13/04/2016 House of Commons


13/04/2016

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Point of order. On the 2nd of December in this House, the Prime

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Minister, during the debate about Syria, promised that there would be

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regular quarterly progress reports to this House about the progress,

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military action against Daesh. Mr Speaker, I think the longest water

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could last 92 days, I think it is now 133 days since that pledge was

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made. Mr Speaker, have you had any indication from the Government that

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they intend making this quarterly progress report so that we can see

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what action is being taken and whether it has been effective? I am

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grateful to the honourable gentleman on both his point of order and his

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advance notice of it. The question of how the Government fulfils a

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commitment to the House is principally a matter for ministers.

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What I would say to that honourable gentleman is that having take some

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taking a keen interest in this matter, he will know that the report

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was presented to the House in December, and that a second report,

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which I think was billed or tagged as a quarterly report, was then

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provided by the Secretary of State for International Development on the

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8th of February. If memory serves me correctly, it was a written report.

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It may well be that the honourable gentleman and some other members

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were hoping for or even expecting an oral report. That is however not a

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matter for the chair. The only report I would gently make, and the

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Government, to be fair, have made a very large number of statements to

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the House over the last few years, that is not a matter of speculation

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but of fact. As the Foreign Secretary himself had unavoidably to

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be absent from the Foreign Office questions yesterday, prompting a

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modicum of comment from his own side, though he had done me the

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courtesy of notifying me beforehand, it might be thought a good idea for

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a subsequent report to be provided by the Foreign Secretary to the

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House, and if there is an appetite for that report to be oral, I know

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it will be delivered by the Foreign Secretary with great dexterity. It

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will also have the additional advantage, I say in inverted commas,

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as a matter for the House to decide, of pleasing and honourable gentleman

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from the Liberal Democrat benches. Point of order, Mr Paul Blomfield.

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'S, you will be aware of the decision by the business, innovation

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and skills department to close its Sheffield policy office. Despite

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repeated requests at the Select Committee for the department to

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share the figures on which the decision was based, the permanent

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Secretary told the committee, and I quote, I do not think I can point

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you want -- one specific document that covers this issue. In answer to

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the question about the costs at the Public Accounts Committee, he said

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the decision was, again I quote, not based on individual cost when a fit

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analysis of a static closure. Spurs, I have had access to a document

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entitled Finance and headcount outlying which does specifically

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cover the Sheffield position, and is in the permanent Secretary's words,

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an individual analysis of a static closure. Could you therefore clarify

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whether the permanent Secretary's words do constitute misleading the

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House, and can you advise me on how I can get the information in front

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of the two committees that have requested it? I am grateful to the

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honourable gentleman, but my instinct of reaction to him is that

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the exegesis of what is said by Government, including by permanent

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secretaries, and adjudication upon it, not proper matters for the

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chair. I think it is safer to keep out of that. It may will be that it

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is the subject of some dispute and the honourable gentleman is

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dissatisfied. It is really however for the committees concerned, I must

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underline this, to press the committee is concerned, I must

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underline this, depressingly formation they require. -- to press

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for the information. If they are dissatisfied with what they have had

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or not had, they should persist, and there are well-established

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procedures for doing so, although we have a feeling that by putting his

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concerns on the record he may well find that the Government is able and

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inclined to offer the information that the Doak requires. Point of

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order. Thank you, and apologies for not giving advance notice because I

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had hoped it would be raised in prime ministers questions. On the

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28th of October 2015, in a letter to my right, ball friend the Prime

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Minister, Sir John Chilcot said that the Iraqi report would be available,

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the text of the report will be available on the week commencing the

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18th of April 2016, at which point it would be passed over to the

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security services for tracking. Given that that is Monday, I wonder

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if you have received notice from the Government that they intend to make

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a statement to the House as to when this long-awaited report will be

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available. I have received no such indication of an imminent statement.

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I think that when this issue has been aired in the House, the sense

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of dissatisfaction across the chamber has been audible, frankly,

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not just to the chair, but to millions of people throughout the

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country. It has become exceptionally and excessively protracted. So I

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understand his frustration, to put it on the record again, and it will

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have been heard in the appropriate quarters. But have I received

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indication of a statement? I'm afraid I haven't. If there are no

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further points of order, perhaps we can come to the ten minute rule

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motion. Joan Ryan. I would like to eventually be given

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to bring any bill that require its schedule eight this option payments

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between Network Rail and train operators to be allocated to

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specified projects aimed at increasing the quality, value for

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money and the viability of passenger experience of railway travel and

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associated services for connected purposes. I am grateful for the

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opportunity to present this bill to the house today, the purposes of

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which are threefold. Firstly, it seeks to improve services on offer

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to rail commuters across the country. Secondly, it aims to ensure

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millions of pounds of taxpayer money is directed toward benefiting

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passengers rather than lining the pockets of train operating

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companies. Thirdly, the bill seeks to shine a light on a part of the

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rail industry which is a bewildering in its complexity and open it up to

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greater public scrutiny and accountability. This bill would

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create a responsibility for the regulator to guarantee any net

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income made by train operators from schedule eight payments and

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mortality is used to fund overall passenger benefits on the network.

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It is important to note this bill is not intended to stop or replace

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current compensation arrangements between train operators and

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passengers was reimburse passengers for delays. Mr Speaker, rail

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commuters in Enfield and throughout the country are getting a raw deal.

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They are paying sky-high ticket prices for a rock bottom surface.

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They are currently having to endure the worst performers in terms of

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train punctuality for almost a decade. In 2014-15, 47 million

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passenger journeys on the railways were either cancelled or delayed.

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Members of the public are shocked when they learn train operators can

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actually make a profit from Network Rail failures. If trains are delayed

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or cancelled and the responsibility lies with Network Rail, for instance

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when work or power fails, the Network Rail compensation payments

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to train operators. These are what is known as internet industry

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arrangements or schedule eight this option payments. Train operators are

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not obliged to reinvest this money in services for passengers and the

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payments received from Network Rail bear no relation to the passenger

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compensation schemes between the train operators and their customers.

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Only a fraction of what train operators receive an payments from

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Network Rail is ever passed on to commuters whose journeys have been

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disrupted. Passengers are certainly not helped to claim what they are

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owed for delays given a train operators make it so difficult for

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them to access compensation. It is really important that passengers are

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made more aware of the rights so I applaud the recent work of Which and

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their Make A Real Refunds Easier campaign for putting pressure on

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train operators to make the process simpler, fairer and more accessible

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to commuters. I call on the Government to bring rail travel

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within the EU consumer rights act. The unfairness of the current

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structure of the railway compensation payments is rarely

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brought to light when we consider how much money is involved and how

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poorly passengers are being compensated compared to train

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operators. I commend the work of my honourable friend for nothing come

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south and the shadow transport team who have recently exposed this

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issue. The analysis shows that between 2010 and 2015 Network Rail

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paid out ?575 million to train operators in schedule eight

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payments. Over the same period train operators only provided compensation

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to passengers to the tune of ?73 million. This is a compensation gap

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of more than half ?1 billion. A substantial boost to train operating

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companies profit margins. I accept train operators should be able to

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cover costs of loss of revenue the in car which arise from the

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unplanned delays caused by Network Rail. But what they should not be

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able to do is make a profit over and above these costs from train delays

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and cancellations. That is just plain wrong. From 2014-15 the

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Government provided a grant payment to Network Rail of ?3.8 billion.

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Therefore, to add insult to injury, a significant amount of taxpayer

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money flows from Network Rail back to private train operating

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companies, many of them ultimately owned by foreign governments under

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schedule eight payments. It is scandalous that a system can be

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designed in such a way that the very people using the rail network and

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who are most affected by poor standard of service on offer, Sachs

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being commuters, and entered contributing to train operators

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profits, out of the own misery. How can this be right? Where is the

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accountability for the fear being taxpaying public regarding how the

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system operates and where this money goes? The real expert, Kristian

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Walmart, has said, in an ideal world train operators would only get back

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the actual money that unexpected delays cost them, however the level

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is determined by an economic model but only vaguely reflects the impact

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of the least felt I passengers. So vaguely to be meaningless. He goes

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on to say that the current system, does the railways and no credit and

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create the perverse incentives that plague the industry. I could not

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agree more. This situation must change. We need a way of linking

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schedule eight payments to benefits which improve customer experience of

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railways and this bill will make that happen. I want the rail

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regulator to be given the power to ensure train operating companies

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have to provide a full disclosure or any net profit they might make from

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schedule eight payments. This information should be made available

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to the public and with rigorous monitoring by the regulator that

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money should then be put towards improving customer experience and

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giving them a high value service. These measures could include

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retaining ticket office staff, facilitating easier access into a

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station platform and trains, free Wi-Fi on trains or using the money

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towards paying for a guarantee that trend will not miss start out, a

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particular frustration for a number of my constituents. These are just a

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few suggestions and I think it would be a very good idea to consult

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passengers on the improvements they want to see to their services,

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should this bill become law. It is clear from recent evidence the rail

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regulator understands many of these issues I am looking to address what

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this bill. At the end of last year the regulator and Network Rail every

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a ?4 million real reparation fund to benefit commuters directly affected

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by poor performance on routes provided by pens like, Southern and

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Gatwick Express services. By increasing the staff at stations,

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employing more track workers to deal with disruptions and introducing

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incident management software, to resolve issues on routes more

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quickly, the regulators sought to enhance services for passengers

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affected by poor performance. I want a permanent rather than temporary

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scheme in place which can benefit all passengers across the country.

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However the real reparation fund example is an important first step

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by the regulator, and what it has set out to achieve and reinforces

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the fundamental principle which lies at the heart of this bill before you

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today. Improving rail passenger services should be a top priority

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for Network Rail and train operators. Commuters should not be

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left waiting on platforms whilst train operators pick up big profits

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from the rail industry's complex, or pick an unfair compensation

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arrangements. Mr Speaker, I would like to thank my colleagues across

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the house who have agreed to sponsor my motion today. This support shows

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the extent to which we all want to see the rail industry reformed for

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the benefit of passengers, our constituents, and it is for all

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these reasons I commend this bill to the house. The question is the

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honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of

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the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no. I think the ayes have

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it. Who will prepare and bring in the bill? From break, Julie Elliott,

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Louise Almond, Frank Field, Calvert Hopkins, Peter Keil, Caroline Lucas,

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Siobhan McDonald, will cleanse, Henry Smith, Charles Walker and

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myself, served. Improvement of rail passenger

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services use of destruction payment bill. Second reading, what they?

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22nd of April 20 16. 22nd of April 20 16. Thank you. We now come to the

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first of our two opposition the debates. The motion is in the name

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of the Leader of the Opposition and to move the motion I caught the

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Shadow Chancellor of page at that, Mr John McDonnell. I wish to move

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the motion that spans and might name and that of my honourable friends. I

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see the Chancellor is again absent to date much as I look forward to

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seeing the baby as members of his team I just wonder is there a

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specific reason for him not being here. -- seeing the members of this

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team. Is it critical? Can I then say to him in terms of his attendance at

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the IMF, maybe he wrote the IMF report from yesterday which

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downgraded the growth expectations of our economy and maybe think again

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with regard to the policy he is pursuing which failed to in our

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economy, infrastructure, skills and new technology we need to compete in

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the world market. Maybe we can send them a letter as he was passing

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through he can say hello to the chamber. Thank you very much. On tax

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avoidance and evasion we must move the debate on to the issues of them

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and effectiveness of our tax system. I say to the house we need to do so

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as constructively as we can. The pick of documents from Panama amours

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Mossack Fonseca has provoked an extraordinary public discussion. An

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entire head and Walters limbo until light. What is rebuilding is

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profoundly unsettling we know that Mossack Fonseca sat at the centre of

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the vast web of tax evasion and avoidance. The world's super rich

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commission its services to hide their income and wealth from the

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public eyes. Some had plainly criminal intentions. Money from the

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robbery was laundered through a shell company set up by Mossack

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Fonseca and a Mexican drug baron held his money in a shell company

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also established by Mossack Fonseca. Thank you for giving way. You raise

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some very disturbing point about Vladimir Putin and the Russian

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regime. Can he conform with the shadow Treasury spokesman raised any

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of those issues with regards the Russian administration when he was

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originally on Roger Today? Even if not criminals many of Mossack

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Fonseca's clients, if not all, happy strong intention of avoiding or

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evading taxes otherwise due them. -- had the intention. Would he agree

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with me that this is a real issue for others in London, particularly

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at the impact these shady characters have on our London property market

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and the tragedy that people cannot get onto the housing ladder who are

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Londoners and wish to remain in London and must move outside because

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these criminal elements of messing up the international system? It

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confirms the need for open and public disclosure of beneficiary

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ownership and beneficial interest because as the honourable lady nose

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and every London MP knows, the speculation of property in the

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capital city is denying many of our constituents a decent roof over

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their heads. If I can press on and will give way shortly. Mossack

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Fonseca exploited the presence of loopholes and entire jurisdictions

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that favourite secrecy and minimal taxation. We can expect further use

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in the next few weeks as the work investigating this continues.

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Yesterday the Panama headquarters of Mossack Fonseca was raided but ten

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days since the initial week I believe the UK offices have not been

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raided. This is despite concerns being raised by the firm's founder

:21:14.:21:17.

of the lack of due diligence the UK Ops is performed and the clear legal

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precedent for UK authorities to intervene. There may be more

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revelations to come, set to publish individual reputations. I'll put it

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mildly, the bright minister has done himself no favours of the last ten

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days. A lesson for the future is when asked a straight question to

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answer straightforwardly and straightaway. The bright Minister

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could and should have come clean about his relationship to Blairmore

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Holdings far earlier. Does he regret the support that he

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gave to the IRA, who are still laundering money and avoiding taxes

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in Northern Ireland, and yet in the past he supported their activities?

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I have never given the IRA support for laundering money or any other

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activity. Wherever laundering is, it is illegal and it should be tackled,

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and I welcome his intervention. Having spent ten years as an aid

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worker, I am acutely aware of the millions of pounds that are lost to

:22:28.:22:31.

development in poor countries as a result of these tax havens. Does my

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honourable friend agree that ahead of May's anti-corruption Summit in

:22:37.:22:40.

London, the Prime Minister needs to do far more to reassure the House

:22:41.:22:44.

that he will accelerate his efforts to persuade British Overseas

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Territories to mirror the UK's welcome move and establish a

:22:49.:22:56.

register of ownership? The issue of a public register is critical to any

:22:57.:23:00.

measures of a future, because in that way people can be held to

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account in the developing world where they are denying resources to

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their country. I will come back to that one. It is absolutely crucial

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that we do have this transparency across the Crown Dependencies and

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Overseas Territories, because, without that, doesn't it just

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further reinforce the message to our constituents that their rose one tax

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rule for the rich and powerful, and another for everyone else? The key

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issues in this coming period, and I think across the whole of the House

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we have to re-establish credibility we have to re-establish credibility

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is about taxation system, which has been so badly damaged by the

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activities. He has called for greater transparency from the Crown

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Dependencies. Can he therefore explain why this is the first time

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he has made such a call and why he did not make such calls in the 13

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years of the last Labour government? Can I ask the honourable gentleman

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if he looks back... Yes, I am, calm down, calm down. If he looks back on

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my record over the last 18 years in Parliament, I was one of the first

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MPs to set up tax justice meetings in this House that brought the tax

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Justice network and did the research. I have commissioned a

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review of HMRC's activities, including tax avoidance and tax

:24:28.:24:32.

evasion. I understand his concerns, I worked on a cross-party basis on

:24:33.:24:35.

this issue for a number of issues and have been critical of successive

:24:36.:24:40.

governments not doing enough. On the issue of tax burners, does he agree

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with me that what the Panama Papers have revealed is that there is a

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channelling of money for the rope bridge, and the poor have to pay

:24:47.:24:50.

their taxes? This comes on top budget that we have just had where

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capital gains have been cut for the top 3% while taken from the

:24:55.:24:58.

disabled. This shows that we are not all in it together. I think what

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people found extremely disappointing in the Budget debate that we had was

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at the same time as the honourable gentleman said, at the same time as

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capital gains taxes being cut, that is being paid for by cuts in

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benefits for people disabilities. It demonstrated most starkly that we

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are not all in this together, maybe from this debate, maybe from these

:25:25.:25:28.

revelations, we may be able to start the process and steps towards a fair

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taxation system which runs our public services effectively. Thank

:25:33.:25:38.

you to the Shadow Chancellor for giving way committee has been

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generous with his time. Last night, the all-party group had an excellent

:25:42.:25:45.

meeting with a Guardian journalist on the campaign which exposed this

:25:46.:25:50.

gamble. In terms of the openness and transparency, that could be achieved

:25:51.:25:54.

quite simply by a council from the UK Government, it is a matter of

:25:55.:25:58.

will for this UK Government. My honourable friend the shadow leader

:25:59.:26:03.

of the is made that point last week, and demonstrated example after

:26:04.:26:08.

example of where that has taken place. The order has been used by

:26:09.:26:12.

successive governments very effectively. Again, I am bewildered

:26:13.:26:15.

why that has not been taken up by the Government at the moment. If I

:26:16.:26:20.

can press on, can I press on a little bit? I am at the third page

:26:21.:26:23.

and this is getting ridiculous. If I could just pass on a little bit I

:26:24.:26:27.

can get back to the honourable gentleman. I have given away a fair

:26:28.:26:32.

amount, as the Speaker knows I am generous but I do not want to be

:26:33.:26:35.

speaking for too long. Can I just say this, even today we have not

:26:36.:26:39.

seen the prime and as a's full tax return or that of the Chancellor. I

:26:40.:26:44.

think it is important that actually that is established. The Prime

:26:45.:26:47.

Minister established the principle that I advocated three months ago

:26:48.:26:50.

that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, the Leader of the

:26:51.:26:53.

Opposition and the Shadow Chancellor should publish their tax returns,

:26:54.:27:02.

that hasn't happened. What we are confronted with today is a far

:27:03.:27:04.

bigger issue than any individual. At the centre of the allegations as a

:27:05.:27:07.

single issue, the fundamental problem is not tax avoidance by this

:27:08.:27:10.

individual or that country, these are the symptoms of the disease. The

:27:11.:27:15.

fundamental issue, the corruption of democracy itself. At the centre of

:27:16.:27:18.

our parliamentary system is the idea that those who levy taxes on people

:27:19.:27:22.

are accountable to the people. If those making decisions on our

:27:23.:27:27.

taxation system are believed to be avoiding paying their own taxes it

:27:28.:27:31.

undermines the whole credibility of our system. The common understanding

:27:32.:27:35.

is also that those who live here and benefit from public services will

:27:36.:27:38.

make a proportionate contribution towards them. Well, I'd better give

:27:39.:27:45.

way for this honourable friend verse otherwise he will be disappointed. I

:27:46.:27:52.

am grateful to him. To hark back to the point, the council that he just

:27:53.:27:57.

referred to, was he surprised to hear that his friend and leader, the

:27:58.:28:02.

member for Islington North, once described the use of orders in

:28:03.:28:06.

Council by the last Labour government is extremely undemocratic

:28:07.:28:09.

and in fact medieval. Does he think that the Leader of the Opposition is

:28:10.:28:14.

a Johnny come lately to this issue? It depends upon the issue that is

:28:15.:28:21.

being addressed. And sometimes, harking back to the medieval period

:28:22.:28:25.

may be the most effective way of dealing with these problems. If I

:28:26.:28:29.

can press on, I have given way to the honourable gentleman and I will

:28:30.:28:36.

come back to him. Let me just repeat that point, the common understanding

:28:37.:28:39.

is that those who live here and benefit from public services will

:28:40.:28:43.

make a proportionate contribution towards them. The level of taxation

:28:44.:28:48.

may vary, and sometimes it is higher and sometimes lower, but because we

:28:49.:28:50.

have a shared sense of fairness we expect those with the broadest

:28:51.:28:54.

shoulders to carry the greatest burden in taxes. What we have seen

:28:55.:28:58.

over the last 30 years is the growth of wealth inequality on such a scale

:28:59.:29:02.

that it has undermined the basic principle of democracy. Figures from

:29:03.:29:06.

Oxfam suggest that the richest 1% on more than the rest of the world

:29:07.:29:10.

combined. Let me press on a little bit and I will come back, I promise

:29:11.:29:14.

the honourable gentleman. Wards of assets and property and financial

:29:15.:29:18.

wealth have been built up. On the best available measures we have, the

:29:19.:29:22.

levels of income inequality in Britain today are climbing as high

:29:23.:29:27.

as they were before the First World War. The share of income going to

:29:28.:29:33.

the super risk has risen through the last decade is called the super

:29:34.:29:37.

rich. We are returning to the levels of inequality that we had before

:29:38.:29:41.

women had provoked and the development of universal education

:29:42.:29:46.

and health care, the world before democracy brought this under control

:29:47.:29:49.

and created a more Humane Society for the majority. The world of the

:29:50.:29:55.

Rockefellers and barons over what we are returning to. Immense, almost

:29:56.:30:01.

unimaginable wealth for a gilded elite but in security for growing

:30:02.:30:05.

numbers. Much of that wealth is now held offshore in secretive,

:30:06.:30:11.

unaccountable tax opens. The last estimate was $21 trillion,

:30:12.:30:14.

equivalent one third of the global GDP, is estimated to be hidden

:30:15.:30:21.

taxation systems. If taxed fairly, it would raise ?188 billion per year

:30:22.:30:27.

in extra taxation. This is not about a few families looking, and I quote,

:30:28.:30:31.

to minimise their tax bill, as the member for games but kind, it is

:30:32.:30:36.

systematic. It is an offshore world operating parallel to the rest --

:30:37.:30:42.

the world the rest of us living. It has been instructed piece by piece

:30:43.:30:46.

by multinational corporations and the super-rich. Are raided by shady

:30:47.:30:51.

offshore operations like Mossack Fonseca, and we have to be honest

:30:52.:30:58.

about this, also supposedly reputable accountancy firms here in

:30:59.:31:04.

London playing their part. PwC have apparently aided tax avoidance on an

:31:05.:31:09.

industrial scale to advise the businesses on avoiding tax in

:31:10.:31:15.

African countries, Ernst Young act as tax advisers to Facebook, Apple

:31:16.:31:20.

and Google. Last month, KPMG had one of its tax avoidance schemes

:31:21.:31:25.

declared illegal by the High Court. Altogether, the big four accountancy

:31:26.:31:28.

firms in this country hide at least ?2 billion annually from their tax

:31:29.:31:35.

operations, but it isn't just them. Bank headquarters operating in

:31:36.:31:39.

London have been proficient in directing their funds through

:31:40.:31:43.

Mossack Fonseca's shell companies. HSBC and its affiliates created more

:31:44.:31:46.

offshore companies through Mossack Fonseca than any other bank. Over

:31:47.:31:54.

2300 were created in total. A subsidiary of RBS created over 500

:31:55.:31:59.

offshore companies through its subsidiary in Jersey. Supposedly

:32:00.:32:04.

reputable companies are aiding and abetting the systematic abuse of our

:32:05.:32:08.

tax system. And we should be clear about this. The City of London is

:32:09.:32:13.

now being viewed by many as a tax haven. In the middle of a dense

:32:14.:32:17.

network of havens created for the super-rich to avoid the taxes and

:32:18.:32:23.

the rest of us much pay. I will. Does he accept that in 2010 the

:32:24.:32:28.

richest 1% contributed 25% of all tax, and does he welcomed the fact

:32:29.:32:32.

that the Chancellor revealed in the budget that that has now increased

:32:33.:32:38.

to 28%? It is not just a matter of tax. It is a matter not just of

:32:39.:32:43.

income tax either. Of course I do that, but let's be clear, in terms

:32:44.:32:48.

of distribution or analysis that has been undertaken independently of the

:32:49.:32:52.

Government, Conservative Party policy since 2010 has seen some of

:32:53.:32:56.

the biggest losses for the poorest, not the wealthiest. By 2020, can I

:32:57.:33:02.

does go to the budget group, they put together the tax gains and the

:33:03.:33:10.

benefits cuts, the poorest 10% will lose 21% of their income annually as

:33:11.:33:14.

a result of this Goverment's policy. That is five times more than the top

:33:15.:33:21.

10%. Let me quote this, the IFS analysis clearly shows that this

:33:22.:33:25.

year's Budget hit the poorest 80% harder than the richest. 80% of

:33:26.:33:30.

those cuts fall on whom? Women. I give way. I thank him for giving

:33:31.:33:37.

way, he is generous with his time. As well as appreciating the fact

:33:38.:33:42.

that 1% of the highest income earners pay 28%, would he also

:33:43.:33:45.

consider that this Government since 2010 has taken millions out of tax

:33:46.:33:49.

altogether by increasing the tax allowance up to what is now ?11,500?

:33:50.:33:55.

Let media with the tax threshold issue. The biggest, let me quote, --

:33:56.:34:03.

let media. The biggest gains come from highest earners, they benefit

:34:04.:34:08.

from the tax threshold moves. Let me quote the IFS again and get this

:34:09.:34:12.

clear. The IFS describes the shifting of the packs threshold as a

:34:13.:34:19.

giveaway for the better off. -- tax threshold. If I can press on, I have

:34:20.:34:24.

given way, I know that others want to speak. Let me be clear, this is a

:34:25.:34:33.

world that the super-rich inhabit, they lived by different rules, it is

:34:34.:34:37.

an alien world from the majority of the rest of us. Does he not agree

:34:38.:34:44.

with me that his party's opposition to removal of the family home for

:34:45.:34:48.

income tax threshold actually affects those on the lowest income

:34:49.:34:52.

in London and the south-east, because it will mean that only the

:34:53.:34:56.

wealthy can afford to stay in London when a family home is sold and they

:34:57.:35:01.

have to claim Inheritance Tax? The honourable lady makes an important

:35:02.:35:06.

point. We have supported the increase in tax thresholds to take

:35:07.:35:10.

people out of tax altogether, but the benefits overall have accrued to

:35:11.:35:14.

the highest earners, not the lowest, and we need a more sophisticated

:35:15.:35:18.

system than that. With regards to Inheritance Tax, the cut that was

:35:19.:35:21.

made this time round by the Government benefited the top 5% of

:35:22.:35:25.

the population. There has to be a better way of ensuring people can

:35:26.:35:28.

pass on the wealth to their children rather than benefiting the

:35:29.:35:32.

super-rich. We have to look at that again, I am happy to meet with the

:35:33.:35:36.

honourable lady and discuss this. I thank him for being generous. For

:35:37.:35:40.

those low income families in London and the south-east where their

:35:41.:35:43.

family home has increased beyond recognition who are now asset rich

:35:44.:35:47.

at income poor, how the party opposite going to help them if they

:35:48.:35:51.

don't take them out of Inheritance Tax? The importance for us now is

:35:52.:35:56.

exactly as my honourable friend said, we we build more homes to how

:35:57.:36:02.

those people. It gives access to homeownership to thousands more. Can

:36:03.:36:09.

we put the thresholds to bed once and for all? The people who paid 25%

:36:10.:36:15.

income tax will get a small rise. We, standing here, everyone of us,

:36:16.:36:19.

get a 10% pay rise next year but we will get a much bigger tax rise than

:36:20.:36:23.

ordinary men and women, and that is what we can't understand, because

:36:24.:36:28.

the rich keep getting richer and they keep getting poorer. That is

:36:29.:36:30.

what this debate is about, fairness. We must find a better way concerns

:36:31.:36:40.

over taxation system and benefiting those at the lower end of the scale.

:36:41.:36:45.

Although we are happy with the rise in tax threshold we need a way to

:36:46.:36:49.

compensate that in a more equitable way and again I just seen this dash

:36:50.:36:56.

it is not as seeing this, it is the IFS and many other independent

:36:57.:37:02.

organisations saying this. I don't want to try your patience. Let me

:37:03.:37:07.

say this, it is an alien world for the majority, a world of offshore

:37:08.:37:11.

trusts and legal trickery. It will in which it is perfectly normal to

:37:12.:37:15.

buy property in a London through a company registered in the British

:37:16.:37:19.

Virgin Islands managed by lawyers and Panama with offices in Bermuda.

:37:20.:37:24.

A world in which citizenship and attachment to a country is something

:37:25.:37:27.

to pick choose an dependent on price. The scandal of the non and

:37:28.:37:40.

continuous also -- the scandal of the non-doms continues. Any budget

:37:41.:37:43.

there was an extraordinary Klausner wrote off non-doms an entire capital

:37:44.:37:51.

gains bill, a giveaway to the wealthy. This is not the of's live

:37:52.:37:57.

in. Most of us the other other taxes and contrary to the member from

:37:58.:38:07.

Milton, people don't pay our taxes because we live an hour gone through

:38:08.:38:12.

low achievers, as he described them, we do so because a decent society

:38:13.:38:17.

depends on the contributions of all us. What I've taxes we cannot run

:38:18.:38:25.

the essential public services. We don't have access to the kind of

:38:26.:38:30.

specialist services Mossack Fonseca and other companies provide, we can

:38:31.:38:33.

negotiate with HMI see about when and how it pay our taxes, but for

:38:34.:38:39.

the global elites tax avoidance is as much a part of the world as the

:38:40.:38:45.

yachts and the mansions. This is the world, a corrosive influence on our

:38:46.:38:50.

democracy. The more the super-rich can escape the burden of taxation

:38:51.:38:54.

the more it falls on the rest of us in society. It is morally wrong a

:38:55.:39:00.

billionaire oligarch should be proportionally less in taxes than

:39:01.:39:04.

his migrant cleaner. It is a disgrace a corporation like Google

:39:05.:39:09.

should be no corporation tax for nearly a decade while small

:39:10.:39:12.

businesses are chased for tiny amounts. It is an affront to the

:39:13.:39:18.

basic principles of our democracy large corporations should be able to

:39:19.:39:22.

negotiate Switzer deals with HMRC. It is also corrosion of democracy

:39:23.:39:27.

when there is a revolving door between HMRC, charge of collecting

:39:28.:39:37.

taxes,... It is very unseemly when the Shadow Chancellor is addressing

:39:38.:39:41.

the house for there to be a kind of side exchange between a member of

:39:42.:39:47.

the opposition front bench and the honourable gentleman for South

:39:48.:39:51.

Suffolk. Very unseemly. You mustn't get into this sort of bad habit, his

:39:52.:39:55.

father in law is a distinguished member and he would tell them how to

:39:56.:39:58.

behave properly and I will do so as well. Always best to keep the

:39:59.:40:09.

in-laws on-site, Mr Speaker. It is a disgrace that an immense global

:40:10.:40:13.

corporation like Google pays no corporation tax for a decade while

:40:14.:40:17.

small businesses are chased but Sony and notes and it is an affront to

:40:18.:40:22.

the basic principles of democracy that large corporations to negotiate

:40:23.:40:29.

sweet deals. It is a corrosion of democracy when there is a revolving

:40:30.:40:34.

door existing between HMRC, charge of collecting taxes, and major

:40:35.:40:37.

accountancy firms, whose business depends on minimising taxes. I just

:40:38.:40:43.

say that HMRC's last director went to work for the light. We now find

:40:44.:40:53.

the director to the -- the wretched of executor of each MRC is someone

:40:54.:40:58.

who believes tax, I quote, is a form of legalised extortion. The

:40:59.:41:04.

structures of Government are being bent out of the bag tax avoidance.

:41:05.:41:08.

Decisions are what about the need to protect the interests of the super

:41:09.:41:12.

rich and large corporations. Democracy becomes corroded. Can I

:41:13.:41:17.

also say, in terms of party donations, the party opposite

:41:18.:41:21.

receives more than half of its election campaign funding from hedge

:41:22.:41:25.

funds. You and wondered if leadership made loud and repeated

:41:26.:41:31.

noises about tax of organs get MVP 's and Brussels voted ?6, on

:41:32.:41:36.

instruction from the Treasury, to block EU wide measures on tax

:41:37.:41:43.

avoidance. The EU Commission was lobbied in 2030 to remove offshore

:41:44.:41:49.

trusts from new site EU regulations on avoidance. Its record reveals

:41:50.:41:54.

that the people no longer trust them on this. Not only have the impeded

:41:55.:42:00.

efforts to clamp down on avoidance, the schemes directly implicate

:42:01.:42:04.

senior figures in the party. Several Conservative Party donors, three

:42:05.:42:11.

former Conservative MPs, six Lawrence -- sex members of the house

:42:12.:42:18.

of Lords with connections to Mossack Fonseca. -- 6-mac members.

:42:19.:42:25.

Independent assessments on tax assessments introduced since May

:42:26.:42:30.

show the poorest 10% of forecasters see the income fall by 20% by 2020.

:42:31.:42:36.

It is the poorest and least able to carry the burden who will suffer the

:42:37.:42:41.

most under this Government. An economic system that allows tax

:42:42.:42:45.

avoidance on this deal is one in which the inventor or entrepreneur

:42:46.:42:49.

is second to the owner of wealth, worker comes second to the

:42:50.:42:54.

plutocrats, taxpayer is second to the tax dodger. Inherited privilege

:42:55.:43:02.

and wealth is rewarded,... I was not enamoured with all the previous

:43:03.:43:08.

Labour Government's economic policies. Its measures on

:43:09.:43:13.

corporation tax avoidance I forecast by the Financial Times that is ten

:43:14.:43:17.

times as much revenue as the present Chancellor's schemes. The Panama

:43:18.:43:23.

league must act as something for the size of action. The Government has

:43:24.:43:27.

stepped up the rhetoric on tax evasion but much of it falls short

:43:28.:43:32.

of what is the duct or repeat existing announcement. I remind the

:43:33.:43:39.

ministers that in the OBR report that accompanied this year's budget

:43:40.:43:44.

included a scheme for those operating in the Isle of Mann and

:43:45.:43:48.

Joseph. It said that HMRC they're not have the resources to follow up

:43:49.:43:53.

on the links of the scheme. Can I say again, with press releases and

:43:54.:43:59.

more action. It is time to move on and closing down tax havens and

:44:00.:44:05.

clearing mist of avoidance. We need an immediate and full public enquiry

:44:06.:44:13.

into the Panama leaks. The Government's proposed task force

:44:14.:44:19.

will report to the Government from partly funded by donors are featured

:44:20.:44:24.

in the Panama Papers. To have any credibility any enquiry must be

:44:25.:44:29.

fully independent. We must shine a light on and prised apart the

:44:30.:44:33.

corrupt networks operate through tax havens. Part of that means creating

:44:34.:44:38.

a proper register of the was my interest. Members should not be able

:44:39.:44:43.

to hide behind spurious claims of privacy and we want HMRC proper that

:44:44.:44:48.

resource to chase down tax of orders with a new specialist unit dedicated

:44:49.:44:53.

to that task. Foreign firms bidding for Government contracts should be

:44:54.:44:56.

required to name their owners. There should be full public country by

:44:57.:45:03.

country reporting of earnings and order shipped by countries and

:45:04.:45:09.

trusts. The measures announced by the EU this week do not go nearly

:45:10.:45:15.

far enough, requiring only partial reporting by companies and the

:45:16.:45:21.

turnover threshold is far too high. Labour MVPs in Europe will be

:45:22.:45:26.

pushing to reduce their to a lower level so large corporations find it

:45:27.:45:29.

more difficult to dodge paying their fair share of tax. Back should be

:45:30.:45:33.

the beneficial ownership of trustee work with, which means creeping a

:45:34.:45:42.

public register of trusts, not only companies, as the Government is

:45:43.:45:47.

currently enforcing. The Prime Minister has a role to play as he

:45:48.:45:55.

lobbied for the exclusion of trusts. The projection of a public register

:45:56.:45:59.

of the trust, too often used to avoid paying tax and reduce

:46:00.:46:03.

transparency in our tax system. Let's come back to Crown

:46:04.:46:07.

Dependencies and Overseas Territories. We must ensure they

:46:08.:46:11.

enforce a far stricter minimum standards of transparency for

:46:12.:46:15.

company and trust ownership. The current programme for reform has

:46:16.:46:20.

been laughed at by the tax havens. The Leader of the Opposition quoted

:46:21.:46:23.

today that only this week after signing the new Deal and beneficial

:46:24.:46:28.

ownership, the Cayman Islands's premiere was celebrating a victory

:46:29.:46:32.

over the UK, saying this is what they wanted, this is what we have

:46:33.:46:37.

been pushing for for three years. The truth is the Government is

:46:38.:46:41.

playing into the hands of those who want to abuse the system. We need

:46:42.:46:49.

serious action on enforcement, we need not central registers but full

:46:50.:46:54.

public registers, accessible to all, including journalists and other

:46:55.:47:00.

businesses, if we're to court the activities expose any Panama Papers.

:47:01.:47:06.

This package of measures is the labour tax transparency and

:47:07.:47:08.

enforcement programme. We believe it was a sound basis to take the first

:47:09.:47:13.

necessary steps to invoice avoidance and opens up transparency. We want

:47:14.:47:16.

to see immediate effect of action unless this busy test of leadership.

:47:17.:47:21.

The leadership of the party opposite could take this opportunity to

:47:22.:47:25.

correct the series of errors it made and join us today and taking

:47:26.:47:29.

effective action and the four steps to series that dealing with

:47:30.:47:32.

avoidance. People want to see the party opposite that the steps

:47:33.:47:36.

otherwise they will rightfully stand accused of siding with the wrong

:47:37.:47:41.

people, rightfully stand accused of being the party of the tax

:47:42.:47:48.

avoidance. I recall not long ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared

:47:49.:47:52.

on television and I quote, give advice on pretty clever financial

:47:53.:47:56.

products as he describes them. That would allow the wealthy to dodge

:47:57.:48:03.

inheritance tax. Don't tempt me, Mr Speaker. Some Conservative backbench

:48:04.:48:12.

MPs believe tax avoidance is a sign of success. The Prime Minister

:48:13.:48:16.

himself as a direct beneficiary of the scheme set up an offshore tax

:48:17.:48:20.

haven through his private ownership of playable holding shares. The

:48:21.:48:24.

Panama leaks present a stark political choice. To be continued to

:48:25.:48:32.

allow a system of corruption and avoidance or now take action

:48:33.:48:36.

necessarily do is restore our tax system and correct the abuses of

:48:37.:48:40.

democracy? That the choice ahead of us and urged the Government and all

:48:41.:48:44.

members to join ayes not a new series programme of work to tackle

:48:45.:48:50.

the abuse of our system. The Government can make is that by

:48:51.:48:55.

supporting this motion today and I commend the demotion to the hosts.

:48:56.:49:01.

The question is as on the order paper. I call the Financial

:49:02.:49:08.

Secretary to the Treasury. It is a great pleasure for the second time

:49:09.:49:11.

this week the Government can inform the host what we have done and how

:49:12.:49:16.

much more we have done than the previous Government to tackle

:49:17.:49:20.

evasion, avoidance and aggressive tax planning and to be a world

:49:21.:49:24.

leader in tax transparency. Mr Speaker, and 2010 we had a situation

:49:25.:49:32.

where you could not fully find out who owned a company in the UK, the

:49:33.:49:36.

details of London property, if it was owned by a foreign company, and

:49:37.:49:42.

not only were the rules governing multinational companies out of date,

:49:43.:49:46.

allowing the tax base to be eroded, there was no attempt to bring these

:49:47.:49:51.

rules up to date, nor was there any sign of these matters were going to

:49:52.:49:58.

change. Loopholes, secrecy, concealment, those are the issues we

:49:59.:50:02.

are sorting out and threw not only what we're doing in the UK but

:50:03.:50:06.

through our firm and action overseas. I want to clarify the

:50:07.:50:15.

sentence he used. Can he now confront we come of the proposals

:50:16.:50:19.

put forward by him, the public will not have access to the register

:50:20.:50:23.

beneficial owners of other companies trusts. We will not have access. Let

:50:24.:50:29.

me tell him precisely what I just said. In 2010 we could not find out

:50:30.:50:35.

who really owns a company in the United Kingdom. From June we will be

:50:36.:50:40.

publishing a public register of beneficial ownership. What's more,

:50:41.:50:48.

HMRC could not find out who owns a company based in an overseas

:50:49.:50:53.

territory. As a consequence of the agreements we have reached this

:50:54.:50:57.

week, HMRC will be able to do just that. That is evidence of the

:50:58.:51:01.

progress made under this Government and was not the case under the

:51:02.:51:06.

previous Government. I'll give way to the honourable gentleman.

:51:07.:51:11.

We have had lots of honeyed words from the Government about how they

:51:12.:51:17.

are going to deal with this. Isn't that belied by the fact that they

:51:18.:51:22.

appointed somebody as the executive chair of HMRC who thinks that

:51:23.:51:25.

taxation is legalised extortion? Doesn't that demonstrate the

:51:26.:51:33.

attitude that is demonstrated in the organisation. It is unfortunate that

:51:34.:51:36.

the honourable gentleman seeks to smear a public servant who has

:51:37.:51:43.

served governments of both colours, let me make this point, let me make

:51:44.:51:49.

this point. This is somebody who has served governments of all colours,

:51:50.:51:55.

who I have to say I have worked with extensively over six years and who

:51:56.:51:59.

is determined and has been determined to do everything he can

:52:00.:52:04.

to ensure that our tax laws are properly enforced, and that we have

:52:05.:52:09.

tax laws that deal with avoidance and evasion. And I would suggest to

:52:10.:52:13.

anybody throwing around one line from an article written in 1999 that

:52:14.:52:18.

they looked at the entire article, because the argument that he makes

:52:19.:52:25.

in that article is to ensure that we properly address tax avoidance by

:52:26.:52:29.

ensuring that we get the law right. And I do feel that it is unfortunate

:52:30.:52:33.

when accusations are thrown around in this way, dedicated in partial

:52:34.:52:42.

public servants. I will give way. I am extremely grateful to my

:52:43.:52:44.

honourable friend and I would like to pay tribute to his work over

:52:45.:52:48.

several years in dealing with some of these issues. Would he also like

:52:49.:52:51.

to comment on the fact that we now face a situation in this country

:52:52.:52:55.

where we have the smallest ever on record gap between the tax owed and

:52:56.:52:59.

the tax paid, isn't that the real story about the efficiency of this

:53:00.:53:03.

Government in dealing with a collection of tax and also dealing

:53:04.:53:06.

with some of the difficulties that we have in the system? My honourable

:53:07.:53:12.

friend is right. The reality is that the tax gap as a percentage of the

:53:13.:53:18.

tax revenues has fallen very considerably over the course of the

:53:19.:53:25.

last, over the last six years. And that is testament to the effort put

:53:26.:53:31.

it not only by this Government but also by HMRC, and there are

:53:32.:53:33.

considerable challenges with bringing the tax gap down. There are

:53:34.:53:39.

a number of aspects of it, including tax evasion, tax avoidance,

:53:40.:53:44.

inadvertent error on the part of tax payers, which does happen from time

:53:45.:53:48.

to time, I'm sure all members of the House will recognise that. And we

:53:49.:53:53.

are determined to do what we can to improve and strengthen our systems,

:53:54.:53:57.

all of that, and I'm grateful for the opportunity today to make

:53:58.:54:02.

progress on that. I will give way. With the Minister just emphasise the

:54:03.:54:05.

point about the tax gap, one of the most relevant measures is not the

:54:06.:54:11.

general tax gap, it is the tax gap specifically for corporations paying

:54:12.:54:13.

Corporation Tax, and on that measure of the tax gap the tax gap was

:54:14.:54:18.

rising when the Government, when the Coalition Government came to power

:54:19.:54:21.

in 2010, and has fallen by almost 50% over the last X years. That is a

:54:22.:54:27.

major achievement, specifically for corporations. My honourable friend

:54:28.:54:33.

is right, but tax gap in the context of large companies and tax avoidance

:54:34.:54:42.

as a whole has full lunch -- fallen strongly. Let me take this

:54:43.:54:46.

opportunity to set out some of the steps. I will give way, but I stand

:54:47.:54:53.

by the point that he has, not for the first time, sought to attack an

:54:54.:54:57.

impartial, dedicated public servant who cannot answer back, and by

:54:58.:55:02.

selectively quoting an article written in 1999, and I have set out

:55:03.:55:10.

to the House the context of which that article was written where he is

:55:11.:55:13.

very clear that this is somebody who believes that the law should

:55:14.:55:19.

properly be forced and has a record over many years of doing precisely

:55:20.:55:25.

that. He accused of this swearing this individual when I was quoting

:55:26.:55:29.

word for word. It is only the jet eyes to the extent of the law --

:55:30.:55:34.

smearing. If you set the bar to load and fewer people will pay tax and be

:55:35.:55:39.

able to avoid it. -- too low. My point is that this Government's

:55:40.:55:44.

attitude towards tax avoidance is blacks, and their words of war

:55:45.:55:47.

honeyed than their actions. -- is lax. This Government year income a

:55:48.:55:55.

year out closes loopholes, this Government has led to the OECD work

:55:56.:56:00.

on base erosion and profit shifting. This Government has given all powers

:56:01.:56:05.

to HMRC, this Government has seen a significant fall in the tax gap,

:56:06.:56:09.

particularly in the context of avoidance, this Government has a

:56:10.:56:14.

proud record on dealing with tax avoidance and tax evasion and

:56:15.:56:17.

dealing with all abuses of the tax system. I will give way. Would he

:56:18.:56:22.

also consider that this is the Government who, by HMRC, has raised

:56:23.:56:28.

?2 billion since 2010 from offshore tax evasion. Does this not

:56:29.:56:31.

demonstrate that this Government ensures that tax should be paid and

:56:32.:56:38.

is paid. Absolutely right. Madam Deputy Speaker, I should make some

:56:39.:56:42.

progress, because this speech sets out what we have done and what we

:56:43.:56:47.

are continuing to do. I realise that the point at which I say I should

:56:48.:56:51.

make some progress, I look round House and everybody is standing up!

:56:52.:56:54.

I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I thank the Secretary for

:56:55.:57:00.

giving way. He made a reference to the record of this Government. This

:57:01.:57:06.

also includes the changes to the foreign companies rules which cost

:57:07.:57:11.

the Exchequer and more importantly cost the Exchequer of developing

:57:12.:57:14.

countries. The honourable gentleman and I have debated this issue on a

:57:15.:57:18.

number of occasions. The state of it number of occasions. The state of it

:57:19.:57:22.

when we came to office in 2010, it was outdated and it was driving

:57:23.:57:26.

businesses out of this country. Since the reforms we have

:57:27.:57:29.

undertaken, we have seen more businesses located in the UK, we

:57:30.:57:35.

have seen businesses locating their headquarters, their European

:57:36.:57:38.

headquarters in the UK, it has added to the attractive as a place to do

:57:39.:57:44.

business. As a place for developing countries, I have made this point

:57:45.:57:48.

before, the UK has been at the forefront of building the capacity

:57:49.:57:52.

of developing countries will two tax authorities to ensure that they are

:57:53.:57:55.

capable of collecting the tax that is due under their rules. I will

:57:56.:57:58.

give way then I must make some progress. Of course I welcome what

:57:59.:58:03.

the Government has done in tackling tax wouldn't sound evasion. When he

:58:04.:58:08.

says more could be done on tax avoidance, does he accept that this

:58:09.:58:11.

Government is playing catch up with looking up the comments by the

:58:12.:58:15.

former Labour Foreign Secretary Lord Chancellor, who said there was

:58:16.:58:18.

action which the Labour government could have done and taken on tax

:58:19.:58:21.

avoidance, but yet it was not done and we are now catching up with that

:58:22.:58:28.

deficit by the previous government. I think my honourable friend was

:58:29.:58:32.

right to draw the attention of the House to those remarks. We have done

:58:33.:58:35.

a great deal in terms of tax avoidance but there is always of

:58:36.:58:38.

course more to be done, and I will set out a bit about how they are

:58:39.:58:42.

doing that and working through the OECD and implement Inglot. The

:58:43.:58:45.

honourable gentleman says he wants to help me, I will then I will some

:58:46.:58:59.

progress. In this debate, can the Minister detail any schemes that

:59:00.:59:04.

have been identified since 2012 which can be classed either as

:59:05.:59:09.

morally repugnant or morally wrong? Both terms used by the Prime

:59:10.:59:14.

Minister and Chancellor in 2012 to point out what these schemes could

:59:15.:59:19.

be. Has any work being done on who they are, and going forward...

:59:20.:59:24.

Actually I think the honourable gentleman is being helpful. Not that

:59:25.:59:30.

I ever doubted that he was! The point I would make him is that where

:59:31.:59:37.

there is artificial, contrived behaviour, where there are schemes

:59:38.:59:40.

that are clearly contrary to the intention of Parliament, we need to

:59:41.:59:46.

take strong action. And we also I think are entitled to be critical of

:59:47.:59:51.

those involved in promoting those schemes. And actually, one of the

:59:52.:59:54.

things that we have done is brought in a regime whereby we can name and

:59:55.:59:59.

shame promoters of tax avoidance schemes that are clearly contrary to

:00:00.:00:07.

the intention of Parliament. I'm on page three, we are ten minutes in,

:00:08.:00:13.

but I will give way. If the members opposite want to be helpful perhaps

:00:14.:00:17.

they can speak to the unions, because Unison in 2011 and 2012 paid

:00:18.:00:23.

no Corporation Tax despite ?51.6 million worth of stocks and shares

:00:24.:00:27.

and generating an income of over ?5 million. I try to make it a rule not

:00:28.:00:34.

comment on the individual tax affairs of taxpayers. But for those

:00:35.:00:39.

who are happy to wading on those debates, it is up to them to answer

:00:40.:00:45.

those questions. Madam Deputy Speaker, HMRC is committed to

:00:46.:00:50.

exposing and acting on financial wrongdoing, their specialist

:00:51.:00:52.

offshore unit is currently investigating more than 1100 cases

:00:53.:00:56.

of offshore invasion around the world, with more than 19 individuals

:00:57.:01:01.

subject current criminal investigation. The motion before us

:01:02.:01:05.

calls for greater resource in from HMRC. That is why in the budget 2015

:01:06.:01:12.

we confirmed an extra ?800 million to fund additional work to tackle

:01:13.:01:17.

evasion and noncompliance by 2020-21. We have heard quite a lot

:01:18.:01:21.

today about HMRC resources and headcount. And I do have to say,

:01:22.:01:26.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I do have to concede that in terms of compliance

:01:27.:01:30.

and enforcement, there was a period of time where the numbers working

:01:31.:01:35.

within compliance and enforcement fell. I have two except that that is

:01:36.:01:43.

the case. That period was up to 2010. -- I have to accept. If we

:01:44.:01:48.

look at the way the numbers were in 2010 compared to today, the

:01:49.:01:51.

important and compliance numbers are higher than when the Prime Minister

:01:52.:01:56.

and Chancellor and myself took our respective positions. So there has

:01:57.:02:01.

been an increase. I accept that a lot of the HMRC work in terms of

:02:02.:02:06.

processing and self-assessment forms for example, much more of that has

:02:07.:02:10.

been automated, and the staff working in that area have reduced.

:02:11.:02:14.

In terms of compliance and enforcement, those numbers have

:02:15.:02:17.

actually increased over the last six years. I just want to make a little

:02:18.:02:23.

bit more progress. Even before last week, HMRC had already received a

:02:24.:02:28.

great deal of information of sore companies, including in Panama and

:02:29.:02:33.

including Mossack Fonseca. This information comes from wide range of

:02:34.:02:36.

sources and is currently the subject of intensive investigation. HMRC has

:02:37.:02:43.

asked the international Consortium of investigative journalist, the BBC

:02:44.:02:47.

and Guardian, share the data that they have received, it is clearly

:02:48.:02:50.

important to examine the data closely, that is why we are

:02:51.:02:54.

providing new funding of up to ten Liam pounds for a cross agency task

:02:55.:03:01.

force -- ?10 million. The analyser Panama Papers and take action on any

:03:02.:03:08.

This will include analysts and This will include analysts and

:03:09.:03:14.

investigators from across HMRC, the National Crime Agency, the Serious

:03:15.:03:17.

Fraud Office and Financial Conduct Authority. Between them, these

:03:18.:03:20.

agencies will have sophisticated technology, experts and resources,

:03:21.:03:24.

to tackle money laundering and tax evasion anywhere in the world. This

:03:25.:03:28.

task force will report to Mike right honourable friend the Chancellor by

:03:29.:03:35.

taking action, and we will update Parliament later this year. I stress

:03:36.:03:40.

the point, the task force will have total operational independence, if

:03:41.:03:43.

they find people to prosecute, they will prosecute them, if they find

:03:44.:03:47.

information of illegality they will act on it. In addition, the

:03:48.:03:51.

independent Financial Conduct Authority has written to financial

:03:52.:03:55.

firms asking them to declare their links to Mossack Fonseca. If the FCA

:03:56.:04:00.

were to find any evidence that firms had been breaking rules, it also has

:04:01.:04:05.

strong powers to take punitive action. He mentioned a moment ago

:04:06.:04:13.

last year's Budget, the ?800 million figure being identified for

:04:14.:04:17.

noncompliance issues. But I understand from his answer to a

:04:18.:04:23.

written question, ?266 million has been allocated to specifically

:04:24.:04:26.

address tax fraud. How much of that will be spent on tax evasion? Well,

:04:27.:04:37.

the reality is the vast majority of the additional money that we have

:04:38.:04:41.

put into compliance, both the ?800 million that was announced last

:04:42.:04:44.

year, the ?1 billion that was announced in the last Parliament, is

:04:45.:04:48.

going to dealing with tax evasion. All of it is going into compliance,

:04:49.:04:52.

which is, you know, the areas of tax evasion, and tax avoidance, in its

:04:53.:04:57.

broadest points. I'm happy to let the honourable lady have details of

:04:58.:05:04.

the precise numbers, and I will happily write to her on that

:05:05.:05:08.

subject. This is money that is going into compliance, exactly to deal

:05:09.:05:12.

with these areas. It is an area that we have taken very seriously, an

:05:13.:05:16.

area that is going to raise substantial sums for us over the

:05:17.:05:19.

course of this Parliament, and we are proud of the record of what we

:05:20.:05:25.

have done here. Now, in terms of, HMRC resources, I will take that

:05:26.:05:29.

intervention. I thank him for giving way. Can he first of all confirmed

:05:30.:05:34.

that in terms of headcount, there are 14,000 less staff in HMRC now

:05:35.:05:38.

than there were in 2010. Secondly, can he informed the House of whether

:05:39.:05:43.

there are any HMRC staff at the moment you have a compulsory

:05:44.:05:47.

redundancy notice? I make no secret of the fact that HMRC is a smaller

:05:48.:05:51.

organisation than it was in 2010 in terms of headcount. The reason why

:05:52.:05:58.

is that there are capabilities of finding efficiency savings in an

:05:59.:06:01.

organisation that devotes a number of staff to processing pieces of

:06:02.:06:05.

paper where we are moving towards a more digital world, where we can

:06:06.:06:09.

make greater use of technology. In terms of the area which I think is

:06:10.:06:12.

relevant today, and is the concern of the House, the concern is

:06:13.:06:18.

insuring that HMRC have got the resources to deal with tax evasion

:06:19.:06:23.

and also tax avoidance. And in that area, I don't think headcount is the

:06:24.:06:27.

be all and end all of these matters, it is what you get out not what you

:06:28.:06:31.

put in. As it happens, the numbers have gone up. Under this government

:06:32.:06:36.

in terms of the number of people who are dealing with enforcement and

:06:37.:06:39.

compliance, that is a point that sometimes seems to be missed from

:06:40.:06:40.

this debate. In a globalised world international

:06:41.:06:51.

action is vital to stop cross-border tax avoidance and evasion. The UK

:06:52.:06:55.

Government can be proud of having done more than any other country to

:06:56.:07:01.

stop these practices. In terms of avoidance we have already

:07:02.:07:05.

implemented the recommendations for country by country reporting to

:07:06.:07:08.

improve transparency between businesses and tax authorities and

:07:09.:07:13.

advocated for public country by country reporting on a multilateral

:07:14.:07:18.

basis. The commission's proposals for country by country reporting are

:07:19.:07:22.

expecting the right direction towards a new international rules

:07:23.:07:26.

for greater public transparency however we must consider the details

:07:27.:07:28.

of the proposal including how the reporting is done and how the

:07:29.:07:34.

information is broken now. In terms of transparency in the context of a

:07:35.:07:38.

vision, which is a key point here, we will be the first major country

:07:39.:07:45.

to publish a register of company beneficial ownership, free for

:07:46.:07:48.

anyone to access allowing everyone to see who owns what company. My

:07:49.:07:51.

right honourable friend the Prime Minister made it the variety to use

:07:52.:07:57.

our G8 presidency to set a new global standard for tax

:07:58.:08:03.

transparency. As a result 129 jurisdictions have accepted to

:08:04.:08:06.

implementing the international standards for tax information on

:08:07.:08:11.

request and 95 jurisdictions have committed to accepting the global

:08:12.:08:16.

reporting standards on tax transparency. That is a huge

:08:17.:08:20.

breakthrough. Six years ago no one believed we would get to that

:08:21.:08:23.

position. I am delighted we have done so. This is a step towards

:08:24.:08:31.

transparency. With the Financial Secretary, on the fact that to

:08:32.:08:36.

emphasise that point, none of our major international economic

:08:37.:08:41.

competitors have agreed so far to have a public register of beneficial

:08:42.:08:46.

ownership, and in fact, the state of Delaware in which 90% of US public

:08:47.:08:51.

companies are listed, have said they have no intention of implementing

:08:52.:08:56.

this. We are leading the world and living our major competitors.

:08:57.:09:04.

She is all right. He is absolutely right to raise that point and I will

:09:05.:09:08.

turn to that subject in a moment in terms of the public register. It

:09:09.:09:15.

makes considerable process to get central registers and that is

:09:16.:09:19.

something we have pushed for and I am pleased overseas territories and

:09:20.:09:22.

Crown dependencies have agreed to sign up to that. The Prime Minister

:09:23.:09:30.

stated the registers that the overseas territories will provide

:09:31.:09:34.

will be available to tax authorities here, but as this debate has

:09:35.:09:38.

highlighted it is a global problem, so will will registers be shared

:09:39.:09:43.

with other tax enforcement agencies globally, so they can ensure tax is

:09:44.:09:47.

not being avoided from other countries? He raises an important

:09:48.:09:50.

point and I think there is scope of going further on that point. What we

:09:51.:09:55.

have agreed it is surely we have access to those central registers,

:09:56.:10:00.

that is clearly very helpful, but I think there is more progress that

:10:01.:10:06.

can be made in terms of that and that is something to turn to in the

:10:07.:10:16.

future. I must say, in terms of the International standards, it is the

:10:17.:10:19.

case Panama is one of the very few financial centres but has not yet

:10:20.:10:24.

fully committed to the standards. We are clear it should do so and

:10:25.:10:30.

continue to press for Panama to join the club of responsible nations.

:10:31.:10:33.

There is more international work to be done, in particular on

:10:34.:10:37.

money-laundering, which is why we are hosting an anti-corruption

:10:38.:10:41.

Summit in me to encourage concessions on publishing

:10:42.:10:46.

information and putting it into the public domain, as we are doing in

:10:47.:10:52.

the UK. Once again, Britain is leading the world on transparency,

:10:53.:10:54.

accountability and responsibility. I am conscious I have a few important

:10:55.:11:02.

points I want to say. Can I just addressed the subject of the UK's

:11:03.:11:07.

Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories? Reform of the regimes

:11:08.:11:11.

of the overseas territories and Crown dependencies has been a key

:11:12.:11:16.

objective and reforms have been considerable. All Crown Dependencies

:11:17.:11:19.

and Overseas Territories with financial centres are early adopters

:11:20.:11:23.

of the common reporting standards, reporting annually from 2017. The

:11:24.:11:30.

Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories will also share

:11:31.:11:32.

information with the UK from this year, one year earlier than the rest

:11:33.:11:38.

of the world. All UK Crown Dependencies and Overseas

:11:39.:11:39.

Territories with financial centres are committed to a balancing company

:11:40.:11:44.

ownership. The Prime Minister announced last Monday our overseas

:11:45.:11:47.

territories and Crown dependencies and agreed to provide Lukey

:11:48.:11:53.

law-enforcement and tax agencies with full information on company

:11:54.:11:59.

ownership. For the first time UK police and law enforcement agencies

:12:00.:12:02.

will be able to see exactly who owns and controls every company

:12:03.:12:05.

incorporated in those territories. This is a major step forward in

:12:06.:12:10.

transparency, a result of the Government's sustained work in this

:12:11.:12:15.

area. It is rightly expect these overseas territories and Crown

:12:16.:12:19.

dependencies to meet international standards, and indeed they do. Yes,

:12:20.:12:23.

we want them to move towards a public register but that is not yet

:12:24.:12:29.

the international standard. If, as the Leader of the Opposition

:12:30.:12:31.

suggest, every former colony that does not have the public register

:12:32.:12:36.

should be recolonised, we would be begin? Is he proposing we invade

:12:37.:12:45.

Delaware? LAUGHTER

:12:46.:12:54.

The reality is, and this is the point right honourable friend was

:12:55.:12:59.

right to raise, the UK is in favour of a public register, we are

:13:00.:13:03.

implementing this in June, for the first time.

:13:04.:13:08.

We want other countries to do so as well but it is the case at the very

:13:09.:13:12.

few of our European union colleagues do it. It is not the case that the

:13:13.:13:18.

USA does it, we want to ensure it becomes the new international

:13:19.:13:24.

standard, but in terms of orders of Council, condemning overseas

:13:25.:13:28.

territories for failing to do what most of our EU colleagues do, I

:13:29.:13:33.

don't think would be particularly fair or, for that matter, effective.

:13:34.:13:38.

Our approach has brought the overseas territories and Crown

:13:39.:13:42.

dependencies a long way and I do to the approach advocated by the Labour

:13:43.:13:48.

Party would fail to work. Alex are more progress. -- I'll make some

:13:49.:13:56.

more progress. As well as leading international action we have ensured

:13:57.:14:01.

domestically our region is balls off and transparent. We have invested

:14:02.:14:06.

more than ?1.8 billion in HMRC since 2010 to tackle avoidance and

:14:07.:14:13.

noncompliance. The extra funding we announced in the summer budget 2015

:14:14.:14:19.

will allow HMI seek to recover a cumulative ?7.2 billion in tax of

:14:20.:14:25.

the next five years. -- allow HMRC. Also tripling the number of criminal

:14:26.:14:30.

investigations about complex tax train it can handle. We closed our

:14:31.:14:35.

existing loopholes and introducing major reforms in the UK tax system,

:14:36.:14:41.

raising ?12 million. Increased penalties, new offences, all the

:14:42.:14:44.

polls close, new measures, more money raised. It does not stop

:14:45.:14:49.

there. In this parliament we have already announced 25 measures from

:14:50.:14:53.

legislation to tackle avoidance, evasion and address of planning and

:14:54.:15:00.

these measures are forecast to raise ?16 billion by 2020-20 one. This

:15:01.:15:04.

week we also honoured with the bungalow and frustration before the

:15:05.:15:07.

house to make it a crime when corporations failed to present their

:15:08.:15:13.

representatives from criminally facilitating tax evasion. This goes

:15:14.:15:16.

further than any other country has gone and holding corporations to

:15:17.:15:20.

account for criminal wrongdoing and will apply to both UK and overseas

:15:21.:15:25.

corporations and set a new standard for corporate responsibility and

:15:26.:15:28.

accountability. I'm sure all sides of the house will be supportive of

:15:29.:15:32.

any measures as they go through. What a contrast to the 13 years of

:15:33.:15:39.

the last Labour Government. This week they wrap up the rhetoric but

:15:40.:15:44.

it was not on our watch the private equity managers have lower rates of

:15:45.:15:49.

tax band nor was that under our watch the food avoid stamp duty or

:15:50.:15:55.

disguise their remuneration as loans that were never repaid. Just some of

:15:56.:16:02.

the loopholes left open by Labour that we have been busy closing ever

:16:03.:16:07.

since. I would make this point about the approach of the Labour Party in

:16:08.:16:12.

the last week. Yes, taxes should be paid in accordance with the law and

:16:13.:16:15.

intentions of Parliament and we should take action against those who

:16:16.:16:19.

fail to do so. We on the site of the house hold that view. Too often in

:16:20.:16:25.

the past week, the party opposite had appeared to be motivated by

:16:26.:16:29.

something else. That's something else is hostility to the wealthy.

:16:30.:16:38.

Not for dodging taxes, Madam Deputy Speaker, but just for being wealthy.

:16:39.:16:44.

For being successful, for earning money and wanting to pass it their

:16:45.:16:49.

children. For doing things that millions of people aspire to do.

:16:50.:16:58.

Thanks to the actions of this Government, action we have taken

:16:59.:17:05.

domestically and overseas, we're changing tax transparency and

:17:06.:17:08.

putting an end to offshore tax evasion. This is strong and firm

:17:09.:17:12.

action from a Government committed to ensuring every penny of tax that

:17:13.:17:18.

is owed is paid. I urge the house to reject emotion" of us. Can I make a

:17:19.:17:26.

number of small observations on what we have heard so far. And gently say

:17:27.:17:31.

to the Minister, who I like, success is not merely measured in monetary

:17:32.:17:37.

terms, there are many successful people who will forego stashing cash

:17:38.:17:45.

in the attic or the bank, or indeed the offshore tax haven. The second

:17:46.:17:49.

think on, can I say in terms of HMRC, we have no problem with

:17:50.:17:55.

efficiency, organisations being fit for purpose, no qualms about real,

:17:56.:18:04.

genuine ways being eroded. But with 17 out of 18 tax rises being closed

:18:05.:18:08.

and only one being reopened and the argument that was somehow deliver

:18:09.:18:14.

more for what is substantially less. I also say in terms of the Shadow

:18:15.:18:18.

Chancellor, he spoke of wealth inequality rising to the level we

:18:19.:18:29.

haven't seen since the... I would not put the Prime Minister into the

:18:30.:18:33.

category of the super rich like the Rockefellers. One of the things we

:18:34.:18:36.

do know is the Prime Minister has the open up about is he bought

:18:37.:18:41.

shares, as he described it, any class fund as part of Blair Holdings

:18:42.:18:46.

and sold them at some years later. Episode that, because he did nothing

:18:47.:18:53.

at all illegal, it bright light onto a very murky corner of tax havens.

:18:54.:18:59.

One thing that gets straight meat he the stock in 1997 and sold it in

:19:00.:19:09.

2010. Those dates were familiar to me. It was the entire duration of

:19:10.:19:15.

Blair and Brown and new Labour, and in terms of the underlying issue

:19:16.:19:18.

which I note the Shadow Chancellor is genuinely concerned about, many

:19:19.:19:27.

of the pointy minister made at the end, the Labour Party did precisely

:19:28.:19:30.

nothing about this for 13 years and am glad this is now on the agenda

:19:31.:19:38.

and on it any proper and cogent way. My friend back for Kirkcaldy and

:19:39.:19:41.

Cowdenbeath made a number of points during his speech during the second

:19:42.:19:47.

reading of the Finance Bill on Monday in this area. He said, you

:19:48.:19:52.

cannot build economic success on the back of social injustice. He said,

:19:53.:19:57.

quoting Adam Smith, no society can be flourishing and happy of which

:19:58.:20:00.

the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable. He argued

:20:01.:20:04.

creating such division does not bring progress and went on to

:20:05.:20:09.

describe how much of this division is characterised today with people

:20:10.:20:15.

in certain quarters being able to park large sums of money and wealth

:20:16.:20:19.

offshore and the vast majority of the rest being unable to do that. He

:20:20.:20:27.

suggested, according to Jason from the London School of economics, tax

:20:28.:20:34.

havens or 16 of the world's total private wealth. Some estimates put

:20:35.:20:40.

that aside $32 trillion. CNN described at around 6% of global

:20:41.:20:46.

total GDP. I think we can probably all agree because somewhere in the

:20:47.:20:55.

sweaty trillion dollar mark. Just ?15 UK GDP offshore in tax havens.

:20:56.:21:05.

-- the $20 trillion mark. That criminals can hide from the relevant

:21:06.:21:09.

tax authorities and the revelations in the document any pat papers from

:21:10.:21:15.

Mossack Fonseca up at the set of the iceberg. It means there are three

:21:16.:21:23.

larger farms providing these services and panorama and hundreds

:21:24.:21:28.

of smaller forms and it is not simply in Panama will stop Panama

:21:29.:21:32.

does not even make it into the top ten tax havens. We are purpose and I

:21:33.:21:39.

don't think it has changed yet, notwithstanding the measures the

:21:40.:21:43.

Government announced, UK and overseas Territories collectively

:21:44.:21:49.

are number one, outstripping even Switzerland by some margin. Concerns

:21:50.:21:52.

of the overseas territories it is worth reminding ourselves that at

:21:53.:21:58.

this angle address in the Cayman Islands there are 19,000 registered

:21:59.:22:04.

businesses. I am certain some of those businesses will be legal, but

:22:05.:22:09.

many will not be. Many will be companies was a beneficial owners

:22:10.:22:12.

remain hidden from the tax authorities there, here or

:22:13.:22:16.

elsewhere. It means income that should be the income taxation will

:22:17.:22:20.

go untaxed to the detriment of public services here and elsewhere.

:22:21.:22:27.

We have in essence an international system of finance which enables tax

:22:28.:22:35.

avoidance on an industrial scale. A system which hides from scrutiny the

:22:36.:22:41.

owners of vast wealth from the ordinary -- when the ordinary man

:22:42.:22:45.

and woman in the street does not have that luxury. They pay their

:22:46.:22:49.

fair share. They simply want others to do the same. What makes it most

:22:50.:22:55.

unfair, and I think why people are so angry, is that when assets and

:22:56.:23:00.

income are hidden and go untaxed, we all suffer as the resources we need

:23:01.:23:07.

are reduced and squeezed. But it is also the case that much of the tax

:23:08.:23:13.

stashed in tax havens is looted from developing countries. This is not

:23:14.:23:20.

simply an issue for the West. It is a matter of fundamental importance

:23:21.:23:22.

for those economies and countries who frankly our even more in need of

:23:23.:23:29.

tax receipts, which are effectively stolen from them and parking tax

:23:30.:23:33.

havens around the world. That is why part of the solution must involve a

:23:34.:23:38.

global agreement to ensure tax authorities and others can follow

:23:39.:23:44.

the money. The question from my honourable friend is absolutely

:23:45.:23:48.

right. We are moving to have data shared between the Crown

:23:49.:23:52.

Dependencies in overseas territories to law enforcement and the tax

:23:53.:23:55.

authorities. We think they should be public. It should also be shared

:23:56.:24:02.

elsewhere. I hope miscreants are identified by the revenue and the

:24:03.:24:06.

police here. There will be a very swift phone call to the authorities

:24:07.:24:11.

elsewhere so their authorities can also follow the money.

:24:12.:24:23.

China has ?44 billion invested in tax havens in the Cayman Islands,

:24:24.:24:28.

and 49 billion in the British urgent territory. Isn't it significant that

:24:29.:24:35.

one of the reasons the government does not want to act against these

:24:36.:24:39.

tax havens, is because they have ingratiated themselves with the

:24:40.:24:43.

Chinese, who are busy destroying our steel industry Chumak --? I suspect

:24:44.:24:53.

the Chinese authorities will be as interested in that $93 billion as

:24:54.:24:59.

much as we are. I do suspect much of that is not there, how shall I put

:25:00.:25:03.

this gently, officially. They have as big a problem with money being

:25:04.:25:08.

fleeced from their system as we do and other countries do. One of the

:25:09.:25:13.

other issues raised by my honourable friends was the question of where

:25:14.:25:19.

the money actually is and how it is set to work for its beneficiaries.

:25:20.:25:24.

As we know, the cash funds do not actually sit in the Cayman Islands

:25:25.:25:29.

or the Bahamas. One of the biggest centres for the cash is London.

:25:30.:25:36.

Hundreds, indeed thousands of very expensive properties in London

:25:37.:25:40.

bought by people not known. We have called for a radical reform to

:25:41.:25:47.

address tax avoidance, and criminality, and to deliver fairness

:25:48.:25:50.

across the board so the very wealthy pay the tax they are due in

:25:51.:25:55.

precisely the same way as those on more modest earnings. The starting

:25:56.:26:02.

point for paying tax in this country is the revenue knowing who precisely

:26:03.:26:06.

owns what assets and what income is derived from them. That does mean a

:26:07.:26:12.

public register of beneficial ownership of companies. But not just

:26:13.:26:16.

a public register of UK companies. A public register of beneficial

:26:17.:26:22.

ownership from the Crown Dependencies and the overseas

:26:23.:26:26.

territories as well. Precisely so nobody can hide assets through a

:26:27.:26:33.

structure of a company registered in an overseas territory registered by

:26:34.:26:37.

a Panamanian lawyer, while the money comes swiftly to a bank account in

:26:38.:26:41.

London and is part in a multi-million pound mansion in

:26:42.:26:44.

Mayfair through an anonymous shell company. It also means taking

:26:45.:26:53.

serious action on trusts. Madine Deputy Speaker, the argument the

:26:54.:26:58.

Prime Minister were used was -- was that he would not have got the

:26:59.:27:02.

agreement he had if trusts had been included. He has argued, possibly

:27:03.:27:06.

correctly, that these trusts were set up to allow investors to invest

:27:07.:27:12.

in dollar denominated stock. But times have changed. A cursory look

:27:13.:27:19.

at the stock exchange website this morning brings a frequently asked

:27:20.:27:26.

questions page. Question is, can a company trade in currencies other

:27:27.:27:33.

than sterling? The answer, yes. Your shares can be denominated and traded

:27:34.:27:36.

in any freely available currency you use. The stock exchange... The old

:27:37.:27:48.

arguments that these structures are required for non-Sterling trades are

:27:49.:27:53.

investment are now simply wrong. As my honourable friend put it, when

:27:54.:27:59.

the Prime Minister row may have been right some years ago, he is wrong

:28:00.:28:04.

now. Public opinion has changed dramatically. That brings me to what

:28:05.:28:09.

else the Prime Minister row actually said on Monday. He said he has

:28:10.:28:14.

published all of the information on tax returns for the last six years,

:28:15.:28:19.

he has provided details of money from his family, other sources of

:28:20.:28:23.

income and his salary. He dealt specifically with the shares his

:28:24.:28:27.

wife and he held in Blairmore Holdings, set up by his late father.

:28:28.:28:33.

And that was precisely the right thing to do. But all of that in a

:28:34.:28:38.

sense is irrelevant because it did not actually address the fundamental

:28:39.:28:44.

issue of individuals holding assets to oversee shell companies and being

:28:45.:28:47.

able to hide those and their income from the taxman. Also, what he said

:28:48.:28:54.

about the Panama papers, and in describing the action is his

:28:55.:28:56.

government were taking in dealing with tax evasion, tax avoidance and

:28:57.:29:03.

international corruption, more broadly, was that they have put an

:29:04.:29:08.

end to rich homeowners getting away without paying stamp duty because

:29:09.:29:12.

their houses were antelope within companies. They have made 40 changes

:29:13.:29:19.

to close loopholes. And in June of this year, the UK will become the

:29:20.:29:26.

first country in the G20 to have a public register of beneficial

:29:27.:29:29.

ownership so everyone can see who really owns and controls each

:29:30.:29:39.

company. All of this is to be welcomed. What we are saying is, we

:29:40.:29:44.

actually need to go further. It will not simply be enough for the police

:29:45.:29:49.

and the tax authorities to see beneficial ownership of companies

:29:50.:29:56.

registered in Crown dependencies. The citizens of these countries and

:29:57.:30:00.

ours must be able to see who precisely owns and benefits from

:30:01.:30:06.

what. And also, why we welcome the publication of beneficial ownership

:30:07.:30:10.

of companies in the UK, I would ask the government to ensure sufficient

:30:11.:30:14.

resources are dedicated to HMRC to forensically scrutinise the sources

:30:15.:30:18.

of income many of them have, to ensure they are illegal and the tax

:30:19.:30:26.

is due, and to pass on as quickly as possible details of any miscreants

:30:27.:30:31.

to the authorities suspected of looting cash from other countries.

:30:32.:30:37.

Madame Deputy Speaker, I am delighted this subject is now under

:30:38.:30:41.

real scrutiny. I am also delighted that we have gone wide. Oxfam give

:30:42.:30:56.

encouragement. They say the UK is especially well placed to show

:30:57.:31:01.

leadership here because it controls or directly influence is by far the

:31:02.:31:05.

largest networks of tax havens in the world. It comes from the Crown

:31:06.:31:10.

Dependencies, overseas territories and centred on the city of London.

:31:11.:31:15.

It is estimated nearly a quarter of global financial services provided

:31:16.:31:18.

to nonresidents within a jurisdiction take place. Taken

:31:19.:31:24.

together, this entire UK entity would be at the top of the tax

:31:25.:31:31.

Justice network 's financial secrecy index. That is not something we

:31:32.:31:36.

should be proud of. They go on to talk about the opportunity this

:31:37.:31:39.

government has. They say success in the area of tackling corruption, tax

:31:40.:31:45.

evasion, could be transformative, not just in terms of our revenue,

:31:46.:31:50.

but in the fight against global poverty and inequality. For the SNP

:31:51.:31:59.

that is as important. I will say one thing to the Minister and the

:32:00.:32:03.

government. The cat is out of the bag on this one. It is not just

:32:04.:32:09.

Mossack Fonseca. This is the tip of the iceberg. The public will not

:32:10.:32:12.

allow this matter to be quietly swept under the carpet again.

:32:13.:32:20.

Kevin Foster. Thank you. It is a pleasure to follow the member for

:32:21.:32:24.

Dundee East. While there are probably some things we disagree on,

:32:25.:32:28.

there are a couple of things we agree on. It is very welcome we are

:32:29.:32:33.

having this debate today. The second is the fear that the next tax haven

:32:34.:32:40.

to be listed might be England, if the Scottish Labour Party got their

:32:41.:32:45.

way after the elections this May and raised tax rates in Scotland for

:32:46.:32:48.

those people compared to what they would be paying south of the border.

:32:49.:32:54.

I certainly welcome this debate. As a member of the Public Accounts

:32:55.:32:56.

Committee it is all was good to be of the Commons -- it is certainly

:32:57.:33:07.

good. The opposition referred to tax early partly as a donation. I can

:33:08.:33:18.

understand why they said that. A tax is actually a legal requirement to

:33:19.:33:23.

pay something. It is not a donation or an act of charity. But as a

:33:24.:33:28.

member of the Public Accounts Committee, who also sat on the

:33:29.:33:33.

enquiry into perhaps one of the case -- cases that has helped to prompt

:33:34.:33:40.

this debate, that of Google. We focused a lot of time mentioning

:33:41.:33:43.

some of the offshore locations. In that instance we were getting

:33:44.:33:47.

references to the double Irish and the Dutch sandwich, which had helped

:33:48.:33:56.

produce their tax liability. Both jurisdictions are members of the EU.

:33:57.:34:02.

When we are working across the world in terms of trying to deal with tax

:34:03.:34:07.

evasion and avoidance, we must also make sure that other nation states

:34:08.:34:10.

have the focus of attention they deserve.

:34:11.:34:14.

There is quite a lot of chattering going on. I am finding it quite

:34:15.:34:20.

difficult to hear Kevin Foster. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We

:34:21.:34:26.

were very clear that we felt HMRC should be trying to lead a debate

:34:27.:34:34.

about openness. In that instance, it was about the revenues and the

:34:35.:34:38.

discussion, the information that was there with HMRC. It is easy to

:34:39.:34:43.

grandstand in a debate like this. But it is important we have they

:34:44.:34:48.

considered debate, not a knee jerk reaction, to what information is

:34:49.:34:51.

available public. There cannot be specific rules for individual

:34:52.:34:55.

companies. Do we have a change in our general principle of not

:34:56.:35:02.

discussing individual taxpayer data? That has some pitfalls as well as

:35:03.:35:06.

potential benefit -- benefits. The Google issue was one we felt HMRC

:35:07.:35:16.

could be leading a debate on. It was in our report whether that deal was

:35:17.:35:22.

the best deal that could be done. It is worth noting it was based on

:35:23.:35:27.

previous tax rules, not today's tax rules. Effectively we were having a

:35:28.:35:34.

debate on things as they existed several years ago, in some instances

:35:35.:35:40.

11 years back, and also on laws that have no in many cases moved on and

:35:41.:35:46.

changed. What came out of that discussion is looking more widely at

:35:47.:35:51.

HMRC's performance, which we regularly do as a committee. It is

:35:52.:35:54.

encouraging to see some of the figures published around the

:35:55.:36:02.

reduction in the tax gap. It has gone from 14% to 7%. That is

:36:03.:36:08.

welcome. There is more we can do to drive down that extra 7% but it is

:36:09.:36:12.

far better to be talking about 7% than 14%. As has been referred to in

:36:13.:36:18.

exchange is already in this debate, the tax haven where a hedge fund

:36:19.:36:25.

manager can pay a lower percentage rate than the person cleaning their

:36:26.:36:31.

office, was the UK six years ago. Tackling that was, I have always

:36:32.:36:36.

felt, was one of the best things ever done on the previous comment.

:36:37.:36:46.

Someone could be paying a small percentage rate on a very

:36:47.:36:49.

substantial income, a lower rate than the person earning the minimum

:36:50.:36:50.

wage. Moving on to the Crown dependencies,

:36:51.:37:04.

I think there is a number of things I welcome in terms of having the

:37:05.:37:11.

ability for HMRC to get and share information. I agree that we should

:37:12.:37:20.

be as diligent in handing over to tax authorities in developing

:37:21.:37:28.

countries as we are to looking to enforce our own tax. I suspect were

:37:29.:37:34.

always be a debate regarding oppressive regimes, but where the

:37:35.:37:42.

line is about avoiding taxation, we should be prepared to cooperate,

:37:43.:37:45.

providing there are assurances regarding standards of criminal

:37:46.:37:52.

justice systems. In terms of looking at how as a government we engage

:37:53.:37:58.

with those authorities, it is worth bearing in mind some of these

:37:59.:38:03.

regulations are very complex areas. Perhaps there is an issue to be

:38:04.:38:07.

debated that currently reappoint governors effectively acting as the

:38:08.:38:11.

head of state for three years with the term extended bolt to four.

:38:12.:38:16.

Perhaps that is a debate we had office Office colleagues about

:38:17.:38:20.

whether there should be a longer period of appointment to allow the

:38:21.:38:26.

government to hold a relationship with authorities in that alia. And

:38:27.:38:32.

to be able to more engage and give difficult messages on behalf of the

:38:33.:38:36.

UK overall than perhaps a three-year term allows. Governor does not go

:38:37.:38:43.

round in a feathered hat getting saluted, it should be about being

:38:44.:38:48.

part of a strong and lasting wand between the UK and those

:38:49.:38:56.

territories. Looking for support in terms of defence and overseas

:38:57.:38:58.

development, but also his relationship really can

:38:59.:39:16.

discuss issues on which the sovereign but affects us as a whole

:39:17.:39:21.

nation. This is a global problem. Panama is one of the few countries

:39:22.:39:25.

not to have signed up to some of the international agreements. That is

:39:26.:39:33.

one of the key issues here. It should be done as part of a proper

:39:34.:39:40.

debate globally, rather than picking off individual jurisdictions. If we

:39:41.:39:45.

do, people will find the next jurisdiction that is not honouring

:39:46.:39:50.

transparency. For me, this needs to be a wider debate. There needs to be

:39:51.:39:59.

clarity about which types of investments, many people use

:40:00.:40:09.

legitimate and lawful unit trusts and pay their taxes, but at the same

:40:10.:40:15.

time opening the envelope on those shell companies being used as a way

:40:16.:40:22.

of hiding who owns something, so we can have that information and ensure

:40:23.:40:29.

HMRC can get the tax due. In terms of contributing to this debate, I

:40:30.:40:33.

was slightly disappointed in the opening things seem to focus on

:40:34.:40:39.

party political attack than the dead on a measured debate around how we

:40:40.:40:43.

ensure taxes legislated for by this Parliament. In reading the motion, I

:40:44.:40:50.

thought it was strange that was not reference to the recent Public

:40:51.:40:56.

Accounts Committee report regarding the Google taxation Bill. Likewise,

:40:57.:41:17.

the tax transparency Bill. For me, it is welcome we have had a debate

:41:18.:41:21.

today. It is safe to say all of us recognise that there's more work to

:41:22.:41:24.

be done to try capture those revenues that escape all taxation

:41:25.:41:30.

end all good restrictions. And the role we can play in the UK in

:41:31.:41:36.

building up developing nations to crackdown on tax avoidance that

:41:37.:41:40.

costs them even more than it does cost us. I welcome this debate. This

:41:41.:41:46.

is ultimately about ensuring tax rate set here that we believe are

:41:47.:41:51.

there are tax rates that are paid. That is where the nub of this debate

:41:52.:41:59.

comes and future work should focus. Can I just say there are 11 members

:42:00.:42:04.

still wishing to speak. We want to start the wind-up at 3:30pm. If

:42:05.:42:10.

everybody takes eight minutes or less, you will all get in. As

:42:11.:42:19.

co-founder and chair of the all-party group on anti-corruption,

:42:20.:42:22.

I'm pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. These

:42:23.:42:30.

issues are rightly high on the public agenda. Constituents have

:42:31.:42:33.

contacted me to share concerns. They like many others have a strong sense

:42:34.:42:38.

of the real and the perceived injustice in our system that means

:42:39.:42:43.

the vast majority of people in this country play by the same rules and

:42:44.:42:46.

have very little choice about the contribution they make to the public

:42:47.:42:58.

purse. It is not about anger or envy. It is about those at the top

:42:59.:43:09.

of the income skill who appeared to play by a different set of rules.

:43:10.:43:14.

Government must take steps to re-level the playing field. One

:43:15.:43:20.

assertion that has been made to me is that the solutions are easy. Will

:43:21.:43:24.

I don't necessarily subscribe to that view, I think there are a few

:43:25.:43:28.

relatively simple steps the government could take that will make

:43:29.:43:31.

a significant difference. That would bring about much greater

:43:32.:43:35.

transparency on the ownership of individuals and companies assets at

:43:36.:43:42.

wealth, to enable a clear view about who the beneficiaries are and funds,

:43:43.:43:49.

whether they are held here in the UK or in offshore trusts and accounts.

:43:50.:44:02.

Tax evasion and other criminal activity such as fraud and

:44:03.:44:07.

corruption should be looked at. Too often they go hand in hand. The

:44:08.:44:11.

Prime Minister acknowledged in his statement on Monday on the Panama

:44:12.:44:15.

papers that under current legislation it is difficult to

:44:16.:44:20.

prosecute companies that assist with tax evasion. He is correct. The

:44:21.:44:26.

challenges understated. I will briefly explain why. At present,

:44:27.:44:32.

under UK law, in order to hold a company criminally liable,

:44:33.:44:39.

prosecutors must identify a senior official as the controlling mind of

:44:40.:44:42.

that company, with knowledge of the offence. In an increasingly

:44:43.:44:48.

globalised world where multinational organisations have very complicated

:44:49.:44:54.

structures and management arrangements, it sets an extremely

:44:55.:45:00.

high arc for prosecutors to cross. It contrasts with the situation in

:45:01.:45:05.

the US were a company can be held liable increment the law for the

:45:06.:45:08.

actions of its employees undertaken in the course of their employment.

:45:09.:45:13.

The government seem to acknowledge this inadequacy in the UK law and

:45:14.:45:19.

included puzzles and 2015 manifesto to introduce corporate criminal

:45:20.:45:22.

liability for economic offences. But by September 2015 these proposals

:45:23.:45:29.

were quietly dropped. Only coming to light in a written parliamentary

:45:30.:45:33.

answer. The grounds stated by the Mr were that there is little evidence

:45:34.:45:41.

that economic crime is going unpunished. It is frankly ridiculous

:45:42.:45:45.

assertion. I hope the Panama papers have finally put that notion to bed.

:45:46.:46:02.

It is coolly unacceptable that people are effectively operating

:46:03.:46:04.

with one hand tied behind their back. The inadequacy of our law has

:46:05.:46:16.

been clear for some time. The identification principle is

:46:17.:46:20.

difficult because inevitably the e-mail trail tends to dry up in

:46:21.:46:25.

middle management and this is evidentially hard to prove. I put

:46:26.:46:30.

this point to the premise on Monday. I was glad to hear him commit to

:46:31.:46:34.

going away and looking at the proposals.

:46:35.:46:44.

proposal is to extend the application of the section seven

:46:45.:46:54.

offence which I will explain not only to tax evasion but to all

:46:55.:46:59.

economic crime. This is the nub of the issue. As the Prime Minister

:47:00.:47:04.

announced on Monday, and indeed he had announced previously but there

:47:05.:47:07.

had been no action to follow it up as yet, the government does intend

:47:08.:47:12.

to legislate to hold corporate criminally liable for failing to

:47:13.:47:16.

prevent the facilitation of tax evasion, thereby accepting that the

:47:17.:47:22.

current liability framework for corporate, which does apply to all

:47:23.:47:27.

economic crimes, does not actually work. It proposes to do this by

:47:28.:47:33.

creating an offence under the bribery act. The Labour government

:47:34.:47:42.

introduced this in 2010. It puts the onus on companies to ensure proper

:47:43.:47:46.

compliance procedures and holds them criminally liable if they do not.

:47:47.:47:51.

The model already applies to the offence of bribery and it will now

:47:52.:47:56.

apply to tax evasion under the government's proposals. Why stop at

:47:57.:48:00.

activation? Why not extend it to failure to prevent other forms of

:48:01.:48:05.

economic crime, such as fraud or money-laundering, as promised in the

:48:06.:48:10.

2015 Conservative Party manifesto. It is something the director of the

:48:11.:48:14.

Serious Fraud Office has suggested as a workable solution. In 2013, he

:48:15.:48:19.

highlighted the benefits that such an approach would merely contribute

:48:20.:48:34.

to the corporate culture which created the crash. I will give way.

:48:35.:48:48.

Earlier, she mentioned a parallel with America. Here nobody was held

:48:49.:49:00.

to account. In America they were. The banks in America have paid

:49:01.:49:04.

significant finds as a result of their behaviour head of the crash.

:49:05.:49:09.

It has been more difficult to ensure justice is done Sir. This is the

:49:10.:49:13.

reason why this needs to be urgently addressed. It is a simple and

:49:14.:49:18.

workable solution. The government already intends to legislate for

:49:19.:49:21.

activation and it would be a simple case of extending the number of

:49:22.:49:25.

offences that that extension applies to. I would strongly urge the

:49:26.:49:30.

government to look closely at part two of schedule 17 of the crime and

:49:31.:49:34.

ports act because it sets out a useful list of offences, covering

:49:35.:49:45.

all manner of fraudulent trading. The government's proposed new

:49:46.:49:49.

offence could equally apply to. The work is all done and the ducks lined

:49:50.:49:54.

up, it just needs the government to implement this change. The

:49:55.:49:59.

revelations in the Panama papers represent a pivotal moment. And one

:50:00.:50:04.

which the government must not squander. The Panama papers have not

:50:05.:50:10.

just highlighted issues of tax evasion and avoidance, but issues of

:50:11.:50:20.

money-laundering and crying. And how these companies facilitate it. --

:50:21.:50:31.

crime. The UK Government could send out a serious message. I urge the

:50:32.:50:38.

government to take this important step to arm our law enforcement

:50:39.:50:42.

agencies and courts to properly hold companies to account.

:50:43.:50:48.

It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate and to follow the

:50:49.:50:53.

honourable lady, who made an excellent speech. There is an elite

:50:54.:51:01.

who seem to live by different rules. I agree with that. She summarised it

:51:02.:51:05.

extremely well. What I wanted to talk about, was about those

:51:06.:51:15.

underlying issues, why is there such public anger about this? Tax

:51:16.:51:19.

avoidance and evasion have been going on for hundreds of years.

:51:20.:51:28.

Smuggling was tax evasion. Why is there now a crescendo of public

:51:29.:51:32.

anger about this issue? It cannot just be because we had the Panama

:51:33.:51:38.

papers. I would argue it is due to underlying economics and those

:51:39.:51:42.

features that emerge in our society after the great credit crunch. --

:51:43.:51:44.

fissures. The government keeps saying we are

:51:45.:51:57.

all in this together. Quite clearly we are not. We have a

:51:58.:52:03.

record low in the number of workless households at the moment. That is

:52:04.:52:07.

the single biggest cause of poverty. This government has a strong record

:52:08.:52:11.

in dealing with poverty. I will be coming on to that.

:52:12.:52:18.

I'm happy to give way. I have to challenge on that point. There are

:52:19.:52:22.

more people in work who are in poverty than ever before. I simply

:52:23.:52:31.

do not agree with that. But I did want to start by focusing on the

:52:32.:52:35.

action that has been taken. I do not think the anger is due to a lack of

:52:36.:52:43.

action. It is lovely to have somebody popular a speech! So many

:52:44.:52:48.

interventions! In terms of the action taken, as my honourable

:52:49.:52:52.

friend said earlier, there has been a 50% fall in the corporation tax

:52:53.:52:59.

gap. The honourable gentleman has been

:53:00.:53:02.

very generous on interventions. Would he agree that one of the

:53:03.:53:06.

things that really used to anger people was the fact that a cleaner

:53:07.:53:10.

in an office could be paying less than a hedge fund manager working in

:53:11.:53:16.

it, and that is one of the things that was tackled here in the UK? An

:53:17.:53:21.

excellent point. It was a fundamental injustice and we did

:53:22.:53:25.

deal with it. In the latest budget we have announced a series of

:53:26.:53:29.

measures to tackle tax avoidance, measures about hybrid mismatch,

:53:30.:53:37.

about abuse of VAT evasion am a the General Anti-Abuse Rule. The

:53:38.:53:44.

government will be introducing a new penalty in relation to the General

:53:45.:53:48.

Anti-Abuse Rule. We have also mentioned offshore of oil cetera. We

:53:49.:53:52.

have a long list of measures. In terms of this border point about the

:53:53.:54:00.

wider economics, I founded a small business in 2004. A mortgage broker

:54:01.:54:04.

specialising in Shared Ownership. It was obvious to me in the build-up to

:54:05.:54:09.

2008 what was coming down the track. What I feel the government was doing

:54:10.:54:13.

was effectively trying to tackle inequality through debt. We had a

:54:14.:54:19.

situation where you could have two potential home-buyers, one of whom

:54:20.:54:23.

was wealthy, well-educated, and another with less good skills and a

:54:24.:54:30.

less salary. They could both obtain similar levels of mortgage in those

:54:31.:54:36.

days. Self certified mortgages, sub-prime etc. We know where this

:54:37.:54:41.

lead. In terms of public debt, we had tax credits. The main measure to

:54:42.:54:46.

deal with inequality was tax credits. A ?30 billion increase in

:54:47.:54:56.

in work benefits. I will carry on. We paid for that on the National

:54:57.:55:02.

overdraft. An increase of ?30 billion in benefits spending at a

:55:03.:55:05.

time when we were doing pretty well as a country and when the world

:55:06.:55:13.

economy was relatively strong. He seems to be saying that less

:55:14.:55:17.

intelligent people should not be allowed mortgages. Is that what he

:55:18.:55:22.

was saying? I think you should withdraw that. I find that genuinely

:55:23.:55:27.

offensive. What I said was the rules were very lax. You could have some

:55:28.:55:32.

self certification, which when somebody on a low salary could get a

:55:33.:55:38.

large mortgage, just like somebody on a large salary. This led to a

:55:39.:55:44.

huge crash in 2008. I believe we have one fundamental question. How

:55:45.:55:48.

we go about, in the current economic context, trying to deliver a fairer

:55:49.:55:53.

economy, which we all want, where more people share in the growth we

:55:54.:55:58.

have been able to deliver. Yes, we do need strong measures against tax

:55:59.:56:02.

avoidance. We do need the public to feel we are in this together, that

:56:03.:56:09.

we are paying our fair share. Does he welcomed the fact that it is

:56:10.:56:14.

under this government that the top 1% of earners is paying 28% of tax,

:56:15.:56:19.

a far higher percentage than was the case under Labour? There are shouts

:56:20.:56:24.

from opposite because this point was made earlier by me. It is worth

:56:25.:56:29.

repeating. I am delighted my honourable friend made it. It is

:56:30.:56:39.

such a strong point. This point about the richest 1% paying the

:56:40.:56:43.

largest amount of tax has been bandied about today as though it is

:56:44.:56:48.

a sign of virtue. It is a sign of the gross inequality in the country.

:56:49.:56:51.

That is something that needs to be addressed. The rich are paying more

:56:52.:56:59.

tax. How is that an unequal society? Let me talk about the measures we

:57:00.:57:03.

should be pursuing. Yes, we should be cracking down on aggressive tax

:57:04.:57:07.

avoidance, but the source of measures that we need if we are to

:57:08.:57:11.

help people across society, I things like the national Living Wage,

:57:12.:57:15.

introduced on the 1st of April by a Conservative government. There are

:57:16.:57:21.

those who say the the National Living Wage is not generous and.

:57:22.:57:25.

They have obviously not been reading the Guardian. The Guardian recently

:57:26.:57:31.

used the big Mac index, as used by the Economist, to prove that the

:57:32.:57:38.

minimum wage we will have with the National Minimum Wage is more

:57:39.:57:42.

generous than in any other European country except Luxembourg. It is

:57:43.:57:45.

only in Luxembourg where you can buy more burgers than you can with the

:57:46.:57:50.

minimum wage in this country. The honourable gentleman asked what this

:57:51.:57:54.

has to do with tax avoidance. The underlying issue is about fairness,

:57:55.:57:58.

is about how you achieve an economy in which there is a widespread sense

:57:59.:58:02.

that everyone has an opportunity and the chance to earn a decent wage. We

:58:03.:58:07.

are delivering that inform or adverse circumstances than the

:58:08.:58:14.

government before. -- in far more adverse circumstances. We had the

:58:15.:58:18.

biggest deficit since the Second World War. 11.5% of GDP, which we

:58:19.:58:25.

have cut by two thirds. It is difficult to go your way out of a

:58:26.:58:28.

problem like that and deliver fairness. The honourable gentleman

:58:29.:58:35.

keeps chuntering body is not adding a great deal to the debate.

:58:36.:58:44.

My honourable friend was talking about fairness. He is talking about

:58:45.:58:48.

some of the challenges we had with the deficit we inherited. In those

:58:49.:58:52.

circumstances, not only have we been shifting income tax from the lowest

:58:53.:58:56.

paid to the highest paid, but we have also been helping small

:58:57.:59:01.

businesses. We will take many small businesses out of business rates

:59:02.:59:05.

altogether whilst making multinationals pay more. My

:59:06.:59:08.

honourable friend is absolutely right to mention small businesses. I

:59:09.:59:13.

used to say to people I run a small business but if you measured is on

:59:14.:59:17.

the mag of corporation tax we paid, we were bigger than Google. If you

:59:18.:59:23.

run a small business, you have to comply. I agree with the honourable

:59:24.:59:30.

lady in that there is an elite that lives by different rules. We have to

:59:31.:59:35.

deal with that. We must not run away from the key point, which my

:59:36.:59:39.

honourable friend, the financial Secretary, also concluded with. When

:59:40.:59:44.

we talk about the transparency, the transparency that matters to the

:59:45.:59:47.

public is our ideals and our beliefs. What do we really believe?

:59:48.:59:51.

I fundamentally believe in a free-market, I believe in

:59:52.:59:56.

capitalism, I believe in individuals using their creativity to earn their

:59:57.:00:01.

way in the world. We cannot go back to paying our way through debt and

:00:02.:00:06.

unsustainable public finances. In those circumstances, yes, we need to

:00:07.:00:10.

maximise the tax we get. We also need to maximise the investment into

:00:11.:00:15.

this country from these countries we have heard chastised by the Labour

:00:16.:00:20.

front bench. They are massive employers in this country. We need

:00:21.:00:26.

to it be expanding the exports. We need a positive free enterprise

:00:27.:00:29.

agenda which adds a fair sense that companies are paying their fair

:00:30.:00:33.

share, that individuals are, but ultimately does not denigrate the

:00:34.:00:37.

free market but create sustainable growth to deliver prosperity for

:00:38.:00:40.

all. Order, order. I have now to announce

:00:41.:00:45.

the result of the deferred division on employment agencies etc. The ayes

:00:46.:00:51.

worth 307, the noes War 241. The ayes have it. Everybody speaking at

:00:52.:01:01.

just over ten minutes rather than eight minutes. It is about seven

:01:02.:01:05.

minutes or less now if we want to get everybody in.

:01:06.:01:12.

I want to start off by saying that what has been highlighted by the

:01:13.:01:17.

publication of the so-called panama papers is that we do not have a fair

:01:18.:01:23.

tax system. We are not all in it together, as my honourable friend,

:01:24.:01:28.

the member for Newcastle North, mentioned, said very eloquently.

:01:29.:01:34.

Those who have been exposed by this scandal have knowingly exploited tax

:01:35.:01:37.

avoidance measures for their own personal financial gain. While not

:01:38.:01:42.

technically illegal, aggressive tax avoidance has been against the

:01:43.:01:47.

spirit and the intention of the law and the will of this House. What is

:01:48.:01:53.

really shocking is that this has included heads of government,

:01:54.:02:00.

including our own Prime Minister. And it poses fundamental questions

:02:01.:02:08.

about politics and politicians. Once again it threatens the public

:02:09.:02:11.

confidence and trust in politics and politicians. These are people who

:02:12.:02:19.

are meant to be providing leadership to our very citizens. It calls into

:02:20.:02:25.

question the attitudes and values, as well as the motives for seeking

:02:26.:02:33.

public office. Does my honourable friend feel that

:02:34.:02:38.

comments made, for instance, by the member for Buckland and Milton, who

:02:39.:02:42.

said that if you are not wealthy you are a low achiever, as to the

:02:43.:02:47.

distrust of the public towards politicians? I think it adds to the

:02:48.:02:54.

dissatisfaction with politics and politicians as a whole. It was a

:02:55.:03:04.

very insulting statement. As has already been said on both sides of

:03:05.:03:09.

the House, it is more evidence of a powerful and indifferent elite for

:03:10.:03:13.

whom the accumulation of wealth is paramount at the expense of their

:03:14.:03:17.

fellow citizens. The evasion and avoidance of tax means there is less

:03:18.:03:24.

money collected by the Exchequer for pensioners, disabled people and

:03:25.:03:32.

public servants. Fundamentally, dodging paying a fair share of taxes

:03:33.:03:36.

contributing to growing inequality in this country and across the

:03:37.:03:41.

world. Tax havens are at the heart of this. Many of you will have seen

:03:42.:03:46.

the Oxfam report last month, which says the UK heads the world's

:03:47.:03:52.

biggest financial secrecy network, centred on the city of London.

:03:53.:03:58.

Collectively it is estimated to account for nearly a quarter of

:03:59.:04:02.

global financial services provided to nonresidents within a given

:04:03.:04:07.

jurisdiction. The UK takes prime position for all jurisdictions

:04:08.:04:11.

across the world in the tax Justice network's financial security index.

:04:12.:04:15.

Hardly something we should be proud of. The National audit of it has

:04:16.:04:24.

estimated the tax gap at 34 billion pounds per year. -- the national

:04:25.:04:28.

audit Office. ?1 billion more than in 2009. This is the equivalent of a

:04:29.:04:37.

third of the NHS budget. It accounts for tax fraud, which includes tax

:04:38.:04:45.

evasion, which amounts to about half of the tax gap. If we consider the

:04:46.:04:50.

cuts being proposed by the government in the budget last month

:04:51.:04:54.

to disabled people around the personal independence statement, the

:04:55.:05:00.

half after tax gap some would have paid for a all of the annual budget

:05:01.:05:06.

for people on disability benefit. The HMRC compliance units tackle all

:05:07.:05:16.

aspects of noncompliance. According to the NAO, they do not record how

:05:17.:05:20.

much of the revenue they recover has been successfully recovered in

:05:21.:05:27.

relation to tax evasion. But they do estimate that this is about 30%. The

:05:28.:05:34.

HMRC have to balance between what they can get in quickly, low hanging

:05:35.:05:41.

fruit, low risk, low visibility, lower vein -- game, and those that

:05:42.:05:45.

are higher visibility, the more context come in all cases. This is

:05:46.:05:50.

where political leadership comes in and has been seriously absent. I

:05:51.:05:56.

will refer to this in a moment. In spite of a G8 commitment in 2013

:05:57.:06:00.

other common reporting standard at global level, the government has

:06:01.:06:05.

been obfuscating around these measures. I welcome what has been

:06:06.:06:10.

proposed by the government this week, but again, why now, six years

:06:11.:06:18.

later? I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to me in

:06:19.:06:23.

terms of how much of the ?266 million that has been specifically

:06:24.:06:30.

allocated to address tax fraud. I also would be grateful as well as to

:06:31.:06:36.

while we have got additional staff now acting on tax evasion, but why

:06:37.:06:42.

was it that nearly 6000 HMRC staff were let go between 2013 and 2015.

:06:43.:06:48.

And has the 10% reduction in the HMRC since 2008 affected the

:06:49.:06:49.

collection of tax evaded monies? I welcome the additional measures

:06:50.:07:01.

taken, but it is clear that in terms of my mailbox and I'm sure other

:07:02.:07:06.

members of the same, of the absolute outrage. It is palpable in terms of

:07:07.:07:14.

public anger around this. The Member for Blaydon summed it up perfectly

:07:15.:07:24.

sane this abuse from a tiny minority is shocking. I quote from the

:07:25.:07:32.

Institute for Fiscal Studies. We have had aggressive budget over the

:07:33.:07:36.

last six years, which have shown that people on low and middle

:07:37.:07:42.

incomes are proportionally worse off regarding tax and social security

:07:43.:07:47.

measures. Projections of the next five years are of increasing

:07:48.:07:59.

poverty. It is in this context that this is so shocking. The top 1% in

:08:00.:08:05.

the last 15 years have increased wealth by 79%. ?3.7 million per

:08:06.:08:11.

person. Some in the bottom 10% saw a rise of just 45%. The Prime Minister

:08:12.:08:28.

admitted benefiting in an offshore trust. The Prime Minister opposed

:08:29.:08:35.

the beneficiaries of offshore trusts being named under EU money wondering

:08:36.:08:42.

rules. Vertical leadership has been absent and contrary to what can be

:08:43.:08:47.

deemed as being fair. I'm conscious of the time. The proposals we have

:08:48.:08:55.

made will make a real difference. I hope members look at these. Thank

:08:56.:09:04.

you. I wasn't sure at the start of the debate because I had no

:09:05.:09:08.

intention of speaking. I listen to the Shadow Chancellor's contribution

:09:09.:09:15.

and found myself understanding his frustrations and the points he was

:09:16.:09:21.

making. The problem is his solution appears to be some sort of socialist

:09:22.:09:27.

utopia. I personally don't see any example in history of that working.

:09:28.:09:31.

But it forces me to consider what could be a viable solution to these

:09:32.:09:37.

states of affairs. Understandably, as many colleagues have already ably

:09:38.:09:42.

illustrated in their speeches, the general public are angry. The

:09:43.:09:49.

frustrated. There is a palpable sense for breakdown in trust, not

:09:50.:09:55.

just for us in this chamber, but also in systems of government. The

:09:56.:10:00.

tax system, the social work system, the latest dreadful case in Burton.

:10:01.:10:07.

Across-the-board, public are deeply cynical. This is not the latest tax

:10:08.:10:15.

scandal. We have had Google and many others. I can understand why the

:10:16.:10:18.

average man and woman in the street is thinking, if it is good for me,

:10:19.:10:24.

why is it not good for them? The response should not be hypocrisy. It

:10:25.:10:32.

certainly shouldn't be envy. It should be, what can we practically

:10:33.:10:37.

do in this globalised economy we all inhabit? I will readily admit there

:10:38.:10:42.

are feelings in the current capitalist model we have. I will

:10:43.:10:59.

give way. He mentioned earlier on public anger. I think the public are

:11:00.:11:14.

weary of what is going on after six years. The recession and the

:11:15.:11:20.

measures to deal with the recession are too harsh and have gone on for

:11:21.:11:23.

too long. That is why the public feel they are bearing the biggest

:11:24.:11:31.

part of the Burton. That is a political and philosophical point.

:11:32.:11:33.

You don't believe that reducing the size of the state is in the

:11:34.:11:39.

interests of the majority. I do. That is where we were diverted. I

:11:40.:11:45.

think you are right. There is this sense that the middle are carrying

:11:46.:11:48.

the burden and the very rich are not. All of these things we have

:11:49.:11:58.

been talking about, I wish I had the money to invest in trust or

:11:59.:12:02.

elsewhere, but I believe it is legal. If it is legal I believe it

:12:03.:12:14.

is legitimate. The reality is the system is where we need to look

:12:15.:12:19.

first. The tax scandal I referred to earlier regarding corporation tax of

:12:20.:12:29.

Google and the like, my response is that corporation tax is out of date

:12:30.:12:34.

in a globalised economy. Let scrap it and get rid of it. Then we can

:12:35.:12:43.

move it to a form of taxation not so easily avoidable. Employee taxation,

:12:44.:12:50.

a property tax or a sales tax, whatever you choose, the idea that

:12:51.:12:58.

there should be a corporation tax in this world I think is nonsense. I

:12:59.:13:09.

think we should scrap stamp duty. Find another way of levying it.

:13:10.:13:13.

Maybe you should be taxed for the ownership of an ongoing basis or as

:13:14.:13:20.

council tax. Clearly these taxes are not fit for purpose. The art easily

:13:21.:13:24.

avoidable. Finally, the other challenge we have is regarding

:13:25.:13:34.

equity. A lot has been said about the inheritance tax arrangements of

:13:35.:13:39.

the Prime Minister. I totally expected. Anyone with any wealth

:13:40.:13:53.

would mitigate against that from happening. How do we facilitate the

:13:54.:13:59.

transfer of the wealth built up from those poor after the war? At the

:14:00.:14:05.

moment, we don't really have a system that is working. We need one

:14:06.:14:10.

that works. Regarding transparency and the need for simplification, I

:14:11.:14:15.

am quite attracted to the Scandinavian and Norwegian model of

:14:16.:14:21.

publishing tax and wealth online. I personally would support that. I

:14:22.:14:26.

have nothing to hide as far as I am aware. When I mention this to

:14:27.:14:30.

conservative colleagues, the always worry about privacy and the like. If

:14:31.:14:38.

that is the case, I don't think the Prime Minister should have published

:14:39.:14:41.

his tax returns and nor should anyone else. It is either all or

:14:42.:14:46.

nothing. Each and every one of us, we each have a sheer in our

:14:47.:14:53.

democracy. We each have a share in Arab government functioning. For

:14:54.:14:58.

that she to be valued, we must all trust that it is legitimate and it

:14:59.:15:01.

is they are. That everyone is playing by the rules. I personally

:15:02.:15:08.

am drawn to the Norwegian model with the necessary clarifications

:15:09.:15:12.

regarding legitimate application, but I don't see any reason why we

:15:13.:15:17.

shouldn't do that. I shall give way. Which Norwegian model? I am of

:15:18.:15:31.

course talking about the tax system. That have been some concerns

:15:32.:15:34.

regarding extortion and potential for kidnapping the very wealthy,

:15:35.:15:42.

however the legitimate application, I personally don't see a problem

:15:43.:15:48.

with it. Everyone will be interested for the first couple of years, but

:15:49.:15:52.

then I think it will settle down. In closing, the reason I have

:15:53.:15:57.

contributed today and the reason I feel strongly about this is if we

:15:58.:16:02.

don't have trust, not just in are, but trust in this establishment and

:16:03.:16:07.

trust in government, you cannot actually achieve very much. If you

:16:08.:16:11.

look at the challenges this country faces regarding long-term

:16:12.:16:15.

sustainability of health and wealth, particularly pensions, there will

:16:16.:16:20.

have to be difficult decisions. For those decisions to be in the medley,

:16:21.:16:24.

we have to be trusted. Everything we do here should be about that. That

:16:25.:16:31.

is why I think we should scrap taxes which are out of date and have long

:16:32.:16:38.

been so is a huge priority. I'm grateful for this interesting

:16:39.:16:48.

speech. I want to make an intervention. Regarding tax

:16:49.:16:52.

transparency, does he feel that tax transparency will automatically lead

:16:53.:16:56.

to a greater feel of trust amongst the electorate? I feel that

:16:57.:17:06.

transparency may not lead to greater trust. Initially, I would agree that

:17:07.:17:12.

it won't. If you look at Norway, the richest man in Norway, he was

:17:13.:17:20.

publishing his wealth and income. Here is very popular because it

:17:21.:17:24.

turns out he is an extensive philanthropist. People don't have a

:17:25.:17:27.

problem with people being successful. What there is a

:17:28.:17:31.

suspicion of is that there is something underhand. As the Prime

:17:32.:17:37.

Minister says, transparency is the best disinfectant. I'm conscious of

:17:38.:17:46.

the time. Trust matters. Without trust, you can't actually implement

:17:47.:17:51.

what is necessary. Anything the government can do to encourage the

:17:52.:17:54.

public to trust in the system and trust in this institution, it gets

:17:55.:18:07.

my support. This issue is all about trust. The public have reacted so

:18:08.:18:11.

fiercely against recent events because there is a collapse of trust

:18:12.:18:18.

in as. The expenses scandal, this screaming nightmare we went through.

:18:19.:18:24.

Trust from the public went to rock bottom. Now it is subterranean. It

:18:25.:18:29.

is worse since then. There is an examination going on of our

:18:30.:18:33.

standards in this House. I would urge everyone to contribute.

:18:34.:18:39.

Democracy itself, the political system, is under threat. Quite

:18:40.:18:45.

rightly the country is angry when they see the difference, the

:18:46.:18:48.

unfairness in the system. We had the most insulting speech the other day

:18:49.:18:53.

in this House that is going too deep in that sense of alienation between

:18:54.:18:59.

that side and the other. Because the person who made that speech, I

:19:00.:19:06.

recall an incident how he revealed to the newspapers how he was making

:19:07.:19:12.

some of his money. Teapot the Council house of an elderly

:19:13.:19:15.

gentleman in London who I think was a neighbour on the basis that can

:19:16.:19:20.

size was going to appreciate greatly in value. The neighbour was not

:19:21.:19:25.

going to live very long. The agreement the honourable member made

:19:26.:19:31.

was that he would give the man the money to buy the House, the tenant

:19:32.:19:37.

would buy it, give him the discount for being there for years, then the

:19:38.:19:40.

House would be inherited by the honourable member. This is Tory

:19:41.:19:48.

morale at a. This is morally repugnant. This is not the right to

:19:49.:19:54.

buy a. It is the right to greet. And that is the man who lectured as the

:19:55.:20:01.

other day. I'm trying to castigate those who he described

:20:02.:20:04.

contemptuously as low achievers. The difficulty we have is the gulf

:20:05.:20:08.

between what the government is saying and what the government is

:20:09.:20:14.

doing. In March 2010, the Prime Minister made an impassioned speech

:20:15.:20:18.

about how he was going to clean up lobbying. He was going to come in

:20:19.:20:22.

and sort it out. Where are we today? Six years later, the lobbying act

:20:23.:20:29.

has gone through, life for trade unions and charities is more

:20:30.:20:32.

troublesome than it was before, but the big corporate lobbyists don't

:20:33.:20:39.

have to declare whose clients are. Has been no reform that is

:20:40.:20:44.

worthwhile. He has worried the minnows in the shallows, but the

:20:45.:20:50.

great fat salmon are still swimming by unhindered. Have done the same

:20:51.:20:56.

with this question where there is no sincerity in their determination to

:20:57.:21:03.

tackle the tax savings. I give the example which has a fascinating

:21:04.:21:09.

story about a gentleman who sees himself as the spokesman for the

:21:10.:21:14.

Cayman Islands. He mocked the Prime Minister and said he had no

:21:15.:21:20.

intention of carrying out his threats to deal with the tax havens.

:21:21.:21:25.

It is a political gesture. That is has worked. On the political

:21:26.:21:29.

gesture. We have heard the First Minister for the Cayman Islands is

:21:30.:21:33.

putting two fingers up to the Prime Minister. They're not going to take

:21:34.:21:41.

any notice. Let's look at the remarkable history of Lord bring

:21:42.:21:43.

Castro. It is a remarkable story which shows the history of this

:21:44.:21:53.

House. In 2012I made a complaint about his behaviour. It was taken to

:21:54.:21:58.

a committee in the House to examine. What the complaint was about was I

:21:59.:22:05.

was suggesting he was in breach of the parliamentary code of conduct.

:22:06.:22:11.

Lobbying the Chancellor because of taxes affecting the Cayman Islands

:22:12.:22:16.

and he facilitated role-playing -- all paid expenses trip for members

:22:17.:22:24.

of this House to the Cayman Islands. The Lords Standards Committee held

:22:25.:22:28.

an investigation into this and it was a remarkable document that they

:22:29.:22:29.

produced. The Lord explained that he was

:22:30.:22:41.

taking thousands of pounds per month in payment from the Cayman Islands

:22:42.:22:46.

but he was not lobbying Parliament or government, he was lobbying

:22:47.:22:51.

members. Or the other way round. There was a spurious excuse he gave.

:22:52.:22:57.

Quite remarkably, the decision taken in 2012, that he had not been in

:22:58.:23:02.

breach of any rules of the House. Two years later the contract that he

:23:03.:23:10.

signed was leaked. It appeared in it that what he said was that he would

:23:11.:23:16.

promote the Cayman Islands in the UK and Europe by liaising with and

:23:17.:23:20.

making representations with UK ministers, foreign and Commonwealth

:23:21.:23:24.

officers and members of the House of Lords. He put up a spirited defence.

:23:25.:23:29.

He said he may have signed the contract but he had forgotten what

:23:30.:23:35.

he had agreed to. He had no intention of doing what it said in

:23:36.:23:39.

the contract. This is the most egregious breach of the code of

:23:40.:23:45.

conduct in this House. Order. The honourable member knows

:23:46.:23:50.

that he is not to criticise members of the other House directly or

:23:51.:23:56.

personally. He has been reporting -- Cording from reports until now but

:23:57.:24:01.

if he could desist from directly criticising other members of the

:24:02.:24:07.

House, I would be grateful. I have dealt with that matter now. What we

:24:08.:24:13.

must say to the the Government is that if we fail -- they fail to act

:24:14.:24:17.

against their own members, who are not trying to stop the abuses of tax

:24:18.:24:22.

havens, but are actually lubricating them, how can we take them

:24:23.:24:29.

seriously? I think we have two say -- to say that this has happened

:24:30.:24:33.

because it might expose the corruption that is so endemic, and

:24:34.:24:38.

huge sums that are available, that are going around and disappearing

:24:39.:24:44.

into tax havens. Light has been shone on this. I believe there is a

:24:45.:24:55.

political agenda. We do not what it is. It may be a sinister one. I do

:24:56.:25:00.

repeat the point I made earlier that one of the curious things here is

:25:01.:25:04.

what is happening with other nations. China has 44 billion in the

:25:05.:25:13.

Cayman Islands. And in the Virgin Islands they have got 49 billion.

:25:14.:25:18.

These are huge sums of money. This is only part of the programme that

:25:19.:25:27.

we have, with possible revelations still to come. This pivotal scandal,

:25:28.:25:32.

revelation, will spread for decades, I believe. I am curious with the

:25:33.:25:38.

government's reluctance to act against China in many other ways. We

:25:39.:25:46.

have done a dreadful deal, financially disastrous deal, that

:25:47.:25:49.

might give us the most expensive electricity in the world, but a deal

:25:50.:25:54.

which is now collapsing at Hinkley Point. The government seems to want

:25:55.:25:59.

's to ingratiate themselves with the Chinese government and because of

:26:00.:26:02.

that they are going soft on them in many ways. They are not taking sharp

:26:03.:26:14.

action against them against the undercutting of the steel industry.

:26:15.:26:18.

We have a strange relation with the Cayman Islands and we do provide

:26:19.:26:22.

them with great advantages, providing their defence for them.

:26:23.:26:26.

But this permissiveness from the government must stop and we look for

:26:27.:26:29.

the anti-corruption conference for the government to take the tough

:26:30.:26:32.

line they have promised to take. They have not done it before.

:26:33.:26:38.

Let's see them do it. I am sorry to have to say that everybody has gone

:26:39.:26:41.

the way over my informal speech limit. I will have two in four --

:26:42.:26:46.

impose a formal speech limit of six minutes and I hope people will not

:26:47.:26:51.

take too many interventions. I welcome the opportunity to talk in

:26:52.:26:57.

this debate. While I welcome the intervention that has been taken to

:26:58.:27:02.

tackle tax avoidance, I do feel the events in the past few days and

:27:03.:27:08.

particularly this afternoon is more about the politics of envy. We now

:27:09.:27:13.

see that the top 1% of earners are actually paying 28% of income tax.

:27:14.:27:18.

Those figures are likely to grow. Just with the figures released in

:27:19.:27:23.

the past couple of days, from the Chancellor, from the Prime Minister,

:27:24.:27:27.

we see evidence that those who earn more, pay more, with the Prime

:27:28.:27:35.

Minister paneer lea ?76,000 vehicle tax, which is double the amount I

:27:36.:27:41.

learned as a nurse a few months ago. If you earn more, you do indeed pay

:27:42.:27:45.

more. I take the comments of the member for Newport West in saying

:27:46.:27:49.

there is a difference between what is said in this House and what is

:27:50.:27:54.

done. Members opposite talk about reducing inequality in taxation but

:27:55.:27:57.

then oppose measures which have seen 3 million people, the lowest paid

:27:58.:28:02.

people in this country, taken out of tax altogether in the last few

:28:03.:28:06.

weeks. Members opposite voted against measures not just in the

:28:07.:28:10.

budget just gone, but in the budget last year, which froze fuel duty,

:28:11.:28:15.

VAT, Insurance. Again, helping the lowest paid people in this country.

:28:16.:28:22.

And this from a party who introduced the 10p tax rate, which actually hit

:28:23.:28:27.

the lowest paid in this country. We on this side will take no lectures

:28:28.:28:33.

on tax equality. In the short time that I have, I would just want to

:28:34.:28:38.

touch on the subject of inheritance tax, which members opposite seemed

:28:39.:28:45.

to lead with politics of March. And I assume that inheritance tax is

:28:46.:28:51.

just there to tackle those who have a high income and a lot of assets.

:28:52.:28:57.

Actually, as a member of Parliament for a constituency in the

:28:58.:28:59.

south-east, I am seeing more and more low-income families who,

:29:00.:29:04.

through no fault of their own, have seen their family homes increase in

:29:05.:29:08.

price, and now falling to inheritance tax. They are having to

:29:09.:29:16.

move out of their family home when the inheritance tax is due. They are

:29:17.:29:20.

acid rich but income poor. People like myself as a nurse, teachers,

:29:21.:29:26.

trainers, who cannot afford to pay inheritance tax, they are having to

:29:27.:29:30.

leave their local areas. That a particular issue in London and the

:29:31.:29:38.

south-east. It is very misleading to suggest only people on high incomes

:29:39.:29:44.

pay inheritance tax. A couple of other points I want to bring up in

:29:45.:29:47.

the few minutes we have is that this feeling that success is just

:29:48.:29:52.

measured in wealth is absolutely wrong. I think the honourable member

:29:53.:29:57.

for South staffer said this. Actually, we do not just measure

:29:58.:30:01.

success in terms of wealth, but neither should we penalise those who

:30:02.:30:04.

have done well. It will be a sorry day of this country becomes a place

:30:05.:30:09.

where if you have done well, you are contributing to your local economy,

:30:10.:30:13.

you are employing people, that you should be penalised, and not just

:30:14.:30:17.

penalised but be frowned upon. It is the party opposite that is trying to

:30:18.:30:26.

help people. We are the party of low taxation whether you are a rich or

:30:27.:30:30.

poor. I see members laughing. I welcome the measures this government

:30:31.:30:35.

has taken. I welcome the crackdown this government has taken on illegal

:30:36.:30:39.

tax avoiders and I welcome the measures they have introduced to

:30:40.:30:46.

take... I hope members opposite will desist from this politics of envy.

:30:47.:30:51.

And deal with the problem of tax avoidance. I agree completely, it

:30:52.:31:05.

was utterly wrong that a cleaner was paying more tax than the hedge fund

:31:06.:31:11.

members. Thank God that cleaner was getting the national minimum Wage,

:31:12.:31:14.

which was registered by the party opposite. -- resisted. The Liberal

:31:15.:31:26.

Democrats. And also, I welcome the fact that low paid the blurb and

:31:27.:31:29.

taken off the threshold -- tax threshold. 2.5% of the workforce

:31:30.:31:36.

would not have been taxed no matter what the level because they are paid

:31:37.:31:44.

so abysmal. Public sector workers have seen the tax threshold rise and

:31:45.:31:49.

I've seen their pay frozen or cut for the last eight days. You have to

:31:50.:31:55.

look at the big picture. The Prime Minister was right when he came here

:31:56.:32:01.

on Monday. Nobody should tread juices that. It was wrong. The

:32:02.:32:04.

attack on his mother was not right either. It is normal and right that

:32:05.:32:10.

parents want to help their kids. And in principle, if you're dad or your

:32:11.:32:18.

mother has expertise in any field, you would expect them to use that

:32:19.:32:22.

knowledge. That applies to stop brokers, stockmen, bakers and

:32:23.:32:27.

bankers. But the real problem this has exposed is the range of

:32:28.:32:32.

opportunities that are only opened to the witch -- Ridge, wealthy and

:32:33.:32:35.

powerful in this nation, and this is what proves that we are simply not

:32:36.:32:40.

all in this together. Whichever way this is dressed up, what is clear is

:32:41.:32:47.

that those in the know have not just got the opportunity and good fortune

:32:48.:32:50.

to make money, it is also claimed when they have got that money there

:32:51.:32:54.

are many avenues open to them to keep their hands on that money. It

:32:55.:32:58.

is one of the reasons why eyebrows are raised in the country and in

:32:59.:33:01.

this House when members opposite push through cuts to income tax from

:33:02.:33:09.

50% to 45%. And have pushed through huge rises at the level in which

:33:10.:33:14.

inheritance tax cuts in because they personally were going to gain from

:33:15.:33:18.

that. If anybody else was doing it, you would be saying it was criminal.

:33:19.:33:26.

When the Prime Minister, who earns ?150,000 per year in a job which is

:33:27.:33:33.

really hard, he totted up with ?50,000 per year by renting out his

:33:34.:33:38.

house. He also get a -- gets another ?40,000 per year from his savings

:33:39.:33:48.

and his investments. Then he says to the poor people of this country, I

:33:49.:33:51.

am sorry, mate, you have to cough up the bedroom tax. People on benefits

:33:52.:34:01.

Irving told they do not need more money. Therefore, they have to give

:34:02.:34:08.

back 30 quid a week. Public servants in this country are told time and

:34:09.:34:12.

time again for the eighth year running, they must accept a real cut

:34:13.:34:18.

in their living standards. I thank my honourable friend

:34:19.:34:23.

forgiving way. I had a conversation with one of the members opposite and

:34:24.:34:28.

they suggested to me that members here should declare their own earned

:34:29.:34:33.

earnings. Does that no -- does my honourable friend know what that

:34:34.:34:40.

means? I have not got a clue. I'm sure the ministers may be able to

:34:41.:34:50.

answer. We also have the Chancellor, getting rental income from his house

:34:51.:34:56.

because he lives in Downing Street. And dividend payments of ?44,000 per

:34:57.:35:01.

year. What does he say to nurses, care workers, prison officers,

:35:02.:35:06.

police officers and tax collectors? You must work harder, you must work

:35:07.:35:14.

longer, you must accept the fact that your pension is going to change

:35:15.:35:18.

and you must except the fact you are going to have to work longer before

:35:19.:35:22.

you get it. How can we expect steelworkers in this country, facing

:35:23.:35:28.

the possibility of a life on the dole, how can we expect them... We

:35:29.:35:31.

understand what you are going through.

:35:32.:35:42.

Was... People are fed up, ordinary people in this country are fed up

:35:43.:35:49.

carrying the can for the mistakes of the bitch in this country. Mistakes

:35:50.:35:52.

which led us into the economic crisis. -- the rich. Men and women

:35:53.:35:59.

will never get the chance to save anything in the first place let

:36:00.:36:02.

alone discredit away in the Caribbean or the Virgin Islands or

:36:03.:36:07.

the Channel Islands, where there are no questions asked as long as you

:36:08.:36:10.

know the drill. In two weeks the trades union Bill will return to

:36:11.:36:17.

this House. They will face even more restrictions, the trade unions,

:36:18.:36:23.

under the sad reality. The honourable lady from Lewis mentioned

:36:24.:36:26.

earlier about trade unions not paying corporation tax. They are in

:36:27.:36:35.

fully audited accounts that have been signed off. Why don't we

:36:36.:36:41.

subject financial markets and regulators and dealers to the same

:36:42.:36:46.

kind of regulations this government intends to impose upon trade unions,

:36:47.:36:51.

whose only job is to look after the interests of ordinary men and women

:36:52.:36:55.

in this country? Why about the same effort into chasing tax dodgers as

:36:56.:37:00.

do into handing so-called benefit cheats? A process that sees innocent

:37:01.:37:05.

people traduced. Innocent people's families rubbished. And at the end

:37:06.:37:12.

of it, they made a mistake. What happened in the meantime? Why do you

:37:13.:37:16.

think people in this country are angry?

:37:17.:37:23.

This is about the politics of fairness. This week we have seen the

:37:24.:37:30.

farce of we are all in this together. This is I get out for the

:37:31.:37:40.

party opposite to say we have heard the anger and frustration, let's

:37:41.:37:45.

work together and use this. Instead the shutting the door and want to

:37:46.:37:50.

carry on the dodgy deals. This is yet again one law for the rich and

:37:51.:37:57.

one more for the power. The people of this country will not stand for

:37:58.:38:09.

it. The most important thing to come out of the Panama papers was the

:38:10.:38:13.

allegations of criminality here and abroad. I hope this will lead to

:38:14.:38:20.

prosecutions and further crackdowns on corruption including places like

:38:21.:38:27.

China are added not like to be one of those individuals named in the

:38:28.:38:31.

Panama papers. Like the Member for Bracknell, I believe this comes to a

:38:32.:38:37.

question of trust. But the antidote to trust or mistrust is not

:38:38.:38:43.

moralising, it is not for my outrage, it is credible action that

:38:44.:38:49.

makes a difference and which the public can believe in. That is what

:38:50.:38:55.

this government has been doing. Just because some members of this House

:38:56.:39:00.

or the media have not followed this issue, just because the Member for

:39:01.:39:05.

Islington North didn't say anything on this matter during 13 years of

:39:06.:39:09.

the last Labour government, just because he sat on the overseas

:39:10.:39:13.

territories will committee and didn't raise any issue of tax of age

:39:14.:39:17.

and on that bill committee, just because he referred to the Labour

:39:18.:39:26.

Government taking control in the Cayman Islands as medieval and

:39:27.:39:35.

undemocratic, does not mean the government has done the same. Let me

:39:36.:39:40.

say a few words about the key points the government has. Many of which

:39:41.:39:44.

have already been mentioned. Raising the question at the G8 Summit and

:39:45.:39:48.

creating the world's first in official register of ownership that

:39:49.:39:54.

is public is an major historic development. Many campaigned against

:39:55.:40:00.

it for illegitimate reasons. This is a massive step forward in the

:40:01.:40:11.

campaign against tax avoidance and evasion. We are the first to do it

:40:12.:40:19.

and it is under this government. Other major economies around the

:40:20.:40:23.

world like the United States have not done this. Next month, chief

:40:24.:40:34.

justice real shrine is coming to Parliament. Of members of this House

:40:35.:40:38.

care about this issue, come to that event and question him on why

:40:39.:40:44.

Delaware, the state in which 90% of the major corporations of the United

:40:45.:40:47.

States have yet to follow the lead of this Prime Minister, have not

:40:48.:40:54.

done that. The general anti-avoidance law was an major and

:40:55.:40:57.

controversial measure taken by the last Coalition Government and

:40:58.:41:02.

opposed by the Labour Party. The Labour Party spokesman of the time

:41:03.:41:07.

said it was inadvisable to take this action until after the conclusion of

:41:08.:41:23.

the bets process. Another initiative was the transparency initiative

:41:24.:41:26.

brought in by Labour but one that they did not sign the UK up to. This

:41:27.:41:32.

is important for raising tax revenue around the world. This is something

:41:33.:41:44.

that many of us campaigned for and the business select Committee said

:41:45.:41:54.

it was a mistake. The point he makes is that practical, credible policies

:41:55.:41:58.

either way to tackle this. We have seen results, contrary to some of

:41:59.:42:04.

the accusations we have heard today, the tax gap was higher in 2009 than

:42:05.:42:13.

it is today. The tax gap for corporations was higher. The tax gap

:42:14.:42:19.

for stamp duty was higher. That is all according to the latest HMRC

:42:20.:42:24.

figures. Loopholes are being closed and practical measures are being

:42:25.:42:28.

brought in. By no means is this the end of the story. Of course there is

:42:29.:42:33.

more to do. I am pleased to see the UK Government is leading the world

:42:34.:42:38.

on this issue and I want to see it do a lot more. Corporation tax

:42:39.:42:51.

reaching 17% versus 30% in the United States will be a major step

:42:52.:42:57.

forward. President Obama was forced to take action against Pfizer

:42:58.:43:07.

because of high corporation tax in the United States. There is more to

:43:08.:43:12.

do. I don't claim that this is mission accomplished. But a lot of

:43:13.:43:16.

good steps have been taken. It is bad for business to have tax havens

:43:17.:43:23.

operating as they do today. Let me give you a brief example from a

:43:24.:43:30.

former career I had as managing director of art business. Many

:43:31.:43:36.

valuable works of art are held in Panama and other countries. A

:43:37.:43:47.

dispute lasted four years. It was likely to be looted during the

:43:48.:43:58.

Nazis. They were revealed to be the owner and I suspect that painting

:43:59.:44:03.

will finally go back to its legitimate owner. I wanted to close

:44:04.:44:14.

with a comment on the tax with a sea issue which has been raised in the

:44:15.:44:22.

press by Polly Toynbee and others. I think this would be a seriously

:44:23.:44:29.

detrimental step. The last major occasion I can think of in a large

:44:30.:44:33.

developed economy where this occurred was during the Civil War in

:44:34.:44:37.

the United States. To try and encourage compliance when the

:44:38.:44:43.

produced income tax, tax returns were posted on the walls of

:44:44.:44:46.

courthouses across the United States. It was one of the most

:44:47.:44:50.

unpopular policies in the history of the United States and it did not

:44:51.:44:55.

increase compliance. The Treasury Secretary said it was utterly

:44:56.:45:01.

useless from a Treasury perspective. Was just the gratification of idle

:45:02.:45:06.

curiosity and the filling of newspaper space. Setting aside prime

:45:07.:45:11.

ministers and politicians, let's defend the right of individuals in

:45:12.:45:16.

this country to have privacy in their business and financial

:45:17.:45:19.

affairs. Legitimate law-abiding citizens of this country should not

:45:20.:45:24.

be the losers of some individuals taking part in criminal acts. It is

:45:25.:45:36.

some scandal where criminals, politicians and dictators have been

:45:37.:45:40.

hiding billions and billions of pounds in offshore accounts under

:45:41.:45:43.

the names of companies that don't actually exist. It is the scale and

:45:44.:45:52.

nature of the scandal that causes me to be so depressed about the nature

:45:53.:45:57.

of the debate we have had in this chamber this afternoon but also

:45:58.:46:04.

leading up to the satin and. It has taken us almost two weeks to

:46:05.:46:08.

actually start debating the issue. I didn't quite buy everything the

:46:09.:46:12.

honourable gentleman for new had to say, but I thought he at least gave

:46:13.:46:18.

one of the most incisive speeches of the contributions today. It is quite

:46:19.:46:24.

obvious this issue is such a major hot potato for the two main parties

:46:25.:46:30.

in this chamber. So hot that they seem to prefer to kick it back and

:46:31.:46:35.

forward. You're worse than ours, we are better than you. Meanwhile the

:46:36.:46:42.

public actually want us to debate the issues that have been leaked.

:46:43.:46:44.

Forget the Twitter hashed tax, forget what has been written in the

:46:45.:46:48.

newspapers, forget the sneering snobbery on one side and the braying

:46:49.:46:54.

mob is on the other side. Let's actually deal with the issue. The

:46:55.:46:59.

issue is not about class. We can have an academic discussion about

:47:00.:47:04.

class later on. This is about criminality. That is what the motion

:47:05.:47:07.

seeks to address and what I think all of us in this chamber really

:47:08.:47:12.

want to address as well. It strikes me the are dashed there are two key

:47:13.:47:17.

ways in which we can tackle this hobbled. One is through resources in

:47:18.:47:22.

terms of resources available to public agencies, the other is

:47:23.:47:28.

through changes in legislation. Lots of members have mentioned you can

:47:29.:47:31.

also look at beefing up international cooperation as well. I

:47:32.:47:36.

genuinely welcome the measures the Prime Minister announced in the

:47:37.:47:40.

statement to the House on Monday. The cross agency task force, the

:47:41.:47:45.

funding that will come with that, and the other measures surrounding

:47:46.:47:51.

legislation are extremely important. And to be welcomed. What I would

:47:52.:47:57.

like the Minister to sum up in her closing remarks if she could would

:47:58.:48:02.

beware the government sees Interpol having a role to play. That is not

:48:03.:48:07.

something I've heard at all. Interpol have not released any

:48:08.:48:12.

public statements on this. I would like to noise Interpol are going to

:48:13.:48:17.

be invited to the corruption summit the Prime Minister will be hosting.

:48:18.:48:21.

I am concerned about the pattern that is forming with these big

:48:22.:48:26.

scandals when they seem to break. Whether it is this one are the

:48:27.:48:31.

Volkswagen scandal or whatever. A very British pattern. A pattern of

:48:32.:48:38.

continuously responding to events. I had hoped to hear more about how the

:48:39.:48:44.

government intends to beef up its HMRC resources to deal with this. It

:48:45.:48:55.

is clearly not working now. It is clearly not working. Somebody really

:48:56.:48:59.

needs to step back and look at the problem within the context that it

:49:00.:49:04.

actually exists. I had also hoped to hear more about how we would be

:49:05.:49:09.

trying to re-cooked some of the tax that we were told. I got back to the

:49:10.:49:15.

point I made earlier about criminality. I can only hope that

:49:16.:49:21.

some of this will be getting talked about in the Paris talks today which

:49:22.:49:24.

I understand the UK Government is represented at. The government has

:49:25.:49:29.

made a lot about its ambition to secure economic security for

:49:30.:49:33.

Britain. They are absolutely right to mention that. The threats we face

:49:34.:49:40.

in terms of financial security are not to be taken lightly. Invite my

:49:41.:49:46.

view the should be up there with the threats we face from terrorist

:49:47.:49:48.

organisations. Just as the primers to announced that he has started to

:49:49.:49:54.

recruit additional staff for agencies such as MI5 in the

:49:55.:50:00.

aftermath of attacks on our doorstep in Europe, he should be seeking to

:50:01.:50:06.

do the exact same thing for the public agencies surrounding criminal

:50:07.:50:13.

finance. I wish the government would see more about what is happening in

:50:14.:50:20.

Australia regarding and explained wealth orders. I will not throw my

:50:21.:50:28.

fool support behind them because there are issues regarding presuming

:50:29.:50:37.

innocence. It has also been used in Italy against gangs such as the

:50:38.:50:41.

Mafia. The public requires us to act. It requires us to stop the

:50:42.:50:46.

politicking, some of which has risen its head today. We need the fine

:50:47.:50:54.

minds of this House, and there are some in this House, such as the

:50:55.:51:04.

right honourable lady who has come together on across party basis and

:51:05.:51:11.

tapped into devolved parliaments and start to take this issue seriously.

:51:12.:51:16.

Ignore those people who tell us you won't understand it and it is too

:51:17.:51:21.

difficult. That allows them to keep doing what has got us to this point.

:51:22.:51:25.

Failure to do so will keep on feeding precancerous way in which

:51:26.:51:32.

our politics is going on. That will be to the detriment of all of us.

:51:33.:51:39.

This is an important debate for all of the reasons given. The public

:51:40.:51:45.

frustration there is with those who seem to be able to earn money but

:51:46.:51:50.

not pay tax while the rest of the people do. A time of austerity.

:51:51.:51:55.

Public finances are stretched and we need to find ways of maintaining --

:51:56.:52:04.

ensuring that taxes are paid. And because of the ability to hide

:52:05.:52:08.

sources of income, there is all kinds of corruption, including as we

:52:09.:52:13.

have found in Northern Ireland, the ability to finance terrorism. I want

:52:14.:52:20.

it put on the record, the leader of the buzz in and the Shadow

:52:21.:52:22.

Chancellor can beat their chests about the way in which taxes are

:52:23.:52:30.

evaded, but they showed friendship and they stated the very people who

:52:31.:52:36.

used all kinds of fiscal fraud to finance murder in Northern Ireland

:52:37.:52:40.

for the stop and we have never heard an apology from them for that. When

:52:41.:52:46.

it comes to this particular issue, we do have two approach this with a

:52:47.:52:53.

sense of maturity. -- to approach this. I know people have denied it

:52:54.:52:57.

on this side of the House. Not from the politics of envy, as we have

:52:58.:53:02.

seen demonstrated in some of the speeches today. And equally, there

:53:03.:53:07.

must be, on the side of the government, a willingness to listen

:53:08.:53:10.

to the genuine concerns and to deal with the issues. I do not believe it

:53:11.:53:16.

is dealt with by simply demanding that everybody produces and

:53:17.:53:20.

publishes their tax returns. If you are going to evade taxes -- tax, you

:53:21.:53:25.

are hardly going to put it down on your tax returns and a way! Where do

:53:26.:53:35.

you stop? -- anyway. If it influenced the way you formulated

:53:36.:53:42.

policy, or top civil servants, the heads of many public sector

:53:43.:53:45.

organisations, the press, because they are involved in it. We cannot

:53:46.:53:52.

have the critics of what happens in this House then avoiding publishing

:53:53.:53:55.

their own tax returns as well. Where do you stop? If that is not the

:53:56.:54:01.

answer anyhow, I believe there are three things which may identify it.

:54:02.:54:10.

We must know who actually is responsible for the income of a

:54:11.:54:16.

certain business or company and be able to trace that. The question of

:54:17.:54:21.

accessibility and transparency is important. How do we achieve that?

:54:22.:54:26.

The the Government has gone some way along the road. There are those on

:54:27.:54:35.

the Labour side who believes we should use orders and councils. A

:54:36.:54:39.

form of colonialism, which I would have thought they would not be so

:54:40.:54:44.

supportive of. Members may say it is nonsense. But either we regard them

:54:45.:54:48.

as independent territories where they make their own laws and we seek

:54:49.:54:52.

to cooperate with them and persuade them to do the right thing, or we

:54:53.:54:58.

impose those laws on them. That is a form of colonialism and I do not

:54:59.:55:01.

think it would work. I think the government is right in seeking to

:55:02.:55:06.

persuade them to come along and see the implications of allowing people

:55:07.:55:13.

to hide their identities in some of the businesses which are in those

:55:14.:55:17.

territories. The second one, and I believe this is important, is that

:55:18.:55:22.

tax avoidance, and many people have talked about tax avoidance today,

:55:23.:55:29.

but yet millions of people in the United Kingdom engaged in tax

:55:30.:55:33.

avoidance and think nothing of it. It is within the law. And when you

:55:34.:55:40.

have a tax code which runs to 22,000 plus pages, with all of the

:55:41.:55:44.

allowances and everything else, then of course you are going to get

:55:45.:55:50.

people finding the loopholes. As the member from Blaydon has said, the

:55:51.:55:55.

people best able to do that our people who have huge resources at

:55:56.:56:00.

their disposal. Many taxpayers do not have that. People have coded

:56:01.:56:09.

Adam Smith today. He said there should be fairness, they should be

:56:10.:56:16.

simplicity, the ability to collect taxes economically. Those are some

:56:17.:56:21.

of the principles we have to look at. The third and final thing is

:56:22.:56:26.

enforceability. I do have reservations about the direction the

:56:27.:56:30.

government is going in. Of course we should find efficiencies in public

:56:31.:56:34.

services. But when I look at the number of tax offices, especially in

:56:35.:56:39.

Northern Ireland, that are being closed, where hundreds of years of

:56:40.:56:44.

experience of dealing with some of the most -- worst money-launderings

:56:45.:56:47.

in the United Kingdom is being lost, I ask myself, are we really serious

:56:48.:56:53.

about taking on the tax evaders? Even when we do spot them, HSBC have

:56:54.:57:01.

been identified as one bank which enabled 7000 people, I think it was,

:57:02.:57:07.

to evade taxes. Over 1100 of them in the United Kingdom. And yet only one

:57:08.:57:11.

prosecution so far. It is not just a case of having the resources to

:57:12.:57:15.

enforce, but making sure that when people are caught, examples are made

:57:16.:57:19.

and they are punished accordingly so the message goes out that this will

:57:20.:57:24.

not be tolerated. If we do not go down those roads better

:57:25.:57:28.

transparency, of having an efficient tax system which does not leave the

:57:29.:57:33.

loopholes, and thirdly, having a proper method of enforcement, I

:57:34.:57:39.

believe this will go on and on. I want to follow the honourable

:57:40.:57:44.

member from East Antrim on a point in relation to enforcement. He has

:57:45.:57:49.

touched on the tax offices in Northern Ireland. The office in my

:57:50.:57:53.

own constituency is due for closure in the coming years. It has lost

:57:54.:57:58.

work that it was doing, including recovery in relation to overseas

:57:59.:58:03.

taxation. But I do not want to join everybody else who has made this

:58:04.:58:09.

debate more about the general tax policy of the government, or the

:58:10.:58:13.

record of government in terms of taxation. But the public would

:58:14.:58:17.

expect us to be debating properly is the enormous imprecations from the

:58:18.:58:21.

Panama papers. I am not going to conflate the issues that arise

:58:22.:58:29.

around the syndicated global grand larceny represented in those papers

:58:30.:58:33.

with the questions in personal taxation for the Prime Minister or

:58:34.:58:38.

indeed anybody else. I would prefer if in this debate and in other

:58:39.:58:44.

debates, between now and the global anti-corruption Summit which the

:58:45.:58:47.

Prime Minister is hosting, that our concentration would be on the sorts

:58:48.:58:51.

of issues we would have been discussing anyway. We heard from

:58:52.:58:54.

people on the government benches much about the government record in

:58:55.:58:59.

terms of changing tax thresholds and what is happening to the taxes of

:59:00.:59:03.

the wealthy in this country. We have heard arguments on the other side.

:59:04.:59:08.

Let's address the global implications of the Panama papers.

:59:09.:59:12.

In terms of the larceny that is involved, that is represented here,

:59:13.:59:16.

these people have avoided or evaded these taxes. This is not a

:59:17.:59:22.

victimless duplicity or deceit. Other people are left to pay those

:59:23.:59:25.

taxes. Other firms are having to pay those taxes to make good exchequer

:59:26.:59:33.

is. Other people are losing out in services or salaries because the

:59:34.:59:37.

taxation is not there to support services to the levels needed to

:59:38.:59:41.

improve the development of infrastructure. People are losing

:59:42.:59:46.

out. That is not the politics of envy. That is the politics of

:59:47.:59:51.

reality, of social justice. That is the politics of, we should be in a

:59:52.:59:54.

world in the 21st century where we're role in this together. That is

:59:55.:59:58.

why fairness and taxation is so important. The honourable member is

:59:59.:00:06.

making his usually powerful speech. Christian aid recently said that an

:00:07.:00:09.

oil company in Uganda approached Mossack Fonseca trying to avoid

:00:10.:00:17.

paying ?400 million worth of taxes in Uganda itself. That is the

:00:18.:00:21.

equivalent of the Ugandan health care service. It is not a victimless

:00:22.:00:27.

crime when these taxes are avoided. Would he agree? I absolutely do and

:00:28.:00:32.

that example empathy -- illustrates the point well. I want to

:00:33.:00:36.

acknowledge the work of Oxfam, Christian aid and other

:00:37.:00:40.

organisations in making sure we have more awareness of these issues. I

:00:41.:00:43.

want to acknowledge not least the work of the all-party group against

:00:44.:00:49.

corruption and the contribution of the honourable member for Newcastle.

:00:50.:00:57.

But also the contribution of the honourable member from Amber Valley,

:00:58.:01:01.

who is not able to join this debate but has had a keen interest in a lot

:01:02.:01:05.

of the issues that have now surfaced in more dramatic form with the

:01:06.:01:09.

Panama papers. It would have been interesting if we had heard from the

:01:10.:01:13.

Minister whether or not government were actually shocked by the Panama

:01:14.:01:17.

papers. We know there was the issue about the Prime Minister. But in

:01:18.:01:24.

terms of the other issues, did the government regard this as part of

:01:25.:01:27.

the course? Did they know what was going on anyway? Was that informing

:01:28.:01:33.

their measures against corruption? Did it tell them something they were

:01:34.:01:38.

not aware of. --? What worries have that other that what else is going

:01:39.:01:43.

on. --? We heard from the Prime Minister today that the agencies

:01:44.:01:47.

dealing with this our independent. Somebody somewhere should be asking

:01:48.:01:52.

them, is this what you knew? Are you doing anything in response to this?

:01:53.:01:57.

Journalists are being asked to give the information. Is anybody else

:01:58.:02:00.

being pursued for the information? Is anybody having their doorknobs or

:02:01.:02:05.

their collar felt? It seems not. When the Prime Minister is meant to

:02:06.:02:09.

be hosting a global anti-corruption Summit, he could be showing himself

:02:10.:02:12.

more active now in response to those papers. Now that he has dealt with

:02:13.:02:17.

the issues around himself, he can address the wider issues. Maybe last

:02:18.:02:24.

week if he had addressed the wider issues, people might have thought

:02:25.:02:27.

that was issue avoidance on his part. He needs to be addressing

:02:28.:02:32.

those issues now. If that Summit is to be worthwhile. It is particularly

:02:33.:02:36.

disappointing to hear the Prime Minister being the spin doctor now

:02:37.:02:41.

for the Tory territories in relation to their role. I cannot believe it

:02:42.:02:46.

is not a tax haven. He is saying that because they have moved a bit

:02:47.:02:49.

on what he said in 2013, he was gone to ask them... That that was enough.

:02:50.:02:57.

There has been progress. Indications are possible progress. The Prime

:02:58.:03:00.

Minister should not be letting up the pressure on the Crown

:03:01.:03:04.

Dependencies. He should be ratcheting up the pressure on them

:03:05.:03:07.

and everybody else. And he should be doing that by showing a stronger

:03:08.:03:12.

response here in relation to our own agencies in relation to these

:03:13.:03:15.

issues. There has been much in the debate today about the difference

:03:16.:03:20.

between avoidance and evasion. Let's be clear. We know when we see the

:03:21.:03:26.

syndicated effort that has gone into the artifice that is involved in

:03:27.:03:31.

some of these shells and shams and scams, we know the architecture of

:03:32.:03:35.

avoidance is actually fitted with the engineering of evasion. There is

:03:36.:03:42.

not that much of a difference. We need stronger global action as well.

:03:43.:03:48.

That is where I would have two ask the government again to reconsider

:03:49.:03:52.

their attitude to some possible global measures because in the past

:03:53.:03:56.

when they said they wanted to lead against corruption and were putting

:03:57.:04:01.

taxation central stage, they also said they face against any notion of

:04:02.:04:06.

a financial transaction tax. If there was a financial transaction

:04:07.:04:09.

tax at a global level, it would make sure there was more monitoring of

:04:10.:04:15.

what goes on these different schemes and moves when companies appeared to

:04:16.:04:18.

trade with shadow versions of themselves, and when shells are

:04:19.:04:22.

registered in different places. The fact of there being a uniform

:04:23.:04:28.

position would bring some tracing to some of this and bring more of the

:04:29.:04:32.

transparency that people say is needed as the answer here. What is

:04:33.:04:42.

being done, what is being done in terms of recovery? The government

:04:43.:04:46.

have a pretty pedestrian attitude in relation to that. They seem to be

:04:47.:04:50.

more concerned about the media flap in relation to the Prime Minister

:04:51.:04:53.

being embroiled in some of this. Now they think that is over, they seem

:04:54.:04:58.

to be taking it very pedestrian cross -- approach to an issue

:04:59.:05:01.

scandalising many and burdening people in poor countries in the

:05:02.:05:08.

world. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I

:05:09.:05:13.

start by thanking someone needs organisations that have been

:05:14.:05:18.

involved in supporting the enquiry as it has gone forward on the issue

:05:19.:05:25.

of the Panama papers. Oxfam, global witness, transparency International,

:05:26.:05:28.

Christian aid and others, who I think I've played an invaluable

:05:29.:05:33.

role. May I also thank all honourable members for their

:05:34.:05:37.

contributions to today's debate. The honourable members for Dundee East,

:05:38.:05:43.

Torbay, South Suffolk, Newark, East Antrim, Glasgow South, but also

:05:44.:05:49.

honourable members on this side, including my honourable friend the

:05:50.:05:52.

member is for Blaydon, Newcastle, Oldham East, all of whom have raised

:05:53.:06:03.

very important issues. We have heard about tax not being a donation,

:06:04.:06:09.

being a legal requirement, needing to take the nonpayment of taxing

:06:10.:06:13.

credibly seriously. The work of the public Accounts Committee also being

:06:14.:06:18.

incredibly vital in this area. We heard from the honourable member, my

:06:19.:06:23.

honourable friend, the member for Newcastle, talking about this being

:06:24.:06:27.

a pivotal moment. A moment the government must not squander. Also

:06:28.:06:32.

talking about the challenges in prosecutions due to the complexity

:06:33.:06:36.

of the structures of multinational companies and how we need to extend

:06:37.:06:41.

our thinking and the law further to tackling wider issues of economic

:06:42.:06:42.

crime. This is a moment that we must seize.

:06:43.:06:55.

We have had the public and the media who have not always been engaged on

:06:56.:07:02.

this issue at this scale. There are now seeing the scale of injustice

:07:03.:07:07.

and across the world. The Panama papers have lifted the lid and I

:07:08.:07:11.

believe there is now no going back. We have had revelations that provide

:07:12.:07:15.

concrete examples of what we have all suspected and that have exposed

:07:16.:07:24.

the details of the worst excesses of our international financial system.

:07:25.:07:27.

At the heart of this issue now is a matter of public trust and

:07:28.:07:31.

confidence in the fairness of our tax system. People rightly say I pay

:07:32.:07:38.

my fears she towards the cost of vital public services. I can't dodge

:07:39.:07:45.

or negotiate with tax authorities, so why should wealthy individuals

:07:46.:07:48.

and companies who can get away with not paying their fair share be able

:07:49.:07:57.

to do so? And the fact is that for all the claims we have had from the

:07:58.:08:01.

government, people don't think that they have done enough to tackle the

:08:02.:08:06.

problems here or in the overseas territories or Crown dependencies we

:08:07.:08:13.

have responsibility for. This is a global issue. Did need a global

:08:14.:08:18.

response. Today's debate reflects the widespread public view that we

:08:19.:08:22.

should be seeing individuals and companies paying their fair share.

:08:23.:08:27.

And calls upon the government to implement Labour's tax transparency

:08:28.:08:34.

in force in programme. Labour has a strong record on tax evasion and

:08:35.:08:38.

avoidance. The measures we introduced while we were in power

:08:39.:08:42.

will still raise ten times as much over the coming years as those

:08:43.:08:47.

introduced by the Tories in the last Parliament. And that is the

:08:48.:08:50.

conclusion of analysis by The Financial Times. We know as well

:08:51.:08:54.

that the government over the last week have had the chance to step up

:08:55.:08:59.

and take a stronger lead. And what is disappointing is that they have

:09:00.:09:05.

failed to do so. The government's Parcelforce and other measures are

:09:06.:09:08.

now a missed opportunity to end secrecy ahead of next month's

:09:09.:09:14.

anti-corruption Summit. The Prime Minister who in 2013 wrote to

:09:15.:09:19.

overseas territories and Crown dependencies Colin for greater

:09:20.:09:23.

transparency and fully resourced central registries, he wrote again.

:09:24.:09:30.

We have had written questions and oral questions. Now we receive it is

:09:31.:09:35.

not the government's intention to push the issue of public registers

:09:36.:09:39.

further. Instead the information that is now agreed on will only be

:09:40.:09:45.

available to UK law enforcement and tax authorities. The beneficial

:09:46.:09:49.

ownership agreement with the Cayman Islands only allows designated

:09:50.:09:54.

Cayman Islands officials to directly obtain and provide details of

:09:55.:09:59.

beneficial ownership of companies incorporate in the key bash in the

:10:00.:10:05.

Cayman Islands to the UK. The Swiss tax agreement has raised just a

:10:06.:10:09.

fraction of the 5.3 billion promised. The government are very

:10:10.:10:14.

good spin, but their record does not stand up to scrutiny. What is

:10:15.:10:20.

particularly stark about the Panama revelations is that more than half

:10:21.:10:23.

the companies named in the papers were registered in the UK Government

:10:24.:10:29.

tax havens. That is something we should be ashamed of. That is why we

:10:30.:10:36.

believe the UK should be leading the global campaign, fighting aggressive

:10:37.:10:41.

tax avoidance and evasion, and instead we are lagging behind. There

:10:42.:10:48.

are a number of other issues that are vital. We have talked about the

:10:49.:10:54.

need for an independent enquiry. Wilder has been moves across the

:10:55.:10:59.

world and there is an important meeting in Paris today organised by

:11:00.:11:05.

the joint international tax shelter and collaboration network. We know

:11:06.:11:20.

there is an issue effectively regarding theft. Every year, about

:11:21.:11:26.

$200 billion of untaxed income is taken out of our countries by

:11:27.:11:30.

international corporations operating in their territory who are avoiding

:11:31.:11:36.

paying tax. We also know that there is an urgent issue of speed. The

:11:37.:11:46.

issue highlighted also by the chair of the network highlighted today the

:11:47.:11:49.

need for immediate information exchange and these issues should now

:11:50.:11:55.

be tackled at speed. Far from seeing the government keep that call, we

:11:56.:12:00.

see a government that continues to slow down, rather than accelerate

:12:01.:12:05.

its action to tackle tax avoidance. We believe that we have a lot more

:12:06.:12:13.

to do. That we need to see good greater parliamentary scrutiny,

:12:14.:12:19.

specialise tax enforcement units, greater company transparency with

:12:20.:12:22.

companies that want to get for public sector contracts. Then need

:12:23.:12:30.

for a greater cooperation with European partners. This highlights

:12:31.:12:44.

the importance of our membership of the European Union in tackling these

:12:45.:12:47.

complex issues which do not stop at national borders. We have called on

:12:48.:12:53.

the government to take much greater action and do so faster. We have

:12:54.:12:59.

called for stricter minimum standards for Crown dependencies.

:13:00.:13:09.

The Financial Secretary raise this issue as a reason for not pushing

:13:10.:13:14.

for public registers of beneficial owners. While I conclude now, let me

:13:15.:13:24.

add one more point. On Monday, it was said that we on this side of the

:13:25.:13:30.

House should snap out of our synthetic indignation. The risk he

:13:31.:13:34.

said was a house stuffed full of low achievers who hate enterprise.

:13:35.:13:41.

Regrettably, the Financial Secretary appeared to back him up. This is not

:13:42.:13:46.

about begrudging those who succeed in business. It is a basic question

:13:47.:13:50.

of fairness in our society. I believe that this is an issue on

:13:51.:13:56.

which the rich and per who believe in fairness are united. When we

:13:57.:14:01.

shirk responsibility to crack down on tax havens, we are letting our

:14:02.:14:06.

country and constituents down. That is why I urge the House to join us

:14:07.:14:13.

in voting for Labour's opposed measures today. I am delighted to be

:14:14.:14:24.

given the opportunity to outline the action the government is proud to

:14:25.:14:29.

have taken to tackle tax evasion, tax avoidance and aggressive tax

:14:30.:14:33.

planning. Nor government of this country has done more to ensure that

:14:34.:14:37.

people and companies pay the taxes that they all and to crack down on

:14:38.:14:42.

those who don't play by the rules. That is why from day one we have

:14:43.:14:48.

introduced a measure after measure to close down the tax loopholes we

:14:49.:14:52.

inherited. To increase the punishment for those who break the

:14:53.:14:58.

law. To drive forward tax transparency and make sure the UK is

:14:59.:15:02.

at the forefront of the new global standards. To make sure the

:15:03.:15:07.

International tax rules are fit for the 21st-century. To reform regimes

:15:08.:15:12.

in overseas territories and Crown dependencies. And to increase the

:15:13.:15:20.

powers of HMRC to collect the money to pay for the public services on

:15:21.:15:26.

which we all depend. Individuals and companies should pay their fair

:15:27.:15:32.

share of tax. The activities that have been taking place in Panama are

:15:33.:15:37.

already the subject of intensive HMRC investigation. It is clearly

:15:38.:15:45.

imperative to examine the leak data very closely. That is why we are

:15:46.:15:55.

setting up in providing fun -- funding to sift through the millions

:15:56.:16:04.

of pages of data. We also attach great importance to giving HMRC the

:16:05.:16:09.

resources to protect our taxpayers. That is why at last year's summer

:16:10.:16:15.

budget, we announced an extra ?800 million to fund additional work to

:16:16.:16:21.

tackle evasion and noncompliance by 2020 and 2021. That will enable HMRC

:16:22.:16:30.

to recover tax over the next five years. Thanks to this government's

:16:31.:16:39.

action, our register of company beneficial ownership will go live in

:16:40.:16:45.

June. We are the first country to have such a list free to access to

:16:46.:16:51.

anyone. We are in courage and those who bid on public contracts in

:16:52.:16:56.

England to provide beneficial ownership information as well. We

:16:57.:17:00.

heard from a range of speakers today. The Member for Hayes and

:17:01.:17:05.

Harlington has a new-found interest in a topic he asked no questions on

:17:06.:17:10.

during the 13 years of Labour government, but he has managed over

:17:11.:17:16.

the last week to confirm his party as anti aspiration, anti-wealth

:17:17.:17:24.

creation and wanting to create an atmosphere of envy. We heard from

:17:25.:17:30.

the Member for Dundee East who has much more welcoming of the measures

:17:31.:17:34.

the government has brought in and also attacked Labour's lack of

:17:35.:17:38.

action over 13 years. We had an informed speech from the Member for

:17:39.:17:47.

Torbay. And a very interesting speech from the Member for Newcastle

:17:48.:17:52.

upon Tyne North who is chair and founder of the all-party group on

:17:53.:17:57.

anti-corruption. She will be aware of the new legislation we are

:17:58.:18:04.

bringing in. She will want to participate in that consultation

:18:05.:18:08.

regarding that offence. The Member for Suffolk South brought in his

:18:09.:18:11.

expertise in business and highlighted the steps the government

:18:12.:18:22.

have used to help low earners. I am pleased to confirm the amount of 1.8

:18:23.:18:33.

million has been made available. She raised questions about trust. There

:18:34.:18:47.

are many legitimate reasons for creating a trust. The vast majority

:18:48.:18:52.

of trusts across the UK are used for legitimate purposes. Setting up

:18:53.:18:57.

blanket requirement would distract action from areas of most concern,

:18:58.:19:04.

such as Shell companies. The Member for Bracknell suggested abolishing

:19:05.:19:11.

corporation tax completely, something the government is not

:19:12.:19:14.

ready to do at this moment in time. The Member for Newport West made an

:19:15.:19:23.

angry speech including personal attacks on current -- conservative

:19:24.:19:29.

politicians. Then we heard about the Labour Party's politics of envy and

:19:30.:19:35.

our attempts to make the income tax system more progressive. The Member

:19:36.:19:46.

for new work made a very good speech, credible action against

:19:47.:19:52.

corruption and criminality that this government has taken. He drew on his

:19:53.:19:59.

knowledge from the art world. We heard interesting speeches from the

:20:00.:20:04.

Member for Glasgow South. HMRC works closely with Interpol and is indeed

:20:05.:20:09.

finalising the list for the anti-corruption Summit as we speak.

:20:10.:20:12.

In terms of the members from Northern Ireland, we heard helpful

:20:13.:20:22.

contributions from them. In conclusion, this country is leading

:20:23.:20:27.

the way on tackling tax evasion and tax avoidance, bringing in billions

:20:28.:20:34.

from offshore tax evaders. We have made over 40 changes to tax law in

:20:35.:20:39.

the last Parliament alone. For this parliament so far, more than 25 have

:20:40.:20:44.

been announced for legislation. Although the party opposite has

:20:45.:20:48.

suddenly decided to give lectures on tax, I remind the House that when he

:20:49.:20:53.

came into office there were foreign nationals not paying capital gains

:20:54.:20:57.

tax when selling UK property, Private equity managers paying lower

:20:58.:21:02.

rates of tax them their cleaners and rich home-buyers getting away

:21:03.:21:06.

without paying stamp duty by owning homes through companies. We have

:21:07.:21:10.

taken action to fix that. We have increased the amount paid in income

:21:11.:21:20.

tax by the tops 1% from ?31 billion to ?47 billion. We have made our

:21:21.:21:24.

taxes more internationally competitive, we have cut income tax

:21:25.:21:28.

for tens of millions of hard-working people, rewarded aspiration, made

:21:29.:21:33.

the tax system better, fairer and more efficient. That is our record.

:21:34.:21:40.

We are proud of it and I urge the House to vote against today's

:21:41.:21:41.

opposition motion. The question is as on the order

:21:42.:21:57.

paper. Those who see ayes see ayes. And those who say no, see noes. --

:21:58.:22:06.

see ayes -- see noes. The question is as on the order

:22:07.:22:54.

paper. As many of that opinion see aye. To the contrary, see no.

:22:55.:23:16.

Order. Ie company? Order, order. -- are you comfortable. The ayes to the

:23:17.:36:08.

right 266. The noes to the left, 300.

:36:09.:36:17.

The ayes to the right, 266. Nose to the left, 300. The nose have it. Do

:36:18.:36:38.

not get too comfy. We know in opposition motion, related to the

:36:39.:36:47.

white paper. Like an involuntary, I have selected the amendment, and the

:36:48.:36:51.

name of the Prime Minister. It could help, if I explain, this is not an

:36:52.:37:01.

allotted opposition date, the usual procedure, governing the handling of

:37:02.:37:08.

amendments does not apply. After the opposition spokesman has spoken,

:37:09.:37:13.

moving the motion, the minister is going to be called, the debate will

:37:14.:37:20.

take place on the question that the amendment be made. Forward by the

:37:21.:37:30.

question, about the mean motion. I now call Lucy Powell. Thank you Mr

:37:31.:37:38.

Deputy Speaker. I am pleased that we have been able to secure this

:37:39.:37:47.

debate, following the school white paper, causing concern among others,

:37:48.:37:51.

the mean and most controversial proposal, is to force all of the

:37:52.:37:56.

schools to become academies, and many of them, to become multi

:37:57.:38:02.

academy trusts by 2022. It is this proposal that we have focused the

:38:03.:38:06.

debate on, because we believe these clowns are deeply flawed, not

:38:07.:38:11.

supported by evidence, have been causing disruption, and have very

:38:12.:38:17.

few supporters. We have a growing number of people concerned, local

:38:18.:38:24.

government leaders, headteaching unions. It is my intention that

:38:25.:38:32.

today's debate is the opportunity, to air concerns, I will be Secretary

:38:33.:38:37.

of State is going to be listening carefully, not carrying on

:38:38.:38:41.

regardless. Elements of the white paper, that we can support, such as

:38:42.:38:49.

the independent college teaching, but the wholesale academisation, we

:38:50.:38:53.

cannot. The Government plan has been met with such concern, because it is

:38:54.:38:59.

a bad policy, nor evidence base. It is yet another policy from this

:39:00.:39:03.

government that is obsessing, with school structures, instead of

:39:04.:39:08.

standards. And given the pressures being faced by schools today,

:39:09.:39:15.

teacher shortages, cuts to the budgets, first time in 20 years,

:39:16.:39:20.

overhauls, to the curriculum and exams, the idea that heads should be

:39:21.:39:28.

spending energy on this ?1.3 billion top-down reorganisation is at best a

:39:29.:39:32.

distraction, and at worst is going to have a damaging impact on the

:39:33.:39:39.

School standards. I will take... I am grateful to my honourable friend.

:39:40.:39:50.

The point is that the school that I am a governor at, chose to become an

:39:51.:39:56.

Academy, because parents and he just decided that was the best model for

:39:57.:40:09.

should we not respect those who want this. My honourable friend makes a

:40:10.:40:14.

good point, I will, to make that myself, in the speech. Does my

:40:15.:40:27.

honourable friend, not agree, that more importantly, you could have

:40:28.:40:31.

difficulties, with teachers, and it could have been better spent on

:40:32.:40:34.

public services, rather than the ideological. My honourable friend,

:40:35.:40:42.

echos those concerns, made by the union this morning. But the

:40:43.:40:48.

Conservative obsession with school structures, has completely missed

:40:49.:40:52.

the point. Just as we have some excellent academies, we have

:40:53.:40:55.

excellent community schools. Some poor academies, and some poor

:40:56.:41:02.

community schools. We need to build an education system, that provides

:41:03.:41:06.

an excellent education for all of the children, rather than putting

:41:07.:41:10.

one type of school against another. One month has passed since the

:41:11.:41:14.

Chancellor media, but we have yet to get answers to the question why.

:41:15.:41:20.

When schools that want to become academies, can already do so, and

:41:21.:41:27.

skills that the government deems coasting, can be put into Academy

:41:28.:41:30.

chains, why should you be forcing all the others, this is not about

:41:31.:41:39.

improvement, freedom, the multi academy trust model is in its

:41:40.:41:47.

infancy. So, I am going to make some progress. We can look at each of

:41:48.:41:55.

government arguments. They have said this is about school improvements.

:41:56.:41:58.

We can look at the evidence. The vast majority of schools are going

:41:59.:42:03.

to be affected by this policy, primary schools, over 17% already

:42:04.:42:12.

academies. Those that are not, 80%, already rated good or outstanding.

:42:13.:42:21.

At secondary schools, two thirds already academies, more failing than

:42:22.:42:28.

not. Places like Doncaster, for example, all the secondary schools

:42:29.:42:37.

already academies. I thank my honourable friend. Meeting a

:42:38.:42:41.

powerful case. Can she reflect on the performance, at Greenwich,

:42:42.:42:46.

moving from being one of the highest performing education authorities,

:42:47.:42:52.

without the academies as in of a single primary school, and only

:42:53.:42:57.

three secondary schools. That was out forced academies each. Parents

:42:58.:43:03.

are concerned about why they have been removed from the process, not

:43:04.:43:09.

consulted about changes. My honourable friend makes an excellent

:43:10.:43:15.

point. At Coventry, we have another sub situation, the Secretary of

:43:16.:43:23.

State refused to meet me about this, just a couple of years ago, we

:43:24.:43:32.

failed, instead of the intervention, closing one Academy, and starting

:43:33.:43:37.

another. What a waste of resources. My honourable friend makes a good

:43:38.:43:42.

point. And today, Ofsted have reported that the performance of

:43:43.:43:45.

secondary schools at Reading is not strong. Eight out of ten secondary

:43:46.:43:50.

schools at Reading, already academies. Why has she failed to

:43:51.:44:00.

improve these academies? What is the government structure? I'm going to

:44:01.:44:04.

make progress. The government has claimed that we have more children,

:44:05.:44:08.

at good and outstanding skills, than 2010. As proof, that academies Asian

:44:09.:44:22.

leads to improvement. -- can lead. But the truth, the vast majority of

:44:23.:44:26.

those good and outstanding places that children are at, creamery

:44:27.:44:34.

schools. Academies Asian is limited. According to Ofsted, the number of

:44:35.:44:39.

pupils, at inadequate secondary schools has risen by 60% over the

:44:40.:44:44.

last four years. Academies Asian has taken hold significantly. --

:44:45.:44:55.

academisation. This does not withstand any scrutiny. Perhaps that

:44:56.:45:04.

is why the conservative majority, the education select committee,

:45:05.:45:08.

recently concluded after extensive enquiries, that couldn't evidence

:45:09.:45:15.

does not allow us to draw conclusions, whether academies are

:45:16.:45:18.

force for good. No convincing evidence, about the impact of

:45:19.:45:26.

Academy status on attainment. I declare an interest, as a chairman

:45:27.:45:34.

of Goole Academy. We have seen results go from 48% at good and

:45:35.:45:41.

outstanding, to 92%. I agree with some of the funds that have been

:45:42.:45:44.

made, but can she can from the position of the Labour Party, to

:45:45.:45:49.

support Academy schools. The speech has seemed very anti Academy. As I

:45:50.:45:57.

have made clear in my opening remarks, some excellent academies,

:45:58.:46:07.

but the overall evidence is underwhelming at best. I am going to

:46:08.:46:17.

make progress. The Sutton Trust has found some excellent academies, but

:46:18.:46:22.

the majority under performing. Not only is this forced academisation

:46:23.:46:29.

programme zero about school improvement, but it could diminish

:46:30.:46:34.

the capacity for improvement, regional school Commissioners,

:46:35.:46:42.

officials, and local authorities will be shifting almost entirely

:46:43.:46:44.

away from skills that need improvement, to creating trusts,

:46:45.:46:51.

changing the legal status of many schemes, most already performing

:46:52.:46:57.

well. The schools Commissioner and Department for Education have not

:46:58.:47:04.

even a choir powers, -- acquired the powers. So was that legislation a

:47:05.:47:12.

complete with tough time? -- waste of time? She is talking about

:47:13.:47:20.

coasting skills, and the NHS, we had organisation that nobody had voted

:47:21.:47:25.

for, we have seen performance go down, people dealing with this

:47:26.:47:34.

organisation, does she worry we are going in the same direction?

:47:35.:47:38.

Something nobody has voted for, and the achievement of the children,

:47:39.:47:44.

falling away? Excellent point. The government seems to enjoy these

:47:45.:47:48.

reorganisations, nor are ideas. I will go back to some of the

:47:49.:47:52.

concerns, about the performance of Academy chains. But before that, I

:47:53.:47:58.

want to look at another one of the government's arguments about forced

:47:59.:48:05.

academisation, it is about autonomy, and freedoms. What choice, one size

:48:06.:48:12.

fits all? What is autonomous, about forcing highly performing schools,

:48:13.:48:18.

into an Academy gene? Can she promised, every outstanding school

:48:19.:48:22.

leader, who wants to remain, can do so? She cannot. What about the

:48:23.:48:30.

small, village schools? They cannot be stand-alone academies. I see some

:48:31.:48:38.

nods from the bench opposite. Even the Secretary of State, and one of

:48:39.:48:47.

four men -- her main allies, described this as Stalinist. Lastly,

:48:48.:49:02.

give way. I am extremely grateful to my honourable friend. She talks

:49:03.:49:08.

about autonomy, democratic control, we want cooperative schools,

:49:09.:49:14.

actually, parents, pupils, leaders working together. Why does she think

:49:15.:49:19.

they are going to be forced to academies? My honourable friend

:49:20.:49:26.

meets another excellent point. But in any case, curriculum freedom, she

:49:27.:49:34.

and I both know the autonomy does not exist. Over the past five years,

:49:35.:49:40.

we have seen parts of the correctable, personally drafted by

:49:41.:49:45.

the secretary, signed off by Cabinet ministers. This sort of dictating on

:49:46.:49:53.

the curriculum has been putting the screws, in straight jackets. We have

:49:54.:49:58.

seen the narrowing of curriculums, schools hoping to improve Ofsted

:49:59.:50:02.

judgments, on measurements. The origins of the Academy programme, it

:50:03.:50:11.

was about new partners and innovation, but the wholesale

:50:12.:50:13.

academisation programme, is going to treat a one-dimensional system. It

:50:14.:50:19.

is no wonder, the Chief Executive of England's largest Academy gene, has

:50:20.:50:27.

admitted, even less autonomy for schools, than local authority

:50:28.:50:30.

schools. If the right honourable gentleman wants to comment on that,

:50:31.:50:36.

more than welcome. Thank you very much. Being generous. She has asked

:50:37.:50:46.

us to support the motion, in her name, this came and Prime Minister's

:50:47.:50:54.

Questions, 3.3.1 of the paper makes it clear. Clearly, not the

:50:55.:51:02.

opportunity, to clarify, which he take the opportunity, to strike that

:51:03.:51:07.

from the motion? I am happy to clarify that the government proposes

:51:08.:51:11.

to move the requirement, if you want to have a semantic debate, it is an

:51:12.:51:17.

the white paper, on the same page. She can have the opportunity on

:51:18.:51:20.

that, in a minute. I'm going to carry on.

:51:21.:51:27.

It may come as a surprise to many members opposite that the

:51:28.:51:34.

government's free school and economy agenda has shifted in policy and

:51:35.:51:38.

practice away from stand-alone academies to Matt or chain models.

:51:39.:51:43.

This was clear in the government's White Paper. The guidance issued

:51:44.:51:52.

yesterday said, and I quote, "We expect that most schools will form

:51:53.:51:58.

or joint mats as we become academies". There is evidence that

:51:59.:52:02.

schools do better working collaboratively. The evidence of the

:52:03.:52:09.

performance of change so far is next. There are some notably good

:52:10.:52:13.

academy chains, but there are many more that are unaltered. Only 20

:52:14.:52:21.

have been assessed and just three have been more effective than

:52:22.:52:24.

non-academies. I am not going to give way again. Sir Michael Wilshaw

:52:25.:52:30.

only a week before the budget wrote to the secretary of state

:52:31.:52:34.

highlighting serious weaknesses in academy chains. He said... Academy

:52:35.:52:40.

chains are worse than the worst performing local authorities they

:52:41.:52:44.

seem to replace. To continue with forced academisation of all schools

:52:45.:52:49.

after such a damning letter is frankly irresponsible. There are

:52:50.:52:54.

many questions here. Academy chains are in their infancy and clearly

:52:55.:52:59.

require a law, but the government want them to take an thousands more

:53:00.:53:09.

schools. One of the main reasons that the track record of many chains

:53:10.:53:14.

is not good is because there is a dearth of any real oversight or

:53:15.:53:23.

accountability. I share the concern expressed, when one said we are in

:53:24.:53:28.

danger of creating distant, unaccountable bureaucracy is for

:53:29.:53:33.

schools. But the Department for Education, via its small group of

:53:34.:53:42.

school commissioners, can provide accountability, that is for the

:53:43.:53:46.

birds. It is impossible and undesirable. It seems hell-bent on

:53:47.:53:55.

cutting out parents from having any say over how their child's School is

:53:56.:54:01.

run. Let's talk about abolishing parent governors and removing any

:54:02.:54:09.

role for parents in choosing whether and what type of academy this child

:54:10.:54:18.

-- their child's school has become has been met with outcry. I

:54:19.:54:23.

understand he wants to clarify that parent's can still be governors. But

:54:24.:54:31.

she knows there will not be plans to help them on. I do not pick this is

:54:32.:54:35.

the clarification parents are looking for. Perhaps she wants to

:54:36.:54:39.

take this opportunity to go further. She and I both know that, in a world

:54:40.:54:45.

of academy chains, the role of individual school governing bodies

:54:46.:54:49.

is greatly diminished and key decisions are taken by the two new

:54:50.:54:52.

levels above school governing bodies, the board of Trustees and

:54:53.:54:56.

the member board above that. Bodies which are all too often appointed by

:54:57.:55:04.

the head or Chief Executive they are hoping to hold to account. If they

:55:05.:55:12.

want to avoid more scandals and if schools are to genuinely be held to

:55:13.:55:17.

account, we need a much more robust governance regime that remote trust

:55:18.:55:27.

-- trustee boards are appointed. There are also very real issues on

:55:28.:55:32.

the ground about accountability and responsibility for excluding

:55:33.:55:37.

children placing children with other policies, all of which have very

:55:38.:55:43.

real problems under this fragmented system. It also doesn't meet the

:55:44.:55:50.

needs of the local communities. We cannot have a situation like that.

:55:51.:56:01.

One place, where the last ale a level provision is about to be lost

:56:02.:56:07.

taken by one school. There has to be a better approach that involves

:56:08.:56:11.

school leaders, councils as well as parents. And, for a government

:56:12.:56:17.

claiming to lead the devolution revolution, their centralisation of

:56:18.:56:22.

schools is wrong-headed and contradictory. In places like my

:56:23.:56:26.

own, the Chancellor talks of releasing combined authority to

:56:27.:56:33.

create a Northern Powerhouse. That the skills of the next generation

:56:34.:56:38.

are being taken away at the same time shows what a sham. So this

:56:39.:56:45.

leads me to one last argument the government seems to make. That it

:56:46.:56:49.

would be simpler to have won funding system. This is nonsense and

:56:50.:56:54.

certainly does not support the ?1.3 billion reorganisation of the school

:56:55.:56:58.

system is being proposed. It is disingenuous of the government to

:56:59.:57:03.

link this proposal is to be fair funding consultation. There is a

:57:04.:57:07.

broad support for this model, as long as deprived areas and areas

:57:08.:57:11.

which require improvements to not lose out. Forcing all schools to

:57:12.:57:15.

become academies does not need to be linked to this. I will give way one

:57:16.:57:23.

last time. I think she is absolutely right to say we should not be

:57:24.:57:31.

debating certain things. But when you reach a certain point of

:57:32.:57:37.

becoming academies, it is sensible to have a discussion about what

:57:38.:57:43.

future role there should be four assistance as we understand them. It

:57:44.:57:49.

seems we have arrived at that tipping point and it's right to have

:57:50.:58:00.

an -- a debate. -- for LEAs. With primary schools, only 7% of schools

:58:01.:58:06.

are academies and a longer-term look would be welcome, but an arbitrary

:58:07.:58:10.

timetable, set by the Chancellor and Prime Minister as part of their

:58:11.:58:13.

legacy, I think is a total falsehood. Anyway, we have had for

:58:14.:58:19.

decades a multifaceted funding arrangement for our schools and

:58:20.:58:23.

there is no real reason this cannot continue. To summarise, the proposal

:58:24.:58:29.

to force all schools to become academies or part of chains is

:58:30.:58:34.

costly, which schools do not want or need. At a time when heads are

:58:35.:58:38.

dealing with some very big and real challenges, teacher shortages, cuts

:58:39.:58:45.

to budgets, flux and chaos in assessment and insufficient school

:58:46.:58:50.

places, to ask them to take time out to change their legal status and

:58:51.:58:54.

become an academy against their wish is wrong and will impact on

:58:55.:58:58.

standards. This agenda is not about school improvement, because most of

:58:59.:59:01.

the schools affected are already good or outstanding. It's not about

:59:02.:59:07.

more autonomy or choice, as a one size fits all approach is being

:59:08.:59:11.

forced. But what about parents, as they are being cut out of the

:59:12.:59:16.

picture and not devolution, but centralisation. And there are very

:59:17.:59:20.

real and serious concerns about capacity, oversight, accountability

:59:21.:59:25.

and her plans. There is a growing alliance of heads and governors and

:59:26.:59:29.

parents, teachers and politicians from all parties and many of the

:59:30.:59:34.

original advocates of the academy programme against forced wholesale

:59:35.:59:39.

academisation. This government, the government which used to say they

:59:40.:59:43.

were all for choice, who professes to be about standards, which claims

:59:44.:59:48.

to be on the side of parents and schools seems to be ploughing on

:59:49.:59:52.

regardless of about a single coherent argument to support them,

:59:53.:59:57.

nor a shred of credible evidence. They do still have time to listen,

:59:58.:00:02.

to pause and reflect and today's debate gives them a chance to do

:00:03.:00:06.

that and I commend this motion to the house. The question is as on the

:00:07.:00:15.

order paper. I call Nicky Morgan to move the amendment. I will be

:00:16.:00:21.

starting the five-minute limit. Thank you very much indeed.

:00:22.:00:30.

Education is at the heart of this government's mission, because we all

:00:31.:00:34.

know that a good education transforms a child's future. Our

:00:35.:00:40.

white paper sets out our ambition to deliver real social justice by

:00:41.:00:44.

ensuring every child gets an excellent organisation. The motion

:00:45.:00:48.

set up by the opposition is a deliberate misinterpretation of our

:00:49.:00:52.

proposals to transform schools. As we have heard, it contains at least

:00:53.:00:59.

two errors in it, including an parent governors. I am afraid that

:01:00.:01:04.

the interventions from the lady are starting to follow a familiar

:01:05.:01:06.

pattern of scaremongering and ignoring the achievements of the

:01:07.:01:10.

teaching profession and education systems. I know that since her

:01:11.:01:17.

appointment she has yet to propose a single positive idea. We didn't hear

:01:18.:01:23.

any more today as to how we raise standards across England's schools.

:01:24.:01:30.

I will take the intervention. I also much late my friend for bringing

:01:31.:01:35.

this debate today. I wonder if she would address what we in my

:01:36.:01:43.

constituency think are the three most pressing problems, recruitment

:01:44.:01:46.

and retention of good-quality teachers, particularly in some

:01:47.:01:53.

subjects. Also the need to build sufficient secondary school places

:01:54.:01:58.

in time for 2017, which the education funding agency are the

:01:59.:02:04.

cause of delay for. And the need to ensure our children have the skills

:02:05.:02:08.

for employment markets locally when they leave. And... Can I say to her

:02:09.:02:17.

I am delighted she's engaging in the issues, which have real concern to

:02:18.:02:22.

her constituency. And I do not know whether she has had a chance to beat

:02:23.:02:27.

all of the paper, but many of the answers, I will come onto

:02:28.:02:31.

recruitment in a moment, this government, this party has spent ?23

:02:32.:02:39.

billion so far on building new accommodation. 600,000 more school

:02:40.:02:46.

places... And I am going to finish answering. And I hope she is also

:02:47.:02:52.

engaged with the new enterprise advisor in her area, who is doing

:02:53.:02:56.

exactly what she said about engaging young people in careers. I am going

:02:57.:03:04.

to make some progress. I do need to ask, given the drafting of the

:03:05.:03:08.

motion, how much the Shadow Education Secretary has read,

:03:09.:03:12.

because only one of the eight chapters is concerned with every

:03:13.:03:16.

school becoming an academy. It is not a schools White Paper, it is

:03:17.:03:27.

not, as she stated. It is an education White Paper. I haven't

:03:28.:03:30.

heard anything on the other seven chapters. About our vision to see

:03:31.:03:40.

Educational Excellence Everywhere. And to set high expectations for

:03:41.:03:44.

every child with a world leading curriculum. I'm grateful. I am a

:03:45.:03:53.

supporter of the academies programme and the experienced in my

:03:54.:03:57.

constituency is largely positive. I am disappointed to see the

:03:58.:04:01.

opposition both cold one of their proudest innovations. As a

:04:02.:04:05.

conservative, I also believe in choice. Could she outlined to me the

:04:06.:04:12.

downside of allowing academies to migrate organically or schools to

:04:13.:04:17.

migrate organically if they choose to two academy status, rather than

:04:18.:04:27.

forcing a compulsive and arbitrary status. He is right to ask and we

:04:28.:04:31.

are allowing six years will be changed to be made. He will

:04:32.:04:36.

recognise the benefits of allowing front-line professionals, two run

:04:37.:04:46.

their schools. Let me take one more. Like most on the side, I am a great

:04:47.:04:52.

supporter of academies. They have been a great success in my

:04:53.:04:57.

constituency. Will she say something about the capacity of small primary

:04:58.:05:00.

schools, particularly in oral areas to be able to make this change? I

:05:01.:05:07.

absolutely well. And I recognise that there are challenges for

:05:08.:05:12.

smaller schools in terms of taking on the responsibilities. -- rural

:05:13.:05:27.

areas. On the issue of parents, what conclusion are they meant to come to

:05:28.:05:32.

when on page 65 the White Paper says the role of parents is crucial. Our

:05:33.:05:42.

approach puts parents and children first, not through symbolic

:05:43.:05:44.

representation, but through engagement with schools. What

:05:45.:05:48.

conclusion they meant to come to, when of governors, parent governors,

:05:49.:05:54.

over three decades is wrapped up in the word symbolic? The conclusion I

:05:55.:06:02.

will come onto is the fact that we want parents not just to be engaged

:06:03.:06:07.

by governing bodies, but by councils and the ability to make complaints

:06:08.:06:11.

and to be involved in the education and aware of how their child is

:06:12.:06:19.

taught. I am going to make some progress. The truth is, as the

:06:20.:06:25.

amendment makes clear, there is no silver bullet to making

:06:26.:06:29.

improvements. In effort and innovation is required on every

:06:30.:06:32.

front and that is what we have done over the past 60 years. Since 2010,

:06:33.:06:38.

we have seen 1.4 million balk pupils in good and outstanding schools,

:06:39.:06:42.

because of our reforms. Translated into reality by an outstanding

:06:43.:06:47.

teaching profession. To raise standards and free heads and

:06:48.:06:50.

teachers to run schools in a way that works for their students. For

:06:51.:06:57.

all we have unlocked, we have not got excellence everywhere and that

:06:58.:07:01.

everywhere is non-negotiable. I will take one more.

:07:02.:07:10.

Fiscal studies have estimated that schools are going to lose funding,

:07:11.:07:16.

over the next five years, so what is she going to say to parents, who

:07:17.:07:26.

think that the cost of academies is going to put more pressure on the

:07:27.:07:33.

schools. Those members need to refresh their maths. Make

:07:34.:07:40.

calculations, completely wrong. We want to make sure that everywhere,

:07:41.:07:48.

is filled. The white paper makes clear, that we have the most

:07:49.:07:53.

qualified workforce, in the country's history, but we want more

:07:54.:08:05.

support. I was simply going to see, Mr Speaker, does my rate honourable

:08:06.:08:10.

friend not think it is extraordinary, that this paper 's

:08:11.:08:16.

volume of noise, not one person has had the courage to stand up, and

:08:17.:08:21.

there was that something is totally inadequate, that we are trying to

:08:22.:08:30.

ban the role in parents. Every single secondary school in my

:08:31.:08:34.

constituency is an Academy, and they have parents on the board. Excellent

:08:35.:08:45.

point. My honourable friend is absolutely correct. Two errors in

:08:46.:08:53.

the motions. We are absolutely not abolishing the role of parents. And

:08:54.:08:58.

we're not going to be forcing all the skills, to join multi academy

:08:59.:09:06.

school trusts. This could be a semantic argument, but does it not

:09:07.:09:13.

say in the white paper that she is removing the requirement, for parent

:09:14.:09:29.

governors? Yes or no? I just want to remain... If you are going to ask a

:09:30.:09:36.

question, you need to listen to the answer. I am grateful to you. The

:09:37.:09:47.

Shadow Education Secretary motion has said this is not the white

:09:48.:09:58.

paper, proposing the removal, of parents from governing bodies. It

:09:59.:10:09.

does not. If the honourable lady cannot put them in, she needs to go

:10:10.:10:14.

back and do English lessons. I am going to make progress. It is

:10:15.:10:21.

important, honourable hear what is in the white paper. We want to

:10:22.:10:34.

establish a new framework for development, on a par with other

:10:35.:10:38.

professions. I am going to set out what is in the white paper, for the

:10:39.:10:43.

benefit of other members, some of whom on the opposite dangers have

:10:44.:10:51.

not read it. Honestly, I am not going to give way. They are deaf. Mr

:10:52.:10:57.

Deputy Speaker, the white paper outlines the commitment, to make

:10:58.:11:09.

sure it is committed. Yes. Might need a cup of tea. I want to hear

:11:10.:11:21.

both sides. If we can't hear it, what about people out there? It is

:11:22.:11:25.

an important debate, affecting all the constituents, whatever side. The

:11:26.:11:33.

white paper, it a plane teachers are going to be trained, funding, fairly

:11:34.:11:44.

distributed, so that the receive the same level, we want commitments, so

:11:45.:11:50.

that every single changed, receives that, supporting those for whatever

:11:51.:11:53.

reason have fallen out of mainstream education. And we have bold new

:11:54.:11:59.

strategy, that all members should welcome. To tackle areas of chronic

:12:00.:12:08.

underperformance, targeting improvement support, from National

:12:09.:12:11.

education, to teaching skills, the teaching service, areas that need

:12:12.:12:18.

them most. I am grateful to the Secretary of State.

:12:19.:12:30.

The last sixth form A level provision has been withdrawn,

:12:31.:12:34.

concern about this issue, could she explain, why she has refused to meet

:12:35.:12:44.

my honourable friend, and myself, to discuss concerns? Of course, we will

:12:45.:12:53.

meet them. The school minister agreed. The Labour Academy

:12:54.:12:59.

programme, transformed. That is kind. As an MP from Hampshire, Edie

:13:00.:13:08.

Falco Saint of schools, its standing. The concerns, expressed by

:13:09.:13:16.

teachers, locally, it is confusion. My concern, I am sure she can

:13:17.:13:27.

combat, we must not allow the bad to be the enemy. The numbers,

:13:28.:13:33.

converting to academies, relatively low, any reason why Hampshire should

:13:34.:13:40.

not create a new service, can already continue to be delivered?

:13:41.:13:51.

Absolutely right to say, new role for local authorities, to set-top

:13:52.:13:57.

trusts, provides services and build on the excellent. But I will set

:13:58.:14:04.

out, why rethink by schools run by the front-line professionals is the

:14:05.:14:10.

most sustainable model for all of the pupils. I am going to make

:14:11.:14:16.

progress, a lot of people want to speak, and because of the noise I

:14:17.:14:19.

have not been able to set out what is inside the white paper. Why not

:14:20.:14:26.

spread the transformation that we have seen from the academies, to

:14:27.:14:32.

enable excellent provision for all children's. We saw, autonomy, giving

:14:33.:14:46.

strong sponsors the freedom of flexibility, and no reason, why did

:14:47.:14:52.

an outstanding leaders should not have that as well. We want to Michu

:14:53.:14:58.

that schools are going to be run by those who know them best, enabling

:14:59.:15:06.

cooperation, giving parents more of say, moving over the next six years,

:15:07.:15:15.

to meet every school and Academy. No doubt, we all want the best for the

:15:16.:15:21.

children. And at Dorset, we have both. But can I suggest caution, one

:15:22.:15:29.

size fits all always makes me nervous. The natural progression,

:15:30.:15:33.

from one to the other, probably the best, rather than the imposition. I

:15:34.:15:43.

entirely understand, based on his experiences, and I have the benefit

:15:44.:15:48.

of visiting schools across the country, despite schools becoming

:15:49.:15:54.

academies, also lots of different models, different sizes, and

:15:55.:15:56.

different opportunities for headteachers. Big, small,

:15:57.:16:04.

collaboration, alternative provision. We have an amazing

:16:05.:16:08.

education system. It is something to be welcomed and celebrated. I want

:16:09.:16:16.

to thank the Secretary of State. The Labour MPs, opposite, talking

:16:17.:16:21.

positively about the transformative are fixed. I am particularly proud,

:16:22.:16:28.

but I am a conservative because I believe in choice. Does the

:16:29.:16:35.

Secretary of State agree that we should put our trust in parents in

:16:36.:16:41.

governing bodies, can she look at this phrase? I also trust parents

:16:42.:16:52.

and governing bodies, and we have the appetite across the country, for

:16:53.:16:56.

headteachers to take on more responsibilities, not be told what

:16:57.:17:01.

to do by local authorities. Making choices, based for the schools,

:17:02.:17:08.

pupils and communities. The last intervention. The Secretary of

:17:09.:17:15.

State, I think is going to confirm, this is the white paper, but she has

:17:16.:17:20.

also worked with Conservative controlled local authorities, good

:17:21.:17:27.

records of keeping open local poverty schools. Can we have a

:17:28.:17:32.

compromise, so that county councils will not be forced, to lose control,

:17:33.:17:37.

it is essential at these rural areas that we keep them open. I know that

:17:38.:17:43.

it is a compromise, not forcing anything on anybody. I was meeting

:17:44.:17:51.

some of the LGA members, this morning, to discuss those points.

:17:52.:17:57.

They have welcomed the moves, about how we want to clarify how the moves

:17:58.:18:02.

will be looking in the future. And of course, providing excellent

:18:03.:18:05.

services, so nothing to stop those excellent services continuing. But

:18:06.:18:10.

my rate honourable friend is correct, we will continue with

:18:11.:18:12.

discussions. I am going to make some progress. A lot of members want to

:18:13.:18:20.

speak in this debate. The Academy programme, takes the belief that the

:18:21.:18:27.

services should be run by front-line professionals. International

:18:28.:18:29.

evidence has shown that the autonomy, is linked to improved

:18:30.:18:35.

performance, and it must be in place. Test scores higher, when

:18:36.:18:47.

Skills manage budget, and managed just. Academies, better teachers,

:18:48.:19:00.

innovation, teachers rewarded and academies are better for pupils,

:19:01.:19:06.

taking advantage of new opportunities, for the government to

:19:07.:19:14.

intervene. Mr Deputy Speaker, we have already talked about the fact

:19:15.:19:19.

that we want parents to be more involved, not less, and as the Prime

:19:20.:19:23.

Minister has said, we have never suggested that the should not be

:19:24.:19:27.

sitting on government bodies. We support parents, always being

:19:28.:19:35.

encouraged, but always for parents to be involved. Including, for

:19:36.:19:41.

example, Nottinghamshire, has a local governing body for each of the

:19:42.:19:47.

academies. Each of the representatives receive inductions,

:19:48.:19:50.

ongoing developments, so that they can be clear about the role. We will

:19:51.:19:56.

also introduce regular softies, satisfaction, and examination

:19:57.:20:00.

results. As the Deputy Speaker, one of the issues that has not been

:20:01.:20:04.

addressed, the lack of intervention, by some local authorities, which are

:20:05.:20:12.

schools, failing or coasting. Many have not appointed an executive

:20:13.:20:23.

board since 2006, I give way. I am pleased it is a popular

:20:24.:20:28.

intervention. On this point, the role of local authorities, can I

:20:29.:20:41.

commend, the model we have established, education, we accept

:20:42.:20:48.

that the children and they have concerns about the forced Academy,

:20:49.:20:54.

but the educational standards, the proactive local authorities, should

:20:55.:20:58.

be accepting children, whatever school? I am looking forward to

:20:59.:21:06.

visiting his constituency, and I certainly will of course, be looking

:21:07.:21:11.

at these models, achieving the education excellence, and at the

:21:12.:21:17.

white paper. We have already been shown to respond quickly, when

:21:18.:21:24.

academies, underperform. We have issued 154 notices, changing the

:21:25.:21:29.

leadership of 129, in cases of particular concern. Powers

:21:30.:21:35.

introduced by the act, allow us to act swiftly, and I will take the

:21:36.:21:43.

honourable gentleman. I am grateful to the Secretary of State, will she

:21:44.:21:49.

not allow parents a say in whether the school becomes an Academy?

:21:50.:22:04.

Why are we doing this now? The trajectory is three quarters of

:22:05.:22:11.

secondary and a third of all primary schools will be academies. My

:22:12.:22:19.

honourable friend said it would make it increasingly difficult for local

:22:20.:22:24.

authorities to manage, with fewer and fewer schools. We will work for

:22:25.:22:27.

local authorities to make sure they are on -- able to enter

:22:28.:22:35.

partnerships. Something of the opposition has deliberately failed

:22:36.:22:37.

to understand if this is fully funded. We have over ?500 million,

:22:38.:22:46.

including recruiting... She has given away a lot. If she wants to

:22:47.:22:52.

give way, that is fine. But stop clamouring and shouting. I want to

:22:53.:23:00.

fit you warning. Thank you. We have over ?500 million available in this

:23:01.:23:05.

Parliament to include capacity, including sponsors and development.

:23:06.:23:10.

As ever, the calculation, which the lady seems so fond of views grossly

:23:11.:23:19.

inaccurate costings. Saying the average cost will be ?66,000 per

:23:20.:23:29.

academy. Costs have fallen by over 250,000. It will fall significantly

:23:30.:23:34.

in the years ahead as we move towards full academisation. I'm

:23:35.:23:41.

grateful. She talks about the ?500 million available in this

:23:42.:23:43.

Parliament. Could she give an undertaking to publish, in great

:23:44.:23:49.

detail, the department's costings to give us the reassurance that this is

:23:50.:23:54.

fully funded and that all of the costs have been fully taken into

:23:55.:23:57.

account, because I am afraid to say her figures seem a bit pie in the

:23:58.:24:04.

sky. I can assure him my figures are not. We publish a huge amount other

:24:05.:24:10.

information and if he wants to write me about schools in his

:24:11.:24:14.

constituency, I will be happy to respond. I'm glad you have been

:24:15.:24:20.

waiting for this, because in Kingston, we have the best GCSE

:24:21.:24:24.

results in the country. Only one of the schools is not an academy. It is

:24:25.:24:29.

legitimate to have a debate about this. But would she agree with me

:24:30.:24:35.

that whatever the honourable lady on the opposite bench misrepresented,

:24:36.:24:43.

what she did miss rep did not -- you are right. What she did not

:24:44.:24:51.

misrepresent was this gaffe about asset stripping private profit that

:24:52.:25:02.

many colleagues have engaged in. Absolutely. Withdrawing. You got the

:25:03.:25:08.

message across. That's great. Thank you. He is absolutely passionate

:25:09.:25:14.

about this programme and raising standards. And I join him in that.

:25:15.:25:20.

Let me refute another falsehood in their motion. But we will force all

:25:21.:25:24.

schools to be part of Monte Academy trusts. They will not be forced to

:25:25.:25:28.

join up with other schools. Many schools want to join a trust,

:25:29.:25:36.

because they can see the benefits. -- multi-academy trusts. They can

:25:37.:25:40.

setup their own, but to be clear we will never make any successful

:25:41.:25:44.

school that is capable of operating alone during trust. On this side, we

:25:45.:25:52.

are extremely grateful for the fact we have finally made progress on the

:25:53.:25:57.

issue of fairer funding, which is incredibly important, particularly

:25:58.:26:01.

in rural constituencies. Or she confirms that the progress on fairer

:26:02.:26:05.

funding does not depend in anyway unenforced customisation? --

:26:06.:26:14.

enforced academisation? The opposition had 13 years to sort out

:26:15.:26:18.

equities in school funding and we had nothing from them. What I see is

:26:19.:26:23.

the trajectories for moving onto the new funding formula... We hope to

:26:24.:26:30.

start in the 2017 and 2018 financial years. And we will work out the best

:26:31.:26:35.

way for them to do so and the collaboration they will have. Let me

:26:36.:26:43.

take one more. She has been very patient. But can I just ask for an

:26:44.:26:49.

small schools, because we have many in East Anglia. Can she confirm the

:26:50.:26:58.

procedures for closure? That they will always remain in place? What I

:26:59.:27:04.

do not envisage is closure of small schools. If they are serving the

:27:05.:27:12.

community well, popular with parents and pupils, why would we want to

:27:13.:27:17.

close them? We know that just becoming an academy doesn't improve

:27:18.:27:20.

results in itself, but what it does do is set heads and teachers and

:27:21.:27:25.

governors free to do the things that increase standards. Our reforms are

:27:26.:27:30.

the hard work of teachers and have led to remarkable success. She never

:27:31.:27:36.

wants to recognise the success in schools. We used to have a long way

:27:37.:27:41.

to go to achieve excellent education everywhere. We will work to continue

:27:42.:27:45.

that. Our paper sets out the wider plans for the next five years,

:27:46.:27:49.

building on extending reforms to achieve Educational Excellence

:27:50.:27:57.

Everywhere. Where good schools and teachers exist, we will let them do

:27:58.:28:02.

their best. There they Junot, we will step in and provide confidence

:28:03.:28:08.

to parents and children. The opposition's motion has no ambition

:28:09.:28:13.

to achieve that. -- where they do not. I asked the house to reject

:28:14.:28:20.

their motion and back our reforms to deliver Educational Excellence

:28:21.:28:23.

Everywhere. I would like to move the amendment. The original question was

:28:24.:28:31.

as on the order paper. The question is that the amendment be made. One

:28:32.:28:43.

of the most morale destroying assignments that I have had in this

:28:44.:28:49.

house is to read this white paper. It is riddled with jargon. It is

:28:50.:28:58.

riddled with ungrammatical structures. It is riddled with split

:28:59.:29:06.

infinitive is... And for this to come from a Department for Education

:29:07.:29:17.

is particularly unacceptable. I come from a family of education. I myself

:29:18.:29:23.

taught for a small time after it left university. Two of my sisters

:29:24.:29:29.

were teachers. All of their working lives they were teachers. And I know

:29:30.:29:36.

what the challenge of education is at first hand. Reading this white

:29:37.:29:48.

paper, I do not believe that the Department does know what the

:29:49.:29:54.

challenge of education is. And the... While there are huge numbers

:29:55.:30:01.

in this 122 page White Paper of issues one could deal with, it is

:30:02.:30:07.

inevitable that we should concentrate on the forced academies

:30:08.:30:16.

policy. Because there is no justification for it. And that is

:30:17.:30:21.

illustrated by the fact that it started in my constituency in the

:30:22.:30:30.

last Parliament. An effort was made to turn a college in my constituency

:30:31.:30:44.

into a forced Academy. And the only reason that that did not happen was

:30:45.:30:51.

because the then Secretary of State, now the Secretary of State for

:30:52.:30:56.

Justice ordered the withdrawal of the warning notice, which would have

:30:57.:31:00.

forced the college to become an academy. Will he give way? Yes, of

:31:01.:31:10.

course. I am grateful. Would he agree with my constituent from

:31:11.:31:15.

Ealing, who writes in from a school where she is a governor that has

:31:16.:31:20.

fought academisation before. She says if schools and parents are

:31:21.:31:24.

meant to have freedom, than our freedom of choice is to remain

:31:25.:31:30.

within local authority control. A very valid point. When I talk about

:31:31.:31:39.

what happened with the college in my constituency, which was rebuilt by

:31:40.:31:45.

the Labour government at a cost of ?47 million and is a model

:31:46.:31:50.

structure, I quote from a letter that I received from the head

:31:51.:31:54.

teacher -- headteacher of the college last month and what he said

:31:55.:32:04.

was... "On the evening of Tuesday the 2nd of March 2016, I attended a

:32:05.:32:08.

meeting with my deputies and the Ofsted team to receive their

:32:09.:32:13.

detailed feedback on the section five inspection. It took place on

:32:14.:32:20.

the first and 2nd of March 2000 16. I then experienced the proudest

:32:21.:32:25.

moment of my entire professional career when we were told that the

:32:26.:32:32.

college had received the full five outstanding judgment against the

:32:33.:32:36.

criteria of the new and challenging Ofsted framework. " -- first and

:32:37.:32:46.

second 2016. That would not have happened if this government had had

:32:47.:32:52.

its way. I got another school in my constituency, a primary school,

:32:53.:33:03.

which was going to be turned into an academy and direct with the staff

:33:04.:33:07.

and governors to prevent that and we won. But we did not always win. I

:33:08.:33:16.

was not long ago against Cedar Mount, in Cedar Mount School in my

:33:17.:33:24.

constituency, which was forced into an academy and the forcing was

:33:25.:33:31.

particularly odious, because it was done by forcing it with schools that

:33:32.:33:40.

are not even in the city of Manchester. And from that came a

:33:41.:33:49.

person who turned the whole situation into what she called

:33:50.:33:57.

Bright futures, capital B, capital F, for which she pays herself more

:33:58.:34:05.

than ?200,000 a year. And that is what a customisation is about. It is

:34:06.:34:12.

about people making money out of a structure that isn't necessary, that

:34:13.:34:19.

doesn't benefit the pupils and as we read in the White Paper, the

:34:20.:34:25.

corroboration of schools that would be put into the Academy group 's are

:34:26.:34:34.

not even in some cases in the same county. So it is nothing to do with

:34:35.:34:40.

locality, or local feeling. It has nothing to do with local sentiment.

:34:41.:34:50.

And the parents will have no voice tools. -- conglomeration of schools.

:34:51.:34:56.

The government will create a thing called parent portal. -- no voice at

:34:57.:35:04.

all. There, it is alleged that parents will have a voice. They do

:35:05.:35:10.

not and they will not have a voice. They will have no voice in which

:35:11.:35:21.

school their child goes to all the quality of their education. And, in

:35:22.:35:29.

the White Paper, remedies offered. One remedy is to go to the

:35:30.:35:35.

Department for Education. I have to say, if I write to the Secretary of

:35:36.:35:40.

State, she will send me back a courteous letter, but she will not

:35:41.:35:44.

deal with the issue that the parents raise, because she will say she

:35:45.:35:50.

doesn't deal with individual or family issues. She only deals with

:35:51.:36:00.

policy. There is another course for the parents. That is to go to an

:36:01.:36:07.

ombudsman. We'll let you tell me, and I worked when the system was

:36:08.:36:13.

created, when did someone go to an ombudsman and actually get a result

:36:14.:36:19.

that improved the situation? -- will you tell me? The structure the

:36:20.:36:23.

government is setting out in this white paper is compulsory. It is not

:36:24.:36:30.

going to give local authorities any voice. There is a section about The

:36:31.:36:36.

Voice of local authorities, but if you actually read the section, you

:36:37.:36:40.

will find the local authorities do not have any voice, except that they

:36:41.:36:48.

are assigned the role of making sure that children get to a school. That

:36:49.:36:52.

is not going to happen with an independent academy. One that is run

:36:53.:36:58.

by people paid hundreds of thousands of pounds. They will tell the local

:36:59.:37:02.

authority to get lost. And it is not simply the authority. There is the

:37:03.:37:12.

fact that the government is going to create 503 schools. We've got free

:37:13.:37:20.

schools my constituency. -- free schools.

:37:21.:37:25.

We have got free schools run by the Catholic church, very good, and the

:37:26.:37:38.

Muslim community wants to be involved. But it does not want to

:37:39.:37:42.

get involved with this. What we are going to be faced with, from this

:37:43.:37:51.

government, it does not care about public education. That is the issue.

:37:52.:37:58.

Academies are not about public education, academies are about

:37:59.:38:06.

giving a small number of people of polity -- authority, over millions

:38:07.:38:20.

of people. I just want to say, tight on this debate. Thank you. Mr Deputy

:38:21.:38:30.

Speaker, what many of us are looking for, from the white paper, the

:38:31.:38:34.

ability to bring on these new skills, quickly, but in five years

:38:35.:38:38.

we have not been able to deliver the community skill that is needed.

:38:39.:38:42.

Would my honourable friend agree with me, that the seat skills, --

:38:43.:38:53.

faith schools, and others, the community is excluded? My honourable

:38:54.:39:01.

friend as rate, and the fact is, that in my constituency, heavily

:39:02.:39:06.

involved with schools, it is not a matter of the government providing a

:39:07.:39:14.

choice, for parents, it is the government taking away the choice of

:39:15.:39:20.

parents, putting them into the hands of extremely well-paid jeweller

:39:21.:39:29.

cuts. This government is making a big mistake. And it needs to think

:39:30.:39:43.

again. This debate is actually about children, and the interests of

:39:44.:39:46.

children. It is about making sure that they have the opportunities, to

:39:47.:39:53.

fulfill their lives. And we would not have a debate like this, if

:39:54.:39:59.

local authorities in the past had delivered properly. That is a fact.

:40:00.:40:03.

And the Labour government under Tony Blair would agree, because they

:40:04.:40:10.

started the Academy programme, that government exercised the importance

:40:11.:40:17.

of education. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman, correct to pay

:40:18.:40:21.

tribute to the last Labour government and the academy client,

:40:22.:40:25.

what we did for the most disadvantaged areas, but David

:40:26.:40:30.

Blunkett said that this government approach risked the entire programme

:40:31.:40:42.

altogether? I think Lord Blunkett was correct, expressing concerns

:40:43.:40:47.

about schools across Yorkshire, to deal with problems identified. And

:40:48.:40:53.

that came up, so I think that was a good point, well made. The position,

:40:54.:41:03.

we need to think about where we are with education. And if you read the

:41:04.:41:11.

report, from Ofsted, you can see the problem. We have got too many

:41:12.:41:20.

failing schools, across the primary sector, causing the problem, and

:41:21.:41:22.

when you leave the primary school without the ability to read or

:41:23.:41:28.

write, going to secondary school, they were going to struggle and

:41:29.:41:34.

continue to struggle. The evidence, frightening, when we actually

:41:35.:41:38.

analyse the data about those children, who have got a bus stop

:41:39.:41:43.

because they never recovered. -- bad start. Academies have delivered

:41:44.:41:51.

success. Over 80% are good or outstanding. That is something we

:41:52.:41:55.

need to be thinking about, and it is the reason why it is important, to

:41:56.:42:01.

have more academies. But the framework needs to be explored. I

:42:02.:42:04.

think it is important we understand what a good multi academy trust

:42:05.:42:11.

looks like, the education select committee is going to be looking at

:42:12.:42:14.

that. It is not to say they should become that, but it would attract a

:42:15.:42:21.

lot of schools, because of the range of opportunities that it provides,

:42:22.:42:29.

they emphasise the strength of the partnership, and leadership. I think

:42:30.:42:32.

one of the key things is to demonstrate what a good multi

:42:33.:42:35.

academy trust looks like. My honourable friend was talking about

:42:36.:42:40.

primary schools. I think it is good to talk about, because we have got

:42:41.:42:46.

to make sure primary schools get together, form partnerships. That is

:42:47.:42:54.

why I was pleased when the NGA launched the report, joining a

:42:55.:43:00.

group, to stay in control. That is about bringing schools together, and

:43:01.:43:04.

hopefully through that structure, benefiting the transition from

:43:05.:43:11.

maintained, to academies, if that is the direction that they need to

:43:12.:43:19.

take. Quickly. Will he comment, on the issue of choice? One of the high

:43:20.:43:25.

schools in my constituency was rated as outstanding, on the Department

:43:26.:43:30.

list of 100, the 100 best, why shouldn't be forced to choose to

:43:31.:43:41.

become an Academy? -- should it. We want all schools to have the ability

:43:42.:43:46.

to be autonomous, walk with all schools, form relationships, and I

:43:47.:43:58.

think that the thing that we always miss, we talk about the best and the

:43:59.:44:02.

worst. We have got to focus on the Middle schools. They older ones,

:44:03.:44:14.

most often, that tend to coast. And the fact of the matter, too many

:44:15.:44:19.

local authorities have not intervened quickly enough, robust

:44:20.:44:22.

Leonov, when the situation has demanded that. That is the

:44:23.:44:28.

reference, that the Secretary of State correctly made, about interim

:44:29.:44:34.

executive boards. I want to move on to this issue, of parent governors.

:44:35.:44:39.

The government is not saying that they cannot exist. Two points to

:44:40.:44:46.

make. The obvious one, it is not being outlawed, the second one,

:44:47.:44:51.

everybody can be a parent. It should not have escaped everybody's

:44:52.:44:56.

attention, you do not necessarily need to be a parent, to be a

:44:57.:45:01.

governor, and I think that is an important point. And the idea, that

:45:02.:45:10.

parent governors have exclusive wisdom, could be correct at some

:45:11.:45:15.

schools, but not all of them. One of the reasons I setup the all-party

:45:16.:45:19.

group, an school leadership, was precisely because I was concerned

:45:20.:45:24.

that we did not have sufficient skills, all of them needed, for

:45:25.:45:28.

governing bodies. And we actually talked about parent governors. The

:45:29.:45:39.

general agreement, of that group, was that skills are the most

:45:40.:45:47.

important thing, I think it is absolutely correct to be talking in

:45:48.:45:54.

these terms. I want to quickly mention regional school

:45:55.:45:56.

Commissioners. They are going to play an important part. The

:45:57.:46:00.

education select committee has discussed that, with the Department,

:46:01.:46:08.

the formal enquiry, we're going to have to continue to look at that,

:46:09.:46:11.

because as the Academy programme develops we will need to see more

:46:12.:46:17.

skill, more capacity, through commissioners. I want to put that on

:46:18.:46:25.

the agenda, that does need to be considered, in the medium-term.

:46:26.:46:39.

Finally, fairer funding. That is critical, making sure that schools

:46:40.:46:46.

that have suffered in the past get that, and schools should be

:46:47.:46:53.

encouraged to grow, when the demand is there, and last but not least, we

:46:54.:47:02.

have to think about catchment areas. We have got the refusal of the

:47:03.:47:05.

County Council, to be more open-minded, about catchment areas,

:47:06.:47:15.

as parents choose. I think the education select committee is

:47:16.:47:27.

correct. I stand here, as a member of the third party in the house. We

:47:28.:47:30.

will be abstaining this evening, on the vault and the amendment. I am a

:47:31.:47:36.

member of the education select committee, and as such I feel that I

:47:37.:47:44.

have international observer status. On the basis of my membership of the

:47:45.:47:48.

education select committee, I want to make some points about the white

:47:49.:47:56.

paper. I am going to focus on things such as the National curriculum, I

:47:57.:48:01.

was interested to read in the white paper, that the national curriculum

:48:02.:48:05.

is going to become a benchmark, hopefully exceeded. I find it

:48:06.:48:10.

difficult to understand, when we got the Holocaust education report, it

:48:11.:48:16.

is supported by the government, but is not required to be taught across

:48:17.:48:22.

all schools. I find this strange. How far is this going to go, if the

:48:23.:48:26.

elements of the white paper go-ahead? Another interesting part,

:48:27.:48:32.

of my work on the education select committee, I have been involved in

:48:33.:48:38.

private discussion, with teachers and representatives, on the subject

:48:39.:48:41.

of attracting and retaining teachers, a large problem in

:48:42.:48:47.

England. I am wondering, how this idea of having six years, perceived

:48:48.:49:02.

to be forced academisation, I am not saying how this is going to attract

:49:03.:49:07.

teachers, especially as can happen with academies, terms and conditions

:49:08.:49:13.

are not going to be national. In the sense that I understand from

:49:14.:49:19.

Scotland. I also find it strange that the forced removal of local

:49:20.:49:23.

authorities, in England, against the wishes, of local authorities, and

:49:24.:49:30.

also parents, governors, trade unions, is going to go ahead. How

:49:31.:49:36.

the Secretary of State can match giving them new responsibilities,

:49:37.:49:43.

but taking away any control over what happens in schools. The last

:49:44.:49:51.

thing I want to see, actually, I find it interesting from an

:49:52.:49:54.

international perspective, the Chancellor of the Exchequer wrote

:49:55.:50:00.

this matter to the house and obviously, followed by the Secretary

:50:01.:50:05.

of State's white paper. The Chancellor of the Exchequer always

:50:06.:50:10.

makes me think about costs, and I am concerned for English schools, and

:50:11.:50:14.

everybody concerned, that the cost of this academisation, is going to

:50:15.:50:23.

get money away from teaching schoolchildren. Important point. I

:50:24.:50:27.

have a background in folder education in Scotland, and I know

:50:28.:50:30.

that change is going to cost, and focus can shift. Finally, the

:50:31.:50:38.

Department for Education is at the moment unable to present accounts,

:50:39.:50:44.

because of the problems involved in consolidating Academy accounts, with

:50:45.:50:49.

the Department for Education. If this academisation of all schools

:50:50.:50:54.

goes ahead, it is going to make more issues, and problems. I think any

:50:55.:51:00.

delay in publishing accounts, for any government department, is

:51:01.:51:06.

utterly in public accountability. -- a delay. I realise this as a

:51:07.:51:12.

passionate, and forceful debate. I wish you all well, but I would not

:51:13.:51:22.

be taking any farther apart. I appreciate the opportunity to

:51:23.:51:32.

contribute in this debate, this is a matter of social justice, and it was

:51:33.:51:42.

described, as the best white paper, that he had ever read. I have a

:51:43.:51:51.

feeling, I could be on the way back to the education select committee,

:51:52.:51:57.

and I joined that, and as part of the enquiry, we make inspirational

:51:58.:52:01.

school leaders, Chief Executive 's, academies, schools, we also looked

:52:02.:52:12.

at Academy underperforming, coming up with a report that had

:52:13.:52:14.

interesting conclusions.

:52:15.:52:19.

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