14/09/2012 Newsnight

Will the anti-American protests, which have ignited in countries

across the Muslim world, have lasting impact on US foreign policy.

Today those protests spread to Sudan, including attacks on the

British and German embassies in Khartoum. Tonight the bodies of the

American diplomats killed in protests in Libya arrived back at

Andrews Air force Base. There is grief and anger in the

United States too, and people trying to work out what this

display of visceral hatred means for their policies towards the Arab

world. A grotesque invasion, furious words

from William and Kate, as they sue the French magazine that published

the topless pictures of her, as the couple holidayed in a secluded

chateau in France. TRANSLATION: These are pictures that will go

around the world, that is our headline, I don't know a single

celebrity magazine in the world that wouldn't have run the pictures.

We will discuss what made the French publish and why the British

press withheld. Good evening, the wave of protests

against the amateur US film, insulting the Prophet Mohammed,

spread across much of the Muslim word, with vehement anti-American

and anti-western demonstrations. Some were peaceful, in countries

such as Indonesia, Pakistan and Malaysia, but elsewhere, protestors

went on the attack. One person was killed in Lebanon, when a KFC

restaurant was burned down. Protestors in Tunisia attacked the

American Embassy and set fire to an American school. The big protest

was in the capital of Sudan, Khartoum, when protestors attacked

German and British embassies. In Tahrir Square tonight protests are

still going on. It has just been confirmed one protestor has died in

clashes with police. Finally Egypt's President, Mohammed

Morsi, went on television to condemn the protests after strained

relations with the US. The body of the US Ambassador

killed this week arrived back in the US. We will speak to our

correspondent amid the protestors in Tahrir Square tonight. First

Mark Urban, his report contains flash photography.

It was inevitable that Friday prayers would bring angry scenes

across the Arab world. With the Daneer cartoons row, and the one

earlier this year about the burning of Korans at an American base, the

insult to mobilise millions of believers has been shown once more.

TRANSLATION: Barack Obama, I want to say, that you have not arrested

him yet, how long do Muslims have to wait, he has attacked the heart

of millions of Muslims. Barack Obama, we say arrest him, and hang

him. In Washington, they are mourning

the loss of an ambassador, and his three colleagues. Any sense that

the withdrawal from Iraq, and President Obama's outreach to the

Islamic world, might have soothed tensions between the culture, has

been badly rocked. Inevitably, there are questions too, about the

perceived gains from the Arab Spring. I think there's a normal, I

think, instinctive American reaction, by the way I think it

would be the reaction of any people in similar circumstances, that, you

know, why don't we just let these people go off by themselves and not

get involved. And, again, it's the job of American political

leadership to explain why that's not possible, why we can't simply

leave the Middle East, as much as many Americans would probably like

to do so. The four killed at the consulate in

Benghazi were returned home today. There is anger and grief here too,

and it's not about a symbolic insult. Americans have grown used

to flag burning and the like, but how to exert political leadership

now, the Obama administration has combined promises of action to find

the culprits, with calls for cool heads.

We will bring to justice those who took them from us. We will stand

fast against the violence on our diplomatic missions. We will

continue to do everything in our power to protect Americans serving

overseas, whether that means increasing security at our

diplomatic posts, working with host countries, which have an obligation

to provide security, and making it clear that justice will come to

those who harm Americans. This work, and the men and women who risked

their lives to do it, are at the heart of what makes America great

and good. So we will wipe away our tears, stiffen our spines and face

the future undaunted. And we will do it together. Protecting and

helping one another. In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood today called off

demonstrations, and the President that party propelled into office,

sought to calm the situation. TRANSLATION: In Egypt we have

clearly declared that we reject and condemn the killing of innocent

people, and the attacks on embassies and consulates. Our duty

is to defend diplomats, tourists and all foreigners who are guests

in our country. So political leadership is doing its work in

this difficult situation. But the question remains as to whether the

uglier passions seen, either on the Arab street, or Main Street USA,

can be soothed by statesmanship alone.

The fact that today's violence has targeted British and German as well

as American missions, suggests that the precise causes of this may have

become less important. Than a general venting of anti-western

feeling. When feelings cool things may return to normal, outwardly at

least, but the American hunt for the perpetrators of Benghazi, and

the low likelihood of prosecution for the offending film makers who

seem to have started this, mean there will be plenty of scope for

further tensions in the months ahead.

The BBC's Middle East editor is in Egypt's Tahrir Square tonight.

Jeremy, we have just heard that there is one person confirmed dead,

what is actually happening in the square beyond you, just now?

Tahrir Square at the moment, there is a lot, there is a sense of

expectation, people are hanging around and waiting. But the cars,

as can you see behind me, are moving. The action as such, the

clashes, are taking place 200 yards that way, towards the American

Embassy, where a big wall has been built by the security forces, to

stop people getting towards it. But there, when I went to check it out

about half an hour ago, there were quite a lot of people who were

engaging with the police there. Who were firing teargas at them. It was

quite a heavy atmosphere. But, in terms of the impetuous behind these

protests, the initial impetuous being that amateur US film, do you

get a sense of something bigger, or is there a general feeling that

America is anti-Islamist? I think we have lost you? Thank you very

much indeed. I think we had problems in Tahrir

Square there. But we can go to our guests now, Ashraf El-Baroudi is

President of the Egyptian Appeal Court, and the husband of Egypt's

first female presidential candidate. Robert Danin was a US deputy

Assistant Secretary of State until 2010. Good evening to both of you.

The atmosphere that Jeremy is talking about in Tahrir Square, you

were there on quite a different occasion, when there were the

protests to overthrow Hosni Mubarak. How worrying are the developments

of the last three days to you? I'm not that worried about the

agravation of the situation concerning the US embassy. This is

not the problem here, but there are some other backgrounds here. Let me

summerise them for you, very quickly. First ly, in general, how

does -- firstly, in general, how those young people view the United

States of America in general, they see the United States of America as

the friend of Israel. This long heritage has been affected very

much due to the atrocities that took in Gaza and this and that.

America and among the people doesn't have in the Egyptian street

a very good reputation. This is one thing. The second thing is there is

a party here that is the Egyptian police, because there is a huge

crack between the Egyptian young people and the Egyptian police, as

they have been going through police brutality for a long time. If you

add to that the feeling of despair after the revolution, all this and

that, that makes all the ground ready for a reaction of this sort,

if I may say so. Let me tell you this, the battle going on the

streets right now in Cairo, it's not against the American Embassy as

much as it is against the police once again. They are throwing rocks

over the police and exchanging hits here and there. So the police here

is not the one that is defending the embassy, rather than being a

party in itself, as usual. There has been a very sad heritage about

that. It is complicated. Robert Danin, what Ashraf El-Baroudi seems

to be saying is, yes, of course, the protests over the film are one

thing, but this is actually a much bigger antipathy to America,

looking at it from American point of view, what does that say about

American foreign policy? I think we should be circumspect in

universalising or drawing such broad sweeping generalisation from

what has happened. Our embassy was attacked on 9/11, the wall was

breached, American flag was burned, the security perimeter was

abandoned by the Egyptian security forces there. We have had a

security failure. We have then had a political failure in the

leadership of the Egyptian Government to condemn it. It took

several days for them to try to rein it in. Instead they called for

further protests. So, sorry. So, in that case, do you think that what

you are saying, essentially, is that Mohammed Morsi, is not playing

the part of a partner to Barack Obama? Well, I think this is a

moment of real testing for Mohammed Morsi. He handled it, at least in

the initial period, not as the leader of a country, but as the

former leader of an opposition movement. After two days of real

challenges, in which the United States expressed its displeasure,

both with the film, calling it disgusting and reprehensible, but

clearly expressing its displeasure with the way the Egyptian

authorities have mishandled this situation. I think President Morsi

is now starting to take responsibility for the actions of

the people under his authority. do you think there is more, you

talked about the film being very clearly stated as reprehensible, is

there more than can be done, either that message is not getting out to

many countries in the Muslim world, or is not really about that?

think there is a profound misunderstanding here. There is a

film that was made in the United States, we have freedom of speech

in our country. Our leaders have denounced it, but they have not

taken the film off the air. I think in parts of the world where films

are made. Should it be taken off the air? Sorry? Should it be taken

off the air? Let me explain the phenomenon. You have a situation in

which I think people in a part of the world when something broadcast,

they believe this has the, mpreventure of the Government, they

believe the Government has the power to take something off the air

or is behind putting something on the air. That is not how it works

in the United States. It is a profound misunderstanding. Our

leaders in the United States have denounced the film, but they are in

no position to do anything about the film. If you want tole cha eing

the film or video, you can -- to challenge the film or video, you

can take it to court and see if there is reason for legal recourse.

That is how we moderate discourse in this country, not through

violence. Ashraf El-Baroudi, looking to the future, of what an

American foreign policy might look like, a lot of people in America

will be saying today, especially after what happened in Libya, look,

we don't want America to be the policeman of the world, we don't

want America reaching out to try to create Arab Springs, we want to

retrench, we don't want our people and our money going there? Let me

tell you this, before I answer the question, I need as a start to say

that, of course, it is the responsibility of the Egyptian

authorities to protect the American missions. But if we are talking

about the freedom of speech here, I don't think, at all, that the

freedom of speech includes nailing and smearing values that are

sacrosanct to people. Let me tell you this, despite the freedom of

speech that I am listening to and we are talking about, I know very

well that any action, or any statement can be very well

interpreted as anti-semetic. This has been going and on going for a

long time, we can't simply say this is again the freedom of speech, but

listen to me, where are we going here? We are separating the planet,

and we are spreading hatred, I don't think that the freedom of

speech is a very good explanation to make fun of the beliefs of

others. Co-existence means mutual respect, and this is the core of

civilisation. We are right out of time.

Tonight, two American gossip websites have published versions of

the pictures of the Duchess of Cambridge topless, after the palace

announced it would take legal action in the French courts against

the publishers of the French magazine, Closer, that printed them,

calling them "images of cloudless happiness", the palace said a red

line has been crossed. But the editor has defended her position,

and says she has pictures of the couple that are even more intimate.

Today there were two very different images of the Duchess of Cambridge,

depending where in the world you happened to be. In Malaysia, where

she was in a mosque with her husband, on a tour on behalf of the

Queen, she was demurely shrouded in white. In France, readers of the

magazine, Closer, were studying images of her topless, wearing a

black and white bikini bottoms and rubbing suncream on her husband's

back on a holiday last week. The magazine claim the couple were

visible from a nearby road. It led to public outcry and the furious

That is clearly what Prince William and the palace fear, that Kate is

the new Diana, and will be constantly hounded by the press.

Although Diana was pretty adept at using the media when she wanted.

That is presumably the reason why the couple will sue Closer magazine.

How will the French courts react. The position in France will be the

same as here. It is an invasion of privacy to take photographs of

somebody in a private place, where they are topless or partially nude,

they will win their case in France, as they would win it here.

fines in France for cases like this have been pretty small, haven't

they? The rough average fine, well damages in civil cases in France is

about �24,000. The editor of Closer, she seemed unconcerned, hardly

surprising considering the amount of publicity she has enjoyed. She

claims she withheld some pictures. TRANSLATION: We took the decision

to publish a certain number of the pictures. I won't hide the fact

that there are more intimate pictures that exist, that we

haven't published and will not publish. Other newspapers probably

will choose to publish them. what are all the implication of

this in Britain. We also have privacy laws, of course, but no

statutory press regulation. And where Lord Leveson is finalising

his recommendations on the press. The Sun printed pictures of Prince

Harry maked in a Las Vegas hotel room last month. But British papers

turned down pictures of topless Kate proof, say some, that Levison

should continue to support self- regulation by the press. Ironic

isn't it, a statutory system in France, with, in principle, strict

rules, has failed to protect Kate. Here in Britain, where we have a

voluntary, self-regulatory system, the British press hasn't printed

the photos, self-regulatory has worked here and statutory

regulation worked in France. -- hasn't worked in France. Lord

Leveson take note. Once a photo is out there, it is

quite likely to remain out there. And tonight, the topless Kate

pictures are being shown on at least one American website.

Kate Middleton is, understandably, a global celebrity, the royals may

strike a deal with the British press, but it is impossible to make

everyone obey the rules. If you are in the public high to such a high

degree as Kate and William you have to be extremely careful. There are

two separate questions, one is, should somebody in the public eye

be able to sunbathe in private topless, yes, if you are going to

be the future Queen of England, should you choose to do so?

Probably not. Kate Middleton's picture sells papers, the papers in

England will hope Lord Leveson will be impressed by the restraint shown

today when he comes to make his decision in a few weeks.

Agnes Poirier, the French commentator is in the Paris studio,

with husband is Tom Sykes, who edits Daily Beast, and the former

part of the News of the World, and under investigation by the phone

hacking incident. You said, had you been offered the Harry photographs,

you would have published them, if you were offered these photographs

would you vn tempted? Tempts as a journalist who saw amazing pictures

for less than a second, but like every other editor you would have

thought you can't publish these because there is no justification.

What exactly has happened here, do you think? As the day has gone on

today, a lot more has come out about this. And there are, in fact,

two sets of pictures. There was a set of pictures taken of Kate, and

I assume William, earlier in the week, by a local newspaper. I have

no idea... These were paparazzi- type shots, they were not allowed.

There was no collusion with the Royal Family, they were taken in

the same way? The local paper went along and grabbed some pictures,

without permission. Topless? don't believe so. The point being,

however, we don't know whether the topless pictures were taken before

or after that, but earlier this week the palace were aware, because

Fleet Street was aware, so the palace was bound to be aware, that

pictures had been taken on that holiday. That doesn't, of course,

justify the fact? Tom Sykes, you move in these kinds of circles,

what do you think has been the impetuous for the reaction this

time, this is the most vehement statement that has ever come out of

the palace about the paparazzi. course, just two days ago, William

was asked if he could have one superpower could he have from a

child, he said "invisibility", clearly they don't have that. I

think you can definitely detect the hand of William in the response. I

feel that the response that they issued was inappropriately

emotional, if I may couch it in those terms. Obviously they were

upset. The indication of his mother's name and what happened to

her? That was a very strange decision, to say this incident

recalls the worst excess of the press, and the Princess Diana era,

it is just not accurate. It smacks a bit of a hysterical, not really

very well thought through response. It feels to me as if at that moment

the royals really completely have lost control of the story. What has

happened, I suppose, with talking about Diana, the tabloids would

have come to, I'm sure that connection themselves. But if you

look at the Mail, saying grotesque, you have a picture of Diana in a

hijab and a scarf, and that picture of Kate on the tour. Saying don't

make her a new Diana. The Mirror, royal outrage, "I won't let Kate

suffer like my mother". You are saying it is fuelling the story,

the whole connection, of course, being in France and so forth?

think that fundamentally this is not really a news worthy story. If

you look at the initial reactions today of people, especially on the

social media sites, people were saying, come on, what's the big

deal, a 30-year-old girl takes her top off while she goes sunbathing.

Unfortunate loo, William's response has made this -- unfortunately

William's response has made this news worthy. You are speaking from

Paris, where the story was published. Are you ashamed the

French have published this? Well, I'm amazed more importantly about

the British reaction. Coming from a country where the tabloid culture

and the invasion of privacy happens on Daily basis. It doesn't mean

that the Windsors don't have any rights to sue the Closer magazine.

They do. And I hope they do so and they will win their case easily,

because there are laws in France protecting privacy. Let me remind

you that Closer, the French version of Closer magazine, which appeared

on the French market in 2005, so not so long ago, was at the time an

offshoot from the British Closer. Although today they don't belong.

Silvio Berlusconi now owns it? Absolutely. But the peeping Tom

culture is not very familiar to the French. The French are appalled by

those pictures, I'm not sure they are ashamed, though.

They are not ashamed but appalled. Actually this is an expert we have

given France, this peeping Tom culture, this grabbing pictures of

people like Helen Mirren on the beach in her bikini, a general

invasion of privacy? Nonsense. If you have ever seen French celebrity

magazines, I have been reading them for 20, 30 years, it has lived off

pictures of celebrities on beach. What do you say to that? On beaches

because France is a sunnier country than Britain, that's why they are

on the beaches. You would seem to be suggesting that actually, if

this goes to court they will win, they will win any way, if it is out

of court they will win. What do you say to the defence of Closer's

magazine editor that she's just showing them as cloudless happy

young people, and actually isn't this great, it shows the Royal

Family are a functioning and in a loving relationship. You don't buy

that stuff, do you? Of course not, neither do I buy anything that a

British editor of a British tabloid says. They would say exactly the

same thing, that is to say, being coy, saying well look at them, they

are beautiful and lovely people, it's like the Sun saying we love

Harry, but we think it is in the public interest of showing him in

the nude. No, it is not in the public interest. It is the same

thing in France or in Britain. you personally, but the tabloids

justified it saying he's a member of the Armed Forces and let himself

get into a very dodgy situation, this calls into question the

security detail and so forth? say that and on this programme. It

is the two circumstances are utterly different. What you have

here is, there is no public interest justification for this.

And can I just say, there is one important thing on this, France has

severe privacy law, those pictures have been printed there. In Britain

we don't have the same privacy law, but the press here have decided,

unilaterally, they will not publish. I want to look at the Star front

page, we no from the editor of Closer, who suggests she has other

photos. I think the Star is jumping on, I don't think they were offered

them. I'm slightly wary of this, there is new pictures. We were told

throughout the Vegas thing, there is video and more pictures, if

there is more why not publish them. Wouldn't that make sense of William

going in hard? It could do. The other explanation, perhaps, is that

they seeking to really put the frighteners on the press around the

world. And to try to say, look, if you publish these, we will come

after you, it is very plain to see, that as a strategy it is backfiring.

Can we talk about Levison for the last amount of time we have, is

this one more thing to stop the boiler for hard new privacy laws

under Leveson? Even under that there can be no complaints about

the British press's behaviour on this. They have abided by the PCC

code, the PCC have a whole number of tests you have to pass, and it

didn't work with this, and so the papers haven't published. As we

have talked about, we are in a post-Leveson scenario, two American

gossip website about to publish, although slightly doctored

photographs. Actually, in the end will Leveson be redundant before it

is publish. You work on-line? think that's really the issue, is

that trying to muzzle the British press is completely, totally

pointless. For 99% of people, who are going on-line, and getting

their information on-line. I have seen these pictures on-line tonight.

If everything is about on-line, there is going to be no privacy

laws that will matter a candle in any country. It will be a free for

all on-line, is that what we are heading for? I think it is a matter

of principle, in France, why do French celebrity press target

American or British personalities more than the French one, because

the French ones are very aware of their rights and go straight, fast,

and sue them. They are fined every week, perhaps the fines should be

much higher, actually much higher at the same level they were 20

years agoth they would not publish them. Make it financial. Thank you

very much, that is all from Newsnight tonight, Jeremy is here

on Monday v a great weekend, -- have a great weekend, especially if

you are going on the Great North you are going on the Great North

Run. Good night. The winds are eegs overnight, that

will allow one or -- easing overnight, that will allow one or

two fog patches to form. A chilly start in the morning, but a fine

day for most place. More cloud in the west. Grey on the coast of

North West England, but certainly to the east of the Pennines spells

of sunshine, a sunny day or two across much of the Midlands, East

Anglia and the south-east. With lighter winds than today, it will

feel warmer as temperatures get into the low 20s. We will see some

cloud developing across south-west England, some of the coasts here

may be drab, but generally it is a dry and a bright day, as it is

across much of Wales. Parts of the west coast may be predominantly

overcast, we should, at least, have some sunshine. A bright and breezy

day in Northern Ireland. Breezy, but not the strong winds as during

the Friday. The same goes across much of Scotland, the winds lighter.

Still a lot of cloud in the west, one or two showers. Temperatures on

the Moray firt higher, we may get up to 20 degrees.