28/04/2016 House of Commons


28/04/2016

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of the day in both houses of parliament at 11pm tonight. First,

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questions to the Secretary of State of transport.

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Order, order. Questions to the Secretary of State for Transport.

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Question one. Drones have great potential but it is important that

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they are used to safely. There are already tough penalties in place for

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negligent drone use. Including up to five years imprisonment for

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endangering an aircraft. The Department NT News to work with

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agencies to assess the safety risks of drones. Should the government not

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heed the warning of Heathrow, and instead of the complacent position

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taken, realise the potential of catastrophe by vandals or careless

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people using drones, and the dreadful possibility of terrorists

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using drones against stores of flammable material on nuclear power

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stations? Already drones are being used to take mobile phones and drugs

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into Wandsworth prison. Shouldn't the government wake up and realise

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and realise this new menace is potential great threat and take

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precautions in order to reduce the universal access to drones that

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exists now? There is no complacency whatsoever. By the government by the

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use of drones. There is a prison sentence which is available and I

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will obviously keep the situation under review. It is also important

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to find out the facts behind certain incidents, so the incident that was

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reported on the 17th of April, it is now thought that that was not a

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drone incident. I wonder if the Minister could update the House on

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the state of investment in the roads in the north-east, in particular the

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A1, and how that can make progress? Most interesting matter but little

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distant for the matter of drones, save it for the long summer evenings

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that lie ahead. There are growing concerns about incidents involving

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drones threatening public safety. It is not very clear if there is a

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problem to do with regulations themselves, or the enforcement of

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those ready nations. Will the secretary of state look at those? I

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certainly will. I met earlier this week, a planned meeting before the

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incident on the 17th of April, with BALPA, to discuss this, and also

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laser pen used, the is causing for civil aviation in this country. But

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I certainly will keep these things very much under review, and do

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further work along with BALPA and the industry, and the CAA, on drones

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and drone use. Can my right honourable friend assure me that all

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regulations and guidance with regard to drones and air safety will apply

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and be communicated to appoint outside London -- to airports

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outside London, so we have a consistent policy across the country

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with air safety? My honourable friend gives a very good point, this

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is not just a matter of London airports, it is any airport, also a

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matter of airport outside London which serve important international

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connections right across the country. I hear what the Transport

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Secretary is saying with his engagement with airports, but it is

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also an issue for stadiums, railway stations and other places where

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public gather in huge numbers. Can he tell us what discussions he has

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had with the widest possible range of stakeholders including local

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authorities with the use of drones? The issue that I was addressing and

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addressing in this country, this question, was related to aviation.

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That is the point that I have updated the House on. Of course,

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there are wider issues across the government and the government keeps

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these matters consistently under review. I am grateful for that

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response, even if it was not much of an answer. The Secretary of State

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briefly touched upon another important issue surrounding laser

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pens, and in particular the threat that they also pose to airports

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across the United Kingdom. BALPA have called for all but the lowest

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strength laser pens to be bound. What is his response to that? -- to

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be banned. As I said a a few moments ago, I met BALPA this week, they

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came forward with some issues with laser pens, there is evidence about

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the way the are used, they fall under the category of being illegal

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to shine into someone's eyes and there have been more prosecutions.

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It is something I willing to take further action on wanted to get

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agreement on what the best way forward is. You may recall that this

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time last month, I ask the Secretary of State's honourable friend that

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after three years of talk about working groups, when we would be

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told what the government was actually going to do about the

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drones to civil aircraft. His answer left us in lies. -- left us number

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wiser. This week the minister said in the written answer that he will

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not even consult on anything until the European aviation agency has

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consulted. Other countries have already brought in recession schemes

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and other initiatives so when are we going to see clear proposals from

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the government, without having to wait for the US president to come to

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town? Think the point that the honourable member made in his quest,

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he said it might have Been a drone action. Government acts on what will

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be the danger, not what might be. We are in discussion with the BALPA and

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the CAA to develop this. If the honourable member is saying all

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drones should be banned completely this is something they never thought

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about when they were in office. Question two. The framework and the

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amount of Schedule 8 compensation is set by the committee of rails. --

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the rail regulator. She's welcome to raise concerns with them. I know the

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Minister has concerns about Schedule 8 payments, as do I. It is

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scandalous rail operators make millions from rail delays at the

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expense of passengers are suffering from a poor standard of service. I

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wonder what immediate steps the government might take to give power

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to the regulator to insure any net profits made by train operators from

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unplanned delays and cancellations caused by Network Rail go towards

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improving rail passenger services across the country? Particularly in

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light of the very low levels of passenger satisfaction? I thank her

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for raising this issue very eloquently on several occasions, and

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I know that these are part of the considerations of the current view.

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She and I are as one on the view that the rail industry has to do

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more to improve the current compensation payments which are

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rather generous in absolute terms but not well advertised Orwell

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claimed, and I am personally looking forward to bringing forward the

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policy to reduce the delay threshold to 15 minutes. Our goal should be to

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get trains running on time so passengers do not have to claim

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compensation and that is what is underpinning this government's

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record investment in the railway. Constituent of mine wishing to get

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back-to-back sale after 9pm on a Monday or Tuesday are having to

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undertake an large portion of the journey by replacement bus service,

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that will be going on for the rest of this year. -- getting back to

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excel. I declare an interest, this affects me. My intentions are ultra

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stick, will the Minister meets with meal -- Alcester, will she meet with

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me to see if they can do this work overnight? I will of course meet

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with him and look at what can be done to speed up the repair of that

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piece of work. It is the case that passengers are completely

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inadequately, they did for delays, and I welcome her supporting my

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campaign to half the delay time. Will she also support my campaign to

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sack Southern, who have proven completely incapable of running a

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railway service and should hand it over to TEFL? It is good that he is

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supporting my campaign, we have discussed the Southern franchise

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many times, it is difficult, there are record levels of engineering

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works going on on the slide and we are doing all we can to ensure

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passengers suffered the least disruption and get the compensation

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to which they are entitled if their trains do not work on time. Schedule

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8 compensation is not making it's way to my travelling public, one

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actively contact me from Acton Main line, where there is no stuff, no

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way of buying a ticket and no indicating board, one stop from

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Paddington, it should not be a case of taking your life into the own

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hands and looking into the Unknown. I am not going to give a boring

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lecture on Schedule 8, it is slightly different to the point of

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compensation paid to passengers under delay to pay, and it is right

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that we bring forward proposals because the compensation threshold

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is not worth a lot, one that is at 15 minutes is better, but her

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constituents have a far greater choice of transport than any other

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parts of the country. That is why we are investing across the country.

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80% of passengers and title to a refund when their train is cancelled

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or delayed make no claim, largely because train operating companies

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make claiming too difficult. To improve passenger compensation

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arrangements, the office of rail and road recommended that the provisions

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of the consumer rights act should apply to rail. But this month, the

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government further delayed this interjection by another year. Why is

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it that train operating companies should have such beneficial

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compensation arrangements, while the government intervenes to delay

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giving passengers their right to compensation? The question that

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comes to mind is why the honourable gentleman's government did nothing

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about this for 13 years. Delay repay compensation levels have increased

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eightfold over the last five years. There is far more to do. The actual

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amount of compensation that is available is more generous in this

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country than in all most any other country in Europe, but if I can just

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assure him on the CRA exemption, the industry had argued for a permanent

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exemption, I found that completely unacceptable. We have given the

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industry time to adjust and make sure they get it right. The road

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investment strategy announced the upgradable remaining sections of the

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8303 between the M3 and a 358 to June carriage way standard together

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with the upgrading of the 8358 in Somerset to the M5 at Taunton to the

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A303 at Ilminster. Three major screams -- schemes are planned to

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turn to process by 2020. I thank our excellent road ministers for stating

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quite clearly the improvements from Stonehenge through to Ilminster

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through to Taunton. Very much welcome. But there is a stretch from

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Ilminster to harm at, which actually needs a little more improvement.

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Therefore we have the cooperation of the Blackdown Hills society to give

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a 60 mph Rd through onto Exeter to make sure we have that second

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arterial route into Devon and on into Cornwall, so I would like an

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update from our excellent minister. Detailed disposition from a

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minister? I fear he probably won't be disappointed! LAUGHTER

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Obviously I thank my honourable friend for that question. The first

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road investment strategy did include some smaller scale improvements to

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that section of the roads to improve safety and Jenny quality but it is a

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very challenging area to make improvements, it is protected

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landscape and a very dutiful area, as my honourable friend showed me

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when he drove me along the route last summer time when I heard first

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time the opportunity that was presented by investment. We have

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started the process of the second road investment strategy, and they

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are developing route strategies to improve that process. I will be

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taking my honourable friend's contribution into that process and

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make sure he is raised with on a constant basis. I would like to

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welcome the upgrade of the A303, but particularly where it joins the

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A358, and links from the 830. But a recent parish meeting I went to, it

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was suggested the preferred options would come together by 2018, and

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there was a certain bit of my drink from the audience about whether the

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government would actually go ahead and build the road. So could the

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Minister confirm that this will take place by 2020, as it is so crucial

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for the wider south-west? I can understand there are some sinners is

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on a local basis because the scheme has I think been cancelled by former

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governments. However, let me just provides reassurance there. We are

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looking at consultation starting next year, and the start of work in

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early 2020, so I am happy to provide the assurance my honourable friend

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once. The airports commission assessed the surface access

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requirements of each short listed airport proposal as part of its work

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published in July 20 15th, and estimated the cost of up to ?5

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billion for surface access works in relation to Heathrow Northwest

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runway. Thank you, Mr Speaker, there are clearly widely differing

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estimates as to the capital cost of building an additional runway at

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Heathrow. But what is not in dispute is that building an additional

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runway at Heathrow will cost significantly more than building an

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additional runway at Gatwick. So my question, Mr Speaker, is if the

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government does decide to go ahead with expanding Heathrow, who will

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pay the difference? The airline passenger or the taxpayer? The

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honourable lady is absolutely right that some of the estimates that have

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been forecast for surface access to differ widely, even by the standards

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of some economists, but one must bear in mind that these three sets

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of figures includes different things over different time scales. The main

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difference being the work is required exclusively for airport

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capacity where the airport would be expected to make a major

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contribution. Projects that support airport capacity but have wider

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benefits and those in the TfL figures, which are needed for

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economic growth over the next 20 or 30 years. Does the government have a

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view on this, the airport commission figure just 5 billion, 2 billion

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from Heathrow, the 18 billion from TfL? Is this not just 30 years of

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disinformation we get out of Heathrow? When is the government

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going to come to a decision on this and make its nuclear and stop

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delaying it because of elections? If the honourable gentleman had been

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paying attention, I did explain that these figures related from things

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over different time scales. In relation to the decision, perhaps a

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could wait until my honourable friend for Twickenham poses her

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question to the Secretary of State. Mr Speaker, can the government give

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us any indication of a construction time period from a decision taken

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until a runway either at Gatwick or Heathrow is completed? It is

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important to note that the additional time we are taking to

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look at a number of economic and environmental factors will not delay

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the delivery of a runway at whatever location is decided upon.

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The government has committed ?600 million in this Parliament for the

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uptake of electric vehicles. The UK has the largest network of rapid

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charging point in Europe, with a total of 11,000 public charge

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points. We will be announcing further details of the next phase of

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plans to expand the UK's charging next work later this year. --

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network. I had a meeting a few weeks ago with Nissan, one of the

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manufacturers here in the UK. They clearly put forward the significant

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changes there has been in electric cars, better acceleration, better

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power, longer battery life. I just want to ask this question, if we are

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going to have better charging points, we need to have them on the

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high Street, in the shopping centre. Those other ways forward, make them

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accessible to whether people are and where the electric cars are. The

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honourable gentleman is absolutely right, there are a much wider range

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of vehicles to be chosen and many tilt in the United Kingdom. We have

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seen a big increase last year, than in the last four years combined. I

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am very pleased that Ulster was one of the UK's eight plug-in places,

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which received ?19 million of funding from the office of lower

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emissions vehicles. As the Minister will know, work has finally started

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on the new Ilkeston train station, where I'm sure there will be at

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least one charging point for electric cars. Despite this major

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new -- this major new investment brings -- with this in mind can we

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establish a new electric bus route to link the station at the town

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centre? I tell my honourable friend that not only the great advantage of

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electric cars, but electric buses. I was in Ulster lately at the right

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bus factory where they have buses now that will go all day on a

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charge, which would be perfect vehicles for the sort of project my

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honourable friend suggests. It is not just physical but intellectual

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infrastructure that is required to support the electric vehicle

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industry, not least because of the extreme voltage is that I've truly

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dangerous to people who don't know what they are doing, and because the

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engines are entirely different from petrol and diesel. As the industry

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for that -- the Ministry for the motor industry on sporting knowledge

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of electric vehicles, and it is it something his department might be of

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support? It is important that people who work in these vehicles are

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adequately trained but I would caution him to suggest that electric

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vehicles are more dangerous than the alternatives. Anyone who has seen a

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petrol tank catch fire would realise that electric vehicles are actually

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intrinsically safe. A number of important decisions on airport

:20:32.:20:34.

capacity were taken by the government in December, including to

:20:35.:20:38.

accept the case for expansion in the south-east. However, we must take

:20:39.:20:40.

time to get the decision right on the preferred scheme. The government

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is further considering the environment impacts, and the best

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possible measures to mitigate the impacts of expansion. Thank you, Mr

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Speaker. On March 24, as chair of the APPG on Heathrow, I wrote to

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Secretary of State with 64 questions about his department was network in

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this area. Unfortunately I have received answers to none. We'll be

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Secretary of State except that important questions on noise, air

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quality, deliverability are essential before he makes this

:21:15.:21:19.

decision, in order to give confidence to the decision-making

:21:20.:21:26.

process? When the decision is made, I will be accountable to the house,

:21:27.:21:31.

to the reasons behind why certain decisions were taken, but what I

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pointed out to my honourable friend in the letter I did reply to her on,

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it would not be appropriate for me to provide a running commentary

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until such time that the government has come to a final decision, and

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that we will do. When we do that, we will be fully accountable for the

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decisions and the recommendations that we make. Mr Speaker, isn't the

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Minister at least a little ashamed at the fact that there has been a

:21:57.:22:00.

major enquiry, it made its recommendations under Howard Davies,

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nothing has happened? At the same time, we are putting all of our

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national treasure into HS2, and by the time that comes in 2032, we will

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find the driverless car has made it totally redundant. Mr Speaker, I

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will take no lectures from a man who supported the government that saw

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our position in the infrastructure league tables move from seven when

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they entered government in 1997 down to 33rd by the time they left

:22:28.:22:32.

government in 2010. The honourable gentleman says it was all his fault.

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Well, that was his words and not mine. LAUGHTER

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Mr Speaker, in Buckinghamshire, over 700 businesses have chosen to locate

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their headquarters not least because of the proximity of that excellent

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local airport, Heathrow. And far from building on the previous

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question, I think it is fair to point out to the Secretary of State,

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whereas HS2 brings absolutely no net economic benefit to Bucks, Heathrow

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does, and it is a long time since Howard Davies reported. Could the

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Secretary of State therefore get a wig along? LAUGHTER

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-- get a wiggle on? Mr Speaker, you have chastised a few people this

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morning for links with airports and HS2. While my right honourable

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friend refers to Heathrow as her local airport, which I fully accept

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I have not heard it described before as a local airport but it is a good

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discretion in particular case, and indeed her constituents are well

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connected to that particular airport. I also want to see other

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parts of the country get the same opportunities that London is getting

:23:52.:23:54.

in its transport connections as well. Mr Alan Brown. This decision

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can impact Scottish airports. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Secretary of

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State's earlier comments, I think the government should provide a

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running commentary about this important decision, so can the

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Secretary of State state clearly as to what additional work is doing

:24:21.:24:23.

about air quality, noise considerations, when the work will

:24:24.:24:26.

be completed and what else the government needs to do to come to a

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decision? I am afraid I disagree about providing a running

:24:32.:24:35.

commentary, for the reasons which I pointed out in my earlier answers,

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but that work is being done. I hope very soon to be able to come to a

:24:40.:24:44.

house and informed the house and the house of the recommendations the

:24:45.:24:52.

government is making. Thank you, Mr Speaker, the government is committed

:24:53.:24:55.

to delivering the emissions reductions needed to meet our

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climate change targets, including the uptake of low emission vehicles,

:25:00.:25:03.

reducing emissions from the road freight sector and encouraging

:25:04.:25:06.

sustainable choices such as walking and cycling. A quarter of the UK's

:25:07.:25:13.

greenhouse gas emissions come from transport emissions, which the

:25:14.:25:18.

government has pledged to cut. Will the minister follow the example of

:25:19.:25:21.

the Scottish Government, who are committed to investing ?62.5 million

:25:22.:25:28.

to create low-carbon infrastructure? I will certainly take no lessons

:25:29.:25:32.

from the Scottish Government, in terms of low-carbon infrastructure

:25:33.:25:35.

for stop one only has to look at the electrification programme on RL

:25:36.:25:38.

ways. The fact is we have some very tough targets we are determined to

:25:39.:25:41.

meet and we will set our fifth carbon budget later this year, and

:25:42.:25:45.

we will publish our emissions reduction plan shortly afterwards.

:25:46.:25:51.

Electric cars are a form of low-carbon transport. Given the

:25:52.:25:56.

disaster in Normandy and in Finland by EDF with a nuclear power station

:25:57.:26:02.

there, can the government explain whence the electricity for all these

:26:03.:26:06.

electric cars? Certainly electric cars can benefit from electricity

:26:07.:26:11.

overnight, and use that off-peak electricity very effectively. I for

:26:12.:26:15.

one believe that nuclear generation will be part of our future energy

:26:16.:26:16.

strategy. Too few companies in East Lancashire

:26:17.:26:28.

offer the cycle to work scheme, what can the government do to extend the

:26:29.:26:36.

scheme to areas like mine? We support it enthusiastically, I know

:26:37.:26:40.

many companies can make sure that their employees get information

:26:41.:26:43.

about picking up that scheme which is a great scheme, get a lot of

:26:44.:26:49.

people onto two wheels, and reduces other carbon dioxide emissions and

:26:50.:26:56.

other pollutants. The most low carb on forms of transport are cycling

:26:57.:27:01.

and walking. Extraordinary, the government showed Easter Sunday to

:27:02.:27:06.

release the long-awaited cycling and walking investment strategy, I can

:27:07.:27:12.

understand why they did not want people to notice it because it is

:27:13.:27:16.

long on aspiration but short on investment. Cycle UK have concluded

:27:17.:27:21.

that by 2021, the amount of money spent on cycling outside London will

:27:22.:27:26.

be 72p per head. How far does the Minister think that they can go on

:27:27.:27:35.

72p? We should hang on a minute here. When we came to power in 2015,

:27:36.:27:41.

we were spending ?2 per head, and at the end of the coalition, we were

:27:42.:27:46.

spending ?6 per head. That is a very good record of investment in cycling

:27:47.:27:50.

and in a spending review, the Chancellor confirmed over ?300

:27:51.:27:53.

million for cycling over five years in that spending review. Many of the

:27:54.:27:58.

decisions have been made by local authorities which are still at least

:27:59.:28:01.

some of them run by the Labour Party. I think that is an admissions

:28:02.:28:09.

-- admission of Joe Mattock cut in cycling. Let us move on to walking,

:28:10.:28:19.

as we approach walked to work week, the strategy has no measurable

:28:20.:28:22.

targets were walking at all. When the minister was pressed in written

:28:23.:28:30.

questions, he sidestepped. Why do we have to wait until 2025 to have

:28:31.:28:35.

measurable targets? We are determined to increase levels of

:28:36.:28:39.

walking, both children walking to school and people walking as part of

:28:40.:28:43.

their everyday lives, many people see the importance of walking not

:28:44.:28:46.

only in terms of improving transport infrastructure but also contributing

:28:47.:28:51.

to clean area in our cities. Question ten. As my right honourable

:28:52.:28:57.

friend knows Dorrell travel in this country is booming and a vital part

:28:58.:29:01.

of the grid is ensuring that rail is accessible to all, including

:29:02.:29:05.

passengers of disabilities, at every stage of the journey. The numbers

:29:06.:29:10.

suggest that disabled people are using the railway in ever greater

:29:11.:29:13.

numbers, the disabled Persons Railcard insect nation went up 12%

:29:14.:29:20.

year-on-year, -- in circulation, a growth rate above those without

:29:21.:29:26.

disabilities. The concourse at Birmingham International is going to

:29:27.:29:29.

be improved to provide better access for the disabled, but could the

:29:30.:29:32.

minister put pressure on the Chiltern line, where the gap between

:29:33.:29:36.

the carriages and the platform is very high indeed, and would it not

:29:37.:29:39.

be possible to replicate what TEFL do, I think at Westminster station

:29:40.:29:50.

there is a raised platform in one section? We need a joined up

:29:51.:29:53.

approach, we need the operators and Network Rail to work together. She

:29:54.:29:57.

should be aware that any improvement works carried on the station have

:29:58.:30:02.

two comply with UK disability standards. I am grateful to the

:30:03.:30:09.

reply that she gave earlier. Given that we know that Network Rail have

:30:10.:30:16.

financial issues, and ?50 million is being taken out of the access for

:30:17.:30:19.

all skin, can the minister explained what pressure she can put on Network

:30:20.:30:26.

Rail to make sure that stations like once in my constituency which are

:30:27.:30:31.

not accidental to disabled people are upgraded to everyone can have

:30:32.:30:35.

access to a good rail service? Many of the stations in country date from

:30:36.:30:38.

Victorian times when this was not even an issue. I would like to point

:30:39.:30:45.

out to him that access for all is a scheme of which we offer a proud,

:30:46.:30:48.

almost half ?1 billion has been spent, money will be spent

:30:49.:30:54.

continually, and stations were prioritised based on football. I

:30:55.:30:57.

would be more than happy to look at the station to see if anything could

:30:58.:31:02.

be done. We have to make sure the money is spent where people are

:31:03.:31:06.

travelling. This to me is absolutely part of the railway for the future,

:31:07.:31:11.

vital for people with disabilities to be able to access trains and

:31:12.:31:14.

rolling stock will be fully to civility compliant by 2020. --

:31:15.:31:23.

Philippe disability compliant. I recognise the important role that

:31:24.:31:28.

regional airports play in providing domestic and international

:31:29.:31:31.

connections and admire the contribution they make to the growth

:31:32.:31:33.

of rival contribution they make to the growth

:31:34.:31:38.

of local economies. They operate within the local -- the private

:31:39.:31:45.

sector and it is up to them to get people into them. Inward tourism is

:31:46.:31:55.

very important in my area, my local at Port has no connection to London.

:31:56.:32:00.

From the discussion in this chamber, no sign of a connection to London.

:32:01.:32:07.

But the minister consider a strategy to connect local airports to bring

:32:08.:32:13.

in inward tourists? The honourable lady talks about connections and

:32:14.:32:17.

conductivity into London, that is one of the reasons why the Davis

:32:18.:32:30.

commission was support. -- was commissioned to report. We need to

:32:31.:32:33.

bear in mind regional conductivity and give reassurance to people who

:32:34.:32:37.

want further service from regional airport into London, they will get

:32:38.:32:42.

that opportunity. I am reliably informed that Cornwall Newquay

:32:43.:32:44.

airport is the fastest-growing regional airport in the country, and

:32:45.:32:49.

can I thank the aviation Minister for his support in helping us to

:32:50.:32:52.

open a new route from Newquay to Leeds Bradford. Going forward it

:32:53.:32:59.

will be essential that original air connectivity is in place to make

:33:00.:33:04.

sure that as our economy grows, the benefit of felt across the country.

:33:05.:33:08.

Can he confirm the regional connectivity fund will continue to

:33:09.:33:11.

be available to help small and regional airport open up their

:33:12.:33:17.

roots? Where they are qualifying, I am grateful that the roots do

:33:18.:33:25.

qualify, it is available. It has made an important difference, it is

:33:26.:33:29.

a route that I have used in a number of occasions to go down to his

:33:30.:33:36.

constituency and others in Cornwall. The Minister will know that London

:33:37.:33:39.

Luton Airport is undergoing a substantial and welcome expansion,

:33:40.:33:44.

but there is spare capacity at Birmingham Airport. It could make a

:33:45.:33:52.

significant contribution to the journey if there was an upgrade of

:33:53.:34:00.

the railway line linking Birmingham Airport Crossrail and therefore to

:34:01.:34:05.

Heathrow. I figure the honourable gentleman that he is always making

:34:06.:34:11.

-- I say to the honourable gentleman that he is with making the case for

:34:12.:34:17.

traditional local links and he is not so keen on high-speed links. I

:34:18.:34:22.

commend what is happening at Luiten airport, I was there to see the

:34:23.:34:25.

start of the work a few months ago and the regeneration going on there,

:34:26.:34:28.

it is rain poured and it is proving very important for the area as well.

:34:29.:34:37.

Number 12. This department is providing over ?7 billion to the

:34:38.:34:41.

local growth fund which will fund over 500 local transport projects by

:34:42.:34:45.

the end of the parliament. As part of that fund, we have launched a new

:34:46.:34:51.

?425 million fund for transformational local transport

:34:52.:34:54.

schemes which are too large for the main allocations and we have invited

:34:55.:34:57.

local enterprise partnerships to bid by July. The construction of the 20

:34:58.:35:09.

year weighted by past here will open up employment land and support the

:35:10.:35:13.

regional economy by creating jobs. Will the Minister meet with me and

:35:14.:35:16.

Cheshire East council representatives to discuss the

:35:17.:35:20.

merits of a funding application for this project? I am happy to have

:35:21.:35:24.

that meeting particularly if she involves the local enterprise

:35:25.:35:26.

partnership, who are central to putting together these bits and

:35:27.:35:30.

ensuring that where we do have these types of investments, they are

:35:31.:35:34.

important for the economy to the local region, and some of the

:35:35.:35:39.

Council representatives. With the Minister look carefully at the plans

:35:40.:35:43.

being forwarded by the Mersey the Alliance for a strategic rail link

:35:44.:35:46.

direct to Manchester Airport, which had a dual benefit of speeding up

:35:47.:35:50.

traffic to Manchester Airport but also taking cars of the motorway?

:35:51.:35:57.

That is the kind of project that transport for North will be looking

:35:58.:36:03.

at, and I understand the importance of good surface connectivity so

:36:04.:36:09.

airports can continue to grow. Manchester Airport is an example for

:36:10.:36:13.

others to follow. The government has given considerable amounts of money

:36:14.:36:19.

to the Labour dominated west Yorkshire combined authority who

:36:20.:36:22.

spend most of their money in the Labour heartlands, ignoring the

:36:23.:36:27.

needs of areas such as mine. Things like the Shipley Eastern bypass

:36:28.:36:30.

which is vital for my local economy. What can the Minister do to make

:36:31.:36:34.

sure that the government's money is spent in areas like Shipley as one

:36:35.:36:38.

of the Labour heartlands, or if he cannot persuade them to do that,

:36:39.:36:42.

will heed directly fund a Shipley Eastern I pass that my -- bypass

:36:43.:36:50.

that my constituents need? One of the important changes that has

:36:51.:36:53.

happened since we have moved from the RDA to having local enterprise

:36:54.:36:58.

partnerships is that it is the business and economic considerations

:36:59.:37:01.

that are considered more than maybe some local political objectives,

:37:02.:37:04.

that is a great change we have brought in and far less pork barrel

:37:05.:37:09.

politics going on in Yorkshire, I hope. There are number of major

:37:10.:37:16.

transport projects in the northern powerhouse but they seem to omit

:37:17.:37:20.

West Cumbria. Will the government do to look at how we can prove our

:37:21.:37:24.

transport inks, particularly looking at the nuclear developers we have

:37:25.:37:30.

locally? We understand that all parts of the country including the

:37:31.:37:34.

peripheral parts benefit from transport investment which is why it

:37:35.:37:42.

is good news that this government does understand that, unlike the

:37:43.:37:45.

previous government that did not see it as a priority. Question 13. My

:37:46.:37:52.

noble friend the Parliamentary undersecretary of state has been in

:37:53.:37:57.

discussion with the driver and vehicle standards agency about

:37:58.:38:00.

trialling changes to the practical driving test to make it more

:38:01.:38:03.

effective in modern driving traditions. We have also been in

:38:04.:38:10.

discussion about future provision of the UK driving theory test. I have

:38:11.:38:15.

received a number of concerns from driving instructors and pupils about

:38:16.:38:19.

significant delays in obtaining dates for tests at the Bletchley

:38:20.:38:25.

Centre in my constituency. DVSA said they are investing more resources

:38:26.:38:29.

but it remains an issue. May he take this up urgently with the new Chief

:38:30.:38:36.

Executive? Demand for driving tests have been increasing rapidly, it has

:38:37.:38:41.

gone up by over 50% since 2013 and we expect that to continue. We have

:38:42.:38:46.

seen the same pattern in HGV tests. The DVSA has responded by bringing

:38:47.:38:53.

in more examiners, and improving forecasting, redeploying examiners

:38:54.:38:58.

to those centres of higher waiting times. I would be happy to take up

:38:59.:39:02.

the Bletchley Centre with the new chief executive. We are also getting

:39:03.:39:07.

complaints in Kettering about delays for driving tests and cancellations

:39:08.:39:14.

of appointment, can our excellent road Minister gets on top of this

:39:15.:39:18.

before it gets out of control? I am happy to take forward these issues

:39:19.:39:22.

wherever we have local problems, for any colleague in these houses, with

:39:23.:39:32.

the DVSA. Under 14. On the 27th of March, during the Easter break when

:39:33.:39:36.

people had plenty of time to read it, we publish the draft cycling and

:39:37.:39:41.

walking strategy. We want everyone in the country including those in

:39:42.:39:48.

rural areas to have access to safe and attractive cycling routes. Local

:39:49.:39:50.

authorities have a detailed understanding of their roots and

:39:51.:39:54.

have the best knowledge of where cyclists could be placed on local

:39:55.:39:59.

roads. Safe and attractive cycling routes are important but a number of

:40:00.:40:04.

cyclists have written to me about the problem of potholes and cycling,

:40:05.:40:08.

something of which I have personal experience and the scars to prove

:40:09.:40:12.

it, I do not intend to show my honourable friend where it is. Will

:40:13.:40:16.

he join me in welcoming the 28.4 million that Lincolnshire County

:40:17.:40:20.

Council are receiving in this year for highways maintenance in terms of

:40:21.:40:24.

financial assistance? Will he also encourage highways officers in

:40:25.:40:27.

Lincolnshire to keep doing what they can to reduce the risks to cyclists

:40:28.:40:31.

from the dangerous potholes? Lincolnshire is a wonderful county

:40:32.:40:36.

to cycle in not least because it is relatively flat. The government has

:40:37.:40:43.

allocated substantial funds for the repair of potholes. I would

:40:44.:40:46.

encourage local authorities to concentrate on how effectively they

:40:47.:40:50.

are using that money, there is some good new technology which will mean

:40:51.:40:53.

that not only potholes can be repaired but they will stay

:40:54.:40:57.

repaired. We often hear stories about temporary repairs opened up

:40:58.:40:58.

quickly. Mr Speaker, in the last six years we

:40:59.:41:08.

have electrified five times as many miles of track than the previous

:41:09.:41:11.

Labour government did in 13 years, and almost all of this work has been

:41:12.:41:15.

in the North of England. I call that good progress. Perhaps the Minister

:41:16.:41:20.

can explain to me why the hundred million pound or to Selby privately

:41:21.:41:28.

financed rail electrification scheme has been stuck in the Department for

:41:29.:41:34.

Transport for nearly two years now? Her department is announcing schemes

:41:35.:41:38.

like the 27 billion is the Crossrail two between Hertfordshire and

:41:39.:41:40.

Surbiton but if she is really serious about the Northern

:41:41.:41:43.

Powerhouse, why can she not get a break alarm and get this privately

:41:44.:41:53.

financed scheme actually happening? I think that is Humberside for a

:41:54.:41:58.

wiggle, but I completely share the lady's enthusiasm for faster rail

:41:59.:42:03.

for her constituents, which is why the new franchise that we let last

:42:04.:42:07.

year will give her constituents brand new trains, more services,

:42:08.:42:14.

more direct connections, and Hull is getting 1.4 million for its new

:42:15.:42:16.

station in time for it to take its pride of place in time for the UK

:42:17.:42:21.

city of culture 2017. She should be pleased that. We may be losing our

:42:22.:42:28.

direct link to South Manchester and the airport through Piccadilly. Why

:42:29.:42:31.

is this happening and how is it progress? Mr Speaker, the honourable

:42:32.:42:38.

gentleman is raising a service question to me that I am not a cross

:42:39.:42:46.

but I will get back to him. Topical questions. We continue to do that on

:42:47.:42:51.

issues that affect the motorist. Following the findings last year

:42:52.:43:02.

to ensure that similar devices were not present on other models. The

:43:03.:43:08.

test confirmed that they were not, but the tests did confirm that

:43:09.:43:11.

existing lab tests designed to ensure emission limits were met are

:43:12.:43:16.

inadequate, and this is why we have been at the forefront of securing a

:43:17.:43:21.

tough new European wide real driving test emissions tests. We also have

:43:22.:43:29.

announced further funding to help with the problem of potholes based

:43:30.:43:35.

across the country. Mr Speaker, I recently completed a blindfolded

:43:36.:43:39.

walk with that excellent charity, guide dogs, to try to understand the

:43:40.:43:41.

challenges faced by visually impaired people. I am greatly

:43:42.:43:47.

supportive of their campaign to improve access for guide dog owners

:43:48.:43:52.

with the dogs. It is not right that they can often be refused access to

:43:53.:43:57.

businesses and services because the dogs with them. What steps is the

:43:58.:44:03.

Secretary of State taking to ensure that taxi and private vehicle

:44:04.:44:07.

drivers receive adequate disability awareness training, because there

:44:08.:44:10.

are still a large number of guide dog owners that are being turned

:44:11.:44:13.

away from these vital transport services? Mr Speaker, I am grateful

:44:14.:44:19.

for the point my honourable friend makes and entirely agree with the

:44:20.:44:24.

point she makes. Taxi and private trading higher vehicles are

:44:25.:44:27.

essential for many disabled people. Drivers are required to make

:44:28.:44:31.

reasonable adjustments for disabled passengers, and it is a criminal

:44:32.:44:36.

offence to refuse and assistance dog. Failure to comply with this

:44:37.:44:39.

requirement cameras in prosecution and a fine on conviction up to

:44:40.:44:48.

?1000. A driver was recently fined ?1546 for refusing access to a guide

:44:49.:44:53.

dog, which includes a legal costs, Inc ordering -- in addition to the

:44:54.:44:56.

fine, and I think that message needs to go out right across the whole

:44:57.:44:59.

industry and we will draw it to the attention of the licensing

:45:00.:45:08.

authorities. On Monday, the Ministry of state said Volkswagen Arena fixed

:45:09.:45:13.

any cars yet in this country. Mr Speaker, Knox emissions pose a

:45:14.:45:18.

serious health risk to drivers, and everyone, and as he acknowledged, we

:45:19.:45:22.

now know that all manufacturers produce diesel models that pollute

:45:23.:45:32.

above approved limits. How is he going to affect nox emissions, and

:45:33.:45:35.

will he take further action that when it comes to Volkswagen the UK

:45:36.:45:40.

is not left at the back of the queue? The Ministry of state and

:45:41.:45:46.

myself have been dealing with this matter but before I get to being

:45:47.:45:51.

attacked for not doing sufficient, I think the honourable lady needs to

:45:52.:45:53.

remind who started the - the diesel. He reduced diesel cars to 20% of the

:45:54.:46:18.

UK fleet. Of course those decisions were based on the science at the

:46:19.:46:25.

time. But as he knows, American owners may be entitled up to $5,000

:46:26.:46:30.

in compensation while the owners of 1.2 million VW vehicles in this

:46:31.:46:34.

country are not receiving a penny. Last week, the number ten press

:46:35.:46:38.

machine was assuring us that the Transport Secretary has pressed VW

:46:39.:46:41.

on the specific issue of this discrepancy of compensation. But on

:46:42.:46:46.

Monday the ministry of state said compensation was a matter for the

:46:47.:46:48.

courts and not ministers. Mr Speaker, this is a matter of basic

:46:49.:46:53.

fairness. So when is the Transport Secretary going to step up a gear

:46:54.:46:56.

and fight for a decent compensation deal for UK Volkswagen drivers? We

:46:57.:47:02.

have made it perfectly clear, I have made it clear in meetings I have

:47:03.:47:07.

had, my honourable friend the Minister of State has made it clear

:47:08.:47:11.

not just with box wagon but other manufacturers as well, that this is

:47:12.:47:15.

a subject we take very seriously. We want to see action taking place, but

:47:16.:47:18.

I am glad the honourable lady said that was based when she responded to

:47:19.:47:24.

the huge increase in diesel cars in this country. It was based on

:47:25.:47:28.

evidence at the time. It just shows not the proper research was done at

:47:29.:47:34.

the time. The Minister will be aware the House of Lords has recently

:47:35.:47:39.

completed a review into the impact into the equality act on disabled

:47:40.:47:44.

people, a large part of which focused on accessible at it to taxes

:47:45.:47:48.

and private hire vehicles. Can the house be updated on this? I can

:47:49.:47:57.

indeed update the house. The government is committed to ensuring

:47:58.:48:00.

that disabled people have the same access to transport services and

:48:01.:48:03.

opportunities to travel as everybody is within our society. We plan to

:48:04.:48:08.

comment sections 165 and 167 of the equality act 2010 by the end of this

:48:09.:48:12.

year. I was pleased to see this raised in the Lords report. I had

:48:13.:48:15.

been working on it for some time in this section will require drivers to

:48:16.:48:18.

provide assistance to wheelchair users and a friend from charging

:48:19.:48:25.

extra. Will the Minister take the trouble to come to the north-east

:48:26.:48:32.

and take the train from Lumb for Middlesbrough to Newcastle, an

:48:33.:48:34.

ancient place of train that takes almost 90 minutes, you could almost

:48:35.:48:39.

do the journey quicker by bicycle. If we had a new train every time

:48:40.:48:42.

they had been an announcement that they would be replaced, we would

:48:43.:48:45.

have a whole fleet. But if a minister came and got a wiggle on,

:48:46.:48:53.

it might... LAUGHTER I think I need a bit of mentoring in

:48:54.:48:59.

some dialect that is being used this morning. What I would say is that in

:49:00.:49:08.

the 13 years that the last government were in operation, they

:49:09.:49:13.

did nothing to improve the system. I am very glad to say that by 2020

:49:14.:49:17.

there will be new trains operating on the lines he is talking about, as

:49:18.:49:22.

a result of a decision I took which to override the advice and to

:49:23.:49:26.

instruct the permanent secretary that we would have new trains on

:49:27.:49:29.

that particular line and it is a decision I am very proud. Network

:49:30.:49:37.

Rail, every time I come across it, seems to have a great deal of power

:49:38.:49:42.

but to be utterly unaccountable to central government. As we are seeing

:49:43.:49:44.

in Lincolnshire, that power that Network Rail has can be used to

:49:45.:49:48.

frustrate growth infrastructure schemes which have the support of

:49:49.:49:51.

local authorities. What can be done by my right honourable friend to

:49:52.:49:55.

ensure that Network Rail does not surrender schemes in the best

:49:56.:49:57.

interests of local people and are supported by local authorities? Mr

:49:58.:50:03.

Speaker, the best schemes are those that are strongly supported by local

:50:04.:50:08.

authorities and local businesses, and Network Rail is in a new phase

:50:09.:50:11.

where the root responsibility will be devolved, and they will be

:50:12.:50:14.

working to a set of investment plans agreed based on a very important

:50:15.:50:20.

bottom-up analysis. Over the last ten years, the destination and

:50:21.:50:24.

routes from Scotland have doubled, flights to London have fallen by

:50:25.:50:27.

more than a third. Not only do we need starter routes, but up the

:50:28.:50:33.

frequency in these routes and guarantee them, which would allow

:50:34.:50:36.

them to bed in and be fully established. Will the Minister

:50:37.:50:40.

establish a point-to-point public service obligation, including

:50:41.:50:43.

specific regional hub airports, and do all he can to create BSOs for

:50:44.:50:49.

airports such as in sky in my constituency. We understand that

:50:50.:50:57.

importance. I am very pleased we have seen such a successful uptake

:50:58.:51:01.

of these, and a number of routes have been studied which have not

:51:02.:51:11.

acquired subsidies. The slogan of cross-country trains is going that

:51:12.:51:14.

bit further, and my constituents would be delighted if they did

:51:15.:51:17.

exactly that and instruct did more than three out of 63 trains on the

:51:18.:51:22.

InterCity service between Birmingham and Bristol to stop at the city of

:51:23.:51:27.

Gloucester. Would my honourable friend confirm whether the

:51:28.:51:30.

department would require cross-country to restore decent

:51:31.:51:33.

services on that line is part of their franchise extension? Nobody

:51:34.:51:38.

could be more assiduous in calling for those service requirements, but

:51:39.:51:44.

of course what we must not have his services to cities like Cheltenham

:51:45.:51:49.

lost as a change he is requiring. I can confirm discussions are ongoing.

:51:50.:51:52.

We have asked cross-country to report on the best way to deliver

:51:53.:51:56.

the services he is talking about. I am looking forward to discussing

:51:57.:52:08.

that with him shortly. Despite the Secretary of State's pride, the

:52:09.:52:11.

North remains hugely underinvested in transport terms in comparison

:52:12.:52:16.

with London especially by a ratio of 24 to one. Now ministers are saying

:52:17.:52:19.

they are going to cut the subsidy to the Northern franchise by up to 85%.

:52:20.:52:24.

Does he really think it adds to the credibility of the Northern

:52:25.:52:29.

powerhouse that it takes half a day to cross it didn't trains better

:52:30.:52:34.

suited to a railway museum? What I would like to offer politicians is

:52:35.:52:37.

another briefing about what these new franchises are going to deliver.

:52:38.:52:42.

It sounds a bit like the generation game, Mr Speaker, but her

:52:43.:52:44.

constituents, thanks to my government, are going to get rid of

:52:45.:52:48.

those outdated trains, get many more services and much better quality,

:52:49.:52:51.

and that will be delivered at less cost to the taxpayer. Only a Labour

:52:52.:52:59.

politician could argue for worse services and less subsidy, Mr

:53:00.:53:04.

Speaker. We have been very positive about the new Northern rain --

:53:05.:53:07.

Northern Rail franchise but there are throngs of people who want to

:53:08.:53:11.

get from Leeds to Google, but are incapable of doing that at the

:53:12.:53:15.

moment, and there may even be some who want to get from Google to

:53:16.:53:18.

Leeds. They are unable to the moment. It is the same on the break

:53:19.:53:22.

to Sheffield line. Very underutilised lines. What

:53:23.:53:27.

opportunities and -- are there to get those improved services and will

:53:28.:53:30.

the Minister come and ride the train with us? I think the Honourable

:53:31.:53:39.

Speaker wanted the rail minister, rather than him. LAUGHTER

:53:40.:53:44.

I think he is lumbered with the Secretary of State! What he wants

:53:45.:53:48.

and what he gets, Mr Speaker, our two entirely different points.

:53:49.:53:54.

LAUGHTER I am very grateful to my honourable

:53:55.:54:00.

friend for talking about the need to improve capacity on the networks,

:54:01.:54:03.

and I am very interested here of all the people that wish to travel,

:54:04.:54:10.

lying, I think the new rail franchise given for the North will

:54:11.:54:13.

give a tremendous increase in capacity, and a lot of new routes,

:54:14.:54:17.

and we will see whether his arguments stand up. With the 400th

:54:18.:54:24.

anniversary of the Pilgrim Fathers, can we get a helping hand to do up

:54:25.:54:29.

Retford railway station, including the car parking, so that people can

:54:30.:54:34.

see the best of British when they visit my area? Mr Speaker, I think

:54:35.:54:41.

the honourable member is far more familiar with Retford station than I

:54:42.:54:46.

am afraid I am, but it is certainly something that would be considered

:54:47.:54:50.

in the local growth fund, and I would suggest that he goes through

:54:51.:54:56.

the necessary procedures to encourage his Citroen two to apply

:54:57.:55:02.

for it. The road master velocity patch can fill 300 potholes in a

:55:03.:55:06.

day, and Lincolnshire has got one! But we would like more. What can the

:55:07.:55:13.

Minister offer my county council by way of help to either get more, and

:55:14.:55:19.

would he consider incentivising councils to work together so that we

:55:20.:55:23.

can increase the nationwide fleet of these fantastic machines? I am aware

:55:24.:55:34.

of the road master velocity patch. The government certainly supports

:55:35.:55:38.

the use of innovative and efficient methods. -- Roadmaster Velocity

:55:39.:55:51.

Patcher. Valli it includes an element of collaboration, so I would

:55:52.:55:54.

like to see local authorities working with their neighbours right

:55:55.:55:57.

across the country in exactly the same way as my honourable friend

:55:58.:56:02.

describes. The Minister clearly enjoys a life of undiluted

:56:03.:56:05.

excitement! LAUGHTER Mr Carmichael. What is the

:56:06.:56:12.

government doing to stem the flow of job losses amongst British qualified

:56:13.:56:18.

seafarers? And particular, will be shipping minister have a look at how

:56:19.:56:22.

some of our own regulation is operating here? My constituents tell

:56:23.:56:26.

me that the operation of the certificates of the equivalent in

:56:27.:56:29.

confidence for example putting them at a disadvantage, compared to

:56:30.:56:33.

seafarers from other parts of the world.

:56:34.:56:38.

Thank you. We certainly have the best qualified seafarers in the

:56:39.:56:45.

world, not due in no small part to the schemes and funding of ?15

:56:46.:56:50.

million per year. It is of concern if people less qualified are taking

:56:51.:56:53.

jobs and I know of particular problems in the North Sea and this

:56:54.:56:58.

is something I would be very pleased to talk about with the honourable

:56:59.:57:02.

gentleman in more detail. Can my honourable friend reassure me that

:57:03.:57:09.

the Department is investing in in apprentice training programmes so

:57:10.:57:13.

that the country has the skills to carry on without world leading

:57:14.:57:16.

transport programme and improvements? I can indeed give my

:57:17.:57:21.

honourable friend that insurance -- assurance. The strategy sets targets

:57:22.:57:27.

for ensuring apprenticeship throughout the scheme and will

:57:28.:57:31.

deliver them within contracts. One apprenticeship will be created for

:57:32.:57:37.

everyone with ?5 million worth of scheme and they are at the heart of

:57:38.:57:43.

our agenda. I will freely admit I want the Secretary of State and I

:57:44.:57:49.

hope I am going to get him, because he has visited my constituency and

:57:50.:57:56.

he knows it is being used as a slip road off the M25 through a

:57:57.:58:00.

residential area with a very serious accident area -- accident record and

:58:01.:58:05.

a lot of freight coming into North London using it as a wheat to

:58:06.:58:10.

central London. Can I ask him in good faith to meet with me and two

:58:11.:58:15.

of the leading resident representatives to discuss this

:58:16.:58:18.

very, very serious issue and find a satisfactory way forward? Sometimes

:58:19.:58:28.

you get what you want, Mr Speaker. I'm more than happy to meet the

:58:29.:58:31.

honourable member on this. There does seem to be some confusion as to

:58:32.:58:35.

whether it is a matter for transport for London or highways England, but

:58:36.:58:41.

that is no answer to the people suffering the problems. It is a very

:58:42.:58:46.

difficult area to deal with because of all the residential implications

:58:47.:58:53.

but we will have that meeting. I don't really care who answers the

:58:54.:58:57.

question, but from the minister's description earlier, the local major

:58:58.:59:03.

transports fund could have been made for the Southern Link project in

:59:04.:59:09.

Worcester that I understand a bit with the tinfoil and can I say to

:59:10.:59:12.

the Secretary of State and his team that they should be no wiggle room

:59:13.:59:19.

for them in approving this project? I visited almost a year ago to the

:59:20.:59:27.

day the site which my honourable friend refers to. I viewed

:59:28.:59:33.

Carrington Bridge from a site which was previously opened by his father

:59:34.:59:39.

some 30 years before that. I think the point that my honourable friend

:59:40.:59:44.

makes about this being a suitable scheme for the local major 's fund

:59:45.:59:46.

is one that should be considered and I urge the local authority to put an

:59:47.:59:53.

application in for it to be considered. Will the Secretary of

:59:54.:59:58.

State work with the new Labour, obviously, man of London to ensure

:59:59.:00:06.

the effective development of the HS2 Crossrail interchange? Will he

:00:07.:00:08.

revisit the deal that he did with the current Mayor of London in 2014

:00:09.:00:12.

which means that no development can take place on the site unless there

:00:13.:00:19.

is a very expensive movement of the lines almost as soon as they open?

:00:20.:00:29.

Unlike the honourable member, I take no elections for granted but I very

:00:30.:00:34.

much hope the London mayor will be the honourable member for Richmond

:00:35.:00:39.

who will work better with the Government banned the honourable

:00:40.:00:44.

member for teaching. As far as the comment goes, it is important when

:00:45.:00:47.

we talk about the infrastructure where that site is concerned, it is

:00:48.:00:52.

going to be a major transport hub in the United Kingdom and getting it

:00:53.:00:59.

right is very important. The Department has responsibilities to a

:01:00.:01:04.

lumber of local and national transport infrastructure projects

:01:05.:01:11.

and will the member of state right into contracts that we will put you

:01:12.:01:16.

at British Steel for these projects? I am very happy to say that we have

:01:17.:01:21.

made a number of changes to our procurement process to exactly

:01:22.:01:23.

reflect the point is that my honourable friend makes and where

:01:24.:01:28.

ever we can, we should be supporting our own industry. It has to be on a

:01:29.:01:36.

fair basis. There are special cases around British Steel and 98% of the

:01:37.:01:42.

bridge -ish -- this deal we purchase is British Steel. Urgent question,

:01:43.:01:51.

Mr Bernard Jenkin. I am most grateful to ask the Prime Minister

:01:52.:01:58.

if he will ask for an enquiry to be launched on whether discussions

:01:59.:02:04.

between the trade unions and the Labour Party on amendments of the

:02:05.:02:10.

trade union Beale -- trade union bill constitute a breach of the

:02:11.:02:20.

conduct. The Cabinet Office has advised me that there is no breach

:02:21.:02:24.

and nothing for the priming is to's adviser on ministerial interest to

:02:25.:02:30.

investigate. As is customary at such times, ministers have had regular

:02:31.:02:35.

discussions with Jago ministers to discuss possible... On the basis of

:02:36.:02:47.

discussions yesterday evening, I can reassure my honourable friend that

:02:48.:02:52.

we are well on our way to ensuring all of our manifesto commitments.

:02:53.:02:56.

Reforms to the role of the acidification of this, a tightening

:02:57.:03:03.

up of rules around the location time, and introduction of a

:03:04.:03:07.

transparent opt in process and a tightening up of intimidation of

:03:08.:03:10.

non-striking members. The question of compulsory opt in to trade union

:03:11.:03:18.

funds was one of the most contentious, especially in the

:03:19.:03:23.

Lords. The Lords referred it to a special committee. Following the

:03:24.:03:27.

select committee's report, the House of Lords voted by a large majority

:03:28.:03:34.

to accept an amendment to restrict the opt in to new members and

:03:35.:03:38.

exclude current trade union members. My honourable friend will not be

:03:39.:03:43.

surprised to learn that I speak to trade unions and the secretary of

:03:44.:03:54.

the TUC regularly. Trade union support for the campaign to remain

:03:55.:03:58.

in the European Union is not new and should not come aces -- as a

:03:59.:04:02.

surprise to anybody. The TUC declared its support in February, eg

:04:03.:04:08.

you be -- DNB did the same in February, unite in March and Unison

:04:09.:04:19.

in April. We all remember the Prime Minister for telling that the next

:04:20.:04:23.

scandal would be a lobbying scandal and had -- here it is. Trade union

:04:24.:04:28.

members have been complaining that have been unable to campaign for the

:04:29.:04:51.

in... The result of this amendment means that a 19-year-old who has

:04:52.:04:56.

just started a job and is a member of a trade union will now never be

:04:57.:05:00.

asked if he wants his political fund subscriptions to be taken out of his

:05:01.:05:05.

pay packet. The Prime Minister told the House of Commons on the 15th of

:05:06.:05:09.

July last year, there is a very simple principle here. Giving money

:05:10.:05:13.

to a party should be an act of free will, money should not be taken out

:05:14.:05:16.

of pay packets without them being told properly about it. He likened

:05:17.:05:21.

it to mis-selling. The minister in the Other Place described the

:05:22.:05:26.

Labour's amendment, which the Government has accepted, as a

:05:27.:05:30.

wrecking amendment on the 16th of March this year. Yesterday, the

:05:31.:05:35.

Minister's concession was wholly unexpected and my right honourable

:05:36.:05:40.

friend for Grantham and Stanford announced his decision to abandon

:05:41.:05:45.

the opposition to the bill. It is now being reported that these

:05:46.:05:49.

unexpected concessions are linked to the question of a ?1.7 million

:05:50.:05:55.

donation that trade unions make from their political funds, which are now

:05:56.:05:58.

much larger than they would have been, to the Labour remain campaign.

:05:59.:06:05.

Until very recently, the honourable gentleman for Hull West and hassle,

:06:06.:06:12.

was trying to raise ?75,000 for the loons and badges. Now they are

:06:13.:06:17.

getting ?1.7 million. It has been confirmed to me through more than

:06:18.:06:21.

two independent sources that number ten instructed these concessions to

:06:22.:06:27.

be made after the discussions with trade union representatives. This

:06:28.:06:33.

being true would amend -- add to the sale of Government policy for cash

:06:34.:06:36.

and political favours. Lest there be any doubt about the propriety -- the

:06:37.:06:47.

impropriety of this deal, the leader of Her Majesty's opposition should

:06:48.:06:52.

ask themselves this question -- what would they be saying if this

:06:53.:06:55.

Government had altered the bill in order to give money to the

:06:56.:06:59.

Conservative Party or to the Conservative Party's remain

:07:00.:07:03.

campaign? My honourable friend should ask himself this question.

:07:04.:07:05.

What would be the reaction if the Labour Government had changed a bill

:07:06.:07:14.

to favour the Labour's ability to favour it self. This stinks as cash

:07:15.:07:21.

for questions and shows this Government really is at the rotten

:07:22.:07:24.

heart of the European Union. The seven principles of public life

:07:25.:07:29.

requires public office holders, and I quote, to avoid placing themselves

:07:30.:07:35.

under any obligation to people or organisations that might try

:07:36.:07:38.

inappropriately to influence their work. The ministerial code states

:07:39.:07:44.

that ministers must ensure that no conflict arises or appears to arise

:07:45.:07:48.

between their public duties and their private interests. In this

:07:49.:07:53.

matter, the Labour Party constitutes one of their private interests. Will

:07:54.:07:57.

my right honourable friend the Prime Minister instructed friend on

:07:58.:08:03.

parliamentary interest to launch this investigation. If my honourable

:08:04.:08:07.

friend is right, he has nothing to fear from such an investigation.

:08:08.:08:15.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. If I can start by saying I have the greatest

:08:16.:08:19.

possible respect from the passion and commitment which has lasted not

:08:20.:08:23.

just for years but for decades that my honourable friend has brought to

:08:24.:08:27.

the cause which he is now advocating with such vigour that we should

:08:28.:08:32.

leave the European Union. I have nothing but total respect for that

:08:33.:08:37.

passion and commitment. So I just want to gently correct him on a view

:08:38.:08:41.

points of fact, because he has been focusing so much on the very

:08:42.:08:45.

important question that there are a number of things that he's adjusted

:08:46.:08:48.

which are absolutely correct about the way that the current mechanism

:08:49.:08:54.

for union members subscriptions to the political fund works. The first

:08:55.:08:59.

point to make is to say that it is not the case that somebody who has

:09:00.:09:03.

recently joined a trade union, to whom there for the new requirement

:09:04.:09:08.

for an optimal not apply, is never asked whether they want to pay into

:09:09.:09:12.

the political levy. Very far from it. There is a long-standing legal

:09:13.:09:18.

requirement that they are offered an opt out of that political levy and

:09:19.:09:23.

that that is something communicated very clearly to them and it is not

:09:24.:09:28.

just a one-time thing. It is not something they are offered when they

:09:29.:09:32.

join, it is something they can exercise at any time and need to be

:09:33.:09:39.

reminded of on a regular basis. The other thing to say to my honourable

:09:40.:09:43.

friend is that while estimates vary from different unions, the overall

:09:44.:09:49.

estimate for trade union membership is that roughly 13 to 14% of all

:09:50.:09:55.

members of a trade union joined in the last year. That means that over

:09:56.:10:01.

the time of this Parliament, I'm not going to suggest that all members of

:10:02.:10:06.

trade unions will have needed to opt into the political fund, but a very

:10:07.:10:10.

substantial proportion will have. The argument that was made, and this

:10:11.:10:15.

was not a point made... I'm afraid he is also not correct to say this

:10:16.:10:22.

was an amendment made by Labour. It was made by the honourable member,

:10:23.:10:26.

Lord Burns, someone that I know he has great respect of, who is

:10:27.:10:32.

fiercely independent, and that flowed out of a committee in which

:10:33.:10:35.

there was some this representation of all parties. The amendment was

:10:36.:10:41.

very clearly inspired by Lord Burns when he said that it was not

:10:42.:10:45.

reasonable to ask people who have signed up to an arrangement in good

:10:46.:10:50.

faith to then have to you sign up again through a different process

:10:51.:10:55.

simply because we have changed the law later. I did not agree with that

:10:56.:10:59.

argument and nor did we in this House, but as is often the case,

:11:00.:11:03.

when the House of Lords feels very, very strongly on an issue, there is

:11:04.:11:08.

a very large majority against the Government's position. When an

:11:09.:11:14.

independent member of the House of Lords has moved an amendment which

:11:15.:11:18.

has secured support not just from the official opposition, not just

:11:19.:11:22.

from the Liberal Democrats, but from a huge number of crossbenchers and

:11:23.:11:26.

not just from crossbenchers, but from some very significant members

:11:27.:11:31.

of our own party, and I would simply urge him to look at the people who

:11:32.:11:34.

both spoke in the debate and voted or assertively chose not to vote in

:11:35.:11:41.

support of the garment's position. They include not just the noble lord

:11:42.:11:46.

Cormack and the noble lord boughs, they also include the noble Lord

:11:47.:11:53.

Forsyth, who supports the same campaign in the European Union that

:11:54.:11:56.

he supported and who both privately and publicly said that he thought it

:11:57.:12:01.

was a profound error for us to pursue a compulsory opt in for all

:12:02.:12:03.

existing members. Finally, Mr Speak, my honourable

:12:04.:12:16.

friend suggested that it is inappropriate, of course, for

:12:17.:12:20.

Government to do anything for private interests, in terms of

:12:21.:12:26.

making changes to legislation, further private interests. Of

:12:27.:12:29.

course, he is right. It is not right and not neven the passion of the

:12:30.:12:35.

moment is it fair to categorise the Government's support, the official

:12:36.:12:39.

policy of Her Majesty's Government. We support the proposition that the

:12:40.:12:45.

United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union. He

:12:46.:12:49.

disagrees, but it is not a private interest, it is Government policy.

:12:50.:12:53.

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker and it is very good to have this further

:12:54.:13:02.

opportunity to reemphasise our implacable opposition to the trade

:13:03.:13:05.

union bill it is entirely unnecessary. It is bad for workers

:13:06.:13:10.

and it is also bad for businesses. And, as the minister said, the Lord

:13:11.:13:17.

set up a cross-party committee, to look at the trade union and party

:13:18.:13:21.

political funding and that committee came up with a series of Salisbury

:13:22.:13:27.

convention compliance recommendations, which were voted

:13:28.:13:31.

for by a majority of peers from parties. I wonder if the minister

:13:32.:13:37.

can confirm he met with Lord Burns, who made clear the strength of

:13:38.:13:42.

clearing on the other matter. Can he confirm that he has received

:13:43.:13:47.

overwhelming reputations from all quarters, including the trade

:13:48.:13:51.

unions, which by the way, is hardly surprising, give this is the trade

:13:52.:13:55.

union bill that he should receive reputations from the unions. Is it

:13:56.:13:59.

not the case that all these various reputations made clear that the

:14:00.:14:04.

proposals on political funding were unworkable and breached the long

:14:05.:14:08.

established convention that major changes to the funding a political

:14:09.:14:11.

party should only happen by agreement. Now, it would appear, at

:14:12.:14:17.

least partially, that the minister listened. Well done. But he should

:14:18.:14:22.

have listened earlier and he #23450eds to keep listening, actual

:14:23.:14:26.

limit can I ask him now to have a few more meetings with trade unions,

:14:27.:14:31.

who have made entourly reasonable proposals on E balloting and

:14:32.:14:35.

facility time which remain in the bill. There is still time for him to

:14:36.:14:41.

think again. Mr Speaker, I can confirm what the

:14:42.:14:44.

honourable gentleman has said, which is earlier this week that I did hold

:14:45.:14:50.

a meeting, at my request, with the noble Lord Burn, in which I

:14:51.:14:54.

discussed with him an amendment we put down and we were intending to

:14:55.:15:00.

move to this bill. That amendment was one which would still have

:15:01.:15:05.

aapplied the compulsory option to existing members of trade unions,

:15:06.:15:09.

but would have built in a longer period of transition for trade

:15:10.:15:14.

unions to implement this and would have changed the agraments for

:15:15.:15:21.

renewal of their opt-in to align wit the political ballots that need to

:15:22.:15:25.

take place every ten years. I hoped that was a compromise that the noble

:15:26.:15:30.

Lord Burns would feel, if not enthusiastic about, at least able to

:15:31.:15:34.

indicate that he would not actively oppose when the bill went back to

:15:35.:15:40.

the Upper House in the next stage of ping-pong. And the nobble Lord

:15:41.:15:50.

Burns, who is a man I have huge admiration and liking, was very,

:15:51.:15:54.

very clear to me that he felt that was not an exception able

:15:55.:15:59.

compromise, that not just would he not support it, he would actively

:16:00.:16:05.

the reinstatement of his amendment. He made clear his judgment was not

:16:06.:16:09.

so much a political one or, and certainly not inspired by questions

:16:10.:16:13.

around the balance of party funding, it was simply based on his

:16:14.:16:16.

experience in the financial services industry, which is where he said

:16:17.:16:20.

that it is very, very unfair to ask people to sign up to new things when

:16:21.:16:26.

they have already expressed an opinion on that very same question

:16:27.:16:29.

by a means which was previously legal. He said that applied in this

:16:30.:16:33.

case and he thought that it was wrong and that he could not support

:16:34.:16:38.

it. We then reflected on Lord Burns'

:16:39.:16:43.

position and moved the amendments that we passed last night. As for

:16:44.:16:48.

the honourable member's comments about the rest of the bill, I just

:16:49.:16:54.

have to be very, very clear with him and with honourable members on his

:16:55.:17:00.

side, this bill is going to dramatically improve the state of

:17:01.:17:05.

employment relations and the state of industrial action. At the moment

:17:06.:17:12.

a trade union, like various education trade unions, can hold a

:17:13.:17:16.

strike three years after a ballot has been passed with the turnout of

:17:17.:17:23.

less than 20% of their members and still close over 1,000 colleges.

:17:24.:17:27.

That is currently legal. When the bill, that with the support of my

:17:28.:17:33.

honourable friend, we are passing in this House, and I anticipate the

:17:34.:17:39.

nobble Lords will pass next week, when that achieves royal consent it

:17:40.:17:43.

will not be possible to inflict on hard-working parents the closure of

:17:44.:17:47.

a school in the middle of a week on the basis of a tiny turnout that

:17:48.:17:51.

would secure -- that was secured several years ago. That is why I am

:17:52.:17:55.

proud of this bill. That is why I think my honourable friend can be

:17:56.:18:00.

proud of this bill. We have secured our manifesto commitments for all

:18:01.:18:03.

working people. The THE SPEAKER: The minister has been

:18:04.:18:08.

diverted from the path of procedure vert cho as a result of the cheeky

:18:09.:18:13.

enquiries of the opposition front bench. We cannot now have a third

:18:14.:18:19.

reading on the trade union bill and must focus narrowly instead upon the

:18:20.:18:22.

matter of the urgent question, which I know will be done faithfully by

:18:23.:18:29.

Lord Liam Fox. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In making this change in

:18:30.:18:34.

the trade union bill and following on from our abavendment of our

:18:35.:18:39.

manifesto commitments on immigration by not rethe goshiating freedom of

:18:40.:18:43.

movement, can he tell us of the commitments he referred, which must

:18:44.:18:48.

not be abandoned in terms of trying to seek a vote. Mr Speaker, your

:18:49.:18:54.

cautionary tone is ringing in my ears. So, I will answer my Right

:18:55.:19:00.

Honourable friend's question by narrowly focussing on the measures

:19:01.:19:04.

in this bill, which demonstrate, I believe, as I said at the start of

:19:05.:19:09.

my statement, that we had genuinely secured everything that was in our

:19:10.:19:13.

manifesto. It is a point that came up in my discussion with Lord Burns

:19:14.:19:18.

who knows a thing or two about legislative drafting. He said he was

:19:19.:19:23.

confident having read and re-read the resis words in our manifesto

:19:24.:19:30.

about the transparent opt-in for the political fund. He was very, very

:19:31.:19:35.

clear that the amendment that he moved and it was passed in the upper

:19:36.:19:40.

place fulfilled that manifesto commitment in full. Not only that,

:19:41.:19:47.

that the further introduction of opt-in to apply to existing members

:19:48.:19:54.

was not given cover by the Salisbury convention and he would made it

:19:55.:19:58.

plain in the Upper House if we were to try and restore that position. I

:19:59.:20:02.

mean no commitment of those who wrote our manifesto because it is a

:20:03.:20:06.

wonderful document which will live through the ages. Their wording was

:20:07.:20:13.

not so precisely established as to ekoo our that additional application

:20:14.:20:17.

of the opt-in to existing members of trade unions. Thank you, Mr Speaker

:20:18.:20:24.

and we want to reiterate on these benches our complete opposition to

:20:25.:20:28.

the trade union bill. Can the minister confirm that it would be

:20:29.:20:33.

strange for a piece of legislation that affects six million workers for

:20:34.:20:37.

a Government not to consult with bodies that represent those six

:20:38.:20:41.

million workers? Can he also confirm that the Government were considering

:20:42.:20:47.

concessions as far as as the 26th January, when a memorandum in his

:20:48.:20:52.

name was leaked to many media outlets? What onof going discussions

:20:53.:20:57.

is he having with devolved institutions who have a major

:20:58.:21:02.

problem with this bill and the time and further issues? Thank you, Mr

:21:03.:21:08.

Speaker. The honourable gentleman made a valuable contribution to our

:21:09.:21:12.

deliberations at all stages, perhaps especially in committee. He was

:21:13.:21:18.

vocal and incisive in his commitment of almost every measure in the bill.

:21:19.:21:23.

Of course he is right. We don't just hold discussions with institutions

:21:24.:21:26.

in society about whom we are legislating. I think it would be a

:21:27.:21:32.

little unfair if we didn't. We invited them to give evidence to the

:21:33.:21:36.

committee. We had one of the most terrifying sightsvy seen in long

:21:37.:21:40.

time, which is the General Secretary of Unite, the General of GMB and of

:21:41.:21:46.

the TUC, all sitting in a row, giving evidence to that committee.

:21:47.:21:49.

So, of course it was right to do that. He's also right that we

:21:50.:21:54.

consulted with a devolved administration. I have had a number

:21:55.:22:00.

of conversations on phone and in person with ministers in the

:22:01.:22:03.

devolved Governments who have expressed concern about whether all

:22:04.:22:07.

the provisions in the bill should properly apply to them, although we

:22:08.:22:09.

are confident that all the provisions in the bill relate to

:22:10.:22:14.

observed matters and therefore apply to everyone and every trade union in

:22:15.:22:19.

the United Kingdom. I chaired the trade union bill and committee. If I

:22:20.:22:23.

am not going to comment on the trade union bill, was I can made a

:22:24.:22:27.

constitutional point? There would be concern if, as part of the ping-pong

:22:28.:22:33.

process, any Government, at any time made concessions on a bill, as a

:22:34.:22:36.

result of something which had nothing to do with that bill.

:22:37.:22:40.

My honourable friend is an honourable man and I am sure he can

:22:41.:22:45.

confirm that no Government of which he was a part would ever do that.

:22:46.:22:52.

Mr Speaker, I think I have expressed -- explained clearly what the

:22:53.:22:57.

process was. I speak for myself in simply saying when I met the

:22:58.:23:03.

immovable force of the Lord Burns, I decided that maybe discretion was

:23:04.:23:06.

the better part of valour. That's not to say that Government ministers

:23:07.:23:10.

don't have discussions on all sorts of issues with all sorts of people

:23:11.:23:14.

in society. And it is the Government's policy to

:23:15.:23:23.

support the Remain Remain campaign. The General Secretary of TUC is a

:23:24.:23:27.

member and has been for months and the trade unionsvy have listed have

:23:28.:23:31.

made their positions clear, long before this bill came back to this

:23:32.:23:36.

House or was considered in connection with the opt-in the Upper

:23:37.:23:41.

House. So, I just gently say to my honourable and Right Honourable

:23:42.:23:46.

friends that not every compromise is a conspiracy.

:23:47.:23:55.

THE SPEAKER: Mr Denis Skipper. -- Ski in, ner.

:23:56.:24:00.

Now that the Government are calling to this barmy idea which has been

:24:01.:24:04.

propagated this morning from the right-wing of the Tory Party, now

:24:05.:24:09.

that the Government has seemingly prepared to give way on different

:24:10.:24:15.

subjects, can I ask him, what is the price for dropping this lousy,

:24:16.:24:22.

rotten trade union bill at? -- all together?

:24:23.:24:27.

Mr Speaker, it is the goal of my life to give pleasure to the

:24:28.:24:31.

honourable gentleman. I have to, I am afraid, I have to

:24:32.:24:38.

tell him that there is no price, because we believe in this bill, we

:24:39.:24:42.

believe in our manifesto. And we are well on the way to delivering it.

:24:43.:24:51.

I hope the minister will understand that when we read from a senior

:24:52.:24:56.

political journalist in the Telegraph the following words, "Last

:24:57.:25:00.

night a union source said bosses had always been clear it would be

:25:01.:25:03.

difficult to spend significant amounts on the campaign to keep

:25:04.:25:07.

Britain in the Union, whilst fighting against the trade union

:25:08.:25:11.

bill, but they revealed that unions will now step up their campaigning

:25:12.:25:16.

and funding efforts in light of the concessions." He can well understand

:25:17.:25:20.

why people are asking these questions. Can he confirm right now

:25:21.:25:25.

that this journalist is absolutely wrong? Her sources are incorrect and

:25:26.:25:29.

no such trade took place? Mr Speaker, I am afraid I am going

:25:30.:25:34.

to have to repeat what I have already said, which is there is a

:25:35.:25:38.

natural process towards the end oh of a parliamentary session, where

:25:39.:25:42.

concessions are made on bills in order to secure their timely

:25:43.:25:48.

passage. What trade unions decide to do about their long-standing

:25:49.:25:52.

commitment to back the remain campaign is entirely a matter for

:25:53.:26:02.

them. I think this is a very rare occurrence for the Government to

:26:03.:26:06.

actually listen to the Members of Parliament, both in the Upper House

:26:07.:26:10.

and here. And I welcome that. That is the right thing to do. And it is

:26:11.:26:14.

right that they should meet with trade unions. Of course they should.

:26:15.:26:20.

This legislation is an attack on trade unions and does nothing for

:26:21.:26:27.

employer relations whatsoever. It is a wrecking piece of legislation and

:26:28.:26:31.

any concessions, at all, can only improve this bill and I hope we

:26:32.:26:35.

could see more in the short time left to it.

:26:36.:26:41.

Mr Speaker, the honourable lady is far too kind to me. I didn't want to

:26:42.:26:48.

listen at all. I simply acknowledged that when you have a -- an array of

:26:49.:26:54.

forces which includes most of the crossbench, all of the Liberal

:26:55.:26:58.

Democrat party, all of the Labour Party and some very influential

:26:59.:27:05.

Conservative peers, when you have that, neophytes like me in this game

:27:06.:27:15.

perhaps need to admit defeat. It is true that the noble lord, Lord

:27:16.:27:18.

Cormack, is a very special parliamentarian. As the grandson of

:27:19.:27:28.

a trade union shop steward who went on to become a Conservative trade

:27:29.:27:39.

unionist, I can say that has been opposition on this side of the House

:27:40.:27:43.

and can I thank him for listening to that. The debate can family

:27:44.:27:52.

Conservative manifesto piece to improve situations. I thank my

:27:53.:27:58.

honourable friend and his father, who did not just make it to the

:27:59.:28:02.

Other Place but made it into the Cabinet and was a very significant

:28:03.:28:07.

performer in the area of employment law and industrial relations, so we

:28:08.:28:12.

have much to learn from his work, and he is right about that. I hope

:28:13.:28:17.

it is not breaking a confidence to say that there are other members of

:28:18.:28:23.

this House with whom I've had conversations about the specific

:28:24.:28:26.

provision who were deeply concerned about them and they do include among

:28:27.:28:33.

them, I don't think I should mention their names, they include among them

:28:34.:28:38.

leading supporters of those in the campaign to leave the European

:28:39.:28:45.

Union. Can there be any psychological explanation why so

:28:46.:28:49.

many Tory MPs have such a loathing of trade unions? I do not recognise

:28:50.:28:55.

that loathing and I certainly don't feel it myself. Can I join with my

:28:56.:29:04.

honourable friend from Worcester to say firstly congratulations to the

:29:05.:29:10.

minister in the way that he has handled this bill but also to ask

:29:11.:29:15.

him, again, if it is not the case that he has had conversations with

:29:16.:29:19.

many people on all sides of the House, including this side of the

:29:20.:29:23.

House, both here and in the Other Place about their concerns and that

:29:24.:29:26.

many of those concerns have been addressed without any contributions

:29:27.:29:30.

being made at all to us? I can confirm that and none more important

:29:31.:29:37.

than my honourable friend who had some very serious concerns which he

:29:38.:29:40.

did exactly the right thing, you came to see me privately about them

:29:41.:29:44.

as we were deliberating in this House, he laid an amendment at

:29:45.:29:47.

reports state which he then did not move because I gave him reassurance

:29:48.:29:51.

we would look closely at it as the Bill progressed and while he was not

:29:52.:29:57.

here, I mentioned specifically yesterday that he had been hugely

:29:58.:30:00.

influential in our decision ultimately not to press ahead with

:30:01.:30:08.

the decision to remove the check arrangement from trade unions the

:30:09.:30:13.

public sector. Can I declare an interest as someone who has been in

:30:14.:30:19.

the following level -- for an levy since 1969, and the former head of

:30:20.:30:26.

the trade union. The trade unions are clear. They do not want this

:30:27.:30:31.

bill at all. Even Winston Churchill spoke against what they are trying

:30:32.:30:37.

to do and what ever gossip people are hearing, there is no doubt that

:30:38.:30:43.

the trade unions vote would be Labour Party's remain campaign

:30:44.:30:49.

because they realise that the right-wing reactionaries who would

:30:50.:30:54.

deregulate this nation would be bad for employers -- employees. I think

:30:55.:31:04.

the honourable gentleman's words speak for themselves and they are

:31:05.:31:10.

very helpful. It is a shabby political episode when the

:31:11.:31:13.

Government has been caught violating trade union legislation to sit

:31:14.:31:19.

persuade the trade unions to come on board with a campaign to stay in the

:31:20.:31:24.

European Union. Isn't it now clear that the Government, big business,

:31:25.:31:28.

the BBC and now the trade unions are all hanging up on British people to

:31:29.:31:32.

try to persuade them to stay in the European Union? Mr Speaker, nothing

:31:33.:31:40.

pains me more than to have clearly angered my own furry friend -- by

:31:41.:31:47.

honorary friend because I have extreme liking for him. I always

:31:48.:31:50.

dropped everything to go to his constituency because he is a great

:31:51.:31:54.

man but I do reject what he has said. I think perhaps in this case

:31:55.:32:00.

he is able the bit blinded by his passion for the issue and I would

:32:01.:32:04.

simply point to him that all he needs to do is to look at the front

:32:05.:32:08.

pages and the editorial pages of every single newspaper that is

:32:09.:32:12.

traditionally seen as a Conservative supporting newspaper to see that

:32:13.:32:16.

there is a balance of opinion in this debate. His arguments are being

:32:17.:32:23.

well represented. Given the impact this bill will have on workers

:32:24.:32:27.

rights across the whole of the United Kingdom, can I ask the

:32:28.:32:31.

minister what discussions he had with the devolved administrations

:32:32.:32:36.

since the Lords amendments? I haven't yet had that pleasure but I

:32:37.:32:42.

anticipate it. Thank you Mr Speaker. This is a very simple issue which

:32:43.:32:46.

the Minister could give a straightforward answer to. The

:32:47.:32:51.

allegation is that the trade union bill was watered down for the

:32:52.:32:55.

benefit of the trade unions on the understanding that they would then

:32:56.:32:59.

make a considerable donation to the campaign to stay in the European

:33:00.:33:03.

Union. Can the Minister give us, with the authority of the dispatch

:33:04.:33:08.

box, a clear denial that any such discussion took place and that in no

:33:09.:33:14.

way whatsoever, no discussions with ministers or officials, in no way

:33:15.:33:18.

what any of the watering down of the trade union Bill done with any

:33:19.:33:22.

mention of any funding for the U remain campaign for the trade

:33:23.:33:26.

unions? It is very simple to deny it if it is not true. Mr Speaker, I

:33:27.:33:33.

aspire to be as straightforward as my honourable friend. I have been

:33:34.:33:37.

very clear. We went through a process of negotiation, not just

:33:38.:33:39.

with Shadow ministers but with members of other parties and in the

:33:40.:33:45.

Other House and we have secured a package, which I have to say I do

:33:46.:33:49.

not believe any honourable member on my side of the House would have

:33:50.:33:52.

predicted when we introduced this bill that we would have secured as

:33:53.:33:57.

much of it as swiftly and as easily as we have, because it was probably

:33:58.:34:00.

the most politically controversial bill in our original Queen 's

:34:01.:34:08.

speech. As for decisions by the trade unions to back the campaign

:34:09.:34:10.

for which they have already declared, long before's -- long

:34:11.:34:15.

before yesterday's considerations of the Bill, I think the honourable

:34:16.:34:19.

gentleman spoke very clearly when he said they would support this

:34:20.:34:23.

campaign full heartedly and full throated Lee because they believe it

:34:24.:34:27.

is in the interests of their members to do so. I do not think there is

:34:28.:34:33.

anything so grubby as a deal but if an agreement was reached can I

:34:34.:34:37.

congratulate the opposition Chief Whip on showing how this can be

:34:38.:34:45.

done? Can I ask him to follow the leadership of the trade unions and

:34:46.:34:49.

contact their members to make the case for year up and the terrible

:34:50.:34:55.

threats for growth if we leave a single market of 500 million

:34:56.:35:00.

consumers? Mr Speaker, I'm not sure if you will that I'm likely answer

:35:01.:35:08.

to that question as directly relevant to the question but I will

:35:09.:35:11.

venture until you stop me. I will venture that small companies have

:35:12.:35:19.

beefs about the European Union, so do I, but ultimately they feel it is

:35:20.:35:24.

in our interest to stay will stop I feel all of us should be doing what

:35:25.:35:28.

we can do to encourage people that we represent to see that their

:35:29.:35:32.

interests are best protected by staying in. The person who asked

:35:33.:35:40.

this question speaks passionately on behalf of of his own union which is

:35:41.:35:47.

the general and municipal union of a Brexit bigots. It is extraordinary

:35:48.:35:53.

that he asks for the advisor on ministerial interest to be woken up

:35:54.:35:58.

from his slumber. He has been virtually unemployed since he was

:35:59.:36:02.

appointed when the previous holder of that office resigned, believing

:36:03.:36:08.

that he should have been called in to investigate the conduct of the

:36:09.:36:13.

Member for North Somerset who -- North Somerset who gained absolution

:36:14.:36:21.

by resignation. As the person asking this question, why isn't he asking

:36:22.:36:25.

for an enquiry into the two ministers who gave ?3 million to

:36:26.:36:29.

Kids Company in the face of advice from their civil servants three days

:36:30.:36:34.

before it collapsed? It is because the office of the advisor had been

:36:35.:36:40.

degraded and politicised. Calm down. Calm. For the benefit of yoga -- the

:36:41.:36:50.

benefit of yoga, even for ministers, should not be underestimated. I want

:36:51.:37:03.

to talk about a pause for order. The reason I didn't intervene when a

:37:04.:37:06.

word was used is because I believe it to be a matter of taste. There

:37:07.:37:12.

was no imputation of dishonour. I mean this in no unkind spirit but

:37:13.:37:17.

the honourable member for Harwich and North Essex and other

:37:18.:37:26.

like-minded souls are perfectly capable of looking after themselves

:37:27.:37:29.

and their honour has not been impugned in any way. That is why the

:37:30.:37:32.

remark stands. The Minister must of course reply. Mr Speaker, there are

:37:33.:37:39.

no bigots on this side of the House, least of all my honourable

:37:40.:37:43.

disavowing to disagree with me on this subject. The honourable

:37:44.:37:49.

gentleman does himself absolutely no credit by hurling that kind of

:37:50.:37:54.

Playschool abuse across this chamber. He is a disgrace, the

:37:55.:37:58.

comment was a disgrace and he should withdraw it. The Minister is

:37:59.:38:05.

entitled to his view and I hope the House won't take offence if I say I

:38:06.:38:14.

will judge if a comment should be withdrawn. I think we should leave

:38:15.:38:24.

it there. If I were to intervene on grounds of order every time a

:38:25.:38:28.

question were not answered nothing else would ever happen in the

:38:29.:38:35.

chamber. I must confess, Mr Speaker, I must find myself amused by this

:38:36.:38:49.

question of urgency. I am restating yet again my absolute opposition to

:38:50.:38:53.

this bill. Can the Minister confirm that trade unions remain a part of

:38:54.:38:57.

civil society and they have an absolute right to make

:38:58.:38:59.

representations on the half of them and the two Government irrespective

:39:00.:39:03.

of what right-wing members of his own backbenchers might wish? Of

:39:04.:39:08.

course I can confirm that but I have to say to the honourable gentleman

:39:09.:39:11.

that frankly the position governing strike action the position governing

:39:12.:39:16.

the proper regulation of trade union activities with regards to finances

:39:17.:39:20.

and membership, the position regarding picketing and intimidation

:39:21.:39:24.

of non-striking workers, all of those were frankly not acceptable

:39:25.:39:29.

until this bill was introduced to this House and remain not acceptable

:39:30.:39:35.

until this bill has secured Royal assent. Of course I accept that

:39:36.:39:39.

trade unions have an important role in society but they needed this

:39:40.:39:43.

reform, they will benefit from this reform and I want to put on my

:39:44.:39:47.

record -- on record my gratitude to all members on my side, not least

:39:48.:39:51.

the honourable member who has made comments on this bill, their support

:39:52.:39:57.

of this bill. As today is International Workers Memorial Day,

:39:58.:40:00.

I think it says that they poignant reminder as to why we need good and

:40:01.:40:06.

strong trade unions in our society. I think it's also right that we have

:40:07.:40:12.

the trade union movement opposed to many of the measures contained

:40:13.:40:14.

within this bill which is an attack on how they operate on behalf of

:40:15.:40:20.

their members. In terms of the substantive point of the urgent

:40:21.:40:26.

question today, of course the trade union Bill is not yet legislation.

:40:27.:40:31.

It hasn't been connected, so surely -- it hasn't been an active, so

:40:32.:40:34.

surely the fact that the Labour affiliated trade union has decided

:40:35.:40:42.

to donate some of its money, it's Labour affiliated political fund, to

:40:43.:40:46.

a Labour supported campaign is perfectly within the law? Mr

:40:47.:40:55.

Speaker, he is correct. I am extremely grateful to the Minister

:40:56.:40:58.

and all colleagues. We come now to the business question.

:40:59.:41:03.

Points of order have really come after statements, I would prefer...

:41:04.:41:12.

The honourable gentleman has had a good run. He should be patient. Aam

:41:13.:41:18.

sure his point of -- I am sure his point of order can be heard later.

:41:19.:41:23.

Mr Speaker, will the lead ore of the House give us the forthcoming

:41:24.:41:27.

business? So, Mr Speaker, on Monday 2nd May

:41:28.:41:36.

the House is not sitting. It is the Mayday bank hole dasmt Tuesday 3rd

:41:37.:41:42.

we will sit Monday hours, not Tuesday hours, when we will debate a

:41:43.:41:48.

motion to approve a ways and means resolution to the Housing Bill,

:41:49.:41:52.

followed by considerations and amendments of the planning bill. On

:41:53.:41:58.

the 4th May, an Opposition Day Debate. That will be followed by a

:41:59.:42:03.

motion relating to education funding in London. A subject determined by

:42:04.:42:08.

the backbench committee. Thursday 5th, there'll be a debate on

:42:09.:42:16.

contributions of faith sector to local communities. Friday 6th May,

:42:17.:42:20.

the House is not sitting. The provisional business for the

:42:21.:42:23.

following week, commencing Monday 9th May, will include on the Monday

:42:24.:42:27.

a debate on the motion of Government departments outside London and the

:42:28.:42:31.

subject of this debate determined by the Backbench Business Committee,

:42:32.:42:34.

followed by consideration of Lords' amendments. I should like to inform

:42:35.:42:40.

the House that the business in Westminster Hall will be a debate on

:42:41.:42:46.

an e-petition relating to the Government's referendum leaflet. Mr

:42:47.:42:53.

Speaker, Ed Balls, do we actually, Mr Speaker, have a Government at

:42:54.:42:57.

all? They are all over the place. We all thought the referendum was a

:42:58.:43:01.

simple question of EU in or out? This week it got much more

:43:02.:43:06.

complicated as we learnt it is all about the ECHR in or out as well. So

:43:07.:43:11.

the Home Secretary is an in-out, but the hostage-taker is an out-in and

:43:12.:43:16.

the Chancellor is an in-in, along with the Attorney General and the

:43:17.:43:20.

Solicitor-General, but the lead ore the House is an out-out. As for me,

:43:21.:43:32.

I am out for in. Mr Speaker, the Health Secretary tells us he's in

:43:33.:43:41.

his last big job in politics. I hear with an impending reshuffle several

:43:42.:43:45.

ministers have been scouring the job market. I heard rumours of

:43:46.:43:49.

Government postings to overseas territories being planned.

:43:50.:43:56.

Boris is off to cultivate his that polyian complex and for the Health

:43:57.:44:03.

Secretary there is the island known as "inaccessible island" which is

:44:04.:44:07.

probably where the junior doctors want to send him anyway. 33-1 to be

:44:08.:44:19.

the next chancellor of the Exchequer. On this day in 1789

:44:20.:44:28.

Fletcher Citian mutinied on the bounty. He ended up on an island

:44:29.:44:34.

9,000 miles away from here. I can imagine the leader of the House as

:44:35.:44:41.

the governor of Pitcane, dressed in his white socks and sandals, Lording

:44:42.:44:45.

it over the inhabitants, all 56 of them. If he wants I can put in a

:44:46.:44:49.

word with the Prime Minister for him because the Prime Minister is trying

:44:50.:44:54.

to advance my career, I see. Can we, Mr Speaker, have a debate on

:44:55.:44:58.

irresponsible politics? I suspect the leader may never have heard of

:44:59.:45:04.

Avon Jones, but he tweeted, I think we should have a protest where

:45:05.:45:13.

thousands of us have send e-mails with the words bomb, Iran... He may

:45:14.:45:21.

be a crank but he's the Plaid Cymru condedate for Police and Crime

:45:22.:45:25.

Commissioner in North Wales. Can we have a statement from the Home

:45:26.:45:29.

Secretary on the worrying break down of the E border systems on 13th and

:45:30.:45:34.

14th June last year? We need to know, have there been other break

:45:35.:45:40.

downs? Were full index warnings checked? Why did the Home Secretary

:45:41.:45:44.

cover this up for so long? The leader of the House says we should

:45:45.:45:47.

leave the EU so we can control our borders. Surely the lesson is the

:45:48.:45:53.

greatest threat to our border is frankly Tory income I pi tense. The

:45:54.:45:59.

leader said we should -- incompetence. As I walked into

:46:00.:46:03.

Parliament this morning the police were moving two homeless people on

:46:04.:46:07.

who had been sleeping on the doorstep of this parliamentary

:46:08.:46:11.

palace for the last week. Under the Tories, rough sleeping has doubled

:46:12.:46:15.

and funding for those who are sleeping rough has halved. Now, we

:46:16.:46:19.

believe this bill will make the housing crisis in London even worse.

:46:20.:46:25.

Will this Government, at least ensure for heavens sake that for

:46:26.:46:30.

every single social housing unit sold off another is built in its

:46:31.:46:36.

place? Mr Speaker, on 29th November, 2012, the Prime Minister said of the

:46:37.:46:42.

Leveson Inquiry there would be a second part to investigate

:46:43.:46:44.

wrongdoing in the press and the police. I listened to the Home

:46:45.:46:48.

Secretary very carefully yesterday. She made an excellent statement. She

:46:49.:46:52.

said we have always said a decision on lef son will be made when all the

:46:53.:46:57.

investigations have been completed. That is not right, Mr Speaker. Up

:46:58.:47:01.

until now the Government position, the Prime Minister's position has

:47:02.:47:08.

always been that Leveson will start, but should start as soon as the

:47:09.:47:12.

police and prosecuting authorities have finished their work. Surely one

:47:13.:47:17.

of the many lessons we must learn from Hillsborough is when the

:47:18.:47:20.

relationship between the police and the press gets too close it corrupts

:47:21.:47:24.

them both. After all, some have argued that the law of liable means

:47:25.:47:31.

there's no need nor a strong press regulator, but the 96 whose

:47:32.:47:34.

reputation was dragged through the mud by the police, by the Sun and

:47:35.:47:43.

the Spectator, couldn't sue for libel, could they? As passover ends

:47:44.:47:50.

on Saturday, let me say again, as clearly as I can, anti-Semitism is

:47:51.:47:56.

wrong, full stop, end of story. I am sick and tired of people trying to

:47:57.:48:01.

explain it away and yes, I talking to you Ken Livingstone. Of course

:48:02.:48:05.

the illegal settlements are wrong and the Palestinians deserve a

:48:06.:48:10.

better deal. Rocket attacks are wrong and Hamas and Hezbollah must

:48:11.:48:14.

acknowledge the right of Is hail to exist. I was taught -- of Israel to

:48:15.:48:20.

exist. I was taught not to judge people by the colour of their skin,

:48:21.:48:26.

their gender but their character. I also say it is no better when a

:48:27.:48:31.

senior politician looks at the President of the United States and

:48:32.:48:38.

only sees the colour of his skin and his part Kenyan ancestry, or when

:48:39.:48:43.

the Tory candidate for Mayor of London runs a racially-charged

:48:44.:48:46.

campaign against his Labour opponent. It is irresponsible. I off

:48:47.:48:53.

fendss the decency -- it off fends the decency of the British people. I

:48:54.:49:01.

say racism and racial peg disare not welcome in our political parties.

:49:02.:49:08.

I will come back and I share most of the sentiments just raised let me

:49:09.:49:20.

start by wishing you and the Shadow Minister a happyEd Balls day. I

:49:21.:49:26.

never thought they would miss him as much as they would. He didn't talk

:49:27.:49:30.

about all over the place policies. That is what the Labour Party's

:49:31.:49:33.

position is on this. They don't want prisoners to have the vote. They

:49:34.:49:37.

don't want to change our human rights laws. They ought to be smrt

:49:38.:49:41.

enough to know those two position -- smart enough to know those two

:49:42.:49:48.

positions are income pat tibl. He raised the subject of big jobs in

:49:49.:49:54.

Government. We will remind the gentleman opposite, he does not see

:49:55.:49:58.

his job as the last in Government, as the Prime Minister reminded him

:49:59.:50:02.

yesterday. He talked about jobs for the future. I suspect the odds on

:50:03.:50:07.

him becoming the speaker of this House are longer than the odds of me

:50:08.:50:13.

becoming the manager of Liverpool Football Club. On that subject, can

:50:14.:50:18.

I say a couple of things? I served when we were in opposition as shadow

:50:19.:50:23.

member for Liverpool. I have enormous regard for that city, its

:50:24.:50:28.

people and resilience. I would pay a tribute to all of the Hillsborough

:50:29.:50:32.

families and all the people in Liverpool who supported them through

:50:33.:50:36.

their long years of struggle. They, this week, achieved justice. I would

:50:37.:50:41.

like to pay a trib boo to the member for Lee, who I thought was -- a trib

:50:42.:50:48.

boo to the member for Lee, he deserves credit for what he's done.

:50:49.:50:54.

The honourable gentleman talked about LevesonII. We will not move

:50:55.:50:58.

forward until the cases are complete. That is the right thing to

:50:59.:51:01.

do. We will continue to stick to that position.

:51:02.:51:06.

He made the point about Mr Jones - yes I know who he is. The views he

:51:07.:51:11.

expressed are objectionable. It is my hope in that part of North Wales

:51:12.:51:16.

he is not elected as police and crimes commissioner. On the borders

:51:17.:51:22.

issue I would remind him when Labour were in power the e-Borders

:51:23.:51:26.

programme was supported to arrive and be put into effect. It didn't

:51:27.:51:29.

happen because they failed to deliver the programme. When they

:51:30.:51:33.

talk to us about what we have done in Government, they were in power

:51:34.:51:38.

for 13 years. They started by dismantling our exit check borders

:51:39.:51:42.

and they failed to put in place an alternative. Mr Speaker, he talked

:51:43.:51:51.

about homelessness. Let me remind him of his party's record. They

:51:52.:51:56.

built fewer council Houses than we did in office. Let me talk about

:51:57.:52:03.

anti-Semitism. He has been a voice of reason and common sense. He

:52:04.:52:07.

deserves credit for that. I wish all his colleagues saw things the same

:52:08.:52:14.

way. He is right to talk about Ken Livingstone. His matters suggest

:52:15.:52:20.

they were not anti-accept mettic, they were disgraceful. I do not

:52:21.:52:24.

understand as many Labour MPs do not understand how Ken Livingstone is

:52:25.:52:26.

still today a member of the Labour Party. He should be suspended from

:52:27.:52:29.

the Labour Party for the things that he said.

:52:30.:52:35.

But I also think there's some any evety on those benches, a member

:52:36.:52:41.

said on the Today Programme she regarded the events as trial via

:52:42.:52:46.

Twitter. She clearly does not fully

:52:47.:52:49.

understand the gravity of the situation. Mr Speaker, despite the

:52:50.:52:54.

wise words of the shadow leader, and I disagree what he said about my

:52:55.:53:00.

honourable friend for Uxbridge, he nonetheless makes a powerful point.

:53:01.:53:04.

He is a beacon of sense in this party. Where is the sense on the

:53:05.:53:09.

rest of his benches of what is a deeply, deeply serious matter?

:53:10.:53:15.

A number of my constituents have been the victims of who appears to

:53:16.:53:22.

be a financial scam. The police have referred them to action fraud. The

:53:23.:53:26.

contact they have had with Action Fraud is minimal. And they are very

:53:27.:53:30.

dissatisfied. Could the leader arrange for a debate on the work of

:53:31.:53:35.

Action Fraud? Well, Mr Speaker, my honourable

:53:36.:53:39.

friend makes an important point. We are aware across our society of a

:53:40.:53:43.

range of different scams. Often it is vulnerable people in our society

:53:44.:53:47.

who are the victims. I pay tribute to him for raiding this issue. I

:53:48.:53:51.

would say the Secretary of State and the business department will be here

:53:52.:53:54.

next week. I hope he will take advantage to make sure it is on his

:53:55.:53:58.

radar as well. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Can

:53:59.:54:02.

I thank you for the business for next week. Forget aboutEd Balls --

:54:03.:54:09.

about Ed Balls, but we remember all those killed in the workplace.

:54:10.:54:13.

Remember the dead and fight for the living has been considered. The

:54:14.:54:17.

trade union bill, that is very apt words for the business we are

:54:18.:54:21.

considering. Will the Government just now not do it? Will it now do

:54:22.:54:27.

the right thing when it comes to accepting uncompanied child refugees

:54:28.:54:37.

in number of camps. Even the Daily Mail are calling for the Government

:54:38.:54:40.

to accept these children. For the Daily Mail to say this, surely the

:54:41.:54:45.

time has come for this, even this, the most callous of Governments to

:54:46.:54:48.

reconsider its position and do the right thing? It has its chance, it

:54:49.:54:52.

looks like on May 9th the amendment will come back to this House again.

:54:53.:54:56.

Will the Government look at this positively and for the sake of this

:54:57.:55:00.

country, for all the people, even the right-wing press, will it do the

:55:01.:55:03.

right thing for these children? When I was growing up in Scotland, and we

:55:04.:55:11.

sometimes got an announcement which would preview the programmes, it was

:55:12.:55:15.

not for viewers in Scotland. I was sort of thing maybe we could

:55:16.:55:20.

resurrect this and apply it to Prime Minister's Questions. For most of

:55:21.:55:25.

the last two sessions it has been about English schools, not for

:55:26.:55:29.

viewers in Scotland or most other parts of the UK. The leader of the

:55:30.:55:33.

opposition can raise whateverish shoo shoe he wants. It is up to him

:55:34.:55:40.

-- whatever issue he wants. The time has testimony coreview Prime

:55:41.:55:44.

Minister's Questions to make it -- the time has come for a review of

:55:45.:55:48.

Prime Minister's Questions. Maybe the Leader of the House could

:55:49.:55:52.

support that call, Mr Speaker. Can we have a debate on the Government's

:55:53.:55:57.

commitments on the spending on the Clyde shipyards? I remember only too

:55:58.:56:01.

well during the independence referendum and some of the things

:56:02.:56:05.

which were said and I remember a leaflet that went around, which was

:56:06.:56:09.

designed by the Labour and the Tory alliance and a bit together, it was

:56:10.:56:14.

separation kills shipyards. It is what they said. It was a neat

:56:15.:56:19.

slogan. It was all with the union and doom and gloom for secured

:56:20.:56:23.

independence. We know that for the nonsense it is. It is not

:56:24.:56:27.

independence that is killing shipyards, it is the union who is

:56:28.:56:33.

killing it slowly and painfully by administering these yards and

:56:34.:56:38.

delaying the start of works T Scottish people feel duped. Can we

:56:39.:56:42.

have a debate where the Government can explain what is going and an and

:56:43.:56:47.

ensure we get this work started on time. Lastly, I am sure the House,

:56:48.:56:52.

as leader of the House, has full access to the Prime Minister's

:56:53.:56:57.

diary. Can he explain why there's no visit to Scotland from the Prime

:56:58.:57:00.

Minister in advance of a Scottish election? It is probably the last

:57:01.:57:05.

person that Ruth David son would like to see if she has division and

:57:06.:57:11.

beating Labour into third place in Scotland. We would love to see him.

:57:12.:57:16.

Every time he appears it is an extra 2% for the Scottish National Party.

:57:17.:57:21.

Can he encourage the Prime Minister, even his good self to come to

:57:22.:57:25.

Scotland. The more Tories in Scotland the better for the Scottish

:57:26.:57:28.

National Party. Mr Speaker, as the Honourable

:57:29.:57:34.

Speaker knows I have great regard for him as a parliamentary colleague

:57:35.:57:39.

but I do think sometimes his rhetoric lets him down. The idea

:57:40.:57:43.

when he describes this as the most callous of Government, we are

:57:44.:57:46.

providing the second largest amount of aid to all the refugee camps

:57:47.:57:52.

around Syria, doing as much as any nation in the world by the United

:57:53.:57:55.

States to try to help the people affected. We are taking 20,000

:57:56.:57:59.

people not from other European countries but from the refugee camps

:58:00.:58:03.

where they are the most vulnerable. And when he talks about

:58:04.:58:06.

unaccompanied children, we are talking unaccompanied children not

:58:07.:58:10.

from other EU countries where they are safe, but from the camps where

:58:11.:58:14.

they are safe. Surely that is the sensible, wise on the thoughtful and

:58:15.:58:18.

considerate thing to do? It is not saying no, we won't assist. It is

:58:19.:58:23.

providing assistance to those not able to make it to Europe and that

:58:24.:58:27.

is a policy with resolutely stand-by. He talks about by

:58:28.:58:30.

ministers questions and the discussion about education. I would

:58:31.:58:35.

simply remind him that is the consequence of devolution. This is a

:58:36.:58:38.

United Kingdom Parliament but it is true that in his constituency,

:58:39.:58:42.

education matters are not a matter for him but for the Scottish

:58:43.:58:46.

parliament. That is something we have debated over time, but the

:58:47.:58:50.

reality is that it is a consequence of the Doully volution championship

:58:51.:58:55.

-- devolution that he has championed over time. He talks about shipping.

:58:56.:59:04.

He wants a debate and a chance to vote, he will soon have a chance to

:59:05.:59:09.

vote on removing from Scotland one of the biggest defence facilities in

:59:10.:59:15.

the United Kingdom, very moving jobs, and removing part of the

:59:16.:59:22.

nation's defences and when he can explain his thought on that with

:59:23.:59:27.

regards to Scotland, I will take him seriously. He talks about

:59:28.:59:31.

conservatives in Scotland and I have been to Scotland since the start of

:59:32.:59:35.

the election campaign and I am delighted to see the Conservatives

:59:36.:59:38.

moving up in the polls, though I am sure there is no connection between

:59:39.:59:41.

the two, and all of us on the side of the House believes we have the

:59:42.:59:46.

best leader in Scotland and we believe she will play a crucial part

:59:47.:59:49.

in its affairs over the coming years as people come to realise that the

:59:50.:59:53.

SNP Government in Edinburgh may make a lot of noise, but it's actually

:59:54.:00:00.

incapable of getting the job done. On the 12th of May, the Prime

:00:01.:00:04.

Minister is hosting an anti-corruption Summit in London

:00:05.:00:08.

which has never happened before and I think it will have far reaching

:00:09.:00:13.

impact. Can we have a debate conferred -- concerning the British

:00:14.:00:16.

Overseas Territories and Crown dependencies on a process for

:00:17.:00:24.

benefit information. This is a subject to be debated in Westminster

:00:25.:00:27.

Hall shortly but by honourable friend is absolutely right about the

:00:28.:00:30.

role this Government has played in the last six years, bursting

:00:31.:00:34.

coalition and then on our own. We have delivered -- inevitable change

:00:35.:00:39.

than any previous Government and we should be proud of that. I thank the

:00:40.:00:47.

leader for the announcement of the business and with this afternoon's

:00:48.:00:51.

business which is nominated by the backbench business committed and the

:00:52.:00:58.

half day and day next week that he has announced, we are inching ever

:00:59.:01:03.

closer to the 27 days which the backbench business committee are

:01:04.:01:07.

entitled to within the parliamentary session and I do thank the Leader of

:01:08.:01:12.

the House for that. As has been mentioned, today is Workers Memorial

:01:13.:01:16.

Day and it is a day that is commemorated by the TUC and trades

:01:17.:01:22.

councils all around the country and in my own constituency there will be

:01:23.:01:28.

a memorial service at noon today. We say, remember the date -- the dead,

:01:29.:01:35.

remember the living. It is for those who die within their workplace. I

:01:36.:01:40.

wonder if the leader would consider recognising Workers Memorial Day in

:01:41.:01:46.

the future Parliamentary calendar? Well, Mr Speaker, can I say first of

:01:47.:01:50.

all on the subject of Workers Memorial Day that this country is a

:01:51.:01:53.

better place than it was in the past? He is right, representing an

:01:54.:01:59.

area where there have been great industrial accidents in the past, to

:02:00.:02:04.

recognise the progress made but also to recognise those who died before

:02:05.:02:08.

that progress was made. None of us would want to go back to those days

:02:09.:02:12.

and even though we often debate the complexity of health and safety, I

:02:13.:02:16.

put on record that in my view it is in no way in the interest of anyone

:02:17.:02:22.

in this country to have an environment where people are at risk

:02:23.:02:25.

in the workplace. When industrial accidents happen, as tragically

:02:26.:02:30.

happened at Didcot power station recently, we all regret it and I pay

:02:31.:02:34.

tribute to him and all sides of the House for the work they do to mark

:02:35.:02:38.

this occasion and that has never go back to a time when these things

:02:39.:02:45.

were commonplace in our country. With regards to the Parliamentary

:02:46.:02:50.

character, I am sure he will find an opportunity to recognise this

:02:51.:02:54.

important day but also to ensure that in coming years, the same

:02:55.:02:58.

opportunity is there for members of the House. -- the Parliamentary

:02:59.:03:05.

calendar. Macy, a nine-year-old girl in my constituency is not well at

:03:06.:03:09.

the moment. I think she was taken into hospital again last night. To

:03:10.:03:14.

make her completely better, she's going to have to go to the United

:03:15.:03:18.

States and the NHS are providing for that. But there was a problem

:03:19.:03:21.

because she couldn't get her passport. She doesn't have a

:03:22.:03:24.

passport and her mother doesn't have a passport and it would have taken

:03:25.:03:28.

up to six weeks for this to have occurred. Thanks to the intervention

:03:29.:03:34.

by my friend, the honourable member for Northampton North, and a

:03:35.:03:40.

personal intervention of the Home Secretary, the passports are now

:03:41.:03:44.

going to be sorted out tomorrow. Macy asked if I could thank the

:03:45.:03:51.

House for that and in particular the Home Secretary. So perhaps we could

:03:52.:03:55.

have a general debate sometime in the future about how the Government

:03:56.:03:58.

can, at times, work together for common sense? Mr Speaker, I think my

:03:59.:04:04.

honourable friend's words say at all. We wish her all the very best

:04:05.:04:10.

for her treatment and her recovery. It is nice to see. Very often the

:04:11.:04:14.

image of this place is one of political debate and confrontation,

:04:15.:04:18.

but actually behind the scenes there are decent people on all sides of

:04:19.:04:23.

this House, of whom he is one, working under half of their

:04:24.:04:25.

constituents, trying to solve problems like this one where all of

:04:26.:04:28.

us would want the right thing to be done. Mr Speaker, the Leader of the

:04:29.:04:34.

House will know that Calvin Thomas is retiring today after 26 years

:04:35.:04:38.

great service to the House, including six teen years as a

:04:39.:04:41.

doorkeeper and in the special gallery since 2009. I know Calvin

:04:42.:04:45.

well personally because we have sometimes been confused with each

:04:46.:04:49.

other due to our similar if different names. He has been

:04:50.:04:55.

consistently charming in carrying out his duties as a valued member of

:04:56.:05:02.

our staff, so may I raise the banks of all the members of the staff and

:05:03.:05:05.

wish him a happy retirement on our behalf? The honourable gentleman has

:05:06.:05:10.

had said it eloquently on behalf of all of us and I would echo his

:05:11.:05:15.

words, not only to which Calvin a very happy retirement but also to

:05:16.:05:18.

express thanks to our doorkeepers who are great servants to this

:05:19.:05:22.

House, treating us all with great courtesy and good humour, performing

:05:23.:05:26.

valuable work for us and we value what they do enormously. As my right

:05:27.:05:33.

honourable friend may know, the UK sepsis trust has been working for

:05:34.:05:37.

some time with the Secretary of State for Health to try to establish

:05:38.:05:43.

a public awareness campaign. This. Sepsis currently claims around

:05:44.:05:49.

44,000 lives in the UK a year and the symptoms of the disease are

:05:50.:05:52.

still not well recognised. Do you think we could have a debate on what

:05:53.:05:59.

could be done to introduce a sepsis specific awareness campaign for both

:06:00.:06:01.

children and adults because I believe it would save the lives of

:06:02.:06:06.

thousands of people every year? Mr Speaker, can I start by

:06:07.:06:11.

congratulating my honourable friend on the work she is doing in this

:06:12.:06:14.

important area and say I am aware that the Secretary of State is

:06:15.:06:17.

taking this issue enormously seriously. He has had meetings about

:06:18.:06:22.

the kind of work she is talking about and I am sure he will wish to

:06:23.:06:26.

take that forward. It is of course a very serious matter and it is

:06:27.:06:31.

beholden upon us, Mr Speaker, as representatives of our constituents

:06:32.:06:35.

as well as members of the Government to deal with challenges like that. I

:06:36.:06:44.

would ask the Leader of the House to condemn the Labour PCC candidate in

:06:45.:06:47.

North Wales for the appallingly callous Twitter comments which can

:06:48.:06:50.

only be interrupted by right thinking candidates as marking

:06:51.:06:57.

Hillsborough families. I tend to this. We'll be Leader of the House

:06:58.:07:07.

presently Business Secretary to make a statement to ensure Port Talbot

:07:08.:07:13.

workers that this Government priorities -- prioritises their

:07:14.:07:19.

future indeed as well is worth? All future decisions will be made on

:07:20.:07:25.

evidence -based research? Mr Speaker, I can ensure the honourable

:07:26.:07:29.

lady that this is a matter the Government takes enormously

:07:30.:07:31.

seriously. The Secretary of State for business will be here next week

:07:32.:07:34.

and I would say to her this is something the Government has taken

:07:35.:07:37.

interest in from the Prime Minister downwards. He has taken a personal

:07:38.:07:41.

interest and none of us want to see Paul Tolbert disappear. We all want

:07:42.:07:44.

to make steel and we will all make sure that it continues. Can we find

:07:45.:07:56.

time for a debate on the conduct of the EU referendum campaign so far?

:07:57.:08:00.

Can this thing in the south-west I have filed local residents

:08:01.:08:05.

absolutely angered by the intervention of the outgoing

:08:06.:08:10.

president and the intervention of national affairs and the ?9 million

:08:11.:08:18.

which has been spent on the leaflet and think the booklet making

:08:19.:08:21.

predictions for 2030 is crazy, when just like weather forecasters they

:08:22.:08:25.

cannot get their projections right for the next day? My honourable

:08:26.:08:35.

friend is a vigorous campaigner on these issues and he will be able to

:08:36.:08:39.

take part in a debate on the 9th of May. The interesting thing is, will

:08:40.:08:48.

be factors he has described have an impact on the poll he is describing?

:08:49.:08:56.

We have heard from the Shadow Leader of the House this morning that a

:08:57.:08:58.

British Airways computer system despite -- designed to stop the

:08:59.:09:03.

movement of terrorists crashed for 48 hours last year. I have also

:09:04.:09:09.

learned that an outsourcing programme at BA threatens 800

:09:10.:09:12.

skilled workers, skilled workers who are working to protect our country.

:09:13.:09:18.

May we therefore have a debate to discuss the role of outsourcing in

:09:19.:09:21.

this event and to stop BA from threatening our national security to

:09:22.:09:26.

save money? The Government takes our national security enormously

:09:27.:09:30.

importantly and of course, while the failure she talks about to Place,

:09:31.:09:34.

border control checks do and will always remain in place. Passports

:09:35.:09:37.

are checked when people arrive in this country and the new border

:09:38.:09:41.

system is mostly about trying to check people when they leave the

:09:42.:09:45.

country. It is something we hoped would happen many years ago but it

:09:46.:09:54.

never came to pass. Can we have a debate in Government time on the

:09:55.:09:59.

implications for the United Kingdom of the five presidents report on

:10:00.:10:02.

economic monetary union, because as my right honourable friend will be

:10:03.:10:06.

aware, under the guise of single market legislation, the proposals

:10:07.:10:10.

are to take Intel can signal, company law and is property rights,

:10:11.:10:19.

so don't we have a duty to talk about the consequences of remaining

:10:20.:10:23.

in the European Union? The five Presidents report is a major

:10:24.:10:28.

document which sets out the visions of the institution for the next ten

:10:29.:10:33.

years and it has and will provoke a lively debate about the future of

:10:34.:10:37.

this country and the European Union as a whole. If my honourable friend

:10:38.:10:40.

feels it is a matter that should be debated in this House, I would

:10:41.:10:46.

suggest, and I suspect they would be time available, and I would suggest

:10:47.:10:51.

a debate on the subject would attract widespread participation.

:10:52.:10:58.

Last week during prime ministers questions I raised a very serious

:10:59.:11:01.

issue of food banks increasing in the last year alone of 20% and this

:11:02.:11:07.

is precisely due to benefit delays and even more criminally benefit

:11:08.:11:14.

sanctions. One person had been sanctioned for three whole years.

:11:15.:11:17.

The reply I got from the Leader of the House was, this could only

:11:18.:11:21.

happen if three reasonable job offers had been turned down so I

:11:22.:11:25.

want to return to this issue to answer a question. Paul was on ?36 a

:11:26.:11:31.

week. He was on three sanctions you to not filling out his job log but

:11:32.:11:36.

correctly. He turned up ten minutes late due to problems getting a bus

:11:37.:11:41.

and thirdly, he was waiting for an hour at the Jobcentre which he had

:11:42.:11:45.

two expresses dissatisfaction for. Living on ?36 a week for three whole

:11:46.:11:49.

years, I would like them to consider as a matter of urgency a debate on

:11:50.:11:54.

the sanctions on an increasing number of people are having to

:11:55.:11:57.

depend on the Sanctuary -- the charity of others.

:11:58.:12:03.

I suggest the honourable gentleman looks at the circumstances of the

:12:04.:12:09.

case closely because I produced the sanction and it was a judge is for

:12:10.:12:14.

people who are on three separate occasions turned only reasonable job

:12:15.:12:17.

offer, people who refused to work, and it remains my view that people

:12:18.:12:20.

who refuse to work and refuse to work again and again should not be

:12:21.:12:22.

entitled to carry on receiving support from the benefit system.

:12:23.:12:27.

Last week in the excellent news, really welcome news that my

:12:28.:12:33.

honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and safeguard

:12:34.:12:35.

the qualifications and teaching of community language. Gujarati,

:12:36.:12:43.

Bengali, who do, Japanese, Arabic, modern Greek, modern Hebrew,

:12:44.:12:51.

Portuguese and Turkish. That means we have safeguarded the

:12:52.:12:53.

qualifications and the teachings of these vital languages in the modern

:12:54.:12:58.

world so that everyone can communicate. Unfortunately, the

:12:59.:13:03.

Secretary of State was not able at Questions this week to regale the

:13:04.:13:06.

good news and I don't think something like this should be left

:13:07.:13:09.

to wither on the vine so surely we should have a statement on this

:13:10.:13:13.

position so that we can actually make sure that everyone understands

:13:14.:13:19.

that from 2018, these languages are safeguarded our education system. Of

:13:20.:13:22.

course this is enormously important and why we have the benefit of this

:13:23.:13:26.

country and the news we had to an international language and English,

:13:27.:13:30.

it is right and proper that as a cosmopolitan society we champion

:13:31.:13:35.

languages that not only preserve the communities that live here but also

:13:36.:13:38.

open enormous opportunities for Britain around the world saw my

:13:39.:13:41.

honourable friend makes an important point and I have no doubt she will

:13:42.:13:44.

look into the different channels available to him to make sure these

:13:45.:13:49.

matters are debated a lot more in this House. Last week I spoke in the

:13:50.:13:58.

introduction of the national living wage debate to highlight the

:13:59.:14:01.

injustice of the decision to deny the living wage to under 25 is. A

:14:02.:14:06.

young person could start work at 18 and be in a role for seven years

:14:07.:14:12.

before being paid the same as their older and potentially less

:14:13.:14:14.

experienced colleagues. Can we give members the time to write this wrong

:14:15.:14:20.

and extend a living wage to people under 25? It was the policy of this

:14:21.:14:27.

Government and previous Government to differentiate between older and

:14:28.:14:31.

younger workers precisely because when a young worker enters the

:14:32.:14:35.

workplace, the employer is making an investment decision as well as a

:14:36.:14:39.

recruitment decision. The employer takes responsibility for training

:14:40.:14:49.

and developing that worker. Many young people who start on the

:14:50.:14:52.

national living which will live on through success either in their own

:14:53.:14:56.

workplace or moving to another job to move up the pace skill but I

:14:57.:14:59.

think it is important to do everything we can to incentivise

:15:00.:15:07.

employers to take on young people. As we're talking about the dodgy

:15:08.:15:13.

behaviour of PCC candidates, a number of folks standing for

:15:14.:15:19.

election next week are previous coppers who are trading on the

:15:20.:15:22.

record as police officers. Does he agree with me that they should bring

:15:23.:15:26.

forward proposals to make sure that those standing to be PCC makes their

:15:27.:15:30.

police service records available for scrutiny? My honourable friend makes

:15:31.:15:36.

an important point, I am aware of allegations around the Labour PCC

:15:37.:15:41.

candidate in Humberside. It is absolutely the case that if the

:15:42.:15:45.

story alleged is true, he is unfit for public office and it is a matter

:15:46.:15:49.

of public interest that the two should be known before election day.

:15:50.:15:55.

Back in 1847 when Lord John Russell was Prime Minister, our taxi

:15:56.:16:02.

licensing laws were developed. We now have a problem in the North West

:16:03.:16:06.

of England where one particular local authority is handing out

:16:07.:16:11.

Hackney taxi licences like sweeties. The problem we've got is that once

:16:12.:16:15.

you have a hackney license, you can operate as a private hire a anywhere

:16:16.:16:21.

in the country so there are no taxis on this local authority operating as

:16:22.:16:25.

far afield as Bristol without appropriate checks and balances so

:16:26.:16:29.

can we have an urgent debate on how we bring up to date our taxi

:16:30.:16:34.

licensing regime? The honourable gentleman makes a good point and I

:16:35.:16:39.

was not aware of the situation. I will make sure that as John to the

:16:40.:16:43.

attention of the Secretary of State who was also unaware I'm sure I will

:16:44.:16:51.

look at the matter seriously. The Secretary of State for communities

:16:52.:16:53.

and local Government has threatened to introduce legislation which would

:16:54.:16:56.

make it illegal for those in my constituency to charge on Government

:16:57.:17:02.

and organise sporting event which attracts the few hundred people to a

:17:03.:17:10.

small part every weekend. I think it is a tad hypocritical. Could I ask

:17:11.:17:13.

my honourable friend if we can have a debate on the power of local

:17:14.:17:18.

councils the freedom to charge organisers who run sporting events

:17:19.:17:22.

in their parks? I am not aware of the proposal my honourable friend

:17:23.:17:26.

refers to it but I understand his concern and I can see why he would

:17:27.:17:30.

raise this as a matter of importance in the House today. What I would say

:17:31.:17:35.

to him is that I will draw that to the Secretary of State. Clearly we

:17:36.:17:38.

want to encourage local authorities to support and develop and underpin

:17:39.:17:43.

events like this that bring communities together. He makes an

:17:44.:17:45.

important point about his own constituency. I'll make sure we get

:17:46.:17:51.

the proper response for you. This week seen a dispute between the

:17:52.:17:57.

other place in this chamber and instead of leading to accompanied

:17:58.:18:03.

refugee children being allowed in, it will lead to more cronies in the

:18:04.:18:06.

House of Lords. The leader said there is no appetite for proper

:18:07.:18:10.

reform. I would like to ask him to make a statement, asking when is the

:18:11.:18:13.

public appetite for even more cronies and donors in the 800 that

:18:14.:18:18.

exist at present and where does the manifesto commitment to continue

:18:19.:18:23.

stuffing that other place? I do think the honourable gentleman and

:18:24.:18:25.

his colleagues opposite insult many of the very deserving and very

:18:26.:18:31.

effective people operating the other place, people who represent the

:18:32.:18:37.

disability lobby who have serious disabilities themselves, people who

:18:38.:18:39.

represent the arts world who have long track record in the arts,

:18:40.:18:45.

people from the business world. I think the expertise and the other

:18:46.:18:49.

place brings something significant to our parliamentary system even

:18:50.:18:52.

though sometimes the two houses disagree over issues are weak -- as

:18:53.:19:01.

we are currently. Given the delays my constituents have faced in reform

:19:02.:19:09.

payments, could we have a debate on farmers whose land crosses the

:19:10.:19:13.

English and Welsh borders and Scottish and English borderers who

:19:14.:19:15.

always appear to be at the back of the queue? This of course remains an

:19:16.:19:23.

issue. I have spoken to the department about this and it is true

:19:24.:19:28.

across the country that the vast majority of payments have now been

:19:29.:19:32.

made but I hear the point my honourable friend makes an owl make

:19:33.:19:34.

sure the Secretary of State is aware of his concerns and she will be here

:19:35.:19:37.

next week and will be able to respond to him fully. The Leader of

:19:38.:19:44.

the House will be aware of the emerging crisis at the yards on the

:19:45.:19:50.

Clyde tasked with building the type 26 frigate. A late start of the

:19:51.:19:53.

project and uncertainty over the future workflow threatens hundreds

:19:54.:19:59.

of jobs at Govan in Scotstoun. Can we therefore have a debate on

:20:00.:20:02.

Government time to allow members of this House to discuss in depth the

:20:03.:20:06.

future of the Klein ship building industry -- Clyde, and give a voice

:20:07.:20:13.

to those workers and should of the future? The reason the Clyde

:20:14.:20:18.

shipbuilding industry has a strong future is twofold, firstly because

:20:19.:20:22.

they remain part of the United Kingdom and therefore benefit from

:20:23.:20:25.

the United Kingdom's defence spending and the second is because

:20:26.:20:28.

this Government has committed to the 2% spending level is part of our

:20:29.:20:32.

commitment to Nato. If those things were not happening, of course the

:20:33.:20:36.

future would be much more uncertain but I'm convinced that the Clyde

:20:37.:20:40.

shipyards have a strong future. They are an essential part of and we need

:20:41.:20:45.

to make sure they continue to flourish. I have a statement about

:20:46.:20:52.

the treatment of Idaho is about politicians, petitions that

:20:53.:20:54.

attracted large number of signatures. As the leader knows,

:20:55.:20:57.

there's going to be a debate on the 9th of May about the petition to

:20:58.:21:01.

stop the Government spending sums of public money on pro Remain EU

:21:02.:21:14.

referendum. 2072 have so far signed as a few moments ago but that debate

:21:15.:21:20.

will be held in Westminster hall were no vote can be held. Should it

:21:21.:21:25.

not be a possibility for the backbench business committee to hold

:21:26.:21:32.

such debates in the main chamber because otherwise petitioners will

:21:33.:21:35.

be disappointed to find that although their concerns get debated,

:21:36.:21:42.

the House is unable to vote on them? My honourable friend makes an

:21:43.:21:46.

important point and not only on the subject, there are others, I do

:21:47.:21:48.

think I would encourage discourse between the two honourable members

:21:49.:21:54.

who cheer the business and backbench committees to see how well it

:21:55.:22:00.

petition reaches a certain level of public interest that the debate can

:22:01.:22:03.

be brought to the front of the House. Perhaps I can see from the

:22:04.:22:08.

chair, I think that would be a very good thing. I wouldn't dream of

:22:09.:22:11.

taking sides on the issues but in terms of the link dream Parliament

:22:12.:22:17.

and the people, I think it is very important that it be not just

:22:18.:22:22.

tangible but meaningful and a little scope for progress there so I very

:22:23.:22:26.

much appreciate what the Leader of the House has said. On that topic of

:22:27.:22:33.

democracy and having votes, the House divided last week on a motion

:22:34.:22:38.

to ask the UK Government to bring to the UN security council the issue of

:22:39.:22:42.

genocide against Christians, Yazidis and other people. The House 4278

:22:43.:22:51.

votes to zero. What the House do to bring the Government to account to

:22:52.:22:53.

make sure that it respects the democracy of this place and do what

:22:54.:22:57.

it has been asked to do and make sure that we take crimes against the

:22:58.:23:02.

people in these countries to the UN Security Council as major action is

:23:03.:23:08.

taken? The Government's position as one of shock, horror and

:23:09.:23:11.

condemnation about what has taken place, that is an unreserved

:23:12.:23:16.

statement, and I know that my honourable friend the Foreign

:23:17.:23:18.

Secretary is taking careful note of the view of the House as expressed

:23:19.:23:22.

in the debate that the honourable gentleman refers to. I recently had

:23:23.:23:28.

cause to write to the president of the European Commission asking him

:23:29.:23:31.

to clarify the role his commission is playing in her EU referendum. I

:23:32.:23:36.

have had no answer but given the fact that the commission spent ?560

:23:37.:23:41.

million directly promoting itself in 2014, that the commission interfered

:23:42.:23:47.

in the Irish referendum in 2009, could we have a statement from the

:23:48.:23:53.

Government as to whether it believes EU interviewers in this referendum

:23:54.:23:56.

as well, not? As I understand, it has no powers to prevent the EU

:23:57.:24:02.

being an unwelcome active participant in our democratic

:24:03.:24:07.

process. I can confirm that that is the case. However, I'm sure there

:24:08.:24:10.

will be different opinions in this House as to whether such an

:24:11.:24:13.

intervention would be helpful or unhelpful to either side of the

:24:14.:24:20.

argument. The minister who spoke from that dispatch box less than a

:24:21.:24:26.

year ago is now employed by industry in China, presumably using his

:24:27.:24:33.

insider knowledge with firms that bring competition with British

:24:34.:24:40.

industries. 70% of former civil servants on income tax are now

:24:41.:24:43.

working in the retirement tax avoidance industry, there should be

:24:44.:24:55.

a fierce, Rottweiler watchdog but there is nothing but a poodle

:24:56.:25:04.

without teeth or clause, Bart -- bark or bite and it is useless. Tell

:25:05.:25:14.

us what you really think! I'm not sure if my memory is correct but if

:25:15.:25:18.

I remember rightly, the committee to which she referred was set up by the

:25:19.:25:22.

party of which she is a part and I would remind him that it was a

:25:23.:25:26.

senior member of his own party who describe themselves after leaving

:25:27.:25:29.

office and well in pursuit of commercial opportunities as a taxi

:25:30.:25:42.

for hire. I visited the rugby junket is project in my constituency under

:25:43.:25:45.

the inspirational dealership of Annette Callier for amazing young

:25:46.:25:50.

people who play a part in the care of family members so I was concerned

:25:51.:25:54.

to hear that Warwickshire Young carers Project will lose funding

:25:55.:25:59.

that affects those under 18 and it will have an effect in rugby. Can I

:26:00.:26:04.

ask for a debate in the importance of properly supporting these young

:26:05.:26:08.

people? My friend makes an important point. One of the most invisible

:26:09.:26:13.

drips of yours are our young carers. None of us understand it until we

:26:14.:26:19.

come across it, how a child can be a full-time carer for a parent. I have

:26:20.:26:23.

a young carers in my constituency which does enormously valuable work.

:26:24.:26:28.

His grip plays an important role clearly and I'm sure he will do

:26:29.:26:32.

everything he can to make sure its future is guaranteed because it is

:26:33.:26:34.

important to the communities represents.

:26:35.:26:39.

I'm becoming increasingly concerned about the discriminatory language

:26:40.:26:45.

that has been used in the chamber recently the Education Secretary

:26:46.:26:50.

called the opposition death, using deafness as a pejorative term, which

:26:51.:26:55.

I think is unacceptable. The Prime Minister used the term pond see,

:26:56.:26:58.

which many people think is homophobic. I wonder if we could

:26:59.:27:02.

have a statement about the language that we use in this chamber. Mr

:27:03.:27:10.

Speaker, I think people here in words what they want to hear but the

:27:11.:27:13.

one thing I would say is that nobody could accuse the pie Minister of

:27:14.:27:19.

homophobia. The man who bought this House and saw through same-sex

:27:20.:27:22.

marriage is not somebody who could ever be described as homophobic. We

:27:23.:27:28.

know that there has been a very thorough committee meeting on the UK

:27:29.:27:34.

steel industry but will be Leader of the House organised a statement to

:27:35.:27:38.

be put out next week so that all members are able to put questions to

:27:39.:27:41.

ministers on behalf of our steel towns, because it is very important

:27:42.:27:48.

that both we and our constituents know exactly what is happening and

:27:49.:27:51.

what process -- progress is being made to secure the industry? All of

:27:52.:28:00.

those who represent steel towns have done a great job in recent weeks to

:28:01.:28:04.

remind us of the importance of that industry and I commend them for

:28:05.:28:09.

that. I can lay on just such an opportunity because next week is the

:28:10.:28:12.

Business Secretary them skills questions and he will be -- he will

:28:13.:28:17.

be able to put it to the Secretary of State then. Heart of the press

:28:18.:28:23.

this morning is early day motion 1432 which backs up the bill I

:28:24.:28:27.

produced on Tuesday to abolish hereditary peers rights to vote and

:28:28.:28:32.

speak in the House of Lords. Given that there are now the same number

:28:33.:28:35.

of members on the front bench of the Government as they were voting in

:28:36.:28:38.

the election of hereditary peers last week, is there not -- is it not

:28:39.:28:45.

time we had a debate to and this farcical process? The party opposite

:28:46.:28:52.

was endowment for 13 years but didn't address the issue they are

:28:53.:28:58.

calling for change on. We all admit that there is something curiously

:28:59.:29:00.

quaint about the Liberal Democrat electorate of three and one has to

:29:01.:29:06.

cut them a bit of slack because there are so few of them these days,

:29:07.:29:10.

but my view is that there are pressing issues facing this country

:29:11.:29:15.

and probably dealing with three people is not top of them. Can I ask

:29:16.:29:22.

the Leader of the House if we can have a debate on the London licensed

:29:23.:29:27.

taxi trade? My black cab drivers in my constituency offer a lots more to

:29:28.:29:30.

London and their community than Uber does. Mr Speaker, my honourable

:29:31.:29:39.

friend makes an important point and in the free market, London taxi

:29:40.:29:42.

drivers do face challenges, but I believe they are the best in the

:29:43.:29:45.

world. I believe they bring something of immense value to our

:29:46.:29:49.

city and I don't believe anything that any of us in politics, either

:29:50.:29:53.

at this level or at the London level, would wish to jeopardise

:29:54.:29:59.

that. Because of statements made in the back page business debate a

:30:00.:30:04.

couple of weeks ago in this House, I presume the Government will see for

:30:05.:30:10.

security review the Chilcott report last week. Can the Leader of the

:30:11.:30:15.

House are daters when we can expect a debate in the House? I am aware

:30:16.:30:19.

that it is now going through what I hope are the final processes before

:30:20.:30:23.

publication and I have said to this House before there is not a person

:30:24.:30:26.

on our side of the House who would not wish to see that report out and

:30:27.:30:29.

published. We were not in power at the time so the issues in their do

:30:30.:30:34.

not affect us. We want to see the truth out there and we want to learn

:30:35.:30:36.

lessons about the Chilcott process in the event of this other having to

:30:37.:30:46.

happen again. Could we have a debate on making it easier for metropolitan

:30:47.:30:53.

councils to switch to all-out elections or elections by halves,

:30:54.:30:57.

said that councils like Dudley can cut the cost of local politics but

:30:58.:31:02.

Mr Speaker, it is of course an important issue. They have the

:31:03.:31:06.

bleeding to do that. It is a matter for local councils as to whether

:31:07.:31:12.

they have elections in thirds, hard or individually and my personal view

:31:13.:31:16.

is that it is a real hike for a local council to do elections every

:31:17.:31:20.

year and I prefer all out elections by self but that is down to local

:31:21.:31:29.

decision-making. Every year on the Sunday closest to St George's Day

:31:30.:31:32.

Enfield Scouts and guides take part in St George 's date parades through

:31:33.:31:39.

Enfield town and I am normally there with them. It is a fantastic day. I

:31:40.:31:44.

want to pay to be to be Scouts and the guides but particularly to all

:31:45.:31:50.

the volunteer leaders who enable Scouts and guides to happen for our

:31:51.:31:53.

young people and what a good job they do. I am very concerned that

:31:54.:31:58.

with the cuts that the Government is passing down to local authorities,

:31:59.:32:03.

youth services are severely at risk and I would ask for a debate in

:32:04.:32:08.

Government time to consider this problem that is affecting our young

:32:09.:32:14.

people and their families. Mr Speaker, can I also pay tribute to

:32:15.:32:18.

the honourable lady for what she had said about anti-Semitism in her

:32:19.:32:22.

party. It brings credit to her as it does to the Shadow leader. Can I

:32:23.:32:25.

also say to her that I absolutely at tree with her on the role of the

:32:26.:32:29.

Scouts and guides but I would say that of course what they represent

:32:30.:32:32.

is the best of our voluntary sector and I think that sometimes we look

:32:33.:32:36.

to depend too much on the Government and public sector for the best work.

:32:37.:32:39.

That work is happening without any involvement of the Government and

:32:40.:32:43.

has done in the centuries since the Scouts and guides movement was

:32:44.:32:49.

formed and long may it continue. The Jewish immunity has a history with

:32:50.:32:54.

Scotland going beyond 200 years -- 's Jewish community, and I know

:32:55.:33:01.

members of this House will want to send a message that we value the

:33:02.:33:05.

contribution they have made not just in Scotland but across the United

:33:06.:33:10.

Kingdom. With that in mind and given events this week, can we have a

:33:11.:33:14.

debate on the valuable contribution that they have made to civil society

:33:15.:33:19.

in this country and, equally important, how we retard

:33:20.:33:22.

anti-Semitism in our political discourse in this country? The

:33:23.:33:28.

honourable gentleman makes a clearly important point and we have heard

:33:29.:33:35.

important contributions on that subject today. This is not just

:33:36.:33:43.

about anti-Semitism. It is about as phobia and prejudices against other

:33:44.:33:48.

groups in our society. There is no place in our society for racial

:33:49.:33:52.

prejudice. It has no place and we should unreservedly condemn it

:33:53.:33:58.

whenever we find it. I would like to ask if we could possibly in light of

:33:59.:34:06.

changes to the railways have a debate about how community groups,

:34:07.:34:10.

such as mining Berry, could lead to discuss how they can drive forward

:34:11.:34:15.

local ownership of railway assets that are to be disposed of so that

:34:16.:34:18.

local people get a say in what happens in their locality? This is

:34:19.:34:23.

actually a very important point and we have to be very careful about

:34:24.:34:28.

disposing of our assets for two reasons. One, as she has described,

:34:29.:34:33.

and the other because local authorities often have a vision to

:34:34.:34:40.

bring transport back into the locale and if that is sold off, that option

:34:41.:34:44.

is taken away. One of the things I am proud of is the reopening of

:34:45.:34:49.

railway lines and railway corridors of the last 15 years. You will be

:34:50.:34:52.

aware, Mr Speaker, that recently a new service was opened from Oxford

:34:53.:34:58.

to London Marylebone across lines which were previously disused and

:34:59.:35:01.

have been brought into operation again and Chiltern Railways. She

:35:02.:35:05.

makes an important point because had decisions being made to dispose of

:35:06.:35:08.

those facilities, that route would not have been possible. We'll ready

:35:09.:35:15.

see the reopening of the line from Cambridge, said she makes an

:35:16.:35:18.

important point about heroin constituency but it is applicable

:35:19.:35:23.

across the country. Last month in business questions I raised the

:35:24.:35:31.

point of Mike constituent -- of my constituency who took a drug which

:35:32.:35:35.

left her children with birth defects. I was advised to raise this

:35:36.:35:39.

at health questions but unfortunately I wasn't successful

:35:40.:35:43.

and I wonder if you have any advice for me on how I can raise the issue

:35:44.:35:50.

of this drug? The health minister has just arrived in the House, so

:35:51.:35:56.

that opportunity, and will probably have heard what she said, but I will

:35:57.:36:00.

raise this with the Department of Health for her at the end of this

:36:01.:36:04.

session and I will ask the appropriate minister to respond to

:36:05.:36:08.

her. She makes a good point and it is one we must be clear of. Many

:36:09.:36:15.

drugs make a difference to our society but when there are side

:36:16.:36:17.

effects like that that she refers to, we must be very careful I am

:36:18.:36:24.

most anxious that the Minister on the Treasury bench should have an

:36:25.:36:34.

opportunity to regain his breath. He is a very welcome arrival. He has

:36:35.:36:37.

just done the marathon. That might be why he is out of breath. Mr

:36:38.:36:44.

Speaker, could we have a debate to discuss the crazy situation I faced

:36:45.:36:47.

in Bexhill and Battle where our local authority has parking

:36:48.:36:51.

enforcement matters the responsibility of the police, who

:36:52.:36:57.

have stated that they can no log do this because they are required to

:36:58.:37:00.

look after policing matters. The local authority refused to take it

:37:01.:37:05.

on and this is driving our residents and business people absolutely mad.

:37:06.:37:08.

Could we have a debate about whether the men should step in and end this

:37:09.:37:14.

madness? Before I answer that, in relation to the arrival of my

:37:15.:37:17.

honourable friend for North East Bedfordshire, can I pay tribute to

:37:18.:37:20.

him but to all the members of the House he ran the marathon last

:37:21.:37:24.

weekend and emerged with medals around their neck, and in the past,

:37:25.:37:34.

but I'd like to focus on this year, please, and I commend all those who

:37:35.:37:40.

raised funds for charity, raised awareness of charities and they

:37:41.:37:45.

deserve a collective pat on the back from people of this House. What I

:37:46.:37:50.

would say from my honourable friend is that he is right. I can

:37:51.:37:53.

understand the frustration that local businesses have I would urge

:37:54.:37:57.

him to be double the on local authorities. If they have enough

:37:58.:38:00.

people coming behind him and what he wants to achieve, in the end, they

:38:01.:38:04.

will have to give way. I am grateful to the Leader of the House and I

:38:05.:38:08.

join him in congratulating the Minister on the front bench on

:38:09.:38:11.

running the marathon again and all other participants in the marathon.

:38:12.:38:17.

But the Leader of the House said is both right and greatly appreciated

:38:18.:38:23.

by colleagues. We come now to the first of our two debates under the

:38:24.:38:26.

auspices of the backbench business committee. This first debate on the

:38:27.:38:34.

subject of World Autism Awareness Week. The precise timings have yet

:38:35.:38:39.

to be determined but I should just say to the House there is a very

:38:40.:38:43.

sharp imbalance in favour of the first debate as against the second.

:38:44.:38:47.

A lot more people trying to take part in this debate and that will

:38:48.:38:52.

influence the judgment of the chair as to how long this debate should be

:38:53.:38:57.

allowed to run. In short, there will be an allocation of time for the

:38:58.:39:01.

second debate, but it will very properly be a lesser allocation of

:39:02.:39:06.

time. To move the motion, I called Mrs Cheryl Gillan. I beg to move the

:39:07.:39:14.

motion that this House notes that World Autism Week was held from the

:39:15.:39:17.

second to the 8th of April when we were on recess and we believe there

:39:18.:39:22.

is a lack of understanding into the needs of autistic people and their

:39:23.:39:26.

families and calls on the Government to improve diagnosis waiting time

:39:27.:39:29.

and support a public awareness campaign so that people can make the

:39:30.:39:35.

changes that will help the UK become autism friendly. I would like to put

:39:36.:39:40.

on record, first of all my thanks to members of the backbench business

:39:41.:39:45.

committee that have granted this debate this afternoon, and also to

:39:46.:39:49.

the chair for indicating that he may be willing to extend the debate

:39:50.:39:52.

because of the demand for people wanting to speak in the debate and I

:39:53.:39:56.

know there are conflicting committee is going on in other parts of the

:39:57.:40:01.

House which is going to give some problems for people to speak in this

:40:02.:40:06.

debate. Also to put on record my thanks as chairman of the all-party

:40:07.:40:11.

and to group for the Deonarine -- for the genuine cross-party support

:40:12.:40:18.

I have received from members of all parties. It is commendable the House

:40:19.:40:22.

should work in this way and it is nice to record that the group, the

:40:23.:40:31.

all-party group on autism, has one of the largest memberships. In 2015,

:40:32.:40:35.

the National Autistic Society carried out a you got pole and found

:40:36.:40:41.

that over 99.5% of the people in the UK had heard of autism. That means

:40:42.:40:45.

that more or less we are all aware of autism which is a jolly good

:40:46.:40:50.

thing. But just 16% of autistic people and their families, who the

:40:51.:40:55.

National Autistic Society spoke to as part of their research, said that

:40:56.:41:00.

the public had a meaningful understanding of autism. Despite all

:41:01.:41:05.

this progress, there remains this enormous golf between awareness and

:41:06.:41:11.

understanding. The key point here is that more understanding may seem

:41:12.:41:13.

like a soft issue that everyone across the House can get by without

:41:14.:41:18.

that much thought, but this issue goes to the core of what people with

:41:19.:41:23.

families who live with autism everyday have to deal with. I give

:41:24.:41:26.

way to the right honourable lady. I congratulate her on all the work

:41:27.:41:37.

she has done on this crucial subject and she mentioned the National

:41:38.:41:41.

autistic Society, please go to them as well for their wonderful work.

:41:42.:41:46.

Would you agree that stigma is still something holding back in the

:41:47.:41:50.

general public and in institutions and in educational institutions

:41:51.:41:53.

amongst so many employers, the stigma around autism still holds us

:41:54.:42:01.

all back as a society? That's true to a greater or lesser extent but I

:42:02.:42:04.

would also want to balance it that in some areas, people on the

:42:05.:42:10.

autistic spectrum are welcomed into the world of work, whether it is at

:42:11.:42:16.

organisations that can take advantage of people from the

:42:17.:42:22.

autistic spectrum and their abilities. I think she is right,

:42:23.:42:29.

hence the debate. I patiently to the work she does and also the minister

:42:30.:42:32.

who met some constituents of mine this week although they don't wish

:42:33.:42:36.

to be named in public. Does she agree on this issue of awareness

:42:37.:42:40.

that she has raised that it is also important that that awareness is in

:42:41.:42:45.

our criminal justice system, too, and particularly in relation to

:42:46.:42:50.

adults with autism? Sometimes it can come into contact with the criminal

:42:51.:42:54.

justice system and there is an inappropriate level of understanding

:42:55.:42:58.

of issues which may have led to that occurring. That is an astute

:42:59.:43:05.

observation and in my speech I will come to the criminal justice system

:43:06.:43:07.

because what they are hoping to do is set the scene across a range of

:43:08.:43:11.

India is because there isn't a part of Government that I don't think

:43:12.:43:15.

autism touches and their implications for, particularly

:43:16.:43:19.

criminal justice were people with autism, I believe, are

:43:20.:43:21.

disproportionately represented in many areas. For people and families

:43:22.:43:29.

who live with autism every day, improving understanding is

:43:30.:43:31.

fundamental to ensuring good levels of health and well-being and an

:43:32.:43:34.

ability to participate in society and the implications are all too

:43:35.:43:40.

real. In the same survey I was talking about, 79% of artistic

:43:41.:43:48.

people feel socially isolated -- autistic and sometimes 50% of people

:43:49.:43:54.

don't go out because they're worried about her public body react to the

:43:55.:44:04.

family. 28% of artistic people have been asked to leave a public area.

:44:05.:44:09.

To help tackle the isolation, I think many people in the House now

:44:10.:44:15.

there has been a campaign launched starting with Too Much Information

:44:16.:44:26.

Sentence --. I was glad to support that in Parliament. The cornerstone

:44:27.:44:32.

is that short film, shot from the point of view of a child with autism

:44:33.:44:36.

which tries to give you a sense of what it's like living in the

:44:37.:44:40.

overwhelming world that someone with autism works in every day. Many

:44:41.:44:45.

parliamentary colleagues actually joined me for the event and I was

:44:46.:44:49.

glad to report, this is almost unbelievable but it is a good sign,

:44:50.:44:53.

to date this video has been viewed online 50 million times but the film

:44:54.:44:58.

only marks the very start of the campaign and clearly there is much

:44:59.:45:01.

more that must be done to help tackle social isolation amongst the

:45:02.:45:06.

nearly 80% of people on the spectrum who say they feel isolated. Over the

:45:07.:45:16.

years, Government has shown huge leadership on the awareness of other

:45:17.:45:21.

issues, with more than ?2.3 million spent on dementia awareness and ?20

:45:22.:45:27.

million on mental health awareness. Thank you so much! I wish it was

:45:28.:45:40.

gin! Wells my honourable friend helped herself to water, which she

:45:41.:45:44.

agree organisations that help people with people with Asperger's that

:45:45.:45:49.

help them to socialise can play really important role in helping to

:45:50.:45:53.

build the confidence of those people and making sure the have the support

:45:54.:45:57.

they need to go into the working world? I'm doubly grateful to my

:45:58.:46:01.

honourable friend but he's absolutely right, the achievements

:46:02.:46:07.

of these programmes should be congratulated by all of us across

:46:08.:46:12.

the House. I think action is also needed for the 700,000 people in the

:46:13.:46:16.

UK on the autism spectrum and their families and I'm aware that the

:46:17.:46:21.

Government has invested 325,000 on autism awareness work but this is a

:46:22.:46:28.

drop in the ocean if our aim, as I believe it should be, that this

:46:29.:46:32.

generation of autistic children goes up in the world that understands

:46:33.:46:36.

them. I would like to pay tribute to the Minister on the front bench

:46:37.:46:38.

because he has honestly attended every autism meeting and function

:46:39.:46:44.

that I have asked him to 90 shares a great deal of understanding in this

:46:45.:46:50.

area so I am looking for two... -- foreword to a meaningful response

:46:51.:46:54.

from him. More leadership is needed from Government and I hope... Give

:46:55.:47:02.

way. I'm grateful to the honourable lady and work she does on this

:47:03.:47:08.

subject. Does she agree with me only 15% of adults suffering from autism

:47:09.:47:14.

and then employment and that is worrying? And she think it should be

:47:15.:47:20.

right that Government should support organisations for autism to help the

:47:21.:47:24.

transition that could be crucial for so many? I think she is absolutely

:47:25.:47:30.

right and I will mention some organisations at the end but

:47:31.:47:37.

Ambition For Autism is one of many that are trying to help people with

:47:38.:47:40.

autism into employment because it is a very important part so I will

:47:41.:47:46.

mention it later. Holding on the intervention from the honourable

:47:47.:47:49.

gentleman on the criminal justice system, I recently visited Her

:47:50.:47:53.

Majesty's Young offenders Institute in Feltham receiver myself

:47:54.:48:03.

first-hand -- to see for myself first-hand how adjustments can help

:48:04.:48:06.

someone on the spectrum. The present recently went to accreditation and

:48:07.:48:11.

the prison staff's enthusiasm to helping the young people in their

:48:12.:48:13.

charge is admirable and really wonderful to see. I really hope that

:48:14.:48:22.

members of the APPG are going to come and see what has been done.

:48:23.:48:29.

Autism can be dramatic but without specific adjustments and will be

:48:30.:48:32.

much harder for them to re-engage in their abilities -- rehabilitation.

:48:33.:48:43.

Producing posters to help overstimulation I just mull things

:48:44.:48:49.

that can do a great deal to help autistic prisoners. I would like to

:48:50.:48:53.

put it into the Minister for prisons who wrote to every single prison in

:48:54.:48:56.

this country asking them to undertake autism accreditation.

:48:57.:49:01.

Currently over 20 have been back in touch with the NAS and four more are

:49:02.:49:10.

going through the process. Its first king of Government leadership we

:49:11.:49:13.

want. We want this kind of leadership sustained and when I ask

:49:14.:49:20.

Government to do more for awareness of autism, it is this kind of

:49:21.:49:24.

response I expected get. More to be done on the criminal justice system,

:49:25.:49:29.

particularly in the courts. Following the example of Feltham, I

:49:30.:49:36.

think the public should do more to make sure its buildings are

:49:37.:49:40.

accessible to autistic people so their families can be confident in

:49:41.:49:43.

visiting public buildings and using public services in the same way as

:49:44.:49:47.

everyone else. I was really pleased to be for example over the weekend

:49:48.:49:56.

that Asda is piloting a quiet hour in Manchester where they will turn

:49:57.:50:00.

off the music and screens to create a shopping experience for those with

:50:01.:50:05.

autism that is more comfortable. That is to be commended. It would be

:50:06.:50:09.

remiss of me not to mention that Parliament is working under the

:50:10.:50:12.

leadership of the Speaker to want an autism access a word and to make

:50:13.:50:17.

sure that autistic visitors in our place of work feel confident they

:50:18.:50:20.

will be understood and treated well -- artistic award. I hope the

:50:21.:50:28.

Minister will meet with me again and members of the APPG to discuss how

:50:29.:50:35.

together we can build on the early successes of the Too Much

:50:36.:50:39.

Information campaign and ensure that all public buildings will become

:50:40.:50:41.

accessible to people on the spectrum. On of the biggest issues

:50:42.:50:53.

is the time it takes to get an autism diagnosis in the first place.

:50:54.:50:59.

Recent research suggests more than two years is what adults are having

:51:00.:51:03.

to wait for a diagnosis and four children the figure stands at 3.6

:51:04.:51:09.

years. An autism diagnosis can be life changing and can explain use of

:51:10.:51:13.

fuelling different and help unlock professional advice and support and

:51:14.:51:17.

Government guidelines say a diagnosis shouldn't be a barrier to

:51:18.:51:23.

getting the right support in place but 15% of people on the spectrum

:51:24.:51:28.

have told the NAS that a diagnosis directly led to getting new or more

:51:29.:51:33.

support and how can the late to support the identified without

:51:34.:51:39.

clarity on a diagnosis? It is fabulous to be having this debate

:51:40.:51:42.

here today. Can I back up on this point about the delay for diagnosis?

:51:43.:51:48.

I've spoken to many families in my constituency waiting for months for

:51:49.:51:51.

a diagnosis for a child on a child could and should be having help with

:51:52.:51:57.

the enormous difficulties, not years being wasted, yet you can't even get

:51:58.:52:01.

the data from the county council of the NHS about diagnosis and not only

:52:02.:52:06.

are there delays but also a lack of transparency about the waiting times

:52:07.:52:11.

for diagnosis. It is clear that despite the best intentions of

:52:12.:52:14.

Government, getting that diagnosis is still crucial. Give way. I will

:52:15.:52:24.

for the last time. Can I join in and tribute to her for the work she has

:52:25.:52:30.

done? It is an incredibly important subject. I don't know whether she

:52:31.:52:35.

sought an in-depth report in the Economist but it reports on a

:52:36.:52:38.

Swedish study which found that the cost of lifelong care for someone

:52:39.:52:43.

with autism could be cut by two thirds with early diagnosis and

:52:44.:52:47.

treatment so the moral case at economic case is overwhelming for

:52:48.:52:54.

doing this. I think NHS England should collect and publish and

:52:55.:52:58.

monitor key information on how long people are waiting for diagnosis and

:52:59.:53:02.

how many people are known to their GP to have autism and they should

:53:03.:53:05.

ensure that waiting time standards on mental health currently in

:53:06.:53:09.

development reflect national guidance that no one waits longer

:53:10.:53:14.

than three months after being referred for diagnosis. I think the

:53:15.:53:18.

Government must share this commitment and ensure that NHS

:53:19.:53:21.

England meets its aims because timely access to autism diagnosis

:53:22.:53:25.

should be written into the Government's mandate on NHS England.

:53:26.:53:29.

I want to touch on autism and mortality. A report highlighted

:53:30.:53:33.

distressing findings from Sweden. The research found that autistic

:53:34.:53:37.

people taken as a population have a lower life expectancy than the

:53:38.:53:41.

overall average. The research from Sweden shows that autistic people

:53:42.:53:46.

and at risk of dying younger from almost every cause of death but on

:53:47.:53:49.

average this was 18 years earlier than the general population. For

:53:50.:54:00.

artistic people with a learning to -- disability it is even larger.

:54:01.:54:05.

They are dying 30 years before their time on average. People who have a

:54:06.:54:08.

learning disability are more likely to die a live from epilepsy and

:54:09.:54:14.

those without a learning disability are at a greater risk of suicide. It

:54:15.:54:19.

is worth remembering the Swedish health care system is different to

:54:20.:54:22.

ours but given the seriousness of this research, it is vital to

:54:23.:54:26.

understand this is also the case in the UK and in so that we understand

:54:27.:54:30.

the reasons. The report calls for this to be investigated as a matter

:54:31.:54:34.

of urgency and I urge the Government to keep this call. I would also like

:54:35.:54:40.

to make some brief comments about the Department of Health endorsed

:54:41.:54:46.

autism hospital passport. It is to help people on the autism spectrum

:54:47.:54:51.

to communicate their needs to doctors and nurses. It was greeted

:54:52.:54:57.

why Baroness Browning in collaboration with the NHS. When it

:54:58.:55:01.

comes to health care, it enables people on the spectrum and their

:55:02.:55:05.

families to have a much better experience of their interaction with

:55:06.:55:08.

the health service and gain better, more timely, more fitting health

:55:09.:55:12.

care at the right time and in the right place. Again, I now want to

:55:13.:55:18.

turn to education because they just want to touch on the various areas

:55:19.:55:21.

in those opening speech that I hope other members will pick up on. Where

:55:22.:55:26.

we have the special schools on autism, for instance the NHS is

:55:27.:55:29.

about to open a new one in Epping Forest supported by the Anderson

:55:30.:55:36.

foundation, we have no fears about the ability of the teachers to

:55:37.:55:41.

understand autism but the training they receive on autism has to be

:55:42.:55:46.

looked at carefully. Only 60% of children who responded to a survey

:55:47.:55:49.

said the single factor that makes school better for them was that if

:55:50.:55:54.

teachers understood autism and teachers agree that they want this

:55:55.:56:00.

training, a survey conducted in 2013 found that 60% of teachers believe

:56:01.:56:05.

they did not have enough training in autism and work is going on to

:56:06.:56:10.

create core content for teacher training courses but we do need to

:56:11.:56:14.

make sure that no teacher enters the classroom without the tools they

:56:15.:56:19.

need to support those in their charge. One of the interventions

:56:20.:56:25.

touched on employment and I want to turn to what Jordan on the spectrum

:56:26.:56:29.

want after they leave education. They want the same things as we all

:56:30.:56:36.

want out of life, stable, secure, fulfilling opportunities that allow

:56:37.:56:39.

them the same opportunities to lead independent lives that we have.

:56:40.:56:43.

However, currently too few people on the spectrum enjoy the opportunity

:56:44.:56:48.

to find a job to help maintain that independence. The Government has

:56:49.:56:51.

pledged to have the disability employment gap which has welcomed on

:56:52.:56:55.

all sides of the House and we await the Government's soon-to-be

:56:56.:56:58.

published paper and a secular state for the Department of Work and

:56:59.:57:01.

Pensions's recent addition is that this is a key priority.

:57:02.:57:06.

Research by Scope has showed that disability employment has remained

:57:07.:57:13.

static in the last year, on the Government cannot rely on the

:57:14.:57:17.

improving economy to fix this issue, and more will need to be done to fix

:57:18.:57:21.

this gap. The autism employment gap is even worse. The latest data

:57:22.:57:28.

indicates 15% of autistic adults are in full-time paid work, and 26% of

:57:29.:57:34.

graduates on the autism spectrum are unemployed, by far the highest of

:57:35.:57:39.

any disability group. The Government 's mainstream employment schedules

:57:40.:57:48.

do not fit the long-term needs of people with the autistic spectrum.

:57:49.:57:55.

Research shows them to be successful, for example, research

:57:56.:57:58.

into one specialist support scheme is found that 70% of adults find

:57:59.:58:01.

work when supported by autism professionals. So the All Party

:58:02.:58:06.

Parliamentary Group on Iran is to return to this work later this year,

:58:07.:58:09.

but in the meantime, I have several questions. Will the Government's

:58:10.:58:15.

disability white paper include proposals for ensuring people can

:58:16.:58:19.

access special support, in seeking to halve the disability employment

:58:20.:58:23.

gap will the Minister report on progress by condition, so low

:58:24.:58:26.

employment rates are people with conditions such as autism can be

:58:27.:58:30.

specifically tackled. And crucially, will the Minister in sure that the

:58:31.:58:33.

new records, whether someone on the programme is on the autism spectrum,

:58:34.:58:42.

are recorded? It is difficult to address all the areas today, and I

:58:43.:58:45.

haven't touched on social care, mental health, or benefits. But I

:58:46.:58:50.

know there are many colleagues that want to speak, and I really do not

:58:51.:58:55.

want to take up too much more time. In summing up, I would like to

:58:56.:58:58.

return to the public awareness of the condition. Survey after survey

:58:59.:59:02.

of people on the spectrum tell us that better understanding of the

:59:03.:59:05.

condition amongst both the public and professionals would be the one

:59:06.:59:08.

thing that would help them feel more secure and allow them to have

:59:09.:59:13.

fulfilling lives. People on the spectrum are reasonable. They don't

:59:14.:59:15.

expect an ordinary member of the public with no knowledge of the

:59:16.:59:20.

condition to be aware of the technic details about the diagnostic

:59:21.:59:23.

criteria, but they feel that a little more understanding,

:59:24.:59:25.

compassion and awareness would make all the difference to their lives.

:59:26.:59:31.

If you see a I having a meltdown in a supermarket, or an adult acting a

:59:32.:59:35.

bit differently on the train, stop and think for a moment. They may be

:59:36.:59:40.

autistic and need your kindness, not your judgment. And before I

:59:41.:59:46.

conclude, I just want to thank all the organisations who have been

:59:47.:59:49.

involved in contributing to the knowledge of members in this House

:59:50.:59:52.

today, particularly those charities and groups with whom we work

:59:53.:59:56.

closely. The National Autistic Society who provide the secretary at

:59:57.:00:04.

the APB BG, the children's services development group and the many

:00:05.:00:06.

individuals that have got in touch with me and with all of you in the

:00:07.:00:12.

past week. I hope together we can improve the lives of those with

:00:13.:00:15.

autism, and make some real progress in this area. The question is as on

:00:16.:00:21.

the order paper, we will start with a speech limit of six minutes and

:00:22.:00:27.

see how we get on. Madame Deputy Speaker, anticipating today's debate

:00:28.:00:32.

and in his customary eloquent way, the guardian columnist John Harris

:00:33.:00:34.

wrote a summation of some of the issues around autism just last

:00:35.:00:37.

Saturday, and he ended his peace with these words. Our culture still

:00:38.:00:42.

too often catches autism in terms of pity or fear, as in centrally

:00:43.:00:46.

Victorian sensibility lingers on, but we are moving towards a new

:00:47.:00:49.

world in which autistic the Bill and their families advocate for

:00:50.:00:52.

themselves. For them, the current noise about autism highlights an

:00:53.:00:55.

inevitable phase of any struggle against ignorance. The point at

:00:56.:00:59.

which you know you have, long way but still have light years to go.

:01:00.:01:05.

When we consider the debate in legislation in this House, we too

:01:06.:01:09.

have come a long way, and a considerable part of this is the

:01:10.:01:12.

work of the loyal member for Cheshire and Amersham. I thought I

:01:13.:01:20.

would focus on a couple of areas in mice short contribution. First on

:01:21.:01:30.

diagnosis delayed, is something we all have countless example is of.

:01:31.:01:33.

The children, as we have heard, average diagnosis now stands at some

:01:34.:01:38.

three and a half years. In my experience, talking to parents and

:01:39.:01:44.

experts, this is partly down to insufficient training, cost

:01:45.:01:47.

pressures within the system, and the reality that the parents, not

:01:48.:01:54.

knowing where to turn, it is not known how to access the services.

:01:55.:01:59.

People are dealing with a system of immense complexity buckling under

:02:00.:02:02.

the cuts with no single point of contact marked autism within the

:02:03.:02:07.

system. For many it is simply bewildering and very often very

:02:08.:02:10.

scary, and finally I was going to highlight some of the amazing people

:02:11.:02:13.

and campaign work done at local level, people such as my constituent

:02:14.:02:20.

Fae how who only last week led a large demonstration demanding better

:02:21.:02:22.

services support for autistic people and their families. I also wanted to

:02:23.:02:27.

make a couple of points regarding the nature of research and where

:02:28.:02:31.

this might develop, both to help our overall awareness but most

:02:32.:02:33.

importantly help autistic citizens and their families. Recent figures

:02:34.:02:37.

suggest 1% of population has an autistic spectrum condition, a 20

:02:38.:02:42.

fold increase in the 50 years since the first study. Given this need, we

:02:43.:02:50.

need more and better research, and we can detect, especially in the US,

:02:51.:02:55.

a dramatic expansion in autism research, for example the 2006

:02:56.:02:59.

combating autism act authorised millions of dollars for autism

:03:00.:03:03.

research over a five-year period to develop screening, early diagnosis

:03:04.:03:06.

and children's intervention strategies, and it has been

:03:07.:03:10.

estimated that in 2010 alone, autism research in the US exceeded some 400

:03:11.:03:17.

million US dollars. Here in the UK, research suggests that public and

:03:18.:03:22.

private funding organisations in vests on ?21 million into autism

:03:23.:03:27.

research between 2007 and 2011, amounting to a significant increase,

:03:28.:03:31.

but the question is whether this research is being focused on the

:03:32.:03:34.

correct issues, and does it tally with the needs of autistic people

:03:35.:03:38.

and their families. I refer to an article in autism entitled what

:03:39.:03:44.

should autism research focus on? And they suggested that research

:03:45.:03:46.

activities should be broadened to reflect the priorities of the UK

:03:47.:03:50.

autism community, focusing in particular on research that helps

:03:51.:03:54.

people live with autism. It would appear obvious that research should

:03:55.:03:57.

maximise its impact on the life experiences of those affected, are

:03:58.:04:03.

constituents, so why might this apparently self-evident objective

:04:04.:04:06.

not be the case? When we look at the debate about the research, there

:04:07.:04:10.

appears to be a tension between projects that focus on the basic

:04:11.:04:14.

science, cognitive systems, genetics and risk factors, and on the other

:04:15.:04:22.

hand, research that focuses on the understanding and promotion of how

:04:23.:04:24.

families function of the services the families need. Evidence suggests

:04:25.:04:29.

that in the US they realise this and achieve a growing diversity of

:04:30.:04:34.

research funding to the direct benefit of autistic citizens and

:04:35.:04:39.

their families. In contrast, evidenced here suggest the

:04:40.:04:41.

diversification of funding has not occurred here in the UK. This

:04:42.:04:45.

suggests both in terms of numbers project and total research grant,

:04:46.:04:50.

but project in the areas of biology, brain and cognition outstripped all

:04:51.:04:53.

other areas of autism research by a vast margin. The effect is very

:04:54.:04:59.

little research funding directed into identifying effective services

:05:00.:05:03.

for autistic people and their families, on services, treatments,

:05:04.:05:07.

intervention and education. This is not just an academic issue, it

:05:08.:05:10.

relates directly to all of the questions discussed this afternoon

:05:11.:05:13.

regarding autism awareness. Research at the centre of research in

:05:14.:05:18.

autistic education suggest the families of autistic people do

:05:19.:05:21.

indeed value the research into the underlying causes of autism, but

:05:22.:05:26.

need a more balanced distribution that redirect attention onto their

:05:27.:05:33.

daily lives, needs and services. Can I congratulate the honourable member

:05:34.:05:36.

for Cheshire and Amersham on achieving this debate. I had a

:05:37.:05:45.

secondary school for young people with autism in my constituency, and

:05:46.:05:50.

their governing body has written to me, and I wonder if my honourable

:05:51.:05:56.

friend has the same concerns, that with the Government consulting on

:05:57.:05:58.

changes to the national school funding formula, including the

:05:59.:06:02.

formula for high needs. They are worried there will be a levelling

:06:03.:06:07.

down of fun that will be drawn away from these schools which would be

:06:08.:06:12.

very damaging. That is precisely what some of us were going to

:06:13.:06:15.

mention in the debate that was cancelled on Monday evening around

:06:16.:06:17.

pressures on the systems regarding special-needs children. This takes

:06:18.:06:22.

us back to the point I was going to raise regarding problems with

:06:23.:06:25.

diagnosis, entry point into the system, the cuts being experienced.

:06:26.:06:29.

These are all linked to the research based around autism in terms of

:06:30.:06:34.

effective public will see making. It links to commissioning of services,

:06:35.:06:37.

decision making a front-line staff as well as dilemmas facing autistic

:06:38.:06:41.

people and their families. The evidence base that exists for

:06:42.:06:43.

decisions around autism and public service provision. I look forward to

:06:44.:06:48.

a reorientation in the research priorities around autism, to balance

:06:49.:06:52.

out research funding of projects like we appear to have achieved in

:06:53.:06:56.

the US, to balance out the scientific research with

:06:57.:06:58.

understanding that leads to the most effective support offered to our

:06:59.:07:02.

autistic citizens and their families, as well as greater

:07:03.:07:04.

coordination around autistic research which they appear to have

:07:05.:07:07.

again achieved through strategic oversight in the US. And finally, in

:07:08.:07:11.

the involvement of autistic people and their families in the strategic

:07:12.:07:16.

decisions. There are some basic issues of democracy involved in this

:07:17.:07:20.

debate. To conclude, it is great we are having this debate today,

:07:21.:07:23.

another sign of progress, but to return to the words of my friend

:07:24.:07:26.

John Harris, whose family have tried to navigate this system for many

:07:27.:07:29.

years, we appear to be at the point which we know we have come a long

:07:30.:07:32.

way, but still have light years to go. Thank you very much. I would

:07:33.:07:39.

like to congratulate my right honourable friend from Amersham and

:07:40.:07:44.

Cheshire for securing this debate, because it is a very important bait,

:07:45.:07:49.

and I only relative important it was just before the last election when I

:07:50.:07:54.

met a group of parents in my constituency who were talking about

:07:55.:07:57.

the problems that they had had. Before that I had obviously met

:07:58.:08:00.

people with autism, but I hadn't understood the pressures that

:08:01.:08:05.

parents and families are put under by the diagnosis or even not having

:08:06.:08:14.

the diagnosis of their children's problems. I met people who had never

:08:15.:08:37.

had a diagnosis and didn't think that they would ever have a

:08:38.:08:39.

diagnosis because nobody seemed to recognise that their child had

:08:40.:08:41.

autism, but it was clear that what they said that the children were not

:08:42.:08:43.

suffering from a form of autism, but it had never been recognised, and

:08:44.:08:45.

they were at the end of their tether and did not know where to turn to

:08:46.:08:48.

next. Also it isn't just mothers that have the problem, there were a

:08:49.:08:50.

lot of dads there as well, and it isn't just when they are children,

:08:51.:08:52.

it is often when they become adults as well, when there is even less

:08:53.:08:54.

support than there is for children. So it is whole families that are

:08:55.:08:57.

affected, and it can have such a big strain that it affects the marriage

:08:58.:09:01.

or the partnership of the parents, and many of those situations break

:09:02.:09:10.

down when people have one, two or three children with autism, and I

:09:11.:09:13.

want to focus more on local situations in Derby and Derbyshire,

:09:14.:09:18.

where I feel that the system is failing the children who need a

:09:19.:09:21.

diagnosis, and need the help in the schools. And I have met so many

:09:22.:09:51.

people now through then, an active in the area who have autism and who

:09:52.:10:03.

have children who have autism. And in fact, last year and this year

:10:04.:10:05.

during National autism week, they have shown people in the area that

:10:06.:10:07.

there is a problem, and to highlight National autism week, and I commend

:10:08.:10:09.

them for that. Yes, of course. Interesting and powerful points are

:10:10.:10:10.

being made, although she has mentioned a number of times the

:10:11.:10:12.

problem that autism faces, and I am someone who has employed and had in

:10:13.:10:14.

my office someone who was on the autistic spectrum. She agree with me

:10:15.:10:16.

that we need to change the narrative, because people on the

:10:17.:10:20.

artist expects from -- on the autistic spectrum have special

:10:21.:10:22.

skills, and it is important that This is far too long when you have a

:10:23.:12:17.

child having problems in school with their behaviour. They need the help

:12:18.:12:26.

now. The children and families act 2014 mandate of local authorities to

:12:27.:12:28.

move from special educational needs statements which outlined their

:12:29.:12:31.

chance and needs and have a help that would be given to an education

:12:32.:12:35.

health and care plan for each child. It also reduced the amount of time

:12:36.:12:40.

children with special educational needs had to wait for an education

:12:41.:12:46.

care plan from 26 weeks to 20 weeks. However, the average in Derby is 35

:12:47.:12:54.

weeks. That is after waiting a year. Derby local authority did not make

:12:55.:12:57.

sufficient plans to prepare themselves for the change and have

:12:58.:13:05.

been on the back foot ever since. Until February 2016, only 12% of

:13:06.:13:09.

statements have become education health and care plans, which is

:13:10.:13:12.

really unhelpful for families. And the gap in between the causes delays

:13:13.:13:18.

in education and the development of the child and additional stress on

:13:19.:13:23.

the family caring for them. Some local authorities, and I believe in

:13:24.:13:28.

Derby city are now asking for schools to complete the education

:13:29.:13:30.

health and care plans even though they are not meant to. And the

:13:31.:13:35.

training given by Derby city to its own staff and school staff on the

:13:36.:13:39.

changes in the law has been labelled by some parents as diabolical. Admin

:13:40.:13:45.

staff as schools do not understand the difference between a special

:13:46.:13:48.

education needs statement and education health and care plans,

:13:49.:13:51.

because they often just copy and paste it. Without an EH C P,

:13:52.:14:01.

autistic spectrum children are being managed by inexperienced stab at a

:14:02.:14:10.

fundamental of ASD. Derby are having to employ consultants to help make

:14:11.:14:13.

changes to know what they are doing a costing for times as much as the

:14:14.:14:19.

usual school administrative staff. -- four times. It seems to me that

:14:20.:14:23.

all local authorities claim to being short of money wasting money, except

:14:24.:14:29.

if it does get its still more quickly for families and children

:14:30.:14:31.

with autism, it is obviously better for them. But this money could be

:14:32.:14:37.

better spent on mental health care for autistic children and their

:14:38.:14:42.

families. Now, if local authorities would consistently ask the schools

:14:43.:14:44.

themselves to do with the care plans, as is happening in Derby, we

:14:45.:14:49.

need to ensure that schools are given the funds and training needed

:14:50.:14:55.

to be able to do this. There is no obvious legal accountability if

:14:56.:14:59.

deadlines are not met. Now, we need to support parents and siblings

:15:00.:15:08.

affected with the children with ASD. Early diagnosis is absolutely key to

:15:09.:15:11.

avoid mental health problems associated with not knowing what is

:15:12.:15:15.

wrong and being able to deal with it. We need to move faster than help

:15:16.:15:19.

these children and families deal with the problems that they have.

:15:20.:15:27.

Brendan O horror. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you to the

:15:28.:15:31.

chair for indulging me to call me to this this spate -- debate. I'm

:15:32.:15:42.

grateful for being called so early. Thank you to the member for

:15:43.:15:46.

temp-macro for securing this very, very important debate. Autism is a

:15:47.:15:50.

spectrum condition, meaning that no to autistic people display the same

:15:51.:15:54.

characteristics. Some people live with autism live a relatively

:15:55.:15:57.

independent lives while others at the other end of the spectrum may

:15:58.:16:01.

need lifetime specialist care and support. And that demands every

:16:02.:16:06.

single person living with autism is treated as an individual and that

:16:07.:16:13.

society affords each individual the respect and dignity that they

:16:14.:16:17.

deserve. Absolutely no doubt that we as a society in to do that. But the

:16:18.:16:26.

question is, do we actually do that? I recently met with the National

:16:27.:16:30.

Autistic Society at the launch of their too much information campaign.

:16:31.:16:35.

A campaign designed to help people recognise autistic behaviour and to

:16:36.:16:38.

better understand how they should respond to it. It is an excellent

:16:39.:16:43.

report and sometimes makes sport uncomfortable reading, but I commend

:16:44.:16:47.

it to all members of the House. Because contained in that report, a

:16:48.:16:54.

society publishes its figures from a wide ranging survey which they have

:16:55.:16:58.

commissioned looking at public attitudes to those with autism. The

:16:59.:17:03.

findings suggest that we as a society have a long way to go and --

:17:04.:17:09.

in affording people living with autism the respect and dignity they

:17:10.:17:14.

most certainly deserve. Although almost every single person in the

:17:15.:17:18.

United Kingdom had heard of autism or were aware of it, only a fraction

:17:19.:17:24.

actually recognised what it meant and there is indeed a chasm between

:17:25.:17:29.

the public awareness of autism and the public understanding of autism.

:17:30.:17:34.

And it is this lack of public understanding of autism that is

:17:35.:17:38.

causing great distress for those living with the condition and their

:17:39.:17:43.

families. My right honourable friend has given a sum of the findings, but

:17:44.:17:49.

I think they are worth repeating. As 87% of parents say they have

:17:50.:17:52.

experienced people stopping and staring at their children while

:17:53.:17:58.

displaying autistic behaviour. 74% of parents have experienced public

:17:59.:18:04.

expressions of disapproval at their children displaying autistic

:18:05.:18:10.

behaviour. What is important about this survey was the National

:18:11.:18:14.

Autistic Society spoke to people living with autism and what they

:18:15.:18:19.

discovered, I think, was pretty depressing. 84% of people living

:18:20.:18:25.

with autism feel they have been judged by the rest of society -- are

:18:26.:18:30.

being judged by society as being and I quote, strange. Yes, I will give

:18:31.:18:38.

way. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would he not agree that

:18:39.:18:43.

that reaction by people to those in our society with autism, but also

:18:44.:18:47.

their broader family, actually then leads, as Michael Stich and said, to

:18:48.:18:53.

a fear of you not going out? That then means as we know, particularly

:18:54.:18:59.

with autistic children, as they transition into adults, there is a

:19:00.:19:02.

social isolation for them and very often their primary carer that is

:19:03.:19:06.

not adequately recognised across the board. My honourable friend is

:19:07.:19:13.

correct and I will touch on that in a moment. But looking at the

:19:14.:19:19.

statistics, 70% of people living with autism believe the public see

:19:20.:19:27.

them as being anti-social. One third, almost one third people

:19:28.:19:30.

living with autism have been asked to leave a public place because are

:19:31.:19:37.

displaying behaviour is associated with their condition. And as a

:19:38.:19:42.

result, as my honourable friend has just said, for in every five people

:19:43.:19:46.

living with autism in the UK feels isolated from society and half of

:19:47.:19:52.

people with autism do not go out for fear of how people will react to

:19:53.:19:56.

their condition. As I said, Madam Deputy Speaker, it makes pretty

:19:57.:20:00.

depressing reading and I think they should force us all to look at our

:20:01.:20:03.

own behaviours and question what we are doing as a group and as a

:20:04.:20:09.

community to our fellow citizens that makes them view social

:20:10.:20:15.

isolation as being preferable to how they are currently treated by the

:20:16.:20:20.

public, ourselves including. It is not all bad news, there is good news

:20:21.:20:26.

within the National autistic report, the Society report and it does show

:20:27.:20:30.

that their research shows they have greater knowledge and a better

:20:31.:20:35.

understanding, the public will behave generally with much greater

:20:36.:20:44.

empathy towards autistic people. Perhaps one of the pieces of good

:20:45.:20:49.

news is that many areas of Scotland are blessed with speech and language

:20:50.:20:52.

therapists who understand well at the condition and can give

:20:53.:20:57.

particular support in schools for example for those with particular

:20:58.:21:01.

communication challenges. I thank my honourable friend for the

:21:02.:21:06.

intervention, I know he's a specialist in that area commend what

:21:07.:21:09.

has been done throughout Scotland and soon I hope, throughout the UK

:21:10.:21:18.

in that field. There is much to look forward to and be hopeful about. It

:21:19.:21:21.

is about getting the key messages out to the public and of those key

:21:22.:21:26.

messages are that people with autism may need extra time to process

:21:27.:21:32.

information and respond to people. People with autism can become

:21:33.:21:37.

anxious in social situations, people with autism can become anxious when

:21:38.:21:43.

faced with unexpected changes and unscheduled events. People with

:21:44.:21:48.

autism are also very often hypersensitive to noise, light,

:21:49.:21:53.

smell or colour. And do you know what? When things get too much,

:21:54.:21:57.

people with autism can sometimes have a meltdown. Deal with it. I

:21:58.:22:04.

conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, if I may, by quoting from the Scottish

:22:05.:22:09.

Government's strategy for autism and the line I'd like to quote says the

:22:10.:22:15.

Scottish Government's vision is that individuals under the autism

:22:16.:22:19.

spectrum are respected, accepted and valued by their communities and have

:22:20.:22:23.

the confidence and ease services to treat them fairly so they are best

:22:24.:22:27.

able to a meaningful and satisfying lives. I think that is something on

:22:28.:22:32.

which this -- this entire House can unite around. I would

:22:33.:22:46.

The tireless work she has done over so many years, to start a change

:22:47.:22:52.

Government rarities on autism and those of our country who are not

:22:53.:22:57.

newer atypical. It has been really moving to hear comments from my

:22:58.:23:00.

honourable friend from Bury St Edmunds and the honourable member

:23:01.:23:06.

for Argyll and Bute to describe in detail some of the actualities of

:23:07.:23:09.

families and those who suffer from autism. It was as my right

:23:10.:23:15.

honourable friend's autism act was going through this House that I was

:23:16.:23:19.

battling to find diagnosis from my own son at the time. It was evident

:23:20.:23:24.

to me that my bright and articulate young boy was not like other boys of

:23:25.:23:29.

his age. He had an extraordinary level of concentration, extremely

:23:30.:23:32.

high reading skills, and could convert and length with adults in a

:23:33.:23:36.

most unusual way. But he was also very anxious, fearful of noise,

:23:37.:23:41.

bright lights, unable to cope with anything unexpected in his day,

:23:42.:23:45.

literally the slightest change to what time we left the House and all

:23:46.:23:49.

hell broke loose. And so once he started his schooling at the age of

:23:50.:23:53.

three, his young life became increasingly more challenging, and

:23:54.:23:59.

school life, which demands conformity, became something he

:24:00.:24:06.

could not cope with. We struggled on for years because nobody seemed to

:24:07.:24:10.

have any ideas, teachers just occasionally asked me to pick him up

:24:11.:24:20.

early and if it got too much. They would say, could they not feed him

:24:21.:24:22.

with every body else, there was a problem in the canteen. I was a man

:24:23.:24:30.

who had a little boy who had so many talents, but eventually, my GP,

:24:31.:24:32.

wonderful man, referred us to a child psychologist, whose failure to

:24:33.:24:37.

correctly diagnosed my son is autistic was nothing short of

:24:38.:24:47.

shocking. Not only did he not see what my son was suffering from, but

:24:48.:24:53.

he tried to medicate him with Ritter Linford ADHD -- with Ritalin for

:24:54.:25:06.

ADHD. It was only because I fought back against the medical

:25:07.:25:09.

profession's failure that my son was not inappropriately drugged. It was

:25:10.:25:14.

only because with huge financial support from my family that we

:25:15.:25:16.

eventually found a team of paediatric doctors based at Great

:25:17.:25:21.

Ormond Street Hospital in London, 350 miles from our home in

:25:22.:25:25.

Northumberland. They quickly diagnosed my boy is an Asp urges

:25:26.:25:32.

syndrome sufferer, we received support and were empowered to

:25:33.:25:37.

challenge schools and regulations so that we could once again enjoy and

:25:38.:25:42.

thrive in the learning environment. I have to say there have been two or

:25:43.:25:50.

three teachers in our lives for whom medals are not adequate, who have

:25:51.:25:53.

learned for themselves what it means to be an autistic little boy, and

:25:54.:26:00.

you have other children come through the system afterwards. The pressures

:26:01.:26:10.

which normal life puts on our autistic children should not be

:26:11.:26:14.

underestimated. No right-thinking person would ask a child with a

:26:15.:26:17.

broken leg to run up the stairs, but the invisibility of autism means

:26:18.:26:21.

that these children are asked to do things which that hypersensitivity

:26:22.:26:28.

or gaps in your neurological sensitivity means too much for them.

:26:29.:26:32.

Isn't it true that your son was lucky because he had a mother who

:26:33.:26:37.

was prepared to fight, and the ability to fight? There are many

:26:38.:26:41.

parents like that who will fight for their children, as most parents want

:26:42.:26:45.

to do. But there are some who do not have the ability to do that all the

:26:46.:26:49.

confidence to do that, and they are the ones that are really being let

:26:50.:26:59.

down by the system. That is part of the reason why I am here, I decided

:27:00.:27:03.

that advocacy was needed for those who are not able to access the

:27:04.:27:09.

system, how to fight back or are too honest and quiet folk trying to get

:27:10.:27:14.

on with their day, muddling on with difficult job situations, convex

:27:15.:27:16.

family environments, and it is just too hard to fight what seems to be

:27:17.:27:20.

an implacable system in so many parts of our country. The reality is

:27:21.:27:28.

that my right honourable friend's act has brought us on from those

:27:29.:27:32.

battles I was having, and the general population is becoming aware

:27:33.:27:36.

slowly of this invisible disability. The challenge is that it is

:27:37.:27:38.

invisible until it becomes visible through a crisis. Many of our great

:27:39.:27:43.

artists and scientists have been on the spectrum, men and women who see

:27:44.:27:47.

the world differently from those of us who are near

:27:48.:28:00.

-- neuro-typical, as my son calls me. He says it as an insult! The

:28:01.:28:08.

great Alan Turing's genius brought us the computer, possibly the

:28:09.:28:14.

greatest leap since the steam engine. He was shunned and

:28:15.:28:17.

misunderstood throughout his life. The damage society inflicted on him

:28:18.:28:23.

and a blatant disregard for his differencing character highlights

:28:24.:28:26.

what we must reverse 70 years on to ensure that knows child on the

:28:27.:28:29.

autistic spectrum is lost to us or our nation. Small changes to the

:28:30.:28:33.

school environment, support for families bringing up autistic

:28:34.:28:37.

children with day-to-day tasks that can reduce the stress is on them

:28:38.:28:41.

only to positive and thriving outcomes for these wonderful members

:28:42.:28:44.

of our communities, but most importantly, we had team of

:28:45.:28:48.

paediatric experts across every part of our country who can diagnose our

:28:49.:28:53.

children early on, and councillors in schools who are trained and

:28:54.:28:56.

flexible in supporting these children to fulfilling lives. I

:28:57.:29:00.

recently met with a family in my constituency with three boys, two

:29:01.:29:05.

for our diagnosed. I have in my county council are passionate

:29:06.:29:11.

advocate for all our special needs children, and it is very difficult

:29:12.:29:15.

for him to meet the needs of each and every autistic child, there is

:29:16.:29:19.

not enough flexibility for him to provide preventative and creative

:29:20.:29:22.

solutions for individual families which will provide practical

:29:23.:29:26.

support. If he can reduce the day-to-day pressures for parents

:29:27.:29:29.

with low-cost, early interventions, we will increase the chances of

:29:30.:29:33.

these families staying together. There are obvious long-term value

:29:34.:29:36.

for money arguments and investing in these families early on to stop

:29:37.:29:40.

long-term costs of the state of family breakdown of we fail these

:29:41.:29:44.

children and their families early. I call on our Government to encourage

:29:45.:29:48.

these families to be creative and forward-thinking in their support

:29:49.:29:52.

for our autistic children, that firstly by getting the speedy

:29:53.:29:57.

diagnosis that support can follow. It is a pleasure to follow that

:29:58.:30:01.

speech by the honourable lady, and I would like to add my congratulations

:30:02.:30:08.

to the right and buffer Chesham and Amersham -- The right honourable

:30:09.:30:13.

member. We have touched upon awareness and understanding, and I

:30:14.:30:16.

would like to focus my remarks on something that hasn't been

:30:17.:30:21.

mentioned, and that is acceptance. As honourable members have noted,

:30:22.:30:24.

the public awareness about autism has grown dramatically in recent

:30:25.:30:28.

years, aided by a proliferation of books, media articles and albeit not

:30:29.:30:32.

always accurate portrayals of people with autism on television and in

:30:33.:30:38.

film. This explosion of information about autism spectrum disorders and

:30:39.:30:43.

the Corporation of individuals with autism into everyday culture has

:30:44.:30:46.

helped familiarise people with the condition, and it is right that we

:30:47.:30:51.

celebrate that achievement. Essential as it is, awareness alone

:30:52.:30:53.

has not necessarily lead to a greater understanding of ASD or

:30:54.:30:59.

prevented the perpetuation of stereotypes and cliches as even a

:31:00.:31:04.

cursory Google search will attest. Awareness alone has not kept people

:31:05.:31:08.

with autism from being abused, has not helped them find jobs or

:31:09.:31:11.

supported them to live independently. We cannot overcome

:31:12.:31:19.

ignorance and help those with autism live independent lives by increasing

:31:20.:31:23.

awareness alone. I am lucky enough to have in my constituency a

:31:24.:31:26.

fantastic organisation called Greenwich Parent Voice. It is a

:31:27.:31:32.

group of exceptional parents, some of whom are in the calorie today,

:31:33.:31:37.

who came together to support each other and fight for their children,

:31:38.:31:39.

each of whom have special disabilities. They have not only

:31:40.:31:45.

helped deepen my understanding of ASD and the challenge faced by those

:31:46.:31:51.

with autism and their parents, but have over the course of many

:31:52.:31:54.

meetings made clear to me that what is really required is acceptance of

:31:55.:31:59.

autism. Anyone who has sat and listened to parents or carers of

:32:00.:32:03.

children with autism, or adults with autism for that matter even a short

:32:04.:32:06.

time will know that the system that we have in place at the moment,

:32:07.:32:09.

despite some recent improvements, still does not work. Whether it is

:32:10.:32:14.

problems in transferring from statements to health and care plans,

:32:15.:32:17.

the difficulties trying to secure specialist support in the care

:32:18.:32:21.

system, or the strain of supporting children with autism into adult

:32:22.:32:26.

hood, the system... I am happy to give way. He and others have been

:32:27.:32:33.

making very powerful speeches, but does he agree with me that we need

:32:34.:32:38.

also to translate that awareness into some very hard practical action

:32:39.:32:42.

in terms of service delivery, whether it is about education or

:32:43.:32:45.

housing, and he like other member is of Parliament here I'm sure have

:32:46.:32:49.

been dealing with parents of autistic children forced to share

:32:50.:32:56.

rooms, live in tower blocks, because housing policy does not reflect the

:32:57.:33:00.

needs of autistic children. So we do actually need to build on greater

:33:01.:33:04.

awareness, but also resource that into some practical action. I thank

:33:05.:33:09.

my honourable friend about intervention, she makes a very good

:33:10.:33:13.

point. I have dealt with allocations cases myself, and though does need

:33:14.:33:17.

to be some detailed policies put in place that are based on the

:33:18.:33:20.

recognition of the particular needs of autistic children and their

:33:21.:33:23.

families, because it does cause those families unimaginable stress

:33:24.:33:28.

and anxiety to navigate the system as it stands. Those with sharp

:33:29.:33:34.

elbows necessarily navigate that system, but they do so at great

:33:35.:33:38.

personal cost, and not everyone, as the honourable lady opposite said,

:33:39.:33:42.

has the ability to do that. The range of challenges faced by those

:33:43.:33:46.

with autism and their families is vast, and this isn't the debate to

:33:47.:33:51.

delve into any of those in detail in particular, but my sense is that our

:33:52.:33:54.

collective readiness to do something about the would be stronger if we

:33:55.:33:58.

were not only aware of autism and understood it, but if we were more

:33:59.:34:02.

accepting of it as a society. I suspect if we were more success in

:34:03.:34:09.

-- accepting, we would look at the lack of suitable childcare provision

:34:10.:34:12.

of autistic children, the fact that too many schools are still not

:34:13.:34:16.

autistic friendly and too many children are not getting the support

:34:17.:34:19.

they require. We would be compelled to more urgently address the

:34:20.:34:24.

prevalence of mental health conditions, and the isolation young

:34:25.:34:27.

people with autism to frequently face in school. We would be

:34:28.:34:31.

compelled to address the cliff edge in support that still faces autistic

:34:32.:34:36.

people into many parts of the country as they transition to adult

:34:37.:34:41.

hood, and we would be compelled to address the huge challenges that

:34:42.:34:46.

still face autistic adults in terms of diagnosis, employment and

:34:47.:34:50.

housing. I have no doubt that over time, these challenges will be

:34:51.:34:53.

overcome, not least because more and more people with autism and their

:34:54.:34:59.

families, like those who have helped establish Greenwich Parent Voice in

:35:00.:35:03.

my constituency, are advocating more strongly for themselves, but I

:35:04.:35:07.

believe that each of us in this chamber and in the wider country can

:35:08.:35:09.

hasten the process by working towards a society where most of a

:35:10.:35:13.

survey has said are not only aware of autism and understand it, but

:35:14.:35:18.

celebrate them and their contributions, not only as family

:35:19.:35:21.

members and friends, but as classmates, colleagues and members

:35:22.:35:28.

of our communities. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I also

:35:29.:35:31.

congratulate my right honourable friend the Chesham and Amersham not

:35:32.:35:36.

only on securing this debate but securing the excellent worksheet

:35:37.:35:38.

does is chairman of the all-party group, and also for her wonderful

:35:39.:35:43.

work piloting the autism act through this House, which was a

:35:44.:35:48.

ground-breaking piece of legislation, and which has done a

:35:49.:35:51.

tremendous amount to improve the lot of adults with autism in England. I

:35:52.:35:59.

must say in passing it is a matter of concern to me that that

:36:00.:36:02.

legislation has not been followed in Wales, but the good news is that all

:36:03.:36:05.

parties in the current Welsh Assembly elections apart from the

:36:06.:36:08.

Labour Party sadly have committed to a Welsh autism Bill, and it is hoped

:36:09.:36:14.

that the Welsh Labour Party will work with their colleagues.

:36:15.:36:18.

Notwithstanding the passing of the act in 2009, there is still much

:36:19.:36:23.

work to be done to ensure that people with autism and their

:36:24.:36:26.

families receive the support that they need, but also crucially that

:36:27.:36:31.

understanding of the condition continues to develop. We must

:36:32.:36:35.

remember that autism is a condition was not formally recognised until

:36:36.:36:41.

the late 1940s, and serious research on it didn't begin in earnest until

:36:42.:36:48.

the 1960s. So in 1970, an American study concluded that one child in

:36:49.:36:55.

14,000 was autistic. More recent US studies have shown that one child in

:36:56.:37:02.

68 has some form of autism. And interestingly, a very recent study

:37:03.:37:12.

in Korea, a study of school tranche of the population, concluded that

:37:13.:37:16.

one child in 38 between the age of seven and 12 had some degree of

:37:17.:37:20.

autism. It is therefore becoming increasingly clear that this is a

:37:21.:37:23.

condition that is far more prevalent than any of us expected. My right

:37:24.:37:30.

honourable friend mentioned that in the United Kingdom, estimates are

:37:31.:37:38.

that some 700,000 people are affected by autism, approximately 1%

:37:39.:37:42.

of the population, and this has an economic as well as human cost. A

:37:43.:37:48.

study by the LSE in 2014 estimated the cost of autism to the British

:37:49.:37:53.

economy at approximately ?32.1 billion. Put that into perspective,

:37:54.:37:59.

estimates of the cost of cancer are around ?12 billion per annum, heart

:38:00.:38:03.

disease ?8 billion, stroke ?5 billion, so the economic cost of

:38:04.:38:10.

autism is a very significant indeed. And if we had greater awareness and

:38:11.:38:12.

more understanding of the condition, more of us wrap might realise as

:38:13.:38:16.

other honourable members have pointed out that people with autism

:38:17.:38:19.

are a very much underutilised resource. The article that the

:38:20.:38:27.

honourable member for North Norfolk mentioned from the Economist, that

:38:28.:38:35.

people with autism frequently have a high-level focus, meaning they can

:38:36.:38:38.

spot patterns and errors in data that are not readily recognised by

:38:39.:38:42.

other people, making them attractive employees for software firms. And

:38:43.:38:48.

even people more significantly affected by autism can also hold

:38:49.:38:51.

down jobs successfully. They often benefit from working in a highly

:38:52.:38:55.

structured working environment, sometimes thriving on jobs of a

:38:56.:39:01.

repetitive nature. And what really is necessary is for employers to

:39:02.:39:05.

realise that that resource can be tapped, and that means frequently

:39:06.:39:08.

creating the right conditions in which people with autism can work.

:39:09.:39:14.

For example, employers must understand the need for people with

:39:15.:39:20.

autism to receive clear instruction, and my right honourable friend

:39:21.:39:23.

mentioned the excellent NAS video, too much information, which shows a

:39:24.:39:28.

boy with autism being overcome by the general sounds that one

:39:29.:39:32.

experiences in a shopping centre. Employers should start to realise

:39:33.:39:36.

that people with autism may benefit from quieter working conditions, the

:39:37.:39:41.

sound of a telephone or chatter around people with autism can prove

:39:42.:39:44.

distracting to the extent of being unendurable. More therefore needs to

:39:45.:39:50.

be done to improve the understanding of this condition. Since 2014, the

:39:51.:39:57.

Government has spent some ?325,000 on limited awareness work, and that

:39:58.:40:02.

is really a very small sum indeed. A lot more needs to be done. A lack of

:40:03.:40:08.

understanding on the part of employers and potential colleagues

:40:09.:40:14.

is a key barrier for autistic citizens to finding employment and

:40:15.:40:18.

staying in, and the DWP have set up a joint unit to support people with

:40:19.:40:22.

autism to find and stay in work whilst also improving their health.

:40:23.:40:27.

These are important initiatives. But more needs to be done, and may I say

:40:28.:40:32.

finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, more work must be done in attempting to

:40:33.:40:37.

identify the causes of autism. They are still not well understood.

:40:38.:40:40.

Research on twins indicates that genetic conditions may be a cause,

:40:41.:40:45.

but there are also suggestions that there may be environmental causes

:40:46.:40:49.

such as for example exposure prenatally to viruses, to air

:40:50.:40:57.

pollution. Continued research is essential, but currently, the United

:40:58.:41:00.

Kingdom spends just ?4 million per annum on autism research, as

:41:01.:41:08.

compared to ?590 million on Cancer, ?139 million on heart disease and

:41:09.:41:12.

?32 million on stroke. We must do more.

:41:13.:41:18.

It gives us an opportunity to reflect on a far more widespread

:41:19.:41:23.

condition than was previously thought and to do more in our power

:41:24.:41:31.

to address it. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I would

:41:32.:41:33.

like to add my voice of congratulations to the right

:41:34.:41:38.

honourable member for calling the debate and for what they have done

:41:39.:41:45.

over the years to raise awareness. It is a pleasure to follow powerful

:41:46.:41:48.

speeches across the chamber and I would like to comment on the

:41:49.:41:53.

previous one. Autism is a spectrum disorder, meaning there is degree of

:41:54.:41:58.

variation in the way it affects people. Every child or adult on that

:41:59.:42:03.

spectrum has unique abilities, symptoms and varying challenges.

:42:04.:42:09.

Some of the many challenges faced by people on the autism spectrum

:42:10.:42:13.

disorder may include difficulty understanding other people's

:42:14.:42:17.

feelings, reactions and non-verbal cues. Difficulty recognising

:42:18.:42:21.

people's faces, and understanding their facial expressions. Children

:42:22.:42:28.

and adults with autism spectrum disorders may have difficulty

:42:29.:42:31.

regulating their emotions or expressing them appropriately. For

:42:32.:42:34.

instance, they make start to cry or laugh hysterically for no apparent

:42:35.:42:42.

reason. When stressed, they may seem disruptive or aggressive, breaking

:42:43.:42:45.

things, heating others and harming themselves. The condition itself can

:42:46.:42:52.

be isolating enough without society reinforcing it through other ring

:42:53.:42:55.

and stigmatise of people with autism. Society can serve them more

:42:56.:43:03.

fully than any condition. These behaviours can make it difficult for

:43:04.:43:07.

these people and their families to take part in social events, everyday

:43:08.:43:12.

tasks such as shopping or accessing public transport, fight described by

:43:13.:43:17.

my honourable friend. The pressure of dealing with these situations can

:43:18.:43:21.

be overwhelming for people and their families. As has been discussed,

:43:22.:43:26.

often families will choose to exclude themselves from everyday

:43:27.:43:30.

life in their communities rather than put up with staring and

:43:31.:43:36.

whispered comments. Autism is such a poorly understood condition, even in

:43:37.:43:40.

some cases by health professionals that children on the spectrum are

:43:41.:43:43.

often seen as a naughty or badly parented. It is widely acknowledged

:43:44.:43:49.

that early diagnosis and therapy at critical to improving people on the

:43:50.:43:55.

autistic spectrum overcoming develop mental delays. However, we want to

:43:56.:44:01.

diagnose this is too often difficult and time-consuming and requires

:44:02.:44:05.

parents to have two fight for diagnosis in order to access

:44:06.:44:07.

appropriate services and this puts an added burden of stress on sleep

:44:08.:44:12.

deprived and struggling families, already coping with pressures and

:44:13.:44:18.

challenges of family life. On average, adults have to wait two

:44:19.:44:21.

years for diagnosis and children have to wait over three and a half

:44:22.:44:30.

years. That is despite the National Institutes of Health and care

:44:31.:44:33.

excellence guidelines saying the wait for diagnosis should be around

:44:34.:44:36.

three months. Some children and their families have to wait more

:44:37.:44:38.

than ten times the recommended period. We are failing at these

:44:39.:44:44.

families and their children. The little talked about in sequence

:44:45.:44:48.

families struggling with challenging and in usual behaviours is the

:44:49.:44:51.

impact that can have on siblings and family life. A mother of a child on

:44:52.:44:57.

the autistic spectrum in my constituency who I spoke to recently

:44:58.:45:00.

explained that if her son was struggling to deal with a birthday

:45:01.:45:03.

party, a noisy Macdonald 's or a busy shopping centre, it meant the

:45:04.:45:10.

whole family had to leave. We must aim to improve the structural

:45:11.:45:14.

process and outcomes of care for these children and their families.

:45:15.:45:19.

Autism teams conducting assessment for children, young people or adults

:45:20.:45:23.

and should be specialist integrated autism teams, with access to speech

:45:24.:45:28.

and language therapists, occupational therapists and clinical

:45:29.:45:32.

and educational psychologists. Systematic assessments for

:45:33.:45:35.

conditions that coexist alongside autism should be part of the

:45:36.:45:39.

diagnostic pathway as required by the autism act of 2009. That is

:45:40.:45:45.

particularly important, because, and it has been touched on before,

:45:46.:45:48.

people with autism may have coexisting physical health

:45:49.:45:53.

conditions and mental health problems that if unrecognised and

:45:54.:45:57.

untreated, will further impair their social functioning and it places

:45:58.:46:00.

additional pressure on families and carers. The cause of social comedic

:46:01.:46:04.

Asian difficulties, some people with autism may find it particularly

:46:05.:46:10.

difficult to communicate their needs and access mainstream health and

:46:11.:46:15.

social care services. People with autism should have a personalised

:46:16.:46:19.

plan that is developed and implemented in partnership between

:46:20.:46:22.

them, their family and carers if appropriate and at the autism team.

:46:23.:46:28.

Let me finish by saying that people on the autistic spectrum are unique,

:46:29.:46:30.

sensitive and often highly intelligent individuals who

:46:31.:46:36.

desperately want to be part of the local and wider community, with more

:46:37.:46:39.

support and understanding, this is achievable. We can and must do

:46:40.:46:44.

better to secure better outcomes for adults and children with autism.

:46:45.:46:49.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think it has become the thing in

:46:50.:46:56.

this debate congratulate my right honourable friend. But I'm delighted

:46:57.:47:01.

to do so for initiating this debate and for the excellent debate that

:47:02.:47:09.

was outlined by my other right honourable friend over the autism

:47:10.:47:11.

like that all the work she has done with them for taking this forward. I

:47:12.:47:20.

became aware of autism through a lot of activity in my own constituency.

:47:21.:47:25.

Toward the north of vehicles to choose it, I have a big autism unit

:47:26.:47:32.

around the town and village. We have facilities in the hall in the north

:47:33.:47:35.

of the constituency which is a marvellous place to go to, and if

:47:36.:47:41.

you go there, the organised chaos that is there is absolutely

:47:42.:47:45.

wonderful to see. And it is a great privilege to be part of that and to

:47:46.:47:51.

see the enormous efforts that are made by the staff there to look

:47:52.:47:55.

after people with autism. In the south of the constituency we have

:47:56.:48:00.

the work of Dame Stephanie Sherman and others in that part of vehicles

:48:01.:48:06.

to choose it. But I'd like to start first by paying tribute to a

:48:07.:48:11.

particular charity my own constituency called Music For Waters

:48:12.:48:15.

And. They have spotted there is a link between music and autism. This

:48:16.:48:21.

is organised by the Orchestra of Saint John, many of whose members

:48:22.:48:27.

spend hours of their time freely given going into schools and other

:48:28.:48:30.

places and working with children with autism in order to show both

:48:31.:48:36.

the calming effect of music on them and the enormous ability that it

:48:37.:48:42.

gives to be able to take them forward to the next stage of

:48:43.:48:47.

development. And I really would pay tribute to them for doing that.

:48:48.:48:52.

There were two points that I wanted to make in this debate and break

:48:53.:48:57.

out, then there are points I know have already been made by other

:48:58.:49:00.

speakers, but I think it is worth reflecting on them and making the

:49:01.:49:04.

points gained. The first is around diagnosis. I think the difficulty

:49:05.:49:11.

for late diagnosis is not knowing the situation and the advantage of

:49:12.:49:19.

having an early diagnosis is being better able to understand, how

:49:20.:49:27.

behaviour, and how the role of partners can influence the way in

:49:28.:49:32.

which we look at the people that have the diagnosis. That comes from

:49:33.:49:38.

people I have met in the constituency. From a couple I met in

:49:39.:49:44.

a cafe in Henley, who told me about their problems and the difficulties

:49:45.:49:51.

they had had with late diagnosis. Because as we've heard, some are

:49:52.:49:55.

able to lead pretty ordinary lives, managing the condition extremely

:49:56.:50:02.

well. And I've met several over the years and indeed a young man at the

:50:03.:50:06.

last Conservative Party conference that was able to demonstrate this.

:50:07.:50:15.

But while I agree with the honourable member for Greenwich and

:50:16.:50:18.

Woolwich, that public recognition of this is not the be all and end all

:50:19.:50:22.

of the needs, it is certainly a good starting point. In order to help

:50:23.:50:29.

people to live fulfilled lives that they need, we do need public

:50:30.:50:40.

recognition of the illness. The need for an early diagnosis is absolutely

:50:41.:50:46.

crucial. And I would urge the clinical commissioning groups and

:50:47.:50:50.

NHS England to bring down the waiting times in a liner and work

:50:51.:50:56.

with many different stakeholders to create a more responsive environment

:50:57.:51:02.

and support. Those were the words suggested to me to describe the

:51:03.:51:06.

situation and I think they do it extremely well. And a great element

:51:07.:51:12.

of this which has only just been touched on has been the care and

:51:13.:51:19.

management of adults and their involvement -- the involvement of

:51:20.:51:23.

health and social care in this. And I think one of it is a broader

:51:24.:51:28.

point, it is a good example of why we rapidly need the integration of

:51:29.:51:32.

health and social care with the NHS. It is much better that all these

:51:33.:51:38.

facilities are all under one roof rather than having to deal... Of

:51:39.:51:45.

course. Would he recognised that in Northern Ireland, health and social

:51:46.:51:50.

services are in the one body? Therefore, it is much easier to have

:51:51.:51:54.

that integrated approach. However, we still need integration and

:51:55.:51:58.

incorporation of other organisations and agencies by the Department for

:51:59.:52:01.

Education and other groups will stop while, I think the honourable

:52:02.:52:06.

gentleman makes a valid point and we do need that level of integration.

:52:07.:52:12.

It is essential that we do. We need to start by integrating the medical

:52:13.:52:18.

activities of the NHS with social worker within the community, because

:52:19.:52:22.

until they are under one roof, we will not have the ability to be able

:52:23.:52:25.

to deal with these problems in the way we would all like and away would

:52:26.:52:30.

be -- that will be the most effective for people who suffer from

:52:31.:52:36.

this condition. And the second point that I was going to make what about

:52:37.:52:41.

education. And I do so from the point of view of having a wife who

:52:42.:52:47.

for many years taught a young man with autism and struggled through

:52:48.:52:55.

with providing that sort of assistance to him. It has been

:52:56.:53:05.

remarkably successful in the way she's been able to do that. But that

:53:06.:53:11.

was done on a private basis and the vast majority of children with

:53:12.:53:16.

autism, over 70%, are in mainstream education. And it is there we need

:53:17.:53:19.

to focus our attention. We must focus our attention is on being able

:53:20.:53:23.

to include in the teacher training programme enough information on

:53:24.:53:28.

autism that teachers feel empowered to be able to recognise it and deal

:53:29.:53:33.

with it effectively. And I think if we can do that, we will have a much

:53:34.:53:37.

better chance of purposefully dealing with those that have autism.

:53:38.:53:45.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I've done it already, but I will

:53:46.:53:52.

again, because everybody is, I will congratulate the right honourable

:53:53.:53:55.

member for Chesham and Amersham for her leadership on this. I suppose

:53:56.:54:00.

what she has been involved in, but what they are all involved with, is

:54:01.:54:06.

learning as a society about understanding autism are much better

:54:07.:54:11.

and recognising that we fail people so badly with our ignorance as a

:54:12.:54:19.

society about the potential comedy capacity of people to lead

:54:20.:54:21.

fulfilling lives and to contribute massively to society. The honourable

:54:22.:54:28.

member and a right honourable member over their strongly made at this

:54:29.:54:34.

point that there are is so much that people with autism can do in the

:54:35.:54:40.

employment sphere, they can be fantastic employees, can contribute

:54:41.:54:42.

much a lead fulfilling lives, but we fail at them and of course it costs

:54:43.:54:49.

the economy so much and it costs the Government so much because people

:54:50.:54:52.

end up dependent on the state, because we have failed to provide

:54:53.:54:56.

them with the support early on. That is the big challenge. I will give

:54:57.:55:01.

way. I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way. We've just

:55:02.:55:05.

been joined on the front bench by my honourable friend from Swindon

:55:06.:55:09.

South, who was my predecessor. I would like to pay tribute to his

:55:10.:55:13.

work. But I would stress that drinking in the autism Act and this

:55:14.:55:18.

debate today, I wasn't supported across party and across this House

:55:19.:55:24.

by many members, it was not me alone, but a team effort. That

:55:25.:55:31.

brings me nicely to my next point. This is no one Government's

:55:32.:55:34.

responsibility, we must all learn of this. What I would say is that as we

:55:35.:55:40.

learn and understand more, and the Economist asked that we make a

:55:41.:55:47.

stronger economic case, that if you invest in diagnosis and early

:55:48.:55:50.

intervention you save a fortune in lifetime care. So as we learn, the

:55:51.:55:55.

Government must respond, that is the challenge for Government and this

:55:56.:55:59.

Government, because they are here now and there is learning that we've

:56:00.:56:04.

achieved that we can gain improvements from, the Government

:56:05.:56:08.

has a responsibility, I think, to respond. I will give way very

:56:09.:56:13.

quickly. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would he agree with me that

:56:14.:56:18.

in the light debriefing, it said the Government does not collect aid

:56:19.:56:22.

specifically on unemployment rates for people with autistic spectrum

:56:23.:56:25.

conditions, and that's something we should campaign across parties

:56:26.:56:28.

change and also work with business dad practices for interviews that

:56:29.:56:32.

are friendly to those on the autistic spectrum? Well, I totally

:56:33.:56:39.

agree. As a former minister, during my time in the department, I totally

:56:40.:56:44.

recognise that whether it was mental health, autism or learning

:56:45.:56:48.

disability, you operate in a fog. There is an absence of data that is

:56:49.:56:54.

analysed and understood, and if we are to make the improvements that we

:56:55.:56:57.

are capable of, we have to understand the evidence and that

:56:58.:57:00.

involves the collection of data. So I agree with the points that she

:57:01.:57:02.

makes. I just want to highlight the

:57:03.:57:10.

failures of society and the extent to which we treat people with autism

:57:11.:57:13.

as second class citizens by referring to cases. The first case

:57:14.:57:20.

is one that has been much documented recently, the case of Conor

:57:21.:57:24.

sparrowhawk, who tragically lost his life through drowning back in July

:57:25.:57:35.

20 13. His mother, Sarah Ryan, has been amazing campaign to fight for

:57:36.:57:39.

justice, that the Oxford mail reports this morning that there is a

:57:40.:57:46.

report that has recently been leaked which demonstrates that, some 11

:57:47.:57:57.

months before, lost his life, -- before Connor lost his life, there

:57:58.:58:02.

had been a report on failure of care in this very health trust, flagging

:58:03.:58:08.

up issues with a lack of clarity of care, care plans, no clear

:58:09.:58:13.

understanding of the locked door policy and so on. What is the point

:58:14.:58:20.

of commissioning reports at enormous expense if their conclusions and

:58:21.:58:23.

recommendations are then ignored? This week there has been a great

:58:24.:58:27.

focus on the importance of accountability of public bodies,

:58:28.:58:30.

with the shocking conclusion of the inquest into the tragedy at

:58:31.:58:37.

Hillsborough. But the importance of accountability stretches across all

:58:38.:58:40.

public bodies, and stretches into health care. And it is really

:58:41.:58:44.

important for organisations to recognise that they have a

:58:45.:58:49.

responsibility to the families of those who lose their lives, to

:58:50.:58:55.

involve them in the investigation, to have an open and learning culture

:58:56.:59:00.

rather than a closed culture which excludes families. The way in which

:59:01.:59:04.

Sara Ryan has been treated by the trust is truly shocking. In the

:59:05.:59:11.

investigation of this death. And there has to be accountability, and

:59:12.:59:15.

a willingness to learn from the mistakes and actually take account

:59:16.:59:17.

of the recommendations that are made. I just want to make a point.

:59:18.:59:24.

As we try to get people out of assessment and treatment centres,

:59:25.:59:27.

who in very many cases are left there for too long, the health and

:59:28.:59:32.

safety due social care and information Centre has found that

:59:33.:59:38.

15% of the transforming care cohort which the Minister will be whereof

:59:39.:59:41.

have autism, with no learning disability. 23% have autism with a

:59:42.:59:48.

learning disability. I just asked the Minister, will the department

:59:49.:59:51.

ensure that in looking at the transforming care partnership plans,

:59:52.:59:55.

and the outcomes for individuals, that we make sure that the specific

:59:56.:00:00.

needs of autistic people are included and addressed. That is in

:00:01.:00:05.

my view really important. I just wanted finally to refer to the case

:00:06.:00:12.

of an extraordinary constituent of mine, a nine-year-old boy who wrote

:00:13.:00:18.

a letter for his parents to take to a meeting that I had on his behalf

:00:19.:00:22.

with the authorities at Norfolk County Council. It ended up with him

:00:23.:00:29.

being interviewed on the Today programme, and it was a remarkable

:00:30.:00:34.

interview, but he talked and wrote very movingly in this letter, he

:00:35.:00:41.

said, I normally say to myself, you have to keep on going, and I

:00:42.:00:46.

normally say, is it worth it? I could just kill myself. I wouldn't

:00:47.:00:52.

have to face today. This is a nine-year old boy. And yet this

:00:53.:00:57.

family has been waiting two years for a diagnosis without any real

:00:58.:01:01.

support in the meantime. They are told that he doesn't meet the

:01:02.:01:08.

threshold for care within the children's mental health service,

:01:09.:01:21.

Cahm, and this family, through borrowing from other relatives, have

:01:22.:01:26.

managed to raise support for this boy, but what about all those

:01:27.:01:31.

families who can't afford it? This is intolerable, and we cannot

:01:32.:01:34.

justify a society where you get help if you have got articular parents,

:01:35.:01:40.

if you have parents with money, but those without go without. So my plea

:01:41.:01:47.

to the Minister, as we seek to implement maximum waiting time

:01:48.:01:54.

standards that we include autism, and we follow the Nice guidelines,

:01:55.:02:01.

but the first diagnostic assessment should start no later than three

:02:02.:02:06.

months after referral by the GP, not 36 months as I am told is sometimes

:02:07.:02:11.

the case in Norfolk, or 24 months and many other parts of the country.

:02:12.:02:15.

Three months. And the answer is this. As a society, and for the

:02:16.:02:21.

Government, we will save money in the long run if we make the

:02:22.:02:25.

investment in diagnosis and treatment at a very early stage. It

:02:26.:02:34.

is a pleasure to follow the speech of the honourable gentleman for

:02:35.:02:37.

Norfolk, and I think he makes the point on the need for early

:02:38.:02:41.

diagnosis more powerfully than I possibly could, but it is certainly

:02:42.:02:46.

one that I support. And I want to join in the congratulations for my

:02:47.:02:48.

right honourable friend from Chesham and Amersham and all the others in

:02:49.:02:53.

securing the autism act, it was the beginning of a journey that we can

:02:54.:02:58.

continue with today's debate. I also want to echo the concerns that were

:02:59.:03:03.

powerfully raised by colleagues from Argyll and Bute, and Bury St

:03:04.:03:10.

Edmunds, about the risks of social isolation, and I want to point

:03:11.:03:16.

towards organisations in my constituency that have taken strides

:03:17.:03:26.

to reduce that isolation. An organisation in my constituency

:03:27.:03:30.

provides a place for people with autism to come together and

:03:31.:03:35.

socialise. It has been inspirational, and also, Aspi, the

:03:36.:03:44.

charity mentioned earlier, which was set up by a constituent of mine on

:03:45.:03:49.

the autistic spectrum, Sarah MacColl right, who tragically died, aged

:03:50.:04:00.

only 38 two years ago next week. But she has left a remarkable legacy in

:04:01.:04:04.

Worcester of a house which was bought by her parents for the

:04:05.:04:08.

community where people on the spectrum can come together,

:04:09.:04:12.

socialise, share ideas, and where I have been privileged to come to

:04:13.:04:25.

meet people and been teased my neuro-typical behaviour and my in

:04:26.:04:29.

accurate cake cutting their birthdays! But it has inspired

:04:30.:04:36.

in themselves and their capacity to in themselves and their capacity to

:04:37.:04:39.

work and create businesses the people on the spectrum. Many other

:04:40.:04:44.

members have made the point powerfully about the talents of

:04:45.:04:47.

people on the spectrum, and they need to unleash those. We heard

:04:48.:04:51.

about the evidence in the Economist article. I want to pay tribute to

:04:52.:05:04.

the organisation called Wits End Wizardry, which has discovered that

:05:05.:05:14.

the skills of people on the autistic spectrum can be utilised when giving

:05:15.:05:21.

them support, and I believe that they have done some important work

:05:22.:05:30.

for various organisations, and it shows the contribution the people on

:05:31.:05:36.

the spectrum can make. Wood boyfriend agree that using these

:05:37.:05:40.

great talents, this concentration to see across different ways, in the

:05:41.:05:50.

north-east, there is a group called Business Works, taking on those with

:05:51.:06:00.

business Ph.D. Is to challenge others. I pay tribute to my

:06:01.:06:05.

honourable friend's fantastic speech earlier, and she is onto something

:06:06.:06:08.

here, we are seeing this in the north-east and Midlands where our

:06:09.:06:11.

increasing cyber security cluster are looking to take on more people

:06:12.:06:15.

with autism. We heard earlier about the incredible contribution of

:06:16.:06:23.

Bletchley park and many people who were probably on the spectrum who

:06:24.:06:27.

contributed to that work. In cyber security today, I see businesses

:06:28.:06:32.

like the one in Worcester going out to recruit people with autism, and I

:06:33.:06:37.

want to see more businesses making that effort and creating the

:06:38.:06:41.

opportunities for people. You do need to do things a bit differently,

:06:42.:06:47.

you can't just invite people into interview, because the whole process

:06:48.:06:50.

of interview is set up to work with neuro-typical people. You need to

:06:51.:06:56.

create an autism friendly job application process in order to make

:06:57.:07:00.

sure that you are making the most of the talents of those people, and I

:07:01.:07:04.

pay tribute to those businesses that are making the effort to do that. I

:07:05.:07:09.

recently held a disability confident jobs fair in Worcester, and I was

:07:10.:07:15.

very impressed to see major employers recruiting and saying, one

:07:16.:07:18.

of their people representing them in their recruitment, was somebody who

:07:19.:07:24.

I had previously met Aspi who is on the autistic spectrum, and I would

:07:25.:07:27.

like to pay tribute to Justin McEwan who will be running the Worcester

:07:28.:07:37.

ten K in support of Aspi. I would like to say we have many programmes

:07:38.:07:41.

the Government to help people into work, we talk about halving the

:07:42.:07:45.

disability gap, and autism is a area we should be hitting onto. There are

:07:46.:07:53.

many aspects of the apprenticeships programme which can be tailored to

:07:54.:07:58.

support people with autism. I know the Minister the skills are answered

:07:59.:08:02.

a question about this, and I'm delighted to hear that he is engaged

:08:03.:08:11.

in the round tables, making sure we can tailor programmes within the the

:08:12.:08:15.

apprenticeship programme to suit more people on the spectrum. There

:08:16.:08:19.

is much more work to be done on this, and I would like this A that I

:08:20.:08:26.

am wearing to stand for aspiration and achievement as well as autism.

:08:27.:08:36.

The Speaker: There are a great many people still wishing to speak, so I

:08:37.:08:40.

will have to reduce the time to five minute. I will try to reduce mind

:08:41.:08:47.

below five minutes to try to give others a chance to speak in what has

:08:48.:08:52.

been an excellent debate so far. Really erudite and abuse in is. I

:08:53.:08:58.

just want to make two main points. -- erudite contributions. The first

:08:59.:09:04.

is on understanding the scale of this problem. People have talked at

:09:05.:09:08.

length and given some excellent examples on this, but I want to

:09:09.:09:14.

develop the issue of the sense that actually we are still far from

:09:15.:09:20.

seeing the true scale of the autism problem in our country, partly

:09:21.:09:26.

through the growing yet still insufficient recognition among

:09:27.:09:31.

individuals in the community, but also, an area that I hope the

:09:32.:09:40.

Minister will take up. In the number of really worrying ways in which

:09:41.:09:44.

perhaps the true extent of the lack of capacity in local services is

:09:45.:09:50.

being hidden at the moment, and the way that the extent to which people

:09:51.:09:58.

are being denied is also being masked. The honourable member for

:09:59.:10:07.

Glasgow East was talking about the long length of time of referrals,

:10:08.:10:12.

way beyond the recommended limits, I believe, in Cumbria, my county, it

:10:13.:10:19.

is even longer than the average, showing the problems. But I wanted

:10:20.:10:22.

to just relate some of the particular concerns that parents of

:10:23.:10:30.

autistic children consistently raise in the local support group they have

:10:31.:10:35.

in talking with charities and directly with me, which suggests

:10:36.:10:41.

that actually even the knowledge level of deficiency of the service

:10:42.:10:46.

is not quite, does not reflect the true picture. One of them is an

:10:47.:10:54.

contact being ignored, and how difficult it can be to get service

:10:55.:10:57.

practitioners even to pick-up the phone, which would be something

:10:58.:11:02.

which has not probably been documented, but you can't actually,

:11:03.:11:06.

if you can't get on even the waiting list to be seen, or you are not

:11:07.:11:12.

acknowledged because your contact is not being acknowledged, then the

:11:13.:11:18.

problem is even bigger than is stated, and the other thing, and

:11:19.:11:25.

this is particularly worrying, is a strong sense from parents that they

:11:26.:11:30.

will have people tell them orally that the service is not sufficient

:11:31.:11:37.

for them, but will refuse to put it in writing in a way which then could

:11:38.:11:40.

allow them to escalate it through the system. And I would like the

:11:41.:11:45.

Minister if possible to reflect on that, and to say whether he believes

:11:46.:11:49.

that is a genuine problem or a wider problem.

:11:50.:11:56.

The second point is my pride that my constituency contributing to the

:11:57.:12:08.

wider awareness today. Firstly, the A Word, which is filmed in the north

:12:09.:12:12.

of my constituency, as you will see from the programme, which is a

:12:13.:12:17.

fabulous place to go. I commend all involved in a programme for doing a

:12:18.:12:21.

really important work in a mainstream, prime-time BBC programme

:12:22.:12:25.

that is getting the message out in an effective way. And the second,

:12:26.:12:30.

and I have delayed my congratulations to the honourable

:12:31.:12:37.

member to thank the way she has engaged with my constituent, Deborah

:12:38.:12:42.

Brownson who has produced an excellent children's guide to autism

:12:43.:12:47.

called He Is Not Naughty which she's tried to get into every school. I

:12:48.:12:54.

want to ban the mayor of Barrow who was financially facilitated just

:12:55.:12:58.

yesterday getting it all in the borough. The Minister is asking for

:12:59.:13:07.

a personal copy and I will be delighted to do that and anybody in

:13:08.:13:10.

this debate who can contribute to her financial drive to get this

:13:11.:13:15.

illustrated book to other schools, all we need is the postage and

:13:16.:13:20.

printing costs, it is a really excellent illustrated guide that

:13:21.:13:26.

will explain to children just what is going on in the minds of autistic

:13:27.:13:38.

children. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would also like to add my

:13:39.:13:44.

congratulations to the member for Chesham and Amersham and fall the

:13:45.:13:48.

team -- things she talked about earlier. Over the short time I've

:13:49.:13:53.

been in this place I've had numerous families come to my surgery

:13:54.:13:58.

despairing about the time it has taken to get an autism diagnosis for

:13:59.:14:04.

their child. The diagnosis for those individual parents and their friends

:14:05.:14:08.

and family is obvious. But without that, these children are trapped.

:14:09.:14:14.

One of very moving case recently involved a seven-year-old boy, who

:14:15.:14:19.

almost to years ago was referred to the paediatrician and his first

:14:20.:14:23.

appointment in nine months to materialise when he was diagnosed

:14:24.:14:27.

with ADHD. In January this year, it was referred for a communication

:14:28.:14:30.

assessment and in March, his parents received the letter saying there

:14:31.:14:34.

would be a further seven-month delay to access this assessment. This

:14:35.:14:40.

little boy, due to his behaviour, is excluded from school more time than

:14:41.:14:47.

he is at school. I'm sure my honourable friend can relate to

:14:48.:14:51.

that. They tried to support him at his school, and they have a duty of

:14:52.:14:54.

care to the children of course. He is about to move from infant to

:14:55.:14:58.

junior school than that in itself is causing the problem. Schoolteachers

:14:59.:15:02.

-- be school he should be going too has refused to take it because they

:15:03.:15:07.

can't cope with his behaviour. Until he receives that autism diagnosis,

:15:08.:15:10.

he is unable to access a special needs school, so it is a Catch-22.

:15:11.:15:16.

As he is just one of an above cases I could highlight, I'm sure there

:15:17.:15:23.

are other cases across the chamber today. In fact, last July, to help,

:15:24.:15:29.

I wrote to the health list to highlight about an acceptable

:15:30.:15:33.

delays. I got a comprehensive response, but sadly, nine months on,

:15:34.:15:37.

nothing seems to have changed in Derbyshire and I'm getting the same

:15:38.:15:43.

messages from the community paediatrician and that they are

:15:44.:15:48.

looking to implement new pathways. That's the message I'm getting time

:15:49.:15:52.

and time again and I know that's what we're doing, the pathways and

:15:53.:15:59.

the services on offer by Chile determined locally, but today, I

:16:00.:16:02.

want to call the Minister to do whatever he can to ensure the

:16:03.:16:06.

children across the whole of Derbyshire, as my honourable friend

:16:07.:16:13.

has also highlighted, that they get a timely diagnosis for the autism

:16:14.:16:20.

spectrum disorder. In advance of this debate, I've been contacted by

:16:21.:16:24.

a number of constituents. One particular parents care of a young

:16:25.:16:27.

man with autism asked me to relate her story. She movingly described

:16:28.:16:33.

how repeatedly being requested to prove he is autistic and fill out

:16:34.:16:37.

form after former really makes her so's behaviour, and I quote, go

:16:38.:16:43.

through the roof. She says her son's autism is very complex and she has

:16:44.:16:47.

to speak to him in a certain way, explaining the meaning of words. It

:16:48.:16:51.

is important, because it can lead to violence if the wrong word is used.

:16:52.:16:55.

And that his violence against her. She says that also the tone of her

:16:56.:17:01.

voice and body language are most -- of the utmost importance and she

:17:02.:17:05.

says please stop and think, not everyone can be the same. We need

:17:06.:17:09.

understanding as well as policies that help and we feel at the moment,

:17:10.:17:14.

the policies are devastating our lives. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, and

:17:15.:17:21.

I think I've been able to use my time quite well, the National

:17:22.:17:26.

autistic six aside to report, Too Much Information is aimed at

:17:27.:17:31.

improving understanding of autism. But it is not just members of the

:17:32.:17:36.

public who need a better understanding of autism, but also

:17:37.:17:41.

those who should be supporting these vulnerable children and young adults

:17:42.:17:46.

who need to be more aware of the consequences of not providing the

:17:47.:17:48.

right support at the right time. Thank you. There are three areas I

:17:49.:17:56.

want to touch on today, diagnose waiting times and public awareness.

:17:57.:18:03.

We have heard already this afternoon that the time that people are

:18:04.:18:08.

waiting for a diagnosis is an acceptable and is certainly

:18:09.:18:10.

reflected in the correspondence from I constituents on this matter. One

:18:11.:18:15.

had to wait almost five years for her son's diagnosis and she told me

:18:16.:18:21.

that she was told us was a very complex and were professionals

:18:22.:18:24.

recognised his traits, you did not fit neatly into one diagnosis box.

:18:25.:18:29.

That is because every autistic person is unique and different.

:18:30.:18:34.

Another constituent who lives in Lancaster described to me that she

:18:35.:18:42.

had autism and was diagnosed aged 44 after a lifetime of struggle. Access

:18:43.:18:45.

to diagnosis opens up that support network that is out there to support

:18:46.:18:49.

people, so will the Minister and assure that the NHS England's new

:18:50.:18:53.

autism care pathway includes and reduces diagnosis waiting times?

:18:54.:19:00.

I've been privileged to work closely with the local National Autistic

:19:01.:19:03.

Society group in my constituency, chaired by Jill manner and it was

:19:04.:19:08.

clear early on that one of the big issues facing the group was access

:19:09.:19:11.

to an employment and with only 50% of adults on the spectrum in

:19:12.:19:15.

full-time unpaid work, that reflected in the statistics. This is

:19:16.:19:19.

one of the reasons why I'm working locally to Pat... To support

:19:20.:19:27.

employees and take a autistic people. I'm looking forward to the

:19:28.:19:30.

Government publishing its white paper on this ability and employment

:19:31.:19:34.

this year. They say it will set out reforms to improve support for

:19:35.:19:37.

people with health conditions and disabilities, including exploring

:19:38.:19:41.

the roles of employers to further reduce the disability employment gap

:19:42.:19:45.

and promote integration across health and employment. But the

:19:46.:19:47.

minister be able to give us any indication about when we might

:19:48.:19:52.

expect this, because I am aware the dates have been moved around? We

:19:53.:19:55.

know anecdotally that autistic people feel of the current employer

:19:56.:19:57.

and support services do not meet their needs, but the current system

:19:58.:20:01.

does not record their participation or outcomes from work programmes. I

:20:02.:20:07.

want to see more robust data on autistic people to understand how

:20:08.:20:11.

provision is working for them and furthermore, what are we doing to

:20:12.:20:13.

support young people with autism to make that transition from education

:20:14.:20:19.

to the world of work. Michael Stich when said his son gets a lot of

:20:20.:20:22.

support in school but is very worried about what happens when he

:20:23.:20:26.

finishes education. The Government has committed to replacing the

:20:27.:20:30.

current work programme with this new work in health programme for people

:20:31.:20:33.

with health conditions and disabilities. This presents an

:20:34.:20:37.

important opportunity for us to go more to support autistic people in

:20:38.:20:42.

particular to find and stay in work. I'd like to ask the Minister, in

:20:43.:20:46.

relation to the new work and health programme, what date the Internet a

:20:47.:20:50.

document will be published and what date the programme will be

:20:51.:20:53.

operational from and whether the specification for the programme will

:20:54.:20:56.

be required that the conditions of the claimants will be recorded by

:20:57.:21:01.

both providers and Jobcentre plus including autism and what

:21:02.:21:03.

discussions he has had about the conditions that will be recorded. On

:21:04.:21:11.

awareness and funding, one thing that came across from my

:21:12.:21:14.

constituents was that people often think if you are autistic you have a

:21:15.:21:17.

genius talent and they don't really understand the idea of a meltdown.

:21:18.:21:22.

It is just used to describe any kind of naughty behaviour. This lack of

:21:23.:21:24.

understanding is where the Government can take a leadership in

:21:25.:21:30.

tackling that. Have people on the spectrum and tell them that they do

:21:31.:21:33.

not go out because they are worried about the reactions of others to

:21:34.:21:37.

their autism and a quarter have been asked to leave a public place

:21:38.:21:41.

because of their behaviour associated with their autism. Sardar

:21:42.:21:45.

parents cope? They respond by not taking their children into the

:21:46.:21:49.

places where they don't feel they can and it makes these children have

:21:50.:21:54.

a smaller world, they cannot lead a public space is that we all enjoy,

:21:55.:22:00.

parks, museums and shopping centres. I want to say the video which has

:22:01.:22:06.

had 50 million views was a fantastic way of describing just difficult it

:22:07.:22:10.

is as a parent of an autistic child. The Government can do a lot more and

:22:11.:22:18.

I say around a 10,000 people in this country are affected by dementia and

:22:19.:22:21.

the Government has shown great bravery in trying to change public

:22:22.:22:26.

attitudes on dementia by spending over ?2 million on awareness

:22:27.:22:29.

campaigns. This work needs to be done to reach as people on the

:22:30.:22:32.

autistic spectrum in the same way. I'm aware of the Government's

:22:33.:22:36.

?340,000 programme in this area and I'm looking for to him in the

:22:37.:22:39.

minister's remarks telling us more about the scope of this project.

:22:40.:22:46.

Things like the A Word on the BBC, this is now the time when the

:22:47.:22:49.

Government can relate the awareness of autism into a true understanding.

:22:50.:23:00.

Can I start, and I'm aware she's not in her place, by thanking the right

:23:01.:23:08.

honourable member for Chesham and Amersham who has the stowed so many

:23:09.:23:12.

rights through legislation and has really started this whole chain and

:23:13.:23:16.

I'd like to page but and give my thanks on behalf on Michael Stich

:23:17.:23:20.

runs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think it is fair to say that having been

:23:21.:23:23.

elected only for the last year, before the election, I had a direct

:23:24.:23:27.

experience of autism at all. Indeed, it was only a problem being

:23:28.:23:34.

selective group of mothers who had autistic children or children with

:23:35.:23:37.

Asperger's reached out to me. They sat me down and explained how

:23:38.:23:41.

difficult the lives were. They asked what they needed and how hard it was

:23:42.:23:46.

to navigate through the system and since then, I've pledged I could do

:23:47.:23:50.

all I can to help people with a very, very special children indeed.

:23:51.:23:56.

Upon election, I was faced with on my first cases, which was a

:23:57.:24:00.

situation of a mother with a young child aged six where she had applied

:24:01.:24:04.

to the DVLA for a blue badge because her child in such difficult -- such

:24:05.:24:11.

a difficult condition that whenever he saw anyone in the streets, he

:24:12.:24:16.

collapsed. As a result, she had to carry her six-year-old child

:24:17.:24:20.

everywhere. She asks to be DVLA for a blue badge, but because in doing

:24:21.:24:24.

the text box system could not see any physical disability, she was

:24:25.:24:30.

unable to get the blue badge. We have to fight on her behalf and were

:24:31.:24:34.

fortunate to go in at a high level and get someone who understood the

:24:35.:24:39.

complex needs. That taught me that in a tick box system, for those with

:24:40.:24:43.

autism that such a unique and differing needs, they do not fit

:24:44.:24:48.

into that system. I would like to ask the Minister if he can find some

:24:49.:24:52.

way of ensuring that anybody who works in a tick box employment

:24:53.:24:57.

system, perhaps they should be the first to have autism training,

:24:58.:25:01.

because is often the case that it is impossible for autistic children and

:25:02.:25:04.

their families to navigate that system. Since then, I've dealt with

:25:05.:25:09.

more cases are being involved in special groups who work for those

:25:10.:25:14.

who have this condition in the constituency. It is without regard I

:25:15.:25:20.

want to focus on to points. Firstly, education and secondly the

:25:21.:25:23.

workplace. -- two points. I'm fortunate that it begs we have two

:25:24.:25:27.

special schools packet of those with autism and other conditions. --

:25:28.:25:35.

schools that deal with those. One school is rated of outstanding in

:25:36.:25:39.

all areas and I quote, the Ofsted report in 2015 talks about the

:25:40.:25:42.

inspirational headteacher and the assistant head teachers.

:25:43.:25:46.

It says all staff have an unqualified focus on the learning of

:25:47.:25:58.

the children. That must be the goal that every single school for

:25:59.:26:00.

children with autism must seek to follow. St Mary's is also in

:26:01.:26:05.

Bexhill, where young people don't just learn but also live in the

:26:06.:26:08.

environment, and they have had a difficult time due to a crisis of an

:26:09.:26:13.

the Dons in the chief executive. I visited the school the day the chief

:26:14.:26:17.

executive left, and I was knocked away by how caring, supporting and

:26:18.:26:26.

dedicated those teachers were in difficult and challenging

:26:27.:26:28.

conditions, and I have to take my hat off to all those who work in

:26:29.:26:32.

that environment. I do believe better times are ahead. And just a

:26:33.:26:36.

couple of points that the constituents of phrase to me with

:26:37.:26:42.

respect to schools. Autistic children have individual and

:26:43.:26:45.

different needs, and often need a different school to cater for them,

:26:46.:26:50.

but my county, East Sussex County Council, tends to favour one school,

:26:51.:26:53.

so it is very difficult the parents get their choice of school through,

:26:54.:26:56.

and I would like to see more freedom. We have trained 90,000

:26:57.:27:02.

teachers in autism, but another comment I have had is that a child

:27:03.:27:07.

was felt by their parents to have been isolated and restrained rather

:27:08.:27:13.

than experience positive teaching strategies. My constituents also

:27:14.:27:20.

struggle due to the long period of time it takes to get a diagnosis in

:27:21.:27:25.

place. Very briefly I want to mention employment. Tomorrow I have

:27:26.:27:30.

a jobs and apprenticeship fair, and I'm delighted that St Mary's in

:27:31.:27:33.

Bexhill will be bringing their young people down so that we can try to

:27:34.:27:38.

get them apprenticeships. I have an organisation called little gate farm

:27:39.:27:44.

that can help people to get employment opportunities, from that

:27:45.:27:46.

gap from school into the employment in rural communities, and I salute

:27:47.:27:51.

what they do and whatever does in my constituency for these very special

:27:52.:28:01.

and gifted people. Two weeks ago, I wouldn't have been able to speak in

:28:02.:28:05.

this debate at all, but because of a very pressing constituency issue, I

:28:06.:28:11.

find myself suddenly having to read up, listen, and I have learned so

:28:12.:28:16.

much today about autism. The only previous experience was teaching

:28:17.:28:19.

some autistic young men who passed through my hands as a former further

:28:20.:28:27.

education lecturer. I have become more and more aware of the need for

:28:28.:28:31.

raising awareness of autism at all levels, in the general public as

:28:32.:28:36.

well as with public authorities. And my honourable friend from Argyll and

:28:37.:28:40.

Bute mentioned the Scottish Government's plans for autism and

:28:41.:28:45.

their strategy, and as part of that, they opened six centres across

:28:46.:28:49.

Scotland to provide a one-stop shop experience the parents and people

:28:50.:28:56.

with autism. The one-stop shop in Motherwell will probably close in

:28:57.:29:01.

June this year, and since that has been announced, I have had

:29:02.:29:05.

innumerable e-mails from members of my constituency and people out with

:29:06.:29:09.

because it covers the whole of Lanarkshire, and there are two local

:29:10.:29:17.

authorities involved, North Lanarkshire Council and South

:29:18.:29:20.

Lanarkshire Council which are not now going to fund these shops, which

:29:21.:29:25.

is a devastating blow to my constituents and people across

:29:26.:29:33.

Lanarkshire. The one-stop shop provides workshops, training and

:29:34.:29:36.

support services for those with autism, and this is even before

:29:37.:29:40.

diagnosis. Anyone who thinks they may have an issue can go there and

:29:41.:29:45.

get advice. They were planning to run further courses the girls with

:29:46.:29:49.

autism, which is a very important area, and they were also hoping to

:29:50.:29:53.

run other specific and technical courses for parents and

:29:54.:29:59.

professionals. My local authority in North Lanarkshire Council has

:30:00.:30:03.

indicated that it will continue to fund an organisation called Hope for

:30:04.:30:07.

autism, which does good work with families in North Lanarkshire.

:30:08.:30:13.

However, they only get access after diagnosis, and it is mainly focused

:30:14.:30:18.

on socialising and is the children only. There is also an annual Fiva

:30:19.:30:25.

parents and children who joined this, and the fee is per child. This

:30:26.:30:31.

is devastating news, and I don't want to stand in this place and

:30:32.:30:37.

denigrate anything that Hoper Autism and North Lanarkshire hazard will

:30:38.:30:41.

continue to do, but they are not providing the range of services that

:30:42.:30:45.

parents access at parents, and this is causing great distress. I was

:30:46.:30:53.

unable to attend a meeting at the one-stop shop on Monday, but my

:30:54.:30:57.

office manager went and came back in tears almost at some of the stories

:30:58.:31:04.

that she heard. She said she found it most moving when parents said

:31:05.:31:11.

that they wished almost their children had a visible disability,

:31:12.:31:13.

that they wished they had something else, because then they would get

:31:14.:31:19.

more help, more hope, and people would understand what was happening

:31:20.:31:26.

with their children. And as I say, my office manager found this really,

:31:27.:31:32.

really heartfelt and it really brought it home to her how little

:31:33.:31:37.

she knew as well about autism. I don't think for one moment that

:31:38.:31:44.

North Lanarkshire Council is doing this out of badness, I know there

:31:45.:31:48.

are difficulties all over the UK in funding, but I don't think they

:31:49.:31:51.

actually understand what the one-stop shop was actually

:31:52.:31:59.

providing. I have a list here of some of the wonderful work that they

:32:00.:32:13.

have done. They ran workshops on sleep strategies, diet, autism and

:32:14.:32:32.

play, avoiding behaviour, safe talk autism awareness training, and all

:32:33.:32:40.

of this will be lost in my area. I'm grateful to the honourable lady

:32:41.:32:46.

forgiving way. I think it is important what she is saying. Does

:32:47.:32:51.

she think that there is any possibility of that decision being

:32:52.:32:55.

reversed now she is making such a powerful case for keeping it open

:32:56.:33:01.

for her constituents and people beyond her constituency? I thank the

:33:02.:33:08.

honourable lady for her intervention and the time it may buy me, and I

:33:09.:33:13.

think the parents as you can imagine are fighting hard to retain this and

:33:14.:33:18.

to convince the councils that this is a service which must be funded.

:33:19.:33:22.

It must be funded because of the great work that it does and the

:33:23.:33:26.

benefits that it brings to anyone in North Lanarkshire, and South

:33:27.:33:30.

Lanarkshire, affected by autism. Some of the e-mails I have had our

:33:31.:33:36.

heart-wrenching. Social isolation, nine-year-old children trying to

:33:37.:33:41.

kill themselves, and all of them say that the work that has been done

:33:42.:33:46.

here, and the staff in this one-stop shop, two of the staff are sick on

:33:47.:33:50.

good from Scottish autism, people who will lose their jobs. They all

:33:51.:33:57.

have nothing but raise for the help they have received. I am sorry madam

:33:58.:34:01.

Deputy Speaker, I don't think I can say any more that no one help, and I

:34:02.:34:07.

will go on and fight for this very valuable shop in Motherwell. Thank

:34:08.:34:16.

you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am proud to be a governor at Aylesbury

:34:17.:34:19.

School, a special school, where more than one third of people is autism.

:34:20.:34:26.

Many are on diagnosed when they start school. It has become a

:34:27.:34:31.

specialist autism school, and I am particularly grateful for the deputy

:34:32.:34:37.

head, Amanda Appleby, for the insight she has offered ahead of

:34:38.:34:45.

this debate. There are also two special schools in my own

:34:46.:34:48.

constituency doing special work for children with autism. The prior

:34:49.:34:53.

school has been related outstanding in every single category for its

:34:54.:34:54.

last two Ofsted inspection I was pleased to

:34:55.:35:09.

open their new post-16 facility in my constituency last autumn, which

:35:10.:35:14.

means that more young people with autism will be able to access

:35:15.:35:17.

further education and vocational education. Autism is a lifelong

:35:18.:35:24.

condition that affects people very differently. It affects how people

:35:25.:35:29.

communicate and how they make sense of the world around them. There are

:35:30.:35:37.

huge variations in the way that it affects people, whilst many live

:35:38.:35:41.

largely independent lives, others need more specialist support. Many

:35:42.:35:51.

unfortunately live a life full of anxiety, depression, mental health

:35:52.:35:55.

issues, and sensory sensitivity that make it extremely difficult to

:35:56.:36:00.

function to access normal situations and public services that we take for

:36:01.:36:04.

granted. A 2012 estimate of the number of people on the autistic

:36:05.:36:11.

spectrum founder prevalence of about 1.1% amongst adult, whilst a later

:36:12.:36:17.

study finds a similar figure amongst children. So if this House is

:36:18.:36:23.

representative of the population at large, we might expect at least

:36:24.:36:26.

seven members to be on the autistic spectrum. Unfortunately, the

:36:27.:36:32.

excellent support and education provided to children with autism at

:36:33.:36:38.

this school isn't always reflected in the education system as a whole.

:36:39.:36:46.

There are 120,000 school aged children in England on the autistic

:36:47.:36:52.

spectrum, and more than 70% of those are in mainstream education. The

:36:53.:36:57.

implication of this is that many, many teachers in mainstream schools

:36:58.:37:02.

are likely to have children with autism in their classes. And if they

:37:03.:37:06.

don't have the moment, they almost certainly well at some stage during

:37:07.:37:14.

their career. I pay tribute to the NASUWT for the valuable work they

:37:15.:37:18.

have done in this area, and particularly the report to which my

:37:19.:37:20.

right honourable friend for Chesham and Amersham referred, showing that

:37:21.:37:25.

60% of teachers do not believe they have enough training to meet the

:37:26.:37:32.

pupils with ASD. Of course. My normal friend is making powerful

:37:33.:37:36.

points around education. Is he aware of the work that is being done by

:37:37.:37:40.

Ambitious about autism where they have looked at the number of special

:37:41.:37:45.

educational appeals and tribunal is, that have gone up from over 1019 95

:37:46.:37:54.

to now over 4000 in 2014? And autism is amongst the most common type of

:37:55.:38:03.

appeal. I thank my right honourable friend, and having met with

:38:04.:38:07.

Ambitious on that very point, I certainly recognise the challenge to

:38:08.:38:16.

which she is referring. Difficulties within the classroom and for

:38:17.:38:21.

families of children with autism often arise really because of a lack

:38:22.:38:23.

of knowledge and understanding of the condition. Children on the

:38:24.:38:31.

autistic spectrum often get chastised for not behaving in

:38:32.:38:34.

exactly the same way as other children do. Children on the

:38:35.:38:41.

spectrum have high extrusion rates, figures from the Department for

:38:42.:38:45.

Education show that autistic pupils are four times more likely to be

:38:46.:38:50.

excluded when compared to pupils with no special educational needs.

:38:51.:38:56.

Teacher training must equip teachers with and knowledge and tools that

:38:57.:38:59.

they need to provide all pupils with the best loss of support throughout

:39:00.:39:04.

their time in education, and that is why I support Ambitious for Autism's

:39:05.:39:13.

call for autism to be included in the new teacher training framework.

:39:14.:39:17.

If I may now conclude my remarks with the words of Mr and Mrs

:39:18.:39:22.

Whitmore, parents of a pupil at my school. They said, we want our son

:39:23.:39:28.

to be except to, and for him to be accepted equally as a citizen of

:39:29.:39:34.

this country, as his peers are. Autism is only a small fraction of

:39:35.:39:40.

our son. It is not everything hears. He is so much more than the label

:39:41.:39:44.

Society has given him. And I think it is for people like Will, for the

:39:45.:39:49.

families working to make sure that their children and every body

:39:50.:39:54.

affected by autism can have the best possible chance to fulfil their full

:39:55.:39:58.

potential, whatever that is, whether it is in the workplace or in society

:39:59.:40:07.

as a whole, it is a huge positive step forward that we are having this

:40:08.:40:10.

debate, and the quality the contributions made, and I look

:40:11.:40:15.

forward to hearing the Minister's response. I am grateful for the

:40:16.:40:22.

opportunity to speak in this debate, and add my tribute to the honourable

:40:23.:40:27.

member for Chesham and Amersham on securing this debate, and on her

:40:28.:40:30.

long-standing commitment and hard work on this issue. I have been

:40:31.:40:35.

contacted by several parents of children with autism, parents who

:40:36.:40:40.

are proud of their children's abilities, and simply want, as any

:40:41.:40:44.

parent wants, their children to receive the support they need to

:40:45.:40:46.

live the best life possible. There are many problems and

:40:47.:40:57.

challenges and they cut across different areas of public sector

:40:58.:41:00.

responsibility. I have represented parents with autistic children who

:41:01.:41:02.

are struggling to get a diagnosis for their son or daughter. And that

:41:03.:41:07.

is a very significant problem. Just as worrying, however, the goal is to

:41:08.:41:12.

have contact me whose child has a diagnosis, but who are still

:41:13.:41:15.

struggling to secure the additional resources and support that they

:41:16.:41:19.

need. Whether this is a classroom ball with transport to get to and

:41:20.:41:23.

from school or in accessing housing which is appropriate for the family

:41:24.:41:28.

all with the welfare system -- all with the welfare system or health

:41:29.:41:31.

care. There is a lack of in the standings with autism and that is

:41:32.:41:35.

across the public spectre where families face the grand stereotypes

:41:36.:41:38.

and the complex it is not understood and this results in parents facing

:41:39.:41:42.

weekly and sometimes daily battles on behalf of their children just to

:41:43.:41:47.

secure the basics. I was privileged earlier this year to meet Isabella

:41:48.:41:53.

Robin Garnett whose 15-year-old son has autism. She came to see me and

:41:54.:41:56.

my surgery to tell me about the terrible experiences Mathie was

:41:57.:41:59.

having because of his mental health needs. -- Matthew. People who also

:42:00.:42:06.

mental health needs experienced this but I would like to focus on today.

:42:07.:42:11.

Last summer, Matthew's behaviour and a level of distress deteriorated and

:42:12.:42:15.

his family were finding it harder to cope. Eventually, they assaulted his

:42:16.:42:20.

father, resulting in his parents calling the police, a heartbreaking

:42:21.:42:24.

situation for any family. That it was sectioned under the Mental

:42:25.:42:27.

Health Act and they can do is like a chick intensive care unit, many

:42:28.:42:32.

miles from his south London home. Psychiatric intensive care units are

:42:33.:42:36.

for short term assessment, dies -- design to diagnose the treatment and

:42:37.:42:41.

make an onward referral within 6-8 weeks. The doctors quickly had

:42:42.:42:45.

untied the most appropriate place for Matthew to be was a unit in

:42:46.:42:50.

Northampton. They accepted the referral, but to his mother's

:42:51.:42:55.

distress, Matthew remained in Woking for a further six months only moving

:42:56.:42:58.

after persistent campaign on behalf of his family and after I'd

:42:59.:43:02.

repeatedly raised the case in parliament and with the Minister.

:43:03.:43:05.

I'm grateful to the Minister for meeting with me and Matthew's family

:43:06.:43:10.

and recognising the extent of their suffering and the serious issues

:43:11.:43:13.

with his care and for initiating a review of his case and all forward

:43:14.:43:17.

to seeing the results of the review and discussing it with him. One of

:43:18.:43:21.

the most troubling aspects of the situation was the absolute absence

:43:22.:43:24.

of autism awareness or specialism in the care received while in Woking

:43:25.:43:30.

for six months. There was no recognition of his need for routine

:43:31.:43:34.

and structure and the impacts of his diet on his condition and the

:43:35.:43:37.

detrimental impact of too much screen time on his mood and anxiety.

:43:38.:43:42.

As a consequence, his condition deteriorated both physically and

:43:43.:43:45.

mentally, he gained weight, became withdrawn, broke his wrist and his

:43:46.:43:49.

social skills and reading ability became a regressed and he became

:43:50.:43:53.

more anxious and frightened. Is parents launched a brave campaign to

:43:54.:43:56.

get him in the treatment he needed and in doing so, and gazed with many

:43:57.:44:02.

other parents of autism with mental health needs. -- engaged with. They

:44:03.:44:05.

launched a questionnaire for parents of children with autism and mental

:44:06.:44:10.

health needs and within a few days, more than eight to be parents have

:44:11.:44:17.

signed the petition and the results are troubling. Almost half of the

:44:18.:44:23.

respondents had omitted the prior to their child been omitted hospital

:44:24.:44:27.

bid received no support for autism or mental health needs. 85% of

:44:28.:44:30.

respondents used rather be admitted to hospital said they did not

:44:31.:44:34.

receive any autism specific report -- help and half said they do not

:44:35.:44:39.

feel involved in decisions about their child's care and 61% said

:44:40.:44:44.

after their child was discharged, no Rangers for support back in the

:44:45.:44:47.

community were made. Children with autism and their parents and carers

:44:48.:44:52.

deserve better. I'm grateful to the Minister for his engagement with

:44:53.:44:54.

Matthew Garner's family, I isn't a pick-up this and ensure a fairer

:44:55.:45:04.

deal for families facing these daily heartbreaking struggles and

:45:05.:45:06.

appropriate resourcing for the support they need. Thank you, Madam

:45:07.:45:13.

Deputy Speaker. It is said a society is adjudged by the way it treats its

:45:14.:45:20.

most vulnerable. Amongst our most vulnerable children with special

:45:21.:45:22.

educational needs including those on the autism spectrum. I want to give

:45:23.:45:28.

a voice to just a few of the many parents who over the past six years

:45:29.:45:34.

have to me, including support groups, to describe their challenges

:45:35.:45:38.

in trying to get appropriate support for the autistic children, described

:45:39.:45:45.

by far too many with these words, every day feels like a fight. Time

:45:46.:45:51.

prohibits me from quoting all I have to describe their struggles in

:45:52.:45:55.

seeking often inadequate slow or no diagnosis. Also of insufficient

:45:56.:46:01.

teacher training, a feeling as parents they have little voice or

:46:02.:46:06.

are inadequate or worse, not believed. Have struggled with

:46:07.:46:12.

bureaucracy, to many different organisations, of being pushed from

:46:13.:46:16.

pillar to post, of funding and resource frustrations, of being, as

:46:17.:46:21.

another said, at a loss as to what to do. We need to do better for

:46:22.:46:27.

them. One said we have two children who have autism and face huge

:46:28.:46:30.

challenges getting the understanding and support they need. Another said

:46:31.:46:34.

that teachers in her child's school in charge of special educational

:46:35.:46:39.

needs do not so visually specialised training. Another said teachers are

:46:40.:46:42.

given very little training many only get half a day to cover all special

:46:43.:46:49.

needs. Another said or training was needed so teachers can get older

:46:50.:46:53.

children to understand themselves where there may be an onset of

:46:54.:46:57.

distress and how to get help early on. Another said her son has

:46:58.:47:01.

difficulties in school and what has not helped is that the educational

:47:02.:47:07.

psychologist and the school said I should not say his is an autistic

:47:08.:47:13.

spectrum, rather, that he is a complex child with complex needs.

:47:14.:47:17.

But the letter from the community paediatrician doesn't say he has a

:47:18.:47:26.

diagnosis of AST. -- ASD. Another says all the parents tell you

:47:27.:47:30.

children can hold anxieties and behaviour at school in order to fit

:47:31.:47:34.

in. When they get to an environment where they can be themselves, they

:47:35.:47:40.

act completely differently. One said I had three uniforms, these were all

:47:41.:47:44.

torn when he rates turned home due to what had got the day. Doctors

:47:45.:47:49.

often listened more to teachers and parents. Parents are made to feel

:47:50.:47:55.

said another that they are bad parents and troublemakers and what

:47:56.:47:59.

parents would want to go to so much effort to be tender their child has

:48:00.:48:05.

a disability? -- so much effort to pretend. The diagnosis process is

:48:06.:48:10.

not working, waiting times are too long and some children are being

:48:11.:48:14.

deliberated over for to log being discharged when there is clearly an

:48:15.:48:18.

issue that these diagnoses. Another 30 which attention is paid to the

:48:19.:48:21.

opinion of teachers and not enough to parents. One told me she spent

:48:22.:48:27.

three years to try and get her son's statements, but because they didn't

:48:28.:48:30.

have one, they can get support at school, because the money comes with

:48:31.:48:37.

the statement. He is now 12, has ASD as diagnosed by a paediatrician but

:48:38.:48:41.

is still not -- but still what other statement. -- but does store not

:48:42.:48:54.

have a statements. The line, every day feels like a fightback came from

:48:55.:48:58.

one of the parents you just mentioned. Surely we have talked

:48:59.:49:02.

about this so long there should be more progress to try get more

:49:03.:49:05.

cooperation between the agencies of Government departments to ensure

:49:06.:49:10.

that every day is not a fight for parents and for those affected. He

:49:11.:49:17.

is correct and following autism act in 2009, the Department for health

:49:18.:49:21.

published a strategy which focused on five core areas of activity. One

:49:22.:49:26.

was the importance of and I quote, developing a clear, consistent

:49:27.:49:30.

pathway for diagnosis in every area which is followed by the offer of a

:49:31.:49:35.

personalised need assessment. That was for adults. How much more

:49:36.:49:40.

important is it that this happens for children and at the earliest

:49:41.:49:43.

possible age and stage? Waiting times for assessment should follow

:49:44.:49:48.

the guidelines of three months. That is a long time in a childhood, three

:49:49.:49:55.

years. It is an eternity. Another parent wrote, when diagnosis occurs

:49:56.:49:57.

then is to be a greater understanding of the different ways

:49:58.:50:00.

in which autism at present is all between girls and boys. There is not

:50:01.:50:05.

enough knowledge about girls on the spectrum. It is now recognised that

:50:06.:50:10.

there are far more girls with ASD than previously thought. They

:50:11.:50:13.

develop the ability to mask their condition much more effectively. Far

:50:14.:50:17.

more training is needed for professionals in the field to ensure

:50:18.:50:21.

our girls get equal access to assessment and diagnosis. My son was

:50:22.:50:26.

diagnosed locally by the paediatrician, yet these same doctor

:50:27.:50:29.

had quite evidently decided my daughter was not on the spectrum.

:50:30.:50:34.

Though he didn't investigate the possibility, so I had to take my

:50:35.:50:36.

daughter privately to a psychologist who was much more well-informed.

:50:37.:50:42.

This needs to be addressed. We are doing our girls a disservice at

:50:43.:50:46.

present. Another said, autism is a spectrum of conditions and everyone

:50:47.:50:52.

requires an individual solution. Particularly as autism can be

:50:53.:50:56.

accompanied by another condition. And as we have heard, further

:50:57.:50:59.

problem arises, as parents tell me that when a child reaches a late

:51:00.:51:03.

teens and falls between child and adult care, one mother told me that

:51:04.:51:08.

children with autism have an adolescent lasting a decade longer

:51:09.:51:12.

than anyone else, but at 16-18, schools and colleges stop talking to

:51:13.:51:16.

EU, but your child still need support for a very long time.

:51:17.:51:21.

Another said there are so many stumbling blocks on the way, it is

:51:22.:51:25.

no wonder some of the children end up in the juvenile justice system or

:51:26.:51:28.

self harm. And then there's the problem of an appointment will stop

:51:29.:51:33.

another told me of a struggle she has tried to find employment for her

:51:34.:51:38.

son with mild Asperger's. There's no support available and huge ignorance

:51:39.:51:43.

amongst potential employers. Given the right help, appropriate support

:51:44.:51:47.

can be really effective and that is why we want for every Child,

:51:48.:51:51.

including those with autism, the best start in life. It can be

:51:52.:51:59.

achieved. FICA, modern macro. I speak as another currently on the

:52:00.:52:05.

waiting list -- Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank everyone for their

:52:06.:52:13.

comments. I commend the member for Chesham and Amersham. She is a

:52:14.:52:22.

tireless campaigner on this issue. It is a subject incredibly close to

:52:23.:52:27.

my heart. There are some misconceptions about autism and I

:52:28.:52:29.

get thrown around, so does everyone is somewhere on the spectrum of,

:52:30.:52:34.

which we here in this place a lot. Or that people with autism have some

:52:35.:52:39.

sort of superpower or special gift! I can tell you now that they don't.

:52:40.:52:44.

Last week I was watching Star Wars with my summers and the lovely

:52:45.:52:49.

autistic friend. Between us we decided that what appeared as a

:52:50.:52:55.

teenage tantrum of the new dark Lord was perhaps him just needing time

:52:56.:53:00.

out. We concluded that perhaps he was autistic and just could not fit

:53:01.:53:05.

into the world he found himself in. Perhaps the new death Star was just

:53:06.:53:09.

to annoy Xand made him stressed out. We thought he might wear the mask

:53:10.:53:13.

because he didn't like icon types. I'm not sure it was the intention of

:53:14.:53:17.

the film-makers, but it's often close to him. The people I work with

:53:18.:53:24.

get autism but the live with it every day. -- they live with it

:53:25.:53:31.

every day. It is not the person with autism who has a problem, but the

:53:32.:53:35.

rest of the world. We have to think effectively about those within

:53:36.:53:38.

differently. I'm the families struggling with autism in adulthood

:53:39.:53:45.

and my constituency every day. In Michael Stich was it, there's an

:53:46.:53:50.

amazing autism support group called Spectrum and every meeting is packed

:53:51.:53:54.

with parents who need a break. It is not a minority issue but a growing

:53:55.:53:58.

one and we are not keeping pace with our provision awareness or

:53:59.:54:02.

attitudes. Today, I want to focus on how the world needs to think

:54:03.:54:06.

differently about employment for those with autism. Only 15% of

:54:07.:54:10.

working age people are currently in work according to the National

:54:11.:54:14.

Autistic Society. Any parent with a child with autism, this presents a

:54:15.:54:17.

heartbreaking and bleak future, but it does not need to be. Ambitious

:54:18.:54:23.

about autism have identified at 95% of young people with the condition

:54:24.:54:29.

and want to work, so what can we do? The DWP have made some impressive

:54:30.:54:33.

commitments in the last few years in job centre plus, saying they will

:54:34.:54:35.

implement autism awareness and networks, but in reality, and I

:54:36.:54:44.

welcome all this, that is not our people in my constituency are

:54:45.:54:48.

experiencing it. In one case, my constituent told me and I quote, I

:54:49.:54:52.

do not blame the staff, but it comes down to a lack of understanding and

:54:53.:54:56.

as above a job centre claim to provide is not there. I was treated

:54:57.:55:00.

as though I had no disability and left to my own devices. This is the

:55:01.:55:05.

problem of having an invisible disability. I will give way. I thank

:55:06.:55:10.

her for giving away because I was at a meeting last week and some be

:55:11.:55:13.

raised the issue about the job centre, specifically around

:55:14.:55:19.

self-assessment and self-assessment for people with autism or Asperger's

:55:20.:55:22.

being incredibly difficult, so why does that continue to be part of the

:55:23.:55:28.

process watcher Mark I thank her for her intervention and I couldn't

:55:29.:55:32.

agree more. Another constituent told me this week our job centre failed

:55:33.:55:38.

to allow his mother to be learned for him -- attend with him. This

:55:39.:55:44.

meant frequent incidents of faltering benefits and has made him

:55:45.:55:48.

incredibly vulnerable and have totally insecure finances. On

:55:49.:55:52.

another occasion a mother wanted to access a bus pass for the home to

:55:53.:55:56.

school scheme in order to get her son ready for when he leaves school

:55:57.:56:00.

in a few years so he can go on a bus alone. She was given a computer says

:56:01.:56:08.

no told to return in a few years when it wouldn't matter. -- when it

:56:09.:56:12.

would matter. We have got to be bold and flexible,

:56:13.:56:23.

and think differently about how we can make our services available to

:56:24.:56:27.

people on the autistic spectrum. We have come a long way from the days

:56:28.:56:31.

when people in a wheelchair couldn't access a job because they couldn't

:56:32.:56:35.

get into a building. In the case of autistic people, it may not be a

:56:36.:56:39.

physical barrier like a staircase, but the barrier is the same. Not

:56:40.:56:44.

providing fair and equal access for these people is not only wrong, it

:56:45.:56:48.

is illegal, and employers need to know this. We need employers to

:56:49.:56:51.

understand how an interview might feel to somebody with autism, it is

:56:52.:56:57.

terrifying enough for somebody who is neurotypical, so imagine that you

:56:58.:57:01.

cannot look somebody in the eye or find it impossible to talk in front

:57:02.:57:07.

of strangers, or you cannot understand if two people talk over

:57:08.:57:12.

each other. I would ask everyone in this place to do as I have done and

:57:13.:57:16.

offered to provide work experience for a young person with autism. I

:57:17.:57:22.

would imagine I would learn as much on my placement if not more. I would

:57:23.:57:26.

encourage us to do the same with our local business improvement district,

:57:27.:57:31.

and ask businesses to do the same, to offer tailored work placement and

:57:32.:57:35.

apprenticeships. This will help us all to think differently. I want to

:57:36.:57:39.

stand here and say with confidence to every young person with autism,

:57:40.:57:43.

every parent with a child on the autistic spectrum, you can do

:57:44.:57:47.

anything. I want to say, your future is bright. I wanted to say it to

:57:48.:57:53.

myself for my son. I want to say it to my son's Star Wars fan friend,

:57:54.:57:58.

but I can't. I don't know what the future will be like them. So let's

:57:59.:58:02.

try and change it, let's think differently. I thank the right

:58:03.:58:10.

honourable member for Chesham and Amersham from reinforced this debate

:58:11.:58:13.

today, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in today's

:58:14.:58:17.

debate, and put my full support by the motion before us today. As I

:58:18.:58:21.

prepared my notes, it became obvious that while members of this chamber

:58:22.:58:25.

have an important role to play in raising awareness of autism,

:58:26.:58:27.

valuable insights will always come from those with the direct

:58:28.:58:36.

experience of the condition. They are the ones who know what services

:58:37.:58:40.

are working or not and what changes can be made to make society autism

:58:41.:58:45.

friendly. It is important to make their voices heard. The people in

:58:46.:58:49.

particular I will highlight, firstly a constituent whose son has autism,

:58:50.:58:54.

and secondly, Vicky McCarthy, the founder of reach for autism, a

:58:55.:58:59.

nonprofit organisation operating in my constituency of Inverclyde. I

:59:00.:59:08.

have a constituent who moved with her six-year-old son in 2003. They

:59:09.:59:16.

are somewhat aware with autistic children, where others lacked basic

:59:17.:59:25.

understanding of situations, and a lack of age-appropriate activities

:59:26.:59:31.

were teenagers with autism. Teenage years are difficult time with

:59:32.:59:34.

anyone, let alone anyone with autism. Greater coordination between

:59:35.:59:41.

social services and parents could lead to services being held at bay

:59:42.:59:45.

to reflect the needs of those children. -- better reflect. She

:59:46.:59:52.

felt a while access to information with easily obtained through the

:59:53.:59:56.

schools, contacting social services was a laborious process with no

:59:57.:59:59.

guarantee of assistance at the end of it. My constituent summarised the

:00:00.:00:03.

situation best in her own words when she said, I would describe our life

:00:04.:00:10.

is one big battle of every tiny scrap of help, and someone who is

:00:11.:00:14.

naturally quite a shy person, this has brought its own difficulties.

:00:15.:00:19.

Many parents of an autistic child will undoubtedly relate to these

:00:20.:00:21.

concerns, and we must recognise their commitment to campaigning for

:00:22.:00:32.

that support to be available. One organisation campaigning for this is

:00:33.:00:36.

Reach for Autism, established by Vicky McCarthy. It offers a wide

:00:37.:00:39.

rage of support from teacher training to mental programmes, --

:00:40.:00:54.

mentor programmes. Not only for autistic people, but their families.

:00:55.:01:00.

Lifeline services like those established by Vicky can transform

:01:01.:01:05.

lives. We can decrease the chances of autistic people suffering from

:01:06.:01:08.

mental health problems as a result of social isolation or a low

:01:09.:01:12.

self-esteem. This investment ensures that people with autism feel valued,

:01:13.:01:20.

and prepared for employment, and normal lives. Reach for Autism has

:01:21.:01:26.

no core funding, and running costs are met entirely through donations

:01:27.:01:31.

in their own fundraising. The organisation and is vital services

:01:32.:01:34.

could not exist without the energetic support of volunteers, and

:01:35.:01:40.

the determined efforts of Vicky. For those individuals and their

:01:41.:01:44.

families, the organisations themselves, those touched by autism

:01:45.:01:48.

are faced with the same obstacles, a lack of funding, I lack of certainty

:01:49.:01:53.

over future support, and a lack of public understanding of the

:01:54.:01:57.

condition. In conclusion, I hope that other members join with me

:01:58.:02:03.

today in claiming that people with autism, their families,

:02:04.:02:05.

organisations that support them, deserve better than this

:02:06.:02:08.

never-ending uphill struggle. All people, including those with autism,

:02:09.:02:12.

deserve the chance to realise their full potential, and with increasing

:02:13.:02:15.

awareness, we can take important steps towards becoming a more autism

:02:16.:02:20.

friendly society. I know I am the better from increased knowledge, and

:02:21.:02:24.

I would like to thank Vicky and all those who have raised my awareness

:02:25.:02:29.

and understanding. Thank you, Madam Deputy chair. I would like to add my

:02:30.:02:36.

voice to the clamour, the chorus of appreciation to the right on Rob on

:02:37.:02:40.

them before Chesham and Amersham not just for sponsoring this debate

:02:41.:02:44.

today, but for all the work she has done. -- the right honourable

:02:45.:02:48.

member. This is a subject close to my heart, and I am speaking as a

:02:49.:02:53.

former teacher of English for over 20 years. She witnessed first hand

:02:54.:03:01.

some of the obstacles young people face living with autism. This debate

:03:02.:03:07.

is important not just because of the challenges that those living with

:03:08.:03:10.

autism have to cope with, but also because of the isolation, sometimes

:03:11.:03:16.

the bullying, the judgment call attitudes, that they face from a

:03:17.:03:22.

society that too often simply does not comprehend this condition, and

:03:23.:03:26.

that is why we all, and I think there is consensus today, we all

:03:27.:03:30.

need to work hard, not just to raise awareness of this condition but

:03:31.:03:35.

understanding of it, and in the long-term, society's lack of

:03:36.:03:37.

understanding can leave an individual with autism quite

:03:38.:03:41.

emotionally scarred, and in the longer term, coming to difficulties

:03:42.:03:45.

accessing employment and the means to a fulfilling life. The scale of

:03:46.:03:52.

those affected by this condition is significant, and it is thought that

:03:53.:03:55.

more than one person in every 100 maybe autistic, and behind each

:03:56.:03:59.

individual case as we have heard today are families, loved ones and

:04:00.:04:04.

friends who also live with this condition. A study in 2008 revealed

:04:05.:04:12.

that as many as 71% of children with autism also live with a mental

:04:13.:04:17.

health condition such as anxiety, depression and obsessive-compulsive

:04:18.:04:23.

disorder. The Association of graduate careers advisory services

:04:24.:04:26.

found that 26% of graduates of the autism spectrum are unemployed, by

:04:27.:04:33.

far the highest rate of any disability group, and more than

:04:34.:04:35.

double the average unemployment rate for disabled adults. And whilst

:04:36.:04:41.

figures are hard to establish, it is thought that only 15% of autistic

:04:42.:04:45.

adults in the UK are in full-time work. A large-scale study in the

:04:46.:04:54.

British Journal of psychiatry found that people with autism are more

:04:55.:04:56.

than twice as likely than their peers in the wider population to die

:04:57.:05:04.

prematurely. We have heard it today, no two people with autism are the

:05:05.:05:10.

same. There is a whole spectrum of the condition which may perhaps

:05:11.:05:17.

explain the gaps in understanding of the condition in the wider

:05:18.:05:21.

population, but we know it can be quite debilitating for the

:05:22.:05:24.

individual involved, as well as his or her family, if they suffer from

:05:25.:05:30.

the condition with any severity. Progress has been made, but it is

:05:31.:05:33.

important that as much work as possible continues to be undertaken

:05:34.:05:37.

to promote, as I have said, not just awareness but understanding, and

:05:38.:05:42.

recent work undertaken by the National Autistic Society found that

:05:43.:05:46.

only 16% of those living with autism and their families felt that the

:05:47.:05:50.

general public had a meaningful understanding of it. I am optimistic

:05:51.:05:57.

that folk on the whole on the heart a decent, and if we can help to

:05:58.:06:03.

raise awareness in this debate, I think this is a small part of that

:06:04.:06:08.

and if we can raise understanding of this condition, we know that the

:06:09.:06:18.

public will display more compassion towards those in this condition.

:06:19.:06:30.

Which it also welcome the schools that have an understanding of those

:06:31.:06:35.

pupils, helping those on the autistic spectrum to interact with

:06:36.:06:46.

the world as it is. I want to talk about the honourable gentleman very

:06:47.:06:50.

important point, in some schools there is a deficit of understanding

:06:51.:06:54.

and a deficit of support going on, but there are also excellent

:06:55.:06:57.

examples of teachers who have had quite thorough training in autism,

:06:58.:07:03.

and are able to support children in quite a specialised way and help

:07:04.:07:06.

them access the curriculum in quite a meaningful way that otherwise

:07:07.:07:10.

would take place. I think we have to recognise that and share that good

:07:11.:07:13.

practice around the entire UK wherever it exists. It is important

:07:14.:07:19.

that when we raise understanding of autism, that helps, we understand

:07:20.:07:25.

that that will help to erase, to remove the shadow of loneliness and

:07:26.:07:29.

isolation that far too often those living with autism and their

:07:30.:07:34.

families bring. We know that loneliness and isolation has a very

:07:35.:07:39.

negative impact on the general health of those affected by it, and

:07:40.:07:43.

it is considered that loneliness is as damaging to health as smoking,

:07:44.:07:49.

and that puts into sharp focus the importance of this. I just want to

:07:50.:07:56.

pay tribute to work going on in my own constituency. And I attended an

:07:57.:08:04.

event in Ardrossan library where people living with autism come

:08:05.:08:11.

together and share stories about the strategies they use, and I want to

:08:12.:08:21.

pay tribute to Suzanne Fernando in my undying quite proud of the work

:08:22.:08:29.

going on my constituency in the Scottish strategy for autism,

:08:30.:08:34.

putting this on the agenda, putting resources into it, because when

:08:35.:08:36.

children and young people, and adults with autism, lose out, they

:08:37.:08:42.

are lost our society, and we need to be more inclusive and mindful of

:08:43.:08:47.

that. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd join in the

:08:48.:08:51.

congratulations to the honourable member for Chesham and Amersham for

:08:52.:08:54.

securing this debate and all of her work on this issue. Last week I was

:08:55.:09:02.

invited to Grimsby autism forum, a fantastic group which helps those

:09:03.:09:04.

with autism and their families to have a voice within the many

:09:05.:09:09.

different systems that they find themselves thrust into, and I would

:09:10.:09:13.

like to raise some of the issues they shared with me there. There

:09:14.:09:19.

seem to be two main areas of concern, problems with diagnosing

:09:20.:09:24.

autism and asked Burges, and the lack of post diagnosis support and

:09:25.:09:31.

subsequent pathways, and speaking from experience, the parents seem to

:09:32.:09:37.

really have to work for the diagnosis and the help, and it

:09:38.:09:41.

sounds like there is a hurdle every step of the way. In Grimsby, no one

:09:42.:09:46.

knows who is meant to be responsible for diagnosis, there is no clear

:09:47.:09:49.

division of responsibility between the clinical commissioning group and

:09:50.:09:52.

the child and adolescent mental health services. The issue is

:09:53.:09:57.

particularly acute with regard to 16-18 -year-olds. If you are that

:09:58.:10:03.

age, you can forget about being diagnosed, I was told. I would be

:10:04.:10:08.

grateful if the Minister could clarify in his speech which body has

:10:09.:10:12.

the responsibility for diagnosing at those ages and say why this isn't

:10:13.:10:15.

happening. Many parents feel there is also a reluctance by schools, the

:10:16.:10:19.

local authority and the CCG to statement children, which prevents

:10:20.:10:22.

them from accessing additional services that they need. Some

:10:23.:10:28.

parents, does the Minister believe there may be an issue that councils

:10:29.:10:32.

and schools are not as proactive as they could be in diagnosing

:10:33.:10:36.

children. Some people also complained about certain assessments

:10:37.:10:41.

being done out of area. If long journeys are likely to exacerbate

:10:42.:10:46.

the worst symptoms of a condition, some people simply won't go, they

:10:47.:10:49.

will not take their children and therefore miss out on the help they

:10:50.:10:54.

so desperately need. Autism and Asperger's on their own can be

:10:55.:10:56.

difficult conditions the people and their carers to cope with, but as

:10:57.:11:03.

the honourable member said, co-morbidity is really common, and

:11:04.:11:07.

can make diagnosis less likely still, and it is a real frustration

:11:08.:11:11.

to parents when people receive help anxiety or depression, before they

:11:12.:11:15.

even receive a diagnosis for what they feel is the core problem.

:11:16.:11:19.

Helpful coexisting conditions is welcome and necessary. But when it

:11:20.:11:24.

supersedes autism or Asperger's support, it is simply seen as

:11:25.:11:26.

messing about at the edges. They are still held the bike in

:11:27.:11:36.

education and find it difficult to break into the job market. Too often

:11:37.:11:40.

autistic children are put into the naughty box at school and research

:11:41.:11:45.

says that most teachers feel they don't feel they've had adequate

:11:46.:11:49.

training to these children with autism, which is worrying given that

:11:50.:11:53.

70% are educated in mainstream schools. I believe that children

:11:54.:11:56.

with autism can absolutely succeed at school but if teachers are not

:11:57.:12:01.

properly equipped to help them, then too often, they are simply written

:12:02.:12:08.

offer. I find it shocking as the member for Dudley South mentioned,

:12:09.:12:11.

the majority of exclusions are for children with special education

:12:12.:12:17.

needs, yet only 15% of all students. How can be compatible with the

:12:18.:12:20.

equalities act which specifically prohibits dissemination against

:12:21.:12:24.

people by excluding the pupil from school. Upon leaving, school young

:12:25.:12:28.

people with Asperger's and autism often struggle to get a job all keep

:12:29.:12:35.

one. A charity in Grimsby runs shops and garden centres which provide

:12:36.:12:39.

opportunities for work and training to people with mental health

:12:40.:12:41.

conditions. It is a valuable schema and I like to see more employers

:12:42.:12:47.

outside the charity sector doing the same. I'm sure there's plenty the

:12:48.:12:51.

Government can do to promote employment for people with mental

:12:52.:12:54.

health conditions in the public sector as well as an enterprising

:12:55.:12:58.

private sector firms to do the same. There are some employers who do a

:12:59.:13:02.

lot to encourage disabled people to apply for jobs with them, for

:13:03.:13:05.

instance by including a positive about disabled people at symbol on

:13:06.:13:09.

the job adverts. But while disabled people are advised to look for the

:13:10.:13:12.

symbol on adverts, I don't understand why job centres do not

:13:13.:13:15.

hold list of employers within the local area which are certified as

:13:16.:13:19.

such. Surely that will be a relatively simple and helpful step

:13:20.:13:24.

for job seekers with autism and Asperger's. I hope the Minister will

:13:25.:13:28.

join me in calling for my local job centre to collect this information

:13:29.:13:32.

and start sharing it with autistic job-seekers. Overall, I think there

:13:33.:13:36.

needs to be a better understanding of autism and Asperger's across

:13:37.:13:40.

society, diagnosis needs to be more common and the process in seeking

:13:41.:13:43.

diagnosis needs to be made much easier for parents. Thank you, Madam

:13:44.:13:53.

Deputy Speaker. I also thank the right honourable member for the

:13:54.:13:56.

vital and much-needed debate and that lighter bank the member for

:13:57.:14:01.

South Swindon who would be speaking today if she were able to do so. I'm

:14:02.:14:14.

the also the father of an autistic child at with learning difficulties.

:14:15.:14:17.

I wanted to share some personal insight into living with a family

:14:18.:14:21.

member with autism, unfortunately, I realise the speech I brought will

:14:22.:14:24.

problem last of the full duration of the debate, so I can't give that.

:14:25.:14:31.

But I want to debate should be to some of the excellent organisations

:14:32.:14:35.

nationally and locally who help support children and adults with

:14:36.:14:38.

autism. And also to say a bit about how much services in my area in

:14:39.:14:41.

greater Manchester need to develop in future. I'm blessed to be at the

:14:42.:14:46.

father of four beautiful children, my oldest was born when I was a new

:14:47.:14:52.

graduate in my early 20s and I remember driving back from the

:14:53.:14:55.

hospital the day after his birth genuinely listening to the radio

:14:56.:15:02.

when Elton John came on and feeling is all new parents do, that's

:15:03.:15:06.

tremendous excitement but also a healthy dose of nervousness the

:15:07.:15:11.

knife us life would ever be quite the same again. And as the first of

:15:12.:15:20.

my peer group to have children, we missed early signs something wasn't

:15:21.:15:25.

quite right. And Jack's mother and I unfortunately separated when he was

:15:26.:15:31.

one, and many of the things he saw attribute it to the difficulty of

:15:32.:15:35.

him having to different families. We soon came to see everything was not

:15:36.:15:38.

quite as it should be, particularly when taking him to football swimming

:15:39.:15:42.

when you can follow the rules or societal norms of the situation it

:15:43.:15:47.

was in. It was a difficult moment when we received news of the

:15:48.:15:51.

diagnosis. There is no denying it, there was a sense of anger, guilt

:15:52.:15:56.

and sometimes a sense of shame. But also relief for many parents who are

:15:57.:16:01.

struggling for the diagnosis of themselves. They will be looking for

:16:02.:16:05.

that sense of relief that comes from that. There are big consequences for

:16:06.:16:10.

family life. We've heard about families getting difficulty in going

:16:11.:16:14.

out because of the reaction and they get. You can imagine that is

:16:15.:16:17.

particularly hard when you are the local MP in attendance have large

:16:18.:16:21.

civic occasions is mandatory for the job. The challenge we have, as well

:16:22.:16:29.

as all the things on provision of health care and mental health

:16:30.:16:32.

provision, is to make our society one that is more autism friendly.

:16:33.:16:36.

There are some brilliant people doing that in this country, I would

:16:37.:16:41.

like to commend the work of the National Autistic Society, and

:16:42.:16:44.

particularly their recent campaign, too much information which I believe

:16:45.:16:48.

is the most powerful campaign yet. I was touched by the film, shot

:16:49.:16:51.

entirely from the perspective of a child with autism are walking

:16:52.:16:54.

through a shopping centre which gives a minute long insight into the

:16:55.:16:59.

discomfort, sensory overload and claustrophobic that are normal for

:17:00.:17:03.

people with autism. And whether child has a meltdown, the view

:17:04.:17:06.

understands why that is. There are many others I would like to talk

:17:07.:17:14.

about, about other charities and the work they do insert the causes and

:17:15.:17:19.

treatments of autism, but I also want to say I see some trilanders

:17:20.:17:21.

work in this country, models from the sector, but also from other

:17:22.:17:29.

organisations. Asda have been given as an example, many cinema chains

:17:30.:17:33.

are embracing autism friendly screenings which I find fantastic.

:17:34.:17:37.

My older beloved football club, Sunderland have built a sensory room

:17:38.:17:41.

in their stadium for autistic fans, which has never been available

:17:42.:17:53.

before. Another company leading the way is Manchester Airport who

:17:54.:17:56.

fast-track families with autistic children through the stressful and

:17:57.:18:00.

Barnett of airport security and have greater vigour some booklets with

:18:01.:18:03.

help but people for what I spent from an airport experience and their

:18:04.:18:06.

thoughtfulness is literally helping open up access in a wider world for

:18:07.:18:11.

people in greater Manchester and beyond with autism. That brings me

:18:12.:18:19.

turn my final point, Manchester is performing well in the national NHS

:18:20.:18:23.

strategy for autism and my hope for what we can all do with devolution

:18:24.:18:26.

of health provision in greater Manchester is to make it the first

:18:27.:18:30.

autism friendly city region in the world. I want to see more public

:18:31.:18:34.

spaces are accessible to those with autism, more public servants

:18:35.:18:40.

empowered as autism champions and an ambitious strategy for education and

:18:41.:18:43.

employability. I want greater Manchester to be a beacon of best

:18:44.:18:46.

practice for autism across the world. I hope the Minister will

:18:47.:18:50.

share that ambition. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'd like to

:18:51.:18:55.

congratulate the Backbench Business Committee and the right honourable

:18:56.:19:00.

member for Chesham and Amersham for bringing this debate and for being

:19:01.:19:05.

an autism champion herself. As a clinical psychologist, I've worked

:19:06.:19:09.

with many people who have autistic spectrum disorder and I'd like to

:19:10.:19:13.

put one up -- on a record that it's a privilege to be a member of all

:19:14.:19:17.

Parliamentary group and the co-sponsor of this today. Autistic

:19:18.:19:23.

spectrum disorder is a pervasive, lifelong developmental disorder

:19:24.:19:27.

which affects people socially. It impacts upon how people communicate

:19:28.:19:30.

with others how they relate to people and how they experience the

:19:31.:19:34.

world around them. They get professional is one thing, but the

:19:35.:19:39.

key lesson we must learn is that the greatest insights, from those who

:19:40.:19:43.

have autistic spectrum disorder and their families and we must listen

:19:44.:19:47.

very, very carefully to what they tell us. We know that how they

:19:48.:19:53.

interact with individuals with ASD and their families can have a huge

:19:54.:19:57.

impact upon the quality of life. Negative public reactions can

:19:58.:20:00.

encourage people and their families to avoid situations and social

:20:01.:20:04.

contact which can lead to them coming socially isolated and also

:20:05.:20:08.

experiencing and all health difficulties. I will give way.

:20:09.:20:14.

Obviously, the debate has covered a lot of the structural and supportive

:20:15.:20:18.

things that need to be done, but is it not also just thrown down the

:20:19.:20:22.

gauntlet to us that we need to change our view? We think people

:20:23.:20:26.

with autism as finding difficulty in seeing the world as we see it, we

:20:27.:20:30.

actually need to see the world as they see it. I think, as usual, she

:20:31.:20:36.

makes an excellent point and yes, we need to focus upon not people with

:20:37.:20:42.

autistic spectrum disorders and their difficulties, but their full

:20:43.:20:47.

potential and indeed have greater awareness of the world as they see

:20:48.:20:53.

it themselves. Research indicates that 66% of autistic people and 60%

:20:54.:20:58.

of the families have reported feeling socially isolated. 70% of

:20:59.:21:03.

them are reported to have mental health disorders, such as anxiety or

:21:04.:21:08.

depression and autistic adults have also been reported to be nine times

:21:09.:21:13.

more likely to die from suicide. There is a clear need, I feel, to

:21:14.:21:21.

dress mental health difficulties. One of my constituents who contact

:21:22.:21:26.

me also advised that they too much information video and campaign which

:21:27.:21:30.

must be commended had really resonated with her. She has an

:21:31.:21:34.

eight-year-old daughter who has autism and she shared with me some

:21:35.:21:39.

of her personal experiences. Her daughter is very vulnerable and

:21:40.:21:43.

sensitive to everyday sights, sounds, touch and smells. This

:21:44.:21:49.

causes her anxiety, panic, obsessive worries and despair. She cannot cope

:21:50.:21:54.

with changes to her environment and she is prone to becoming very

:21:55.:21:59.

distressed when in public. As a result, she has experienced negative

:22:00.:22:04.

community responses and also from her peers. Her reaction has been a

:22:05.:22:10.

reluctance to go back to school and withdraw from her extracurricular

:22:11.:22:13.

activities which sadly means she is at risk of becoming further

:22:14.:22:16.

isolated. It is clear from this story, which was common among those

:22:17.:22:21.

who have contacted me, that we all need to do more in many realms. I

:22:22.:22:29.

also recently attended a local school within my constituency where

:22:30.:22:34.

it was highlighted to me issues with a lack of understanding amongst

:22:35.:22:38.

peers and their parents about pupils with autism. The headteacher is now

:22:39.:22:41.

engaged in a very good works to increase understanding through

:22:42.:22:48.

planned awareness sessions. This is a fantastic local development and I

:22:49.:22:52.

commend her on this, but again, it highlights teacher training and

:22:53.:22:57.

awareness in schools is key. This also been touched on about raising

:22:58.:23:03.

awareness and understanding amongst employers to support people with

:23:04.:23:07.

autism into employment. Having a job is about earning a living, but also

:23:08.:23:11.

it contributes to psychological well being. It can provide people with a

:23:12.:23:17.

sense of belonging and purpose and bold confidence and self-esteem. The

:23:18.:23:23.

autism employment gap is even bigger than the general disability

:23:24.:23:27.

employment gap. Only 15% of autistic adults in the UK are actually in

:23:28.:23:33.

full-time work. The Association of advisory services has also reported

:23:34.:23:39.

that 26% of graduates are unemployed. Mainstream employment

:23:40.:23:45.

programmes currently only offer -- are failing those with autism,

:23:46.:23:48.

failing to capitalise on their potential. I urge that the Minister

:23:49.:23:54.

would ensure appropriate support for people with autism and this will be

:23:55.:23:58.

an issue covered by the proposals in the disability employment white

:23:59.:24:08.

paper. In 2011, the SNMP launched the Scottish strategy for autism,

:24:09.:24:10.

declaring that it was a national priority. This attempts to tie and

:24:11.:24:18.

approved diagnosis and create consistent service standards. It

:24:19.:24:22.

also helped to establish one-stop shops. This is an issue that must

:24:23.:24:26.

continue to be supported and I offer my full cooperation and involvement

:24:27.:24:32.

with the honourable member from Motherwell to save our local

:24:33.:24:37.

one-stop shop. In concluding, we all need to be champions of autism. I

:24:38.:24:40.

would ask the Minister to support and awareness campaign, promote

:24:41.:24:45.

training for teachers and local authority staff, tackle issues in

:24:46.:24:51.

the disability employment paper, ensure more clinicians are trained

:24:52.:24:54.

and consider waiting time guidelines will stop society cannot continue to

:24:55.:25:00.

fail people with autistic spectrum disorder, so let us do all we can

:25:01.:25:07.

together to ensure that we succeed. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and

:25:08.:25:14.

it is a pleasure to be in this debate and it has been a fantastic

:25:15.:25:18.

one. I have been here for all of it and would particularly like to thank

:25:19.:25:21.

my honourable friend is for Birmingham and Yardley and for the

:25:22.:25:28.

amazingly personal speeches which I think have really brought it home to

:25:29.:25:32.

everybody what it is like being the parent of an autistic child and I

:25:33.:25:35.

would like to find them both for that. It would be remiss of me not

:25:36.:25:43.

to thank the right honourable member for Chesham and Amersham for

:25:44.:25:46.

securing this debate and all the brilliant work she has done. She

:25:47.:25:53.

indicating I should get on I will. I could not help but compared autism,

:25:54.:25:58.

the incidence of autism, with incidents of dementia. And the

:25:59.:26:03.

figures are very similar. There are an estimated eight and a thousand

:26:04.:26:06.

people living with dementia in the UK compared with an

:26:07.:26:13.

Whilst I would in no way wish to play one-off against the other, I

:26:14.:26:20.

think it is significant that the government spend on autism awareness

:26:21.:26:25.

is ?325,000, whilst the spend on dementia awareness is significantly

:26:26.:26:32.

more. The spend on dementia awareness is ?2.3 million. Think

:26:33.:26:39.

that is quite significant. I think the National Autistic Society have

:26:40.:26:43.

done fantastic work raising awareness about autism and I want to

:26:44.:26:48.

pay tribute to them. I welcomed, as many honourable members have done,

:26:49.:26:53.

the too much information campaign. Many members have mentioned about

:26:54.:26:57.

diagnostic waiting times. I feel that is an important part of dealing

:26:58.:27:04.

with autism. The diagnosis is really important. It helps people take

:27:05.:27:09.

control of their lives, helping to unlock barriers to essential support

:27:10.:27:14.

and services and also enables families to better understand their

:27:15.:27:19.

child and provide an explanation for many years of feeling different. And

:27:20.:27:24.

we've talked about how long adults and children have to wait for

:27:25.:27:32.

diagnosis, and the quality standard is clear, that once referred people

:27:33.:27:36.

should wait no more than three months before having their first

:27:37.:27:40.

diagnostic appointment. This is clearly not been consistently met

:27:41.:27:44.

across the country. The National Autistic Society calls on the

:27:45.:27:48.

government and NHS England to prioritise reducing waiting times

:27:49.:27:53.

for autism diagnoses and this would also help the NHS regarding mental

:27:54.:28:02.

illness. I would like to ask the Minister if he will pass NHS England

:28:03.:28:08.

with monitoring waiting times for each CCG drip. I would like to touch

:28:09.:28:17.

a little on teacher training, although much of what I wanted to

:28:18.:28:23.

say has been said. The vast majority of autistic children, over 70%, are

:28:24.:28:28.

in mainstream education, meaning every teacher is likely to have

:28:29.:28:32.

children with autism in their classes throughout their career. I

:28:33.:28:42.

want to quote the constituent of mine who said my son attends

:28:43.:28:46.

mainstream secondary school. Although he has a certain level of

:28:47.:28:50.

good support, there are a number of teachers who do not get him. Every

:28:51.:28:56.

child on the spectrum is different and an hour's a S D training does

:28:57.:29:03.

not give people the training they need. Is now rule book to help them

:29:04.:29:17.

understand sensory issues. I would like to support calls for autism

:29:18.:29:22.

awareness training to be included in new teacher training framework. I

:29:23.:29:35.

want to refer to to an issue in my neighbouring constituency. I was

:29:36.:29:44.

pleased to see this initiative. The manager of the store said he wanted

:29:45.:29:49.

to help after seeing a boy with autism struggle to cope in the shop.

:29:50.:29:57.

The store will open one hour early with no electronic distractions. The

:29:58.:30:01.

public address system will not be used. It will be open to help

:30:02.:30:06.

autistic and disabled shoppers. I think I may well go there myself.

:30:07.:30:16.

Thank you. I would like to congratulate the honourable lady for

:30:17.:30:21.

bringing this debate forward. Like others, I want to add the

:30:22.:30:33.

perspective of a parent of a child with autism to this debate. My elder

:30:34.:30:42.

starter has learning difficulties. I went to the launch of the booklet

:30:43.:30:46.

too much information. I recognise much of what is in there. There are

:30:47.:30:52.

telling statistics on the second page. 87% of families living with

:30:53.:31:02.

autism see people steer at their child's behaviour. I have

:31:03.:31:06.

experienced this. I develop a thick skin. One parent said the worst

:31:07.:31:12.

thing she found was that people who she knew and spoke to regularly

:31:13.:31:18.

would ignore her when he met her with her autistic son. How hurtful

:31:19.:31:22.

can that be? One of my constituents contacted me ahead of this debate

:31:23.:31:27.

and asked me to say something about her experience. She said to me, I

:31:28.:31:31.

have two children with autism who find going out overwhelming. I have

:31:32.:31:36.

one that will try and hide and the other who will show, become

:31:37.:31:41.

aggressive or laugh hysterically. We are stared at by the public and

:31:42.:31:46.

comments are made about my ability to parent or that my children are

:31:47.:31:54.

spoiled. My eldest is aware of these comments and it causes her

:31:55.:31:59.

psychological distress. As parents, we find different strategies to deal

:32:00.:32:05.

with behaviour. Our daughter was and still is fascinated by Disney

:32:06.:32:10.

cartoons. 20 was younger her favourite was Cinderella, especially

:32:11.:32:19.

the nice. She had soft toys from the Disney store and she took them

:32:20.:32:23.

everywhere. We took her to Disneyland in Paris. Cinderella was

:32:24.:32:29.

out and about. We went to meet her friends. But the mice she met were

:32:30.:32:32.

not the small characters she expected. They were bigger than her.

:32:33.:32:37.

She simply could not cope with that. It was not what she had expected.

:32:38.:32:41.

Like other families, we spent the rest of the holiday checking where

:32:42.:32:52.

the characters would be so that we could avoid meeting them. Many

:32:53.:33:01.

places have face painting for children. Our daughter cannot

:33:02.:33:06.

comprehend when children have their face painted to look like a tiger.

:33:07.:33:11.

She will freak out if she sees it. We have to carefully avoid taking

:33:12.:33:16.

her to such events. She still loves her cartoons and Thomas the Tank

:33:17.:33:24.

Engine which she watches on video so she can pause and rewind sections

:33:25.:33:28.

which appeal to our. After 20 years of this, I could cheerfully strangle

:33:29.:33:35.

the fat controller. I also live in fear of the day in which the video

:33:36.:33:42.

machine finally gives up the ghost. We are lucky. We live in a small

:33:43.:33:49.

town and most people now are. Our daughter is well-known in the local

:33:50.:33:54.

shops and in the charity shops where she looks for videos. She has

:33:55.:34:00.

accepted. Frankly nobody bats an eyelid to her sometimes seemingly

:34:01.:34:06.

odd behaviour. Like many autistic people, she needs the comfort of

:34:07.:34:11.

routine. When we go shopping, we go in a specific order. It might not be

:34:12.:34:16.

logical to anyone else, but that is the order in which it must be done.

:34:17.:34:20.

If you are going to do something different from her usual routine, we

:34:21.:34:24.

need to lay the groundwork well in advance. Explained what we are

:34:25.:34:30.

doing, when and why. Let her think it through, mull it over for some

:34:31.:34:35.

time, discuss the implications with and sometimes we managed to do it. I

:34:36.:34:42.

am conscious that perhaps this all sounds a little depressing. As with

:34:43.:34:47.

any child, there are joys as well as challenges. My daughter's school

:34:48.:34:54.

took her to riding for the disabled. Neither I nor my wife had any

:34:55.:34:58.

background with horses, but she was captivated and formed a real bond

:34:59.:35:04.

with the horse. It was joyful to see her on a horse, concentrating and

:35:05.:35:13.

following instructions. Being very much in charge. On one occasion we

:35:14.:35:24.

went to the stable and find that she was taking stones out of the

:35:25.:35:30.

horseshoe. Back in the 1980s, when we first faced this, things were

:35:31.:35:35.

very different. I was a practising solicitor at the time. My wife was

:35:36.:35:45.

teaching children with special needs. We had difficulty negotiating

:35:46.:35:49.

the system and getting suitable education. We needed a record of

:35:50.:35:54.

needs which was the passport to getting educational resources

:35:55.:35:59.

required. We faced reluctance from professionals to give a clear

:36:00.:36:02.

diagnosis of what was wrong with our daughter. From an education

:36:03.:36:07.

department which said I child should not be labelled, the cynic in me

:36:08.:36:18.

wonders if that was because once it had been recognised facilities and

:36:19.:36:21.

costs needed to be put in place. Then we needed to find a suitable

:36:22.:36:27.

school. We looked at many before we find one we felt offered a way

:36:28.:36:32.

forward. It was not within our local authority area. We had to negotiate

:36:33.:36:37.

around that to ensure funding was available. A deal was done that

:36:38.:36:41.

involved are arranging transport to the school ourselves. That school

:36:42.:36:47.

made a great difference to her. They had an excellent speech therapist.

:36:48.:36:52.

It was a small school with other children with special needs. She

:36:53.:36:57.

flourished. They got her into horse riding. Are things better today?

:36:58.:37:05.

Yes, I think there are. But they are not perfect. A huge amount requires

:37:06.:37:12.

to be done. In Scotland, the Scottish Government have strategy

:37:13.:37:15.

for autism, a real attempt to bring together services to assist people.

:37:16.:37:22.

It is not just in the public sector. In Arbroath we have a fantastic

:37:23.:37:30.

community dentist. We had great difficulty in getting anyone to look

:37:31.:37:37.

at our daughter's teeth. This dentist has been trained in dental

:37:38.:37:45.

care for artistic people. By taking her gradually to the surgery, first

:37:46.:37:51.

to the waiting room and gradually onwards, she got to look at her

:37:52.:37:59.

teeth which I frankly find. That was something brought forward recently.

:38:00.:38:04.

It is not just in the public sector. Aberdeen airport introduced a

:38:05.:38:07.

similar scheme to let autistic people visit the airport and get

:38:08.:38:11.

used to it before their first flight. Cinemas and theatres put on

:38:12.:38:17.

special those where the sound is lowered and lighting is increased.

:38:18.:38:24.

But difficulties remain. Many others have spoken of these. In my

:38:25.:38:30.

experience, the transition from education to after education is very

:38:31.:38:36.

difficult. There are often not many facilities for artistic people. In

:38:37.:38:42.

rural areas, it can be difficult to find somewhere to move onto

:38:43.:38:48.

after-school. There are difficulties regarding the future. When you get

:38:49.:38:54.

to a forts begin to turn to what happens when the Aragon are are no

:38:55.:39:01.

longer able? My daughter will never be able to live an independent life.

:39:02.:39:06.

That is something all authorities need to look at and consider a groin

:39:07.:39:13.

problem. If there is one thing I would ask those watching or reading

:39:14.:39:17.

this debate to take away from it, it is to get hold of this excellent

:39:18.:39:23.

booklet from the National artistic society. Next time they see a child

:39:24.:39:29.

being loud or inappropriate, or a parent having difficulty controlling

:39:30.:39:33.

a child, do not assume it is bad parenting or bad behaviour.

:39:34.:39:39.

Something else may be going on. Think it could well be autism. Thank

:39:40.:39:46.

you. I would like to congratulate the right honourable member and

:39:47.:39:57.

other sponsors, for ensuring the House can discuss this important

:39:58.:40:02.

issue. I would like to echo the remark made previously. We have had

:40:03.:40:07.

many excellent contributions today. I would like to thank those who have

:40:08.:40:16.

shared their experience as parents. I welcome and support one of the

:40:17.:40:21.

Central calls in the motion for an enhanced awareness campaign. Raising

:40:22.:40:26.

public understanding would break down some stigma, tackle prejudices

:40:27.:40:32.

and help explain the conditions to those who remain unaware of the

:40:33.:40:37.

realities. Many charities work in this field. They fight for people

:40:38.:40:47.

with autism and their families. Campaigning for proper diagnosis,

:40:48.:40:51.

decent treatment, social acceptance and dignified lives for people with

:40:52.:40:55.

autism. I commend the organisations and campaigns to raise awareness.

:40:56.:41:07.

The National Autistic Society has brought some important survey

:41:08.:41:13.

evidence to our survey. We have already heard it but it is worth

:41:14.:41:17.

reiterating. Whilst almost all of the country have heard about autism,

:41:18.:41:23.

just 16% has any real understanding of the condition and this reveals a

:41:24.:41:28.

huge gulf between awareness and understanding, which is why a

:41:29.:41:32.

national campaign to develop better awareness of the realities of autism

:41:33.:41:36.

would be a welcome development. It should be led by and involves fully

:41:37.:41:39.

people with autism and their families so that the campaign is

:41:40.:41:43.

authentic and focused on issues that really matter. Research by ambitious

:41:44.:41:49.

for autism highlights two important audiences. Teachers in particular.

:41:50.:41:57.

Because 40% of teachers say they lack the knowledge they need. And

:41:58.:42:03.

employers and job centres. Because while 99% of young people with

:42:04.:42:09.

autism say that they want to work, only 15% of adults with autism are

:42:10.:42:14.

in employment. It is clear that people with autism and their

:42:15.:42:17.

families face terrible prejudice and stigma. National survey figures show

:42:18.:42:24.

that too many people and their families feel socially isolated,

:42:25.:42:27.

don't go out because they are worried about how the public will

:42:28.:42:32.

react to their autism. As my right honourable friend shared, people

:42:33.:42:43.

don't understand what an abdab is. People have been asked to leave

:42:44.:42:48.

faces. It is a condition which means people have difficulty interpreting

:42:49.:42:55.

the world around them. This condition is compounded by the

:42:56.:42:58.

reactions of people around them. It is obvious we are a long way from

:42:59.:43:02.

public places being safe spaces for people with autism. I welcome the

:43:03.:43:09.

fact that Liverpool has launched a bid to become the first autism

:43:10.:43:12.

friendly city but we need to become a autism friendly nation. When the

:43:13.:43:22.

minister responds, I note that you said Manchester. I hope the minister

:43:23.:43:29.

will commit to supporting the autism friendly awards to ensure that

:43:30.:43:32.

public buildings and spaces are autism friendly. I'm pleased that

:43:33.:43:37.

the House of Commons has started work on this earlier in the year and

:43:38.:43:40.

I hope we can make progress to make sure that all workplace via comes an

:43:41.:43:51.

autism friendly place of work. We have heard about the challenges

:43:52.:43:53.

related to the Department for health. I would like to ask the

:43:54.:44:00.

Minister if he can tell us what departments beyond the Department of

:44:01.:44:07.

Health are doing to help with autism. And what commitments he will

:44:08.:44:12.

make today to ensure they do. If I could turn to the second substantive

:44:13.:44:15.

point of the motion concerning the length of time it takes to diagnose

:44:16.:44:20.

someone, it has been raised by so many honourable members on all sides

:44:21.:44:25.

of the house today. Autism requires an early diagnosis. Individuals with

:44:26.:44:30.

autism and their families are proper supported. As we have heard adults

:44:31.:44:35.

are having to wait more than two years for a diagnosis and with

:44:36.:44:39.

children in the figure now stands at 3.6 years. On my weekly visits

:44:40.:44:42.

across the country I hear many of the stories that have been echoed in

:44:43.:44:47.

the chamber today. In my own city of Liverpool there are no fewer than

:44:48.:44:51.

700 families waiting for an assessment. It's totally

:44:52.:44:54.

unacceptable, it is far too long. It compounds the condition and makes

:44:55.:44:59.

bad situation worse. I have heard first-hand from the Liverpool

:45:00.:45:02.

autistic children's Alliance, parents group which meets in my

:45:03.:45:05.

constituency, about the very specific concerns they have and

:45:06.:45:10.

experience while waiting for diagnosis, particularly around

:45:11.:45:14.

education. A point made today, not getting an education health and care

:45:15.:45:18.

plan. The fact that those parents do not get access to support training

:45:19.:45:21.

to help them support their children, and the challenges of appropriate

:45:22.:45:27.

education. We've heard that the nice quality standard on autism makes it

:45:28.:45:31.

clear that once referred, people should wait no longer than three

:45:32.:45:34.

months before having their first diagnostic appointment. This

:45:35.:45:38.

standard is clearly not being met across the country. It means that

:45:39.:45:42.

thousands of people are being let down. Given the importance of prompt

:45:43.:45:45.

and accurate diagnosis I hope the Minister can give us a commitment

:45:46.:45:51.

ask and England to report autism diagnosis waiting times for every

:45:52.:45:53.

single clinical commissioning group in the country. And to hold them to

:45:54.:45:58.

account when the weights are too long. I hope the Minister will also

:45:59.:46:03.

ensure that NHS England's new autism care pathway reduces those waiting

:46:04.:46:12.

times. We know that research presented by Autistica that the

:46:13.:46:17.

costs associated with autism are more than cancer, heart disease and

:46:18.:46:21.

stroke combined, it is at least ?32 billion each year, including

:46:22.:46:26.

expenditure on hospital services, home health care, special education,

:46:27.:46:29.

respite care as well as lost earnings for people with autism and

:46:30.:46:34.

their parents. But despite this cost the outcomes for people with autism

:46:35.:46:39.

remain so poor. We had during the debate about comorbidities, people

:46:40.:46:43.

experiencing extremely high rates of mental illness, physical health,

:46:44.:46:47.

social exclusion, lack of employment and education opportunities and

:46:48.:46:52.

tragically, early deaths. We've had a number of contributions discussing

:46:53.:46:57.

and raising the issue about the amount spent on awareness. But

:46:58.:47:01.

research also has the power to improve all these poor outcomes.

:47:02.:47:05.

Research currently being spent on autism remains incredibly low, just

:47:06.:47:10.

?3 million per year. And that is a paltry amount given the scale of the

:47:11.:47:15.

challenge. I have been aware that mental illness is also a huge

:47:16.:47:19.

challenge for people with autism. People with autism are far more

:47:20.:47:22.

likely to have at least one mental health condition, and the burden of

:47:23.:47:27.

anxiety and depression for people with autism is fast. We've heard

:47:28.:47:31.

many personal accounts during the course of the debate today. I hope

:47:32.:47:34.

the Minister will address them in his remarks. I just want to complete

:47:35.:47:39.

on an important point about the fact that too many people with autism in

:47:40.:47:43.

our country are dying too young. The figures are really startling if we

:47:44.:47:46.

look at the research that was shared and was in the press only a few

:47:47.:47:53.

months ago. People on autism Spectrum die 18 years earlier than

:47:54.:47:57.

the general population. For autistic people with a learning disability

:47:58.:48:00.

this figure rises to 30 years earlier. I cannot be acceptable in

:48:01.:48:05.

2016 in our country, and we know that those with low abilities are at

:48:06.:48:12.

risk of suicide in particular. The most disturbing statistics, people

:48:13.:48:16.

with autism have a nine times higher risk of committing suicide. It is a

:48:17.:48:22.

scandal. We have heard from other contributions, on this particularly

:48:23.:48:27.

pertinent issue that needs addressing, particularly in light of

:48:28.:48:30.

the fact that suicide prevention services are not providing autism

:48:31.:48:37.

appropriate services. I know from listening and hearing

:48:38.:48:39.

representations from many autism organisations that phone lines in

:48:40.:48:43.

particular for people that might be having suicidal thoughts are not

:48:44.:48:47.

appropriate for somebody with autism. I hope the Minister will

:48:48.:48:50.

address this issue around suicide prevention strategies. I welcome

:48:51.:48:56.

this debate, we've had many superb and thoughtful speeches today, and I

:48:57.:48:59.

hope that the family is listening to our deliberations will feel we are

:49:00.:49:02.

addressing their very many concerns and I look forward to the Minister's

:49:03.:49:09.

response. Minister Alistair Burt. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It

:49:10.:49:14.

is just about 24 years since I first walked into Richmond house as

:49:15.:49:20.

Parliamentary Undersecretary for Social Security and in that time

:49:21.:49:24.

I've had the privilege of being involved in many debates which the

:49:25.:49:33.

be like the common view outside the space that we even know nothing

:49:34.:49:38.

about the subjects or we are not involved, or we don't care. I would

:49:39.:49:42.

put this debate right up there with the very best that demonstrates that

:49:43.:49:46.

none of those things are true. We've heard remarkable speeches. 25

:49:47.:49:52.

backbench contributions, which is a tribute both to colleagues and to

:49:53.:49:55.

the chair for making sure that everything could be done. And it's

:49:56.:50:01.

not possible, as indeed be honourable lady mentioned, to cover

:50:02.:50:04.

everything, or even everyone's speech as we normally do, but the

:50:05.:50:10.

contributions from the member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, Birmingham

:50:11.:50:14.

Yardley, and Angus are particularly noteworthy. In giving a sense of

:50:15.:50:22.

what it must be like. And we are indebted to all of you for being

:50:23.:50:26.

able to say what you have said in the way that you have said it.

:50:27.:50:30.

Couple of other speeches just mentioned, my right honourable

:50:31.:50:36.

friend the member for North Norfolk. And again the moving story of the

:50:37.:50:39.

nine-year-old boy that many of us heard that was very difficult. The

:50:40.:50:44.

honourable member for Barrow in Furness talking about the media

:50:45.:50:48.

response to this in both the programme that he mentioned and the

:50:49.:50:51.

book, made a significant contribution. The honourable lady

:50:52.:50:55.

and the member for dollar general Wood, can I thank her for the way in

:50:56.:50:59.

which she brought the young man's case to me, and can assure her that

:51:00.:51:05.

not all done and dusted yet. There are some very difficult aspects of

:51:06.:51:08.

that case that worry me hugely. We will be talking about it further. I

:51:09.:51:13.

made absolutely certain that the parents were involved in the case of

:51:14.:51:20.

because the point makes that all too often people are not involved and

:51:21.:51:24.

somehow excluded, that has got to stop. And it is absolutely vital as

:51:25.:51:28.

far as I am concerned that people will be thoroughly engaged. I'd like

:51:29.:51:33.

to start by commending the member who moved the motion, I can't

:51:34.:51:40.

remember who it was, now. Can I add my congratulations to my right

:51:41.:51:44.

honourable friend, not only in moving the debate but the

:51:45.:51:47.

extraordinary work she has done over the years in relation to this. We

:51:48.:51:52.

are really all indebted. In a recent adjournment debate I recognise the

:51:53.:51:55.

need for a full discussion and mentioned that we could do with this

:51:56.:51:58.

debate and I'm very grateful that we have that opportunity. By way of

:51:59.:52:05.

preliminary mark I would like to say that a number of honourable members

:52:06.:52:08.

have highlighted that the importance of recognising that autism is not a

:52:09.:52:13.

person's defining characteristic, and many colleagues, in particular

:52:14.:52:19.

those with their own children, made points about the qualities that

:52:20.:52:22.

autistic people have and that's very important. In a couple of weeks'

:52:23.:52:27.

time I'm going to hitch in Lego club which is a club started by parents

:52:28.:52:34.

of children whose particular skills, were certainly in relation to

:52:35.:52:37.

detail, the bits and pieces they do. I'm looking forward to going to see

:52:38.:52:41.

that. It's very important we don't just find people in this particular

:52:42.:52:47.

way. -- define people. The changes we make every day to attitudes,

:52:48.:52:51.

services and facilities can mean the difference between ambition thwarted

:52:52.:52:56.

an opportunity fulfilled. The best campaigns, those intended for the

:52:57.:53:00.

benefit of the common good, are not made from some central point of

:53:01.:53:04.

government, but by people on the ground. Autism awareness is being

:53:05.:53:09.

addressed by the National Autistic Society in their excellent campaign

:53:10.:53:12.

which was during world autism awareness week. I went to see not

:53:13.:53:17.

only a little boy who was the subject of the film, but also his

:53:18.:53:22.

own family, because there are often siblings of those who have autism

:53:23.:53:26.

and they need to be cared for and valued as well. And sometimes there

:53:27.:53:30.

can be issues. It was nice to see the whole family, and it was a

:53:31.:53:34.

remarkable piece of film. I also want to highlight the work the

:53:35.:53:37.

Department for health has taken forward with the large network of

:53:38.:53:43.

autism charities. This encourages local organisations, services and

:53:44.:53:46.

companies to become autism champions by training staff in autism

:53:47.:53:49.

awareness. There is a lot more to do. I have no time to deal with all

:53:50.:53:53.

the subjects raised but in accordance with what has become my

:53:54.:53:59.

usual practice, because I seem to speak in fastly oversubscribed

:54:00.:54:02.

debates, what I will do is pick out the questions that colleagues have

:54:03.:54:05.

raised and answer them by letter. But if colleagues don't mind I will

:54:06.:54:10.

answer them in the same letter and then put that letter in the library,

:54:11.:54:13.

and then everyone will get a chance to see all the answers to the

:54:14.:54:16.

various questions that are raised that my hard-working team have

:54:17.:54:21.

noted. Let me say a couple of things in answer to the honourable lady and

:54:22.:54:25.

to the key issues of what the government is doing. Something about

:54:26.:54:34.

diagnosis, and something about data. Firstly, while it's easy sometimes

:54:35.:54:38.

to be overwhelmed by what there is still to do, it's important to

:54:39.:54:41.

recognise where we've come from, and many members made that point, and to

:54:42.:54:45.

realise what actually we are doing on a day-to-day basis. Can I commend

:54:46.:54:49.

to the house the programme report on think autism published in January

:54:50.:54:54.

this year, the updated strategy for adults with autism in England. That

:54:55.:54:59.

was put together by myself and my honourable friend the Minister 's

:55:00.:55:02.

for disabled people, children and families, and for visits, probation,

:55:03.:55:08.

rehabilitation and sentencing. It sets out progress against 33 of the

:55:09.:55:12.

think autism actions and describes some work going on across

:55:13.:55:17.

government. It involves education, employment and all sorts of things.

:55:18.:55:21.

There are many things in there, some case studies, it demonstrates what's

:55:22.:55:24.

been done in different places around the country. Can I come straight to

:55:25.:55:29.

diagnosis, which has been so important to similar commentators?

:55:30.:55:36.

Diagnosis is a real challenge for the NHS and its partners. There's no

:55:37.:55:42.

doubt that in some parts of the country, the demand placed on

:55:43.:55:44.

services, and it's often the sheer weight of numbers, means that they

:55:45.:55:49.

can struggle to meet the standards set out by Nice. The mandate to NHS

:55:50.:55:57.

England calls on the NHS to reduce health inequality for people with

:55:58.:56:01.

autism in waiting too long for a diagnosis, it can be one of the

:56:02.:56:04.

health inequalities that autistic people face.

:56:05.:56:08.

The mandate has that. It is important it relates to autism.

:56:09.:56:20.

Locally, CCGs and national NHS England are working down the guide

:56:21.:56:24.

lines. The Department of Health, England has initiated a series of

:56:25.:56:30.

visits, supported by the association of directors and adult services to

:56:31.:56:36.

CCGs and local authorities. They aim to develop a strategic oversight of

:56:37.:56:42.

the challenges in securing timely diagnosis over all ages and share

:56:43.:56:48.

good practices. So looking at the times and doing something about it.

:56:49.:56:52.

Sometimes it is an issue of capacity. Not just a question of

:56:53.:56:55.

pulling a lever and the waiting times coming down. You have to set

:56:56.:57:01.

the waiting times recognising the capacity to deal with them to make

:57:02.:57:08.

sense. But NHS England are trying to go about to understand in order to

:57:09.:57:12.

do something about it. They complete their work and report to the cross

:57:13.:57:16.

government autism progress board in June. That report will be made

:57:17.:57:20.

public. The Department of Health is funding the University of York to

:57:21.:57:24.

report on the type of support available after a diagnosis. The

:57:25.:57:29.

right honourable lady, the mover of the motion, asked that NHS England

:57:30.:57:34.

should collect, publish and monitor information on how long people are

:57:35.:57:38.

waiting for a diagnosis and how many are known to GPs to have autism and

:57:39.:57:46.

NHS England to reflect national guidance that no-one waits longer

:57:47.:57:50.

than three months between referral and being seen for a diagnosis. I

:57:51.:57:56.

can assure her that I am as keen as they are to ensure that we collect

:57:57.:58:01.

data and that data is made public. I am keen that NHS do collect what is

:58:02.:58:08.

known locally and find a way to use that nationally. New data sets have

:58:09.:58:13.

been put in place. It is important to acquire more data it is a matter

:58:14.:58:18.

that I have been made aware of and I'm trying to do something about. If

:58:19.:58:24.

I take one intervention. Will he consider setting a maximum

:58:25.:58:28.

waiting time standard of three months to enter diagnosis? We all

:58:29.:58:32.

know that once you set those, the system responds to it. We need that

:58:33.:58:38.

for anything to change. Mr Deputy Speaker, I do understand

:58:39.:58:42.

that but the capacity has to be there to do the job. It is a fine

:58:43.:58:49.

balance. To set a waiting time amidst a token, knowing it cannot be

:58:50.:58:53.

reached will not work. But the pressure on the system also to do

:58:54.:58:58.

that. And the pressure on the system through collecting data and seeking

:58:59.:59:02.

transparency has its effect. Now there is a real sense in the

:59:03.:59:05.

department that this is something that we have to meet that challenge.

:59:06.:59:13.

I'm looking at what data can best be collected and what data need not be

:59:14.:59:17.

collected but handled locally and how to make the difference and how

:59:18.:59:21.

it is transparent and made known. The Department of Health does not

:59:22.:59:27.

set out how NHS England should not monitor waiting times. That is for

:59:28.:59:32.

them to determine. But they have to demonstrate effectiveness in meeting

:59:33.:59:37.

the mandate requirement through which we respect NHS England to

:59:38.:59:50.

reduce the gap between meeting people with these problems. I am

:59:51.:59:57.

interested in how NHS make sure that CCGs are doing their job. I suspect

:59:58.:00:00.

that the members of the House are interested too. I can use that

:00:01.:00:04.

concern and interest to ensure that the monitoring job is done and it is

:00:05.:00:10.

transparent. In terms of GPs, which my right honourable friend

:00:11.:00:14.

mentioned. GPs maintain a register of people with learning disabilities

:00:15.:00:21.

that may include patient who have autism where diagnosed. As

:00:22.:00:25.

mentioned, autism may not be the only condition that an individual

:00:26.:00:33.

may have. The Royal College of General practitioner's autism

:00:34.:00:39.

initiative is looking at the idea of an autism indicator in general

:00:40.:00:42.

practice, that is working atten early stage. As recommended by the

:00:43.:00:48.

independent health taskforce, there is a five year plan for the

:00:49.:00:52.

development of mental health data to be published by the end of the year.

:00:53.:00:59.

To set out future data, requirements and development for data that will

:01:00.:01:06.

form data requirements for autism. I will make sure that you are kept

:01:07.:01:12.

up-to-date with data as I am kept up-to-date with data requests. And

:01:13.:01:20.

if I can conclude finally, this has been a terrific debate that has

:01:21.:01:25.

coffered many different things but I wish to sum it up: Autism should not

:01:26.:01:31.

be a barrier to enjoying the access afforded to others.

:01:32.:01:41.

Many other charities and groups are doing great work helping us realise

:01:42.:01:45.

that sometimes we are the barrier. Beyond legislation, it is only

:01:46.:01:50.

through empathy and understanding that true progress can be maintained

:01:51.:01:55.

and sustained. Everybody feels like it is a fight, I have heard that too

:01:56.:02:00.

often as too many of us have. Everything that the department does

:02:01.:02:05.

has to make that sense of fight that bitser until actually they don't

:02:06.:02:09.

have to fight at all as it is taken for granted. Finally, think

:02:10.:02:13.

differently about thinking differently. Absolutely. That is

:02:14.:02:17.

what we should all do. I hope that is a message from a very consensual

:02:18.:02:24.

House of Commons this afternoon. This has an instant effect. A green

:02:25.:02:29.

card said: Thank you so much but please don't let it be kids, kids,

:02:30.:02:35.

kids, don't forget the older adults. I think that the debate brought out

:02:36.:02:39.

the best in Parliament across the board. There have been really

:02:40.:02:44.

important contributions and some amazing personal testimony. From

:02:45.:02:49.

members that are clearly concerned about what is happening to their

:02:50.:02:53.

constituents and clearly concerned in this area. Progress has been

:02:54.:02:58.

meat, no doubt but the theme has been not enough support and

:02:59.:03:00.

understanding. That has come across too clearly. I want to thank all of

:03:01.:03:05.

those colleagues that participated in the debate. I know that

:03:06.:03:10.

Government is listening. I myself raised with the Cabinet Minister the

:03:11.:03:16.

lack of people on the autistic spectrum put forward for public

:03:17.:03:20.

appointments. Yesterday I had a letter that it was asked that the

:03:21.:03:25.

centre of public appointments must work to improve divert and the

:03:26.:03:29.

representation of autistic candidates, that means that the

:03:30.:03:32.

people on the autism spectrum can achieve right to the top of our

:03:33.:03:35.

system. I thank the minister for his

:03:36.:03:40.

assurances on data collection. I am looking forward to reading his

:03:41.:03:45.

letter he is placing to all of us in the library. I thank him for the

:03:46.:03:49.

work he has done. But also, I thank him for the work that is yet to

:03:50.:03:56.

come. The question is as on the order

:03:57.:04:00.

paper as many of that opinion say aye. The contrary no. The ayes have

:04:01.:04:05.

it. We now come to the debate on HRMC's

:04:06.:04:13.

building future plan. Chris Steve reasons to move.

:04:14.:04:19.

Thank you. I beg to move the motion as on the order paper. I should like

:04:20.:04:25.

to draw your's and others attention to the entry in the register's

:04:26.:04:34.

member of interest, the position's chair and as an activist trade

:04:35.:04:39.

unionist. I like to thank you for the support

:04:40.:04:45.

in securing the debate and to the back bencher's committee for

:04:46.:04:48.

granting it. I hope you will allow to wish CAVHen

:04:49.:04:54.

Thomas well on what is his last day of work in this place. He arrived in

:04:55.:05:00.

the House in 1989, then becoming a door keeper in 2000 with nine years

:05:01.:05:10.

in the Members' Lobby and seven years in the committee's Lobby. We

:05:11.:05:17.

wish him well as he returns to his beloved island of St Helena.

:05:18.:05:26.

HMRC published plans for the future structure of HMRC. Building our

:05:27.:05:30.

future. It is important to note that the plans are issued by the

:05:31.:05:35.

department rather than via a ministerial statement. This is

:05:36.:05:40.

unsatisfactory, given the extent of the impact of the plan to include

:05:41.:05:48.

the closure of 90% of its office network and staffing reductions of

:05:49.:05:56.

thousands in post. The HMRC employs 1005 members of staff. At 2015, the

:05:57.:06:06.

figure stands at almost 58,000, a 50% reduction almost.

:06:07.:06:11.

There is a call to move to 13 reek that will hubs and four specialist

:06:12.:06:15.

areas. They seek to make further job cuts to bring the head count down to

:06:16.:06:21.

50,000, a further 8,000 lower. There is also suggested that the intention

:06:22.:06:25.

is to reduce the staffing to had 1,000.

:06:26.:06:30.

The timeline for the -- 41,000. The time line is that the first 21

:06:31.:06:36.

offices to be relosicated by March 2017. With the second phase of 37

:06:37.:06:42.

office closures to be taking place between June 2017 and March 2018. It

:06:43.:06:49.

is proposed that HMRC will be based in 13 large offices with 95% of the

:06:50.:06:58.

remaining site to work there. On the 16th of February, HMRC issued

:06:59.:07:03.

redundancy notices to 152 members of staff. 60% of them are members of

:07:04.:07:15.

the trade union. This is a large number at any one

:07:16.:07:22.

instance. I am grateful for giving way on this from my honourable

:07:23.:07:28.

friend. He is aware of the redundancy notices, imposed on mine

:07:29.:07:35.

that work in the Glenrothes office scheduled to close in end of June

:07:36.:07:41.

this year. When it was announced, the assurances were told me and what

:07:42.:07:46.

happened in practice was that their members, many of whom had given 13

:07:47.:07:53.

and 14 years of service to the job were made to feel that they did not

:07:54.:07:59.

matter. Employees were asked to accept relocations which would have

:08:00.:08:04.

spent more time commuting than at work and employees with care

:08:05.:08:08.

commitments expected to work more than 2 hours from home. It was even

:08:09.:08:13.

claimed that the distances that they were told to troveel were taken in a

:08:14.:08:18.

straight line, that was impossible to achieve unless they swam across

:08:19.:08:25.

the Firth of Forth. Is there a reason to believe that employees of

:08:26.:08:35.

the company should be treated any less than employees of the past? And

:08:36.:08:44.

I think it is right to be concerned about some of the practices that we

:08:45.:08:50.

are hearing about from trade union members based at HMRC and staff

:08:51.:08:58.

members the at HMRC where they are pulled into meetings and been denied

:08:59.:09:02.

representation. If there is a meeting between a manager and

:09:03.:09:07.

employee that discusses future job prospects, I expect the trade union

:09:08.:09:11.

to have access to the meetings, perhaps the minister can come on to

:09:12.:09:17.

that. I will come into other areas. Also, I will be explaining the

:09:18.:09:22.

travel times and some of the issues later on. But I give way.

:09:23.:09:28.

I thank you giving way. It is my understanding from my experiences of

:09:29.:09:32.

trade union rep that when redundancies are announced it is

:09:33.:09:36.

compulsory to consult with the train unions and the members of staff are

:09:37.:09:41.

entitled to have representation? That is my experience too.

:09:42.:09:46.

When I was a trade union rep, I do agree that is a point that we do

:09:47.:09:50.

need to address and I hope that the minister will do that.

:09:51.:09:58.

I will give way. I think that database thank him for giving way.

:09:59.:10:04.

Does he recognise that some people are receiving redundancies by

:10:05.:10:08.

e-mail, not even face to face. That is interesting.

:10:09.:10:14.

And yesterday giving the right to E ballot but it is OK for compulsory

:10:15.:10:21.

redundancy notices to be issued by electronic means, perhaps the

:10:22.:10:25.

Government will take that into account when discussing the Trade

:10:26.:10:30.

Union Bill too. We believe that the HMRC and the Government want to send

:10:31.:10:34.

a signal using this number of staff to demonstrate how they will go

:10:35.:10:39.

about the matter of this closure arising from the building of the

:10:40.:10:43.

future plan and we find it unacceptable and not acting in good

:10:44.:10:49.

faith. I thank him for giving way. There is

:10:50.:10:55.

a concern that a number of the arguments given in 2014 for Scotland

:10:56.:10:59.

remaining in the union are beginning to unravel. We were told that

:11:00.:11:05.

separation shipyards and the steel industry would be at risk and a

:11:06.:11:10.

benefit of the union was the Civil Service employees that benefitted

:11:11.:11:12.

from the United Kingdom and Scotland. Now it seems on all of the

:11:13.:11:15.

points the case is unravelling? My honourable friend raises a fair

:11:16.:11:27.

point. Some were told that officers would close if they were to vote for

:11:28.:11:35.

independence. Workers in my experience came to an individual

:11:36.:11:39.

choice in terms of the referendum. I don't think some of those scare

:11:40.:11:44.

stories were accepted by many parts of the workforce. Again we see

:11:45.:11:49.

rhetoric being used around the constitution that places will close,

:11:50.:11:53.

and it's not an independent Scotland closing those offices, we find, it's

:11:54.:11:58.

the Tory government. In preparing for today's debate I came across a

:11:59.:12:02.

debate on the den Inland Revenue from 30 years ago in the other

:12:03.:12:08.

place. Contribution from Baron Helton, a former chairman of the

:12:09.:12:11.

Public Accounts Committee, chair of the Inland Revenue staff

:12:12.:12:15.

Association. It stood out. Because what he said then was the human

:12:16.:12:19.

factor was the ultimate right, and there is no substitute for it. No

:12:20.:12:24.

computers will deal with taxpayers who require consideration and

:12:25.:12:28.

attention, and to whom some measure of discretion or consideration may

:12:29.:12:32.

be due. Those words are as appropriate today as they were in

:12:33.:12:37.

1983. It would seem to me part of an ethos that all of us across parties

:12:38.:12:43.

should endorse as part of public services. Sadly those behind HMRC's

:12:44.:12:48.

building of the future are taking the wrecking ball to those

:12:49.:12:51.

foundations, demolishing not just the future of HMRC buildings, but

:12:52.:12:58.

hammering the staff, the taxpayer and the public. If they are allowed

:12:59.:13:01.

to proceed, towns and cities across these isles will be at the forefront

:13:02.:13:06.

of yet more ideological austerity. Hard-working and conscientious staff

:13:07.:13:09.

will once again be expected to clean up the mess. And taxpayers will foot

:13:10.:13:14.

the bill for the short-sightedness and short termism of successive

:13:15.:13:17.

governments and Treasury 's ministers. HMRC are not building a

:13:18.:13:23.

future, they are destroying it. 15 years ago Inland Revenue Customs and

:13:24.:13:28.

Excise combined had 701 offices across the country. We've been asked

:13:29.:13:33.

to accept today that the 13 centres proposed by HMRC could possibly

:13:34.:13:38.

replicate that kind of number. Mr Deputy Speaker, if there is anyone

:13:39.:13:41.

who believes that citizens of Penrith can better be served by a

:13:42.:13:47.

super-centre in Manchester compared to Carlisle, or those important

:13:48.:13:50.

reason from Edinburgh against Aberdeen, or the people of Penzance

:13:51.:13:55.

from Bristol. We are asked to believe that the best interest of

:13:56.:14:00.

the taxpayer and of society on a system that has staff in Glasgow

:14:01.:14:05.

travelling to meet people who have travelled halfway. Sitting down at

:14:06.:14:12.

some neutral location to discuss an individual, sensitive and

:14:13.:14:16.

confidential tax affair. I am told one of these neutral locations is

:14:17.:14:19.

what can only be described as a hut in a public park. I'm told it and if

:14:20.:14:24.

I'd not heard this with my own ears I would not have believed it, that

:14:25.:14:32.

HMRC staff are advised to take a long jumper and a bag of grapes to

:14:33.:14:40.

these meetings. A look at the latest of satisfaction survey from HMRC

:14:41.:14:43.

unfortunately makes it all too easy to believe. It would make some

:14:44.:14:48.

informative bedtime reading for those behind this closure programme.

:14:49.:14:51.

Fully 2% of staff strongly agree with the statement "I feel change is

:14:52.:15:07.

due in HMRC, and when change is better". 6% would recommend it as a

:15:08.:15:14.

place to work. 3% strongly agree that HMRC as a whole is managed

:15:15.:15:19.

well. On measure after measure, time after time, staff at HMRC are

:15:20.:15:23.

demoralised, demotivated and depressed. I ask honourable members,

:15:24.:15:30.

what other outcome would come from the shattering of office after

:15:31.:15:35.

office around the country? How infused would anyone be knowing that

:15:36.:15:38.

in a matter of months their workplace is to be closed, and

:15:39.:15:41.

yourself, your friends and colleagues are to be relocated miles

:15:42.:15:45.

away? I rather suspect that those behind this scheme are to be told

:15:46.:15:49.

tomorrow that their palatial offices are to be shuffled off from London

:15:50.:15:54.

to Norwich, Peterborough, the staff in these offices, there may well be

:15:55.:16:00.

a murmur or two of discontent escaping from their lips. Staff are

:16:01.:16:06.

entitled to ask exactly why a government that invents catchphrase

:16:07.:16:10.

after catchphrase for regional policy, from the northern powerhouse

:16:11.:16:17.

to the Midlands engine is intent on such a centralised agenda. You may

:16:18.:16:20.

well ask why they are being shunted into sidings rather than provided an

:16:21.:16:25.

express service. Colleagues will later touch on the impact these

:16:26.:16:28.

closures will have on their own constituencies so I will not dwell

:16:29.:16:31.

for too long on the specific towns and cities that will be hit, and how

:16:32.:16:35.

hard they will be hit. I will give way now. May I think the honourable

:16:36.:16:42.

member for giving way. Believe me, it is not merely on a geographic

:16:43.:16:46.

basis that there is a loss of service, but there are specific

:16:47.:16:50.

services which are being abandoned. For example HMRC has announced

:16:51.:16:53.

recently the abandonment of its valuation check service for SMEs,

:16:54.:17:00.

completely compromising employee shared ownership schemes. I am aware

:17:01.:17:06.

of that. I think my honourable friend for that intervention. But to

:17:07.:17:11.

come back to the point. To see cities like Middlesbrough with the

:17:12.:17:15.

third highest unemployment rate in England, with nearly 3000 already on

:17:16.:17:18.

the dole, to see cities like Derrey with the highest unemployment rate

:17:19.:17:23.

of any constituency, to see these places on a list guaranteed to

:17:24.:17:27.

create job losses at HMRC and in the wider community, is to see a plan

:17:28.:17:33.

that will, in the words of PCS, consciously increase unemployment in

:17:34.:17:39.

areas. Mr Deputy Speaker, I suspect the words make way may come up in

:17:40.:17:43.

the course of today's debate. I referred earlier to over 700 offices

:17:44.:17:51.

formerly used by HMRC. They snapped up over 130 of these for their

:17:52.:17:55.

offshore property portfolio. After loading themselves up with that in

:17:56.:17:59.

order to front up their side of this rotting Sharad with the then

:18:00.:18:04.

government, 84% with funding to acquire the contract. This shabby

:18:05.:18:10.

deal with a shabby company comes to an end in 2021. For the privilege of

:18:11.:18:15.

renting publicly built offices sold off for a song, HMRC will have the

:18:16.:18:21.

right to occupy buildings with releases based on market terms after

:18:22.:18:25.

that date. That is very generous of them. I commend a report into this

:18:26.:18:34.

deal in 2009. It is redolent of phrases such as "The department has

:18:35.:18:38.

not achieved value for money" or "The Department did not fully

:18:39.:18:45.

appreciate the risks", and where it is achieving value for money. The

:18:46.:18:49.

honourable member for East Hampshire admitted in this house last year

:18:50.:18:52.

that the end life of these contracts are presented a one-off opportunity

:18:53.:18:57.

to make this change to the estate footprint. This is part of the truth

:18:58.:19:02.

behind these closures. PFI deal worth billions from the public purse

:19:03.:19:06.

used to enrich the Bermuda dossier of a corporate entity, with the

:19:07.:19:11.

public left with nothing at the end of 20 years except the right to sign

:19:12.:19:15.

a commercial lease. I will end in the words of PCS member and in HMRC

:19:16.:19:25.

member, one of my constituents "Whilst my branch welcomes the news

:19:26.:19:28.

of a slight increase in jobs in Glasgow, we're proposing it if it

:19:29.:19:35.

comes in the cost of jobs elsewhere. That is not a price worth paying for

:19:36.:19:41.

the sake of a few extra jobs in Glasgow. If anyone should know about

:19:42.:19:47.

prices, it is an employee of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. Sadly

:19:48.:19:50.

it seems that their superiors know very little about value. It is a

:19:51.:19:59.

pleasure to follow my honourable friend the member for Glasgow. Could

:20:00.:20:04.

I suggest one thing, that we try to aim between five and six minutes to

:20:05.:20:08.

give everybody the same amount of time. I assumed that was an

:20:09.:20:12.

intervention so I get the extra minute. And I thank the honourable

:20:13.:20:20.

member for securing the backbench debate and the backbench committee.

:20:21.:20:25.

This is an important debate. Government can raise money in one of

:20:26.:20:29.

three ways. Create it, borrow it, or raise taxes. The main purpose of

:20:30.:20:35.

HMRC is subject to this debate, is to collect taxes. This enables the

:20:36.:20:39.

government to take back what it has spent on public services. And I want

:20:40.:20:45.

to focus on whether HMRC works, where it is going, and what can be

:20:46.:20:49.

done to change it to make it more accountable. The governance

:20:50.:20:54.

arrangements are quite bizarre for a democracy. Given its importance in

:20:55.:21:00.

collecting taxes, it's incongruous that it is a non-ministerial

:21:01.:21:04.

department. There is no minister to hold to account. On behalf of the

:21:05.:21:10.

people who ostensibly it works for. It is governed by a board, by four

:21:11.:21:14.

out of five non-execs from big business. No representation from the

:21:15.:21:21.

PAYE taxpayer, of which there are 31 million, or even small businesses.

:21:22.:21:25.

There appears to be no accountability, no acting in the

:21:26.:21:28.

public interest. That needs to change. From the occupy movement at

:21:29.:21:35.

Saint Pauls in 2011 to the Panama papers, the public is becoming more

:21:36.:21:38.

aware of what happens to the tax people pay, or in fact don't pay.

:21:39.:21:43.

The fact that after a few lunches, large corporations can get a light

:21:44.:21:47.

touch treatment. Google paid the equivalent of 3% corporation tax. In

:21:48.:21:54.

2011 Starbucks paid no corporation tax. I'm not sure if you know that

:21:55.:21:58.

joke that when people went into Starbucks they wanted to raise the

:21:59.:22:02.

awareness that Starbucks weren't paying tax they used to go in and

:22:03.:22:06.

ask for a copy and they said as their name no tax so that when the

:22:07.:22:13.

barrister came back with the Coffey, they said Coffey for no tax. That

:22:14.:22:19.

has had a huge effect on making people aware that Starbucks were not

:22:20.:22:22.

paying money. It has been pointed out by the International business

:22:23.:22:27.

Times that Shell, British American Tobacco, Lloyds banking group,

:22:28.:22:29.

Vodafone, all pay nothing in corporation tax. You will remember

:22:30.:22:35.

the former head David harm and had ten bunches with KPMG, and they have

:22:36.:22:40.

their tax liability reduced, and they even have a non-exec

:22:41.:22:45.

representative on the board. So where is it going now? Where is HMRC

:22:46.:22:51.

going? Is my honourable friend for Glasgow South West said, and I

:22:52.:22:54.

concur with him, that document is called building our future. Its

:22:55.:22:59.

subtitle should be tearing it down. The future of this country really

:23:00.:23:03.

does depend on the amount of taxes that are put back in the economy

:23:04.:23:07.

here in Britain. So instead of investing in people with skills,

:23:08.:23:13.

expertise, a commitment to public service, institutional memory, HMRC

:23:14.:23:19.

are reducing that capacity. In 2005 there were 105,000 members for HMRC,

:23:20.:23:25.

and in 2016 there are only 58,000, they reduce of nearly 58%. Housing

:23:26.:23:32.

officers to sell off the public estate to a developer, and then

:23:33.:23:37.

replacing it with 30 regional tax centres, actually call centres. They

:23:38.:23:43.

plan to save ?100 million, but they could recoup that if they closed the

:23:44.:23:46.

tax gap. I don't know if you know, the tax gap is the difference

:23:47.:23:52.

between the tax owed and tax collected, and that has amounted to

:23:53.:23:58.

about ?25 billion, to ?34 billion. I think the current figure is about

:23:59.:24:04.

?25 billion. That's a lot of money. But since 2010 only 11 people have

:24:05.:24:08.

been prosecuted by HMRC despite being given a list of 3600 British

:24:09.:24:12.

people who get their money in Switzerland. Revenue and Customs

:24:13.:24:16.

haven't quite worked out that if you have more staff you can actually

:24:17.:24:21.

collect more taxes and the more people you employ, the more tax they

:24:22.:24:25.

pay and contribute to the economy. So no wonder the wealthy, that 1%,

:24:26.:24:29.

are laughing all the way to the Cayman Islands. Mr Deputy Speaker,

:24:30.:24:35.

the closure of the offices are having an important impact in my

:24:36.:24:40.

constituency. They actively, directly affected. Walsall is having

:24:41.:24:44.

to face closure of their HMRC office for the loss of 60 staff. One of my

:24:45.:24:49.

constituents said she may not even qualify to get one of these

:24:50.:24:52.

relocated jobs. And if they are lucky staff will have to go to

:24:53.:24:55.

Birmingham, where actually the rents are high so it will be more

:24:56.:24:59.

expensive, and more expensive. To travel up to Birmingham said they

:25:00.:25:04.

will incur certain costs. My local people in Walsall South will have to

:25:05.:25:07.

call a call centre rather than be the lucky ones to have face-to-face

:25:08.:25:14.

contact like KPMG. The Public Accounts Committee in 2013 said that

:25:15.:25:18.

the telephone services were absolutely abysmal. The Telegraph

:25:19.:25:22.

reported that half of all calls to HMRC were not answered. I could have

:25:23.:25:26.

the impact of millions of people paying the wrong amount of tax. This

:25:27.:25:30.

week in Walsall we've had the news that the HSE might close. We have a

:25:31.:25:35.

local BHS E. Who knows what is going to happen. The closure of HMRC,

:25:36.:25:43.

nearly ?1 million is lost from the local economy and Walsall cannot

:25:44.:25:47.

afford to lose that. TCS also say the plan is not to maximise tax

:25:48.:25:53.

collection, to reduce spending. The opposite of what HMRC's main

:25:54.:25:57.

objective should be. So what can be done?

:25:58.:26:05.

The Joy Of Tax should be required reading for all of us.

:26:06.:26:14.

It said you don't have to be an economist to understand economics.

:26:15.:26:18.

Richard Murphy said HMRC should be a government department in its own

:26:19.:26:23.

right subject to proper parliamentary scrutiny and

:26:24.:26:28.

independent review. Tow have to retain independent Tax Offices with

:26:29.:26:31.

local staff with information about the local economy. Top stop the

:26:32.:26:38.

relocation, invest in staff. HMRC must reduce the tax gap, not the

:26:39.:26:42.

workforce. Then stopping the outflow of capital and give back to the

:26:43.:26:47.

public purse all it is owed. After all it is the government that puts

:26:48.:26:52.

in investment in education, skills, infrastructure that enables

:26:53.:26:54.

communities, companies and the workforce to thrive and to grow.

:26:55.:27:03.

Thank you deputy speaker, I would like to thank my honourable friend

:27:04.:27:08.

for Glasgow south-west for bringing the debate forwardment the issue of

:27:09.:27:12.

tax avoidance has been highlighted in the House with the recent

:27:13.:27:21.

publishment of the Panama papers. There are people shamefully

:27:22.:27:26.

indicated, those who wish to keep their taxes off-shore a secret.

:27:27.:27:30.

Let's be clear, individuals are using shell companies in places like

:27:31.:27:36.

Panama in the British Virgin islands for one purpose only. To hide

:27:37.:27:41.

financial assets from the tax authorities in the country where

:27:42.:27:47.

they do business and then becoming difficult or impossible for tax

:27:48.:27:51.

collection agencies such as HMRC to collect taxes on the wealth.

:27:52.:27:59.

There is recruitment, training and experience needed by tax officials.

:28:00.:28:03.

The very people that the government ensures has enough money to pay for

:28:04.:28:08.

schools, hospitals and pensions. It is in this context that the

:28:09.:28:12.

reorganisation of HMRC must be understood. Since the Government

:28:13.:28:19.

came to power in 2010, it invested greater resources pursuing benefit

:28:20.:28:22.

fraud, rather than going after the real villains, those who funnel

:28:23.:28:25.

billions of pounds out of our country. Figures show that ten times

:28:26.:28:30.

more government inspectors employed to investigate benefit misuse by the

:28:31.:28:35.

poorer in society, than dealing with tax evasion by the wealthiest. The

:28:36.:28:40.

committee of public accounts, reported that a meagre 35 wealthy

:28:41.:28:45.

individuals are being investigated for tax fraud. That is slightly more

:28:46.:28:51.

that can be bothered to turn up on the Government benches today. HMRC

:28:52.:28:55.

did not know how many of these were being persecuted. We have to put it

:28:56.:29:02.

into context, the country still presides over 34 billion this tax

:29:03.:29:06.

gap. A recent discovery that the ownership of the leases of HMRC, I

:29:07.:29:14.

refer to what was mentioned by the friend from Glasgow south-east, it

:29:15.:29:20.

was transferred to a company in 2001, where is this based? The

:29:21.:29:27.

Bahamas. That is right, the HMRC pays rent to a company registered in

:29:28.:29:32.

a tax haven. The Government has scored a massive own goal. Who

:29:33.:29:37.

stands to profit from the sale of HMRC lobingal offices, well, you

:29:38.:29:41.

guessed it, this company again. Why not use the local council offices

:29:42.:29:45.

that may be available, then profits that go from the rents go to the

:29:46.:29:53.

Treasury. The UK Government tends to close 137 local HMRC offices in the

:29:54.:29:57.

UK, two in my constituency of Dundee.

:29:58.:30:02.

Where almost 800 staff are employed. This is driven by the government's

:30:03.:30:08.

austerity obsession, which has seen budgets for government departments

:30:09.:30:12.

and public bodies suffering swinging cuts.

:30:13.:30:20.

And there are the cuts made in 2010. At this moment, half people work at

:30:21.:30:26.

HMRC as there were in 2005. I have stood before here with regards to

:30:27.:30:31.

HMRC to table a number of questions to receive a number of evasive

:30:32.:30:35.

answers. Employees, some with over 30 years of skill and experience,

:30:36.:30:40.

decades of loyal service are abandoned by an organisation to

:30:41.:30:43.

which they dedicated their whole careers. The Caledonia House alone

:30:44.:30:49.

in Dundee, there are ten couples working under the same roof, ten

:30:50.:30:53.

couples that could see their entire income disappear. The proposals are

:30:54.:30:57.

set to destroy the lives of families.

:30:58.:31:06.

Thank you, my honourable friend is making a powerful point and speech

:31:07.:31:13.

on the issue. My own constituents and others in West Lothian will be

:31:14.:31:17.

moved. And in February, the number of redundancies was the biggest ever

:31:18.:31:23.

in the Civil Service. People who are careers and disabilities are

:31:24.:31:26.

affected by the compulsory redundancies and we should be doing

:31:27.:31:30.

all we can to support them and stand up for their jobs.

:31:31.:31:36.

And on that point. . And I agree at a time when it is in consultation,

:31:37.:31:41.

the forced redundancies coming through it is a shame and an

:31:42.:31:46.

embarrassment to all. Relocation to HMRC in Glasgow and

:31:47.:31:51.

Edinburgh will mean job losses in Dundee and a loss of boots on the

:31:52.:31:56.

ground around diminished capacity for contact in the north. Aberdeen

:31:57.:32:04.

is one example of 300 billion out of oil resources in this government

:32:05.:32:09.

without an office. And a group in Inverness will not have

:32:10.:32:13.

representation, not to mention the rural areas between.

:32:14.:32:18.

It is essential for HMRC to offer skill and trained staff in the local

:32:19.:32:22.

areas. I know what a struggle it can be to get through to HMRC on the

:32:23.:32:28.

phone, what sort of business will we come to expect? One of my colleagues

:32:29.:32:33.

has been trying eight times to pay a bill that is due and cannot get

:32:34.:32:39.

through. No-one argues that it makes sense to have huge hospitals in

:32:40.:32:42.

Scotland, one in Edinburgh and Glasgow. If the NHS can maintain

:32:43.:32:50.

recognised standards in thousand of clinics and in hospitals around the

:32:51.:32:56.

country, surely it is possible for the HMRC to do is in a few hundred

:32:57.:33:03.

offices around the country? The fact has been emphasised over and over

:33:04.:33:07.

again in the House by colleagues from all parties. Sufficient

:33:08.:33:11.

resources must be dedicated to HMRC so it can scroti flies sources of

:33:12.:33:15.

income to ensure that the tax due is paid.

:33:16.:33:19.

It is clear to do this, and we need HMRC offices all over the UK served

:33:20.:33:26.

by experienced tax officers with local knowledge. Nobody would

:33:27.:33:31.

ridicule the government for the Government to make a U-turn. HMRC is

:33:32.:33:35.

a public service that pays for itself. Certainly it is less far

:33:36.:33:42.

fetched or counterintuitive than the measures in place, measures designed

:33:43.:33:47.

to boost yet again the income of companies based in off-shore tax

:33:48.:33:52.

havens. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, I would

:33:53.:33:57.

like to thank the honourable member for Glasgow south-west for bringing

:33:58.:34:02.

this before us today. Mr Deputy Speaker, for my constituency in

:34:03.:34:06.

Bootle, the proposals are little short of disastrous. I don't even

:34:07.:34:11.

think that they are rosials, I fear that the Government has made up its

:34:12.:34:16.

mind. But statement, the Government have simply washed their hands off

:34:17.:34:20.

the matter on the grounds that the reorganisation of HMRC has nothing

:34:21.:34:24.

to do with it. It wants us to believe that HMRC is a sort of

:34:25.:34:29.

off-shore haven outside of the Government's control. I know that

:34:30.:34:33.

HMRC collects taxes on behalf of the Government but that is stretching

:34:34.:34:38.

the notion of a tax haven too far. Not only is the Government

:34:39.:34:43.

disinterested in what it cannot control, it is disinterested in what

:34:44.:34:48.

it can control. It has punt a fire wall between it and any decisions

:34:49.:34:53.

about the reorganisation on the grounds at that it is not a matter

:34:54.:35:00.

for it to interfere with. My member from Walsall alludes to that. That

:35:01.:35:07.

the HMRC board should be allowed to get on things unbridled with

:35:08.:35:11.

considerations that it may fall foul of. To put it another way, they have

:35:12.:35:16.

reached for the Treasury's barge pole and are pushing this away from

:35:17.:35:24.

themselves. I have used the word... Thank you for giving way. Would he

:35:25.:35:29.

agree that it is rierny that the same time that the Government wants

:35:30.:35:35.

to maintain an arm's length relationship between the government,

:35:36.:35:39.

the client and the HMRC, and the relationship between HMRC and big

:35:40.:35:45.

businesses, including those tax-dodging, sees that arm very,

:35:46.:35:49.

very short indeed. It is spot on that point. That is what we need in

:35:50.:35:54.

future to look at what those connections are.

:35:55.:36:04.

I have used the word putilanalist to describe the actions of the

:36:05.:36:07.

Government in the past, I think it reasonable to use it again to

:36:08.:36:09.

describe this approach. It is an describe this approach. It is an

:36:10.:36:15.

issue that affects thousands of dedicated Civil Serviceants up and

:36:16.:36:17.

down the country but the Government's claim it is nothing to

:36:18.:36:22.

do with it rings hollow. The Government feels not interfering in

:36:23.:36:27.

the operation of HMRC is so far as the reorganisation is concerned is a

:36:28.:36:33.

matter of its business it is a matter of principle is it should not

:36:34.:36:39.

interfere, so in other words, member caps can get on and do what it wants

:36:40.:36:44.

and government is silent on it, that is disingenuous. The Government is

:36:45.:36:48.

ducking out of its responsibilities again. On the other hand, the

:36:49.:36:55.

Government, as it sees fit, like any medieval baron wants to interfere on

:36:56.:37:00.

all sorts of things that takes its fancy. Yesterday it decided that the

:37:01.:37:07.

attempt to interfere in the running of strewns a mistake, to retreat to

:37:08.:37:12.

save the Prime Minister's bacon, then to so as to get trade union

:37:13.:37:17.

support. It also interferes in the running of

:37:18.:37:22.

schools, housing and the school and who will run them and on a major

:37:23.:37:29.

issue to do with tax raising in revenue in this country, Government

:37:30.:37:33.

is silent that is for somebody else to deal with it. It is not

:37:34.:37:38.

acceptable. So the it has nothing to do with us old chestnut will not

:37:39.:37:47.

wash. Mr Speaker, HMRC has been sizeable in Bootle since the 1960s.

:37:48.:37:52.

There are more than 3,000 staff employed within them. That number is

:37:53.:37:59.

falling day by day. In 2005, HMRC employed 105,000 members that is

:38:00.:38:03.

falling and falling and continues to do so. The so-called Building Our

:38:04.:38:08.

Future, which is a misgnomer, if ever there was one, plans to see it

:38:09.:38:14.

close almost 160 of the offices and to relocate them. I think that a

:38:15.:38:22.

more accurate description is to demolish our future. HMRC has

:38:23.:38:28.

criteria by which it chooses the offs to close. No account it taken

:38:29.:38:35.

on the impact of the communities it affects like mine. The effects also

:38:36.:38:40.

on the lobingal businesses who serve the offices. I had a meeting with

:38:41.:38:46.

senior staff at HMRC of which I thank them for. However on the

:38:47.:38:51.

whole, the criteria that they indicated used to inform the closure

:38:52.:38:55.

decisions, it did not stand up to much scrutiny in relation to the

:38:56.:39:01.

offices in my constituency. I use three examples. First, they talked

:39:02.:39:08.

about the transport links needing to be available and rebust. The Bootle

:39:09.:39:14.

office is three miles from the city centre, the new office is apparently

:39:15.:39:22.

supposedly cited. I am not sure if it is available. Butele has

:39:23.:39:28.

excellent bus links and there is a main bus interchange 200 yards from

:39:29.:39:34.

one of the main offices and a few hundred from another. Both sites are

:39:35.:39:39.

close to five stations on the northern and other lines. They have

:39:40.:39:46.

excellent cross-city regional links no more than 15 minutes ride from

:39:47.:39:51.

Lime Street Station. That is in the city centre, where apparently the

:39:52.:39:55.

office is going to go. You get the point how close with are, yet the

:39:56.:40:02.

Government are saying that transport links are essential, so they should

:40:03.:40:09.

anybody the city centre. There is no discussion with the transport in

:40:10.:40:14.

Merseyside or the Cheshire or others about the factor. The reason I

:40:15.:40:21.

mention Cheshire and other authorities is because if you are

:40:22.:40:26.

deciding on a substantial element of the decision which is on transport

:40:27.:40:32.

links to get people in and out, amongst other things I have not time

:40:33.:40:37.

to touch on, yet you have not discussed it with the transport

:40:38.:40:41.

authorities of the area, tho throws into doubt the robustness of the

:40:42.:40:44.

plan. Consultants were paid a huge amount of money for this. We should

:40:45.:40:50.

get our money back from the consultants, as they pinched it from

:40:51.:40:52.

the taxpayer. We will get everyone in with three

:40:53.:41:03.

minutes each. I will stick to the five minutes. Can I thank the member

:41:04.:41:07.

for Glasgow South West for bringing forward the debate. I hope the

:41:08.:41:11.

intervention from his party colleague about Scottish

:41:12.:41:15.

independence. He'll forgive me if I don't agree with him on that aspect.

:41:16.:41:19.

Anyway, that's a debate for another day. The decision of government to

:41:20.:41:26.

close HMRC offices is one of those decisions that is difficult to

:41:27.:41:29.

follow the logic of, I do have to say. If we look at the issue in

:41:30.:41:35.

Northern Ireland, their sits offices will be closed. Take my own

:41:36.:41:47.

constituency, South Tyrone, the offices are in Enniskillen. For

:41:48.:41:51.

anybody to think that Belfast is an easy location, or that people can

:41:52.:41:54.

relocate from Enniskillen or surrounding areas, it is probably at

:41:55.:41:59.

least an 80 mile journey to wear the office will be in Belfast, on some

:42:00.:42:05.

occasions probably 100 mile journey. It is impractical and impossible for

:42:06.:42:09.

relocation. I just can't follow the logic. Particularly given that

:42:10.:42:15.

Northern Ireland is the one area of the United Kingdom with a land

:42:16.:42:20.

border of another EU state where HMRC is vitally important,

:42:21.:42:23.

especially in areas like Northern Ireland where we have a huge

:42:24.:42:29.

business, illegal business, to be fair, around illegal fuel. The

:42:30.:42:35.

smuggling of illegal fuel. That is a major aspect that I think will not

:42:36.:42:42.

be dealt with just from one office. So we've got to look at this in a

:42:43.:42:46.

more practical and sensible way. So the end result is a loss of jobs at

:42:47.:42:51.

not only that, it is a loss of service to the community. And once

:42:52.:42:58.

you look at the amount of smuggled and laundered fuel in Northern

:42:59.:43:03.

Ireland, and HMRC has the lead on that, it is actually HMRC, so how

:43:04.:43:09.

are they going to carry that out away from the actual border areas

:43:10.:43:14.

where they are supposed to working? One other significant huge impact is

:43:15.:43:19.

the loss, and I know some of these offices have already lost their help

:43:20.:43:24.

desk, but that is a major blow to the communities. I will cite one

:43:25.:43:31.

example. Around foster carers and kinship carers who now must register

:43:32.:43:35.

self-employed. These people are providing a very vital service to

:43:36.:43:39.

our community. They don't want to be tied up with form filling, with

:43:40.:43:44.

filling in tax returns every year. They may have to pay an accountant.

:43:45.:43:49.

Apologies to any accountancy but I don't have to tell you that prices.

:43:50.:43:55.

These people just do not need that. Yes the service is available online.

:43:56.:44:00.

Not everybody can use it online. And we hear about the telephone help

:44:01.:44:05.

desk. I'm told by the Minister that the telephone communication service

:44:06.:44:10.

for HMRC is an increasing choice for enquiries. Well why wouldn't it be,

:44:11.:44:15.

if it's the only choice? I'm also told again by the Minister that HMRC

:44:16.:44:20.

are improving the telephone service, and that they have answered 80% of

:44:21.:44:24.

the telephone calls to them. Well what has happened to the other 20%,

:44:25.:44:29.

I would like to know. I'm told again by the Minister that the average

:44:30.:44:34.

queue time for telephone calls to be answered is 12 minutes. So I'm

:44:35.:44:40.

guessing some people are waiting 20 minutes in the queue. Probably some

:44:41.:44:44.

of those people have already hung up. I have to say, if that's the

:44:45.:44:50.

best we can do for a front-line service, then it is extremely poor

:44:51.:44:55.

and makes the argument for us here for our colleagues and myself that

:44:56.:45:01.

the offices should be kept, and a front-line desks should be there to

:45:02.:45:10.

help and support the community. I congratulate my honourable friend

:45:11.:45:13.

the member for Glasgow South West and others who secured this debate.

:45:14.:45:17.

I am proud to add my name to the motion. HMRC has been dismantling

:45:18.:45:22.

its services in Wales for over 50 years. There were previously 21 tax

:45:23.:45:27.

offices in towns and cities, it is now proposed there will only be one,

:45:28.:45:33.

in south-east Wales. The office in my constituency is one of those

:45:34.:45:36.

threatened by the latest round of closures. This is the home of the

:45:37.:45:44.

tax office's Welsh language unit. It is well placed to attract and retain

:45:45.:45:48.

fluent Welsh speaking staff and offers a naturally Welsh speaking

:45:49.:45:54.

workplace. These service staff have to be close to the clients they are

:45:55.:46:00.

visiting in their own homes. This service, the Welsh language unit, is

:46:01.:46:05.

serving a region of Wales where demand for Welsh language services

:46:06.:46:10.

is at its highest. I would urge every Welsh speaker to take

:46:11.:46:12.

advantage of these services, even those people who lack confidence to

:46:13.:46:17.

use the language to discuss financial matters, you can always

:46:18.:46:21.

drop in English words. Not only is it good for the language, but

:46:22.:46:27.

particularly because the staff are excellent at their job. Beyond their

:46:28.:46:32.

limited Welsh language remit, that HMRC commitment falls short of the

:46:33.:46:36.

statutory requirement to treat English and Welsh language as equal

:46:37.:46:41.

in Wales. Particularly regarding opportunities for businesses and

:46:42.:46:46.

charities such as chapels. And the proposal that the service could be

:46:47.:46:49.

maintained just as well in Cardiff is, to be honest, to be questioned.

:46:50.:46:59.

The county is home to 77,000 Welsh speakers, 65% of the population.

:47:00.:47:03.

Cardiff has fewer than half that number of Welsh speakers and is a

:47:04.:47:08.

capital city where the population is not so concentrated of those

:47:09.:47:12.

speakers. HMRC is moving from the rural region where Welsh is the

:47:13.:47:18.

language of everyday life to an urban centre 150 miles, four hours

:47:19.:47:21.

Drive away, about as far from the great majority of this Welsh

:47:22.:47:26.

speaking community as it is physically possible to go and still

:47:27.:47:31.

be in Wales. If the office building itself is the problem, then I would

:47:32.:47:36.

strongly urge the government to look at alternative sites in that area

:47:37.:47:42.

and urge HMRC to do so. I have corresponded with the financial

:47:43.:47:44.

Secretary of the Treasury on a number of occasions request in this

:47:45.:47:50.

be done. Porthmadog county council has met the Parliamentary under

:47:51.:47:57.

Secretary of State for earlier this year. Discussions have been held,

:47:58.:48:04.

and I am, I hope, right to be quietly optimistic. The DWP office

:48:05.:48:11.

in the same town is perfectly suitable to house the Porthmadog

:48:12.:48:17.

HMRC staff, as is another nearby office. Both are excellent Welsh

:48:18.:48:25.

language workplaces, ideally placed to attract Welsh speakers in the

:48:26.:48:28.

areas where wealth is a community and professional language. This is

:48:29.:48:32.

an important point. Although Cardiff would look to be an ideal centre for

:48:33.:48:37.

Wales, if we want to have good staff who are used to working through the

:48:38.:48:42.

medium of Welsh and want to work in Welsh speaking workplaces, this is

:48:43.:48:44.

the ideal place to keep those experienced staff. Simply closing

:48:45.:48:50.

these offices will be a body blow to devolve tax powers to Wales. On the

:48:51.:48:54.

one hand the Tory government extols the virtue of Wales taking more

:48:55.:48:59.

control over our taxes, something we welcome, just as we have always done

:49:00.:49:02.

for years. On the other hand, the means of administering these powers

:49:03.:49:09.

is being reduced. It should be subject to proper public and

:49:10.:49:11.

parliamentary scrutiny and I welcome the debate today. But there are

:49:12.:49:15.

specific issues unique to Wales which must be addressed before any

:49:16.:49:19.

final decisions are reached. Firstly to recognise that increasing Wales's

:49:20.:49:24.

fiscal powers will require increasing staff capacity as opposed

:49:25.:49:28.

to moving jobs across the border, centralising in south-east Wales.

:49:29.:49:32.

Secondly that an independent economic assessment of the impact of

:49:33.:49:36.

moving the Welsh language unit from Porthmadog to Cardiff be undertaken.

:49:37.:49:43.

Thirdly that HMRC works with the Welsh language commissioner to

:49:44.:49:46.

undertake a language assessment of the impact of moving these jobs from

:49:47.:49:49.

the Welsh speaking community in terms of the effect on the rights of

:49:50.:49:55.

Welsh speaking taxpayers and stuff. And finally, importantly, that HMRC

:49:56.:50:01.

officers consider other locations such as the Department for Work and

:50:02.:50:05.

Pensions, in order to agree a cost-effective solution to retain

:50:06.:50:10.

jobs in the area. I would urge this government to commit to

:50:11.:50:15.

reconsidering the impact of HMRC proposals on its services in Wales,

:50:16.:50:18.

to Welsh speakers, to the destination as a whole, and the

:50:19.:50:23.

significance of well-paid public sector jobs to low-wage economy. I

:50:24.:50:34.

am grateful to my honourable colleague for Glasgow South West for

:50:35.:50:39.

securing this debate on HMRC's building our future plan and to the

:50:40.:50:41.

backbench business committee for making it a success. My constituency

:50:42.:50:49.

is home to one of Scotland's best tax offices, centre one. My hometown

:50:50.:50:55.

of East Kilbride is synonymous with personal tax affairs. It is part of

:50:56.:51:00.

the identity of East Kilbride. My own grandmother worked for the tax

:51:01.:51:05.

office there 30 years ago. HMRC is a major employer, and the movement of

:51:06.:51:11.

thousands of jobs from my town would be a massive blow to the local

:51:12.:51:16.

economy. The planned closures of three sites which have been

:51:17.:51:20.

announced have created anxiety and uncertainty, and only last month the

:51:21.:51:26.

site was announced for closure by 2017. Centre one is proposed to

:51:27.:51:38.

close by 2026. The closure is particularly distressing given the

:51:39.:51:42.

speed of the announcement, and there are real fears the process of

:51:43.:51:45.

closures may be sped up if lease terms cannot be agreed to what will

:51:46.:51:50.

be the last remaining site in East Kilbride in 2026. Despite

:51:51.:51:56.

reassurances from the government I have not been kept up-to-date with

:51:57.:51:59.

the status of the lease negotiations which I would again request from the

:52:00.:52:05.

Minister. Staff I have spoken to have voiced their concerns regarding

:52:06.:52:09.

the closures. They worry about the impact on their ability to do their

:52:10.:52:12.

jobs well. It is a further reduction in staff. They worry about

:52:13.:52:17.

travelling to a new unknown site, and the difficulty in finding

:52:18.:52:21.

suitable childcare given increased time away from home. They are

:52:22.:52:25.

significantly concerned about the lack of consultation and the

:52:26.:52:28.

proposed changes to the civil service compensation scheme if they

:52:29.:52:34.

are to lose their jobs. Thousands of these staff both live and work in

:52:35.:52:37.

East Kilbride and are integral to our economy. They spend money in

:52:38.:52:40.

local shops on their lunch breaks and after work. Their families are

:52:41.:52:46.

part of our community. In order to promote economic growth in my

:52:47.:52:50.

constituency, we want to be in courage and companies and services

:52:51.:52:55.

to relocate to East Kilbride, not to leave it. East Kilbride, he ever

:52:56.:53:00.

business, is one of my main mottos. If the site is close, our local

:53:01.:53:06.

economy is at risk. This must be understood by the government. A few

:53:07.:53:10.

weeks ago I asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he would

:53:11.:53:14.

conduct an impact assessment with regard to closures in my

:53:15.:53:18.

constituency. He assured me that no action would be taken without full

:53:19.:53:22.

consultation of all involved, but this does very little to allay the

:53:23.:53:26.

fears of those impacted, or to give any hope that areas that would be

:53:27.:53:29.

losing such vast workforces will be supported. We require a full impact

:53:30.:53:36.

assessment. The staff at HMRC are specialists in their field and take

:53:37.:53:41.

pride in their roles. This pigeon such as these have a detrimental

:53:42.:53:44.

impact on morale, they create staff stress and anxiety. HMRC staff

:53:45.:53:50.

should be supported to do the vitally important work of making

:53:51.:53:55.

sure that tax income is maximised to pay for our essential services. Not

:53:56.:53:59.

left to worry for their jobs and future. Whilst plans are put

:54:00.:54:02.

together that jeopardise their ability to do these jobs well.

:54:03.:54:10.

HMRC's building our future plan looks to uproot staff from

:54:11.:54:12.

established bases and communities and centralise them in the already

:54:13.:54:17.

well-equipped population centres around the country. The plan has

:54:18.:54:20.

been subject to no robust parliamentary scrutiny or contents

:54:21.:54:26.

of consultation. My constituency can ill afford such a blow. I urge the

:54:27.:54:34.

Minister and HMRC to suspend this plan to work with the dedicated

:54:35.:54:37.

staff at HMRC sites across the country to ensure any proposals

:54:38.:54:44.

brought forward in the future that just the revenue needs of this

:54:45.:54:48.

country, and to conduct impact assessments and engage in confidence

:54:49.:54:53.

of consultation and scrutiny. To conclude, I would once again

:54:54.:54:57.

paraphrase the words of Oscar Wilde. To lose 1's site would be

:54:58.:55:03.

unfortunate. However, under this Conservative MPs, to lose two to

:55:04.:55:07.

three sites in my constituency is nothing but extreme carelessness.

:55:08.:55:15.

Thank you. Can I thank my honourable friend from Glasgow South West for

:55:16.:55:18.

securing this debate. There have been plenty of thought for an robust

:55:19.:55:25.

contributions so far. The members on the side of the house are doing

:55:26.:55:31.

their best to organise the general principles behind the HMRC

:55:32.:55:36.

principles. I think what shines through this debate is a frustration

:55:37.:55:40.

that I share, what we need more than anything else is far more

:55:41.:55:45.

information, far more attempts at justification, so that we can do our

:55:46.:55:49.

job opening, which is thorough scrutiny of these proposals. Because

:55:50.:55:57.

whatever view you take, these are radical proposals, as we've heard.

:55:58.:56:02.

Thousands of jobs could be lost. An 83% cut in the number of HMRC

:56:03.:56:07.

officers. This is not tinkering round the edges in any way, shape or

:56:08.:56:12.

form. Of course it is not only right but absolutely imperative to ask

:56:13.:56:16.

questions about how such cuts and closures will impact HMRC's ability

:56:17.:56:21.

to collect taxes and tackle tax dodging, particularly at a time with

:56:22.:56:26.

huge public concern on this issue. Of course it is right that we ask

:56:27.:56:29.

about the consequences for towns and cities where tax offices are marked

:56:30.:56:34.

for closures. It is absolutely right that we pose the questions that

:56:35.:56:39.

hard-working, dedicated and expert staff in all of our constituencies

:56:40.:56:43.

have raised. And perhaps the Minister will be able to answer some

:56:44.:56:48.

of these questions today. But I cannot emphasise enough, debates on

:56:49.:56:50.

their own will not be enough. What we need are those behind these

:56:51.:56:54.

proposals coming here to explain directly to Parliament, allowing

:56:55.:56:59.

members to get stuck into the nuts and bolts and get behind the

:57:00.:57:02.

management-speak and buzzwords which are too often being passed off as

:57:03.:57:05.

answers. Because if that doesn't happen then staff and taxpayers will

:57:06.:57:10.

be left questioning whether it really is the case that HMRC is

:57:11.:57:16.

building our future, or if instead this is a question of buildings

:57:17.:57:22.

forcing the future. It has been pointed out already, all this takes

:57:23.:57:25.

place in the context of the expiry of the extraordinary contracts that

:57:26.:57:31.

were entered into back in 2001 when 600 or so properties were sold to

:57:32.:57:37.

and then leased back PFI style by HMRC to an offshore company. So in

:57:38.:57:42.

the absence of answers, many would conclude that this is more about

:57:43.:57:46.

digging HMRC out of the hole they jumped into, in 2001, rather than

:57:47.:57:52.

any sort of strategy. And that is the only conclusion open to us.

:57:53.:57:56.

These questions that remain are many and varied but they get right down

:57:57.:58:01.

to the basics. Why is it that 13 is the magic number? Whiteleas 13

:58:02.:58:07.

affable to 30 or 530? Why is it calculated that 1600, if that size

:58:08.:58:16.

is perfectly efficient, why will offices within the range have two"

:58:17.:58:21.

much does it take suitable account of expertise and local knowledge

:58:22.:58:24.

that can be built up by having a presence across the country? For

:58:25.:58:28.

example, Aberdeen and Inverness are experts in oil and fishing. Does it

:58:29.:58:34.

take into account the expertise lost by employees unable to travel to new

:58:35.:58:38.

locations? Brochures and press releases tell us savings of ?100

:58:39.:58:44.

million per year by 2025. We are told that moving more of HMRC's work

:58:45.:58:48.

out of central London which has some of the worlds most expensive office

:58:49.:58:53.

space allow substantial savings. How has that figure been calculated?

:58:54.:58:58.

Ridiculously went HMRC does not know where the hubs will be. How has this

:58:59.:59:05.

idea of moving out of city 's centre is being consistent with closing

:59:06.:59:08.

offices in East Kilbride and centralising them in big city centre

:59:09.:59:12.

sites in Glasgow and Edinburgh? Can we see the sums? My honourable

:59:13.:59:19.

friend makes a very powerful point on that specific issue of

:59:20.:59:23.

centralisation in my own constituency of Livingston, we have

:59:24.:59:29.

seen virtually no work done on the impact of transport and travel, and

:59:30.:59:34.

it is a relatively short distance, never mind the people in Dundee

:59:35.:59:37.

expected to travel, and it is clear this isn't ill-conceived and ill

:59:38.:59:39.

thought out proposals. I think at the end of the day what

:59:40.:59:49.

we want to see are the sums, the just fixes, and will the local

:59:50.:59:54.

decisions be revoked if the sums don't add up? Where does the local

:59:55.:59:59.

communities factor in the HMRC considerations? Does it feature at

:00:00.:00:05.

all? When I asked the minister about this, his written answer was just

:00:06.:00:11.

that HMRC will undertake all necessary consultations and impact

:00:12.:00:20.

assessment work for its plans. We can never assume that a office

:00:21.:00:28.

will be there forever but this is a significant factor in

:00:29.:00:32.

decision-making so let's hear about what weight has been attached to

:00:33.:00:35.

that. The most important thing to me and to many here are the questions

:00:36.:00:39.

that the constituents have, the dedicated and skilled staff in the

:00:40.:00:44.

Tax Offices. They want to move are the jobs moving with them, are they

:00:45.:00:51.

moving to jobs not just in terms of locations but in new roles? My

:00:52.:00:55.

constituents fear that the good quality roles will be replaced with

:00:56.:01:02.

poorer quality work. How did HMRC calculate that 90% are within daily

:01:03.:01:08.

reasonable travel? Reasonableness of travel discuss not just depend on

:01:09.:01:14.

distance but transport links and parking. And will this be assessed

:01:15.:01:21.

on an individual basis? And the challenges arise with disabilities

:01:22.:01:26.

and care commitments. Why has HMRC not undertaken a quality impact on

:01:27.:01:32.

care of its proposals? Why has HMRC changed its policy in February 2015,

:01:33.:01:38.

so that members are no longer entitled to talk to a rep when there

:01:39.:01:46.

are one to one discussions especially when this concerns their

:01:47.:01:49.

horizons. And given the work that they are

:01:50.:01:53.

doing, the plans to close the offices and that the department

:01:54.:02:00.

recruited 1,000 new staffs at other locations, what is the explanation

:02:01.:02:05.

for this? And why will not the executive meet to talk about the

:02:06.:02:08.

redundancies and how can this happen when the HMRC is spending millions a

:02:09.:02:16.

month over overtime. In my constituency NHS England there

:02:17.:02:26.

are staff being made compulsory redundant and others are moving in.

:02:27.:02:32.

Those are being told who are compulsorily redundant are being

:02:33.:02:36.

told that the redundancies are on a work stream basis than a whole

:02:37.:02:40.

office basis and people are getting word week by week and HMRC call this

:02:41.:02:45.

a plan? When they cannot tell people from week to week where they stand?

:02:46.:02:51.

It emphasises that the sums don't appear to add up. The plan is not a

:02:52.:02:57.

plan but a desperate attempt to get out of the whole HMRC issue that it

:02:58.:03:04.

got into in 2001. There are questions raised and this

:03:05.:03:08.

has highlighted that more scrutiny and consultation is required if we

:03:09.:03:13.

are to understand what it means for HMRC for taxpayers, for towns and

:03:14.:03:17.

cities where the office are situated and for the horde working employees.

:03:18.:03:21.

The case for cuts and closures has not been made. We don't need the

:03:22.:03:28.

glossy magazines and buzz words but hard facts and detailed scrutiny and

:03:29.:03:33.

genuine consultation. Well it is all a bit of a mess. We

:03:34.:03:39.

have seen from the contributions, I congratulate the honourable member

:03:40.:03:42.

from Glasgow south-west for securing the debate. He has touched on the

:03:43.:03:48.

issues of staff morale. The fact there is no ministerial statement.

:03:49.:03:53.

The fact of the shameful mately contract, signed by a Labour

:03:54.:03:57.

government who did not realise that this was an overseas company. And my

:03:58.:04:02.

honourable friend from Walsall south touched on a point dear to my heart,

:04:03.:04:08.

as well as mentioning the cures governing arrangements of the HMRC,

:04:09.:04:14.

the strangeness of her troths in Walsall, close to mine in the

:04:15.:04:19.

south-west, of traveleling to Birmingham to an HMRC centre where

:04:20.:04:24.

there are higher rents in Walsall or Wolverhampton, where in my

:04:25.:04:27.

constituency, I am disappointed to say that the government is proposing

:04:28.:04:31.

to close Crown House in Wolverhampton. And the honourable

:04:32.:04:38.

member from den deep West mentioned the imbalance of resources devoted

:04:39.:04:43.

to benefit fraud versus tax evasion and to sum up what my honourable

:04:44.:04:49.

friend from Bootle said movingly about his constituency, that the

:04:50.:04:53.

Government is uninterested. The honourable member from south TRON

:04:54.:04:59.

mentioned the geography and spoke about foster careers as an example

:05:00.:05:03.

of people who need access, face to face who, are trying to help the

:05:04.:05:09.

community and the honourable member who mentioned the difficulty that

:05:10.:05:14.

Welsh speakers are likely to have with the rearrangements of

:05:15.:05:17.

relocation to Cardiff and the honourable member from East Kilbride

:05:18.:05:21.

pointing out the lack of an impact assessment and the context of this

:05:22.:05:28.

is that the HMRC is embarking on something called making tax digital.

:05:29.:05:33.

About which the chart Chartered Institute of Taxation says: Making

:05:34.:05:39.

tax digital promises significant potential benefits but HMRC's

:05:40.:05:44.

resources should not be cut further before the cost savings that

:05:45.:05:49.

digitised savenings promises are being delivered. And there is the

:05:50.:05:56.

rub. We see that businesses under making tax digital will be required

:05:57.:06:02.

to update HMRC quarrel via a digital tax account. As the honourable

:06:03.:06:11.

member for Chichester, the chair of the Treasury committee wrote to the

:06:12.:06:14.

Financial Secretary this week saying: I understand that HMRC

:06:15.:06:18.

clarified for the first time businesses would be required not

:06:19.:06:23.

just to summit information to HMRC online once a quarter but required

:06:24.:06:29.

to do all record-keeping in a prescribed digital format. The

:06:30.:06:33.

institute of chartered accounts in England and Wales, and I suspect

:06:34.:06:38.

that there is a similar situation in Scotland and Northern Ireland found

:06:39.:06:42.

in their survey that 75% of businesses and 82% of sole traders

:06:43.:06:46.

would have to change record keeping systems to comply with the

:06:47.:06:51.

Government's new proposals for making tax digital. HMRC itself as

:06:52.:06:56.

far as I can tell, is a mixed blessing as it were, a mixed picture

:06:57.:07:01.

on digital talisation in a written answer to me on the 1st of February,

:07:02.:07:08.

the Financial Secretary said: HMRC's business plan for 2016/17 will be

:07:09.:07:18.

finalalised and published on the end of March 2017. Unfortunately, I

:07:19.:07:22.

cannot find the document online, so if it is there, it is buried. Not

:07:23.:07:27.

very good on digital talisation. Then to the office closures which

:07:28.:07:31.

have been spoken about movingly today.

:07:32.:07:34.

That is happening all over the country. It which make access for

:07:35.:07:40.

individuals much worse. We know that access by telephone has been

:07:41.:07:45.

appalling. Though to be fair to the minister with extra resources and

:07:46.:07:48.

extra staff because of pressure from this side of the House that improved

:07:49.:07:54.

but the context is that we trying to tackle tax avoidance and we see that

:07:55.:07:59.

with a Panama papers, that HMRC staff are rushed off their feet now,

:08:00.:08:05.

how are they going to deal with the fallout from the Panama papers? They

:08:06.:08:09.

will not be able to do. I would like the minister when replying to refer

:08:10.:08:16.

to that. Also we have a general anti-abuse rule that we are hoping

:08:17.:08:23.

to have and to implement but that will require staff to enforce it. We

:08:24.:08:27.

don't have the enforcement if we don't have the staff. The office of

:08:28.:08:32.

Budget responsibility says regarding the tax he had lost from Guernsey,

:08:33.:08:38.

Jersey and the Isle of Man quote: HMRC is less optimistic about how

:08:39.:08:43.

much of the loss yield can be recouped on the basis that they are

:08:44.:08:48.

unlikely to be able to work the higher number of additional cases on

:08:49.:08:54.

top of existing work loads. The O BR estimate that HMRC will recoup ?530

:08:55.:09:02.

million is down from ?1. 03 billion as a previous estimate.

:09:03.:09:06.

So, again, talk about cutting your nose to spite your face. When you

:09:07.:09:11.

cut the number of staff and cannot work the cases to get in the

:09:12.:09:14.

revenue, the staff would pay for themselves and there are many

:09:15.:09:19.

studies to that effect. Coupled with a government which has increased a

:09:20.:09:24.

tax code by 50%. Now I understand that all oppositions talk about

:09:25.:09:28.

simplifying taxation it is the Holy Grail. It has never happened in 15

:09:29.:09:32.

years since I entered this Parliament. But if we are going have

:09:33.:09:39.

a tax code, the tax guide is now 1,500 pages it was 1,000 in 2010. I

:09:40.:09:47.

am not saying we need 50% staff but if we are having complexity rather

:09:48.:09:50.

than simfully fiction we probably need at least the same number of

:09:51.:09:55.

staff with their expertise. And as it is, some of this is efficiency,

:09:56.:10:01.

the number of stage in the last six years has plummeted in HMRC. Now as

:10:02.:10:06.

with all honourable members, I suspect, I had a helpful brief from

:10:07.:10:13.

PCS, the trade union. I declare an interest as a member of the Unite

:10:14.:10:19.

trade union. I am proud to be. PCS represents 35,000 workers, that is

:10:20.:10:24.

well over half the workforce in HM, so I think that they have some idea

:10:25.:10:28.

what they are talking about. One of the things that they highlight is

:10:29.:10:32.

the lack of an equality impact assessment which should have been

:10:33.:10:37.

done. There is anecdotal evidence. I stress that, from London and the

:10:38.:10:41.

south-east and England that 40% of those targeted who will not be able

:10:42.:10:46.

to tramp with the centralisation have disabilities. That may or may

:10:47.:10:53.

not be the case but without an equality impact assessment we don't

:10:54.:10:57.

know. Many staff with businessabilities, childcare or

:10:58.:11:02.

elder care responsibilities will be disproportionately affected as the

:11:03.:11:06.

additional travel, occasioned by centralisation, even if it is

:11:07.:11:11.

geographically possible, which it is not in some parts of the country,

:11:12.:11:19.

will not be for them. Then, HMRC, according to PCS: They are not

:11:20.:11:23.

prepared to discuss the planned office closures with the recognised

:11:24.:11:28.

trade union, PCS, only how the closures will be implemented. Now if

:11:29.:11:32.

that is the case it is unacceptial. If really that is the Government's

:11:33.:11:36.

view, they should put their money where their mouth is, I don't advise

:11:37.:11:43.

them to do this but to put it where their mouth is and recognise the

:11:44.:11:48.

trade union that represents the half of their staff or comply with the

:11:49.:11:52.

spirit of the law and engage properly with a recognised trade

:11:53.:11:56.

union. They should have the one touch one discussions which

:11:57.:12:00.

initially were promised and are now being withdrawn in terms of having a

:12:01.:12:04.

union representative there. That is part of what the union recognition

:12:05.:12:09.

is about. But you can have the union rep there when you are difficulties

:12:10.:12:13.

at work. And Government should be telling HMRC to do that. . What we

:12:14.:12:19.

have a the moment is HMRC broadly going in the wrong direction. They

:12:20.:12:22.

are putting the cart before the horse. They are cutting staff, or

:12:23.:12:31.

proposing to, before there is any derision that the digitalisation is

:12:32.:12:35.

working smoothly. Get it warning smoothly before cutting the staff.

:12:36.:12:40.

And the making tax digital will increase costs for businesses who

:12:41.:12:44.

will have to put in information four times a year on new software or the

:12:45.:12:50.

disproportionate effect that will have on small businesses. There is

:12:51.:12:55.

with fewer staff a lessen likelihood of success on tax avoidance and tax

:12:56.:13:00.

evasion, which, to be fair, the Government has done a lot B they

:13:01.:13:06.

have to do a lot more. And these cuts will further restrict access to

:13:07.:13:11.

HMRC svrtss for individuals. There will be further demoralising for a

:13:12.:13:16.

highly skilled workforce. I would say to Government that there

:13:17.:13:21.

is a contradiction in what they are trying to do.

:13:22.:13:27.

The contradiction is this: They are quite rightly trying to make HMRC

:13:28.:13:32.

and its operations more efficient by using computers more.

:13:33.:13:41.

At the same time, they are saying we need to centralise in offices. Well,

:13:42.:13:46.

if computerisation works smoothly, you don't need to centralise

:13:47.:13:52.

geographically, you can do it in a dispersed manner as with the offices

:13:53.:13:56.

we have this that government is proposing to close. I urge the

:13:57.:13:58.

minister to think again. Backing from the HMRC announced

:13:59.:14:10.

important changes to how it would operate. It's aims are simple, to

:14:11.:14:15.

create a modern efficient organisation that will continue to

:14:16.:14:20.

protect this country's tax revenues while at the same time providing

:14:21.:14:24.

better value to the taxpayer. HMRC is determined to make sure it is

:14:25.:14:28.

better able to focus on its core priority to bring in more revenue by

:14:29.:14:34.

tackling tax evasion and avoidance. And since 2010 it has made real

:14:35.:14:38.

progress. For example, it has driven down the tax gap, the difference

:14:39.:14:42.

between what HMRC should theoretically bring in and what they

:14:43.:14:50.

actually collect from 7.3% in 2009, to 6.4% in 2013. That's one of the

:14:51.:14:57.

lowest rates in the world. To make the importance of this quite clear,

:14:58.:15:04.

let me put it this way. If the government and HMRC had not taken

:15:05.:15:08.

action to achieve that, we would have collected ?14.5 billion less in

:15:09.:15:16.

tax. We are determined to transform HMRC into a more efficient, more

:15:17.:15:22.

highly skilled organisation which offers the digital services people

:15:23.:15:26.

expect in the 21st-century. That is why in the spending review of 2015

:15:27.:15:30.

we made the commitment to invest ?1.3 billion in transforming the

:15:31.:15:37.

digital capabilities of HMRC. In this year's budget we allocated a

:15:38.:15:41.

further ?71 million to help improve their customer services. Why the end

:15:42.:15:44.

of this Parliament this will bring the change we need to make it

:15:45.:15:48.

quicker and easier for taxpayers to report and pay their taxes online,

:15:49.:15:52.

deliver a seven day eight week service. Improve telephone services

:15:53.:15:58.

and reduce call waiting times as well as dedicated phone lines for

:15:59.:16:01.

new businesses. This investment is one that will pay off. I 2020 we

:16:02.:16:07.

expect HMRC to be saving ?700 million per year as well as

:16:08.:16:11.

delivering an additional ?1 billion in revenue in 2020. So the next

:16:12.:16:18.

stage of the plan to bolster HMRC and help that deliver more for less

:16:19.:16:23.

is to transform the estate it works through. In 2010 we challenged HMRC

:16:24.:16:29.

to make savings, ask them to reduce costs by a quarter and reinvestment

:16:30.:16:34.

and ?70 million of those savings in making sure that all businesses and

:16:35.:16:37.

people paid the tax that they should, bringing in an additional ?7

:16:38.:16:45.

billion a year in 2014. They delivered, making savings of ?991

:16:46.:16:49.

million, including by reducing the cost of the estate. At the same time

:16:50.:16:55.

they kept up progress in cutting the tax and improving customer service.

:16:56.:17:01.

Far from endangering our plans to clamp down on tax avoidance and

:17:02.:17:04.

improve customer service, these plans are crucial to it. Let me

:17:05.:17:09.

remind the house that HMRC's plans will generate state savings of ?100

:17:10.:17:16.

million per year by 2025. I have a lot of points I want to get through

:17:17.:17:20.

and if I have time I will give way. When HMRC was formed in 2005, it had

:17:21.:17:26.

around 570 offices spread out all over the country, an inefficient way

:17:27.:17:30.

of doing business in the 21st-century. Reorganising this

:17:31.:17:34.

network of offices was a priority even then, which is why, following a

:17:35.:17:40.

number of reorganisations that number was reduced to around 390 in

:17:41.:17:46.

2010. It now stands at around 170 offices ranging in size from 5700

:17:47.:17:52.

people to fewer than ten. That is a start but it is not efficient

:17:53.:17:58.

enough. The changes we announced in November represent the backstage of

:17:59.:18:01.

HMRC's estate transformation programme. Over the next ten years

:18:02.:18:06.

the department will bring its employees together in large, modern

:18:07.:18:09.

offices in 13 locations equipped with additional infrastructure and

:18:10.:18:13.

training facilities they need to work effectively. These new

:18:14.:18:16.

high-quality regional centres will serve each and every region and

:18:17.:18:21.

nation of the United Kingdom, creating high-quality skilled jobs,

:18:22.:18:25.

promotion opportunities in Birmingham, Belfast, Bristol,

:18:26.:18:28.

Cardiff, Croydon, Edinburgh, cars go, Leeds, that the poor,

:18:29.:18:31.

Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham and Stratford. There are significant

:18:32.:18:38.

advantages to such a system. The new offices will have the capacity to

:18:39.:18:41.

encourage people working in different roles at different levels.

:18:42.:18:45.

To work more closely together as well as provide more opportunities

:18:46.:18:48.

for them to develop their careers. They will be in locations with

:18:49.:18:52.

strong transport links and with colleges and universities nearby to

:18:53.:18:56.

ensure a ready talent pool close by. In short they represent the way

:18:57.:19:02.

business is done in the 21st-century. HMRC expects the first

:19:03.:19:06.

centre to open by 2017, with the others opening over the following

:19:07.:19:10.

four years. Can I turn to the point about consulting HMRC staff? HMRC

:19:11.:19:17.

fully recognises that its most valuable asset is its people. HMRC

:19:18.:19:21.

can only do what it does thanks to those dedicated members of staff who

:19:22.:19:27.

bring in the money that funds our essential public services. As well

:19:28.:19:29.

as helping hard-working families with the benefits they need. That is

:19:30.:19:33.

why HMRC has kept its workforce fully abreast of all plans to change

:19:34.:19:38.

how it operates, referring internally two years ago. Since then

:19:39.:19:44.

HMRC has held around 2000 events across the United Kingdom talking to

:19:45.:19:47.

colleagues about these changes. Everyone working very HMRC will have

:19:48.:19:51.

the opportunity to discuss their personal circumstances with their

:19:52.:19:55.

manager ahead of any office closures or moves. I should remind the house

:19:56.:20:00.

that this is about changing the locations, not cutting staff. Indeed

:20:01.:20:04.

the department's policy is to keep any redundancies to an absolute

:20:05.:20:09.

minimum. HMRC analysis indicates most employees are within reasonable

:20:10.:20:11.

daily travel of a new centre, although that is subject to the

:20:12.:20:16.

one-to-one discussions which every member of staff will have about a

:20:17.:20:22.

year before any planned closure. Can I pick up this point about trade

:20:23.:20:28.

union representation? One-to-one meetings are an opportunity for

:20:29.:20:32.

managers and staff to discuss how the proposals will affect them as

:20:33.:20:35.

HMRC consults with everyone of its staff. Once decisions are taken, of

:20:36.:20:41.

course staff will have the opportunity to have representations.

:20:42.:20:46.

But this is not a change of approach. These fact-finding

:20:47.:20:49.

discussions with all members of staff to understand their personal

:20:50.:20:54.

circumstances. Trade union rights have never been in such meetings.

:20:55.:20:56.

But they will be involved as they would normally at a later stage.

:20:57.:21:05.

I'll give way. Could just clarify that? My understanding is that once

:21:06.:21:10.

there is an outcome of a one-to-one meeting there is not an appeal

:21:11.:21:15.

mechanism, which I understand the trade unions do not get access to

:21:16.:21:20.

either. The purpose of the one-to-one meetings are to ascertain

:21:21.:21:25.

the particular circumstances of each individual as they are likely to be

:21:26.:21:31.

affected by the proposals. From that then further proposals will come

:21:32.:21:36.

forward. And the usual trade union representation will be available to

:21:37.:21:39.

members of staff. Since announcing its decision on the locations of its

:21:40.:21:46.

new offices in November, HMRC has been busy in negotiations with

:21:47.:21:49.

suppliers designing the look and feel of buildings, planning how it

:21:50.:21:54.

will move its existing workforce. That has included one-to-one

:21:55.:21:58.

meetings with almost 2500 members of staff most immediately affected to

:21:59.:22:03.

look at what their individual needs are in the moves. I do stress that

:22:04.:22:06.

these are operational changes. They are decided at an operational rather

:22:07.:22:11.

than a political level. Making changes to how offices are operated

:22:12.:22:18.

is part of the programme. It is essential to make the organisation

:22:19.:22:21.

fit for delivering better customer service as well as making it harder

:22:22.:22:24.

for the dishonest minority to cheat the system, all at a lower cost to

:22:25.:22:29.

the taxpayer. It does have the government's full support. In terms

:22:30.:22:36.

of staff engagement, let me make this point. HMRC staff are currently

:22:37.:22:40.

spread throughout around 170 offices across the country. Many of which

:22:41.:22:47.

are a legacy of the 1960s and 70s. Without the modest facilities and

:22:48.:22:52.

technology support. The current state of the state is undoubtably a

:22:53.:22:56.

factor in the levels of engagement of staff, many of whom look forward

:22:57.:23:00.

to working in view, modern, fit for purpose offices, the type of

:23:01.:23:04.

workplaces that will also HMRC attract and retain the skilled

:23:05.:23:08.

workforce it requires in the future. There's been much comment about the

:23:09.:23:16.

contracts. I for 1am certainly not going to defend the contract entered

:23:17.:23:20.

into by the previous government. It is not a good contract for the

:23:21.:23:24.

taxpayer, that's precisely why HMRC want to get out of it. If we do not

:23:25.:23:29.

get out of it now, HMRC will be fixed in it for years to come. In

:23:30.:23:33.

terms of customer service standards, can I just point out that call

:23:34.:23:42.

handling last week was that 98%, the average weight was six minutes. We

:23:43.:23:47.

invested more money in the budget to improve on that. On Welsh speaking

:23:48.:23:51.

services, HMRC are committed to maintaining services in Welsh for

:23:52.:23:55.

Welsh speaking customers. And the quality of these services in the

:23:56.:24:00.

future must continue to be high. HMRC is actively exploring options

:24:01.:24:05.

on how it can best achieve that. Mr Deputy Speaker, if we want HMRC to

:24:06.:24:09.

do its job effectively, we must ensure it is fit for the challenges

:24:10.:24:14.

it faces. We have to be willing to modernise, find efficiencies and

:24:15.:24:19.

make long-term strategic decisions. That is precisely what HMRC is

:24:20.:24:22.

doing, transforming itself into a small, highly skilled operation that

:24:23.:24:32.

will deliver more for the taxpayer. I hope it will have the support of

:24:33.:24:44.

this house. Can I thank all those who contributed to the debate. This

:24:45.:24:48.

is an issue which affects all the nations of the United Kingdom. We

:24:49.:24:52.

heard some excellent points made, particularly in relation to HMRC

:24:53.:25:02.

offices. Can I say to the minister I think it is cavalier to suggest to

:25:03.:25:06.

employees that have been dragged into one-to-one meetings and denied

:25:07.:25:09.

trade union representation, he should look at that. The lack of

:25:10.:25:14.

parliamentary scrutiny on this issue has been shocking and many of us in

:25:15.:25:17.

this house will continue to hold the government to account on this issue.

:25:18.:25:28.

The Ayes have it. The question is, this house to now adjourned.

:25:29.:25:36.

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