Browse content similar to 25/09/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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building of the Olympic Park, now he has been put in charge of | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
another hugely costly bit of public spending. There is a new chairman's | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
weight on the dead man's handle at the HS2, but is the fate of the | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
train now passing from the realm of management to that of politics? The | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
chief executive of this massive project is with us. | :00:29. | :00:40. | |
We report on the persecution of Christians in Egypt, and one of the | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
first foreign journalists to enter the town liberated from Islamist | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
control. Too young to buy a drink and too | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
young to drive, yet Ed Miliband thinks they are quite old enough to | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
vote. Are 16-year-olds? I don't necessarily think 16-year-olds | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
should have a vote, simply because we are not taught enough about | :00:59. | :01:15. | |
politics. Lots more to come in the programme. HS2 the railway line | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
that has achieved the remarkable feat of being endlessly complained | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
about before it is built has a new boss. The new chairman is Sir David | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
hiinggin, a man who moves from one public sector birth as effortlessly | :01:30. | :01:37. | |
as a Bedouin travelling from oasis to oasis. In this case the oasis | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
could turn out to be a mirage. The high-speed line is looking | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
vulnerable. David Grossman explains why this is a new story rather than | :01:47. | :01:55. | |
one for the business pages. By now the mood music surrounding HS2 | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
should be something like this, calm, harmonious, efficiency. | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
Unfortunately it sounds more like this. (claanking noises) The | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
Government has struggled to keep this project sounding sweet amid | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
damaging reports and damaging headlines and defections from the | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
cause. Tonight the Department of Transport took decisive action, out | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
goes the chairman and in comes someone with Olympic experience. | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
Out goes the man with experience as an engine and CrossRail. But there | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
were doubts about him being an effective noise voice for HS2, his | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
were doubts about him being an replacement, Mr Higgins was the | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
chairman of the Olympic delivery authority. Personal lie I think the | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
case for HS -- personally I think the case for HS2 is pretty weak. He | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
has been uphill task, his background is with the Olympic | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
has been uphill task, his delivery authority, and Network | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
Rail, both difficult jobs. If anyone can do it he can do it. It | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
is the last throw of the dice. If he can't turn around public views | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
about HS2, I some what suspect the next Government will quietly drop | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
it in some way or another. One big problem is the cost. Recently | :03:11. | :03:20. | |
raised poun 10 billion to -- £10 billion to £42 billion, add in | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
theing stock, and it is £50 -- the rolling stock and it is £50 billion. | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
The public accounts committee of House of Commons have ridiculed the | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
business case produce. Sir David needs to make the case far more | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
robust. An updated business case is due in | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
weeks to answer criticisms made by others among those the National | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
Audit Office. Some say they are confident, but it is not too | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
dramatic to conclude if this business case isn't bulletproof, | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
watertight and utterly compelling, the whole project could be in | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
jeopardy. There needs to be a better case made for HS2. It needs | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
to shift on capacity, the public and politicians have to buy in to | :04:07. | :04:14. | |
it, and David Higgins is an advocate, but it needs to be | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
managed much better. The costs are not as high as people are saying, | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
there is no doubt that Whitehall and the Treasury in particular need | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
more confidence on how the project is managed. | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
Although Labour originally proposed. HS2, tfs the Conservatives that | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
leapt on it, as -- it was the Conservatives that lept on it, as a | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
way of not expanding Heathrow and positive messages on regeneration. | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
But there are signs of fracturing. On Monday Ed Balls made a marked | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
move away from the project. It is not just whether a new high-speed | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
line is a good idea or a bad idea, but whether it is the best way to | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
spend £50 billion for the further tour of our country. The politics | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
of this has evolved, it used to be broadly speaking north of England | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
in favour, south of England less keen. However, there has been a | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
growing realisation among some northern cities that once the new | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
line is built their regular train service will become some what less | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
regular. Added to that there are various academic studies that | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
suggest that the real economic benefits will go to the south and | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
not the north. For example, today at the Labour | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
Party Conference in a BBC Daily Politics survey on HS2, Lord | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
Prescott gave us his view. Why Politics survey on HS2, Lord | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
cancel it? Because it isn't going to do anything for the north. The | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
Government says it is still completely committed to the project. | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
But today conceded that the HS2 bill might not have cleared | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
parliament before the next election, which could make it a huge | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
political issue come polling day. If Labour were to scrap it, they | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
would have an extra £16 billion they could reassign to other | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
infrastructure projects in their manifesto. That may ultimately | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
prove an irresistable temptation. With us now is McAllister Munro, | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
chief executive of the H -- McAllisteren to Munro, chief | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
executive of the HS2 project. A bit of desperation to change chairman | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
like this? No I see it as confidence in the project, that we | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
will have the hybrid bill by the end of the year, and secondly that | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
we are seriously looking forward to the next stage of the project, the | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
build process and also moving forward into construction. Why has | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
your current chairman been replaced? Our current chairman has | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
done a fantastic job in getting us to this point, where we will be | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
ready to deposit the hybrid bill by the end of the year. That is a key | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
milestone, but we do then move on to a next phase. He has taken the | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
decision that now is a good point for him to stand down. I can't | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
think of a better possible successor to dough than Sir David - | :06:53. | :07:01. | |
- Doug than Sir David Higgins after the success of the Olympics. Moving | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
forward into now construction. When you say the new chairman's first | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
priority will be scrutinising costs, he's scrutinising fiction, isn't | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
he? I would expect him to be scrutinising costs. We have | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
obviously had a lost of debate about costs. You don't know what | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
they are? We would expect a new chairman to reassure himself on | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
costs. You don't know what the chairman to reassure himself on | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
final costs will be? We have made a thorough estimates of the costs and | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
final costs will be? We have made a looked at the various risks around | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
the costs, that is all allowed for in the contingency element, a large | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
part of the increase we have seen. We have looked again at the risks, | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
the Government has decided to set a budget that does cover the | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
foreseeable risks in the projbt. We know we can proceed -- project. We | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
know we can proceed with the cost envelope. Why is it then that so | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
many politicians have lost faith in you? We have still got strong | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
support among politicians. The Prime Minister is still very | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
strongly supportive, so the Chancellor, the Deputy Prime | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
Minister. If you actually listen to what Labour...This Was dreamed up | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
by Labour when in Government? And adopted by the coalition. And you | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
saw very clearly what happened this week when one person after another | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
in the Labour shadow team distanced themselves and said we're not going | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
to be behind this if the costs go any higher than they are now? I'm | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
not at all surprised they say that, we are not expecting the costs to | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
go higher. You probably weren't expecting them to go any higher | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
when you originally put in the wrong estimate? We have started | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
four-and-a-half years ago with a complete blank sheet with the | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
project. At an early stage there are obviously risks. As we have | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
gone forward we have done more work on the costs. We have a robust cost | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
estimate now. We have a more significant contingency allowance, | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
we are confident we can deliver within that. If you listen | :08:50. | :08:51. | |
carefully to what has been said within that. If you listen | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
this week, they are not actually saying they don't support high- | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
speed rail. They are saying it has to be value for money. They won't | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
speed rail. They are saying it has support it beyond £50 billion? We | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
are determined to deliver it beyond that. I'm sure one of the first | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
things Sir David Higgins will want to do is look closely at the | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
project and how we make sure we do deliver it within the cost envelope. | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
Isn't the truth of the matter that you some how took it for granted | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
that you would always have Government and the political class | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
generally behind you, and therefore failed to make the business case | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
for HS2? We have always recognised this is bound to be a hugely | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
controversial project, it will always be a political issue. There | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
has been a lot of debate up until now. It has increased recently. But | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
it has always been a political project. We do recognise, we need | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
to make the case for strongly, I project. We do recognise, we need | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
think the case is compelling, when you really look at it. When you | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
look at the growth we have seen in the railways, a doubling in the | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
number of people using the railways over the last 15 years, that growth | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
continuing, there is no alternative that will actually provide the | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
capacity this country needs in the future. And I think when you look | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
at it carefully that is the conclusion you come to, of course | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
we will have faith in it. According to you, what would happen to the | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
country if it weren't built? If it is not built the railway will | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
become increasingly crowded, hard choices would have to be made about | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
what services run, where the trains stop, that will be a break on | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
economic growth. If you look at what the OECD say, the World | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
Economic Forum, they come to the conclusion that strong economists | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
need a good transport infrastructure. That includes the | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
railway structure. How big a setback will it be for Britain if | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
it weren't built? It would be serious, what would happen is it | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
would delay it. You can do incremental improvements keeping | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
you going for a few years, sooner or later you get to the point where | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
you can't keep adding to the existing railway. We are currently | :10:43. | :10:44. | |
you can't keep adding to the working on a railway built in | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
Victorian times T has done us a very good service, but we can't | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
live on that through the 21st century and beyond. At some point | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
we are going to have to invest in additional capacity. We need to | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
really do it now, so that we have the capacity there in the time that | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
we need it when we meet that capacity crunch in the middle of | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
the next decade. If this project gets can I Bosched, because people | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
-- kiboshed because people decide it is too expensive, how long would | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
it set us back, you have presumably done all the sums? We and the | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
Department of Network Rail, all forecasts, it will need this | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
capacity in the middle of the next decade. At some point? Even | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
planning now, with the process West need to go through, the period we | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
need for con-- we need to go through and the period for | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
construction, we need to plan for the middle of the decade. Planning | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
now we have the new capacity when we need it. You could do | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
incremental improvements, but sooner or later you have to make a | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
incremental improvements, but really big increase in capacity. | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
What is the feeling reason the organisation, you can sniff the | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
wind, there has been a change of mood about HS2, do you feel that it | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
is definitely going to happen? I'm very positive it will happen. I | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
think there will continue to be debate, and we have to continue to | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
show that we can deliver it for the cost. We have to continue to make | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
the case for the benefits. As I say when you look at the case carefully, | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
when you look at the alternatives, you believe that even if it got | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
delayed people would decide sooner or later this is actually the only | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
long-term solution. I don't think anyone would actually thank us in | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
10-20 years time and look back and say why didn't they actually invest | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
when they could. You are making the case but not talking like a woman | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
who is certain it will happen? I believe very strongly it is going | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
to happen, yes I absolutely do. That is why I'm doing the job. I'm | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
sure that is why Sir David Higgins, coming in as chairman, he believes, | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
he has made clear himself that he and his role in Network Rail does | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
he has made clear himself that he not believe we can continue just to | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
patch and mend the existing railway. That we do need to make this step | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
change and deliver some new capacity and new railway lines and | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
he's fully supportive of HS2 and sees that as a solution. | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
Thank you very much. Sir David Higgins's on Radio 4's Today | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
Programme tomorrow. The Archbishop of Canterbury has called the 80 | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
victims of the suicide bomb attack in Pakistan martyrs, since they | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
were targeted because of their beliefs. | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
They are not alone. Police in Egypt say they are pursuing Islamist | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
extremists who have incited attacks on Christian targets there. The | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
army has now retaken one town south of Cairo, Dalga, which had been | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
under Islamist control. Some Christians are still afraid to | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
return home. We have the first foreign reporter to enter the town | :13:29. | :13:37. | |
its recapture. The film contains graphic images of victims killed in | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
the vie lnt attacks. 1600 years of Christian history, reduced to a | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
blackened ruin. This is what's left of the monastery of the Virgin Mary | :13:47. | :13:56. | |
in St Abraham in Dalga, after a Muslim mob attacked it last month. | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
On the 14th of August. Came to the Muslim mob attacked it last month. | :13:59. | :14:10. | |
front door and they were calling for Jihad. They broke through the | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
main door and they entered the monastery. They went everywhere | :14:15. | :14:23. | |
here and they stole everything in the church and the building, and | :14:23. | :14:32. | |
also they when they finished stealing they burned the place. | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
Christians here say it was revenge for the Coptic church's support for | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
the overthrow of the Islamist Government. Payback for the killing | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
of hundreds of Islamists by the police. Relations between | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
Christians and Muslims here have often been uneasy, but the | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
upheavals of the last two years, both in Egypt and elsewhere in the | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
Middle East have now led to a much deeper fracturing of society, that | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
many feel won't easily be repaired. A horrifying video shows the body | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
of one Christian from Dalga, a local barber, killed and later | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
reported to be dragged through the streets behind a tractor. The | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
victim's cousin, a lawyer, has now fled to Cairo, fearing the same | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
fate. TRANSLATION: They attacked his | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
house, he tried to defend himself. They killed him inside the house. | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
They dragged his body out, they stole everything in his house and | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
mine. For two month after the police were chased out in early | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
July this dusty backwater between the Nile and the desert became an | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
independent outpost of Islamism, or simply anarchy. Christians like | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
this farm worker who fled with his family to live on a building site | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
on a nearby village describe the climate of intimidation where they | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
were robbed or forced to pay protection money. | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
TRANSLATION: There was this coffee shop that opened at 11.00, all the | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
thiefs and thugs went there and afterwards they roamed around, | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
opening whatever doors they could, or jumping over walls. If they | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
found any of your belongings they took them. Another refuge, also too | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
scared to show his face says the criminals have political backing, | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
he has no proof. TRANSLATION: The thugs in the town were supported by | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
the Muslim Brotherhood, they were giving weapons and money, because | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
it was in their interests to loot our houses and spread chaos. | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
Now order has been restored. Troops and police recaptured Dalga with | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
little resistance last week, making a series of arrests and | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
confiscating guns. Their job is not over yet, suddenly | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
there is an alert and we're off with police Special Forces on the | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
trail of more armed arsonists or looters. They stake out a house. | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
There is distant gunfire, and soon another suspect has been rounded up | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
for questioning. The state's finally stamped its authority on | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
for questioning. The state's this town, trying to prove there is | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
nowhere in Egypt where its writ does not run. But the crackdown may | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
simply provoke a violent insurgency that will rumble on for many years. | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
Today though it is mainly donkey carts that are rumbling on. One man | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
gives the four-fringeered salute that symbolised opposition to the | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
military leaders. You will find no Islamist representatives here, | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
those accused of inciting violence on Christians have fled or melted | :17:41. | :17:42. | |
back into the crowd. And prominent on Christians have fled or melted | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
Muslims here deny the Muslim Brotherhood or anyone else ordered | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
the attacks. TRANSLATION: They were thieves stealing for their own | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
benefits. They didn't have any other motive, no-one was supporting | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
them. TRANSLATION: Some mosques called for Jihad at the Muslim | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
Brotherhood protests in Cairo, because many people were killed | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
there. But thieves and thugs here took that as a license to go and | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
get what they wanted for themselves. So the message was misunderstood, | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
get what they wanted for themselves. we have always lived in harmony | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
with the Christians and we work together. | :18:23. | :18:31. | |
# Mor circumstance -- Morsi The Islamist challenge | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
terrifies many Christians, it hasn't been suppressed here but the | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
Brotherhood has been banned. A movement that was the legitimate | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
leaders of this country has been res duced to flash mobs in villages | :18:44. | :18:51. | |
like Dalga, but they turn out nightly at the provincialal | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
governor's house up the road they are taking noens chas. The security | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
is as tight as in the 1990s, when the Mubarak dictatorships was here. | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
I'm going to see the former police chief and now the governor, who | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
believes now as then Egypt is facing an international terrorist | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
conspiracy. We feel in Egypt there is this war against Egypt, the big | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
organisation, outside, the strategy comes from outside, using local | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
people by giving them money by giving them weapons. The fanatics | :19:25. | :19:33. | |
use this area because there is no education, there is no money, there | :19:33. | :19:44. | |
is no jobs. They try to push fanatic principles. They make big | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
problems between some of the Christians and some of the Muslims. | :19:48. | :19:56. | |
Christians, a third of the population in the province have | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
long lived side-by-side with Muslim neighbours. Poverty unites them, | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
illiteracy here is almost 50%. Even after weeks of living out of bags | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
and baskets, the Christians who fled Dalga are refusing to go home. | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
The police didn't protect them when the violence started here, and may | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
not protect them now from a further round of revenge. TRANSLATION: The | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
Government and the police are saying it is safe, but they will | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
not stay in Dalga forever, and the gangs are saying as soon as they | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
leave they will be retaliating. Back in Dalga, they say it will | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
take years to rebuild the monastery, one of the dozens of churches | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
attacked in Egypt in recent weeks. We had hoped to speak to the Muslim | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
Brotherhood, but we can't do so tonight. I'm joined instead from | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
Birmingham by my best who is chair of the United Cops in the UK. And | :20:54. | :21:02. | |
the political editor of Middle East Magazine. How frightened are | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
Christians in Egypt? Thank you Jeremy. The Christians had years of | :21:08. | :21:18. | |
threats and intimidation, coercion and killing which went unpunished | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
for years. There was a culture of impunity, and everyone is saying | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
that Egypt is an Islamic country and he's the leader of the Islamic | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
country. Since then the Islamists felt they had the upper hand. Then | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
Hosni Mubarak came, during his time he kept a tight rein on the | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
Islamists, but he overlooked their attacks on Christians. There is a | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
long history of fear and intimidation. Really there is a | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
culture of persecuting Christians by, I'm not saying by the whole of | :21:52. | :21:59. | |
the Muslim population, of course not. There is even a new | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
organisation in here in England which is the Egyptian Committee for | :22:05. | :22:14. | |
the Defence of the Secular State, including Muslims and Christians, | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
I'm part of it. I'm the deputy of the Union of the Coptic | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
Organisation in Europe. There is actually the fear from the | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
Organisation in Europe. There is Islamists coming from in societies | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
where there is poverty and where there is unrest as well. Let me | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
bring in my guest here, if you don't mind. Who do you think was | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
behind these attacks, or is behind these continuing attacks? It is | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
difficult when you collect evidence to pin it on an organisation. It is | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
always easier to stand in court for individuals, like we had with the | :22:54. | :23:03. | |
IRA and Sinn Fein. Circumstance standing evidence, the Muslim | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
Brotherhood have not -- circumstantial evidence, the Muslim | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
Brotherhood when they came out and they didn't renounce past | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
terrorists or give an instruction to their followers saying we | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
dislike that Morsi was overthrown, let's protest peacefully and hold a | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
vigil. It is, although there is no let's protest peacefully and hold a | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
hard evidence, but in one night you had hundreds of churches being | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
burned down and attacked. Sow the organisation is there. Do you think | :23:37. | :23:44. | |
looking back on it, it was wise for so many Coptic Christians in Egypt | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
to support what was effectively a military coup against the Muslim | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
Brotherhood? First of all this was not a military coup, this was a | :23:55. | :24:02. | |
response to the popular demand. I shouldn't have used the word Coup", | :24:02. | :24:09. | |
military intervention then, was it -- "coup", military intervention | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
military intervention then, was it then. Was it unwise? The Muslim | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
Brotherhood reduced the democracy to a pan tokcy. They used -- | :24:15. | :24:25. | |
panatocracy, they abused the ballot. Before that this was the last step | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
in democracy, before that there should be a culture of equality, | :24:29. | :24:37. | |
freedom, freedom of all freedom. Justice for all. No-one should be | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
persecuting minorities because they are peaceful. The Christians of | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
course they never started a fight or retaliated in a fight. They kept | :24:46. | :24:53. | |
losing their property and families. Let me interrupt you then and bring | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
in my guest. Can Egypt be surprised this is what has happened? It is | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
not a surprise, I mean there is no surprise. I am a bit surprised they | :25:03. | :25:11. | |
took it out on fellow Christians rather than...but then it goes into | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
the pattern of thinking if you read the literature of the Muslim | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
Brotherhood, or the meetings, tomorrow there is an interesting | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
piece in the Egyptian Independent of a meeting of the global | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
organisation that took part in Istanbul this week and in Lahore | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
and Pakistan. Part of the thinking is if they have enough strife and | :25:33. | :25:41. | |
sectarian conflict, then the world will pay attention and they hope | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
for intervention, not quite Libyan- style, something like that, to put | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
enough pressure on an American-led intervention to pressurise the | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
interim Government and reinstate Morsi. Its not a coherent thinking | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
but that is exchanged in meetings with the Muslim Brotherhood. | :26:01. | :26:09. | |
Thank you very much both of you. In all the noise and heat generated | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
by Ed Miliband's declaration yesterday that if he was Prime | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
Minister he would cap energy prices. One thing seems to have escaped | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
everybody's notice, he committed the party to giving the vote to 16- | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
year-olds, they are already getting it in the Scotland's independence | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
referendum, and in Argentina and Ecuador they can vote. Are | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
teenagers more mature there, and if not why hasn't it happened here | :26:34. | :26:41. | |
before. The first time British voters will have been to the polls | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
on their way to school. 1969 and the last major change to our voting | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
system. I shall certainly be voting Conservative. | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
Harold Wilson cut the voting age from 21 just in time for the | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
general election. Which he then went on to lose to Edward Heath. | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
They are not satisfied. Now the Labour Party wants to have another | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
pop at extending the franchise, buried in Ed Miliband's speech | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
yesterday, plans to give all 16- year-olds their turn at the ballot | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
box. Friends, friends, let's give a voice to these young people in our | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
party. Let's give a voice to these young people in our democracy. | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
Let's give the vote to 16 and 17- year-olds and make them part of our | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
democracy. We're always told today's teenagers | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
are an apolitical lot, distrustful of those suits in Westminster. So | :27:33. | :27:40. | |
Newsnight took our own totally unscientific focus group across the | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
road to the pool club. At 16 you can pay taxes, join the | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
armed force, get married and have sex, if you can do all of this at | :27:48. | :27:55. | |
16 why are you not vote? I don't necessarily think that 16-year-olds | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
should have a vote, because they are not taught enough about | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
politics. But this is a generation barely alive in the year 2000, what | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
do they know and what do they want from the Government. This is going | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
to be way more fun I promise than a game of pool. What we have here in | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
front of us is a very rough idea about the amount the Government | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
spends. What we want you to do is take these chips and work out if | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
this is the way as 16 and 17-year- olds you would like to see | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
Government money spent, or if there is a better way of spending | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
Government money. The only thing we can cut and agree on would be | :28:32. | :28:40. | |
benefits, don't you think so? No. No. Benefits affects thousands of | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
people. One quick question, how much benefits would we cut and | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
where to put it. Not enough, we have to contribute more to housing. | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
Pensions are you going to use the healthcare any way, pensioners are | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
more likely to be using the healthcare than us any way. Exactly. | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
If you work for 60 years in the plek sector and you work day in day | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
out, you shouldn't have that money cut, you are entitled to that | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
amount of money. Pensions have been one of the simple areas not cut, | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
and I'm actually, sorry, I'm fuming for the simple fact that pensions | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
do need to get some sort of cuts on it. OK, OK. You will have to all | :29:18. | :29:25. | |
stop talking now. Can I have a bit of quiet, your time is totally up. | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
You guys have been brilliant, massive disagreement, I think it is | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
fair to say between you all. We are going to have to take a vote on it | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
and do it democratically. Who thinks money can come out of the | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
health budget? No. That is, benefits who round here thinks | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
benefits could be cut. So all of you, does no-one think benefits | :29:47. | :29:55. | |
shutd be protected. -- should be protected? I do. That is enough? Is | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
that an agreement. Where is it going? Health and education. | :30:01. | :30:10. | |
Housing? National debt, some to pay back the national debt. There we go, | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
who thinks money could come out of education anyone think that? No way. | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
Who thinks money could come out of defence? Yes. Take it all. We need | :30:19. | :30:25. | |
one gun. Where does this go? Education, health, housing. The | :30:25. | :30:35. | |
final one, who round here thinks money could be cut out of pension, | :30:35. | :30:43. | |
four of you. No-one else? Five don't think it should be cut. What | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
is the deciding vote? Of course. Money is coming out of pensions, | :30:49. | :30:58. | |
only just. Not that much. Too much? That much. Less than that. | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
No, no, no. Take it back, take it back. This is coming out of your | :31:05. | :31:15. | |
gran and granddad's purse. Where is it going? More on housing and | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
health. That's fine. Education gets it and one payback for the national | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
debt. You have just solved our deficit | :31:23. | :31:30. | |
problem, well done guys! But it is one thing to get teenagers like | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
this interested in politics, another to get them to the ballot | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
box. They might be angry, they might be passionate, but that | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
doesn't mean that given the chance they would bother to vote. Now to | :31:40. | :31:47. | |
the best known female architect in the world, in a traditionally male- | :31:47. | :31:55. | |
dominated profession, Zaha Hadid stands out. She designed the | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
Aquatic Centre for the Olympics. Her buildings are mainly abroad | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
which tells us something about Britain. Her first in central | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
London opened today a small yet remarkable addition to a Napoleonic | :32:06. | :32:13. | |
addition to the Serpentine. I guess it is a reasonable punt that it | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
would gave Prince Charles nightmares. I went to see her | :32:18. | :32:29. | |
latest creation this afternoon. There is no mistaking her buildings. | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
They are structures which sometimes hardly seem like structures at all. | :32:34. | :32:42. | |
My early work was influenced by the Russian avant-garde, the residue of | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
that work was how to liberate ourselves from certain things to do | :32:46. | :33:01. | |
with gravity. As an architect you have to have | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
with gravity. some idea about structure. The cafe | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
at the Serpentine Calgary is tiny in comparison with some other build | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
-- gall gree, is tiny -- gallery, is tiny compared to her buildings, | :33:15. | :33:21. | |
but it is definitely her's? What will people say about the gallery? | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
I don't know, I think it is very important to invest in the public | :33:24. | :33:34. | |
domain. For people to enjoy t it is nice to be in the park with | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
transparency with a light roof. I thought it was extraordinary. I'med | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
glad. Do you think in this country we have become more sophisticated | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
about architecture? I think there is more sophisticated opinions | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
about architecture, but I don't think the buildings are more | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
sophisticated. There are some. There are at least, there are some | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
towers you know, some high rise which you know 20 years ago it | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
would have been impossible. And so maybe that will, that investment | :34:05. | :34:12. | |
would allow for new models to be developed. But it is interesting | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
isn't it the way in which Prince Charles, for example, can tap into | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
what he knows to be an instinctive feeling among very many people in | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
the street that oh modern architecture, it is horrible? I | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
don't think people in the street feel that way. I think that the | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
modernity, and the modernism they know is based on what they have | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
here, which was never a great example. There is some good | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
buildings done by Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, others what I call | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
high-tech of that period very important buildings. Michael | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
Hopkins, people like that. I think that they respond to these | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
buildings which were done post-war, very quickly, social housing, which | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
was done you know not forgetting that time there were slum, this | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
there were people whose houses were bomb, they had to build quite fast | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
and they responded in that way. This is your first building in | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
central London? It is. You had this reputation for years and years for | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
designing buildings that weren't built. What was that like? It was | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
really not very nice. Because I always thought they were in the | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
realm of possibility. I think that is one of the reasons I persevered | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
and the people with me in the office obviously had amazing belief | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
toe stick it out. Because it was very hard times. In the 1990s Zaha | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
Hadid won the commission to design the Cardiff Bay Opera House, but | :35:47. | :35:54. | |
local politicians clocked it amid a predictable chorus from media | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
yahoos that her work was elitist. That was very bad. You know I have | :35:59. | :36:07. | |
to think about these things in a positive way. There was nothing | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
positive about it. The only positive thing about it is it made | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
people, who didn't know me or my work have an opinion. Good or bad. | :36:14. | :36:21. | |
And enormous support. People in the street, I mean you know, I still | :36:21. | :36:27. | |
have people coming to me in restaurants saying, that was a | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
terrible moment. If they are Welsh they are always apologising. One of | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
her more controversial projects opened this month in Azerbaijan. | :36:34. | :36:43. | |
The Haydar Cultural Centre is a remarkable build, but it is | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
dedicated to the personality cult of the autocrat who turned the | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
country into a family business. Building or designing buildings | :36:51. | :36:58. | |
which glorify regimes which are unsympathetic, the famous one is | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
the Cultural Centre in Baku, which glorfies a tyrant? It is a cultural | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
centre and open to the public, you know, people name libraries after | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
centre and open to the public, you American Presidents. You are not | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
compare? Not comparing them but I just think that, I think you have | :37:18. | :37:26. | |
to be very strategic about whether you deprive the public as well from | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
the public domain or you know, I'm not doing a private house for | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
everybody, I'm doing a public building with a concert hall or | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
library, museum. But it is in honour of a man with the most | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
atrocious human rights record? With his name, yes. I can't change that. | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
You could choose not to build it? Well if it was a private house | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
somewhere like that it is a problem. But I will choose for example I | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
think it is more contentious to But I will choose for example I | :37:58. | :38:12. | |
build a prison anywhere. I was reading about Shelter to | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
build nice housing, good work space. Good public buildings, because I | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
build nice housing, good work space. think that not everybody in the | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
world has the privilege of travelling and seeing extraordinary | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
things and I think it is very important to make things like that | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
and more immediately in their domain. Do you think as a nation we | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
are more receptive to that idea now than we used to be? I don't think | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
so. You don't? No. I think that the majority of work in the UK is | :38:40. | :38:47. | |
corporate. And it is very bad, America was build on amazing | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
corporate buildings. Office towers in New York and Chicago. So you can | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
do great things here as well. And housing, that dilemma is different. | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
You are relying on your no-how of the client, the developer, it has a | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
-- know-how of the client, the developer, it has a different | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
-- know-how of the client, the dynamic. It is a jolly building, | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
you should go. The United States has won the America's Cup, the | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
competition for one of the very oldest sporting trophies burst into | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
life yesterday as the United States team came storming back after a | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
series of defeats in which the New Zealanders had made their catamaran | :39:24. | :39:31. | |
look like a Lyle low with a serious -- lilo with a serious puncture. | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
This sort of racing is like tearing up £50 notes while standing fully | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
clothed under a full shower. Our reporter who has the slob's job of | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
writing what he has been watching on the telly with those in the | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
Guardian, shares it interest, he will explain why. Remember him? | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
Four-times Olympic Chancellor I don't know, Ben Ainslie, Sir Ben | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
Ainslie. Done it all, knighted by the age of 36, probably smoking his | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
pipe and telling stories by the fire now, right? Wrong. He has been | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
involved in one of the most remarkable sporting turn arounds | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
since Liverpool won the Champions League in 2005. Nine days ago or | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
kal team USA were 7-1 down to League in 2005. Nine days ago or | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
Emirates team New Zealand. The Kiwis needed to win one more race | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
and they would go home with the America's Cup, the biggest prize in | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
sail. Enter our Ben, brought in by the or kal team as tactition. -- | :40:35. | :40:47. | |
They found another gear, outwigt the Kiwis and beating the Kiwis. It | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
is a game of chess on a boat, and the Kiwis and beating the Kiwis. It | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
Ben has learned how to be a grand chess master. He has an uncanny | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
ability to look at the racecourse and opposition and know how to put | :41:02. | :41:10. | |
them away. The America's Cup hasn't always been like this. It started | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
in 1851 as a race around the Isle of Wight. Since when it hasn't | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
bothered the public conscience too much, an alleged activity for toffs | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
with an awful lot of money. Too often it was about bending the | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
rules than the wave, when it made it out of the courtroom and on to | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
the waves it was slow and boring and no-one had a clue what was | :41:32. | :41:38. | |
going on. It is still about rich men indulging in their hoby, a | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
campaign is upwards of $100 million. But it has been good to watch. Men | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
in helmets drive catamarans with foils, flying above the water on a | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
racecourse at above 50 miles an hour. That is very, very fast for a | :41:54. | :42:02. | |
sailing boat. Now the boats are equallys, the race is tight and | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
short, and the setting, San Francisco bay is spectacular. For | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
the first time ever sailing is a spectacular sport. Formula One but | :42:13. | :42:20. | |
wet? Maybe. Joining us now is the BB cl.'s California correspond -- | :42:20. | :42:28. | |
BBC's California correspondent, was it exciting? I'm not a man normally | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
watching a lot of yacht racing, but the fact it is right here in the | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
bay, the speed of the boats, the way they lift up in the hydrofoils | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
and going incredible speeds, 45 miles an hour plus. Very close | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
racing, all the reasons explain that, it is normally out to sea, | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
the boats have cameras all over them, TV has been involved. You can | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
hear the yachtsmen talking to each other about tactic, here Ben | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
Ainslie working with the skipper of the team USA, to talk about the | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
race and how it will go well for them. We are waiting for Team USA | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
to arrive and Team New Zealand is here already. The presentation will | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
be made in the next few minutes. Ben Ainslie took a job as tactition, | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
I have forgotten his title. How much credit is he being given for | :43:24. | :43:32. | |
the win? He has been given a lot of credit but not as much as the Brits | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
want to give him. They did a lot of tweaks to the boat, they made a | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
clear decision they were going to change strategy, that is when they | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
brought Ben Ainslie in. He was a skipper on the second boat, he was | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
here basically to race, to train, to get them up to speed. He was | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
never expected actually race on the yacht itself. Bringing him in was | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
like having three quarter back, yacht itself. Bringing him in was | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
they said, on the team. Three skippers, very experienced guys all | :43:58. | :43:59. | |
working to the. That is what a lot skippers, very experienced guys all | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
of people are saying made a big difference. Wait that they build up | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
their speed, get -- the way that they built up their speed, getting | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
faster and faster. It is an amazing win, everyone was writing off the | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
US, but you have to feel for the Kiwis, so close but so far. | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
Thank you,en joy the celebrations. Some of tomorrow morning's front | :44:21. | :44:22. | |
pages now. For the past two years a group of | :44:22. | :45:22. | |
20 photographers have tried to capture the most spectacular images | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
of British wildlife, here is some of what they managed to get, good | :45:26. | :45:27. | |
night. | :45:27. | :45:28. |