05/12/2011 Newsnight


05/12/2011

The programme hears first-hand testimony from rioters who took part in the summer unrest about why they took to the streets and turned to violence. Jeremy Paxman presents.


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Transcript


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They took to the streets, stoned the police, looted shops, set fires

:00:09.:00:14.

and visited chaos on previously sedate corners of the land. Who

:00:14.:00:18.

were the rioters of last summer? Their behaviour was criminal, but

:00:18.:00:21.

ground breaking intensive research, shows there may have been more to

:00:21.:00:26.

it. I actually warranted to burn the cars, and see it burn as well

:00:26.:00:30.

like, because the police, like, from what I have been through my

:00:30.:00:36.

whole life, police have caused hell for me, innit like. Looting fed on

:00:36.:00:40.

greed, but when they talk about their motive, many disclose deep

:00:40.:00:44.

politics. I love this country, however I hate the people who run

:00:44.:00:50.

it. What lessons can and should we learn to listening why they say

:00:50.:00:53.

they did what they did. Germany and France believe they

:00:53.:00:57.

have agreed a plan to save the euro, so why have they been warned about

:00:57.:01:07.
:01:07.:01:09.

their credit ratings tonight. This year's riots, were the biggest

:01:09.:01:13.

shock to this country in a generation. But who were these

:01:13.:01:17.

people willing to attack the police and burn down parts of their own

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neighbourhoods? The Government told us they were

:01:20.:01:24.

criminals, that gangs were key, rioting was insited on Facebook,

:01:24.:01:27.

but now the London School of Economics, and the Guardian

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Newspaper, have questioned 270 of the rioters and discovered another

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picture. A third of the rioters interviewed were unemployed, and

:01:33.:01:37.

only a third admitted to a previous only a third admitted to a previous

:01:37.:01:40.

conviction. Paul Lewis, who covered the riots

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for that newspaper made the report, and there is strong language in the

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film. The England riots were the first

:01:53.:01:56.

bout of civil unrest in a generation. Thousands of people

:01:56.:02:01.

took to the streets in towns and cities. The fires, looting and

:02:01.:02:04.

clashes with police, gave the impression of a country at war with

:02:04.:02:07.

itself. Four days of disturbances re-

:02:07.:02:12.

resulted in five people dead, and more than 4,000 arrested.

:02:12.:02:18.

Across England, homes, shops and residential streets were left

:02:18.:02:22.

unrecoginsable. But why did it happen? This was not political

:02:22.:02:27.

protest, or a riot about protest, or about politics, this was

:02:27.:02:31.

commoner garden thieving, robbing and looting, we don't need an

:02:31.:02:35.

inquiry to tell us that. decision to not hold an inquiry

:02:35.:02:40.

into the riots, left a host of un'd questions. Four months on, no-one

:02:40.:02:45.

seems to -- unanswered questions. Four months on, no-one seems to

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know why the riots, that started here in Tottenham, took place. Our

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teams of researchers have interviewed 270 people who rioted

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in London, Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester. Their testimony has

:02:59.:03:01.

undergone rigorous academic analysis, giving an insiebgt into

:03:01.:03:04.

why people took to the streets. You are about to hear their stories, in

:03:04.:03:14.
:03:14.:03:16.

their words. I was at a gig, I was just standing

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outside having a cigarette, I was wondering why the crowd was

:03:19.:03:29.
:03:29.:03:30.

gathering. That's when I found out it was a protest about Mark Dugg an

:03:30.:03:39.

being shot by police. Mark D Dugg an had been shot dead by police two

:03:39.:03:44.

days earlier, rumours had led to thoughts that he had been

:03:44.:03:50.

assassinated. Locals demonstrated at a police station. That was the

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first I had heard that Mark Dugg an had been shot, and I thought, what,

:03:56.:04:00.

another injustice by the police. Supporters of the family waited

:04:00.:04:04.

outside the police station for a senior officer, who never arrived.

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After three hours, patience ran out. Two police cars had been trashed, a

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group of youths had pushed a police car into the road and put black bin

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liners on it and set it alight. People were standing around

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cheering watching the police car go up in flames. I was just standing

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talking to other people, and shoved the other car on the road and put

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black bin liners there, I leaned in and set it alight. Then a guy came

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across the road and I stood back and watched the car go up. I stood

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there excited, fu lock them, lock the scum bass standards, it was an

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opportunity, I had never set alight to a police car before, and it was

:04:55.:05:00.

just, lock it, join in. It was a police car, I know what they stand

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for. I have been battered before, I now the injustices they caused.

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Alex was not a hooded youth, a white man, in his 30s, from south

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London. Within minutes, the image of the blazing car began

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circulating on mobile phones and the internet. It wasn't just black

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people, at the end of the day. It was the people from all backgrounds.

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Young, old, even little kids were there. I was literally talking to

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people I would never talk to in my life. People being nice and

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friendly and chatting to me, handing me cans, handing me a

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spliff, going, yeah, lock the police. No-one was talking about

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rioting or looting. Nothing like that, we were all sitting there and

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watching the police cars burn. It was like Bonfire Night on the high

:05:45.:05:55.
:05:55.:06:00.

street. But the party atmosphere didn't last for long. People from

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surrounding boroughs poured into Tottenham, fires raged, police came

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under heavy attack. Shops were ransacked. The police had lost

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control. Police are calling for calm in Tottenham in North London.

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When I was getting pictures on the news, they were just destroying

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cars, they were within 10-20 feet from office, vandalising vehicles,

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throwing bricks and the police weren't doing nothing. There was no

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authority. It looked like we could have run of the streets. It started

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going in a chain reaction, literally it started at one end,

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and you know, the next valuable shop to go target, that was already

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getting broken into. Everyone was helping each other,

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holding up the shutters, carrying the short people inside. I saw

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little kids there I was thinking, what? I thought, I want some money,

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what? I thought, I want some money, I want some money.

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I just went into a shop and I was like, it's already broken, this is

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a jacket I don't have, and let me pick it up and take it. The people

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we interviewed openly admitted they were opportunists, this was their

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chance, in their words, to get free stuff. It felt like Christmas had

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come early, just being able to take all the nice things that you want.

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When you get a chance to put your hands on things like that, you feel

:07:34.:07:43.
:07:44.:07:46.

good. As the lawlessness spread across London, the impression

:07:46.:07:49.

emerged of a city gripped by looting. The Government blamed

:07:49.:07:54.

social media for the contagion. But the rioters we spoke to were not

:07:54.:07:58.

using Facebook and Twitter. It was BlackBerry phones that were the

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main tools for organising the riots. The private messages, known as

:08:03.:08:07.

broadcasts and pings being shared along chains of friends, were

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reaching tens of thousands of phones, not only in the UK. Me and

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a couple of my friends were on holiday people were sending

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broadcasts and a couple of my friends pinged me and told me what

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was happening. The viral messages reaching Daniel, included images of

:08:28.:08:31.

the burning police cars, and rallying calls for people to take

:08:31.:08:35.

revenge for the death of Mark Duggan, they loss gave a list of

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where to meet and when. As soon as I saw that, I was happy. For some

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reason I just wanted to be there. I actually wanted to turn the cars

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and see it burn as well. The police, from what I have been through my

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whole life, like, police have caused hell for me, innit, like. We

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all cut our holiday and came straight back to England.

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I always thought to myself, when I was on holiday, there is a chance

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like this never come again. I saw it as my opportunity, now was the

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opportunity to get revenge. It wasn't even just the police, it was

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the whole Government, everything they do, they make things harder

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for us. They make it hard for us to get jobs, even when we do get

:09:27.:09:31.

benefits, they cut it down, like some people are trying to change

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their lives and go to university, and they are raising up the prices,

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and then people can't afford university, so they go back to

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selling drugs and stuff, and then you want to arrest them and say,

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you don't understand why all of these young people are acting like

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this. Really and truly, they are the reason why we are the way we

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are, innit, and I knew if we get back to England, and we actually

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damage, like, do a lot of damage to the point where forget all the

:10:02.:10:07.

benefits they have cut off, they would have to pay twenty-times

:10:07.:10:17.
:10:17.:10:17.

worse than that. So we just our way of getting revenge.

:10:17.:10:21.

We thought, OK, you want to financially hurt us, we will

:10:21.:10:25.

financially hurt you by burning down buildings. I saw McDonalds get

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set on fire, and then it was completely set alight. I have

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petrol bombed it, eventhough it was set alight. I felt good.

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Many of the people we spoke to travelled to more than one location,

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they were searching for the disorder. Sometimes crossing the

:10:43.:10:53.
:10:53.:10:57.

city. When we first got there, we saw police, they had their shields

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up, running. We thought, OK, they are on the defensive. So we just

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started picking up bricks and bottles and threw it at them.

:11:08.:11:18.
:11:18.:11:22.

Locking bankers. It felt like Call Of Duty. It made

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me feel odd as well, I knew it was somebody's mum or dad, I didn't

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care, it was a chance to get revenge and I took it with both

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hands. Our streets. It was a war. And for the first time we were in

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control. We had the police scare, innit, there was no more us being

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scared of the police. We actually had a choice of letting officers

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off the hook, off seriously injuring them. I threw a brick at a

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police woman, I saw her drop, I could have easily brick her again,

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I didn't, because it was a woman. Scores of rioters said they had no

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interest in looting. I wasn't there for the robbing. I was there for

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revenge, innit. I will always remember the day that we had the

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police and the Government scared. For once, they were living on, they

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felt how we felt, they felt threatened by us. That was the best

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three days of my life. As the riots spread across England, the

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television pictures game the impression of mindless criminal --

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gave the impression of mineless criminality. The findings of our

:12:43.:12:47.

study found it to be more complex. Those involved said they felt like

:12:47.:12:53.

they were taking part in anti- police riots.

:12:53.:12:57.

When we came across a police car, it felt like we hit the jackpot. We

:12:58.:13:03.

smashed it, we petrol bombed it, we thought we would violate, just like

:13:03.:13:10.

they violate us. They arrest people for no reason,

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they stop and check us for no reason. We thought, like I get, get

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our own back. That's what we did. We enjoyed it, I felt no guilt,

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nothing. I know it is only one less police car, I know when they come

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back, just seeing their faces. I would have loved to have seen their

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faces, to be honest with you. Obviously rioters might seek to

:13:32.:13:36.

justify their actions after the event. But familiar themes kept

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arising, unprompted by our researchers. Rioters repeatedly

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expressed frustrations about their daily interactions with police. In

:13:44.:13:49.

their words, they felt hasled, bullied, unable to walk down their

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streets without being stopped and searched.

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Me and my mum were walking home, my younger brother and a few of his

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friends, who have been in trouble with the police for a while. But

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they weren't doing anything, they literally just met up in front of

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my mum's block of flats. The police get out and question my wror

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brother and his friends, my mum said, why do you he need to talk to

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him. They were so disrespectful to my mum, and my mum was polite,

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she's not a rude woman, they pushed her aside, sort of thing. Then they

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pushed me aside. And they took him into the van, and they beat him up

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and broke his nose. Some people would say because he's a

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troublemaker, that it is fair, but it is not.

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I have seen my friends get beaten up in front of me by the police

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officer. But what can you do, you can't turn around and say I will

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write a statement or send off a letter. You never get a reply or

:14:53.:14:58.

nothing ever gets done about it. Time and again the rioters we

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interviewed complained the police did not treat them as equals, they

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said officers were rude, impolite, disrespectful. It didn't matter if

:15:06.:15:09.

they were in Liverpool, London or Birmingham, they felt it was their

:15:09.:15:13.

chance to get their own back. my point of view, everybody just

:15:13.:15:18.

wanted to fight with the police. There weren't no looters or anyone

:15:18.:15:21.

robbing, there was just shops getting smashed up. Any excuse to

:15:21.:15:26.

go wild, really. And then it is people who like being battered by

:15:26.:15:32.

the police, and they want payback. Things likes that. Police may have

:15:32.:15:38.

been the main target of the riots, but the complaints didn't end there.

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The scrapping of the education maintenance allowance, the focus of

:15:41.:15:46.

protests last winter, was repeatedly mentioned. It was part

:15:46.:15:50.

of a bigger picture, people we interviewed felt they were getting

:15:50.:15:54.

a raw deal from Government. They spoke of youth service closures,

:15:54.:15:57.

rising unemployment, and cuts to benefits. Almost half were in

:15:57.:16:01.

education. And some had taken part in the student fee protests. Did it

:16:01.:16:06.

achieve anything, we had a protest the other day, did it achieve

:16:06.:16:09.

anything? No, they will put the university fees up, they will make

:16:09.:16:14.

it really hard for people to get anywhere in life. To get go from

:16:14.:16:20.

what my sister paid, I think it was a grand in tuition fees, she's six

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years older than me, I paid three grand, they want nine now. You have

:16:24.:16:28.

tripled it once and again. And you expect everyone to just sit back

:16:28.:16:34.

and take it on the chin. For them to cut away things like EMA,

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learning grants loans and up the university prices means people

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resort back to the same thing. love this country, however I hate

:16:43.:16:49.

the people who run it. David Cameron has never experienced a day

:16:49.:16:54.

on the street or a day jobless, or being on job seekers.

:16:54.:16:58.

At the time the consensus was people were rioting without a cause.

:16:58.:17:03.

But those we spoke to made this much clear, the riots did not

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happen in a political vacuum. course there was a reason behind it,

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why would it all kick off. It wouldn't kick off for no reason.

:17:16.:17:19.

Four nights of sustained rioting destroyed parts of England's

:17:19.:17:24.

suburbs. The response from police was swift and hard. More than 4,000

:17:24.:17:30.

people were arrested. They would face harsher than usual sentences.

:17:30.:17:33.

The Government's response has been what they have called a war on

:17:33.:17:39.

gangs. At the heart of all the violence sits the issue of street

:17:39.:17:43.

gangs. Our research has found no evidence to suggest gangs organised

:17:43.:17:48.

the riots. If anything, the small proportion of gang members who were

:17:48.:17:52.

present behaved in an atypical manner, across England, postcode

:17:53.:17:57.

rivalries and gang hostilities dissolved for what was effectively

:17:57.:18:02.

a four-day truce. You had different areas that had gang-related

:18:02.:18:06.

problems working together, everyone put their problems away for that

:18:06.:18:11.

week. They were able to get along, because we had one thing in common,

:18:11.:18:15.

and that was to hurt the Government and the police. It wasn't really

:18:15.:18:19.

gang-related. On those few nights of the riots, everybody united. I

:18:19.:18:23.

think we all had the same feeling, we all had the common feeling and

:18:23.:18:27.

we expressed it. For those whose lives were ruined by the riots,

:18:27.:18:34.

that sense of unity will be hard to fathom. Rioters told us, they

:18:34.:18:38.

regreted that parts of their own communities had been destroyed.

:18:38.:18:41.

really didn't have to be there. I really didn't have to be there, I

:18:41.:18:44.

have enough trainers as it is, and hats as it is. It didn't really

:18:44.:18:48.

make a difference in my life. feel sorry for people who have

:18:48.:18:50.

little businesses and that, I felt that was completely wrong, I

:18:51.:18:54.

completely disagree with that. could have been setting fire to a

:18:54.:18:58.

house that had babies in there, that is what made me stop. The fact

:18:58.:19:02.

that I didn't want to hurt the innocents, but in way, that was

:19:02.:19:06.

good, because as soon as I stopped bricking houses I went straight

:19:06.:19:11.

into police cars, police officers. Even when rioters expressed regret,

:19:11.:19:17.

they showed little remorse for their attacks on police. Setting

:19:17.:19:21.

fire to the car, I don't feel guilty about it at all. I would do

:19:21.:19:26.

it again. Hopefully there will be riots coming up soon. Why should I

:19:26.:19:30.

respect them, if they don't respect me, for what reason, I would do it

:19:30.:19:33.

again. I would probably do two police cars if I had the

:19:33.:19:41.

opportunity, to be honest with you. Do you have any regrets? Yeah. But

:19:41.:19:47.

that I didn't do more damage. I warrant -- wanted to burn down the

:19:47.:19:57.
:19:57.:19:59.

Time to talk to the minister in charge of the police, Nick Herbert.

:19:59.:20:02.

Do you think it might have been wiser if the Prime Minister had

:20:02.:20:05.

waited to establish the facts before saying it was all just

:20:05.:20:09.

criminality and gangs? We know that three quarters of those who have

:20:09.:20:14.

been brought before the courts did actually have previous convictions.

:20:14.:20:17.

So there is absolutely no doubt that these were people who had been

:20:17.:20:22.

in trouble before, and we know. Doesn't that say something about

:20:22.:20:26.

those arrested, this is a broader sample? It is right to say it is

:20:26.:20:30.

about criminality when you are talking about people on the streets,

:20:30.:20:35.

looting, damaging the property and attacking the police. Nobody denies

:20:35.:20:39.

it was criminality, and awful in many cases. Wasn't the most

:20:39.:20:43.

striking thing there, the sense of alienation that came through, and

:20:43.:20:47.

the particular focus upon getting back at the police who they felt

:20:47.:20:51.

had been oppressing them? I actual low don't sop accept that the

:20:51.:20:55.

police behave in that way. -- I actually don't accept that the

:20:55.:21:00.

police behave in that way. There are particular cases discussed in

:21:00.:21:05.

Tottenham being discussed in a different place. But elsewhere it

:21:05.:21:09.

was much more about copycat action, opportunism. Looting, some of that

:21:09.:21:13.

came about in your report. If we go back to the fact that three quarter

:21:13.:21:17.

of the people who took part in this, or who have been brought before the

:21:17.:21:20.

courts, actually had criminal records. The fact that they don't

:21:20.:21:24.

like the police is hardly a surprise. Shock, horror, criminals

:21:24.:21:28.

don't like the police. This is much broader research than simply those

:21:28.:21:31.

people who appeared before the court. This is 270 people who

:21:31.:21:35.

participated in the riots, some of whom, a very small proportion,

:21:35.:21:40.

about 30 of whom may have been arrested and indeed convicted, the

:21:40.:21:45.

remaining 240 of whom were not. Hold on, as you said, in the report,

:21:45.:21:49.

the report itself said, a third hadn't been in trouble with the law.

:21:49.:21:52.

It was interesting that your report put it that way. You could have

:21:52.:21:58.

said that it meant that two-thirds had a previous conviction. It is by

:21:58.:22:02.

their own testimony. In the same order as three quarters brought

:22:02.:22:06.

before the court with a previous conviction, this research shows

:22:06.:22:10.

these people were people who had been in trouble with the law before.

:22:10.:22:14.

That is air own statements too. Do you think -- that is their own

:22:14.:22:19.

statements. Do you think they are making excuses then? If you look at

:22:19.:22:21.

the research and what people were offering as the reasons they did

:22:21.:22:24.

things, including a dislike of the police and the Government. That was

:22:24.:22:26.

very different to the reasons that the public gave for why they

:22:26.:22:30.

thought it would happen. The public were saying. The public weren't

:22:30.:22:34.

rioting? The public were pointing to other issues, including social

:22:34.:22:38.

breakdown, family breakdown, the public were much more inclined to

:22:38.:22:42.

say. It is the testimony of the rioters themselves? The rioters

:22:42.:22:45.

were reluctant to accept responsibility, what they wanted to

:22:45.:22:51.

do was blame others. With us now is the former Metropolitan Police

:22:51.:22:56.

commissioner, Lord Ian Blair, David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, Liz

:22:56.:23:01.

Pilgrim, whose job was looted and vandalised during the riots, and

:23:01.:23:06.

Professor Tim Newburn, and a youth leader from South-East London. Miss

:23:06.:23:09.

Pilgrim what did you make of it, given your shop was wrecked by

:23:09.:23:13.

these people, what did you make of what you heard there? I think that

:23:13.:23:18.

the police didn't keep control that night. Sure. But the causes, what

:23:18.:23:24.

they said about why they were rioting? I think that, in Ealing

:23:24.:23:30.

itself, it wasn't a political proprotest, it was definitely

:23:30.:23:33.

people that -- political protest, it was definitely people who took

:23:33.:23:37.

the opportunity to ransack my street, set fire to the building,

:23:37.:23:42.

make people lose their homes. Somebody died that night. It is no

:23:42.:23:48.

excuse, really, is there, David Lammy, for what happened. You are

:23:48.:23:53.

the MP for Tottenham, you know xapd there, there is no excuse for it?

:23:53.:23:57.

would want to emphasise the 20,000 or so young people in Haringey who

:23:57.:24:01.

stayed at home, and the 240,000 people in the London Borough

:24:01.:24:06.

ofHaringey who were frightened in their homes. I do think that the

:24:06.:24:11.

cohort of people that the Guardian have spoken to are important, and

:24:11.:24:15.

unless we look into their eyes and hear their voices this will happen

:24:15.:24:19.

again. I do think when they talk about stop and search, it is

:24:20.:24:24.

important to recognise in the most diverse constituency in the country,

:24:24.:24:28.

that there is an acceleration between, particularly for Muslim

:24:28.:24:33.

youth and for black youth, in stop and search, at this point in time.

:24:33.:24:37.

The Government have changed the rules on that. Also we have a

:24:37.:24:42.

Metropolitan Police with only 868 black officers and 32,000 across

:24:42.:24:46.

the Met. That is an issue. Do you recognise that, Nick Herbert?

:24:46.:24:51.

goes to trust. I completely reject David's suggestion and lay this at

:24:51.:24:55.

the door of Government changing rules. We scrap the reform that

:24:55.:24:59.

said that the police had to record a stop and account, actually the

:24:59.:25:06.

Met have chopbs, as is their right, not to do that in London. We have

:25:06.:25:09.

reduced a couple of the specific bits of information that have to be

:25:09.:25:13.

provided on the stop and search form that still has to be completed.

:25:13.:25:16.

Isn't it a point about how the police are seen, do you accept

:25:16.:25:19.

that? I accept that by the testimony of the people involved

:25:19.:25:23.

there, they say they disliked the police, I make the point again,

:25:23.:25:26.

these are people in trouble with the police, it is not surprising.

:25:26.:25:30.

The testimony that you heard there from people who took part in the

:25:30.:25:35.

riots, you didn't, but you know people who did. Does it ring true?

:25:35.:25:39.

I think definitely, I think it is a huge problem when it comes to

:25:39.:25:42.

relationships between young people and the police force. I think the

:25:42.:25:45.

fact that a lot of the young people were talking in the film about how

:25:45.:25:49.

they hated the police and they felt they were mistreated by the police.

:25:49.:25:53.

I'm a young person who has been through that situation. I have been

:25:53.:25:57.

stopped and searched at least six people, and I'm one of the young

:25:57.:25:59.

people contributing to making society better in our communities.

:26:00.:26:03.

That is a huge problem. With the stop and search it is a major

:26:04.:26:08.

problem with the slips, that was one way to make sure if we thought

:26:08.:26:11.

we were treated wrong bit police we could follow that up. The fact it

:26:11.:26:15.

is scrapped, and the police are saying go to the police station to

:26:15.:26:18.

get a slip about what is going on, everything is prolonged. There is a

:26:18.:26:21.

lot of young people who have been faeked, and there is a lot of young

:26:21.:26:24.

people -- affected and there is a lot of young people who are in

:26:24.:26:28.

situations where the police has treated them wrong and they don't

:26:28.:26:33.

know where to go to sort it out. Were you surprised by what you

:26:33.:26:37.

found? I was a little, at the outset I thought that the subject

:26:37.:26:40.

of policing would come up. I thought some of the issues of

:26:40.:26:45.

whatever we want to call it, alienation, and so forth, would

:26:45.:26:49.

have come up. I was surprised by the strength of it and the

:26:49.:26:54.

frequency we heard it. We heard it in every city we did research and

:26:54.:26:57.

across the demographic, men and women, young and old. Do you think

:26:57.:27:03.

they were making excuses? Yes, in part I think they were. One cannot

:27:03.:27:08.

deny that certainly some people that we spoke to were undoubtedly

:27:08.:27:12.

trying to rationalise away some of their behaviour. Nonetheless, I

:27:12.:27:16.

think the care with think the research was done, the care with

:27:16.:27:21.

which the analysis was done, leads us to feel that the frequency and

:27:21.:27:30.

very hemmence we heard was not just a rationalisation and something we

:27:30.:27:34.

have to take seriously. I agree with Nick Herbert, it is an

:27:34.:27:39.

excellent piece of research, as I would expect from the LSE, it has

:27:39.:27:44.

the least surprising result, I don't want to sound like Blackadder,

:27:44.:27:50.

the American Indians were found not to like General Custard. People do

:27:50.:27:54.

not like police, because this is the group that they are most in

:27:54.:27:58.

contact. I'm pleased with the fact that 73% of those rioters were

:27:58.:28:03.

stopped and searched last year, the right people were stopped and

:28:03.:28:07.

searched. Are you saying there is no problem? There is always room

:28:07.:28:10.

for improvement. The fact is the police service in London has driven

:28:10.:28:16.

crime down year after year since 1993. One of theishs you will end

:28:16.:28:20.

up with is a -- issues you will end up with, is a group of people who

:28:20.:28:25.

are entirely, with the difficulties they have over employment, over the

:28:25.:28:32.

EMA, a lot of anger is there. can't stop just because you look

:28:32.:28:36.

like, or where you are from. Nobody is suggesting here that people are

:28:36.:28:40.

being stopped and searched, there is nothing racial in these riots,

:28:40.:28:44.

this is about the group of people, who I think Tim will recognise, as

:28:44.:28:49.

the phrase that criminologyists have used for a long time, called

:28:49.:28:52.

"police property", these are the people, if I took you to a police

:28:52.:28:56.

station or a prison, you would find three quarters of the people there

:28:56.:28:59.

with previous conviction, you would find three quarters of the people

:28:59.:29:04.

have educational needs. They are terribly badly educated, but...The

:29:04.:29:09.

Point about the police is they deal with the symptoms, the political

:29:09.:29:13.

part. You don't make anything of the political analysis? I make a

:29:13.:29:17.

huge amount of political analysis. These are a group of people who are

:29:17.:29:21.

the most deprived in the country. We need to help them, we need to

:29:21.:29:24.

actually get right behind the educational processes. They are

:29:25.:29:29.

being helped by the police, they are being beaten up by the police?

:29:29.:29:34.

They are not being beaten up by the police. You are saying those people

:29:34.:29:38.

are lying? You have to recognise a context in which over 300 people

:29:38.:29:42.

have died in police custody, and not one police officer has felt the

:29:42.:29:47.

force of the law. You have got to recognise the force with which

:29:47.:29:51.

there are communities in London, who feel that is a grave injustice.

:29:51.:29:56.

Of course, in the context of knife crime, it is understandable that

:29:56.:30:00.

there is stop and search, but it needs to be intelligence-led, and

:30:00.:30:03.

it is very difficult, if police cannot tell the difference between

:30:03.:30:08.

a young man that is on the way to the gym, wearing a hoodie, and a

:30:08.:30:11.

young man wearing a hoodie who is has a knife. Has the problem we

:30:11.:30:15.

have with the Met in London. Nobody should be stopped on the grounds of

:30:15.:30:19.

their ethnicity, that would be wrong. That is happening. We know

:30:19.:30:23.

there is similar deprivation in Sheffield n Bradford, on Tyneside n

:30:23.:30:26.

Glasgow, Edinburgh. They didn't riot there. These people who took

:30:26.:30:31.

part in all of this, they are not the victims. The victims are people

:30:31.:30:35.

like Liz, whose property was damaged. We know that, we watched

:30:35.:30:39.

on our television screens, people walk out of shops with armfuls of

:30:39.:30:44.

goods, people walking away with plasma TVs. People who lost their

:30:44.:30:47.

moral compass. And we should take care not to lose our's, and think

:30:47.:30:52.

actually there is any kind of excuse for this behaviour. There is

:30:52.:30:57.

not. What do you think has gone wrong, your shop was looted?

:30:57.:31:00.

Totally trashed, smashed, everything pulled out. What do you

:31:00.:31:05.

sell in your shop? Baby clothes. That was looted. Some of which are

:31:06.:31:10.

aspirational brands, some of which are hand made knitted booties.

:31:10.:31:17.

did they do to it? They completely ransacked it, smashed everything up.

:31:17.:31:23.

Stole everything they could carry. Walked out on to the reen and

:31:23.:31:26.

dropped things. -- The green and dropped things. When you think

:31:26.:31:30.

about what happened, what do you think has gone wrong in our

:31:30.:31:34.

society? It is so complex, and it gets me really, really upset,

:31:34.:31:42.

thinking that there isn't an answer, there's the fact that people feel

:31:42.:31:49.

they have no future, that there is no consequences to their action,

:31:49.:31:53.

that there really is no moral guideline for them any more. There

:31:53.:31:59.

is no hope. And I think that we're all to blame. It's schools it's the

:31:59.:32:08.

police, it's society in general. We all try to aspire to certain brands

:32:08.:32:12.

and. You are playing the individual's concerns, this is an

:32:12.:32:16.

individual judgment, and the collective norms of behaviour

:32:16.:32:20.

changed during the riots, obviously, but each action is the consequence

:32:21.:32:25.

of an individual decision, isn't it? Yes it is. Can I just say as

:32:25.:32:29.

well, it is very poignant in that film that people, some of them

:32:29.:32:33.

regreted their actions. And that it was that moment. Some didn't?

:32:34.:32:38.

there were moments I think when people just got caught up with what

:32:38.:32:47.

was happening. We can't just brush everybody with the same statement.

:32:47.:32:52.

We have a model that is policing by consent, and it seems to me that

:32:52.:32:58.

the absence of policing, right across London, led to a situation

:32:58.:33:00.

in which that ethical and moral decision, that individuals have to

:33:00.:33:08.

make, and account for themselves, was allowed to be at large. This is

:33:08.:33:12.

the failure of the police on certain nights? In successive

:33:12.:33:16.

nights. If they kept control on the Saturday night it wouldn't have

:33:16.:33:18.

escalated. What do you think has gone wrong in the society? Nobody

:33:18.:33:23.

is born a criminal. To just say that a lot of the people who

:33:23.:33:26.

weren't part of the riots, they were reoffenders, you have to ask

:33:26.:33:30.

why did they reoffend in the first place. A lot of those people are

:33:30.:33:33.

not being helped when they are showing the symptoms of needing

:33:33.:33:37.

help, wherever that may be, in the education system, if it when it

:33:37.:33:39.

comes to the relationship between the police and the young people,

:33:39.:33:42.

something needs to be done. What has changed within our society is

:33:42.:33:45.

nobody really wants to take the rap for what is going on. I think when

:33:45.:33:49.

it comes to young people, a lot of young people do ask for help, it

:33:49.:33:52.

may not anybody a verbal conversation, at the same time a

:33:52.:33:56.

lot of young people show symptoms that they need some type of

:33:56.:33:59.

interaction. A lot of people tend to point the finger at young people

:33:59.:34:02.

and say they should be responsible for their actions. We are not doing

:34:02.:34:06.

this out of nowhere, we are learning it from people we saw on

:34:06.:34:09.

tell ves, the bankers the politicians, the police officers.

:34:09.:34:12.

There is no respect anywhere, is there. It is white collar crime,

:34:12.:34:18.

but because they are wearing suits is it OK for them to get away it.

:34:18.:34:21.

Just baulk young people weren't very organised and wearing hoodies

:34:22.:34:25.

we should condemn them. If the justice system is putting some

:34:25.:34:29.

people away, they should be treated with the same brush, no matter a

:34:29.:34:34.

young people or politician. Young people took that on board t may not

:34:34.:34:41.

be on a conscious level, but a sub conscious level, that if they can

:34:41.:34:48.

do it, then we can get away with it. Not awful them were young.

:34:48.:34:53.

Offending should always have consequence, a white collar

:34:53.:34:56.

criminal or those in anti-social behaviour. We need a system that

:34:56.:35:00.

sends those clear messages. One of the things that happened after this

:35:00.:35:03.

disorder is the criminal justice system responded with unusual

:35:03.:35:06.

certainty in dealing with people. It sent the right message, actually.

:35:06.:35:10.

Some of them may have got it. is true, what is it going to

:35:10.:35:18.

achieve by banging people up? you are saying, that exemplary

:35:18.:35:21.

sentences should not have been handed down, those are matters for

:35:21.:35:25.

the courts. I completely disagree. You have to send that signal to

:35:25.:35:30.

people that the behaviour is not acceptable. I don't know if simply

:35:30.:35:33.

trying to brush these people aside is the right way to do it. None of

:35:33.:35:39.

it should stop us doing the all the things. Restorative justice is very

:35:39.:35:42.

important. There is an important distinction, it is not to say, of

:35:42.:35:46.

course when people break the law, in the most extreme ways there

:35:46.:35:50.

should be punishments. It is wrong to shift from that to thinking the

:35:50.:35:54.

criminal justice system is the solution to the problems we face.

:35:54.:35:58.

Nobody is saying it is. And actually. That is what you were

:35:58.:36:00.

saying just then, it was. I was saying that offending has

:36:00.:36:03.

consequences and whether you are a white collar criminal or somebody

:36:03.:36:06.

on the streets, I don't think, by the way, that people who were

:36:06.:36:12.

looting at the time thought they were doing so because of expenses

:36:12.:36:18.

scandals or City scandals. Young people are getting arrested and put

:36:18.:36:22.

away, and by the time they are coming out it is 19, everything

:36:22.:36:27.

they need to turn them into an adult and turn them into a help to

:36:27.:36:31.

society they are not getting the chances. Reform of the penal system,

:36:31.:36:34.

I agree it is not enough. Ian Blair, one question, Liz has already

:36:34.:36:39.

raised this question, and so has David Lammy, and it is commonly

:36:39.:36:45.

held, the police failed to act quickly enough. You weren't there,

:36:45.:36:49.

none of us was taking commands then, or giving commands then. But now

:36:49.:36:55.

the talk is, of issuing the police with water canon, and if necessary

:36:55.:36:58.

plastic bullets, is that the answer? If that is the answer it is

:36:58.:37:01.

the wrong question. Neither of those tactics would have been any

:37:01.:37:06.

use in these riots. Plastic bullets and water canon are designed to

:37:06.:37:09.

keep people away from a particular place, they use them in France and

:37:09.:37:15.

all the rest of it. To try to chase rioters moving quickly around

:37:15.:37:19.

London with that kind of equipment would be nonsense. What I want to

:37:19.:37:23.

contribute, one further point, which is the concentration in the

:37:23.:37:29.

Guardian today about the police, is an answer about the symptoms.Y, the

:37:29.:37:33.

police could have done better and they should been there more quickly,

:37:33.:37:37.

and better intelligences, and Liz's shop should not have been ruined.

:37:37.:37:40.

But the answer lies much further back in who this group of people

:37:40.:37:43.

are, they are the same group of people sitting in prison now, with

:37:43.:37:48.

poor educational standards. have made that point. It is

:37:48.:37:51.

terribly important. Surely other people might say the police are a

:37:51.:37:55.

lightning conductor for a problem clearly identified by rioters and

:37:55.:37:59.

observers as being them and us. police are engaged with this group

:37:59.:38:03.

and will go on being engaged with this group forever, that is what

:38:03.:38:06.

policing does. It does it every country in the world t deals with a

:38:06.:38:11.

group of people who behave in a criminal form. If the Government

:38:11.:38:19.

wants more robust policing, then I personallyam concerned -- I

:38:19.:38:27.

personally I am concerned. latest news in the euro seems to

:38:27.:38:31.

have convinced those who move the markets, for now at least. Nicolas

:38:31.:38:34.

Sarkozy and Angela Merkel agreed today they need a new treaty n

:38:34.:38:39.

which those who break the rules sufferam penalties, they want a new

:38:39.:38:43.

bailout fund. Within hours the rating agency, Standard & Poor's

:38:43.:38:48.

told the eurozone countries that they could lose their blue chip

:38:48.:38:51.

credit rating as early as Friday night, if their plan doesn't work.

:38:51.:38:56.

First, they failed in Brussels, then they failed in Cannes. For

:38:56.:39:00.

months the EU has been like an endless advent calendar, where it

:39:00.:39:04.

is always winter but never Christmas. Summit after summit as

:39:04.:39:09.

failed. Today, in Paris, Europe's leaders may just have opened a

:39:09.:39:13.

window on the future. The German Chancellor arrived in Paris, with a

:39:13.:39:18.

plan, and once she got President Sarkozy behind closed doors, and

:39:18.:39:22.

after some give and take, the French backed the plan.

:39:22.:39:26.

TRANSLATION: France and Germany are the two big economies of Europe. To

:39:26.:39:30.

take the risk of us spliting, is to take the risk of exploding Europe

:39:30.:39:34.

and the euro. The deal they are working on shapes

:39:34.:39:38.

up like this, there will be legally-binding commitments to

:39:38.:39:42.

balance the books enshrined in national institutions. With --

:39:43.:39:46.

constitutions. With automatic sanctions for those with deficits

:39:46.:39:50.

above 3%. The long-term bailout fund for Europe, the ESM, will be

:39:51.:39:54.

brought forward, launching in 2012, but it will no longer try to impose

:39:54.:39:59.

losses on the banks. It will all be done through a new treaty, with or

:39:59.:40:02.

without Britain. There is the clear beginnings of a long-term deal here.

:40:02.:40:07.

But it is being done for a short- term reason, the leaders need to

:40:07.:40:09.

convince the European Central Bank they are prepared to impose

:40:09.:40:14.

discipline on southern Europe, not just once, but forever. If they can

:40:14.:40:19.

do that, the Central Bank itself may do what it has never done, act

:40:19.:40:24.

as the lender of last resort, and begin buying up the debts of those

:40:24.:40:27.

sthriken countries. What the an -- striken countries. What the

:40:27.:40:31.

analysts are looking for now is action in the short-term, and some

:40:31.:40:34.

big money. I don't think it will succeed in being a circuit breaker,

:40:34.:40:38.

on its own. You will have to see a number of other measures announced

:40:38.:40:42.

on Friday, for this solution to really be found. I think you will

:40:42.:40:46.

have to see another bailout groing programme announced for Spain and

:40:46.:40:51.

Italy, include -- bailout programme announced for Spain and Italy. You

:40:51.:40:57.

will have to see the ECB stepping in some way. I don't think any are

:40:57.:41:01.

actual solutions but they will buy some time, if EU leaders can agree

:41:01.:41:04.

on them. On the markets the impact was

:41:04.:41:08.

immediate, the Italian Government's effective cost of borrowing slumped,

:41:08.:41:14.

it had been well above 7% after Cannes. But it fell below 6% today.

:41:14.:41:17.

Now comes the tiny problem of selling the whole deal, first to

:41:17.:41:20.

the French. I don't think the French are in very much in favour

:41:21.:41:24.

of handing over more sovereignty to the commission in Brussels. However,

:41:24.:41:31.

a solution must be found. The crisis to be resolved very, very

:41:31.:41:36.

quickly. It depends, again, how it is done. The French are very much

:41:36.:41:41.

in favour, traditionally, to regulation, and if they see that

:41:41.:41:43.

the markets can be tamed by political leadership, I think they

:41:43.:41:47.

will be in favour of it. Once the French are squared, there is the

:41:47.:41:51.

Brits, we know David Cameron's position. On the referendum, our

:41:51.:41:55.

approach is very simple, we have legislated now, so it is impossible

:41:56.:41:59.

for a British Government to pass power, from Britain to Brussels,

:41:59.:42:03.

without asking the British people in a referendum first. That is the

:42:03.:42:06.

legal position. We have made that vitally important change. As Prime

:42:06.:42:10.

Minister, I'm not intending to pass any powers from Britain to Brussels,

:42:10.:42:14.

I don't think the issue will arise, but the British people should know,

:42:14.:42:17.

there is an absolute safeguard if power goes from Britain to Brussels,

:42:17.:42:22.

they have to say so first, and quite right too. What if a 17-

:42:22.:42:27.

nation treaty changes the balance of power, Merkel and Sarkozy made

:42:27.:42:31.

it clear today they would not be asking for Mr Cameron's rubber

:42:31.:42:38.

stamp. For the past six months the eurocrisis has been essentially a

:42:38.:42:41.

political sis, solvable by a decision making, even if people

:42:41.:42:45.

don't want to make decisions, now six months of indecision have

:42:45.:42:49.

created a world economic downturn, and Britain is being dragged into

:42:49.:42:53.

that. This is how one Italian minister felt as she voted through

:42:53.:42:58.

a new round of austerity last night. And well she might, the ratings

:42:59.:43:03.

agency S & P threatened to downgrade the whole eurozone,

:43:03.:43:08.

reminding them that while they have been dithering, growth has been

:43:08.:43:11.

disappearing. We will probably see debt restructuring in Italy and

:43:11.:43:15.

Spain. The influences of that on confidence, the financial services

:43:15.:43:19.

industries and lending is huge, and will cause growth to contract.

:43:20.:43:24.

there nothing they can do to stop that? No, I don't think there is,

:43:24.:43:29.

unless they draw a line under the crisis. Unless they can cut rates,

:43:29.:43:32.

talk down the euro, provide stimulus in the eurozone, I don't

:43:33.:43:37.

think they could find growth. they don't do a deal on Friday, the

:43:37.:43:41.

European calendar becomes a bit fraught, Italy needs to sell two

:43:41.:43:44.

big piles of bonds before the new year and up to now, nobody is

:43:44.:43:49.

buying. One slip there, and the whole mood of confidence goes out

:43:49.:43:54.

the window. Paul is here now with more on the

:43:55.:43:59.

warning tonight from the credit creating agency, Standard & Poor's.

:43:59.:44:03.

-- credit rating agency, Standard & Poor's. Germany and France agree to

:44:03.:44:09.

save the euro and risk getting their credit rating downgraded.

:44:09.:44:14.

Within hours, S & P have said that the there is a 50% of chance that

:44:14.:44:18.

the whole of the eurozone gets downtkwraided, the six triple A

:44:18.:44:22.

ratings would be lost. That would make the bailout fund, based on

:44:22.:44:25.

that money, impossible to do. They are saying you have a mixture of

:44:25.:44:28.

political indecision, there is a credit crunch in your banking

:44:28.:44:32.

system, and in the case in France you have your sums wrong on the

:44:32.:44:40.

buing budget deficit. Who are these people? All they exist to do is to

:44:40.:44:46.

say if the bonds are tripping A or not, are they risk-free or not. It

:44:46.:44:51.

brings the medicine methed out to Greece and Italy -- meted out to

:44:51.:44:55.

Greece and Italy potentially to France, maybe someone wants to get

:44:55.:44:58.

rid of the French Government. likely is today's deal to stick,

:44:58.:45:05.

and where does it leave Britain and other non-euro mebts, the former

:45:05.:45:12.

banker Joe Johnson, and the -- my other guest are here. Why is this

:45:12.:45:15.

deal going to work better than the other deal, all the arrangements

:45:15.:45:21.

exist? Yes they do, the only reason I can think that this should be

:45:21.:45:26.

make a difference is Angela Merkel is -- should make a difference, is

:45:26.:45:28.

Angela Merkel is talking about institutions and looking more in

:45:28.:45:32.

charge, and might be able to get more out of her own parliament at

:45:32.:45:35.

home. She always looked like she was running after the last

:45:35.:45:39.

financial market panic. People in Germany got very upset with her.

:45:39.:45:45.

When she started talking about grand bargains and treaty change

:45:45.:45:53.

and fiscal and stability change, the way she is handling the crisis

:45:53.:46:01.

has shot up. That might help in having to get the bailout funds

:46:01.:46:06.

going, getting more money from the IMF. Of course, it is broader than

:46:06.:46:11.

just Germany, the proposal is there be a new treaty? Yes, but that is a

:46:11.:46:14.

very long-term thing. They are talking about having this treaty.

:46:15.:46:21.

It is March, not that long-term? treat change in Europe has ever

:46:21.:46:25.

gone that quickly. -- no treaty change in Europe has ever gone that

:46:25.:46:29.

quickly. There is no reason to take it seriously then? The treaty

:46:29.:46:33.

change is long-term any way, it will not change the eurozone. This

:46:33.:46:37.

is part of a package that is politically necessary to convince

:46:37.:46:41.

the ECB that it is safe to intervene in the markets. They

:46:41.:46:47.

don't want to do the dirty job of telling the Italians to cut their

:46:47.:46:52.

budget. They don't want to act as the lender of last resort but first

:46:52.:46:56.

resort. They have played it back to the politicians. You're nodding

:46:56.:47:01.

very loyally? I think she's right. The fiscal factor is one part of a

:47:01.:47:06.

multistep solution. The S & P reaction illustrates the fact that

:47:06.:47:08.

France and Germany don't have credibility when it comes to

:47:08.:47:13.

enforcing fiscal rules. I was a Paris correspondent in 2005 they

:47:13.:47:18.

were the original sinners, they broke the rules. So this fiscal

:47:18.:47:22.

pact needs to be reinforced and in a number of ways. We need to have

:47:22.:47:26.

collective borrowing mechanisms, we need to see the EFSF, financed by

:47:26.:47:32.

the ECB, or we need to see euro bonds tpwheerbgsd proper commitment.

:47:32.:47:37.

What about the question -- we need to see proper commitment. What

:47:37.:47:41.

about the treaty change, a lot of people in your party would see it

:47:41.:47:45.

as a great chance to repatriate powers to Britain from Brussels,

:47:45.:47:49.

would that help? There are commitments to repatriateing

:47:49.:47:52.

certain powers, the Working Time Directive, that is in the coalition

:47:52.:47:55.

programme for Government F that opportunity arises, David Cameron

:47:56.:48:00.

will pursue it. We already look completely marginal, don't we. For

:48:00.:48:07.

something that is so intergral to our economic well being, the

:48:07.:48:16.

British are more or less not using? That is not true, our voice is

:48:16.:48:21.

powerful and heard and appreciated there. It is not fair to say

:48:21.:48:25.

completely marginal. If a treatyo goes ahead, Angela Merkel says she

:48:25.:48:31.

-- treaty goes ahead, Angela Merkel says she's easy about all 27 or the

:48:31.:48:34.

17 and others who want to come in, and Britain is not part of it, they

:48:34.:48:38.

are able to stitch up all sorts of things not in Britain's interests?

:48:38.:48:42.

You are thinking of potential attacks on the City of London. I

:48:42.:48:45.

think Britain needs more self- confidence and say let's win each

:48:45.:48:49.

market on its merits. George Osborne did that to fan it is

:48:49.:48:52.

particular effect in Brussels last weekend with the financial taxes

:48:52.:48:56.

act, that was clearly against British interests and he

:48:56.:49:00.

successfully batted it off. Do you share the confidence? It is the

:49:00.:49:04.

right way to go. Britain should really spend its political fire

:49:04.:49:07.

power where its interests lies, that is keeping the single market

:49:07.:49:12.

whole and free. Making an intelligence argument on financial

:49:12.:49:14.

services and regulation of financial services in Europe. Not

:49:14.:49:20.

when, at a time when the Europeans are defending the euro, which is an

:49:20.:49:25.

extension interest of those countries that are in --

:49:25.:49:31.

existential interest of those that are in there. And not as the

:49:31.:49:35.

British Prime Minister and go I'm talking about the European Working

:49:35.:49:42.

Time Directive, that will not go well there. We can't get those

:49:42.:49:45.

powers back? Perhaps at this time I wouldn't use that vexing moment in

:49:45.:49:49.

Europe to talk about something that is narrowly in the interests of

:49:49.:49:52.

Britain in Europe. What do you regard as this vexing moment?

:49:53.:49:56.

Government has been supportive for further progress towards fiscal

:49:56.:49:59.

union, the fiscal pact is something that George Osborne and David

:49:59.:50:02.

Cameron have been pushing for solidly for the past three months.

:50:02.:50:05.

It will be very much welcomed. Thank you very much. Some of

:50:06.:50:15.
:50:16.:50:47.

We have learned more about how seriously or otherwise the

:50:47.:50:50.

Government takes austerity today. David Cameron is planning to double

:50:50.:50:54.

the amount of money spent on the ceremonies for the Olympics next

:50:54.:51:01.

year, total is now �81 million. The last time London hosted the

:51:01.:51:05.

Olympics, the whole games cost less than three quarters of a million.

:51:05.:51:09.

Competitors brought their own towels, and the highlight of the

:51:09.:51:12.

opening ceremony was the release of several thousand pigeons. That is

:51:13.:51:22.
:51:23.:51:39.

several thousand pigeons. That is austerity, good night.

:51:39.:51:44.

Winter has arrived, that's for sure. It is an icey night. Particularly

:51:44.:51:48.

across more northern parts of the country. The Met Office has issued

:51:48.:51:51.

a yellow warning to naebgt. Icey services around, with the showers

:51:51.:52:01.
:52:01.:52:04.

Some showers getting into parts of the Midlands, East Anglia and the

:52:04.:52:08.

south-east too. Rather more cloud around, with the greater chance of

:52:08.:52:13.

the odd shower. Plenty more dryer weather out there. Showers for

:52:13.:52:15.

South-West England, temperatures seven or eight. It will be tempered

:52:15.:52:19.

by the breeze. Not exactly warm out there. To the ee of the hills

:52:19.:52:24.

across Wales, probably a -- to the east of the hills across Wales,

:52:24.:52:31.

probably lengthier dryer spells. After an icey night a cold day.

:52:31.:52:36.

Showers turning widespread as we end the day. Snow across Scotland,

:52:36.:52:42.

fewer showers before tomorrow night, we will see snow spreading across

:52:42.:52:45.

Scotland. Across northern areas sunshine as well. A big change in

:52:45.:52:48.

the weather on Thursday, wet weather also spreading across

:52:48.:52:52.

southern areas on Thursday, temperatures temporarily bouncing

:52:52.:52:57.

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