15/09/2016 House of Commons


15/09/2016

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dismayed to hear about that case. Questions on October 18 may provide

:00:00.:00:00.

the opportunity he is seeking. Personal statement, Mr Justin

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Tomlinson. With your permission, I would like to make a personal

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statement. In response to the report published by the privilege committee

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today and the report published by the Parliamentary Commissioner for

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standards, I wanted to dig the opportunity to make a full and

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unreserved apology to you and the House. In 2013, I breached the rules

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of conduct by sharing a draft report by the committee of Public accounts

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regarding the regulation of consumer credit and investigation by the

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Parliamentary commission of standards was initiated in 2015

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following a complaint made by wonder. I accept the findings of the

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published today and the reports submitted by the commission of

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standards. I accept that my actions in sharing the report constitute an

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interference in the work and committee, and for this I am truly

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sorry. This was never my intention. These actions came as a result of my

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own naivete, driven by a desire to strengthen regulations on payday

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lenders and protect vulnerable consumers. The commission of the

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standards confirmed this is my motivation based on evidence I have

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worked on Prost party campaigns to protect consumers, and I had long

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argued that tighter regulation of the page lending industry. I welcome

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the report that my actions weren't motivated by financial gain, and I

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did not act in the way I did for financial gain, nor with the

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intention of reflecting the views of the company concerned. I appreciate

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acknowledgement that shall newspaper story following the investigation

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was unsubstantiated. I have accepted full responsibility since the very

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beginning of this process and acknowledged in the report I

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provided and unreserved acceptance of the findings of the Commissioner

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and have worked fully throughout three different enquiries. I would

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like to add both my thanks to the privileges committee, the clerk of

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the committee and the Commissioner the standard lead the diligent work

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in this process. Mr Speaker, I reiterate my apology today and

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ungrateful the House has allowed me to make this apology at the earliest

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opportunity. I thank the honourable gentleman for what he said under way

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in which he said it. The matter rests there. That is the of it.

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Statement, the Secretary of State for culture, media and sport, Karen

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Bradley. With permission, I would like to make a statement. Today I am

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laying before Parliament a draft of the Royal Charter for the

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continuance of the BBC. Together with the company and draft framework

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agreement between the government and the BBC. The latter sets up detail

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behind the charter, including how the BBC will operate in the new

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Charter period. These draft is set out the policies contained in the

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White Paper for the BBC of the future, a broadcaster of

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distinction, published in May. This white Paper was a culmination of one

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of the largest public consultations ever. More than 190,000 members of

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the public, as well as industry stakeholders and experts, gave their

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views on how the government could enable the BBC to continue to

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deliver world-class content and services over the next 11 years. The

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consultation served as a reminder that the BBC matters deeply to this

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country. As it does to people right across the world. Far from

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diminishing the BBC, our changes strengthen it. I am very grateful to

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my predecessor, the right honourable member for Maldon, for all his

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brilliant work on the BBC. My department has worked very closely

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with both the BBC and off,, who are taken on the job of being the BBC's

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first independent regulator to develop and agree these draft

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documents. Mr Speaker, I am a huge fan of the BBC. At its best, it is

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peerless. Our aim is to ensure that a strong, distinctive, independent

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BBC will continue to thrive for years to come. And also to improve

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the BBC where we can. And can I extend my personal thanks to both

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Tony Hall and Rowan Fairhead and their teams for their commitment to

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making this work? The new Charter agreement will enable a number of

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improvements, Mr Speaker. They enhance the distinctiveness of BBC

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content and the BBC's mission and public purposes have been reformed

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to reflect this requirement. The governance and regulation of the BBC

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will also be reformed. The new BBC board will be responsible for

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governing the BBC and off, will take under regulation the BBC. The

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charter and agreement sets out functions and obligations that the

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BBC and Ofcom must follow to deliver this. The charter recognises the

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need for the BBC to be independent, particularly in editorial matters.

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And the BBC will appoint a majority of the members of the new board with

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strict rules to ensure all appointments are made fairly and

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openly. The charter also provides financial stability to the BBC. By

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making clear that the licence fee will remain the key source of

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funding for the BBC for the next Charter period. Obligations for the

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BBC to consider both negative and positive market impacts of the

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activities are set out in the charter. Ofcom must also keep these

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in mind when renewing new and changed services. The BBC is obliged

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to work closely with others and share its knowledge, research and

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expertise for wider public benefit. The government wants a BBC that is

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as open and transparent as possible. The charter sets out new obligations

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in this regard. Including publishing the salaries of those employees and

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talent who earn more than ?150,000. The BBC serves all nations and

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regions. It needs to be more reflective of the whole of the UK

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and the new Charter requires space with a mission and public services.

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This will be supported by specific board representation including the

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nation members, which were the first time will be agreed with the

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administrations of Northern Ireland, as well as for Scotland, as is the

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case. Provision for the nations will be regulated by off gone through a

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new operating licence regime, which will include continuing the approach

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of production targets for making programmes outside London. One of

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the BBC's many responsibilities is to bring people together. Mr

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Speaker, supporting and encouraging greater cohesion, not least among

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the nations of this United Kingdom. Mr Speaker, we have made

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considerable progress since the publication of the White Paper and

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resolved a number of important areas with the BBC, allowing us to go

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further in the key areas of transparency, fairness and securing

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independence for the BBC. In addition to the principle of necks

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are public and made appointments, all made in line with best practice,

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I can confirm the charter sets out that the BBC will appoint nine board

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members, including five nonexecutive directors, and that an additional

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five will be public appointments. This means the BBC will appoint the

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majority of members to its new board. This ensures the independence

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of the BBC board and that each nation of the UK will have a voice.

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This will strengthen the BBC's independence from the position where

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all BBC Trustees were appointed by the government. The National Audit

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Office will become the BBC's financial auditor. In addition, the

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charter will enhance the role and access and allow it to conduct value

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for money studies on the BBC's commercial subsidiaries.

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There will be greater transparency with a fool, fair and open

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competition for the post of chair of the new BBC board. This is in-line

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with the culture select committee 's recommendation. It is a significant

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new post and transparency and fairness in making the employment is

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vital, not least so that industry and the public have confidence. I am

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grateful to Rona Fairhead who has decided not to be a candidate for

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the new post, for the work she has done as chair of the BBC trust, and

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in particular for her help in reforming the governance of the BBC.

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The fundamental reforms set out in the draft charter will take time to

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implement, given the complexity of the changes, the need for a smooth

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transition and the importance of consulting on some elements of the

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new regulatory structure. There will be a short period of transition

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before the BBC board and of common take on their new governors and

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regulatory roles on the 3rd of April next year. -- and Ofcom take on. We

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will work closely with the BBC .com to make sure all elements of

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transition are managed smoothly, to ensure the new BBC board will be

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established. Members of both houses will now have a chance to consider

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the proposals in detail. To help them with that, I have today

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deposited a series of information sheets in the libraries of both

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houses. I have also sent the draft documents to the devolved

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administrations, in order that the devolved legislatures will be able

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to debate them over the coming weeks. My DC MS ministerial

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colleagues and I look forward to parliamentary debates on the draft

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policy in due course. It will then be given to the Privy Council. The

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BBC is one of this country's greatest achievements and greatest

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treasures. These reforms ensure it will continue to be cherished at

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home and abroad for many years to come, and I commend the statement to

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the House. Thank you. May I first thank the Secretary of State for

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prior sight of her statement. The BBC is one of Britain's greatest

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achievements and treasures, and the broadcaster against which other

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broadcasters across the world are judged, and the quality of

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programmes are second to none. The BBC must be protected and sustained

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and its independence and funding. Would she accept that both of these

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are under some degree of threat? Is it not the case that the charter

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will sustain a degree of pressure under the BBC having government

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appointees on its new board, but more significantly would she accept

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that by introducing mid-term, this will put pressure on the BBC to look

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over its shoulder and seek to avoid upsetting governments when it should

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be genuinely independent and free to comment without fear or favour on

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what governments do. How will viewers and listeners be assured

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that the five-year health check will not put undue pressure on the BBC

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and be interpreted as a charter review? The new board with a number

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of government appointees responsible for decision-making could weaken the

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editorial independence. What guarantees would she give that the

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undue pressures from government would not affect BBC independence?

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Regarding funding, what assurances does she have for Lord Patten, what

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answers does she have for him, former chair of the BBC and

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conservative cabinet minister, that the BBC's financial security will be

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affected now it's cost of the over 75 TV licences are foisted on them,

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a decision he described as a heist. We take the view that welfare

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benefits such as the TV licences should be decided and paid for by

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government, not squeezed out of the BBC staff and programming, other

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licence fee payers and other pensioners. What answer does she

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have two that there and logical case? The government has also

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suggested that the BBC should have distinctiveness, a major departure

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from the view that the BBC should inform, educate and entertain.

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Channel 4 was created to bring distinctiveness to viewing, but as I

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direct affect on the squeeze of BBC funding, great BBC entertainment

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programmes are being moved to Channel 4. Is there not a threat

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that more of these programmes could follow? Even more worrying than that

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is that BBC funding might be further top sliced in future, can she give

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guarantees that this will not happen? Will she look again at

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government policy and its relationship with the BBC and give

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guarantees that the charter will not diminish the scope and effectiveness

:14:22.:14:25.

of the BBC? Will she accept that change is now being brought forward

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by government wants damage the BBC and its independence and its ability

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to put on the finest programmes because of the impact on its

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funding? It should be able to continue to put on the finest

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programmes across the range of its broadcasting. What assurances can

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the government give back if transferring regulation of the BBC

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to offer, it will retain its independence? What assurances can

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she give that the BBC will be able to carry on making programmes we all

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enjoy. Finally... Can I thank him for his comments and I agree with

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him that the BBC must be protected and sustained. The work we have done

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is to make sure the BBC cannot just survive but flourish in a new era,

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where it is not the world where everyone sat down and watched the

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same programme at the same time. People are accessing TV programmes

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in different ways and we want to make sure that this charter, which

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is an 11 year charter, for the first she -- for the first time we have

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made it an 11 year charter so it does not coincide with the electoral

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cycle, so there is no political influence on it. In addition, we do

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want to make sure this is the longest charter there has ever been,

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and therefore a mid-term review to ensure the BBC is still delivering

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what licence fee payers, which we all are, want to see is a very

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important part of the proposals. I must pick up on the point about the

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deputy chair of. There is no longer a deputy chair within the broad

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structure. There is a chair for a nation members that our government,

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public appointments. It is very important that we have a member for

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each of the nations on the board and that that is a full public

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appointment and that the chair is also an open and transparent

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appointment, but we're not appointing a deputy chair, that is a

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matter for the board to determine who the senior independent director

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should be. He mentioned distinctiveness and ensuring

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distinctiveness. The board distinctiveness is taken from the

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White Paper, which was a result of the consultation for which we had

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the hundreds -- 190,000 responses. The largest consultation of its

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kind. I accept his point about Channel 4 and making sure there is a

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difference between Channel 4 and the BBC, but for licence fee payers and

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for us as a nation, the distinctiveness of the BBC is what

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makes it so great. It is the thing that makes the BBC something that we

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can sell across the world. Over the summer I don't think there is any

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offers who did not come into contact with some form of BBC content while

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we were abroad on original idea that was being shown locally or talked

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about locally. He talks about editorial independence. This charter

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is setting out editorial independence and ensuring this is an

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entirely independent BBC. I think it is worth also saying that while

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public appointments will be public appointment is going through the

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full process, once they are board members they are BBC board members

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working towards ensuring the BBC is the greatest it possibly can be.

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Finally he made a point about funding. On the over 75 TV licences

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point, if I could quote the director-general, Tony Hall, he said

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in July 2015, the government's decision to bid the cost of the over

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75 on as has been more than matched by the deal coming back for the BBC.

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As I mentioned earlier there is another statement to follow, then

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two debates to take place under the auspices of the backbench business

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committee, of which the first is notably well subscribed, so there is

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a premium on brevity. Can I appeal to colleagues, even distinguished

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backbench members, to avoid discoverers of commentary or lengthy

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preamble, and just get to an enquiry. Will she confirmed that

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this draft charter is not, as some have said, either a damp squib or

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the brainchild of Rupert Murdoch? Does she agree that the charter

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makes significant changes, including the new governance structure, the

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new requirements, diversity, distinctiveness and impartiality,

:19:28.:19:32.

the opening up of a schedule to 100% competition, and full access to the

:19:33.:19:37.

NAO, that these changes will ensure that the BBC continues to be the

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best broadcaster in the world? Yes, I agree. My right honourable friend,

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we owe a great debt to him for the place we are with the charter today.

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May I thank the Secretary of State for advanced sight of this. We're

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great champions of public service broadcasting. There are a number of

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her announcements which we welcome. We welcome the commitment to

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equality and diversity, we welcome the commitment to transparency and

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openness. As you know, this is something we have not always seen in

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the BBC, not least with the appointment of Lorna Fairhead, as we

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discovered at the select committee hearings, she was appointed after a

:20:28.:20:33.

cosy private chat with the Prime Minister, which is not the way that

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significant appointment should be made. -- Rhona Fairhead. She is

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entirely right to throw open disappointment to public

:20:43.:20:48.

competition. -- this appointment to public competition. We also welcome

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the conditions and talent pay. Does she agree that the BBC argument that

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this will be a charter to poach talent is quite simply nonsense? If

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your agent is worth his or her salt, they will know exactly how much you

:21:06.:21:11.

and all your competition are paid. I know this from bitter experience.

:21:12.:21:19.

What the danger of this particular announcement is, perhaps she would

:21:20.:21:24.

agree, is that the BBC will be forced to reveal the salaries of

:21:25.:21:28.

many of its more mediocre but overpaid employees, and there may be

:21:29.:21:36.

some teeth gnashing as a result when they discover what goes on behind

:21:37.:21:41.

closed doors. We welcome the recognition of gay leak, but will

:21:42.:21:45.

she go further for us and tell us whether this

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Whether this should be Welsh? -- - Gaelic. It says one of the BBC... He

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is out of his time, but he will be finishing his sentences. Would she

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agree that the matter of a separate Scottish six O'Clock News isn't

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ideal the responsibility of the BBC and the right to continue? I suspect

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there is significant personal feeling amongst his comments above

:22:24.:22:33.

pay. I will not comment further. On the subject of the role of the chair

:22:34.:22:39.

of the new BBC board, this is an entirely new role. This is not a

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continuation of the BBC trust. I want to pay tribute to Rona

:22:50.:22:57.

Fairhead, but it needed to be open to a full recruitment process to

:22:58.:23:03.

make sure we get the right person for the job. I accept that she has

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decided to not put herself forward for the role. If I can return to the

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point about regional broadcasting and BBC Alba, he will appreciate

:23:13.:23:18.

that it is part of the BBC, whereas S4 see is a separate independent

:23:19.:23:23.

business, which is why there may appear to be a difference in terms

:23:24.:23:30.

of treatment. -- S4C. It is to reflect that BBC Alba is a

:23:31.:23:35.

wholly-owned part of the BBC. We have beefed up considerably the role

:23:36.:23:41.

in the charter. Finally, on the point about the Scottish six, the

:23:42.:23:49.

BBC is the nation's broadcaster, and I expect the BBC to reflect the

:23:50.:23:54.

national mood and national news that is important across the nation. But

:23:55.:24:00.

he is right that it is for the BBC, who have operational independence in

:24:01.:24:02.

this matter, who determine exactly how to make that happen. May I echo

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the Secretary of State's praise for the Member for Molden, and I would

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say that the charter has been significantly enhanced by the

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amendments, particularly on pay. May ask the Secretary of State make sure

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diversity remains a significant part of the charter? I pay tribute to him

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for the role he carried out, the longest serving Culture Minister I

:24:38.:24:41.

think we have ever seen. I agree with him on his points on diversity.

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I can confirm that is the case. Given where we could have ended up,

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can I welcome this statement today, in particular the government's

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backing down of the composition of the board. But given that Rona

:24:56.:24:59.

Fairhead was appointed to effectively abolish her own

:25:00.:25:03.

organisation and has done so, and to oversee as huge transfer to a

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unitary board, hasn't her treatment been a little rough? I do not accept

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this is a backbone on the board. This is about looking up what is

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appropriate -- and appropriate balanced board, which will make the

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most effective way to deliver on its charter requirements. I do not think

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it is the case with Miss Fairhead, this is no reflection on his or her

:25:32.:25:35.

ability to do the role, but this is merely a brand-new role. I welcome

:25:36.:25:40.

the decision to accept the recommendation of the select

:25:41.:25:42.

committee that there should be an open and fair process for the

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appointment of the chair of the board. When do she hope that

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appointment will be made, and when the new unitary board will assume

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its new responsibilities? My honorary friend -- honourable friend

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has done sterling work, and influence the work we have done over

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the summer on the charter. As I said in my statement, I expect the new

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board to be in place and all the regulatory issues working by the 3rd

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of April next year, but I would expect the new chair of the board to

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be appointed before then. Does the Secretary of State acknowledge that

:26:23.:26:26.

a lot of us do not share the sentimentality often expressed about

:26:27.:26:29.

the BBC, especially when they have been at the brunt of its bias over

:26:30.:26:36.

several years? In terms of its transparency, could the Secretary of

:26:37.:26:39.

State outline why has this been limited to the publication of

:26:40.:26:46.

expenses or salaries over ?150,000? Why can it not be brought in line

:26:47.:26:49.

with members of Parliament expenses, in terms of ?75,000 and all other

:26:50.:26:53.

expenses including travel and accommodation? I know he has

:26:54.:27:08.

long-term issues, would be the best way of putting it, but there are

:27:09.:27:13.

many programmes he enjoys, I am sure, and it is something we should

:27:14.:27:18.

cherish and really want to protect. This is Britain at its best when it

:27:19.:27:22.

is at its best. The Rio Olympics being a prime example of when the

:27:23.:27:29.

whole of Britain came together. Regarding transparency on pay, it is

:27:30.:27:33.

in line with civil servants on transparency, but at the moment the

:27:34.:27:39.

first disclosures will be on bigger bands than we have. Wide does it

:27:40.:27:47.

need the criminal law in place to encourage people to pay for it? In

:27:48.:27:51.

terms of transparency, does she agree with me that if the BBC wants

:27:52.:27:56.

to take public money, it should be transparent, and if it doesn't want

:27:57.:27:59.

to be then it should not take public money?

:28:00.:28:04.

We carried out the review looking at decriminalisation and it found there

:28:05.:28:12.

was a need for a criminal sanction on the system but this is one of

:28:13.:28:16.

those issues which will continue to be luck at, and of course the BBC

:28:17.:28:19.

needs to be transparent to show it is reducing value for money. Can I

:28:20.:28:25.

thank the Secretary of State about the importance of the BBC, any

:28:26.:28:29.

organisation which can turn Ed Balls into Fred Astaire is remarkable.

:28:30.:28:36.

Canty emphasise the charter does not undermine effectivity of BBC

:28:37.:28:39.

Scotland's news programming and underline how important it is for

:28:40.:28:44.

audiences to programming and not politicians? I agree, this is for

:28:45.:28:50.

the BBC and the viewing public to make that determination. They will

:28:51.:28:54.

watch the programmes they want to watch and the BBC can take editorial

:28:55.:28:57.

decisions around it. I'm not sure the right honourable member is keen

:28:58.:29:09.

she's married to Fred Astaire. Just for clarity, I would like to ask the

:29:10.:29:15.

Secretary of State wider is no provision in the statement that

:29:16.:29:19.

Scotland's own Six O'Clock News. That is a matter of editorial

:29:20.:29:24.

independence of the BBC and for them to make that decision. Wendy for the

:29:25.:29:34.

education and culture committee of the Scotland -- when the, decisions

:29:35.:29:42.

would rest of London executives. Does this new Charter satisfy the

:29:43.:29:47.

desire by people in Scotland with greater autonomy over decisions lies

:29:48.:29:51.

where it should for commissioners in Scotland? She will have seen the

:29:52.:29:55.

letter from the director-general setting out his view of how the BBC

:29:56.:30:01.

ensures that happens. As an independent BBC, it is for them to

:30:02.:30:06.

make sure that happens. Can I welcome my right honourable friend's

:30:07.:30:09.

statement, in relation to the involvement of the National Audit

:30:10.:30:13.

Office? And the value for money assessments they will be able to

:30:14.:30:18.

make. Does she agree that this should deliver confidence,

:30:19.:30:21.

transparency, accountability and financial rigour? I do. We've seen

:30:22.:30:28.

the BBC unable increasingly to afford sports events, the great

:30:29.:30:35.

British bake off an order, pressures on the BBC services. Isn't it a case

:30:36.:30:44.

this government keeps undermining? They have do fund the World Service,

:30:45.:30:56.

local TV and ?600 million. I totally disagree, I will quote the

:30:57.:30:59.

director-general who said far from being a cut, the way this financial

:31:00.:31:03.

settlement is shaved gives us effectively flat licence fee income

:31:04.:31:08.

across the first five years of the next Charter. Will she make sure no

:31:09.:31:14.

decisions are taken about the monitoring service before important

:31:15.:31:18.

select committee enquiries are held next month? Can I say, I did not

:31:19.:31:23.

share this unhealthy obsession with what other people earn. I was told

:31:24.:31:31.

it was rude to ask. I will write to my right on boyfriend on that

:31:32.:31:38.

answer. -- right honourable friend. In her statement she talked about

:31:39.:31:42.

the nations, but in terms of the regions, can she say in the charter

:31:43.:31:47.

will impact on regional news programmes and regional local radio,

:31:48.:31:53.

such as BBC Humberside? The decisions about news programming our

:31:54.:32:00.

editorial matters for the BBC and they have independence, as set out

:32:01.:32:04.

in the charter. I strongly agree with her we need to see strong

:32:05.:32:08.

regional programming across the whole of the UK and that is what is

:32:09.:32:15.

clear on this charter. Following on from the honourable lady's question,

:32:16.:32:20.

the Secretary of State will be aware that English regions feel their

:32:21.:32:25.

voice is not heard loud enough. She refers specifically to Scotland,

:32:26.:32:29.

Wales and Northern Ireland. What representation will there be for the

:32:30.:32:34.

English regions? I can assure there will be an English board member, a

:32:35.:32:39.

public appointment, and I will do everything I can to make sure that

:32:40.:32:43.

board member represents the regions of England. In his latest report,

:32:44.:32:49.

the audience Council of Wales of the corporation needs to be more

:32:50.:32:53.

accountable to Welsh audiences. How will this be achieved and can she

:32:54.:32:58.

commit a Wales member will sit permanently on the board of Ofcom

:32:59.:33:02.

now it has assumed the role of external regulator? He is confusing

:33:03.:33:09.

the new unitary border with Ofcom, they are separate bodies, the Ofcom

:33:10.:33:13.

is a regulator, the new unitary board will have governance over the

:33:14.:33:18.

BBC. The Secretary of State will be aware the epic battle in the last

:33:19.:33:21.

Parliament between the Public Accounts Committee and the BBC over

:33:22.:33:25.

the issue of redundancy payments were senior managers. Part was the

:33:26.:33:32.

discrepancy between legal resources, and so on that basis while I welcome

:33:33.:33:37.

the involvement of the National Audit Office, will she'd ensure they

:33:38.:33:41.

have the appropriate resources and power to hold the BBC to account?

:33:42.:33:46.

Yes, I can give him that assurance and I can tell him we're putting a

:33:47.:33:51.

cap on payments on redundancy of ?95,000. Can the Minister tell us

:33:52.:33:59.

what limit the is on the commissioning programmes? It was

:34:00.:34:05.

100% commissioning, you could have privatisation by the back door.

:34:06.:34:11.

Clearly the BBC needs to produce original content. But the way they

:34:12.:34:18.

do that, by commissioning through independent production companies,

:34:19.:34:22.

means we get a thriving independent production sector that then consult

:34:23.:34:25.

the rest of the world. I encourage them to do all this and make sure we

:34:26.:34:31.

have those creative clusters. If we look at Manchester, for example, an

:34:32.:34:35.

amazing amount of activity and new businesses as a result of BBC being

:34:36.:34:39.

in Manchester commissioning programmes. Does this Secretary of

:34:40.:34:46.

State share my hope and that expressed by Clare balding that when

:34:47.:34:51.

talent salaries revealed it does not reveal a gender pay gap? I think he

:34:52.:34:58.

makes it very good point. I'm glad to see some progress on this issue

:34:59.:35:06.

as I have a staff raised in Glasgow -- 850 staff based in Glasgow.

:35:07.:35:14.

Will she be clear, and will she meets the request from BBC Alba to

:35:15.:35:25.

increase in-house programme contribution to BBC Alba, to match

:35:26.:35:33.

that ten hours a week? As I said in response to her honourable friend,

:35:34.:35:40.

BBC Alba is a subsidiary of the BBC, where is S foresee is not. I agree

:35:41.:35:47.

there are some fantastic broadcasters from Glasgow and we do

:35:48.:35:51.

want to make sure BBC Alba and others have the resources they need.

:35:52.:35:56.

The village and the league of gentlemen were both made my

:35:57.:36:03.

constituency, those programmes bring great economic benefit because

:36:04.:36:07.

people come here. In the draft charter, is there something to

:36:08.:36:10.

encourage the production of programmes outside London in all our

:36:11.:36:14.

consistency so we all get the benefit of the BBC? I have to

:36:15.:36:18.

declare an interest because I have cousins who live in Hadfield,

:36:19.:36:22.

otherwise known as Royston Vaizey. I'm keen to make sure there are

:36:23.:36:25.

other visitors there. ... Free TV licences but if it

:36:26.:36:42.

satisfies. I was told the Scottish figure is 49 million, a lot of many.

:36:43.:36:49.

Can the government to respond to the criticism that transferring across

:36:50.:36:51.

from government to the BBC will have a detrimental affect on high-quality

:36:52.:36:56.

programming? I simply don't agree with that point, I do not agree that

:36:57.:37:01.

this is going to impact on programming when the BBC have the

:37:02.:37:06.

guaranteed licence fee rising in line with inflation over the

:37:07.:37:12.

five-year period. Can I welcome the statement from the Secretary of

:37:13.:37:16.

State? Can she give me assurances the excellent training and develop

:37:17.:37:19.

meant and apprenticeship programmes of the BBC run will not be affected

:37:20.:37:21.

by this charter review? Could the Secretary of State tell

:37:22.:37:31.

the House how these measures will deal with the widely accepted view,

:37:32.:37:35.

and it may be shared by the honourable member who speaks for the

:37:36.:37:40.

opposition, that the BBC is institutionally biased in favour of

:37:41.:37:45.

the European Union? My honourable friend will be pleased to know Ofcom

:37:46.:37:50.

is the regulator and the new proposals and that the NAL will be

:37:51.:37:55.

looking at the value for money for the taxpayer and all of that will

:37:56.:37:59.

help to make sure BBC bias is addressed. Can my right honourable

:38:00.:38:06.

friend confirmed that under the Charter, the BBC will continue

:38:07.:38:09.

properly to invest in excellent local radio such as the station her

:38:10.:38:14.

constituents and I share? I don't know how he held back from

:38:15.:38:19.

mentioning BBC Radio Stoke by name. I know there will not give me an

:38:20.:38:23.

easy time and I don't give that assurance. -- if I don't give that

:38:24.:38:32.

assurance. He wasn't looking to intervene on this, but on the next.

:38:33.:38:41.

I'm grateful. Statement, the Secretary of State for business,

:38:42.:38:47.

energy and industrial strategy. Doctor Greg Clark.

:38:48.:38:52.

I would like to make a statement on the Hinkley point CE nuclear power

:38:53.:39:05.

plant. In July, following a statement, regarding the ?18 billion

:39:06.:39:09.

project to build a new project in Somerset, I would ask the government

:39:10.:39:16.

to consider all points of the contract and we would make a

:39:17.:39:20.

decision by the early autumn. I can announce that the government has

:39:21.:39:24.

decided to proceed with the first new nuclear power station for a

:39:25.:39:29.

generation. But this is made with two important changes. On the

:39:30.:39:32.

project itself, the government will now be able to prevent the sale of

:39:33.:39:38.

EDF's controlling stake before the completion of construction. This

:39:39.:39:42.

will be confirmed in an exchange of letters between the government and

:39:43.:39:46.

EDF. Existing legal powers and the new legal framework will mean the

:39:47.:39:49.

government is able to intervene in the sale of EDF steak once it is

:39:50.:39:57.

operational. Further more and more importantly, we reformed the legal

:39:58.:40:02.

framework for foreign investments in British critical infrastructure.

:40:03.:40:06.

These reforms will have three elements. Firstly, after Hinkley the

:40:07.:40:09.

British Government will take a special share in all future nuclear

:40:10.:40:14.

new-build projects. This will ensure that significant stakes cannot be

:40:15.:40:18.

sold without the government's knowledge or consent. Secondly, the

:40:19.:40:23.

office for nuclear regulation will be directed to require notice from

:40:24.:40:27.

developers or operators of nuclear sites of any change of ownership or

:40:28.:40:32.

part ownership. This will allow the government to advise or direct the

:40:33.:40:43.

ONL to take action. The government will reform its ownership and

:40:44.:40:49.

control of infrastructure to ensure the implications of foreign

:40:50.:40:53.

ownership are scrutinised for the purposes of national scrutiny. This

:40:54.:40:56.

will include a review of the public interest regime and the introduction

:40:57.:41:10.

of a ... The changes will bring Britain's policy framework for the

:41:11.:41:13.

ownership and control of the infrastructure into line with other

:41:14.:41:17.

major economies, allowing the UK Government to take a favour and

:41:18.:41:21.

consistent approach to the National security implications of critical

:41:22.:41:24.

infrastructure including nuclear energy in the future. These changes

:41:25.:41:28.

mean that while the UK will remain one of the most open economies in

:41:29.:41:32.

the world, the public can be confident that foreign direct

:41:33.:41:35.

investment works always in the country's best interests. This ?18

:41:36.:41:42.

billion investment in Britain provides an upgrade in our supply of

:41:43.:41:46.

clean energy. When it begins producing electricity in the middle

:41:47.:41:50.

of the next decade it will provide 7% of the UK's electricity needs,

:41:51.:41:56.

giving secure energy to 6 million homes for 60 years. Furthermore it

:41:57.:42:01.

must be stressed that the contracts negotiated places all the

:42:02.:42:04.

construction risk on investors alone. Consumers will not pay a

:42:05.:42:09.

penny unless and until the plant generates electricity. The new site

:42:10.:42:21.

contains important elements of insurance in construction and future

:42:22.:42:26.

high gas prices, which have historically been volatile. It

:42:27.:42:32.

compares broadly with other clean energy, with additional costs of

:42:33.:42:38.

intermittency, or gas capture and storage, for example. Hinkley

:42:39.:42:43.

unleashes a long overdue wave of investment in nuclear engineering in

:42:44.:42:50.

the UK, creating 26,000 jobs and apprenticeships, providing a huge

:42:51.:42:52.

boost to the economy not only in the South West Burton of the part of the

:42:53.:42:56.

country, through the supply chain of firms big and small that will

:42:57.:43:00.

benefit from the investment. EDF have also confirmed that UK

:43:01.:43:04.

businesses are set to secure 64% of the value of the investment being

:43:05.:43:11.

made, the biggest single capital projects in the UK today. As the

:43:12.:43:17.

first of a wave of new nuclear plants, we expect the experience of

:43:18.:43:20.

rebooting the nuclear industry to mean that the cost should reduce for

:43:21.:43:27.

future nuclear power stations, of which another five are proposed. In

:43:28.:43:32.

any consideration of nuclear power, safety will always be the number one

:43:33.:43:38.

consideration. The construction Hinkley point C will be under close

:43:39.:43:44.

year of the office of nuclear regulation, which has the power

:43:45.:43:50.

necessary to halt construction or require amendments to any part of

:43:51.:43:53.

the plant if it is not completely satisfied with the safety of any

:43:54.:43:58.

part of the reactor and its associated construction. Unlike in

:43:59.:44:01.

the past, the long-term decommissioning costs will be... Any

:44:02.:44:14.

investment that provide significant electricity supplies for the next

:44:15.:44:19.

two generations of British people and businesses requires deserve

:44:20.:44:23.

serious consideration. It was right that the new government should have

:44:24.:44:27.

taken the time to consider all components of the project, and now

:44:28.:44:31.

having reviewed the project, the government is satisfied that the

:44:32.:44:34.

improved deal and the other changes announced will, for the first time,

:44:35.:44:37.

remedy the weaknesses of the previous regime of foreign ownership

:44:38.:44:42.

for critical infrastructure. Is important that the right balance for

:44:43.:44:46.

welcoming foreign investment and ensuring it serves the national

:44:47.:44:50.

interest is made, which these changes would achieve. The

:44:51.:44:54.

investment will secure 7% of the UK's electricity needs for 60 years.

:44:55.:45:00.

Helping replace existing nuclear capacity which is due to be

:45:01.:45:03.

decommissioned in the decade ahead. The electricity generated would be

:45:04.:45:10.

reliable and low carbon, so completely reliable with climate

:45:11.:45:12.

change obligations. And Hinkley point C will inaugurate a new era of

:45:13.:45:18.

UK nuclear power with UK-based businesses benefiting from almost

:45:19.:45:22.

two thirds of the ?18 billion value of the project, with 26,000 jobs and

:45:23.:45:28.

apprenticeships created. It is now right that we support this major

:45:29.:45:34.

upgrade, the first of many, to the infrastructure of which our future

:45:35.:45:37.

depends. I commend the statement to the House. I thank the Secretary of

:45:38.:45:44.

State for the 13 minutes advance notice of his statement. First let

:45:45.:45:47.

me be clear, this is an important project that must now go forward

:45:48.:45:54.

without any further interruption or delay. The Secretary of State is

:45:55.:45:58.

aware that by intervening on the 28th of July after EDF's final

:45:59.:46:01.

investment decision, the government Peter Greste 25,000 well-paid jobs,

:46:02.:46:06.

well-qualified jobs. He knows that it not only list the investment into

:46:07.:46:14.

UK jobs and infrastructure, but dropped confidence on investors, who

:46:15.:46:18.

now believe that the Prime Minister does not understand the significance

:46:19.:46:23.

that companies attach to the taking of the final investment decision. --

:46:24.:46:28.

the government put at risk 25,000 well-paid jobs. The delay has only

:46:29.:46:41.

unsettled investors further. Did the Prime Minister attempt in any way to

:46:42.:46:46.

isolate the building of a reactor from the deal at Hinkley Point see.

:46:47.:46:53.

What was the Chinese response? Every member of the House will agree that

:46:54.:46:57.

government has primary responsibility to safeguard national

:46:58.:46:59.

security, but neither the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister have

:47:00.:47:03.

never been clearer about what they consider to be the security risks

:47:04.:47:08.

associated with the current deal, so will he said he is out now, so that

:47:09.:47:13.

the House and public can take a decision as to whether the

:47:14.:47:15.

modifications he is proposing adequately reflect the risks he

:47:16.:47:21.

believe exist. Can he set out whether the government were happy

:47:22.:47:30.

with what he set out regarding the nuclear reactor, and if so was he

:47:31.:47:33.

aware that two such reactors are already under construction in China?

:47:34.:47:38.

Were they concerned about the potential of a cyber attack, and had

:47:39.:47:41.

he not consider that given the importance to the Chinese of having

:47:42.:47:45.

Bradwell advocate well standard to market their reactor technology

:47:46.:47:49.

around the world, such an attack would undermine the very reason why

:47:50.:47:52.

the Chinese wanted to be involved in the project in the first place. The

:47:53.:47:57.

Secretary of State wishes to dodge these questions, if he does by

:47:58.:48:00.

pleading he does not wish to discuss security matters, then I would ask

:48:01.:48:05.

how he can assure the House and the public that the efficacy of the

:48:06.:48:07.

amendments he is proposing are sufficient to meet the risks and

:48:08.:48:11.

challenges that justified a near fatal delay of the project? We must

:48:12.:48:17.

address this whole argument that the government has actually presented as

:48:18.:48:22.

well as those they have not. They have claimed they have introduced

:48:23.:48:25.

significant new safeguards into this package, in particular that they

:48:26.:48:29.

will be able to require notification from owners are operators of nuclear

:48:30.:48:34.

sites of any change of ownership or part ownership. But the Secretary of

:48:35.:48:43.

State already has such powers. Will he acknowledge that he can currently

:48:44.:48:49.

prevent the sale of any infrastructure, and can he explain

:48:50.:48:53.

why he believes the proposed new powers adds significantly to the

:48:54.:48:58.

public interest regulations in the enterprise act 2002, or are they

:48:59.:49:02.

merely windowdressing to make it appear that the government's

:49:03.:49:06.

intervention has achieved something, no matter how much appearances may

:49:07.:49:10.

indicate to the contrary? Is he aware of the House of Commons

:49:11.:49:13.

briefing paper entitled mergers in the public interest, which measures

:49:14.:49:19.

that energy security is already covered by national security and the

:49:20.:49:22.

government already has the powers to prevent such a sale? Is he aware

:49:23.:49:26.

that in the House of Lords during the passage of the energy act, my

:49:27.:49:31.

noble friend introduced an amendment specifically to introduce energy

:49:32.:49:36.

security as a new public interest term. Government lawyers then

:49:37.:49:41.

advised, in cases where a a merger opposed a genuine and serious threat

:49:42.:49:46.

to societal needs, such as energy supply, this would be covered by the

:49:47.:49:51.

existing provisions in the 2002 regarding national security?

:49:52.:49:55.

Investors would be empowered to directly intervene. The government

:49:56.:50:02.

created a commercial crisis, sending shock waves through the industry and

:50:03.:50:06.

unions, they list a the dramatic dispute with one of our key future

:50:07.:50:11.

trading partners, and in the end all they have done is pretend to give

:50:12.:50:14.

themselves powers which they already possessed. This statement is

:50:15.:50:20.

windowdressing. It is face-saving by a government that topped a big and

:50:21.:50:26.

backed down with a whimper. The Secretary of State should explain

:50:27.:50:34.

whether he has the new technology, particularly bad storage technology

:50:35.:50:37.

and energy efficiency measures, to manage the electricity supply to

:50:38.:50:43.

reduce a need for baseload supply. I think he has concluded, has he not?

:50:44.:50:52.

His time is up. The honourable gentleman raised a number of points,

:50:53.:50:55.

a large number of points, and I will address them. I hope we share the

:50:56.:51:01.

view that a confident long-term energy policy is vital to ensuring

:51:02.:51:05.

that people have access to securing energy that is affordable and clean,

:51:06.:51:12.

and we should be a world leader in these industries, but I hope he will

:51:13.:51:16.

not think it churlish of me to point out that it was the complete absence

:51:17.:51:20.

of a long-term energy policy during the 13 years in which Labour were in

:51:21.:51:26.

government in which our nuclear fleet was known to be coming to the

:51:27.:51:31.

end of its life and no decision was taken to replace them. It has fallen

:51:32.:51:36.

to this government to make the long term decisions for the security of

:51:37.:51:42.

this country. And instead of the approach of making like the ostrich

:51:43.:51:47.

and hoping the problem will go away, this government is looking to the

:51:48.:51:52.

future, providing the upgrade to the energy security we need. In terms of

:51:53.:51:58.

his position today, I'm afraid I am as confused by it as ever. His

:51:59.:52:04.

position is no more credible. He seemed to be criticising the Prime

:52:05.:52:08.

Minister and the government for taking the serious decision to

:52:09.:52:12.

review the components of a very important deal, that seems to be the

:52:13.:52:19.

input of his intervention. He said that this has damaged confidence,

:52:20.:52:26.

but when the announcement was made on the 29th of July, the honourable

:52:27.:52:30.

gentleman told the BBC, I am hoping that what the government will do is

:52:31.:52:35.

to take two to three months to seriously review it. So much for the

:52:36.:52:41.

suggestion that we should not have had this review in the first place.

:52:42.:52:45.

Mind you, I am not sure what the purpose of this two or three months

:52:46.:52:50.

would be because the very same day, as I have it, he said that he had

:52:51.:52:53.

already made up his mind, he said that he would not scrap the

:52:54.:53:02.

proposal, because he welcomes the jobs and electricity this will

:53:03.:53:05.

produce for the nation. Saw this honourable member was urging the

:53:06.:53:14.

public to take -- government to take longer to discuss. The approach this

:53:15.:53:18.

government has taken I think is marked. The point he raises, in

:53:19.:53:27.

terms of the powers under the enterprise act, they are subject to

:53:28.:53:31.

thresholds, takeover threshold, and we're making sure any change in

:53:32.:53:35.

ownership or control of whatever size will be covered if a national

:53:36.:53:41.

security test, which is sensible. On the point of Hinkley Point, it was

:53:42.:53:52.

the case until we had propose these changes to the contract, that EDF

:53:53.:53:57.

was at liberty to sell its majority stake in this very important

:53:58.:54:02.

investment without even needing to have the permission of the UK

:54:03.:54:05.

Government, so it seems to me no more than sensible and prudent to

:54:06.:54:12.

have agreed with EDF that they should be the consent the British

:54:13.:54:14.

Government required. I am surprised the honourable

:54:15.:54:22.

gentleman, who I would have thought would take a prudent view of matters

:54:23.:54:26.

of national security, seems to suggest, it is not clear what he is

:54:27.:54:30.

suggesting, that we not make these changes when we come to debate these

:54:31.:54:34.

things in future, he will set out whether he opposes the measures

:54:35.:54:38.

taken to safeguard and entrench the same kind of regime for national

:54:39.:54:44.

security that we have in this country that other advanced

:54:45.:54:48.

economies enjoyed. In terms of future investments, I was clear in

:54:49.:54:51.

my statement, this is the first of what we hoped would be a series of

:54:52.:54:55.

nuclear investments, it is important we replace the 20% of power

:54:56.:55:02.

generated by nuclear power with another contribution to a diverse

:55:03.:55:08.

energy mix and in so doing we are creating new jobs, new

:55:09.:55:10.

opportunities, major advances for the UK economy. I welcome proposals

:55:11.:55:18.

to make it more difficult for foreign interest, specialised

:55:19.:55:28.

nationalised interest, to buy our future power. Would it be more

:55:29.:55:36.

prudent for Treasury investors rather than foreign investors who

:55:37.:55:39.

will now be able to take enormous sums out of our country with 25

:55:40.:55:43.

years or more while this project is up and running which is a cost on

:55:44.:55:47.

the balance of payments that we don't really want. I welcome

:55:48.:55:52.

overseas investment of ?18 billion into the UK economy. I hope we

:55:53.:55:58.

develop our nuclear programme and the skills and supply chain prosper

:55:59.:56:04.

so that there will be British companies that will invest in the

:56:05.:56:09.

various parts of the supply chain of new nuclear power, we expect that to

:56:10.:56:16.

happen, 64% of the value going to UK companies. But I think it is an

:56:17.:56:22.

important part of the deal that the consumer and the tax payer will not

:56:23.:56:27.

pay a penny for the construction costs unless and until its generate

:56:28.:56:33.

electricity. Knowing the record that there has been of cost overruns and

:56:34.:56:37.

delays to new nuclear power stations, I think it is prudent that

:56:38.:56:42.

the risk is held by the investors rather than by the taxpayer in this

:56:43.:56:49.

case. I thank the Secretary of State for the advanced copy of the

:56:50.:56:52.

statement and the energy Minister for the courtesy call this morning

:56:53.:56:55.

to explain the Government's decision and I welcome the fact that we are

:56:56.:56:58.

having this statement before the recess to allow the opportunity for

:56:59.:57:02.

questions. I think it is unfortunate that the Government has decided to

:57:03.:57:08.

take the gamble with Hinckley. There right improvements that the

:57:09.:57:10.

Secretary of State has outlined but the deal still remains a rotten one.

:57:11.:57:16.

The ?30 billion that it will cost the bill payer, he may say

:57:17.:57:28.

that the risk is with EDF and the construction companies, but, as

:57:29.:57:32.

Berkeley outlined, 25% over budget and four years late and it will

:57:33.:57:35.

still make a profit. That will be at the expense of the bill payer. If we

:57:36.:57:39.

do not pay a penny until it is blocked, or if it is built late,

:57:40.:57:44.

what fills the gap? Coal is due to come off the system by 2025 when

:57:45.:57:48.

this is meant to come on, if that gap is five years, what will fill it

:57:49.:57:54.

and at what cost? I think the cost of this project, probably the single

:57:55.:58:00.

most expensive object in history, is too much. But what concerns me is

:58:01.:58:05.

the opportunity cost that we have here, because we cannot spend the

:58:06.:58:09.

money twice, we cannot have the engineers working on things twice

:58:10.:58:13.

and we cannot produce the electricity to be consumed twice and

:58:14.:58:17.

we could spend this money better, we could use our expertise better and

:58:18.:58:20.

use it to develop an industrial strategy which this Government has

:58:21.:58:25.

said is part of its new strategy. But that industrial strategy will

:58:26.:58:27.

mean foreign ownership, foreign investment and foreign profit, and

:58:28.:58:53.

instead we could be developing home-grown industries that would see

:58:54.:58:55.

our country flourish, investing in clean carbon capture, investing in

:58:56.:58:57.

offshore wind, investing in storage, investing in solar. These things

:58:58.:58:59.

would all be better spent. Can I ask the Minister to invest in the energy

:59:00.:59:02.

of the future, not the energy of the past? I am grateful for the

:59:03.:59:05.

courteous words. He talks about investing in future energy sources

:59:06.:59:07.

rather than the past. I gently point out to him that, given the SNP's

:59:08.:59:11.

record of energy forecasts in recent months, that perhaps they might keep

:59:12.:59:14.

their crystal balls to themselves, if I can put it that way. In terms

:59:15.:59:20.

of understanding the injunction that the honourable gentleman Gibbs to

:59:21.:59:26.

investors, it is very important, and he will know that Scotland has a

:59:27.:59:31.

high proportion of renewable investment, but I am confused by his

:59:32.:59:36.

party's position on this because the SNP, as I understand it, has stood

:59:37.:59:40.

on a platform of nuclear free Scotland but it seems to be with

:59:41.:59:44.

their fingers crossed behind their back because they are happy to rely

:59:45.:59:51.

on the two nuclear power stations functioning in Scotland that are

:59:52.:59:54.

producing low carbon electricity. His former leader of the party road

:59:55.:59:58.

to EDF to say that he was happy to extend the life of the two power

:59:59.:00:05.

plants well into the 2020s. He wants to condemn his cake and eat it and

:00:06.:00:08.

then have another slice, it seems to me. In terms of the point that he

:00:09.:00:13.

made about overseas investment, we want to attract overseas investment

:00:14.:00:20.

as a vote of confidence in this country that investors are working

:00:21.:00:27.

with us to have this major upgrade of our infrastructure, we welcome

:00:28.:00:30.

that across different sectors. He is wrong is that this is at the expense

:00:31.:00:36.

of opportunities that we have in this country, because one of the

:00:37.:00:41.

features of this deal is it does not burden the public balance sheet, we

:00:42.:00:48.

have been wise to make sure that the UK balance sheet remains able to

:00:49.:00:55.

support other investments. With your indulgence, could I thank the

:00:56.:00:58.

Secretary of State and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister

:00:59.:01:00.

for making exactly the right decision and how important it is for

:01:01.:01:07.

the West Somerset constituency. I invite the Secretary of State to

:01:08.:01:10.

come down as soon as he can to visit the Hinkley Point the power station

:01:11.:01:15.

and said that could he look with some urgency at the nuclear college

:01:16.:01:19.

that we need to build with some urgency but also further to my

:01:20.:01:23.

letter which I sent him from the LEP that we need the last bit of the

:01:24.:01:27.

funding to make sure that the infrastructure to deal with this in

:01:28.:01:31.

the local area is up to scratch so that we can deliver this power plant

:01:32.:01:36.

on time, on budget for the benefit of the United Kingdom. Can I return

:01:37.:01:40.

the complement and thank my honourable friend for his

:01:41.:01:43.

level-headedness and patience while this review has been conducted? It

:01:44.:01:54.

is an extremely important investment for his area, I am looking forward

:01:55.:01:57.

greatly to coming with him to visit Hinckley, and he is right that

:01:58.:02:00.

investments such as the college that will provide the skills that are

:02:01.:02:05.

going to charge ahead the whole of the south-west and indeed the rest

:02:06.:02:08.

of the country, the supply chain extends to all part of the United

:02:09.:02:12.

Kingdom, and my honourable friend. The coaster will also be a

:02:13.:02:18.

beneficiary in this. It requires an upgrade in terms of local

:02:19.:02:21.

infrastructure and I will respond to the LEP on that. I had a positive

:02:22.:02:27.

conversation with the Somerset Chamber of Commerce earlier this

:02:28.:02:31.

week, who were very clear that the benefits of what was then the

:02:32.:02:36.

proposal would be considerable, game changing, for some. He will be aware

:02:37.:02:43.

that Britain's two most respected economy and finance publications,

:02:44.:02:46.

the financial Times and the Economist, have come out strongly

:02:47.:02:50.

against Hinkley C on value for money and energy grounds, with the

:02:51.:02:55.

Economist describing it last month as a white elephant before it is

:02:56.:02:59.

even built. Can he confirmed that nothing he has announced today is an

:03:00.:03:03.

improvement on the dreadful deal negotiated by the former Chancellor

:03:04.:03:06.

on guaranteed price, absolutely dreadful. I don't agree with the

:03:07.:03:11.

honourable gentleman, I think it is a good deal, it secures 70% of our

:03:12.:03:17.

energy into the future, and it is incumbent on him and his Honourable

:03:18.:03:23.

Friends to say that, given the 20% of nuclear capacity will be

:03:24.:03:25.

decommissioned over the next ten years, how will they replace it if

:03:26.:03:29.

they are not forward-looking and making positive decisions such as we

:03:30.:03:32.

have made? I welcome the statement which is good news for the energy

:03:33.:03:37.

sector and my constituents in Bradwell on Sea. Can I assure him

:03:38.:03:43.

that my constituents welcome the prospect of Chinese investment in

:03:44.:03:46.

the Maldon district where there has been a long history of nuclear power

:03:47.:03:49.

generation and does he agree that any future power station will be

:03:50.:03:55.

regulated by the UK inspectorate, staffed by British employees, and

:03:56.:04:00.

that the security evaluation centre which has technology supplied by

:04:01.:04:09.

Huawei set a good precedent for any security concerns? He is absolutely

:04:10.:04:14.

right and it seems to me important that we welcome overseas investment

:04:15.:04:18.

but that we should have a regime and set of powers that other advanced

:04:19.:04:21.

economies benefit from, that is something that I think countries

:04:22.:04:28.

would expect to have and that is what we will have as a result of

:04:29.:04:33.

these changes. Having pressed the pause button, why is the Secretary

:04:34.:04:37.

of State now pressing the fast forward button? Doesn't he recognise

:04:38.:04:41.

that the project does not represent value for money as the FT have

:04:42.:04:46.

pointed out? Does he accept the cost to consumers has gone from six to 30

:04:47.:04:50.

billion and that is now his Government are willing to put in

:04:51.:04:54.

public subsidy is something that they said under coalition would not

:04:55.:04:57.

happen, and this happening at a time when the cost of renewables is

:04:58.:05:03.

plummeting? Mr Speaker, I have said the construction cost is entirely

:05:04.:05:08.

financed by the private investors in this site, and again I think it is

:05:09.:05:12.

important that we do have a long-term consistent approach to

:05:13.:05:18.

energy policy, and I think insofar as this can be cross-party, that is

:05:19.:05:23.

beneficial. It is especially ironic that two Liberal Democrat Energy

:05:24.:05:26.

Secretary were closely involved in the negotiation of this deal, we

:05:27.:05:31.

have a different view already. Could my right honourable friend confirm

:05:32.:05:36.

that at the end of its life this new power plant well have generated the

:05:37.:05:41.

most expensive energy in the history of energy generation, and can he

:05:42.:05:44.

tell us whether he agrees with the National audit office that in its

:05:45.:05:48.

lifetime consumers will have ended up subsidising EDF to the tune of

:05:49.:05:53.

?30 billion, and can he tell us what will happen to the mountains of

:05:54.:05:56.

nuclear waste the plant will generate? What I would say is that

:05:57.:06:02.

the securing for 60 years of a reliable source of energy is a good

:06:03.:06:10.

investment in the future of stability for our energy supplies,

:06:11.:06:14.

and that is worth having. It is impossible to know what the

:06:15.:06:18.

alternatives would be during that time but we have seen a volatile

:06:19.:06:22.

energy prices. So Winston Churchill's principles on energy

:06:23.:06:25.

security was that diversity and diversity alone was the key. I think

:06:26.:06:31.

that is the right approach. When it comes to decommissioning, as I said

:06:32.:06:36.

in my earlier answer, this is provided for explicitly in the

:06:37.:06:42.

contract. EDF said that this will mean 1500 jobs at offices in Bristol

:06:43.:06:46.

as well as those associated with the plant, I am going down to Hinckley

:06:47.:06:50.

on Monday to discuss that, but these are incredibly

:06:51.:07:31.

expensive jobs given what we have heard about the deal. Does the

:07:32.:07:35.

Minister really think this is value for money and would it not be better

:07:36.:07:37.

spent investing in the renewable sector which would also mean jobs in

:07:38.:07:40.

the south-west? I do and I am confused as to the demeanour of the

:07:41.:07:43.

party opposite to it seemed in the rather confusing reply of the shadow

:07:44.:07:45.

Minister to be welcoming the project going ahead. Certainly the trade

:07:46.:07:48.

unions in the south-west and across the country, which I would imagine

:07:49.:07:50.

the honourable lady has been speaking to, are very positive. The

:07:51.:07:52.

National Secretary for energy for the GMB said giving the thumbs up to

:07:53.:07:55.

Hinckley is vital to fill the great hole in the UK's energy supply of

:07:56.:07:58.

the TUC has welcomed this. When she goes back to her constituency this

:07:59.:08:00.

weekend she might talk to some of the union to some of the unions who

:08:01.:08:03.

are delighted on behalf of Frances O'Grady of the TUC has welcomed

:08:04.:08:06.

this. When she goes back to her constituency this weekend she might

:08:07.:08:08.

talk to some of the unions who are delighted on behalf of their can I

:08:09.:08:11.

welcome this announcement that it brings ?465 million of contracts to

:08:12.:08:13.

south-west businesses and a 4 billion boost to the south-west

:08:14.:08:15.

fleet of nuclear power stations from the 1960s and 70s that will close

:08:16.:08:18.

over the next ten years and these decisions are not a bad either all,

:08:19.:08:21.

we need both. That is why long-term planning is essential. We have would

:08:22.:08:23.

the Minister agree that we have to look at these decisions in context

:08:24.:08:26.

and the fact that we have a fleet of nuclear power stations from the

:08:27.:08:29.

1960s and 70s that will close over the next ten years and these

:08:30.:08:31.

decisions are not about either all, we need both. That is why long-term

:08:32.:08:33.

planning is essential. EDF my constituency has an acute

:08:34.:08:46.

power station which will hopefully be built in the future which is

:08:47.:08:49.

important for economic development, can he assure me that the future

:08:50.:08:53.

renewable programme will not be beset by delay after delay after

:08:54.:08:58.

delay? One of the reasons we are so keen to inaugurate this new

:08:59.:09:02.

programme nuclear engineering in this country is to be able to

:09:03.:09:07.

replace the nuclear power stations that are being decommissioned. To

:09:08.:09:11.

build inconsistencies like hers on the skills that can make a valuable

:09:12.:09:16.

contribution to local life and the National economy. I welcome the

:09:17.:09:25.

building of the new fleet of nuclear power stations, the opportunity

:09:26.:09:29.

provides for British manufacturing, will my right honourable friend do

:09:30.:09:33.

what he can to ensure that in these deals, we will have the best of

:09:34.:09:34.

British? 64% of the value by content will be

:09:35.:09:53.

spent with UK companies which shows the tangible benefits to the whole

:09:54.:09:56.

economy of this programme. The minister said that the Hinkley

:09:57.:10:01.

decision wouldn't burden the national balance sheet. Would he

:10:02.:10:06.

clarify the status of the offer made by the previous Chancellor of the

:10:07.:10:10.

Exchequer to give EDF a Treasury guarantee of ?2 billion to

:10:11.:10:14.

supplement the company's liquidity. An offer that puts the taxpayer at

:10:15.:10:21.

risk? I am delighted to answer that question. EDF have confirmed to me

:10:22.:10:25.

they will not be taking up that ?2 billion guarantee so that the

:10:26.:10:29.

taxpayer is fully in selected from the costs of construction. I welcome

:10:30.:10:36.

his statement today and will he confirm that he will continue to

:10:37.:10:41.

work with businesses to make sure we build on this nuclear partnership to

:10:42.:10:46.

attract future investment in the UK? I will indeed. We do want to have

:10:47.:10:54.

good investment opportunities for countries around the world and

:10:55.:10:59.

China, across the United Kingdom, has been viable source of investment

:11:00.:11:07.

and it is important we build on it. In light of the announcement today,

:11:08.:11:10.

is the Secretary of State now admitting that when the government

:11:11.:11:13.

entered into the original contract, they failed to protect national

:11:14.:11:18.

security and critical infrastructure? What I would say to

:11:19.:11:23.

the honourable lady, despite the injunction of her colleague on the

:11:24.:11:26.

front bench is that taking the opportunity to seriously review

:11:27.:11:30.

before signatures were given, has allowed us to improve the security

:11:31.:11:36.

of the arrangements. That seems to be a good thing that I hope she will

:11:37.:11:42.

welcome. The Secretary of State is right to point out that nuclear

:11:43.:11:47.

energy provides a valuable part of UK's energy security but that is

:11:48.:11:50.

only provided we have the fuel to put in them. The fuel for the UK

:11:51.:11:54.

reactors are made in my constituency, Candy Secretary of

:11:55.:11:58.

State assure me that efforts will be made to ensure that nuclear fuel

:11:59.:12:05.

reactors from the UK will be made from UK fuel? I will visit his

:12:06.:12:12.

constituency to see myself the production. I very much welcome the

:12:13.:12:18.

review but I have to say I am astonished that the review of the

:12:19.:12:20.

strike price was not part of that, which will rise to ?120 megawatt per

:12:21.:12:30.

hour rising with inflation. Can I ask if a serious examination of the

:12:31.:12:34.

cost for Bill payers was part of the review? Of course, Mr Speaker, we

:12:35.:12:40.

looked at every component part. For a new nuclear power station, the

:12:41.:12:44.

first for a generation in this country come to have it constructed

:12:45.:12:47.

at no risk to the taxpayer or the bill payer is a considerable

:12:48.:12:52.

achievement. It represents good value. This is good news for my

:12:53.:12:59.

constituency as it means we will have a third nuclear power station

:13:00.:13:03.

built, good news travels fast. I have at the local radio station

:13:04.:13:08.

desperate to get an interview and to congratulate the Secretary of State

:13:09.:13:13.

on the hard work he has done for my constituency. Could we meet together

:13:14.:13:17.

shortly to have a meeting to speed up the five proposed reactions --

:13:18.:13:25.

reactors in the future? I would be very happy to meet my honourable

:13:26.:13:28.

friend and I considered the invitation accept it. Mr Speaker, we

:13:29.:13:37.

have an excellent Secretary of State and he has made a very full

:13:38.:13:45.

statement. But, he gave details to the opposition spokesman and the SNP

:13:46.:13:51.

statement but he also gave it in advance to the BBC. I read all of

:13:52.:13:55.

this on the BBC website. That is not how this house works. It may be that

:13:56.:14:02.

spin doctors are still prevalent in departments, that has got to stop.

:14:03.:14:06.

The house has to be informed first. And would-be secretary agreed that

:14:07.:14:09.

that is the convention of this house? I understand the point he

:14:10.:14:15.

makes. I hope he will concede that I have come to the house at the

:14:16.:14:20.

earliest opportunity. Decisions like this have consequences for financial

:14:21.:14:25.

markets. It is the norm at the opening of the markets to disclose.

:14:26.:14:29.

He can be absolutely assured and I am sure he will accept this, that my

:14:30.:14:34.

sense of the possibility to this house is very clear in my mind. But

:14:35.:14:38.

we need to have an orderly conduct of business when it comes to

:14:39.:14:42.

important implications to the financial markets. Mr Speaker, I

:14:43.:14:50.

welcome the announcement on golden shares and I very much support what

:14:51.:14:53.

my right honourable friend the Wokingham said about the future for

:14:54.:14:58.

British investment, perhaps through a UK investment bank and UK pension

:14:59.:15:01.

funds. Can he confirm to me where the currency risk, but Italy on the

:15:02.:15:06.

subsidy payments in the future and out of the CFTs will arise? The

:15:07.:15:14.

contract is expressed in pounds. The construction risk is entirely with

:15:15.:15:23.

the investors. I welcome the long-term investment in low carbon

:15:24.:15:28.

energy and the 25,000 jobs this will create. Can the Secretary of State

:15:29.:15:34.

confirm EDF's admit to local jobs and small and medium-sized

:15:35.:15:39.

businesses in the supply chain such as James Fisher nuclear in my

:15:40.:15:44.

constituency? I am sure that particular firm will attest to that.

:15:45.:15:47.

The Somerset Chamber of Commerce one very clear that orders had already

:15:48.:15:54.

been placed during the period of preparation of the site and it has

:15:55.:16:01.

been beneficial to that county. Thank you Mr Speaker, this is

:16:02.:16:04.

obviously a massive infrastructure project and I welcome what he says

:16:05.:16:09.

about the opportunities for the UK supply chains and I hope that will

:16:10.:16:13.

extend to the steel industry and I would strongly urge the Secretary of

:16:14.:16:16.

State to get out and make the case that order of the steel used in this

:16:17.:16:21.

project should be British. Can I put in a particular plug for Corby.

:16:22.:16:28.

Which are of excellent quality I know. The commitment EDF have given

:16:29.:16:33.

me that 64% by value of the work will be with UK firms will be of

:16:34.:16:37.

particular benefit to firms such as the one he mentions and the supply

:16:38.:16:44.

chain across the country. I am grateful to be Secretary of State,

:16:45.:16:50.

point of order, Mr Andrew Small. In the last ten minutes, a consultation

:16:51.:16:55.

document has been published, I am grateful that it has been got for

:16:56.:17:04.

me. Camberwell mitigates court, there is no statement or other

:17:05.:17:07.

notice in relation to the closure. These things are often published

:17:08.:17:14.

late in the day, this is the court that serves 600,000 people in London

:17:15.:17:18.

and earlier in June this year was told we needed the extra capacity

:17:19.:17:21.

there. Should there not be an opportunity for members to raise

:17:22.:17:26.

these important issues locally in chamber by the time the house sits

:17:27.:17:29.

again, the consultation period will be more than half over. Should it

:17:30.:17:35.

not deal with members on a more courteous basis? Won the short

:17:36.:17:39.

answer is yes. It would be courteous if an announcement of this kind

:17:40.:17:44.

would have been made at an earlier point and not very shortly before

:17:45.:17:50.

the house ceases to sit with minimal opportunity for the honourable

:17:51.:17:53.

gentleman in Parliament returns to explore the matter. What I would

:17:54.:17:57.

suggest to him is that he used the remaining time he has today to look

:17:58.:18:03.

at options for asking parliamentary questions or to schedule a debate on

:18:04.:18:07.

this important matter. He would have every prospect of securing a debate.

:18:08.:18:11.

Although it would be at a later point than he would wish, I guess it

:18:12.:18:16.

would be better than nothing. But I think ministers will take account of

:18:17.:18:19.

what he says. This can be a concern felt by members on both sides of the

:18:20.:18:25.

house. And it isn't clever, I think this is my point, it is not clever

:18:26.:18:30.

when ministers behave in this way. If it is done without malice or

:18:31.:18:35.

forethought then it is simply thoughtless. If it is done on the

:18:36.:18:41.

basis of knowing that it will disadvantage or inconvenience a

:18:42.:18:45.

member it is rank inconsiderate and disrespectful. Merely to the member

:18:46.:18:49.

at at least as importantly, to his constituents. Point of order. Mr

:18:50.:18:57.

Speaker, you will be aware this house has increasingly discussed the

:18:58.:19:03.

planned cuts to social housing. In an opposition Day debate, called by

:19:04.:19:09.

myself on the 20th of July, the government pledged to look again at

:19:10.:19:15.

plans to cap local housing allowance and at the 1% housing benefit cut

:19:16.:19:19.

that would also affect supported housing. Today, the government has

:19:20.:19:23.

announced by written statement that they intend to defer the decision on

:19:24.:19:30.

the LH a cap until 2019 but will be going ahead with the cut to

:19:31.:19:34.

supported housing providers from next April. Is it not an affront to

:19:35.:19:39.

this house Mr Speaker and to all members of this house, who have

:19:40.:19:43.

expressed their concerns about these plans, for the Minister not to come

:19:44.:19:47.

to this place with an oral statement, sticking it out yet

:19:48.:19:52.

again, the day before our recess commences? Is it also not an insult

:19:53.:19:58.

to the tens of thousands of vulnerable people, women who have

:19:59.:20:01.

suffered domestic violence, older people, disabled people, former

:20:02.:20:07.

veterans, yet again been plunged into uncertainty and insecurity. Mr

:20:08.:20:11.

Speaker, I seek your guidance on how members on all sides of the house

:20:12.:20:16.

can hold this government and their executive to account and question

:20:17.:20:21.

the Minister on this proposal is in person and in detail? Won I am

:20:22.:20:25.

grateful for the point of order, I can entirely understand the

:20:26.:20:28.

disappointment and irritation about this matter. I hope it will be

:20:29.:20:33.

possible when we return from the conference recess for this matter to

:20:34.:20:37.

be explored on the floor of the house. There are a number of

:20:38.:20:41.

possibilities in that regard. It is a matter of judgment for the

:20:42.:20:44.

government whether a ministerial statement should be made orally or

:20:45.:20:49.

in writing. While I understand her view of this matter, I would just

:20:50.:20:56.

mention that there were two oral statements today as well as business

:20:57.:20:59.

questions. I have no way of knowing what exchanges took place within the

:21:00.:21:03.

government but it is by no means unknown for a minister to want or to

:21:04.:21:09.

be prepared to make an oral statement but to be prevented from

:21:10.:21:14.

doing so because of competing priorities. I have no idea whether

:21:15.:21:18.

that is the case in this instance, I would simply say in response to her

:21:19.:21:21.

request for guidance that she can pursue the matter on the conventions

:21:22.:21:29.

for questions in October, I appreciate this is a considerable

:21:30.:21:32.

time away but it is one possibility. There are other forms of question

:21:33.:21:36.

that can take place in because of the day, as she knows and it is open

:21:37.:21:40.

to the opposition to choose this matter for debate on a future

:21:41.:21:45.

opposition day. If she does find a way to pursue the matter in as far

:21:46.:21:49.

as it is proper and the chair will be her friend in that process and

:21:50.:21:52.

meanwhile, she has at least put her concern and extreme dissatisfaction

:21:53.:21:58.

on the record. Point of order Mr John Healey. Further to that point

:21:59.:22:02.

of order and I am grateful for the remarks he made to the house, were

:22:03.:22:06.

you given any indication that ministers were considering an oral

:22:07.:22:09.

statement on the consequences of their cuts to housing benefits for

:22:10.:22:14.

many thousands of vulnerable people in supported housing. This written

:22:15.:22:18.

statement we have had instead raises more questions than it answers. The

:22:19.:22:22.

policy is delayed but the cuts will go ahead. There is no figure on the

:22:23.:22:27.

new funding pledge but the budget scored the so-called savings at ?990

:22:28.:22:32.

million. And the new fund the ministers promised is similar to

:22:33.:22:36.

that which has been cut in half the supported peoples fund by more than

:22:37.:22:45.

half since 2010. The announcement was smuggled out in the small print

:22:46.:22:48.

of the Autumn Statement, the announcement today is very in the

:22:49.:22:54.

small print of a long written ministerial statement. What help can

:22:55.:22:58.

you Mr Speaker give the house to make sure that ministers are

:22:59.:23:01.

properly held to account for the assertions in this house? If there

:23:02.:23:07.

has been no opportunity to explore the matter in the chamber, before

:23:08.:23:12.

the recess, and we return in October, there would be an early

:23:13.:23:18.

opportunity at that point. I have already referenced one of those

:23:19.:23:22.

opportunities which has already provided for in the known timetable

:23:23.:23:27.

of oral questions. If it is felt strongly by a member or possibly by

:23:28.:23:34.

a number of members, that the matter warrants a more thorough scrutiny

:23:35.:23:40.

than a couple of questions at monthly questions would allow, I

:23:41.:23:46.

would certainly be open to that possibility. The Right Honourable

:23:47.:23:50.

gentleman asks me if I have had any indication that ministers have been

:23:51.:23:53.

planning to make an oral statement on this matter, and I must answer

:23:54.:24:01.

that, no. I have received no such notification but in fairness, it is

:24:02.:24:05.

not unreasonable for me to observe that absence of evidence does not

:24:06.:24:10.

constitute evidence of absence. We will leave it there for now. I will

:24:11.:24:15.

come, I am saving him up. Point of order Mr Jim Fitzpatrick.

:24:16.:24:22.

We 19% of our electricity generated by nuclear power. If we don't renew

:24:23.:24:27.

it it will fall to 2% by 2030. It is prudent to get on with replacing

:24:28.:24:32.

last week I stated baritones of a Stanley are responsible for the

:24:33.:24:38.

decision not to Morgan Stanley are responsible for the decision provide

:24:39.:24:43.

fixed electrical power cruise ships. I have apologised to Barrett and

:24:44.:24:46.

have written to Morgan Stanley and am grateful for the opportunity to

:24:47.:24:50.

set the record straight. I thank the honourable gentleman, he has set the

:24:51.:24:53.

record straight and has done so with the courtesy for which he is

:24:54.:24:58.

renowned in all parts of the hounds cruise ships. I have apologised to

:24:59.:25:00.

Barrett and have written to Morgan Stanley and am grateful for the

:25:01.:25:03.

opportunity to set the record straight. I thank the honourable

:25:04.:25:04.

gentleman, you set the record straight and has done so with the

:25:05.:25:07.

courtesy for which he is renowned in all parts of the Mr Speaker, you may

:25:08.:25:11.

be aware that in July the person who is now the Secretary for exiting the

:25:12.:25:13.

European on September nine, the Prime Minister would have triggered

:25:14.:25:16.

a large round of global trade deals with our most favourable trade

:25:17.:25:20.

partners. Do you think, bearing in mind there was no statement on the

:25:21.:25:25.

9th of September, that in fact this should be facilitated so that he

:25:26.:25:28.

could come to the House to set out what progress has been made on those

:25:29.:25:32.

trade deals, perhaps lists the countries with whom they have been

:25:33.:25:36.

initiated, and if he could deliver on the timescale he promised which

:25:37.:25:41.

would be completed between the next 12 and 24 months. I am not sure

:25:42.:25:48.

there is any mechanism for securing satisfaction for the honourable

:25:49.:25:52.

gentleman today. It may be that the right honourable gentleman, whom I

:25:53.:25:59.

think he has in mind, the Secretary of State for exiting the European

:26:00.:26:02.

Union, would be enthusiastic beyond words about the possibility of

:26:03.:26:09.

appearing before the House and engaging with and responding to the

:26:10.:26:13.

honourable gentleman but I think the backbench business committee, under

:26:14.:26:16.

whose auspices two debates are about to take place, may take a different

:26:17.:26:21.

view. I know that he is an eager and assiduous member of Parliament. I

:26:22.:26:26.

think it unlikely that he will spend all of the conference recess

:26:27.:26:30.

reflecting on this matter, it would be a bit sad if he were to do so,

:26:31.:26:35.

but if he comes back in October and remains similarly vexed and anxious

:26:36.:26:41.

for clarity, then I hope he will use the mechanisms that are available to

:26:42.:26:45.

him. I think we had better leave it there for now, we have had a

:26:46.:26:49.

considerable feast of points of order today and we move now to the

:26:50.:26:54.

presentation of the bill with the secretary Jeremy Hunt.

:26:55.:26:59.

Health service medical supplies costs Bill, second reading, what

:27:00.:27:04.

day? Monday the 10th of October. Thank you. Colleagues, we come to

:27:05.:27:10.

the first of our two backbench business committee inspired debates

:27:11.:27:13.

and therefore to the motion on domestic abuse victims in family law

:27:14.:27:19.

courts. To move the motion, I call Angela Smith. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:27:20.:27:29.

I beg to move the motion as on the order paper, domestic abuse victims

:27:30.:27:32.

in family courts. Can I make clear at the beginning that I will only

:27:33.:27:37.

take two interventions at the most because of the heavily subscribed

:27:38.:27:41.

nature of this debate, and I want people to have the time to speak.

:27:42.:27:46.

The debate today isn't really about courts and laws and statutory

:27:47.:27:51.

agencies. This debate is about children. Or rather it is about

:27:52.:27:56.

children whose mothers have been subject to domestic abuse and who

:27:57.:28:00.

themselves have become victims of violent and coercive fathers. This

:28:01.:28:06.

debate in particular is about the 19 children who have died at the hands

:28:07.:28:10.

of their fathers over the last ten years. All of whom had access to

:28:11.:28:15.

their children through formal or informal child contact arrangements.

:28:16.:28:20.

With the goodwill of the House, I want to dedicate the first part of

:28:21.:28:26.

my speech to telling the story of Clive Russell, my constituent. Bear

:28:27.:28:34.

with me. -- Claire Russell. It had just 15 minutes in October 2014 for

:28:35.:28:40.

my life and heart to be broken completely beyond repair. I had

:28:41.:28:45.

warned those involved with my case that my happy, funny boys would be

:28:46.:28:48.

killed by their own father. I was right. My boys were both with their

:28:49.:28:56.

father on that October day, and, at around 6:30pm, he enticed Paul and

:28:57.:29:04.

jack up into the attic with the promise of trains and track to build

:29:05.:29:08.

a model railway. When the boys were in the attic, he lit 16 separate

:29:09.:29:17.

fires around the House, which he had barricaded. So my sons could not get

:29:18.:29:22.

out and the firemen could not get in. Only 15 minutes later, the

:29:23.:29:29.

doorbell rang at my mums. We were staying there temporarily after the

:29:30.:29:33.

separation. It is the boys, they must be early, my mum said, but I

:29:34.:29:38.

knew that was not right. The boys would have run into the House and

:29:39.:29:43.

straight into my arms. They always did after a visit to their dad, I

:29:44.:29:48.

they were frightened of him, he was a perpetrator of domestic abuse. The

:29:49.:29:53.

agencies involved in our case knew this. I opened the door, blue lights

:29:54.:29:58.

were flashing. There has been an incident at your former home, the

:29:59.:30:02.

boys have been involved in a fire. Running into the hospital, the first

:30:03.:30:08.

thing I saw was Paul receiving CPR. Doctor drenched in sweat and

:30:09.:30:13.

exhausted told me they were withdrawing treatment. I held Paul

:30:14.:30:23.

in my arms. I begged him to try, to stay, he looked tunnelling, smiled,

:30:24.:30:35.

and the lies left his eyes. Then my boys were taken out of my arms and

:30:36.:30:41.

into another room. There was no further chants of touching him

:30:42.:30:44.

because his body was part of a serious crime inquiry. Detectives

:30:45.:30:54.

informed me my former husband was suspected of starting the fire and

:30:55.:30:58.

he had died. All this time I was not allowed to see Jack because they

:30:59.:31:01.

were still fighting to save him. Thankfully he never knew that Paul

:31:02.:31:06.

had died. He had tried to save his little brother. Police later

:31:07.:31:10.

disclosed that Jack was still conscious when carried out of the

:31:11.:31:15.

fire and told them, my dad did this, and he did it on purpose. This was

:31:16.:31:23.

taken as his dying testimony. Jack clung to life for five days but his

:31:24.:31:29.

battle was too big for him to fight, his body suffered 56% burns. He,

:31:30.:31:37.

too, died in my arms after suffering cardiac arrest due to the horrific

:31:38.:31:40.

injuries. That is Claire's heartbreaking story

:31:41.:31:55.

but I wanted it on Parliamentary record and now, thank God, it is. It

:31:56.:32:00.

is the testimony of these stories, heard in this chamber, that will

:32:01.:32:10.

engineer the changes we need to think to make sure this does not

:32:11.:32:17.

become another mother's story. Before I move on, I want to pay

:32:18.:32:21.

tribute to Claire. In my 12 years as an MP I have never been asked to

:32:22.:32:28.

intervene in a case like this. No other case has touched me like this.

:32:29.:32:34.

No other constituent has impressed me so much with her bravery and

:32:35.:32:41.

determination to secure something positive out of something so

:32:42.:32:45.

dreadful and I want to pay tribute to the people of Penistone who

:32:46.:32:49.

responded magnificently to her tragedy. Claire's husband cancelled

:32:50.:32:52.

the insurance on the property before you set it on fire. He also did

:32:53.:32:57.

other things I will not go into that effectively left her penniless and

:32:58.:33:03.

without a home. The people of Penistone, led by our wonderful

:33:04.:33:07.

vicar at Saint John's Church, rallied around, raising money to buy

:33:08.:33:09.

somewhere for her to live and pulling together to make her new

:33:10.:33:17.

house into a home. In black, dreadful times, such things matter,

:33:18.:33:24.

and I am incredibly proud of the people I represent in this close,

:33:25.:33:28.

warm-hearted community. Onto the changes that are critical

:33:29.:33:31.

if we are to make sure this never happens again, on to what we need to

:33:32.:33:37.

do to secure Claire's legacy and a legacy for her children, Paul and

:33:38.:33:42.

Jack. The women's aid report I have referred to, 19 child homicide, was

:33:43.:33:46.

published earlier this year, in response to the failure of the

:33:47.:33:52.

family courts to embed in their practice the culture of putting

:33:53.:33:55.

children first... I thank her for giving way, on the

:33:56.:33:58.

point about family Court I think there should be an urgent review

:33:59.:34:03.

because often people giving evidence are not protected by basing their

:34:04.:34:07.

accuser but more importantly a constituent of mine was actually in

:34:08.:34:13.

hospital, a victim of domestic abuse, the abuser got custody of her

:34:14.:34:17.

children, she was not represented in the court, that is one of the

:34:18.:34:21.

reasons I say we need an urgent review of Family Court practices. I

:34:22.:34:25.

completely agree with my honourable friend, and all of this is despite

:34:26.:34:30.

the fact, in 2004, a legal framework and the accompanying guidance was

:34:31.:34:35.

produced to ensure they did so. That legal framework itself was a

:34:36.:34:40.

response to an earlier report by Womens Aid, 29 child homicides, and

:34:41.:34:45.

at its heart was a recognition that the courts needed to develop a new

:34:46.:34:48.

culture of putting children first. The accompanying practice 20 job

:34:49.:34:55.

requires courts to ensure that where domestic abuse has occurred, any

:34:56.:34:59.

child arrangements ordered protect the safety and well-being of the

:35:00.:35:04.

child and the parent with care and are in the best interests of the

:35:05.:35:09.

child. In addition, in 2015, a new criminal offence of controlling all

:35:10.:35:14.

coercive behaviour in an intimate or family relationship was introduced.

:35:15.:35:20.

Practice 12 itself was amended to reflect this wider definition of

:35:21.:35:24.

domestic abuse. Two developments which are potentially big steps

:35:25.:35:30.

forward. My honourable friend is making an

:35:31.:35:33.

incredibly powerful speech. I have been struck by the number of

:35:34.:35:37.

constituents and other people I have met through my work who have said

:35:38.:35:41.

that as victims, when they have gone to the courts, including Family

:35:42.:35:44.

Court, they have felt they have not been believed and that those who are

:35:45.:35:49.

involved in the judiciary don't fully understand the patterns of

:35:50.:35:53.

domestic abuse and what to believe and who to believe in the courts.

:35:54.:35:58.

Will she agree with me that there is a very important part of this as

:35:59.:36:01.

well which is the training of the cherished -- the judiciary and

:36:02.:36:06.

updating the training to reflect the law. I think, where I want to go to

:36:07.:36:15.

now, is to ask a few questions. What are the limits of the family Court

:36:16.:36:19.

given the tools at their disposal? Why is it breathing so difficult for

:36:20.:36:24.

family courts to tackle this issue? Why is it so hard to put children

:36:25.:36:29.

first? I would suggest, Madam Deputy Speaker, that there are two major

:36:30.:36:33.

reasons. First of all, the ongoing assumption that men who are abusive

:36:34.:36:37.

towards women can nevertheless be good fathers. This relief, this

:36:38.:36:44.

myth, is unbelievably enduring and fires in the face of the evidence.

:36:45.:36:50.

Research indicates that there are many serious and negative impacts

:36:51.:36:52.

for children arriving from domestic abuse. Including children becoming

:36:53.:36:59.

aggressive or conversely over compliant, all becoming withdrawn,

:37:00.:37:04.

anxious and fearful. One study also found that over 34% of under 18 's

:37:05.:37:09.

who had lived with domestic violence had also been abused or neglected by

:37:10.:37:13.

a parent or guardian and I don't see why that should surprise anyone, I

:37:14.:37:19.

really don't see why. Surely, Madam Deputy Speaker, this outdated and

:37:20.:37:23.

discredited way of thinking has no place in our Family Court? Given the

:37:24.:37:27.

ongoing incidents of violence against children and the frequent

:37:28.:37:31.

link with domestic abuse, we need to effectively eradicate this cultural

:37:32.:37:35.

legacy from our Family Court. The second reason I believe is this

:37:36.:37:44.

ongoing failure on the part of the statutory agencies and the Family

:37:45.:37:47.

Court judiciary to understand that domestic abuse frequently involves

:37:48.:37:50.

coercive control. Abuse is about power and control. That is why it is

:37:51.:37:55.

not surprising that fathers who beat up women can also abuse children as

:37:56.:37:57.

well. Physical injury is not the only

:37:58.:38:15.

manifestation of abuse. This is where when separation occurs and a

:38:16.:38:19.

woman removes herself and her children from an intolerable

:38:20.:38:21.

situation, the abusive parent frequently uses family court

:38:22.:38:27.

proceedings as a means of attempting to control and coerce. This brings

:38:28.:38:32.

me back to Claire's story. Her reviews exercised the ultimate

:38:33.:38:40.

control over Claire. Not only did he dragged her to the family court for

:38:41.:38:44.

access to his children, unsupervised access, he went on to murder her

:38:45.:38:49.

children. And in doing that, he has, with one awful heartbreaking

:38:50.:38:55.

criminal act exercised control over Claire for the rest of her life.

:38:56.:39:01.

That should give us pause for thought. Never again will Claire's

:39:02.:39:07.

life either same as her two boys have gone. And we all feel her pain.

:39:08.:39:14.

And we have a duty to act. That is why I have worked with women's aid

:39:15.:39:20.

and many other MPs for this debate day, I pay tribute to women's aid to

:39:21.:39:27.

the work they have done and we have had reports on domestic violence

:39:28.:39:29.

that reflects on what needs to be done. I have not time to go through

:39:30.:39:35.

the recommendations in detail recommended in the report but

:39:36.:39:39.

suffice it to say, they wish to put children first and properly

:39:40.:39:44.

implement a legal framework of practice 12 including the

:39:45.:39:46.

professional training of court staff and the judiciary, as my honourable

:39:47.:39:51.

friend mentioned. An independent Asheville oversight of the increment

:39:52.:39:58.

Asian practice 12. They also include practical measures including

:39:59.:39:59.

designated safe waiting rooms for vulnerable witnesses and separate

:40:00.:40:05.

entrance and exit times. And we all want to see reform of the

:40:06.:40:09.

government's legal aid changes to ensure that representation in the

:40:10.:40:14.

family courts the adequate and sufficient to avoid the current

:40:15.:40:17.

situation which sees abused women cross-examined by their abusers. I

:40:18.:40:23.

note the minister, who has written to me separately, has indicated that

:40:24.:40:28.

the president of the family division has asked Mr Justice, to review

:40:29.:40:34.

practice 12 to see if amendments are needed but we need more than that.

:40:35.:40:39.

The public needs more than that. Indicated by the 38 degrees

:40:40.:40:42.

petition, signed by over 33,000 people. We need to see the Ministry

:40:43.:40:48.

of Justice take action to ensure the legal framework is Rob Elliot

:40:49.:40:53.

implemented. We need to see practical changes to the way the

:40:54.:40:58.

courts work. We need to see resources dedicated to ensuring

:40:59.:41:01.

professional training for court staff and the judiciary. And we need

:41:02.:41:05.

to see the government indicating that it will do all that is

:41:06.:41:10.

necessary to improve the relationships and information

:41:11.:41:13.

sharing between statutory agencies and between those agencies and the

:41:14.:41:19.

family courts. There is a huge delay in Claire's case, Paul and Jack's

:41:20.:41:25.

case. Above all else, for Claire's sake and the sake of all of

:41:26.:41:29.

vulnerable women, we need the government to send out a very clear

:41:30.:41:34.

message, by agreeing to act on today's motion, the government will

:41:35.:41:37.

be sending out a clear message that domestic abuse will be tackled. And

:41:38.:41:44.

that it will be dealt with in all its forms. And that we will not

:41:45.:41:47.

allow our children to be harmed by it. Madam Deputy Speaker, Jack and

:41:48.:41:56.

Paul must not ever be forgotten. Claire wanted their names to be used

:41:57.:42:01.

in a serious case review but the authorities refused. Referring to

:42:02.:42:08.

refer to them as Pete two. Jack and Paul were not Pete two. They were

:42:09.:42:15.

dearly loved boys whose lives were snatched away from them by their

:42:16.:42:20.

violent father. Let us make sure today that Jack and Paul will never

:42:21.:42:26.

be forgotten. Please support the motion on the order paper. The

:42:27.:42:31.

question on the order paper, before I call the next big, I do not want a

:42:32.:42:34.

time limit on this debate but we want to be on the next debate at

:42:35.:42:40.

3:30pm so if frontbenchers have ten minutes including interventions, we

:42:41.:42:45.

will easily get everybody in. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker and I would

:42:46.:42:53.

like to thank the honourable member for whose power. And has set the

:42:54.:42:57.

context for this bait. And to thank the bank that should bash

:42:58.:43:00.

micro-backbench committee for granting the debate and women's aid,

:43:01.:43:09.

championing the rights of victims of domestic violence. We have very

:43:10.:43:15.

disturbing findings indeed and the government and the judiciary have to

:43:16.:43:21.

listen and they have to act. Every single recommendation in this report

:43:22.:43:25.

needs to be considered. Further child deaths like the tragic case we

:43:26.:43:29.

have just heard about have to be prevented. And the courts made to

:43:30.:43:34.

challenge themselves about their current attitude, their culture and

:43:35.:43:38.

their practice in all the mess the violence cases. We have to be clear

:43:39.:43:44.

that there is priority given to tackling domestic abuse. And I think

:43:45.:43:50.

we have a government that feels that that is a priority. And they have

:43:51.:43:55.

acted, not just spoken. Coercive control is now a new offence in the

:43:56.:44:01.

serious crime act of 2015. It is important that as recommended in the

:44:02.:44:05.

report we are discussing today, that all members of the family court,

:44:06.:44:10.

judiciary and others have specialist training to understand the reality

:44:11.:44:19.

of what that new law means. Does the honourable lady agree that sometimes

:44:20.:44:21.

family courts mistake persistence from fathers over access, going

:44:22.:44:28.

through the courts time and again as an interest in their children rather

:44:29.:44:35.

than an intimidation and bullying of their previous partner?

:44:36.:44:38.

Frighteningly, in the case of my constituency, I have had a worker

:44:39.:44:42.

actually say to children, who are afraid of their father and didn't

:44:43.:44:46.

want to visit, that if they didn't go, their mother would be in deep

:44:47.:44:49.

trouble and therefore they had to go and see their father. That is

:44:50.:44:54.

shocking behaviour from any professional. She makes a powerful

:44:55.:44:59.

point and she is right to pick up on the complexities of coercive

:45:00.:45:03.

control, none of us can underestimate how difficult it will

:45:04.:45:06.

be for professionals to truly understand the complexities of this

:45:07.:45:10.

behaviour. But they must understand it to make sure that the law that is

:45:11.:45:14.

already in place is put into practice. Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:45:15.:45:19.

know the house has also thought very long and hard about other ways the

:45:20.:45:26.

government has shown its commitment to tackling domestic violence.

:45:27.:45:30.

Particular you through the convention that sets out a clear

:45:31.:45:34.

commitment to attacking domestic violence through legislation,

:45:35.:45:39.

training and awareness campaigns. I applaud them for the fact they have

:45:40.:45:47.

signed it, but can the Minister, in his or her, whichever minister is

:45:48.:45:53.

reply, in their response today, clarify when the assembled

:45:54.:45:57.

convention will be ratified? Not only by the UK but other countries

:45:58.:46:02.

like Germany, Norway, Ireland, who are still while signatories, not

:46:03.:46:05.

ratifying that treaty. It is an important statement about the fact

:46:06.:46:11.

that combating violence against women and domestic violence needs to

:46:12.:46:15.

be on all government agendas, we need that ratification as a way of

:46:16.:46:19.

ensuring that message is sent out not just to embers of the Council of

:46:20.:46:23.

Europe but two other nonmembers as well. To tackle domestic abuse we

:46:24.:46:27.

need victims to feel confident in our legal system. That reports that

:46:28.:46:32.

are made will be taken successfully to prosecution. That those who have

:46:33.:46:39.

been abused feel safe in doing that. That is why in my contribution to

:46:40.:46:43.

the debate, I want to make two specific points. First, that the

:46:44.:46:51.

government needs to be clear, or perhaps in the debate today,

:46:52.:46:53.

reiterate its support for the fact that legal aid for victims of

:46:54.:46:57.

domestic abuse, child abuse, is still in place. And that perhaps the

:46:58.:47:05.

Minister can update us on the work they are doing in this area. And

:47:06.:47:11.

particularly around the domestic violence gateway where victims are

:47:12.:47:15.

required to provide objective evidence of abuse to be able to

:47:16.:47:20.

qualify for legal aid. I think Madam Deputy Speaker, the government have

:47:21.:47:24.

made their intention in this area very clear in terms of the support

:47:25.:47:29.

that should be there but in practice, some women have found it

:47:30.:47:33.

difficult to have the prescribed forms of evidence that are required

:47:34.:47:40.

to access the gateway. To have that evidence in place. The Ministry of

:47:41.:47:44.

Justice has a review of the domestic violence gateway under way, perhaps

:47:45.:47:47.

the Minister can say more about where we are with that review.

:47:48.:47:54.

Because it is urgently needed. The all-party parliamentary group on

:47:55.:47:56.

domestic violence, which I am vice-chair and my honourable friend,

:47:57.:48:01.

the member for bone and yard -- Birmingham Yardley is the chair, I

:48:02.:48:07.

would like to draw the house's attention to our recent report

:48:08.:48:10.

following another parliamentary hearings with expert witnesses and

:48:11.:48:15.

individuals with personal experience in the family court system. In the

:48:16.:48:21.

evidence we heard, more victims are now being cross-examined by

:48:22.:48:24.

perpetrators of abuse in family court proceedings. Which can affect

:48:25.:48:28.

not just adults but children as well. Women's aid estimate that one

:48:29.:48:34.

in four women are specifically addressed by their perpetrator. It

:48:35.:48:41.

has to be right that victims should be protected when giving evidence in

:48:42.:48:45.

court. And that there can be few members in this place who are

:48:46.:48:49.

content with seeing alleged abusers cross examine those affected by

:48:50.:48:55.

domestic violence. This has to be examined and re-examined urgently

:48:56.:48:59.

and we need to put an end to survivors of domestic abuse being

:49:00.:49:03.

cross-examined by their alleged abusers in court. The second point I

:49:04.:49:08.

wanted to raise was regarding to special measures. It has already

:49:09.:49:12.

been mentioned in an intervention earlier on. In the all-party

:49:13.:49:17.

parliament regroup hearings we also heard evidence about the traumatic

:49:18.:49:23.

impact of a survivor of domestic abuse coming face to face with their

:49:24.:49:28.

perpetrator in court. Yet, half of all women who experienced domestic

:49:29.:49:33.

violence and the family court system have no specific protection measures

:49:34.:49:36.

available to them when they attend court. More than one in three, were,

:49:37.:49:41.

as a result were verbally or physically abused by their former

:49:42.:49:45.

partners while in court buildings. I find these figures quite shocking

:49:46.:49:50.

given the nature of the crimes we aren't talking about here. I welcome

:49:51.:49:57.

the Lord Chancellor's announcement today about the additional support

:49:58.:50:00.

put in place for vulnerable witnesses. My understanding is that

:50:01.:50:05.

victims of domestic abuse are treated as a vulnerable witnesses. I

:50:06.:50:09.

hope the Minister in his contribution today can confirm that

:50:10.:50:12.

those announcements, which are very welcome, including those who have

:50:13.:50:16.

suffered domestic abuse and violence. Specifically, an increase

:50:17.:50:21.

in the number of locations where victims and witnesses can give

:50:22.:50:28.

evidence remotely. And I think, even more welcome, the prerecording of

:50:29.:50:34.

evidence from 2017. These measures are a real step forward but we need

:50:35.:50:39.

to make sure they are not just available to some victims but to

:50:40.:50:44.

all. I am sure that members of the house will want to have those

:50:45.:50:47.

reassurances today because we need all of the family courts to give

:50:48.:50:51.

witnesses and victims the support they need. The other two areas of

:50:52.:50:58.

special measures in family court that are important are the ability

:50:59.:51:03.

for victims and witnesses to be able to have separate waiting rooms and

:51:04.:51:06.

to leave the court by separate exits, particular vital for those

:51:07.:51:18.

who might be living in refuges. I think the way that government would

:51:19.:51:24.

want to do so as well, we need to see an end to the cross-examination

:51:25.:51:29.

of survivors of domestic violence by the abusers, we need assurances that

:51:30.:51:33.

special measures are routinely available for family court

:51:34.:51:38.

proceedings. I thank her forgiving way, which he not agree with me that

:51:39.:51:42.

what is really required here is some form of witness protection scheme.

:51:43.:51:46.

We had a debate on this many years ago. I understand the point he is

:51:47.:51:53.

making, that might be appropriate in some cases. But many of the people

:51:54.:51:57.

who have spoken to me about this simply want these very basic

:51:58.:52:01.

measures in place. Wings that should be in place already but are not

:52:02.:52:04.

being given the priority they need. I know there is pressure on the

:52:05.:52:08.

court system and on budgets but we have to make sure the courts see

:52:09.:52:11.

this as a priority and at the moment, I think we would be forgiven

:52:12.:52:15.

for thinking that they are not seeing it as a priority. The third

:52:16.:52:19.

element is Robert training for family court staff, particularly on

:52:20.:52:22.

coercive behaviour as set out eloquently by the Honourable member

:52:23.:52:29.

for Bridgend. And finally, but not at all least, we need excellent risk

:52:30.:52:37.

assessment around cases where abuse is involved. We know this is a

:52:38.:52:41.

government that understands the problem, three months ago the police

:52:42.:52:47.

said to the peace commissioners that victims of abuse are still being let

:52:48.:52:51.

down. Improvements like the ones that have been announced today are

:52:52.:52:57.

welcome. The change in culture is still not complete. We need the Lord

:52:58.:53:00.

Chancellor, Minister on the bench today, my right honourable friend

:53:01.:53:04.

the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister to continue to put this

:53:05.:53:07.

issue at the top of the government agenda because we need to tackle

:53:08.:53:13.

domestic abuse and we need to tackle the kind of tragic cases that the

:53:14.:53:16.

Honourable lady started with today and I hope this debate will continue

:53:17.:53:21.

to put that at the top of the government agenda for the rest of

:53:22.:53:22.

this government. I want to thank her for bringing

:53:23.:53:37.

this debate and the campaigning around it because it is so necessary

:53:38.:53:42.

that people in here understand the reality of what is going on.

:53:43.:53:49.

I would like to thank Claire for being here, bravely, for having the

:53:50.:53:57.

courage to put her personal tragedy, which most of us could not endure,

:53:58.:54:02.

forward so that this can never ever happen to anybody else, and we will

:54:03.:54:10.

be letting her down... Surrey, Madam Deputy Speaker, we will be letting

:54:11.:54:14.

your sons down if we don't do that, and we will remember Jack and Paul.

:54:15.:54:22.

It is a simple but awful fact that women bear the brunt of violent

:54:23.:54:25.

crime in England and Wales. Whilst violent crime against men is

:54:26.:54:30.

falling, ONS crime statistics for England and Wales show that between

:54:31.:54:36.

2009 and 2014 violence against women perpetrated by someone they know

:54:37.:54:40.

increased rapidly. Alongside this dramatic rise in violence, services

:54:41.:54:45.

women rely on for escaping violence and abuse are disappearing. Between

:54:46.:54:50.

2010-12 as third of local authority funding for domestic and sexual

:54:51.:54:51.

violence services was cut and a third of referrals to refuges were

:54:52.:55:11.

turned away. It is also true that domestic violence have a higher rate

:55:12.:55:13.

of repeat victimisation than any other crime. On average a woman will

:55:14.:55:16.

endure violence 35 times before making her first quarter the police.

:55:17.:55:18.

Even once they have sought help and the case is going forwards, the

:55:19.:55:21.

women are often re-victimised and re-traumatised by their perpetrators

:55:22.:55:22.

through the prosecution process and in the family courts. One particular

:55:23.:55:26.

focus of this are the fights that ensued between the victim and

:55:27.:55:30.

perpetrator over contact the children and the consequences of the

:55:31.:55:34.

decision made. Sadly this is something that women in my

:55:35.:55:37.

constituency have suffered first-hand and I'm sure I'm not

:55:38.:55:41.

alone in that. Just one example, I could have picked many, constituent

:55:42.:55:44.

came to me with issues regarding custody and

:55:45.:56:05.

contact with her child. The father had been extremely abusive and these

:56:06.:56:08.

behaviours had been perpetuated by the father's parents. Unfortunately

:56:09.:56:10.

other legal issues on the part of the mother led to her losing custody

:56:11.:56:13.

of the child, who was placed in the care of the paternal grandparents.

:56:14.:56:15.

The mother was granted contact but this was at the home of the paternal

:56:16.:56:17.

grandparents, who had both facilitated and taken part in

:56:18.:56:19.

abusive behaviour. The trauma experienced by the mother in order

:56:20.:56:22.

to maintain a relationship with her child, as you can imagine, was

:56:23.:56:25.

extreme. The judge in this case failed to understand or show any

:56:26.:56:29.

appreciation of the dynamics of domestic abuse. This lack of

:56:30.:56:33.

understanding doesn't just re-victimised survivors, it causes

:56:34.:56:38.

direct harm to the children. The NSPCC report 20% of children in the

:56:39.:56:41.

UK have witnessed domestic abuse, and exposure causes anxiety, as well

:56:42.:56:51.

as learning disabilities. In 2015, it was reported that 62% of children

:56:52.:56:55.

in a household where there is domestic violence perpetrated are

:56:56.:57:00.

also directly harmed. How can our Family Courts fail to see the link

:57:01.:57:04.

between coercive, violent and controlling behaviour perpetrated by

:57:05.:57:07.

men towards women and the threat posed to the safety of children and

:57:08.:57:12.

that family? Thank you for giving way. Would she agree with me that

:57:13.:57:16.

there are many cases of domestic violence where the woman, perhaps

:57:17.:57:20.

because she has hopes of the relationship subsisting or maybe

:57:21.:57:26.

intimidation or other factors, doesn't press charges but it is

:57:27.:57:30.

important we still take into account those allegations made when it comes

:57:31.:57:34.

to the Family Courts? It is not just prosecution that should be taken

:57:35.:57:38.

seriously? I absolutely agree and one of the reasons I agree is that

:57:39.:57:42.

we need to be giving some of the responsibility for the way forward

:57:43.:57:46.

to the victims, whereas the court system seems to be taking everything

:57:47.:57:50.

away all the time and using evidence to penalised rather than support

:57:51.:57:59.

them. I say to the Minister, how is it that family courts can knowingly

:58:00.:58:02.

placed children directly in harms way? That is what is happening. The

:58:03.:58:05.

2015 women aid survey of survivors of domestic abuse who had

:58:06.:58:10.

experienced the Family Courts found 76% of respondents found the judge

:58:11.:58:14.

granted child contact with the father when they knew the children

:58:15.:58:18.

had witnessed domestic abuse. Even more terrifying, over 44% of

:58:19.:58:23.

survivors reported the judge granted child contact the father when they

:58:24.:58:27.

knew the children had been directly abused by the father. Will the

:58:28.:58:30.

Minister confirm to the House that there must not be an automatic

:58:31.:58:34.

assumption of shared parenting in child contact cases where domestic

:58:35.:58:39.

abuse is a feature but that child contact

:58:40.:59:01.

should be decided based on the informed judgment of what is in the

:59:02.:59:05.

best interests of that child? Furthermore will the Minister

:59:06.:59:07.

support Womens Aid 's recommendation that judges, staff in the Family

:59:08.:59:09.

Courts and other front line staff received specialist training on the

:59:10.:59:11.

impact of domestic abuse on children? Finally, it is important

:59:12.:59:13.

in this debate, as it is whenever this House debate violence and a

:59:14.:59:16.

survivor is forced to seek safety and face her abuser in court, the

:59:17.:59:18.

damage has already been done. Early intervention that support from the

:59:19.:59:20.

earliest possible age to recognise and develop positive and respectful

:59:21.:59:23.

relationships will prevent children growing up believing abuse and

:59:24.:59:25.

violent relationships are normal. It will teach boys and girls to respect

:59:26.:59:30.

themselves and others, that their body is their own and they must

:59:31.:59:34.

determine their own lives. Does the Minister therefore agreed that

:59:35.:59:39.

mandatory age-appropriate resilience education in schools is necessary to

:59:40.:59:45.

prevent domestic abuse and violence? Fundamentally, we ought to be trying

:59:46.:59:48.

to prevent this horrific crime from ever occurring. I would like to

:59:49.:59:56.

offer my congratulations to the honourable member for securing this

:59:57.:00:02.

debate and for the incredibly powerful, moving speech. It was a

:00:03.:00:06.

fantastic job to put that on record. I would like to congratulate Womens

:00:07.:00:13.

Aid as well for the sub battle-macro a hard-hitting report of 19 child

:00:14.:00:18.

homicides. It is difficult reading, it is always difficult to hear these

:00:19.:00:21.

examples but he had them we must because they show that domestic

:00:22.:00:28.

abuse is not just an issue, 19 real children have had their lives cut

:00:29.:00:32.

short, another two seriously harmed, three mothers killed, seven fathers

:00:33.:00:41.

who committed suicide and four fathers convicted and imprisoned.

:00:42.:00:44.

There are likely to be many more people directly touched by these

:00:45.:00:49.

tragic events, siblings, grandparents, surviving wives,

:00:50.:00:52.

family and friends. All of those men were known to agencies, 11 of the 12

:00:53.:00:57.

were known to the police as well. I have had a number of constituents

:00:58.:01:02.

approached me about their custody cases, with some mothers unhappy,

:01:03.:01:06.

some fathers feeling they have been treated badly and grandparents

:01:07.:01:07.

unable to get a look in. Whatever the rights and wrongs of

:01:08.:01:22.

those individual cases, it is clear the only thing that should be done,

:01:23.:01:25.

the right thing to do, is to put the child first, absolutely at the

:01:26.:01:27.

centre of decision-making. There are many good examples of good practice

:01:28.:01:29.

in Family Courts including my closest court in Croydon but there

:01:30.:01:32.

is much more that can be done and lessons to be learned. In a number

:01:33.:01:36.

of cases, there are protective screens, video links, separate

:01:37.:01:39.

waiting rooms and separate entrances are available where appropriate but,

:01:40.:01:43.

as we have heard, that does not always work. The Womens Aid report

:01:44.:01:47.

goes on to detail a survey that was done of people but have gone through

:01:48.:01:52.

the family court system pointing to areas of real concern, with 55% of

:01:53.:01:57.

women saying they had no access to any protection measures in the

:01:58.:02:02.

court. Extraordinarily, 25% had been cross-examined by their former

:02:03.:02:03.

partner during the court. Can you imagine

:02:04.:02:23.

what that poor lady must have been going through, revisiting all of

:02:24.:02:25.

that again? 39% were verbally or physically abused by their former

:02:26.:02:29.

partner while actually on the Family Court estate. 44% reported that the

:02:30.:02:34.

judge granted child contact with the father when they knew the children

:02:35.:02:39.

had been directly abused by the father, and 76% reported that the

:02:40.:02:43.

judge granted child contact with the father when they knew the children

:02:44.:02:47.

had witnessed domestic abuse. I want to touch on two cases. Firstly I

:02:48.:02:52.

would like to add a 20th child to the list, Ellie Butler, who left her

:02:53.:02:57.

short life in my constituency, Sutton. Her parents met in a club in

:02:58.:03:12.

Sutton in March 2000 and six. Ben Butler had a criminal record

:03:13.:03:15.

including violence, attempted robbery, intimidation of a witness,

:03:16.:03:17.

and a conviction for assaulting his former girlfriend. Within weeks,

:03:18.:03:19.

Jenny Gray was pregnant with Ellie. The first time Butler was left alone

:03:20.:03:22.

with Ellie, who was just six weeks old, she sustained minor burns to

:03:23.:03:24.

her forehead and hand. Shortly afterwards, as this was brushed off

:03:25.:03:27.

as an accident, Butler again looked after Ellie. That evening he took

:03:28.:03:32.

her to our local hospital where she was diagnosed with injuries that

:03:33.:03:35.

suggested she may have been violently shaken. He was arrested on

:03:36.:03:40.

suspicion of GBH and the London Borough of Sutton started

:03:41.:03:43.

proceedings to have her taken into care. In January 2008, a judge found

:03:44.:03:50.

Butler had been responsible for both sets of injuries and ruled out any's

:03:51.:03:54.

mother as a long-term carer. In August that year he awarded

:03:55.:03:59.

temporary custody to Ellie's maternal grandparents. Butler went

:04:00.:04:03.

to prison, during which time Jenny Gray discovered she was pregnant

:04:04.:04:07.

again and hit the birth from local authorities. In October 2009, Butler

:04:08.:04:12.

was released on bail and walk free on appeal after three judges ruled

:04:13.:04:16.

his conviction was unsafe. The quashing of the conviction did not

:04:17.:04:19.

automatically reverse the ruling that the parents

:04:20.:04:32.

were not fit to care for any sub Butler went to war with the

:04:33.:04:36.

authorities and three years later Lady Justice Hallett made a decision

:04:37.:04:38.

that was to prove fatal for any. Not only did she return any to the

:04:39.:04:40.

parents custody, brushing aside convictions, saying the violent

:04:41.:04:42.

behaviour was not directed at children, but went on to write, it

:04:43.:04:45.

is seldom I see a happy ending public law proceedings, it is a joy

:04:46.:04:49.

to oversee the return of a child to her parents. Ellie's grandfather was

:04:50.:04:52.

said to have warned her, you will have blood on your hands, and how

:04:53.:04:58.

prescient he was. In addition to the judgment, Mrs Justice Cox make an

:04:59.:05:01.

order that all files held by the authority should be amended to

:05:02.:05:05.

include reference to the fact that the parents had been exonerated over

:05:06.:05:10.

her injuries and should proactively inform agencies of his innocence.

:05:11.:05:17.

What can the agencies make of that? How can they be denied the ability

:05:18.:05:21.

to review what was happening with a clean sheet restored to these

:05:22.:05:26.

people? It was not long after Ellie went back that she suffered a broken

:05:27.:05:30.

shoulder for which the parents sought no medical help as they

:05:31.:05:34.

sought to hide things from the authorities. In October 2013 Ellie

:05:35.:05:39.

was found dead at the hands of Ben Butler. The parents, opted a plot to

:05:40.:05:44.

club up the real cause of death, even sending Ellie's younger sibling

:05:45.:05:49.

to discover the body as part of the plot. Ellie's grandparents have not

:05:50.:05:55.

given up fighting for her, they have been trying to fight hard for

:05:56.:06:00.

custody of the two children. Unfortunately, Ellie's grandmother

:06:01.:06:03.

died on the day the trial started but her grandfather continues to

:06:04.:06:07.

speak out against the ruling which led to Sutton Council and other

:06:08.:06:12.

agencies are unable to do their job, and they did a good job but with

:06:13.:06:16.

their hands tied. My heart goes out to be and his other grandchild. I

:06:17.:06:21.

was able to catch a moment with the honourable member for Warrington who

:06:22.:06:27.

have had to leave the debate, and we remain, both of us, open for kneel

:06:28.:06:30.

to approach and we would like to support him in any way we can.

:06:31.:06:36.

Another case is far too close to home for me. Someone I know very

:06:37.:06:41.

well and the situation is ongoing so I will not be specific. A few years

:06:42.:06:46.

ago and met someone she later discovered had two children from a

:06:47.:06:50.

previous relationship. The mother and children ended up going to a

:06:51.:06:54.

refuge, changing their name and secretly moving away. Even though

:06:55.:06:58.

social services were involved he managed to track them down through

:06:59.:07:02.

months of trawling electoral rolls. Anna found herself soon in

:07:03.:07:05.

controlling relationship, we have heard about control this afternoon,

:07:06.:07:09.

stripping her away from her family and friends. He used drugs and was

:07:10.:07:14.

violent on occasions. She eventually had a child but the situation

:07:15.:07:18.

continued to deteriorate, affecting the child's stability and

:07:19.:07:21.

upbringing, and was helped by her partner's mother to leave and start

:07:22.:07:47.

again on her own. But it was not the end, Anna found a tracker in her

:07:48.:07:50.

car, she was continually harassed and stored as were family members as

:07:51.:07:52.

well. Agencies were aware, the police were aware, she was in and

:07:53.:07:55.

out of police stations to give statements, he would pound on the

:07:56.:07:57.

door at night, jumping over the fence, smashing the glass to get in

:07:58.:08:00.

the door. She has had to learn so much for herself about the system,

:08:01.:08:03.

her former partner has a good solicitor and knows how to make the

:08:04.:08:05.

best of the system, not for the child but for the solicitor's

:08:06.:08:08.

client. She could not apply for any non-molestation order while he was

:08:09.:08:10.

on bail. Whilst the police were out to arrest him, her family could not

:08:11.:08:13.

find out whether he was detained because of data protection issues.

:08:14.:08:15.

The police have her on an alert list with a promised five minutes

:08:16.:08:18.

response rate but last time it took 25 minutes. We can understand about

:08:19.:08:21.

police pressure but the promise of five minutes and 25 minutes makes

:08:22.:08:25.

all the difference when planning for such an eventuality. If you know it

:08:26.:08:28.

is 25 minutes you can try to deal with that the best you can. Anna has

:08:29.:08:33.

the support of both families, her own and her partner's. Her parents

:08:34.:08:36.

discovered they were grandparents quite a long way after she was

:08:37.:08:42.

stripped from the family, and they now have a wonderful, happy

:08:43.:08:46.

grandchild and Anna has become the most amazing mother in the face of

:08:47.:08:50.

such adversity, her child is thriving. She is lucky. Anna could

:08:51.:08:54.

have found herself on the Womens Aid list. I am delighted that she has

:08:55.:08:59.

not although the matter is nowhere near close, but please let's do more

:09:00.:09:03.

to support the work of the groups associated with Women's Aid, let's

:09:04.:09:06.

do more to improve the response for people like Anna and children like

:09:07.:09:10.

Ellie. We cannot let them down. I know what it is like looking at

:09:11.:09:14.

families and how helpless they feel in these sorts of cases. I cannot

:09:15.:09:20.

even begin to imagine actually being involved at the heart of that abuse,

:09:21.:09:25.

as we have heard about Claire, so it is really important that the police,

:09:26.:09:30.

the agencies, and of course the macro to do everything they can and

:09:31.:09:35.

we work to make those agencies and Family Courts work, that these

:09:36.:09:36.

tragedies cannot happen again. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:09:37.:09:49.

want to start on a positive note in a debate that has so far been

:09:50.:09:55.

incredibly moving, even to those who are the most battle hardened and

:09:56.:10:00.

battle weary as myself. It has been incredibly moving. The positive is

:10:01.:10:03.

that today, this morning, the government released information

:10:04.:10:08.

around the protection of women's refuges. From some of their changes

:10:09.:10:15.

to the housing benefit bill that was going ahead. I want to pay credit to

:10:16.:10:21.

the government for finally listening on the issue. But also to say that

:10:22.:10:27.

in this house, on these matters, we must work together and today, all of

:10:28.:10:34.

us here, the stories we are hearing today, have got to go some way to

:10:35.:10:40.

getting change in this area. This is now our next boat -- next fight and

:10:41.:10:46.

it is a fight that the public are going to get involved with as the

:10:47.:10:52.

archers I believe is about to enter into the family court after the

:10:53.:11:00.

episode on Friday is anything to go by. That has done a huge amount to

:11:01.:11:04.

raise awareness of the issue. The family court is an area that needs

:11:05.:11:11.

some of that. I want to pay huge credit to the member for Burnaston

:11:12.:11:16.

Stockbridge, the member for Hove and the right Honourable member for

:11:17.:11:20.

Basingstoke for securing this debate. The testimony about Claire's

:11:21.:11:27.

story from the member for Penistone and Stockbridge was incredibly

:11:28.:11:35.

moving. We have heard heartfelt heartbreak across the house about

:11:36.:11:38.

the victims of domestic violence in the family courts. Having this

:11:39.:11:43.

debate is important for a number of reasons. The first is to send out a

:11:44.:11:47.

rally cry to all of the victims in this country, and their children,

:11:48.:11:53.

that down here, in this bubble, that we can hear them. The family courts

:11:54.:12:00.

in this country, for those who have never had anything to do with them,

:12:01.:12:04.

and most of the people who have, are incredibly secretive. They wrapped

:12:05.:12:11.

up in confidentiality, where children get called P1, P two, X

:12:12.:12:18.

four. They get no media attention for this reason. It is difficult to

:12:19.:12:24.

report what goes on there. So today, in this place, it is our chance to

:12:25.:12:29.

bring some much-needed lie to that darkness and see what our

:12:30.:12:32.

institutions are really doing for the people of the UK. I thank her

:12:33.:12:38.

for giving way. Does she agree that there is still much work to be done

:12:39.:12:43.

to ensure that the police get the case to court, the case of my

:12:44.:12:47.

constituent, Louise, suffered the most terrible abuse but has never

:12:48.:12:52.

had that day in court, not just a personal tragedy for her but a

:12:53.:12:56.

national scandal for all of us. I agree entirely, in this place, we

:12:57.:13:03.

have some reasons to be proud of efforts that have been made by

:13:04.:13:07.

successive governments, year in and year out. The laws in this country

:13:08.:13:11.

are relatively good when it comes to domestic violence. Where we fail,

:13:12.:13:16.

time and again, is how we implement those laws and you don't need to

:13:17.:13:23.

look much further than many police reports on assessments of how police

:13:24.:13:27.

are handling cases of domestic violence to see that we need to do

:13:28.:13:32.

more. In this place we often make laws and we open a door to an empty

:13:33.:13:36.

room and that is a problem for victims. What I want to say to the

:13:37.:13:41.

victims who may be watching this and a lot have been in touch with me to

:13:42.:13:45.

tell their story and they want their stories heard. What I am sure they

:13:46.:13:51.

and everybody in this place wants to say is that the most important

:13:52.:13:55.

message, that victims of domestic and sexual violence rarely hear, is

:13:56.:14:03.

that we believe you. Those three words, if every single one of us can

:14:04.:14:07.

just tell everybody to stand and say we believe you, we could change

:14:08.:14:13.

things for victims of domestic violence who are frequently

:14:14.:14:16.

disbelieved by every single agency that they are put in front. The

:14:17.:14:22.

second reason that today's bait is important is to educate ourselves as

:14:23.:14:26.

legislators. My honourable and dear friend, the member for Hove, and I,

:14:27.:14:31.

have chatted about this subject many times in the last six months. On

:14:32.:14:35.

many occasions, he has come up to me and been stunned by The KC has. As

:14:36.:14:40.

if this is the worst case in the whole world. -- the case he has. I

:14:41.:14:48.

am sure we give voice to some of those examples today, some shocking

:14:49.:14:52.

stories. He is always so shocked and horrified and angry about every

:14:53.:14:58.

case. For me, the cases have become more expected, why are working with

:14:59.:15:02.

victims of violence have in many ways numbed me but am only human. I

:15:03.:15:11.

thank her for giving way, she talks about working with victims of

:15:12.:15:15.

domestic violence, IT worked in that field and one of the things I found

:15:16.:15:21.

that was frightening was that courts tend to think of domestic violence

:15:22.:15:24.

only in terms of bruises or injuries. And the archers have been

:15:25.:15:31.

brilliant at showing the impact of coercive and abusive behaviour but

:15:32.:15:35.

there is an incredible naivete in believing that coercive and abusive

:15:36.:15:41.

behaviour to mothers will not also happen to children. And if legal aid

:15:42.:15:47.

were available, it would be a huge help to those women to protect

:15:48.:15:51.

themselves. I couldn't agree more and I will come back to the issues

:15:52.:15:58.

of legal aid in a moment. The government opposite have certainly

:15:59.:16:02.

tried with the law to look at coercive control and we are to early

:16:03.:16:06.

down the line in that legislation to seek something that converts, to me

:16:07.:16:10.

it is not that convex, I don't find it too good to understand so I'm not

:16:11.:16:14.

sure why I am constantly cutting people slack, we should understand

:16:15.:16:21.

and I think the archers has definitely done something. And Henry

:16:22.:16:25.

of the archers, the small boy, there is no doubt about it that that child

:16:26.:16:34.

has been coerced, controlled. It is harrowing, I feel chills thinking

:16:35.:16:44.

about it. The member for Hove ran up to me and said he doesn't understand

:16:45.:16:49.

why people are still walking around in the streets, how can they carry

:16:50.:16:52.

on with their lives when this is happening? Why are they not

:16:53.:16:57.

screaming out about the family court system. Today in this place we have

:16:58.:17:02.

a chance to help our colleagues here and most importantly, the members in

:17:03.:17:06.

front of us on the government benches, to see the what we, all of

:17:07.:17:11.

us, as a country, are sanctioning at the moment in our court system. Here

:17:12.:17:18.

in this place, we have the power and the agency to change this. For every

:17:19.:17:22.

victim in the country and for every victim whose children have died. We

:17:23.:17:29.

must use our agency to do what they would do in a heartbeat if they were

:17:30.:17:34.

anywhere near as privileged as every single one of us. And so to our aid

:17:35.:17:41.

agency to changes. I speak of the report, in conjunction with the

:17:42.:17:47.

report today from women's aid and I would ask the minister today to give

:17:48.:17:51.

us some assurances about what we are actually going to do about this. I

:17:52.:17:57.

love warm words, I say them myself. I want hard actions. Myself and the

:17:58.:18:04.

Right Honourable member for Basingstoke had attempted to begin

:18:05.:18:08.

this conversation with the previous Justice Secretary, however, politics

:18:09.:18:13.

is a fickle game. It now falls to the next secretary to make her mark

:18:14.:18:17.

on the job and it is important to state that currently we could be

:18:18.:18:22.

considered to be breaking the law on these issues in the UK. As a member,

:18:23.:18:27.

currently, for now, of the European Union. We sign up to specific

:18:28.:18:30.

directives on protective victims and one directive explicitly states that

:18:31.:18:36.

we will uphold the protection of victims within our court system and

:18:37.:18:41.

contact with offenders must be avoided. And therefore in all new

:18:42.:18:47.

court buildings that are built, chance would be a fine thing at the

:18:48.:18:52.

moment, most have that macro must have separate waiting areas. Every

:18:53.:18:58.

single day, we are breaching that. We will hear about victims who are

:18:59.:19:02.

not just in the same waiting area but are allowed to be

:19:03.:19:07.

cross-examined, even bullied, by the very people who have abused them for

:19:08.:19:13.

years. In the criminal courts, this would be considered a severe breach

:19:14.:19:16.

of human rights. It would also completely fly in the face of the

:19:17.:19:22.

achieving best evidence standards and most likely, the evidence would

:19:23.:19:28.

be thrown out. For years, we all campaign, the ball in this place,

:19:29.:19:33.

campaigned to have children taken into video rooms. We had partitions

:19:34.:19:38.

in separate waiting rooms, those things have all happened. A quarter

:19:39.:19:42.

of the women survey to work found to have been directly cross-examined in

:19:43.:19:47.

the family courts by their abuser. This issue is rising as a direct

:19:48.:19:53.

result of the cessation of legal aid. And the rising number of

:19:54.:19:58.

citizens acting as litigants in person. When I asked the Justice

:19:59.:20:02.

Department another of months ago for the number of litigants in person in

:20:03.:20:08.

the family courts, I was told that they don't monitor that information.

:20:09.:20:13.

Might I gently suggest, because I am in a good mood because they have

:20:14.:20:17.

done something good today, that, to the justice Minister, that that is

:20:18.:20:24.

simply not good enough. We have to look at trends and what is happening

:20:25.:20:27.

in our courts. I also want to make the point that there is a pervasive

:20:28.:20:33.

myth that family courts are unfairly biased towards mothers. I think we

:20:34.:20:37.

will hear today all kinds of examples of why that is not the

:20:38.:20:42.

case. And it doesn't matter how many times you scale of the building

:20:43.:20:47.

dressed as Spiderman, women are still badly treated in our family

:20:48.:20:51.

court system. This is especially pertinent when it comes to those

:20:52.:20:55.

with a history of domestic violence. The enquiry found there is no

:20:56.:20:59.

evidence to suggest that it is the case that women are favoured. On

:21:00.:21:05.

average, only 1% of applicants to family courts in the UK have access

:21:06.:21:12.

refused. Only 1% are told they can no longer see their children. And

:21:13.:21:18.

70% of all cases in front of the family courts are victims of

:21:19.:21:28.

domestic violence. 1% of 70% of all cases are told they cannot see their

:21:29.:21:34.

children. In three quarters of cases where courts have ordered contact

:21:35.:21:38.

with an abusive parent, children suffer further abuse. Some children

:21:39.:21:42.

have even been ordered to have contact with a parent who has

:21:43.:21:46.

committed offences against the children themselves. We have heard,

:21:47.:21:52.

children have even been killed as a result of residency arrangements. I

:21:53.:21:57.

want to stress as well that an abusive partner can force a victim

:21:58.:22:02.

into the family courts or any civil court in the UK as many times as

:22:03.:22:08.

they like. This is not a judgment you get handed down. Your case falls

:22:09.:22:12.

and then you don't get another bite of the cherry. You can go as many

:22:13.:22:18.

times as you like. You can chase a woman around the country, taking the

:22:19.:22:23.

same claim against and there is nothing that will stop that. There

:22:24.:22:27.

is no doubt in many cases that violent perpetrators use the family

:22:28.:22:31.

court system not to get their children but to continue stalking

:22:32.:22:36.

and continue a reign of terror. The domestic violence a BGG that have

:22:37.:22:44.

suggested recommendations are made for Mrs Grisly in line with the

:22:45.:22:56.

report by women's aid. We want to see -- that fell in line with

:22:57.:23:01.

women's aid. Irony hope the ministers here will listen to what

:23:02.:23:08.

they are hearing here today and act as some of their colleagues have

:23:09.:23:11.

today, to do the right thing, thank you very much. I first want to

:23:12.:23:20.

congratulate my Honourable friends for bringing this debate to the

:23:21.:23:22.

house. In particular I would like to pay

:23:23.:23:35.

tribute to Denise and all of her staff at the Grimsby Womens Aid and

:23:36.:23:39.

all of the women that I have met there who are amazing and who,

:23:40.:23:44.

despite some real tragedy and difficulties, continue to face life

:23:45.:23:48.

with bravery and extraordinary good humour. I have had several victims

:23:49.:23:55.

of domestic violence come to me at surgeries in Grimsby looking for

:23:56.:23:59.

help because they feel they have been let down. They feel like the

:24:00.:24:02.

whole system is stacked against them. They are the ones who have had

:24:03.:24:07.

to move out of the area that they live in, they are the ones who have

:24:08.:24:11.

the burden of proof that falls onto them, they are the ones who have

:24:12.:24:16.

their parenting constantly questioned, and it is they who live

:24:17.:24:21.

in fear of abuse and feel that they will lose their children. They are

:24:22.:24:26.

victims but too often feel they are treated with suspicion rather than

:24:27.:24:29.

compassion and made to feel like the guilty party. The way in which the

:24:30.:24:33.

macro to operate revealed a lack of understanding of the situation that

:24:34.:24:40.

domestic abuse victims find themselves in -- the way in which

:24:41.:24:45.

the Family Courts operate. They should not have to share a room with

:24:46.:24:49.

their abuser and should not have to face cross questioning from them

:24:50.:24:53.

either. As the honourable member for Basingstoke mentioned earlier, it is

:24:54.:25:00.

too difficult for individuals in small spaces to be faced with their

:25:01.:25:03.

abuser and I would like to thank Rush L, one of my constituents, for

:25:04.:25:09.

allowing me to use her name, she was insistent that I use her name, in

:25:10.:25:16.

fact, to highlight the very personal and individual difficulties that

:25:17.:25:19.

represents the difficulty for so many women is because Rochelle fled

:25:20.:25:23.

her abusive partner and yet was forced to face him in court several

:25:24.:25:27.

times over the last six years. He is using the court system to gain

:25:28.:25:38.

access to provide security at their meetings, she was made to sit at the

:25:39.:25:42.

same table in a small room as her former partner and he took the

:25:43.:25:47.

opportunity to make horrendous sexually derogatory comments to her.

:25:48.:25:51.

This is a man who twice put her in hospital whilst she was pregnant.

:25:52.:25:55.

She should never have to be in the same room as him again. But she

:25:56.:26:01.

feels that the Family Court forced her back into the perpetrator's

:26:02.:26:04.

presence and control. Additionally she has had no access to social

:26:05.:26:09.

housing because local authority deemed her to have made herself

:26:10.:26:14.

intentionally homeless, having fled her home. It is so incredibly

:26:15.:26:18.

common, she is not alone in that situation. I thank her for the

:26:19.:26:26.

speech she is making. She has highlighted an important issue which

:26:27.:26:31.

from my work has become increasingly apparent, the training given to

:26:32.:26:34.

teams in local authorities who then are dealing sometimes with social

:26:35.:26:40.

services and social housing family issues where there has been domestic

:26:41.:26:49.

abuse. The importance of awareness and training and leadership for

:26:50.:26:54.

local authorities on these issues. I absolutely agree that training plays

:26:55.:26:57.

a big part, I also think a lot more could be done in terms of cross

:26:58.:27:02.

agency working and understanding. I recently visited schools in my

:27:03.:27:06.

constituency and was shocked to hear a support worker who had worked in

:27:07.:27:10.

the school for nearly 30 years, lived in the community in which she

:27:11.:27:15.

worked, and she believed that around one in five of the children at the

:27:16.:27:19.

school were in families with domestic violence. That figure is

:27:20.:27:26.

shocking in itself, but on the positive side she said it was really

:27:27.:27:30.

important in a school environment that children felt like they have a

:27:31.:27:34.

safe space somewhere where they felt there were good relationships and

:27:35.:27:37.

they were able to open up to the staff there. Again, the honourable

:27:38.:27:43.

member's point about training comes in in schools as well and I believe

:27:44.:27:48.

a lot of that is reported violence, so can the Government consider how

:27:49.:27:53.

to get greater confidence in the system for people to even recognised

:27:54.:27:57.

violence in the household as a problem because I think all so some

:27:58.:28:02.

people are accepted as being a volatile relationship and don't even

:28:03.:28:05.

recognise it as domestic violence all the time, perhaps that is ready

:28:06.:28:10.

the coercive element comes in. That makes me believe even more that good

:28:11.:28:14.

relationship education in schools can help children realise that those

:28:15.:28:20.

are not normal relationships and that is not how loved ones behave

:28:21.:28:25.

towards one another. I tabled Parliamentary questions relating to

:28:26.:28:28.

the effect of domestic violence on children who are subject or witness

:28:29.:28:33.

to it, and I am really concerned that the Government does not seem to

:28:34.:28:36.

have been sufficiently interested in that subject. I asked how many

:28:37.:28:41.

children the Government estimated in homes where domestic violence

:28:42.:28:44.

occurred and how they believe the educational attainment of children

:28:45.:28:48.

who experience domestic violence is affected. The answers I received

:28:49.:28:51.

from the Department of Education word that although they count the

:28:52.:28:55.

number of referrals to children social care in which domestic

:28:56.:29:00.

violence is a factor, the figures do not include all children who

:29:01.:29:03.

experience domestic violence and they do not publish attainment data

:29:04.:29:06.

for children who have been referred. Would greater cross departmental

:29:07.:29:12.

work make sure that this is highlighted because I worried these

:29:13.:29:16.

answers show a lack of urgency in tackling the problem. Finally, I

:29:17.:29:22.

would just like to raise an issue that another constituent brought to

:29:23.:29:34.

me within the Concentrix debacle we have had uncovered because a woman

:29:35.:29:38.

with two children had her tax credit money stopped two weeks ago because

:29:39.:29:42.

she was subject to a random check, she was told she was suspected of

:29:43.:29:46.

living with a partner, Concentrix would not disclose the name of the

:29:47.:29:49.

person they suspected to be living with her, they would not make any

:29:50.:29:54.

home visits, she is a single parent, she left evidence of the fact that

:29:55.:29:59.

she is single, she has now been forced to use food banks, meals at

:30:00.:30:03.

her parents' house, and assistance with school uniform costs for her

:30:04.:30:07.

children. This is particularly difficult because that constituent

:30:08.:30:10.

is a bit of domestic violence, she has had to set up her life again

:30:11.:30:15.

from scratch to make sure that she and her children are safe, and feels

:30:16.:30:20.

a like the state and all of the agencies involved are working

:30:21.:30:24.

against her having a fresh start. The

:30:25.:30:39.

lack of sensitivity, awareness and preparedness across state agencies

:30:40.:30:42.

from the welfare system to Family Courts as well as the police and

:30:43.:30:44.

education system lets down children and victims of domestic violence and

:30:45.:30:47.

leaves them feeling that the whole system is working against them. Can

:30:48.:30:49.

I start by joining the chorus of approval and gratitude to the Member

:30:50.:30:52.

for Penistone and stocks bridge for securing this debate and also giving

:30:53.:30:55.

voice to a family that so desperately wanted it, and doing so

:30:56.:31:00.

so effectively, but also setting the tone for this debate, which I think

:31:01.:31:04.

was really well appreciated by all of us who are following her

:31:05.:31:09.

afterwards. I would also like to thank the honourable member for

:31:10.:31:11.

Basingstoke who spoke briefly and joined in on the pitch for this

:31:12.:31:15.

debate, and also to my honourable friend the Member for Birmingham

:31:16.:31:21.

Yardley who was there for the debate but as a member of the committee

:31:22.:31:26.

could not join in, but I could tell from her unrestrained facial

:31:27.:31:28.

expressions was offering support in many other ways during the process.

:31:29.:31:33.

These members and others here today have respectably championed victims

:31:34.:31:37.

of domestic abuse in Parliament, in Government, and on the front line.

:31:38.:31:41.

Together they bring a wealth of advocacy experience to this debate

:31:42.:31:45.

but I must admit that I have some shame that I only came to realise

:31:46.:31:49.

the true brutal horror of domestic violence relatively recently when I

:31:50.:32:13.

became a member for Parliament. Shortly after the election last year

:32:14.:32:17.

I was in my office sifting through the rubble of my campaign when a

:32:18.:32:20.

woman walked in and asked if I was her new MP. When I said yes, she

:32:21.:32:23.

told me she had just fled her partner having suffered the latest

:32:24.:32:25.

in a long series of very brutal attacks. She sat bruised and shaking

:32:26.:32:28.

and said that she was ready to move on but she needed help. She did not

:32:29.:32:31.

trust the police so she turned to me. That was my first experience,

:32:32.:32:34.

somebody turning to me for help as an MP, and the first time I had sat

:32:35.:32:37.

down with a survivor of domestic abuse. Since that time I have got to

:32:38.:32:40.

know many women who have survived violent relationships and have tried

:32:41.:32:42.

to be the best advocate for them. It is through meeting and listening to

:32:43.:32:45.

the Bible is that I came first to understand how our Family Courts are

:32:46.:32:47.

being used to perpetuate abuse against vulnerable women. 18 months

:32:48.:32:53.

ago I did not know that a convicted criminal could represent himself and

:32:54.:32:55.

cross-examine the victims of his crimes over and over and over again

:32:56.:32:58.

by using the Family Courts. How could I get to this age and not know

:32:59.:33:03.

that? And why is it that so few people I talked to have the faintest

:33:04.:33:09.

idea this is going on daily in the British legal system? One

:33:10.:33:12.

constituent I'm in regular contact with and has now been cross-examined

:33:13.:33:17.

by her former partner on three separate occasions. The man who beat

:33:18.:33:22.

her, who broke her bones, battered her unconscious and hospitalised,

:33:23.:33:26.

who was convicted for his crimes, yet still has the right to summon

:33:27.:33:29.

his victim to court on a spurious custody. He will never win the case

:33:30.:33:54.

but that is not the point. He is already victorious the very second

:33:55.:33:56.

he steps into the court room, because in that instantly get

:33:57.:33:58.

exactly what he wants, which is to continue to inflict violence and

:33:59.:34:01.

abuse against a woman who has already suffered more than most of

:34:02.:34:03.

us could ever possibly imagine. Is it not also important that the

:34:04.:34:05.

courts understand how they are being manipulated in this way and that the

:34:06.:34:08.

courts actually ought to be recording how often and abuse that

:34:09.:34:10.

is deliberately using the courts to further abuse? Concentrix should

:34:11.:34:16.

also be aware that where they received reports of an unreported

:34:17.:34:20.

adult being in the home that actually it may well be the abuse

:34:21.:34:23.

that carrying on the abuse by making. Reports and they should take

:34:24.:34:27.

action to investigate that before they cut of the benefits. She makes

:34:28.:34:35.

an incredibly important point. In fact, the very fact that many of the

:34:36.:34:39.

men who are inflicting this violence are extremely manipulative...

:34:40.:34:45.

Absolutely. They are extremely careful in the way they manipulate

:34:46.:34:49.

people and systems means that far more emphasis and effort should go

:34:50.:34:52.

into understanding the people who are victims who can explain the

:34:53.:34:55.

behaviour the courts are dealing with. If we did that I think a lot

:34:56.:35:01.

of heartbreak and also violence would be avoided. Another

:35:02.:35:04.

constituent told me that she was shaking so violently after a Family

:35:05.:35:09.

Court hearing that she had to be assisted to the taxi. Soon after

:35:10.:35:12.

leaving the taxi had to stop to allow her to open the door and

:35:13.:35:14.

vomit. Madam Deputy Speaker, those of us

:35:15.:35:54.

who have not experienced it cannot comprehend the fear that survived

:35:55.:35:56.

the supper. It is all encompassing and ever present. The prospect of

:35:57.:35:58.

seeing the man who reigned such terror causes paralysis. The

:35:59.:36:00.

faintest possibility that the abuser can get access to personal details,

:36:01.:36:02.

addresses, bank account numbers, medical records, is absolutely

:36:03.:36:04.

overwhelming. What is most grotesque is that abusers know this, they know

:36:05.:36:07.

the Family Courts can be used to torment their victims and in some

:36:08.:36:09.

cases they do so with unrelenting brutality. When you listen to

:36:10.:36:11.

survivors describe their experiences of being summoned, of approaching

:36:12.:36:13.

the hearing date, of being cross-examined by their abuser, and

:36:14.:36:15.

then the aftermath, there is one inescapable truth. The language and

:36:16.:36:17.

vocabulary describing the Family Court experience is identical to the

:36:18.:36:19.

way they described the violence they have experienced in the relationship

:36:20.:36:21.

which they bravely escaped. It should shock everyone that Family

:36:22.:36:24.

Courts are being used in a way that inflicts, not ends, violence against

:36:25.:36:28.

women. Worst of all, from the abuser's perspective, it works. One

:36:29.:36:34.

constituent told me last month that she is dropping harassment charges.

:36:35.:36:38.

This is because there is a good chance that her

:36:39.:36:50.

abuser will gain access to her mental help files because he has

:36:51.:36:53.

chosen to represent himself. She simply cannot bear the thought of

:36:54.:36:56.

him reading and then being gratified by such intimate and personal

:36:57.:36:58.

information. Another has told me that she simply cannot face another

:36:59.:37:00.

cross examination by her convicted abuser. She had been medicated in

:37:01.:37:05.

order to endure the last experience and then the recovery from it took

:37:06.:37:10.

weeks. She told me that if he tries again, she will capitulate, she will

:37:11.:37:14.

give him whatever is demanded simply to avoid the experience. She said to

:37:15.:37:19.

me, I simply do not have it in me to survive another cross examination.

:37:20.:37:24.

There is one example that sums up the sheer horror of the abuse. It is

:37:25.:37:31.

continuation in the Family Court, and that is of Jane Clough. Jane

:37:32.:37:35.

Ross in an abusive and violent relationship until she finally took

:37:36.:37:40.

action and went to the police. Her ex-partner, Jonathan Vass, appeared

:37:41.:37:45.

in court charged with nine counts of rape, one sexual assault, and three

:37:46.:37:49.

counts of common assault. Some of this had taken place while Jane was

:37:50.:37:54.

heavily pregnant with his child. Inexplicably, the judge described

:37:55.:38:01.

DECC decided that that was not a threat and freed him on bail. Jane

:38:02.:38:05.

lived in so much fear that she moved in with her parents for comfort and

:38:06.:38:09.

protection but he eventually found out where she was working and in

:38:10.:38:14.

July 2010 he attacked her as she headed home from work. He stabbed

:38:15.:38:19.

her 19 times and then slashed her throat. Wounds from which she died.

:38:20.:38:24.

The next day, he was arrested approaching her parents' home. He

:38:25.:38:29.

was on his way to murder either his baby child, Jane's parents, or both.

:38:30.:38:42.

I have had the honour of talking to Jane's parents and sister. They are

:38:43.:38:45.

a family whose grace and dignity shine above the horror that they

:38:46.:38:47.

have had to endure. But there is more to this terrible episode, and

:38:48.:38:50.

they are desperate for people to hear about it and learn from it.

:38:51.:38:54.

Once in prison, Vass began demanding parental rights over his child. This

:38:55.:39:00.

was a child whose mother he had beaten and murdered. And the child

:39:01.:39:07.

he would have, in all likelihood, murdered himself if he had had the

:39:08.:39:11.

opportunity. None of us can imagine the pain this caused to Jane's

:39:12.:39:17.

family, but it gets worse still. Jane's sister began adoption

:39:18.:39:20.

proceedings to break the link with Vass. From that moment onwards, the

:39:21.:39:25.

family experienced a legal system stacked in his favour rather than

:39:26.:39:30.

the baby that he had tried to kill. Without access to financial support

:39:31.:39:34.

or the delayed, the family had to find separate representation for the

:39:35.:39:38.

baby and the rest of the family. He had a legal firm not donating -- had

:39:39.:39:46.

a legal firm not donated pro bono representation, they would have had

:39:47.:39:48.

to sell their house to cover the costs. A five-day hearing was

:39:49.:39:52.

scheduled in the Family Court and they were informed Vass had

:39:53.:39:56.

exercised his right to self representation. The man who brutally

:39:57.:40:01.

murdered their sister, their daughter, would be cross-examining

:40:02.:40:02.

them. Chamber of sister says she cannot

:40:03.:40:13.

find the words to express the brutalising fact of this. -- Jane's

:40:14.:40:19.

sister. They were stunned to discover that this was because of

:40:20.:40:23.

concerns for his safety and had nothing to do with the well-being of

:40:24.:40:29.

them. As Jane's sister told me, "It was so shocking, it was all about

:40:30.:40:33.

him. What was best him and how best to protect his rights. Nothing had

:40:34.:40:41.

been balanced against our rights." Under representation, the ask

:40:42.:40:45.

personal questions to the family members, referring to the baby, to

:40:46.:40:50.

the husband, he said "What makes you think you can be a dad to my

:40:51.:40:55.

daughter?" The trauma meted out by the family court process is simply

:40:56.:41:01.

inhuman. This family had suffered enough. The family have asked me to

:41:02.:41:05.

pass on their thanks to two advocates who made a difference to

:41:06.:41:11.

them during and since these events. Dame Louise Casey, whose victims

:41:12.:41:15.

Commissioner learned from their experience and took steps for

:41:16.:41:18.

greater recognition for victims in the family courts. The second is my

:41:19.:41:24.

right honourable men -- right honourable friend, the member for

:41:25.:41:29.

Hogan and Saint Pancras. He, as the Republic prosecutions got to know

:41:30.:41:32.

the family very well. They spoke in the highest possible terms of him

:41:33.:41:37.

and his advocacy for them in this episode. Progress has been made

:41:38.:41:41.

deputy speaker but it has been clay seal. We have not seen a

:41:42.:41:45.

transformation that is desperately needed. The abuse and brutalisation

:41:46.:41:52.

of women and families is being perpetuated with our legal system.

:41:53.:41:57.

To the abuses, the family courts is another tool they can extend their

:41:58.:42:03.

hate, violence and their control of extremely vulnerable women. These

:42:04.:42:08.

are exactly the kind of people the state exists to protect. And that is

:42:09.:42:12.

why every day these practices are are allowed to continue, shame is

:42:13.:42:16.

heaped on our justice system, on this house and on our government. We

:42:17.:42:20.

have the power to stop this happening and yet it continues. Can

:42:21.:42:30.

I also start by thanking the honourable member for Penistone and

:42:31.:42:33.

Stockbridge for securing today's important debate and for her very

:42:34.:42:39.

moving speech. And also the other members who have contributed very

:42:40.:42:44.

moving stories from the own constituents's experiences. I would

:42:45.:42:53.

like to commend women's aid and the group report, we must not stay

:42:54.:42:57.

silent on the issue it raises. We must speak up for the children whose

:42:58.:43:01.

safety and well-being is being put at risk, and their lives, due to

:43:02.:43:05.

poorly risk assessed contact with parents who are known perpetrators

:43:06.:43:09.

of domestic abuse. The fact that in England and Wales in the last ten

:43:10.:43:14.

years, 19 children have been murdered, two mothers, two further

:43:15.:43:16.

children have faced attempts on their lives and seven fathers have

:43:17.:43:20.

killed themselves after killing their children indicates to me that

:43:21.:43:23.

there are indeed systemic shortcomings in the approach to

:43:24.:43:27.

family contact that need to be addressed. I wish I could stand here

:43:28.:43:30.

and say it is all rosy in Scotland but in the other two we face similar

:43:31.:43:32.

challenges. In some respects, we have a fairly

:43:33.:43:47.

robust legislative framework but sometimes the application falls

:43:48.:43:51.

short and we know there is more to do. I am glad that Nicola Sturgeon

:43:52.:43:56.

announced last week that a new domestic abuse bill will be part of

:43:57.:44:00.

the new programme for government. Recognition that psychological abuse

:44:01.:44:04.

and coercive and controlling behaviour can be difficult to

:44:05.:44:09.

address under existing laws and proposed legislation to put that

:44:10.:44:13.

right. Understanding of coercive control has grown.

:44:14.:44:25.

Abusers can use coercive behaviour to continue their abuse through the

:44:26.:44:30.

court system. The underlying issues are similar both sides of the

:44:31.:44:34.

border. I want to highlight the shortcoming our legislation and

:44:35.:44:40.

those areas where it new legislation regulatory guidance could strengthen

:44:41.:44:46.

the well-being of and limit the opportunities for abusers to

:44:47.:44:47.

perpetrate further harm. In rightly, child welfare and

:44:48.:45:02.

children's interests are put first, the law states that when a court is

:45:03.:45:07.

considering the case of a child in relation to parental rights and

:45:08.:45:09.

responsibilities, they must take into account the need to protect the

:45:10.:45:13.

child from abuse or risk of abuse that might affect the child. The law

:45:14.:45:17.

also states that courts must take into effect -- account, the fact

:45:18.:45:23.

that the risk of abuse that the person carrying out the abuse and

:45:24.:45:34.

when a parent raises an action about the residents of a child, the court

:45:35.:45:39.

is under a statutory duty to give the child the opportunity to express

:45:40.:45:43.

his or her views giving account of the child's age and maturity. The

:45:44.:45:48.

court has to have regard as to the views they may express having them

:45:49.:45:53.

due weight relative against the child's age and majority. This

:45:54.:45:58.

ensures the legislation complies with the UN Convention, so far, so

:45:59.:46:03.

good. Unfortunately that is not how it always works in practice. I fear

:46:04.:46:09.

the law is not being consistently applied and can take scant account

:46:10.:46:22.

of the parent with care. Edinburgh University hosted a conference this

:46:23.:46:25.

week that looked at these issues around child contact. I was not able

:46:26.:46:29.

to attend but a keynote presentation was made by the Reverend Tracey

:46:30.:46:34.

Hart, who in October last year was sentenced to 12 months in jail for

:46:35.:46:37.

contempt of court having been accused of attempting to keep her

:46:38.:46:41.

children away from their father. Whom press reports suggest he was a

:46:42.:46:46.

convicted murderer with a history of violence. She spent eight days in

:46:47.:46:50.

jail before being released on appeal. The appeal judges said the

:46:51.:46:53.

sentence was incompetent and she should not have been convicted in

:46:54.:46:59.

the first place but what disturbs me most was that two sheriffs were

:47:00.:47:03.

involved in these outrageous proceedings. That shows we are still

:47:04.:47:09.

tackling the vestiges of an attitudinal culture where the

:47:10.:47:12.

dynamics of coercive control are poorly understood but the impact of

:47:13.:47:17.

domestic abuse is underestimated and the voices of children are

:47:18.:47:20.

diminished. The experience of Tracey Hart and her children suggest that

:47:21.:47:28.

in some part of the judiciary, children's own rights to have their

:47:29.:47:32.

voices heard and respected are not taken seriously enough. Mothers who

:47:33.:47:35.

seek to protect themselves and their children from abusive and dangerous

:47:36.:47:39.

former partners are still seen in some quarters as bitter and

:47:40.:47:46.

vindictive troublemakers. We still have some way to go to ensure that

:47:47.:47:50.

all sheriffs are properly equipped to preside over such cases. I think

:47:51.:47:54.

Tracey Hart has been incredibly brave in speaking out but the other

:47:55.:48:01.

troubling thing that comes out of the court processes that she went

:48:02.:48:06.

through, it is that it can be used for partners to perpetrate further

:48:07.:48:12.

abuse. My comments on this echo previous speakers, we need to ask

:48:13.:48:16.

whether contact arrangements are robust enough to protect families

:48:17.:48:20.

from further abuse and find ways to prevent contact becoming a vehicle

:48:21.:48:24.

through which an abusive ex can continue to abuse their former

:48:25.:48:28.

partner. We need to look at how contact is risk assessed and the

:48:29.:48:32.

staff in courts and contact centres are trained to spot signs of

:48:33.:48:35.

controlling and manipulative behaviour. And with a new regulatory

:48:36.:48:39.

violence that macro regulatory -- at the moment, there is a

:48:40.:48:47.

presumption that contact with parents is a good thing but when

:48:48.:48:52.

France has a history of violence and abuse, is that really the case? I do

:48:53.:48:55.

think we have got the balance right. Tracey Hart said her children were

:48:56.:49:00.

reluctant is bent on with their father. A psychiatric assessment

:49:01.:49:04.

suggested that contact was damaging to their mental health and described

:49:05.:49:08.

her elder son even vomiting before a contact session. These children were

:49:09.:49:11.

still compelled to attend sessions and could -- cajoled by staff to

:49:12.:49:16.

spend time with their father even though they did not want to. Frankly

:49:17.:49:20.

it is not good enough and we need to ensure that all parts of these

:49:21.:49:25.

islands become a safer place for those who have endured domestic

:49:26.:49:28.

abuse. It is incumbent on every single one of us to name these

:49:29.:49:31.

abuses of power for what they are and speak out on behalf of those

:49:32.:49:37.

whose lives are damaged and endangered under present approaches.

:49:38.:49:40.

We can do much better and we must do much better and I hope ministers are

:49:41.:49:49.

listening today and I hope we will. Before I begin my speech, I would

:49:50.:49:53.

pay to get to the backbench committee for bringing this debate

:49:54.:49:57.

forward. I want to pay to view to the moving testimony we have heard

:49:58.:50:02.

today and the contributions from the member of Penistone and Stockbridge

:50:03.:50:07.

and the member for Sutton and Cheam, who told us quite harrowing tales of

:50:08.:50:12.

their experience with constituents. This debate follows in the wake of

:50:13.:50:17.

the publication of women's aid's 19 child homicide report. It is an

:50:18.:50:22.

important debate and there is no doubt there is much more reflection

:50:23.:50:28.

and circumspection required in the treatment of those who have been

:50:29.:50:31.

victims of domestic abuse in family courts. The report tells a tragic

:50:32.:50:40.

and appalling story of 19 children all intentionally killed by a parent

:50:41.:50:44.

who was also a known perpetrator of domestic abuse over a 10-year

:50:45.:50:48.

period. These killings were made possible by an safe formal and

:50:49.:50:55.

informal child contact arrangements. Shockingly, they report uncovers a

:50:56.:51:00.

range of concerns regarding child contact including routine failings

:51:01.:51:04.

to follow legal protocols and a lack of professional understanding about

:51:05.:51:07.

the power and control dynamics of abuse. One of the issues that I

:51:08.:51:13.

think is worthy of consideration is that domestic abuse itself has not

:51:14.:51:20.

been a criminal offence so single incidence are prosecuted under a

:51:21.:51:23.

range of offences come such as common assault or rape. There has a

:51:24.:51:30.

new -- there is now a new offence of coercive control. Because it may

:51:31.:51:35.

prove difficult to prosecute this kind of case, Scotland has announced

:51:36.:51:41.

a new domestic abuse bill as part of Scotland's programme, putting

:51:42.:51:44.

Scotland at the forefront of Nations in attacking the true nature of

:51:45.:51:49.

domestic abuse. This would include criminalisation of psychological

:51:50.:51:55.

abuse and a range of associated measures to modernise the justice

:51:56.:51:58.

system and how it responds to domestic abuse. This is being

:51:59.:52:02.

debated in the Scottish Parliament on this very day. It is clear that

:52:03.:52:06.

domestic abuse is underreported but there is a growing understanding of

:52:07.:52:09.

the damaging impact which known physical forms of abuse can have on

:52:10.:52:14.

those who are subject to it. Methods of control and even threatening to

:52:15.:52:19.

harm others, including children. And in Scotland, the creation of a new

:52:20.:52:30.

offence, of domestic abuse is progress. It will have a significant

:52:31.:52:36.

impact on how society views domestic abuse by ensuring that there is

:52:37.:52:41.

clarity about what is unacceptable under the law. This will make

:52:42.:52:45.

efforts from the police services and the prosecution services more

:52:46.:52:50.

effective in dealing with domestic abusers. Importantly, it will bring

:52:51.:52:53.

clarity for those subjected to domestic abuse at the justice system

:52:54.:52:58.

is focusing on their needs and the needs of their children. Protecting

:52:59.:53:02.

people in abusive relationships and their children, as we have heard so

:53:03.:53:06.

much about today, must be the overriding objective. We spend a lot

:53:07.:53:13.

of time in this chamber talking about children's literacy and

:53:14.:53:16.

education, even their obesity levels. But before we can tackle any

:53:17.:53:21.

of those issues, we must ensure that sufficient measures are in place to

:53:22.:53:25.

keep them safe from harm. Even when necessary from the domestic abuse

:53:26.:53:32.

parent. Family court must be mindful of this. It has to be presumed that

:53:33.:53:37.

contact with the abusive parent is not in the best interest of the

:53:38.:53:43.

child or the known abusive parent who could be required to leave them

:53:44.:53:48.

in considerable danger. It is important the family courts consider

:53:49.:53:55.

parenting capacity, and the chance of future abuse on the ability to

:53:56.:54:03.

parent safely the child and that of the abusive parent. It is vital that

:54:04.:54:07.

family courts prevent further child death by or with putting children

:54:08.:54:11.

first in family courts. This requires something of a cultural

:54:12.:54:15.

change within the family court system to ensure the safety and

:54:16.:54:19.

well-being of children and non-abusive parents is understood

:54:20.:54:20.

and consistently prioritised. When a partner is in an abusive

:54:21.:54:32.

relationship, children in that household are not safe either. And

:54:33.:54:37.

that is an obvious reality towards which all the evidence points. I

:54:38.:54:42.

would urge the Minister to look carefully at the measures put

:54:43.:54:45.

forward in Scotland by the first Minister. It doesn't matter where

:54:46.:54:50.

governments learn from all which examples they follow, the only thing

:54:51.:54:53.

that matters is that lives are improved or, as we have heard today,

:54:54.:54:58.

tragically, that lives are saved, more specifically the lives of

:54:59.:55:02.

children. The 19 child homicides report should give us all pause for

:55:03.:55:07.

thought. One child killed by a parent or carer is one child to

:55:08.:55:12.

many, and these children have no voice. We must be their voice, we

:55:13.:55:23.

must ensure that our justice systems in all corners of Scotland, in all

:55:24.:55:26.

corners of the United Kingdom, serve their children well and keep them

:55:27.:55:29.

safe. Let me begin by congratulating my honourable friend for securing

:55:30.:55:37.

this important debate, and by paying tribute to her constituent, Claire.

:55:38.:55:42.

As a Sheffield resident I can well remember hearing the shocking news

:55:43.:55:46.

of the murder of her two sons, Jack and Paul, and being horrified to

:55:47.:55:51.

find that this came at the hands of their own father. And man who was

:55:52.:55:55.

known to the authorities for his history of domestic violence. I'm

:55:56.:56:00.

inspired by the bravery Claire has shown in such tragedy. Working with

:56:01.:56:04.

women's aid to raise awareness and push for change in the way family

:56:05.:56:09.

courts operate, and I'm pleased to see so many members of this debate

:56:10.:56:15.

joining in her struggle. Sadly, what happened to Claire's sons was not an

:56:16.:56:22.

isolated event. As we have heard, between 2005 and 2015, 19 children

:56:23.:56:28.

in 12 families were killed by perpetrators of domestic abuse. All

:56:29.:56:33.

of the perpetrators were fathers to the children that they killed, all

:56:34.:56:39.

of them had access to their children through formal or informal child

:56:40.:56:43.

contact arrangements. As the Womens Aid report makes clear, the blame

:56:44.:56:48.

for these deaths lies solely with the abusive fathers who killed their

:56:49.:56:51.

children. The failures of the family court system does not in any way

:56:52.:56:56.

detract from that. Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that when it comes

:56:57.:57:01.

to cases involving domestic abuse, the family courts too often fail to

:57:02.:57:04.

put the safety of children and abuse part first. Potentially exposing

:57:05.:57:10.

them to further risk -- abused partners. The Ministry of Justice

:57:11.:57:17.

child arrangements and contact order domestic violence and harm but a

:57:18.:57:21.

clear onus on the family courts to put the safety and best interests of

:57:22.:57:25.

the child first when considering child arrangement orders in cases

:57:26.:57:31.

where domestic violence or abuse has occurred. This guidance is, you

:57:32.:57:38.

would think, simple common sense. Unfortunately, it is not always

:57:39.:57:44.

properly implemented. Family courts understandably take the view that a

:57:45.:57:47.

child should have sustained contact with both parents. Clearly in the

:57:48.:57:52.

majority of cases this could be the desired outcome. The problem arises

:57:53.:57:55.

in many cases where domestic violence is a factor. Where contact

:57:56.:58:02.

with an abusive parent is likely to lead to further harm to that child,

:58:03.:58:08.

but where this is outweighed by the perceived importance of maintaining

:58:09.:58:11.

contact with both mother and father. In other words, the belief that a

:58:12.:58:16.

child's best interests are for them to have safe contact with both of

:58:17.:58:21.

their parents. Although usually the case, it has become an article of

:58:22.:58:24.

faith from which family courts find it difficult to deviate, even for

:58:25.:58:31.

the child's own safety. What's more, this is skewing of priorities

:58:32.:58:34.

encouraged in part by legislation, the children and families Act 2014

:58:35.:58:41.

and in law the principle of contact with both parents as best for

:58:42.:58:45.

children. While this is certainly the case for the majority, it does

:58:46.:58:49.

not recognise that in circumstances where a parent has a history of

:58:50.:58:53.

domestic violence such contact can put a child in harms way. Whenever

:58:54.:58:59.

there are allegations of domestic abuse, there must be a serious

:59:00.:59:02.

assessment authorised by the courts and carried out by experts of the

:59:03.:59:09.

implications that this has by the -- for the child and the safety of the

:59:10.:59:13.

non-abusive parent. For too long the safety of the partner and the

:59:14.:59:17.

children have been viewed as two separate matters by the court. We

:59:18.:59:21.

must encourage a courtroom culture which use them as part of the same

:59:22.:59:26.

issue. Womens Aid are calling for national oversight of the

:59:27.:59:32.

implementation of practice direction 12J and I urge the Minister to look

:59:33.:59:36.

carefully at how we can bring about a shift in the thinking of family

:59:37.:59:40.

court so child safety is put back at its heart. It is not just the

:59:41.:59:44.

decisions of the family courts that are in need of scrutiny but also

:59:45.:59:48.

their working practices. Whilst victims of domestic abuse can be

:59:49.:59:51.

provided with a number of protections when in criminal courts,

:59:52.:59:55.

such as giving evidence from behind a screen or through videolink, these

:59:56.:00:00.

are not available in family courts. On top of this, thanks to the

:00:01.:00:27.

Government's cuts to legal aid, more and more people going to family

:00:28.:00:31.

courts are forced through lack of funds to represent themselves rather

:00:32.:00:33.

than take on a solicitor. The National Audit Office estimates that

:00:34.:00:36.

there has been an 80% increase in the number of cases taken to the

:00:37.:00:38.

family courts where one of the parties is not represented by legal

:00:39.:00:41.

professional, and a 30% increase in cases where neither party has such

:00:42.:00:43.

representation. The upshot of all this is that it is increasingly

:00:44.:00:45.

common for victims of domestic abuse not only to have to face their

:00:46.:00:48.

abusers in court but be directly questioned by them as well.

:00:49.:00:50.

Thankfully there is a greater understanding now than there was in

:00:51.:00:52.

the past that abuse within relationships does not only take the

:00:53.:00:54.

form of physical violence. We know that intimidation, and coercion, are

:00:55.:00:57.

just as much a feature. It takes a great deal of courage for those

:00:58.:01:01.

suffering from domestic abuse to break free from these relationships,

:01:02.:01:05.

and we must ensure that they are offered all the support and

:01:06.:01:09.

encouragement that they need. What they should not have to put up with

:01:10.:01:14.

is basing their abuse's questioning directly in court and being placed

:01:15.:01:18.

in a position where the intimidation they have escaped from is inflicted

:01:19.:01:22.

on them once again. The protection that applies to criminal Court

:01:23.:01:25.

should likewise apply to family court and I trust the Minister will

:01:26.:01:30.

take some time to reflect on the ordeal that appearing in these

:01:31.:01:33.

courts so often is for the victims of abuse. But, above all, I urge the

:01:34.:01:39.

Minister to instigate a full review as other honourable members have

:01:40.:01:43.

called for based on the report submitted by Womens Aid and the APPG

:01:44.:01:49.

on domestic violence, because we must ensure that Jack and Paul and

:01:50.:01:52.

all of the victims are never forgotten. Thank you.

:01:53.:02:01.

I would first like to pay a huge debt to the speakers who have

:02:02.:02:05.

preceded me in this debate, particularly the Member for

:02:06.:02:08.

Penistone who spoke about the heartbreaking case of the

:02:09.:02:11.

constituent Claire Throssell, I am in awe of her strengths in the face

:02:12.:02:15.

of unimaginable trauma and I am glad we can be part of putting Jack and

:02:16.:02:19.

Paul's names on the record here today. I would also like to pay

:02:20.:02:23.

tribute to the amazing Womens Aid organisations across the violence,

:02:24.:02:28.

particularly in Scotland to assisted me in preparing for this debate and

:02:29.:02:32.

work to support women through the ordeal of domestic abuse. They have

:02:33.:02:35.

told me child contact issues are still a huge issue for them. I also

:02:36.:02:41.

pay credit to Glasgow Womens Aid and Rape Crisis centreboard work they do

:02:42.:02:43.

to support women which includes going through the court process. I

:02:44.:02:48.

long for the day, as I'm sure we all do, where women and children can

:02:49.:02:52.

live without fear but until then I'm so glad these organisations and

:02:53.:02:56.

committed staff and volunteers carry out their vital, life-saving work.

:02:57.:02:59.

The Scottish Government is responsible for child protection in

:03:00.:03:03.

Scotland and members may be aware there is a debate going on in the

:03:04.:03:08.

Scottish Parliament today also on new proposed domestic abuse

:03:09.:03:09.

legislation which will build on the excellent work. There is ongoing

:03:10.:03:18.

work on gender based violence and I can recommend all of those involved.

:03:19.:03:26.

The proposed bill in Scotland will create a new offence of domestic

:03:27.:03:30.

abuse which include psychological abuse such as coercive and

:03:31.:03:33.

controlling behaviour which can be difficult to deal with under the

:03:34.:03:36.

existing laws that we have. It will also ensure appropriate penalties

:03:37.:03:43.

are available and find a range of measures to modify the justice

:03:44.:03:47.

system to respond to domestic abuse. We already have in Scotland the

:03:48.:03:52.

victims and witnesses Act which allows special measures in court

:03:53.:03:55.

automatically in criminal cases and the application in some cases can be

:03:56.:04:00.

really important, I have spoken to a number of organisations involved in

:04:01.:04:03.

this and it helps to have these measures in place. The basis for the

:04:04.:04:08.

system is good but sadly Scotland is not immune from the difficulties

:04:09.:04:12.

described so far in this debate. Court processes are not yet perfect

:04:13.:04:16.

and this is reflected in the experiences of women and children

:04:17.:04:20.

going through the system. Scottish Womens Aid tell me there remain

:04:21.:04:23.

concerned by the situation in court where women are not believed, where

:04:24.:04:28.

their experience of domestic abuse is downplayed. The significance of

:04:29.:04:32.

being able to tell your story and be believed is huge. Women are

:04:33.:04:35.

consistently undermined by the abuse they have suffered, their confidence

:04:36.:04:39.

is shattered, getting as far as going to court is a massive ordeal.

:04:40.:04:44.

The legal process then removing any last part of dignity a woman has is

:04:45.:04:50.

unforgivable. There also exists this artificial separation as the Member

:04:51.:04:53.

for Penistone and others have mentioned between an abuser's

:04:54.:04:56.

actions and ability to carry out their role as a parent. It is seen

:04:57.:05:01.

as entirely logical to most people that someone of a mind to abuse,

:05:02.:05:07.

threaten, undermined, rape and control their partner, their ability

:05:08.:05:09.

to care appropriately for their children would come into question.

:05:10.:05:14.

That is not always the case and the notion that a court would decree

:05:15.:05:17.

that contact with the parent who demonstrated capacity for violence

:05:18.:05:22.

is more important than the safety of the child absolutely terrifies me. I

:05:23.:05:29.

have had testimony sent to me by Women Against Rape which I will, in

:05:30.:05:32.

the interest of time, addressed later on, but the prospect of having

:05:33.:05:37.

to deal regularly with an abusive partner is incredibly daunting.

:05:38.:05:41.

Scottish Womens Aid have said the court process denies women and

:05:42.:05:44.

children their right to be protected and recover from abuse. The

:05:45.:05:48.

processes and decisions in our courts are guilty of

:05:49.:05:53.

re-victimisation and this issue of re-victimisation is a very important

:05:54.:05:56.

one and one that we need to look at a cross Government, across the

:05:57.:06:01.

practices that we have. Concentrix was mentioned earlier and the fact

:06:02.:06:04.

that they put people in a position where they are being re-victimised,

:06:05.:06:09.

benefits tribunal scampered people in a situation where their

:06:10.:06:13.

experiences are called into account. The DWP are in that position as well

:06:14.:06:18.

and I mentioned here as I have mentioned before the issue around

:06:19.:06:23.

universal credit and household payments, I mentioned the two child

:06:24.:06:27.

policy and the rate clause and a Government Minister can tell me in a

:06:28.:06:31.

meeting that he bored women suffering domestic abuse should just

:06:32.:06:36.

flee is deeply, deeply worrying and the Government needs to reflect

:06:37.:06:39.

about how we value women and children and how we make sure that

:06:40.:06:43.

they are protected at every aspect of their lives. The abuse of

:06:44.:06:48.

children of course must also be taken into account because they

:06:49.:06:51.

experience that trauma of domestic abuse and can carry that through

:06:52.:06:55.

their whole lives. Their voices are not always heard as they should be.

:06:56.:07:00.

There is a new project called Power up, power-down, under way with the

:07:01.:07:04.

Scottish Young people and Childrens' Commissioner in partnership with

:07:05.:07:07.

Womens Aid and this has the potential to change the way court

:07:08.:07:10.

processes are carried out to allow young people's voices to be heard

:07:11.:07:14.

and allowed their chance to determine what would make them feel

:07:15.:07:18.

safest and what their needs and desires are. They don't want to be

:07:19.:07:22.

put in a position where they are in fear of their lives, where they were

:07:23.:07:26.

really about the impact of them visiting an abusive parent on their

:07:27.:07:29.

mother as well. Finally I would like to read a card from the Recounting

:07:30.:07:35.

Women project which agencies in Scotland have carried out. It is a

:07:36.:07:40.

participate we photo voice product allowing women to share their

:07:41.:07:43.

personal experiences of domestic abuse and it is online as well. I

:07:44.:07:48.

quote, this is the Sheriff Court where I experienced so much

:07:49.:07:53.

injustice. From unsupervised visits, how much abuse can a father do to

:07:54.:07:59.

his child, that puts his child in the streets, changes the locks, put

:08:00.:08:04.

their clothes outside in bin bags? They force the children to see their

:08:05.:08:07.

dad while I am trying to help them forget the trauma. I asked ministers

:08:08.:08:12.

to reflect on this and for us all to reflect a cross Government how we

:08:13.:08:18.

can help these children to be safe. Keir Starmer. Can I congratulate

:08:19.:08:22.

those who secured this debate and everybody that has spent so long

:08:23.:08:28.

working on this issue in particular the APPG on domestic violence and

:08:29.:08:31.

Womens Aid for raising this issue of how domestic violence victims are

:08:32.:08:37.

dealt with in the family Court. The statistics and examples of domestic

:08:38.:08:40.

abuse, some of which have been given this afternoon, are so continually

:08:41.:08:44.

shocking that we have got a duty to come back to the debate over and

:08:45.:08:48.

over again. I don't intend to repeat anything that anybody has already

:08:49.:08:53.

said, I wanted to address two issues, the first is what has been

:08:54.:08:58.

happening in the criminal courts to make the position better, and to

:08:59.:09:02.

raise the question of why it has not been done in the family courts.

:09:03.:09:07.

Secondly, to go to the question of abuse of process where individuals

:09:08.:09:11.

are clearly using the civil courts for a purpose they were not intended

:09:12.:09:13.

for. There are still problems with

:09:14.:09:24.

criminal courts in dealing with domestic abuse but anybody who has

:09:25.:09:28.

worked on this and across the house, people have worked on this. Will

:09:29.:09:32.

recognise that in the last ten to 15 years, real strides have been made

:09:33.:09:35.

in real difference has taken place in relation to the criminal

:09:36.:09:39.

approach. I want to outline why I think that has happened. This is a

:09:40.:09:45.

time to reflect on the criticism of family courts and to see if it can't

:09:46.:09:50.

be replicated. The first thing is we began to count the cases. Back in

:09:51.:09:55.

2002-3, nobody knew how domestic abuse cases were going into criminal

:09:56.:10:01.

Court. So you couldn't begin to have a policy or strategy. We started

:10:02.:10:06.

counting the cases. If the number of cases where litigants in person are

:10:07.:10:10.

not being counted now in front of family courts, it needs to start.

:10:11.:10:13.

Within that, we need to understand having them may be victims of

:10:14.:10:19.

domestic abuse. Counting them is the starting point. You then need a

:10:20.:10:23.

policy so that everyone who plays a part in the process has a policy

:10:24.:10:27.

that helps them make the right decisions in the area they are

:10:28.:10:30.

responsible for. That happened in the criminal process that ten or 12

:10:31.:10:36.

years ago. Those processes began to be rolled out and they have improved

:10:37.:10:41.

over the years. You need a strategy. The strategy that makes it clear

:10:42.:10:45.

what you are trying to achieve, and that it is proactive and forces

:10:46.:10:50.

things to change. You need leadership. People prepared to go

:10:51.:10:55.

out and change what is going to happen. All of that has helped in

:10:56.:11:00.

the criminal sphere. A lot of people leaning in different ways and when

:11:01.:11:04.

you look at the position and how it has changed. To a position where it

:11:05.:11:09.

is now not recognisable. Independent domestic violence advisers,

:11:10.:11:15.

independent sexual violence advisers are there and are extreme the good

:11:16.:11:19.

and relied on by victims to help them through that part of the

:11:20.:11:24.

process. Specialist courts for domestic violence made a real

:11:25.:11:26.

difference where everybody in the court room was trained and

:11:27.:11:30.

understood the issues. There were separate courts and lists and it was

:11:31.:11:36.

an environment that made it easier to deal with domestic violence

:11:37.:11:41.

cases. Better coordination of support, with groups like women's

:11:42.:11:44.

aid and many others, out there to provide support for victims for the

:11:45.:11:50.

journey they would go through in the courts. And practical measures, that

:11:51.:11:58.

took the strain off the victim. The most important, absolutely making

:11:59.:12:02.

sure that a nine 990 is always secured. The tape of the person who

:12:03.:12:08.

phoned the police to report what has happened. And then, a police officer

:12:09.:12:15.

arriving at the scene with a body camel. Those two elements will

:12:16.:12:19.

secure a conviction in almost every case of domestic abuse. It is

:12:20.:12:24.

amazing that it is not the norm, even in the criminal sphere. If you

:12:25.:12:30.

have that, you would almost certainly be able to prove domestic

:12:31.:12:33.

abuse without strain on the victim, who is the person who has to make

:12:34.:12:37.

the case in court. You can prove it with those bits of evidence. I

:12:38.:12:44.

talked to the APG G, and heard some of the evidence that family courts,

:12:45.:12:48.

I was struck by the fact that it simply would not be tolerated in the

:12:49.:12:51.

criminal courts any more. The special measures are a norm in the

:12:52.:12:55.

criminal courts and it would be thought to be the duty of the

:12:56.:13:00.

prosecutor, defence and the court to make sure those provisions are in

:13:01.:13:04.

place. Those are some of the changes that have taken place that have

:13:05.:13:07.

undoubtedly improve the situation in the criminal courts. I am not saying

:13:08.:13:12.

it is perfect and suggesting that more can't be done but it came about

:13:13.:13:17.

because a number of individuals decided to listen. To what people

:13:18.:13:24.

were saying to them. The honourable member for Hove has mentioned the

:13:25.:13:28.

case of Jane Clough, the terrible case, Penny and John, her parents,

:13:29.:13:34.

came to see me and I sat down and let them tell me what had happened

:13:35.:13:39.

to them in their journey through our courts. It reflected on the

:13:40.:13:43.

organisation I was running and reflected on the criminal justice

:13:44.:13:47.

system for which I am very proud but I listened. Other people listened.

:13:48.:13:52.

You need to listen, that is why today's debate is really important.

:13:53.:13:57.

We need to listen and be not defensive. My experience in criminal

:13:58.:14:01.

justice was the moment your organisation was criticised, you

:14:02.:14:04.

circle the wagons and try to protect what you think is good rather than

:14:05.:14:08.

accepting what might not be so good. We need a number -- nondefensive

:14:09.:14:16.

response, an open response and a determination. Jane parents asked me

:14:17.:14:19.

to go on the journey to change some of the things that have gone wrong

:14:20.:14:24.

with them. I am proud to call them friends and advocates in the

:14:25.:14:27.

continuing journey we are on. There are real lessons here and I look to

:14:28.:14:32.

the front bench opposite, there are real lessons about what has happened

:14:33.:14:35.

in the criminal justice world in the last 15 years and ask westerns as to

:14:36.:14:41.

why some of that cannot be replicated in the family courts and

:14:42.:14:48.

other courts, starting with listening in a nondefensive way and

:14:49.:14:53.

listening to the possibility for change. This is an issue that is

:14:54.:15:01.

rising up the agenda and it is the examples of perpetrators of domestic

:15:02.:15:05.

abuse who then use our courts, criminal and civil but civil is

:15:06.:15:08.

where the torch has not been shone. To continue the perpetration of

:15:09.:15:15.

control and harassment of the victims. I would like to page a bid

:15:16.:15:22.

to Claire Waxman, who has raised this issue on a number of occasions.

:15:23.:15:32.

-- paid tribute. The first is the person who has no interest in the

:15:33.:15:37.

proceedings at all but doing it to ensure the person they are stalking

:15:38.:15:42.

or harassing is forced to come to court to strike their claim out. The

:15:43.:15:50.

court will strike the claims out when the court gets to grips with it

:15:51.:15:54.

as a vexatious claim but the victim has to go to court to argue that it

:15:55.:15:58.

is vexatious. That is all the perpetrator wants. To force someone

:15:59.:16:04.

to come to court. It happened to Clare Waxman and other victims. This

:16:05.:16:09.

can be solved by Christmas, I am busy looking straight across to the

:16:10.:16:13.

opposition front bench, that it ought to be possible, working for

:16:14.:16:16.

the senior judiciary to devise a way to ensure these cases have a special

:16:17.:16:21.

strike at procedure that doesn't require the victim to come to court

:16:22.:16:28.

to take the initiative. To have some other third party to do it. With a

:16:29.:16:32.

month or two's hard work, a system could be put in place to deal with

:16:33.:16:37.

that and simply put that problem on one side with some real courage and

:16:38.:16:43.

determination. The second is more difficult. That is where the

:16:44.:16:48.

perpetrator has an interest, maybe a child or some other aspect,

:16:49.:16:53.

therefore it is not possible to say that the individual simply shouldn't

:16:54.:16:57.

be allowed in court at all. In those circumstances, we would look at the

:16:58.:17:01.

special measures, support, a different way of arranging family

:17:02.:17:03.

courts and other courts to ensure they are not used for an ulterior

:17:04.:17:09.

motive. There is growing evidence that that is the case. Those are

:17:10.:17:15.

difficult cases but it must be possible to have support for victims

:17:16.:17:19.

and special measures and a more proactive role for judges. A big

:17:20.:17:21.

change in the criminal courts is that judges began to be more

:17:22.:17:29.

proactive and would feel a duty to provide a better situation for

:17:30.:17:33.

victims in court. These issues are not going to go away, they need to

:17:34.:17:38.

be solved, I think across the house, but I think now it takes listening,

:17:39.:17:42.

non-defensiveness and commitment to bring about change. In the criminal

:17:43.:17:48.

sphere, that has happened and it needn't take 15 years but lessons

:17:49.:17:53.

from one jurisdiction can be taken to the other. As often is the case

:17:54.:18:01.

in the main chamber, I am usually the last big. I look forward to

:18:02.:18:06.

making a contribution and can I first say how touched I was by the

:18:07.:18:13.

contributions of all the Right honourable and honourable members of

:18:14.:18:15.

this house. Particularly the honourable lady who set the scene

:18:16.:18:26.

from Penistone and Stockbridge. To say this as well, other members,

:18:27.:18:32.

through the stories they have as MPs, relating to their own

:18:33.:18:35.

constituents, have very eloquently and powerfully in this chamber today

:18:36.:18:40.

have put their cases forward and it is good to have those on record as

:18:41.:18:53.

well. Many will have felt the heartache and no stories today. I

:18:54.:18:59.

would like to speak from a Northern Ireland angle as I always do in this

:19:00.:19:02.

house. The figures in Northern Ireland, I wish I could say they

:19:03.:19:05.

were better but unfortunately they are not. When you hear some of the

:19:06.:19:11.

stats, you will understand what some of the problems are that we have

:19:12.:19:20.

back home. It requires much thought and consideration and affects far

:19:21.:19:22.

too many homes and families in the United Kingdom. The statistics are

:19:23.:19:27.

shocking, during this contribution, for myself and others from across

:19:28.:19:33.

the UK, police will have received ten calls at least regarding

:19:34.:19:35.

domestic abuse, that is simply horrific to me. Multiply those ten

:19:36.:19:40.

calls for every member who has spoken and you'll get an idea of the

:19:41.:19:44.

number of domestic abuse cases that have taken place since this debate

:19:45.:19:49.

started just after 1p. In Northern Ireland in 2014-15, 11 2000

:19:50.:19:58.

incidents reported to the P S and I. Police responded to domestic

:19:59.:20:05.

incidents every day. -- P S N ire. I am not sure the reasons for that,

:20:06.:20:08.

people with much more knowledge will explain that. It may be down to a

:20:09.:20:15.

conflict of some 30 years and may be down to the economic changes that

:20:16.:20:18.

have taken place. It is certainly down to society that there was peer

:20:19.:20:21.

pressure and all of the things that happened have come up on us and make

:20:22.:20:30.

relationships difficult to make safe and compatible. Some 30,000 domestic

:20:31.:20:38.

abuse crimes were committed, 13% of all crime in Northern Ireland. That

:20:39.:20:42.

puts it in perspective as well, looking at those figures. In that

:20:43.:20:46.

year, six murders had a domestic abuse motivation. That represented

:20:47.:20:51.

37.5% of all murders in Northern Ireland. Domestic abuse in Northern

:20:52.:20:57.

Ireland, statistically, is a very negative and the figures indicate

:20:58.:21:03.

that. Over two and a half times as many domestic abuse crimes, of

:21:04.:21:10.

13,000 were much higher than drug offences. We know how important it

:21:11.:21:13.

is to deal with drugs but in that period of time, there were 5000 drug

:21:14.:21:19.

offences and 13,426 domestic abuse cases. There were more domestic

:21:20.:21:26.

abuse cases than burglary, which topped out at 9000. There were 2734

:21:27.:21:39.

offences of rape, again, very worrying figures. There were multi

:21:40.:21:46.

agency risk assessment cases have been discussed, of which, some

:21:47.:21:55.

10,000 856 children living in the household, 7009 and 55 cases, the

:21:56.:21:59.

victims were female. I want to give some of the sample is, without

:22:00.:22:12.

mentioning any names. A case of one lady in in my constituency, she has

:22:13.:22:24.

two children. Her husband and her became estranged and he became

:22:25.:22:29.

violent. He would wait at the back door one night with a sledgehammer

:22:30.:22:33.

and smashed the door. The police responded very quickly, within five

:22:34.:22:37.

minutes they were there. And they arrested him and took him away. That

:22:38.:22:43.

relationship broke down but not only is it the violence perpetrated on

:22:44.:22:47.

the doorstep, in many cases, it is the trauma and the emotional

:22:48.:22:53.

situation for the woman and the children herself that macro

:22:54.:22:54.

themselves. Another case of an ex-partner who

:22:55.:23:09.

was pursued by her ex-at her home, work and on the streets. Almost to a

:23:10.:23:17.

case where she was fearing for her life. She took her own life, we have

:23:18.:23:24.

to look at the side-effects of what happens. That is one of the things

:23:25.:23:31.

that happen. Stop me if I am wrong but there is a massive issue across

:23:32.:23:37.

the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

:23:38.:23:40.

and we must make changes to handle this in the best way possible. In

:23:41.:23:48.

2014, a report found that the police response to domestic abuse was not

:23:49.:23:52.

good enough and that the responses were inconsistent. An inspection in

:23:53.:23:57.

2015 found some positive changes had taken place but there was still room

:23:58.:24:02.

for improvement. That is why we are in this chamber today visiting the

:24:03.:24:08.

issue again and I know the Minister and his response will give an idea

:24:09.:24:12.

of how that improvement has taken place.

:24:13.:24:19.

There has been a theme throughout, that everyone is particular to their

:24:20.:24:31.

own person but nonetheless they do constitute the term of domestic

:24:32.:24:35.

violence and it covers a multitude of sins. Each case should be treated

:24:36.:24:40.

in an individual way and there must be a scheme in place that allows it

:24:41.:24:49.

to happen. When many cases do not end up in court as the victim is

:24:50.:24:52.

unwilling to testify and that happens in many of the cases that I

:24:53.:24:58.

have in my office, they fall out, they drift apart, then back together

:24:59.:25:05.

again and the difficulties continue with all the stories and apologies

:25:06.:25:09.

that the partner makes towards the lady concerned. There are some that

:25:10.:25:14.

do not find the strength to face their abuser and it is for them that

:25:15.:25:19.

I stand today and ask how much more we can do for them. I understand

:25:20.:25:24.

there has to be changes to the statue of limitations and that has

:25:25.:25:28.

to be welcomed, but again what more can we do on that side? We need to

:25:29.:25:35.

recognise that domestic violence is not against women and children.

:25:36.:25:41.

Women's Aid have released their stats of the year before which paint

:25:42.:25:44.

a picture of the different scenarios that they deal with everyday and

:25:45.:25:52.

with this debate today would concur. The helpline which they run and they

:25:53.:26:05.

received some 27,000 calls, the majority continue to be from women,

:26:06.:26:10.

the majority are women by far. The percentage of male callers rose by

:26:11.:26:17.

some 2.2%. There were 611 sexual violence calls on the line.

:26:18.:26:25.

Sometimes men themselves also have to contact the organisation and we

:26:26.:26:31.

want to put that focus into this debate. 262 calls came from foreign

:26:32.:26:40.

nationals. 35 calls came from the LGBT community. 58% of women callers

:26:41.:26:49.

disclosed mental health issues. 226 children were referred to Women's

:26:50.:26:54.

Aid refugees. I would like to pay tribute to Women's Aid and what they

:26:55.:27:00.

do in my constituency. They are marvellous, they are very responsive

:27:01.:27:06.

and very able to, and I always encourage the Northern Ireland

:27:07.:27:12.

assembly to give money there as well. I can understand there appears

:27:13.:27:22.

to be an almost overwhelming task of creating a system which can help

:27:23.:27:25.

different types of domestic violence, there is one thing that is

:27:26.:27:29.

needed and that is the case of compassion. We need to ensure that

:27:30.:27:37.

all responders understand that we cannot understand why some victim 's

:27:38.:27:42.

go back to their abusers. They deserve and need no less help and

:27:43.:27:46.

compassion than anyone else. People need to know there is a safe place

:27:47.:27:49.

and help available any time and that we have a system in place that will

:27:50.:27:53.

aid people in getting their lives together. Women's Aid, which is an

:27:54.:28:01.

independent body, the housing, the police, social services and all the

:28:02.:28:04.

organisations and charities that work together, a big thank you to

:28:05.:28:10.

all of them. In conclusion, this is a big problem that is complex but is

:28:11.:28:17.

something we must indeed in this House that once the change necessary

:28:18.:28:22.

for those who need it most. We must do our best to make it better for

:28:23.:28:28.

them and it is my belief the hard work must begin in this place today.

:28:29.:28:37.

Thank you. I want to start off by congratulating my honourable friend

:28:38.:28:42.

the member for Penistone and stocks bridge along with the chair of the

:28:43.:28:50.

women and equality committee, the member for Basingstoke and all the

:28:51.:28:55.

members who have together secured this vital debate today. I would

:28:56.:29:00.

also like to thank the backbench business committee for forwarding

:29:01.:29:03.

members time in the chamber to discuss this vital issue in the

:29:04.:29:12.

chamber. Listening to today's discussion, we can all agree that

:29:13.:29:16.

the contributions have been powerful, moving, thought-provoking

:29:17.:29:21.

and well-informed. I also want to take this opportunity to pay tribute

:29:22.:29:28.

as other members have done to Claire Throssell and thank her for all her

:29:29.:29:35.

work with Women's Aid in trying to ensure that other mothers are

:29:36.:29:40.

protected in a way which tragically Claire and her children were not.

:29:41.:29:46.

The issues that were discussed today have been much in focus in recent

:29:47.:29:50.

weeks and months as has been mentioned by my honourable friend

:29:51.:29:53.

the member for Birmingham Yardley, the storyline in the archers has

:29:54.:29:59.

dominated the news cycle in the last week and it is inspiring that a

:30:00.:30:03.

charity appeal inspired by this radio show and that storyline has

:30:04.:30:09.

raised over ?150,000 for the charity. I read this week the tragic

:30:10.:30:17.

case of Mary Shipston whose estranged father murdered her before

:30:18.:30:23.

taking his own life. She and her mother had fled a life of violence

:30:24.:30:29.

and were living in a safe house. It was an act described by the serious

:30:30.:30:34.

case review which examined what happened as to quote a spite

:30:35.:30:38.

killing, cynically designed to take the child from her mother and leave

:30:39.:30:46.

an indelible memory of Mary's death. Another high-profile case was the

:30:47.:30:51.

case mentioned by the honourable member for Sutton and Sheen, the

:30:52.:30:54.

case of Ellie Butler who was murdered by her father following her

:30:55.:31:00.

return to her parents. These events are events which no mother, no

:31:01.:31:08.

family should endure and it is important as my honourable friend

:31:09.:31:12.

for Penistone and Stockbridge told the backbench business committee

:31:13.:31:15.

when she applied for this debate that the voices of these women are

:31:16.:31:21.

heard, and I want to give a special congratulations to my honourable

:31:22.:31:26.

friend the member for Penistone and Stockbridge because she today in her

:31:27.:31:31.

speech fulfilled what she promised, she made sure that the voices of

:31:32.:31:36.

these women were heard and in fact she puts on Parliamentary record the

:31:37.:31:41.

very words of clear that we heard earlier today. I want to

:31:42.:31:46.

congratulate Women's Aid on publishing this urgent and important

:31:47.:31:51.

work, 19 charges homicides 12 years on from a similar shocking report.

:31:52.:31:58.

Much time may have passed since the publication of that report 12 years

:31:59.:32:03.

ago and although progress has been made, in respect of domestic

:32:04.:32:08.

violence and in respect of family courts, much more as we have heard

:32:09.:32:13.

today needs to be done. That 2004 report influenced the landscape of

:32:14.:32:19.

the family courts on its publication and there is every reason to hope

:32:20.:32:23.

following the debate today that this latest report will have a big effect

:32:24.:32:29.

also and as we have heard from my honourable friend the member for

:32:30.:32:36.

Hove, there does need to be a transformation of our family courts.

:32:37.:32:39.

The court system and the family courts need to be an arena for

:32:40.:32:44.

justice not a weapon which those who have been wronged can seek to

:32:45.:32:50.

inflict further pain on those who have been wronged. The case studies

:32:51.:32:55.

described in the report are truly shocking. All the perpetrators are

:32:56.:32:59.

fathers to the children they murdered and more in the context of

:33:00.:33:04.

child contact whether informally or formally arranged between the

:33:05.:33:08.

parties. The cases to which the Women's Aid report refer ten to show

:33:09.:33:13.

a deeply, deeply concerning pattern in which each of the fathers

:33:14.:33:17.

involved were actually known to agencies as perpetrators of domestic

:33:18.:33:26.

abuse. The report makes clear that its findings show a culture of

:33:27.:33:31.

contact to all costs has arisen unfortunately in our family courts

:33:32.:33:38.

and yet as long ago as 2006, the then Lord Justice Wall said in

:33:39.:33:43.

response to the first report from Women's Aid on this subject, and

:33:44.:33:47.

these are his words, it is in my view high time that the family

:33:48.:33:51.

justice system abandoned any reliance on the proposition that a

:33:52.:33:56.

man can have a history of violence to the mother of his children but

:33:57.:34:02.

nonetheless be a good father. It is against that background, against

:34:03.:34:08.

that background that is particularly alarming that Women's Aid has found

:34:09.:34:13.

that abuse of a mother by a partner or husband is still being viewed by

:34:14.:34:18.

the justice system is somehow a separate issue from the child's

:34:19.:34:26.

safety. Anyone reading this report would surely agree that a review is

:34:27.:34:32.

fundamentally necessary, but as Shadow Justice Secretary I was

:34:33.:34:35.

struck in particular by the barriers to ensuring that granting of child

:34:36.:34:42.

contact is safe as identified by the report. Access to justice is now

:34:43.:34:50.

access at all if it does not also include access to advice and access

:34:51.:34:55.

to representation as my honourable friend the members for Sheffield has

:34:56.:35:02.

mentioned by the way. The coalition government has inflicted large cuts

:35:03.:35:05.

on the legal aid budget and private family law cases were no exception

:35:06.:35:15.

to this damaging trend. Although the Government introduced interim

:35:16.:35:18.

regulations for family legal aid earlier this year, the picture is

:35:19.:35:22.

scarcely changed. Those seeking publicly funded legal representation

:35:23.:35:29.

must provide evidence and the time limit for that evidence has been

:35:30.:35:33.

extended from two years to five years, but many will be left

:35:34.:35:37.

wondering why there is as we have heard today a time limit at all. It

:35:38.:35:41.

may be more appropriate for an assessment of relevance to be made

:35:42.:35:45.

rather than an arbitrary period of time. But it's the provision of

:35:46.:35:53.

evidence itself which causes difficulty and this report makes

:35:54.:35:56.

clear that much of the required evidence is either unavailable or

:35:57.:36:03.

unattainable. Practitioner groups I have met with also report reluctance

:36:04.:36:08.

by some professionals to put the required evidence in writing. Those

:36:09.:36:12.

that do sometimes find their form returned because it is not in the

:36:13.:36:17.

prescribed formats and the process begins yet again. At the time of the

:36:18.:36:23.

legal aid sentencing and punishment of offenders act 2012, the

:36:24.:36:28.

Government committed to a review of its effects within three to five

:36:29.:36:36.

years. To date not only has a review not been published, no such review

:36:37.:36:42.

has started. It is alarming that some 38% of women when not in a

:36:43.:36:48.

position to obtain the necessary evidence to persuade the legal aid

:36:49.:36:54.

agency that as a victims of domestic violence they should be eligible for

:36:55.:36:59.

legal aid, and over a quarter of those women had no option other than

:37:00.:37:05.

to represent themselves at court as litigants in person. That can mean

:37:06.:37:10.

as my honourable friend the member for Great Grimsby has outlined being

:37:11.:37:14.

cross-examined for by the perpetrators accused in court and

:37:15.:37:20.

the stress of having the sole responsibility for navigating the

:37:21.:37:24.

complex case law and legal processes. As my honourable friend

:37:25.:37:29.

the member for Birmingham Yardley mentioned, in the criminal courts,

:37:30.:37:33.

where a defendant has no legal representation, that defendant will

:37:34.:37:39.

be prevented and quite right also from cross examining a complainant

:37:40.:37:44.

who alleges domestic violence. Instead the court will appoint an

:37:45.:37:49.

advocate to conduct cross-examination paid for by public

:37:50.:37:53.

funds. If that is good enough in the can bus system, why is it not good

:37:54.:38:00.

enough in the family court system? At her first justice committee

:38:01.:38:04.

appearance last week, the new Justice Secretary stated that one of

:38:05.:38:08.

her three objectives was to realise a justice system which works for

:38:09.:38:13.

all, something with which we can all agree. If that is the case, the

:38:14.:38:18.

Secretary of State must turn her mind rapidly to the experiences we

:38:19.:38:23.

have heard today, the experiences of those in the family courts because

:38:24.:38:26.

the clear evidence of this report is that it is not working for all. To

:38:27.:38:33.

that end, I was disappointed to hear that the all party Parliamentary

:38:34.:38:36.

group on domestic violence has received no response to date to its

:38:37.:38:42.

report on domestic abuse, child contact and the family court and I

:38:43.:38:49.

do want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of the

:38:50.:38:52.

all-party Parliamentary group and its chair the member for Birmingham

:38:53.:38:55.

Yardley. I hope that they knew Justice

:38:56.:39:03.

Secretary will deem more. I hope she will take on the task of responding

:39:04.:39:08.

directly to the work of the APPG and considering carefully the seven

:39:09.:39:13.

recommendations that the eight PBG's report makes. As with the Women's

:39:14.:39:22.

Aid report, it emphasises the need for better adherence, to practice

:39:23.:39:26.

direction 12 J Wycherley as we've heard to protecting the child and

:39:27.:39:30.

the parent with whom they are living and to ensure the best interests of

:39:31.:39:37.

the child are elevated above other considerations when determining

:39:38.:39:43.

child contacts. Combating violence against women and girls must be, as

:39:44.:39:50.

my honourable friend, so eloquently outlined a priority for all parties.

:39:51.:39:57.

Labour's general election manifesto committed to establishing a commit

:39:58.:40:05.

up on sexual violence to influence priorities across all Government of

:40:06.:40:08.

our apartments. We said we would publish a violence against women and

:40:09.:40:12.

girls Bill and provide more stable central funding for women's refugees

:40:13.:40:17.

and rape crisis centres. As my honourable friend mentioned today,

:40:18.:40:21.

we do welcome the Government's change of position when it comes to

:40:22.:40:29.

women's refuge and the changes to housing benefit but fundamentally,

:40:30.:40:32.

the Government should heed this motion and the Government should

:40:33.:40:36.

implement a review as soon as possible. I commend this motion to

:40:37.:40:46.

the House. Thank you. I want not be taking interventions in an attempt

:40:47.:40:49.

to try to get through all of the questions that have been asked in

:40:50.:40:53.

this important debate so please forgive me and I do not at all of

:40:54.:40:57.

them I will be writing to you. Let me begin thanking the honourable

:40:58.:41:02.

member and other members or securing this debate. On a personal level, I

:41:03.:41:08.

believe that the member or Penistone and Stockbridge is an impressive

:41:09.:41:12.

member of Parliament and her core decency which was visibly display

:41:13.:41:17.

today came through and I think that is why she is such a valued member

:41:18.:41:23.

of this House. I recognise the strength of feeling on the subject

:41:24.:41:27.

of domestic abuse and the importance honourable members from all sides

:41:28.:41:32.

attach to addressing it. I think the more we talk about this issue be

:41:33.:41:39.

better, I'm very grateful for the opportunity to discuss such a

:41:40.:41:43.

pressing issue, not least because in clinical practice I have encountered

:41:44.:41:46.

a number of cases of domestic violence will stop they have been

:41:47.:41:51.

primarily women but I must say there are also men as well and I think

:41:52.:41:54.

there should be mentioned. I do think it is important today that we

:41:55.:41:59.

have contributed from both men and women. This is a problem that likes

:42:00.:42:02.

our society and we are all responsible for sorting it out. --

:42:03.:42:11.

lights. As the prime is a clear last week, tackling such abuse is a

:42:12.:42:15.

priority for the Government. This debate centres on an important

:42:16.:42:19.

report published in January of this year by Women's Aid, the report

:42:20.:42:24.

entitled 19 child homicides, calls on the Government to review the

:42:25.:42:27.

treatment of expense of victims of domestic abuse in the family law

:42:28.:42:32.

courts, it examines a number of serious case reviews published in

:42:33.:42:36.

the ten years up to 2015, all involving children who were killed

:42:37.:42:39.

by their fathers. 19 children in total. The fathers in question all

:42:40.:42:46.

had access to their children through formal or informal contact

:42:47.:42:49.

arrangements. At this point can I mention the story that the member

:42:50.:42:53.

for Penistone Stockbridge vividly described, I gathered the mother

:42:54.:43:01.

Claire is here, the story of the loss of Jack and Paul horrified as.

:43:02.:43:05.

I am in awe of her courage, not just because she is here today but in an

:43:06.:43:09.

attempt to find a positive outcome to such an appalling tragedy

:43:10.:43:15.

deserves the respect of all. The report by Women's Aid makes for

:43:16.:43:19.

harrowing reading. No child should ever die all live in such dreadful

:43:20.:43:23.

circumstances and it is incumbent on all of us to consider whether more

:43:24.:43:26.

can be done to prevent such tragedies. The Women's Aid report

:43:27.:43:30.

underlines the need to brighter as the child's best interest in child

:43:31.:43:34.

contacts cases involving domestic abuse and to make sure that the main

:43:35.:43:38.

roads are properly considered. The law is clear on this. The family

:43:39.:43:44.

court overriding duty is the welfare of the child. In March of this year,

:43:45.:43:48.

the Government launched a new strategy on violence against women

:43:49.:43:51.

and girls, we committed ?18 million of funding and set up a

:43:52.:43:55.

comprehensive action plan. The Ministry of Justice is playing a

:43:56.:43:58.

central role while there remains much work to be done, we have

:43:59.:44:03.

already made progress. We are working closely with the Home Office

:44:04.:44:07.

to protect victims, including the new offence of coercive control, new

:44:08.:44:11.

stalking laws and domestic violence protection orders. This year we

:44:12.:44:16.

allocated around ?68 million to police and crime commission to

:44:17.:44:18.

support victims of crime, including victims of domestic abuse. Earlier

:44:19.:44:25.

today, we announced plans to allow vulnerable, intimidated witnesses to

:44:26.:44:29.

be cross examined earlier in the criminal progressed to digital

:44:30.:44:31.

recording. As well as improving the quality of evidence provided by such

:44:32.:44:35.

witnesses, they should make the extremes of giving evidence less

:44:36.:44:40.

traumatic. This Government's work to improve the criminal justice

:44:41.:44:43.

response to domestic abuse is also beginning to bear fruit. The Crown

:44:44.:44:46.

Prosecution Service last week reported that number the prosecution

:44:47.:44:50.

in convictions for domestic abuse are now the highest levels. More

:44:51.:44:56.

victims of the injustice. We in the Ministry of Justice remain committed

:44:57.:45:00.

to working with partners and with the CPS and the Home Office, in

:45:01.:45:03.

particular to respond to domestic abuse. But our role does not end

:45:04.:45:07.

there. The Ministry of Justice is acutely aware of the particular

:45:08.:45:11.

responsibilities it has to support victims of domestic abuse going to

:45:12.:45:14.

the family justice system. The issues at stake in family

:45:15.:45:19.

proceedings are sensitive and often complex and the court decision can

:45:20.:45:23.

have far reaching invitation for the individuals involved, particularly

:45:24.:45:28.

children. Domestic abuse only exacerbate an already traumatic

:45:29.:45:31.

situation. We have therefore taken a number of steps to make sure the

:45:32.:45:35.

victims of domestic abuse who find themselves in the family justice

:45:36.:45:37.

system have the support and production may need. We have

:45:38.:45:42.

protected legal aid for individuals seeking protection from abusers, we

:45:43.:45:47.

are investing in the courts take to improve the physical state of family

:45:48.:45:50.

court and emotional support available to users. We have placed

:45:51.:45:54.

renewed emphasis on training that those who work in the family justice

:45:55.:45:58.

system. Where arrangements have been found wanting, we have taken action.

:45:59.:46:02.

For example, when the Court of Appeal ruled earlier this year that

:46:03.:46:05.

elements of the evidence required for making legal aid available to

:46:06.:46:08.

victims of domestic abuse in private family cases were invalid, we change

:46:09.:46:13.

the regulation as an interim measure. In parallel, we began work

:46:14.:46:18.

to explore fully the issues at play in these cases. We are determined

:46:19.:46:22.

that victims of domestic abuse should be able to access the legal

:46:23.:46:26.

aid when they needed and we want to better understand the extremes of

:46:27.:46:29.

victims in this situation is so that we can be sure we have workable

:46:30.:46:33.

arrangements for the longer term. Over the summer we have been working

:46:34.:46:38.

collaboratively with domestic abuse support groups, legal representative

:46:39.:46:41.

bodies and colleagues across Government to gather information on

:46:42.:46:45.

the legal aid evidence requirements. I for one welcome this collaborative

:46:46.:46:49.

approach to the work and would like to see adopted on other issues. We

:46:50.:46:54.

are not complacent. We know there is room for improvement and we are

:46:55.:46:57.

working closely with the judiciary in particular to consider what

:46:58.:47:03.

additional productions may be necessary for vulnerable victims and

:47:04.:47:05.

witnesses in the family justice system. Another important report on

:47:06.:47:12.

domestic abuse was recently published by the all-party

:47:13.:47:14.

Parliamentary agreement. It highlighted a number of issues and

:47:15.:47:17.

we are examining these carefully. I was struck in it by the unfavourable

:47:18.:47:23.

comparison the APPG reports made between the treatment of domestic

:47:24.:47:27.

abuse in the family justice system and that of the criminal justice

:47:28.:47:31.

system which has done a great deal in recent years to develop a

:47:32.:47:35.

coherent systemwide response to the matter. I think it is fair to say

:47:36.:47:38.

that the family system can learn valuable lessons to criminal justice

:47:39.:47:44.

and the member has pointed out. In particular from the focus that the

:47:45.:47:47.

criminal justice agencies are brought to developing the joined up

:47:48.:47:52.

response which takes full account of the needs of the victim, the

:47:53.:47:56.

Government agrees that it should never be a case of contact at all

:47:57.:48:01.

costs. Judicial guidance issued by the President of the family division

:48:02.:48:06.

of the High Court to judges, to family judges which is the practice

:48:07.:48:10.

direction 12 J makes clear that the court should only make an order for

:48:11.:48:14.

contact if it can be satisfied that the physical and emotional safety of

:48:15.:48:18.

the child and the parent with whom the child is living can as far as

:48:19.:48:24.

possible be secured before, during and after contact. As is the case

:48:25.:48:28.

with the number of the issues raised in the two reports, compliance with

:48:29.:48:32.

judicial guidance is probably the responsibility of the independent

:48:33.:48:37.

judiciary. The most senior family judge, has asked a High Court George

:48:38.:48:41.

June review the direction in light of the regulations made by Women's

:48:42.:48:45.

Aid and the all-party parliament agreed. I will be meeting the

:48:46.:48:49.

President later today and intent to raise this with him in person. I

:48:50.:48:53.

would now like to respond specifically to some of point is

:48:54.:48:56.

that they're made by honourable member stream because of this

:48:57.:48:59.

discussion. We've heard from the members of Penistone, bellowing

:49:00.:49:08.

Yardley, Great Grimsby, Hove, north Ayrshire, Sheffield, Glasgow

:49:09.:49:14.

Central, Strangford. Each has made thoughtful and powerful

:49:15.:49:18.

contributions. With regards to reports, I've seen both reports, I

:49:19.:49:22.

have read them with interest and it was a difficult read. I can inform

:49:23.:49:28.

the House that I will be meeting Polly, the chief executive of

:49:29.:49:32.

Women's Aid on October the 17th when I look forward to discussing the

:49:33.:49:37.

recommendations with her in person. The member for Birmingham also made

:49:38.:49:42.

an important point about the lack of data on the number of litigants in

:49:43.:49:45.

person, I agree that we currently have insufficient data in the family

:49:46.:49:51.

justice system. I can assure the House that evidence -based policy is

:49:52.:49:55.

at the heart of everything I'm going to do as a minister going forward.

:49:56.:50:00.

With regards to vulnerable witnesses in family court, the member asked

:50:01.:50:09.

about controlling behaviour and the understanding that of alcohol. The

:50:10.:50:14.

law is clear. The definition of harm includes a child witnessing

:50:15.:50:21.

violence. Battling falls controlling behaviour. We are working to

:50:22.:50:26.

consider what the Badditional productions may be necessary. --

:50:27.:50:36.

additional. Responsibility for training rests with the college she

:50:37.:50:40.

runs modules on domestic abuse, court staff receive training on

:50:41.:50:44.

various aspects of domestic abuse. We are reviewing this and have shed

:50:45.:50:46.

the training materials with the Women's Aid to assist a review. All

:50:47.:50:53.

family court advisers must complete training. Finally, with reference to

:50:54.:51:05.

the case that my honourable friend raised of Ellie Butler, we were all

:51:06.:51:11.

is that I'm shocked by the this case. I and enabled to comment on

:51:12.:51:19.

the case. In closing, let me thank the honourable members, I don't need

:51:20.:51:27.

to be reminded of the impact of this on people in the last three months.

:51:28.:51:31.

I have had two cases of a doctor as domestic violence and it is truly

:51:32.:51:36.

shocking when you encounter women in the circumstances and I'm determined

:51:37.:51:40.

to do everything that I can to improve our management of the cases

:51:41.:51:45.

when they come to the criminal justice system but indeed actually

:51:46.:51:48.

to try and get rid of this scourge that blight on society. I am

:51:49.:51:53.

hopeful, particularly after Vista by that we can work across the House

:51:54.:51:56.

and indeed beyond as we continue efforts to improve the way the

:51:57.:51:59.

family justice system response to domestic abuse. Thank you. I would

:52:00.:52:10.

like to thank the backbench business committee for having given us this

:52:11.:52:15.

very important debate. I think it's said the House at the binders, I

:52:16.:52:18.

think that that is what we have seen this afternoon. Biagi must have been

:52:19.:52:22.

hurt but also the stories, the voices that needed to heard. Claire

:52:23.:52:26.

is here today and I know how much this means to her. All of this means

:52:27.:52:30.

nothing interweaves the effective change. The extent of the challenge

:52:31.:52:37.

has been made clear to me this afternoon by a rather unpleasant

:52:38.:52:41.

week sent to the honourable member for Birmingham Yardley and myself in

:52:42.:52:45.

response to my honourable friend's comments about the high quality of

:52:46.:52:50.

the debate this afternoon. The tweet said, man hating at its finest. Well

:52:51.:52:58.

done. If that doesn't is on to make the changes necessary, to put

:52:59.:53:01.

children first and family courts, nothing will. I thank the Minister

:53:02.:53:05.

for his awful and considered response. But I would urge them to

:53:06.:53:14.

act as quickly as reasonably possible to make the changes that we

:53:15.:53:18.

know are necessary to stop children in the future dying at the hands of

:53:19.:53:26.

their fathers. The question is as on the audio paper. As many as are of

:53:27.:53:29.

the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. The ayes have it.

:53:30.:53:34.

The ayes have it. Point of order. I will not take up much time. An

:53:35.:54:02.

hour ago, the Foreign Affairs Committee produced a report, on the

:54:03.:54:07.

manufacturing of arms, accompanied by a press release, and often to see

:54:08.:54:15.

is taking you read the press release and not the report. I want to make

:54:16.:54:24.

it clear, I am grateful for your advice Mr Deputy Speaker. Majority

:54:25.:54:31.

report, and minority report, the majority report was tabled by myself

:54:32.:54:41.

and the member for North East Fife, nowhere in the press release is it

:54:42.:54:45.

mentioned. I think it is misleading, to put out the press release and

:54:46.:54:52.

suggest that this was supported by all the members of the committee, we

:54:53.:54:58.

specifically supported the report from the business committee. This is

:54:59.:55:06.

included in this report, clearly, the arms export licensing regime has

:55:07.:55:13.

not worked. We recommend that the United Kingdom suspends licenses to

:55:14.:55:20.

Saudi Arabia, capable of being used at Yemen, pending the results of the

:55:21.:55:27.

information weight with -- led enquiries. And issue now for the

:55:28.:55:31.

licenses. That should have been included in the press release. Can i

:55:32.:55:46.

just say, The rate honourable lady knows that I have known the

:55:47.:55:49.

restriction over the reports. But I am sure that all the newspapers and

:55:50.:55:56.

media, well have taken notice of that, and I am sure it will be

:55:57.:56:05.

highlighted, not a point for the chair but on the record. Thank you.

:56:06.:56:10.

Following on from the concerns of my honourable friend, I am concerned

:56:11.:56:15.

about the lack of information about the funding, to Yemen, how that has

:56:16.:56:23.

been managed, can we not have a report? And when was the last time

:56:24.:56:29.

any British diplomat visited Yemen? We're not getting proper reporting

:56:30.:56:32.

back from what is happening with the funding. It is obviously not for me.

:56:33.:56:41.

But that is on the record. I am sure that the leader of the house will

:56:42.:56:49.

that take. It is not a matter for me, but it is certainly on the

:56:50.:56:56.

record. Progress... We are now coming to the backbench motion.

:56:57.:57:06.

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I draw the attention of the house, to

:57:07.:57:18.

my entry, I beg to move the motion on quantitative easing. The question

:57:19.:57:24.

of restoring confidence, to stimulate lending and growth, was

:57:25.:57:31.

understood. As QE was put into place... Commentators worried about

:57:32.:57:40.

the risk to inflation, and my primary concern about the Bank of

:57:41.:57:46.

England's programme was not that it could lead to some sort of

:57:47.:57:51.

hyperinflation, but that it may not necessarily lead to an increase in

:57:52.:57:58.

lending. That was the evidence from Japan, for a significant period

:57:59.:58:01.

after the introduction, lending fell. And of course, that the

:58:02.:58:05.

outcome has been mirrored here. M4, the value in January 2010,

:58:06.:58:30.

?2,210 billion. A slight fall. The improbable fact is that lending

:58:31.:58:38.

could have been lower without QE. But the inescapable fact, having

:58:39.:58:44.

engaged with quantitative easing, it does seem that the asset purchase

:58:45.:58:50.

scheme has predominantly enhanced the balance team, without an

:58:51.:58:58.

increase in lending. We also understand the difference between QE

:58:59.:59:04.

and printing money. QE should eventually be unwound. But the

:59:05.:59:10.

mechanism of timing, unknown. The Bank of England now owns a quarter

:59:11.:59:20.

of all extending government debt. When I saw the agreement for the

:59:21.:59:24.

study, it was ahead of the Bank of England announcing more measures to

:59:25.:59:27.

add to the QE programme, this believes it is a much-needed debate.

:59:28.:59:35.

It is correct that after seven years of the programme, we take stock of

:59:36.:59:39.

what has been achieved, and the interaction between monetary and

:59:40.:59:42.

fiscal policy, to deliver confidence. With the measures

:59:43.:59:48.

announced in August, the Bank of England has announced a programme of

:59:49.:59:54.

445 billion. The desire to drive down these interest rates has seen

:59:55.:00:07.

investors having increases in asset prices and a decline in yields. The

:00:08.:00:15.

financial markets, FTSE 100 was at 300,000, 529, ahead of the launch.

:00:16.:00:33.

Last night, the index closed on with a value representing 89%. The QE

:00:34.:00:38.

programme has helped deliver an outcome, that those owning financial

:00:39.:00:42.

and property assets have been doing well, this could be an unintended

:00:43.:00:48.

consequence, but on the face of it, no positive impact on growth. As the

:00:49.:00:54.

Prime Minister has said, monetary and in the form of these low

:00:55.:01:04.

interest rates... I am grateful. The Bank of England reports indicate an

:01:05.:01:11.

increase in growth as a result of QE after the financial crisis, it could

:01:12.:01:15.

have had a positive impact on the level of inflation, and GDP growth.

:01:16.:01:23.

Clearly, benefiting all of us. My contention would be, after the

:01:24.:01:31.

limited reporting from the Bank of England, we need to have a more

:01:32.:01:35.

detailed analysis. I accept, some limited impact on the economy, but

:01:36.:01:42.

what I am going on to discuss, as I go through the speech, whether we

:01:43.:01:49.

need to balance monetary measures, by taking fiscal measures, and it

:01:50.:01:56.

has to be managing responsibilities, monetary and fiscal policies. That

:01:57.:02:01.

is relevant to the point that my honourable friend has made. The

:02:02.:02:06.

Prime Minister said monetary policy, super low interest rates, QE, has

:02:07.:02:12.

helped those on the property ladder, at the expense of those who cannot

:02:13.:02:19.

afford their own home. On this occasion, I agree with the Prime

:02:20.:02:22.

Minister but I do not intend to make a habit of that. You have to get a

:02:23.:02:27.

response from the government, that recognises fiscal measures must be

:02:28.:02:31.

taken as part of a balanced approach, for sustainable growth. If

:02:32.:02:37.

we contrast the growth, and financial wealth, real wage growth

:02:38.:02:48.

has stagnated. We know from analysis published, that QE, has boosted

:02:49.:02:56.

asset prices, and the top 5% on those assets. The analysis at that

:02:57.:02:59.

time estimated that the top 5% of households have become richer to the

:03:00.:03:10.

tune of ?120,000, on average. QE, it has exasperated wealth disparity

:03:11.:03:20.

between rich and poor. I thank my honourable friend. I have to agree

:03:21.:03:25.

with elements of what he has said, the interest rates, QE, in place for

:03:26.:03:35.

a hell of a long time. Distorting effect. But would he not recognise,

:03:36.:03:41.

2009, entering those emergency interest rates, nobody would have

:03:42.:03:45.

envisaged that this far down the line, the British economy, and more

:03:46.:03:53.

importantly, the world economy, it would be difficult for us to reason

:03:54.:03:56.

was interest rates. The policy at the time, was entirely acceptable

:03:57.:04:03.

and understandable. But it has been recognisable, for so long. I find

:04:04.:04:11.

myself agreeing. As I have said, we recognise that this was the

:04:12.:04:15.

necessary state that was taken in 2009. I am grateful that the

:04:16.:04:19.

backbench business committee has granted this debate. I think it is

:04:20.:04:23.

important. We have two reflect on the policies that have been taken,

:04:24.:04:27.

how they can be balanced by other measures. Indeed, we need to have

:04:28.:04:36.

that detailed analysis of what has happened, to the 445 billion,

:04:37.:04:42.

invested in the programme, and we have no idea at this stage given the

:04:43.:04:45.

economic circumstances if we're going to see the beginning of the

:04:46.:04:49.

unwinding of that. It could be in the future. We need to reflect on

:04:50.:04:56.

the experiences that I have discussed, be prepared to consider

:04:57.:04:59.

what we need to change from monetary and fiscal policy, in order to

:05:00.:05:07.

foster inclusiveness. We have not had these circumstances, enhancing

:05:08.:05:12.

business confidence, it is necessary to drive up productivity, and

:05:13.:05:16.

enhance living standards. Post Brexit... Much has been talked about

:05:17.:05:21.

those who have been left behind, and we have to have an examination of

:05:22.:05:27.

QE, and alternative measures. We have the situation, the disconnect

:05:28.:05:33.

between growth and financial assets, and the way the economy. Also, Mr

:05:34.:05:38.

Deputy Speaker, the issue of the impact on savers, and pension

:05:39.:05:45.

savings. The difficulty experienced by the BHS scheme, just an example

:05:46.:05:57.

of the risks involved. Today, about 11 million citizens in the United

:05:58.:06:02.

Kingdom, across 6000 pension schemes. It has been suggested that

:06:03.:06:10.

the combined deficit was around 384 billion. Around 600 schemes in

:06:11.:06:22.

danger zones, in terms of meeting objectives. The impact of QE,

:06:23.:06:29.

particularly from declining yield... Let me put that into context. The

:06:30.:06:37.

movement equates to approximately the benefit pension scheme deficit,

:06:38.:06:43.

?120 billion. When we consider that the ten

:06:44.:06:54.

year government bond yield was 3.1% in March 2009, .5% today... You can

:06:55.:07:00.

see the challenges faced. We have invested 445 billion, undermining in

:07:01.:07:07.

the process the attraction of savings, and pension savings. It is

:07:08.:07:13.

not just the impact on future income streams, but also the decline, of

:07:14.:07:21.

considerable concern. This was identified by the Treasury Select

:07:22.:07:26.

Committee report, 2012, stating that this achieved through QE has the

:07:27.:07:35.

redistribution or six, analysing Sievers, -- penalising savers. We

:07:36.:07:40.

need to reflect on those statements, adapt the approach. It has also been

:07:41.:07:46.

stated that QE has exasperated wealth inequality. I am most

:07:47.:07:57.

grateful. I wonder if he saw the Telegraph, in September, the

:07:58.:07:59.

editorial said that they had the pension scandal at the Bank of

:08:00.:08:03.

England, going through the reality that senior staff have been given

:08:04.:08:07.

massive increases, in order to fight justice. What is good for the goose,

:08:08.:08:14.

Bank of England, not good for the boss. Would he agree that the Bank

:08:15.:08:17.

of England is in danger of being accused of hypocrisy? I think my

:08:18.:08:24.

honourable friend makes a good point. I have seen the headlines.

:08:25.:08:28.

And when we talk about the inequality, trying to paint that

:08:29.:08:36.

picture, that is exactly the point. Those at the top, of society, seen

:08:37.:08:41.

as benefiting from the QE programme, benefiting the pension schemes,

:08:42.:08:46.

while ordinary workers have been penalised. That is absolutely right.

:08:47.:08:50.

One recognises the disconnect in society.

:08:51.:08:56.

One of the problems that is caused if the inflation in house prices. I

:08:57.:09:03.

will say a little bit more about that in a minute. But just in

:09:04.:09:07.

response to what the honourable gentleman on the other side of the

:09:08.:09:11.

House said, is it also the case that the Bank of England is still

:09:12.:09:18.

subsidising the mortgages of its staff and helping them at this very

:09:19.:09:27.

steep property ladder? I'm grateful for the honourable member for the

:09:28.:09:29.

intubation. I don't have knowledge on that case. It is not helpful that

:09:30.:09:38.

that is taking place. I do not talk about house prices when the increase

:09:39.:09:43.

financial market. Quantitive easing has led to an increase in property

:09:44.:09:47.

prices and we know the problem is suffering in the cell piece of

:09:48.:09:49.

England as a consequence of that. And an intended consequence is that

:09:50.:09:55.

I've been referring to. -- unintended. I hope the Minister will

:09:56.:09:59.

reflect on all of this and will tell us how the Government can bring

:10:00.:10:02.

forward measures that will address specifically the issue of rising

:10:03.:10:05.

wealth inequality which I think concerns members right across the

:10:06.:10:11.

House. While I recognise the health of... The Treasury has been absent

:10:12.:10:21.

to grow the economy and counter the negative impact of Brexit. You

:10:22.:10:26.

cannot do both monetary and fiscal policy, they have to work in tandem.

:10:27.:10:30.

There is a third challenge in encouraging companies to invest, we

:10:31.:10:34.

are seeing a great opportunity in the wider economy. The response of

:10:35.:10:38.

the day that we all have disagreed these circumstances but there is a

:10:39.:10:43.

realisation of a great opportunity. I appreciate that the logical design

:10:44.:10:47.

of the previous Chancellor of achieving a fiscal surplus in the

:10:48.:10:50.

current Parliament has been thankfully abandoned. Whilst we

:10:51.:10:53.

should all share the desire to cut the deficit from that, it is the

:10:54.:10:58.

question of how to get that requires much deeper debate. I am pleased

:10:59.:11:01.

that there are no voices across the chamber that seemed to recognise

:11:02.:11:05.

that we have to take a full physical as well as monetary responsibility

:11:06.:11:09.

is to strengthen quantity and grow. We have to consider in particular

:11:10.:11:12.

infrastructure investment as a counterpart to monetary measures to

:11:13.:11:17.

improve efficiency and create an environment that will encourage

:11:18.:11:21.

business investment that will allow us to improve productivity to

:11:22.:11:23.

competitors and as a result living standards. It is about making sure

:11:24.:11:28.

that we move away from the situation, the Kiwi has been

:11:29.:11:30.

beneficial for those owning financial assets to wonder why the

:11:31.:11:37.

society sees a wider benefit to approach. My part in the SNP has

:11:38.:11:41.

advocated for the end and reversal of the Tory Government's programmer

:11:42.:11:46.

this Daugherty and harmed our social fabric and use fiscal tools to

:11:47.:11:54.

create a balanced economy. That would've brought an inclusive

:11:55.:11:59.

economy through a modest investment and infrastructure as well as vital

:12:00.:12:03.

public services. This balanced approach will return the public

:12:04.:12:07.

finances to a sustainable stop or continue to invest. It would boost

:12:08.:12:13.

investment, it will halt the story the programme. If we oversee and

:12:14.:12:19.

increase spending on public spending by a modest 0.5% in real terms

:12:20.:12:24.

between 2016, 2070, this would release over 150 billion during this

:12:25.:12:29.

period for investment in public services was ensuring that public

:12:30.:12:32.

sector debt and borrowing ball over the current Parliament. In doing so,

:12:33.:12:38.

this will stipulate GDP growth, support wage growth and tax

:12:39.:12:41.

receipts. By transforming productivity and innovation, it will

:12:42.:12:45.

act as a major signal of confidence in our economy. It. The cutbacks

:12:46.:12:54.

that this mature chubby effect -- disproportionately affect. Revise

:12:55.:13:03.

growth predictions, down signalling to add polythene makers to act in

:13:04.:13:07.

policy responses to tackle the underlying challenges. It called for

:13:08.:13:13.

advanced economies to strengthening growth by engaging instructional

:13:14.:13:16.

reforms, yes, continued monetary policy accommodation and fiscal

:13:17.:13:21.

support in the form of growth, only think fiscal policies,. Furthermore,

:13:22.:13:33.

in an article the IMF revisited the effectiveness of this Daugherty and

:13:34.:13:40.

concluded that these policies increased and jeopardise long-term

:13:41.:13:44.

economic growth. In its latest economic outgrown, they encourage

:13:45.:13:49.

policymakers around the world to break out of the blue growth trap

:13:50.:13:54.

and deliver economic prosperity by deploying fiscal policy more

:13:55.:13:56.

extensively as well as taking advantage of the low interest rate

:13:57.:14:00.

environment created by monetary policy. It suggested the use of

:14:01.:14:06.

structural policy but also urged governments to interfere at the

:14:07.:14:10.

labour market skills and a in infrastructure that deliver

:14:11.:14:12.

long-term productivity and economic growth. Even in the US, it has an

:14:13.:14:19.

impressing other T20 countries for more fiscal policy activism to put

:14:20.:14:23.

growth ahead of austerity. Ahead of the September 20 secretary,

:14:24.:14:31.

consultants had formed around the US position on the need for countries

:14:32.:14:35.

to use all policy tools, including monetary, fiscal structural reforms.

:14:36.:14:41.

Mr Deputy Speaker, the UK Government's failure to rebalance

:14:42.:14:47.

the economy following the financial crisis has left a toxic legacy as

:14:48.:14:52.

stagnating growth. The SMP understood the use of quantitative

:14:53.:14:55.

easing by the Bank of England response to the financial crash and

:14:56.:14:59.

as a temporary measure to regain stability. However, the

:15:00.:15:02.

effectiveness of monetary policy has been gravely undermined by the

:15:03.:15:05.

austerity agenda and now leaves a legacy of unintended consequences

:15:06.:15:10.

that put in an President burden on future generations. The Bank of

:15:11.:15:14.

England should now evaluate the effectiveness of the QE programme

:15:15.:15:19.

and the wider consequences after the decision to leave the UK. The

:15:20.:15:23.

garment should reflect on that and put in place effective fiscal

:15:24.:15:30.

measures. The pressure is on the order paper. I congratulate him for

:15:31.:15:39.

support during the debate. Like him, I am pleased to agree with my right

:15:40.:15:44.

honourable friend the Prime Minister's comment on monetary

:15:45.:15:47.

policy. I hope to explore more with my right honourable friend how we go

:15:48.:15:51.

forwards. I think at this point I should pay tribute to money week Tim

:15:52.:15:55.

Price, the journalist writing in that magazine has brought forward a

:15:56.:15:59.

petition on the Parliamentary website against QE, so far securing

:16:00.:16:05.

4700 signatures plus and I hope out by the end of this debate with the

:16:06.:16:09.

enormous ornaments it is bound to draw it we might see a few more

:16:10.:16:19.

signatures. -- 400,000 700. We can see from attendance in the chamber

:16:20.:16:21.

it is not well understood and while the public feel the effects of it

:16:22.:16:26.

vary widely, actually represent is perhaps not as well-equipped to

:16:27.:16:29.

participate in debates on the subject as they might be. I would

:16:30.:16:32.

like to talk about the two areas mentioned in the motion. First the

:16:33.:16:37.

effects of QE and second the future of policy. It might be helpful first

:16:38.:16:43.

to turn to page for the last inflation report that said up

:16:44.:16:47.

channels through these monetary policies work. The first is bringing

:16:48.:16:52.

forward spending by lowering the real interest rate, the next is

:16:53.:16:55.

blurring the debt servicing calls, the cash flow Channel, the further

:16:56.:17:00.

lowering funding cuts, the credit Channel and then the wealth Channel

:17:01.:17:05.

is mentioned, selling assets to the bank to reinvest the money received

:17:06.:17:10.

in other assets therefore supporting asset profits. An exchange-rate that

:17:11.:17:14.

there's consideration when our exchange rate has just dropped. But

:17:15.:17:20.

as an object of bank policy. There is confidence and expectations

:17:21.:17:24.

Channel which demonstrates the Government and the bank the MPC is

:17:25.:17:27.

aware of the importance of their role in the markets in creating

:17:28.:17:32.

expectations and the effect that it has the real economy. The honourable

:17:33.:17:36.

gentlemen made some very good point on wealth inequality, but I would

:17:37.:17:40.

like to dwell on festival. Back in the Bank of England did bring

:17:41.:17:49.

forward a report and they write that vision of a range of assets

:17:50.:17:55.

purchases, they have boosted the value of households. Holdings are

:17:56.:17:59.

heavily skewed with the top 5% of households holding 40% of these

:18:00.:18:06.

assets. In the last inflation report with the MPC, the Treasury Select

:18:07.:18:09.

Committee picked up on this issue of wealth inequality and the extent to

:18:10.:18:14.

which it is promoted by eye with the easy money but QE specifically. I

:18:15.:18:18.

notice it is becoming an increasing focus for the committee, I'm

:18:19.:18:21.

grateful to see the honourable lady who served with me on the committee

:18:22.:18:24.

here and I look forward to hearing what she has to say. We are

:18:25.:18:26.

converging on all sides of the House on a genuine concern that it may we

:18:27.:18:31.

be that the processes of the market are being undermined in the justice

:18:32.:18:36.

by the current set of monetary policies. Now if anything QE has an

:18:37.:18:42.

upside. Because it has made explicit a phenomenon that has been going on

:18:43.:18:45.

for a long time. The honourable gentleman manage the quantities of

:18:46.:18:51.

M4 outstanding. If one goes back a bit further, M4 outstanding was

:18:52.:18:56.

about ?700 billion in 1997. When you just bought the quantity of M4

:18:57.:19:02.

outstanding, you see an allocated rush and exhilarating rush to the

:19:03.:19:09.

quantity of M4 outstanding. That we seem to be getting off when actually

:19:10.:19:13.

there was enormous acceleration in the supply of credit leading to

:19:14.:19:17.

crisis, brought the stagnation in the creation of money and it

:19:18.:19:21.

categorically different economic environment which we find ourselves

:19:22.:19:25.

today. Now this has gone on for a long time, the office for National

:19:26.:19:29.

statistics and the House of Commons library published a paper looking at

:19:30.:19:35.

price inflation back to 1750 which has an instructive chart which I

:19:36.:19:39.

regret I can't put on the record. If one looks at a linear scale, the

:19:40.:19:45.

money with all the flat until 1914, 1918, there was some inflation

:19:46.:19:48.

during the wars and from 1971, the value of money just collapse. What

:19:49.:19:54.

happened in 1971? The final link to gold was severed, the money became

:19:55.:19:57.

inflationary and as ever, governance bird means of financing themselves

:19:58.:20:04.

after tax and it has been that continuous expansion of credit,

:20:05.:20:08.

chronic expansion of credit which has brought us to the position we

:20:09.:20:12.

iron. The point I'm making is what we are now increasingly concerned

:20:13.:20:17.

about the wealth equality effects comedy just QE, the point that since

:20:18.:20:24.

1971, the money supply has been chronically expansionary and

:20:25.:20:26.

therefore these effects have been going on throughout my lifetime.

:20:27.:20:30.

When I look at what he wrote, I won't write the whole thing, he

:20:31.:20:36.

wrote, I continuing process of inflation, governments can

:20:37.:20:39.

confiscate secretly and an insert an important part of the wealth of

:20:40.:20:43.

their citizens. By this method, they not only confiscate but they

:20:44.:20:46.

confiscate arbitrarily. And while the process and publish as many, it

:20:47.:20:51.

actually enriches. The sight of the rearrangement of riches not as

:20:52.:20:56.

security but confidence in the equity of the existing distribution

:20:57.:20:59.

of wealth. What a strange? Not very much. I'm not quitting some wild

:21:00.:21:07.

eyed libertarian scholar. Is it therefore... Is it therefore any

:21:08.:21:13.

wonder that I have given the right honourable gentlemen and advance

:21:14.:21:15.

notice Buddhism any wonder we see reported in the Telegraph today a

:21:16.:21:19.

speech by the Right Honourable gentleman in which he says we have

:21:20.:21:25.

got to demand change. I am straight, I'm honest with people, I'm in

:21:26.:21:32.

Marxist. This is a classic crisis of the economy. I've been waiting for

:21:33.:21:36.

this for a generation will stop he said, for Christ sake, don't waste

:21:37.:21:40.

it. Let's use it looks lean to be but this is based on greed and

:21:41.:21:44.

profit does not work. I have covered this been before. If this is

:21:45.:21:49.

capitalism, I'm not a catalyst. It is not capitalism when money under

:21:50.:21:53.

the century plant, essentially directed policy of the committee of

:21:54.:21:58.

wise men and women at the central bank creates this chronically fresh

:21:59.:22:00.

environment which we are now beginning to recognise as real

:22:01.:22:04.

wealth affects, that is not capitalism. If the outcome is

:22:05.:22:08.

unjust, it is an just because of monetary arrangements, in my view.

:22:09.:22:11.

There will be other factors but I think that is potentially a profound

:22:12.:22:15.

cause of wealth inequality and injustice in the market economy. Of

:22:16.:22:21.

course. I am very interested by this speech of my old friend. It has got

:22:22.:22:28.

interesting. A lot of what in terms of the industry trajectory I totally

:22:29.:22:32.

get. In terms of the seconds is based on 2009, I know I'm going back

:22:33.:22:36.

a bit now, when QE was launched, in those circumstances as an monetary

:22:37.:22:42.

as myself, with the honourable gentleman has supported it at that

:22:43.:22:49.

stage? Would leave supported it initially at that point? He asked

:22:50.:22:54.

the magnetic in question. One discovers on the website the

:22:55.:23:01.

question was put down, would they have supported QE? And the consensus

:23:02.:23:09.

of scholars was that in the second of the time, in all of the

:23:10.:23:13.

circumstances of the time, that he would have supported it to prevent

:23:14.:23:19.

the money supply collapsing. And the horrific humanitarian consequences

:23:20.:23:21.

that that would have involved. But would he have supported it now to

:23:22.:23:24.

try and stimulate the economy, creating patterns of economic

:23:25.:23:29.

activity only sustained by that expansion in money supply? Sadly no.

:23:30.:23:33.

I was not in Parliament at the time, I'm happy to tell my honourable

:23:34.:23:36.

friend but I did not have to make that decision. We are where we are.

:23:37.:23:41.

The second but I want to make is on this is that I believe policy is an

:23:42.:23:45.

effective now, counter-productive. The governor told the Treasury

:23:46.:23:50.

committee that we have extraordinary if not emergency monetary policy.

:23:51.:23:55.

We've had it since 2009. I believe that if during that seven-year

:23:56.:23:58.

period there were productive investments to be made which could

:23:59.:24:01.

have been brought forward, pain induced by these low interest rates,

:24:02.:24:05.

they would be now by May. I think we are into the law of diminishing

:24:06.:24:08.

returns when it comes to productive investment. We run the risk of

:24:09.:24:14.

inducing to engage in activities which will not have a return. In

:24:15.:24:18.

other words, banks will make non-performing loans and that is the

:24:19.:24:21.

problem afflicting the Italian banking system as we sit here.

:24:22.:24:29.

The question, if we can sustain this recovery, and one of my advisers

:24:30.:24:49.

wrote to me... Said remove base effects from the collapse of oil,

:24:50.:24:51.

let core inflation continue, CPI, 4%. That is something I will be

:24:52.:24:55.

asking the governor about. And it has been pointed out, that in the

:24:56.:25:07.

three months, on the Bank of England preferred measure, it was an annual

:25:08.:25:14.

rate of 14.7%. And when I raise this with the governor, I think it is far

:25:15.:25:28.

starker. Currently growing by 14.7%, do we expect more or less inflation?

:25:29.:25:33.

But when that was put to the governor, the answer moved away from

:25:34.:25:41.

the problem. I would encourage you to look at exactly what he said. I

:25:42.:25:50.

give way. I have to say I am enjoying listening to these

:25:51.:25:54.

contributions. Given the case that he has been outlining, the bubble in

:25:55.:26:03.

financial and property assets, what would he be doing about that today?

:26:04.:26:09.

I certainly agree. The Bank of England have said that they have

:26:10.:26:19.

deliberately enhanced the bubble, and if you look for that period,

:26:20.:26:24.

from 1997, two 2010, the regional distribution then you have

:26:25.:26:32.

correlation between the regional distribution, and the distribution

:26:33.:26:38.

of those changes, correlates. London and the south-east, rocket away

:26:39.:26:47.

earlier, the north east, Scotland, increasing slowly as money spreads.

:26:48.:26:54.

I think it is a good case, that it has a profound effect, not on

:26:55.:26:57.

particular assets, but regional distribution. It is something that

:26:58.:27:02.

the bank should consider in those reports. It is not in my remit to

:27:03.:27:17.

produce research. The next point, this is of the liberal policy of

:27:18.:27:22.

manipulating asset prices. Disrupting markets. That means, the

:27:23.:27:29.

misallocation of capital. The governor made a speech at New York,

:27:30.:27:38.

I have tried to raise this with him, but he has been good at moving the

:27:39.:27:43.

subject. He talked about criticisms of inflation, first was price

:27:44.:27:53.

stability does not guarantee market stability. And he said that

:27:54.:27:57.

inflation targeting can feed financial vulnerabilities,

:27:58.:28:05.

especially in the presence of the Austrian perspective, excess money

:28:06.:28:13.

resulting in misallocation of capital. These imbalances eventually

:28:14.:28:22.

implode. It cannot be said, the governor has been on were -- unaware

:28:23.:28:31.

of the Austrian School of economics, telling us that the money creation

:28:32.:28:38.

has structural defects. I was going to challenge the bank, to include in

:28:39.:28:46.

the report, this, demonstrated was not aware but the governor has said

:28:47.:28:54.

that they are aware. They have to show in the report, not only are the

:28:55.:29:03.

aware, but using other instruments, they can do with the structural

:29:04.:29:07.

consequences. I think that is one of the big questions. The structural

:29:08.:29:14.

consequences, can be deal with, using other instruments. I am

:29:15.:29:22.

absolutely convinced they cannot", worse crisis later than 2008. I

:29:23.:29:31.

sense that Mr Deputy Speaker wants me to wrap up. This has gone from an

:29:32.:29:38.

exercise of seating the financial system, to kicking the can down the

:29:39.:29:43.

road? How is this going to develop? I think we're to go to negative

:29:44.:29:48.

rates, banning cash, helicopter money. And only the governor, would

:29:49.:29:57.

rule out helicopter money. It is encouraging the misguided belief

:29:58.:30:01.

that if only be printed money, we would have justice. This naive

:30:02.:30:10.

inflation is mad. Thank you. We have got to get to the point, when we

:30:11.:30:16.

escape from these policies, one of three mechanisms, self-sustaining

:30:17.:30:27.

recovery, I hope that. Or... The next phase is going to be massive

:30:28.:30:32.

inflation, or the abandonment of these easy monetary policies. At

:30:33.:30:38.

which point, the correction. The question for society, and us, and

:30:39.:30:51.

monetary economists, is going to be what went wrong? Will people blame

:30:52.:30:56.

the free market? It could lead to impoverishment. Or central planning?

:30:57.:31:05.

By the Central banks? It has deliberately mislead treated the

:31:06.:31:09.

economy. And dropped us into this profound crisis. I welcome this

:31:10.:31:17.

motion. I will support it. And I congratulate the honourable

:31:18.:31:24.

gentleman. I wish to congratulate the honourable gentleman on securing

:31:25.:31:31.

this important debate. I am pleased to follow the honourable gentleman,

:31:32.:31:36.

I have discussed these issues. It seems to me, the problem of

:31:37.:31:41.

inequality is one of the most profound facing the country. It is

:31:42.:31:48.

getting worse. The problem, enhancing differences between

:31:49.:31:55.

different social groups, dividing families because of the generational

:31:56.:32:00.

gaps, and dividing the country geographically. Significant regional

:32:01.:32:10.

inequalities. To learn that the Bank of England's QE, expanding these

:32:11.:32:24.

gaps between rich and poor is alarming, the bank has undertook its

:32:25.:32:27.

own analysis of the impact of the QE in 2012. I think what they found was

:32:28.:32:36.

that the top 5% had seen an increase, of 180 5000. And that the

:32:37.:32:44.

bottom 50% got no increase in wealth. No assets. I am not critical

:32:45.:32:59.

of QE in principle, not critical of the package which the Bank of

:33:00.:33:05.

England unveiled in the summer. That is because I think Brexit has been a

:33:06.:33:12.

shock to the economy and we need to take action, to stabilise. And avert

:33:13.:33:22.

reductions in growth. Nevertheless, I am not happy that the bank has

:33:23.:33:26.

demonstrated that the way they are doing this QE, it is the best. I

:33:27.:33:33.

think it is worthwhile to examine this, in more detail. To give

:33:34.:33:43.

context to this increase, that asset holdings of the top 5%, the

:33:44.:33:50.

considerable part being the housing market, it is worth of zero --

:33:51.:34:02.

observing, the average house price is ?212,000. The top 5% have been

:34:03.:34:08.

given enough money, either Bank of England to buy another house. The

:34:09.:34:14.

Chancellor of the Exchequer, were he to stand up and say that he was

:34:15.:34:20.

giving 185,000, to the richest people in this country, I think even

:34:21.:34:24.

members on the government benches would be alarmed, concerned, even

:34:25.:34:32.

slightly rebellious. But because it has been done by the Bank of

:34:33.:34:39.

England, hidden, we are not seen the same level of concern. But we need

:34:40.:34:54.

to. Moreover... It is a problem when the ratio of average earnings to

:34:55.:34:58.

house prices is 8:1. Bus is putting the possibility of homeownership

:34:59.:35:03.

beyond many millions of people in this country. It is five home or

:35:04.:35:13.

Russia has been fallen, -- why home ownership has been falling. We are

:35:14.:35:20.

not saying this, and QE has been making the situation was. -- worse.

:35:21.:35:29.

I understand the point that she has been making, absolutely. I

:35:30.:35:35.

appreciate the comments. I would not wish any message, to go from this

:35:36.:35:40.

house to the broader audience, that was the intended aspect of the

:35:41.:35:45.

policy. When QE was introduced by the last Labour administration, it

:35:46.:35:50.

was introduced with admirable intentions, to ensure that GDP

:35:51.:36:01.

growth improved, I would not want that to be seen as the intention.

:36:02.:36:07.

What the honourable gentleman has said is absolutely fair. I agree. I

:36:08.:36:16.

would not say that Labour QE was good, Tory bad, but as I said

:36:17.:36:24.

initially, I do not think it should have been another package this

:36:25.:36:30.

summer. My questions, about the way they do it. We have quizzed the Bank

:36:31.:36:44.

of England, on three occasions. The first time... It was said that

:36:45.:36:54.

taking account of distribution would be political. But we have had the

:36:55.:37:02.

more recent questioning of them and it seems that different parts of the

:37:03.:37:08.

bank have said different things. I think it would be unfair to say they

:37:09.:37:16.

speak with four tongues, but we have the chief economist saying monetary

:37:17.:37:25.

policy cannot close fault lines, for example regional, generational gaps,

:37:26.:37:36.

cannot set different interest rates. He said that the United Kingdom

:37:37.:37:40.

recovery has been for the few rather than many. This seems to be the

:37:41.:37:46.

criticism of the unequal society. He seems to be saying this is not good

:37:47.:37:56.

socially, economic life. But when we questioned John Cunliff, he said

:37:57.:38:02.

that they would only point out that they have tools they have. It is an

:38:03.:38:10.

helpful, and unhelpful approach. I think it is stolen, the bank do not

:38:11.:38:16.

want to look at different ways of doing QE, I do not think they have

:38:17.:38:20.

been sufficiently imaginative. In January, I went to Frankfurt, to

:38:21.:38:28.

visit the ECB, asking them about QE, they do it differently. Because the

:38:29.:38:35.

infrastructure, financial infrastructure is different. For

:38:36.:38:41.

example, they do not just buy government bonds, they buy bonds in

:38:42.:38:51.

KFW, the German and French infrastructure. And they have a

:38:52.:39:02.

special strand, hoping to get more money into the SME sector. I do not

:39:03.:39:08.

accept when the banks have said that they have the tools that they have,

:39:09.:39:11.

nothing different that they can do. I would commend to them some work

:39:12.:39:17.

that has been done on this, by the New Economics Foundation. It seems

:39:18.:39:19.

to me, that the bank could be... Buying investment in housing

:39:20.:39:33.

associations, for example. That in fact would be much better way of

:39:34.:39:36.

dealing with the housing crisis we have and giving a lot of money to

:39:37.:39:40.

rich people thereby pulling up property prices and I do not think

:39:41.:39:45.

that the Bank of England have got a very good understanding of the

:39:46.:39:49.

housing market. We have quit this on this as well. For example, the

:39:50.:39:57.

governor said last week, that housing finance in this economy is

:39:58.:40:02.

quite sophisticated. I do not think I would use the word sophisticated,

:40:03.:40:08.

I think it is quite dysfunctional. Because... Because what we are

:40:09.:40:11.

seeing at the moment is more and more money going into people

:40:12.:40:16.

exchanging properties, not more and more money going into more building

:40:17.:40:20.

which is actually what we really need and which would actually make a

:40:21.:40:24.

difference to the housing crisis that we have. So I really hope that

:40:25.:40:36.

the Bank of England will not only, as the honourable gentleman

:40:37.:40:41.

suggested in his motion, analyse what they were doing better, and

:40:42.:40:44.

they did commit to us that they were come back in September 20 18th with

:40:45.:40:51.

a renewed analysis of what the impact on the assets and the wealth

:40:52.:40:56.

distribution is going to be from this further round of QE. I'm very

:40:57.:41:02.

grateful. Can I ask the honourable member to clarify that the Bank of

:41:03.:41:05.

England have said they will come back in September 2018? I hope I am

:41:06.:41:09.

wrong that they will come back before that because that would

:41:10.:41:12.

suggest there is a complacency and a lack of desire to actually analyse

:41:13.:41:15.

the situation and give us the information that I think the House

:41:16.:41:19.

should be demanding problem. Well, it is probably my fault that they

:41:20.:41:24.

said September 2018 because that is what I asked them for. The reason I

:41:25.:41:29.

I asked them that that, we could ask them something earlier, you know, we

:41:30.:41:34.

could ask them to something here and now that obviously the new package

:41:35.:41:39.

was only announced in August so the impact of the new package would be

:41:40.:41:44.

felt until we come to somewhere down the tracks. So there is no point in

:41:45.:41:48.

trying to analyse the new package by Christmas because we won't see it.

:41:49.:41:53.

That was my thinking. In addition to having a better understanding of all

:41:54.:42:00.

the effects of their QE programme, I think they need to look at what

:42:01.:42:08.

other central banks, including the ECB do. I think there could be so

:42:09.:42:11.

useful levels for them and I think we might... -- lessons. I think if

:42:12.:42:20.

we tweak it a bit, we could get better effects. I think they've got

:42:21.:42:24.

a bit of a blind spot when they come to this issue of distribution. When

:42:25.:42:29.

we about their purchase of corporate bonds, they they said they would

:42:30.:42:32.

distribution blind so in other words, they wanted to be completely

:42:33.:42:37.

neutral and not take a position that when we asked them about the

:42:38.:42:46.

distribution of wealth among households, they took a

:42:47.:42:51.

completely... They seemed to be confused. The politically neutral

:42:52.:42:56.

with not taking a view on the significance of distribution. This,

:42:57.:43:04.

I think it's a mistake, I also think that if we are piling lots of money

:43:05.:43:09.

towards richer and richer people, the monetary impact is likely to be

:43:10.:43:15.

much less because the propensity to consume the wealthy is more than the

:43:16.:43:18.

propensity of people on the incomes. They are not even doing it in the

:43:19.:43:22.

most effective way. They challenged whether or not, I will be to the

:43:23.:43:32.

House what they said. -- read. The term and made them put a little

:43:33.:43:35.

earlier in the hearing about accountability. The bank being

:43:36.:43:39.

involved in decisions that were the province of politicians or some

:43:40.:43:44.

might think would be the province of politicians. The tools we have are

:43:45.:43:50.

not perfect. However, we have a clear objective which Parliament has

:43:51.:43:54.

given us and we have certain tools to implement it. It does have

:43:55.:43:57.

distribution all effects but if we were to decide what the distribution

:43:58.:44:03.

Fx should be, we would be strained even further into areas that are

:44:04.:44:07.

really the province of elected politicians. Now, I think that is a

:44:08.:44:11.

fundamental misapprehension because the honourable gentleman, I can't

:44:12.:44:19.

remember which constituency... He pointed out that at the moment at

:44:20.:44:26.

which QE was embarked on in 2009, it was done to speed up growth and with

:44:27.:44:32.

these distributional impacts in mind. However, it is now, now we

:44:33.:44:36.

know that it is producing these wealth effects, it is now

:44:37.:44:40.

disingenuous to be ignoring them. So it seems to me that that is the

:44:41.:44:44.

position they are trying to take up and we really need to push back and

:44:45.:44:48.

I'm very grateful that the honourable gentleman has given us

:44:49.:44:52.

the opportunity to do that in the House this afternoon. It with some

:44:53.:45:00.

inevitable trepidation that I stand up to speak in this debate when I

:45:01.:45:05.

hear the eloquence and the experience of those who've gone

:45:06.:45:10.

before me not least the experience of our modest crofter from sky. --

:45:11.:45:25.

Skye. But with his great evergreens with every contribution that Desmond

:45:26.:45:28.

made this afternoon to what inevitably I think is one of the

:45:29.:45:33.

most important debates I have taken part in. And one of the most awful

:45:34.:45:39.

debates but while others can wax eloquent given their experience in

:45:40.:45:43.

the financial sector over many years, but distinguished careers, I

:45:44.:45:47.

come to this perhaps trying to give voice to some others who don't have

:45:48.:45:54.

that background. I think the ordinary person in the street would

:45:55.:46:01.

recognise that we live in troubled times where there is increased

:46:02.:46:04.

uncertainty in where the stability in certain things in the past seems

:46:05.:46:11.

to blame past. Who can have semen of for example at the outset of QE that

:46:12.:46:19.

to date we would be experiencing in many economies low levels of

:46:20.:46:25.

business investment, collapsing prospects for pensions, near

:46:26.:46:28.

negative interest rates, penalising savers, a huge increase as the

:46:29.:46:36.

honourable member has indicated in wealth inequality and something I

:46:37.:46:40.

would like to add into the equation and what is likely to be one of the

:46:41.:46:46.

effects of this that we are likely to cast an eye over and I think it

:46:47.:46:51.

is perhaps we need to recognise too that the types of political

:46:52.:46:56.

instability we are seeing, the types of people feeling that they are

:46:57.:46:59.

disenfranchised, but they have no voice. But they are losing hope.

:47:00.:47:06.

That to me is one of the profound is an political consequences that

:47:07.:47:12.

deserves to be considered. And of course the result but we are facing

:47:13.:47:16.

today, it was not supposed to be like this. There comes a time where

:47:17.:47:21.

it may be wise to cast a critical eye over what seemed to most people,

:47:22.:47:27.

myself included, and entirely logical response to the crisis some

:47:28.:47:33.

years ago. I think it is good that people are able to reflect and

:47:34.:47:39.

although it comes hard for many politicians, it is maybe good to

:47:40.:47:43.

when we are modest enough to recognise that we do not always get

:47:44.:47:46.

it right and we too need to learn from experience. For example, the

:47:47.:47:52.

Government's economic plan, I think for many people in recent years

:47:53.:47:58.

you'll that it has been turning blind to some of the consequences of

:47:59.:48:03.

QE and that is seen in the poverty in many cases of the type of fiscal

:48:04.:48:09.

response to aid those who are not benefiting from the increasing

:48:10.:48:15.

wealth. So the Treasury needs to think about doing more, getting a

:48:16.:48:18.

better balance between fiscal response and military response. The

:48:19.:48:24.

time is surely right for them to mount a rigorous and open appraisal

:48:25.:48:29.

of the balance between monetary policy and fiscal measures. And

:48:30.:48:35.

whether, including the bank, looking at whether each of the rounds of QE

:48:36.:48:40.

have had the desired effect. So let us recall, I may not have worked at

:48:41.:48:48.

any time in a bank, the only times I go into the bank is when I receive

:48:49.:48:58.

phone calls from them. But I do in the past life, used to read quite a

:48:59.:49:05.

lot. Like many of you, everyone attending this debate will recall

:49:06.:49:08.

that it was actually back in 1969 in the paper by Milton Friedman

:49:09.:49:13.

entitled the Ottoman quantity of money that the idea we know today as

:49:14.:49:17.

QE was created. -- Ottoman. To create a wealth affect that was

:49:18.:49:34.

no longer possible through the conventional interest rate policy of

:49:35.:49:41.

the central bank. Friedman's notion of quantity easing was the asset

:49:42.:49:46.

prices would be boosted vast leading to an increase in confidence and

:49:47.:49:50.

spending through the wealth affect, in turn economic activity would be

:49:51.:50:00.

given a boost. But even in my recent times, and monitors who is written

:50:01.:50:04.

on the development and monetary policy, and the history of the

:50:05.:50:08.

banking in the US has questioned the accuracy of QE, arguing that it is

:50:09.:50:20.

not led to what Friedman expected. -- tarmac. It has not transpired as

:50:21.:50:25.

it was hoped. Central bankers have seen to date to be rather content to

:50:26.:50:32.

the inflated asset prices but who speaks for the millions of savers

:50:33.:50:38.

around the world? Who speaks for the ordinary man and women who have paid

:50:39.:50:44.

the price of banking failure? Where was the UK Government when our

:50:45.:50:50.

economy still take diversified balance in the aftermath of the

:50:51.:50:56.

global financial crisis? Where were the necessary fiscal measures when

:50:57.:51:00.

it transpired that people, the relatively poor were paying the

:51:01.:51:03.

price for the mistakes of the wealthy? The SNP and others

:51:04.:51:11.

understood the use of quantitative easing by the Bank of England as a

:51:12.:51:16.

response to the crisis of 2008 as a temporary measure to help regain

:51:17.:51:22.

stability. How long I ask is temporary? The effects of monetary

:51:23.:51:29.

policy have to some extent I would argue and agreeing with my

:51:30.:51:33.

honourable friend, the crofter, have been undermined by a great extent by

:51:34.:51:42.

the austerity agenda, now leaving a legacy of unintended consequences

:51:43.:51:45.

that had an unprecedented burden on future generations. Broadly

:51:46.:51:49.

speaking, the policies being followed by central banks around the

:51:50.:51:54.

world benefit a relatively narrow group of people. Rich individuals

:51:55.:52:02.

and investment banks but few others. It's the unintended, the unintended

:52:03.:52:09.

consequences of QE that must now be the focus of policymakers. As my

:52:10.:52:15.

friend wrote to me Tim Walker a few days ago, he said, I great. If they

:52:16.:52:28.

were here, the Bank of England, I suspect they would say everyone

:52:29.:52:31.

benefited from the reality there would've been our worst recession if

:52:32.:52:35.

they have not have acted. I wonder if he agrees with me that that

:52:36.:52:40.

argument is wearing thin? Thank you. It looks as if you read the next

:52:41.:52:46.

part of my speech. But it allows me to hate along and agree precisely

:52:47.:52:49.

with what the honourable member has said. -- haste. Jim Walker, he put

:52:50.:52:59.

part of the issue, interest rates through history have not only in the

:53:00.:53:04.

cost of capital of the reward or threat, they have also been

:53:05.:53:08.

signalling mechanism about the future and we now know that Syria

:53:09.:53:13.

interest rates and QE tell business owners and entrepreneurs that there

:53:14.:53:18.

is no growth of all little growth coming. They there for encourage

:53:19.:53:23.

businesses to hold cash and be extremely cautious with investment

:53:24.:53:28.

so the signalling mechanisms of the effect has had a different effect to

:53:29.:53:33.

those predicted by Friedman, it is time again to review this. It would

:53:34.:53:38.

be difficult to argue that QE has led therefore to the increasing

:53:39.:53:42.

confidence and investment that was argued for it. And we can see other

:53:43.:53:49.

consequences. Despite for example, eight years of near zero interest

:53:50.:53:56.

rates, fixed capital formation is still 2.8% below the peak reached in

:53:57.:54:02.

2007. Thus intervention and investment in the Bill economy has

:54:03.:54:06.

not been boosted in the way that it was originally thought. And there is

:54:07.:54:09.

a kind of similar the non-has been going on in other aspects of the

:54:10.:54:13.

economy. The way in which it has afflicted households and the demand

:54:14.:54:19.

side. Zero interest rates and asset passengers were supposed to convince

:54:20.:54:22.

ordinary people to borrow and spend more immediately.

:54:23.:54:30.

This song groups of ordinary people have reacted by saving more. To

:54:31.:54:45.

provide for old age, the cannot rely on the curb of interest rates.

:54:46.:54:53.

Instead of encouraging this group of people to spend, policies have

:54:54.:55:06.

encouraged them to save more. Such savers understandably angry. They

:55:07.:55:11.

have zero income, from the savings. I am not somebody, I have a

:55:12.:55:20.

well-paid job, but I wonder what some people have been feeling,

:55:21.:55:30.

having a Cash ISA, and before the crash it was common to get 6%. I

:55:31.:55:36.

received a letter, pointing out that as from the 1st of December, the

:55:37.:55:43.

interest rate was going to be reduced, to 0.1%. I think that the

:55:44.:55:52.

time has come, to undertake the critical review. We have got to

:55:53.:55:59.

finish at five o'clock. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. We need the small,

:56:00.:56:10.

but enthusiastic band this afternoon, but we have been

:56:11.:56:15.

undertaking this over the entire Western world, one of the most

:56:16.:56:23.

extraordinary experiments. And if it goes wrong, it has devastating

:56:24.:56:35.

consequences for the economy. We may find that it only delays the

:56:36.:56:44.

explosion of the world economy. I hope that the Bank of England, and

:56:45.:56:48.

regulating authorities are listening. This is not an attack on

:56:49.:56:57.

the Bank of England, an emergency at 2008, quantitative easing was a

:56:58.:57:07.

device, but as all members have said that this debate, we should be

:57:08.:57:11.

looking at what else needs to be done. To give an analogy, to those

:57:12.:57:27.

in need, a fire in the financial system, a high pressure hose, but

:57:28.:57:36.

once that dampens down, you destroy everything. And that is what we are

:57:37.:57:42.

dealing with. The unintended consequences, it is contributing to

:57:43.:57:53.

global deflation, but we have had deflation, destroying the propensity

:57:54.:58:02.

to save, and destroying bank profits. Has anybody looked at share

:58:03.:58:13.

prices? We saved them, 2008, who is going to do something about this?

:58:14.:58:29.

And in the last two rounds, of QE, started the process of competitive

:58:30.:58:33.

devaluation. Going back to the 1930s. It is the responsibility of

:58:34.:58:39.

everybody, once everybody does that, it is the 1930 situation.

:58:40.:58:51.

Inevitably, political tensions, the Chinese government you can see what

:58:52.:58:56.

is happening. The exchange rate competition is dangerous. And of

:58:57.:59:13.

course, it has distorted asset prices. It is clear, that the

:59:14.:59:23.

industrial investments could be the wrong ones, once those rebound. That

:59:24.:59:34.

has made people nervous. I disagree gently, with my honourable friend, I

:59:35.:59:40.

do not think it is a question of using QE for something else. If you

:59:41.:59:46.

look at the recent announcement by the Bank of England, the 10 million

:59:47.:59:54.

at the company keeper, it has chosen 300 bonds, investing 10 million over

:59:55.:00:01.

the next 18 months. What was the choice? Companies that have the

:00:02.:00:10.

material contribution, and let me read you some of the companies that

:00:11.:00:13.

they are planning to put the money into. Apple, IBM, Pepsi. UPS.

:00:14.:00:28.

Walmart. Funding Wall St. We are supposed to be pulling out of the

:00:29.:00:44.

EU. BMW. Eon. Also, the champagne on the government lost. EDF. I agree

:00:45.:00:55.

with honourable gentleman, that the bank definition of material

:00:56.:00:59.

contribution, it is inadequate. And like him, I do not think it is

:01:00.:01:12.

helpful to be investing into fizzy drinks, but Siemens have got the

:01:13.:01:15.

fantastic development at East Yorkshire. I do not think he is

:01:16.:01:26.

arguing against... I take the point. But what is underlining this, of

:01:27.:01:43.

those 300 bonds, only six British manufacturing companies. It is

:01:44.:01:50.

concentrated, on receiving the banking system, at the expense of

:01:51.:01:56.

the manufacturing system. Briefly, what do we do next? I think we

:01:57.:02:05.

should consider shifting the targets of the Bank of England, the

:02:06.:02:12.

inflation target was wrong, it has no anchor. That has been raising

:02:13.:02:19.

dangerous. I think we should be looking at nominal GDP targeting.

:02:20.:02:32.

Having to look at automatic fiscal measures. Recession or boom. And

:02:33.:02:42.

that is bringing us back to the question, of the fiscal

:02:43.:02:44.

intervention. At some stage, we are going to have two unwind QE and that

:02:45.:02:50.

has to be done in a controlled fashion. We have to look at the

:02:51.:02:58.

timetable, for the unwind, that would help the markets to adjust.

:02:59.:03:06.

But the danger, when we start to unwind, that the National rate of

:03:07.:03:10.

interest has fallen, monetary is has been undermined by historical

:03:11.:03:19.

generations. I think it would be unwise to unwind QE in the United

:03:20.:03:25.

Kingdom, it has to be an international approach. That must

:03:26.:03:29.

involve some of the subclass companies, Germany, using that in a

:03:30.:03:38.

controlled fashion, to Gustav. And finally, I think in the Autumn

:03:39.:03:45.

Statement, it is bound on the government, not to leave all the

:03:46.:03:48.

behaviour listening to the Bank of England. The government should make

:03:49.:03:51.

the intervention, in order to allow the transition. Thank you Mr Deputy

:03:52.:04:02.

Speaker. I want to thank the honourable member, for bringing this

:04:03.:04:13.

debate today. Enabling this, and I agree that discussing this in a

:04:14.:04:17.

constructive fashion is a fair point. I agree with comments about

:04:18.:04:24.

where inequality, that could be as far as we go, given that he is a

:04:25.:04:31.

member of the Austrian School. And other honourable friend, always

:04:32.:04:36.

insightful, talking about inequalities. And how QE could be

:04:37.:04:43.

able to overcome them. The honourable member frock coat and is,

:04:44.:04:51.

it was interesting as ever. Talking about inequalities, the balance

:04:52.:04:57.

between fiscal and monetary. It has to be the focus of attention. And

:04:58.:05:03.

finally, the member for East Lothian, talking about unintended

:05:04.:05:06.

consequences of QE. In response to a question about confidence in QE the

:05:07.:05:14.

former chairman of the Federal reserve half jokingly said it worked

:05:15.:05:23.

in practice, but not in theory! But such an off the cuff comment... It

:05:24.:05:28.

has some validity. That is the essence of the debate. Many will

:05:29.:05:34.

remember the former Labour Chancellor, Alistair Darling talking

:05:35.:05:41.

about QE, in 2009. Difficult times, resource for measures, and the

:05:42.:05:44.

Labour government had to consider all the potential responses, and

:05:45.:05:51.

this was not an isolated action. Other countries had also taken

:05:52.:05:56.

similar courses, to some degree. First round of QE resulted in guilt

:05:57.:06:08.

purchases. And by the 2010 general election, 210 billion had been added

:06:09.:06:13.

to the balance sheet. That remains. The prediction, about

:06:14.:06:16.

hyperinflation, has been long forgotten. As I suggested, the

:06:17.:06:25.

effects of this approach are still being debated. That has been brought

:06:26.:06:30.

from the debate. But we should acknowledge the willingness of the

:06:31.:06:34.

Labour government, to consider messages outside of the usual range.

:06:35.:06:42.

The then Chancellor restarted the QE programme, giving authority to the

:06:43.:06:47.

Bank of England, to print another 200 billion, for the purchase of

:06:48.:06:52.

government bonds. However, unlike the QE process under the last Labour

:06:53.:06:57.

government, the incarnation took place at the same time as the

:06:58.:07:03.

Coalition Government, budgeting year after year for more and more deeper

:07:04.:07:08.

cuts. As alluded to earlier, opinion remains divided about the

:07:09.:07:14.

effectiveness of QE. But in order to judge that, we have two agree on

:07:15.:07:18.

what the objectives were. Little consensus. If the goal was to

:07:19.:07:30.

support nominal demand... It would seem to be agreement, inflation was

:07:31.:07:36.

going to be lower without QE. Academic studies have consistently

:07:37.:07:41.

said that inflation, five years ago, was 1% higher than it been without

:07:42.:07:52.

QE. If the objective was to support GDP, little agreement. The Bank of

:07:53.:07:56.

England has estimated economic role would have been 1.5% lower, of

:07:57.:08:07.

studies have been ranging from close to zero, to 0.2 points. The debate

:08:08.:08:12.

is good to continue for something, and this party is good to be closely

:08:13.:08:19.

watching developments. Third. Another potential motivation for QE

:08:20.:08:23.

was to increase the supply of credit. Still some considerable

:08:24.:08:26.

uncertainty, about the extent of it achieving this objective. That has

:08:27.:08:33.

been touched on the day. Last July, a post on the Bank of England blog

:08:34.:08:40.

argued they had little evidence of QE boosting, little evidence to

:08:41.:08:46.

suggest that QE boosted lending, through the bank lending channel.

:08:47.:08:50.

Other opinions, available. But when we look at the success of QE, we

:08:51.:08:55.

have to take into account the circumstances which it happened.

:08:56.:09:05.

First round under conditions of fiscal policy, unfortunately the

:09:06.:09:09.

Chancellor of the Exchequer between 2010 in 2016, adopted the fiscal

:09:10.:09:14.

approach, at odds with almost every respected economist. Repeatedly

:09:15.:09:19.

targeting the small deficit, even when these historic spirit image was

:09:20.:09:21.

failed to achieve the stated aim. The previous Chancellor's record

:09:22.:09:31.

will not be looked unfavourably by history. This party welcomed the

:09:32.:09:35.

statements from the Prime Minister and her Chancellor, that they will

:09:36.:09:39.

ignore the only remaining target of the latest chapter for budgetary

:09:40.:09:42.

responsibility which lies in tatters after less than the year. A dawning

:09:43.:09:49.

realisation that the surplus was unlikely to be achieved in 2020 may

:09:50.:09:54.

have finally put an end to the failed economic approach that has

:09:55.:09:58.

characterised the past six years. But we remain in the dark about what

:09:59.:10:03.

will replace it. Britain is on hold while we wait for another two months

:10:04.:10:07.

to find out even the most basic outline of the new Government's

:10:08.:10:11.

fiscal policy. The Labour Party and millions more nationwide will hope

:10:12.:10:16.

that the new Chancellor who sat at the Cabinet table throughout the

:10:17.:10:18.

last administration does not repeat the same mistakes. Until the

:10:19.:10:27.

Chancellor puts his, pull his finger out and finally outlines his plans,

:10:28.:10:30.

the Bank of England has sole responsibility to ensure the economy

:10:31.:10:36.

gets you the prospective uncertainty. The committee and is

:10:37.:10:42.

the restarting of QE, including further purchases of Government

:10:43.:10:44.

bonds but also ?10 billion of corporate bonds. This is busy too

:10:45.:10:50.

early to say whether these actions will deliver against the criteria

:10:51.:10:53.

mentioned earlier which my honourable friend but that too.

:10:54.:10:57.

Indeed the statement of the NBC today in indicates that the bank

:10:58.:11:01.

continues to keep a watchful eye on the effects of QE and particular and

:11:02.:11:09.

macro economic environment. Last year, they began their own bills

:11:10.:11:14.

beat QE programme. Similarly in many regards to their own. It also

:11:15.:11:19.

includes bowls issued by institutions including the banks. --

:11:20.:11:27.

bonds. If we had a UK national investment bank then another

:11:28.:11:30.

possible policy would be made available to the bag which was

:11:31.:11:35.

alluded to by my honourable friend. -- bag. Will it would be made by the

:11:36.:11:44.

MPC and my honourable friend the Shadow Chancellor pointed out that

:11:45.:11:50.

the operation depended of the NPC is sacrosanct. This would include any

:11:51.:11:57.

decisions about QE convention than a conventional or otherwise. There

:11:58.:12:00.

must be a serious consideration of any distributional impacts. As early

:12:01.:12:05.

as 2012, the Bank of England released a report of its own looking

:12:06.:12:09.

at potential outcomes, various questions about the effect on

:12:10.:12:14.

pension schemes, especially those already in deficit, that concludes

:12:15.:12:17.

with the QE that has already taken place amounted to an increase of

:12:18.:12:22.

wealth of ?10,000 per person if it was equally distributed. And of

:12:23.:12:27.

course if you think that the benefits of this increase well have

:12:28.:12:31.

been equally distributed. By increasing the value of assets, the

:12:32.:12:35.

bank 's own research suggests that those already hold assets will have

:12:36.:12:39.

benefited disproportionately. They note that the wealthiest 5% of the

:12:40.:12:44.

abolition hold 40% of non-tension patterns. But no one should be

:12:45.:12:50.

surprised by this. One of the aims of QE has too been pushed down

:12:51.:12:54.

interest rates and to push up the value of shares and other assets,

:12:55.:12:59.

including housing. Given that the ownership of shares and other

:13:00.:13:02.

financial assets is concentrated on fairly amongst people we should not

:13:03.:13:07.

be surprised at that particular issue. So as far as we are

:13:08.:13:11.

concerned, we would welcome any further study to be conducted by the

:13:12.:13:18.

Government all others into the effectiveness of monetary policy and

:13:19.:13:22.

so we shall support this motion. Most importantly however, the

:13:23.:13:25.

country needs a signal from the Chancellor about his future

:13:26.:13:28.

intentions for fiscal policy, and waiting until November is not good

:13:29.:13:32.

enough. We know that they're in assumptions about future interest

:13:33.:13:34.

rates will keep down public borrowing that we need to know

:13:35.:13:38.

whether the investment of the country urgently needs is finally on

:13:39.:13:42.

the way or not. We cannot afford to rely on the Bank of England alone

:13:43.:13:45.

take responsibility or managing the macroeconomy. Thank you. Let me

:13:46.:13:58.

start by thanking the member, the honourable member for securing this

:13:59.:14:06.

debate here today. The subject of quantitative easing is one that

:14:07.:14:10.

attracts a wide range of opinions as they think has been convincingly

:14:11.:14:14.

demonstrated here today in this chamber, if I say so today's

:14:15.:14:20.

backbench business debate has been an example of something that is

:14:21.:14:25.

small but perfectly formal. It has been an interesting debate. So this

:14:26.:14:29.

is a topic of real importance to our economy and I know members from

:14:30.:14:32.

across the House who will join me in thanking him for giving us all the

:14:33.:14:38.

opportunity to discuss it. Let me begin by just setting up very

:14:39.:14:41.

briefly the Bank of England's role in the monetary policy of this

:14:42.:14:45.

country. And the first thing to stress is that the Bank of England

:14:46.:14:52.

and its NPC is of course and rightly so independent from the Government.

:14:53.:14:56.

This committee holds responsibility for setting monetary policy to meet

:14:57.:14:59.

its clearly defined objectives as set out in law. And its primary

:15:00.:15:05.

objective is to maintain price stability to find by the

:15:06.:15:09.

Government's inflation target of 2% as measured under the CBI. The

:15:10.:15:16.

committee are empowered to deploy unconventional policy measures, such

:15:17.:15:18.

as quantitative easing when necessary in order to meet this

:15:19.:15:23.

objective. And wherever such instrument IQs, the committed's

:15:24.:15:28.

expected to work with the Government to make sure that appropriate

:15:29.:15:32.

Government arrangements are in place to ensure that accountability.

:15:33.:15:39.

Following the financial crisis in 2009, as members of this House were

:15:40.:15:43.

fully aware, the bank or authorised to begin quantitative easing,

:15:44.:15:46.

establishing an asset purchase facility to improve liquidity in

:15:47.:15:51.

credit markets. This provided an additional two for which the banks

:15:52.:15:56.

committee could adjust our monetary policy and in August of this year,

:15:57.:16:01.

the MPC judge that in the absence of monetary stimulus there would be

:16:02.:16:09.

undesirable volatility in output and employment and sustainable return of

:16:10.:16:12.

inflation to the target in the medium term less likely. As a

:16:13.:16:17.

result, the committed expanded its programme of acid publishers and

:16:18.:16:22.

established a funding scheme to ensure banks passed on the benefits

:16:23.:16:26.

of low interest rates to our businesses and to the public as a

:16:27.:16:33.

whole. -- asset purchases. While the markets have responded polity, it

:16:34.:16:35.

will take several months before we know how the economy has truly

:16:36.:16:41.

responded. -- positively. As is always the case. I will need to pass

:16:42.:16:45.

before it can be possible to make a full assessment of the latest round

:16:46.:16:49.

of asset purchases and indeed with the Government and the MPC plays

:16:50.:16:56.

enormous weight on the need to research the wider impacts of

:16:57.:17:00.

monetary policy across our society. In line with our determination to

:17:01.:17:04.

make sure this is a country that works for everyone, we want to make

:17:05.:17:07.

sure that our businesses and the general public as a whole all

:17:08.:17:12.

benefit from the lower pricing borrowing costs established to the

:17:13.:17:16.

back's monetary policies. If I may move wanted some points raised. The

:17:17.:17:20.

honourable member, the modest crofter from Skye also mentioned the

:17:21.:17:29.

need for fiscal stimulus. Monetary policy tools on the first line of

:17:30.:17:33.

defence against a macro economic shock and the Government will set

:17:34.:17:36.

out its fiscal plans in the usual way, the usual way in the Autumn

:17:37.:17:45.

Statement. He mentioned all suggested that growth in M4 in the

:17:46.:17:49.

last eight years since QE came in, I have to say to him the relationship

:17:50.:17:53.

between monetary aggregates and inflation is tenuous and that

:17:54.:17:59.

monetary aggregates are not systematically targeted by central

:18:00.:18:04.

banks. In order to target monetary aggregates, there would have to be a

:18:05.:18:07.

direct relationship between the monetary supply and inflation and

:18:08.:18:10.

for this to be the case, there would have to be a degree of stability in

:18:11.:18:14.

the velocity of money, the speed of which money circulates around the

:18:15.:18:18.

economy. I hope that is very clear. He mentioned the impact on savers,

:18:19.:18:23.

building a strong economy is in everyone's interest and the MBC

:18:24.:18:26.

remit makes clear ensuring price stability is the prerequisite for

:18:27.:18:32.

economic prosperity. He mentioned pensions, the best possible

:18:33.:18:38.

protection for pensions comes from strong sustainably employees and a

:18:39.:18:43.

buoyant economy so it is important and action is taken to support that

:18:44.:18:47.

economy. My right honourable friend from Wicken obviously speaks with

:18:48.:18:54.

passion on this subject and it is obviously a matter that is of great

:18:55.:19:00.

interest to him. I have looked at his excellent website where he

:19:01.:19:07.

considers for instance among other matters whether the whole economic

:19:08.:19:13.

system runs on funny money. He mentions wealth inequality and

:19:14.:19:19.

wealth justice, these are two very important areas and the Governor of

:19:20.:19:28.

the Bank of England has stated this package will ensure a better

:19:29.:19:31.

economic outcome will all economic recovery it will boost incomes and

:19:32.:19:37.

help all individuals, including those of the low side of the

:19:38.:19:40.

economic this division, inequality is low and we should not forget

:19:41.:19:46.

this, and it was in 2010. I would rather not give way because I am

:19:47.:19:50.

trying to answer everyone's point that they have raised and I do not

:19:51.:19:54.

have a lot of time because everyone has been so fulsome in their

:19:55.:19:57.

contributions but she can speak to me afterwards if she wants to raise

:19:58.:20:00.

an additional point. I would be really pleased to do that. The

:20:01.:20:19.

honourable lady opposite mentioned that the goodies responsively at the

:20:20.:20:22.

Embassy of the Bank of England and she questioned whether this was

:20:23.:20:28.

right and questioned the accountability of the Bank of

:20:29.:20:32.

England. I say to her that members of this House have the opportunity

:20:33.:20:36.

to engage with the monetary policy committee through example, the

:20:37.:20:38.

inflation report hearings in the Treasury Select Committee and that

:20:39.:20:44.

the monetary policy committee are also accountable to the public, for

:20:45.:20:48.

instance, in October, the governor and the deputy governor will spend

:20:49.:20:51.

the day in the Midlands, meeting with a wide cross-section of society

:20:52.:20:54.

to listen to the feedback and ideas of the public. I am very sure that

:20:55.:20:58.

they would take that feedback and those ideas very seriously. The

:20:59.:21:09.

member was very interesting perhaps, the most interesting points was the

:21:10.:21:15.

description of the crofter from Skye that is clearly still is very

:21:16.:21:19.

passionately about the subject and I think he made a useful contribution

:21:20.:21:26.

to the debate. The member for East Lothian, I wanted to hear more about

:21:27.:21:29.

the Autumn Statement, I'm very sad to tell him he won't be

:21:30.:21:33.

disappointed, he will just have to wait and see as happens every year

:21:34.:21:37.

in the normal manner. No matter who is the Government of the day. The

:21:38.:21:47.

honourable member reminded us of what is now a dim and receding

:21:48.:21:54.

memory of the last Labour Government, had was going to be

:21:55.:21:58.

hyperinflation, it didn't happen and the whole issue of QE was hotly

:21:59.:22:02.

debated at the time and I would imagine it is something that we are

:22:03.:22:05.

going to continue to hotly debated for some time. So to conclude, Mr

:22:06.:22:14.

Deputy Speaker, the independent MBC of the Bank of England has a hugely

:22:15.:22:18.

important role in these difficult times to play, in maintaining

:22:19.:22:24.

monetary stability in this country, they have taken a range of steps to

:22:25.:22:30.

achieve this objective and will be closely monitoring the impact of

:22:31.:22:33.

this action. Let me remind the House, once again, members can take

:22:34.:22:38.

an interest, it remains accountable to Parliament and I would suggest

:22:39.:22:45.

that many more people took an interest in the inflation report

:22:46.:22:48.

hearings of the Treasury committee. Thank you very much. Thank you very

:22:49.:22:55.

much. Let me thank the backbench business committee for granting this

:22:56.:22:59.

debate and for all the members that have posted they did this afternoon.

:23:00.:23:03.

I think we found a well-informed fascinating debate. I hope this is

:23:04.:23:07.

the start of something where we are signalled to the Bank of England

:23:08.:23:10.

that sure we will get a report from the proceedings today that we wish

:23:11.:23:13.

to see more of a fundamental analysis of the outcomes of the QE

:23:14.:23:17.

programme and I think are very clear message to the Government which has

:23:18.:23:20.

been shown by a thick or the actions that we have seen internationally,

:23:21.:23:25.

he works of the OECD, you will as authority, there has to be the

:23:26.:23:29.

linkage between monetary and fiscal policy and a very strong message has

:23:30.:23:31.

been made by a member of numbers that we have to make sure that we

:23:32.:23:35.

deal with wealth inequality and I look forward to carrying on this

:23:36.:23:39.

debate, I look forward to the Government is addressing this in the

:23:40.:23:40.

Autumn Statement. "Subtitles will resume on 'Thursday

:23:41.:23:42.

In Parliament' at 2300."

:23:43.:23:53.

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