Browse content similar to 04/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Blin's biggest police force has promised to atone for past sins and | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
try to put more of the racists who killed Stephen Lawrence in jail. | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
The police are, they say, a changed, improved service, there for the | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
benefit of all. Just getting searched at the moment. | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
This happens quite frequently. yet many young black men's | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
experience of the police, seems significantly different to that of | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
many young white men. We will discuss just how you create | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
confidence when perceptions of peacekeeping and prejudice collide. | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
How did a few prordors in a collection of tents shake -- | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
protesterors in a collection of tents shake some of the pillars of | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
the Church of England. We will speak to the Canon Chancellor of St | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
Paul's who quit his job because he was so bothered by the issue. | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
And deforestation by force. We have just landed the helicopter, and the | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
officers are going over to the truck, which has freshly cut logs | :01:05. | :01:15. | |
:01:15. | :01:23. | ||
They were sentenced to 14 and 15 years in jail for what the judge | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
called a terrible and evil crime. And yet there was an incompleteness | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
about the conclusion of the trial of Stephen Lawrence's murderers. No | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
finality because Nair co- conspirators remain free, -- their | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
co-conspirators remain free. The police say they are massively | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
changed since the time Stephen Lawrence's murder. But as we report, | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
plenty of people think there is still a way to go. | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
Stephen Lawrence's murder has altered the police landscape in | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
Britain. Officers seemed to think he was a gang member, not innocent | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
victim, as he lay bleeding to death. The bungled investigation prompted | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
the Macpherson Inquiry, which branded the police, institutionally | :02:07. | :02:16. | |
racist. But how much has really changed. What's up with your mates, | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
why have they got the hump. I don't know mate. How are you doing. Now | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
we are going to stop you. For black and ethnic communities this is the | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
acid test, stop and search. We were given this video of a police search | :02:29. | :02:36. | |
carried out last week in Brixton. Would the female like to search me? | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
The police were suspicious because three of the group ran away, they | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
were looking for knives. My name is PJ Taylor. | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
Is that your full name? Yeah. Just getting searched at the moment. | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
This happens quite frequently. When people have done nothing. | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
We caught up with the man being searched, he runs his own start-up | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
media company in Brixton. The only thing he was carrying was a camera. | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
So PJ, what is going on here? I got stopped on Friday night, I | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
was filming a music video for a couple of guys in Brixton. A bully | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
van of officers, apparently from Bromley Station came and they just | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
searched us for no reason. Why do you call it a bully van? I don't | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
know, I'm being honest, I'm 22 years of age, I have grown up with | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
the term bully van, the only thing I can break it down, bullies come | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
out of the van. The officers or the police they are a gang. Because | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
they are all together, and they go out doing what they are doing. | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
Young black men are disproportionally stopped and | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
searched. Back in 1994, when Stephen Lawrence was murdered, 11% | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
of stops and searches under section 1 of the Police and Criminal | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
Evidence Act were black people. These require reasonable suspicion. | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
In 2010 the figure was 18%, in the same year in Britain the figure was | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
33.5%. But PJ was stopped under a different law. Section 60, brought | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
in to tackle football violence. These stops do not require | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
reasonable grounds for suspicion. In London, 48% of section 60 stops | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
in 20 09/10, were against black people. The police tend to trouble | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
a lot of black youths. I don't want it to sound racist, I'm half white | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
and black. They stereotype people because they see a black boy with | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
aed hood up. They automatically go with the stereotype and stop and | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
search them. These debates have a long history, | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
it was ainger at police tactics which were blamed -- ainger at the | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
police tactic that is were blamed for the Brixton riots. We caught up | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
with a community leader who witnessed the civil unrest in the | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
1980s and has a long view. When I was a young person involved in the | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
social unrest in 1991 in Leeds, a lot of the issues we had against | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
the police, the anger with the stop and search, and the general very | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
negative aggressive approach by the police, I don't believe that has | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
stopped. If anything it has got worse. You think it has got worse? | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
I think it has got worse. Bringing race into it is irrelevant, what is | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
important is you target the people committing the offences. If that | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
means that some police officers start to use stop and search in an | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
indiscriminate manner, they should be dealt with for doing that. At | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
the same time you don't want to frighten police officers from doing | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
their duty. Some blame ainger at the police for | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
the most recent -- anger at the police for the most recent riots in | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
the summer. Some say there are too few black police officers to | :05:53. | :06:03. | |
:06:03. | :06:11. | ||
But senior black police officers acting as role models are scarce. | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
In its way, this youth engagment agency, called Liberty, is designed | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
to help correct this problem. Here young people have opportunities to | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
work on a commercial magazine called Live, helping to shape | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
tomorrow's leaders, perhapsment you think there is an issue that | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
there are very few senior black police officers in the Metropolitan | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
Police? There just aren't that many very senior people? I think if the | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
issue at the moment is that, but it won't stay an issue. People are for | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
getting us being here at Live Magazine, what we're doing is | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
building a future for ourselves, the same as any other young black | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
person here. Not everyone is on the streets. That is the picture that | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
everyone has painted of us. And actually, there is a more of of us | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
changing that picture. There is a bit of racism, a lot of black | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
people do get stopped and searched, also because you are young and | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
depending on what you wear, you get stopped and searched. | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
The police have made progress, but there is still a surprising lack of | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
trust. Even from the man who helped shape the Met as drive to recruit | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
more black officers. Roger Noel had high hopes when he | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
modelled for this advert. I was very happy to do it. But I was in | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
the East End of London, but this time it wasn't just the white cop, | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
it was the black and white cop. So I was stopped, they slowed the car | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
down and asked me questions in a derogatry man, I replied, I said to | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
the black cop do you realise you got this job because of me, because | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
of my advertisment, or me representing the police. He thought | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
I wased mad. He didn't realise what I was talking about. The Lawrence | :07:55. | :08:04. | |
case was a watershed moment, not just for police but society. The | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
police have better policies now, implementing them systematically is | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
the big problem. With us is Rod Jarman, Acting | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
Deputy Commissioner with the Metropolitan Police until last year. | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
Cindy Butts a member of the Metropolitan Police authority, and | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
Madix, a former gang member, who has served time in prison and now | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
works with young gang members. The police have changed to all | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
intents and purposes, haven't they, since the days of Stephen Lawrence, | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
why is there still such a significant problem with a | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
significant section of the black community? I think for a range of | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
different reasons, actually. I think that a lot of the black | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
community actually do recognise the changes that have occurred. The | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
fact that policing now is much more professionlal, the way in which the | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
police investigate critical incidents and murders, the | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
introduction of family liaison officers. All of these very | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
positive things that have happened as a result, actually, of the | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
tragic murder of Stephen Lawrence and the subsequent Stephen Lawrence | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
inquiry. That said, I think there are still a number very key | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
challenges that the organisation still needs to face, not least, as | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
was said in the report, in terms of stop and search, and the | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
disproportionate numbers of young black men who are still stopped and | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
searched on the streets of London. That is a very corrosive issue, | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
that actually affects the trust and confidence that people have in the | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
police service. How corrosive is it, this question of stop and search? | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
It depends. You have got someed bad officers that just do it the wrong | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
way. They see it as a green light to have an opportunity to just | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
victimise people, you know, like there is some bad officers out | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
there. You might not believe it, but there is bad officers out there, | :09:44. | :09:53. | |
:09:54. | :09:54. | ||
giving a bad namer for the rest. you think they are a minority, the | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
bad officers? Nowadays they are a minority. These days they will get | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
moved to somewhere elsewhere they are not a problem, you know. So the | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
police have changed? The police have change. I'm 37, from a very | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
young age I was getting arrested and police now, because they have | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
gotten younger, they have got new recruits coming in, because they | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
are younger they are more down to earth, more diverse, more | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
acceptable to other people and other cultures. But they still have | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
the hierarchy, which are the old set mind people, who basically | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
control everything. Do you understand what I'm saying to you? | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
If a good officers, good in his heart, wanting to do his job, he | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
can't tell a bad officer that you can't behave like that towards the | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
youth, he has to back up his colleague, everybody ends up | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
looking bad, you lose trust in the police, everybody ends up doing | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
their own thing. How does it look to you? All of the research over | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
the past few years shows that feeling that you are treated fairly | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
and properly is a major issue around confidence. If parts of the | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
community don't feel they are treated fairly, that impacts on of | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
confidence in policing and the ability of the police to deliver | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
their job. I think Madix touch on something really important. There | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
are a number of officers who use stop and search frequently, they do | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
a lot of stop and search, but they do it in a way which is is seen as | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
acceptable and proper, with the people they are working with. They | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
do it in a way that is open, they understand the dynamic of what's | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
happening, and they work with people to carry out their search. | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
There are some others who aren't as God at it. It is a really difficult | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
thing to do -- good at it, it is a really difficult thing to do. And | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
there are some, as Madix describes, are those who shouldn't be on the | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
streets doing these things. The mix of all that together, particularly | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
with the way we police in London, means for some people, for some | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
communities, there is a real feeling of unfairness. How big an | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
issue is this question of the ethnic nature of the police? | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
Clearly the proportion of ethnic minority police officers has gone | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
up. Still at the very top of the police, there are 117 senior | :12:07. | :12:14. | |
officers, three of mem belong to black and the nick comue -- them | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
belong to black and ethnic communities? I don't think it | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
matters if you are white, black or blue, to be a police officer you | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
have to be a certain frame of mind and mentality, if you have that you | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
will get into the police force. It is a mentality, I don't think | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
putting 1,000 black officers in the police will change them. I disagree. | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
I really think it is important that our public. It is good to see them | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
there, but it doesn't change anything. It is crucial that they | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
reflect the population they serve. The black police officers that are | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
there do show they are able to change from the inside. If you look | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
at the work, First Minister, of the Black Police Association, and other | :12:51. | :12:58. | |
key individual -- for instance of the Black Police Association, and | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
other key individual, not just trying to cajole their white | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
officers to be better, but working as a key conduit between the black | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
community. They play a dual role inside and outside the the figures | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
that we see, the increase that we see in BME officers, is good, but | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
it isn't nearly as good as what it ought to be. All too often the | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
police's argument is it takes time to get there. That is partially | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
true. But actually, given that we have taken, it has taken so long, I | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
mean, I think that there needs to be a more radical solution to this. | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
Positive discrimination? absolutely not. I chaired the race | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
and faith inquiry, we delivered our report in 2010, one of our key | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
recommendations that the Government introduce multipoint entry, so | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
people can enter the service at different levels. I think that will | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
be a key aspect in solving the representation issue. There is a | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
thing which I think we mustn't miss, the police service over the past | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
ten years has put an awful lot of for the into changing what it looks | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
like.S focus on getting black and the nick minority people to join | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
the force. -- ethnic minority people to join the force. People | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
weren't joining ten years ago. We are now in a position where people | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
are joining and coming through. I think Cindy is right, the race and | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
faith inquiry and all the inquiries to date have really failed to | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
galvanise the movement of black and ethnic minority officers through | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
the ranks into the positions of senior leadership. Something | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
different needs to be done. But what I have seen in the last few | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
years something different, in the way that people are being held up | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
and brought along, and in the way that Liberty group we are talking | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
about, actually given the power to get through themselves, rather than | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
to be forced or shoe horn into a new post. How much -- shoe horned | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
into a new post. How much of the rioting we saw in the summer was | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
about the chasam between some young people and the police? | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
personally, firstly, about these black officers, sorry, I have to | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
say this, these black officers that are in the police and in the | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
communities, usually, yeah, nine times out of ten, they are the ones | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
that step out of the van first, and be rude, because they are black, do | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
you understand. They will force themselves. That is one heck of a | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
generalisation? I have seen it, street level, I have seen it many | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
times, do you understand, don't get me wrong, there is black officers | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
that are good and doing what they are supposeded to be doing, a lot | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
of the time, a lot of these ethnic minorities are coming out at these | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
at black people, because they are black. Thinking they have got the | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
right to be extra, because they are black. I'm not talking from figures, | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
I haven't seen no figures or statistics, I'm talking about me | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
being on the street and talking to the youth, I deal with them every | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
day. How much do you think the riot that is we saw this summer were to | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
do with the chasam between some young people and the police? | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
think it was an aspect, but it wasn't, I think we need to be | :16:07. | :16:14. | |
careful not to rayify what happened, the riots took on different forms | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
in different places at different times. Some of it was opportuneism, | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
some of it is relate to poverty and desperation. Some of it was mass | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
hysteria, jumping on the bandwagon. Some people had the opportunity to | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
have the most exciting experience of their life, and they have said | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
so. It is important to keep it into perspective, and don't run away | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
with the idea that the riots were as a result of police community | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
relations. That may have been the case in 1981, it wasn't the case in | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
2011. Thank you very much. | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
The people camp outside St Paul's Cathedral have a minimum of seven | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
days before they discover whether the courts are going to let them | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
stay there. Their effect on global capitalism so far hasn't been | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
noticable, their effect on the Church of England has been enormous. | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
Two senior clerics have fallen on their swords or out of their pulpit, | :17:06. | :17:13. | |
whatever the expression. The church as a whole seems highly | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
discombobulated about the situation and what it has to say about | :17:16. | :17:26. | |
:17:26. | :17:28. | ||
western capitalism. It was an unholy row. | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
The combination of Wren's masterpiece, anti-capitalist | :17:34. | :17:42. | |
demonstrators and church politics, proved to be a volatile mix. It led | :17:42. | :17:50. | |
to the voluntary defenestration of Giles Fraser, he resigned as Canon | :17:50. | :17:57. | |
Chancellor at St Paul's, this a pre-emptive measure against the | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
forcible eviction of people in this camp, that hasn't happened, at | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
least not yet. On the night the protestors arrived, last October, | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
Mr Fraser had personally intervened with the police to prevent them | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
being removed. We are very happy for people to exer size their right | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
peacefully to protest. That is what they are doing. The Parson has come | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
down from the Cathedral and the police, and they did, there was no | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
damage. The authorities of the Channel Tunnel were clearly willing | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
to agree to the -- of the church were clearly willing to agree to | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
the forcible eviction of the protestors, it comes a point where | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
every person, church leader or not has to decide which side of the | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
line they stand. There are different elements within the | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
church, different political stands within Christianity, and Giles, I | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
think, is an example of someone who has taken a stance that other | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
people in the church will disagree with. That is only healthy. | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
But some voices in the church say events at St Paul's have been a PR | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
disaster. And that the Clergy should pay more attention to | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
spreading the lessons of the Bible rather than taking up issues in the | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
news. The folk who are, in my opinion, | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
getting it entirely wrong, are what I would describe as those who are | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
utterly liberal, and anything goes, and we pick anything up from the | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
local press, the newspapers, anything that is going in the media, | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
and building it into the church and saying this is what we do now, we | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
are now in 2012, everything is different, we have moved on. Wrong, | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
we haven't. The Bible is still the Bible, the authoritative word of | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
God, and we should be, I believe, living by that word, and that | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
standard. We should be speaking out into the nation, into the world | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
about God's word, about what Jesus said, and not taking on the world's | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
view to our lives. Which is not going to do us any good. | :19:55. | :20:02. | |
It is the routine, isn't it. Negotiate the deal. Close the deal. | :20:02. | :20:11. | |
Celebrate the deal. Get slaughtered on 82Pomeron. The hit sitcom of the | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
year follows the fortunes of doggedly conscientious London | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
Clergyman, what with Rev and the argument at St Paul's, vicars find | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
themselves in the unusual position of being in the public eye. Because | :20:29. | :20:36. | |
I spilt my guts up there, Lehman's, the bank, very little came back, | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
very little back, I don't think he they get it. It has turned out very | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
well for the church, according to one historian. The church has found | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
itself a for yum for debate, and because of what's happened, and | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
because of the all awkwardness and the different ways the church is | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
talking p it, people have paid far more interest in what leaders of | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
the church have to say about economics, and politics, in this | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
area, than they would do, simply if an Archbishop had addressed it in | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
his Christmas ceremony Monday. what of the St Paul's camp itself, | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
a judge will rule next week on an application by the Corporation of | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
London, which would like to see the back of it. I think we are | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
reasonable people. But very strong willed people. We will have to wait | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
and see what happens. There are discussions happening in terms of | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
what our response would be to that. But whatever happens the fight will | :21:32. | :21:39. | |
continue. Both sides seem well dug in over | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
the battle for the Cathedral. Barring an unexpected Pauline | :21:43. | :21:51. | |
conversion. Giles Fraser is with us now for his | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
first extended television interview, since he resigned. What do you | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
think should happen to the Occupy camp? It is up to them to decide | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
what they should do. If they want to stay there they should be | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
allowed to? I think they need to think about, they raiseded an | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
important issue, they have raised a really important issue. What would | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
you like them to do? I would like them to keep on raising that issue. | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
By staying there? I don't want to be in the position of saying for | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
them to move on. I understand there are people who do want to say that. | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
But I think the issue they have raised is sow important, and has | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
actually galvanised a huge and important conversation, that though | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
I understand there are very practical problems with the camp | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
being there, and there are practical problems. There really | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
are, aren't there? They are not insurmountable, but there are | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
practicable problems. I think the bigger picture is the questions | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
that they are raising. So I'm just staying with the bigger picture, | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
and I'm going to duck some of the more practical, difficult, local | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
issues. Because you don't know what the | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
answers to those are? I don't know what the answers are, but they are | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
doing such a valuable job in raising a big question about what | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
is the nature of ethical capitalism. Can they do it in any other way | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
than having a camp outside St Paul's? This is a global movement | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
and very successful in generating precisely the conversation they | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
have wanted to. So, to some extent I think it has been a very | :23:24. | :23:31. | |
successful thing. So, despite the fact that many of the church | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
authorities, and the Corporation of London, think that this is a | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
nuisance, which should be removed, you just don't take a position | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
either one way or the other? I just want to see the value in this | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
situation. It is absolutely right that there are a sort of, there are | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
practical problems with the camp being there. But actually, the | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
practical problems can be overstated. I live 100 yard or so | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
from the camp. Not for much longer? Not for that much longer. But I | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
have done throughout its time there. I understand, I see it every day. | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
People can walk through, there is no problem with people getting past | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
that area. I actually think the problem most have with it is it is | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
some sort of eyesore, that is actually the problem they have with | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
it. As far as you are concerned it can stay there indefinitely? | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
think there needs to be a well worked out exit strategy by the | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
protestors themselves. They can't stay there for of. Actually they | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
probably would have gone -- forever. Actually they probably would have | :24:36. | :24:42. | |
gone by now had the Corporation of London not decided to take out the | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
legal action. They misunderstood the psychology of protest, pushing | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
against a protest means it will push it back. A nice cup of | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
Anglican tea and warm embrace might have...they are raising important | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
issues, I want to stay with the important issues. You are on the | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
side of the people who are protesting? I believe in the right | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
of people to peacefully protest, yes. Despite the fact that it | :25:05. | :25:14. | |
inconviences others? Yes. You're quite right to say that my position | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
is uncomfortable. It is not a position? It is, I think they are | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
raising important issues, and...But When you were at the Cathedral, and | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
you were what chairman of the Finance Committee, and the finances | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
of the Cathedral were seriously affected by the presence of this | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
camp, that was an impossible position to be in, wasn't? I don't | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
think it was, really. I think the key issues are theological ones, it | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
it is not about money, the question is what do we stand for as a | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
church? As St Paul's Cathedral. What do you stand for as a church? | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
What were the reasons for which the Cathedral was built. One has to go | :25:47. | :25:54. | |
back to our founding ideas, go back to the Bible, as Alison said in | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
your piece. If you look there you will see issues of economic justice | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
are the number one moral issue in the Bible. It it is more than the | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
obsession with sex and those sorts of things, that is what the Bible | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
regularly goes on about. When the church is saying this is a real | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
embarrassment to us, we are being deprived of an income of what | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
�20,000 a day? Who is saying that. What church figures are standing up | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
and saying that. One has to be very, very careful that we distinguish | :26:25. | :26:32. | |
between the needs of a national icon, a building, and the church as | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
an organisation that spread the gospel. There are times when those | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
two things are in tension. My word, there is loads of tensions around | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
preaching the gospel in a place like St Paul's Cathedral. You are, | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
Jesus said some incredibly hard things about money, and you are | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
saying them in the boiler room of global capitalism, it is obviously | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
a hugely tense place into which to negotiate all of that difference. | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
How much money are you spending a year on keeping St Paul's clean? | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
lot money. Millions? Yes, we cleaned it over the last ten years | :27:02. | :27:09. | |
and it was �42 million to clean the Cathedral. So absolutely right. You | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
have to ask yourself about extraordinary compromises and | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
balances between the needs of having this great, I believe in | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
having church buildings, I do believe in having church buildings. | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
But I believe you have to recognise the reasons for which those church | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
buildings were built. Are you uncomfortable with the position the | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
church has taken or failed to take so far on this whole crisis in | :27:36. | :27:43. | |
western capitalism? I think the church was pretty slow out of the | :27:43. | :27:50. | |
blokes in 2008, I think it had -- blocks in 2008. It had a pretty bad | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
credit crunch. The church is beginning to realise it has to get | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
its act together. There used to be very few sermons I can remember | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
about money. Now I did a little bit of a survey on bishops' sermons | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
over Christmas, and Occupy and issues of economics are more up | :28:06. | :28:12. | |
there, good. If I say to you you are an old lefty, you used to be a | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
member of the SWPE, you are carrying a similar sort of church | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
in the Church of England, you would accept the distinction between | :28:21. | :28:29. | |
constructive capitalism and predatory capitalism like Ed | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
Milliband? I am not against capitalism, I used to be a Marxist | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
in my youth, I am not any longerment I think we need a | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
version of capitalism that works for a greater number of people. | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
Have we got it now? I don't think we have it now. I don't think we | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
know how to get it either. That is part of the problem. I don't I | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
don't think the people. Taxation normally the way? As a way of | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
redistributing it. That is one way of doing it, the problem is that | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
the City is so powerful in terms of how much money that it generates | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
through taxation, is that it ends up being itself too big to fail, | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
too important in our economy, and so actually it tends to be able to | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
have a sort of muscle which is very difficult for a Government to deal | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
with. That's part the problem. It is the size and importance, it is | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
not in balance, in proportion to other things. It would be lovely to | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
see that. What would you do with it? The very interesting thing | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
about the protestors, people criticiseded the protestors for | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
saying they don't really know what they want, they don't know what to | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
do with the situation. I have been to meetings of very distinguished | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
merchant bankers and people involved in it, and I would say the | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
same question, they would say they don't know either. The level of | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
question about what ethical capitalism looks like is one that | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
we are just beginning to grapple with. There are all sorts of | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
technical things. The separation of casino banking from high street | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
banking, the Vickers report, but actually economics used to be, with | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
people like Adam Smith, it used to be a moral, it was part of morality, | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
it was part of ethics, that is how it originate. It became something | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
too techle kal, that most of us -- originate. It became something too | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
technical for most of us to understand it. It wasn't the | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
church's fault that we were fingers and thumbs about what a Credit | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
Default Swap was. You and I wouldn't be able to explain that | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
properly. We became distanced from it because it was too complicate. | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
He has flickered not shone, that is the less than glowing report on one | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
of -- from one of his advisers. There is a doctrine of Blue Labour, | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
and using an article in the New Statesman to offer a critque of | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
Labour at the moment. He said he was trying to be helpful. I spoke | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
to the BBC's deputy political editor earlier. | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
What has Lord Glasman had to say? Once you have waded through the | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
article and the quotes and extraordinary phrases like "the | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
frat ternisation of the impossible", when he gets to his critque of Ed | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
Milliband he's explicit. He said Ed Milliband's leadership has no | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
strategy, no narrative and little energy. He says Mr Miliband has not | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
broken through. He has flickered rather than shone, and he has | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
nudged not led. He also goes on to criticise Labour's economic policy | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
at the moment. Specifically referring to old faces are from the | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
Brown era, who are stuck in defending Labour's record in all | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
the wrong ways. We didn't spend too much money, we will cut less fast, | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
but we won't tell you how. Labour tonight are saying, look, Lord | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
Glasman has had no official role within the Labour leadership. He's | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
just a free-thinking backbench Labour peer and an axe dem you can. | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
But this is a guy who -- academic, this is a guy who was given a | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
peerage by Ed Milliband last year. He is one who has had Ed Milliband | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
to write a forward for one of the books he has written. He has given | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
advice to Ed Milliband in the past. It can't just be dismissed as | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
Labour want to tonight. He has claimed he's merely wanting to be | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
supportive, is he? He does say he supports Mr Miliband, and he does | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
praise, in particular, Mr Miliband's campaign against what he | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
calls called predatory capitalism. But this document will launch a | :32:39. | :32:46. | |
thousand Conservative leaflets and posters, it will feed a lot of | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
ammunition to Mr Cameron in Prime Minister's Questions in the days | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
and weeks ahead. It gives voice to concerns shared by others in the | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
Labour Party. Not just about Ed Milliband's leadership and people | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
who want him to put vim into it. But also the debate taking place in | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
Labour about its economic record in the past and how it gets into the | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
economic debate into the future. How does it start taking the | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
argument to the coalition, talking about growth, talking about deficit | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
reduction. If as a party it has yet to face up to its own record in | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
Government. That is what Lord Glasman is putting his fringeer on. | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
It is a debate going on largely behind the scenes, tonight it is | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
centre stage. Time to think about the rainforest. It is received | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
wisdom that these enormous and enormously important expanses of | :33:33. | :33:41. | |
the earth's surface are being destroyed as never before. Them | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
Amazon rainforest has become the focus of intense national concern, | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
as the Brazilian economy powers ahead to overtake our's. As Justin | :33:49. | :33:57. | |
Rowlatt reports now, things are changing. | :33:57. | :34:05. | |
In a sleepy town on the edge of the Amazon, officers from the Brazilian | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
Environment Agency relax in the minces before a jungle raid. | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
Inside their HQ, the commanders plan the attack. What he says is | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
don't worey about guns, the guns that they have are -- worry about | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
guns, the guns they have are likely to be hunting guns, nothing serious, | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
nothing to worry about. For years the forest frontier was out of | :34:30. | :34:38. | |
control. In the decade to 2004, an average of almost 20,000 square | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
kilometres of forest was lost each year. That is really an area the | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
size of Wales every single year. What has changed is the attitude of | :34:48. | :34:58. | |
:34:58. | :34:58. | ||
the Brazilian Government. Eight years ago Brazil realised had | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
a unique opportunity. It could go green, cut carbon emissions, just | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
by stopping the destruction of the forest, and crucial low, it would | :35:10. | :35:17. | |
barely affect economic growth. Brazil decided to declare war on | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
deforestation. How confident are you that Brazil can successfully | :35:23. | :35:29. | |
protect the Amazon? Total. TRANSLATION: You can't go into | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
battle thinking you will lose. That is certainly what Churchill thought. | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
In the past Brazil's forests were cut down because the state wanted | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
them cut down. Now the state has decideded it doesn't want that any | :35:42. | :35:50. | |
more. -- decided it doesn't want that any more. A key problem has | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
always been the sheer size of the Amazon. There is a big area cleared | :35:53. | :36:01. | |
completely. I can see a logging truck there in the clearing. | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
We have just landed the helicopter and the officers are going over to | :36:04. | :36:14. | |
:36:14. | :36:20. | ||
the truck here, which clearly has been with freshly cut logs on it. | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
The guys have run off. The guys seem to have run off into the woods. | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
They were here a moment ago. As we land they were still here. They | :36:29. | :36:37. | |
must be around here some where. IBAMA has only six helicopters and | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
600 officers in the field at any one time. Has to patrol an area of | :36:43. | :36:53. | |
four million square kilometres, the size of a continent. | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
But new technology has come to the aid of the Amazon. At the IBAMA | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
head quarters Brasilia, they want to show me the powerful new weapon | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
in their army. We are about to enter the nerve | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
centre of Brazil's operation to stop deforestation. This is it? | :37:13. | :37:20. | |
situation room. I have to say it is a little bit | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
disappointing, it looks to me a bit like a call centre in a bank or | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
insurance company, all these guys behind desks. | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
But the new satellite monitoring technology they are using means it | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
is now almost impossible to cut down tracts of the forest without | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
being spot. How often do you get satellite images? Each two days we | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
receive the images and send to our field people. | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
So you can literally watch deforestation unfolding sitting | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
here at your desk in the middle of Brasilia? We can arrive there and | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
punish the people that are doing it. So you stop them just as they begin | :38:04. | :38:12. | |
to cut the forest? Yes. It has made IBAMA muchp more effective. But the | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
environment -- much more effective, but the Environment Agency still | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
doesn't get its man every time. They have run off? Yes. They have | :38:20. | :38:30. | |
:38:30. | :38:30. | ||
run off into the forest. What do we do now? So we're going to wait here | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
for a bit and see what happens, see whether they come back. | :38:34. | :38:44. | |
:38:44. | :38:46. | ||
I will be honest, seemed like a very long shot to me. Because it | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
isn't just the attitude of the Government that is changing. John | :38:51. | :39:01. | |
:39:01. | :39:02. | ||
Carter is an exUS special Ops soldier, turned Amazonian rauncher. | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
Raunchers and farmers have traditionally been the baddies in | :39:07. | :39:14. | |
this daughter. Relentlessly cutting down forest for cattle or crops. | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
But John had a change of heart. He took me out to a project he has set | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
up to project river turtles. That is amazing. Amazing, today is the | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
day they are supposed to be hatch. They are quite strong these little | :39:30. | :39:40. | |
things. He was about ten feet away from me, ten years ago, it | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
epitomises the Amazon to me, and also the frontier wild wilderness | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
that still exists. It was one thing I always tell my wife. If there is | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
ever a day when there is no Jaguar left in the region, that is when I | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
want to move. John leads an alliance of ranchers and farmers | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
who want to improve environmental management on their farms. That | :40:03. | :40:12. | |
:40:13. | :40:15. | ||
means protecting the forest too. John took me to see one of the | :40:15. | :40:25. | |
:40:25. | :40:30. | ||
members of his alliance. He arrived here 26 years ago, this | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
whole area was dense rainforest then. He has cut most of it down to | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
grow soya. But the combination of tough new | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
Government rules and John's silver- tongueed persuasion, have made him | :40:44. | :40:54. | |
:40:54. | :40:56. | ||
change his ways. John's idealism has been like a light to us. I have | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
3% forest now, I have planted new trees by my streams, the attitude | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
of the farmers has really changed, he now we want to do the right | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
thing. John's powers of persuasion became | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
apparent when I found myself agreeing to a dip in the river near | :41:14. | :41:21. | |
his ranch. Together with a black caiman, the Amazon's top predator. | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
He just popped up out of the water and got him. The alliance has been | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
running for five years now, and has 500 members, with farms covering | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
almost three million hectares. John hopes in time there will be | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
financial incentives for farmers to do the right thing too, access to | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
new markets, maybe a premium price for their beef and soya. Our whole | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
desire is to produce something the consumer can trust hands down. | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
There will come a time when we have enough volume that we can supply | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
McDonalds for all of Latin America. You know it is clean and truly | :41:54. | :42:04. | |
:42:04. | :42:05. | ||
producing right. This combination of different pressures, improved | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
monitoring and enforcement by the Brazilian Government, the | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
beginnings of a change of attitude among Amazonian farmers, and | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
successful campaigning among pressure groups, have come together | :42:16. | :42:26. | |
:42:26. | :42:28. | ||
to remarkable effect. (gun shots)le | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
The loggers did come back, here is one of them. He's a little bit | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
shock to have been caught by us, and the helicopter is now coming | :42:36. | :42:46. | |
:42:46. | :42:48. | ||
back, we will go and see if the agent will catch the other one. | :42:48. | :42:54. | |
(Last year saw the lowest level of deforestation in the Amazon since | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
records began in the 1980s, 6,000 square kilometres were cut. It | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
seems the underlying economics haven't really changed. Does it | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
worry you that you are damaging the forest? TRANSLATION: I know it is | :43:06. | :43:12. | |
wrong, I have seen on TV, but what can I do? It I don't work I don't | :43:12. | :43:22. | |
:43:22. | :43:29. | ||
eat. But in one remote Amazon state, they found a very unexpected way to | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
begin to tilt the economics back in favour of the trees. | :43:33. | :43:42. | |
It is 3.00am, I'm being led deep into the rainforest, wearing a | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
rather bizarre traditional torch. Tito and I are equipped for action | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
and about to head into the jungle to see a project that has achieved | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
the Holy Grail of forest conservation, reversing the logic | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
of deforestation, so it is more profitable for local people like | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
Tito to keep the jungle standing than to cut it down. How have they | :44:07. | :44:17. | |
:44:17. | :44:27. | ||
done it? It's hard, oh, oh. This is rubber-tapping done in the | :44:27. | :44:36. | |
traditional way, from rubber trees growing wild in the jungle. So how | :44:36. | :44:43. | |
have they managed to make wild Amazonian rubber profitable again? | :44:43. | :44:50. | |
Here is how, they use it to make these, the world's first | :44:50. | :44:57. | |
rainforest-friendly condoms! Hundreds of millions of them every | :44:57. | :45:03. | |
year. This is a condom testing area. These ladies are officially condom | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
testers. It is a funny job. He yes. But all of the activities here need | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
subsidy, they wouldn't be profitable on their own. Where will | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
you make them get that money from? All of our policies are trying to | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
deforestation, if we protect the forest, we don't have the | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
deforestation, if we don't have that we have carbon emissions. We | :45:26. | :45:36. | |
:45:36. | :45:40. | ||
can have carbon credits that we can Those carbon credits could soon | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
have real value. At last month's international climate conference in | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
Durban, there was preliminary agreement on a scheme to | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
fundamental cash, up to $-- funnel cash, up to $100 billion of it, | :45:56. | :46:03. | |
into projects like this. But in the past year, there has | :46:03. | :46:10. | |
been a huge backlash from the farming sector in Brazil. | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
The Brazilian parliament has voted to cut the area of forest Amazon | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
farmers have to keep on their land from 80 to 50%. The change can only | :46:19. | :46:29. | |
be stopped if the Brazilian President vetos it. | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
So, Dan, what are you doing? Well, we're just putting out a little | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
kerosene, so the fire can get started. Dan Nepstad is studying | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
the effect of fire on the forest, and the long-term future of the | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
Amazon, he's one of the world's leading forest scientists. It | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
doesn't feel right playing with much matches in the middle of the | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
rainforest, but if you say it is in the name of science, you are the | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
scientist. Do the honours. That is kind of you. Do I get the | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
opportunity to set fire to the rainforest, to the Amazon. | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
Incredible as it sounds, he believes it is not too late to save | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
the Amazon. Almost 80% of the forest is still standing. 80%, but | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
he says the battle has reached a crucial phase. | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
In six years deforestation has come down 70% below the previous ten- | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
year average. So Brazil really needs to be commended and applauded, | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
this is a huge accomplishment. Whether they can keep it up, that | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
is the big question. There is an alternative pathway | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
that says the Government becomes more lax, the market signal | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
disappears and it becomes a free- for-all, decisions made over the | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
next few months will probably determine which direction Brazil | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
goes. For years, the received wisdom has | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
been that the world's tropical forests are doom. Well Brazil is | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
demonstrating that deer forestation can be tamed. -- deforestation can | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
be tamed. The achievements are fragile, but it is a cause for hope. | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
Hope that this place, the Amazon rainforest, the greatest ecosystem | :48:14. | :48:19. |