14/11/2013 Newsnight


14/11/2013

One year on, have police commissioners made any difference? Plus the Chilcott Inquiry, the star of Borgen, former child soldiers in Columbia and Sir Ranulph Fiennes.


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Transcript


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Donovan. See you tomorrow. Good night!

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Donovan. See you tomorrow. Good Scissors and Jodie Penger and Jason

:00:09.:00:08.

Donovan. See you week. I really think it is important

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we get out and meet the community. I will speak to the police saying ?100

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million has been spent to make the police less effective. The climax of

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Borgen begins and I have an audience with the statistics minister. It is

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rare in a sense that you have to be this icon and perfect and morally

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above everybody else. A special report on the former child soldiers

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of Columbia, struggling to deal with their past.

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He is one of the world's greatest living adventurers, who has

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repeatedly faced death and temperatures as low as minus 80, now

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Sir Ranulph Fiennes has written his story.

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Good evening, it was heralded as the biggest change to policing since

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1829, one year on since 41 Police Commissioners got their hands on

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power, can you name your Police Commissioner, and have they made any

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difference to the fight against crime? In comic book culture they

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are public defenders, characters like Gotham City's commissioner GORD

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-- Commissioner Gordan, but in in country it is hard to get people

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excited about Police Commissioners, 15% people voted in the first

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election. This might have been a exercise in democratic exercise, but

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a year on we have Twitter rows, accusation claims and accusations of

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Well, clearly you have highlighted trust after the Hillsborough tragedy

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Well, clearly you have highlighted two important points there. When

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voters look at it and had the opportunity to kick me out, which

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they didn't have when I was chairman of the Police Authority. I think

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they will realise it was a shortlisting by the chief executive,

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and whilst I know him's one of the greatest deputies I could have. He's

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still a friend of yours, is it right to appoint friends as positions of

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deputies? I don't believe it is wrong to discriminate against

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someone just because you know them. There is also an on going row over

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the Andrew Mitchell pleggate affair. The commissioner for Warwickshire

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has been heavily criticised by politicians who said he rushed to

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the defence of the police in that case. That was strongly denied in a

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Newsnight interview. Is it not the case that the first report, sorry,

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concluded there was a case to answer and the second one didn't. That is

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correct, I didn't know that until today. Is it not also the case...

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You didn't know that until today? Correct. When did you first become

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aware of it? Lunchtime today. What were you doing defending your Chief

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Constable then, you didn't know what was going on? That is again, I think

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a bit of an oversimplification. And there have been a regular series of

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gaffes in the papers, like the commissioner from Middlesborough who

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had his mobile phone stolen from his pocket just before a meeting on

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retail crime. And more seriously the resignation of Paris Brown as a

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youth crime commissioner in Kent after a series of her offensive

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Twitter messages were published. The reason I wanted a youth commissioner

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is still there, we need this connection with young people.

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Sometimes things don't go according to plan. I'm interviewing next week

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for her replacement and I will have somebody in post by Christmas. There

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is a real need for this, that young person will be very, very well known

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in the county. Did make you look like an amateur, didn't it? I was

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not an amateur, it was unfortunate. The vetting process she went through

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was the same vetting process that every single police officer goes

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through. Just unfortunate. Ministers though claim a change like this was

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never going to be straight forward. It will, they say, take until the

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next set of elections in 2016 before the public really starts to see the

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full picture. I'm joined now by two Police Commissioners, Kevin Hurley

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from Surrey, and Jones from the -- Bob Jones who joins us from the West

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Midlands. You have done your own report card in the last year, what

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you think has been happening in England and Wales, and the scores

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are abysmal. Reducing crime three out of ten, public confidence, two

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out of ten, community safety funding three out of ten. It is

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jaw-droppingly abysmal? I think your previous report would reflect that

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sort of score from the general public. I think just in terms of the

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Home Secretary's judgment that it is all about reducing crime, since

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April, when the budgets and plans of the PCCs have come into place, we

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have seen three decades of ever-decreasing crime grind to a

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halt. And more police areas are showing an increase in crime since

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April. You have done your own survey, I presume you wouldn't put

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yourself out of line with these scores, why not just quit? I think

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this is a really important job to hold the police to account. It is

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not working? I don't think it is. I think it is better to have a bridge

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than a rope to cross a river. People like me make sure we don't drive a

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car across the rope ladder. If you don't think it is working or giving

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the public value for money or reducing crime or any of these

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things, why not hand back the bulk of your salary this year? I'm doing

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my best to mitigate the impact. I believe I am proving effective in

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stopping some of the damaging elements of the model. This morning

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I was awarded the first transparency award, which indicated I was doing

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the best to be open of any PCC in the country. And that's because I

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know the risks and I'm avoiding the risks. That was Bob Jones, trashing

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people like you? Bob's views are his views, this role is about much more

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than overseeing the police, it is about the crime bit. But nobody

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knows who you guys are? That is not true, certainly not in my area. What

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it is about is the crime bit is looking after Vic TRIEMs -- victim,

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making sure the Crown Prosecution Service and the court service and

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Borough Councils all work to the same agenda, dealing with crime and

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antisocial behaviour and giving victims a better service. Look at

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this on Bob Jones's report, public confidence two out of ten with a

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record low turnout at the election, record levels of hostile publicity

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and record numbers of investigations to PCC, clashes between police

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constables and PCC. There is no evidence it has led to more

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confidence or better governance in policing. He as not talking about

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himself but it is a pretty damning report. He is entitled to his view,

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but this is early days. The key part of the role is making sure victims

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get looked after by the other people who have a role to play. Not just

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the police. What we have is a new dog on the block and they are

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starting to bark and cut into the Crown Prosecution Service, the

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courts systems and borough and District Councils and say we are

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here to look after the public, let's do it together. It is not just the

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police's job. You are a new dog on the block, but aren't you just

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barking a bit louder what are you doing by way of the Probation

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Service probably being outsourced, Victim Support, do you support all

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this stuff? My position at the moment, I'm chairing on behalf of

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the police and crime commissioners. The way forward on victims I

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personally don't think what the Victim Support service do is broken.

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And so we're taking a very careful approach to look after victims. Bob

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Jones, you are meant to be acting on the public's behalf, let's just take

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plebgate, you came straight out of the traps and defended the police

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officers rather than standing out and saying I'm here on behalf of the

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public. Therefore, do people really think that you are independent and

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acting in their interests when clearly that was wrong? I think the

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possibly one saving grace of police and KROIM commissioners,

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particularly my -- and crime commissioners, particularly my

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colleagues in West Mercia is they haven't engaged in political

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grandstanding but they have gone for justice and what is right. Do you

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regret coming out and defending the officers? The take was on the IPCC,

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I would have thought it is fairly obvious they have made mistakes

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throughout. They should have independently managed the

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investigation, they clearly didn't supervise the investigation

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correctly, they have been forced to actually reverse all their decisions

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and actually go back to having that independent management. It did sound

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as if you were defending the officers? I'm defending the process.

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There needs to be fair due process, whether it is a police officer,

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cabinet member, or a member of the public, they need to be treated

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fairly and properly, the IPCC let us down on that basis. Isn't this the

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problem, actually the public doesn't actually know whose side you guys

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are on? The side we're all on, I would argue, is the side of the

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public. We are here to hear what is important to the public, and then

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make sure not only the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, and the

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court service, and dare I say the magistrates and judiciary, listen to

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the public. They want people to deal with antisocial elements, thieves,

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yobs and drug dealers. You are an ex-police officer, doesn't that put

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you on the side of the police officers? I'm a politician not a

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police officer. You were a police officer? I will be blunt i

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understand their business, they can't have me over should they

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choose to do so. If you gave the PCC such a bad report card nexty, will

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you stop before the end of your term, Bob Jones, and throw in the

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towel? If I could make way for somebody who would do a better job I

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would do. I haven't seen anyone who fits the bill yet. Because I'm aware

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of the risks I'm avoiding the pothole, I see myself like a ship, I

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don't believe there aren't any iceberg, I'm plotting a course to

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avoid the icebergs. There may be a pirate after new a moment! Coming

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up. I thought of a powerful person, leading a big ship. When I got to

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that stage where they are really, really powerful, I thought the

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gender wasn't very important. That in a moment, but first the Iraq

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inquiry, chaired by Sir John Chilcot is running just a bit late. We were

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told to expect the verdict last year, but nothing happened. Then the

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publication date shifted to the middle of thissy, but that too

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passed, without a word from Sir John. The latest date for our

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diaries is some time in the early part of 2014, but a stand-off

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between Chilcot and the cabinet secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, means

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we can expect even further delay. The row centres on the failure to

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agree the publication of documents including personal correspondence,

:14:30.:14:32.

between Tony Blair and George W Bush, so will Chilcot ever see the

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light of day. Here is our diplomatic editor.

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It has been going for four-and-a-half years. And was meant

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to finish three years ago. Central to the Iraq inquiry is the

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role of Tony Blair and his decision to join America's President Bush in

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attacking Iraq. What I was saying to President Bush was very clear and

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simple, you c count on us, we will be with you in tackling this, but

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here are the difficulties. be with you in tackling this, but

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was having to persuade him to take a view radically different from those

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in his administration. What I was saying to him is I will be with you

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in handling it this way. I'm not going to push you down this path and

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then back out when it gets too hot politically, because it is going to

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get hot politically. For me very, very much so. This is how it was

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meant to work, in October the inquiry sent letters to those who

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might be criticised telling them to expect imminently the details of

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possible channels. The letters containing the criticisms were

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drafted and should have been sent by now. The process called

:15:43.:15:47.

Maxwellisation, allows people to respond to the inquiry and was

:15:48.:15:52.

supposed to be nearly complete. The hope in Whitehall was that the

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finished report would be ready by February. But now that won't happen

:15:56.:16:00.

because the inquiry in the Cabinet Office cannot agree on the release

:16:01.:16:06.

of some secret papers. Writing to the Prime Minister ten

:16:07.:16:09.

days ago, the inquiry chairman reiterated the need to release

:16:10.:16:11.

details of: David Cameron says he will soon

:16:12.:16:31.

decide whether any more material can be declassified for the Iraq

:16:32.:16:36.

inquiry. The word on the street in Whitehall is while there might be

:16:37.:16:40.

some room for compromise over the cabinet minutes, the cabinet

:16:41.:16:44.

secretary is determined that the Prime Minister should hold firm on

:16:45.:16:49.

the communications between previous prime ministers and President Bush

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in the United States including those private notes written to President

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Bush by Tony Blair. Adding fuel to the fire, the former

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Foreign Secretary, Lord Owen this week wrote to Mr Cameron suggesting

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the cabinet secretary, Jeremy Heywood, was not the right man to

:17:14.:17:19.

ajudicate this issue, as he had been running Tony Blair's office at the

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time of the Iraq War. I will be speaking to Lord Owen in just a

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moment, but Mark is here. Is it possible that if John Chilcot does

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not get a satisfactory resolution to this he won't deliver a report? It

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is possible. I'm not sure it is likely. We have been building to

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this crisis, and we have now entered the really serious crisis of this

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process. For three years he has been trying to get this material

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declassified for use in his report. The people on the inquiry have seen

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it, it is a question of whether they can make it public. And he hasn't

:17:56.:18:00.

got what he wants and he has clearly decided to draw a line in the sand

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here, from the other side of the equation, David Cameron has to make

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the judgment. How far will he be swayed by the various considerations

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we don't know. We do know that Tony Blair, as so often in this is

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central. He has been making it clear how damaging he thinks it would be

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for prime ministers in the future if those things... Not perhaps his own

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reputation, who knows He has made that clear, there are all sorts of

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rumours going on about the lengths he would go to. His office denied

:18:32.:18:35.

suggestions that he might take legal action to stop the cabinet secretary

:18:36.:18:39.

going ahead and making public those communications which he, as we heard

:18:40.:18:46.

there, he considers to be private we don't think necessarily Gordon Brown

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shares that that view. This comes down to the Prime Minister right to

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secret communication with other leaders. David Owen, Lord Owen is in

:18:57.:19:04.

our studio from minute NAP lisence where he joins us -- minute AP

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lisence, from where he joins us. What do you make of what Mark is

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saying about what may happen. It is unlikely that Sir John Chilcot will

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not report, but it is possible without satisfaction and resolution

:19:18.:19:24.

in this there cannot be a complete report. It is very important -- It

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is very important the Chilcot committee are not rolled over in

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this. What are we discussing, a war that took place which we now have

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pretty clear evidence was done in defiance of a great deal of

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professional advice. That parliament was lied to and the intelligence

:19:43.:19:48.

which was quoted to parliament was justified by the Prime Minister in

:19:49.:19:53.

words which were not the same as were in the reports. In particular

:19:54.:20:00.

his forward, which was criticised by the chairman of the Chilcot Inquiry

:20:01.:20:04.

and another senior diplomat on the inquiry, was misleading parliament.

:20:05.:20:11.

Disingenious was how one cabinet secretary described the Prime

:20:12.:20:13.

Minister's presentation of the intelligence. This is not a minor

:20:14.:20:17.

matter, it is a very serious matter. To whom does it fault to sort this

:20:18.:20:22.

out? I gather it is the cabinet secretary. They are claiming, the

:20:23.:20:26.

report said it was David Cameron. It is very difficult for David Cameron,

:20:27.:20:30.

a Prime Minister from a different political party to make that

:20:31.:20:33.

judgment. And that's why I suggested it should be decided by the Lord

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Chancellor, who does actually make these decisions about after 30 years

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where the documents should be going. This inquiry was set up with the

:20:43.:20:45.

full knowledge that the decisions were being taken by President Bush

:20:46.:20:53.

and by our Prime Minister and that which Tony Blair wrote to the

:20:54.:20:59.

President Bush was writing as an official document as Prime Minister.

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Maybe confidential. Just to interrupt you there, David Cameron

:21:04.:21:09.

may be mindful of the privacy, accorded to correspondence, between

:21:10.:21:13.

prime ministers and other leaders, you know the leader of the United

:21:14.:21:18.

States, otherwise how can there ever be these conversations. Churchill?

:21:19.:21:23.

It is nothing to do with this, Churchill was actually criticised

:21:24.:21:28.

during the inquiry that took place during the First World War, because

:21:29.:21:34.

of the fiasco. The Iraq inquiry is about a fiasco, lo of British life

:21:35.:21:38.

with very little purpose, we are seeing that every day in a situation

:21:39.:21:42.

in the Middle East and affecting Iraq, but above all a very serious

:21:43.:21:46.

question, was parliament lied to or not? Was this a case of contempt of

:21:47.:21:51.

parliament? These are not minor issues. If Tony Blair manages to

:21:52.:21:56.

keep these letters confidential, what will the impact of this be? I

:21:57.:22:01.

wonder will you always be happy to release any correspondence that you

:22:02.:22:05.

had in your time in office, should it all be public? No I don't believe

:22:06.:22:10.

it should. Normally it is covered by, what we now have is the 20-year

:22:11.:22:17.

rule. Either something has gone very seriously wrong, and like going to

:22:18.:22:21.

war, then you have to have special measures. So an inquiry was set up

:22:22.:22:31.

of all Privy Council LORs, those -- Privy Councillors, those COMBRIEF

:22:32.:22:37.

Councillors have systems set up to show what they were doing as private

:22:38.:22:43.

citizens. Tony Blair's view is of secondary importance. You seem to be

:22:44.:22:47.

suggesting that Jeremy Heywood is compromised on this? Of course, he

:22:48.:22:53.

was his private secretary during the time of 1993 to this serious period.

:22:54.:23:02.

Of course we can't publish what President Bush said in reply. If the

:23:03.:23:09.

Americans insist that is top secret that has to be kept secret. We can't

:23:10.:23:13.

breach the secrecy of another head of Government. But our head of

:23:14.:23:16.

Government is being held accountable. It is a largely about

:23:17.:23:20.

Tony Blair. Are we going to allow Tony Blair to veto evidence which

:23:21.:23:26.

may be critical. Are you suggesting it was integrity a question of

:23:27.:23:30.

integrity? No I don't believe it is possible for somebody, I think he

:23:31.:23:34.

should recues himself, he was involved in that in Number Ten

:23:35.:23:39.

during this period. I'm sure he's a capable cabinet secretary and he

:23:40.:23:43.

should be invited to make inquiries in every other area bar this

:23:44.:23:47.

particular one. It was an unlikely massive hit. A political drama about

:23:48.:23:51.

the intricacies of coalition politics. But Danish television's

:23:52.:23:55.

Borgen was so much more than that. The first two years -- series were

:23:56.:24:07.

watched in many countries. Brigitte Nyborg takes credit for that. The

:24:08.:24:14.

public and private life of a conflicted woman gripped audiences.

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The third and final series begins on BBC Four. I went to Copenhagen to

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interview Sidse Babett Knudsen, who we all know as the statistics

:24:25.:24:29.

minister. How did the Danish parliament provide the setting for

:24:30.:24:33.

this series. The cameras go beyond the intrigue and plotting to show

:24:34.:24:38.

the damage of the domestic lives of those running the country.

:24:39.:24:48.

SGLIECHLT When I met Sidse Babett Knudsen, she

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told me how her character has changed since we last met her. First

:25:01.:25:04.

of all it has been two-and-a-half years since we left her at the end

:25:05.:25:12.

of season two and she has gone out of politics. That is the big thing.

:25:13.:25:15.

She has got into what do you call it, she's on boards, she's written a

:25:16.:25:23.

book. She does lectures, so in the private sector. Living with her

:25:24.:25:33.

children alone. She has become very rich. When you actually were looking

:25:34.:25:39.

at the idea of a powerful female political character, did you have

:25:40.:25:43.

anyone in mind? I thought about the powerful person, leading a big ship.

:25:44.:25:48.

And I thought I was looking at examples, but just as much of women

:25:49.:25:55.

leaders in all other sorts of areas. And then when I got to that stage

:25:56.:26:00.

where they are really, really powerful I thought the gender wasn't

:26:01.:26:08.

very important. Interesting though because there is a certain

:26:09.:26:10.

steeliness you find? Politicians are rare in the sense that as a person

:26:11.:26:20.

you have to be this icon and perfect and morally above everybody else,

:26:21.:26:23.

which you wouldn't demand off somebody in charge of a corporation

:26:24.:26:27.

or something else. As the character in the first two series, the writers

:26:28.:26:32.

gave you more tears in the script than you actually shed in Borgen, we

:26:33.:26:36.

don't see you crying that often. Was that y bringing your own sensibility

:26:37.:26:40.

to the character that you thought she would have behaved in a certain

:26:41.:26:44.

way and they thought differently? Absolutely, I thought that she's a

:26:45.:26:52.

hero, and we have to believe that she is be in a room. There was, it

:26:53.:27:02.

was the way, how she, emotionally reacted to decisions, for example,

:27:03.:27:07.

very conscious, a bit overconscious is what I thought. That she felt bad

:27:08.:27:13.

when she made a tough decision and regretted it and on behalf of

:27:14.:27:17.

everyone and all that. You don't have time to feel or think like that

:27:18.:27:23.

when you are up there. So, and also I thought then she's not going to

:27:24.:27:29.

look responsible. So I think it was very important to me that she was

:27:30.:27:33.

responsible for her actions, she took responsibility. And of course

:27:34.:27:37.

the relationship with your then husband, created huge arguments in

:27:38.:27:42.

households all over Britain, I can tell you, about whether he had been

:27:43.:27:50.

an absolute or reneged on the deal. Did you tussle over that about how

:27:51.:27:55.

to play that between you? Not between us, but in the writing room,

:27:56.:28:09.

yeah. I thought YEP! Absolutely. The "wuss"! We did have this discussion

:28:10.:28:19.

where I said I think it is very important for her if he's cheating

:28:20.:28:25.

it is a big thing. Yeah but he was really sad, yeah, but it is a big

:28:26.:28:34.

thing, you know. That is sort of a male-female thing whether a slip on

:28:35.:28:38.

the side is important or not. There has been a study by Danish Business

:28:39.:28:42.

Schools saying that Borgen itself has countered a kind of apathy in

:28:43.:28:48.

politics. And actually it has been interesting about engaging people in

:28:49.:28:53.

politics in Denmark again? The funny thing is when I was first told about

:28:54.:28:57.

the project, I thought politics, the Danes won't like that. And then when

:28:58.:29:02.

it became something real you suddenly had cab drivers talking

:29:03.:29:07.

more about politics. I think it happened at the same time. There is

:29:08.:29:12.

a lot to do with timing, a lot of lucky timing going on with the

:29:13.:29:15.

series. It seems to be less cynical often than some of the dramas we

:29:16.:29:19.

have in DRIN about women in power. -- in Britain about women in power.

:29:20.:29:23.

There has to be an edge to it. It wasn't like the West Wing but it had

:29:24.:29:27.

a more positive feel to it? In general the whole show is not very

:29:28.:29:33.

cynical. I think that's a Danish thing. Do you think there is a

:29:34.:29:36.

respect for politicians here? In Denmark like in the UK and Scotland

:29:37.:29:43.

that people don't, they are angry with their politicians. The

:29:44.:29:50.

confidence has, is not very big. Right now we have an election here

:29:51.:29:55.

next week. What's most visible in the campaign is please vote. Did you

:29:56.:30:03.

imagine the whole season would touch such a nerve, it was shown in more

:30:04.:30:07.

than 70 countries, it is a massive hit. Within you set out did you

:30:08.:30:11.

think you were making a drama for Denmark? Absolutely. It is the most

:30:12.:30:15.

Danish thing that I have ever been in. It is about Danish politics

:30:16.:30:20.

going on in Denmark. And it is in Danish, you know. Compared to

:30:21.:30:25.

international politics we always think local politics is a bit, just

:30:26.:30:31.

for us! So it was really, really amazing that anybody else would be

:30:32.:30:36.

interested in it. And identify. And the final series of Borgen can be

:30:37.:30:42.

seen on BBC Four on Saturday night. Don't miss it.

:30:43.:30:46.

Columbia's Civil War has been raging for 50 years, the ideolgical

:30:47.:30:50.

struggle has involved thousands of child soldiers. A year ago peace

:30:51.:30:54.

talks began between the Government and the main guerrilla group, FARC.

:30:55.:31:00.

Since then more and more child combatants have demobilised, handing

:31:01.:31:03.

themselves over to the authorities. We have been to see some of these

:31:04.:31:07.

child soldiers, I must warn you that some of them have very disturbing

:31:08.:31:18.

tales to tell. Killing time in the Colombian jungle might look like any

:31:19.:31:27.

young boy's dream. Here the undergrowth is lush, and there is no

:31:28.:31:35.

shortage of sticks to fashion into guns. But these teenagers are

:31:36.:31:39.

showing us what life was really like as child soldiers. Only months ago

:31:40.:31:43.

they were fighting with armed rebel groups, against the Colombian

:31:44.:31:46.

Government. Carl Lord Chief Justices now 16, was

:31:47.:32:16.

a rebel commander with the armed group he fought for. We have had to

:32:17.:32:22.

protect his identity, he has received death threats for speaking

:32:23.:32:44.

out against former leaderss, now 16, was a rebel commander with the armed

:32:45.:32:47.

group he fought for. We have had to protect his identity, he has

:32:48.:32:49.

received death threats for speaking out against former leaders. Child

:32:50.:32:51.

combatants like him are deserting rebels at an alarming rate, heading

:32:52.:32:57.

for rehabilitation centres in the mountains. It is run by the very

:32:58.:33:01.

people they have been fighting against, the Government. With a --

:33:02.:33:13.

we are the first foreign journalists allowed in here. The children get to

:33:14.:33:17.

stay here and play here until they trust authority again. Some of them

:33:18.:33:24.

like Yolanda who is 16 have suffered unspeakable trauma. She was more

:33:25.:33:25.

comfortable talking to her There is life after the guerrillas,

:33:26.:34:05.

this woman spent three years as a child soldier, she was recruited by

:34:06.:34:10.

the FARC when she was 12, she now lives with her two daughters and

:34:11.:34:12.

younger sister. Some combatants were executed by

:34:13.:34:25.

their own commanders, she told me how new recruits were forced to

:34:26.:34:27.

watch. Children are still at risk of forced

:34:28.:36:08.

recruitment, people are worried. Here in central Columbia it is said

:36:09.:36:14.

the FARC lures children, handing out weapons, mobile phones and trainers.

:36:15.:36:18.

In return the army hands out gifts and leads kids around town. Strange

:36:19.:36:28.

as it seems this is the frontline in Columbia's conflict for children.

:36:29.:36:31.

Both the military and the guerrilla groups want to win over the young of

:36:32.:36:36.

this country. And persuade them not to fall into the hands of the other

:36:37.:36:38.

side. ? This football match organised by

:36:39.:36:54.

the army is meant to keep children out of trouble. The parents are

:36:55.:36:59.

worried about more than the final score.

:37:00.:37:20.

After years with the rebels it takes time to learn to trust others,

:37:21.:37:25.

especially those in a position of authority. Nice to meet you. This is

:37:26.:37:32.

where you live. Can I have a look? This is a charity-run rehabilitation

:37:33.:37:38.

programme for those who don't want the Government's projection. --

:37:39.:37:45.

protection. People like this girl who fought for the EPL, a small

:37:46.:37:52.

left-wing group, he was made commander at 14.

:37:53.:38:14.

The charity is sceptical of the Government's efforts to protect

:38:15.:38:20.

former combatants. The Government denies the

:38:21.:38:54.

allegations. Has the military ever had to use children, people under

:38:55.:39:00.

18, teenagers, as a means to gather information as informants if you

:39:01.:39:04.

like in rural communities? No. We don't use them, it is prohibited and

:39:05.:39:10.

we have not only our legal framework in Columbia ow bee -- but our

:39:11.:39:17.

internal regulation that prohibits using minors to any activities like

:39:18.:39:22.

the ones you just mentioned. We have the collaboration and co-operation

:39:23.:39:27.

of adults demobilised from the guerrilla groups, they have been

:39:28.:39:30.

very effective in providing information to continue the strategy

:39:31.:39:39.

against the FARC and the ELM. It is not known how many children are

:39:40.:39:47.

still fighting for the guerrillas. Thousands have already demobilised,

:39:48.:39:57.

adding to the pressure on the authorities. They are erasing the

:39:58.:40:04.

nightmares of the real wars in Columbia's jungle, but it could take

:40:05.:40:08.

many, many years. You can see a longer version of that report on Our

:40:09.:40:13.

World at the weekend on BBC News channel. He's an explorer who has

:40:14.:40:17.

been to hell and back. He has tested the limits of his endurance to the

:40:18.:40:23.

maximum, and lost many fingers to frostbite. Sir Ranulph Fiennes has

:40:24.:40:29.

led 30 expedition, and endured some of the coldest and most hostile

:40:30.:40:33.

conditions in the planet in pursuit of discovery. His new book is titled

:40:34.:40:44.

appropriately Cold. Cold, what does it feel like to be at minus 80? It

:40:45.:40:50.

is a different feeling. The English language should have a new word for

:40:51.:40:54.

it. You get very cold when you are in Wales, you can get hypothermia,

:40:55.:41:00.

but it isn't the same permanent desire to get into a foetal

:41:01.:41:04.

position. It makes you have very upset with the other person you

:41:05.:41:10.

might be with if he, normally it is a, if he's slow that day, and you

:41:11.:41:14.

are having to wait. You really get more unpleasant than you normally

:41:15.:41:18.

are with other people when it is like that. It is something that most

:41:19.:41:24.

people could never imagine. For you that endurance of the cold, do you

:41:25.:41:29.

think it has to take a special, as I would say in thoughts "throawn"

:41:30.:41:38.

character to do that? Not really. We choose people carefully. We like

:41:39.:41:43.

people who are placid, not thick. That is good to know your te members

:41:44.:41:47.

are not thick? They are ex-military which comes to the same sort of

:41:48.:41:51.

thing. We don't want them to get very excited when things are going

:41:52.:41:54.

well or down in the dumps when they are not. Is it an even temper? Yes.

:41:55.:42:01.

But you have put yourself through hell, and on your level hand you

:42:02.:42:07.

don't have the finished fingers any more. You had to actually medicate

:42:08.:42:12.

yourself for that, you had to do some chopping yourself in the

:42:13.:42:16.

fingers? That was back in the UK that was only because my late wife

:42:17.:42:19.

said I was getting very irritable because touching the mummified

:42:20.:42:23.

fingertips against anything was really painful. They don't amputate

:42:24.:42:29.

properly until five months after the thing happens. So in order to stop

:42:30.:42:36.

the pain I bought a Black Decker and microblade, my late wife brought

:42:37.:42:42.

me cups of tea and it took two days to get through the thumb by turning

:42:43.:42:48.

it around f it hurt or bled you moved the saw PURT away. That is one

:42:49.:42:54.

extreme, in terms of the achievements you have had in your

:42:55.:42:59.

expeditions, what has been the greatest one? The book goes back 300

:43:00.:43:02.

years, it was mainly funnily enough the Brits who kept wanting to know

:43:03.:43:06.

what the hell was north, where it was white and cold. They kept

:43:07.:43:10.

sending ships up there, more than any other nation and they didn't

:43:11.:43:15.

come back. Because they went up channels look ing for some

:43:16.:43:22.

commercial route in what is Canada and the ice closed in on the ships

:43:23.:43:27.

and they waited for summer, and they were there three or four years, they

:43:28.:43:32.

related to cannibalism, and scurvy went through them. Yet it was the

:43:33.:43:35.

Americans who claimed the North Pole and the Norwegians who claimed the

:43:36.:43:39.

south pole and 60 years after Scott our group decided we would get our

:43:40.:43:44.

own back and do the big polar expedition, which is to cross the

:43:45.:43:48.

whole of the Arctic, Antarctic, 52,000 miles, the only people have

:43:49.:43:53.

been around earth vertically and it took, we never flew one metre, it

:43:54.:43:57.

took three years of permanent travel and that was one of the ition one

:43:58.:44:02.

could say we were very relieved to succeed. Let me see your fingers,

:44:03.:44:08.

how does that hand operate in cold now, what happens now? I have done

:44:09.:44:18.

many expeditions with Dr Mike Stroud, we never used hand warmers

:44:19.:44:26.

by-election the south pole one year, Mike got hypo othermia at 52 degrees

:44:27.:44:32.

in the summertime. We never wore anything artificial. The idea being

:44:33.:44:37.

why wouldn't you have charcoal warmers? You could say it was

:44:38.:44:45.

cheating rather like us autoing wind as a means for pushing things along.

:44:46.:44:50.

Unsupported it unsupported. At the end of the book you say, "what is

:44:51.:44:54.

certain whether humans are involved or not is that global warming is a

:44:55.:45:01.

growing reality, cold as we know it is slowly but surely on the way

:45:02.:45:06.

out". That certainty about global warming, have you always had it

:45:07.:45:10.

since you started? No, in Antarctica it is not evident. You have two

:45:11.:45:16.

miles of ice sitting on 10,000 foot-high mountains. Even if the ice

:45:17.:45:20.

is getting less you can't see it. But up in the Arctic in the early

:45:21.:45:27.

1970s I designed sledges which might run into a bit of water so they

:45:28.:45:31.

needed to be waterproof. Several years after that I was designing

:45:32.:45:36.

canoes because there was more water than ice. Thank you very much. Now

:45:37.:45:39.

the front pages. The Prince is a friend of yours, are

:45:40.:45:45.

you going to wish him a happy birthday? A great patron.

:45:46.:46:12.

We leave you tonight with a story of 54-year-old Jim, a homeless

:46:13.:46:20.

alcoholic veteran with alcohol problems. He was given a makeover to

:46:21.:46:24.

raise awareness of a homeless charity. The video of his

:46:25.:46:29.

transformation has been viewed more than 30 million times on-line, and

:46:30.:46:37.

raising ?30,000. Jim is attending AA now and turning his life around.

:46:38.:46:48.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. One year on, have police commissioners made any difference? Plus the Chilcott Inquiry, the star of Borgen, former child soldiers in Columbia and Sir Ranulph Fiennes.


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