Browse content similar to 03/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
America warns it will isolate Russia, if it doesn't back out of | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
Crimea. But here the UK Government inadvertently shows its hand and | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
lets slip it has ruled out military action and tough financial sanction. | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
No wonder he looks confident and in command as he watches the Russian | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
army flexing their muscles. Here in Sevastopol Ukraine says Russian | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
forces have surrounded all of its bases on the peninsula, Russia | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
denies giving the Ukrainians an ultimatum to surrender by morning or | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
else. We will be live in Kiev asking the new Ukrainian Government what | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
they are going to do. We will hear from John McCain and voices from | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
around the world about where the crisis goes next. | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
The he had case secretary says he doesn't care how posh his cabinet | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
colleagues are, even if the voters do. It is an English disease to pay | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
too much attention to where someone went to school. From Benefits | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
Street, white White Dee, has the show changed her life and what does | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
the fame mean for her benefits? Good evening, reports tonight that Russia | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
has issued an ultimatum to the new Government in Ukraine to surrender | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
or face full military assault. In five hours that ultimate, then | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
denied by Russia, runs out. Tonight we will ask the interim Government | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
how it intends to respond. President Obama warned Russia it was on the | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
wrong side of history and threatened to isolate the superpower. Here a | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
document that has revealed the UK Government's hand and shows it is | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
unwilling to contemplate any military action or take tough | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
financial sanction. We have ask if the west has any power in this | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
conflict. First, Gabriel Gatehouse has been monitoring events in | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
Crimea, he joins us live. It is less than five hours now until | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
this supposed ultimatum runs out. The Ukrainians say they have heard | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
from Russians and they have been told their bases, now surrounded, | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
will be stormed if they don't vacate them by 5.00am local time. The | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
Russians say it is nonsense and they have no intention of doing any such | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
thing. Whatever the case this has perhaps the desired affect of making | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
everyone jittery, especially inside the bases. Interestingly, talking to | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
ordinary people here, despite all of this going on, many people genuinely | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
do feel pleased towards the presence of Russian forces here. But, they | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
know this is very, very tense and they know that any park could ignite | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
something and nobody here wants a war. We also heard today, again from | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
the Ukrainian authorities, about a supposed build up of Russian troops | :02:49. | :02:57. | |
on the east of the peninsula, just across Into Russia and many more | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
Russian troops coming over here, whatever the case we will see that | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
tomorrow. We have been travelling around the peninsula and seen that | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
the Russians have many of their own forces here, and many seem to have | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
come from the Black Sea base here in Sevastopol. Not a shot has been | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
fired. But in years to come historians may well write that this | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
was how Russia took back Crimea. What would once have been normal | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
every day scenes have now taken on a more frightening aspect. Russia's | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
Black Sea fleet leases its base here in Sevastopol from the Ukrainian | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
Government. Or at least it did. Now its forces aren't guests any more, | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
they have become the masters. On the road out of Sevastopol checkpoints | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
have appeared. These apparently manned by civilians, but they are | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
flying the Russian flag. Moscow's control now extends across the | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
peninsula. Ukraine says all of its military bases have been surrounded. | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
We were south of the capital shortly after the troops arrived. The | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
Ukrainian commander emerged from negotiations with his unseen Russian | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
counterpart. I asked him whether any of his men were prepared to | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
surrender? He told me no-one was surrendering, and it was a Ukrainian | :04:34. | :04:43. | |
brigade and that's that. And so, the stand-off began. The Russians have | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
called on the Ukrainians to vacate their bases. For now they are | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
holding out. Essentially they are prisoners behind their own gates. | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
The Russian troops are well armed and clearly well disciplined. Their | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
uniforms hold no clue as to their identity. But no-one is in any doubt | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
who they are. And many are glad they are here. TRANSLATION: We don't want | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
people to come here with their Molotov cocktails and create chaos | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
like they did in the capital. These troops are here to keep us safe. Not | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
everyone is in agreement. An argument broke out when one man | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
suggested the Russian soldiers were an occupying force. He was quickly | :05:35. | :05:43. | |
shouted down. As more Russian supporters arrived, Ukrainian | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
soldiers watched nervously from the top of the buildings. When we | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
returned today reinforcements seemed to have arrived, and yet more | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
flag-waving supporters blocking movement on and off the base. And | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
so, the Ukrainian troops are relying on locals to rePlehnish their | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
supplies. We watched a Lada deliver shopping to the besieged Ukrainians | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
with the tacit agreement of the Russians, every soldier understands | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
the need to eat. TRANSLATION: Everyone knows perfectly well whom | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
Crimea belongs to, says I can't imagine these guys are pleased to be | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
here es. He added that pointing to the Russians. These men are Crimeas | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
tartares, they fear a Russian takeover. To understand why you have | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
to come to this place. The capital of the Crimea area when the Tartas | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
ruled the peninsula from the 16th century, all of that came to the end | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
with Russia's southward expansion under the Tsars. For many crimian | :07:00. | :07:07. | |
people this is still their home and repositry of their history. | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
Katherine the great's conquests is celebrated here as a great | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
historical event, one that puts Crimea within the Russian umpire for | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
more than two centuries. But for the cry mean -- the people here, this | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
was just one in a series of tragedies that be fell them under | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
Russian rule. This woman is 84 years old, she was 11 when Stalin ordered | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
the whole population to be deported, he suspected them of collaborating | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
with the Nazis. They were herded on to freight trains bound for | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
Uzbekistan. The memory is still painful. The people only returned | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
after Ukraine gained its independence from the Soviet Union. | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
She says the thought of another conflict with the Russians is simply | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
unbearable. She wouldn't wish it on her worst enemy, just let there not | :08:08. | :08:17. | |
be war, she says. This evening Ukrainian naval officers began | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
barricading themselves inside their head quarters in anticipation of a | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
possible Russian assault. Earlier they gathered in the parade ground, | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
to hear an appeal from their new Admiral, not to heed Russian calls | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
to abandon their posts. They tried to break our lines of communication, | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
to break our lines of supply and to, they do a severe psychological | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
pressure on our personnel to betray our motherland. Many people here are | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
deeply suspicious of the new Government in Kiev, and the way in | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
which the previous one was overthrown. Russia may have lost an | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
ally when Viktor Yanukovych was toppled in Kiev, but in a sense they | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
got what they really needed out of him. One of the first things | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
Yanukovych did when he came into office in 2010 was to extend | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
Moscow's lease on this base, right into the middle of this century. | :09:14. | :09:21. | |
There were those Ukrainian politicians on the nationalist side | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
who argued against it and said this base was a Trojan horse, and so | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
indeed it has turned out to be. Not for the first time in history, | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
Crimea finds itself at an epicentre of conflict with great global | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
powers. While the west scrambles to calibrate a response, Russia is busy | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
creating facts on the ground. In Washington tonight, could we be | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
seeing signals of a tougher stance. President Obama's ambassador to the | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
UN promised to stand strongly and proudly with the people of Ukraine | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
at the UN Security Council meeting tonight. We will pass to Washington | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
and speak to John McCain, the former Republican Presidential Candidate | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
who sits on the Senate foreign relations committee. Thank you very | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
much for joining us. Are you hearing tough words from America tonight? | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
I'm hearing a lot of rhetoric, so far the only action to be taken is | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
to boycott the preparatory meeting to take place of the G8. There is a | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
lot of rhetoric, but I frankly don't see a lot of action. What do you | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
think should happen? I think we should do a lot of things, beginning | :10:33. | :10:43. | |
with a fundamental revamping of our policy towards Mr Putin. Our | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
President has been incredibly niave in his dealings with him. The reset, | :10:49. | :10:59. | |
the overheard conversation with him and Medevev, saying tell him he | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
would be more flexible. This is not east-west or Cold War, Mr Putin said | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
the greatest disaster of the 20th century was the fall of the Soviet | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
Union. He believes this is east-west, he believes it is Cold | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
War and he believes that Crimea and particularly the base is essential | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
to the old Russian empire which he continues to seek. How do you | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
respond to western powers who will rule out military I engagment, or | :11:29. | :11:37. | |
indeed tough financial sanctions? I rule out military action, it is just | :11:38. | :11:45. | |
not an option that would be viable. This is the result of five years | :11:46. | :11:53. | |
niave relations with Russia. If the Europeans decide that the economic | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
considerations are too important to then impose severe sanctions on | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
Vladimir Putin, which you get from the statement from Angela Merkel | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
today, then they are ignoring the lessons of history. If Vladimir | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
Putin is allowed to take this Crimea, because of protecting | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
"Russian population", do you remember back in the 1930s when | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
Hitler took Czechoslovakia and other places because of the German | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
population, and finally could I say there are significant Russian | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
populations in the Baltic countries and Poland and Romania. Russia will | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
say at this point that the west stood by whilst a democratically | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
elected Government in Ukraine was overthrown, not even stood by, but | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
supported that coup? I think that when you see what Yanukovych did | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
with his corruption and his repression and killing of people, he | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
forfeited all legitimacy in the eyes of anybody who has been objective | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
view. They can say that pigs fly, but the fact that Yanukovych | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
forfeited any claim he may have it to governing the country. Tonight we | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
saw developments from the UK Government, inadvertently, that | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
showed they were not for now supporting trade sanctions or | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
closing the financial centre to Russians, is that the right | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
approach? Of course not. Of course not. I'm not astonished, to be frank | :13:31. | :13:39. | |
with you. Disappointed but not astonished. Here in the United | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
States we have a bill which targets people with sanctions and with | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
penalties who are responsible. We can renew the missile defence | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
systems that we abandoned in an attempt to appease Putin and in the | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
Czech Republic and Poland. I think we can do a lot of things, if | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
necessary, unilaterally. Thank you very much indeed for your time for | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
joining us this evening. Our diplomatic editor joins me now, | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
and we have also been looking at the market implications. There is | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
diplomatic embarrassment here, certainly for the Government from | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
those documents that were spied, that essentially, removed some key | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
tools? Well, you have a situation and let as face it, it is not a new | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
one, where the members of the EU in particular, there was a foreign | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
ministers meeting today in Brussels of the EU not agreeing on the way | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
forward. You have Poland in particular in both EU and NATO | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
insitsing that people address this -- insisting that people address | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
this question and in a resolute American. On the other side of the | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
equation we know in this meeting, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
were all against taking sanctions against Russia. Having heard all | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
that we see the documents, glimpsed on the way into Downing Street for a | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
National Security Council meeting, excluding on the one hand anything | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
that would have a negative effect on trade relations between the two | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
countries, and then, with regard to what NATO might do, ruling out even | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
planning for some sort of military preparation. Even the window | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
dressing, if you like, was ruled out by the British Government. In this | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
situation, once again, we look at precedents like the Balkan wars, | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
people will look to the Americans, and judging from the language being | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
used in the UN tonight by their ambassador and by President Obama | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
today, there is more likely to be some substantive American movement | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
on this issue, perhaps Magnitski act or clauses, perhaps something that | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
goes the G8 issue. I think we should look to Washington in the next day | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
or two on this. Laura, I'm wondering how relevant any of these threened | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
sanctions are from bodies and Governments when the facts on the | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
ground in terms of the markets are so stark? As the diplomacy grinds | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
away ineffectively, the markets are different, they are live beasts. We | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
have seen a harsher verdict on what is going on and Putin's credibility. | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
The rouble fell to record lose, Russian stocks had huge amounts of | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
money wiped off them. On the streets of Russian cities there were stories | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
of exchange booths running out of dollars, as some Russians themselves | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
sought to get their roubles out and turn them into a safe currency. We | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
are kidding ourselves if we think this is some how happening in | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
isolation. One former director of the Bank of England says he thinks | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
it is certain Ukraine will default. One of our biggest companies, BP, | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
huge stakeholder in the biggest oil company in the world. It lost huge | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
amounts of value from its company today. The biggest thing is oil | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
prices, already in the last couple of weeks they have been shoved up. | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
That has been impact on almost everything, our FTSE, the French, | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
the German markets. The markets are nervy and they don't like it. This | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
is hurting Russia too, what does Putin's end game become. We have | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
heard several things where is it going? The whole question is so | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
repleat with history. We saw in Gabriel Gatehouse's report, the | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
sense in which Ukraine and Crimea are part of Russia's history. There | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
are people in Russia who want to reabsorb the country, that is | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
clearly not on the cards in the near future. I think the key things that | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
Russia wants in the near future is to have an important influence in | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
the shaping of this country and of the Government that follows. Some | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
people think they are trying to get the constitution turned into a more | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
federal one, where Russian speak he is in the east of the country have | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
far more -- speakers in the east of the country have far more influence | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
and can influence decision making in the Ukraine. With Crimea with | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
separate status within Ukraine, the question has to be open whether that | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
will be in some sense absorbed by Russia. That's the theory, what do | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
those on the front line make of it. Joining me down the line from Kiev | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
is Ukraine's interim economics minister. Was there an ultimatum, | :18:22. | :18:30. | |
what did you understand by it earlier today? Can you repeat the | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
question once again? We understood there was an ultimatum issued from | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
Russia? It seems like the ultimatum has expired and nothing serious has | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
happened. We survived the first ultimatum, it is not the first and | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
won't be the last one. How do you read what Russia has done so far? We | :18:51. | :19:00. | |
read if that is not an intervention, then what is? How will you respond? | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
We respond like during the last week, keeping calm, we believe that | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
this escalation has to be deescalated. Exclusively and only | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
through the peaceful means. Through negotiations, through the | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
discussions, we want to figure out what is the reason of this | :19:23. | :19:31. | |
escalation. The Ukraine is governing itself. Like any other nation it | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
discusses in a democratic way, we don't really understand why Russia | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
is so concerned. Russia is on your military base, do you call that | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
negotiation? Well we do not particularly like that Russia is at | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
our military bases, it should be at its own military base. How far will | :19:55. | :20:04. | |
you let Russia go before you take action we really hope that Russia | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
will seize these actions. These unfriendly actions. Come on, we live | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
together, virtually peacefully almost through the whole history | :20:18. | :20:28. | |
that we had. We are brotherly and orthodox nations, so I think that it | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
is some kind of you know, we treat it as some kind of misunderstanding | :20:33. | :20:42. | |
maybe Russia did not read properly the signals and events happening in | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
Kiev. For some reason they took it as the offence against them as if | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
they were moving completely westward, against Russia, which is | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
absolutely not true. What was happening in the main square in | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
Midan is our absolutely internal issue, we were just protesting | :21:02. | :21:09. | |
against the corruption and against the violation of human rights and | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
actually killing human lives. That is what we are protesting against. | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
Let me just clarify then, it sounds from what you are saying that you | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
are ruling out any kind of military response to what is going that there | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
now, is that right? The Ukrainian Government does not plan to use any | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
kind of military response because we do not believe it is the right way | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
to solve the issue. This issue should be solved only through | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
peaceful means. We are being provoked already for five or six | :21:44. | :21:51. | |
days, and I really command the calm and the strength of the Ukrainian | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
forces that did not allow to be provoked. | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
Let's hear now from the Kremlin former adviser, and Ming Campbell. | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
We did have the former US Ambassador but he has sadly just left our | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
studio without an explanation, perhaps we can shed a bit more light | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
on that. You have heard the charge against you, five or six days of | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
provokation on sovereign Ukraine land. What is Russia doing there? | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
First of all you are forgetting that we have had a coup in Kiev. Which | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
was financed and encouraged and senator McCain was there during the | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
protests, encouraging those protesters to continue. With | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
protesters killed on the streets? And protestors shooting at police, | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
and by the way 20 police dead means protesters were armed. We have to | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
stop and count the dead people. I think the problem here is this, | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
everyone is asking what is President Putin's end game, I would like to | :23:04. | :23:15. | |
ask in return what is the west's end gam What is the end game of the | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
Government in now in Ukraine because it was waiting for billions to come | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
from the west. And now it doesn't know what to do. All day the | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
ultimatum the western press was banging on about, it was denied by | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
the minister of defence in Russia and said it was nonsense, yet it was | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
reported all day. You are showing the Security Council of the UN | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
gathering, who called for that meeting? Russia, not a word | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
anywhere. Let me set something straight, Yanukovych wrote to Russia | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
saying military action is visible in the Ukraine in Crimea, is this is | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
what happened? Yanukovych it doesn't matter what he wrote. He was the | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
legitimate President and Joan thrown by a coup. What he wrote, if he was | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
a legitimate President what he wrote was obviously of significance. What | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
do we want? We want the people of Ukraine to have the opportunity to | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
determine their own future without the influence of Russia. And of | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
course we know, last time round, it was south Ossetia, there is always | :24:18. | :24:30. | |
an excuse for intervention for political reasons. I think it is | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
inexcusable in the UK that a document is photographed going into | :24:36. | :24:37. | |
Downing Street. It is particularly significant in this case, since | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
military options are ruled out and there are not many shots in the | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
locker but economic sanctions would be one of those. That was foolish on | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
two counts? You show your hand in a democratic exchange of this kind | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
uncertainty is enormously important and significant. Particularly when | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
we hear that the Moscow Stock Exchange has collapsed and the | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
rouble is under severe pressure, the economy is the soft underbelly of | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
Russia in this matter. I wonder how you think this is going for Putin | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
now, when you look at the state of Gazprom shares or the rouble, is | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
this going according to plan? Putin had to respond. It would have been | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
political suicide for Putin not to respond. It could be economic | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
suicide the way he's going? That would be a disaster. A | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
western-backed coup would have been a disaster. A western-backed | :25:33. | :25:40. | |
disaster? The credibility of the country is not based on President | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
Putin. There is a breach of the United Nations charter, they are | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
talking about regime change. These are the very people when it came to | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
President Assad's regime in Syria, allow me to finish. What about Libya | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
and Syria. Let him finish his point. You can't talk about that on Ukraine | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
on your conscience there is Iraq, Libya and Syria, I'm sorry. I have a | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
conscience about Iraq and I will not take any challenge to the contrary | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
from you. But these are the people who when it came to trying to deal | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
with President Assad's regime said they, went out of their way to veto | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
or said they would veto any suitable UN resolution. Why? Because they | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
said it would amount to regime change, they are practising regime | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
change at the moment. There is me moral authority with Putin's actions | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
it looked like bare-chested thuggery? No it doesn't, nobody is | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
planning to invade. They have invaded. So this is not invasion? Of | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
course it is not an invasion. What do you call this when you occupy or | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
stand on the edge of every single military installation? I would call | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
an invasion is Kiev when armed thugs were killing policemen and troops. | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
Did you hear any shot fired in Crimea, or anyone hurt or anything. | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
The reason the bases are surrounded because in other cities in the | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
Ukraine they stole arms from those bases. This is a very strange set of | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
affairs, we have not had one shot? That's a good thing. We shouldn't be | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
surprised by that. Of course I'm responding to this here? Because in | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
circumstances like those we are talking about, provokation or | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
miscalculation can result in a shot. If we have one shot we will probably | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
have a conflag grace. Does it tell you that Putin's approach is a | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
benign one if he doesn't want to make sure of the people of Crimea? I | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
must say the use of the word "benign" in these circumstances does | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
take me aback. The garrisons are being surrounded, people are being | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
told by their commanding officer they have to give up their loyalty | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
to Kiev, give up their loyalty to Ukraine and subordinate that loyalty | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
to Putin and those acting on his behalf. That is not benign in any | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
circumstance. Where is safe, if Crimea is not safe from this kind of | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
approach, where else in the Ukraine is safe, are there any borders? | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
Crimea is part of the country. Because not a single time in the | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
past the people of Crimea were given a chance for a referendum, | :28:16. | :28:23. | |
Khrushchev, a murderous thug, hold on, threw away Crimea to the | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
Ukraine, you know why? Because he killed and presided over the MRDers | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
of so many Ukrainians, he had to give them a President. Nobody asked | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
the people in Crimea where theyn't wanted to be, they were given them | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
away. Nobody asked the people of Georgia, or South Ossetia, they | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
should have been the subject of a Russian takeover. I'm sorry. They | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
were provoked. It was with American money and weapons. They were | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
provoked into doing it, you know that. | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
We will leave it there, thank you very much we understand that John | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
Bolton had a prior engagment he had to hurry away to. | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
The English are obsessed with their old school, suggested the Education | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
Secretary today, calling the habit an English disease. Michael Gove | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
defended the number of old Eatonians in the cabinet, and said it was | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
indefensible that so many actors and board members were privately | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
educated. He dismissed his critics of state schools as being a bit di | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
As far as higher education is going on the visit to Formula One | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
manufacturers, McLaren, he told us that middle-class parents should | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
aspire for their children to be apprentices and insists businesses | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
provided more places. You have said this morning there is no excuse for | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
businesses not to take on apprentices, what happens if they | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
don't? Business has said in the past, apprenticeships have been too | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
bureaucratic and the method of funding apprenticeships hasn't | :29:55. | :29:56. | |
necessarily suited us. We have removed that. There is no excuse. | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
And if businesses choose not to engage they will have to justify | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
themselves in the public square. Should there be any comeback. You | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
say they ought to justify themselves in the public square, what do you | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
mean, should there be comeback for those who want to engage? It | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
shouldn't be that we penalise them, it is in the self-interest of any | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
company to engage with the apprenticeship programme. We should | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
ask business what they are doing to play a bigger part in the education | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
system. In policy terms I would say it is a nudge rather than a direct | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
intervention. If you look at a Rolls-Royce or British air he row | :30:35. | :30:42. | |
space apprenticeships, it is better to go there than a university. It is | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
a superior option to university, it provides not just an experience of | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
the work place and income, but also with the level of intellectual | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
challenge greater than some universities. Many apprenticeships | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
are noin that sphere. Today advertised on the Internet swathes | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
of apprenticeships, they were jobs but are now apprenticeships paying | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
?2. 90. Are you saying you want parents to aspire to that for their | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
children in the same way as they would aspire to universities? | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
Absolutely situate rite that parents should want their children to have | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
the option certainly to go to university, at the same time I don't | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
think there is anything wrong and there is a lot that's admirable | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
about saying you want to experience the world of work. You are in a | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
sense trying to change aspiration. You in your speech made a link | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
between vocational and academic education and working and | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
middle-class children. It is a class issue isn't it? We have had, I | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
think, a damaging view in this country that success, narrowly | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
designed as academic success, is only available to a limited number. | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
As you know, that view doesn't hold and hasn't held in other countries | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
from Scotland to Singapore. It is not a class issue, it is an England | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
issue. It is one we have to overcome if we're going to make sure that | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
every child achieves their full potential. Specifically an English | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
issue in your view? It is an English problem that we have not valued the | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
practical and technical in the same way as we value the academic. I | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
think it is an English issue that we have an unequal education system, | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
with opportunity distributed in such a way as to mean that children who | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
go to independent fee-paying schools and the best state schools have many | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
more opportunities than children who have gone to other state schools, | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
but that is changing. Some people might suggest that the picture has | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
gone into reverse around the cabinet table, even many of your own MPs | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
believe that the very top bracket of politics, the cabinet table and the | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
Prime Minister's team is far too dominated by those who have been | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
privately educated? It is a consequence, isn't t of the | :32:54. | :32:55. | |
education system that we have inherited. David Cameron isn't | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
responsible for the school to which he went, neither is George Osborne. | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
The fact that we had social mobility go backwards in this country was a | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
consequence of some mistic it is a we made in the education system in | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
the 1960s and 1970s. Are you suggesting there aren't people with | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
equivalent abilities in the rest of the Conservative Party. There are | :33:18. | :33:19. | |
many Conservative backbenchers who argue this is a problem? There are | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
certainly people, it is an English disease to pay too close attention | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
to where someone went to school, but, since we are, if you are | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
sitting round the cabinet stable, then some of the voices who are most | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
influential come from those people who have not come from guilded and | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
privileged backgrounds. It is defensible to have so many private | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
companies run by public schoolgirls and boys. Is it defensible that so | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
many actors, sports stars to whom our children are encouraged to | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
aspire come from private schools. It is not defensible, of course, so we | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
need to change. Does it disappoint you that the warm-up for the next | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
Conservative leadership contest, which is evidenced all over the | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
place now also seems to be playing out between two public school boys? | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
I'm not aware of any speculation about leadership other than the | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
choice between David Cameron and Ed Miliband in the next election. | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
Haven't you been reading the papers? You will have to quote me the | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
speculation, the only leadership question that counts is whether or | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
not we want David Cameron or Ed Miliband leading this country after | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
the next election. You described in this speech this extraordinary place | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
as being like a Bond villain's layer. Do you care that quite | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
significant swathes of the educational establishment, | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
professional people, see you as a bit of a villain in terms of what | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
you are doing, does it bother you? I don't go out of my way to solicit or | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
invite opposition, you will never get unanimity about any set of | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
political changes until after the politician driving them through has | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
long left the field. The argument I find is that some people say | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
sometimes your changes are too great in scope and introduced too rapidly. | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
But no-one, that I'm a ware of, has been -- aware of has been able to | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
argue against higher standards in schools, more autonomy for head | :35:19. | :35:26. | |
teachers, and or rigorous exams. The opposition you allude to tend to be | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
the inertia of defenders of the status quo, rather than a desection | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
of anything we are doing. -- desection of anything we are doing. | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
She was the biggest thing to come out of Benefits Street, a Channel | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
four reality show that showed one street in Birmingham that rocked to | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
infamy. Today we ask White Dee, the self-styled mother of the street | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
what she made of the show and how it has changed her life and community. | :35:57. | :36:07. | |
She has been described as the Queen of Benefits Street, the one-woman | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
citizens advice bureau, and the patron saint of drug addicts and | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
dropouts. White Dee became the star of Benefits Street with their fourth | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
right advice on everything, from staying sober to dealing with the | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
benefits office. Suspending your claim because there is a change in | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
your income. Don't worry about it. The self-pro-claimed mother of | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
Benefits Street, a convicted street who has been out of work for seven | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
years, has divided opinion and generated headlines almost as much | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
as the series itself. Since it has broadcast, the show has triggered | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
impassions debate, about the exploitation of poor people for | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
entertainment, the rights and wrongs of the benefit system in its | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
entirety. And whether or not the show's protaganists were misled | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
about the show. It was clear about the nature of the programme, why | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
they were and the end product. What does the unlikely celebrity at the | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
heart of it, now with a PR manager, calling her a "working-class hero", | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
really feel about how they were portrayed. With news of a music | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
deal, a plus size modelling opportunity and Big Brother house, | :37:18. | :37:25. | |
and a chance to become an MP, what now for White Dee and her benefits. | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
How has your life changed over the last couple of months? It hasn't | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
personally changed in the way that I'm still, you know, I'm still a mum | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
of two children. But it is like being thrown into the limelight when | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
you are just not completely, you are not used to it at all, is just a | :37:47. | :37:54. | |
real shock. Does it feel like -- Does it feel like things are better | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
or worse? Busier, I wouldn't say better. Everyone knows you, the | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
street has turned into a bit of a tourist attraction. You cannot drive | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
up and down that road on a Saturday or a Sunday. So this is the poverty | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
porn in action is it, do you understand why that phrase came | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
about? Not particularly. We still dispute the fact and we would argue | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
to Channel four that at no time whatsoever did they tell us it was | :38:29. | :38:36. | |
in any way related to benefits. With regards to "poverty porn", we don't | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
class ourselves as in poverty. We are fine we survive with the help | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
and support of each other. So they never told you it was about | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
benefits? No they did not. When did they tell you it was going to be | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
called Benefits Street? About two weeks before the show aired. It | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
wasn't done officially. Somebody just let slip that it was called | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
Benefits Street and that's when we all went absolutely mad. We went... | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
What did you think it would be called? They asked us for | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
suggestions as to what maybe we think the show would be called. Some | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
said Friends With Benefits, others said We Will Survive. The kids made | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
their Ghetto This, the teenagers. Why bother asking us if they knew | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
what they were going to call it. When you found out it was going to | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
be called Benefits Street, you said you went mad. Did anyone try to | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
change that or pull the show or step in? Obviously we hadn't viewed the | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
episodes by the time, when we actually found out it was going to | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
be called benefits street. We did make calls to Channel four and Love | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
Production. Not just me a few of the residents. At the end of the day | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
they had named the show what they wanted to name the show. So no | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
matter what we did, they had no intentions of pulling it or renaming | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
it. They told us that this was a fair and balanced reflection of life | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
on the street, would you go with that? No. What would you call it? | :40:08. | :40:14. | |
How could it be fair and balanced when basically all they are doing is | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
focussing on four or five people. Most of the people they have | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
focussed on don't actually live on the street. They spent time with | :40:24. | :40:31. | |
many a working couple, pensioners. So they didn't live on the street? | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
No, they did, but quite a few people that were shown in the programme | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
don't live on the street. They told us that contributors were briefed | :40:42. | :40:51. | |
extensively before the show was aired. And they had been in regular | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
contact since? They didn't brief us extensively about the name of the | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
show. They briefed you about the show? No, basically we have a local | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
councillor who has written confirmation saying the show is | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
about community spirit. There are quite a few people who have it in | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
writing what the show was supposedly about and it wasn't benefits. At the | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
end of this experience, how do you view Channel 4 and the show itself | :41:19. | :41:27. | |
then? They were very clever. Obviously we can't regret. We have | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
done it, it has happened. People are talking about it. But basically I | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
think it is just the fact that it is sort of them against us. You know. | :41:37. | :41:45. | |
We have no reason to lie, you never said it to us. Did they lie to you? | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
Yes they did. People will be watching this and saying you, many | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
on your street have done pretty well from this, you have rocketed to | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
fame, you must be making money from this now aren't you? Not | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
necessarily. It is, a lot of people do presume, they presume that the | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
second you appear on the telly, all of a sudden you are getting money. | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
It doesn't work like that. Am I getting paid for sitting here | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
tonight? Your agent said that you have had a lot of offers as a result | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
of this? I have had a lot of offers, yeah. Are those offers that you are | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
getting paid for? Not all of them, no. But you are getting paid now? If | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
I accepted the offers then yes I would, I haven't accepted anything | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
at all at the moment. So you haven't made any money yet from this? As of | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
this precise moment in time, no. Why not? Because I don't know, it is | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
like if someone offers me to go on a radio station, basically I will go | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
on the radio station. I'm having to justify myself. And say what you | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
have seen is a little bit of my life. You are still on benefits now, | :43:03. | :43:11. | |
do you intend to stay on benefits? Not if I start getting an income. Is | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
that the direction you would like to go in now, you would like to earn | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
money from this now and come off benefits? Not necessarily from this. | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
But obviously I would like to get a job, yeah. A lot of people will be | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
watching and saying hang on a second, you are on ?214 a week, why | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
carry on claiming those when you, offers have been coming in, we know, | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
we have spoken to your agent that says there are offers on the table | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
now which could mean you could leave the life behind, why wouldn't you | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
take that? I don't want to leave my life behind. Your life on benefits | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
though? That is a different kettle of fish. Just because there are | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
offers on the table it doesn't mean I'm going to get money today, | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
tomorrow or next week. But you are still getting money from the | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
taxpayer then as things stand? I'm still on benefits because I'm not | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
receiving any other income at the moment. You have been asked to be on | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
Big Brother, is that something you will take up? Not necessarily. I | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
have a lot to think about, it is like they have approached, they | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
haven't made any offer. I don't know any figures involved. I haven't | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
signed anything. What about other jobs, the doors must be open to you | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
to do a lot of other things now. Are you applying for other jobs now? I'm | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
not applying for jobs at the moment. I still have my down days and up | :44:35. | :44:44. | |
days. I have just been thrown into the public and I just I'm not 100% | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
sure how to cope with it, I have never been in this situation before | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
with people wanting to talk to you and interview you and I have just | :44:55. | :45:03. | |
never, you know, it at thes completely new to me -- it's | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
completely new to me. Thank you for coming and talking to | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
us. We're going to take you through a look at some of the papers before | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
we da tonight. There is one which has taken the front page of the | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
Daily Mail. Child porn Number Ten aide arrested. They are saying one | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
of David Cameron's closest aides has resigned after being arrested on | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
child pornography allegations. Perhaps we can go to Laura. You have | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
been looking at this, can you shed any more light? Number Ten has | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
confirmed that one of David Cameron's advisers, Patrick Rock, | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
the deputy director of policy was arrested in the middle of last month | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
over allegations of child pornography and potential abuses | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
relating to child abuse imagery. He resigned immediately and not in his | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
post, Number Ten has arranged for police officers to go in and look at | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
files or IT that they see as being appropriate. From what we understand | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
there were previous allegations of harassment made against Mr Rock | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
while he was working in Downing Street where he has been since 2011. | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
Not associated to these potential charges, but interesting | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
nonetheless. This is tricky, embarrassing loss for Number Ten. | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
Not just because of the humiliation of the police having to go into | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
Downing Street over such kinds of allegations and also because when he | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
went into Downing Street he was seen as someone well trusted. He had been | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
in the Conservative Party for a long time and had been close to David | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
Cameron for a long time. They were special advisers together back in | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
the late 1990s. This is an embarrassment and blow for the Prime | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
Minister. , the I arrest of his -- the arrest of his fixer, Patrick | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
Rock. Any word from him th evening? No official statement. One of the | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
things that makes it doubly awkward is he was involved in advising the | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
Prime Minister on child internet pornography. Anything awkward but | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
right to point out we have no official statement from Mr Rock | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
himself. That is all for tonight, but Kirsty is here with much more | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
tomorrow. From all of us here good night. | :47:27. | :47:30. |