Browse content similar to 30/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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killing continues unabated in the Middle East tonight. Over 13 more | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
Palestinians have died in Gaza and three Israeli soldiers have lost | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
their lives. As shells hit a market and a UN school in Gaza, the US said | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
it was extremely concerned about the safety of Palestinian civilians. It | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
has pressed again for a ceasefire. Tonight we look at the crumbling | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
borders of countries across the Middle East. How much more chaos can | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
the region withstand before whole states such as Syria and Iraq | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
fracture completely. We will hear live from Tel Aviv and Dubai, and | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
voices from Lebanon and Egypt are here in our London studio. As | :00:43. | :00:50. | |
ununeasy truce leaves more dead on both sides in Gaza, we are in Israel | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
hearing from those living in the midst of war. How can I make my | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
children, grandchildren living here, how can I allow them, give them a | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
safe life? If I don't do what they are doing now in Gaza. | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
And Twitter as instrument of warfare, ISIS is ruthless leaks | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
exploiting the power of social media to terrorise its enemies. We report | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
on the propaganda and ideas but social media being used to | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
increasingly to spread fear. Now the great hope of the Arab | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
Spring that began more than three years ago was that democracy and | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
stability would break out all over the Middle East. It didn't happen. | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
Instead there has been turmoil, bloodshed and atrocities on a | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
terrifying scale. With an elected leader turfed out in Egypt, Libya | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
apparently disintegrating and a new and extraordinary bloody Jihadist | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
group, ISIS capturing swathes of Iraq and Syria. In this mess old | :02:00. | :02:09. | |
friendships and emnities are being replaced. Rereport tonight on where | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
the state boundaries of the new Middle East will be drawn, if, that | :02:15. | :02:32. | |
is, this chaos ever ends. The Middle East is a house designed | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
by Europeans but sat on the foundations of the ottoman empire. | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
Its Monarchies and ministries aped those of Europe, and for several | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
decades it provided stability, now the region is in crisis. It is the | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
chaos caused by a new mutation of political Islam that is the first | :02:56. | :03:13. | |
point in understanding this. Arab regimes across the region have | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
failed, economically, politically, on the security front, they have | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
failed to form a regional structure, any form of permanent stability. | :03:24. | :03:31. | |
Absent some form of channel where the Arab public can get involved in | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
governance, Islamism has been the only gateway. Are the old | :03:37. | :03:45. | |
ideologyists of ba'athist and others have failed and will a caliphate | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
sweep before it. We know this new wave of Islamist politics is a | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
threat to elites and states across the region. | :03:56. | :04:08. | |
There is another thing that's become clear too, that trying to drop | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
another western construct, liberal democracy into the current cauldron | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
of the Middle East simply isn't going to work. For now, at least, | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
the called Arab Spring is going nowhere. In some placeses, like | :04:24. | :04:32. | |
Iraq, it has been trumped by the politics of identity. While the old | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
authoritarian ottoman model, ruled by the Pasha or general, has shown | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
its resilience in Egypt and Algeria. Where the old strong men are swept | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
away, Gadaffi or Saddam, fragmentation has followed. That | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
means old borders coming into question too. | :04:52. | :05:04. | |
The most obvious example has been the disappearing bordered between | :05:05. | :05:15. | |
Iraq by ISIS, it is a new Sunni state, the Kurds have gotten in on | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
the act pushing forward their quest for statehood, Libya is in danger of | :05:20. | :05:28. | |
fragmentation with the east, and the ancient lines Cyrenaica. Don't | :05:29. | :05:39. | |
forget that even in Iraq or Libya, there are still leaders who aspire | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
to control of the whole, not just some rump statelet. You find a | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
tenacious commitment to the state as the unit of primary identity. Now | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
there are a lot of other identities going on, religious, ethnic as well, | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
but the state survives, and the state survives as the unit of | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
primary identity across the whole of the region. And don't forget that | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
other hangover of British rule, Israel. There has been a 100 year | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
argument about its existence and borders. And that times like now | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
that conflict can inflame the whole region. But new forces are coming | :06:21. | :06:37. | |
into play. New alliances in fact emerging in the Middle East, and | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
where as outsiders are happy to sell weapons to these power brokers, | :06:42. | :06:51. | |
regional players are key. So Iran has made itself the guardian of the | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
Shia, forging a power block with Hezbollah in Lebanon, President | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
Assad's regime in Syria and increasingly the rump state of Iraq. | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
Saudi Arabia champions the Sunni Arabs, pouring resources into the | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
Syrian opposition, and its cache has made a client of Egypt too. The | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
Saudis are not necessarily fighting the Iranians, based on religious | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
foundations. In part this is a traditional conflict between two | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
very important regional powers which have a very significant influence, | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
fighting over controlling the Middle East at a time when the US is | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
disengaging. But this isn't just a simple binary soweddy Iranian | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
contest. Saudi Arabia's will has been flouted by Qatar, also Sunni, | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
backing Islamists in Egypt and Gaza. Israel too makes its own rules. | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
Some, dare I mention Tony Blair, say the west must take sides and ally | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
with the Saudi block. The more general western attitude is to steer | :07:58. | :08:14. | |
well clear. Should we in the west be worried? Yes and deeply. Because | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
there is turmoil in the Middle East and it is likely to stay that way | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
for the foreseeable future. And whether or not we want to get | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
involved we will be affected. This will come back to bite you. If you | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
think of the huge trouble of turning, of the United States and | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
the international community turning its back on Afghanistan, leading to | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
the birth of Al-Qaeda and a transnational Jihadi movement, it | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
took days for a young Jihadi tourist to move across, it days hours to go | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
across the border and get into Syria. Clearly this problem will | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
come back and bite Europe especially hard, and also the United States. | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
Growing chaos in Libya or Iraq could raise energy prices and hit economic | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
recovery. Refugees from Syria or Libya flee to the EU, airspace is | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
becoming unsafe for the big chunks of the region. As for the ungoverned | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
space that is also opening up in several countries, it provides a | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
potential home for piracy, extremism and perhaps even the next 9/11. So | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
why are the boundaries that have been relatively firm for the best | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
part of a century now being redrawn. Is there any hope of a return to a | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
more peaceful settled region, what does it mean here for us in the | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
west. With me to discuss this are my guest, the cofounder of the Shark | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
Forum, and former Director General of Al-Jazeera, the television | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
station, and we have the longest continuously serving American | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
official in Iraq, and from Tel Aviv we have the former director of | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
Israel's Intelligence Service, Mosad. In the studio here with me is | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
a professor from the London School of Economics and Egyptian activists | :10:10. | :10:11. | |
and author. Good evening to you all. If I could | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
start by asking you do you believe that the Middle East is entering | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
perhaps its most unstable and dangerous phase for many decades? | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
Actually I do believe that, and I do believe maybe this is the phase of | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
real transformation, maybe this is the most difficult time that the | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
Middle East is going through since 1917, since the First World War when | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
the boundaries and the borders of the so called Middle East were | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
drawn. I think right now there are trends that are combined together | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
that might change and reshape the region. One of them is the rise of | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
generals and military versus the decline of politics. The other one | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
is the fact that the regional system is collapsing and the boundaries and | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
the borders amongst countries in the region are becoming more irrelevant | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
than ever. The third is the delegitimisation of the state, | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
because the state is not seen as an actor that can represent the hopes | :11:20. | :11:30. | |
and dreams of the nation. And the fact that democracy doesn't exist | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
any more. Three years ago we tellrated Tahrir Square, and thought | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
we were going into a new values-centered system that would | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
restructure the Middle East on democracy, but democracy has been | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
murdered in Egypt and across the region, and that is to the silence | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
of the International Society and the collaboration of regional powers, I | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
think we are going through this phase where ISIS has become an actor | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
and more and more people are moving towards an alternative out of this | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
and feeling betrayal. This sounds like total disaster. Is this | :12:09. | :12:18. | |
unstoppable chaos? It is indeed a disaster generally speaking. The | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
fact is the region is more unstable now than it has been in a century, I | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
agree on that front. These historic trends are not easily predictable. | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
It is hard to say whether it is unstoppable or not. Certainly the | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
forces of history are moving very quickly and we all have to be very | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
careful, particularly in the west to preserve our strategic alliances and | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
be on guard for strategic foes like Al-Qaeda, ISIS and other radical | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
Islamist groups which are clearly gaining momentum across the region. | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
If we could move on to this question of borders and whether the map is | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
being redrawn. Now there are those who simply argue that the existing | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
borders were an imposition of colonial powers like Britain, and | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
that therefore they were always at some point going to collapse, | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
because they don't reflect the cultural, racial economic realities, | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
is that your view, Professor, that what we are seeing is inevitable? | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
The modern Middle East was invented by the colonial powers. The modern | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
state system is not and was not economically socially viable. It is | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
not viable, period. We simplify it great deal if we say it is a matter | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
of boundaries. Even though the modern state system was seen as I | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
will imate it has taken deep root since the 1920s. The crisis is | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
bigger, what we are witnessing in the Middle East now is a | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
revolutionary moment. A moment that really is comparable to the great | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
revolutionary moments in history, whether you are talking about the | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
French Revolution or the Russian revolutions. What we are witnessing | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
unfolding before our eyes is fierce social and political struggles, | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
bottom-up politics, the system has been turned upside down, you have | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
Civil War, ideolgical wars, the old system is resisting, the counter | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
revolutionary forces in the region, a new system is not born yet. It | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
would be a mistake to say this is the end of the story. It will take | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
many years for the dust to settle on the battlefield in many countries in | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
the region. You were a great supporter, indeed activist in the | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
Arab Spring, but given the chaos we are now seeing and atrocities on a | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
really terrifying scale, do you think that actually what we saw then | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
has turned out to be a rather dangerous and bad thing? No, I | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
don't, not at all. I would say that I was an activist on behalf of the | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
Egyptian revolution, I think the Arab Spring as a term is very | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
problematic. Even in Egypt we have had democracy over, well an elected | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
President thrown out. It hasn't worked has it? It hasn't worked so | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
far. I think that the example of Dr Morsi being dethroned is | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
problematic, because it was certainly done in the wrong way. But | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
it was actually reflective of the will of the people. The people will | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
probably live to regret it, but we were in the process of a revolution. | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
I think it is really strange how people talk about historic processes | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
taking place in the region, as though they were talking about | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
natural phenomena. While in fact there are actors making things | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
happen, what is happening in Gaza now is from Israel, it is the will | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
of the people, it is not an inevitable historic process, it is | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
very much a part of what is destablising the region and making | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
life difficult. We have to remember that the Islamist movements all | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
started as protest movement, all started as dissident movements | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
against autocratic, dictatorial regimes, and then of course they | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
take the path that they take and in the long absence of victory, I think | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
also Iraq. Again talking about an historic process in Iraq and how it | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
is breaking up and talking about racial ethnic religious divide, | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
let's remember what the United States there. Let's just remember | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
that this entire region, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
was all a unit that worked and that worked for hundreds and hundreds of | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
years with this entire... We are where we are now and we have to move | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
on to the issue of shifting alliances. And if I could talk to, | :16:45. | :16:53. | |
it is pretty widely recognised that what ISIS is doing in fracturing | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
Iraq, fracturing Syria, committing terrible atrocities is pretty | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
appalling. Was the west simply mistaken in turning against | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
President Assad in Syria? Can you hear me? I think that the west, I | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
said I think that the west miscalculated on Syria. Like almost | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
everybody else miscalculated on Syria. I don't think that the Assad | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
regime would have survived today without the support of three outside | :17:34. | :17:41. | |
elements, one is Hezbollah from Lebanon, who are fighting on Syrian | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
soil and are carrying much of the brunt of the battle. The other is | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
Iran, which also has boots on the ground today, and the third is | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
Russia which is supplying the Assad regime with the necessary weaponry | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
in order to maintain its supremacy in the battlefield. And that, I | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
think, is something which we have to take into account today, no less | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
than what you have mentioned up until now. We have a situation in | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
the Middle East where on the one hand we had known state actors, like | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
Hamas and the Hezbollah, and we have other non-state actors which are | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
becoming semi-independent, like the Kurdish region in northern Iraq. So | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
the situation is varied in the Middle East. Many things are | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
happening simultaneously. It would be wrong to lump everything | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
together. If I could just ask you, do you think we have to in a sense | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
simply accept a sort of new caliphate is being created by ISIS | :18:47. | :18:54. | |
and accommodate it? I think it is a something that has risen out. Sorry | :18:55. | :19:01. | |
go on? I think this is a phenomena that has risen out of this kind of | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
chaos and despair, and the feeling of lack of hope in the future and | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
the feeling that the channels of real change and reform have been | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
blocked and the feeling of humiliation. Actually it is not only | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
ISIS and the caliphate, it is what is happening in Gaza that is going | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
to even radicalise the Arab world further, and maybe accumulate all | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
that kind of anger and feeling of humiliation and direct it towards a | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
cause that resides in the hearts of the Arabs and Muslims and unify | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
them. So what I see right now in Gaza is actually what might become | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
the beginning of a new trend in the region where all these kinds of | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
problems might be directed towards the cause which we call the cause of | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
Palestine, the Israelis at the moment are committing maybe suicide | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
in provoking a nation that is going through transformation and the | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
Israelis who are now bombarding our images, our TV screens, our mobile | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
phones with images of civilians that have been killed, I think this is | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
going to be even much worse than whatever we have experienced in Iraq | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
and any other place. We will come back to that in a second. Before we | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
move on to the issue of the threat to all of us. I have one further | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
question on this issue which is to you Mr Kadaire, America appears to | :20:19. | :20:26. | |
have shown itself utterly powerless, John Kerry's attempts to broker | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
peace over Palestine have failed miserably, what should America be | :20:31. | :20:38. | |
doing in this situation? Indeed we have noticed a remarkable series of | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
American foreign policies over the last 15 years or so, obviously | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
President George W Bush was an ultra activist and now President Obama is | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
essentially an isolationist, essentially withdrawing from most | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
parts of the Middle East in favour of what is essentially an | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
isolationist policy. I think it is critical for the United States and | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
for Washington to actively reengage with the region, with all of our | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
regional allies, the Israelis, the gulf Arab countries, the Egyptians, | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
the Turk, in Baghdad and in Erbil, because what is clearly evident over | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
the past several years that with the American vacuum that's been left | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
under the Obama registration in the region -- administration in the | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
region. World powers and regional powers trying to fill the vacuum. In | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
Iraq there is a proxy war being waged between Iran, some of the gulf | :21:35. | :21:42. | |
Arab countries or individuals, for example Turkey, the same thing is | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
occurring in Syria. As was said there is a proxy war being waged | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
again between some gulf money and clearly the Russians, Hezbollah and | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
the Iranian Revolutionary Guards are involved. So it is a very unstable | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
situation and one thing I can continue to hear from frankly all of | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
our regional allies, our historic allies, they feel that the Obama | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
administration has disengaged and many regional leaders are counting | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
down the days for Obama to leave office hopeful that a future | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
American President will reengage in the region and support its allies | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
and go on the offensive against historic foes like the Iranian | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
Revolutionary Guards or Al-Qaeda. I have to move us on to the issue of | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
the general threat, both within the region and to the rest of the world. | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
I would therefore like to pick up with you professor, do you agree | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
with what was said that broadly what we are seeing in the Palestinian | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
territories has the potential to spark a really devastating wider | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
Middle East configuration? It really does. I mean one point we must make | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
very clear is that the Palestinian tragedy resonates deeply, not just | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
in the imagination of the Palestinians, in the imagination of | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
Arabs and Muslims and worldwide. What is happening with Israel's | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
savage attack in Gaza has already made Hamas a popular movement in the | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
eyes of millions of Palestinians. That is a major shift in Palestinian | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
public opinion, it is seen as a symbol of defiance, resisting | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
Israel's massive military machine, resisting Israel's occupation of | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
Palestinian lands. In many ways we are witnessing the making, not only | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
of a third Intifada, but a wider regional conflict as a result of the | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
massacres and slaughters in Gaza. Where do you see this going in terms | :23:36. | :23:44. | |
of the impact on the west? Well it depends what attitudes the west has, | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
I suppose, the west has a huge role and a huge responsibility and it has | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
been engaged, we have had the quartet, we have had Tony Blair | :23:56. | :23:57. | |
flying in and out of the region quartet, we have had Tony Blair | :23:58. | :24:08. | |
like that. The thoughts are that there should be no intervention? | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
Unless they would like to put a no flight zone and military embargo on | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
Israel that would be really useful. There is a strong call for that from | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
all sectors of civil society now. If I could ask for a second, what do | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
you think the terrorist threat might be from all of this outside of the | :24:26. | :24:35. | |
region? Allow me just a minute to comment and to reply to some of the | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
comments which have just been made because I think it is only fair to | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
allow me to say something about some of the statements just made. First | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
of all I would like to make it clear that the Hamas which controls Gaza | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
is a terrorist organisation. It is not an organisation which has been | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
pronounced terrorist just by Israel, it has been were you nounsed by the | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
-- pronounced by the Government of Egypt which you know has a border | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
with Gaza. It has been pronounced a terrorist organisation not only by | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
the United States of America but many states in Europe. Secondly | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
Hamas are using method which is are supported amongst others by Iran | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
today, just as Iran is active in Syria. So I don't think that this is | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
simply a question of the Hamas being the mouth piece of the Palestinian | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
movement. I'm sure President Abbas of the Palestinian Authority would | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
not take this line of thinking and neither do I. I think, therefore, | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
that we should not discuss the Palestinian issue in this manner as | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
an adjunct to all the other problems. If we want to focus on the | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
general problems in the region that is fine. If you want to turn to the | :25:57. | :26:04. | |
other issues I'm willing to discuss it in detail. You have to discuss | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
whatever it is you want to discuss. But make sure we know what we are | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
talking about. We have to move on at this stage. I really just want to | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
ask whether at this particular juncture you see any hope for | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
stability returning to the region? Absolutely i think we are going | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
through a phase in our history whereby we are trying to find some | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
kind of consensus, political consensus. You should remember that | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
this region has been deprived from having this kind of dynamics for | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
decades. We have been ruled by authoritarian regime, we have been | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
ruled by wrong system, by legitimised states that have never | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
lived up to the hopes of the public. Right now we find we have that | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
space, there are many issues to be settled, the issues of identity and | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
sectarianism, the issues of democracy and the issues of | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
Palestine, I emphasise it is at the heart of the change. I cannot talk | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
about a new Middle East without speaking about the location of | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
Palestine in it. It will go on for some time this debate. Thank you | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
very much to all of you, we have used up our allotted time, which | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
doesn't surprise me it was fascinating, thank you very much. | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
Today over 100 Palestinians and three Israelis died in the on going | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
fighting in Gaza. The biggest outrage of the day was an attack | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
before dawn on Gaza school where hundreds of Palestinians, displaced | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
by the violence, had sought refuge. 16 people died and over 100 were | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
injured as they slept in what they thought would be a safe haven. We | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
can talk now to our correspondent who is in Jerusalem, Tim, what's | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
been the international reaction to this incident? Well the White House | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
tonight has strongly condemned the attack on the school. Although it | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
has also condemned people who are hiding weapons in UN facilities. The | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
UN itself has described the attack as reprehensible and said it warned | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
the Israeli military authorities 17 times about the location of the | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
school in the refuge camp. Israel, for its side says it is | :28:12. | :28:20. | |
investigating, although it says initial indications show there was | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
in coming Palestinian fire from the school. Tonight a statement from the | :28:24. | :28:25. | |
Government saying that the operation in Gaza will continue as long as is | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
necessary to destroy what it calls all terrorists infrastructure. I | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
have spent the day at an Israeli village right on the border with | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
Gaza to find out why the public here still so strongly backs their | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
Government in that aim. On the edge of warzone, they are trying to bring | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
in the harvest as normal. Israeli farmer grows her tomatoes yards from | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
the border fence. She can hear the boom of Israeli missiles falling on | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
the other side. There are regular in coming shells from Hamas in Gaza, | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
already one of the Thai workers she employs has been killed. It is | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
definitely dangerous. I don't have a safe place to run to, I know that | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
all I have to do is lie here on the ground and with my face down and | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
cover my head with my hands. I'm afraid. She and her husband are | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
sticking it out here, along with two volunteer workers from the north of | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
Israel. Though half her village has fled. She has long been a peace | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
activist, trying to build connections between Israelis and | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
Gazans. But now, particularly since the discovery of Hamas tunnels | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
leading to the village, she reluctantly supports her country's | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
operation in Gaza. When I say violence begets violence, they think | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
it is just a saying, but it is so true. Because it brings up hatred, | :29:52. | :29:59. | |
it brings out the worst in people. But how can I make my childrens my | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
grandchildren living here, how can I allow them, give them a safe life if | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
I don't do what they are doing now in Gaza. Across the border it has | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
been another day of death and destruction for Gazans, but the vast | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
majority of Israelis think the operation is justified. The Prime | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, has told people to prepare for a long | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
operation in Gaza, and for now public opinion here is | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
overwhelmingly behind him. The questions from the point of view of | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
Israelis are how long it will actually take to completely destroy | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
Hamas's military capability and whether the problem of das STAE, as | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
they see it, can ever be solved by military means alone. Israel | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
unilaterally withdrew forces from Gaza in 2005, that subsequently | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
allowed Hamas to build up its stockpiles of weapons. The man who | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
was then national security adviser believes Israeli forces must now | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
destroy those stockpiles for good. We are not that concerned about the | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
possible high-risk as some people suggest. It is not that is what we | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
want. But as long as Hamas resist and reject any idea of a ceasefire, | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
and we are left with only two military option, either to stay | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
where we are or to try to move forward in order to gain more | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
military achievement, I believe the latter is more visible. But day | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
after day it is Palestinian civilians who are being killed, as | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
well as military targets destroyed. Today at least 17 died in an Israeli | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
strike near a market. Earlier 15 lost their lives when a UN school | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
was hit. Israel says its forces were responding to mortar fire from the | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
school. The UN says it had warned that civilians were sheltering | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
there. After a strike yesterday on Gaza's only power plant Israel has | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
been accused by some human rights organisations of deliberately | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
targeting civilian infrastructure. Critics say that is the doctrine, a | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
reference to Israel's attacks on the stronghold of Hezbollah militants in | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
Beirut in the Lebanon war of 2006. Israeli leaders say its forces | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
always try to avoid civilian casualties, that was easier in | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
Beirut than Gaza. In southern Beirut Hezbollah concentrated the vast | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
majority of its leadership in a few small streets, where we could really | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
target them and exact a very dear price on Hezbollah leadership. In | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
Gaza the situation is different. Hamas leadership and terrorists are | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
dispersed both above ground and underground in residential | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
compounds, in schools and clinics and so on, therefore we cannot | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
concentrate the same fire power and achieve the same outcome. By | :32:54. | :32:55. | |
definition in such a crowded area achieve the same outcome. By | :32:56. | :33:04. | |
will be collateral damage. As that collateral damage mounts and | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
international pressure grows for ceasefire, some say there will have | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
to be a political deal to disarm Hamas, removing weapons in return | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
for massive investment in Gaza. I think there is a chance to achieve | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
something that can endorse, it could surprisingly be from Hamas on one | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
hand, if not Hamas, those who support Hamas, Qatar, Turkey and | :33:30. | :33:36. | |
others. I will not exclude any possibility of huge investment of | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
money in order to rebuild Gaza to build the infrastructure and to | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
bring some better hope, better future for the people of Gaza. The | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
only Israeli demand as part of this package deal is that Gaza will be | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
demilitarised as far as heavy weapons are concerned. And there has | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
been a lot of fighting where we can see? | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
Back on the border Roni knows any such deal is a long way off. She too | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
thinks in the end only talking will bring a solution in Gaza. They are | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
leading us on, Hamas. They are bringing us to this, to the point we | :34:17. | :34:25. | |
are at at the moment, I will never forgive them for that. But on the | :34:26. | :34:35. | |
other hand I think that unless we do talk to them and understand where | :34:36. | :34:43. | |
they are coming from we're not going to OK get any where. A little | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
earlier I spoke to the Israeli Government spokesman. I started by | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
asking him why Israel's bombardment of Gaza is killing so many innocent | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
civilians? First of all there is a war going on between us and Hamas. | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
And in every conflict unfortunately you have a situation where innocent | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
people get hurt. That is part of history. What we are doing is making | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
a maximum effort to avoid civilians getting caught up in the crossfire | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
between us and the terrorists. I think a very genuine effort by | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
Israel to be as precise as we can in hitting terrorists. But I can't | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
promise, as no army can promise that innocent people get caught up and | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
hurt in a conflict. Have you looked at these cases, the bombing of the | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
market took place when a truce was supposedly in place, do you know | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
what went wrong? Well, to be fair, we announced that for our | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
humanitarian truce, and Hamas immediately declared there is no | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
truce, and they continued shooting rockets at Israel. A truce is a | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
two-way street, it is not just Israel holding its fireworks it is | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
Hamas also holding its fire, and its public record that Hamas rejected | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
the truce. That particular place in the market was an area of combat | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
today. I don't know exactly what happened at the market yet, we are | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
still investigating. We will get to the bottom of it. But in the case of | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
the school, the UN itself has declared it as a violation of | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
international law, and has also pointed out that the people in the | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
school were people who had been evacuated from their homes because | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
you had warned them to get out of their homes and they had gone to | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
where they thought was a place of shelter and it turned out they were | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
not safe there. Surely that embarrasses you? It is a tragedy | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
what happened at the school and we simple thighes with all the -- | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
sympathise with all the international outrage, we didn't see | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
what happened at the school happen. It is not clear to us that it was | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
our fire, but we know for a fact there was hostile fire on our people | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
from the vicinity of the school. We do know for a fact that there have | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
been three documented cases that the UN has spoken about, not Israel, | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
where weapons, rockets have been stored in UN facilities in in UN | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
schools. It is clear that this demonstrates Hamas has a deliberate | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
policy of brutalising UN facilities, using UN facilities as a human | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
shield, violating UN neutrality, violating the humanitarian essence | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
of a UN body and they should be condemned for it. I know that the | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
secretary-general of the United Nations has ordered an investigation | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
how this has happened, and if the particular agency involved can do | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
more to prevent its institutions being turned into part of the Hamas | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
war machine. But the problem in this case is that Ban Ki-Moon has said | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
that all the evidence does point to you having bombed the school? That's | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
what he said today? We will investigate that, and if we find it | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
was fire from Israel we will apologise if that is the case. When | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
it is shown that we have mistakenly killed civilians we have apologised. | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
There was the terrible story of the four boys on the beach, President | :38:02. | :38:09. | |
Perez himself -- Peres himself got up and apologised. We don't want to | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
kill Gazan civilians we have a policy not to target civilians. What | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
I find striking is the perception in much of the outside world in Israel | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
has changed. There was a poll of British people and it showed that | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
more than 60% of British people think that Israel is guilty of war | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
crimes. It is only marginally less than the people who think Hamas is | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
guilty of war crimes. Doesn't that embarrass you? It is a bit strange, | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
on the one hand Israel is a democracy, imperfect, but a | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
democracy, we have representative Government and a free press and | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
institutions that are transparent and so forth. And we're up against a | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
brutal extreme terrorist organisation, Hamas. Which is in the | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
mode of Boko Haram in Nigeria, or ISIS in Iraq, or Hezbollah in | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
Lebanon. Radical and extreme organisation that rules Gaza with an | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
iron fist. One of the problems with the pictures coming out of Gaza, and | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
I dare to challenge even the BBC reporters there, that Hamas can | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
control the message much more than we can out of Israel. Because if you | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
walk down the street in Gaza with a camera of the BBC, even a Newsnight | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
camera if you allow me, you ask were there Hamas people outside the | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
school shooting at Israeli soldiers, what can people say? Of course they | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
can't say because Hamas doesn't allow criticism. I think in many | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
ways Hamas can send out a very warped picture of what is going on | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
in Gaza. How many pictures have you seen of dead Hamas... There may be, | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
to an extent, a distorted picture of the sort that you describe, but it | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
is a fact that 22 Palestinians are dying for every one Israeli and this | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
is shocking much of the world. Do you care what the world thinks about | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
your behaviour in this war? Of course I do, that's why I'm staying | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
up here in the middle of the night doing Newsnight. Of course I care. | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
But let's be clear, we don't have moraly casualties, not because Hamas | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
isn't trying. We have had now 2,700 rockets fired at Israeli cities. But | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
you have the Iron Dome which protects your cities, you are more | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
or less invulnerable to these rockets? So we have, I think | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
invulnerable is too strong a word, Sir. We have invested millions of | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
dollars in protecting our people in bomb shelters and in sirens I'm sure | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
the British Government would do the same for the British people. We | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
can't allow people to shoot at our cities and trying to kill our people | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
with impunity, that is clear. We cities and trying to kill our people | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
have had now this onslaught going on for weeks, we have been told that | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
part of the aim is to close down these tunnels. When will you have | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
done the job that you want to do? Ultimately our goals are defensive, | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
I would even say defensive in the extreme. We just want to have piece | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
and quiet and a bit of security for our people. So if we come out of | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
this and the Hamas military machine is diminished and they understand | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
that they cannot shoot rockets at Israelis with impunity, that would | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
be a good thing. And what could it be, even better if Hamas comes out | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
of this weakened both militarily and politically, that could give a bit | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
of oxygen maybe to Palestinian moderates to move into the vacuum | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
and maybe have a more energetic peace process. The world woke up to | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
the power of social media to effect huge political change with the way | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
Twitter and Facebook were used in the Arab Spring. Now in the | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
conflicts proliferating throughout the Middle East the Internet has | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
become an instrument of terror, with ISIS releasing horrific footage of | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
the ISIS releasing horrific footage of | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
frighten its enemies so they flee before a bullet is fired. We report | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
on the new propagada war, this film contains very disturbing images. | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
Conflicts in the Middle East run along very old lines. The Israeli | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
Palestinian conflict goes back decades. Tensions between Shias and | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
Sunnis go back centuries. And they are boiling over in Iraq and Syria | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
and beyond. But a new fault line has emerged in recent years. Social | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
media. Cyber battles are now changing the age-old conflicts | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
between the people in power and the power of the people. Most of us use | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
these tools now, for some they are weapons. To start a revolution or to | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
wage a war. The power of social media was mobilised in 2009 in | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
Iran's failed Green Revolution, and then in the historic uprisings | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
called the Arab Spring, they started in Tunisia, Egypt and across the | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
region. It is not just activists who have recognised this power. | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
Governments, regimes use it too. In Syria, for example, the Syrian | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
electronic army is described as the first virtual Arab army. It hacks | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
into websites of the opposition, western media, and human rights | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
groups. In real wars social media has become a weapon in every | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
armoury. In the Gaza war Israel is turning to it to take the high | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
ground. To deny they targeted civilians in a school. To make it | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
clear Hamas is the agressor. There is even a clever app that allows you | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
to imagine the range of these rockets. Wherever re wherever you | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
are. The narrative is carried by many people on many fronts. | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
University volunteers joined the effort. A large portion of our | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
efforts is trying to comment and talk back on articles and posts that | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
are pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel. We do it on Facebook and Twitter and | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
websites and articles that we find. Right now the war is not only in the | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
front it is also a lot in the media. But Hamas is on this frontline too. | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
Videos from their tunnels are widely available on video sharing sites | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
like you YouTube and they are active on Twitter too. They have even | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
released guidelines on how Gazans should use Twitter to report Israeli | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
assaults. But Israel is an old hand in this information war. With an | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
army of savvy spokespersons, coached by the best in the business. | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
Persuadables won't care how much you know until they know how much you | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
care. Show empathy for both sides. But as the old saying goes, a | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
picture is worth a thousand words. In the Gaza war, so strong are the | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
images, they are worth millions of words. Buts the images used by the | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
most violent groups that have no compare. That is That's the points. | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
Videos released by compare. That is That's the points. | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
Iraq, they are meant to shock, and they do. Images like young Shia | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
soldiers in Iraq being led away and executed en masse are the latest to | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
emerge. On the one hand they are doing it to scare a target audience | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
which in this case is specifically Iraqi soldiers, trying to fight | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
against them. On the other hand it is an element of recruitment, you | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
are trying to attract people and showing you are strong and you | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
control the territory and does these things to people. The final note | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
which is more to ISIS is the idea of showing extreme brutality and using | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
it to draw people in. Across the Middle East conflicts are merging in | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
some ways, remaining distinct in others. But when it comes to the | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
battle for hearts and minds, even the most asymmetric wars are being | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
fought with at least one weapon now available to all. | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
With me to discuss who is winning the Middle East battle of social | :46:18. | :46:29. | |
media is my guest. These images of ISIS slaughtering Iraqi soldiers in | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
this brutal way. I mean they are obviously deeply shocking. They do | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
remind me a bit, I don't know if you remember during the Chechen conflict | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
there were images released of Chechens slaughtering Russians, does | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
this represent, in your view, a stepping up of and a change in the | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
way the Internet is used to get a message across? ISIS is doing what | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
many other groups have done, it is doing it fundamentally more | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
effectively, more effectively than competitors and its ex-parent | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
organisation Al-Qaeda. What is the point of it? The point is simple, it | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
is two fold, one to show how strong they are, to intimidate their | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
enemies and it has worked. Iraqi soldiers surrender without a fight, | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
because they have seen those videos, and the second point is to show | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
other groups why they should join ISIS, that is also, to some extent, | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
not to the extent ISIS hoped is working. Why join us rather than | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
Al-Qaeda, well Al-Qaeda is sitting in Pakistan in a house doing | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
absolutely nothing, where as we have taken over half of Iraq, here is the | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
video to prove it. Do you think these image, these brutal images | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
actually work to an extent to recruit potential new soldiers? I | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
think they do, although of course we have had many cases where Jihadists, | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
wet behind the ears, have turned up in Syria and Iraq and found the | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
reality of combat is far worse than evidenced by the glamorous videos | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
that they had seen on-line. It has a dual effect. The other factor is the | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
more brutal they appear the more they can shock some people into | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
surrender but the more they scare Iraq's Shia majority into resisting | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
their brutal sadistic form of rule even more vociferously. There is a | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
slight oddity, if you look at Hamas that released film of their | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
competence of going through the tunnels and attacking Israeli | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
soldiers, that broadly reinforced the Israeli case that Hamas is a | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
brutal terrorist organisation. To an extent therefore may well have back | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
fired in terms of world opinion? I think it will backfire more than the | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
images of the tunnels, which were effective in showing that Hamas were | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
still in the game and their ceasefire conditions need to be | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
taken seriously, with the images of syringes and handcuffs broadcast | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
within those tunnels is a chilling image to Israelis who understand the | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
history of kidnapping that those tunnels were used for. The fact that | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
Hamas is still able to inflict a cost on Israel, that rephoners their | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
point that -- reinforces the point that the ceasefire has to be on | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
their terms too. Does social media and the Internet broadly now level | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
the playing field between the state and terrorist organisations when it | :49:18. | :49:24. | |
comes to propaganda? No, I would say, part of the reason is the same | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
medium that is used as propaganda by both of these competents, state and | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
non-state, is also used very, very effectively by reporters on the | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
ground who can connect immediately viscerally to use and cancel out | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
both of those claims. I'm very grateful, we have one run out of | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
time, that is all we have time for tonight on the Middle East special. | :49:47. | :49:48. | |
Good night. | :49:49. | :49:55. |