04/01/2012 Newsnight


04/01/2012

How far have relations between police and the black community improved since Stephen Lawrence's murder?


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Blin's biggest police force has promised to atone for past sins and

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try to put more of the racists who killed Stephen Lawrence in jail.

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The police are, they say, a changed, improved service, there for the

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benefit of all. Just getting searched at the moment.

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This happens quite frequently. yet many young black men's

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experience of the police, seems significantly different to that of

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many young white men. We will discuss just how you create

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confidence when perceptions of peacekeeping and prejudice collide.

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How did a few prordors in a collection of tents shake --

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protesterors in a collection of tents shake some of the pillars of

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the Church of England. We will speak to the Canon Chancellor of St

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Paul's who quit his job because he was so bothered by the issue.

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And deforestation by force. We have just landed the helicopter, and the

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officers are going over to the truck, which has freshly cut logs

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:01:15.:01:23.

They were sentenced to 14 and 15 years in jail for what the judge

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called a terrible and evil crime. And yet there was an incompleteness

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about the conclusion of the trial of Stephen Lawrence's murderers. No

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finality because Nair co- conspirators remain free, -- their

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co-conspirators remain free. The police say they are massively

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changed since the time Stephen Lawrence's murder. But as we report,

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plenty of people think there is still a way to go.

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Stephen Lawrence's murder has altered the police landscape in

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Britain. Officers seemed to think he was a gang member, not innocent

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victim, as he lay bleeding to death. The bungled investigation prompted

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the Macpherson Inquiry, which branded the police, institutionally

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racist. But how much has really changed. What's up with your mates,

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why have they got the hump. I don't know mate. How are you doing. Now

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we are going to stop you. For black and ethnic communities this is the

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acid test, stop and search. We were given this video of a police search

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carried out last week in Brixton. Would the female like to search me?

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The police were suspicious because three of the group ran away, they

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were looking for knives. My name is PJ Taylor.

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Is that your full name? Yeah. Just getting searched at the moment.

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This happens quite frequently. When people have done nothing.

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We caught up with the man being searched, he runs his own start-up

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media company in Brixton. The only thing he was carrying was a camera.

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So PJ, what is going on here? I got stopped on Friday night, I

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was filming a music video for a couple of guys in Brixton. A bully

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van of officers, apparently from Bromley Station came and they just

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searched us for no reason. Why do you call it a bully van? I don't

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know, I'm being honest, I'm 22 years of age, I have grown up with

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the term bully van, the only thing I can break it down, bullies come

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out of the van. The officers or the police they are a gang. Because

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they are all together, and they go out doing what they are doing.

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Young black men are disproportionally stopped and

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searched. Back in 1994, when Stephen Lawrence was murdered, 11%

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of stops and searches under section 1 of the Police and Criminal

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Evidence Act were black people. These require reasonable suspicion.

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In 2010 the figure was 18%, in the same year in Britain the figure was

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33.5%. But PJ was stopped under a different law. Section 60, brought

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in to tackle football violence. These stops do not require

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reasonable grounds for suspicion. In London, 48% of section 60 stops

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in 20 09/10, were against black people. The police tend to trouble

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a lot of black youths. I don't want it to sound racist, I'm half white

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and black. They stereotype people because they see a black boy with

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aed hood up. They automatically go with the stereotype and stop and

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search them. These debates have a long history,

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it was ainger at police tactics which were blamed -- ainger at the

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police tactic that is were blamed for the Brixton riots. We caught up

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with a community leader who witnessed the civil unrest in the

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1980s and has a long view. When I was a young person involved in the

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social unrest in 1991 in Leeds, a lot of the issues we had against

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the police, the anger with the stop and search, and the general very

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negative aggressive approach by the police, I don't believe that has

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stopped. If anything it has got worse. You think it has got worse?

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I think it has got worse. Bringing race into it is irrelevant, what is

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important is you target the people committing the offences. If that

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means that some police officers start to use stop and search in an

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indiscriminate manner, they should be dealt with for doing that. At

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the same time you don't want to frighten police officers from doing

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their duty. Some blame ainger at the police for

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the most recent -- anger at the police for the most recent riots in

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the summer. Some say there are too few black police officers to

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But senior black police officers acting as role models are scarce.

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In its way, this youth engagment agency, called Liberty, is designed

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to help correct this problem. Here young people have opportunities to

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work on a commercial magazine called Live, helping to shape

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tomorrow's leaders, perhapsment you think there is an issue that

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there are very few senior black police officers in the Metropolitan

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Police? There just aren't that many very senior people? I think if the

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issue at the moment is that, but it won't stay an issue. People are for

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getting us being here at Live Magazine, what we're doing is

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building a future for ourselves, the same as any other young black

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person here. Not everyone is on the streets. That is the picture that

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everyone has painted of us. And actually, there is a more of of us

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changing that picture. There is a bit of racism, a lot of black

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people do get stopped and searched, also because you are young and

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depending on what you wear, you get stopped and searched.

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The police have made progress, but there is still a surprising lack of

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trust. Even from the man who helped shape the Met as drive to recruit

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more black officers. Roger Noel had high hopes when he

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modelled for this advert. I was very happy to do it. But I was in

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the East End of London, but this time it wasn't just the white cop,

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it was the black and white cop. So I was stopped, they slowed the car

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down and asked me questions in a derogatry man, I replied, I said to

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the black cop do you realise you got this job because of me, because

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of my advertisment, or me representing the police. He thought

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I wased mad. He didn't realise what I was talking about. The Lawrence

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case was a watershed moment, not just for police but society. The

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police have better policies now, implementing them systematically is

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the big problem. With us is Rod Jarman, Acting

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Deputy Commissioner with the Metropolitan Police until last year.

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Cindy Butts a member of the Metropolitan Police authority, and

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Madix, a former gang member, who has served time in prison and now

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works with young gang members. The police have changed to all

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intents and purposes, haven't they, since the days of Stephen Lawrence,

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why is there still such a significant problem with a

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significant section of the black community? I think for a range of

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different reasons, actually. I think that a lot of the black

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community actually do recognise the changes that have occurred. The

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fact that policing now is much more professionlal, the way in which the

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police investigate critical incidents and murders, the

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introduction of family liaison officers. All of these very

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positive things that have happened as a result, actually, of the

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tragic murder of Stephen Lawrence and the subsequent Stephen Lawrence

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inquiry. That said, I think there are still a number very key

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challenges that the organisation still needs to face, not least, as

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was said in the report, in terms of stop and search, and the

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disproportionate numbers of young black men who are still stopped and

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searched on the streets of London. That is a very corrosive issue,

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that actually affects the trust and confidence that people have in the

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police service. How corrosive is it, this question of stop and search?

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It depends. You have got someed bad officers that just do it the wrong

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way. They see it as a green light to have an opportunity to just

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victimise people, you know, like there is some bad officers out

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there. You might not believe it, but there is bad officers out there,

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:09:54.:09:54.

giving a bad namer for the rest. you think they are a minority, the

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bad officers? Nowadays they are a minority. These days they will get

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moved to somewhere elsewhere they are not a problem, you know. So the

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police have changed? The police have change. I'm 37, from a very

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young age I was getting arrested and police now, because they have

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gotten younger, they have got new recruits coming in, because they

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are younger they are more down to earth, more diverse, more

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acceptable to other people and other cultures. But they still have

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the hierarchy, which are the old set mind people, who basically

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control everything. Do you understand what I'm saying to you?

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If a good officers, good in his heart, wanting to do his job, he

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can't tell a bad officer that you can't behave like that towards the

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youth, he has to back up his colleague, everybody ends up

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looking bad, you lose trust in the police, everybody ends up doing

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their own thing. How does it look to you? All of the research over

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the past few years shows that feeling that you are treated fairly

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and properly is a major issue around confidence. If parts of the

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community don't feel they are treated fairly, that impacts on of

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confidence in policing and the ability of the police to deliver

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their job. I think Madix touch on something really important. There

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are a number of officers who use stop and search frequently, they do

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a lot of stop and search, but they do it in a way which is is seen as

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acceptable and proper, with the people they are working with. They

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do it in a way that is open, they understand the dynamic of what's

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happening, and they work with people to carry out their search.

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There are some others who aren't as God at it. It is a really difficult

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thing to do -- good at it, it is a really difficult thing to do. And

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there are some, as Madix describes, are those who shouldn't be on the

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streets doing these things. The mix of all that together, particularly

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with the way we police in London, means for some people, for some

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communities, there is a real feeling of unfairness. How big an

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issue is this question of the ethnic nature of the police?

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Clearly the proportion of ethnic minority police officers has gone

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up. Still at the very top of the police, there are 117 senior

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officers, three of mem belong to black and the nick comue -- them

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belong to black and ethnic communities? I don't think it

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matters if you are white, black or blue, to be a police officer you

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have to be a certain frame of mind and mentality, if you have that you

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will get into the police force. It is a mentality, I don't think

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putting 1,000 black officers in the police will change them. I disagree.

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I really think it is important that our public. It is good to see them

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there, but it doesn't change anything. It is crucial that they

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reflect the population they serve. The black police officers that are

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there do show they are able to change from the inside. If you look

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at the work, First Minister, of the Black Police Association, and other

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key individual -- for instance of the Black Police Association, and

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other key individual, not just trying to cajole their white

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officers to be better, but working as a key conduit between the black

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community. They play a dual role inside and outside the the figures

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that we see, the increase that we see in BME officers, is good, but

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it isn't nearly as good as what it ought to be. All too often the

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police's argument is it takes time to get there. That is partially

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true. But actually, given that we have taken, it has taken so long, I

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mean, I think that there needs to be a more radical solution to this.

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Positive discrimination? absolutely not. I chaired the race

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and faith inquiry, we delivered our report in 2010, one of our key

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recommendations that the Government introduce multipoint entry, so

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people can enter the service at different levels. I think that will

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be a key aspect in solving the representation issue. There is a

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thing which I think we mustn't miss, the police service over the past

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ten years has put an awful lot of for the into changing what it looks

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like.S focus on getting black and the nick minority people to join

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the force. -- ethnic minority people to join the force. People

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weren't joining ten years ago. We are now in a position where people

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are joining and coming through. I think Cindy is right, the race and

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faith inquiry and all the inquiries to date have really failed to

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galvanise the movement of black and ethnic minority officers through

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the ranks into the positions of senior leadership. Something

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different needs to be done. But what I have seen in the last few

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years something different, in the way that people are being held up

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and brought along, and in the way that Liberty group we are talking

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about, actually given the power to get through themselves, rather than

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to be forced or shoe horn into a new post. How much -- shoe horned

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into a new post. How much of the rioting we saw in the summer was

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about the chasam between some young people and the police?

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personally, firstly, about these black officers, sorry, I have to

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say this, these black officers that are in the police and in the

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communities, usually, yeah, nine times out of ten, they are the ones

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that step out of the van first, and be rude, because they are black, do

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you understand. They will force themselves. That is one heck of a

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generalisation? I have seen it, street level, I have seen it many

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times, do you understand, don't get me wrong, there is black officers

:15:32.:15:35.

that are good and doing what they are supposeded to be doing, a lot

:15:35.:15:40.

of the time, a lot of these ethnic minorities are coming out at these

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at black people, because they are black. Thinking they have got the

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right to be extra, because they are black. I'm not talking from figures,

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I haven't seen no figures or statistics, I'm talking about me

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being on the street and talking to the youth, I deal with them every

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day. How much do you think the riot that is we saw this summer were to

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do with the chasam between some young people and the police?

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think it was an aspect, but it wasn't, I think we need to be

:16:07.:16:14.

careful not to rayify what happened, the riots took on different forms

:16:14.:16:19.

in different places at different times. Some of it was opportuneism,

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some of it is relate to poverty and desperation. Some of it was mass

:16:25.:16:29.

hysteria, jumping on the bandwagon. Some people had the opportunity to

:16:29.:16:32.

have the most exciting experience of their life, and they have said

:16:32.:16:36.

so. It is important to keep it into perspective, and don't run away

:16:36.:16:39.

with the idea that the riots were as a result of police community

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relations. That may have been the case in 1981, it wasn't the case in

:16:44.:16:46.

2011. Thank you very much.

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The people camp outside St Paul's Cathedral have a minimum of seven

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days before they discover whether the courts are going to let them

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stay there. Their effect on global capitalism so far hasn't been

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noticable, their effect on the Church of England has been enormous.

:17:02.:17:06.

Two senior clerics have fallen on their swords or out of their pulpit,

:17:06.:17:13.

whatever the expression. The church as a whole seems highly

:17:13.:17:16.

discombobulated about the situation and what it has to say about

:17:16.:17:26.
:17:26.:17:28.

western capitalism. It was an unholy row.

:17:28.:17:34.

The combination of Wren's masterpiece, anti-capitalist

:17:34.:17:42.

demonstrators and church politics, proved to be a volatile mix. It led

:17:42.:17:50.

to the voluntary defenestration of Giles Fraser, he resigned as Canon

:17:50.:17:57.

Chancellor at St Paul's, this a pre-emptive measure against the

:17:57.:18:00.

forcible eviction of people in this camp, that hasn't happened, at

:18:00.:18:04.

least not yet. On the night the protestors arrived, last October,

:18:04.:18:07.

Mr Fraser had personally intervened with the police to prevent them

:18:07.:18:12.

being removed. We are very happy for people to exer size their right

:18:12.:18:15.

peacefully to protest. That is what they are doing. The Parson has come

:18:15.:18:19.

down from the Cathedral and the police, and they did, there was no

:18:19.:18:22.

damage. The authorities of the Channel Tunnel were clearly willing

:18:23.:18:27.

to agree to the -- of the church were clearly willing to agree to

:18:27.:18:31.

the forcible eviction of the protestors, it comes a point where

:18:31.:18:35.

every person, church leader or not has to decide which side of the

:18:35.:18:38.

line they stand. There are different elements within the

:18:38.:18:43.

church, different political stands within Christianity, and Giles, I

:18:43.:18:46.

think, is an example of someone who has taken a stance that other

:18:46.:18:50.

people in the church will disagree with. That is only healthy.

:18:50.:18:55.

But some voices in the church say events at St Paul's have been a PR

:18:55.:18:59.

disaster. And that the Clergy should pay more attention to

:18:59.:19:02.

spreading the lessons of the Bible rather than taking up issues in the

:19:02.:19:09.

news. The folk who are, in my opinion,

:19:09.:19:13.

getting it entirely wrong, are what I would describe as those who are

:19:13.:19:17.

utterly liberal, and anything goes, and we pick anything up from the

:19:17.:19:21.

local press, the newspapers, anything that is going in the media,

:19:22.:19:26.

and building it into the church and saying this is what we do now, we

:19:26.:19:30.

are now in 2012, everything is different, we have moved on. Wrong,

:19:30.:19:35.

we haven't. The Bible is still the Bible, the authoritative word of

:19:35.:19:39.

God, and we should be, I believe, living by that word, and that

:19:39.:19:45.

standard. We should be speaking out into the nation, into the world

:19:45.:19:50.

about God's word, about what Jesus said, and not taking on the world's

:19:50.:19:55.

view to our lives. Which is not going to do us any good.

:19:55.:20:02.

It is the routine, isn't it. Negotiate the deal. Close the deal.

:20:02.:20:11.

Celebrate the deal. Get slaughtered on 82Pomeron. The hit sitcom of the

:20:11.:20:17.

year follows the fortunes of doggedly conscientious London

:20:17.:20:22.

Clergyman, what with Rev and the argument at St Paul's, vicars find

:20:22.:20:29.

themselves in the unusual position of being in the public eye. Because

:20:29.:20:36.

I spilt my guts up there, Lehman's, the bank, very little came back,

:20:36.:20:39.

very little back, I don't think he they get it. It has turned out very

:20:39.:20:43.

well for the church, according to one historian. The church has found

:20:43.:20:48.

itself a for yum for debate, and because of what's happened, and

:20:48.:20:51.

because of the all awkwardness and the different ways the church is

:20:51.:20:56.

talking p it, people have paid far more interest in what leaders of

:20:56.:21:01.

the church have to say about economics, and politics, in this

:21:01.:21:06.

area, than they would do, simply if an Archbishop had addressed it in

:21:06.:21:10.

his Christmas ceremony Monday. what of the St Paul's camp itself,

:21:10.:21:14.

a judge will rule next week on an application by the Corporation of

:21:14.:21:18.

London, which would like to see the back of it. I think we are

:21:18.:21:24.

reasonable people. But very strong willed people. We will have to wait

:21:24.:21:28.

and see what happens. There are discussions happening in terms of

:21:28.:21:32.

what our response would be to that. But whatever happens the fight will

:21:32.:21:39.

continue. Both sides seem well dug in over

:21:39.:21:43.

the battle for the Cathedral. Barring an unexpected Pauline

:21:43.:21:51.

conversion. Giles Fraser is with us now for his

:21:51.:21:56.

first extended television interview, since he resigned. What do you

:21:56.:21:59.

think should happen to the Occupy camp? It is up to them to decide

:21:59.:22:03.

what they should do. If they want to stay there they should be

:22:03.:22:10.

allowed to? I think they need to think about, they raiseded an

:22:10.:22:12.

important issue, they have raised a really important issue. What would

:22:12.:22:17.

you like them to do? I would like them to keep on raising that issue.

:22:17.:22:20.

By staying there? I don't want to be in the position of saying for

:22:20.:22:24.

them to move on. I understand there are people who do want to say that.

:22:24.:22:30.

But I think the issue they have raised is sow important, and has

:22:30.:22:33.

actually galvanised a huge and important conversation, that though

:22:33.:22:36.

I understand there are very practical problems with the camp

:22:36.:22:39.

being there, and there are practical problems. There really

:22:39.:22:44.

are, aren't there? They are not insurmountable, but there are

:22:44.:22:47.

practicable problems. I think the bigger picture is the questions

:22:47.:22:51.

that they are raising. So I'm just staying with the bigger picture,

:22:51.:22:56.

and I'm going to duck some of the more practical, difficult, local

:22:56.:23:01.

issues. Because you don't know what the

:23:01.:23:04.

answers to those are? I don't know what the answers are, but they are

:23:04.:23:08.

doing such a valuable job in raising a big question about what

:23:08.:23:12.

is the nature of ethical capitalism. Can they do it in any other way

:23:12.:23:16.

than having a camp outside St Paul's? This is a global movement

:23:16.:23:19.

and very successful in generating precisely the conversation they

:23:19.:23:24.

have wanted to. So, to some extent I think it has been a very

:23:24.:23:31.

successful thing. So, despite the fact that many of the church

:23:31.:23:34.

authorities, and the Corporation of London, think that this is a

:23:34.:23:38.

nuisance, which should be removed, you just don't take a position

:23:38.:23:43.

either one way or the other? I just want to see the value in this

:23:43.:23:47.

situation. It is absolutely right that there are a sort of, there are

:23:47.:23:52.

practical problems with the camp being there. But actually, the

:23:52.:23:55.

practical problems can be overstated. I live 100 yard or so

:23:55.:24:00.

from the camp. Not for much longer? Not for that much longer. But I

:24:00.:24:05.

have done throughout its time there. I understand, I see it every day.

:24:05.:24:09.

People can walk through, there is no problem with people getting past

:24:09.:24:14.

that area. I actually think the problem most have with it is it is

:24:14.:24:17.

some sort of eyesore, that is actually the problem they have with

:24:17.:24:22.

it. As far as you are concerned it can stay there indefinitely?

:24:22.:24:27.

think there needs to be a well worked out exit strategy by the

:24:27.:24:32.

protestors themselves. They can't stay there for of. Actually they

:24:32.:24:36.

probably would have gone -- forever. Actually they probably would have

:24:36.:24:42.

gone by now had the Corporation of London not decided to take out the

:24:42.:24:47.

legal action. They misunderstood the psychology of protest, pushing

:24:47.:24:50.

against a protest means it will push it back. A nice cup of

:24:50.:24:54.

Anglican tea and warm embrace might have...they are raising important

:24:54.:24:57.

issues, I want to stay with the important issues. You are on the

:24:57.:24:59.

side of the people who are protesting? I believe in the right

:24:59.:25:05.

of people to peacefully protest, yes. Despite the fact that it

:25:05.:25:14.

inconviences others? Yes. You're quite right to say that my position

:25:14.:25:17.

is uncomfortable. It is not a position? It is, I think they are

:25:18.:25:22.

raising important issues, and...But When you were at the Cathedral, and

:25:22.:25:25.

you were what chairman of the Finance Committee, and the finances

:25:25.:25:30.

of the Cathedral were seriously affected by the presence of this

:25:30.:25:33.

camp, that was an impossible position to be in, wasn't? I don't

:25:33.:25:36.

think it was, really. I think the key issues are theological ones, it

:25:37.:25:41.

it is not about money, the question is what do we stand for as a

:25:41.:25:44.

church? As St Paul's Cathedral. What do you stand for as a church?

:25:44.:25:47.

What were the reasons for which the Cathedral was built. One has to go

:25:47.:25:54.

back to our founding ideas, go back to the Bible, as Alison said in

:25:54.:25:59.

your piece. If you look there you will see issues of economic justice

:25:59.:26:03.

are the number one moral issue in the Bible. It it is more than the

:26:03.:26:08.

obsession with sex and those sorts of things, that is what the Bible

:26:08.:26:11.

regularly goes on about. When the church is saying this is a real

:26:12.:26:15.

embarrassment to us, we are being deprived of an income of what

:26:15.:26:19.

�20,000 a day? Who is saying that. What church figures are standing up

:26:19.:26:25.

and saying that. One has to be very, very careful that we distinguish

:26:25.:26:32.

between the needs of a national icon, a building, and the church as

:26:32.:26:35.

an organisation that spread the gospel. There are times when those

:26:35.:26:39.

two things are in tension. My word, there is loads of tensions around

:26:39.:26:43.

preaching the gospel in a place like St Paul's Cathedral. You are,

:26:43.:26:46.

Jesus said some incredibly hard things about money, and you are

:26:46.:26:50.

saying them in the boiler room of global capitalism, it is obviously

:26:50.:26:54.

a hugely tense place into which to negotiate all of that difference.

:26:54.:26:58.

How much money are you spending a year on keeping St Paul's clean?

:26:58.:27:02.

lot money. Millions? Yes, we cleaned it over the last ten years

:27:02.:27:09.

and it was �42 million to clean the Cathedral. So absolutely right. You

:27:09.:27:14.

have to ask yourself about extraordinary compromises and

:27:14.:27:19.

balances between the needs of having this great, I believe in

:27:19.:27:23.

having church buildings, I do believe in having church buildings.

:27:23.:27:27.

But I believe you have to recognise the reasons for which those church

:27:27.:27:30.

buildings were built. Are you uncomfortable with the position the

:27:30.:27:36.

church has taken or failed to take so far on this whole crisis in

:27:36.:27:43.

western capitalism? I think the church was pretty slow out of the

:27:43.:27:50.

blokes in 2008, I think it had -- blocks in 2008. It had a pretty bad

:27:50.:27:53.

credit crunch. The church is beginning to realise it has to get

:27:53.:27:57.

its act together. There used to be very few sermons I can remember

:27:57.:28:03.

about money. Now I did a little bit of a survey on bishops' sermons

:28:03.:28:06.

over Christmas, and Occupy and issues of economics are more up

:28:06.:28:12.

there, good. If I say to you you are an old lefty, you used to be a

:28:12.:28:17.

member of the SWPE, you are carrying a similar sort of church

:28:17.:28:21.

in the Church of England, you would accept the distinction between

:28:21.:28:29.

constructive capitalism and predatory capitalism like Ed

:28:29.:28:32.

Milliband? I am not against capitalism, I used to be a Marxist

:28:32.:28:36.

in my youth, I am not any longerment I think we need a

:28:36.:28:40.

version of capitalism that works for a greater number of people.

:28:40.:28:44.

Have we got it now? I don't think we have it now. I don't think we

:28:44.:28:47.

know how to get it either. That is part of the problem. I don't I

:28:48.:28:54.

don't think the people. Taxation normally the way? As a way of

:28:54.:28:57.

redistributing it. That is one way of doing it, the problem is that

:28:57.:29:02.

the City is so powerful in terms of how much money that it generates

:29:02.:29:05.

through taxation, is that it ends up being itself too big to fail,

:29:05.:29:10.

too important in our economy, and so actually it tends to be able to

:29:10.:29:14.

have a sort of muscle which is very difficult for a Government to deal

:29:14.:29:19.

with. That's part the problem. It is the size and importance, it is

:29:19.:29:23.

not in balance, in proportion to other things. It would be lovely to

:29:23.:29:27.

see that. What would you do with it? The very interesting thing

:29:27.:29:30.

about the protestors, people criticiseded the protestors for

:29:30.:29:34.

saying they don't really know what they want, they don't know what to

:29:34.:29:39.

do with the situation. I have been to meetings of very distinguished

:29:39.:29:43.

merchant bankers and people involved in it, and I would say the

:29:43.:29:48.

same question, they would say they don't know either. The level of

:29:48.:29:52.

question about what ethical capitalism looks like is one that

:29:52.:29:58.

we are just beginning to grapple with. There are all sorts of

:29:58.:30:03.

technical things. The separation of casino banking from high street

:30:03.:30:08.

banking, the Vickers report, but actually economics used to be, with

:30:08.:30:12.

people like Adam Smith, it used to be a moral, it was part of morality,

:30:12.:30:15.

it was part of ethics, that is how it originate. It became something

:30:16.:30:22.

too techle kal, that most of us -- originate. It became something too

:30:22.:30:27.

technical for most of us to understand it. It wasn't the

:30:27.:30:31.

church's fault that we were fingers and thumbs about what a Credit

:30:31.:30:35.

Default Swap was. You and I wouldn't be able to explain that

:30:36.:30:41.

properly. We became distanced from it because it was too complicate.

:30:41.:30:47.

He has flickered not shone, that is the less than glowing report on one

:30:47.:30:53.

of -- from one of his advisers. There is a doctrine of Blue Labour,

:30:53.:30:57.

and using an article in the New Statesman to offer a critque of

:30:57.:31:02.

Labour at the moment. He said he was trying to be helpful. I spoke

:31:02.:31:06.

to the BBC's deputy political editor earlier.

:31:06.:31:11.

What has Lord Glasman had to say? Once you have waded through the

:31:11.:31:16.

article and the quotes and extraordinary phrases like "the

:31:17.:31:21.

frat ternisation of the impossible", when he gets to his critque of Ed

:31:21.:31:24.

Milliband he's explicit. He said Ed Milliband's leadership has no

:31:24.:31:29.

strategy, no narrative and little energy. He says Mr Miliband has not

:31:29.:31:33.

broken through. He has flickered rather than shone, and he has

:31:33.:31:38.

nudged not led. He also goes on to criticise Labour's economic policy

:31:38.:31:42.

at the moment. Specifically referring to old faces are from the

:31:42.:31:46.

Brown era, who are stuck in defending Labour's record in all

:31:46.:31:51.

the wrong ways. We didn't spend too much money, we will cut less fast,

:31:51.:31:55.

but we won't tell you how. Labour tonight are saying, look, Lord

:31:56.:31:59.

Glasman has had no official role within the Labour leadership. He's

:31:59.:32:03.

just a free-thinking backbench Labour peer and an axe dem you can.

:32:03.:32:08.

But this is a guy who -- academic, this is a guy who was given a

:32:08.:32:13.

peerage by Ed Milliband last year. He is one who has had Ed Milliband

:32:13.:32:18.

to write a forward for one of the books he has written. He has given

:32:18.:32:21.

advice to Ed Milliband in the past. It can't just be dismissed as

:32:21.:32:25.

Labour want to tonight. He has claimed he's merely wanting to be

:32:25.:32:29.

supportive, is he? He does say he supports Mr Miliband, and he does

:32:29.:32:34.

praise, in particular, Mr Miliband's campaign against what he

:32:34.:32:39.

calls called predatory capitalism. But this document will launch a

:32:39.:32:46.

thousand Conservative leaflets and posters, it will feed a lot of

:32:46.:32:49.

ammunition to Mr Cameron in Prime Minister's Questions in the days

:32:49.:32:53.

and weeks ahead. It gives voice to concerns shared by others in the

:32:53.:32:56.

Labour Party. Not just about Ed Milliband's leadership and people

:32:56.:32:59.

who want him to put vim into it. But also the debate taking place in

:32:59.:33:03.

Labour about its economic record in the past and how it gets into the

:33:03.:33:06.

economic debate into the future. How does it start taking the

:33:06.:33:09.

argument to the coalition, talking about growth, talking about deficit

:33:09.:33:15.

reduction. If as a party it has yet to face up to its own record in

:33:15.:33:18.

Government. That is what Lord Glasman is putting his fringeer on.

:33:18.:33:24.

It is a debate going on largely behind the scenes, tonight it is

:33:24.:33:28.

centre stage. Time to think about the rainforest. It is received

:33:28.:33:33.

wisdom that these enormous and enormously important expanses of

:33:33.:33:41.

the earth's surface are being destroyed as never before. Them

:33:41.:33:44.

Amazon rainforest has become the focus of intense national concern,

:33:44.:33:49.

as the Brazilian economy powers ahead to overtake our's. As Justin

:33:49.:33:57.

Rowlatt reports now, things are changing.

:33:57.:34:05.

In a sleepy town on the edge of the Amazon, officers from the Brazilian

:34:05.:34:11.

Environment Agency relax in the minces before a jungle raid.

:34:11.:34:16.

Inside their HQ, the commanders plan the attack. What he says is

:34:16.:34:20.

don't worey about guns, the guns that they have are -- worry about

:34:20.:34:25.

guns, the guns they have are likely to be hunting guns, nothing serious,

:34:25.:34:30.

nothing to worry about. For years the forest frontier was out of

:34:30.:34:38.

control. In the decade to 2004, an average of almost 20,000 square

:34:38.:34:43.

kilometres of forest was lost each year. That is really an area the

:34:43.:34:48.

size of Wales every single year. What has changed is the attitude of

:34:48.:34:58.
:34:58.:34:58.

the Brazilian Government. Eight years ago Brazil realised had

:34:58.:35:05.

a unique opportunity. It could go green, cut carbon emissions, just

:35:05.:35:10.

by stopping the destruction of the forest, and crucial low, it would

:35:10.:35:17.

barely affect economic growth. Brazil decided to declare war on

:35:17.:35:23.

deforestation. How confident are you that Brazil can successfully

:35:23.:35:29.

protect the Amazon? Total. TRANSLATION: You can't go into

:35:29.:35:33.

battle thinking you will lose. That is certainly what Churchill thought.

:35:33.:35:37.

In the past Brazil's forests were cut down because the state wanted

:35:37.:35:42.

them cut down. Now the state has decideded it doesn't want that any

:35:42.:35:50.

more. -- decided it doesn't want that any more. A key problem has

:35:50.:35:53.

always been the sheer size of the Amazon. There is a big area cleared

:35:53.:36:01.

completely. I can see a logging truck there in the clearing.

:36:01.:36:04.

We have just landed the helicopter and the officers are going over to

:36:04.:36:14.
:36:14.:36:20.

the truck here, which clearly has been with freshly cut logs on it.

:36:20.:36:25.

The guys have run off. The guys seem to have run off into the woods.

:36:25.:36:29.

They were here a moment ago. As we land they were still here. They

:36:29.:36:37.

must be around here some where. IBAMA has only six helicopters and

:36:37.:36:43.

600 officers in the field at any one time. Has to patrol an area of

:36:43.:36:53.

four million square kilometres, the size of a continent.

:36:53.:36:59.

But new technology has come to the aid of the Amazon. At the IBAMA

:36:59.:37:02.

head quarters Brasilia, they want to show me the powerful new weapon

:37:02.:37:08.

in their army. We are about to enter the nerve

:37:08.:37:13.

centre of Brazil's operation to stop deforestation. This is it?

:37:13.:37:20.

situation room. I have to say it is a little bit

:37:20.:37:25.

disappointing, it looks to me a bit like a call centre in a bank or

:37:25.:37:30.

insurance company, all these guys behind desks.

:37:30.:37:33.

But the new satellite monitoring technology they are using means it

:37:33.:37:38.

is now almost impossible to cut down tracts of the forest without

:37:38.:37:44.

being spot. How often do you get satellite images? Each two days we

:37:44.:37:50.

receive the images and send to our field people.

:37:50.:37:54.

So you can literally watch deforestation unfolding sitting

:37:54.:37:59.

here at your desk in the middle of Brasilia? We can arrive there and

:37:59.:38:04.

punish the people that are doing it. So you stop them just as they begin

:38:04.:38:12.

to cut the forest? Yes. It has made IBAMA muchp more effective. But the

:38:12.:38:15.

environment -- much more effective, but the Environment Agency still

:38:15.:38:20.

doesn't get its man every time. They have run off? Yes. They have

:38:20.:38:30.
:38:30.:38:30.

run off into the forest. What do we do now? So we're going to wait here

:38:30.:38:34.

for a bit and see what happens, see whether they come back.

:38:34.:38:44.
:38:44.:38:46.

I will be honest, seemed like a very long shot to me. Because it

:38:46.:38:51.

isn't just the attitude of the Government that is changing. John

:38:51.:39:01.
:39:01.:39:02.

Carter is an exUS special Ops soldier, turned Amazonian rauncher.

:39:02.:39:07.

Raunchers and farmers have traditionally been the baddies in

:39:07.:39:14.

this daughter. Relentlessly cutting down forest for cattle or crops.

:39:14.:39:19.

But John had a change of heart. He took me out to a project he has set

:39:19.:39:24.

up to project river turtles. That is amazing. Amazing, today is the

:39:25.:39:30.

day they are supposed to be hatch. They are quite strong these little

:39:30.:39:40.

things. He was about ten feet away from me, ten years ago, it

:39:40.:39:46.

epitomises the Amazon to me, and also the frontier wild wilderness

:39:46.:39:50.

that still exists. It was one thing I always tell my wife. If there is

:39:50.:39:54.

ever a day when there is no Jaguar left in the region, that is when I

:39:54.:39:59.

want to move. John leads an alliance of ranchers and farmers

:39:59.:40:02.

who want to improve environmental management on their farms. That

:40:03.:40:12.
:40:13.:40:15.

means protecting the forest too. John took me to see one of the

:40:15.:40:25.
:40:25.:40:30.

members of his alliance. He arrived here 26 years ago, this

:40:30.:40:34.

whole area was dense rainforest then. He has cut most of it down to

:40:34.:40:40.

grow soya. But the combination of tough new

:40:40.:40:44.

Government rules and John's silver- tongueed persuasion, have made him

:40:44.:40:54.
:40:54.:40:56.

change his ways. John's idealism has been like a light to us. I have

:40:56.:41:01.

3% forest now, I have planted new trees by my streams, the attitude

:41:01.:41:04.

of the farmers has really changed, he now we want to do the right

:41:04.:41:09.

thing. John's powers of persuasion became

:41:09.:41:14.

apparent when I found myself agreeing to a dip in the river near

:41:14.:41:21.

his ranch. Together with a black caiman, the Amazon's top predator.

:41:21.:41:25.

He just popped up out of the water and got him. The alliance has been

:41:25.:41:30.

running for five years now, and has 500 members, with farms covering

:41:30.:41:34.

almost three million hectares. John hopes in time there will be

:41:34.:41:38.

financial incentives for farmers to do the right thing too, access to

:41:38.:41:42.

new markets, maybe a premium price for their beef and soya. Our whole

:41:42.:41:45.

desire is to produce something the consumer can trust hands down.

:41:45.:41:50.

There will come a time when we have enough volume that we can supply

:41:50.:41:54.

McDonalds for all of Latin America. You know it is clean and truly

:41:54.:42:04.
:42:04.:42:05.

producing right. This combination of different pressures, improved

:42:05.:42:09.

monitoring and enforcement by the Brazilian Government, the

:42:09.:42:14.

beginnings of a change of attitude among Amazonian farmers, and

:42:14.:42:16.

successful campaigning among pressure groups, have come together

:42:16.:42:26.
:42:26.:42:28.

to remarkable effect. (gun shots)le

:42:28.:42:32.

The loggers did come back, here is one of them. He's a little bit

:42:32.:42:36.

shock to have been caught by us, and the helicopter is now coming

:42:36.:42:46.
:42:46.:42:48.

back, we will go and see if the agent will catch the other one.

:42:48.:42:54.

(Last year saw the lowest level of deforestation in the Amazon since

:42:54.:42:58.

records began in the 1980s, 6,000 square kilometres were cut. It

:42:58.:43:02.

seems the underlying economics haven't really changed. Does it

:43:02.:43:06.

worry you that you are damaging the forest? TRANSLATION: I know it is

:43:06.:43:12.

wrong, I have seen on TV, but what can I do? It I don't work I don't

:43:12.:43:22.
:43:22.:43:29.

eat. But in one remote Amazon state, they found a very unexpected way to

:43:29.:43:33.

begin to tilt the economics back in favour of the trees.

:43:33.:43:42.

It is 3.00am, I'm being led deep into the rainforest, wearing a

:43:42.:43:46.

rather bizarre traditional torch. Tito and I are equipped for action

:43:46.:43:53.

and about to head into the jungle to see a project that has achieved

:43:53.:43:59.

the Holy Grail of forest conservation, reversing the logic

:43:59.:44:03.

of deforestation, so it is more profitable for local people like

:44:03.:44:07.

Tito to keep the jungle standing than to cut it down. How have they

:44:07.:44:17.
:44:17.:44:27.

done it? It's hard, oh, oh. This is rubber-tapping done in the

:44:27.:44:36.

traditional way, from rubber trees growing wild in the jungle. So how

:44:36.:44:43.

have they managed to make wild Amazonian rubber profitable again?

:44:43.:44:50.

Here is how, they use it to make these, the world's first

:44:50.:44:57.

rainforest-friendly condoms! Hundreds of millions of them every

:44:57.:45:03.

year. This is a condom testing area. These ladies are officially condom

:45:03.:45:08.

testers. It is a funny job. He yes. But all of the activities here need

:45:08.:45:11.

subsidy, they wouldn't be profitable on their own. Where will

:45:11.:45:17.

you make them get that money from? All of our policies are trying to

:45:17.:45:21.

deforestation, if we protect the forest, we don't have the

:45:21.:45:26.

deforestation, if we don't have that we have carbon emissions. We

:45:26.:45:36.
:45:36.:45:40.

can have carbon credits that we can Those carbon credits could soon

:45:40.:45:45.

have real value. At last month's international climate conference in

:45:45.:45:50.

Durban, there was preliminary agreement on a scheme to

:45:50.:45:56.

fundamental cash, up to $-- funnel cash, up to $100 billion of it,

:45:56.:46:03.

into projects like this. But in the past year, there has

:46:03.:46:10.

been a huge backlash from the farming sector in Brazil.

:46:10.:46:14.

The Brazilian parliament has voted to cut the area of forest Amazon

:46:14.:46:19.

farmers have to keep on their land from 80 to 50%. The change can only

:46:19.:46:29.

be stopped if the Brazilian President vetos it.

:46:29.:46:35.

So, Dan, what are you doing? Well, we're just putting out a little

:46:35.:46:40.

kerosene, so the fire can get started. Dan Nepstad is studying

:46:41.:46:45.

the effect of fire on the forest, and the long-term future of the

:46:45.:46:51.

Amazon, he's one of the world's leading forest scientists. It

:46:51.:46:54.

doesn't feel right playing with much matches in the middle of the

:46:54.:46:59.

rainforest, but if you say it is in the name of science, you are the

:46:59.:47:02.

scientist. Do the honours. That is kind of you. Do I get the

:47:02.:47:07.

opportunity to set fire to the rainforest, to the Amazon.

:47:07.:47:11.

Incredible as it sounds, he believes it is not too late to save

:47:11.:47:15.

the Amazon. Almost 80% of the forest is still standing. 80%, but

:47:15.:47:20.

he says the battle has reached a crucial phase.

:47:21.:47:26.

In six years deforestation has come down 70% below the previous ten-

:47:26.:47:30.

year average. So Brazil really needs to be commended and applauded,

:47:30.:47:34.

this is a huge accomplishment. Whether they can keep it up, that

:47:34.:47:39.

is the big question. There is an alternative pathway

:47:39.:47:42.

that says the Government becomes more lax, the market signal

:47:42.:47:46.

disappears and it becomes a free- for-all, decisions made over the

:47:46.:47:51.

next few months will probably determine which direction Brazil

:47:51.:47:54.

goes. For years, the received wisdom has

:47:54.:47:59.

been that the world's tropical forests are doom. Well Brazil is

:47:59.:48:04.

demonstrating that deer forestation can be tamed. -- deforestation can

:48:04.:48:08.

be tamed. The achievements are fragile, but it is a cause for hope.

:48:08.:48:14.

Hope that this place, the Amazon rainforest, the greatest ecosystem

:48:14.:48:19.

As two men are sentenced for their part in the 1993 murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence, how far have relations between the police and the black community improved in the last 18 years? And more. Presented by Jeremy Paxman.


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