Browse content similar to 14/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
subjected to banning orders, the police will take action agahnst | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
them. Order, the clerk will proceed to read the orders of the d`y. Wales | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
Bill second reading. To movd the second reading of the bill. I called | :00:12. | :00:18. | |
the Secretary of State for Wales, secretary Alun Cairns. I beg to move | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
that the bilby read a second time. We are here to debate the W`les | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
Bill. Fundamental importancd to the future governance of Wales `nd its | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
role within the United Kingdom. It will empower the National Assembly | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
for Wales and the Welsh Govdrnment to deliver on the things th`t really | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
matter. The economy the envhronment and essential public servicds. I | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
want to thank stakeholders hncluding the Welsh affairs select colmittee | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
and the member for Monmouth and the Assembly's constitutional affairs | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
select committee for their work on the draft bill and those including | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
the Welsh Government for thd way they have responded to the | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
publication of the bill. A committed to continue to work with all those | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
stakeholders and others in the process as follows through | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
Parliament. I would first lhke to pay tribute to my right honourable | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
friends, the for Cheshire and Amersham, Clwyd West and prdcisely | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
Pembrokeshire who worked tirelessly to put Welsh devolution on ` stable | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
footing for the long-term. They have played a major part in the | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
development of this bill. Following the resounding yes vote in the 011 | :01:32. | :01:41. | |
referendum for the National Assembly, my right honourable | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
friend, the member of the Chesham and Amersham sought to simplify | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
Welsh devolution by removing the widely disparaged Elko systdm. That | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
was a system or process that we would rather forget. My right | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
honourable friend establishdd a commission to review the financial | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
and constitutional arrangemdnts in Wales. The commission chairdd by Sir | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
Paul silk, and I want to show our appreciation to him for his work and | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
those who joined him in the commission, included represdntatives | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
from all four political parties that were represented in the Assdmbly. It | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
published its first report hn November 2012 on devolving financial | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
powers to the Assembly. My right honourable friend, the membdr for | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
Clywd West then took forward the Wales act 2014 to implement | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
recommendations -- recommendations devolving tax varying powers of the | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
Assembly for the very first time. Establishing an important principle. | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
The commission published its second report, for which my right | :02:47. | :02:56. | |
honourable friend establishdd the Saint Davids Day process, sdeking | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
political consensus, and wh`t could be taken forward. This culmhnation | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
in the Saint Davids the agrdement, published in February 2015, formed | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
the blueprint of the Bill bdfore us today. I also considered thd Smith | :03:12. | :03:20. | |
Commission's proposal, to include the elements that work for Wales. In | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
preparing this Bill, he had been guided by two underlining | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
principles, clarity and accountability. I will give way On | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
a point of clarity, could hd be absolutely clear whether or not the | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
Bill has drafted today for second reading, would permit the assembly | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
to introduce compulsory vothng in Welsh elections? I'm happy to give | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
that clarification. Matters of election, which I will come into | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
detail, will be subject to ` two thirds majority. That includes the | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
franchise for assembly election and biggest agencies and other `reas. I | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
will respond those points when I get to that part in my speech a little | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
later. Clarity, Mr Speaker, because the new reserved powers moddl of | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
devolution was a well-defindd boundary between what is reserved | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
and what is devolved. It cl`rifies who is responsible for what. It is a | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
major step in extending powdrs. It will end the squabble over powers | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
between Cardiff Bay and Westminster, allowing them to get on with the job | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
of improving the economy, sdcuring jobs. It is also about | :04:42. | :04:54. | |
accountability. It paves thd way for making the semi of Wales accountable | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
to the people about how it spends money. -- the assembly of W`les | :04:59. | :05:08. | |
Could he concede the third point to press a bull will be the proper | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
subsidy, and does this meet the requirements question Mike H am | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
grateful for the question. H hope we can cover some of those points | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
further in the debate. Much will depend on what you determind and | :05:25. | :05:36. | |
interpret as so did... He jtst mentioned income tax rates. What | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
will happen of the Welsh block grant to the National Assembly of Wales | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
for the duration of this Parliament, which is fully can speak for. My | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
worry is he will cut the block grant and expect the people of Wales to | :05:51. | :06:05. | |
pick that out. There was a collective effort and promise | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
delivered by the Government. The Barnet adjustments need to be | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
considered, and discussions between the Welsh governance down the | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
Treasury at my officials ard ongoing. We would like to sde | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
progress in these matters as this Bill receives its scrutiny through | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
the Parliamentary process. We are determined to find a transp`rent way | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
that will rightly serve the people of Wales and the Welsh and TK | :06:32. | :06:41. | |
taxpayer. I will give way. H'm thankful. Can I draw him to the | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
comments of his colleague, the Secretary of State for Scotland who | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
said it is a significant dax for Scotland. It will add to be | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
responsible at ease of the Scottish Parliament and a range of ndw | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
powers. It provides great opportunities for the Scotthsh | :06:59. | :07:09. | |
government to deliver Scotthsh fixes to Scottish robbers. -- to Scottish | :07:10. | :07:18. | |
problems. Was he right? We have developed this Bill in consdnsus | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
with the publication of the draft Bill, we have responded to the | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
comments that were made. We have developed... Pride that was the St | :07:28. | :07:38. | |
David's Day agreement, we s`w progress. If I can finish speaking | :07:39. | :07:46. | |
before the next intervention. Ultimately, we don't have a uniform | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
approach to devolution becatse what is right for Scotland isn't | :07:50. | :07:58. | |
necessarily right for Wales. We have different circumstances, different | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
needs and we should respond to those as appropriate bills develop. I hope | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
the honourable member will `ctively participate and seek to improve the | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
Bill through the Parliament`ry process. I'm determined to come to a | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
Bill that all members of thhs House will be at best satisfied whth. I | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
will give way. In February, the Secretary of State's predecdssor | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
said that a lot of the crithcism of the draft Bill was ill informed and | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
plain wrong. Given that the governed has accepted most of the crhticism | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
and the amendment of the bell, does he agree that his Princess was | :08:41. | :08:48. | |
wrong? -- his predecessor. Part of the criticism was ill inforled and | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
will have been wrong. That hs not the certainly mean all others of | :08:53. | :09:03. | |
questions were wrong. That hs the purpose of publishing the draft | :09:04. | :09:12. | |
Bill. We are grateful for the input that she and her committee will have | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
contributed. If I can make some progress, we committed to ptt in | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
place a clearer, stronger and fairer devolution settlement for W`les and | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
that is exactly what this Bhll does. The St David's Day process | :09:30. | :09:31. | |
established powers for a purpose. That is powers that can makd a | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
practical difference to the lives of the people in Wales. Their powers | :09:37. | :09:44. | |
being devolved in this Bill will mean the assembly is able to decide | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
on the speed limits of our throats, how taxis and buses should be | :09:49. | :09:57. | |
regulated, how planning consent is given for all but the most repeat it | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
energy projects, amongst many other powers. -- the most strateghc of | :10:01. | :10:10. | |
energy projects. I welcome new powers to the assembly on energy | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
projects, but it is limited to relatively small units. Why is it | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
not extended to those that `re larger? I'm grateful for his | :10:23. | :10:31. | |
long-standing interest in stch matters. But I would point `t 3 0 | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
megawatts is a significant scale, but I will also remind him that this | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
was a recommendation that c`me from the silk commission. That is the | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
foundation for the basis on which we have taken forward that specific | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
recommendation. I will give way Further to that point, does my right | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
honourable friend agreed th`t in respect of wind generation, the | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
SNB's powers will now be unlimited? -- the assembly's powers. It will be | :11:03. | :11:15. | |
limited to 350 megawatts, as stated. The assembly has mature in the 7 | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
years since it was established. That is refunded in the developmdnt of | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
the institution into a confhdent, lawmaking legislature. I'd like to | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
make some progress and then I will give weight later on. | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
In recognition of this, the Bill enshrines for the first timd the | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
assembly and the Welsh government as permanent parts of the Unitdd | :11:40. | :11:51. | |
kingdom's constitutional fabric I will give way in a moment. H will | :11:52. | :12:02. | |
come back to my honourable friend. He was referring to some of the new | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
powers, and which are not ddvolved. Could he explain to the House what | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
the principle behind choosing which powers to devolve and which to | :12:14. | :12:22. | |
retain was? For example, waxs - why is water retained here whild | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
Sewerage is in Cardiff? I whll come onto water and the devolution | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
relating to that later. The honourable member will be aware that | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
the working group has been established, which is considering | :12:39. | :12:48. | |
the decision that has been taken to devolved water. I will commdnt on | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
day -- in detail when I comd to that section. I will give way ag`in. He | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
is being generous. He mentioned what is effectively the incorpor`tion of | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
the sea wall convention into statute for the first time, for the first | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
time as far as Wales is concerned. Calls to the Bill provides that it | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
is recognise that the UK Parliament will not normally legislate to Wales | :13:16. | :13:23. | |
without the consent of the devolved powers. If there were a challenge | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
from the Welsh government as to whether or not that was norlal, how | :13:29. | :13:37. | |
would that be adjudicated? The basis of this clause has been drawn from | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
the Scotland act, and it wotld be a matter for the courts to judge on | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
that. It also underlines thd principle that Parliament is | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
sovereign in these matters. Whereas we will absolutely respect the | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
rights of the assembly, that clause has been included to say th`t we | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
will not normally legislate in devolved areas. If I can make some | :14:01. | :14:08. | |
progress, the debate on the draft Bill, which was published for | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
pre-legislative scrutiny last autumn, will involve justicd issues. | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
It involved the necessity tdst. The inclusion of the test led to calls | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
for a separate jurisdiction. I listened to those concerns. This | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
Bill has moved a long way from the draft version and it is, by general | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
consensus, more suitable. The necessity test was believed to be | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
too high above and calls were made for a lower threshold. They have | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
gone further. I have removed the test entirely when the asselbly | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
modifies the common-law for devolved purposes. -- the criminal l`w. I | :14:51. | :15:01. | |
recognise the validity of some of the points raised jarring | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
pre-legislative scrutiny around the existence of Welsh law. The Bill | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
recognises this formally. There is a body of Welsh law made by the | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
assembly and by Welshman esters forming part of the law of Dngland | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
and Wales within the England and Wales jurisdiction. The recognition | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
of Welsh law needs distinct arrangements. As a result, H have | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
been working with my right honourable friend, the Justhce | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
Secretary, to establish an official sled working group to look `t how | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
those will be improved. The group includes representatives from the | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
judicial office and the Welsh government, and will take forward | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
its work in parallel to the progress of this Bill through this House and | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
the Other Place. The single jurisdiction can accommodatd a | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
growing body of Welsh law whthout the need for separation. If I can | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
finish this point, I will ghve way. There are many reasons why ` | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
separate jurisdiction would be to the detriment of Wales was tp as | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
well as the unnecessary uphdaval and cost, the economic and commdrcial | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
interdependence of the legal profession on both sides of the | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
border means that the separ`tion would undermine the success of one | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
of Wales's fastest-growing sectors, the legal profession. I will give | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
way. I am grateful. We'll bd working group we mentioned earlier be | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
looking at the new justice assessments, included in thhs Bill, | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
and will be working group the reporting before we finally vote on | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
the Bill at third reading? The terms of reference for the working group | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
had been published. I would expect that to be reported in the `utumn. I | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
would also add that the Justice impact assessment is a mattdr for | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
the assembly. It is a matter for scrutiny by assembly members | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
themselves. The principle of having a Justice impact assessment is | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
fundamental to the proper scrutiny of any mature legislature, `nd we | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
can debate that a little but later on when I come to that elemdnt. Some | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
members, have asked me about the comet of the Bill for the Jtstice | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
impact assessment, to accompany assembly bills. I would likd to take | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
this opportunity to clarify the purpose a little further. It is only | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
natural for a mature legisl`ture to consider the consequences of its own | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
legislation. The impact of `ssembly bills are assessed against ` range | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
of factors, including the Wdlsh language, equality and other | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
matters. No formal assessment has been made of their potential impacts | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
of the justice system, which is vital for the laws are being forced | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
properly. It is in the common-sense that any such matters or anx such | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
assessment is considered to contribute to the efficient delivery | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
of justice matters. The Government committed in their | :18:13. | :18:21. | |
Davids Day agreement... I whll give way. This is the key point hn the | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
new impact assessments. Who will make the assessments? I takd it it | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
is a matter for the Welsh Government. What those assessments | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
lead to a trigger whereby the Ministry of Justice can objdct to | :18:40. | :18:47. | |
legislation? It is a matter for Assembly members and the repuirement | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
is the standing order to include a request for a justice impact | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
assessment. There will be no veto that arises out of the Justhce | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
impact assessment. I could give you a practical example. The rented | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
homes act as documents that extend in excess of 30 pages. 15 lhnes talk | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
about the justice implications of the consequences thereafter. The | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
principal rial -- we are repuesting is that fall prospects are locked | :19:21. | :19:35. | |
into. I look into the way the minister responded that camd on the | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
floor of the Assembly some weeks ago. Rather than a general | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
accommodation within the st`nding orders, this is a specific request | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
for a Justice impact assesslent Committed in the Saint Davids Day | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
agreement looked at the boundary for Wales. The reserved powers ,- powers | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
model will look at getting the settlement clearer by drawing a | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
well-defined Barry -- bound`ry between what is deserved and | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
devolved. Anything specific`lly not reserved for the Welsh ministers and | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
it doesn't get clear than that. The scrutiny prompted a wide ranging | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
discussion on what the future shape and structure and devolution should | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
be. The list of reservations including the draft bill was | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
criticised as being too long. We have listened and the list hn the | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
bill contains fewer reservations and I have made the description is more | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
accurate. There is a clear rationale for reservations that are included. | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
The list of reservations will never be a short as some would like but | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
clarity required specificitx. It will be subject to further fine | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
tuning. Broadly we have strtck the right balance in the bill that is | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
before us today. The bill also clarifies the devolution botndary by | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
defining which public authorities are Welsh public authorities or | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
Wales public authorities, ddvolved bodies with all other public | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
authorities being reserved authorities. To add further clarity, | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
the bill lists those bodies which are currently Wales' public | :21:18. | :21:28. | |
authorities applied in constltation with the Welsh Government and the | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
Assembly commission. Naturally the consent of the UK Government will be | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
needed if an Assembly Bill seeks to modify the functions of a rdserved | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
body. This follows the principle that the Assembly approves TK | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
legislation that touches devolved areas through legislative consent | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
emotions. The third key elelent of a close element is the change we are | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
making to the fulgence of Wdlsh ministers. It is hard to believe | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
that Welsh ministers have not been able to exercise, nor powers up | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
until now, unlike ministers of the Crown or Scottish ministers. The | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
bill puts the misjudgement of the 2006 at right. The bill also removes | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
the current restriction on the Assembly being able to modify | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
functions and devolved areas. It lists those functions which Welsh | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
ministers exercise concurrently or jointly and the small number of | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
functions in devolved areas which the Assembly could modify whth the | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
consent of UK ministers. All remaining members of the Crown | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
functions will be transferrdd by order to Welsh ministers. T`ken | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
together, these provisions deliver a settlement that will make it clear | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
who people in Wales should hold to account. The UK Government or the | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
Welsh Government for the decisions that affect their daily livds. I | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
would like to inform the Hotse that there are some minor clarifhcations | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
that have -- that have been made to the notes relating to some of these | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
clauses and the built and rdvised copies and notes are available for | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
members. I will give way. Hd is talking about extra powers but what | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
is he going to do to get th`t across to the people of Wales becatse even | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
under the current settlements, there is still a lot of misunderstanding | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
about who is responsible for what. He raises an important point. The | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
intention of this bill is to provide that parity and from that clarity | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
there will be opportunity for greater communication and all | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
members in this house and stakeholders have that | :23:42. | :23:43. | |
responsibility to help commtnicate it. One of the key functions is to | :23:44. | :23:53. | |
provide a clear line between what the UK Government is responsible for | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
and what don't Welsh Governlent is responsible for so anyone working in | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
Wales clearly knows who to give credit for when policies ard going | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
right but who to hold responsible when policies are the impact of | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
policies and not quite as effective as the policy makers might have | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
thought at the outset. Would he agree that one of the other reasons | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
clarity is so important is to have far fewer examples of the Wdlsh | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
Government and UK Government ending up arguing about things in the | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
supreme court? Would claritx reduce that from happening? That is much of | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
the function and motivation behind many of the clauses included within | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
the bill. It also strengthens Welsh devolution by devolving further | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
powers to the Assembly and the Welsh ministers. To complement thd | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
Assembly's assisting powers over economic development, it devolves | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
responsibility is for ports in Wales. This will consider the | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
development of ports in Walds as part of its wider stretches the | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
economic development, transport and tourism. Major trust ports will | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
remain reserved given their national UK wide significance. Milford Haven, | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
given its importance for thd Everett -- energy security is -- of the | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
whole country is reserved. The bill also streamlines the | :25:16. | :25:34. | |
consenting resume for energx projects providing a one-stop shop | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
for developers by aligning associated consents with consent for | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
the main project itself. Whdn Welsh Government makes a decision on a new | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
energy a worried -- it will be responsible for consenting on the | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
new substations, access roads and overhead power lines relating to | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
that project. Can he clarifx whether great connections will be ddvolved | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
as well? One of the larger projects which the UK does, many of planning | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
consents are local among thd collection to the grid. The purpose | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
of the bill is to give that one stop shop in terms of energy projects and | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
consequences that fallout thereafter. They will be conducted | :26:22. | :26:29. | |
in discussions with the Nathonal Grid. On this specific point, what | :26:30. | :26:42. | |
is the position where an ovdrhead power line is crossing in through | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
England and through Wales? Not just the connection point but a | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
significant part of the powdr line? Is that position clear in the bill? | :26:52. | :26:59. | |
That relates to the National Grid who will have an interest in that | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
matter and I will happily provide further detail to my honour`ble | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
friend if he has specific examples in mind that he would like to pursue | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
further. The bill devolves ` range of further transport powers | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
enabling... I would like to make a bit of progress. I will givd way. | :27:16. | :27:26. | |
Further to the point raised by the honourable member, is it however the | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
case that the Assembly's powers will be limited to 132 kilovolts lines | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
and not the major grid conndctions that he is referring to? He is quite | :27:38. | :27:51. | |
obviously with understanding on this. As we progress, as thhs bill | :27:52. | :27:58. | |
progresses are particularly at committee, we will be able to | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
examine line by nine the consequences of each individual | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
clause. I will write and further detail should my right honotrable | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
friend need further information I would like to make more progress and | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
then I will happily give wax. The bill devolves a range of further | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
transport powers enabling the Assembly to Registry -- leghslate on | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
all aspects of Welsh roads. It will be able to decide what the speed | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
limit should be Welsh roads, the resume for traffic signs and | :28:32. | :28:33. | |
pedestrian crossings on those roads. The regulation of taxi servhce and | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
the regulation of bus services in Wales. There will be further powers | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
on the environment, the Assdmbly can decide whether and how fracking | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
takes place in Wales and Welsh ministers will have a say on whether | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
licences granted the new co`l mining operations. It is difficult to | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
believe that with all the W`les Acts that have passed since 1997 that a | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
Welsh Assembly did not have the power in order to sanction ` new | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
coal mine or not. It needed approval from the UK Government. I whll give | :29:05. | :29:13. | |
way. I have intervened before and this will be the last. What location | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
has it for the transport Commissioner for Wales who will be | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
located in Birmingham? Disctssions are ongoing between the Dep`rtment | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
for Transport, the Wales Office and the Welsh Government about the | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
functions and role of the transport Commissioner. It also serves the | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
West Midlands and Wales as ` nation and discussions are ongoing in | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
relation to that. The Welsh Minister's powers over marine | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
licensing and marine conservation in the area are being extended to be | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
Welsh offshore zone. The bill devolves powers over sewerage and as | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
we committed in the agreement, we will consider the findings of the | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
joint Government review on `ligning the devolution Bantry of water with | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
the National Bantry when it reports its findings in due course. -- | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
devolution Bantry of water within National Bantry. The build devolves | :30:12. | :30:21. | |
further powers and I were not go into detail. The purpose of the | :30:22. | :30:33. | |
second detail. As I mentiondd, the bill devolves further powers that -- | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
stem from the Smith commisshon. These include further powers over | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
equality is, the design of incentives and the security -- | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
scrutiny of Ofgem. We are ghven the Assembly and Welsh ministers a | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
greater say in how the interests of Wales are represented within Ofcom. | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
This is a strong package of further powers that moves well -- Wdlsh | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
devolution forward and can hmprove the lives of the people of Wales if | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
exercised thoughtfully by the Assembly and Welsh Government. I | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
spoke earlier about the Assdmbly coming-of-age and the package of | :31:12. | :31:13. | |
further powers for the Asselbly itself truly gives form to that | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
vision. Through this bill, the Assembly will take control of its | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
own affairs including decidhng arrangements for its own eldctions. | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
It will be able to determind how we are members are elected, thd number | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
of members, the regions used in those elections and who is dligible | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
to vote. As we promised in the Saint Davids Day agreement, the bhll gives | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
the Assembly full responsibhlity for deciding how it conducts its own | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
affairs and regulates its own proceedings. I will give wax. He did | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
say he would get to this pohnt but he hasn't answered the question | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
which I put to him which is not about who would be able to vote but | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
whether or not the bill would give powers to enable the Assembly to | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
introduce compulsory voting if it so chose to do so. It is very hmportant | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
at this stage in terms of clarity that we should know whether the | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
answer to that question is xes or no. I am happy to clarify hhs | :32:11. | :32:21. | |
question. It gives probation for certain foes rather than colpulsory | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
votes. The Assembly is a fully fledged legislator trust with | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
passing laws that affect thd lives of the people of Wales. It hs right | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
that the legislative framework in which it operates reflects this and | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
neighbours the Assembly itsdlf to decide how it conducts its business. | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
The bill also repeals the ndcessary and outdated right of the Sdcretary | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
of State for Wales to participate in the summary proceedings. Subject to | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
the bill's progress, I hope that my attendance at the Assembly hn a few | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
weeks' time will be the last by the Secretary of State for Wales. | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
Something I'm sure members of all parties share and in Cardiff Bay | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
will welcome, probably for lany reasons. Something that will go down | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
well on all sides. A more accountable government, the | :33:09. | :33:17. | |
key feature of a mature leghslature, is that it raises through t`xation | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
at least some of the money that it spends. With power comes | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
responsibility. The assemblx must become more accountable to those who | :33:29. | :33:43. | |
are elected. The stamp duty, land tax and others are the first step | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
towards this. It is only right that a portion of income tax is devolved | :33:48. | :33:57. | |
as well. We will remove the need for a referendum to introduce Wdlls | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
rates of income tax. -- Welsh rates of income tax. The worst government | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
wants the same thing. There are practical issues, as were r`ised by | :34:07. | :34:14. | |
the honourable member earlidr. Particularly how the Welsh block | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
grant is adjusted to take account of tax devolution. Those discussions | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
are taking place, and I expdct them to progress as the Bill passes | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
through both houses. I will give way. Could the secretary just | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
clarify for me, and I possibly should know the answer to this, but | :34:34. | :34:43. | |
on what basis is the tax base made, is it work in Wales? It is residents | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
in Wales. Of course, there will be further technical issues th`t we | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
will want to clarify indiscretion is with the Treasury, the Welsh | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
government and the Wales office Those elements will be conshdered in | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
further detail as the Bill progresses. And as the adjustment | :35:03. | :35:12. | |
agreements are discussed between all parties in this. It is focused on | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
residency rather than where people will work. I will give way. I | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
personally am disappointed that in this cause we have broken a | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
manifesto commitment. I would ask if you who sit on the same manhfesto | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
are equally disappointed th`t you are breaking this commitment. There | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
are two points that I would say First of all, it was the 2004 act | :35:38. | :35:46. | |
that devolved tax varying powers to the assembly. This Bill will go one | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
step further by removing thd requirement for a referendul. But | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
what I would say, the second point, is that devolution has moved | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
forwards. We can either seek to have a hollow argument about rolling | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
back, all we can make the Wdlsh government more accountable, more | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
responsible for the money which it raises. Under current legislation | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
and current arrangements, the Welsh governorate already has | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
responsibility for raising ?2.5 billion of its own income. That is | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
through council tax, business rates and other taxes like stamp duty tax | :36:31. | :36:41. | |
and landfill tax. According to the forecasts by the office of Budget | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
responsibility, the devoluthon of income tax will transfer solething | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
in the region of ?2 billion to the Welsh government. Therefore, this is | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
a smaller sum for which the Government already have | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
responsibility. I will happhly give way. But to continue the pohnt | :37:01. | :37:08. | |
raised by my honourable fridnd is it not the case that only just over 12 | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
months ago, the Conservativd party fought on a manifesto which pledged | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
that there would be a referdndum before any tax varying confhdence | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
was devolved to the assemblx? My honourable friend has played a | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
significant part in the devdlopment of legislation relating to Wales | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
when he was the Secretary of State for Wales. He will recognisd how | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
quickly the devolution make,up of the UK has develop, evolved and | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
bejewelled in that time. Thhs is the next logical step to making an | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
assembly more mature, more responsible but ultimately laking it | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
more accountable to the people of Wales, because it will have two | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
consider how money is raised as well as how money is spent. I will give | :38:00. | :38:07. | |
way. I am grateful. I'm enjoying his speech. house 's enthusiasm been | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
polluted by recent experience, particularly in the alternative vote | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
referendum that we had, and particularly at the present time | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
when it is a choice between who is lies people believe. It is faith in | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
public opinion shaken by thd large number of people who voted to name a | :38:33. | :38:50. | |
boat ten two? -- Boaty McBo`tface? Many of us might have referdndum | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
fatigue as we speak. The prhnciple of devolving taxes, of course, was | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
granted and supported in thd last Bill, the 2014 act. It transferred | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
responsibilities in those areas without a referendum. I think the | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
principle had been established and we're taking it further to the | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
devolution of income tax without a referendum, or removing the | :39:17. | :39:26. | |
requirement for a referendul. I m aware of the time and I'm aware that | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
people will want their contribution. We want clarity and account`bility. | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
It draws a clear line betwedn what is devolved and what is resdrved so | :39:38. | :39:46. | |
people in Wales are aware of who is responsible for the services on | :39:47. | :39:54. | |
which they rely. This is a Bill that will strengthen Wales and the United | :39:55. | :39:56. | |
Kingdom. It further enables the Welsh government to deliver on the | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
things that matter for the people living and working in Wales, and to | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
be held account for their ddcisions and policies. I commend this Bill to | :40:06. | :40:13. | |
the House. The question is, the building -- the Bill be read a | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
second time. It is said that devolution hs a | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
process, not an event, a jotrney rather than a destination. That is | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
true with this Bill. The jotrney has taken longer than it should have | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
done because the Secretary of State's immediate predecessor, seems | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
determined to drivers along a convoluted path, going back the way | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
we had come. This is in spite of an extraordinarily united chorts of | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
navigators, everyone telling him to turn around the other way. Puite an | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
achievement by that Bill to unite everyone against it. It was a Bill | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
so bad it would have made the assembly's job impossible and take | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
on Welsh devolution backwards, not forwards. I'm glad that the right | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
honourable member did eventtally listen, put the brakes on and | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
prepare to change direction. We now have a piece of legislation that, | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
while not perfect, is a marked improvement. Like any lost driver, | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
he can be forgiven for hurlhng some irrational abuse at those tried to | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
offer advice. He told us th`t we were launching some kind of | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
separatist plot, that we had given up on the union, and all of | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
criticism was a for Welsh independence. I hope we can have a | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
more measured debate today. I shall give way. | :41:40. | :41:48. | |
Thank you. She will also relember from the 3rd of February th`t the | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
member actually said this. There is nothing in the draft Bill that makes | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
the Welsh assembly consider whether legislation in a devolved area is | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
necessary. Issue pleased th`t the Secretary of State recognisd that | :42:05. | :42:06. | |
was in his own Bill? It was laughable at times when you realised | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
he had presumably given his approval to it. It was clear we recognise the | :42:13. | :42:19. | |
reserved powers model, which we have in calling for for some timd as it | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
has the potential to clarifx the devolution settlement. We wdlcome | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
each of the new powers in the Bill. I sure party which established the | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
Welsh are simply, Roger C ddvolution powered -- with more devolution and | :42:35. | :42:45. | |
powers. As for the areas thdy already control, the assembly will | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
be able to use these new powers to make different choices that reflect | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
the will of people in Wales. The powers over shale gas extraction | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
will allow the assembly to take into account the real fears that people | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
in Wales have about fracking. Labour is clear that, as the necessary | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
safeguards cannot be met, wd should not be pushing ahead with it. We | :43:05. | :43:13. | |
welcome the powers over planning consent with projects producing over | :43:14. | :43:24. | |
350 megawatts. I hope we'll be getting full devolution of those | :43:25. | :43:26. | |
powers from Secretary of St`te. That would not solve the delays we have | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
with the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon, or judge you to the failure of | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
ministers on the benches opposite to agree a financial framework for the | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
project to proceed. I hope he does everything he can to speed tp the | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
review so we can have this world first in Wales, with all of the | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
positive spin offs for our lan adventuring industry, rather than | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
letting other countries ste`l a march on us. We could call ht a | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
Welsh Parliament. The responsibility for the voting age in Welsh | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
elections means that they could introduce votes at 16 for election | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
to the assembly and councils in Wales. Whatever the assemblx | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
decides, what matters is th`t these decisions will be taken in Wales by | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
elected assembly members. I will give way. What concerns me with the | :44:16. | :44:27. | |
devolution of powers to the assembly with the voting age in governments | :44:28. | :44:35. | |
is that they could vote for -- is that 60 new rods could vote for SMB | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
mothers but not members of this House. -- that 16-year-olds could | :44:39. | :44:47. | |
vote for assembly members. I will give way. She believds that | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
the new electoral legislation will enable the Welsh Parliament or Welsh | :44:54. | :45:00. | |
government to impose compulsory voting in our country. If that is | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
the case, which she supportdd or oppose it? Well, the Secret`ry of | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
State himself has told us that he will be clarifying that for us so we | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
know whether that will be possible. We understand that he thinks it is | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
very unlikely that that will be possible because he has talked about | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
it being people who can votd, but not the system itself. We whll wait | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
for clarification from him to know when we are going on that one. The | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
Bill is designed to strengthen and streamline the current settlement. | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
The assembly is allowed to hntimate current European Union legislation | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
directly, where it relates to devolved matters. That is a sensible | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
development and one which I sincerely hope does not become | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
redundant by the time the Bhll moves to committee stage after thd | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
referendum recess. The biggdst structural change in this Bhll is | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
the move to a reserved powers model, as is recommended by the two silk | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
commission. This should allow the assembly to legislate with greater | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
confidence and with greater regard to the purpose of the legislation, | :46:11. | :46:12. | |
rather than be constrained by uncertainty. This change will bring | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
greater clarity to the devolution settlement and if the governor and | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
gets the Bill right, it shotld result in fewer cases being taken to | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
the Supreme Court. We have `lready seen too much public money spent on | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
such manoeuvres. I work in the important statement of the | :46:30. | :46:36. | |
permanence of the Welsh assdmbly, and the inclusion that the TK | :46:37. | :46:43. | |
Parliament will seek permission before making changes to devolved | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
powers. The assembly has become a fundamental part of our | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
constitutional landscape. In 20 1, the worst people voted for the | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
assembly to have full lawmaking powers. An important sign of | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
confidence in the institution. Together with this Parliament, the | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
SNP should be recognised as one of two significant powers that rappers | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
and the people of Wales. It was the ability to pass laws in devolved | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
areas that the draft Bill ptt at risk in the most unnecessarx and | :47:14. | :47:15. | |
short-sighted of ways. It is a civil fact that as a lawmaking body, the | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
assembly must have the abilhty to change the law. The draft Bhll would | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
have required it to pass a nub of necessity tests before being able to | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
amend civil or criminal laws. According to the Constitution | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
committee, these tests would have created an atmosphere of profound | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
uncertainty. And taken to extremes the exercise of the legislative | :47:43. | :47:44. | |
function could be copper mice. I'm pleased that the governed h`s seen | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
sense and route these tests so that the assembly can amend the law when | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
it needs to. That other tests I will return to later. | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
This means that a less thing to body of Welsh law will continue to grow | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
over time, which does pose ` challenge to the single leg`l | :48:06. | :48:07. | |
jurisdiction of England and Wales. We understand the Justice ilpact | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
assessment are intended to `ccess this point, but it is the c`se that | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
a more long-term solution m`y need to be found at some point in the | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
future. We trust that the working group consisting of the Minhstry of | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
Justice, the Lord Chief Justice and the Welsh Government will kdep this | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
issue under review. Let me now turn to the areas of the bell whhch | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
require more work. I want to deal with the reservations, the necessity | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
test, and the devolution of income tax. It was a common theme hn | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
response to the draft bill that the list of reservations was far too | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
long. Even the Secretary of State's predecessor expressed surprhse at | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
the number of reservations, and in usual admitting given that ht was | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
his belt. This suggested thdre was a lack of a clear rationale for the | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
compilation of that list. I note the list of reservations in this bill is | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
slightly shorter, but the rtns to some 34 pages. The justific`tion for | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
reserving some subjects is far from clear. The root of the problem with | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
the reservations in the draft beer Dilip Clack bill --. In its report | :49:11. | :49:24. | |
on the draft bill, the select affairs committee said the white old | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
apartment should be given clear guidance about the questions they | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
ask themselves before decidhng whether or not to reserve power and | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
that this guidance must be published prior to the publication of the | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
bells or that the final list of reservations can be assessed against | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
it. It is regrettable that no such fresh guidance has been published, | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
which would allow us to dechde whether the list of reservations | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
have been drafted with clear criteria in mind. In response to the | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
select committee's report, the Secretary of State said that the | :49:55. | :49:56. | |
explanatory notes that accolpanied the bill provides a clear r`tionale | :49:57. | :50:03. | |
for each reservation includdd in the list. I'm afraid this is not the | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
case. The expiratory nose are patchy at best. Mostly what is resdrved | :50:09. | :50:16. | |
without saying why. The Secretary of State must be ready to justhfy each | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
of the reservations and present a rational basis for the final list. | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
What is already clear is th`t some of the reservations are unjtstified. | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
The decision to create a spdcial category reserved trust ports is one | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
example. This means in practice that control of every Welsh board would | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
be dissolved to the Assemblx except for Milford Haven. The Government | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
has provided no sensible justification for this. -- devolved | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
to the Assembly. As the bill currently stars, ports which meet an | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
annual turnover climate of 40 by three more years or above rdmain | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
under the control of UK Govdrnment, well those that are smaller turnover | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
would be transferred to the Welsh ministers. There seems to create a | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
perverse incentive, because of Welsh Government masters economic | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
development and smaller boards, which consequently increases and | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
their turnover, it could thdn find it loses control over those ports. | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
Without an expedition we can only assume the Government wants to keep | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
control of the most profitable ports, with a view possibly to | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
privatising them in future, as indeed the Government did consider | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
doing in 2011. Strange that this annual turnover is the same | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
threshold over which ports can be privatised under the 1991 ports act. | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
Previous privatisation proposals have raised serious concerns about | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
asset stripping based better leaders, the fragmentation of | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
boards, and these dangers would be just as real. Turning to thd | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
necessity test, I am pleased the most problematic of these rdlating | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
to civil and criminal law h`d been removed from the bill. This has made | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
the bill markedly clearer and more workable than its predecessor. | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
However, to necessity test remain. In clause three and clause one of | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
schedule seven B. As many whtnesses noted during the Welsh affahrs | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
committee enquiry to the dr`ft bill, the problem with this test hs the | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
uncertainty surrounding the word necessity. A representative from the | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
Law Society described it as certainly not a term that is as well | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
understood by lawyers as a concept. Which raises the potential of | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
legislation being challenged, not just in these have been caught but | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
in the course of other civil and criminal proceedings. Given these | :52:35. | :52:42. | |
very real concerns, would it not be preferable to ditch the 70 test | :52:43. | :52:49. | |
enquiry and retain the wordhng which avoids invoking this legallx | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
difficult concept? -- ditch the necessity test entirely. We welcome | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
the simple file system proposing the bell, but the Government cotld go | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
further. The Welsh affairs committee proposes a 60 day time limit for | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
consent to be given reviews. The change to this effect would give | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
greater confidence, and I would urge the Government to consider `dopting | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
it in law. To turn to incomd tax, the current situation is th`t the | :53:19. | :53:20. | |
Welsh people would have to support these evolution of income t`x in a | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
referendum before the powers to be transferred to the Assembly. This | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
bill removes that requirement, meaning that the Secretary of State | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
could devolve income tax powers via an order in Council, without the | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
Assembly even having to agrde to it. This cannot be right. Allowhng the | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
Assembly to levy taxes as a very significant constitutional | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
development, one which should not take place without a clear | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
democratic decision. So we `re asking the Secretary of State to | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
consider amending the bill to require the Assembly to agrde to the | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
devolution of tax powers before they are devolved. I will give w`y. I am | :53:56. | :54:04. | |
grateful to the Shadow Secrdtary of State. The shadow Secretary of State | :54:05. | :54:12. | |
for Scotland said on the BBC, and I quote, when this bill becomds law, | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
it will present the Scottish people with the opportunity to makd | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
Scotland the various nation on earth. I presume that would be an | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
objective for the honourabld lady counterparty. So why is she | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
dithering on giving her colleagues in the Assembly disempowers | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
astrologer achieve those objectives? -- the same powers as Scotl`nd to | :54:35. | :54:42. | |
achieve those objectives? Ewood focus as ever on the determhnation | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
of his party to become an independent state, regardless of the | :54:47. | :54:54. | |
economic consequences. As I have just explained, what is absolutely | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
crucial is to give the Asselbly the opportunity to negotiate a proper, | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
fair fiscal framework with `nd no detriment principle before `ccepting | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
responsibility for income t`x. It is extremely important that th`t | :55:12. | :55:13. | |
opportunities should be there. I will give way. I am grateful to the | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
honourable lady for giving way, and she mentions what she sees `s the | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
need for the Assembly to consent to the devolution of tax powers. But | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
what about the people of Wales? Given that the people of Scotland | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
were consulted in a referendum prior to tax-raising powers being given, | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
does she not think the people of Wales deserve the same respdct? I | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
think we have moved on sincd the last Wales Bill, but I think what is | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
absolutely vital is that th`t mechanism is there to establish a | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
clear financial framework whth no detriment principle is that the | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
Welsh Assembly can have the confidence to decide if it does does | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
not wish to accept the devolution of tax-raising powers. As I sahd at the | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
outset, this bill is not perfect and will require amendments, but I hope | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
the UK Government will commht to working constructively with the | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
Welsh Government and with opposition parties to ensure that we ddliver a | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
strong, stable, workable settlement for the people -- that the people of | :56:20. | :56:26. | |
Wales deserve. Thank you. M`y I just begin by thanking all of thd members | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
of the Welsh affairs select committee who took part in the | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
pre-legislative scrutiny, and I must say, when the select committee was | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
formed after the last Parli`ment, I encourage members on all sides of | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
the House to join the committee and all that entails of all the | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
interesting things we have been doing in the last Parliament. - | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
told them titles. Broadband, visiting the Welsh speakers of | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
Patagonia and Argentina. Sole of them may have been taken ab`ck when | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
we spent the first year or so just doing pre-legislative scruthny into | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
the Government of Wales Bill, an endless series of academics and | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
experts coming in to talk about legislative consent and the like, | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
but everyone persevered and I am grateful to them for it. I would | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
like to think that we worked in a completely nonpartisan fashhon, | :57:20. | :57:21. | |
offered a number of recommendations that I think the Government have | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
taken forward and I will cole to an moment. I want to say that obviously | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
is a former member of the Wdlsh Assembly myself, I actually oppose | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
it in the first instance. I was very much involved in that referdndum | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
campaign in 1998, when I often heard the argument being made that laws | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
which affect our nation shotld be passed by people who are based in | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
our nation and elected by the people of our nation. I thought it was a | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
powerful argument at the tile and one which perhaps members of the | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
front bench and members opposite might want to think about at the | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
moment. That was certainly the principle that was accepted at the | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
time. I have others had gentine concerns about it, and one of my | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
concerns was that having got the Welsh Assembly, we would have a | :58:08. | :58:10. | |
constant drive to give it extra powers, and that seem to have been | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
what has played out over thd last 17 or 18 years so. My concern was that | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
this could lead to a situathon where the union of the United Kingdom is | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
undermined, and that is why I was actually a supporter of English | :58:26. | :58:27. | |
Votes for English Laws, bec`use I think there has to be some `nswer to | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
the English question. I know the members opposite may not agree, but | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
I think it is for them to come up with another answer to the Dnglish | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
question, because asymmetric devolution where we are givhng more | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
powers, not always the same powers, two different legislative bodies | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
around the United Kingdom while ignoring the largest constituent | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
part is surely not something that will create stability. That was one | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
answer to the question. The other is to come up with, this time finally, | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
a lasting solution, something that will keep us on an even track for | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
years. I think this is what the Government have attempted to do | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
When I go into primary schools, I have been asked about this before, | :59:08. | :59:13. | |
and I try to explain it in ` simple analogy, perhaps. What we h`ve at | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
the moment is a situation where you could almost say that the Assembly | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
is a bit like a legislative Park, apart with a slide and swings, well | :59:23. | :59:29. | |
maintained in its own way, but with no fence around it. What we have | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
seen happening is that membdrs of the Welsh Assembly have been | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
wandering out of the park into slightly dangerous areas, areas | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
inhabited by the people, and other people have been cast bafflhng onto | :59:42. | :59:43. | |
them. What the ministers have tried to come forward is a legisl`tive | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
version of Alton Towers. An enormous theme park with all sorts of things | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
for the members of the Welsh Assembly to be getting on whth. | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
Taxis, buses, sewage, all sorts of other exciting things as well. But | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
with a great big fence around it that. I do them from getting out and | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
perhaps encroaching into other areas or for other people encroaching into | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
theirs. I welcome this as wd move towards stability. As far as the | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
recommendation that we don't bother, I want to quickly go through a | :00:19. | :00:20. | |
couple of them. Obviously the importance of working with the Welsh | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
Assembly to come up with a deal that everyone can live with. I presume | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
that constitutionally speakhng, if there were a majority in thd House | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
of Commons, we could practically do anything that we wanted, but I think | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
all of us accept that we, the Government, by one party, there is a | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
different one in the Welsh @ssembly - the reality is it would bd foolish | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
to go ahead and do something to was Assembly that they did not want | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
Constitutionally it might bd possible, but politically it would | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
just be a nonstarter. So I `m glad that my colleagues accept this and | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
that those talks are ongoing. I am glad they have removed the necessity | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
test. I did get a strong fedling from talking to the legal experts | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
that it just wasn't going to work in its current form. But at thd same | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
time, it is important that the Welsh Assembly is unable to legislate or | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
change criminal or private law in a way that will affect non-devolved | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
areas or people living outshde Wales and England. We have to be lindful | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
of that in all cases. For example, yesterday the Welsh affairs | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
committee held a public meeting to discuss the Severn Bridge, one of | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
the areas which I think is being retained, not least because three | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
out of the four ends are earning one point was made by residents of | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
Gloucester that if the Severn Bridges handed over to the Welsh | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
Assembly, it is used every day by people living on the English side of | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
the border. How are they gohng to be able to raise the concerns they | :01:53. | :02:00. | |
might have over delays or tolling or preparing to Leigh prepayment | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
systems or whatever? They whll have no MP who will be able to t`ke that | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
issue up on them, despite the fact it is an issue that will affect | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
almost as many people in England as in Wales. So these principlds are | :02:11. | :02:18. | |
important. Can I commend thd honourable member, I am listening to | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
his speech carefully, the work of the all-party North Wales group in | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
this House. Which is actually addressing precisely the issue that | :02:29. | :02:29. | |
he has raised. Working with members on both sides | :02:30. | :02:38. | |
of the border to deal with practical issues that affect our we h`ve to if | :02:39. | :02:59. | |
we I'm grateful, sorry, for it might have been he himself who th`t giving | :03:00. | :03:11. | |
England the power to decide over NHS matters who use the NHS in Dngland, | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
and he felt it that English MPs should have the last word on | :03:18. | :03:31. | |
whenever you hand things ovdr, it can of the border can lose out, | :03:32. | :03:32. | |
that's the point I the tax issue is obviously I | :03:33. | :03:56. | |
was in favour and I am in f`vour in principle of having but let's be | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
honest government is very r`rely I am not going to vote against | :04:04. | :04:17. | |
second reading, but I will vote with ministers on this issue. I find I am | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
conflicted. I suspect the l`st thing anyone will want at the momdnt is | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
another referendum on anythhng. I wouldn't like to go back to my wife | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
and tell her that having finished this one we are about to st`rt and | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
throw myself headlong into `nother one. I appreciate that as a personal | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
point of view, but I suspect many people across will steal thd same | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
way at the moment. They really will not welcome it. There must be some | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
way to make sure that the Wdlsh Assembly is unable to go ahdad with | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
this without taking full account of what the public are actuallx | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
thinking. I am very pleased to Mac I will give way. As somebody he | :05:01. | :05:14. | |
cajoled into becoming a member of the Welsh committee and as somebody | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
who spent months scrutinising the draft Wales Bill, is he as | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
disappointed as I am that the referendum issue itself was not | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
available for us to scrutinhse during those many months and many | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
hours in the Welsh select committee? It certainly came through r`ther | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
late in the day, and we madd it clear in the report that we were | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
disappointed we did not havd enough time to scrutinise that, but I | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
suppose that issue is now done. Does the honourable gentleman thhnk that | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
the evidence of the momentul of Welsh opinion is enough for us to | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
forego another referendum, seeing there were only 11% in favotr in | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
1979, but there were 64% in 201 . Isn't this evidence enough that the | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
public will certainly favour the development of the growth of the | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
Welsh assembly's powers? I have to admit I think it is evidencd that | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
the public have accepted thd Welsh assembly, and it is futile to | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
resurrect that particular b`ttle. There will be people taking part who | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
will have been born with a Welsh assembly, the honourable gentleman | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
and myself can remember a thme before. But for some people but does | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
not exist. Even the honourable gentleman can go back a bit further | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
than I can, I believe. I can vent a guest Tim in 1983 and he usdd to | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
come into my school and try to brainwash me. He never succdeded. | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
But we have moved on long w`y. But of course we have to accept that the | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
Welsh assembly is here for good and that brings me back to the point | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
about stability and trying to make this work. One of the points | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
accepted was this one on ministerial consent. Whether Welsh asselbly is | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
looking to legislate in a w`y that may affect England or have some | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
impact on non-devolved areas, they will have two obviously get | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
permission from the governmdnt which I fully accept. We heard th`t when | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
this had been going on, there had been delays with, frankly I think | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
the Welsh spray and in the Welsh assembly for queries and thd Welsh | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
assembly blaming The Welsh Office and I have no idea who was to blame, | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
but we made a recommendation that if the assembly apply for consdnt to | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
the Welsh office, and nothing is given within 60 days, then ht should | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
be nodded through on the basis that nobody has come up with an | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
objection. Although this will not go into the legislation I belidve it | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
will become convention nonetheless. At this point may I make a pitch for | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
something? I have been here a long time and never had a comments are | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
named after me but I think H am right in saying this was my idea. | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
I'm glad the Welsh assembly have the powers to run their own elections. | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
They would, if they wanted to, be able to move out of the Sen`te and | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
relocate anywhere in Wales from the south-east in my own constituency to | :08:34. | :08:43. | |
anywhere in the north-east. And isn't this wonderful? They will have | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
more powers than the MEPs in Strasbourg who can't even ddcide to | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
go and move up to Brussels full-time. So ministers are | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
certainly giving them a really good deal, good legislative themd park in | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
which to operate. So while H do have some concerns, I think in the words | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
of the member for Islington North, I'm going to give this seven and a | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
half out of ten and go along with it for the time being. Thank you very | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
much Madam Deputy Speaker and can icon gradually be honourabld | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
gentleman on his speech and say I agree with one thing he said, and | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
that is the need for an English parliament to balance things out. | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
I'm sure that debate will come forward and he and I will bd on the | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
same side for once. I actually congratulate the government on | :09:31. | :09:32. | |
pausing with this bill. I think it was the right thing to do. H think | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
they got it wrong first timd round. I don't think the Saint Davhds Day | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
agreement was a major declaration of Welsh history, I don't think it will | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
be remembered for that, but it moved us in the right direction and the | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
government listened. I pay tribute to the Welsh select committde, I | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
think they highlighted some of the weaknesses of the bill. I'm sorry | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
that it took 12 months and they couldn't go on to other things but I | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
think it is important in thhs House of Commons before we bring lajor | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
legislation forward that we do have pre-legislative scrutiny th`t many | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
people, two of them to my ldft, fought hard for. So I very luch | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
welcome the fact that this bill has now been changed, major parts of it | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
have been dropped. Not least as might honourable member the Shadow | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
Secretary of State said the necessity test. I think that really | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
was a step too far. Rather than moving forward with devoluthon, the | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
necessity test looked a bit like the old Secretary General giving powers | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
and giving a nod to what thd Welsh government could do and I don't | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
think that sat comfortably. I look forward to improving this bhll and | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
in doing so I think we should act more as visionaries rather than | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
victims. We've had devolution for a number of years and I think it's | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
done a lot of good things. H think the additional powers we get will | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
empower the government 's of Wales to do more good things for the | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
people of Wales and I think that's the idea of devolution. Powdring the | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
assembly to move forward and to take the people of Wales with it. Now, | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
I'm a long-standing pro-devolutionist. I fought three | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
referendums in 1979, 2007, `nd 011, and the score was exactly as it was | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
on Sunday for Wales, 2-1 victory in those referendums. I'm not so | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
confident of the outcome of the referendum later this month, but I | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
hope to be an the Remain winning side. Devolution is about | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
decentralisation, greater ddmocracy, or about nothing. The UK st`te has | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
changed considerably since 0997 I think it's more open, I think it's | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
more democratic and I think it's more decentralised. And I | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
congratulate all parties in this house for playing their parts in | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
making the United Kingdom are more decentralised and more democratic | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
state. I welcome the support from many Conservatives. The member for | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
Monmouth, former member of the Welsh assembly, for his stance th`t he | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
said changed on devolution. Indeed the member who also was agahnst | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
devolution at the time. It hs important to bring people whth us as | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
we move forward in a positive way. Will my honourable friend ghve way? | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
I'm grateful to my honourable friend. Does he agree that `t the | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
convolution of this bill and after the EU referendum the time will | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
genuinely have arrived for there to be a constitutional conventhon on | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
the future of the United Kingdom and its constitution and in particular | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
with relation to the way th`t the nations of the United Kingdom and | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
the devolved institutions rdlate to each other? I'm grateful to my | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
honourable friend who makes an important point. There needs to be a | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
time limit if we have a constitutional invention. Wd do not | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
just want academics producing long papers. We should draw on the | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
experience of the British state as it is today with the degree of | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
decentralisation there has `lways been and look at the English | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
question. I genuinely agree that it really needs to be looked at in a | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
positive way. I do welcome, and I come onto this, extending powers to | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
the regions and cities in England. I just wanted to say before moving on | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
to that point, when I was t`lking about many people who were `gainst | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
devolution becoming now verx active pro-devolutionist is, there are many | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
in this house including the two Nationalist parties who do not think | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
we have gone far or quick enough. I understand that but as a | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
pro-devolutionist, I wonder devolution settlement is to work for | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
Wales, I want them to work for the UK, and I want them to move forward | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
in a positive way, bringing the people of Wales with us. Rather than | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
just having ideologies I thhnk we need practical devolution that | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
works. I feel we are moving forward and I think this bill helps in many | :14:09. | :14:15. | |
ways. To me it is no good jtst having devolution, devolving powers | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
from London to Belfast, London to Edinburgh or London to Cardhff. I | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
want to see devolution spre`d within the nations and within the rest of | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
the United Kingdom. I see some bad examples of that in Scotland when I | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
was on the Welsh affairs select committee, we went up to Scotland. A | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
lot of centralising of servhces I worry about that as a real | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
devolutionist. I think we nded to have better devolution withhn the | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
devolved countries of this `s well as within England to get thd balance | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
right. So I want to see this bill improved. But I do do so ag`inst the | :14:51. | :14:59. | |
background I was given, as hn advocate of practical devolttion. I | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
welcome the development of lore powers. I'm will not deal whth the | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
details, but the areas of ports transport, and areas of energy. I do | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
so as somebody with a specific interest as a member who has a very | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
principal port in it, which has grown, and I have seen the flaws in | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
the devolution settlement h`mpering some of the development in those | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
ports. Some of you recall a new tenant two being built when we had | :15:35. | :15:43. | |
to get permission from the Department for Transport, the Welsh | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
government, one was saying ht was not possible to build within the | :15:47. | :15:55. | |
poor. -- within the port. Whth the Welsh assembly taking over | :15:56. | :15:57. | |
responsibility for those ports it will be able to do so in a practical | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
way and I welcome that. As ` former member of the energy and clhmate | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
change committee I welcome the move forward to devolving powers on | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
fracking, on petrol extracthon, petroleum extraction on land, and I | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
think at see if I am reading the bill correctly, in territorhal | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
waters. I think that is an `rea perhaps the Minister could clear up | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
when he is winding up. I thhnk it is important for the government to have | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
those concerns in the way that it has concerns for offshore whnd, | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
because we need, and I think Wales could be really radical in low | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
carbon energy and low carbon economy, if it's got the tools to do | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
so. I'm somebody, and I will disagree with the member for Newport | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
on nuclear power, but I think we need base-level low-carbon `longside | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
renewable energies, and I think we need the proper mix, and Wales could | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
be a leader in low carbon energy. So I do welcome the consonants to power | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
stations up to 350 megawatts, I think that is a good step forward. | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
But I do have concerns about grid connections because my | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
understanding, I think it is in clause 46 of the bill, when it gives | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
consent to the Welsh governlent but it only consents for the | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
distribution grid, and not the National Grid, and I think that has | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
got measures for 132 kilowatts. So I would like some clarification on | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
that because in my area and many areas of Wales there are National | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
Grid projects going head whhch would have a great impact on local | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
communities and I think the Welsh government and local governlent are | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
best at looking at those rather than the national grid itself, which is | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
an organisation which looks after its own private interests. | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
Can I congratulate the honotrable member on the work he has bden | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
doing, and I share his concdrn that the national grid is really not | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
accountable to the people of Wales, as has been shown in the supposed | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
consultations that they havd carried out extensively without havhng any | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
real consultation at all in our area. I am grateful for that | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
intervention. We have highlhghted in the last couple of years thd | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
importance of the energy regulator as well, having more teeth to deal | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
with it. So we need the regtlator on one side and the consenting | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
authority, which would be the Welsh Government, I hope, and the local | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
authorities so that we could pit pressure on the grid to takd into | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
account the effect and a packet has on the environment and local | :18:43. | :18:44. | |
communities as well is on the national interest when it comes to | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
energy generation. I accept that there is progress here, but I would | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
like clarification on that. It does say in another part of the bill as | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
I read it, I think it is sthll in close 46, that there is a greater | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
duty on the Secretary of St`te to consult with Welsh ministers before | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
amending or establishing renewable energy incentives such as fded in | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
tariffs and again that I thhnk that is important, because the Wdlsh | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
ministers when giving consent will understand what that means for local | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
developers and the total project. And as we going to committed stage I | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
would like to read to detail on what that means -- greater detail, a | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
one-stop shop for energy developers sounds good, but I know when you | :19:36. | :19:37. | |
have multinationals and different levels of developers coming in it | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
will be difficult. I also do, as I said, very much welcome the consent | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
on fracking and extraction. Like other minerals, I think it hs | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
important the Welsh Governmdnt have that. On port consent, I totched on | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
that, but on road transport, again I think these powers are welcome but | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
they do not go far enough. Proper transport, I think we need to have a | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
more into grated transport system in Wales which will exact see, road and | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
rail rather than having it hn a sort of broken up with. -- integrated | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
transport system. I would lhke to see greater powers over rail, and I | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
know the franchises coming tp for Virgin Trains on the West Coast and | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
Arriva trains on the Welsh `nd the Borders. So I think the Welsh | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
Government there hasn't MP ht, but I'd think it could be tidied up a | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
little bit better. -- the Wdlsh Government has an input. Thhs is | :20:36. | :20:37. | |
predominantly an constitutional bill, but has practical implications | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
for Wales other highlighted. I welcome the scrapping of thd | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
necessity test and the consdnt had been simple by, and anything that | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
good, and I welcome the resdrve power. Lots of parties can work | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
together to -- have worked together to establish this, and I welcome | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
that. I do have concerns, and this is where I do argue with my | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
colleagues in the National @ssembly, on income sacks, because I have been | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
involved in another of referendums, and I remember in 1997 fighting that | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
are very close. If we think this European referendum election is | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
close, let's not forget to close the result was in 1997. I remember the | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
differential between Scotland then and Wales, and I believe th`t had we | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
had income tax powers on thd ballot paper for Wales, it would h`ve been | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
a different result. I say that as somebody who is very pro-devolution | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
and arguing the case for devolution as I am arguing the case for Remain | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
in a positive way. I think we have to be delegates how we talk about | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
income tax, and what that rdally means to the people of Wales -- be | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
delicate. If the Government is saying it just introduces it through | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
this bill, without further consultation with the peopld of | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
Wales and without proper financial settlement, then we really `re going | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
to be in trouble, because I don t want to see the situation where | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
there is a huge gap where the blogger -- blog grant is reduced and | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
has to be made up by income tax I am not against the principld of | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
devolving tax-raising powers to the Assembly. We have already done that | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
in the two dozen forging act. I am not against the principle, but I do | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
hold to the principle of consistency in having a referendum when a major | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
competition will change takds place, and I think income tax is a major | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
cause additional change. So that every principle I held in 1897 and I | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
hold no, that they would nedd further debate on because it would | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
be wrong for the UK Governmdnt just to make that decision after saying | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
it would not make that decision in 2014, and indeed the Conservatives | :22:52. | :22:53. | |
themselves were now in a majority here would say that they went to the | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
country and said they did not want income tax powers. I am cautiously | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
concerned about the way in which this has been changed. I will give | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
way. Does the honourable gentleman think that a referendum which asks | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
the question, do you want to pay more or less tax? The result is so | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
predictable it is not worth having been referendum? I understand what | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
the honourable gentleman is saying, he is a Democrat like myself. Up to | :23:21. | :23:28. | |
a point. Well, I am a total Democrat in comparison to my honourable | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
friend. The tax-raising powdrs the Scottish Government enjoys was given | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
in a referendum, and that is my point is, that there has to be | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
consistency on these matters. I will give way. Would he concede that | :23:40. | :23:53. | |
framing a question which is proper and understandable and provhde | :23:54. | :23:55. | |
responses is not an easy thhng? Does he have a suggested wording for such | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
a referendum? I have not thought of the wording, but I agree with the | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
honourable gentleman that ddmocracy is difficult, and you have to make a | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
positive case for things. You have to make things honourable. H did not | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
understand the question of dxtending the powers in 2011 in great detail | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
to explain, but I did along with members of Plaid Cymru argud that I | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
thought the Welsh Government deserved to have powers identified, | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
and deserves to have lawmakhng powers. I think tax varying powers | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
and lawmaking powers are silple questions to have. I might be | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
difficult, as my honourable friend from Newport West side, winning | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
environment, but I think yot have got to stick to principles, and I | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
have been consistent on this matters in 1997 and I do not see how we can | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
just jump into it now after we have had different collections. H | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
understand the climate of fdar with referendums that people find | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
themselves in at this moment in time. But I do want to be r`dical | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
and forward-looking, and thdy want the Welsh Government to be so in | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
what it carries out. So on dlection powers, I just wanted clarification | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
from the minister when he is winding up, and indeed the Government, on | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
some of these. On the issue of varying the age from 18 to 06, I | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
clear that just applies -- that that power is the body Welsh Govdrnment | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
to do so, and it would be in Welsh Assembly elections and Welsh | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
Government on the? If there was a Welsh on the referendum, as on tax | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
varying powers or something else that was well specific, would there | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
be the power for the Welsh Government to vary the age from 18 | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
to 16? Because I am an advocate of this, and have argued this hn the | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
House for some time, and I think this is an opportunity for ts to | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
give those responsibilities to the Welsh Government. On the issue that | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
was raised by my honourable friend the member for Cardiff West, who I | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
know has been campaigning h`rd, the member for Wrexham, on comptlsory | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
voting, I think this is a great opportunity for the Welsh Government | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
to be radical. Let's give them the tools to do the job. If the Welsh | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
Government decided it wanted to have compulsory voting in Wales, I think | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
it would be a good step forward I will give way to the Secret`ry of | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
State. He is making a considered speech, and I am happy to clarify | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
that compulsory voting would be permitted under the bill as rafters. | :26:44. | :26:52. | |
-- as drafted. That is excellent news, on the record, and victory for | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
three backbenchers here that we have the opportunity for compulsory | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
voting in Wales. That is radical. I am hoping that the media in Wales is | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
watching this bill, which is not as dry as dust after all, that it is | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
talking about real issues affecting people including compulsory voting. | :27:13. | :27:14. | |
I'm sure he will reconsider his considered view. I just want to | :27:15. | :27:22. | |
underline that that may well give even more justification for the | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
Justice impact assessments that that legislation will bring about. What I | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
am saying other backbenchers that I am very proud the Welsh Govdrnment | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
will have the opportunity to have compulsory voting. -- what H am | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
thing as a backbencher is. H want this bill to work, for it to be | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
considerably improved, and on the name for the National Assembly for | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
Wales, I think this is a matter for the Assembly itself, but I do not | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
see anything wrong with the name National Assembly. I am not a | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
revolutionary, but I remembdr the French Revolution when I was | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
studying history, and of cotrse the people wanted National Asselbly I | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
am proud, and I know the Frdnch people are, having a Nation`l | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
Assembly, and I think National Assembly itself is a good words and | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
name with a good meaning. It is a sovereign body, and I think the name | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
should be kept, but that is a personal view, because I want to see | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
a strong Wales, a strong Unhted Kingdom, and yes that United Kingdom | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
remain within the European Tnion. But I do agree that this bill will | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
provide some extra tools for the Welsh Government to do its job. I | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
think there has been progress and I congratulate Carwyn Jones for being | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
re-elected as First Minister for Wales, and I hope he will gdt the | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
backing when this comes through committees or that he can continue | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
to do his job and serve the people of Wales with the Labour programme | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
that has been enhanced by the spell. David Jones. Thank you, and a bay | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
again by congratulating the Secretary of State on introducing | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
this bill. -- may I begin bx. That does not mean I am greeted with an | :29:11. | :29:18. | |
unalloyed enthusiasm. This hs the fourth major piece of competition | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
legislation aimed at conferring the world powers in Wales in less than | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
20 years. -- devolved powers in Wales. The fact we are here today | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
debating is yet again shows just how flawed the original devoluthon | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
settlement was and how important it is that on this occasion we try to | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
get it right. At the fourth time of asking. The Secretary of St`te has | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
very kindly prevented a bridfing note on the Wales Bill, and on that | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
note he has acknowledged th`t there is more work to do, that thdre are | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
unresolved issues and unfinhshed business. -- has provided a briefing | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
note. He goes on to say that he looks to amendments to the bill if | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
necessary during his parlialentary passage, and I have to say that he | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
is probably not likely to bd disappointed in that regard. The | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
opening clauses of this bill follow the current fashion for declaratory | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
legislation. We are solemnlx told that the Assembly and the Wdlsh | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
Government are a permanent part of the United Kingdom's constitutional | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
arrangement. We are also told that they are not to be abolished except | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
on the basis of a decision of the people of Wales voting in ydt | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
another referendum. We are told that there is a body of Welsh law which | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
should not be confused in any way, of course, with a Welsh | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
jurisdiction. And we have a declaration that effectivelx | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
incorporates the school convention into statute. The builder clears | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
that this parliament will not normally legislate with reg`rd to | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
devolved matters without thd consent of the Assembly. Declarations such | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
as this are all well and good, but they are in danger of overlooking | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
the cause additional fact that this Parliament is supreme, -- | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
constitutional fact, which lakes one wonder as to their work and whether | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
they are in fact a mere window dressing. It is somewhat ironic that | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
having rightly abandoned thd necessity test, the Governmdnt is no | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
introducing abnormality test, having potential for the courts to intrude | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
into Parliamentary sovereignty by deciding or being asked to decide | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
whether or not is a piece of legislation passed by this | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
Parliament is, so to speak, normal. The bill does of course change of | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
the devolution settlement from a convert powers model to a rdserved | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
powers model, and this is ddemed to make matters clearer. -- because | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
there had powers model. I do not believe that at reserved powers | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
model is the panacea that m`ny contended to be. The reservd powers | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
model is in reality simply ` mirror image of the conferred powers model, | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
and the nature of the model is less important, as other members have | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
pointed out this morning, than the clarity of the language. | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
It is particularly important as to whether the measures are, hdnce | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
That is a danger, if the reservations are not comprehensive, | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
there will be problems. And I'm glad to see, for example, that mx right | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
honourable friend didn't emtlate the failures of his Scottish prddecessor | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
and made sure that Antarctica was a reserved matter, and that wd would | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
not be seeing an attempt to create a new Patagonia on that continent Now | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
the necessity test has been abandoned to the extent that it is | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
no longer the case that the assembly can modify criminal and private law | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
only when modification has no greater effect other than the | :33:15. | :33:23. | |
necessary. That was a posithve invitation to go to the Supreme | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
Court. However there is still a necessity test in relation to the | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
law on an reserved matters. The new subsection three provides that | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
assembly acts cannot modify the law on reserved matters unless `ncillary | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
to a provision which is not reserved, but modification cannot go | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
further than necessary to achieve the devolved objective. Words like | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
necessary and normally lack objectivity, and are therefore | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
subject to interpretation in difficult cases by the Suprdme | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
Court. So I don't necessarily believe that simply changing the | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
model of devolution will necessarily achieve the clarity that evdryone | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
wants. And I believe that dtring the committee stage it will be necessary | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
to test whether or not thosd reservations are truly comprehensive | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
so as to avoid any further difficulties of the sort th`t we | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
have already experienced. Btt the Secretary of State has, to be fair, | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
acknowledged that the bill hs a work in progress and will no doubt be | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
expecting those tests and if necessary amendments at the | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
committee stage. I do not w`nt to dwell lengthily on the individual | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
provisions of this Bill. However there are number of matters that I | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
do believe are of mention. Firstly, as the Secretary of State whll have | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
anticipated from the intervdntions that I have made, I have a huge | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
concern that it is now proposed that the income tax paying powers | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
contained in the 2014 act should now be triggered without a referendum. I | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
have a particular concern as a conservative because at the last | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
general election which, despite the rapid passage of time, was H remind | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
the Secretary of State only just over a year ago, I and consdrvative | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
colleagues campaigned on thd basis that those powers would not be | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
triggered without a referendum. Indeed I was asked specific`lly on | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
the doorstep as to whether those powers would be imposed on the | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
assembly without constant and I made it absolutely clear that a | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
referendum wasn't contemplated. I have to say I believe it is | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
positively disrespectful of the people of Wales to seek to hmpose | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
new tax-raising competence without consulting them first. It is | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
something that was done in the case of Scotland so therefore despite the | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
interventions that have alrdady been made on the other side of the house, | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
it is a question that is perfectly capable of being formulated and | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
indeed in the case of Scotl`nd it is potentially question that is capable | :36:07. | :36:08. | |
of being answered in the affirmative. But if the Scots were | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
entitled to that level of rdspect, surely the people of Wales should be | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
entitled to that level of rdspect. I would invite the Secretary of State | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
to think about that and to consider whether, in the circumstancds, the | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
ill should be amended by thd deletion of clause 16. Secondly and | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
it may appear a minor point, but I'm finding it difficult to unddrstand | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
the rationale for devolving the setting of speed limits to the | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
assembly. Wales and England have got a continuous porous border `nd | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
everyday there are many thotsands of journeys that pass backwards and | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
forwards over border. It dodsn't bear scrutiny, it makes no sense | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
that there should be differdnt speed limits, potentially, on either side | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
of that border. What is the possible reason for devolving the setting of | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
speed limits? Who asked for it? And why is it necessary? And finally, | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
the third point I do wish to focus on is the issue of electrichty | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
generating consent set out hn clause 30 six. I intervened on the | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
Secretary of State with reg`rd to this. The 350 megawatts limht | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
provided for in the bill sedms, on the face of it, to have little | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
practical significance, bec`use it expressly excludes wind gendrating | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
stations. Energy generation consent above 350 megawatts will relain with | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
the Secretary of State, and there are few conventional power stations | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
with an output of less than 350 megawatts. However, the worrying | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
fact is the bill, although silent on the subject, does, I would suggest | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
to the Secretary of State, devolved competence to the assembly for all | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
onshore wind farms with no tpper limit. And I would refer hil to the | :38:08. | :38:17. | |
excellent library note which points out the energy act of 2016 has | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
transferred competence for wind farm concent to local planning | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
authorities. In Wales as thd consequence of a piece of Wdlsh | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
legislation which I am no doubt we are all familiar with, the | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
development of national significance, brackets, specified | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
criteria and prescribe secondary consents, brackets Wales, close | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
brackets, regulation 2016. This provides that all wind farm | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
developments in Wales have been designated as developments of | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
national significance. And this according to the library note and I | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
have no reason to doubt it leans that all wind farm developmdnts | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
weather up to 50 megawatts or over, will be determined by a assdmbly set | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
procedures. Given the thrust of policy at the Department of Energy | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
and Climate Change, I would suggest that the consequence of this would | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
be that there would be a rush to develop wind farms in Wales. Indeed | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
I suggest there would possibly be a free for all. Areas such as my | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
constituency which already have a lot of wind farms, and | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
Montgomeryshire, and Brecon, I believe are likely to be under | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
further pressure for wind f`rm development. I will give wax. I | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
hasten to accuse the honour`ble gentleman of scaremongering here but | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
the reality is the pace of development of renewable technology | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
is very reliant on the subshdy available, which is determined by | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
the Department for energy and climate change. That is not the | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
point I am addressing. I am addressing the issue of competence. | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
Given that the upper limit of competence in Wales for wind farm | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
consents is only 50 megawatts, it is an alarming development that it is | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
now likely to be unlimited. Given the answer that my right honourable | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
friend gave to my interventhon. . Yes, certainly. And very gr`teful to | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
the honourable gentleman for giving way. I have two tanneries in my | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
constituency and the only developments that have occurred has | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
been determined by Westminster. The local planning authority responsible | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
for those below 50 megawatts were turning those down. That max be the | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
case but frankly and with htge respect, I think the honour`ble | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
gentleman is missing the pohnt. The point that I am making is shmply the | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
issue of competence and it seems to be quite clear from the Secretary of | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
State's answer to my intervdntion that what I was putting to him, | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
based upon the library note which I believe is accurate, it was news to | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
him that that was the case. So I would ask in to reconsider that and | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
it may well be that he himsdlf will wish to bring forward amendlents at | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
committee stage. Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is a further step | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
in the process of devolution, and I believe it is a brave attempt to | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
rectify the errors of the p`st. However I have to say that H | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
strongly question whether, hn its present form, this bill does the job | :41:25. | :41:32. | |
that it was intended to. In his briefing note the Secretary of State | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
has anticipated amendments, and I have no doubt he will look forward | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
to them with great anticipation Paul Flynn. Congratulations to the | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
government for the improvemdnts on the draft bill. We have a bhll | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
before us that will be a genuine step forward in devolution. I was | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
very taken by the speech by my honourable friend the member for | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
Ennis born, and talked about Wales not seeing as themselves as victims | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
but visionaries, which is absolutely right, that we go forward on a | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
confident note. We can do that not by having referendums. At the moment | :42:13. | :42:19. | |
the whole system of our democracy is in peril, I believe. Partly because | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
of the debasement of political discourse that has reached ` stage | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
that is the worst it has bedn for a couple of centuries, and thd worst | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
one was in the referendum on the alternative vote. Here was `n | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
advance in the quality of otr democracy, but it wasn't argued on | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
that way, it was argued, as I came in every morning at Vauxhall Cross, | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
the anti-AV voters were told that if you vote for AV, you are thd sort of | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
person that believes in seehng babies die in hospital and our brave | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
soldiers die in Afghanistan. Now that seemed a rather extraordinary | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
argument but that was the argument put forward by those who were | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
opposed to AV. And it was b`sed on the idea that AV was going to cost | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
money, tiny amount of money as it turned out to be, because ddmocracy | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
is expensive, that the first thing the government would do would be to | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
cut the protection soldiers have in Afghanistan, and the money to baby | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
units in hospital. A lie, an outrageous lie, but that's the | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
present quality of Parliamentary debate. I am grateful to thd | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
honourable member for giving way. Would he therefore like to diss | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
associate himself from suggdstions that voting for independencd from | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
the European Union would le`d to world War three and the collapse of | :43:56. | :44:03. | |
Western civilisation. The rhght honourable member would find that I | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
made this exact point in thd newspaper, next to a column by the | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
honourable gentleman, I might say. I thought he might have had the grace | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
to read my column if he didn't read his. It was rather better written, | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
although I am slightly biasdd on this. I made the point in that | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
article that, we are in a shtuation where I am embarrassed by the lies | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
of those people on my side, the same as I treat with contempt thd lies on | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
the other side. And that is the choice that the public has, whose | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
lives will you vote for next week? Order. While I am certainly enjoying | :44:41. | :44:47. | |
the honourable gentleman's speech, the chamber would appreciatd it if | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
he addresses the matter in hand which is the second reading of the | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
Wales Bill. I understand th`t he is giving some illustrative ex`mples in | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
order to come to his point, but I'm sure he will come to his pohnt quite | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
soon. In this bill is a question of how we deal with income tax. And I | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
do challenge anyone to go through this, imagine some future d`te when | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
there will be somebody for `nd somebody against. It is unwhnnable. | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
It is impossible, impractic`l to suggest that there is going to be | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
some choice on this, that there will be people marching down the street | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
with banners saying, what wd want? More tax! When do we want it? | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
Yesterday! That's not going to happen. It's so unlikely th`t it's | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
not worth wasting money on ht. We are in a situation where thd public | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
are in a strange anti-polithcs mood, and it is deep and it is profound. | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
They are more interested in jokes and making trivial points than they | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
are in taking the leadership that we offer as politicians. It is damaging | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
to ourselves. The example e`rlier about the boat, where the ptblic | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
showed their content in that way, and we are in a position whdre the | :46:09. | :46:16. | |
democracy that we have put forward, I have long supported proportional | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
representation. I camera melber the honourable gentleman and his party, | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
for two of the elections we have had in Wales in my time here, the | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
Conservative Party secured 20% of the Welsh vote and couldn't have a | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
single representative out of the 40 Welsh MPs. So that was a distortion | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
of democracy that we put up with here. But we all believe in our own | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
forms of democracy and the way they are progressing. But here wd've got | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
something remarkable in Welsh devolution. In 1886 there w`s a | :46:50. | :46:59. | |
founding in the city by a couple of Welsh MPs seeking a form of | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
devolution for Wales. It's been a long, slow progress. In 1888 the | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
Welsh Parliamentary party w`s formed. It still exists, as a rather | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
spectral, occasional existence, but it still goes on. It has met in the | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
last five years. But we got through that period, and it is one of the | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
joys of my political life, one of the things I feel fortunate about, I | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
am in the generation of MPs, all those ones who went from thd 18 0s | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
forward trying to achieve ddvolution and made no progress whatsodver and | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
in our generation now we have got there. | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
It has been a process that has been a very slow one, mainly bec`use of | :47:42. | :47:50. | |
the power attentive features of this House who do not want to part with | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
any. They are jealous of wh`t is happening. Now is the time H believe | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
to make progress on that and to give the Welsh Assembly certainlx the | :48:03. | :48:04. | |
dignity of making more of their own decisions and having a titld that | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
befits them. I think it is interesting that we are at ` stage | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
where, for the first time in history, we have two ministdrs and | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
two frontbenchers on our side who are all Welsh speakers. That has | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
never happened before. We are still in a situation where the st`tus of | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
the Welsh language in this House is the same as spitting on the carpet. | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
It is out of order. It is dhsorderly behaviour. If I was to turn to Welsh | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
know, you would quite rightly have me ordered out of the House, which | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
is not a way to treat one of the beautiful language is of thdse | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
islands, and it should get that dignity, which I am sure will come | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
about. The point I want to lake on this bill is generally to accept it, | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
but to say that we should not follow this very limited restriction in the | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
bill of allowing the Welsh @ssembly to adjudicate only on those... Yes? | :49:02. | :49:12. | |
A great speech as ever. It strikes me in Scottish issues that this | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
ultimately boils down to whdre Welsh powers reside? In Wales, whhch is | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
the most democratically elected for Welsh opinion, or do these powers | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
come to Westminster? And surely anybody who has a modicum of trust | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
in the Welsh people will understand that they can make a better decision | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
for themselves than Scots are English MPs can. I agree entirely | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
with the honourable gentlem`n. I took part in 1953 and a march in | :49:40. | :49:46. | |
Cardiff carrying a Labour P`rty banner that was not saying we want a | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
half Parliament, but a fool Parliament. -- a fool Parli`ment. It | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
has been part of my politic`l life. Something that the disease le about | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
this is that without tiny mhnority movement then in 1953. -- something | :50:04. | :50:11. | |
that enthuses me. In 79, in a very painful referendum result - we | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
scored less than 12% of the vote in Wales, which was very emphatic | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
rejection - and then when it came to the referendum in 97, it was | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
absolutely knife edge. About 0. % majority. But it then has gone on | :50:29. | :50:37. | |
from that to the last major public opinion in Wales when it was 64 . I | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
think we can accept that, and that was to get considerable powdrs to | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
Wales. We can accept that momentum is there and we can go ahead and | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
give Wales the tax-raising powers that any dignified self-govdrning | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
Assembly should have, withott necessarily going to the people for | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
a referendum that will be in the hands of the Crosby is, the | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
lobbyists, those were not tdlling the truth. The point he has just | :51:02. | :51:10. | |
made, when people have the experience, free from the mddia | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
skier stories, the experience of making decisions for themselves it | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
only grows in popularity. When you contrast Cardiff to Westminster it | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
seems to be that Cardiff is coming out on top every time. I thhnk the | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
gentleman is absolutely right, of course. As my honourable frhend | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
said, let's think of ourselves not as victims, because it is | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
debilitating to be upset of the sense of victimhood, but to think of | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
people going forward as victors in the future, and that is the way we | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
should be going. -- it is debilitating to be obsessed with a | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
sense of victimhood. 1.I wanted to pick him up on is that I thhnk the | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
Welsh language is being tre`ted with a good measure of respect and no, | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
being used in the select colmittee no. -- now. In the business | :52:00. | :52:09. | |
questions last week, when hd was emphatically turned down by the | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
Leader of the House, a senshble discussion to be had on that. I am | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
aware of this, and of coursd it has been a huge success in the Welsh | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
Assembly itself, were the l`nguages used freely and in a relaxed way, | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
greatly to the benefit of W`les I believe. The road point I w`nt to | :52:26. | :52:35. | |
make about the bill, -- the route point, I believe it will restrict | :52:36. | :52:43. | |
our ability to use our main source of power, the North Sea oil. It is | :52:44. | :52:54. | |
entirely predictable, not lhke wind or solar power. We know when it will | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
happen. It can be tapped in so many ways. We have already used ht, to | :52:59. | :53:11. | |
our credit, in Hydro power. The Hydro Power station would bd too big | :53:12. | :53:21. | |
for the Welsh Assembly to the rise. Another one is 1800 megawatts, and | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
these are the wonderful way of power entirely demand responsive. You can | :53:28. | :53:36. | |
use it at peak hours to pump the water up to levels and then bring | :53:37. | :53:39. | |
about them. The greatest ch`nce we have for Wales to produce power in a | :53:40. | :53:47. | |
way that is entirely non-carbon is by use of the tides, and whdre are | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
we with this restriction? The Swansea Bay lagoon would be just | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
within the 360 megawatts lilit, but the new port of, both start from the | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
river Rusk, one in the direction of Cardiff and one the other w`y, they | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
are 1800 megawatts, but thex have enormous potentiality, and the | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
resources are there, the topography is perfect for it. I was very | :54:19. | :54:26. | |
pleased to... Yes, of coursd. He is making some very valid points, but | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
does he agree that the huge investment that was seen in storage | :54:30. | :54:36. | |
technologies actually makes renewables ready to seriously take | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
off? This is one area in Wales that would be hugely beneficial to our | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
economy. It is an undiscovered resource. I know there are | :54:47. | :54:48. | |
objections to various other forms of nuclear power, I am just about to | :54:49. | :54:59. | |
come to know, in that this scheme will not allow any control of Wales | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
on Hinkley Point, which is very close to us in Wales, almost | :55:04. | :55:15. | |
certainly doomed no. But thdse small... They will be outside the | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
scope. If people wanted to go down the line on nuclear power. We should | :55:22. | :55:28. | |
allow the Welsh Assembly, the visionaries of the Welsh Assembly, | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
to go ahead and develop powdr. It is short and enormous resource, and we | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
could be a last position for ourselves and for the Hall of the | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
United Kingdom. -- it is such an enormous resource. He is making very | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
good points. Does he find it telling that I considered it has bedn plan | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
to start a hydroelectric scheme that would avoid the bureaucracy of | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
coming down to London, and now that change is afoot, it is talkhng about | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
going up to 350? Why should they be constrained by what seems to me to | :56:04. | :56:04. | |
be completely arbitrary limhts? These places exist, they enhance the | :56:05. | :56:20. | |
beauty of the sea, not to ddtract from it in anyway as the wind | :56:21. | :56:31. | |
turbines do. There are thesd three great storage schemes in Wales that | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
are entirely acceptable and fit in with the beauty of the hills, | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
improve because of the lakes that are there, there is no sign of any | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
pollution of any kind. It is a way forward. In 63 the two main ones | :56:44. | :56:54. | |
were built. It is a long tile to be manufacturing elegant city from a | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
wholly benign source without appreciating its value. -- | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
manufacturing electricity. The people of the Welsh Assemblx should | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
be in charge of this, these are the people who should decide on power, | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
and we can be a great sourcd of power generation in a way that is | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
wholly British, where the source of power is free and will last | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
eternally, and is entirely predictable. I hope this pohnt will | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
be considered. I think generally of we go forward with this bill, with | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
goodwill from all over the House, remember the story of devolttion in | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
Wales and to Wales has grown up and can stand tall among the nations of | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
the world. It is a matter of pride to see the development in the Welsh | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
Assembly, in that beautiful building in Cardiff, and we have just opened | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
a centre in Newport where there is a marvellous porn that is embossed on | :57:53. | :58:04. | |
the site of Friars walk -- ` marvellous poem, based on the | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
struggle of Wales for our rhghts over the years. He writes about the | :58:08. | :58:19. | |
cold rain stinging their faces, going to Cardiff for somethhng they | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
believed in, and 20 of them were killed, shot outside the Westgate | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
will tell. That is commemor`ted today in Friars walk. She t`lked | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
about the rise of devolution and said that they stormed the doors to | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
set their comrade free, and shots were fired, and freedom's dream was | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
broken. 50 wounded, there are leaders tried, condemned, | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
transported. The movement in disarray for 50 years. Then came at | :58:53. | :58:59. | |
last that shift of power, one spoonful of thin gruel at a time, | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
from strong to week, from rhch to power, from men to women like Abu | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
graduate gift. The begrudged gift keeps on giving, but now we have | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
another example of it. The gruel is a little thicker and the spoon is a | :59:16. | :59:24. | |
bit bigger. Thank you, Madal Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
the honourable member for Ndwport West. Firstly I want to beghn by | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
thanking my right honourabld friend the Secretary of State for Wales and | :59:34. | :59:42. | |
his predecessor, my honourable friend for Pembrokeshire. The | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
constructive way they have worked across party divide to ensure this | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
is a positive process for the people of Wales. Last time I may not have | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
started out being one of thd great advocates of devolution, I lust say | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
that over my four years as ` member of the National Assembly, I have | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
come to realise that the delolition reprocess the something that is | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
important not just too much political life, but to Welsh | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
cultural and national life on many levels. -- the devolution process. I | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
look forward to scrutinising the passage of this bill as it loves | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
through this House. I'm going to talk ruefully on a topic th`t has | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
been well exercised to do -, talk briefly, and that is taxation powers | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
for the Welsh Government. There is a famous American slogan that there is | :00:38. | :00:46. | |
taxation is not representathon. I am concerned the new tax powers will | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
receive no seal of approval from the people of Wales, no representation | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
from the people of Wales. The people of Wales have been able to debate, | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
discuss and have informed discussions on their future, model | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
what they want their democr`cy to look like, and that led to the | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
creation of the National Assembly and a lawmaking powers for Wales. | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
Taxation powers is a major step in the process of devolution, `nd | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
deserves the same level of debate and discussion. I have alwaxs | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
worried about the level of scrutiny, certainly while I was there at the | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
National Assembly, but not just in the Assembly but in Welsh political | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
life, where there is limited media and limited political analysis. This | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
is part and parcel of the Assembly being the young institution and is | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
in a process of finding a dhstinct place in Welsh life, and its own | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
process of scrutinising the remit and debating major issues. The huge | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
sea change in the level of scrutiny is something that has struck me | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
since I have become a member of this House. One cannot fail to bd | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
impressed by the extremely warm and detailed process of scrutinhsing | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
bills through the size. -- the extremely long. I might mention for | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
example the Investigatory Powers Bill that has just been before the | :02:11. | :02:18. | |
House is a key example of this. We had a constructive debate not just | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
about the bill but about society, technology, and issues of privacy | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
and scrutiny in a world that is becoming more dangerous. It | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
highlighted the crucial rold of a constructive opposition that wanted | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
to progress a piece of legislation, and highlighted the significant role | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
of the backbench MPs, reflected positively on a Government that | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
wanted to engage in the process with all parties to have the verx best | :02:41. | :02:42. | |
This is the process missing in piece of legislation. | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
This is the process missing in Wales. There has until now been very | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
little in the way of backbench scrutiny in Welsh legislation. With | :02:54. | :03:01. | |
this bill essentially nodded through, and serious amendmdnts | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
refuse simply because of thd fact they come from an opposing party. It | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
has simply been a case of, this is the legislation, it is what we want | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
is a government and it is the way it is going to be. This is not the way | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
a constitution that has major powers over everyday life in Wales should | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
be run. We do not need a wider debate in Welsh society and | :03:23. | :03:29. | |
political life about our delocratic processes. I am making this as a | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
genuine cross-party point and I m sure that members from all sides | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
would agree, the need to discuss these issues to ensure the | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
devolution process... I will give way I heard what he said about | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
scrutiny in the assembly and this place and I chaired the | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
investigating powers bill. Does he agree with me that one of the | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
reasons that scrutiny is lighter in the assembly is because thex have | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
fewer members? And that is `n issue, members not from the bench `nd the | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
executive. And does he think we should look at this in this bill as | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
it progresses, the number of assembly members? Thank you for that | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
intervention and it is a difficult question. Do we increase thd number | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
of assembly members? Partictlarly in the current climate where wd are | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
scrutinised for the amount of money we spend in politics? It is a | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
difficult question and one H toyed with and had great difficulty coming | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
to terms with when I was thdre. The honest truth is that if we `re going | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
to have proper scrutiny then we will have to consider increasing the | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
numbers because I do accept that many of the members are of course in | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
government and unable to scrutinise. Will my honourable friend ghve way? | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
Is it not right that we shotld be debating that and that's thd whole | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
point about the electoral arrangements, and the assembly | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
should make these decisions, not this chamber? My honourable friend | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
makes a good point and I wotld agree. This is what concerns me | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
regarding taxation powers. Welsh people have not had the chance to | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
hear the arguments, the deb`te with their neighbours and friends, or to | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
discuss with their local politicians what these new powers will lean for | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
their lives. These powers are significant not just to famhly lives | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
but also to the economic future of Wales. I felt that the Welsh public | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
deserves a major discussion about this. The most crucial of issues | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
which will affect their livds on a day-to-day basis. I made my points | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
regarding how we view the assembly and how it scrutinises the Welsh | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
government. I hope that I'm forgiven for going into my concerns regarding | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
the Welsh government. The previous Welsh government was completely | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
adverse to any scrutiny. I saw this first hand and as a member of it | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
until May last year I saw Compleat lack of one from the governlent to | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
hear an opposing view or discussed a solution. This led to an appalling | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
running of certain services, complete lack of integrated | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
transport system for exampld. Legislation that was not to the | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
standard it should have been, scandals such as the regeneration of | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
the fund for Wales. This is where the Welsh government scandalously | :06:26. | :06:34. | |
sold land massively undervalued and deprived Welsh taxpayers of key | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
revenues, but also highlighted the inadequate processes governlents | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
have made for public assets. This leaves me deeply sceptical of that | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
government's ability to control billions of pounds in revente that | :06:49. | :06:56. | |
they must console raised thdmselves. It would be remiss of me and this | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
house if we did not consider issues such as this which are absolutely | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
crucial to our constituents. As it stands in this matter I am | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
completely unconvinced of the Welsh government's ability to run the | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
Treasury. This is a governmdnt that has chronic and long running issues | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
with the ability to run projects and I feel uneasy about giving them such | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
powers. Therefore I hope th`t the Secretary of state can assure this | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
house that there is a clear process in place to ensure the Welsh | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
government is prepared and dquipped to use these powers in a wax that | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
befits the Welsh people. I look forward to scrutinising this bill | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
going forward. I know this bill could not be in better hands than my | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I know they | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
will listen and speak to melbers to make sure the benefits to the people | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
of Gower and the rest of Wales, but above all confidence in further | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
devolved powers to the people of Wales. Chris Evans. Thank you madam | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
Deputy Speaker. It is a ple`sure to be called today. Madam Deputy | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
Speaker this bill is the latest in a long line to be presented to this | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
house since the establishment of the Welsh assembly. Subcommission part | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
one resulted in the Wales act 2 14. Part two results in the bill before | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
us today that was covered in the famous great Saint David st`te | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
agreement which I am sure schoolchildren will be disctssing | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
for the next 50 years. It rdpresents to me the latest part of a long saga | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
of political tinkering around the edges of devolution in Wales which | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
has been a constant theme in political circles since the | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
establishment of the Nation`l Assembly. Devolution has brought | :08:46. | :08:47. | |
with it the possibility that Wales can make its own choices and go its | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
own way with its own governlent elected by the people of Wales. The | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Welsh government is entrustdd by the people of Wales to act in its | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
interest and I'm confident they have done it so far. However I do believe | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
that there are vast swathes of Wales that have been turned off bx the | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
constant political debate about constitutional arguments. It almost | :09:11. | :09:12. | |
seems like the argument goes that once we have powers to Wales, all | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
the problems in Wales will be solved. That, Madam Deputy Speaker, | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
is a simplistic view of a complicated situation. What we need | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
is certainty in the Welsh constitutional settlement that will | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
last longer than a few short years or the next commission that is | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
funded by the government. Although the bill before us is much better | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
than the previous one, and ht did have problems like many members | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
already suggested, like the necessity test. To me it was a | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
simple question of a lack of understanding of devolution. It was | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
treating Wales like one of the Commonwealth outposts. The Secretary | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
of State for Wales would dotble up as the government general. H was | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
also delighted, as so many people will be, that a further refdrendum | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
for taking income tax powers has been taken out of this bill. I, for | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
one, look forward to June the 2 rd and the end of another referendum. | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
It seems to me that until wd settle this matter of constitution`l | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
certainty once and for all, considerable time and, yes, | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
political opportunity spent arguing the merits of further consthtutional | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
change. For somebody who cale into politics to change the world I do | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
not want to waste the next five years as we have the last 14 | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
debating the dry subject of constitutional reform. And ht | :10:35. | :10:42. | |
doesn't only turn-off the pdople, it also costs money. When the | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
subcommission were set up bx the then Secretary of State for Wales it | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
gave a budget of around ?1 lillion. Overall the Wales Office and spent | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
?1.3 million on the subcommhssion between 2011 and 2014. If wd do not | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
show ambition with this bill and leave more to be argued and debated | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
for years to come, what will the debate be? How many more colmissions | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
will we need to create? Freddom of Information request to the Wales | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
Office found that the 2011 referendum on powers to the National | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
Assembly was expected to cost upwards of ?8.2 million. How many | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
more referenda will we need to go through, and at what expensd, before | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
we reach a final constitutional settlement? Madam Deputy Spdaker, | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
the real question, and the real test of any Wales Bill or any bill that | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
comes before this house is what in this bill will speak to the people | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
of Wales and address their day-to-day concerns? Although | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
support for further powers for Wales is strong, with 43% of respondents | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
to the BBC ICM Saint David poll this year saying the National Assembly | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
should have more powers, only one in three saying things should stay as | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
they are, the issue does not enter the daily lives of my consthtuents. | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
I cannot recall a single incidents where a constituent has written to | :12:06. | :12:07. | |
me regarding the Welsh constitutional settlement. Not a | :12:08. | :12:15. | |
single person spoke to me about the Welsh bill. Williams, Smith, all | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
these people have entered the lexicon of the commons area are | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
matter constitutional reforl but to the people on the streets it means | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
absolutely nothing. To me, having read this bill, it is very little | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
wonder people have switched off on issues with so little relev`nce to | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
their lives. The dry subject of constitutional reform might float | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
the boat of commentators and politicians but it is simplx not | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
something people are talking about on the doorsteps. The prospdct that | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
Wales may switch to reserve powers might have excited some, and the | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
necessity test may have exchted some here and in Cardiff Bay. I have to | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
say that the people on Blackwood high street today, my own | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
constituency, trying to feed a family on a shoestring budgdt, | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
signing on in the job centrd, or desperately trying to find ways they | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
can make do with disability payments being lashed away, care verx little | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
for this Wales before us today. One element of this bill that would have | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
a direct impact on my consthtuents, that being the devolution of some | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
but not all income tax powers to the assembly. I have long been `n | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
advocate of regional taxation. I genuinely believe the challdnges we | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
face in Wales are different to the ones faced in London which hs an | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
economic powerhouse, to those in the north, in Scotland and other | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
regions. However, I have to say as we pull ourselves to pieces over | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
whether we devolve income t`x or not, whether we have a referendum or | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
not, he's nothing if you look at the Scottish model, who have never used | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
income tax all used that power given to them in 1999. It seems moot | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
point. The fact of the mattdr is this. We are an economy heavily | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
based on the public sector. We are like Northern Ireland and the | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
north-east. If we start to be allowed to reduce income tax rates, | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
we might start attracting entrepreneurs to the Welsh dconomy. | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
It seems to me a contradicthon in terms that Northern Ireland, which | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
I've said, is very much likd Wales in the fact it has high public | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
sector unemployment, less businesses, it is allowed to slash | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
their own tax in the hope of attracting more businesses `s their | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
neighbour in the South has done Why has worked for Northern Ireland to | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
have the powers for corporation tax when Wales does not? Although it is | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
true Northern Ireland has a land border with the Republic with | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
notoriously low corporation tax Ireland is only a short distance | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
from Wales, we are competing them. We can get to Ireland and b`ck in | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
one day yet we are not allowed to compete. They will be allowdd to | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
reduce their corporation tax, attract massive businesses to come, | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
they are creating jobs, while we are fed the scraps. Yet again it seems | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
Wales is being forced into the role of poor cousin. The decision here is | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
this. We either want a powerhouse economy, moving forward, attracting | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
high-tech, high skills jobs, all we want to continue to be reli`nt on | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
the public sector and grants from the public union, reviled Ellie | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
regardless of the EU referendum That is no future for the pdople of | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
Wales. Wales is a country whth access to cutting-edge technologies | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
and a skilled workforce. General dynamics in my own constitudncy BEA | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
Systems underlying this, and they accept some of the finest mhnds from | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
our universities. But how c`n we attract more good people unless the | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
government is given a leave of corporation tax to encouragd more | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
large businesses to come to Wales? Bringing jobs with them. And the | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
lever of income tax so people have more money to spend on the high | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
Street. I believe this is the way forward. In terms of the rest of the | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
bill, again it seems there hs work from the officials in the W`les | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
Office, Ministry of Justice, Welsh government, the prospect of | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
jurisdiction. To me that is legislation for legislation's state. | :16:30. | :16:38. | |
It has been maintained for just 500 years. I believe the tinkerhng | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
around the edges of that catse more problems than solved. We must commit | :16:42. | :16:51. | |
to wholesale spending changd. Those are the questions we should be | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
asking in this bill and we `re not. We are just tinkering around the | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
edges. We will be back here in two to three years' time with another | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
Wales Bill which will cause more constitutional uncertainty, more | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
arguments. People are just not interested. It seems to be the | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
message should be from this bill could have been so much mord. Could | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
have settled once and for all the constitutional argument for Wales. | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
It could have allowed the constitutional arguments to be put | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
aside and align to be drawn under so that we can get on with the things | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
that really concerned peopld. Education, transport. The bread and | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
butter issues affecting famhlies in constituencies all across W`les | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
It represents yet more tinkdring around and argument. There has to be | :17:38. | :17:45. | |
a recognition that when we discuss in this place, it is far reloved | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
from what people are concerned about in Wales. While I support this bill, | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
I am extremely disappointed. It could have been so much mord. It | :17:55. | :17:56. | |
could have brought about thd ambition that we need in Wales. | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
Craig Williams. Thank you, Ladam Secretary Speaker. Can I st`rt by | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
thanking him very much for what has been a fascinating insight hnto the | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
previous Wales Bill and the new Wales Bill that has been brought to | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
the House today to start is journey. The pre-legislative process was | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
certainly an insight into how legislation is put together, but | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
perhaps more broadly, the ddvolution journey that we have been on since | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
the creation of the National Assembly for Wales. I am extremely | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
grateful to the Secretary of State and his team for the amendmdnts | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
brought to date, from what was the privilege is to build what we have | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
before us today. The 70 test, dropping back is very welcole. - | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
the necessity test. The removal of many others very welcome indeed I | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
look forward to working with my colleagues on the Welsh aff`irs | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
cross-party in the size as we go through the committee stage and this | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
bill goes through the House, to what we can do to approve it mord. - to | :19:07. | :19:15. | |
improve it more. I want to start with income tax and move more | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
broadly to the bill later on. I support this bill in its position on | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
income tax. I wanted to mord broadly talk about, I think the horse has | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
bolted a little bit on this, if you look at business rates and council | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
tax receipts, they are over ?2 billion worth of income is `lready | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
being raised and is already devolved to the Welsh Government. Th`t is | :19:40. | :19:41. | |
more than income tax and th`t allows the Welsh Government a bit of | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
accountability, and the Wellcome -- I Wellcome - the more accountability | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
we can get to that instituthon the better. Someone touched on the more | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
worrying aspects of the confidence of the Welsh Government to date and | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
it has, I am afraid, the Labour led since the creation of the Assembly. | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
I find it very difficult in my head, and I can see where the passion | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
comes from inside my colleagues to separate what is essentiallx my | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
heart saying, no, do not give the Welsh Labour Government any more | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
power, because they have got to prove competence on education, | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
health, economic development, and my head saying, no this is a vdry | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
principled debate between the devolution journey and the powers | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
this size needs to get to the Welsh Assembly as an institution. I find | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
that journey in my head, th`t fight between the very poor performance | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
versus the more principled, the local is agenda. -- localisl agenda. | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
I was taken by the more pragmatic approach to some of these b`ttles | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
around devolution. I want to focus on that fact that income tax is very | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
welcome, it is about transp`rency, accountability, but we are `lready | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
they are with those at business rates and council tax being over ?2 | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
billion of revenue stream that the Welsh Assembly can bully controls. | :21:14. | :21:23. | |
-- fully controls. How confhdent is my honourable friend are behng asked | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
to break a manifesto commitlent I can say I'm ever comfortabld with | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
breaking a manifesto commitlent but I have said passionately to the | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
general election and before that, I have the consistency to my | :21:39. | :21:40. | |
electorate that we need accountability in the Welsh | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
Assembly, and more importantly in Welsh Government. My constituency | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
more than most have seen first hand some of the real scandals of | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
complacency in terms of the scandal that was mentioned. The land sale in | :21:54. | :22:02. | |
Lisvane sold Guirado cultur`l some of the most expensive land. Until it | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
is shaken up I believe we whll continue in the same vein. H have | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
made that statement very publicly to read my ten years as a candhdate and | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
in this House. I expect the wider point about the manifesto, but the | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
people of Cardiff North and the people of Wales bid us your Jamaican | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
popular and difficult decishon as well as the popular and easx | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
citizens. -- put us here to make popular and -- unpopular and | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
difficult decisions. You have already stated that her constituents | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
are unhappy with what has already gone on under the Welsh Assdmbly, so | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
do not agree with me that the timing of this bill is not right as of yet? | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
That the Welsh Assembly get their house in order before we pass them | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
even more commitment? Can I thank my honourable friend for one of his | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
classic interventions, and can I say that I did touch on this about the | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
journey, the heart and the head issue of this. I disagree | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
fundamentally with a lot of what the Welsh Labour Government do, but I | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
support the institution of the Welsh Assembly, and I want to strdngthen | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
that institution, and one d`y return a Welsh Conservative Governlent that | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
has the powers to get on and do the job. I will touch on a bit later | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
about bus regulations, becatse I refer everyone to my declar`tion of | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
interest, I served on the board of a major boss Company for many years, | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
and I welcome the Australians we are giving to the Assembly. -- the Bosch | :23:40. | :23:50. | |
regulations. Corporation tax was mentioned. Business rates is with | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
the Assembly, and in terms of the Cardiff city deal getting those | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
high-value companies from London and Cardiff, you have discretion with | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
business rates, you can do things excitingly. Rather than talk about | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
more powers again, let's encourage your colleagues in the Asselbly to | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
put a visionary bid together with the powers they have alreadx got. I | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
think if we managed to get this bill together with income tax... I will | :24:16. | :24:25. | |
give way. I am happy to see corporation tax devolved into the | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
bill in the hobby will not be revisiting this as we have over the | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
last couple of years. The rdason I mention corporation tax is that | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
looking at the Republic of Hreland has been successful with sole large | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
corporation headquarters in their aisles. I accept that point. There | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
is an attitude and a complete and say that things then when wd give | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
the Assembly more powers, which is, right, we have got them, and rather | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
of thinking about what to do with them, we will think about what to | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
ask for next. I think that hs a good example between what you cotld do | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
with corporation tax, but what you could already do with busindss | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
rates. I want to talk a little about the capital side of this. The more | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
revenue streams and account`bility as the us being able to givd the | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
Welsh Government, the more capital they can borrow, and the more | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
capital they can boot into infrastructure products to Leigh | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
project on their own backs. The Commonwealth Games bit. We could put | :25:23. | :25:31. | |
the Commonwealth Games bit hn Wales. We could put more into the size of | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
wills Metro, top up the Cardiff city deal. -- south wales metro. But this | :25:37. | :25:47. | |
tidies it up. This enables the Welsh Government to get on and hopefully | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
deliver for the people of W`les and if they do not, we can more | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
appropriately judge them on either failure or success. I have touched | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
on the worrying part is of the scandal and how I see the attitudes | :26:02. | :26:12. | |
in the Welsh Government as ` lazy approach. I want to move on to the | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
single legal jurisdiction issue I believe that single legal | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
jurisdiction has served us well and it should be maintained. Although we | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
acknowledge the Assembly now will make a greater body of law, and I | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
commend this bill for tacklhng what has been a very thorny issud, I | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
think the disruption and cost of a separate legal jurisdiction is not | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
justified at this time. It would create upheaval and huge cost for no | :26:40. | :26:47. | |
good reason, in my opinion. Another issue is the formal recognition in | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
this bill of a body of Welsh law, made by Welsh secretaries. This | :26:54. | :27:04. | |
change reflects the importance. . Most of the debate is about | :27:05. | :27:11. | |
necessity test, so I hope in this draft bill we will have a l`nd that | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
Boyle touch. We will hear from Plaid Cymru later in the debate. The | :27:17. | :27:24. | |
committee concluded the necdssity test was wrong. I recommenddd it be | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
replaced, and I welcome the Secretary of State's approach on | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
this issue. The body Welsh log continues to grow, and is something | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
I said throughout the committee and throughout the Welsh select | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
committee. The Assembly of laking Welsh laws, and there is a body of | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
Welsh love, and I think thex should have the security and confidence to | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
say that rather than complelent to Westminster to reassure that, yes, | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
you are making Welsh laws and that you have your own body of l`w. We | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
risk economic and commercial damage of a separate jurisdiction hs | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
chaste. We risk a flight of talent, in my opinion, representing Cardiff | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
with a very strong legal professional services. We also face | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
problems with our universithes. My honourable friend for Coward Iain | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
and Aberystwyth University, I would not want to put them in a shtuation | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
whether the are debating whdther to teach international law Welsh lock | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
to students. That may be a very difficult one for the Dean of | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
Aberystwyth. For these reasons I support the Government was 's belief | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
in sharing that legal jurisdiction. I will give way. I'm sure the head | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
of the Law Department and Aberystwyth would quite enjoy | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
teaching both English and Wdlsh law. Does he acknowledge that ond of the | :28:53. | :28:54. | |
positive that has come from the Government in recent days that the | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
partial acknowledgement of the need not breast separate jurisdiction but | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
a distinct one? That word sdems to be lost on the other side of the | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
House. We are not calling for a separate but a distinct leg`l | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
jurisdiction. I thank my honourable friend for that intervention. We had | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
this debate and I stood up constantly saying, I think we | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
already have distinct arrangements, I cannot see what you're asking for. | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
I think you're right. Those distinct arrangements will be put in place, | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
and if the honourable member looks like he was a comeback, I whll give | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
way. Surely will ignore is that the very creation of the working group | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
that the Government has announced is a step, only a step, but at a step | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
in that direction towards a distinct jurisdiction. We will be a | :29:46. | :29:55. | |
revisiting this in years to come. I think this is very pragmatic | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
solution to this thorny isste, I cannot see why distinct arr`ngements | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
would not stand the test of time and this body of Welsh law emerges. I am | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
looking forward to... I will give way. Would the honourable gdntleman | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
not agree that the findings of the working group are extremely | :30:15. | :30:16. | |
important to our discussions on the Wills bill, and given that that will | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
be reporting back in the autumn we should make sure it's binding are | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
incorporated into this bill. -- make sure its findings are incorporated. | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
We don't exactly rush things, and the Secretary of State alluded to | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
the fact that that would work tirelessly. It will be important. I | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
think that is a step forward for the members of the House to deal with | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
what has been a thorny issud by the jurisdiction. Moving on, I `m | :30:48. | :30:49. | |
looking forward to that working group, and I hope it is a thmely | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
fashion and we can consider it at the committee stage. It is ` | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
significant change that has been introduced, different from the draft | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
bill, and again I think touching on the judicial impact assessmdnts I | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
support those. I think thosd are extremely welcome. I don't dxactly | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
follow anyone's rationale why they would object to those in thhs bill. | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
I think any sensible institttion or Government would have them. And I | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
look forward to anyone opposing that and perhaps sitting down and talking | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
through their rationale. I think it is a very sensible approach. | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
Likewise the electoral arrangements, I think this has been a long time | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
coming. I alluded to the fact I do not think it is right in thhs play | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
is that we should be debating how many Assembly Members they have or | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
at what age you should vote. I think it is very right of the Assdmbly | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
chose to call themselves a Welsh Parliament, I am entirely rdlaxed. I | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
think I rose by any other n`me. If they are making rules and gdnerating | :31:51. | :31:59. | |
capital. Dry my contribution to a close, I want to talk about to | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
practical things. I think the Shadow Secretary of State what abott poor | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
and the elements of protecthon, in particular Milford Haven. -, talked | :32:10. | :32:17. | |
about ports. I judge that as a port of national infrastructure on a UK | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
level, and I think it is entirely warranted that there is protection | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
there. I did allude to a very practical welcome about the boss | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
regulation, which I see is `n excellent step forward for what the | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
Welsh Government has been trying to do in terms of integrated transport. | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
An excellent step forward for local authorities, having served on board | :32:39. | :32:46. | |
for a large site will bus company. I think it will enable the integrated | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
approach between bosses and city regions and the train services, -- | :32:51. | :32:59. | |
between bosses and city reghons I look forward to what the Welsh | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
Government at the does with these powers, and looking at a business | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
rates and the huge powers they currently have two better the lives | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
of my constituents and the people of Wales. I commend this and b`nk the | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
Secretary of State and his team After the Scottish independdnce | :33:20. | :33:30. | |
referendum, the Prime Minister promised the people of Wales the | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
same rights as Scottish votdrs are being respected, reserved and | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
enhanced and so too with thd rights of Welsh voters. He promised that | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
Wales would be at the heart of the devolution debate. Since thdn the | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
Wales Office has published ` draft Wales Bill and now we have the | :33:50. | :33:59. | |
proper Bill. That draft bill failed to deliver on the recommend`tions of | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
the cross Suk commission. -, silk commission. The recommendathons were | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
supported by all four of thd Welsh political parties. Plaid Cylru civil | :34:12. | :34:20. | |
society groups and people in all parts of Wales had hoped th`t the | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
redrafted Bill would return to the consensus of the silk commission and | :34:27. | :34:35. | |
of the people of Wales the devolution options. Today wd are far | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
away from that. I freely acknowledge that, compared to the draft | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
published in the autumn, thdre has been progress in Melck -- m`king be | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
built fit for progress. I c`n acknowledge that we have cole a long | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
way but we have a long way to go before the bill will be fit for | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
enactment. I welcome that the secretary of State has acted on some | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
of the criticisms of the prdvious draft, four example around the | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
reservation of criminal law and the necessity test. I think the | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
recognition of the fact of Welsh law is very much to be welcomed. But it | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
is recognising just the reality of the situation in Wales. There remain | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
very serious concerns regarding the complexity, uncertainty and lack of | :35:27. | :35:34. | |
coherence in parts of the bhll. Throughout Wales's Llong devolution | :35:35. | :35:36. | |
journey, Plaid Cymru has always tried to get the best deal for | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
everybody and anybody who chooses to make their home in Wales. The people | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
in Wales best understand thd needs of our country. It is said once that | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
anybody can be Welsh as long as they are prepared to take the Huns | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
occurrences! One of those is that those who live in Wales facd up to | :35:58. | :36:06. | |
deciding for Wales. But not all parties share this view and that is | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
why we signed up to the Silk Commission. Academic experts and | :36:12. | :36:21. | |
talked formally and informally with people all over Wales and it was a | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
truly representative commission and the report it produced reprdsented a | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
true consensus. That consensus was not easy to achieve. We gavd way on | :36:31. | :36:38. | |
some points in Plaid Cymru, points that were important to us btt not to | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
others, as did other parties on their own issues. The process | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
involved all parties making compromises so it was deeplx | :36:49. | :36:50. | |
disappointing and frustrating to see the Wales Office dump that consensus | :36:51. | :36:58. | |
in order to to find a lowest common dynamite and call it an agrdement. | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
Far from being an agreement, the White Paper and the eventual Wales | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
Bill fall well short of the consensus that was worked so hard to | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
achieve. -- lowest common denominator. The profound criticism | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
of the bill is in the same vein as of the draft bill, the discredited | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
draft bill. This is striking when contrasted with the consensts and | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
welcome around Silk previously evident in Wales. What happdned to | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
the consensus that Welsh National resources should be in the hands of | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
those living in Wales? That it is the people of Wales who are best | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
placed at deciding our policing policies? To the consensus hs that | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
it is the people in Wales who best understand our country's tr`nsport | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
needs? Under this bill, Walds can set its own speed limits but | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
drink-drive limit, that is to complicated for little old ts. One | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
of the historic political controversies in Wales throtghout my | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
political life, water is much too valuable a resource to be ldft to | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
the government in Wales but sewerage, yes, we can have that I | :38:20. | :38:27. | |
have many concerns regarding the current list of reserved policy | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
fields and I shall return to this matter later that I would lhke to | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
focus on the foundations of this draft Bill. I should stress that | :38:35. | :38:43. | |
Plaid Cymru warmly welcomes the move to a reserved powers model from | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
moving away from the current devolution model whereby ardas are | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
listed that the assembly can legislate in, moving to a model | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
where it cannot. There was ` welcome consensus across all of the six | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
biggest parties in Wales to move to that reserved powers model `nd that | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
consensus stems from the lack of clarity on where the responsibility | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
lies especially compared to the Scottish dispensation, the | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
challenges to Welsh legislation in the Supreme Court under the current | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
dispensation, and the danger of further and increased challdnges in | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
the Supreme Court if we do not get this sorted out. It was thotght that | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
moving to a reserved powers model would provide clarity both legally | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
and for the public as to wh`t is within the legislative compdtence of | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
the assembly and what is not. This is a problem for MPs as well and it | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
is no small matter. I don't know how many times I have had to ask when | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
considering legislation, is this Wales only? England only? England | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
and Wales? Great Britain or even Great Britain and Northern Hreland? | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
What about people's opinion on devolution, we can all agred that | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
such ambiguity is bad for ddmocracy. Moving to a reserved powers model | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
should also be about changing the ruling attitude towards devolution. | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
It would be for the UK Government to justify something should be reserved | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
rather than justifying why something should be devolved. This is | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
devolution based on real subsidiarity as I made the point | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
earlier to the Secretary of State, rather than retention, enabling | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
rather than hobbling, trusthng, respecting rather than suspdcting | :40:42. | :40:49. | |
and presenting. However much some might smell, and we know who they | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
are. But these are foundations and principles in favour of a rdserved | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
powers model had been lost somewhat and the result is a bill th`t is | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
unclear and possibly unsust`inable. Going from a position as recently as | :41:05. | :41:11. | |
last May where all six of W`les s biggest parties agreed on the way | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
forward to a position now where the UK Government is alone in thinking | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
this bill delivers a lasting settlement. The Wales Officd has | :41:19. | :41:26. | |
admitted that rather than using the Scotland act of 1998 as a starting | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
point, devolution dispensathon that has avoided the constant legal | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
challenges and political thhnking that has bedevilled Welsh | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
devolution, instead they have used the government of Wales act 200 , | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
that very failed devolution settlement we are trying to replace. | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
In fact it is a model based on the administrative devolution in the | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
1960s from the Croatian -- creation of the Welsh office. It is ` deeply | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
outdated model and not fit for the day, let alone tomorrow. We're faced | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
with a bill that claws back the powers forward the people of Wales | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
voted overwhelmingly in favour of in 2011, returning to the very long | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
list of reservations. The wdstern metal -- the Western mail itself, | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
not always 100% correct I would concede, lists 267 powers which as | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
they put it, Westminster dods not wonder is -- want Wales to have | :42:26. | :42:34. | |
Just about every aspect of the draft bill was roundly criticised and | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
there was particular anger for the list of reserved powers. Thd wells | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
-- Wales Office promised to shorten the list. They might have a few out | :42:44. | :42:53. | |
but the fact that the list has gone up from 42 to 44 places, suggests | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
that if any were taken out what remains is even more long-whnded | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
than before. There may be a reason for that. I'm grateful to hhm for | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
giving way but in terms of the list of reservations, it is simply | :43:09. | :43:15. | |
measuring something by the number of pages is not necessarily thd most | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
sensible way in which to me`sure them also in relation to thd | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
Scotland act, for example, the reservations listed as subjdct | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
matter of and it simply has a broad headline. One of the requirdments of | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
this bill was to make it far more specific and therefore also included | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
in those pages would be excdptions to the reservations and that | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
naturally would lengthen it. I would hope that the honourable melber | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
would accept the spirit in which those reservations were defhned | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
preventing of ending up in court challenging each other. I thank him | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
for his point and it is somdthing we have discussed before and I did make | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
the point that the number of pages might not be the best indic`tion of | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
the number of reservations or their complexity. There are new | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
reservations in the bill whhch were not in the draft bill, for dxample | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
matters as important as the Severn bridges, that nagging tooth`che for | :44:16. | :44:24. | |
our economy in the south. I'm grateful to my honourable friend for | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
giving way and going back to the intervention by the Secretary of | :44:29. | :44:30. | |
State for Wales, the fact that pages has gone up, does that not hndicate | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
that this bill is not the bonfire of reservations we were promisdd? That | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
is something we will debate no doubt. I relish the opportunity to | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
discuss the reservations and hear the Secretary of State justhfying | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
them. When one looks in the explanatory notes, there is a | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
description and an explicathon of the reservations but very lhttle | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
justification as far as I c`n see so I look forward to that future | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
debate. The Wales government describe the list of reserv`tions | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
saying that complexity is phled on complexity, the potential for legal | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
challenge casts a long shadow. I see little evidence that the revised | :45:23. | :45:30. | |
list is that much clearer. H fear it remains a lawyer's playground. As I | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
said, the shift to a reservdd powers model was supposed to be made in | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
tandem with a shift in ment`lity and I think this is extremely ilportant | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
to determine what is needed to be reserved rather than what should be | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
devolved. It is fairly clear that the secretary of state has | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
facilitated a pick and mix of what they fancy backing for themselves, | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
based on principles no deepdr than a shout of mine. If the Secretary of | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
State is serious about creating a lasting settlement committed cannot | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
simply flip the current settlement and allow Whitehall to pick and | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
choose what power they want to hang onto. The process must be btilt on | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
principles and the principlds he identified early on, I agred with, | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
clarity and coherence but I would also add proper subsidiaritx. Some | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
time ago I had an entertainhng lunch with the Irish minister responsible | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
for the new Irish language `ct. He was quite candid and actually | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
hilarious. They had been to Canada and Quebec and he had received from | :46:49. | :46:58. | |
his own words, bits of the law. He had been around Europe and hey | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
presto, there was the langu`ge bill. We don't need to roam vast continent | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
stitching together bits of this and that. The model is already there for | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
following and perhaps peopld will forgive me for saying this, it is a | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
home-grown British model and it is called the Scotland act. | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
Moving to reserved powers model would remove some of the defects of | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
haste and inconsistency that have sold for more legislative ddvolution | :47:31. | :47:38. | |
in Wales. -- that have so f`r marred legislative devolution. It has been | :47:39. | :47:46. | |
described as having underlyhng patronising attitude. In pr`ctical | :47:47. | :47:54. | |
terms, it will undoubtedly lead to even more blame shifting between | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
Cardiff and London. That is the last thing people in Wales want or at the | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
last thing the governance of Wales requires. The committee which was | :48:04. | :48:13. | |
also cheered by a Tory recolmended that each legislation should be | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
individually justified. That has been ignored, and other forward to | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
hearing the Secretary of St`te and his colleagues making offer that as | :48:25. | :48:26. | |
we going to the committee. ,- that each reservation should be | :48:27. | :48:34. | |
individually justified. Is ht necessary to retain function X for | :48:35. | :48:44. | |
the maintenance of the UK as a state? Does retention Z unddrmine | :48:45. | :48:52. | |
the stability of the devolution settlements? These are the puestions | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
the Secretary of State should be asking himself for each and every | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
one of the reservations in the bill. Simply making hundreds of | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
reservations for no given rdason is not acceptable, particularlx when | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
the rationale seems to be a deeply suspect power grab by departments of | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
governments that have failed Wales source are actually over thd last | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
few years. -- so spectacularly over the last two years. The honourable | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
gentleman is making a very good speech. He is talking about the need | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
to analyse each and every one of the proposed reservations. Does he think | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
that two days in committee will be sufficient to achieve that? I'm not | :49:34. | :49:42. | |
sure. I am in two minds abott this. If we have full days of deb`te, it | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
might indeed be the case. I have been here too long, I think, and | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
remember the days of Welsh debates that have been interrupted by | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
statements, urgent questions and all kinds of shenanigans which have led | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
to Welsh debates being curt`iled. If we have protected time, we shall | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
see. I think my honourable friend will be looking into this point a | :50:10. | :50:16. | |
bit further in his remarks, and I hope the Right Honourable gdntleman | :50:17. | :50:23. | |
will be here to hear him. M`dam Deputy Speaker, I challenge the | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
Secretary of State to respond today about the justification for why he | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
believes the people of Wales do not deserve the same responsibld | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
governments as the people of Scotland. The Secretary of State | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
voted for the Scotland act, to give the people of Scotland governance, | :50:39. | :50:52. | |
to make the Scottish Governlent is responsible for raising a | :50:53. | :50:54. | |
significant proportion of the money they spend. He refuses to do so for | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
a Wills. What practical reasons are there to insist that Welsh police | :51:00. | :51:08. | |
forces follow the agenda of English forces? Those fortunate enotgh to be | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
in the House last night would have heard my honourable friend laking | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
just these arguments. What reason is ever focusing largely on problems | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
are prevalent in England, stch as knife crime, rather than medting the | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
needs of Wales, and particularly in my case of rural Wales? What | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
practical reason is there for setting, for example, a limht on the | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
Welsh Government's power ovdr energy? When there is no such limit | :51:37. | :51:47. | |
on the Scottish Government's? I did raise the holy practical qudstion | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
around this in my points to the honourable gentleman. I will expand | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
on it now with the House's permission. A local hydroeldctric | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
scheme in Snowdonia was going to limit themselves to 49 megawatts. | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
That was and is the old limht. In order, they told me quite plainly, | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
to avoid the entanglements of a London bureaucracy. Now the early | :52:13. | :52:15. | |
McGrotty hundred and 50 meg`watts. They could produce more, I think. -- | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
know they are aiming for 350 megawatts. This is limiting number | :52:21. | :52:31. | |
is a number that as far as H can see have been plucked out of thd error. | :52:32. | :52:41. | |
-- out of the air. He referred to the silk commission earlier, and | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
would he not except that thd 25 megawatts was a recommendathon from | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
Silk, arrived at by recommendations from members from all polithcal | :52:53. | :53:04. | |
parties. I will explain this position in the moment. I would | :53:05. | :53:11. | |
still like to hear a recommdndation, not from the Silk commission, but | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
from the Secretary of State. What practical reasons are there to | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
devolve the Swansea Bay tid`l lagoon but not to devolve lagoon is in the | :53:21. | :53:29. | |
Cardiff area and around Corwen Bay? What is the justification? Ht is | :53:30. | :53:37. | |
plain there is no sensible `rgument for this, for me at least, `nd there | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
is no limit in Scotland. Unless decisions such as this are based on | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
reason and principle, the ddvolution settlement will never be | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
long-lasting, and we will perpetually be debating the | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
constitution. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is not Plaid Cymru who are the | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
constitutional obsessives hdre, despite the frequent charges that we | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
are. It is successive Westmhnster governments who have chosen to forge | :54:04. | :54:14. | |
and fix over empowering Welsh Government is to settle down and get | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
on with serving the people of Wales, and boy, do they have a job on their | :54:20. | :54:28. | |
hands. It is not, as far as I can see, likely to build a sust`inable, | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
stable and fear devolution settlement for our country. The | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
Wales Office have an opporttnity to give us the devolution settlement we | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
need, one that does not lead to court cases and blame shifthng, that | :54:42. | :54:49. | |
leads to economic growth, hdalthier NHS, and a workforce that whll work | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
and Stanley test of time. -, a settlement that will stand the test | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
of time. We will demand a ddvolution settlement that facilitates progress | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
rather than pit stop blocks. I still hope the official opposition will | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
support both amendments. Thd opportunity to shape wheels's 's | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
additional convention does not come around that often. -- Wales's | :55:14. | :55:21. | |
Constitutional Convention. H do not want to be forced to vote against | :55:22. | :55:29. | |
this bill, and nor do my honourable friend. There is much in thhs bill | :55:30. | :55:36. | |
we support. But for the party of Wales, a party whose very rdason for | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
existence is to empower the people of Wales to run their own affairs, | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
to vote against these powers would be a very painful decision. I | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
sincerely hope the Secretarx of State will not force us to do that, | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
so I him to heed the critichsms in the constructive spirit thex are | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
intended and rescue this bill. Finally I urge the Secretarx of | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
State to reflect on the thing of the guns of what he is building. The | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
Secretary of State is reshaping the constitution of Wales. -- rdflect on | :56:09. | :56:10. | |
the significance of what he is building. It is an opportunhty to | :56:11. | :56:22. | |
construct a foundation on which his country's economy will be btilt his | :56:23. | :56:31. | |
NHS will be saved. This bill falls well short of the recommend`tions, | :56:32. | :56:45. | |
of the committee. Wales must not be forced behind the Scotland Bill The | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
Secretary of State can be stubborn and push this particular bill if he | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
wishes, and become possibly a failed Secretary of State for Wills. I | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
would not wish that on him. He would be in the line of a great m`ny | :57:01. | :57:08. | |
others who have failed to sdrve Wales very well. My honourable | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
friend last night made a colpelling case to devolve policing, and we | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
heard not a peep from Welsh Tory reliever members on this matter -- | :57:22. | :57:33. | |
or leave a members. You shotld also take the advice of my friend who | :57:34. | :57:40. | |
called for him to follow in the footsteps of great Conservative | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
right former is in the past, politician who foresaw the future. | :57:47. | :58:01. | |
-- great conservative reforlers Disraeli was asked if he had read | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
Daniel Deronda, and he were applied, when I want to read a good novel, | :58:10. | :58:16. | |
direct one. The Secretary of State, if you would like to see a good | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
Wales Bill, he should write one and he is capable of doing that. This | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
particular bill is not quitd fit. He has the opportunity now to prove | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
that the politicians of vishon. My colleagues on these benches envy | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
them. As to this bill, I sax with our national poet ... I say do not | :58:37. | :58:54. | |
waste the opportunity to buhld this into the country which vibr`tes it | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
should be. -- by rights it should be. It is always a pleasure to | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
follow the honourable member, and though I did not agree with a great | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
deal in his speech, I must congratulate him on the passion and | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
commitment to Wales that we are used to seeing from him. I also `t this | :59:15. | :59:22. | |
point have to both congratulate and sympathise with the Secretary of | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
State and his minister. It hs never easy taking over a bill that was | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
started by a previous Secretary of State. He has brought this foreword, | :59:33. | :59:40. | |
and I congratulate him for doing so. But I'll so have to sympathhse with | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
him, because as many will now know, there are many members withhn his | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
ranks who are very unhappy with the bill as it stands. In fact, one | :59:50. | :59:58. | |
would say that's taking 11 lembers from Wales, taking two ministers out | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
of a scenario, the majority of Welsh Conservative MPs are unhappx with | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
this particular bill. It is an important bill, and I am very | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
disappointed that so far today we have seen most of these gredn | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
benches empty. The people who are here have spoken with great passion | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
and commitment to Wales, but we have had a lot of green shown to us | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
today, and not have that many members from throughout Gre`t | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
Britain and throughout the House joining us, and that to me hs a | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
disappointment. This Wales Bill comes at a crucial time for our | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
whole nation. The Welsh economy is no chugging back into life `fter a | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
protracted stall since 2008. Businesses are hiring again. The | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
unemployment rate is falling, and our GDP is beginning to risd. The | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
historic Cardiff city deal, introduced by this Government, which | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
my honourable friend for Cardiff North has done so much to champion, | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
is bringing great infrastructure and job prospects to south Wales which | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
will have a knock-on effect two men are a member Mac's is the jdrseys, | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
including my own, boosting our local economies. -- a knock-on effect on | :01:18. | :01:27. | |
many constituencies. On its own perhaps this does not have ` great | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
knock-on effect on uncertainty in the Welsh economy, but coupling this | :01:31. | :01:38. | |
with the result of the EU rdferendum makes for an uncertain time for | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
Wales. It is imperative we do all we can to make Wales strong and | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
resilient for its future. I chain is only as strong as its weakest link, | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
and they do not want to Walds to be the weak link in the United Kingdom | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
chain. I think this is something we can all agree on, as we all want | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
Wales to be a strong, successful player in the United Kingdol. Some | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
members may be surprised to hear that I am not opposed to thd overall | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
concept of further devolution in trying to achieve this goal. I agree | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
with the Government that power should be held as close to the | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
people as possible, which is why I believe that some parts of previous | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
Wales bills do indeed need tidying up. I'll so agree that the Welsh | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
Assembly needs to be more accountable to the people of Wales, | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
and agree that we should sthck to our manifesto pledge to delhver the | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
Wales Bill that both myself and members on this side of the House | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
were elected to deliver by the people Wills. -- the people of | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
Wales. But this is where my agreement with this Bill Waxans I | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
cannot stand idly by my principles and accept the bill in this form. | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
And disappointed by the timhng and the application of the Bill and with | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
much of the substance of thd bill. What I would like to see is that | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
Wales that can decide it own destiny and has control over its future but | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
Wales that plays a key part and remained a strong part of the UK. | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
The only way we can achieve these goals is through a devolved | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
settlement that the people of Wales actually want and accept, a | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
settlement that will hold long into the future. As politicians, we | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
should also never assume th`t we know exactly what the peopld want. | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman and he is making some | :03:42. | :03:43. | |
powerful points based on his principled politician. Does this | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
mean he will be voting against the bill? I think the honourabld | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
gentleman. As far as I am aware there is no vote this evening but I | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
shall be scrutinising it closely over the two or three days `nd | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
putting amendments forward. We should never assume that we know | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
what the people of Wales want. On matters as important as this | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
settlement, that will affect me and my children and my children's | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
children long into the future, we cannot afford to get this wrong | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
Above all, that is why this devolution settlement should be one | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
that at its heart has accountability and democracy as its foundations. | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
Without such strong pillars to build the settlement, we cannot expect the | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
structure to hold and as we have seen in Scotland recently, we can | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
come dangerously close to a total collapse if it is not right. So does | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
it uphold what I would suggdst to be the settlement Wales wants `nd | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
needs? I would first like to look at the timing of the bill. At the front | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
bench will no doubt be award, the Welsh affairs select committee | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
looked long and hard into the draft Wales Bill. Many hours over many | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
months were dedicated to its detail and I was very pleased to bd part of | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
that committee and was gratdful for the time we were allocated. While it | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
appears we were given plentx of time to look into the particulars of the | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
draft bill, the bill in is today manages to include some important | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
clauses that we were not asked to consider as a committee. For the | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
hours we spent a scrutinising the draft bill, we spend them on issues | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
contained in that bill not hn this bill. And grateful to the sdcretary | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
of state for the conventions when he was in the Wales Office, thd current | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
secretary of state for the dvidence and assistance that they gave to our | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
committee and report. Howevdr, with the about turn on the need for a | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
referendum on the devolution of tax-raising powers and the new | :05:54. | :05:55. | |
commitment to allow the abolition of the Welsh Assembly for a referendum | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
squeezing their way into thhs bill, it is disappointing that thd | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
committee has not been given a chance to look at these isstes in | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
depth the issues which underlined the whole bill and have enormous | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
consequences for the people of Wales. More time would have been | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
welcomed by many members of the committee to look into thesd | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
important changes to the Constitution of Welsh devolttion but | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
we are to be denied this ch`nce by the apparent rushing of the bill. | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
Moving to the substance of the devolution settlement, it w`s in | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
looking over the Wales Bill that I felt the most sympathy for one of | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
the Welsh affairs committee bowled witnesses. Professor Richard Wyn | :06:38. | :06:46. | |
Jones, who said that one of our sessions, to read this bill you have | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
to have a copy of the 2006 `ct and a towel doused in cold water wrapped | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
around your head and you have to compare the legislation as ` | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
constitution for Wales, it hs not user friendly. Nevertheless, like | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
many in this chamber, I persevered and found many surprises. Close to a | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
part three struck me from the first page and I will not go throtgh each | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
clause. It said that the Welsh government are not to be abolished | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
except on the basis of a decision by the people of Wales voting hn a | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
referendum. I was heartened for I believe this was going to bd true | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
democracy in this bill, the people being given the chance to abolish | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
the assembly if they so wished. I was so encouraged, only to find that | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
when I turned the page, no instruction on how this refdrendum | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
was to be triggered, only the next clause. I would hope that the | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
foundations of accountability and democracy were to be upheld but it | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
seems that part was missing. Why not hold in the bill the referendum | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
could be triggered by a pethtion of the people? Looking at the recent | :07:58. | :08:05. | |
assembly elections, the abolish the assembly party achieved a ddcent | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
share from a standing start and I have been approached by othdrs to | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
say they would have lent thd party Debord if they believed if ht made | :08:13. | :08:21. | |
us in when spinster listen ,- there vote if they believed it made us in | :08:22. | :08:29. | |
Westminster listen. I was sorry not to see this in the Bill and believed | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
that this provision falls upon thing short of providing that key | :08:35. | :08:36. | |
Democratic pillar on which this settlement should be built. I would | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
like to touch on the applic`tion of this devolved settlement. L`st night | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
I was sat up in bed, Wales Bill by my side and a copy of our m`nifesto | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
open at pages 70 and 71 and I am sure you will all know what is in | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
that but I will remind you that it was the section on Wales's | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
devolution settlement. I had a highlighter ready to mark e`ch | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
commitment that myself and honourable friends stood on the game | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
election to this house. I wdnt through each point. Introducing the | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
Wales Bill. Check. Implementing arch of the Silk report. Check. Devolving | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
the assembly name. Check. Preserving police and justice matters. Check. | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
Introducing a funding floor for the Welsh government once it has called | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
a referendum tax raising powers My highlighter was ready and w`iting, | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
my eyes scanned swiftly across the document, my hands turning the | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
Pages, eagerly awaiting the commitment I had mentioned so many | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
times on the doorstep. Clause 1 went by, 14, 15 and then it hit me, | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
clause 16. I checked our manifesto again, I checked the bill and there | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
it was in black and white, ` commitment to give the Welsh | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
Assembly tax-raising powers without a referendum. This was further | :10:07. | :10:14. | |
disappointment that the pillar of democracy which I believe otr | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
settlement should be built on is missing from this bill. The | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
Secretary of State himself said in his op-ed for this bill in the first | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
reading that Welsh men and women want sensible legislation that | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
reflects their priorities and allows them to live under laws of their own | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
choosing. Why is it that Welsh people do not get to choose a | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
legislation they want to live under? Why is it that their voice hs being | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
silenced on this issue? Why is it that the Welsh people are ddnied a | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
say? Could it be that referdndum is really are going out of fashion | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
Surely the whole idea of devolution was to move power out of Whhtehall | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
and closer to the people, when they wanted it, and I agreed with that. | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
It has been said by many political pundits that Cardiff Bay is the most | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
centralising government in Durope and quite often constituents in my | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
constituency feel that Cardhff Bay is far more remote than Westminster. | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
So why have powers moved from one government to another when our | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
constituents are either missing out altogether or being doubly burdened? | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
Finally, and I am sure you `re glad I'm coming to a close, I must stress | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
that, in principle, I'm not against the devolution of further powers to | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
any assembly, any Maher, local authority or government. -- Mayor. I | :11:41. | :11:49. | |
have no problem with devolution of powers, in fact I often think of it | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
is a good thing, where it works My concern lies with the ability of the | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
Welsh Assembly to take on the extra powers outlined in this bill and | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
utilise them in a competent and constructive way. Particularly at | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
this time of no overall majority. We have already heard so eloqudntly, my | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
icon or friend from Clwyd Wdst about evolving energy wind provishon - my | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
right honourable friend. And it was said that he was scaremongering but | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
I can assure you that the prospect of having more pylons in Brdcon | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
really is scaring my constituents and it is a serious worry that I | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
think will be taken lightly by the Welsh Assembly. Taking further | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
examples, health. The Labour and was assembly government have so far | :12:48. | :12:49. | |
presented over a fall in re`l terms spending on the NHS in Wales. | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
Waiting times are through the roof with some people reregisterhng in | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
England just to be seen by ` doctor in a reasonable time. And L`st | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
targets are constantly missdd, A target missed and no implemdntation | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
of a Cancer Drugs Fund to s`ve lives. -- ambulance targets. School | :13:11. | :13:20. | |
in my local area are closing because of cuts in government settldment | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
from the bus assembly and their outright rejection of the excellent | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
academies programme that is being rolled out across England and this | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
makes no sense to me. In terms of the points he has raised just now, | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
that is to do with government decisions are supposed to bd | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
deficient of devolution will stop when he accused me of accushng his | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
right honourable friend of scaremongering, I did not s`y that | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
and perhaps he could inform us how many of those products in powers | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
were above the 50 megawatts level? The question I would answer is how | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
many will be if we have Welsh devolution on this matter. The third | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
and final point, agriculturd. The was assembly is not hearing the | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
voices of those of us in rural areas. They have substantially cut | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
the agricultural budget, taken the maximum support payment frol our | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
farmers and until a month ago did not even allowed agriculturd, | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
environment and rural affairs of full place around the Cabindt table. | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
This is the same assembly that spent nearly ?50,000 on a wind turbine | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
that generated ?5 of energy before being switched off. The samd | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
assembly who, when given thd Independent living fund frol the | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
DWP... I'm afraid I must insist that he says government rather than | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
assembly, it is the Labour government taking these dechsions, | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
not the assembly itself. It is not the fault of the assembly as such. | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
My honourable friend is quite right and I stated that early in ly speech | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
but I would say it is collective responsibility down there and the | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
assembly government making those decisions. To finish on my point, | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
the same assembly, who went given the independent living fund from the | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
DW play, passed it on the local councils but not before takhng a | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
so-called administration be -- DWP. This cost the adult social care | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
budget copybook in Mike constituency ?49,000. Devolving further powers | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
before the was assembly can prove they can utilise the powers they | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
already have is just like hhring the same cowboy builder who build you a | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
structurally unsafe house to come back and build the extension. It is | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
unsound to make the assumpthon that piling more pricks on top of a | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
wobbly tower will make it sturdier. It does not make sense and surely it | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
is not the pillar of accountability. Can I congratulate him on rdading | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
his party's manifesto? That is a very brave step to make. Seriously, | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
we have had an assembly election and his party went from second to third. | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
Is he arguing, because he dhd say he wants to bring power closer to the | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
people, for more powers for local authorities? That would in some way | :16:19. | :16:26. | |
devolve power within Wales. As much as it saddens me, I actuallx quite | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
agree with the honourable gdntleman. From record so far, it would be | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
better to have devolution to local authorities rather than the eight | :16:36. | :16:37. | |
centralised government in C`rdiff Bay. I'm grateful for the | :16:38. | :16:45. | |
intervention and I would like to follow on from the point th`t the | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
honourable member for Ynys Lon has made. Devolving to look govdrnment | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
is fine and the British govdrnment has developed planning to local | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
authorities and the first thing the was government did was take that | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
away from local authorities and centralise it to itself so what we | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
have is planning with local authorities in England and | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
centralised in Cardiff in W`les I think he makes a valid point. As I | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
have said all the way through, centralisation of this government in | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
Cardiff Bay come it is not devolution to the people of Wales | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
and I'm afraid that sadly bx devolving further powers at this | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
time when they are not capable of handling the powers they have got, | :17:31. | :17:32. | |
it is a bad way forward. Just in relation to the last | :17:33. | :17:46. | |
intervention, the last time I went to the planning committee they | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
seemed to have some planning powers. Why don't they show some respect to | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
the people of Wales have of five occasions elected Labour to the | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
Assembly? On the important latter is that they have elected the largest | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
party, not the majority party. They have reached Government just by - is | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
it a coalition with it is that a merger? So is now the time to pass | :18:16. | :18:26. | |
them more powers? So Madam Deputy Speaker, there you have it. I ask | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
only for a devolution settldment that allows a Wales to decide is own | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
destiny, future and players part in the United Kingdom, all built on the | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
firmest of foundations, foundations of accountability and democracy | :18:40. | :18:47. | |
Let's give Wales desired devolution, not disappointment. A settldment, | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
not a setback. But most of `ll, let's give real democracy to Wales. | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
Mark Williams. Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words, not | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
least after that tour de force, and I assured him no merger. A liberal | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
voice may be somewhat more luted these days, but it is still there. | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
If there was ever a case to have a clear and understandable devolution | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
settlement, it was on the b`sis of what some of the honourable | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
gentleman said. That need to differentiate between Government and | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
Government decisions, and the decisions made by the Assembly, | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
which is what this debate is all about. So many of the issues the | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
honourable gentleman talked about where, yes, the domain of the | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
political debate that was no doubt had in need of -- in the villages | :19:40. | :19:50. | |
and holes, and Daisy with great respect that the people of Brecon | :19:51. | :19:58. | |
and Radnor sure made clear what the wanted. A party that has always | :19:59. | :20:05. | |
remained committed to extending home rule within Britain. I want to | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
endorse what the honourable member said in his remarks at the start, | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
that the history of devoluthon has been attributed many people and many | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
political parties. It will not, the surprise for the House to hdar that | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
I think Liberal Democrat fingerprints, perhaps the dded and | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
jaded now, where on the earlier stages of this process, with the | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
creation of the Silk commission its reports of the sole responshbility, | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
and then the second report dndorsing the reserved powers model. H very | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
much welcome that work, and the work by the previous Labour Government as | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
well, which is now in this bill the gun again to bear some fruit. - | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
begun again to bear fruit. Laybe things went out of kilter | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
thereafter, and the wave of nostalgia about the coalition should | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
end no. But the Saint Davids Day agreement followed that. We saw the | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
introduction of the draft W`les bills objected to that great | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
scrutiny under the great stdwardship of the member from Monmouth on our | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
Welsh affairs select committee, the extensive scrutiny we undertook I | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
do not want to dwell on the inadequacies of the draft bhll other | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
than to say that our scrutiny was very thorough and detailed, and the | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
overwhelming response from civil society, from people most political | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
parties from the Welsh Government was that that draft bill was best | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
and at worst had a stifling effect on the quest that many of us have | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
for meaningful, clear, transparent devolution. And I repeat, mx party | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
has always believed in the hdealism that I think the honourable member | :21:58. | :22:07. | |
was alluding to. Home rule for Wales within an aspirin federal Britain. | :22:08. | :22:09. | |
We have argued for some... H will give way. It always amazes le that | :22:10. | :22:18. | |
liberal Democrats, and I have the greatest respect for the honourable | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
gentleman, use the phrase home rule in this context, because a home rule | :22:25. | :22:33. | |
failed and led to the break,up, Ireland leaving the United Kingdom. | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
Doesn't he think it would bd better to use a word that would conjure up | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
an image of success within the United Kingdom rather than failure? | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
The honourable gentleman max make his historical interpretations. I | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
use the term home rule in the context of historical battlds, | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
historic crusade towards self-government in Wales, evoking | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
the memories that the honourable member for Newport West had of | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
marching with his banners. H think it is the time that resonatds with | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
people, if not, perhaps, thd honourable member for Wrexh`m. I | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
don't think we are arguing for a different thing. We aspire to the | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
same objective. We are danchng on the head of the proverbial pen. | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
Possibly not. My big concern over the last few months is that the | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
previous legislation may have been kicked into the proverbial long | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
grass, or some kind of cul-de-sac. I stand corrected by that, and commend | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
the Secretary of State and has officials for the alacrity `nd | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
speed. Two goes all by surprise last week or the week beford, that | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
we would be here today. I thank him for the opportunity informally to | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
raise some concerns and ask questions often directly in the last | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
few days. Notwithstanding that, there are aspects of this bhll that | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
should not be rushed, and h`s been concern raised about that speed It | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
is fundamentally important that this bill is given the sufficient | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
opportunity to be properly scrutinise. I hope officials will be | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
there in consultation and discussions with civil and political | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
parties and Welsh Government to ensure we have a workable bhll and | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
that builders retain and buhld widespread support. -- that bill | :24:24. | :24:33. | |
retains and build support. H think I was the only other person in the | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
room with the representativds, the former Plaid Cymru leader, the | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
former Secretary of State, having those discussions on St Davhd's Day. | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
I remember the first meeting, I reminded the Secretary of State I | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
would be talking and discussing our meetings with my colleagues in | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
Cardiff Bay. That our discussions, for of setting and isolation around | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
that big table in a big offhce Inglewood house, should not be seen | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
in isolation. I do not belidve those discussions were as inclusive as | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
they should have been. Cross-party, cross parliamentary collaboration | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
will be the key to this bill succeeding as discussions proceed if | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
a durable, permanent settlelent that we wish to see is secured. Where are | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
the St David's Day talks an attempt to move the agenda on? Yes, they | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
wear, and indeed they have loved the agenda on. But inevitably, hf you | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
allow for a veto from any one of the four bridges the -- participants, | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
you risk stopping discussion in its tracks, and that is how it was as | :25:49. | :25:57. | |
item by item we went through every one of the Silk Commission's | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
recommendations. Hands up if you agree, hands down if you don't. | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
1-person projects, the issud was not pursued. When people talk about the | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
advancement of the debate bx the lowest common to nominate, they are | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
correct. It was very, very dasy to stop aspects of Silk's | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
recommendations. I see that as someone whose party was one of the | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
first parties, my friends in Plaid Cymru may have been there jtst | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
before us, who endorsed all of what Silk said in his second report. I am | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
grateful to the honourable gentleman for a given way. I am going to spill | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
the beans today and say who was the biggest culprit in raising hands. -- | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
will he spilled the beans? H'm sure he will not expect me to answer that | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
question. I'm sure his sources implies Cymru will have givdn him | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
the answer already. Despite best intentions, I think the way in which | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
the structure was was going to feel from the outset. Now, the bhll. To | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
start at the beginning, it hs welcome but not surprising that | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
clause one recognises the pdrmanence of the National Assembly, and though | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
the honourable member has told us the detail of a referendum to | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
abolish the Assembly is not there, and I am pleased about that, it does | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
establish the principle that the only way we could ever abolhsh the | :27:26. | :27:27. | |
National Assembly is through the consent of the Welsh people through | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
a referendum. The recent National Assembly elections were not, it will | :27:32. | :27:41. | |
come as no surprise, a stunning success for my party. But they were | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
less stunning for the abolish the Welsh Assembly party. Whatever our | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
concerns, there is, with ond or two exceptions perhaps, and accdpted | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
recognition that our Assembly is here to stay. Importantly in clause | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
one, there is that new and specific recognition of Welsh law, and I | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
quote, there is a body of Wdlsh law made by the Assembly and Welsh | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
ministers. The first time that recognition has existed. It is, of | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
course, welcome, but it must not end there. If the honourable melber for | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
Brecon and Radnor sure was tempted to vote against the Governmdnt, the | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
front bench can take some assurance that I would be likely to go through | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
the lobby with them. But with significant caveats, with | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
significant provisos, I do not know how much power is solitary Liberal | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
Democrats have these days. H would be supporting the bill at this | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
point, but on the proviso that certain things would change. I will | :28:47. | :28:55. | |
give way. I'm sure the minister and the Secretary of State is absolutely | :28:56. | :28:57. | |
overjoyed at the fact the Lhberal Democrats will be joining the | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
Conservatives, once again, hn fact, just like the last five years. It | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
was remiss of me not to congratulate my neighbour as the new leader of | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
the Welsh Liberals, and the last person standing in the Welsh Liberal | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
party. Was I hearing partictlar Liberals speak when you | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
congratulated, you regard to have a possibility and a clause in the bill | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
for devolving the Welsh Assdmbly, but you are not happy to have the | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
mechanism in there. Surely Liberals nowadays like to give Wales and to | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
give people the democratic right that they should have? I thhnk the | :29:37. | :29:44. | |
acknowledgement there is reference in the bill should satisfy the | :29:45. | :29:52. | |
honourable member, and we look forward, village mac to the detail | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
and that when the schedule that the honourable member will put forward | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
in the bill. He may be helphng the 4.5% of people that voted for the | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
Abolish The Welsh Assembly party in their cause. But we will sed. I want | :30:09. | :30:17. | |
to talk about the issue of distinct jurisdiction, and there is, I think, | :30:18. | :30:25. | |
concern, and the Secretary of State has gone in part along the ridge to | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
addressing it, there is a concern that the reference to a distinct | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
Welsh legal jurisdiction in the bill does seem, I think, pointless in | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
referring to a body of law without addressing the jurisdiction issue. | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
With the growing body of Welsh specific law that will emerge, this | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
seems to be necessary if thd bill is to provide a proper and long-term | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
settlement. Like others, I don't want to be back here if I al lucky | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
enough to be here in five ydars or ten years, or wherever many years, | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
having would it be the fifth Wales Bill. But I make the petition this | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
issue will not go away. -- the prediction. The Secretary of State | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
should be mindful of that. He is parked my father by the cre`tion of | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
the working group, and I am grateful for that, but I believe even if | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
backbenchers from the Secretary of State's own party will be grinding | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
verity at the thought of anx changes to the judicial system, I think | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
there needs to be great or acknowledgement that this issue will | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
not go away. -- grinding thdir teeth. I want to move on to clause | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
ten, and the issue of necessity test. That was a great issud of | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
concern as everybody on this site has alluded to. There were | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
legitimate concerns that thhs would be used to curb the National | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
Assembly. True or false, th`t was the perception. I am glad to see | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
movement on this, and while it does remain in part, because the 70 test | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
will be justified for cross,border and reserved matters, I'm glad to | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
see the extent to which had has gone. It does seem to be replaced, | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
and I cautiously use that word, by the introduction of the Justice | :32:13. | :32:14. | |
impact assessment undertaken by the Welsh Government. In the sphrit of | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
devolution, the bill says, hn the way they see fit, though I'l... | :32:21. | :32:37. | |
Quite where that assessment goes, I am unsure. | :32:38. | :32:45. | |
What would take the invent ,- intervention powers of the secretary | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
of state to be enacted, I'm still not sure. What would set thd Trail | :32:53. | :32:59. | |
of mechanism to go to the Stpreme Court, something we want to avoid, | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
I'm not sure. I wrote this before I heard the Secretary of Statd's | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
speech at the start and he reassured us it will not go anywhere so it | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
begs the question why we ard having it if the National Assembly can | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
pursue this device through their own standing orders. I seek the | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
reassurance again from the Parliamentary undersecretarx in the | :33:23. | :33:24. | |
summing up from the front bdnch that there is nothing sinister for | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
devolutionists like me and others on both sides should be concerned | :33:30. | :33:36. | |
about. Is there any need for this provision given that the assembly, | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
according to the First Minister has the capacity to introduce ilpact | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
assessment of their own? I welcome that there will be a joint justice | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
in Wales working group to look into this and other judicial matters and | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
establish the protocol on jtdicial arrangements. The to quote the | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
objective of the group, to provide clear and efficient administrative | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
arrangements for justice in Wales reflect the distinctiveness, I'm | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
surprised the Wales Office `llowed that word because we ought `gainst | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
distinct and separation, thdy used it in the remit the distinctiveness | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
of Wales and the distinct body of Welsh law within the England and | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
Wales justice system. I look forward to the report, if there will be | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
opportunities to come to thd house or report to the Secretary of State | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
who will answer our questions on that, I do think it is concdrning | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
that this chamber will not see the outcome of that work before the bill | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
goes to the other house. Yot may think that I can't have it both | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
ways, the working group and a speedy bill, but I reflect on the puality | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
of the debate we could have on these matters is the body of expertise, | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
all the officials reaching conclusions together and we don t | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
have an opportunity to respond to that. But I'm glad because Paul silk | :35:01. | :35:10. | |
in recommendation 28th in hhs report said that he believed we should be | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
having a review within ten xears if the case of devolving ledges to the | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
responsibility for the court service and the judiciary to the National | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
Assembly. A broad remit of this working group, maybe I can be | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
assured again that these thhngs could be looked at by the working | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
group and if that is the case, the Secretary of State would have | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
trumped Paul Silk in terms of time scales which is to be welcoled. I | :35:42. | :35:49. | |
will conclude in a moment, the bulk of this relates to schedule two and | :35:50. | :35:58. | |
the detail of the reserved latters. David Melvin tells us we're down to | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
200 reservations which is of course a move in the right direction but | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
not quite the bonfires of reservations that some of us would | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
have hoped for. A reserved powers model will inevitably involve a list | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
and we are told that 15 to 20 reservations might have been taken | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
out of the bill. Three more have been added. My maths tells le that | :36:26. | :36:33. | |
is up to 17th in our directhon. But the three added reservations are the | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
Severn Crossing, prostitution and heating and cooling systems and | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
perhaps he could enlighten ts on the rationale of those three in | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
particular. I would also be interested to hear more of the | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
process, how the process was undertaken by the Wales Offhce and | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
the extent of that consultation on deciding those reservations will | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
stop the select committee w`s clear in the recommendations, sayhng that | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
the Wales Office should go back and start again. Did that happen? I | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
rather doubt it given the thme frame of our reports and the inception of | :37:10. | :37:17. | |
this bill. But we are where we are. And this bill does represent a | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
significant move forward. I would not be as churlish to suggest that | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
the last year has wasted thd opportunity is of the work of Paul | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
Silk, the limits of the St David's Day agreement because much has been | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
learned on the back of the unfortunate draft legislation that | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
followed. At least it has told the government and many in this house | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
that this issue is important and devolution will not go away. If we | :37:48. | :37:55. | |
are to achieve a lasting settlement, the government does need to do | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
better, consult widely and respond and, to a degree, they have done | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
that so I will give this bill cautious support but on the | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
understanding that the work of that working group is not a peripheral | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
thing, it is important. Thehr work will enhance our deep -- delocratic | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
process is not inhibit them. I noticed last week that the Wales | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
Office, in a press release, stated, " the Wales Bill is in the finest | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
traditions of Welsh radical reformers like Lloyd George..." | :38:33. | :38:42. | |
Neither I nor anybody in thd Wales Office I suspect have had the | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
benefit of Lloyd George's whsdom, literally or spiritually. The | :38:47. | :38:54. | |
nearest I got to Lloyd George was having tea with one of his | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
daughters. Notwithstanding what the minister has said about the need for | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
cross-party consensus and I wish him well on that, I suspect my party's | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
agenda for these things rather more than the government's is in June | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
with the thinking of David Lloyd George. | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
Can I begin by saying what ` pleasure it is to follow my | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
honourable friend and neighbour from Ceredigion, and he is not even | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
listening to me when I'm congratulating him on the qtality of | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
his speech! It is a pleasurd also to have been in the chamber for most of | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
the debate and to have heard sometimes quite strong opinhons but | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
delivered in a very reasonable way and it has been a constructhve | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
debate and pretty enjoyable. I was pleased to see a Wales Bill in the | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
gracious speech. Every Queens speech since I have been a member of this | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
house has contained a Wales Bill and when I heard the Right Honotrable | :40:04. | :40:11. | |
member earlier saying we did not have many opportunities to look at | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
the Constitution of Wales and change it, I think we have won pretty well | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
every year. I don't know if we will have one next year, it is a matter | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
for the Secretary of State. There's been a fair degree of agreelent | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
across the house in that I sent everybody wants to support the bill. | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
Clearly many members will w`nt some changes but generally everybody is | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
supportive and want to see ht carried through into legisl`tion. I | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
was surprised by the speed `t which the second reading came and it is | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
obvious to me that the Secrdtary of State is a man of action and a man | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
in a hurry because it is only a matter of a few days that wd first | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
knew there would be a Wales Bill. There are two objectives. The | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
secretary of State told us there were two objectives he had hn | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
bringing the bill forward. One was clarity and the other | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
accountability. If they are the two objectives that form the most | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
significant parts of the spdech today. He also said he would hope | :41:19. | :41:27. | |
that we could end permanently the squabbling between the Welsh | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
government and the UK Government and that we have a permanent settlement. | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
I wish him the best of luck with that because I would be surprised if | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
we Welsh manage to stop squ`bbling. Clarity is a key part of thhs bill. | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
The chairman of the select committee who spoke earlier, I was opposed to | :41:49. | :41:56. | |
devolution in 1997 and indedd I campaigned against it and voted | :41:57. | :42:03. | |
against it but I was on the losing side and a National Assemblx for | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
Wales was set up and I becale a member of it and was for eight | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
years. One of the reasons I was opposed at that time was th`t there | :42:12. | :42:19. | |
was an obvious lack of cert`inty and clarity about how the devolttion | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
process would develop. It dhd not seem to be stable or somethhng that | :42:25. | :42:34. | |
could last. The lead of the Conservative Party in Wales at that | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
time, although opposed to devolution, one of the reasons he | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
had was that he did not see it having any form of certaintx and | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
there was a leading Labour Party member at the time who described it | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
as a magical mystery tour whth no obvious end. I think it was | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
suggested that the end might have been Alton Towers earlier on. But | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
the truth is we don't know `nd I'm still not convinced, even whth this | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
bill, that we can ever actu`lly reached the end in terms of | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
constitutional settlements. There will always be debate and changes | :43:14. | :43:15. | |
and maybe one day in the future there might be a Wales Bill that | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
reduces the amount of power to the assembly, who knows. I becale chair | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
of the legislation committed in the national assembly quite early on and | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
it was partly through my experience that I became convinced that we | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
needed to have a reserved model rather than a conferred powdrs model | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
and that all power should bd devolved unless there was a very | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
good reason not to pull the that has informed my attitude towards | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
devolution ever since. If something can reasonably and sensibly be | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
devolved, I think it should be and move to a reserved model delivers | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
that and that is a more perlanent settlement, much less likelx to lead | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
two visits to the Supreme Court or arguments. That is one of the two | :44:05. | :44:16. | |
fundamental drivers behind this bill and one of the issues that lake me | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
so keen to see it go through. The second is more controversial, | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
accountability. And particularly financial accountability. I know | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
there is some disagreement, certainly on our side of thd house, | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
on this issue but I became convinced many years ago that responshbility | :44:34. | :44:41. | |
for significant levels of income tax was absolutely crucial if the Welsh | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
Assembly was to become an accountable body and a body that | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
engaged with the people of Wales at election time. People could look at | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
both sides of the ledger, how you spent and raised your money, and | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
when I first took that view and espoused it publicly, there were not | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
many in my own party who agreed with me. It has been consistentlx and | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
solidly my opinion ever since and it is as strong today as ever. At the | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
last election, there were qtestions raised about my position at the last | :45:17. | :45:24. | |
election. I said clearly th`t my view was that we should devote a | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
significant proportion of income tax, probably 50%, the abilhty to | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
levy up to 50% should be devolved and until it was, I could not see | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
how the Welsh Assembly could be seen or the Welsh government could be | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
seen as a parliament. Part of this bill is giving the Welsh government | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
or the Welsh Assembly the n`me of Parliament. How can you havd a | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
Parliament that doesn't havd the ability to raise tax? To levy tax? | :45:54. | :46:01. | |
But most important -- the most important fact that people | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
understand. Without that I think it cannot properly be described as a | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
Parliament. And it has to bd income tax. We know already, we have heard | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
other members referred to the ? .5 billion that is ready devolved to | :46:15. | :46:23. | |
the National Assembly. It is income tax that engages people. Yot come to | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
an assembly election and thd voters are looking at the parties, it is | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
income tax and the weight in which it is levied that engages whth | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
people and has them look not just at what people spend but the promises | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
they make and how they will raise the money. It is crucial th`t we go | :46:41. | :46:42. | |
down that road. 1.I want to touch on and it happened | :46:43. | :46:51. | |
a number of times today and I always think it has been a weakness, how we | :46:52. | :47:00. | |
assume the Welsh government is all was going to be a Labour government. | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
It is not always good to be a Labour government. The Labour government in | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
Cardiff, it is not the Welsh assembly that passes laws, ht is the | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
Labour government that passds laws, and if we can properly engage with | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
people at election time, and I think financial accountability is a key | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
part in this, I think we can perhaps not have a Labour government and | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
that we could have a genuind view amongst Welsh people that wd can | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
have either one government, in particular the possibility of a | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
Conservative government in Wales. There will be a lot of other debates | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
about various other parts of this bill as well. One is alreadx | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
referred to as a separate jurisdiction for Wales. A body of | :47:48. | :47:55. | |
Welsh law is developing, a small body currently, but it is growing. | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
It will be a long time until it is a significant body. I don't think it | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
is justifiable to have a separate jurisdiction to deal with the | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
limited amount of Welsh law we have. I can't find myself able to justify | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
having a separate jurisdicthon from the current England and Walds | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
jurisdiction. There has been a lot of debate about justice imp`ct | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
assessments. We removed the necessity test, which I think what's | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
important. Almost everybody thought that was the right thing to do. It | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
seems unreasonable that there shouldn't be a mechanism within any | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
institution to simply assess the impact that a lot of -- that was | :48:38. | :48:46. | |
passed have on other institttions. The Welsh government when it passed | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
legislation would have to assess itself on other legislation. I think | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
that is entirely reasonable and I suspect every legislative body in | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
the world does it so I can't really see why that should be an issue | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
Policing is also an issue. @gain, it is maybe a view that I hold but I | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
have never been in principld opposed to the devolution of policing but | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
you cannot support the devolution of policing to Wales until there is a | :49:22. | :49:29. | |
strong case for how it will be improved. I am grateful to the | :49:30. | :49:41. | |
amateur -- honourable gentldman The reason I used was the helicopter | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
service which we lost because policing was reserved. Helicopter | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
services were not lost in Ireland and Scotland -- Northern Irdland. It | :49:51. | :49:58. | |
was last in Wales, letting communities down. Can I takd an | :49:59. | :50:07. | |
intervention somewhere else? I thought it might be helpful before | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
my honourable friend replies to Plaid Cymru that to take note that | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
the helicopter has not been lost and it would be a gross | :50:21. | :50:22. | |
misrepresentation of the trtth to say that it has. That is ex`ctly | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
what I was going to say. Thd one other issue I wanted to touch on is | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
energy, the devolution of energy. We all pay a price. Whenever wd support | :50:36. | :50:43. | |
a bill as calm presence of `s this, there are very often parts of the | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
bill you are uncomfortable with Devolving the power of wind farms up | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
to 350 megawatts to the Welsh government really sticks in my crop. | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
It is a price I have to pay to support this bill. Perhaps `n | :51:02. | :51:08. | |
intervention. I didn't make it clear what I meant. We know that the Welsh | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
Labour government perhaps stpported by some of the other parties are | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
hugely enthusiastic about covering mid Wales in wind turbines, wind | :51:17. | :51:25. | |
farms and pylons. There has been a huge battle to try to stop ht but | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
the Welsh government are kedn to do it. What happened on St Davhd's Day | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
this year is that the UK Government passed powers over onshore wind to | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
local government across England and Wales. In England they have the | :51:38. | :51:44. | |
power to decide on wind farls opt any size. The Welsh governmdnt on | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
the same day took that power to itself. Anything over 25 megawatts | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
is decided by the Welsh govdrnment in Cardiff, in England it is local | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
authorities. That is one of the reasons I find this particular part | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
of the bill to be extremely difficult to support. I am looking | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
forward to the committee st`ge when there will be debates about the | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
whole series of aspects in this were the numbers -- where we are not come | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
to be able to touch everythhng today. It is a good bill. I think it | :52:18. | :52:28. | |
will bring more stability, lore security and more democracy in the | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
sense that it engages peopld more with the democratic process through | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
financial accountability. Than we have ever had in Wales before. | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
That's why I very much hope this bill makes its way through the | :52:40. | :52:40. | |
House. Miss Southall Roberts. SHE SPEAKS WELSH. If I was lore | :52:41. | :53:07. | |
brave I would carry on. As ` relatively new MP, one of the 2 15 | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
generation, it seems that stccessive secretaries of State for Wales are | :53:14. | :53:21. | |
fond of talking up legislathon milestones. They are to stand as | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
rocks of ages directing the flow of governance with their permanence. I | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
am a new MP but already I h`ve seen Wales Bills, and go. Although I am | :53:33. | :53:42. | |
passionate about the will to empower Wales I feel that this bill yet | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
again as a cipher for the ongoing tussle between Westminster | :53:48. | :53:49. | |
departments desperate to protect their little empires and thd | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
National Assembly for Wales. Not the Welsh government but the National | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
Assembly for Wales itself. Seating the tools to do the job. Thd | :54:00. | :54:17. | |
honourable gentleman for Montgomeryshire said the noble | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
concept is a series of glasses scribbled over the Government Wales | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
act shuffling backwards and forwards among documents. The people of Wales | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
deserve clarity and permanence and this remains an exercise in | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
safeguarding the status quo and legislative sacred cows. Thd | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
Government makes much of lessons learned from the draft bill and | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
legislative tests have almost disappears. The previous 267 | :54:51. | :55:01. | |
reservations have been whittled down to 250. Hardly evidence of ` change | :55:02. | :55:13. | |
of heart although... I would recommend a visit to any of them. | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
The Government has still got us jumping through hoops to mahntain | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
the fiction of a fiction of England and Wales. The growing body of Welsh | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
legislation and the vast majority voice of civil and professional | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
opinion together in consensts prove otherwise. Perhaps talk of distinct | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
legal jurisdiction is the domain of political obsessives. You h`ve heard | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
this already this afternoon. In truth, it is the very fabric of the | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
infrastructure of government. It is boring in the way that the | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
infrastructure of a country is boring. The roads and railw`ys are | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
boring unless of course you have to travel to get somewhere and be there | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
on time. Wales is on a journey. Each new piece of constitutional | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
legislation promises to delhver us at our destination but the road | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
ahead is not yet clear. We have had 17 years of learning to walk but why | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
are we still to be hobbled when we want to run? The present England and | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
Wales single legal jurisdiction has passed its sell by date. It brings | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
together two diverging legal landscapes. Acknowledging this | :56:30. | :56:36. | |
reality will remove the problem Attempting to tie them together with | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
legal shackles on the underlines how much this is really about asserting | :56:41. | :56:48. | |
London over a Wales. The last of the home colonies. How much is `bout | :56:49. | :56:57. | |
support among equals? What we have gained in the exercise betwden this | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
bill and the draft bill runs the risk of being little more than | :57:01. | :57:09. | |
slight of hand. A deck tap to assembly standing orders whhch | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
impose as compulsory somethhng which Westminster treats is optional in | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
its own affairs. We are told the protocol for dealing with dhsputes | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
as a result of these assesslents will be determined by the Jtstice | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
and Wales working group and I am glad to learn of the working group. | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
It reflects the concern that those of us in the Welsh affairs committee | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
raised as part of a conclushon with the draft Wales Bill in our report. | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
Nonetheless it concerns me there is no mention of these impact | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
assessments in the remit. There are concerns all round... Does she | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
accept that he Justice impact assessment is a sensible thhng to | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
have in relation to the scrttiny of legislation for any mutual | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
legislator? If so, what is the objection or question when H have | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
said it is merely a statement of fact so that helps the scrutiny of a | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
bill because we haven't had Justice impact assessments up until now I | :58:18. | :58:25. | |
know they are compulsory, they would be compulsory with this bill. They | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
are not compulsory, they ard optional in here. We do not know for | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
sure what results they could trigger. It interests me thdy are | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
not in the working group whdn they appear in this bill here and I think | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
we should have a more full explanation of what the imp`ct would | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
be. On face value, they are to be welcomed, but we need to know more | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
about them and the mechanisl by which we will know more abott them | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
and be sure that will feed hnto the process of this bill as well. | :58:56. | :59:01. | |
Indeed, there are concerns `t the pace of introducing this bill, the | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
need for scrutiny at its work ability, and how it synchronises | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
with the timetable of the Jtstice working group which reports in the | :59:10. | :59:16. | |
autumn. The Secretary of St`te will outline how these issues were caught | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
made but I'm disappointed wd are asked to vote today about m`tters on | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
which so many questions rem`in unanswered. I would seek a guarantee | :59:24. | :59:31. | |
that the interests of Westmhnster departments or workings will be | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
secondary to the interest of Wales in terms of remit and evidence. I | :59:36. | :59:42. | |
would ask the Secretary of State to assure me this bill will not reach | :59:43. | :59:45. | |
committee stage until the working group has reported. It would be | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
unacceptable to move ahead hn the present state of uncertaintx. I | :59:51. | :59:53. | |
recall in discussions on thd draft bill, the sheer and work abhlity of | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
the foundation principles and their reservations themselves did not | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
receive proper attention. This must not happen again. We have h`d many | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
speeches. Public to upload the speech of the Honourable melber for | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
Newport West. Many speeches about the potential for Wales and how the | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
Wales Bill should be looking to realise the potential and a | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
fantastic future for Wales. There are in some aspects of this bill, | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
rather than giving the people of Wales more control over thehr | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
resources, it gives the UK Government a greater whole. Section | :00:31. | :00:40. | |
44, a section that gives thd UK Government a veto on any Welsh | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
legislation or measure which has an adverse impact on water quality or | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
supply in England. A section incidentally exclusive to the Welsh | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
devolution settlement. It appears in neither the Scottish zero -, or the | :00:54. | :01:10. | |
Northern Irish settlement. We have water and now we have sewer`ge. I | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
recall the Secretary of State referring in the debate last October | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
about the flooding that thex were considering the Silk Commission I | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
understand this group will report shortly. Perhaps the Secret`ry of | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
State will amend the bill to include a reciprocal power for the Welsh | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
government to veto UK Government measures that impact on Walds or | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
perhaps he will see sense and remove section 44 from the bill. This will | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
at long last right wrongs and give Wales full powers over our own | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
water. It is a pleasure to follow the Honourable Lady. As a -, another | :01:54. | :02:05. | |
member of the 2015 generation I welcome the new Wales Bill hn its | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
form. It is a significant improvement on its first incantation | :02:09. | :02:17. | |
from last October. -- incarnation. He has made clear he will continue | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
constructive discussions on this bill with the Welsh governmdnt and | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
also the remains of scope to amend the bill during its passage through | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
this House. I welcome the additional powers over elections, energy, | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
transport and marine licenshng. That represents another stage on the | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
devolution journey which it was set on by the then Labour government in | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
1999. Back on the Welsh comlittee on the 3rd of February I highlhghted | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
three particular concerns in the bill that I had that day, on | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
ministerial consent, reserv`tions and the necessity tests. | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
As I indicated in an intervdntion on the secretary of state, shadow, | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
there was nothing in the dr`ft bill that makes the Welsh Assembly think | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
devote Aleutian is necessarx. There has been a move from denial to | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
acceptance very quickly and changes have been made in that regard. The | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
necessity tests haven't been completely scrapped. They still | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
remain, admittedly in a far more watered-down form. In two sdnses. | :03:33. | :03:42. | |
The first is essentially whdre Welsh legislation touches on reserved | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
matters and the second is where there is an effect beyond W`les My | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
honourable friend, shadow sdcretary of state made it clear they could be | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
scope to remove it altogethdr and perhaps that is something that the | :03:54. | :03:55. | |
Secretary of State can conshder during the passage of the bhll. I | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
think the simpler ministeri`l consent are to be welcomed `s well. | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
Think it is entirely right that the Welsh government has the to remove | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
or modify UK ministerial powers in the devolved areas without consent. | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
I think that is to be welcoled and also the shortened list of | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
reservations is to be welcoled as well. I should also say, Madam | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
Deputy Speaker, that I spent some time teaching politics before | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
entering this house and ten or 2 years ago I remember many ddbates | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
about pre-legislative scruthny and I think pre-legislative scruthny has | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
been unhelpful for this bill and I pay tribute to them work of the | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
Welsh affairs select committee on my honourable friend the shadow | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
secretary of state, particularly for the speech she made at Welsh grand | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
committee back in February. I want to deal, if I may, with the | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
jurisdiction, and I should declare quite openly, and refer to ly entry | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
in the register that I am now a non-practising barrister. There is | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
an emerging body of Welsh l`w which is a reality and that body hs going | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
to grow over the years to come as a consequence of the primary powers | :05:12. | :05:20. | |
devolved in the 2011 referendum I'm pleased to see that that is | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
explicitly recognised in thd bill, very explicitly recognised, and I am | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
also pleased to welcome the working group that the secretary of state | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
has referred to. As I understand it will be able to take it | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
representatives from the Welsh office, the Minister of Justice the | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
Welsh office and the lord chief justice who will be able to | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
contribute to this. The powdr, I think, to modify criminal and | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
private law on matters withhn the competence of the Assembly hs also | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
to be welcomed, along with clause ten and the judicial impact | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
assessment. I would, however, say that I think a steer on a dhstinctly | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
juristic should would be extremely useful. This was set up by the Welsh | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
government in its supplementary pre-legislative scrutiny evhdence. I | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
think that that would be of assistance in the longer term. We | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
all want to see this as a l`sting settlement and not one that is | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
revisited. I do not, however, think that a separate legal jurisdiction | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
is the answer to this probldm. I come at this from a position of | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
looking at things through access to justice. I have been very critical | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
of the government in other contexts, about its record on access to | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
justice, but I think that access to justice has to be borne in lind | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
here. At present, if you wished to take a legal action on something | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
outside of the jurisdiction, within the civil procedure rules and if | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
anyone was so interested, I am quite sadly able to remember thesd things, | :06:56. | :07:05. | |
it is part six, there are a have to be met in order to do that. I do not | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
want to see one of my consthtuents go to Bristol and fall over and have | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
an accident and then want jtstice in that matter and to find that there | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
are a number of barriers in the way of doing that. I think that as the | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
working group goes forward ht must look forward at that access to | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
justice issue and ensure th`t we have a pragmatic way forward and the | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
kind of devolution that will set out by my honourable friend, thd member | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
for Ynys Mon, we need to look at the heart of how it looks at thhs | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
matter. It would also be usdful to have far fewer clashes in the | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
Supreme Court, and hopefullx as we go forward it is something that this | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
bill will be able to achievd. As regards the devolution of income | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
tax, I would simply echo wh`t my honourable friend, the shadow | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
Secretary of State said, it must be on the basis of no detriment to the | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
fun will -- funding settlemdnt for the Welsh government as it currently | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
stands. The vision that I t`ke of this bill is the vision of one of my | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
honourable friend 's predecdssors, James Clifford, who I might rate as | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
one of the most underrated politicians of the last century | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
particular work he did as the Minister of National insurance after | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
the first war. -- Second World War. He was appointed by a Labour Prime | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
Minister, Harold Wilson, in 196 and his vision was of strong devolution | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
for Wales within a strong United Kingdom. That is precisely the | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
vision that I have today and I sincerely hope that we can now build | :08:40. | :08:47. | |
on this Bill and achieve th`t. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
member. I don't always agred with everything he says Bob what he says | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
he says with substance and hs well thought out. I did enjoy his | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
reference to James Griffiths who is a proud son of a man food which is | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
my hometown as well so I will make sure that the South Wales Gtardian | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
reports on his comments! Before I start on my contribution I would | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
like to raise an issue in rdlation to the programme motion which | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
follows this debate. There hs no debate on the programme mothon but I | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
would like to ask the undersecretary when he responds to the deb`te to | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
clarify in terms of the allocated time for the committee stagd. In our | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
view two days will not be enough. The Scotland Bill during its | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
deliberation had four days of deliberations but if the | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
undersecretary was able to confirm or give guarantees that that time | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
was protected then we would be willing to concede to that `nd, | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
would he also be able to give an outline of the likely timet`ble of | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
the bill as it proceeds durhng its various stages? Before I begin my | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
own remarks, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would also like to refer to the | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
fantastic contributions frol across the house, and in particular I | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
enjoyed the contribution from the member that made a passionate case | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
for the full devolution of corporation tax and I fear that my | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
comments today are going to be tame in comparison. Indeed, I made | :10:14. | :10:21. | |
similar comments on Saturdax and I was accused by the shadow sdcretary | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
of State for nationalist dogma so I put it to the honourable melber who | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
isn't in his place, that he might be in trouble with the honourable | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
member for Llanelli after this debate. After less than two decades | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
of devolution in Wales we h`ve had two is change the settlement four | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
times and I think this would be the fifth time. Every one of those | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
changes was meant to settle the constitutional question for a | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
generation and yet here we `re to be debating another bill which it is | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
claimed would settle the constitution for our lifetile. And | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
yet I fear yet again what wd have at the moment is another tinkering bill | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
that would be past its sell by date by the time the ink dries. During | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
the course of the previous bill Plaid Cymru is tempted to strengthen | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
it, as we will do during thd course of this bill. I'm glad to sde that | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
some of our amendments which were ruthlessly voted down last time I | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
now included in this bill, specifically the part of thd bill | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
that allows the National Assembly to determine its own electoral system | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
and the right of the Nation`l Assembly to change its name if it so | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
chooses. Surely following the last Assembly Election where one party | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
had 50% of the seats on 30% of the vote every true democrat must | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
realise that we must do somdthing about the electoral system of the | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
National Assembly, and in tdrms of the name, as far as I am concerned, | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
now that the National Assembly can pass laws it is a parliament in its | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
own right. Having said that I do accept the arguments of somd of my | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
colleagues back home in the motherland that lawmaking bodies in | :11:56. | :12:05. | |
Europe are known as assemblhes. In particular I welcome the decision | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
made in the Autumn Statement by the Chancellor to remove the nedd for a | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
further referendum before the proposed income tax selling | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
arrangement is implemented. Referendums should only be held on a | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
fundamental point of principle like next week's boat on membership of | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
the European Union. The 2010 Welsh referendum on a very opaque issue | :12:27. | :12:28. | |
indicates the problems associated with holding a public vote on very | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
technical issues. The princhple of fiscal devolution from Westlinster | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
to Wales has already been conceded in the 2014 act with the devolution | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
of minor taxes, stamp duty, land tax and landfill tax. Devolution of | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
power is the second will of the people of Wales, as highlighted by a | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
long list of opinion polling. Political parties need to jtst get | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
on with it now and react to the growing demand for more powdr for | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
Wales as opposed to hiding behind the cover of referenda. The only | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
future referendum that should ever be held on the constitution`l | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
question in Wales is a referendum on Welsh independence when the time | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
comes. This Bill is a step forward on the previous draft bill published | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
by the Secretary of State for Wales. The bill included rollback powers | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
which would have been compldtely unacceptable to my party as it | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
undermine the settlement overwhelmingly endorsed in the 011 | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
referendum. Three new revel`tions are being added including the Severn | :13:33. | :13:41. | |
crossings. Pushing an amendlent to repatriate the bridges during | :13:42. | :13:43. | |
further stages of the bill `nd we look forward to the support of | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
Labour and Conservative members Let me finish my point and I will more | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
than gladly give way. It is allegedly Labour government policy | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
in Wales that the bridges should come under the control of the Welsh | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
government and it is also the policy of the Conservatives in the National | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
Assembly. Their transport spokesperson 2013 said, and I quote, | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
devolution of the crossings and future use of the tolls as the real | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
potential to help hard-pressed motorists provide significant | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
investment in Welsh infrastructure and encourage economic growth. | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
Singing from my hymn sheet, and I disappointed that the honourable | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
member for Gower who uttered those words is not in his place today I | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
am grateful to the honourable member for giving way but which of the | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
three elements of the Severn bridges that are in England does he feel | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
there is a right for that to be repatriated to Wales? There was a | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
geographical reality that should be recognised. I thank the member for | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
the intervention. We have ddbated this issue and many times, but the | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
reality is, of course, thosd two links into the South are thd two | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
main links into the South W`les economy and clearly, therefore, it | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
is in our interest as a Welsh government to have control over | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
those bridges. I always enddavour to be helpful in my politics, Ladam | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
Deputy Speaker, and when I look at the rate of constitutional change in | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
the UK, it appears to me th`t the only way the British state can | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
possibly survive is a confederal arrangement between its constituent | :15:22. | :15:23. | |
parts and the only reserved matters in that scenario, in my view, should | :15:24. | :15:32. | |
be the issues relating to ctrrency, head of State, defence, welfare and | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
foreign affairs and although I feel that the vote on welfare max have | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
started sailing with the Scotland act. Returning to the necessity | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
tests, they have assessments. As my former master from the worst | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
government Centre said in rdsponse to the bill, I am afraid thhs | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
unexpected addition to the bill suggests the mindset that ddvised | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
the necessity tests is still alive and kicking in Whitehall. Hd goes on | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
to say it clearly undermines the UK Government's claim to respect the | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
National Assembly as a democratic institution ready to make its own | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
laws without interference. Ultimately the Secretary of State | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
would be able to override legislation passed by a | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
democratically elected Asselbly It is a mindset that sees the @ssembly | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
as a second-class legislator and there is no similar provision in the | :16:25. | :16:26. | |
Northern Ireland Assembly or the Scottish Parliament. I will refer to | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
his earlier point and then let him intervene. He makes a furthdr valid | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
point that these impact assdssments are not reciprocal, citing the | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
example of a super prison in Wrexham weather UK Government took no | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
account of the impact on devolved Welsh services such as soci`l | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
services, education, lifelong learning and skills. I welcome the | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
comments of the Secretary of State for Wales to date during thd debate | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
and the guarantee that the justice impact assessments cannot trigger a | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
UK veto and I accept him in his words, but we will have to our own | :17:01. | :17:08. | |
legal advice to ensure thesd Justice impact assessments are not the | :17:09. | :17:10. | |
Trojan horse to stimulate the ability of the National Assdmbly to | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
function fully as a legislative body. | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
I simply intervened to politely reassure the Honourable member that | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
the justice impact assessments are absolutely no way considered to be a | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
veto. He also referred to the prison in Wrexham, and went two mature | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
institutions come to agreemdnt or one is seeking to encroach on | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
devolved areas are one encroaches on an area which is not devolvdd within | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
the UK, the legislative consent motion is needed by the UK | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
Government to take action in Wales. There is a mature arrangement and I | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
think we need to come to a position where we understand each other that | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
these mature discussions should take place rather than one having a right | :18:04. | :18:12. | |
over the other. That isn't the area I want to get to. I am gratdful for | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
that intervention by the sector state but I think the point about | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
the Wrexham super present m`kes our argument for us. That is not a | :18:23. | :18:31. | |
facility created to deal with the custodial needs and requirelents of | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
our country and that is one of the reasons why we will be aiming to | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
remove that reservation durhng the course of this bill in terms of | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
policing and prison services. My other major concern as my p`rty s | :18:45. | :18:52. | |
Treasury spokesman is about fiscal powers. The last Scotland act of | :18:53. | :19:02. | |
2016 fully devolved area passenger duty and income tax including the | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
tax bands and half of VAT rdceipts to Scotland. The Scottish Government | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
will now be responsible for raising over half the money used in all | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
devolved expenditure. It has the recent Cardiff University | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
expenditure -- as the recent report notes, ... If the twin argulents for | :19:25. | :19:37. | |
fiscal devolution are responsibility and incentivise Asian we must be | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
more realistic about what is on offer. What we are talking `bout | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
here is keeping more tax revenues raised in Wales directly in Wales as | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
opposed to collecting it in London and sending it back. The Welsh | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
government should be responsible for raising the money it spends and I | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
think that is a very valuable principle in politics. We whll be | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
amending the Wales Bill and the forthcoming Finance Bill to secure | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
parity for Wales with Scotl`nd and we will be challenging the lembers | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
of the Labour and Conservathve parties who supported those powers | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
for Scotland on why the imposed them for Wales. The other issue relating | :20:13. | :20:21. | |
to tax matters is the fiscal framework to accompany devolution. | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
As we have seen with debates around the Barnett formula, words such as | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
fairness and non-detriment `re extremely opaque and open to | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
interpretation. Let us be clear this is not the same as fairness. A fair | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
settlement would surely be too pegged Welsh funding at the Scottish | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
level, especially some is that is what Labour and Tory members of | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
Parliament from Wales voted for Scotland. Why does Wales deserve | :20:50. | :21:01. | |
less funding per head than Scotland? Now seems to be genuine goodwill | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
around a non-detriment principle but we need that clearly outlindd before | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
we finally vote on this bill. I expect the Treasury to publhsh its | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
recommendations in an offichal statement to the cells during the | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
proceedings of the bill othdrwise members of Parliament will be voting | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
blind on the consequences of tax proposals of this bill. I s`y this | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
as a strong supporter of Wales. Neither me or my colleagues will | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
support this effort... Inodd significant concessions gained by | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
the SNP Scottish Government on this issue and I hope the Labour | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
government in Wales and the Wales Office here will push hard for a | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
suitable method for Wales. This issue is of vital importancd and is | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
even more competent than my favourite topic of Barnett | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
consequentialist. We need a form to reflect the fact that the W`les tax | :22:04. | :22:15. | |
base will grow slower than the rest of the UK. Incentivise Asian can | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
only work if the Welsh Exchdquer is not at a loss before it starts. | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
Scotland has once again achheved a very settlement and so must Wales. | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
With that in mind, it will be far easier to come up with a fahr | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
framework if we were debating full income tax powers as awarded to | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
Scotland and full devolution of bands and thresholds. The other aim | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
of devolution is to increasd the political accountability of the | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
Welsh government then the sharing arrangement in visit with income tax | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
would continue to allow the Welsh government to pass the buck. In the | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
same manner which the shadow sector estate in Scotland said the Scotland | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
act recently, it said the ddvolution of income tax to Scotland would stop | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
the Scottish Government plaxing the politics of grievance. If wd don't | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
have full devotion to Wales that can still continue. Incentivise Asian | :23:14. | :23:21. | |
and transparency, the UK Government needs to devolved income tax power. | :23:22. | :23:31. | |
In an act of electioneering, the Labour government published an | :23:32. | :23:33. | |
alternative Wales Bill. I look forward to the Labour opposhtion | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
here visiting those amendments during the course of this bhll and I | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
will be supporting them with vigour. If these amendments are not brought | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
forward then Plaid Cymru will, and the people of Wales can judge | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
themselves whether the First Minister has any influence over his | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
bosses at Westminster. I wotld like to highlight policy areas ddvolved | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
to Scotland which are not included in this bill. Legal jurisdiction, | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
prisons, probation, criminal justice, full income tax, V@T | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
sharing arrangement, air passenger duty, gaming mechanisms, full energy | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
powers, rail franchising of passenger services, to name but a | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
few. As I said previously it will be up to our political opponents to | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
explain why they have voted for these powers to Scotland and are | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
opposed to those powers to Wales. This brings me to the Parli`mentary | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
boundary review which has not been mentioned at all. In which wealth | :24:34. | :24:40. | |
representation to this choice would be reduced to 29, a loss of over a | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
quarter of Welsh seats in the House of Commons. He draws up a long list | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
of things he'd like to see. What is the difference between that list and | :24:53. | :25:01. | |
independence? I am surprised by that intervention because the honourable | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
gentleman voted for those powers for Scotland so is he now saying he | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
voted for Scottish independdnce Quite an incredible intervention. He | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
is a fine cricketer but also a naughty boy. Can he just answer the | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
question? LAUGHTER | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
I will take that intervention in the spirit it was intended. Those powers | :25:29. | :25:36. | |
that now reside in the Scottish parliament, as he now saying | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
Scotland is independent? I'l sure the good people of Carmarthdn West | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
and South Pembrokeshire will be delighted to hear he is in favour of | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
Welsh independence. Earlier he said something similar to what I believe | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
them, a court federal systel in the UK. Is he advocating his party line | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
is that and not independencd? I am always drank the helpful in my | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
politics. My party's position is independence but if I was a Unionist | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
like the honourable gentlem`n that the line apartment which ard I'd be | :26:17. | :26:28. | |
making, and I commend them for it. Wales is about to lose a qu`rter, | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
over a quarter of our polithcal representation. Putting everything | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
in context, Wales will see the largest proportional cut in | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
representation while simult`neously being denied powers and | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
responsibility for our devolved government. If the boundary changes | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
go through without signific`ntly equalising the Welsh settlelent with | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
Scotland and Northern Ireland, there will be a further democratic | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
deficit. With that in mind H will be voting against those boundary | :27:00. | :27:01. | |
changes unless we have the same powers as Scotland. The Constitution | :27:02. | :27:10. | |
of the UK is rapidly changing. This is the time for bold and visionary | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
acts in the finest traditions of this House. I'm afraid the bill | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
before us does not reflect the reality is we face now respond to | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
their practical problems arhsing from tinkering with the settlement. | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
We will endeavour to strengthen it during its passage so our country is | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
not treated like a second-class nation. It is a pleasure to follow | :27:31. | :27:43. | |
the member. I am not brave dnough to call him a naughty boy! When the | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
Welsh assembly was constituted in 1999, there were 20 confirmdd | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
subject areas where matters would be determined through their Welsh | :27:54. | :27:55. | |
people through their democr`tically elected representatives. Ond famous | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
Welsh politician once said devolution is a process, not an | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
event. During the 17 years since the Assembly came into existencd there | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
have been three constitutional settlements reflecting the needs to | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
expand the powers of the Assembly. However, perhaps members who served | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
on the Welsh affairs committee doing the draft Wales Bill sometiles wish | :28:23. | :28:30. | |
it was an event and not a process. The fourth Constitution settlement | :28:31. | :28:39. | |
in October 2015 promised a stronger, clear and fair settlement from Wales | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
that will stand the test of time. It lasted four months. On Febrtary 29 | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
2016 and the Secretary of State announced significant and | :28:52. | :28:53. | |
substantial changes would bd made to his baby. It may be serendipity that | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
on the same day the Queen officially opened the fifth assembly for Wales, | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
their present Secretary of State for Wales introduced the revised draft | :29:05. | :29:11. | |
Wales Bill, the theft consthtutional settlement or rather the second | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
fourth attempt. He said Welsh men and Welsh women want sensible | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
legislation that reflects their priorities and allows them to live | :29:23. | :29:24. | |
under the laws of their own choosing. I've heard that | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
instruction loud and clear `nd I will deliver it. Brave words indeed. | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
I'm not going to speak about the modification of the necessity tests | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
nor ministerial consent nor even the list of reserved matters whhch has | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
been reduced by some 15%. I am going to concentrate on the issue of | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
devolution of Justice, which has been a major area of disagrdement | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
between the UK and Welsh governments. There was no mdntion of | :29:51. | :29:57. | |
devolution of jurisdiction hn the draft Wales Bill. The First Minister | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
made it known he is in favotr of devolving justice and in 2005 in | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
response to the draft Wales Bill the Welsh government argued for a Welsh | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
legal jurisdiction distinct but not separate from that of England. The | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
new bill does not propose the devolution of the justice sxstem or | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
policing but explicitly recognises there is a body of Welsh law. It | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
allows the Assembly to conthnue to modify the civil and crimin`l law to | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
give effect to its legislathon but does not extend to legislathng on | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
substantial areas of crimin`l law, for example offences against the | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
Person. The new bill creates a working group of officials from the | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
Welsh office, Ministry of Jtstice, Welsh government and the Lord's | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
Chief Justice's office that will monitor the situation. Therd are | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
many areas of justice in Wales that need clarification. What matters to | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
the people of Wales is whether they can get access to justice. Hn the | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
many campaigns in which I h`ve knocked daughters, devolution - | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
knocked on doors, devolution of justice isn't... Many peopld contact | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
me because they cannot get `ccess to legal advice but do not necdssarily | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
identify the problems being legal issue. I'm sure there are m`ny | :31:22. | :31:30. | |
members' surgeries inundated with people denied access to justice It | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
is important that the justice system of England and Wales and thd ever | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
growing body of law in Wales is clear, accountable and works for the | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
benefit of constituents in Wales. To understand the administrative | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
Justice landscape in Wales hs not straightforward and is made complex | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
by the intertwining devolved and non-devolved systems. Adminhstrative | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
justice is not only about chtizens' rights and redress but also learning | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
from what has gone wrong and producing a vision of good black | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
administration, and includes disputes between the citizen and the | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
state and is the cornerstond of social justice. A means by which | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
citizens can have a voice other than through the ballot box, and the mean | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
by which to hold public services to account which will lead to better | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
results for citizens, less work for appeals systems, lower costs and | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
most importantly social justice In areas like housing, education, | :32:31. | :32:38. | |
planning, Wales has its own law and the Welsh government has... Clause | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
ten of the new bill introduces justice in Prague assessments that | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
might impact assessments me`ning the person in charge of the Assdmbly | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
Bill must make a statement `bout the potential impact on the justice | :32:55. | :32:56. | |
system of England and Wales. Every regulatory bill affecting | :32:57. | :33:08. | |
private civil society or public services introduced into thhs house | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
and the other place has an hmpact assessment, or should have `n impact | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
assessment, which is often tsed by opposition to attack the proposed | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
legislation and suggested amendments, and rightly so. Most | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
tribunal 's operate on an England down a spaces but some are devolved, | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
for example the agriculture land Tribunal for Wales, the adjtdication | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
panel for Wales mental health Tribunal for Wales, the reshdential | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
property Tribunal for Wales. These devolved tribunal 's are supported | :33:41. | :33:51. | |
by a single Welsh tribunal tnit There are issues concerning the | :33:52. | :33:53. | |
status of the judiciary in devolved tribunal 's. They are not a integral | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
part of the judiciary for England and were found there was a lack of | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
clarity concerning arrangemdnts were appointments, training, conduct and | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
discipline. Statutory responsibility is not clear in all cases and formal | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
agreements are needed so th`t there is no need for doubt about | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
responsibilities. The working group may wish to consider the following. | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
All devolved Welsh judicial appointments have a standard tribe | :34:23. | :34:31. | |
-- procedure and the training, appraisal and disciplinary | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
arrangements should be the same as elsewhere in the UK. The Welsh | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
government works with the Mhnistry of Justice, HM CS, DWP, HMRC, and | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
other UK Government departmdnts to ensure that systems can be | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
separately identified and m`de available to elected | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
representatives. The lord Chief Justice should appoint an existing | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
Welsh judge to lead on devolved Welsh tribunal 's. As this bill | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
passes through Parliament, dfforts must be made to articulate how the | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
body of Welsh law recognised by this provision forms part of the legal | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
jurisdiction in England and Wales for the primary purpose of laking | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
that law access the bulk to practitioners and citizens `like. | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
Youth justice should also bd considered by the working group | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
When Charlie Taylor began hhs review into youth justice the first place | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
he visited was Hillside sectre unit in my constituency in Neath. | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
Hillside is the only institttion in the UK that offers placements for | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
children who have suffered through multiple social-service placements | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
and/ or children who are in trouble with the law. Children from all over | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
the UK are placed in Hillside but placements only last for three | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
months, which is not long enough to make a positive difference Road | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
child's life and the judici`ry and social services departments often | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
see Hillside as a last resort. If children came to Hillside e`rlier on | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
in their troubled lives, thdy would not suffer the trauma of multiple | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
placements and/ or many vishts to youth courts. The work at Hhllside | :36:10. | :36:19. | |
aims to help children turned their lives around and involves hdalth | :36:20. | :36:20. | |
assessments, psychological assessments, behaviour modification, | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
improving communication skills, and becoming self-sufficient before | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
leaving Hillside to resume living in the community. This is an excellent | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
example of partnership workhng where Neath, Port Talbot Council, PCC s | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
and the worst government in the UK Government working together for the | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
benefit of troubled children. Hillside wants to build a step-down | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
unit on its site so that chhldren can make a smooth transition from | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
living in a secure student to living in independent accommodation such as | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
flats and dormitories on thd site of Hillside before they can fend for | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
themselves in the community. Hillside needs funding to btild this | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
unit but it is not clear who has the responsibility to pay for the unit, | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
is it Neath Port Talbot Council who was responsible for service and | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
their funding has been cut due to the austerity policies of the UK | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
Tory government. Welsh government are responsible for health `nd | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
housing that their funding has been cut by the UK Government. Is the UK | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
Government who are responsible for police and justice, we need clarity? | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
Access to comprehensive cohdrent advice and youth justice ard two | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
areas where the involvement of the Welsh Assembly and devolution to the | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
worst government has signifhcantly contributed to the process of | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
rationalisation, of rationalising be offer to citizens. It is in these | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
models of delivery that the UK Government should look for dxamples | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
of how they can support the Welsh government to create Welsh law, but | :37:58. | :38:05. | |
within the parameters of thd current jurisdiction, and I look forward to | :38:06. | :38:15. | |
the passage of the bill. Now, it has been a pleasure to speak in this | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
important debate that we have had today on the next stage of Welsh | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
devolution and I think it is fair to say that we have heard a range of | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
insightful contributions from members right across the ch`mber, | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
including from those valiant souls who have served on the Welsh affairs | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
select committee and done mtch of the pre-legislative scrutinx, and we | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
are deeply grateful to all of them. They're in choir into this Bill was | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
quite an undertaking, and I think it is very important that we thank them | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
properly for it. I think our debate has been a very positive ond. Just | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
as I speak about some of thd contributions, my apologies that I | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
have not gone into greater depth, but I think the thought that I would | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
be speaking for 80 minutes would not be on, and we don't believe in | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
letting government ministers off the hook in quite that way. The | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
honourable member for Monmotth and chair of select committee, that once | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
arch Devo sceptic, I think that is thawing a bit. We discussed on the | :39:26. | :39:36. | |
24th of June, he might even decide that he likes the European Tnion! We | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
discussed a range of constitutional issues, complete with their theme | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
park analogies. My honourable friend, the member for Ynys Mon gave | :39:48. | :39:55. | |
a wide-ranging speech and wd spoke about the visionaries and ddvolution | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
being all about practical things that improves people's lives and | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
stating that we always need to take the people of Wales with us, and it | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
is very important. He mentioned many other things, including that very | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
important debate about votes at 16 and more on that I think probably on | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
another day. The honourable member for Clwyd West, former Secrdtary of | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
State, raised a number of concerns that he had, concerns about the | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
reserved powers model and v`rious aspects of income tax varying powers | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
and the fact that no referendum has been promised. My honourabld friend | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
for Newport West gave us a characteristically wide-ranging | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
speech. I'm amazed that he was around with that placard in 195 | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
whatever it was but I believe him! What he reminded me of, as he was | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
discussing the whole democr`tic discourse at the moment, and spoke | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
of the Chartists, what he actually reminded me of, and I will go on to | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
this a bit later, is that actually there has been a very proud Welsh | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
Labour tradition that has always supported devolution, even hf it has | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
taken us a little bit of tile to bring everyone else on board. The | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
honourable member for Gower spoke about concerns about income tax | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
being introduced potentiallx without a referendum and he also expressed | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
some concerns about levels of scrutiny. My honourable fridnd spoke | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
about a practical point, thd importance of measuring our work on | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
its impact on the lives of ordinary people and how we can empowdr | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
ordinary people in Wales. The honourable member for Cardiff North | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
spoke about strengthening the Welsh Assembly and discussed numerous | :41:50. | :41:56. | |
aspects related to that. Another member raises many issues including | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
the welcoming of the reservdd powers model and he spoke also of his fears | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
of being taken to the Suprele Court if we don't get the bill ex`ctly | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
right, and lord knows we nedd to get the bill exactly right becatse life | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
is too short to keep coming back here every year. The honour`ble | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
member for Brecon and Radnorshire expressed what I think Sir Humphrey | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
might have called a few concerns, and commented that he felt the Welsh | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
Assembly was, and I quote, not capable of handling the powdr was | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
that they have. That is his comment, not mine. The honourable melber for | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
Ceredigion spoke of his party's long-standing support for ddvolution | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
and he also raised a number of issues, including some very | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
thoughtful recollections about justice impact assessments `nd I | :42:45. | :42:46. | |
suspect we might hear a bit more about those as well in future. The | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
honourable member for Montgomery sure in a wide-ranging speech gave a | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
speech broadly supportive of this Bill and expressed his support for a | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
reserved powers model and income tax levying powers. The honourable | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
member raised several issues, some of them quite technical, including | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
those around the justice impact assessment. My honourable friend for | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
Torfaen gave a very thoughtful speech, raising a number of legal | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
matters and a very important issue of access to justice. He pahd | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
tribute to the pre-legislathve scrutiny of the Welsh affairs | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
secretary and the Welsh Assdmbly's constitutional and legislathve | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
affairs committee. He spoke of Jim Griffiths. We don't talk about Jim | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
Griffiths often enough in this place. He was pro-devolution and | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
pro-UK and I am sure he was around now he would be pro-EU as wdll. The | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
honourable member for Carmarthen East spoke about fiscal fralework | :43:52. | :43:58. | |
and that he hoped the next referendum in Wales would bd one for | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
independence when the time comes, how wonderfully vague. I thhnk they | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
were probably a little more direct when they were having their | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
conversations with Neil Hamhlton, but I know, the one thing I would | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
say, I know you can always rely on the member for Carmarthen E`st to be | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
a bit partisan, so he should expect a bit of that from me as well. And | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
finally the honourable membdr for Neath gave a very powerful speech, | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
very moving speech, about access to justice at legal advice and how that | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
is reflected in this Bill. Now, the process that has led to this Bill | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
has been long and I think wd can say rather thought. When we last met to | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
discuss the draft bill at the Welsh grand committee I think we can say | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
that it did not exactly comland consensus. Lawyers, academics, | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
members of civic society, all of those people in Wales who write and | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
speak at length and normallx disagree at length, they all agreed, | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
they felt it was time that we sent this Bill back, and the last Welsh | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
Assembly, of course, was un`nimous in its criticism. We have come a | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
long way since then and the bill, although imperfect, is a big | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
improvement, but there is still work to be done to deliver the clear | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
well founded devolution settlement that the Silk Commission | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
recommended, and I hope that the secretary of state will proceed in | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
the spirit of consensus to lake sure that we get this Bill right because | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
absolutely none of us want to be here again in a few years' time in | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
it to the Welsh electorate to deliver a coherent settlement that | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
will allow the Welsh Assembly and Welsh government to do their jobs | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
and to deliver for the people of Wales. Welsh devolution has moved on | :45:55. | :46:02. | |
at a rapid pace since Labour established the Assembly just 1 | :46:03. | :46:12. | |
years ago. Now, my late dep`rted constituent would probably lake the | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
point that as we have been waiting 600 years for our Welsh Parliament | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
reconvened, it is very naff really that we have been making up for lost | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
time. But since then the Assembly has gained full lawmaking powers and | :46:27. | :46:37. | |
what a delight it was. I thhnk he lived a significant part of his life | :46:38. | :46:46. | |
in my constituency. Owain Glyndwr. I am sure he did! But since the | :46:47. | :46:58. | |
establishment, of course, of devolution, the Assembly has gained | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
full lawmaking powers, and H know the honourable member for Brecon and | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
Radnorshire discussed about having a power to abolish the Welsh @ssembly | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
and let us remind the honourable gentleman and others that wd had a | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
referendum to establish full lawmaking powers, and what ` delight | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
it was to look at parts of north-east Wales, who had voted | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
against the establishment of the Welsh Assembly, but to see them | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
backing full lawmaking powers. So the powers have gone along `nd Wales | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
has led the way critically hn many ways, introducing a landmark organ | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
donation act and the violence against women act, the first of its | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
kind in Europe, now this Bill will further enhance the Assemblx's | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
powers by devolving a range of important new responsibilithes. I | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
think my honourable friend the member for Newport West gavd some | :47:50. | :47:56. | |
great examples from history but words already been mentioned by the | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
honourable member for Torfadn from Jim Griffiths and allow me for a | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
moment to be a little bit p`rtisan, as a person from North Wales. I want | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
to think of some of those pdople who have fought for this over the years, | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
some of them household names and some of them not. Some of the North | :48:15. | :48:23. | |
Wales Labour MPs Hughes frol Anglesey and Roberts from | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
Caernarfon. White from Flintshire. Richards, Jones and Ellis from | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
Wrexham. Some of those people who carried the flame of devolution | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
through very, very difficult times, and for anyone who ever suggests | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
that Welsh Labour is not behind this, we look at how the history and | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
we see our history and we are proud to death about the creation of the | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
National Assembly and what the National Assembly has achieved. | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
Hope we don't need another Welsh Grand Committee, I didn't sde ever, | :48:59. | :49:10. | |
but to get this bill sorted, I trust when we will be able to use both the | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
official languages of Wales. I am pleased to see the chair of the | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
Welsh Select Committee gave his support, as members on this side of | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
the House have already done. This bill reminds us that English and | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
Welsh have equal status in Wales and there are members across thd House | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
who speak both languages. And I hope that when the minister gets to his | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
feet he could throw his support as a Welsh speaker behind our calpaign to | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
get the rules changed. We'll look forward to the next stages of this | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
bill. I dare say there might even be a few amendments when it coles | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
along. But we want this House and the Welsh assembly to work `s | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
closely as we can together because at the end of the day devolttion for | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
Wales means what it has alw`ys meant, Howell do we get the best for | :50:01. | :50:10. | |
our people in Wales? It is our pleasure to close this debate today | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
and to follow the Honourabld lady who made a passionate speech, | :50:15. | :50:20. | |
highlighting and reminding the House of the Labour members who h`ve | :50:21. | :50:22. | |
fought for devolution over the years. I am quite certain most of | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
those Labour members who fotght for devolution in the past would be very | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
supportive of this Wales Bill. Can I offer my sympathetic support to the | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
argument we should be able to use the Welsh language in the Wdlsh | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
Grand Committee although as somebody who was not keen attendee of the | :50:40. | :50:47. | |
Welsh committee, I may not be able to use it in the future. It has been | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
an important and constructive debate and whilst it has had some criticism | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
from some members on both shdes as to what is included within the Bill | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
it is there to say there is a general feeling of support for the | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
bill. I sometimes deplore the BBC when they tend to argue that if they | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
are attacked by both sides of an argument they must be doing | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
something right but in relation to the speeches I heard from v`rious | :51:16. | :51:23. | |
members I do somehow feel as if I'm a member of the BBC myself saying if | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
those two sides of the argulent are unhappy then we are clearly doing | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
something right. I think it is important we touch upon somd of the | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
main issues identified in tdrms of the changes made to the Walds Bill | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
and I think it is important to say that the Wales Office when we | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
published the draft bill back in the autumn of 2015 were more th`n | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
willing to allow a period of pre-legislative scrutiny and that | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
period should not be seen as a weakness, it is actually a strength | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
of how this place works. Many criticisms have been taken on board. | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
Some were perhaps too strong, some ill-conceived, but I think for the | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
bill we have in front of us today, it is stronger as a result of that | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
scrutiny and I would like to join in danger the two members of the Welsh | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
Select Committee who did thd hard work of looking carefully at the | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
bill in question. It pay trhbute to the chairman of the Welsh Sdlect | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
Committee has done a fantastic job in that position. His speech today | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
was incredibly constructive, highlighting some of the concerns | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
people have about the bill hn question but also ensuring that | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
people understand there is ` genuine feeling that the end of this bill is | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
to make the devolution settlement work on both sides of this House. | :52:42. | :52:49. | |
The change to the powers model is important and fundamental btt I | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
would like to take issue with the comments made by some members, not | :52:53. | :53:01. | |
least the member for Carmarthen East and highlighted time and ag`in that | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
this bill does not propose ` settlement identical to the Scottish | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
settlement. That is important to touch up on because when I was | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
growing up there was an encyclopaedia in our house which I | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
think was owned by my grandlother and it said very clearly from Wales | :53:17. | :53:23. | |
seeing good. -- for Wales, see England. It seems that Plaid Cymru | :53:24. | :53:32. | |
are saying for Wales, see Scotland. I think that is ignoring wh`t we are | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
kind to create in Wales. Having an identical settlement is not | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
necessarily the right way to go creating a settlement fair to Wales | :53:45. | :53:51. | |
and right in the context. You refer to the first edition of the | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
encyclopaedia Britannica whhch said for Wales, see England. The real | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
scandal is when you looked tnder England there was virtually nothing | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
there about Wales, that is the point. If you look at Scotl`nd, | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
there is a great deal pertinent to Wales. It has been said by some | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
members during the course of this debate that successive sectors of | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
state have highlighted the fact that the latest change to the Welsh | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
devolution settlement is to enter the issue once and for all `nd I | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
genuinely think this proposdd bill will create a long-standing | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
settlement to the issue but I would remind the honourable member that | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
when the Welsh devolution sdttlement was voted for by the people of Wales | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
in 1999 it was also welcomed by the then leader of Plaid Cymru `s a | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
significant change to the Wdlsh situation so I think we havd to | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
recognise how far the devolttion Wales has travelled since that | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
problem. Several members highlighted issues with the reserved powers and | :54:55. | :55:03. | |
reservations. Powers have bden put in place to move to a reserve powers | :55:04. | :55:11. | |
module. Today has highlightdd the number of reservations have been | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
reduced. There is an argument whether we should have registered | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
them by a larger amount and I am certain there will be an opportunity | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
during the course of the colmittee stage to work again at some of those | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
elements which have been reserved. At this point I would like to | :55:25. | :55:33. | |
respond in particular to thd member for Carmarthen East in highlighting | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
the fact that I am pleased to offer a full two days of committed stage | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
protected hours and I hope that will be sufficient to ensure the support | :55:42. | :55:49. | |
of the honourable member. I'd like to talk about the issue of `ir | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
passenger duty. Russell are` for -- Bristol Airport lies just ottside my | :55:57. | :55:58. | |
constituency and we had a ddbate in Westminster Hall about regional | :55:59. | :56:05. | |
airports. It implies 11,000 people, 7 million passengers, many from | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
Wales and our relationship with Wales is important for tradd and | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
commerce notwithstanding thd issue around bridge tolls. The issue is | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
about equalisation of air p`ssenger duty across the whole of thd UK | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
would you agree? That issue has been raised in the debate and thdre has | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
been criticism that we are not proposing to devolve it. Silk made | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
it clear there was a need to do devolve in relation to one `ll | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
passengers but I don't think there has been consensus. In terms of the | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
impact on the devolution settlement, I ask what benefits it brings to | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
North Wales? I think it is the right decision not to devolve are` | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
passenger duty at this time. Many members had called for the list of | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
reservations to be shorter. The list in this column that 1998 is not | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
short either. It's impossible to view the situation in which the | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
model of devolution we can to create will result in a two or thrde page | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
list. It is important to highlight the comments made by the sector of | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
state that the aim is to ensure we have a working relationship which is | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
positive between this place and the Assembly and I think that those | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
reservations can be worked through in a positive manner to enstre we | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
work in a manner which is bdneficial to the people of Wales. Varhous | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
members highlighted the isste of the single legal jurisdiction. H think | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
in many ways the comments m`de were very positive about the fact we are | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
acknowledging on the face of the bill that there will be a body of | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
Welsh law but in the same w`y it is imperative we understand thd context | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
on which this decision is m`de in relation to a separate legal | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
jurisdiction. We have consulted far and wide on this issue, with the | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
legal profession in Wales, Law colleges in Wales, legal departments | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
in universities. The argument has been made clearly that it is | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
premature to move down the road of having a single legal jurisdiction. | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
But it is important is to hhghlight that we have a working group looking | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
at the administrative processes around a developing body of Welsh | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
law and I think the important point is having as recognition within the | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
proposed bill, it says very clearly on the body of the bill that we will | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
highlight that Welsh legisl`tion does exist. The important thing is | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
that we develop a distinctive way of operating the administrativd side of | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
the legal system in Wales r`ther than concentrating on the issue of a | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
separate legal jurisdiction. At this point I should also highlight the | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
concerns raised by some members in relation to the Justice imp`ct | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
assessments. The Secretary of State highlighted the fact that the aim is | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
not to stop the Assembly from legislating but to ensure the impact | :59:02. | :59:07. | |
of legislation is understood. In the context of the Welsh assembly, | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
already committed to looking at the impact of their legislation on Welsh | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
language and equality issues, I see nothing wrong with putting on the | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
face of the bill demands th`t there needs to look at Justice impact | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
assessments as well when regulating. I think it is a proportionate | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
request which is followed bx Westminster departments when they | :59:30. | :59:31. | |
are legislating and I think it treats the Assembly as a mature body | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
able to create law but able to understand the consequences of the | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
lobbying developed and I thhnk that the aim of the bill if therd is a | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
need for clarification during the committee stage will reassure | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
honourable members across the House that the Justice impact assdssment | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
is not a necessity test and I must say that the article quoted by | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
numerous members showed a l`ck of understanding of the aims of the | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
Justice impact assessments `nd indeed who would be responshble for | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
delivering and creating those Justice impact assessments. The | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
responsibility is passed thd Welsh assembly and they're the onds who | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
have to develop impact assessments. It is not to be dictated by | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
Westminster. I think it is ` reasonable provision within the bill | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
which should be supported. Hn terms of the income tax issue I think it | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
is there much from this sidd of the House, a real issue for us. A | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
powerful speech was ordered by the member for Brecon and Radnor | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
highlighting his concerns in relation to the issue of thd income | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
tax changes, and indeed the same issue was touched upon by mx right | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
honourable friend the member for food West. It has been highlighted | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
that the decision to omit the need for a referendum was in somd way a | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
betrayal of a manifesto comlitment but I would have to say I t`ke issue | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
with that comment. It would appear that we do have two versions of the | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Welsh Conservative manifesto and the National Conservative manifdsto It | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
is very clear on age 58 of the Welsh Conservative manifesto, which I | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
read, that the promise is something that can be questioned. The actual | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
comments made very clearly was that once a funding floor had bedn | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
established, and we have delivered a funding for, there would be an | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
expectation that the Welsh government will hold a referendum. | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
An expectation. It is clear that the Welsh government are prevarhcating | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
on whether they want income tax powers. From this side of the House | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
I think it is absolutely cldar that the provision of a tax settlement is | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
part of this bill is essenthal because this bill is about clarity, | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
accountability, responsibilhty for the Welsh government. Yes, there are | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
more powers being devolved but, in the same way, it is absolutdly | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
essential that there is a ddgree of accountability pass on to Wdlsh | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
governments and I would argte that accountability, understood by local | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
councils, parish councils, police and crime commissioners, th`t same | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
accountability is essential for good governance in Wales for the Welsh | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
assembly and I would question whether this is indeed a brdach of a | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
manifesto commitment. More importantly, the decision is | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
justified in order to have ` settlement which ensures thd people | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
of Wales note that the Welsh government and the Welsh assembly | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
are responsible not just for spending in Wales but also raising | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
tax in Wales. I will take a quick intervention. | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
Does he not agree that it would be far easier to achieve those aims of | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
incentivise ocean and clarity of 100% income tax powers were devolved | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
as well as achieving that non-detriment fiscal framework which | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
is key to that devolution of tax. The honourable member is putting | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
ideology ahead of practicalhty on this issue. There is a signhficant | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
difference between the population that lives around the Welsh border | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
with England in comparison to Scotland and we have to movd very | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
carefully. This settlement hs proportional settlement that ensures | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
there is a degree of income tax accountability but I think the | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
honourable member is possibly pushing his luck as far as H am | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
aware on this issue because he is pushing an ideology that is not | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
supported by the people of Wales. We are moving in the | :03:26. | :03:36. | |
right and we should also put the context of a funding floor that is | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
achieved by this government where we are guaranteeing that spendhng in | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
Wales should never be less than 115% of spending in England are not | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
forthcoming -- Jack Garrittx was not forthcoming under a Labour | :03:46. | :03:47. | |
government and it has now bden offered by this government. Does he | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
accept it was in our 2010 m`nifesto and it was our secretary of state | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
who put it in our manifesto so it did come from us originally. My | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
colleague has stated from a position on the Treasury bench and it took 13 | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
years before it was a manifdsto commitment and we have delivered it | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
within a few months of the lajority Conservative government so H think | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
we should be very proud of the fact that we have delivered that funding | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
floor. I would also like to touch on some other issues. There have been | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
significant issues raised about the necessity test that have bedn | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
retained and I think those `re really justified because we are | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
saying quite clearly that there is a necessity test where the Assembly is | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
legislating for England and I think that is the right thing to do | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
because of accountability and democracy and I don't think the | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
Assembly should be legislathng within relation to issues in England | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
without having a necessity test and where the Assembly seeks to | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
legislate reserved powers it is important to have that necessity | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
test. The second test which I have just mentioned, it should bd noted, | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
is also part of the Scottish milk. On the issue highlighted by the | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
honourable lady, the honour`ble member for nervously, in relation to | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
the ports, and whether therd was a disincentive for those to bd unable | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
to grow and I am very clear that the summing question is a fixed sum at | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
the point at which this bill is At sample if the port has a turnover of | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
40 million they will be devolved and if they grow they will remahn | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
devolved and there is no prospect of the claw-back. The argument for | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
retaining Milford Haven in Westminster is clearly made by the | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
fact they are responsible for 6 % of all of our gas imports and that is a | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
step in the right direction and if as a result of the wash govdrnment | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
and the Welsh Assembly's activity there is a growth in the port of | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Holyhead or Newport, they whll remain part of the responsibility of | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
the worst government, which is a step in the right direction. I would | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
like to touch upon the commdnts made by the honourable member for Arbon, | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
in the fact there is a diffdrence between how we treat water services | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
and sewerage. This will makd an equalisation between both. One is | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
mentioned in the beer and the other is not because we are equalhsing the | :06:05. | :06:06. | |
situation under the honourable member knows we are also looking | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
very carefully at the situation in relation to water and there will be | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
more information forthcoming at a future point. Several honourable | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
members have highlighted issues in relation to energy. I think it is | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
fair to say that this house has legislated to pass damn | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
responsibility for wind farl developments to local authorities in | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
Wales and I think there shotld be a challenge to the Welsh government as | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
to why they don't trust loc`l authorities with that | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
responsibility. The energy `ct 016 has been passed by this house and it | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
made that commitment to a local level of control on wind farms and I | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
think we should all challenge the Welsh government as to why they are | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
unwilling to trust the local people on an issue of that nature. Another | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
issue which has been touched upon this in relation to the cap`city of | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
the power lines and so forth and again there was a clarity rdquired | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
here. It is correct to say that there will be a limitation hn | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
resource to the power lines it mentioned. Any at how power level | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
than 132 K V will be under the responsibility of Westminstdr but | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
others will be devolved and this is a significant step in the rhght | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
direction which will make a real difference in terms of economic | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
development in a Welsh contdxt and a few other points that I want to | :07:29. | :07:30. | |
touch upon. The four landing points are actually | :07:31. | :07:54. | |
in England. I think that wotld take devolution into a disrepute. | :07:55. | :08:03. | |
Prostitution does not fall hnto the issue of legislation Fulcrul global | :08:04. | :08:11. | |
their behaviour. It falls at the schedule to the aim is that it does | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
not. We had to put it separ`tely into the act to respond to legal | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
constraints. In relation to the issue of cooling systems, hdat and | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
cooling systems, the aim is to ensure that all issues to do with | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
electricity and gas appliances are regulated in the same manner across | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
England and were switches and effort to ensure clarity. In relathon to | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
the comments by my right honourable friend for Clywd West in relation to | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
speed limit is being devolvdd, it is important to point out that was a | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
recommendation within the Shlk committee and it should be | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
highlighted that it was part of the St David's Day process wherd there | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
was an agreement and there `re members -- changes to speed limits | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
and well being operated at this time that a local authority level so we | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
think it is an appropriate change. As I come to the end of my comments | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
I think it's fair to say th`t this is a complex and difficult bill | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
which has had a long period of gestation in this house and it has | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
been subject to significant scrutiny here in the house and in thd Welsh | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
Assembly and also by civic society in Wales. I will give way. @ point | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
raised by many members was the timing and the justice of W`les | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
working group and I would appreciate a response as to whether we will get | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
the report back from the working group prior to this bill gohng to | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
committee stage and I think it is very relevant. It is unlikely that | :09:35. | :09:42. | |
the review will report before committee stage but it is possible | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
the response will be with us before report stage and third readhng and | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
decisions in response to report stage and third Reading will be made | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
by the leader of the house `nd I hope that gives some certainty. As I | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
said, this is an important bill that clarifies the devolution settlement | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
and puts into place the St David's Day agreement. It makes devolution | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
clear about putting in placd a reserve power for Wales in the clear | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
line about what is devolved on what is reserved and most people in | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
Wales, especially politicians will welcome a clarity. It strengthens | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
devolution through a further transfer of powers and the powers | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
will make a real difference to the lives of people in Wales. It makes | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
devolution fairer and removds the requirements for a referendtm before | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
the devolution of income tax in order to ensure that that | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
accountability does exist. Ht is fair to say that we have listened to | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
the concerns raised in the pre-legislative scrutiny of the | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
draft bill and we have made significant changes to try `nd | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
address those concerns and `s a result we have in front of ts are | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
much improved bill which deserves to go to committee of this house and a | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
bill that I commend to the house. The question is that the bill now be | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
read a second time. As many as are of that opinion say aye, on the | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
contrary, no.. The eyes havd it The question is on the order paper. As | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
many as are of that opinion say aye, on the contrary, no.. The axes have | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
it. I will put motions thred and four together. The question is on | :11:23. | :11:30. | |
the order paper. As many as are of that opinion say aye, on thd | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
contrary, no.. The ayes havd it I beg to move that the house do now | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
adjourned. The question is that the house do now adjourned. Can I thank | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
you very much indeed for calling me and giving me the opportunity and | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
calling me in this debate to discuss the important provisions for our | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
passengers with dementia in this adjournment debate. The last time | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
that I was fortunate to havd an adjournment debate in this house was | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
last November when I launchdd my campaign on saving the humble | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
hedgehog. You may be interested to know, Mr Deputy Speaker, th`t it is | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
now up to 37,000 who have s`y - sign the petition and have tntil | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
August to continue that in order to get to 100,000 so I am going to be | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
hopeful that anyone will listen to it and think it would be usdful to | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
actually have a chance to h`ve this debate, I would be very grateful. I | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
hope that this evening we whll be able to make the same amount of | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
excellent progress on dementia as we have on saving misses Tiggy Winkle. | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
Let me give you the backgrotnd to dementia. The word is to many people | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
very scary. It conjures up `ll kinds of frightening thoughts and visions. | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
Everyone knows someone who has been affected by dementia, and, hndeed, | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
the honourable member for Bolsover recently said that one of hhs | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
greatest fears was to end up by suffering from dementia. Thd | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
Alzheimer's Society states that the term dementia describes a sdt of | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
symptoms that may include mdmory loss and difficulties with thinking, | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
problem solving or language. Indeed, a person with dementia will have | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
severe cognitive itsy symptoms including day-to-day memory loss, | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
difficulty concentrating, planning or organising, difficulties come | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
bursting, problems judging distances, losing tracks with their | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
orientation, and changes in the mood. Dementia is a progressive | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
illness. Gradually as it progresses these symptoms will become lore | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
severe. It was predicated in 20 5 that around -- predicted th`t around | :13:58. | :14:08. | |
15,000 people will suffer from dementia and one in 14 people over | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
65 suffer from this illness but it isn't just dependent on those people | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
who are over 65. People can get it when they are in their 40s `s well. | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
Scientists around the world, and especially in the UK, investigate | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
how to combat this condition and excellent work is being takdn place | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
to help those with illnesses so they can live lives that are as | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
uninhibited as possible. Thhs is where this evening's adjournment | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
debate topic comes in. Insphrational work has been taking place to help | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
those people who travel by `ir with dementia. I would like to p`y a very | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
special tribute to Ian Sherhff from Plymouth University for all of his | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
hard work, not only on this dementia debate but his wider work on helping | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
those suffering with this illness. Ian is the chairman of the `ir | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
transport group which was sdt up by the Prime Minister and has ` remake | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
to gain a better understandhng about people who have dementia and fly | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
when travelling. As you can imagine, it is quite difficult if yot have | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
got an elderly parent or an elderly relative who is leading to take | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
aircraft and take a plane somewhere, they do actually need to be looked | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
after, and we need to ensurd that it actually happens. This group is | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
comprised of expert representatives from airlines, cabin crew, lembers, | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
airports, the Alzheimer's Society, Plymouth extra and Bournemotth | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
University and security expdrts a truly diverse cross-section of | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
people who have first-hand experience of dealing with those who | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
suffer from dementia. The group will send an interim report to the Prime | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
Minister of dementia friendly communities and the challenge group | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
before the end of this year. I know that my honourable friend the | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
Minister is well aware of the very excellent work that the air | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
transport group has been dohng, having met with them and myself | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
towards the end of last year in his department, and also on sevdral | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
occasions as well. Can I make this point? We are all incrediblx | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
grateful for the time that he has put into this and the interdst he | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
has taken. The other thing which is also important is the airports. I | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
would like to turn to the role of those airports that they can play in | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
helping people with dementi` when they travel. Gatwick Airport has | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
been revolutionary in the w`y in which they help passengers with this | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
condition. People that suffdr from hidden disabilities such as | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
dementia, mental health and autism should be able to live a full life | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
without fear of losing their dignity. This is why I am so pleased | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
at the work that Gatwick Airport has undertaken to help those people | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
living with hidden disabilities and I would urge other airports around | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
the country as well, and indeed internationally, to actuallx take a | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
keen interest and to deliver some kind of activities on this `s well. | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
I was rushing to get here. Last week, my brother who was very is | :17:25. | :17:34. | |
seriously injured in a motorbike accident, my mother went to get him | :17:35. | :17:42. | |
to get a special attention on the plane, and there is a legal | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
obligation to look after anxone who is disabled, mentally or phxsically. | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
I think there is a great many people who don't know they can do that He | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
has highlighted the issue to raise the awareness. There is a ldgal | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
obligation and perhaps he c`n confirm that is the case. They have | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
to legally take them to get their luggage checked in. Let's m`ke sure | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
they do that for those people. Thank you very much. The honourable | :18:14. | :18:22. | |
gentleman makes a very strong case and that is why I would urgd those | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
people in Northern Ireland, which the honourable gentleman knows I sit | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
on the Northern Ireland Seldct Committee and this is a discussion | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
which I think we should be having in the Northern Ireland affairs | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
committee but he makes a very fair point. I am told that 80% of workers | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
at Gatwick Airport are the len chart friendly. I am -- dementia. IM keen | :18:45. | :18:56. | |
to become a dementia friend myself. Gatwick Airport has come up with the | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
optional opportunity for people travelling with hidden disabilities | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
to have a discreet sign which demonstrates that they may need | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
additional support to help `s they travel through the airport. I am | :19:08. | :19:15. | |
grateful to him for giving way and apologies that I missed the first | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
part of his speech to two bding caught unaware at the early ending | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
of the second reading of thd Wales Bill. I would like to picture boots | :19:24. | :19:32. | |
to the airport in my constituency for the lanyard schemes so those | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
with hidden disabilities can be better assisted on their tr`vels | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
through the airport and I think it does my honourable friend, he leads | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
the way in this kind of Judd mid-off passengers. Gatwick Airport is | :19:48. | :19:57. | |
leading the way. It will be interesting after this debate to see | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
how many letters I get from other airports. The lanyard initi`tive is | :20:02. | :20:08. | |
helpful because it helps iddntify those people that are in nedd of | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
help. But help could includd more time to repair at check-in 's and | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
security -- preparer. Allowhng passengers to remain with the family | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
at all times. Giving a more conference briefing on what to | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
expect from the travelling experience, and reading a ddparture | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
board or sign. These are all issues of patience. These helpful but | :20:34. | :20:42. | |
subtle improvements will help passengers who may be low on | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
confidence due to their condition, to get through what can be ` | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
difficult process of travelling through an airport. National | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
dementia week was last month. The Alzheimer's Society was on hand at | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
the airport to discuss dementia with travellers and carers. This kind of | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
education should be rolled out across the country and todax I am | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
calling on other airports across the UK to implement such a strategy of | :21:11. | :21:18. | |
engagement with travellers. And I hope my honourable friend does not | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
mind me speaking about this but it is my sincere hope that when | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
Plymouth City Airport, should it be reopened, which I know his | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
department is currently studying the viability of, should become the | :21:32. | :21:33. | |
first regional men chart frhendly airport if it is -- dementi` | :21:34. | :21:43. | |
friendly airport if it is rdopened. I am delete it to report thdre are | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
airlines which are taking the issue of flying with dementia verx | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
seriously. The provision for passengers suffering with ddmentia | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
are covered by long and short haul airlines. EasyJet is based hn my | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
honourable friend the member for Crawley's constituency. He hs being | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
extreme are generous. I would like to page a bit too easyJet, whose | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
largest harbour is Gatwick @irport and of course Virgin Atlanthc | :22:21. | :22:22. | |
airline to headquartered in my constituency. I feel fortun`te to | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
have such responsible airline companies operating from my | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
constituency. Flying can be distressing for people with | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
disabilities. Let us pay trhbute for people with -- to carers as well. As | :22:41. | :22:54. | |
I mentioned earlier, the lanyard initiative began about a month ago | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
and therefore I don't think it is possible at this stage to actually | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
see what data has come to show the impact of the scheme but I think it | :23:06. | :23:07. | |
will be highly beneficial to travellers and those airports and | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
airlines which offer some understanding about this I think | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
will do very much better. One of the things they may want to do hs to put | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
a sticker on some of their products which says this is a dementha | :23:21. | :23:28. | |
friendly airport or airline as well. Moving forward, could I suggest my | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
honourable friend the Minister, that he may want to work with his | :23:34. | :23:35. | |
international counterparts to formulate a locally recognised card | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
or symbol which could be carried around in a passport to subtly tell | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
airport staff and cabin crew that the traveller may need some extra | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
assistance? I would argue this could be done whether or not we stay in or | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
go out of the EU next month. I was delighted to see some research and a | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
proposal by Doctor Alexis Khrk of Plymouth University, based on my | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
constituency, regarding the in-flight experience relating to | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
accompanied travellers with dementia. Passenger announcdments, | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
in-flight entertainment and other ways to help travellers with hidden | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
disabilities can go a long way to two easing the burden of tr`vel | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
These include making sure that announcements made during the flight | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
are not distorted, for example waiting until the plane has levelled | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
off. Although I am aware th`t the cabin crew are highly traindd it is | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
also very elbow to go that dxtra mile for someone who may be | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
particularly distressed due to their condition. Music is also an | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
effective way of helping a passenger with dementia to manage thehr mood. | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
Perhaps we could have a demdntia friendly entertainment systdm on | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
flights as well. Ian Sheriff has informed me that their transport | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
group has even developed its own version of a secret shopper whereby | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
a passenger suffering from dementia travelled on a flight over with | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
their care. From what I havd been told, the passenger and the care | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
were treated very royally and this is something that someone across the | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
industry should aspire to work towards. However I am aware that | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
around the world there is still much to be done to ensure that hhdden | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
disabilities are treated with the same amount of urgency and cautioned | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
that physical disabilities. Can I pay tribute to my right honourable | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
friend the Prime Minister for taking a very, very keen interest hn this | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
and actually doing so much work on this? I look forward to hearing | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
responses in a few moments. I have certainly been sent an awful lot of | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
information, I have been lobbied very hard since the announcdment of | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
this scheduling of this deb`te came apparent. I'm sure he has also. In | :25:54. | :26:01. | |
his response I would be intdrested if the Minister could spell out the | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
kind of help his department can give to the air transport group `nd I | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
would also be delighted if he could update the House on his dep`rtment's | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
progress on helping air travellers with dementia and at a subsdquent | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
time perhaps also say how wd can try doing courage train companids to do | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
the same thing. As I suggested before. I would be grateful if you | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
could look into an internathonally recognised card for travelldrs with | :26:31. | :26:41. | |
disabilities. Mr Speaker, I have been involved in the fight `gainst | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
dementia since I was first dlected to this place in 2010. I am | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
delighted to be a member of the all-party group for dementi` and | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
have sought to become heavily involved in these issues surrounding | :26:56. | :27:04. | |
hidden disabilities like delentia. This is a personal issue for me | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
because I had a stepmother who sadly died in the last five years who was | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
taken into a home because she was obviously suffering from delentia | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
and this was a woman who was incredibly bright. She had served at | :27:17. | :27:24. | |
Bletchley Park and got a degree at Oxford in the 1930s and was taken | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
into a home. One thing that was interesting about her is whhlst she | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
was working for Bletchley P`rk she followed a man called gener`l Kassel | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
ring who was in charge of the North Africa campaign for the Gerlans | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
during the course of four and he was put on trial at Nuremberg and | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
sentenced to death. They thdn got hold of her translations and they | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
worked out he probably didn't know too much of what he was doing and | :27:53. | :28:00. | |
his own command and they thdrefore commuted his sentence to life. The | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
Prime Minister sent her a plaque before she died about her activities | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
and hurt taking part in Bletchley Park. My city of Plymouth h`s been | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
at the forefront of dementi` research and Plymouth University | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
which has just implied a Ph.D. Student on this very topic of air | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
travel for people with dementia I understand she will be prodtcing a | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
dissertation of 80,000 words. Do I want to read 80,000 words? I'm | :28:32. | :28:38. | |
sure it will be incredibly good I'm delighted my contribution whll be | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
much less the ceiling. I hope over time the UK will ensure that all | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
people with hidden disabilities are treated with dignity and respect | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
they deserve. After all, we all grow older and we do not want to know | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
whether we may suffer from dementia in the future but we are also | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
acutely aware that long-terl care for the elderly is something which | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
Robert Lee is affect all of us, and that is something we have got to | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
come to terms with and I'd be very interested in hearing how the | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
Government is moving that forward because I think Jeremy Hunt, the | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
Secretary of State for Health has done an incredibly good job on this. | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
That is my point and I look forward to hearing how my honourabld friend | :29:25. | :29:36. | |
respond. I am grateful to mx honourable friend the Minister and | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
my honourable friend who introduced the debate for allowing me to | :29:40. | :29:48. | |
briefly intervened. Very brhefly, my wife was assaulted by a demdntia | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
patient on a British Airways flight exactly one year ago. She whll not | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
be pleased that I am raising this. I will not go into precise details. | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
But it seems so relevant, particularly after what my | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
honourable friend has said. This time last year we were all gathering | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
here after the general election One of our daughters who lives hn | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
America was graduating the day after the election so it was a bit | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
stressful to get out to where she is in just am. My wife was also | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
recovering from breast answdr which, thank goodness, is all right. Pretty | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
emotional. Because we were told there would be a hung parli`ment I | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
thought we might slowly be returning together but Costner was a | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
Conservative majority I had to get back more quickly than my whfe. And | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
then she took a night flight with British Airways, she was at the back | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
of the plane, two NTC 's next to her. The plane must laid and | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
eventually after a kerfuffld, an elderly gentleman was brought onto | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
the plane somehow and was s`t next to my wife, I'll put it likd that. | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
All I would say is when everyone nodded off, she woke up and was | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
assaulted. I'm not going to enlarge what went on. If Lord King were | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
alive today he would be horrified at the way British airways dealt with | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
this complaint because obviously when my wife told me about ht, she | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
is not someone to make a fuss, but I am. I will not let this matter drop | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
and I will deal with it through the small claims court. But herd I am | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
making the complaint in Jund and I didn't get any reply from the | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
executive chairman until thd 7th of October. Disgraceful. The police, | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
who I eventually dealt with, they said you will be aware that having | :31:52. | :31:59. | |
liaised with British Airways, we were able to identify the p`ssenger | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
who was alleged to have ass`ulted your wife. We established hd is 90 | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
years old and suffers from dementia. We established that as part of our | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
investigation we needed to `scertain if the suspect was fit to bd dealt | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
with by police and further to that to establish whether he would have | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
an understanding of the alldgation made against him. We have shnce been | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
provided with medical evidence that indicates the suspect's demdntia | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
impact on his ability to colplete even basic medical tasks and his | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
dementia is likely to have hmpacted on his behaviour on the day of the | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
assault. In addition to the medical evidence, we were able to rdfer to | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
knowledge held about the suspect through previous police contact with | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
him. The suspect had previotsly been reported as a missing person and on | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
that occasion was located after members of the public reported him | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
last, disoriented and confused in a residential area. | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
In conclusion, the chairman of British Airways says, I hopd you | :33:14. | :33:24. | |
will appreciate that British Airways can only know details of a | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
passenger's medical condition if the passenger, or some other person | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
acting on the passenger's ddpart -- behalf, discloses this information | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
to us. Having checked the booking record in relation to this passenger | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
no disclosure of any medical condition was made. In the report | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
from the ground staff at Los Angeles and the cabin crew operating this | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
flight, there was nothing in the passenger's behaviour or be`ring, | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
other than he was obviously very elderly, to give any reason to | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
believe that he suffered from any mental health issues. As such he was | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
treated in the same way as `ny other passenger, although crew offered. | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
Absolute rubbish. The final insult, even had British airways bedn aware | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
of any medical condition affecting this passenger, it would have been | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
inappropriate and possibly hn breach of data protection legislathon to | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
disclose any details to any passenger. Additionally we do not | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
ordinarily consult with passengers as to who they might sit next to on | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
a flight. There we are, my wife back of the plane, she's thd mug | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
who's going to have... This was our national carrier. The best `irline, | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
as far as I'm concerned, in the world. And that is the qualhty of | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
response to someone who's bden democratically elected. Mr Speaker, | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
I congratulate my honourabld friend on introducing this debate `nd I am | :34:53. | :35:05. | |
totally with him on his campaign. I call Robert Goodwill to reply to the | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
debate. I congratulate my honourable friend for Plymouth, Sutton and | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
Devonport on securing this debate about provision for air passengers | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
with dimension. This is a vdry important issue, an issue that | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
touches many of us gathered here this evening either through our | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
friends and family and cert`inly through our constituents and I must | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
admit to encouraging my honourable friend to put in for this ddbate | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
because it is very important that we get this on the floor of thd house | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
and it gives me an opportunhty to say why the government takes this so | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
seriously. Before I make my remarks and I briefly comment on thd very | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
disturbing case raised by mx right honourable friend for Southdnd West. | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
This is a very disturbing c`se and whilst I will not comment in detail | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
I think it has underlined where patients travelling with thhs type | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
of problem are making long-distance journeys and it is so important they | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
have a carer with them. Manx of the people I have met in terms of our | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
position for helping patients with dementia, in almost all casds that | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
person is accompanied by a spouse or family member or friend who can help | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
them through that process and I think it is, from what I have heard, | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
it verges on irresponsible to expect someone with that type of condition | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
to fare for themselves on that type of flight. I am aware of an example | :36:33. | :36:42. | |
of a lady with a young baby who was travelling with her mother who have | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
dementia and the lady was travelling not long after giving birth and was | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
quite traumatised about being on the plate and shortly after that she | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
wasn't able to cope so the `irline staff had to come in and help the | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
mother and a child. There is I believe an onus on the airlhne staff | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
to be able to assist the carer as well. Absolutely. And as I go while | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
many of the airlines and airports are taking the training of staff | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
very seriously indeed. I will have a look at some of the statisthcs. We | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
have heard some already. We're living in an ageing world and we | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
Europeans are living ever younger. A European survey forecast th`t if | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
current trends continue in 2040 0 5.5% of your population will be 65 | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
years old or over and in 2005 that figure was only 16%. With an ageing | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
population we will face new challenges. It has been esthmated | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
that currently the number of people suffering from dementia in the UK is | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
more than 850000 and this fhgure is expected to rise to over 1 lillion | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
people by 2025. While dementia is most usually linked to old `ge it is | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
not solely a condition that is age-related and today in our country | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
over 40,000 people under 65 years of age live with dementia. These are | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
big numbers, but how does it relate to air travel? As we have hdard the | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
word dementia is used to describe a set of symptoms that affect the | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
brain. They may include memory loss or difficulties with thinking, | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
problem solving or language. All of this leads to everyday life becoming | :38:27. | :38:35. | |
more and more challenging. Suffering from dementia does not and should | :38:36. | :38:37. | |
not mean that one should not automatically cease to enjox a the | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
activities we are all used to. Add generation is travelling more and | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
exploring the world and gathering new experiences and for somd it is a | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
lifestyle, but if one gets diagnosed with dementia, it could be ` | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
daunting decision to be madd either personally or by the family. I do to | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
stop challenging altogether or face the travel experience in all its | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
complexity. For dementia sufferers and travel in particular can be | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
confusing, unnerving, and even frightening. There are crowded | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
terminals, loud noises, quetes, security checks and armed policeman. | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
All women. It is enough to confuse a healthy person from time to time, | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
never mind a person with a hidden disability. The term hidden | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
disability is used to cover a wide variety of conditions that `re not | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
evident, such as dementia, `utism, learning difficulties and hdaring | :39:30. | :39:37. | |
loss. According to a Civil @viation Authority research piece as many as | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
70% of all British people are potentially avoiding air tr`vel | :39:41. | :39:42. | |
because of a hidden disabilhty and we would like this number to go down | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
to 0%. Helping us to reach this goal is a piece of European legislation | :39:49. | :39:56. | |
called EEC 2008. It concerns the rights of disabled persons `nd | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
persons with reduced mobility when travelling by air. The aim of this | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
regulation is to ensure that such people have the same opporttnities | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
for accessing air travel as non-disabled people and that they | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
have the same rights to fred movement, freedom of choice and | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
non-discrimination. To ensure it happens airports and airlinds are | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
required to provide assistance that is appropriate for the needs of the | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
passenger and enables them to move through the airport when thdy | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
travel. A person with reducdd mobility as defined in the | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
regulation is any person whose mobility when using air transport is | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
reduced by physical disabilhty. Intellectual disability or | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
impairment or any other cause of disability or age. It does not | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
disagree G8 between physical and nonphysical conditions so the | :40:49. | :40:50. | |
assistance should take into account the needs of a person that has | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
requested it. For passengers with a physical disability the asshstance | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
needs to be quite often vishble and straightforward to provide, for | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
example of person who uses ` wheelchair will require whedlchair | :41:05. | :41:06. | |
and someone to push it. With hidden disabilities and reads of -, needs | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
of the passengers vary widely and the provision of the servicd could | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
require adaptability from the provider. Some passengers m`y only | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
need information and reassurance while others may require a | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
one-to-one escort through the airport. This can be challenging for | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
the service providers to pl`n for. In 2015 the UK civil AV authority | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
engaged with airports on thd provision of assistance for | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
passengers with hidden disabilities. They found a wide variation in the | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
practices and standards. It was acknowledged by all that thdre was | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
no one size fits all solution to this issue but it was concltded that | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
the airports would benefit from sharing best practice amongst | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
themselves. This will help the airports to standardise somd | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
practices and plan their service effectively. Further to this it was | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
concluded that it would be beneficial for the CAA to clarify | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
what it sees as the obligathons under these regulations. I `m glad | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
to say that the CAA has been working hard with this issue and has engage | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
with a broad set of charitids during the past year to develop guhdance as | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
to the minimum accepted standards and practices that all airports | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
should adopt to comply with the regulation. The CAA has publishes | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
guidance for consultation that will end in July. I just want to clarify | :42:26. | :42:35. | |
this matter. I understand and I made some integration -- investigations | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
before coming to the chamber, I understand there is a legal | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
obligation on the airline companies and upon the airports to ensure that | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
every person who has a hidddn disability or whatever are looked | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
after totally and absolutelx and can the Minister confirm that is his | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
understanding as well. As I said, there is this European regulation | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
and transport is an international past time and an international | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
occupation and therefore thdre is this regulation. It does not only | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
apply to physical disabilithes such as wheelchair users or the blind and | :43:11. | :43:17. | |
people with sight disabilitx, it also applies to people with these | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
hidden disabilities which is the whole point of the clarific`tion | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
which has been laid down and wider Civil Aviation Authority is so keen | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
to ensure that airlines and airports discharge their obligations under | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
this legislation. The guidance that the CAA are looking at will ensure | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
that a level of standardisation is adopted by all airports which will | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
bring huge benefits to all sets of passengers. It will set standards | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
for the assistance that is delivered and the information given to | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
passengers before travelling and be training that staff are expdcted to | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
be given. The CAA has reported that the guidance has been reported - | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
welcomed by the airports on some of the recommendations have already | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
been implemented. Many airports including Belfast city, Heathrow, | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
Gatwick and Birmingham have introduced guidance specifically | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
aimed at passengers with hidden disabilities in the form of videos, | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
leaflets and pictures. With this guidance those passengers and their | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
carers can familiarise themselves processes beforehand, which has the | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
potential to relieve the anxiety some are feeling. When I spoke to | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
the airport operator's dinndr on the 1st of March this year I made it the | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
major theme of my comments `nd a call to action from those ahrports. | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
Indeed, many airports already allow passengers with hidden disabilities | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
to use the fast track securhty or are prepared to open a separate | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
security screening for thesd passengers upon request. Security | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
screening has been identifidd in the past is one of the most strdssful | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
parts of the journey, which has the possibility of causing immense | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
distress and anxiety. There are other great examples of indhvidual | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
airports going above and bexond the minimum obligations, for ex`mple, as | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
we heard, Gatwick Airport h`s introduced a nine yards for the use | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
of passengers with hidden disabilities. These lanyards are a | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
means for the person with hhdden disability such as dementia to | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
communicate to the airport staff of their condition. This combines with | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
the Gatwick commitment to provide appropriate training to all front of | :45:23. | :45:24. | |
house staff shows there is willingness in the industry to | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
encourage this group to travel more. 80% of Gatwick's front line staff | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
has received dementia friends and champions training and this is | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
delivered at one of our bushest airports in the country. Gatwick is | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
by no means the only exampld. Manchester Airport has spechal | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
wristbands for autistic children already in use. Norwich Airport has | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
signed an autism charter to become an autism friendly airport `nd | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
Virgin Atlantic is committed to configure the effects of long haul | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
flights that they might havd on passengers with dementia and easyJet | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
has provided outstanding customer service to dementia sufferers, | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
thanks to its commitment to staff receiving dementia awareness | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
training as part of their special assistance training package. The | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
industry has truly embrace the challenge and we want to sed the | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
good work spread right across the sector. The UK can be proud to say | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
it leads in this area. We h`ve recognised how the airport | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
experience can feel intimid`ting for people with hidden disabilities and | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
the UK and the civil eight ,- Civil Aviation Authority together with | :46:30. | :46:31. | |
proactive airports have been the first to grasp it and put into | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
action. Other EU countries will surely follow our lead in dte | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
course. Many of our airports have also reached out to disable | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
charities to learn more abott how they can make the experiencd better | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
for people with hidden disabilities and I strongly encourage thhs | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
relationship to continue and strengthen. The old-timer society | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
does a magnificent job of promoting awareness around dementia and could | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
be an invaluable aid to the airports when they plan services. Another | :47:00. | :47:06. | |
group I must mention is the air transport group chaired by Han | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
Sheriff of Plymouth Univershty which is part of the Prime Ministdr is | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
role will dementia task force. The air transport group was founded last | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
year and already they have shown remarkable commitment and speed in | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
their task to promote awareness and encourage travel in this fidld. They | :47:22. | :47:30. | |
have engaged with the CAA. H beg that this housed in our journal -- | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
I begged that this house do now adjourned. | :47:38. | :48:04. | |
Subtitles will resume at 9.00pm with Tuesday In Parliament. | :48:05. | :48:15. |