14/05/2014 Newsnight


14/05/2014

With Jeremy Paxman. Romanian and Bulgarian immigration, the ethics of animal testing, the targets of Russia sanctions, fish discards and is Scotland drifting away from the UK?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 14/05/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Bye-bye. Romanians and Bulgarians predicted

:00:00.:00:11.

to have come to Britain, seemed to have decided they would rather stay

:00:12.:00:15.

at home. Maybe they were never going to come any way or maybe they are

:00:16.:00:18.

planning to come later. But the figures do not show the huge surge

:00:19.:00:23.

of eastern European immigrants predicted by some. What lessons

:00:24.:00:26.

should we learn about the politics of immigration, and this country's

:00:27.:00:32.

attractiveness or not to migrants. The people who perform the four

:00:33.:00:36.

million or so experiments on animals in this country each year promise a

:00:37.:00:40.

new deal. But they do nothing to reassure the enemies of vivisection,

:00:41.:00:50.

so why do they do it at all? ?20 for one fish, gone. You sound pretty

:00:51.:00:55.

angry George? I am angry about it, what I think about, it is terrible,

:00:56.:01:00.

it is a damn disgrace. This sparked a highly successful campaign to

:01:01.:01:04.

reform European rules on fishing, yet now the fishermen who say their

:01:05.:01:11.

livelihoods have been imperilled claim the crusade was based on

:01:12.:01:16.

falsehood and has led to absurd new regulations. Hugh Fernley

:01:17.:01:20.

Whittingstall is here to defend what he did against one of the

:01:21.:01:30.

fibbermens' leaders. Some rare facts have intruded upon one of the most

:01:31.:01:33.

charged issues of the European elections, which take place at the

:01:34.:01:37.

end of next week. The predicts invasion of migrants from Romania

:01:38.:01:43.

and Bulgaria doesn't seem to have happened. It is a very long way

:01:44.:01:46.

short of the final picture, but figures from the three months after

:01:47.:01:49.

the lifting of restrictions at the start of this year suggest that the

:01:50.:01:55.

hoards predicted by parties like UKIP to be heading to the country

:01:56.:01:59.

haven't materialised. The total was 140,000 registered for work, which

:02:00.:02:03.

was lower than the total at the end of last year. This is perhaps the

:02:04.:02:18.

ultimate in metropolitan elite views of immigration. This is grand

:02:19.:02:21.

approximately gravia in London, where a brilliant Romanian pianist

:02:22.:02:27.

is playing a piece by a Polish composer, who by the way lived in

:02:28.:02:32.

Paris. That is not quite the normal experience of immigration, and

:02:33.:02:35.

certainly not the one informing political debate.

:02:36.:02:42.

This is Victor, among the first Romanians to arrive in Britain on

:02:43.:02:46.

January first this year. He was met by a couple of MPs, that is because

:02:47.:02:50.

he and his countrymen, along with the Bulgarians had just gained full

:02:51.:02:55.

free access to the UK labour market as full European members. There was

:02:56.:02:58.

fear that new EU members would mean a surge in immigration. As it had

:02:59.:03:08.

done in the mid-2000. So how do those concerns look? Today we got

:03:09.:03:11.

the first hints from employment data, last year the number of

:03:12.:03:15.

Romanians and Bulgarians in work was already over 140,000, but it didn't

:03:16.:03:21.

rise after January, in fact it fell very slightly. Much to the delight

:03:22.:03:27.

of the Government. The employment of Romanians and Bulgarians actually

:03:28.:03:30.

went down in the first three months of this year. Now, don't read too

:03:31.:03:37.

much into it, if we spool back to the equivalent point in the

:03:38.:03:43.

mid-20000s when ten members of the EU got full access to the UK, there

:03:44.:03:47.

was a slight rise in immigration. We couldn't tell from that there were

:03:48.:03:51.

pulsing surges of the hundreds of thousands of people yet to come.

:03:52.:03:54.

That doesn't mean we should automatically assume a return to the

:03:55.:04:04.

mid-2000s. Back then thousands joined from ten EU countries but

:04:05.:04:10.

only given access to three labour markets, Ireland, the UK and Sweden,

:04:11.:04:14.

the other countries delayed. This time there were only 27 EU countries

:04:15.:04:18.

and just two countries, and Britain kept the bar why is up for as long

:04:19.:04:22.

as it could. So immigrants from those countries can now go anywhere

:04:23.:04:29.

in Europe. There are other good reasons why new EU citizens might

:04:30.:04:35.

choose to stay at home. Romania, for example, is beautiful, even if it is

:04:36.:04:41.

not a popular destination for Brits. There are lots of reasons why

:04:42.:04:44.

British people are concerned about east European immigration in

:04:45.:04:47.

particular, more than say French immigration, not least their scale

:04:48.:04:50.

and the speed of it in recent years. There is another big reason too, it

:04:51.:04:54.

is that British people don't by and large don't know a lot about Eastern

:04:55.:04:58.

Europe. This is a festival about the culture of Transylvenia, and it is a

:04:59.:05:01.

pretty good bet that most British people can only name one

:05:02.:05:06.

Transylvanian immigrant to Britain, Dracula! So, some Britons might be

:05:07.:05:14.

rather surprised to find a lot of Romanians in particular might prefer

:05:15.:05:18.

not to come to Britain at all. I think Romanians would prefer Italy

:05:19.:05:23.

or Spain, because Romanian is very similar to Spanish and Italian.

:05:24.:05:28.

Despite the fact that Romanian is surrounded but the Ukraine, Moldova

:05:29.:05:35.

and Bulgaria and Hungary. Romanian is a Latin language so Romanians

:05:36.:05:39.

would prefer Spain and Italy more. Better weather too? Absolutely. The

:05:40.:05:44.

food is more similar. And the culture and everything. UKIP has, in

:05:45.:05:52.

particular, made the possibility of high European immigration in the

:05:53.:05:57.

Cummings years into a major issue -- coming years into a major issue. It

:05:58.:06:02.

will be a long time until whether we know their campaigning points are

:06:03.:06:08.

off key or in tune. Well, in a moment I will be speaking

:06:09.:06:16.

to the EU Commissioner for Labour. First Mark Reckless, who sits on the

:06:17.:06:20.

Home Affairs Select Committee is here, he was one of the two MPs who

:06:21.:06:25.

welcomed all those few remainians? Met them any way -- Romanians? Met

:06:26.:06:32.

them any way. Welcoming I hope? Victor, from Transylvenia his

:06:33.:06:37.

exposure in the media didn't do much good, he quickly went back. It has

:06:38.:06:41.

turned out to be a pile of scaremongering? I'm not sure if you

:06:42.:06:45.

are aware, the whole fuss today is based on the survey responses of

:06:46.:06:50.

five people. Five? Rather fewer than Keith Vaz and I spoke to on New

:06:51.:06:55.

Year's Day. These figures are elaborated from five people?

:06:56.:06:58.

Absolutely, when it says 4,000 fewer, it means that five fewer

:06:59.:07:04.

Romanians and Bulgarians gave the answer to the survey than last time.

:07:05.:07:08.

The survey is intended to look at the whole economy, we know today the

:07:09.:07:13.

economy is strong and record employment growth, 750,000 more in

:07:14.:07:16.

work than a year ago, when you are looking at a subset of who is

:07:17.:07:21.

working from Romania and Bulgarian and how much it has changed these

:07:22.:07:28.

are useless, that had a again of error is four-times as much. Clearly

:07:29.:07:32.

there has not been the enormous autoinflux that people predict --

:07:33.:07:38.

influx that people predicted? The survey is useless, most of the

:07:39.:07:42.

people for the survey were recruited last year, before the restrictions

:07:43.:07:46.

on Bulgaria were restricted in January. There is no way you could

:07:47.:07:50.

expect this survey to show us the change to Romania or Bulgaria has

:07:51.:07:55.

been to any level of accuracy. To put the weight people have is wrong.

:07:56.:07:58.

On Thursday next week we will get the number of national insurance

:07:59.:08:00.

numbers to different nationalities, that is a real number, counting

:08:01.:08:06.

every one who has applied for work. You and Keith Vaz and your friend at

:08:07.:08:11.

the airport, you are not there when he says an apology is load to

:08:12.:08:17.

Romanians and Bulgarians? I was an economist for many years, if you

:08:18.:08:21.

asked zero. 1% of the population, 80% of whom you recruited last year,

:08:22.:08:26.

that won't give you a sensible answer to what is heaping to

:08:27.:08:28.

Romanians and Bulgarians over the last few months. I think it is still

:08:29.:08:33.

too early to tell. We will find out the national insurance numbers, that

:08:34.:08:36.

could be more useful, on Thursday next week, but the immigration

:08:37.:08:41.

numbers for the next quarter won't come out until August. You are

:08:42.:08:45.

worried there will be a big influx? We don't know. From those I have

:08:46.:08:49.

seen Migrationwatch have done a lot of analysis, and their assessment

:08:50.:08:53.

looks as if it is academically respectable. They have done a lot of

:08:54.:08:58.

work, they say about 50,000 a year averaged over five years. I have no

:08:59.:09:02.

reason to say different from that. When I went to Bucharest with Keith

:09:03.:09:08.

and others, we met a lot of Romanians who spoke better English

:09:09.:09:12.

than perhaps the other eastern European countries where people have

:09:13.:09:15.

come. The average income level is lower, the levels of corruption and

:09:16.:09:19.

the perception that there aren't opportunities for young people are

:09:20.:09:21.

high. But immigration doesn't work in terms of a huge rush, people will

:09:22.:09:26.

build networks and if friends and relatives are successful here more

:09:27.:09:30.

will follow. We don't know, we need to welcome those who come, but

:09:31.:09:33.

ultimately I believe we need to control our borders and decide how

:09:34.:09:37.

many we want to come and that is why people want to vote for an

:09:38.:09:39.

Independent Britain, they need a Conservative Government to give them

:09:40.:09:42.

that referendum to control our borders and make our own decisions.

:09:43.:09:46.

Thank you very much indeed. With us now is the EU Commissioner for

:09:47.:09:52.

labour. Do you understand why there is this anxiety in this country?

:09:53.:10:01.

Good evening. I certainly do understand why theseth anxiety

:10:02.:10:05.

developed. I -- this anxiety developed. I believe it is linked to

:10:06.:10:11.

false expectation in 2004, when there were calculation about Polish

:10:12.:10:18.

and others to the UK. You mean the ridiculous underestimate of how many

:10:19.:10:21.

people would come? Indeed that was coming from Government offices in

:10:22.:10:25.

Britain. The British Government was completely stupid on that wasn't it?

:10:26.:10:29.

I don't think so. I don't think the decision was entirely wrong. To say

:10:30.:10:33.

there were 13,000 coming and it turns out to be the best part of a

:10:34.:10:37.

million? The point is this migrant work force did not do any harm to

:10:38.:10:41.

the British economy, they contributed to the British GDP and

:10:42.:10:47.

economic growth, to services. They also are net contributors to the

:10:48.:10:51.

welfare budget of Britain. That's another point entirely, whether they

:10:52.:10:55.

are a good thing or a bad thing, the scale of the influx was utterly and

:10:56.:11:00.

hopelessly underestimated, wasn't it? It was, indeed. But it was a

:11:01.:11:07.

wrong predictor for what would happen on January first this year.

:11:08.:11:10.

Do you think the British Government in this case has behaved onably?

:11:11.:11:20.

Honourably. At the end of last year, we saw an escalation at the end of

:11:21.:11:24.

last year of quite inappropriate language, and also false predictions

:11:25.:11:29.

and a kind of improvisation over what kind of policy measures would

:11:30.:11:32.

need to be introduced if there is this kind of influx, which in

:11:33.:11:39.

reality was an unfounded expectation. I think a better way

:11:40.:11:46.

would have been to develop some kind of dialogue with Romania and

:11:47.:11:53.

Bulgaria if that was a concern, while statement as we now know much

:11:54.:11:57.

better, migration increased from other countries, and the situation,

:11:58.:12:03.

the labour market situation in the southern European countries is more

:12:04.:12:07.

a concern than what is for example the situation in Romania. Just to be

:12:08.:12:13.

clear where you are coming from, you don't think the British people are

:12:14.:12:17.

entitled to decide for themselves who comes into the country and who

:12:18.:12:21.

doesn't come into the country and the conditions under which they are

:12:22.:12:26.

admitted? Well the point is that in the European Union of which the

:12:27.:12:30.

United Kingdom is a member, the free movement of persons is a fundamental

:12:31.:12:33.

principle. So you don't believe that? You do not believe that? This

:12:34.:12:43.

is a fundamental principle that in the EU the free movement of goods,

:12:44.:12:46.

services, capital and persons applies, and a lot of British people

:12:47.:12:50.

also take advantage of these freedoms. Many of the British people

:12:51.:12:56.

actually work on continent or go to study or retire in other EU member

:12:57.:13:00.

states. This is the same freedom which applies to other citizens from

:13:01.:13:08.

other E United States and this is something which benefits all

:13:09.:13:11.

countries. Has it occurred to you that there may be some connection

:13:12.:13:14.

between the belief that you expressed there, and the sharp rise

:13:15.:13:20.

in the number of votes being cast for right-wing parties and extreme

:13:21.:13:24.

right-wing parties within European Union countries? Well in various

:13:25.:13:30.

countries there are various reasons for the current rise of populisim or

:13:31.:13:35.

the recent rise of populisim, in some countries, especially in

:13:36.:13:41.

southern Europe, it is mainly about the urinry zone crisis how people

:13:42.:13:48.

see -- eurozone crisis, and how they see the way it was handled, in other

:13:49.:13:53.

countries it is about social dumping, in further countries it is

:13:54.:13:56.

about migration from non-EU countries. There are various reasons

:13:57.:14:00.

behind this tide of populisim, I wouldn't make a short cut to EU

:14:01.:14:07.

mobility. A big majority of the EU citizens actually supports the

:14:08.:14:12.

freedom of movement, and they consider it as one of the most

:14:13.:14:17.

important benefits, advantages, that the European Union gives to its

:14:18.:14:20.

citizens. Thank you very much indeed for joining us thank you.

:14:21.:14:26.

The researchers and organisations which conduct experiments using

:14:27.:14:30.

animals announced a new Code of Practise today. They promised to be

:14:31.:14:33.

open and above board about what they are doing and why they are doing it.

:14:34.:14:39.

They hope they are about to neutralise the often very heated

:14:40.:14:42.

opposition of some animal rights organisations, who have repeatedly

:14:43.:14:46.

claimed there is too much animal testing. It does not of course meet

:14:47.:14:49.

their demands that all such testing stop. But then either, as far as we

:14:50.:14:54.

can see, do the British people think that animal testing should be

:14:55.:15:04.

stopped. Here is the a take on the subject.

:15:05.:15:07.

In the 12 years that I have been a surgeon I have relied on countless

:15:08.:15:14.

drugs and membered ram procedures to treat -- medical procedures to treat

:15:15.:15:18.

on my patients. Before they are tested on people, most are tested on

:15:19.:15:23.

animals. The idea that some animals have to lose their lives to prolong

:15:24.:15:29.

ours' is hugely controversial, and the battle between those who believe

:15:30.:15:34.

animal experiments are vital for medical progress and those who don't

:15:35.:15:41.

has been raging for decades. Testing cosmetic products on animal was

:15:42.:15:46.

banned in 1998. Experiments for medical research continued. But the

:15:47.:15:50.

threat of violence from animal rights extremists meant it mostly

:15:51.:15:57.

went on behind closed doors. For years many in the scientific

:15:58.:16:01.

community were simply too afraid to speak out in defence of what they

:16:02.:16:06.

saw as important medical research. But now, all of that is changing.

:16:07.:16:14.

Two UK bioscience organisations have signed a declaration of openness,

:16:15.:16:21.

published today. The hope is better information about when, how and why

:16:22.:16:26.

they use animals in research, will allow the public to make up their

:16:27.:16:34.

own mind about the costs and pen -- benefits of animal experiments. The

:16:35.:16:39.

University of Bristol, which runs this animal facility is bun of the

:16:40.:16:45.

signatories. This is the first time they have let cameras inside. These

:16:46.:16:52.

figures have had artificial grafts implanted in their hearts. The

:16:53.:16:56.

researchers want to see if the graft will grow as the big grows, so the

:16:57.:17:00.

treatment can be used in children with heart defects. The idea with

:17:01.:17:08.

here is they are tissue engineering the implants to actually merge into

:17:09.:17:14.

the tissue of the animal. You are obviously very comfortable talking

:17:15.:17:18.

to us about the research taking place on these pigs, would you

:17:19.:17:21.

always have felt this way? I don't think so, I don't think I would have

:17:22.:17:25.

been comfortable to be filmed, I have certainly sat in scientific

:17:26.:17:29.

meetings with people beating at the doors trying to get in, police

:17:30.:17:42.

donees being -- cordons around it and being hit on the head with

:17:43.:17:47.

instruments and more colleagues with car bombs. The threat of violence

:17:48.:17:53.

from animal rights extremists has diminished over the decades, making

:17:54.:17:57.

some scientists feel more comfortable about discussing their

:17:58.:18:02.

work. In all my years in the medical profession, this is the very first

:18:03.:18:07.

time I have attended an animal research facility to see how

:18:08.:18:10.

techniques are being developed, certainly it is incredibly hard for

:18:11.:18:15.

me to imagine how you could use something other than an animal for

:18:16.:18:26.

that kind of research. In the future will we be ever able to eliminate

:18:27.:18:32.

animals in the procedure in the future is the question. The numbers

:18:33.:18:39.

were promised to be cut of procedures involving animals. In

:18:40.:18:42.

fact the numbers rose from three. Seven million in 2010, to just over

:18:43.:18:49.

four million in the latest Home Office figures released in 2014.

:18:50.:18:53.

Some Government-funded grants have been given to help scientists find

:18:54.:18:59.

alternatives to animal research, is it enough. Professor Robin Williams

:19:00.:19:08.

received a grant for research into treatment in epilepsy, traditionally

:19:09.:19:13.

tested on rats. We have developed a simple amean bah, to , can an ameoba

:19:14.:19:29.

be used. It has a huge number of scientific advantages, as well asset

:19:30.:19:32.

all advantages, we have been able to do experiments that are very

:19:33.:19:38.

difficult to do in mammal systems, rats, it has allowed us to make

:19:39.:19:44.

breakthroughs others haven't been able to using animals. It is quite

:19:45.:19:49.

radical work, how has it been received in the broader scientific

:19:50.:19:54.

community? When you publish my papers are sent to senior people in

:19:55.:19:58.

the area. Most of the senior people have based their careers on using

:19:59.:20:03.

animals. We often get the response, yes Robin that is very interesting,

:20:04.:20:09.

but actually do it all again in an animal, I find that incredibly

:20:10.:20:15.

frustrating. As a doctor I believe that animal research is necessary.

:20:16.:20:20.

But I also think it is crucially important that we continue to look

:20:21.:20:26.

for alternatives. Not only because doing so will reduce the number of

:20:27.:20:30.

animals we need to use in experiments, but also because it is

:20:31.:20:34.

possible that one day the alternatives won't just be as good

:20:35.:20:39.

as the animals they will be better. And that's the way that medical

:20:40.:20:42.

research is going to be pushed forward. With us now are the

:20:43.:20:49.

Government's chief scientific adviser and the head of the British

:20:50.:20:54.

union for the abolition of vivisection. Why have you done this?

:20:55.:21:00.

Because the public is interested in medical research and actually a mori

:21:01.:21:05.

poll in 2012 showed they wanted to know more about research on animals.

:21:06.:21:09.

I think they have been hearing a very one-sided story, because the

:21:10.:21:13.

scientific community, has as you have heard been intimidated in the

:21:14.:21:18.

past. By how much will this reduce the number of animals being

:21:19.:21:21.

experimented on? That is a different question. But the important point is

:21:22.:21:25.

to make clear why they are used. You have seen a very good explanation.

:21:26.:21:29.

And the coalition commitment was to work towards reducing. It won't

:21:30.:21:35.

reduce it by even one will it? It is important to dig underneath the

:21:36.:21:39.

numbers. What has changed is with the new techniques of genetic

:21:40.:21:42.

engineering, a the lot of numbers counted on as experiments are simply

:21:43.:21:47.

breeding of mice. You have to look at what underlies the numbers. Do

:21:48.:21:51.

you count this as a step in the right direction? If this was genuine

:21:52.:21:56.

openness we would welcome it. Sadly I think this is propaganda dressed

:21:57.:22:03.

up as transparency. Why do you say that? It you look at what is

:22:04.:22:08.

promised to deliver, it is tours from selected journalists, it is

:22:09.:22:12.

visits to schools, it is a statement on a website. Will we see what is

:22:13.:22:16.

happening to animal, will we see brain surgery, or dogs poisoned for

:22:17.:22:32.

pharmaceuticals or electrocushion. As part of the transparency people

:22:33.:22:35.

explain the benefits and the harm. There is a commitment to explain the

:22:36.:22:41.

research clearly. I think there is a commitment shown on explaining the

:22:42.:22:44.

public why animal research is necessary, the industry is perfectly

:22:45.:22:50.

entitled to run a PR exercise to explain to the public why they use

:22:51.:22:54.

animals, what they are not entitled to do is dress it up as real

:22:55.:22:58.

openness. If openness is what we want I call upon the research

:22:59.:23:02.

industry to back the Government's proposals to remove blanket secrecy.

:23:03.:23:07.

You are not suggesting this is a tourist attraction? Of course I'm

:23:08.:23:13.

not. What can you do? Open up the licensing system, currently now

:23:14.:23:19.

there is blanket secrecy which the area knows the Government wants to

:23:20.:23:23.

remove it. The research industry is silent, we have a PR exercise

:23:24.:23:27.

instead, it is not good enough. The consultation on section 24 which

:23:28.:23:31.

started last week and will run for six weeks, the confidentiality one,

:23:32.:23:37.

the favoured Government position is the things confidential is the name

:23:38.:23:41.

of the researcher and any intellectual property, but would

:23:42.:23:50.

increase it in terms of the concordant. The UK regulates its

:23:51.:23:54.

animal research better than anyone else in the world. Picking up those

:23:55.:24:02.

two points, the concordat is not what we are saying, if we are

:24:03.:24:14.

removing blanket secrecy that is not what the oncordat is doing. There is

:24:15.:24:17.

nothing to do with medical discovery, the numbers are on the

:24:18.:24:20.

rise, we are not getting true transparency, when we go undercover

:24:21.:24:25.

into facilities, including Imperial College, where you used to work, you

:24:26.:24:30.

find horrendous things happening, people saying in institutions if the

:24:31.:24:34.

Home Office were in here we would be screwed right now. We are not going

:24:35.:24:38.

to change that with a PR talk. I would rather be born one of those

:24:39.:24:44.

pigs in that scientific establishment or an intensive

:24:45.:24:48.

farming place wouldn't you? I'm not here to talk about intensive

:24:49.:24:53.

farming, I'm talking about allowing public access to what is happening

:24:54.:25:00.

in laboratories. Nobody is arguing in favour of bad practice and

:25:01.:25:03.

against regulation. We have a well regulated system and now a

:25:04.:25:07.

commitment from researchers from industry, from acedemia and funders

:25:08.:25:11.

of research to be much more open. You are seeing pieces like this one

:25:12.:25:17.

and the bun that Fergus Walsh did not long ago that you wouldn't have

:25:18.:25:21.

seen before. This is transparency and giving both sides of the story.

:25:22.:25:24.

You know very well neither of those pieces show the reality of what

:25:25.:25:29.

happens to an animal in an experiment, that will not be shown

:25:30.:25:32.

to the public, when it is shown to the public the public don't like it

:25:33.:25:35.

and researchers are very aware of that. Some of the numbers that are

:25:36.:25:40.

counted are simply mice breeding. There is no harm associated with

:25:41.:25:44.

that the all. You really have to dig in and look under at the data. And

:25:45.:25:48.

some of the numbers counted are invasive brain research on primates

:25:49.:25:55.

and dogs being used to test drugs and poisoned. You are against all

:25:56.:26:00.

research on animals, however good it may be seen to be for the

:26:01.:26:03.

development of medicine for humans? Absolutely. I'm against all animal

:26:04.:26:10.

research for twoens are -- reasons, ethically, morally and

:26:11.:26:14.

scientifically. While you are here I want to ask you one question, about

:26:15.:26:19.

Pfizer? I thought you might! Is it good for British science the

:26:20.:26:23.

takeover of AstraZeneca by Pfizer? The real issue is in the sense that

:26:24.:26:28.

we have just been talking about it, British biomedical research is

:26:29.:26:32.

extraordinarily good, the UK record of developing drugs is

:26:33.:26:35.

extraordinarily good. From a Government perspective wh we really

:26:36.:26:39.

need to see is that environment is used in the best way by the pharma

:26:40.:26:46.

industry. But we can't get involved in a takeover. You are elegantly

:26:47.:26:51.

sitting on the fence? We have to make sure we get the most of the

:26:52.:26:55.

huge investment in British biomedical research. Could it be

:26:56.:26:59.

damaging? Anything could be damaging, if it damaged the research

:27:00.:27:03.

base. That is absolutely right. We don't want to see a situation where

:27:04.:27:07.

we have strong medical research. You believe the takeover could damage

:27:08.:27:13.

the scientific base? There hasn't been a formal takeover offer, the

:27:14.:27:16.

Government will do everything it can to ensure the medical research base

:27:17.:27:20.

in the UK is turned into benefit for all of us in terms of medicines, in

:27:21.:27:26.

terms of making the NHS better, so there is a lot to play for. Many

:27:27.:27:31.

scientists have spoken out against this possible takeover? Yes, but my

:27:32.:27:37.

job is to advise the Government, I'm a Government scientific adviser. You

:27:38.:27:40.

are a chap that knows his onions, and your scientific colleagues? I'm

:27:41.:27:46.

extremely keen that the pharma-base is as strong as it can, it is a

:27:47.:27:51.

major part of the economy. Will it be better with Pfizer? I hope it

:27:52.:27:57.

will be the best it can with the best farmer companies in the world

:27:58.:28:00.

working with it. Clear as mud. The American state

:28:01.:28:03.

department claimed today that the sanctions imposed on Russia, because

:28:04.:28:08.

of what it has done in Ukraine, are starting to bite. There were dark

:28:09.:28:13.

warnings if Moscow continues to destablise Ukraine there will be

:28:14.:28:16.

more to come. Since the west is clearly unwilling to commit troops

:28:17.:28:20.

to Ukraine, sanctions are one of the very few weapons avaleable, do the

:28:21.:28:24.

Russians -- available. Do the Russians care? This marks a

:28:25.:28:39.

transformation, this skyline. An economy plugged into a globalised

:28:40.:28:43.

economy. But now sanctions pity all at risk.

:28:44.:28:50.

There have been travel bans and freezing of accounts. We are off to

:28:51.:28:55.

meet a man added to the EU's list on Monday. He is a parliamentarian who

:28:56.:29:02.

helped draft legislation to annexe Crimea. He thinks sanctions just

:29:03.:29:08.

make de-escalation harder. I believe that first of Alloa the sanctions of

:29:09.:29:15.

course cannot support the idea of that. Especially the sanctions where

:29:16.:29:23.

they are done against the chairmans, the chambers of the Russian

:29:24.:29:26.

parliament. I believe if we do not have such kinds of sanctions the

:29:27.:29:38.

dialogue can continue more freely on the concrete basis, especially in

:29:39.:29:44.

the international organises. Superpower confrontation seemed a

:29:45.:29:48.

thing of the past. So much so that this retro Moscow diner service it

:29:49.:29:56.

up with irony. But now it is the US Treasury Department that leads the

:29:57.:30:01.

sanctions charge, trying to ha Russia's new elite. The American

:30:02.:30:06.

idea is to go for those close to the President, indeed those who they

:30:07.:30:11.

think may be holding some of Putin's money and to send a warning shot

:30:12.:30:16.

that they can be hurt and their cash can be seized. Can that really work?

:30:17.:30:21.

Would President Putin listen, even if his friends were hurting? The Red

:30:22.:30:28.

Lion was moved. We went to see a former member of the inner circle, a

:30:29.:30:31.

one-time Prime Minister, who now opposed the President? Of course

:30:32.:30:40.

these touch all these people, it is painful. Painful for them, and of

:30:41.:30:45.

course they are giving such signals directly to Mr Putin that they are

:30:46.:30:49.

under pressure and Mr Putin knows very well himself. That is why I

:30:50.:30:56.

think a new mechanism, it is a new technology, and I would like to

:30:57.:31:02.

believe it will work to punish the whole nation I mean the Russian

:31:03.:31:06.

people, just to touch those people. Among those on the American list are

:31:07.:31:12.

old Putin friends from St Petersburg.

:31:13.:31:21.

The US has targeted some of their companies too, on the premise that

:31:22.:31:31.

Mr Putin's fund may lurk there. The head of one of those banks told us

:31:32.:31:38.

about the impact on its operations. TRANSLATION: The main effect is we

:31:39.:31:41.

have lost part of our international business, our sister bank in Latvia,

:31:42.:31:46.

and our clients can no longer use dollars. We have difficulty in using

:31:47.:31:52.

euros for payments and critically, 300,000 of our clients can't use

:31:53.:31:56.

their credit cards, so we cannot give them the best service. If more

:31:57.:32:04.

people suffer because of sanctions, how will that play in such a

:32:05.:32:08.

volatile atmosphere? This was Sunday's scene when Ukrainian

:32:09.:32:12.

passport holders in Moscow were allowed to vote in east Ukraine's

:32:13.:32:18.

referendum. European and American leaders criticised Moscow for

:32:19.:32:22.

stoking the fires of separatisim. For their part, those here voiced

:32:23.:32:28.

mistrust of the west. TRANSLATION: I think there is a lot that the west

:32:29.:32:34.

doesn't see, and that is really dangerous. We can't reach out to the

:32:35.:32:42.

west. That's awful. Could the sanctions simply be exacerbating a

:32:43.:32:47.

new division of Europe, which little prospect of changing Mr Putin's

:32:48.:32:51.

policies? We know there is an impact, but we cannot claim that

:32:52.:33:01.

this impact will necessarily lead to a policy change in Russia, on the

:33:02.:33:09.

contrary, one can argue that the sanctions might help to consolidate

:33:10.:33:15.

the Russian society or at least the Russian political class around

:33:16.:33:20.

Putin. Because the Russian leader will be deprived of opportunities

:33:21.:33:26.

that it used to have in the west. And therefore, almost by default it

:33:27.:33:30.

will become more nationalistic. So far the real giants of Russia's

:33:31.:33:35.

banking or energy sectors, like Gazprom, have been untouched. But

:33:36.:33:40.

broader sanctions are being prepared in the EU and US. If that can be

:33:41.:33:45.

done without harming most Russians, then President Putin's opponents

:33:46.:33:51.

argue such steps could still work. From my perspective of today it is

:33:52.:33:57.

clear. Mr Putin is not a crazy guy, put it this way. And he's bluffing

:33:58.:34:03.

to a great extent. If the west right now, these two weeks prior to

:34:04.:34:10.

elections would take a unified one voice on further steps which would

:34:11.:34:16.

definitely will apply to Putin's regime, in this case I think that

:34:17.:34:21.

could work and he could some how change and reconsider all these

:34:22.:34:26.

provocative activities. Whether the sanctions can do the trick, or

:34:27.:34:30.

whether they will just create new east-west tensions and solidify

:34:31.:34:34.

President Putin's domestic position isn't yet clear. But the Kremlin

:34:35.:34:39.

supporters would rather not wait to find out. As the climate for

:34:40.:34:43.

investment here chills, they are calling for dialogue. You see the

:34:44.:34:52.

President is also stressing several times our country is ready for

:34:53.:34:55.

dialogue and international co-operation on the preventing of

:34:56.:34:59.

the negative development of the situation. And then also we are

:35:00.:35:06.

ready to observe agreements which were concluded in Geneva and of

:35:07.:35:14.

course and the intention is to stop the violence. For some the latest

:35:15.:35:19.

designers will just have to be picked up here rather than in Milan

:35:20.:35:23.

or Paris. For this society more broadly, western capital could

:35:24.:35:27.

become harder to find, tipping the country into recession. Many will

:35:28.:35:37.

wear that out of patriotism, but sanctions have brought a chill to

:35:38.:35:39.

the Russian spring. I suppose it is possible if you have

:35:40.:35:43.

been living under a stone for the last few years you will be unaware

:35:44.:35:51.

of the campaign launched by the foodie Hugh Fernley Whittingstall,

:35:52.:35:56.

obliging fishermen to throw back into the sea fish which regulations

:35:57.:36:01.

say they can't land and sell. The crusade claimed half of the fish in

:36:02.:36:04.

the North Sea were being chucked back dead. It was a phenomenally

:36:05.:36:10.

successful dam pain changing the law. Is it possible one of the most

:36:11.:36:14.

successful mobilisation of public opinion ever seen in the European

:36:15.:36:18.

Union was based upon lies and distortions. That is the claim of

:36:19.:36:21.

the fishing trade, which says the new rules introduced as a result of

:36:22.:36:25.

the campaign are themselves environmentally vandalistic. With us

:36:26.:36:33.

now is the chef and Barry Deas who runs the organisation representing

:36:34.:36:39.

fishermen. What will the changes do to fishermen? It is a blanket ban on

:36:40.:36:46.

the landing of quota species. What we don't and won't have for some

:36:47.:36:49.

time is the detailed rules. A lot hinges on how they are implemented.

:36:50.:36:54.

If they are implemented in a pragmatic, sensible way, we might be

:36:55.:36:59.

able to live with them. Our fear is that they will be applied in a

:37:00.:37:05.

blanket way so that we will be throwing back fish, we won't be able

:37:06.:37:09.

to throw back fish we have to land fish that would have otherwise

:37:10.:37:14.

survived, plaice is a good example, 60% of it survives, it seems to us

:37:15.:37:19.

it makes sense to put them back into the sea where they contribute into

:37:20.:37:24.

the biomass. Things have gone well in fishing over the last ten years

:37:25.:37:28.

we have put the industry on a sustainable footing. Our fear is

:37:29.:37:36.

that this blanket ban and all the acourt treements, will destablise

:37:37.:37:40.

the whole picture. The accusation is you are more concerned about a few

:37:41.:37:43.

dead fish than you are about the lives and well being of the fishing

:37:44.:37:47.

community? What I'm hearing from Barry is very understandable, timely

:37:48.:37:53.

pressure politics, because there are some very important decisions to be

:37:54.:37:57.

made. But actually there is no blanket ban proposed. There are

:37:58.:38:02.

going to be some exemptions, there will be flexibility and I completely

:38:03.:38:09.

support that. It mystifies me that some how it has crept into the top

:38:10.:38:14.

of the story that our campaign was based on lies and distortion. Is

:38:15.:38:18.

that true? I'm not sure that is something really Barry intends to

:38:19.:38:23.

say here. I think it is, I think that the premise of fish fight is

:38:24.:38:29.

there was a massive problem that nobody was doing anything about. If

:38:30.:38:36.

you look at the North Sea Round Fish Fishery, we have there a 90%

:38:37.:38:41.

reduction in discards over 20 years. Until today you were saying 50% and

:38:42.:38:45.

just before the programme you had a rabbit out of the hat new statistic.

:38:46.:38:50.

I can accept 50%. 50% over the last ten years of the English fleet of

:38:51.:38:54.

the North Sea Round Fish, all member states, we're talking about a 90%

:38:55.:38:58.

reduction, you just have to look at the science. So the campaign was

:38:59.:39:03.

based on a false premise. I think we need to look at that statistic,

:39:04.:39:07.

whether it is 50% or less. What's actually happened in all the

:39:08.:39:10.

fisheries, and we were talking about this just before we came on air is a

:39:11.:39:15.

massive reduction in fishing effort. We have seen quotas slashed and the

:39:16.:39:19.

fleet reduced and I'm talking about the North Sea, in 2002, 6,000

:39:20.:39:26.

fishing days for a fleet of 513 boats. 2012, 60,000, down to 20,000

:39:27.:39:34.

fishing days. And much smaller catches too. So a large amount of

:39:35.:39:40.

that reduction in discards can be explained by a huge reduction in

:39:41.:39:46.

fishing. And selective and decommissioning schemes. There is a

:39:47.:39:50.

whole range of things. And we have been, at the forefront of our last

:39:51.:39:53.

programme was a very strong story about the catch quota system in

:39:54.:39:59.

Scotland, which blazes the trail for selective fishing. It was a It was a

:40:00.:40:05.

problem on its way to being solved and now we have a massive blanket

:40:06.:40:09.

ban that will raise all sorts of issues about choke species, that is

:40:10.:40:14.

when you have a range of species in your catch, and if one quota of a

:40:15.:40:20.

minor species is exhausted under the new rules you have to tie up. That

:40:21.:40:25.

is really problematic for fleets. I totally understand your concern

:40:26.:40:28.

about that and I accept the EU needs to address that. We are getting to

:40:29.:40:30.

the small print stage of negotiations. You yourself have

:40:31.:40:34.

said, and you said just now, if it is done well with the right kind of

:40:35.:40:42.

adjustments and intelligent manipulations of the quota system to

:40:43.:40:46.

allow flexibility. Multispecies quotas coming in, more deinvolvement

:40:47.:40:53.

for the regions. A ban is a very negative word, this is a fundamental

:40:54.:41:00.

principle, we cannot throw away tonnes of edible fish. If we get the

:41:01.:41:05.

quota right, uplift right, there are positives, we could have more

:41:06.:41:10.

selective fishing, it all depends on how it is implemented. Do you feel

:41:11.:41:15.

any anxiety, with the greatest of respect old chap, what are you, you

:41:16.:41:20.

are a cook, you write recipe book, you are a foodie? I'm a journalist.

:41:21.:41:29.

What business is it of yours'? I'm a journalist and all the TV programmes

:41:30.:41:33.

have had that aspect, I'm also a campaigner. The main reference point

:41:34.:41:36.

for the campaign was the simple revelation to a public that didn't

:41:37.:41:40.

know what was happening that half a million tonnes of perfectly good

:41:41.:41:45.

fish was being thrown away daily. That is pretty horrible. Anybody

:41:46.:41:50.

could eat this fish. Let me rescue Hugh, there is a role for celebrity

:41:51.:41:54.

chefs, that component of discards there is no market for, there is

:41:55.:42:02.

perfectly good fish that the public aren't tuned into. Dabes for

:42:03.:42:09.

example? How many recipes have you? Loads, in the books. Dog fish? Yes,

:42:10.:42:17.

in there. Without the campaign we wouldn't have seen the severe focus

:42:18.:42:22.

on discards that has to be an essential element of any sustainable

:42:23.:42:26.

policy going forward. What we had to do was continue the progress we had

:42:27.:42:30.

made. The really most important thing is about sustainability.

:42:31.:42:35.

Discards is one part of that picture, the real story is that

:42:36.:42:38.

things are going in the right direction on the sustainability

:42:39.:42:41.

front in the north-east Atlantic at least. In a word do you ray grow

:42:42.:42:45.

with that? I agree we are getting there and it would be great to see

:42:46.:42:55.

North Sea cod figures at sustainable levels. It is 126 days to the point

:42:56.:42:59.

where the people of Scotland will decide whether they have had enough

:43:00.:43:03.

of those of us who live south of the border, we get no say in the future

:43:04.:43:08.

in this supposed union of equals, that is the point. Scottish

:43:09.:43:12.

nationalists are sick of being perceived as the junior partner,

:43:13.:43:16.

governed by a London parliament, dominated by smooth, smooth,

:43:17.:43:20.

smoothers. Recent peace process polls suggest more and more Scots

:43:21.:43:25.

may be coming to share this view. It is enough to send David Cameron is

:43:26.:43:31.

theling there tomorrow for a couple of days tagising, the rest of

:43:32.:43:36.

Westminster carries on disbelieving that anyone could find London rule

:43:37.:43:44.

objectable. We have been in a vaguely Scottish CAVB whiskey bar in

:43:45.:43:56.

RAF Trafalgar Square tonight. When the PM heads to Scotland he will

:43:57.:44:01.

invoke the memory of the former Labour leader John Smith, a proud

:44:02.:44:08.

Scott, Scot, he will say wanting the best for his country, saying that

:44:09.:44:12.

being part of something bigger doesn't make you any less Scottish.

:44:13.:44:20.

When a Conservativepm reaches -- Conservative PM reaches for a Labour

:44:21.:44:26.

leader you know there is trouble. Alex Salmond is desperate to play it

:44:27.:44:32.

them versus the Conservatives a fight he knows he will win. That

:44:33.:44:36.

part of the fight has been left to Scottish colleagues, even if it

:44:37.:44:42.

means the Lib Dems. Now there are rumabilities, Westminster has to

:44:43.:44:46.

wake up, after seeming complacent and remote. Conservative leaders

:44:47.:44:51.

feel they didn't know about Scotland and have to ask about it as if it is

:44:52.:44:55.

a different place with different weather system. It has become that

:44:56.:44:59.

through devolution, as a result they haven't got a feel of the way the

:45:00.:45:02.

campaign is going, any more than they have a feel for how the

:45:03.:45:06.

Austrian campaign is going. The it is striking the extent to which

:45:07.:45:15.

Scotland has lost touch with London and visa versa. Plenty allows them

:45:16.:45:22.

to be complacent, the numbers for a start? The campaign has only 20% of

:45:23.:45:32.

the vote. In ten days time voters head to the polls for European and

:45:33.:45:37.

local elections, the outcome there could affect what happens further

:45:38.:45:41.

down the line in Scotland. The bedrock of the campaign tomorrow,

:45:42.:45:47.

foot soldiers, they are Labour f those voters start to get

:45:48.:45:49.

disillusioned with the rise of UKIP, there may be an exit from GB may not

:45:50.:46:01.

seem such a bad alternative. You might argue as I would that UKIP is

:46:02.:46:10.

a populist party rising all over Europe, and the SNP in Scotland, the

:46:11.:46:17.

SNP will say that is who we are, look at us versus the nationalists.

:46:18.:46:21.

That is just the Scotland side of things, what happens to the rest of

:46:22.:46:27.

the UK. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, gives us a

:46:28.:46:30.

remarkable political balance, it means we change our Government from

:46:31.:46:33.

time to time, it means there is always a challenge from the left to

:46:34.:46:36.

the right, and right to the left, that is good for democracy. What

:46:37.:46:40.

really scares me about a break up into four separate parliaments is

:46:41.:46:44.

each one of those parliaments will almost certainly remain virtually

:46:45.:46:48.

controlled by one party for as far ahead as one can see, that is a

:46:49.:46:53.

disaster. Is that true, look closely at the last few general elections,

:46:54.:46:57.

in 1997 and 2001, even without Scotland we would still have seen

:46:58.:47:01.

big Labour wins in the rest of the UK.

:47:02.:47:11.

In 2010 Conservatives were well short of an overall majority,

:47:12.:47:16.

without Scotland Conservatives would have had a majority of 19. In other

:47:17.:47:21.

words, England and Wales could argue that they didn't vote for the

:47:22.:47:25.

coalition, but for the Tories, in 2010, Scotland gave them a

:47:26.:47:29.

Government they didn't want. Missing the point entirely, says John

:47:30.:47:37.

McTernan, if the union is lost the Conservatives are out of business? A

:47:38.:47:41.

yes vote would be disastrous for David Cameron, you can't be the

:47:42.:47:44.

leader of the a unionist and Conservative Party and lose the

:47:45.:47:48.

union, and it not damage you. It could be the death knell for the

:47:49.:47:53.

party as a whole. In other words unpick the flag you are left with a

:47:54.:48:00.

blue salter and Red Cross, the very symbol of a cry for help.

:48:01.:48:06.

The refuge camp in Jordan is home to nearly 50,000 Syrian children. As

:48:07.:48:10.

part of the project to help the children deal with their

:48:11.:48:13.

psychological scars, the charity, save the children gave some of them

:48:14.:48:17.

cameras, we leave you with some of the results, good night.

:48:18.:49:28.

Good evening to you, beautiful day for most of us today, as far as

:49:29.:49:36.

Thursday is concerned, a bit more cloud on the way for England and

:49:37.:49:37.

Romanian and Bulgarian immigration, the ethics of animal testing, the targets of Russia sanctions, fish discards and is Scotland drifting away from the UK?

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS