13/11/2013 Newsnight


The dark internet and what can be bought on it, the Syrians who have fled because of Al Qaeda rule, David Miliband and Christmas ads.

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On Newsnight tonight, the dark side of the internet. We visit some of


the sites where money can buy you anything. Guns, drugs, even an


assassination. We talk to the former Foreign Secretary, Ed Miliband about


disasters and the David Miliband and about disasters and the threat they


pose. Immediately at the same time after the threat of sanitation and


difficulties, there is an increased threat of violence against women, to


turn away from that would be wrong. The Syrians who have had to feed


their country not because of war, but because parts of it are now run


by Al-Qaeda. And can it really be worthwhile for


supermarkets and department stores to spend a fortune on Christmas


marketing like this. First tonight, who says the media


don't report good news? 177,000 more people have jobs now than was the


case three months ago. Employment is growing much faster than the Bank of


England predicted. The governor of the bank has said he doesn't expect


interest rates to rise until unemployment falls below 7%. But


that now looks as if it will happen much sooner than had been predicted.


As early as this time next year perhaps. Who dare raise interest


rates in the current climate. It doesn't seem like a good moment to


hold your breath. If you order chicken and chips at the new


low-opened franchise in Streatham Hill in south London, you will serve


by someone who has been through long-term unemployment. Before


opening in June the new owner faced difficulties in finding staff, he


went to the welfare-to-work firm A4e, which had no shortage of


willing friars. All of his new staff were long-term unemployed and some


hadn't worked for years. How long were you out of work for? About a


year. What was that like? Getting up in the day and nothing to do really.


What to do? There was only so many times can you apply for a job like


that. You go out and you look for work you get a bit disheartened and


you go out and the position is filled or not enough experience, or


whatever reason, it weren't nice, it was horrible. How about your income,


how has that changed? It is difficult, before you used to have a


budget of ?70 and now I have got much bigger budget, I find it really


quite difficult to know what to do with my money now. Save it? Save it


and that and go to the cinema and that, Christmas coming up everybody


will be very happy now, nice Christmas present each one. Youth


unemployment fell by 9,000 to 965,000 in the three months to the


end of September. While those without a job for more than a year


fell to 890,000, overall unemployment was down 48,000 over


three months and by more than a quarter of a million over a year.


That is the biggest annual drop since the 1990s, the rate is now


7.6%. Good news, you would have thought, and the Governor of the


Bank of England thinks so. For the first time in a long time you don't


have to be an optimist to see the glass is half full. The recovery has


finally taken hold. The governor's glass may be half full by the City's


is half empty, that is because Mark Carney has given forward guidance


and said as long as unemployment is above 7% interest rates won't rise.


The City has taken it the other way round saying if unemployment gets


below that interest rates will rise. In this way the City takes good


economic news, if it is too good in a very bad way. So when might rates


rise? In August Mark Carney didn't expect unemployment to get to 7% for


three years. Now the Bank of England forecast it is as likely as not to


hit 7% just a year from now. That's rattled the financial markets which


used to ignore unemployment numbers. Now they worry an early rate rise


will cause investors to sell bond, hitting the value of hundreds of


billions of investments. Who wants a Government bond paying tiny interest


rates when rates are about to go up. Bonds have been very strong for 15


years now, really on the back of having low interest rates for such a


long time. And that can come under pressure. The likelihood of an


earlier rate rise boosted the pound, but should make imports cheaper but


exports more expensive for foreign customers, the markets are we aried


about the recovery and share prices took a tumble. With 7,000 jobs


created in three months, the economy is heating up quickly. With the Bank


of England giving evens on a rate rise it is likely to be a year


before the general election. Not that it will bother Mark.


Here now is our guest, an external member of the Bank of England's


Monetary Policy Committee, and Gillian Tett from the Financial


Times. This is good news isn't it? It is pretty good news actually.


Tempered by some not quite so good news. We didn't really expect this


big fall in unemployment. That is good, but wages are the bad story.


You think it is pretty good news? I think it is good news, it does take


a chirpy north American to telling us all that the glass is half full


not half empty. We Brits are used to the half empty. It is certainly


encouraging. Is it sustainable, that is the big question? That is indeed


the big question for two reasons, firstly, the question everybody


should be asking is this increase in jobs and wealth actually leading to


a broad-base feel-food factor or is it concentrated in small niches of


the economy. Places like London are booming, if you get outside London


it is a different picture. Secondly, unfortunately the bank is in a trap


that it has indicated that interest rates may be going up much faster


than people expect? I was going to come to that in a second or two, do


you think it is sustainable? No I don't, if you think of the


components of growth. Nice for you to be cheerful? I will tell you the


truth. Components of growth are you need investment rising, that is not


happening, trade rising, that is not happening. Real wages aren't rising,


they are falling, and the only way we are getting consumers to spend is


by taking their savings, because they think house prices are going to


boom. So we have gone out of boom and bust, and we have come to a new


situation where we have a boom coming which eventually will end in


a bust. So the answer it is not sustainable. Especially if interest


rates were to rise. Let's engage with Gillian's point that she was


beginning to make there, which is what Mark Carney has said about


interest rates? I'm not as gloomy as David. But I do think the question


of interest rates is critical. We are starting to see house prices


rising fast, it is striking this is coming not after sharp house price


falls. In America you are seeing a rebound in housing prices but there


has been a very sharp downturn first. So the question of whether it


is sustainable in the housing market is a big one. Unfortunately the UK


is much more exposed to swings of interest rates in terms of mortgage


payments than other countries. So if interest rates do go up sooner than


people expect the impact could really be pretty nasty. He has boxed


himself in hasn't he? Both the Chancellor and the Governor of the


Bank of England are boxed in. We start from a position in the housing


market where house price-to-earnings ratios are about five, where at many


places in the past that is the peak where the thing bursts, this doesn't


look sustainable. Our problem is everybody has variable rate


mortgages. I came off the plane yesterday and there was an advert


saying you can get a mortgage rate base rate plus one. 49%, you take


the mortgage and the bank starts to raise rates, that kills house prices


people can't afford to pay their mortgages and that boom we have just


seen is not sustainable. The problem is that if, despite the fact that


people say interest rates are going to rise, if they rise they wipe out


so many people. Listeners to this programme could suddenly think what


would happen to my mortgage if interest rates went from a half per


cent to two to four. The problem the bank has unless we get sustained


growth they can't raise rates for a really long time. We should surely


accept, and lots of people said George Osborne would never pull this


sort of achievement off? I think that certainly George Osborne has


some reason to feel not just relieved but also pretty pleased


tonight. Whether you are going to argue whether that glass is half


full or empty, it is much better or fuller than we expected a year or


two ago. But unfortunately as David says the sustainability question is


key. And very key given the timing of the next election. I hope that


certainly this general rising in animal spirits starts to create more


incentives to invest, as David says, and actually get a more sustainable


pattern of growth, but it is still uncertain if we are going to see


anything that will last and see interest rates go up in the future.


Well, yes, in some sense we have had quite a fast lap. Unfortunately over


the last three years the UK was lapped three or four times by all


the other countries. So yes we have a small burst of growth, but


actually the level of output that we have is about 3% lower than it


should have been if we hadn't imposed this austerity. We start


from a level of recession or output which is the worst recession in 100


years, we still have to get two. 5% growth to get us back to the


starting level of output, we are 66 months in, if you can compare it to


the Great Depression. That was over in 48 months. So yes, we have a nice


little burst of growth, but we should really understand that the


economy is basically much lower than it should have been. What would you


do if you were Mark Carney now? I think he has done pretty well. He


has been probably quite lucky. He wasn't really going to be drawn on


the question of when rates were going to rise. He's going to follow


what the US has done and follow the data. He's not going to say to us on


the #rd 3rd of January 3015 he will change rates. He will say we will


watch how the economy is doing and then we will command to that. What


we are hearing is people interpreting what he says. We need


to watch the data, I suspect the data, this little blip may continue


for a while, in the end it doesn't look sustainable. One thing he has


created is this obsession with the unemployment rate. Nothing is


bulletproof, there are always big questions around labour market data,


but by folk cutsing so heavily on it is -- focussing so heavily on it is


he has indicated that the bank cares about the pat RN of growth and has a


conscious. But boxing yourself into one set of numbers means creating


this trap you are in today. If unemployment falls faster than


people expect, for reasons other than fundamental growth, shifts in


the labour market data and the hours people are working, the bank finds


itself in a position where people expect it to raise interest rates


faster than it wants to. You must come back on another morale-lowering


visit! The The British people have given ?13


million in under 24 hours to help the victims of the storm in the


Philippines. Some aid is beginning to reach survivors, those delivering


it have been astonished by the extent and severity of the damage


caused by the storm. The former Foreign Secretary and nearly leader


of the Labour Party, David Miliband left mainstream politics here to run


the International Rescue committee in New York. He was in London today


dealing with the violence against women occurring during humanitarian


crisis. I went to talk to him about that and talk about Sri Lanka,


despite its human rights record a visit.


David Miliband why is the tragedy in the Philippines any business of


ours? Our common ity is stirred when you see people in desperate


circumstances. Obviously the first response is for the Government of


the pill even if, but for the British and western charitable


response down the agencies has been born of common humanity. That is my


interest. The difference with previous ages is we can see it now.


Don't you think there is an argument now that says we have to learn to


harden our hearts because "acts of God" are happening? I think that a


hardening of heart is a miserable life. The essence of being a human


being is helping other human beings not that you stand and walk away. I


think there is a real issue in the world today. If you like it is a


sort of double pull that is going on. One pull is parts of the world


that are either undergoverned or suffering from lack of prop


governance. Not really thinking about the Philippines in that


circumstances, but in Syria, Somalia and elsewhere. It is problems that


seem unbelievably complex and insoluable, and on the other hand a


western world turning in on itself. That is a dangerous combination,


allied to a hardening of heart the world will become more unstable and


unequal. What is dangerous about it? About what? This insularity that is


taking place in the west and the growth of inEPT or incompetent or


absent governance? Precisely because we are a more connected world, there


is an instrumental and moral argument there. The polio outbreak


in Syria at the moment is not going to be confined within the governance


of Syria that it started in. You are here to take part in a conference on


proEKT itting girls -- protecting girls and women, a lot of people


will be surprised that such a conference is necessary in the


context of a Clamity that has taken place? I have learned this in my new


job, there are enDEMic violence against women in all societies. It


turns out there is a plague of violence against women in Emergency


Situations. Both those worn of conflict and Civil War but also


natural disaster, the evidence from Haiti, the Pakistani floods. From a


range of experience that we have, the Sierra Leone conflict, places


where the International Rescue committee has worked in. It has


booed two or three times in emergencies. A natural calamity can


unleash forces of bash BOURism latent in human society. What can an


aid agency do to restrain that? Let me give you a practical example,


women having torches so when they go to the toilet they are able to have


light around them, that is important. When our experience both


in refugee camps and outside them is those kinds of practical measures


that give a bit of power to women, can make a difference. It is also


extraordinary, even after a terrible act of sexual violence or other kind


of violence, being able to address the trauma that women have suffered


means that they might not be pregnant or becoming HIV-positive,


but also they can rebuild their lives. Both on the prevention and


treatment side. There is no easy answer, but you say what business is


it of aid agencies, the business is it is 52% of the population, they


are extra exposed in emergencies and we can make a difference. But you


have your work cut out there haven't you? The feeling when you see people


dying in the Philippines or going hungry or suffering in Syria or


wherever it is in the world, there is a natural fellow feeling, it is


there but for the grace of good go I. Very few people can imagine


perpetrating sexual violence in those circumstances? It is really


hard to come to terms with the fact that protecting people from sexual


violence is not a luxury in an emergency, it is a necessity. But


what we have learned over the years it is. The first priority in the


Philippines now is undoubtedly about water and sanitation and other


diseases. But immediately, at the same time, we know that there is an


increase threat of violence against women. To neglect that and to turn


our minds of eyes away from it, it would be wrong. If you were Prime


Minister or Foreign Secretary would you be going to the Commonwealth


conference in Sri Lanka? It is really hard for me, I have spoken up


very powerfully on this. I'm in a difficult position, and let me


explain it to you. We work with not just Governments around the world.


We have an office in STLI lank KA. -- Sri Lanka, we are trying to make


a difference across communal lines there. I do have very strong views


about the Sri Lanka issue. With the current position and the duty of


care I have to my own staff I have to be extremely careful about


becoming a commentator on political affairs. If people keep taking that


line and cop out, as it were, these Governments are immune? I think it


is a really powerful point that in the end the humanitarian world can


staunch the dying, but it takes politics to stop the killing. And


that's what we face in Syria, that is what we face in civil wars around


the world, and that is the fact of life. That is why politics remains,


has primacy in a lot of these societies. Equally the humanitarian


sector has shown how it can innovate and lead politics in various ways.


What you see in the Middle East at the moment is the humanitarian


catastrophe is actually affecting politics. The politics in Lebanon,


where one in four of the population is now a refugee, the politics in


Jordan where it is the equivalent of the whole of Poland moving to


America the refugee flow into Jordan. That is humanitarian need


changing local politic. It is another reason why we in the west


should be engaged. With one bound he was free! As we are on politics and


you still clearly have political instincts, let me ask you about the


Falkirk by-election inquiry? I can't get into the Falkirk by-election


inquiry Jeremy. You can't blame me for trying? I applaud you for


trying, I will tweet out you tried, as long as you tweet he resisted


temptation and didn't get into it. Why is it obvious you can't talk


about it? Because I'm the leader of a global NGO, not a member of


parliament, I'm a member of the Labour Party but one in a position


where I have to foreswear any comment on. That There was once a


New York cartoon showing a dog sitting up at a computer keyboard


and remarking smugly that no-one on the Internet knows you are a dog. It


seems nobody knows anything much, if you want to buy drugs, guns, fake


currency even a HITman you can do so, you just Need to know where to


go on the called dark net, covering your tracks. We have obtained a data


leak showing how fast the dark net is going. G. The FBI left us in no


doubt, shutting down the Silk Road was a big catch for the big guys. It


had allowed people to sell and buy almost all legal couldn't TRA band,


drugs and weapons - couldn't -- contraband, cloaked in the anonymity


of the Internet. As one dark net site gets illuminated and shut down,


others take its place, through a data leak, Newsnight has had a rare


glimpse of one of these operations and the speed at which it is


growing. There is such a customer demand for these types of sites,


taking one or a couple down will only mean that other sites of the


same kind are going to reassure very quickly. You can probably best think


of the dark web as a sort of rather dingey basement underneath the


familiar internet that we all know. Up there is google and Amazon and


Spotify and the BBC. Down here it is a rather murky anonymous world. Only


accessible through something called the Tor browser. Tor stands for the


The Onion Router, because the anonymity of users is safeguarded by


layers and layers of re-routing, like an onion peeling back the


layers ends in tears. It is used by anyone who would rather they didn't


identify themselves, from political activists to drug dealers. Messages


sent between buyers and sellers are automatically encrypted, and


customers are made with Bitcoin, an untraceable virtual currency.


Because neither side will run out to the police if they get ripped off,


the whole market place runs on establishing trustworthiness. And as


for users like Paul, not his real name, the advantages are clear. I


bought LSD and MDMA, ecstacy, essentially. Why would this be a


better way or more attractive for you than buying face-to-face? What


attracted me was the availability of certain drugs which I can't get from


street dealers. Certainly knowing if I went to buy the drugs I would get


what I paid for. It is off the street, you have no idea what you


are going to be buying. One of the sites to pick up activity from the


Silk Road is called Black Market Reloaded, we got hold of its user


database for from a month ago. It those over 330,000 individual


accounts, growing at 2,000 every day, set to hit the million mark by


May next year. This is just one of over a dozen dark net market places.


Those websites attract quite a lot of interest from customer, basically


because they provide a place to conduct the illegal activities in


the physical world. If you purchase drugs you won't really want to have


an interaction with a drug dealer. So those websites take the physical


interactions out of the equation. You click a few buttons on-line and


you get your illicit drugs shipped in the mail to you. That is actually


a very appealing proposition for a lot of customers. The vast majority


of these hundreds of thousands of buyers and sellers seem completely


untraceable. However, dark net analysts have managed to link a tiny


number of black market reloaded accounts with real world identities.


This is what the raw database looks like, once it has been knocked into


shape by data analysts at the BBC, it now looks like a spread sheet.


This reveals e-mail addresses that in a very few days have also been


used on social media sites. The first step to establishing a real


identity. There is a fisherman in California selling around a million


dollars worth of marijuana on the site each year. There is a man in St


Helen's who sold us three sets of credit card details that he says he


got through phishing scam, he also offered counterfeit currency. A man


in Norway claimed to provide links to provide access to child


pornography websites. It is human mistakes that led us to these


identities which are often the only way in for the police. The way that


law enforcement have potential ins is to masquerade as legitimate users


and to try to get various tools installed unbe knowns to the hosting


provider on to the server. By using those tools they can compromise and


find their way to the hosting provider and IP addresses. That is


pretty much what a hacker would try to do who was trying to take down a


big corporate website? It is that in reverse. As we have seen such


victories can be short lived, the triumph in which the FBI announced


the closure of Silk Road hasn't lasted long, in the past week it


went back on-line, mocking the police and showing a thousand drugs


listing. It seems until the demand disappears, neither will these


sites. Dave Kennedy is CEO of Trusted Sec, an information security


company and computer hacker himself. This is a race between law


enforcement and the underworld who is winning? The expansiveness of the


dark net and how they transfer information back and forth, it is


hard for law enforcement to catch up on. If you look how Silk Road was


taken down, it emboldened the dark net side of the house to expand


larger, they caught him on his public life not on what was


encrypted and secure. It is hard for law enforcement to track the folks


and get hold of their on-line identities TRAK it back to the


original person. Silk Road attracted a certain amount of attention, but


according to the piece there it was only a small part of the market?


That's right, it pales in comparison to what is actually happening behind


there. This is a whole new underground market for actually


transferring anything you want. Credit card data, personal


identifiable identification, explosions, drugs. These are


different areas you can sell in NOOKs and cranies on the Internet


separate from everything else. This isn't a scare story, you could go


on-line and buy drugs or explosions or guns or whatever it is? You can


buy drugs, explosives are difficult to come by, but you can find them


and buy them. These are things sold in the United States. Things that


are being sold all across the world. It is not a scare tactic at all, it


is relatively available, you don't have to worry about our identity.


The whole purpose of the designed infrastructure is to keep your


identity safe. Does it follow from that we should automatically


distrust DMIN who down-- anybody who downloads Tor? No, Tor is all about


privacy and privacy concerns and what your identity is on-line and


who can track it. Looking at recent actions with the NSA and what they


are able to do. There is a lot of private concerns in the security


industry about what type of information Governments have access


to, as long as on-line hackers. Tor was bred out of the privacy forum


and for good purposes, it can be used by the bad guys as well. What


is the way forward? I think there needs to be a blend, the Tor


application is very good for privacy and protecting information. At the


same time if you look at how law enforcement is able to do it. They


used zero day attacks, the things that haven't been discovered to


trace people on Tor. It is very hard for them to see what is going on


inside these areas. It will be really hard for them to move


forward. There has to be a ni blend between privacy and the ability to


get the bad guys that are doing these types of things on the


Internet. Can you see an obvious way of doing it? Right now, no. The way


technology is progressing and how it is progressing, there is a big


emphasis on encryption and security. That will sky rocket more with the


NSA allegations and everything else. Everybody is paranoid, which means


technology will expand in the next five years into something crazy we


can't look at. That will be challenging for law enforcement and


there is no good answer now. Now, the fond hopes of western


Governments that the dictatorship in Syria might be replaced by rebels


seeking a form of democracy look increasingly forlorn. Islamic


fundamentalists seem to be taking a more and more prominent role in the


Civil War. An organisation calling itself the Islamic state in Iraq and


the Levant, an Al-Qaeda affiliate now controls the important city of


Raqqa in Syria. A place of perhaps one million people, to whom they


brought their own species of religious tyranny. Refugees have


been telling our reporter about what it is like to live under. She has


reached the relative safety of Turkey but daren't talk openly. A


young Syrian activist, who fled not from the guns and the Assad regime,


but a new alien force. All lack Akbar. -- Allah hu Akbar. The


Islamic state of Iraq and Syria is a branch of Al-Qaeda has taking over


ever more of northern rebel held Syria. This is the story of how she


and other Syrians from her home city have been terrorised by the Jihadis,


after they thought they were liberated. TRANSLATION: Seven or


eight men with explosive belts surrounded my sister, some said


knife her or shoot her. She tore down her banner that said Christians


and Muslims are one, and told her she was an infidel. TRAN They are


the new dictators, like Bashar Al-Assad, but dressed in black. Only


the colour has changed. TRANSLATION: They bring children, and order them


to chant their slogans to say down with freedom, we want a KAL fate.


The Islamic state celebrated its takeover of Raqqa, exactly six


months ago. Celebrated by rounding people up to watch an execution. The


victims they said weren't Muslims. TRANSLATION: They didn't say their


names, just that they were Alawite, they fired in the air shouting "good


is greatest". An ambulance came for the bodies and they told the driver


to dump them on the rubbish tip but he insisted they were buried


properly. Raqqa, the population of a million, including disgraced people,


may be the largest city in the world ever fully controlled by Al-Qaeda.


Give me an example of how they made you behave differently and do what


you didn't want to do? TRANSLATION: I was walking down the street when


two masked men gave me a paper saying I must wear Islamic dress, no


make-up or high heels, otherwise they would take me to the


headquarters and beat me severely. TRANSLATION: They banned the sale of


alcohol, they tried to close cafes where boys and girls sit together,


they banned street cinema, theatre, bright colours. The men who imposed


the regin of terror include Jihadis from North Africa, Saudi Arabia and


Europe. Seen here training in northern Syria. The forces are


thought to include as many as 100 00 Britons. I'm here to help raise the


Jihad flag. The United States your time will come, we will bleed you to


death and raise the flag in the White House. With aims far wider


than Syria they have discredited the revolution in the eyes of the world


and split rebel forces. And that's produced another wave of refugees


trying to keep warm in a makeshift camp on the Turkish side of the


border. These have arrived in the last month from the nearby town,


where Jihadis have taken control. 12-year-old Mohammed can no longer


go to school. He's desperate to keep up his English. TRANSLATION: We had


to leave Damascus because Bashar Al-Assad destroyed our homes, we


moved to thevilleage, but the village was destroyed. We came here


to be safe. Just a few miles beyond the fence they cling to is a swathe


of Jihadi-controlled territory, it is getting wider by the day. Syrians


who have been under attack from their own Government for the last


two years are now bewildered and horrified to find they have a


second, equally ruthless enemy, they are being squeezed, sometimes


literally squeezed to death, between two forces, Jihadis and the regime,


who should be at opposite extremes, but who seem sometimes now to be


working in one another owes interests.


-- one another's interests. When the fighters attacked one of Raqqa's


main churches and made it their headquarters, they confirmed


Al-Assad's position that the revolution would turn sectarian.


TRANSLATION: Two carloads of armed fighters went on to the roof of the


church. They broke the bell with hammers and one of the crosses they


threw down into the street. They tried to break it but it was iron


and they threw down a crucifix too. The crucifix was seized by children.


But the cross was taken up by demonstrators chanting "shame,


shame" . Outside the headquarters they shouted that Muslims and


Christians would fight together for freedom. But now many of those


protestors and other social activists have been arrested or


forced to flee. TRANSLATION: They beat me with a rifle and with their


hands when they arrested me. They threw a wheel on my back so I


couldn't move. When I was arrested my mother came to the headquarters


and shouted at them, "you are like bats, when did you come to Syria,


where were you when our children stood defenceless against Assad's


bullets". Back on the border, refugees who have now escaped


Assad's blitz and bombs conDM him, but -- condemn him, but they are


mostly too scared to say anything against the Jihadis. The new enemy


that has jumped into the chaos of Syria, may now take even longer than


the regime to dislodge. Six weeks today it will be Christmas Day. So


there are a mere 42 days left in which to experience the glut of


advertising trying to persuade us that the only way to celebrate this


event is to spend a lot of money. The retailers need to get us into


the shops, apart from anything else, to recoup some of the fortune they


have spent on Christmas advertising campaign, in the last year or so we


have been exposed less to jingles and that but almost an arms race. We


will discuss whether it has success. First we have this. Tis the season


of amu mentality and nostalgia, and adverts that don't mention what they


are selling. That is far too boring. For these aren't really adverts at


all, apparently they are movies and the companies that make them take


them very seriously. Tesco even take you on set. What we're looking at is


something which is like a little slice of history. Nothing does


memory better than cinema. Tesco hope this ad will tell the real


story of Christmas, by following a pretend family through six decades.


So you met in the 1960s and we just got matter YOED and spent our first


Christm together. Spending on Christmas ads has increased


dramatically in recent years. Last Christmas supermarkets spent 23%


more on TV and press advertising than the year before. Tesco shelled


out the most ?8. Four million. Its sales went up by 5.6%. Sainsbury's


bill was ?5.7 million, their sales rose five. 1%. But Morrisons forked


out ?5. Five million and only had a 1.7 rise. Waitrose got a bang for


their buck, a mere ?2. Two million, translating into a nine. 3% increase


in sales. Earlier this evening Sainsbury's showed this Christmas


advert for the first time. It is a trailer for a documentary about


Christmas Day by the acclaimed director Devon McDonald. -- Kevin


McDonald. Christmas lunch is not a difficult meal to prepare. It is


made up of home videos gimp to the director by more than 100 families.


When we first saw the film that Kevin put together we thought it was


something pretty special, we asked ourselves a question how would you


launch a film, the idea is to do a preview or trailer, we thought about


using that perfect analogy, we thought our customers would love


seeing the full three-and-a-half minutes before moving down into


shorter formats. I think some people might be really struck even by the


language here, this is a film. You are selling Christmas cake, why are


you referring to it as a film, it is an ad? At Christmas time people want


to be entertained and engaged. Perhaps sometimes in marketing we


shout a bit too much at people about prices and promotions. It is


definitely a bit of a softer sell. Sainsbury's bought up the entire


ad-break during tonight's Coronation Street to show it. TV isn't all they


care about. Social media is at the core of their strategy. Sainsbury's


will be reading -- since breeze will be reading twitter and seeing what


the response will be, things have changed.


It is not clear whether all this advertTANment is working, will it


persuade you to walk through their doors?


With us now is Neil Christie managing director of the advertising


film and firm who made the advert and Isabelle Szmigin. They make it


sound as if they are doing a big style patronage of the arts. But


presumably these are hard commercial judgments? This is a very important


time for retail. But also for customers. Will they get their money


back? The one who is do a good job, will do, absolutely. What is your


view of these ads? I think we are going through a phase where there is


a particular kind of ad going on, going back to family values. It is a


very competitive market, some do well and some don't. We have to bear


that in mind, these companies are competing for the share of the


consumers' Christmas pound. They are not selling products? Not in these


ads, but this is just part of their overall campaign going up to


Christmas, there will be a whole load of other things, like your


report said, the social media is going on, there will be price


discounts in the stores. It is an amalgamation of ways to interact


with the consumers. It is a slightly old fashioned model, built around


the idea of the family sitting around the television, watching it


collectively, sharing in the narrative, as opposed to some kind


of viral campaign? Television is still a very effective way of


reaching a large number of people quickly. Television isn't the only


channel these retailers are using, they are using social media and


in-store, they are using on-line. These ways television is a great way


of starting the conversation, and that can continue. What is the


conversation about? It is about Christmas. People look forward to


Christmas. It is a lot of home videos? You are tapping into memory


which is an incredibly powerful thing. What is that to do with going


shopping? What that does is part of the preparation for all the stuff


you need. To have the Christmas you are looking forward to. I think your


cynicism is appropriate in many ways, what you have to do is at the


end of the day these companies have got to sell product and some of the


stories, people are going to like, but once you have seen the story,


and it comes up on the TV again and again, can you get a little bit


bored with it, and probably what you are thinking about, as you get up to


Christmas is how much money have I got and how much will I spend. How


many more times do I have to watch this? Exactly. We know consumers


attention span is quite tight. So if you have got an ad that is a minute


long, that can be problematic, I think the Sainsbury's one, they are


talking about a long one to start off with, then coming up with


smaller clips and so on. I think you have to be very careful about losing


your consumers' attention. I think it can. We have other things to do


as well as watch the ads. That is why so much time and effort goes


into making them engages and entertaining and as emotionally


moving as they can be. When you know the story at the end that the bear


has been woken up or the girl has her red shoe, the next time is it as


good. There is a level of craft and story telling that goes into them


that repays. How many times do you go to see a movie in a cinema? A


movie is 90 minutes long not a few seconds. You sit through the ads


repeatedly? Yes. And people do it. You have to be paid? People


genuinely enjoy these things and look forward to them. They look


forward to them? It is part of the celebration of Christmas, it is like


switching the lights on and putting up the decoration, they genuinely


love it. You have to bear in mind at the end of the day that people have


got to remember what is the brand they are watching. One of the things


I would be concerned about with some of them is, was that John Lewis or


was it Marks Spencers or whatever? Do we care? You know some of us care


more than others, but I think that the entertainment factor is


interesting. Why shouldn't ads be entertaining, there is nothing wrong


with that. What I'm concerned with is when you get so many ads like


this you can't cut through the clutter, they all become similar.


This is a vogue, it will pass and something else will come along?


There is definitely a trend over the last few years of more and more


being invested both financially and emotionally around these campaigns


at Christmas. It becomes a little bit like the Superbowl in America,


it becomes the place to be because there is so much at stake, and if


you are not in the game your people aren't aware you are out there and


you are not competing. So I think at the moment there is definitely a


feeling that for the big retailers, if you are not there in the


Christmas market you are really not competing and you will lose out.


Thank you very much indeed. Tomorrow morning's front pages now, the FT


goes with the news of the improvement in the economy: le


If you are the sort of of person who loves to cuddle up with a political


speech. The Conservative Party has deleted speeches David Cameron made


before he came to power. We have some left, so we leave you with a


reminder of those more innocent times.


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