06/12/2011 Newsnight


06/12/2011

The latest on a critical report blaming the police and prosecution service's handling of intelligence gathered by the undercover police officer Mark Kennedy. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Good evening, David Cameron is willing to derail plans to save the

:00:07.:00:12.

euro, if the deal doesn't safeguard Britain's interests. It sounds

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tough, but is it anything more than empty words. If the currency can't

:00:16.:00:21.

be saved convincingly, the whole world will feel the consequences.

:00:21.:00:27.

What would those consequences be? We have two leading economists, and

:00:27.:00:31.

a senior parliamentarian from Angela Merkel's party. An official

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inquiry concludes the court case, derailed by an undercover policeman,

:00:35.:00:41.

was all the fault of one lawyer. Is that credible, the Director of

:00:41.:00:44.

Public Prosecution himself is here. The police in Moscow cart off

:00:44.:00:47.

protestors unhappy with the elections at the weekend. We talk

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to the man who was Vladimir Putin's Prime Minister.

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I would say it is the beginning of the end of the regime. As Americans

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Republicans consider who should run against Obama, we hear from the

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conservative Midwest, about what they want from their candidate.

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The secretary of the US Treasury was in Germany today, it wasn't a

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social visit. It is testament to the way in which the will they

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won't they spectacle leaves them as reluctant participants. It is said

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to be four days left for the rescue deal to be achieved. The Germans

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and French believe a rescue package more or less in place. The British

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Prime Minister tried to send a message that he wouldn't go through

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with it if it wasn't in British interests. Let's deal with what

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David Cameron had to say first? He has some idea of what the proposal

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will be? Around the proposal of stricter proposals on countries

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that have the euro, we have a hint of the mechanism on what it will be

:02:08.:02:14.

to have it agreed. What it will be, we are told from EU sources, is a

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treaty amendment agreed by 27 countries, not just the 17

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countries that use the euro. That brings into play, of course, the

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British veto, then we see British Conservative euro-sceptics thinking

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this is the opportunity to get what they want in terms of repatriation

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of powers from Europe. The Prime Minister has to sound tough in

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order to satisfy them, but not so tough as he upsets the European

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leaders. This is what he had to say today. What I'm saying is if, and

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eurozone countries do need to come together, do need to do more things

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together, if they choose to use the European treaty to do that, Britain

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will be insisting on some safeguards too. As long as we get

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those, that treaty can go ahead, if we can't get those, it won't.

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think on these occasions, an instructive game is to say what he

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said in reverse, say the negative of what he said, and work without

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whether actually's saying. If the negative doesn't mean anything,

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neither does the positive. In which case, does it mean anything to say,

:03:16.:03:19.

can you imagine a British Prime Minister not saying something like

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"I'm prepared to agree to a treaty that is not in Britain's national

:03:24.:03:29.

interest", the question, is, what is Britain national interest, and

:03:29.:03:33.

what is that, we get a clue in the Times tomorrow. He says the biggest

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national interest is the euro sorts out its problems. He goes on to

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make sure that the City of London is defended in terms of the tran

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action tax. Making sure the euro survives. That is not how his

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backbenchers see our national interest. The threat of a veto is

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guff? The threat of a veto, if the financial transaction tax was on

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the agenda, and EU sources say it is not on the agenda for Friday,

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then perhaps it would be a full threat. In terms of making sure the

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euro survives and sorts its problems out, he's very unlikely to

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veto something along those lines. Three people who might have some

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idea which way is up are an economist and adviser to the UN

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Secretary-General, Ban Ki-Moon, author of the Price of Civilisation,

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his latest book, he has been clearing up sovereign debt crisis

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from around the world for 20 years. And our guest who specialises in

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emerging economies is here, and Angela Merkel's Chief Whip in the

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German parliament joins us from there. Are you worried about the

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prospect of David Cameron exercising some sort of British

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veto? No, I'm not worried at all. My impression is we have a very,

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very large common interest this time, this is to preserve

:04:57.:05:01.

sustainability of the eurozone and to prevent international, global

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recession. This interest is shared by the UK, by Germany, and all

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other countries in the European Union. Next Thursday and Friday is

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crucial in the rescue operation for the euro. We have to give a strong

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signal of determination of stability and of reform. Therefore

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we need and want to get the support of our British friends. OK, so this

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is really a comment made for domestic consumption. I would like

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to broaden this out beyond Britain, beyond indeed Europe, to some of

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the aspects for this for the rest of the world. How big a deal, will

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it be, if the euro were to fail, how beige deal for the rest of the

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world? -- big a deal for the rest of the world? Very big, potentially

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disastrous. When Lehman brothers went down in 2008, we know the

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crisis, panic and fear spread through the entire financial system.

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If Europe some how failed to come together to protect the eurozone,

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and it ended up in a chaotic disintegration, the chaos would

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also lead to a contagion of fear that could disrupt international

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financial markets around the world. It must not happen. It doesn't have

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to happen, it should not happen. This problem should be solvable,

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and it should be solved. It could have been solved, you might argue?

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It should have been solved much earlier. I also feel that the

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diagnosis hasn't been exactly on point up until now. We will come to

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that in a second or two. Linda, the Europeans were trotting off to

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Beijing two or three weeks ago, hoping the Chinese would suddenly

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cast charitable glances at Europe, they aparently were less than

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enthusiastic about it, what are the consequences for China, the real

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powerhouse of the world economy at present? Potentially quite

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significant. Not so much because of financial contagion, what Jeffrey

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was talking about, because their financial system isn't particularly

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exposed to European sovereign debt, but, of course, what the Chinese

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have always worried about, if you have a huge disruption in the

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global economy, a collapse in global trade, their economy still

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is predominantly relying on trade as a driver. That could cause a

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downturn in their economy, three years ago, 20 million people lost

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their jobs, that is a third of the British population, they are

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worried about that kind of upheaval. They are trying to monitor what is

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going on in Europe, they want it to be stable, they are really worried

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about dislocation in their own economy. One is bound to ask, why

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they were so unwilling to bail out the Europeans? Maybe it is because

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average Chinese incomes are one tenth of that in western Europe, so

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I think they do have...That Is a fair cop! They still obviously,

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they do have, I think, an increasing role to play as the

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world's second-biggest economy. If there was a multilateral effort,

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via the IMF, to supply more credit lines, or what have you, I suspect

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the Chinese would go in, if it was truly multilateral, and it wasn't

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seen as the Chinese rescuing. do we still find ourselves in this

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position, a long time after you seem to suggest we might have got

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out of it? There has been too much improve adviceation, and not enough

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getting to -- improvisation and not enough getting to the matter. I'm

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not against what they are doing this week, but this focus only on

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the fiscal situation, really is a bit misdepieded, this crisis had

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its or -- misguided. This crisis had its origins in massive lending

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in property booms, only in Greece was the fiscal problem the core of

:08:50.:08:54.

the problem, not in Italy, not in Ireland, not in Portugal. It is the

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banking crisis not addressed right now, and together with that it is

:08:58.:09:03.

the role of the European Central Bank, vis a vis the banks, and

:09:03.:09:05.

European liquidity, which is not being handled. What is interesting

:09:06.:09:12.

now, some glimmer of progress, with the new head of the ECB, Mario

:09:12.:09:16.

Draghi is saying, get something on the budget, and then I will come in

:09:16.:09:21.

and be a proper Central Bank. That is long overdue.

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He's far too polite to say so, but he as suggesting that German policy

:09:26.:09:30.

has been at fault in all of this, aren't you? The focus that

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everything is wrong being profligate abroad has overdone it,

:09:34.:09:39.

a lot of German banks were also extravagant in their loans, maybe

:09:39.:09:45.

we ought to look at the banking sector? This is an unprecedented

:09:45.:09:50.

crisis, and there was no pattern for resolving it so far. What we

:09:50.:09:55.

have to do was to bring together a number of actors, not just the ECB,

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but 27 member states of the European Union. The European

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Parliament and the Commission. All of them had to find agreement. It

:10:05.:10:10.

is all about confidence. There was a lack of confidence that Europeans

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would be prepared to rescue their own currency, and therefore, this

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meeting on Friday, is so incredibly important, probably the most

:10:20.:10:24.

important meeting of the European Summit over the last 20 years.

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far as China is concerned, India and other countries in that region,

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I'm quite confident that all these countries will come in as soon as

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they realise there is a political will, there is a political

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commitment amongst the member- states of the European Union.

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Isn't the lack of urgency staggering. Here we are talking

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about a treaty that might take effect in March, two years after

:10:50.:10:53.

this crisis began. How does it strike you? I think there is a

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sense that it has taken quite a long time to probably realise a

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solution that could have been had, when Greece needed to bail out in

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May last year. I think probably there needs to be a political will,

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but there needs to be at least two parties to this solution. One is

:11:09.:11:14.

this fiscal union, probably some time of road map that they want to

:11:14.:11:18.

adapt. That is a political decision. In the near term, the real urgency

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you are speaking about is about supporting the banks. If there is

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disruption, the eurozone doesn't have a Central Bank, that can

:11:25.:11:29.

really step in. That is a real problem. It is not clear at all

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that there is anything that the eurozone leaders can do about that

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point right now, but Jeffrey may well be right. Perhaps Thursday,

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Mario Draghi could step in. Let's see what he thinks? I do think we

:11:43.:11:47.

need that opening for the European Central Bank to play a role of a

:11:47.:11:54.

Central Bank for the first time. Because, really, I like very much

:11:54.:11:59.

what was being said, that everybody has to get together to save the

:11:59.:12:03.

euro. But that hasn't been what has been said up until now. What has

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been said up until now is leave the ECB on the sideline, they shouldn't

:12:07.:12:11.

play a role. Many politicians around Europe, including in Germany

:12:11.:12:15.

have said, well, the Greeks, let them go, there hasn't been that

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commitment that we're seeing this week. I like it. Because the

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eurozone needs saving. But we went through a long process where this

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hasn't been the clear message. One of the things is that Europe

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disarmed itself, it took its own Central Bank out of the battle up

:12:32.:12:36.

until now. Maybe the Central Bank is going to come back, the European

:12:36.:12:40.

Central Bank is going to come back into the battle. This would really

:12:40.:12:45.

calm a lot of nerves. Because what the rest of the world is seeing is

:12:45.:12:51.

a Central Bank that seems to be allowing I will liquidity and panic

:12:51.:12:57.

to seize -- ill liquidity and panic to seize markets, which is shocking

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without that defence. Do you think Germany has demonstrated sufficient

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capacity to lead in this? It is no the first instance a question of

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leadership, it is a question of acting and coming together, we

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shouldn't forget over the last one- and-a-half years, we have provided

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billions of euros in order to guarantee the sovereign debt of

:13:20.:13:26.

countries like Greece, Ireland and Portugal. We have established the

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European financial support facility, and the ECB has played a role, an

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active role, over the last couple of months. We made it clear we are

:13:39.:13:43.

prepared to respect the independence of the ECB. Mr Sachs

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is right in saying there has been some contradicting debates in

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Germany and other countries, whether Greece should stay within

:13:51.:13:55.

the eurozone, whether we should preserve the eurozone. Angela

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Merkel has made it clear, very, very clear, undoubtedly clear, that

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we want to preserve the eurozone with all 17 member-states, and we

:14:05.:14:11.

are prepared to take the appropriate steps to do it. And the

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European Central Bank? The European Central Bank is independent

:14:21.:14:24.

according to the model of the German banks. What would have

:14:24.:14:28.

difficulties to imagine would be the role of the ECB as the lender

:14:28.:14:34.

of last resort. This is an anglo- American model, that is not a

:14:34.:14:41.

common model in Europe. But below, below this solution, there is range

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of possiblities, in all these possiblities they have to be

:14:44.:14:51.

considered by Mr Draghi, by his board, and probably executed. --

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properly executed. You were rolling your eyes when you heard this idea

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of not being a lender of last resort as an anglo-American idea?

:15:00.:15:04.

think there has been a problem in the way the eurowas set up. The

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Central Bank was not set up as a lender of last resort. It is not an

:15:10.:15:14.

anglo-American idea per se, it is what a Central Bank does for a

:15:14.:15:17.

currency. You think this too? has to act as a lender of last

:15:17.:15:22.

resort, I liked what was said, that the eurozone needs to be preserved,

:15:22.:15:27.

this is important. It hasn't been a clear message up until now, if it

:15:27.:15:32.

can be a clear and resolute message inside Germany first, and then

:15:32.:15:37.

carried out professionally. Not just happen hazardly, but

:15:37.:15:41.

professionally, we will see the euro through professionally.

:15:41.:15:44.

Policemen taking part in illegal activities and policemen lying in

:15:45.:15:47.

court, what we have learned about the behaviour of undercover police

:15:47.:15:50.

officers has been shocking. According to an official

:15:50.:15:52.

investigation, the Crown Prosecution Service as a whole

:15:52.:15:55.

wasn't responsible. It was all the fault of a single lawyer, and the

:15:55.:15:59.

lefthand not knowing what the right was doing. Whitewash say

:15:59.:16:02.

campaigners for the people who got sent to jail as a consequence of

:16:02.:16:07.

the police operation. Before I talk to the Director of Public

:16:07.:16:16.

Prosecutions, we have this report. Mark Kennedy infiltrated climate

:16:16.:16:20.

protestors almost a decade ago, his actions continue to recognise co-

:16:20.:16:27.

chet. He played a key role in directing an action in side this

:16:27.:16:32.

school in Nottingham. Kennedy secretly recorded the meeting on an

:16:32.:16:36.

adapted kasyo catch. Later that night the police raided, arresting

:16:36.:16:40.

114 people, 26 were charged. Some were convicted of conspiracy to

:16:40.:16:50.
:16:50.:16:50.

commit public order offences. These secret recordings would have shown

:16:50.:16:54.

there was no conspiracy, not all activists had decided to take part

:16:54.:16:59.

in the action. These tapes weren't disclosed to the defence, nor was

:16:59.:17:02.

Mark Kennedy's dual role as activist and undercover cop. A role

:17:02.:17:08.

that might have brought fears of him being an agent provokeure. It

:17:08.:17:13.

was our report on Newsnight, that forced the CPS to beef up its

:17:13.:17:18.

rather internal inquiry, after the former director of prosecutions

:17:18.:17:27.

said this on the programme said this. It is a very serious

:17:27.:17:31.

allegation, Danny is right in one respect, this is such a serious

:17:31.:17:41.
:17:41.:17:41.

question that it calls into play Whether it should be an internal

:17:41.:17:44.

inquiry. Lord McDonald's call for an independent inquiry was heeded,

:17:44.:17:50.

the very next day the CPS announced Sir Chris mer Rose, a former Appeal

:17:50.:17:54.

Court judge would lead it. Who is to blame for failing to disclose

:17:54.:17:58.

Mark Kennedy's covert role and the secret recordings there are three

:17:58.:18:02.

candidates, the National Public Order Intelligence Unit, running

:18:02.:18:06.

him, Nottingham shiver Police, who authorised his deployment, and the

:18:07.:18:12.

CPS, handling the prosecution case. The relationship between Nottingham

:18:12.:18:18.

Police and Ian Cunningham, a senior lawyer in the CPS, Nottingham

:18:18.:18:23.

division, lies at the centre of today's report. The author, Sir

:18:23.:18:28.

Christopher Rose said if Mark Kennedy's role had been further

:18:28.:18:31.

discussed it is highly unlikely anyone would have thought it in the

:18:31.:18:38.

public interest for charges to be brought. Kennedy's role was fully

:18:38.:18:47.

discussed with CPS lawyers, it was told to Mr Rose, but the police

:18:47.:18:51.

didn't alert the CPS to the significance of the transcripts of

:18:51.:19:01.
:19:01.:19:06.

the tapes, the Police accept some The report piles most of the blame

:19:06.:19:16.
:19:16.:19:19.

on one senior CPS lawyer, Ian The Name Of The Rose report

:19:19.:19:24.

declares the CPS innocent on the most -- the Rose report declares

:19:24.:19:28.

the CPS innocent on the most serious charge, withholding

:19:28.:19:31.

evidence from the defence. Those on the outside playing the biggest

:19:31.:19:37.

role on bringing these matters into the public domain are unimpressed.

:19:37.:19:41.

Sir Christopher Rose was not asked to address that question, he was

:19:41.:19:48.

asked to look at one particular, serious but ring-fenced apparent

:19:48.:19:51.

failure of disclosure. There were 11 other inquiries taking place,

:19:52.:19:57.

and there is much wider issues beyond those 12 inquiries. Without

:19:57.:20:01.

a report robust, publicly accountable inquiry, a single one,

:20:01.:20:04.

none of us can have confidence with any of these reports that are

:20:04.:20:10.

coming through now. Defence solicitor, here, has revealed

:20:10.:20:15.

details of several other police officers whose role has not been

:20:15.:20:19.

properly disclosed. The latest involves hunt saboteurs from 1996,

:20:19.:20:24.

infiltrated by undercover cop Jim Sutton. This is Jim Sutton coming

:20:24.:20:28.

from the left. He approaches the policemen and the person he

:20:28.:20:34.

arrested. Interesting. Bat on raised there. Simon Taylor, one of

:20:34.:20:39.

the original activists pointed him out. He swings him out, Jim Sutton

:20:39.:20:42.

backs off. These documents show he volunteered to give evidence for

:20:42.:20:45.

the defence, they were written by none other than Keir Starmer, then

:20:45.:20:51.

a defence bars te, now the Director of Public Prosecutions. --

:20:51.:20:55.

barrister, now the Director of Public Prosecutions. They are se

:20:55.:21:00.

sitting on a huge number of irregularities in justice,

:21:00.:21:05.

irregularities of disclosure and police non-disclosure to them. It

:21:05.:21:08.

it is not the position of the CPS doing nothing, they must do

:21:08.:21:12.

something now. The CPS plans to review the

:21:12.:21:15.

disclosure between police and the lawyers, will they be forced to

:21:15.:21:20.

review cold cases. With us now is Keir Starmer, the Director of

:21:20.:21:23.

Public Prosecutions. There has been an investigation into one case, a

:21:23.:21:27.

fall guy has been found, are you absolutely certain that there are

:21:27.:21:33.

no other cases in which people have been convicted on the basis of the

:21:33.:21:38.

evidence of undisclosed undercover police officers? Can I be clearer

:21:38.:21:43.

about what the Rose Inquiry looked at, because what was just reported

:21:43.:21:48.

was a part of it, but not the whole of it. Sir Christopher Rose was

:21:48.:21:53.

given access to all of the materials in relation to Ratcliffe-

:21:53.:21:56.

on-Soar, police and prosecutors and my staff. He looked at the entirety

:21:56.:22:01.

of the material. He wasn't asked a single question, as you would have

:22:01.:22:05.

us believe, but a series of questions. It he was asked about

:22:05.:22:10.

one particular case? He was. But we wanted to know the arrangements in

:22:10.:22:13.

place, the guidance, the approach we were taking, right or wrong, and

:22:14.:22:16.

he answered those questions, by saying that the guidance and

:22:16.:22:21.

approach is right. Can you be confident that was the only case of

:22:21.:22:26.

its kind? He said that he found individual failings in that

:22:26.:22:30.

particular case. Are you confident, are you confident that there are no

:22:30.:22:37.

other cases of this kind? He found no systemic problems. Are you

:22:37.:22:40.

confident? The approach I have taken is whenever anybody raises a

:22:41.:22:45.

case with me. Whether it is a defence solicitor, a judge, a

:22:45.:22:49.

prosecutor, or our inspectorate,ly always look at those issues. And

:22:49.:22:54.

where case -- I will always look at those issues. Other cases have been

:22:54.:22:58.

raised recently, and I will always look into them. Why don't you look

:22:59.:23:03.

at the whole lot? Because there was no finding of systemic failure,

:23:03.:23:11.

there is no point looking at the loss. Why not? Because there was no

:23:11.:23:14.

systemic failure. How many other cases are there? Much better to

:23:14.:23:21.

look at cases brought it attention for reasons. How many other cases

:23:21.:23:24.

are there? There is about half-a- dozen a year. It is not that many

:23:24.:23:28.

to look through, is it? There is no reason, based on the Rose Report,

:23:28.:23:34.

to consider anything has gone wrong in those cases. I'm not shutting my

:23:34.:23:38.

mind to the possibility of looking at those cases. Let's take the case

:23:38.:23:42.

of Jim Sutton, the undercover police officer? The case raised in

:23:42.:23:52.
:23:52.:23:53.

that report, goes back 15 years. 19196, it is not a recent case.

:23:53.:24:00.

a-- 1996, it is not a recent case. You appeared for the man? It was

:24:00.:24:03.

announced some press conference I wasn't at, he hasn't provided

:24:03.:24:07.

details to me. Do you recall the case? I won't talk about individual

:24:07.:24:11.

cases I may have been involved in 15 years ago. Let me ask you a

:24:11.:24:17.

simple question. Mike Short has raised a number of cases. A simple

:24:17.:24:20.

question, were you aware that the man who was suffering to appear on

:24:20.:24:24.

behalf of the man you were defending, as a defence witness, Mr

:24:24.:24:27.

Sutton, was an undercover police officer? I'm not prepared to enter

:24:28.:24:32.

into that discussion, on the hoof. This is an allegation, made during

:24:32.:24:35.

a press conference at lunchtime that I wasn't involved in. It is

:24:35.:24:38.

the sort of thing you would remember? There are hundreds of

:24:38.:24:42.

questions. The solicitor involved knows if he writes to me with

:24:42.:24:47.

details, as he has done in recent cases, I will look at it, that is

:24:47.:24:51.

what I promise him. It is not right for me to sit here on the basis of

:24:51.:24:55.

what he may have said at lunchtime and speculate on what might have

:24:55.:24:59.

gone on. You said yourself, this was 15 years ago, that does

:24:59.:25:05.

indicate, you say six cases a year that is 15 years ago. There could

:25:05.:25:09.

be dozens and dozens of similar cases involving undeclared

:25:09.:25:15.

undercover police officers? clear what b what went wrong in the

:25:15.:25:18.

Ratcliffe case, that is the authorisation and activities of

:25:18.:25:22.

Mark Kennedy were not made known to the prosecution when they should

:25:22.:25:26.

have been, that shouldn't happen again. If it is right 15 years ago

:25:26.:25:29.

there was a similar failing, I don't know without looking at it,

:25:29.:25:32.

it was raised at lunchtime today, I don't know without looking,

:25:32.:25:35.

obviously, that is something, if it is taken up with me, I will look

:25:35.:25:39.

into. Afterall, it was me that brought in Sir Christopher Rose, it

:25:39.:25:43.

was me that asked him to look at everything in this case, it is me

:25:43.:25:47.

that has put the entire report into the public domain so everyone can

:25:47.:25:50.

see it. I'm not against looking at these allegations. I can only take

:25:51.:25:58.

them as they come. You commissioned the inquiry, and the results of the

:25:58.:26:03.

inquiry have been disclosed, no-one can fault you. In the case of

:26:03.:26:09.

public confidence, isn't it better to look at every case? Had there

:26:09.:26:14.

been a finding of systemic problems or the approach or process that

:26:14.:26:18.

might have been sensele. Since it wasn't the better a-- sensible.

:26:18.:26:23.

Since it wasn't, the better approach was to look at it like

:26:23.:26:28.

this, the Crown Prosecution Service prosecutes about a million

:26:28.:26:34.

defendants, the prosecution rate is 86%. You don't have to look at a

:26:34.:26:39.

million, just half-a-dozen a year. As concerns are raised with me, I'm

:26:39.:26:44.

happy to look at them. 250 people discovered the limits of legitimate

:26:44.:26:48.

protest in Moscow today, they were arrested after being accused by

:26:48.:26:53.

police of obstructing traffic. The police swooped with cries of sit

:26:53.:26:58.

Kens, move, do not stand here, side walks are designed for movement. As

:26:58.:27:02.

so often in Russia, things aren't quite what they seem, there were

:27:02.:27:06.

elections at the weekend, in which Vladimir Putin did less well than

:27:06.:27:10.

he hoped for, but just well enough to ensure he still controls

:27:10.:27:15.

parliament. "fix" cry his opponents, hence the protests. Our diplomatic

:27:15.:27:18.

editor is here. What happened? Politics in Russia is getting

:27:19.:27:21.

interesting again. There were demonstrations yesterday, and there

:27:21.:27:25.

were demonstrations again today, in Moscow in particular. Some reports

:27:25.:27:29.

on the news agency suggesting as many as 5,000 people involved in

:27:29.:27:33.

these scenes. Without permission to be there, therefore, the police

:27:33.:27:37.

were intent on breaking it up. They waded in and started arresting

:27:37.:27:43.

people by the hundred. We also know that there were demonstrations in

:27:43.:27:48.

St Petersburg. Tahrir Square in January this ain't, it is a few

:27:48.:27:53.

thousands, this man giving an account of his grievances to a TV

:27:53.:27:58.

crew, carried off by the riot police. It isn't a huge populist

:27:58.:28:02.

thing on the pattern of the Arab Spring. It is important, for years

:28:02.:28:05.

Vladimir Putin and the people around him have managed to keep

:28:05.:28:08.

things really buckled down in Moscow. Now there are signs of him

:28:08.:28:14.

being booed at a recent sports event, these demonstrations, of a

:28:14.:28:17.

really serious public discontent with what is going on. He wants

:28:17.:28:22.

everything nice and calm for his run for the presidency in March.

:28:22.:28:27.

How is it playing with western observers? That is where this

:28:27.:28:31.

becomes much more significant and interesting than just those, so far,

:28:31.:28:35.

quite small numbers of people on the streets of Russia. There has

:28:35.:28:38.

been really some strong condemnation today. There were

:28:38.:28:43.

observers at these elections on Sunday, from the OSCE, the

:28:43.:28:45.

Organisation for Security and Co- operation in Europe, and they have

:28:45.:28:49.

said, pretty frankly, this was not a free and fair election. They have

:28:49.:28:52.

made various allegations about other candidates not being able to

:28:52.:28:56.

run. About dodgy practices, and they have been very clear about

:28:56.:29:00.

that. That brought condemnation today from the US a second, Hillary

:29:00.:29:07.

Clinton. We have serious concerns about the conduct of those

:29:07.:29:11.

elections, independent political parties such as PARNAS were denied

:29:11.:29:15.

the right to register. The preliminary report by the OSCE

:29:15.:29:20.

cites election day attempts to stuff ballot boxes, manipulate

:29:20.:29:26.

voter lists and other troubling practices. The EU has added its

:29:26.:29:29.

condemnation, there are other people too. The Russians are

:29:29.:29:34.

responding in a tetchy way. It all threatens is the reset Hillary

:29:34.:29:38.

Clinton herself announced at the beginning of the Obama

:29:38.:29:41.

administration, to Russian relations, all that is looking in

:29:41.:29:45.

danger. There is a possibility of going back to a more fractious and

:29:45.:29:49.

difficult relationship. Earlier I spoke to the former

:29:49.:29:53.

Russian Prime Minister, Mikhail Kasyanov, who is now a loader of

:29:53.:29:59.

the opposition PARNAS party, I asked him why people are choosing

:29:59.:30:05.

to come out in protest now? days ago it was a work voting day

:30:05.:30:15.
:30:15.:30:15.

of called elections, which we as the party PARNAS is not registered,

:30:15.:30:25.
:30:25.:30:26.

we say it is a non-election. This started off by the implementation

:30:26.:30:29.

of important democratic institutes that it should be a free election

:30:29.:30:33.

by Vladimir Putin's party. It is not free or fair. That is why the

:30:33.:30:36.

people reacted appropriately. I would say that is just the

:30:36.:30:41.

beginning of the end of the regime. Really, you think this is the

:30:41.:30:46.

beginning of the end of Putin's time in power? The whole process of

:30:46.:30:51.

disillusionment of the regime will not last overnight and will not

:30:51.:30:56.

happen tomorrow or in two days. But in two or three or four years,

:30:56.:31:01.

maximum, definitely, it would come to the end. But by that stage he

:31:01.:31:08.

could have got himself elected President? We shall see how all

:31:08.:31:12.

this develops. We have just quite a number of opposition leaders,

:31:12.:31:16.

growing, maturing, opposition leaders, and right now we are quite

:31:16.:31:21.

prepared to step in, but we don't have elections. That is why our

:31:21.:31:28.

political goal will be, would be, for the up coming period to create

:31:28.:31:31.

such public pressure on the authority, just to show them the

:31:31.:31:37.

way out. Not through, I would say, Arab revolutions, Arab Springs,

:31:37.:31:43.

which we can call Slavic Spring. There were also people protesting

:31:43.:31:47.

in favour of Mr Putin today, weren't there? Yes, we agree with

:31:47.:31:52.

that. In fact, we agree that approximately 30% of the population

:31:52.:31:59.

still supports Mr Putin, and his party. That's right. Almost 20% of

:31:59.:32:04.

people support communist party, but the other 50% of people, they

:32:04.:32:08.

cannot find their party, which could represent their political

:32:08.:32:12.

preferences. That is why right now we have a turning point. When the

:32:12.:32:16.

popularity of the regime and Mr Putin in particular, fall down

:32:16.:32:23.

dramatically, not to the zero, but from 70% down to 30%, actually 30%,

:32:23.:32:27.

and that is why, that is what I'm saying, that is the beginning of

:32:27.:32:34.

the end. When the west protests, as the west has protested today, the

:32:34.:32:38.

OSCE, Mrs Clinton, and the European Union, one organisation after

:32:38.:32:44.

another, says these elections, we think, were not fair, do you think

:32:44.:32:48.

President Putin will pay any attention at all? Absolutely he

:32:48.:32:54.

will pay. And he already is paying attention, those statements, which

:32:54.:32:59.

are absolutely elections were not free, elections were not fair. That

:32:59.:33:09.
:33:09.:33:09.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 57 seconds

:33:09.:34:06.

is absolutely the case. Also the Tell us what's up? It has a

:34:06.:34:12.

colourful feel to it. It is like a demolition derby, wheels going all

:34:12.:34:16.

over the place and candidates up all over the place. What is going

:34:16.:34:20.

on here for some months is finding a candidate that is not Mitt Romney,

:34:20.:34:25.

it is not that he's a bit dull or a bit insip pid or doesn't enspire

:34:25.:34:30.

anyone, for the Tea Party movement he's not right-wing enough. We have

:34:30.:34:34.

one candidate zooming up the polls, dropping a clanger and then down

:34:34.:34:41.

again. The last one was Herman Cain, the black businessman, who ran

:34:41.:34:44.

Godfather's Pizza, he was not a politician and spoke the language

:34:44.:34:48.

of the people, he made huge errors about the foreign policy. That

:34:48.:34:52.

wasn't the problem, women came forward with accusations of sexual

:34:52.:34:56.

harassment, a woman came forward and said she was having a long-

:34:56.:35:01.

running affair with him. He denied it but has quit. We have at the top,

:35:01.:35:06.

Newt Gingrich, the former Speaker, that clashed with Bill Clinton so

:35:06.:35:14.

much in that era. It is narrowing down to a two-horse race, and Mitt

:35:14.:35:20.

is there. I went to small town Iowa, clutching a DVD of a very famous

:35:20.:35:30.
:35:30.:35:31.

music video. The much-loved 60s film The Music

:35:31.:35:38.

Man is as American as a movie about small town American values could be.

:35:38.:35:42.

Lurking amid the smaltz is a moral, about dreams and deceptions, it

:35:42.:35:46.

happens to be set in the state that is the first battleground for the

:35:46.:35:52.

Republican presidential hopefuls. Surely there must be a lesson for

:35:52.:35:55.

them in this gem of Hollywood wisdom.

:35:55.:36:00.

Ploughing through the Midwest, the train used to be the best way to

:36:00.:36:04.

get to small towns like Mason City in northern Iowa, where the movie

:36:04.:36:09.

is set. It opens with salesmen travelling to the town, warning

:36:09.:36:15.

outsiders Iowa is a tough nut to crack. # Cash for the crackers and

:36:15.:36:18.

the pickles # Look what do you talk

:36:18.:36:20.

# What do you talk # Where do you get it

:36:20.:36:26.

# You can talk all you want to # But it is different than it was

:36:26.:36:32.

Now it is the Republicans who want to know the -- to be the President,

:36:32.:36:37.

who have to know their wares and sell them to a very conservative

:36:37.:36:40.

crowd. # He doesn't know the territory.

:36:40.:36:45.

will promise you this, I will work every day to try to make Washington

:36:45.:36:48.

DC as inconsequential in your life as I can.

:36:48.:36:53.

We need an American campaign, not a Republican campaign. She's not a

:36:53.:37:03.

politician. That's the difference. Because you see I'm a real person.

:37:03.:37:09.

Here is Harold Hill, the film's star, a conman out to persuade

:37:09.:37:14.

River City, that what it really needs is a boys' marching band,

:37:14.:37:18.

complete with uniforms, instruments, he will supply for a price.

:37:18.:37:22.

band will do it # A boys' band

:37:22.:37:25.

# River City has to have a boys band

:37:25.:37:33.

The author and composer of the The Music Man, Meredith Wilson was born

:37:33.:37:37.

here, it draws on his growing up memories of small town Iowa. The

:37:37.:37:42.

city has set up this museum in his honour. At the heart of the story

:37:42.:37:48.

is a tension, from the natural desire to believe in something, and

:37:48.:37:52.

the Iowa wariness of the superslick. Dough has run a business selling

:37:52.:37:57.

engine oil for 30 years, he has been a leading Republican for all

:37:57.:38:02.

that time. He has met many of the main figures of the past three

:38:02.:38:06.

decades, including Barack Obama, he wouldn't vote for him, but might

:38:06.:38:12.

have voted for him, but now feels he was conned. I feel like I was

:38:12.:38:17.

fooled, he's a very capable politician. Why fooled? Again, I

:38:17.:38:21.

believed him to be true to his core principles, and I believed he was

:38:21.:38:27.

going to try to make changes, and some of them, frankly, I thought we

:38:27.:38:33.

needed to do. I haven't seen the change that he told us was going to

:38:33.:38:38.

happen. All I have seen is the Government has gotten a lot bigger,

:38:38.:38:42.

a lot more intrusive, and a lot more expensive.

:38:42.:38:47.

One of his best-selling products is the Diplomat, a mixture of soap and

:38:47.:38:51.

oil. But he doesn't want his politicians slippery,'s looking for

:38:51.:39:01.
:39:01.:39:01.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 57 seconds

:39:01.:40:09.

is the same sense that it is as much about moral debegincy as bread

:40:09.:40:14.

and butter issues. Iowa isn't doing too badly, unemployment is better

:40:14.:40:18.

than the national average, and agriculture is booming with sales

:40:18.:40:23.

to China. Many conservatives are less worried about jobs and more

:40:23.:40:30.

about the $15 trillion deficit. In the slow empty towns like this,

:40:30.:40:33.

Americans feel a desperate need to change their country's direction,

:40:33.:40:36.

they are uncertain who of the candidates is up to the job. Bill

:40:36.:40:41.

is manager of a Christian radio station, and co-chair of the Iowa

:40:41.:40:45.

Republican party. He has to be coy about who he favours, but not about

:40:45.:40:52.

what's needed. When you look at the ordinary people of River City, they

:40:52.:40:59.

look at the total inability of our leaders in Washington to be able to

:40:59.:41:06.

solve the deficit, to be able to balance the budget, and do things

:41:06.:41:12.

that give the people confidence in our economy that's very frustrating.

:41:12.:41:17.

So, yes, our leaders can have a huge impact on the ability of

:41:17.:41:20.

ordinary people to do extraordinary things and get things done. We're

:41:20.:41:25.

going to do it, either way, but we need some help. Can you lead a

:41:25.:41:35.
:41:35.:41:35.

band? No. Are you a big liar? Are you a dirty rotten crook?

:41:36.:41:41.

Let me go you big liar. You're a wonderful kid, I thought some so

:41:41.:41:45.

from the first, that is why I wanted you in the band, so you

:41:45.:41:49.

would stop mope ping around and feeling sorry for hur -- moping

:41:49.:41:53.

around and feeling sorry for yourself. What band? I always think

:41:53.:41:59.

there is a band, kid. The conman, Harold Hill starts off

:41:59.:42:03.

cynically selling dreams, and ends up believing in them himself, the

:42:03.:42:07.

question is, do politicians do the same. When Republican candidates

:42:07.:42:11.

come here to Iowa, they have to appeal to hardline conservatives,

:42:11.:42:15.

the primary process is one of the things that forces American

:42:15.:42:25.
:42:25.:42:28.

politicians away from the centre While these Republican candidates

:42:28.:42:33.

are certainly not aiming for the centre, Ron, a former county Party

:42:33.:42:37.

Chairman, worries the public notices when they are not being

:42:37.:42:41.

frank enough. It is sinking in on them, the politicians are dancing

:42:41.:42:46.

around the issue, and I understand that, because things are going to

:42:46.:42:49.

get awful, and you are going to suffer. It is not a winning

:42:49.:42:56.

platform to get voters. You can't get elected with that. Honestly, I

:42:56.:43:03.

have to say they are not doing a bad job of slowly inculcating that

:43:03.:43:09.

view, people will have to accept it. Ron's fond of the Music Man, and

:43:09.:43:18.

still watches it sometimes, and thinks it promises redemption, even

:43:18.:43:21.

for politicians? He does produce a boys' band because he believes in

:43:21.:43:24.

it and the kids. There is a possibility that politicians

:43:24.:43:29.

starting out, I hate to compare them to a snake oil salesman, but

:43:29.:43:33.

you can, sometimes, that they might too come to have more sincere

:43:33.:43:39.

beliefs about what needs to be done. I hope in these trying times all of

:43:39.:43:45.

them do, things are kind of tense right now. In Iowa the fading

:43:45.:43:49.

sunlight barely warms the fields, so outsiders the brand of

:43:49.:43:53.

conservative favoured here can seem harsh, but it doesn't yet have a

:43:53.:43:56.

voice. There seems a quiet desperation, they don't, of course,

:43:56.:44:01.

want a conman, but they would welcome a bit more charisma, flair,

:44:01.:44:05.

a band leader worthy of the march ahead.

:44:05.:44:15.
:44:15.:44:15.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 57 seconds

:44:15.:45:18.

What a very odd piece. Tomorrow That's all for now, it was reported

:45:18.:45:24.

today that the man who gave us the West Wing, Charley Wilson's War and

:45:24.:45:29.

the Social Network, is starting to make a new series on a television

:45:29.:45:33.

newsroom, with a fictional programme called Newsnight, some

:45:33.:45:36.

might find it interesting, if it is well scripted and well acted, it

:45:36.:45:40.

might be as interesting as the average day in our office! Good

:45:41.:45:50.
:45:51.:46:17.

Hello, some rain for most of us overnight. But there is a spell of

:46:17.:46:22.

snow in Scotland. It could be icey across Lothian and the borders.

:46:22.:46:26.

That is where the Met Office warning is. Tomorrow sunshine and

:46:26.:46:30.

showers, most in the west. More sunshine than today. The winds

:46:30.:46:34.

strong and it will feel cold. It will force showers not just into

:46:34.:46:39.

the North West of England but the mid-lapbtsdz. East Anglia and the

:46:39.:46:42.

south -- Midlands. Temperatures may sneak up to double figures in the

:46:42.:46:46.

south west of England, the showers becoming fewer in the afternoon, as

:46:46.:46:50.

the winds gradually ease down a bit. It will be windy for most of the

:46:50.:46:53.

day in Wales, the showers continue across the north of the country.

:46:53.:46:57.

These are expected to be rain for the most part. Showers for the

:46:57.:47:00.

north of Northern Ireland, very windy for much of the day. Sunshine,

:47:00.:47:05.

it will feel cold. The cold in Scotland as well, wintryness in the

:47:05.:47:09.

hills over the showers. Quite a cold feel for the day really I

:47:09.:47:12.

suspect on Wednesday. It does briefly turn very much milder on

:47:12.:47:17.

Thursday. It will be a very strong south-westerly wind, gales, or even

:47:17.:47:20.

severe gales developing across the north. Further south you can see

:47:20.:47:26.

how the temperatures rise. It won't last long, the wind direction

:47:26.:47:30.

changes, later Thursday and into Friday. Drawing down colder air,

:47:30.:47:34.

The latest on a critical report blaming the police and prosecution service's handling of intelligence gathered by the undercover police officer Mark Kennedy. Plus, more on the wrangling over the future of the euro.


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