Browse content similar to 13/05/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's a Titanic battle for what we are told is a vitally important | :00:00. | :00:10. | |
British company. But the boss of AstraZeneca admits to Newsnight that | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
for all his posturing he will sell the company to Pfizer if the price | :00:15. | :00:24. | |
is right. We can't hold out to do a deal, because ultimately we have to | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
represent the interests of shareholders. This Nobel | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
Prize-winning scientist thinks a cut in research will be inevitable and | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
will be disastrous. In his own words, the life of a gang | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
member on a London estate. I remember seeing one of them with a | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
machete, I thought he was Superman and try my hardest to disarm him and | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
end up using it on him. That did not work. And Debbie Harry talks to us | :00:51. | :00:59. | |
about 40 years of Blondie. # Soon found out | :01:00. | :01:00. | |
# A pain in the ass! If the great American pharmaceutical | :01:01. | :01:15. | |
company, Pfizer, succeeds in its attempt to take over the British | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
drugs manufacturer, AstraZeneca, jobs will vanish and combined | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
research spending will probably fall. That much was confirmed today | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
by Pfizer's boss when he appeared before MPs. Although it may have | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
been frank, that did little to reassure much of the political class | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
who have been worrying very publicly that however good the takeover might | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
be for shareholders, it could be catastrophe for British science. Yet | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
the boss of the British company he's stalking, although he turned up with | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
a had he rehearsed story of the damage done to public health has | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
other concerns all together. How is this for corporate speak? Pfizer | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
gives employees their own special coin to carry, one side stamped the | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
words "own it", to encourage accountability, on the other is | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
etched "straight talk", apparently to empower staff. But MPs and | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
employees of the rival Pfizer is trying to buy, rather hoped for both | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
from its boss Ian Reid. REPORTER: Good morning Mr Reid why should MPs | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
here in Britain be able to he is trust your assurances on jobs? I'm | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
looking forward to talking to the committee today. What chance of | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
Pfizer's promises on jobs coming unstuck? The commitment of 20% of a | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
global company's R in the UK is an unprecedented commitment. Yes, but | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
in terms of numbers that is no hard commitment to either sustain or | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
increase the numbers employed. There is a hard commitment of how many | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
employees are successful growing company is prepared to put in the | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
UK. Your two previous sizeable increases in company size have meant | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
a sizeable reduction each time in the number of jobs? We will be | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
efficient by some reduction in jobs, what I cannot tell you is how much | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
or how many or where. You must have some indication and forward planning | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
about the number of such staff you are going to drop, how many? I can't | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
tell you today how many people are going to be in research and | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
development in the combined company. I haven't even seen the books of | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
AstraZeneca. So far so not quite clear on job numbers. But what about | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
that big fat tax cut? Pfizer stands to gain if they global gobble up the | :03:33. | :03:41. | |
firm? That is sensitive information and premature to disclose that this | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
early in the process. Would you agree there is substantial tax | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
benefits to your company and their shareholders if this merger goes | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
ahead? Yes there are. Thank you. Mr Reid was short on specifics, but the | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
committee was introduced to that special corporate coin. Remember the | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
one Pfizer's staff get to keep in their pockets. But MPs believed he | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
flipped it the wrong way. I believe you span it this morning and got | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
"own it", and we haven't had the level of straight talk we needed, | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
perhaps you should toss is again when you come tomorrow. I can | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
straight talk right now. Ian Reid had more than an hour trying to | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
answer repeated questions fromp. He said again and again he's a man of | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
his word and he can trust the commitments. But the sense was that | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
MPs inside just did not believe him. MPs were entirely more sympathetic | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
to the Frenchman in charge of the British company AstraZeneca. He | :04:40. | :04:47. | |
claimed the proprosed takeover of his business pritt bithe Americans | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
could claim lives and it could delay the release of certain drugs. One of | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
the medicines was delayed and a father died from lung cancer, it was | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
relaid because in the meantime the two companies were involved in | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
savings costs and taxes. Quite a charge. Pfizer's desire to save tax | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
could harm patients, later I asked him if he was willing to stick to | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
it. You say lives are at risk if the deal goes ahead, is an emotive way | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
to get your way on this and push it away? I'm only highlighting | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
potential risks associated with this transaction. You know, we have a | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
very broad portfolio, we built it over the last 18 months and we have | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
made enormous progress. We have a few product that is are really | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
exciting and moving very quickly, and addressing cancer types for | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
think which there is no option today. Isn't it the case though that | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
if the price was right, you would accept this deal? We will consider | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
proposals, offers that are made to us in the context of the value, the | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
price that's offered and the potential other terms. But certainly | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
the price that is offered is a very important dimension. But you can't | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
rule out doing a deal then? We have a if you had dubry duty - fiduciary | :06:13. | :06:22. | |
duty and we have to represent the shareholder, if the price reflected | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
is good for the company and justifies the transaction and tax, | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
we will have to make a positive recommendation. You would recommend | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
a deal even though you say the disruption could cause lives? The | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
disruption is substantial but manageable, but it is certainly a | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
big risk that we would have to manage as best we can. Ultimately we | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
have a large number of stakeholders that we are responsible to, but of | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
course very importantly our shareholders, so the value that is | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
offered we will certainly have to consider. You have said the | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
disruption is manageable if the price is right? It is a risk, that | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
is what I'm saying, what we are looking at is an overall proposal | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
that reflects the value and the operating model. We don't know what | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
the operating model will look like and how we would conduct the | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
business of the new company. Therefore it is hard for us to | :07:23. | :07:24. | |
understand whether we would be able to manage this risk or not. Pfizer | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
are committing for five years, how long do your commitments to jobs and | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
investment in the UK run? Our commitment | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
investment in the UK run? Our UK is ten years, 20, 30 | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
investment in the UK run? Our committed to this country. We | :07:40. | :07:40. | |
investment in the UK run? Our you butt this isn't some kind | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
investment in the UK run? Our David versus Golaith battle, you are | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
investment in the UK run? Our companies, both of whom who have | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
investment in the UK run? Our made job cuts in recent years in | :07:56. | :07:55. | |
investment in the UK run? Our UK. Both of whom are taking | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
advantage of UK tax rules U said this morning you didn't pay any | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
corporation tax here last year? I think we have gone through a | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
transition, suddenly we have, you know very well we have our own | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
challenges in terms of revenue. But challenges in terms of revenue. But | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
I think we have made the point clear that we are reaching the end of our | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
transition, we that we are reaching the end of our | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
pipeline, we are going to be launching new products over the next | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
few years and we want to return to growth as quickly as possible. | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
few years and we want to return to you very much for talking to us. | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
Now we have a physicist at the University of Manchester, who won a | :08:33. | :08:34. | |
Nobel Prize for University of Manchester, who won a | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
FRAF even if, a virtually University of Manchester, who won a | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
graphene, a virtually indetruckedable material made from a | :08:46. | :08:47. | |
layer of atoms, and guest from Oxford. | :08:48. | :08:54. | |
The kerfuffle is all about the future of science in this country, | :08:55. | :08:55. | |
if the takeover future of science in this country, | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
share that worry? I'm sharing future of science in this country, | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
worry about this country developed the model in which it is | :09:03. | :09:17. | |
very profitable to be my on pick, -- myopic, it is easy to get the gold | :09:18. | :09:26. | |
and not care about the goose. Professor you have had | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
and not care about the goose. sponsored by both companies, do you | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
and not care about the goose. worry? So I do worry. I also worry | :09:33. | :09:34. | |
that we will worry? So I do worry. I also worry | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
pharmaceutical industry that the country really needs as well. So we | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
have been funded both by Pfizer and AstraZeneca to do | :09:44. | :09:45. | |
have been funded both by Pfizer and research. And I would say there is | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
one positive aspect of this merger or takeover, and that is that | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
Pfizer, or it looks as if they are going to invest very substantially | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
into the UK. Well, for what the assurance is worth? | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
into the UK. Well, for what the business person, so if they do | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
invest as I understand 20% of the R budget into the UK, it may be | :10:11. | :10:12. | |
business reasons for R budget into the UK, it may be | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
would like to think that is the science base and infrastructure here | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
is excellent? Although the cumulative total of both Pfizer and | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
AstraZeneca if the merger goes ahead according to the boss, the amount | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
spent on R will be slightly smaller than it is now? I don't know | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
the details of that, if we can attract Pfizer to invest or reinvest | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
in this country what I would like to see is multiple other pharmaceutical | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
companies following their lead. It isn't just Pfizer who have downsized | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
their research in this country over the last decade or so, there is | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
other pharmaceutical companies. If we can provide an environment to | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
attract three or four pharmaceutical companies back to the UK it would be | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
fantastic. It is not a perfect analogy but the car industry might | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
be one. We have Honda, Nissan, Toyota here, I would like to see the | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
same kind of thing happen in the pharmaindustry. -- pharma-industry. | :11:10. | :11:18. | |
Can you see that happening here? I wish I would be that optimistic, | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
that we as human beings developed a completely new model of the economy | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
when we don't have an external strategy. We forget about basic | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
science and fundamental knowledge. Because look at executive boards, | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
what they are interested in, they are human beings, they are | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
interested in appreciation, imagine someone from the board would say we | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
will invest a lot of money 50 years from now, they would be immediately | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
taken to an asylum. They are interested in bringing shareholders | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
value. And one of the ways to cut research and that is what has been | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
happening, with companies, with Governments. It didn't stop you | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
inventing a completely revolutionary substance did it? At some intuitive | :12:08. | :12:15. | |
level people do understand that we need fundamental knowledge that it | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
is eventually the basis for the technology, but the disstabs between | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
fundamental knowledge and the market, it is a very long chain and | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
the chain is very obscure, try for example how many people will you | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
find who would understand how quantum mechanics plays a role in | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
computers. Some people at school will probably learn that Bill Gates | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
invented the computer and Steve Jobs invented the mobile phone. It is 40, | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
50 years between the discovery. But, yes, we still understand, but there | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
is always a pressure on both Governments to cut fundamental | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
research at the universities and the companies have this model operating, | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
new models operating that will have everything fundamentally done at the | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
universities. Why are you so optimistic aboutifier? -- Pfizer? | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
I'm not optimistic about Pfizer, if we can attract them here, the idea | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
will be to get other companies come in, it is not just a question of | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
optimisim it is a question of need as well. In this country we have an | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
ageing population, looking forward decades ahead. There will be very | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
serious medical problems, for example, with Alzheimer's disease, | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
and at the moment there are no real cures for those in prospect at the | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
moment. This is basic science problem that will involve investment | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
for tens of decades. Is that investment more likely if this | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
takeover goes ahead? Yeah, I can't comment on, that I think the | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
translation of the basic biomedical research in this country, which is | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
very strong at the moment, into actual medicines is much more likely | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
if we have a strong pharmaceutical industry, local to the basic | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
research. That would imply that you this is it is better AstraZeneca | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
isn't taken over, wouldn't it? Obviously the best thing would be if | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
both companies were super-strong and doing super-well and both located in | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
the UK and we had two or three others. Are you in favour of the | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
takeover or not? I can't comment on the business side, from the science | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
side if it does happen there is potential to use it to engage or | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
encourage other industries to come to the UK. This idea that there is a | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
sort of critical mass at work, when you get a successful company, | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
successfully relocated here, or developing here. Does that work in | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
your experience? There should be a critical mass, of course, when the | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
mass becomes too critical it becomes what is happening now. That was a | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
bad idea to come at you with a science metaphor, I agree! It can | :15:02. | :15:10. | |
become an explosion, yes! But big companies in terms of research, they | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
are looking at what is happening at the universities, that's where | :15:14. | :15:22. | |
fundamental research is based these days, it was not like that 30, 40, | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
years ago, a lot of fundamental research was in companies | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
themselves. Has something happened in capitalism? Yes indeed. What has | :15:30. | :15:38. | |
happened then? I said before there is no external looking, that makes | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
us saying imagine the moon programme, it is unimaginable | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
because the moon programme was only because people were afraid of | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
nuclear war and people did understand that technology is very | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
important. And now it is more we are living in a safe world and we are | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
sinking, OK, not 50 years, not many parents think what their children | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
how they would go to the university in 10, 20 years, so you would like | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
both of the companies to think what will happen with this company in 0 | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
years. This isn't a specifically Pfizer problem? It isn't, | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
AstraZeneca is presented like a bullet company. It is the same. A | :16:27. | :16:35. | |
couple of years ago to tell you an anecdote, I had a dinner with the | :16:36. | :16:43. | |
chief executive officer, he was complaining that their shares went | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
up and he was disappointed, I said why not close all the research labs, | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
well it is not of course because of my advice, but he later, he was | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
later following exactly the same scenario, and their shares precisely | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
went up, positively. Thank you very much. The European Court of Justice | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
handed down a fascinating ruling today, a Spaniard had complained | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
that when you googled his name, you can discover once upon time he was | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
found guilty of an unchess charged debt. | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
found guilty of an unchess charged listen when there are complaints | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
about this, and comply with requests to have personal information removed | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
from requests. It is personal to celebrities who Google themselves | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
and find untrue stories. But it has implications for everyone. What are | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
we entitled to know about others and what are others entitled to stop us | :17:51. | :18:03. | |
knowing. ??FORCEDWHI What happens when you Google yourself, don't | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
pretend you haven't done it. If you don't like the results that come | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
back, perhaps it would be nice to make them go away. Two more or less | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
everyone's surprise the European Court of Justice, which is there to | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
interpret EU law has concluded that an individual can get Google or | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
another search engine to remove a link that is either out of date or | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
damaging. This is the man who wanted to be forgotten but | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
damaging. This is the man who wanted come. Mario Gonzales, he had his | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
home repossessed in 1998, he was unhappy that this embarrassing | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
feature appears when his name is searched. He believes today's an | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
important ruling. TRANSLATION: If Google is great tool it is | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
important, if people have a problem with an image or photo that is | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
damaging and the data isn't relevant, they ask for it to be | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
withdrawn. The ruling is only about the search engines and the links | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
they return, it doesn't say that the original article has to be removed. | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
It can stay on-line, just unlinked to. Particularly confusing his Emma | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
Carr from Big Brother Watch, since the judges have gone against a | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
previous decision? The Advocate-Generals are right that | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
saying to Google that you have to remove legitimate content is wrong, | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
it d have a chilling effect on free speech. For this new ruling to come | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
out and say completely the opposite was a huge surprise. We need to | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
digest what this really means, and whether this in practice can happen. | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
Previously it was accepted that the original publishers of the | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
information were responsible for it. If they took the information down it | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
would eventually disappear from search engines. Now, under the terms | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
of EU law it appears that the search engines control the information. | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
That's absolutely delighted the European Commission who have been | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
pressing for just such a change. The ruling is good news, because it | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
confirms the position of the European Commission. First that | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
European law can apply to a search engine and that Google is a | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
controller of data, and can be regarded as a controller, and this | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
is the position the commission has taken in this case, this is also the | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
position that we have taken in the European data protection forum, so | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
it is, above all, not only good for the commission but citizens who will | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
see their data better protected. The European Commission is at the moment | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
trying to bring in new data protection rules that would give | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
people the so called right to be forgotten. This was mainly about | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
social media, to prevent web sites keeping data about you if you decide | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
to close your account. But should we worry that the EU judges want to | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
include search engines as well? The court had to strike a very difficult | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
balance between the fundamental freedom, fundamental rights they are | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
called of freedom of expression and privacy, all it did was say that | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
Google isn't outside the law. It kicks the ball back into play, it is | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
actually national courts that then have to decide whether somebody's | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
complaint is really excessive and invasive of low privacy. It is often | :21:16. | :21:24. | |
said the Internet is written in concrete, but that could be | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
crumbling, giving us more control about what people see about us when | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
they search. Some of the most senior figures in | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
the British defence establishment, including the former Secretary of | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
State Jeff Hon, Hoon, are being investigated by the International | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
Criminal Court in the Hague, it is set up to bring to justice those | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity. The United States | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
doesn't accept its jurisdiction, precisely to avoid this sort of | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
embarrassment. The current British Government says it will help with | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
the examination, but it doubts much will come of it because this country | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
is already investigating the claims. Videos shot in Iraq in 2003, it | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
shows a British corporal shouting and swearing at hood the detainees, | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
some are held in stress positions, meant to have been banned. A day | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
after that was filmed this man was found battered to death in British | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
custody in the same detention centre. Corporal Donald Payne, who | :22:32. | :22:39. | |
we can't identify, was the only person punished forped what, he was | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
jailed for a year and expelled from the army. For years campaigners have | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
argued abuse was far more widespread, through six years of | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
military action in Iraq. In 2006 the International Criminal Court in the | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
Hague was first asked to look at allegations of war crimes. At the | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
time they determined the required threshold was not met. In 2010, | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
after calls for a wider inquiry, the MoD set up a team to investigate | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
allegations of historic abuse. It has paid out more than ?15 million | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
to settle 200 claims of mistreatment and unlawful detention. Then in | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
January, a file containing 250 new pages of factual and legal analysis | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
was passed to the ICC by lawyers representing detainees. It contained | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
evidence of what they said was more than 400 new cases of mistreatment | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
and unlawful killing. Among those named in the file a former Armed | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
Forces Minister, and former Defence Secretary, Jeff Hoon. Today the | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
international criminal court said it would now open its preliminary | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
examination into the allegations. It is the first time the UK has ever | :23:51. | :23:59. | |
been the subject of an ICC probe. We are not saying we will go after the | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
military or we will go after the civilian or political, we will be | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
looking at the persons, whoever they are, who bear responsibility for | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
those crimes. The MoD has long claimed the vast majority of | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
soldiers served in Iraq with professionalism and decency. | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
Ministers say they completely reject the suggestion that abuse was | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
systematic. I have never seen any suggestion made that there was a | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
policy of abusing prisoners being carried out by Her Majesty's forces, | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
and it would be an extraordinary thing if it were true, it would be | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
contrary to every tenet under which British forces have always operated. | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
But more than a decade after Mr Mousa was killed in this detainee | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
facility, accusations of wider abuse will not go away. When Britain | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
signed up to the International Criminal Court, it surely would not | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
have seen itself being the subject of any investigation. Even at the | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
earliest stage. The decision to reopen the | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
investigation into the MoD was taken after a 250-page dossier was | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
submitted to the ICC by the British law firm Public Interest Lawyers, | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
headed by the human rights lawyer Phil Shiner. I spoke to him earlier. | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
The gist of the case is throughout the period that the UK were in Iraq | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
there was systemic issues leading to a detention and interrogation policy | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
that was completely unlawful, which means there are now hundreds and | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
hundreds of Iraqis coming forward and saying they were subjected to | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
prohibited interrogation practices and techniques, and there are also | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
unfortunately lots of people skilled. Killed. Are you really | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
suggesting that soldiers on operations were given orders to | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
behave in ways you believe to be illegal? I'm suggesting that the | :25:53. | :26:00. | |
training materials and training manuals I have seen and we have all | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
seen, and in the inquiry they were analysed and made public, makes it | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
absolutely clear that at Chick Sands, the interrogation training | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
for questioners and ingators was completely unlawful. I'm also | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
suggesting that there are at least 11 other deaths in custody just like | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
Mr Mousa that we know of and the Ministry of Defence point blank | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
refuse to tell us of. Or how many deaths in custody is the Ministry of | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
Defence aware of. You are alleging it goes right to the top, up to the | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
Defence Secretary himself? I am indeed, Geoff Hoon was in charge to | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
the run up to the invasion of Iraq, that is when all these people were | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
trained. If he didn't know he ought to have known. But the fact that he | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
didn't know specifically isn't going to help him one bit. Are any of your | :27:00. | :27:07. | |
claimants former insurgents? As far as I'm aware every single person who | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
is claiming, and making allegations of torture, cruelty and inhuman | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
treatment is a civilian in the wrong place at the wrong time. So there | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
are no claimants who are former insurgents? I think you are making a | :27:22. | :27:31. | |
reference to the on going inquiry, I thought you were, and the Ministry | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
of Defence are trying to make a great deal. We will have to wait and | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
see what is said about the very serious allegations of torture, | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
cruel and inhuman treatment which he will report upon in December. But is | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
it the Ministry of Defence's case then that if you are an insurgent | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
you can do what you like to them. That is obviously not the case, and | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
that didn't help marine A in the recent murder case from Afghanistan. | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
But it is the case, is it not, that some of your witnesses there are | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
former insurgents? I have just said and I will say it again, as far as | :28:09. | :28:17. | |
I'm I aware, none of my clients who are breaches to the prohibition of | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
torture before the prosecutor are insurgents. If some of my clients | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
are it will come out. It makes no difference whatsoever. You are | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
saying that you have done this entire case free, gratis and for | :28:33. | :28:42. | |
nothing, correct? Correct. Why? Because I'm a principled human | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
rights lawyer, and it seemed to me with the evidence that I had, | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
particularly after the Mousa inquiry that it was the right thing to do. I | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
know that is not what the Ministry of Defence want to hear. But it | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
happens to be the truth. Some lawyers, like myself, actually | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
believe in the rule of law. We actually believe in fairness and | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
justice and democracy. We are prepared to pursue that, at times at | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
our own quite considerable expense. That is not what the Ministry of | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
Defence want to hear this evening, it happens to be the truth. They | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
know it really. Thank you very much for joining us. Major General Tim | :29:24. | :29:31. | |
Cross was the most senior general involved in the planning for a | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
post-war Iraq, and is part of the House of Commons defence committee. | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
He joins me from his home in Hampshire. When you hear that sort | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
of dedication from Mr Shiner, taking the case for nothing, his commitment | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
to the cause shining through at every level. It is rather impressive | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
isn't it? In one sense it is, but I would say his comment that some | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
people believe in the rule of law I think is a bit unfair. I would | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
suggest that the vast majority of people, lawyers, Government | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
ministers, and certainly senior military people, absolutely believe | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
in the rule of law and would want to ensure as far as possible that rule | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
of law is followed on operational theatres. We shouldn't be holding | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
him up as a par gone of virtue. I don't know him but I know his | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
reputation, his reputation is a bit sullied, it has to be said. If | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
indeed no wrong has been done, the British authorities surely have | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
nothing to fear from an inquiry by the international criminal -- -- | :30:34. | :30:45. | |
criminal court. I have been a witness, and they are long and | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
ponderous, if the ICC have a look at this inquiry again, and we have | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
signed up to the ICC, as your reporter said. We should do all we | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
can to assist in that process. It is important to say that the ICC was | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
set up to investigate issues like genocide and mass war crimes and so | :31:03. | :31:09. | |
on, it wasn't established to investigate individual or relatively | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
small cases, nor was it set up to do this inquiry if the host Government, | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
in our case the British Government, were doing an inquiry themselves | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
into this instance. And the UK is doing an inquiry. If British | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
soldiers were mistreating Iraqis, prisoners or otherwise, that is | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
surely something that should be investigated and for which people | :31:31. | :31:32. | |
should be brought to justice, isn't it? Absolutely it should be. That | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
has happened and the British Government have set up an Iraqi | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
inquiry unit to look at some of these issues, and that is absolutely | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
right. And anybody who would suggest that over the last 10, 12 years the | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
tens of thousands indeed hundreds of thousands of soldiers who have | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
served in Iraq they there haven't been issues like this would be | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
kidding themselves. They need to be investigated. But I do think the | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
point I'm trying to make sheer is the International Criminal Court, we | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
are not talking about genocide, I don't believe we are talking about | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
systemic or systematic abuses, which have been supported by the chain of | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
command, all the way up to the Ministry of Defence, I think that is | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
idle to suggest that. But individual cases, yes, there have been mistakes | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
and yes they should be investigated and if people are found to have done | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
criminal actions they should be punished. That has happened. Your | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
initial response to this accusation from Mr Shiner is to respond his | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
reputation was some what sullied, for which you have no evidence? I | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
said I haven't met him but heard a lot about him, that is the | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
impression I got. The House of Commons defence committee report | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
that was sub illusioned recently has look -- published recently has | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
looked at some of these issues, it is a very good report and I | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
recommend people read it. There are potential conhe is uences from all | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
of these issues, I don't know -- cons sequences from these issues, I | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
wouldn't suggest anything other than I have heard. You have no evidence | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
for that? I'm sorry. You have no evidence for your claim then? I have | :33:09. | :33:17. | |
said what I have said Jeremy, no I would say it is more than tittle | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
tattle. But there is no point in entering that debate, I have said | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
what I have said. The important issue here is I have no objection at | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
all to these investigations being conducted, but we need to look at it | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
in the context is it right for the ICC to be doing this work, should | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
our own Government be doing it, in my view this is a UK Government | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
issue and I regret the fact it has gone to the International Criminal | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
Court. It is generally thought to be one of | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
the most difficult things a young man can attempt, how do you escape | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
from the world of gangs. We are going to hear now the story of one | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
young Londoner who spent nearly a decade rising through the ranks of | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
his gang, and until the futility of it all dawned upon him as he was | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
treated for serious knife wounds. He spoke to us through the offices of | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
the charity Gangs Line, to tell us how he changed his life or jumped | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
off. For fear of retribution, he asked us to call him JT, his words | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
are spoken by the actor, Ashley Thomas. | :34:24. | :34:31. | |
Gangs, I seen them when I was younger, I saw a stabbing when I was | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
nine, I was sleeping and someone was shouting, I opened my curtain, there | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
was a green door and blood on it, the guy was holding his body, I | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
called my dad and he told me go back to bed. So yeah I see that. I | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
enjoyed football a lot, that is what I should be now, a professional | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
footballer, I had to stop going training and started hanging around, | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
that is when I messed up. There was a football cage and a lot of older | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
boys there, they were having problems with others, that was how | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
the rivalry started, always violence. We saw one of the olders | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
killed and that got to us, I was 15, the older guys told us how to do | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
things, beef and make money, don't leave your boy, don't run, don't | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
snitch, don't get caught slipping, telling me not to slip it telling me | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
to have my wet on. If I meet someone a they have a knife and I don't, I | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
will get stabbed. I have hurt people, when you are jumping, when | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
you are in this life you know what's coming, and I knew in the back of my | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
head I would end up in a peak situation, I would get stabbed or | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
killed. I would never go out of my way to hurt an innocent, never, I | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
always go someone that I have got beef with. Innocents, they are | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
intimidated by me, I don't like that. You hear the car lock, you are | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
walking and the person will cross the road, it is not nice. I didn't | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
think about my actions, I just did what I did and kept it moving. And | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
get respect, girls, girls love a bad boy innit, fee MRAELs are impressed | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
by violence, I don't know -- females are impressed by violence, I don't | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
know why. The olders told us go shop for this guy and that way, they will | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
give you say an eighth of weed broke down into shots, it was instinct, we | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
knew what to do and how to get rid of it, sell it on, sell it on to the | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
cats to anyone You know what keeps people going, money, nobody wants to | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
run around stabbing and shooting people, if you make money because | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
you are on the roads and seeing dough people will continue. I was | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
seeing from weed ?450 a day, that is too much work, it is not like you | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
finish at this time, 24-hours, sleepless nights, it starts getting | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
long. I clocked on stupid when I was sliced, I remember clearly I got a | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
phone call, one of my lot was sitting waiting to go to court, it | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
is peak, it can be anyone from any area there, I met this pig and he | :36:58. | :37:05. | |
smack in my face, and we do it together, he was come, come, I got | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
there, there was there lot, three cars came, I thought I know what I'm | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
doing, I will run at him, my lot have legged it, thinking it would be | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
a fist fight, I was getting my head kicked in, they got closer and it | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
was a blur, one had a machete, I thought I was Superman, and I | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
thought I would disarm him and end up using it on him, that did not | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
work. Flaps were coming out of the arm of my jacket, my arm was split, | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
I thought this is peak, when I was going into hospital and I was | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
thinking about revenge, as soon as I came out and I would do what I was | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
doing, I was operated on straight away. They put you to sleep, I woke | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
up not angry, I thought what is the point in getting out of the bed and | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
doing something knowing I will go to jail for it or someone coming to do | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
me again. I don't tell my friends I would jump off, none of them jumped | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
off, everyone is thinking the same thing, this is getting long. If you | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
told one they would say you are soft. Then I met a girl, I met a | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
girl, and started seeing opportunities to make good money and | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
keeping it without getting arrested and put in cells, I thought yeah, | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
man, the beef goes on. Even now if I have to see someone from them sites | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
I would have to do something. If I want to go to west London I will be | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
carrying something just in case it gets political. I'm much happier | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
though, much less stress, I will never fully go back on the block, | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
that is over for me. My little brother is ten, he got stopped and | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
searched, they said he was looking suspicious, older guys make younger | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
boys carry for them, he's a good boy, for him it is football, that's | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
it. If he wants to carry anything for a guy I would kick his cars. | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
Yeah man, I would kick his cars. Then I would confront the guy. | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
You know you are old when the band to which you danced is releasing its | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
40th anniversary album and you discover its rock goddess singer is | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
68. That is the state untold number of us find ourselves in with the | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
release this week of Bondar's Ghost of Download album. They are playing | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
Glastonbury this summer. Because the restraining order is still in place | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
I wasn't allowed to go when the invitation came to meet them. Kirsty | :39:35. | :39:43. | |
went and spoke to Debbie Harry and Chris Steyn and saw them performing | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
at the studios. This record is a very collaborative effort, there are | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
a lot of people involved. There is never a grand overview scheme to | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
what we do, I just do what I like as far as music goes. I think some of | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
the fans were upset when I say it is a character and I'm playing a part. | :40:04. | :40:12. | |
# They tell me I should try it # Each way not that sky | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
# What I know that I would learn to # Do the mile high When you started, | :40:19. | :40:26. | |
in a way when Blondie came about, it exploded, you weren't an ingenu, you | :40:27. | :40:34. | |
came out fully formed. I wasn't. You knew what you were doing. | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
came out fully formed. I wasn't. You different to what anyone had ever | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
seen? I guess so. You know, I certainly had an idea that what I | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
wanted to do. But I also feel that a lot of the girls that had strong | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
personas and ideas, you know, lot of the girls that had strong | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
how they didn't get past a certain point. We were very much in the | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
moment back then, I don't know if we were aware of what the effect was as | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
much as in retrospect. There was a certain kind of incredible | :41:07. | :41:08. | |
detatchment, it certain kind of incredible | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
effortless coolness to that. Inside it was trauma! Every minute was | :41:16. | :41:27. | |
trauma! # Inbetween | :41:28. | :41:29. | |
# What I find is pleasing # And I feel it come | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
# Love is so confusing. Did you ever think you still be touring in your | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
60s? It is the same answer as previously, which is we are very | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
much in the moment, I don't think anybody was thinking ahead. But also | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
you know when we were kids the only people in their 50s and 60s were | :41:47. | :41:48. | |
jazz and blues musicians, no musicians were that old. Rock 'n' | :41:49. | :41:56. | |
roll is a young form. When you were young I read that you had actually | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
thought perhaps that you had been Marylin Munro's daughter? Yeah, but | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
I don't think I was ever young actually. I think that I have always | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
I don't think I was ever young # Call me I'm in love | :42:07. | :42:14. | |
When I met her she was 26, I think, and there was a really big deal when | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
Cream Magazine outed her as being 33 years old in the beginning of our | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
career, and that was like whoooo. I just flashed my underpants a took | :42:26. | :42:34. | |
care of that! You said I think you were so glad you had all the radical | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
experiences in your life that you had. Does that also include, you | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
have talked about this so long, the drugs period, are you glad in a way | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
you had that, is that still something you don't regret? I think | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
I regret certain aspects of it for sure. But you know it is part of, | :42:52. | :42:59. | |
definitely part of the culture and the times and I certainly think I | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
was you know of a mind to experiment and I think that I stillam perhaps | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
not in the drug world but I think experimentation and trying things is | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
that's deeply rooted in me. It is a problem with drugs and smoking pot | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
every day is it makes everything have the same importance. You know | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
that the little things are as important as the big things, and I | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
don't know if that is a good mental state to be in. We're going to do | :43:28. | :43:40. | |
rapture, after the guitar solo how do you want to do that? We never do | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
the same thing twice. You are funnily rude to Clem? He's a | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
complete pain in the ass but he's great drummer. His playing gets | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
better, he's living the dream. It is like this old family situation, it | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
gets like that. The band is pretty stable now, really, but there are | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
aspects of that. All right, whatever. The creative partnership, | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
you had to have each other for this didn't you? Yeah, it is a weird | :44:10. | :44:19. | |
thing, click, it goes on. # That's very close | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
When you actually split up romantically did it not make any | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
difference to the work? While there was some moments of... There was a | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
period when we weren't working for a year or so, and then it just started | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
up again. Debt is the godmother -- Deb is the godmother to the kids? | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
Are you good at fairy godmother things? I'm terrible. I still | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
haven't left them with her yet? What age are they? Eight and ten? Really? | :44:49. | :44:57. | |
You have had a life and rock 'n' roll, do you feel you are a lifer, | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
that has been in a sense that has been the entire focus of your life? | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
God forbid we are on death row, we are lifers! You know I don't know if | :45:07. | :45:15. | |
we will retire ever, I keep hearing that as soon as you retire you are | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
dead in five years, you have to keep working. We are lucky and appreciate | :45:19. | :45:29. | |
it and I mean I certainly never expected to have this kind of life, | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
I don't know if my kind of life actually existed when I was a child, | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
there was nothing really to pattern myself about. I think you know I | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
knew that I wanted to perform and you know I think originally I was a | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
little girl and I wanted to be a movie star! My ideas were probably | :45:51. | :46:00. | |
always very visual and that has attributed to me sort of creating | :46:01. | :46:14. | |
this Blondie persona. Is there anything you regret that you haven't | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
done yet or you still want to do, are you two cooking up something | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
else? Sure, plenty of stuff. There is this little comedy workshop I | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
have enjoyed doing recently, so I'm not funny you know but I play it | :46:30. | :46:37. | |
very straight. You are pretty funny! Are you funny? Him? He's funny! | :46:38. | :46:46. | |
She's funny too. We can be funny. She has a good sense of humour. That | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
was nice. That was Kirsty talking to Blondie, you can see the full | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
Blondie sessions if you press the red button on your remote at the end | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
of the programme. It is on iPlayer too. That's it from us, the BBC's | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
body clock day today revealed among other things that smartphones and | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
computers trick the body by emitting blue light which makes it think that | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
it is not really time to go to sleep. At last we all understand the | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
reason for this programme's colour scheme. Well it's finished now. | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
Sleep well. (Soft jazz music) After the big downpours that many of | :47:24. | :48:12. | |
us experienced during the course of Tuesday, Wednesday is looking a lot | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
better although it is not going to be a perfect day. There is some | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
cloud and rain in the forecast. Let's start with Northern Ireland | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
first of all where the weather is not looking all that great. Cloudy | :48:24. | :48:24. |