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Point of order. On the 2nd of December in this House, the Prime | :00:12. | :00:20. | |
Minister, during the debate about Syria, promised that there would be | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
regular quarterly progress reports to this House about the progress, | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
military action against Daesh. Mr Speaker, I think the longest water | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
could last 92 days, I think it is now 133 days since that pledge was | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
made. Mr Speaker, have you had any indication from the Government that | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
they intend making this quarterly progress report so that we can see | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
what action is being taken and whether it has been effective? I am | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
grateful to the honourable gentleman on both his point of order and his | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
advance notice of it. The question of how the Government fulfils a | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
commitment to the House is principally a matter for ministers. | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
What I would say to that honourable gentleman is that having take some | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
taking a keen interest in this matter, he will know that the report | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
was presented to the House in December, and that a second report, | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
which I think was billed or tagged as a quarterly report, was then | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
provided by the Secretary of State for International Development on the | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
8th of February. If memory serves me correctly, it was a written report. | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
It may well be that the honourable gentleman and some other members | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
were hoping for or even expecting an oral report. That is however not a | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
matter for the chair. The only report I would gently make, and the | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
Government, to be fair, have made a very large number of statements to | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
the House over the last few years, that is not a matter of speculation | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
but of fact. As the Foreign Secretary himself had unavoidably to | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
be absent from the Foreign Office questions yesterday, prompting a | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
modicum of comment from his own side, though he had done me the | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
courtesy of notifying me beforehand, it might be thought a good idea for | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
a subsequent report to be provided by the Foreign Secretary to the | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
House, and if there is an appetite for that report to be oral, I know | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
it will be delivered by the Foreign Secretary with great dexterity. It | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
will also have the additional advantage, I say in inverted commas, | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
as a matter for the House to decide, of pleasing and honourable gentleman | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
from the Liberal Democrat benches. Point of order, Mr Paul Blomfield. | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
'S, you will be aware of the decision by the business, innovation | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
and skills department to close its Sheffield policy office. Despite | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
repeated requests at the Select Committee for the department to | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
share the figures on which the decision was based, the permanent | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
Secretary told the committee, and I quote, I do not think I can point | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
you want -- one specific document that covers this issue. In answer to | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
the question about the costs at the Public Accounts Committee, he said | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
the decision was, again I quote, not based on individual cost when a fit | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
analysis of a static closure. Spurs, I have had access to a document | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
entitled Finance and headcount outlying which does specifically | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
cover the Sheffield position, and is in the permanent Secretary's words, | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
an individual analysis of a static closure. Could you therefore clarify | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
whether the permanent Secretary's words do constitute misleading the | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
House, and can you advise me on how I can get the information in front | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
of the two committees that have requested it? I am grateful to the | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
honourable gentleman, but my instinct of reaction to him is that | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
the exegesis of what is said by Government, including by permanent | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
secretaries, and adjudication upon it, not proper matters for the | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
chair. I think it is safer to keep out of that. It may will be that it | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
is the subject of some dispute and the honourable gentleman is | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
dissatisfied. It is really however for the committees concerned, I must | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
underline this, to press the committee is concerned, I must | :04:29. | :04:30. | |
underline this, depressingly formation they require. -- to press | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
for the information. If they are dissatisfied with what they have had | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
or not had, they should persist, and there are well-established | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
procedures for doing so, although we have a feeling that by putting his | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
concerns on the record he may well find that the Government is able and | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
inclined to offer the information that the Doak requires. Point of | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
order. Thank you, and apologies for not giving advance notice because I | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
had hoped it would be raised in prime ministers questions. On the | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
28th of October 2015, in a letter to my right, ball friend the Prime | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
Minister, Sir John Chilcot said that the Iraqi report would be available, | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
the text of the report will be available on the week commencing the | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
18th of April 2016, at which point it would be passed over to the | :05:21. | :05:22. | |
security services for tracking. Given that that is Monday, I wonder | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
if you have received notice from the Government that they intend to make | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
a statement to the House as to when this long-awaited report will be | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
available. I have received no such indication of an imminent statement. | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
I think that when this issue has been aired in the House, the sense | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
of dissatisfaction across the chamber has been audible, frankly, | :05:50. | :05:57. | |
not just to the chair, but to millions of people throughout the | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
country. It has become exceptionally and excessively protracted. So I | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
understand his frustration, to put it on the record again, and it will | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
have been heard in the appropriate quarters. But have I received | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
indication of a statement? I'm afraid I haven't. If there are no | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
further points of order, perhaps we can come to the ten minute rule | :06:21. | :06:22. | |
motion. Joan Ryan. I would like to eventually be given | :06:23. | :06:31. | |
to bring any bill that require its schedule eight this option payments | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
between Network Rail and train operators to be allocated to | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
specified projects aimed at increasing the quality, value for | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
money and the viability of passenger experience of railway travel and | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
associated services for connected purposes. I am grateful for the | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
opportunity to present this bill to the house today, the purposes of | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
which are threefold. Firstly, it seeks to improve services on offer | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
to rail commuters across the country. Secondly, it aims to ensure | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
millions of pounds of taxpayer money is directed toward benefiting | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
passengers rather than lining the pockets of train operating | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
companies. Thirdly, the bill seeks to shine a light on a part of the | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
rail industry which is a bewildering in its complexity and open it up to | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
greater public scrutiny and accountability. This bill would | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
create a responsibility for the regulator to guarantee any net | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
income made by train operators from schedule eight payments and | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
mortality is used to fund overall passenger benefits on the network. | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
It is important to note this bill is not intended to stop or replace | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
current compensation arrangements between train operators and | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
passengers was reimburse passengers for delays. Mr Speaker, rail | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
commuters in Enfield and throughout the country are getting a raw deal. | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
They are paying sky-high ticket prices for a rock bottom surface. | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
They are currently having to endure the worst performers in terms of | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
train punctuality for almost a decade. In 2014-15, 47 million | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
passenger journeys on the railways were either cancelled or delayed. | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
Members of the public are shocked when they learn train operators can | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
actually make a profit from Network Rail failures. If trains are delayed | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
or cancelled and the responsibility lies with Network Rail, for instance | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
when work or power fails, the Network Rail compensation payments | :08:43. | :08:51. | |
to train operators. These are what is known as internet industry | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
arrangements or schedule eight this option payments. Train operators are | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
not obliged to reinvest this money in services for passengers and the | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
payments received from Network Rail bear no relation to the passenger | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
compensation schemes between the train operators and their customers. | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
Only a fraction of what train operators receive an payments from | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
Network Rail is ever passed on to commuters whose journeys have been | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
disrupted. Passengers are certainly not helped to claim what they are | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
owed for delays given a train operators make it so difficult for | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
them to access compensation. It is really important that passengers are | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
made more aware of the rights so I applaud the recent work of Which and | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
their Make A Real Refunds Easier campaign for putting pressure on | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
train operators to make the process simpler, fairer and more accessible | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
to commuters. I call on the Government to bring rail travel | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
within the EU consumer rights act. The unfairness of the current | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
structure of the railway compensation payments is rarely | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
brought to light when we consider how much money is involved and how | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
poorly passengers are being compensated compared to train | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
operators. I commend the work of my honourable friend for nothing come | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
south and the shadow transport team who have recently exposed this | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
issue. The analysis shows that between 2010 and 2015 Network Rail | :10:21. | :10:28. | |
paid out ?575 million to train operators in schedule eight | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
payments. Over the same period train operators only provided compensation | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
to passengers to the tune of ?73 million. This is a compensation gap | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
of more than half ?1 billion. A substantial boost to train operating | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
companies profit margins. I accept train operators should be able to | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
cover costs of loss of revenue the in car which arise from the | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
unplanned delays caused by Network Rail. But what they should not be | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
able to do is make a profit over and above these costs from train delays | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
and cancellations. That is just plain wrong. From 2014-15 the | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
Government provided a grant payment to Network Rail of ?3.8 billion. | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
Therefore, to add insult to injury, a significant amount of taxpayer | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
money flows from Network Rail back to private train operating | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
companies, many of them ultimately owned by foreign governments under | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
schedule eight payments. It is scandalous that a system can be | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
designed in such a way that the very people using the rail network and | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
who are most affected by poor standard of service on offer, Sachs | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
being commuters, and entered contributing to train operators | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
profits, out of the own misery. How can this be right? Where is the | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
accountability for the fear being taxpaying public regarding how the | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
system operates and where this money goes? The real expert, Kristian | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
Walmart, has said, in an ideal world train operators would only get back | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
the actual money that unexpected delays cost them, however the level | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
is determined by an economic model but only vaguely reflects the impact | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
of the least felt I passengers. So vaguely to be meaningless. He goes | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
on to say that the current system, does the railways and no credit and | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
create the perverse incentives that plague the industry. I could not | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
agree more. This situation must change. We need a way of linking | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
schedule eight payments to benefits which improve customer experience of | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
railways and this bill will make that happen. I want the rail | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
regulator to be given the power to ensure train operating companies | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
have to provide a full disclosure or any net profit they might make from | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
schedule eight payments. This information should be made available | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
to the public and with rigorous monitoring by the regulator that | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
money should then be put towards improving customer experience and | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
giving them a high value service. These measures could include | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
retaining ticket office staff, facilitating easier access into a | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
station platform and trains, free Wi-Fi on trains or using the money | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
towards paying for a guarantee that trend will not miss start out, a | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
particular frustration for a number of my constituents. These are just a | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
few suggestions and I think it would be a very good idea to consult | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
passengers on the improvements they want to see to their services, | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
should this bill become law. It is clear from recent evidence the rail | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
regulator understands many of these issues I am looking to address what | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
this bill. At the end of last year the regulator and Network Rail every | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
a ?4 million real reparation fund to benefit commuters directly affected | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
by poor performance on routes provided by pens like, Southern and | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
Gatwick Express services. By increasing the staff at stations, | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
employing more track workers to deal with disruptions and introducing | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
incident management software, to resolve issues on routes more | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
quickly, the regulators sought to enhance services for passengers | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
affected by poor performance. I want a permanent rather than temporary | :14:34. | :14:35. | |
scheme in place which can benefit all passengers across the country. | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
However the real reparation fund example is an important first step | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
by the regulator, and what it has set out to achieve and reinforces | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
the fundamental principle which lies at the heart of this bill before you | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
today. Improving rail passenger services should be a top priority | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
for Network Rail and train operators. Commuters should not be | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
left waiting on platforms whilst train operators pick up big profits | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
from the rail industry's complex, or pick an unfair compensation | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
arrangements. Mr Speaker, I would like to thank my colleagues across | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
the house who have agreed to sponsor my motion today. This support shows | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
the extent to which we all want to see the rail industry reformed for | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
the benefit of passengers, our constituents, and it is for all | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
these reasons I commend this bill to the house. The question is the | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no. I think the ayes have | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
it. Who will prepare and bring in the bill? From break, Julie Elliott, | :15:50. | :16:01. | |
Louise Almond, Frank Field, Calvert Hopkins, Peter Keil, Caroline Lucas, | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
Siobhan McDonald, will cleanse, Henry Smith, Charles Walker and | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
myself, served. Improvement of rail passenger | :16:11. | :16:51. | |
services use of destruction payment bill. Second reading, what they? | :16:52. | :16:59. | |
22nd of April 20 16. 22nd of April 20 16. Thank you. We now come to the | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
first of our two opposition the debates. The motion is in the name | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
of the Leader of the Opposition and to move the motion I caught the | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
Shadow Chancellor of page at that, Mr John McDonnell. I wish to move | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
the motion that spans and might name and that of my honourable friends. I | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
see the Chancellor is again absent to date much as I look forward to | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
seeing the baby as members of his team I just wonder is there a | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
specific reason for him not being here. -- seeing the members of this | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
team. Is it critical? Can I then say to him in terms of his attendance at | :17:49. | :17:59. | |
the IMF, maybe he wrote the IMF report from yesterday which | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
downgraded the growth expectations of our economy and maybe think again | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
with regard to the policy he is pursuing which failed to in our | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
economy, infrastructure, skills and new technology we need to compete in | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
the world market. Maybe we can send them a letter as he was passing | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
through he can say hello to the chamber. Thank you very much. On tax | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
avoidance and evasion we must move the debate on to the issues of them | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
and effectiveness of our tax system. I say to the house we need to do so | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
as constructively as we can. The pick of documents from Panama amours | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
Mossack Fonseca has provoked an extraordinary public discussion. An | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
entire head and Walters limbo until light. What is rebuilding is | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
profoundly unsettling we know that Mossack Fonseca sat at the centre of | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
the vast web of tax evasion and avoidance. The world's super rich | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
commission its services to hide their income and wealth from the | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
public eyes. Some had plainly criminal intentions. Money from the | :19:06. | :19:15. | |
robbery was laundered through a shell company set up by Mossack | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
Fonseca and a Mexican drug baron held his money in a shell company | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
also established by Mossack Fonseca. Thank you for giving way. You raise | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
some very disturbing point about Vladimir Putin and the Russian | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
regime. Can he conform with the shadow Treasury spokesman raised any | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
of those issues with regards the Russian administration when he was | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
originally on Roger Today? Even if not criminals many of Mossack | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
Fonseca's clients, if not all, happy strong intention of avoiding or | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
evading taxes otherwise due them. -- had the intention. Would he agree | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
with me that this is a real issue for others in London, particularly | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
at the impact these shady characters have on our London property market | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
and the tragedy that people cannot get onto the housing ladder who are | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
Londoners and wish to remain in London and must move outside because | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
these criminal elements of messing up the international system? It | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
confirms the need for open and public disclosure of beneficiary | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
ownership and beneficial interest because as the honourable lady nose | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
and every London MP knows, the speculation of property in the | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
capital city is denying many of our constituents a decent roof over | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
their heads. If I can press on and will give way shortly. Mossack | :20:43. | :20:50. | |
Fonseca exploited the presence of loopholes and entire jurisdictions | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
that favourite secrecy and minimal taxation. We can expect further use | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
in the next few weeks as the work investigating this continues. | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
Yesterday the Panama headquarters of Mossack Fonseca was raided but ten | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
days since the initial week I believe the UK offices have not been | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
raided. This is despite concerns being raised by the firm's founder | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
of the lack of due diligence the UK Ops is performed and the clear legal | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
precedent for UK authorities to intervene. There may be more | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
revelations to come, set to publish individual reputations. I'll put it | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
mildly, the bright minister has done himself no favours of the last ten | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
days. A lesson for the future is when asked a straight question to | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
answer straightforwardly and straightaway. The bright Minister | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
could and should have come clean about his relationship to Blairmore | :21:47. | :21:47. | |
Holdings far earlier. Does he regret the support that he | :21:48. | :22:00. | |
gave to the IRA, who are still laundering money and avoiding taxes | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
in Northern Ireland, and yet in the past he supported their activities? | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
I have never given the IRA support for laundering money or any other | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
activity. Wherever laundering is, it is illegal and it should be tackled, | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
and I welcome his intervention. Having spent ten years as an aid | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
worker, I am acutely aware of the millions of pounds that are lost to | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
development in poor countries as a result of these tax havens. Does my | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
honourable friend agree that ahead of May's anti-corruption Summit in | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
London, the Prime Minister needs to do far more to reassure the House | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
that he will accelerate his efforts to persuade British Overseas | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
Territories to mirror the UK's welcome move and establish a | :22:49. | :22:56. | |
register of ownership? The issue of a public register is critical to any | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
measures of a future, because in that way people can be held to | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
account in the developing world where they are denying resources to | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
their country. I will come back to that one. It is absolutely crucial | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
that we do have this transparency across the Crown Dependencies and | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
Overseas Territories, because, without that, doesn't it just | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
further reinforce the message to our constituents that their rose one tax | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
rule for the rich and powerful, and another for everyone else? The key | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
issues in this coming period, and I think across the whole of the House | :23:35. | :23:36. | |
we have to re-establish credibility we have to re-establish credibility | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
is about taxation system, which has been so badly damaged by the | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
activities. He has called for greater transparency from the Crown | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
Dependencies. Can he therefore explain why this is the first time | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
he has made such a call and why he did not make such calls in the 13 | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
years of the last Labour government? Can I ask the honourable gentleman | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
if he looks back... Yes, I am, calm down, calm down. If he looks back on | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
my record over the last 18 years in Parliament, I was one of the first | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
MPs to set up tax justice meetings in this House that brought the tax | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
Justice network and did the research. I have commissioned a | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
review of HMRC's activities, including tax avoidance and tax | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
evasion. I understand his concerns, I worked on a cross-party basis on | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
this issue for a number of issues and have been critical of successive | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
governments not doing enough. On the issue of tax burners, does he agree | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
with me that what the Panama Papers have revealed is that there is a | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
channelling of money for the rope bridge, and the poor have to pay | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
their taxes? This comes on top budget that we have just had where | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
capital gains have been cut for the top 3% while taken from the | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
disabled. This shows that we are not all in it together. I think what | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
people found extremely disappointing in the Budget debate that we had was | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
at the same time as the honourable gentleman said, at the same time as | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
capital gains taxes being cut, that is being paid for by cuts in | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
benefits for people disabilities. It demonstrated most starkly that we | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
are not all in this together, maybe from this debate, maybe from these | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
revelations, we may be able to start the process and steps towards a fair | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
taxation system which runs our public services effectively. Thank | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
you to the Shadow Chancellor for giving way committee has been | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
generous with his time. Last night, the all-party group had an excellent | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
meeting with a Guardian journalist on the campaign which exposed this | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
gamble. In terms of the openness and transparency, that could be achieved | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
quite simply by a council from the UK Government, it is a matter of | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
will for this UK Government. My honourable friend the shadow leader | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
of the is made that point last week, and demonstrated example after | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
example of where that has taken place. The order has been used by | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
successive governments very effectively. Again, I am bewildered | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
why that has not been taken up by the Government at the moment. If I | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
can press on, can I press on a little bit? I am at the third page | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
and this is getting ridiculous. If I could just pass on a little bit I | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
can get back to the honourable gentleman. I have given away a fair | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
amount, as the Speaker knows I am generous but I do not want to be | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
speaking for too long. Can I just say this, even today we have not | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
seen the prime and as a's full tax return or that of the Chancellor. I | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
think it is important that actually that is established. The Prime | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
Minister established the principle that I advocated three months ago | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, the Leader of the | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
Opposition and the Shadow Chancellor should publish their tax returns, | :26:54. | :27:02. | |
that hasn't happened. What we are confronted with today is a far | :27:03. | :27:04. | |
bigger issue than any individual. At the centre of the allegations as a | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
single issue, the fundamental problem is not tax avoidance by this | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
individual or that country, these are the symptoms of the disease. The | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
fundamental issue, the corruption of democracy itself. At the centre of | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
our parliamentary system is the idea that those who levy taxes on people | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
are accountable to the people. If those making decisions on our | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
taxation system are believed to be avoiding paying their own taxes it | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
undermines the whole credibility of our system. The common understanding | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
is also that those who live here and benefit from public services will | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
make a proportionate contribution towards them. Well, I'd better give | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
way for this honourable friend verse otherwise he will be disappointed. I | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
am grateful to him. To hark back to the point, the council that he just | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
referred to, was he surprised to hear that his friend and leader, the | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
member for Islington North, once described the use of orders in | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
Council by the last Labour government is extremely undemocratic | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
and in fact medieval. Does he think that the Leader of the Opposition is | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
a Johnny come lately to this issue? It depends upon the issue that is | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
being addressed. And sometimes, harking back to the medieval period | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
may be the most effective way of dealing with these problems. If I | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
can press on, I have given way to the honourable gentleman and I will | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
come back to him. Let me just repeat that point, the common understanding | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
is that those who live here and benefit from public services will | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
make a proportionate contribution towards them. The level of taxation | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
may vary, and sometimes it is higher and sometimes lower, but because we | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
have a shared sense of fairness we expect those with the broadest | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
shoulders to carry the greatest burden in taxes. What we have seen | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
over the last 30 years is the growth of wealth inequality on such a scale | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
that it has undermined the basic principle of democracy. Figures from | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
Oxfam suggest that the richest 1% on more than the rest of the world | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
combined. Let me press on a little bit and I will come back, I promise | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
the honourable gentleman. Wards of assets and property and financial | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
wealth have been built up. On the best available measures we have, the | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
levels of income inequality in Britain today are climbing as high | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
as they were before the First World War. The share of income going to | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
the super risk has risen through the last decade is called the super | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
rich. We are returning to the levels of inequality that we had before | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
women had provoked and the development of universal education | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
and health care, the world before democracy brought this under control | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
and created a more Humane Society for the majority. The world of the | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
Rockefellers and barons over what we are returning to. Immense, almost | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
unimaginable wealth for a gilded elite but in security for growing | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
numbers. Much of that wealth is now held offshore in secretive, | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
unaccountable tax opens. The last estimate was $21 trillion, | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
equivalent one third of the global GDP, is estimated to be hidden | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
taxation systems. If taxed fairly, it would raise ?188 billion per year | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
in extra taxation. This is not about a few families looking, and I quote, | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
to minimise their tax bill, as the member for games but kind, it is | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
systematic. It is an offshore world operating parallel to the rest -- | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
the world the rest of us living. It has been instructed piece by piece | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
by multinational corporations and the super-rich. Are raided by shady | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
offshore operations like Mossack Fonseca, and we have to be honest | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
about this, also supposedly reputable accountancy firms here in | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
London playing their part. PwC have apparently aided tax avoidance on an | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
industrial scale to advise the businesses on avoiding tax in | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
African countries, Ernst Young act as tax advisers to Facebook, Apple | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
and Google. Last month, KPMG had one of its tax avoidance schemes | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
declared illegal by the High Court. Altogether, the big four accountancy | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
firms in this country hide at least ?2 billion annually from their tax | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
operations, but it isn't just them. Bank headquarters operating in | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
London have been proficient in directing their funds through | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
Mossack Fonseca's shell companies. HSBC and its affiliates created more | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
offshore companies through Mossack Fonseca than any other bank. Over | :31:47. | :31:54. | |
2300 were created in total. A subsidiary of RBS created over 500 | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
offshore companies through its subsidiary in Jersey. Supposedly | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
reputable companies are aiding and abetting the systematic abuse of our | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
tax system. And we should be clear about this. The City of London is | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
now being viewed by many as a tax haven. In the middle of a dense | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
network of havens created for the super-rich to avoid the taxes and | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
the rest of us much pay. I will. Does he accept that in 2010 the | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
richest 1% contributed 25% of all tax, and does he welcomed the fact | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
that the Chancellor revealed in the budget that that has now increased | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
to 28%? It is not just a matter of tax. It is a matter not just of | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
income tax either. Of course I do that, but let's be clear, in terms | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
of distribution or analysis that has been undertaken independently of the | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
Government, Conservative Party policy since 2010 has seen some of | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
the biggest losses for the poorest, not the wealthiest. By 2020, can I | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
does go to the budget group, they put together the tax gains and the | :33:03. | :33:10. | |
benefits cuts, the poorest 10% will lose 21% of their income annually as | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
a result of this Goverment's policy. That is five times more than the top | :33:15. | :33:21. | |
10%. Let me quote this, the IFS analysis clearly shows that this | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
year's Budget hit the poorest 80% harder than the richest. 80% of | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
those cuts fall on whom? Women. I give way. I thank him for giving | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
way, he is generous with his time. As well as appreciating the fact | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
that 1% of the highest income earners pay 28%, would he also | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
consider that this Government since 2010 has taken millions out of tax | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
altogether by increasing the tax allowance up to what is now ?11,500? | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
Let media with the tax threshold issue. The biggest, let me quote, -- | :33:56. | :34:03. | |
let media. The biggest gains come from highest earners, they benefit | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
from the tax threshold moves. Let me quote the IFS again and get this | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
clear. The IFS describes the shifting of the packs threshold as a | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
giveaway for the better off. -- tax threshold. If I can press on, I have | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
given way, I know that others want to speak. Let me be clear, this is a | :34:25. | :34:33. | |
world that the super-rich inhabit, they lived by different rules, it is | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
an alien world from the majority of the rest of us. Does he not agree | :34:38. | :34:44. | |
with me that his party's opposition to removal of the family home for | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
income tax threshold actually affects those on the lowest income | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
in London and the south-east, because it will mean that only the | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
wealthy can afford to stay in London when a family home is sold and they | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
have to claim Inheritance Tax? The honourable lady makes an important | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
point. We have supported the increase in tax thresholds to take | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
people out of tax altogether, but the benefits overall have accrued to | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
the highest earners, not the lowest, and we need a more sophisticated | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
system than that. With regards to Inheritance Tax, the cut that was | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
made this time round by the Government benefited the top 5% of | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
the population. There has to be a better way of ensuring people can | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
pass on the wealth to their children rather than benefiting the | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
super-rich. We have to look at that again, I am happy to meet with the | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
honourable lady and discuss this. I thank him for being generous. For | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
those low income families in London and the south-east where their | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
family home has increased beyond recognition who are now asset rich | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
at income poor, how the party opposite going to help them if they | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
don't take them out of Inheritance Tax? The importance for us now is | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
exactly as my honourable friend said, we we build more homes to how | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
those people. It gives access to homeownership to thousands more. Can | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
we put the thresholds to bed once and for all? The people who paid 25% | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
income tax will get a small rise. We, standing here, everyone of us, | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
get a 10% pay rise next year but we will get a much bigger tax rise than | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
ordinary men and women, and that is what we can't understand, because | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
the rich keep getting richer and they keep getting poorer. That is | :36:29. | :36:30. | |
what this debate is about, fairness. We must find a better way concerns | :36:31. | :36:40. | |
over taxation system and benefiting those at the lower end of the scale. | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
Although we are happy with the rise in tax threshold we need a way to | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
compensate that in a more equitable way and again I just seen this dash | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
it is not as seeing this, it is the IFS and many other independent | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
organisations saying this. I don't want to try your patience. Let me | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
say this, it is an alien world for the majority, a world of offshore | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
trusts and legal trickery. It will in which it is perfectly normal to | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
buy property in a London through a company registered in the British | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
Virgin Islands managed by lawyers and Panama with offices in Bermuda. | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
A world in which citizenship and attachment to a country is something | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
to pick choose an dependent on price. The scandal of the non and | :37:28. | :37:40. | |
continuous also -- the scandal of the non-doms continues. Any budget | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
there was an extraordinary Klausner wrote off non-doms an entire capital | :37:44. | :37:51. | |
gains bill, a giveaway to the wealthy. This is not the of's live | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
in. Most of us the other other taxes and contrary to the member from | :37:58. | :38:07. | |
Milton, people don't pay our taxes because we live an hour gone through | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
low achievers, as he described them, we do so because a decent society | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
depends on the contributions of all us. What I've taxes we cannot run | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
the essential public services. We don't have access to the kind of | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
specialist services Mossack Fonseca and other companies provide, we can | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
negotiate with HMI see about when and how it pay our taxes, but for | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
the global elites tax avoidance is as much a part of the world as the | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
yachts and the mansions. This is the world, a corrosive influence on our | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
democracy. The more the super-rich can escape the burden of taxation | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
the more it falls on the rest of us in society. It is morally wrong a | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
billionaire oligarch should be proportionally less in taxes than | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
his migrant cleaner. It is a disgrace a corporation like Google | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
should be no corporation tax for nearly a decade while small | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
businesses are chased for tiny amounts. It is an affront to the | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
basic principles of our democracy large corporations should be able to | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
negotiate Switzer deals with HMRC. It is also corrosion of democracy | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
when there is a revolving door between HMRC, charge of collecting | :39:28. | :39:37. | |
taxes,... It is very unseemly when the Shadow Chancellor is addressing | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
the house for there to be a kind of side exchange between a member of | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
the opposition front bench and the honourable gentleman for South | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
Suffolk. Very unseemly. You mustn't get into this sort of bad habit, his | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
father in law is a distinguished member and he would tell them how to | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
behave properly and I will do so as well. Always best to keep the | :39:59. | :40:09. | |
in-laws on-site, Mr Speaker. It is a disgrace that an immense global | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
corporation like Google pays no corporation tax for a decade while | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
small businesses are chased but Sony and notes and it is an affront to | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
the basic principles of democracy that large corporations to negotiate | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
sweet deals. It is a corrosion of democracy when there is a revolving | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
door existing between HMRC, charge of collecting taxes, and major | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
accountancy firms, whose business depends on minimising taxes. I just | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
say that HMRC's last director went to work for the light. We now find | :40:44. | :40:53. | |
the director to the -- the wretched of executor of each MRC is someone | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
who believes tax, I quote, is a form of legalised extortion. The | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
structures of Government are being bent out of the bag tax avoidance. | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
Decisions are what about the need to protect the interests of the super | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
rich and large corporations. Democracy becomes corroded. Can I | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
also say, in terms of party donations, the party opposite | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
receives more than half of its election campaign funding from hedge | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
funds. You and wondered if leadership made loud and repeated | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
noises about tax of organs get MVP 's and Brussels voted ?6, on | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
instruction from the Treasury, to block EU wide measures on tax | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
avoidance. The EU Commission was lobbied in 2030 to remove offshore | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
trusts from new site EU regulations on avoidance. Its record reveals | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
that the people no longer trust them on this. Not only have the impeded | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
efforts to clamp down on avoidance, the schemes directly implicate | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
senior figures in the party. Several Conservative Party donors, three | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
former Conservative MPs, six Lawrence -- sex members of the house | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
of Lords with connections to Mossack Fonseca. -- 6-mac members. | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
Independent assessments on tax assessments introduced since May | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
show the poorest 10% of forecasters see the income fall by 20% by 2020. | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
It is the poorest and least able to carry the burden who will suffer the | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
most under this Government. An economic system that allows tax | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
avoidance on this deal is one in which the inventor or entrepreneur | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
is second to the owner of wealth, worker comes second to the | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
plutocrats, taxpayer is second to the tax dodger. Inherited privilege | :42:55. | :43:02. | |
and wealth is rewarded,... I was not enamoured with all the previous | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
Labour Government's economic policies. Its measures on | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
corporation tax avoidance I forecast by the Financial Times that is ten | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
times as much revenue as the present Chancellor's schemes. The Panama | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
league must act as something for the size of action. The Government has | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
stepped up the rhetoric on tax evasion but much of it falls short | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
of what is the duct or repeat existing announcement. I remind the | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
ministers that in the OBR report that accompanied this year's budget | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
included a scheme for those operating in the Isle of Mann and | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
Joseph. It said that HMRC they're not have the resources to follow up | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
on the links of the scheme. Can I say again, with press releases and | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
more action. It is time to move on and closing down tax havens and | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
clearing mist of avoidance. We need an immediate and full public enquiry | :44:06. | :44:13. | |
into the Panama leaks. The Government's proposed task force | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
will report to the Government from partly funded by donors are featured | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
in the Panama Papers. To have any credibility any enquiry must be | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
fully independent. We must shine a light on and prised apart the | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
corrupt networks operate through tax havens. Part of that means creating | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
a proper register of the was my interest. Members should not be able | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
to hide behind spurious claims of privacy and we want HMRC proper that | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
resource to chase down tax of orders with a new specialist unit dedicated | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
to that task. Foreign firms bidding for Government contracts should be | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
required to name their owners. There should be full public country by | :44:57. | :45:03. | |
country reporting of earnings and order shipped by countries and | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
trusts. The measures announced by the EU this week do not go nearly | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
far enough, requiring only partial reporting by companies and the | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
turnover threshold is far too high. Labour MVPs in Europe will be | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
pushing to reduce their to a lower level so large corporations find it | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
more difficult to dodge paying their fair share of tax. Back should be | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
the beneficial ownership of trustee work with, which means creeping a | :45:34. | :45:42. | |
public register of trusts, not only companies, as the Government is | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
currently enforcing. The Prime Minister has a role to play as he | :45:48. | :45:55. | |
lobbied for the exclusion of trusts. The projection of a public register | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
of the trust, too often used to avoid paying tax and reduce | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
transparency in our tax system. Let's come back to Crown | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
Dependencies and Overseas Territories. We must ensure they | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
enforce a far stricter minimum standards of transparency for | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
company and trust ownership. The current programme for reform has | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
been laughed at by the tax havens. The Leader of the Opposition quoted | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
today that only this week after signing the new Deal and beneficial | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
ownership, the Cayman Islands's premiere was celebrating a victory | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
over the UK, saying this is what they wanted, this is what we have | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
been pushing for for three years. The truth is the Government is | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
playing into the hands of those who want to abuse the system. We need | :46:42. | :46:49. | |
serious action on enforcement, we need not central registers but full | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
public registers, accessible to all, including journalists and other | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
businesses, if we're to court the activities expose any Panama Papers. | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
This package of measures is the labour tax transparency and | :47:07. | :47:08. | |
enforcement programme. We believe it was a sound basis to take the first | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
necessary steps to invoice avoidance and opens up transparency. We want | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
to see immediate effect of action unless this busy test of leadership. | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
The leadership of the party opposite could take this opportunity to | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
correct the series of errors it made and join us today and taking | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
effective action and the four steps to series that dealing with | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
avoidance. People want to see the party opposite that the steps | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
otherwise they will rightfully stand accused of siding with the wrong | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
people, rightfully stand accused of being the party of the tax | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
avoidance. I recall not long ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
on television and I quote, give advice on pretty clever financial | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
products as he describes them. That would allow the wealthy to dodge | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
inheritance tax. Don't tempt me, Mr Speaker. Some Conservative backbench | :48:04. | :48:12. | |
MPs believe tax avoidance is a sign of success. The Prime Minister | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
himself as a direct beneficiary of the scheme set up an offshore tax | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
haven through his private ownership of playable holding shares. The | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
Panama leaks present a stark political choice. To be continued to | :48:25. | :48:32. | |
allow a system of corruption and avoidance or now take action | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
necessarily do is restore our tax system and correct the abuses of | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
democracy? That the choice ahead of us and urged the Government and all | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
members to join ayes not a new series programme of work to tackle | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
the abuse of our system. The Government can make is that by | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
supporting this motion today and I commend the demotion to the hosts. | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
The question is as on the order paper. I call the Financial | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
Secretary to the Treasury. It is a great pleasure for the second time | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
this week the Government can inform the host what we have done and how | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
much more we have done than the previous Government to tackle | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
evasion, avoidance and aggressive tax planning and to be a world | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
leader in tax transparency. Mr Speaker, and 2010 we had a situation | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
where you could not fully find out who owned a company in the UK, the | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
details of London property, if it was owned by a foreign company, and | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
not only were the rules governing multinational companies out of date, | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
allowing the tax base to be eroded, there was no attempt to bring these | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
rules up to date, nor was there any sign of these matters were going to | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
change. Loopholes, secrecy, concealment, those are the issues we | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
are sorting out and threw not only what we're doing in the UK but | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
through our firm and action overseas. I want to clarify the | :50:07. | :50:15. | |
sentence he used. Can he now confront we come of the proposals | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
put forward by him, the public will not have access to the register | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
beneficial owners of other companies trusts. We will not have access. Let | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
me tell him precisely what I just said. In 2010 we could not find out | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
who really owns a company in the United Kingdom. From June we will be | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
publishing a public register of beneficial ownership. What's more, | :50:41. | :50:48. | |
HMRC could not find out who owns a company based in an overseas | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
territory. As a consequence of the agreements we have reached this | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
week, HMRC will be able to do just that. That is evidence of the | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
progress made under this Government and was not the case under the | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
previous Government. I'll give way to the honourable gentleman. | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
We have had lots of honeyed words from the Government about how they | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
are going to deal with this. Isn't that belied by the fact that they | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
appointed somebody as the executive chair of HMRC who thinks that | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
taxation is legalised extortion? Doesn't that demonstrate the | :51:26. | :51:33. | |
attitude that is demonstrated in the organisation. It is unfortunate that | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
the honourable gentleman seeks to smear a public servant who has | :51:37. | :51:43. | |
served governments of both colours, let me make this point, let me make | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
this point. This is somebody who has served governments of all colours, | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
who I have to say I have worked with extensively over six years and who | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
is determined and has been determined to do everything he can | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
to ensure that our tax laws are properly enforced, and that we have | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
tax laws that deal with avoidance and evasion. And I would suggest to | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
anybody throwing around one line from an article written in 1999 that | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
they looked at the entire article, because the argument that he makes | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
in that article is to ensure that we properly address tax avoidance by | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
ensuring that we get the law right. And I do feel that it is unfortunate | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
when accusations are thrown around in this way, dedicated in partial | :52:34. | :52:42. | |
public servants. I will give way. I am extremely grateful to my | :52:43. | :52:44. | |
honourable friend and I would like to pay tribute to his work over | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
several years in dealing with some of these issues. Would he also like | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
to comment on the fact that we now face a situation in this country | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
where we have the smallest ever on record gap between the tax owed and | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
the tax paid, isn't that the real story about the efficiency of this | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
Government in dealing with a collection of tax and also dealing | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
with some of the difficulties that we have in the system? My honourable | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
friend is right. The reality is that the tax gap as a percentage of the | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
tax revenues has fallen very considerably over the course of the | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
last, over the last six years. And that is testament to the effort put | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
it not only by this Government but also by HMRC, and there are | :53:32. | :53:33. | |
considerable challenges with bringing the tax gap down. There are | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
a number of aspects of it, including tax evasion, tax avoidance, | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
inadvertent error on the part of tax payers, which does happen from time | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
to time, I'm sure all members of the House will recognise that. And we | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
are determined to do what we can to improve and strengthen our systems, | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
all of that, and I'm grateful for the opportunity today to make | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
progress on that. I will give way. With the Minister just emphasise the | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
point about the tax gap, one of the most relevant measures is not the | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
general tax gap, it is the tax gap specifically for corporations paying | :54:12. | :54:13. | |
Corporation Tax, and on that measure of the tax gap the tax gap was | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
rising when the Government, when the Coalition Government came to power | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
in 2010, and has fallen by almost 50% over the last X years. That is a | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
major achievement, specifically for corporations. My honourable friend | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
is right, but tax gap in the context of large companies and tax avoidance | :54:34. | :54:42. | |
as a whole has full lunch -- fallen strongly. Let me take this | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
opportunity to set out some of the steps. I will give way, but I stand | :54:47. | :54:53. | |
by the point that he has, not for the first time, sought to attack an | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
impartial, dedicated public servant who cannot answer back, and by | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
selectively quoting an article written in 1999, and I have set out | :55:03. | :55:10. | |
to the House the context of which that article was written where he is | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
very clear that this is somebody who believes that the law should | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
properly be forced and has a record over many years of doing precisely | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
that. He accused of this swearing this individual when I was quoting | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
word for word. It is only the jet eyes to the extent of the law -- | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
smearing. If you set the bar to load and fewer people will pay tax and be | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
able to avoid it. -- too low. My point is that this Government's | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
attitude towards tax avoidance is blacks, and their words of war | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
honeyed than their actions. -- is lax. This Government year income a | :55:48. | :55:55. | |
year out closes loopholes, this Government has led to the OECD work | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
on base erosion and profit shifting. This Government has given all powers | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
to HMRC, this Government has seen a significant fall in the tax gap, | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
particularly in the context of avoidance, this Government has a | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
proud record on dealing with tax avoidance and tax evasion and | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
dealing with all abuses of the tax system. I will give way. Would he | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
also consider that this is the Government who, by HMRC, has raised | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
?2 billion since 2010 from offshore tax evasion. Does this not | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
demonstrate that this Government ensures that tax should be paid and | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
is paid. Absolutely right. Madam Deputy Speaker, I should make some | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
progress, because this speech sets out what we have done and what we | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
are continuing to do. I realise that the point at which I say I should | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
make some progress, I look round House and everybody is standing up! | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I thank the Secretary for | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
giving way. He made a reference to the record of this Government. This | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
also includes the changes to the foreign companies rules which cost | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
the Exchequer and more importantly cost the Exchequer of developing | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
countries. The honourable gentleman and I have debated this issue on a | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
number of occasions. The state of it number of occasions. The state of it | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
when we came to office in 2010, it was outdated and it was driving | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
businesses out of this country. Since the reforms we have | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
undertaken, we have seen more businesses located in the UK, we | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
have seen businesses locating their headquarters, their European | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
headquarters in the UK, it has added to the attractive as a place to do | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
business. As a place for developing countries, I have made this point | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
before, the UK has been at the forefront of building the capacity | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
of developing countries will two tax authorities to ensure that they are | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
capable of collecting the tax that is due under their rules. I will | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
give way then I must make some progress. Of course I welcome what | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
the Government has done in tackling tax wouldn't sound evasion. When he | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
says more could be done on tax avoidance, does he accept that this | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
Government is playing catch up with looking up the comments by the | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
former Labour Foreign Secretary Lord Chancellor, who said there was | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
action which the Labour government could have done and taken on tax | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
avoidance, but yet it was not done and we are now catching up with that | :58:22. | :58:28. | |
deficit by the previous government. I think my honourable friend was | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
right to draw the attention of the House to those remarks. We have done | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
a great deal in terms of tax avoidance but there is always of | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
course more to be done, and I will set out a bit about how they are | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
doing that and working through the OECD and implement Inglot. The | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
honourable gentleman says he wants to help me, I will then I will some | :58:46. | :58:59. | |
progress. In this debate, can the Minister detail any schemes that | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
have been identified since 2012 which can be classed either as | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
morally repugnant or morally wrong? Both terms used by the Prime | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
Minister and Chancellor in 2012 to point out what these schemes could | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
be. Has any work being done on who they are, and going forward... | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
Actually I think the honourable gentleman is being helpful. Not that | :59:25. | :59:30. | |
I ever doubted that he was! The point I would make him is that where | :59:31. | :59:37. | |
there is artificial, contrived behaviour, where there are schemes | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
that are clearly contrary to the intention of Parliament, we need to | :59:41. | :59:46. | |
take strong action. And we also I think are entitled to be critical of | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
those involved in promoting those schemes. And actually, one of the | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
things that we have done is brought in a regime whereby we can name and | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
shame promoters of tax avoidance schemes that are clearly contrary to | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
the intention of Parliament. I'm on page three, we are ten minutes in, | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
but I will give way. If the members opposite want to be helpful perhaps | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
they can speak to the unions, because Unison in 2011 and 2012 paid | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
no Corporation Tax despite ?51.6 million worth of stocks and shares | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
and generating an income of over ?5 million. I try to make it a rule not | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
comment on the individual tax affairs of taxpayers. But for those | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
who are happy to wading on those debates, it is up to them to answer | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
those questions. Madam Deputy Speaker, HMRC is committed to | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
exposing and acting on financial wrongdoing, their specialist | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
offshore unit is currently investigating more than 1100 cases | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
of offshore invasion around the world, with more than 19 individuals | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
subject current criminal investigation. The motion before us | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
calls for greater resource in from HMRC. That is why in the budget 2015 | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
we confirmed an extra ?800 million to fund additional work to tackle | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
evasion and noncompliance by 2020-21. We have heard quite a lot | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
today about HMRC resources and headcount. And I do have to say, | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I do have to concede that in terms of compliance | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
and enforcement, there was a period of time where the numbers working | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
within compliance and enforcement fell. I have two except that that is | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
the case. That period was up to 2010. -- I have to accept. If we | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
look at the way the numbers were in 2010 compared to today, the | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
important and compliance numbers are higher than when the Prime Minister | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
and Chancellor and myself took our respective positions. So there has | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
been an increase. I accept that a lot of the HMRC work in terms of | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
processing and self-assessment forms for example, much more of that has | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
been automated, and the staff working in that area have reduced. | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
In terms of compliance and enforcement, those numbers have | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
actually increased over the last six years. I just want to make a little | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
bit more progress. Even before last week, HMRC had already received a | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
great deal of information of sore companies, including in Panama and | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
including Mossack Fonseca. This information comes from wide range of | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
sources and is currently the subject of intensive investigation. HMRC has | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
asked the international Consortium of investigative journalist, the BBC | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
and Guardian, share the data that they have received, it is clearly | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
important to examine the data closely, that is why we are | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
providing new funding of up to ten Liam pounds for a cross agency task | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
force -- ?10 million. The analyser Panama Papers and take action on any | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
This will include analysts and This will include analysts and | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
investigators from across HMRC, the National Crime Agency, the Serious | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
Fraud Office and Financial Conduct Authority. Between them, these | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
agencies will have sophisticated technology, experts and resources, | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
to tackle money laundering and tax evasion anywhere in the world. This | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
task force will report to Mike right honourable friend the Chancellor by | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
taking action, and we will update Parliament later this year. I stress | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
the point, the task force will have total operational independence, if | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
they find people to prosecute, they will prosecute them, if they find | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
information of illegality they will act on it. In addition, the | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
independent Financial Conduct Authority has written to financial | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
firms asking them to declare their links to Mossack Fonseca. If the FCA | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
were to find any evidence that firms had been breaking rules, it also has | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
strong powers to take punitive action. He mentioned a moment ago | :04:06. | :04:13. | |
last year's Budget, the ?800 million figure being identified for | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
noncompliance issues. But I understand from his answer to a | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
written question, ?266 million has been allocated to specifically | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
address tax fraud. How much of that will be spent on tax evasion? Well, | :04:27. | :04:37. | |
the reality is the vast majority of the additional money that we have | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
put into compliance, both the ?800 million that was announced last | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
year, the ?1 billion that was announced in the last Parliament, is | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
going to dealing with tax evasion. All of it is going into compliance, | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
which is, you know, the areas of tax evasion, and tax avoidance, in its | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
broadest points. I'm happy to let the honourable lady have details of | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
the precise numbers, and I will happily write to her on that | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
subject. This is money that is going into compliance, exactly to deal | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
with these areas. It is an area that we have taken very seriously, an | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
area that is going to raise substantial sums for us over the | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
course of this Parliament, and we are proud of the record of what we | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
have done here. Now, in terms of, HMRC resources, I will take that | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
intervention. I thank him for giving way. Can he first of all confirmed | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
that in terms of headcount, there are 14,000 less staff in HMRC now | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
than there were in 2010. Secondly, can he informed the House of whether | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
there are any HMRC staff at the moment you have a compulsory | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
redundancy notice? I make no secret of the fact that HMRC is a smaller | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
organisation than it was in 2010 in terms of headcount. The reason why | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
is that there are capabilities of finding efficiency savings in an | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
organisation that devotes a number of staff to processing pieces of | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
paper where we are moving towards a more digital world, where we can | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
make greater use of technology. In terms of the area which I think is | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
relevant today, and is the concern of the House, the concern is | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
insuring that HMRC have got the resources to deal with tax evasion | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
and also tax avoidance. And in that area, I don't think headcount is the | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
be all and end all of these matters, it is what you get out not what you | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
put in. As it happens, the numbers have gone up. Under this government | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
in terms of the number of people who are dealing with enforcement and | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
compliance, that is a point that sometimes seems to be missed from | :06:40. | :06:40. | |
this debate. In a globalised world international | :06:41. | :06:51. | |
action is vital to stop cross-border tax avoidance and evasion. The UK | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
Government can be proud of having done more than any other country to | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
stop these practices. In terms of avoidance we have already | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
implemented the recommendations for country by country reporting to | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
improve transparency between businesses and tax authorities and | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
advocated for public country by country reporting on a multilateral | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
basis. The commission's proposals for country by country reporting are | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
expecting the right direction towards a new international rules | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
for greater public transparency however we must consider the details | :07:27. | :07:28. | |
of the proposal including how the reporting is done and how the | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
information is broken now. In terms of transparency in the context of a | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
vision, which is a key point here, we will be the first major country | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
to publish a register of company beneficial ownership, free for | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
anyone to access allowing everyone to see who owns what company. My | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
right honourable friend the Prime Minister made it the variety to use | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
our G8 presidency to set a new global standard for tax | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
transparency. As a result 129 jurisdictions have accepted to | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
implementing the international standards for tax information on | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
request and 95 jurisdictions have committed to accepting the global | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
reporting standards on tax transparency. That is a huge | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
breakthrough. Six years ago no one believed we would get to that | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
position. I am delighted we have done so. This is a step towards | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
transparency. With the Financial Secretary, on the fact that to | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
emphasise that point, none of our major international economic | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
competitors have agreed so far to have a public register of beneficial | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
ownership, and in fact, the state of Delaware in which 90% of US public | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
companies are listed, have said they have no intention of implementing | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
this. We are leading the world and living our major competitors. | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
She is all right. He is absolutely right to raise that point and I will | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
turn to that subject in a moment in terms of the public register. It | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
makes considerable process to get central registers and that is | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
something we have pushed for and I am pleased overseas territories and | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
Crown dependencies have agreed to sign up to that. The Prime Minister | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
stated the registers that the overseas territories will provide | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
will be available to tax authorities here, but as this debate has | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
highlighted it is a global problem, so will will registers be shared | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
with other tax enforcement agencies globally, so they can ensure tax is | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
not being avoided from other countries? He raises an important | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
point and I think there is scope of going further on that point. What we | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
have agreed it is surely we have access to those central registers, | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
that is clearly very helpful, but I think there is more progress that | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
can be made in terms of that and that is something to turn to in the | :10:07. | :10:16. | |
future. I must say, in terms of the International standards, it is the | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
case Panama is one of the very few financial centres but has not yet | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
fully committed to the standards. We are clear it should do so and | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
continue to press for Panama to join the club of responsible nations. | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
There is more international work to be done, in particular on | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
money-laundering, which is why we are hosting an anti-corruption | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
Summit in me to encourage concessions on publishing | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
information and putting it into the public domain, as we are doing in | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
the UK. Once again, Britain is leading the world on transparency, | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
accountability and responsibility. I am conscious I have a few important | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
points I want to say. Can I just addressed the subject of the UK's | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories? Reform of the regimes | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
of the overseas territories and Crown dependencies has been a key | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
objective and reforms have been considerable. All Crown Dependencies | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
and Overseas Territories with financial centres are early adopters | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
of the common reporting standards, reporting annually from 2017. The | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories will also share | :11:31. | :11:32. | |
information with the UK from this year, one year earlier than the rest | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
of the world. All UK Crown Dependencies and Overseas | :11:39. | :11:39. | |
Territories with financial centres are committed to a balancing company | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
ownership. The Prime Minister announced last Monday our overseas | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
territories and Crown dependencies and agreed to provide Lukey | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
law-enforcement and tax agencies with full information on company | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
ownership. For the first time UK police and law enforcement agencies | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
will be able to see exactly who owns and controls every company | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
incorporated in those territories. This is a major step forward in | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
transparency, a result of the Government's sustained work in this | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
area. It is rightly expect these overseas territories and Crown | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
dependencies to meet international standards, and indeed they do. Yes, | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
we want them to move towards a public register but that is not yet | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
the international standard. If, as the Leader of the Opposition | :12:30. | :12:31. | |
suggest, every former colony that does not have the public register | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
should be recolonised, we would be begin? Is he proposing we invade | :12:37. | :12:45. | |
Delaware? LAUGHTER | :12:46. | :12:54. | |
The reality is, and this is the point right honourable friend was | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
right to raise, the UK is in favour of a public register, we are | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
implementing this in June, for the first time. | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
We want other countries to do so as well but it is the case at the very | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
few of our European union colleagues do it. It is not the case that the | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
USA does it, we want to ensure it becomes the new international | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
standard, but in terms of orders of Council, condemning overseas | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
territories for failing to do what most of our EU colleagues do, I | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
don't think would be particularly fair or, for that matter, effective. | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
Our approach has brought the overseas territories and Crown | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
dependencies a long way and I do to the approach advocated by the Labour | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
Party would fail to work. Alex are more progress. -- I'll make some | :13:49. | :13:56. | |
more progress. As well as leading international action we have ensured | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
domestically our region is balls off and transparent. We have invested | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
more than ?1.8 billion in HMRC since 2010 to tackle avoidance and | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
noncompliance. The extra funding we announced in the summer budget 2015 | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
will allow HMI seek to recover a cumulative ?7.2 billion in tax of | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
the next five years. -- allow HMRC. Also tripling the number of criminal | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
investigations about complex tax train it can handle. We closed our | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
existing loopholes and introducing major reforms in the UK tax system, | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
raising ?12 million. Increased penalties, new offences, all the | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
polls close, new measures, more money raised. It does not stop | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
there. In this parliament we have already announced 25 measures from | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
legislation to tackle avoidance, evasion and address of planning and | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
these measures are forecast to raise ?16 billion by 2020-20 one. This | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
week we also honoured with the bungalow and frustration before the | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
house to make it a crime when corporations failed to present their | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
representatives from criminally facilitating tax evasion. This goes | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
further than any other country has gone and holding corporations to | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
account for criminal wrongdoing and will apply to both UK and overseas | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
corporations and set a new standard for corporate responsibility and | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
accountability. I'm sure all sides of the house will be supportive of | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
any measures as they go through. What a contrast to the 13 years of | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
the last Labour Government. This week they wrap up the rhetoric but | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
it was not on our watch the private equity managers have lower rates of | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
tax band nor was that under our watch the food avoid stamp duty or | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
disguise their remuneration as loans that were never repaid. Just some of | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
the loopholes left open by Labour that we have been busy closing ever | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
since. I would make this point about the approach of the Labour Party in | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
the last week. Yes, taxes should be paid in accordance with the law and | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
intentions of Parliament and we should take action against those who | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
fail to do so. We on the site of the house hold that view. Too often in | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
the past week, the party opposite had appeared to be motivated by | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
something else. That's something else is hostility to the wealthy. | :16:30. | :16:38. | |
Not for dodging taxes, Madam Deputy Speaker, but just for being wealthy. | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
For being successful, for earning money and wanting to pass it their | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
children. For doing things that millions of people aspire to do. | :16:50. | :16:58. | |
Thanks to the actions of this Government, action we have taken | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
domestically and overseas, we're changing tax transparency and | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
putting an end to offshore tax evasion. This is strong and firm | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
action from a Government committed to ensuring every penny of tax that | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
is owed is paid. I urge the house to reject emotion" of us. Can I make a | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
number of small observations on what we have heard so far. And gently say | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
to the Minister, who I like, success is not merely measured in monetary | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
terms, there are many successful people who will forego stashing cash | :17:38. | :17:45. | |
in the attic or the bank, or indeed the offshore tax haven. The second | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
think on, can I say in terms of HMRC, we have no problem with | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
efficiency, organisations being fit for purpose, no qualms about real, | :17:56. | :18:04. | |
genuine ways being eroded. But with 17 out of 18 tax rises being closed | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
and only one being reopened and the argument that was somehow deliver | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
more for what is substantially less. I also say in terms of the Shadow | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
Chancellor, he spoke of wealth inequality rising to the level we | :18:19. | :18:29. | |
haven't seen since the... I would not put the Prime Minister into the | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
category of the super rich like the Rockefellers. One of the things we | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
do know is the Prime Minister has the open up about is he bought | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
shares, as he described it, any class fund as part of Blair Holdings | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
and sold them at some years later. Episode that, because he did nothing | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
at all illegal, it bright light onto a very murky corner of tax havens. | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
One thing that gets straight meat he the stock in 1997 and sold it in | :19:00. | :19:09. | |
2010. Those dates were familiar to me. It was the entire duration of | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
Blair and Brown and new Labour, and in terms of the underlying issue | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
which I note the Shadow Chancellor is genuinely concerned about, many | :19:19. | :19:27. | |
of the pointy minister made at the end, the Labour Party did precisely | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
nothing about this for 13 years and am glad this is now on the agenda | :19:31. | :19:38. | |
and on it any proper and cogent way. My friend back for Kirkcaldy and | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
Cowdenbeath made a number of points during his speech during the second | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
reading of the Finance Bill on Monday in this area. He said, you | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
cannot build economic success on the back of social injustice. He said, | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
quoting Adam Smith, no society can be flourishing and happy of which | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable. He argued | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
creating such division does not bring progress and went on to | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
describe how much of this division is characterised today with people | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
in certain quarters being able to park large sums of money and wealth | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
offshore and the vast majority of the rest being unable to do that. He | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
suggested, according to Jason from the London School of economics, tax | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
havens or 16 of the world's total private wealth. Some estimates put | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
that aside $32 trillion. CNN described at around 6% of global | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
total GDP. I think we can probably all agree because somewhere in the | :20:47. | :20:55. | |
sweaty trillion dollar mark. Just ?15 UK GDP offshore in tax havens. | :20:56. | :21:05. | |
-- the $20 trillion mark. That criminals can hide from the relevant | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
tax authorities and the revelations in the document any pat papers from | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
Mossack Fonseca up at the set of the iceberg. It means there are three | :21:16. | :21:23. | |
larger farms providing these services and panorama and hundreds | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
of smaller forms and it is not simply in Panama will stop Panama | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
does not even make it into the top ten tax havens. We are purpose and I | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
don't think it has changed yet, notwithstanding the measures the | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
Government announced, UK and overseas Territories collectively | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
are number one, outstripping even Switzerland by some margin. Concerns | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
of the overseas territories it is worth reminding ourselves that at | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
this angle address in the Cayman Islands there are 19,000 registered | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
businesses. I am certain some of those businesses will be legal, but | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
many will not be. Many will be companies was a beneficial owners | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
remain hidden from the tax authorities there, here or | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
elsewhere. It means income that should be the income taxation will | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
go untaxed to the detriment of public services here and elsewhere. | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
We have in essence an international system of finance which enables tax | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
avoidance on an industrial scale. A system which hides from scrutiny the | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
owners of vast wealth from the ordinary -- when the ordinary man | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
and woman in the street does not have that luxury. They pay their | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
fair share. They simply want others to do the same. What makes it most | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
unfair, and I think why people are so angry, is that when assets and | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
income are hidden and go untaxed, we all suffer as the resources we need | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
are reduced and squeezed. But it is also the case that much of the tax | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
stashed in tax havens is looted from developing countries. This is not | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
simply an issue for the West. It is a matter of fundamental importance | :23:21. | :23:22. | |
for those economies and countries who frankly our even more in need of | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
tax receipts, which are effectively stolen from them and parking tax | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
havens around the world. That is why part of the solution must involve a | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
global agreement to ensure tax authorities and others can follow | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
the money. The question from my honourable friend is absolutely | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
right. We are moving to have data shared between the Crown | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
Dependencies in overseas territories to law enforcement and the tax | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
authorities. We think they should be public. It should also be shared | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
elsewhere. I hope miscreants are identified by the revenue and the | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
police here. There will be a very swift phone call to the authorities | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
elsewhere so their authorities can also follow the money. | :24:12. | :24:23. | |
China has ?44 billion invested in tax havens in the Cayman Islands, | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
and 49 billion in the British urgent territory. Isn't it significant that | :24:29. | :24:35. | |
one of the reasons the government does not want to act against these | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
tax havens, is because they have ingratiated themselves with the | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
Chinese, who are busy destroying our steel industry Chumak --? I suspect | :24:44. | :24:53. | |
the Chinese authorities will be as interested in that $93 billion as | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
much as we are. I do suspect much of that is not there, how shall I put | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
this gently, officially. They have as big a problem with money being | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
fleeced from their system as we do and other countries do. One of the | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
other issues raised by my honourable friends was the question of where | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
the money actually is and how it is set to work for its beneficiaries. | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
As we know, the cash funds do not actually sit in the Cayman Islands | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
or the Bahamas. One of the biggest centres for the cash is London. | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
Hundreds, indeed thousands of very expensive properties in London | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
bought by people not known. We have called for a radical reform to | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
address tax avoidance, and criminality, and to deliver fairness | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
across the board so the very wealthy pay the tax they are due in | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
precisely the same way as those on more modest earnings. The starting | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
point for paying tax in this country is the revenue knowing who precisely | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
owns what assets and what income is derived from them. That does mean a | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
public register of beneficial ownership of companies. But not just | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
a public register of UK companies. A public register of beneficial | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
ownership from the Crown Dependencies and the overseas | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
territories as well. Precisely so nobody can hide assets through a | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
structure of a company registered in an overseas territory registered by | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
a Panamanian lawyer, while the money comes swiftly to a bank account in | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
London and is part in a multi-million pound mansion in | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
Mayfair through an anonymous shell company. It also means taking | :26:45. | :26:53. | |
serious action on trusts. Madine Deputy Speaker, the argument the | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
Prime Minister were used was -- was that he would not have got the | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
agreement he had if trusts had been included. He has argued, possibly | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
correctly, that these trusts were set up to allow investors to invest | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
in dollar denominated stock. But times have changed. A cursory look | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
at the stock exchange website this morning brings a frequently asked | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
questions page. Question is, can a company trade in currencies other | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
than sterling? The answer, yes. Your shares can be denominated and traded | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
in any freely available currency you use. The stock exchange... The old | :27:37. | :27:48. | |
arguments that these structures are required for non-Sterling trades are | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
investment are now simply wrong. As my honourable friend put it, when | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
the Prime Minister row may have been right some years ago, he is wrong | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
now. Public opinion has changed dramatically. That brings me to what | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
else the Prime Minister row actually said on Monday. He said he has | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
published all of the information on tax returns for the last six years, | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
he has provided details of money from his family, other sources of | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
income and his salary. He dealt specifically with the shares his | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
wife and he held in Blairmore Holdings, set up by his late father. | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
And that was precisely the right thing to do. But all of that in a | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
sense is irrelevant because it did not actually address the fundamental | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
issue of individuals holding assets to oversee shell companies and being | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
able to hide those and their income from the taxman. Also, what he said | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
about the Panama papers, and in describing the action is his | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
government were taking in dealing with tax evasion, tax avoidance and | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
international corruption, more broadly, was that they have put an | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
end to rich homeowners getting away without paying stamp duty because | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
their houses were antelope within companies. They have made 40 changes | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
to close loopholes. And in June of this year, the UK will become the | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
first country in the G20 to have a public register of beneficial | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
ownership so everyone can see who really owns and controls each | :29:30. | :29:39. | |
company. All of this is to be welcomed. What we are saying is, we | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
actually need to go further. It will not simply be enough for the police | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
and the tax authorities to see beneficial ownership of companies | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
registered in Crown dependencies. The citizens of these countries and | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
ours must be able to see who precisely owns and benefits from | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
what. And also, why we welcome the publication of beneficial ownership | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
of companies in the UK, I would ask the government to ensure sufficient | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
resources are dedicated to HMRC to forensically scrutinise the sources | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
of income many of them have, to ensure they are illegal and the tax | :30:19. | :30:26. | |
is due, and to pass on as quickly as possible details of any miscreants | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
to the authorities suspected of looting cash from other countries. | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker, I am delighted this subject is now under | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
real scrutiny. I am also delighted that we have gone wide. Oxfam give | :30:42. | :30:56. | |
encouragement. They say the UK is especially well placed to show | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
leadership here because it controls or directly influence is by far the | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
largest networks of tax havens in the world. It comes from the Crown | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
Dependencies, overseas territories and centred on the city of London. | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
It is estimated nearly a quarter of global financial services provided | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
to nonresidents within a jurisdiction take place. Taken | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
together, this entire UK entity would be at the top of the tax | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
Justice network 's financial secrecy index. That is not something we | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
should be proud of. They go on to talk about the opportunity this | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
government has. They say success in the area of tackling corruption, tax | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
evasion, could be transformative, not just in terms of our revenue, | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
but in the fight against global poverty and inequality. For the SNP | :31:51. | :31:59. | |
that is as important. I will say one thing to the Minister and the | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
government. The cat is out of the bag on this one. It is not just | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
Mossack Fonseca. This is the tip of the iceberg. The public will not | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
allow this matter to be quietly swept under the carpet again. | :32:13. | :32:20. | |
Kevin Foster. Thank you. It is a pleasure to follow the member for | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
Dundee East. While there are probably some things we disagree on, | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
there are a couple of things we agree on. It is very welcome we are | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
having this debate today. The second is the fear that the next tax haven | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
to be listed might be England, if the Scottish Labour Party got their | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
way after the elections this May and raised tax rates in Scotland for | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
those people compared to what they would be paying south of the border. | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
I certainly welcome this debate. As a member of the Public Accounts | :32:55. | :32:56. | |
Committee it is all was good to be of the Commons -- it is certainly | :32:57. | :33:07. | |
good. The opposition referred to tax early partly as a donation. I can | :33:08. | :33:18. | |
understand why they said that. A tax is actually a legal requirement to | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
pay something. It is not a donation or an act of charity. But as a | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
member of the Public Accounts Committee, who also sat on the | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
enquiry into perhaps one of the case -- cases that has helped to prompt | :33:34. | :33:40. | |
this debate, that of Google. We focused a lot of time mentioning | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
some of the offshore locations. In that instance we were getting | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
references to the double Irish and the Dutch sandwich, which had helped | :33:48. | :33:56. | |
produce their tax liability. Both jurisdictions are members of the EU. | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
When we are working across the world in terms of trying to deal with tax | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
evasion and avoidance, we must also make sure that other nation states | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
have the focus of attention they deserve. | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
There is quite a lot of chattering going on. I am finding it quite | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
difficult to hear Kevin Foster. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
were very clear that we felt HMRC should be trying to lead a debate | :34:27. | :34:34. | |
about openness. In that instance, it was about the revenues and the | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
discussion, the information that was there with HMRC. It is easy to | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
grandstand in a debate like this. But it is important we have they | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
considered debate, not a knee jerk reaction, to what information is | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
available public. There cannot be specific rules for individual | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
companies. Do we have a change in our general principle of not | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
discussing individual taxpayer data? That has some pitfalls as well as | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
potential benefit -- benefits. The Google issue was one we felt HMRC | :35:07. | :35:16. | |
could be leading a debate on. It was in our report whether that deal was | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
the best deal that could be done. It is worth noting it was based on | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
previous tax rules, not today's tax rules. Effectively we were having a | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
debate on things as they existed several years ago, in some instances | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
11 years back, and also on laws that have no in many cases moved on and | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
changed. What came out of that discussion is looking more widely at | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
HMRC's performance, which we regularly do as a committee. It is | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
encouraging to see some of the figures published around the | :35:55. | :36:02. | |
reduction in the tax gap. It has gone from 14% to 7%. That is | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
welcome. There is more we can do to drive down that extra 7% but it is | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
far better to be talking about 7% than 14%. As has been referred to in | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
exchange is already in this debate, the tax haven where a hedge fund | :36:19. | :36:25. | |
manager can pay a lower percentage rate than the person cleaning their | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
office, was the UK six years ago. Tackling that was, I have always | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
felt, was one of the best things ever done on the previous comment. | :36:37. | :36:46. | |
Someone could be paying a small percentage rate on a very | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
substantial income, a lower rate than the person earning the minimum | :36:50. | :36:50. | |
wage. Moving on to the Crown dependencies, | :36:51. | :37:04. | |
I think there is a number of things I welcome in terms of having the | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
ability for HMRC to get and share information. I agree that we should | :37:12. | :37:20. | |
be as diligent in handing over to tax authorities in developing | :37:21. | :37:28. | |
countries as we are to looking to enforce our own tax. I suspect were | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
always be a debate regarding oppressive regimes, but where the | :37:35. | :37:42. | |
line is about avoiding taxation, we should be prepared to cooperate, | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
providing there are assurances regarding standards of criminal | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
justice systems. In terms of looking at how as a government we engage | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
with those authorities, it is worth bearing in mind some of these | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
regulations are very complex areas. Perhaps there is an issue to be | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
debated that currently reappoint governors effectively acting as the | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
head of state for three years with the term extended bolt to four. | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
Perhaps that is a debate we had office Office colleagues about | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
whether there should be a longer period of appointment to allow the | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
government to hold a relationship with authorities in that alia. And | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
to be able to more engage and give difficult messages on behalf of the | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
UK overall than perhaps a three-year term allows. Governor does not go | :38:37. | :38:43. | |
round in a feathered hat getting saluted, it should be about being | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
part of a strong and lasting wand between the UK and those | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
territories. Looking for support in terms of defence and overseas | :38:57. | :38:58. | |
development, but also his relationship really can | :38:59. | :39:16. | |
discuss issues on which the sovereign but affects us as a whole | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
nation. This is a global problem. Panama is one of the few countries | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
not to have signed up to some of the international agreements. That is | :39:26. | :39:33. | |
one of the key issues here. It should be done as part of a proper | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
debate globally, rather than picking off individual jurisdictions. If we | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
do, people will find the next jurisdiction that is not honouring | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
transparency. For me, this needs to be a wider debate. There needs to be | :39:51. | :39:59. | |
clarity about which types of investments, many people use | :40:00. | :40:09. | |
legitimate and lawful unit trusts and pay their taxes, but at the same | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
time opening the envelope on those shell companies being used as a way | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
of hiding who owns something, so we can have that information and ensure | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
HMRC can get the tax due. In terms of contributing to this debate, I | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
was slightly disappointed in the opening things seem to focus on | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
party political attack than the dead on a measured debate around how we | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
ensure taxes legislated for by this Parliament. In reading the motion, I | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
thought it was strange that was not reference to the recent Public | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
Accounts Committee report regarding the Google taxation Bill. Likewise, | :40:57. | :41:17. | |
the tax transparency Bill. For me, it is welcome we have had a debate | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
today. It is safe to say all of us recognise that there's more work to | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
be done to try capture those revenues that escape all taxation | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
end all good restrictions. And the role we can play in the UK in | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
building up developing nations to crackdown on tax avoidance that | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
costs them even more than it does cost us. I welcome this debate. This | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
is ultimately about ensuring tax rate set here that we believe are | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
there are tax rates that are paid. That is where the nub of this debate | :41:52. | :41:59. | |
comes and future work should focus. Can I just say there are 11 members | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
still wishing to speak. We want to start the wind-up at 3:30pm. If | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
everybody takes eight minutes or less, you will all get in. As | :42:11. | :42:19. | |
co-founder and chair of the all-party group on anti-corruption, | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
I'm pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. These | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
issues are rightly high on the public agenda. Constituents have | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
contacted me to share concerns. They like many others have a strong sense | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
of the real and the perceived injustice in our system that means | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
the vast majority of people in this country play by the same rules and | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
have very little choice about the contribution they make to the public | :42:47. | :42:58. | |
purse. It is not about anger or envy. It is about those at the top | :42:59. | :43:09. | |
of the income skill who appeared to play by a different set of rules. | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
Government must take steps to re-level the playing field. One | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
assertion that has been made to me is that the solutions are easy. Will | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
I don't necessarily subscribe to that view, I think there are a few | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
relatively simple steps the government could take that will make | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
a significant difference. That would bring about much greater | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
transparency on the ownership of individuals and companies assets at | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
wealth, to enable a clear view about who the beneficiaries are and funds, | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
whether they are held here in the UK or in offshore trusts and accounts. | :43:50. | :44:02. | |
Tax evasion and other criminal activity such as fraud and | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
corruption should be looked at. Too often they go hand in hand. The | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
Prime Minister acknowledged in his statement on Monday on the Panama | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
papers that under current legislation it is difficult to | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
prosecute companies that assist with tax evasion. He is correct. The | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
challenges understated. I will briefly explain why. At present, | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
under UK law, in order to hold a company criminally liable, | :44:33. | :44:39. | |
prosecutors must identify a senior official as the controlling mind of | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
that company, with knowledge of the offence. In an increasingly | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
globalised world where multinational organisations have very complicated | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
structures and management arrangements, it sets an extremely | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
high arc for prosecutors to cross. It contrasts with the situation in | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
the US were a company can be held liable increment the law for the | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
actions of its employees undertaken in the course of their employment. | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
The government seem to acknowledge this inadequacy in the UK law and | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
included puzzles and 2015 manifesto to introduce corporate criminal | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
liability for economic offences. But by September 2015 these proposals | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
were quietly dropped. Only coming to light in a written parliamentary | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
answer. The grounds stated by the Mr were that there is little evidence | :45:34. | :45:41. | |
that economic crime is going unpunished. It is frankly ridiculous | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
assertion. I hope the Panama papers have finally put that notion to bed. | :45:46. | :46:02. | |
It is coolly unacceptable that people are effectively operating | :46:03. | :46:04. | |
with one hand tied behind their back. The inadequacy of our law has | :46:05. | :46:16. | |
been clear for some time. The identification principle is | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
difficult because inevitably the e-mail trail tends to dry up in | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
middle management and this is evidentially hard to prove. I put | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
this point to the premise on Monday. I was glad to hear him commit to | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
going away and looking at the proposals. | :46:35. | :46:44. | |
proposal is to extend the application of the section seven | :46:45. | :46:54. | |
offence which I will explain not only to tax evasion but to all | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
economic crime. This is the nub of the issue. As the Prime Minister | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
announced on Monday, and indeed he had announced previously but there | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
had been no action to follow it up as yet, the government does intend | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
to legislate to hold corporate criminally liable for failing to | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
prevent the facilitation of tax evasion, thereby accepting that the | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
current liability framework for corporate, which does apply to all | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
economic crimes, does not actually work. It proposes to do this by | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
creating an offence under the bribery act. The Labour government | :47:34. | :47:42. | |
introduced this in 2010. It puts the onus on companies to ensure proper | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
compliance procedures and holds them criminally liable if they do not. | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
The model already applies to the offence of bribery and it will now | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
apply to tax evasion under the government's proposals. Why stop at | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
activation? Why not extend it to failure to prevent other forms of | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
economic crime, such as fraud or money-laundering, as promised in the | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
2015 Conservative Party manifesto. It is something the director of the | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
Serious Fraud Office has suggested as a workable solution. In 2013, he | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
highlighted the benefits that such an approach would merely contribute | :48:20. | :48:34. | |
to the corporate culture which created the crash. I will give way. | :48:35. | :48:48. | |
Earlier, she mentioned a parallel with America. Here nobody was held | :48:49. | :49:00. | |
to account. In America they were. The banks in America have paid | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
significant finds as a result of their behaviour head of the crash. | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
It has been more difficult to ensure justice is done Sir. This is the | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
reason why this needs to be urgently addressed. It is a simple and | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
workable solution. The government already intends to legislate for | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
activation and it would be a simple case of extending the number of | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
offences that that extension applies to. I would strongly urge the | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
government to look closely at part two of schedule 17 of the crime and | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
ports act because it sets out a useful list of offences, covering | :49:35. | :49:45. | |
all manner of fraudulent trading. The government's proposed new | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
offence could equally apply to. The work is all done and the ducks lined | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
up, it just needs the government to implement this change. The | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
revelations in the Panama papers represent a pivotal moment. And one | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
which the government must not squander. The Panama papers have not | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
just highlighted issues of tax evasion and avoidance, but issues of | :50:11. | :50:20. | |
money-laundering and crying. And how these companies facilitate it. -- | :50:21. | :50:31. | |
crime. The UK Government could send out a serious message. I urge the | :50:32. | :50:38. | |
government to take this important step to arm our law enforcement | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
agencies and courts to properly hold companies to account. | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate and to follow the | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
honourable lady, who made an excellent speech. There is an elite | :50:54. | :51:01. | |
who seem to live by different rules. I agree with that. She summarised it | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
extremely well. What I wanted to talk about, was about those | :51:06. | :51:15. | |
underlying issues, why is there such public anger about this? Tax | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
avoidance and evasion have been going on for hundreds of years. | :51:20. | :51:28. | |
Smuggling was tax evasion. Why is there now a crescendo of public | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
anger about this issue? It cannot just be because we had the Panama | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
papers. I would argue it is due to underlying economics and those | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
features that emerge in our society after the great credit crunch. -- | :51:43. | :51:44. | |
fissures. The government keeps saying we are | :51:45. | :51:57. | |
all in this together. Quite clearly we are not. We have a | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
record low in the number of workless households at the moment. That is | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
the single biggest cause of poverty. This government has a strong record | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
in dealing with poverty. I will be coming on to that. | :52:12. | :52:18. | |
I'm happy to give way. I have to challenge on that point. There are | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
more people in work who are in poverty than ever before. I simply | :52:23. | :52:31. | |
do not agree with that. But I did want to start by focusing on the | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
action that has been taken. I do not think the anger is due to a lack of | :52:36. | :52:43. | |
action. It is lovely to have somebody popular a speech! So many | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
interventions! In terms of the action taken, as my honourable | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
friend said earlier, there has been a 50% fall in the corporation tax | :52:53. | :52:59. | |
gap. The honourable gentleman has been | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
very generous on interventions. Would he agree that one of the | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
things that really used to anger people was the fact that a cleaner | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
in an office could be paying less than a hedge fund manager working in | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
it, and that is one of the things that was tackled here in the UK? An | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
excellent point. It was a fundamental injustice and we did | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
deal with it. In the latest budget we have announced a series of | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
measures to tackle tax avoidance, measures about hybrid mismatch, | :53:30. | :53:37. | |
about abuse of VAT evasion am a the General Anti-Abuse Rule. The | :53:38. | :53:44. | |
government will be introducing a new penalty in relation to the General | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
Anti-Abuse Rule. We have also mentioned offshore of oil cetera. We | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
have a long list of measures. In terms of this border point about the | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
wider economics, I founded a small business in 2004. A mortgage broker | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
specialising in Shared Ownership. It was obvious to me in the build-up to | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
2008 what was coming down the track. What I feel the government was doing | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
was effectively trying to tackle inequality through debt. We had a | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
situation where you could have two potential home-buyers, one of whom | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
was wealthy, well-educated, and another with less good skills and a | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
less salary. They could both obtain similar levels of mortgage in those | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
days. Self certified mortgages, sub-prime etc. We know where this | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
lead. In terms of public debt, we had tax credits. The main measure to | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
deal with inequality was tax credits. A ?30 billion increase in | :54:47. | :54:56. | |
in work benefits. I will carry on. We paid for that on the National | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
overdraft. An increase of ?30 billion in benefits spending at a | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
time when we were doing pretty well as a country and when the world | :55:06. | :55:13. | |
economy was relatively strong. He seems to be saying that less | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
intelligent people should not be allowed mortgages. Is that what he | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
was saying? I think you should withdraw that. I find that genuinely | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
offensive. What I said was the rules were very lax. You could have some | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
self certification, which when somebody on a low salary could get a | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
large mortgage, just like somebody on a large salary. This led to a | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
huge crash in 2008. I believe we have one fundamental question. How | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
we go about, in the current economic context, trying to deliver a fairer | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
economy, which we all want, where more people share in the growth we | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
have been able to deliver. Yes, we do need strong measures against tax | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
avoidance. We do need the public to feel we are in this together, that | :56:03. | :56:09. | |
we are paying our fair share. Does he welcomed the fact that it is | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
under this government that the top 1% of earners is paying 28% of tax, | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
a far higher percentage than was the case under Labour? There are shouts | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
from opposite because this point was made earlier by me. It is worth | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
repeating. I am delighted my honourable friend made it. It is | :56:30. | :56:39. | |
such a strong point. This point about the richest 1% paying the | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
largest amount of tax has been bandied about today as though it is | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
a sign of virtue. It is a sign of the gross inequality in the country. | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
That is something that needs to be addressed. The rich are paying more | :56:52. | :56:59. | |
tax. How is that an unequal society? Let me talk about the measures we | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
should be pursuing. Yes, we should be cracking down on aggressive tax | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
avoidance, but the source of measures that we need if we are to | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
help people across society, I things like the national Living Wage, | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
introduced on the 1st of April by a Conservative government. There are | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
those who say the the National Living Wage is not generous and. | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
They have obviously not been reading the Guardian. The Guardian recently | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
used the big Mac index, as used by the Economist, to prove that the | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
minimum wage we will have with the National Minimum Wage is more | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
generous than in any other European country except Luxembourg. It is | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
only in Luxembourg where you can buy more burgers than you can with the | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
minimum wage in this country. The honourable gentleman asked what this | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
has to do with tax avoidance. The underlying issue is about fairness, | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
is about how you achieve an economy in which there is a widespread sense | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
that everyone has an opportunity and the chance to earn a decent wage. We | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
are delivering that inform or adverse circumstances than the | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
government before. -- in far more adverse circumstances. We had the | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
biggest deficit since the Second World War. 11.5% of GDP, which we | :58:19. | :58:25. | |
have cut by two thirds. It is difficult to go your way out of a | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
problem like that and deliver fairness. The honourable gentleman | :58:29. | :58:35. | |
keeps chuntering body is not adding a great deal to the debate. | :58:36. | :58:44. | |
My honourable friend was talking about fairness. He is talking about | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
some of the challenges we had with the deficit we inherited. In those | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
circumstances, not only have we been shifting income tax from the lowest | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
paid to the highest paid, but we have also been helping small | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
businesses. We will take many small businesses out of business rates | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
altogether whilst making multinationals pay more. My | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
honourable friend is absolutely right to mention small businesses. I | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
used to say to people I run a small business but if you measured is on | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
the mag of corporation tax we paid, we were bigger than Google. If you | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
run a small business, you have to comply. I agree with the honourable | :59:24. | :59:30. | |
lady in that there is an elite that lives by different rules. We have to | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
deal with that. We must not run away from the key point, which my | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
honourable friend, the financial Secretary, also concluded with. When | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
we talk about the transparency, the transparency that matters to the | :59:45. | :59:47. | |
public is our ideals and our beliefs. What do we really believe? | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
I fundamentally believe in a free-market, I believe in | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
capitalism, I believe in individuals using their creativity to earn their | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
way in the world. We cannot go back to paying our way through debt and | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
unsustainable public finances. In those circumstances, yes, we need to | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
maximise the tax we get. We also need to maximise the investment into | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
this country from these countries we have heard chastised by the Labour | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
front bench. They are massive employers in this country. We need | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
to it be expanding the exports. We need a positive free enterprise | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
agenda which adds a fair sense that companies are paying their fair | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
share, that individuals are, but ultimately does not denigrate the | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
free market but create sustainable growth to deliver prosperity for | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
all. Order, order. I have now to announce | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
the result of the deferred division on employment agencies etc. The ayes | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
worth 307, the noes War 241. The ayes have it. Everybody speaking at | :00:52. | :01:01. | |
just over ten minutes rather than eight minutes. It is about seven | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
minutes or less now if we want to get everybody in. | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
I want to start off by saying that what has been highlighted by the | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
publication of the so-called panama papers is that we do not have a fair | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
tax system. We are not all in it together, as my honourable friend, | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
the member for Newcastle North, mentioned, said very eloquently. | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
Those who have been exposed by this scandal have knowingly exploited tax | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
avoidance measures for their own personal financial gain. While not | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
technically illegal, aggressive tax avoidance has been against the | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
spirit and the intention of the law and the will of this House. What is | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
really shocking is that this has included heads of government, | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
including our own Prime Minister. And it poses fundamental questions | :02:01. | :02:08. | |
about politics and politicians. Once again it threatens the public | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
confidence and trust in politics and politicians. These are people who | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
are meant to be providing leadership to our very citizens. It calls into | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
question the attitudes and values, as well as the motives for seeking | :02:26. | :02:33. | |
public office. Does my honourable friend feel that | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
comments made, for instance, by the member for Buckland and Milton, who | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
said that if you are not wealthy you are a low achiever, as to the | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
distrust of the public towards politicians? I think it adds to the | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
dissatisfaction with politics and politicians as a whole. It was a | :02:55. | :03:04. | |
very insulting statement. As has already been said on both sides of | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
the House, it is more evidence of a powerful and indifferent elite for | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
whom the accumulation of wealth is paramount at the expense of their | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
fellow citizens. The evasion and avoidance of tax means there is less | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
money collected by the Exchequer for pensioners, disabled people and | :03:25. | :03:32. | |
public servants. Fundamentally, dodging paying a fair share of taxes | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
contributing to growing inequality in this country and across the | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
world. Tax havens are at the heart of this. Many of you will have seen | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
the Oxfam report last month, which says the UK heads the world's | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
biggest financial secrecy network, centred on the city of London. | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
Collectively it is estimated to account for nearly a quarter of | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
global financial services provided to nonresidents within a given | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
jurisdiction. The UK takes prime position for all jurisdictions | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
across the world in the tax Justice network's financial security index. | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
Hardly something we should be proud of. The National audit of it has | :04:16. | :04:24. | |
estimated the tax gap at 34 billion pounds per year. -- the national | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
audit Office. ?1 billion more than in 2009. This is the equivalent of a | :04:29. | :04:37. | |
third of the NHS budget. It accounts for tax fraud, which includes tax | :04:38. | :04:45. | |
evasion, which amounts to about half of the tax gap. If we consider the | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
cuts being proposed by the government in the budget last month | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
to disabled people around the personal independence statement, the | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
half after tax gap some would have paid for a all of the annual budget | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
for people on disability benefit. The HMRC compliance units tackle all | :05:07. | :05:16. | |
aspects of noncompliance. According to the NAO, they do not record how | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
much of the revenue they recover has been successfully recovered in | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
relation to tax evasion. But they do estimate that this is about 30%. The | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
HMRC have to balance between what they can get in quickly, low hanging | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
fruit, low risk, low visibility, lower vein -- game, and those that | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
are higher visibility, the more context come in all cases. This is | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
where political leadership comes in and has been seriously absent. I | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
will refer to this in a moment. In spite of a G8 commitment in 2013 | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
other common reporting standard at global level, the government has | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
been obfuscating around these measures. I welcome what has been | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
proposed by the government this week, but again, why now, six years | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
later? I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to me in | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
terms of how much of the ?266 million that has been specifically | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
allocated to address tax fraud. I also would be grateful as well as to | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
while we have got additional staff now acting on tax evasion, but why | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
was it that nearly 6000 HMRC staff were let go between 2013 and 2015. | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
And has the 10% reduction in the HMRC since 2008 affected the | :06:49. | :06:49. | |
collection of tax evaded monies? I welcome the additional measures | :06:50. | :07:01. | |
taken, but it is clear that in terms of my mailbox and I'm sure other | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
members of the same, of the absolute outrage. It is palpable in terms of | :07:07. | :07:14. | |
public anger around this. The Member for Blaydon summed it up perfectly | :07:15. | :07:24. | |
sane this abuse from a tiny minority is shocking. I quote from the | :07:25. | :07:32. | |
Institute for Fiscal Studies. We have had aggressive budget over the | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
last six years, which have shown that people on low and middle | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
incomes are proportionally worse off regarding tax and social security | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
measures. Projections of the next five years are of increasing | :07:48. | :07:59. | |
poverty. It is in this context that this is so shocking. The top 1% in | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
the last 15 years have increased wealth by 79%. ?3.7 million per | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
person. Some in the bottom 10% saw a rise of just 45%. The Prime Minister | :08:12. | :08:28. | |
admitted benefiting in an offshore trust. The Prime Minister opposed | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
the beneficiaries of offshore trusts being named under EU money wondering | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
rules. Vertical leadership has been absent and contrary to what can be | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
deemed as being fair. I'm conscious of the time. The proposals we have | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
made will make a real difference. I hope members look at these. Thank | :08:56. | :09:04. | |
you. I wasn't sure at the start of the debate because I had no | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
intention of speaking. I listen to the Shadow Chancellor's contribution | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
and found myself understanding his frustrations and the points he was | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
making. The problem is his solution appears to be some sort of socialist | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
utopia. I personally don't see any example in history of that working. | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
But it forces me to consider what could be a viable solution to these | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
states of affairs. Understandably, as many colleagues have already ably | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
illustrated in their speeches, the general public are angry. The | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
frustrated. There is a palpable sense for breakdown in trust, not | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
just for us in this chamber, but also in systems of government. The | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
tax system, the social work system, the latest dreadful case in Burton. | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
Across-the-board, public are deeply cynical. This is not the latest tax | :10:08. | :10:15. | |
scandal. We have had Google and many others. I can understand why the | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
average man and woman in the street is thinking, if it is good for me, | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
why is it not good for them? The response should not be hypocrisy. It | :10:25. | :10:32. | |
certainly shouldn't be envy. It should be, what can we practically | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
do in this globalised economy we all inhabit? I will readily admit there | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
are feelings in the current capitalist model we have. I will | :10:43. | :10:59. | |
give way. He mentioned earlier on public anger. I think the public are | :11:00. | :11:14. | |
weary of what is going on after six years. The recession and the | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
measures to deal with the recession are too harsh and have gone on for | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
too long. That is why the public feel they are bearing the biggest | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
part of the Burton. That is a political and philosophical point. | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
You don't believe that reducing the size of the state is in the | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
interests of the majority. I do. That is where we were diverted. I | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
think you are right. There is this sense that the middle are carrying | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
the burden and the very rich are not. All of these things we have | :11:49. | :11:58. | |
been talking about, I wish I had the money to invest in trust or | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
elsewhere, but I believe it is legal. If it is legal I believe it | :12:03. | :12:14. | |
is legitimate. The reality is the system is where we need to look | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
first. The tax scandal I referred to earlier regarding corporation tax of | :12:20. | :12:29. | |
Google and the like, my response is that corporation tax is out of date | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
in a globalised economy. Let scrap it and get rid of it. Then we can | :12:35. | :12:43. | |
move it to a form of taxation not so easily avoidable. Employee taxation, | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
a property tax or a sales tax, whatever you choose, the idea that | :12:51. | :12:58. | |
there should be a corporation tax in this world I think is nonsense. I | :12:59. | :13:09. | |
think we should scrap stamp duty. Find another way of levying it. | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
Maybe you should be taxed for the ownership of an ongoing basis or as | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
council tax. Clearly these taxes are not fit for purpose. The art easily | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
avoidable. Finally, the other challenge we have is regarding | :13:25. | :13:34. | |
equity. A lot has been said about the inheritance tax arrangements of | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
the Prime Minister. I totally expected. Anyone with any wealth | :13:40. | :13:53. | |
would mitigate against that from happening. How do we facilitate the | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
transfer of the wealth built up from those poor after the war? At the | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
moment, we don't really have a system that is working. We need one | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
that works. Regarding transparency and the need for simplification, I | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
am quite attracted to the Scandinavian and Norwegian model of | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
publishing tax and wealth online. I personally would support that. I | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
have nothing to hide as far as I am aware. When I mention this to | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
conservative colleagues, the always worry about privacy and the like. If | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
that is the case, I don't think the Prime Minister should have published | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
his tax returns and nor should anyone else. It is either all or | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
nothing. Each and every one of us, we each have a sheer in our | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
democracy. We each have a share in Arab government functioning. For | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
that she to be valued, we must all trust that it is legitimate and it | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
is they are. That everyone is playing by the rules. I personally | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
am drawn to the Norwegian model with the necessary clarifications | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
regarding legitimate application, but I don't see any reason why we | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
shouldn't do that. I shall give way. Which Norwegian model? I am of | :15:18. | :15:31. | |
course talking about the tax system. That have been some concerns | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
regarding extortion and potential for kidnapping the very wealthy, | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
however the legitimate application, I personally don't see a problem | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
with it. Everyone will be interested for the first couple of years, but | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
then I think it will settle down. In closing, the reason I have | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
contributed today and the reason I feel strongly about this is if we | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
don't have trust, not just in are, but trust in this establishment and | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
trust in government, you cannot actually achieve very much. If you | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
look at the challenges this country faces regarding long-term | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
sustainability of health and wealth, particularly pensions, there will | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
have to be difficult decisions. For those decisions to be in the medley, | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
we have to be trusted. Everything we do here should be about that. That | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
is why I think we should scrap taxes which are out of date and have long | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
been so is a huge priority. I'm grateful for this interesting | :16:39. | :16:48. | |
speech. I want to make an intervention. Regarding tax | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
transparency, does he feel that tax transparency will automatically lead | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
to a greater feel of trust amongst the electorate? I feel that | :16:57. | :17:06. | |
transparency may not lead to greater trust. Initially, I would agree that | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
it won't. If you look at Norway, the richest man in Norway, he was | :17:13. | :17:20. | |
publishing his wealth and income. Here is very popular because it | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
turns out he is an extensive philanthropist. People don't have a | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
problem with people being successful. What there is a | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
suspicion of is that there is something underhand. As the Prime | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
Minister says, transparency is the best disinfectant. I'm conscious of | :17:38. | :17:46. | |
the time. Trust matters. Without trust, you can't actually implement | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
what is necessary. Anything the government can do to encourage the | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
public to trust in the system and trust in this institution, it gets | :17:55. | :18:07. | |
my support. This issue is all about trust. The public have reacted so | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
fiercely against recent events because there is a collapse of trust | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
in as. The expenses scandal, this screaming nightmare we went through. | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
Trust from the public went to rock bottom. Now it is subterranean. It | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
is worse since then. There is an examination going on of our | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
standards in this House. I would urge everyone to contribute. | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
Democracy itself, the political system, is under threat. Quite | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
rightly the country is angry when they see the difference, the | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
unfairness in the system. We had the most insulting speech the other day | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
in this House that is going too deep in that sense of alienation between | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
that side and the other. Because the person who made that speech, I | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
recall an incident how he revealed to the newspapers how he was making | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
some of his money. Teapot the Council house of an elderly | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
gentleman in London who I think was a neighbour on the basis that can | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
size was going to appreciate greatly in value. The neighbour was not | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
going to live very long. The agreement the honourable member made | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
was that he would give the man the money to buy the House, the tenant | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
would buy it, give him the discount for being there for years, then the | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
House would be inherited by the honourable member. This is Tory | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
morale at a. This is morally repugnant. This is not the right to | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
buy a. It is the right to greet. And that is the man who lectured as the | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
other day. I'm trying to castigate those who he described | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
contemptuously as low achievers. The difficulty we have is the gulf | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
between what the government is saying and what the government is | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
doing. In March 2010, the Prime Minister made an impassioned speech | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
about how he was going to clean up lobbying. He was going to come in | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
and sort it out. Where are we today? Six years later, the lobbying act | :20:23. | :20:29. | |
has gone through, life for trade unions and charities is more | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
troublesome than it was before, but the big corporate lobbyists don't | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
have to declare whose clients are. Has been no reform that is | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
worthwhile. He has worried the minnows in the shallows, but the | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
great fat salmon are still swimming by unhindered. Have done the same | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
with this question where there is no sincerity in their determination to | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
tackle the tax savings. I give the example which has a fascinating | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
story about a gentleman who sees himself as the spokesman for the | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
Cayman Islands. He mocked the Prime Minister and said he had no | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
intention of carrying out his threats to deal with the tax havens. | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
It is a political gesture. That is has worked. On the political | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
gesture. We have heard the First Minister for the Cayman Islands is | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
putting two fingers up to the Prime Minister. They're not going to take | :21:34. | :21:41. | |
any notice. Let's look at the remarkable history of Lord bring | :21:42. | :21:43. | |
Castro. It is a remarkable story which shows the history of this | :21:44. | :21:53. | |
House. In 2012I made a complaint about his behaviour. It was taken to | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
a committee in the House to examine. What the complaint was about was I | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
was suggesting he was in breach of the parliamentary code of conduct. | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
Lobbying the Chancellor because of taxes affecting the Cayman Islands | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
and he facilitated role-playing -- all paid expenses trip for members | :22:17. | :22:24. | |
of this House to the Cayman Islands. The Lords Standards Committee held | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
an investigation into this and it was a remarkable document that they | :22:29. | :22:29. | |
produced. The Lord explained that he was | :22:30. | :22:41. | |
taking thousands of pounds per month in payment from the Cayman Islands | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
but he was not lobbying Parliament or government, he was lobbying | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
members. Or the other way round. There was a spurious excuse he gave. | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
Quite remarkably, the decision taken in 2012, that he had not been in | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
breach of any rules of the House. Two years later the contract that he | :23:03. | :23:10. | |
signed was leaked. It appeared in it that what he said was that he would | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
promote the Cayman Islands in the UK and Europe by liaising with and | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
making representations with UK ministers, foreign and Commonwealth | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
officers and members of the House of Lords. He put up a spirited defence. | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
He said he may have signed the contract but he had forgotten what | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
he had agreed to. He had no intention of doing what it said in | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
the contract. This is the most egregious breach of the code of | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
conduct in this House. Order. The honourable member knows | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
that he is not to criticise members of the other House directly or | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
personally. He has been reporting -- Cording from reports until now but | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
if he could desist from directly criticising other members of the | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
House, I would be grateful. I have dealt with that matter now. What we | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
must say to the the Government is that if we fail -- they fail to act | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
against their own members, who are not trying to stop the abuses of tax | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
havens, but are actually lubricating them, how can we take them | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
seriously? I think we have two say -- to say that this has happened | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
because it might expose the corruption that is so endemic, and | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
huge sums that are available, that are going around and disappearing | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
into tax havens. Light has been shone on this. I believe there is a | :24:45. | :24:55. | |
political agenda. We do not what it is. It may be a sinister one. I do | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
repeat the point I made earlier that one of the curious things here is | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
what is happening with other nations. China has 44 billion in the | :25:05. | :25:13. | |
Cayman Islands. And in the Virgin Islands they have got 49 billion. | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
These are huge sums of money. This is only part of the programme that | :25:19. | :25:27. | |
we have, with possible revelations still to come. This pivotal scandal, | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
revelation, will spread for decades, I believe. I am curious with the | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
government's reluctance to act against China in many other ways. We | :25:39. | :25:46. | |
have done a dreadful deal, financially disastrous deal, that | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
might give us the most expensive electricity in the world, but a deal | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
which is now collapsing at Hinkley Point. The government seems to want | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
's to ingratiate themselves with the Chinese government and because of | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
that they are going soft on them in many ways. They are not taking sharp | :26:03. | :26:14. | |
action against them against the undercutting of the steel industry. | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
We have a strange relation with the Cayman Islands and we do provide | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
them with great advantages, providing their defence for them. | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
But this permissiveness from the government must stop and we look for | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
the anti-corruption conference for the government to take the tough | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
line they have promised to take. They have not done it before. | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
Let's see them do it. I am sorry to have to say that everybody has gone | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
the way over my informal speech limit. I will have two in four -- | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
impose a formal speech limit of six minutes and I hope people will not | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
take too many interventions. I welcome the opportunity to talk in | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
this debate. While I welcome the intervention that has been taken to | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
tackle tax avoidance, I do feel the events in the past few days and | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
particularly this afternoon is more about the politics of envy. We now | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
see that the top 1% of earners are actually paying 28% of income tax. | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
Those figures are likely to grow. Just with the figures released in | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
the past couple of days, from the Chancellor, from the Prime Minister, | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
we see evidence that those who earn more, pay more, with the Prime | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
Minister paneer lea ?76,000 vehicle tax, which is double the amount I | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
learned as a nurse a few months ago. If you earn more, you do indeed pay | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
more. I take the comments of the member for Newport West in saying | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
there is a difference between what is said in this House and what is | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
done. Members opposite talk about reducing inequality in taxation but | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
then oppose measures which have seen 3 million people, the lowest paid | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
people in this country, taken out of tax altogether in the last few | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
weeks. Members opposite voted against measures not just in the | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
budget just gone, but in the budget last year, which froze fuel duty, | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
VAT, Insurance. Again, helping the lowest paid people in this country. | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
And this from a party who introduced the 10p tax rate, which actually hit | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
the lowest paid in this country. We on this side will take no lectures | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
on tax equality. In the short time that I have, I would just want to | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
touch on the subject of inheritance tax, which members opposite seemed | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
to lead with politics of March. And I assume that inheritance tax is | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
just there to tackle those who have a high income and a lot of assets. | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
Actually, as a member of Parliament for a constituency in the | :28:58. | :28:59. | |
south-east, I am seeing more and more low-income families who, | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
through no fault of their own, have seen their family homes increase in | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
price, and now falling to inheritance tax. They are having to | :29:09. | :29:16. | |
move out of their family home when the inheritance tax is due. They are | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
acid rich but income poor. People like myself as a nurse, teachers, | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
trainers, who cannot afford to pay inheritance tax, they are having to | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
leave their local areas. That a particular issue in London and the | :29:31. | :29:38. | |
south-east. It is very misleading to suggest only people on high incomes | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
pay inheritance tax. A couple of other points I want to bring up in | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
the few minutes we have is that this feeling that success is just | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
measured in wealth is absolutely wrong. I think the honourable member | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
for South staffer said this. Actually, we do not just measure | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
success in terms of wealth, but neither should we penalise those who | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
have done well. It will be a sorry day of this country becomes a place | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
where if you have done well, you are contributing to your local economy, | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
you are employing people, that you should be penalised, and not just | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
penalised but be frowned upon. It is the party opposite that is trying to | :30:18. | :30:26. | |
help people. We are the party of low taxation whether you are a rich or | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
poor. I see members laughing. I welcome the measures this government | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
has taken. I welcome the crackdown this government has taken on illegal | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
tax avoiders and I welcome the measures they have introduced to | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
take... I hope members opposite will desist from this politics of envy. | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
And deal with the problem of tax avoidance. I agree completely, it | :30:52. | :31:05. | |
was utterly wrong that a cleaner was paying more tax than the hedge fund | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
members. Thank God that cleaner was getting the national minimum Wage, | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
which was registered by the party opposite. -- resisted. The Liberal | :31:15. | :31:26. | |
Democrats. And also, I welcome the fact that low paid the blurb and | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
taken off the threshold -- tax threshold. 2.5% of the workforce | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
would not have been taxed no matter what the level because they are paid | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
so abysmal. Public sector workers have seen the tax threshold rise and | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
I've seen their pay frozen or cut for the last eight days. You have to | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
look at the big picture. The Prime Minister was right when he came here | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
on Monday. Nobody should tread juices that. It was wrong. The | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
attack on his mother was not right either. It is normal and right that | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
parents want to help their kids. And in principle, if you're dad or your | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
mother has expertise in any field, you would expect them to use that | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
knowledge. That applies to stop brokers, stockmen, bakers and | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
bankers. But the real problem this has exposed is the range of | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
opportunities that are only opened to the witch -- Ridge, wealthy and | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
powerful in this nation, and this is what proves that we are simply not | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
all in this together. Whichever way this is dressed up, what is clear is | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
that those in the know have not just got the opportunity and good fortune | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
to make money, it is also claimed when they have got that money there | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
are many avenues open to them to keep their hands on that money. It | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
is one of the reasons why eyebrows are raised in the country and in | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
this House when members opposite push through cuts to income tax from | :33:02. | :33:09. | |
50% to 45%. And have pushed through huge rises at the level in which | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
inheritance tax cuts in because they personally were going to gain from | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
that. If anybody else was doing it, you would be saying it was criminal. | :33:19. | :33:26. | |
When the Prime Minister, who earns ?150,000 per year in a job which is | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
really hard, he totted up with ?50,000 per year by renting out his | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
house. He also get a -- gets another ?40,000 per year from his savings | :33:39. | :33:48. | |
and his investments. Then he says to the poor people of this country, I | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
am sorry, mate, you have to cough up the bedroom tax. People on benefits | :33:52. | :34:01. | |
Irving told they do not need more money. Therefore, they have to give | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
back 30 quid a week. Public servants in this country are told time and | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
time again for the eighth year running, they must accept a real cut | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
in their living standards. I thank my honourable friend | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
forgiving way. I had a conversation with one of the members opposite and | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
they suggested to me that members here should declare their own earned | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
earnings. Does that no -- does my honourable friend know what that | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
means? I have not got a clue. I'm sure the ministers may be able to | :34:41. | :34:50. | |
answer. We also have the Chancellor, getting rental income from his house | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
because he lives in Downing Street. And dividend payments of ?44,000 per | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
year. What does he say to nurses, care workers, prison officers, | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
police officers and tax collectors? You must work harder, you must work | :35:07. | :35:14. | |
longer, you must accept the fact that your pension is going to change | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
and you must except the fact you are going to have to work longer before | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
you get it. How can we expect steelworkers in this country, facing | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
the possibility of a life on the dole, how can we expect them... We | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
understand what you are going through. | :35:32. | :35:42. | |
Was... People are fed up, ordinary people in this country are fed up | :35:43. | :35:49. | |
carrying the can for the mistakes of the bitch in this country. Mistakes | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
which led us into the economic crisis. -- the rich. Men and women | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
will never get the chance to save anything in the first place let | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
alone discredit away in the Caribbean or the Virgin Islands or | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
the Channel Islands, where there are no questions asked as long as you | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
know the drill. In two weeks the trades union Bill will return to | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
this House. They will face even more restrictions, the trade unions, | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
under the sad reality. The honourable lady from Lewis mentioned | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
earlier about trade unions not paying corporation tax. They are in | :36:27. | :36:35. | |
fully audited accounts that have been signed off. Why don't we | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
subject financial markets and regulators and dealers to the same | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
kind of regulations this government intends to impose upon trade unions, | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
whose only job is to look after the interests of ordinary men and women | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
in this country? Why about the same effort into chasing tax dodgers as | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
do into handing so-called benefit cheats? A process that sees innocent | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
people traduced. Innocent people's families rubbished. And at the end | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
of it, they made a mistake. What happened in the meantime? Why do you | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
think people in this country are angry? | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
This is about the politics of fairness. This week we have seen the | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
farce of we are all in this together. This is I get out for the | :37:31. | :37:40. | |
party opposite to say we have heard the anger and frustration, let's | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
work together and use this. Instead the shutting the door and want to | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
carry on the dodgy deals. This is yet again one law for the rich and | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
one more for the power. The people of this country will not stand for | :37:58. | :38:09. | |
it. The most important thing to come out of the Panama papers was the | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
allegations of criminality here and abroad. I hope this will lead to | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
prosecutions and further crackdowns on corruption including places like | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
China are added not like to be one of those individuals named in the | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
Panama papers. Like the Member for Bracknell, I believe this comes to a | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
question of trust. But the antidote to trust or mistrust is not | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
moralising, it is not for my outrage, it is credible action that | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
makes a difference and which the public can believe in. That is what | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
this government has been doing. Just because some members of this House | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
or the media have not followed this issue, just because the Member for | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
Islington North didn't say anything on this matter during 13 years of | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
the last Labour government, just because he sat on the overseas | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
territories will committee and didn't raise any issue of tax of age | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
and on that bill committee, just because he referred to the Labour | :39:18. | :39:26. | |
Government taking control in the Cayman Islands as medieval and | :39:27. | :39:35. | |
undemocratic, does not mean the government has done the same. Let me | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
say a few words about the key points the government has. Many of which | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
have already been mentioned. Raising the question at the G8 Summit and | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
creating the world's first in official register of ownership that | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
is public is an major historic development. Many campaigned against | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
it for illegitimate reasons. This is a massive step forward in the | :40:01. | :40:11. | |
campaign against tax avoidance and evasion. We are the first to do it | :40:12. | :40:19. | |
and it is under this government. Other major economies around the | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
world like the United States have not done this. Next month, chief | :40:24. | :40:34. | |
justice real shrine is coming to Parliament. Of members of this House | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
care about this issue, come to that event and question him on why | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
Delaware, the state in which 90% of the major corporations of the United | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
States have yet to follow the lead of this Prime Minister, have not | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
done that. The general anti-avoidance law was an major and | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
controversial measure taken by the last Coalition Government and | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
opposed by the Labour Party. The Labour Party spokesman of the time | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
said it was inadvisable to take this action until after the conclusion of | :41:08. | :41:23. | |
the bets process. Another initiative was the transparency initiative | :41:24. | :41:26. | |
brought in by Labour but one that they did not sign the UK up to. This | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
is important for raising tax revenue around the world. This is something | :41:33. | :41:44. | |
that many of us campaigned for and the business select Committee said | :41:45. | :41:54. | |
it was a mistake. The point he makes is that practical, credible policies | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
either way to tackle this. We have seen results, contrary to some of | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
the accusations we have heard today, the tax gap was higher in 2009 than | :42:05. | :42:13. | |
it is today. The tax gap for corporations was higher. The tax gap | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
for stamp duty was higher. That is all according to the latest HMRC | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
figures. Loopholes are being closed and practical measures are being | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
brought in. By no means is this the end of the story. Of course there is | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
more to do. I am pleased to see the UK Government is leading the world | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
on this issue and I want to see it do a lot more. Corporation tax | :42:39. | :42:51. | |
reaching 17% versus 30% in the United States will be a major step | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
forward. President Obama was forced to take action against Pfizer | :42:58. | :43:07. | |
because of high corporation tax in the United States. There is more to | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
do. I don't claim that this is mission accomplished. But a lot of | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
good steps have been taken. It is bad for business to have tax havens | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
operating as they do today. Let me give you a brief example from a | :43:24. | :43:30. | |
former career I had as managing director of art business. Many | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
valuable works of art are held in Panama and other countries. A | :43:37. | :43:47. | |
dispute lasted four years. It was likely to be looted during the | :43:48. | :43:58. | |
Nazis. They were revealed to be the owner and I suspect that painting | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
will finally go back to its legitimate owner. I wanted to close | :44:04. | :44:14. | |
with a comment on the tax with a sea issue which has been raised in the | :44:15. | :44:22. | |
press by Polly Toynbee and others. I think this would be a seriously | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
detrimental step. The last major occasion I can think of in a large | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
developed economy where this occurred was during the Civil War in | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
the United States. To try and encourage compliance when the | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
produced income tax, tax returns were posted on the walls of | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
courthouses across the United States. It was one of the most | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
unpopular policies in the history of the United States and it did not | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
increase compliance. The Treasury Secretary said it was utterly | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
useless from a Treasury perspective. Was just the gratification of idle | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
curiosity and the filling of newspaper space. Setting aside prime | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
ministers and politicians, let's defend the right of individuals in | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
this country to have privacy in their business and financial | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
affairs. Legitimate law-abiding citizens of this country should not | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
be the losers of some individuals taking part in criminal acts. It is | :45:25. | :45:36. | |
some scandal where criminals, politicians and dictators have been | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
hiding billions and billions of pounds in offshore accounts under | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
the names of companies that don't actually exist. It is the scale and | :45:44. | :45:52. | |
nature of the scandal that causes me to be so depressed about the nature | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
of the debate we have had in this chamber this afternoon but also | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
leading up to the satin and. It has taken us almost two weeks to | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
actually start debating the issue. I didn't quite buy everything the | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
honourable gentleman for new had to say, but I thought he at least gave | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
one of the most incisive speeches of the contributions today. It is quite | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
obvious this issue is such a major hot potato for the two main parties | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
in this chamber. So hot that they seem to prefer to kick it back and | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
forward. You're worse than ours, we are better than you. Meanwhile the | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
public actually want us to debate the issues that have been leaked. | :46:43. | :46:44. | |
Forget the Twitter hashed tax, forget what has been written in the | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
newspapers, forget the sneering snobbery on one side and the braying | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
mob is on the other side. Let's actually deal with the issue. The | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
issue is not about class. We can have an academic discussion about | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
class later on. This is about criminality. That is what the motion | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
seeks to address and what I think all of us in this chamber really | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
want to address as well. It strikes me the are dashed there are two key | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
ways in which we can tackle this hobbled. One is through resources in | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
terms of resources available to public agencies, the other is | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
through changes in legislation. Lots of members have mentioned you can | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
also look at beefing up international cooperation as well. I | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
genuinely welcome the measures the Prime Minister announced in the | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
statement to the House on Monday. The cross agency task force, the | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
funding that will come with that, and the other measures surrounding | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
legislation are extremely important. And to be welcomed. What I would | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
like the Minister to sum up in her closing remarks if she could would | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
beware the government sees Interpol having a role to play. That is not | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
something I've heard at all. Interpol have not released any | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
public statements on this. I would like to noise Interpol are going to | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
be invited to the corruption summit the Prime Minister will be hosting. | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
I am concerned about the pattern that is forming with these big | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
scandals when they seem to break. Whether it is this one are the | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
Volkswagen scandal or whatever. A very British pattern. A pattern of | :48:32. | :48:38. | |
continuously responding to events. I had hoped to hear more about how the | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
government intends to beef up its HMRC resources to deal with this. It | :48:45. | :48:55. | |
is clearly not working now. It is clearly not working. Somebody really | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
needs to step back and look at the problem within the context that it | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
actually exists. I had also hoped to hear more about how we would be | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
trying to re-cooked some of the tax that we were told. I got back to the | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
point I made earlier about criminality. I can only hope that | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
some of this will be getting talked about in the Paris talks today which | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
I understand the UK Government is represented at. The government has | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
made a lot about its ambition to secure economic security for | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
Britain. They are absolutely right to mention that. The threats we face | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
in terms of financial security are not to be taken lightly. Invite my | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
view the should be up there with the threats we face from terrorist | :49:47. | :49:48. | |
organisations. Just as the primers to announced that he has started to | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
recruit additional staff for agencies such as MI5 in the | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
aftermath of attacks on our doorstep in Europe, he should be seeking to | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
do the exact same thing for the public agencies surrounding criminal | :50:07. | :50:13. | |
finance. I wish the government would see more about what is happening in | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
Australia regarding and explained wealth orders. I will not throw my | :50:21. | :50:28. | |
fool support behind them because there are issues regarding presuming | :50:29. | :50:37. | |
innocence. It has also been used in Italy against gangs such as the | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
Mafia. The public requires us to act. It requires us to stop the | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
politicking, some of which has risen its head today. We need the fine | :50:47. | :50:54. | |
minds of this House, and there are some in this House, such as the | :50:55. | :51:04. | |
right honourable lady who has come together on across party basis and | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
tapped into devolved parliaments and start to take this issue seriously. | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
Ignore those people who tell us you won't understand it and it is too | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
difficult. That allows them to keep doing what has got us to this point. | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
Failure to do so will keep on feeding precancerous way in which | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
our politics is going on. That will be to the detriment of all of us. | :51:33. | :51:39. | |
This is an important debate for all of the reasons given. The public | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
frustration there is with those who seem to be able to earn money but | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
not pay tax while the rest of the people do. A time of austerity. | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
Public finances are stretched and we need to find ways of maintaining -- | :51:56. | :52:04. | |
ensuring that taxes are paid. And because of the ability to hide | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
sources of income, there is all kinds of corruption, including as we | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
have found in Northern Ireland, the ability to finance terrorism. I want | :52:14. | :52:20. | |
it put on the record, the leader of the buzz in and the Shadow | :52:21. | :52:22. | |
Chancellor can beat their chests about the way in which taxes are | :52:23. | :52:30. | |
evaded, but they showed friendship and they stated the very people who | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
used all kinds of fiscal fraud to finance murder in Northern Ireland | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
for the stop and we have never heard an apology from them for that. When | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
it comes to this particular issue, we do have two approach this with a | :52:47. | :52:53. | |
sense of maturity. -- to approach this. I know people have denied it | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
on this side of the House. Not from the politics of envy, as we have | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
seen demonstrated in some of the speeches today. And equally, there | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
must be, on the side of the government, a willingness to listen | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
to the genuine concerns and to deal with the issues. I do not believe it | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
is dealt with by simply demanding that everybody produces and | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
publishes their tax returns. If you are going to evade taxes -- tax, you | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
are hardly going to put it down on your tax returns and a way! Where do | :53:26. | :53:35. | |
you stop? -- anyway. If it influenced the way you formulated | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
policy, or top civil servants, the heads of many public sector | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
organisations, the press, because they are involved in it. We cannot | :53:46. | :53:52. | |
have the critics of what happens in this House then avoiding publishing | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
their own tax returns as well. Where do you stop? If that is not the | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
answer anyhow, I believe there are three things which may identify it. | :54:02. | :54:10. | |
We must know who actually is responsible for the income of a | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
certain business or company and be able to trace that. The question of | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
accessibility and transparency is important. How do we achieve that? | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
The the Government has gone some way along the road. There are those on | :54:27. | :54:35. | |
the Labour side who believes we should use orders and councils. A | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
form of colonialism, which I would have thought they would not be so | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
supportive of. Members may say it is nonsense. But either we regard them | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
as independent territories where they make their own laws and we seek | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
to cooperate with them and persuade them to do the right thing, or we | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
impose those laws on them. That is a form of colonialism and I do not | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
think it would work. I think the government is right in seeking to | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
persuade them to come along and see the implications of allowing people | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
to hide their identities in some of the businesses which are in those | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
territories. The second one, and I believe this is important, is that | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
tax avoidance, and many people have talked about tax avoidance today, | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
but yet millions of people in the United Kingdom engaged in tax | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
avoidance and think nothing of it. It is within the law. And when you | :55:34. | :55:40. | |
have a tax code which runs to 22,000 plus pages, with all of the | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
allowances and everything else, then of course you are going to get | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
people finding the loopholes. As the member from Blaydon has said, the | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
people best able to do that our people who have huge resources at | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
their disposal. Many taxpayers do not have that. People have coded | :56:01. | :56:09. | |
Adam Smith today. He said there should be fairness, they should be | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
simplicity, the ability to collect taxes economically. Those are some | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
of the principles we have to look at. The third and final thing is | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
enforceability. I do have reservations about the direction the | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
government is going in. Of course we should find efficiencies in public | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
services. But when I look at the number of tax offices, especially in | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
Northern Ireland, that are being closed, where hundreds of years of | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
experience of dealing with some of the most -- worst money-launderings | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
in the United Kingdom is being lost, I ask myself, are we really serious | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
about taking on the tax evaders? Even when we do spot them, HSBC have | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
been identified as one bank which enabled 7000 people, I think it was, | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
to evade taxes. Over 1100 of them in the United Kingdom. And yet only one | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
prosecution so far. It is not just a case of having the resources to | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
enforce, but making sure that when people are caught, examples are made | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
and they are punished accordingly so the message goes out that this will | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
not be tolerated. If we do not go down those roads better | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
transparency, of having an efficient tax system which does not leave the | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
loopholes, and thirdly, having a proper method of enforcement, I | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
believe this will go on and on. I want to follow the honourable | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
member from East Antrim on a point in relation to enforcement. He has | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
touched on the tax offices in Northern Ireland. The office in my | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
own constituency is due for closure in the coming years. It has lost | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
work that it was doing, including recovery in relation to overseas | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
taxation. But I do not want to join everybody else who has made this | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
debate more about the general tax policy of the government, or the | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
record of government in terms of taxation. But the public would | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
expect us to be debating properly is the enormous imprecations from the | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
Panama papers. I am not going to conflate the issues that arise | :58:22. | :58:29. | |
around the syndicated global grand larceny represented in those papers | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
with the questions in personal taxation for the Prime Minister or | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
indeed anybody else. I would prefer if in this debate and in other | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
debates, between now and the global anti-corruption Summit which the | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
Prime Minister is hosting, that our concentration would be on the sorts | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
of issues we would have been discussing anyway. We heard from | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
people on the government benches much about the government record in | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
terms of changing tax thresholds and what is happening to the taxes of | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
the wealthy in this country. We have heard arguments on the other side. | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
Let's address the global implications of the Panama papers. | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
In terms of the larceny that is involved, that is represented here, | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
these people have avoided or evaded these taxes. This is not a | :59:17. | :59:22. | |
victimless duplicity or deceit. Other people are left to pay those | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
taxes. Other firms are having to pay those taxes to make good exchequer | :59:26. | :59:33. | |
is. Other people are losing out in services or salaries because the | :59:34. | :59:37. | |
taxation is not there to support services to the levels needed to | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
improve the development of infrastructure. People are losing | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
out. That is not the politics of envy. That is the politics of | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
reality, of social justice. That is the politics of, we should be in a | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
world in the 21st century where we're role in this together. That is | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
why fairness and taxation is so important. The honourable member is | :59:59. | :00:06. | |
making his usually powerful speech. Christian aid recently said that an | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
oil company in Uganda approached Mossack Fonseca trying to avoid | :00:10. | :00:17. | |
paying ?400 million worth of taxes in Uganda itself. That is the | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
equivalent of the Ugandan health care service. It is not a victimless | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
crime when these taxes are avoided. Would he agree? I absolutely do and | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
that example empathy -- illustrates the point well. I want to | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
acknowledge the work of Oxfam, Christian aid and other | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
organisations in making sure we have more awareness of these issues. I | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
want to acknowledge not least the work of the all-party group against | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
corruption and the contribution of the honourable member for Newcastle. | :00:50. | :00:57. | |
But also the contribution of the honourable member from Amber Valley, | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
who is not able to join this debate but has had a keen interest in a lot | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
of the issues that have now surfaced in more dramatic form with the | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
Panama papers. It would have been interesting if we had heard from the | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
Minister whether or not government were actually shocked by the Panama | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
papers. We know there was the issue about the Prime Minister. But in | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
terms of the other issues, did the government regard this as part of | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
the course? Did they know what was going on anyway? Was that informing | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
their measures against corruption? Did it tell them something they were | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
not aware of. --? What worries have that other that what else is going | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
on. --? We heard from the Prime Minister today that the agencies | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
dealing with this our independent. Somebody somewhere should be asking | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
them, is this what you knew? Are you doing anything in response to this? | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
Journalists are being asked to give the information. Is anybody else | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
being pursued for the information? Is anybody having their doorknobs or | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
their collar felt? It seems not. When the Prime Minister is meant to | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
be hosting a global anti-corruption Summit, he could be showing himself | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
more active now in response to those papers. Now that he has dealt with | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
the issues around himself, he can address the wider issues. Maybe last | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
week if he had addressed the wider issues, people might have thought | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
that was issue avoidance on his part. He needs to be addressing | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
those issues now. If that Summit is to be worthwhile. It is particularly | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
disappointing to hear the Prime Minister being the spin doctor now | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
for the Tory territories in relation to their role. I cannot believe it | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
is not a tax haven. He is saying that because they have moved a bit | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
on what he said in 2013, he was gone to ask them... That that was enough. | :02:50. | :02:57. | |
There has been progress. Indications are possible progress. The Prime | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
Minister should not be letting up the pressure on the Crown | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
Dependencies. He should be ratcheting up the pressure on them | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
and everybody else. And he should be doing that by showing a stronger | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
response here in relation to our own agencies in relation to these | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
issues. There has been much in the debate today about the difference | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
between avoidance and evasion. Let's be clear. We know when we see the | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
syndicated effort that has gone into the artifice that is involved in | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
some of these shells and shams and scams, we know the architecture of | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
avoidance is actually fitted with the engineering of evasion. There is | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
not that much of a difference. We need stronger global action as well. | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
That is where I would have two ask the government again to reconsider | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
their attitude to some possible global measures because in the past | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
when they said they wanted to lead against corruption and were putting | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
taxation central stage, they also said they face against any notion of | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
a financial transaction tax. If there was a financial transaction | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
tax at a global level, it would make sure there was more monitoring of | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
what goes on these different schemes and moves when companies appeared to | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
trade with shadow versions of themselves, and when shells are | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
registered in different places. The fact of there being a uniform | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
position would bring some tracing to some of this and bring more of the | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
transparency that people say is needed as the answer here. What is | :04:33. | :04:42. | |
being done, what is being done in terms of recovery? The government | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
have a pretty pedestrian attitude in relation to that. They seem to be | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
more concerned about the media flap in relation to the Prime Minister | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
being embroiled in some of this. Now they think that is over, they seem | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
to be taking it very pedestrian cross -- approach to an issue | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
scandalising many and burdening people in poor countries in the | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
world. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
start by thanking someone needs organisations that have been | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
involved in supporting the enquiry as it has gone forward on the issue | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
of the Panama papers. Oxfam, global witness, transparency International, | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
Christian aid and others, who I think I've played an invaluable | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
role. May I also thank all honourable members for their | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
contributions to today's debate. The honourable members for Dundee East, | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
Torbay, South Suffolk, Newark, East Antrim, Glasgow South, but also | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
honourable members on this side, including my honourable friend the | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
member is for Blaydon, Newcastle, Oldham East, all of whom have raised | :05:53. | :06:03. | |
very important issues. We have heard about tax not being a donation, | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
being a legal requirement, needing to take the nonpayment of taxing | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
credibly seriously. The work of the public Accounts Committee also being | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
incredibly vital in this area. We heard from the honourable member, my | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
honourable friend, the member for Newcastle, talking about this being | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
a pivotal moment. A moment the government must not squander. Also | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
talking about the challenges in prosecutions due to the complexity | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
of the structures of multinational companies and how we need to extend | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
our thinking and the law further to tackling wider issues of economic | :06:42. | :06:42. | |
crime. This is a moment that we must seize. | :06:43. | :06:55. | |
We have had the public and the media who have not always been engaged on | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
this issue at this scale. There are now seeing the scale of injustice | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
and across the world. The Panama papers have lifted the lid and I | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
believe there is now no going back. We have had revelations that provide | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
concrete examples of what we have all suspected and that have exposed | :07:16. | :07:24. | |
the details of the worst excesses of our international financial system. | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
At the heart of this issue now is a matter of public trust and | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
confidence in the fairness of our tax system. People rightly say I pay | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
my fears she towards the cost of vital public services. I can't dodge | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
or negotiate with tax authorities, so why should wealthy individuals | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
and companies who can get away with not paying their fair share be able | :07:49. | :07:57. | |
to do so? And the fact is that for all the claims we have had from the | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
government, people don't think that they have done enough to tackle the | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
problems here or in the overseas territories or Crown dependencies we | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
have responsibility for. This is a global issue. Did need a global | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
response. Today's debate reflects the widespread public view that we | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
should be seeing individuals and companies paying their fair share. | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
And calls upon the government to implement Labour's tax transparency | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
in force in programme. Labour has a strong record on tax evasion and | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
avoidance. The measures we introduced while we were in power | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
will still raise ten times as much over the coming years as those | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
introduced by the Tories in the last Parliament. And that is the | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
conclusion of analysis by The Financial Times. We know as well | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
that the government over the last week have had the chance to step up | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
and take a stronger lead. And what is disappointing is that they have | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
failed to do so. The government's Parcelforce and other measures are | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
now a missed opportunity to end secrecy ahead of next month's | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
anti-corruption Summit. The Prime Minister who in 2013 wrote to | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
overseas territories and Crown dependencies Colin for greater | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
transparency and fully resourced central registries, he wrote again. | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
We have had written questions and oral questions. Now we receive it is | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
not the government's intention to push the issue of public registers | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
further. Instead the information that is now agreed on will only be | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
available to UK law enforcement and tax authorities. The beneficial | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
ownership agreement with the Cayman Islands only allows designated | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
Cayman Islands officials to directly obtain and provide details of | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
beneficial ownership of companies incorporate in the key bash in the | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
Cayman Islands to the UK. The Swiss tax agreement has raised just a | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
fraction of the 5.3 billion promised. The government are very | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
good spin, but their record does not stand up to scrutiny. What is | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
particularly stark about the Panama revelations is that more than half | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
the companies named in the papers were registered in the UK Government | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
tax havens. That is something we should be ashamed of. That is why we | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
believe the UK should be leading the global campaign, fighting aggressive | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
tax avoidance and evasion, and instead we are lagging behind. There | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
are a number of other issues that are vital. We have talked about the | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
need for an independent enquiry. Wilder has been moves across the | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
world and there is an important meeting in Paris today organised by | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
the joint international tax shelter and collaboration network. We know | :11:06. | :11:20. | |
there is an issue effectively regarding theft. Every year, about | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
$200 billion of untaxed income is taken out of our countries by | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
international corporations operating in their territory who are avoiding | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
paying tax. We also know that there is an urgent issue of speed. The | :11:37. | :11:46. | |
issue highlighted also by the chair of the network highlighted today the | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
need for immediate information exchange and these issues should now | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
be tackled at speed. Far from seeing the government keep that call, we | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
see a government that continues to slow down, rather than accelerate | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
its action to tackle tax avoidance. We believe that we have a lot more | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
to do. That we need to see good greater parliamentary scrutiny, | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
specialise tax enforcement units, greater company transparency with | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
companies that want to get for public sector contracts. Then need | :12:23. | :12:30. | |
for a greater cooperation with European partners. This highlights | :12:31. | :12:44. | |
the importance of our membership of the European Union in tackling these | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
complex issues which do not stop at national borders. We have called on | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
the government to take much greater action and do so faster. We have | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
called for stricter minimum standards for Crown dependencies. | :13:00. | :13:09. | |
The Financial Secretary raise this issue as a reason for not pushing | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
for public registers of beneficial owners. While I conclude now, let me | :13:15. | :13:24. | |
add one more point. On Monday, it was said that we on this side of the | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
House should snap out of our synthetic indignation. The risk he | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
said was a house stuffed full of low achievers who hate enterprise. | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
Regrettably, the Financial Secretary appeared to back him up. This is not | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
about begrudging those who succeed in business. It is a basic question | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
of fairness in our society. I believe that this is an issue on | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
which the rich and per who believe in fairness are united. When we | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
shirk responsibility to crack down on tax havens, we are letting our | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
country and constituents down. That is why I urge the House to join us | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
in voting for Labour's opposed measures today. I am delighted to be | :14:14. | :14:24. | |
given the opportunity to outline the action the government is proud to | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
have taken to tackle tax evasion, tax avoidance and aggressive tax | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
planning. Nor government of this country has done more to ensure that | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
people and companies pay the taxes that they all and to crack down on | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
those who don't play by the rules. That is why from day one we have | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
introduced a measure after measure to close down the tax loopholes we | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
inherited. To increase the punishment for those who break the | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
law. To drive forward tax transparency and make sure the UK is | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
at the forefront of the new global standards. To make sure the | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
International tax rules are fit for the 21st-century. To reform regimes | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
in overseas territories and Crown dependencies. And to increase the | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
powers of HMRC to collect the money to pay for the public services on | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
which we all depend. Individuals and companies should pay their fair | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
share of tax. The activities that have been taking place in Panama are | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
already the subject of intensive HMRC investigation. It is clearly | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
imperative to examine the leak data very closely. That is why we are | :15:46. | :15:55. | |
setting up in providing fun -- funding to sift through the millions | :15:56. | :16:04. | |
of pages of data. We also attach great importance to giving HMRC the | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
resources to protect our taxpayers. That is why at last year's summer | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
budget, we announced an extra ?800 million to fund additional work to | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
tackle evasion and noncompliance by 2020 and 2021. That will enable HMRC | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
to recover tax over the next five years. Thanks to this government's | :16:31. | :16:39. | |
action, our register of company beneficial ownership will go live in | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
June. We are the first country to have such a list free to access to | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
anyone. We are in courage and those who bid on public contracts in | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
England to provide beneficial ownership information as well. We | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
heard from a range of speakers today. The Member for Hayes and | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
Harlington has a new-found interest in a topic he asked no questions on | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
during the 13 years of Labour government, but he has managed over | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
the last week to confirm his party as anti aspiration, anti-wealth | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
creation and wanting to create an atmosphere of envy. We heard from | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
the Member for Dundee East who has much more welcoming of the measures | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
the government has brought in and also attacked Labour's lack of | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
action over 13 years. We had an informed speech from the Member for | :17:39. | :17:47. | |
Torbay. And a very interesting speech from the Member for Newcastle | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
upon Tyne North who is chair and founder of the all-party group on | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
anti-corruption. She will be aware of the new legislation we are | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
bringing in. She will want to participate in that consultation | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
regarding that offence. The Member for Suffolk South brought in his | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
expertise in business and highlighted the steps the government | :18:12. | :18:22. | |
have used to help low earners. I am pleased to confirm the amount of 1.8 | :18:23. | :18:33. | |
million has been made available. She raised questions about trust. There | :18:34. | :18:47. | |
are many legitimate reasons for creating a trust. The vast majority | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
of trusts across the UK are used for legitimate purposes. Setting up | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
blanket requirement would distract action from areas of most concern, | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
such as Shell companies. The Member for Bracknell suggested abolishing | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
corporation tax completely, something the government is not | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
ready to do at this moment in time. The Member for Newport West made an | :19:15. | :19:23. | |
angry speech including personal attacks on current -- conservative | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
politicians. Then we heard about the Labour Party's politics of envy and | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
our attempts to make the income tax system more progressive. The Member | :19:36. | :19:46. | |
for new work made a very good speech, credible action against | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
corruption and criminality that this government has taken. He drew on his | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
knowledge from the art world. We heard interesting speeches from the | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
Member for Glasgow South. HMRC works closely with Interpol and is indeed | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
finalising the list for the anti-corruption Summit as we speak. | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
In terms of the members from Northern Ireland, we heard helpful | :20:13. | :20:22. | |
contributions from them. In conclusion, this country is leading | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
the way on tackling tax evasion and tax avoidance, bringing in billions | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
from offshore tax evaders. We have made over 40 changes to tax law in | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
the last Parliament alone. For this parliament so far, more than 25 have | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
been announced for legislation. Although the party opposite has | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
suddenly decided to give lectures on tax, I remind the House that when he | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
came into office there were foreign nationals not paying capital gains | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
tax when selling UK property, Private equity managers paying lower | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
rates of tax them their cleaners and rich home-buyers getting away | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
without paying stamp duty by owning homes through companies. We have | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
taken action to fix that. We have increased the amount paid in income | :21:11. | :21:20. | |
tax by the tops 1% from ?31 billion to ?47 billion. We have made our | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
taxes more internationally competitive, we have cut income tax | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
for tens of millions of hard-working people, rewarded aspiration, made | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
the tax system better, fairer and more efficient. That is our record. | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
We are proud of it and I urge the House to vote against today's | :21:41. | :21:41. | |
opposition motion. The question is as on the order | :21:42. | :21:57. | |
paper. Those who see ayes see ayes. And those who say no, see noes. -- | :21:58. | :22:06. | |
see ayes -- see noes. The question is as on the order | :22:07. | :22:54. | |
paper. As many of that opinion see aye. To the contrary, see no. | :22:55. | :23:16. | |
Order. Ie company? Order, order. -- are you comfortable. The ayes to the | :23:17. | :36:08. | |
right 266. The noes to the left, 300. | :36:09. | :36:17. | |
The ayes to the right, 266. Nose to the left, 300. The nose have it. Do | :36:18. | :36:38. | |
not get too comfy. We know in opposition motion, related to the | :36:39. | :36:47. | |
white paper. Like an involuntary, I have selected the amendment, and the | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
name of the Prime Minister. It could help, if I explain, this is not an | :36:52. | :37:01. | |
allotted opposition date, the usual procedure, governing the handling of | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
amendments does not apply. After the opposition spokesman has spoken, | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
moving the motion, the minister is going to be called, the debate will | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
take place on the question that the amendment be made. Forward by the | :37:21. | :37:30. | |
question, about the mean motion. I now call Lucy Powell. Thank you Mr | :37:31. | :37:38. | |
Deputy Speaker. I am pleased that we have been able to secure this | :37:39. | :37:47. | |
debate, following the school white paper, causing concern among others, | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
the mean and most controversial proposal, is to force all of the | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
schools to become academies, and many of them, to become multi | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
academy trusts by 2022. It is this proposal that we have focused the | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
debate on, because we believe these clowns are deeply flawed, not | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
supported by evidence, have been causing disruption, and have very | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
few supporters. We have a growing number of people concerned, local | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
government leaders, headteaching unions. It is my intention that | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
today's debate is the opportunity, to air concerns, I will be Secretary | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
of State is going to be listening carefully, not carrying on | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
regardless. Elements of the white paper, that we can support, such as | :38:42. | :38:49. | |
the independent college teaching, but the wholesale academisation, we | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
cannot. The Government plan has been met with such concern, because it is | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
a bad policy, nor evidence base. It is yet another policy from this | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
government that is obsessing, with school structures, instead of | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
standards. And given the pressures being faced by schools today, | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
teacher shortages, cuts to the budgets, first time in 20 years, | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
overhauls, to the curriculum and exams, the idea that heads should be | :39:21. | :39:28. | |
spending energy on this ?1.3 billion top-down reorganisation is at best a | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
distraction, and at worst is going to have a damaging impact on the | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
School standards. I will take... I am grateful to my honourable friend. | :39:40. | :39:50. | |
The point is that the school that I am a governor at, chose to become an | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
Academy, because parents and he just decided that was the best model for | :39:57. | :40:09. | |
should we not respect those who want this. My honourable friend makes a | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
good point, I will, to make that myself, in the speech. Does my | :40:15. | :40:27. | |
honourable friend, not agree, that more importantly, you could have | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
difficulties, with teachers, and it could have been better spent on | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
public services, rather than the ideological. My honourable friend, | :40:35. | :40:42. | |
echos those concerns, made by the union this morning. But the | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
Conservative obsession with school structures, has completely missed | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
the point. Just as we have some excellent academies, we have | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
excellent community schools. Some poor academies, and some poor | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
community schools. We need to build an education system, that provides | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
an excellent education for all of the children, rather than putting | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
one type of school against another. One month has passed since the | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
Chancellor media, but we have yet to get answers to the question why. | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
When schools that want to become academies, can already do so, and | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
skills that the government deems coasting, can be put into Academy | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
chains, why should you be forcing all the others, this is not about | :41:31. | :41:39. | |
improvement, freedom, the multi academy trust model is in its | :41:40. | :41:47. | |
infancy. So, I am going to make some progress. We can look at each of | :41:48. | :41:55. | |
government arguments. They have said this is about school improvements. | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
We can look at the evidence. The vast majority of schools are going | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
to be affected by this policy, primary schools, over 17% already | :42:04. | :42:12. | |
academies. Those that are not, 80%, already rated good or outstanding. | :42:13. | :42:21. | |
At secondary schools, two thirds already academies, more failing than | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
not. Places like Doncaster, for example, all the secondary schools | :42:29. | :42:37. | |
already academies. I thank my honourable friend. Meeting a | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
powerful case. Can she reflect on the performance, at Greenwich, | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
moving from being one of the highest performing education authorities, | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
without the academies as in of a single primary school, and only | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
three secondary schools. That was out forced academies each. Parents | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
are concerned about why they have been removed from the process, not | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
consulted about changes. My honourable friend makes an excellent | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
point. At Coventry, we have another sub situation, the Secretary of | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
State refused to meet me about this, just a couple of years ago, we | :43:24. | :43:32. | |
failed, instead of the intervention, closing one Academy, and starting | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
another. What a waste of resources. My honourable friend makes a good | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
point. And today, Ofsted have reported that the performance of | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
secondary schools at Reading is not strong. Eight out of ten secondary | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
schools at Reading, already academies. Why has she failed to | :43:51. | :44:00. | |
improve these academies? What is the government structure? I'm going to | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
make progress. The government has claimed that we have more children, | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
at good and outstanding skills, than 2010. As proof, that academies Asian | :44:09. | :44:22. | |
leads to improvement. -- can lead. But the truth, the vast majority of | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
those good and outstanding places that children are at, creamery | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
schools. Academies Asian is limited. According to Ofsted, the number of | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
pupils, at inadequate secondary schools has risen by 60% over the | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
last four years. Academies Asian has taken hold significantly. -- | :44:45. | :44:55. | |
academisation. This does not withstand any scrutiny. Perhaps that | :44:56. | :45:04. | |
is why the conservative majority, the education select committee, | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
recently concluded after extensive enquiries, that couldn't evidence | :45:09. | :45:15. | |
does not allow us to draw conclusions, whether academies are | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
force for good. No convincing evidence, about the impact of | :45:19. | :45:26. | |
Academy status on attainment. I declare an interest, as a chairman | :45:27. | :45:34. | |
of Goole Academy. We have seen results go from 48% at good and | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
outstanding, to 92%. I agree with some of the funds that have been | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
made, but can she can from the position of the Labour Party, to | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
support Academy schools. The speech has seemed very anti Academy. As I | :45:50. | :45:57. | |
have made clear in my opening remarks, some excellent academies, | :45:58. | :46:07. | |
but the overall evidence is underwhelming at best. I am going to | :46:08. | :46:17. | |
make progress. The Sutton Trust has found some excellent academies, but | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
the majority under performing. Not only is this forced academisation | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
programme zero about school improvement, but it could diminish | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
the capacity for improvement, regional school Commissioners, | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
officials, and local authorities will be shifting almost entirely | :46:43. | :46:44. | |
away from skills that need improvement, to creating trusts, | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
changing the legal status of many schemes, most already performing | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
well. The schools Commissioner and Department for Education have not | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
even a choir powers, -- acquired the powers. So was that legislation a | :47:05. | :47:12. | |
complete with tough time? -- waste of time? She is talking about | :47:13. | :47:20. | |
coasting skills, and the NHS, we had organisation that nobody had voted | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
for, we have seen performance go down, people dealing with this | :47:26. | :47:34. | |
organisation, does she worry we are going in the same direction? | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
Something nobody has voted for, and the achievement of the children, | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
falling away? Excellent point. The government seems to enjoy these | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
reorganisations, nor are ideas. I will go back to some of the | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
concerns, about the performance of Academy chains. But before that, I | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
want to look at another one of the government's arguments about forced | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
academisation, it is about autonomy, and freedoms. What choice, one size | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
fits all? What is autonomous, about forcing highly performing schools, | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
into an Academy gene? Can she promised, every outstanding school | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
leader, who wants to remain, can do so? She cannot. What about the | :48:23. | :48:30. | |
small, village schools? They cannot be stand-alone academies. I see some | :48:31. | :48:38. | |
nods from the bench opposite. Even the Secretary of State, and one of | :48:39. | :48:47. | |
four men -- her main allies, described this as Stalinist. Lastly, | :48:48. | :49:02. | |
give way. I am extremely grateful to my honourable friend. She talks | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
about autonomy, democratic control, we want cooperative schools, | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
actually, parents, pupils, leaders working together. Why does she think | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
they are going to be forced to academies? My honourable friend | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
meets another excellent point. But in any case, curriculum freedom, she | :49:27. | :49:34. | |
and I both know the autonomy does not exist. Over the past five years, | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
we have seen parts of the correctable, personally drafted by | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
the secretary, signed off by Cabinet ministers. This sort of dictating on | :49:46. | :49:53. | |
the curriculum has been putting the screws, in straight jackets. We have | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
seen the narrowing of curriculums, schools hoping to improve Ofsted | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
judgments, on measurements. The origins of the Academy programme, it | :50:03. | :50:11. | |
was about new partners and innovation, but the wholesale | :50:12. | :50:13. | |
academisation programme, is going to treat a one-dimensional system. It | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
is no wonder, the Chief Executive of England's largest Academy gene, has | :50:20. | :50:27. | |
admitted, even less autonomy for schools, than local authority | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
schools. If the right honourable gentleman wants to comment on that, | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
more than welcome. Thank you very much. Being generous. She has asked | :50:37. | :50:46. | |
us to support the motion, in her name, this came and Prime Minister's | :50:47. | :50:54. | |
Questions, 3.3.1 of the paper makes it clear. Clearly, not the | :50:55. | :51:02. | |
opportunity, to clarify, which he take the opportunity, to strike that | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
from the motion? I am happy to clarify that the government proposes | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
to move the requirement, if you want to have a semantic debate, it is an | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
the white paper, on the same page. She can have the opportunity on | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
that, in a minute. I'm going to carry on. | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
It may come as a surprise to many members opposite that the | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
government's free school and economy agenda has shifted in policy and | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
practice away from stand-alone academies to Matt or chain models. | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
This was clear in the government's White Paper. The guidance issued | :51:44. | :51:52. | |
yesterday said, and I quote, "We expect that most schools will form | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
or joint mats as we become academies". There is evidence that | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
schools do better working collaboratively. The evidence of the | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
performance of change so far is next. There are some notably good | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
academy chains, but there are many more that are unaltered. Only 20 | :52:14. | :52:21. | |
have been assessed and just three have been more effective than | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
non-academies. I am not going to give way again. Sir Michael Wilshaw | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
only a week before the budget wrote to the secretary of state | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
highlighting serious weaknesses in academy chains. He said... Academy | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
chains are worse than the worst performing local authorities they | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
seem to replace. To continue with forced academisation of all schools | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
after such a damning letter is frankly irresponsible. There are | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
many questions here. Academy chains are in their infancy and clearly | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
require a law, but the government want them to take an thousands more | :53:00. | :53:09. | |
schools. One of the main reasons that the track record of many chains | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
is not good is because there is a dearth of any real oversight or | :53:15. | :53:23. | |
accountability. I share the concern expressed, when one said we are in | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
danger of creating distant, unaccountable bureaucracy is for | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
schools. But the Department for Education, via its small group of | :53:34. | :53:42. | |
school commissioners, can provide accountability, that is for the | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
birds. It is impossible and undesirable. It seems hell-bent on | :53:47. | :53:55. | |
cutting out parents from having any say over how their child's School is | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
run. Let's talk about abolishing parent governors and removing any | :54:02. | :54:09. | |
role for parents in choosing whether and what type of academy this child | :54:10. | :54:18. | |
-- their child's school has become has been met with outcry. I | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
understand he wants to clarify that parent's can still be governors. But | :54:24. | :54:31. | |
she knows there will not be plans to help them on. I do not pick this is | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
the clarification parents are looking for. Perhaps she wants to | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
take this opportunity to go further. She and I both know that, in a world | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
of academy chains, the role of individual school governing bodies | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
is greatly diminished and key decisions are taken by the two new | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
levels above school governing bodies, the board of Trustees and | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
the member board above that. Bodies which are all too often appointed by | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
the head or Chief Executive they are hoping to hold to account. If they | :55:05. | :55:12. | |
want to avoid more scandals and if schools are to genuinely be held to | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
account, we need a much more robust governance regime that remote trust | :55:18. | :55:27. | |
-- trustee boards are appointed. There are also very real issues on | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
the ground about accountability and responsibility for excluding | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
children placing children with other policies, all of which have very | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
real problems under this fragmented system. It also doesn't meet the | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
needs of the local communities. We cannot have a situation like that. | :55:51. | :56:01. | |
One place, where the last ale a level provision is about to be lost | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
taken by one school. There has to be a better approach that involves | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
school leaders, councils as well as parents. And, for a government | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
claiming to lead the devolution revolution, their centralisation of | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
schools is wrong-headed and contradictory. In places like my | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
own, the Chancellor talks of releasing combined authority to | :56:27. | :56:33. | |
create a Northern Powerhouse. That the skills of the next generation | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
are being taken away at the same time shows what a sham. So this | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
leads me to one last argument the government seems to make. That it | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
would be simpler to have won funding system. This is nonsense and | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
certainly does not support the ?1.3 billion reorganisation of the school | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
system is being proposed. It is disingenuous of the government to | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
link this proposal is to be fair funding consultation. There is a | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
broad support for this model, as long as deprived areas and areas | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
which require improvements to not lose out. Forcing all schools to | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
become academies does not need to be linked to this. I will give way one | :57:16. | :57:23. | |
last time. I think she is absolutely right to say we should not be | :57:24. | :57:31. | |
debating certain things. But when you reach a certain point of | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
becoming academies, it is sensible to have a discussion about what | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
future role there should be four assistance as we understand them. It | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
seems we have arrived at that tipping point and it's right to have | :57:50. | :58:00. | |
an -- a debate. -- for LEAs. With primary schools, only 7% of schools | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
are academies and a longer-term look would be welcome, but an arbitrary | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
timetable, set by the Chancellor and Prime Minister as part of their | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
legacy, I think is a total falsehood. Anyway, we have had for | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
decades a multifaceted funding arrangement for our schools and | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
there is no real reason this cannot continue. To summarise, the proposal | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
to force all schools to become academies or part of chains is | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
costly, which schools do not want or need. At a time when heads are | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
dealing with some very big and real challenges, teacher shortages, cuts | :58:39. | :58:45. | |
to budgets, flux and chaos in assessment and insufficient school | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
places, to ask them to take time out to change their legal status and | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
become an academy against their wish is wrong and will impact on | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
standards. This agenda is not about school improvement, because most of | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
the schools affected are already good or outstanding. It's not about | :59:02. | :59:07. | |
more autonomy or choice, as a one size fits all approach is being | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
forced. But what about parents, as they are being cut out of the | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
picture and not devolution, but centralisation. And there are very | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
real and serious concerns about capacity, oversight, accountability | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
and her plans. There is a growing alliance of heads and governors and | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
parents, teachers and politicians from all parties and many of the | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
original advocates of the academy programme against forced wholesale | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
academisation. This government, the government which used to say they | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
were all for choice, who professes to be about standards, which claims | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
to be on the side of parents and schools seems to be ploughing on | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
regardless of about a single coherent argument to support them, | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
nor a shred of credible evidence. They do still have time to listen, | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
to pause and reflect and today's debate gives them a chance to do | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
that and I commend this motion to the house. The question is as on the | :00:07. | :00:15. | |
order paper. I call Nicky Morgan to move the amendment. I will be | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
starting the five-minute limit. Thank you very much indeed. | :00:22. | :00:30. | |
Education is at the heart of this government's mission, because we all | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
know that a good education transforms a child's future. Our | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
white paper sets out our ambition to deliver real social justice by | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
ensuring every child gets an excellent organisation. The motion | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
set up by the opposition is a deliberate misinterpretation of our | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
proposals to transform schools. As we have heard, it contains at least | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
two errors in it, including an parent governors. I am afraid that | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
the interventions from the lady are starting to follow a familiar | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
pattern of scaremongering and ignoring the achievements of the | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
teaching profession and education systems. I know that since her | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
appointment she has yet to propose a single positive idea. We didn't hear | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
any more today as to how we raise standards across England's schools. | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
I will take the intervention. I also much late my friend for bringing | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
this debate today. I wonder if she would address what we in my | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
constituency think are the three most pressing problems, recruitment | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
and retention of good-quality teachers, particularly in some | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
subjects. Also the need to build sufficient secondary school places | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
in time for 2017, which the education funding agency are the | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
cause of delay for. And the need to ensure our children have the skills | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
for employment markets locally when they leave. And... Can I say to her | :02:09. | :02:17. | |
I am delighted she's engaging in the issues, which have real concern to | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
her constituency. And I do not know whether she has had a chance to beat | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
all of the paper, but many of the answers, I will come onto | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
recruitment in a moment, this government, this party has spent ?23 | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
billion so far on building new accommodation. 600,000 more school | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
places... And I am going to finish answering. And I hope she is also | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
engaged with the new enterprise advisor in her area, who is doing | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
exactly what she said about engaging young people in careers. I am going | :02:57. | :03:04. | |
to make some progress. I do need to ask, given the drafting of the | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
motion, how much the Shadow Education Secretary has read, | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
because only one of the eight chapters is concerned with every | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
school becoming an academy. It is not a schools White Paper, it is | :03:17. | :03:27. | |
not, as she stated. It is an education White Paper. I haven't | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
heard anything on the other seven chapters. About our vision to see | :03:31. | :03:40. | |
Educational Excellence Everywhere. And to set high expectations for | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
every child with a world leading curriculum. I'm grateful. I am a | :03:45. | :03:53. | |
supporter of the academies programme and the experienced in my | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
constituency is largely positive. I am disappointed to see the | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
opposition both cold one of their proudest innovations. As a | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
conservative, I also believe in choice. Could she outlined to me the | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
downside of allowing academies to migrate organically or schools to | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
migrate organically if they choose to two academy status, rather than | :04:18. | :04:27. | |
forcing a compulsive and arbitrary status. He is right to ask and we | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
are allowing six years will be changed to be made. He will | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
recognise the benefits of allowing front-line professionals, two run | :04:37. | :04:46. | |
their schools. Let me take one more. Like most on the side, I am a great | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
supporter of academies. They have been a great success in my | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
constituency. Will she say something about the capacity of small primary | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
schools, particularly in oral areas to be able to make this change? I | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
absolutely well. And I recognise that there are challenges for | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
smaller schools in terms of taking on the responsibilities. -- rural | :05:13. | :05:27. | |
areas. On the issue of parents, what conclusion are they meant to come to | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
when on page 65 the White Paper says the role of parents is crucial. Our | :05:33. | :05:42. | |
approach puts parents and children first, not through symbolic | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
representation, but through engagement with schools. What | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
conclusion they meant to come to, when of governors, parent governors, | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
over three decades is wrapped up in the word symbolic? The conclusion I | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
will come onto is the fact that we want parents not just to be engaged | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
by governing bodies, but by councils and the ability to make complaints | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
and to be involved in the education and aware of how their child is | :06:12. | :06:19. | |
taught. I am going to make some progress. The truth is, as the | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
amendment makes clear, there is no silver bullet to making | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
improvements. In effort and innovation is required on every | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
front and that is what we have done over the past 60 years. Since 2010, | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
we have seen 1.4 million balk pupils in good and outstanding schools, | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
because of our reforms. Translated into reality by an outstanding | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
teaching profession. To raise standards and free heads and | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
teachers to run schools in a way that works for their students. For | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
all we have unlocked, we have not got excellence everywhere and that | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
everywhere is non-negotiable. I will take one more. | :07:02. | :07:10. | |
Fiscal studies have estimated that schools are going to lose funding, | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
over the next five years, so what is she going to say to parents, who | :07:17. | :07:26. | |
think that the cost of academies is going to put more pressure on the | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
schools. Those members need to refresh their maths. Make | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
calculations, completely wrong. We want to make sure that everywhere, | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
is filled. The white paper makes clear, that we have the most | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
qualified workforce, in the country's history, but we want more | :07:54. | :08:05. | |
support. I was simply going to see, Mr Speaker, does my rate honourable | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
friend not think it is extraordinary, that this paper 's | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
volume of noise, not one person has had the courage to stand up, and | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
there was that something is totally inadequate, that we are trying to | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
ban the role in parents. Every single secondary school in my | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
constituency is an Academy, and they have parents on the board. Excellent | :08:35. | :08:45. | |
point. My honourable friend is absolutely correct. Two errors in | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
the motions. We are absolutely not abolishing the role of parents. And | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
we're not going to be forcing all the skills, to join multi academy | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
school trusts. This could be a semantic argument, but does it not | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
say in the white paper that she is removing the requirement, for parent | :09:14. | :09:29. | |
governors? Yes or no? I just want to remain... If you are going to ask a | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
question, you need to listen to the answer. I am grateful to you. The | :09:37. | :09:47. | |
Shadow Education Secretary motion has said this is not the white | :09:48. | :09:58. | |
paper, proposing the removal, of parents from governing bodies. It | :09:59. | :10:09. | |
does not. If the honourable lady cannot put them in, she needs to go | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
back and do English lessons. I am going to make progress. It is | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
important, honourable hear what is in the white paper. We want to | :10:22. | :10:34. | |
establish a new framework for development, on a par with other | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
professions. I am going to set out what is in the white paper, for the | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
benefit of other members, some of whom on the opposite dangers have | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
not read it. Honestly, I am not going to give way. They are deaf. Mr | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
Deputy Speaker, the white paper outlines the commitment, to make | :10:58. | :11:09. | |
sure it is committed. Yes. Might need a cup of tea. I want to hear | :11:10. | :11:21. | |
both sides. If we can't hear it, what about people out there? It is | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
an important debate, affecting all the constituents, whatever side. The | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
white paper, it a plane teachers are going to be trained, funding, fairly | :11:34. | :11:44. | |
distributed, so that the receive the same level, we want commitments, so | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
that every single changed, receives that, supporting those for whatever | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
reason have fallen out of mainstream education. And we have bold new | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
strategy, that all members should welcome. To tackle areas of chronic | :12:00. | :12:08. | |
underperformance, targeting improvement support, from National | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
education, to teaching skills, the teaching service, areas that need | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
them most. I am grateful to the Secretary of State. | :12:19. | :12:30. | |
The last sixth form A level provision has been withdrawn, | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
concern about this issue, could she explain, why she has refused to meet | :12:35. | :12:44. | |
my honourable friend, and myself, to discuss concerns? Of course, we will | :12:45. | :12:53. | |
meet them. The school minister agreed. The Labour Academy | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
programme, transformed. That is kind. As an MP from Hampshire, Edie | :13:00. | :13:08. | |
Falco Saint of schools, its standing. The concerns, expressed by | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
teachers, locally, it is confusion. My concern, I am sure she can | :13:17. | :13:27. | |
combat, we must not allow the bad to be the enemy. The numbers, | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
converting to academies, relatively low, any reason why Hampshire should | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
not create a new service, can already continue to be delivered? | :13:41. | :13:51. | |
Absolutely right to say, new role for local authorities, to set-top | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
trusts, provides services and build on the excellent. But I will set | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
out, why rethink by schools run by the front-line professionals is the | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
most sustainable model for all of the pupils. I am going to make | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
progress, a lot of people want to speak, and because of the noise I | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
have not been able to set out what is inside the white paper. Why not | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
spread the transformation that we have seen from the academies, to | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
enable excellent provision for all children's. We saw, autonomy, giving | :14:33. | :14:46. | |
strong sponsors the freedom of flexibility, and no reason, why did | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
an outstanding leaders should not have that as well. We want to Michu | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
that schools are going to be run by those who know them best, enabling | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
cooperation, giving parents more of say, moving over the next six years, | :15:07. | :15:15. | |
to meet every school and Academy. No doubt, we all want the best for the | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
children. And at Dorset, we have both. But can I suggest caution, one | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
size fits all always makes me nervous. The natural progression, | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
from one to the other, probably the best, rather than the imposition. I | :15:34. | :15:43. | |
entirely understand, based on his experiences, and I have the benefit | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
of visiting schools across the country, despite schools becoming | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
academies, also lots of different models, different sizes, and | :15:55. | :15:56. | |
different opportunities for headteachers. Big, small, | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
collaboration, alternative provision. We have an amazing | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
education system. It is something to be welcomed and celebrated. I want | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
to thank the Secretary of State. The Labour MPs, opposite, talking | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
positively about the transformative are fixed. I am particularly proud, | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
but I am a conservative because I believe in choice. Does the | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
Secretary of State agree that we should put our trust in parents in | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
governing bodies, can she look at this phrase? I also trust parents | :16:42. | :16:52. | |
and governing bodies, and we have the appetite across the country, for | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
headteachers to take on more responsibilities, not be told what | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
to do by local authorities. Making choices, based for the schools, | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
pupils and communities. The last intervention. The Secretary of | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
State, I think is going to confirm, this is the white paper, but she has | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
also worked with Conservative controlled local authorities, good | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
records of keeping open local poverty schools. Can we have a | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
compromise, so that county councils will not be forced, to lose control, | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
it is essential at these rural areas that we keep them open. I know that | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
it is a compromise, not forcing anything on anybody. I was meeting | :17:44. | :17:51. | |
some of the LGA members, this morning, to discuss those points. | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
They have welcomed the moves, about how we want to clarify how the moves | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
will be looking in the future. And of course, providing excellent | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
services, so nothing to stop those excellent services continuing. But | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
my rate honourable friend is correct, we will continue with | :18:11. | :18:12. | |
discussions. I am going to make some progress. A lot of members want to | :18:13. | :18:20. | |
speak in this debate. The Academy programme, takes the belief that the | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
services should be run by front-line professionals. International | :18:28. | :18:29. | |
evidence has shown that the autonomy, is linked to improved | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
performance, and it must be in place. Test scores higher, when | :18:36. | :18:47. | |
Skills manage budget, and managed just. Academies, better teachers, | :18:48. | :19:00. | |
innovation, teachers rewarded and academies are better for pupils, | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
taking advantage of new opportunities, for the government to | :19:07. | :19:14. | |
intervene. Mr Deputy Speaker, we have already talked about the fact | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
that we want parents to be more involved, not less, and as the Prime | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
Minister has said, we have never suggested that the should not be | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
sitting on government bodies. We support parents, always being | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
encouraged, but always for parents to be involved. Including, for | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
example, Nottinghamshire, has a local governing body for each of the | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
academies. Each of the representatives receive inductions, | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
ongoing developments, so that they can be clear about the role. We will | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
also introduce regular softies, satisfaction, and examination | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
results. As the Deputy Speaker, one of the issues that has not been | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
addressed, the lack of intervention, by some local authorities, which are | :20:05. | :20:12. | |
schools, failing or coasting. Many have not appointed an executive | :20:13. | :20:23. | |
board since 2006, I give way. I am pleased it is a popular | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
intervention. On this point, the role of local authorities, can I | :20:29. | :20:41. | |
commend, the model we have established, education, we accept | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
that the children and they have concerns about the forced Academy, | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
but the educational standards, the proactive local authorities, should | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
be accepting children, whatever school? I am looking forward to | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
visiting his constituency, and I certainly will of course, be looking | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
at these models, achieving the education excellence, and at the | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
white paper. We have already been shown to respond quickly, when | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
academies, underperform. We have issued 154 notices, changing the | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
leadership of 129, in cases of particular concern. Powers | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
introduced by the act, allow us to act swiftly, and I will take the | :21:36. | :21:43. | |
honourable gentleman. I am grateful to the Secretary of State, will she | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
not allow parents a say in whether the school becomes an Academy? | :21:50. | :22:04. | |
Why are we doing this now? The trajectory is three quarters of | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
secondary and a third of all primary schools will be academies. My | :22:12. | :22:19. | |
honourable friend said it would make it increasingly difficult for local | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
authorities to manage, with fewer and fewer schools. We will work for | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
local authorities to make sure they are on -- able to enter | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
partnerships. Something of the opposition has deliberately failed | :22:36. | :22:37. | |
to understand if this is fully funded. We have over ?500 million, | :22:38. | :22:46. | |
including recruiting... She has given away a lot. If she wants to | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
give way, that is fine. But stop clamouring and shouting. I want to | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
fit you warning. Thank you. We have over ?500 million available in this | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
Parliament to include capacity, including sponsors and development. | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
As ever, the calculation, which the lady seems so fond of views grossly | :23:11. | :23:19. | |
inaccurate costings. Saying the average cost will be ?66,000 per | :23:20. | :23:29. | |
academy. Costs have fallen by over 250,000. It will fall significantly | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
in the years ahead as we move towards full academisation. I'm | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
grateful. She talks about the ?500 million available in this | :23:42. | :23:43. | |
Parliament. Could she give an undertaking to publish, in great | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
detail, the department's costings to give us the reassurance that this is | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
fully funded and that all of the costs have been fully taken into | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
account, because I am afraid to say her figures seem a bit pie in the | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
sky. I can assure him my figures are not. We publish a huge amount other | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
information and if he wants to write me about schools in his | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
constituency, I will be happy to respond. I'm glad you have been | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
waiting for this, because in Kingston, we have the best GCSE | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
results in the country. Only one of the schools is not an academy. It is | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
legitimate to have a debate about this. But would she agree with me | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
that whatever the honourable lady on the opposite bench misrepresented, | :24:36. | :24:43. | |
what she did miss rep did not -- you are right. What she did not | :24:44. | :24:51. | |
misrepresent was this gaffe about asset stripping private profit that | :24:52. | :25:02. | |
many colleagues have engaged in. Absolutely. Withdrawing. You got the | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
message across. That's great. Thank you. He is absolutely passionate | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
about this programme and raising standards. And I join him in that. | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
Let me refute another falsehood in their motion. But we will force all | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
schools to be part of Monte Academy trusts. They will not be forced to | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
join up with other schools. Many schools want to join a trust, | :25:29. | :25:36. | |
because they can see the benefits. -- multi-academy trusts. They can | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
setup their own, but to be clear we will never make any successful | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
school that is capable of operating alone during trust. On this side, we | :25:45. | :25:52. | |
are extremely grateful for the fact we have finally made progress on the | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
issue of fairer funding, which is incredibly important, particularly | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
in rural constituencies. Or she confirms that the progress on fairer | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
funding does not depend in anyway unenforced customisation? -- | :26:06. | :26:14. | |
enforced academisation? The opposition had 13 years to sort out | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
equities in school funding and we had nothing from them. What I see is | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
the trajectories for moving onto the new funding formula... We hope to | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
start in the 2017 and 2018 financial years. And we will work out the best | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
way for them to do so and the collaboration they will have. Let me | :26:36. | :26:43. | |
take one more. She has been very patient. But can I just ask for an | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
small schools, because we have many in East Anglia. Can she confirm the | :26:50. | :26:58. | |
procedures for closure? That they will always remain in place? What I | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
do not envisage is closure of small schools. If they are serving the | :27:05. | :27:12. | |
community well, popular with parents and pupils, why would we want to | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
close them? We know that just becoming an academy doesn't improve | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
results in itself, but what it does do is set heads and teachers and | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
governors free to do the things that increase standards. Our reforms are | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
the hard work of teachers and have led to remarkable success. She never | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
wants to recognise the success in schools. We used to have a long way | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
to go to achieve excellent education everywhere. We will work to continue | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
that. Our paper sets out the wider plans for the next five years, | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
building on extending reforms to achieve Educational Excellence | :27:50. | :27:57. | |
Everywhere. Where good schools and teachers exist, we will let them do | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
their best. There they Junot, we will step in and provide confidence | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
to parents and children. The opposition's motion has no ambition | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
to achieve that. -- where they do not. I asked the house to reject | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
their motion and back our reforms to deliver Educational Excellence | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
Everywhere. I would like to move the amendment. The original question was | :28:24. | :28:31. | |
as on the order paper. The question is that the amendment be made. One | :28:32. | :28:43. | |
of the most morale destroying assignments that I have had in this | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
house is to read this white paper. It is riddled with jargon. It is | :28:50. | :28:58. | |
riddled with ungrammatical structures. It is riddled with split | :28:59. | :29:06. | |
infinitive is... And for this to come from a Department for Education | :29:07. | :29:17. | |
is particularly unacceptable. I come from a family of education. I myself | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
taught for a small time after it left university. Two of my sisters | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
were teachers. All of their working lives they were teachers. And I know | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
what the challenge of education is at first hand. Reading this white | :29:37. | :29:48. | |
paper, I do not believe that the Department does know what the | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
challenge of education is. And the... While there are huge numbers | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
in this 122 page White Paper of issues one could deal with, it is | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
inevitable that we should concentrate on the forced academies | :30:08. | :30:16. | |
policy. Because there is no justification for it. And that is | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
illustrated by the fact that it started in my constituency in the | :30:22. | :30:30. | |
last Parliament. An effort was made to turn a college in my constituency | :30:31. | :30:44. | |
into a forced Academy. And the only reason that that did not happen was | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
because the then Secretary of State, now the Secretary of State for | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
Justice ordered the withdrawal of the warning notice, which would have | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
forced the college to become an academy. Will he give way? Yes, of | :31:01. | :31:10. | |
course. I am grateful. Would he agree with my constituent from | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
Ealing, who writes in from a school where she is a governor that has | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
fought academisation before. She says if schools and parents are | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
meant to have freedom, than our freedom of choice is to remain | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
within local authority control. A very valid point. When I talk about | :31:31. | :31:39. | |
what happened with the college in my constituency, which was rebuilt by | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
the Labour government at a cost of ?47 million and is a model | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
structure, I quote from a letter that I received from the head | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
teacher -- headteacher of the college last month and what he said | :31:55. | :32:04. | |
was... "On the evening of Tuesday the 2nd of March 2016, I attended a | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
meeting with my deputies and the Ofsted team to receive their | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
detailed feedback on the section five inspection. It took place on | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
the first and 2nd of March 2000 16. I then experienced the proudest | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
moment of my entire professional career when we were told that the | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
college had received the full five outstanding judgment against the | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
criteria of the new and challenging Ofsted framework. " -- first and | :32:37. | :32:46. | |
second 2016. That would not have happened if this government had had | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
its way. I got another school in my constituency, a primary school, | :32:53. | :33:03. | |
which was going to be turned into an academy and direct with the staff | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
and governors to prevent that and we won. But we did not always win. I | :33:08. | :33:16. | |
was not long ago against Cedar Mount, in Cedar Mount School in my | :33:17. | :33:24. | |
constituency, which was forced into an academy and the forcing was | :33:25. | :33:31. | |
particularly odious, because it was done by forcing it with schools that | :33:32. | :33:40. | |
are not even in the city of Manchester. And from that came a | :33:41. | :33:49. | |
person who turned the whole situation into what she called | :33:50. | :33:57. | |
Bright futures, capital B, capital F, for which she pays herself more | :33:58. | :34:05. | |
than ?200,000 a year. And that is what a customisation is about. It is | :34:06. | :34:12. | |
about people making money out of a structure that isn't necessary, that | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
doesn't benefit the pupils and as we read in the White Paper, the | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
corroboration of schools that would be put into the Academy group 's are | :34:26. | :34:34. | |
not even in some cases in the same county. So it is nothing to do with | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
locality, or local feeling. It has nothing to do with local sentiment. | :34:41. | :34:50. | |
And the parents will have no voice tools. -- conglomeration of schools. | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
The government will create a thing called parent portal. -- no voice at | :34:57. | :35:04. | |
all. There, it is alleged that parents will have a voice. They do | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
not and they will not have a voice. They will have no voice in which | :35:11. | :35:21. | |
school their child goes to all the quality of their education. And, in | :35:22. | :35:29. | |
the White Paper, remedies offered. One remedy is to go to the | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
Department for Education. I have to say, if I write to the Secretary of | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
State, she will send me back a courteous letter, but she will not | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
deal with the issue that the parents raise, because she will say she | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
doesn't deal with individual or family issues. She only deals with | :35:51. | :36:00. | |
policy. There is another course for the parents. That is to go to an | :36:01. | :36:07. | |
ombudsman. We'll let you tell me, and I worked when the system was | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
created, when did someone go to an ombudsman and actually get a result | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
that improved the situation? -- will you tell me? The structure the | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
government is setting out in this white paper is compulsory. It is not | :36:24. | :36:30. | |
going to give local authorities any voice. There is a section about The | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
Voice of local authorities, but if you actually read the section, you | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
will find the local authorities do not have any voice, except that they | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
are assigned the role of making sure that children get to a school. That | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
is not going to happen with an independent academy. One that is run | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
by people paid hundreds of thousands of pounds. They will tell the local | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
authority to get lost. And it is not simply the authority. There is the | :37:03. | :37:12. | |
fact that the government is going to create 503 schools. We've got free | :37:13. | :37:20. | |
schools my constituency. -- free schools. | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
We have got free schools run by the Catholic church, very good, and the | :37:26. | :37:38. | |
Muslim community wants to be involved. But it does not want to | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
get involved with this. What we are going to be faced with, from this | :37:43. | :37:51. | |
government, it does not care about public education. That is the issue. | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
Academies are not about public education, academies are about | :37:59. | :38:06. | |
giving a small number of people of polity -- authority, over millions | :38:07. | :38:20. | |
of people. I just want to say, tight on this debate. Thank you. Mr Deputy | :38:21. | :38:30. | |
Speaker, what many of us are looking for, from the white paper, the | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
ability to bring on these new skills, quickly, but in five years | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
we have not been able to deliver the community skill that is needed. | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
Would my honourable friend agree with me, that the seat skills, -- | :38:43. | :38:53. | |
faith schools, and others, the community is excluded? My honourable | :38:54. | :39:01. | |
friend as rate, and the fact is, that in my constituency, heavily | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
involved with schools, it is not a matter of the government providing a | :39:07. | :39:14. | |
choice, for parents, it is the government taking away the choice of | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
parents, putting them into the hands of extremely well-paid jeweller | :39:21. | :39:29. | |
cuts. This government is making a big mistake. And it needs to think | :39:30. | :39:43. | |
again. This debate is actually about children, and the interests of | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
children. It is about making sure that they have the opportunities, to | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
fulfill their lives. And we would not have a debate like this, if | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
local authorities in the past had delivered properly. That is a fact. | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
And the Labour government under Tony Blair would agree, because they | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
started the Academy programme, that government exercised the importance | :40:11. | :40:17. | |
of education. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman, correct to pay | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
tribute to the last Labour government and the academy client, | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
what we did for the most disadvantaged areas, but David | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
Blunkett said that this government approach risked the entire programme | :40:31. | :40:42. | |
altogether? I think Lord Blunkett was correct, expressing concerns | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
about schools across Yorkshire, to deal with problems identified. And | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
that came up, so I think that was a good point, well made. The position, | :40:54. | :41:03. | |
we need to think about where we are with education. And if you read the | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
report, from Ofsted, you can see the problem. We have got too many | :41:12. | :41:20. | |
failing schools, across the primary sector, causing the problem, and | :41:21. | :41:22. | |
when you leave the primary school without the ability to read or | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
write, going to secondary school, they were going to struggle and | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
continue to struggle. The evidence, frightening, when we actually | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
analyse the data about those children, who have got a bus stop | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
because they never recovered. -- bad start. Academies have delivered | :41:44. | :41:51. | |
success. Over 80% are good or outstanding. That is something we | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
need to be thinking about, and it is the reason why it is important, to | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
have more academies. But the framework needs to be explored. I | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
think it is important we understand what a good multi academy trust | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
looks like, the education select committee is going to be looking at | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
that. It is not to say they should become that, but it would attract a | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
lot of schools, because of the range of opportunities that it provides, | :42:22. | :42:29. | |
they emphasise the strength of the partnership, and leadership. I think | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
one of the key things is to demonstrate what a good multi | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
academy trust looks like. My honourable friend was talking about | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
primary schools. I think it is good to talk about, because we have got | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
to make sure primary schools get together, form partnerships. That is | :42:47. | :42:54. | |
why I was pleased when the NGA launched the report, joining a | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
group, to stay in control. That is about bringing schools together, and | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
hopefully through that structure, benefiting the transition from | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
maintained, to academies, if that is the direction that they need to | :43:12. | :43:19. | |
take. Quickly. Will he comment, on the issue of choice? One of the high | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
schools in my constituency was rated as outstanding, on the Department | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
list of 100, the 100 best, why shouldn't be forced to choose to | :43:31. | :43:41. | |
become an Academy? -- should it. We want all schools to have the ability | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
to be autonomous, walk with all schools, form relationships, and I | :43:47. | :43:58. | |
think that the thing that we always miss, we talk about the best and the | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
worst. We have got to focus on the Middle schools. They older ones, | :44:03. | :44:14. | |
most often, that tend to coast. And the fact of the matter, too many | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
local authorities have not intervened quickly enough, robust | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
Leonov, when the situation has demanded that. That is the | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
reference, that the Secretary of State correctly made, about interim | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
executive boards. I want to move on to this issue, of parent governors. | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
The government is not saying that they cannot exist. Two points to | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
make. The obvious one, it is not being outlawed, the second one, | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
everybody can be a parent. It should not have escaped everybody's | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
attention, you do not necessarily need to be a parent, to be a | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
governor, and I think that is an important point. And the idea, that | :45:02. | :45:10. | |
parent governors have exclusive wisdom, could be correct at some | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
schools, but not all of them. One of the reasons I setup the all-party | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
group, an school leadership, was precisely because I was concerned | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
that we did not have sufficient skills, all of them needed, for | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
governing bodies. And we actually talked about parent governors. The | :45:29. | :45:39. | |
general agreement, of that group, was that skills are the most | :45:40. | :45:47. | |
important thing, I think it is absolutely correct to be talking in | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
these terms. I want to quickly mention regional school | :45:55. | :45:56. | |
Commissioners. They are going to play an important part. The | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
education select committee has discussed that, with the Department, | :46:01. | :46:08. | |
the formal enquiry, we're going to have to continue to look at that, | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
because as the Academy programme develops we will need to see more | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
skill, more capacity, through commissioners. I want to put that on | :46:18. | :46:25. | |
the agenda, that does need to be considered, in the medium-term. | :46:26. | :46:39. | |
Finally, fairer funding. That is critical, making sure that schools | :46:40. | :46:46. | |
that have suffered in the past get that, and schools should be | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
encouraged to grow, when the demand is there, and last but not least, we | :46:54. | :47:02. | |
have to think about catchment areas. We have got the refusal of the | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
County Council, to be more open-minded, about catchment areas, | :47:06. | :47:15. | |
as parents choose. I think the education select committee is | :47:16. | :47:27. | |
correct. I stand here, as a member of the third party in the house. We | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
will be abstaining this evening, on the vault and the amendment. I am a | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
member of the education select committee, and as such I feel that I | :47:37. | :47:44. | |
have international observer status. On the basis of my membership of the | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
education select committee, I want to make some points about the white | :47:49. | :47:56. | |
paper. I am going to focus on things such as the National curriculum, I | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
was interested to read in the white paper, that the national curriculum | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
is going to become a benchmark, hopefully exceeded. I find it | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
difficult to understand, when we got the Holocaust education report, it | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
is supported by the government, but is not required to be taught across | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
all schools. I find this strange. How far is this going to go, if the | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
elements of the white paper go-ahead? Another interesting part, | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
of my work on the education select committee, I have been involved in | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
private discussion, with teachers and representatives, on the subject | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
of attracting and retaining teachers, a large problem in | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
England. I am wondering, how this idea of having six years, perceived | :48:48. | :49:02. | |
to be forced academisation, I am not saying how this is going to attract | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
teachers, especially as can happen with academies, terms and conditions | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
are not going to be national. In the sense that I understand from | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
Scotland. I also find it strange that the forced removal of local | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
authorities, in England, against the wishes, of local authorities, and | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
also parents, governors, trade unions, is going to go ahead. How | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
the Secretary of State can match giving them new responsibilities, | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
but taking away any control over what happens in schools. The last | :49:44. | :49:51. | |
thing I want to see, actually, I find it interesting from an | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
international perspective, the Chancellor of the Exchequer wrote | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
this matter to the house and obviously, followed by the Secretary | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
of State's white paper. The Chancellor of the Exchequer always | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
makes me think about costs, and I am concerned for English schools, and | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
everybody concerned, that the cost of this academisation, is going to | :50:15. | :50:23. | |
get money away from teaching schoolchildren. Important point. I | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
have a background in folder education in Scotland, and I know | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
that change is going to cost, and focus can shift. Finally, the | :50:31. | :50:38. | |
Department for Education is at the moment unable to present accounts, | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
because of the problems involved in consolidating Academy accounts, with | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
the Department for Education. If this academisation of all schools | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
goes ahead, it is going to make more issues, and problems. I think any | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
delay in publishing accounts, for any government department, is | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
utterly in public accountability. -- a delay. I realise this as a | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
passionate, and forceful debate. I wish you all well, but I would not | :51:13. | :51:22. | |
be taking any farther apart. I appreciate the opportunity to | :51:23. | :51:32. | |
contribute in this debate, this is a matter of social justice, and it was | :51:33. | :51:42. | |
described, as the best white paper, that he had ever read. I have a | :51:43. | :51:51. | |
feeling, I could be on the way back to the education select committee, | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
and I joined that, and as part of the enquiry, we make inspirational | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
school leaders, Chief Executive 's, academies, schools, we also looked | :52:02. | :52:12. | |
at Academy underperforming, coming up with a report that had | :52:13. | :52:14. | |
interesting conclusions. | :52:15. | :52:19. |