Browse content similar to 25/09/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The battle of the badger cull turns nasty. Newsnight goes undercover in | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
the undergrowth. And learns how threats and intimidation towards | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
farmers could jeopardise the Government's plans. It was | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
harassment, they said you have fantastic garden, a fantastic- | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
looking farm, you must have a lovely lifestyle there. You enter | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
into the badger scheme, you will come up with some consequences. | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
Bill Oddie is against the cull, he is with us. We will ask if the | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
killing of these animals make scientific sense. | :00:39. | :00:45. | |
The budget for overseas aid will sore next year, the PM confirms his | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
commitment, but is he right. There are concerns that the aid budget is | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
growing so fast that the civil servants in here are having to do | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
the equivalent of shovelling money out the door to get it out fast | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
enough. The Liberal Democrats are telling us why we should vote for | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
them in the next election. Tomorrow Nick Clegg will try to rival the | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
speech made by Vince Cable, he will say there is no turning back on | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
deficit reduction, and tell the country he's still strong enough to | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
make the tough choices. How does your brain respond to information, | :01:18. | :01:27. | |
:01:28. | :01:28. | ||
pictures, number, words? Welcome to the art of data visualisation. | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
Good evening. Will badgers be to David Cameron what hunted foxes | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
became to Tony Blair? A totemic, or toxic symbol of the curious | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
relationship the English have with their animals, and something that | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
does not welcome political interference. Since the badger cull | :01:47. | :01:56. | |
received its license, 100,000 people petitioned to stop it. | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
We look at the intimidation for farmers by protesters. Some say the | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
cull will have no significant effect against TB, but the | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
Government says it has to be tried. In the dead of night, disputed | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
territory in the latest clash between farmers and wildlife | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
campaigners. Using a night vision camera, we | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
were secretly shown one of the largest sets in Gloucestershire, a | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
pilot zone for the mass slaughter of badgers. This is one of the | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
first areas where the cull will begin, in the Seth behind me, bait | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
will be -- set behind me, bait will be laid to encourage badgers to | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
come out to eat, when they are in the habit of doing, that they will | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
be shot. Cattle farmers say the move will | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
limited endless spread of TB through their herds. But the plans | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
are provoking fury. Any day now, the silence of the Gloucestershire | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
night will be broken, as campaigners rampage around the area, | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
making as much noise as possible to scare the badgers away. They say | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
that if they see anyone with a shotgun, they will stand in the way | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
to stop the badgers getting hurt. Protestor and farmer, there is a | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
gulf in mutual understanding and sympathy. Both are certain they are | :03:13. | :03:23. | |
right. January has helped organised the Gloucestershire -- Jan has | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
helped organised the Gloucestershire cull, his own farm | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
lies out of the boundary. TB has laid siege to his dairy herd, | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
costing him, he estimates, half a million pounds. We have to do | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
something different now, to sit back and let farmers take the | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
strain. We know DEFRA's budget is coming under pressure, cutbacks are | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
likely, pressure will be ramped up again. There is a huge threat to | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
the cattle industry this the west of the country, if we doesn't do | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
something effective against the disease. This protestor co- | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
ordinates the group Stop The Cull. He's promising direct action, and | :03:59. | :04:06. | |
wants to remain anonymous, in case he's targeted. We will be using | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
megaphones to disrupt the cull directly, so if we see maxmen and | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
see badgers we will make -- marksmen we will make noise to | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
scare them off. He is one of three groups opposed to the cull? | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
largest group RSPCA, with Brian May, they are broadly politically | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
lobbying. We are a direct action group going in, and stop the cull | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
taking place. There is a much more extreme group, which I would guess | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
would be the Animal Liberation Front. What sort of tactics are | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
they threatening? The Animal Liberation Front have put out | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
communiques saying they will superglue the cashpoints of | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
Sainsbury's. If it stocks milk from cull areas? Yes. It isn't just | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
protests, but locals are facing economic consequences too, with a | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
possible consumer boycott. Areas like Tewkesbury rely on the tourist | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
trade, while some supermarkets are reassuring their customers they | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
went stock milk that comes from the cull areas. The protesters claim | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
that farmers in Gloucestershire are losing heart, and support for the | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
cull. With some even pulling out because of the pressure. That's why | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
they are not taking part in the cull? Yes, they initial low said | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
they would, now they are saying they won't. -- initially said they | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
would, now they are saying they won't. What has changed their mind? | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
It is the amount of publicity it is getting and the amount of public | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
outcry. We talk today one of those farm, | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
she told us there was another reason for they are change of heart, | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
a threatening phone call. It was harassment, they said you have a | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
fantastic garden and farm, you must have a lovely lifestyle there, | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
enter in the badger scheme you will come up with some consequences. I'm | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
subsequently thinking about it all whether or not to go ahead, because | :06:06. | :06:14. | |
this is rather frightening. Stop The Cull says it doesn't support | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
such tactics? We condemn the harassment and damage to property. | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
Scientists agree killing most of the badgers in the pilot areas will | :06:22. | :06:30. | |
have an impact on cattle TB. If the full programme goes ahead, as many | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
as 100,000 badgers will be culled. Reducing cattle TB by 16%. The | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
argument between farmers and campaigners is whether that | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
reduction justifies the slaughter. I think the emotion and sentiment | :06:44. | :06:53. | |
about the badger is probably most of the problem. I think when, it is | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
very difficult, as a disease, to tell people all of the problems | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
with it, and how the badger is central in maintaining the | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
reservoir in it. Until we deal with it in a significant way, as yet | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
that may be vaccines and that is not ready for use, we have to look | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
at other ways of getting on top of the disease. | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
Vaccination, promoted as cure, not kill, is being tried over the | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
boarder in Wales. It's labour- intensive, with each badger being | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
trapped and injected. An oral vaccine will be more cost effective, | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
but is still in development. Another approach, the vaccination | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
of cattle, is banned by the EU. With no technical fix, the conflict | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
is moving towards difficult terrain, to be played out in darkness and in | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
anger. The badger minister, David Heath, | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
has gone underground, we are now joined from Leicester by the bird | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
watcher and broadcaster, Bill Oddie, who has campaigned against the cull, | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
and by Peter Kendall, President of the National Farmers' Union, David | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
Bowles from the RSPCA, and the Government aide Daniel Kawczynski. | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
Thank you for joining us. If I start with you, Bill Oddie, if | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
people are pulling out of these pilots, through intimidation, as | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
you heard in the piece, is that a good thing? I think I would | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
probably say it's the right result for the wrong reason. Because the | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
thing that bothers me most, I think, it never seems to get a mention, is | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
that we have, as conservationists, had an ever-improving relationship | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
with farmers for a considerable time now. That was very important, | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
because the British countryside and farmland in particular was losing | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
its wildlife. Not just badgers, losing wildlife all down the way. | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
And it's going to be very sad if we're now being set up against one | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
another. Because believe me, there are plenty of farmers, not just in | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
the cull areas, who have chosen not to go in with the cull. And it | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
would be very detrimental to British countryside and wildlife in | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
general. I certainly don't condone any kind of guerrilla violent | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
tactics. Although, I have to say, the practicality of carrying out | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
this cull is another big problem. I have watched enough badgers and | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
filmed enough badgers to know you only have to crack a twig and Mr | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
Badger is down in his set and he ain't coming out for several hours. | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
How on earth marksmen are going to wander round in pitch darkness and | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
shoot badgers, I simply don't know. There is bound to be confrontation. | :09:33. | :09:40. | |
Let me pick up, first of all with you David Bowles, the RSPCA, you | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
have heard Bill Oddie saying he condemns guerrilla violence tactics, | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
this is the way it is going to happen, people will be intimidated | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
out of participateing? We agree with Bill, we condemn violence on | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
all sides. There has been, what we are trying to do is to highlight | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
the fact that actually badger culling is not going to achieve | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
what we all want to achieve, which is a reduction in bovine TB in the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
cattle herd. What we have seen is the Government saying to farmers, | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
if you go down this route your problems will be solved. They are | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
not, as you said in the piece, we could see reductions as little as | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
3% in the cull areas, and around about 16% as an average. That is | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
diney in terms of the fact you are wiping out 7 -- tiny in terms it of | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
the fact you are wiping out 70% of an animal. The reason for the | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
judicial review and the way the Government presented its figures, | :10:37. | :10:47. | |
it shows over the average nine years of the I -- scientific | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
reduction unit, if you go to those areas there is a 30% reduction, if | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
you go to Ireland, where they are doing a cull of badgers, there is | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
already over a 30% reduction. This isn't just one solution, we know we | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
have to work on cattle movements and vaccination as well. But, | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
reluctantly, and this is a big reluctant, because of exactly what | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
Bill said about the relationship with the countryside and everybody | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
who loves the countryside. Reluctantly we have to start and | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
wind back the reservoir of disease in badgers. Bill Oddie, I'm going | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
to let you come back. You said this was a friction between the farmers | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
and the conservationists, surely you want to wipe out that disease? | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
Of course, and conhave vaigsists have for years and years and years | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
-- conservationists have for years and years and years T has been | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
going on for many years. Proof in my hand of a publication from many | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
years ago from the Wildlife Trust, it is telling the members what the | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
problem is, and sympathiseing entirely with farmers and saying, | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
basically, we are trying to achieve the same thing. My argument, | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
frankly, if you want to put one set of people up against another set of | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
people, let's put the farmers aside, it is the conservationists against | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
this, flipping Government, who are showing a considerable ignorance | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
and arrogance in everything to do with the countryside and | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
agriculture. For the purposes of this debate you are the "flipping" | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
Government, you can respond? What Bill Oddie hasn't talked about is | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
the suffering of the badgers themselves, they suffer an | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
appalling death because of bovine tuberculosis. You are culling the | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
badgers so they feel better? limited cull of badgers, in hot | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
spot areas, in order to try to tackle this rampent disease, which | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
is blown out of all proportion against England. It is a bit | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
cynical to say the badge letters be feeling better, why not stand up | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
and say it is about industry and protecting those people who need | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
your support? Representing a rural constituency like slowsbury, I have | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
sat on many occasion -- Shrewsbury, I have sat on many occasions with | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
farmers in their kitchens and seen grown men cry when all of their | :13:01. | :13:09. | |
herds have been slaughtered. The devastation it causes to families, | :13:09. | :13:17. | |
to smie Shropshire farm -- my Shropshire farmers and my dairy | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
farmers, I would suggest it that Bill Oddie spend time with my | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
constituents and farmers, and see the devastation they are going | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
through because of the lack of action from the Labour | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
administration for many years? Is it not a political thing that you | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
want to be seen to be doing something, and that is what your | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
Government is about, we have done something. We have a duty and | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
responsibility, Sir, to ensure that there is, that England does | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
continue to have a dairy industry. And unless we take these steps, | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
thousands of dairy farmers will go out of business. That is not true. | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
Let's talk about the dairy question for a second, there is now a | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
campaign that others have signed to try to get supermarkets to register | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
the equivalent of dolphin-friendly tuna, for example, millk from | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
places badgers have not been culled. Is that workable and would you | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
support it, should people be buying milk that hasn't come from those | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
farms? To start off with you said the Number Ten petition had 100,000 | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
signatures, one of the fastest- growing petitions in over two weeks, | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
it is still going up. It shows the depth of frustration and anger from | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
the public. We have known from the two Government consultations that | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
the majority of the public do not want to see culling. That is | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
specifically about the culling, would you like people to boycott | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
milk that didn't come from badger- friendly farms? We want people to | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
be given the choice, whether to buy milk from a badger cull area or not. | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
It is a simple consumer choice issue, it is not a boycott. At the | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
moment they don't have that choice. Modern dairy issues are incredibly | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
complicated, sometimes supermarkets buy an aggregated supply, and | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
sometimes from a few producers. You know the problems the dairy | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
industry is having in the UK at the moment, to try to bankrupt and put | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
people out of business and stop people being involved and trying to | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
save an industry. That is what I worry about this debate. In 1998 | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
there were 9,000 cattle slaughtered, last year there were 32,000 cattle | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
slaughtered because of TB, this is an explosion of disease, we must do | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
something about it. To try to drive people out of business to stop them | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
tackling the reservoir of disease I think is an incredibly | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
irresponsible line to take. What we don't know, if we get the licenses | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
in both these areas happening, the Government has then said they will | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
go to ten additional culls each year, where do we stop, do we wipe | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
out 70% of the badgers in the south west of England, all over England. | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
This is a protected species. The ironic thing is, just across the | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
border from Daniel's constituency s the Welsh Government, looking at | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
the same science and statistics have decided to go down a humane | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
vaccination route, rather than a cull route. The most important | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
thing to remember here is the Government has had a consultation | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
on this. The scientists. The Government got rid of all its | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
vaccination trials when it came into power, it didn't want to spend | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
the money on it? Over 50% of the Government said they -- public said | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
they didn't want the cull, the Government ignored them. | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
Government line on this, to have a limited cull of badgers has the | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
backing of the High Court. The scam badgers' Trust took us to court and | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
the court ruled in our favour. What all of us have to remember is the | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
High Court has assessed, and taken a huge amount of time to look | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
through all the evidence and they backed us. | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
If this turns into the equivalent of the fox-hunting ban for Tony | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
Blair, which he then said he regreted, would it be worth it? | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
very pleased that my neighbour, Owen Patterson, the new DEFRA | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
secretary, he is committed to this, I, and other rural MPs, who have a | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
duty and responsibility to our dairy farmer, will insist the | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
Government fulfils this obligation in this matter. Let me ask you | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
about the practicalities of this now, do you think they will be able | :17:09. | :17:19. | |
:17:19. | :17:22. | ||
to stop this going ahead? Who was that question to you -- Who was | :17:22. | :17:32. | |
:17:32. | :17:34. | ||
that question to? To you, Bill weeks ago and said I'm afraid this | :17:34. | :17:41. | |
was going to turn nasty. It didn't powers to say that. It is perfectly | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
obvious that it was. It will. It is police will be the next people who | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
guarantee the safety of people in an area where there are people with | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
guns, at night, in the dark, and other people wandering around | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
trying to interrupt them. on this, is more than the amount | :18:03. | :18:13. | |
:18:13. | :18:14. | ||
It is not, the message Bill should be tweeting and the RSPB, is this | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
should not turn nasty, all of the organisations campaigning against | :18:16. | :18:23. | |
the cull should put out a really big signal that lady shouldn't meal | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
will turn nasty, I would like to see all the campaigners for | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
wildlife to say it shouldn't turn nasty, we should put a message out | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
saying this sort of behaviour is beyond the pale. We don't want to | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
there are people who also feel intimidated and scared to speak out, | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
actually against the cull, because they feel that they are intimidated. | :18:50. | :18:57. | |
Thank you very much all of you. It may have been clever once, but | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
does it still make political sense be going up by a third next year, | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
when every other budget is going the Conservative decontamination | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
project, might now look too much like a political gamble, when, say | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
many in the party, there is plenty of suffering close to home. Tonight | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
at the UN, David Cameron will restate his commitment to overseas | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
aid, despite hints that his development secretary has questions | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
of her own, she will be by his side. For all the high-volume campaigning | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
of Live Aid, the commitment to spend 0.7% of GDP is actually far | :19:32. | :19:42. | |
:19:42. | :19:42. | ||
older, it goes way back to the UN in 1970. The United Nations | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
sponsored arrangement in 1970, it had no rhyme or reason, most | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
countries now don't bother about it at all. We are giving now, in this | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
country, more aid than any other country in the world with the | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
exception of the United States, which, of course, is immensely | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
richer than we are. Progress towards this goal has not | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
been very impressive. Only Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden and the | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
Netherlands manage it, according to the OECD, with Belgium not far | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
behind, and then comes Britain on 0.6%. We are committed to hitting | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
the target by 2013. The Prime Minister arrived in New York today, | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
his first stop was to meet a group of young entrepeneurs, but tomorrow | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
he will address the General Assembly of the UN, and tell them | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
that the 0.7% commitment is more important than ever, and he will | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
reaffirm Britain's commitment to it. This is where David Cameron's | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
pledge gets made into reality, the Department for International | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
Development in London. But there is, though, scepticism within Mr | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
Cameron's own party, that this huge increase in Britain's aid budget | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
will be well spent. Peter Bone is a Conservative MP, who almost | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
singlehandedly attempts to get the 0.7% enshrined in British law. | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
are talking from going from �7 billion a year to �12 billion in | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
aid. In other words you could have �5 billion of tax cuts to get the | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
economy going, without affecting any level of overseas aid, just | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
keep it at the same level we have inherited. When we came to power we | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
said overseas aid was poorly spent f we spent it better rather than | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
increasing it, we are hooked on the 0.7%. The rise in the international | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
development budget is spectacular, when set alongside other | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
unfortunate Government departments. It has a rise of 34% over the next | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
few years, the NHS is just about keeping pace with inflation. Wheen | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
mile defence, education, the Home Office, communities and local | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
Government, almost every other Government department is taking a | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
big hit. Some influential Conservatives think this sends an | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
important message about the Government's priorities. There are | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
a number of things that David Cameron did to try to show that the | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
Conservative Party was different from the Conservative Party of old. | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
And things like committing to the poorest people of the world, things | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
like maintaining the NHS budget. Things like gay marriage, are | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
absolute signs that he is still the modernising Tory that he presented | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
himself to the electorate before the election. As Britain's aid | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
budget has increased, critics say all we are doing is spending more | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
money on more marginal and questionable project. Indeed the | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons has concluded that | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
the Department of Development doesn't have the capacity to spend | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
all this extra money on its own projects, instead it is having to | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
funnel it through outside organisations with lower levels of | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
accountability, it is doing this, say MPs, not because this is a | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
smarter way of spending public money, no, they are doing it, they | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
say, because it is easier. The way the projects are described is | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
extremely vague, for example, �3020 million has gone to improve the | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
Kenyan Government's accountability to its citizens. �94 million is | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
going to improve the quality of life and opportunity for 2.4 | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
million in the Kolkata Metropolitan area. If you are worrying that all | :23:19. | :23:28. | |
this is adding to our national debt, you might not like to know that | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
�1,-- �1.4 million is to improve the economic debt of the Government | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
of Jamaica. The House of Lords has admitted that British aid is often | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
counter-productive, with much of it lost to corruption and middle men. | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
It is a bonanza of consultants, it is these who are employed at large | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
costs by the department to help them do their job. It is the | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
consultants who are the main beneficiaries of the aid programme, | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
rather than the poor people in the poor countries one would like to | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
see benefiting from economic growth and economic development. | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
Some Conservatives had hoped that the appointment of Jeremy | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
Greenstock as the new development secretary, and -- Justine Greening, | :24:09. | :24:15. | |
in the reshuffle as new Development Secretary, would help with the | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
downgrading of aid, she is with the Prime Minister in New York, and we | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
are told, fully signed up to the target. | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
Our guests are with us. Ian Birrell, former adviser to David Cameron, | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
now contributing editor of the Daily Mail is with me too. Adrian, | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
when you look at the figures and see the jump in real terms, when | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
every other department is getting cut, it is unjustifiable, isn't it? | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
I don't think it is, firstly because it is affordable, the | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
figure you didn't hear there, and which the British public rarely | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
hears, that actually this costs just over a penny on each pound of | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
Government revenue, Government spending. A penny on the pound, 99p | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
goes elsewhere. Just a penny going towards the outcomes we are seeing | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
from British aid. You are still talking about a jump from �7 | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
billion to �12 billion. These are substantialal sums of money at a | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
time when things are not affordable? Taking away that aid | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
budget, if you took it all away, you would barely make a dent in the | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
trillion-pound debt that we have in the UK today. But the difference | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
that aid is making is much more specific, actually, than your | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
report showed there. For the investment that Britain will make | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
in the next few years, the increase you just talked about, 16 million | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
children will go to school, who don't currently go to cool. 80 mill | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
-- school. 80 million will be vaccinated against life-threatening | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
diseases, 77 million will get access to things like bank accounts, | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
and things that help them work their way out of poverty. What kind | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
of place would we be if we said no to that? The other way of putting | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
the figure is it is �300 a household spent on aid. It is very | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
outdated policy, nothing to do with modernisation, it is anachronism | :26:10. | :26:17. | |
based on ideas around years ago. Educating children? The watchdog | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
said �1 billion was spent theoretically on educating children | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
in three African countries, and there was no improvement in | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
literacy or numeracy, it is about achieving targets and not about on | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
the ground. That is the biggest problem, I wouldn't object if the | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
aid was doing something to help. But it is not. I would have no | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
problem if it was going to help, it is corrosive, it is corroding the | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
connection between Governments and people. It is fuelling conflict. A | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
lot of the aid money, two-thirds of aid workers say the projects don't | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
work. This is in this huge great booming industry, where consultants | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
are getting rich. Let's not forget, for all the talk we hear about | :26:56. | :27:04. | |
education and health, actually �1.3 billion goes to the EU and improves | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
food labelling in Iceland and cleans up the EU. The whole thing | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
ising a fast thing, D of IFD don't know what to do with the money and | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
are shovelling out of it and lots of people get rich on the back of | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
it. No money that goes to Iceland does that, it does to accession | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
into the EU. That is the misunderstanding. It comes out of | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
the aid budget. It doesn't. It goes on food labelling. Address the | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
question of consultants which is a major one, �500 million last year, | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
paid to consultants, many of those sums of money go straight into the | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
pockets of the bosses who run them? I think it is absolutely right that | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
Justine Greening take as close look at it and goes through it line by | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
line and see where the money goes. It worries you? Absolutely. These | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
are big challenges, we need experts wrecks need people who have dealt | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
with these problems before to bring it to bear. Some of those will be | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
consultants. Of course she should go through and see is there money | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
to be spent here better spent in other ways. It is very convenient | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
just to say it will do more harm than good. It is very nice if it we | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
can turn around and say, let's keep all the money, there must be better | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
solutions than that? Take the former head. DIFD in Rwanda saying | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
it is the least effective public service there. You would like the | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
pledge to be dropped? It is meaningless and the target | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
ridiculous. It attacks welfare dependency at home and encourages | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
it at home, it says that it distorts targets, and it is based | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
on figures from the 1940s, when the UN looked at the figures six years | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
ago and said the target should be 0.44%. Does it matter to you if it | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
is just about a political strategy of decontamination, does it make | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
any difference to how you see this? In a sense it doesn't matter. It is | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
the policy. I don't believe it is just about that. I understand the | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
argument that is being put across there. It is the policy, it was the | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
policy of all three major parties at the last election, and so, | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
what's happening now is simply the enactment of democracy, in fact, | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
actually when you go out and talk to people. 77% of people oppose it. | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
Not really. A year ago when people were asked in a fair way, not given | :29:20. | :29:27. | |
the recession do you think we can afford the aid budget. Lots of | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
people supported Live Aid? Most recent surveys show support is | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
falling. It is veryiesy for an organisation founded like One, who | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
is founded by rock stars not paying their full whack in tax, shown up | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
for that. To advocate that people struggling in this country should | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
pay out a lot of money on projected that don't work, and shown time and | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
time again that they don't work, and not wanted by ordinary people. | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
If the same amount of money was paid, not in the way it is now, but | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
to disasters and emergencies, you wouldn't have a problem? There are | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
issues, there is so much money, when you have a disaster you have | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
1,000 aid groups turning up and chaos on the ground, and the cost | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
of housing and food soaring. And many of those saying there is a | :30:13. | :30:20. | |
huge problem with aid groups because there is so much aid money | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
sloshing around. Those campaigning every day on the issues snow it is | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
an investment we can afford, it is cheaper than people believe, and it | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
is making a bigger difference than people believe and we should | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
continue with it. Are current Lib Dem tactics working, Nick Clegg | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
will set out how he intends to attract voters in his loader's | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
speech tomorrow. Documents leaked today claim there is no real | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
evidence their current strategy is working. Our political editor is in | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
Brighton now. Take us through the documents, what happened? While we | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
have been on air the Lib Dem leader and his wife walked past us, he has | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
been practising his speech all night. He takes the speech | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
incredibly seriously. Some documents came out today, they told | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
people what they knew here already, that it is very difficult to see | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
what message is working, particularly well for the Lib Dems, | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
in either the south or the north of England. But back to that speech. | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
That speech is why he made that apology last week, to much mirth | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
and muttering from people. He wanted to clear the decks, so | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
tomorrow he would be listened to with a message that they think can | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
last the next two weeks and put them in a better place than the | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
documents do suggest. The trouble is, lots of people here, activists | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
and MPs, wonder about the strategy. The strategy is to carve out a new | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
role for them in the centre of British politics. In the speech | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
tomorrow he will talk about British politics being about three parties, | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
not two, and they will being a small third party. With that he has | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
messages on the deficit. At the start of the week we had soft | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
language for his party, who were worried about the economy and | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
deficit reduction. Today and tomorrow we will start to see them | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
hardening up again as they send their delegates on their way. | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
Saying we will have to find lots of cuts, just like the Conservatives | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
will. So there is that message, there is also something to make | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
them happier. There will be a policy on education and language | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
around the environment. What he's trying to do is position them on | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
the centre. Many MPs and activists are not sure that necessarily works. | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
It may work in 15-20 years time, that is a generational struggle, | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
that doesn't necessarily get them through the next general election. | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
One more thing, people are quoting David Lloyd George, he said if | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
you're going to jump across a chasam, it is best to do it in one | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
step. Thank you very much. The magic of television being what | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
it is, you might, indeed, recognise the next backdrop, the one you have | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
just seen for our guest, the Lib Dem Home Office Minister, Jeremy | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
Browne, who is, as we speak, swapping a quickstep with Allegra | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
to speak with us now, about those issues she has been raising. We | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
will go to him now. Let's start, first of all, Jeremy Browne, with | :33:02. | :33:11. | |
this issue of the leaked document, showing "very little valid evidence | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
that tactics work". I don't know about the leaked development, I | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
don't think that is central to the big choices the party is facing. | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
Nick Clegg will lay out the big choices tomorrow in his speech. As | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
Allegra just said, there are two essential messages that hang | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
together, one is a Deputy Prime Minister message, and the other is | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
a Liberal Democrat party leader message. The Deputy Prime Minister | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
message is the country needs to make the transition from austerity | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
to prosperity. That will require some difficult decisions of us all. | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
The Liberal Democrat leader message is the party needs to make the | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
journey from opposition to Government, protest to power. That | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
will require some tough decisions as well. Those two journeys are | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
interlinked and the suck he is of the Liberal Democrats and the | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
success of the country depends on them both working out what. I want | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
to go back to these reports, that came from. Don't worry about the | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
trivia, worry about the big central message. That's the big central | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
message. Is it trivial. I have just told you what the big...I Have just | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
told you what the strategy is, I have just told you what the | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
strategy is. Because something is leaked doesn't make it inherently | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
interesting. That is for me a side show. The party leader, the Deputy | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
Prime Minister of the country, is talking about what we need to do as | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
a country to ensure Britain's future prosperity and quality of | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
life and standard of living, and about how the Liberal Democrats can | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
make the journey from being a party of opposition for 75 years, to one | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
of the three governing options in this country for the next | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
generation those are really crucial messages right through and beyond | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
2015. As you said before. If your tactics are working and your | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
strategy is getting through to people. Why, on a central issue, | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
like universal welfare, very rich mentioners receiving benefits and | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
Winter Fuel Allowances and all the rest of it, why do we have that one | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
policy, one day, five different views from all the Lib Dem | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
ministers at the conference here. Different views from David Laws, | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
Vince Cable, Nick Clegg, and Mr Foster, you can't even centrally | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
agree on something like that? Government has made the policy | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
completely plea -- completely clear. There is a question for the future | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
if it is a good use of reforce relatively poor people in work to | :35:28. | :35:35. | |
have their taxes used to give a lot of money to people like Alan Sugar | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
and Peter Stringfellow. I would have thought, intelligent people, | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
watching this programme, would be interested in intelligent debate at | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
a party conference about whether poor people in work should | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
subsidise the lifestyle of Alan Sugar, that isn't an issue for the | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
Autumn Statement or budget. There is a big message here, when the | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
Government says we are all in it together, that is true. Maybe | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
people think it is a Conservative slogan or they don't like the | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
slogan. The central truth of it remains, which is we are borrowing | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
as a country a billion pounds every three days. That is not sustainable. | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
If we are not make the journey from austerity to shared prosperity, we, | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
as a country, will have to face up to difficult but hard truths. And | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
he as a leader of a party right in the centre ground of politics will | :36:28. | :36:35. | |
be able to talk about that some. -- tomorrow. | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
Was the apology of Nick Clegg a success. I know you are hoping for | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
number 40 in the UK charts with a turn around of it. Was it a | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
constructive use of the message? There is a serious point here. We | :36:48. | :36:56. | |
are half way through the parliament, the question for the party is | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
whether we spend ages analysing decisions made in 2010 or go on for | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
2015. There are two groups of people, knows who won't give Nick | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
Clegg a hearing whatever he says. Those people will say they don't | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
like him or agree with what he's saying. There are other people out | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
there, those less likely to phone into talk shows and express their | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
views in vosive rus terms, they understand that Nick Clegg hadn't | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
been in Government and the party hadn't been in for many generations | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
and accept that it is a place to make mistakes in politics, and | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
accept that he made the mistake, and are willing to accept the | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
things he has done and give him a fair hearing tomorrow. As minister | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
for state for crime reduction, do you think when a police officer is | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
sworn at by a member of public, do you think that person should be | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
arrested? That is an artful way of asking yesterday another Andrew | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
Mitchell question, which has been a theme of the media through the | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
conference. I think the Prime Minister got it right when he said | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
that what Andrew Mitchell was reported as saying was wrong and | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
inappropriate, that's the point of view put by the Prime Minister, all | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
the people watching will agree with that. Does he have to say more to | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
explain himself, or has he done enough, according to you? I think | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
people watching the programme will agree that if what he is report to | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
have said is what he said, or anything approximating to that is | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
what he said, and of course, Andrew Mitchell denies that he said what | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
the police officer claimed he said. Well, that whole way of talking to | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
a person like a police officer is clearly an inappropriate way, let | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
alone a Government minister. I think for people to behave | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
generally, it is not a question of the law but a question of good | :38:49. | :38:57. | |
planners. Are you an image person or a word person, do you remember | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
voices from the radio or faces from the television, if you had had to | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
learn something off by heart, how would you do it. The science or art | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
of data visualisation, is the growing philosophy of how best to | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
project the material on to our brains when information is | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
screaming at us all the time. The most successful in their field will | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
be recognised at an award ceremony from London's ICA, we will hear | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
from two Evangelists in the field in a moment. Here is a little of | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
what we are talking about. The war is currently costing us �12 million | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
a day. That is the same cost as employing 100,000 nurses and | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
150,000 care workers. How did you feel about what you just heard from | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
Tony Benn, now let's hear it again with the right pictures. The war is | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
currently costing us over �12 mill kwhron a day. That is the same cost | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
-- �12 million day, that is the same cost as 100,000 nurses and | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
150,000 care worker. To theal cost of civilian Afghans dead, like the | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
cost of war is unknown, but cautious estimates exceed 40,000 | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
people. Did the visuals heighten the impact. The theory of data | :40:09. | :40:16. | |
visualisation, a sin they sees of story telling, regurpblg station | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
and design, hits different parts of the train, maybe more analytical. | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
Take this one, what American voters care about. You can click on | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
"climate change" and see how attitudes have changed year by year, | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
Democrat and Republican. Then click on terrorism instead and do it all | :40:34. | :40:44. | |
:40:44. | :40:45. | ||
again. The process makes you feel stimulated and informed, is it | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
meritricious. In the data bank of power plants and factories around | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
the world, 20 -times more complex than any previous virus code, it | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
had an array of capablities, the ability to turn up the pressure | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
among nuclear reactors or switch off oil pipeline, and they could | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
tell the system operators everything was normal. It looks | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
beautiful, but the visuals are just glorified subtitles, is data | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
visualisation truly a new art form, or the pop culture offspring of | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
real analysis. I'm joined by two data | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
visualisation specialists, the founder of Information Is Beautiful | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
awards, and Kenneth Neil Cukier, the data visualisation expert from | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
the Economist Magazine. Do you have a sense that we are taking more in, | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
or we are just taking it in a different way? It feels there is a | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
lot more data and information around. We are looking for some | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
kind of solution that allows us to gobble that information and | :41:48. | :41:57. | |
understand it on the fly. When we are moving fast. Data | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
visualisingation seems to be able to translate that understanding | :42:00. | :42:07. | |
quicker than text. Is it more polemic, sub blimal messages, the | :42:07. | :42:15. | |
way that used to -- subliminal information in a way it used to? | :42:15. | :42:22. | |
Probably not. The visualisation will have the same shortcomings as | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
words. You can do more with it than words and less than others. It is a | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
new medium, there is a Rennaissance going on of the new tools we have | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
to show highly quantitative information, to say it is more poll | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
lem kal, probably not. Let's look at a few examples, you have brought | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
in favourites, and the viewers will know it as what we call chart porn, | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
a way to get people to look at things they like looking at it. | :42:49. | :42:58. | |
What is this? It is Denmark looking at survey results about Islamic | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
head dress. The designer has done a pie chart and used the medium | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
itself to express it. It is the way of opening up the subject, and | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
stopping the enwit that we have when we look at it. You have the | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
equivalent of the bar chart on the headbands? It is using a different | :43:20. | :43:28. | |
approach to visualise that data. Has more impact and is more | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
memorable. Take us through the next one, the 999 calls? In New York | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
they have 311 for non-emergency phone calls, the municiple services, | :43:39. | :43:46. | |
this, going from left to right is the frequency of certain types of | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
calls in a period. The noise is the pink bar going through the middle. | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
You have dead animal removal, road kill, a big issue in New York. | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
Noisy neighbours, graffiti, and so on. Why is that more effective than | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
a bar chart that could show meet same thing? It is depicting it as a | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
landscape. You can roamit yourself and find your own connections, | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
explore patterns. It is also showing lots of variables all at | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
once. It is showing a vast and extraordinary amount of information, | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
that you can take in immediately. Imagine if you worked in public | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
serves and you wanted to bring those who are specialists to this | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
type of complaint with the complaint that was made. With lost | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
property you want it in the afternoon. You know that now | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
through this. With the dead animal removal, you want to do that | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
quickly, because it could be a source of health hazard. You would | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
know when to put the person there who would be able to interact with | :44:47. | :44:53. | |
the caller better to get emergency people to clean it up. Looking at | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
your examples, they pick out the US map and the states, using it to | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
very different effect. This was a mind-boggle when I saw it, I | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
couldn't get my head round it? Great, it was not so great it was a | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
mind boggle, but it is an interactive map, if you could mouse | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
over it you could see more data. Russia is where Texas is. The map | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
in the United States, in the form of the GDP of the country, that the | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
state corresponds to. Texas has $1 trillion in terms of wealth in | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
terms of the size of the economy. So has Russia, we put that there | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
together. Who knew that Italy, the bot of Europe, should have an | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
economy about the second or eighth largest in the world, also the size | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
of California, $2 trillion. Greece we think is basket case because of | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
the problems they face. Washington state is a small but important | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
economy in America. You have the same in population. They stay with | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
this map and it changes colour, talk us through now. Saudi Arabia | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
has the same number of people as Texas? That's right. 25 million | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
people in Saudi Arabia, it is one of the geopolitically strategic | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
countries in the world. Mexico may not be strategic, depending on | :46:11. | :46:18. | |
butter reet toes, but you can see that Texas punches above its weight | :46:18. | :46:26. | |
in terms of those 25 million people having a presance if it was its own | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
state. Poland has large state, so too California has a massive state | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
for America. It is a way of reconcept actualising the United | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
States, for many people it is breath taking that this one country, | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
without one country in the UN, has the heft that it does. Fascinating, | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
thank you very much. That is all we have time for in Newsnight tonight, | :46:47. | :46:57. | |
:46:57. | :47:21. | ||
Paul Mason is here tomorrow, from Paul Mason is here tomorrow, from | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
all of us, a very good night. The worst is nearly over, certainly | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
by Wednesday things looking better across the northern half of the UK, | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
in terms of the lack of rain out of the sky. Heavy showers further | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
south. A welcome return of sunshine in northern parts of England, | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
Northern Ireland and southern Scotland. One or two showers in | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
Northern Ireland, nothing like the intensity we have seen. Further | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
south a scattering of heavy showers, sunshine inbetween. Temperatures | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
into the mid-teens not feeling too bad. The south west of England, | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
South Wales, could be the focus of heavier downpour. Not the | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
widespread rain seen recently, the ground saturated, so more localised | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
problems maybe. For Northern Ireland it looks like staying dry, | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
temperatures around 14. A cool breeze flowing from the north. That | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
is the story across much of Scotlanded today. 1 degrees in | :48:13. | :48:23. | |
:48:23. | :48:26. | ||
Inverness, and glos co-a fairly ples -- 14 degrees in innerves, but | :48:26. | :48:32. |