But our ship is a substantial ship and have the

helicopter performed to contribute significantly to the surveillance,

particularly of the middle part of the AGN see, we envision the ship

will be operating mainly in waters just last of kills. So far is the

relevance of the ship building strategy is concerned we are

developing that Chatterjee at the nose and in light of the strategic

defence review and we hope to complete it later this year. So far

as it attempt to bring Nato and European Union membership into this

today, let me be clear with him, the mission in BC between Libya and

Italy is a European Union mission because it employees it may need the

legal authorities that the European Union can add in dealing with the

new Libyan government. The group deployed is a Nato mission because

it involves a ship with a Turkish Navy and is dealing largely with

migrants from Turkey, which is a member of Nato. Every playlist

rating that we need to be -- perfectly illustrating we need to be

members of both Nato and the European Union and that being

members of both gives us the best of both worlds.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think my -- thank my right honourable friend for

his payment and indeed the Royal Navy for their amendment to this

mission demonstrating that we have an important role to play in

European defence and security. But my right honourable friend, by

making this clear that this is a Nato mission, underlines the point

that it is Nato that provides easy purity of our continent and not the

European Union as the government seeks to present. This is a Nato

mission and the proposal of Germany because Germany was leading this

particular maritime standing group, that the equally important mission

in the Iranian see between Sicily and Libya is a European Union

mission and there are other examples of European union missions in Bosnia

or off Africa that have been equally effective in saving lives. We

welcome the decision by the UK government to join with Nato in

trying to tackle this truly awful level of humanitarian -- human

trafficking in the Mediterranean, but this has to be we believe a

2-pronged approach, one that involves stoppingly trafficking but

also rescuing and resettling of the refugees. May I put on record my

thanks to the people of Butte in my constituency who have shown such

support and compassion to those refugees who have arrived in their

community? And pager beeped to be Scottish Government to have given

the refugees the best possible chance to integrate as fully as

possible. As this crisis worsens, the need for the UK government to

connect to take -- commit to take 3000 unaccompanied vulnerable and

displaced children becomes ever more of an object priority. And further

to that and looking at the bigger picture, when will the Secretary of

State update this house as he promised he would do on the

government s military strategy in Syria? On the first point, let me

welcome the contribution that comment is making. I am sure he will

want to know that some of the Royal Marines are from the East Coast of

Scotland and I am glad that he welcomes this particular mission. So

far as his question on refugees is concerned, he will know that we have

already committed to taking refugees from the camps in Syria and indeed

taking unaccompanied children that the UN CA -- UNC HR can identify

further west in Europe and we have played a leading part in that as

indeed we have in the reconstruction conference that is taking place for

the future of Syria. So far as military operations in Syria are

concerned, we regularly add date -- update the information available on

the ministry of defence website and I am happy to answer any additional

questions that he has. Think you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the Secretary of

State Bath Bahebeck and the role of the Navy, many hands to make light

work. Forgive me for being overly complicit but I like to understand,

is best latest offering purely about moving bodies back to coastlines or

how does it integrate with the resettlement of refugees in the

chaos that our European neighbours on themselves and? The primary

purpose of this mission is to provide monitoring, surveillance and

reconnaissance of the migration route across the AGN see which will

better enable the Turkish and Greek coast guards to intercept the bows

and to disrupt the business model of the criminal traffickers. And where

they can intercept these both in either characters or group waters

they are able to better rescue there those on board before they get too

far out to see any dangerous areas. Obviously, preventing people risking

their lives by making such a dangerous journey is the right thing

for the EU and Nato to try to do, but for those who have already

arrived in Greece, there are 13,000 of them now at the Macedonian border

in terrible wet and damp and cold conditions. Children with Ron Titus,

he has said that the British government will not do anything to

take any of them, where does he think those 13,000 people should go

Woods -- Ron Titus. The British government is taking

refugees from Syria as we have already made beer and some of those

have arrived here in the United Kingdom. My right honourable friend

Prime Minister is urging his European counterparts to get to

grips with the problem of those who have arrived with inside the

Schengen area and to take steps to make sure that they are not being

shuttled from one sense to the next and that Europe has to adopt a more

sensible policy. Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I ask my right

honourable friend about the rules for interception. For instance, what

would happen if the people on these makeshift craft refused to get on

board the Royal Naval vessel or indeed some of the people

traffickers opened fire on our sailors or Marines? On the first

point, certainly it has been our experience so far in the last year

that migrants and those that are thinking or in distress are very

much welcoming the presence of the Royal Navy and are very eager indeed

to get on board the ships that we have deployed because they know then

that they are going to be safe. These traffickers themselves appear

to take very great care not to be on these vessels, they have launched by

those who are being smuggled. But where they can be identified, and

this is where the monitoring and surveillance can really assist, or

they can be identified then they can be and charged and prosecuted as

indeed they now are being in some parts of Turkey. Can I welcome this

deployment as he knows 1 million migrants have entered the EU last

year, 885,000 burglaries and Europol told us last week that 90% of those

who have entered have come as a result of a assistance from criminal

gangs will stop we are in this place because of the failure of the U and

in particular contexts to deal with these gangs properly will stop or

has been no alternative to the business model that he has described

that the job lawyers are adopting. Does he agree with me that the

critical country year is Turkey, and the issue is to stop the boats

leaving in the first place, and what is key to that is giving Turkey the

resources and the EU promised of the 3 million to get them to assist with

this difficult problem? I do agree with almost all of that. It's

important that the European Union follows through on its commitment of

financial help to Turkey. It is important that we build up the

capacity of the Turkish Coast Guard, and I hope this appointment will

build up a picture of the gas deployment will build up a picture

of the intelligence that the Turkish Coast Guard needs of every concert

to intercept these vessels before they have left Turkish water, then

they can be returned to Turkey and that will be the clearest possible

signal to those who are paying large sums of money that this journey will

be futile and they can be discouraged from making it. Is my

right honourable friend satisfied that Turkey is doing enough at the

moment to help itself Woods there are tens of thousands of plastic

beanies being imported by Turkey from China to allow this trade to

continue, and similarly there are funny life jackets being sold in

Izmir. Why isn't the Turkish government doing something about

this? Of course the biggest government can do more -- of course

the Turkish government can do more, but so can other government in

Greece, so can the Greek government. There is a lack of capacity in both

Greece and Turkey to deal with what is now migration on a really

substantial scale. We all need to help here. The European Union needs

to get a grip of its migration policy, Turkey will need help, but

it still needs to be more robust in dealing with these migration issues

and we have decided as a government with the largest navy in Europe,

that we also should be helping where we can. I welcome this employment

and wish the ships and crew all the best, but that I ask the Secretary

of State with the legal status is of immigrants if they are picked up by

the ship particularly if they claim asylum because this was an issue

which we face when we were in office in terms of operation off the coast

of Somalia? The legal position is they cannot claim asylum on board if

it is not an UK territorial waters. It is not as easy as the honourable

gentleman might ink. But we are working with other governments to

develop a policy that will ensure those who are picked up in

international waters can be returned to Turkey, and present the position

is if they are picked up in Turkish waters by the Turkish Coast Guard

then obviously they can be taken back to Turkey. As I have said will

stop currently if they are picked up an international waters and the

boundary the air of Coors is, legs and indeed -- of course complex and

disputed in the islands of the Eastern Aegean Sea, if there picked

up in Greek or international waters at the moment they will be taken to

a place of safety increased. -- increases.

There is the capacity for Turkey to do this on their own, how can we be

sure this is not a revolving door of migrants who are actually being

taken back to Turkey, allowed to stay there a while and then back

again onto both and trying their luck several times? What assurance

can we get that won't be recurring? I think the best assurance I can get

my honourable friend is that we are determined to try to help Turkey

break this business model by ensuring those who smuggle, those

who think women or unaccompanied children out on insecure boats onto

what is maybe a short but very dangerous sea crossing, that they

can be identified, will be charged and price you did through the

Turkish gas prosecuted through the Turkish courts and we can even

surely therefore discourage the flow from the beginning. In 2014 we

failed to finance properly to the Frontex operations, there is it some

other lack of strategy and urgency. The deployment was announced two

months ago and I'm not clear what they're doing which we have not

announced before but on the very specific point can I invite the

Secretary of State to put in writing his understanding about the leading

position of anybody picked up by our ship because quite frankly my

understanding is closer to a member of North there am then the system he

has just enunciated. As far as the deployment is

concerned, it was announced last night following the agreement with

the Secretary-General reached between Nato, Greece and Turkey. She

is not right on that. It is not the aim of the beta pick-up large

numbers of migrants. She will be further offshore than that. As I

say, the object is that she will be able to deploy her helicopter and

help with the rest of the Nato standing group, help the Turkish and

Greek coast guards and the Frontex operation. Help them build up a

proper picture of where they are setting off from and help them be

intersected before they get out into international waters. I'm happy to

write to her about the precise legal point that she raises. I visited the

point of embarkation and arrival and spoke to migrants and refugees, I

found them extremely well informed into respond to clear signals that

government give them, the migrants I spoke to under the strong impression

that there are truly unlikely to be turned around in the Mediterranean

and returned it to Turkey. The spirit of the migrants I spoke to,

surely my honourable friend will agree with me it is essential that

Europe intercepts as much as possible and return them to Turkey.

It will be heard by migrants, refugees and people smugglers, they

will take note. It is the only sure way to deter the trend. I agree with

my honourable friend. The signals that are picked up very quickly and

very clearly by large numbers of young men who are further down the

chain in Pakistan, Afghanistan or indeed in Iraq. As we have seen over

the Libyan coast line, further south in Africa itself. What has not

happened so far is that there has not been any policy of returns. No

one has actually been sent back. And we need to start with those who are

intercepted in Turkish waters and get them sent back to Turkey. We

start to stem the flow that way. On Friday at the pleasure of meeting

with oasis in Cardiff in my own constituency, in a group supporting

the people making those hazardous journeys. I also met with the

coordinator who raise concerns with me about... Also the driving factors

who are causing people to make these attorneys. Is he satisfied that

there is enough global attention being played to those issues as well

as Syria and Iraq was light the honourable member is right. When I

visited there last summer, just a few weeks after she had begun

operations in the Mediterranean Girardi picked up some 20 - 25

different migrants from East Africa and West Africa. It is late is

important to help tackle this problem much further back outsourced

and do what we can to stabilize these regions to grow their

economies and to give young man every incentive to stay behind them

build a life that, rather than to set out on these very hazardous

journeys. We are contributing substantially to development in

Africa, both on the east and West. We have latterly announced he's

keeping announcements to serve Saddam and...

Can ask the Secretary of State whether the capability exists on the

Royal Naval ship to gather evidence particularly about the seaworthiness

of the boats and statements from many people were picked up, so that

those can be used in future prosecutions to tackle these

criminal grounds of trafficking? Yes, the other units deployed are

well able to gather the information that my horrible friend refers to --

honourable. The key is that it needs to be brought together brought to

the attention of the Turkish authorities so they can start to

bear down more on these particular operations and to know the

masterminds behind these criminal things. And to get, to start to

reduce the flow. I appreciate it is going to be on an observation

mission, and deterrent mission. Can I ask the Secretary of State what

personnel will be there from Home Office and what training will be

given to the staff in relation to training to work with vulnerable

children, isolated children and vulnerable adults who may well be

picked up and we don't want them to return to the hands of traffickers.

Those deployed on the post, do have the training. This ship is a 16,000

tonne ship and is going to operate in deeper waters, to the west of

there, it is less likely that man's Bay will be picking up large numbers

of migrants. It is the helicopter that will be identifying those boats

in distress much closer to the shore and working closely with the two

respective Coast Guard. BEV enable force concentration too concentrates

on Somalia policy, but it says that provide support to other missions,

why have they not been able to reach this without Nato support and when

does he expect that the EU will expand to the point that it is

capable of deploying British naval power without Nato? The maritime

standing group which operates in the Eastern Mediterranean, it was a

logical group to dope boys to be edgy and and happens to comprise as

well a Greek and a turkey ship. -- at GMC. That is important when

working in Aegean waters. As well as the Canadian, German and a tying

vessel. It is the Nato group in this instance that was ideally placed. As

he says, the EU Naval force commanded from North word is bearing

down on piracy in Africa. It has been a successful mission. It is an

EU mission, to enable the pirates themselves to be prosecuted in third

countries, you need the legal power available to the European Union,

that would not be available to Nato. Another illustration of how it is

useful to be members of both the European Union and of the alliance.

I welcome this announcement by the Defense Secretary. Can I ask him

whether he foresees the need to have additional deployments of Royal Navy

ships in the Mediterranean to assist those that are are ready there,

including the border force cutters. In respect of those two cutters,

what assessment has been made on the impact of policemen at our own

waters as well, which is obviously up equal importance of people living

in the United Kingdom? We will keep our deployment under review, we have

Mounts Bay now and the three border force cutters in the Aegean Sea, we

have HMS enterprise and the Iranians see helping to police the route

between Libya and Sicily. We are able to do that and still fulfill

our understanding commitments that he may be referring to, both in the

balls and in home waters. The border force cutters have the assistance of

military personnel on board, supplementing the border force. And

indeed they have at force protection as well. Chancellor Merkel's

announcement that the borders are open and everyone was welcome,

usually compounded the migration factor by creating a compounding...

What EU laws have allowed him to make the decision in the first place

which ultimately cost people their lives. The German canceler is in

Brussels today engaging with my right honourable friend the Prime

Minister in a search for better control of migration policy. So far

as the legal basis for what is happening inside Europe at the

moment, that is the Schengen area, which we are not a part of. We still

retained until Beuran borders. That does not absolve us of the

responsibility, the humanitarian responsibility to help where we can.

That is not... We are one of the largest countries in Europe and we

continued on the European countries to get some grub of the migration

crisis. -- grip. With more refugees being sent back to Turkey, I must

ask the Secretary of State again, questions prose by my right

honourable friend, which is what protection is in place for the

refugees going back to Turkey? They won't be sent back to Syria, is the

center you stay confident that Turkey is a country where refugees

can safely be returned to? We certainly abide by our international

obligations under the refugee convention, which means that we

could not return any individual to a country where they might be in

danger of persecution or inhuman treatment. That is why I said, those

picked up in international waters or in Greek waters will not be returned

to Turkey. In the first instance, there are discussions going on with

the Turkish government to be sure that anybody who is returned to

Turkey, from outside Turkish waters, can be dealt with safely. In

associating myself with the tribute being paid to Royal Navy, Royal

Marines and border force personnel, with the Secretary of State agree

that it is not just those people to be thinking, but also their loved

and families making sure that the separation is as short as possible.

What other support to read about on the policing and intelligence front?

-- can we. My honourable friend is right, he is right to draw our

attention to the hidden heroes, the families who stand behind our

service men and women. And of course who cannot know because it is the

nature of service life, they cannot know how these unexpected

deployments are likely to arise and quite often it will not know just

how long they are expected to last. As far as one intelligence, there is

increasing cooperation with counterterrorism and intelligence

sharing with the authorities in Turkey. Turkey itself has been

subject to terrorist attacks from Daesh and has every interest in

cooperating with us. My right honourable friend has put many

questions on the table on the situation off the coast of Turkey,

it is also been pointed out that there is a migration challenge from

north Africa cross the Mediterranean. Can you say what

steps the Italian naval forces and Coast Guard are taking to enhance

their ability to intercept refugees. He is right to draw our attention to

the other route which opened up significantly last summer and is

beginning to open up again as the sees moderate. It is a longer route

and a much more dangerous route. In answer to the specific point, yes,

the Italians are bearing the front of the naval effort on that side of

Sicily, they are there with the ships and committed to develop the

reception centers and the processing of those migrants who were rescued

and taken to Sicily. With my routable friend agree with me that

this Royal Naval deployment shows the importance of the type 26 global

combat ship programme, not least because these forgetful have the

flexibility to embark and play a really important role in future

humanitarian efforts, not least of course because David Brown gear

systems in my constituency, which he has visited are in the supply chain?

I recall my visit to David Brown and seeing the gearing systems already

being designed and produced. He is right about the usefulness of the

forthcoming type 26 forgets. What is a important above all is the ability

of the ship to carry a helicopter. That is what the Mounts Bay will

bring to this particular operation, I note his point in my respect to

the future development with the type 26 design. I recently spent a day...

To learn more about the crucial work of the Royal Navy and the excellent

work of our Armed Forces. In my right honourable friend outlined the

work and the role of the Royal Navy, today, to help tackle the migration

crisis? The Royal Navy has been engaged on the Bolivian route last

summer, they were first on the scene and rest it several thousand

migrants and help them be resettled in Italy. HMS Enterprises station

there now. They are continuing that particular task, she rescued around

100 migrants yesterday. In the Aegean Sea, Mounts Bay is on

station, west of kiosk. I imagine it will not be too long before the

helicopter is involved in physically saving lives as the Royal Navy has

done already and has done for centuries. The Royal Navy deployment

will turn up the heat on the traffickers and help keep migrants

and asylum seekers say. Does my right honourable friend agree with

me that our ability to take the steps underscores why it is right to

increase defense spending each year of this Parliament? Yes, it does.

The Royal Navy itself has been the biggest beneficiary of the increase

in defense spending that my routable friend announced in his July budget

in which we more details up in the strategic Defense review. It is

worth the House noting that defense expenditure of will start to rise

again in three weeks' time, the first time for six years and then

we'll go on rising every year of this Parliament because we are

putting the public finances in order from what we inherited and as we are

running a strong economy. A small village on the Greek border has

thousands of stranded refugees, it has been reported that a young boy

has been killed after he accidentally electrocuted himself at

the camp. The saving human cost of this kind is too high and that it

clearly shows that more needs to be done to tackle this problem, simply

by deploying ships. Rarely, lives have been lost already, thousands

have drowned in the Mediterranean last year. Several hundred have

drowned already this winter. I hope the honourable Lady would not

decline the contribution that we would make, the Royal Navy saved

lives last year and will be saving lives throughout this operation this

year. Thank you Mr Speaker, I take my honourable friend for and coming

to talk to us in person. It is an interesting case between the

European Union and Nato, that Nato manages to go on and save lives in a

problem for which of the EU at least has to take a large share of the

blame because it exacerbated by the consequences of Chancellor Merkel's

decision. It was Nato, actually they're doing things. Meeting with

all the ministers does nothing... My honourable friend's views on this

fairly well known -- views are fairly well known. To me, it does

not really, in the end matter under who offers this mission is

organized. The European Union mission is there between Libya

and... This happens to be a Nato mission. What is more important that

the mission takes place, that we do get involved and save lives, under

whoever it is. Gale does my right honourable friend... The fact that

Nato has been called upon to detect the Greek border is evidence that it

is incapable of securing its own borders. People will be well advised

to bear this in mind when they both and the referendum on the 23rd of

June. My honourable friend may not agree on everything that people have

to bear in mind when it comes to the referendum. Both Greece and Turkey

are members of Nato. And that is why I think this mission has a greater

chance of success under Nato auspices. I hope other countries

will join it. I hope despite what my honourable friend said earlier that

there will be a successful outcome to the discussions in Brussels

today. And that the union will rise to the challenge of coping with what

is the quite extraordinary migration crisis. Over the last few months I

have been meeting with Marines and serviceman on ships, men and women

who have been involved in the rescue was, some of the tales they tell me

are heartbreaking. They bring their professionalism to this deployment.

Would the Minister agree with me that it is vital to break this link

between being smuggled into dangerous sea and being resettled

and it is vital in smashing the business that these criminal gangs

profit from? I agree with him. There are clearly people smugglers and

Turkey you are making huge amounts of money from his operation and have

no care at all as to whether they push these people off into these

unstable boats and do not care if they will make it safely to the

Greek islands that they are selling to. The sooner we can start to

disrupt this particular evil trade, the better. Order! Point of order.

Last week the new health accounts programme was announced, what is

interesting is that seven of the tenor in the South, none in the

Midlands, I wanted to find out whether the organizations in West

Midlands have done it and if not why not. I has images in them for the

information they refuse to give me a list of who bid for the programme

and refuse to tell me the bases and which the bits have been allocated.

The city could -- they told me it contained sensitive information. I

did not want the names, just the areas. I got the same ridiculous

reply to each of my request. Saying that the department does not hold

the information. Frankly, I think that is just unbelievable. I do not

think any sensible person could believe that answer for a minute.

First, Mr Speaker, is the order for the department to provide frankly

incredible answers like that? Second, why do the Department of

Health and I refuse to answer, routinely, about lots of different

NHS issues saying that it has nothing to do with them. It is it in

order for ministers to invite responses to members questions and

it is it in order for government departments and public areas to

provide this basic information? I am very grateful for the honourable

gentleman for his point of order. As you know the chair is not

responsible for the content of ministerial answers. Though there is

a general understanding in this place that ministers answers should

be both timely and substantive. If the honourable judgment is

dissatisfied with the core city of the replies he receives are a few

judges that he has received no answer at all, the best recourse

available to the honourable gentleman is to approach the

Procedure Committee of which the chairman, who happily by serendipity

or... Ism up -- is present to hear him or not, I hope the conversation

between them will be fruitful. Any observation I make them is that he

and I were at university together over 30 years ago, he was a very

persistent woodpecker then and nothing has happened in the

intervening three decades that has caused me to revise my opinion. I

think if people for making the one ignoring the honourable gentleman,

they are probably in for something of a rude shock because he does not

give up, he tends to go on and on... LAUGHTER

And if necessary, on. We will leave it there for today if there are no

further points I hope the honourable gentleman's Pallett has been

satisfied for today. Crime bill, second reading. To move the

secondary bill I call the secretary of state for home department. Teresa

made. -- Theresa May. I back to be... Is honourable members of this

House are aware, since 2010, the government has implemented the most

radical programme of police reform in decades. That programme is

bringing about real and substantial change and has made policing more

accountable, more efficient and more effective. At the same time, we have

ensured that policing plays its part in helping to get this country's

finances back on track. We reduce police budget, saving ?1.5 billion

in cash terms, from 20 ten to 2016 and crime has fallen. To date I met

down more than a quarter since 2010 according to the survey for England

and walls. The task of police reform is not yet been missed. Last autumn,

to the spending review we protected police pending intro terms over the

course of this Parliament, what the police sector is taken into account.

No one should be under the idea that this settlement allows police force

is to ease off. Over the course of this Parliament, we must continue to

apply the lessons of the past five and a half years and ensure that

policing cannot does respond to the challenges of today, but the

challenges of tomorrow. -- challenges. Crime has fallen, but it

is still too high. The public rightly expects the highest of

standards and integrity, and professionalism on the police. The

challenges ahead are complex and difficult. The growing threats from

terrorism, the changing minutes of serious organized crime, fraud and

cyber crime are being increasing -- and the increasing role of

technology. We have seen a number of people increasing to have the

confidence to report child sexual abuse and other crimes such as

domestic abuse and sexual violence. She was talking him him and about

the cyber crime, she has made claims about crime numbers falling, does

she not accept the crime is changing, I have answer to that sake

even with the thousand cases a week of... 70% is from Daesh, huge

amounts of change in the online demo activity, was she except that it may

be changing and not falling. The figures from independent crime

survey show that crime has fallen by more than a quarter since 2010.

Crime is indeed changing, which is precisely why we have set up the

national cyber crime unit inside the new National Crime Agency, which was

formed over the last five and a half years. He quotes the figures of the

1000 pieces of Internet material, that is slightly different of an

issue, that is in reference to the number of pieces that on the

Internet that are not being taken on average every week by the

counterterrorism referral unit. People number of the public and

others are able to refer pieces of material to that police and we have

a very good relationship there, please work with the companies to

take the material down, he is right, the quantity of that material being

taken down, a lot of it will relate to Daesh, it is significant. And

that is one of the reasons why we have not only worked to have them

here in the UK, but we have worked with our European partners to ensure

that there is a European comparable body which is being set up which is

also working to take down terrorist and extremist material from the

Internet. I will give way. I think is suggested for giving away, she

mixed... I am sure she is aware of that Children's Society campaign to

the several constituents of mine have written about this and ask

whether I could raise the issue of whether this goal of this bill can

address this issue. In the use of drug and alcohol among teenagers and

the asked for more powers from police to intervene and stop sexual

exploitation of vulnerable 16 and 17-year-olds, three drugs, drinks

and also for a newer offense to those who use drugs and alcohol to

be brought forward. As the right honourable Lady think that is a

possibility? The honourable gentleman has raised a serious issue

which is about the exploitation of those who are perhaps above the age

of consent and therefore it raises different issues for the police and

the policing of those crimes. However, I think the police have the

powers available today, I am sure this is an issue that will be raised

during the course of debate about this bill. What I would say, he is

right to point out that of course when we talk about sexual

exploitation, it is not just potentially younger children who are

subject to it. But teenagers of the agency referred to as well. If

policing is to successfully meet the challenges it faces over the next

five years the most 22 reform police in, new capabilities and higher

levels of rationalism and intelligence. Let me turn now to the

provisions given in the bill. Many in this house with both excellent

examples of collaboration between the emergency services in different

parts of the country. Each of the emergency services has their own

primary set of responsibilities, there is clearly scope to unlock the

benefits it can be derived from closer working, including reducing

costs. For example, police and fire rescue services have integrated most

of their back-office functions and establish a single shared

headquarters by 2018, delivering savings of nearly ?1.5 million a

year and improving quality of service to the public. Other

examples... I will give way. Very grateful to the Honorable lady,

but with the joined up thinking there are some huge opportunities as

they resort to the devolution agenda in course of places like greater

Manchester where the police and crime Commissioner and the mayor,

and the fire authority are all coterminous on these boundaries

there is an opportunity to join up the services as a single unit. But

in other devolved areas, it then deprives the areas for having those

shared services the way Manchester will develop. First of all, the he

is right about greater Manchester they have taken a number of steps

and greater minutes Chester -- Manchester. They can respond to

cardiac arrest cases in the region there was also... Police and fire

rescue services are coming together so they are showing a real success

on the ground that the collaboration to bring it very effective change

for people. He is right that factor is an issue in the evolution deals.

These crime commissioners should be involved in the devolution deals of

the go-ahead but of course we are doing in the bill, is enabling these

crime commissioners to have that collaboration with the fire

services. It is something that local areas will see what suits them. Of

the benefits we've seen biking reader Minister can be seen there

are other examples for example in many other places putting this

collaboration into practice under the leadership of call police of

crime commissioners. I thank her for giving way and I'm quite grateful

for her mentioning Hampshire before I did. Hoping for the continuing

collaboration. I'm sure she is aware of the H three project which is

really a genuine trailblazer in this area. The partners in that report

already better progress. She embarks on this legislation. I should

respond that the honourable gentleman is the apple of my eye

when he says things like that. LAUGHTER I have to say to my

honourable friend of course he hasn't put into practice what he

says he wishes to do, but going back to the issue of Hampshire Hampshire

is a very good example of the collaboration of working well my

right honourable friend says he has visited Hampshire he is visited

Winchester, these are all innovative ideas which provide the services to

people. I commend Hampshire and other parts of the country... .

Would you agree with me that collaboration in the operations play

takes place, many my constituencies during the Somerset slides, have

written to me and talk to me about the importance of the emergency

services working in tandem. I think that is the best way to ensure that

the honourable committee get the help they need. Yes my friend has

made a very important point. When a merchant excuse it is important that

these three services be called and working together. That is when the

government did a great deal of work under the heading of ... To make

sure during that emergency response all three were able to work

together. But in relation to these issues the national picture remains

patchy. It should not be the exception, and that is why I

mentioned earlier in response to the Honorable Benjamin's intervention,

the response of this bill it would help collaborate and drive closer

working together across the country where it would include efficiency

and effectiveness. In terms of the fire rescue services it would be a

compelling case to take cooperation a step further. With collaboration,

it was strengthened democratic oversight. Part of the bill defines

the fire rescue take responsibility... . Thank you my

honourable friend I knew you would except the most challenging and

terms of pleasers as Northern Ireland. I know she is aware of the

fantastic steps being taken in northern Ireland with the police and

the fire authority. Could we not learn in this house from the

consternation of northern Ireland has made and trained his? There are

of course policing challenges in Northern Ireland, but it is right

that they and fire rescue services were together that is a very good

example. Going back to the last intervention from my right

honourable friend referred to the flooding in Somerset. In in fact

that is how collaboration should work. Over the past three years, PC

sees they have proper look to shoot... Alongside driving reform

and innovation, and finding fight me money for the taxpayer a long time

to judge new candidates on their proposals. Through the ballot box. I

believe it is now time... I give right way to the it is time to

extend the benefits of the fire service word help the economy and

effectiveness of public safety to do so I give way to my right honourable

gentleman. Most grateful to the home Secretary for giving way. She is

altered forever the police demanded our country. This is one of the

examples. But that she share my concern for the number of candidates

who are applying for jobs as chief constables? Have supposed of two

fossils advertised in the last couple of years only one candidate

has come forward for each of those jobs. The deputy has got the top job

they all excellent candidates, but it is a worry isn't it that certain

people are replying at that very high level. It is right to raise

this issue, and with the national police chief counsel is an issue, it

is not a few number of people it is one of those things in policing the

tender work out who they think is going to get the job. Very often

they don't apply if they think someone is going to get it. That has

been a practice over the years, but we have seen a number of cases where

single applicants it is not mandatory -- mandatory Bible give up

way one more time. I think they will do a remarkable job, but can she

explain to me why the colleagues had to do with cuts of the police force

over 25% of budget compared to some where like Suri which is lost to

tenant or 4%? Can I also commend the chief honourable Constable in that

area and my honourable friend of the work in particular with the did with

gangs with the whole office for a number of years will suck and I say

to the honourable gentleman that once again faced seemed to be

incapable of rep agonising recognising the settlement we've

given them. There's a there is a settlement returning to the issue of

collaboration with emergency services, where local cases may

detect us one step further by integrating the senior management

team of the police force and the fire services. The single-employer

model would help the bottle up. I should stress under this reform the

police and firefighters will continue to remain distinct and

separate as set out in the law or be supported by increasing me with HR,

ICT finance Fleet management, and other support services. In London it

we tend to abolish the fire abolished fire authority in bringing

in the fire brigade by the Commissioner under the direct

response of the mayor. These reforms to the arrangements in London, are

supported by all the key bodies including the authority itself. Mr

Speaker, the vast majority of police officers and the staff discharge

their duties with integrity and professionalism upholding the best

traditions of policing in this country. Where the actions of the

minority fall short of the high standards the public is entitled to

expect, the need to be arranged in conduct in question to be properly

looked into any matter resolved in a timely importunate manner. In the

last Parliament, we took steps to police integrity and. That

discipline committees are held in public police officers who are

dismissed are now struck off on a register so they cannot rejoin

another force. Where corruption is Sunni bald, officers can be charged

for a previous offence. If the Honorable or judgement will still

forgive me he may seek to catch my eye again there are shortcomings in

the current system there is complaining to complete his police

they are saying they're not satisfied with how complaints are

handled. The current arrangement with the Public and police alike has

been too complex, too adversarial, too dried out, and lacking

sufficient independence on the police. So the amendments to the

bill the discipline and the complaints to the pleas it'll make

it more transparent or robust. I give way to him. If she is

concerned, as I am about the length of delay to the discipline he read

process around the failings of that case, what will the bill do to speed

up and increase the transparency of cases like that? The honourable

gentleman is right to raise issues when that case happened in the way

it was handled. I understand the reasons you ask that tonight and the

interaction between ICT these are challenges that I do think we need

to consider very carefully to make sure that the proper. It appears to

be dragged out for a significant amount of time that I genuinely

issues sometimes in request and I used the investigation would have to

be properly dealt with by now everyone was concerned on that case

that he is referred to. He is right to raise that concern in this house.

In part two of the bill, we are building on reforms in relation to

police complaints and the systems, much we can strip away much of the

system's theocracy, remove the system for handling complaints, by

replacing five avenues of appeal with a single review of the

complaint the police will be given a new duty to work with a

proportionate manner while also having greater flexibility having a

duty but also injecting greater independence into the system by

strengthening Pete cc in the appellate body helping with chief

constables. It will also be open to Pete cc the other complaints process

including the recording of complaints and keeping complaints

informed of progress. The bill also creates a system for super

complaints. These are complaints which we brought by organizations or

charity or a busybody -- advocacy body. This will help cause issues to

be inspected by the College of policing as appropriate. Part two

will also strengthen the protection of police whistle-blowers. While

protecting their identity they will help the confidence to come forward

without jeopardising their own careers. It will also enhance public

confidence including that the distal interaction of officers will be

continued after they've been retired. Taken together, these forms

work... In part to the bill also provides provisions to increase the

powers of independent IT seat seat. The body charge we did perform is

organised in such a way as to quickly and professionally and

effectively discharge its enhanced role. Following an independent role,

on recent changes to become an IP cc, I've concluded that the existing

model with having commissioners having an operational job, it is not

at the time in the IP cc... Any more streamlined from a to the public,...

The reformed organisation, will be headed by Director General and

appointed by her Majesty the Queen the director will also have

influence on other cases and the most serious and sensitive

allegations including involving police. Bill be appointed by the

home Secretary which will have the overall running of the organisation.

We cannot continue with the police commission. I should add to the IP

cc is supportive up for need of reform and I'm grateful for the

input and cooperation I broadly welcome what the secretary

has presented in terms of the police complaints. One of the complaints I

have from constituents of the length of time in which could take in

dealing with a very simple cases. In terms of constituents than rather

than interact I propose the speed of over half of a different track for

more complex cases than simple cases? I think it is important that

all cases are dealt with in a timely a fashion as possible. What we are

proposing though, is that by beating of the ability of that local

complaint procedure, to deal with what you might see is simple local

complaint, it may very well be that people are able to get a better

response from that local complaint process rather than feeling things

have to be put through to the IP PC. This will have a focus with

sensitive cases honestly. Also I think the restructuring will help in

terms of the smoothing the process by which cases are actually looked

at, within will be the OPC in the future. The second reading is not

the time to go into detail. Could you ask her advisers to talk to the

IP PC about why they are saying this complaint should be referred back to

the Department of special standards. This is a complaint about

their behaviour in the first place. My Honorable friend raises a case

which I know from the discussions we have had in the correspondence we

have had, he has taken very seriously and acted on for sometime

now. I recognise the issue that he has raised. Obviously there are

questions around this case which relate not just to the IP cc and the

police but that also relate to the CPS. I know he is taking this up

with him. I will reflect on the comments and point which has made.

Mr Speaker I will go to part three of the bill. For the first time will

create a list of core police powers, which will only be exercised by

warranted exercises. Such as Powers of arrest and search. These powers

will be owners reserve conferred on police officers by member of the

staff or volunteer, provided they stupid little more incapable of

carrying it out and receive the appropriate training. This will

ensure that police officers have applicability in freedom make use of

their skills and training, whether they're warranted officers for

police staff volunteers. Volunteers have much to offer policing. Over

16,000 special constables regularly get up their time to help keep our

communities safe. But to use those with special skills in either IT or

forensic counselling who are prepared to volunteer their time but

don't want to become a special constable, and it simply makes no

sense that the police can lack the ability to confer on a volunteer and

now to set of powers rather than to a particular role. The existing law

also puts unnecessary constraints on the chief officer with the chief

officer which is to maximise the operation and effectiveness of

police staff. This will remove these barriers and strengthen the role of

the officers. This confers on chief officers the ability to designate

police staff and volunteers with those policing powers appropriate to

their role. I am committed to free assuring that the police have need

to protect the public and to prevent to protect an event investigate

chemical defenses. But we should continue to keep the coercive powers

of the state under regular review, to ensure the rights of the

individual are properly balanced against the need to keep our

communities safe. Into instances, what may I will make a little more

progress on this issue. Into instances precharge bail and

undergoing health act. We need to take action to make sure we get that

balance right. Part four of the bill therefore contains a number of

important reforms to police powers. In the case of precharge bill, it is

apparent the significant number of individuals that sent -- spent an

alarm was up time on bail only to end up not being charged or charged

found not guilty. Of course police and prosecution need time to

assemble and test the evidence particularly in complex cases before

coming to a decision. We need to recognise the stress cause of people

are under investigation for long periods and the disruption to their

lives when they are subject to onerous bail conditions. I will give

what element Clause 53 for 17-year-olds in the recognition of

children in detention. There's also a strong argument for hazard

assessments for adults who have been content convicted of sexual assaults

against 16 and 17-year-olds. They are actually children in law. Would

you give some consideration to this proposal? The Honorable Lady raises

an interesting point. It is possible the age of the individual can be

used as an aggravating factor in relation to dealing with the

offence. Therefore it can be taken into account or talking about

someone 16 or 17. I'll make a few more comments. Before I get to the

issue of mental health... On relation to the bill proposals, to

address the legitimate concerns about the current arrangement, the

bill uses or introduces a number of safeguards. First the sunset we

released without bail conditions attached. Second when it is

necessary to release on bail this will commence on 28 days. Third this

initial period needs to be extended, it can only be extended up to three

months with the authority of the supreme tendon. For a maximum of

three months and must be authorised by magistrate Court. The bill

provides special procedures for complex cases, such as those

investigated by the Serious Fraud Office. The requirements for long

periods of precharge Bale and any conditions attached to that they'll

are subject to judicial approval. This is clearly establishing primary

legislation. Mr Speaker the government is committed to ensuring

better outcomes for people with mental health problems. Those who

present a danger to themselves or others need rapid support and care

for mental health professionals. They don't need locking up in a cell

for up to 70 to ours. Over the last couple of years, significant strides

have been made in reducing the instances where police cells are use

for safety. But we must do more. The mental health that will ensure that

police cells will never be used as a place of safety for children and

those under 18. There will only be used in extreme circumstances in the

case of adults. I will give way. I command my friend for all the right

work she has done over the years. Can we as to rethink mental illness

and discuss some of the continuing concerns around section 135 and 136?

The Home Secretary has made some fantastic strides in bringing forth

this proposed legislation today. Model friend who has a fine record

of campaigning on these issues is right to have raised this and refer

to this. The groups that he is mentioned, the organizations he

mentioned to meet with ministers on a regular basis on crisis care. I'm

also happy to look at the issue of the concerns that they are raising.

I hope that what we have here in the bill will give some way to dealing

with some of the continuing concerns that have been made. Notwithstanding

the work that we have done over the last few years in improving the

response to people with mental health, at a point of mental health

crisis and improving that response by the police. I give way. And I

welcome some of the changes she's outlining. But one area I think it's

an issue if the ID of advocacy under section 135 and 136. For the Mental

Health Act. Those individuals detained are not allowed to have

advocates. I think this would strengthen some of the reform she's

putting in this bill. The honourable gentleman has made an interesting

point. Obviously we were trying to do in the bill and in the work we

have done with the triage pilots for example, and the provision of extra

mental health provisions, and various parts of the country, is to

reduce the need for advocacy by reducing the amount of time that

people can spend in a police cell. Indeed the bill also reduces the

maximum period of detention, for the purposes of mental health from 70 to

hours to 24 hours and a possibility of extension to 36 hours if the

medical front just there decides it is clinically necessary. In parallel

we are making up to ?15 million available in the coming year to

improve the conditions of health safety. Element thank you for giving

way. Would you join me in commending the police who have made great

strides in the use of self 136 over the past year? Element would she

join me with also saying the police forces me to collect data on how

long people aren't being detained with in police vans is what we don't

want to see substitution of police cells for police vans. She has

raised an important point. When you are legislating and areas you have

to consider -- consider what the intended consequences might be. Of

course the whole point of the street triage pilots taking place is the

availability of advice from mental health care professionals to the

police in the circumstances, is to ensure that somebody could be taken

to his place of safety, not a place of safety that is a police cell, and

not deciding that a ban is an appropriate place to hold people.

She's certainly right to do something that we should look at to

make sure that we are not inadvertently creating another

problem. Despite what I said earlier I think I do need to make some more

progress. LAUGHTER If I may come onto another subject

which is the question of firearms. Mr Speaker this coming Sunday will

mark 20 years since the appalling murder of 16 children and teach

Adele Nehring primary school. I'm sure the whole house was to join me

in sending our deepest sympathy to those who lost loved ones and to the

survivors of that terrible day. We also reminded the importance of

firearms legislation to prevent such events from happening again. In this

country we have some of the toughest controls on firearms in the world.

It is no coincidence of the number of homicides and other crimes

involving firearms are relatively low. We must remain vigilant. There

are loopholes that can be exploited and we must act to plug the gaps.

The revisions in part six of the bill are directed toward that end.

After extensive consultation, the law has made recommendations to

tighten the Firearms Act. It is simply no longer sustainable. There

is uncertainty as to what constitutes an antique firearm. We

need to clarify what is clear that a firearm is subject to the Firearms

Act. The exercise of the licensing functions under the Firearms Act

also needs to be looked at. We must have this consistently applied at

all appropriate checks taken when considering someone's ability to

hold a firearm. Finally Mr Speaker, part eight of the bill, stringency

of Portsmouth financial. The effective implementation and

enforcement of financial sections is important and vital to their

success. This increases the maximum sentence of up to to seven years

imprisonment, which can be improved following a criminal conviction or

breach of faith. This extends the availability of deferred prosecution

agreements and serious crime prevention orders.

Was to finish. This part also introduces a mechanism to ensure

that UN mandated sections to be limited without delay. Before new

stations regimes come into force and help the UK complied with its

international obligations. Mr Speaker taken together this bill

will continue to government Public recommended to perform public

services. I have to say to the right honourable gentleman that I just had

to get it to his honourable friend that would not give way because as

he is the Shadow Home Secretary. She began her speech by saying that

crime has fallen as they get is important that we have clarity on

this point. The driver attention in the exchange last week was yes

please let the crime was added to the statistics that crime was like.

The NAS suggested that would be the case we have to as except that. Was

he right to say that and will crime go up with these figures are added?

The statement I made about crime following is based on the

independent crime survey of England and Wales. That shows clearly that

crime has fallen since 2010 more than a quarter. What we are doing is

recognising that there are certain types of crime that have not been

fully recorded in the past. It is not that suddenly started -- cyber

crime started in May 2000 and 15. Cyber crime was undertaken, fraud

was undertaken under the last Labour government and under subsequent

governments. What are now doing is recording this figures in ensuring

the figures are available to the public. I welcome the fact that we

are being open with people about different sorts of crime that had

been committed but were hidden under the last Labour government. Mr

Speaker, LAUGHTER I'm literally on my last sentence. This bill would

continue the government public commitment to reform public service

is not for its own sake but to deliver more cell phone, or police

forces that continue to cut crime and keep our communities safe. Hear,

hear!. Should the bill now be read a second time? Thank you Mr Speaker.

We on the side of the house what do most of the measures. We have led

calls for some of them over many years. In the last parliament I am

proud to say that the shadow health team raise public awareness for the

practice of people in mental health crisis being held in police cells.

We congratulate the Home Secretary for acting out its and she will have

our full support in doing so. She will also have our support on

measures of the bill on firearms as she has just explained, alcohol

licensing, and on child sexual application. I would urge them to

remove my Honorable friend said last week about the action published a

year ago where she published that there has not been progress. I would

encourage the government to take action quickly. In other areas such

as reform of police complaints, and accountability and police bail we

have one call to change and encouragingly there's now consensus

for it. We do not think the government has gone far enough and

as I will come on to explain the be pressing for changes in the is areas

to strengthen the bill. Let me be clear I will give way. I think the

honourable gentleman and on the theme of changes given that Labour's

First Minister alliance with them calling for pleasing to be divulged

with the honourable gentleman said his party will be tabling pleasing

to Wales. As interesting proposal but it is the view of the Labour

Party in Wales but is not the party at the UK level. We will be giving

it serious consideration. Mr Speaker let me be clear, well, as many of

the measures of this bill are and fall short of providing what our

emergency services need. It does not add up to a convincing vision from

the reform of the services or the threat we face in the country. Right

now our police and Fire Services are halfway through a decade of real

terms cuts. The Home Secretary began claiming her record as a record of

reform. The reform we are seeing is in fact the demised of a successful

neighbourhood policing model that she inherited from the previous

government. She has presided over worryingly low morale across police,

fire, and for the health's part that low morale needs to be addressed. No

one is going to be impressed by the complacent and answers the Home

Secretary gave on these points. Is she aware that the West Midlands has

lost 18% of the total compared to Thames Valley which is lost just 2%.

Is she aware of the West Midlands is going to lose more. My honourable

friend has made the point that I was going to make. Whatever they claim

on the benches opposite 36 out of the 43 police forces are facing cash

cuts in this year. All of them are facing real terms cuts. The West

Midlands has faced ?10 million in real terms. My own police force ?8

million. He needs to consider cuts to Fire Services as well. West

Midlands over the decade will see a cut of 45% in its budget. And will

effectively have. They do not know that it is the case that Fire

Services are being cut in half. It begs the question, can they be sure

that their police and fire cuts are not exposing our big cities to

unacceptable levels of risk? What assessment has been made of their

capability to deal with a major incident or a Paris style attack?

Experts in the Fire and Rescue Service would argue that their cuts

have already gone too far. The question that really begs is why

does crime continue to come down, why does he believe that is the

case? We have just had an exchange with the Home Secretary acknowledged

that on my crime is about to be added to the crime figures. What he

may know from his own constituency is a crime has been changing in

recent years. We've seen reductions in traditional volume crime,

burglary and car crime and crime has moved online. Does the Minister

understand and understand the crime has fallen. That is not representing

the real pitcher. The real picture will look very very different when

new figures are published in a couple of months' time. Could the

right honourable gentleman tell us what he was a minister in the Home

Office what did he not advocate and ensure that figures for fraud and

cyber crime were added to the crime figures? It was recommended by the

independent office of statistics so she might want to take credit for

everything but am afraid she cannot. And was independently recommended as

the last Labour government accepted independent recommendations of

statisticians so she has to. The picture will look very very

different and I would caution her against her complacent a statement

again today that crime has fallen. Crime has changed in the fact that

figures will soon show a crime has in fact doubled. I'm grateful to the

right honourable gentleman. We all accept that crime is changing. Does

he also accept the crime-fighting should also change. That one decent

talented computer programmer could achieve more against Trevor -- cyber

crime that 8000 uniformed police officers? Cyber crime, on my crime

represents the biggest challenges that we face. They will probably be

a grub but across the floor and amongst the 43 police forces they do

not yet have the capability to investigate cyber crime. That is an

issue for everybody. How they going to develop that capability as their

facing year on year of real terms cuts? I do not think that is

sustainable. He has got think as well about public safety and cuts.

We are seeing cuts to Fire Services in London, we are seeing thousands

of firefighters pumps and stations cut all over the country. Thousands

more are set to go following local government settlement that is

afflicted the biggest cuts on urban areas. The embarrassing truth for

ministers is this, if their northern powerhouse catches fire there will

be no one there to put it out. I give way. As the former chairman of

the London fire authority with the conceit that simultaneously to the

reductions that he spoke of the London fire brigade had the best

performance year in its recent history? Again I would urge members

opposite not to be so complacent. He may have seen that there was a fire

in north London around Houston in the last couple of weeks with the

London fire brigade missed their response target and there was a

vitality. -- fatality. If you look across the country we will see that

Fire Services are missing their recommended response times up and

down the country. If he believes that the cuts to blended's fire

brigade and rescue services around the country could carry on in the

way his party proposes that I think he is putting public safety at

serious risk. The government public answer the funding challenges is

greater collaboration in greater clues of volunteers. Neither are

wrong in principle but is how they are used. There are risks inherent

in both policies is done in the wrong way. They do not add up to a

convincing solution for the future of emergency services. As the prime

policing crime commissioner for Northumbria said today this bill

looks like a plan for policing on the cheap. He talked about a leaking

bucket, we've also had the tremendous floods of the last few

months in this country where Fire Services and police services have

been stretched to the limit. What happens if we get to a situation

where we have a much more widespread flooding problem in the future we

will not have the resources will be? From my own Fire Services in the

north, they said they did not have enough resources. Be drawn up to

Cumbria when the weather hit but they did not have enough resources

later. Read a Christmas about a hastily concocted plan to cut the

incident response unit. It was there to deal the dirty bomb. These cuts

are going too far. The question they got to answer was quite a simple

one. Can you give us a guarantee that there are enough resources in

place for fire and police that of a major incident or a Paris style

attack would happen in our major cities that public safety would not

be compromised? I don't think they have answered that question. Until

they do I will keep asking it. This bill looks like a plan for policing

on the cheap. I will come back to part one of the bill later. And me

go the measures we support. Part two deals with police accountability,

the hazard progress in this area but I think you'll be accepted on all

sides that there is much further to go. Historical cases stand as

testimony to the uphill struggle that ordinary people straight in

holding the police to account. Even when there is evidence of

wrongdoing. There is no sign that public confidence has improved even

when there are people that choose not to pursue the complaint. It is

not fair to police officers either. Professional status questions are

encouraged to adopt the heavy-handed approach. We agree with the

government of the system for having complaints is in need of serious

reform. We welcome clarification that all complaints should be

recorded and ending the confusion that comes up leaving that decision

up to police officers. I gave a cautious welcome to the new role for

policing crime commissioners and the new area. I have to say that it is

still early days for PC sees. I think many are yet to show that they

can hold Apple is forced to account. I think that is an open question and

the government should not put too much trust that I will materialise.

I'm sure he will share the welcome that is going to be able to carry on

misconduct charges for officers to have retired. Dusty agree with me

that it seems strange that the only penalty that seemed to be proposed

if they're found guilty of misconduct is to say to this retired

officers, you cannot come back and work in the police force. That is no

kind of penalty at all there already retired. I agree. I would

demonstrate any moment why I think the point he has just made entirely

valid. We support measures in this bill to refocus the IP cc, to rename

its event. To strengthen its independence to allow it to initiate

its own investigations to carry them out and likely than relying on

police forces. We also protect whistle-blowers. And the most

powerful proposal in the bill is the power to propose super complaints.

Bringing together groups are campaigning still for justice. There

are common threads between them all. It is this, currently the way the

system works forces them all to plough their own for oh individually

and does not allow them to join forces. The super complaint proposal

could rebalance the system in their favour. That is what I will commit

so strongly. I know the Home Secretary is still to publish the

details of how it will work but I will off-load to work with her on

this and would encourage her to allow an number of small campaign

groups to bring a complaint to gather. For instance, if the Stephen

Lawrence campaign had been able to join forces with the Daniel Morgan

campaign or at the other campaigns would be able to join forces that

history could have been very different. Our seminar we heard

things that they all have in common and it is the unacceptable levels of

collusion that the police have with the press. If this government fails

to honour the complaints that I would hope the roots of the super

complaint would at least open up another avenue to campaigners. Can I

just taken back to something that he said a few seconds ago, it is still

early days for policing crime commissioners. Yet less than a year

ago his party was arguing that they would face abolition of the Labour

government. We would go to the polls to elect a new PCC under the

country. To the exist or abolished under a label government? With the

election things have changed, we do not oppose police and crime

commissioners. I prepared to give them a chance. I'm someone who

believes in stronger accountability for the police. I think it is hard

for one individual, and elected individual, to hold the weights and

he might have an entire police force to account. Particularly when the

individual is also dealing with operational matters. I do get is the

stretch and I do not think the opposite PCC has shown itself able

to do that. Personally I would like to build a new model of the PCC and

broaden it out perhaps more to a London style model. Where there is a

broader range of people holding to place holds to a accountability.

Firstly? Never adding a layer of things it wasn't a serious complaint

the IP cc is there to deal with things independently. Of course the

PCC is working and of course that has an impact of the priorities of

the police. But I'm not setting my face against that I do say to the

government the just out throwing fire and with police and crime

commissioners has not been adequately thought through. One of

the most welcome proposals to the bill is the closing of the loophole

were officers can escape disciplinary proceedings by residing

or retiring. Clause 22 simulates the disciplinary proceedings may be

initiated up to 12 months after somebody has left the force. Can

city Home Secretary that while I was the intention this 12 month period

could be unduly restricted as my Honorable friend has said. It may

take many more years for campaigners to uncover wrongdoing. I know that

many of the Hillsboro families feel very strongly indeed about this and

get this measure would not have helped them. Why is there any time

limit at all? Wrongdoing whatever it occurred needs to be corrected. Will

they be applied including reductions to pension and entitlement in the

most serious of cases. As the campaigners want to see. Also the

reform of police bail. The current system has been criticised from both

sides. That is unfairly leaving people languishing for long periods

but also bad for people who pose more of a risk for the public it is

toothless. What is needed is a more targeted approach that is not face

research is on the liberty of people for low risk or for whose guilt is

far from proven. In cases of serious crime or terrorism. I have to say on

this the bill only does have a job. It relaxes police bail requirements

for a majority of people but it fails to bring in those tougher

conditions for those opposed a greater risk. It has been suggested

that because the threshold for extension is so low as of the

requires an officer to act diligently that the proposals may

make little difference to practice at hope that is not the case. The

big problem is the government is failed to act on suffering up the

police. The case of a man who started while on police bail and

went to Syria is a prime example of an unacceptable loophole in the

current system. We will find it truly shocking that terrorist

subsets -- suspects can walk out of the country without difficulty. I

found it astounding that the government has not moved to close

this loophole in this bill. He is right to raise this very important

point in this case one of the issues also is the ability of different

agencies to communicate immediately when passwords are to be

surrendered. Does he not agree that as well as changing the law when you

change the practice that the police inform others and this is all done

it be only when there is a terror suspect. That is what you would

expect. People are immediately placed on watch list when they are

placed on police bail. That did not happen in this case. The Prime

Minister told the Liaison Committee in the January that he would look

carefully at police bail powers. This bill does not deliver them or

close the loophole. Please no commissions are not enforce and this

bill is a major missed opportunity and we will rise the government hard

in committee to correct it. Would he do targeted police bill regime that

was for sanctions in relation to more serious offensive. The

confiscation of passports and travel documents and terrorism related

cases. Proposals on mental health are timely and much needed. Given

the levels of stress and security in 21st century living, mental health

be one of if not the greatest house challenge of the century. It is

essential that the police and criminal justice system develop

basic standards for dealing with it. We will ban the risk for police

cells of children in crisis and adults. Our concern is that with the

measures themselves but whether they could be delivered in practice. As

Shadow Health Secretary I'd revealed in the last Parliament how the

government had not honoured its commitment to parity between

physical and mental health and cut mental health parts of the NHS.

Middle health services are in crisis. Only last week, a counsellor

in my constituency contacted me to say that he'd work with

professionals for two days to help find a cure for bad for a highly

affordable young man who is close to suicide. That was last week, no beds

available anywhere in the country for head. The Royal College of

psychiatrists as pointed out that banning the use of cells does not

solve the problem of why those cells are used in the first place.

Reducing the time and for assessment does not itself guarantee that there

will be enough trained professionals to deliver the new standard in the

cognition of these changes can put professionals in a difficult

position. It cannot be combined into a bed had been identified for

someone. They could put them in a bad position of having to break the

law or not breaking the law and releasing someone who should in fact

be detained. It is therefore essential that alongside the as

built the Home Secretary and Health Secretary issued new instructions to

health service commissioners to open sufficient beds and train

professionals to deliver these welcome new commitments. Does he

agree with me to one of the emissions is that this information

is not kept nationally. We need that information at the moment. Without

that whether or not is going to meet these targets is never going to be

determined. That is the problem. Professionals find a desperate

position with their searching for a bad because of a lack of

information. The risk is that these new requirements come into law

without a plan behind them in the professionals that are needed it

could have perverse consequences in terms of putting professionals in a

very difficult position. Habit is not the case made with stately Home

Secretary much more than than ?15 million is needed if we are to

create adequate bed capacity to deal with this issue. Let me go finally

to the proposal that gives us the greatest concern. First the proposal

for a expansion a major volunteers. They were right to praise the role

of specials that we would have -- argue... As we have revealed police

forces in England are facing a decade of real terms cuts. We have

lost 18,000 offices the last Parliament and many more are set to

go in this. That is the context in which the house must consider the

proposal in this bill to extend the use of volunteers. I do not think

this house should endorse the principle that volunteers could

safely back fill the cuts, the gaps left by cuts to policing. He gives

police volunteers the ability to you CS gas and powder spray. The

fortunes should only be restricted to full-time officers. We are not

opposed to the greater use of volunteers, and should be on top of

a protected court of police officers data value rather than replace. I

give way. I just wanted to understand what you applied the same

rules to volunteer were obviously operate with the same equipment

within the Fire Services as to volunteer police officers. All

members opposite is increasing reliance on volunteers is no answer

to backfill cuts to corporate vision. Volunteers can add value.

They can extend the reach of emergency services, there no

substitute for cuts to front-line services. That potentially leave the

public at risk. He might be happy with a part-time police force or a

part-time Fire Service but I can tell him that most of my

constituents would argue that is not acceptable and we need enough

resources. For resources on the front right.

-- mental will you take this opportunity to correct with that I

can only assume is an inadvertent slur on the many thousands of people

in the part-time police force. The part-time Fire Service, the

part-time Armed Forces, who put their lives at risk and do so

because they are driven by sense of public duty. Will you take this

opportunity to remove the slur on the professionalism of all

individuals? He clearly was not listening Mr Speaker. I praised the

role of police specials and I did say there was a role for

volunteerism. I happen to believe that it is not fair to those

volunteers to put them into a position or dangerous position

without the power, without the training, without the resources to

do the job. But if he thinks that emergency services run increasingly

by volunteers is the way he wants to go, I would say I have in serious

disagreement with that on the side of the House. The most boring part

of this bill, Mr Deputy Speaker is the implications it holds to the

future of Fire And Rescue Services. Buy services have already faced

severe cuts over the last five years. They face another five years

of deep cuts at the front line services. Our worry is that this

still could make them even more vulnerable. And could even see the

Fire and Rescue Service disappearing altogether as a separate service.

There is a real concern that the proposals to put fire under the