Browse content similar to 24/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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of the challenges that are related to the freedom of the press with | :00:00. | 3:59:59 | |
her. The UK last provided cluster | :00:00. | :00:35. | |
munitions to Saudi Arabia nearly 30 years ago. The final delivery was in | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
1989. We ratified the Convention on cluster munitions on the 4th of May | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
2010 and we no longer supply, maintain nor support this weapon. We | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
have not done so since we signed the convention in 2008. Based on all of | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
the information available to us including sensitive coalition | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
operational reporting we assess that no UK supplied cluster weapons have | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
been used or UK supplied aircraft have been involved in the use of UK | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
cluster weapons in the conflict in Yemen. We are aware of reports of | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
the alleged use of cluster munitions by the coalition in Yemen. We have | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
raised the issue of their use during the current conflicts in Yemen | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
several times with the Saudi Arabian authorities and in line with our | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
obligations under the Convention on cluster munitions, continue to | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
encourage Saudi Arabia is a nonparty to the convention to exceed to it. | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
The Saudis have previously denied using UK cluster munitions during | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
the conflict in Yemen but we are seeking fresh assurances in light of | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
this serious allegation. Yesterday amnesty International sent a letter | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
to the Prime Minister calling for an urgent investigation into the | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
scandal of UK supplied cluster bombs being used in villages in northern | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
Yemen. During recent research in villages, never Yemen/ Saudi border, | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
they found UK manufactured cluster bombs. They have been used by the | :02:18. | :02:25. | |
Saudi Arabian led coalition forces. Whilst I know the Minister's | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
remarks, the discovery of the cluster bomb manifested in the UK in | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
the 70s is clear evidence that as long suspected members of the Saudi | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
Arabian led military commission accused British cluster munitions in | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
their highly controversial attacks in the Yemen. In February the | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
European Parliament voted for an EU wide ban on sales of arms to Saudi | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
Arabia citing the disastrous humanitarian situation as a result | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
of the Saudi led military intervention in Yemen. In the 2008 | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
code of conduct, they promised not to sell weapons to countries with -- | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
that might be using violations of international humanitarian law and | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
undermine regional stability and peace. With this in mind for the UK | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
Government now suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia and properly | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
investigate the issues raised by Amnesty International? Will the | :03:27. | :03:28. | |
Secretary of State confirm that the Government will keep its commitment | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
to the EU not to export in these tragic circumstances? Finally, what | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
the Secretary of State apologised to the House that this Government's | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
continued inaction in this vital matter which has resulted in the | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
deaths of Yemeni men, women and children as a continued use of | :03:47. | :03:56. | |
British bombs. --? The Government recognises that the seriousness of | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
this allegation and has therefore requested reconfirmation from the | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
Saudi authorities of any evidence that there is to suggest you came | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
munitions have been involved in the way alleged. We don't have any | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
evidence of this at present and we have not supplied any such munitions | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
for a very long time. There have been several conflicts in the border | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
area between Saudi Arabia and northern Yemen in the last decade so | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
it is not clear to us that this munition has come from the current | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
conflicts. In relation to other issues the honourable lady | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
mentioned, we are clear that the role of the United Kingdom advises | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
to the kingdom of Saudi Arabia's Armed Forces are not operational in | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
this conflict. We welcome the ceasefire and the negotiations that | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
are underway and have been in place for the last six weeks or so and we | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
wish that to be successful so that hostilities continue to result in no | :05:04. | :05:13. | |
further conflict in Yemen. As the Government's special envoy to Yemen, | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
I have been there many times and more recently to Saudi Arabia where | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
the Government of Yemen is based. I have been to the operational | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
targeting headquarters of the Saudi led coalition and have seen for | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
myself what I believe to be a very high professional standard being set | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
by that operation. Notwithstanding the honourable lady's Passion on | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
this driven much more by NGO briefing vanities by any experience | :05:45. | :05:54. | |
in this, would it not be... It is not insulting at all to suggest that | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
experience about the country does matter. Would it not be wise for the | :06:00. | :06:09. | |
House to appreciate that the current cessation of hostilities and the | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
peace talks in Kuwait are at an absolutely critical phase and the | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
future of the country entirely depends on these talks. Therefore it | :06:21. | :06:28. | |
would be wise also not to inflame any kind of opinion that could | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
jeopardise these talks and empower those who would rather see them fail | :06:33. | :06:42. | |
and succeed? I am very grateful to my right honourable friend who does | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
speak with considerable experience on matters of Yemen as the Prime | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
Minister's envoy to the country. He visits its neighbours more than any | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
member of this house. I would remind those opposite who are rightly | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
concerned about the impact of certain munitions in this conflict | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
that it wasn't for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia adopting the coalition | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
following UN resolution 2216, it will be likely that the entire | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
Yemeni country would be overrun and in a state of continuing chaos. We | :07:20. | :07:28. | |
have all read the reports of Yemen in recent days of cluster bombs and | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
such volumes in civilian areas that they are hanging off the trees of | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
young children picking up the bombs thinking they are toys with familiar | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
results. They will be rightly concerned about the lack of answers | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
we have heard from the Minster. We need to know whether this Saudi | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
military abused British planes to drop cluster bombs. What is the | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
extent of British involvement in this conflict and what is it | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
designed to achieve? A State Department official has said that | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
the United States has reminded Saudi Arabia of its obligations regarding | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
the use of cluster bombs has an -- and has encouraged them to avoid | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
civilian casualties. Can the Minister confirm whether the | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
Government has ways those concerns with his Saudi counterparts and what | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
response has he received? Even as the evidence mounts we have heard | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
the absurd spectacle of the Saudi spokesman in the face of all the | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
evidence insisting that the coalition is not using cluster | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
bombs. Finally, can the Minister and so this. Does he believe the bloody | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
doors -- the Brigadier general and what is he going to do about it and | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
when is he going to do it? As I have said we regard the reports as | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
Sirius. We are seeking to investigate through our discussions | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
with the Saudis any evidence to substantiate the evidence made. I | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
can categorically reassure her in this house that no British planes | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
had been involved in this coalition effort at all, let alone in dropping | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
cluster munitions as the potential allegation. There is no British | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
involvement in the coalition in terms of targeting or in weapon | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
icing aircraft to undertake missions. In relation to the | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
Government's response, my honourable friend, the Minister for the Middle | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
East, was in Doha yesterday and met the United Nations envoy for Yemen | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
and has pressed upon him the need to continue with these as he was | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
indicating then the debt -- the delicate integration is going on in | :09:44. | :09:44. | |
Yemen. As the secretary of a tandem | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
ministers are aware, the committee on arms export control is holding an | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
inquiry into the conflict in Yemen. Will he can lead to some knitting | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
any further evidence, not least in terms of cluster bombs, not least in | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
terms of from Saudi Arabia to the committee as soon as it becomes | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
available? I joined other ministers in appearing before the honourable | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
gentleman's committee recently, which was a novel experience, and I | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
hope a satisfactory one. I would happily undertake that should we | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
receive any further evidence as a result of our current enquiries into | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
use of cluster munitions, that we provide that evidence to the | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
committee. There is a government has truly got its head stuck in the | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
sand. Yemen is facing one of the worst humanitarian crisis in the | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
world, yet through its continuing sales of arms to Saudi Arabia, the | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
UK Government is exacerbating the plight of the Yemeni people. The | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
SNP's Queen's Speech called for a regulation of a trading bill, which | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
would seek to regulate the arms treaty. That is the right and | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
transparent approach to such deals the UK Government must follow. | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
Doesn't he agree it is a disgrace that the UK Government has licensed | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
?6.7 billion of arms to Saudi Arabia since this Prime Minister took | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
office in 2010? Including 2.8 billion since the bombing of Yemen | :11:28. | :11:36. | |
began in 2010. Is it worth so much more than the thousands of men and | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
women who die in this conflict crush mark this government has questions | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
to answer, with evidence mounting it has reached human law. Will the | :11:45. | :11:54. | |
inquiry get underway? I will asked a lady do consider her last remarks, | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
there is no suggestion the UK is involved in breaches of the | :12:01. | :12:02. | |
humanitarian law in this conflict, non-whatsoever. The human -- | :12:03. | :12:14. | |
humanitarian aid is second ranking from countries around the world, we | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
have a proud record of supporting the humanitarian cause of people | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
disturbed by this crisis. As she will be aware, some one fifth of | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
people in need around the world through conflict are in Yemen, and | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
we are committed to supporting peaceful resolution of this | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
conflict. In relation to arms exports to the kingdom of Saudi | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
Arabia, the exports that have been undertaken in recent years are | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
primarily in providing capability to cope with incursion by foreign | :12:51. | :12:58. | |
powers. They are supporting the kingdom of savage Arabia's | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
contributed the Daesh, where they are playing a vital role. The | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
honourable lady has to look at the challenges in the round in that | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
region and the role Saudi Arabia is playing in providing continued | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
security to the region. I'm sure the Minister would agree that in the | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
Arabian area, we have to be careful of what we wish for because some | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
conservative approaches could replace them, and we could see a | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
collapse in Yemen which could danger our security. Would he agree this | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
latest incident shows the importance of all nations signing up to the | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
cluster munitions legislation, in the same way the UK has? I'm | :13:48. | :13:56. | |
grateful for him to pointing out it is a volatile country which has | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
played host to terrorist organisations. I agree with them it | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
is desirable for more countries to sign up to the Convention on cluster | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
munitions, and we encourage our friends in Saudi Arabia to do so on | :14:10. | :14:17. | |
several occasions. There's been some doubts cast on the validity of | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
evidence produced by Amnesty, but I have seen the whole series of | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
photographs that do suggest cluster munitions are being used in Yemen, | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
and Amnesty have told us that more information was impossible to attain | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
because three people were killed in an incident was carrying out their | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
work, which suggest cluster munitions are being used. Can the | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
Minister explained, has he seen all of the evidence, and will he commit | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
to independently review its? Has he had any other answers to the series | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
of allegations made against cut on attacks against civilians? Not just | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
from Amnesty, but from Oxfam and other organisations, that the | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
Minister admitted he had not had satisfactory answers from? I would | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
say that I'm not casting doubt on the photographic evidence. The | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
challenge is to determine where and when the munitions were laid and by | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
whom, and there is little evidence of that at this point. We are happy, | :15:25. | :15:32. | |
we are taking this up with the Saudi Arabian authorities and are | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
concerned of the evidence of any UK ammunition that might have been use. | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
We will come if we find any evidence, pass it on to the | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
committee. In relation to the questions he posed to me and others | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
who appear before the committee, as to the extent of investigations on | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
other matters that we are reviewing or seeking information on, at this | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
point I'm not aware of any further such information forthcoming since | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
we last met the committee a couple of weeks ago. Can I find him for | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
granting the urging questions to the member? This is a very serious | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
matter, and I'm glad there will be an investigation of the very serious | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
allegations that have been made by honesty International. We are | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
involved in Yemen because we are peacemakers. We want to see peace | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
restored to this country that is bleeding to death because of the | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
involvement of so many countries. We needed the support of the Saudi | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
Arabians in order to restore a legitimate and, because of the | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
actions of the Iranians. It is important they now stop and support | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
the ceasefire, and these kinds of allegations undermine the work that | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
is being done by the Coalition. Could he ensure that the salad year | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
Arabian ambassador is called to see the Foreign Office minister said | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
that we can reinforce the message -- Saudi Arabian, but these undermined | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
the peace process? And that is what you need to make sure is maintained. | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
I'm grateful for the right honourable gentleman he was taking | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
an interest in this country. I'm grateful for pointing out that the | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
Coalition effort in Yemen was issued at the invitation of the president, | :17:30. | :17:41. | |
and therefore it is a fully legitimised operation. He is right | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
that the primary effort of the UK Government is to ensure peace is | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
restored to the country, and to that end, my honourable friend meets the | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
Saudi ambassador routinely, he saw him last week, and presses upon him | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
the importance of the negotiations that have taken place in Kuwait and | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
seeks to provide our assistance with those negotiations. In his earlier | :18:08. | :18:17. | |
reply, the Minister mentioned that he hadn't supplied munitions for | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
long time. Could you clarify the date of the last time munitions were | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
supplied? In my response to the original question, I made it clear | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
that in 1989 was the last time we supplied any of the Kayal 755 | :18:33. | :18:41. | |
munitions. The government are digging a deeper hole for | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
themselves. I'd exchanged letters with ministers on this subject and | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
have been informed the government have concluded the Saudi look lead | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
Coalition are not targeting civilians in Yemen. How can the | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
government draw this conclusion when they have stated that whole cities, | :18:57. | :19:05. | |
whether UN Council identified hospitals and mosques have been | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
identified, and Saudis are using UK made cluster munitions, 93% of | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
casualties are civilians, according to the UN. Will the government | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
require a backbone, except Saudi Arabia is in breach of humanitarian | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
law and halt weapon sales until they clean up their act? What I would say | :19:31. | :19:43. | |
is that this is a Civil War and in Civil War difficult things happen. | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
This is a complex environment. Actors use whatever is available to | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
them in terms of the two rain that is there, in order to adopt | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
positions, and it is not a nice straightforward, clinical exercise | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
like might happen in a training event. Therefore, accidents do | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
happen, and as a result of our relationship with the Saudi Arabian | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
Armed Forces, we are in a position to exert some influence on the | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
Coalition and its leadership to investigate accidents when they | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
occur and allegations of instances such as those that the honourable | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
gentleman has mentioned. We are putting the pressure on them, they | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
have said they are undertaken those investigations, and we are waiting | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
on the outcome. Finds to Labour government, we have the Arms export | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
control act of 2002, which provides as country with a robust mechanism | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
for our exports, not just to Saudi Arabia, but to other countries. But | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
the Minister provide what pressures have been put on the Iranians to | :20:53. | :21:01. | |
stop them exporting weapons, and in terms of using them for a direct | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
threat to Saudi Arabia? The honourable gentleman, who is an | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
experienced man in these matters, will be aware of Coalition efforts | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
to intercept material seeking to be supplied to rivals by foreign | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
governments, in particular from Orion -- Iran. My right on friends | :21:26. | :21:36. | |
raised this specific issue, and we will put diplomatic pressure on the | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
Iranians to seek their support. -- right honourable friend. Can I thank | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
the Minister for his response? The issue, along with the defence | :21:49. | :21:56. | |
committee, I attended and the Arms committee and we had a robust | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
exchange of views. Evidence was mentioned about the use of footage | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
of cluster bombs. In your response to the committee and for the | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
purposes of this House today, you stated that if evidence was found | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
that showed British cluster bombs were used, that the sanctions would | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
take place and they would stop arms exports to Saudi Arabia. We now have | :22:22. | :22:29. | |
more evidence that they produced. Will we take action to ensure that | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
exports to Saudi Arabia stopped, because the evidence shows British | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
cluster bombs? The honourable gentleman has taken an interest in | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
the subject and he plays an important role on the committee. I | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
will need to repeat what I said to the committee previously, and that | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
is we will take, we provide advice to the business department who are | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
the entity within the UK Government that provides exports licensors, and | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
the device we will give is shaped by the sake at the time. We have an | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
allegation of the use of a UK munition. Until we have established | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
whether that's munition has been used by a member of the Coalition, | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
we're not in a position at this point to speculate on what might | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
happen the future licence applications. It is important to | :23:30. | :23:38. | |
have a detailed investigation of exactly what was dropped and went, | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
because we all know that munitions can come to light many years after | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
complex, for example we are still finding bombs from World War II in | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
Britain. Does he agreed that that sort of investigation is important | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
because it is a close ally, acting in self defence of a government | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
which is entitled to run that country, and therefore it is not a | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
straightforward matter of condemnation? I'm grateful for him | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
pointing it out that munitions have quite a long shelf life, and it is | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
quite possible that the munitions that have been subject to this | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
allegation may have been a relic of a previous conflict in that area of | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
which there had been seven over the past ten years. | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
Britain was right to join other countries in the world to ban | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
cluster bombs and it is clear in this matter Saudi Arabia have | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
questions to answer. The Minister has mentioned the representations | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
that our Government has made to the Saudi Arabians. Will he explain what | :24:50. | :24:51. | |
work he is doing alongside other countries cluster bombs. Week | :24:52. | :25:14. | |
encourage them to concede to the terms of the convention or join | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
themselves. There are periodic dialogues with those countries that | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
are not as yet signatures to the convention and we will continue to | :25:26. | :25:34. | |
support those discussions. In one of his replies, my right honourable | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
friend mentioned the investigations which the Saudi Government has | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
agreed to undertake into strikes in civilian areas. Could he give us | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
some timetable when he expects to hear results from these | :25:48. | :25:55. | |
investigations by the Saudis. We are looking at the allegations that have | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
been made through the various bodies that have been mentioned in the | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
Chamber earlier in relation to this conflict where we have the | :26:03. | :26:09. | |
opportunity to indicate to the Saudi military that these incidents are | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
worthy of investigation. This is an ongoing process. We have had | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
opportunities to encourage them to speed up their investigations but at | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
this point I can put a timetable on it. It is clear that these munitions | :26:25. | :26:37. | |
are old munitions but they are falling and affecting families and | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
people living in Yemen. Would you not agree that this Government has a | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
responsibility, moral responsibility to act to provide training, | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
resources to the services on the ground in Yemen who are trying to do | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
mine these areas so people don't have to live in safety? She referred | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
to munitions falling. We don't know if the munitions referred to in the | :27:05. | :27:12. | |
allegations today, when, where or how they were delivered. It is that | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
information that will help to inform the investigation and what is done | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
about it. In relation to the clearing up of the munitions that do | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
exist in northern Yemen we are supporting a number of NGO's with | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
resource and training to encourage them to undertake this important | :27:32. | :27:38. | |
work. I am hoping the honourable member for Twickenham was here at | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
the start of the statement. Good. That is good enough for me. With | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
reference to a colleague from North East Hertfordshire, can the Minister | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
tell me when the UK signed the Convention on cluster munitions, | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
what happened to the existing UK manufactured cluster bombs at that | :28:00. | :28:07. | |
time? I can help the honourable lady. The last munitions that were | :28:08. | :28:15. | |
surprised -- surprised -- supply to Saudi Arabia, it did not come into | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
effect until May 2010 and we seized supply and did not support any | :28:22. | :28:31. | |
weapons further. May I congratulate the member for bringing the | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
Government to answer this urgent question. These cluster bombs seemed | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
to be modelled in the 1970s and it undermines the relationship between | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
the UK and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Over that time possibly | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
thousands of UK personnel have found themselves either advising Armed | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
Forces or leaving the UK service to take up the role of the Saudi | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
Arabian armed services. How confident is the Minister and the | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
Government and that no UK citizen has been involved in targeting, | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
firing or maintaining these illegal weapons while in the service of the | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia? Completely confident. Once again we have | :29:16. | :29:29. | |
ministers prepared to present the Saudi wolf in a sheepdog's clothing. | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
We have given -- we have been given a pub crawl of an excuse. We were | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
told either the weapons were old or there is no evidence of any cluster | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
munitions haven't been used by Saudi led coalition at all. Then there was | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
no evidence that they were British manufactured. Then we have been told | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
that the Minister is concerned and will try to get evidence. Rather | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
asking them about what they have done, were the Mint contact the | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
centre that recovered this material and have it in a deep mining depot | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
and look at the same evidence that Amnesty international have examined? | :30:09. | :30:16. | |
I would say and remind him that we are not members of this coalition. | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
We do not have locus within Yemen to undertake direct investigations | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
ourselves. What we are talking about the alleged violations of | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
international humanitarian law. The correct procedure is when an | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
incident has been brought to the attention of members of the | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
coalition, that the coalition to investigate themselves. We are able | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
to encourage and stimulate them to undertake that investigation because | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
we have a long-standing relationship between our respective Armed Forces | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
and that is what we are doing. That is the right way to proceed. If | :30:56. | :31:05. | |
these reports are not enough. Under what circumstances would the | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
Government consider or suspend sales of arms to Saudi Arabia? This is an | :31:10. | :31:17. | |
allegation. There are a number of allegations of potential breaches of | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
violations of humanitarian law. If such investigations lead to clear | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
evidence, that evidence will have to be taken into account whenever an | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
armed licence is presented and information is relevant. The | :31:37. | :31:46. | |
shocking statistics make it clear that the deaths of civilians in | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
Saudi Arabia are not an accident. They have been indiscriminate and | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
deliberately setting out to kill civilians. Does the Minister not | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
agree that instead of hiding behind the assertion, that we can prove | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
British weapons have been used, the only way to make sure they are not | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
is to call an immediate halt to all arms sales to Saudi Arabia until | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
allegations have been proven to be unfounded? Such a call will have no | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
impact on the use of existing weapons that are already supplied. | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
It wouldn't achieve what the honourable gentleman is looking to | :32:23. | :32:31. | |
do. The answer is that we are using our influence on the Saudi Arabians | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
to encourage them to undertake investigations in a circumstance | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
where there is a conflict and has been conflict on the ground. This | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
has been a war environment. Difficult things happens in wars and | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
it is not possible to be certain about everything that takes place in | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
such an environment. That is why it is important to investigate those | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
allegations that appeared to be a breach. The Minister said no UK made | :32:57. | :33:05. | |
planes have dropped UK made cluster bombs. Can he confirm whether any UK | :33:06. | :33:16. | |
planes have dropped any cluster bombs at all? There are no UK Royal | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
Air Force planes involved in the coalition and there are no cluster | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
munitions within the arsenal of the British Armed Forces. Given the | :33:29. | :33:39. | |
grave concerns raised, with the UK Government heed the recommendation | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
of the International development committee and back the establishment | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
of an independent investigation into alleged breaches of humanitarian law | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
in Yemen? There is a clear process under which the Saudis-macro | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
undertake the operation. They haven't done that before in previous | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
conflicts in which the Saudis-macro been engaged and that is the | :34:05. | :34:06. | |
approach. Statement, the Secretary of State | :34:07. | :34:18. | |
for Defence. Secretary Michael Fallon. With permission I want to | :34:19. | :34:26. | |
update the House on the counter Daesh campaign during the February | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
statement is where my right honourable friend's the foreign and | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
develop an secretary. The attacks in Brussels have reminded us of the | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
port and self-defeating this terror and since the decisive vote to | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
extend their strikes to Syria, we have stepped up our air campaign and | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
today I want to set out the United Kingdom's contribution to military | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
operations and our wider efforts to defeat Daesh. We now have 11 hundred | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
military personnel in the region on this campaign. -- 1000 100. I know | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
the House will want to join me in paying tribute to them and their | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
families who are not with us. The RAF have conducted over 760 air | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
strikes on Iraq and since December 43 strikes in Syria, more than any | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
other nation except the US. As well as providing close air support, we | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
have been targeting Daesh communications and infrastructure | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
and providing intelligence and surveillance. In Iraq we have over | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
250 troops who have trained more than 30,000 members of the Iraqi | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
security forces, mainly in countering explosive devices. The | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
extra troops have now started to deploy. 22 engineering Regiment is | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
providing bridge building training was the MoD hospital unit from | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
Northallerton is providing medical expertise. The military campaign is | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
making progress. In Iraq, Daesh is on the back foot and has lost | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
territory. Its finances have been targeted and its leadership has been | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
struck. 40% of the territory Daesh once held has been retaken including | :36:14. | :36:22. | |
re Mardi, last month and another area. Operations for the settlement | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
of Mo is all are underway and at the weekend the Prime Minister admitted | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
-- announce the beginning of the operation to take Fallujah. In Syria | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
this Syrian war and the persistence of Russia's intervention provides a | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
more complex situation despite the cessation of hostilities. The resume | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
has continued to hammer them moderate opposition. In Aleppo, | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
hospitals and schools have been repeatedly shelled. On the 4th of | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
May, the UK called an urgent session of the new -- Security Council to | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
highlight the atrocities. Russia, the Assad regime's protector, must | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
apply pressure to end this finance. Nonetheless, even in Syria Daesh has | :37:08. | :37:15. | |
lost ground and has been driven away from a major supply route. Coalition | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
air strikes have destroyed an estimated $800 million worth of | :37:20. | :37:27. | |
Daesh cash stockpiles whilst the at RAF has/ F feels in eastern Syria. | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
We need to build on this progress and earlier this month I and other | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
coalition defence ministers refute what cert -- what further support we | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
can offer and we are looking at what more the UK can do. Daesh cannot be | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
defeated by military means alone. That brings me to the wider | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
strategy. First on counter ideology, the UK has led the creation of a | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
coalition communications sell to undermine Daesh failing proposition | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
that they are winning militarily, that they are building a viable | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
state and they represent the only true form of Islam. Some in the | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
media have criticised our proactive efforts to discredit Daesh perverted | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
ideology. I say to the House that we make no apology is seeking to stop | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
people being radicalised and stop them becoming Daesh suicide bombers | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
or foot soldiers. We are supporting political reform and reconciliation | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
in Iraq and the ending of the Civil War in Syria and the transition of | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
Assad from power. We are helping to stabilise area is liberated from | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
Daesh so people can return to a safe environments. We have contributed to | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
UN led efforts to remove ie deep's and increased water availability, to | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
rebuild schools, police stations and electricity generators across | :38:59. | :39:06. | |
provinces. In Syria, long term success means a political settlement | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
which delivers a Government that can represent all Syrians that we can | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
work with to tackle Daesh. Last week the International Syria support | :39:16. | :39:17. | |
group reaffirmed its determination to strengthen the cessation of | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
hostilities and set a deadline 1st of June for four humanitarian access | :39:24. | :39:25. | |
to besieged areas. Despite this agreement, attacks have | :39:26. | :39:38. | |
continued, and armed groups or withdrawing from this. We support | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
the envoy in their efforts to resume peace, the success of which depends | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
on the respect for humanitarian access and the discussion of | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
transactions. The UK is playing a full role in addressing the crisis | :39:55. | :40:02. | |
in Syria. At the London conference we doubled our government to Syria | :40:03. | :40:10. | |
to 2.3 billion, which has delivered over 20 million food rations for | :40:11. | :40:17. | |
over 4.5 million people. There remain 13.5 million people in need | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
inside Syria. The regime continues to remove vital medical supplies | :40:22. | :40:29. | |
from eight convoys, in violation of international law. It is outrageous | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
that aid itself has become a weapon that aid itself has become a weapon | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
of war. We are stemming the flow of foreign fighters through better | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
international coordination, at least 50 countries now pass fighter | :40:43. | :40:49. | |
profiles to Interpol, 400% increase over two years. We estimate the | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
number of fighters joining Daesh has fallen to around 200 a month from | :40:54. | :41:02. | |
its peak of around 2000 a month. Finally, as Daesh has squeeze into | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
Iraq and Syria, we've seen new branches appear, most concerning the | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
in Libya. We visited Tripoli last month. I spoke to the new Libyan | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
defence minister to repeat our offer of assistance to the new government. | :41:19. | :41:26. | |
Last Monday the international unity reaffirmed its support for that | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
government and it underlined the need for a coordination between | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
legitimate Libyan security forces to fight Daesh and UN designated | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
terrorist groups. Britain would only provide training or other support at | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
the invitation of the Libyan governments or by other authority, | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
and let me reiterate to the House, there are no plans to deploy troops | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
in a combat role. Mr Speaker, since this House supported extending | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
military operations, we have intensified our efforts to defeat | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
Watt. There is a long way to go, and political processes, progress needs | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
to match military progress on the ground. But we can be encouraged. | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
This may be a long campaign, but it is one we have to win, and it is one | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
we will win. I commend this station to the House. May I start by joining | :42:24. | :42:32. | |
the secretary of stayed in recognising the bravery of our Armed | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
Forces? -- secretary of. Daesh and those who fight alongside them must | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
be stopped. I was surprised there wasn't recognition from the | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
Secretary of State about the terrible news of the suicide | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
bombings in Syria, that caused so many fatalities, which serves as a | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
reminder that progress, be measured only in terms of the size of Daesh | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
held society. On the heart of the House, may I express all of our | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
condolences to the victims and their families? A particular development | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
was seen at the weekend, which was the launch of the ground offensive | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
against the Daesh stronghold. It is forgotten that around 350 British | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
troops have also been deployed on the ground in Iraq providing vital | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
training and advice to the Iraqi security forces, who have a sub port | :43:28. | :43:35. | |
and -- who have an important stake here, and we will monitor their | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
progress. Syria is a situation which is more complex. Last year, the | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
Secretary of State said we would tighten the noose around the snake | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
which is rattling. By taking the fight to the capital, this will | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
present a challenge as compared to the previous stages of the campaign. | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
In terms of ground forces, Coalition air strikes to date have been, | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
mentored by a number of armed opposition groups on the ground, | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
particularly in northern Syria. But the white PG is unlikely to have a | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
role, given its resistance to the Kurdish regions. There are questions | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
about the numbers and composition of other armed opposition groups. The | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
House was told that the Free Syrian Army prized a majority of 70,000 | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
moderate fighters, which would fight in Syria. As the Secretary of State | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
has said himself, air strikes have targeted the Free Syrian Army, among | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
other rebel groups opposed to the Assad regime, but not thought to be | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
affiliated to Daesh. There have been reports in the last 24 hours which | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
indicate the Free Syrian Army may be excluded from the US-led plan to | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
liberate the area. Is this right creche mop if it is, how is the | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
government expected to contribute in to the next stage creche mob will | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
they increase efforts to coordinate the allies? Can the Secretary of | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
State is reassure the House further strikes will restrict casualties, it | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
is an area is to be targeted? The statement we have had on the latter | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
point so far have not provided assurances. We are told the review | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
is carried out after each strike to assess the damage, but there are few | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
details of the process. The MoD considers all reports of civilian | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
casualties, but it is not clear how credibility is defined. Neither is | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
it clear how many reports of casualties the government has | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
received, but that found to be credible, nor even how the very | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
difficult distinguish is made in the first place. I welcome the progress | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
made in this fight against Daesh in recent weeks, and I hope to hear in | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
more detail what strategy the government has taken this campaign | :46:02. | :46:02. | |
forward. I'm grateful to the honourable lady | :46:03. | :46:12. | |
for the tone in which she has approached this. She raised three | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
for specific points. So far as suicide bombings are concerned, | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
she's right to draw the attention to them for sub in Iraq the indicate a | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
switch of tactics by Daesh, because they are being pushed west. We are | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
seeing these suicide explosions in Baghdad, but also in Syria as well. | :46:36. | :46:43. | |
She's also to draw attention to the operations that are likely to be | :46:44. | :46:51. | |
needed to liberate both areas, which are of course the main centres | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
occupied by Daesh at the moment, and are going to require quite sustained | :46:56. | :47:06. | |
and formidable operations by the local forces on the ground. Nobody | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
should underestimate the difficulty involved in that, or the timescales | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
that are involved. Some progress is being made in north-east, northern | :47:18. | :47:24. | |
Syria, and there are operations on going to try and sealed the | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
remaining pockets on the border that are not sealed, and to slowly begin | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
to tighten the noose around is the area. Operations have begun to begin | :47:37. | :47:46. | |
to plan how the city may be recovered, and troops have been | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
moved forward to be ready for that. So far as the numbers involved in | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
Syria, she asked me about the estimate of 70,000. Our view is that | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
the estimate has stood up, they are still numbers of that size involved | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
in fighting the regime. The Syrian Democratic forces are part of that | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
struggle. Finally she asked me about civilian casualties. I should make | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
clear to the House we carry out a battle damage assessment after every | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
RAF strike, we look back again at the evidence as to what the strike | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
actually achieved. To satisfy ourselves that there were no | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
civilian casualties involved, and we will of course look especially at | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
any particular allegation that is made, any piece of evidence that | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
comes to light that there may have been civilian casualties. However, | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
at the moment, after one year and a half of operations in Iraq and | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
Syria, our view remains that we have seen no evidence as yet of civilian | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
casualties being caused by other strikes, and that, I would suggest, | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
is treated to the professionalism of the RAF pilots and crews involved as | :49:00. | :49:09. | |
well as the choice of munitions. Russian media are reporting forces | :49:10. | :49:19. | |
are preparing for an assault on a leper, and there is scope for | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
confusion and miss information on identifying opposition forces. Has | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
there been any work done by creating a joint intelligence picture between | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
the countries who are members of the International Syria support group, | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
so that the capacity to miss information in this area can be | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
addressed? My honourable friend, the Minister of state for the middle | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
east, is already involved in that work as to how we can build of a | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
better picture, and my right honourable friend is right, the | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
picture around Aleppo is the most complex of all, with the different | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
groups fighting it, but he makes an important point of sharing | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
intelligence more wildly. May I thank the Secretary of State for the | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
prior statement? In the debate we had in December in this House, we | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
were told the UK's contribution to help defeat Daesh was a brimstone | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
missile, and that partners were pressurising the UK to bring it to | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
the conflict. This unique contribution argument continued, | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
even after it was shown the Saudi Arabian air force had been using | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
brimstone since February of 2015. Despite that, it remain the central | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
plank of the case for extending UK military action into Syria. Indeed, | :50:45. | :50:51. | |
as early, as late as publisher, a Freedom of Information Act ash macro | :50:52. | :51:06. | |
as late The capacity to minimise civilian categories work best when | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
there is human intelligence on the ground to supply precise | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
information, this explains the other great plank of the government's | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
case, the 70,000 moderate ground troops who were a steward to be | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
ready to cut off the head of the Daesh's head. We were told the | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
Coalition are dropping air leaflets, urging the civilian population to | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
flee the city ahead of an imminent attack. The problem is that the | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
civilian publishing of that city are being used as human shields by Daesh | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
and they have threatened to murder on anyone attempting to leave the | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
city. Could the Secretary of State tell me what discussions has he had | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
with our Coalition partners to decide if the RAF will take part in | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
this imminent bombing of the city, with its large civilian population? | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
I'm grateful to the honourable member for his questions, these are | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
largely operational matters, but I'll do my best to respond. The RAF | :52:12. | :52:18. | |
use a number of precision weapons, the brimstone missiles, for example, | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
the different tasks. The brimstone is suited to striking moving | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
vehicles, for example. The others deal with more static targets like | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
command posts. It so happens I can tell the House that yesterday the | :52:32. | :52:41. | |
RAF attacks use all types of munitions, and there will be more | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
details of that in due course. So far as the city is concerned, we | :52:48. | :52:54. | |
never said the RAF would start bombing indiscriminately. The | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
Coalition will be careful in its use of close air support, as the | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
operations begin to first end circle and then eventually to liberate the | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
suburbs and the city centre involved. Obviously we want to | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
ensure that as many civilian lives are saved as possible, and as in the | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
liberation of other cities, of course the Coalition has been | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
encouraging citizens to leave, to make sure that those lies spread. | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
These are things we discussed regularly inside the Coalition. I'm | :53:31. | :53:39. | |
keen to accommodate all of them on this important statements. The | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
timing of which was flagged up last week by the government, but there | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
are also about 30 people seeking to contribute to the subsequent | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
debates. Dizziness personified as what we require. | :53:50. | :54:01. | |
Pithiness. Those who say we need to work with a sad missing the point. | :54:02. | :54:12. | |
They need look no further than when a convoy was prevented of getting to | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
the town to help starving children. And the brutality of this regime | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
means we have no chance of working with him successfully in the future. | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
I agree and do and the brutality of the Assad regime can play no part. | :54:26. | :54:42. | |
They have been using barrel bombs, chlorine, dropping munitions | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
indiscriminately and they have been robbing humanitarian aid convoys of | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
exactly the medicines that the local community needs. What progress has | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
been made in the cutting off of finances to Daesh apart from the | :54:58. | :55:06. | |
sale of oil like lucrative antiquities and the terrible sale of | :55:07. | :55:17. | |
slaves? We have looked at the illegally traded whaler crosses | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
borders and internally in Syria. We have made progress in cutting down | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
the sale of antiques and artefacts in the international markets and we | :55:28. | :55:35. | |
have had been looking into the cash stockpiles that they have been used | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
-- using to finance themselves. One illustration of the progress has | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
been the reports now that Daesh has begun to cut the pay to its own | :55:48. | :55:56. | |
troops. Daesh remains the best funded terrorist group in history | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
despite the fall in the oil price. How confident is the Secretary of | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
State that Daesh can no longer access the financial infrastructure | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
and resources of the Iraqi state given that the Foreign Affairs | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
Committee still waiting for answers from the Iraqi banking authorities | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
as to Daesh ability to make a turn on the state's currency market. | :56:17. | :56:25. | |
Daesh when it originally established its caliphate so rapidly, was able | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
to access finance in the Central Bank in areas in Iraq. It does levy | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
taxes on the towns and cities it controls. I want to assure my | :56:39. | :56:41. | |
honourable friend that this work is in hand and we are making progress | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
in restricting its financial support. Isn't it now clear that the | :56:45. | :56:55. | |
success of the coalition against Isis will be limited so civilians in | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
Syria continue to be subject to starvation tactics, beseech mint and | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
attacks within unity. Isn't it time for a rethink in the UK strategy to | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
focus much more on civilian production and to that end has | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
operational planning begun by the MoD on supporting them in their | :57:15. | :57:23. | |
deadline of the 1st of June on air drops to besieged communities? The | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
difficulty with airdrops is they are difficult to target on the precise | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
population. It is difficult to drop water in large quantities and the | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
United Nations wants to get food in through humanitarian convoys. We | :57:38. | :57:47. | |
will keep that under review. Last year when I was in Iraq, I was | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
honoured to meet some displaced people in a number of camps and the | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
Secretary of State is right to say that in addition to military action, | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
we need to win the peace. When we levitate -- liberates it is like | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
Fallujah, can I have assurances that a key part of this tragedy is making | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
sure that utilities and water and other things to support Civic | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
Society is something that will be very much part of our plan? Per my | :58:19. | :58:29. | |
-- the Chancellor announced at the G7 last year that we are | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
contributing 300 million in loan guarantees to the World Bank 's to | :58:34. | :58:40. | |
help rebuild an strengthen the economy of Iraq. We are contributing | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
to the Iraqi humanitarian fund that will help tackle poverty and help | :58:46. | :58:52. | |
ensure stability. Getting back the essential services on which people | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
did depend to determine rapidly to the areas that have been liberated. | :58:57. | :59:07. | |
The Secretary of State has talked about the... I wonder if he could | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
explain those not familiar with the promotes S the issue where some | :59:12. | :59:20. | |
targets of void at the last minute because of the awareness of a | :59:21. | :59:27. | |
civilian casualty? When selecting and approving targets for deliberate | :59:28. | :59:36. | |
strikes, we take great care to make sure they respect the rules of | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
engagement that I have set on the beginning of the campaign. It may be | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
studied for several days or even weeks to make sure that we | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
understand the pattern of life that it is building and civilians that | :59:49. | :00:00. | |
are seeing this. Right up until the last moment if civilians are | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
discovered to be in the area, this strike can be aborted right at the | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
end. We take care to minimise civilian casualties. It is not | :00:10. | :00:18. | |
impossible that there may be civilian casualties at some point. | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
All I can tell you is the evidence so far, we think we have avoided | :00:24. | :00:31. | |
them. Can I thank the Secretary of State for this update and can I ask | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
what progress has been made in supplying the arms and ammunition to | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
the brave Kurdish Peshmerga forces that they have been requesting so | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
they can continue to take the fight to Daesh on the ground? Yes, we are | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
planning to provide the Kurdish regional Government with over ?1 | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
million worth of further ammunition to equip the Peshmerga. We have | :00:56. | :01:03. | |
supplied ammunition and arms to start with and we have done a lot of | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
training. We have trained 3000 of the Peshmerga to fight but we have | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
this further shipment in hand at the moment and subject to the approval | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
of parliament and there is a special procedure by which Parliament has | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
two signifies approval subject to the prudent apartment. I hope that | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
ammunition will be with the Kurdish Peshmerga in the next few weeks. | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
What assessment has the Secretary of State made in relation to the number | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
of Daesh operating in Europe as opposed to Syria and how effective | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
has worked been preventing conscription to Daesh both here and | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
abroad? It is a very good question because we may well see as the Daesh | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
is squeezed in Syria and Iraq, we may see some backlash from Daesh in | :01:57. | :02:04. | |
its external attack planning against Western European or British targets. | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
We are vigilant and working with our partners cross Europe to make sure | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
that we understand how that attack planning has been carried out and | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
that we can track down those who are likely to be responsible for the | :02:18. | :02:28. | |
future attacks. I think the Secretary of State for the update. I | :02:29. | :02:30. | |
understand there are reports that the Russians have asked the | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
Americans to join them in joint strikes. Have they made such a | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
request for the United Kingdom and if so does the Secretary of State | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
share many concerns that such a move would undermine the political | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
process because many see the Russians as the aggressors? The gift | :02:48. | :02:57. | |
to push the political process on and to use its influence with the Assad | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
regime much more constructively than it has done so far we are covered | :03:02. | :03:10. | |
and our own strike airport -- aircraft are covered by the | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
memorandum between the US and Russia and so far is the conflict in the | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
aerospace. We are not otherwise core operating. First of all I welcome | :03:21. | :03:29. | |
this quarterly report and we need to be in a cycle of delivering these | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
reports with a focus on Daesh. I would like to thank the Secretary of | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
State and the MoD for the helpful briefing that was given yesterday in | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
relation to Daesh. I asked two questioned yesterday. One was about | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
no-fly zones and the secretary is clear that there is no scope for fly | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
zones at the moment. I hope you will keep that under review so if Assad | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
on the Russians agreed to it, that we can implement it rapidly. The | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
second question which wasn't answered was in relation to Raqqa | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
and Mozilla. If they are turned into Stalingrad, wasp or can we give to | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
civilians within those cities? We are added into the quarterly rhythm. | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
First statement was December and the next one is February. It is useful | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
to be updated on that kind of timescale. No-fly zones, it is the | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
practical application of the no-fly zone that I need persuading about | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
and not clear at the moment how a no-fly zone could be properly | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
policed. The worst thing would be to offer a no-fly zone that is not | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
actually safe. On his final point on Raqqa, these are large cities but at | :04:46. | :04:54. | |
the moment large civilian populations need operations that | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
will take a long time. They will take a long time to persuade those | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
billions that Daesh is not their future and they would be best placed | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
to leave while the fighting is going on. I pay tribute to the men and | :05:08. | :05:16. | |
women of our armed services who are working day in, day out to liberate | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
people from Daesh. When he confirmed to me what preparations are being | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
made for post-conflict reconstruction one areas are | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
liberated from Daesh and what part the UK's playing in that? I am | :05:32. | :05:39. | |
grateful for what he said and I will ensure that is passed back to all | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
those involved in this huge effort, our biggest single military | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
undertaking the moment. Civilisation is the key to this. After liberating | :05:51. | :05:58. | |
a town or city it is essential to offer the local population security | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
and stability they need be able to return. We are cooperating with our | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
partners and there is a huge amount of work going on, on a stabilisation | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
effort. It will be offered to each city and town in turn as it is | :06:12. | :06:20. | |
liberated. Thank you for taking me so early so I can get out of the | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
Chamber and is there everybody my germs. Thank you for his statement. | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
Given the large areas of north-eastern Syria that cannot be | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
secured, can the Minister outline what practical supply -- but were | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
given to the Syrian Kurds what effort is being made to include in | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
diplomatic negotiations? It is problematic for a key actor to be | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
included for peace talks given their strategic importance in any future | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
peace settlement. The Kurds are represented in the Syrian talks and | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
is not the object of these talks and we shouldn't do skewed every Kurdish | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
group. The Syrian Kurds have to be part of the solution. Many of them | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
have come forward in the fight against Daesh as well as the fight | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
against the regime and they have to be part of the future. I would also | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
like to thank my right honourable friend for his update today and to | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
add my thanks to the British military personnel who was serving | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
in the region on our behalf. I would like to ask what assurance he can | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
give us here in the House today that as the military campaign progresses, | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
that we are doing all we can to ensure the political track also | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
moves forward? We have these talks underway for the future of Syria and | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
they need to make more progress. She is right. In Iraq we have not seen | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
the political progress we need to match the military progress which is | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
getting ahead of the reforms and securitisation and stabilisation | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
that we need to see following on, particularly in Anbar Province. We | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
owed the Government to crack on with the reforms that are needed to | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
create a national Guard in which people can have confidence, to give | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
the governors the powers they need to get essential services up and | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
running and to ensure that the areas that are liberated them properly | :08:29. | :08:36. | |
policed. The Secretary of State's statement doesn't refer at all to | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
either the Syrian Kurds or to the Iraqi Kurds. In answer to a question | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
earlier he said that there would be at some point in the future the long | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
delayed supply of relation to the Peshmerga. Can he tell us why it is | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
taking so long? The Peshmerga are able to access ammunition for a | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
number of serve -- sources. They have the funding to purchase it and | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
some more funding has gone in from the US recently. We are not able to | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
supply the Kurdish Peshmerga direct. It is part of the unitary state of | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
Iraq and therefore supplies have to be rooted through Iraq and we also | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
have to consider the needs of the Iraqi forces, the Iraqi army itself. | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
I have agreed this new shipment of ammunition and I hope it will be | :09:37. | :09:38. | |
going out there surely. I thank the Secretary of State for | :09:39. | :09:51. | |
the update. What is clear is that when areas are liberated, venues be | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
a system of law and order to be put in place. Would he agree that whilst | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
there may be some need for transitional arrangements, in the | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
long-term sad cannot be the solution in Syria? -- Assad. There is no | :10:05. | :10:14. | |
future for a sad in Syria. He needs to depart. We want to see what we | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
have in Iraq, the government that is representative of all groups in | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
Syria, who are prepared to work towards a democratic and | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
representative administration. The Secretary of State said it is | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
outrageous that aid has become a weapon of war, and those outrages | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
have consequences for civilians and four children that are grievous, and | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
with that in mind, can I ask what preparation is going on woman the UK | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
Government to make sure such crimes are investigated, and at some point | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
in the future, someone is held accountable? I can give heard that | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
reassurance, that'll be an important part of the work that will be needed | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
when the conflict finally ends. We are already now working with people | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
to collect, to see what they need, the funding and resources they need, | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
to collect the evidence that will be required to nail those responsible. | :11:21. | :11:31. | |
It is often said that any lasting peaceful solution in Syria will only | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
take place in partnership with Russia, that's been a view that is | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
being expressed here. Two questions. When did they last meet with the | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
Foreign Secretary and respective Russian government, and will the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
Secretary of State make a commitment that the peaceful solution delivered | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
in a three-year target date for having? On the first, Russia has | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
legitimate interests and inference in Syria, and we want to bring that | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
to bear constructively. So far as the Foreign Secretary is concerned, | :12:11. | :12:18. | |
he needs his counterpart, he met him last week. On the third and final | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
question, I said an original timescale, it wasn't mine, it was | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
secretary Ceri's timescale, when we asked the House to motionless. He | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
said it would take three years. We're not into the second year, it | :12:38. | :12:49. | |
is going to be a long campaign. Turkey is a key Nato ally and a | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
partner with others in the fight against Daesh. It has taken in and | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
provided a safe haven to millions of people fleeing from the terror in | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
Syria and Iraq. Can I ask the Secretary of State, what support is | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
the UK Government offering Turkey in its internal fight against Daesh and | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
the terrorist attacks it has experience, and also the other | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
groups that have been identified that are operating there? I visited | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
Ankara for discussions just after one of the first attacks the in | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
Turkey. We have offered Turkey systems on the counter terrorism, | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
and we should applaud the role Turkey is playing in looking after | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
so many refugees, over 2 million refugees, the efforts they are | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
making to close the border and to stem the flow of foreign fighters, | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
and to restrict Daesh's ability to trade in arm. Turkey deserves | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
enormous credit for that. So far as the latter part of her question, I | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
hope she will allow me to answer that. In the Secretary of State's | :14:01. | :14:08. | |
statement, he refers to the number of fighters reducing down to 200. I | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
wondered if he could say, has he made any assessment of the numbers | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
of UK citizens who have been travelling out to support Daesh, | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
both male and female, and how many have been returning to the UK? I | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
will try get that more specific information to her, which I don't | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
have at hand. The estimate of 200 is 200 foreign fighters joining a | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
month, the figure of 2000 joining a month when they were at its peak a | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
couple of years ago. They have more than 200, but the flow of new | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
foreign fighters has reduced considerably. | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
At the time of the Syria debate in October, there was goddess gestures | :14:53. | :15:01. | |
that Russia would work toward a stable transition in Syria within a | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
six-month period. Clearly it hasn't happened. Can the Secretary of State | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
say if there's any hope of Russia playing a constructive role or not? | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
We hope for that, and it is a pressing it hasn't happened. Russia | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
has huge inference, it could have been playing a more constructive | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
role, but we've seen what happened after the so-called hostilities | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
agreed in February. We still see Russia playing a malevolent role, | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
claiming to withdraw some of its forces but supplying new helicopters | :15:34. | :15:44. | |
and not directing its fire against the Daesh. He asked what hope, we | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
should always be hopeful, we will continue to engage forever assured | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
and urge them to bring it inference that there -- it's | :15:55. | :16:06. | |
influence to bear. It is extremely difficult to establish any kind of | :16:07. | :16:16. | |
safe corridor in Syria, vertically northern Syria, where such groups | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
are under most threats. If I may, I will look at that specifically | :16:23. | :16:31. | |
later. This point about civilian deaths is really important because | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
the assurance we were given last year when asked to stand the is | :16:35. | :16:42. | |
estimated time for air strikes with a central point in persuading me to | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
support the government proposal, so whilst I welcome what he said today, | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
what additional reassurance can he provide about the steps the REF is | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
taken to protect civilians in Syria and ensure they are not the victims | :16:58. | :17:07. | |
of the REF work? -- REF. We have rules of engagement, as well as in | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
Iraq, those are different the rules and each country. Any deliberate | :17:14. | :17:22. | |
targets have to the approved, and that will include the choice of | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
munition involved and an absolute assurance that on civilians using or | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
near likely to use that particular building or area that is likely to | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
be bombed. That is checked. Over a period of days, perhaps weeks, while | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
the target is watched. And our commanders in the operations centre | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
in the Gulf, as well as the pilots themselves, can up until the last | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
moment pull-back from the strike itself if they have any concern at | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
all there may be civilians in the area. Now, obviously in some of the | :17:59. | :18:07. | |
areas where there is very intense fighting, whether it's close air | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
support, it is going to be more and more difficult to ensure that we | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
avoid civilian casualties, but all I can say is that our policy is to | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
absolutely avoid the risk of civilian casualties, and so far we | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
believe the art AF had been successful in doing that -- REF. If | :18:25. | :18:33. | |
the government predictions have proven correct, Syria would have a | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
transitional government next week. What is the Minister's most up to | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
date predictions on these two milestones? To be honest, I would | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
not have predicted the progress that has been made in Iraq over the last | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
few weeks and months, which has been more rapid than I would have | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
believed, had the honourable member asked me that during the debate in | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
September. In Syria, it has been faster than we would have wanted, | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
far slower than I thought would be the case when it was agreed in | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
Munich in February. But this is war, there are a lot of people involved, | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
who have an interest in sustaining this war, especially the Assad | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
regime, and we have to keep working at it. You will be aware of Daesh's | :19:26. | :19:38. | |
attacks on Aleppo, very brutal and violent. Many thousands of people | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
died and were injured, so there were 225,000 Christians who live there, | :19:45. | :19:52. | |
they used to be 80,000 Armenian Christians, now only 10,000. What | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
stats for the government take to ensure any support or opposition | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
groups does not indirectly benefit extremist targeting minorities such | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
as to questions in Aleppo? What is happening in Aleppo is nothing short | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
of a tragedy. It is a beautiful city, a tolerance city which | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
contains... I visited myself, it contains all kinds of groups, from | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
different faves living and working happily alongside each other. But it | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
is important that those groups too, all of them, are represented in the | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
drive for a political settlement, and that is our aim. I join the | :20:32. | :20:42. | |
condemnation of the attacks and raids on aid convoys. What support | :20:43. | :20:50. | |
can the UK pervades to such convoys? -- provides. That is very difficult | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
in Syria with multiple strikes being carried out by the regime against | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
its opponents. As well as our need to continue to keep the pressure up | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
on the infrastructure that supports the Daesh. These attacks could stop, | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
it's within the gift of the regime to stop them, and it within the gift | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
of the Russians to bring their influence to bear, and I hope they | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
will do. The Defence Secretary topped about people returning to a | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
safe environments, something we would all support. What more is | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
being done by the International committee to secure the freedom of | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
the Yazidi women who were captured and put into slavery? We have had | :21:37. | :21:45. | |
some success in pop relations were telling, particularly in to Crete | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
where the bus majority of the population has returned. -- basta | :21:52. | :22:01. | |
majority -- vast majority. There are different circumstances in each of | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
these areas. So far as the Yazidi women are concerned, we're working | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
with the engineers to see what we can do to identify where they are | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
being held and what more could be done to help them too to return. | :22:18. | :22:26. | |
Just returning to the statement where the Secretary of State says a | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
foreign fighters reduced to 200 a month. That is welcome. We can build | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
upon that to drive back down to zero and isolated. Yes, I hope so and we | :22:39. | :22:47. | |
are working closely with our partners, there are over 40 | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
countries reporting in on foreign fighters through Interpol and the | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
other international organisations, said that we share information about | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
these fighters as they travelled towards Iraq or Syria, and of course | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
we have to play our part in ensuring more people aren't being radicalised | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
here and keep tabs on those who are likely to go out there. Would the | :23:10. | :23:19. | |
Secretary of State to give insurance cut assurance to the House that the | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
Daesh will not take part in air strikes against Temple macro in | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
Libya without a further vote in this House -- Daesh. We're not planning | :23:30. | :23:37. | |
any combat role for our troops or the RAF in Libya, that is not part | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
of our planning. If we considered further military action against the | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
Daesh, where ever it was, we would of course come to this House to | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
discuss it first. The recent report by young Syrians argues that many | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
acts as a key recruiter for Daesh, claiming that while the Syrian army | :24:02. | :24:09. | |
pays for example $100 a month, Daesh could pay three times that. What | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
alternative economic options for young Syrians are there to undermine | :24:13. | :24:22. | |
Daesh's recruitment? The first thing is to undermine Daesh's own access | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
to revenue and finance, and there is some evidence we are beginning to do | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
that, to reduce it to the earnings it gets from oil and other trades, | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
and some evidence, anecdotal perhaps, a body of evidence that it | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
pay rates to fighters are actually being reduced. Beyond that, we got | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
to get the Syrian economy going, and the sooner we get a critical | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
settlement, we can get the money in, which a lot of other countries | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
pledged jeering the London conference, money ready and waiting | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
to go in to build the Syrian economy and to do the most important thing | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
of all, which is to give the young people of Syria a reason to stay in | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
Syria and to build a new society there that are safe and secure for | :25:08. | :25:08. | |
their future. The clerk will read the orders of | :25:09. | :25:22. | |
the day. The Queen's Speech, adjourned debate for question. The | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
question is that a humble address be presented to Her Majesty as on the | :25:27. | :25:35. | |
order paper. Mr Hammond. I am delighted to open this debate and | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
want to congratulate the opposition on selecting it. The security of | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
Britain and the British people, our relations with Europe and the | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
promotion of Britain's values including human rights around the | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
world at the heart of our foreign policy. When you're into this | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
parliament, the challenges we face to our security, prosperity and | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
values have not diminished. If anything, they are growing. The | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
threat posed by Daesh and its affiliates continues and is now | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
manifested itself in attacks in European cities. The wider in the | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
Middle East persists. The Israel Palestine question is no nearer a | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
solution. North Korea has demonstrated his determination to | :26:24. | :26:25. | |
flout international law by developing nuclear weapons and | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
ballistic missile is to deliver them. And Russia the same by its | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
kind to nude destabilisation of Ukraine and its illegal occupation | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
of Crimea. -- the same by its destabilisation. The eastern | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
Mediterranean is presenting new challenges to our new neighbours in | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
Europe. And as we approach the referendum in just over four weeks' | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
time, even the theoretical possibility that Britain might vote | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
to leave the European Union is having a chilling effect on economic | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
growth and business, and consumer confidence. Whatever we look, our | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
world is becoming more dangerous and more uncertain. Madam Deputy | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
Speaker, against this hazardous global backdrop, some have argued | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
for retrenchment and withdrawal from a global role as the safest option. | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
We cannot turn our backs. As a trading nation, with one of the | :27:26. | :27:34. | |
largest and most that Mac... Our security depends on global stability | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
and order. With 5 million British National is living overseas and | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
million more travelling every year, and with our trade dependent on the | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
sea lanes and airways that our arteries of commerce, international | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
engagement and influence are fundamental to maintaining Britain's | :27:54. | :28:01. | |
security and prosperity. I give way. My rate of honourable friend paints | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
a picture of us wanting to retrench for those who wish to leave the | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
European Union. This could not be further for the truth and I suggest | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
that Project Fear is going down a negative path. In leaving, we would | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
have greater freedoms to trade and foreign deals with the rest of the | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
world. We are barred from doing that at the moment, as a member of the | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
EU, we cannot form individual trading agreements. Project | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
Paranoia, I was not referring to the exit campaign. I was just observing | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
there have been that those who have suggested pretensions. Since my | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
honourable friend has taken me in that direction, let me answer his | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
question. We enjoy free trade with 53 nations high virtue of free trade | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
agreements negotiated by the European Union. Those campaigning | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
for an exit, if we were to leave the European Union, they tell me, we | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
would rapidly to go seek new trade agreements with the European Union | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
itself and the 53 countries that that union has free-trade agreements | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
with. Our experience in the free world is that these agreements take | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
lots of time. The EU Canada agreement has been seven years in | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
the negotiating and it is still not ratified. Another small problem that | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
my honourable friend should think about, we do not actually have any | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
trade negotiators. The BBC team to negotiate these 53 plus one | :29:35. | :29:41. | |
agreements from scratch. -- the BBC can do. The European Union has | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
negotiated Oliver trade agreement on our behalf and we do not have civil | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
servants -- experienced in this field. Has he made any assessment of | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
how many additional members of staff either his department or the | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
business department would have to have in order to deal with this | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
problem and how many years it would take to train them? The latter point | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
is more important than the first if I may say so. It is not just a | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
question of people that out, call up the job centre and say, could you | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
send us some experienced trade negotiators? We would literally be | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
starting from scratch. When I look across the Atlantic at the world's | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
largest economy and the trade negotiation team they have under | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
Peter Froman, an extremely good team, it is a very small team. They | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
have struggled to carry out two trade negotiations in parallel. The | :30:40. | :30:47. | |
idea that any matter of months or years we would've negotiated a | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
massive deal with the European union and 53 separate trade agreements | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
with other countries around the world, before starting on the | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
expansion programme that my honourable friend refers to, is, to | :31:01. | :31:08. | |
quote the Prime Minister, the birds. Isn't it actually worse than he is | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
setting out because many of those countries have signed trade deals | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
with the European Union in order to get access to the single market and | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
was he as dismayed as I was to hear major opponents of Boat Leads call | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
for us not to be joining single market if we leave? I was astonished | :31:29. | :31:36. | |
to hear leading exit campaign suggesting that we do not want to be | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
part of the single market. Until relatively recently, the position | :31:43. | :31:44. | |
was that we could have it all. We could be outside but somehow we can | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
get free and privileged access to the single market, something that | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
was never likely to be possible but was at least an omission. Now we are | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
told we do not want to be part of the single market. -- and ambition. | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
That is a manifesto for the impoverishment of the British | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
people. From the Treasury model, we would be looking at ?3500 per annum | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
per household by the end of the next decade, production and our standard | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
of living. As the Prime Minister said yesterday, sometimes we have to | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
deal with recessions and economic pressure that comes from us from | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
outside. -- a reduction. We do not have to deal with a DIY recession | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
that is entirely self-inflicted and we should avoid it at all costs. I | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
would like to make some progress of the Honourable Member would allow | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
me. In the security and defence review and the spending review | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
published at the end of last year, we took decisions to invest in our | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
security and safeguard our prosperity, to maintain our | :32:52. | :32:53. | |
world-class Armed forces, to grow our unique security and intelligence | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
agencies and through the investigatory Powers Bill to give | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
them the powers they need to track down terrorists and others who seek | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
to do us harm and to protect our global Hippocratic network by | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
maintaining the FCO's budget in real terms. This is underpinned to make | :33:11. | :33:20. | |
the need to target of 2% of GDP as defence spending and 0.7% a target | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
of GNI on overseas aid, making Britain the only major country in | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
the world that meets both of these commitments. I give way to my | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
honourable friend. He mentioned diplomatic... Would you remind the | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
House how many new diplomatic posts have been opened under this | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
Government and its coalition predecessor when we previously did | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
not have diplomatic representation? My honourable friend is testimony on | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
the exact number. I think it is one dozen new posts or more that had | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
been opened but I will write to him with the exact figure. The important | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
point is that we have opened new posts in secondary cities in China. | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
When we talk about a secondary city in China, it is one of the | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
population between 5-10,000,000. And in India as well as reopening posts | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
in Latin America that we had withdrawn from. He mentioned a | :34:19. | :34:29. | |
commitment to the 2% of GDP on defence spending, can he not | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
confirmed that had we not transparent ?820 million from the | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
pensions budget and other funds from other departments, Britain would | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
have fallen below the 2% and by this sleight of hand, yes, we have | :34:47. | :34:54. | |
committed to need 2% but have not added a single penny to the defence | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
budget when we face a very dangerous world indeed. My right honourable | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
friend where both defence ministers in a past life and there is no | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
sleight of hand. The 2% target which is a Nato target is based on Nato | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
definitions and Britain will stem the 2% of its GDP on defence | :35:16. | :35:23. | |
spending -- will spend. That is according to Nato definitions. | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
Talking to people in the defence community, the important thing for | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
them is not the amount of money that is being spent today, it is the | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
long-term commitment to maintaining defence spending of 2% of our GDP so | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
that our spending on our defence will rise in line with our | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
prosperity as a nation and that is the right thing for us to do. I will | :35:46. | :35:53. | |
be tempted by my honourable friend and will take one more intervention. | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
My right honourable friend is right, no Nato rules have been broken and | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
we can argue about whether there was any new money or whether it was | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
money we could have counted in the past but didn't. The important point | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
is that 2% is not a target for us, it is a minimum. The last time we | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
faced threats of the sort that we are facing now was in the 1980s. In | :36:16. | :36:22. | |
those days we spent between 4-5% of the GDP on defence. We're not | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
talking here about bringing the church bells over 2%, we need to | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
raise our sights to a higher figure altogether. My friend is right. This | :36:33. | :36:40. | |
is a minimum commitment. They reassured and it gives to our armed | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
forces and our military about that level of spend and the fact it is | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
linked to our rising GDP is very important. There is another point | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
that is equally as important. It is not just the amount of money that is | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
spent, although that is important, it is how we spend it in order to | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
ensure the maximum defence effect. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will come to | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
the honourable lady in a moment. The first duty of any British Government | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
is to keep our homeland and people safe and secure. Today, threats to | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
that security take to my principal forms. The immediate risk of | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
terrorism associated with violent extremist Islamist and Daesh in | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
particular. And the longer term threat from the breakdown of rules | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
in the international system which has underpinned our safety and | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
prosperity since the end of the Cold War. We are engaged in what the | :37:35. | :37:44. | |
Prime Minister has described as a generational struggle against | :37:45. | :37:45. | |
Islamist extremism. It is a struggle against not a particular country or | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
a particular organisation, but against a poisonous ideology that | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
looks to conduct one of the world's great religions. The terrorist | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
attacks in the last year in Paris, Brussels, in the skies over Egypt | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
and the beaches of Tunisia, in Baghdad, Lebanon and Pakistan. Many | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
other places, it has demonstrated the threat of Islamist extremism is | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
global. It is a threat that seeks to undermine our values, our democracy | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
and freedom. It is targeting British citizens and those of our allies. In | :38:22. | :38:28. | |
spite of the tragic loss of life, we should not overlook the progress we | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
have made in pushing Daesh back in Iraq and Syria and undermining the | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
Accord narrative of the caliphate. The Defence Secretary has set out in | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
his statement to the House the leading role that the UK has played | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
and the military success that we are achieving in Iraq and Syria. And | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
now, as the tide turns against Daesh. We are turning their own | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
weapons against them. Harnessing the power of the Internet to expose | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
their lives, challenge the ideology and undermine the claim to be a | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
viable state. On the humanitarian front, Britain continues to be at | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
the forefront of the international response. We have committed over | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
?2.3 billion of sales and at the London conference in February, we | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
raised more than $12 billion, the largest amount ever raised in a | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
single day for a humanitarian crisis. At the International said in | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
a support group meeting in June Ivan Basso Judy, a British proposal to | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
begin US you got to be seen to communities in Syria at President | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
Assad blocks access was agreed by all parties. -- in February. | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
Including the Russians and Iranians. Through the leading role, Britain is | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
at the forefront of the international effort to end the | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
setting in the Civil War. A precondition to defeating Daesh and | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
to dealing with the migration crisis in Europe. We are clear that we need | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
and inclusive political solution to this conflict and to get that, we | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
need to see all members using their influence to deliver the -- the | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
transitional Government they have all signed up for. The Government | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
that can provide stability, can represent all Syrians and that we in | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
the international Committee can work to defeating Daesh. | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
Does hae gree that for the threat of June 1 deadline to be credible, | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
World Food Programme planes need to be protected by member states or we | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
need to do the drops ourselves? Has operational planning begun from dive | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
ID and the Ministry of Defence to enable the drops to proceed? The | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
plan is that the drops will be made by the World Food Programme using | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
contracted civilian aircraft. The World Food Programme is already | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
making food air drops into the isolated city in the east of Syria, | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
and it has done so successfully without loss to those aircraft. | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
Clearly there are operational aspects to this, which the members | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
of the ISSG, particularly the Americans and the Russians are now | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
working through. We will seek undertakings from the regime. It is | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
also the case that we know that the Russians have let us say significant | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
influence of the operation over the regime's air defence system. We | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
expect all members of the ISSG to do everything in their power to ensure | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
those drops are successful and carried out without undue risk to | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
the aircrew undertaking them. I will in a moment, I will give way to the | :41:41. | :41:48. | |
honourable gentleman. He'll be aware that the Idomeni camp has been | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
closed. Is he aware of where those refugees are going to be placed as | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
an alternative? And are there UK officials on the ground to assist | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
with the refugees? I can't answer the honourable gentleman's question | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
but I can tell him that the UNHCR is heavily engaged in this action and | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
trying to ensure that the people involved, the people affected are | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
properly cared for throughout and relocated in accommodation, which is | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
at least as secure and as adequate as the accommodation that they're in | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
at present. I give way to my honourable friend. What assessment | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
has my right honourable friend make, he's said many times, that President | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
Putin is one of the few people in the world who can do a lot in this | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
situation - with the attacks yesterday on some of the Assad | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
strong hold areas, not touched before, what about Russia's | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
involvement moving forward and looking at a new dimension, it is | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
quite close to some Russian bases? My honourable friend is absolutely | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
right. The Russians will be making constant calculation about how to | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
extract maximum leverage from their involvement in Syria while | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
minimising their exposure. I suspect that some in the Russian high | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
command and in the Kremlin will have been deeply uncomfortable about the | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
fact that yesterday these Daesh attacks were launched in areas | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
previously thought to be under rock solid regime control and very close | :43:20. | :43:28. | |
to Russian military facilities. It does change theical Clarence House. | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
-- the calculus. It adds to the weight that we need to work together | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
to get a successful transition in Syria to a government that is | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
supported by all Syrians and then work together with that government | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
to defeat the evil that is Daesh. Madam Deputy Speaker, progress to | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
our objective of defeating Daesh will only be possible if the barrel | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
bombings end, if the cessation of hostilities is respected, if | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
humanitarian access to besieged communities is granted and if all | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
sides are prepared to negotiate seriously to achieve political | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
transition. So much for Syria. In Iraq, we will continue to continue | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
to support the efforts of the prime minister there to sear his country, | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
and to deliver the political and economic reform they need. National | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
reconciliation, security, stabilisation of liberated areas | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
from Daesh and the provision of jobs and basic services. We've always | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
said that winning the fight against Daesh would take time. But we have | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
no doubt of our ultimate success in Iraq, in Syria and indeed in Libya. | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
However, winning the hearts and minds of tens of millions of young, | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
potentially vulnerable Muslims who see extremism as a credible response | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
to the lack of opportunity many of them face will be a longer-term | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
challenge for us. I'm grateful to the Foreign Secretary in giving way. | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
Of course, I think everyone agrees here one has to defeat violent and | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
nonviolent extremism. In relation to the extremism Bill in the Queen's | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
speech, can the Foreign Secretary clarify how the Bill will define | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
when an individual has crossed the threshold in relation to what is | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
acceptable and what is not acceptable, so that communities and | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
enforcement agencies know when to take action? And will there be full | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
consultation with all faith communities on this matter in My | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
honourable friend, of course, has hit on a crucial point, that the | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
boundary line between acceptable and non-acceptable behaviour is a fine | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
one and it's one fraught with dangers. It's a minefield area. My | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
right honourable friend, the Home Secretary intends to put forward | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
some of the Government's thoughts on this and consult extensively before | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
legislation is introduced. I hope that re-assures my honourable | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
friend. I give way. I agree with much of what he's said on the | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
complexity of the situation in Syria, Iraq and Libya. When we have | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
a complex set of humanitarian, terrorist circumstances, lots of | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
different things, we have to act in concert across all areas of | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
international operation. Let me turn briefly to the issue of Yemen. We | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
discussed it in the House today, extremely complex situation with | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
huge humanitarian needs, where we were involved, whether we like it or | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
not, in whatever capacity, either directly or through our relationship | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
with Saudi Arabia, it is crucial that we act in concert across those | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
areas of international policy? Will' grow to an independent assessment | :46:45. | :46:53. | |
about the use of cluster munitions that might undermine our place in | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
that conflict? In relation to the specific point at the end, there's a | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
specific allegation that's been made that British-made cluster munitions | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
that will have been made and delivered probably 30 years ago, may | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
have been used. We don't believe that is the case. The MoD and he | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
will have heard the Defence Minister say this today, the MoD is carrying | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
out an urgent investigation into these allegations. We'll look at the | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
evidence. We'll then decide how to move forward. We have a high level | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
of confidence that British-made cluster munitions have not been used | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
in this conflict. Of course, we must look at these allegation that has | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
been made, at any evidence that is presented in support of it and | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
respond appropriately. He's just mentioned Libya, where with | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
hindsight it's clear after the fall of Gaddafi we didn't give enough | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
support to the government we then recognised and the place has | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
collapsed into anarchy and is a possible base for Isis. Secretary of | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
State for defence said that we were offering security assistance to the | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
government we now recognise, if and when they request it. Can he tell me | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
whether his department and other departments of Government are giving | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
every other possible diplomatic and political support to this | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
government, because until they can establish themselves as a real | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
administration, capable of actually delivering services to the public | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
and winning some public support, we run the danger again of having a | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
slightly fictional government in Tripoli and the rest of the country | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
falling prey to anarchy or even to Isis? I'm sure my right honourable | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
friend would readily agree, hindsight is indeed a wonderful | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
thing. My honourable friend has reminded me on the bench that there | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
were elections held in Libya after the fall of Gaddafi. It's since then | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
that things have gone wrong. On the question of support to the prime | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
minister and the government of national accord, yes, we are | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
providing technical, diplomatic, political assistance. He will recall | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
that I visited Tripoli a few weeks ago. We're working very closely with | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
the prime minister there, both bilaterally and through the European | :49:25. | :49:31. | |
Union. The prime minister was at the meeting in Vienna last Monday, in | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
which 20 odd countries got together to discuss how to best support what | :49:38. | :49:39. | |
that government is doing. I'd say this to my right honourable friend, | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
it is a complex situation in Libya, but I think the prime minister there | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
is approaching this in the right way, a bottom-up approach. He's not | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
trying to create a government that can rule Libya in some monolithic | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
fashion, because that's not practical. He's trying to create an | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
umbrella government in which municipalities are empowered to | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
deliver the services and run the structures that people need. We have | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
considerable experience of that approach, including indeed in Syria, | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
working with devolved levels of government in small areas to | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
establish good governance. I suspect that's a more realistic approach | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
than a top-down. I'm happy to give way. I do thank the Secretary of | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
State for giving way. On the issue of Libya, can he confirm whether or | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
not he's had any consultations with the neighbouring country of Algeria? | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
They have great experience of dealing with terrorism. They have | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
had huge problems as a result of the instability in Libya. They could be | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
a huge asset and support to stabilising that neighbouring | :50:48. | :50:49. | |
country. Are those consultations taking place? Yes. I can confirm | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
that to her. I've visited Algeria. My honourable friend has visited | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
aljeerament the Algerians are -- Algeria. The Algerians are playing a | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
significant role. For many years Algeria has taken an isolationist, | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
noninterventionist approach. They are at risk from what is going on in | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
Libya as a neighbouring country. They recognise that. They are | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
engaging with the challenge. We're extremely grateful for the support | :51:17. | :51:23. | |
that Algeria, with its considerable experience of dealing with a major | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
scale insurgency, that they are able to deliver. I'm going to make a | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
little progress, if my honourable friend will allow as he's had one | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
bite of the cherry already. Mr Speaker, while we step up the fight | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
against Daesh and Islamist extremism, the old challenge of | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
state-base add depression has not gone away. To our east, Russia's | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
disregard for international norms, its illegal an ex--ation of Crimea | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
and destabilisation of eastern Ukraine are echoes of an era that | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
frankly, most of us thought had passed with the fall of the Berlin | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
Wall. They represent a clear threat to the stability of the post-Cold | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
War European security order, and more widely, to the rules-based | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
international system on which an open, free trading, liberal | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
democracy like ours depends. As well as violating the sovereign territory | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
of another country and undermining the rules-based system, Russia's | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
actions in Ukraine has led to the loss of more than 9,000 lives and | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
the displacement of up to a million people from their homes. | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
Responsibility for this human misery lies squarely at the door of the | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
Kremlin, a direct result of a deliberate policy that seeks to deny | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
the right of independent, former Soviet Republics to determine their | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
own economic and political destiny. This Government remains clear that | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
Russia must be held to account for its actions. We will work through | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
the EU to keep up the economic pressure with hard-hitting and | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
carefully-calibrated sanctions. Those sanctions must remain in place | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
until such time as Russia delivers on the pledges it made at Minsk. We | :53:08. | :53:16. | |
will continue to provide nonlethal support and training to the | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
Ukrainian armed forces and building on British military units rotating | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
through Poland and the Baltic states, at the Nato summit in June | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
we will announce further measures to re-assure eastern allies in the face | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
of this continuing aggression. At the same time, Madam Deputy Speaker, | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
we will engage with Russia, where it is clearly in our national interest | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
to do so. Russia, along with Iran, is one of the two countries which | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
have real influence on the Syrian regime and as members of the ISSG | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
they have the principal responsibility for telling Assad it | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
is time to go. We will continue to work with Russia on Syria and at the | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
UN. We will continue to collaborate with them on counter-terrorism where | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
British lives are potentially at risk. But it will not be business as | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
usual. All nations must know that we cannot and will not look the other | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
way while the rules-based system is repeatedly violated. We look | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
forward, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the time when Russia will rejoin the | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
community of nations as a partner in upholding the international rules. | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
But our eyes are wide-open and we know that may be a long time coming. | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
As we said in the 2010 STS Star and again in 2015, Britain's National | :54:41. | :54:50. | |
security is indivisible from our economic security. We cannot keep | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
people safe we do not have a strong economy and vice versa. As we | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
continue to deal with the economic legacy we have inherited, bringing | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
down the deficit and restoring sustainable growth to the economy, | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
we have been strengthening our diplomatic muscle in emerging | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
economies to grow trade and to support jobs here at home. Those | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
efforts are paying off. The state visit of China's president last year | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
generated some ?40 billion of commercial deals, creating more than | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
5000 permanent jobs in this country. ?40 million. The UK and Indian | :55:28. | :55:36. | |
businesses agreed deals worth ?9 billion. In what investment from | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
India in 2014-15 created more than 7000 new jobs and safeguarded more | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
than 1500 other jobs. And since they deal with the Republic of Korea in | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
2011, the value of UK exports to Korea has more than doubled. While | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
we seek to grow our links with the world's emerging economies, our | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
trade and investment relationship with the European Union will always | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
be central to our economic success story. As the House knows, the | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
Government's clear view of Britain's continued prosperity is best served | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
by remaining a leading member of the reform European Union. It is a | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
membership that puts us as the number two economic power inside the | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
world's single -- largest single market with the seat at the | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
decision-making table. A market of 500 million consumers with one | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
quarter of the world's GDP. A market which purchases 44% of Britain's | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
exports. There is a world of difference between being inside such | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
a market with tariff free access as of right, and being outside of it, | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
scrabbling for a deal. Between making the rules of the market to | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
protect our interests and being governed by rules designed for the | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
benefit and advantage of others. It is a membership that safeguards the | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
pound and the Bank of England and with the deal that the Prime | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
Minister negotiated in it is a membership that keeps us out of the | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
Schengen agreement, outside closer union and limits the access of | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
migrants to our welfare system. The best of both worlds. I am happy to | :57:29. | :57:36. | |
give way. Thank you. He and I are good friends but we disagree on this | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
matter. Will the Foreign Secretary confirmed that under this much | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
wanted reform deal which adds up to a hill of beans that the premise has | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
negotiated, if the United Kingdom where to introduce measures, | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
financial measures that we believe to be in the city -- interest of the | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
City of London and those measures were deemed by the EU zone that we | :58:01. | :58:07. | |
would be obliged to change our measures we would have to go to the | :58:08. | :58:10. | |
European Court of Justice who would arbitrate and we know that the | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
European Court of Justice always finds in the favour of the Aquila | :58:14. | :58:23. | |
commune attack. We do not know that they always find in favour of the | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
community. We have done well when we have been challenged in the European | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
Court of Justice. For example, when the European Central Bank | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
disgracefully tried to prevent Euro denominated financial instruments | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
being cleared in the City of London. We went to the European Court of | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
Justice and we won the case with a clear declaration that what the ECB | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
was proposing to do was illegal. I do not access to the premise of my | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
honourable friend's question. I give way. Is it not the case that the | :58:55. | :59:05. | |
very essence of the Prime Minister's deal in Brussels, to which two | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
little attention has been paid, it provides a very firm guarantee that | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
the United Kingdom's position outside of the Eurozone would not be | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
used to jeopardise its position within the single market and that is | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
a very important safeguard and one in the context of the European Court | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
of Justice, and any arbitration it has to carried out, it has to be | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
carried -- taken into account and it has binding force? My honourable | :59:35. | :59:37. | |
friend is correct. Those on the other side of the argument have | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
tried to argue that this agreement did not have binding force in | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
international law, only eventually to have to concede that it did. My | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
honourable friend is right, the deal that the Prime Minister negotiated | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
is substantive and if there is a vote to being in the European Union | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
on June the 23rd, we will move ahead with the implementation of those | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
measures that will give Britain not only the advantages we already have, | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
the membership of the 500 million consumer strong marketplace but the | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
additional benefits that that deal brings. I can tell the House from my | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
own experience, meeting with my colleagues from across the European | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
Union, whatever people in this House or country think, our colleagues in | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
Europe can not believe the deal that we have negotiated. Cannot believe | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
how we have been able to negotiate the best of both worlds being in the | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
European Union and also being able to opt out of all of the measures we | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
do not find suit our particular needs. Thank you for giving way. | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
Talking about the benefits for exporters, that also includes the | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
steel industry. I have the steel industry in my constituency and | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
across South Wales. Thousands of steelworkers will march through | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
Parliament to raise their concerns tomorrow about what the Government | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
will do for the industry. The very worst thing we can do for the steel | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
industry is to pull out and was the possibility of exporting tariff free | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
to the rest of Europe. It goes further than that. In the steel | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
industry, worldwide, we are facing a crisis. We cannot wish it away. We | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
cannot create more demand or make it disappear the excess capacity. We | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
are always better and more effective in addressing these problems if we | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
do so collectively and working across the European Union is the | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
best week in which to tackle what is a very, very difficult problem. It | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
is also the case, Madam Deputy Speaker, that Britain in particular | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
will be further disproportionate, some of my colleagues would see | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
under benefits as the EU develops the single market in services in | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
digital, energy and capital. All of these single market which are | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
relatively immature in the European Union, all of these are areas in | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
which the UK is the leading economy in Europe. The commitments that we | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
have obtained to moving forward rapidly with the further development | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
of the single markets will disproportionately benefit this | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
country and disproportionately create jobs and growth in the UK | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
after we have made our decision on June the 23rd. We can only reap | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
these benefits, Madam Deputy Speaker, with the renewed democratic | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
mandate from the British people. For four decades they have been denied | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
that. Frankly, for the election of a Conservative Government, they would | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
not be getting the same now. I welcome the debate. I welcome the | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
focus it has brought, forcing all of us to think hard about the issues | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
and the consequences now there is a real decision to be made. I hope | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
that in this House we can all agree two things, that on June the 24th | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
the British people must have your say and that the politicians must | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
respect the decision, whatever it is. We cannot separate our security | :03:14. | :03:22. | |
and prosperity from the value system on which they are grounded. | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
Countless examples around the world have demonstrated through history | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
where political competition, rule of law, respect for human rights, | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
freedom of speech and tolerance of difference are lacking. Social, | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
economic and political stability will be absent at worst. We are | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
societies respond for the greater rule of law, respect individual | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
rights and freedoms, innovation and entrepreneurial -- being an | :03:54. | :04:01. | |
entrepreneur flourishes. In the 21st century, we cannot expect be able to | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
simply impose a one size fits all system across the world. Those days | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
are well and truly over. As our own example has shown, ideas of freedom, | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
democracy and the rule of law need time to take a brick. And in the | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
form they take will depend on where a nation is on its development | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
pathway and in its culture and traditions. -- need time to take | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
root. We can support countries as they move towards respect for these | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
essential values. It is the direction of travel that matters. My | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
view is clear, we're a nation's political, social, economic and | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
judicial development is taking it in the right direction, towards better | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
Government, stronger rule of law and respect for human rights, we should | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
work with it and supporters. With it is taking it away from those goals, | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
we will call it out as we have done recently in South Sudan and in | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
Burundi. Most importantly, we are countries fall short, we are | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
committed to a pragmatic response that seeks to make a difference | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
rather than disengagement, posturing and empty rhetoric. We have | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
doubled... We have doubled the FCO funding for human rights projects to | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
?10 million, putting our money where our mouth is. More importantly, by | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
mainstreaming our human rights work, we have hard-wired into everything | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
we do. We have made it an integral part of the two-day diplomacy. Not a | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
boat on optional extra. I firmly believe that our approach is | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
yielding practical dividends. Thank you for giving way. Would he take | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
this opportunity to disavow the comment made by his Secretary at the | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
Foreign Office, Sir Simon Madonna, who said that human rights are not a | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
priority for the UK Government? He has explained what he was trying to | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
convey was that we are mainstreaming. They do not have a | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
separate category any more. We have mainstreamed human rights into our | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
consular, political and our mainstream diplomatic work. By doing | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
so, we embedded in a way that is delivering results through all of | :06:23. | :06:32. | |
our agenda. Does he agree with me that it is a bit rich for British | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
diplomats and politicians to travel the globe lecturing others that | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
human rights when we are about to repeal our own Human Rights Act and | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
some members of the Government wish to withdraw from the European | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
Convention on human rights question mark I wouldn't. Throughout the | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
world. Britain is recognised as an important champion of human rights | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
and a country in which many of the rights that we across the world take | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
for granted today originated. I hope we can have a constructive debate | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
about these issues. Before I conclude, I want to take head-on the | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
notion that the Government is putting economic and trade interests | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
before human rights. Yes, we are serious about increasing our | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
global... To secure more jobs for the British people but that does | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
not, the expense of our values. The deeper and broader relationships | :07:33. | :07:41. | |
with other countries, the deeper they become, the greater our | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
influence and easier it is to have Frank conversations we have on | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
issues that we disagree. Building relationships gives influence and | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
leveraged. It is not always visible and progress takes place behind the | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
scenes. We should be ruthlessly focused on what works and on the | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
occasions where Private influence feels, we can and do speak out | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
publicly. Ultimately, I feel the best way we can achieve the positive | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
changes we want to see on human rights is to engage constructively | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
as part of a comprehensive relationship. Is the Foreign | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
Secretary seriously telling us how is that right now, her relationship | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
with Saudi Arabia is the case of not putting human rights secondary to | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
economic interest? Mr Speaker, I hope that the right honourable | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
gentleman is around in five years' time, ten years' time, 15 years' | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
time so we can look back from that vantage point on what is happening | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
now. Something very significant is happening in Saudi Arabia. The | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
project that the plan, vision 2030, that has been published by the | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
Deputy Crown Prince sets out the trajectory of Fort Saudi Arabia's | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
development which is inevitably going to change that country. It is | :09:04. | :09:11. | |
far more than an economic plan. If you want to influence the direction | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
of Saudi Arabia's development, I would strongly advise that we engage | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
with that project and that we help to shape it rather than turning our | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
backs on that country as many have suggested. | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
We now have decades and decades of experience that early intervention | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
to prevent human rights abuses and mass atrocities works. Does he feel | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
that his department and indeed the whole of Government would benefit | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
from a mass atrocity prevention lens being focussed on all policy, so | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
that we intervene early and fast to prevent escalation? What the | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
honourable lady says is persuasive, but I'm just trying to think how we | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
would operationalise that in a way that's different from what we're | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
already doing. That's what we thought we were doing in Syria. | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
Unfortunately, we haven't succeeded in preventing the atrocities that | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
are going on in Syria. But let me consider what the honourable lady | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
has said and perhaps I can write to her on that issue. Madam Deputy | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
Speaker, under this Government the UK is making a decisive contribution | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
to the global agenda. We are leading reform in the European Union and if | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
the British people give their consent, we will continue to drive | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
that reform in the future. We're standing up to Russian aggression, | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
defending the rules based international system that Russia | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
seeks to undermine and providing military re-assurance to our eastern | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
allies who feel so threatened by Russia's actions. We're supporting | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
human rights around the world, making it a core part of every | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
diplomat's work, strengthening the values based rule of law system upon | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
which our prosperity, our security and our freedoms depend. In an ever | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
more complex and dangerous world, our diplomats, our military, our | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
intelligence and Security Services, our police, our border force and | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
many others work tirelessly day in, day out to keep us safe. Their | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
achievements often go unsung. The risks they take often go unnoticed. | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
So I want to end by thanking them on behalf of the whole House and the | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
British people for the work they do and the remarkable results they | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
deliver. THE SPEAKER: Hilary Benn. Thank you | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
very much indeed Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I begin where the | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
Foreign Secretary ended and join him in expressing the thanks of this | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
side of the House to our diplomats for the extraordinary service they | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
give our country and for the work that they do around the globe. We | :11:53. | :12:00. | |
are all very proud of them indeed. I think probably it's true to say | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
every single member in this chamber today, this gracious speech debate, | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
in one respect, has a significance unmatched by any of its | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
predecessors, that is because it takes place on the eve of the | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
referendum decision that our nation will take on the 23 June, a decision | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
yes, about our membership of the European Union, but a decision about | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
something much, much more fundamental even than that. We will | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
be deciding what kind of country we are and wish to be in a world that | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
is changing. The Foreign Secretary has set that out clearly in his | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
speech. And will continue to change as this generation gives way to the | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
next. Ours is a remarkable country. We are less than 1% of the world's | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
population and yet its fifth strongest economy. Our long wadge is | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
spoken by one in five people across the globe, granted with varying | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
degrees of fluency. We are among the world's leaders in science, the | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
arts, literature and Nobel Prizes and for a small island nation, off | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
the coast of Europe, we have great influence around the globe. Every | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
one of these is a reason why the decision we make will be watched | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
closely by friends and others alike, not least because our future as a | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
nation is now more intertwined with the lives and fats of others than it | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
has -- fates of others than ever before. An event can be seen almost | :13:39. | :13:48. | |
instantaneously on a mobile phone. Global flows of goods and services, | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
information, finance, ideas, people are expanding and this world offers | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
us great opportunity but it presents us with challenges too. It demands | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
that we look beyond these shores if we are to ensure that Britain | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
continues to be safe and successful. Because the national interest in | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
this era is best served by an international approach playing a | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
full part in global institutions, not walking away from them, | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
defending human rights and our values, both at home and abroad. And | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
I think it is fair to say that there is a struggle going on in Europe | :14:29. | :14:36. | |
now, as some politics moves to the extremes, for the soul of the | :14:37. | :14:45. | |
continent. In that context, can I congratulate the election victory | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
for the new president of Austria. But we see how close that result | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
was. Madam Deputy Speaker, in this referendum there has been much | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
debate about the facts. Give us the facts, the people ask. I will give | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
way, of course. I'm very grateful. Isn't one of the facts that might | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
emerge from the referendum is that if the European Union is to achieve | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
more than 55% support in Scotland, it will show that the European Union | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
is more popular amongst Scott than the British -- Scots than the | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
British in the United Kingdom? I look forward to the contribution of | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
voters in Scotland to ensure that we remain in the European Union. I | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
think it would be nice to see a more vigorous campaign from the SNP in | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
support of a Remain vote. But that is in the hands of the members who | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
are sitting over there. The first facts, Madam Deputy Speaker, in this | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
referendum is the fact of our membership and what it has brought - | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
jobs, growth and investment, rights for workers and consume tears are | :15:55. | :16:02. | |
guaranteed from -- consumers that are guaranteed, paid holiday, | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
improved maternity and paternity leave, fairer deal for agency and | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
temporary workers all protected by the EU. Environmental protection and | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
progress from cleaner air to cleeber -- cleaner beaches, to safeguarding | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
of precious habitats to tackling climate change Europe has worked | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
together to make a difference. We have reacted to the largest single | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
market in the world to which we sell 44% of our exports and through our | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
membership to 53 other trade deals with other countries' markets. That | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
shows how Europe's collective negotiating strength achiefs | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
stronger trade -- achiefs stronger trade with the rest of the world | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
that we could achieve alone. Domestic security, whether the | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
threat from terrorism or organised crime, we are made safer by working | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
with our allies, sharing information and bringing criminals to justice | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
through the European arrest warrant. National security - dealing with | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
climate change, where Europe has shown Great Leadership. The Iran | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
nuclear deal, led by the European Union, standing up to Russian | :17:13. | :17:14. | |
aggression in the Ukraine. Now the sanctions that the Foreign Secretary | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
referred to are clearly biting on the Russian economy. I'm sure the | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
whole House will support him in what he said earlier about the renewal of | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
those sanctions in July, until such time as the Minsk agreement is fully | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
observed by Russia. We should in this debate, as well as thanking our | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
diplomats, thank the police, the Security Services and our armed | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
forces for their commitment and sacrifice in order to keep us safe. | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
It is important that in the legislation promised in the speech, | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
we update the law on investigatory powers tone able them to go on doing | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
so effectively. On this side we will hold the Government to account to | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
ensure that will strong safeguards, the right balance is struck between | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
security and privacy. Now all this shows that the EU gives us influence | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
in the world and a louder voice. It is the very opposite of the picture | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
painted by the Leave campaign of poor old Britain, put upon, unable | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
to cope, for those who remember the ads, the serve-stone weakling who is | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
having sand kicked in its face by the other member states. What | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
nonsense. What lack of faith in our abilities as a nation. The truth is, | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
we are a strong and influential member state - certainly I will - | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
that is how other EU member states see us. It is time the Leave | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
campaign stop trying to sell us short. I will give way. I thought | :18:55. | :19:03. | |
the first part of the right honourable gentleman's speech is an | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
excellent case. Now he's putting into territory where he's putting up | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
aunt Sallies. Two internationalisms competing here, one with a global | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
view of the world and one with internationalism within the European | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
Union. Both perfectly respectable and both have internationalism | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
sitting under them. I hope he can stay on making a positive case for | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
his side of the argument rather than putting up aunt Sallies to attack, | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
which aren't true. I hope the honourable gentleman will | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
acknowledge that I am making a positive case, but I can see that | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
the charge I just levelled at the Leave campaign has wounded precisely | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
because that is what they argue. That somehow Britain cannot cope | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
with being in the European Union, that we can't manage the place we | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
have in that institution. I also say to the honourable gentleman, it is a | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
fallacy to suggest that somehow in this referendum we are faced with a | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
choice between the one and the other. We hear it in the debate | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
about trade. People say we should trade with other parts of the world. | :20:02. | :20:08. | |
Our trade with China has doubled since 2010. Have we been stopped | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
trading with China because we're part of the European Union? Of | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
course we haven't. We can do both. Britain's traditions suggest that | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
not only are we capable of doing it, but we will benefit from doing both. | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I can't help but observe | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
that actually aunt allies are being -- Sallies are being created here. | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
The leave camp aren't being suggested that we're being kicked | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
about, that's the view that the right honourable gentleman puts to | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
the Leave camp. We suggest that there's a brighter future outside | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
the EU. There's a fundamental difference in that. We're the fifth | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
largest economy in the world, of course we stand up for ourselves. We | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
have the world's most prominent language and so forth. It's the fact | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
that there's a brighter future outside, illustrated bit fact that | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
at the moment we are forbidden to negotiating trade deals with | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
countries unless they're routed through the EU. If we came out, we | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
could do that and that would lead to greater prosperity. I say to the | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
honourable gentleman, first of all, that damaging our economy and | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
people's job prospects is not my idea of a brighter future and | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
secondly, I say to him, that he will forgive me if I don't follow him | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
down the Canadian road, when we know it has taken Canada seven years thus | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
far to negotiate its own trade deal with the European Union. I give way | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
to the honourable gentleman. I am most grateful to the Shadow Foreign | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
Secretary for giving way. As a fellow Leeds MP and honourable | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
friend on the frontbench, we will all recognise how important a role | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
the university of Leeds plays in our city in terms of employment and | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
investment. The vote leave campaign are going round saying all the money | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
we contribute to the EU will go into the NHS. That's their policy. Is the | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
right honourable gentleman not concerned that means that there | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
simply won't be the investment in our higher education research which | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
comes from Europe and therefore, either they don't care or either | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
it's a lie? The honourable gentleman points to one of many | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
inconsistencies in the arguments that the Leave campaign is | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
advancing. It's noticeable, Madam Deputy Speaker, every single | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
university in the country has spoken out about the importance for them, | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
their research, the flow of ideas across Europe, never mind the world, | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
and the benefits and the money they gain because we have world-class | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
universities. We should listen to what they and every single survey of | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
industry opinion that has been done and all of the other warnings and | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
assessments undertaken and it's not good enough for the Leave campaign | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
every time a view is expressed counter to their argument, they wave | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
their hands and say, "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? I | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
will give way. Then I will make more progress I thank him for giving way. | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
Does he agree with me that when the Brexiters campaign on the issue of | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
trade, they should be aware of the fact that India invests more in the | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
UK than all other EU kin triput together currently and the UK | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
invests more in India than any other G20 country? The honourable | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
gentleman is indeed right. He gives me the opportunity to add to that | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
point. We are the most successful country in the European Union. More | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
successful than Germany, more than France in attracting foreign direct | :23:37. | :23:38. | |
investment. There's a number of reasons for that, some of which I | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
referred to at the beginning of my speech that the chair of the Select | :23:42. | :23:43. | |
Committee welcomed, but there's no doubt that one of those reasons is | :23:44. | :23:51. | |
because we are part of a single market of 500 million people. I will | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
give way to my honourable friend. He mentioned the Free Trade Agreement. | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
Isn't it a fact that since the European Union signed the Free Trade | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
Agreement with South Korea, the UK trade with Korea has massively | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
increased and of course, we also have massive Korean investment in | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
this country? That is indeed the case. It shows that we can have the | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
best of both worlds because we gaining from the trade deals that | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
the European Union has negotiated, at the same time as increasing our | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
trade with other countries with whom Europe does not currently have a | :24:30. | :24:30. | |
trade deal. Very grate grateful to my honourable | :24:31. | :24:38. | |
friend for giving way. Is he significant of the significant | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
investment in the north-east of England in the auto trade, at Elring | :24:42. | :24:49. | |
Clinger, Middlesbrough, all part of the supply chain. If we have to wait | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
seven years for a deal to be reached, what does he think are the | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
prospects for the automotive industry to invest in my region. He | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
makes a powerful point and the north-east along with Wales | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
understands almost better than any part of the country how important | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
membership of the European Union is to the economic prospects of the | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
communities and the families that depend on the jobs that come from | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
that investment, not the least because the north-east exports are | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
higher proportion of what it produces to Europe than to other | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
parts of the world. Oh, heavens. I'm going to give way to the two other | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
honourable members who caught my eye, then I am, if the House will | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
forgive me, make a bit more progress. Trade in the economy is | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
very important. He's right to say that but actually, isn't there | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
something more important? Didn't his late great father say that when he | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
looked at the European Union, what he saw was clearly not democratic. | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
Isn't our democracy more fundamental than all of the points he's making | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
today? And shouldn't the sovereign right to govern this country rest in | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
this House and by the British people? Well, I would say to the | :26:01. | :26:09. | |
honourable gentleman that it does. Now, my father and I were in | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
agreement 41 years ago because we both campaigned to leave the common | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
market, but the British people in their wisdom voted to stay. Now, I | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
changed my mind, and my late and dear father didn't. But he taught me | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
many things. One was to stand up for what you believe in and to say what | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
you think, and that's what I'm doing from this dispatch box today, and | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
secondly, and secondly, every single change subsequently relating to our | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
membership of the European Union has been agreed by this House, our | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
democracy, our democracy, and the referendum will give the British | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
people the chance to take this really important decision. I am | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
making my argument as to why on this side of the House we are | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
passionately in support of remaining in the European Union. I give way to | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
the honourable member. He's very generous, and he is absolutely right | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
to make two points today, Madam Deputy Speaker that no-one in my | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
view should be in any doubt about - firstly, trade. It is absolutely | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
critical, and all the countries with which I as a trade envoy deal and | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
all other trade envoys deal are in no doubt we'll do much better with | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
them and as a country by being within the European Union than | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
without. I am also in no doubt that the 53 agreement was the European | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
Union has would take a very, very long time if it could be done at all | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
to replicate, and lastly, Madam Deputy Speaker, on inward | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
investment, I am also in no doubt that there is a wave of foreign | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
investment - direct investment coming here which has been Held up | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
at the moment as a result of uncertainty. I agree with all the | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
points the honourable gentleman has made, particularly the last one | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
because we all know what business hates in some senses more than | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
anything else is uncertainty. At the moment there is great uncertainty | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
about our future in the European Union. We need to end that as | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
quickly as possible, and we need to end it in the right way. Madam | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
Deputy Speaker, greater than all of the benefits which I have tried to | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
describe thus far is for me the most significant contribution that the | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
European idea has made to our lives and that is quite simply 70 years of | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
peace on a continent that had been at war for a century. Anyone - and | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
many members have - who visited those graveyards in France and | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
Belgium understands the significance of that achievement. You only have | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
to walk along the rows of the graves in which the flower of two | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
generations of young Europeans rest, having given their youth and their | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
lives to understand the force of that achievement, and it did not | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
come about by accident. It was the sheer determination and vision of | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
Europe's founders to end this history of slaughter and build | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
something better out of the ashes of a still smouldering Europe that made | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
it happen, and the Shuman Declaration said it all, if the | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
honourable gentleman will bear with me - it resolve toad make a future | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
war not merely unthinkable, but materially impossible, and what they | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
achieved - which was most eloquently described, he's not here today by | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
the honourable member from Sussex in that remarkable speech back in | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
February is peace. It was even peace that has the seal of approval for | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
the honourable member from Uxbridge and South ruse lip who wrote in his | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
book that Europe's securing of the peace had been a spectacular | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
success. What a pity he has learned nothing from his own former wisdom. | :29:41. | :29:49. | |
Now, I will give way. Does the right honourable gentleman really believe | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
that the people who lie in those graves fought and died for a united | :29:53. | :29:59. | |
Europe or for the rights of their own countries and the occupied | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
countries to govern themselves, and does he really believe that there | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
was any risk of war between the democracies that were created at the | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
end of the Second World War in the decade before the European Union or | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
the European economic community came into existence? Like many members of | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
this House, I lost an uncle in the Second World War. He was an RAF | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
pilot, and he was killed three weeks after D day. He fault along with | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
everybody else against the ideology of Naziism and what it did, which is | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
why the rise of the far right in Europe should give us all cause for | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
concern, and indeed remind us that the dangers of the past that in the | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
post-war period with all its growth and stability people would have | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
thought, that's done and dusted - it's not done and dusted. It is | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
still with us, and the values that we are fighting to uphold are the | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
values of cooperation between free democracies that have come together | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
of their own volition to cooperate in the interests of maintaining that | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
peace and building something better for the future, and that is the | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
difference between those who argue for Remain and those who think that | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
we should Leave. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker - all right. Of course I | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
will give way. My honourable friend. Thank you to my honourable friend | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
for giving way. He's making a powerful point and like him, my | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
father and grandfather fought this those wars. We haven't had to endure | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
those. Would he also agree we have moved on from that situation where | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
we had dictatorships in Spain, for chew gal, Greece. We had fascism, | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
the horrors of the Balkans, the situation in Cypress and Europe has | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
actually taken us forward from many of those conflicts and instabilities | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
we have seen on our coninent? My honourable friend is absolutely | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
right, and we should learn from history, and we should recall that | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
one of the things that Europe has done has been to act as a magnet to | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
countries by offering stability, the rule of law, the values, for all of | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
the irritations and the occasional problems and the difficulties that | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
28 member states trying to reach agreement on can bring from time to | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
time, that has been such a powerful force for good in our continent, and | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
we cast it aside at our peril, and I believe we would do so to our | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
regret. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, those are the facts of our | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
membership. We know what membership gives us. We know what it involves. | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
Now, what is the other fact? Very simply this - the answer to the | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
honest question, what would happen if we left the European Union? Is - | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
now, we have heard a number of answers from the Leave campaign | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
during the debate so far. It will all be fine. "We'll get a better | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
deal outside." We hear a lot of that recently I did a debate and I heard | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
a lot of, "Nothing has to change. There is no need for that to | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
change." That is a really odd one as an argument because it begs the | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
question if nothing need to change, why are you campaigning so hard for | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
to us leave in the first place? The honest answer to the question of | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
what'll happen if we leave is simply this: We don't know. And there we | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
have it two, facts. What we know - remaining in the European Union and | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
what we don't know - leaving the European Union. Now, Madam Deputy | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
Speaker, I don't believe it is a coincidence that the Foreign | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
Secretary and his predecessor, both whom I think it would be fair to | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
describe previously as having been regarded as Euro sceptics, having | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
both now served in the FCO are campaigning for Britain to remain in | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
the European Union because they have seen first hand precisely How being | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
a member gives us influence in the world and we should therefore on | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
this occasion give thanks for the fact that this particular Government | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
has not one but two departments of education in Whitehall. The first is | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
called the department for education, and the second is called the Foreign | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
and Commonwealth Office and it is a shame that the Prime Minister has | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
not been able to allow more Conservative Euro-sceptics to serve | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
in the Fon and Commonwealth Office and go through their excellent | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
retraining and conversion programme. Now, turning to Syria, the House - | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
well, I - there we are. It's proof of my argument, proof of my | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
argument. Turning to Syria, the House will welcome the renewed | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
commitment in the gracious speech to support international efforts to | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
bring fees this brutalised and war-weary country and its | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
lock-suffering people. The civil war has raged for five years. Half the | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
population have fled their homes. According to the Observer for Human | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
Right overs 360,000 people have lost their lives, mostly at the hands of | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
President Assad, and Russian air strikes have killed 1700 civilians | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
in the past six months alone, and the determination of some of those | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
fleeing this destruction to try and make to it Europe despite the per | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
Loys and dangerous journey shows their utter desperation, and I say | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
that while the Government's offering of humanitarian aid has been | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
exemplary, and it has, its offering of a home to those fleeing has not. | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
Time and again, it has fallen short and has had to be shamed and forced | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
into action. And the immediate priority, as the Foreign Secretary | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
said, is to enable the next round of peace talks to take place and for | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
that to happen, the ceasefire has to be observed. It is unacceptable for | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
the Assad regime to be continuing to attack the opposition forces when | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
they are expected to sit opposite his representatives at the table to | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
try to negotiate a peaceful solution. We also need humanitarian | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
access. I was struck when Stefan Denastura said five days ago how | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
unacceptable it is that well-fed, grown-up soldiers have blocked the | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
delivery of baby food to the town of Duresur. If access is not | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
significantly and speedily improved, then we should use air drops to | :36:19. | :36:25. | |
reach civilians and I welcome what the Foreign Secretary said on that | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
matter a little earlier. Daesh have taken brutal, cruel advantage of the | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
civil war, and their ideology is spreading across North Africa and | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
other parts of the world. And the whole House has agreed we have to | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
stand up to their barbarity, and it is good to see reported that in | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
recent months their grip, particularly in Iraq, has been | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
weakened as a result of the Iraqi efforts, the efforts of the | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
Peshmerga and the international military coalition, but we must also | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
hold them to account for what they have done. Now, the UK - one of the | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
things we can be very proud of has been our consistent support for the | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
International Criminal Court as a means of dealing with crimes against | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
humanity and war crimes, and there is no doubt at all that Daesh are | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
killing people in Syria and Iraq because of their ethnicity, because | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
of their race and because of their religion, and what they are doing | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
has all the hallmarks of genocide as well as crimes against humanity and | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
war crimes. Look what they have done to the Isidis when members - and I | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
am one - have sat and listened to a young woman there describe how Daesh | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
came to her village, killed all the men, murdered her mother, took her | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
into sexual slavery is to be forced to look into the darkness of human | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
depravity. And therefore, when the House voted on the 20th of April for | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
the Government immediately to refer these crimes to the International | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
Criminal Court through the UN Security Council, and Ministers | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
abstained in this vote, I hope that they will now demonstrate to the | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
House that they are prepared to take this forward because it is very | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
important that the evidence is preserved, so that in the end those | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
who have been responsible are held to account. Now, as we've heard | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
earlier today, many across the House have expressed deep concern about | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
the alleged war crimes committed in Yemen and the hidden humanitarian | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
disaster there. According to Oxfam, 80% of the population in Yemen are | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
urgently in need of humanitarian assistance, and it is an unreported | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
humanitarian disaster because of the risks and the dangers of journalists | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
going in there. Now, we on this side of the House have repeatedly called | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
for an independent inquiry into alleged violations of international | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
humanitarian law and for the Government immediately to suspend | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
all arms sales to Saudi Arabia until an inquiry has taken place. There is | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
mounting evidence of serious breaches of international | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
humanitarian law, and a clear risk that British-made weapons are being | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
used, but I have to say the Government is burying its head in | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
the sand. The Foreign Secretary will be well aware of the number of UN | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
officials who have spoken out on this matter include degree | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
Secretary-General, the under Secretary-General for humanitarian | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
affairs, the humanitarian koord Nator for Yemen, the UN special | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
advisor, the UN Commissioner on human rights, the UN special rapper | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
to on the right to food and the UN special advisor on the | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
responsibility to protect. I do not need to protect for the words of the | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
United Nations' panel of experts on the Yemen final report because we | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
heard that quoted a little earlier in this debate about what they have | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
found. UK and EU law couldn't be clearer, the Government shouldn't | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
grant arms licenses to a country if there is a clear risk that the items | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
might be used in the commission of serious violations of international | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
humanitarian law, and I don't think the Government is takingness | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
responsibilities seriously enough because frankly the answers we had | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
today in response to the urgent question do not really bear | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
scrutiny. I do welcome the Government's commitment in the | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
legislative programme to ratify - I will give way. | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
He talked about the urgents question, that related to equipment | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
that hasn't been in manufacture for two-and-a-half decades. There could | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
be no question of any supply of that type of equipment. So I don't | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
understand why he makes the point he did. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think | :40:36. | :40:44. | |
the Government's response - I welcome that further inquiries are | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
going to be made about what amnesty international has found but I'm | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
making a broader point about repeated allegations of the breach | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
of international humanitarian law and the Government's response seems | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
to be well, we're asking the Saudis to look at this and we'll see what | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
they say. There is now time and need for an independent investigation of | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
what has been going on. I will give way. If it were to be found that | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
Saudi Arabia had use aid cluster bomb, even one made some time ago, | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
manufactured in the UK, wouldn't that in itself, the use of the | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
cluster bomb be a reason for suspending arms sales to Saudi | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
Arabia? Well, it would, maybe it would depend on what aircraft or | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
means was used to deliver it, because of course we have sold a | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
very large amount of military equipment to Saudi Arabia, but given | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
the mounting evidence about the use of cluster munitions, despite the | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
denials that were reported once again to the House and the Foreign | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
Secretary I think at one point said, "I believe we've got to the point | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
where we're going to have a commitment that they're not being | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
used." I would like not only to have that commitment from the Saudi | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
authorities but I would like to see an absence of evidence on the | :42:02. | :42:03. | |
ground, because that is what is being discovered by those who are | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
looking at what is occurring in the middle of this terrible conflict. | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
But I was going on to say that I do welcome the Government's commitment | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
in the legislative programme to ratify The Hague convention on the | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
protection of cultural property in the event of armed conflict. This is | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
something that we have been calling for. It's an important step forward. | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
I hope it will serve to strengthen the commitment of the UK to the | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
protection of cultural air Taj in conflict -- heritage in conflict | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
zones, including in Yemen and Iraq, given the concerns that UNESCO have | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
expressed. As a member of the UN Security Council we have a special | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
responsibility to stand up for international law and fundamental | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
rights. And indeed, our security is best protected when we do so. That | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
is why any proposal to repeal the Human Rights Act would, I believe, | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
damage our reputation in the world and give comfort to those who seek | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
to undermine human rights in their country. It is therefore troubling, | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
I heard the Foreign Secretary's reply a moment ago about what the | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
Permanent Secretary said, but it is troubling when the Permanent | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
Secretary goes to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and says, | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
and I quote, that human rights are "not one of the top priorities in | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
the department". I would say to the Foreign Secretary, well, what he was | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
seeking to express was we are mainstreaming it. It seems to me the | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
message is not being terribly well communicated if that's what the | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
Permanent Secretary said. I want to ask the right honourable gentleman, | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
does he not think that Britain had a reputation in the world for | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
protection of human rights before we had the Human Rights Act? Of course, | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
we had a reputation for that. I'm not saying that we didn't. But | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
having taken the step, one, of helping to found the European | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
convention at the end of the Second World War, two, to have put the | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
Human Rights Act on the statute book so people in this country can access | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
those rights before making the long journey to the European Court of | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
Human Rights, to argue that we should weaken our position is, I | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
think, a profound mistake. Indeed there are those who express concerns | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
about our membership of the European convention itself. I think it is | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
depressing there are those who are arguing that we should resign from | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
the commitments that we freely entered into as a way of offering | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
leadership to the world in the way that some on those benches opposite | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
are seeking to do and I pay tribute, seeing the former Attorney-General | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
is nodding approvingly, for those standing up against them. The right | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
honourable member makes an excellent point. Britain's history of human | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
rights goes hundreds of years into the past, indeed way bag to Magna | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
Carta. What we're really arguing with Human Rights Act, is not human | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
rights in England but the stretch of the judiciary into areas that are | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
correctly the role of Parliament. What he's arguing on that side is | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
that human rights should be used to circumvent Parliament by using law | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
to intervene in other areas. If one takes the most famous case of all, | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
which is voting rights for prisoners, a subject dear to the | :45:26. | :45:27. | |
Home Secretary's heart, how many years ago was that judgment handed | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
down? Well not that they should have voting rights, just for the | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
avoidance of doubt, how many years ago was that hand down? Do prisoners | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
in Britain have voting rights? No, they don't. The way in which we | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
constructed the Human Rights Act allows Parliament, in the end, to | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
take that decision. Me thinks those who argue that we should take these | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
steps protest too much. Because we should be proud of our past | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
reputation, our history and the foundations on which we have built | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
our continuing commitment to human rights, which include the European | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
convention and the Human Rights Act that the last Labour Government put | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
on the statute book. Madam Deputy Speaker, as the United Kingdom, we | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
have always been at our best when we are an outward-looking and confident | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
nation. We helped to build the institution that's have given the | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
world the best chance to make progress, the United Nationses, Nato | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
and the European Union as late comers. Say to the House, when we | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
look at the challenges that our children and grandchildren are going | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
to face in their lives, fighting climate change, reducing poverty, | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
dealing with conflict, people fighting over religion, we see that | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
currently, water, land, energy, the rise of the politics of the right, | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
or dealing with the consequences of large numbers of people moving | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
around the globe, mark my words, that will be the story of this | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
Severnery - -- century - the question is this: What will give us | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
the best chance of managing those challenges and dealing with the | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
changes that they will see in their lives, just as we have seen in ours? | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, when I was born, the world's population was 2. | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
7 billion. By the time my grandchildren reach my age, it will | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
be around 10 billion. The British Empire has gone and it's been | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
replaced by the Commonwealth, the Berlin Wall has given way to the | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
democracies of Europe. We've seen the rise of terrorism. New global | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
powers, astonishing economic development of China what old divide | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
between domestic and the foreign is increasingly eroding and becoming | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
blurred, because globalisation is transforming our world. As a nation | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
in 30 days' time, we will be confronted with a choice about how | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
we are going to deal with that transformation. For me it is a | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
choice between optimism and pessimism, a choice between outward | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
facing patriotism and an inward-looking nationalism. The | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
former built on playing a proud and leading role through cooperation in | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
the very institution that's we have helped to fashion and the latter | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
that seeks to lure us to turn our back on them. Now these are the two | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
competing visions of Britain's future. I hope that on the 23 June, | :48:12. | :48:18. | |
the British people will vote for cooperation, because it represents | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
the best hope we have for that future and for the lives of those | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
who will come after us. THE SPEAKER: Kenneth Clarke. I | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
propose to resist the temptation to give the House my arguments in | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
favour of Britain remaining in the European Union. Those members of | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
Parliament who find it irresistible to hear me on the subject made their | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
way to the debate in the Speaker's House last night, where I debated | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
amongst others against my old colleague Lord Tebbitt and actually | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
on this occasion, I agree so completely by what's been said by | :48:56. | :48:57. | |
both the Foreign Secretary and the Shadow Foreign Secretary, I thought | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
I might desist, particularly as over the next 30 days I shall be making | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
many more speeches on this subject. But this afternoon, I look forward | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
with a certain amount of relief after this interminable campaign to | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
the fact that this House and the Government is going to return to the | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
government of the country on domestic issues as well, and have an | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
agenda to which we can return which will spare us from the fear of | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
millions of criminal Turks coming to this country and our sovereignty | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
being sacrificed to faceless men in Brussels and all the rest of it, | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
there are a lot of very serious issues facing this country at home. | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
They're described today as how to keep people safe at home and abroad | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
and how to protect our mum an rights. I turn to that. -- human | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
rights. I turn to that. With great respect, I'm trying to be short. As | :49:53. | :50:01. | |
I become more long serving, I find I get ever more garrulous. I know | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
there are huge number of members who want to speak in this debate. If I | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
may be allowed, I'll resist the temptation to give way much though I | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
normally enjoy it. It seemed to me, when I looked at the Queen's Speech | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
and listened to the Queen's Speech and heard the analysis afterwards, | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
that the Prime Minister was actually rather looking to his legacy. He's | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
already become one of the longest serving Prime Ministers since the | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
war much he's announced that he's not going to be Prime Minister into | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
the next Parliament. So this Queen's Speech has more of a theme than most | :50:31. | :50:37. | |
Queen's speeches have. He described it, the slogan that we're all to use | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
now is that it was a progressive, one-nation theme. I don't like | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
slogans, but I can hardly object to that. I've been trying to describe | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
my own political views for years like that. It also was about the | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
disadvantage of society and improving the life chances of those | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
who have disadvantages and actually in trying to address the still weak | :51:01. | :51:07. | |
state of merit onningracy -- meritocracy today. I benefitted from | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
the brief window of meritocracy which this kurn trienjoyed -- | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
country enjoyed quite a long time ago because of the butler act of | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
1944, which I hasten to add I wouldn't go back to that old system. | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
But we all know that one of the worrying things in our society is a | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
growing awareness of widening inequality, both of incomes, thanks | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
to the absurd levels to which some corporate salaries have been allowed | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
it rise over the last ten years, and also, of opportunity from those who | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
are born in the less advantaged parts of the country. The main thing | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
that I was mainly impressed by in looking at the contents of the | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
Queen's Speech is how we're seized of that. This growing inequality is | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
sensed by more and more people. It is very real for many of our younger | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
generation. It's a subject, ien equality of opportunity -- | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
inequality of opportunity and of income which has always concerned | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
those of the left. But in my opinion, those of us who believe in | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
free market economics should be just as concerned by this threat to the | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
stability of our society as our socialist opposite numbers. I think | :52:24. | :52:30. | |
it behooves us to do something about it. I therefore hope that things | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
like the children and social work bill, and the proposals being made | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
to tackle the inadequacies what have we now do for children in care and | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
to improve the operation of the adoption system is just one, I'm not | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
going into the whole Queen's Speech, one of those mesures which I hope | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
will give positive effect to this agenda of actually recreating a | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
fairer society in which opportunities are available on a | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
much wider range than they are at the moment, to all sections of | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
society. Now also, the biggest, prominent Bill in the Queen's Speech | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
is prison reform. Obviously, I very much welcome that. I say obviously | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
because the Secretary of State for justice and the Prime Minister | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
himself, in a very noticeable speech, have reinforced an agenda | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
which my party first set out when we were in Opposition, before 2010, | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
which is an agenda which I propounded when I was Justice | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
Secretary for the first two-and-a-half years of the | :53:39. | :53:40. | |
Government and tried to give effect to. I do congratulation the | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
Secretary of State for justice, who I regret to say is not in his place | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
at the moment, because he appears to have achieved more success in | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
overcoming the hesitations in practice of some of the more serious | :53:56. | :54:02. | |
members of the Government than I actually did, so he has been able to | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
promise things that I wish I'd achieved. He has a more agenda that | :54:06. | :54:15. | |
I was able to deliver. We did a great deal to improve training for | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
work by outside employers in prisons and other things, but there are | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
other things that look as though, at last, they're going to be tackled. | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
The problem always is that we have a fear in this House of the reaction | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
to anything entitled "prison reform". | :54:33. | :54:44. | |
Both parties have been very much subject to fear of the right-wing | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
tabloids every time they have looked at this subject. It's not wet. It's | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
part of protecting people from harm in this society that everything | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
contributes to the reduction of crime. When people are sent to | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
prison, quite rightly, for criminal offences, it is an achievement if | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
most of them don't return to crime and become honest citizens when they | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
are released, and I think you can get public support for these changes | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
as long as you emphasise at the moment, 48% of our prisoners are | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
convicted again. They return to crime within 12 months of being | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
released. And that shows how little progress so far we've actually made | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
in dealing not with a hard-core of criminals, who just are going to be | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
in prison for long periods of their life if the police south-east | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
succeed in catching them, but those who suffer from drug abuse, mental | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
health problems, those who have never had a basic education, are not | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
numerate, not literate and those who could benefit from training, for | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
preparation for work and preparation to rehabilitate them and return them | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
as honest citizens. And I hope, therefore that reimplement this as | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
well as legislate it. I welcome the report on education which is | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
addressing the fact we have always tried to educate prisoners but once | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
delivered is very patchy and limited and I hope we'll implement all of | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
it. I welcome to interesting idea of the six reforms prisons, but I hope | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
that doesn't mean that the most adventurous reforms are going to be | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
confined to these six prisons, and I think we should just keep an eye on | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
that figure of 48% and judge our progress in a few years' time by | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
whether at last we're able to reduce it, but I will - no, I won't. What I | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
would say is I don't think we're going to deliver a lot on this | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
unless we tackle one other problem, which is the enormous number of | :57:00. | :57:07. | |
people we now incarcerate, largely in response to populist demands that | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
led to us increasing and toughening up sentencing for about the last two | :57:12. | :57:21. | |
decades. We now have - I think it's 88,000 prisoners - 86,000 prisoners, | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
which is about double where it was 20 years ago when I was Home | :57:26. | :57:34. | |
Secretary, and I signed up to quite substantial reductions in the | :57:35. | :57:36. | |
national interests in public spending in my department when I was | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
Justice Secretary. It was on the basis we were going to reduce that | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
number of prisons to something like the level that we actually ought to | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
have in our jails. I wasn't actually able to deliver that. After I left, | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
the numbers started drifting up again, and it has the effect, for | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
example that in education, which I've already mentioned, you don't | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
have the money, actually, to deliver these programmes, and - no, I'm not | :58:05. | :58:11. | |
going to give way, sorry. Between 2012-13, 2014-15, there has been an | :58:12. | :58:18. | |
85% fall in the number of prisoners taking A level standard | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
qualifications and a 42% drop in those going for open universities. | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
So when you get rid of the numbers, then you're able actually to finance | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
what you wish to do and, in my opinion, you cannot deliver proper | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
rehabilitation programmes in overcrowded slums. Now, I've - I go | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
on to all the other topics that I would like to support in the bill, I | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
will actually start excluding other members from the debate which I have | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
said, which I am anxious not to do, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I promise | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
you I will not. Can I briefly welcome the Criminal Finances Bill? | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
I think in the fight against crime in this country, and my right | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
honourable friend the Home Secretary is replying to that debate, I think, | :59:02. | :59:06. | |
we are very bad at dealing with white collar crime. There is growing | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
awareness of that if you wish to rob a bank you go to the LIBOR market. | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
You don't put a Balaklava on and pick up a shotgun. That's much less | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
profitable. At last we're starting to do something about it. I welcome | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
this bill and I hope I can be reassured it will tackle not just | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
tax evasion which is quite rightly high on the public agenda, but money | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
laundering. London is still the money-laundering capital of the | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
world. If you're an African despot or a serious international corrupt | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
criminal, London is the best place to put your money because you can | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
trust the bankers to look after it and not steal it from you. And I | :59:49. | :59:55. | |
welcome the fact that we're going to improve the reporting of suspicious | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
activities. I also hope we'll impose a duty on those at the head of these | :00:00. | :00:06. | |
institution actually to ensure that they take positive steps to stop | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
those working for them, encouraging it. I'll continue to follow progress | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
on the Investigative Powers Bill where we have to get the balance | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
right between firstly the powers that our agencies must have to deal | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
with the threat of terrorism and crime,on on the one hand, and the | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
privacy that we can retain in our society to defend the freedoms we | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
want. I particularly welcomed in the Queen's Speech there was no mention | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
whatever of repealing the Human Rights Act or any legislation on | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
human rights. I hope that means we are proceeding on this front with | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
very considerable caution. I looked at my right honourable friend's | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
speech when she was reported as having said things on the subject of | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
the convention. It actually - what she said was rather ambiguous. It | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
was not a change of Government policy. I hope I'm correctly | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
reassured that there isn't the slightest question of her giving up | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
the Convention on Human Rights or trying to weaken the jurisdiction in | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
Strasbourg. I wait to hear a good reason for getting rid of the Human | :01:16. | :01:23. | |
Rights Act. And stopping British judges being allowed to apply the | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
principles of the Convention. When we're taken to Strasbourg, which is | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
where they'll all go again if we get rid of the Human Rights Act, we'll | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
only lose 2% of the cases. I don't get frightfully worried about air | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
hostesses being allowed to wear crucifixes with their uniforms which | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
is the kind of thing that we actually lose. Someone has quite | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
rightly pointed out that the Council of Europe has systems so we've not | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
been forced to give prisoners voting rights, in fact, and otherwise, our | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
reputation for human rights will be damaged if we're seen to be | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
retreating from where we are. The court in Strasbourg and the | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
Convention are the best levers we have to make sure that Liberal | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
values are defended in Russia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Georgia, the | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
other countries who do abide by the judgments in Strasbourg, and they | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
get defeated many more times there than we do, so I trust a very | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
considerable thought is being given to this subject. I am not aware of | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
any harm being done at the moment. Of course, I believe in the | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
supremacy of Parliament. Even Parliament must actually pass | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
legislation consistent with the high standards of human rights we've | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
always had, and I see no harm whatever in British judges or judges | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
in Strasbourg being allowed occasionally to challenge the way in | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
which our legislation is interpreted by officials in the Home Office or | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
elsewhere, even occasionally by Ministers in a way that really ought | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
to be reconsidered, but subject to that and assuming we are all putting | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
human rights in our foreign policy, as the Foreign Secretary very | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
eloquently said and had my full approval when he said it, I do think | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
once the slight madness of this referendum is over - and I'm of the | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
generation who does not think that referendums are the best way of | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
determining the whole future of this country's foreign policy and the | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
basis of its trade and economic prosperity in tomorrow's world, but | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
when the debate is over, this isn't a programme of a Government that's | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
been driven off its agenda. It's actually a very solid, reforming | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
programme of a Government that has the best interests of the country in | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
the mind, should be able to achieve some very real social advances the | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
we implement it. Madam Deputy Speaker, of course, it's a great | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
pleasure to follow the right honourable member for Rushcliff. | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
However, I have to start by disagreeing with him. He claimed a | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
few moments ago that the Leave campaign were saying millions of | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
Turkish criminals were about to flood the country. That's not true. | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
The actual claim of the Leave campaign is only malare coming over | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
the next eight years, and not all of them are criminals. Indeed, I have | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
the quote here from Vote Leave - "Since the birthrate in Turkey is so | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
high, we can expect to see an additional million people added to | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
the UK population from Turkey alone within the next eight years." That | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
accompanying a statement from a Government Minister who had never | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
heard of the word "veto" when it comes to the accession of states but | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
I am grateful to the Times newspaper this morning for adding just a | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
little insight into this, under the caption saying, "Turkish delight - | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
one of the Leave's key warns is the threat to service posed by Turkey | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
joining the European Union, but that's what? Big name outers are all | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
listed as founder members of Conservative Friends of Turkey set | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
up to lobby in favour of Turkish membership of the European Union." | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
Now, it's now clear, Madam Deputy Speaker - such is the Machiavellian | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
tactics of the Leave campaign that that triumvirate clearly have been | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
campaigning for Turkish membership of the Union so they can use that as | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
a reason for the removal of Britain from the European Union. What an | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
extraordinary array of political talent and consistency we face. | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to make three points because we have been | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
well around the houses today between the Foreign Office questions, | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
between the emergency statement and now this debate. I want to restrict | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
myself an argument about brings and Scottish values with regards to | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
immigration. I want to talk a little about Libya because I'm not sure | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
that we're hearing the full story from the Government as to where we | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
are with military action on Libya. Lastly, want to talk about the | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
European Union Referendum and project fear, a matter of which I | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
have some experience and knowledge of from the past, but firstly, to | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
look at the question of immigration - and the nonsense from the Leave | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
campaign on immigration can be juxtaposed with the reality of where | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
we are in Scotland with many immigration cases, and what I want | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
to talk about is the plight of the Brain family. That's Greg Brain, | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
Katherine Brain and their son Lachlan, who is seven years old. | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
This is a family who came from Australia to Dingwall in the | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
Scottish Highlands as part of the Homecoming Programme. This was a | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
programme initiated by my predecessor, first Minister Lord | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
McConnell and carried forward by my administration. They came, and that | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
was heavily advertised in Australia to encourage those of Scottish | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
descent to return to Scotland to help repopulate and reinvigorate the | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
highlands and other areas of Scotland. Greg and Kathleen both | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
have Scottish roots. They first visited Scotland on their honeymoon | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
of 20035, returned again in 2011 to do further research on whether a | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
move to Scotland would be the right thing for them to up sticks from | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
Australia and inless? Accumulated capital in Scotland to make a new | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
life. Between 2005 and 2011 they applied for visas and Catt Lynn | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
secured a student visa after enrolling in a degree. Her husband | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
and son were listed as her dependents. She finished her degree | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
last year and the family's visa expired in December 2015. The Home | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
Office have rejected their case to stay. It's believed a further visa | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
application was rejected as they'd not succeeded in finding jobs that | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
completely fulfilled the visa requirements. This is despite the | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
fact that Greg Brain had been working and was working but had then | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
to give up his job as a result of the Home Office decision. They - | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
this family and can I just stress that their son Lachlan has known no | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
other home but Dingwall that scotch Gaelic is his first language? | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
They're fully integrated into the community. They have massive | :08:29. | :08:30. | |
community support. They have the support of just about every Scottish | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
MP in this House. They have overwhelming support from the newly | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
elected members of the Scottish Parliament as well as their own two | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
excellent constituency members in both Parliaments. I do think this | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
story affecting an area where the dominant issue over the last two | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
centuries has not been one of fear of immigration, but fear of | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
emigration that this family with so much to contribute and have | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
contributed so much already, having been attracted to it by a Government | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
sponsor - a Scottish Government-sponsored initiative to | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
invite them to come, having qualified and worked and sustained | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
themselves, are now to be kicked out of the country next Tuesday unless | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
the Home Secretary and her Ministers will have the courtesy to look at | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
this matter again and exercise the Ministerial discretion which Maos | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
certainly should be exercised in this case. | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
If the Home Office minister would like to say a word, I'd gladly give | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
way at this stage. Well the silence from the frontbench should be a | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
matter of shame, because there is a substantial injustice being | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
inflicted on this family and a substantial discredit on our | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
country. And it's not just becoming an immigration issue, it's not just | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
an community issue. And a human rights issue, as the honourable lady | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
rightly says, this is a matter where the Home Office are turning their | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
face against the massive support of just about every Parliamentarian | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
from Scotland and refusing to accept and acknowledge that this family | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
came to tower country on a -- came to our country on a | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
Government-sponsored scheme, I hope they will find within their hearts | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
to look at this matter over the ne. Xt seven days. | :10:26. | :10:33. | |
I secondly want to turn to the question of Libya and the Foreign | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
Secretary referred a few moments ago to his visit to Tripoli, where he | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
said the UK were ready to provide training to the new administration's | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
armed forces, "It will be possible for us and our partners to support | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
the mill tear training programme -- military training programme, such a | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
mission would not require a Commons vote because quote, that does not | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
extend to noncombat missions, he said. The chairman of the Select | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
Committee is in his place, it rejected the idea of idea of a | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
training mission stating that quote, "Even if you say it's just a | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
training mission rather than a combat one, any foreign troop | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
presence in Tripoli will be seen as a Western intervention". The | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
commander of Libya's Air Force warned, if any foreign soldier | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
touches our soil with his foot, all Libyan people will be united against | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
him, our problems will be aggravated by foreign troops. An interview in | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
RT, the former UK ambassador to Libya warned against loose talk of | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
military intervention in the collapsing state, he said, "There's | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
been talk of possible military intervention. I don't think it's | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
helpful at the moment, because intervention is not what they need." | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
Following the Foreign Affairs Select Committee visit to north Africa, | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
middle of April, the committee chairman wrote to the Foreign | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
Secretary accusing him of being less than candid and deliberately | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
misleading to the uninformed reader over plans to send British troops to | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
join an Italian-led training mission. Madam Deputy Speaker, we | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
are a few weeks away on July 6 from the publication of the Chilcot | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
report. One of the key issues which many of us hope will be identified | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
and brought out in that report is the issue of pre-commitment, of what | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
commitments were made by the then Prime Minister in 2002, which then | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
dictated all his subsequent actions. I would like to ask the Foreign | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
Secretary to get a straight answer and not just the question of combat | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
roles which the Defence Secretary referred to earlier on, a straight | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
answer as what if any commitments have been made in terms of | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
intervention in Libya at this stage? Or is it genuinely a question, if I | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
can ask the Foreign Secretary, that before any such commitments are | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
undertaken, there will be a debate and vote in this House to ascertain | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
the wisdom or otherwise of such an intervention? Madam Deputy Speaker, | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
I want to move on lastly to the question of the European campaign | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
and to project fear, as it was called. Project fear was a term | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
which was deviced from an internal memo in the better together campaign | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
in the Scottish referendum, where they self-described their campaign | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
as project fear. I want to argue for a few seconds as to why I think this | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
is entirely the wrong campaign to adopt. The Chancellor of the | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
Exchequer has subtall shall form on this matter. In the 13th November | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
2011 he gave an interview on BBC Scotland television where he | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
predicted a collapse in inward investment in Scotland because of | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
the referendum of 2014. This was followed by record years of inward | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
investment in Scotland, in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014. The current | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
Secretary of State for Scotland had the brass neck in a statement on the | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
17th June last year to claim the credit for the record inward | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
investment figures of 2014. Nor should anyone in the Leave campaign | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
be surprised by the necessity fair ack -- necessity fairious activities | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
of Her Majesty's Treasury given the more necessity fairious activities | :14:40. | :14:41. | |
in the Scottish referendum campaign. My question today, Madam Deputy | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
Speaker, is does this sort of material actually win the hearts and | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
minds in a referendum campaign? And I don't think it does. I hear from | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
the Labour benches that we lost the referendum of Scotland, and that is | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
a matter of fact and record. That is absolutely true. That referendum | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
campaign was launched with the 'Yes' campaign at 28% of the vote. The | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
finishing vote for the 'Yes' campaign was 45%. This campaign in | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
Europe has been launched with a much tighter margin between the two | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
sides. If the remain campaign loses 1% a month during the campaign, then | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
the result will not be as I or the honourable gentleman would wish. | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
I'll give way. Isn't the reality that actually the right honourable | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
member wants remain to lose because he then can get his agenda of having | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
another referendum for independence within two years? And the fact is | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
that his party are hardly doing anything at this moment to campaign | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
to remain in the United Kingdom - for the United Kingdom to remain in | :15:49. | :15:50. | |
the European Union. THE SPEAKER: Order. Can I just say, | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
no, no, no, don't tell me. I need to let you know. Senior member you are, | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
and a lot to offer, but you want to speak. I don't want to be the man | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
that puts you to the bottom of the list. Between us, we can all get | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
there, short interventions if you must will be better if you didn't. | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
Alex. Thank you Mr Chairman. Can I say to the honourable member, he | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
should really read today's familiar threat, the EU and you, released by | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
the Scottish Government explaining in a considered and proper way why | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
European Union membership is of benefit to Scotland. Not even the | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
most rabid of the Leave campaign could describe that familiar threat | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
today as -- pamphlet today as resellbling project fear, but it | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
makes a considered case as to why EU membership is of benefit to | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
Scotland. If he looks at the most recent polls, the ICM poll, on that | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
poll for the UK today, the two sides are level on an online poll. On the | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
ICM poll in Scotland, margin is two to one for remain. Does that not | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
indicate, given that even the honourable gentleman will have | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
noticed the diminishing fortunes of his party in Scotland and the rising | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
fortunes of the SNP, does that not suggest in a way that the campaign | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
we are conducting in Scotland is rather more successful in winning | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
hearts and minds to the European cause than the campaign that's being | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
conducted across the country. And a case in point would be the release | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
of the Treasury statistics on the economy yesterday. The analysis, the | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
expectations analysis, which expectations model is the ultimate | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
model, garbage in, garbage out. You manufacture your result from your | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
input to the model, suggesting a 3. 6% or 6% wipeout of GDP from a euro | :17:53. | :18:00. | |
exit. No other credible forecaster is suggesting anything like that | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
effect. Other suggestions 1. 3%, hang Kong and Shanghai bank, 1. 5, | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
the National Institute for economic and social research, who use the | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
Treasury model are suggesting 2. 3%. All of these are - by all means. The | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
point he's making about project fear, I think it's terribly | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
counterproductive. We should remember that those pedalling | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
project fear are broadly the same group of people who predicted doom | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
and gloom if we did not join the euro. So they have form. What I | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
would say is there is one ray of hope. The leader of the Remain | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
campaign has said if we were to leave the EU, better control of | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
immigration for the sake of public services - | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
THE SPEAKER: Order. No. I think now we're going to be serious with the | :18:54. | :18:55. | |
House because members want to get in. I just mentioned on one side | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
short interventions. Do not abuse the chair, because what you're doing | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
is abusing colleagues on both sides. I don't think that's good for | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
anybody. It's a debate. I want to get as many people in as possible. | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
Ideally everybody. Alex Salmond. There's a bit of irony isn't it that | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
those on the opposite side of the House who have been complaining | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
loudly about project fear hardly raised a peep when the same campaign | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
was conducted against the Scottish people some two years ago. So I | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
would claim for the honourable gentleman, at least the ride of | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
consistency on these matters. The point I'm making, for these | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
established and credible forecasters are indicating enough of the | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
economic damage that I believe would be done to this country through an | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
exit, without having to manufacture and inflate statistics which | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
actually bring the whole argument into disrepute. It is enough for | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
people to know there'll be an economic impact, without trying to | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
inflate that impact beyond what is reasonable. I would commend the | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
Governor of the Bank of England who said, in terms of scenarios, they | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
could possible include a technical recession. I believe the Bank of | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
England has actually demonstrated through bodge the Scottish | :20:16. | :20:17. | |
referendum and -- both the Scottish referendum and this current | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
referendum campaign how public servants should behave in terms of | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
offering information and considered analysis. So I think the major | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
danger to the Remain campaign is not the arguments of the Leave campaign. | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
The Leave campaign is fundamentally split between those who see the UK's | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
future after an exit as a Switzerland or Norway, or those who | :20:42. | :20:50. | |
think it can be some sort of transatlantic, it's a fundamental | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
divide that cannot be resolved. The way to minimise damage from exit | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
would be to adopt the Norwegian model. The majority of the Leave | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
campaign will not subscribe to that. It brings with it accepting of the | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
single market, of the various regulations and of course, free | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
movement of Labour. -- labour. That is the fundamental problem with the | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
Leave campaign. The Remain campaign across the UK, should at the present | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
moment, be as far ahead as we are in Scotland. The fact that we are not | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
is an indication that this campaign should be recalibrated to be one | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
which starts to win the hearts and minds, which talks about some of the | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
issues that the Foreign Secretary alluded to. That after 66 years, | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
since the Shuman declaration, we can that European Union has contributed | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
to peace, stability and prosperity across Europe. Over that time, | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
building a single market of 500 people is no mean achievement. And | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
for this side of the chamber in particular, the social gains to | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
every family and to every trade Unionist in this country, the things | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
the Government don't like to talk about are a very, very substantial | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
reason for not leaving the EU behind. But I would also add to the | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
credibility of our arguments, if we were able to accept, as indeed the | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
leader of the Opposition did in his speech, that the problems and | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
difficulties that people have with the European Union. I suggested on | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
the 11th of May to the Prime Minister in a letter that it might | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
enhance the support for the Remain campaign with one group in Scotland, | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
who have huge scepticism, the fishing community. Because of all | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
European Union policies, which could be considered disastrous, the Common | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
Fisheries Policy is the greatest disaster of all European policies. I | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
suggested that the Prime Minister consider suggesting over next year's | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
presidency of the European Council by the UK that the Scottish | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
fisheries minister has 60% of the landing should cochair the Council | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
with the UK fisheries minister. A matter, incidentally, which the | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
Prime Minister was very open to when he came to office in 20 #10, as | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
indeed was the Foreign Secretary's predecessor, William Hague. I asked | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
him, suggested that a response to that invitation would be helpful to | :23:17. | :23:24. | |
my former constituents before purdah in three days' time. I was delighted | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
to receive a letter last week from the correspondence officer of the | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
direct communication unit unnamed at Downing Street saying that my | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
request was being considered. But I would hope that the Foreign | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
Secretary today, if he's genuinely interested in strengthening the | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
position of the Remain campaign, might indicate to fishing | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
communities in Scotland that their needs will take advantage of the | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
European Council president in order to iron out many of the difficulties | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
in the current regulations. Many of us on this side of the House would | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
have wished the Government to address the fears that many of our | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
constituents have about T-tip without being forced by an | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
Opposition amendment. These are genuine fears that a court process | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
may allow an aggressive intervention in the national Health Service. | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
I had a meeting with the Baltic states and Scandinavian ambassadors | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
last week. They were indicating to me that when this Government took | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
office, then they invested great hopes in the Prime Minister's | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
Northerner agenda in the reform agenda at that time he was putting | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
forward for the EU. But the view and belief is that has been deflected | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
into this referendum, which is about British exceptionalism as opposed to | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
a genuine reform of the European institutions. My submission is that | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
a campaign which will endorse and have an enthusiastic response which | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
won't allow the danger of different tool voting between an integer attic | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
Brexit tea and those who are cowed into submission by the Government's | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
project fear. It campaign that will mobilise people to the polling | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
stations will be one that means the Government will have to rise above | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
the campaign they are fighting so far and actually make a positive | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
case for the EU that will get people out of their houses and into the | :25:37. | :25:45. | |
polling stations. It is a great pleasure to be able to participate | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
in this debate on the gracious speech. If I may say to my | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
honourable friend the Foreign Secretary it was an immense breadth | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
-- pleasure to hear him present and articulated in such clear terms | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
Conservative principles of international engagement, in | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
particular are at hearings to a rules -based international system. | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
We have a long tradition in this and it is perhaps one of our greatest | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
offerings to the world and I want to return to that in a few moments. The | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
hero Dixon added in the way that he did seemed to me to put it | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
absolutely with crystal clarity that the UK sees it self as being part of | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
the creation of a rules -based system that helps maintain values | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
and further freedom, democracy and the rule of law. I have no doubt | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
that as we meet we are facing in terms of promoting those values are | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
really serious challenges. Whether it is from Russia, which appears to | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
be in some respects descending into being a gangster state when it comes | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
to it grows violations of international law, or the Middle | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
East in its anarchy, it is quite clear that on our doorstep and very | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
close to us and capable of affecting us, there are a whole series of | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
processes taking place that quite frankly on any analysis would appear | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
to be retrograde. That, I think, must inform the entire way in which | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
we look at how we pursue our own policies. I am delighted that the | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
Government has made progress on the investigatory Powers Bill in | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
committee. I recognise that it is absolutely essential that we should | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
have the tools to protect ourselves properly against those who see to do | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
us harm. The bill is assuredly, I understand, to return to this has | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
four report stage and I very much hope will be able make further | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
progress there so as to ensure that the Government's completely | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
legitimate aims of protecting us all in this country can be reconciled | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
with some of the concerns people have about personal liberty. I am | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
convinced they can be, and I look forward to playing a part in that | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
process when the bill comes to this house, I have no doubt with other | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
members of the intelligence occurred deep committee that I have the | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
privilege to chair. I also take an interest in the extremism bill. | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
Here, I have to say to my honourable friend Home Secretary that I do have | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
a -- considerable concerns of how this will be framed in practice, so | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
as to reconcile the rights of freedom of expression even when | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
those matters being expressed are ones with which we heartily | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
disagree. I think we have to be very careful, there is a tendency within | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
democracy, perhaps for understandable reasons of electoral | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
advantage at times, that we stay silent in the face of comments which | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
are made which with we may disagree but nevertheless would like to at | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
least encourage people to consider giving us their support. The | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
problems with legislation of this kind is that they mice both and | :29:11. | :29:18. | |
habitat -- antagonise and suddenly free us as parliamentarian from the | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
judges of challenging people to express points of view which in | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
practice are incompatible with the furtherance and survival of | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
democracy. We need to look to ourselves and what we do as | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
parliamentarians just as much as we need to look to any legislation | :29:33. | :29:41. | |
which we seek to enact. That brings me to the two he points out like to | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
make about this issue of rules -based international systems. It is | :29:46. | :29:53. | |
the UK's principal gift to the world. I once asked an office how | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
many treaties we had signed up to and although they were reluctant to | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
go back beyond 1834, they accepted that since then we had signed up | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
over 13,000, which were still extant. Over 700 have arbitral | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
mechanisms within them for resolving disputes with the UK undertakes to | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
accept the binding judgment of the tribunal or arbitrator in respect of | :30:20. | :30:27. | |
them. The EU treaties, of course, and the European Convention on human | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
rights, are no different from any of the others when it comes to the | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
intentions behind the UK in having signed up to it. What are we to make | :30:36. | :30:44. | |
of some of my colleagues in parliament who, for example, say | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
that not only do they want the UK to withdraw from the European Union, | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
but that when we have had a vote, which they hope will support it, we | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
should not take the unlawful root of invoking Article 50 of the European | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
Union treaty but should merely legislate in Parliament to delete | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
those aspects of the treaty that appear to be owners or incompatible | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
with our own views. Actually, advocating something that is no | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
different from the President Putin saying it is legitimate to our next | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
the Crimea because the Russian Duma has said it is an acceptable thing | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
to do. That is the reality of some, I emphasise Essam, of the very | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
strained utterances that we are hearing on the course of this debate | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
on the referendum on the European Union. -- I emphasised some. Not | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
only policies on the future but I will enlist -- at willingness to | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
date of its suggestions that the UK should adopt an archaic approach to | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
our international obligations. That brings me to my principal point, | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
that in the gracious beach there is a further reference to enacting a | :32:00. | :32:08. | |
bill of rights. I would like to make clear that there may be arguments | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
why the UK might profitably seek to have a Bill of Rights. As time goes | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
by I begin to think that the changes, particularly the widespread | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
constitutional changes as a result of devolution, are such a character | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
that providing a constitutional framework in which that can operate | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
might be of merit, but I recognise that as an enormous task to take on | :32:35. | :32:36. | |
an adult criticise my honourable friends in Government to remark upon | :32:37. | :32:46. | |
it. I do see that a bill of rights might play a key role and it was | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
discussed with might have a Bill of Rights back in the early 1990s | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
before we decided to enact the Human Rights Act. But I confess it is | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
quite clear that that is not, I think, what my colleagues in | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
Government have in mind. Indeed, part of the problem it is very | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
unclear what they do have in mind, but it's certainly not that. It | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
appears to range from some minor cosmetic changes to the Human Rights | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
Act to which I would simply echo the expression of view of might | :33:22. | :33:23. | |
honourable friend the member for Rushcliffe that if that is really | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
what is intended, what on earth is the point? To suggestions that | :33:27. | :33:35. | |
radical change can be affected to the Human Rights Act and to the text | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
of the convention which, as far as I can see, would then almost | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
automatically place us in breach of our obligations under the European | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
Convention. The European Convention is certainly not a perfect document | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
that I have no doubt its interpretation by the European board | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
of human rights has at times been imperfect as well. But, bluntly, | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
which constitutes without the slightest doubt in my view the | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
single most important lever that has ever been devised on this planet for | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
improving human rights, not only in Europe, but also worldwide. The UK's | :34:14. | :34:23. | |
ambivalent position to the convention is doing us immense | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
reputational damage and I have to say is also damaging the | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
effectiveness of the convention. The UK's position being invoked by Mr | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
Putin to justify Russian intransigence and implementing | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
European Court of Human Rights judgments or, indeed, in the past | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
the president of Kenya in justifying failure to cooperate with the | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
International criminal Court, which is at the centre of my honourable | :34:50. | :34:57. | |
friend's the Foreign Secretary's efforts in promoting human rights | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
worldwide. There are other examples as well, including by other | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
signatory states like the Ukraine. So we have to keep in mind as we | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
debate this matter and as the Government proceeds to consider what | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
to do about a bill of rights that this is not an internal | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
conversation, it is one that goes to the very heart of the principles | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
that my honourable friend the Foreign Secretary so clearly set | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
out. And I do have concerns that this debate should be conducted in a | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
way that reflects that, that reflects the immense changes that | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
have been taking place, you're being modest about it, thanks to the | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
efforts of my honourable friend the member for Rushcliffe. He actually | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
looks at how the convention is operating today and is being applied | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
today in this country through the Human Rights Act, not just at how it | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
was being applied ten years ago. If we keep that in mind we may come up | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
with some sensible conclusions. Although I would urge upon my | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
colleagues on the front bench that any consultation period on this | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
should be long enough to enable us all to consider and participate in | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
it fully. With that in mind, I am pleased, really pleased, to hear the | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
way in which, as I say, the Government article it at its | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
adherence to a national rules -based systems afternoon. It brought me | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
into the Conservative Party, although our adherence and belief is | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
not exclusive to us. It is probably shared widely across the house. In | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
those circumstances we need to uphold it and if we do that we will | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
come up with the right conclusions English is to legislation that is | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
being proposed by the Government for this session. -- in relation to | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
legislation. I would like to set a few words about the counter | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
extremism bill and the question of human rights. First, I want to pay | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
tribute to the speech of his Shadow Foreign Secretary, which I strongly | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
agreed with. It was a speech that was profound, principled and | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
progressive and I want to say that in thinking that I'm wanting some | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
sort of promotion because I'm so beyond that at this point, I thought | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
it was a really exceptionally good speech and I think he does a great | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
deal of credit to our party and also to this house and to politics. I | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
thank him for what he said and I'm glad to have the option to Giorgi | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
speech of the Right Honourable member for Rushcliffe. He is a | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
weighty member of this house, speaking as he does as a former Home | :37:35. | :37:43. | |
Secretary, former Justice Secretary, former Health Secretary, former | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer. He is well and truly a four-man. And I | :37:46. | :37:53. | |
agreed with off a lot of what he said, in fact, everything he said | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
about prison reform and Europe, which I find quite traumatic since | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
when I was first in the house he was sitting in Margaret Thatcher's | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
cabinet and therefore was not to be agreed with an anything, but I did | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
agree with what he said. I too find myself to be elevated to these | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
staters of a former, although not as weighty as he is. I do sense that in | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
this house that one of the things about formers is we must crack on | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
with our speeches and not make them too long. I will make just two | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
points. That is a reference to the member for Gordon, not the member | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
for Beaconsfield or Rushcliffe. Two measures are weekly bus makes speech | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
that I want to mention. First the category streamers and Bill and I | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
have the privilege of being the chair of the joint committee on | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
human rights and I'm glad to see the honourable member forgot the North | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
was on the committee with a particular interest in mental health | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
and human rights is here in the chamber. The Government has a duty | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
to protect us, responsibility that any and every Government takes with | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
the utmost seriousness. That is undoubtedly contested ground. When | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
it comes to how to tackle terrorism and specifically the task of | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
countering Daesh inspired terrorism there is no consensus. The | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
Government's approach appears as it set out in the counter extremism | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
strategy to be based on the assumption that there is no | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
disclosure that starts with religious conservatism and ends up | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
with support for Jihad is. And therefore its religious conservatism | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
that is the starting point for the quest to tackle violence. It is by | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
no means proved or agreed that extreme religious views and | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
religious conservatism in particular are in and of themselves an | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
indicator of or correlated with support for jihad is. | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
If there are to be banning orders, disruption orders and closure | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
orders, it has to be clear they are banning disruption, closing | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
something which is going to lead to violence, not just something of | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
which the Government disapproves. The second issue is if the | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
Government is going to clamp down on Islamic religious conservatism in | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
terms of tackling violence, is that discrimination that can be justified | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
or will it serve merely to give rise to justified grievance? Everyone | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
seems to agree that the most precious asset in the fight against | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
terrorism is ablation ship between the authorities, the police, | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
schools, councils, and the Muslim communities of this country. We must | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
guard against any undermining of the relationship between the authorities | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
on the Muslim community which would thereby make the fight against | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
terrorism even harder. The last thing we must do with anything which | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
fosters the alienation which can lead to radicalisation. The third | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
issue is the problem of taking religious conservative views in the | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
Muslim community as a feature of terrorism, if the same beliefs in | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
evangelical, Christian or Orthodox Judaism would not be seen as | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
prompting the need for any action. Is the Government going to | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
discriminate and seek to justify that, or will it be indiscriminate | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
and annoy and concern everybody? The fourth issue is the question of | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
definition, and this was hinted at by the member for Gillingham in his | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
intervention. Even where, even word there reliable evidence of extreme | :41:30. | :41:37. | |
views into violence, if the law is to be invoked, there needs to be | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
clarity and consensus around the definition. It is far from clear | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
that there is an accepted affirmation of what constitutes | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
nonviolent extremism, or indeed, it is extremism. In the counter | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
extremism strategy the Government described extremism as the vocal or | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
active opposition to our fundamental values, including democracy, the | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
rule of law, individual liberty and the mutual respect of tolerance of | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
different faiths and beliefs. Now, I am not tolerant of the beliefs of | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
those who are homophobic. I do not respect those who regard women as | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
inferior. Which is the extremism, their beliefs or my intolerance of | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
their beliefs? If you'd announce our judiciary as biased Islamophobics, | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
is that undermining the rule of law or the exercise of your free speech? | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
In the past I have done a fair amount of denouncing the judiciary | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
for all sorts of things in the past, but I wouldn't have regarded myself | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
as extremist, just pointing out that they were sexist and needed to be | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
replaced by many more women judges. Anyway, the fifth issue is whether | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
it is better to suppress views or express them to challenge. Many in | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
the higher education sector say they believe it is better to challenge | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
abhorrent views than suppress them, but do you allow the same approach | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
for school-aged children? Some have argued it simply should be seen as a | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
question of child safeguarding when it comes to children. But whilst | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
there is a consensus around the nature of child neglect or physical | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
abuse, or sexual abuse from which children have to be safeguarded, | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
there is no such consensus around the definition of extremism, from | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
which children should be safeguarded. We can all understand | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
the definition of safeguarding, it's just a question of what you are | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
safeguarding children from and in relation to extremism, there is no | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
such shared consensus definition. The difficulty around these issues | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
should lead to the to trade with great great care. They should | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
publish the Bill in draft and allow extensive debate and discussion for | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
some we should listen with particular attention to those who | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
would be expected to apply for these orders and enforce these orders, the | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
police, X education establishments and councils. We should listen with | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
particular attention to those in the Muslim community. Next I would like | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
to turn very briefly to the issue of the question of the repeal of the | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
Human Rights Act, replacing it with the British Bill of Rights, which I | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
completely agree with the right honourable member for Beaconsfield | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
with everything he said on this. We haven't yet seen the consultation, | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
but when we do, it will be important for the Government to tread very | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
carefully on this as well. The Government should ensure human | :44:38. | :44:45. | |
rights remain universal, not just those who are popular and carving | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
out against those who are unpopular. Legal protection of human rights is | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
important for everyone, even those who are justifiably the subject of | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
public hostility. The Government shouldn't do anything that makes it | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
more difficult for people here to enforce their rights in the UK | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
courts, which is something the right honourable member for Rushcliffe | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
said. I myself had to trek all the way to Strasberg to get my human | :45:08. | :45:17. | |
rights. The Government must do nothing which would disrupt the | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
devolution settlement in Scotland or the peace agreement in Northern | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
Ireland, in which the Human Rights Act is part. This was made clear to | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
us on our visit to Scotland and evidence submitted to us by Northern | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
Ireland. As the Foreign Secretary acknowledged, this country is seen | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
as a champion of human rights around the world. The Government should be | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
mindful of how what we in the UK do affects those in other countries who | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
are fighting for their rights and don't have the democracy and the | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
rights that we have in this country. Our adherence to international | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
standard of human rights, for example the European Convention, our | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
adherence to that international framework is a beacon which those | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
campaigning for rights in other countries look to demand in their | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
own countries. This was made absolutely clear to us when we went | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
to visit the Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe in | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
Strasbourg. People said, whether it was from Poland or Russia, if you | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
leave the European Convention we are done for, basically. If our | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
government were to abandon the European convention that would have | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
a devastating affect on the progress of human rights in other countries. | :46:34. | :46:35. | |
Now, getting to the final point about the court, no government likes | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
any court telling them what to do. Legislators, elected as we are, we | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
don't like to be constrained by unelected judges. This parliament | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
doesn't like to be constrained, government, which has managed to get | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
itself elected and into government, even less likes to be restrained. | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
That is multiplied when the judicial ruling comes from, perish the | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
thought, abroad. But even the most well-intentioned government needs to | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
be subject to the rule of law. Governments can abuse their power, | :47:09. | :47:15. | |
on purpose or by mistake, oversight by the courts is essential. | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
International standards presided over by International courts are | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
important abroad, and important to us too. If government doesn't agree | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
with the court ruling, it can just gnash its teeth or perhaps trying | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
get the court to think again in a subsequent grace. But a judgment | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
government doesn't agree with doesn't justify rejection of the | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
jurisdiction of the court. In conclusion, Mr Deputy Speaker, it is | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
easy to promise to tackle extremism, to make human rights are dirty word, | :47:46. | :47:53. | |
but when it comes to bringing forward legislation the Government | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
needs to tread carefully, consult widely and work on the basis of | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
consensus. But certainly what I've heard in this debate already today | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
makes me feel confident that their members on all sides of this house | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
and we know they are in the House of Lords as well, we'll make sure the | :48:10. | :48:11. | |
Government do exactly that. We will introduce the five-minute | :48:12. | :48:22. | |
limit now. I shall try to use twitter like brevity. The first | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
point I want to make is to reinforce the points made by my right | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
honourable and learn that friend from Rushcliffe run prisons. And I | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
gently him that we inherited a prison position where the numbers | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
would be 96,000 prisons if we hadn't done anything. The fact they | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
stabilised 85 with a rather significant achievement. It is | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
disappointing it has not gone down. On the European convention on human | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
rights and the speeches made by the writer on the lady on my right | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
honourable friend for Beaconsfield, I into highly endorse the sentiments | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
they are expressing. I do that having just come back with the | :49:07. | :49:08. | |
Foreign Affairs Committee from Russia. Whilst pausing to put on | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
record my thanks to our ambassador there and his team for the programme | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
they put on for us, part of that included meeting human rights | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
activists in Russia, and the convention is very often the only | :49:25. | :49:33. | |
resort that they have, going through the Russian courts. The Russian | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
legal system, presided over by a Duma passing laws that are going in | :49:40. | :49:46. | |
a non-liberal direction, at least as a contest contested space of some | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
kind and you can get some protection and there is also some protection | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
available overseeing that, from the convention itself. We had some very | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
good briefings there, and the message clearly coming back to us... | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
And I think this house should be thinking about Russian human rights | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
activists when we're considering British support for the European | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
convention. Issues such as whether a few prisoners are going to vote, | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
have the right to vote stand pretty small against the quality of the | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
work that is being done, the courage of the work that is being done | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
there. Reflecting on our relations with | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
Russia overall, they are absolutely in the deep freeze at the minute. | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
Our bilateral relations are in an extremely poor place, struck by the | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
way both missions, the Russian mission here in London and our | :50:44. | :50:50. | |
mission in Moscow are largely obstructed in tit-for-tat measures. | :50:51. | :50:59. | |
That is what we are reduced to, with both missions complaining about the | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
measures being imposed upon them. I put it in the meeting we had with | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
Russian officials in the Foreign Office, their Foreign Office that | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
oversees British affairs, it might be an idea if they started relaxing | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
some of the measures on British representation in Moscow, to begin | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
to try and get out of this downward spiral. Let's see if there are some | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
migrant measures that can be made to make the work of British diplomat | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
easier to start this process. What has gone wrong here is the strategic | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
relationship falling out at the end of the Cold War. Probably rightly, | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
the West decided to secure the position of our central and Eastern | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
European people in Europe, but at the price of that was the failure to | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
get effective strategic relationship with Russia. That has been made | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
infinitely more difficult now by Russia's departure from the | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
international rules of the road. There is an issue about whether we | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
are going to try and help the Russians out of the cul-de-sac they | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
have got themselves into. I do think even if it is, initially, at the | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
level of cultural exchanges and students coming here, we should | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
invest in this relationship in anyway that we can. It is a very | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
important relationship. Russia is a very important country, whilst | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
accepting, which is why it becomes even more critical when a country of | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
that size is under the leadership that it is, a leadership that is in | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
a position of deep lack of self-confidence, underneath, even | :52:39. | :52:46. | |
though they might tactically look, tactically feel strong. Finally, on | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
the European Union debate, I thought the Shadow Foreign Secretary in the | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
first part of his speech, it was a terrific speech. But then he set up | :52:58. | :53:05. | |
the opposition case. There are two internationalisms competing ever | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
stop there are very good arguments as to why the United Kingdom | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
geopolitically has a choice here. I think that we should be trying to | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
have positive arguments on both sides. I can't get into those | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
arguments because of the time limit, but I urge all colleagues to be | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
positive in our day present their case on this issue. Chris Elmore. | :53:24. | :53:33. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to follow the chairman of | :53:34. | :53:35. | |
the foreign affairs select committee. This is my maiden speech | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
in this house. It is I hope the first of many contributions in | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
representing the people of Ogmore as long as I'm able to catch the | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
Speaker's I. I make my speech with a sense of pride and utility. I'm | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
proud to have been elected to this house for the people of Ogmore and | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
to represent and work for them in Parliament. To me there is no | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
greater honour. I'm humbled by the trust they have placed a meter | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
represent them as their member of Parliament and I shall never forget | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
the opportunity they have given me and I wish to place on record my | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
sincere thanks to all of my constituency voted for me. | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
To those who voted for my opponents or those who did not vote at all I | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
wish to prove that I am worthy of their spot in the future. I want to | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
serve all of my constituents to the best of my ability throughout my | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
time in the house. It is custom to pay tribute to your predecessor when | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
delivering a maiden speech, many on one Right Honourable members have | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
been elected in by-elections, some following the tragic passing of a | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
previous member and sundry to the retirement of the member do to help | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
health but very few will succeed the previous member as they have been | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
elected to a new office. I wonder if I am unique in the modern age of | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
devolution in that my predecessor is, I'm pleased to say, not only | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
alive and well in a fit state of health, is still representing the | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
same constituency as he did in this house so diligently only a few weeks | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
ago. I have been reminded by many of my constituents in the 19 days since | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
my election that I have big shoes to fill. With one constituent informing | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
me on Saturday last if you can be half as good as you, you will do all | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
right, boy. Hugh Rank gave its's contributed to this house is a | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
constituency member can Government minister and select committee chair | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
been significant. His work in the office and environment Minister has | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
found him the reputation of a champion of environmental issues and | :55:38. | :55:39. | |
I'm confident he will now make a significant contribution in the | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
National Assembly for Wales. I knew Hugh's dedication to the many | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
communities that make up the constituency has meant he earned the | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
respect of many of what Homo Naledi our constituents and I do have big | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
shoes to fill. -- to many of our constituents. Unfortunate to work | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
alongside him and able to walk ask for advice and I needed and | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
practical have a friend. I am aware of the most parliamentarians that | :56:06. | :56:07. | |
have come before me who have ripped into the constituency in all of its | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
forms since 1918. I also conscious of the lungs and electors -- -- | :56:14. | :56:21. | |
long-standing trust the electors are placed in the Labour Party. What to | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
stand up for the many communities across more, something I'm | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
determined to continue. It means that with the help of no more | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
by-elections I am looking forward to marking the centenary of a Labour | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
presentation there in 2018. As to my knowledge I do not plan to go | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
anywhere. One of my predecessors serve the people for more than 20 | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
years and championed many local and national causes and shared a mutual | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
skill with me. Me longer serving members of the house have been keen | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
to share stories of sediment's skills in the whip's offers but I'm | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
yet to discover if I have such abilities. We are both trained in | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
victory. Sir payment, master butcher, and media butchery | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
assistant. I'm not sure if my skills with a knife will ever come to use | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
with this house but I'm told by members is a useful skill to have. I | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
assume metaphorically. The diverse nature of the comment that make up | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
more rich in character with proud histories and I believe Bright | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
futures. A landlocked community with many former mining villages and | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
towns that have shaped the rich histories of the valleys, as well as | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
the committees of Evans town. To the south are the villages of blackmail, | :57:39. | :57:46. | |
before reaching the 20s of Abba Kennewick. In his Jebet is truancy | :57:47. | :57:55. | |
-- in the history of the crew constituency and former villages are | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
growing at a pace that the sense of community remains. Adria is taught, | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
and sports men and women compete at national level. As many of the | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
villages and towns across the constituency as well as the physical | :58:10. | :58:11. | |
landscape have recovered from the heavy industries that once dominated | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
many of them, I am pleased to say the rich culture of music, sport, | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
entertainment and proud history has continued and grows year on year. | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
The cultural capital of Ogmore boasts some of the greatest names in | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
the entertainment industry haven't performed there. As well as being to | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
lay claim to being the end two ancestral home of none other than | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
Kylie Minogue. It releases me not to mention the annual festival that | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
opened at the end of last week and I'm looking forward to enjoying the | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
Richmond comics of opera, choirs, theatre productions and various | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
events for young people the coming weeks. Music and its history is | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
deeply rooted in all more with the world-famous music being written in | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
the Garw Valley and male voice choir is playing a significant part in | :59:03. | :59:11. | |
community life. The choir in one -- Ogmore Vale continues to age and | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
thousands of performances. As the newly elected MP I will entertain | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
members of the choir with the song of their choice at a future choir | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
rehearsal. I can safely say I have not been that the ability to sing | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
like so many of my fellow and women so I will be a one night only | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
performance. When speaking of Ogmore I am like many who live there, | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
deeply proud of its history and culture and I also see a positive | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
future for the constituency in the years ahead. Nestled in the villages | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
and towns are industries that are thriving. Many members will be | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
unaware that if they are ever in a position where they need a | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
parachute, including those, or an ejector seat, odds are on the bean | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
manufactured here. A Spanish -- specialist industries Gauke you | :00:01. | :00:02. | |
would think parachute production would be niche, however poor boasts | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
many technological hubs such as the basis of the Sony allowing designers | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
to beat their full potential including the velvet of video games | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
and the training of young people in the use of coding. -- development. | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
Something is still completely beyond me. We are home to the Rockwell | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
factory that constructs insulation made from stone that can be found in | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
many structures across the UK employing hundreds of people | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
directly and over a thousand in to be. Of course, many constituents are | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
in connected occupations at the still works in Port Talbot and the | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
potential closers are of significant concern that I will do my utmost to | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
keep the pressure on the Government to ensure a long-term plan is to | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
steel industry, not just in Wales, but working with several members | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
across the UK. My constituency has faced that is industry ending and a | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
legacy that causes, we cannot allow this to happen again. The European | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
Union has played a significant part in funding many of the project that | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
have been delivered across my constituency. Including much-needed | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
European social fund monies used to train and Rhys young people and | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
deliver employment schemes such as success jobs growth Wales initiative | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
delivered by the Welsh Labour Government. As a proud member of the | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
GMB and Unison trade unions, clearly workers rights are close to my | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
heart. It is one of the reasons why I'm proud of campaign to vote Remain | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
in the coming referendum to the many improved workers rights that benefit | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
the people of Wales and the UK. As a direct consequence of the UK's | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
membership of the EU and the work of trade Unions, I'm surprised this | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
method to support the metabolite of Parahi the Labour Party members who | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
campaigned for me in the recent election and I am grateful for the | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
support they receive -- they've shown in recent months. I would like | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
to bid to boost my parents that offer apology to them for the | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
turbulence of having a son who works in politics. I would like to thank | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
my partner who has tolerated my career choice in recent years. I | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
hope I live up to their expectations. As for to making | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
further contributions to this house in the coming months and years | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
ahead, always ensuring people of Ogmore my first priority. -- are my | :02:26. | :02:35. | |
first. It is an enormous pleasure to follow the member for Ogmore, who | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
has entertained the house with a truly exceptional maiden speech, he | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
spoke about his constituency with eloquence and his predecessors with | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
wit, many of us remember his distinguished predecessor Sir | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
Raymond, indeed I served in a Government whip's offers opposite | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
him and I can indeed confirm to the honourable member that he was a | :03:05. | :03:13. | |
distinguished butcher. He will discover, I hope, that his | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
anticipation and expectations of working with people across the house | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
will be fulfilled, you will find that on the side of the house we are | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
the opposition and not the enemy and I personally have looked forward | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
very much indeed to working with him in the future. It is perfectly clear | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
from his maiden speech that he will indeed fulfil the expectations that, | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
as he said, yorkers partner and constituents would seem fulfil as | :03:44. | :03:54. | |
well. This speech today that we are discussing is an authentic one | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
nation speech, it puts at its heart social mobility and makes it clear | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
about the importance of capitalism working for everyone and put some | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
flesh on the bones of the speech that the Prime Minister made at the | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
party conference last year, which I thought one of the finest speeches | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
he has made. Just now, Europe dominates our politics and in our | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
town Hall in southern coalfield -- Sutton Coldfield. We will have a | :04:24. | :04:34. | |
debate for the town. I can tell the house that tickets for this great | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
debate sold out faster than tickets for Glastonbury, all gone within 30 | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
minutes yesterday. Mr deputy speaker, today -- I want to make for | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
brief points. The first is that want to see a much greater focus in this | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
Parliamentary session on the importance of building new homes. It | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
is virtually impossible today for young people to get on the housing | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
ladder in the way that it was for my generation and dreams of a property | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
owning democracy are receding. They must be built on the right place and | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
insults -- Sutton Coldfield we suffer from the proposals of | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
Birmingham's Labour Council to build no less than 6000 new homes on | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
Sutton Coldfield's Green belt which is unacceptable and we look to the | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
Government to call this in at an early stage. We want to give three | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
brief ideas for how we can make that easier. The first is there much be | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
more imaginative and considerate inner-city developments with more | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
power for local communities and less for developers, secondly there must | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
be more incentives to decontaminate land that would have a huge effect | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
on the availability of house building in Birmingham and thirdly, | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
I want to see a real effort made to bring to fruition the plans to build | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
a garden city initiative in the Black Country that could provide up | :06:01. | :06:02. | |
to 45,000 homes, none of whom would need to be built on the green belt. | :06:03. | :06:11. | |
The Queen was that speech takes place at which the background of | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
agonisingly difficult but ultimately catastrophic situation in the Middle | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
East. The foursome the Apocalypse continue to ride through what was | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
Syria, a second world country. I remind out there are 11 million | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
souls on the move in a country of just over 20 million. 6 million | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
within the country and 5 million outside. The honourable lady for | :06:35. | :06:43. | |
Backley has produced a report friends of Syria the Bellas from the | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
benefits from his double expert advice and input. We recently | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
visited the circuit Syria border with the brilliant British Moslem | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
charities who I play tribute to today for the birds of what they're | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
doing and are just three key things that, for, that I want advocate. If | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
it is the must ensure that every child in a refugee camp, of all the | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
children that are refugees in Jordan and Lebanon get an education that | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
should be paid for by the rich European countries. If you look at | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
the position of Lebanon and Jordan today, these countries are quite | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
literally swamped by the number of refugees who are using their public | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
services and we must help out with that. I will happily give way. On | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
that point, it's worth reminding out that if the UK to the equivalent | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
percentage number of people it would be 70 million people into the UK. My | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
honourable friend is absolutely right. We must also keep refugees | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
and migrants as close as possible to the areas from which they have been | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
driven. Very few if any of these people will want to recruit Syria in | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
Europe, they want to return to the homes from which they have been | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
driven off under gunfire. We must see the EU Council hold tariffs on | :08:03. | :08:12. | |
goods from Lebanon and Jordan and industrial agriculture which is | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
still a subject of tariffs and has been no progress on the proposal in | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
2011 from the European Union to have a deep and cooperative free-trade | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
area arrangement. We need to encourage the international | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
committee to look ahead to the destruction of Syria, the Prime | :08:34. | :08:35. | |
Minister has already made clear that Britain will provide up to ?1 | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
billion of support for that reconstruction and we must ensure | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
that happens as swiftly as possible. For how much longer will the | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
international community tolerates the deliberate targeting of | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
hospitals by Russian military aircraft who have now hit more than | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
30 hospitals in Syria? Russia is a permanent member of the UN Security | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
Council, their shocking behaviour is an affront to international order | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
and almost certainly a war crime. Finally, I want to strongly support | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
what was said about human rights and the key pieces of legislation in the | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
Queen's speech by the former Attorney General and make honourable | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
friend for restless. And just make clear that in defeating Isil, it | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
will be defeated easily militarily but 90% is an ideological defeat | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
which will be very much more difficult. | :09:39. | :09:51. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I begin by congratulating my | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
honourable friend for his excellent speech. I'm sure all members of the | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
House it was an excellent way to begin his parliamentary career. I | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
want to focus my remarks on the buses Bill, it includes measures | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
that have long been argued for in political leaders in Greater | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
Manchester, but the Bill also contains seriously weaknesses which | :10:16. | :10:27. | |
show how these Tory members believes reflecting on fair deal. They failed | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
to give us the same powers to regulate our services other than | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
London. The decade the people of Greater Manchester and denied right | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
to have a fully integrated public transport system because of vested | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
interests. Of course we're very proud our metrolink in Greater | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
Manchester which was developed as a result of the vision of local | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
council leaders, often in the face of opposition from the Department | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
for Transport. The try transport arrangements are also flawed, with | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
the results being excessive fares, too many areas without the service | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
and a high debt burden. The people of Greater Manchester want and | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
deserve a world-class public transport system, which is | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
accessible, reliable and affordable, that is essential for jobs and | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
growth but also are environment and quality-of-life. Congestion is a | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
scourge of everyday life, with traffic jams, tailbacks and | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
unacceptable delays for motorists, especially during rush hour. | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
Unregulated bus services and an unreliable tram and train network do | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
not offer an attractive option for too many people. While these new | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
powers are welcome, we also need a new transport fund on a par with | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
London so we too can offer subsidised services to communities | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
that do not have adequate connectivity, develop orbital | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
schemes around Greater Manchester and enhance access to local | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
hospitals. We should not be penalised for rejecting congestion | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
charging, this was and is the settled democratic will of the | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
people of Greater Manchester. I believe five radical changes are | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
necessary. A price freeze for bus and metrolink fares, at least until | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
2020. The development of a smart ticketing system, so all tickets can | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
be used on buses, trams and local trains. A new transport fund on a | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
par with London, to support non-profitable routes were isolated | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
communities, easier access to hospital appointment prioritise new | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
orbital route to grant around Greater Manchester. Reduce fares for | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
young people to support transport to study and work. I also believe we | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
should have a publicly owned and publicly controlled Greater | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
Manchester bus company, which could bid for some or all franchises. The | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
fifth change is prohibited by the Bill, which is why I am today urging | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
the Labour front bench to move amendments to remove this | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
prohibition. If this is unsuccessful I will work with colleagues in | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
Greater Manchester to explore the possibility of developing a | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
not-for-profit co-operative organisation as an alternative. I | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
believe the vast majority of people feel we should have a publicly | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
owned, publicly controlled public transport system. Public transport | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
should be operated for the public good and in the public interest. | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
Real devolution would allow Greater Manchester to choose our own system, | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
that's why Labour must seek to amend this Bill and if this proves | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
unsuccessful, we in Greater Manchester should explore the | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
not-for-profit cooperative option. Thank you. | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. As one of those who helped secure the EU | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
referendum in the last Parliament, in opposition at the time, I very | :13:46. | :13:53. | |
much welcome the EU referendum, Mr Deputy Speaker. It represents, I | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
suggest, a seminal moment in our history. It allows us the | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
opportunity to lance the boil regarding our strained relationship | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
with the EU. If we vote to remain, we need to roll up our sleeves and | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
make the EU work better for us all. If we vote To leave I suggest we | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
need to maximise the potential before us. But it is also a seminal | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
point in another respect. The result will tell us much about how we see | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
ourselves and our place in the world. Do we have the confidence to | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
seek a better future outside the EU? I take issue with the opposition | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
front edge's view that somehow we see ourselves as lacking in | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
confidence, the weakling being kicked about on the beach, quite the | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
opposite. I am and I think we are a confident nation, but I happen to | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
believe that we could do so much better if we actually left the EU. | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
And that actually contradicts, in many respects, the remaining camp's | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
view. I would take an intervention. I am | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
grateful. Just to make the observation from Eurosceptic side it | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
is feared as a federal Europe. From our perspective something like a | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
federal Britain would be a massive step forward. I think it shows the | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
disparity between the British union and European Union from an SNP | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
perspective. The one thing I share with the SNP | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
is I think Project Fear was the wrong approach and I think we should | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
have painted a much more positive view of the union. That is my view | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
here. I think you can paint a very positive view with regards to if we | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
left. In fact, I would suggest it is remaining in the EU, an organisation | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
that is mired in on competitiveness, low growth and high unemployment. In | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
some countries use unemployment reaching 50%. That is the greater | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
danger. The EU's vaunting project of monetary union is a disaster, it has | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
forced posterity on to countries that really should not have been in | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
that position. Furthermore, its pursuit of fiscal union in defence | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
of that bodes ill for the future. Voting in is not a static option. | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
But may I suggest, Mr Deputy Speaker, that we have heard the | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
emergence of doom and gloom before. Some may remember it was broadly the | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
same group of people that predicted absolute disaster if we did not join | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
the euro. These same people are now suggesting it would be the very same | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
if we were to leave. One could go back with those forecasts. The last | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
time the Bank of England predicted an economic shock, and -1, prior to | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
this last estimate of Project Fear, was when we were considering leaving | :16:47. | :16:53. | |
the ER N. It transpired, actually, that we had a very long period of | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
economic growth following our exit, which just goes to show predictions | :16:58. | :17:05. | |
from the establishment perhaps not quite up to the mark. But can I | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
suggest in the two minutes that remain that often the criticism | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
levelled against us is we cannot paint a picture of how it would be | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
like, if we were to actually leave the EU. We are told we have no idea. | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
Of course there will be an element of uncertainty when you leave an | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
organisation like the EU. But we should remember we are a key player | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
in global diplomacy and security. Britain is also a member of more | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
international organisations, including a permanent seat at the | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
United Nations, than any other country. This is embracing a faster | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
growing wild, where the EU is becoming increasingly stuck in the | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
economic slow lane. Let me paint briefly in the two minutes that | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
remain the sort of picture I see if we leave. We would be able to | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
negotiate trade treaties ourselves. At the moment we can't, our hands | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
are tied by the EU, love to accommodate the special interests of | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
27 or 28 members. This means British firms and workers are missing out on | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
the benefits of potential trade deals with growing parts of the | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
world that are a myriad of trade opportunities, especially with the | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
faster growing economies outside the EU. Leaving the EU would allow us to | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
take advantage of them. There remains concerned about there being | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
a falloff in trade if we leave, again it doesn't stack up. We have a | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
massive trade deficit with the EU, it is in their interest to pursue | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
trade with us. Trade will continue, it always has. We trade with Europe, | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
not the EU. And even if they did try and cut us off, the World Trade | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
Organisation, which has teeth, would not allow that. 3% tariffs by the US | :18:52. | :18:59. | |
would prevail, you could lose that in a currency swing in a week, if | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
not shorter. Greater prosperity, I suggest. SMEs are bound to apply EU | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
regulations, but only 5% of businesses actually export to the | :19:13. | :19:14. | |
EU. How many more people could they employ from the dead weight and | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
irrelevant EU? Immigration, we say no to the rest of the world but yes | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
to the EU at the moment. That is not fair. The Australians have a point | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
system, let's treat everybody fairly and benefit from the skills around | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
the world. But we cannot do that at the moment. Ben is the ten billion | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
pounds that we could spend if we left the EU, that is the ?19 billion | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
we send and the ?9 billion that comes back by way of various | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
grounds. We would be temporary and pans up, what could we spend that | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
on? Many things. It also comes down to sovereignty, but I would say if | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
we put a mirror up against ourselves when we vote on the 23rd of June. | :20:01. | :20:11. | |
Office lead time is limited. There is one or two omissions as I can see | :20:12. | :20:21. | |
regarding the Queen's speech. Members will recall the debates we | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
have had over women's pensions, one would have thought something would | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
be in the Queen's Speech to address that anomaly. Some women feel they | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
are being discriminated against, and I think the Queen's Speech should | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
have addressed that. We have the other issue, there is a campaigner | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
going on at the moment regarding pharmacies and the cuts to | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
pharmacies by the national health budget. That could result in some | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
private, local pharmacies closing them. So much that the Government | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
are talking about involving local people. There is the whole issue of | :21:02. | :21:09. | |
bursaries. You will note most of these students are women, and women | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
appear to be disseminated again. Moving onto the European situation. | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
I was one of the ones in 1975 that actually campaigned against going | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
into Europe for a lot of good reason that that time. Mostly the labour | :21:24. | :21:31. | |
movements in Europe basically had no benefits for the trade union | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
movements at that time. We had campaigned up and down Coventry. I | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
remember trade union leaders coming to Coventry and essentially saying, | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
if you go in, you won't get out. But since then we have had the Dolores | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
speech which changed certain labour movements, when it talks about | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
social justice being introduced and social policies. But I think if we | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
were going to have a referendum, we should have had one when we taught | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
about the single market, because anybody knows if you go into a | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
single market, you have a single bank and a single currency. | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
Unfortunately the Government at that time said they were going to change | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
the agricultural policy, they didn't change the agricultural policy, they | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
signed us up to the single market and boasted about the rebate they | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
got. It was a very interesting scenario. There was another scenario | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
when there was a chance. Then we should have had a referendum and we | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
didn't have a referendum, and that was the Maastricht. I welcome the | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
fact we are now having a referendum, but you can see where there have | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
been other opportunities. I have changed my mind and I have already | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
said why I changed my mind. I can give you an example of one of the | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
reasons why I changed my mind. Nissan was interested in investing | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
in Coventry. They were going to locate their plant to Coventry, but | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
when Nissan discovered there was no leverage into Europe at that time, | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
they located to Sunderland and the people of Sunderland have done well | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
because Nissan has done well in Sunderland. That gives you a good | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
example of how you can change or mind when faced with reality. Of | :23:20. | :23:27. | |
course, one of the reasons people want to pull out of Europe is | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
because of this argument about red tape. But when you ask them to | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
define it, the only thing they can come up with is either issue is | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
about health and safety or labour relations. Any other reasons they | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
don't come up with them. In fact, the Leader of the House gave the | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
game away about a month ago in a televised interview when he was | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
pointedly asked, what you mean by red tape? He bluffed about health | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
and safety. This is one of the reasons why I think we should | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
certainly remain in Europe. It has been suggested the world would be | :24:06. | :24:13. | |
lovely outside Europe. People who argue tariffs in the United States | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
would only be 3%, I think you are wrong. When you trade with the | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
United states, particularly the South American market, you will pay | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
a higher tariff. Equally you will pay higher tariffs outside Europe, | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
but you will be expected to conform to the rules and traditions of | :24:30. | :24:30. | |
Europe. These are the half pints. With the referendum only one month | :24:31. | :24:45. | |
away, I support people to have their say but people must clearly see the | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
risks in the Labour market. Anti-discrimination, jobs growth, | :24:52. | :24:53. | |
and our place in the world are at stake. We have two University is in | :24:54. | :25:01. | |
my constituency who rely heavily on universe -- European membership, | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
European academics and European scientists, European technicians and | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
European students all pay... Mr Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
congratulate the member on taking his seat and also to endorse the | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
true beauty paid to his predecessor. Davis is a leading example of the | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
fact that you can be a genuinely nice guy in politics and still | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
succeed in politics and we will miss him. Now, the members of select | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
committees are as divided as any other groups on the question of | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
membership of the European Union and so it should go without saying that | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
in my remarks on the subject today, I am speaking solely for myself, and | :25:48. | :25:56. | |
my concern is that the fixation of the EU on creating a single European | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
defence and foreign policy may make future conflict more likely rather | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
than less. So why has Nato proved to be the most successful military | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
alliance in history? I think the answer is clear. It is the deterrent | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
effect of United States membership. Taken together with article five of | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
the Nato charter, according to which an attack on any member country will | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
be considered to be an attack on them all, this means that any | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
would-be aggressor must face the prospect of war with the world's | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
most powerful state, the United States, right from the outset. If | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
Germany had faith that prospect in 1914, not 1917, or in 1939, not late | :26:43. | :26:51. | |
1941, who knows but that those words might not have begun and all that | :26:52. | :26:59. | |
suffering might have been avoided. Now, in order reliably to deter | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
collective security must combine adequate power with the virtual | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
certainty that it will be brought into action if triggered by an act | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
of aggression. On both grounds, Nato succeeds and the European Union | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
fails as a collective security organisation. Since the US does not | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
belong to the EU, the latter can muster only a fraction of NATO's | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
deterrent military power. Nor can there be any certainty that the US | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
will respond to an attack involving EU member states outside the north | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
Atlantic alliance. By trying to create its own foreign policy and | :27:40. | :27:46. | |
its own military forces, which on typical European levels of defence | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
investment, will remain modest indefinitely, the EU risks reverting | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
to the uncertainties of the pre-NATO Europe. The Nato guarantee is a | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
solemn commitment to being willing to start world War three and a half | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
of a member country facing attack or invasion. Nato membership must not | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
be proffered lightly, nor extended to countries on the half of which | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
Article five of its charter is simply not credible. Where security | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
is concerned, it is dangerous folly to give promises and guarantees that | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
we are in no position to fulfil. And the EU needs to be particularly | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
careful in pursuing a policy, a foreign policy, that gives promises | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
of that sort. In terms of deterring an external threat, the EU adds | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
nothing to the exemplary role discharged by Nato. As for the | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
threat of EU members attacking each other, there is certainly no risk of | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
the members of the European Union going to war once again with each | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
other as long as they remain free, democratic and constitutional. And | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
that is because constitutional democracies do not attack one | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
another. Wars break out instead between dictatorships and other | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
dictatorships, or between dictatorships and democracies. I | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
give way. Is it not absurd to suggest that somehow piecing Europe | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
may be destabilised by the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the EU? | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
The fact is that until our membership in 1973, Europe managed | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
it for 28 years not to go to war with itself. Well, indeed, and my | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
honourable friend anticipates the point that I was just going to make, | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
which is that if you are talking about the internal threat of war | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
between the members of the EU, as long as they remain democratic and | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
constitutional, there is not the slightest chance of them going to | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
war with each other, but if they lose that element of popular | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
democracy in their constitutions, then all bets are off. We heard | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
warnings giving today about the rise of the far right in some of these EU | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
countries. Why is the far right, the extreme right, the anti-immigration | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
right, why is it on the rise? It is on the rise because people feel that | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
they are being to some extent disenfranchised and the fate of | :30:24. | :30:25. | |
their country is being decided instead by people who they have not | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
elected to power, and whom they cannot remove. By trying to build a | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
supra national stake in Europe, in the absence of a democratic mandate, | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
the EU runs the risk of sowing the seeds of exactly the sort of future | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
conflict that it seeks to abolish, and I conclude, Mr Deputy Speaker, | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
by simply saying that I know that more voices have been raised in this | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
chamber today in favour of remain than leave, but I am not | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
disheartened by that because I know that all those people campaigning to | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
leave are out there at the grassroots level, ensuring that when | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
Independence Day comes on the 23rd of June, the right position will be | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
taken by the majority of the British people. Thank you, Mr Deputy | :31:14. | :31:21. | |
Speaker. While I am reluctant to disagree with the chairman of my | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
Defence Select Committee on this occasion I couldn't agree with him | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
more profoundly. I have to say that I do agree that our defence and | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
security policies must be embodied in the valleys that they are | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
established to defend. -- devalues. There is no trade-off between | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
security and the and principles on which a free and open political | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
society is based. I think on that we can agree. I think we can agree that | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
only a defence policy governed by rules established in laws will | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
retain integrity and credibility in the fluid and fickle world of | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
international relations that we are now mired in. But I was disappointed | :32:04. | :32:13. | |
that the Queen's speech missed an opportunity to provide clarity, | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
particularly in relation to the legal consequences of the | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
Government's new policy in relation to the use of unmanned aerial | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
vehicles. Especially given in September last year the Prime | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
Minister announced that an unarmed aerial vehicle had been used for the | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
targeted killing outside the armed conflict of a British citizen who | :32:36. | :32:44. | |
had been fighting for Daesh. Since then, the Government has been called | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
upon to clarify the legal basis for using you a V -- UAVs in this way. | :32:51. | :33:04. | |
The analysis was criticised and the committee were accused of adopting a | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
blunt approach to the application of UAV strikes abroad. Clearly, there | :33:10. | :33:17. | |
is divided opinion on this, and I feel the Queen's speech missed the | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
opportunity to clarify and to make clear that the fog of law in | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
relation to our defence is clarified. Equally, in 2015, the S D | :33:25. | :33:37. | |
S R, the Government announced a ?100 billion investment in weapons and | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
equipment, in part to compensate for the dire cuts imposed five years | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
earlier. In particular, when they cut the RAF Nimrod patrol unit. Now, | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
instead of actually going to an open contract to replace the Nimrod with | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
a competitive tender, the Government agreed to purchase aircraft from | :33:58. | :34:08. | |
Boeing in a deal worth ?2 billion. I thought this was a clear snub of the | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
UK aerospace industry, which I know members opposite, like me, share a | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
huge respect for. This is an industry that employs 80,000 people | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
and annually contributes ?9 billion to the UK economy. I will give away | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
to someone who shares my love of the aeronautical industry. I wholly | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
support what she's saying about the industry, but can I do say, as | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
minister at the time involved in the decision the Nimrod, the fact is it | :34:38. | :34:46. | |
was ?750 million over budget, it was nine years late, and it still wasn't | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
fit for purpose. I am afraid, it was a project which had to be scrapped, | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
but we have should have replaced it. I totally disagree with the | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
gentleman on that issue, but I want to move on to the P8, because the | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
MoD has repeatedly evaded all of my attempts to get information on that | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
subject. How many jobs will be generated by this P8 contract? No | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
answer. We'll be P8 "Carrying British trapeze -- torpedoes? No | :35:17. | :35:27. | |
answer. The MoD's answers to parliamentary questions have | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
deteriorated. Members of industry have been left in the dark. For too | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
long, the MoD has used commercial confidentiality to hide the true | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
cost to UK industry and to jobs to single source contracting. The | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
single source regulation officers revealed that the MoD's use of | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
non-competitive defence procurement represents 53% of the new contracts | :35:55. | :36:02. | |
in 2014 and 2015 alone. Approximately ?8.3 billion was spent | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
on single source contracts, this figure is set to rise. How many of | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
those companies are non-UK? How many have included no offset work to UK | :36:12. | :36:20. | |
companies? The house, the public, and our defence industries deserve | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
to know. I know it, Mr Deputy Speaker, I have to raise a campaign | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
that I feel very passionately about. And I am disappointed once again | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
that it was not in the Queen's speech, and that is to include | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
veterans and reservists in the census. It is absolutely essential | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
that we know how many veterans we have and where they are. How are we | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
going to put in place and effective response to the community covenant | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
if we do not know how many veterans we have in each of our | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
constituencies? I also feel it is a great pity that the Government | :36:59. | :37:05. | |
Renate on its promise to introduce a Waw Powers Act. What I do support, | :37:06. | :37:16. | |
though, is in making sure that Bridgend does not lose valuable | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
jobs, particularly those in the Ford factory, where his constituents and | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
my work. This factory won a bid against Romania, Spanish, and | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
Russian factories to build a new Dragon engine in Wales. That is what | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
Europe does for us. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I spent 20 years as | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
a human rights lawyer, for much of that time had represented the Prison | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
Service. I remember when I was young and keen but I was at the cutting | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
edge of human rights law. With hindsight, cases came and went and | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
quite frankly not a lot changed. Human rights law hadn't in itself | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
reform to prisons, although it did produce a lot of work for lawyers. | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
What has changed is the spotlight shone on prisons by the leadership | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
shown by the Prime Minister and in his speech in February. This was the | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
first speech by a Prime Minister on prisons in my working lifetime, and | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
the reforming zeal the Secretary of State, the family centred focus of | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
the prisons minister, and the determination of the Minister for | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
family justice that women prisoners and their children should not be | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
left behind. The Department has shown bravery in getting rid of | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
barriers, but physical in terms of old prisons and structural in the | :38:31. | :38:38. | |
way, in the surely outdated idea of categorisation. Yet, the vision is a | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
compassionate one, it is also founded on sound conservative | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
principles. Prisoners are our neighbours. It is to our communities | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
that they return on the lease, and in which about half of them reoffend | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
during their first year outside. It is in all other interests that we | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
deal with this. It is too expensive, financially and emotionally, to | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
throw away the key. So is this a moment for those of us that care | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
about prison reform to be breaking out the pooch? Sadly not. There is | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
no doubt that prisons are more dangerous places now than they have | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
been for many years. The Justice Committee, on which I am honoured to | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
serve, published a report recently, which makes clear the extent of the | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
problem. Assaults are up by 20%. Suicides and murderers are up | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
substantially, and the number of arson attacks come and think how | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
frightening a fire is in prison, are up by 57%. | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
The response to the report was characteristically robust. He has | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
found extra money to deal with some aspects of it. He will ensure that | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
in future, the figures that we really need to measure progress, | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
such as the number of hours in a day spent out of the cell are available | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
to us. But there remain to major obstacles to reform. The first of | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
these, as identified by the member for a the numbers of those in are | :40:09. | :40:20. | |
impeding progress. Delivery of a prisoner to the classroom door is to | :40:21. | :40:28. | |
difficult. Prisoners are put in cells with people for the same gang, | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
but it does nothing for their readers that that rehabilitation. | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
More prison officers will help, but they have to be good one. The | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
Ministry has done its best, and there has been a net increase of 530 | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
officers since the last recruitment push, but experienced staff take | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
years of training and more effort must be done to retain them. What is | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
needed is a push on diversions from prisons, the sad rather than merely | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
bad, and the vast majority of women and young adults should never go | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
through the prison gates. Eight working group is looking at models | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
of problem-solving reports, where contact between a judge and those a | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
success -- pose a sentence is regular. Trials of these courts must | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
go ahead as soon as possible. We saw some excellent examples when we | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
visited the US recently on the Justice committee. These are not the | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
easy options. It is much harder to give up substance abuse than it is | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
to spend time in a cell. Restorative justice may have a role. The second | :41:35. | :41:44. | |
issue is the exponential use of new psychoactive substances. This stuff | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
should not be confused with cannabis. Recently, I was told about | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
an incident where a gizmo was smoking spice. For officers had to | :41:57. | :42:08. | |
be hospitalised as a result of inhalation. They have become the | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
currency of choice in prisons. The criminalisation of their possession, | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
which comes into force this week, will help, but real resources must | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
be put into testing techniques, and searching every often, if we are | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
serious -- is serious about holding back the tidal wave of these drugs. | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
In summary, these holding policies are desperately needed. I rise to | :42:33. | :42:42. | |
address the issue of human rights. I am not as reassured because it is | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
the government's devoured intention to introduce a British built our | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
Price, -- British bill of rights. How ever, I do have good news for | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
those who want a safe Human Rights Act. It is not possible for this | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
parliament to repeal the Human Rights Act without the consent of | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
the Scottish Parliament, and given the make-up of the present Scottish | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
parliament, is no question that consent being granted. Last year, | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
two years during independence referendum, Scotland was not done a | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
matter given the nature of the devolved | :43:29. | :43:36. | |
settlement, the Scottish parliament is now going to be in a position to | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
lead the United Kingdom by saving the Human Rights Act for the whole | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
of the UK. I am grateful for the woman giving way. I think the | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
Conservatives should be shy at themselves, and they should take the | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
ownership of it. It was a Conservative MP, one of the lead | :43:59. | :44:05. | |
drafters. It was a response to the prosecutor. The Conservatives have a | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
lot to do with it, and it would be tough for them to change it. My | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
honourable friend is absolute right. Moving into more modern times, when | :44:17. | :44:26. | |
the human rights act was passed in 1998, that would be a flow of human | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
rights across the UK, rather than the singing. Devolved parliaments | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
could go further. In Scotland, we have chosen to do that. Complying | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
with European Convention is not the limit of our ambitions. In fact, I | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
would say it is the key challenge for progressive governments, not to | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
find ways to avoid human rights responsibilities, but rather to find | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
ways to embed human rights across different areas of social policy. We | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
have heard the Ottoman previously in this house that we should not turn | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
our backs on Saudi Arabia. Just to clarify, we are calling for an arms | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
embargo. But we must ensure that we never put more importance on trade | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
that we do on human rights. Does my honourable friend agree that we all | :45:14. | :45:25. | |
hope that Saudi Arabia can move their human rights forward? I was | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
pleased to hear the Right Honourable member for Beaconsfield reminders | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
earlier that the signal that the British government sent out by | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
withdrawing from the convention is a single -- signalled that adversely | :45:44. | :45:51. | |
sends out across Russia. If you want to hold the rest of the world high | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
standards, we must espouse the same high standards ourselves rather than | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
watering them down. Embarking on a course of so-called reform is never | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
a good idea unless you have a good about what you want to do and what | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
you want to do it. Since the UK Government announced their intention | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
to bring forward a bill of rights in the Queen speech last year, we have | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
seen quite a great deal of confusion on the government benches about what | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
they want to do. The Justice Secretary has appeared several times | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
before Parliament to committees to try and explain why the government | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
are pursuing so-called reform of the Hugo -- Human Rights Act. Sometimes | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
it is informed by your scepticism and. Sometimes, it is just tweaking | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
that is needed to the Human Rights Act. Both he and his human right | :46:45. | :46:52. | |
minister had said that they want to stay in the convention. But the Home | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
Secretary recently gave a speech way she was pretty clear that we should | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
leave the European Convention of human rights. I would suggest that | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
this confusion and lack of clarity does not bode well for the | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
government's plans on human rights. But the Scottish parliament will be | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
happy to ride to the rescue. Because in all three separate devolution | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
arrangements, the Human Rights Act is a matter of reserve for the rest | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
-- Westminster government. But it means that if this Parliament | :47:23. | :47:39. | |
wants to legislate in the field of human rights, it will require the | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
consent of the Scottish parliament. And the First Minister Nicola | :47:46. | :47:47. | |
Sturgeon has made it very clear that there is no consent being given. | :47:48. | :47:55. | |
White that consent would have to be given is the still convention, which | :47:56. | :48:03. | |
is in statutory form. On the 11th of November 2014, the Scottish | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
Parliament voted by 100 votes to ten in favour of a motion supporting the | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
Human Rights Act, and expressing confidence in it. I believe the | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
Northern Irish simply did the same thing. The Northern Ireland assembly | :48:20. | :48:30. | |
has recognised the vital importance of the Human Rights Act to the Good | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
Friday agreement, and that is something that we should never have | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
overlooked. The Welsh assembly has also passed a motion with | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
overwhelming support back in November of last year, stating that | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
the Welsh assembly opposed any attempt to repeal the Human Rights | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
Act, and I believe the Welsh First Minister has argued that the | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
scrapping would make the UK to like a banana republic. I could not have | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
put it better myself. There has been an election since the Scottish | :49:02. | :49:09. | |
Parliament gave its backing, that was won by the SNP. The parties that | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
support the Human Rights Act in the Scottish Parliament far outweigh | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
those that don't. But we are not sure what the position of the | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
Scottish Conservatives are. Their leader Ruth Davidson gave an | :49:25. | :49:31. | |
interview to pink News, saying she was opposed to the withdrawal of the | :49:32. | :49:39. | |
European convention on human rights. But she has been silent on the | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
repeal of the Human Rights Act. The Tories took great care to distance | :49:43. | :49:50. | |
themselves from the UK Government. But she will not be able to duck the | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
issue for ever, because my colleague Ben MacPherson has launched a motion | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
in the Scottish Palm and calling on all MSP is to make clear that the | :50:04. | :50:10. | |
Scottish parliament would not repeal the Human Rights Act. Even if she | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
ends up siding with her colleagues as usually does, when push comes to | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
shove, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of members of | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
the Scottish Parliament want to keep the Human Rights Act, so we will | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
keep it to the whole of the United Kingdom. Great news that the | :50:27. | :50:38. | |
Scottish Tories doubled their representation in Scotland. I | :50:39. | :50:48. | |
personally take the view that the government should limit its | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
responsibilities and do rather less. At the TV welcome the proposal to | :50:55. | :51:01. | |
give local authorities the power to retain their business rates, and I | :51:02. | :51:11. | |
support what was said about prisons. The honourable men before | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
when I found but we were spending ?25,000 per year just locking people | :51:19. | :51:26. | |
up, and they let nothing, I think this government is right to try and | :51:27. | :51:34. | |
bring education into art prisons. I wish to concentrate on four issues. | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
The proposal to speed up the adoption process, the proposal to | :51:40. | :51:47. | |
defeat radicalisation. An adoption, I welcome the measure in principle. | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
I do understand that social services are caught up between a rock and a | :51:53. | :51:59. | |
hard place. But I myself witnessed Surrey County Council's behaviour | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
regarding to young people in my constituency. Each was represented | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
by law firms, -- I was threatened with contempt | :52:07. | :52:15. | |
proceedings for trying to intervene on behalf of my constituents. | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
If half the energy expended by the council had been saved, things would | :52:22. | :52:38. | |
On radicalisation, principal threat we face is not generic terrorism. We | :52:39. | :52:49. | |
have to be honest about it. It is specific, it is Islamic | :52:50. | :52:51. | |
fundamentalism. That is what threatens our country. Young people | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
brought up in Britain and taught in our schools are never less being | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
indoctrinated by Islamic fundamentalists and being encouraged | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
to take part in medieval barbarity under the name of Islam. The Muslim | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
community must root out that evil, but I will await to see what the | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
government produces in the wake of legislation before making a final | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
judgment. I think the member for Camberwell and Peckham set out some | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
of the challenges the government will face in defining this. Earlier | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
this year, the government mooted the proposal | :53:30. | :53:37. | |
whilst it is of course vital that the gunmen takes action against | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
people that do harm to our society, regulating groups like Sunday | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
schools is absurd. This produces a huge administrative burden. It will | :53:48. | :53:56. | |
be and infringement on liberty. Furthermore, such extremist groups | :53:57. | :54:04. | |
would not register. It is unworkable and a danger to our freedoms. On the | :54:05. | :54:13. | |
wider issue, I think it would be perverse in extreme to | :54:14. | :54:27. | |
it is buys is turning the other cheek and love my neighbour. I do | :54:28. | :54:35. | |
believe a society of Christianity is under threat. Only 52% of people | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
regard themselves as Christian. If we do not, we will create a vacuum | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
that will be filled by others. I have never been able to document | :54:44. | :54:54. | |
this, but Ira member of my family telling me, as we come from a Jewish | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
background, that when Polish immigrants began inserting on | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
cleaves to bring some of the anti-Semitic traditions from their | :55:02. | :55:08. | |
homeland of the past to our homeland of the present, the Labour | :55:09. | :55:11. | |
Government of the day made a very firm statement about this. There was | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
nothing discriminatory about focusing on that particular problem. | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
You have to focus on the problem is the totalitarian doctrine is being | :55:20. | :55:26. | |
allowed. I am grateful to my right honourable friend for that | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
intervention. If I turn now to defence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I did | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
raise with the Foreign Secretary the issue of how the Government | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
calculates defence expenditure, and I accept that the expenditure we are | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
making at the moment fits with the Nato guidelines. However, the fact | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
is that we've only met the 2% by shifting money from other Government | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
departments into defence, and I do not think that that is the way to | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
proceed and I very much hope that we will see a real increase in defence | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
expenditure in the coming years so that we can proceed in particular | :56:00. | :56:07. | |
with the new combat frigates for which I had some responsibility in | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
the Department. Of course, I welcome the renewal of the deterrent, which | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
I know my right honourable friend will also, but let's get on with it. | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
On Europe, and its determination to frighten the public, the Government | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
stands accused of talking down the British economy. If leaving would | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
produce such dire outcomes, why on earth are we holding a referendum at | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
all? Why did the Prime Minister readily acknowledge that the country | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
can survive outside of the EU? What has changed? We flourished under the | :56:39. | :56:41. | |
Macmillan Government. People were able to move around the continent | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
for work, as my own father did in the mid-19 50s when he weakly | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
committed -- commuted to Hamburg where he established a Jonsson 's | :56:49. | :56:56. | |
company. These are a few -- these fears which are being raised | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
deliberately to frighten the British public. We should have confidence in | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
our ability to the EU and we will be able to prosper as an independent | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
nation on our own. It might have been better, Madam Deputy Speaker, | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
to the current EU debate if the Government had taken some time to | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
sketch out the vision for Europe of those Tories committed to remaining, | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
but I guess that couldn't happen because the truth is this is a | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
cobbled together a programme, a coalition Queen's speech of pro-and | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
anti-European Tories, and those pro and antidepressant minister. He said | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
in the debate that economic security always comes first, and that is | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
obviously why he has plunged us into a referendum with the Government | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
tearing itself apart while he is running around the country telling | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
anyone who will listen of the catastrophic economic consequences | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
of leaving. This is a balanced decision, a choice between two | :58:01. | :58:10. | |
visions. -- and unbalanced decision. We turn to an idyllic 1950s and one | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
where we have to accept without evidence that alone we can be a land | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
of milk and honey, or there is the reality for our car industry, our | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
four -- our food and drink manufacturers, the science and | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
innovation budgets, a future where economic prosperity is intrinsically | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
linked to our membership of the union. I have come to the conclusion | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
that the interests of our children and grandchildren lie in being part | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
of that successful trading block and that it is also the best way to | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
guarantee many other rights and freedoms. But it doesn't have to be | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
an inflexible union, one that is blind to new concerns. It needs more | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
democracy and a better balance between the interests of the | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
domestic state and the wider union. When there is a significant influx | :59:02. | :59:06. | |
of people into parts of this country, it can put a strain on | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
school places and other services. The solution is a European migration | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
fund, so that those areas receive additional funding to help them cope | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
with any added pressures. In terms of the proposed bill of rights, it | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
is hard not to see yet another measure to appease the Prime | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
Minister's enemies. We already have a Human Rights Act, based on a | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
convention drawn up by British lawyers and adjudicated on in our | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
courts. What rights is it that we currently have that the Government | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
wants us to lose? If there is to be a focus on human rights, what about | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
a bit more respect for the rights of disabled people? What about a | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
measure which acknowledges the unfair assessment arrangements | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
currently two deprive them of payments they rightly deserve and | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
the lack of legal aid to challenge these decisions at tribunal is? What | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
about some action to address the rights of those being denied access | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
to fertility services because of the bungled reorganisation of the NHS? | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
Why are there no national standards for IVF in England and Wales? Why do | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
ministers stand by while CC is excluded cobbled on the basis of | :00:25. | :00:31. | |
invented moral criteria and ignore in ICT criteria. What about the | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
human rights of these couples? What about a signal from the Government | :00:37. | :00:44. | |
that is going to change that? In terms of children and the social | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
work Bill, we have another mismatch of what now passes for Tory policy, | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
so we see some welcome measures with a promised covenant for care | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
leavers, which ought to be applauded because this is one group who suffer | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
almost as much from the intervention of the state as they do through the | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
circumstances that led to them being wrought into care. They are deprived | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
of education, more likely to end up in prison or in receipt of | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
psychiatric care. Welcomes all these changes are, they are company by | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
changes to the regulation and training of social workers. How many | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
attempts will be Government need before it thinks it has got this | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
right? We won't get better social work by trying to reduce social | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
workers to the status of some kind of functional technicians, carrying | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
around a manual of dos and don'ts based on the latest ministerial | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
fantasies. And on the option, we have a definitive piece of | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
legislation last year, but here they are back with another bite at the | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
cherry in an effort to make the courts do their bidding. In terms of | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
the investigatory Powers Bill, we need a modern framework of powers | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
available to the police and security services, but we won't protect our | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
country by turning it into a surveillance state. And on policing | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
and crime Bill, why don't the police and crime commissioners look at the | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
CPS as well as police complaints, because that is what many of my | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
constituents are complaining about today? Thank you, Madam debit is | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
bigger. I am delighted to take advantage of this debate to talk | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
about one of the issues raised in the gracious speech concerning | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
reforms to our prison system. Like my right honourable friend who spoke | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
so eloquently earlier, I welcome these reforms which will ensure | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
individuals have an opportunity for a second chance. That will give | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
prison governors unprecedented freedom. That will ensure prisoners | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
receive a better education and that will improve mental health care | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
within the criminal justice system. Our prison system has long suffered | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
with high numbers of repeat offenders. And I firmly believe that | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
if we are to change this, then rehabilitation must be improved. We | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
cannot allow offenders to get stuck within a constant cycle of feeling | :03:06. | :03:07. | |
they're a little options available to them but two we will send one | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
they have been released. I would like to thank my right honourable | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
friend from Camberwell and Peckham who chairs the joint committee for | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
human rights and who has afforded me the opportunity to be the raconteur | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
on mental health to the joint committee. As part of this rule, I | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
have been studying the recent report released by Lord Harris on | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
self-inflicted death in prison from prisoners aged 18 to 24. We are | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
seeing rising levels of suicide and self harm in prisons, particularly | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
amongst young males. This is just so tragic, and of course prisons should | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
be a place of punishment, but within this, we need to be caring for the | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
mental health of those who just cannot look after themselves. I | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
recently visited a local presence of the challenges that face the prison | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
system today and anyone who visits a prison can rest assured that it is | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
not a holiday. It is not a three meal a day place. Sadly, a young man | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
died in the prison recently where I visited. He was found dead in his | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
cell and an enquiry into his death found systematic failings of neglect | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
contributing to his death, including a lack of access to medical help. | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
This is just so sad and raises a question of what more we should be | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
doing to help individuals in these situations. Through my research and | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
also -- I am also shocked by the high level of violence that exist in | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
the prison system and despite all of the evidence, there is still very | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
much a gang culture that exists in the prisons and a hierarchy. Like my | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
honourable friend for Banbury, I recognised part of this problem is | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
also major availability of legal highs and despite the efforts from | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
prison wardens, the challenge of preventing these drugs from entering | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
the prison system is proving incredibly difficult. For me, a | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
clear way of tackling this is to ensure that prisoners have a good, | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
strong leadership, and therefore, I very much welcome the creation of | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
reform prisons. Driving a revolution in education and training and health | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
care and security for prisons led by governors. We must start our basics | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
and do all we can to change the environment within the prison | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
system. Instead of allowing them to focus on the negatives, let's | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
reverse this cycle and provide prisoners with a positive sense of | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
purpose. Like my honourable friend from Aldershot, I think we need to | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
be offering improvement in education, careers advice, and | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
allowing prisoners to learn skills whilst they're in prison which could | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
improve their opportunities. The mental state of prisoners can be | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
extremely difficult to manage. And for many, the realisation that | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
spending years behind bars is over whelming. Of course, they should not | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
have committed the crime in the first place. However, if we use this | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
opportunity to support their way back to an active role in society, | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
then surely this must be a good thing? Today, just one in six leave | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
prison with an education and training placement. And last year, | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
the Prison Reform Trust issued figures that showed 47% of prisoners | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
had no qualifications. So is it any wonder that they end up reoffending, | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
when there is little opportunity available for them to be productive | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
once they are released? It is so easy to get stuck in a cycle where | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
individuals feel opportunities that they have once they are released are | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
extremely limited. If we can break this cycle, if we can give skills | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
that can be readily translated into the workplace outside prisons, then | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
hopefully we will be going a long way to improving the chance of | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
prisoners to be rehabilitated rather than to people you offenders. The | :06:42. | :06:51. | |
referendum on the 23rd of June will, of course, shape the future of | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
international relations with this country for probably the rest of | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
this century. Whatever the result, there will be serious consequences. | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
The support of the Select Committee produced a recent report which one | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
of its conclusions was that leaving the EU could result in the UK | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
becoming a smaller or less influential international player, | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
especially in the context of increasing pressure from rising | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
powers on the post-1945 global economic and governance framework. | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
We see those rising powers in Asia at this moment. The Americans have | :07:35. | :07:43. | |
just agreed to sell arms to Vietnam. Massive territorial disputes between | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
China and almost all of its neighbours, the Philippines, Japan, | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
as well as Vietnam. The rising powers of Asia and South East Asia | :07:57. | :08:05. | |
believe, and they are right, that the global institutions that we did | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
so much to shape in the immediate post-World War II period, do not | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
reflect the growing economic importance of the other parts of the | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
world. That means that if we are to leave the European Union, the | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
British permanent seat on the UN Security Council, which is currently | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
defended by our 27 EU partners, who believe that Britain and France, who | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
have worked consistently together in the UN system to protect European | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
interests, that British seat will no longer be seen as protecting | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
European interests. France will have that role, but we will not. And so | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
the rising pressure... Yes, I will take an intervention, but very | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
briefly. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. I was | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
under the impression that the EU were seeking to take France and the | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
UK position in the Security Council and act as one, not the way you | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
presented it. He is wrong. The reality is that there is a general | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
acceptance at this moment, grudgingly in some cases, but | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
nevertheless that the UK and France do work collectively. They do | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
consult their European partners within the UN system, but that may | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
well be put in jeopardy if we leave, and there would be big questions for | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
the future. We are in a world, and that -- | :09:34. | :09:47. | |
rusher, nationalist assertiveness over the Putin regime, and invasion | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
of other territories, not just Ukraine but George, and cyber | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
warfare against Nato members in the Baltic states, aircraft trying to go | :09:57. | :10:05. | |
close to or enter airspace, and of course, we have seen the buying of | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
political parties, including the front National in France, and | :10:13. | :10:21. | |
Putin's propaganda channel, a distorted view of what is going on | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
around the world, and never refers to internal Russian problems. We see | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
this today. Some countries around the world have started to take | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
action with regards to the money laundering and the other activities | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
that have gone on from Russia. I hope that the bills that will come | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
out this Queen 's speech will lead a more robust action against the money | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
that is being put into our financial institutions from the technocracy in | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
Moscow. There is the evidence of William Browne before the home | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
affairs select committee. That needs to be looked at by honourable | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
members and studied in terms of the in which | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
one Russian man died in a very mysterious circumstances, and the US | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
Congress has passed the law, and last week, human rights has been | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
mentioned in this debate. In the US, the house of representatives, they | :11:39. | :11:49. | |
agreed to have a global human rights accountability act to extend the | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
sanctions against the people involved in corrupt activities, and | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
also to those globally to abuse human rights. And that, frankly, is | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
an interesting concept, because if you are not prepared, and for good | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
reasons, you do not want to stop trading with certain countries, but | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
nevertheless, you wish to target the individuals that carry out human | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
rights abuses, maybe we should consider a similar proposal in this | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
Parliament. In the time left to me, I would like to highlight one other | :12:21. | :12:28. | |
area, which is the fact that the European Union provides a democratic | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
vision. The Shadow Foreign Secretary referred to the peace and | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
cooperation we have had since the Second World War. But we also act as | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
a magnet for those countries coming out of author Terry and is, those | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
countries that came out of fascism, those countries that came out of | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
domination and were in the Warsaw Pact before. We need to maintain | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
those standards, and if Britain leaves the EU, we were weak -- we | :12:59. | :13:11. | |
will weaken that recess. -- process. It is a real pleasure to speak on | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
this Queen 's speech which at its heart is focusing on how we can | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
improve the comic will being and growth for everyone in the country. | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
What I want to focus on is the security that we have two | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
established for this country, but throughout the world. I want to | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
start by talking about the international development budget. It | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
is committed to once again in the Queens speech. It is something that | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
I wholeheartedly support. Not simply for the moral obligation I believe | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
we have as the fifth richest nation in the world to help the poorest | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
nations in society, but equally, because at the heart of it, it is a | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
very true conservative idea of almost investing for our own | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
futures, and gaining from that. We take the advantages of India, which | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
now trade with us. A country which we have poured much money into | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
through the years. But equally and fundamentally, it is where the money | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
is going in today's hotspots around the world. Hotspots almost | :14:15. | :14:22. | |
undermines how important the areas. Areas of real human tragedy. We have | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
put more money into situations in the refugee camps around Syria than | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
all of the other European nations added together. It is 0.7% of our | :14:32. | :14:39. | |
income, and yet, I have people who make representations to me, who say | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
that that ?12 billion should be spent on other things, like | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
repairing the roads, better schooling and nurses. All lovable | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
things, but I would argue that if we give in to those demands, as it is a | :14:56. | :15:05. | |
percentage of income, that would disappear. Because as I intervened | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
on my right honourable friend earlier on, the proportion of people | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
that have gone into Lebanon's refugees camps, will be the | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
equivalent of 17 million people entering the United Kingdom. That | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
gives you an impression of the country's pressures. It is right | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
that the UK is there to help support countries like Jordan, Lebanon and | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
Turkey. Be under no illusion. If we withdrew our support, they would not | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
be able to cope with the refugee crisis that is enveloping. And they | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
will go to the next place, which is central Europe. And they will move | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
across the Mediterranean, as hundreds of thousands had, into | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
Central Europe. And this is not an argument about the EU, but over 40% | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
is with European countries. If those economies are struggling because of | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
the influx of refugees, then they simply will not have the economic | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
and trade with us. That will inevitably lead onto strength in our | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
own economy and a reduction in GDP, and the 0.7% we have saved in not | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
spending this money elsewhere suddenly becomes suddenly becomes | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
0.81% reduction in GDP. That many still does not exist, and we have | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
turned our backs on the poorest on society in the world. We are a proud | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
nation, and that is the heart of the security aspect of today's debate. | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
It is not just about security, it is about the events around the world | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
affect is right at home, such as the cost of living, and the prices we | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
pay in the shops. It is directly related, and we cannot turn our back | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
on these issues. In the brief time I have left, I just want to say this. | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
We know on the 6th of July, the Chilcott report is going to be | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
published, and we have read articles as to what will be in that paper. | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
Mistakes were made with Iraq, mistakes were made going into the | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
war, during the war and after the war, and that will be addressed. But | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
we must not allow that to be the shield that we automatically hide | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
behind when talking about intervening in other areas and other | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
conflicts. The world is the first place. I have that I have had Libya | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
mentioned today, and how much the intervention in Libya may have been | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
catastrophic, but Gaddafi was on his way to Benghazi to slaughter those | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
people, and the idea that would not have tapped Abbie not intervened, | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
and the idea that diets would not be in Benghazi, -- IAS, that is | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
fanciful, and is living proof in Syria, that they would come in. So I | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
hope that on the 6th of July, it is not used as a shield. It was the | :18:08. | :18:15. | |
best of times, it was the worst of times. It was the way -- it was the | :18:16. | :18:29. | |
we had nothing before us. Whereas that might not be a fair analysis of | :18:30. | :18:44. | |
the Queens speech,, it has been loaded and applauded as a | :18:45. | :18:46. | |
progressive programme for this country, for the ensuing year, and | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
for others, it is a huge let down. Let me, if I can, focus my comments | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
on security here at home. I have to say, briefly, in relation to the | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
proposed bill of rights that there is an incredibly bizarre sense of | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
hypersensitivity around this proposal. As if for some sense of | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
populism, a sacred text is going to be burned on the altar of populism | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
in this country, it is not. I wish people would sit back, would analyse | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
the proposals when they come forward, and then assess, do these | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
proposals are properly enshrine the underlying principles of the | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
European Convention on human rights? They are just saying, it is not the | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
Human Rights Act, it is not good enough for us. The proposals build | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
on the European Convention of human rights. We don't know, we have not | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
seen them, and we don't know, but we do have, in the contents of the | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
Queens speech, debate. The ECA chart will underpin all that comes through | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
the proposals, but if in doing so we establish a level of supremacy of | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
this Parliament, if we establish supremacy of our Supreme Court, if | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
we underpin support and expand those principles and foundations that we | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
have benefited from, not just in the last 50-60 years, but in the last | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
centuries, going back to the Magna Carta, which was built into the Bill | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
of Rights, which was built into the convention, which was built into the | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
Human Rights Act. If we cannot build upon it, there is nothing to be | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
there for. C the proposals. Let's see what we are presented with. The | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
criminal finances bill is something that I look forward to scrutinising. | :20:46. | :20:53. | |
Many members of this house will note this go Topal -- paramilitaries. | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
Ireland a prominent paramilitary in my own constituency, he given his | :21:01. | :21:08. | |
involvement in such pursuits is no longer with us. He used to pay | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
premium for bookies dockets, so it would hold the boards of cash from | :21:16. | :21:24. | |
his drug dealing. I do want to highlight the biggest disappointment | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
of this section of the Queens speech. That is the failure to | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
categorically refuse to bring forward proposals for the | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
registration of out-of-school education at seven. I have read the | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
bill, and the Home Secretary knows my views. Given the extremism we | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
have faced, that is a missed opportunity. In Westminster Hall, | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
and I have seen the proposals, when she proposed the disclosure in | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
barring service, that was good proposal, and I am glad that that | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
forms part of the gracious speech and the government's plans, but | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
still, we see that there is a routine proposed, and I would love | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
to know, and will that -- will that include the Ofsted appointment, | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
would that include the regulation of out-of-school education settings? If | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
it does, it does not Ali not only reach the Conservative Party | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
manifesto, of sweeping authoritarian measures that | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
it would be far too wide and far too shallow, we need a measure that is | :22:37. | :22:46. | |
both deep and narrowly focused. So I would like to hear in response to | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
this debate today that there will be a consideration of the segregation. | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
You know the fears of six hours accumulation, and how that can be | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
easily amassed within a church setting, such as going to Sunday | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
school. Please take that opportunity to rule that out today. Please | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
assure us all that the hard won freedoms that we have in the Human | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
Rights Act, we will be able to enjoy those in the future. I went follow | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
the honourable member for Belfast East in quoting four the -- from the | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
novel. Before I moved to that, I agree with him on the issue of the | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
Bill of Rights to this extent, but we must have a set -- careful and | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
considered debate. These are important matters, our reputation | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
internationally is an important thing. We must safeguard the rule of | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
law. It is legitimate to look at how best we achieve that in the current | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
context, but we must do so in a calm, considered way. We must have | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
complete faith in the Lord Chancellor. The other matter that I | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
was going to touch upon briefly was an old stamping ground of mine, I | :24:06. | :24:12. | |
welcome the posters around local government and planning in the | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
Queens speech. The proposal for 100% retention of the business rate is | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
something that many of us have long he -- argued for. I take a modest of | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
pride that the Delap Mac -- that we were able to be involved in the act | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
to bring forward to bring forward partial business rate retention. We | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
thought that would be a step along the road to 100% retention. We must | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
look to it even further freedoms for local authorities to raise capital | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
against those opportunities and perhaps see the development of the | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
large and significant bond market to bring forward infrastructure. That | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
is important. I do hope that we will look carefully at the extent of the | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
reform of the compulsory purchase legislation. We want there to be a | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
thoroughly complete updating of the law in this, and I hope that | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
ministers will take that fully on board. There a law completion -- | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
commission report that has never yet been put on the static beaut -- | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
statute book. Finally, I wanted to touch on prison | :25:18. | :25:32. | |
reform. We have touched upon our report on prison safety. That | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
highlights the fact that our prisons have got significantly less safe. | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
They are more dangerous now. We have an increase in the number of | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
assaults amongst prisoners, an increase in the assaults upon staff, | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
an increasing the of suicides and an increase in the numbers of self | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
harming and an increase in the number of fires being set in our | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
prisons. That is not sustainable. Full credit to the Secretary of | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
State justice that he has immediately recognise that. His | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
response yesterday in a letter to our committee made no bones of the | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
fact that he regards these figures as terrible and that immediate | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
action needs to be taken. He has put money where his mouth is by signing | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
an additional ?10 million with immediate effect to prisoners's | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
safety. That is to be commended, and I congratulate him on that approach. | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
But we need to acknowledge that we need to change the legal framework | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
to ensure there is proper and meaningful work and there is a real | :26:32. | :26:33. | |
sense of rehabilitation in our prisons, and that will only be | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
achieved if as my right honourable friend said, we get the numbers | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
down. It is not sustainable to have a prison population of 86,000 at | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
this time. Officers are overstretched. We are seeing | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
resignations from the Prison Service, and although efforts have | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
been made to recruit new staff, they have a large number are being offset | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
by resignations by experienced up. We need to get a grip on this in | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
terms of staff retention. That is critical. The second point is you | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
cannot carry out that purposeful work, that serious rehabilitation, | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
dealing with those issues which are the key underpinnings, as anyone has | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
been involved with the criminal justice system, as I was as a | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
barrister for 30 years, that lack of family ties, lack of intervention, | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
lack of educational attainment, lack of literacy, lack of employability, | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
lack of stable homes. You cannot do that with the prison population | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
which is resting at the seams. We have to grasp the level, as my right | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
honourable and worded friend said, that it is actually a desirable and | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
a good, from a preserved -- from a Conservative's perspective, to get | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
down the numbers, because the ultimate test in terms of doing good | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
by society is to make sure that there are fewer victims of crime and | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
if we reduce reoffending there are fewer victims of crime and it is | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
also possible to do so now with better technology, with padding and | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
other things, to have much more serious alternatives to custody, to | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
make much more imaginative use of release on temporary licence. All of | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
these things are real opportunities and there is a chance to see that | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
with the prison reform bill coming forward and the Secretary of State | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
has been bowled in a good and long tradition of conservative social | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
reform, and I for one wish him well in that process. Thank you, Madam | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
Deputy Speaker. If a single phrase could define a white's ambition for | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
the UK's place in the world, it might be that the UK should punch | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
above its weight. In 2010, the prime ministers adopted that phrase when | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
introducing that your's city just defence review. Making sure, for | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
instance, that Britain was my biggest ever aircraft carriers would | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
be without aircraft for years after service and scrapping the Nimrod | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
replacements, ending any pretence that the UK could effectively | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
monitor and respond to activity in its territorial waters. But despite | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
creating such gaps in the UK's defence capability, the Prime | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
Minister made it clear that the Armed Forces were still expected to | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
deliver Britain's punch where ever the Government directed it. It is no | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
wonder that five years later, as demonstrated by the MoD's own | :29:12. | :29:13. | |
survey, that this Government has presided over a very troubling | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
decline in the morale of our Armed Forces. The question of whether | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
Britain can or indeed should punch above its weight militarily is | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
addressed in just two max freezes in Her Majesty's speech. Ministers will | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
invest in Britain's Armed Forces, honouring the military Government | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
and honouring the Nato commitment to spend 2% on national defence, they | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
will also act to secure the long-term future of decisions that | :29:39. | :29:46. | |
demonstrate how difficult this Government finds balancing such | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
competing demands. From its introduction in 1988, the Army's | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
main armoured personnel carrier, the Warrior, has been over faulty | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
electrics and problems with its chain gun. But it wasn't until 2009 | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
at warrior gunners were authorised to use the mechanical safety catch | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
and in the interim, there were unknown numbers of undivided firings | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
and an unknown number of unintended casualties. Surely a Government | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
aspiring to remain a member of the nuclear club, whatever the cost, | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
must provide its front-line troops with a vehicle that is secure and | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
safe to use, if it is serious about investing in our Armed Forces. And | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
members across the houseboat is a beaded any campaign on compensation | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
for service personnel affected by their activities. That campaign was | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
only necessary by the Government telling victims that their diagnosis | :30:41. | :30:42. | |
had missed an arbitrary cut-off date. This raises questions about | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
the Government's response to our Armed Forces that such campaign | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
should be necessary. And lately I been approached on the half of REF's | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
whippers are kept their colleagues safe by repairing vital life-saving | :30:59. | :31:00. | |
equipment. There are strong indications that their working | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
conditions have resulted in many of them dying from work-related cancers | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
and chemically induced illnesses. I would ask the committee please | :31:08. | :31:09. | |
examine the evidence close to them to see if there is another injustice | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
it should proactively address. My point in addressing these issues is | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
firstly to recognise the unsatisfactory conditions in which | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
our military personnel are too often asked to carry out the work that | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
underpins Britain punching above its weight, and secondly to demonstrate | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
that decisions to spend large sums of money on elite military programme | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
are not without consequences. The commitment to Trident contained | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
within the Queen's speech has profound applications for the rest | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
of the military. In signs of what is to come, we have recently seen yet | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
more budget revisions that will see the true cost of Trident continuing | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
to spiral out of control. The Government continues to top up a | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
programme that will be carefully managed and subject to value for | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
money processes. I am delighted to give way. I honourable friend is | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
making a powerful point about the alternative is spent on military | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
applications, but with the recent price tag of ?204 billion being | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
placed on Trident, the Queen's speech prioritised new transport | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
methods, and an opportunity to connect people on a wider basis. | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
Would it not be another valuable way of spending some of that money to | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
invest in mass transit rather than mass destruction? I thank my | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
honourable friend for his intervention and it is undeniably | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
true that there are many and varied uses that that money could much | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
better be put to. And if the decision is taken to proceed, the | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
Government is committed to this programme and whatever the cost may | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
be. And I didn't then becomes the one on stoppable expenditure | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
commitment in the expense budget. Madam Deputy Speaker, there was | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
homework set for all members by the Minister for defence procurement | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
before recess. We are all provided with a hand-out, which I have here | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
on nuclear weapons, and asked to read carefully. I did, and it | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
demonstrate very clearly to me that this Government is running out a | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
credible arguments. It stated that to be effective, Britain's nuclear | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
weapons system needs to be invulnerable and undetectable. In | :33:07. | :33:08. | |
this world of technological change, who can truly believe this will | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
remain the case? Already we can see the emergence of technologies and | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
detection systems that will make concealment very challenging. And I | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
know this house does not like to be reminded of it, but there is one | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
place where it will always be possible to find one or more of the | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
submarines, and that is on the Clyde. Just eat fewer miles from | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
Scotland's most densely populated city region. And in extremis, if | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
that one submarine is on patrol is disabled, there is that one other | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
Place from which the UK's Trident nuclear metals can be fired, and | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
that is from these submarines on the Clyde. The homework sheet also | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
suggest that the UK could use Trident missiles on countries who | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
may transfer nuclear technology to terrorists. Even to consider the use | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
of Trident missiles in such a role highlights how inappropriate it is | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
but the UK to attempt to remain a member of the nuclear club. Madam | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
deputies bigger, I am trying to cover all bases, from counter into | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
insurgency to marine and air projected across the globe to an | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
independent nuclear power. The danger is that the UK from some | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
diesels well. As the party scene with the budget squeeze, lives are | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
put at risk by inadequate equipment or front-line troops has a | :34:19. | :34:20. | |
protection for those working in the background. Too much of the track | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
record of ill-prepared interventions and badly planned and poorly | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
resourced the building programmes. Its track record suggest that the UK | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
Government should consider how to punch better within its weight | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
instead of continuing with this constant striving for over a breach | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
which can only damage the UK's reputation and cause the kind of | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
unintended consequences we now face in Libya, Syria, and elsewhere. I am | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
sorry, we will have two lower the limit to four minutes and urged | :34:51. | :34:52. | |
members not to do interventions or we will not get everybody in. Andy | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
McDonald's. I am pleased to take part in this debate and I of | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
reflecting on the pageantry of last week's location. I thought about how | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
that tradition fitted with the wider issue of human rights. The growing | :35:04. | :35:12. | |
equality is now land in that context and I confess to finding it | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
uncomfortable. Last week was the anniversary of the ceiling of the | :35:18. | :35:26. | |
Magna Carter. This came from a belief that citizens should be equal | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
under the law and the exploitation of political power but I find myself | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
questioning how all of those hard-won human rights sit with the | :35:35. | :35:36. | |
realities and the lives of the citizens of our country because they | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
are the purpose and the reason we are here in this place. For example, | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
cuts to legal aid ( access to justice from a right for all to the | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
preserve of a wealthy few. This deal is the notion that the powerful in | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
our society are above the law and attacks on our rights and failing to | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
hold transgressors to justice. The exorbitant fees now plate -- now | :36:05. | :36:14. | |
paid in tribunal processes. Ensuring people have access to justice as a | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
fundamental part of our democracy so that everyone, regardless of the | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
personal circumstances, should be entitled to receive equal treatment | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
under the law. If the poorest and the most marginalised cannot find | :36:27. | :36:34. | |
representation, this has become ever more so as our welfare system is | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
becoming ever more punitive. And this undermining of access to | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
justice is mirrored in cases of historical injustices which have not | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
yet been addressed. The Hillsborough disaster is a poignant illustration | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
of how justice was denied to ordinary people in order to protect | :36:50. | :36:51. | |
the interests of the political powerful and the recent verdict at | :36:52. | :37:00. | |
the inquest. This was nearly three decades too late. My right | :37:01. | :37:07. | |
honourable friend commended for his efforts to secure justice for the | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
Hillsborough campaigners and the Home Secretary also deserves a great | :37:12. | :37:13. | |
deal of credit for an excellent performance at the dispatch docs | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
speaking on the issue. But the friends of family who said goodbye | :37:19. | :37:20. | |
to loved ones as they went to enjoy a game of football will never return | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
and had to wait 27 years. But I would like to send a message of full | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
support to all of our police officers around the UK who go about | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
their duties diligently every day to keep us safe. My criticisms are not | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
about them. They do brilliant work will stop but it is about the rotten | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
culture that was too perverse and it is our duty to ensure that the truth | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
is reviewed in all its horror if we are to extinguish any last remaining | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
vestiges of such corrupt thinking and ensure that these disasters are | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
never repeated. Nothing short of a cultural shift will suffice. The | :37:57. | :37:58. | |
Hillsborough enquiry showed how senior police officers falsely blame | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
the victims. It was an absolute disgrace. These Son will never be | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
forgiven for the dreadful slurs and insults. Many of us will never | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
forget the argument the Spectator published. And that article's | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
combination of the entire city and its people. But Hillsborough wasn't | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
an isolated incident of historic injustice. There are others that I | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
wish to address, but it is ultimately about how we view | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
ourselves as a society. And what sort of country we want to be. As we | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
have contended, we do not look at these things with great honesty, and | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
if so we will not learn these lessons and it is for those reasons | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
that I would like to see any discussion of the Human Rights Act | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
is framed in that context that we can probably examine the Davila from | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
those terrible events. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
pleasure to follow my honourable friend. I am pleased this debate is | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
focusing upon amongst other things human rights and keeping people safe | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
at home and abroad. It gives me an opportunity to talk about the | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
situation in Bangladesh. Particularly as it relates to Great | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
Britain. Whilst I readily accept that there are other countries that | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
require the Government's attention, not least Syria and the Ukraine, I | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
do believe that the situation in Bangladesh is rapidly deteriorating. | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
Since their field general election on the 5th of January 2014, | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
Bangladesh has gradually slid into chaos. -- field. We now see | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
political intimidation, fraudulent elections, a loss of media freedom, | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
a breakdown in human rights, the creation of a culture of fear. | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
Human rights watch have criticised the authorities for excessive use of | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
force, extrajudicial killings. The police are being accused of human | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
rights abuses and disappearing political opponents. The media are | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
having undue pressure placed upon them, and the justice system is now | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
biased and used to silence political opponents. It was only last week | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
that a leader of the political opposition party was hanged because | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
of the tribunal that is currently taking place in that region. There | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
are three reasons why I raise my concerns about Bangladesh. One, we | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
have to think about what they are having to endure. But also, we don't | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
matter as it slips further into chaos, we must not underestimate the | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
immigration problems we have here. We have a large die aspera here | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
already, and they have a population of over 160 million. If a war does | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
break out there, then there will be a lot of asylum seekers looking to | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
come to this country, and we should bear that in mind. Three, because | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
civil society is being shrunk in Bangladesh, the space is now being | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
filled by extremists. So when the government rightly talks about | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
tackling extremism, one of the priorities has got to be Bangladesh, | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
and just briefly illustrate that, during the course of April, people | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
have started to quite literally be hacked to death in that country, | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
because of their views or their sexuality. Someone was killed on the | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
6th of April, on the 23rd of April, people killed on the 25th of April | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
and indeed on the 30th of April. In all of those instances, the | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
perpetrators of those crimes were either Al-Qaeda related or Isis | :41:42. | :41:50. | |
related. We are beginning to see extremists in Bangladesh, and not | :41:51. | :41:52. | |
only is it alarming for their country but it should be concerning | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
for Britain. Because of the strong ties we have between the two | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
countries, much of which should be celebrated, we should be vigilant | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
about how some of that extremism can transfer into their -- from their | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
country into ours. Honourable members may be aware of the murder | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
of Mike constituent in Rochdale of the -- on the 18th of debris this | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
year. I want to say very little about this, because it is an issue | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
that will come before the courts, but I can say that recent media | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
reports have made it clear that the anti-terror police were involved, | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
and there are concerns about the incident being linked to extremism. | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
So let me finish by making this point. There is a situation in | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
Bangladesh escalating, and it could have profound consequences for | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
Britain, even in towns like Rochdale. I have cut my speech. I | :42:45. | :42:57. | |
want to focus my remarks on prison reform. It is a pleasure to serve | :42:58. | :43:08. | |
under the chairmanship on brambling Chislehurst. As well as the | :43:09. | :43:15. | |
honourable member who had to leave the member from Banbury. The present | :43:16. | :43:24. | |
state of the criminal justice system is unfair on society as a whole. I | :43:25. | :43:33. | |
want welcome and support the Secretary of State, the Lord | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
Chancellor's statement, exposing his desire to reform our prison system, | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
and I still support that call. The Ministry of Justice has sought to | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
improve business safety through a series of legislative and staff | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
recruitment measures. The Ministry hoped that safety would stabilise. | :43:50. | :43:58. | |
But it has lessened further. It is imperative that further attention is | :43:59. | :44:09. | |
paid to prisons. Dicky on self harm, suicides. If we do not bring it | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
under control soon, it will similarly -- seriously undermined | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
the reforms that we have been making. It is frequently asserted | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
that problems indifferent public services are not all about money. Of | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
course, this is the case, appropriate management of resources | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
is essential. As far as prisons are concerned, this is no longer a | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
viable line of argument. We need sufficient resources and we need it | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
now, or a crisis will become an absolute catastrophe. We have a | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
prison population continues to rise. 7000 more prisoners and 7000 fewer | :44:50. | :45:00. | |
officers. We have psychotic drops being taken in. There have been | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
serious recruitment and retention problems. 2250 extra prison officers | :45:08. | :45:15. | |
were recruited last year. It resulted in 430 net gain. Many of | :45:16. | :45:22. | |
them leaving. It is Ashley up to 530. We have recruited since 2015. | :45:23. | :45:30. | |
How can officers be obtained in an environment where there are rights | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
on a regular basis? It questions health and safety policy on the | :45:35. | :45:36. | |
management arrangement for implementing the policies in prison. | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
We need to get them in and need to get them immediately. That requires | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
money. It requires an acknowledgement that words about | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
getting nevertheless are nonsense when it comes to winning down the | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
whole system. I have to ask members of the house who they think would do | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
a prison officer's job at the moment? A starting salary is ?17,735 | :45:59. | :46:08. | |
basic. That is the equivalent of ?9 22 per hour. Having had real pay | :46:09. | :46:19. | |
cuts. By 2020 and the full implementation of the National | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
waving wage, the basic will be little over that legal minimum. I | :46:25. | :46:32. | |
have to end, but what I would say is that I recognise and only except the | :46:33. | :46:39. | |
letters we have received, dated the 18th and 19th of May from the | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
Secretary of State. However, we need to address the problems across the | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
whole prison estate, not just prisons. It must be done and must be | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
done quickly. I will have to drop the limit down to three minutes. I | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
once used the time available to present a positive case for these | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
islands remaining part of the European Union, but also did dispel | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
many of the myths of the Brexit case. We have heard again today, | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
this fantasy about laws being part -- passed by unelected brewer Kratz. | :47:14. | :47:24. | |
That is ironic in a parliament that has the biggest unelected body in | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
the whole world. It is also untrue. The European Commission is | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
unelected. It also has no powers whatsoever to pass legislation. Any | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
legislation proposed must be approved by the European Parliament | :47:38. | :47:39. | |
which is at least as democratic as this, because it is at least elected | :47:40. | :47:49. | |
on a proportional system. Legislation | :47:50. | :47:59. | |
these myths are allowed to gain currency because UK citizens are | :48:00. | :48:08. | |
among the worst informed in the whole of Europe about what the | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
European union is actually about. I would suggest that is something that | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
is a matter of deep shame for this and previous governments and an | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
indictment on those who claim to inform us on these important issues. | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
So why is it that council meetings are so shrouded in secrecy? Because | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
ministers choose to keep them so. In just three months, the European | :48:33. | :48:40. | |
committee published 37 different findings that were intensely | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
critical of the government's treatment of the committee. | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
Unsatisfactory, unacceptable, those words were used time again. At the | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
close of the last parliament recession, there were 30 European | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
documents that the committee had asked to have debated it on the | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
floor the house or in committee, but the government had chosen not find | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
time for. Those documents were in place before the general election | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
last year. These are documents that were important enough to require | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
debate by members that -- but the government had not allowed them to | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
be debated. So when we talk about a lack of scrutiny and transparency in | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
European union and institutions, I don't think the fault lies with | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
Europe, it lies squarely with the UK Government and its ministers. | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
Perhaps if the government was elected on a more representative and | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
proportional basis, perhaps if it was reformed to account a lot of | :49:37. | :49:44. | |
these myths, they would not have currency. We would not be facing the | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
possibility of cutting ourselves out from Europe that should be a force | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
for the most progressive social justice programme anywhere on this | :49:54. | :50:01. | |
planet. The general consensus is that we are now debating a very thin | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
Queen 's speech. For me, the lack of attention paid to defence and our | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
Armed Forces was the most striking aspect of the Queen speech overall. | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
Today, I would talk about keeping people safe home and abroad. | :50:18. | :50:25. | |
This is a government that slavishly dedicated of renewing the UK's | :50:26. | :50:36. | |
discredit fit and unusable nuclear deterrent, despite the | :50:37. | :50:43. | |
the time this afternoon to not allow me to do well on Trident renewal. In | :50:44. | :50:54. | |
1% pay freeze has been built into any Toure all MOD cancellations, and | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
it will result in real terms pay cut. I can assure the Secretary of | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
State that the SNP will hold him to account on every aspect of Trident | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
renewal and of protecting the Armed Forces personnel. I will also not be | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
able to concentrate on the lack of any sort of time frame for Trident. | :51:16. | :51:23. | |
Or any idea as to how we are going to, there will be no decision made | :51:24. | :51:31. | |
by this Parliament, and it is predicted to cost more than ?167 | :51:32. | :51:39. | |
billion. In our alternative Queens speech, we will seek nuclear weapon | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
's consent Bill sent to the state that a Scottish parliament before | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
more WMDs are allocated in Scotland. We are committed to keeping our | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
people safe. A bill of this kind will simply | :51:55. | :52:11. | |
knock the effect of increasing certainty to shipbuilding workers | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
tactically on the Clyde. As defence minister suggested to me in a | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
Parliamentary question last month, the whole programme for the purchase | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
has been delayed, with many estimates looking like 2017. During | :52:26. | :52:34. | |
the referendum campaign, it was quite clear that thou was made to | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
the Scottish people, and I think on the basis of the projection of the | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
type 26 programme, that thou has been broken by this government, and | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
we should do everything that it is reinstated. Thank you for calling me | :52:50. | :52:59. | |
in today's debate. It should have given our nation a sense of | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
opportunity and hope. It should have charted a course for a fair, more | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
equitable country, Dillon country. Instead, the government drew back | :53:13. | :53:20. | |
into the minutiae, with frameworks and reorganisations and even | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
encouragement and promotion, but not addressing the big issues facing our | :53:24. | :53:33. | |
globe in desperate need. This is why our country is so frustrated. It | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
cannot grasp what we are doing, where we are going, and how we are | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
going to get there on the big issues which are challenging us. It reminds | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
me of the proverb, problem 29, where there is no vision, the people | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
perish. This is why leadership is so important, and why our spring at the | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
table to influence change is vital for our future. I want to speak in | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
today's debate because it is why we are where we are with the EU. If a | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
government that has lacked vision and ambition in Europe this past six | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
years, and instead of setting the agenda, it has drawn down to the | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
fringes, and frankly lost its way until it is realised what is at | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
stake. Even now, we are seeing buying being passed to the door of | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
the EU, and not blame placed at number ten. What are the issues we | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
should be debating this week? Climate change, population | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
expansion, 16 million people on the move on our planet. Disease, famine, | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
humanitarian disaster. Instability and conflict. Not a whisper of any | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
of these issues in the Queens speech, and yet right across our | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
country, there is a deafening chorus crying out for response and | :54:49. | :54:50. | |
leadership on these very issues. But worse, we see those who want to | :54:51. | :55:00. | |
leave the EU taking us into the wilderness without being able to | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
articulate where we are heading, how we are going to engage with nations, | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
how we are going to trade and provide jobs and protect our future | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
security. How we are going to address climate change and seriously | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
find the solutions to the issues facing the population is under so | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
much threat at this time. This is why our membership of the EU is so | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
crucial. There is so much I could have said today, but I believe we | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
need not and should not be fearful as a nation about what is happening | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
on our planet. Britain needs to find its confidence again. With vision | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
and ambition to lead. Two lead at the heart of Europe so we can take | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
action on the very issues people on our streets are looking to us to | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
read on. That is why on the 23rd of June, we need to be voting to | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
remain, to take the lead in our world. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I | :55:50. | :55:57. | |
can't help but feel an ominous sense of deja vu. Prior to the general | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
election, the Conservatives vowed to bring forward the British Bill of | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
Rights in their first 100 days in office. Kicked into the long grass | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
last year, these plans have once again reared their ugly head. Like | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
many in this place, I find it infuriating that the Government | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
refused to drop their attack on human rights, and let's be clear, | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
that is exactly what this says. No amount of Government spin will | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
convince myself or many others that plans to scrap the Human Rights Act | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
is anything other than in outright assault on human rights itself. The | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
Human Rights Act is a very important piece of legislation, and I think | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
the Government have seriously underestimated sentiment towards it. | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
There is little public appetite for their plans and plenty of | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
opposition. The Prime Minister's plans are not that new, either. | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
Let's remember that it is more than a decade since he set up a panel of | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
legal experts to draw up a British bill of rights to replace the Human | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
Rights Act. He has been utterly unable to sell these plans, ten | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
years on, despite being in power for more than half that time. Rather | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
than admit defeat and allow these plans to die a dignified death, he | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
insists upon keeping them on life support. Quite frankly, his | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
pig-headedness is becoming a source of huge embarrassment again. The | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
existing legislation is a very modern bill of rights that protects | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
sovereignty and safeguard the rights and freedoms across all of our | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
nations. That underpins the Good Friday agreement, and the | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
Government's plans could indeed be a breach of that monumental and | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
hard-won concord. Indeed, if the Government press ahead with their | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
plans, they risk eliciting a complete constitutional crisis. It | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
is time the Government stop fluffing this issue. Either kill the bill or | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
bring forward concrete plans. The Government must propose details and | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
a timetable for the consultation on a British Bill of Rights. The | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
consultation needs to be far reaching. Although downplayed by the | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
Government, this will mean a fundamental change in the rights of | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
all British citizens. Any consultation held must engage civic | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
society and in that regard, the Government could learn from the | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
inclusive manner with which Scottish parliamentary consultation is | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
carried out. Views from the public are actively sought out, with | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
consultations will advertise, utilising social media channels as | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
well as conventional ones. Of course, if the Government want to | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
kick their plans into the long grass again this year, there will be no | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
complaints from me. I only ask that they take them hard enough that they | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
will be unable to find them ever again. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It has | :58:45. | :58:53. | |
been an excellent and informative debate. During which we have been | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
treated to the marvellous speech by the member for blog more. He told us | :58:58. | :59:04. | |
that he had been set the goal by his constituents of being half as good | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
as Hume. On today's evidence and on the fact that he is already making | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
the case for steelworkers who are lobbying Parliament tomorrow, I can | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
tell him that he will pass that test with flying colours will stop we | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
wish him well. A clear majority of speakers today, the members for | :59:24. | :59:33. | |
Ilford South, York Central, have made the case that Britain will be | :59:34. | :59:37. | |
immeasurably stronger by remaining part of the European Union. And just | :59:38. | :59:44. | |
as the economic case for leaving has crumbled under questioning in recent | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
days, so today's debate has put the security case for the exit is under | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
intense scrutiny and found it to be illusory. A vote to leave is a vote | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
for isolation, that simply makes no sense whatsoever in a highly | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
volatile and unpredictable world. And this case was put by nobody more | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
powerfully than my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, who | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
gave yet another tour de force in this house. The Shadow Foreign | :00:15. | :00:21. | |
Secretary. It is a matter of time. I think you would all agree with that. | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
So we agree, Mr Speaker, with the Government that our membership of | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
the EU strengthens our security at home and abroad. But we do not agree | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
that the bills in the gracious speech will make our society either | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
stronger or fairer. Indeed, they could do the opposite. Undermine our | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
understanding in the world and expose us to risks of | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
radicalisation. Let me quote from the gracious speech. My Government | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
will bring forward proposals for a British Bill of Rights. That was in | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
fact the 2015 gracious speech, Mr Speaker. This year, it said | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
proposals will be brought forward for a British bill of rights. Isn't | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
it a little on fear on Her Majesty, is it not, to ask to keep reading | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
out a cut and paste Queen's speech? One can speculate why this long | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
promised Tory bill of rights has never materialised. Might it be | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
because it from an impulse for political grandstanding rather than | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
a carefully thought through response to the challenges of the modern | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
world? I fear, Mr Speaker, that the said good -- the same could be said | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
of the extremism bill. It seems the Government is opening up a Pandora's | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
box without fully knowing where they are going or what they're trying to | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
achieve in areas as sensitive as these that is a dangerous thing to | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
do. Let me take each bill in turn. A cute weeks ago, the Home Secretary | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
gave a speech in which he called for Britain to leave the European | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
Convention on human rights. What a terrible message that would send to | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
the rest of the world. What a boost for regimes who seek to deny human | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
rights to their own citizens, to claim that Britain is doing the same | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
as the former Attorney General eloquently pointed out in his | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
speech. Of course, the nuances of our debate will be lost on the other | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
side of the world and Britain's moral authority and the world stage | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
would be severely dented. A a few days ago, the Telegraph reported | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
that the Prime Minister did not support any change on the European | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
convention, so we have the Home Secretary saying one thing and the | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
Prime Minister another. How can we possibly have confidence in what the | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
Government is proposing, when its position is so confused? They have | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
lost sight of a simple point which might explain why they are so | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
muddled on this matter. The Human Rights Act is a British bill of | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
rights. These are the basic rights that Britain wrote and promoted | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
around the world in the post-war periods, rights which protect | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
ordinary people from the unaccountable power of the state and | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
vested interests, look at some of the examples of how they have | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
protects people fighting injustice. I think of the elderly couple, Mr | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
and Mrs Driscoll, who had lived together as a married couple for 65 | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
years, but then were put in separate care homes by a local authority. | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
They use the Human Rights Act to be brought back together, and of course | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
I think that if the Human Rights Act had been in place in 1989, the | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
Hillsborough families would have had much more ability to challenge the | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
cruel decision of the original inquest to imposing a 3:15pm time | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
cut off which in the end prevented them from finding out basic details | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
about what happened to their loved ones. One can almost either that the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
Government's barbers in legislating in this area would be to water down | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
these rights in the Human Rights Act, to add more qualifications. I | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
ask the Home Secretary, how's that going to build a stronger and fairer | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
country? It won't, and that is why Labour will proudly defend its Human | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
Rights Act and fight any attempt to weaken human right laws in country. | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
In a similar way, I struggle to see how the proposed counter extremism | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
bill will do anything other than undermine community cohesion. Mr | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
Speaker, I will be the first to say that the Government is right to | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
tackle extremism, and I want to support them in that game, but the | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
question is not whether we do it, but how we do it. I am genuinely | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
concerned that the Government is getting its approach drastically | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
wrong. And my right honourable friend the member for Camberwell and | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
Peckham was at her best on this subject today. I say this not out of | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
party politics, nor a desire to score points, but because I am | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
worried about the deep despondency I hear in the Muslim community when I | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
visit mosques, a despondency caused by the existing legislation. If the | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
house legislates in haste the game, then the damage could be more | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
profound. At the weekend, the Home Secretary received a letter from | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
police representatives, faith groups, civil society organisations, | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
expressing major concerns about the proposed bill. She cannot just | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
ignore this and plough on regardless. The duty to report | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
extremist behaviour is creating a feeling that the Muslim community is | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
being unfairly targeted and monitored. It is building a climate | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
of suspicion and distrust. In my view, if they legislate further and | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
extend what is perceived to be an non-liberal and discriminatory | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
approach, far from tackling extremism, it risks creating the | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
conditions for it to flourish. I will give way. I understand his | :05:41. | :05:49. | |
concern, but the rest of the nation knows that the real threat we face | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
is specific. As I said in my speech, I said it is specific and it is | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
Islamic fundamentalism, barbarity on a scale previously unimagined is | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
being done in the name of Islam. It is up to the Muslim community in | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
Britain to address this problem in their midst. I say to the honourable | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
gentleman, the way to address the point that he makes is not to tar | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
everybody with the same brush and throw suspicion over the whole | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
community, that that is the language that we have heard coming out of | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
those benches. We heard the Prime Minister 's sake is part of the | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
Muslim community are quietly condoning extremism. Now, that does | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
not win hearts and minds in the community. 99.9% of people who are | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
needed to work with the Government to find the very small number of | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
people who may be at risk of radicalisation, and I would say, | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
rather than compounding this damage by legislating in haste, I argue | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
ministers to take a step back and set up a cross-party review on how | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
the statutory duty is working in practice. That would be much more | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
beneficial than pushing on with further legislation. I give way to | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
the honourable gentleman. I am sure he would accept that in the past, | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
when we have dealt with totalitarian the reason of communism and fascism, | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
we never made the actual holding of the views either legal, what we made | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
illegal was the carrying of the views into a form of violent action. | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
But that he also accept that where children are concerned and | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
indoctrination in secret is concerned, that is something where | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
we must intervene if we are not going to see the radicalisation of a | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
new generation? I think the honourable gentleman makes an | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
important point, but this is why it is important to tread with great | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
care into the space that the bill is proposing to tread into. Talk of | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
gagging orders, closure orders. This will be perceived as attack on the | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
whole community, and that is how people are feeling out there right | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
now. I think there is no difference on either side of the house. We want | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
to tackle extremism and radicalisation in the most effective | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
way. I am suddenly putting it to the Government that they are not | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
achieving that at the moment. Britain must remain a place where | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
everybody is free to express and develop their beliefs without the | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
fear that they are being spied upon. That freedom is what makes this | :08:09. | :08:10. | |
country in wonderful place to live and worship, and we must never lose | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
it. At the same time, we must be steadfast inviting all forms of | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
extremism, Mr Speaker, exclude including Islamophobia, | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
anti-Semitism, and far right extremism, to prevent any suggestion | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
that extremism is just the preserve of one community. Let me touch | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
briefly on prisons. We welcome the Government's efforts to reform our | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
prison system with a greater focus on rehabilitation and prisoner | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
education and it was the leisure to hear the honourable gentleman for | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
Rushcliffe on this topic. However, there is a real issue in our prisons | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
and the former chief prisons Inspector Nic Hardwick has talked | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
about our prisons being the worst state for ten years and places of | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
violence and squalor and my honourable friend spoke very | :09:01. | :09:02. | |
powerfully about prison safety and the need to improve staffing | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
numbers, they hope the Government will listen to her before they | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
proceed with the bill. Let me end on a more constructive note. There are | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
two carried over bills in the gracious speech on white -- on which | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
it must be possible to build more consensus. We shared the Home | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
Secretary's goal of butting an updated law into the statute curbing | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
the use of surveillance powers and giving the police and the security | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
services the tools to do their job in the digital age, but we continue | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
to have serious concerns about the bill as currently drafted. It does | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
not yet contain sufficiently strong safeguards and human rights | :09:47. | :09:47. | |
protections. I set out seven areas where we want | :09:48. | :09:57. | |
to see significant improvement. Yesterday, the Home Secretary wrote | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
to me onto the seven issues that I highlighted, and I have to say, I | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
found her letter extremely encouraging. The Home Secretary's | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
commitment in this letter to an independent review of the case, the | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
operational case for the Bob Powers, a review that was called for by the | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
shadow Immigration Minister, that review is not only the right thing | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
to do, it is something that could build trust in the whole process as | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
it moves forward. I am pleased in her letter that she has agreed to | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
looking at a review, and has approached David Anderson QC to lead | :10:40. | :10:50. | |
it. We strongly welcome that. The second issue that she has written to | :10:51. | :10:58. | |
me on is on our concerns on the targeting of trade unions. We have | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
concerns on this side that in the past, the security services have | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
targeted trade unions, in telling cryptically in the case of the | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
should be 24. We have a suggestion in the Home Secretary's letter that | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
she will change the bill to ensure investigatory Powers cannot be used | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
to monitor the jet of trade union activity. I would say that as a | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
major concert that a major concession, and I am certain it will | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
go a long way to reassure members on this side of this house. However, | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
there is still some considerable way to go before this bill becomes | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
acceptable, but this letter shows the Home Secretary is listening, and | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
that bodes well for the rest of this bill's passage. On the policing and | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
crime Bill, we have looked for a number of changes in response to the | :11:59. | :12:00. | |
Hillsborough -- Hillsborough verdict. It will remove any time | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
limit on misconduct procedures to remove retirement being used as a | :12:10. | :12:17. | |
way to avoid charges. I would urge parties to do the same. The best | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
message we could send the families, is to come together across the floor | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
this house and make sure Hillsborough is a moment of real | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
change. In conclusion, my experience of working with the Home Secretary | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
of an Hillsborough is a reminder of the help we have in this place to | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
change lives for the better when we put differences aside and work as | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
one. But we don't always choose to use it. I believe the issues we have | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
touched on today, the promotion of human rights and the eradication of | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
extremism are bigger than party politics. They are issues where are | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
most vulnerable communities would look to us to achieve the maximum | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
amount of political consensus, because that will give strength back | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
to the communities. I would urge the government keep that point in mind | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
as it brings the new forward. -- new bills forward. As is fitting for | :13:08. | :13:17. | |
debate on the Queen 's speech, we have had a wide-ranging range of | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
contributions today, from Right Honourable and honourable members. | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
Many speeches referred to human rights, to the European Union, to | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
counter extremism. The member for South and -- Sutton cowled Phil -- | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
Sutton Coldfield referred to housing. I would like to pay tribute | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
to the work that he did for International development. Bury | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
South's MP referred to buses, which were referred to in the gracious | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
address. I would like to address the main point in a moment, but I would | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
like to first joined the sack -- Shadow Home Secretary for Cratchit | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
-- congratulating the member for more for his maiden speech. He was | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
replacing a predecessor who was a much respected and well liked member | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
of this house. I look forward to the honourable member reaching his | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
second Tariq, which I think you referred to in his speech, but he is | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
not only going to be an excellent reference -- retentive of his | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
constituency, but he will be a well liked member of this house. Can also | :14:26. | :14:33. | |
commend the opening two speeches. My right honourable friend the Foreign | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
Secretary spoke with the characteristic authority, knowledge | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
and understanding of the wider range of foreign affairs that require our | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
attention today. As he said, the world is becoming more dangerous and | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
more uncertain. It is against that background that the Queens speech | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
referred to a number of issues which are about our national security and | :14:55. | :14:56. | |
defence, including Trident. I disagree with the SNP MPs. Trident | :14:57. | :15:07. | |
is an important part of our defence and national security. Against that | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
dangerous background, it is right that we ensure that the law | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
enforcement and security and intelligence agencies have the | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
powers they need in today's world where terrorists increasingly used | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
new technology. We need to ensure that our agencies are able to | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
operate in the digital age. I'm grateful to the Shadow Home | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
Secretary for the comments he has made about the exchange that we have | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
had just in the last couple of days in relation to an upper of matters | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
in the investigatory Powers Bill, which is a carry-over bill. I intend | :15:42. | :15:49. | |
to continue to work with him and the shadow Immigration Minister, who | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
made an important contribution alongside my ministerial colleagues | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
in the debate earlier today to ensure we can provide a bill that is | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
going to do what it needs to do to provide those operational powers, | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
but has the necessary safeguards within that bill. The opening speech | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
from the Shadow Foreign Secretary, I have to say, there was -- one of my | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
abiding memory is being in this house is the day in which the right | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
honourable gentleman came into this house following a by-election, and | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
the look, the beam of absolute pride on his late father's face of his son | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
coming into this house. As the right honourable gentleman said, his | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
father would not have agreed with the substance of what he said on the | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
EU, but he would have been proud with the eloquence and passion with | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
which he put forward his case. And a number of right honourable members | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
talked about the issue of the European union. The honourable | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
member for Ilford South, the minimum Selly Oak, York Central, there were | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
some who were not in favour of remaining in the European Union. The | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
member for Basildon and Billericay and the member for New Forest East, | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
who was concerned about some of the defence issues. At the member for | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
Bridgend, he took issue with the Tom Ince of the chairman of the select | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
committee. -- with the comments of the chairman. | :17:27. | :17:37. | |
My honourable friend reminded us that we need to be remember about | :17:38. | :17:48. | |
the role of Britain in the world, and we do need to remember... I | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
would just finish this. We do need to remember the benefits that | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
working together in cooperation with other countries can bring to us. | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
Amongst the many things to disagree with, but focused on a positive | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
point about work abroad. Stephanie Inglis is a Commonwealth Games | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
winning athlete, and she is in a critical condition in Vietnam. She | :18:14. | :18:23. | |
has had overwhelming support, and they have been problems with | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
insurance. I'm grateful for the foreign and come of office support. | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
They are needing help with translation services. I would like | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
to reflect a good wish that... The honourable gentleman makes a | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
powerful case. The Foreign Office minister was here earlier. He has | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
been able to speak to him briefly on this, as the honourable member has | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
seen, their heart and other ministers who have heard that point. | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
And my right honourable friend who is the Minister for victims. I am | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
sure that support will be forthcoming for the case that he | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
refers to. A number of other members of the house referred to the issue | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
of the counter extremism bill which is proposed within the gracious | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
speech. And it is absolutely right that we have a proud tradition of | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
defending our shared values, which allows Britain to grow into a | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
diverse, tolerant country it is. You are free to decide how you worship, | :19:31. | :19:40. | |
what to wear, but we also have the response abilities to respect the | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
rights of others, and we should be concerned and should stand up to | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
those who seek to sow the seeds of division between our communities, | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
pushing us further apart rather than bringing us together. Although | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
legislation can only be part of the answer, where there is a gap in the | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
law, we must act, and that is why we will be introducing a counter | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
extremism Bill. But to those members of the house, the member for | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
Aldershot, Belfast East, the member for Beaconsfield, who raised | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
specific issues around the bill and concerns around the bill, there will | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
be consultation on this, because we recognise the sensitivities that are | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
involved here, and we want to ensure that we have that consultation. When | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
I mentioned earlier the issues around... I do not have much -- have | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
much time to go. On the European Union, the member for Gordon, he is | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
trying to face in two directions at the same time on this issue. He does | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
appear, and the honourable member of Ilford South was absolutely right. | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
There appears to be a Scottish national view that we want to be in | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
the EU, but we want and exit vote so there could be in independence vote | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
in Scotland. But we should do is what is right for the whole of the | :20:59. | :21:10. | |
UK. I only have limited time... I only have limited time to finish my | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
remarks. The the honourable member for Glenrothes, I should say, it is | :21:14. | :21:23. | |
for ministers in this government who have been standing up for British | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
interest in European Union, and long may that continue. I believe is the | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
right honourable gentleman has said, from everything that I have seen, we | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
are safer and more secure inside the European Union. There were a lot of | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
contributions on the issue of human rights. The Right Honourable member | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
for Camberwell and Peckham, with her role as the member of the joint | :21:45. | :21:52. | |
committee, the member for Reigate, the member for Edinburgh South, | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
Rutherglen and Hamilton West, for Rochdale specifically talked about | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
Bangladesh. I can confirm that human rights are mainstream throughout the | :22:07. | :22:08. | |
Foreign Office thinking, and it is one of the issues that we think | :22:09. | :22:17. | |
about when it comes about policing arrangements and legal information | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
and other matters like that. But there appears to be a fundamental | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
misunderstanding behind some of the contributions. The seems to be a | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
view across the South from some members that somehow, human rights, | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
either started with European Convention of human rights, started | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
with the Human Rights Act. They did not. This is the country that the | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
proud tradition of Magna Carta. This is the country that led the way when | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
it came to human rights, and human rights do not reside just in one | :22:45. | :22:52. | |
piece of legislation, and that is the important point. Our commitment | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
is that we will be bringing forward the Bill of Rights, and we will have | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
significantly more consultation and scrutiny of the bill of rights that | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
we will bring forward than of the Human Rights Act. The other issues | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
in here, the honourable member for Middlesbrough specifically referred | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
to the question of Hillsborough. Everybody in this house was shocked | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
when they saw that the results of the independent panel and verdicts. | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
It is important that we learned that lesson is. That is why Bishop James | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
Jones will be working with the families on that. But it is the | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
first duty of government to ensure the safety and security of citizens | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
and the measures in the Queens speech do just that. We are | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
transparent aren't accountable with our police forces. | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
We are safer and more secure when prisons are not just places to | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
punish. There was lots on prison reform. The member for Rushcliffe | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
did start the government down the path of this important prison | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
reform. This is a Queens speech that is a mark of a reforming government. | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
It puts justice at the heart of public services and reshaped our | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
criminal justice system and I commend it to the house. | :24:18. | :24:22. |