03/01/2012 Newsnight


03/01/2012

Newsnight examines how a jury found two white men guilty of murdering the black teenager Stephen Lawrence in a brutal racist stabbing that shocked Britain almost two decades ago.


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Transcript


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Tonight, nearly two decades after the event, at last two men face

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jail for one of the most notorious murders in recent history.

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Stephen Lawrence was 18 when he was killed. It has taken the equivalent

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of his entire lifetime to get a conviction. Why? Have the police

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done -- had the police done their job properly, I would have spent

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the last 18 years grieving for my son, rather than fighting to get

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his killers to court. We will assess the legacy of this

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extraordinary case, and what difference today's verdict will

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make. The race for the White House

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officially opens, with the Iowa caucuses. What pointers for the

:00:45.:00:52.

election? Would you let any Tom dick or Harry stick one of these in

:00:52.:00:57.

your chest. Why is Britain's cosmetic surgery so unregulate. We

:00:57.:01:01.

talk to the Libyan novelist, Hisham Matar, about how his country is

:01:01.:01:09.

crawling out of the shadow of Gaddafi.

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The attack which killed Stephen Lawrence was carried out in seconds.

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It has taken 18 years for anyone to be convicted of the murder. In the

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end, justice has been done, or partially done, with the conviction

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of two men out of a much bigger gang of racists responsible for a

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crime which exposeded the incompetence and prejudice of

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Britain's biggest police force. The anger and disappointment of Stephen

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Lawrence's parents of the failure of the police, was only partially

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tempered by today's convictions. Anna Adams has more the

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A teenager immortalised for all the wrong reasons. Stephen Lawrence was

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more than a murder victim, he became a symbol for Britain at its

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most racist. Images from the case became etched on the public

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consciousness, from the brawling scenes and the murder itself. At

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the heart of it, Stephen's parents, and their 18 years of campaigning,

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which kept this case open. Doreen and Neville Lawrence had powerful

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advocates to their cause, and launched a powerful prosecution in

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1994. That was unsuccessful, but today, two of the five original

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suspect, Gary Dobson and David Norris, were finally found guilty

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of his murder. But reactions were mixed outside the court. How can I

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celebrate when I know that this day could have come 18 years ago, if

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the police, who were meant to find my son's killers, failed so

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miserably to do so. These are not a reason to celebrate. There have

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been several investigations over the last 18 years, during which the

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Lawrence family have campaigned tirelessly for justice. This

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prosecution has depended upon previously unavailable scientific

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technology and techniques, which led to the discovery of the new

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evidence. Nothing can undo the fact that back in 1993, the police lost

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their way with this case, very badly. The opportunity for example,

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to gather a really rich hoard of forensic evidence was lost. They

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just screwed up. And so, no arrests for two weeks, the defendants had a

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time to wash, launder their clothe, clone their bathrooms, remove

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pretty well every trace, as we see, we are down to microscopic traces,

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before any clothes were seized. The case exposed the deep-rooted

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problems between police and the black community, as Newsnight found

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out two weeks after the murder. can't trust them. They pick you up

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for nothing. Jacking you up because your black. The senior policeman

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who run this is area was telling me the advice he would give you lot

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was think seriously about joining the police force. (laughter) Edward

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Jarman was with the Metaphor 32 years, he took the lead on race and

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diversity issues. I don't think we are there with the whole issue of

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race and an understanding. Part of that is we never will be because

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the dynamics of diversity are constantly changing. The ethnic

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make-up of London is changing as we peek. The issues are constantly --

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speak, and the issues are constantly evolving into new

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thingsment we are in a different place, we have a long way to go.

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When you start talking about the use of a police power and the

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feeling of it being disproportionate, as long as a

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particular part of the community feel they are being policed

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unfairly, we won't gain all the confidence and the police service

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won't get all the information and support it needs. But the

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Macpherson Inquiry into the case prompted some incredible changes.

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The law of double jeopardy, which prevented suspects from being tried

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twice was scrapped. Without that Gary Dobson would not have been

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found guilty today. But there were also much deeper changes to race

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relations. This was the first case in which the public had got behind

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the family of a black victim of murder. That was historic. But I

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think the implications of the case go wider. I think that people

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understood that racism was something different and something

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more complicateded than it had been before. -- complicated than it had

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been before. White people understood this, particularly in

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institutions and positions of authority. That the old idea that

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there were occasional bad apples, malicious racists, shaven headed

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and attached to extreme organisations, and that is where

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racism resided, that idea, I think, for most of us has gone. Sentencing

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is taking place tomorrow, but the Metropolitan Police say the case is

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far from closed. They are still looking at nine other suspects and

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they hope the passage of time will give new witnesses the courage to

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finally come forward. In a moment we will discuss the legacy of this

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case and what effect, if if any, these verdicts will have. First

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let's hear a reaction from those who knew Stephen Lawrence. Steve

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Smith spent some time in the London district of Eltham where Stephen

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Lawrence was murdered. Stephen Lawrence has been dead now

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for as many years as he lived. So there are young adults in Eltham

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who have grown up with the knowledge of his murder always in

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front of them. I will be celebrating my 18th birthday next

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month, it is a case that has been going on for nearly 18 years.

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your life. Before I was born. I have always known about Stephen

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Lawrence. I think it is a really significant time in history,

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justice has been done, but it is very important. I grew up with the

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whole stigma of it. I was about 11 at the time, but you still remember

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it. I still remember the day, I still remember it being on the news.

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How was it a stigma, exactly? the things that are unsaid, the

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whole racism thing, there was always things said to me from the

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outside from different places. of you live in Eltham that is where

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a lot of racists live? Definitely, that was kind of said. Is that true,

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do you think, or not? Yeah, when I was growing up, absolutely it was

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true, yeah. While some were paying their

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respects, others, a few, took the opportunity to make comments from

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passing vehicles. I think it is absolutely disgusting. Whilst we

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have been standing here there have been people calling out things.

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What have you heard? You know "he deserved it" I heard, someone

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shouted that, as you turned around, I don't think you caught what they

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said, as they drove down. I'm absolutely disgusted. I met him

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when I was seven in Sunday school, went to Butt tins Blue Coats

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together, went to college together. Honestly he was a good guy, you

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know. I know there is a lot of people hear it on the news, some

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people might get sick of it, but the truth is the truth. He was ale

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really cool guy. With -- He was a really cool guy.

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With us are Lord Falconer, Brian Paddick, the London MP, Diane

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Abbott, and we are joined from New York by the journalist Martin

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Bashir, who interviewed the Lawrence suspects in 1999. Why were

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the Metropolitan Police so incompetent and so bigotted in

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those days? It was a cultural thing. When I joined the police in 1976

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racism was overt in the police service. People didn't think there

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was anything wrong in being racist. What happened with the Stephen

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Lawrence murder investigation, it was not taken seriously enough. It

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was only the death of a young black man, therefore, the detectives did

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not treat the case seriously enough, they didn't devote the resources

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that should have been devote to it. As we have just heard from Brian

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Cathcart, they did not use that opportunity to sees clothing, which

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could have -- seize clothing that could have led to the conviction.

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It was it the bigotry that underpinned or explained the

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incompetence? I think what it was was not valuing young black men's

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lives. The complaint from the Metropolitan Police authority is

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now all that has gone, it it is a huge change, and however some

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people may dissent from that, the fact is there are two guys who have

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been convict for this crime now? First of all, let's not forget

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there are a lot of other murders walking free, it wasn't just two

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people who skilled Stephen Lawrence. I would say at the top of the

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Metropolitan Police, the senior policemen and women who deal with

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it are much more sophisticated and clever than the ones you dealt with

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20 years ago. I'm sorry to say when you get further down the ranks, the

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old canteen culture has got gone away. Sadly, the experience of

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young black men on the streets of South-East London, North London,

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Hackney, is, unfortunately, all too similar to the experiences that

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Stephen Lawrence had. Today isn't a warter shed? Do you know, I know

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Doreen Lawrence quite well, I had had close friends who supported her

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from the beginning when it wasn't a fashionable cause. I always

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remember her saying to me, you never expect to bury your child, it

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is a watershed for her and Neville. You feel vindicateded in changing

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the law at least? Without the law being changed, one of the people

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convicted today wouldn't have been convict, but it is a pretty minor

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aspect of the story. I think what happened to Stephen Lawrence

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indicated how racist we were as a society. For reasons that Diane and

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Brian are saying, we still are, in some respects. If there hadn't been

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the campaigning of Mr and Mrs Lawrence, and the people who then

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support them subsequently. They were alone for a pretty long time.

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We would never have asked ourselves the questions as a society which

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led to the Lawrence Report, and the Macpherson Report, and threw a

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light on what Brian has described. I think we might have thought in

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the mid-1990s that we weren't racist, and my goodness what

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happened in the Lawrence investigations of what the police

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didn't do. The period of time it took for us to realise what was

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happening was very striking. That is why I don't think necessarily

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today is the watershed, it is what that light that Mr and Mrs Lawrence

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started shining on our society, and on the police who represent our

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society, that is what the real watershed would be. I thought Mrs

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Lawrence in saying today that nothing can bring back for her

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either her son or those 18 years, and as Diane says, that five or six

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is the number of people who are thought to have commit the murder.

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Cressida Dick said there are nine people still being looked at. This

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is 18 or 19 years later. Martin Bashir, do you think justice

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has been done? I do. The Prime Minister talk about wanting a Big

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Society, but essentially we need a just society. A society where,

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regardless of your background, your waelgt, your colour, your origin,

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justice functions. I think today that has happened. That is a great

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thing for Britain. I think also, not with standing all the

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criticisms of the police service, I think they do deserve credit,

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following Macpherson. Just one point on that, Detective Chief

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Superintendent Clive Driscoll who put the investigation together. It

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was such a formidable investigation that the defence didn't produce a

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single witness tole challenge a single aspect of the key -- to

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challenge a single aspect of the key forensic evidence. That is a

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remarkable achievement, not just because the time has passed, but it

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shows the police service has learned something significant from

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what happened, and the subsequent Macpherson Report. To answer your

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question directly, I do think that justice has been done. You know

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that I met all five of the called suspects over a prolonged period of

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time, and met their parents. It didn't take very long for me to

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realise why 26 separate sources within 24 hours of the tragic

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murder of this young man, went to the police and named at least one

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of those five suspects as being responsible for that death. It is

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staggering when you hear that, and you just go back to what happened

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at the time. The evidence the police were given, it is

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astonishing that it has taken 18 years, isn't it? There is a story

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of two halves here. As far as murder investigation is concerned,

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in terms of the way the police treat hate crime, where people are

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targeted because they are from a minority background. The fact that

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we now have family liaison officers, that murders are reviewed

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independently to make sure the senior investigating officer isn't

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going down the wrong track. All of those changes have been fundamental,

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a direct result of the Lawrence murder. All of those changes

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implement even before Macpherson reported. But I agree with you,

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Diane, that where the police have failed to transform the way they

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operate, is in terms of the encourters they have on the treat,

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with young -- encounters they have on the street with young black men.

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You are five times more likely to be stopped and searched on the

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streets in London if you are black. That cannot be right. Just to say

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one of the allegations always swirling around this case, the

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father of one of the defendant was a big gangland figure, one of the

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allegations always swirling around the case is corruption of the

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police by the father of one of the defendants.S just an allegation.

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Let me say one thing. There is a very tragic murder in the last few

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weeks of a young Indian student in Salford, who was killed in cold

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blood, it is allegedly a hate crime, all I can say is I hope it doesn't

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take 18 years to find his killer. Can I mention one thing. Diane

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Abbott has just made the point about the police response, I think

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that it is very, very busy to draw criticism and to attack the police

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for what has happened in relation to this case. I think, though, you

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have to come back to the facts that the police subsequent to Macpherson

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did not walk away interest this case. They actually embraced the

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criticism of them, and they have delivered a verdict today. That is

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never going to bring back the loss of Stephen Lawrence. Of course all

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of us feel heartbroken for his family and convey our condolences

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to them. Let's not fail to give some credit where it is due here.

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What happened is they started a cold case review in 2007. A man

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called Mr Jarman, a private contractor spotted the force epbsic

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stuff. All credit to the police for -- forensic stuff, all credit to

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the police, but it took eight years after Macpherson Report. I don't

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blame the police for that. After all the forensic, Macpherson has a

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list of criticisms, including watching black binliners leaving

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one of the suspect's house leaving the building. What convicted these

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two people was a tiny speck of forensic evidence, if they had gone

:17:09.:17:15.

into the house within 24 hours, they knew these people's names,

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they of could have got search warrants and got gallons of

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evidence. Does it strike you as change, you were part of the whole

:17:21.:17:26.

change in the law, the abolition of the double jeopardy thing. Does it

:17:26.:17:30.

strike you as odd that the only sentence these men can face is one

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that of would have been applicable at the time the crime was committed,

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given how much more we now understand about racism? The crime

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that, the sentence they will get will be based upon the fact in part

:17:42.:17:46.

that they were juveniles at the time they did this. The principle

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there is if you are a juvenile when you commit the crime you will be

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sentenced on that. Racial agravation is part of the case?

:17:55.:17:59.

is up to the judge to take into account how much the racial factor

:17:59.:18:02.

will aggravate the sentence, that is for him to decide tomorrow.

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to say this, all credit to the police as Martin has been at pains

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to say. As a parent myself, all credit to the Lawrences, who, if

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they hadn't been, there were years where nobody was interested in the

:18:14.:18:18.

case. If they hadn't been so persistent, they wouldn't even have

:18:18.:18:22.

got the partial justice they have got today. And the price they have

:18:22.:18:25.

paid for this. And the way they were treated, the way they were

:18:25.:18:29.

treat. That is why although I don't in had any way criticise the police

:18:30.:18:33.

for their 2007 review and what happened and the conviction that

:18:33.:18:37.

has now been obtained b about you they felt completely isolated, and

:18:37.:18:44.

they felt as victims they were treated appallingly by the police.

:18:44.:18:49.

The point that Diane Abbott make about David Norris is well made.

:18:49.:18:53.

Clifford Norris, his father, is a career criminal, who has spent time

:18:53.:18:58.

in jail. This man grew up amongst endemic criminality. It was

:18:58.:19:04.

remarkable, two weeks ago, when he got into the witness box, he was so

:19:04.:19:08.

confident in his relationship with his father, that spread into

:19:08.:19:11.

various police officers in the past, that he was able to say that he had

:19:11.:19:15.

an alibi in his mother on the night the murder took place. When I

:19:15.:19:19.

interviewed him, he told me he was with his girlfriend Sheryl in her

:19:19.:19:24.

house. I think Diane make as point that many of us have felt, that in

:19:24.:19:27.

the case of Norris specifically, there was some kind of discreet

:19:27.:19:31.

relationship between him, his father and the Metropolitan Police.

:19:31.:19:36.

Nobody has disputeded the existence of that, and its effect on the

:19:36.:19:45.

inquiry. This question of a changeded relationship, didn't what

:19:45.:19:50.

we saw in the riots last summer show there is a long way to go in

:19:50.:19:53.

repairing this relationship? think there is, Diane will know

:19:53.:19:58.

better than anybody as a local MP, that tension between the police and

:19:58.:20:05.

the black community is still strained. In fact, my party leader,

:20:05.:20:11.

Nick Clegg, was delivering the Macpherson, the Scarman lecture in

:20:11.:20:14.

Brixton a few weeks ago, I advised had him to say relations between

:20:14.:20:18.

the police and the black community were better than they were in 1981,

:20:18.:20:22.

he was advised by the organisers not to say that, otherwise he would

:20:22.:20:26.

be seen to be out-of-touch with the local community. That is a very

:20:26.:20:29.

serious indictment in where we are with police and community relations

:20:29.:20:32.

today. The business of choosing the most

:20:32.:20:36.

powerful person on earth gets under way in a couple of hours among the

:20:36.:20:41.

three million or so overwhelmingly white inhabitants of the state of

:20:41.:20:45.

Iowa. A very small proportion of them will gather in libraries and

:20:45.:20:48.

school rooms tonight to decide who should be the Republican candidate

:20:48.:20:51.

to challenge Barack Obama later this year. They won't have anything

:20:51.:20:55.

like the final word. Their claim to fame is to have the first word.

:20:55.:20:59.

That is why the Iowa caucus is interesting. Peter Marshall is in

:20:59.:21:09.
:21:09.:21:17.

Iowa. Here we are in what is part of the

:21:17.:21:22.

democratic process s the Iowa caucuses is always a strange affair,

:21:22.:21:25.

not surprisingly in the last few weeks with the world going to hell

:21:25.:21:29.

in a hand cart. The presidential nominees have been lining up in a

:21:29.:21:34.

game akin to speed dating, like suitors stating their case before

:21:34.:21:38.

eventually collapsing in various shades of embarrassment. It is not

:21:38.:21:45.

as though Iowa is representative of America, it is an atypical state,

:21:45.:21:50.

it is a farming state and farming is doing very well. The rule is if

:21:50.:21:54.

you win Iowa and winning New Hampshire as well, they are half

:21:54.:21:58.

way anointed to being the person chosen to represent the Republicans

:21:58.:22:03.

to face Barack Obama for the White House.

:22:03.:22:06.

They know all about cattle markets in Iowa, the livestock is paradeded

:22:06.:22:11.

about and the calves, who promise the best beef, get picked out. You

:22:11.:22:15.

know where this is going, it happens every four years. Those

:22:15.:22:18.

crazed with sufficient ambition to be their party's candidate for

:22:18.:22:21.

President, roll around this tiny state, for months on end, trying to

:22:21.:22:27.

coax the locals. But they alone can save the nation. Iowa's farmers

:22:27.:22:34.

have seen it all, look on Reily. is a very challenging situation

:22:34.:22:40.

ined today's political arena. like normal elections, everyone is

:22:40.:22:42.

prom mitsing everything and delivering nothing. -- prom mitsing

:22:42.:22:46.

everything and delivering nothing. You -- promising everything and

:22:46.:22:50.

delivering nothing. You don't believe them? No. The country is

:22:50.:22:56.

broken. Meet Mitt Romney, the man long expect to come out on top of

:22:56.:22:59.

the Republican pile. What hard work it is proving to be. Romney is

:22:59.:23:03.

backed by the party's bosses. He's funded to a far higher level than

:23:03.:23:07.

his opponents, and he has never stopped running since losing to

:23:07.:23:11.

John McCain last time around. will clamp down on China that has

:23:11.:23:17.

been cheating, they have been stealing our property, our designs,

:23:17.:23:20.

our patents, our brand, hacking into our computers. That has to

:23:20.:23:25.

stop, you will stop it if I'm President of the United States.

:23:25.:23:29.

Romney used to be Governor of Massachusetts, a state Republicans

:23:30.:23:35.

decry as liberal. He has a track record. To many party activists, on

:23:35.:23:40.

matters like taxation, he has been a bit of a wet. If Mitt Romney were

:23:40.:23:45.

to get the nomination it would be the victory over Everything but

:23:45.:23:48.

Romney mood which has seized the party over recent month. A

:23:48.:23:54.

startling array of challengers have shone briefly and brightly before

:23:54.:23:59.

disappearing, and self-combusting. Commerce, education and what's the

:23:59.:24:02.

third one there. Department of Energy, you know we have all lost

:24:02.:24:06.

our train of thought before, but not many have done it on national

:24:06.:24:09.

TV. Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, couldn't remember his own policies.

:24:09.:24:15.

He's now having to use his campaign ads, attempting to turn his amnesia

:24:15.:24:21.

into a joke. I'm your man, I'm Rick Perry, what's that line again? I'm

:24:21.:24:24.

Rick Perry, and I approve of this message.

:24:24.:24:28.

What's up with these sorry politicians. Lots of bark, but when

:24:28.:24:35.

it is show time, wimpering like little shih tzus, you want big cuts.

:24:35.:24:40.

Perry has been eclipsed by Ron Paul, a 76-year-old libertarian, who

:24:40.:24:46.

wants to slash military spending and terminate much of Government.

:24:46.:24:50.

Swathes love his radicalism, he's riding high in Iowa, but he will

:24:50.:24:56.

never be President. The question beings why more of the party's

:24:56.:25:05.

bigger guns with wider appeal haven't run. Like Chris Christie,

:25:05.:25:10.

and others. As weak as President Obertan looks now, running against

:25:10.:25:15.

an incumbent is never a kickback. Looking at Iowa, a battleground

:25:15.:25:19.

state in the election, Barack Obama has eight campaign offices open in

:25:19.:25:23.

Iowa right now. That is more than any of the Republicans running in

:25:23.:25:29.

the kaukkass have. He's organised - caucuses? He's organised, very

:25:29.:25:33.

organised. He will have far more money. Mitt Romney can be

:25:33.:25:36.

competitive, even Mitt Romney says he won't have as much money as

:25:36.:25:41.

Barack Obama. With fresh unemployment figures out on Friday,

:25:41.:25:45.

Obertan's re-election prospects hinge -- Obama's re-election

:25:45.:25:52.

prospects ride on the economy. Times are tough, and Obama's fan

:25:52.:25:57.

base is shaken, says one Democratic leader, but says in the end they

:25:57.:26:02.

will back him again. The one thing to compare Obama to what you

:26:03.:26:06.

thought he could be, and then compare him against those he's

:26:06.:26:11.

running against, once you see those contrasts among Obama or any of the

:26:11.:26:15.

Republicans, you almost have to come home to Obama if you were a

:26:15.:26:19.

supporter before. There are indications the US economy could be

:26:19.:26:23.

picking up, that doesn't put Barack Obama in the clear, an incumbent

:26:23.:26:27.

has to cope with events. There is no sign that the focus will be on

:26:27.:26:31.

anything really except the economy and foreign policy. There has been

:26:31.:26:36.

a lot of talk recently on the campaign trail about especially

:26:36.:26:39.

Iran, concern about what sort of policy the United States will have

:26:39.:26:43.

towards Iran, and the fact that it is working towards getting nuclear

:26:43.:26:50.

weapons. It is not just Iran, if Obama is to hold on to the

:26:50.:26:53.

presidency, he has to tread carefully through a difficult world

:26:53.:26:56.

over the next 11 months. There is North Korea, Pakistan, Syria and

:26:56.:27:01.

the whole of the Middle East. And there's Vladimir Putin and his

:27:01.:27:06.

handling of Russia's democracy. All that is without mentioning the

:27:07.:27:10.

eurozone, which leads back to America's own, problem number one,

:27:10.:27:18.

the economy. And finally to the latest challenger for the

:27:19.:27:24.

Republican nomination. Attacking the front runner Romney as a fan of

:27:24.:27:29.

Obama-style health care, Rick Santorum suggests the British

:27:29.:27:32.

Empire collapsed because of similar social programmes. REPORTER: Can

:27:32.:27:36.

you tell us which social programmes caused the collapse of the British

:27:36.:27:39.

Empire, give us one answer? I think the British national health care

:27:39.:27:43.

system is a devastating programme to a country, it makes it dependant

:27:43.:27:47.

and that is a devastating thing for society. The height care programme,

:27:47.:27:50.

the National Health Service, it is popular -- the health care

:27:50.:27:53.

programme, the National Health Service, it is popular though?

:27:53.:27:58.

Margaret Thatcher wasn't able to do what Reagan was able to do to this

:27:58.:28:03.

country. On that bombshell, the wannabe President was on his way.

:28:03.:28:07.

His chances of leading the American empire remain remote, but you never

:28:07.:28:13.

know. With us now from New Hampshire is

:28:13.:28:18.

the Republican presidential candidate and our guests,

:28:18.:28:21.

strategists for the Democrats is with us too.

:28:21.:28:26.

What do you think we have learned about Republicanism about how the

:28:26.:28:30.

candidates are standing tonight? Well, you know, it is a very fluid

:28:30.:28:34.

situation. In Iowa and all over the country. Mitt Romney is the front

:28:34.:28:37.

runner, he has been at this for about six years, everyone is

:28:38.:28:41.

looking for an alternative. One of the reasons I stepped into this

:28:41.:28:45.

race. How does it look to you from the opposite side of the fence,

:28:45.:28:48.

given particularly the number of people who have chosen not to throw

:28:48.:28:52.

their hats into the ring? Well, I think it is a really important

:28:52.:28:59.

night for Romney. He spent �4.5 million worth of ads with himself

:28:59.:29:02.

and his affiliated communities here. This is really make-or-break it for

:29:02.:29:06.

him, he has to come in one or two, the Republicans are having a lot of

:29:07.:29:09.

reservation about their front runner. He's pulling out all the

:29:09.:29:13.

stops to have a good turn out tonight and get his percentage and

:29:13.:29:20.

number of votes up from when he ran before. Your candidates seem to

:29:20.:29:30.
:29:30.:29:30.

have to make all sort of commitments on social affairs that

:29:30.:29:34.

unrecoginsable to Middle America? The Republican party of 2012 is a

:29:34.:29:38.

different party than I grew up with. It was a caring party, not hung up

:29:38.:29:43.

on all the social issues, a very devisive party. I think Iowa

:29:43.:29:46.

Republican also send one message, I think the rest of the country will

:29:46.:29:50.

see, starting next week, in New Hampshire, will send a very

:29:50.:29:53.

different message. That moderation and reasonableness is very welcome,

:29:53.:29:56.

because that's where the United States is right now. Most of the

:29:56.:30:00.

voters here are independent, most of the voters are looking for

:30:00.:30:04.

solutions to get Government working, and the two sides to get along.

:30:04.:30:09.

Like Reagan did, my old boss. How does it look to you in

:30:09.:30:14.

comparison with the race for the White House itself? I think Fred

:30:14.:30:20.

has made a very good point. The Republican primary is pulling these

:30:20.:30:23.

candidates very right-wing, and all these Iowa candidates, who have

:30:23.:30:28.

spent millions of dollars in ads, still haven't established an

:30:28.:30:32.

economic plan. It it is "economy stupid" that is the issue out there.

:30:32.:30:35.

Every single one of them is talking about God and their faith and their

:30:35.:30:38.

position on the unborn child, but nothing to make sure that child

:30:38.:30:43.

ever has a job. So I think you will see these candidates move too far

:30:43.:30:47.

right to really come back and win a general election. They are not

:30:47.:30:50.

establishing an economic plan, they are not establishing a viable

:30:50.:30:55.

contrast with Barack Obama. But if it is the "economy stupid"

:30:55.:31:01.

then Obama is in trouble, isn't he? I think it is a choice. It is also

:31:01.:31:05.

a question about where we are headeded. Americans are a lot more

:31:05.:31:10.

savvy than people give them credit for, they know it is a global

:31:11.:31:14.

recession, and a recession, and they know it was primarily caused

:31:14.:31:18.

by Bush and Wall Street, and they want progress for sure. They are

:31:18.:31:21.

not at all-clear that the Republicans are offering a real

:31:21.:31:26.

alternative. If if you look at the specifics their plan, do away with

:31:26.:31:32.

regulation, and don't continue the tax cutser for the middle-class.

:31:32.:31:37.

Don't increase tax increases on the wealthiest 1%. Don't increase jobs

:31:37.:31:41.

in the United States, cut social security. These are not popular

:31:41.:31:45.

policies. These are policies two- thirds to three quarters of

:31:45.:31:48.

Americans reject, including a substantial proportion of

:31:48.:31:52.

Republican women. The Republicans aren't offering an alternative

:31:52.:31:56.

right now. You were shaking your head throughout much of that, why?

:31:56.:32:00.

Nice try, we are in agreement on the rightward shift of the

:32:00.:32:03.

Republicans running. President Obama when he's under the

:32:03.:32:07.

microscope, he promisededed in his campaign to spend the first two

:32:07.:32:11.

years of his presidency on fixing our economy. He spent the first two

:32:11.:32:15.

weeks, he passed our stimulus trillion dollar bill, and then went

:32:15.:32:19.

off to health care and a whole array of other subjects. He hasn't

:32:19.:32:22.

kept his eye on the ball and is in serious trouble. What the

:32:22.:32:26.

Republican party is looking for is a new face. We have gone through

:32:26.:32:29.

many. I'm here in New Hampshire, I'm aed moderate Republican, we

:32:29.:32:36.

started running our commercialsed today, I'm a moderate Republican,

:32:36.:32:42.

we started running our commercials today, I I'm pro-choice, I would

:32:42.:32:45.

love to run against Barack Obama and talk about putting America back

:32:45.:32:50.

to work like Ronald Reagan did in 1981. You have no chance of doing

:32:50.:32:55.

so, have you? You know I'm one debate away. I have been kept out

:32:55.:33:00.

of the debates, Fox Network here, eventhough I qualified for the

:33:00.:33:04.

second debate in Iowa, I qualified, I met their criteria, would not

:33:04.:33:09.

allow me in the debate the. They changed the rules. I filed a

:33:09.:33:15.

complaint against Rupert Murdoch, with alls they -- all the other

:33:16.:33:20.

problems. I'm in the Michigan debate and on the ballot this, I

:33:20.:33:23.

could be the flavour of the week and once America gets a lock at me

:33:23.:33:30.

I'm hopeful I can be the nominee. These are worrying times if you are

:33:30.:33:34.

one of the estimated 42,000 women in Britain of who have had breast

:33:34.:33:38.

implants manufactured by a French company called PIP. The Government

:33:38.:33:42.

saided today here, the Government here, that it doesn't believe it is

:33:42.:33:46.

necessary for all women who have had implants to have them removed.

:33:46.:33:49.

It can't get all the information it needs to make a judgment, because

:33:49.:33:51.

private companies who have carried out the procedure won't tell them.

:33:51.:33:58.

Whatever the risks of implants are, the affair has laid bare how

:33:58.:34:04.

unregulated British cosmetic surgery is.

:34:04.:34:07.

In our contemporary culture it is everywhere, the desire to look

:34:07.:34:11.

better, more beautiful, whatever the cost. But what about when it

:34:11.:34:15.

goes wrong, when the costs are more than just financial. Tonight, tens

:34:15.:34:18.

of thousands of women in Britain still don't know if the breast

:34:18.:34:22.

implants they had are safe. The Government says it doesn't have all

:34:22.:34:26.

the data it wants, and is ordering some private clinics to hand over

:34:27.:34:31.

figures on failure rates by the end of the week. This is aed good-

:34:31.:34:36.

quality breast implant, even if it were to rupture, it shouldn't cause

:34:36.:34:41.

any problems. But those at the centre of the French scandal were

:34:41.:34:44.

made using industrial-grade silicone. And last week the French

:34:44.:34:47.

Government said all the women affected should have them removed

:34:47.:34:52.

and it would cover the costs. So what should happen for the 50,000

:34:52.:35:00.

or so women here who also had those implants? Modern implants are so

:35:00.:35:04.

well manufactured that you could do this with them and they don't

:35:04.:35:10.

rupture. They are very robust. Jacqueline Lewis carries out

:35:10.:35:14.

implant operations for NHS and private patients. If I were to

:35:14.:35:19.

stick a knife into this implant, I'm squeezing on it here, and it is

:35:19.:35:26.

bulging out a bit, then if I cut into it and squeeze it. Nothing

:35:26.:35:31.

really happens. It just goes back in. It is form stable. She says

:35:31.:35:34.

she's confident that women with good-quality implants have nothing

:35:34.:35:39.

to fear. But she is concerned about the PIP implant. If this had

:35:39.:35:43.

happened to my sister, I would want her to have the implants refd moved,

:35:43.:35:48.

because we now know that -- removed, because we now know that the filler

:35:48.:35:53.

of these PIP implants were filled with silicone not of meddle kal

:35:53.:35:59.

grade, not for human use -- medical grade, not for human use. Mark

:35:59.:36:04.

Harvey is representing 250 people PIP implants, in a class action

:36:04.:36:08.

against clinics that fitted them. He's critical of the regulator in

:36:08.:36:11.

this field. The medicines and health care products regulatory

:36:11.:36:17.

agency, the MHRA. I went to the MHRA in February 2009 and said

:36:17.:36:22.

there was problems and was rebuffed by the MHRA, we know there was very

:36:23.:36:25.

little post marketing surveillance that would have detected a problem,

:36:25.:36:29.

much earlier than the recall that took place in 2010. But this isn't

:36:29.:36:34.

the first time there has been a national furore over the safety of

:36:34.:36:40.

breast implants. In 1997, the BBC's Healthcheck programme, produced

:36:40.:36:44.

evidence from women that they felt inadequately informed about

:36:44.:36:48.

possible risks of surgery. The Labour Government ordered a safety

:36:48.:36:52.

review. A year later that independent review group found no

:36:52.:36:56.

conclusive evidence of a link between silicone implants and

:36:56.:37:01.

connective tissue disease, nor a link with an abnormal immune

:37:01.:37:04.

response. But they said women needed more information about risks

:37:04.:37:08.

and there should be compulsory recording on the National Breast

:37:08.:37:12.

Implant Registry about all breast implant operations and any adverse

:37:12.:37:15.

incidents. Labour MP, Ann Clwyd, first raised the issue in

:37:15.:37:20.

parliament in 1994, calling for action on cosmetic surgery. A

:37:20.:37:24.

registry was set up, but discontinued a few years later.

:37:24.:37:29.

the implants register, I think it should be reinstated, there should

:37:29.:37:37.

be a wide inquiry into why it was discontinued. And also, into the

:37:37.:37:41.

continuing practice, particularly if they are using silicone from

:37:41.:37:44.

other countries, I think the women who have had the silicone implants

:37:44.:37:51.

have the right to know, they need to know that their health is not in

:37:51.:37:56.

danger. I think surgeries were sold a duff product and there was a

:37:57.:38:00.

failure in the regulatory process, I would like to see the national

:38:00.:38:06.

implant registry reinstated and funded. The NMRA told us attempts

:38:06.:38:10.

to run the registry failed because patients were reluctant to get

:38:10.:38:12.

involved. But said tonight, together with the Department of

:38:12.:38:16.

Health, it will look at re- establishing the registry. They are

:38:16.:38:22.

insisting their tests found no safety issues relating to the PIP

:38:22.:38:25.

filler material. Today the Government stress that Britain and

:38:25.:38:28.

France agree there is no link to cancer, as some have feared. For

:38:28.:38:32.

the time being, at least, the Government says that on balance,

:38:32.:38:36.

there is no need for women to have PIP implants reof moved. That may

:38:36.:38:43.

not be -- plants removed, that may not be enough to women who have had

:38:43.:38:48.

to cope with the hidden risks of cosmetic surgery. Three days into

:38:48.:38:52.

2012 and the 2011 Arab Spring has yet to turn to summer in many

:38:52.:38:56.

places. Syrian security forces are reckoned to have killed 100 people

:38:56.:38:59.

even since Arab League monitors arrived in the country. In Egypt

:38:59.:39:02.

Mubarak has been toppled, but the army has yet to hand over power,

:39:02.:39:06.

and in Libya, there was more fighting in the centre of the

:39:06.:39:11.

capital, Tripoli today, between factions once united in toppling

:39:11.:39:17.

Colonel Gaddafi. 2011 wasn't a great year for

:39:17.:39:19.

dictators, Colonel Gaddafi was merely the most infamous of the

:39:19.:39:24.

club to find his life tenure of the Presidential Palace, rudely

:39:24.:39:28.

interrupted by the Arab Spring. His squalid end was beamed around the

:39:28.:39:33.

world, but strong men were also ousted from power in Egypt, Yemen

:39:33.:39:38.

and Tunisia. It is now over a year since a young

:39:38.:39:43.

Tunisian man, put all this in train by setting had himself on fire

:39:43.:39:48.

after his vegtable cart was confiscateded by police. The

:39:48.:39:53.

revolution he set off drew the west into a civil war in Libya and has

:39:53.:39:58.

toppled, at the last count, four Governments. In Syria, protestors

:39:58.:40:05.

are still dying in their efforts to get rid of Bashar al-Assad. But the

:40:05.:40:08.

question of what replaces the Governments that have gone hasn't

:40:08.:40:12.

yet been answered. In Egypt elections are on going, and it is

:40:12.:40:18.

far from clear how they will turn out. The army still holds the reins.

:40:18.:40:20.

In Libya, the National Transitional Council is hoping to see elections

:40:20.:40:25.

by next summer, and a new constitution. But the final outcome

:40:25.:40:30.

of all these changes and how they will shape their societies, remains

:40:30.:40:40.
:40:40.:40:44.

opaque. The Libyan novelist Hisham Matar is with me. You have written

:40:44.:40:49.

we have defeated Gaddafi on the battlefield, now we must defeat him

:40:49.:40:53.

in our imaginations, what did you mean by that? The narrative of

:40:53.:40:57.

Gaddafi, this alien figure that descended on an otherwise very

:40:57.:41:02.

organised society and turned it into this hell, and then now, by

:41:02.:41:08.

removing him, we will just revert back to this utopian situation, is

:41:08.:41:12.

not only inaccurate, but it is dangerous. Because it misses the

:41:12.:41:18.

truth, which is that Gaddafi is a very complex phenomenon in Libyan

:41:18.:41:24.

history, that has affected the psychology of our nation. It has

:41:24.:41:31.

affect our imagination. You no just in a very practical sense, how

:41:31.:41:35.

deeply corrupt a lot of Libyan institutions remain to be is a

:41:35.:41:42.

legacy from that time. You returned recently, how has it changed?

:41:42.:41:45.

haven't returned to Libya, I'm going soon. Sorry you are going

:41:45.:41:51.

soon. You are in almost daily contact, how has it changeded?

:41:51.:41:56.

has changeded phenomenally. It is very -- changed phenomenally, it it

:41:56.:42:02.

is very difficult to articulate. I was thinking on the way how do

:42:02.:42:06.

impart this, to your viewers and to you, we have lived for 40 years

:42:06.:42:15.

under this state waiting, a very surreal time of just waiting. It

:42:16.:42:20.

has made us very passive, it has made us very sinle kal about

:42:20.:42:24.

ourselves. But also -- cynical about ourselves, but also about the

:42:24.:42:28.

world. Suddenly now we speak about things in incredibly practical ways.

:42:28.:42:38.

We are very engaged. We are anxious because of the mountain ahead of us,

:42:38.:42:42.

but we are not afraid, we are not looking over our shoulders. We are

:42:42.:42:45.

incredibly excite. If you were to look at particularly the cultural

:42:45.:42:50.

life in Libya, see how many new newspapers and magazines have start,

:42:50.:42:57.

just in this time, the various NGOs that have started. More than 500

:42:57.:43:03.

NGOs in Libya, in a country where having an NGO was a political crime.

:43:03.:43:07.

You know. When you are living in a police state, and everyone is

:43:07.:43:12.

unsure about who is watching them, they behave kifrpbly to how they

:43:12.:43:17.

behave if -- differently to how they behave if they live in a free

:43:17.:43:21.

society? Yes, and a lot of commentators, early on, were saying,

:43:21.:43:25.

and rightly so, one of the big challenges Libya has is exactly

:43:26.:43:29.

this fact. Doesn't have an experience in democracy. But we

:43:29.:43:32.

have forgotten that Libya doesn't have an expowerence of democracy,

:43:32.:43:35.

but we have an incredible experience in the opposite. We know

:43:35.:43:40.

what the opposite looks like. And you can see that. You can see how

:43:40.:43:49.

vigilent people are being. Case in point when the current transitional

:43:49.:43:54.

Government tried to set up a Government without consultation,

:43:54.:44:00.

they have been terrible at being transparent, in fact, and have

:44:00.:44:02.

elect officials without telling people how they have done that.

:44:02.:44:05.

People have taken to the streets and haven't left until the

:44:05.:44:09.

Government disclose that list. about the question of getting rid

:44:09.:44:17.

of Gaddafi himself. The whole world saw pictures of him taken, walking

:44:17.:44:21.

around, standing up, we then saw pictures of him dead, there appears

:44:21.:44:26.

to have been some sort of extra judicial carried out there. What

:44:26.:44:35.

did you feel when you saw all of that? Terrible. It was a moment of

:44:35.:44:40.

national psychosis. Gaddafi has been responsible, in the past, for

:44:40.:44:45.

several of those, and one is familiar with it. But also I think

:44:45.:44:51.

to take it more deeply, one has to understand, or try to imagine what

:44:51.:44:55.

those men have been going through, in the months before. A lot them

:44:55.:44:59.

haven't slept, for example, very well. This is not to excuse it, but

:44:59.:45:02.

to understand it a little bit better. Also I think what is really

:45:02.:45:07.

interesting about that moment is that it says so much about the

:45:07.:45:10.

relationship, the psychological relationship that Libyans have with,

:45:10.:45:15.

or had with Gaddafi, I would claim still have on some level. In a

:45:15.:45:19.

sense they couldn't quite believe that they have captured him. They

:45:19.:45:23.

were testing, let's Troy to do one more thing before the -- let's try

:45:23.:45:27.

to do one more thing before the sky collapses on it, because surely it

:45:27.:45:31.

will. One of the things I thought of was this story that used to be

:45:31.:45:35.

repeated in Libya before, where one of his guards wanted to kill him

:45:35.:45:37.

and recruit another guard, and they were speaking about how they were

:45:37.:45:41.

going to do this, and they went through the details. One of them

:45:41.:45:46.

said, I'm going to shoot him at this moment and you cover my back.

:45:46.:45:51.

The other person said, fine, how do you know once you shoot him that he

:45:51.:45:54.

will actually die. You know. You can see that being played out there.

:45:54.:45:58.

Something else you could see being played out that is very interesting.

:45:58.:46:07.

Is how Gaddafi's dictatorship has succeeded in affect ing Libyan

:46:07.:46:14.

masculinity. There was something in the Mc Car bre and -- macarbre and

:46:14.:46:21.

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