12/11/2013 Newsnight


12/11/2013

Typhoon charity appeal. NHS winter crisis. Cameron and the shrinking state. John Tavener dies. Ireland's recovery. Interview with Lady Gaga. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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This programme contains flash photography.

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Good evening. The readiness of British people to give money to try

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to help relieve suffering has been in evidence again tonight as

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millions of pounds seem to be being donated to help victims of the

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typhoon in the Philippines. This is a humanitarian crisis so the DEC

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needs us to act now. Please help.

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Thank you. What is that makes us give to these

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appeals, to some more than others and is there a better way of

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organising these things? Ireland is about to become the first

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eurozone country to emerge from its bail out. What has the nation

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learned from its latest experience of hair shirts and pence? There is

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nor charity in what people do and the way they help each other and I

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think it made us better. And Lady Gaga is in town. They try

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me what to do the entire time? Even now? Yes, of course.

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You would have to have a heart of stone not to be distressed by the

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scenes of suffering caused by the Philippines typhoon. The broadcast

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of a Disaster and Emergency Committee appeal tonight is intended

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to provide a practical vehicle for that sympathy. ?10 million of

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taxpayers' money has already been committed and more will follow. The

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actions are based on the sense that there, but for the grace of God goes

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any of us. Yet the idea of a common human bond seems to be tempered by

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precisely which set of human beings are afflicted. Jim Reed reports.

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This is a photo of my family. I am trying to get in contact with them.

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My aunties, this is my mum. Thousands of miles away from the

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devastation and desperate for news. There is a huge relief underway in

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South East Asia, this group of second generation British Filipinos

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get together in North London. I haven't been able to contact them

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directly. Maybe the lines are down anyway. They can't pick up or the

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batteries are not charged. Tor tens of thousands, in the UK, with

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relation in the area affected by Typhoon Haiyan, the last few days

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have been full of engaged tones and unanswered Facebook messages. People

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over here feel helpless. For one, we can't get in touch with a lot of our

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relatives. There isn't enough information coming out from certain

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areas. There is a big focal point on one particular area which badly

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needs help, but there is so many other areas that are suffering.

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More pictures showing the scale of the destruction emerged today.

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Helicopter footage shows houses flattened and roads unpassable.

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Thousands are still without food, water or shelter. There have been

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reports of looting and violence in some areas. Please, if we could have

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for our people, because some of them are dying, they are hungry. We need

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the help and assistance of some kind hearted people.

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But the death toll from one of the strongest storms ever to make land

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has been revised down. Early talk of 10,000 casualties was too high said

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the president of the Philippines this evening. The final figure is

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still likely to be around 2,500 with more than 500,000 more displaced.

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These people desperately need your help, that's why the DEC... Here in

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the UK, a group of 14 charities launched their appeal to help the

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victims. The likes of Oxfam and Action Aid pooled resources at a

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time like this, rather than try to compete for airspace and funds with

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each other. In all of what we do, we should ensure dignity for the people

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we are there to serve. Its working with people. What's amazing in these

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emergencies I have found over the past 20 years is that we see these

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dreadful pictures on the news, but actually, you know, people are

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working together, communities come together. They care for each other

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and there is lots of capacity in place that we need to do better at

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working alongside to ensure lives are saved and to ensure recovery

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takes place. The UN has already released ?15

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million worth of aid and has appealed for ?190 million worth of

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assistance, but this cash is for emergency help, tents, food and

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clean water, not to fund any long-term recovery plan. The Boxing

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Day tsunami of 2004 generated over ?1 billion worth of aid spending,

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but a later report backed by Bill Clinton said it took too long for

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money to reach some areas and often the cash was wasted. The public are

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keen to see results as quickly as possible. They are concerned about

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the images that they are seeing, you know, people suffering and so there

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is a testimony passion to give them shelter solutions as quickly as

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possible in terms of tents, flat-pack houses, however, these are

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often not appropriate for the context that they are in. They may

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not be, you know, earthquake-resistant or hurricane

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resistant or suitable for tropical zones or whatever they are in.

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Across the other side of London, any talk of reconstruction means little

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at the moment. This woman has been working in the UK while her children

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grow up in the Philippines. She heard nothing from them since the

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storm hit on Friday. As a mother, it is really heartbreaking to see all

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the pictures and videos and I could picture, and I have been questioning

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what about my children? What is the real condition of my children? We

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might now understand the scale of the disaster in the Philippines, but

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many of the stories of individuals and families have yet to be told.

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Well, Owen Barder used to advise Tony Blair on aid and now works at

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the Centre for Global Development. Ian Birrell is a contributing editor

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for the Daily Mail. Are you impressed by the reaction to this

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disaster? Yes, I think it shows the best of humanitarian that --

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humanity, we want to give, we the want to help. The fact that people

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are willing to of reach into their pockets and help people on the other

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side of the world is impressive. Are you impressed by the mechanism?

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I this I we need to do it better. We have had the lessons of the tsunami

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in 2004. We have had the lessons of Haiti. We have not learned the

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lessons that we have to do it quickly. But it does reach them and

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it does help them. What do you make of it? The mantra

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of the aid industry is that we can do it better next time and that's

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always what they have been saying and they have been saying it for 50

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years. Maybe they are getting better? You look at what happened in

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Haiti and it was a terrible what happened, where the wishes of local

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people were ignored and there were meetings being held, there were so

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many people involved in the aid industry, because it is not Britain,

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but it is every western country and the developing world. You get

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hundreds and hundreds of groups forking in and causing chaos on the

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ground. Well, what are you suggesting? The suggestion first of

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all not for these, a lot of these groups are basically corporate

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interests dressed up as Mother Teresa and they need to stop

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thinking about their raising money and start thinking about what they

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want to do a listen to people on the ground. In Haiti, there were

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meetings being held without anyone there from Haiti and 0. 6% of the

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money went to interests from Haiti, whereas 40 % was spent on those

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supplying the aid living in expensive flats and buying expensive

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cars. I know from friends that it is a

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contest, who is going to get there, who is going to get the headlines on

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the television, who is going to get the money? Ian, says we don't make

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improvements, but I was in Ethiopia in the 1980s and I was there in 2009

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and 2010 when there was another drought and the big difference in

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2009 and 2010, you didn't see people going to relief centres to get fed.

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Why? Because there was a safety net in place that enabled Ethiopians to

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receive food and money in their villages and in their towns, in the

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face of a failed rains. That's the kind of progress that's made when a

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country is able to put in place its Steplts ch systems to enable its

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people to stay where they are rather than to have this disaster. Things

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get better and we have had the most remarkable progress a across the

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developing world. One of the things that should happen in this situation

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is aid agencies, both the international organisations and the

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NGOs should be more transparent about what they are doing. So that

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everybody can plan and know where it is that the needs are greatest.

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Something like the DEC is co-ordination of aid effort, isn't

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it? That's a co-ordination of raising the money, but the crucial

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thing and we didn't see this in Haiti and we need to see it in the

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Philippines is the money as it gets spent is spent in a way that

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everybody can see who is doing what because that's the only way that

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people will be able to work out on the ground where they can contribute

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and in the 21st century it doesn't make sense that we don't know how

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the aid is spent. Have you any thought about the

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different ways we react to different disasters? Well, clearly, there is

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huge sympathy for something like this which is strong on television,

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if you look in the Central African Republic now and there are 400,000

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displaced people. There is a huge difference in how they approach it.

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The aid caravan moves on from one disaster to the other. If you look

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in Haiti, $9 billion was spent on a country of ten billion people and at

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the la end of -- and at the end of last year while the Red Cross had

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?300 million, that was twice what was spent on permanent housing and

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400,000 people were still in tents. It is obscene and my stomach turned

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when I saw the activities and some of the things that people were

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saying while the Haitians were frozen out of any decision making

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and having their lives ruined again. It is no coincidence the mayor

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called it the second earthquake and the second earthquake was the

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arrival of thousands of these aid agencies trying to raise money.

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You seem to be agreeing with him? If I was struck by a typhoon, I would

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want somebody to come and help me, to give me food, water and shelter

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and that's what people are doing and the idea that aid workers are there

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because they think it is glamorous when they are working around the

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clock in terrible conditions to help fellow human beings, that's obscene.

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Yes, we can do it better and I want to see the aid system work better

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and I am agreeing there are problems, but the idea that means

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the whole exercise should be disregarded as a caravan of people

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doing it in their own interests, that's cynicism. Thank you very

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much. There are unmistakeable signs that

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the NHS is gearing up for a crisis this winter. Downing Street has let

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it be known that the Prime Minister is getting personally involved in

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preparations. Like the leaves turning, warnings of a looming

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calamity in accident and emergency departments come round most autumns.

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But this year they are being taken more seriously than usual as the NHS

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awaits tomorrow's publication of the inquiry into how to improve A

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departments. Zoe Conway reports. Britain's politicians just can't

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keep their hands off the leavers when it comes to the NHS.

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And now the Prime Minister has decide to step in to be the A

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enforcer so he can avert a winter health crisis The NHS is meant to be

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largely independent of Government, but there is nothing like the threat

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of a winter crisis to push a politician's buttons. The number of

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people going to A departments has risen historically not least because

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of an ageing population, one million more people are coming through the

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doors than in 2010. Winter further challenges the system which is why

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we are supporting the most under pressure A with an additional

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?250 million, planning has started earlier than ever before this year.

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There are new reports today of 12,000 patients spending 12 hours or

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more on trolleys in A A is in crisis accord ing to the College of

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Emergency Medicine and this is before the winter started. People

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are asking where is the Government and what is it doing about it? So

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far all they have heard is crisis, what crisis?

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Andy Burnham is not the only one accusing the Government of

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complacency. Over the past few years, we have seen a huge reduction

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in the number of nursing staff at a time when workload is at record

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levels. What we have here is a system that is not got itself geared

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up to cope with what is inevitable that winter will come and unless we

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are very, very lucky, there will be that surge and I am saddened to say

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the planning in too many areas has not been good enough.

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The latest figures on the amount of time people spend waiting on

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hospital trolleys are hardly reassuring. There were over 87,000

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trolley waits of between four and 12 hours between April and October this

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year. Up from 47,000 two years ago. The Health Minister cuts the first

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turf a new ?187,000 centre. The NHS has always been the most

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politicised of public services. Its founder said that if a bed pan

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dropped on a hospital corridor, its noise should resound in the Palace

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of Westminster. Never mind so-called bed-blocking, wards are regularly

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clogged up by Prime Ministers desperate to roll up their sleeves

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and get their hands clean. But some say be warned. David Cameron might

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pull leavers, but they won't necessarily be attached to anything.

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The funny thing about this debate, the NHS is made up, if you look at

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it, of autonomous institutions by are hospitals and foundation trusts

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and what goes on in the hospitals is not actually very closely affected

:15:26.:15:31.

by politicians or policy, but you get this theatre every time there is

:15:32.:15:37.

worries over the NHS and how it will cope with the winterment

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There are concerns the last thing A need now is Whitehall meddling.

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It is really puzzling. We have seen the largest piece of legislation

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about the NHS in its history, entirely designed to take

:15:50.:15:52.

politicians out of the day-to-day running of the NHS and the rational

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behind that reasonably was that when you have the politicians entirely

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focussing in this war room way on what's going on, all the energy in

:16:01.:16:04.

the system looks up to try and keep the levels above them happy when

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they actually should be spending their energy looking at the service

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and how to improve it and how to redesign it.

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Tom, the medical director of the information is expected to recommend

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a radical overhaul of the way A are run. Today, there was this hint

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from Jeremy Hunt. Yes, there are difficult decisions, but they are

:16:26.:16:27.

decisions that his Government ducked and left the public exposed as a

:16:28.:16:33.

result. Some are already wondering whether

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difficult decisions could be political speak for A closures?

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Well, Cliff Mann is President of the College of Emergency Medicine which

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has warned that this year could see the worst ever winter in the NHS.

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You say that every year, don't you? We haven't been asked most years. We

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have been asked this year and we have been warning. The Department of

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Health says the NHS has never been in better shape to cope with the

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winter coming? I think that most of the things that people say are true,

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the problem is, it is not the whole truth. We get little soundbites of

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information here and there, and we are not taking the whole picture. So

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you take politicians from one side of the fence and what they say is

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true, if you take politicians from the other side of the House, but

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what they say is also true, but it is not the whole picture and the NHS

:17:26.:17:31.

is a complex struck steward and -- structure.

:17:32.:17:34.

Is it not the case that an extra what is it ?500 billion is being

:17:35.:17:39.

spent on A over the next two years? Well, ?250 million this year

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of which only a small proportion is going to A and even then only to

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the 50 worst performling trusts -- performing trusts which leaves 150

:17:49.:17:52.

trusts can no money this year. How much more money do you think you

:17:53.:17:57.

need or is it a bottomless pit? We don't need any more money. We are

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spending a lot of money, the ?250 million for this winner, last --

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winter, last year we spend over ?100 million for locums so that's ?350

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million, but we spend it on short-term fixes instead of sorting

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out the problem. You -- you and your colleagues spent

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a long time telling politicians to butt out of management of the NHS

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and they do so and you make a pig's ear of it? We have never suggested

:18:30.:18:35.

that politicians should butt out. We wanted a streamlined bureaucracy

:18:36.:18:38.

within the NHS and that's what we haven't got.

:18:39.:18:42.

Politician are having to wade in to bail you out at of the mess you find

:18:43.:18:47.

yourselves in by your own account? Yes, this is the mess not of our own

:18:48.:18:50.

making. The problems in the emergency departments up and down

:18:51.:18:53.

the country are a mismatch between the numbers of patients attending

:18:54.:18:57.

our departments and the numbers of staff we have to deal with that.

:18:58.:19:00.

Whose fault is that? There has been a lack of medium and long-term

:19:01.:19:05.

planning and no recognition if you remove credible alternatives to

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out-of-hours care, the only place for people to attend is their local

:19:10.:19:14.

accident and emergency departments and that's why numbers are rising.

:19:15.:19:17.

And whose fault is that? That's a fault of a series of Government

:19:18.:19:23.

decisions and decisions made by other bodies as your reporter said

:19:24.:19:26.

which means that there has been a lack of clarity as to what those

:19:27.:19:31.

out-of-hours services are. Are you reassured the Prime Minister

:19:32.:19:34.

is taking personal charge of sorting things out this winter? Well, I am

:19:35.:19:39.

always pleased to hear that senior Cabinet Ministers and the Prime

:19:40.:19:43.

Minister himself wants to take an interest in this. I feel for a long

:19:44.:19:46.

time the college has been trying to get our point across and for the

:19:47.:19:50.

first base really, was to get people to hear what we're saying. Now they

:19:51.:19:54.

are hearing what we are saying, hopefully we can move to the next

:19:55.:19:58.

point which is where we need to take decisive action.

:19:59.:20:02.

Thanks. There are some people who seem to

:20:03.:20:06.

think that the way you reduce the cost of living in this country is

:20:07.:20:10.

for the state to spend more and more taxpayers' money. They're wrong.

:20:11.:20:13.

That was the gist of the Prime Minister's message in telling us we

:20:14.:20:17.

have to get used to a permanently smaller state. Infuriated trades

:20:18.:20:19.

unionists take this as evidence that David Cameron and his coterie have

:20:20.:20:23.

no understanding of how tight things are for ordinary people. But it

:20:24.:20:25.

prompted our political editor, Allegra Stratton, who has just about

:20:26.:20:29.

to take off on maternity leave, to take a look at what we can make out

:20:30.:20:33.

of Cameron's changing view on the state.

:20:34.:20:36.

The State is being shrunk. A ?20 billion shrinkage here and more cuts

:20:37.:20:45.

there. By the end of this pamplt and the middle of next spending on

:20:46.:20:50.

public services will be down to less than a quarter of total UK GDP, all

:20:51.:20:56.

reluctantly down the mroim once told us. I didn't come into politics to

:20:57.:21:03.

make suts. Neither -- cutsment neither did Nick Clegg. Then this,

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last night. We have cut the deficit by a third. That doesn't mean taking

:21:09.:21:12.

difficult decisions on public spending. It also means something

:21:13.:21:17.

more profound. It means building a leaner, more efficient State. We

:21:18.:21:24.

need to do more with less. Not just now, but permanently.

:21:25.:21:27.

The difficulty for the Conservatives is that while the public appear to

:21:28.:21:32.

accept a shrinkage in the size of the deficit, in most polling, they

:21:33.:21:36.

are less keen on shrunken public services, for this reason, Tories

:21:37.:21:40.

are warned against bashing of the State, it puts swing voters off.

:21:41.:21:45.

Efforts to shrink the State continued. Before the last general

:21:46.:21:49.

election, the shen Shadow Chancellor announced -- the then Shadow

:21:50.:21:52.

Chancellor announced many billions of pounds of spending cuts. One

:21:53.:21:57.

biographer recounts that he turned to an aide and said, "Well, let's

:21:58.:22:02.

see if this costs us the general election." The Tories know there is

:22:03.:22:07.

scepticism about any plan to shrink the State and big public spending

:22:08.:22:14.

cuts and for that reason, they have been sheepishly about them. When I

:22:15.:22:18.

woke up and heard the BBC was reporting that you can make public

:22:19.:22:22.

services better, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. What

:22:23.:22:33.

changed? They think spending restraint. Michael Gove cut head

:22:34.:22:36.

count at the Department of Education. 23,000 admin posts were

:22:37.:22:43.

cut from the NHS, he said, but 5,000 doctors were taken on.

:22:44.:22:49.

But another factor is growing, the economy is recovering, but Labour's

:22:50.:22:53.

poll lead over the Conservatives is holding up, Tories think they have

:22:54.:22:58.

to make voters believe that a Labour Government would scale back up

:22:59.:23:01.

spending in public services, that it would mean a bigger State. The Prime

:23:02.:23:06.

Minister hopes to focus voters' minds on the reality of letting

:23:07.:23:09.

Labour back into power. He hopes that by talking about a leaner

:23:10.:23:15.

State, he is capitalising on voter concern about runaway public

:23:16.:23:27.

finances and also making Labour look provlogate in comparison. If the PM

:23:28.:23:35.

continues with austerity, fresh areas must be cut in areas

:23:36.:23:40.

untouched. So David Cameron is a tireless roller back of the State's

:23:41.:23:47.

frontier, but not every mile of it and not this side of the election.

:23:48.:23:55.

Of our most distinguished composers died today. Sir John Tavener was 69,

:23:56.:24:00.

a deeply religious man who had been plagued by ill-health for much of

:24:01.:24:06.

his life. The pain, he said this summer, had made him terribly

:24:07.:24:09.

grateful for every moment he had left. Let's hear a little of his

:24:10.:24:10.

work. How big a loss do you think he is?

:24:11.:24:49.

It is a considerable loss because he forged a very individual voice. He

:24:50.:24:56.

is rather like the English, he spoke to a huge number of people. He

:24:57.:25:04.

started off as an avant-garde composer and wrote pieces like The

:25:05.:25:13.

Whale. Celtic Requiem, these pieces were at the forefront of the

:25:14.:25:17.

avant-garde and then he retreated into a spir spiritual world and

:25:18.:25:27.

found a kind of language, that was sense uous and med tative and it

:25:28.:25:31.

appealed to a need in people, in society, for something that was

:25:32.:25:35.

spiritual which allowed people to look inside themselves and see their

:25:36.:25:38.

place in a wider world. What was he like? You had the thrill

:25:39.:25:44.

of having him compose pieces for you, but you performed for him? What

:25:45.:25:50.

was that relationship like? Well, it was very intense because after I did

:25:51.:25:58.

his opera Mary of Egypt, he started to write a lot of pieces for soprano

:25:59.:26:04.

voice. The pieces he wrote for me, they got more and more complex and

:26:05.:26:07.

difficult, but they always seemed to fit my voice and he had a very

:26:08.:26:13.

particular sound in his mind so working together to achieve that was

:26:14.:26:19.

quite difficult. But I think I managed to... Was he intimidating?

:26:20.:26:32.

Sometimes, yes. He really pushed the voice, I think, even with his core

:26:33.:26:37.

of music to the extremes. I never sang as I have sung in his music and

:26:38.:26:44.

I have never sung as high, but another piece went as high. I sang

:26:45.:26:48.

in the Albert Hall where I had to start on a D. It was up in the Gods

:26:49.:26:56.

and the orchestra were down there and I had to hit this note and hold

:26:57.:27:02.

it for several bars. But he was also, you know, very human. He had a

:27:03.:27:08.

great sense of humour and working with him was quite, you know, good

:27:09.:27:11.

fun. You are agreeing? Absolutely.

:27:12.:27:23.

Although John had a manistic side he liked the finer things, fine food

:27:24.:27:27.

and when he was younger, girls. He wasn't part of that Beatles set for

:27:28.:27:34.

nothing. He had a wonderful white suit. He was so tall and he had this

:27:35.:27:41.

congenital heart problem which killed him. Together with the white

:27:42.:27:47.

suit and the white scar of, there was a white Rolls-Royce and he cut a

:27:48.:27:54.

wonderful figure. You had this naughty boy about town, which I

:27:55.:27:58.

rather liked. What was his relationship with the establishment

:27:59.:28:01.

like, the musical establishment? I think they found him hard to accept

:28:02.:28:06.

for a while because, you know, when people actually strike a chord, you

:28:07.:28:16.

know, write the song that was done at Princess Diana's funeral, critics

:28:17.:28:27.

and establishment look esconse, and his music speaks to millions of

:28:28.:28:32.

people. He did a vigil which people sat through entranced. He had that

:28:33.:28:37.

ability to take people on a journey. Did you have any sense of why he

:28:38.:28:42.

struck this chord? What it was about his music or his presence coming

:28:43.:28:47.

through his music? Do you know, I think he really connected with the

:28:48.:28:51.

spiritual and he took risks to achieve that. I mean he actually

:28:52.:28:57.

explored not just western music, he, when I first met him, he played

:28:58.:29:03.

Indian classical music to me, and he loved Indian music. He tried to get

:29:04.:29:09.

programme organisers to enlist this piece you mentioned which was seven

:29:10.:29:13.

hours long. He with started at 10pm and finished with the dawn and

:29:14.:29:18.

that's a very Indian idea... It is a happening. Exactly. It really is. He

:29:19.:29:24.

drew instruments from China, from India, most people said it is

:29:25.:29:29.

inconvenient, but actually, it brought another dimension in. Even

:29:30.:29:34.

Middle Eastern elements. Not everything was a masterpiece, but a

:29:35.:29:39.

lot of it was really wonderful Thank you very much.

:29:40.:29:46.

It looks as if Ireland is about to become the first country in the

:29:47.:29:50.

eurozone to emerge from the bail out programmes set up when the currency

:29:51.:29:54.

went into spasm a few years ago. That moved the Celtic Tiger off the

:29:55.:29:57.

list of endangered species and into the category of the extinct. But the

:29:58.:30:01.

Irish, unlike some other parts of the eurozone took the medicine

:30:02.:30:04.

prescribed and now it seems their economy is judged to be well

:30:05.:30:07.

recovering. But the picture is almost as confused as the metaphors

:30:08.:30:10.

with hordes of young people still driven to seek their fortunes

:30:11.:30:18.

abroad. Joe Lynam brought his shovel over to Britain years ago. There

:30:19.:30:26.

were kids around Ireland sent to school with kes ketchup sandwiches.

:30:27.:30:36.

I just feel we exist as a family from month to month. Ireland will

:30:37.:30:42.

emerge as a much more stable, much more realistic place. How many

:30:43.:30:45.

people here intend to emigrate in the next two or three years?

:30:46.:30:56.

The Irish economy collapsed five years ago, when a giant property

:30:57.:31:00.

bubble burst taking the banking system with it. Because Ireland was

:31:01.:31:04.

locked into the euro, it couldn't relieve pressure by devaluing its

:31:05.:31:11.

currency, a bail out from the EU and IMF ensued and so too did tough

:31:12.:31:14.

austerity. Ireland is forecast to grow by over

:31:15.:31:19.

1% this year, the fact that it is growing at all is thanks in large

:31:20.:31:30.

part to the tech sector. Welcome to Dublin.

:31:31.:31:36.

The capital of Ireland. Welcome to Ireland. The new capital

:31:37.:31:44.

of the digital world. APPLAUSE

:31:45.:31:48.

Tech, whilst employing 8% or 9% of the workforce accounts for 40% of

:31:49.:31:52.

its exports. Tech giants like Facebook, Google

:31:53.:31:58.

and scwap twitter have their European offices in Ireland. Here

:31:59.:32:08.

for for tax breaks and talent. Emigration is the stain which

:32:09.:32:14.

Ireland simply cannot wash off. Whereas before, it was the

:32:15.:32:17.

uneducated who left for the US, Canada or the UK.

:32:18.:32:22.

Now, 1,000 well educated, mostly young people are taking their

:32:23.:32:26.

talents overseas every week. Just when they are needed most at home.

:32:27.:32:32.

Robert Burn is a psychology under graduate at UCD, he wants to work in

:32:33.:32:38.

hospitals, but the public sector is slimming down and had pay cuts of a

:32:39.:32:43.

fifth across-the-board. So Robert is job hunting in Australia and New

:32:44.:32:47.

Zealand. I grew up in an environment where everybody was praising the

:32:48.:32:51.

economy and everyone thought the Irish economy was the best thing

:32:52.:32:54.

ever, but we have seen it is not sustain bible and it is really

:32:55.:33:00.

affecting the youth. So personally, it is upsetting to feel that I have

:33:01.:33:03.

to leave the country and leave behind my family and friends.

:33:04.:33:08.

Newsnight arranged for 60 students to come together for a he debate

:33:09.:33:11.

about emigration and their future. We are here to find out what

:33:12.:33:16.

motivates people, whether it is getting some experience and coming

:33:17.:33:22.

back or the fact there are no opportunities here in Ireland?

:33:23.:33:25.

People have lost family members through suicide because of financial

:33:26.:33:28.

pressure. There is kids around Ireland who have been sent to school

:33:29.:33:34.

with ketchup sandwiches. We are here, we are safe enough, protected

:33:35.:33:38.

enough, but there is people and families in this country without

:33:39.:33:42.

hope. Do you feel the anger that some young under graduates may feel,

:33:43.:33:45.

their prospects are withering in front of them? No. I don't feel it

:33:46.:33:54.

and I haven't observed it and I think if you are an under graduate

:33:55.:34:01.

with no plan and no specific goal in mind, it is very easy to become

:34:02.:34:05.

disillusioned and upset about the future. We have employers contacted,

:34:06.:34:14.

I have employers contacting me every day. Who laughed at that prospect?

:34:15.:34:22.

People under 25 are earning 25% less. People who are two or three

:34:23.:34:28.

years older are earning 17% more in the same role as people who are

:34:29.:34:31.

under 25 year. Despite the seeming pessimism, they

:34:32.:34:37.

are positive about the future. I want a show hands, no one is allowed

:34:38.:34:46.

to abstain. Who is optimistic? Whatever the evidence is, Irish

:34:47.:34:50.

people always feel that things could be worse and you find people in

:34:51.:34:53.

Ireland will tell you that at least we are not Greece. And they will

:34:54.:34:59.

feel it is about to get better. Unlike the Greeks or Spanish, the

:35:00.:35:04.

Irish didn't vent their anger on the streets, so what does that say about

:35:05.:35:09.

their character and have they changed since the crisis. One famous

:35:10.:35:15.

Irish boxer thinks so. I think it has create more care in the

:35:16.:35:21.

community. More cohesiveness within society in general. People are

:35:22.:35:26.

helping out more often. There is more charity in what people do and

:35:27.:35:31.

the way they help each other and I think it made us better.

:35:32.:35:36.

Maybe taking it on the chin, we have had a lot of hard times, a lot of

:35:37.:35:42.

people of my age and younger had to emigrate and go abroad and find work

:35:43.:35:46.

and life abroad and probably won't come home at all maybe and you know,

:35:47.:35:52.

that's hard from a friend's point of view and from a family point of

:35:53.:35:57.

view. The word is Ireland's demise and

:35:58.:36:01.

potential rise, better illustrated than its property market. House

:36:02.:36:05.

prices crashed by almost 60% when the crisis struck, but have started

:36:06.:36:10.

rising again in Dublin and the main cities.

:36:11.:36:17.

How much would this place typically sell for? OK, at the moment, this

:36:18.:36:24.

would sell between 525,000 and 550,000. The same house 12 months

:36:25.:36:29.

ago was probably more around the 450,000 mark.

:36:30.:36:34.

70,000 or 8le 0,000 drop in the space of 12 months? Absolutely.

:36:35.:36:38.

Whoever buys this house will have a smaller mortgage than those who

:36:39.:36:43.

bought in the five or so years before the crash in 2008. They

:36:44.:36:51.

include Mandy Freeman, a theatre nurse earning 36,000 per annum, but

:36:52.:36:57.

describes herself as one of Ireland's working poor. Her income

:36:58.:37:01.

has been slashed by a quarter. There is a deficit in the pay packet every

:37:02.:37:06.

month. We have had to cut our health insurance. We don't have family

:37:07.:37:10.

holidays anymore and we have had to cut a lot of corners in relation to

:37:11.:37:15.

shopping and utility bills and outgoings. I feel we exist as a

:37:16.:37:20.

family from month to month. Mandy was typical of many who

:37:21.:37:26.

believed the boom would never end so badly. One prominent Irish

:37:27.:37:30.

businessman feels that the Irish knew they would have to atone.

:37:31.:37:35.

Somewhere deep down there in the Catholic mentality was an

:37:36.:37:38.

understanding that actually, we will have to pay for this. People were

:37:39.:37:45.

being driven by, you know, a quick buck, the opportunity to make money,

:37:46.:37:51.

the pushing of things. There was a sense that something was lost and

:37:52.:37:54.

you had this huge influx of people from outside who did most of the

:37:55.:37:58.

work. There was a kind of almost a laziness that crept into Irish

:37:59.:38:05.

society. Ireland still has 13% unemployment

:38:06.:38:10.

and one of the highest levels of personal and Government debt in

:38:11.:38:15.

Europe, but GDP and job creation is up and confidence that it is nudging

:38:16.:38:21.

higher. Ireland was the model pupil who took its punishment stowically.

:38:22.:38:42.

Well John Bruton is a former Irish Prime Minister. Ann Pettifor is

:38:43.:38:50.

director of Policy Research in macro economics. , what is the lesson? We

:38:51.:38:54.

have formed a direct investment sector, you menning mentioned

:38:55.:38:57.

pharmaceuticals, and financial services and also we have made this

:38:58.:39:00.

a country where it is easy to set-up a new business, the bureaucracy

:39:01.:39:05.

involved in establishing a new business is small and that has

:39:06.:39:09.

encouraged a lot of Irish people to set-up businesses, spinning off from

:39:10.:39:14.

the hi-tech sector and has enabled us to be in a situation now where

:39:15.:39:19.

our services exports exceed our goods exports. So we are a dynamic

:39:20.:39:24.

economy and we are also an open economy in contrast to say Greece,

:39:25.:39:27.

Portugal or Spain where they basically trade within their own

:39:28.:39:32.

nation. We export and import much more which means that... Sorry to

:39:33.:39:40.

cut across you there. It is a very a mixed picture when you see a lot of

:39:41.:39:43.

young people emigrating, a lot of people had to take serious cuts in

:39:44.:39:49.

their living standards, and worry about making ends meet and yet,

:39:50.:39:53.

according to the IMF and the European Central Bank, this is an

:39:54.:39:59.

economy that's resurgent? I heard Joe Lynam say that as well. There

:40:00.:40:05.

has been an uptake in the quarterly numbers on GDP, the European

:40:06.:40:09.

Commission says the economy continues to contract. We have high

:40:10.:40:12.

levels of unemployment. We have incomes falling. We have households

:40:13.:40:20.

with 200% of their debt to disposable income and we have a

:40:21.:40:25.

country that's effectively evicting a generation of its people, 1,000

:40:26.:40:32.

people a week and it is a tax haven. So I mean I really think that the

:40:33.:40:37.

talk... You wouldn't think the two of you are talking about the same

:40:38.:40:41.

country? There is a lot of spin going on about Ireland. The economy

:40:42.:40:45.

has not been restructured, not a lot has changed since the crisis. John

:40:46.:40:54.

Bruton? I would like Ann to no he at the height of the crisis, we were

:40:55.:41:00.

losing jobs. The number employed was doing reduced by 8,000 a month. We

:41:01.:41:04.

are adding jobs at a rate of 3,000 a month and that's changed completely.

:41:05.:41:08.

Ireland is not a tax haven. Ireland made a decision to have a low

:41:09.:41:13.

corporate tax rate, but that's a transparent system of taxation with

:41:14.:41:17.

no special deals for individual companies like you see in certain

:41:18.:41:22.

Continental European countries. Of course, we have a problem with

:41:23.:41:25.

personal debt. That's how we got into the difficulty we are in, but

:41:26.:41:29.

where the level of personal debt is being reduced and the Government has

:41:30.:41:38.

on every occasion met the fiscal targets for dealing with its

:41:39.:41:41.

financial problems. One of the reasons why Ireland is having

:41:42.:41:46.

trouble accessing the ESM is that Ireland's European partners are

:41:47.:41:51.

really angry about the corporate tax levels, about the fact that they are

:41:52.:41:59.

effectively subsidising Ireland. This is another argument altogether?

:42:00.:42:04.

No, we are being lent money by our European partners upon which we are

:42:05.:42:07.

paying interest. That's not a subsidy. That's a deliberate

:42:08.:42:11.

decision by our European partners that they want to keep the European

:42:12.:42:17.

single currency together, they don't want Europe going down the route of

:42:18.:42:20.

devaluation and inflation of the kind we had in the 70s and # 0s --

:42:21.:42:26.

80s, they are building a single currency and that solidarity is

:42:27.:42:29.

being shown to Ireland and we appreciate it and hopefully in due

:42:30.:42:35.

time we will be able to reciprocate it? By under cutting her partners in

:42:36.:42:41.

tax terms, this is causing quite a lot of anger not just in Europe, but

:42:42.:42:47.

also in the United States? No. Ireland had this tax rate... I am

:42:48.:42:52.

going to have to cut you off because we don't have anymore time for this

:42:53.:42:55.

discussion. I am sorry. Thank you.

:42:56.:43:02.

Now a rare encounter with genius. The shy chanteuse Lady Gaga is

:43:03.:43:05.

coming back from a debilitating illness with a new album. At a

:43:06.:43:08.

characteristically modest launch event in which she was transported

:43:09.:43:14.

by flying frock. She told the world that her latest work is not really

:43:15.:43:18.

about me at all, not about money and mass production, but about moving

:43:19.:43:22.

the world away from a place of vanity and ego. This Mahatma-like

:43:23.:43:24.

ambition was irresistible to Miranda Sawyer of the Culture Show.

:43:25.:43:29.

Gaga. We can back. Thank you forking having me. You had an enforceted

:43:30.:43:37.

absence between the last album and this one due to illness. How were

:43:38.:43:42.

you as a patient? And how is it to be back? Well, I guess I was a good

:43:43.:43:48.

patient because I was so excited to rejuvenate my body. It was exciting

:43:49.:43:53.

in a way. You feel like an infant, but in another way, I felt dead all

:43:54.:43:58.

the time because I couldn't be on stage so I guess I just really took

:43:59.:44:05.

to enjoying and appreciationing the parts of what I do, that are life is

:44:06.:44:12.

art all the time as a way too make it through that sort of torture I

:44:13.:44:17.

was feeling. I think it was good for me because this stage is, you know,

:44:18.:44:22.

it is a place that I started to rely on, I think, very much and the fans

:44:23.:44:26.

and that interconnection and when it went away, I had to find a more

:44:27.:44:31.

spiritual connection with music and art and I am sort am on that journey

:44:32.:44:35.

path now. When you this I of how you present

:44:36.:44:39.

yourself on stage. If you think about a lot of pop artists and

:44:40.:44:45.

female artists who are presented in a straightforwardly sexual way. They

:44:46.:44:49.

have to be really good looking and presented as though the first thing

:44:50.:44:54.

you are going to react to is do you fancy them. You don't do that,

:44:55.:44:59.

sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. How do you regard your body

:45:00.:45:04.

then within that context? Well, I would say that in pop music, in that

:45:05.:45:12.

particular sphere that there is one dimensional quality to sexuality. I

:45:13.:45:18.

think the difference between what I do and that, if I can maybe start

:45:19.:45:21.

there, is there is an intention always behind the sexuality if the

:45:22.:45:27.

sexuality is there, but most of the time I don't particularly find

:45:28.:45:32.

myself to be very sexy actually and in the beginning of my career, I

:45:33.:45:37.

think that some of this exploration of covering myself up and

:45:38.:45:43.

transforming into other icons and other states of life was a sense of

:45:44.:45:48.

sexual freedom for me because I felt numb by my experiences and I wanted

:45:49.:45:53.

to escape things. You use sex on this album in quite, in an

:45:54.:45:56.

interesting way. There is lots of different aspects to it, but often

:45:57.:46:02.

it is used as a way into love, it seems? The sex is hopefully going to

:46:03.:46:05.

lead on to something that will touch you a little more. Would you say

:46:06.:46:09.

that's right? Yes, I would say that's right, but I don't create

:46:10.:46:17.

with the intention of the finale, if that makes any sense? I don't always

:46:18.:46:21.

know what is going to come out of it. So it is really beautiful for me

:46:22.:46:25.

to hear your reading of my experience with sex and love at this

:46:26.:46:30.

time because my earlier experiences with sex were quite perverted and

:46:31.:46:42.

scary, terrifying, fear. I don't know, it reminds me of these things

:46:43.:46:46.

we are sitting around. Yeah, they are quite spooky, aren't

:46:47.:46:52.

they? It was a little bit terrifying for me so now I have really great

:46:53.:46:57.

sex. Which is good k, I'm glad to hear it. It is a natural change.

:46:58.:47:00.

When you are talking about your reaction to your fans, your

:47:01.:47:04.

relationship seems to be particularly intense. It is. What do

:47:05.:47:09.

you get from them? Not just when you are performing, but when you see

:47:10.:47:14.

them outside the hotel, when they talk to you? Well, I choose to

:47:15.:47:21.

receive their love and because of that, it has become very intimate

:47:22.:47:29.

over the years. I think that you know maybe in your suggestion that

:47:30.:47:33.

my relationship with my fans is different than some other pop

:47:34.:47:41.

artists, I think some of it is because there is a separation

:47:42.:47:45.

between them and the work for some people. That what I'm doing here and

:47:46.:47:51.

what is happening here are two different things. But because I've

:47:52.:47:58.

studied since I was 11 years old, I have a sense of, I have a sense. So

:47:59.:48:07.

because of that I am aware of their energy all the time and I receive

:48:08.:48:13.

it, so I need it for my work. I can't survive as what I have become

:48:14.:48:17.

without them. I didn't mean to interrupt then, sorry. I didn't mean

:48:18.:48:21.

to talk for so long! These things happen, you know, you have got a lot

:48:22.:48:30.

to say. Do I? I might sound total sheet and your ratings will go down

:48:31.:48:36.

and you will wonder why you put me on this show.

:48:37.:48:42.

You can see more of that interview on a Culture Show special.

:48:43.:48:48.

Until then, sleep well.

:48:49.:48:52.

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