Browse content similar to 05/12/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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They took to the streets, stoned the police, looted shops, set fires | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
and visited chaos on previously sedate corners of the land. Who | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
were the rioters of last summer? Their behaviour was criminal, but | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
ground breaking intensive research, shows there may have been more to | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
it. I actually warranted to burn the cars, and see it burn as well | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
like, because the police, like, from what I have been through my | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
whole life, police have caused hell for me, innit like. Looting fed on | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
greed, but when they talk about their motive, many disclose deep | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
politics. I love this country, however I hate the people who run | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
it. What lessons can and should we learn to listening why they say | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
they did what they did. Germany and France believe they | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
have agreed a plan to save the euro, so why have they been warned about | :00:57. | :01:07. | |
:01:07. | :01:09. | ||
their credit ratings tonight. This year's riots, were the biggest | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
shock to this country in a generation. But who were these | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
people willing to attack the police and burn down parts of their own | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
neighbourhoods? The Government told us they were | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
criminals, that gangs were key, rioting was insited on Facebook, | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
but now the London School of Economics, and the Guardian | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
Newspaper, have questioned 270 of the rioters and discovered another | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
picture. A third of the rioters interviewed were unemployed, and | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
only a third admitted to a previous only a third admitted to a previous | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
conviction. Paul Lewis, who covered the riots | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
for that newspaper made the report, and there is strong language in the | :01:45. | :01:53. | |
film. The England riots were the first | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
bout of civil unrest in a generation. Thousands of people | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
took to the streets in towns and cities. The fires, looting and | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
clashes with police, gave the impression of a country at war with | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
itself. Four days of disturbances re- | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
resulted in five people dead, and more than 4,000 arrested. | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
Across England, homes, shops and residential streets were left | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
unrecoginsable. But why did it happen? This was not political | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
protest, or a riot about protest, or about politics, this was | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
commoner garden thieving, robbing and looting, we don't need an | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
inquiry to tell us that. decision to not hold an inquiry | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
into the riots, left a host of un'd questions. Four months on, no-one | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
seems to -- unanswered questions. Four months on, no-one seems to | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
know why the riots, that started here in Tottenham, took place. Our | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
teams of researchers have interviewed 270 people who rioted | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
in London, Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester. Their testimony has | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
undergone rigorous academic analysis, giving an insiebgt into | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
why people took to the streets. You are about to hear their stories, in | :03:04. | :03:14. | |
:03:14. | :03:16. | ||
their words. I was at a gig, I was just standing | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
outside having a cigarette, I was wondering why the crowd was | :03:19. | :03:29. | |
:03:29. | :03:30. | ||
gathering. That's when I found out it was a protest about Mark Dugg an | :03:30. | :03:39. | |
being shot by police. Mark D Dugg an had been shot dead by police two | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
days earlier, rumours had led to thoughts that he had been | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
assassinated. Locals demonstrated at a police station. That was the | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
first I had heard that Mark Dugg an had been shot, and I thought, what, | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
another injustice by the police. Supporters of the family waited | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
outside the police station for a senior officer, who never arrived. | :04:04. | :04:14. | |
After three hours, patience ran out. Two police cars had been trashed, a | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
group of youths had pushed a police car into the road and put black bin | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
liners on it and set it alight. People were standing around | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
cheering watching the police car go up in flames. I was just standing | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
talking to other people, and shoved the other car on the road and put | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
black bin liners there, I leaned in and set it alight. Then a guy came | :04:38. | :04:45. | |
across the road and I stood back and watched the car go up. I stood | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
there excited, fu lock them, lock the scum bass standards, it was an | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
opportunity, I had never set alight to a police car before, and it was | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
just, lock it, join in. It was a police car, I know what they stand | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
for. I have been battered before, I now the injustices they caused. | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
Alex was not a hooded youth, a white man, in his 30s, from south | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
London. Within minutes, the image of the blazing car began | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
circulating on mobile phones and the internet. It wasn't just black | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
people, at the end of the day. It was the people from all backgrounds. | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
Young, old, even little kids were there. I was literally talking to | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
people I would never talk to in my life. People being nice and | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
friendly and chatting to me, handing me cans, handing me a | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
spliff, going, yeah, lock the police. No-one was talking about | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
rioting or looting. Nothing like that, we were all sitting there and | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
watching the police cars burn. It was like Bonfire Night on the high | :05:45. | :05:55. | |
:05:55. | :06:00. | ||
street. But the party atmosphere didn't last for long. People from | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
surrounding boroughs poured into Tottenham, fires raged, police came | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
under heavy attack. Shops were ransacked. The police had lost | :06:12. | :06:19. | |
control. Police are calling for calm in Tottenham in North London. | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
When I was getting pictures on the news, they were just destroying | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
cars, they were within 10-20 feet from office, vandalising vehicles, | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
throwing bricks and the police weren't doing nothing. There was no | :06:32. | :06:41. | |
authority. It looked like we could have run of the streets. It started | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
going in a chain reaction, literally it started at one end, | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
and you know, the next valuable shop to go target, that was already | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
getting broken into. Everyone was helping each other, | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
holding up the shutters, carrying the short people inside. I saw | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
little kids there I was thinking, what? I thought, I want some money, | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
what? I thought, I want some money, I want some money. | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
I just went into a shop and I was like, it's already broken, this is | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
a jacket I don't have, and let me pick it up and take it. The people | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
we interviewed openly admitted they were opportunists, this was their | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
chance, in their words, to get free stuff. It felt like Christmas had | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
come early, just being able to take all the nice things that you want. | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
When you get a chance to put your hands on things like that, you feel | :07:34. | :07:43. | |
:07:44. | :07:46. | ||
good. As the lawlessness spread across London, the impression | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
emerged of a city gripped by looting. The Government blamed | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
social media for the contagion. But the rioters we spoke to were not | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
using Facebook and Twitter. It was BlackBerry phones that were the | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
main tools for organising the riots. The private messages, known as | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
broadcasts and pings being shared along chains of friends, were | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
reaching tens of thousands of phones, not only in the UK. Me and | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
a couple of my friends were on holiday people were sending | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
broadcasts and a couple of my friends pinged me and told me what | :08:20. | :08:28. | |
was happening. The viral messages reaching Daniel, included images of | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
the burning police cars, and rallying calls for people to take | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
revenge for the death of Mark Duggan, they loss gave a list of | :08:35. | :08:42. | |
where to meet and when. As soon as I saw that, I was happy. For some | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
reason I just wanted to be there. I actually wanted to turn the cars | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
and see it burn as well. The police, from what I have been through my | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
whole life, like, police have caused hell for me, innit, like. We | :08:58. | :09:05. | |
all cut our holiday and came straight back to England. | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
I always thought to myself, when I was on holiday, there is a chance | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
like this never come again. I saw it as my opportunity, now was the | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
opportunity to get revenge. It wasn't even just the police, it was | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
the whole Government, everything they do, they make things harder | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
for us. They make it hard for us to get jobs, even when we do get | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
benefits, they cut it down, like some people are trying to change | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
their lives and go to university, and they are raising up the prices, | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
and then people can't afford university, so they go back to | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
selling drugs and stuff, and then you want to arrest them and say, | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
you don't understand why all of these young people are acting like | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
this. Really and truly, they are the reason why we are the way we | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
are, innit, and I knew if we get back to England, and we actually | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
damage, like, do a lot of damage to the point where forget all the | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
benefits they have cut off, they would have to pay twenty-times | :10:07. | :10:17. | |
:10:17. | :10:17. | ||
worse than that. So we just our way of getting revenge. | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
We thought, OK, you want to financially hurt us, we will | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
financially hurt you by burning down buildings. I saw McDonalds get | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
set on fire, and then it was completely set alight. I have | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
petrol bombed it, eventhough it was set alight. I felt good. | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
Many of the people we spoke to travelled to more than one location, | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
they were searching for the disorder. Sometimes crossing the | :10:43. | :10:53. | |
:10:53. | :10:57. | ||
city. When we first got there, we saw police, they had their shields | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
up, running. We thought, OK, they are on the defensive. So we just | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
started picking up bricks and bottles and threw it at them. | :11:08. | :11:18. | |
:11:18. | :11:22. | ||
Locking bankers. It felt like Call Of Duty. It made | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
me feel odd as well, I knew it was somebody's mum or dad, I didn't | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
care, it was a chance to get revenge and I took it with both | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
hands. Our streets. It was a war. And for the first time we were in | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
control. We had the police scare, innit, there was no more us being | :11:43. | :11:50. | |
scared of the police. We actually had a choice of letting officers | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
off the hook, off seriously injuring them. I threw a brick at a | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
police woman, I saw her drop, I could have easily brick her again, | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
I didn't, because it was a woman. Scores of rioters said they had no | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
interest in looting. I wasn't there for the robbing. I was there for | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
revenge, innit. I will always remember the day that we had the | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
police and the Government scared. For once, they were living on, they | :12:19. | :12:26. | |
felt how we felt, they felt threatened by us. That was the best | :12:26. | :12:35. | |
three days of my life. As the riots spread across England, the | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
television pictures game the impression of mindless criminal -- | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
gave the impression of mineless criminality. The findings of our | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
study found it to be more complex. Those involved said they felt like | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
they were taking part in anti- police riots. | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
When we came across a police car, it felt like we hit the jackpot. We | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
smashed it, we petrol bombed it, we thought we would violate, just like | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
they violate us. They arrest people for no reason, | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
they stop and check us for no reason. We thought, like I get, get | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
our own back. That's what we did. We enjoyed it, I felt no guilt, | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
nothing. I know it is only one less police car, I know when they come | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
back, just seeing their faces. I would have loved to have seen their | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
faces, to be honest with you. Obviously rioters might seek to | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
justify their actions after the event. But familiar themes kept | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
arising, unprompted by our researchers. Rioters repeatedly | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
expressed frustrations about their daily interactions with police. In | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
their words, they felt hasled, bullied, unable to walk down their | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
streets without being stopped and searched. | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
Me and my mum were walking home, my younger brother and a few of his | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
friends, who have been in trouble with the police for a while. But | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
they weren't doing anything, they literally just met up in front of | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
my mum's block of flats. The police get out and question my wror | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
brother and his friends, my mum said, why do you he need to talk to | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
him. They were so disrespectful to my mum, and my mum was polite, | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
she's not a rude woman, they pushed her aside, sort of thing. Then they | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
pushed me aside. And they took him into the van, and they beat him up | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
and broke his nose. Some people would say because he's a | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
troublemaker, that it is fair, but it is not. | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
I have seen my friends get beaten up in front of me by the police | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
officer. But what can you do, you can't turn around and say I will | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
write a statement or send off a letter. You never get a reply or | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
nothing ever gets done about it. Time and again the rioters we | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
interviewed complained the police did not treat them as equals, they | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
said officers were rude, impolite, disrespectful. It didn't matter if | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
they were in Liverpool, London or Birmingham, they felt it was their | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
chance to get their own back. my point of view, everybody just | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
wanted to fight with the police. There weren't no looters or anyone | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
robbing, there was just shops getting smashed up. Any excuse to | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
go wild, really. And then it is people who like being battered by | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
the police, and they want payback. Things likes that. Police may have | :15:32. | :15:38. | |
been the main target of the riots, but the complaints didn't end there. | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
The scrapping of the education maintenance allowance, the focus of | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
protests last winter, was repeatedly mentioned. It was part | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
of a bigger picture, people we interviewed felt they were getting | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
a raw deal from Government. They spoke of youth service closures, | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
rising unemployment, and cuts to benefits. Almost half were in | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
education. And some had taken part in the student fee protests. Did it | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
achieve anything, we had a protest the other day, did it achieve | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
anything? No, they will put the university fees up, they will make | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
it really hard for people to get anywhere in life. To get go from | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
what my sister paid, I think it was a grand in tuition fees, she's six | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
years older than me, I paid three grand, they want nine now. You have | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
tripled it once and again. And you expect everyone to just sit back | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
and take it on the chin. For them to cut away things like EMA, | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
learning grants loans and up the university prices means people | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
resort back to the same thing. love this country, however I hate | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
the people who run it. David Cameron has never experienced a day | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
on the street or a day jobless, or being on job seekers. | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
At the time the consensus was people were rioting without a cause. | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
But those we spoke to made this much clear, the riots did not | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
happen in a political vacuum. course there was a reason behind it, | :17:07. | :17:16. | |
why would it all kick off. It wouldn't kick off for no reason. | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
Four nights of sustained rioting destroyed parts of England's | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
suburbs. The response from police was swift and hard. More than 4,000 | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
people were arrested. They would face harsher than usual sentences. | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
The Government's response has been what they have called a war on | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
gangs. At the heart of all the violence sits the issue of street | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
gangs. Our research has found no evidence to suggest gangs organised | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
the riots. If anything, the small proportion of gang members who were | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
present behaved in an atypical manner, across England, postcode | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
rivalries and gang hostilities dissolved for what was effectively | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
a four-day truce. You had different areas that had gang-related | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
problems working together, everyone put their problems away for that | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
week. They were able to get along, because we had one thing in common, | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
and that was to hurt the Government and the police. It wasn't really | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
gang-related. On those few nights of the riots, everybody united. I | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
think we all had the same feeling, we all had the common feeling and | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
we expressed it. For those whose lives were ruined by the riots, | :18:27. | :18:34. | |
that sense of unity will be hard to fathom. Rioters told us, they | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
regreted that parts of their own communities had been destroyed. | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
really didn't have to be there. I really didn't have to be there, I | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
have enough trainers as it is, and hats as it is. It didn't really | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
make a difference in my life. feel sorry for people who have | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
little businesses and that, I felt that was completely wrong, I | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
completely disagree with that. could have been setting fire to a | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
house that had babies in there, that is what made me stop. The fact | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
that I didn't want to hurt the innocents, but in way, that was | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
good, because as soon as I stopped bricking houses I went straight | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
into police cars, police officers. Even when rioters expressed regret, | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
they showed little remorse for their attacks on police. Setting | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
fire to the car, I don't feel guilty about it at all. I would do | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
it again. Hopefully there will be riots coming up soon. Why should I | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
respect them, if they don't respect me, for what reason, I would do it | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
again. I would probably do two police cars if I had the | :19:33. | :19:41. | |
opportunity, to be honest with you. Do you have any regrets? Yeah. But | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
that I didn't do more damage. I warrant -- wanted to burn down the | :19:47. | :19:57. | |
:19:57. | :19:59. | ||
Time to talk to the minister in charge of the police, Nick Herbert. | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
Do you think it might have been wiser if the Prime Minister had | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
waited to establish the facts before saying it was all just | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
criminality and gangs? We know that three quarters of those who have | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
been brought before the courts did actually have previous convictions. | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
So there is absolutely no doubt that these were people who had been | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
in trouble before, and we know. Doesn't that say something about | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
those arrested, this is a broader sample? It is right to say it is | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
about criminality when you are talking about people on the streets, | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
looting, damaging the property and attacking the police. Nobody denies | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
it was criminality, and awful in many cases. Wasn't the most | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
striking thing there, the sense of alienation that came through, and | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
the particular focus upon getting back at the police who they felt | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
had been oppressing them? I actual low don't sop accept that the | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
police behave in that way. -- I actually don't accept that the | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
police behave in that way. There are particular cases discussed in | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
Tottenham being discussed in a different place. But elsewhere it | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
was much more about copycat action, opportunism. Looting, some of that | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
came about in your report. If we go back to the fact that three quarter | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
of the people who took part in this, or who have been brought before the | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
courts, actually had criminal records. The fact that they don't | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
like the police is hardly a surprise. Shock, horror, criminals | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
don't like the police. This is much broader research than simply those | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
people who appeared before the court. This is 270 people who | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
participated in the riots, some of whom, a very small proportion, | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
about 30 of whom may have been arrested and indeed convicted, the | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
remaining 240 of whom were not. Hold on, as you said, in the report, | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
the report itself said, a third hadn't been in trouble with the law. | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
It was interesting that your report put it that way. You could have | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
said that it meant that two-thirds had a previous conviction. It is by | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
their own testimony. In the same order as three quarters brought | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
before the court with a previous conviction, this research shows | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
these people were people who had been in trouble with the law before. | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
That is air own statements too. Do you think -- that is their own | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
statements. Do you think they are making excuses then? If you look at | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
the research and what people were offering as the reasons they did | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
things, including a dislike of the police and the Government. That was | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
very different to the reasons that the public gave for why they | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
thought it would happen. The public were saying. The public weren't | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
rioting? The public were pointing to other issues, including social | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
breakdown, family breakdown, the public were much more inclined to | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
say. It is the testimony of the rioters themselves? The rioters | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
were reluctant to accept responsibility, what they wanted to | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
do was blame others. With us now is the former Metropolitan Police | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
commissioner, Lord Ian Blair, David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, Liz | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
Pilgrim, whose job was looted and vandalised during the riots, and | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
Professor Tim Newburn, and a youth leader from South-East London. Miss | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
Pilgrim what did you make of it, given your shop was wrecked by | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
these people, what did you make of what you heard there? I think that | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
the police didn't keep control that night. Sure. But the causes, what | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
they said about why they were rioting? I think that, in Ealing | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
itself, it wasn't a political proprotest, it was definitely | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
people that -- political protest, it was definitely people who took | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
the opportunity to ransack my street, set fire to the building, | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
make people lose their homes. Somebody died that night. It is no | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
excuse, really, is there, David Lammy, for what happened. You are | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
the MP for Tottenham, you know xapd there, there is no excuse for it? | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
would want to emphasise the 20,000 or so young people in Haringey who | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
stayed at home, and the 240,000 people in the London Borough | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
ofHaringey who were frightened in their homes. I do think that the | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
cohort of people that the Guardian have spoken to are important, and | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
unless we look into their eyes and hear their voices this will happen | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
again. I do think when they talk about stop and search, it is | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
important to recognise in the most diverse constituency in the country, | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
that there is an acceleration between, particularly for Muslim | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
youth and for black youth, in stop and search, at this point in time. | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
The Government have changed the rules on that. Also we have a | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
Metropolitan Police with only 868 black officers and 32,000 across | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
the Met. That is an issue. Do you recognise that, Nick Herbert? | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
goes to trust. I completely reject David's suggestion and lay this at | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
the door of Government changing rules. We scrap the reform that | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
said that the police had to record a stop and account, actually the | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
Met have chopbs, as is their right, not to do that in London. We have | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
reduced a couple of the specific bits of information that have to be | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
provided on the stop and search form that still has to be completed. | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
Isn't it a point about how the police are seen, do you accept | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
that? I accept that by the testimony of the people involved | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
there, they say they disliked the police, I make the point again, | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
these are people in trouble with the police, it is not surprising. | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
The testimony that you heard there from people who took part in the | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
riots, you didn't, but you know people who did. Does it ring true? | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
I think definitely, I think it is a huge problem when it comes to | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
relationships between young people and the police force. I think the | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
fact that a lot of the young people were talking in the film about how | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
they hated the police and they felt they were mistreated by the police. | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
I'm a young person who has been through that situation. I have been | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
stopped and searched at least six people, and I'm one of the young | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
people contributing to making society better in our communities. | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
That is a huge problem. With the stop and search it is a major | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
problem with the slips, that was one way to make sure if we thought | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
we were treated wrong bit police we could follow that up. The fact it | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
is scrapped, and the police are saying go to the police station to | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
get a slip about what is going on, everything is prolonged. There is a | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
lot of young people who have been faeked, and there is a lot of young | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
people -- affected and there is a lot of young people who are in | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
situations where the police has treated them wrong and they don't | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
know where to go to sort it out. Were you surprised by what you | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
found? I was a little, at the outset I thought that the subject | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
of policing would come up. I thought some of the issues of | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
whatever we want to call it, alienation, and so forth, would | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
have come up. I was surprised by the strength of it and the | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
frequency we heard it. We heard it in every city we did research and | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
across the demographic, men and women, young and old. Do you think | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
they were making excuses? Yes, in part I think they were. One cannot | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
deny that certainly some people that we spoke to were undoubtedly | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
trying to rationalise away some of their behaviour. Nonetheless, I | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
think the care with think the research was done, the care with | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
which the analysis was done, leads us to feel that the frequency and | :27:21. | :27:30. | |
very hemmence we heard was not just a rationalisation and something we | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
have to take seriously. I agree with Nick Herbert, it is an | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
excellent piece of research, as I would expect from the LSE, it has | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
the least surprising result, I don't want to sound like Blackadder, | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
the American Indians were found not to like General Custard. People do | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
not like police, because this is the group that they are most in | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
contact. I'm pleased with the fact that 73% of those rioters were | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
stopped and searched last year, the right people were stopped and | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
searched. Are you saying there is no problem? There is always room | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
for improvement. The fact is the police service in London has driven | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
crime down year after year since 1993. One of theishs you will end | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
up with is a -- issues you will end up with, is a group of people who | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
are entirely, with the difficulties they have over employment, over the | :28:25. | :28:32. | |
EMA, a lot of anger is there. can't stop just because you look | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
like, or where you are from. Nobody is suggesting here that people are | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
being stopped and searched, there is nothing racial in these riots, | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
this is about the group of people, who I think Tim will recognise, as | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
the phrase that criminologyists have used for a long time, called | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
"police property", these are the people, if I took you to a police | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
station or a prison, you would find three quarters of the people there | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
with previous conviction, you would find three quarters of the people | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
have educational needs. They are terribly badly educated, but...The | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
Point about the police is they deal with the symptoms, the political | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
part. You don't make anything of the political analysis? I make a | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
huge amount of political analysis. These are a group of people who are | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
the most deprived in the country. We need to help them, we need to | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
actually get right behind the educational processes. They are | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
being helped by the police, they are being beaten up by the police? | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
They are not being beaten up by the police. You are saying those people | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
are lying? You have to recognise a context in which over 300 people | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
have died in police custody, and not one police officer has felt the | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
force of the law. You have got to recognise the force with which | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
there are communities in London, who feel that is a grave injustice. | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
Of course, in the context of knife crime, it is understandable that | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
there is stop and search, but it needs to be intelligence-led, and | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
it is very difficult, if police cannot tell the difference between | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
a young man that is on the way to the gym, wearing a hoodie, and a | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
young man wearing a hoodie who is has a knife. Has the problem we | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
have with the Met in London. Nobody should be stopped on the grounds of | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
their ethnicity, that would be wrong. That is happening. We know | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
there is similar deprivation in Sheffield n Bradford, on Tyneside n | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
Glasgow, Edinburgh. They didn't riot there. These people who took | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
part in all of this, they are not the victims. The victims are people | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
like Liz, whose property was damaged. We know that, we watched | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
on our television screens, people walk out of shops with armfuls of | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
goods, people walking away with plasma TVs. People who lost their | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
moral compass. And we should take care not to lose our's, and think | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
actually there is any kind of excuse for this behaviour. There is | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
not. What do you think has gone wrong, your shop was looted? | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
Totally trashed, smashed, everything pulled out. What do you | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
sell in your shop? Baby clothes. That was looted. Some of which are | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
aspirational brands, some of which are hand made knitted booties. | :31:10. | :31:17. | |
did they do to it? They completely ransacked it, smashed everything up. | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
Stole everything they could carry. Walked out on to the reen and | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
dropped things. -- The green and dropped things. When you think | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
about what happened, what do you think has gone wrong in our | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
society? It is so complex, and it gets me really, really upset, | :31:34. | :31:42. | |
thinking that there isn't an answer, there's the fact that people feel | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
they have no future, that there is no consequences to their action, | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
that there really is no moral guideline for them any more. There | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
is no hope. And I think that we're all to blame. It's schools it's the | :31:59. | :32:08. | |
police, it's society in general. We all try to aspire to certain brands | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
and. You are playing the individual's concerns, this is an | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
individual judgment, and the collective norms of behaviour | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
changed during the riots, obviously, but each action is the consequence | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
of an individual decision, isn't it? Yes it is. Can I just say as | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
well, it is very poignant in that film that people, some of them | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
regreted their actions. And that it was that moment. Some didn't? | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
there were moments I think when people just got caught up with what | :32:38. | :32:47. | |
was happening. We can't just brush everybody with the same statement. | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
We have a model that is policing by consent, and it seems to me that | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
the absence of policing, right across London, led to a situation | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
in which that ethical and moral decision, that individuals have to | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
make, and account for themselves, was allowed to be at large. This is | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
the failure of the police on certain nights? In successive | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
nights. If they kept control on the Saturday night it wouldn't have | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
escalated. What do you think has gone wrong in the society? Nobody | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
is born a criminal. To just say that a lot of the people who | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
weren't part of the riots, they were reoffenders, you have to ask | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
why did they reoffend in the first place. A lot of those people are | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
not being helped when they are showing the symptoms of needing | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
help, wherever that may be, in the education system, if it when it | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
comes to the relationship between the police and the young people, | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
something needs to be done. What has changed within our society is | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
nobody really wants to take the rap for what is going on. I think when | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
it comes to young people, a lot of young people do ask for help, it | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
may not anybody a verbal conversation, at the same time a | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
lot of young people show symptoms that they need some type of | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
interaction. A lot of people tend to point the finger at young people | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
and say they should be responsible for their actions. We are not doing | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
this out of nowhere, we are learning it from people we saw on | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
tell ves, the bankers the politicians, the police officers. | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
There is no respect anywhere, is there. It is white collar crime, | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
but because they are wearing suits is it OK for them to get away it. | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
Just baulk young people weren't very organised and wearing hoodies | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
we should condemn them. If the justice system is putting some | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
people away, they should be treated with the same brush, no matter a | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
young people or politician. Young people took that on board t may not | :34:34. | :34:41. | |
be on a conscious level, but a sub conscious level, that if they can | :34:41. | :34:48. | |
do it, then we can get away with it. Not awful them were young. | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
Offending should always have consequence, a white collar | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
criminal or those in anti-social behaviour. We need a system that | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
sends those clear messages. One of the things that happened after this | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
disorder is the criminal justice system responded with unusual | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
certainty in dealing with people. It sent the right message, actually. | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
Some of them may have got it. is true, what is it going to | :35:10. | :35:18. | |
achieve by banging people up? you are saying, that exemplary | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
sentences should not have been handed down, those are matters for | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
the courts. I completely disagree. You have to send that signal to | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
people that the behaviour is not acceptable. I don't know if simply | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
trying to brush these people aside is the right way to do it. None of | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
it should stop us doing the all the things. Restorative justice is very | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
important. There is an important distinction, it is not to say, of | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
course when people break the law, in the most extreme ways there | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
should be punishments. It is wrong to shift from that to thinking the | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
criminal justice system is the solution to the problems we face. | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
Nobody is saying it is. And actually. That is what you were | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
saying just then, it was. I was saying that offending has | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
consequences and whether you are a white collar criminal or somebody | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
on the streets, I don't think, by the way, that people who were | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
looting at the time thought they were doing so because of expenses | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
scandals or City scandals. Young people are getting arrested and put | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
away, and by the time they are coming out it is 19, everything | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
they need to turn them into an adult and turn them into a help to | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
society they are not getting the chances. Reform of the penal system, | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
I agree it is not enough. Ian Blair, one question, Liz has already | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
raised this question, and so has David Lammy, and it is commonly | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
held, the police failed to act quickly enough. You weren't there, | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
none of us was taking commands then, or giving commands then. But now | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
the talk is, of issuing the police with water canon, and if necessary | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
plastic bullets, is that the answer? If that is the answer it is | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
the wrong question. Neither of those tactics would have been any | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
use in these riots. Plastic bullets and water canon are designed to | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
keep people away from a particular place, they use them in France and | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
all the rest of it. To try to chase rioters moving quickly around | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
London with that kind of equipment would be nonsense. What I want to | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
contribute, one further point, which is the concentration in the | :37:23. | :37:29. | |
Guardian today about the police, is an answer about the symptoms.Y, the | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
police could have done better and they should been there more quickly, | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
and better intelligences, and Liz's shop should not have been ruined. | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
But the answer lies much further back in who this group of people | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
are, they are the same group of people sitting in prison now, with | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
poor educational standards. have made that point. It is | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
terribly important. Surely other people might say the police are a | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
lightning conductor for a problem clearly identified by rioters and | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
observers as being them and us. police are engaged with this group | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
and will go on being engaged with this group forever, that is what | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
policing does. It does it every country in the world t deals with a | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
group of people who behave in a criminal form. If the Government | :38:11. | :38:19. | |
wants more robust policing, then I personallyam concerned -- I | :38:19. | :38:27. | |
personally I am concerned. latest news in the euro seems to | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
have convinced those who move the markets, for now at least. Nicolas | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
Sarkozy and Angela Merkel agreed today they need a new treaty n | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
which those who break the rules sufferam penalties, they want a new | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
bailout fund. Within hours the rating agency, Standard & Poor's | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
told the eurozone countries that they could lose their blue chip | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
credit rating as early as Friday night, if their plan doesn't work. | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
First, they failed in Brussels, then they failed in Cannes. For | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
months the EU has been like an endless advent calendar, where it | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
is always winter but never Christmas. Summit after summit as | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
failed. Today, in Paris, Europe's leaders may just have opened a | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
window on the future. The German Chancellor arrived in Paris, with a | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
plan, and once she got President Sarkozy behind closed doors, and | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
after some give and take, the French backed the plan. | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
TRANSLATION: France and Germany are the two big economies of Europe. To | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
take the risk of us spliting, is to take the risk of exploding Europe | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
and the euro. The deal they are working on shapes | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
up like this, there will be legally-binding commitments to | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
balance the books enshrined in national institutions. With -- | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
constitutions. With automatic sanctions for those with deficits | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
above 3%. The long-term bailout fund for Europe, the ESM, will be | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
brought forward, launching in 2012, but it will no longer try to impose | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
losses on the banks. It will all be done through a new treaty, with or | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
without Britain. There is the clear beginnings of a long-term deal here. | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
But it is being done for a short- term reason, the leaders need to | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
convince the European Central Bank they are prepared to impose | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
discipline on southern Europe, not just once, but forever. If they can | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
do that, the Central Bank itself may do what it has never done, act | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
as the lender of last resort, and begin buying up the debts of those | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
sthriken countries. What the an -- striken countries. What the | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
analysts are looking for now is action in the short-term, and some | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
big money. I don't think it will succeed in being a circuit breaker, | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
on its own. You will have to see a number of other measures announced | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
on Friday, for this solution to really be found. I think you will | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
have to see another bailout groing programme announced for Spain and | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
Italy, include -- bailout programme announced for Spain and Italy. You | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
will have to see the ECB stepping in some way. I don't think any are | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
actual solutions but they will buy some time, if EU leaders can agree | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
on them. On the markets the impact was | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
immediate, the Italian Government's effective cost of borrowing slumped, | :41:08. | :41:14. | |
it had been well above 7% after Cannes. But it fell below 6% today. | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
Now comes the tiny problem of selling the whole deal, first to | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
the French. I don't think the French are in very much in favour | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
of handing over more sovereignty to the commission in Brussels. However, | :41:24. | :41:31. | |
a solution must be found. The crisis to be resolved very, very | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
quickly. It depends, again, how it is done. The French are very much | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
in favour, traditionally, to regulation, and if they see that | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
the markets can be tamed by political leadership, I think they | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
will be in favour of it. Once the French are squared, there is the | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
Brits, we know David Cameron's position. On the referendum, our | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
approach is very simple, we have legislated now, so it is impossible | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
for a British Government to pass power, from Britain to Brussels, | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
without asking the British people in a referendum first. That is the | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
legal position. We have made that vitally important change. As Prime | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
Minister, I'm not intending to pass any powers from Britain to Brussels, | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
I don't think the issue will arise, but the British people should know, | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
there is an absolute safeguard if power goes from Britain to Brussels, | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
they have to say so first, and quite right too. What if a 17- | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
nation treaty changes the balance of power, Merkel and Sarkozy made | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
it clear today they would not be asking for Mr Cameron's rubber | :42:31. | :42:38. | |
stamp. For the past six months the eurocrisis has been essentially a | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
political sis, solvable by a decision making, even if people | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
don't want to make decisions, now six months of indecision have | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
created a world economic downturn, and Britain is being dragged into | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
that. This is how one Italian minister felt as she voted through | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
a new round of austerity last night. And well she might, the ratings | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
agency S & P threatened to downgrade the whole eurozone, | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
reminding them that while they have been dithering, growth has been | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
disappearing. We will probably see debt restructuring in Italy and | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
Spain. The influences of that on confidence, the financial services | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
industries and lending is huge, and will cause growth to contract. | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
there nothing they can do to stop that? No, I don't think there is, | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
unless they draw a line under the crisis. Unless they can cut rates, | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
talk down the euro, provide stimulus in the eurozone, I don't | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
think they could find growth. they don't do a deal on Friday, the | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
European calendar becomes a bit fraught, Italy needs to sell two | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
big piles of bonds before the new year and up to now, nobody is | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
buying. One slip there, and the whole mood of confidence goes out | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
the window. Paul is here now with more on the | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
warning tonight from the credit creating agency, Standard & Poor's. | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
-- credit rating agency, Standard & Poor's. Germany and France agree to | :44:03. | :44:09. | |
save the euro and risk getting their credit rating downgraded. | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
Within hours, S & P have said that the there is a 50% of chance that | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
the whole of the eurozone gets downtkwraided, the six triple A | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
ratings would be lost. That would make the bailout fund, based on | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
that money, impossible to do. They are saying you have a mixture of | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
political indecision, there is a credit crunch in your banking | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
system, and in the case in France you have your sums wrong on the | :44:32. | :44:40. | |
buing budget deficit. Who are these people? All they exist to do is to | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
say if the bonds are tripping A or not, are they risk-free or not. It | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
brings the medicine methed out to Greece and Italy -- meted out to | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
Greece and Italy potentially to France, maybe someone wants to get | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
rid of the French Government. likely is today's deal to stick, | :44:58. | :45:05. | |
and where does it leave Britain and other non-euro mebts, the former | :45:05. | :45:12. | |
banker Joe Johnson, and the -- my other guest are here. Why is this | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
deal going to work better than the other deal, all the arrangements | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
exist? Yes they do, the only reason I can think that this should be | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
make a difference is Angela Merkel is -- should make a difference, is | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
Angela Merkel is talking about institutions and looking more in | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
charge, and might be able to get more out of her own parliament at | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
home. She always looked like she was running after the last | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
financial market panic. People in Germany got very upset with her. | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
When she started talking about grand bargains and treaty change | :45:45. | :45:53. | |
and fiscal and stability change, the way she is handling the crisis | :45:53. | :46:01. | |
has shot up. That might help in having to get the bailout funds | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
going, getting more money from the IMF. Of course, it is broader than | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
just Germany, the proposal is there be a new treaty? Yes, but that is a | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
very long-term thing. They are talking about having this treaty. | :46:15. | :46:21. | |
It is March, not that long-term? treat change in Europe has ever | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
gone that quickly. -- no treaty change in Europe has ever gone that | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
quickly. There is no reason to take it seriously then? The treaty | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
change is long-term any way, it will not change the eurozone. This | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
is part of a package that is politically necessary to convince | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
the ECB that it is safe to intervene in the markets. They | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
don't want to do the dirty job of telling the Italians to cut their | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
budget. They don't want to act as the lender of last resort but first | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
resort. They have played it back to the politicians. You're nodding | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
very loyally? I think she's right. The fiscal factor is one part of a | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
multistep solution. The S & P reaction illustrates the fact that | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
France and Germany don't have credibility when it comes to | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
enforcing fiscal rules. I was a Paris correspondent in 2005 they | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
were the original sinners, they broke the rules. So this fiscal | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
pact needs to be reinforced and in a number of ways. We need to have | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
collective borrowing mechanisms, we need to see the EFSF, financed by | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
the ECB, or we need to see euro bonds tpwheerbgsd proper commitment. | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
What about the question -- we need to see proper commitment. What | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
about the treaty change, a lot of people in your party would see it | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
as a great chance to repatriate powers to Britain from Brussels, | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
would that help? There are commitments to repatriateing | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
certain powers, the Working Time Directive, that is in the coalition | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
programme for Government F that opportunity arises, David Cameron | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
will pursue it. We already look completely marginal, don't we. For | :48:00. | :48:07. | |
something that is so intergral to our economic well being, the | :48:07. | :48:16. | |
British are more or less not using? That is not true, our voice is | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
powerful and heard and appreciated there. It is not fair to say | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
completely marginal. If a treatyo goes ahead, Angela Merkel says she | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
-- treaty goes ahead, Angela Merkel says she's easy about all 27 or the | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
17 and others who want to come in, and Britain is not part of it, they | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
are able to stitch up all sorts of things not in Britain's interests? | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
You are thinking of potential attacks on the City of London. I | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
think Britain needs more self- confidence and say let's win each | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
market on its merits. George Osborne did that to fan it is | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
particular effect in Brussels last weekend with the financial taxes | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
act, that was clearly against British interests and he | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
successfully batted it off. Do you share the confidence? It is the | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
right way to go. Britain should really spend its political fire | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
power where its interests lies, that is keeping the single market | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
whole and free. Making an intelligence argument on financial | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
services and regulation of financial services in Europe. Not | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
when, at a time when the Europeans are defending the euro, which is an | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
extension interest of those countries that are in -- | :49:25. | :49:31. | |
existential interest of those that are in there. And not as the | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
British Prime Minister and go I'm talking about the European Working | :49:35. | :49:42. | |
Time Directive, that will not go well there. We can't get those | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
powers back? Perhaps at this time I wouldn't use that vexing moment in | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
Europe to talk about something that is narrowly in the interests of | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
Britain in Europe. What do you regard as this vexing moment? | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
Government has been supportive for further progress towards fiscal | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
union, the fiscal pact is something that George Osborne and David | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
Cameron have been pushing for solidly for the past three months. | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
It will be very much welcomed. Thank you very much. Some of | :50:06. | :50:15. | |
:50:16. | :50:47. | ||
We have learned more about how seriously or otherwise the | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
Government takes austerity today. David Cameron is planning to double | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
the amount of money spent on the ceremonies for the Olympics next | :50:54. | :51:01. | |
year, total is now �81 million. The last time London hosted the | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
Olympics, the whole games cost less than three quarters of a million. | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
Competitors brought their own towels, and the highlight of the | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
opening ceremony was the release of several thousand pigeons. That is | :51:13. | :51:22. | |
:51:23. | :51:39. | ||
several thousand pigeons. That is austerity, good night. | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
Winter has arrived, that's for sure. It is an icey night. Particularly | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
across more northern parts of the country. The Met Office has issued | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
a yellow warning to naebgt. Icey services around, with the showers | :51:51. | :52:01. | |
:52:01. | :52:04. | ||
Some showers getting into parts of the Midlands, East Anglia and the | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
south-east too. Rather more cloud around, with the greater chance of | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
the odd shower. Plenty more dryer weather out there. Showers for | :52:13. | :52:15. | |
South-West England, temperatures seven or eight. It will be tempered | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
by the breeze. Not exactly warm out there. To the ee of the hills | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
across Wales, probably a -- to the east of the hills across Wales, | :52:24. | :52:31. | |
probably lengthier dryer spells. After an icey night a cold day. | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
Showers turning widespread as we end the day. Snow across Scotland, | :52:36. | :52:42. | |
fewer showers before tomorrow night, we will see snow spreading across | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
Scotland. Across northern areas sunshine as well. A big change in | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
the weather on Thursday, wet weather also spreading across | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
southern areas on Thursday, temperatures temporarily bouncing | :52:52. | :52:57. |