12/04/2016 House of Commons


12/04/2016

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which of course provides and jobs. Demand has exceeded supply. We must

:00:00.:00:13.

now move on. A point of order, shall . I have made the Minister aware of

:00:14.:00:17.

my intention to make this point of order. In an answer to my written

:00:18.:00:22.

parliamentary question asking for the number of deaths that have

:00:23.:00:25.

occurred in child and adolescent mental health units since 2010, the

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Minister for community and social care said that there had been only

:00:31.:00:35.

one such death recorded by the Sea QC. However freedom of information

:00:36.:00:40.

requests have found that at least nine young people have tragically

:00:41.:00:42.

died in England while receiving inpatient care. The minister said in

:00:43.:00:53.

an interview with panorama that he did not know how many children and

:00:54.:00:58.

adolescents had died in psychiatric units in recent years. This

:00:59.:01:00.

discrepancy between the government account and the data collected by

:01:01.:01:06.

freedom of information requests raises serious questions about how

:01:07.:01:10.

deaths in psychiatric care of some of the most vulnerable people are

:01:11.:01:13.

treated, recorded, investigated, and learned from. Can I be advised as to

:01:14.:01:19.

whether there is any indication from ministers that they intend to

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clarify for the parliamentary record an accurate figure for the number of

:01:24.:01:26.

children who have tragic it did in all psychiatric inpatient setting

:01:27.:01:33.

since 2010? Important questions are raised by

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this matter, though not for me. We cannot have Question Time on the

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basis of doing it through points of order. Seeing as the Minister of

:01:43.:01:47.

State is here and is apparently willing to say some words, you will

:01:48.:01:52.

be happy to hear from him. I am very grateful. I appreciate the

:01:53.:01:58.

honourable member giving me notice of this. There were very serious

:01:59.:02:04.

questions raised by panorama last night. I have agreed to meet the

:02:05.:02:12.

lady who put in the Freedom of information request, there is a

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discrepancy and there are difficulties in definition, but the

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present situation is not acceptable. I will look to find as quickly as

:02:19.:02:21.

possible a way of correcting the record as soon as we know the

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figures and make sure that we have sorted this data problem out

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effectively for the future. I am grateful to the Minister for

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his courtesy and honour. On a personal note can I wish him very

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well on that important meeting with Bracco? She is a formidable

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character. We knew each other in university. Very formidable, I wish

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him well. We have just had questions from the

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Secretary of State and we had an excellent team of ministers but we

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did not have the Secretary of State. The Minister for Europe made the

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point that the Secretary of State is on the last leg went overseas visit.

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I thought was the Convention of this House that Parliament came first.

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And that the Secretary of State should be here and there is an

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emergency took him away from the House. Clearly, this was planned,

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and can you give any guidance to the House on whether the Secretary of

:03:21.:03:24.

State should be on overseas trip when there are scheduled questions

:03:25.:03:28.

the Department? I will take Peter, then respond.

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Things may have changed since I paid attention because it is 25 years

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since I was a minister but in my day a minister for the government spoke

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with the same authority, no matter what rank.

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Certainly the team communicate to the House as a team. That is

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undeniable. It is not within the power of the chair, the Secretary of

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State did courteously write to me to notify me that he would be absent,

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my sense is that he is not likely to be absent and anything irregular

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basis. If that were to happen it would be strongly deprecated not

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just by the chair but by members across the House. Let's hope it does

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not happen again. If there are no further points of order perhaps we

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can move onto the ten rule motion. I like to move that leave be given

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for me to bring an appeal to make it an offence to be found in possession

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of or to use certain articles or substances capable of causing injury

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or behaviour likely to lead to injury, at, or in transit towards,

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certain events, concerts, festivals, other public gatherings, and for

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connected purposes. In plain English this bill proposes to prevent

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audience members at concerts and festivals from using dangerous

:04:53.:04:55.

pyrotechnics such as flares, fireworks, and smoke bombs. Items

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like this cannot be safely used in the confines of a live music

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audience. Players can burn at up to 1600 Celsius, fireworks, even

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hotter, up to 2000 Celsius. Not to mention the danger from a

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projectile, and smoke bombs pose a risk to members with asthma or other

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such breathing difficulties. The surprise throwing off pyrotechnics

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from within a crowd can also create dangerous and distressing crowd

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disturbances. In 2014 of were 255 incidents involving flares at live

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music events. Both indoor and outdoor, ranging from festivals such

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as T in the Park, two popular city venues like extreme Academy. -- like

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Brixton Academy. I enjoy live music but nobody should be seriously

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burned as part of a fun afternoon. Nobody wants to see a panic at the

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disco or any such music event, we want to see the number of these ends

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is is down to an all-time low digs and festivals are particularly

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popular among young people. They and their parents have a right to feel

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safe in attending or sending their children there. Unfortunately this

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was not the experience of an 18-year-old girl who attended an

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Arctic monkeys concert and required three dressings to burns on her arms

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from a flair that have been thrown. Or a 17-year-old at Reading Festival

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who suffered a panic attack of that been burned by a smoke bomb. When I

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mentioned the subject of this hill to others many people outside the

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music industry was surprised that audience use pyrotechnics is not

:06:58.:07:02.

already banned. Their surprise is understandable given that such

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protection has long been afforded to football supporters by the sporting

:07:07.:07:13.

events act 1985. This made it an offence to attempt to enter a

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stadium whilst in possession of a flair, a smoke bomb, or a firework.

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The courts have taken such public endangerment very seriously and even

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those without previous criminal records have been given custodial

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sentences of one or two months and banned from foot or grounds for up

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to six years. The numbers bear this out as an effective approach. Both

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legislatively and judicially. In contrast to the 255 incidents in

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2014 at music events there were just three incidents at football grounds.

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In my capacity as chairman of the APG for music I find broad support

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for this bill throughout the industry. Live nation, one of the

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largest concert organisers and ticket riders in the UK has been

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campaigning on this subject for a significant time. As yet, without

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success. I would like to see that change sooner rather than later.

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Because these injuries and incidents are absolutely avoidable with the

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right support. The Association of Independent festivals, representing

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many popular events including the secret Garden party, the Isle of

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Wight Festival, ask for the laws support. I quote, it is the

:08:30.:08:35.

responsibility of organisers to provide a safe and enjoyable

:08:36.:08:38.

environment and the government should support this objective by

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creating a level playing field between music and sports fans. So

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concert organisers have every reason to want to protect concertgoers, but

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unfortunately with their power was limited to basically expelling

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someone from a venue, they feel toothless when it comes to deterring

:08:58.:09:01.

this kind of behaviour. Despite a behaviour to do exactly that.

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The current situation is as follows. On the ratings are banned from

:09:10.:09:23.

carrying fireworks in public places. However, an overwhelming majority of

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concerts and festivals occur on private property. There is no such

:09:28.:09:32.

regulation for flares because they are not intended for entertainment

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use at all. There is no offence for adults carrying fireworks or smoke

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bombs unless it can be proven that this is being done with intent to

:09:42.:09:45.

cause injury. Contact injuries from these articles are usually a case of

:09:46.:09:52.

boneheaded this regard for others rather than malice. It amounts to no

:09:53.:10:05.

rules or protection for those using pyrotechnics at music events. When

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an industry welcomes a law as an in central -- an essential protection,

:10:14.:10:20.

then surely Parliament must act and we would not be doing our duty if we

:10:21.:10:24.

ignored it. My right honourable friend, the Minister confirmed in a

:10:25.:10:33.

letter in March 2015 that in his view, this matter was requiring

:10:34.:10:38.

proper examination of how best to determine the misuse of these

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devices. I share this view but little progress has been made. I

:10:44.:10:53.

believe proper examination leads to the conclusion that a ban covering

:10:54.:10:59.

music events will be the best step open to us and those proposing the

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bill, I believe the time has come to take that forward. I am not by

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instinct someone who likes to ban things. I think, by and large,

:11:13.:11:18.

people should have the right to choose to take risks themselves.

:11:19.:11:30.

However, audience members have not chosen to be exposed to the dangers

:11:31.:11:35.

of flares and fireworks deployed in improper conditions and possibly by

:11:36.:11:39.

those who have no idea and are in no fit mind to use them. They have come

:11:40.:11:43.

to enjoy live music and these endangered them. To be clear, my

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bill would only apply to audience members and spectators. There has

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been a misleading report that venues and artists would not be able to use

:12:01.:12:06.

them. Stage setups would be the same as they currently are. I don't want

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to curtail the ability of trained professionals to put on a vibrant

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and striking show. I have enjoyed many a show and these can be part of

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a spectacle. I'm not sure if you are a fan of the Kings of Leon but I

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think you should ensure that nothing should ever be on fire. There is

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support from fans, professionals and colleagues in the house. This is a

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problem and there is a consensus. I am grateful to bring this issue

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before the house. The question is that the honourable member have

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leave to bring in the bill. The eyes have it. Who will bring in the bill?

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David Warburton, Steve Rotherham, Mark Pritchard, Pete Wishart, Craig

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Williams, Kevin Foster, Nigel Huddleston and myself, Sir.

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Second reading what they? Friday 22nd of April.

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We come now to the standing order, number 24 bill. I call Angela Eagle.

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I place on record my thanks to you for

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granting this debate today. Such debates are rare but the situation

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facing the steel industry cannot be categorised as anything other than

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an emergency. Today's debate provides an opportunity for the

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Secretary of State to come to this post with a comprehensive solution

:15:03.:15:09.

for the steel industry, an industry hanging by the thinnest of threads.

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Anything less from him will be an abdication of his duty. I hope he

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will take the opportunity to explain to us in more detail exactly what he

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meant. Call it what you like, or investing, part nationalisation,

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temporary public stewardship or sheltering the assets. It is clear

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that circumstances might require the government to do this. They should

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spare their ideological blushes and get on with it. It is important the

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Business Secretary hears from those who represent steel-making

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communities. They have great expertise and knowledge which I hope

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will inform the response to this crisis. Up until now this is a

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government and Secretary of State that have been found wanting. They

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have been behind rather than ahead of events. Their response to the

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biggest crisis in steel-making in a generation has been warm words but

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little effective action. There has been an ideological driven

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reluctance to get involved as the crisis has deepened. It has been a

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mixture of indifference and incompetence. Can I just say I am

:16:30.:16:37.

not going to give way as generously as I normally do because this is a

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three-hour debate and I think it is really important those members from

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steel-making communities get their chance to have their say.

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The First Minister of Wales has called for all parties to come

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together to work towards a future rather than political point scoring.

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The Right Honourable lady is very passionate on this issue as we are

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on the side of the house. It is vital we have this. Can she ensure

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the house but she and her colleagues are approaching it in that combined

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political approach between the parties to secure that future? We

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will judge this government by actions and achievements rather than

:17:30.:17:35.

words. The complete absence of a manufacturing or industrial strategy

:17:36.:17:38.

has hampered this government's ability to think strategically about

:17:39.:17:44.

what is needed. Never has it been more urgent that the Business

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Secretary does so. On the 29th of March, Tata steel announced it would

:17:48.:17:52.

sell steel-making operations in the UK and it is leaving the future of

:17:53.:17:58.

steel-making hanging by a thread and putting jobs at imminent risk. I ask

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if the shadow secretary shares my concern that on the 29th of March we

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knew about this, people going to Mumbai knew it was happening, yet

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three years ago the Prime Minister reconvened this chamber within two

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days to talk about the death of Margaret Thatcher. I think it is

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regrettable that there was not a recall of Parliament but we are

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where we are and we've got this debate thanks to you. It is

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imperative to underline the fundamental importance of this

:18:44.:18:46.

industry for our economy and for the country. Steel is a foundation

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industry. Whilst it might make up 1% of total manufacturing output that

:18:54.:19:01.

is crucial. The world leading industries, real construction, all

:19:02.:19:05.

depend on a strong and sustainable domestic steel industry. The

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manufacturing sector already faces tough times. The ONS figures show a

:19:10.:19:20.

different picture. Manufacturing output remained frozen at the level

:19:21.:19:30.

of five years ago. It is still 6.4% down. In his budget speech the

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Chancellor spoke of his vision of Britain carried aloft by the makers

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but he has not reflected this. The manufacturing sector has shrunk. It

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has failed to materialise. In this context the challenges facing the

:19:58.:20:02.

steel industry represent annexes dental crisis for the manufacturing

:20:03.:20:06.

sector in the UK. I don't believe we can allow it to shrink further. I'm

:20:07.:20:14.

glad the government has realised this. We need action. The crisis in

:20:15.:20:23.

the steel industry matters for the wider economy as well. Much has been

:20:24.:20:27.

said about the cost of supporting the steel industry but far too

:20:28.:20:35.

little about the cost of it being destroyed. The collapse would lead

:20:36.:20:41.

to additional cost to the government of ?4.6 billion. It would take

:20:42.:20:49.

demand out of the economy, reducing household spending by ?3 billion.

:20:50.:20:59.

There would be secondary shocks up and down the country. Tata steel is

:21:00.:21:04.

the biggest business rates appear in rather with an annual bill of ?3.2

:21:05.:21:12.

million. The loss of this revenue to the local authority is equivalent to

:21:13.:21:26.

a 1.8% increase in council tax the. Does my right honourable friend

:21:27.:21:29.

agree that the way forward was shown by the Labour government when it

:21:30.:21:35.

introduced a car scrap scheme to support the automotive industry.

:21:36.:21:51.

This sector was preserved and it now prospers. My honourable friend is

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absolutely right and I hope the Secretary of State is taking note.

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The trade deficit is now the worst since 1948. The loss of steel and

:22:13.:22:29.

current exports in steel would make this clearly sustainable deficit

:22:30.:22:34.

even worse. Beyond this cost there would be an intolerable social cost.

:22:35.:22:43.

15,000 jobs are at stake and a further 25,000 at stake in the wider

:22:44.:22:48.

supply chain. These are the kind of jobs we need to see more of. The end

:22:49.:22:54.

of steel-making in the UK would be devastating for a 40,000 workers and

:22:55.:23:00.

the communities. Some have highlighted the cost of intervening

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but I believe the cost of letting steel feel is far greater. I don't

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mean to pre-empt what she says but could she confirmed to the house, is

:23:17.:23:21.

it the policy of Her Majesty's opposition that the steel industry

:23:22.:23:24.

should be nationalised and remain in public hands for as long as

:23:25.:23:27.

necessary? is what is necessary to preserve

:23:28.:23:42.

restructure and insure the survival of our steel industry for the

:23:43.:23:47.

future. And that is the job of government. We will be as supportive

:23:48.:23:52.

as we can and I will set out some parameters a bit later on in my

:23:53.:23:56.

speech but really, this is about the government getting it act in order.

:23:57.:24:01.

We are holding the government to account for their actions rather

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than just their words, that is what this debate is about.

:24:05.:24:13.

On that point, we heard nothing yesterday from the Secretary of

:24:14.:24:18.

State about what action the government is going to take on

:24:19.:24:24.

energy costs and business rates, which are burdening the industry,

:24:25.:24:27.

and government could act, yet we have had no sign the government will

:24:28.:24:32.

change policy in these vital areas. We will have the chance to hear

:24:33.:24:36.

about some concrete action from the government during the course of this

:24:37.:24:40.

debate. I was talking about the cost of letting the industry fail, for

:24:41.:24:45.

the community, the cost to the economy is high, but the cost to the

:24:46.:24:50.

workers and their communities with a higher. So we welcome the recent

:24:51.:24:54.

commitment from the Business Secretary to do everything they can

:24:55.:24:57.

to protect steel-making and processing in the UK. But this

:24:58.:25:05.

Business Secretary has form. Warm words are all very well but they are

:25:06.:25:09.

worth as if they are not. I'm meaningful action as the Redcar

:25:10.:25:15.

community now to their cost. -- if they are not backed up by meaningful

:25:16.:25:19.

action. We are in no doubt that there are huge challenges facing the

:25:20.:25:23.

industry but we also believe the steel industry in the UK can have a

:25:24.:25:28.

strong, sustainable future. The decisions made by this government

:25:29.:25:31.

will ultimately determine whether it does. That is why I welcome the

:25:32.:25:37.

commitment of the Business Secretary appeared to make during the

:25:38.:25:41.

statement yesterday, to what he called co-investment. Perhaps he

:25:42.:25:46.

will tell us if he is considering co-investment to save the blast

:25:47.:25:50.

furnaces at Port Talbot? Because we did not get out and said to this

:25:51.:25:56.

yesterday. Can the Business Secretary confirm here and now that

:25:57.:26:01.

he will avoid a fire sale of these assets and make sure that

:26:02.:26:03.

irreversible mistakes are not made in the way in which they are sold?

:26:04.:26:14.

Tata, is a responsible seller, must only consider offers which maintain

:26:15.:26:21.

both upstream and downstream assets. The government must also ensure that

:26:22.:26:29.

enough time is made available for the appropriate considerations of

:26:30.:26:35.

responsible offers. It took nine months for the Scunthorpe deal to be

:26:36.:26:41.

developed. And yet Tata have indicated they wish to exit the UK

:26:42.:26:46.

within four months. What is being done to reassure the easiest in

:26:47.:26:49.

customer base that their current and future contracts will be fulfilled

:26:50.:26:54.

during this period of uncertainty? These plants cannot be saved if the

:26:55.:27:01.

order book disappears. There are a number of areas where the government

:27:02.:27:05.

can make, I believe, a positive difference. The most significant

:27:06.:27:08.

cause of the crisis facing the industry is the one thing of huge

:27:09.:27:11.

amounts of cheap Chinese steel on the market. -- and dumping. Chinese

:27:12.:27:23.

state owned firms are making huge losses yet continued to pour out

:27:24.:27:28.

product. The UK simply cannot compete with state subsidised unfair

:27:29.:27:31.

trade which is threatening to destroy the European industry as

:27:32.:27:35.

well as ours. We are not calling for protectionism but we are standing up

:27:36.:27:41.

for fair trade and calling for quick, with tariffs, which help

:27:42.:27:45.

level the playing field. The Business Secretary must abandon his

:27:46.:27:48.

opposition to the abolition of the lesser duty rule and block unfair

:27:49.:27:54.

Chinese imports. Correcting market economy status to China must not be

:27:55.:28:08.

automatic -- granting. The Chinese may only one in five of the criteria

:28:09.:28:11.

yet the UK support the granting of that status as early as the share.

:28:12.:28:26.

Potential buyers of the Tata operation need the surest sign that

:28:27.:28:31.

the government is ready to act. To ensure that UK steel producers can

:28:32.:28:37.

benefit from large public sector contracts. The Ministry of Defence

:28:38.:28:43.

will spend ?178 billion on defence equipment over the next ten years

:28:44.:28:46.

yet the Coalition Government scrapped the Labour's defence

:28:47.:28:51.

industry strategy which made British jobs and industry the first priority

:28:52.:28:54.

in all decisions on Ministry of Defence contract. We now have the

:28:55.:29:00.

deeply regrettable situation of an aircraft carrier, surface ships, and

:29:01.:29:04.

armoured vehicles, all being manufactured in the UK with mainly

:29:05.:29:10.

imported steel. With more planning our domestic industry could have

:29:11.:29:16.

supplied these needs. The government must also take action on

:29:17.:29:18.

infrastructure investment, despite all the government we are about

:29:19.:29:24.

this, in reality public sector net investment in the UK will be lower

:29:25.:29:29.

as a percentage of GDP at the end of this parliament than at the start,

:29:30.:29:34.

half of what it was under the last Labour government. The project

:29:35.:29:38.

announced in the government infrastructure pipeline, just one in

:29:39.:29:42.

are under way. For the sake of our steel industry, and for the sake of

:29:43.:29:46.

the wider economy, on the government to bring forward rejects that

:29:47.:29:51.

require a significant amount of steel -- projects, and make sure

:29:52.:29:58.

that changes in the rules which the government keep posting about,

:29:59.:30:07.

actually make a difference. -- boasting.

:30:08.:30:12.

Yesterday I received a letter from the Prime Minister praising and

:30:13.:30:15.

infrastructure investment in the railway between Wrexham and Chester.

:30:16.:30:21.

Unfortunately this is being funded by the Labour Welsh Government. It

:30:22.:30:23.

appears to be the only example that the Prime Minister could forward

:30:24.:30:32.

investing in rail in North Wales. It is a very telling point and I

:30:33.:30:35.

hope the government will connect these things in its procurement

:30:36.:30:44.

efforts. So that we can make a real difference to the potential customer

:30:45.:30:46.

base for UK steel at this very difficult time.

:30:47.:30:56.

Does my honourable friend share my concern that certain major

:30:57.:31:01.

procurement project, like high speed two, like nuclear, are being given

:31:02.:31:05.

to China? My fear is they will actually want to use Chinese steel.

:31:06.:31:10.

Let alone the case that were these British companies they would pay

:31:11.:31:13.

corporation tax, national insurance, income tax, which developed the

:31:14.:31:18.

supply chain and export capacity. This she share I fear that there is

:31:19.:31:23.

no proper joint industrial strategy to protect jobs and futures?

:31:24.:31:31.

I do agree. It is hard to avoid, when we see the Chancellor

:31:32.:31:34.

travelling around China, asking them to bid for all of these contracts,

:31:35.:31:40.

we see what sexually happening. Business rates represent a higher

:31:41.:31:48.

cost for UK stupid users. -- what is actually happening. The Chancellor

:31:49.:31:57.

reportedly even costed the changes with a view to including it in the

:31:58.:32:06.

near infamous budget, before being dropped at the last minute. The

:32:07.:32:10.

measure that would actually improve prospects for the industry was

:32:11.:32:16.

sacrificed for an economically illiterate and increasingly

:32:17.:32:18.

unachievable surplus target. Part of the problem is ideology. Labour have

:32:19.:32:24.

been calling for a modern, intelligent industrial strategy. In

:32:25.:32:31.

yesterday's statement of the Business Secretary actually uttered

:32:32.:32:36.

the words, strategy, for the first time. -- the words, business

:32:37.:32:45.

strategy. Now that this Rubicon has been crossed all we now need is

:32:46.:32:55.

action to match the words. Today we spare a thought for the thousands of

:32:56.:32:58.

steel workers whose futures hang in the balance. The government ignored

:32:59.:33:04.

the warning signs for too long but now must act. They must act to find

:33:05.:33:11.

a suitable buyer. To work with the steel producers, the workforce, the

:33:12.:33:16.

clients, the customers, to place the industry on an even keel. The costs

:33:17.:33:22.

of failure both economically and socially are unthinkable. We need

:33:23.:33:23.

urgent action to save our steel. Order. The question is, that this

:33:24.:33:38.

House has considered Tata's decision to sell their UK steel operations,

:33:39.:33:43.

and the action that the government is taken to secure the future of the

:33:44.:33:48.

steel industry. The Secretary of State.

:33:49.:33:54.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The whole House will be deeply concerned by

:33:55.:33:57.

the crisis affecting the global steel industry over the last year.

:33:58.:34:03.

The fact are familiar but they're repeating. Around the world

:34:04.:34:08.

steel-making capacity is 35% higher than the mind. In China alone the

:34:09.:34:14.

excess capacity is 25 times the UK's entire annual production. The man

:34:15.:34:19.

has slumped in China as the economy grows and demand here in Europe has

:34:20.:34:23.

yet to return to the crash levels. This surge in supply has inevitably

:34:24.:34:32.

led to a large fall in prices. The knock-on effect for steelworkers

:34:33.:34:35.

around the world has been devastating. In the UK we have sadly

:34:36.:34:44.

seen the closure of plants in Redcar after the parent company ran up

:34:45.:34:48.

unsustainable losses. Across Europe, 70,000 workers have been laid off

:34:49.:34:54.

since 2008. And last week we heard that US steel, the biggest in the

:34:55.:35:00.

United States, was laying off a quarter of its nonunion workforce,

:35:01.:35:05.

and earlier this month the owner of one of the two heavy steel mills

:35:06.:35:10.

left in Australia entered voluntary administration. This is of course

:35:11.:35:16.

more than just numbers. It is a human tragedy. When we talk about

:35:17.:35:20.

job losses in the abstract it is easy to forget that each of them

:35:21.:35:24.

represents a person. A hard-working, highly skilled person. Many of them

:35:25.:35:31.

will have husbands, wives, children, other dependents, to support, all

:35:32.:35:35.

will have local business relying on their custom, and that pattern will

:35:36.:35:39.

be repeated throughout the supply chain. That is why, where job losses

:35:40.:35:45.

have happened in Britain, we have done everything we can to support

:35:46.:35:49.

communities affected. I will give way.

:35:50.:35:55.

I thank the honourable gentleman. He said, we must not forget. I can

:35:56.:35:58.

pursue the honourable gentleman people in this House or not forget.

:35:59.:36:04.

I am one of the people you're government did this to 30 years ago

:36:05.:36:08.

when you closed the coal mines. You didn't care then, didn't care about

:36:09.:36:13.

the social cost that has destroyed areas like mine, and you need to

:36:14.:36:16.

bear that in mind going forward in this debate.

:36:17.:36:24.

Mr Speaker, I am sure the honourable gentleman agrees with me, where the

:36:25.:36:29.

government can help where there are job losses, of course, it must do

:36:30.:36:35.

so. I will give away in a moment. Let me speak about Redcar. I know

:36:36.:36:39.

that the honourable gentleman is interested in that as well. We have

:36:40.:36:44.

committed up to ?80 million to help people affected by the Redcar

:36:45.:36:50.

closure. More than ?16 million to help local firms employ former

:36:51.:36:54.

workers. Another ?16 million in supporting companies in the I supply

:36:55.:37:03.

chain in the wider region. -- the SSI supply chain. There was a ?1.7

:37:04.:37:11.

million package to help former SSI apprentices remain in employment or

:37:12.:37:16.

training. I give way. When he says this government will do

:37:17.:37:20.

everything for communities affected, and the date of the liquidation at

:37:21.:37:25.

Redcar, he announced an ?80 million total package, oh, it is ?90 million

:37:26.:37:33.

now! We have seen prior, at the dispatch box...

:37:34.:37:40.

Order, order. Junior minister, we don't need you shouting from a

:37:41.:37:46.

sedentary position. Be quiet! It is not required. I have told you so

:37:47.:37:55.

many times. Try to get the message! We saw at the dispatch box not long

:37:56.:37:58.

ago the Secretary of State changed the figure to ?50 million. The money

:37:59.:38:03.

on top was only gained because a trade union went to a tribunal to

:38:04.:38:06.

guarantee the workforce court what they were entitled to. The governor

:38:07.:38:10.

could have fast-track that seven months ago! -- government.

:38:11.:38:19.

I thought the honourable gentleman said, up to ?90 million. What we

:38:20.:38:23.

have always said, and it has not changed, is achingly in pounds. To

:38:24.:38:28.

be clear. I agree there is a long way to go. -- has not changed, is

:38:29.:38:41.

?80 million. More than 2000 workers from SSI, only a quarter of them are

:38:42.:38:44.

claiming jobseeker's allowance at the end of debris. I will give way.

:38:45.:38:52.

The 600 job figure is those who are in work or training. Not just work.

:38:53.:38:57.

That is important, because it is work that will be vital at the end

:38:58.:38:58.

of the training. The honourable lady makes a very

:38:59.:39:10.

important point. Retraining can lead to work so it is important to invest

:39:11.:39:17.

in that. But I do know that I need to, for the people of Redcar, this

:39:18.:39:25.

feels like a drop in the ocean. When a community is built around a single

:39:26.:39:28.

industry the death of that industry takes away more than just jobs. This

:39:29.:39:38.

government has been taking real action to support the industry. He

:39:39.:39:47.

begin to appreciate how this clause intercommunity? I attended a medical

:39:48.:39:50.

centre on Teesside who lost nurses because they had given up their

:39:51.:39:54.

bursary of funded training programmes because their husbands

:39:55.:39:58.

had lost their jobs. The ripples for this go right out. It is up to 9000

:39:59.:40:06.

people losing jobs and he should understand that very clearly. The

:40:07.:40:12.

honourable gentleman is absolutely right. It is devastating way beyond

:40:13.:40:20.

the community and that is why we must do everything together to

:40:21.:40:27.

prevent that happening. We must support the supply chain because as

:40:28.:40:30.

the honourable gentleman highlights it has a ripple effect throughout

:40:31.:40:40.

the community. I work very hard with members across the house to secure

:40:41.:40:49.

pensions from Ford. Even Tata steel have almost fully made up their

:40:50.:40:53.

pension fund, will the government socialised that fund so that

:40:54.:41:08.

pensions are secure? I will move on in just a moment. He rightly

:41:09.:41:12.

identifies pensions as an issue and we are looking at all possible

:41:13.:41:20.

solutions. I want to take a moment on the action we've already taken

:41:21.:41:24.

action with. ?76 million has already been paid and we expect to pay over

:41:25.:41:32.

?100 million this financial year alone. In the Autumn Statement we

:41:33.:41:40.

announced that we will go farther. Energy intensive industries will be

:41:41.:41:44.

exempted from renewable policy cost and it will save the steel industry

:41:45.:41:49.

over ?400 million by the end of this Parliament. Surely the honourable

:41:50.:41:55.

gentleman would agree that rather than compensating businesses for

:41:56.:41:59.

attacks we've levied it would be more logical to scrap the tax? My

:42:00.:42:10.

honourable friend will agree that our move to go to exemption rather

:42:11.:42:15.

than compensation is exactly what my honourable friend would like to see.

:42:16.:42:22.

Would he accept that the support this government is having is only a

:42:23.:42:29.

fraction of what Germany and other countries are giving to their steel

:42:30.:42:32.

industries, it would still leave the steel industry with much higher

:42:33.:42:39.

energy costs. Isn't it better to consider going farther to help the

:42:40.:42:45.

steel industry? I think the honourable gentleman does underplay

:42:46.:42:50.

the help this provides the industry. If you speak to the manufacturers,

:42:51.:42:59.

they see this as a game changer. Where I can agree with him, I think

:43:00.:43:03.

there is more to look at in this area, particularly with regards to

:43:04.:43:17.

securing a buyer. In a meeting with industrial communities which

:43:18.:43:20.

represent industrial areas in the UK the EU commission reiterated their

:43:21.:43:24.

commitment to change the trade defence instruments which would

:43:25.:43:31.

tackle the cheap steel issue. Will they make these changes? I will come

:43:32.:43:41.

onto that in a moment but let first talk about the delivery of

:43:42.:43:55.

flexibility. We've taken action on procurement, becoming the first

:43:56.:44:00.

country anywhere in Europe to take on EU rules which make it easier for

:44:01.:44:06.

the public to buy British. That is on top of our proud record of

:44:07.:44:17.

British Steel. He has the Minister for procurement next to him. He'd

:44:18.:44:25.

said the UK did not have full records of where they have got steel

:44:26.:44:29.

from. How can we be sure of this when departments are not even

:44:30.:44:33.

keeping records and defence projects are being made in other countries? I

:44:34.:44:40.

think he may hear more about that from the Minister for procurement in

:44:41.:44:46.

the coming days but when it does come to procurement, first of all

:44:47.:44:52.

with defence itself as an example, the new aircraft carriers are being

:44:53.:44:57.

built with 100,000 tonnes of British Steel. Crossrail, the biggest

:44:58.:45:07.

construction project in Europe, users British Steel almost

:45:08.:45:11.

exclusively. 96% of Network Rail spending goes to them. 1500 miles of

:45:12.:45:22.

it. Enough to build a two track line from London to Edinburgh. I believe

:45:23.:45:31.

the procurement of Network Rail is a case study in how to do procurement.

:45:32.:45:43.

But if you look at energy, we need to make sure it uses UK steel. What

:45:44.:45:50.

progress is he making with his colleagues to ensure that turns out

:45:51.:45:57.

to be the case? We've had meetings with that particular company and

:45:58.:46:01.

many others in a similar situation. Many of them are private companies,

:46:02.:46:09.

not subject to the rules around procurement, but there are ways to

:46:10.:46:12.

try and encourage them to invest in British Steel and that is what is

:46:13.:46:25.

happening. I will give the moment. The question was raised about

:46:26.:46:34.

defence. We've been working hard at the issue of trade defence. I hear a

:46:35.:46:42.

lot in this house about ideology. I'm just interested in one thing,

:46:43.:46:47.

that is what actually works. We are the evidence shows that tariffs will

:46:48.:46:53.

make a difference without harming reddish business, I will support

:46:54.:46:57.

them. That is why last July the UK voted to impose a 16% tariff. Since

:46:58.:47:07.

those duties were imposed on imports from China have fallen by as much as

:47:08.:47:16.

90%. Since duties were imposed on imports from China were down 80%. In

:47:17.:47:24.

January, we voted to impose an 11% tariff and since then imports of

:47:25.:47:30.

that steel product have fallen by 99%. In February we voted for a 15%

:47:31.:47:38.

tariff on flat products, which has already produced imports from China

:47:39.:47:46.

-- reduced imports from China to almost nothing. This is real action

:47:47.:47:54.

and they are making a difference. This is what the European steel

:47:55.:48:00.

Association spokesperson said about this rule. The fact that the UK

:48:01.:48:06.

continues to block it means when the government says it is doing

:48:07.:48:11.

everything it can to save the steel industry, it is not. Isn't that the

:48:12.:48:17.

truth? I will turn to that in a moment but I will give way to the

:48:18.:48:21.

honourable lady if she still wants to. I hope you will answer the

:48:22.:48:29.

question. On procurement, when it comes to energy, the government is

:48:30.:48:36.

intervening in the energy market. Has the Secretary of State looked at

:48:37.:48:43.

making sure when these often very generous contracts are negotiated

:48:44.:48:46.

that buying British made steel is part of that contract as well? No

:48:47.:48:53.

stone is unreturned in terms of making sure we sell as much British

:48:54.:49:02.

Steel as possible. Turning to the point about the letter duty rule.

:49:03.:49:11.

The opposition repeatedly raised this rule but they had no problem

:49:12.:49:17.

with it for many years whilst they were in government. Scrapping the

:49:18.:49:23.

rule altogether would cost dearly. It would mean raising prices on

:49:24.:49:30.

everyday items that we rely on. On footwear, the rules save British

:49:31.:49:39.

shoppers ?130 million. However, I am more than happy to look at ways of

:49:40.:49:43.

specifically helping the steel industry and I hope during this

:49:44.:49:47.

debate members will come up with ideas. I will be listening.

:49:48.:50:02.

I referred to the interventional Labour Government took when the

:50:03.:50:08.

government stepped up to the plate to support industry. Can I suggest

:50:09.:50:17.

that the Secretary of State approached the automotive sectors

:50:18.:50:27.

and ask them to engender, the way they can assist the UK steel

:50:28.:50:35.

industry and step up to the plate at this time of great difficulty? We

:50:36.:50:45.

have sector councils for both of those industries, we have that

:50:46.:50:48.

regular dialogue and that is exactly the kind of thing they are focused

:50:49.:51:01.

on and the work they are doing. I read a very interesting stat that

:51:02.:51:05.

there has been a decline in the industries across the UK. Can I ask

:51:06.:51:16.

the Secretary of State why he thinks the decline of these industries is

:51:17.:51:21.

twice the level of other OECD countries? I don't know where the

:51:22.:51:26.

honourable gentleman gets his numbers from but it brings me to a

:51:27.:51:33.

useful point, where the Right Honourable Lady had said earlier,

:51:34.:51:36.

but when I said manufacturing output is down, sorry, up since 2010, the

:51:37.:51:42.

honourable lady suggested it was incorrect. I can tell her that

:51:43.:51:47.

manufacturing output since 2010 is up 2.2% in real terms, 18.7% in

:51:48.:51:54.

current prices. Those are the official numbers and manufacturing

:51:55.:51:57.

and employment is up. If she wants to know about when manufacturing

:51:58.:52:02.

output falls, that was during the last Labour government when it fell

:52:03.:52:13.

from 18% of GPA to 10%. Steel companies are seriously concerned

:52:14.:52:16.

that the market economy status granted to China will severely

:52:17.:52:23.

jeopardise their ability to take Chinese or other companies to court

:52:24.:52:28.

for dumping. What assessment has been made of that threat? Mr

:52:29.:52:38.

Speaker, that will be a decision for the EU, but also, any country that

:52:39.:52:44.

once market economy status, it is clear that they need to earn it.

:52:45.:52:57.

Let's remember, you can still impose tariffs. Russia and the United

:52:58.:53:00.

States is a good example. Does the Minister accept that many

:53:01.:53:10.

on this side of the House believe it is for this House and this

:53:11.:53:13.

government to decide whether a country like China is dumping? And

:53:14.:53:20.

we should make the decision whether to improve tariffs. We think that if

:53:21.:53:25.

we had been outside the EU months ago we would have approved tariffs

:53:26.:53:32.

and solve the problem. I would tell my right honourable friend that we

:53:33.:53:41.

have led the way in taking this action and it has resulted in the

:53:42.:53:44.

right tariffs are helping the steel industry but at the same time

:53:45.:53:48.

helping producers and consumers. My friend will agree with me that when

:53:49.:53:52.

you do take action on tariffs you want to be sure that it is the

:53:53.:53:55.

actual amount is a sorry to help the industry but not help consumers and

:53:56.:54:00.

other producers. I will give way one more time.

:54:01.:54:10.

He has mentioned the issue of the tariffs and increasing them in that

:54:11.:54:15.

industry is obviously crucial, the exporters shunted up their tariffs

:54:16.:54:19.

before they came in, so we may have seen a drop off because of that. So

:54:20.:54:23.

does he still think the tariffs are high enough, or do they need to go

:54:24.:54:27.

even higher to deal with the industry changes going on to other

:54:28.:54:32.

factors? We should always be driven by the

:54:33.:54:38.

evidence. The results so far of that tariffs are 99%, year on year,

:54:39.:54:45.

suggesting it is effective, but we should always keep it under review

:54:46.:54:51.

and make sure that it is effective. These, the

:54:52.:54:51.

and will, yes. I am grateful. He has talked about

:54:52.:54:59.

the government action on procurement, the response on

:55:00.:55:05.

tariffs, and yesterday he talked about government co-investment. Any

:55:06.:55:08.

users opportunity to please clarify, what does the government mean by

:55:09.:55:14.

co-investment? My honourable friend will know that

:55:15.:55:23.

it was in relation to the Tata decision to sell the business. What

:55:24.:55:27.

I set out was to show that when the government says we will look at all

:55:28.:55:31.

options to help create a long-term, viable business, with a commercial

:55:32.:55:36.

operator, that it would be such an option. The key point is that any

:55:37.:55:42.

co-investment have to be on commercial terms. It can take a

:55:43.:55:48.

variety of forms. It can be set. It is a demonstration of all the

:55:49.:55:51.

options the government is looking at. I will move on to that in a bit

:55:52.:55:55.

moment when I have said a bit more about Tata, but that may finish on

:55:56.:56:02.

the actions they can already on tariffs, energy cost, and

:56:03.:56:07.

procurement. Not for now. Together, these send a powerful message to

:56:08.:56:11.

investors around the world. It is that the British government is

:56:12.:56:16.

standing up for UK steel. This commitment is not new. I have worked

:56:17.:56:21.

with the steel industry since my first day as secretary, long before

:56:22.:56:25.

this crisis made it onto the front pages. As I told the House

:56:26.:56:31.

yesterday, Tata contacted me several weeks ago to warn that they were

:56:32.:56:35.

planning to sell parts of their business, and that they planned

:56:36.:56:39.

immediate closure of the Port Talbot site. Thanks to the groundwork laid

:56:40.:56:44.

by my team and colleagues all over the past year we were able to secure

:56:45.:56:51.

a reprieve whilst a buyer was found. I lead the government efforts to

:56:52.:56:55.

help find that buyer and we will update the House on progress as soon

:56:56.:57:00.

as we possibly can. When a buyer is found the government stands ready to

:57:01.:57:06.

support them in any way that we can, to help get that deal done. We have

:57:07.:57:10.

already set out some ways we can help, I do not get it prudent to go

:57:11.:57:18.

into detail. -- do not think. But the goal is a commercial buyer with

:57:19.:57:23.

government help in securing the transaction and getting a long-term,

:57:24.:57:29.

viable future for the business. In terms of a broader view of

:57:30.:57:36.

co-investment, the steel sector does not have catapults status. Will that

:57:37.:57:42.

be looked at as a potential co-investment, if you like, for the

:57:43.:57:46.

sector, particularly around sites such as MPI, so that we can have a

:57:47.:57:52.

research and development link with our domestic steel industry?

:57:53.:57:58.

He will know that catapults centres are a partnership between

:57:59.:58:01.

government, businesses, and academia. If that can help the steel

:58:02.:58:07.

sector come forward with a proposal, then I am more than happy to

:58:08.:58:19.

research and look into that. There are hundreds of

:58:20.:58:22.

apprenticeships in Port Talbot who whilst receiving on-the-job training

:58:23.:58:30.

also attend college or university. If the steel-making facilities and

:58:31.:58:36.

subsequent sponsorships are removed then this will deprive future

:58:37.:58:40.

generations of potential, and for the UK being at the forefront of

:58:41.:58:47.

development. What I can pursue the honourable

:58:48.:58:50.

lady, who makes a very important point about the importance of skills

:58:51.:58:54.

training, is that we are working already with the Welsh Government on

:58:55.:59:01.

that. And I have already started discussions with the universities

:59:02.:59:03.

minister, and the schools minister, to make sure the issue remains to

:59:04.:59:10.

the front of the mind. Mr Speaker, I also want to talk about Tata,

:59:11.:59:14.

yesterday we heard about their deal with Grable, along with the

:59:15.:59:35.

liberty House acquisition Scotland and the West Midlands it is a vote

:59:36.:59:38.

of confidence in the British steel industry. I have not been able to do

:59:39.:59:42.

this work alone. I want to give praise to my right honourable

:59:43.:59:47.

friend, the Minister for business, she has been absolutely tireless in

:59:48.:59:51.

her efforts to protect steel. As has my honourable friend, the Secretary

:59:52.:59:57.

of State for Wales. I have had the pleasure of working closely with the

:59:58.:00:00.

Welsh First Minister and the leader of the Welsh Conservatives in the

:00:01.:00:04.

assembly. They have been positive and constructive allies in the fight

:00:05.:00:10.

to save Port Talbot. And the steel unions, particularly community, have

:00:11.:00:14.

been equally constructive. They have consistently come forward with

:00:15.:00:16.

solutions rather than can claims and for that I would like to say thank

:00:17.:00:23.

you once again. Investors everywhere now that British Steel is the best

:00:24.:00:34.

in the world. They know that the British government stands with the

:00:35.:00:36.

steel industry and will do whatever they can to support and help them

:00:37.:00:40.

become more competitive. The challenges they face are great. They

:00:41.:00:46.

challenge the industry faces is global. But I fight for British

:00:47.:00:49.

steelworkers every hour of the day. I fought for them along before this

:00:50.:00:54.

crisis hit the headlines and I will go on fighting as long as it takes

:00:55.:00:58.

because British steelworkers are the best in the world and deserve no

:00:59.:01:02.

less. I congratulate the honourable member

:01:03.:01:10.

on securing this debate and IPC and your discretion, Mr Speaker, in

:01:11.:01:16.

omitting it, understanding order number 24. I will be brief, from our

:01:17.:01:20.

frontbenchers, in order to allow colleagues from steel communities,

:01:21.:01:25.

from Scotland, England, and Wales, to contribute to this short debate.

:01:26.:01:29.

The Business Secretary yesterday tried to get out of the hole he had

:01:30.:01:33.

dug himself by claiming credit for the news that Tata had found a

:01:34.:01:39.

buyer, claiming the government did everything they could for the steel

:01:40.:01:43.

industry and a sickly the workers in England and Wales should be grateful

:01:44.:01:49.

to the Tories. -- basically. I am grateful that Tata has found a buyer

:01:50.:01:56.

and hopefully the same can happen for Port Talbot and other sites, if

:01:57.:02:00.

the government is involved then I do commend it, but I am concerned about

:02:01.:02:06.

reports regarding the erosion of workers terms and conditions as part

:02:07.:02:09.

of the deal. Is the Business Secretary aware of it? Did this come

:02:10.:02:14.

up in discussions with Grable capital? And Willie you make

:02:15.:02:24.

representations to them? I am also concerned about the potential

:02:25.:02:26.

co-ownership of steel sites like Port Talbot, it was described as

:02:27.:02:31.

co-investment in commercial terms. Perhaps he can clarify that is

:02:32.:02:34.

yesterday left more questions than answers. Indeed it this morning

:02:35.:02:39.

appears that number ten was briefing against him, against this

:02:40.:02:44.

flirtation, saying that nationalisation is not the answer,

:02:45.:02:54.

it is uncoordinated and shambolic. What the honourable gentleman said

:02:55.:02:57.

about terms and conditions, that will be negotiated on site,

:02:58.:03:01.

including in my constituency, the terms and congestion is being

:03:02.:03:05.

reduced, and the pension conditions, R4 12 months only. That is usually

:03:06.:03:09.

called a short-term working agreement, I have negotiated them

:03:10.:03:14.

many times to save sight. As an industrial matter, not a political

:03:15.:03:17.

matter, does not really the place of this House to discuss it.

:03:18.:03:23.

I take the intervention with the intention in which it was clearly

:03:24.:03:28.

given. As I said yesterday, the fact that the Business Secretary was

:03:29.:03:31.

literally at the other side of the world at the height of the crisis is

:03:32.:03:38.

a perfect metaphor for the Conservative approach to the steel

:03:39.:03:42.

industry. Yesterday was the first time the government has proactively

:03:43.:03:44.

engaged with the House on this issue. Even that was after a

:03:45.:03:48.

shambolic recess where there were calls for the recall of Parliament.

:03:49.:03:53.

On every other occasion that I have been involved in discussions,

:03:54.:03:56.

certainly the vast majority of occasions when steel has been

:03:57.:03:59.

discussed in this House, it is because the government has been

:04:00.:04:03.

dragged here by opposition parties, as it has again today. It is clear

:04:04.:04:07.

the government has been behind the curve on steel, and I have already

:04:08.:04:11.

said that yesterday was the first time the government had proactively

:04:12.:04:15.

and so, and that was after a shambolic recess. The government has

:04:16.:04:19.

been behind the curve on this steel crisis. Defensive reactions rather

:04:20.:04:25.

than proactive, practical support. In stark contrast to the

:04:26.:04:28.

professional and diligent way the Scottish Government has approached

:04:29.:04:32.

the crisis facing fines in Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon said the Scottish

:04:33.:04:36.

Government would leave no stone and turned in saving a crucial industry

:04:37.:04:40.

and that is exactly what happened. The Scottish steel task force was

:04:41.:04:44.

quickly assembled and I am delighted to say that my honourable friend

:04:45.:04:48.

from Motherwell, Wishaw, Hamilton West, contributed to that. Liberty

:04:49.:04:52.

House has now bought these sites to maintain a crucial industry in

:04:53.:04:57.

Scotland. The Business Secretary was noble enough yesterday to commend

:04:58.:05:00.

the Scottish Government for its action and efforts and I thank him

:05:01.:05:04.

for that, but the mask slipped later in the exchanges when my honourable

:05:05.:05:08.

friend from Rutherglen and Hamilton West asked if the UK Government had

:05:09.:05:12.

learned anything from the approach taken in Scotland. He said, the

:05:13.:05:16.

Business Secretary said, that the only reason Scottish steel had a

:05:17.:05:19.

bright future was because of the strength of the UK economy. Utterly

:05:20.:05:24.

complacent, arrogant, and ignorant of the facts, Mr Speaker. We on

:05:25.:05:30.

these benches stand in solidarity with English and Welsh steelworkers

:05:31.:05:34.

as they struggle and fight for their jobs and their industry alongside

:05:35.:05:40.

their union representatives. We hope the UK Government can work more

:05:41.:05:43.

cooperatively with EU colleagues on anti-dumping measures and other

:05:44.:05:47.

issues facing this industry so that there can be a long-term future for

:05:48.:05:51.

the crucial part of the manufacturing sector. There needs to

:05:52.:05:54.

be a credible manufacturing strategy, and for heavy industry, in

:05:55.:05:58.

the UK. As the Shadow Business Secretary said this government faces

:05:59.:06:03.

a massive, record-breaking, balance of trade imbalance. The only way of

:06:04.:06:09.

rectifying that is to start making things. If the government supports

:06:10.:06:12.

those areas of the economy rather than relying heavily on other areas.

:06:13.:06:16.

Imagine what could have been achieved with the Prime Minister had

:06:17.:06:20.

spent the last year touring European capitals, pressing for action on

:06:21.:06:27.

steel. Rather than testing the patience of European colleagues on a

:06:28.:06:33.

referendum gamble. To conclude, yesterday I asked the Business

:06:34.:06:36.

Secretary a simple question and he dodged it. Now he has the

:06:37.:06:40.

opportunity again to answer. With the published details of the

:06:41.:06:44.

meetings, phone calls, and correspondence that he, the Prime

:06:45.:06:47.

Minister, Chancellor, and other Cabinet members, have made in

:06:48.:06:52.

respect to the steel industry? If he has done the work that he claims to

:06:53.:06:56.

have done, if he has indeed strained every seen you for you will have

:06:57.:07:01.

nothing to hide. Indeed it would help to show if he really on the

:07:02.:07:08.

issue but he claims to have had. -- sinew. I suspect he dodged the

:07:09.:07:12.

question because of the reputation he gained for himself ringing true.

:07:13.:07:16.

What we needed to hear today and yesterday was about the commit this

:07:17.:07:19.

government to save a crucial industry. Not just for the workers,

:07:20.:07:24.

their jobs, their livelihoods, but the wider economy as well. I wonder

:07:25.:07:28.

if we'll ever hear that commitment from this government.

:07:29.:07:33.

There must be a time-limit, we will begin with six minutes.

:07:34.:07:39.

It is a pleasure to follow the honourable member. I must say to him

:07:40.:07:49.

though that I thought some of those remarks were more party political

:07:50.:07:54.

than dealing with what we face today. We are dealing with people's

:07:55.:08:00.

livelihoods. I hope the tone of the House today will be about a

:08:01.:08:05.

solution, and what we can do. Rather than making particle points.

:08:06.:08:14.

I regret that Parliament was not recalled. I thought it was a matter

:08:15.:08:20.

of such urgency that we could have come back and had a debate. Members

:08:21.:08:28.

would have attended. It was quite right and it was unanimously

:08:29.:08:40.

approved. In my brief remarks, and I declare interest, some of my

:08:41.:08:50.

constituents work and have been in touch about their concerns. It is

:08:51.:08:56.

not just those who work directly, it is those who rely on the economic

:08:57.:09:09.

benefit. I spent 13 years in South Wales. I thought the Shadow Business

:09:10.:09:19.

Secretary made an analysis of the situation very well. It strikes me

:09:20.:09:30.

that whichever way, there must be steel industry this country. We

:09:31.:09:37.

cannot be left without a steel industry. If there is a war in the

:09:38.:09:49.

future, you must have your own steel industry or you cannot defend

:09:50.:09:56.

yourself. I think everybody accepts that we need a steel industry and

:09:57.:10:00.

wants to work towards a solution and I know the ministerial team have

:10:01.:10:06.

been working very hard. I do think they are working with one hand tied

:10:07.:10:17.

behind their back. The problem we have is the unfair dumping of steel

:10:18.:10:29.

onto the market backed by state-controlled companies which

:10:30.:10:35.

could put millions of pounds into their industries. I suppose if I was

:10:36.:10:43.

sitting in China, the classic way that you do it is to sell your

:10:44.:10:48.

product abroad at less than what it costs to produce it. What then

:10:49.:10:57.

happens? As we have seen, there are businesses across Europe closing

:10:58.:11:04.

because of this and then what happens is because those industries

:11:05.:11:08.

are knocked out, the main supplier takes a bigger share of the market

:11:09.:11:16.

and they can bump the price of steel up. That is just what happens. Where

:11:17.:11:28.

I think one hand is tied behind the back is the European Union. The

:11:29.:11:33.

problem has been delays in the European Union dealing with tariffs.

:11:34.:11:44.

If we were in the united states, the president imposes tariffs and that

:11:45.:11:50.

shuts off Chinese steel. You think about the issue and whether the

:11:51.:12:00.

government is being Barrett at pushing for tariffs, I think we

:12:01.:12:04.

should agree that if this matter was totally in the hands of this

:12:05.:12:09.

Parliament, the government could make a decision and act and the

:12:10.:12:12.

opposition could criticise and a vote against it. The trouble is,

:12:13.:12:22.

because of state aid rules... This is an absolutely vital national

:12:23.:12:27.

industry. Can my honourable friend imagine any previous United Kingdom

:12:28.:12:32.

government allowing our steel industry to go down the tube? If we

:12:33.:12:41.

had control of our own destiny, surely we could stop this overnight.

:12:42.:12:48.

This is unfair and unreasonable and we should stop it. My honourable

:12:49.:12:57.

friend speaks correctly on this. I'm afraid the front benches cannot deal

:12:58.:13:04.

with this because of the position they've taken. I think if the

:13:05.:13:10.

referendum had not been going on at the moment... Until he got onto his

:13:11.:13:19.

usual track about the EU I agreed with him. But the constituency

:13:20.:13:29.

company I have is a Spanish and Catalan company. If we left, the

:13:30.:13:33.

uncertainty and damage in South Wales but he said he cared about

:13:34.:13:39.

would be immense and it is grossly irresponsible to suggest that

:13:40.:13:45.

leaving the EU would benefit this country. I think his analysis is

:13:46.:13:51.

absolutely wrong and his ideology is driving those comments. I'm not

:13:52.:13:55.

going to give way anymore. Other members want to speak and that would

:13:56.:14:02.

be wrong. It is interesting to note, by the time this debate ends, a

:14:03.:14:14.

cheque will have been written. That is how much money we send. A

:14:15.:14:19.

fraction of that money could be used to protect the steel industry.

:14:20.:14:25.

Whilst we are talking about whether we want to nationalise or sell off,

:14:26.:14:30.

I have no problem with that. If we want partial ownership of the steel

:14:31.:14:34.

industry, that makes sense. But there is no point doing that if you

:14:35.:14:45.

cannot solve the over rule problem, the dumping of steel in this

:14:46.:14:53.

country. You have to cut the cancer out first. It is because of... I

:14:54.:15:02.

have constituents that are concerned and worried about their jobs and I

:15:03.:15:07.

tell you that it is because of the European Union that they may lose

:15:08.:15:11.

their jobs. It may make you smile and laugh but that is the truth and

:15:12.:15:14.

you should be ashamed of saying otherwise. If we want to solve the

:15:15.:15:28.

problem, we must stop the dumping. I know that some members opposite

:15:29.:15:32.

don't like it. The only way to stave the steel industry is to come out of

:15:33.:15:40.

the EU and make our road decisions in this house. If we had not been in

:15:41.:15:45.

the EU months ago we would have imposed tariffs on China. If you

:15:46.:15:50.

want to save the steel industry you need to come out of the EU. I would

:15:51.:15:57.

like to start today by thanking my right honourable friend for securing

:15:58.:16:04.

this bit. I would like to thank the Secretary of State for his pigment

:16:05.:16:07.

yesterday and today and to thank him for attending the meeting. -- his

:16:08.:16:15.

statement. I regret that these meetings have done very little to

:16:16.:16:21.

address the issue of investor and customer confidence, of paramount

:16:22.:16:24.

importance at this time. The priority at the moment alongside the

:16:25.:16:30.

efforts to find an operator should be securing the order book. The

:16:31.:16:37.

customer base is the most pressing issue, and the erosion of it. If

:16:38.:16:42.

that goes it will not come back. Unless the order book is secured, it

:16:43.:16:46.

does not matter what else happened. Nobody will buy a business if it has

:16:47.:16:51.

no customers. That is why I am deeply concerned by the response to

:16:52.:16:57.

my question yesterday. I asked him to outline the specific actions he

:16:58.:17:00.

was taking in this regard. His answer was he would be happy to

:17:01.:17:05.

engage with customers as and when they approached him. This is simply

:17:06.:17:10.

not good enough. The Secretary of State should be on the phone,

:17:11.:17:17.

reaching out to the CEOs, making it clear that the production of the

:17:18.:17:21.

world-class steel they have come to expect will continue come hell or

:17:22.:17:25.

high water. This house and every steelworker in the country now looks

:17:26.:17:30.

to the Secretary of State to take action. He should set out precisely

:17:31.:17:37.

the representations he intends to make to the companies that comprise

:17:38.:17:41.

the customer base which is the lifeblood of the British steel

:17:42.:17:46.

industry. The honourable gentleman makes an important point about the

:17:47.:17:55.

supply chain and customers. We are engaging with many of them. I know

:17:56.:18:04.

the Secretary of State for Wales is as well. I hope he understands that

:18:05.:18:13.

there is a lot of information it would be quite improper to dive old.

:18:14.:18:26.

I think it is important to be on the telephone. At the present time,

:18:27.:18:38.

forgive us for scepticism about the idea that there may be a lack of

:18:39.:18:49.

action. The Secretary of State is belatedly converted to the fact that

:18:50.:18:52.

the government and industry can work together in partnership, I'm not

:18:53.:18:57.

sure what co-investment means in his terms. I agree with the Secretary of

:18:58.:19:04.

State that nationalisation is not a long-term solution but customers

:19:05.:19:07.

need to know that come what may they will be able to purchase products

:19:08.:19:13.

from these sites. Such security can only be possible if the government

:19:14.:19:17.

commits to keep these options on the table. The men and women working in

:19:18.:19:22.

steel and connected industries across this country are among the

:19:23.:19:26.

most highly skilled and effective people in Britain and the workforce

:19:27.:19:34.

is turning the business around. Their skill and dedication is

:19:35.:19:45.

matched by the general secretary of Community, who even the Secretary of

:19:46.:19:49.

State managed to praise. But we need the government to announce an end to

:19:50.:19:54.

their relaxed attitude. We needed a list of all the discussions they've

:19:55.:19:57.

had with the customer base and what we got was prevarication and

:19:58.:20:02.

procrastination. What we needed was the announcement that all options

:20:03.:20:06.

were on the table and we got ambiguity. What we needed was the

:20:07.:20:09.

announcement they would give up their role as China's chief

:20:10.:20:16.

cheerleader in Europe and end their championing of market economy status

:20:17.:20:21.

for China and trade defence reform but what we got was more of the

:20:22.:20:26.

same. Yesterday, the Secretary of State confirmed what we already

:20:27.:20:29.

knew, that the approach has been characterised by a dangerous

:20:30.:20:36.

combination of indifference, incompetence, and rolling out the

:20:37.:20:41.

red carpet for Beijing. Was he as surprised as I was to hear the

:20:42.:20:45.

Chancellor going to China and inviting members to take part in the

:20:46.:20:50.

HS2 project so we could have Chinese steel in major infrastructure

:20:51.:20:56.

projects? I was not surprised and I would remind the house that 80% of

:20:57.:21:00.

the Chinese steel sector is state owned. On what planet can that be

:21:01.:21:09.

considered as a market economy? The claims to have been working on these

:21:10.:21:13.

four months do not stack up. The Secretary of State claimed to have

:21:14.:21:18.

been aware of Tata steel's decision to sell before it was publicly

:21:19.:21:22.

announced. If that was the case, why on earth was he on the other side of

:21:23.:21:28.

the world when the board meeting was taking place? Why was he caught on

:21:29.:21:35.

aware -- caught unaware? Why did he rushed back to the UK in a panic?

:21:36.:21:40.

The Secretary of State boasted that it was his actions alone that

:21:41.:21:44.

prevented Tata steel from closing rather than selling Port Talbot. I

:21:45.:21:50.

must admit that my jaw hit the floor when I heard that claim. I was out

:21:51.:21:55.

in Mumbai, I was therefore the board meeting with the head of Community.

:21:56.:22:02.

The Secretary of State was not there. Tata steel have expressed

:22:03.:22:06.

frustration with the lack of support they have received from this

:22:07.:22:10.

government. Many companies remaining to receive money. Weasel words from

:22:11.:22:18.

a government which got the latest steel for Ministry of Defence

:22:19.:22:30.

frigates from Sweden. This supposedly pro-business government

:22:31.:22:43.

is actually very limited. Labour MPs have raised the issue on over 200

:22:44.:22:53.

separate occasions. The clock is ticking. Tata steel have said they

:22:54.:22:58.

will give this seal all due time. Yesterday's news about Scunthorpe

:22:59.:23:01.

took almost nine months to come and is still not complete. The deal may

:23:02.:23:08.

take time. Mr Speaker, let us hope that today's debate marks a step

:23:09.:23:12.

change in attitude and action from this government. Let us hope they

:23:13.:23:17.

will draw actively work to protect the entirety of the order book, save

:23:18.:23:23.

the future of Port Talbot, define what they mean.

:23:24.:23:29.

As he is aware, his colleagues and the Welsh Government have been

:23:30.:23:43.

discussing this issue. Does he think the ?60 million allocated to Tata

:23:44.:23:47.

Steel is sufficient? We have a stark contrast between the actions of the

:23:48.:23:51.

Welsh Government and the UK Government. 60 million on the table,

:23:52.:23:54.

the Welsh assembly recall that when that surely should have been

:23:55.:23:57.

happening here, so the contrast is clear. Let us hope they will develop

:23:58.:24:02.

and execute a proper industrial strategy so that we on these benches

:24:03.:24:06.

do not have too raised this matter a further 200 times in the weeks and

:24:07.:24:10.

months to come. Let us hope that they will stand up for steel. Mr

:24:11.:24:16.

Speaker, it is a pleasure to follow the member perhaps unfortunately his

:24:17.:24:24.

speech viewed too much towards the critical rather than the

:24:25.:24:27.

constructive but I think he can be forgiven because he's one of many

:24:28.:24:34.

MPs who would like to speak whose constituencies have significant

:24:35.:24:36.

steel-making. My constituency is not one of those but in Parliament we

:24:37.:24:41.

talk as one community as a whole for all of our constituencies and also

:24:42.:24:46.

how they want to reach out to other communities that are severely

:24:47.:24:50.

effected when things go wrong in an industry or because of natural

:24:51.:24:54.

disasters. Let me repeat that the issues in the steel industry are not

:24:55.:25:00.

going to go away. We face many, many years of brutal competition in the

:25:01.:25:08.

global steel industry. If my right honourable friend and his team are

:25:09.:25:13.

able successfully to find long-term solutions for the steel-making

:25:14.:25:19.

plants in Motherwell and Scunthorpe that will be a very significant

:25:20.:25:27.

achievement to come flesh in these times I think we ought to also talk

:25:28.:25:34.

about what the rules to be. The OTC geek's report on the steel industry

:25:35.:25:46.

-- OECD's report said that it is their own responsibility to adapt to

:25:47.:25:50.

market conditions. We have to accept that many steel companies in the UK

:25:51.:25:53.

have failed to achieve that. It goes on to say the role of governments

:25:54.:25:59.

should be to allow market mechanisms to work properly and avoid measures

:26:00.:26:04.

that artificially support steel-making capacity. The OECD

:26:05.:26:11.

understand the ways in which developing economies can prosper is

:26:12.:26:17.

important for the Government to bear those words in mind. It is also

:26:18.:26:21.

important and I would like to hear from this when the minister closes

:26:22.:26:24.

that whilst we prepare for the best we also have to prepare for the

:26:25.:26:28.

worst so I would like to know what the governor is doing in terms of

:26:29.:26:33.

preparing for support in Port Talbot should all of the best efforts of

:26:34.:26:37.

this Government not to come to fruition in saving those steelworks

:26:38.:26:40.

and may I just make one point from my memory of the times with the coal

:26:41.:26:47.

mining communities in the 1980s. There is never enough support that

:26:48.:26:51.

the Government can give to communities that rely on a single

:26:52.:26:54.

industry. There is never enough support. With respect, I am making

:26:55.:27:04.

the point that lessons have been learned from the 1980s and that in

:27:05.:27:09.

communities where there is a significant concentration of

:27:10.:27:13.

industries, the Government always has to do more than it thinks it has

:27:14.:27:18.

to do, but on the issue of duties and this has been mentioned a number

:27:19.:27:22.

of times so let's just clear up on the lesser duty role. The point is

:27:23.:27:29.

is the duty effective? We follow the lesser duty role. MP3 instances that

:27:30.:27:34.

my right honourable friend mentioned, the import duty has all

:27:35.:27:42.

but disappeared. If we give up the lesser duty rule, it is not about

:27:43.:27:46.

stopping steel coming in, it is about raising prices on those

:27:47.:27:50.

products. You take a 14% tariff and you increase it to 50% when imports

:27:51.:27:55.

have been eliminated and that will result in inflationary pressure from

:27:56.:27:58.

the steel industry to other markets and also may be seen as supporting

:27:59.:28:03.

subsidies from one part of the steel industry to another. It is not right

:28:04.:28:07.

for us to give up the lesser duty role which is the underpinning and

:28:08.:28:15.

go to the US approach of zeroing on tariffs. The same US decision impose

:28:16.:28:31.

a 31% tariff on Tata Steel itself. Tit-for-tat tariffs do not work.

:28:32.:28:37.

Does he have a view as to why it is that the dumping the Chinese are

:28:38.:28:41.

doing affect the UK industry so much more than it affects the German and

:28:42.:28:45.

the Dutch industry and indeed Tata Steel have consolidated in Holland

:28:46.:28:48.

and white is that we are differentially affected like this? I

:28:49.:28:52.

my honourable friend beaks intelligently. This is because

:28:53.:28:54.

private companies will make decisions in different markets

:28:55.:28:59.

across the EU. I think it is fair to say that I don't think the issue is

:29:00.:29:02.

here and I must disagree with my honourable friend because I am not

:29:03.:29:07.

sure that the EU issue here is pertinent to the decisions that will

:29:08.:29:11.

affect the steel industry. The Government is taking effective

:29:12.:29:13.

action on procurement, it is taking effective action on power. I do

:29:14.:29:18.

think having sat on the bill committee on the privatisation of

:29:19.:29:23.

Royal Mail that a case can be made by the Government to take action on

:29:24.:29:26.

the pension requirements for those members of the British Steel

:29:27.:29:31.

industry when it was nationalised. I think there was plenty of scope for

:29:32.:29:33.

people like myself who believe in a free market by the Government to

:29:34.:29:36.

take action on that basis and just to the point of nationalisation and

:29:37.:29:39.

we hear this from the opposition bench on they say they believe the

:29:40.:29:49.

nationalisation but not that it is a long one solution. Do the members

:29:50.:29:53.

opposite know when this crisis in the global steel industry will end?

:29:54.:29:57.

They don't. The global capacity is over 13%. I am afraid if you

:29:58.:30:04.

nationalised, you can do that, but you can't determine when you will be

:30:05.:30:08.

able to put it back into the private market. When you nationalised, you

:30:09.:30:12.

nationalised or as long as it takes and I believe, though I understand

:30:13.:30:16.

the reasons why my honourable friend will not roll this out, I personally

:30:17.:30:20.

believe the Government should pull out nationalisation. I think this is

:30:21.:30:25.

a step too far for the British economy to support the steel

:30:26.:30:29.

industry. If I made is that the issue of the steel industry in

:30:30.:30:32.

context because we are going in a global economy not just in steel but

:30:33.:30:37.

a global economy for the time that most of us will be in this house we

:30:38.:30:44.

will live through an environment where there is a global oversupply

:30:45.:30:49.

of capacity. It will not just be in steel. It will affect other sectors

:30:50.:30:53.

of our economy. We need to understand and abide by those rules

:30:54.:30:57.

that have created a free trade system that has been one of the most

:30:58.:31:02.

supporters of improving living standards around the world,

:31:03.:31:08.

supporting OECD pulls on the lesser duty tariff is important. Making

:31:09.:31:14.

sure those communities that have a significant industry that is

:31:15.:31:18.

affected and making sure that the Government does more than it thinks

:31:19.:31:21.

it needs to do to support the communities is part of making sure

:31:22.:31:26.

our economy support those measures. I commend the Government for its

:31:27.:31:28.

actions and I will continue to support them. Mr Speaker, it is a

:31:29.:31:36.

pleasure to follow my colleague on the business Select Committee. I do

:31:37.:31:39.

not agree with many of what he said today. The rigour of his analysis

:31:40.:31:46.

and also the work of the committee makes the committee much sharper in

:31:47.:31:51.

what we do so I commend him. I also welcome this emergency debate

:31:52.:31:54.

because we are facing in the steel industry a real emergency and we are

:31:55.:31:58.

facing for some time. In the long term, we in the committee found

:31:59.:32:01.

going back 40 years successive governments have failed to value the

:32:02.:32:05.

importance of manufacturing and domestic steel-making capability as

:32:06.:32:11.

the fountain missions -- like as the foundations of our economy. Other

:32:12.:32:16.

countries have valued their domestic steel industry more than we have

:32:17.:32:20.

which has made them more resilient to this perfect storm currently

:32:21.:32:27.

effecting global steel markets about overproduction. I want to put on the

:32:28.:32:33.

record that the challenges facing all steel manufacturers around the

:32:34.:32:37.

world are vast. Let me just say, China more or less produces more

:32:38.:32:42.

steel than every other steel-making manufacturing nation are put

:32:43.:32:46.

together. In two years, China has produced more steel than we as the

:32:47.:32:53.

inventor of modern steel-making, has produced since the start of the

:32:54.:32:57.

Industrial Revolution so even if the Government was doing all that it

:32:58.:33:01.

could, those challenges remain fast, but having said that, I do think the

:33:02.:33:04.

Government can be doing more because I think Britain does face an unlevel

:33:05.:33:09.

playing field in respect of steel production in the form of a -- in

:33:10.:33:21.

the form of high energy costs. The Government can have an effect on

:33:22.:33:25.

that. We on the business Select Committee published report about the

:33:26.:33:30.

Government response to the steel crisis in December. That was

:33:31.:33:33.

prompted by big turbulence, particularly the close of the steel

:33:34.:33:40.

plant in Redcar. What that revealed was a shocking ineffectiveness of an

:33:41.:33:45.

early warning system in Whitehall designed to detect mounting problems

:33:46.:33:48.

in the industry. The industry has been crying out about procurement

:33:49.:33:52.

and business rates and energy costs for some time but the Government had

:33:53.:33:57.

been deaf to these please. If fit had been alert, it would not have to

:33:58.:34:02.

resort to crisis management and preside over the closure of the

:34:03.:34:06.

second most efficient blast furnace anywhere in Europe and the loss and

:34:07.:34:12.

it is the lost forever of the steel industry of jobs and skills. We also

:34:13.:34:17.

found on the Select Committee report that the Government recognises the

:34:18.:34:24.

steel industry is of vital importance but giving increased

:34:25.:34:26.

activity, the increased activity had not yet translated into measurable

:34:27.:34:32.

impact for those in the industry and those communities they sustain. Five

:34:33.:34:35.

months on from the closure of the Redcar plant and with other closures

:34:36.:34:40.

and with the decision last month by Tata Steel to close its UK

:34:41.:34:43.

operations, I think it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that those

:34:44.:34:47.

lessons have not been learned and that increased activity has not

:34:48.:34:51.

resulted in positive outcomes. He talks about the absence of an early

:34:52.:34:55.

warning system. Does he have any concerns in his capacity as chair of

:34:56.:34:59.

the business Select Committee that there is insufficient capacity

:35:00.:35:01.

within the Department itself to respond to these challenges as they

:35:02.:35:04.

emerge on the world markets? I think my honourable friend pics an

:35:05.:35:07.

interesting point there because in terms of what the Department should

:35:08.:35:11.

be doing, which is essentially looking out for the British economy,

:35:12.:35:15.

making sure that it is really the Department of future economic

:35:16.:35:19.

growth, it needs to have the capacity within the civil service to

:35:20.:35:21.

be able to do that and the proposal to lose 30-40% of its headcount will

:35:22.:35:29.

have enormous consequences in terms of having those early warning

:35:30.:35:31.

systems and in terms of the expertise and the knowledge. Steel

:35:32.:35:36.

industries and other key sectors in order to make sure that Britain can

:35:37.:35:40.

thrive. The Secretary of State will today and yesterday in his statement

:35:41.:35:43.

stated that he was aware that Tata Steel was planning to hard close its

:35:44.:35:49.

steel operations in Port Talbot and elsewhere, but he prevented that

:35:50.:35:51.

from happening. Sophie was fully aware of the enormity of the crisis

:35:52.:35:55.

committee still flew to Australia rather than Mumbai. The evidence has

:35:56.:35:59.

to suggest the conclusion, Mr Speaker, that he was left blindsided

:36:00.:36:04.

by Tata Steel's decision which again demonstrates that no effective early

:36:05.:36:07.

warning systems were in place. The Secretary of State should have gone

:36:08.:36:16.

out to bat with Tata Steel and bat for British steel-making. The fact

:36:17.:36:19.

that he subsequently went on by, days after that keyboard meeting,

:36:20.:36:23.

shows that he had known he had made an earlier error and I have to say

:36:24.:36:29.

the contract has to be made with the events of 2012 when Vince Cable,

:36:30.:36:33.

when he was Business Secretary, went to New York to persuade General

:36:34.:36:36.

Motors to make a long-term commitment to the UK despite

:36:37.:36:39.

overcapacity in carmaking operations in Europe which were loss-making and

:36:40.:36:45.

as a result of the close partnership between Government of the time,

:36:46.:36:49.

trade unions, and local management, General Motors close a plant in

:36:50.:36:53.

Germany and committed to build the new car in the UK and given the

:36:54.:36:59.

great industrial relations in steel, fantastic trade unions, exceptional

:37:00.:37:01.

steelworkers and committed local management, why can't this model be

:37:02.:37:07.

adopted for the steel industry? We have got to look to the future and

:37:08.:37:11.

to make sure that we have the sustainable steel industry. I have

:37:12.:37:15.

mentioned the existential threat to British steel-making, but it is

:37:16.:37:18.

important to recognise that steel should not be seen as an obsolete

:37:19.:37:23.

industry but one that is absolutely essential to much of British

:37:24.:37:26.

manufacturing. We should be honest about the challenges but we should

:37:27.:37:29.

not talk the industry down, which would hasten further the signing of

:37:30.:37:34.

the industry's death warrant. We all have a responsibility to ensure

:37:35.:37:37.

customers do not take flight. Government can help to a significant

:37:38.:37:40.

degree with regards to that. It has brought forward welcome changes to

:37:41.:37:43.

procurement rules which are favoured British meat steel and its products

:37:44.:37:49.

during the awarding of contracts, but something similar was announced

:37:50.:37:51.

in October following the steel summit but we have no real tangible

:37:52.:37:54.

evidence in the form of the contract is flowing into British companies

:37:55.:38:00.

and plans and. No single pound of value has been seen. I asked the

:38:01.:38:06.

Secretary of State about how urgently a collaboration was taking

:38:07.:38:15.

place. Will the Minister give further clarity on that?

:38:16.:38:20.

Steel-making plays a major part in the infrastructure of the country.

:38:21.:38:25.

The Government published on the 23rd of March the national infrastructure

:38:26.:38:29.

delivery plan. It has one reference to steel. Will the Government commit

:38:30.:38:32.

to talk to the Cabinet Office to make sure that more can be done?

:38:33.:38:38.

This is incredibly important both for my constituents and the future

:38:39.:38:40.

of British manufacturing. It is important that we move away from

:38:41.:38:44.

words into real, tangible action to safeguard British Steel.

:38:45.:38:49.

Thank you. It is a great pleasure to follow the member for Hartlepool,

:38:50.:38:59.

whose constituency also has a downstream Tartar production sites

:39:00.:39:02.

and we share that similarity. I share much of his concern. This is

:39:03.:39:09.

of much concern to families and call me alone. I think about them all the

:39:10.:39:17.

time in the work doing. To try and support those families in the steel

:39:18.:39:24.

industry in general. Ukip MVP, the Labour leader of the council and

:39:25.:39:27.

myself are working closely together to campaign on this issue. This is

:39:28.:39:32.

what people expect us to do and I was very pleased that the minister

:39:33.:39:35.

was able to come and join us last week. I'm also pleased to be working

:39:36.:39:42.

with other representatives. That relationship is very important.

:39:43.:39:46.

Their feedback helps me to participate in these debates and to

:39:47.:39:49.

put questions to ministers. And I think that needs to be replicated

:39:50.:39:53.

nationally. There's far too much knock-about at the moment. I want to

:39:54.:39:57.

see us getting around the table and working with unions, ministers and

:39:58.:40:01.

backbench MPs and employees to make sure we find solutions to these very

:40:02.:40:05.

pressing problems. And the bid it wasn't just useful last week, to

:40:06.:40:11.

meet the employees, but it is also useful to get a briefing on exactly

:40:12.:40:15.

where things stand. There was a clear message that came across. That

:40:16.:40:19.

was that it is not just money is needed, but it is also time and I

:40:20.:40:25.

think we need to bear that in mind as we head forward. And that leads

:40:26.:40:30.

me to the challenges it faces. The first one, so evidently, is the

:40:31.:40:34.

overarching challenge of dumping. These unfair and uncompetitive

:40:35.:40:39.

practices we are seeing are completely unacceptable. We have

:40:40.:40:43.

heard about Chinese dumping, but Russian dumping is of particular

:40:44.:40:48.

concern in Corby. We have also got a brilliant industry. The product as

:40:49.:40:52.

world leading in this country, but at the moment it cannot compete,

:40:53.:40:56.

because the playing field is uneven. That frames the whole debate. The

:40:57.:41:02.

Chinese objective in particular is very, very clear. It is to try and

:41:03.:41:10.

dominate the world market, put and other supplies out of business and

:41:11.:41:16.

then they can right price. Cheap steel may an attractive prospect for

:41:17.:41:26.

other industries. I think, as a whole, we need to take stock of that

:41:27.:41:30.

fact and I think we do need to respond with strong tariffs. I think

:41:31.:41:34.

we do need to try to eliminate some of the action President Obama has

:41:35.:41:39.

taken, for example. I will give way. He is making a compelling point on

:41:40.:41:43.

the issue of tariffs. These he agreed that it's not just the issue

:41:44.:41:47.

of how high you set the anti-dumping. It is also about the

:41:48.:41:57.

speed, the speed with which decisions are taken and in vetoing

:41:58.:42:03.

that the session, the government is also blocking an accelerated

:42:04.:42:06.

timetable for the position of anti-dumping duties. Thank you for

:42:07.:42:12.

the intervention. I take it we ought to have another look at the lesser

:42:13.:42:18.

duty rule. I think it's important to make our thinking fresh. But it is

:42:19.:42:24.

about... The point is that the speed as informant money the frustrations

:42:25.:42:27.

I was going to come onto is the amount of time it took the European

:42:28.:42:33.

Commission to approve the energy compensation package last year. That

:42:34.:42:38.

was unacceptable. -- is as important. I will give way. Thank

:42:39.:42:47.

you. I know that he was three times last week... He was at the Corby

:42:48.:42:51.

steelworks. But he agreed with the Right Honourable member for

:42:52.:42:55.

Sheffield Hallam when he criticised the European Union for being slow

:42:56.:42:59.

and an effective in dealing with the steel industry? Well, the former

:43:00.:43:05.

Deputy Prime Minister knows more than most how inefficient the

:43:06.:43:09.

European Union is. I'm not going to give way, because I am aware of the

:43:10.:43:15.

time. I want to touch on the fact that we need to get the tariffs

:43:16.:43:20.

right, but we also need to look for another argument being made. I take

:43:21.:43:23.

the view that if the Chinese are not going to play by the rules, they

:43:24.:43:27.

shouldn't be allowed to have market economy status. I do hope that the

:43:28.:43:33.

European Union reaches that conclusion as well. An energy costs,

:43:34.:43:37.

we have heard a lot in recent years about climate change. I think we

:43:38.:43:41.

need to be constantly thinking about the consequences of the policies we

:43:42.:43:48.

bring. Government cannot act in silent mentality. It's constantly

:43:49.:43:52.

got to be looking at the implications of energy policy. We

:43:53.:43:56.

must always bear that in mind and I welcome the compensation package an

:43:57.:43:59.

energy that I alluded to a little while ago. They take months to

:44:00.:44:11.

improve. Also mentioned yesterday was measures around exempting. We

:44:12.:44:14.

were hearing about potential delays in that. I would be interested in

:44:15.:44:19.

final remarks to understand what the situation is and where we are with

:44:20.:44:23.

that. I do think that that is an important step forward. On

:44:24.:44:26.

procurement, I happen to take the view that we ought to get much more

:44:27.:44:31.

tough on this. We have seen some really positive steps forward, but

:44:32.:44:35.

it is simply unacceptable, to my mind, to any public bobby is not to

:44:36.:44:46.

be using British Steel at that time. -- any public bodies. You must make

:44:47.:44:51.

sure our procurement policy reflects this. The point about the integrity

:44:52.:44:57.

of the order book is also important. Also the integrity of supply chains

:44:58.:45:01.

is important. We need them to keep supplying and buyers to keep on

:45:02.:45:06.

buying. Business rates, at the time we are trying to find investment and

:45:07.:45:10.

someone to buy the Corby site and other sites that they own at the

:45:11.:45:16.

moment, it makes little sense to investors when they step up to the

:45:17.:45:22.

mark, before buying it can't or portfolio, but we are then asking

:45:23.:45:26.

them to invest and penalised but investment the moment it is made. It

:45:27.:45:32.

makes little sense. I advocate the business rates holiday before the

:45:33.:45:36.

budget, and others like them to have another look at that. It shows

:45:37.:45:40.

confidence the government is backing the industry and we are all coming

:45:41.:45:45.

together. It is a bizarre anomaly. I happen to take the view that, in

:45:46.:45:49.

relation to finding a buyer for these Tata Steel site, for these

:45:50.:45:53.

options being on the table, we should not rule anything out. I know

:45:54.:45:59.

people say I am a free-market conservative, but the fact is that

:46:00.:46:02.

our steel industry is not competing on a level playing field and that

:46:03.:46:06.

requires action that doesn't necessarily go along the normal

:46:07.:46:09.

grain. So we shouldn't rule anything out and I take the view that if a

:46:10.:46:14.

short period of public ownership is required in order to find a buyer,

:46:15.:46:21.

that is exactly what we should do. That's absolutely right. And I want

:46:22.:46:25.

to hear more later on to ascertain what ministers are thinking on that

:46:26.:46:30.

particular point. But along the way, in trying to reach that point, we

:46:31.:46:35.

mustn't let state aid rules get away. They get in the way, we should

:46:36.:46:40.

simply ignore them and get what is right by the steel industry. That is

:46:41.:46:45.

the message Corby expect me to convey. Thank you. Can I thank you

:46:46.:46:53.

for granting this very important debate, in particular because I do

:46:54.:46:57.

have 900 very good quality jobs on the line in stocks bridge. I support

:46:58.:47:05.

everything my friend on front bench said earlier and I'm not going to

:47:06.:47:11.

rehearse the usual issues that have been tabulated so far and so ably by

:47:12.:47:17.

so many speakers. Energy costs and business rates included. I will not

:47:18.:47:25.

talk about co-investment. I want to focus on the issue of confidence. In

:47:26.:47:30.

the future of the steel industry, because this is a really serious

:47:31.:47:34.

issue and we are at risk of seeing the industry undermined by people

:47:35.:47:41.

who are posing as an expert in the field, commentators in the print

:47:42.:47:43.

media for instance, who are giving the impression that the steel

:47:44.:47:47.

industry today is done. It is not done, it has got a great future. One

:47:48.:47:57.

said... This is not an ideological attack they said last week...

:47:58.:48:06.

"Unlike German plants, UK plants have tended to produce a basic

:48:07.:48:11.

products, using out of date technology." I just want to put on

:48:12.:48:15.

the record that in every Formula 1 car in this country, apart from

:48:16.:48:21.

Ferrari, every Formula 1 car made has a bit of stocks bridge steel in

:48:22.:48:30.

it. Every aircraft in this guy has this stealing it. It is this steel

:48:31.:48:39.

that land the plane safely. They keep the aircraft in the sky and we

:48:40.:48:42.

should be very proud and we are incredibly proud in Stocksbridge and

:48:43.:48:49.

what we do. And that workforce is passionate about its future and

:48:50.:48:54.

intends to have a long-term future, but it needs the government to

:48:55.:48:59.

support it. -- Stocksbridge. I want to go on to illustrate the other

:49:00.:49:05.

thing is doing. We have just secured ?50 million worth of investment, so

:49:06.:49:12.

we can make the steel and we mounted in order to make even purer steel.

:49:13.:49:20.

So we can go further up the value chain. Also to correct, Stocksbridge

:49:21.:49:27.

is not a downstream operation. Tata Steel makes its own steel and remote

:49:28.:49:33.

set and makes some of the best in the world. One involves making

:49:34.:49:41.

powdered steel, which is worth 30,000 to ?40,000 per tonne. If we

:49:42.:49:44.

get investment for that, the plan that will go on the side of the

:49:45.:49:52.

other plan, our future is spectacular, so we must secure it. I

:49:53.:49:57.

make this point in relation to all the Tata Steel plant at risk. People

:49:58.:50:06.

say let's go specialised. Actually, Stocksbridge is very specialised,

:50:07.:50:11.

but the steel made at Port Talbot is specialised and high quality. It is

:50:12.:50:14.

a different type of steel, made according to a different progress

:50:15.:50:21.

Tabeen-macro process. But it is still fantastic and good quality. We

:50:22.:50:25.

make some of the best steel in the world. -- a different process. Too

:50:26.:50:31.

many commentators are focusing on steel as an industry of the past. It

:50:32.:50:38.

is an industry of the future. And I finish by looking at the reports

:50:39.:50:47.

recently published, which made it clear that manufacturing will be

:50:48.:50:53.

transformed by 2050, in the next 30 years. The future of our

:50:54.:50:59.

manufacturing industry is focused on adaptability, in terms of the

:51:00.:51:05.

rapidly changing infrastructure. The steel industry is very well placed

:51:06.:51:09.

to do that. Tata Steel has been completely focused on doing that. It

:51:10.:51:14.

just needs support to get there. Maybe the new owner will need

:51:15.:51:19.

support. It also made clear that we need shorter and more integrated

:51:20.:51:23.

supply chains. That is because of issues relating to quality and

:51:24.:51:30.

safety. Our steel industry delivers that, aerospace, Airbus and Boeing

:51:31.:51:38.

know they need those integrated short supply chains. They get

:51:39.:51:42.

nervous if they are disrupted. That's why we need to maintain

:51:43.:51:46.

confidence and I: the government to play its part by doing whatever it

:51:47.:51:56.

can, whatever it needs to do to save our steel. -- I call on the

:51:57.:52:02.

government. Steel is a huge part of the economy in my hometown Newport

:52:03.:52:08.

and my first job was in part of British Steel and I'm declaring an

:52:09.:52:13.

interest as British steel pensioner, but I'm not sure how much that will

:52:14.:52:17.

be worth after this. Other members have spoken well and I think it

:52:18.:52:23.

was... I've forgotten who was, it was the member for Hartlepool who

:52:24.:52:27.

made the point about the fundamental problem here, which is the vast

:52:28.:52:31.

amount of steel that has been coming into the marketplace since about

:52:32.:52:35.

2008 from China and the fact the demand for it isn't fair. In

:52:36.:52:39.

reality, I think the gentleman made the point that nobody can do

:52:40.:52:42.

anything about that problem, but there are certainly think the

:52:43.:52:47.

government could be doing to help. Tata Steel was losing around ?1

:52:48.:52:55.

million a day if you weeks ago. And there are things the government

:52:56.:52:58.

could be doing. And I'm you not think they are doing enough. I will

:52:59.:53:03.

not abandon my words today. One of the problems we have is that there

:53:04.:53:07.

has been a lack of consistency on all sides of the house. We need to

:53:08.:53:13.

ask ourselves whether or not we need to have heavy manufacturing

:53:14.:53:17.

industries in this country. -- we want to have. I think the answer is

:53:18.:53:22.

yes, but if that is the case, then we have to ask, why is it that over

:53:23.:53:31.

the last few years, governments have all enacted policies that have made

:53:32.:53:36.

it much harder for heavy industry to continue? They have swallowed the

:53:37.:53:40.

idea that carbon dioxide is a pollutant, which is causing runaway

:53:41.:53:44.

global warming and they have enacted a series of policies that have made

:53:45.:53:48.

it very expensive for any industry that emits CO2 and have made it very

:53:49.:53:54.

expensive for heavy manufacturers to buy energy. We have brought in new

:53:55.:54:00.

measures and we now have the highest energy costs within Europe. This is

:54:01.:54:05.

a point that was being made to us in the committee by both manufacturers

:54:06.:54:10.

and the unions. It may not resolve the fundamental question, but it

:54:11.:54:15.

could make the difference between a profitable industry or not. It may

:54:16.:54:18.

make the difference for a company like Tata Steel.

:54:19.:54:24.

It is very important that we think about things in a consistent

:54:25.:54:33.

fashion. I have two, to be quite honest, I do not buy the argument

:54:34.:54:36.

that carbon dioxide is causing runaway global warming. I have

:54:37.:54:42.

spoken about it before but the correlation between the very tiny

:54:43.:54:45.

increase in temperature that we have simply does not exist and therefore

:54:46.:54:49.

I think the Government needs to rethink their policy. What we have

:54:50.:54:54.

actually had is a situation where instead of deciding to get rid of

:54:55.:54:57.

the carbon taxes that have helped to create the problem in the first

:54:58.:55:01.

place, carbon taxes and energy taxes that have been supported by

:55:02.:55:05.

governments and MPs of all parties, may I say, instead of doing that,

:55:06.:55:08.

the Government have brought forward a compensation package. It is all

:55:09.:55:12.

right as far as it goes. It had to go through a bureaucratic

:55:13.:55:14.

steeplechase within the EU which members on all sides also support

:55:15.:55:19.

and which I certainly do not. Having got there in the end and with the

:55:20.:55:25.

first checks going out as we speak, what have we actually done? We have

:55:26.:55:29.

levied a huge tax on an industry and now we are going to give something

:55:30.:55:33.

back to them the taxes are having the exact impact that we thought it

:55:34.:55:36.

would have, which is to punish them. Surely it would be much more

:55:37.:55:41.

sensible and I put this to the honourable lady, to scrap the carbon

:55:42.:55:45.

taxes in the first place? There is not much point in having a tax if

:55:46.:55:48.

one is going to have to compensate people for the effect that that

:55:49.:55:56.

taxes having. I will give way. He is making a very powerful speech. Could

:55:57.:55:59.

he explain how our industry is supposed to compete with those on

:56:00.:56:05.

the continentals when the energy price is up to twice of what we --

:56:06.:56:11.

of what they pay? I think the honourable gentleman makes a very

:56:12.:56:16.

important point indeed but of course if people truly believe that carbon

:56:17.:56:20.

dioxide is a pollutant and is causing runaway global warming, then

:56:21.:56:22.

I suppose they should stand up and take a bow and explain to those

:56:23.:56:26.

steelworkers that's the price of losing their job is worse -- is

:56:27.:56:31.

worth paying in order to stop the minute amount of increase in

:56:32.:56:36.

temperatures that we have and we're not at any increase in temperature

:56:37.:56:39.

for about 17 years and I think the whole thing is absolute nonsense. I

:56:40.:56:42.

think what we should be saying is that of course we want heavy

:56:43.:56:46.

manufacturing industries in this country and it is not the steel that

:56:47.:56:49.

is threatened and it is not just Tata Steel because the honourable

:56:50.:56:52.

lady will be aware that another steel manufacturer in South Wales

:56:53.:56:56.

have said that they may face severe economic problems unless something

:56:57.:57:04.

is done about high energy prices. The head of liberty house has said

:57:05.:57:08.

that we had to scrap the high energy price. It is glass, it is chemicals,

:57:09.:57:13.

it is cement, it is all sorts heavy manufacturing industries. If people

:57:14.:57:18.

believe that these industries are polluting the atmosphere and causing

:57:19.:57:21.

a great increase in temperature that we have not seen any evidence of for

:57:22.:57:25.

17 years, then they are doing exactly the right thing. I think

:57:26.:57:28.

that all of them including the Government are doing the wrong thing

:57:29.:57:31.

and it is high time that we stop trying to tax our manufacturing

:57:32.:57:35.

industries, stop taking tax away from companies that could be

:57:36.:57:39.

profitable and handing them over to expensive wind farms generating

:57:40.:57:42.

validity at two or three times the cost of market rates, particularly

:57:43.:57:45.

when those same went for companies are not even willing to buy steel

:57:46.:57:49.

this country and import the whole thing. The honourable lady in

:57:50.:57:53.

committee described the policy as barmy, and I think she was right

:57:54.:57:56.

although I think she was probably been far too polite about it. I do

:57:57.:58:01.

not have any problem at all with carbon dioxide being emitted. I want

:58:02.:58:04.

to see a heavy Manufacturing industry in this company. I want to

:58:05.:58:12.

see lots of jobs, low taxation and I am personally relaxed about carbon

:58:13.:58:16.

dioxide emissions. This is not just about the obvious news stories

:58:17.:58:23.

running on Port Talbot or indeed the industry. It involves all of the

:58:24.:58:35.

various sites. It is a UK steel crisis and I want to reiterate today

:58:36.:58:39.

that Tata Steel has to behave like a responsible seller. We need to

:58:40.:58:47.

remind them that previous managers tried to use skulduggery. We don't

:58:48.:58:54.

solve that problem but it took over two years, to use where there was

:58:55.:58:59.

not one single redundancy, but we need to remind Tata Steel of that

:59:00.:59:03.

previous behaviour and not to see it happen again. British Steel is not a

:59:04.:59:08.

basket case. It is not a field industry. It is not a sunset

:59:09.:59:11.

industry. It is a very successful industry and the evidence recently

:59:12.:59:20.

shows that. Integral parts to any programme or Trident renewal. This

:59:21.:59:35.

many steel plants in France have been sold off to Greybull. This

:59:36.:59:43.

demonstrates the European aspect of this problem. British Steel has

:59:44.:59:56.

always relied on its quality, its research and development. Places

:59:57.:00:03.

like Teesside and Grangetown down in rather and Sheffield 's have

:00:04.:00:12.

capacity linked with blast furnaces which gives us the ability as a

:00:13.:00:15.

nation do have control over the destiny of the metallurgy in our

:00:16.:00:20.

nation which means that we can innovate new products and that has

:00:21.:00:24.

to be remembered and retained and what I am interested in is the

:00:25.:00:31.

notion of co-investment. Whether that be in cash terms, whether it be

:00:32.:00:36.

equity stake, whether it be a loan, or more importantly whether it be

:00:37.:00:41.

about Government policy or indeed research and development, and I

:00:42.:00:44.

think if we are going to have a real discussion in this place we have to

:00:45.:00:47.

look at the different options around co-investment. Not taking into

:00:48.:00:53.

account individual commercial parties that may be interested in

:00:54.:00:56.

purchasing but the ideas on the tables or that we can naturally plan

:00:57.:00:59.

and industrial strategy about forward planning and win it takes is

:01:00.:01:02.

because we have not done that in the last five years. In relation to

:01:03.:01:07.

Chinese dumping, this is a new phenomenon. It has been going on for

:01:08.:01:11.

four and a half years. Prior to that, it was not happening. That is

:01:12.:01:17.

why changes to how Government behaves in relation to lesser duty

:01:18.:01:21.

tariffs or other legislation has to happen now because the circumstances

:01:22.:01:27.

are now particular and have changed. They are completely new. There are

:01:28.:01:32.

no residents. This is why we cannot stick to rigid dogma or analytical

:01:33.:01:36.

argument around the rules. I also have to question in relation to

:01:37.:01:40.

co-investment whether we are properly looking at things like

:01:41.:01:44.

shale gas and whether parties are being honesty about the policy of

:01:45.:01:47.

shale gas because these are gas intensive industries. CCS pulled the

:01:48.:02:00.

rug from under me energy intensive industries. How are you going to

:02:01.:02:07.

maintain those industries, whether it be shale or light or class or

:02:08.:02:11.

cement or bricks, how are you going to do that without a proper strategy

:02:12.:02:16.

around carbon? If you're going to implement the taxes or unilaterally

:02:17.:02:20.

bring in the carbon price form in the budget and promise to give

:02:21.:02:25.

compensation for, that has to go to the EU because it needs to calculate

:02:26.:02:29.

the fact that if it wants to compensate for unilateral British

:02:30.:02:32.

tax it can only do so by the European Union. It has not done the

:02:33.:02:38.

requisite work. It just applied a rule and is now reaping the

:02:39.:02:43.

consequences. Ultimately, for Port Talbot and for every single site, we

:02:44.:02:47.

need time. Redcar in 2010 was saved over two years. Guess if I had six

:02:48.:02:57.

weeks and failed. You have to give those British Tata Steel sites time

:02:58.:03:04.

in order to be saved. -- SSI. On the issue of time. And co-investment.

:03:05.:03:14.

One form of co-investment would be the Government to provide a bridging

:03:15.:03:19.

loan that extends beyond the period that Tata Steel would be prepared to

:03:20.:03:23.

subsidise the steelworks until a future buyer would be found. Is that

:03:24.:03:26.

the sort of co-investment that he is considering? I thank the honourable

:03:27.:03:31.

gentleman his intervention and giving me more time. Another pillar

:03:32.:03:40.

of this in much the same way is continued production. If we are

:03:41.:03:44.

going to save the site is, production has to be held

:03:45.:03:49.

continuously throughout. Mainly around issues about losing skills

:03:50.:03:54.

and the Redcar example in 2010 when the then regional development agency

:03:55.:03:59.

of the North East alongside Government agencies in Whitehall but

:04:00.:04:03.

forward a ?60 million package which was actually from the budgeted for

:04:04.:04:06.

the regional development agency as well as central Government and

:04:07.:04:09.

actually retained people in the area on training courses whilst, as I was

:04:10.:04:16.

a union officer then worked trying to negotiate with other parties to

:04:17.:04:22.

get outside box and it is vitally important that continuous production

:04:23.:04:30.

and time but also other elements of co-investment not just the cash

:04:31.:04:35.

allowance. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I'm very grateful for the

:04:36.:04:41.

opportunity to speak in this extremely important debate. Can I

:04:42.:04:44.

begin by thanking the Secretary of State and his team for keeping the

:04:45.:04:47.

house informed and in particular for continuous contact with myself and

:04:48.:04:52.

other members and for the extremely constructive way that the Government

:04:53.:04:57.

has worked this far? And quite rightly closely with the unions and

:04:58.:05:00.

other parties and certainly I have two congratulate the community union

:05:01.:05:07.

when they gave evidence to the Welsh committee it was very impressive

:05:08.:05:11.

indeed and those representatives that were here yesterday and I am

:05:12.:05:14.

pleased that the Government has kept in contact to ensure that everybody

:05:15.:05:18.

has been kept informed at every stage because this is about

:05:19.:05:25.

livelihoods and as someone who grew up in the area, I recognise the

:05:26.:05:32.

importance to the families in my constituency, not just the steel

:05:33.:05:36.

industry, also the supply chain and the stockholders and indeed the

:05:37.:05:39.

maintenance companies that look after the steelworks in Port Talbot.

:05:40.:05:44.

There was a very interesting announcement from the Government

:05:45.:05:49.

yesterday about the buyer which highlights the Government's

:05:50.:05:53.

commitment to the people who work at Port Talbot. This, however, was

:05:54.:05:56.

helping to ensure the survival of the steelworks demonstrates the need

:05:57.:06:00.

to work on a vast number of issues, many of which have been mentioned

:06:01.:06:03.

today and in the last week to ensure a viable, long-term future for the

:06:04.:06:08.

industry. It is crucial that we work here in this chamber as parties

:06:09.:06:11.

working alongside one another and going a lot beyond party politics to

:06:12.:06:16.

ensure the survival of steel at Port Talbot and I would like to discuss

:06:17.:06:23.

briefly this. These are areas that we need to look at as part of our

:06:24.:06:28.

long-term strategy will stop that is the use of British Steel and into

:06:29.:06:31.

such a project and I know there are rules and guidelines on this but we

:06:32.:06:33.

must think strategically about our use of steel. The increased

:06:34.:06:40.

investment in infrastructure by this Government means that British Steel

:06:41.:06:42.

has had more opportunities to be used and therefore support workers,

:06:43.:06:47.

their families, and our communities, and examples include the National

:06:48.:06:52.

rail which uses 90% of British Steel and Crossrail. Aircraft carriers

:06:53.:07:01.

procured by the Government, as we have heard, use something like 94%

:07:02.:07:08.

of British Steel and of course the electrocution of the real down to

:07:09.:07:16.

Swansea -- rail. We need to make sure that our investment - very

:07:17.:07:20.

closely with the use of British Steel and I was extremely pleased

:07:21.:07:25.

when this Government and my right honourable friend the Chancellor of

:07:26.:07:27.

the Exchequer said at the national infrastructure commission which

:07:28.:07:29.

gives this country the interest of two to support future economic

:07:30.:07:35.

growth. However, I do ask whether the commission will be looking to

:07:36.:07:40.

examine how projects could make use of British materials such as steel

:07:41.:07:43.

in supporting these vital industries. It is infrastructure

:07:44.:07:48.

projects that support local families, businesses and

:07:49.:07:51.

communities. From the copy shop to the hairdressers and the Bakers,

:07:52.:07:56.

businesses across South Wales and particularly the South Swansea Bay

:07:57.:07:58.

region are concerned about their future. We need to look at a

:07:59.:08:03.

long-term solution to keep this industry viable for South Wales. A

:08:04.:08:06.

joint strategy that supports the economic growth of the region could

:08:07.:08:10.

be looking at projects like the Swansea Bay lagoon which would not

:08:11.:08:13.

only add jobs but it would be the type of infrastructure project that

:08:14.:08:18.

would continue to support those workers and their families just

:08:19.:08:21.

across the bay in Port Talbot. We must work together. Political

:08:22.:08:27.

grandstanding will not provide a long-term, viable future for steel

:08:28.:08:31.

production in Port Talbot. Political grandstanding will not support

:08:32.:08:34.

businesses in the supply chain across South Wales. The history of

:08:35.:08:38.

steel in our communities runs deeper than a political point scoring. It

:08:39.:08:43.

causes confusion and only last week I spoke with a lady from Citylink

:08:44.:08:47.

who was a Tata Steel employee and as is her husband and both were

:08:48.:08:52.

disappointed by the political rhetoric from certain quarters.

:08:53.:08:56.

We have a shared history and experience. Our communities and

:08:57.:09:03.

social fabric have been built or touched by the steel industry. Only

:09:04.:09:08.

by working as one can we provide a future we all want. Politicians who

:09:09.:09:14.

grandstand, in attempting to ingratiate themselves will not help.

:09:15.:09:22.

We need action. I applaud the actions to date and I look forward

:09:23.:09:26.

to a very positive outcome for the people of Port Talbot and many

:09:27.:09:31.

employees who reside in my constituency. They came as no

:09:32.:09:39.

supplies to us on these benches. We have been warning the government for

:09:40.:09:44.

months this was coming, but they chose to do nothing. The Secretary

:09:45.:09:47.

of State was on the other side of the world when the announcement came

:09:48.:09:51.

and now clings to the announcement came and now clings to be claim that

:09:52.:09:55.

he somehow saved a plant from Australia. Too little, too late, as

:09:56.:10:00.

the workers at Redcar found out from this government and as my friend on

:10:01.:10:08.

the front bench has said, warm words and no actions. This now affects the

:10:09.:10:12.

whole of the industry, not only Port Talbot. The media has a habit of

:10:13.:10:20.

describing it all as "Loss-making. " For a loss of the plants, that is

:10:21.:10:29.

far from the truth. Shotton steel is a profitable business that employs

:10:30.:10:34.

800 people, quality jobs that are vital to the economy. Profitable

:10:35.:10:41.

though it may be, that does not ensures long-term survival. It

:10:42.:10:46.

relies on its steel from the Port Talbot operation. If it was to close

:10:47.:10:50.

sooner rather than later, then it would not be long before Shotton

:10:51.:10:55.

would have had to cease its operation, due to lack of supply.

:10:56.:11:00.

The idea that you can just pick up the phone and buy lots of cheap

:11:01.:11:07.

steel, from China or anywhere else, to the quality and quantity you

:11:08.:11:12.

would need for a plantlike Shotton is far from reality. So for the

:11:13.:11:18.

future, point I made yesterday was we need time and a lot of it and I

:11:19.:11:21.

think this is a common theme that colleagues on both sides of this

:11:22.:11:26.

house are saying. Time to either find a buyer for the whole of the UK

:11:27.:11:31.

business that will invest and commit to the future, but also to allow the

:11:32.:11:38.

downstream businesses to find an alternative supplier of steel,

:11:39.:11:42.

should the worst happen. I do not want to see that, but the government

:11:43.:11:47.

has to plan for all scenarios. And, as many other colleagues have said,

:11:48.:11:54.

we had to reassure the customer base as well. If that is not done, we

:11:55.:12:00.

have no business is to sell, because customers will leave and will walk

:12:01.:12:04.

away. They need assurances. Shotton probably more than anywhere else

:12:05.:12:08.

knows the impact of job losses in industry. In 1980, despite gallant

:12:09.:12:14.

efforts of my predecessors and the trade unions, it saw its steel

:12:15.:12:20.

making cease and over 6000 people lost their jobs. At the time, it was

:12:21.:12:26.

the largest job loss at a single plant in a single day anywhere in

:12:27.:12:32.

the history of western Europe. While the area has recovered and new

:12:33.:12:36.

employees have moved in and have grown, the scars of the events of

:12:37.:12:42.

1980 remain. On Deeside, nearly everybody has a family member or a

:12:43.:12:47.

friend who worked in the industry. Some people never worked again. The

:12:48.:12:54.

lessons are that such large-scale job losses do not only affect the

:12:55.:12:58.

individuals that work there, they affect their families and the whole

:12:59.:13:03.

area. They destroy whole communities. And that's for many

:13:04.:13:07.

years to come. The government has an opportunity to save the industry and

:13:08.:13:12.

ensure its long-term future, but he really needs to act and needs to act

:13:13.:13:25.

now. -- it needs to act. We happy to important debate on this afternoon.

:13:26.:13:32.

As a steel group member, I am pleased that my friend has been able

:13:33.:13:37.

to secure this debate is now. But I wanted to gently reassure anybody

:13:38.:13:47.

going to campaign for the latest debate, that it will be a very long

:13:48.:13:51.

day for those who have travelled to get here. -- you will get your say.

:13:52.:13:58.

I know this feels like groundhog day, coming back time and time

:13:59.:14:05.

again. I understand the focus has been an Port Talbot and I praise the

:14:06.:14:12.

efforts of members, but it has been said before. Steel-making have

:14:13.:14:21.

seized in 2001 in Llanwern. Our steelworkers are proud to make UK

:14:22.:14:26.

steel and they want to continue to do so and are looking to this

:14:27.:14:29.

government is now to ensure that will happen. It has taken a

:14:30.:14:35.

cumulative hit over the past few years, hundreds of jobs being lost,

:14:36.:14:42.

to the point where we have 700 left. Some have transferred to Port Talbot

:14:43.:14:45.

in the process and now have a certainty there. -- now face

:14:46.:14:56.

uncertainty. Steel could have a great future. In Llanwern, we have

:14:57.:15:05.

the Zodiac line. It is doing well and the electrical steel, which

:15:06.:15:09.

produces high-tech electrical steel, they are in profit following a

:15:10.:15:15.

period of restructuring. Steel is cyclical and all of this

:15:16.:15:20.

demonstrates that. We have had much in the way of warm words and phrases

:15:21.:15:25.

and that has been said today. But what does that mean, practically?

:15:26.:15:33.

The arguments from unions are well rehearsed. They want to protect the

:15:34.:15:44.

order book to make sure businesses are saleable. And they are not

:15:45.:15:48.

undermined by any businesses elsewhere. Time for the sale, as the

:15:49.:15:54.

member mentioned earlier on, it's important to know what the timescale

:15:55.:15:59.

is. Long projects took nine months. Tata Steel said for months. The --

:16:00.:16:11.

what is the news to make sure Tata Steel are a responsible seller? I

:16:12.:16:15.

have many workers in my constituency and also pensioners. Can the

:16:16.:16:19.

government give those pensioners and future ones some reassurance about

:16:20.:16:24.

the pension fund and can he outlined the action the government is taking?

:16:25.:16:36.

Also relating to Chinese dumping, it is ironic that whilst ours has been

:16:37.:16:42.

slow to react, the Chinese government has just enforced 46%

:16:43.:16:47.

tariffs on electrical steel. While all works no longer export to China,

:16:48.:16:56.

other ones do. This could have implications. We have asked for

:16:57.:17:00.

action on energy prices, that took two years to deliver. Too slow. Real

:17:01.:17:08.

action on procurement, not just an owned by this note, what specific

:17:09.:17:12.

projects does the Minister have in mind? Can he tell us that today? The

:17:13.:17:18.

Welsh government has done all it can with the leaflet it has had at its

:17:19.:17:26.

disposal. That includes setting up task forces. I know how valuable

:17:27.:17:34.

that relationship is. There was some kind of reference to grandstanding.

:17:35.:17:40.

Can I assure that many steel group members here have raised the issue

:17:41.:17:44.

to do with steel time and time again in this chamber. It is not

:17:45.:17:48.

grandstanding, it is actually personal. It is personal, because

:17:49.:17:53.

our constituents are loyal and they work hard and we understand what

:17:54.:17:57.

they are going through and it is a valued job. It is also personal

:17:58.:18:03.

because I look around this chamber and icy the member for Cardiff West

:18:04.:18:14.

and others who works in the industry. -- I see. And my parents

:18:15.:18:20.

who met in the steel industry and they were workers. We cannot let our

:18:21.:18:24.

current workers down and we make no apology for speaking up. Thank you.

:18:25.:18:34.

And thank you to those who manage to get this permission. I am a member

:18:35.:18:43.

of... Or was a member of the Scottish steel task force, along

:18:44.:18:52.

with the member for Hamilton. He Scottish skill task force was a

:18:53.:18:57.

partnership of Tata Steel and trade unions and others. -- the Scottish

:18:58.:19:11.

scale task force. This task force was put together by the Scottish

:19:12.:19:20.

Government to help find a buyer for Scottish plants. It did a great job,

:19:21.:19:26.

as those of you may know. The handover took place on Friday. That

:19:27.:19:31.

was based on a back-to-back agreement, whereby the Scottish

:19:32.:19:35.

Government bought the plants from Tata Steel and sold them on to

:19:36.:19:40.

Liberty House. It was a wonderful day. We were surrounded by all the

:19:41.:19:46.

members of the task force and families and friends and

:19:47.:19:50.

steelworkers themselves. It was an emotional day. Steel is an iconic

:19:51.:19:54.

industry in my constituency. In fact, the industry in my

:19:55.:19:59.

constituency is responsible for some of the most specialised steel that

:20:00.:20:04.

is used in the defence industry, in the oil and gas industry as well. It

:20:05.:20:10.

couldn't be allowed to go under and the Scottish Government didn't allow

:20:11.:20:16.

that to happen. It took a very proactive approach to the threat.

:20:17.:20:21.

They did. They put forward legislation which introduced a

:20:22.:20:26.

one-year relief on business rates for prospective buyers. The assessor

:20:27.:20:31.

agreed to look at the state of the steel industry when revaluation

:20:32.:20:36.

takes place next year. The Scottish environment protection agency worked

:20:37.:20:40.

closely to make sure that any prospective buyer or anyone who is

:20:41.:20:44.

interested but the best possible advice. Sufficiently and quickly as

:20:45.:20:50.

well. The Scottish Government has also produced a new responsible

:20:51.:20:55.

procurement policy, echoing and better ring in some instances that

:20:56.:21:03.

has been done by the UK Government. -- in some circumstances. On energy

:21:04.:21:11.

costs, it is working to reduce consumption and cost. We were

:21:12.:21:19.

pleased that the EU cleared the energy package in December last

:21:20.:21:23.

year. That was after this government has prodded into action by the UK

:21:24.:21:32.

steel summit. Development Scotland developed a programme to retain key

:21:33.:21:38.

staff. Those were the very people who were there on Friday. Sanjeev

:21:39.:21:45.

Gupta of Liberty Steel said that the transfer of ownership couldn't have

:21:46.:21:49.

happened without the efforts of the Scottish Government. He has also

:21:50.:21:55.

indicated that 150 jobs will be created to get the plants back up

:21:56.:21:59.

and running again. Almost back to where we were. The UK Government

:22:00.:22:05.

cannot rely on helping workers after the event. It is their duty to be

:22:06.:22:11.

proactive, to be seen to be proactive in securing buyers for

:22:12.:22:15.

affected plants, following the Scottish Government model. Scottish

:22:16.:22:20.

Government phoned prospective buyers, kept in touch with the

:22:21.:22:28.

customer base and at the same time maintained business confidentiality.

:22:29.:22:30.

They can do it, you should be able to do it as well. The Scottish

:22:31.:22:37.

Government has also launched a manufacturing strategy only

:22:38.:22:43.

contemporary of this year. It proposes to boost the Scottish

:22:44.:22:48.

economy by investment and education in order for Scotland's business to

:22:49.:22:56.

compete globally. What are you doing in that regard? Finally, can I give

:22:57.:23:01.

a piece of advice to the Secretary of State? Speak to the Scottish

:23:02.:23:06.

Government to see how saving plants can be done, using actions, not

:23:07.:23:11.

words. As the First Minister said, the steps we have taken in

:23:12.:23:15.

Lanarkshire should give hope to those in other parts of the UK that,

:23:16.:23:22.

with the right support and a strong government, there can be a future

:23:23.:23:24.

for steel. There have always been the strongest

:23:25.:23:34.

links between my constituency and the steelworks at Newport and I

:23:35.:23:41.

speak today not only for the steelworkers but the many, many more

:23:42.:23:45.

steel pensioners including my father. But I echo what was said by

:23:46.:23:55.

my honourable friend the member for stocks bridge that the steel

:23:56.:23:58.

industry can and should have a great future. There are so many great

:23:59.:24:03.

things about our steel industry. It has always been an industry of

:24:04.:24:07.

working together, of working together between workers,

:24:08.:24:11.

management, unions, and owners. It is an industry that has some of the

:24:12.:24:17.

most skilled and committed workers you will find in any industry

:24:18.:24:24.

anywhere you go in the world. Mr Speaker, it is also an industry that

:24:25.:24:30.

I believe is vital to our national security. We cannot have a country

:24:31.:24:34.

that is secure unless it has a native steel industry available to

:24:35.:24:39.

us. We should not forget either that over many, many years of change, the

:24:40.:24:45.

steelworkers have been a constant. It is an industry that has gone

:24:46.:24:49.

through change. It was nationalised after World War II, most of it was

:24:50.:24:54.

re-privatised in the early 1950s, renationalise the game by the Wilson

:24:55.:24:58.

Government in the 60s, re-privatised again under the Thatcher Government,

:24:59.:25:02.

but the steelworkers have always shown their central commitment and

:25:03.:25:06.

demonstrated their skills during that time. It is unthinkable that

:25:07.:25:13.

there should be no steel-making at Port Talbot, just as it is

:25:14.:25:17.

unthinkable that we should not look at this as a UK wide problem. It

:25:18.:25:23.

seems to me that the Government has to look strategically at two things.

:25:24.:25:28.

First of all of what it is doing practically to support the sale

:25:29.:25:32.

process at Port Talbot. What it can do to support both aspects that we

:25:33.:25:38.

are now coming to, the expressions of interest and the due diligence

:25:39.:25:42.

period that will follow. But there are far wider questions about the

:25:43.:25:48.

Government being judged on its actions for what it actually does to

:25:49.:25:54.

help the steel industry. The lesser duty rule has been mentioned in

:25:55.:26:00.

number of times in this debate. Let's be clear. As long as it is in

:26:01.:26:05.

place, the duty that is going to be imposed is always going to be lower

:26:06.:26:08.

than the margin of the dumping. The European Commission wants to scrap

:26:09.:26:14.

the lesser duty rule. The World Trade Organisation rules do not even

:26:15.:26:20.

oblige the European Commission to apply the lesser duty rule. It is

:26:21.:26:27.

for the UK Government to make the case within the European Union for

:26:28.:26:31.

it to be scrapped, but of course the fact is that they are not doing it.

:26:32.:26:34.

The European steel Association spokesman said the fact is that the

:26:35.:26:41.

UK has been blocking us. They are not the only member state, but they

:26:42.:26:45.

are certainly the ringleader in blocking the lifting of the lesser

:26:46.:26:50.

duty rule. The ability to let this has actually been part of a proposal

:26:51.:26:55.

that the European Commission looked at in 2013. What has the Secretary

:26:56.:27:00.

of State done on this sense? The answer is absolutely nothing. There

:27:01.:27:04.

is then the issue of market economy status for China, and I thought that

:27:05.:27:09.

the chief executive of the biggest steel-maker in America put it best

:27:10.:27:17.

when he said this. But even the thinking of the granting of market

:27:18.:27:21.

economy status for China when you have all the evidence in place that

:27:22.:27:26.

denies them that right, it is just ridiculous. That is what the

:27:27.:27:29.

Secretary of State should be bearing in mind. Because he really does have

:27:30.:27:36.

a choice, Madam Deputy is bigger. Particularly when it comes to the

:27:37.:27:39.

lesser duty rule, when it comes to market economy status for China.

:27:40.:27:45.

Where do his loyalties lie? Do they lie with Beijing or do they lie with

:27:46.:27:50.

the steelworkers of this country? Wouldn't it be the most supreme

:27:51.:27:54.

irony if we had a Secretary of State supposedly wedded ideological 82

:27:55.:27:57.

free market who ends up granting market economy status to a country

:27:58.:28:02.

where 80% of its steel industry is owned by the state? Is that

:28:03.:28:07.

seriously what the Secretary of State is going to do? It is time he

:28:08.:28:14.

put aside the obsession with Beijing and acted for our steelworkers. I am

:28:15.:28:23.

grateful to my honourable friend for securing this debate. We on Teesside

:28:24.:28:26.

are still reeling from the Government standing by and allowing

:28:27.:28:31.

steel-making to die at the SSI plant at Redcar and people have very long

:28:32.:28:36.

memories and it will take more than six months to discover the concept

:28:37.:28:40.

of co-investment and it comes a little bit late but I do welcome the

:28:41.:28:45.

initiative in progressing those discussions from the unions to such

:28:46.:28:50.

a successful conclusion. This is the most bizarre set of circumstances

:28:51.:28:53.

when we are feeling the collapse of steel production in UK when we have

:28:54.:28:58.

the superb industry with a brilliantly skilled workforce, and

:28:59.:29:02.

excellent industrial relations history and it is therefore

:29:03.:29:04.

essential that we send the message up from here that we have a steel

:29:05.:29:07.

industry very much worth fighting for. We need to instil confidence in

:29:08.:29:12.

steel customers and suppliers like our steel operations are very much

:29:13.:29:18.

open for business. Steel had a bright future if we can get through

:29:19.:29:21.

these months. On that point of development goal -- I am grateful to

:29:22.:29:29.

the metals processing Institute for pointing out that two thirds of the

:29:30.:29:35.

steel being used today was not even invented 15 years ago and still

:29:36.:29:40.

remains a vital economic enabler for UK economic growth, without which

:29:41.:29:44.

our successful, high-value manufacturing sector simply could

:29:45.:29:48.

not exist. The automotive and aerospace defence, nuclear and real

:29:49.:29:51.

sectors all need the development of new steel in pursuit of ever

:29:52.:29:56.

improving productivity and our leading companies undoubtedly

:29:57.:29:59.

benefit from research partnerships with domestic steel producers. It

:30:00.:30:06.

goes on to say that the steel industry would disappear for ever

:30:07.:30:09.

and reliance on overseas producers would not only mean the loss of jobs

:30:10.:30:13.

but would also slow the pace of development and risk the offshore of

:30:14.:30:26.

the steel in history. The debate is more about Port Talbot. Even though

:30:27.:30:30.

that is very important. There is an overwhelmingly strong case for the

:30:31.:30:33.

continuation of steel-making at Port Talbot because they have advanced

:30:34.:30:38.

steel-making equipment, and experienced workforce and experience

:30:39.:30:42.

in making high-quality steel for Manufacturing applications. There is

:30:43.:30:45.

no doubt on these benches that the plant can compete and have a highly

:30:46.:30:48.

profitable future, but in addition there is a huge opportunity for new

:30:49.:30:54.

mini mill operations based around electric furnaces, utilising 100%

:30:55.:30:57.

recyclable materials and offering a change in improvement in carbon

:30:58.:31:04.

emissions are likely that the Government to consider all aspects

:31:05.:31:09.

of the future of UK steel. The exploitation and the commitment to

:31:10.:31:12.

innovation, research and development will undoubtedly pay rich dividends.

:31:13.:31:17.

There is a research and development proposal on the table and it will

:31:18.:31:21.

also average recently secured future investments would have been used to

:31:22.:31:27.

upgrade materials in Rotherham, set and Cambridge as well as the two

:31:28.:31:31.

sites in Tees Valley and I urge the Minister to look closely at it. The

:31:32.:31:34.

automated industry has been turned round to be an enormous success. We

:31:35.:31:38.

can do the same for the steel industry. So the timescale is

:31:39.:31:43.

crucial here. It is ridiculously tight. The kind of thing that could

:31:44.:31:49.

be said would be that the seller is being incredibly ambitious to think

:31:50.:31:52.

that such a process can be undertaken in such a short space of

:31:53.:31:57.

time. And crucially in the final analysis, the state would indeed

:31:58.:32:04.

step in and whether we call this temporary nationalisation or public

:32:05.:32:08.

sector stewardship or whatever you like, that would let the customers

:32:09.:32:12.

and suppliers and workers know that UK steel will sustain and not only

:32:13.:32:22.

will it sustain but it will thrive. In the middle of 2014, Tata Steel

:32:23.:32:27.

announced that it was going to dispose of its long products

:32:28.:32:32.

business. It has taken until this week for the conclusion of a process

:32:33.:32:35.

which has involved the interest of one buyer then pulling out and the

:32:36.:32:42.

work that everybody has done locally, trade unions, the

:32:43.:32:46.

management team, Tata Steel themselves, Greybull capital and

:32:47.:32:49.

suppliers. Suppliers have had to make a contribution in this as well.

:32:50.:32:53.

It is a tough direction forward. It is not completed yet and I welcome

:32:54.:32:58.

the Secretary of State's statement yesterday when he said that he would

:32:59.:33:02.

do everything possible to ensure that the matter is that still need

:33:03.:33:06.

to be resolved are resolved satisfactorily saw that this does go

:33:07.:33:09.

ahead and the future, which I believe will be a positive future,

:33:10.:33:13.

but will be different to the past, can happen which will be positive

:33:14.:33:20.

for all those communities across long products including those in

:33:21.:33:24.

Scunthorpe, the largest steelworks in England, which I am proud to

:33:25.:33:28.

represent. Of course, when the Secretary of State was first

:33:29.:33:31.

appointed to his rule, I wrote to him then because I knew the steel

:33:32.:33:36.

industry was facing a crisis, and I asked the meeting. Unfortunately, at

:33:37.:33:39.

that time, there were other pressures on his diary, though I did

:33:40.:33:43.

ask the Prime Minister back in September for a steel summit.

:33:44.:33:47.

Eyebrows raised on the benches opposite at that time, but to the

:33:48.:33:52.

credit of them, and the Secretary of State, we did get a steel summit in

:33:53.:33:56.

Rotherham and that did help in terms of focusing focusing on this issue

:33:57.:34:00.

but looking at the issues we have been arguing and I have been arguing

:34:01.:34:06.

for four or five years now on energy costs. Yes, the Government has

:34:07.:34:09.

moved, but it has been slow and laborious. And frankly, when you

:34:10.:34:14.

bring in the unilateral carbon for attacks and then find yourself in a

:34:15.:34:17.

mess in taking it off, and it has taken over three years and the money

:34:18.:34:21.

is only just getting in terms of mitigation into the coffers of

:34:22.:34:24.

steelworkers, that does not give the of message of confidence that we

:34:25.:34:29.

need to take this industry forward, but I welcome the Secretary of

:34:30.:34:32.

State's comments again today when he says he is looking at different ways

:34:33.:34:37.

of doing this by doing it by exemption rather than by the methods

:34:38.:34:41.

that are done at the moment so we are seeing movement and that

:34:42.:34:43.

movement needs to be welcomed. On business rates, it is deeply

:34:44.:34:49.

disappointing that the Chancellor was unable to bring us some good

:34:50.:34:52.

news in terms of movements on business rates and I believe that

:34:53.:34:55.

the Minister opposite has been fighting their corner on that by

:34:56.:35:00.

listening to the words that they have said many speeches, it is

:35:01.:35:03.

deeply disappointing that the Government at the highest level was

:35:04.:35:06.

unable to make a bit on that because that would have made a real

:35:07.:35:11.

difference. It is a difference when a larger plant in the Netherlands

:35:12.:35:15.

pays less business rates and the Scunthorpe plant days. That is not

:35:16.:35:21.

right. These are playing fields need to be levelled. On procurement, I

:35:22.:35:27.

very much welcome the Government producing these better guidelines,

:35:28.:35:30.

but as I have said all along, the proof of the pudding is in the

:35:31.:35:33.

eating. It is when these are tested. I point again to the issue of things

:35:34.:35:42.

like the energy developments of the Hornsey Project on the North Sea.

:35:43.:35:45.

This is happening because of the contract, the very generous

:35:46.:35:49.

contract, which the UK Government has given to this private sector

:35:50.:35:54.

company will stop so there is public money invested in this and frankly

:35:55.:35:57.

the energy company -- the energy coming out of that development will

:35:58.:36:01.

be paid for by UK taxpayers and UK energy bill payers. It would be

:36:02.:36:08.

outrageous, Madam Deputy Speaker, if it is not UK steel that is in those

:36:09.:36:16.

turbines that go up in the North Sea and I urge the Secretary of State to

:36:17.:36:21.

work tirelessly with his Cabinet colleagues to ensure that even where

:36:22.:36:28.

there are private companies who are delivering public projects, that

:36:29.:36:30.

they deliver for our steel industry in procurements. Finally, on Chinese

:36:31.:36:35.

dumping, much has been said. This is an area where I think the Secretary

:36:36.:36:41.

of State has moved and I welcome that. Again, it has been very slow.

:36:42.:36:46.

We have seen action and that action is to be approved. You'd hear from

:36:47.:36:56.

the whole steel community saying how important it is that the lesser duty

:36:57.:37:00.

rule is tackled and that would give a signal in terms of confidence.

:37:01.:37:04.

What this industry needs going forward more than anything else is

:37:05.:37:08.

confidence will stop not that we are just getting warm words but these

:37:09.:37:12.

warm words are supported by actions and actions that are prompts, not

:37:13.:37:21.

lacquered Lee. Save our steel. Whilst I thank the Shadow Business

:37:22.:37:25.

Secretary for securing this emergency debate today, I find

:37:26.:37:28.

myself asking how many times exactly are we going to have to debate the

:37:29.:37:34.

crisis facing the steel industry in the UK. Before the Government take

:37:35.:37:40.

it seriously. This crisis is not recently arrived unannounced. It has

:37:41.:37:44.

not sprung up overnight. The warning signs were there. There has been a

:37:45.:37:48.

constant siren of opposition voices for warning the Government that

:37:49.:37:52.

action was urgently needed. The steel industry has been collectively

:37:53.:37:57.

crying out for action to be taken. The all-party parliamentary group,

:37:58.:38:01.

of which I am a member, have made countless representations to the

:38:02.:38:04.

Government. We have been spelling out exactly what action needs to be

:38:05.:38:08.

taken. Whilst the Government have jumped into action recently it is

:38:09.:38:13.

unfortunately still not going far enough. We are yet to see meaningful

:38:14.:38:19.

action on dumping. The steadfast opposition to scrapping the lesser

:38:20.:38:22.

duty rule has meant that little can be done to stem the flow of cheap

:38:23.:38:26.

Chinese imports. The Government have not only been reticent, they have

:38:27.:38:32.

apparently been leading the charge on a European level, actively

:38:33.:38:36.

blocking this action being taken. The UK Government is guilty of

:38:37.:38:38.

negligence when it comes to the approach it has taken on the dumping

:38:39.:38:42.

of cheap steel on world markets by China. Whilst the UK is bending over

:38:43.:38:51.

backwards to accommodate beeswing's -- Beijing's request for market

:38:52.:38:55.

economy status, our industry is suffering. What has just happened in

:38:56.:39:00.

Scotland is testament to how a proactive governments, working

:39:01.:39:05.

closely with industry, unions and the workers themselves, can protect

:39:06.:39:08.

jobs and safeguard this vital industry. It is crucial now for the

:39:09.:39:13.

UK Government to follow that example. And make a similar

:39:14.:39:17.

concerted effort to save steel plants in England and Wales. They

:39:18.:39:23.

must work cooperatively with the EU on anti-dumping measures. We need to

:39:24.:39:27.

see a credible strategy, not just first deal, but for ceramics and all

:39:28.:39:31.

other energy intensive and heavy industry in the UK. Make no mistake,

:39:32.:39:36.

the industry in Scotland still faces challenges, but the diligence of the

:39:37.:39:40.

Government in Scotland in saving it has given a renewed confidence that

:39:41.:39:46.

still has a bright future there. On these benches, we stand in

:39:47.:39:49.

solidarity with steelworkers in England and Wales. Despite all of

:39:50.:39:54.

the warning signs, I want to see a bright future for steel right across

:39:55.:39:58.

Britain, not just north of the border. In order for that to happen,

:39:59.:40:02.

we need to see a complete change of tax on the Business Minister.

:40:03.:40:10.

Throughout the crisis, the SNP has consistently called for a

:40:11.:40:12.

comprehensive and advised industrial strategy for heavy industry in the

:40:13.:40:13.

UK. Within it, the SNP spelt out how

:40:14.:40:28.

steel is a vital and strategic asset in the Scottish economy. Although

:40:29.:40:33.

this might seem a common-sense approach, its visionary by

:40:34.:40:37.

comparison and to Westminster strategy or lack thereof. There are

:40:38.:40:42.

many workers who attended last Friday's handing over. As well as

:40:43.:40:54.

many of the union wraps, there was a sense of relief, optimism and

:40:55.:40:58.

renewed hope. It was palpable. Beneath all of that, there is a

:40:59.:41:03.

resilience. Call it a steely determination if you will. This is

:41:04.:41:08.

an old industry which has learned to adapt too many changes over the

:41:09.:41:14.

years. As Charles Stalin said, "It's not the strongest of the species

:41:15.:41:18.

that survives, nor the most intelligent, it is the one which is

:41:19.:41:24.

most adaptable to change." The steel industry is up to the challenge and

:41:25.:41:26.

the government needs to step forward. -- Charles Darwin said. I

:41:27.:41:33.

want to see a successful and productive future for all beastie

:41:34.:41:36.

workers throughout the UK and I really do hope the government is

:41:37.:41:42.

listening today and will leave no stone unturned to save our steel and

:41:43.:41:48.

highly skilled and are located steelworkers a positive future that

:41:49.:41:57.

they truly deserve. -- highly skilled steelworkers. Thank you. I

:41:58.:42:08.

want to praise the work of the First Minister Carwyn Jones, working to

:42:09.:42:13.

try to find a solution. He has been speaking out on that, alongside so

:42:14.:42:18.

many others and I am proud to have him as our First Minister. I really

:42:19.:42:25.

wanted to underline the point that the steel industry in this country

:42:26.:42:29.

has a future. And that it has a future at the heart of our

:42:30.:42:32.

construction projects and defence projects in the future. --

:42:33.:42:40.

infrastructure projects. I am proud that the steel produced in my

:42:41.:42:45.

constituency is at the heart of Crossrail and semi-construction and

:42:46.:42:48.

infrastructure projects. We must never lose sight of that. It is an

:42:49.:42:53.

industry of the future if the government gets behind it. I wanted

:42:54.:42:58.

to touch on three issues. Whatever the welcome announcements about

:42:59.:43:07.

Scunthorpe and maybe Port Talbot, we need to address the fundamental

:43:08.:43:11.

point that have brought us to this and will continue to affect the

:43:12.:43:16.

steel industry. I want to flag up some of the strategic risks we face

:43:17.:43:22.

and get rid of some of the myths that have been propagated about the

:43:23.:43:26.

European Union's role in this. Firstly, energy. It is at the heart

:43:27.:43:31.

of the debate. We see the highest prices across the UK. -- across the

:43:32.:43:38.

EU. And the fact is, whatever the nonsense we hear about the EU being

:43:39.:43:45.

to blame, for the main policies causing these prices have come from

:43:46.:43:49.

the UK Government. I welcome the steps that have been talked about,

:43:50.:43:55.

exemptions and compensation, but they have come from the UK

:43:56.:43:59.

Government. Unlike the member for Monmouth, who says we shouldn't be

:44:00.:44:03.

doing anything about climate change, that is not the issue. If we end up

:44:04.:44:10.

off shoring these issues, it would be an absolutely absurd situation. I

:44:11.:44:14.

would argue they continue to review and look at every aspect and to see

:44:15.:44:21.

what is the net result in the end. Are they paying more or less? If

:44:22.:44:27.

they are not paying less, we will face this problem again. It's all

:44:28.:44:31.

very well talking about the compensation, but the reality is

:44:32.:44:36.

that in my constituency a few days ago, they still haven't received the

:44:37.:44:41.

money. The government has been slow. We have heard some very powerful

:44:42.:44:44.

arguments made about the lesser duty rule. I would reiterate the question

:44:45.:44:52.

I made earlier on. We need to look, are those still high enough? I know

:44:53.:44:58.

he said it has gone down by 99% and we need to keep it under review. We

:44:59.:45:05.

have also heard about the market economy status. I agree we shouldn't

:45:06.:45:12.

be granting that to China. And also procurement, we have got to see

:45:13.:45:15.

concrete steps. I was pleased to hear what the secretary said, but

:45:16.:45:21.

this should have been coming a long time ago. We have produced products

:45:22.:45:27.

without using UK steel. What about the offshore patrol vessels and

:45:28.:45:32.

tankers? Those have not been produced using fully UK steel. We

:45:33.:45:36.

need to make sure it is UK steel being used. It's not just the role

:45:37.:45:42.

of the government, it's also about this construction companies. I have

:45:43.:45:48.

written to them, asking them, are they going to use UK steel? Are they

:45:49.:45:57.

going to be adhering to the standard, to use high-quality

:45:58.:46:03.

British steel? I do worry that, unless we address these issues,

:46:04.:46:05.

unless we maintain diversity of production, of different products,

:46:06.:46:17.

that we will lose capacity. Others will come then, like the Chinese,

:46:18.:46:23.

and put their prices up. Also on the EU, it is not the EU to blame. It

:46:24.:46:30.

would be absurd if we dealt it another body blow to leave the EU.

:46:31.:46:37.

Half of our exports go there. State aid rules apply as well. We have

:46:38.:46:42.

less capacity to act on dumping without others. The EU has brought

:46:43.:46:49.

in 37 measures, six of which have been on China. It is this government

:46:50.:46:54.

that hasn't done the work. We can save steel, but only if we work

:46:55.:47:02.

together to do it. Port Talbot has been an industrial jewel in the

:47:03.:47:07.

crown of Swansea Bay. Thousands of people and many more beyond in the

:47:08.:47:11.

communities rely on it. And we are looking towards the government to

:47:12.:47:15.

support the steel industry in the time of need. The Welsh government

:47:16.:47:20.

has come forward and taken leadership. We want to see some on

:47:21.:47:28.

the pensions. I am not here to criticise Tata Steel at all. They

:47:29.:47:34.

invested millions of pounds to buy it. And more to cover losses. They

:47:35.:47:43.

have spent 185 million on new blast furnace in 2013. The reality is that

:47:44.:47:48.

steel production has doubled because of Chinese production. And then

:47:49.:47:51.

world prices have halved, so we're now in a situation where they cannot

:47:52.:47:57.

sustain the competitive threat with China, which is 80% state owned and

:47:58.:48:01.

we need to hold on and do what we can to make sure there is a

:48:02.:48:05.

sustainable future. China are thinking strategically, through

:48:06.:48:12.

getting in with lower prices with HS2, nuclear and buying globally. We

:48:13.:48:19.

need to understand what they are trying to do and ensure that our

:48:20.:48:25.

long-term interests are sustained. At Swansea University, we are

:48:26.:48:29.

investing in new types of steel, multilayered steel, so it has a

:48:30.:48:35.

negative carbon footprint and it is clad over major public buildings. We

:48:36.:48:42.

have high quality coal as well. I want to see guarantees from the

:48:43.:48:47.

secretary of state who is talking their about co-investment. What are

:48:48.:48:52.

we going to have and we go to have an equity share from the government

:48:53.:48:55.

in the short term? What guarantees can we get about a more level

:48:56.:48:59.

playing field? Should it be the case... Yes, I will. Would he agree

:49:00.:49:07.

that the government could see the current threat to the UK steel

:49:08.:49:11.

industry also as an opportunity to change the way we do things, so the

:49:12.:49:16.

structure can be established to protect the steel industry for many

:49:17.:49:20.

years to come? Can they look to another sector like the care sector

:49:21.:49:24.

and other parts of the world to learn from other models of delivery,

:49:25.:49:35.

including private sector investment? I do need to look creatively

:49:36.:49:40.

accompany structure and how they engage with procurement. We also

:49:41.:49:45.

need to look at the process of displacing clean steel for dirty

:49:46.:49:50.

steel and that there is a case to look at carbon tariffs. -- we do

:49:51.:49:55.

need. We share common environments. In terms of procurement, one member

:49:56.:50:00.

made clear we do need to know who the government are talking to and

:50:01.:50:04.

what reassurances have been given. I they said it is commercially

:50:05.:50:08.

confidential, but what people consuming steels want to know is

:50:09.:50:14.

that if they make an order now, will it be delivered at that price in a

:50:15.:50:18.

year? We need to give those guarantees to secure futures. We

:50:19.:50:25.

need to hold our nerve. The reality is cash flow sustenance. The

:50:26.:50:35.

government need to look at financial packages, whereby the cash flow of

:50:36.:50:39.

the business can be sustained on the back of future orders at known

:50:40.:50:45.

prices. We have already mentioned that half of our exports go to

:50:46.:50:51.

Europe and it will be a complete disaster for us to believe, in terms

:50:52.:50:56.

of extra tariffs, and it's important that we do move forward through the

:50:57.:51:00.

referendum period so that there is security for prospective buyers, if

:51:01.:51:05.

we are still in the single market without tariffs imposed. Our first

:51:06.:51:14.

duty is to secure the livelihoods of our communities, as well as our

:51:15.:51:18.

strategic interests. It is important that the government comes forward

:51:19.:51:21.

and doesn't simply give the impression it has given that it

:51:22.:51:29.

wants a buyer, but once any benefits . Once any benefits. If there will

:51:30.:51:37.

be any pension buyouts, if there is going to be co-investment, that

:51:38.:51:43.

should be available for Tata as well as others. They did show they were

:51:44.:51:48.

there for the long run. As the government has shown they are not,

:51:49.:51:52.

they have pulled out. We want a sustainable future and it is

:51:53.:51:56.

important that Tata Steel are brought back around the table, as

:51:57.:52:00.

well as other prospective buyers. I am sorry. We are running out of

:52:01.:52:05.

time. I had to reduce the limit to four minutes. Yesterday, the

:52:06.:52:13.

secretary of state pledged his commitment to the steel industry. I

:52:14.:52:16.

would like to ask him to spell out why the government is willing to

:52:17.:52:22.

consider co-investment for Port Talbot, when it ruled it out for

:52:23.:52:29.

Redcar. At the time, it said state aid rules prevented it. And then

:52:30.:52:32.

they said it was because they refused to put British tax money

:52:33.:52:42.

into Thai banks. Why was that? It could have enabled mothballing or a

:52:43.:52:47.

sale. I would like to ask for a full explanation. S S I asked for a loan

:52:48.:52:54.

to enable a restructure. They were refused. I sat down with ministers

:52:55.:53:01.

and potential investors. The company were willing to run or mothball, but

:53:02.:53:10.

didn't want government money. What has changed and does he now regrets

:53:11.:53:17.

not listening to us? We have seen the cost of hearts closure has been

:53:18.:53:22.

far greater than intervention would have been. I want to say something

:53:23.:53:24.

about that cost. Firstly, the economic cost. 2000

:53:25.:53:35.

jobs lost at SSI. Over 900 jobs lost in the immediate supply chain. From

:53:36.:53:41.

those who provided the parts and the maintenance to those who cleaned the

:53:42.:53:44.

overalls and fed the workforce, plus there is no way of measuring the

:53:45.:53:49.

knock-on impact on the local shops, hairdressers, builders, nurses,

:53:50.:53:53.

childminders. We know they are all feeling the pain but unemployment

:53:54.:54:02.

has jumped 162%. We now have the 10th highest unemployment rate in

:54:03.:54:05.

the country. Secondly, I want to say something

:54:06.:54:20.

about the cost to the Exchequer and the state. It is currently

:54:21.:54:24.

understood that the Government is paying over ?200,000 per week to

:54:25.:54:27.

maintain the site in it's on the cover of the coma status. Recovery

:54:28.:54:33.

of the lands is expected to cost the state well over ?1 billion. For the

:54:34.:54:39.

British steel industry, we have lost your's second largest blast furnace

:54:40.:54:48.

-- Europe's. Will she agree with me that the lands of the one point ?1

:54:49.:55:01.

billion issue and the remuneration of it. I want to hear further

:55:02.:55:08.

commitment from the Government that they come -- they are committed to

:55:09.:55:16.

maintaining that site. For the British steel industry itself, we

:55:17.:55:24.

have lost our blast furnace, expensive national assets belonging

:55:25.:55:28.

to the rigid steel industry now laid to waste. Add to this the ?50

:55:29.:55:37.

million that has been paid into retraining. A further ?30 million

:55:38.:55:41.

for redundancies and other costs and bear in mind the majority of workers

:55:42.:55:46.

are still awaiting the award of their protective award and I will be

:55:47.:55:51.

grateful for an update on this. A loss to the council who are already

:55:52.:55:55.

suffered ?90 million losses after years of Tory austerity. Thirdly, I

:55:56.:56:05.

want to speak about the human cost. 600 workers are back in work or

:56:06.:56:10.

full-time training according to DWP figures and I pay tribute to them

:56:11.:56:15.

and to all of those who are working so hard to achieve that but 600 out

:56:16.:56:20.

of 3000 workers six months after closure still leaves a lot of work

:56:21.:56:25.

to do. What about the thousands of others? They are signing on, many

:56:26.:56:28.

for the first time in their lives. Many are coming up to the six months

:56:29.:56:34.

cut off rate so those who have a partner with an income of more than

:56:35.:56:38.

?114 per week will soon be losing their job seekers allowance

:56:39.:56:41.

completely. People are moving out of their homes and reliant on hardship

:56:42.:56:46.

funds to pay their bills. One worker who can no longer to look after his

:56:47.:56:51.

house can no longer have his children to stay with him. There has

:56:52.:56:55.

been a huge effect on families and relationships. A loss of identity,

:56:56.:56:58.

of comradeship, and a pride in a skilled trade. Redcar has seen an

:56:59.:57:04.

increase in 91% in mental health referrals in the past year. They are

:57:05.:57:08.

doing a fantastic job and we have many of those who are under the

:57:09.:57:12.

radar, one who has not even left the house since he lost his job last

:57:13.:57:17.

September. Families destroyed and lies shattered. Our town has been to

:57:18.:57:21.

a tragedy. The cost is far higher than intervention would have been. I

:57:22.:57:25.

say to this today, you let us last year. -- you let us down last year.

:57:26.:57:40.

I would like to thank for being allowed to speak in this debate and

:57:41.:57:46.

Adam was also like -- and I would also like to thank my honourable

:57:47.:57:51.

friend for securing such a debate because indeed the steel industry is

:57:52.:57:55.

in crisis and it is important that it gets a serious discussion and

:57:56.:58:00.

consideration. I am sure everyone in this house is keen to do all steps

:58:01.:58:06.

necessary to secure the steel industry in our country. Today, we

:58:07.:58:13.

have herds a number of options put forward on energy, business tariffs

:58:14.:58:19.

and various other options, but what I would like to talk about is

:58:20.:58:25.

defence. The last Labour Government had an industrial defence strategy.

:58:26.:58:30.

Right in the heart of that strategy was British jobs and the first

:58:31.:58:39.

priority in all decisions was that the MOD. Perhaps that is something

:58:40.:58:43.

the Government should consider implementing in this time of crisis

:58:44.:58:51.

in the steel industry. I believe that whenever and wherever possible,

:58:52.:58:56.

British steel should be used to build equipment, weapons, vehicles

:58:57.:59:02.

and things that our Armed Forces need to keep us safe. Sadly, the

:59:03.:59:13.

Government abandoned the industrial defence strategy. And of course, we

:59:14.:59:17.

can see the implications of that decision today. Because we have

:59:18.:59:26.

three new ships for the Royal Navy being built in Glasgow. 60% of steel

:59:27.:59:31.

from Sweden, 20% from other countries, and only 20% from the UK.

:59:32.:59:38.

We have a 3.4 billion contract to build 590 armoured vehicles, also

:59:39.:59:46.

using Swedish imports for the majority of the steel requirements.

:59:47.:59:53.

The Minister has also refused to guarantee that the Navy's new

:59:54.:59:58.

frigate will be built using British Steel. The defence minister will

:59:59.:00:05.

only say they have an opportunity. Madam Deputy Speaker, this paints a

:00:06.:00:09.

picture of a Government that is willing to talk the talk but not

:00:10.:00:19.

walk the walk. The MOD has a budget of ?178 billion for defence

:00:20.:00:22.

equipment over the next ten years and Labour will continue to press

:00:23.:00:27.

that that money is spent where possible securing British jobs and

:00:28.:00:39.

for British steel. Perhaps the Minister would like to listen

:00:40.:00:45.

because two avoid a fire sale, Government must demonstrate to all

:00:46.:00:49.

stakeholders within the industry that it is taking a proactive

:00:50.:00:55.

approach to ensuring the continued observations. -- operations. You

:00:56.:01:01.

must look at reversing the decision to scrap the defence industrial

:01:02.:01:04.

strategy. You must make a public statement with haste to say that

:01:05.:01:13.

this Government believe it is supporting British Steel and British

:01:14.:01:21.

jobs. I am pleased to take part in this important debate. I am

:01:22.:01:24.

delighted that the speaker was granted its application. As a son of

:01:25.:01:31.

a Teesside, I am a regular visitor to seaside and to Redcar. I was

:01:32.:01:37.

there only a few weeks ago and to see the sight of that plant, now

:01:38.:01:45.

empty and derelict after 175 years of steel-making is shocking and my

:01:46.:01:55.

thoughts are with the constituents in Redcar and the surrounding

:01:56.:02:01.

constituencies in Teesside but of course the 3000 jobs as people have

:02:02.:02:04.

said and many more thousands of jobs, lives were affected and what a

:02:05.:02:11.

shame that we have not seen the kind of very slow action from the

:02:12.:02:15.

Government then to try to prevent that that we are at least finally

:02:16.:02:19.

seen today but what a contrast that has already been raised by the

:02:20.:02:24.

honourable gentleman, the member for Hartlepool just down the road,

:02:25.:02:27.

between the industrial strategy of the previous Business Secretary, the

:02:28.:02:33.

internationally respected Vince Cable, who was seeking to ensure

:02:34.:02:40.

that we could maintain our existing industry and also seeking to

:02:41.:02:43.

transition to new technologies, something that is entirely lacking

:02:44.:02:48.

from this Business Secretary and he was so proud to say that there is

:02:49.:02:51.

now a conservative Business Secretary but he simply does not

:02:52.:02:55.

have an industrial strategy for the UK at all. And what an extraordinary

:02:56.:03:00.

situation. We have a Conservative Party preaching free trade and yet

:03:01.:03:05.

rolling out the red carpet and seeking to do sweetheart deals with

:03:06.:03:10.

the communist nation with a subsidised basket case of our

:03:11.:03:16.

industry that is producing steel that no one in the world needs or

:03:17.:03:19.

wants that is wrecking a perfectly viable situation. Now, I quote. This

:03:20.:03:24.

is an interesting quote and it says Redcar has already paid the price

:03:25.:03:31.

for its free-trade ideology and Port Talbot is about to follow. There

:03:32.:03:35.

will eventually be little left if the current drift in trade policy is

:03:36.:03:40.

allowed to continue. Who said that? Was it Jerry make organ? Was it the

:03:41.:03:46.

leader of the Liberal Democrats or the SNP? No, it was the

:03:47.:03:49.

international business editor of the Daily Telegraph. -- was it Jeremy

:03:50.:03:56.

Corbyn? That is the mark of a Government that has turned its back

:03:57.:04:02.

on steel. All he is prepared to do is say, can you make a little bit

:04:03.:04:08.

less steel, please? That is because of his desperation to call the

:04:09.:04:14.

Chinese over the Hinckley power plant. They will still be producing

:04:15.:04:21.

far more than the world needs and will do devastation. Only six months

:04:22.:04:25.

ago, at the same time as we had in action from this Government, the

:04:26.:04:29.

Liberal Democrats called for ministers to set up a Minister led

:04:30.:04:35.

group looking across the whole of the steel industry so we could have

:04:36.:04:38.

a strategy to save this great British industry, and yet the

:04:39.:04:43.

Government ignored that and failed to act and now what we are seeing

:04:44.:04:47.

today is not leadership, it is panic and it is acting too little, too

:04:48.:04:52.

late. So ministers must now do at least what they can to reverse this.

:04:53.:04:57.

They must keep the Port Talbot plant operational while a buyer is found.

:04:58.:05:02.

They must be a little less arrogant and listen and learn some of the

:05:03.:05:06.

lessons from the past including what Vince Cable did when he went to GM

:05:07.:05:11.

motors and that was to make sure we do have the steel industry going

:05:12.:05:18.

forward to support the UK economy. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker and

:05:19.:05:21.

yet again we have had another very good debate on the steel industry

:05:22.:05:24.

with lots of contributions from the backbenches. I think I counted 21

:05:25.:05:28.

contributions in our short debate from the backbenches.

:05:29.:05:45.

I think it has been an excellent debate. I would also like to pay

:05:46.:05:52.

tribute to the community trade union and also to Carwyn Jones, the Welsh

:05:53.:05:58.

First Minister, who has been mentioned during the course of the

:05:59.:06:03.

debate and my honourable friend the Shadow Secretary of State for Wales

:06:04.:06:06.

on our side to do for her efforts on this issue. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:06:07.:06:10.

our role as Her Majesty's opposition is to hold the Government was likely

:06:11.:06:14.

to be fire on this issue. Let's be clear about that because our

:06:15.:06:17.

industry has to have a future. We have to make sure that the UK steel

:06:18.:06:20.

industry has a future at all and we are having to do this because the

:06:21.:06:29.

new Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, straight

:06:30.:06:30.

after the general election, signalled quite clearly and quite

:06:31.:06:33.

overtly that he was not going to continue the consensus that we have

:06:34.:06:35.

had for the last decade that has been emerging and growing about the

:06:36.:06:45.

need for a UK industrial strategy. The UK industrial strategy. I wonder

:06:46.:06:50.

if the new Secretary of State for Wales wants to learn that his job is

:06:51.:06:53.

to sit there and shut up and listen during this debate? The UK... Order,

:06:54.:07:04.

order! Let us stay calm. The honourable gentleman may wish to

:07:05.:07:13.

rephrase what he has just said. I think the new Secretary of State

:07:14.:07:16.

needs to sit there in silence and listen on this very important issue

:07:17.:07:20.

that affects Wales in particular which is his responsibility. The UK

:07:21.:07:25.

needs an active industrial, modern strategy which understands the

:07:26.:07:29.

importance of foundation industries like the steel industry to rebalance

:07:30.:07:36.

our economy. I understand that the Secretary of State for business,

:07:37.:07:41.

coming from a city backgrounds and with a professed laissez faire

:07:42.:07:51.

policy does not want to use this strategy, but he is wrong about

:07:52.:07:59.

that. I worked in steel for six months, my father worked there for

:08:00.:08:04.

over 20 years, so I do not need questions about my background from

:08:05.:08:07.

the Secretary of State for Wales who cannot sit there and shut up and

:08:08.:08:10.

listen to the debate as he should be doing on part of his constituents

:08:11.:08:16.

for Wales. I understand why the Secretary of State for Business,

:08:17.:08:18.

Innovation and Skills does not want to use the term industrial strategy,

:08:19.:08:23.

but I am afraid he is wrong not to do so because unless the Government

:08:24.:08:26.

is prepared to strategically support British industry, the Chancellor

:08:27.:08:36.

when he says March of the makers will suddenly become a death of the

:08:37.:08:39.

makers in this country. We're not going to stand by and let that

:08:40.:08:42.

happen which is why we believe there is a future for the steel industry

:08:43.:08:46.

in this country. Not to steel recycling in the United Kingdom, can

:08:47.:08:50.

I say that? We need to hear a commitment that he is committed to

:08:51.:08:54.

steel-making in this country and not just the recycling of steel,

:08:55.:08:56.

important as that is, and we have been asking for months for a clear

:08:57.:09:02.

commitment from the Secretary of State to make clear its view as a

:09:03.:09:09.

Government as to what is the minimum strategic steel-making capacity that

:09:10.:09:12.

it believes must be maintained in the UK's national interest.

:09:13.:09:26.

That doubt at the heart of government is like an impurity in

:09:27.:09:34.

steel if you are pouring it in a steel plant in this country. If you

:09:35.:09:39.

do not get rid of it, it can lead to a disaster and it will be a disaster

:09:40.:09:43.

if the doubt at the heart of the policy will not be got rid of. We

:09:44.:09:50.

need to make sure Port Talbot remains is the opportunity to make

:09:51.:09:59.

use steel remains, not just reuse old steel. That is why it is

:10:00.:10:05.

important is to make an industrial strategy, not an approach, not just

:10:06.:10:09.

a vague warm words. We need leadership and not laxity that is

:10:10.:10:18.

undermining everything. Thank you. Can I begin by paying tribute to all

:10:19.:10:23.

those who have spoken in this debate and make it very clear that

:10:24.:10:30.

everybody that has spoken has spoken quite rightly, with passion in their

:10:31.:10:34.

hearts on behalf of their constituents and on behalf of our

:10:35.:10:38.

great British steel industry. And I just want to make this very

:10:39.:10:41.

important point. It is so important that we do indeed look to the future

:10:42.:10:46.

and make sure that the message alert is sent out from this place is one

:10:47.:10:52.

of confidence in the continuing success of our British steel

:10:53.:10:57.

industry. -- that is sent out. One of the things I have noticed and can

:10:58.:11:05.

I pay tribute to the wise words of the Honourable Lady there, but when

:11:06.:11:12.

I went to Rotherham, I understood speciality steels, which are

:11:13.:11:16.

separate from the great work at Port Talbot. Then I went to Corby,

:11:17.:11:22.

another great day in Corby, meeting excellent workers and management.

:11:23.:11:27.

Very proud of the superb quality of the products, but it was really

:11:28.:11:30.

important that this message of continuing confidence not just for

:11:31.:11:36.

customers, but also for suppliers is something that unites us. And

:11:37.:11:40.

despite the unfortunate remarks of the gentleman, there is much that

:11:41.:11:44.

brings us together on this important matter. We all agree that steel is a

:11:45.:11:51.

vital industry. We agree that this crisis is not confined to the United

:11:52.:11:56.

Kingdom but we'll see should agree that no government, unfortunately,

:11:57.:12:01.

has a magic wand and can control the price of steel. We agree it is a

:12:02.:12:07.

vital industry, not just for the national economy, but because of the

:12:08.:12:11.

important role it plays in local communities for the workers it

:12:12.:12:16.

directly employs and through the supply chain. That is where it is a

:12:17.:12:23.

vital component to the continuing success of that part of our United

:12:24.:12:28.

Kingdom, particularly in Wales. I want to pay tribute to my Secretary

:12:29.:12:34.

of State for his tireless work and his outstanding leadership

:12:35.:12:38.

throughout this crisis. One of the problems that we have has,

:12:39.:12:43.

throughout all the time that we have been in the position is that we have

:12:44.:12:50.

been in, is that so much has been so commercially sensitive and I'm

:12:51.:12:53.

looking forward to the day when it comes that we will actually be

:12:54.:12:58.

able... I will be the first to stand up and say about the sort of work

:12:59.:13:03.

that the Secretary of State has been leading quietly and privately. And I

:13:04.:13:07.

have to say that that work began as soon as we were appointed and, in

:13:08.:13:11.

particular, even before the terrible events in Redcar. The reason why we

:13:12.:13:19.

get on the side of the house so agitated when we have these debates

:13:20.:13:24.

is because we started delivering on the very things that steel

:13:25.:13:31.

industries... Even before we had the tragedy of Redcar. That is why it

:13:32.:13:36.

minister who ignored the advice of her officials and said that this

:13:37.:13:41.

country would vote in favour of tariffs on dumped steel. That is

:13:42.:13:45.

what we did in July and we continue to do that into November. And I want

:13:46.:13:52.

to say about Redcar, the situation was there was very different. Loss

:13:53.:13:57.

and debts, tens of millions of pounds of debt. A company that went

:13:58.:14:03.

bust locally and its parent company in Thailand. The stark contrasts

:14:04.:14:11.

between SSI and Tata Steel. Tata Steel is an excellent and

:14:12.:14:14.

responsible employer. We look forward now to supporting them in

:14:15.:14:19.

all we do to make sure there is a successful sale and successful

:14:20.:14:24.

future for our steel industry. This house has considered the decision to

:14:25.:14:31.

sell its UK operations and the government has taken to secure the

:14:32.:14:36.

future of the UK's steel industry. Vote now. The ayes have it. The ayes

:14:37.:14:50.

have it. We now come to the debate recommended by the backbench

:14:51.:14:55.

business committee on the reform of support arrangements for people

:14:56.:15:01.

infected with contaminated blood. Diana Johnson to move. Thank you.

:15:02.:15:06.

And I rise to move the motion standing in my name and the names of

:15:07.:15:10.

my right honourable and honourable friends. And I first of all thank

:15:11.:15:14.

the backbench business committee for granting the time for this debate

:15:15.:15:18.

today. And this topic was actually the first debate that the backbench

:15:19.:15:23.

business committee scheduled after they had been established in 2010.

:15:24.:15:27.

And it is a very sad fact that six years on we are still fighting for

:15:28.:15:32.

justice for those affected by the contaminated blood scandal. And it

:15:33.:15:37.

was in 2010 and well during the General Election campaign, that my

:15:38.:15:40.

constituent Glenn Wilkinson, with his wife Alison came to see me. And

:15:41.:15:45.

they told me about Glenn having been given infected blood during dental

:15:46.:15:51.

treatment and how it had affected his life and health and his

:15:52.:15:55.

opportunities for work and impacted on his family. And from then on I

:15:56.:15:58.

began to find out about the biggest treatment disaster in the history of

:15:59.:16:04.

the NHS. Very happy to. I'm grateful. Last year, my constituent

:16:05.:16:17.

came to see me in my office. Sadly, he has since passed away and I would

:16:18.:16:23.

like to sincerely thank the lady for her persistence in bringing forward

:16:24.:16:28.

these debates on behalf of his son, James, and his widow, Sally, for

:16:29.:16:36.

Hearst persistence in ensuring this is properly discussed. -- her

:16:37.:16:42.

persistence. I am grateful. I have received many letters from all over

:16:43.:16:45.

the country from families that have been affected. But I do want to just

:16:46.:16:52.

set the scene and comment on the government's proposals we are

:16:53.:16:54.

discussing and I will try and do so fairly briefly to allow many others

:16:55.:17:01.

to speak and talk about their constituents and views. We know that

:17:02.:17:06.

governments of both colours have introduced a patchwork of schemes

:17:07.:17:10.

and assistance over the years, but there has never been a complete

:17:11.:17:13.

package of support for those affected. And this is in marked

:17:14.:17:20.

contrast to other disasters, such as thalidomide, where full support and

:17:21.:17:24.

compensation was put in place. And I am sure the whole house wants to pay

:17:25.:17:31.

tribute to all those who have fought for justice over many years and

:17:32.:17:34.

their families and loved ones who have supported them in doing that.

:17:35.:17:40.

Very happy to. She has mentioned the various schemes that have been put

:17:41.:17:43.

in place, but would she agree with me that the actual process of

:17:44.:17:48.

applying and getting through that is very difficult, particularly for

:17:49.:17:52.

people who are so L? Absolutely. A very important point and I will come

:17:53.:17:57.

onto that. I'm just going to make a bit of progress and then I will take

:17:58.:18:01.

an intervention. I just was paying tribute to those who fought for many

:18:02.:18:06.

years and I think we would agree they have been fighting for too many

:18:07.:18:13.

years to get a fair settlement for what happened to them. And they are

:18:14.:18:15.

weary from fighting. They want to resolve this once and for all and to

:18:16.:18:19.

get on with their lives and, very sadly, more and more people are

:18:20.:18:23.

dying without seeing that justice. And each individual affected has

:18:24.:18:30.

been robbed of many of the opportunities that we all take for

:18:31.:18:34.

granted, to work, to have a career, to buy a home, to grow old with the

:18:35.:18:39.

person that they love. And also family members who have had to care

:18:40.:18:43.

for their loved ones, perhaps giving up careers to do so, and then to

:18:44.:18:49.

watch their loved ones deteriorate. I am happy to take an intervention.

:18:50.:18:54.

She has been tenacious in her pursuit of this issue and this is an

:18:55.:18:58.

issue that has been going on for many years. I have got constituents

:18:59.:19:01.

that have been affected by this and it is about time this was brought

:19:02.:19:07.

out. You mentioned the thalidomide situation, that took many years.

:19:08.:19:11.

That took a determined minister to introduce that. If he could have

:19:12.:19:14.

done that, I cannot see why this minister cannot. I am grateful. I'm

:19:15.:19:20.

just going to make a little bit of progress. I think it is important to

:19:21.:19:28.

recognise that there is never -- has never been an admission by the

:19:29.:19:33.

Department of Health or the NHS for the liability. They have always

:19:34.:19:37.

taken the view that no one could have known about the problem with

:19:38.:19:41.

the infected blood. But I want to make the point that this is not a

:19:42.:19:46.

court of law. This is Parliament and we are being asked to deal with a

:19:47.:19:50.

clear wrong that has been done to our constituents and we know that

:19:51.:19:56.

these people were damaged and harmed by the treatment they received from

:19:57.:20:00.

the NHS by the state. And what we need to do now is put together a

:20:01.:20:06.

proper support package to ensure that those affected and their

:20:07.:20:10.

families are at the heart of what we do and whatever scheme is proposed.

:20:11.:20:15.

I am happy to give way. Thank you. Not least because I have to leave

:20:16.:20:21.

shortly. I commend her for her Stirling work. In my constituent's

:20:22.:20:30.

case, the situation was exactly what she said. The complexity of all the

:20:31.:20:35.

schemes. In his case, because his father died in 1986, before the

:20:36.:20:40.

trust was set up, his mother never received any money at all. That

:20:41.:20:44.

still remains the case today after what has been proposed. That seems

:20:45.:20:49.

very unfair to me. -- Stirling work. I will give way. She has made such

:20:50.:20:59.

great in -- inroads. Will she agree with me that it is completely

:21:00.:21:03.

unacceptable that any reform should make sick people even worse off. One

:21:04.:21:09.

of my constituents will lose ?500 a month. Another one will need to see

:21:10.:21:15.

that justice is being done and he is in the gallery. I agree. Going back

:21:16.:21:20.

to my point about liability and about the need to set in place a

:21:21.:21:25.

proper support package, recognising the wrong that has been done. I

:21:26.:21:29.

think the Department of Health haven't done that for far too long

:21:30.:21:34.

and it appears they are far more interested in protecting the

:21:35.:21:36.

institutional reputation of the Department of Health and the NHS,

:21:37.:21:41.

rather than looking to right a wrong. In the last parliament, there

:21:42.:21:46.

was a concerted effort from all parties to seek a lasting

:21:47.:21:56.

settlement. There was a report produced that showed services were

:21:57.:22:04.

not fit for purpose and another minister worked to finally get an

:22:05.:22:09.

apology made in Parliament and an agreement that the government would

:22:10.:22:13.

consult on a proper support package for those affected and I think the

:22:14.:22:18.

Prime Minister's apology a year ago and the announcement the ?25 million

:22:19.:22:22.

would be made available for transitional support is very

:22:23.:22:27.

welcome. As was the full consultation promise on a package.

:22:28.:22:32.

But I have to say not one penny of that ?25 million has been spent yet.

:22:33.:22:40.

Money that is badly needed by the people affected and the consultation

:22:41.:22:44.

on the new support scheme was only announced on the 21st of January

:22:45.:22:52.

this year, some nine months later after the Prime Minister's

:22:53.:22:57.

statement. I have a constituent here today, like many here, who is in the

:22:58.:23:03.

gallery. Isn't the issue that that consultation doesn't seem to China

:23:04.:23:07.

at all with the apology and that what is on offer in no way seems to

:23:08.:23:12.

reflect what I'm sure was meant as a sincere apology by the Prime

:23:13.:23:13.

Minister? That is an important point and we

:23:14.:23:21.

are now just a feud is away from the end of the consultation period. I

:23:22.:23:26.

understand that the minister was advised, I think wrongly, by

:23:27.:23:29.

officials in the Department of Health, that she could not meet with

:23:30.:23:33.

the all-party group during the consultation period. I know in

:23:34.:23:37.

Scotland that was not the case during their consultation. In fact,

:23:38.:23:41.

the minister met with MS peas and individuals and that is partly why

:23:42.:23:45.

we are here today and why we have called for this debate so that the

:23:46.:23:48.

minister can listen to what her fellow parliamentarians have to say

:23:49.:23:52.

about the Government's proposals and feed this in Sue the consultation. I

:23:53.:23:57.

give way. I thank the honourable member to give way. I have many

:23:58.:24:02.

constituents in Taunton Deane whose lives are blighted by this issue of

:24:03.:24:06.

contaminated blood and whilst I do applaud this consultation that the

:24:07.:24:09.

Government has brought forward, there are many that believe it is

:24:10.:24:12.

only making the situation worse and causing more pain. Not least the

:24:13.:24:18.

fact that in Scotland, people suffering there may get a better

:24:19.:24:21.

deal than those in England so I would urge the Minister to look very

:24:22.:24:24.

carefully at the consultation again so as not to penalise people already

:24:25.:24:29.

badly suffering. I would like to move on to highlight a view of the

:24:30.:24:34.

problems with the consultation that has been set out by the Government.

:24:35.:24:39.

First of all, as has already been said, it seems that many of the

:24:40.:24:43.

existing recipients will receive lower payments from the new revised

:24:44.:24:49.

scheme. The Government's proposals would end all discretionary support

:24:50.:24:53.

such as winter fuel allowance, child supplements, and low income top ups,

:24:54.:24:56.

meaning that many people will potentially lose out by thousands of

:24:57.:25:04.

pounds each year. Secondly, most of the current beneficiaries have

:25:05.:25:09.

hepatitis C stage one and currently gets no support and are left begging

:25:10.:25:16.

for individual payments. The Government's proposal will provide

:25:17.:25:19.

annual payments for people in stage one which I think are welcomed all

:25:20.:25:23.

stop however, they will be subject to regular individual assessments

:25:24.:25:31.

and this could result in fluctuating payments and produce financial

:25:32.:25:34.

uncertainty for individuals. Assessment will only take into

:25:35.:25:38.

account clinical factors. They won't, for example, look at the loss

:25:39.:25:42.

of education or employment or decades of loss of amenity,

:25:43.:25:47.

ill-health and loss of earnings and it seems to me from the information

:25:48.:25:52.

the Government had provided, those assessments are going to cost

:25:53.:25:58.

?500,000 a year to actually undertake. I say wouldn't that money

:25:59.:26:04.

money be better spent to support people financially themselves and to

:26:05.:26:07.

pay for that amount of assessments? I give way. I thank the honourable

:26:08.:26:14.

lady for giving way and thank her on her determination in championing

:26:15.:26:17.

this issue. Would you agree that a further problem with the

:26:18.:26:19.

consultation and she highlighted the decades of ill-health and for many

:26:20.:26:25.

it is emotional distress and trauma, but the consultation process itself

:26:26.:26:28.

has actually for some of those people added to that burden and that

:26:29.:26:31.

is certainly the method I have heard loud and clear from my constituent

:26:32.:26:35.

Mark Webster who came to see me on this issue. I think that is a valid

:26:36.:26:40.

point there. I will proceed with the concerns that I have with the

:26:41.:26:43.

consultation because I do want other members to speak as well in the

:26:44.:26:47.

debate. The third point I want to make is about the inadequate

:26:48.:26:52.

provision for the affected community that is the widows, the partners,

:26:53.:26:56.

and the dependence of those effected. The proposals for windows

:26:57.:27:01.

appear to be extremely complex. The Government's proposals create six

:27:02.:27:05.

categories of window with big variations in what is offered within

:27:06.:27:09.

each category and Department of Health officials could not explain

:27:10.:27:15.

how this will work when they met with the secretariat and have not

:27:16.:27:18.

provided an explanation of these proposals as promised and there

:27:19.:27:21.

appears to be nothing for dependent children. Forcefully,... I have

:27:22.:27:32.

constituents who are infected and I also like constituent's partners who

:27:33.:27:37.

are infected and who now cannot get insurance for themselves and are

:27:38.:27:41.

very worried about the long-term medications. That adds extra stress

:27:42.:27:48.

to what is already a very stressful situation. I think that is a very

:27:49.:27:54.

important point there. So there are concerns that under the plans, money

:27:55.:27:59.

is going to be used to pay for new drugs to treat hepatitis C which

:28:00.:28:04.

will be bought separately from the NHS budget and therefore cost more.

:28:05.:28:10.

Under nice guidelines, everyone with hepatitis C should be eligible for

:28:11.:28:14.

treatment with a new generation of drugs from the end of February 2016,

:28:15.:28:19.

so in allocating funding for treatment, this will gain mean that

:28:20.:28:23.

money is not going directly to those who need financial support. Happy to

:28:24.:28:31.

give way. I wonder if my honourable friend, who is making an excellent

:28:32.:28:34.

speech, will agree with my constituent who is affected, and it

:28:35.:28:39.

really feels that those changes are deliberately punitive and

:28:40.:28:42.

exceedingly cruel in that they are using changes and requests for

:28:43.:28:45.

changes to support schemes to effect people in this way that the person

:28:46.:28:52.

has two years the extra payment to fund the treatment refused by the

:28:53.:28:58.

NHS and many people have had to do that and they will see their annual

:28:59.:29:01.

payment decrease over time and lose the additional support currently

:29:02.:29:05.

provided. People like my constituent are hit again and again and again.

:29:06.:29:11.

How can the reform go-ahead is given that? I'm going to move on and

:29:12.:29:20.

complete what I want to say. A real concern is about the possibility

:29:21.:29:23.

that beneficiaries in England will be worse off than those in Scotland.

:29:24.:29:27.

The Scottish proposals are far more generous to hepatitis C stage two

:29:28.:29:34.

and HIV sufferers, who will receive ?27,000 per annum or ?37,000 if they

:29:35.:29:42.

are currently infected and that is welcome. Their proposals are much

:29:43.:29:44.

less generous for those who have hepatitis C stage one who will

:29:45.:29:47.

receive an additional stage one payment but no ongoing support.

:29:48.:29:52.

However, it is important to note that the Scottish proposals have

:29:53.:29:55.

been broadly welcomed and I think this is partly because of the of the

:29:56.:29:57.

way the consultation has been conducted in Scotland and the clear

:29:58.:30:00.

acknowledgement for example that the existing structure will be scrapped.

:30:01.:30:06.

I am very conscious of time. I think I am already probably getting to my

:30:07.:30:11.

allocated 50 minutes so if members don't mind I'm going to complete

:30:12.:30:17.

this. The other thing I wanted to raise my point about the

:30:18.:30:20.

acknowledgements around the existing cost structures being scrapped,

:30:21.:30:24.

which the Scottish model will do, I want to seek reassurance from the

:30:25.:30:28.

Minister that she intends to scrap the trust structures that exist in

:30:29.:30:32.

England, Wales and Northern Ireland, because they have been subject to

:30:33.:30:35.

much criticism. There is also no mention in the consultation about

:30:36.:30:39.

any proposals around lump-sum payments which would enable those

:30:40.:30:44.

affected to make real choices about their own lives such as paying off a

:30:45.:30:48.

mortgage or clearing debts are helping their children. I want to

:30:49.:30:53.

reiterate my belief that the ?230 million that the Government are set

:30:54.:30:56.

to receive over the next few years from the of plasma resources UK Ltd

:30:57.:31:03.

should be earmarked for lump-sum payments for these people. This is

:31:04.:31:09.

money from the Department of Health creating blood products and it would

:31:10.:31:13.

be fitting to use the money in this way. I am also disappointed with the

:31:14.:31:17.

Government's proposals that there is no mention of those infected to be

:31:18.:31:21.

automatically password it through to the new benefits which are being

:31:22.:31:27.

introduced, for example moving from DLA to PIP. And there is no

:31:28.:31:31.

consideration at all about using the Irish style medical card to ensure

:31:32.:31:35.

that access to health is as speedy as possible. In conclusion, I think

:31:36.:31:39.

we have now had a chance to consider the details of the Government's

:31:40.:31:44.

proposals. I am disappointed and I do not think they deliver what we

:31:45.:31:47.

want them to deliver to get people dignity and to allow them to get on

:31:48.:31:50.

with their lives rather than constantly having to battle to get

:31:51.:31:54.

support. Currently, this means campaigning to ensure their lives do

:31:55.:31:58.

not get any worse let alone see any improvement. They needs and they

:31:59.:32:02.

deserve action in a timely manner. They do not want to end their lives

:32:03.:32:08.

as campaigners. Many of those infected have told me that they

:32:09.:32:11.

believe the Government is just a delay in making a proper settlement

:32:12.:32:15.

and that there are more and more of these people dying and after their

:32:16.:32:19.

long and bitter experience, who can blame them? As the former co-chair

:32:20.:32:32.

of the APPG I will give way. I would like to thank the member for having

:32:33.:32:35.

called chaired the committee. Does she agree with me that the ministry

:32:36.:32:40.

should see that we have a framework with the settlement in Scotland

:32:41.:32:43.

which does need some tweaking and also a very, hence the all-party

:32:44.:32:47.

group report which looked at the way the trust and the funds didn't

:32:48.:32:50.

operate in supporting the victims of this and that if they heed that,

:32:51.:32:57.

experiences in Scotland's, then we can start helping the victims. I

:32:58.:33:01.

think the gentleman speaks with wisdom in this matter. I think it is

:33:02.:33:05.

now time for the biggest treatment disaster in the history of the NHS

:33:06.:33:10.

to be settled once and for all and I hope the Minister will look again at

:33:11.:33:15.

these proposals which he has put out in her consultation and think

:33:16.:33:17.

actually what is in the best interests of this group, who have

:33:18.:33:20.

been so badly treated for so many years. The question is as on the

:33:21.:33:32.

order paper. It is a privilege and an honour to follow the member and

:33:33.:33:40.

may I commend her for her leadership in bringing parliament together on

:33:41.:33:48.

this very important subject. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for

:33:49.:33:50.

allowing me to speak during this important debate about this summer

:33:51.:33:57.

and saddening topic. I speak as a representative of the number of

:33:58.:34:00.

individuals in my constituency whose lives and the lives of those they

:34:01.:34:04.

love have been previously, unfairly, and irreversibly impacted by the

:34:05.:34:07.

terrible injustice we address this afternoon. The infection of

:34:08.:34:13.

individuals with contaminated blood has been apologised for by the Prime

:34:14.:34:18.

Minister on behalf of the Government, an apology which is now

:34:19.:34:22.

more than a -year-olds, Tory scandal that is more than 20 years old. --

:34:23.:34:27.

for a scandal. When he rightly addressed the matter last year, the

:34:28.:34:30.

Prime Minister said that it was difficult to imagine the feeling of

:34:31.:34:36.

unfairness that those who have been effected must feel. My constituents

:34:37.:34:39.

and others around the country were let down. When they or their family

:34:40.:34:45.

members were at their most vulnerable, they were let down by

:34:46.:34:49.

the health service that was supposed to be there to keep them safe. It

:34:50.:34:58.

truly is difficult to imagine, but I am sorry to say that the feeling of

:34:59.:35:02.

unfairness has not been lessened by the proposals in this consultation.

:35:03.:35:08.

If anything, it has been made worse. Lives have been changed and lives

:35:09.:35:13.

had been taken. So much has been lost that the Government must now

:35:14.:35:17.

focus on lessening and mitigating this loss as much as it can ever do.

:35:18.:35:25.

I will give way. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way.

:35:26.:35:29.

On the subject of mitigating this loss, I am here to represent several

:35:30.:35:35.

constituents who have an issue with this but one particular one, Andy

:35:36.:35:37.

Gunn, he was extremely concerned by the comments by the Health Secretary

:35:38.:35:44.

that the funding for this might come from the NHS budget. Do you agree

:35:45.:35:48.

that would be highly inappropriate? I thank the honourable member for

:35:49.:35:52.

his intervention. I have had similar representations from my constituents

:35:53.:35:56.

and I hope that the French edge and the Treasury bench actually take on

:35:57.:36:00.

board those comments. -- the front bench. The vastness of this loss we

:36:01.:36:06.

are addressing today is such that even the ideal solution cannot do

:36:07.:36:10.

much to address it. But what has been proposed does so much less. The

:36:11.:36:18.

proposals contained in the consultation are far from what the

:36:19.:36:21.

victims of this injustice is expected were led to believe they

:36:22.:36:26.

would receive. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know many of my colleagues on all

:36:27.:36:29.

sides of the house have similar stories to tell. I have had

:36:30.:36:33.

constituents visit my surgeries who have always been so incredibly

:36:34.:36:39.

strong about what has happened to them and hopeful for the potential

:36:40.:36:42.

of a good settlement from the Government. But have now been left

:36:43.:36:46.

in tears. They feel let down and fear that these proposals will make

:36:47.:36:51.

life even harder for them. These are people whose lives have been tyrant

:36:52.:36:59.

-- have turned out to be radically different than how they had planned

:37:00.:37:03.

them through absolutely no fault of their own. They struggled to get

:37:04.:37:08.

insurance or pensions and have had their careers curtailed. Things we

:37:09.:37:16.

take for granted in this place. Even worse, they have been unable to have

:37:17.:37:22.

children or have seen loved ones die tragically soon. These people should

:37:23.:37:26.

be helped and need to be provided with a full and final settlement

:37:27.:37:29.

that allows them to move on without being worse off. There remains much

:37:30.:37:37.

misunderstanding about the medical conditions of the victims and the

:37:38.:37:40.

treatments available. The improvements in care for those with

:37:41.:37:47.

HIV has been a blessing for many. However, the disease remains in

:37:48.:37:52.

durable and if you are a haemophiliac or have other

:37:53.:37:54.

conditions such as hepatitis C, then you cannot take the medication that

:37:55.:38:01.

could help you. We must also public consider that those infected by more

:38:02.:38:06.

than one disease, those with both HIV and HCV have a threefold greater

:38:07.:38:13.

risk of progression to sclerosis or liver disease than those just

:38:14.:38:19.

infected with one. We must not miss understand the dangers of these

:38:20.:38:23.

diseases. My constituents and the constituents of so many of us here

:38:24.:38:27.

today have suffered a grave injustice. It is an injustice they

:38:28.:38:30.

never expected to supper. Would never have been able to prepare for

:38:31.:38:35.

and for which the blame rests entirely elsewhere and because of

:38:36.:38:39.

this, they or their loved ones have experienced terrible illness and

:38:40.:38:41.

their lives have been changed or ended. Unfairness does not seem a

:38:42.:38:45.

strong enough word to describe it. That word is the best we can do. The

:38:46.:38:58.

Prime Minister was correct to apologise, but this consultation

:38:59.:39:02.

does not go far enough, constituents only have to look north of the

:39:03.:39:09.

border to see a better deal, even talk about monuments, and that could

:39:10.:39:16.

leave them in a worse position, that anger and resentment,

:39:17.:39:24.

understandable. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. Does he agree,

:39:25.:39:30.

you could have a danger that the consultation could undo the quality,

:39:31.:39:38.

the intention of the policy, to safeguard the interests, of those,

:39:39.:39:42.

chronically infected, and receiving annual payments. But is that annual

:39:43.:39:52.

payment is not longer index linked, some of my constituents have had to

:39:53.:40:02.

take early retirement because of Hep C, making financial assumptions, if

:40:03.:40:06.

this is not going to the index linked, I'm doing -- undoing the

:40:07.:40:18.

sincerity of the apology. I have had similar representations from my

:40:19.:40:25.

constituents, and when we met, representations were some more. I

:40:26.:40:29.

sincerely hope the front bench is listening. The Prime Minister said

:40:30.:40:39.

last year, as a wealthy, successful country, we should be helping people

:40:40.:40:43.

more, I support that, and I hope that the Minister and the Department

:40:44.:40:50.

for health, make sure that the settlements meet the intentions of

:40:51.:40:53.

what was said last year. Thank you very much. I hope we can get through

:40:54.:40:59.

this debate, without having a formal time limit. It is not a contentious

:41:00.:41:08.

debate, on one side or the other. I trust that members are going to

:41:09.:41:18.

become tears, -- be courteous, keeping speeches to seven minutes,

:41:19.:41:22.

everybody who wants to contribute has an opportunity to do so. Thank

:41:23.:41:27.

you Madam Deputy Speaker. And all credit, to the member, my honourable

:41:28.:41:37.

friend, for securing the debate, and the backbench business committee,

:41:38.:41:40.

for granting that. And the members of the campaign who have travelled,

:41:41.:41:47.

to be at the gallery today. Many of them, not able to stay because of

:41:48.:41:51.

the emergency debate, about steel, but many of them have been able to

:41:52.:41:55.

stay and I want to thank them for the patience. I am speaking on

:41:56.:42:06.

behalf of my constituents, the Smith family, who lost their son aged

:42:07.:42:14.

seven. And earlier, Lyn lost her husband. High have spoken about

:42:15.:42:22.

Colin, to describe what has been the greatest treatment disaster. Colin

:42:23.:42:31.

was at hospital, eight months old, ear infection. He received factor

:42:32.:42:35.

eight. Following a Freedom of Information Act quest, it was

:42:36.:42:39.

revealed that it came from a batch, from present. The family, not

:42:40.:42:46.

finding out that it was hepatitis C, until after his death. Now parent

:42:47.:42:53.

should have to go through that. They want justice, so that their son can

:42:54.:43:01.

rest in peace. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. That story,

:43:02.:43:07.

is just many that we have had from constituents, my constituent, David,

:43:08.:43:12.

has told me passionately about his circumstances, clearly, this is a

:43:13.:43:18.

United Kingdom legacy issue, historical injustice. We have heard

:43:19.:43:22.

about the differences between Scotland, and elsewhere. We need to

:43:23.:43:25.

make sure that the United Kingdom works with evolved administrations,

:43:26.:43:30.

and the Wales Office, to make sure we do not have a postcode lottery,

:43:31.:43:34.

with worse situations, some people not getting the same justice as our

:43:35.:43:43.

bus. I thank my honourable friend, for that intervention. I know that

:43:44.:43:51.

is going to be heard from a large contingent of campaigners from

:43:52.:43:58.

Wales. My other constituent, Laim Ashcroft, was one of the first, if

:43:59.:44:05.

contracting HIV, and lost his job, after telling them about his status.

:44:06.:44:19.

No life cover. Following his death, Lyn had to grieve. Eventually,

:44:20.:44:26.

receiving some support, but found the process is brutal. She thought

:44:27.:44:35.

that she was jumping through hoops. We have to keep telling these

:44:36.:44:37.

stories because we have to remember that many people need settlement. It

:44:38.:44:42.

helps to draw line under this period. They have lost loved ones,

:44:43.:44:50.

friends, and as they have told me before, in the end it becomes too

:44:51.:44:55.

difficult to attend constant funerals as members of the community

:44:56.:45:03.

pass away. They want proper support. The Prime Minister's apology, did my

:45:04.:45:13.

constituent Sandra, some hope that the wrong done to her family would

:45:14.:45:19.

right it. But subsequent developments, fly in the face of it,

:45:20.:45:26.

do not tell us you're sorry, show it. I think my honourable friend

:45:27.:45:32.

makes a fantastic, and well-received point. I was going to come onto

:45:33.:45:38.

that. Some hope, last year, when the Prime Minister made the apology, for

:45:39.:45:46.

contaminated disaster, he promised to improve financial support, for

:45:47.:45:50.

the victims and families. As the Prime Minister himself has said, we

:45:51.:45:55.

are wealthy and successful country, we should be helping these people

:45:56.:46:00.

more. Some hope, the consultation was launched to sure what the

:46:01.:46:04.

support should be looking great. But one year on, victims have been let

:46:05.:46:12.

down again. Despite two 125 million, support, not a penny spent, the

:46:13.:46:18.

majority of people are going to be financially worse off, under this

:46:19.:46:23.

scheme. Removing discretionary payments, many people are going to

:46:24.:46:30.

lose out, to the tune of thousands. Significantly for soft, compared to

:46:31.:46:42.

those in Scotland. -- worse off. And the proposed reforms, not delivering

:46:43.:46:50.

the sustainability and security, that the affected communities need.

:46:51.:46:55.

It is not the package needed. It is also not clear, if payments from the

:46:56.:46:59.

new proposals are going to be exempt from tax. What has been proposed is

:47:00.:47:03.

going to be different from what has been offered by the Scottish

:47:04.:47:09.

Government, for widows, the difference is stark. I am going to

:47:10.:47:12.

leave that to the Scottish National Party, but the difference is

:47:13.:47:18.

pointed. Thank you for giving way. Does she not accept, this is one

:47:19.:47:22.

occasion, we should have close working across administrations, one

:47:23.:47:30.

of my constituents, affected 35 years ago, Staffordshire. Although

:47:31.:47:35.

that he has been living in Scotland, he will get compensation, under the

:47:36.:47:39.

scheme that was devised by the Department of him, for England.

:47:40.:47:47.

Where is the sense in that? I thank the honourable member format

:47:48.:47:51.

integration. -- for that intervention. For parents, losing a

:47:52.:48:05.

child, nothing at all. On treatments, Nigel Mills, is here,

:48:06.:48:09.

talking about treatment for Hep C. All those, across Wales, who have

:48:10.:48:16.

developed Hep C, and who could benefit, and the society, hope that

:48:17.:48:21.

everybody should have access to that, and the community should not

:48:22.:48:26.

be diverted, to cover existing treatments. How many times do we

:48:27.:48:30.

keep have to telling these personal stories? And how many times do we

:48:31.:48:34.

keep having to have these debates? How many times the victims have to

:48:35.:48:41.

come to London, to lobby MPs? The society have highlighted weaknesses,

:48:42.:48:45.

and how the consultation should be withdrawn. I ask the Minister, to

:48:46.:48:51.

reflect on this, because what he has proposed, does not meet the needs,

:48:52.:48:55.

of widows, those affected. But this has been an ongoing make me, -- make

:48:56.:49:02.

me, since the 1970s. The government cannot bring back the dead, but it

:49:03.:49:10.

can't ever package, to ensure that survivors prosper. We do not want

:49:11.:49:16.

more agony, for those who have suffered, please listen to this

:49:17.:49:19.

campaign, give the campaign is what they deserve. Thank you very much

:49:20.:49:25.

Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome this important topic, by the backbench

:49:26.:49:30.

business committee, and I want to congratulate my honourable friend,

:49:31.:49:40.

Norwich and Hull, for efforts to secure this debate. I want to

:49:41.:49:49.

recognise the tremendous campaign work, about the contaminated blood,

:49:50.:49:54.

the efforts have paved the way for the current consultation, securing

:49:55.:50:00.

financial settlements, for the thousands of people, infected, with

:50:01.:50:07.

HIV, and Hep C, because of contaminated blood from the 1970s.

:50:08.:50:18.

From the outset, my heart goes out to those people affected, in my

:50:19.:50:21.

constituency and across the country. The devastating impact, on them,

:50:22.:50:28.

family and friends, lasts for lighting. We must do what we to

:50:29.:50:35.

ensure that those affected have secure future. I have personal

:50:36.:50:39.

experience, trying to kill one constituent, who has sadly been

:50:40.:50:48.

impacted -- help one, my constituent was infected, in 1995, at the age of

:50:49.:50:56.

45. Subsequently, contracting Hep C, which has developed, into cirrhosis

:50:57.:51:03.

of the liver. My constituent, who has asked not to be identified, has

:51:04.:51:13.

undergone three courses of treatment, the last course caused a

:51:14.:51:20.

life-threatening infection, causing one month in hospital, and sundry.

:51:21.:51:26.

My constituent suffers from fatigue, physical weakness, brain fog, unable

:51:27.:51:34.

to read anything vaguely complicated, itching, depression,

:51:35.:51:44.

and the stress of living with these conditions must be immeasurable. The

:51:45.:51:47.

government has to do all that it can, to support patients and

:51:48.:51:53.

families. My constituent wanted this case highlighted, as an example,

:51:54.:51:59.

when support for patients, suffering from cirrhosis of the liver, have

:52:00.:52:05.

got financial hardship, and difficult and distressing times. She

:52:06.:52:12.

was grateful, of an income of 14,000, per annum, however, that

:52:13.:52:22.

figure would be 26,000 in Scotland. Almost double. That is an equal. I

:52:23.:52:30.

have a constituent, who wrote to me about this. Tragic case. What I

:52:31.:52:36.

struggle to do, on this point, as explained to her, why constituents

:52:37.:52:41.

across the United Kingdom should be getting such different arrangements,

:52:42.:52:44.

Devon that this arose, under the UK Government. I concur. Particularly

:52:45.:52:56.

concerned, with proposals, two West raw index linking, and refusing to

:52:57.:53:02.

increase out. I understand, currently a recommendation to fix

:53:03.:53:07.

annual payments, at a flat rate of ?15,000, every year, leaving my

:53:08.:53:11.

constituent with a nominal increase, of about 200 and also proposals to

:53:12.:53:18.

withdraw back-up services, for emergencies, and support that will

:53:19.:53:22.

also certainly be required given the severity of the conversion. Could I

:53:23.:53:27.

ask my honourable friend, the minister, to clarify the position,

:53:28.:53:32.

and take my constituent and concerns, into account when final

:53:33.:53:38.

proposals. She previously enjoyed a successful career, in the legal

:53:39.:53:46.

profession, but became too ill to continue following the infection.

:53:47.:53:53.

Career was cut short. As was the considerable earning potential, and

:53:54.:53:58.

professional development. Patients must be treated, with fairness,

:53:59.:54:01.

assist and supported. I am glad the Prime Minister

:54:02.:54:10.

acknowledged the scale of the tragedy and apologised on behalf of

:54:11.:54:12.

the UK Government and I welcome the additional funding for England

:54:13.:54:17.

announced in 2015 to ease the transition to a reform scheme and

:54:18.:54:22.

ensure its sustainable operation. This scheme must provide a robust

:54:23.:54:28.

and fairer system which both supports and compensate those

:54:29.:54:33.

affected and removes any unnecessary complexities and unfairness. I would

:54:34.:54:39.

like to thank the honourable lady for giving way. She mentioned the

:54:40.:54:46.

APPG at the start of her speech and I think it is right that that is

:54:47.:54:48.

highlighted because a lot of light onto this issue.

:54:49.:54:55.

There is a heartbreaking story in every single constituency. I had to

:54:56.:54:59.

constituents who through no fault of their own received contaminated

:55:00.:55:01.

blood products and one of them feels that he has a death sentence hanging

:55:02.:55:06.

over his head. Would she agree with me that we should not add quite

:55:07.:55:11.

literally add insult to injury and adjust the first settlement most

:55:12.:55:15.

people sought and found as soon as possible? I know it is not

:55:16.:55:21.

necessarily our Government that was responsible for the blood products

:55:22.:55:24.

but it is this Government who has two sorted out once and for all. I

:55:25.:55:30.

sincerely hope that the Minister is listening to what the gentleman had

:55:31.:55:35.

to say and we will see the Minister and the Government take action to

:55:36.:55:39.

perhaps write or make it easy for these people to live as good in life

:55:40.:55:47.

as they can expect to. For example, there are currently five different

:55:48.:55:53.

organisations funded by UK health departments to which infected

:55:54.:55:56.

individuals can apply for support. On this aspect, it is encouraging

:55:57.:55:59.

that south of the schemes have said it would be even more efficient and

:56:00.:56:05.

consistent if they were combined. -- staff. Other concerns that have been

:56:06.:56:09.

made should be addressed through the consultation and subsequent

:56:10.:56:15.

proposals. That includes the fact that beneficiaries are not assessed

:56:16.:56:19.

on an individual basis and that bodies operate a different payment

:56:20.:56:23.

policies. The APPG is quite correct in stating that the current system

:56:24.:56:28.

is not fit for purpose. The current consultation being conducted by the

:56:29.:56:31.

Department of Health which concludes this week is a healthy step and I am

:56:32.:56:35.

pleased that it has sought to reach out and seek views of infected

:56:36.:56:40.

patients and their beneficiaries and I would like to congratulate the

:56:41.:56:44.

Minister on that. The outcome must lead to a fair and sustainable

:56:45.:56:51.

solution for my constituents and impacted individuals and families

:56:52.:56:54.

across the country. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank

:56:55.:57:02.

you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to show my admiration for my

:57:03.:57:07.

honourable friend for the sterling work in raising these points and I

:57:08.:57:14.

know from personal experience that the member is a formidable

:57:15.:57:18.

campaigner on this issue. There is no greater responsibility that an MP

:57:19.:57:21.

has done to give a voice to those that feel as though they are not

:57:22.:57:24.

being heard. I want to use this as an opportunity to tell the story of

:57:25.:57:31.

my constituent Alex Smith. Quite a lot of this debate has been about

:57:32.:57:34.

finance and I think that is important and it is quite evident

:57:35.:57:38.

from the consultation and from Government that the drive from their

:57:39.:57:41.

point of view is to squeeze this for every penny that they can do, that I

:57:42.:57:47.

want to talk about the real human cost, the everyday cost shock to

:57:48.:57:52.

those who are effected. Alex is ill. He struggles to get out and about.

:57:53.:57:57.

He often feels worn out, unable to live a fulfilling life that you and

:57:58.:58:00.

I might take for granted. Despite his physical difficulties, he is too

:58:01.:58:07.

many, including me, and inspiring man. He has shown a great strength

:58:08.:58:11.

of character, resilience, and pride. A pride which is the culture of many

:58:12.:58:17.

in our town. But his story is not just heartbreaking. It is unjust.

:58:18.:58:22.

And any fairer society, those who are wrong it should have fairness

:58:23.:58:27.

and the wrong should be put right. Alex and his wife Brenda celebrated

:58:28.:58:34.

the arrival of their son in 1980. And just to put on record how long

:58:35.:58:39.

this family have been waiting for a real justice, in the time since

:58:40.:58:43.

that's blood contamination took place to get answers, to get proper

:58:44.:58:48.

compensation, and now to fight for enough money just to pay the bills,

:58:49.:58:53.

I was born in a hospital down the road. I have been to nursery, a bean

:58:54.:58:57.

to primary school, I've been to secondary school, I've been to

:58:58.:59:01.

college, and I have been to work and I have two sons of my own, the

:59:02.:59:04.

eldest of whom will be leaving school in two years' time and in the

:59:05.:59:08.

time that Alex has had to wait to get justice, I have lived my life

:59:09.:59:12.

and have lived it without many of the difficulties that Alex has had

:59:13.:59:16.

that period and that just is no justice at all. A year after 1980,

:59:17.:59:24.

Brenda was diagnosed with cervical cancer and she received treatment

:59:25.:59:29.

because of that including a blood transfusion. Separate, Alex, being a

:59:30.:59:34.

good citizen, in 1995, whence to give blood, like hundreds of

:59:35.:59:38.

thousands of others, and during that sample test, it was discovered that

:59:39.:59:43.

Alex had hepatitis C. To be honest, he did not really know what it was

:59:44.:59:48.

and he was told that with treatment, it should clear up, so he went to

:59:49.:59:51.

receive treatment and he received the majority of that treatment but

:59:52.:59:54.

it stopped early for other reasons and he thought that was it. But over

:59:55.:00:00.

three years, Alex noticed he was becoming forgetful. He put it down

:00:01.:00:04.

to getting older, some senior moments, but it got worse and

:00:05.:00:08.

increasingly he became worn out, he became tired and lethargic and he

:00:09.:00:11.

struggled but he had the support of his wife and his family by his side.

:00:12.:00:17.

Fast forward ten years and the family received another tragedy when

:00:18.:00:22.

his wife Brenda passes away. The coroner ruled that the case was

:00:23.:00:27.

inconclusive and it was recorded is as an ascertained. We can imagine

:00:28.:00:30.

the grief the family went through and throughout this time, Alex

:00:31.:00:34.

continued to struggle with each and every day. Things you and I would

:00:35.:00:38.

take for granted. In 2011, Alex visited the doctor again and

:00:39.:00:45.

underwent a routine blood test. He discovered the hepatitis C had not

:00:46.:00:48.

gone away at all and it was still there. He went through further

:00:49.:00:51.

treatment but instead of making him feel better, it made him feel much,

:00:52.:00:57.

much worse. He was determined not just to get treatment but to get

:00:58.:01:02.

answers to. So his quest started at the hospital where he felt it began.

:01:03.:01:07.

The records had been destroyed so he realised that to get real justice

:01:08.:01:11.

and to get answers, he would have to track down the people who were there

:01:12.:01:15.

at that time. His quest, his mission, led him to Bangor North

:01:16.:01:19.

Wales where a retired surgeon was living who confirmed that Alex had

:01:20.:01:23.

had a blood transfusion with what was likely to be contaminated blood.

:01:24.:01:30.

And that made Alex think if I in the same hospital had received

:01:31.:01:32.

contaminated blood, could it be that his wife Brenda received treatment

:01:33.:01:39.

in the same hospital had also had contaminated blood and potentially

:01:40.:01:44.

hepatitis C as well? So we went to the hospital to find the records and

:01:45.:01:49.

the record said Brenda did have hepatitis C. Now, cruelly,

:01:50.:01:55.

unexplainable, the hospital did not tell Brenda and they did not tell

:01:56.:01:59.

Alex that this had been discovered. It was only years later when he went

:02:00.:02:02.

back for the medical record that that was discovered. He applied to

:02:03.:02:07.

the Skipton fund and he did receive compensation for himself and his

:02:08.:02:11.

wife as a surviving woodwork but that did not make Alex feel any

:02:12.:02:15.

better physically. He described everyday, just imagine this, as

:02:16.:02:21.

waking up with flu. Every day, seven days per week, 365 days per year

:02:22.:02:26.

feeling like you have got the flu with no end in sight and how that

:02:27.:02:29.

would drag you down and make everyday life feel for people in the

:02:30.:02:38.

house. Alex and Brenda didn't ask to be infected. They didn't ask to

:02:39.:02:42.

spend their lives living in pain and living in poverty. He didn't ask now

:02:43.:02:47.

during this consultation to be made to feel as though he's begging for

:02:48.:02:51.

something he is not entitled to. He has had his life taken away and what

:02:52.:02:54.

he want is justice and fairness and closure and to stop this campaign to

:02:55.:03:00.

get justice and to live a decent lifestyle. I give way. You're making

:03:01.:03:07.

a very serious and sympathetic point, but as well as the suffering,

:03:08.:03:11.

is it not the unrealised potential of these people, the hopes dashed,

:03:12.:03:16.

the dreams never lived, the potential never reached and it is

:03:17.:03:18.

really love those accounts that we really all which of these people and

:03:19.:03:25.

I speak for one of my constituents and urge the Minister really to

:03:26.:03:29.

address this. Absolutely excellent point and during the discussion with

:03:30.:03:33.

Alex when he came to my office he relayed actually through the

:03:34.:03:37.

compensation payment he bought a van to go out to work self-employed but

:03:38.:03:41.

his illness stopped him and eventually he had to sell the ban

:03:42.:03:46.

that ended up sitting on the driveway so you are right. People

:03:47.:03:49.

have been denied opportunities that may be many people in this house

:03:50.:03:52.

would take for granted. It is far more than just an acre or a pain or

:03:53.:03:57.

just not knowing if tomorrow will be better than today, it is the

:03:58.:03:59.

opportunities that have been stolen from people and we all which as a

:04:00.:04:05.

nation, given that it is a state responsibility to put it right once

:04:06.:04:09.

and for all. The payments that we are talking about too many people

:04:10.:04:13.

here will seem like quite small payments. But in some ways, that is

:04:14.:04:18.

what makes this so unfair and so cruel will stop in one of the

:04:19.:04:21.

richest nations in the world, we are talking about penny-pinching from

:04:22.:04:26.

the poorest people in society, those who did not choose to be on the

:04:27.:04:31.

situation and those who need a way forward. ?2000 payment being taken

:04:32.:04:36.

away, a Winter fuel allowance taken away. The prescription payment taken

:04:37.:04:43.

away. The support taken away. ?2000 isn't for everybody, it is for those

:04:44.:04:50.

where 70% of their income is below the average in that area. I do not

:04:51.:04:54.

want to make a party political point about this but it is a bit difficult

:04:55.:04:58.

when the Government of the day are the ones who could put this right

:04:59.:05:01.

and are choosing to drag this out and to prolong the agony and the

:05:02.:05:04.

pain. But when it eventually does come to a fault and members vote in

:05:05.:05:09.

the lobbies of this house, we will all be voting this year after

:05:10.:05:15.

receiving a pay rise, well done is, aren't we fantastic? By people out

:05:16.:05:19.

there are not asking for a pay rise, they are asking just to get by, just

:05:20.:05:24.

up the money to pay the bills and for justice and minister you have

:05:25.:05:26.

the ability to put this right once and for also take it. Thank you very

:05:27.:05:34.

much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am also very glad to be able to take

:05:35.:05:38.

part in this debate along with honourable members across the house

:05:39.:05:41.

in having secured this important and sombre topic. I have spoken in this

:05:42.:05:48.

house already fought to constituents and this was back in 2015. One of

:05:49.:05:53.

those is I believe present in London today. One of the others has since

:05:54.:05:59.

passed away and that lady is Annie Walker of Norwich. She was one of

:06:00.:06:03.

thousands of people nationwide given infected blood by the NHS during

:06:04.:06:09.

those decades and a letter fighting almost all throughout adult life.

:06:10.:06:15.

She contracted hepatitis C for another routine blood transfusion at

:06:16.:06:19.

the age of just 19 which then caused cirrhosis of liver and lead to

:06:20.:06:22.

cancer in later years. In spite of the liver transplants in those

:06:23.:06:30.

months since, I have last spoken for her, she was given just months to

:06:31.:06:34.

live after being told that the cancer had spread. And she, like

:06:35.:06:37.

many others, throughout and this campaign to increase awareness of

:06:38.:06:41.

hepatitis C and permitted treatment of those effected by the scandal and

:06:42.:06:45.

the first thing I want to do today in my time is to pay tribute to her

:06:46.:06:51.

courage and her tireless miss in doing that for others whilst she was

:06:52.:06:56.

suffering so badly for herself. In addition to those items that have

:06:57.:07:00.

already been raised here today and to the origin of the Minister to do

:07:01.:07:04.

everything she can to put this historic wrong now right, I would

:07:05.:07:10.

like to add just a few things. I would like to urge the Minister to

:07:11.:07:14.

look again at the index. I think it is important that we seek to

:07:15.:07:17.

maintain the value of the payments that are made to those who are

:07:18.:07:21.

suffering. I would like to urge her to stick to her guns in making these

:07:22.:07:26.

future payments simple or more simple brother and more dignified

:07:27.:07:31.

than having to go to a motley collection of charitable funds. I

:07:32.:07:35.

would also like actually to urge the Minister to stick to what she laid

:07:36.:07:39.

out in this house where she established that her own effect was

:07:40.:07:44.

to get annual payments to some of those who did not yet received them

:07:45.:07:50.

and to have not been included in those funds, who currently get no

:07:51.:07:53.

regular support. It is a good thing to do to seek to includes some of

:07:54.:07:59.

those people in this scheme. I think that the other half of her aim is

:08:00.:08:04.

equally crucial which is not to remove payment from any other

:08:05.:08:09.

person. It is that to which we all hold her accountable. Like others, I

:08:10.:08:15.

welcome what is in fact the doubling of the funding available through the

:08:16.:08:18.

NHS and I would like to add one more argument to this, I also welcome the

:08:19.:08:24.

action the Minister has laid out on treatment and this is something I

:08:25.:08:28.

have argued a number of times in this house and it is because of a

:08:29.:08:32.

third constituent who came to see me after we had last held this debate

:08:33.:08:36.

here and he suffers from severe sclerosis of the liver and he needs

:08:37.:08:40.

those drugs, that new generation of drugs, and we should make those

:08:41.:08:43.

drugs available as soon as possible or those whose could then suffer

:08:44.:08:52.

less. The sheer idea that we have to have a dilemma between doctors

:08:53.:08:56.

treating the sickest first or treating those who could then be

:08:57.:09:00.

prevented from getting sicker, this is a dreadful, dreadful dilemma and

:09:01.:09:06.

I welcome the opportunity that is represented in the scheme as

:09:07.:09:09.

proposed, that we may be able to prevent that dreadful dilemma from

:09:10.:09:14.

being forced to take place in Doctor's surgeries and hospitals up

:09:15.:09:15.

and down the land. Delicate thing to do, prioritising

:09:16.:09:31.

treatment, but that is exactly what we have to do, on behalf of the

:09:32.:09:37.

constituents, and doctors have to make those decisions, every day. On

:09:38.:09:41.

balance, I think it is the correct thing to do, so that the dreadful

:09:42.:09:47.

dilemma can perhaps be stopped. Given such a historic wrong done to

:09:48.:10:00.

fellow human beings, I could not look that constituent in the eye,

:10:01.:10:05.

until then that I had been arguing against that proposal. What I want

:10:06.:10:15.

to do, is return to the example, Annie Walker, my constituent, who

:10:16.:10:28.

has passed away. My heart goes to the family and friends. Every

:10:29.:10:32.

individual death, emphasises the tragedy of this scandal. It is a

:10:33.:10:39.

national scandal, national tragedy. The site must go on. Somebody like

:10:40.:10:49.

Annie, fought that fight, with my support, as is the case for many in

:10:50.:10:55.

London today. I would answer, for many affected, and for those who

:10:56.:10:59.

have not come forward, to do so and looked at the consultation before

:11:00.:11:03.

the last few days. Because we can only attempt to get this right, with

:11:04.:11:08.

information from those affected. Yes. I thank the honourable member,

:11:09.:11:18.

would she agree with the sentiment, of my constituent, who I believe is

:11:19.:11:22.

here today. He came to my office last week. It is a face many would

:11:23.:11:30.

recognise, almost looking when somebody who had been kicked in the

:11:31.:11:36.

teeth. He said that the government has to act, for British

:11:37.:11:43.

haemophiliacs, hoping that we could tell the government, how poultry the

:11:44.:11:57.

meaning is. I will let the words speak for themselves. It is to us to

:11:58.:12:02.

get this correct. Annie told me that she did not have the strength to

:12:03.:12:05.

keep on fighting, sadly that has come true. It is up to us to speak

:12:06.:12:15.

up, and do that this will -- with both finance and treatment, I am

:12:16.:12:20.

watching the Minister to listen carefully, to what she has held

:12:21.:12:27.

today, but even more from the consultation. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:12:28.:12:31.

one of the first actions, that I took following my election, was to

:12:32.:12:38.

highlight the plight of the contaminated blood, I was rating to

:12:39.:12:41.

the Department of Hills, following discussions. In July 2015, I also

:12:42.:12:50.

raised a motion, to recognise ongoing hardship and challenges

:12:51.:12:55.

faced, by those with contaminated blood, to encourage the Prime

:12:56.:12:58.

Minister to implement and distribute an additional ?25 million, to those

:12:59.:13:05.

affected as is possible. Infected blood is one of the most terrible

:13:06.:13:11.

chapters, in the history of the NHS. Many people have died, suffering

:13:12.:13:17.

disability, as a result of the infection. Relatives have had to

:13:18.:13:22.

sacrifice careers, to provide support, and partners, loved ones,

:13:23.:13:31.

have become infected, carers have dealt with that with incredible

:13:32.:13:41.

courage. One of my constituents, had a rare treatment, requiring blood

:13:42.:13:48.

transfusions, infected 42 years ago, I had an woman with her life ahead

:13:49.:13:55.

of her. Following a transfusion, she developed symptoms, of hepatitis,

:13:56.:14:00.

suffering from chronic conditions, that have rendered her to remain

:14:01.:14:09.

upright more than ten minutes at a time. Them becoming fatigued, as a

:14:10.:14:15.

result of the infections. Although now living in Scotland, she was

:14:16.:14:20.

infected in England. The liability of the card and schemes, revolve

:14:21.:14:28.

around where they were infected. This means that the English schemes

:14:29.:14:36.

are responsible for supporting Julie, delivering financial support

:14:37.:14:41.

that she requires. Julie, currently classed as stage one, received a

:14:42.:14:47.

payment of ?20,000, but no annual reward. Julie's particular medical

:14:48.:14:54.

condition, she has problems meeting the criteria for stage two, that

:14:55.:14:59.

would increase payments, and provide approximately ?15,000, per annum, in

:15:00.:15:12.

support. I have reviewed, Julie's correspondent with the Skipton Fund,

:15:13.:15:18.

and the responses have been even perhaps deliberately obtuse. I thank

:15:19.:15:23.

my honourable friend for giving me the opportunity, to raise the

:15:24.:15:31.

example, of my constituent, who lost her partner. Leaving her and her now

:15:32.:15:40.

14-year-old daughter with no support. Since then, they have

:15:41.:15:45.

received little, almost no government support. Today, remaining

:15:46.:15:50.

in a state of limbo, where the government dithers. The government,

:15:51.:15:59.

having dragged its heels for years, must now start to act, to support

:16:00.:16:03.

the survivals of the scandal. I am grateful to my honourable friend. It

:16:04.:16:09.

is up tragic case. I will come to the specific point that he has made

:16:10.:16:16.

shortly. On the 24th of January, 2016, veterans Minister said that

:16:17.:16:18.

the government wants to increase the money on offer, for the victims of

:16:19.:16:24.

infected blood by 1 million. In addition to the ?25 million,

:16:25.:16:28.

announced by the Prime Minister, this takes the total to ?225

:16:29.:16:34.

million, over the five years, to 2020. As we know, 12 week

:16:35.:16:43.

consultations, closing this week. However, the proposed payments had

:16:44.:16:46.

been heavily criticised by many of those affected, for being outdated,

:16:47.:16:53.

the structure, and that is my experience also. They also seem

:16:54.:16:59.

unfair. The UK Government has also predicted another 5.7 million will

:17:00.:17:04.

be spent, over the projected life team, of the reform scheme. But

:17:05.:17:07.

analysis has shown that the Department of hills, -- Health wants

:17:08.:17:19.

to cut payments, increasing the cost of living. The UK Government also

:17:20.:17:23.

wants to remove, regular discretionary payments, including

:17:24.:17:31.

the winter fuel allowance, and child annual payment. That point,

:17:32.:17:38.

regarding the cost of living, I have got several constituents in the same

:17:39.:17:44.

situation. One of them suggested, she mentioned payments being

:17:45.:17:46.

increased, to the level, of the minimum wage. I would absolutely

:17:47.:17:53.

support that suggestion. And I would note as well, many victims across

:17:54.:17:59.

England, face cuts, and together with cumulative losses, from fixed

:18:00.:18:11.

annual payments, 15,000 a year, time limited support for partners, after

:18:12.:18:18.

death, and the ending of help, for children and parents of those

:18:19.:18:22.

affected. No more access for support, for those with mobility

:18:23.:18:31.

issues, or expelled advice. The haemophiliacs society have said that

:18:32.:18:35.

they have deep concerns about proposals for England, comparing

:18:36.:18:40.

them to Scotland, the concern is compounded by the proposals from

:18:41.:18:49.

Scotland, far better, and that if both of the proposals are accepted

:18:50.:18:52.

as they currently stand, affected people across England will receive

:18:53.:18:56.

much more levels of income, than those at Scotland. The Scottish

:18:57.:19:00.

Government has already provided ?42 million, over the last ten years, to

:19:01.:19:09.

the current UK wide schemes. Already committed to supporting those

:19:10.:19:14.

affected across Scotland. But on 18 March this year, the Scottish

:19:15.:19:18.

Government announced increased support, for those affected,

:19:19.:19:25.

amounting to an additional 20 million, over the next three years.

:19:26.:19:31.

The new Scottish scheme is going to see annual payments, for those with

:19:32.:19:40.

HIV, and Hep C, 22 almost 20 7000. And for those affected, with both

:19:41.:19:45.

HIV and Hep C, annual payments will increase from 30,000, 230 7000. --

:19:46.:20:00.

to 37,000. Wouldn't be open to save that the increased levels, for

:20:01.:20:08.

Scotland, rather than where they get the infection? It would be an issue,

:20:09.:20:16.

of liability. No response to the payment. In addition to the measures

:20:17.:20:19.

that have already been announced, and you support and assistance grant

:20:20.:20:24.

will be established in Scotland, to provide more flexible grants, and

:20:25.:20:28.

additional needs. Scottish Government funding will be increased

:20:29.:20:33.

from 300,000, to 1 million, per year. In real terms... Additional

:20:34.:20:41.

financial support, available for all the affected people, and in

:20:42.:20:52.

Scotland, this is not the end of the process, there will be ongoing work

:20:53.:20:56.

with patient groups. In all the Roman contrast to the Scottish

:20:57.:20:59.

Government, the UK Government are proposing to cut funding, leaving

:21:00.:21:03.

vulnerable people thousands of pounds every year, worse off. It is

:21:04.:21:09.

extremely disappointing, but the UK Government do not think it is

:21:10.:21:12.

important, to support those that were affected, at England, and shows

:21:13.:21:20.

that the priorities lie with austerity, not with the victims of

:21:21.:21:24.

this terrible scandal. It is time for the UK Government, to support

:21:25.:21:32.

those, who have had lives ruined, and for people like Julie, anything

:21:33.:21:40.

less is literally insult to injury. Can I congratulate the honourable

:21:41.:21:46.

member, for Hull North, for securing the debate. And for the valuable

:21:47.:21:51.

work that they have been doing. All the members across the house,

:21:52.:21:56.

receive a huge number of letters, emails, meetings with constituents,

:21:57.:22:07.

about a huge number of issues. Occasionally, an email arrives,

:22:08.:22:10.

stops you in your tracks. It demands the attention of the house. I

:22:11.:22:18.

received such an email on June two last year. Just four weeks after

:22:19.:22:26.

being elected. Madam Deputy Speaker, she is with us this afternoon. One

:22:27.:22:32.

of many of the people who have come, to be here this afternoon. With

:22:33.:22:41.

permission, I want to read a short excerpt, summing up better than I

:22:42.:22:46.

could, the human impact of what is a national tragedy. This is what was

:22:47.:22:56.

written. She said, that my late husband, was an haemophiliac, Devon

:22:57.:23:02.

contaminated blood, dying in 1991, Aids, Hep B, Hep C. His death ripped

:23:03.:23:10.

my family apart. My children lead compromise late, and I have severe

:23:11.:23:18.

financial difficulties, to this day, despite doing everything possible,

:23:19.:23:23.

to help myself recover, from a wrecked career, as a teacher,

:23:24.:23:28.

retiring at the age of 50, on attaining pension. I have worked in

:23:29.:23:33.

hospitals, but following major sundries, I have more less retired.

:23:34.:23:39.

I have been campaigning for tortillas, for the truth, and

:23:40.:23:43.

justice. And Madam Deputy Speaker, those are two of the crucial

:23:44.:23:47.

elements that we must discuss. The truth, and justice.

:23:48.:23:52.

I appreciate his generosity and I share his concern. My constituent

:23:53.:23:58.

was given 11 units of contaminated blood and tested positive for

:23:59.:24:04.

hepatitis C nine years later. One of his biggest concerns is his wife

:24:05.:24:07.

will not have the security to pay for the mortgage if he dies before

:24:08.:24:13.

her. Does he share my concern that read spouses should have proper

:24:14.:24:17.

security and financial support for the rest of their lives? We should

:24:18.:24:22.

be looking beyond those immediately affected personally by the health

:24:23.:24:26.

effects and looking at the effect on the wider family and loved ones and

:24:27.:24:29.

that is something I will refer to at a later stage. Mr Deputy Speaker,

:24:30.:24:36.

truth and justice is what this is all about. We are at a stage where I

:24:37.:24:41.

think we really could deliver both of those. The consultation is under

:24:42.:24:46.

way. We had the announcement from my honourable friend the Minister in

:24:47.:24:50.

January this year. We have a groundswell of public opinion. These

:24:51.:24:55.

three factors mean we are at a crossroads. We may never have this

:24:56.:25:00.

opportunity again. Campaigners acknowledge since 2010 the

:25:01.:25:05.

Government has listened. We have made progress, more than in the

:25:06.:25:11.

past. But the position is this, the consultation will close in three

:25:12.:25:17.

days' time. Just three days. It is clear there is still a great deal of

:25:18.:25:20.

unhappiness with the options on the table. The status quo, the existing

:25:21.:25:26.

scheme, with confusing and inadequate provision, is

:25:27.:25:31.

unacceptable. Neither is the alternative option, which seems to

:25:32.:25:35.

propose a solution which fails to tackle the fundamental problem of

:25:36.:25:39.

their financial provision. Both for those receiving contaminated blood,

:25:40.:25:45.

and living with health consequences, and importantly for the families and

:25:46.:25:49.

loved ones caring for them, or who grieve for them. Mr Deputy Speaker,

:25:50.:25:57.

we must be realistic. Almost every decision we taken displays, this

:25:58.:26:00.

does the end come down to money. We know money is tight. It would not be

:26:01.:26:05.

realistic, it would be irresponsible to ask for an open cheque, or for

:26:06.:26:11.

funding to be taken from equally worthwhile projects elsewhere in the

:26:12.:26:15.

health budget. What I appeal for today from the Government on behalf

:26:16.:26:21.

of my constituent and others with us are two perhaps even more precious

:26:22.:26:26.

commodities, time and understanding. Time for the people including my

:26:27.:26:30.

constituent to have their case adequately heard by the Government.

:26:31.:26:35.

Not to be bounced into accepting one of these two options. Neither of

:26:36.:26:38.

which they believe to be fair or adequate. Yes, of course. Very

:26:39.:26:48.

powerful speech on behalf of his constituency. Would he agree it

:26:49.:26:51.

would be tragic at the end of this consultation if some victims were

:26:52.:26:53.

worse off because of the consultation? None of us would want

:26:54.:27:00.

that. We must wait to hear what the minister says in winding up. I'm

:27:01.:27:03.

sure that is what we would all be aiming for. At least the people that

:27:04.:27:09.

have fought so hard for truth and justice, they deserve to have a fair

:27:10.:27:14.

hearing. Mr Deputy Speaker, for many, time is running out. They find

:27:15.:27:19.

themselves in a heartbreaking position, facing the inevitable

:27:20.:27:24.

health consequences of what was a historic failure of the National

:27:25.:27:31.

health Service. Of course. I must applaud massively the work of the

:27:32.:27:34.

organisation which has been working for so long but he mentioned time

:27:35.:27:37.

and I have just received a text message from one of my constituent,

:27:38.:27:44.

who does not want to be named, about the stark reality, that those

:27:45.:27:46.

infected are dying at a rate of one per month. Time for these people

:27:47.:27:56.

really is of the essence. I believe there was an informal time limit of

:27:57.:27:59.

seven minutes. There is one minute left. If we cannot get it down to

:28:00.:28:04.

six minutes, I will have two put a formal time limit, which I do not

:28:05.:28:11.

want to do. I understand, Mr Deputy Speaker. Time is running out. People

:28:12.:28:16.

find themselves in an impossible position. I do not seek to extend

:28:17.:28:22.

this process unnecessarily. But this deadline of April the 15th cannot

:28:23.:28:27.

and must not be the end of this story. It cannot be a deadline after

:28:28.:28:30.

which a decision is simply handed down. Let's give a proper respectful

:28:31.:28:35.

hearing to those who believe an injustice is about to be done and

:28:36.:28:41.

try and put it right. And the second thing I said we needed is

:28:42.:28:44.

understanding. This has devastated the lives of many people, including

:28:45.:28:49.

my constituent, so I end as I began with her words in an e-mail. "At The

:28:50.:28:54.

moment I haven't the slightest idea how I will be able to manage and I

:28:55.:28:58.

am in complete despair. It has occurred to me several times, after

:28:59.:29:02.

fighting this for over three decades, I really do not want to

:29:03.:29:09.

carry on. " I say this to my constituent and the other

:29:10.:29:11.

campaigners with us, do carry on, tell us what we need to know, as my

:29:12.:29:16.

honourable friend who has left her position, I think for Norwich North,

:29:17.:29:20.

she said, it is only by hearing the true life stories of those affected

:29:21.:29:23.

that my honourable friend the Minister, who I know is listening,

:29:24.:29:29.

will take very careful note. And I conclude by saying this, Mr Deputy

:29:30.:29:32.

Speaker. For my constituent and for many thousands of others, let's do

:29:33.:29:38.

all we can to deliver what they want and deserve. Truth and fairness and

:29:39.:29:50.

justice. Sir Gerald Coffman. Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you for

:29:51.:29:54.

calling me. I would like to join with other members of Parliament in

:29:55.:29:58.

thanking my honourable friend, the member for Hull North, for the work

:29:59.:30:03.

she has done on this, which among other things has meant we have this

:30:04.:30:10.

debate today. Everything that we deal with in this House of Commons

:30:11.:30:14.

is about people. Whether it is Syrian refugees, south Wales

:30:15.:30:23.

steelworks, whatever we do deals with the lives of people. And we are

:30:24.:30:33.

somehow or other led to believe that the larger the number of people the

:30:34.:30:40.

more important the issue is. And I think that is a basic problem. About

:30:41.:30:52.

this issue. There are not a huge number of people who are affected by

:30:53.:30:59.

blood contamination. But those people are affected in a way which

:31:00.:31:05.

damages their lives every minute of every day. I would not know about

:31:06.:31:13.

this issue if it were not for a person in my constituency who has

:31:14.:31:20.

been in contact with me year after year after year after year so that I

:31:21.:31:26.

have a file of correspondence so enormous that I would not be able to

:31:27.:31:31.

bring it into this chamber. And two has been in touch with me asking me

:31:32.:31:37.

to participate in this debate and ask a specific question. Let's be

:31:38.:31:42.

clear about this. I do not accuse the Government of rain heartless. --

:31:43.:31:49.

being heartless. It would been the to do that taking into account the

:31:50.:31:54.

suffering of people involved. But they do not seem to be grasping the

:31:55.:32:02.

way in which a process should have been preceded effectively and with

:32:03.:32:13.

an outcome has been left in such a way that we still cannot believe we

:32:14.:32:16.

are going to have a result. We still cannot believe that the outcome is

:32:17.:32:25.

going to be known and potentially to satisfy the relatively small number

:32:26.:32:30.

of each of our constituents who suffers in this way. But when I say

:32:31.:32:38.

it is a small number, it is 100% of their lives. And although it may

:32:39.:32:48.

well be that every member in this chamber has in her roar his family

:32:49.:32:50.

somebody who suffers from some

:32:51.:32:56.

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