13/05/2014 Newsnight


13/05/2014

The boss of AstraZenica comments on being taken over, and a former defence secretary is being investigated for war crimes. Plus a look at London gangs, Google, and Blondie.


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Transcript


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It's a Titanic battle for what we are told is a vitally important

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British company. But the boss of AstraZeneca admits to Newsnight that

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for all his posturing he will sell the company to Pfizer if the price

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is right. We can't hold out to do a deal, because ultimately we have to

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represent the interests of shareholders. This Nobel

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Prize-winning scientist thinks a cut in research will be inevitable and

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will be disastrous. In his own words, the life of a gang

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member on a London estate. I remember seeing one of them with a

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machete, I thought he was Superman and try my hardest to disarm him and

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end up using it on him. That did not work. And Debbie Harry talks to us

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about 40 years of Blondie. # Soon found out

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# A pain in the ass! If the great American pharmaceutical

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company, Pfizer, succeeds in its attempt to take over the British

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drugs manufacturer, AstraZeneca, jobs will vanish and combined

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research spending will probably fall. That much was confirmed today

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by Pfizer's boss when he appeared before MPs. Although it may have

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been frank, that did little to reassure much of the political class

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who have been worrying very publicly that however good the takeover might

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be for shareholders, it could be catastrophe for British science. Yet

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the boss of the British company he's stalking, although he turned up with

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a had he rehearsed story of the damage done to public health has

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other concerns all together. How is this for corporate speak? Pfizer

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gives employees their own special coin to carry, one side stamped the

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words "own it", to encourage accountability, on the other is

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etched "straight talk", apparently to empower staff. But MPs and

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employees of the rival Pfizer is trying to buy, rather hoped for both

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from its boss Ian Reid. REPORTER: Good morning Mr Reid why should MPs

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here in Britain be able to he is trust your assurances on jobs? I'm

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looking forward to talking to the committee today. What chance of

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Pfizer's promises on jobs coming unstuck? The commitment of 20% of a

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global company's R in the UK is an unprecedented commitment. Yes, but

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in terms of numbers that is no hard commitment to either sustain or

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increase the numbers employed. There is a hard commitment of how many

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employees are successful growing company is prepared to put in the

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UK. Your two previous sizeable increases in company size have meant

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a sizeable reduction each time in the number of jobs? We will be

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efficient by some reduction in jobs, what I cannot tell you is how much

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or how many or where. You must have some indication and forward planning

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about the number of such staff you are going to drop, how many? I can't

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tell you today how many people are going to be in research and

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development in the combined company. I haven't even seen the books of

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AstraZeneca. So far so not quite clear on job numbers. But what about

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that big fat tax cut? Pfizer stands to gain if they global gobble up the

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firm? That is sensitive information and premature to disclose that this

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early in the process. Would you agree there is substantial tax

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benefits to your company and their shareholders if this merger goes

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ahead? Yes there are. Thank you. Mr Reid was short on specifics, but the

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committee was introduced to that special corporate coin. Remember the

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one Pfizer's staff get to keep in their pockets. But MPs believed he

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flipped it the wrong way. I believe you span it this morning and got

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"own it", and we haven't had the level of straight talk we needed,

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perhaps you should toss is again when you come tomorrow. I can

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straight talk right now. Ian Reid had more than an hour trying to

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answer repeated questions fromp. He said again and again he's a man of

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his word and he can trust the commitments. But the sense was that

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MPs inside just did not believe him. MPs were entirely more sympathetic

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to the Frenchman in charge of the British company AstraZeneca. He

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claimed the proprosed takeover of his business pritt bithe Americans

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could claim lives and it could delay the release of certain drugs. One of

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the medicines was delayed and a father died from lung cancer, it was

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relaid because in the meantime the two companies were involved in

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savings costs and taxes. Quite a charge. Pfizer's desire to save tax

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could harm patients, later I asked him if he was willing to stick to

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it. You say lives are at risk if the deal goes ahead, is an emotive way

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to get your way on this and push it away? I'm only highlighting

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potential risks associated with this transaction. You know, we have a

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very broad portfolio, we built it over the last 18 months and we have

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made enormous progress. We have a few product that is are really

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exciting and moving very quickly, and addressing cancer types for

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think which there is no option today. Isn't it the case though that

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if the price was right, you would accept this deal? We will consider

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proposals, offers that are made to us in the context of the value, the

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price that's offered and the potential other terms. But certainly

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the price that is offered is a very important dimension. But you can't

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rule out doing a deal then? We have a if you had dubry duty - fiduciary

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duty and we have to represent the shareholder, if the price reflected

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is good for the company and justifies the transaction and tax,

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we will have to make a positive recommendation. You would recommend

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a deal even though you say the disruption could cause lives? The

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disruption is substantial but manageable, but it is certainly a

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big risk that we would have to manage as best we can. Ultimately we

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have a large number of stakeholders that we are responsible to, but of

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course very importantly our shareholders, so the value that is

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offered we will certainly have to consider. You have said the

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disruption is manageable if the price is right? It is a risk, that

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is what I'm saying, what we are looking at is an overall proposal

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that reflects the value and the operating model. We don't know what

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the operating model will look like and how we would conduct the

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business of the new company. Therefore it is hard for us to

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understand whether we would be able to manage this risk or not. Pfizer

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are committing for five years, how long do your commitments to jobs and

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investment in the UK run? Our commitment

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investment in the UK run? Our UK is ten years, 20, 30

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investment in the UK run? Our committed to this country. We

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investment in the UK run? Our you butt this isn't some kind

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investment in the UK run? Our David versus Golaith battle, you are

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investment in the UK run? Our companies, both of whom who have

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investment in the UK run? Our made job cuts in recent years in

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investment in the UK run? Our UK. Both of whom are taking

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advantage of UK tax rules U said this morning you didn't pay any

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corporation tax here last year? I think we have gone through a

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transition, suddenly we have, you know very well we have our own

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challenges in terms of revenue. But challenges in terms of revenue. But

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I think we have made the point clear that we are reaching the end of our

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transition, we that we are reaching the end of our

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pipeline, we are going to be launching new products over the next

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few years and we want to return to growth as quickly as possible.

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few years and we want to return to you very much for talking to us.

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Now we have a physicist at the University of Manchester, who won a

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Nobel Prize for University of Manchester, who won a

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FRAF even if, a virtually University of Manchester, who won a

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graphene, a virtually indetruckedable material made from a

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layer of atoms, and guest from Oxford.

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The kerfuffle is all about the future of science in this country,

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if the takeover future of science in this country,

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share that worry? I'm sharing future of science in this country,

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worry about this country developed the model in which it is

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very profitable to be my on pick, -- myopic, it is easy to get the gold

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and not care about the goose. Professor you have had

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and not care about the goose. sponsored by both companies, do you

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and not care about the goose. worry? So I do worry. I also worry

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that we will worry? So I do worry. I also worry

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pharmaceutical industry that the country really needs as well. So we

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have been funded both by Pfizer and AstraZeneca to do

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have been funded both by Pfizer and research. And I would say there is

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one positive aspect of this merger or takeover, and that is that

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Pfizer, or it looks as if they are going to invest very substantially

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into the UK. Well, for what the assurance is worth?

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into the UK. Well, for what the business person, so if they do

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invest as I understand 20% of the R budget into the UK, it may be

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business reasons for R budget into the UK, it may be

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would like to think that is the science base and infrastructure here

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is excellent? Although the cumulative total of both Pfizer and

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AstraZeneca if the merger goes ahead according to the boss, the amount

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spent on R will be slightly smaller than it is now? I don't know

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the details of that, if we can attract Pfizer to invest or reinvest

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in this country what I would like to see is multiple other pharmaceutical

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companies following their lead. It isn't just Pfizer who have downsized

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their research in this country over the last decade or so, there is

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other pharmaceutical companies. If we can provide an environment to

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attract three or four pharmaceutical companies back to the UK it would be

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fantastic. It is not a perfect analogy but the car industry might

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be one. We have Honda, Nissan, Toyota here, I would like to see the

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same kind of thing happen in the pharmaindustry. -- pharma-industry.

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Can you see that happening here? I wish I would be that optimistic,

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that we as human beings developed a completely new model of the economy

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when we don't have an external strategy. We forget about basic

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science and fundamental knowledge. Because look at executive boards,

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what they are interested in, they are human beings, they are

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interested in appreciation, imagine someone from the board would say we

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will invest a lot of money 50 years from now, they would be immediately

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taken to an asylum. They are interested in bringing shareholders

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value. And one of the ways to cut research and that is what has been

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happening, with companies, with Governments. It didn't stop you

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inventing a completely revolutionary substance did it? At some intuitive

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level people do understand that we need fundamental knowledge that it

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is eventually the basis for the technology, but the disstabs between

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fundamental knowledge and the market, it is a very long chain and

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the chain is very obscure, try for example how many people will you

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find who would understand how quantum mechanics plays a role in

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computers. Some people at school will probably learn that Bill Gates

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invented the computer and Steve Jobs invented the mobile phone. It is 40,

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50 years between the discovery. But, yes, we still understand, but there

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is always a pressure on both Governments to cut fundamental

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research at the universities and the companies have this model operating,

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new models operating that will have everything fundamentally done at the

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universities. Why are you so optimistic aboutifier? -- Pfizer?

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I'm not optimistic about Pfizer, if we can attract them here, the idea

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will be to get other companies come in, it is not just a question of

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optimisim it is a question of need as well. In this country we have an

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ageing population, looking forward decades ahead. There will be very

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serious medical problems, for example, with Alzheimer's disease,

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and at the moment there are no real cures for those in prospect at the

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moment. This is basic science problem that will involve investment

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for tens of decades. Is that investment more likely if this

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takeover goes ahead? Yeah, I can't comment on, that I think the

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translation of the basic biomedical research in this country, which is

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very strong at the moment, into actual medicines is much more likely

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if we have a strong pharmaceutical industry, local to the basic

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research. That would imply that you this is it is better AstraZeneca

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isn't taken over, wouldn't it? Obviously the best thing would be if

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both companies were super-strong and doing super-well and both located in

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the UK and we had two or three others. Are you in favour of the

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takeover or not? I can't comment on the business side, from the science

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side if it does happen there is potential to use it to engage or

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encourage other industries to come to the UK. This idea that there is a

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sort of critical mass at work, when you get a successful company,

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successfully relocated here, or developing here. Does that work in

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your experience? There should be a critical mass, of course, when the

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mass becomes too critical it becomes what is happening now. That was a

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bad idea to come at you with a science metaphor, I agree! It can

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become an explosion, yes! But big companies in terms of research, they

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are looking at what is happening at the universities, that's where

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fundamental research is based these days, it was not like that 30, 40,

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years ago, a lot of fundamental research was in companies

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themselves. Has something happened in capitalism? Yes indeed. What has

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happened then? I said before there is no external looking, that makes

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us saying imagine the moon programme, it is unimaginable

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because the moon programme was only because people were afraid of

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nuclear war and people did understand that technology is very

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important. And now it is more we are living in a safe world and we are

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sinking, OK, not 50 years, not many parents think what their children

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how they would go to the university in 10, 20 years, so you would like

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both of the companies to think what will happen with this company in 0

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years. This isn't a specifically Pfizer problem? It isn't,

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AstraZeneca is presented like a bullet company. It is the same. A

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couple of years ago to tell you an anecdote, I had a dinner with the

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chief executive officer, he was complaining that their shares went

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up and he was disappointed, I said why not close all the research labs,

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well it is not of course because of my advice, but he later, he was

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later following exactly the same scenario, and their shares precisely

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went up, positively. Thank you very much. The European Court of Justice

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handed down a fascinating ruling today, a Spaniard had complained

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that when you googled his name, you can discover once upon time he was

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found guilty of an unchess charged debt.

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found guilty of an unchess charged listen when there are complaints

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about this, and comply with requests to have personal information removed

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from requests. It is personal to celebrities who Google themselves

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and find untrue stories. But it has implications for everyone. What are

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we entitled to know about others and what are others entitled to stop us

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knowing. ??FORCEDWHI What happens when you Google yourself, don't

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pretend you haven't done it. If you don't like the results that come

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back, perhaps it would be nice to make them go away. Two more or less

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everyone's surprise the European Court of Justice, which is there to

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interpret EU law has concluded that an individual can get Google or

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another search engine to remove a link that is either out of date or

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damaging. This is the man who wanted to be forgotten but

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damaging. This is the man who wanted come. Mario Gonzales, he had his

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home repossessed in 1998, he was unhappy that this embarrassing

:18:45.:18:48.

feature appears when his name is searched. He believes today's an

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important ruling. TRANSLATION: If Google is great tool it is

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important, if people have a problem with an image or photo that is

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damaging and the data isn't relevant, they ask for it to be

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withdrawn. The ruling is only about the search engines and the links

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they return, it doesn't say that the original article has to be removed.

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It can stay on-line, just unlinked to. Particularly confusing his Emma

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Carr from Big Brother Watch, since the judges have gone against a

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previous decision? The Advocate-Generals are right that

:19:26.:19:29.

saying to Google that you have to remove legitimate content is wrong,

:19:30.:19:32.

it d have a chilling effect on free speech. For this new ruling to come

:19:33.:19:36.

out and say completely the opposite was a huge surprise. We need to

:19:37.:19:40.

digest what this really means, and whether this in practice can happen.

:19:41.:19:45.

Previously it was accepted that the original publishers of the

:19:46.:19:49.

information were responsible for it. If they took the information down it

:19:50.:19:53.

would eventually disappear from search engines. Now, under the terms

:19:54.:19:58.

of EU law it appears that the search engines control the information.

:19:59.:20:03.

That's absolutely delighted the European Commission who have been

:20:04.:20:06.

pressing for just such a change. The ruling is good news, because it

:20:07.:20:10.

confirms the position of the European Commission. First that

:20:11.:20:14.

European law can apply to a search engine and that Google is a

:20:15.:20:18.

controller of data, and can be regarded as a controller, and this

:20:19.:20:22.

is the position the commission has taken in this case, this is also the

:20:23.:20:26.

position that we have taken in the European data protection forum, so

:20:27.:20:30.

it is, above all, not only good for the commission but citizens who will

:20:31.:20:35.

see their data better protected. The European Commission is at the moment

:20:36.:20:38.

trying to bring in new data protection rules that would give

:20:39.:20:42.

people the so called right to be forgotten. This was mainly about

:20:43.:20:46.

social media, to prevent web sites keeping data about you if you decide

:20:47.:20:49.

to close your account. But should we worry that the EU judges want to

:20:50.:20:53.

include search engines as well? The court had to strike a very difficult

:20:54.:20:58.

balance between the fundamental freedom, fundamental rights they are

:20:59.:21:02.

called of freedom of expression and privacy, all it did was say that

:21:03.:21:06.

Google isn't outside the law. It kicks the ball back into play, it is

:21:07.:21:11.

actually national courts that then have to decide whether somebody's

:21:12.:21:15.

complaint is really excessive and invasive of low privacy. It is often

:21:16.:21:24.

said the Internet is written in concrete, but that could be

:21:25.:21:28.

crumbling, giving us more control about what people see about us when

:21:29.:21:33.

they search. Some of the most senior figures in

:21:34.:21:36.

the British defence establishment, including the former Secretary of

:21:37.:21:43.

State Jeff Hon, Hoon, are being investigated by the International

:21:44.:21:48.

Criminal Court in the Hague, it is set up to bring to justice those

:21:49.:21:52.

accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity. The United States

:21:53.:21:56.

doesn't accept its jurisdiction, precisely to avoid this sort of

:21:57.:21:59.

embarrassment. The current British Government says it will help with

:22:00.:22:06.

the examination, but it doubts much will come of it because this country

:22:07.:22:12.

is already investigating the claims. Videos shot in Iraq in 2003, it

:22:13.:22:17.

shows a British corporal shouting and swearing at hood the detainees,

:22:18.:22:22.

some are held in stress positions, meant to have been banned. A day

:22:23.:22:27.

after that was filmed this man was found battered to death in British

:22:28.:22:31.

custody in the same detention centre. Corporal Donald Payne, who

:22:32.:22:39.

we can't identify, was the only person punished forped what, he was

:22:40.:22:42.

jailed for a year and expelled from the army. For years campaigners have

:22:43.:22:46.

argued abuse was far more widespread, through six years of

:22:47.:22:52.

military action in Iraq. In 2006 the International Criminal Court in the

:22:53.:22:55.

Hague was first asked to look at allegations of war crimes. At the

:22:56.:22:59.

time they determined the required threshold was not met. In 2010,

:23:00.:23:05.

after calls for a wider inquiry, the MoD set up a team to investigate

:23:06.:23:10.

allegations of historic abuse. It has paid out more than ?15 million

:23:11.:23:16.

to settle 200 claims of mistreatment and unlawful detention. Then in

:23:17.:23:22.

January, a file containing 250 new pages of factual and legal analysis

:23:23.:23:27.

was passed to the ICC by lawyers representing detainees. It contained

:23:28.:23:32.

evidence of what they said was more than 400 new cases of mistreatment

:23:33.:23:36.

and unlawful killing. Among those named in the file a former Armed

:23:37.:23:42.

Forces Minister, and former Defence Secretary, Jeff Hoon. Today the

:23:43.:23:46.

international criminal court said it would now open its preliminary

:23:47.:23:50.

examination into the allegations. It is the first time the UK has ever

:23:51.:23:59.

been the subject of an ICC probe. We are not saying we will go after the

:24:00.:24:03.

military or we will go after the civilian or political, we will be

:24:04.:24:07.

looking at the persons, whoever they are, who bear responsibility for

:24:08.:24:11.

those crimes. The MoD has long claimed the vast majority of

:24:12.:24:15.

soldiers served in Iraq with professionalism and decency.

:24:16.:24:19.

Ministers say they completely reject the suggestion that abuse was

:24:20.:24:24.

systematic. I have never seen any suggestion made that there was a

:24:25.:24:28.

policy of abusing prisoners being carried out by Her Majesty's forces,

:24:29.:24:31.

and it would be an extraordinary thing if it were true, it would be

:24:32.:24:36.

contrary to every tenet under which British forces have always operated.

:24:37.:24:42.

But more than a decade after Mr Mousa was killed in this detainee

:24:43.:24:47.

facility, accusations of wider abuse will not go away. When Britain

:24:48.:24:51.

signed up to the International Criminal Court, it surely would not

:24:52.:24:54.

have seen itself being the subject of any investigation. Even at the

:24:55.:25:00.

earliest stage. The decision to reopen the

:25:01.:25:03.

investigation into the MoD was taken after a 250-page dossier was

:25:04.:25:08.

submitted to the ICC by the British law firm Public Interest Lawyers,

:25:09.:25:14.

headed by the human rights lawyer Phil Shiner. I spoke to him earlier.

:25:15.:25:18.

The gist of the case is throughout the period that the UK were in Iraq

:25:19.:25:26.

there was systemic issues leading to a detention and interrogation policy

:25:27.:25:30.

that was completely unlawful, which means there are now hundreds and

:25:31.:25:34.

hundreds of Iraqis coming forward and saying they were subjected to

:25:35.:25:40.

prohibited interrogation practices and techniques, and there are also

:25:41.:25:43.

unfortunately lots of people skilled. Killed. Are you really

:25:44.:25:48.

suggesting that soldiers on operations were given orders to

:25:49.:25:52.

behave in ways you believe to be illegal? I'm suggesting that the

:25:53.:26:00.

training materials and training manuals I have seen and we have all

:26:01.:26:05.

seen, and in the inquiry they were analysed and made public, makes it

:26:06.:26:12.

absolutely clear that at Chick Sands, the interrogation training

:26:13.:26:17.

for questioners and ingators was completely unlawful. I'm also

:26:18.:26:25.

suggesting that there are at least 11 other deaths in custody just like

:26:26.:26:31.

Mr Mousa that we know of and the Ministry of Defence point blank

:26:32.:26:35.

refuse to tell us of. Or how many deaths in custody is the Ministry of

:26:36.:26:40.

Defence aware of. You are alleging it goes right to the top, up to the

:26:41.:26:45.

Defence Secretary himself? I am indeed, Geoff Hoon was in charge to

:26:46.:26:51.

the run up to the invasion of Iraq, that is when all these people were

:26:52.:26:55.

trained. If he didn't know he ought to have known. But the fact that he

:26:56.:26:59.

didn't know specifically isn't going to help him one bit. Are any of your

:27:00.:27:07.

claimants former insurgents? As far as I'm aware every single person who

:27:08.:27:12.

is claiming, and making allegations of torture, cruelty and inhuman

:27:13.:27:16.

treatment is a civilian in the wrong place at the wrong time. So there

:27:17.:27:21.

are no claimants who are former insurgents? I think you are making a

:27:22.:27:31.

reference to the on going inquiry, I thought you were, and the Ministry

:27:32.:27:34.

of Defence are trying to make a great deal. We will have to wait and

:27:35.:27:39.

see what is said about the very serious allegations of torture,

:27:40.:27:44.

cruel and inhuman treatment which he will report upon in December. But is

:27:45.:27:48.

it the Ministry of Defence's case then that if you are an insurgent

:27:49.:27:52.

you can do what you like to them. That is obviously not the case, and

:27:53.:27:58.

that didn't help marine A in the recent murder case from Afghanistan.

:27:59.:28:02.

But it is the case, is it not, that some of your witnesses there are

:28:03.:28:08.

former insurgents? I have just said and I will say it again, as far as

:28:09.:28:17.

I'm I aware, none of my clients who are breaches to the prohibition of

:28:18.:28:24.

torture before the prosecutor are insurgents. If some of my clients

:28:25.:28:28.

are it will come out. It makes no difference whatsoever. You are

:28:29.:28:32.

saying that you have done this entire case free, gratis and for

:28:33.:28:42.

nothing, correct? Correct. Why? Because I'm a principled human

:28:43.:28:46.

rights lawyer, and it seemed to me with the evidence that I had,

:28:47.:28:51.

particularly after the Mousa inquiry that it was the right thing to do. I

:28:52.:28:57.

know that is not what the Ministry of Defence want to hear. But it

:28:58.:29:00.

happens to be the truth. Some lawyers, like myself, actually

:29:01.:29:05.

believe in the rule of law. We actually believe in fairness and

:29:06.:29:09.

justice and democracy. We are prepared to pursue that, at times at

:29:10.:29:15.

our own quite considerable expense. That is not what the Ministry of

:29:16.:29:19.

Defence want to hear this evening, it happens to be the truth. They

:29:20.:29:23.

know it really. Thank you very much for joining us. Major General Tim

:29:24.:29:31.

Cross was the most senior general involved in the planning for a

:29:32.:29:36.

post-war Iraq, and is part of the House of Commons defence committee.

:29:37.:29:39.

He joins me from his home in Hampshire. When you hear that sort

:29:40.:29:43.

of dedication from Mr Shiner, taking the case for nothing, his commitment

:29:44.:29:47.

to the cause shining through at every level. It is rather impressive

:29:48.:29:52.

isn't it? In one sense it is, but I would say his comment that some

:29:53.:29:56.

people believe in the rule of law I think is a bit unfair. I would

:29:57.:29:59.

suggest that the vast majority of people, lawyers, Government

:30:00.:30:04.

ministers, and certainly senior military people, absolutely believe

:30:05.:30:09.

in the rule of law and would want to ensure as far as possible that rule

:30:10.:30:13.

of law is followed on operational theatres. We shouldn't be holding

:30:14.:30:18.

him up as a par gone of virtue. I don't know him but I know his

:30:19.:30:22.

reputation, his reputation is a bit sullied, it has to be said. If

:30:23.:30:27.

indeed no wrong has been done, the British authorities surely have

:30:28.:30:33.

nothing to fear from an inquiry by the international criminal -- --

:30:34.:30:45.

criminal court. I have been a witness, and they are long and

:30:46.:30:49.

ponderous, if the ICC have a look at this inquiry again, and we have

:30:50.:30:52.

signed up to the ICC, as your reporter said. We should do all we

:30:53.:30:57.

can to assist in that process. It is important to say that the ICC was

:30:58.:31:02.

set up to investigate issues like genocide and mass war crimes and so

:31:03.:31:09.

on, it wasn't established to investigate individual or relatively

:31:10.:31:13.

small cases, nor was it set up to do this inquiry if the host Government,

:31:14.:31:16.

in our case the British Government, were doing an inquiry themselves

:31:17.:31:21.

into this instance. And the UK is doing an inquiry. If British

:31:22.:31:25.

soldiers were mistreating Iraqis, prisoners or otherwise, that is

:31:26.:31:30.

surely something that should be investigated and for which people

:31:31.:31:32.

should be brought to justice, isn't it? Absolutely it should be. That

:31:33.:31:37.

has happened and the British Government have set up an Iraqi

:31:38.:31:42.

inquiry unit to look at some of these issues, and that is absolutely

:31:43.:31:46.

right. And anybody who would suggest that over the last 10, 12 years the

:31:47.:31:50.

tens of thousands indeed hundreds of thousands of soldiers who have

:31:51.:31:53.

served in Iraq they there haven't been issues like this would be

:31:54.:31:57.

kidding themselves. They need to be investigated. But I do think the

:31:58.:32:02.

point I'm trying to make sheer is the International Criminal Court, we

:32:03.:32:05.

are not talking about genocide, I don't believe we are talking about

:32:06.:32:09.

systemic or systematic abuses, which have been supported by the chain of

:32:10.:32:13.

command, all the way up to the Ministry of Defence, I think that is

:32:14.:32:16.

idle to suggest that. But individual cases, yes, there have been mistakes

:32:17.:32:20.

and yes they should be investigated and if people are found to have done

:32:21.:32:24.

criminal actions they should be punished. That has happened. Your

:32:25.:32:29.

initial response to this accusation from Mr Shiner is to respond his

:32:30.:32:33.

reputation was some what sullied, for which you have no evidence? I

:32:34.:32:40.

said I haven't met him but heard a lot about him, that is the

:32:41.:32:43.

impression I got. The House of Commons defence committee report

:32:44.:32:47.

that was sub illusioned recently has look -- published recently has

:32:48.:32:51.

looked at some of these issues, it is a very good report and I

:32:52.:32:54.

recommend people read it. There are potential conhe is uences from all

:32:55.:33:01.

of these issues, I don't know -- cons sequences from these issues, I

:33:02.:33:04.

wouldn't suggest anything other than I have heard. You have no evidence

:33:05.:33:08.

for that? I'm sorry. You have no evidence for your claim then? I have

:33:09.:33:17.

said what I have said Jeremy, no I would say it is more than tittle

:33:18.:33:22.

tattle. But there is no point in entering that debate, I have said

:33:23.:33:25.

what I have said. The important issue here is I have no objection at

:33:26.:33:29.

all to these investigations being conducted, but we need to look at it

:33:30.:33:33.

in the context is it right for the ICC to be doing this work, should

:33:34.:33:36.

our own Government be doing it, in my view this is a UK Government

:33:37.:33:41.

issue and I regret the fact it has gone to the International Criminal

:33:42.:33:48.

Court. It is generally thought to be one of

:33:49.:33:52.

the most difficult things a young man can attempt, how do you escape

:33:53.:33:55.

from the world of gangs. We are going to hear now the story of one

:33:56.:33:59.

young Londoner who spent nearly a decade rising through the ranks of

:34:00.:34:04.

his gang, and until the futility of it all dawned upon him as he was

:34:05.:34:08.

treated for serious knife wounds. He spoke to us through the offices of

:34:09.:34:12.

the charity Gangs Line, to tell us how he changed his life or jumped

:34:13.:34:17.

off. For fear of retribution, he asked us to call him JT, his words

:34:18.:34:23.

are spoken by the actor, Ashley Thomas.

:34:24.:34:31.

Gangs, I seen them when I was younger, I saw a stabbing when I was

:34:32.:34:36.

nine, I was sleeping and someone was shouting, I opened my curtain, there

:34:37.:34:39.

was a green door and blood on it, the guy was holding his body, I

:34:40.:34:44.

called my dad and he told me go back to bed. So yeah I see that. I

:34:45.:34:48.

enjoyed football a lot, that is what I should be now, a professional

:34:49.:34:52.

footballer, I had to stop going training and started hanging around,

:34:53.:34:56.

that is when I messed up. There was a football cage and a lot of older

:34:57.:35:01.

boys there, they were having problems with others, that was how

:35:02.:35:04.

the rivalry started, always violence. We saw one of the olders

:35:05.:35:11.

killed and that got to us, I was 15, the older guys told us how to do

:35:12.:35:15.

things, beef and make money, don't leave your boy, don't run, don't

:35:16.:35:19.

snitch, don't get caught slipping, telling me not to slip it telling me

:35:20.:35:24.

to have my wet on. If I meet someone a they have a knife and I don't, I

:35:25.:35:27.

will get stabbed. I have hurt people, when you are jumping, when

:35:28.:35:31.

you are in this life you know what's coming, and I knew in the back of my

:35:32.:35:37.

head I would end up in a peak situation, I would get stabbed or

:35:38.:35:40.

killed. I would never go out of my way to hurt an innocent, never, I

:35:41.:35:44.

always go someone that I have got beef with. Innocents, they are

:35:45.:35:49.

intimidated by me, I don't like that. You hear the car lock, you are

:35:50.:35:54.

walking and the person will cross the road, it is not nice. I didn't

:35:55.:35:57.

think about my actions, I just did what I did and kept it moving. And

:35:58.:36:04.

get respect, girls, girls love a bad boy innit, fee MRAELs are impressed

:36:05.:36:09.

by violence, I don't know -- females are impressed by violence, I don't

:36:10.:36:12.

know why. The olders told us go shop for this guy and that way, they will

:36:13.:36:17.

give you say an eighth of weed broke down into shots, it was instinct, we

:36:18.:36:21.

knew what to do and how to get rid of it, sell it on, sell it on to the

:36:22.:36:26.

cats to anyone You know what keeps people going, money, nobody wants to

:36:27.:36:31.

run around stabbing and shooting people, if you make money because

:36:32.:36:36.

you are on the roads and seeing dough people will continue. I was

:36:37.:36:40.

seeing from weed ?450 a day, that is too much work, it is not like you

:36:41.:36:45.

finish at this time, 24-hours, sleepless nights, it starts getting

:36:46.:36:49.

long. I clocked on stupid when I was sliced, I remember clearly I got a

:36:50.:36:52.

phone call, one of my lot was sitting waiting to go to court, it

:36:53.:36:57.

is peak, it can be anyone from any area there, I met this pig and he

:36:58.:37:05.

smack in my face, and we do it together, he was come, come, I got

:37:06.:37:10.

there, there was there lot, three cars came, I thought I know what I'm

:37:11.:37:14.

doing, I will run at him, my lot have legged it, thinking it would be

:37:15.:37:19.

a fist fight, I was getting my head kicked in, they got closer and it

:37:20.:37:25.

was a blur, one had a machete, I thought I was Superman, and I

:37:26.:37:29.

thought I would disarm him and end up using it on him, that did not

:37:30.:37:34.

work. Flaps were coming out of the arm of my jacket, my arm was split,

:37:35.:37:41.

I thought this is peak, when I was going into hospital and I was

:37:42.:37:44.

thinking about revenge, as soon as I came out and I would do what I was

:37:45.:37:48.

doing, I was operated on straight away. They put you to sleep, I woke

:37:49.:37:52.

up not angry, I thought what is the point in getting out of the bed and

:37:53.:37:56.

doing something knowing I will go to jail for it or someone coming to do

:37:57.:38:03.

me again. I don't tell my friends I would jump off, none of them jumped

:38:04.:38:06.

off, everyone is thinking the same thing, this is getting long. If you

:38:07.:38:10.

told one they would say you are soft. Then I met a girl, I met a

:38:11.:38:16.

girl, and started seeing opportunities to make good money and

:38:17.:38:19.

keeping it without getting arrested and put in cells, I thought yeah,

:38:20.:38:24.

man, the beef goes on. Even now if I have to see someone from them sites

:38:25.:38:29.

I would have to do something. If I want to go to west London I will be

:38:30.:38:33.

carrying something just in case it gets political. I'm much happier

:38:34.:38:37.

though, much less stress, I will never fully go back on the block,

:38:38.:38:41.

that is over for me. My little brother is ten, he got stopped and

:38:42.:38:46.

searched, they said he was looking suspicious, older guys make younger

:38:47.:38:51.

boys carry for them, he's a good boy, for him it is football, that's

:38:52.:38:55.

it. If he wants to carry anything for a guy I would kick his cars.

:38:56.:39:00.

Yeah man, I would kick his cars. Then I would confront the guy.

:39:01.:39:07.

You know you are old when the band to which you danced is releasing its

:39:08.:39:13.

40th anniversary album and you discover its rock goddess singer is

:39:14.:39:18.

68. That is the state untold number of us find ourselves in with the

:39:19.:39:25.

release this week of Bondar's Ghost of Download album. They are playing

:39:26.:39:30.

Glastonbury this summer. Because the restraining order is still in place

:39:31.:39:34.

I wasn't allowed to go when the invitation came to meet them. Kirsty

:39:35.:39:43.

went and spoke to Debbie Harry and Chris Steyn and saw them performing

:39:44.:39:47.

at the studios. This record is a very collaborative effort, there are

:39:48.:39:53.

a lot of people involved. There is never a grand overview scheme to

:39:54.:39:59.

what we do, I just do what I like as far as music goes. I think some of

:40:00.:40:03.

the fans were upset when I say it is a character and I'm playing a part.

:40:04.:40:12.

# They tell me I should try it # Each way not that sky

:40:13.:40:18.

# What I know that I would learn to # Do the mile high When you started,

:40:19.:40:26.

in a way when Blondie came about, it exploded, you weren't an ingenu, you

:40:27.:40:34.

came out fully formed. I wasn't. You knew what you were doing.

:40:35.:40:38.

came out fully formed. I wasn't. You different to what anyone had ever

:40:39.:40:42.

seen? I guess so. You know, I certainly had an idea that what I

:40:43.:40:48.

wanted to do. But I also feel that a lot of the girls that had strong

:40:49.:40:51.

personas and ideas, you know, lot of the girls that had strong

:40:52.:40:56.

how they didn't get past a certain point. We were very much in the

:40:57.:41:00.

moment back then, I don't know if we were aware of what the effect was as

:41:01.:41:06.

much as in retrospect. There was a certain kind of incredible

:41:07.:41:08.

detatchment, it certain kind of incredible

:41:09.:41:15.

effortless coolness to that. Inside it was trauma! Every minute was

:41:16.:41:27.

trauma! # Inbetween

:41:28.:41:29.

# What I find is pleasing # And I feel it come

:41:30.:41:34.

# Love is so confusing. Did you ever think you still be touring in your

:41:35.:41:38.

60s? It is the same answer as previously, which is we are very

:41:39.:41:41.

much in the moment, I don't think anybody was thinking ahead. But also

:41:42.:41:46.

you know when we were kids the only people in their 50s and 60s were

:41:47.:41:48.

jazz and blues musicians, no musicians were that old. Rock 'n'

:41:49.:41:56.

roll is a young form. When you were young I read that you had actually

:41:57.:42:00.

thought perhaps that you had been Marylin Munro's daughter? Yeah, but

:42:01.:42:03.

I don't think I was ever young actually. I think that I have always

:42:04.:42:06.

I don't think I was ever young # Call me I'm in love

:42:07.:42:14.

When I met her she was 26, I think, and there was a really big deal when

:42:15.:42:19.

Cream Magazine outed her as being 33 years old in the beginning of our

:42:20.:42:25.

career, and that was like whoooo. I just flashed my underpants a took

:42:26.:42:34.

care of that! You said I think you were so glad you had all the radical

:42:35.:42:38.

experiences in your life that you had. Does that also include, you

:42:39.:42:43.

have talked about this so long, the drugs period, are you glad in a way

:42:44.:42:46.

you had that, is that still something you don't regret? I think

:42:47.:42:51.

I regret certain aspects of it for sure. But you know it is part of,

:42:52.:42:59.

definitely part of the culture and the times and I certainly think I

:43:00.:43:04.

was you know of a mind to experiment and I think that I stillam perhaps

:43:05.:43:11.

not in the drug world but I think experimentation and trying things is

:43:12.:43:16.

that's deeply rooted in me. It is a problem with drugs and smoking pot

:43:17.:43:20.

every day is it makes everything have the same importance. You know

:43:21.:43:24.

that the little things are as important as the big things, and I

:43:25.:43:27.

don't know if that is a good mental state to be in. We're going to do

:43:28.:43:40.

rapture, after the guitar solo how do you want to do that? We never do

:43:41.:43:45.

the same thing twice. You are funnily rude to Clem? He's a

:43:46.:43:50.

complete pain in the ass but he's great drummer. His playing gets

:43:51.:43:55.

better, he's living the dream. It is like this old family situation, it

:43:56.:43:59.

gets like that. The band is pretty stable now, really, but there are

:44:00.:44:03.

aspects of that. All right, whatever. The creative partnership,

:44:04.:44:09.

you had to have each other for this didn't you? Yeah, it is a weird

:44:10.:44:19.

thing, click, it goes on. # That's very close

:44:20.:44:23.

When you actually split up romantically did it not make any

:44:24.:44:27.

difference to the work? While there was some moments of... There was a

:44:28.:44:32.

period when we weren't working for a year or so, and then it just started

:44:33.:44:37.

up again. Debt is the godmother -- Deb is the godmother to the kids?

:44:38.:44:42.

Are you good at fairy godmother things? I'm terrible. I still

:44:43.:44:48.

haven't left them with her yet? What age are they? Eight and ten? Really?

:44:49.:44:57.

You have had a life and rock 'n' roll, do you feel you are a lifer,

:44:58.:45:01.

that has been in a sense that has been the entire focus of your life?

:45:02.:45:06.

God forbid we are on death row, we are lifers! You know I don't know if

:45:07.:45:15.

we will retire ever, I keep hearing that as soon as you retire you are

:45:16.:45:18.

dead in five years, you have to keep working. We are lucky and appreciate

:45:19.:45:29.

it and I mean I certainly never expected to have this kind of life,

:45:30.:45:34.

I don't know if my kind of life actually existed when I was a child,

:45:35.:45:40.

there was nothing really to pattern myself about. I think you know I

:45:41.:45:45.

knew that I wanted to perform and you know I think originally I was a

:45:46.:45:50.

little girl and I wanted to be a movie star! My ideas were probably

:45:51.:46:00.

always very visual and that has attributed to me sort of creating

:46:01.:46:14.

this Blondie persona. Is there anything you regret that you haven't

:46:15.:46:20.

done yet or you still want to do, are you two cooking up something

:46:21.:46:25.

else? Sure, plenty of stuff. There is this little comedy workshop I

:46:26.:46:29.

have enjoyed doing recently, so I'm not funny you know but I play it

:46:30.:46:37.

very straight. You are pretty funny! Are you funny? Him? He's funny!

:46:38.:46:46.

She's funny too. We can be funny. She has a good sense of humour. That

:46:47.:46:53.

was nice. That was Kirsty talking to Blondie, you can see the full

:46:54.:46:58.

Blondie sessions if you press the red button on your remote at the end

:46:59.:47:02.

of the programme. It is on iPlayer too. That's it from us, the BBC's

:47:03.:47:07.

body clock day today revealed among other things that smartphones and

:47:08.:47:12.

computers trick the body by emitting blue light which makes it think that

:47:13.:47:16.

it is not really time to go to sleep. At last we all understand the

:47:17.:47:20.

reason for this programme's colour scheme. Well it's finished now.

:47:21.:47:23.

Sleep well. (Soft jazz music) After the big downpours that many of

:47:24.:48:12.

us experienced during the course of Tuesday, Wednesday is looking a lot

:48:13.:48:15.

better although it is not going to be a perfect day. There is some

:48:16.:48:18.

cloud and rain in the forecast. Let's start with Northern Ireland

:48:19.:48:23.

first of all where the weather is not looking all that great. Cloudy

:48:24.:48:24.

The boss of Astra Zenica comments on being taken over, and a former defence secretary is being investigated for war crimes.

Plus a look at London gangs, Google, and Debbie Harry and Blondie.


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