18/09/2012 Newsnight


18/09/2012

The latest on the killings in Manchester and our mission in Afghanistan, plus Romney's new gaffe and shocking violence in Kenya. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Fiona Bone was 32 years old with five years service. The second

:00:14.:00:17.

officer to die was Nicola Hughes, 26 years old, with three years

:00:17.:00:21.

service. There has never been a killing like

:00:21.:00:26.

it in this country. As the body of the second young policewoman was

:00:26.:00:31.

removed this evening, what lay behind today's appalling events. We

:00:31.:00:34.

have been hearing the details of what has been a brutal and shocking

:00:34.:00:40.

end to a violent summer of guns and grenades across Greater Manchester.

:00:40.:00:46.

NATO steps back from two too close engagment with the Afghan Army. The

:00:46.:00:49.

decision seems to have caused confusion in London and Washington.

:00:49.:00:52.

What about the effects on the ground in Afghanistan. Mitt Romney

:00:53.:01:02.
:01:03.:01:10.

tries to take his foot out of his Can it be true, one half of America

:01:10.:01:20.
:01:20.:01:21.

pays no tax and the other half they live off. In Kenya, elections are

:01:21.:01:25.

six months away. TRANSLATION: torched the houses, the others

:01:25.:01:32.

carried off the injured, and the others whose job was just to kill.

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Shocking, senseless, inxes henceable, the adjectives catch the

:01:40.:01:43.

bafflement of police officers and politicians. The shooting dead of

:01:43.:01:50.

two police officers in Manchester where shock is the dominant feeling.

:01:50.:01:54.

The questions remain, how can Britain remain one of the few

:01:54.:01:58.

countries in the world where police are unarmed. And how have guns

:01:58.:02:03.

become so readily available to the wrong people. We're near the seen

:02:03.:02:08.

in Hattersley. -- the scene in Hattersley. Guns,

:02:08.:02:13.

grenades and gangland feuds and a criminal conspiracy to intimidate

:02:13.:02:19.

witness and protect the guilty. All that was laid out by the Chief

:02:19.:02:24.

Constable of Greater Manchester, Peter Fahy, in Anne attempt to put

:02:24.:02:30.

-- in an attempt to put into context what has been happening in

:02:30.:02:35.

Manchester over the last few week. But nothing to today's

:02:35.:02:39.

extraordinary circumstances where two young policewomen were killed.

:02:39.:02:42.

One witness who arrived at the scene after hearing gunshots said

:02:42.:02:47.

it all seemed unreal, then he saw the abandoned police car with the

:02:47.:02:53.

blue light still flashing. Sir Peter Fahy likes to quote Sir

:02:53.:02:57.

Robert Peel, saying "the police are the public and the public the

:02:57.:03:01.

police", if that is the case, then tonight both are striken. It had

:03:01.:03:06.

been a normal quiet morning on this Manchester suburb, the violence was

:03:06.:03:09.

so sudden, unexpected and quite savage. By mid-afternoon the Chief

:03:09.:03:13.

Constable was in mourning, and trying to make sense of it all.

:03:13.:03:17.

Clearly this is one of the darkest days in the history of Greater

:03:17.:03:25.

Manchester Police, if not the police service overall. Because we

:03:25.:03:28.

have lost two deeply-loved and valued colleagues, because they are

:03:28.:03:34.

part of our team, policing is very much a family. Fiona Bone was 32,

:03:34.:03:39.

calm and gentle, she was called, she had been planning her wedding.

:03:39.:03:44.

Nicola Hughes was 23, bubbly and always smiling. Both were described

:03:44.:03:48.

as great bobbies, good people. want to look beyond the uniform

:03:48.:03:53.

here, what we have here are two young girls, who went out this

:03:53.:03:58.

morning, and they have got an absolute right to come home tonight

:03:58.:04:04.

to their loved ones. This is cold blooded murder, it is the slaughter

:04:04.:04:08.

of the innocent. What happened of the two policewomen, unarmed, were

:04:08.:04:12.

answering what was supposed to be a routine call to a supposed burglary.

:04:12.:04:18.

Down the road there in Abbey Gardens. Now, one theory is they

:04:18.:04:23.

were deliberately lured into an ambush. 13 gunshots were fired, and

:04:23.:04:31.

then, incredibly, a grenade of thrown. A local window cleaner,

:04:31.:04:35.

Warren Shepherd, heard the whole thing. I was out the front and I

:04:35.:04:39.

just heard gunshots, it sounded like at least 10, one after each

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other, and then a small delay, five seconds and a big bang. So, you

:04:44.:04:48.

were about 20 yards away, you went around to the front of the house

:04:48.:04:54.

then? I was cleaning the front of a house, and I went around the back

:04:54.:04:58.

to see what it were. That is when I saw the police car, just one police

:04:58.:05:02.

car there, the lights were still going, I think the engine was still

:05:02.:05:06.

going. And there was quite a few local residents around. And I said

:05:07.:05:11.

what was that bang, what's happened, one of them said to me they have

:05:11.:05:16.

been shot. I said who has been shot, the policemen they said, they have

:05:16.:05:20.

been killed. Dale Cregan is the man the police have been hunting for

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months for incidents like this, where a hand grenade was thrown in

:05:26.:05:29.

Manchester. They offered a �50,000 reward for information. This

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followed a shooting in a pub of Mark Short who was in his 20s, and

:05:36.:05:40.

then the murder and grenade attack of his father, 46-year-old David

:05:40.:05:47.

Short, at his Manchester home. Short was killed in Droylsden, and

:05:47.:05:50.

ever since then the residents have been terrified because of the

:05:50.:05:53.

criminal activities going on in the past weeks. After the shooting in

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Droylsden, members of the public were left shaken and scared and

:05:56.:06:01.

fearful as to what was going on. This was a normal pub where the

:06:01.:06:04.

attack happened? Working men's pub, people going after work for a drink.

:06:04.:06:09.

His father was killed in August? was, he was killed at a home in

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Clayton, in quite a brutal, targeted attack, so the GMP have

:06:15.:06:19.

said. Using hand grenades? Yes, it is not every day a hand grenade is

:06:19.:06:24.

launched in England. In the past six weeks there has been four cases

:06:24.:06:29.

of grenade explosions. We believe he has been protected by criminal

:06:30.:06:33.

conspiracy to harbour him, we are absolutely determined to fully

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investigate that conspiracy, and bring the people involved to book.

:06:40.:06:45.

This case tells us something about the nature of organised crime, the

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web of intimidation that it creates. And the fact that people then

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sometimes see others as folk heros. Dale Cregan gave himself up,

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walking into a police station in Hyde this afternoon. The Prime

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Minister was, meanwhile, expressing his horror at the day's events.

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What we have seen is just an absolutely despicable act, one of

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pure evil, the cold-blooded murder of two female police officers doing

:07:14.:07:18.

their job, out there, protecting the public. Another reminder of the

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incredible risks and great work our police service does. As the Chief

:07:22.:07:26.

Constable said, two policewomen killed in cold blood. He called it

:07:26.:07:31.

one of the darkest days in the had history of the Greater Manchester

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force. In fact, few forces anywhere in the land have had worse than

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this. The local MP Jonathan Reynolds, and inspector Ian Hanson,

:07:41.:07:45.

chairman of the Greater Manchester Police Federation are joining us

:07:45.:07:48.

from Manchester. Jonathan Reynolds, can you tell us what sort of an

:07:48.:07:53.

area is this where the crime took place? It is a strong community, it

:07:54.:07:59.

is a good area, good people here. A mixed area, as you would expect,

:07:59.:08:01.

like most parts of Greater Manchester. There is a profound

:08:01.:08:06.

sense of shock and disbelief here tonight. It is very hard to

:08:06.:08:10.

comprehend what has gone on here, it is not an area with a

:08:10.:08:14.

particularly high crime rate to neighbouring areas, it has a good

:08:14.:08:17.

relationship with the neighbourhood police. It is an absolute shock

:08:17.:08:21.

something has happened like this today. There is clearly an on going

:08:21.:08:24.

problem with organised crime in the Greater Manchester area, the Chief

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Constable talked today. It was striking, he talked about the

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nature of organised crime, the level of intimidation it create,

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the fact that people sometimes see others as folk heros for being

:08:37.:08:42.

involved in that sort of activity. What is he talking about? Well, I

:08:42.:08:46.

think the high-profile nature of the crimes associated with this

:08:46.:08:51.

individual does attract, sometimes, negative publicity. I would say

:08:52.:08:55.

that actually Greater Manchester Police have a very good record of

:08:55.:08:58.

reducing violent crime, particularly gun-related incidents

:08:58.:09:01.

in Greater Manchester. They have done a tremendous job over the last

:09:01.:09:05.

ten years in particular. It would be among to malign Manchester with

:09:05.:09:09.

gun crime again. The Chief Constable, I think, spoke correctly,

:09:09.:09:13.

when he said you have to alienate, or certainly tackle anyone who

:09:13.:09:16.

voices any kind of support for these actions. Nobody wants this

:09:16.:09:20.

kind of thing to happen in their community. It is absolutely

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dreadful, and no-one should at all celebrate or look to admire people

:09:23.:09:27.

involved in this kind of thing. is very unusual, in this country,

:09:27.:09:31.

for a man to commit a double murder, then to be on the run for as many

:09:32.:09:37.

week as this man was, for there to be a �50,000 reward, which illicits

:09:37.:09:45.

no information, it is odd, isn't it? It is, there was a huge manhunt

:09:45.:09:49.

for this individual, it had taken over 40 days, but there was a huge

:09:49.:09:54.

amount of police resources into it. A great many properties already

:09:54.:09:57.

searched and firearms warrants executed. It was their number one

:09:57.:10:00.

priority, I certainly got the impression they were doing

:10:00.:10:03.

everything they could, but Greater Manchester is a big area, there was

:10:03.:10:07.

obviously no intelligence linking him to this address here, and no

:10:07.:10:11.

reason to believe this was something other than a routine

:10:11.:10:16.

callout when this occurred. That is the result of the tragedy we have

:10:16.:10:21.

seen today. Do you happen to know if any more information has been

:10:21.:10:24.

forth coming since the tragedy occurred? There was no information

:10:24.:10:28.

that this address had any link to the person wanted for the original

:10:28.:10:32.

murders. Had there been, a risk assessment would have been done,

:10:32.:10:34.

and unarmed officers wouldn't have been deployed. From the information

:10:34.:10:37.

we have got, there is no criticism in that respect. Can you help us in

:10:37.:10:41.

a point of information, if a couple of officers are sent out to inquire

:10:41.:10:45.

into a burglary, as this was said to be, what protection do they

:10:45.:10:51.

carry with them? Well, what we have to do really is look at the facts

:10:51.:10:57.

of the incident, GMP handles thousands of incidents a day, the

:10:57.:11:02.

Tameside division, a busy division, handles several hundred incidents

:11:02.:11:06.

per day. We can't deploy armed police officers to every incident

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in Tameside, whatever the specter in the background is. The price of

:11:10.:11:15.

these officers being deployed, there would have been a risk

:11:15.:11:20.

assessment, hindsight is a wonderful thing. There is no words

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to express theoror -- horrors that has descended on Greater Manchester,

:11:25.:11:30.

I don't think it is the time to be pointing fingers. I wasn't dreaming

:11:30.:11:33.

of pointing a finger, I don't think anybody is. You raise the question

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of armed officers, why is it that within the police there is such

:11:38.:11:42.

opposition to the idea of carrying weapons? I think it is something of

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a cultural thing. We in the British police service are proud of

:11:46.:11:52.

policing with consent. We are born out of communities, we police

:11:52.:12:01.

communities and we are part of those communities. Today is making

:12:01.:12:05.

us take a cold, hard look at ourselves. I know the media today

:12:05.:12:09.

have been asking questions about an armed Police Service, today isn't

:12:09.:12:14.

the day for that debate. It is time to grieve and move the force on, we

:12:14.:12:18.

have to police the city tomorrow. There will be a tribute to the

:12:19.:12:23.

officers today who paid the ultimate price, if we pick

:12:23.:12:28.

ourselves up and a move on in on their behalf. There is still

:12:28.:12:31.

considerable shock? This is unprecedented. Sadly the British

:12:31.:12:37.

Police Service does see officers pay the ultimate sacrifice with an

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unfortunate regularity, something like this, is completely off the

:12:41.:12:48.

scale. There is no script for this. Greater Manchester police officers,

:12:48.:12:54.

and everyone part of GMP is numb. We don't know how to deal with it.

:12:54.:13:00.

We will pick ourselves up and move on. Mr Reynolds, in the broader

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community? The community is in absolute shock here, I agree, I

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don't think today is the debate for the wider implications of this. I

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think nothing can provide an answer to why something like this happens.

:13:12.:13:15.

No-one can explain why someone would be driven to do this. But I

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just hope there is some comfort for the families of these two officers,

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knowing the whole nation is thinking of them tonight and

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standing alongside them. What they are facing at this minute is

:13:29.:13:31.

absolutely horrendous.. Thank you very much. If you were watching

:13:31.:13:34.

last night, you would have seen the Defence Secretary defend the

:13:34.:13:37.

continuing British commitment of British troops in Afghanistan. So

:13:37.:13:40.

far this year over 50 international soldiers have been murdered by

:13:40.:13:44.

members of the Afghan military, or people pretending to be members of

:13:44.:13:49.

the Afghan military. So today NATO announced it was scaling back joint

:13:49.:13:52.

operations with the Afghan Army. If the plan to hand over to them is

:13:52.:13:58.

supposed to be still on course, one for Mark Urban to work out. This i

:13:58.:14:04.

ZAF decision today? The decision was d ISAF decision today? This

:14:04.:14:09.

decision was made at the weekend, to scale back work between the two

:14:09.:14:12.

forces. It seems to be temporary. It was briefed to the American

:14:12.:14:16.

press that this was quite a significant change in policy, from

:14:16.:14:24.

one two years ago, when General McChris kal was there and he said

:14:24.:14:27.

they would fight shoulder-to- shoulder with the Afghans. Then the

:14:27.:14:32.

British got on and said they don't do as much as we do, and we have

:14:32.:14:36.

our ways as well. And the emergency statement today stressed that the

:14:36.:14:39.

American commander of regional command south-west, had said it was

:14:39.:14:43.

all right for the British to carry on pretty much as they have been

:14:43.:14:49.

doing. He has endorsed the approach currently being taken by the UK-led

:14:49.:14:56.

task force, Helmand, including mentoring at below, mentoring and

:14:56.:15:02.

parting at below Ka nark dak level. That means the UK partnering

:15:02.:15:05.

operations will continue substantially unchanged by the

:15:05.:15:09.

order. How does this change things on the ground? It seems to be one

:15:09.:15:14.

more incremental step, both in terms of disengaging those forces

:15:14.:15:20.

and trying to minimise these called green-on-blue incidents. Going to

:15:20.:15:23.

patrol bases even a couple of years ago, I could see there was a line

:15:23.:15:27.

in the base where it was shared with the Afghans, where they were

:15:27.:15:31.

told not to cross the line without permission from NATO forces. This

:15:31.:15:37.

all started happening in the British area, after an incident

:15:37.:15:42.

called Blue 25, and five British soldiers were killed off duty.

:15:42.:15:47.

Those changes happened a few years ago and they have been increasing.

:15:47.:15:52.

And the places where the troops can be cheek-by-jowl have been

:15:52.:15:55.

transferred to entire Afghan control over the summer, they have

:15:55.:16:01.

been trying to mitigate risk then. But there will still be meetings

:16:02.:16:09.

and communities if people want to carry out a crime of this kind.

:16:09.:16:13.

does it affect the exit strategy? You can argue that cutting the

:16:13.:16:17.

apron strings with the Afghan forces is a good thing. It

:16:17.:16:21.

encourages them to take more responsibility, and reduces the

:16:21.:16:23.

chance of friction with American and British soldiers who are not

:16:24.:16:28.

always the kindest in pointing out the error of their ways. It could

:16:28.:16:32.

have a positive effect, or it could leave them floundering.

:16:32.:16:35.

Thank you. Joining us from Washington to discuss the

:16:35.:16:38.

significance of today's announcement is the former US

:16:38.:16:43.

Ambassador to NATO, Kurt Volker, here in the studio is the former

:16:43.:16:45.

Military Intelligence Officer, Frank Ledwidge, who served in the

:16:45.:16:49.

Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan, his book, Losing Small Wars, is his

:16:49.:16:53.

account of why he thinks Britain has fared so badly.

:16:53.:16:58.

How do you imagine the Taliban will see this announcement? I think they

:16:58.:17:02.

will see it as a success for their strategy. I think that when we look

:17:02.:17:06.

at the bulk of the Afghan national security forces, they are very

:17:06.:17:08.

patriotic, they are fighting for their country, working together

:17:08.:17:13.

with us. A small number of Taliban can infiltrate that, and attack

:17:13.:17:16.

with green-on-blue attacks, some international fores, that causes a

:17:16.:17:20.

shift or halt in the way we execute our strategy. They will see this as

:17:20.:17:24.

something of a success. How do you think they will see it? I agree,

:17:24.:17:29.

over the last few years we have had a rowing back of an extended

:17:29.:17:34.

involvement up to 30 years, it was to finish at the end of 2014, now

:17:34.:17:39.

we are looking at even a moderation of that. From the Taliban's

:17:39.:17:42.

perspective, they will see and preach it. It will seem a

:17:42.:17:45.

demonstration of continuing success on their part. That's wait they

:17:45.:17:49.

will play it. In other circumstances, you might have, if

:17:49.:17:55.

this is a perceived success, or a reverse for western strategy in

:17:55.:18:00.

Afghanistan, you might see that as shifting the timetable, but the

:18:00.:18:02.

timetable apparently is not going to shift, all the forces are going

:18:02.:18:07.

to be out by the end of 2014? see, time will tell. I think what

:18:07.:18:13.

we can do today, and we can used to's or yesterday's announcement as

:18:13.:18:17.

an opportunity, as an -- today or yesterday's announcement as an

:18:17.:18:20.

opportunity to say it is time the Afghans cut away on their own,

:18:20.:18:24.

another two years alongside them will not make any strategic or

:18:24.:18:26.

operational difference, or any major difference. And the

:18:26.:18:30.

difference for us, of course, of hanging on, continuing in combat

:18:30.:18:35.

over the next few years, 40, 50, 60 more families without sons. What do

:18:35.:18:45.
:18:45.:18:47.

you think is going to be the long- term impact of these attacks?

:18:47.:18:50.

think attacks themselves are not all that difficult, we have lost

:18:51.:18:55.

forces because of the attacks and other situations too. The issue is

:18:55.:19:00.

what are we trying to achieve in Afghanistan, if we are trying to

:19:00.:19:03.

get out we are on that track any way, the attack won't help that. If

:19:03.:19:06.

the effort is really to try to bring about a stable state, to

:19:06.:19:11.

bring about some security, to give the Afghan people a chance to

:19:11.:19:15.

pursue their own development, and make sure extremist groups, such as

:19:15.:19:19.

the Taliban, or those they have given access to, don't get control

:19:19.:19:23.

of Afghanistan again, then we need to take the attacks as a signal,

:19:23.:19:27.

and say we need to re-think the strategy. Transitioning in two

:19:27.:19:31.

years to Afghan leadership looks less and less convincing that this

:19:31.:19:35.

will be an effective way to ensure we deliver the kind of Afghanistan

:19:35.:19:40.

we said we seek to do. We need to think about the deadline and our

:19:40.:19:43.

commitment, we need to renew our engagment with supporting the

:19:43.:19:48.

Afghan, the vast majority of which do want to build their own country.

:19:48.:19:53.

You are saying the deadline is integral to successful completion

:19:53.:19:57.

of the strategy? Yes, it signals to the Taliban when they will know we

:19:57.:20:01.

will be gone, and to the population in the middle, we won't be there,

:20:01.:20:07.

but the Taliban will. It is very important we don't inflate the

:20:07.:20:12.

Taliban, they are a southern resistance movement, and Al-Qaeda

:20:12.:20:16.

are an international terrorist movement. We can talk to the

:20:16.:20:21.

Taliban, Al-Qaeda is a different thing. We have essentially beaten

:20:21.:20:27.

off Al-Qaeda to the front end of 2002, since then they haven't been

:20:27.:20:33.

in Afghanistan. We must draw that distinction. As for a viable state,

:20:33.:20:40.

something of 95% of Afghan regard their Government as a bunch of

:20:40.:20:45.

thieves, robbers, rapists and war criminals. There is aepblment of

:20:45.:20:49.

truth in those accusations -- an element of truth in those

:20:49.:20:53.

accusations? There is. Given that both these countries and many

:20:53.:20:57.

others are committed to getting out as quickly as possible, by the end

:20:57.:21:02.

of 2014, can they do so and loaf a credible Afghan security structure

:21:02.:21:08.

in place? Time will tell, the problem is, our perspective is very

:21:08.:21:13.

different from that of many senior Afghan officers, who realise that

:21:13.:21:19.

3% of their force is of southern Pashtun origin, which is the

:21:19.:21:24.

heartland of the Taliban. How that plays out in future is unclear. One

:21:24.:21:29.

thing we can be sure, most of the Afghan Army is as foreign to

:21:29.:21:33.

southern Pashtuns as the British army is. How do you see it, is it

:21:34.:21:39.

possible that the western countries are going to leave a credible

:21:39.:21:43.

security system in place in Afghanistan? It is certainly

:21:43.:21:47.

possible.S if certainly possible. We are making the effort -- it is

:21:47.:21:52.

certainly possible. We are making the effort to train Afghan forces,

:21:52.:21:56.

support governance, it is possible. It is a very risk strategy, we have

:21:56.:22:00.

to think about what if it doesn't work out that way. It is credible

:22:00.:22:03.

to believe an alternative scenario would have the Taliban taking

:22:03.:22:07.

control of the south. The Afghan security forces essentially

:22:07.:22:10.

controlling the north. One of the warlords in the west re-

:22:10.:22:15.

establishing control there. And then you have a question of does

:22:15.:22:19.

the Taliban retry to take the entire country, as before. Or do

:22:19.:22:23.

the Afghan national security forces try to fight back against them. You

:22:23.:22:27.

may see something of a civil war emerge a few years from now. No-one

:22:27.:22:32.

wants that, we need to think about the strategy we pursue today to try

:22:32.:22:37.

to make that scenario much less likely than it now may appear.

:22:37.:22:41.

Now, a President for all Americans, we have heard that promise time

:22:41.:22:46.

after time, as someone or other runs for election for the White

:22:46.:22:51.

House. Astonishing to hear Mitt Romney, the Republican challenger,

:22:51.:22:54.

say he isn't much bothered about representing half of the electorate.

:22:54.:23:00.

He spent most of today not trying to unsay what he said, but to

:23:00.:23:04.

apologise, without apologising. He fell victim to every phone being a

:23:04.:23:09.

camera, and declaring to a room full of private donors that half

:23:09.:23:14.

the electorate are a bunch of scroungers, is up there with

:23:14.:23:24.
:23:24.:23:47.

playing strip poker with Las Vegas In internet gaming slang, the exact

:23:47.:23:56.

moment of defeat is called "getting owned". For some reason it is spelt

:23:56.:24:02.

like that. It was the Internet that turned up Mitt Romney's potential

:24:02.:24:07.

faux pas, made at a private donors dinner in bok ka ratten to.

:24:07.:24:13.

understand there has been a video on the Internet. Cue some artful

:24:13.:24:17.

rephrasing from the candidate today. I believe the point I made is the

:24:17.:24:21.

President starts out with a large number of the voters, 49%, these

:24:21.:24:25.

are people in his camp. And they will vote for him, almost no matter

:24:25.:24:28.

what, I have also a large number of people who will vote for me almost

:24:28.:24:33.

no matter what, at least I hope so. And that my campaign effort is to

:24:33.:24:37.

focus on the people in the middle. Owning a presidential candidate is

:24:37.:24:43.

a tough proposition, in 1980 Ronald Reagan owned Jimmy Carter like this.

:24:43.:24:48.

There you go again. Bill Clinton did it to George Bush

:24:48.:24:57.

senior. While Bush junior, infamously owned

:24:57.:25:03.

Ronan Kerr with this one. I served with Ronan Kerr. -- John Kerry.

:25:03.:25:08.

served with John Kerry. John Kerry has not been honest about what

:25:08.:25:15.

happened in Vietnam. Senator Kerry almost owned himself when he

:25:15.:25:25.
:25:25.:25:42.

dismissed the pence vainals in his So, is this one a terminal cock-up,

:25:42.:25:46.

or just another thing. Here is what some voters in the swing state of

:25:46.:25:50.

Florida told us this morning. It's not surprising. It's not

:25:50.:25:53.

surprising that he would say something like. That I think he

:25:53.:26:00.

should pay more attention, but that's the Republican state, that

:26:00.:26:03.

they care only about themselves and a certain class of people. If

:26:03.:26:06.

you're not like me, if you don't look like me or have as much money

:26:06.:26:10.

as I, then I really don't want to have anything to do with you.

:26:10.:26:16.

I support him? I'm a registered Republican and he makes me ashamed

:26:16.:26:20.

at times. Why is that Because of his comments and his fill loss fees.

:26:20.:26:26.

He should be appeal -- Philosophys. He should be appealing to the

:26:26.:26:31.

country, elections are not one by one demographic but the entire

:26:31.:26:35.

country. I think the comments were aimed at the target audience, but

:26:35.:26:38.

probably reveals his true nature about how he feels about the

:26:38.:26:43.

different classes in America. Lost in all this was another Romney

:26:43.:26:47.

comment, made at the same event, also leaked to the Internet,

:26:47.:26:50.

suggesting his administration would see no point in pursuing the

:26:51.:26:54.

Palestinian peace process with any vigour. But some political

:26:54.:26:58.

commentators now think a Romney administration looks a lot less

:26:58.:27:04.

likely. Paul Mason is here with us now. This claim that 47 perof

:27:04.:27:09.

Americans don't pay income tax, is it true? Amazingly it is true.

:27:09.:27:12.

Although it is complicated. If we run this graph, it shows that over

:27:12.:27:16.

the past few decades, large numbers of people have become exempted from

:27:16.:27:21.

paying this one tax, income tax. You can see the crucial decades of

:27:21.:27:25.

the last two, are free market economics where Democrats and

:27:25.:27:30.

Republicans have done this, given tax breaks to the upper echelon,

:27:30.:27:37.

and sweetened the pill with tax emsems of the middle-classes and

:27:37.:27:43.

47% don't pay income tax. It seems a big number? Here is where the

:27:43.:27:46.

complication of the tax service get politically complicated for Romney.

:27:46.:27:50.

It is true half of those who fall through the tax net on income tax

:27:50.:27:55.

are on benefits. The other half are really, what's happening, is they

:27:55.:27:59.

are getting tax credits that offset their tax bill, it is called tax

:27:59.:28:03.

units, if we break that down, 44% of them are elderly. Immediate

:28:03.:28:07.

problem, because there is a lot of elderly Republicans who don't pay

:28:07.:28:17.
:28:17.:28:19.

tax, therefore. The other 25%, 33%, are working poor with family. And

:28:19.:28:24.

there is this is just income tax. Even the poor can be paying sales

:28:24.:28:28.

tax, property tax, local taxes. The idea that they don't have a stake

:28:28.:28:31.

in the system because they don't pay this one tax is something that

:28:32.:28:38.

you can only really believe if you don't study the graphs. It is not

:28:38.:28:44.

true, if it is true it is the run cans' fault? -- Republicans' fault?

:28:44.:28:47.

The politics have been spinning around in the last 24 hours. The

:28:47.:28:51.

balance sheet looks something like this H the first problem he has got

:28:51.:28:54.

is judgment, if you want to be President, do you want to go around

:28:54.:28:58.

making speeches like this, even in private. The second is the idea

:28:58.:29:02.

that Democrats are people who don't have a stake in the American dream,

:29:02.:29:07.

and Republicans are. It is quite simplistic one, and if you are

:29:07.:29:11.

trying to win a small number of swing voters, which he says he's

:29:11.:29:14.

trying to do. Some of them have been caught in the misunderstanding

:29:14.:29:18.

of what who pays this. The final thing is the demeanor, throughout

:29:18.:29:22.

the campaign Romney has looked like a waxwork dummy, uncomfortable in

:29:23.:29:26.

speeches, quite stiff. In that video, it has been well noted on

:29:26.:29:31.

the American media, he's completely fluent, he's happy, comfortable in

:29:31.:29:35.

his skin. It doesn't take much psychology to work out that is

:29:35.:29:40.

probably what he believes. Some of the other stuff he's saying he's

:29:40.:29:47.

not so on top of. He's among his own people there? It was a private

:29:47.:29:51.

speech, there will be a certain part of the Republican Party it

:29:51.:29:56.

won't damage him W but you could hear there, in the swing state of

:29:56.:30:00.

Florida, among middle-class voters, including Republicans, they are not

:30:00.:30:03.

comfortable with the idea that if you don't pay tax you don't have a

:30:03.:30:07.

stake in the system. To discuss Mitt Romney's comments,

:30:07.:30:11.

and what they can tell us about the philosophical conflict at the heart

:30:11.:30:15.

of this year's presidential election, we have from Washington,

:30:15.:30:24.

Matt Lewis, conlumist for the daily website, -- columnist for the daily

:30:25.:30:29.

website Daily Caller, and my other guest.

:30:29.:30:33.

Can you tell us on this side of the Atlantic who are always being told

:30:33.:30:38.

about the wonderful dynamic capitalist economy you have, this

:30:38.:30:43.

is astonishing that half of your people don't pay income tax? As was

:30:43.:30:48.

mentioned they pay taxes, property tax, sales tax, but about half of

:30:48.:30:54.

Americans don't pay federal income tax. On top of that about 49% of

:30:54.:30:58.

Americans get some form of benefit. This is not widely known. It is a

:30:58.:31:01.

legitimate issue. Romney would have probably preferred it didn't come

:31:01.:31:06.

out in the sort of "gotcha" way. But it is a debate to have. It is

:31:06.:31:12.

also true, isn't it, as Paul, my colleague, mentioned, that a lot of

:31:12.:31:16.

people who don't pay federal income tax are Republicans? That is

:31:16.:31:20.

absolutely true. Although, I would say, if you listen closely to Mitt

:31:20.:31:24.

Romney's comments, he wasn't just talking, he was talking about

:31:24.:31:30.

people not vested in paying income tax, but he also talked about the

:31:30.:31:33.

entitlement philosophy. And Romney actually said, who think they are

:31:33.:31:37.

entitled to a house, and to food, and to healthcare. I think we can

:31:37.:31:41.

all agree where he all need those things, the question is, should

:31:41.:31:45.

Government be providing from cradle to grave, everything that we need,

:31:45.:31:50.

or should we as individuals take responsibility for that. That's the

:31:50.:31:55.

big debate that I hope we have in the next 50 days. He has tapped

:31:55.:32:02.

into something, hasn't he. The state has been growing, hugely in

:32:02.:32:06.

the United States? I'm not so sure I would agree with that. The point

:32:06.:32:10.

your commentator made earlier, to the extend a large number of

:32:10.:32:14.

Americans aren't paying taxes or are getting credits or benefits,

:32:14.:32:19.

like increased food stamps, or Medicare to get drugs. They were

:32:19.:32:22.

two initiatives that game under George Bush, whether or not the

:32:22.:32:26.

state is growing in the US, there is a debate going forward about how

:32:26.:32:29.

much the state should be helping. I think Romney has positioned himself

:32:29.:32:34.

very badly in that debate. We have a methology, or we have had -- a

:32:34.:32:38.

mythology in this country that we can make it up the ladder by

:32:38.:32:42.

ourselves, we don't need any help at all. I think post 2008 we

:32:42.:32:45.

realise that is not right. I think Romney is on the wrong side of that

:32:45.:32:51.

debate. And you pointed out earlier, he was sitting and making these

:32:51.:32:56.

comments at a $50,000 a plate dinner with his own people. There

:32:56.:33:01.

is a portion of the Republican Party that buys into this mythology,

:33:01.:33:05.

the rest of America doesn't. says something about the state of

:33:05.:33:07.

politics in your country, that somebody, and frankly, it must be

:33:07.:33:12.

true to some degree on both sides, that effectively you can write off

:33:12.:33:16.

a huge chunk of the electorate, as people who you are never going to

:33:16.:33:23.

be able to reach out to? Absolutely. Mitt Romney is guilty of talking

:33:23.:33:28.

like a strategist. And there is a famous saying here in the United

:33:28.:33:32.

States that politics is like making sausage, you don't want to see it

:33:32.:33:35.

being done. That was what Mitt Romney was doing. The truth is, we

:33:35.:33:40.

live in a world of limited resores, if you are going to run --

:33:40.:33:43.

resources, if you are going to run a campaign, you have three people,

:33:43.:33:48.

the people for you, the people against and you the undecideds. The

:33:48.:33:52.

people who are for you turn out on election day, the people undecided

:33:52.:33:58.

you persuade. The people against, you frankly, ignore. It should be

:33:58.:34:02.

noted that there was a gap will you please tracking poll that came out

:34:02.:34:08.

today that showed Barack Obama has, you guessed it, 47% of the vote.

:34:08.:34:10.

The exact per cent that Mitt Romney said he had. He was right about

:34:10.:34:20.
:34:20.:34:21.

that. Go on? Sorry, I lost you for a

:34:21.:34:24.

minute. I think that going to your point

:34:24.:34:28.

earlier about how this is going to affect the election, this is a huge

:34:28.:34:32.

turning point. I think this week will be remembered unless there is

:34:32.:34:35.

some major change that we can't foresee right now, as the week that

:34:35.:34:38.

Mitt Romney lost the election. And I think it is going to start a

:34:38.:34:41.

bigger debate in this country about what kind of country we want to

:34:41.:34:45.

have, what kind of role we want Government to play, how big or how

:34:45.:34:50.

small we want it to be, and how easy it is to work your way up the

:34:50.:34:54.

ladder in this country. There are big questions about this. You say

:34:54.:34:59.

this will be going down as the week he lost the election because of

:34:59.:35:02.

these comments? I think this is one of a number of mistakes he has made.

:35:02.:35:08.

I see a mood change. I think that you really can't write off 47% of

:35:08.:35:13.

the population. I think that the comment that you played earlier

:35:13.:35:20.

from the voters in swing states like Ohio, are very apropo, what is

:35:20.:35:24.

interesting is Republicans are no longer the party of optimisim. I

:35:24.:35:28.

think this plays to that. I think Democrats have grabbed that, they

:35:28.:35:33.

are the party of optimisim. Obama's speech to the convention was a can-

:35:33.:35:36.

do speech, we we are all in this together, we will reach back to

:35:36.:35:40.

those behind us and pull them up. Republicans sound like they are

:35:40.:35:42.

complaining about half of the population, that is not a message

:35:42.:35:49.

that will go down in November, I don't think. I would like to be

:35:49.:35:54.

optimistic, but we have very serious problems, a $16 trillion

:35:54.:35:59.

debt that we have to bring down and make changes. There are three

:35:59.:36:02.

debates between now and the election, anything could change. I

:36:02.:36:05.

agree, I hope there is this national Conservatives, I think

:36:06.:36:09.

there is a real question about whether or not we want to have an

:36:09.:36:12.

entitlement society, or opportunity society. Whether or not we want to

:36:12.:36:15.

have the American dream, or a welfare state. I think Mitt Romney

:36:15.:36:20.

should welcome that debate, and vigorously be at the forefront of

:36:20.:36:25.

challenging President Obama to have that discussion. Thank you very

:36:25.:36:28.

much. If you look up the description of the former British

:36:28.:36:33.

colony of Kenya in Wikipedia, you will find the country described as

:36:33.:36:37.

having maintained a remarkable stability, despite changes in its

:36:37.:36:40.

political system. Looking up anything in Wikipedia is a risky

:36:40.:36:44.

thing at the best of times. Tell that to the police who today found

:36:44.:36:48.

two mass graves in the Tana Delta region, in the east of the country.

:36:48.:36:54.

The graves are believed to hold the remains of a hundred people, killed

:36:54.:36:57.

in the last month, as Kenya prepares to hold a general election,

:36:57.:37:01.

which is still six months away. After the last election violence

:37:02.:37:07.

claimed over 1,000 lives. The BBC East Africa correspondent

:37:07.:37:11.

investigates the links between the latest massacre and the upcoming

:37:11.:37:16.

vote. By the time we got to the village

:37:16.:37:22.

of Gillows, there was no-one left. Most of the -- most of the houses

:37:22.:37:28.

had been torched, not a home remained untouched. The only living

:37:28.:37:34.

things were the flies and the remains of butchered animals in

:37:34.:37:37.

silence. The attackers had had come in the early morning. Several

:37:37.:37:42.

hundred men, some armed with guns, most carried spheres, clubs or bows

:37:42.:37:48.

and arrow, they set fire to the villagers' hut. Some ran for

:37:48.:37:53.

shelter in the mosque, but 38 people were hacked to death. Men,

:37:53.:37:56.

women and children, indiscriminately. This was a

:37:56.:38:02.

massacre. TRANSLATION: All of a sudden the village was under siege,

:38:02.:38:07.

there were so many of them. They were wearing red bandanas and white

:38:07.:38:16.

shoes, they didn't speak. They just shouted "kill, kill, kill". At a

:38:16.:38:20.

hospital nearby we met Jamila, she's eight years old, her face was

:38:20.:38:24.

slashed open with a machete, she's still too traumatised to speak. The

:38:24.:38:34.

doctors say she will pull through. She was fortunate to survive. In

:38:34.:38:37.

the abandoned village, a square patch of freshly-dug earth, marks

:38:37.:38:41.

the spot where some of the victims lie buried in a mass grave. It will

:38:41.:38:46.

be a long time before people venture back here. The stench is

:38:46.:38:53.

pretty strong here, still. Even all these days later, because of the

:38:53.:38:59.

crack cusses of slaughtered livestock that -- crack kass of

:38:59.:39:04.

slaughtered livestock that - crack cusses of slaughtered livestock. It

:39:04.:39:09.

looks like this was more than a spontaneous outburst of anger, you

:39:09.:39:19.

have to wonder if it was more well planned or premeditated.

:39:19.:39:22.

TRANSLATION: The attackers were divided into three groups, one

:39:22.:39:27.

torched the houses, others carried off the injured, there was a third

:39:27.:39:32.

group whose job it was to just kill. On the surface, this is a conflict

:39:32.:39:39.

over access to land and water. On one side are the pokomo people,

:39:39.:39:45.

armers, small holdings, who eek out a living growing groups by the

:39:45.:39:52.

banks of the river. On the other side are the Orma, semi-onadmic

:39:52.:39:58.

cattle drovers who roam the land in search of grazing grounds for their

:39:58.:40:07.

herds. The farmers complain the herds trample their crops. In the

:40:07.:40:11.

past the difficulties have been resolved peacefully, but things

:40:11.:40:17.

have changed. This herder says he's afraid, showing us his newly-

:40:17.:40:20.

acquired dagger, he says if anything happens they will

:40:20.:40:26.

retaliate and defend themselves. Five years ago Kenya shocked itself

:40:26.:40:30.

and the world. Violence erupted, following a disputed general

:40:30.:40:35.

election. The clashes were centered on the Rift Valley and in the

:40:35.:40:39.

capital Nairobi. Communities turned on each other, killing and maiming,

:40:39.:40:44.

with apparent abandon. In their fury, those who believed

:40:44.:40:47.

victory had been stolen from them, lashed out at those they saw as

:40:47.:40:52.

benefiting from the outcome. Attacks provoked counter-attacks,

:40:52.:40:56.

and the bloodshed continued for months. At the end of it 1,200

:40:56.:41:01.

people were dead, over half a million homeless.

:41:01.:41:05.

But the killings were not entirely spontaneous. Four men are due to

:41:05.:41:09.

stand trial at the International Criminal Court in the Hague,

:41:09.:41:12.

accused of orchestrating the violence. Two of those men are also

:41:12.:41:20.

running for President in the next election. The long shadow of 2008

:41:20.:41:25.

now hangs over Kenya, as it prepares to go to the polls next

:41:25.:41:28.

March. Election season has already begun, there was by-elections in

:41:28.:41:31.

three constituencies on Monday, and tensions between the main

:41:31.:41:34.

candidates are simmering. When people go to the polls in Kenya,

:41:34.:41:38.

they are generally not thinking about manifestos or political

:41:38.:41:42.

platforms, it is all about getting your candidate elected to office.

:41:42.:41:46.

And your candidate generally means somebody from your tribe or

:41:46.:41:50.

community. Your candidate's success or failure can mean the difference

:41:50.:41:54.

between you getting a job or becoming unemployed. And the

:41:54.:41:57.

success or failure of your political block can mean the

:41:57.:42:01.

difference, say, between a road being built to your area or not. So

:42:01.:42:06.

in Kenya elections are a matter of poverty or prosperity. They can

:42:06.:42:14.

even be a matter of life and death. In the tan da delta, religious

:42:14.:42:19.

leaders and politicians are preaching piece to their

:42:19.:42:22.

constituents. Many don't believe these massacres were caused by

:42:23.:42:27.

small, local land disputes. Someone local MP has been sacked from the

:42:27.:42:31.

cabinet, on suspicion of inciting violence, others are suspected.

:42:31.:42:35.

fits the pattern that before an election you have violence, the

:42:35.:42:42.

motive is to affect the way people vote. To gerrymander violence. To

:42:42.:42:52.
:42:52.:42:54.

create fear and terror. Political income bancy, means free --

:42:54.:42:58.

incumbanc means freedom to steal, you become rich in Government,

:42:58.:43:04.

people areing will to kill for that. Land is a valuable commodity, not

:43:04.:43:07.

just for those who live on it. Big investors, local and national, are

:43:07.:43:10.

becoming interested in the region's potential. What is happening on the

:43:10.:43:14.

other side of this electric fence is a pilot project. They are

:43:14.:43:19.

growing crops to be converted into biofuels, if the experiment is

:43:19.:43:24.

successful, it will be repeated across vast situates of land here,

:43:24.:43:30.

currently used -- swathes of land here, currently used for cattle.

:43:30.:43:36.

The potential conflict over land takes place on various different

:43:36.:43:39.

levels, there is the individual herdsman versus the individual

:43:39.:43:41.

farmer, but there is potentially bigger business at stake here.

:43:41.:43:48.

There is a lot of external interest in the area. People want to set up

:43:48.:43:53.

large farms. They always do that with local partners, the local

:43:53.:43:59.

partners are always politically connected. And you know, moving

:43:59.:44:07.

people off land that you may want, can be done in various ways.

:44:07.:44:12.

As you drive through the Tana Delta now, you come across abandoned

:44:13.:44:16.

village after abandoned village. Many residents have fled in

:44:16.:44:20.

anticipation of trouble to come. Thousands have ended up in camp

:44:20.:44:24.

like this one, sometimes far away from home. Whether they return in

:44:24.:44:29.

time to register to vote, will depend on whether they feel

:44:29.:44:33.

confident enough in the security forces to guarantee their safety.

:44:33.:44:38.

After four weeks of violence and more than a hundred deaths, the

:44:38.:44:42.

Government has, belatedly, sent in the paramilitary police, to try to

:44:42.:44:46.

disarm and protect the area. The fear is, as the scramble for vote

:44:46.:44:51.

intensifies, and spreads across the country, these killings may mark

:44:51.:44:57.

the start of another bloody Kenyan election.

:44:57.:45:07.
:45:07.:45:31.

That's all tonight. It was announced today that the film

:45:31.:45:39.

producer John Coates has died, his best loved him of the animated

:45:39.:45:42.

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