Browse content similar to 17/09/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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They will raise standards, they will be fairer and more efficient. | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
That was what the Conservative Government said when it first | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
brought in GCS Es, and that's pretty much what the new | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
Conservative-led Government is arguing for now they are abolishing | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
them. Or put it another way, if a change is such good news for these | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
people, why is the Government waiting five years before the first | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
of the new English Baccalaureate exams happens. The free schools | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
Evangelist, Toby Young, and an education campaigner are here to be | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
disagreeable. The Government ponders fresh budget cuts, wage | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
freezes have been a fact of life since the crash, Newsnight learns | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
that benefits may soon get the same treatment. More British troops are | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
killed by a rogue Afghan police detatchment, while two Americans | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
die at Camp Bastion, where Prince Harry was based. Did he get more | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
protection than other soldiers. Once we knew on Friday night that | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
the perimeter at bastion had been breached, he would have been moved | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
to a secure position, under effective guard. And this. I will | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
have another cup of tea. One false move and the badger gets it. As the | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
Government authorise a cull, is it time we stopped being sentimental | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
about animals. Springwatch's Simon King will defend badger rights, | :01:31. | :01:41. | |
:01:41. | :01:48. | ||
from the Tory MP, Anne McIntosh. It is the best part of 25 years since | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
the Conservatives brought in GCSEs, when they said O-levels were --E | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
levels were clamped out. Now they want to scrap them and bring in | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
something called the English Baccalaureate. Nobody wants | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
standards to fall and children to fail, the only important question | :02:07. | :02:17. | |
:02:17. | :02:19. | ||
is will the change work. You can turn over your paper now. | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
A spring pour-style maths lesson in central London. Michael Gove has | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
often praised the academic rigour of the small Asian state and its | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
tough exams. Students at the King Soloman Academy are learning to | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
master maths the Singapore way. two main differences between the | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
Singapore approach and the conventional approach would be, one, | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
in the style of teaching, which has much more of a concrete and | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
tangible element built into every lesson, and the second would be the | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
structure of the curriculum. Rather than structuring the curriculum | :02:54. | :03:02. | |
based on two -week units and moving from fractions to algegra, and | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
decimals, back to algegra and fractions. We spend six or seven | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
weeks just on one topic, then we move on to the next topic. What | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
that structure allows us to do is achieve depth and mastry rather | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
than breath and light coverage. Which is the way the system | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
currently works in most schools? Exactly, that is the way it | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
currently works in most schools. School starts here at 8.00am, | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
finshes most days at 4.30 and there is a lot of homework. Just five | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
days in, these new pupils say they enjoy it. Even if you are not | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
getting something, he explains it to you loads of times, he will | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
explain it again and it will still be fun. I think maths is really fun. | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
I have learned that you can do 60 questions in less than 50 seconds | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
which is really good and now I will improve my multiplication knowledge. | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
Over half the pupils are on free school meals, three quarters don't | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
speak English at home. The headteacher is ambitious for them, | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
he welcomes Michael Gove's reform. For me and our school, we believe | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
all children are capable of achieving academic success, and | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
reaching a high bar. And through the dedication of the staff here | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
and their families, we will help them to do that. For me, having a | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
high bar is a good thing, because it challenges us and them to make | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
sure the children are well educated and able to succeed after 16. | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
Broadly Michael Gove's plan is that GCSE will be replaced by the | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
English Baccalaureate, the first courses will start in September | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
2015. The exams will be more rigorous, there will be one test, | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
no moduals. And no course work in core subjects. And only one Exam | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
Board will set the exam in each subject. Critical to reform is | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
ending an examination system that nas rored the curriculum, forced | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
idea listic professionals to teach to the test, and allowed head | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
teachers to offer the softest possible options. We believe the | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
race to the bottom is to end, it is time to tackle grade inflation and | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
dumbing down, we believe it is time to raise aspirations and restore | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
rigour to the examinations. We on this side of the House, will not | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
support changes that only work for some children. We need system-wide | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
improvement, and we need change that enjoys genuine support from | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
the world of education and from employers. The truth is, that these | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
plans don't meet those challenges. This announcement comes in the | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
middle of the biggest controversy ever to hit the GCSE exam, over the | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
grading of this year's English language papers, that has seriously | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
undermined the credibility of the test, and the rows is not over -- | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
row is not over yet. The difference between England and Wales is to the | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
best way of handling this, and late tomorrow some Welsh students are | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
likely to get new grades. Michael Gove is genuine about | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
consulting on the best possible exam system to fit with making sure | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
that we have the best available education for children of all | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
abilities, in every school, then he wouldn't be starting from here. He | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
would be starting from a discussion about what is in the curriculum, | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
what do we need to test, and what do we need to test it. | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
Any questions to ask Mr Clegg, he's the Deputy Prime Minister. This is | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
a coalition initiative, it was the Liberal Democrat who reportedly | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
delayed the start of the new exam, and insisted there be one test for | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
all. Some doubt the changes now planned are really significant. | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
Lots of these changes were already in train. For example, the moduals | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
were going for 2014, the Baccalaureate subjects were already | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
in place, as an accountability measure rather than a curriculum | :06:58. | :07:06. | |
for all. The new GCSEs that were just introduced that were already | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
including more challenging questions. A consultation will last | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
three months, then in the new year Exam Boards will start to bid to | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
run the new qualifications. But the first students will only start | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
studying for them in three years time, after the next general | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
election. Here to discuss this are Toby Young, | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
who is the co-founder of the West London Free School, and Jan Hodges, | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
a former teacher and CE O of the education charity, The Edge | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
Foundation. Let's start to find some agreement first. Is there | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
something wrong with the current system? Absolutely, we believe very | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
strongly that the current curriculum is not catering for the | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
wide range of skills and abilities that it nieds to, we would very | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
much like -- needs to, we would like all students studying academic | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
subjects, but also vocational subjects, some overarching | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
Baccalaureate that necks all those achievements. | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
You would agree that the current system isn't working, is this the | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
correct solution to the problem? Yes, first of all, we have to say | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
it is uncontroversial that GCSEs are not working. We have | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
established that? Not for the same reason as January. We have | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
different reasons? One reason is the introduction of one overarching | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
Exam Board, the problem with more than one co-operation board, in | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
order to compete for business, they lower standards and you have a race | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
to the bottom. Another thing the reforms today will do is limit the | :08:44. | :08:52. | |
number of students getting the top grade in 98 -- 1998, 14% got A or | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
A*s, last year almost a quarter of all pupils got As or A*s, we need | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
to limit the top mark to the very best pupils. Also the introduction | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
of the English Baccalaureate will make a difference. The problem with | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
having more than one Baccalaureate is it eliminates the purpose of it. | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
The reason for having it is to make sure that all children, no matter | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
what their background get to study this core body of facts, and leave | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
school with some grasp of the world, and not at a disadvantage when it | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
comes to competing with children who have been to grammar schools or | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
independent schools. Let's take that key point, the key thing about | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
the English Baccalaureate and what he is promosing, what is wrong with | :09:37. | :09:44. | |
his -- proposing, what is wrong with his idea? We don't think | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
anything is wrong, no-one would argue the core subjects are very | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
important. We also believe it is important for people to experience | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
vocational subjects, engineering, those kinds of practical and | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
applied schools. You can't do an English Baccalaureate in those | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
subjects? No it is confined to the axe defplic core. We would like to | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
-- academic core. We would like it widened to take in the range of the | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
subjects. The illusion Baccalaureate won't be mandatory, | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
people won't have to do those subjects. It is not nearly as | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
draconian a reform as some people imagine. But the problem with what | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
you have been saying, is it can be code, it can be a smoke screen, | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
under which the curriculum is dumbed down. To give you an example, | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
in 2004, the last Government made foreign language no longer | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
mandatory, but they did make ICT mandatory, before coming on TV | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
tonight, I memorised a question set in 2010, what can you not do on a | :10:46. | :10:56. | |
:10:56. | :10:59. | ||
computer, (a) send an e-mail (b) book a holiday) and the Examination | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
Board that set the exam was one of the boards that was exposed as | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
spoon feeding the answers to that. The answer was not trying before | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
you buy it, was it? That is it. not sure the relevance it has? | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
is the dumbing down that has taken place as a result of GCSEs. | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
does it possibly make sense not to do anything about this until 2017? | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
I think that was an accommodation the Secretary of State had to reach | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
with Nick Clegg. That man introduced as the Deputy Prime | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
Minister! He was introduced as Deputy Prime Minister. I think if | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
he had his way it would be introduced more quickly. I think we | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
need more debate and discussion, we need to ask harders questions about | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
why we want people to learn certain things, what is the purpose of it. | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
Are we really preparing people for the 21st sent treatment will | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
requiring them to do three-hour written exams at the end, as the | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
only means of assessment, is that really preparing people for the | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
world of work. Employers want people who can problem-solve, | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
creative, innovative, I'm not sure that just sticking to academic | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
subjects alone, and just doing three R compassions will deliver | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
the improfpls we need. The current system isn't producing the people | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
we need? We are not disagree with that. It was interesting to hear | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
about Singapore, they have been rowing back a lot from a lot of | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
rote learning and preparation for exams. They are recognising their | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
young people need a wider range of skilgs and abilities. I'm not sure, | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
would you -- Kills and abilities. I'm not sure, -- Skims and | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
abilities. I'm not sure would you describe Singapore people as people | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
very skilled? I think it is a stereotypical portrait of an | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
eastern male as a nerd and incapable of creativity. I don't | :12:59. | :13:09. | |
:13:09. | :13:11. | ||
think that is true. I think it is a myth to say you can't foster | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
innovation and creativity with rote learning. There was included 100 | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
Latin phrases by rote for Shakespeare, but you can't say he | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
wasn't creative. The skills set as wanted by employers of the 21st | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
century, were the same as in the 20th century, and 19th century, and | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
stretching back to time immemorial. We need a range of knowledge and | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
skills, not downgrading knowledge to upgrade skills. I agree, that is | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
right. We have ended where we started. We know the Government is | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
committed to cutting the benefits bill as part of its efforts to | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
control public spending. What we haven't known until now is how they | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
are going to do it. Tonight Newsnight can reveal that the | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
Government is looking at freezing benefits and cutting the rate in | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
which they increase in value. It is bound to ignite controversy. Our | :14:03. | :14:13. | |
:14:13. | :14:13. | ||
political editor is has the story. # Let me take you back to 2003 | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
Let me take you back to 2003 indeed, back then the average salary might | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
have seen Anne crease in wage. Inflation hovered at a manageable | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
level, bright brass fittings, shiny pans, even a new bathroom suite, | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
were all, sort of, affordable. A decade on, that is unlikely, new | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
soft furnishings are only the half of T it is trickling a debate about | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
fairness in Government. People with salaries don't expect an increase | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
in their earnings any time soon. But people on benefits have seen | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
small increases to low incomes. Been fits are linked to inflation, | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
and inflation has been vigorous, the Chancellor tried to end this | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
link last September, then he was beaten back by the Lib Dems and the | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
Welfare Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith. But now the Conservatives | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
are returning to the issue. The Prime Minister floated an end | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
to this when he gave a speech on welfare in June. There are national | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
questions we have to ask. This year we increased benefits by 5.2%. This | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
was in line with the inflation rate last September. But it was almost | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
twice as much as the average wage increase. Given that so many | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
working people are struggling to make ends meet, we have to ask | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
whether this is the right approach. It might be better to link benefits | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
to prices, unless wages have slowed, in which case they should be linked | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
to wages instead. Newsnight understands that the Government is | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
looking at a new figure, they have estimated that had benefits | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
increased in line with earnings over the last four years since 200, | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
they would have paid out �14 -- 2008, they would have paid out �14 | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
billion less from the Exchequer. The public research think-tank has | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
come up with its own simply imposing numbers, they estimate | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
over the last year, had working age benefits been uprated in line with | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
earnings, rather than the 5.2% inflation that they did go up by, | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
then �5 billion would have been saved. Looking at one benefit in | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
particular, the think-tank says it would mean that jobseeker's | :16:21. | :16:29. | |
allowance would now be �66.81, rather than �71 a week. | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
That 5.2% figure last September was probably an outliar, and people | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
don't expect it to be repeated any time soon. But wages are bumbling | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
along, and inflation is doing unpredictable things, it could | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
outpace wage increases for some time. To move things back to those | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
in work, those at the top are considering a par dime shift. As | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
earnings feel like they are being minaturised, Newsnight understands | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
that those at the top of Government are trying to bring what they think | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
is some parity to the incredibly shrinking family budgets. A freeze | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
to benefits being contemplated for two years, before a new link will | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
be imposed to earnings, but what to freeze. | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
The most dramatic option includes freezing 90% of benefits, it could | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
bring in �7 billion. But it will require a freezing of benefits for | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
those on disabilities, which my sources suggest they would not do, | :17:24. | :17:34. | |
:17:34. | :17:34. | ||
without significant amealation. The IPPR calculate that if all | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
working age benefits were frozen from 2014-2015, �4 billion could be | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
saved in the further two years, freezing benefits of those of | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
working age. To get to the �7 billion figure, the Government will | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
have to go to places they may not want to, freezing child benefits | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
and Child Tax Credits. The think- tank believes this would bust the | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
child poverty target, and if the next election is to be fought on | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
living standards, the Government would have found itself in a very | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
tight spot. The Institute for Fiscal Studies today urged caution, | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
believing any shift in uprating would have limited effects, | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
inflation this year has fallen more rapidly than expected, the effects | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
on forecast benefit spending will be small, their researchers told | :18:19. | :18:29. | |
:18:29. | :18:30. | ||
Newsnight. The MP of Spellthorpe, disagrees, and thinks his | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
institutes believe they should continue to, and the Government | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
could have �6 billion out of a benefit of �80 billion f they froze | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
benefit for three years assuming an inflation rate of 2.5%. It is | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
important to look at where we have come from. Wages haven't increased, | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
people in low-paid jobs are not getting wage increases. It is only | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
right, across the board, to put a cash freeze, that means if you earn | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
�100, then you earn the nominal amount in year two and year three. | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
This can save the Exchequer a lot of money. This is not some joud | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
landish idea, the Swedes did -- outlandish idea, the Swedes did it | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
to sort out their problem, Israel did it recently in the last five or | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
six years, and tackled their deficit and public spending problem. | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
For some there is the parity argument, but there is also the | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
bottom line. The Chancellor needs to find an extra �10 billion from | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
the welfare budget, in order to keep cuts to other Government | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
departments, in future, the same as they are right now. | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
If you look back at what has happened to benefits in recent | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
history, benefits for children have gone up by more than prices, but | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
the benefits for the parents haven't. We have done some research | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
to look at forecasts of what will happen to poverty, based on current | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
changes to the benefit system. We are seeing a rise in poverty up to | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
2020. If benefits are cut further, we will see an even bigger rise. | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
Benefits are also paid to those in work, as well as those out. Ending | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
the link wouldn't clearly incentivise work, but the | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
Government thinks the status quo is actually retro. Paying for tea and | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
toast should feel the same for everyone. | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
Allegra Stratton is with us. How serious is the Government about | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
going through with this? If they are going to meet their �10 billion | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
cuts to the welfare budget, which the Chancellor has said they want | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
to, and the Prime Minister has repeatedly said he wants to, they | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
are serious. �10 billion, a wealth tax the Liberal Democrats have | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
proposed, brings in �2 billion, something like this, it is �4-�7 | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
billion, �7 billion seems too harsh, but �4 billion is doable. You have | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
other policies, something like to child benefit, you are talking | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
about having to go to something like this if you are ever to get up | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
to the scale of �10 billion, otherwise you are around the �2, | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
this is what they have said they will do. You think they will go | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
with it? This is being considered at the to much Government. | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
With us now is Anne Begg, the MP for Aberdeen South, and also the | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
chair of the Work and Pensions Select Committee, also with us is | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
Jacob Rees-Mogg, the MP for north- east Somerset. You're not going to | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
sit there and say we are all in this together? I will sit here and | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
say it is right that benefits should not rise faster than | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
earnings. It is unfair on people who are working that their earnings | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
are rising more slowly than those people on out of work benefits. | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
can you dispute the fairness of what he's just said? Because most | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
years earnings do increase far more than benefits do, even when they | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
are linked to RPI as they were originally, now it is CPI. I think | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
it would be unfair to take one year where earnings were around, prices | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
are around 5.2%, and earnings about 2%, which is what happened last | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
year. And think that some how that will be the case from now on. The | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
people we are talking about are people who don't get a great deal | :22:04. | :22:11. | |
of money in the first place. Explain? Last year and this year | :22:11. | :22:21. | |
:22:21. | :22:22. | ||
earnings have risen slowly more slowly than prices, so those on | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
benefits are getting more increase. You wouldn't dispute that? | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
absolutely want work to pay, that is right. We are talking about such | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
small, marginal amounts in terms it of the individual, it is �5 a week, | :22:35. | :22:42. | |
it is a lot if you are only on �68 as opposed to �72, or �73 it would | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
have to be. The difference for those who are on the lower end of | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
the scale is that it is the proportion of their income that is | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
affected, as opposed to somebody who is in work. You also have to | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
remember, of course, that more than 50% of benefits go to people who | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
are in work, they are at the low pay end. Give them a double whammy | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
of lower wages, and lower benefits, and they are going to be hurt quite | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
badly as well. There is another element to this that strikes one as | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
a reasonably dispassionate observer, that people on benefits at that | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
level are being penaliseded in a way that you promised pensioners | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
will never be penalised? That is a very good point. But promises were | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
made for this parliament, to pensioners, there is a triple lock | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
for them. I think that politicians ought to stuck to their promises, | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
even if they turn out to be very difficult to keep. But the | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
treatment you accept is completely different? Pensioners have been | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
given guarantees, not just by the Conservatives, but by all parties, | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
to protect their pensions, and I think we should not change that, | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
without having put it forward in a manifesto, first. I could say to | :23:52. | :23:59. | |
you, pensioners, many of them, vote for you and your party, people on | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
benefits very often don't? Don't vote, let alone Conservative. | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
you can treat them as you like? don't think that's right. I don't | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
think the Government is that callous about the way it treats | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
people. I think it made certain promises, and it is right to keep | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
those. Do I think over the next ten years we have to look at | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
pensioners' benefits, I think we will have to. Do you agree with | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
that? I don't think we should be taking money from those who are the | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
poorest in society. Do you think pensioners are getting an easy deal, | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
when these sort of arrangements are looked at? They are certainly being | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
protected at the moment. Should they be? 50% of the welfare budget | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
is on the old age pension, 70% of welfare spending goes on those who | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
are offer retirement age. So the bulk of these cuts, all of these | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
cuts are falling on a working age population. It is the poorest in | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
society that are losing out. But is it fair? Is it fair that pensioners | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
should be privileged in the way they are? I wouldn't argue we | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
should be attacking pensioners, I don't think we should attack anyone | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
on the lower wage. You are going to wish it away this deficit? | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
Absolutely not. Why was it too difficult to keep a 50p rate of | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
income tax. That was too difficult or complicated, or cost far too | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
much money, let's go and hit the pensioners and hit the poorest. | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
50p tax rate doesn't raise any money, that is its problem. The | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
economy remains in a mess, the Government is spending more money | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
than it raises in taxes, or is likely to do in the foreseeable | :25:33. | :25:42. | |
future, and it is business -- the business is spending on welfare, | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
the biggest part of the budget. If we do nothing about welfare the | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
country is insolvent, we have to make tough decisions. You already | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
said most of the Welfare Bill goes to pensioners? That is why the | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
pension age has to rise higher than it is, and people have to work | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
longer. That is already going on. We have to be clear about this in | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
the election manifesto, whether we can maintain things like free bus | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
passes and the Winter Fuel Allowance. We mustn't break | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
promises given in the past, if we do the whole trust in politics | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
remains decayed. The one thing poorer people do is spend their | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
money. If we are looking at a means of reinflating their the economy, | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
they are the ones who should be -- reinflating the economy, they are | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
the ones who should be getting money, rather than those who save | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
their money. If we start to really starve the poorest of the money, | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
their communities get affect, they don't have the spending power in | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
the shops, and there can be a run- on effect. The deprived community | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
becomes more deprived as local businesses and shops close down | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
because the money isn't there. That, if Government was being sensible, | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
that's where they should be looking to inflate the economy. Thank you | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
very much. It has come to something when the | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
Defence Secretary has to go to parliament to reassure our elected | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
representatives that the safety of British troops in Afghanistan is a | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
top priority. He had to do it because this weekend two more | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
British soldiers were killed by supposed allies in the Afghan army. | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
Separately two Americans lost their lives, in the theoretically safe | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
compound of Camp Bastion, in yet another called green-on-blue attack. | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
I will be asking the Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, what we | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
are still doing there, shortly. And if Prince Harry deserves special | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
protection. First, though, here is this report. | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
NATO insists after 1 years, the insurgency in Afghanistan is now on | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
the back foot, that didn't feel like that in Kabul today. | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
Protesters around the world have reacted against the anti-Islamic | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
film, produced in the USA, that ridicules the Prophet Mohammed. In | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
the Afghan capital, protestors burned cars and shouted "death to | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
America". Not what NATO needed after the humiliating attack on | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
Friday night at Camp Bastion. One of the most heavily-guarded bases | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
in the country. Taliban commanders, armed with guns and rockets, and | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
wearing suicide vests and US uniforms, killed two US Marine, | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
destroyed six Harrier jets, damaged another two, and destroyed | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
buildings. The cost was estimated at tens of millions of dollars. The | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
base is where Prince Harry is currently deployed, the Taliban | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
said they would have killed him if they found him. The attack was a | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
humiliation for NATO, and follow as whole series of called green-on- | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
blue incidents, involving rogue Afghan soldiers or police, turning | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
their guns on allied troops. The number of such attacks has been | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
rising. In the latest incident at the weekend, two British soldiers | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
were shot by a man wearing an Afghan Police uniform, four | :28:52. | :28:59. | |
Americans were killed in a similar attack. In 2007, there were only | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
two NATO troops killed in such incidents, but by last year the | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
number had risen to 35. So far this year there have been 51 green-on- | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
blue killings. Today the Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, was | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
called to the House to discuss the price in green-on-blue deaths. He | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
was challenged by Labour MP Paul Flynn. Our soldiers are being | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
killed by their allies, it is not warfare, it is murder. We should | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
now take the decision that has been taken by our colleagues in the | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
Canadian parliament, in the Dutch parliament, to bring their troops | :29:37. | :29:44. | |
home. They have been home for two years. The French are coming home | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
early and so are the New Zealanders. There is no reason why we shouldn't | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
do what the country wants, and bring our brave soldiers home by | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
Christmas. All this, of course, at a time when NATO is preparing to | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
leave, handing over maintenance of law and order to Afghan security | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
and police forces. Last week in Afghanistan, the Defence Secretary | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
suggested there could be more flexibility and more British troops | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
than originally suggested might withdraw next year, ahead of the | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
2014 date set by NATO for the ending of combat operations. | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
Military commander on the ground are telling me, in sharp contra | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
distinction to what I was hearing from them only four or five months | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
ago, that they now believe their force requirements during 2013 will | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
allow scope for drawdown from current numbers, during 2013, on | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
our way to our objective of complete drawdown by the end of | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
2014. But today there was one hopeful sign in Kabul, with the | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
men's team at the world 2012 cricket championship in shrilaankka, | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
the Afghan women's team, who get no official report d Sri Lanka, the | :30:56. | :31:03. | |
Afghan women's team, who get no official support were out | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
practising. The Taliban would not allow women to play sport at all. | :31:07. | :31:13. | |
This is the kind of society NATO wants. It thrives, today, despite | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
bombers. Earlier I spoke to Philip Hammond, | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
the Defence Secretary. For what did British soldiers give their lives? | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
Like many other soldiers who have given their lives, they are there | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
to defend Britain's national security, to make sure that | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
Afghanistan can't be a base for international terrorists to attack | :31:33. | :31:40. | |
us and our allies, as they did with impunitive years and few years ago. | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
We have been told that since the start of the deployment, now we | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
have a situation where members of a supposedly allied army are | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
attacking us? We have set out a strategy to withdraw from our | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
combat role in Afghanistan by the end of 2014. In order to protect | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
our legacy, and to protect our national security into the future, | :32:01. | :32:08. | |
we have to make that transition by training and equipping the Afghans | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
to defend their own national security, and protect their own | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
territory, to make sure it can't be used by international terrorists. | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
That necessarily means our forces exposing themselves to a certain | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
amount of risk as they work closely alongside the Afghans. What you are | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
saying, effectively, if I read you correctly, is this, you are | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
committed to withdraw by the end of 2014, that in order for that to | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
happen the Afghan army has to be built up, and clearly, in the | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
process of building up the Afghan Army, vetting procedures have been | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
completely hopeless? There is a number of measures, both ISAF and | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
the Afghan Government are now taking in response to this spate of | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
green-on-blue attacks. You are right, that during the phase of | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
rapid build-up of the Afghan security forces, not enough | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
attention was paid to close vetting. The Afghans are now, woulding right | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
the way back through their force, re-- working right the way back | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
through their force revetting people. They have assigned twice | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
the number of direct rate of security people to the Afghan -- | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
direct yaitd of security people to the Afghan Army, they are revetting | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
people when they have come back from leave, or if they have been A | :33:24. | :33:32. | |
wol. On our side we have put -- awol, on our side we have put in | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
place measures to make sure the troops are specially protected | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
where there is Afghan contact. And other procedures to make sure we | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
minimise the risk. We cannot eliminate the risk that our troops | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
face. This is a high-risk procedure, but it is essential, if we are to | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
deliver future security in Afghanistan, while being able to | :33:54. | :34:02. | |
withdraw ourselves from combat. these young men have died in order | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
that we can see the inadequacies of a poll say that we insisted upon -- | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
of a policy that we insisted on? are building up Afghan security | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
forces, so we can first withdraw to a supporting role, a then come home. | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
There is nothing in conditions on the ground which would affect the | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
timetable of our withdrawal, is that correct? I don't think that is | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
true at all. It is possible we could be there after the end of | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
2014, if things get bad? We have made a commitment to be out of the | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
combat role by the end of 2014. Clearly conditions on the ground | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
have nothing whatever to do with it, they might speed up the withdrawal, | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
but that is it? We have got just over a two-year programme to | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
complete the transition to Afghan forces. There is a clear plan of | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
districts see qeingsally transferring to Afghan lead | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
responsibility, and for the allied forces to move into what they call | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
a Security Force Assistance posture. So we have a very clear plan. We | :35:04. | :35:13. | |
are executing it, and we are not going to be derailed from it, | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
however devastating the psychological impact of it is. We | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
will put in place the measure necessary to combat them, and we | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
will continue with our plan. That is what the Taliban doesn't want us | :35:23. | :35:30. | |
to do. It is because the Taliban recognises the impact that it will | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
have on their aspirations, us leaving behind a properly-trained | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
and equipped Afghan national security force, that they are so | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
desperate to disrupt this process. One further point, Prince Harry is | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
serving there at present, is he exposed to the same dangers as | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
every other officer there? He's an Apache pilot, he faces the same | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
risks that Apache pilots face as they go about their daily business. | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
He's no more or less exposed to risk than any other Apache pilot. | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
Any stories about him being bundled to safety the moment an attack | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
happens, and being treated differently to other soldiers there, | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
are not true? No, that's a different question. Clearly there | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
are fullback plans, I can't go into the detail of them. But once we | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
knew on Friday night that the perimeter at bastion had been | :36:27. | :36:35. | |
breached, he would have been moved -- Bastion had been breached, he | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
would have been moved to a place of guard. That was so he was receiving | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
special treatment? You asked me if he was at any greater risk. I told | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
you in combat he's at the same risk as any other Apache pilot. Clearly | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
if we have a VIP in theatre, and frank low, if I was there, or you | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
were in Camp Bastion, and there was a breach of the perimeter security, | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
anybody who might, by nature of who they are, be a target, would be put | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
into a secure location. So he's not serving there as an | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
order wry officer, is he? He is serving there -- An ordinary | :37:14. | :37:21. | |
officer, is he? He is serving as an ordinary officer, but there are | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
measures in place that realise he could be a target himself as a | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
result of who he is. If you are thinking up a storyline | :37:29. | :37:36. | |
for the episode of The Thick Of It, you would be hard-pushed to better | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
than the Government minister who allows the destruction of badgers. | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
The English people are notoriously sentimental about animal, they even | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
have a memorial to commemorate their effort for the war effort. | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
Now it is one move and he gets it. There may be no other way to save | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
cattle from bovine tuberculosis, now a license has been granted to | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
allow an experimental cull. Just supposing this sweetly odd old | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
fellow, sniffling about in the wind and the Willows, was really a | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
disease in disguise. We need all the help we can get. The science is | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
complicated, but farmer who lose their cattle and livelihoods to | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
bovine TB, don't share the sentimentalalty. Last year about | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
26,000 cows had to be slaughtered in the name of TB control in | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
England. In the badger cull, up to 6,000 badgers will be shot, in the | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
first two pilot areas named today. Over the next 12 years, as many as | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
130,000 could be sacrificed to save cattle. The Government predicts a | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
16% drop in bovine TB in the culled areas. You know, the scientists | :38:53. | :39:02. | |
know, and we all know it's simply not going to work. | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
Shooting furry animal doesn't make for popular politic. One opinion | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
poll suggests four out of five of us oppose the idea. In the sign of | :39:10. | :39:18. | |
the nervousness about the plan, Waitrose, Co-Op, and M & S, all | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
rushed tonight to say they won't sell milk from farms where badgers | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
are culled. Sainsbury's, on the other hand, has no problem with the | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
scheme. Joining us tonight is wildlife | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
cameraman, Simon King, and Anne McIntosh, who chairs Environment, | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
Food and Rural Affairs Committee. You're here in a private capacity, | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
I take it. Can you think of a policy more likely to lose you | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
support than this? Actually we are united in wanting a healthy badger | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
population. But you are doing it to help the badgers? You need, badgers | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
are on the increase, the incidents of TB in badgers, and through them | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
the incidents of bovine TB has increased. You are shooting badgers | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
because it is good for badgers? are looking to have a vaccine, both | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
for badgers and for cattle, but we are not there yet. This is a pilot. | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
In the meantime you are going to shoot them? This is a pilot cull. | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
And I think we owe it to the farmers and the rural economy of | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
the areas most badly affected, and to the badgers themselves, to | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
eliminate bovine TB, which we have singularly failed to do, or even | :40:32. | :40:39. | |
control it. There you see, it is good for them? May I start by | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
saying, I, the wildlife Trusts whole heartedly sympathise with the | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
farming community, we work alongside them every day, and we | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
have a strong and good relationship with farmer, and empathise with | :40:53. | :41:00. | |
those who have lost a herd with the outbreak, the outcomes are | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
devastating. Science has proved time and time again that killing | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
badge does not have a lasting -- badgers does not have a large and | :41:11. | :41:18. | |
long lasting effect on keeping out bovine TB. That is the problem here. | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
If you kill the badgers the incidents drop by 16%? That leaves | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
84%. You said it has no impact, it clearly does? Little lasting impact. | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
It has to be 570% efficacy, you have to kill 07% or more of the | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
badgers for efficacy. We don't know how much badgers we have. They are | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
hardly endangered? They are not, they are protected. We should be | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
proud of our natural legacy and heritage. We have what represents | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
25% of the badgers in Europe. you thought there might be some | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
connection between the way they are protected and bovine TB spreading | :41:58. | :42:06. | |
the way it is -- it is? The way to deal with it is not to cull badgers. | :42:06. | :42:12. | |
It is by vaccination with the badgers and the cattle. Also by | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
biohusbanding. In Wales they are vaccinating rather than shooting | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
badger, why are they able to do it and England isn't? We need to | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
proceed with the cull. We need to look at the fact that positive | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
reactors in cattle who are vaccinated will increase. You then | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
have the problem, and this is a personal view, you then have a | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
problem that if that is the case, what happens to the meat and the | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
milk from cattle who show signs of TB, after being vaccinated. Will | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
they be allowed, will the milk and products be allowed into the food | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
chain, will the meat be exported. You need to think this out before | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
you start a policy? We are united around the fact that it has to be | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
science-led. You just cannot continue with 26,000 animals being | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
slaughtered, that is an animal welfare cry us is, in any shape or | :43:08. | :43:15. | |
form, 26,000 cattle slaughtered in one year. That is a welfare scandal. | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
26,000 cattle is 100,000 badgers? think you have to grasp the fact, I | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
don't think Simon would disagree with this, any diseased badger will | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
die a grizley death, because it will be exposed and left to die by | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
its own set. The science doesn't support that. It is fact of life. | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
And I think. No it is not. I agree that you do have to find out | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
exactly, we are one of the few European countries to have | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
protected badgers, we need to know how many badgers there are in the | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
population. I think a limited, pilot scheme, will show whether the | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
results do follow the science, and whether it will produce a reduction | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
in the spread of bovine TB. never go to bed at night thinking, | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
you won't go to bed tonight thinking, oh myed God, we are going | :44:05. | :44:13. | |
to have to make another U-turn? This is a pilot cull. If we can | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
actually encourage more research, and encourage, and an earlier | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
development of vaccine, and what the implications are, for the | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
cattle that are vaccinated, you will find all sides would poll that. | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
The vaccine is there now, it is rolled out by the Wildlife Trust in | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
the counties, it is proving an efficacy of nearly 74% efficacy. | :44:37. | :44:43. | |
Which one is that. It is the BCG vaccine for badgers. We want | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
Government very much to put effort, and resources behind a vaccine that | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
is oral. The political bite in this, if the political U-turn comes in, | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
who knows, it will be because badgers are seen to be fluffy, | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
kaudley creature, it is not to d with the science, it is to do with | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
what they look like. That is why I'm not talking about that. You are | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
not a vegetarian, and you wouldn't have a problem killing rats? | :45:10. | :45:17. | |
million rats in Britain, who might carry TB, because they are mammals. | :45:17. | :45:26. | |
Are you happy to see rats rubbed out? I would like BTB rubbed out | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
and efficiently. You would vaccinate rats? No cattle that are | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
suffering. A vaccinated animal doesn't have the disease. I think | :45:36. | :45:43. | |
you accept if you vaccinate a cow, it will show a reactor to the | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
vaccine. I think there needs to be more testing generally, Jeremy, I | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
think we would all support the fact there should be more testing. | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
are talking about a different test? There are two different types of | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
tests, at the last parliament the committee looked at this, we | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
haven't had a chance to look at this in this parliament. If you can | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
increase both the research, and the testing of TB, in badger, and in | :46:09. | :46:17. | |
cattle. Undoubtedly, the Wildlife Trust, I support a robust testing | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
programme, increased security measures. I would agree. | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
Vaccination with badgers and cattle and anE U policy that work. That's | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
it for now, more in a while, interesting goings on at the | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
laboratories in Chicago, they are researching ways of improving the | :46:34. | :46:39. |