14/11/2013 Newsnight

Donovan. See you tomorrow. Good night!

Donovan. See you tomorrow. Good Scissors and Jodie Penger and Jason

Donovan. See you week. I really think it is important

we get out and meet the community. I will speak to the police saying ?100

million has been spent to make the police less effective. The climax of

Borgen begins and I have an audience with the statistics minister. It is

rare in a sense that you have to be this icon and perfect and morally

above everybody else. A special report on the former child soldiers

of Columbia, struggling to deal with their past.

He is one of the world's greatest living adventurers, who has

repeatedly faced death and temperatures as low as minus 80, now

Sir Ranulph Fiennes has written his story.

Good evening, it was heralded as the biggest change to policing since

1829, one year on since 41 Police Commissioners got their hands on

power, can you name your Police Commissioner, and have they made any

difference to the fight against crime? In comic book culture they

are public defenders, characters like Gotham City's commissioner GORD

-- Commissioner Gordan, but in in country it is hard to get people

excited about Police Commissioners, 15% people voted in the first

election. This might have been a exercise in democratic exercise, but

a year on we have Twitter rows, accusation claims and accusations of

Well, clearly you have highlighted trust after the Hillsborough tragedy

Well, clearly you have highlighted two important points there. When

voters look at it and had the opportunity to kick me out, which

they didn't have when I was chairman of the Police Authority. I think

they will realise it was a shortlisting by the chief executive,

and whilst I know him's one of the greatest deputies I could have. He's

still a friend of yours, is it right to appoint friends as positions of

deputies? I don't believe it is wrong to discriminate against

someone just because you know them. There is also an on going row over

the Andrew Mitchell pleggate affair. The commissioner for Warwickshire

has been heavily criticised by politicians who said he rushed to

the defence of the police in that case. That was strongly denied in a

Newsnight interview. Is it not the case that the first report, sorry,

concluded there was a case to answer and the second one didn't. That is

correct, I didn't know that until today. Is it not also the case...

You didn't know that until today? Correct. When did you first become

aware of it? Lunchtime today. What were you doing defending your Chief

Constable then, you didn't know what was going on? That is again, I think

a bit of an oversimplification. And there have been a regular series of

gaffes in the papers, like the commissioner from Middlesborough who

had his mobile phone stolen from his pocket just before a meeting on

retail crime. And more seriously the resignation of Paris Brown as a

youth crime commissioner in Kent after a series of her offensive

Twitter messages were published. The reason I wanted a youth commissioner

is still there, we need this connection with young people.

Sometimes things don't go according to plan. I'm interviewing next week

for her replacement and I will have somebody in post by Christmas. There

is a real need for this, that young person will be very, very well known

in the county. Did make you look like an amateur, didn't it? I was

not an amateur, it was unfortunate. The vetting process she went through

was the same vetting process that every single police officer goes

through. Just unfortunate. Ministers though claim a change like this was

never going to be straight forward. It will, they say, take until the

next set of elections in 2016 before the public really starts to see the

full picture. I'm joined now by two Police Commissioners, Kevin Hurley

from Surrey, and Jones from the -- Bob Jones who joins us from the West

Midlands. You have done your own report card in the last year, what

you think has been happening in England and Wales, and the scores

are abysmal. Reducing crime three out of ten, public confidence, two

out of ten, community safety funding three out of ten. It is

jaw-droppingly abysmal? I think your previous report would reflect that

sort of score from the general public. I think just in terms of the

Home Secretary's judgment that it is all about reducing crime, since

April, when the budgets and plans of the PCCs have come into place, we

have seen three decades of ever-decreasing crime grind to a

halt. And more police areas are showing an increase in crime since

April. You have done your own survey, I presume you wouldn't put

yourself out of line with these scores, why not just quit? I think

this is a really important job to hold the police to account. It is

not working? I don't think it is. I think it is better to have a bridge

than a rope to cross a river. People like me make sure we don't drive a

car across the rope ladder. If you don't think it is working or giving

the public value for money or reducing crime or any of these

things, why not hand back the bulk of your salary this year? I'm doing

my best to mitigate the impact. I believe I am proving effective in

stopping some of the damaging elements of the model. This morning

I was awarded the first transparency award, which indicated I was doing

the best to be open of any PCC in the country. And that's because I

know the risks and I'm avoiding the risks. That was Bob Jones, trashing

people like you? Bob's views are his views, this role is about much more

than overseeing the police, it is about the crime bit. But nobody

knows who you guys are? That is not true, certainly not in my area. What

it is about is the crime bit is looking after Vic TRIEMs -- victim,

making sure the Crown Prosecution Service and the court service and

Borough Councils all work to the same agenda, dealing with crime and

antisocial behaviour and giving victims a better service. Look at

this on Bob Jones's report, public confidence two out of ten with a

record low turnout at the election, record levels of hostile publicity

and record numbers of investigations to PCC, clashes between police

constables and PCC. There is no evidence it has led to more

confidence or better governance in policing. He as not talking about

himself but it is a pretty damning report. He is entitled to his view,

but this is early days. The key part of the role is making sure victims

get looked after by the other people who have a role to play. Not just

the police. What we have is a new dog on the block and they are

starting to bark and cut into the Crown Prosecution Service, the

courts systems and borough and District Councils and say we are

here to look after the public, let's do it together. It is not just the

police's job. You are a new dog on the block, but aren't you just

barking a bit louder what are you doing by way of the Probation

Service probably being outsourced, Victim Support, do you support all

this stuff? My position at the moment, I'm chairing on behalf of

the police and crime commissioners. The way forward on victims I

personally don't think what the Victim Support service do is broken.

And so we're taking a very careful approach to look after victims. Bob

Jones, you are meant to be acting on the public's behalf, let's just take

plebgate, you came straight out of the traps and defended the police

officers rather than standing out and saying I'm here on behalf of the

public. Therefore, do people really think that you are independent and

acting in their interests when clearly that was wrong? I think the

possibly one saving grace of police and KROIM commissioners,

particularly my -- and crime commissioners, particularly my

colleagues in West Mercia is they haven't engaged in political

grandstanding but they have gone for justice and what is right. Do you

regret coming out and defending the officers? The take was on the IPCC,

I would have thought it is fairly obvious they have made mistakes

throughout. They should have independently managed the

investigation, they clearly didn't supervise the investigation

correctly, they have been forced to actually reverse all their decisions

and actually go back to having that independent management. It did sound

as if you were defending the officers? I'm defending the process.

There needs to be fair due process, whether it is a police officer,

cabinet member, or a member of the public, they need to be treated

fairly and properly, the IPCC let us down on that basis. Isn't this the

problem, actually the public doesn't actually know whose side you guys

are on? The side we're all on, I would argue, is the side of the

public. We are here to hear what is important to the public, and then

make sure not only the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, and the

court service, and dare I say the magistrates and judiciary, listen to

the public. They want people to deal with antisocial elements, thieves,

yobs and drug dealers. You are an ex-police officer, doesn't that put

you on the side of the police officers? I'm a politician not a

police officer. You were a police officer? I will be blunt i

understand their business, they can't have me over should they

choose to do so. If you gave the PCC such a bad report card nexty, will

you stop before the end of your term, Bob Jones, and throw in the

towel? If I could make way for somebody who would do a better job I

would do. I haven't seen anyone who fits the bill yet. Because I'm aware

of the risks I'm avoiding the pothole, I see myself like a ship, I

don't believe there aren't any iceberg, I'm plotting a course to

avoid the icebergs. There may be a pirate after new a moment! Coming

up. I thought of a powerful person, leading a big ship. When I got to

that stage where they are really, really powerful, I thought the

gender wasn't very important. That in a moment, but first the Iraq

inquiry, chaired by Sir John Chilcot is running just a bit late. We were

told to expect the verdict last year, but nothing happened. Then the

publication date shifted to the middle of thissy, but that too

passed, without a word from Sir John. The latest date for our

diaries is some time in the early part of 2014, but a stand-off

between Chilcot and the cabinet secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, means

we can expect even further delay. The row centres on the failure to

agree the publication of documents including personal correspondence,

between Tony Blair and George W Bush, so will Chilcot ever see the

light of day. Here is our diplomatic editor.

It has been going for four-and-a-half years. And was meant

to finish three years ago. Central to the Iraq inquiry is the

role of Tony Blair and his decision to join America's President Bush in

attacking Iraq. What I was saying to President Bush was very clear and

simple, you c count on us, we will be with you in tackling this, but

here are the difficulties. be with you in tackling this, but

was having to persuade him to take a view radically different from those

in his administration. What I was saying to him is I will be with you

in handling it this way. I'm not going to push you down this path and

then back out when it gets too hot politically, because it is going to

get hot politically. For me very, very much so. This is how it was

meant to work, in October the inquiry sent letters to those who

might be criticised telling them to expect imminently the details of

possible channels. The letters containing the criticisms were

drafted and should have been sent by now. The process called

Maxwellisation, allows people to respond to the inquiry and was

supposed to be nearly complete. The hope in Whitehall was that the

finished report would be ready by February. But now that won't happen

because the inquiry in the Cabinet Office cannot agree on the release

of some secret papers. Writing to the Prime Minister ten

days ago, the inquiry chairman reiterated the need to release

details of: David Cameron says he will soon

decide whether any more material can be declassified for the Iraq

inquiry. The word on the street in Whitehall is while there might be

some room for compromise over the cabinet minutes, the cabinet

secretary is determined that the Prime Minister should hold firm on

the communications between previous prime ministers and President Bush

in the United States including those private notes written to President

Bush by Tony Blair. Adding fuel to the fire, the former

Foreign Secretary, Lord Owen this week wrote to Mr Cameron suggesting

the cabinet secretary, Jeremy Heywood, was not the right man to

ajudicate this issue, as he had been running Tony Blair's office at the

time of the Iraq War. I will be speaking to Lord Owen in just a

moment, but Mark is here. Is it possible that if John Chilcot does

not get a satisfactory resolution to this he won't deliver a report? It

is possible. I'm not sure it is likely. We have been building to

this crisis, and we have now entered the really serious crisis of this

process. For three years he has been trying to get this material

declassified for use in his report. The people on the inquiry have seen

it, it is a question of whether they can make it public. And he hasn't

got what he wants and he has clearly decided to draw a line in the sand

here, from the other side of the equation, David Cameron has to make

the judgment. How far will he be swayed by the various considerations

we don't know. We do know that Tony Blair, as so often in this is

central. He has been making it clear how damaging he thinks it would be

for prime ministers in the future if those things... Not perhaps his own

reputation, who knows He has made that clear, there are all sorts of

rumours going on about the lengths he would go to. His office denied

suggestions that he might take legal action to stop the cabinet secretary

going ahead and making public those communications which he, as we heard

there, he considers to be private we don't think necessarily Gordon Brown

shares that that view. This comes down to the Prime Minister right to

secret communication with other leaders. David Owen, Lord Owen is in

our studio from minute NAP lisence where he joins us -- minute AP

lisence, from where he joins us. What do you make of what Mark is

saying about what may happen. It is unlikely that Sir John Chilcot will

not report, but it is possible without satisfaction and resolution

in this there cannot be a complete report. It is very important -- It

is very important the Chilcot committee are not rolled over in

this. What are we discussing, a war that took place which we now have

pretty clear evidence was done in defiance of a great deal of

professional advice. That parliament was lied to and the intelligence

which was quoted to parliament was justified by the Prime Minister in

words which were not the same as were in the reports. In particular

his forward, which was criticised by the chairman of the Chilcot Inquiry

and another senior diplomat on the inquiry, was misleading parliament.

Disingenious was how one cabinet secretary described the Prime

Minister's presentation of the intelligence. This is not a minor

matter, it is a very serious matter. To whom does it fault to sort this

out? I gather it is the cabinet secretary. They are claiming, the

report said it was David Cameron. It is very difficult for David Cameron,

a Prime Minister from a different political party to make that

judgment. And that's why I suggested it should be decided by the Lord

Chancellor, who does actually make these decisions about after 30 years

where the documents should be going. This inquiry was set up with the

full knowledge that the decisions were being taken by President Bush

and by our Prime Minister and that which Tony Blair wrote to the

President Bush was writing as an official document as Prime Minister.

Maybe confidential. Just to interrupt you there, David Cameron

may be mindful of the privacy, accorded to correspondence, between

prime ministers and other leaders, you know the leader of the United

States, otherwise how can there ever be these conversations. Churchill?

It is nothing to do with this, Churchill was actually criticised

during the inquiry that took place during the First World War, because

of the fiasco. The Iraq inquiry is about a fiasco, lo of British life

with very little purpose, we are seeing that every day in a situation

in the Middle East and affecting Iraq, but above all a very serious

question, was parliament lied to or not? Was this a case of contempt of

parliament? These are not minor issues. If Tony Blair manages to

keep these letters confidential, what will the impact of this be? I

wonder will you always be happy to release any correspondence that you

had in your time in office, should it all be public? No I don't believe

it should. Normally it is covered by, what we now have is the 20-year

rule. Either something has gone very seriously wrong, and like going to

war, then you have to have special measures. So an inquiry was set up

of all Privy Council LORs, those -- Privy Councillors, those COMBRIEF

Councillors have systems set up to show what they were doing as private

citizens. Tony Blair's view is of secondary importance. You seem to be

suggesting that Jeremy Heywood is compromised on this? Of course, he

was his private secretary during the time of 1993 to this serious period.

Of course we can't publish what President Bush said in reply. If the

Americans insist that is top secret that has to be kept secret. We can't

breach the secrecy of another head of Government. But our head of

Government is being held accountable. It is a largely about

Tony Blair. Are we going to allow Tony Blair to veto evidence which

may be critical. Are you suggesting it was integrity a question of

integrity? No I don't believe it is possible for somebody, I think he

should recues himself, he was involved in that in Number Ten

during this period. I'm sure he's a capable cabinet secretary and he

should be invited to make inquiries in every other area bar this

particular one. It was an unlikely massive hit. A political drama about

the intricacies of coalition politics. But Danish television's

Borgen was so much more than that. The first two years -- series were

watched in many countries. Brigitte Nyborg takes credit for that. The

public and private life of a conflicted woman gripped audiences.

The third and final series begins on BBC Four. I went to Copenhagen to

interview Sidse Babett Knudsen, who we all know as the statistics

minister. How did the Danish parliament provide the setting for

this series. The cameras go beyond the intrigue and plotting to show

the damage of the domestic lives of those running the country.

SGLIECHLT When I met Sidse Babett Knudsen, she

told me how her character has changed since we last met her. First

of all it has been two-and-a-half years since we left her at the end

of season two and she has gone out of politics. That is the big thing.

She has got into what do you call it, she's on boards, she's written a

book. She does lectures, so in the private sector. Living with her

children alone. She has become very rich. When you actually were looking

at the idea of a powerful female political character, did you have

anyone in mind? I thought about the powerful person, leading a big ship.

And I thought I was looking at examples, but just as much of women

leaders in all other sorts of areas. And then when I got to that stage

where they are really, really powerful I thought the gender wasn't

very important. Interesting though because there is a certain

steeliness you find? Politicians are rare in the sense that as a person

you have to be this icon and perfect and morally above everybody else,

which you wouldn't demand off somebody in charge of a corporation

or something else. As the character in the first two series, the writers

gave you more tears in the script than you actually shed in Borgen, we

don't see you crying that often. Was that y bringing your own sensibility

to the character that you thought she would have behaved in a certain

way and they thought differently? Absolutely, I thought that she's a

hero, and we have to believe that she is be in a room. There was, it

was the way, how she, emotionally reacted to decisions, for example,

very conscious, a bit overconscious is what I thought. That she felt bad

when she made a tough decision and regretted it and on behalf of

everyone and all that. You don't have time to feel or think like that

when you are up there. So, and also I thought then she's not going to

look responsible. So I think it was very important to me that she was

responsible for her actions, she took responsibility. And of course

the relationship with your then husband, created huge arguments in

households all over Britain, I can tell you, about whether he had been

an absolute or reneged on the deal. Did you tussle over that about how

to play that between you? Not between us, but in the writing room,

yeah. I thought YEP! Absolutely. The "wuss"! We did have this discussion

where I said I think it is very important for her if he's cheating

it is a big thing. Yeah but he was really sad, yeah, but it is a big

thing, you know. That is sort of a male-female thing whether a slip on

the side is important or not. There has been a study by Danish Business

Schools saying that Borgen itself has countered a kind of apathy in

politics. And actually it has been interesting about engaging people in

politics in Denmark again? The funny thing is when I was first told about

the project, I thought politics, the Danes won't like that. And then when

it became something real you suddenly had cab drivers talking

more about politics. I think it happened at the same time. There is

a lot to do with timing, a lot of lucky timing going on with the

series. It seems to be less cynical often than some of the dramas we

have in DRIN about women in power. -- in Britain about women in power.

There has to be an edge to it. It wasn't like the West Wing but it had

a more positive feel to it? In general the whole show is not very

cynical. I think that's a Danish thing. Do you think there is a

respect for politicians here? In Denmark like in the UK and Scotland

that people don't, they are angry with their politicians. The

confidence has, is not very big. Right now we have an election here

next week. What's most visible in the campaign is please vote. Did you

imagine the whole season would touch such a nerve, it was shown in more

than 70 countries, it is a massive hit. Within you set out did you

think you were making a drama for Denmark? Absolutely. It is the most

Danish thing that I have ever been in. It is about Danish politics

going on in Denmark. And it is in Danish, you know. Compared to

international politics we always think local politics is a bit, just

for us! So it was really, really amazing that anybody else would be

interested in it. And identify. And the final series of Borgen can be

seen on BBC Four on Saturday night. Don't miss it.

Columbia's Civil War has been raging for 50 years, the ideolgical

struggle has involved thousands of child soldiers. A year ago peace

talks began between the Government and the main guerrilla group, FARC.

Since then more and more child combatants have demobilised, handing

themselves over to the authorities. We have been to see some of these

child soldiers, I must warn you that some of them have very disturbing

tales to tell. Killing time in the Colombian jungle might look like any

young boy's dream. Here the undergrowth is lush, and there is no

shortage of sticks to fashion into guns. But these teenagers are

showing us what life was really like as child soldiers. Only months ago

they were fighting with armed rebel groups, against the Colombian

Government. Carl Lord Chief Justices now 16, was

a rebel commander with the armed group he fought for. We have had to

protect his identity, he has received death threats for speaking

out against former leaderss, now 16, was a rebel commander with the armed

group he fought for. We have had to protect his identity, he has

received death threats for speaking out against former leaders. Child

combatants like him are deserting rebels at an alarming rate, heading

for rehabilitation centres in the mountains. It is run by the very

people they have been fighting against, the Government. With a --

we are the first foreign journalists allowed in here. The children get to

stay here and play here until they trust authority again. Some of them

like Yolanda who is 16 have suffered unspeakable trauma. She was more

comfortable talking to her There is life after the guerrillas,

this woman spent three years as a child soldier, she was recruited by

the FARC when she was 12, she now lives with her two daughters and

younger sister. Some combatants were executed by

their own commanders, she told me how new recruits were forced to

watch. Children are still at risk of forced

recruitment, people are worried. Here in central Columbia it is said

the FARC lures children, handing out weapons, mobile phones and trainers.

In return the army hands out gifts and leads kids around town. Strange

as it seems this is the frontline in Columbia's conflict for children.

Both the military and the guerrilla groups want to win over the young of

this country. And persuade them not to fall into the hands of the other

side. ? This football match organised by

the army is meant to keep children out of trouble. The parents are

worried about more than the final score.

After years with the rebels it takes time to learn to trust others,

especially those in a position of authority. Nice to meet you. This is

where you live. Can I have a look? This is a charity-run rehabilitation

programme for those who don't want the Government's projection. --

protection. People like this girl who fought for the EPL, a small

left-wing group, he was made commander at 14.

The charity is sceptical of the Government's efforts to protect

former combatants. The Government denies the

allegations. Has the military ever had to use children, people under

18, teenagers, as a means to gather information as informants if you

like in rural communities? No. We don't use them, it is prohibited and

we have not only our legal framework in Columbia ow bee -- but our

internal regulation that prohibits using minors to any activities like

the ones you just mentioned. We have the collaboration and co-operation

of adults demobilised from the guerrilla groups, they have been

very effective in providing information to continue the strategy

against the FARC and the ELM. It is not known how many children are

still fighting for the guerrillas. Thousands have already demobilised,

adding to the pressure on the authorities. They are erasing the

nightmares of the real wars in Columbia's jungle, but it could take

many, many years. You can see a longer version of that report on Our

World at the weekend on BBC News channel. He's an explorer who has

been to hell and back. He has tested the limits of his endurance to the

maximum, and lost many fingers to frostbite. Sir Ranulph Fiennes has

led 30 expedition, and endured some of the coldest and most hostile

conditions in the planet in pursuit of discovery. His new book is titled

appropriately Cold. Cold, what does it feel like to be at minus 80? It

is a different feeling. The English language should have a new word for

it. You get very cold when you are in Wales, you can get hypothermia,

but it isn't the same permanent desire to get into a foetal

position. It makes you have very upset with the other person you

might be with if he, normally it is a, if he's slow that day, and you

are having to wait. You really get more unpleasant than you normally

are with other people when it is like that. It is something that most

people could never imagine. For you that endurance of the cold, do you

think it has to take a special, as I would say in thoughts "throawn"

character to do that? Not really. We choose people carefully. We like

people who are placid, not thick. That is good to know your te members

are not thick? They are ex-military which comes to the same sort of

thing. We don't want them to get very excited when things are going

well or down in the dumps when they are not. Is it an even temper? Yes.

But you have put yourself through hell, and on your level hand you

don't have the finished fingers any more. You had to actually medicate

yourself for that, you had to do some chopping yourself in the

fingers? That was back in the UK that was only because my late wife

said I was getting very irritable because touching the mummified

fingertips against anything was really painful. They don't amputate

properly until five months after the thing happens. So in order to stop

the pain I bought a Black Decker and microblade, my late wife brought

me cups of tea and it took two days to get through the thumb by turning

it around f it hurt or bled you moved the saw PURT away. That is one

extreme, in terms of the achievements you have had in your

expeditions, what has been the greatest one? The book goes back 300

years, it was mainly funnily enough the Brits who kept wanting to know

what the hell was north, where it was white and cold. They kept

sending ships up there, more than any other nation and they didn't

come back. Because they went up channels look ing for some

commercial route in what is Canada and the ice closed in on the ships

and they waited for summer, and they were there three or four years, they

related to cannibalism, and scurvy went through them. Yet it was the

Americans who claimed the North Pole and the Norwegians who claimed the

south pole and 60 years after Scott our group decided we would get our

own back and do the big polar expedition, which is to cross the

whole of the Arctic, Antarctic, 52,000 miles, the only people have

been around earth vertically and it took, we never flew one metre, it

took three years of permanent travel and that was one of the ition one

could say we were very relieved to succeed. Let me see your fingers,

how does that hand operate in cold now, what happens now? I have done

many expeditions with Dr Mike Stroud, we never used hand warmers

by-election the south pole one year, Mike got hypo othermia at 52 degrees

in the summertime. We never wore anything artificial. The idea being

why wouldn't you have charcoal warmers? You could say it was

cheating rather like us autoing wind as a means for pushing things along.

Unsupported it unsupported. At the end of the book you say, "what is

certain whether humans are involved or not is that global warming is a

growing reality, cold as we know it is slowly but surely on the way

out". That certainty about global warming, have you always had it

since you started? No, in Antarctica it is not evident. You have two

miles of ice sitting on 10,000 foot-high mountains. Even if the ice

is getting less you can't see it. But up in the Arctic in the early

1970s I designed sledges which might run into a bit of water so they

needed to be waterproof. Several years after that I was designing

canoes because there was more water than ice. Thank you very much. Now

the front pages. The Prince is a friend of yours, are

you going to wish him a happy birthday? A great patron.

We leave you tonight with a story of 54-year-old Jim, a homeless

alcoholic veteran with alcohol problems. He was given a makeover to

raise awareness of a homeless charity. The video of his

transformation has been viewed more than 30 million times on-line, and

raising ?30,000. Jim is attending AA now and turning his life around.