Browse content similar to 15/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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dismayed to hear about that case. Questions on October 18 may provide | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
the opportunity he is seeking. Personal statement, Mr Justin | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
Tomlinson. With your permission, I would like to make a personal | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
statement. In response to the report published by the privilege committee | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
today and the report published by the Parliamentary Commissioner for | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
standards, I wanted to dig the opportunity to make a full and | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
unreserved apology to you and the House. In 2013, I breached the rules | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
of conduct by sharing a draft report by the committee of Public accounts | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
regarding the regulation of consumer credit and investigation by the | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
Parliamentary commission of standards was initiated in 2015 | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
following a complaint made by wonder. I accept the findings of the | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
published today and the reports submitted by the commission of | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
standards. I accept that my actions in sharing the report constitute an | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
interference in the work and committee, and for this I am truly | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
sorry. This was never my intention. These actions came as a result of my | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
own naivete, driven by a desire to strengthen regulations on payday | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
lenders and protect vulnerable consumers. The commission of the | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
standards confirmed this is my motivation based on evidence I have | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
worked on Prost party campaigns to protect consumers, and I had long | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
argued that tighter regulation of the page lending industry. I welcome | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
the report that my actions weren't motivated by financial gain, and I | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
did not act in the way I did for financial gain, nor with the | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
intention of reflecting the views of the company concerned. I appreciate | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
acknowledgement that shall newspaper story following the investigation | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
was unsubstantiated. I have accepted full responsibility since the very | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
beginning of this process and acknowledged in the report I | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
provided and unreserved acceptance of the findings of the Commissioner | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
and have worked fully throughout three different enquiries. I would | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
like to add both my thanks to the privileges committee, the clerk of | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
the committee and the Commissioner the standard lead the diligent work | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
in this process. Mr Speaker, I reiterate my apology today and | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
ungrateful the House has allowed me to make this apology at the earliest | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
opportunity. I thank the honourable gentleman for what he said under way | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
in which he said it. The matter rests there. That is the of it. | :02:22. | :02:29. | |
Statement, the Secretary of State for culture, media and sport, Karen | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
Bradley. With permission, I would like to make a statement. Today I am | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
laying before Parliament a draft of the Royal Charter for the | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
continuance of the BBC. Together with the company and draft framework | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
agreement between the government and the BBC. The latter sets up detail | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
behind the charter, including how the BBC will operate in the new | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
Charter period. These draft is set out the policies contained in the | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
White Paper for the BBC of the future, a broadcaster of | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
distinction, published in May. This white Paper was a culmination of one | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
of the largest public consultations ever. More than 190,000 members of | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
the public, as well as industry stakeholders and experts, gave their | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
views on how the government could enable the BBC to continue to | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
deliver world-class content and services over the next 11 years. The | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
consultation served as a reminder that the BBC matters deeply to this | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
country. As it does to people right across the world. Far from | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
diminishing the BBC, our changes strengthen it. I am very grateful to | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
my predecessor, the right honourable member for Maldon, for all his | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
brilliant work on the BBC. My department has worked very closely | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
with both the BBC and off,, who are taken on the job of being the BBC's | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
first independent regulator to develop and agree these draft | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
documents. Mr Speaker, I am a huge fan of the BBC. At its best, it is | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
peerless. Our aim is to ensure that a strong, distinctive, independent | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
BBC will continue to thrive for years to come. And also to improve | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
the BBC where we can. And can I extend my personal thanks to both | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
Tony Hall and Rowan Fairhead and their teams for their commitment to | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
making this work? The new Charter agreement will enable a number of | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
improvements, Mr Speaker. They enhance the distinctiveness of BBC | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
content and the BBC's mission and public purposes have been reformed | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
to reflect this requirement. The governance and regulation of the BBC | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
will also be reformed. The new BBC board will be responsible for | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
governing the BBC and off, will take under regulation the BBC. The | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
charter and agreement sets out functions and obligations that the | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
BBC and Ofcom must follow to deliver this. The charter recognises the | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
need for the BBC to be independent, particularly in editorial matters. | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
And the BBC will appoint a majority of the members of the new board with | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
strict rules to ensure all appointments are made fairly and | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
openly. The charter also provides financial stability to the BBC. By | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
making clear that the licence fee will remain the key source of | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
funding for the BBC for the next Charter period. Obligations for the | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
BBC to consider both negative and positive market impacts of the | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
activities are set out in the charter. Ofcom must also keep these | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
in mind when renewing new and changed services. The BBC is obliged | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
to work closely with others and share its knowledge, research and | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
expertise for wider public benefit. The government wants a BBC that is | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
as open and transparent as possible. The charter sets out new obligations | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
in this regard. Including publishing the salaries of those employees and | :06:31. | :06:40. | |
talent who earn more than ?150,000. The BBC serves all nations and | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
regions. It needs to be more reflective of the whole of the UK | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
and the new Charter requires space with a mission and public services. | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
This will be supported by specific board representation including the | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
nation members, which were the first time will be agreed with the | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
administrations of Northern Ireland, as well as for Scotland, as is the | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
case. Provision for the nations will be regulated by off gone through a | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
new operating licence regime, which will include continuing the approach | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
of production targets for making programmes outside London. One of | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
the BBC's many responsibilities is to bring people together. Mr | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
Speaker, supporting and encouraging greater cohesion, not least among | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
the nations of this United Kingdom. Mr Speaker, we have made | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
considerable progress since the publication of the White Paper and | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
resolved a number of important areas with the BBC, allowing us to go | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
further in the key areas of transparency, fairness and securing | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
independence for the BBC. In addition to the principle of necks | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
are public and made appointments, all made in line with best practice, | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
I can confirm the charter sets out that the BBC will appoint nine board | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
members, including five nonexecutive directors, and that an additional | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
five will be public appointments. This means the BBC will appoint the | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
majority of members to its new board. This ensures the independence | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
of the BBC board and that each nation of the UK will have a voice. | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
This will strengthen the BBC's independence from the position where | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
all BBC Trustees were appointed by the government. The National Audit | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
Office will become the BBC's financial auditor. In addition, the | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
charter will enhance the role and access and allow it to conduct value | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
for money studies on the BBC's commercial subsidiaries. | :08:47. | :08:57. | |
There will be greater transparency with a fool, fair and open | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
competition for the post of chair of the new BBC board. This is in-line | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
with the culture select committee 's recommendation. It is a significant | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
new post and transparency and fairness in making the employment is | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
vital, not least so that industry and the public have confidence. I am | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
grateful to Rona Fairhead who has decided not to be a candidate for | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
the new post, for the work she has done as chair of the BBC trust, and | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
in particular for her help in reforming the governance of the BBC. | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
The fundamental reforms set out in the draft charter will take time to | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
implement, given the complexity of the changes, the need for a smooth | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
transition and the importance of consulting on some elements of the | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
new regulatory structure. There will be a short period of transition | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
before the BBC board and of common take on their new governors and | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
regulatory roles on the 3rd of April next year. -- and Ofcom take on. We | :10:03. | :10:18. | |
will work closely with the BBC .com to make sure all elements of | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
transition are managed smoothly, to ensure the new BBC board will be | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
established. Members of both houses will now have a chance to consider | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
the proposals in detail. To help them with that, I have today | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
deposited a series of information sheets in the libraries of both | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
houses. I have also sent the draft documents to the devolved | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
administrations, in order that the devolved legislatures will be able | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
to debate them over the coming weeks. My DC MS ministerial | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
colleagues and I look forward to parliamentary debates on the draft | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
policy in due course. It will then be given to the Privy Council. The | :11:05. | :11:14. | |
BBC is one of this country's greatest achievements and greatest | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
treasures. These reforms ensure it will continue to be cherished at | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
home and abroad for many years to come, and I commend the statement to | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
the House. Thank you. May I first thank the Secretary of State for | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
prior sight of her statement. The BBC is one of Britain's greatest | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
achievements and treasures, and the broadcaster against which other | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
broadcasters across the world are judged, and the quality of | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
programmes are second to none. The BBC must be protected and sustained | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
and its independence and funding. Would she accept that both of these | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
are under some degree of threat? Is it not the case that the charter | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
will sustain a degree of pressure under the BBC having government | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
appointees on its new board, but more significantly would she accept | :12:06. | :12:14. | |
that by introducing mid-term, this will put pressure on the BBC to look | :12:15. | :12:24. | |
over its shoulder and seek to avoid upsetting governments when it should | :12:25. | :12:26. | |
be genuinely independent and free to comment without fear or favour on | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
what governments do. How will viewers and listeners be assured | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
that the five-year health check will not put undue pressure on the BBC | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
and be interpreted as a charter review? The new board with a number | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
of government appointees responsible for decision-making could weaken the | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
editorial independence. What guarantees would she give that the | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
undue pressures from government would not affect BBC independence? | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
Regarding funding, what assurances does she have for Lord Patten, what | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
answers does she have for him, former chair of the BBC and | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
conservative cabinet minister, that the BBC's financial security will be | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
affected now it's cost of the over 75 TV licences are foisted on them, | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
a decision he described as a heist. We take the view that welfare | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
benefits such as the TV licences should be decided and paid for by | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
government, not squeezed out of the BBC staff and programming, other | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
licence fee payers and other pensioners. What answer does she | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
have two that there and logical case? The government has also | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
suggested that the BBC should have distinctiveness, a major departure | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
from the view that the BBC should inform, educate and entertain. | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
Channel 4 was created to bring distinctiveness to viewing, but as I | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
direct affect on the squeeze of BBC funding, great BBC entertainment | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
programmes are being moved to Channel 4. Is there not a threat | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
that more of these programmes could follow? Even more worrying than that | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
is that BBC funding might be further top sliced in future, can she give | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
guarantees that this will not happen? Will she look again at | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
government policy and its relationship with the BBC and give | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
guarantees that the charter will not diminish the scope and effectiveness | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
of the BBC? Will she accept that change is now being brought forward | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
by government wants damage the BBC and its independence and its ability | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
to put on the finest programmes because of the impact on its | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
funding? It should be able to continue to put on the finest | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
programmes across the range of its broadcasting. What assurances can | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
the government give back if transferring regulation of the BBC | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
to offer, it will retain its independence? What assurances can | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
she give that the BBC will be able to carry on making programmes we all | :14:57. | :15:14. | |
enjoy. Finally... Can I thank him for his comments and I agree with | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
him that the BBC must be protected and sustained. The work we have done | :15:20. | :15:27. | |
is to make sure the BBC cannot just survive but flourish in a new era, | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
where it is not the world where everyone sat down and watched the | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
same programme at the same time. People are accessing TV programmes | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
in different ways and we want to make sure that this charter, which | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
is an 11 year charter, for the first she -- for the first time we have | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
made it an 11 year charter so it does not coincide with the electoral | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
cycle, so there is no political influence on it. In addition, we do | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
want to make sure this is the longest charter there has ever been, | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
and therefore a mid-term review to ensure the BBC is still delivering | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
what licence fee payers, which we all are, want to see is a very | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
important part of the proposals. I must pick up on the point about the | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
deputy chair of. There is no longer a deputy chair within the broad | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
structure. There is a chair for a nation members that our government, | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
public appointments. It is very important that we have a member for | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
each of the nations on the board and that that is a full public | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
appointment and that the chair is also an open and transparent | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
appointment, but we're not appointing a deputy chair, that is a | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
matter for the board to determine who the senior independent director | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
should be. He mentioned distinctiveness and ensuring | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
distinctiveness. The board distinctiveness is taken from the | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
White Paper, which was a result of the consultation for which we had | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
the hundreds -- 190,000 responses. The largest consultation of its | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
kind. I accept his point about Channel 4 and making sure there is a | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
difference between Channel 4 and the BBC, but for licence fee payers and | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
for us as a nation, the distinctiveness of the BBC is what | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
makes it so great. It is the thing that makes the BBC something that we | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
can sell across the world. Over the summer I don't think there is any | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
offers who did not come into contact with some form of BBC content while | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
we were abroad on original idea that was being shown locally or talked | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
about locally. He talks about editorial independence. This charter | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
is setting out editorial independence and ensuring this is an | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
entirely independent BBC. I think it is worth also saying that while | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
public appointments will be public appointment is going through the | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
full process, once they are board members they are BBC board members | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
working towards ensuring the BBC is the greatest it possibly can be. | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
Finally he made a point about funding. On the over 75 TV licences | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
point, if I could quote the director-general, Tony Hall, he said | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
in July 2015, the government's decision to bid the cost of the over | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
75 on as has been more than matched by the deal coming back for the BBC. | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
As I mentioned earlier there is another statement to follow, then | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
two debates to take place under the auspices of the backbench business | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
committee, of which the first is notably well subscribed, so there is | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
a premium on brevity. Can I appeal to colleagues, even distinguished | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
backbench members, to avoid discoverers of commentary or lengthy | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
preamble, and just get to an enquiry. Will she confirmed that | :19:02. | :19:13. | |
this draft charter is not, as some have said, either a damp squib or | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
the brainchild of Rupert Murdoch? Does she agree that the charter | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
makes significant changes, including the new governance structure, the | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
new requirements, diversity, distinctiveness and impartiality, | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
the opening up of a schedule to 100% competition, and full access to the | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
NAO, that these changes will ensure that the BBC continues to be the | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
best broadcaster in the world? Yes, I agree. My right honourable friend, | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
we owe a great debt to him for the place we are with the charter today. | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
May I thank the Secretary of State for advanced sight of this. We're | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
great champions of public service broadcasting. There are a number of | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
her announcements which we welcome. We welcome the commitment to | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
equality and diversity, we welcome the commitment to transparency and | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
openness. As you know, this is something we have not always seen in | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
the BBC, not least with the appointment of Lorna Fairhead, as we | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
discovered at the select committee hearings, she was appointed after a | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
cosy private chat with the Prime Minister, which is not the way that | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
significant appointment should be made. -- Rhona Fairhead. She is | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
entirely right to throw open disappointment to public | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
competition. -- this appointment to public competition. We also welcome | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
the conditions and talent pay. Does she agree that the BBC argument that | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
this will be a charter to poach talent is quite simply nonsense? If | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
your agent is worth his or her salt, they will know exactly how much you | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
and all your competition are paid. I know this from bitter experience. | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
What the danger of this particular announcement is, perhaps she would | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
agree, is that the BBC will be forced to reveal the salaries of | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
many of its more mediocre but overpaid employees, and there may be | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
some teeth gnashing as a result when they discover what goes on behind | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
closed doors. We welcome the recognition of gay leak, but will | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
she go further for us and tell us whether this | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
Whether this should be Welsh? -- - Gaelic. It says one of the BBC... He | :21:50. | :22:03. | |
is out of his time, but he will be finishing his sentences. Would she | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
agree that the matter of a separate Scottish six O'Clock News isn't | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
ideal the responsibility of the BBC and the right to continue? I suspect | :22:15. | :22:23. | |
there is significant personal feeling amongst his comments above | :22:24. | :22:33. | |
pay. I will not comment further. On the subject of the role of the chair | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
of the new BBC board, this is an entirely new role. This is not a | :22:40. | :22:49. | |
continuation of the BBC trust. I want to pay tribute to Rona | :22:50. | :22:57. | |
Fairhead, but it needed to be open to a full recruitment process to | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
make sure we get the right person for the job. I accept that she has | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
decided to not put herself forward for the role. If I can return to the | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
point about regional broadcasting and BBC Alba, he will appreciate | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
that it is part of the BBC, whereas S4 see is a separate independent | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
business, which is why there may appear to be a difference in terms | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
of treatment. -- S4C. It is to reflect that BBC Alba is a | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
wholly-owned part of the BBC. We have beefed up considerably the role | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
in the charter. Finally, on the point about the Scottish six, the | :23:42. | :23:49. | |
BBC is the nation's broadcaster, and I expect the BBC to reflect the | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
national mood and national news that is important across the nation. But | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
he is right that it is for the BBC, who have operational independence in | :24:01. | :24:02. | |
this matter, who determine exactly how to make that happen. May I echo | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
the Secretary of State's praise for the Member for Molden, and I would | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
say that the charter has been significantly enhanced by the | :24:14. | :24:22. | |
amendments, particularly on pay. May ask the Secretary of State make sure | :24:23. | :24:31. | |
diversity remains a significant part of the charter? I pay tribute to him | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
for the role he carried out, the longest serving Culture Minister I | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
think we have ever seen. I agree with him on his points on diversity. | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
I can confirm that is the case. Given where we could have ended up, | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
can I welcome this statement today, in particular the government's | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
backing down of the composition of the board. But given that Rona | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
Fairhead was appointed to effectively abolish her own | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
organisation and has done so, and to oversee as huge transfer to a | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
unitary board, hasn't her treatment been a little rough? I do not accept | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
this is a backbone on the board. This is about looking up what is | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
appropriate -- and appropriate balanced board, which will make the | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
most effective way to deliver on its charter requirements. I do not think | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
it is the case with Miss Fairhead, this is no reflection on his or her | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
ability to do the role, but this is merely a brand-new role. I welcome | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
the decision to accept the recommendation of the select | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
committee that there should be an open and fair process for the | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
appointment of the chair of the board. When do she hope that | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
appointment will be made, and when the new unitary board will assume | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
its new responsibilities? My honorary friend -- honourable friend | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
has done sterling work, and influence the work we have done over | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
the summer on the charter. As I said in my statement, I expect the new | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
board to be in place and all the regulatory issues working by the 3rd | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
of April next year, but I would expect the new chair of the board to | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
be appointed before then. Does the Secretary of State acknowledge that | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
a lot of us do not share the sentimentality often expressed about | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
the BBC, especially when they have been at the brunt of its bias over | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
several years? In terms of its transparency, could the Secretary of | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
State outline why has this been limited to the publication of | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
expenses or salaries over ?150,000? Why can it not be brought in line | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
with members of Parliament expenses, in terms of ?75,000 and all other | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
expenses including travel and accommodation? I know he has | :26:54. | :27:08. | |
long-term issues, would be the best way of putting it, but there are | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
many programmes he enjoys, I am sure, and it is something we should | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
cherish and really want to protect. This is Britain at its best when it | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
is at its best. The Rio Olympics being a prime example of when the | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
whole of Britain came together. Regarding transparency on pay, it is | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
in line with civil servants on transparency, but at the moment the | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
first disclosures will be on bigger bands than we have. Wide does it | :27:40. | :27:47. | |
need the criminal law in place to encourage people to pay for it? In | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
terms of transparency, does she agree with me that if the BBC wants | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
to take public money, it should be transparent, and if it doesn't want | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
to be then it should not take public money? | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
We carried out the review looking at decriminalisation and it found there | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
was a need for a criminal sanction on the system but this is one of | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
those issues which will continue to be luck at, and of course the BBC | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
needs to be transparent to show it is reducing value for money. Can I | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
thank the Secretary of State about the importance of the BBC, any | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
organisation which can turn Ed Balls into Fred Astaire is remarkable. | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
Canty emphasise the charter does not undermine effectivity of BBC | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
Scotland's news programming and underline how important it is for | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
audiences to programming and not politicians? I agree, this is for | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
the BBC and the viewing public to make that determination. They will | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
watch the programmes they want to watch and the BBC can take editorial | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
decisions around it. I'm not sure the right honourable member is keen | :28:58. | :29:09. | |
she's married to Fred Astaire. Just for clarity, I would like to ask the | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
Secretary of State wider is no provision in the statement that | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
Scotland's own Six O'Clock News. That is a matter of editorial | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
independence of the BBC and for them to make that decision. Wendy for the | :29:25. | :29:34. | |
education and culture committee of the Scotland -- when the, decisions | :29:35. | :29:42. | |
would rest of London executives. Does this new Charter satisfy the | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
desire by people in Scotland with greater autonomy over decisions lies | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
where it should for commissioners in Scotland? She will have seen the | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
letter from the director-general setting out his view of how the BBC | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
ensures that happens. As an independent BBC, it is for them to | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
make sure that happens. Can I welcome my right honourable friend's | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
statement, in relation to the involvement of the National Audit | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
Office? And the value for money assessments they will be able to | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
make. Does she agree that this should deliver confidence, | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
transparency, accountability and financial rigour? I do. We've seen | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
the BBC unable increasingly to afford sports events, the great | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
British bake off an order, pressures on the BBC services. Isn't it a case | :30:36. | :30:44. | |
this government keeps undermining? They have do fund the World Service, | :30:45. | :30:56. | |
local TV and ?600 million. I totally disagree, I will quote the | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
director-general who said far from being a cut, the way this financial | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
settlement is shaved gives us effectively flat licence fee income | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
across the first five years of the next Charter. Will she make sure no | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
decisions are taken about the monitoring service before important | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
select committee enquiries are held next month? Can I say, I did not | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
share this unhealthy obsession with what other people earn. I was told | :31:24. | :31:31. | |
it was rude to ask. I will write to my right on boyfriend on that | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
answer. -- right honourable friend. In her statement she talked about | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
the nations, but in terms of the regions, can she say in the charter | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
will impact on regional news programmes and regional local radio, | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
such as BBC Humberside? The decisions about news programming our | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
editorial matters for the BBC and they have independence, as set out | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
in the charter. I strongly agree with her we need to see strong | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
regional programming across the whole of the UK and that is what is | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
clear on this charter. Following on from the honourable lady's question, | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
the Secretary of State will be aware that English regions feel their | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
voice is not heard loud enough. She refers specifically to Scotland, | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland. What representation will there be for the | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
English regions? I can assure there will be an English board member, a | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
public appointment, and I will do everything I can to make sure that | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
board member represents the regions of England. In his latest report, | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
the audience Council of Wales of the corporation needs to be more | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
accountable to Welsh audiences. How will this be achieved and can she | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
commit a Wales member will sit permanently on the board of Ofcom | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
now it has assumed the role of external regulator? He is confusing | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
the new unitary border with Ofcom, they are separate bodies, the Ofcom | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
is a regulator, the new unitary board will have governance over the | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
BBC. The Secretary of State will be aware the epic battle in the last | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
Parliament between the Public Accounts Committee and the BBC over | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
the issue of redundancy payments were senior managers. Part was the | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
discrepancy between legal resources, and so on that basis while I welcome | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
the involvement of the National Audit Office, will she'd ensure they | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
have the appropriate resources and power to hold the BBC to account? | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
Yes, I can give him that assurance and I can tell him we're putting a | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
cap on payments on redundancy of ?95,000. Can the Minister tell us | :33:52. | :33:59. | |
what limit the is on the commissioning programmes? It was | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
100% commissioning, you could have privatisation by the back door. | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
Clearly the BBC needs to produce original content. But the way they | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
do that, by commissioning through independent production companies, | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
means we get a thriving independent production sector that then consult | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
the rest of the world. I encourage them to do all this and make sure we | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
have those creative clusters. If we look at Manchester, for example, an | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
amazing amount of activity and new businesses as a result of BBC being | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
in Manchester commissioning programmes. Does this Secretary of | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
State share my hope and that expressed by Clare balding that when | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
talent salaries revealed it does not reveal a gender pay gap? I think he | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
makes it very good point. I'm glad to see some progress on this issue | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
as I have a staff raised in Glasgow -- 850 staff based in Glasgow. | :35:07. | :35:14. | |
Will she be clear, and will she meets the request from BBC Alba to | :35:15. | :35:25. | |
increase in-house programme contribution to BBC Alba, to match | :35:26. | :35:33. | |
that ten hours a week? As I said in response to her honourable friend, | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
BBC Alba is a subsidiary of the BBC, where is S foresee is not. I agree | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
there are some fantastic broadcasters from Glasgow and we do | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
want to make sure BBC Alba and others have the resources they need. | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
The village and the league of gentlemen were both made my | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
constituency, those programmes bring great economic benefit because | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
people come here. In the draft charter, is there something to | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
encourage the production of programmes outside London in all our | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
consistency so we all get the benefit of the BBC? I have to | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
declare an interest because I have cousins who live in Hadfield, | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
otherwise known as Royston Vaizey. I'm keen to make sure there are | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
other visitors there. ... Free TV licences but if it | :36:26. | :36:42. | |
satisfies. I was told the Scottish figure is 49 million, a lot of many. | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
Can the government to respond to the criticism that transferring across | :36:50. | :36:51. | |
from government to the BBC will have a detrimental affect on high-quality | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
programming? I simply don't agree with that point, I do not agree that | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
this is going to impact on programming when the BBC have the | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
guaranteed licence fee rising in line with inflation over the | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
five-year period. Can I welcome the statement from the Secretary of | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
State? Can she give me assurances the excellent training and develop | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
meant and apprenticeship programmes of the BBC run will not be affected | :37:20. | :37:21. | |
by this charter review? Could the Secretary of State tell | :37:22. | :37:31. | |
the House how these measures will deal with the widely accepted view, | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
and it may be shared by the honourable member who speaks for the | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
opposition, that the BBC is institutionally biased in favour of | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
the European Union? My honourable friend will be pleased to know Ofcom | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
is the regulator and the new proposals and that the NAL will be | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
looking at the value for money for the taxpayer and all of that will | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
help to make sure BBC bias is addressed. Can my right honourable | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
friend confirmed that under the Charter, the BBC will continue | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
properly to invest in excellent local radio such as the station her | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
constituents and I share? I don't know how he held back from | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
mentioning BBC Radio Stoke by name. I know there will not give me an | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
easy time and I don't give that assurance. -- if I don't give that | :38:24. | :38:32. | |
assurance. He wasn't looking to intervene on this, but on the next. | :38:33. | :38:41. | |
I'm grateful. Statement, the Secretary of State for business, | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
energy and industrial strategy. Doctor Greg Clark. | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
I would like to make a statement on the Hinkley point CE nuclear power | :38:53. | :39:05. | |
plant. In July, following a statement, regarding the ?18 billion | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
project to build a new project in Somerset, I would ask the government | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
to consider all points of the contract and we would make a | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
decision by the early autumn. I can announce that the government has | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
decided to proceed with the first new nuclear power station for a | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
generation. But this is made with two important changes. On the | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
project itself, the government will now be able to prevent the sale of | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
EDF's controlling stake before the completion of construction. This | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
will be confirmed in an exchange of letters between the government and | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
EDF. Existing legal powers and the new legal framework will mean the | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
government is able to intervene in the sale of EDF steak once it is | :39:50. | :39:57. | |
operational. Further more and more importantly, we reformed the legal | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
framework for foreign investments in British critical infrastructure. | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
These reforms will have three elements. Firstly, after Hinkley the | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
British Government will take a special share in all future nuclear | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
new-build projects. This will ensure that significant stakes cannot be | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
sold without the government's knowledge or consent. Secondly, the | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
office for nuclear regulation will be directed to require notice from | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
developers or operators of nuclear sites of any change of ownership or | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
part ownership. This will allow the government to advise or direct the | :40:33. | :40:43. | |
ONL to take action. The government will reform its ownership and | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
control of infrastructure to ensure the implications of foreign | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
ownership are scrutinised for the purposes of national scrutiny. This | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
will include a review of the public interest regime and the introduction | :40:57. | :41:10. | |
of a ... The changes will bring Britain's policy framework for the | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
ownership and control of the infrastructure into line with other | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
major economies, allowing the UK Government to take a favour and | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
consistent approach to the National security implications of critical | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
infrastructure including nuclear energy in the future. These changes | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
mean that while the UK will remain one of the most open economies in | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
the world, the public can be confident that foreign direct | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
investment works always in the country's best interests. This ?18 | :41:36. | :41:42. | |
billion investment in Britain provides an upgrade in our supply of | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
clean energy. When it begins producing electricity in the middle | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
of the next decade it will provide 7% of the UK's electricity needs, | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
giving secure energy to 6 million homes for 60 years. Furthermore it | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
must be stressed that the contracts negotiated places all the | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
construction risk on investors alone. Consumers will not pay a | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
penny unless and until the plant generates electricity. The new site | :42:10. | :42:21. | |
contains important elements of insurance in construction and future | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
high gas prices, which have historically been volatile. It | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
compares broadly with other clean energy, with additional costs of | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
intermittency, or gas capture and storage, for example. Hinkley | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
unleashes a long overdue wave of investment in nuclear engineering in | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
the UK, creating 26,000 jobs and apprenticeships, providing a huge | :42:51. | :42:52. | |
boost to the economy not only in the South West Burton of the part of the | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
country, through the supply chain of firms big and small that will | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
benefit from the investment. EDF have also confirmed that UK | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
businesses are set to secure 64% of the value of the investment being | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
made, the biggest single capital projects in the UK today. As the | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
first of a wave of new nuclear plants, we expect the experience of | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
rebooting the nuclear industry to mean that the cost should reduce for | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
future nuclear power stations, of which another five are proposed. In | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
any consideration of nuclear power, safety will always be the number one | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
consideration. The construction Hinkley point C will be under close | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
year of the office of nuclear regulation, which has the power | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
necessary to halt construction or require amendments to any part of | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
the plant if it is not completely satisfied with the safety of any | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
part of the reactor and its associated construction. Unlike in | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
the past, the long-term decommissioning costs will be... Any | :44:02. | :44:14. | |
investment that provide significant electricity supplies for the next | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
two generations of British people and businesses requires deserve | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
serious consideration. It was right that the new government should have | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
taken the time to consider all components of the project, and now | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
having reviewed the project, the government is satisfied that the | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
improved deal and the other changes announced will, for the first time, | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
remedy the weaknesses of the previous regime of foreign ownership | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
for critical infrastructure. Is important that the right balance for | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
welcoming foreign investment and ensuring it serves the national | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
interest is made, which these changes would achieve. The | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
investment will secure 7% of the UK's electricity needs for 60 years. | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
Helping replace existing nuclear capacity which is due to be | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
decommissioned in the decade ahead. The electricity generated would be | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
reliable and low carbon, so completely reliable with climate | :45:11. | :45:12. | |
change obligations. And Hinkley point C will inaugurate a new era of | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
UK nuclear power with UK-based businesses benefiting from almost | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
two thirds of the ?18 billion value of the project, with 26,000 jobs and | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
apprenticeships created. It is now right that we support this major | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
upgrade, the first of many, to the infrastructure of which our future | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
depends. I commend the statement to the House. I thank the Secretary of | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
State for the 13 minutes advance notice of his statement. First let | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
me be clear, this is an important project that must now go forward | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
without any further interruption or delay. The Secretary of State is | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
aware that by intervening on the 28th of July after EDF's final | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
investment decision, the government Peter Greste 25,000 well-paid jobs, | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
well-qualified jobs. He knows that it not only list the investment into | :46:07. | :46:14. | |
UK jobs and infrastructure, but dropped confidence on investors, who | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
now believe that the Prime Minister does not understand the significance | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
that companies attach to the taking of the final investment decision. -- | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
the government put at risk 25,000 well-paid jobs. The delay has only | :46:29. | :46:41. | |
unsettled investors further. Did the Prime Minister attempt in any way to | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
isolate the building of a reactor from the deal at Hinkley Point see. | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
What was the Chinese response? Every member of the House will agree that | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
government has primary responsibility to safeguard national | :46:58. | :46:59. | |
security, but neither the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister have | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
never been clearer about what they consider to be the security risks | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
associated with the current deal, so will he said he is out now, so that | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
the House and public can take a decision as to whether the | :47:14. | :47:15. | |
modifications he is proposing adequately reflect the risks he | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
believe exist. Can he set out whether the government were happy | :47:22. | :47:30. | |
with what he set out regarding the nuclear reactor, and if so was he | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
aware that two such reactors are already under construction in China? | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
Were they concerned about the potential of a cyber attack, and had | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
he not consider that given the importance to the Chinese of having | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
Bradwell advocate well standard to market their reactor technology | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
around the world, such an attack would undermine the very reason why | :47:50. | :47:52. | |
the Chinese wanted to be involved in the project in the first place. The | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
Secretary of State wishes to dodge these questions, if he does by | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
pleading he does not wish to discuss security matters, then I would ask | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
how he can assure the House and the public that the efficacy of the | :48:06. | :48:07. | |
amendments he is proposing are sufficient to meet the risks and | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
challenges that justified a near fatal delay of the project? We must | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
address this whole argument that the government has actually presented as | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
well as those they have not. They have claimed they have introduced | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
significant new safeguards into this package, in particular that they | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
will be able to require notification from owners are operators of nuclear | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
sites of any change of ownership or part ownership. But the Secretary of | :48:35. | :48:43. | |
State already has such powers. Will he acknowledge that he can currently | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
prevent the sale of any infrastructure, and can he explain | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
why he believes the proposed new powers adds significantly to the | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
public interest regulations in the enterprise act 2002, or are they | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
merely windowdressing to make it appear that the government's | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
intervention has achieved something, no matter how much appearances may | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
indicate to the contrary? Is he aware of the House of Commons | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
briefing paper entitled mergers in the public interest, which measures | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
that energy security is already covered by national security and the | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
government already has the powers to prevent such a sale? Is he aware | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
that in the House of Lords during the passage of the energy act, my | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
noble friend introduced an amendment specifically to introduce energy | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
security as a new public interest term. Government lawyers then | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
advised, in cases where a a merger opposed a genuine and serious threat | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
to societal needs, such as energy supply, this would be covered by the | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
existing provisions in the 2002 regarding national security? | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
Investors would be empowered to directly intervene. The government | :49:56. | :50:02. | |
created a commercial crisis, sending shock waves through the industry and | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
unions, they list a the dramatic dispute with one of our key future | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
trading partners, and in the end all they have done is pretend to give | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
themselves powers which they already possessed. This statement is | :50:15. | :50:20. | |
windowdressing. It is face-saving by a government that topped a big and | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
backed down with a whimper. The Secretary of State should explain | :50:27. | :50:34. | |
whether he has the new technology, particularly bad storage technology | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
and energy efficiency measures, to manage the electricity supply to | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
reduce a need for baseload supply. I think he has concluded, has he not? | :50:44. | :50:52. | |
His time is up. The honourable gentleman raised a number of points, | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
a large number of points, and I will address them. I hope we share the | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
view that a confident long-term energy policy is vital to ensuring | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
that people have access to securing energy that is affordable and clean, | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
and we should be a world leader in these industries, but I hope he will | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
not think it churlish of me to point out that it was the complete absence | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
of a long-term energy policy during the 13 years in which Labour were in | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
government in which our nuclear fleet was known to be coming to the | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
end of its life and no decision was taken to replace them. It has fallen | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
to this government to make the long term decisions for the security of | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
this country. And instead of the approach of making like the ostrich | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
and hoping the problem will go away, this government is looking to the | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
future, providing the upgrade to the energy security we need. In terms of | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
his position today, I'm afraid I am as confused by it as ever. His | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
position is no more credible. He seemed to be criticising the Prime | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
Minister and the government for taking the serious decision to | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
review the components of a very important deal, that seems to be the | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
input of his intervention. He said that this has damaged confidence, | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
but when the announcement was made on the 29th of July, the honourable | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
gentleman told the BBC, I am hoping that what the government will do is | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
to take two to three months to seriously review it. So much for the | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
suggestion that we should not have had this review in the first place. | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
Mind you, I am not sure what the purpose of this two or three months | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
would be because the very same day, as I have it, he said that he had | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
already made up his mind, he said that he would not scrap the | :52:54. | :53:02. | |
proposal, because he welcomes the jobs and electricity this will | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
produce for the nation. Saw this honourable member was urging the | :53:06. | :53:14. | |
public to take -- government to take longer to discuss. The approach this | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
government has taken I think is marked. The point he raises, in | :53:19. | :53:27. | |
terms of the powers under the enterprise act, they are subject to | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
thresholds, takeover threshold, and we're making sure any change in | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
ownership or control of whatever size will be covered if a national | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
security test, which is sensible. On the point of Hinkley Point, it was | :53:42. | :53:52. | |
the case until we had propose these changes to the contract, that EDF | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
was at liberty to sell its majority stake in this very important | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
investment without even needing to have the permission of the UK | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
Government, so it seems to me no more than sensible and prudent to | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
have agreed with EDF that they should be the consent the British | :54:13. | :54:14. | |
Government required. I am surprised the honourable | :54:15. | :54:22. | |
gentleman, who I would have thought would take a prudent view of matters | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
of national security, seems to suggest, it is not clear what he is | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
suggesting, that we not make these changes when we come to debate these | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
things in future, he will set out whether he opposes the measures | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
taken to safeguard and entrench the same kind of regime for national | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
security that we have in this country that other advanced | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
economies enjoyed. In terms of future investments, I was clear in | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
my statement, this is the first of what we hoped would be a series of | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
nuclear investments, it is important we replace the 20% of power | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
generated by nuclear power with another contribution to a diverse | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
energy mix and in so doing we are creating new jobs, new | :55:09. | :55:10. | |
opportunities, major advances for the UK economy. I welcome proposals | :55:11. | :55:18. | |
to make it more difficult for foreign interest, specialised | :55:19. | :55:28. | |
nationalised interest, to buy our future power. Would it be more | :55:29. | :55:36. | |
prudent for Treasury investors rather than foreign investors who | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
will now be able to take enormous sums out of our country with 25 | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
years or more while this project is up and running which is a cost on | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
the balance of payments that we don't really want. I welcome | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
overseas investment of ?18 billion into the UK economy. I hope we | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
develop our nuclear programme and the skills and supply chain prosper | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
so that there will be British companies that will invest in the | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
various parts of the supply chain of new nuclear power, we expect that to | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
happen, 64% of the value going to UK companies. But I think it is an | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
important part of the deal that the consumer and the tax payer will not | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
pay a penny for the construction costs unless and until its generate | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
electricity. Knowing the record that there has been of cost overruns and | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
delays to new nuclear power stations, I think it is prudent that | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
the risk is held by the investors rather than by the taxpayer in this | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
case. I thank the Secretary of State for the advanced copy of the | :56:50. | :56:52. | |
statement and the energy Minister for the courtesy call this morning | :56:53. | :56:55. | |
to explain the Government's decision and I welcome the fact that we are | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
having this statement before the recess to allow the opportunity for | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
questions. I think it is unfortunate that the Government has decided to | :57:03. | :57:08. | |
take the gamble with Hinckley. There right improvements that the | :57:09. | :57:10. | |
Secretary of State has outlined but the deal still remains a rotten one. | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
The ?30 billion that it will cost the bill payer, he may say | :57:17. | :57:28. | |
that the risk is with EDF and the construction companies, but, as | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
Berkeley outlined, 25% over budget and four years late and it will | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
still make a profit. That will be at the expense of the bill payer. If we | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
do not pay a penny until it is blocked, or if it is built late, | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
what fills the gap? Coal is due to come off the system by 2025 when | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
this is meant to come on, if that gap is five years, what will fill it | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
and at what cost? I think the cost of this project, probably the single | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
most expensive object in history, is too much. But what concerns me is | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
the opportunity cost that we have here, because we cannot spend the | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
money twice, we cannot have the engineers working on things twice | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
and we cannot produce the electricity to be consumed twice and | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
we could spend this money better, we could use our expertise better and | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
use it to develop an industrial strategy which this Government has | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
said is part of its new strategy. But that industrial strategy will | :58:26. | :58:27. | |
mean foreign ownership, foreign investment and foreign profit, and | :58:28. | :58:53. | |
instead we could be developing home-grown industries that would see | :58:54. | :58:55. | |
our country flourish, investing in clean carbon capture, investing in | :58:56. | :58:57. | |
offshore wind, investing in storage, investing in solar. These things | :58:58. | :58:59. | |
would all be better spent. Can I ask the Minister to invest in the energy | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
of the future, not the energy of the past? I am grateful for the | :59:03. | :59:05. | |
courteous words. He talks about investing in future energy sources | :59:06. | :59:07. | |
rather than the past. I gently point out to him that, given the SNP's | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
record of energy forecasts in recent months, that perhaps they might keep | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
their crystal balls to themselves, if I can put it that way. In terms | :59:15. | :59:20. | |
of understanding the injunction that the honourable gentleman Gibbs to | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
investors, it is very important, and he will know that Scotland has a | :59:27. | :59:31. | |
high proportion of renewable investment, but I am confused by his | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
party's position on this because the SNP, as I understand it, has stood | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
on a platform of nuclear free Scotland but it seems to be with | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
their fingers crossed behind their back because they are happy to rely | :59:45. | :59:51. | |
on the two nuclear power stations functioning in Scotland that are | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
producing low carbon electricity. His former leader of the party road | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
to EDF to say that he was happy to extend the life of the two power | :59:59. | :00:05. | |
plants well into the 2020s. He wants to condemn his cake and eat it and | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
then have another slice, it seems to me. In terms of the point that he | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
made about overseas investment, we want to attract overseas investment | :00:14. | :00:20. | |
as a vote of confidence in this country that investors are working | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
with us to have this major upgrade of our infrastructure, we welcome | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
that across different sectors. He is wrong is that this is at the expense | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
of opportunities that we have in this country, because one of the | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
features of this deal is it does not burden the public balance sheet, we | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
have been wise to make sure that the UK balance sheet remains able to | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
support other investments. With your indulgence, could I thank the | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
Secretary of State and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
for making exactly the right decision and how important it is for | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
the West Somerset constituency. I invite the Secretary of State to | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
come down as soon as he can to visit the Hinkley Point the power station | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
and said that could he look with some urgency at the nuclear college | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
that we need to build with some urgency but also further to my | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
letter which I sent him from the LEP that we need the last bit of the | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
funding to make sure that the infrastructure to deal with this in | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
the local area is up to scratch so that we can deliver this power plant | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
on time, on budget for the benefit of the United Kingdom. Can I return | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
the complement and thank my honourable friend for his | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
level-headedness and patience while this review has been conducted? It | :01:44. | :01:54. | |
is an extremely important investment for his area, I am looking forward | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
greatly to coming with him to visit Hinckley, and he is right that | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
investments such as the college that will provide the skills that are | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
going to charge ahead the whole of the south-west and indeed the rest | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
of the country, the supply chain extends to all part of the United | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
Kingdom, and my honourable friend. The coaster will also be a | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
beneficiary in this. It requires an upgrade in terms of local | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
infrastructure and I will respond to the LEP on that. I had a positive | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
conversation with the Somerset Chamber of Commerce earlier this | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
week, who were very clear that the benefits of what was then the | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
proposal would be considerable, game changing, for some. He will be aware | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
that Britain's two most respected economy and finance publications, | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
the financial Times and the Economist, have come out strongly | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
against Hinkley C on value for money and energy grounds, with the | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
Economist describing it last month as a white elephant before it is | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
even built. Can he confirmed that nothing he has announced today is an | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
improvement on the dreadful deal negotiated by the former Chancellor | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
on guaranteed price, absolutely dreadful. I don't agree with the | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
honourable gentleman, I think it is a good deal, it secures 70% of our | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
energy into the future, and it is incumbent on him and his Honourable | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
Friends to say that, given the 20% of nuclear capacity will be | :03:24. | :03:25. | |
decommissioned over the next ten years, how will they replace it if | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
they are not forward-looking and making positive decisions such as we | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
have made? I welcome the statement which is good news for the energy | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
sector and my constituents in Bradwell on Sea. Can I assure him | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
that my constituents welcome the prospect of Chinese investment in | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
the Maldon district where there has been a long history of nuclear power | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
generation and does he agree that any future power station will be | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
regulated by the UK inspectorate, staffed by British employees, and | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
that the security evaluation centre which has technology supplied by | :04:01. | :04:09. | |
Huawei set a good precedent for any security concerns? He is absolutely | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
right and it seems to me important that we welcome overseas investment | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
but that we should have a regime and set of powers that other advanced | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
economies benefit from, that is something that I think countries | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
would expect to have and that is what we will have as a result of | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
these changes. Having pressed the pause button, why is the Secretary | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
of State now pressing the fast forward button? Doesn't he recognise | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
that the project does not represent value for money as the FT have | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
pointed out? Does he accept the cost to consumers has gone from six to 30 | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
billion and that is now his Government are willing to put in | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
public subsidy is something that they said under coalition would not | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
happen, and this happening at a time when the cost of renewables is | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
plummeting? Mr Speaker, I have said the construction cost is entirely | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
financed by the private investors in this site, and again I think it is | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
important that we do have a long-term consistent approach to | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
energy policy, and I think insofar as this can be cross-party, that is | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
beneficial. It is especially ironic that two Liberal Democrat Energy | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
Secretary were closely involved in the negotiation of this deal, we | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
have a different view already. Could my right honourable friend confirm | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
that at the end of its life this new power plant well have generated the | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
most expensive energy in the history of energy generation, and can he | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
tell us whether he agrees with the National audit office that in its | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
lifetime consumers will have ended up subsidising EDF to the tune of | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
?30 billion, and can he tell us what will happen to the mountains of | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
nuclear waste the plant will generate? What I would say is that | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
the securing for 60 years of a reliable source of energy is a good | :06:03. | :06:10. | |
investment in the future of stability for our energy supplies, | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
and that is worth having. It is impossible to know what the | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
alternatives would be during that time but we have seen a volatile | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
energy prices. So Winston Churchill's principles on energy | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
security was that diversity and diversity alone was the key. I think | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
that is the right approach. When it comes to decommissioning, as I said | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
in my earlier answer, this is provided for explicitly in the | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
contract. EDF said that this will mean 1500 jobs at offices in Bristol | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
as well as those associated with the plant, I am going down to Hinckley | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
on Monday to discuss that, but these are incredibly | :06:51. | :07:31. | |
expensive jobs given what we have heard about the deal. Does the | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
Minister really think this is value for money and would it not be better | :07:36. | :07:37. | |
spent investing in the renewable sector which would also mean jobs in | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
the south-west? I do and I am confused as to the demeanour of the | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
party opposite to it seemed in the rather confusing reply of the shadow | :07:44. | :07:45. | |
Minister to be welcoming the project going ahead. Certainly the trade | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
unions in the south-west and across the country, which I would imagine | :07:49. | :07:50. | |
the honourable lady has been speaking to, are very positive. The | :07:51. | :07:52. | |
National Secretary for energy for the GMB said giving the thumbs up to | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
Hinckley is vital to fill the great hole in the UK's energy supply of | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
the TUC has welcomed this. When she goes back to her constituency this | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
weekend she might talk to some of the union to some of the unions who | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
are delighted on behalf of Frances O'Grady of the TUC has welcomed | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
this. When she goes back to her constituency this weekend she might | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
talk to some of the unions who are delighted on behalf of their can I | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
welcome this announcement that it brings ?465 million of contracts to | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
south-west businesses and a 4 billion boost to the south-west | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
fleet of nuclear power stations from the 1960s and 70s that will close | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
over the next ten years and these decisions are not a bad either all, | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
we need both. That is why long-term planning is essential. We have would | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
the Minister agree that we have to look at these decisions in context | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
and the fact that we have a fleet of nuclear power stations from the | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
1960s and 70s that will close over the next ten years and these | :08:30. | :08:31. | |
decisions are not about either all, we need both. That is why long-term | :08:32. | :08:33. | |
planning is essential. EDF my constituency has an acute | :08:34. | :08:46. | |
power station which will hopefully be built in the future which is | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
important for economic development, can he assure me that the future | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
renewable programme will not be beset by delay after delay after | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
delay? One of the reasons we are so keen to inaugurate this new | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
programme nuclear engineering in this country is to be able to | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
replace the nuclear power stations that are being decommissioned. To | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
build inconsistencies like hers on the skills that can make a valuable | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
contribution to local life and the National economy. I welcome the | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
building of the new fleet of nuclear power stations, the opportunity | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
provides for British manufacturing, will my right honourable friend do | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
what he can to ensure that in these deals, we will have the best of | :09:34. | :09:34. | |
British? 64% of the value by content will be | :09:35. | :09:53. | |
spent with UK companies which shows the tangible benefits to the whole | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
economy of this programme. The minister said that the Hinkley | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
decision wouldn't burden the national balance sheet. Would he | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
clarify the status of the offer made by the previous Chancellor of the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
Exchequer to give EDF a Treasury guarantee of ?2 billion to | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
supplement the company's liquidity. An offer that puts the taxpayer at | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
risk? I am delighted to answer that question. EDF have confirmed to me | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
they will not be taking up that ?2 billion guarantee so that the | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
taxpayer is fully in selected from the costs of construction. I welcome | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
his statement today and will he confirm that he will continue to | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
work with businesses to make sure we build on this nuclear partnership to | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
attract future investment in the UK? I will indeed. We do want to have | :10:47. | :10:54. | |
good investment opportunities for countries around the world and | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
China, across the United Kingdom, has been viable source of investment | :11:00. | :11:07. | |
and it is important we build on it. In light of the announcement today, | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
is the Secretary of State now admitting that when the government | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
entered into the original contract, they failed to protect national | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
security and critical infrastructure? What I would say to | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
the honourable lady, despite the injunction of her colleague on the | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
front bench is that taking the opportunity to seriously review | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
before signatures were given, has allowed us to improve the security | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
of the arrangements. That seems to be a good thing that I hope she will | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
welcome. The Secretary of State is right to point out that nuclear | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
energy provides a valuable part of UK's energy security but that is | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
only provided we have the fuel to put in them. The fuel for the UK | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
reactors are made in my constituency, Candy Secretary of | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
State assure me that efforts will be made to ensure that nuclear fuel | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
reactors from the UK will be made from UK fuel? I will visit his | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
constituency to see myself the production. I very much welcome the | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
review but I have to say I am astonished that the review of the | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
strike price was not part of that, which will rise to ?120 megawatt per | :12:21. | :12:30. | |
hour rising with inflation. Can I ask if a serious examination of the | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
cost for Bill payers was part of the review? Of course, Mr Speaker, we | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
looked at every component part. For a new nuclear power station, the | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
first for a generation in this country come to have it constructed | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
at no risk to the taxpayer or the bill payer is a considerable | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
achievement. It represents good value. This is good news for my | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
constituency as it means we will have a third nuclear power station | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
built, good news travels fast. I have at the local radio station | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
desperate to get an interview and to congratulate the Secretary of State | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
on the hard work he has done for my constituency. Could we meet together | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
shortly to have a meeting to speed up the five proposed reactions -- | :13:18. | :13:25. | |
reactors in the future? I would be very happy to meet my honourable | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
friend and I considered the invitation accept it. Mr Speaker, we | :13:29. | :13:37. | |
have an excellent Secretary of State and he has made a very full | :13:38. | :13:45. | |
statement. But, he gave details to the opposition spokesman and the SNP | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
statement but he also gave it in advance to the BBC. I read all of | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
this on the BBC website. That is not how this house works. It may be that | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
spin doctors are still prevalent in departments, that has got to stop. | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
The house has to be informed first. And would-be secretary agreed that | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
that is the convention of this house? I understand the point he | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
makes. I hope he will concede that I have come to the house at the | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
earliest opportunity. Decisions like this have consequences for financial | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
markets. It is the norm at the opening of the markets to disclose. | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
He can be absolutely assured and I am sure he will accept this, that my | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
sense of the possibility to this house is very clear in my mind. But | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
we need to have an orderly conduct of business when it comes to | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
important implications to the financial markets. Mr Speaker, I | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
welcome the announcement on golden shares and I very much support what | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
my right honourable friend the Wokingham said about the future for | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
British investment, perhaps through a UK investment bank and UK pension | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
funds. Can he confirm to me where the currency risk, but Italy on the | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
subsidy payments in the future and out of the CFTs will arise? The | :15:07. | :15:14. | |
contract is expressed in pounds. The construction risk is entirely with | :15:15. | :15:23. | |
the investors. I welcome the long-term investment in low carbon | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
energy and the 25,000 jobs this will create. Can the Secretary of State | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
confirm EDF's admit to local jobs and small and medium-sized | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
businesses in the supply chain such as James Fisher nuclear in my | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
constituency? I am sure that particular firm will attest to that. | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
The Somerset Chamber of Commerce one very clear that orders had already | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
been placed during the period of preparation of the site and it has | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
been beneficial to that county. Thank you Mr Speaker, this is | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
obviously a massive infrastructure project and I welcome what he says | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
about the opportunities for the UK supply chains and I hope that will | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
extend to the steel industry and I would strongly urge the Secretary of | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
State to get out and make the case that order of the steel used in this | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
project should be British. Can I put in a particular plug for Corby. | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
Which are of excellent quality I know. The commitment EDF have given | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
me that 64% by value of the work will be with UK firms will be of | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
particular benefit to firms such as the one he mentions and the supply | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
chain across the country. I am grateful to be Secretary of State, | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
point of order, Mr Andrew Small. In the last ten minutes, a consultation | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
document has been published, I am grateful that it has been got for | :16:56. | :17:04. | |
me. Camberwell mitigates court, there is no statement or other | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
notice in relation to the closure. These things are often published | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
late in the day, this is the court that serves 600,000 people in London | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
and earlier in June this year was told we needed the extra capacity | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
there. Should there not be an opportunity for members to raise | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
these important issues locally in chamber by the time the house sits | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
again, the consultation period will be more than half over. Should it | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
not deal with members on a more courteous basis? Won the short | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
answer is yes. It would be courteous if an announcement of this kind | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
would have been made at an earlier point and not very shortly before | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
the house ceases to sit with minimal opportunity for the honourable | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
gentleman in Parliament returns to explore the matter. What I would | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
suggest to him is that he used the remaining time he has today to look | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
at options for asking parliamentary questions or to schedule a debate on | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
this important matter. He would have every prospect of securing a debate. | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
Although it would be at a later point than he would wish, I guess it | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
would be better than nothing. But I think ministers will take account of | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
what he says. This can be a concern felt by members on both sides of the | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
house. And it isn't clever, I think this is my point, it is not clever | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
when ministers behave in this way. If it is done without malice or | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
forethought then it is simply thoughtless. If it is done on the | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
basis of knowing that it will disadvantage or inconvenience a | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
member it is rank inconsiderate and disrespectful. Merely to the member | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
at at least as importantly, to his constituents. Point of order. Mr | :18:50. | :18:57. | |
Speaker, you will be aware this house has increasingly discussed the | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
planned cuts to social housing. In an opposition Day debate, called by | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
myself on the 20th of July, the government pledged to look again at | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
plans to cap local housing allowance and at the 1% housing benefit cut | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
that would also affect supported housing. Today, the government has | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
announced by written statement that they intend to defer the decision on | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
the LH a cap until 2019 but will be going ahead with the cut to | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
supported housing providers from next April. Is it not an affront to | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
this house Mr Speaker and to all members of this house, who have | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
expressed their concerns about these plans, for the Minister not to come | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
to this place with an oral statement, sticking it out yet | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
again, the day before our recess commences? Is it also not an insult | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
to the tens of thousands of vulnerable people, women who have | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
suffered domestic violence, older people, disabled people, former | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
veterans, yet again been plunged into uncertainty and insecurity. Mr | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
Speaker, I seek your guidance on how members on all sides of the house | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
can hold this government and their executive to account and question | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
the Minister on this proposal is in person and in detail? Won I am | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
grateful for the point of order, I can entirely understand the | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
disappointment and irritation about this matter. I hope it will be | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
possible when we return from the conference recess for this matter to | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
be explored on the floor of the house. There are a number of | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
possibilities in that regard. It is a matter of judgment for the | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
government whether a ministerial statement should be made orally or | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
in writing. While I understand her view of this matter, I would just | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
mention that there were two oral statements today as well as business | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
questions. I have no way of knowing what exchanges took place within the | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
government but it is by no means unknown for a minister to want or to | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
be prepared to make an oral statement but to be prevented from | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
doing so because of competing priorities. I have no idea whether | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
that is the case in this instance, I would simply say in response to her | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
request for guidance that she can pursue the matter on the conventions | :21:22. | :21:29. | |
for questions in October, I appreciate this is a considerable | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
time away but it is one possibility. There are other forms of question | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
that can take place in because of the day, as she knows and it is open | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
to the opposition to choose this matter for debate on a future | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
opposition day. If she does find a way to pursue the matter in as far | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
as it is proper and the chair will be her friend in that process and | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
meanwhile, she has at least put her concern and extreme dissatisfaction | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
on the record. Point of order Mr John Healey. Further to that point | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
of order and I am grateful for the remarks he made to the house, were | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
you given any indication that ministers were considering an oral | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
statement on the consequences of their cuts to housing benefits for | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
many thousands of vulnerable people in supported housing. This written | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
statement we have had instead raises more questions than it answers. The | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
policy is delayed but the cuts will go ahead. There is no figure on the | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
new funding pledge but the budget scored the so-called savings at ?990 | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
million. And the new fund the ministers promised is similar to | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
that which has been cut in half the supported peoples fund by more than | :22:37. | :22:45. | |
half since 2010. The announcement was smuggled out in the small print | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
of the Autumn Statement, the announcement today is very in the | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
small print of a long written ministerial statement. What help can | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
you Mr Speaker give the house to make sure that ministers are | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
properly held to account for the assertions in this house? If there | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
has been no opportunity to explore the matter in the chamber, before | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
the recess, and we return in October, there would be an early | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
opportunity at that point. I have already referenced one of those | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
opportunities which has already provided for in the known timetable | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
of oral questions. If it is felt strongly by a member or possibly by | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
a number of members, that the matter warrants a more thorough scrutiny | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
than a couple of questions at monthly questions would allow, I | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
would certainly be open to that possibility. The Right Honourable | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
gentleman asks me if I have had any indication that ministers have been | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
planning to make an oral statement on this matter, and I must answer | :23:54. | :24:01. | |
that, no. I have received no such notification but in fairness, it is | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
not unreasonable for me to observe that absence of evidence does not | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
constitute evidence of absence. We will leave it there for now. I will | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
come, I am saving him up. Point of order Mr Jim Fitzpatrick. | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
We 19% of our electricity generated by nuclear power. If we don't renew | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
it it will fall to 2% by 2030. It is prudent to get on with replacing | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
last week I stated baritones of a Stanley are responsible for the | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
decision not to Morgan Stanley are responsible for the decision provide | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
fixed electrical power cruise ships. I have apologised to Barrett and | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
have written to Morgan Stanley and am grateful for the opportunity to | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
set the record straight. I thank the honourable gentleman, he has set the | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
record straight and has done so with the courtesy for which he is | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
renowned in all parts of the hounds cruise ships. I have apologised to | :24:59. | :25:00. | |
Barrett and have written to Morgan Stanley and am grateful for the | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
opportunity to set the record straight. I thank the honourable | :25:04. | :25:04. | |
gentleman, you set the record straight and has done so with the | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
courtesy for which he is renowned in all parts of the Mr Speaker, you may | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
be aware that in July the person who is now the Secretary for exiting the | :25:12. | :25:13. | |
European on September nine, the Prime Minister would have triggered | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
a large round of global trade deals with our most favourable trade | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
partners. Do you think, bearing in mind there was no statement on the | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
9th of September, that in fact this should be facilitated so that he | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
could come to the House to set out what progress has been made on those | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
trade deals, perhaps lists the countries with whom they have been | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
initiated, and if he could deliver on the timescale he promised which | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
would be completed between the next 12 and 24 months. I am not sure | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
there is any mechanism for securing satisfaction for the honourable | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
gentleman today. It may be that the right honourable gentleman, whom I | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
think he has in mind, the Secretary of State for exiting the European | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
Union, would be enthusiastic beyond words about the possibility of | :26:03. | :26:09. | |
appearing before the House and engaging with and responding to the | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
honourable gentleman but I think the backbench business committee, under | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
whose auspices two debates are about to take place, may take a different | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
view. I know that he is an eager and assiduous member of Parliament. I | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
think it unlikely that he will spend all of the conference recess | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
reflecting on this matter, it would be a bit sad if he were to do so, | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
but if he comes back in October and remains similarly vexed and anxious | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
for clarity, then I hope he will use the mechanisms that are available to | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
him. I think we had better leave it there for now, we have had a | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
considerable feast of points of order today and we move now to the | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
presentation of the bill with the secretary Jeremy Hunt. | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
Health service medical supplies costs Bill, second reading, what | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
day? Monday the 10th of October. Thank you. Colleagues, we come to | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
the first of our two backbench business committee inspired debates | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
and therefore to the motion on domestic abuse victims in family law | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
courts. To move the motion, I call Angela Smith. Thank you, Mr Speaker. | :27:20. | :27:29. | |
I beg to move the motion as on the order paper, domestic abuse victims | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
in family courts. Can I make clear at the beginning that I will only | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
take two interventions at the most because of the heavily subscribed | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
nature of this debate, and I want people to have the time to speak. | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
The debate today isn't really about courts and laws and statutory | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
agencies. This debate is about children. Or rather it is about | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
children whose mothers have been subject to domestic abuse and who | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
themselves have become victims of violent and coercive fathers. This | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
debate in particular is about the 19 children who have died at the hands | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
of their fathers over the last ten years. All of whom had access to | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
their children through formal or informal child contact arrangements. | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
With the goodwill of the House, I want to dedicate the first part of | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
my speech to telling the story of Clive Russell, my constituent. Bear | :28:27. | :28:34. | |
with me. -- Claire Russell. It had just 15 minutes in October 2014 for | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
my life and heart to be broken completely beyond repair. I had | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
warned those involved with my case that my happy, funny boys would be | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
killed by their own father. I was right. My boys were both with their | :28:49. | :28:56. | |
father on that October day, and, at around 6:30pm, he enticed Paul and | :28:57. | :29:04. | |
jack up into the attic with the promise of trains and track to build | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
a model railway. When the boys were in the attic, he lit 16 separate | :29:09. | :29:17. | |
fires around the House, which he had barricaded. So my sons could not get | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
out and the firemen could not get in. Only 15 minutes later, the | :29:23. | :29:29. | |
doorbell rang at my mums. We were staying there temporarily after the | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
separation. It is the boys, they must be early, my mum said, but I | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
knew that was not right. The boys would have run into the House and | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
straight into my arms. They always did after a visit to their dad, I | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
they were frightened of him, he was a perpetrator of domestic abuse. The | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
agencies involved in our case knew this. I opened the door, blue lights | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
were flashing. There has been an incident at your former home, the | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
boys have been involved in a fire. Running into the hospital, the first | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
thing I saw was Paul receiving CPR. Doctor drenched in sweat and | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
exhausted told me they were withdrawing treatment. I held Paul | :30:14. | :30:23. | |
in my arms. I begged him to try, to stay, he looked tunnelling, smiled, | :30:24. | :30:35. | |
and the lies left his eyes. Then my boys were taken out of my arms and | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
into another room. There was no further chants of touching him | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
because his body was part of a serious crime inquiry. Detectives | :30:45. | :30:54. | |
informed me my former husband was suspected of starting the fire and | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
he had died. All this time I was not allowed to see Jack because they | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
were still fighting to save him. Thankfully he never knew that Paul | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
had died. He had tried to save his little brother. Police later | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
disclosed that Jack was still conscious when carried out of the | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
fire and told them, my dad did this, and he did it on purpose. This was | :31:16. | :31:23. | |
taken as his dying testimony. Jack clung to life for five days but his | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
battle was too big for him to fight, his body suffered 56% burns. He, | :31:30. | :31:37. | |
too, died in my arms after suffering cardiac arrest due to the horrific | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
injuries. That is Claire's heartbreaking story | :31:41. | :31:55. | |
but I wanted it on Parliamentary record and now, thank God, it is. It | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
is the testimony of these stories, heard in this chamber, that will | :32:01. | :32:10. | |
engineer the changes we need to think to make sure this does not | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
become another mother's story. Before I move on, I want to pay | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
tribute to Claire. In my 12 years as an MP I have never been asked to | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
intervene in a case like this. No other case has touched me like this. | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
No other constituent has impressed me so much with her bravery and | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
determination to secure something positive out of something so | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
dreadful and I want to pay tribute to the people of Penistone who | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
responded magnificently to her tragedy. Claire's husband cancelled | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
the insurance on the property before you set it on fire. He also did | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
other things I will not go into that effectively left her penniless and | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
without a home. The people of Penistone, led by our wonderful | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
vicar at Saint John's Church, rallied around, raising money to buy | :33:08. | :33:09. | |
somewhere for her to live and pulling together to make her new | :33:10. | :33:17. | |
house into a home. In black, dreadful times, such things matter, | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
and I am incredibly proud of the people I represent in this close, | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
warm-hearted community. Onto the changes that are critical | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
if we are to make sure this never happens again, on to what we need to | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
do to secure Claire's legacy and a legacy for her children, Paul and | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
Jack. The women's aid report I have referred to, 19 child homicide, was | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
published earlier this year, in response to the failure of the | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
family courts to embed in their practice the culture of putting | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
children first... I thank her for giving way, on the | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
point about family Court I think there should be an urgent review | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
because often people giving evidence are not protected by basing their | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
accuser but more importantly a constituent of mine was actually in | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
hospital, a victim of domestic abuse, the abuser got custody of her | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
children, she was not represented in the court, that is one of the | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
reasons I say we need an urgent review of Family Court practices. I | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
completely agree with my honourable friend, and all of this is despite | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
the fact, in 2004, a legal framework and the accompanying guidance was | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
produced to ensure they did so. That legal framework itself was a | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
response to an earlier report by Womens Aid, 29 child homicides, and | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
at its heart was a recognition that the courts needed to develop a new | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
culture of putting children first. The accompanying practice 20 job | :34:49. | :34:55. | |
requires courts to ensure that where domestic abuse has occurred, any | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
child arrangements ordered protect the safety and well-being of the | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
child and the parent with care and are in the best interests of the | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
child. In addition, in 2015, a new criminal offence of controlling all | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
coercive behaviour in an intimate or family relationship was introduced. | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
Practice 12 itself was amended to reflect this wider definition of | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
domestic abuse. Two developments which are potentially big steps | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
forward. My honourable friend is making an | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
incredibly powerful speech. I have been struck by the number of | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
constituents and other people I have met through my work who have said | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
that as victims, when they have gone to the courts, including Family | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
Court, they have felt they have not been believed and that those who are | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
involved in the judiciary don't fully understand the patterns of | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
domestic abuse and what to believe and who to believe in the courts. | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
Will she agree with me that there is a very important part of this as | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
well which is the training of the cherished -- the judiciary and | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
updating the training to reflect the law. I think, where I want to go to | :36:07. | :36:15. | |
now, is to ask a few questions. What are the limits of the family Court | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
given the tools at their disposal? Why is it breathing so difficult for | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
family courts to tackle this issue? Why is it so hard to put children | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
first? I would suggest, Madam Deputy Speaker, that there are two major | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
reasons. First of all, the ongoing assumption that men who are abusive | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
towards women can nevertheless be good fathers. This relief, this | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
myth, is unbelievably enduring and fires in the face of the evidence. | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
Research indicates that there are many serious and negative impacts | :36:51. | :36:52. | |
for children arriving from domestic abuse. Including children becoming | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
aggressive or conversely over compliant, all becoming withdrawn, | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
anxious and fearful. One study also found that over 34% of under 18 's | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
who had lived with domestic violence had also been abused or neglected by | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
a parent or guardian and I don't see why that should surprise anyone, I | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
really don't see why. Surely, Madam Deputy Speaker, this outdated and | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
discredited way of thinking has no place in our Family Court? Given the | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
ongoing incidents of violence against children and the frequent | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
link with domestic abuse, we need to effectively eradicate this cultural | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
legacy from our Family Court. The second reason I believe is this | :37:36. | :37:44. | |
ongoing failure on the part of the statutory agencies and the Family | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
Court judiciary to understand that domestic abuse frequently involves | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
coercive control. Abuse is about power and control. That is why it is | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
not surprising that fathers who beat up women can also abuse children as | :37:56. | :37:57. | |
well. Physical injury is not the only | :37:58. | :38:15. | |
manifestation of abuse. This is where when separation occurs and a | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
woman removes herself and her children from an intolerable | :38:20. | :38:21. | |
situation, the abusive parent frequently uses family court | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
proceedings as a means of attempting to control and coerce. This brings | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
me back to Claire's story. Her reviews exercised the ultimate | :38:33. | :38:40. | |
control over Claire. Not only did he dragged her to the family court for | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
access to his children, unsupervised access, he went on to murder her | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
children. And in doing that, he has, with one awful heartbreaking | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
criminal act exercised control over Claire for the rest of her life. | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
That should give us pause for thought. Never again will Claire's | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
life either same as her two boys have gone. And we all feel her pain. | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
And we have a duty to act. That is why I have worked with women's aid | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
and many other MPs for this debate day, I pay tribute to women's aid to | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
the work they have done and we have had reports on domestic violence | :39:28. | :39:29. | |
that reflects on what needs to be done. I have not time to go through | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
the recommendations in detail recommended in the report but | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
suffice it to say, they wish to put children first and properly | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
implement a legal framework of practice 12 including the | :39:45. | :39:46. | |
professional training of court staff and the judiciary, as my honourable | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
friend mentioned. An independent Asheville oversight of the increment | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
Asian practice 12. They also include practical measures including | :39:59. | :39:59. | |
designated safe waiting rooms for vulnerable witnesses and separate | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
entrance and exit times. And we all want to see reform of the | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
government's legal aid changes to ensure that representation in the | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
family courts the adequate and sufficient to avoid the current | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
situation which sees abused women cross-examined by their abusers. I | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
note the minister, who has written to me separately, has indicated that | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
the president of the family division has asked Mr Justice, to review | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
practice 12 to see if amendments are needed but we need more than that. | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
The public needs more than that. Indicated by the 38 degrees | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
petition, signed by over 33,000 people. We need to see the Ministry | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
of Justice take action to ensure the legal framework is Rob Elliot | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
implemented. We need to see practical changes to the way the | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
courts work. We need to see resources dedicated to ensuring | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
professional training for court staff and the judiciary. And we need | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
to see the government indicating that it will do all that is | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
necessary to improve the relationships and information | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
sharing between statutory agencies and between those agencies and the | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
family courts. There is a huge delay in Claire's case, Paul and Jack's | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
case. Above all else, for Claire's sake and the sake of all of | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
vulnerable women, we need the government to send out a very clear | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
message, by agreeing to act on today's motion, the government will | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
be sending out a clear message that domestic abuse will be tackled. And | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
that it will be dealt with in all its forms. And that we will not | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
allow our children to be harmed by it. Madam Deputy Speaker, Jack and | :41:48. | :41:56. | |
Paul must not ever be forgotten. Claire wanted their names to be used | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
in a serious case review but the authorities refused. Referring to | :42:02. | :42:08. | |
refer to them as Pete two. Jack and Paul were not Pete two. They were | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
dearly loved boys whose lives were snatched away from them by their | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
violent father. Let us make sure today that Jack and Paul will never | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
be forgotten. Please support the motion on the order paper. The | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
question on the order paper, before I call the next big, I do not want a | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
time limit on this debate but we want to be on the next debate at | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
3:30pm so if frontbenchers have ten minutes including interventions, we | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
will easily get everybody in. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker and I would | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
like to thank the honourable member for whose power. And has set the | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
context for this bait. And to thank the bank that should bash | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
micro-backbench committee for granting the debate and women's aid, | :43:01. | :43:09. | |
championing the rights of victims of domestic violence. We have very | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
disturbing findings indeed and the government and the judiciary have to | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
listen and they have to act. Every single recommendation in this report | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
needs to be considered. Further child deaths like the tragic case we | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
have just heard about have to be prevented. And the courts made to | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
challenge themselves about their current attitude, their culture and | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
their practice in all the mess the violence cases. We have to be clear | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
that there is priority given to tackling domestic abuse. And I think | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
we have a government that feels that that is a priority. And they have | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
acted, not just spoken. Coercive control is now a new offence in the | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
serious crime act of 2015. It is important that as recommended in the | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
report we are discussing today, that all members of the family court, | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
judiciary and others have specialist training to understand the reality | :44:11. | :44:19. | |
of what that new law means. Does the honourable lady agree that sometimes | :44:20. | :44:21. | |
family courts mistake persistence from fathers over access, going | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
through the courts time and again as an interest in their children rather | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
than an intimidation and bullying of their previous partner? | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
Frighteningly, in the case of my constituency, I have had a worker | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
actually say to children, who are afraid of their father and didn't | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
want to visit, that if they didn't go, their mother would be in deep | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
trouble and therefore they had to go and see their father. That is | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
shocking behaviour from any professional. She makes a powerful | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
point and she is right to pick up on the complexities of coercive | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
control, none of us can underestimate how difficult it will | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
be for professionals to truly understand the complexities of this | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
behaviour. But they must understand it to make sure that the law that is | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
already in place is put into practice. Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
know the house has also thought very long and hard about other ways the | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
government has shown its commitment to tackling domestic violence. | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
Particular you through the convention that sets out a clear | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
commitment to attacking domestic violence through legislation, | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
training and awareness campaigns. I applaud them for the fact they have | :45:40. | :45:47. | |
signed it, but can the Minister, in his or her, whichever minister is | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
reply, in their response today, clarify when the assembled | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
convention will be ratified? Not only by the UK but other countries | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
like Germany, Norway, Ireland, who are still while signatories, not | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
ratifying that treaty. It is an important statement about the fact | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
that combating violence against women and domestic violence needs to | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
be on all government agendas, we need that ratification as a way of | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
ensuring that message is sent out not just to embers of the Council of | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
Europe but two other nonmembers as well. To tackle domestic abuse we | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
need victims to feel confident in our legal system. That reports that | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
are made will be taken successfully to prosecution. That those who have | :46:33. | :46:39. | |
been abused feel safe in doing that. That is why in my contribution to | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
the debate, I want to make two specific points. First, that the | :46:44. | :46:51. | |
government needs to be clear, or perhaps in the debate today, | :46:52. | :46:53. | |
reiterate its support for the fact that legal aid for victims of | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
domestic abuse, child abuse, is still in place. And that perhaps the | :46:58. | :47:05. | |
Minister can update us on the work they are doing in this area. And | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
particularly around the domestic violence gateway where victims are | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
required to provide objective evidence of abuse to be able to | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
qualify for legal aid. I think Madam Deputy Speaker, the government have | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
made their intention in this area very clear in terms of the support | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
that should be there but in practice, some women have found it | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
difficult to have the prescribed forms of evidence that are required | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
to access the gateway. To have that evidence in place. The Ministry of | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
Justice has a review of the domestic violence gateway under way, perhaps | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
the Minister can say more about where we are with that review. | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
Because it is urgently needed. The all-party parliamentary group on | :47:55. | :47:56. | |
domestic violence, which I am vice-chair and my honourable friend, | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
the member for bone and yard -- Birmingham Yardley is the chair, I | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
would like to draw the house's attention to our recent report | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
following another parliamentary hearings with expert witnesses and | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
individuals with personal experience in the family court system. In the | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
evidence we heard, more victims are now being cross-examined by | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
perpetrators of abuse in family court proceedings. Which can affect | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
not just adults but children as well. Women's aid estimate that one | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
in four women are specifically addressed by their perpetrator. It | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
has to be right that victims should be protected when giving evidence in | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
court. And that there can be few members in this place who are | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
content with seeing alleged abusers cross examine those affected by | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
domestic violence. This has to be examined and re-examined urgently | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
and we need to put an end to survivors of domestic abuse being | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
cross-examined by their alleged abusers in court. The second point I | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
wanted to raise was regarding to special measures. It has already | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
been mentioned in an intervention earlier on. In the all-party | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
parliament regroup hearings we also heard evidence about the traumatic | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
impact of a survivor of domestic abuse coming face to face with their | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
perpetrator in court. Yet, half of all women who experienced domestic | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
violence and the family court system have no specific protection measures | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
available to them when they attend court. More than one in three, were, | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
as a result were verbally or physically abused by their former | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
partners while in court buildings. I find these figures quite shocking | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
given the nature of the crimes we aren't talking about here. I welcome | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
the Lord Chancellor's announcement today about the additional support | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
put in place for vulnerable witnesses. My understanding is that | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
victims of domestic abuse are treated as a vulnerable witnesses. I | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
hope the Minister in his contribution today can confirm that | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
those announcements, which are very welcome, including those who have | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
suffered domestic abuse and violence. Specifically, an increase | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
in the number of locations where victims and witnesses can give | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
evidence remotely. And I think, even more welcome, the prerecording of | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
evidence from 2017. These measures are a real step forward but we need | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
to make sure they are not just available to some victims but to | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
all. I am sure that members of the house will want to have those | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
reassurances today because we need all of the family courts to give | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
witnesses and victims the support they need. The other two areas of | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
special measures in family court that are important are the ability | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
for victims and witnesses to be able to have separate waiting rooms and | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
to leave the court by separate exits, particular vital for those | :51:07. | :51:18. | |
who might be living in refuges. I think the way that government would | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
want to do so as well, we need to see an end to the cross-examination | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
of survivors of domestic violence by the abusers, we need assurances that | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
special measures are routinely available for family court | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
proceedings. I thank her forgiving way, which he not agree with me that | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
what is really required here is some form of witness protection scheme. | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
We had a debate on this many years ago. I understand the point he is | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
making, that might be appropriate in some cases. But many of the people | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
who have spoken to me about this simply want these very basic | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
measures in place. Wings that should be in place already but are not | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
being given the priority they need. I know there is pressure on the | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
court system and on budgets but we have to make sure the courts see | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
this as a priority and at the moment, I think we would be forgiven | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
for thinking that they are not seeing it as a priority. The third | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
element is Robert training for family court staff, particularly on | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
coercive behaviour as set out eloquently by the Honourable member | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
for Bridgend. And finally, but not at all least, we need excellent risk | :52:30. | :52:37. | |
assessment around cases where abuse is involved. We know this is a | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
government that understands the problem, three months ago the police | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
said to the peace commissioners that victims of abuse are still being let | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
down. Improvements like the ones that have been announced today are | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
welcome. The change in culture is still not complete. We need the Lord | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
Chancellor, Minister on the bench today, my right honourable friend | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister to continue to put this | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
issue at the top of the government agenda because we need to tackle | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
domestic abuse and we need to tackle the kind of tragic cases that the | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
Honourable lady started with today and I hope this debate will continue | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
to put that at the top of the government agenda for the rest of | :53:22. | :53:22. | |
this government. I want to thank her for bringing | :53:23. | :53:37. | |
this debate and the campaigning around it because it is so necessary | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
that people in here understand the reality of what is going on. | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
I would like to thank Claire for being here, bravely, for having the | :53:50. | :53:57. | |
courage to put her personal tragedy, which most of us could not endure, | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
forward so that this can never ever happen to anybody else, and we will | :54:03. | :54:10. | |
be letting her down... Surrey, Madam Deputy Speaker, we will be letting | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
your sons down if we don't do that, and we will remember Jack and Paul. | :54:15. | :54:22. | |
It is a simple but awful fact that women bear the brunt of violent | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
crime in England and Wales. Whilst violent crime against men is | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
falling, ONS crime statistics for England and Wales show that between | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
2009 and 2014 violence against women perpetrated by someone they know | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
increased rapidly. Alongside this dramatic rise in violence, services | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
women rely on for escaping violence and abuse are disappearing. Between | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
2010-12 as third of local authority funding for domestic and sexual | :54:51. | :54:51. | |
violence services was cut and a third of referrals to refuges were | :54:52. | :55:11. | |
turned away. It is also true that domestic violence have a higher rate | :55:12. | :55:13. | |
of repeat victimisation than any other crime. On average a woman will | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
endure violence 35 times before making her first quarter the police. | :55:17. | :55:18. | |
Even once they have sought help and the case is going forwards, the | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
women are often re-victimised and re-traumatised by their perpetrators | :55:22. | :55:22. | |
through the prosecution process and in the family courts. One particular | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
focus of this are the fights that ensued between the victim and | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
perpetrator over contact the children and the consequences of the | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
decision made. Sadly this is something that women in my | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
constituency have suffered first-hand and I'm sure I'm not | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
alone in that. Just one example, I could have picked many, constituent | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
came to me with issues regarding custody and | :55:45. | :56:05. | |
contact with her child. The father had been extremely abusive and these | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
behaviours had been perpetuated by the father's parents. Unfortunately | :56:09. | :56:10. | |
other legal issues on the part of the mother led to her losing custody | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
of the child, who was placed in the care of the paternal grandparents. | :56:14. | :56:15. | |
The mother was granted contact but this was at the home of the paternal | :56:16. | :56:17. | |
grandparents, who had both facilitated and taken part in | :56:18. | :56:19. | |
abusive behaviour. The trauma experienced by the mother in order | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
to maintain a relationship with her child, as you can imagine, was | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
extreme. The judge in this case failed to understand or show any | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
appreciation of the dynamics of domestic abuse. This lack of | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
understanding doesn't just re-victimised survivors, it causes | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
direct harm to the children. The NSPCC report 20% of children in the | :56:39. | :56:41. | |
UK have witnessed domestic abuse, and exposure causes anxiety, as well | :56:42. | :56:51. | |
as learning disabilities. In 2015, it was reported that 62% of children | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
in a household where there is domestic violence perpetrated are | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
also directly harmed. How can our Family Courts fail to see the link | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
between coercive, violent and controlling behaviour perpetrated by | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
men towards women and the threat posed to the safety of children and | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
that family? Thank you for giving way. Would she agree with me that | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
there are many cases of domestic violence where the woman, perhaps | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
because she has hopes of the relationship subsisting or maybe | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
intimidation or other factors, doesn't press charges but it is | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
important we still take into account those allegations made when it comes | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
to the Family Courts? It is not just prosecution that should be taken | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
seriously? I absolutely agree and one of the reasons I agree is that | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
we need to be giving some of the responsibility for the way forward | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
to the victims, whereas the court system seems to be taking everything | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
away all the time and using evidence to penalised rather than support | :57:51. | :57:59. | |
them. I say to the Minister, how is it that family courts can knowingly | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
placed children directly in harms way? That is what is happening. The | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
2015 women aid survey of survivors of domestic abuse who had | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
experienced the Family Courts found 76% of respondents found the judge | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
granted child contact with the father when they knew the children | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
had witnessed domestic abuse. Even more terrifying, over 44% of | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
survivors reported the judge granted child contact the father when they | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
knew the children had been directly abused by the father. Will the | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
Minister confirm to the House that there must not be an automatic | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
assumption of shared parenting in child contact cases where domestic | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
abuse is a feature but that child contact | :58:40. | :59:01. | |
should be decided based on the informed judgment of what is in the | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
best interests of that child? Furthermore will the Minister | :59:06. | :59:07. | |
support Womens Aid 's recommendation that judges, staff in the Family | :59:08. | :59:09. | |
Courts and other front line staff received specialist training on the | :59:10. | :59:11. | |
impact of domestic abuse on children? Finally, it is important | :59:12. | :59:13. | |
in this debate, as it is whenever this House debate violence and a | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
survivor is forced to seek safety and face her abuser in court, the | :59:17. | :59:18. | |
damage has already been done. Early intervention that support from the | :59:19. | :59:20. | |
earliest possible age to recognise and develop positive and respectful | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
relationships will prevent children growing up believing abuse and | :59:24. | :59:25. | |
violent relationships are normal. It will teach boys and girls to respect | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
themselves and others, that their body is their own and they must | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
determine their own lives. Does the Minister therefore agreed that | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
mandatory age-appropriate resilience education in schools is necessary to | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
prevent domestic abuse and violence? Fundamentally, we ought to be trying | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
to prevent this horrific crime from ever occurring. I would like to | :59:49. | :59:56. | |
offer my congratulations to the honourable member for securing this | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
debate and for the incredibly powerful, moving speech. It was a | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
fantastic job to put that on record. I would like to congratulate Womens | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
Aid as well for the sub battle-macro a hard-hitting report of 19 child | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
homicides. It is difficult reading, it is always difficult to hear these | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
examples but he had them we must because they show that domestic | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
abuse is not just an issue, 19 real children have had their lives cut | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
short, another two seriously harmed, three mothers killed, seven fathers | :00:33. | :00:41. | |
who committed suicide and four fathers convicted and imprisoned. | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
There are likely to be many more people directly touched by these | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
tragic events, siblings, grandparents, surviving wives, | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
family and friends. All of those men were known to agencies, 11 of the 12 | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
were known to the police as well. I have had a number of constituents | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
approached me about their custody cases, with some mothers unhappy, | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
some fathers feeling they have been treated badly and grandparents | :01:07. | :01:07. | |
unable to get a look in. Whatever the rights and wrongs of | :01:08. | :01:22. | |
those individual cases, it is clear the only thing that should be done, | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
the right thing to do, is to put the child first, absolutely at the | :01:26. | :01:27. | |
centre of decision-making. There are many good examples of good practice | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
in Family Courts including my closest court in Croydon but there | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
is much more that can be done and lessons to be learned. In a number | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
of cases, there are protective screens, video links, separate | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
waiting rooms and separate entrances are available where appropriate but, | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
as we have heard, that does not always work. The Womens Aid report | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
goes on to detail a survey that was done of people but have gone through | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
the family court system pointing to areas of real concern, with 55% of | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
women saying they had no access to any protection measures in the | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
court. Extraordinarily, 25% had been cross-examined by their former | :02:03. | :02:03. | |
partner during the court. Can you imagine | :02:04. | :02:23. | |
what that poor lady must have been going through, revisiting all of | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
that again? 39% were verbally or physically abused by their former | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
partner while actually on the Family Court estate. 44% reported that the | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
judge granted child contact with the father when they knew the children | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
had been directly abused by the father, and 76% reported that the | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
judge granted child contact with the father when they knew the children | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
had witnessed domestic abuse. I want to touch on two cases. Firstly I | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
would like to add a 20th child to the list, Ellie Butler, who left her | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
short life in my constituency, Sutton. Her parents met in a club in | :02:58. | :03:12. | |
Sutton in March 2000 and six. Ben Butler had a criminal record | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
including violence, attempted robbery, intimidation of a witness, | :03:16. | :03:17. | |
and a conviction for assaulting his former girlfriend. Within weeks, | :03:18. | :03:19. | |
Jenny Gray was pregnant with Ellie. The first time Butler was left alone | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
with Ellie, who was just six weeks old, she sustained minor burns to | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
her forehead and hand. Shortly afterwards, as this was brushed off | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
as an accident, Butler again looked after Ellie. That evening he took | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
her to our local hospital where she was diagnosed with injuries that | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
suggested she may have been violently shaken. He was arrested on | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
suspicion of GBH and the London Borough of Sutton started | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
proceedings to have her taken into care. In January 2008, a judge found | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
Butler had been responsible for both sets of injuries and ruled out any's | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
mother as a long-term carer. In August that year he awarded | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
temporary custody to Ellie's maternal grandparents. Butler went | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
to prison, during which time Jenny Gray discovered she was pregnant | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
again and hit the birth from local authorities. In October 2009, Butler | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
was released on bail and walk free on appeal after three judges ruled | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
his conviction was unsafe. The quashing of the conviction did not | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
automatically reverse the ruling that the parents | :04:20. | :04:32. | |
were not fit to care for any sub Butler went to war with the | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
authorities and three years later Lady Justice Hallett made a decision | :04:37. | :04:38. | |
that was to prove fatal for any. Not only did she return any to the | :04:39. | :04:40. | |
parents custody, brushing aside convictions, saying the violent | :04:41. | :04:42. | |
behaviour was not directed at children, but went on to write, it | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
is seldom I see a happy ending public law proceedings, it is a joy | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
to oversee the return of a child to her parents. Ellie's grandfather was | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
said to have warned her, you will have blood on your hands, and how | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
prescient he was. In addition to the judgment, Mrs Justice Cox make an | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
order that all files held by the authority should be amended to | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
include reference to the fact that the parents had been exonerated over | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
her injuries and should proactively inform agencies of his innocence. | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
What can the agencies make of that? How can they be denied the ability | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
to review what was happening with a clean sheet restored to these | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
people? It was not long after Ellie went back that she suffered a broken | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
shoulder for which the parents sought no medical help as they | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
sought to hide things from the authorities. In October 2013 Ellie | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
was found dead at the hands of Ben Butler. The parents, opted a plot to | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
club up the real cause of death, even sending Ellie's younger sibling | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
to discover the body as part of the plot. Ellie's grandparents have not | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
given up fighting for her, they have been trying to fight hard for | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
custody of the two children. Unfortunately, Ellie's grandmother | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
died on the day the trial started but her grandfather continues to | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
speak out against the ruling which led to Sutton Council and other | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
agencies are unable to do their job, and they did a good job but with | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
their hands tied. My heart goes out to be and his other grandchild. I | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
was able to catch a moment with the honourable member for Warrington who | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
have had to leave the debate, and we remain, both of us, open for kneel | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
to approach and we would like to support him in any way we can. | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
Another case is far too close to home for me. Someone I know very | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
well and the situation is ongoing so I will not be specific. A few years | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
ago and met someone she later discovered had two children from a | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
previous relationship. The mother and children ended up going to a | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
refuge, changing their name and secretly moving away. Even though | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
social services were involved he managed to track them down through | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
months of trawling electoral rolls. Anna found herself soon in | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
controlling relationship, we have heard about control this afternoon, | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
stripping her away from her family and friends. He used drugs and was | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
violent on occasions. She eventually had a child but the situation | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
continued to deteriorate, affecting the child's stability and | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
upbringing, and was helped by her partner's mother to leave and start | :07:22. | :07:47. | |
again on her own. But it was not the end, Anna found a tracker in her | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
car, she was continually harassed and stored as were family members as | :07:51. | :07:52. | |
well. Agencies were aware, the police were aware, she was in and | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
out of police stations to give statements, he would pound on the | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
door at night, jumping over the fence, smashing the glass to get in | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
the door. She has had to learn so much for herself about the system, | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
her former partner has a good solicitor and knows how to make the | :08:04. | :08:05. | |
best of the system, not for the child but for the solicitor's | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
client. She could not apply for any non-molestation order while he was | :08:09. | :08:10. | |
on bail. Whilst the police were out to arrest him, her family could not | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
find out whether he was detained because of data protection issues. | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
The police have her on an alert list with a promised five minutes | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
response rate but last time it took 25 minutes. We can understand about | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
police pressure but the promise of five minutes and 25 minutes makes | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
all the difference when planning for such an eventuality. If you know it | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
is 25 minutes you can try to deal with that the best you can. Anna has | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
the support of both families, her own and her partner's. Her parents | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
discovered they were grandparents quite a long way after she was | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
stripped from the family, and they now have a wonderful, happy | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
grandchild and Anna has become the most amazing mother in the face of | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
such adversity, her child is thriving. She is lucky. Anna could | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
have found herself on the Womens Aid list. I am delighted that she has | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
not although the matter is nowhere near close, but please let's do more | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
to support the work of the groups associated with Women's Aid, let's | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
do more to improve the response for people like Anna and children like | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
Ellie. We cannot let them down. I know what it is like looking at | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
families and how helpless they feel in these sorts of cases. I cannot | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
even begin to imagine actually being involved at the heart of that abuse, | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
as we have heard about Claire, so it is really important that the police, | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
the agencies, and of course the macro to do everything they can and | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
we work to make those agencies and Family Courts work, that these | :09:36. | :09:36. | |
tragedies cannot happen again. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I | :09:37. | :09:49. | |
want to start on a positive note in a debate that has so far been | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
incredibly moving, even to those who are the most battle hardened and | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
battle weary as myself. It has been incredibly moving. The positive is | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
that today, this morning, the government released information | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
around the protection of women's refuges. From some of their changes | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
to the housing benefit bill that was going ahead. I want to pay credit to | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
the government for finally listening on the issue. But also to say that | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
in this house, on these matters, we must work together and today, all of | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
us here, the stories we are hearing today, have got to go some way to | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
getting change in this area. This is now our next boat -- next fight and | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
it is a fight that the public are going to get involved with as the | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
archers I believe is about to enter into the family court after the | :10:53. | :11:00. | |
episode on Friday is anything to go by. That has done a huge amount to | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
raise awareness of the issue. The family court is an area that needs | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
some of that. I want to pay huge credit to the member for Burnaston | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
Stockbridge, the member for Hove and the right Honourable member for | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
Basingstoke for securing this debate. The testimony about Claire's | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
story from the member for Penistone and Stockbridge was incredibly | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
moving. We have heard heartfelt heartbreak across the house about | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
the victims of domestic violence in the family courts. Having this | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
debate is important for a number of reasons. The first is to send out a | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
rally cry to all of the victims in this country, and their children, | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
that down here, in this bubble, that we can hear them. The family courts | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
in this country, for those who have never had anything to do with them, | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
and most of the people who have, are incredibly secretive. They wrapped | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
up in confidentiality, where children get called P1, P two, X | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
four. They get no media attention for this reason. It is difficult to | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
report what goes on there. So today, in this place, it is our chance to | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
bring some much-needed lie to that darkness and see what our | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
institutions are really doing for the people of the UK. I thank her | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
for giving way. Does she agree that there is still much work to be done | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
to ensure that the police get the case to court, the case of my | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
constituent, Louise, suffered the most terrible abuse but has never | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
had that day in court, not just a personal tragedy for her but a | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
national scandal for all of us. I agree entirely, in this place, we | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
have some reasons to be proud of efforts that have been made by | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
successive governments, year in and year out. The laws in this country | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
are relatively good when it comes to domestic violence. Where we fail, | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
time and again, is how we implement those laws and you don't need to | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
look much further than many police reports on assessments of how police | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
are handling cases of domestic violence to see that we need to do | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
more. In this place we often make laws and we open a door to an empty | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
room and that is a problem for victims. What I want to say to the | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
victims who may be watching this and a lot have been in touch with me to | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
tell their story and they want their stories heard. What I am sure they | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
and everybody in this place wants to say is that the most important | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
message, that victims of domestic and sexual violence rarely hear, is | :13:56. | :14:03. | |
that we believe you. Those three words, if every single one of us can | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
just tell everybody to stand and say we believe you, we could change | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
things for victims of domestic violence who are frequently | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
disbelieved by every single agency that they are put in front. The | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
second reason that today's bait is important is to educate ourselves as | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
legislators. My honourable and dear friend, the member for Hove, and I, | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
have chatted about this subject many times in the last six months. On | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
many occasions, he has come up to me and been stunned by The KC has. As | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
if this is the worst case in the whole world. -- the case he has. I | :14:41. | :14:48. | |
am sure we give voice to some of those examples today, some shocking | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
stories. He is always so shocked and horrified and angry about every | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
case. For me, the cases have become more expected, why are working with | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
victims of violence have in many ways numbed me but am only human. I | :15:03. | :15:11. | |
thank her for giving way, she talks about working with victims of | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
domestic violence, IT worked in that field and one of the things I found | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
that was frightening was that courts tend to think of domestic violence | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
only in terms of bruises or injuries. And the archers have been | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
brilliant at showing the impact of coercive and abusive behaviour but | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
there is an incredible naivete in believing that coercive and abusive | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
behaviour to mothers will not also happen to children. And if legal aid | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
were available, it would be a huge help to those women to protect | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
themselves. I couldn't agree more and I will come back to the issues | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
of legal aid in a moment. The government opposite have certainly | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
tried with the law to look at coercive control and we are to early | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
down the line in that legislation to seek something that converts, to me | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
it is not that convex, I don't find it too good to understand so I'm not | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
sure why I am constantly cutting people slack, we should understand | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
and I think the archers has definitely done something. And Henry | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
of the archers, the small boy, there is no doubt about it that that child | :16:26. | :16:34. | |
has been coerced, controlled. It is harrowing, I feel chills thinking | :16:35. | :16:44. | |
about it. The member for Hove ran up to me and said he doesn't understand | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
why people are still walking around in the streets, how can they carry | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
on with their lives when this is happening? Why are they not | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
screaming out about the family court system. Today in this place we have | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
a chance to help our colleagues here and most importantly, the members in | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
front of us on the government benches, to see the what we, all of | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
us, as a country, are sanctioning at the moment in our court system. Here | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
in this place, we have the power and the agency to change this. For every | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
victim in the country and for every victim whose children have died. We | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
must use our agency to do what they would do in a heartbeat if they were | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
anywhere near as privileged as every single one of us. And so to our aid | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
agency to changes. I speak of the report, in conjunction with the | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
report today from women's aid and I would ask the minister today to give | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
us some assurances about what we are actually going to do about this. I | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
love warm words, I say them myself. I want hard actions. Myself and the | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
Right Honourable member for Basingstoke had attempted to begin | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
this conversation with the previous Justice Secretary, however, politics | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
is a fickle game. It now falls to the next secretary to make her mark | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
on the job and it is important to state that currently we could be | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
considered to be breaking the law on these issues in the UK. As a member, | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
currently, for now, of the European Union. We sign up to specific | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
directives on protective victims and one directive explicitly states that | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
we will uphold the protection of victims within our court system and | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
contact with offenders must be avoided. And therefore in all new | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
court buildings that are built, chance would be a fine thing at the | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
moment, most have that macro must have separate waiting areas. Every | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
single day, we are breaching that. We will hear about victims who are | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
not just in the same waiting area but are allowed to be | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
cross-examined, even bullied, by the very people who have abused them for | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
years. In the criminal courts, this would be considered a severe breach | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
of human rights. It would also completely fly in the face of the | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
achieving best evidence standards and most likely, the evidence would | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
be thrown out. For years, we all campaign, the ball in this place, | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
campaigned to have children taken into video rooms. We had partitions | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
in separate waiting rooms, those things have all happened. A quarter | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
of the women survey to work found to have been directly cross-examined in | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
the family courts by their abuser. This issue is rising as a direct | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
result of the cessation of legal aid. And the rising number of | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
citizens acting as litigants in person. When I asked the Justice | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
Department another of months ago for the number of litigants in person in | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
the family courts, I was told that they don't monitor that information. | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
Might I gently suggest, because I am in a good mood because they have | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
done something good today, that, to the justice Minister, that that is | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
simply not good enough. We have to look at trends and what is happening | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
in our courts. I also want to make the point that there is a pervasive | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
myth that family courts are unfairly biased towards mothers. I think we | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
will hear today all kinds of examples of why that is not the | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
case. And it doesn't matter how many times you scale of the building | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
dressed as Spiderman, women are still badly treated in our family | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
court system. This is especially pertinent when it comes to those | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
with a history of domestic violence. The enquiry found there is no | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
evidence to suggest that it is the case that women are favoured. On | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
average, only 1% of applicants to family courts in the UK have access | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
refused. Only 1% are told they can no longer see their children. And | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
70% of all cases in front of the family courts are victims of | :21:19. | :21:28. | |
domestic violence. 1% of 70% of all cases are told they cannot see their | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
children. In three quarters of cases where courts have ordered contact | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
with an abusive parent, children suffer further abuse. Some children | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
have even been ordered to have contact with a parent who has | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
committed offences against the children themselves. We have heard, | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
children have even been killed as a result of residency arrangements. I | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
want to stress as well that an abusive partner can force a victim | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
into the family courts or any civil court in the UK as many times as | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
they like. This is not a judgment you get handed down. Your case falls | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
and then you don't get another bite of the cherry. You can go as many | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
times as you like. You can chase a woman around the country, taking the | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
same claim against and there is nothing that will stop that. There | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
is no doubt in many cases that violent perpetrators use the family | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
court system not to get their children but to continue stalking | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
and continue a reign of terror. The domestic violence a BGG that have | :22:37. | :22:44. | |
suggested recommendations are made for Mrs Grisly in line with the | :22:45. | :22:56. | |
report by women's aid. We want to see -- that fell in line with | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
women's aid. Irony hope the ministers here will listen to what | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
they are hearing here today and act as some of their colleagues have | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
today, to do the right thing, thank you very much. I first want to | :23:12. | :23:20. | |
congratulate my Honourable friends for bringing this debate to the | :23:21. | :23:22. | |
house. In particular I would like to pay | :23:23. | :23:35. | |
tribute to Denise and all of her staff at the Grimsby Womens Aid and | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
all of the women that I have met there who are amazing and who, | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
despite some real tragedy and difficulties, continue to face life | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
with bravery and extraordinary good humour. I have had several victims | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
of domestic violence come to me at surgeries in Grimsby looking for | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
help because they feel they have been let down. They feel like the | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
whole system is stacked against them. They are the ones who have had | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
to move out of the area that they live in, they are the ones who have | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
the burden of proof that falls onto them, they are the ones who have | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
their parenting constantly questioned, and it is they who live | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
in fear of abuse and feel that they will lose their children. They are | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
victims but too often feel they are treated with suspicion rather than | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
compassion and made to feel like the guilty party. The way in which the | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
macro to operate revealed a lack of understanding of the situation that | :24:34. | :24:40. | |
domestic abuse victims find themselves in -- the way in which | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
the Family Courts operate. They should not have to share a room with | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
their abuser and should not have to face cross questioning from them | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
either. As the honourable member for Basingstoke mentioned earlier, it is | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
too difficult for individuals in small spaces to be faced with their | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
abuser and I would like to thank Rush L, one of my constituents, for | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
allowing me to use her name, she was insistent that I use her name, in | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
fact, to highlight the very personal and individual difficulties that | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
represents the difficulty for so many women is because Rochelle fled | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
her abusive partner and yet was forced to face him in court several | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
times over the last six years. He is using the court system to gain | :25:28. | :25:38. | |
access to provide security at their meetings, she was made to sit at the | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
same table in a small room as her former partner and he took the | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
opportunity to make horrendous sexually derogatory comments to her. | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
This is a man who twice put her in hospital whilst she was pregnant. | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
She should never have to be in the same room as him again. But she | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
feels that the Family Court forced her back into the perpetrator's | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
presence and control. Additionally she has had no access to social | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
housing because local authority deemed her to have made herself | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
intentionally homeless, having fled her home. It is so incredibly | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
common, she is not alone in that situation. I thank her for the | :26:19. | :26:26. | |
speech she is making. She has highlighted an important issue which | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
from my work has become increasingly apparent, the training given to | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
teams in local authorities who then are dealing sometimes with social | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
services and social housing family issues where there has been domestic | :26:41. | :26:49. | |
abuse. The importance of awareness and training and leadership for | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
local authorities on these issues. I absolutely agree that training plays | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
a big part, I also think a lot more could be done in terms of cross | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
agency working and understanding. I recently visited schools in my | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
constituency and was shocked to hear a support worker who had worked in | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
the school for nearly 30 years, lived in the community in which she | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
worked, and she believed that around one in five of the children at the | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
school were in families with domestic violence. That figure is | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
shocking in itself, but on the positive side she said it was really | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
important in a school environment that children felt like they have a | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
safe space somewhere where they felt there were good relationships and | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
they were able to open up to the staff there. Again, the honourable | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
member's point about training comes in in schools as well and I believe | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
a lot of that is reported violence, so can the Government consider how | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
to get greater confidence in the system for people to even recognised | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
violence in the household as a problem because I think all so some | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
people are accepted as being a volatile relationship and don't even | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
recognise it as domestic violence all the time, perhaps that is ready | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
the coercive element comes in. That makes me believe even more that good | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
relationship education in schools can help children realise that those | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
are not normal relationships and that is not how loved ones behave | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
towards one another. I tabled Parliamentary questions relating to | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
the effect of domestic violence on children who are subject or witness | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
to it, and I am really concerned that the Government does not seem to | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
have been sufficiently interested in that subject. I asked how many | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
children the Government estimated in homes where domestic violence | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
occurred and how they believe the educational attainment of children | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
who experience domestic violence is affected. The answers I received | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
from the Department of Education word that although they count the | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
number of referrals to children social care in which domestic | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
violence is a factor, the figures do not include all children who | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
experience domestic violence and they do not publish attainment data | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
for children who have been referred. Would greater cross departmental | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
work make sure that this is highlighted because I worried these | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
answers show a lack of urgency in tackling the problem. Finally, I | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
would just like to raise an issue that another constituent brought to | :29:23. | :29:34. | |
me within the Concentrix debacle we have had uncovered because a woman | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
with two children had her tax credit money stopped two weeks ago because | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
she was subject to a random check, she was told she was suspected of | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
living with a partner, Concentrix would not disclose the name of the | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
person they suspected to be living with her, they would not make any | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
home visits, she is a single parent, she left evidence of the fact that | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
she is single, she has now been forced to use food banks, meals at | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
her parents' house, and assistance with school uniform costs for her | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
children. This is particularly difficult because that constituent | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
is a bit of domestic violence, she has had to set up her life again | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
from scratch to make sure that she and her children are safe, and feels | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
a like the state and all of the agencies involved are working | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
against her having a fresh start. The | :30:25. | :30:39. | |
lack of sensitivity, awareness and preparedness across state agencies | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
from the welfare system to Family Courts as well as the police and | :30:43. | :30:44. | |
education system lets down children and victims of domestic violence and | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
leaves them feeling that the whole system is working against them. Can | :30:48. | :30:49. | |
I start by joining the chorus of approval and gratitude to the Member | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
for Penistone and stocks bridge for securing this debate and also giving | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
voice to a family that so desperately wanted it, and doing so | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
so effectively, but also setting the tone for this debate, which I think | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
was really well appreciated by all of us who are following her | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
afterwards. I would also like to thank the honourable member for | :31:10. | :31:11. | |
Basingstoke who spoke briefly and joined in on the pitch for this | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
debate, and also to my honourable friend the Member for Birmingham | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
Yardley who was there for the debate but as a member of the committee | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
could not join in, but I could tell from her unrestrained facial | :31:27. | :31:28. | |
expressions was offering support in many other ways during the process. | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
These members and others here today have respectably championed victims | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
of domestic abuse in Parliament, in Government, and on the front line. | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
Together they bring a wealth of advocacy experience to this debate | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
but I must admit that I have some shame that I only came to realise | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
the true brutal horror of domestic violence relatively recently when I | :31:50. | :32:13. | |
became a member for Parliament. Shortly after the election last year | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
I was in my office sifting through the rubble of my campaign when a | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
woman walked in and asked if I was her new MP. When I said yes, she | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
told me she had just fled her partner having suffered the latest | :32:24. | :32:25. | |
in a long series of very brutal attacks. She sat bruised and shaking | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
and said that she was ready to move on but she needed help. She did not | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
trust the police so she turned to me. That was my first experience, | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
somebody turning to me for help as an MP, and the first time I had sat | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
down with a survivor of domestic abuse. Since that time I have got to | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
know many women who have survived violent relationships and have tried | :32:41. | :32:42. | |
to be the best advocate for them. It is through meeting and listening to | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
the Bible is that I came first to understand how our Family Courts are | :32:46. | :32:47. | |
being used to perpetuate abuse against vulnerable women. 18 months | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
ago I did not know that a convicted criminal could represent himself and | :32:54. | :32:55. | |
cross-examine the victims of his crimes over and over and over again | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
by using the Family Courts. How could I get to this age and not know | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
that? And why is it that so few people I talked to have the faintest | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
idea this is going on daily in the British legal system? One | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
constituent I'm in regular contact with and has now been cross-examined | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
by her former partner on three separate occasions. The man who beat | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
her, who broke her bones, battered her unconscious and hospitalised, | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
who was convicted for his crimes, yet still has the right to summon | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
his victim to court on a spurious custody. He will never win the case | :33:30. | :33:54. | |
but that is not the point. He is already victorious the very second | :33:55. | :33:56. | |
he steps into the court room, because in that instantly get | :33:57. | :33:58. | |
exactly what he wants, which is to continue to inflict violence and | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
abuse against a woman who has already suffered more than most of | :34:02. | :34:03. | |
us could ever possibly imagine. Is it not also important that the | :34:04. | :34:05. | |
courts understand how they are being manipulated in this way and that the | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
courts actually ought to be recording how often and abuse that | :34:09. | :34:10. | |
is deliberately using the courts to further abuse? Concentrix should | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
also be aware that where they received reports of an unreported | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
adult being in the home that actually it may well be the abuse | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
that carrying on the abuse by making. Reports and they should take | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
action to investigate that before they cut of the benefits. She makes | :34:28. | :34:35. | |
an incredibly important point. In fact, the very fact that many of the | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
men who are inflicting this violence are extremely manipulative... | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
Absolutely. They are extremely careful in the way they manipulate | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
people and systems means that far more emphasis and effort should go | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
into understanding the people who are victims who can explain the | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
behaviour the courts are dealing with. If we did that I think a lot | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
of heartbreak and also violence would be avoided. Another | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
constituent told me that she was shaking so violently after a Family | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
Court hearing that she had to be assisted to the taxi. Soon after | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
leaving the taxi had to stop to allow her to open the door and | :35:13. | :35:14. | |
vomit. Madam Deputy Speaker, those of us | :35:15. | :35:54. | |
who have not experienced it cannot comprehend the fear that survived | :35:55. | :35:56. | |
the supper. It is all encompassing and ever present. The prospect of | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
seeing the man who reigned such terror causes paralysis. The | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
faintest possibility that the abuser can get access to personal details, | :36:01. | :36:02. | |
addresses, bank account numbers, medical records, is absolutely | :36:03. | :36:04. | |
overwhelming. What is most grotesque is that abusers know this, they know | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
the Family Courts can be used to torment their victims and in some | :36:08. | :36:09. | |
cases they do so with unrelenting brutality. When you listen to | :36:10. | :36:11. | |
survivors describe their experiences of being summoned, of approaching | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
the hearing date, of being cross-examined by their abuser, and | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
then the aftermath, there is one inescapable truth. The language and | :36:16. | :36:17. | |
vocabulary describing the Family Court experience is identical to the | :36:18. | :36:19. | |
way they described the violence they have experienced in the relationship | :36:20. | :36:21. | |
which they bravely escaped. It should shock everyone that Family | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
Courts are being used in a way that inflicts, not ends, violence against | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
women. Worst of all, from the abuser's perspective, it works. One | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
constituent told me last month that she is dropping harassment charges. | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
This is because there is a good chance that her | :36:39. | :36:50. | |
abuser will gain access to her mental help files because he has | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
chosen to represent himself. She simply cannot bear the thought of | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
him reading and then being gratified by such intimate and personal | :36:57. | :36:58. | |
information. Another has told me that she simply cannot face another | :36:59. | :37:00. | |
cross examination by her convicted abuser. She had been medicated in | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
order to endure the last experience and then the recovery from it took | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
weeks. She told me that if he tries again, she will capitulate, she will | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
give him whatever is demanded simply to avoid the experience. She said to | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
me, I simply do not have it in me to survive another cross examination. | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
There is one example that sums up the sheer horror of the abuse. It is | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
continuation in the Family Court, and that is of Jane Clough. Jane | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
Ross in an abusive and violent relationship until she finally took | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
action and went to the police. Her ex-partner, Jonathan Vass, appeared | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
in court charged with nine counts of rape, one sexual assault, and three | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
counts of common assault. Some of this had taken place while Jane was | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
heavily pregnant with his child. Inexplicably, the judge described | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
DECC decided that that was not a threat and freed him on bail. Jane | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
lived in so much fear that she moved in with her parents for comfort and | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
protection but he eventually found out where she was working and in | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
July 2010 he attacked her as she headed home from work. He stabbed | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
her 19 times and then slashed her throat. Wounds from which she died. | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
The next day, he was arrested approaching her parents' home. He | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
was on his way to murder either his baby child, Jane's parents, or both. | :38:30. | :38:42. | |
I have had the honour of talking to Jane's parents and sister. They are | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
a family whose grace and dignity shine above the horror that they | :38:46. | :38:47. | |
have had to endure. But there is more to this terrible episode, and | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
they are desperate for people to hear about it and learn from it. | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
Once in prison, Vass began demanding parental rights over his child. This | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
was a child whose mother he had beaten and murdered. And the child | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
he would have, in all likelihood, murdered himself if he had had the | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
opportunity. None of us can imagine the pain this caused to Jane's | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
family, but it gets worse still. Jane's sister began adoption | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
proceedings to break the link with Vass. From that moment onwards, the | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
family experienced a legal system stacked in his favour rather than | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
the baby that he had tried to kill. Without access to financial support | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
or the delayed, the family had to find separate representation for the | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
baby and the rest of the family. He had a legal firm not donating -- had | :39:39. | :39:46. | |
a legal firm not donated pro bono representation, they would have had | :39:47. | :39:48. | |
to sell their house to cover the costs. A five-day hearing was | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
scheduled in the Family Court and they were informed Vass had | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
exercised his right to self representation. The man who brutally | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
murdered their sister, their daughter, would be cross-examining | :40:02. | :40:02. | |
them. Chamber of sister says she cannot | :40:03. | :40:13. | |
find the words to express the brutalising fact of this. -- Jane's | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
sister. They were stunned to discover that this was because of | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
concerns for his safety and had nothing to do with the well-being of | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
them. As Jane's sister told me, "It was so shocking, it was all about | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
him. What was best him and how best to protect his rights. Nothing had | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
been balanced against our rights." Under representation, the ask | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
personal questions to the family members, referring to the baby, to | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
the husband, he said "What makes you think you can be a dad to my | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
daughter?" The trauma meted out by the family court process is simply | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
inhuman. This family had suffered enough. The family have asked me to | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
pass on their thanks to two advocates who made a difference to | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
them during and since these events. Dame Louise Casey, whose victims | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
Commissioner learned from their experience and took steps for | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
greater recognition for victims in the family courts. The second is my | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
right honourable men -- right honourable friend, the member for | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
Hogan and Saint Pancras. He, as the Republic prosecutions got to know | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
the family very well. They spoke in the highest possible terms of him | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
and his advocacy for them in this episode. Progress has been made | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
deputy speaker but it has been clay seal. We have not seen a | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
transformation that is desperately needed. The abuse and brutalisation | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
of women and families is being perpetuated with our legal system. | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
To the abuses, the family courts is another tool they can extend their | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
hate, violence and their control of extremely vulnerable women. These | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
are exactly the kind of people the state exists to protect. And that is | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
why every day these practices are are allowed to continue, shame is | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
heaped on our justice system, on this house and on our government. We | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
have the power to stop this happening and yet it continues. Can | :42:21. | :42:30. | |
I also start by thanking the honourable member for Penistone and | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
Stockbridge for securing today's important debate and for her very | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
moving speech. And also the other members who have contributed very | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
moving stories from the own constituents's experiences. I would | :42:45. | :42:53. | |
like to commend women's aid and the group report, we must not stay | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
silent on the issue it raises. We must speak up for the children whose | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
safety and well-being is being put at risk, and their lives, due to | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
poorly risk assessed contact with parents who are known perpetrators | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
of domestic abuse. The fact that in England and Wales in the last ten | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
years, 19 children have been murdered, two mothers, two further | :43:15. | :43:16. | |
children have faced attempts on their lives and seven fathers have | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
killed themselves after killing their children indicates to me that | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
there are indeed systemic shortcomings in the approach to | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
family contact that need to be addressed. I wish I could stand here | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
and say it is all rosy in Scotland but in the other two we face similar | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
challenges. In some respects, we have a fairly | :43:33. | :43:47. | |
robust legislative framework but sometimes the application falls | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
short and we know there is more to do. I am glad that Nicola Sturgeon | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
announced last week that a new domestic abuse bill will be part of | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
the new programme for government. Recognition that psychological abuse | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
and coercive and controlling behaviour can be difficult to | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
address under existing laws and proposed legislation to put that | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
right. Understanding of coercive control has grown. | :44:14. | :44:25. | |
Abusers can use coercive behaviour to continue their abuse through the | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
court system. The underlying issues are similar both sides of the | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
border. I want to highlight the shortcoming our legislation and | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
those areas where it new legislation regulatory guidance could strengthen | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
the well-being of and limit the opportunities for abusers to | :44:47. | :44:47. | |
perpetrate further harm. In rightly, child welfare and | :44:48. | :45:02. | |
children's interests are put first, the law states that when a court is | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
considering the case of a child in relation to parental rights and | :45:08. | :45:09. | |
responsibilities, they must take into account the need to protect the | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
child from abuse or risk of abuse that might affect the child. The law | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
also states that courts must take into effect -- account, the fact | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
that the risk of abuse that the person carrying out the abuse and | :45:24. | :45:34. | |
when a parent raises an action about the residents of a child, the court | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
is under a statutory duty to give the child the opportunity to express | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
his or her views giving account of the child's age and maturity. The | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
court has to have regard as to the views they may express having them | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
due weight relative against the child's age and majority. This | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
ensures the legislation complies with the UN Convention, so far, so | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
good. Unfortunately that is not how it always works in practice. I fear | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
the law is not being consistently applied and can take scant account | :46:10. | :46:22. | |
of the parent with care. Edinburgh University hosted a conference this | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
week that looked at these issues around child contact. I was not able | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
to attend but a keynote presentation was made by the Reverend Tracey | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
Hart, who in October last year was sentenced to 12 months in jail for | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
contempt of court having been accused of attempting to keep her | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
children away from their father. Whom press reports suggest he was a | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
convicted murderer with a history of violence. She spent eight days in | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
jail before being released on appeal. The appeal judges said the | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
sentence was incompetent and she should not have been convicted in | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
the first place but what disturbs me most was that two sheriffs were | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
involved in these outrageous proceedings. That shows we are still | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
tackling the vestiges of an attitudinal culture where the | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
dynamics of coercive control are poorly understood but the impact of | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
domestic abuse is underestimated and the voices of children are | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
diminished. The experience of Tracey Hart and her children suggest that | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
in some part of the judiciary, children's own rights to have their | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
voices heard and respected are not taken seriously enough. Mothers who | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
seek to protect themselves and their children from abusive and dangerous | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
former partners are still seen in some quarters as bitter and | :47:40. | :47:46. | |
vindictive troublemakers. We still have some way to go to ensure that | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
all sheriffs are properly equipped to preside over such cases. I think | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
Tracey Hart has been incredibly brave in speaking out but the other | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
troubling thing that comes out of the court processes that she went | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
through, it is that it can be used for partners to perpetrate further | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
abuse. My comments on this echo previous speakers, we need to ask | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
whether contact arrangements are robust enough to protect families | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
from further abuse and find ways to prevent contact becoming a vehicle | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
through which an abusive ex can continue to abuse their former | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
partner. We need to look at how contact is risk assessed and the | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
staff in courts and contact centres are trained to spot signs of | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
controlling and manipulative behaviour. And with a new regulatory | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
violence that macro regulatory -- at the moment, there is a | :48:40. | :48:47. | |
presumption that contact with parents is a good thing but when | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
France has a history of violence and abuse, is that really the case? I do | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
think we have got the balance right. Tracey Hart said her children were | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
reluctant is bent on with their father. A psychiatric assessment | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
suggested that contact was damaging to their mental health and described | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
her elder son even vomiting before a contact session. These children were | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
still compelled to attend sessions and could -- cajoled by staff to | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
spend time with their father even though they did not want to. Frankly | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
it is not good enough and we need to ensure that all parts of these | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
islands become a safer place for those who have endured domestic | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
abuse. It is incumbent on every single one of us to name these | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
abuses of power for what they are and speak out on behalf of those | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
whose lives are damaged and endangered under present approaches. | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
We can do much better and we must do much better and I hope ministers are | :49:41. | :49:49. | |
listening today and I hope we will. Before I begin my speech, I would | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
pay to get to the backbench committee for bringing this debate | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
forward. I want to pay to view to the moving testimony we have heard | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
today and the contributions from the member of Penistone and Stockbridge | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
and the member for Sutton and Cheam, who told us quite harrowing tales of | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
their experience with constituents. This debate follows in the wake of | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
the publication of women's aid's 19 child homicide report. It is an | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
important debate and there is no doubt there is much more reflection | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
and circumspection required in the treatment of those who have been | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
victims of domestic abuse in family courts. The report tells a tragic | :50:32. | :50:40. | |
and appalling story of 19 children all intentionally killed by a parent | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
who was also a known perpetrator of domestic abuse over a 10-year | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
period. These killings were made possible by an safe formal and | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
informal child contact arrangements. Shockingly, they report uncovers a | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
range of concerns regarding child contact including routine failings | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
to follow legal protocols and a lack of professional understanding about | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
the power and control dynamics of abuse. One of the issues that I | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
think is worthy of consideration is that domestic abuse itself has not | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
been a criminal offence so single incidence are prosecuted under a | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
range of offences come such as common assault or rape. There has a | :51:24. | :51:30. | |
new -- there is now a new offence of coercive control. Because it may | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
prove difficult to prosecute this kind of case, Scotland has announced | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
a new domestic abuse bill as part of Scotland's programme, putting | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
Scotland at the forefront of Nations in attacking the true nature of | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
domestic abuse. This would include criminalisation of psychological | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
abuse and a range of associated measures to modernise the justice | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
system and how it responds to domestic abuse. This is being | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
debated in the Scottish Parliament on this very day. It is clear that | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
domestic abuse is underreported but there is a growing understanding of | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
the damaging impact which known physical forms of abuse can have on | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
those who are subject to it. Methods of control and even threatening to | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
harm others, including children. And in Scotland, the creation of a new | :52:20. | :52:30. | |
offence, of domestic abuse is progress. It will have a significant | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
impact on how society views domestic abuse by ensuring that there is | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
clarity about what is unacceptable under the law. This will make | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
efforts from the police services and the prosecution services more | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
effective in dealing with domestic abusers. Importantly, it will bring | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
clarity for those subjected to domestic abuse at the justice system | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
is focusing on their needs and the needs of their children. Protecting | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
people in abusive relationships and their children, as we have heard so | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
much about today, must be the overriding objective. We spend a lot | :53:07. | :53:13. | |
of time in this chamber talking about children's literacy and | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
education, even their obesity levels. But before we can tackle any | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
of those issues, we must ensure that sufficient measures are in place to | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
keep them safe from harm. Even when necessary from the domestic abuse | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
parent. Family court must be mindful of this. It has to be presumed that | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
contact with the abusive parent is not in the best interest of the | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
child or the known abusive parent who could be required to leave them | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
in considerable danger. It is important the family courts consider | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
parenting capacity, and the chance of future abuse on the ability to | :53:56. | :54:03. | |
parent safely the child and that of the abusive parent. It is vital that | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
family courts prevent further child death by or with putting children | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
first in family courts. This requires something of a cultural | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
change within the family court system to ensure the safety and | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
well-being of children and non-abusive parents is understood | :54:20. | :54:20. | |
and consistently prioritised. When a partner is in an abusive | :54:21. | :54:32. | |
relationship, children in that household are not safe either. And | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
that is an obvious reality towards which all the evidence points. I | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
would urge the Minister to look carefully at the measures put | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
forward in Scotland by the first Minister. It doesn't matter where | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
governments learn from all which examples they follow, the only thing | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
that matters is that lives are improved or, as we have heard today, | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
tragically, that lives are saved, more specifically the lives of | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
children. The 19 child homicides report should give us all pause for | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
thought. One child killed by a parent or carer is one child to | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
many, and these children have no voice. We must be their voice, we | :55:13. | :55:23. | |
must ensure that our justice systems in all corners of Scotland, in all | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
corners of the United Kingdom, serve their children well and keep them | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
safe. Let me begin by congratulating my honourable friend for securing | :55:30. | :55:37. | |
this important debate, and by paying tribute to her constituent, Claire. | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
As a Sheffield resident I can well remember hearing the shocking news | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
of the murder of her two sons, Jack and Paul, and being horrified to | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
find that this came at the hands of their own father. And man who was | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
known to the authorities for his history of domestic violence. I'm | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
inspired by the bravery Claire has shown in such tragedy. Working with | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
women's aid to raise awareness and push for change in the way family | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
courts operate, and I'm pleased to see so many members of this debate | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
joining in her struggle. Sadly, what happened to Claire's sons was not an | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
isolated event. As we have heard, between 2005 and 2015, 19 children | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
in 12 families were killed by perpetrators of domestic abuse. All | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
of the perpetrators were fathers to the children that they killed, all | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
of them had access to their children through formal or informal child | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
contact arrangements. As the Womens Aid report makes clear, the blame | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
for these deaths lies solely with the abusive fathers who killed their | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
children. The failures of the family court system does not in any way | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
detract from that. Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that when it comes | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
to cases involving domestic abuse, the family courts too often fail to | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
put the safety of children and abuse part first. Potentially exposing | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
them to further risk -- abused partners. The Ministry of Justice | :57:11. | :57:17. | |
child arrangements and contact order domestic violence and harm but a | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
clear onus on the family courts to put the safety and best interests of | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
the child first when considering child arrangement orders in cases | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
where domestic violence or abuse has occurred. This guidance is, you | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
would think, simple common sense. Unfortunately, it is not always | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
properly implemented. Family courts understandably take the view that a | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
child should have sustained contact with both parents. Clearly in the | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
majority of cases this could be the desired outcome. The problem arises | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
in many cases where domestic violence is a factor. Where contact | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
with an abusive parent is likely to lead to further harm to that child, | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
but where this is outweighed by the perceived importance of maintaining | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
contact with both mother and father. In other words, the belief that a | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
child's best interests are for them to have safe contact with both of | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
their parents. Although usually the case, it has become an article of | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
faith from which family courts find it difficult to deviate, even for | :58:25. | :58:31. | |
the child's own safety. What's more, this is skewing of priorities | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
encouraged in part by legislation, the children and families Act 2014 | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
and in law the principle of contact with both parents as best for | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
children. While this is certainly the case for the majority, it does | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
not recognise that in circumstances where a parent has a history of | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
domestic violence such contact can put a child in harms way. Whenever | :58:54. | :58:59. | |
there are allegations of domestic abuse, there must be a serious | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
assessment authorised by the courts and carried out by experts of the | :59:03. | :59:09. | |
implications that this has by the -- for the child and the safety of the | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
non-abusive parent. For too long the safety of the partner and the | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
children have been viewed as two separate matters by the court. We | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
must encourage a courtroom culture which use them as part of the same | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
issue. Womens Aid are calling for national oversight of the | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
implementation of practice direction 12J and I urge the Minister to look | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
carefully at how we can bring about a shift in the thinking of family | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
court so child safety is put back at its heart. It is not just the | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
decisions of the family courts that are in need of scrutiny but also | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
their working practices. Whilst victims of domestic abuse can be | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
provided with a number of protections when in criminal courts, | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
such as giving evidence from behind a screen or through videolink, these | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
are not available in family courts. On top of this, thanks to the | :00:01. | :00:27. | |
Government's cuts to legal aid, more and more people going to family | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
courts are forced through lack of funds to represent themselves rather | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
than take on a solicitor. The National Audit Office estimates that | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
there has been an 80% increase in the number of cases taken to the | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
family courts where one of the parties is not represented by legal | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
professional, and a 30% increase in cases where neither party has such | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
representation. The upshot of all this is that it is increasingly | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
common for victims of domestic abuse not only to have to face their | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
abusers in court but be directly questioned by them as well. | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
Thankfully there is a greater understanding now than there was in | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
the past that abuse within relationships does not only take the | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
form of physical violence. We know that intimidation, and coercion, are | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
just as much a feature. It takes a great deal of courage for those | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
suffering from domestic abuse to break free from these relationships, | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
and we must ensure that they are offered all the support and | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
encouragement that they need. What they should not have to put up with | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
is basing their abuse's questioning directly in court and being placed | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
in a position where the intimidation they have escaped from is inflicted | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
on them once again. The protection that applies to criminal Court | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
should likewise apply to family court and I trust the Minister will | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
take some time to reflect on the ordeal that appearing in these | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
courts so often is for the victims of abuse. But, above all, I urge the | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
Minister to instigate a full review as other honourable members have | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
called for based on the report submitted by Womens Aid and the APPG | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
on domestic violence, because we must ensure that Jack and Paul and | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
all of the victims are never forgotten. Thank you. | :01:53. | :02:01. | |
I would first like to pay a huge debt to the speakers who have | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
preceded me in this debate, particularly the Member for | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
Penistone who spoke about the heartbreaking case of the | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
constituent Claire Throssell, I am in awe of her strengths in the face | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
of unimaginable trauma and I am glad we can be part of putting Jack and | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
Paul's names on the record here today. I would also like to pay | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
tribute to the amazing Womens Aid organisations across the violence, | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
particularly in Scotland to assisted me in preparing for this debate and | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
work to support women through the ordeal of domestic abuse. They have | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
told me child contact issues are still a huge issue for them. I also | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
pay credit to Glasgow Womens Aid and Rape Crisis centreboard work they do | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
to support women which includes going through the court process. I | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
long for the day, as I'm sure we all do, where women and children can | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
live without fear but until then I'm so glad these organisations and | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
committed staff and volunteers carry out their vital, life-saving work. | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
The Scottish Government is responsible for child protection in | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
Scotland and members may be aware there is a debate going on in the | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
Scottish Parliament today also on new proposed domestic abuse | :03:09. | :03:09. | |
legislation which will build on the excellent work. There is ongoing | :03:10. | :03:18. | |
work on gender based violence and I can recommend all of those involved. | :03:19. | :03:26. | |
The proposed bill in Scotland will create a new offence of domestic | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
abuse which include psychological abuse such as coercive and | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
controlling behaviour which can be difficult to deal with under the | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
existing laws that we have. It will also ensure appropriate penalties | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
are available and find a range of measures to modify the justice | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
system to respond to domestic abuse. We already have in Scotland the | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
victims and witnesses Act which allows special measures in court | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
automatically in criminal cases and the application in some cases can be | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
really important, I have spoken to a number of organisations involved in | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
this and it helps to have these measures in place. The basis for the | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
system is good but sadly Scotland is not immune from the difficulties | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
described so far in this debate. Court processes are not yet perfect | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
and this is reflected in the experiences of women and children | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
going through the system. Scottish Womens Aid tell me there remain | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
concerned by the situation in court where women are not believed, where | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
their experience of domestic abuse is downplayed. The significance of | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
being able to tell your story and be believed is huge. Women are | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
consistently undermined by the abuse they have suffered, their confidence | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
is shattered, getting as far as going to court is a massive ordeal. | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
The legal process then removing any last part of dignity a woman has is | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
unforgivable. There also exists this artificial separation as the Member | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
for Penistone and others have mentioned between an abuser's | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
actions and ability to carry out their role as a parent. It is seen | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
as entirely logical to most people that someone of a mind to abuse, | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
threaten, undermined, rape and control their partner, their ability | :05:08. | :05:09. | |
to care appropriately for their children would come into question. | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
That is not always the case and the notion that a court would decree | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
that contact with the parent who demonstrated capacity for violence | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
is more important than the safety of the child absolutely terrifies me. I | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
have had testimony sent to me by Women Against Rape which I will, in | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
the interest of time, addressed later on, but the prospect of having | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
to deal regularly with an abusive partner is incredibly daunting. | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
Scottish Womens Aid have said the court process denies women and | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
children their right to be protected and recover from abuse. The | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
processes and decisions in our courts are guilty of | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
re-victimisation and this issue of re-victimisation is a very important | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
one and one that we need to look at a cross Government, across the | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
practices that we have. Concentrix was mentioned earlier and the fact | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
that they put people in a position where they are being re-victimised, | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
benefits tribunal scampered people in a situation where their | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
experiences are called into account. The DWP are in that position as well | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
and I mentioned here as I have mentioned before the issue around | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
universal credit and household payments, I mentioned the two child | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
policy and the rate clause and a Government Minister can tell me in a | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
meeting that he bored women suffering domestic abuse should just | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
flee is deeply, deeply worrying and the Government needs to reflect | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
about how we value women and children and how we make sure that | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
they are protected at every aspect of their lives. The abuse of | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
children of course must also be taken into account because they | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
experience that trauma of domestic abuse and can carry that through | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
their whole lives. Their voices are not always heard as they should be. | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
There is a new project called Power up, power-down, under way with the | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
Scottish Young people and Childrens' Commissioner in partnership with | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
Womens Aid and this has the potential to change the way court | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
processes are carried out to allow young people's voices to be heard | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
and allowed their chance to determine what would make them feel | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
safest and what their needs and desires are. They don't want to be | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
put in a position where they are in fear of their lives, where they were | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
really about the impact of them visiting an abusive parent on their | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
mother as well. Finally I would like to read a card from the Recounting | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
Women project which agencies in Scotland have carried out. It is a | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
participate we photo voice product allowing women to share their | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
personal experiences of domestic abuse and it is online as well. I | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
quote, this is the Sheriff Court where I experienced so much | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
injustice. From unsupervised visits, how much abuse can a father do to | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
his child, that puts his child in the streets, changes the locks, put | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
their clothes outside in bin bags? They force the children to see their | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
dad while I am trying to help them forget the trauma. I asked ministers | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
to reflect on this and for us all to reflect a cross Government how we | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
can help these children to be safe. Keir Starmer. Can I congratulate | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
those who secured this debate and everybody that has spent so long | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
working on this issue in particular the APPG on domestic violence and | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
Womens Aid for raising this issue of how domestic violence victims are | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
dealt with in the family Court. The statistics and examples of domestic | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
abuse, some of which have been given this afternoon, are so continually | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
shocking that we have got a duty to come back to the debate over and | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
over again. I don't intend to repeat anything that anybody has already | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
said, I wanted to address two issues, the first is what has been | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
happening in the criminal courts to make the position better, and to | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
raise the question of why it has not been done in the family courts. | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
Secondly, to go to the question of abuse of process where individuals | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
are clearly using the civil courts for a purpose they were not intended | :09:12. | :09:13. | |
for. There are still problems with | :09:14. | :09:24. | |
criminal courts in dealing with domestic abuse but anybody who has | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
worked on this and across the house, people have worked on this. Will | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
recognise that in the last ten to 15 years, real strides have been made | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
in real difference has taken place in relation to the criminal | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
approach. I want to outline why I think that has happened. This is a | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
time to reflect on the criticism of family courts and to see if it can't | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
be replicated. The first thing is we began to count the cases. Back in | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
2002-3, nobody knew how domestic abuse cases were going into criminal | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
Court. So you couldn't begin to have a policy or strategy. We started | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
counting the cases. If the number of cases where litigants in person are | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
not being counted now in front of family courts, it needs to start. | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
Within that, we need to understand having them may be victims of | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
domestic abuse. Counting them is the starting point. You then need a | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
policy so that everyone who plays a part in the process has a policy | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
that helps them make the right decisions in the area they are | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
responsible for. That happened in the criminal process that ten or 12 | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
years ago. Those processes began to be rolled out and they have improved | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
over the years. You need a strategy. The strategy that makes it clear | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
what you are trying to achieve, and that it is proactive and forces | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
things to change. You need leadership. People prepared to go | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
out and change what is going to happen. All of that has helped in | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
the criminal sphere. A lot of people leaning in different ways and when | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
you look at the position and how it has changed. To a position where it | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
is now not recognisable. Independent domestic violence advisers, | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
independent sexual violence advisers are there and are extreme the good | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
and relied on by victims to help them through that part of the | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
process. Specialist courts for domestic violence made a real | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
difference where everybody in the court room was trained and | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
understood the issues. There were separate courts and lists and it was | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
an environment that made it easier to deal with domestic violence | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
cases. Better coordination of support, with groups like women's | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
aid and many others, out there to provide support for victims for the | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
journey they would go through in the courts. And practical measures, that | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
took the strain off the victim. The most important, absolutely making | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
sure that a nine 990 is always secured. The tape of the person who | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
phoned the police to report what has happened. And then, a police officer | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
arriving at the scene with a body camel. Those two elements will | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
secure a conviction in almost every case of domestic abuse. It is | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
amazing that it is not the norm, even in the criminal sphere. If you | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
have that, you would almost certainly be able to prove domestic | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
abuse without strain on the victim, who is the person who has to make | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
the case in court. You can prove it with those bits of evidence. I | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
talked to the APG G, and heard some of the evidence that family courts, | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
I was struck by the fact that it simply would not be tolerated in the | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
criminal courts any more. The special measures are a norm in the | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
criminal courts and it would be thought to be the duty of the | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
prosecutor, defence and the court to make sure those provisions are in | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
place. Those are some of the changes that have taken place that have | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
undoubtedly improve the situation in the criminal courts. I am not saying | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
it is perfect and suggesting that more can't be done but it came about | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
because a number of individuals decided to listen. To what people | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
were saying to them. The honourable member for Hove has mentioned the | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
case of Jane Clough, the terrible case, Penny and John, her parents, | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
came to see me and I sat down and let them tell me what had happened | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
to them in their journey through our courts. It reflected on the | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
organisation I was running and reflected on the criminal justice | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
system for which I am very proud but I listened. Other people listened. | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
You need to listen, that is why today's debate is really important. | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
We need to listen and be not defensive. My experience in criminal | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
justice was the moment your organisation was criticised, you | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
circle the wagons and try to protect what you think is good rather than | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
accepting what might not be so good. We need a number -- nondefensive | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
response, an open response and a determination. Jane parents asked me | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
to go on the journey to change some of the things that have gone wrong | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
with them. I am proud to call them friends and advocates in the | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
continuing journey we are on. There are real lessons here and I look to | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
the front bench opposite, there are real lessons about what has happened | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
in the criminal justice world in the last 15 years and ask westerns as to | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
why some of that cannot be replicated in the family courts and | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
other courts, starting with listening in a nondefensive way and | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
listening to the possibility for change. This is an issue that is | :14:54. | :15:01. | |
rising up the agenda and it is the examples of perpetrators of domestic | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
abuse who then use our courts, criminal and civil but civil is | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
where the torch has not been shone. To continue the perpetration of | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
control and harassment of the victims. I would like to page a bid | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
to Claire Waxman, who has raised this issue on a number of occasions. | :15:23. | :15:32. | |
-- paid tribute. The first is the person who has no interest in the | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
proceedings at all but doing it to ensure the person they are stalking | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
or harassing is forced to come to court to strike their claim out. The | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
court will strike the claims out when the court gets to grips with it | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
as a vexatious claim but the victim has to go to court to argue that it | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
is vexatious. That is all the perpetrator wants. To force someone | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
to come to court. It happened to Clare Waxman and other victims. This | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
can be solved by Christmas, I am busy looking straight across to the | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
opposition front bench, that it ought to be possible, working for | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
the senior judiciary to devise a way to ensure these cases have a special | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
strike at procedure that doesn't require the victim to come to court | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
to take the initiative. To have some other third party to do it. With a | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
month or two's hard work, a system could be put in place to deal with | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
that and simply put that problem on one side with some real courage and | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
determination. The second is more difficult. That is where the | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
perpetrator has an interest, maybe a child or some other aspect, | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
therefore it is not possible to say that the individual simply shouldn't | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
be allowed in court at all. In those circumstances, we would look at the | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
special measures, support, a different way of arranging family | :17:02. | :17:03. | |
courts and other courts to ensure they are not used for an ulterior | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
motive. There is growing evidence that that is the case. Those are | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
difficult cases but it must be possible to have support for victims | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
and special measures and a more proactive role for judges. A big | :17:20. | :17:21. | |
change in the criminal courts is that judges began to be more | :17:22. | :17:29. | |
proactive and would feel a duty to provide a better situation for | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
victims in court. These issues are not going to go away, they need to | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
be solved, I think across the house, but I think now it takes listening, | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
non-defensiveness and commitment to bring about change. In the criminal | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
sphere, that has happened and it needn't take 15 years but lessons | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
from one jurisdiction can be taken to the other. As often is the case | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
in the main chamber, I am usually the last big. I look forward to | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
making a contribution and can I first say how touched I was by the | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
contributions of all the Right honourable and honourable members of | :18:14. | :18:15. | |
this house. Particularly the honourable lady who set the scene | :18:16. | :18:26. | |
from Penistone and Stockbridge. To say this as well, other members, | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
through the stories they have as MPs, relating to their own | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
constituents, have very eloquently and powerfully in this chamber today | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
have put their cases forward and it is good to have those on record as | :18:41. | :18:53. | |
well. Many will have felt the heartache and no stories today. I | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
would like to speak from a Northern Ireland angle as I always do in this | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
house. The figures in Northern Ireland, I wish I could say they | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
were better but unfortunately they are not. When you hear some of the | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
stats, you will understand what some of the problems are that we have | :19:12. | :19:20. | |
back home. It requires much thought and consideration and affects far | :19:21. | :19:22. | |
too many homes and families in the United Kingdom. The statistics are | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
shocking, during this contribution, for myself and others from across | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
the UK, police will have received ten calls at least regarding | :19:34. | :19:35. | |
domestic abuse, that is simply horrific to me. Multiply those ten | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
calls for every member who has spoken and you'll get an idea of the | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
number of domestic abuse cases that have taken place since this debate | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
started just after 1p. In Northern Ireland in 2014-15, 11 2000 | :19:50. | :19:58. | |
incidents reported to the P S and I. Police responded to domestic | :19:59. | :20:05. | |
incidents every day. -- P S N ire. I am not sure the reasons for that, | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
people with much more knowledge will explain that. It may be down to a | :20:09. | :20:15. | |
conflict of some 30 years and may be down to the economic changes that | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
have taken place. It is certainly down to society that there was peer | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
pressure and all of the things that happened have come up on us and make | :20:22. | :20:30. | |
relationships difficult to make safe and compatible. Some 30,000 domestic | :20:31. | :20:38. | |
abuse crimes were committed, 13% of all crime in Northern Ireland. That | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
puts it in perspective as well, looking at those figures. In that | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
year, six murders had a domestic abuse motivation. That represented | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
37.5% of all murders in Northern Ireland. Domestic abuse in Northern | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
Ireland, statistically, is a very negative and the figures indicate | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
that. Over two and a half times as many domestic abuse crimes, of | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
13,000 were much higher than drug offences. We know how important it | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
is to deal with drugs but in that period of time, there were 5000 drug | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
offences and 13,426 domestic abuse cases. There were more domestic | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
abuse cases than burglary, which topped out at 9000. There were 2734 | :21:27. | :21:39. | |
offences of rape, again, very worrying figures. There were multi | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
agency risk assessment cases have been discussed, of which, some | :21:47. | :21:55. | |
10,000 856 children living in the household, 7009 and 55 cases, the | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
victims were female. I want to give some of the sample is, without | :22:00. | :22:12. | |
mentioning any names. A case of one lady in in my constituency, she has | :22:13. | :22:24. | |
two children. Her husband and her became estranged and he became | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
violent. He would wait at the back door one night with a sledgehammer | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
and smashed the door. The police responded very quickly, within five | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
minutes they were there. And they arrested him and took him away. That | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
relationship broke down but not only is it the violence perpetrated on | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
the doorstep, in many cases, it is the trauma and the emotional | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
situation for the woman and the children herself that macro | :22:54. | :22:54. | |
themselves. Another case of an ex-partner who | :22:55. | :23:09. | |
was pursued by her ex-at her home, work and on the streets. Almost to a | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
case where she was fearing for her life. She took her own life, we have | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
to look at the side-effects of what happens. That is one of the things | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
that happen. Stop me if I am wrong but there is a massive issue across | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
and we must make changes to handle this in the best way possible. In | :23:41. | :23:48. | |
2014, a report found that the police response to domestic abuse was not | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
good enough and that the responses were inconsistent. An inspection in | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
2015 found some positive changes had taken place but there was still room | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
for improvement. That is why we are in this chamber today visiting the | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
issue again and I know the Minister and his response will give an idea | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
of how that improvement has taken place. | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
There has been a theme throughout, that everyone is particular to their | :24:20. | :24:31. | |
own person but nonetheless they do constitute the term of domestic | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
violence and it covers a multitude of sins. Each case should be treated | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
in an individual way and there must be a scheme in place that allows it | :24:41. | :24:49. | |
to happen. When many cases do not end up in court as the victim is | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
unwilling to testify and that happens in many of the cases that I | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
have in my office, they fall out, they drift apart, then back together | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
again and the difficulties continue with all the stories and apologies | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
that the partner makes towards the lady concerned. There are some that | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
do not find the strength to face their abuser and it is for them that | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
I stand today and ask how much more we can do for them. I understand | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
there has to be changes to the statue of limitations and that has | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
to be welcomed, but again what more can we do on that side? We need to | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
recognise that domestic violence is not against women and children. | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
Women's Aid have released their stats of the year before which paint | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
a picture of the different scenarios that they deal with everyday and | :25:45. | :25:52. | |
with this debate today would concur. The helpline which they run and they | :25:53. | :26:05. | |
received some 27,000 calls, the majority continue to be from women, | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
the majority are women by far. The percentage of male callers rose by | :26:11. | :26:17. | |
some 2.2%. There were 611 sexual violence calls on the line. | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
Sometimes men themselves also have to contact the organisation and we | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
want to put that focus into this debate. 262 calls came from foreign | :26:32. | :26:40. | |
nationals. 35 calls came from the LGBT community. 58% of women callers | :26:41. | :26:49. | |
disclosed mental health issues. 226 children were referred to Women's | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
Aid refugees. I would like to pay tribute to Women's Aid and what they | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
do in my constituency. They are marvellous, they are very responsive | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
and very able to, and I always encourage the Northern Ireland | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
assembly to give money there as well. I can understand there appears | :27:13. | :27:22. | |
to be an almost overwhelming task of creating a system which can help | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
different types of domestic violence, there is one thing that is | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
needed and that is the case of compassion. We need to ensure that | :27:30. | :27:37. | |
all responders understand that we cannot understand why some victim 's | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
go back to their abusers. They deserve and need no less help and | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
compassion than anyone else. People need to know there is a safe place | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
and help available any time and that we have a system in place that will | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
aid people in getting their lives together. Women's Aid, which is an | :27:54. | :28:01. | |
independent body, the housing, the police, social services and all the | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
organisations and charities that work together, a big thank you to | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
all of them. In conclusion, this is a big problem that is complex but is | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
something we must indeed in this House that once the change necessary | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
for those who need it most. We must do our best to make it better for | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
them and it is my belief the hard work must begin in this place today. | :28:29. | :28:37. | |
Thank you. I want to start off by congratulating my honourable friend | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
the member for Penistone and stocks bridge along with the chair of the | :28:43. | :28:50. | |
women and equality committee, the member for Basingstoke and all the | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
members who have together secured this vital debate today. I would | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
also like to thank the backbench business committee for forwarding | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
members time in the chamber to discuss this vital issue in the | :29:04. | :29:12. | |
chamber. Listening to today's discussion, we can all agree that | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
the contributions have been powerful, moving, thought-provoking | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
and well-informed. I also want to take this opportunity to pay tribute | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
as other members have done to Claire Throssell and thank her for all her | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
work with Women's Aid in trying to ensure that other mothers are | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
protected in a way which tragically Claire and her children were not. | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
The issues that were discussed today have been much in focus in recent | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
weeks and months as has been mentioned by my honourable friend | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
the member for Birmingham Yardley, the storyline in the archers has | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
dominated the news cycle in the last week and it is inspiring that a | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
charity appeal inspired by this radio show and that storyline has | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
raised over ?150,000 for the charity. I read this week the tragic | :30:10. | :30:17. | |
case of Mary Shipston whose estranged father murdered her before | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
taking his own life. She and her mother had fled a life of violence | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
and were living in a safe house. It was an act described by the serious | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
case review which examined what happened as to quote a spite | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
killing, cynically designed to take the child from her mother and leave | :30:39. | :30:46. | |
an indelible memory of Mary's death. Another high-profile case was the | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
case mentioned by the honourable member for Sutton and Sheen, the | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
case of Ellie Butler who was murdered by her father following her | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
return to her parents. These events are events which no mother, no | :31:01. | :31:08. | |
family should endure and it is important as my honourable friend | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
for Penistone and Stockbridge told the backbench business committee | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
when she applied for this debate that the voices of these women are | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
heard, and I want to give a special congratulations to my honourable | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
friend the member for Penistone and Stockbridge because she today in her | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
speech fulfilled what she promised, she made sure that the voices of | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
these women were heard and in fact she puts on Parliamentary record the | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
very words of clear that we heard earlier today. I want to | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
congratulate Women's Aid on publishing this urgent and important | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
work, 19 charges homicides 12 years on from a similar shocking report. | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
Much time may have passed since the publication of that report 12 years | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
ago and although progress has been made, in respect of domestic | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
violence and in respect of family courts, much more as we have heard | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
today needs to be done. That 2004 report influenced the landscape of | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
the family courts on its publication and there is every reason to hope | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
following the debate today that this latest report will have a big effect | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
also and as we have heard from my honourable friend the member for | :32:30. | :32:36. | |
Hove, there does need to be a transformation of our family courts. | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
The court system and the family courts need to be an arena for | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
justice not a weapon which those who have been wronged can seek to | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
inflict further pain on those who have been wronged. The case studies | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
described in the report are truly shocking. All the perpetrators are | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
fathers to the children they murdered and more in the context of | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
child contact whether informally or formally arranged between the | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
parties. The cases to which the Women's Aid report refer ten to show | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
a deeply, deeply concerning pattern in which each of the fathers | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
involved were actually known to agencies as perpetrators of domestic | :33:18. | :33:26. | |
abuse. The report makes clear that its findings show a culture of | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
contact to all costs has arisen unfortunately in our family courts | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
and yet as long ago as 2006, the then Lord Justice Wall said in | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
response to the first report from Women's Aid on this subject, and | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
these are his words, it is in my view high time that the family | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
justice system abandoned any reliance on the proposition that a | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
man can have a history of violence to the mother of his children but | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
nonetheless be a good father. It is against that background, against | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
that background that is particularly alarming that Women's Aid has found | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
that abuse of a mother by a partner or husband is still being viewed by | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
the justice system is somehow a separate issue from the child's | :34:19. | :34:26. | |
safety. Anyone reading this report would surely agree that a review is | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
fundamentally necessary, but as Shadow Justice Secretary I was | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
struck in particular by the barriers to ensuring that granting of child | :34:36. | :34:42. | |
contact is safe as identified by the report. Access to justice is now | :34:43. | :34:50. | |
access at all if it does not also include access to advice and access | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
to representation as my honourable friend the members for Sheffield has | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
mentioned by the way. The coalition government has inflicted large cuts | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
on the legal aid budget and private family law cases were no exception | :35:06. | :35:15. | |
to this damaging trend. Although the Government introduced interim | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
regulations for family legal aid earlier this year, the picture is | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
scarcely changed. Those seeking publicly funded legal representation | :35:23. | :35:29. | |
must provide evidence and the time limit for that evidence has been | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
extended from two years to five years, but many will be left | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
wondering why there is as we have heard today a time limit at all. It | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
may be more appropriate for an assessment of relevance to be made | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
rather than an arbitrary period of time. But it's the provision of | :35:46. | :35:53. | |
evidence itself which causes difficulty and this report makes | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
clear that much of the required evidence is either unavailable or | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
unattainable. Practitioner groups I have met with also report reluctance | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
by some professionals to put the required evidence in writing. Those | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
that do sometimes find their form returned because it is not in the | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
prescribed formats and the process begins yet again. At the time of the | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
legal aid sentencing and punishment of offenders act 2012, the | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
Government committed to a review of its effects within three to five | :36:29. | :36:36. | |
years. To date not only has a review not been published, no such review | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
has started. It is alarming that some 38% of women when not in a | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
position to obtain the necessary evidence to persuade the legal aid | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
agency that as a victims of domestic violence they should be eligible for | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
legal aid, and over a quarter of those women had no option other than | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
to represent themselves at court as litigants in person. That can mean | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
as my honourable friend the member for Great Grimsby has outlined being | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
cross-examined for by the perpetrators accused in court and | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
the stress of having the sole responsibility for navigating the | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
complex case law and legal processes. As my honourable friend | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
the member for Birmingham Yardley mentioned, in the criminal courts, | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
where a defendant has no legal representation, that defendant will | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
be prevented and quite right also from cross examining a complainant | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
who alleges domestic violence. Instead the court will appoint an | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
advocate to conduct cross-examination paid for by public | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
funds. If that is good enough in the can bus system, why is it not good | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
enough in the family court system? At her first justice committee | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
appearance last week, the new Justice Secretary stated that one of | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
her three objectives was to realise a justice system which works for | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
all, something with which we can all agree. If that is the case, the | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
Secretary of State must turn her mind rapidly to the experiences we | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
have heard today, the experiences of those in the family courts because | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
the clear evidence of this report is that it is not working for all. To | :38:27. | :38:33. | |
that end, I was disappointed to hear that the all party Parliamentary | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
group on domestic violence has received no response to date to its | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
report on domestic abuse, child contact and the family court and I | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
do want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of the | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
all-party Parliamentary group and its chair the member for Birmingham | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
Yardley. I hope that they knew Justice | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
Secretary will deem more. I hope she will take on the task of responding | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
directly to the work of the APPG and considering carefully the seven | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
recommendations that the eight PBG's report makes. As with the Women's | :39:14. | :39:22. | |
Aid report, it emphasises the need for better adherence, to practice | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
direction 12 J Wycherley as we've heard to protecting the child and | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
the parent with whom they are living and to ensure the best interests of | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
the child are elevated above other considerations when determining | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
child contacts. Combating violence against women and girls must be, as | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
my honourable friend, so eloquently outlined a priority for all parties. | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
Labour's general election manifesto committed to establishing a commit | :39:58. | :40:05. | |
up on sexual violence to influence priorities across all Government of | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
our apartments. We said we would publish a violence against women and | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
girls Bill and provide more stable central funding for women's refugees | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
and rape crisis centres. As my honourable friend mentioned today, | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
we do welcome the Government's change of position when it comes to | :40:22. | :40:29. | |
women's refuge and the changes to housing benefit but fundamentally, | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
the Government should heed this motion and the Government should | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
implement a review as soon as possible. I commend this motion to | :40:37. | :40:46. | |
the House. Thank you. I want not be taking interventions in an attempt | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
to try to get through all of the questions that have been asked in | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
this important debate so please forgive me and I do not at all of | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
them I will be writing to you. Let me begin thanking the honourable | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
member and other members or securing this debate. On a personal level, I | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
believe that the member or Penistone and Stockbridge is an impressive | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
member of Parliament and her core decency which was visibly display | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
today came through and I think that is why she is such a valued member | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
of this House. I recognise the strength of feeling on the subject | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
of domestic abuse and the importance honourable members from all sides | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
attach to addressing it. I think the more we talk about this issue be | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
better, I'm very grateful for the opportunity to discuss such a | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
pressing issue, not least because in clinical practice I have encountered | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
a number of cases of domestic violence will stop they have been | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
primarily women but I must say there are also men as well and I think | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
there should be mentioned. I do think it is important today that we | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
have contributed from both men and women. This is a problem that likes | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
our society and we are all responsible for sorting it out. -- | :42:03. | :42:11. | |
lights. As the prime is a clear last week, tackling such abuse is a | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
priority for the Government. This debate centres on an important | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
report published in January of this year by Women's Aid, the report | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
entitled 19 child homicides, calls on the Government to review the | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
treatment of expense of victims of domestic abuse in the family law | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
courts, it examines a number of serious case reviews published in | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
the ten years up to 2015, all involving children who were killed | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
by their fathers. 19 children in total. The fathers in question all | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
had access to their children through formal or informal contact | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
arrangements. At this point can I mention the story that the member | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
for Penistone Stockbridge vividly described, I gathered the mother | :42:54. | :43:01. | |
Claire is here, the story of the loss of Jack and Paul horrified as. | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
I am in awe of her courage, not just because she is here today but in an | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
attempt to find a positive outcome to such an appalling tragedy | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
deserves the respect of all. The report by Women's Aid makes for | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
harrowing reading. No child should ever die all live in such dreadful | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
circumstances and it is incumbent on all of us to consider whether more | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
can be done to prevent such tragedies. The Women's Aid report | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
underlines the need to brighter as the child's best interest in child | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
contacts cases involving domestic abuse and to make sure that the main | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
roads are properly considered. The law is clear on this. The family | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
court overriding duty is the welfare of the child. In March of this year, | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
the Government launched a new strategy on violence against women | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
and girls, we committed ?18 million of funding and set up a | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
comprehensive action plan. The Ministry of Justice is playing a | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
central role while there remains much work to be done, we have | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
already made progress. We are working closely with the Home Office | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
to protect victims, including the new offence of coercive control, new | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
stalking laws and domestic violence protection orders. This year we | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
allocated around ?68 million to police and crime commission to | :44:17. | :44:18. | |
support victims of crime, including victims of domestic abuse. Earlier | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
today, we announced plans to allow vulnerable, intimidated witnesses to | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
be cross examined earlier in the criminal progressed to digital | :44:30. | :44:31. | |
recording. As well as improving the quality of evidence provided by such | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
witnesses, they should make the extremes of giving evidence less | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
traumatic. This Government's work to improve the criminal justice | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
response to domestic abuse is also beginning to bear fruit. The Crown | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
Prosecution Service last week reported that number the prosecution | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
in convictions for domestic abuse are now the highest levels. More | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
victims of the injustice. We in the Ministry of Justice remain committed | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
to working with partners and with the CPS and the Home Office, in | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
particular to respond to domestic abuse. But our role does not end | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
there. The Ministry of Justice is acutely aware of the particular | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
responsibilities it has to support victims of domestic abuse going to | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
the family justice system. The issues at stake in family | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
proceedings are sensitive and often complex and the court decision can | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
have far reaching invitation for the individuals involved, particularly | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
children. Domestic abuse only exacerbate an already traumatic | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
situation. We have therefore taken a number of steps to make sure the | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
victims of domestic abuse who find themselves in the family justice | :45:36. | :45:37. | |
system have the support and production may need. We have | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
protected legal aid for individuals seeking protection from abusers, we | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
are investing in the courts take to improve the physical state of family | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
court and emotional support available to users. We have placed | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
renewed emphasis on training that those who work in the family justice | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
system. Where arrangements have been found wanting, we have taken action. | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
For example, when the Court of Appeal ruled earlier this year that | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
elements of the evidence required for making legal aid available to | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
victims of domestic abuse in private family cases were invalid, we change | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
the regulation as an interim measure. In parallel, we began work | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
to explore fully the issues at play in these cases. We are determined | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
that victims of domestic abuse should be able to access the legal | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
aid when they needed and we want to better understand the extremes of | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
victims in this situation is so that we can be sure we have workable | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
arrangements for the longer term. Over the summer we have been working | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
collaboratively with domestic abuse support groups, legal representative | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
bodies and colleagues across Government to gather information on | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
the legal aid evidence requirements. I for one welcome this collaborative | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
approach to the work and would like to see adopted on other issues. We | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
are not complacent. We know there is room for improvement and we are | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
working closely with the judiciary in particular to consider what | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
additional productions may be necessary for vulnerable victims and | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
witnesses in the family justice system. Another important report on | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
domestic abuse was recently published by the all-party | :47:13. | :47:14. | |
Parliamentary agreement. It highlighted a number of issues and | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
we are examining these carefully. I was struck in it by the unfavourable | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
comparison the APPG reports made between the treatment of domestic | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
abuse in the family justice system and that of the criminal justice | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
system which has done a great deal in recent years to develop a | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
coherent systemwide response to the matter. I think it is fair to say | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
that the family system can learn valuable lessons to criminal justice | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
and the member has pointed out. In particular from the focus that the | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
criminal justice agencies are brought to developing the joined up | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
response which takes full account of the needs of the victim, the | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
Government agrees that it should never be a case of contact at all | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
costs. Judicial guidance issued by the President of the family division | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
of the High Court to judges, to family judges which is the practice | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
direction 12 J makes clear that the court should only make an order for | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
contact if it can be satisfied that the physical and emotional safety of | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
the child and the parent with whom the child is living can as far as | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
possible be secured before, during and after contact. As is the case | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
with the number of the issues raised in the two reports, compliance with | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
judicial guidance is probably the responsibility of the independent | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
judiciary. The most senior family judge, has asked a High Court George | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
June review the direction in light of the regulations made by Women's | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
Aid and the all-party parliament agreed. I will be meeting the | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
President later today and intent to raise this with him in person. I | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
would now like to respond specifically to some of point is | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
that they're made by honourable member stream because of this | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
discussion. We've heard from the members of Penistone, bellowing | :49:00. | :49:08. | |
Yardley, Great Grimsby, Hove, north Ayrshire, Sheffield, Glasgow | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
Central, Strangford. Each has made thoughtful and powerful | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
contributions. With regards to reports, I've seen both reports, I | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
have read them with interest and it was a difficult read. I can inform | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
the House that I will be meeting Polly, the chief executive of | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
Women's Aid on October the 17th when I look forward to discussing the | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
recommendations with her in person. The member for Birmingham also made | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
an important point about the lack of data on the number of litigants in | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
person, I agree that we currently have insufficient data in the family | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
justice system. I can assure the House that evidence -based policy is | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
at the heart of everything I'm going to do as a minister going forward. | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
With regards to vulnerable witnesses in family court, the member asked | :50:01. | :50:09. | |
about controlling behaviour and the understanding that of alcohol. The | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
law is clear. The definition of harm includes a child witnessing | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
violence. Battling falls controlling behaviour. We are working to | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
consider what the Badditional productions may be necessary. -- | :50:27. | :50:36. | |
additional. Responsibility for training rests with the college she | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
runs modules on domestic abuse, court staff receive training on | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
various aspects of domestic abuse. We are reviewing this and have shed | :50:45. | :50:46. | |
the training materials with the Women's Aid to assist a review. All | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
family court advisers must complete training. Finally, with reference to | :50:54. | :51:05. | |
the case that my honourable friend raised of Ellie Butler, we were all | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
is that I'm shocked by the this case. I and enabled to comment on | :51:12. | :51:19. | |
the case. In closing, let me thank the honourable members, I don't need | :51:20. | :51:27. | |
to be reminded of the impact of this on people in the last three months. | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
I have had two cases of a doctor as domestic violence and it is truly | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
shocking when you encounter women in the circumstances and I'm determined | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
to do everything that I can to improve our management of the cases | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
when they come to the criminal justice system but indeed actually | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
to try and get rid of this scourge that blight on society. I am | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
hopeful, particularly after Vista by that we can work across the House | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
and indeed beyond as we continue efforts to improve the way the | :51:57. | :51:59. | |
family justice system response to domestic abuse. Thank you. I would | :52:00. | :52:10. | |
like to thank the backbench business committee for having given us this | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
very important debate. I think it's said the House at the binders, I | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
think that that is what we have seen this afternoon. Biagi must have been | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
hurt but also the stories, the voices that needed to heard. Claire | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
is here today and I know how much this means to her. All of this means | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
nothing interweaves the effective change. The extent of the challenge | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
has been made clear to me this afternoon by a rather unpleasant | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
week sent to the honourable member for Birmingham Yardley and myself in | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
response to my honourable friend's comments about the high quality of | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
the debate this afternoon. The tweet said, man hating at its finest. Well | :52:51. | :52:58. | |
done. If that doesn't is on to make the changes necessary, to put | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
children first and family courts, nothing will. I thank the Minister | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
for his awful and considered response. But I would urge them to | :53:06. | :53:14. | |
act as quickly as reasonably possible to make the changes that we | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
know are necessary to stop children in the future dying at the hands of | :53:19. | :53:26. | |
their fathers. The question is as on the audio paper. As many as are of | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. The ayes have it. | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
The ayes have it. Point of order. I will not take up much time. An | :53:35. | :54:02. | |
hour ago, the Foreign Affairs Committee produced a report, on the | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
manufacturing of arms, accompanied by a press release, and often to see | :54:08. | :54:15. | |
is taking you read the press release and not the report. I want to make | :54:16. | :54:24. | |
it clear, I am grateful for your advice Mr Deputy Speaker. Majority | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
report, and minority report, the majority report was tabled by myself | :54:32. | :54:41. | |
and the member for North East Fife, nowhere in the press release is it | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
mentioned. I think it is misleading, to put out the press release and | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
suggest that this was supported by all the members of the committee, we | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
specifically supported the report from the business committee. This is | :54:59. | :55:06. | |
included in this report, clearly, the arms export licensing regime has | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
not worked. We recommend that the United Kingdom suspends licenses to | :55:14. | :55:20. | |
Saudi Arabia, capable of being used at Yemen, pending the results of the | :55:21. | :55:27. | |
information weight with -- led enquiries. And issue now for the | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
licenses. That should have been included in the press release. Can i | :55:32. | :55:46. | |
just say, The rate honourable lady knows that I have known the | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
restriction over the reports. But I am sure that all the newspapers and | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
media, well have taken notice of that, and I am sure it will be | :55:57. | :56:05. | |
highlighted, not a point for the chair but on the record. Thank you. | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
Following on from the concerns of my honourable friend, I am concerned | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
about the lack of information about the funding, to Yemen, how that has | :56:16. | :56:23. | |
been managed, can we not have a report? And when was the last time | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
any British diplomat visited Yemen? We're not getting proper reporting | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
back from what is happening with the funding. It is obviously not for me. | :56:33. | :56:41. | |
But that is on the record. I am sure that the leader of the house will | :56:42. | :56:49. | |
that take. It is not a matter for me, but it is certainly on the | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
record. Progress... We are now coming to the backbench motion. | :56:57. | :57:06. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I draw the attention of the house, to | :57:07. | :57:18. | |
my entry, I beg to move the motion on quantitative easing. The question | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
of restoring confidence, to stimulate lending and growth, was | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
understood. As QE was put into place... Commentators worried about | :57:32. | :57:40. | |
the risk to inflation, and my primary concern about the Bank of | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
England's programme was not that it could lead to some sort of | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
hyperinflation, but that it may not necessarily lead to an increase in | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
lending. That was the evidence from Japan, for a significant period | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
after the introduction, lending fell. And of course, that the | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
outcome has been mirrored here. M4, the value in January 2010, | :58:06. | :58:30. | |
?2,210 billion. A slight fall. The improbable fact is that lending | :58:31. | :58:38. | |
could have been lower without QE. But the inescapable fact, having | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
engaged with quantitative easing, it does seem that the asset purchase | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
scheme has predominantly enhanced the balance team, without an | :58:51. | :58:58. | |
increase in lending. We also understand the difference between QE | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
and printing money. QE should eventually be unwound. But the | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
mechanism of timing, unknown. The Bank of England now owns a quarter | :59:11. | :59:20. | |
of all extending government debt. When I saw the agreement for the | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
study, it was ahead of the Bank of England announcing more measures to | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
add to the QE programme, this believes it is a much-needed debate. | :59:28. | :59:35. | |
It is correct that after seven years of the programme, we take stock of | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
what has been achieved, and the interaction between monetary and | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
fiscal policy, to deliver confidence. With the measures | :59:43. | :59:48. | |
announced in August, the Bank of England has announced a programme of | :59:49. | :59:54. | |
445 billion. The desire to drive down these interest rates has seen | :59:55. | :00:07. | |
investors having increases in asset prices and a decline in yields. The | :00:08. | :00:15. | |
financial markets, FTSE 100 was at 300,000, 529, ahead of the launch. | :00:16. | :00:33. | |
Last night, the index closed on with a value representing 89%. The QE | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
programme has helped deliver an outcome, that those owning financial | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
and property assets have been doing well, this could be an unintended | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
consequence, but on the face of it, no positive impact on growth. As the | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
Prime Minister has said, monetary and in the form of these low | :00:55. | :01:04. | |
interest rates... I am grateful. The Bank of England reports indicate an | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
increase in growth as a result of QE after the financial crisis, it could | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
have had a positive impact on the level of inflation, and GDP growth. | :01:16. | :01:23. | |
Clearly, benefiting all of us. My contention would be, after the | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
limited reporting from the Bank of England, we need to have a more | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
detailed analysis. I accept, some limited impact on the economy, but | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
what I am going on to discuss, as I go through the speech, whether we | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
need to balance monetary measures, by taking fiscal measures, and it | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
has to be managing responsibilities, monetary and fiscal policies. That | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
is relevant to the point that my honourable friend has made. The | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
Prime Minister said monetary policy, super low interest rates, QE, has | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
helped those on the property ladder, at the expense of those who cannot | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
afford their own home. On this occasion, I agree with the Prime | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
Minister but I do not intend to make a habit of that. You have to get a | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
response from the government, that recognises fiscal measures must be | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
taken as part of a balanced approach, for sustainable growth. If | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
we contrast the growth, and financial wealth, real wage growth | :02:38. | :02:48. | |
has stagnated. We know from analysis published, that QE, has boosted | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
asset prices, and the top 5% on those assets. The analysis at that | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
time estimated that the top 5% of households have become richer to the | :03:00. | :03:10. | |
tune of ?120,000, on average. QE, it has exasperated wealth disparity | :03:11. | :03:20. | |
between rich and poor. I thank my honourable friend. I have to agree | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
with elements of what he has said, the interest rates, QE, in place for | :03:26. | :03:35. | |
a hell of a long time. Distorting effect. But would he not recognise, | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
2009, entering those emergency interest rates, nobody would have | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
envisaged that this far down the line, the British economy, and more | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
importantly, the world economy, it would be difficult for us to reason | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
was interest rates. The policy at the time, was entirely acceptable | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
and understandable. But it has been recognisable, for so long. I find | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
myself agreeing. As I have said, we recognise that this was the | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
necessary state that was taken in 2009. I am grateful that the | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
backbench business committee has granted this debate. I think it is | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
important. We have two reflect on the policies that have been taken, | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
how they can be balanced by other measures. Indeed, we need to have | :04:28. | :04:36. | |
that detailed analysis of what has happened, to the 445 billion, | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
invested in the programme, and we have no idea at this stage given the | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
economic circumstances if we're going to see the beginning of the | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
unwinding of that. It could be in the future. We need to reflect on | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
the experiences that I have discussed, be prepared to consider | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
what we need to change from monetary and fiscal policy, in order to | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
foster inclusiveness. We have not had these circumstances, enhancing | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
business confidence, it is necessary to drive up productivity, and | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
enhance living standards. Post Brexit... Much has been talked about | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
those who have been left behind, and we have to have an examination of | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
QE, and alternative measures. We have the situation, the disconnect | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
between growth and financial assets, and the way the economy. Also, Mr | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
Deputy Speaker, the issue of the impact on savers, and pension | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
savings. The difficulty experienced by the BHS scheme, just an example | :05:46. | :05:57. | |
of the risks involved. Today, about 11 million citizens in the United | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
Kingdom, across 6000 pension schemes. It has been suggested that | :06:03. | :06:10. | |
the combined deficit was around 384 billion. Around 600 schemes in | :06:11. | :06:22. | |
danger zones, in terms of meeting objectives. The impact of QE, | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
particularly from declining yield... Let me put that into context. The | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
movement equates to approximately the benefit pension scheme deficit, | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
?120 billion. When we consider that the ten | :06:44. | :06:54. | |
year government bond yield was 3.1% in March 2009, .5% today... You can | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
see the challenges faced. We have invested 445 billion, undermining in | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
the process the attraction of savings, and pension savings. It is | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
not just the impact on future income streams, but also the decline, of | :07:14. | :07:21. | |
considerable concern. This was identified by the Treasury Select | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
Committee report, 2012, stating that this achieved through QE has the | :07:27. | :07:35. | |
redistribution or six, analysing Sievers, -- penalising savers. We | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
need to reflect on those statements, adapt the approach. It has also been | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
stated that QE has exasperated wealth inequality. I am most | :07:47. | :07:57. | |
grateful. I wonder if he saw the Telegraph, in September, the | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
editorial said that they had the pension scandal at the Bank of | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
England, going through the reality that senior staff have been given | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
massive increases, in order to fight justice. What is good for the goose, | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
Bank of England, not good for the boss. Would he agree that the Bank | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
of England is in danger of being accused of hypocrisy? I think my | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
honourable friend makes a good point. I have seen the headlines. | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
And when we talk about the inequality, trying to paint that | :08:29. | :08:36. | |
picture, that is exactly the point. Those at the top, of society, seen | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
as benefiting from the QE programme, benefiting the pension schemes, | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
while ordinary workers have been penalised. That is absolutely right. | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
One recognises the disconnect in society. | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
One of the problems that is caused if the inflation in house prices. I | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
will say a little bit more about that in a minute. But just in | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
response to what the honourable gentleman on the other side of the | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
House said, is it also the case that the Bank of England is still | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
subsidising the mortgages of its staff and helping them at this very | :09:19. | :09:27. | |
steep property ladder? I'm grateful for the honourable member for the | :09:28. | :09:29. | |
intubation. I don't have knowledge on that case. It is not helpful that | :09:30. | :09:38. | |
that is taking place. I do not talk about house prices when the increase | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
financial market. Quantitive easing has led to an increase in property | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
prices and we know the problem is suffering in the cell piece of | :09:48. | :09:49. | |
England as a consequence of that. And an intended consequence is that | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
I've been referring to. -- unintended. I hope the Minister will | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
reflect on all of this and will tell us how the Government can bring | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
forward measures that will address specifically the issue of rising | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
wealth inequality which I think concerns members right across the | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
House. While I recognise the health of... The Treasury has been absent | :10:12. | :10:21. | |
to grow the economy and counter the negative impact of Brexit. You | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
cannot do both monetary and fiscal policy, they have to work in tandem. | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
There is a third challenge in encouraging companies to invest, we | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
are seeing a great opportunity in the wider economy. The response of | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
the day that we all have disagreed these circumstances but there is a | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
realisation of a great opportunity. I appreciate that the logical design | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
of the previous Chancellor of achieving a fiscal surplus in the | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
current Parliament has been thankfully abandoned. Whilst we | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
should all share the desire to cut the deficit from that, it is the | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
question of how to get that requires much deeper debate. I am pleased | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
that there are no voices across the chamber that seemed to recognise | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
that we have to take a full physical as well as monetary responsibility | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
is to strengthen quantity and grow. We have to consider in particular | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
infrastructure investment as a counterpart to monetary measures to | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
improve efficiency and create an environment that will encourage | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
business investment that will allow us to improve productivity to | :11:22. | :11:23. | |
competitors and as a result living standards. It is about making sure | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
that we move away from the situation, the Kiwi has been | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
beneficial for those owning financial assets to wonder why the | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
society sees a wider benefit to approach. My part in the SNP has | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
advocated for the end and reversal of the Tory Government's programmer | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
this Daugherty and harmed our social fabric and use fiscal tools to | :11:47. | :11:54. | |
create a balanced economy. That would've brought an inclusive | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
economy through a modest investment and infrastructure as well as vital | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
public services. This balanced approach will return the public | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
finances to a sustainable stop or continue to invest. It would boost | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
investment, it will halt the story the programme. If we oversee and | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
increase spending on public spending by a modest 0.5% in real terms | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
between 2016, 2070, this would release over 150 billion during this | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
period for investment in public services was ensuring that public | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
sector debt and borrowing ball over the current Parliament. In doing so, | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
this will stipulate GDP growth, support wage growth and tax | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
receipts. By transforming productivity and innovation, it will | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
act as a major signal of confidence in our economy. It. The cutbacks | :12:46. | :12:54. | |
that this mature chubby effect -- disproportionately affect. Revise | :12:55. | :13:03. | |
growth predictions, down signalling to add polythene makers to act in | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
policy responses to tackle the underlying challenges. It called for | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
advanced economies to strengthening growth by engaging instructional | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
reforms, yes, continued monetary policy accommodation and fiscal | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
support in the form of growth, only think fiscal policies,. Furthermore, | :13:22. | :13:33. | |
in an article the IMF revisited the effectiveness of this Daugherty and | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
concluded that these policies increased and jeopardise long-term | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
economic growth. In its latest economic outgrown, they encourage | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
policymakers around the world to break out of the blue growth trap | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
and deliver economic prosperity by deploying fiscal policy more | :13:55. | :13:56. | |
extensively as well as taking advantage of the low interest rate | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
environment created by monetary policy. It suggested the use of | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
structural policy but also urged governments to interfere at the | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
labour market skills and a in infrastructure that deliver | :14:11. | :14:12. | |
long-term productivity and economic growth. Even in the US, it has an | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
impressing other T20 countries for more fiscal policy activism to put | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
growth ahead of austerity. Ahead of the September 20 secretary, | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
consultants had formed around the US position on the need for countries | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
to use all policy tools, including monetary, fiscal structural reforms. | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, the UK Government's failure to rebalance | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
the economy following the financial crisis has left a toxic legacy as | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
stagnating growth. The SMP understood the use of quantitative | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
easing by the Bank of England response to the financial crash and | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
as a temporary measure to regain stability. However, the | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
effectiveness of monetary policy has been gravely undermined by the | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
austerity agenda and now leaves a legacy of unintended consequences | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
that put in an President burden on future generations. The Bank of | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
England should now evaluate the effectiveness of the QE programme | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
and the wider consequences after the decision to leave the UK. The | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
garment should reflect on that and put in place effective fiscal | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
measures. The pressure is on the order paper. I congratulate him for | :15:31. | :15:39. | |
support during the debate. Like him, I am pleased to agree with my right | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
honourable friend the Prime Minister's comment on monetary | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
policy. I hope to explore more with my right honourable friend how we go | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
forwards. I think at this point I should pay tribute to money week Tim | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
Price, the journalist writing in that magazine has brought forward a | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
petition on the Parliamentary website against QE, so far securing | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
4700 signatures plus and I hope out by the end of this debate with the | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
enormous ornaments it is bound to draw it we might see a few more | :16:10. | :16:19. | |
signatures. -- 400,000 700. We can see from attendance in the chamber | :16:20. | :16:21. | |
it is not well understood and while the public feel the effects of it | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
vary widely, actually represent is perhaps not as well-equipped to | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
participate in debates on the subject as they might be. I would | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
like to talk about the two areas mentioned in the motion. First the | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
effects of QE and second the future of policy. It might be helpful first | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
to turn to page for the last inflation report that said up | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
channels through these monetary policies work. The first is bringing | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
forward spending by lowering the real interest rate, the next is | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
blurring the debt servicing calls, the cash flow Channel, the further | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
lowering funding cuts, the credit Channel and then the wealth Channel | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
is mentioned, selling assets to the bank to reinvest the money received | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
in other assets therefore supporting asset profits. An exchange-rate that | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
there's consideration when our exchange rate has just dropped. But | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
as an object of bank policy. There is confidence and expectations | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
Channel which demonstrates the Government and the bank the MPC is | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
aware of the importance of their role in the markets in creating | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
expectations and the effect that it has the real economy. The honourable | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
gentlemen made some very good point on wealth inequality, but I would | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
like to dwell on festival. Back in the Bank of England did bring | :17:41. | :17:49. | |
forward a report and they write that vision of a range of assets | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
purchases, they have boosted the value of households. Holdings are | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
heavily skewed with the top 5% of households holding 40% of these | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
assets. In the last inflation report with the MPC, the Treasury Select | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
Committee picked up on this issue of wealth inequality and the extent to | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
which it is promoted by eye with the easy money but QE specifically. I | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
notice it is becoming an increasing focus for the committee, I'm | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
grateful to see the honourable lady who served with me on the committee | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
here and I look forward to hearing what she has to say. We are | :18:25. | :18:26. | |
converging on all sides of the House on a genuine concern that it may we | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
be that the processes of the market are being undermined in the justice | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
by the current set of monetary policies. Now if anything QE has an | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
upside. Because it has made explicit a phenomenon that has been going on | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
for a long time. The honourable gentleman manage the quantities of | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
M4 outstanding. If one goes back a bit further, M4 outstanding was | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
about ?700 billion in 1997. When you just bought the quantity of M4 | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
outstanding, you see an allocated rush and exhilarating rush to the | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
quantity of M4 outstanding. That we seem to be getting off when actually | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
there was enormous acceleration in the supply of credit leading to | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
crisis, brought the stagnation in the creation of money and it | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
categorically different economic environment which we find ourselves | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
today. Now this has gone on for a long time, the office for National | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
statistics and the House of Commons library published a paper looking at | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
price inflation back to 1750 which has an instructive chart which I | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
regret I can't put on the record. If one looks at a linear scale, the | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
money with all the flat until 1914, 1918, there was some inflation | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
during the wars and from 1971, the value of money just collapse. What | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
happened in 1971? The final link to gold was severed, the money became | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
inflationary and as ever, governance bird means of financing themselves | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
after tax and it has been that continuous expansion of credit, | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
chronic expansion of credit which has brought us to the position we | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
iron. The point I'm making is what we are now increasingly concerned | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
about the wealth equality effects comedy just QE, the point that since | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
1971, the money supply has been chronically expansionary and | :20:25. | :20:26. | |
therefore these effects have been going on throughout my lifetime. | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
When I look at what he wrote, I won't write the whole thing, he | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
wrote, I continuing process of inflation, governments can | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
confiscate secretly and an insert an important part of the wealth of | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
their citizens. By this method, they not only confiscate but they | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
confiscate arbitrarily. And while the process and publish as many, it | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
actually enriches. The sight of the rearrangement of riches not as | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
security but confidence in the equity of the existing distribution | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
of wealth. What a strange? Not very much. I'm not quitting some wild | :21:00. | :21:07. | |
eyed libertarian scholar. Is it therefore... Is it therefore any | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
wonder that I have given the right honourable gentlemen and advance | :21:14. | :21:15. | |
notice Buddhism any wonder we see reported in the Telegraph today a | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
speech by the Right Honourable gentleman in which he says we have | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
got to demand change. I am straight, I'm honest with people, I'm in | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
Marxist. This is a classic crisis of the economy. I've been waiting for | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
this for a generation will stop he said, for Christ sake, don't waste | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
it. Let's use it looks lean to be but this is based on greed and | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
profit does not work. I have covered this been before. If this is | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
capitalism, I'm not a catalyst. It is not capitalism when money under | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
the century plant, essentially directed policy of the committee of | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
wise men and women at the central bank creates this chronically fresh | :21:59. | :22:00. | |
environment which we are now beginning to recognise as real | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
wealth affects, that is not capitalism. If the outcome is | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
unjust, it is an just because of monetary arrangements, in my view. | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
There will be other factors but I think that is potentially a profound | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
cause of wealth inequality and injustice in the market economy. Of | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
course. I am very interested by this speech of my old friend. It has got | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
interesting. A lot of what in terms of the industry trajectory I totally | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
get. In terms of the seconds is based on 2009, I know I'm going back | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
a bit now, when QE was launched, in those circumstances as an monetary | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
as myself, with the honourable gentleman has supported it at that | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
stage? Would leave supported it initially at that point? He asked | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
the magnetic in question. One discovers on the website the | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
question was put down, would they have supported QE? And the consensus | :23:02. | :23:09. | |
of scholars was that in the second of the time, in all of the | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
circumstances of the time, that he would have supported it to prevent | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
the money supply collapsing. And the horrific humanitarian consequences | :23:20. | :23:21. | |
that that would have involved. But would he have supported it now to | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
try and stimulate the economy, creating patterns of economic | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
activity only sustained by that expansion in money supply? Sadly no. | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
I was not in Parliament at the time, I'm happy to tell my honourable | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
friend but I did not have to make that decision. We are where we are. | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
The second but I want to make is on this is that I believe policy is an | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
effective now, counter-productive. The governor told the Treasury | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
committee that we have extraordinary if not emergency monetary policy. | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
We've had it since 2009. I believe that if during that seven-year | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
period there were productive investments to be made which could | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
have been brought forward, pain induced by these low interest rates, | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
they would be now by May. I think we are into the law of diminishing | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
returns when it comes to productive investment. We run the risk of | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
inducing to engage in activities which will not have a return. In | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
other words, banks will make non-performing loans and that is the | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
problem afflicting the Italian banking system as we sit here. | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
The question, if we can sustain this recovery, and one of my advisers | :24:30. | :24:49. | |
wrote to me... Said remove base effects from the collapse of oil, | :24:50. | :24:51. | |
let core inflation continue, CPI, 4%. That is something I will be | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
asking the governor about. And it has been pointed out, that in the | :24:56. | :25:07. | |
three months, on the Bank of England preferred measure, it was an annual | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
rate of 14.7%. And when I raise this with the governor, I think it is far | :25:15. | :25:28. | |
starker. Currently growing by 14.7%, do we expect more or less inflation? | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
But when that was put to the governor, the answer moved away from | :25:34. | :25:41. | |
the problem. I would encourage you to look at exactly what he said. I | :25:42. | :25:50. | |
give way. I have to say I am enjoying listening to these | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
contributions. Given the case that he has been outlining, the bubble in | :25:55. | :26:03. | |
financial and property assets, what would he be doing about that today? | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
I certainly agree. The Bank of England have said that they have | :26:10. | :26:19. | |
deliberately enhanced the bubble, and if you look for that period, | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
from 1997, two 2010, the regional distribution then you have | :26:25. | :26:32. | |
correlation between the regional distribution, and the distribution | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
of those changes, correlates. London and the south-east, rocket away | :26:39. | :26:47. | |
earlier, the north east, Scotland, increasing slowly as money spreads. | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
I think it is a good case, that it has a profound effect, not on | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
particular assets, but regional distribution. It is something that | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
the bank should consider in those reports. It is not in my remit to | :27:03. | :27:17. | |
produce research. The next point, this is of the liberal policy of | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
manipulating asset prices. Disrupting markets. That means, the | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
misallocation of capital. The governor made a speech at New York, | :27:30. | :27:38. | |
I have tried to raise this with him, but he has been good at moving the | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
subject. He talked about criticisms of inflation, first was price | :27:44. | :27:53. | |
stability does not guarantee market stability. And he said that | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
inflation targeting can feed financial vulnerabilities, | :27:58. | :28:05. | |
especially in the presence of the Austrian perspective, excess money | :28:06. | :28:13. | |
resulting in misallocation of capital. These imbalances eventually | :28:14. | :28:22. | |
implode. It cannot be said, the governor has been on were -- unaware | :28:23. | :28:31. | |
of the Austrian School of economics, telling us that the money creation | :28:32. | :28:38. | |
has structural defects. I was going to challenge the bank, to include in | :28:39. | :28:46. | |
the report, this, demonstrated was not aware but the governor has said | :28:47. | :28:54. | |
that they are aware. They have to show in the report, not only are the | :28:55. | :29:03. | |
aware, but using other instruments, they can do with the structural | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
consequences. I think that is one of the big questions. The structural | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
consequences, can be deal with, using other instruments. I am | :29:15. | :29:22. | |
absolutely convinced they cannot", worse crisis later than 2008. I | :29:23. | :29:31. | |
sense that Mr Deputy Speaker wants me to wrap up. This has gone from an | :29:32. | :29:38. | |
exercise of seating the financial system, to kicking the can down the | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
road? How is this going to develop? I think we're to go to negative | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
rates, banning cash, helicopter money. And only the governor, would | :29:49. | :29:57. | |
rule out helicopter money. It is encouraging the misguided belief | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
that if only be printed money, we would have justice. This naive | :30:02. | :30:10. | |
inflation is mad. Thank you. We have got to get to the point, when we | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
escape from these policies, one of three mechanisms, self-sustaining | :30:17. | :30:27. | |
recovery, I hope that. Or... The next phase is going to be massive | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
inflation, or the abandonment of these easy monetary policies. At | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
which point, the correction. The question for society, and us, and | :30:39. | :30:51. | |
monetary economists, is going to be what went wrong? Will people blame | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
the free market? It could lead to impoverishment. Or central planning? | :30:57. | :31:05. | |
By the Central banks? It has deliberately mislead treated the | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
economy. And dropped us into this profound crisis. I welcome this | :31:10. | :31:17. | |
motion. I will support it. And I congratulate the honourable | :31:18. | :31:24. | |
gentleman. I wish to congratulate the honourable gentleman on securing | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
this important debate. I am pleased to follow the honourable gentleman, | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
I have discussed these issues. It seems to me, the problem of | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
inequality is one of the most profound facing the country. It is | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
getting worse. The problem, enhancing differences between | :31:49. | :31:55. | |
different social groups, dividing families because of the generational | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
gaps, and dividing the country geographically. Significant regional | :32:01. | :32:10. | |
inequalities. To learn that the Bank of England's QE, expanding these | :32:11. | :32:24. | |
gaps between rich and poor is alarming, the bank has undertook its | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
own analysis of the impact of the QE in 2012. I think what they found was | :32:28. | :32:36. | |
that the top 5% had seen an increase, of 180 5000. And that the | :32:37. | :32:44. | |
bottom 50% got no increase in wealth. No assets. I am not critical | :32:45. | :32:59. | |
of QE in principle, not critical of the package which the Bank of | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
England unveiled in the summer. That is because I think Brexit has been a | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
shock to the economy and we need to take action, to stabilise. And avert | :33:13. | :33:22. | |
reductions in growth. Nevertheless, I am not happy that the bank has | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
demonstrated that the way they are doing this QE, it is the best. I | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
think it is worthwhile to examine this, in more detail. To give | :33:34. | :33:43. | |
context to this increase, that asset holdings of the top 5%, the | :33:44. | :33:50. | |
considerable part being the housing market, it is worth of zero -- | :33:51. | :34:02. | |
observing, the average house price is ?212,000. The top 5% have been | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
given enough money, either Bank of England to buy another house. The | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer, were he to stand up and say that he was | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
giving 185,000, to the richest people in this country, I think even | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
members on the government benches would be alarmed, concerned, even | :34:25. | :34:32. | |
slightly rebellious. But because it has been done by the Bank of | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
England, hidden, we are not seen the same level of concern. But we need | :34:40. | :34:54. | |
to. Moreover... It is a problem when the ratio of average earnings to | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
house prices is 8:1. Bus is putting the possibility of homeownership | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
beyond many millions of people in this country. It is five home or | :35:04. | :35:13. | |
Russia has been fallen, -- why home ownership has been falling. We are | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
not saying this, and QE has been making the situation was. -- worse. | :35:21. | :35:29. | |
I understand the point that she has been making, absolutely. I | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
appreciate the comments. I would not wish any message, to go from this | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
house to the broader audience, that was the intended aspect of the | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
policy. When QE was introduced by the last Labour administration, it | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
was introduced with admirable intentions, to ensure that GDP | :35:51. | :36:01. | |
growth improved, I would not want that to be seen as the intention. | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
What the honourable gentleman has said is absolutely fair. I agree. I | :36:08. | :36:16. | |
would not say that Labour QE was good, Tory bad, but as I said | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
initially, I do not think it should have been another package this | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
summer. My questions, about the way they do it. We have quizzed the Bank | :36:31. | :36:44. | |
of England, on three occasions. The first time... It was said that | :36:45. | :36:54. | |
taking account of distribution would be political. But we have had the | :36:55. | :37:02. | |
more recent questioning of them and it seems that different parts of the | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
bank have said different things. I think it would be unfair to say they | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
speak with four tongues, but we have the chief economist saying monetary | :37:17. | :37:25. | |
policy cannot close fault lines, for example regional, generational gaps, | :37:26. | :37:36. | |
cannot set different interest rates. He said that the United Kingdom | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
recovery has been for the few rather than many. This seems to be the | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
criticism of the unequal society. He seems to be saying this is not good | :37:47. | :37:56. | |
socially, economic life. But when we questioned John Cunliff, he said | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
that they would only point out that they have tools they have. It is an | :38:03. | :38:10. | |
helpful, and unhelpful approach. I think it is stolen, the bank do not | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
want to look at different ways of doing QE, I do not think they have | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
been sufficiently imaginative. In January, I went to Frankfurt, to | :38:21. | :38:28. | |
visit the ECB, asking them about QE, they do it differently. Because the | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
infrastructure, financial infrastructure is different. For | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
example, they do not just buy government bonds, they buy bonds in | :38:42. | :38:51. | |
KFW, the German and French infrastructure. And they have a | :38:52. | :39:02. | |
special strand, hoping to get more money into the SME sector. I do not | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
accept when the banks have said that they have the tools that they have, | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
nothing different that they can do. I would commend to them some work | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
that has been done on this, by the New Economics Foundation. It seems | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
to me, that the bank could be... Buying investment in housing | :39:20. | :39:33. | |
associations, for example. That in fact would be much better way of | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
dealing with the housing crisis we have and giving a lot of money to | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
rich people thereby pulling up property prices and I do not think | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
that the Bank of England have got a very good understanding of the | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
housing market. We have quit this on this as well. For example, the | :39:50. | :39:57. | |
governor said last week, that housing finance in this economy is | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
quite sophisticated. I do not think I would use the word sophisticated, | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
I think it is quite dysfunctional. Because... Because what we are | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
seeing at the moment is more and more money going into people | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
exchanging properties, not more and more money going into more building | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
which is actually what we really need and which would actually make a | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
difference to the housing crisis that we have. So I really hope that | :40:25. | :40:36. | |
the Bank of England will not only, as the honourable gentleman | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
suggested in his motion, analyse what they were doing better, and | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
they did commit to us that they were come back in September 20 18th with | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
a renewed analysis of what the impact on the assets and the wealth | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
distribution is going to be from this further round of QE. I'm very | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
grateful. Can I ask the honourable member to clarify that the Bank of | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
England have said they will come back in September 2018? I hope I am | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
wrong that they will come back before that because that would | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
suggest there is a complacency and a lack of desire to actually analyse | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
the situation and give us the information that I think the House | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
should be demanding problem. Well, it is probably my fault that they | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
said September 2018 because that is what I asked them for. The reason I | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
I asked them that that, we could ask them something earlier, you know, we | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
could ask them to something here and now that obviously the new package | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
was only announced in August so the impact of the new package would be | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
felt until we come to somewhere down the tracks. So there is no point in | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
trying to analyse the new package by Christmas because we won't see it. | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
That was my thinking. In addition to having a better understanding of all | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
the effects of their QE programme, I think they need to look at what | :42:01. | :42:08. | |
other central banks, including the ECB do. I think there could be so | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
useful levels for them and I think we might... -- lessons. I think if | :42:12. | :42:20. | |
we tweak it a bit, we could get better effects. I think they've got | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
a bit of a blind spot when they come to this issue of distribution. When | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
we about their purchase of corporate bonds, they they said they would | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
distribution blind so in other words, they wanted to be completely | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
neutral and not take a position that when we asked them about the | :42:38. | :42:46. | |
distribution of wealth among households, they took a | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
completely... They seemed to be confused. The politically neutral | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
with not taking a view on the significance of distribution. This, | :42:57. | :43:04. | |
I think it's a mistake, I also think that if we are piling lots of money | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
towards richer and richer people, the monetary impact is likely to be | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
much less because the propensity to consume the wealthy is more than the | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
propensity of people on the incomes. They are not even doing it in the | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
most effective way. They challenged whether or not, I will be to the | :43:23. | :43:32. | |
House what they said. -- read. The term and made them put a little | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
earlier in the hearing about accountability. The bank being | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
involved in decisions that were the province of politicians or some | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
might think would be the province of politicians. The tools we have are | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
not perfect. However, we have a clear objective which Parliament has | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
given us and we have certain tools to implement it. It does have | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
distribution all effects but if we were to decide what the distribution | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
Fx should be, we would be strained even further into areas that are | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
really the province of elected politicians. Now, I think that is a | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
fundamental misapprehension because the honourable gentleman, I can't | :44:12. | :44:19. | |
remember which constituency... He pointed out that at the moment at | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
which QE was embarked on in 2009, it was done to speed up growth and with | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
these distributional impacts in mind. However, it is now, now we | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
know that it is producing these wealth effects, it is now | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
disingenuous to be ignoring them. So it seems to me that that is the | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
position they are trying to take up and we really need to push back and | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
I'm very grateful that the honourable gentleman has given us | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
the opportunity to do that in the House this afternoon. It with some | :44:53. | :45:00. | |
inevitable trepidation that I stand up to speak in this debate when I | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
hear the eloquence and the experience of those who've gone | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
before me not least the experience of our modest crofter from sky. -- | :45:11. | :45:25. | |
Skye. But with his great evergreens with every contribution that Desmond | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
made this afternoon to what inevitably I think is one of the | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
most important debates I have taken part in. And one of the most awful | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
debates but while others can wax eloquent given their experience in | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
the financial sector over many years, but distinguished careers, I | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
come to this perhaps trying to give voice to some others who don't have | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
that background. I think the ordinary person in the street would | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
recognise that we live in troubled times where there is increased | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
uncertainty in where the stability in certain things in the past seems | :46:05. | :46:11. | |
to blame past. Who can have semen of for example at the outset of QE that | :46:12. | :46:19. | |
to date we would be experiencing in many economies low levels of | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
business investment, collapsing prospects for pensions, near | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
negative interest rates, penalising savers, a huge increase as the | :46:29. | :46:36. | |
honourable member has indicated in wealth inequality and something I | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
would like to add into the equation and what is likely to be one of the | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
effects of this that we are likely to cast an eye over and I think it | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
is perhaps we need to recognise too that the types of political | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
instability we are seeing, the types of people feeling that they are | :46:57. | :46:59. | |
disenfranchised, but they have no voice. But they are losing hope. | :47:00. | :47:06. | |
That to me is one of the profound is an political consequences that | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
deserves to be considered. And of course the result but we are facing | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
today, it was not supposed to be like this. There comes a time where | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
it may be wise to cast a critical eye over what seemed to most people, | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
myself included, and entirely logical response to the crisis some | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
years ago. I think it is good that people are able to reflect and | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
although it comes hard for many politicians, it is maybe good to | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
when we are modest enough to recognise that we do not always get | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
it right and we too need to learn from experience. For example, the | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
Government's economic plan, I think for many people in recent years | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
you'll that it has been turning blind to some of the consequences of | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
QE and that is seen in the poverty in many cases of the type of fiscal | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
response to aid those who are not benefiting from the increasing | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
wealth. So the Treasury needs to think about doing more, getting a | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
better balance between fiscal response and military response. The | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
time is surely right for them to mount a rigorous and open appraisal | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
of the balance between monetary policy and fiscal measures. And | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
whether, including the bank, looking at whether each of the rounds of QE | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
have had the desired effect. So let us recall, I may not have worked at | :48:41. | :48:48. | |
any time in a bank, the only times I go into the bank is when I receive | :48:49. | :48:58. | |
phone calls from them. But I do in the past life, used to read quite a | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
lot. Like many of you, everyone attending this debate will recall | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
that it was actually back in 1969 in the paper by Milton Friedman | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
entitled the Ottoman quantity of money that the idea we know today as | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
QE was created. -- Ottoman. To create a wealth affect that was | :49:18. | :49:34. | |
no longer possible through the conventional interest rate policy of | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
the central bank. Friedman's notion of quantity easing was the asset | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
prices would be boosted vast leading to an increase in confidence and | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
spending through the wealth affect, in turn economic activity would be | :49:51. | :50:00. | |
given a boost. But even in my recent times, and monitors who is written | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
on the development and monetary policy, and the history of the | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
banking in the US has questioned the accuracy of QE, arguing that it is | :50:09. | :50:20. | |
not led to what Friedman expected. -- tarmac. It has not transpired as | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
it was hoped. Central bankers have seen to date to be rather content to | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
the inflated asset prices but who speaks for the millions of savers | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
around the world? Who speaks for the ordinary man and women who have paid | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
the price of banking failure? Where was the UK Government when our | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
economy still take diversified balance in the aftermath of the | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
global financial crisis? Where were the necessary fiscal measures when | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
it transpired that people, the relatively poor were paying the | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
price for the mistakes of the wealthy? The SNP and others | :51:04. | :51:11. | |
understood the use of quantitative easing by the Bank of England as a | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
response to the crisis of 2008 as a temporary measure to help regain | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
stability. How long I ask is temporary? The effects of monetary | :51:23. | :51:29. | |
policy have to some extent I would argue and agreeing with my | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
honourable friend, the crofter, have been undermined by a great extent by | :51:34. | :51:42. | |
the austerity agenda, now leaving a legacy of unintended consequences | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
that had an unprecedented burden on future generations. Broadly | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
speaking, the policies being followed by central banks around the | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
world benefit a relatively narrow group of people. Rich individuals | :51:55. | :52:02. | |
and investment banks but few others. It's the unintended, the unintended | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
consequences of QE that must now be the focus of policymakers. As my | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
friend wrote to me Tim Walker a few days ago, he said, I great. If they | :52:16. | :52:28. | |
were here, the Bank of England, I suspect they would say everyone | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
benefited from the reality there would've been our worst recession if | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
they have not have acted. I wonder if he agrees with me that that | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
argument is wearing thin? Thank you. It looks as if you read the next | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
part of my speech. But it allows me to hate along and agree precisely | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
with what the honourable member has said. -- haste. Jim Walker, he put | :52:50. | :52:59. | |
part of the issue, interest rates through history have not only in the | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
cost of capital of the reward or threat, they have also been | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
signalling mechanism about the future and we now know that Syria | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
interest rates and QE tell business owners and entrepreneurs that there | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
is no growth of all little growth coming. They there for encourage | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
businesses to hold cash and be extremely cautious with investment | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
so the signalling mechanisms of the effect has had a different effect to | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
those predicted by Friedman, it is time again to review this. It would | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
be difficult to argue that QE has led therefore to the increasing | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
confidence and investment that was argued for it. And we can see other | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
consequences. Despite for example, eight years of near zero interest | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
rates, fixed capital formation is still 2.8% below the peak reached in | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
2007. Thus intervention and investment in the Bill economy has | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
not been boosted in the way that it was originally thought. And there is | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
a kind of similar the non-has been going on in other aspects of the | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
economy. The way in which it has afflicted households and the demand | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
side. Zero interest rates and asset passengers were supposed to convince | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
ordinary people to borrow and spend more immediately. | :54:23. | :54:30. | |
This song groups of ordinary people have reacted by saving more. To | :54:31. | :54:45. | |
provide for old age, the cannot rely on the curb of interest rates. | :54:46. | :54:53. | |
Instead of encouraging this group of people to spend, policies have | :54:54. | :55:06. | |
encouraged them to save more. Such savers understandably angry. They | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
have zero income, from the savings. I am not somebody, I have a | :55:12. | :55:20. | |
well-paid job, but I wonder what some people have been feeling, | :55:21. | :55:30. | |
having a Cash ISA, and before the crash it was common to get 6%. I | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
received a letter, pointing out that as from the 1st of December, the | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
interest rate was going to be reduced, to 0.1%. I think that the | :55:44. | :55:52. | |
time has come, to undertake the critical review. We have got to | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
finish at five o'clock. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. We need the small, | :56:00. | :56:10. | |
but enthusiastic band this afternoon, but we have been | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
undertaking this over the entire Western world, one of the most | :56:16. | :56:23. | |
extraordinary experiments. And if it goes wrong, it has devastating | :56:24. | :56:35. | |
consequences for the economy. We may find that it only delays the | :56:36. | :56:44. | |
explosion of the world economy. I hope that the Bank of England, and | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
regulating authorities are listening. This is not an attack on | :56:49. | :56:57. | |
the Bank of England, an emergency at 2008, quantitative easing was a | :56:58. | :57:07. | |
device, but as all members have said that this debate, we should be | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
looking at what else needs to be done. To give an analogy, to those | :57:12. | :57:27. | |
in need, a fire in the financial system, a high pressure hose, but | :57:28. | :57:36. | |
once that dampens down, you destroy everything. And that is what we are | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
dealing with. The unintended consequences, it is contributing to | :57:43. | :57:53. | |
global deflation, but we have had deflation, destroying the propensity | :57:54. | :58:02. | |
to save, and destroying bank profits. Has anybody looked at share | :58:03. | :58:13. | |
prices? We saved them, 2008, who is going to do something about this? | :58:14. | :58:29. | |
And in the last two rounds, of QE, started the process of competitive | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
devaluation. Going back to the 1930s. It is the responsibility of | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
everybody, once everybody does that, it is the 1930 situation. | :58:40. | :58:51. | |
Inevitably, political tensions, the Chinese government you can see what | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
is happening. The exchange rate competition is dangerous. And of | :58:57. | :59:13. | |
course, it has distorted asset prices. It is clear, that the | :59:14. | :59:23. | |
industrial investments could be the wrong ones, once those rebound. That | :59:24. | :59:34. | |
has made people nervous. I disagree gently, with my honourable friend, I | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
do not think it is a question of using QE for something else. If you | :59:41. | :59:46. | |
look at the recent announcement by the Bank of England, the 10 million | :59:47. | :59:54. | |
at the company keeper, it has chosen 300 bonds, investing 10 million over | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
the next 18 months. What was the choice? Companies that have the | :00:02. | :00:10. | |
material contribution, and let me read you some of the companies that | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
they are planning to put the money into. Apple, IBM, Pepsi. UPS. | :00:14. | :00:28. | |
Walmart. Funding Wall St. We are supposed to be pulling out of the | :00:29. | :00:44. | |
EU. BMW. Eon. Also, the champagne on the government lost. EDF. I agree | :00:45. | :00:55. | |
with honourable gentleman, that the bank definition of material | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
contribution, it is inadequate. And like him, I do not think it is | :01:00. | :01:12. | |
helpful to be investing into fizzy drinks, but Siemens have got the | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
fantastic development at East Yorkshire. I do not think he is | :01:16. | :01:26. | |
arguing against... I take the point. But what is underlining this, of | :01:27. | :01:43. | |
those 300 bonds, only six British manufacturing companies. It is | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
concentrated, on receiving the banking system, at the expense of | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
the manufacturing system. Briefly, what do we do next? I think we | :01:57. | :02:05. | |
should consider shifting the targets of the Bank of England, the | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
inflation target was wrong, it has no anchor. That has been raising | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
dangerous. I think we should be looking at nominal GDP targeting. | :02:20. | :02:32. | |
Having to look at automatic fiscal measures. Recession or boom. And | :02:33. | :02:42. | |
that is bringing us back to the question, of the fiscal | :02:43. | :02:44. | |
intervention. At some stage, we are going to have two unwind QE and that | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
has to be done in a controlled fashion. We have to look at the | :02:51. | :02:58. | |
timetable, for the unwind, that would help the markets to adjust. | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
But the danger, when we start to unwind, that the National rate of | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
interest has fallen, monetary is has been undermined by historical | :03:11. | :03:19. | |
generations. I think it would be unwise to unwind QE in the United | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
Kingdom, it has to be an international approach. That must | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
involve some of the subclass companies, Germany, using that in a | :03:30. | :03:38. | |
controlled fashion, to Gustav. And finally, I think in the Autumn | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
Statement, it is bound on the government, not to leave all the | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
behaviour listening to the Bank of England. The government should make | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
the intervention, in order to allow the transition. Thank you Mr Deputy | :03:52. | :04:02. | |
Speaker. I want to thank the honourable member, for bringing this | :04:03. | :04:13. | |
debate today. Enabling this, and I agree that discussing this in a | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
constructive fashion is a fair point. I agree with comments about | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
where inequality, that could be as far as we go, given that he is a | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
member of the Austrian School. And other honourable friend, always | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
insightful, talking about inequalities. And how QE could be | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
able to overcome them. The honourable member frock coat and is, | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
it was interesting as ever. Talking about inequalities, the balance | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
between fiscal and monetary. It has to be the focus of attention. And | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
finally, the member for East Lothian, talking about unintended | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
consequences of QE. In response to a question about confidence in QE the | :05:07. | :05:14. | |
former chairman of the Federal reserve half jokingly said it worked | :05:15. | :05:23. | |
in practice, but not in theory! But such an off the cuff comment... It | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
has some validity. That is the essence of the debate. Many will | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
remember the former Labour Chancellor, Alistair Darling talking | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
about QE, in 2009. Difficult times, resource for measures, and the | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Labour government had to consider all the potential responses, and | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
this was not an isolated action. Other countries had also taken | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
similar courses, to some degree. First round of QE resulted in guilt | :05:57. | :06:08. | |
purchases. And by the 2010 general election, 210 billion had been added | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
to the balance sheet. That remains. The prediction, about | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
hyperinflation, has been long forgotten. As I suggested, the | :06:17. | :06:25. | |
effects of this approach are still being debated. That has been brought | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
from the debate. But we should acknowledge the willingness of the | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
Labour government, to consider messages outside of the usual range. | :06:35. | :06:42. | |
The then Chancellor restarted the QE programme, giving authority to the | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
Bank of England, to print another 200 billion, for the purchase of | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
government bonds. However, unlike the QE process under the last Labour | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
government, the incarnation took place at the same time as the | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
Coalition Government, budgeting year after year for more and more deeper | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
cuts. As alluded to earlier, opinion remains divided about the | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
effectiveness of QE. But in order to judge that, we have two agree on | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
what the objectives were. Little consensus. If the goal was to | :07:19. | :07:30. | |
support nominal demand... It would seem to be agreement, inflation was | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
going to be lower without QE. Academic studies have consistently | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
said that inflation, five years ago, was 1% higher than it been without | :07:42. | :07:52. | |
QE. If the objective was to support GDP, little agreement. The Bank of | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
England has estimated economic role would have been 1.5% lower, of | :07:57. | :08:07. | |
studies have been ranging from close to zero, to 0.2 points. The debate | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
is good to continue for something, and this party is good to be closely | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
watching developments. Third. Another potential motivation for QE | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
was to increase the supply of credit. Still some considerable | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
uncertainty, about the extent of it achieving this objective. That has | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
been touched on the day. Last July, a post on the Bank of England blog | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
argued they had little evidence of QE boosting, little evidence to | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
suggest that QE boosted lending, through the bank lending channel. | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
Other opinions, available. But when we look at the success of QE, we | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
have to take into account the circumstances which it happened. | :08:56. | :09:05. | |
First round under conditions of fiscal policy, unfortunately the | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer between 2010 in 2016, adopted the fiscal | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
approach, at odds with almost every respected economist. Repeatedly | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
targeting the small deficit, even when these historic spirit image was | :09:20. | :09:21. | |
failed to achieve the stated aim. The previous Chancellor's record | :09:22. | :09:31. | |
will not be looked unfavourably by history. This party welcomed the | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
statements from the Prime Minister and her Chancellor, that they will | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
ignore the only remaining target of the latest chapter for budgetary | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
responsibility which lies in tatters after less than the year. A dawning | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
realisation that the surplus was unlikely to be achieved in 2020 may | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
have finally put an end to the failed economic approach that has | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
characterised the past six years. But we remain in the dark about what | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
will replace it. Britain is on hold while we wait for another two months | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
to find out even the most basic outline of the new Government's | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
fiscal policy. The Labour Party and millions more nationwide will hope | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
that the new Chancellor who sat at the Cabinet table throughout the | :10:17. | :10:18. | |
last administration does not repeat the same mistakes. Until the | :10:19. | :10:27. | |
Chancellor puts his, pull his finger out and finally outlines his plans, | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
the Bank of England has sole responsibility to ensure the economy | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
gets you the prospective uncertainty. The committee and is | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
the restarting of QE, including further purchases of Government | :10:43. | :10:44. | |
bonds but also ?10 billion of corporate bonds. This is busy too | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
early to say whether these actions will deliver against the criteria | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
mentioned earlier which my honourable friend but that too. | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
Indeed the statement of the NBC today in indicates that the bank | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
continues to keep a watchful eye on the effects of QE and particular and | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
macro economic environment. Last year, they began their own bills | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
beat QE programme. Similarly in many regards to their own. It also | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
includes bowls issued by institutions including the banks. -- | :11:20. | :11:27. | |
bonds. If we had a UK national investment bank then another | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
possible policy would be made available to the bag which was | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
alluded to by my honourable friend. -- bag. Will it would be made by the | :11:36. | :11:44. | |
MPC and my honourable friend the Shadow Chancellor pointed out that | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
the operation depended of the NPC is sacrosanct. This would include any | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
decisions about QE convention than a conventional or otherwise. There | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
must be a serious consideration of any distributional impacts. As early | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
as 2012, the Bank of England released a report of its own looking | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
at potential outcomes, various questions about the effect on | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
pension schemes, especially those already in deficit, that concludes | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
with the QE that has already taken place amounted to an increase of | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
wealth of ?10,000 per person if it was equally distributed. And of | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
course if you think that the benefits of this increase well have | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
been equally distributed. By increasing the value of assets, the | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
bank 's own research suggests that those already hold assets will have | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
benefited disproportionately. They note that the wealthiest 5% of the | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
abolition hold 40% of non-tension patterns. But no one should be | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
surprised by this. One of the aims of QE has too been pushed down | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
interest rates and to push up the value of shares and other assets, | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
including housing. Given that the ownership of shares and other | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
financial assets is concentrated on fairly amongst people we should not | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
be surprised at that particular issue. So as far as we are | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
concerned, we would welcome any further study to be conducted by the | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
Government all others into the effectiveness of monetary policy and | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
so we shall support this motion. Most importantly however, the | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
country needs a signal from the Chancellor about his future | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
intentions for fiscal policy, and waiting until November is not good | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
enough. We know that they're in assumptions about future interest | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
rates will keep down public borrowing that we need to know | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
whether the investment of the country urgently needs is finally on | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
the way or not. We cannot afford to rely on the Bank of England alone | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
take responsibility or managing the macroeconomy. Thank you. Let me | :13:46. | :13:58. | |
start by thanking the member, the honourable member for securing this | :13:59. | :14:06. | |
debate here today. The subject of quantitative easing is one that | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
attracts a wide range of opinions as they think has been convincingly | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
demonstrated here today in this chamber, if I say so today's | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
backbench business debate has been an example of something that is | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
small but perfectly formal. It has been an interesting debate. So this | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
is a topic of real importance to our economy and I know members from | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
across the House who will join me in thanking him for giving us all the | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
opportunity to discuss it. Let me begin by just setting up very | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
briefly the Bank of England's role in the monetary policy of this | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
country. And the first thing to stress is that the Bank of England | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
and its NPC is of course and rightly so independent from the Government. | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
This committee holds responsibility for setting monetary policy to meet | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
its clearly defined objectives as set out in law. And its primary | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
objective is to maintain price stability to find by the | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
Government's inflation target of 2% as measured under the CBI. The | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
committee are empowered to deploy unconventional policy measures, such | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
as quantitative easing when necessary in order to meet this | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
objective. And wherever such instrument IQs, the committed's | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
expected to work with the Government to make sure that appropriate | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
Government arrangements are in place to ensure that accountability. | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
Following the financial crisis in 2009, as members of this House were | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
fully aware, the bank or authorised to begin quantitative easing, | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
establishing an asset purchase facility to improve liquidity in | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
credit markets. This provided an additional two for which the banks | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
committee could adjust our monetary policy and in August of this year, | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
the MPC judge that in the absence of monetary stimulus there would be | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
undesirable volatility in output and employment and sustainable return of | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
inflation to the target in the medium term less likely. As a | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
result, the committed expanded its programme of acid publishers and | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
established a funding scheme to ensure banks passed on the benefits | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
of low interest rates to our businesses and to the public as a | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
whole. -- asset purchases. While the markets have responded polity, it | :16:34. | :16:35. | |
will take several months before we know how the economy has truly | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
responded. -- positively. As is always the case. I will need to pass | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
before it can be possible to make a full assessment of the latest round | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
of asset purchases and indeed with the Government and the MPC plays | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
enormous weight on the need to research the wider impacts of | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
monetary policy across our society. In line with our determination to | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
make sure this is a country that works for everyone, we want to make | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
sure that our businesses and the general public as a whole all | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
benefit from the lower pricing borrowing costs established to the | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
back's monetary policies. If I may move wanted some points raised. The | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
honourable member, the modest crofter from Skye also mentioned the | :17:21. | :17:29. | |
need for fiscal stimulus. Monetary policy tools on the first line of | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
defence against a macro economic shock and the Government will set | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
out its fiscal plans in the usual way, the usual way in the Autumn | :17:37. | :17:45. | |
Statement. He mentioned all suggested that growth in M4 in the | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
last eight years since QE came in, I have to say to him the relationship | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
between monetary aggregates and inflation is tenuous and that | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
monetary aggregates are not systematically targeted by central | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
banks. In order to target monetary aggregates, there would have to be a | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
direct relationship between the monetary supply and inflation and | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
for this to be the case, there would have to be a degree of stability in | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
the velocity of money, the speed of which money circulates around the | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
economy. I hope that is very clear. He mentioned the impact on savers, | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
building a strong economy is in everyone's interest and the MBC | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
remit makes clear ensuring price stability is the prerequisite for | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
economic prosperity. He mentioned pensions, the best possible | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
protection for pensions comes from strong sustainably employees and a | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
buoyant economy so it is important and action is taken to support that | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
economy. My right honourable friend from Wicken obviously speaks with | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
passion on this subject and it is obviously a matter that is of great | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
interest to him. I have looked at his excellent website where he | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
considers for instance among other matters whether the whole economic | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
system runs on funny money. He mentions wealth inequality and | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
wealth justice, these are two very important areas and the Governor of | :19:20. | :19:28. | |
the Bank of England has stated this package will ensure a better | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
economic outcome will all economic recovery it will boost incomes and | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
help all individuals, including those of the low side of the | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
economic this division, inequality is low and we should not forget | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
this, and it was in 2010. I would rather not give way because I am | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
trying to answer everyone's point that they have raised and I do not | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
have a lot of time because everyone has been so fulsome in their | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
contributions but she can speak to me afterwards if she wants to raise | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
an additional point. I would be really pleased to do that. The | :20:01. | :20:19. | |
honourable lady opposite mentioned that the goodies responsively at the | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
Embassy of the Bank of England and she questioned whether this was | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
right and questioned the accountability of the Bank of | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
England. I say to her that members of this House have the opportunity | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
to engage with the monetary policy committee through example, the | :20:37. | :20:38. | |
inflation report hearings in the Treasury Select Committee and that | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
the monetary policy committee are also accountable to the public, for | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
instance, in October, the governor and the deputy governor will spend | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
the day in the Midlands, meeting with a wide cross-section of society | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
to listen to the feedback and ideas of the public. I am very sure that | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
they would take that feedback and those ideas very seriously. The | :20:59. | :21:09. | |
member was very interesting perhaps, the most interesting points was the | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
description of the crofter from Skye that is clearly still is very | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
passionately about the subject and I think he made a useful contribution | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
to the debate. The member for East Lothian, I wanted to hear more about | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
the Autumn Statement, I'm very sad to tell him he won't be | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
disappointed, he will just have to wait and see as happens every year | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
in the normal manner. No matter who is the Government of the day. The | :21:38. | :21:47. | |
honourable member reminded us of what is now a dim and receding | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
memory of the last Labour Government, had was going to be | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
hyperinflation, it didn't happen and the whole issue of QE was hotly | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
debated at the time and I would imagine it is something that we are | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
going to continue to hotly debated for some time. So to conclude, Mr | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
Deputy Speaker, the independent MBC of the Bank of England has a hugely | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
important role in these difficult times to play, in maintaining | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
monetary stability in this country, they have taken a range of steps to | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
achieve this objective and will be closely monitoring the impact of | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
this action. Let me remind the House, once again, members can take | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
an interest, it remains accountable to Parliament and I would suggest | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
that many more people took an interest in the inflation report | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
hearings of the Treasury committee. Thank you very much. Thank you very | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
much. Let me thank the backbench business committee for granting this | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
debate and for all the members that have posted they did this afternoon. | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
I think we found a well-informed fascinating debate. I hope this is | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
the start of something where we are signalled to the Bank of England | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
that sure we will get a report from the proceedings today that we wish | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
to see more of a fundamental analysis of the outcomes of the QE | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
programme and I think are very clear message to the Government which has | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
been shown by a thick or the actions that we have seen internationally, | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
he works of the OECD, you will as authority, there has to be the | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
linkage between monetary and fiscal policy and a very strong message has | :23:30. | :23:31. | |
been made by a member of numbers that we have to make sure that we | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
deal with wealth inequality and I look forward to carrying on this | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
debate, I look forward to the Government is addressing this in the | :23:40. | :23:40. | |
Autumn Statement. "Subtitles will resume on 'Thursday | :23:41. | :23:42. | |
In Parliament' at 2300." | :23:43. | :23:53. |