03/01/2012 Newsnight

Tonight, nearly two decades after the event, at last two men face

jail for one of the most notorious murders in recent history.

Stephen Lawrence was 18 when he was killed. It has taken the equivalent

of his entire lifetime to get a conviction. Why? Have the police

done -- had the police done their job properly, I would have spent

the last 18 years grieving for my son, rather than fighting to get

his killers to court. We will assess the legacy of this

extraordinary case, and what difference today's verdict will

make. The race for the White House

officially opens, with the Iowa caucuses. What pointers for the

election? Would you let any Tom dick or Harry stick one of these in

your chest. Why is Britain's cosmetic surgery so unregulate. We

talk to the Libyan novelist, Hisham Matar, about how his country is

crawling out of the shadow of Gaddafi.

The attack which killed Stephen Lawrence was carried out in seconds.

It has taken 18 years for anyone to be convicted of the murder. In the

end, justice has been done, or partially done, with the conviction

of two men out of a much bigger gang of racists responsible for a

crime which exposeded the incompetence and prejudice of

Britain's biggest police force. The anger and disappointment of Stephen

Lawrence's parents of the failure of the police, was only partially

tempered by today's convictions. Anna Adams has more the

A teenager immortalised for all the wrong reasons. Stephen Lawrence was

more than a murder victim, he became a symbol for Britain at its

most racist. Images from the case became etched on the public

consciousness, from the brawling scenes and the murder itself. At

the heart of it, Stephen's parents, and their 18 years of campaigning,

which kept this case open. Doreen and Neville Lawrence had powerful

advocates to their cause, and launched a powerful prosecution in

1994. That was unsuccessful, but today, two of the five original

suspect, Gary Dobson and David Norris, were finally found guilty

of his murder. But reactions were mixed outside the court. How can I

celebrate when I know that this day could have come 18 years ago, if

the police, who were meant to find my son's killers, failed so

miserably to do so. These are not a reason to celebrate. There have

been several investigations over the last 18 years, during which the

Lawrence family have campaigned tirelessly for justice. This

prosecution has depended upon previously unavailable scientific

technology and techniques, which led to the discovery of the new

evidence. Nothing can undo the fact that back in 1993, the police lost

their way with this case, very badly. The opportunity for example,

to gather a really rich hoard of forensic evidence was lost. They

just screwed up. And so, no arrests for two weeks, the defendants had a

time to wash, launder their clothe, clone their bathrooms, remove

pretty well every trace, as we see, we are down to microscopic traces,

before any clothes were seized. The case exposed the deep-rooted

problems between police and the black community, as Newsnight found

out two weeks after the murder. can't trust them. They pick you up

for nothing. Jacking you up because your black. The senior policeman

who run this is area was telling me the advice he would give you lot

was think seriously about joining the police force. (laughter) Edward

Jarman was with the Metaphor 32 years, he took the lead on race and

diversity issues. I don't think we are there with the whole issue of

race and an understanding. Part of that is we never will be because

the dynamics of diversity are constantly changing. The ethnic

make-up of London is changing as we peek. The issues are constantly --

speak, and the issues are constantly evolving into new

thingsment we are in a different place, we have a long way to go.

When you start talking about the use of a police power and the

feeling of it being disproportionate, as long as a

particular part of the community feel they are being policed

unfairly, we won't gain all the confidence and the police service

won't get all the information and support it needs. But the

Macpherson Inquiry into the case prompted some incredible changes.

The law of double jeopardy, which prevented suspects from being tried

twice was scrapped. Without that Gary Dobson would not have been

found guilty today. But there were also much deeper changes to race

relations. This was the first case in which the public had got behind

the family of a black victim of murder. That was historic. But I

think the implications of the case go wider. I think that people

understood that racism was something different and something

more complicateded than it had been before. -- complicated than it had

been before. White people understood this, particularly in

institutions and positions of authority. That the old idea that

there were occasional bad apples, malicious racists, shaven headed

and attached to extreme organisations, and that is where

racism resided, that idea, I think, for most of us has gone. Sentencing

is taking place tomorrow, but the Metropolitan Police say the case is

far from closed. They are still looking at nine other suspects and

they hope the passage of time will give new witnesses the courage to

finally come forward. In a moment we will discuss the legacy of this

case and what effect, if if any, these verdicts will have. First

let's hear a reaction from those who knew Stephen Lawrence. Steve

Smith spent some time in the London district of Eltham where Stephen

Lawrence was murdered. Stephen Lawrence has been dead now

for as many years as he lived. So there are young adults in Eltham

who have grown up with the knowledge of his murder always in

front of them. I will be celebrating my 18th birthday next

month, it is a case that has been going on for nearly 18 years.

your life. Before I was born. I have always known about Stephen

Lawrence. I think it is a really significant time in history,

justice has been done, but it is very important. I grew up with the

whole stigma of it. I was about 11 at the time, but you still remember

it. I still remember the day, I still remember it being on the news.

How was it a stigma, exactly? the things that are unsaid, the

whole racism thing, there was always things said to me from the

outside from different places. of you live in Eltham that is where

a lot of racists live? Definitely, that was kind of said. Is that true,

do you think, or not? Yeah, when I was growing up, absolutely it was

true, yeah. While some were paying their

respects, others, a few, took the opportunity to make comments from

passing vehicles. I think it is absolutely disgusting. Whilst we

have been standing here there have been people calling out things.

What have you heard? You know "he deserved it" I heard, someone

shouted that, as you turned around, I don't think you caught what they

said, as they drove down. I'm absolutely disgusted. I met him

when I was seven in Sunday school, went to Butt tins Blue Coats

together, went to college together. Honestly he was a good guy, you

know. I know there is a lot of people hear it on the news, some

people might get sick of it, but the truth is the truth. He was ale

really cool guy. With -- He was a really cool guy.

With us are Lord Falconer, Brian Paddick, the London MP, Diane

Abbott, and we are joined from New York by the journalist Martin

Bashir, who interviewed the Lawrence suspects in 1999. Why were

the Metropolitan Police so incompetent and so bigotted in

those days? It was a cultural thing. When I joined the police in 1976

racism was overt in the police service. People didn't think there

was anything wrong in being racist. What happened with the Stephen

Lawrence murder investigation, it was not taken seriously enough. It

was only the death of a young black man, therefore, the detectives did

not treat the case seriously enough, they didn't devote the resources

that should have been devote to it. As we have just heard from Brian

Cathcart, they did not use that opportunity to sees clothing, which

could have -- seize clothing that could have led to the conviction.

It was it the bigotry that underpinned or explained the

incompetence? I think what it was was not valuing young black men's

lives. The complaint from the Metropolitan Police authority is

now all that has gone, it it is a huge change, and however some

people may dissent from that, the fact is there are two guys who have

been convict for this crime now? First of all, let's not forget

there are a lot of other murders walking free, it wasn't just two

people who skilled Stephen Lawrence. I would say at the top of the

Metropolitan Police, the senior policemen and women who deal with

it are much more sophisticated and clever than the ones you dealt with

20 years ago. I'm sorry to say when you get further down the ranks, the

old canteen culture has got gone away. Sadly, the experience of

young black men on the streets of South-East London, North London,

Hackney, is, unfortunately, all too similar to the experiences that

Stephen Lawrence had. Today isn't a warter shed? Do you know, I know

Doreen Lawrence quite well, I had had close friends who supported her

from the beginning when it wasn't a fashionable cause. I always

remember her saying to me, you never expect to bury your child, it

is a watershed for her and Neville. You feel vindicateded in changing

the law at least? Without the law being changed, one of the people

convicted today wouldn't have been convict, but it is a pretty minor

aspect of the story. I think what happened to Stephen Lawrence

indicated how racist we were as a society. For reasons that Diane and

Brian are saying, we still are, in some respects. If there hadn't been

the campaigning of Mr and Mrs Lawrence, and the people who then

support them subsequently. They were alone for a pretty long time.

We would never have asked ourselves the questions as a society which

led to the Lawrence Report, and the Macpherson Report, and threw a

light on what Brian has described. I think we might have thought in

the mid-1990s that we weren't racist, and my goodness what

happened in the Lawrence investigations of what the police

didn't do. The period of time it took for us to realise what was

happening was very striking. That is why I don't think necessarily

today is the watershed, it is what that light that Mr and Mrs Lawrence

started shining on our society, and on the police who represent our

society, that is what the real watershed would be. I thought Mrs

Lawrence in saying today that nothing can bring back for her

either her son or those 18 years, and as Diane says, that five or six

is the number of people who are thought to have commit the murder.

Cressida Dick said there are nine people still being looked at. This

is 18 or 19 years later. Martin Bashir, do you think justice

has been done? I do. The Prime Minister talk about wanting a Big

Society, but essentially we need a just society. A society where,

regardless of your background, your waelgt, your colour, your origin,

justice functions. I think today that has happened. That is a great

thing for Britain. I think also, not with standing all the

criticisms of the police service, I think they do deserve credit,

following Macpherson. Just one point on that, Detective Chief

Superintendent Clive Driscoll who put the investigation together. It

was such a formidable investigation that the defence didn't produce a

single witness tole challenge a single aspect of the key -- to

challenge a single aspect of the key forensic evidence. That is a

remarkable achievement, not just because the time has passed, but it

shows the police service has learned something significant from

what happened, and the subsequent Macpherson Report. To answer your

question directly, I do think that justice has been done. You know

that I met all five of the called suspects over a prolonged period of

time, and met their parents. It didn't take very long for me to

realise why 26 separate sources within 24 hours of the tragic

murder of this young man, went to the police and named at least one

of those five suspects as being responsible for that death. It is

staggering when you hear that, and you just go back to what happened

at the time. The evidence the police were given, it is

astonishing that it has taken 18 years, isn't it? There is a story

of two halves here. As far as murder investigation is concerned,

in terms of the way the police treat hate crime, where people are

targeted because they are from a minority background. The fact that

we now have family liaison officers, that murders are reviewed

independently to make sure the senior investigating officer isn't

going down the wrong track. All of those changes have been fundamental,

a direct result of the Lawrence murder. All of those changes

implement even before Macpherson reported. But I agree with you,

Diane, that where the police have failed to transform the way they

operate, is in terms of the encourters they have on the treat,

with young -- encounters they have on the street with young black men.

You are five times more likely to be stopped and searched on the

streets in London if you are black. That cannot be right. Just to say

one of the allegations always swirling around this case, the

father of one of the defendant was a big gangland figure, one of the

allegations always swirling around the case is corruption of the

police by the father of one of the defendants.S just an allegation.

Let me say one thing. There is a very tragic murder in the last few

weeks of a young Indian student in Salford, who was killed in cold

blood, it is allegedly a hate crime, all I can say is I hope it doesn't

take 18 years to find his killer. Can I mention one thing. Diane

Abbott has just made the point about the police response, I think

that it is very, very busy to draw criticism and to attack the police

for what has happened in relation to this case. I think, though, you

have to come back to the facts that the police subsequent to Macpherson

did not walk away interest this case. They actually embraced the

criticism of them, and they have delivered a verdict today. That is

never going to bring back the loss of Stephen Lawrence. Of course all

of us feel heartbroken for his family and convey our condolences

to them. Let's not fail to give some credit where it is due here.

What happened is they started a cold case review in 2007. A man

called Mr Jarman, a private contractor spotted the force epbsic

stuff. All credit to the police for -- forensic stuff, all credit to

the police, but it took eight years after Macpherson Report. I don't

blame the police for that. After all the forensic, Macpherson has a

list of criticisms, including watching black binliners leaving

one of the suspect's house leaving the building. What convicted these

two people was a tiny speck of forensic evidence, if they had gone

into the house within 24 hours, they knew these people's names,

they of could have got search warrants and got gallons of

evidence. Does it strike you as change, you were part of the whole

change in the law, the abolition of the double jeopardy thing. Does it

strike you as odd that the only sentence these men can face is one

that of would have been applicable at the time the crime was committed,

given how much more we now understand about racism? The crime

that, the sentence they will get will be based upon the fact in part

that they were juveniles at the time they did this. The principle

there is if you are a juvenile when you commit the crime you will be

sentenced on that. Racial agravation is part of the case?

is up to the judge to take into account how much the racial factor

will aggravate the sentence, that is for him to decide tomorrow.

to say this, all credit to the police as Martin has been at pains

to say. As a parent myself, all credit to the Lawrences, who, if

they hadn't been, there were years where nobody was interested in the

case. If they hadn't been so persistent, they wouldn't even have

got the partial justice they have got today. And the price they have

paid for this. And the way they were treated, the way they were

treat. That is why although I don't in had any way criticise the police

for their 2007 review and what happened and the conviction that

has now been obtained b about you they felt completely isolated, and

they felt as victims they were treated appallingly by the police.

The point that Diane Abbott make about David Norris is well made.

Clifford Norris, his father, is a career criminal, who has spent time

in jail. This man grew up amongst endemic criminality. It was

remarkable, two weeks ago, when he got into the witness box, he was so

confident in his relationship with his father, that spread into

various police officers in the past, that he was able to say that he had

an alibi in his mother on the night the murder took place. When I

interviewed him, he told me he was with his girlfriend Sheryl in her

house. I think Diane make as point that many of us have felt, that in

the case of Norris specifically, there was some kind of discreet

relationship between him, his father and the Metropolitan Police.

Nobody has disputeded the existence of that, and its effect on the

inquiry. This question of a changeded relationship, didn't what

we saw in the riots last summer show there is a long way to go in

repairing this relationship? think there is, Diane will know

better than anybody as a local MP, that tension between the police and

the black community is still strained. In fact, my party leader,

Nick Clegg, was delivering the Macpherson, the Scarman lecture in

Brixton a few weeks ago, I advised had him to say relations between

the police and the black community were better than they were in 1981,

he was advised by the organisers not to say that, otherwise he would

be seen to be out-of-touch with the local community. That is a very

serious indictment in where we are with police and community relations

today. The business of choosing the most

powerful person on earth gets under way in a couple of hours among the

three million or so overwhelmingly white inhabitants of the state of

Iowa. A very small proportion of them will gather in libraries and

school rooms tonight to decide who should be the Republican candidate

to challenge Barack Obama later this year. They won't have anything

like the final word. Their claim to fame is to have the first word.

That is why the Iowa caucus is interesting. Peter Marshall is in

Iowa. Here we are in what is part of the

democratic process s the Iowa caucuses is always a strange affair,

not surprisingly in the last few weeks with the world going to hell

in a hand cart. The presidential nominees have been lining up in a

game akin to speed dating, like suitors stating their case before

eventually collapsing in various shades of embarrassment. It is not

as though Iowa is representative of America, it is an atypical state,

it is a farming state and farming is doing very well. The rule is if

you win Iowa and winning New Hampshire as well, they are half

way anointed to being the person chosen to represent the Republicans

to face Barack Obama for the White House.

They know all about cattle markets in Iowa, the livestock is paradeded

about and the calves, who promise the best beef, get picked out. You

know where this is going, it happens every four years. Those

crazed with sufficient ambition to be their party's candidate for

President, roll around this tiny state, for months on end, trying to

coax the locals. But they alone can save the nation. Iowa's farmers

have seen it all, look on Reily. is a very challenging situation

ined today's political arena. like normal elections, everyone is

prom mitsing everything and delivering nothing. -- prom mitsing

everything and delivering nothing. You -- promising everything and

delivering nothing. You don't believe them? No. The country is

broken. Meet Mitt Romney, the man long expect to come out on top of

the Republican pile. What hard work it is proving to be. Romney is

backed by the party's bosses. He's funded to a far higher level than

his opponents, and he has never stopped running since losing to

John McCain last time around. will clamp down on China that has

been cheating, they have been stealing our property, our designs,

our patents, our brand, hacking into our computers. That has to

stop, you will stop it if I'm President of the United States.

Romney used to be Governor of Massachusetts, a state Republicans

decry as liberal. He has a track record. To many party activists, on

matters like taxation, he has been a bit of a wet. If Mitt Romney were

to get the nomination it would be the victory over Everything but

Romney mood which has seized the party over recent month. A

startling array of challengers have shone briefly and brightly before

disappearing, and self-combusting. Commerce, education and what's the

third one there. Department of Energy, you know we have all lost

our train of thought before, but not many have done it on national

TV. Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, couldn't remember his own policies.

He's now having to use his campaign ads, attempting to turn his amnesia

into a joke. I'm your man, I'm Rick Perry, what's that line again? I'm

Rick Perry, and I approve of this message.

What's up with these sorry politicians. Lots of bark, but when

it is show time, wimpering like little shih tzus, you want big cuts.

Perry has been eclipsed by Ron Paul, a 76-year-old libertarian, who

wants to slash military spending and terminate much of Government.

Swathes love his radicalism, he's riding high in Iowa, but he will

never be President. The question beings why more of the party's

bigger guns with wider appeal haven't run. Like Chris Christie,

and others. As weak as President Obertan looks now, running against

an incumbent is never a kickback. Looking at Iowa, a battleground

state in the election, Barack Obama has eight campaign offices open in

Iowa right now. That is more than any of the Republicans running in

the kaukkass have. He's organised - caucuses? He's organised, very

organised. He will have far more money. Mitt Romney can be

competitive, even Mitt Romney says he won't have as much money as

Barack Obama. With fresh unemployment figures out on Friday,

Obertan's re-election prospects hinge -- Obama's re-election

prospects ride on the economy. Times are tough, and Obama's fan

base is shaken, says one Democratic leader, but says in the end they

will back him again. The one thing to compare Obama to what you

thought he could be, and then compare him against those he's

running against, once you see those contrasts among Obama or any of the

Republicans, you almost have to come home to Obama if you were a

supporter before. There are indications the US economy could be

picking up, that doesn't put Barack Obama in the clear, an incumbent

has to cope with events. There is no sign that the focus will be on

anything really except the economy and foreign policy. There has been

a lot of talk recently on the campaign trail about especially

Iran, concern about what sort of policy the United States will have

towards Iran, and the fact that it is working towards getting nuclear

weapons. It is not just Iran, if Obama is to hold on to the

presidency, he has to tread carefully through a difficult world

over the next 11 months. There is North Korea, Pakistan, Syria and

the whole of the Middle East. And there's Vladimir Putin and his

handling of Russia's democracy. All that is without mentioning the

eurozone, which leads back to America's own, problem number one,

the economy. And finally to the latest challenger for the

Republican nomination. Attacking the front runner Romney as a fan of

Obama-style health care, Rick Santorum suggests the British

Empire collapsed because of similar social programmes. REPORTER: Can

you tell us which social programmes caused the collapse of the British

Empire, give us one answer? I think the British national health care

system is a devastating programme to a country, it makes it dependant

and that is a devastating thing for society. The height care programme,

the National Health Service, it is popular -- the health care

programme, the National Health Service, it is popular though?

Margaret Thatcher wasn't able to do what Reagan was able to do to this

country. On that bombshell, the wannabe President was on his way.

His chances of leading the American empire remain remote, but you never

know. With us now from New Hampshire is

the Republican presidential candidate and our guests,

strategists for the Democrats is with us too.

What do you think we have learned about Republicanism about how the

candidates are standing tonight? Well, you know, it is a very fluid

situation. In Iowa and all over the country. Mitt Romney is the front

runner, he has been at this for about six years, everyone is

looking for an alternative. One of the reasons I stepped into this

race. How does it look to you from the opposite side of the fence,

given particularly the number of people who have chosen not to throw

their hats into the ring? Well, I think it is a really important

night for Romney. He spent �4.5 million worth of ads with himself

and his affiliated communities here. This is really make-or-break it for

him, he has to come in one or two, the Republicans are having a lot of

reservation about their front runner. He's pulling out all the

stops to have a good turn out tonight and get his percentage and

number of votes up from when he ran before. Your candidates seem to

have to make all sort of commitments on social affairs that

unrecoginsable to Middle America? The Republican party of 2012 is a

different party than I grew up with. It was a caring party, not hung up

on all the social issues, a very devisive party. I think Iowa

Republican also send one message, I think the rest of the country will

see, starting next week, in New Hampshire, will send a very

different message. That moderation and reasonableness is very welcome,

because that's where the United States is right now. Most of the

voters here are independent, most of the voters are looking for

solutions to get Government working, and the two sides to get along.

Like Reagan did, my old boss. How does it look to you in

comparison with the race for the White House itself? I think Fred

has made a very good point. The Republican primary is pulling these

candidates very right-wing, and all these Iowa candidates, who have

spent millions of dollars in ads, still haven't established an

economic plan. It it is "economy stupid" that is the issue out there.

Every single one of them is talking about God and their faith and their

position on the unborn child, but nothing to make sure that child

ever has a job. So I think you will see these candidates move too far

right to really come back and win a general election. They are not

establishing an economic plan, they are not establishing a viable

contrast with Barack Obama. But if it is the "economy stupid"

then Obama is in trouble, isn't he? I think it is a choice. It is also

a question about where we are headeded. Americans are a lot more

savvy than people give them credit for, they know it is a global

recession, and a recession, and they know it was primarily caused

by Bush and Wall Street, and they want progress for sure. They are

not at all-clear that the Republicans are offering a real

alternative. If if you look at the specifics their plan, do away with

regulation, and don't continue the tax cutser for the middle-class.

Don't increase tax increases on the wealthiest 1%. Don't increase jobs

in the United States, cut social security. These are not popular

policies. These are policies two- thirds to three quarters of

Americans reject, including a substantial proportion of

Republican women. The Republicans aren't offering an alternative

right now. You were shaking your head throughout much of that, why?

Nice try, we are in agreement on the rightward shift of the

Republicans running. President Obama when he's under the

microscope, he promisededed in his campaign to spend the first two

years of his presidency on fixing our economy. He spent the first two

weeks, he passed our stimulus trillion dollar bill, and then went

off to health care and a whole array of other subjects. He hasn't

kept his eye on the ball and is in serious trouble. What the

Republican party is looking for is a new face. We have gone through

many. I'm here in New Hampshire, I'm aed moderate Republican, we

started running our commercialsed today, I'm a moderate Republican,

we started running our commercials today, I I'm pro-choice, I would

love to run against Barack Obama and talk about putting America back

to work like Ronald Reagan did in 1981. You have no chance of doing

so, have you? You know I'm one debate away. I have been kept out

of the debates, Fox Network here, eventhough I qualified for the

second debate in Iowa, I qualified, I met their criteria, would not

allow me in the debate the. They changed the rules. I filed a

complaint against Rupert Murdoch, with alls they -- all the other

problems. I'm in the Michigan debate and on the ballot this, I

could be the flavour of the week and once America gets a lock at me

I'm hopeful I can be the nominee. These are worrying times if you are

one of the estimated 42,000 women in Britain of who have had breast

implants manufactured by a French company called PIP. The Government

saided today here, the Government here, that it doesn't believe it is

necessary for all women who have had implants to have them removed.

It can't get all the information it needs to make a judgment, because

private companies who have carried out the procedure won't tell them.

Whatever the risks of implants are, the affair has laid bare how

unregulated British cosmetic surgery is.

In our contemporary culture it is everywhere, the desire to look

better, more beautiful, whatever the cost. But what about when it

goes wrong, when the costs are more than just financial. Tonight, tens

of thousands of women in Britain still don't know if the breast

implants they had are safe. The Government says it doesn't have all

the data it wants, and is ordering some private clinics to hand over

figures on failure rates by the end of the week. This is aed good-

quality breast implant, even if it were to rupture, it shouldn't cause

any problems. But those at the centre of the French scandal were

made using industrial-grade silicone. And last week the French

Government said all the women affected should have them removed

and it would cover the costs. So what should happen for the 50,000

or so women here who also had those implants? Modern implants are so

well manufactured that you could do this with them and they don't

rupture. They are very robust. Jacqueline Lewis carries out

implant operations for NHS and private patients. If I were to

stick a knife into this implant, I'm squeezing on it here, and it is

bulging out a bit, then if I cut into it and squeeze it. Nothing

really happens. It just goes back in. It is form stable. She says

she's confident that women with good-quality implants have nothing

to fear. But she is concerned about the PIP implant. If this had

happened to my sister, I would want her to have the implants refd moved,

because we now know that -- removed, because we now know that the filler

of these PIP implants were filled with silicone not of meddle kal

grade, not for human use -- medical grade, not for human use. Mark

Harvey is representing 250 people PIP implants, in a class action

against clinics that fitted them. He's critical of the regulator in

this field. The medicines and health care products regulatory

agency, the MHRA. I went to the MHRA in February 2009 and said

there was problems and was rebuffed by the MHRA, we know there was very

little post marketing surveillance that would have detected a problem,

much earlier than the recall that took place in 2010. But this isn't

the first time there has been a national furore over the safety of

breast implants. In 1997, the BBC's Healthcheck programme, produced

evidence from women that they felt inadequately informed about

possible risks of surgery. The Labour Government ordered a safety

review. A year later that independent review group found no

conclusive evidence of a link between silicone implants and

connective tissue disease, nor a link with an abnormal immune

response. But they said women needed more information about risks

and there should be compulsory recording on the National Breast

Implant Registry about all breast implant operations and any adverse

incidents. Labour MP, Ann Clwyd, first raised the issue in

parliament in 1994, calling for action on cosmetic surgery. A

registry was set up, but discontinued a few years later.

the implants register, I think it should be reinstated, there should

be a wide inquiry into why it was discontinued. And also, into the

continuing practice, particularly if they are using silicone from

other countries, I think the women who have had the silicone implants

have the right to know, they need to know that their health is not in

danger. I think surgeries were sold a duff product and there was a

failure in the regulatory process, I would like to see the national

implant registry reinstated and funded. The NMRA told us attempts

to run the registry failed because patients were reluctant to get

involved. But said tonight, together with the Department of

Health, it will look at re- establishing the registry. They are

insisting their tests found no safety issues relating to the PIP

filler material. Today the Government stress that Britain and

France agree there is no link to cancer, as some have feared. For

the time being, at least, the Government says that on balance,

there is no need for women to have PIP implants reof moved. That may

not be -- plants removed, that may not be enough to women who have had

to cope with the hidden risks of cosmetic surgery. Three days into

2012 and the 2011 Arab Spring has yet to turn to summer in many

places. Syrian security forces are reckoned to have killed 100 people

even since Arab League monitors arrived in the country. In Egypt

Mubarak has been toppled, but the army has yet to hand over power,

and in Libya, there was more fighting in the centre of the

capital, Tripoli today, between factions once united in toppling

Colonel Gaddafi. 2011 wasn't a great year for

dictators, Colonel Gaddafi was merely the most infamous of the

club to find his life tenure of the Presidential Palace, rudely

interrupted by the Arab Spring. His squalid end was beamed around the

world, but strong men were also ousted from power in Egypt, Yemen

and Tunisia. It is now over a year since a young

Tunisian man, put all this in train by setting had himself on fire

after his vegtable cart was confiscateded by police. The

revolution he set off drew the west into a civil war in Libya and has

toppled, at the last count, four Governments. In Syria, protestors

are still dying in their efforts to get rid of Bashar al-Assad. But the

question of what replaces the Governments that have gone hasn't

yet been answered. In Egypt elections are on going, and it is

far from clear how they will turn out. The army still holds the reins.

In Libya, the National Transitional Council is hoping to see elections

by next summer, and a new constitution. But the final outcome

of all these changes and how they will shape their societies, remains

opaque. The Libyan novelist Hisham Matar is with me. You have written

we have defeated Gaddafi on the battlefield, now we must defeat him

in our imaginations, what did you mean by that? The narrative of

Gaddafi, this alien figure that descended on an otherwise very

organised society and turned it into this hell, and then now, by

removing him, we will just revert back to this utopian situation, is

not only inaccurate, but it is dangerous. Because it misses the

truth, which is that Gaddafi is a very complex phenomenon in Libyan

history, that has affected the psychology of our nation. It has

affect our imagination. You no just in a very practical sense, how

deeply corrupt a lot of Libyan institutions remain to be is a

legacy from that time. You returned recently, how has it changed?

haven't returned to Libya, I'm going soon. Sorry you are going

soon. You are in almost daily contact, how has it changeded?

has changeded phenomenally. It is very -- changed phenomenally, it it

is very difficult to articulate. I was thinking on the way how do

impart this, to your viewers and to you, we have lived for 40 years

under this state waiting, a very surreal time of just waiting. It

has made us very passive, it has made us very sinle kal about

ourselves. But also -- cynical about ourselves, but also about the

world. Suddenly now we speak about things in incredibly practical ways.

We are very engaged. We are anxious because of the mountain ahead of us,

but we are not afraid, we are not looking over our shoulders. We are

incredibly excite. If you were to look at particularly the cultural

life in Libya, see how many new newspapers and magazines have start,

just in this time, the various NGOs that have started. More than 500

NGOs in Libya, in a country where having an NGO was a political crime.

You know. When you are living in a police state, and everyone is

unsure about who is watching them, they behave kifrpbly to how they

behave if -- differently to how they behave if they live in a free

society? Yes, and a lot of commentators, early on, were saying,

and rightly so, one of the big challenges Libya has is exactly

this fact. Doesn't have an experience in democracy. But we

have forgotten that Libya doesn't have an expowerence of democracy,

but we have an incredible experience in the opposite. We know

what the opposite looks like. And you can see that. You can see how

vigilent people are being. Case in point when the current transitional

Government tried to set up a Government without consultation,

they have been terrible at being transparent, in fact, and have

elect officials without telling people how they have done that.

People have taken to the streets and haven't left until the

Government disclose that list. about the question of getting rid

of Gaddafi himself. The whole world saw pictures of him taken, walking

around, standing up, we then saw pictures of him dead, there appears

to have been some sort of extra judicial carried out there. What

did you feel when you saw all of that? Terrible. It was a moment of

national psychosis. Gaddafi has been responsible, in the past, for

several of those, and one is familiar with it. But also I think

to take it more deeply, one has to understand, or try to imagine what

those men have been going through, in the months before. A lot them

haven't slept, for example, very well. This is not to excuse it, but

to understand it a little bit better. Also I think what is really

interesting about that moment is that it says so much about the

relationship, the psychological relationship that Libyans have with,

or had with Gaddafi, I would claim still have on some level. In a

sense they couldn't quite believe that they have captured him. They

were testing, let's Troy to do one more thing before the -- let's try

to do one more thing before the sky collapses on it, because surely it

will. One of the things I thought of was this story that used to be

repeated in Libya before, where one of his guards wanted to kill him

and recruit another guard, and they were speaking about how they were

going to do this, and they went through the details. One of them

said, I'm going to shoot him at this moment and you cover my back.

The other person said, fine, how do you know once you shoot him that he

will actually die. You know. You can see that being played out there.

Something else you could see being played out that is very interesting.

Is how Gaddafi's dictatorship has succeeded in affect ing Libyan

masculinity. There was something in the Mc Car bre and -- macarbre and