Browse content similar to 30/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The can he kidnapped Israeli teenagers are found dead, in a pit | :00:00. | :00:12. | |
on the West Bank. Hamas is getting the blame. And if history is a | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
guide, the Israeli response will be emotional, but could it also be | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
disproportionate. We hear from the Israelis and Palestinians. Also | :00:21. | :00:29. | |
tonight: # Your run own body | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
# Let me run mine Another well-loved children's | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
entertainer turns out to be a predatory hypocrite. Rofl Harris is | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
found guilty of sexually assaulting children. We asked would we notice | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
the same crimes today? The first UK TV interview with the | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
western intelligence agent who says he infiltrated Al-Qaeda. If I made a | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
mistake talking in my sleep or anything, I would have been exposed | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
and I would have ended up being crucified. | :01:02. | :01:13. | |
Hamas will pay, the Israeli Government is already promising | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
fierce punishment for the deaths of three teenage Jewish settler, found | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
dead, hidden under rocks in a field near Hebron in the West Bank. Let's | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
go straight there tonight and get the latest from the Middle East | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
correspondent. What is happening where you are? I'm close to the | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
field where that grim discovery was made late this afternoon of the | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
three dead Israeli teenagers. There was an Israeli search party that had | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
been looking in this area, which is just outside of Hebron. Here we're | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
only a ten-minute drive from that busy hitch hiking junction which is | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
where the three young Israelis were last seen alive. It is thought they | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
were trying to get a ride home for the weekend when they disappeared. | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
Now the Israeli security cabinet is still meeting tonight to try to | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
decide on its response to all of this. But already it has been made | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
very clear Israel has said consistently that it believes Hamas | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
was responsible for what happened to these teenagers. We have had those | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
strong remarks from the Israeli Prime Minister saying Hamas is to | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
blame, Hamas will pay. Now the Hamas spokesman in Gaza also told the BBC | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
that any attempt to attack the Islamist group would, he said, open | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
the gates of hell. And I should say the Israeli military operation to | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
try to find these teenagers has really targeted Hamas as well over | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
the past two-and-a-ha weeks. There have been more than 400 Palestinians | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
who have been arrested, most of them are members of Hamas. And what | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
evidence is there for that Israeli charge that Hamas is responsible? | :02:55. | :03:02. | |
Well, interestingly the Hamas leader gave an interview last week, in | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
which he said that Hamas had no information on the missing | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
teenagers, although he did praise anyone who might have carried out | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
their kidnapping. When we have put this question to the Israeli | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
military he said this is the modus operandi of Hamas, they claim Hamas | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
has tried to carry out abductions dozens of time in the West Bank over | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
the past year. And a reminder that Hamas was responsible for the | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
capture of the Israeli soldier held in Gaza for five years. But Hamas | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
hasn't itself come out saying that it is responsible. There was also | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
two main suspects that were named by the Israelis who had links to Hamas. | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
Two men who came from the City of Hebron not far away. But all of this | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
is so worrying for the Palestinian President, Mr Abbas, who just signed | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
two months ago a new political agreement with his political rivals, | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
and they went on to set up a new unity Government, and that new unity | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
Government is very much under pressure tonight. As ever in this | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
conflict it is one side's vitriolic word against the other, as we have | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
seen Israel is intent on blaming ham marks Hamas have denied | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
responsibility. The fear tonight is this appalling event for three | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
families could become part of a wider tragedy for the region. | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
The front page story that has gripped Israel. And now the news the | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
country was dreading, the three missing boys are dead. Their bodies | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
found under a pile of rocks in a field. 19-year-old Eyal and Naftali | :04:47. | :04:55. | |
and Gilad, all 16, all teenage seminary students. The hunt for the | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
boys became a nationwide obsession, triggering a frantic search by | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
Israeli forces. One of the most intensive security operations for | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
years. Troops combed the area near Hebron in the West Bank, where the | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
boys went missing nearly three weeks ago. Sweep s also extended to | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
Palestinian towns and villages across the West Bank. Leading to | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
hundreds of arrests. Including members of the Hamas militant group, | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
the reality Government said was responsible. And then, this evening | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
the breakthrough, which led to the bodies being found. The vicinity is | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
now being cordoned off as Israeli forensic teams and security forces | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
look to discover exactly what happened. | :05:42. | :05:43. | |
Unsurprisingly there has been shock and distress from many Israelis, | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
already groups have gathered near the scene to pray and comfort each | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
other. The Israeli Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, who already | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
warned Hamas that a -- at a cabinet meeting today, he said the boys had | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
been murdered in cold blood and Hamas would pay. Meanwhile the | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
Palestinian President, Mr Abbas, who has already condemned the abductions | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
today summoned an emergency meeting of his minister. He has been under | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
pressure from Israel to end his recent reconciliation with Hamas, | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
that pressure has now intensified. We believe there should be an | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
unequivocal message to the Palestinian leadership, President | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
Abbas, you formed a act with Hamas and we believe that pact has | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
directly led to these Merced. By allowing Hamas to re-establish its | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
presence on the West Bank you have allowed this attack top happen. We | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
believe that all people who oppose terrorism and believe in peace | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
should call upon the Palestinian leadership and President Abbas to | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
break his pact with ham marks to annul the pact. Already tensions are | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
escalating, here Israeli-Arabs protesting at the re-arrest of | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
hundreds of Palestinians because of the abductions. The crowd was | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
dispersed by Israeli riot police. In other incidents five Palestinians | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
lost their lives. There has been new violence too between Israel and | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
Hamas, this was Israeli retaliation for an earlier Hamas rocket attack | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
from Gaza on an Israeli factory. Ham marks which rejects Israel eights | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
accusations that it kidnapped the boys, tonight warned that any | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
military response by Israel would open the gates of hell. It is all a | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
far cry from the peace deal that John Kerry hoped to reach between | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
the Israeli and Palestinian leaders. Tonight President Obama condemned | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
the boys' murders, but above all urged restraint on all sides. At | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
this fraught moment that may be more of a hope than a likelihood. The | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
Israeli ambassador to the UK joins us, what evidence does the Israeli | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
Government have for blaming Hamas? Well obviously we don't share all | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
our evidence publicly, particularly when the search for the two | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
perpetrators is still under way. But a number of things are in this | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
tragic moment very clear. Hamas is an organisation which has been | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
calling for kidnappings. We have seen that since the beginning of | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
last year there were over 49 attempts, mercifully most of which | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
were frustrated, almost all but one were frustrated. We had them talking | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
about blessed are the hands of those who perpetrated this. That is not | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
the only attempt this murderous organisation is making to kill | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
Israelis. We have had in the last 24 hours 16 rockets fired from Gaza on | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
towns and villages inside Israel. On this specific case, are you | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
satisfied that there is concrete, direct evidence that this appalling | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
murder, these appalling three murders were carried out by Hamas? | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
The answer is yes, we are absolutely clear, that is the basis for the | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
investigation so far. And that is the basis for our response. What | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
will that response be, the language already from the Israeli Government | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
tonight has been extremely strong, very incendiary, talking about | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
punishment, talking about vengence? I don't think it is right to call it | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
incendiary, you are talking about three teenagers on their way home to | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
their parents and brutally murdered in cold blood. We have had over 200 | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
missiles fired from the Gaza strip since the beginning of this year. We | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
are talking about an organisation that doesn't dream of peace, but | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
dreams of the brutal murder of Israelis. We need to respond to that | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
organisation in a language it understands. At the moment Israel is | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
threatening the eradication of Hamas, to quote one of your | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
ministers, does it not behove the Israeli Government to have a moment | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
of calm so the death of these three teenagers does not turn into a much | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
wider, much more significant conflagration, with more blood being | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
spilled? As we are sitting here the Israeli security cabinet is | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
deliberating yours correspondent described T we are aware of concerns | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
of escalation and proportionality and so on. But we have to bear in | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
mind that we are dealing with an adversary that doesn't bother itself | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
with those calculation at all. There is no symmetry. This is an | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
organisation that raises its children to praise and emulate | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
suicide bombers, which is firing missiles as we speak, and which has | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
been attempting repeatedly to kidnap and murder Israelis. So any response | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
to this would be justified in your view? As I said we are the side of | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
this equation where tragically we grapple with these issues. It would | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
be far easier if there was more clarity on the Palestinian side. | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
What is so frustrating is Abu Mazin, who presents himself as a partner | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
for peace, seems to think you can sit down being partner of peace | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
while at the same time embracing this Hamas, terrorist organisation. | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
Joining us from the West Bank is the leader of the secular Palestinian | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
national initiative party. Thank you for joining us. The reality | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
Government is entitled to retaliate are they not? No they are not. First | :11:16. | :11:24. | |
of all I think the main person responsible for the tragic that | :11:25. | :11:33. | |
happened is Mr Netherton -- Binyamin Netanyahu himself. He's responsible | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
for the tragic death of more than ten minutes so far who were killed | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
by his army, including three children. I don't think... You are | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
suggesting these young teenagers had it coming are you? Because they were | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
somewhere geographically? They should not have been in illegal | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
settlements which are considered illegal by international law and a | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
violation of international law, that is what all countries of the world | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
are saying. And Mr Binyamin Netanyahu should have protected them | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
and not tending them to these places. More than that he's now. | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
Retaliating and he wants to retaliate, without even bringing a | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
single proof that any Palestinian was responsible for their deaths. | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
There is very strange. Are you not suggesting that any settler is fair | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
game. President Netenyahu didn't kill these people himself? I don't | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
like anybody to be killed, but I'm saying no security or real peace | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
will be available either to Palestinians or Israelis, unless the | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
Israeli military occupation is ended. Unless the system of | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
apartheid, discrimination, and oppression of the Palestinian | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
people, during an occupation that has become the longest in modern | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
history, for 47 years we have been oppressed. And unless this ends, the | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
main cause of insecurity, the main cause of suffering, which is mostly | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
on the Palestinian side is this Israeli military occupation. Mr | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
Netenyahu has broken the peace process before, and undermined any | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
possibility for a two-state solution. Now he's trying to use a | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
tragic death to escalate a new war. Can you be sure that Hamas are not | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
behind these three deaths, are you sure of that? What I'm sure about is | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
that Hamas has said very clearly that they are not responsible for | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
this. No Palestinian group has declared responsibility for it. I'm | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
sure that the Israeli Government, Mr Netenyahu and the Israeli ambassador | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
in London, could not provide up to this moment any single proof that | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
any Palestinian was responsible for this. But at the end of the day, the | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
overall cause of all suffering here is the continued military occupation | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
of Palestinian territories and the lack of peace which Israel is | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
responsible for. You brokered the deal with Hamas to put together this | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
new Government, which is only weeks old. How will you be telling others | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
to respond. Hamas is already saying tonight, they are talking about | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
opening the "gates of hell" if there is retaliation from Israel, what | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
will you be saying? I would say that Hamas can be approached to accept | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
nonviolent resistance, and accept this as a form. And Hamas, in my | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
opinion can be convinced to accept a two-state solution if Israel is | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
ready to end the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
and this apartheid, illegal system. For everybody's sake this is the | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
best way forward. You know we have been conducting nonviolent, peaceful | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
resistance, and the response we get from Israel is attacks and gun shots | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
from the Israeli army which killed two very young boys, children, | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
basically, who are 15, 16 years old, just before this incident happened. | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
What I'm saying is there should be not double standard. All lives, | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
Palestinian and Israelis are precious and should be observed | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
through peace. Thank you very much. Rofl Harris | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
said the most important thing for him was not to con public. But in | :15:18. | :15:26. | |
fact his whole public persona was a fraud. He was a mildly irritating | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
children's entertainment, but a man who used that status to abuse | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
children over two decades. He was not, in the end, too famous or | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
powerful to face justice. After years of silence his victims' | :15:42. | :15:49. | |
stories were told and believed. An entertainer for 60 years. From | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
children's programmes to prime time TV. From black and white to full | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
colour. Today though Rofl Harris left court with that reputation in | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
pieces. Guilty of a series of historic sex offence, one against a | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
girl as young as seven. The victims in this case have suffered in | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
silence for many years and have only recently found the courage to come | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
forward. I would like to pay tribute to the bravery they displayed in | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
coming to court and giving evidence. That bravery and determination has | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
seen Rofl Harris brought to justice and held to account. 30 years ago | :16:32. | :16:45. | |
Harrison Harris was already a veteran of Saturday night TV. I had | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
a curious catch phrase I use at every available opportunity at that | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
stage, I would say without thinking "I never touched her your honour"! | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
The women central to the case said it was around this time she was | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
first abused, on holiday, then at his home. By the early 1980s he had | :17:07. | :17:16. | |
moved to the quiet village of Brae Berkshire, he was a family man and | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
she a close friend of his young daughter. She told the court she was | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
13 at the time, terrified and didn't feel she could say no. From behind | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
the curtain she said how the abuse continued on and off for more than a | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
decade. She said it turned her into an alcoholic. In 1997 Harris wrote | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
this letter to her father, in it the star asks for forgiveness, saying | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
they did had a relationship but it was consensual and didn't start | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
until she was 18. Her family didn't believe him, nor did the jury. It | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
was after watching the Queen's Jubilee Concert that the same woman | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
felt she was strong enough to call the police. Saying she could never | :17:56. | :18:04. | |
get away from that "bloody man". His arrest led to a wave of publicity | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
and others came forward, one groped outside a community centre in | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
Portsmouth when she was seven or eight years old. Another this | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
celebrity sports event in Cambridge when she was 16, Harris denied | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
visiting the city until this old footage was played in court. He put | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
his hand on my thigh. Then there was Tonya Lee, the only one of the | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
victims to wave her anonymity, after selling her story in Australia. She | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
was 15 when she was sexually assaulted in a pub in East London. I | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
wanted to scream but I didn't. I knew what he had done was wrong. I | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
was embarrassed as well, and then I thought, I didn't want to tell | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
anybody that he had touched me. The court heard from witnesses across | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
the world with similar stories, from Darwin, from New Zealand, from | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
Malta, one make-up lady said they had a nickname for him, "the | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
octopus". Can I say how lovely you look. You smoothie. Harris's defence | :19:04. | :19:11. | |
claimed he was just a touchy, feely sort of person, somebody who could | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
be tactile and affectionate with men and women. In court old colleagues, | :19:15. | :19:23. | |
like the director Dougie Squires stood up to say they hadn't seen | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
anything inappropriate at work or anything that had crossed the line: | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
The torture of being there for six weeks listening to some people who | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
defended him and some people accusing him, which is right or | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
wrong, and only he probably knows the truth. But the torture of it is | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
a penalty in itself. That is the humility of being there is | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
punishment in itself. What happens now, the punishment has been | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
administered, if that is the right word. This is the most high-profile | :19:59. | :20:05. | |
result yet for Operation Yewtree, the investigation set up after the | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
Jimmy Savile's scandal. There no suggestion that the two offenders | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
are connected. For years he did work closely with children and young | :20:16. | :20:17. | |
people, even fronting a film highlighting the danger of child | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
abuse. It is that sort of touching I want to talk about today, it helps | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
you to understand the sort of touching that doesn't make you feel | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
too good. Rofl Harris's wife, Alwen returned to the family home alone | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
this evening, her husband's career over and his reputation damaged | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
forever. Once again the questions will be asked. How did this happen | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
so many times? For so long? Without the authorities, his employers or | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
anyone else stopping it? With us now are the former Director of Public | :20:52. | :20:59. | |
Prosecutions Kier Starmer, who was in charge at the CPS when they made | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
the decision to prosecute Rofl Harris. And we have a representative | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
from the NSPCC. It is almost impossible to believe some of that | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
archive when you see T when you took the decision he is CPS, how | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
confident were you that the charges would stick, given his public image | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
and persona? I was confident in the decision, but his persona is very | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
important. It is very difficult for victims of sexual abuse to come | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
forward. In ordinary circumstances it is particularly difficult where | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
there is a celebrity involved, because very often victims feel they | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
are simply not going to be believed against someone such as Rofl Harris. | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
It was exactly the same with Jimmy Savile, where very few victims did | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
come forward in that case they felt they couldn't think Jimmy Savile on, | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
or that they would be believed. That is a critical part of this whole | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
case. What also about the difficulties of historic testimony, | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
I mean we saw from this court case, for some of the people giving | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
testimony they were reaching back 20, 30 years, that wasn't always | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
straight forward. It was sometimes problematic? It is, it makes the | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
cases much more difficult, but one thing very important in creating a | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
better environment for people to come forward is to bust the myths, | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
so people will come forward quickly if they have been abused. There is a | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
myth, it was very long after the event before victims felt they could | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
come forward. We have to recognise that is part of the way we respond | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
to this sort of offending. It does create difficulties, but let as bust | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
some of those myths. Operation Yewtree yielding results now for the | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
authorities, it is an unusual spasam of prosecutions and an outpouring of | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
looking back over the years. Do you think it will contribute to change | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
for victims? It has already, not only with Operation Yewtree, but we | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
have heard from the helpline service about a number of people who are not | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
only reporting historical abuse but also what is happening now in our | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
communities. I think there is a huge sea change both in public | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
confidence, with police and CPS, and also with children Children's | :23:19. | :23:27. | |
Services and being able to address these disturbing string of events | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
occurring. I think it will encourage victims to come forward if they have | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
concerns about what happened to them in the past by other people in | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
authority. What kinds of numbers are you talking about, a surge of new | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
reports coming forward? We have seen since Operation Yewtree started back | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
in October. We are seeing on occasions a doubling or trebling of | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
reports to our helpline service. There is a significant increase now | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
in people coming forward and giving information about children at risk. | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
Of course that is happening at a time when the prosecuting | :24:03. | :24:04. | |
authorities and the police are having to do more with less | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
resources, a doubling or trebling of people coming forward, can they cope | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
with it? Yes they can, and there is resources to deal with it. One of | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
the critical things that shouldn't be missed at the heart of this is | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
anonymity. Very often victims find it difficult to come forward, but | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
will come forward if they know there is another victim out there. Whilst | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
everybody understands and sympathises with an innocent person | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
who is wrongly charged with rape or some other offence, what this case | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
shows is that anonymity would have served an injustice, because some of | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
the victims would not have come forward. In fact, had there been | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
anonymity, which some people argue for, which is until conviction, your | :24:47. | :24:54. | |
headline tonight would be "it's Rofl Harris" because you wouldn't have | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
known that until tonight. This goes to the heart of the very important | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
debate about anonymity. We are still getting people coming forward and | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
giving us information about Rofl Harris as well. Even tonight? I | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
think it is really important that if we remove anonymity in some of these | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
case, and it should be judged on a case-by-case basis, it gives you a | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
greater degree of confidence for people to come forward and provide | :25:21. | :25:22. | |
valuable information for the investigation. Very briefly, do you | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
think there is a danger that with Operation Yewtree that such a huge | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
phenomenon, is it a danger that we will focus on it so much that in the | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
end we will think we have dealt with this problem and it is all in the | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
past? No, what it does is remind organisations that what you have to | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
have in place is very robust reporting procedures and also a | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
culture that allows people to speak out. There has to be a cultural | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
shift, we are in the foot hills, a huge amount to do, a step forward | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
but let not anybody think we are where we need to be on this. | :25:59. | :26:06. | |
If it were a Hollywood blockbuster you wouldn't believe it, a member of | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
a biker gang becomes a Muslim and makes friends with some of the | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
biggest extremist, then he last has a change of heart, and gets in touch | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
with Security Services and infiltrates Al-Qaeda. It is a true | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
story, but it doesn't have a happy ending. | :26:26. | :26:38. | |
This is Morton Storm in 2005, the Danish extremist protesting in | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
London. This is his image eight years later, his image pinned on the | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
wall, extremists want to kill him for betraying Al-Qaeda. If I went to | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
sleep and talked in my sleep I would have been exposed and ended up being | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
crucified. His account of seven years under cover for western | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
intelligence inside Al-Qaeda makes terrifying reading. He says Danish | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
intelligence, MI5, MI 6 and the CIA were all happy to use his contacts | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
for terrorists at the highest level. Especially in Yemen where he was a | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
trusted contact of this man, once considered one of the most dangerous | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
terrorists in the world. We have people from Mexico, America, | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
Britain, when he came out of prison, that is why we became friends. In | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
his first UK TV interview he started by telling me about his early | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
troubled childhood in Denmarks, spells in prison, gangs and Islam. | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
There was violence and conflict in your life, talk to me about that? I | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
could see like many kids neglected by parents. I was kicked out of five | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
schools when I was young. I couldn't sit still. But I went into this | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
library and picked up the biography of the Prophet Mohammed and read the | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
whole book in one day, that is something I never did before. It | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
totally caught me and I was so convinced from the moment I was such | :28:14. | :28:21. | |
a different person when I entered the library and when I left. While | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
praying at Regent's Park in London, met a man who offered him help to | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
travel to Yemen and study a fundamentalist version of Islam. I | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
returned from Yemen with more hatred in me. You thought you were the | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
chosen one and everyone else was wrong. In Luton and London he became | :28:40. | :28:47. | |
a supporter of Omar Bakri Mohammed, excluded from London but never | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
convicted. He started attending his meetings, fired up about injustices | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
in the world, he saw it his duty to protect Muslim lands, Jihad. He's | :29:00. | :29:07. | |
two tongued, and two faced, I was shocked when I later discovered how | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
he had this split permity. He would have the public face but privately | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
would he say that Jihad was permissible inside the UK? Yes he | :29:17. | :29:25. | |
did. His fatwahs have made young people commit terrorism within | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
Europe and outside Europe. In 2006 he hoped to travel to Somalia to | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
help fight for an Islamic state. When he couldn't go it undermined | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
his faith that his Jihad was ordained by God. He had a crisis of | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
faith. I said goodbye to my family and didn't expect to come back. You | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
thought this was your religious calling? That was it, it was my | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
call. To fight Jihad and you were stopped. Absolutely. He decided to | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
renounce Islam, privately, and use his contacts to work in the | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
intelligence world. That is quite a radical thing to do. But I think my | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
life has always been radical. I always lived in the extremes of life | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
from eight years old, I knew I could be different and I knew the only | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
people could be close to people like that is people like me. His contact | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
list was priceless, he got to know the British shoe bomber Richard | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
Reid, and the 9/11 accomplice. The man who recently became Britain's | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
first suicide bomber in Syria, and the Yemeni-based American cleric. | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
Dubbed the Bin Laden of the internet. He played key roles in the | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
attack at the military base and two plots designed to bring down | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
passenger planes. His extremist lectures and bomb-making | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
instructions posted on-line were proving popular with Jihadis | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
on-line. Morton was his friend and willing to help with the west. He | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
offered to find him an English-speaking wife. I just want | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
to tell you that right now I feel nervous... This is the woman he | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
found and this is the private encrypted video she sent to him. She | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
travelled to Yemen and married him, who was delighted. Her suitcase was | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
bugged so he could be traced, arriving in Yemen she was told to | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
leave all her luggage behind, so the American plan failed. The Americans | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
were furious and angry, we did fall out. The methodology of working with | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
this. And they didn't want to talk to me for six months. He was skilled | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
by a drone strike in 20 11 and though the suitcase plan fails, | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
Storm says it was his other work that traced him and the CIA owe him | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
a big success fee they promised. Do you think the Americans still owe | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
you $5 million. Yes of course they do. Why? Because I have done a lot | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
of work for them, I carried out the mission that led them to the world's | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
most wanted terrorist. Storm claims he even secretly recorded his CIA | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
handler in an effort for recognition. | :32:31. | :32:43. | |
Six months after Orlaki was killed, Storm was back under cover, trying | :32:44. | :32:51. | |
to find other terrorists linked to Al-Qaeda. This time he says the CIA | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
was willing to see him die, and he was warned off by another agent. I'm | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
working for them but they are planning to kill you once the whole | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
world will think you were a terrorist. We will west actually | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
believe we are the God one, once we discover the other side of it, you | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
get so deeply disappointed. The CIA declined to comment. We can't | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
independently verify Storm's story, but there is supporting material. He | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
says he's now in hiding in fear for his life. | :33:27. | :33:35. | |
The size of your check book from -- chequebooks from your backers | :33:36. | :33:37. | |
matters in politics. The parties need to be sure they have a supply | :33:38. | :33:46. | |
of readyies. Labour can be confident of support from Unite, who announced | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
its plans to help pay Labour's way today. But are they really convinced | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
Ed Miliband is getting everything right? Not quite. I spoke to its | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
leader a little earlier and asked what had changed to promted to's | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
generosity. There has been some really interesting debates taking | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
place in the party. John Cruddas and Anglia Eagle have been responsible | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
for gathering thoughts from thousand of Labour Party memories, including | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
trade unions. I think what's beginning to emerge is the | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
likelihood of a positive, cohesive programme that offers hope to the | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
British electorate. Today, your workers were voting to strike over | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
pay. At the same time, Ed Balls was on a platform talking about | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
restraining spending and he was talking about pulling down taxes for | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
business and you know the Labour leadership is committed to | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
restraining public pay. Ed Balls has said time and again it is no way we | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
should be arguing for higher pay. How do those things square? The | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
reality is we have always disagreed with Ed Balls about the question of | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
public sector pay. Whilst leaders do have to have economic credibility, | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
we understand that, it is about a balance and about making sure you | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
have credibility with workers. Our members in have had 4,000 in real | :35:19. | :35:30. | |
wages reduced and people can't put up with that any longer. So the | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
argument is that we have to persuade both Eds, if you like that there is | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
an alternative to the constant theme about restraint, restraint, | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
restraint. If you were a member of your union | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
who voted to strike today over pay being frozen or cut in some places, | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
and you saw you promising to write cheques for millions of their money | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
for a Labour leadership who won't increase their pay. Wouldn't you be | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
confused about that I? That is why Ed has to demonstrate with key here | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
issive package what new deal he will present to working people. He hasn't | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
done that? Of course he hasn't, that is the process currently taking | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
place, and we are urging them to do precisely that. You are right, I'm | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
not going to my members and ask them to start voting for a political | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
party that they don't see any different from this current | :36:27. | :36:34. | |
disastrous Conservative Government we had. I'm confident we will see | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
the programme that delivers and gives us hope. You don't sound that | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
confident, only ten months tomorrow until the elections? Ten months is a | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
long, long time in politics. Is sounds like you have -- it sounds | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
like you have had assurances from the Labour leaderships? I have had | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
no private assurances or private meetings. I'm confident about the | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
debate taking place in the policy forums. You have promised a blank | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
cheque with your members' money to a party you have just admitted has not | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
yet even convinced you they are on the members' side? There is no blank | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
cheque, the way we operate in my union, contrary to the media. Is our | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
lay member executive will term what donations we give. Do you really | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
feel the leadership is listening top radical ideas. Some -- to radicaled | :37:31. | :37:38. | |
ideas -- radical ideas. Some think that they just get left. And there | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
is a cynical idea that it is all about the press and local groups. I | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
can understand the frustration, he and Angela Eagle are doing fantastic | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
job. I see many of the policies that Ed has talked about, a million new | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
homes, given hope of apprenticeships to our young people without jobs. | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
Zero hour contracts being banned and increasing the minimum wage, there | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
is a whole litany of policy, regional investment banks to invest | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
in local communities. There is a whole litany ideas that need to be | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
knitted together in a programme. And John Cruddas has been involved in | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
that and I'm confident there is something we can come away with and | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
take into the election. We are a long way away from the general | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
election. You will see massive swings in public opinion over the | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
next 6-9 months. When did you last have a proper | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
conversation, yes, I'm talking to you, with your whatsapp? On your | :38:44. | :38:52. | |
phone and tweak David Kelly on there. | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
Experts say it is killing the art of discourse, many of us prefer to edit | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
our thoughts in a text, rather than engage on the unpredictable | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
face-to-face discussion. Enthusiasts for this endangered activity are | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
hitting back, with etiquette classes and conversations between strangers. | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
This is the unspeakable Steven Smith. | :39:17. | :39:32. | |
Has there ever been so much chatter in human history. But is anybody | :39:33. | :39:44. | |
actually saying anything? How has your day been, good? Would a moment | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
of intimacy and warmth be too much to ask for? Did you see that | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
incident the other day when that Suarez bit that geezer. Yeah, | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
whatever, yeah? That was a liberty wasn't it, blimey. I don't know | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
about you but I'm desperate to find meaning and contact in our howlingly | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
lonely digital world. I picked that Jeremy Paxman up the other day, I | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
would like to bite him on the shoulder! You have come a long way. | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
Only a short cab ride, but worth it to talk to you and you. | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
Face-to-face, just the two of us, with no electronic media or apps | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
coming between us. It is all too rare these days. | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
Very interesting, carry on. Noel Coward on seeing him in the role, | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
he's just a bit too plummy for my taste. As host of Radio 4's Just A | :40:42. | :40:51. | |
Minute, Nicholas Parsons has a front row seat for chat. But he for one | :40:52. | :41:03. | |
isn't wedded to his mobile. And as for Dr Dre-style headphones, won't | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
get him started. You look impeccable but maybe a pair of Di Canios when | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
you are next at Lords? Ridiculous idea, you are creating good | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
conversation, that is what this is about. I think you are, I'm trying | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
to return the ball that's all? I'm responding to what you are saying | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
because you said this programme would be about conversation. This is | :41:29. | :41:36. | |
what it is, you SPEEBLG to somebody and stimulate their cerebral parts | :41:37. | :41:44. | |
and come back with something and you respond. A lot of that is dying out | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
because Millennium Dome don't do it enough. -- because people don't do | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
it enough. Do you like conversation, researchers have been finding out | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
what is going on with people who prefer to text and talk, when they | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
can get a word out of them at all, of course? Not all new technology | :42:02. | :42:10. | |
imhi bits conversation. When I have been doing my work and I ask people | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
what is happening with conversation, they tell me that I tell you what is | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
wrong, it takes place in real time and you can't control what you are | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
going to say. What they mean by that is they would rather have control | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
and be able to do their little side of the conversation when they, you | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
know, when they are relaxed and they can edit. And also that they sort of | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
want to broadcast their little side of the conversation. | :42:42. | :42:53. | |
But all is not lost. Etiquette expert Diana is reviving the art of | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
conversation, one afternoon tea at a time. Holding classes over | :42:58. | :43:05. | |
sandwiches with their crusts cut of Sex for the bedroom, and religion | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
that can be quite inflammatory, and most people don't want to know about | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
the operations of our illnesses. That is helpful, what about mobile | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
phones. They should always be off and out of sight during meals, | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
meetings and parties. The person you are with is the person who is the | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
most important. None of us are indispensable. And very few of us | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
have to answer that text. And texting and talking is so rude, it | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
is like me having conversation with you and completely different with | :43:38. | :43:47. | |
you and it's like I'm ignore norring you. -- ignoring you. We are still | :43:48. | :43:56. | |
animal, the magnetism, and the aura. If they are not concentrating on | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
each other we are not giving that aura of magnetisim. We are wasting a | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
huge opportunity of getting to know each other bear. There is no display | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
in front of it, that is because the display is your smartphone. It is | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
probably going too far to blame the loss of conversation on Click, the | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
tech-fest. What have they to say about it? In speech please not 140. | :44:23. | :44:33. | |
Technologies is changing conversation, if that is the geeks' | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
fault then guilty as charged. Things move on. Continue living your life | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
in a way that is comfortable for you. I'm not a fan of trying to | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
force anyone into the next age. I'm conscious I will be a particular in | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
the mud that doesn't like the way things are going either. Stick with | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
what you are happy with and gradually things will change. Some | :44:56. | :45:02. | |
people will become just so irritaly convenient that you will succumb to | :45:03. | :45:12. | |
it. Do you know this person? I do. Do you know how? I don't know how. | :45:13. | :45:20. | |
Speed dating, nothing so prosaic, they have the talking habit here in | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
Oxford, strangers strike up conversations with one another from | :45:25. | :45:34. | |
a menu of topics. What have you chosen to discuss, something on the | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
menu? The things we are discussing at the moment, is it inevitable that | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
new ideas should meet with resist sense. Back-Jackie was -- Jackie was | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
saying that you force the ideas to prove themselves in that way. I love | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
meeting somebody I met minutes ago and getting a sense from here about | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
everything, from her personal background to her view of on | :46:03. | :46:11. | |
politics. And society. How The Don who oversees the sessions said we | :46:12. | :46:19. | |
need the "what conversation". It something very different from the | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
old one. The old one was to pass the time, to show respect, to do what | :46:24. | :46:30. | |
etiquette demanded, the new conversation has a different | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
purpose, it is to discover who other people are. Do we really want to do | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
that? You can't live in the world without knowing who other people | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
are. This concealment makes interaction impossible. Our goal now | :46:44. | :46:50. | |
is to discover who inhabits the world, individually, one by one. Do | :46:51. | :46:58. | |
you know what if texting and apps are not to overwhelm us, then maybe | :46:59. | :47:08. | |
this conversation may be the last blow for speech. Really? That is | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
interesting. ! Civilised conversation tomorrow night. Until | :47:15. | :47:16. | |
then good night. Plenty more dry, sunny weather to | :47:17. | :47:39. | |
come over the next few days, temperatures above average. Looking | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
at the forecast through the day on | :47:43. | :47:44. |