12/11/2015 Newsnight

On Newsnight tonight, an exclusive interview with the Indian domestic

worker who claims her Saudi employer in Riyadh chopped off her arm.

Tonight we are in New York, the only US state so far to have elected

Could she win her party's nomination and the Presidency?

We ask political commentator and author of Primary Colours Joe Klein.

Is the warm welcome given to the Prime Minister of India

by the government good for business, but bad for human rights,

as Nahendra Modi is accused of presiding over sectarian violence?

We'll hear from one of his fans, and one of his fiercest critics.

Every year thousands of migrant workers travel to the Middle East,

many without the knowledge of the limited rights they have as domestic

employees, particularly in Saudi Arabia where according to Human

Rights Watch, their 1.5 million domestic workers face abuse

Tonight we begin the programme with an exclusive

interview with an Indian maid who claims her employers in Saudi Arabia

cut off her arm after she tried to escape from their abuse.

Kastoori Moorneerathinam spent a month in a Riyadh hospital after

losing her arm and finally returned to her home in Chennai on Sunday.

In her first TV interview, she tells Sandya Ravishankar

of the isolation and privation that she faced, and about the events

Kastoori used to be the family breadwinner, her elderly husband has

a long problem and has never worked. Her son suffers an industrial

accident a few years ago which has prevented him from working. Earlier

this year, Kastoori became desperate to find work to make ends meet.

There are more to find work to make ends meet.

Indians working in Saudi Arabia, including thousands of domestic

workers. Agencies match workers with families, who sponsored their visas

and must give consent for their employees to change jobs or leave

the country. Kastoori no Arabic, was sent to a family in Riyadh, who took

her pass but from her when she arrived. -- Kastoori, who spoke no

Arabic. After two months in Riyadh, her

employers told her one evening that they would send her to the police

station where she would be imprisoned.

But the driver was away from the house when she arrived.

A spokesman for the Riyadh police told reporters that Kastoori, seen

here in a Saudi hospital, was suffering from mental disturbances,

and had severed her own arm while falling during an escape attempt.

The Indian government has launches investigation into the attack and

has played Kastoori compensation, but she wants reparations from her

former employers, who have not faced charges. -- has paid.

The case has also highlighted concerns about the treatment of

domestic workers in Saudi Arabia. The Indonesian government banned

migration to the kingdom for domestic work in 2011, Kastoori

would like the Indian government to do the same.

We asked the Saudi government to comment on this case, but they

declined. Last month a police spokesman disputed recount. --

disputed her account. Joining me now is Aidan McQuade,

the director of Is that the only extreme case you

have heard of? No, the Indonesian government banned its nationals and

travelling to Saudi Arabia and the Ethiopian government did the same

because of such extreme cases of violence against workers in Saudi

Arabia, including execution and murder, and behind these extreme

cases, this is the tip of the iceberg with other sorts of physical

and sexual violence which people are going through. With stories getting

back to India, why do so many people keep travelling? Desperation.

India, despite being an increasingly wealthy country for 600 million

people, for 300 million people it is a desperately poor country and it

will not get any better because they are excluded from economic benefits

within India by the more powerful and more affluent of the upper caste

within that society. The Saudi ambassador to Delhi has said that

the case is actually... She actually fell and cut her arm and a

generator. There is no way to know the truth. -- on a generator. If one

was to ask the question, what is the most probable situation, Kastoori's

account is more credible, especially in the context of the appalling

levels of violence and reported violence which comes out of that

region. The position for domestic workers in Saudi Arabia, and not

just there, when they are taken to an employer, there is no way, and

they are not even allowed to report abuse,, is that right? Yes, Saudi

Arabia is a slave straight, I find it incredible that Britain and other

parts of Europe can maintain such warm relations with that country,

given the gross levels of abuse which carry on within that state.

And the confiscation of passports, the physical and sexual abuse, the

restrictions of movements, these are contemporary forms of slavery, and

this is underpinned by a system which involves tied visas, which

ties the visas to their employer. The British government, at the human

rights Council recently, they called for an end to the system across the

Middle East. It is unfortunate that the Home Office seems intent on

maintaining a similar system within the UK for domestic workers here.

There is not so much restriction within a household, one assumes, but

what is the system in Britain and why is it so detrimental to some

foreign domestic workers? The system is the same, you tied the Beazer to

the employer within the UK, and it is clear to the domestic worker, if

they leave that employment, they will be deported -- you tie the

Visa. When it comes to salaries for admittance back home, this gives

unscrupulously employers enormous power. Cases are reported in the UK?

What kind of cases? People can go to the police eventually? There is no

inspection of private households and it is very difficult for domestic

workers to leave those circumstances when they have no recourse to

employment elsewhere, they are so desperately poor. The situation,

despite two committees at the house of parliament, saying that domestic

workers should be allowed to change employers, the government seems

wedded to the idea that they shouldn't. Thanks for joining us.

At midnight the Public Accounts committee is going to release

its report on the public money handed to Kids Company, and it will

be damning about the amount of funds given to the busted charity.

Today meanwhile we learned more details of

the charity's largesse towards some of its clients in written testimony

Newsnight talked to the charity's founder Camilla Batamnagellish.

She disputed many of the claims but confirmed others.

What is the latest? Camila Batmanghelidjh spoke to the

programme a couple of hours ago. One of the investigations into Kids

Company has been dumping an enormous amount of written testimony from

former employees online. One thing we've seen again and again,

employees who really feel their voices are not being heard, and who

are positive about the charity, saying that the story about the

financial mismanagement misses the good work that the charity did, but

there is one piece of testimony which is very striking. It is

anonymous, but they are a staff member. What they have said, a range

of allegations, and they speak to an issue which has been running through

the Kids Company story. Is Kids Company very generous to a small

ground of Camila Batmanghelidjh's favourite clients? Was it taking a

unusual approach and spending money that needed to be spent? Camila

Batmanghelidjh says there is a kernel of truth to some of the

issues, for example, this person said that postal orders were being

paid out to prisoners in prison who were connected to the charity. That

is a strange practice. We can have a look at this. This is what Camila

Batmanghelidjh has said about this, she confirmed it happened and she

said: you can say, it is the whole thing,

unconventional needs or largess, that is one of the Kids Company

questions, and here we have another case. A client was taken to a spa

and Camila Batmanghelidjh confirms this, but she denies it was for

pampering. She very briefly, did Camila

Batmanghelidjh give the programme any sense of how happy she is with

the way the investigation is going? Yes, she is very unhappy, and it's

worth pointing at, it is not just one investigation, there are maybe

five, perhaps six which are going on or just finished. She wants a judge

led enquiry, a Royal commission, something like that, to look into

Kids Company, she says the fundamental problem is that it was

about meeting problem is that the government could not meet, and it

needed something from outside the government. Thanks for joining us.

According to a new poll today Hiillary Clinton is still fending

off the opposition, scoring 52% among Democrats to Bernie Sanders

So will she consolidate that lead in Saturday's second Democrat debate

Good evening from New York, the state that elected Hillary Clinton

as its senator - her first, and so far only elected legislative post.

Hilary's name is ubiquitous in this campaign, but often it's

To them she represents the nightmare scenario:

big government, and all that is wrong and broken by Washington.

To the Democrats she represents the voice of experience and the chance

of breaking new ground as America's first ever female President.

But has the country taken her to its heart?

First, we report from the Democrats' campaign trail.

The high velocity adrenaline rides in this presidential candidate race

really belong to the Republican Party.

This time around, the Democrats look like they have

With one standout candidate, Hillary Clinton.

For some voters here in South Carolina, like Karen,

She probably knows more about the world than any woman or

She's had enough experience to guide us.

And I think it would be great to see a female as the president and she is

probably the best qualified woman or man to be the US president.

With a full year to go, of course, anything could happen.

But as things stand, Clinton has more or less seen off her opponents.

In Rock Hill, in the north of the state,

For hustings which include Bernie Sanders, her closest competitor,

And former Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley.

He told us, naturally, the race is wide open.

I think after tonight it's a three horse race.

This is the night when the American public actually zeroed in and saw

Two of them from the rather polarised past of the party.

And one of them which is actually speaking to where

Vice President Joe Biden, Clinton's biggest threat,

But for Hillary, perhaps, the real hurdle is her own binary brand.

Adored in some places, positively toxic elsewhere.

And if she makes it to the end, it will be through a firmly double

glazed glass ceiling, she would be the first female

Unfortunately, that's the political season we're in.

Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun knows a thing or two

She ran for President in 2004, an Illinois Democrat, she was

the first African-American woman to be elected to the US Senate.

There are people that continue to be frightened by the idea of a woman

I had a conversation with a girlfriend after

President Obama's election and I said I found it interesting that

there is more openness to a person of colour than there is to women.

And she said, that is because a person of colour is the other.

You have, in your life, familiarity, and a set of attitudes about women,

that you might not have about people who look different.

And so we come back to the idea that it is about shaping attitudes.

And that is Hillary Clinton's biggest challenge.

The Hillary conundrum is a slightly odd one.

People don't know quite how to view her.

Her election, because of her gender, would be necessarily

ground-breaking, but yet she is viewed as firmly part

of the establishment, the candidate that people know almost too well.

She has been a staple of public life for more than 20 years.

As First Lady, as Senator, and Secretary of State before now.

This time around she is running as a progressive candidate who

She wants paid sick leave, expanded childcare, higher minimum wage,

Ambassador Verveer was her chief of staff, part of her intimate circle

at the White House, she recalls her work ethic and commitment even then.

There were good days and bad days collectively, in the administration.

But among us we were known as Hillary Land.

Because we were very cohesive group of people, mostly women.

But extremely hard-working, which was an example that she said.

In those eight years, hardly anybody left her staff,

and these were a group of people that could have worked anywhere.

We often said, it's Friday, so two more days until Monday.

People worked hard, but there was a sense of purpose

For Republicans, Clinton is the storybook baddie,

the snatcher of freedoms, the purveyor of big government.

They invoke her name as the incarnation of broken America.

They even made a Wi-Fi password for this week's presidential

Yet even among the wider public there is a sense

that people might look up to her, but don't necessarily warm to her.

They will remember the names of the often unproven scandals

which pursued her, Whitewater, Vince Foster,

And even if they can't tell you really what happened or how they

For me, it is more about trust with her.

I can't quite say that I trust her 100%.

And I don't always agree with the way that she interacts with

I wish that she had a bit more public appeal

As a military guy coming out of the military, I wasn't a big fan.

The whole Benghazi thing, I was not a big fan of that.

If it's one thing that you can't tell the country about,

but you can tell your family about, it is probably pretty important

I was a Marine for 12 years and I don't like someone who is going to

keep secrets from us that could have saved some lives.

And her challenge in the campaign circus

of the next few months will be to convince people of her integrity.

One of the biggest shortcomings of Hillary Clinton is seen

If you look at national polls, she scores very low on those things.

She is seen as incredibly capable and very experienced, but people

And that has a legacy from when she was first lady in the White House.

The Republicans constantly went after her and a lot

Which might explain why last month she took to the politicians'

entertainment weapon of choice, Saturday Night Live.

It is a curious hybrid satire, poking fun at America's

politicians, but inviting them inside to share the joke.

The Democrats look set to hold their nerve, and the seemingly inexorable

march of Hillary as candidate gives her party a strong sense of unity,

And yet, and yet, the inevitability, if any one dare use that word,

is also having a curiously deadening effect

They may yet have the next US president in their grasp, but their

challenge will be to get America excited enough to make it happen.

Joe Klein is a political commentator who followed the Clinton Presidency

closely, and fictionalised it in the novel Primary Colours.

It is great to have you tonight. Would you say it is a shoe in, does

it look all but done? It pains me to say things like that, but it

probably is, unless there are other controversies, scandals, whatever,

that come up. The Clintons tend to come up -- tend to have them come

up! The FBI is investigating the e-mails, but the thing she has to

worry about most is the Clinton foundation and the contributions

from foreign countries and the speeches that Bill Clinton made

while she was Secretary of State. He gave 12 speeches for more than

$500,000 in the 15 years since he left the White House, nine of them

were given while she was Secretary of State. You can bet that will not,

now in the primaries, in the nomination fight, but in the general

election next year, it will be as big as Mitt Romney had four years

ago. The people that we spoke to raised two issues, trust, which you

are referring to, and of a sense of warmth, that she is one of the

people. Or those issues that will stick come the election? She is

warmer than she comes off. I have seen her belly laugh. Others will

before this is over. I think she is very cautious and often to a fault.

She assumes the worst about the press and she is usually right. In

American politics, warm always beats cold, with the exception of 1968,

when Richard Nixon beat Humphrey. It depends on who she is running

against, it always comes down to two people on a stage in the debate, and

the American people try to figure out, who do you want in your kitchen

for the next four years? Whoever is president will be new, there is a

sense we do not understand of whether Republicans and Democrats

take it in turns, whether you have to have a change at this point? The

last time this came up was Al Gore and there was a change, but in 1988

there was not a change. Nobody thought that George Bush was warm

and fuzzy, but he was running against the coldest fish imaginable,

and Atlantic salmon, Michael Dukakis. When you look at the

Republican nominees and you explore what feels like a movement that we

are familiar with in Europe, the UK, anti-politics, she represents all

that people know, politics, Washington, the establishment, will

that be an extra difficult fight this time if there is that anger of

the American person? It should not be that difficult to fight, because

the two most likely outsiders, Donald Trump and Ben Carson, are

brutally flawed candidates. They do not know much about the world. If

there is one thing you can say about Hillary Clinton, she is

knowledgeable, people who watched her during the Benghazi hearing said

they could not take their eyes off it. It was like watching a British

mystery or something, it was compelling. I don't mean to

patronise. She was so prepared, she was so calm, and so comprehensive.

She could tell you everything that was going on throughout the region

on the night of the Benghazi problem. When people look back over

the last eight years, the Barack Obama administration that offered

hope and change, do you think they will see in action and a sort of

disappointment more than anything else? Do you think that will be hard

for her to come onto? The reality is that we have bounced back pretty

well after a tremendous economic crisis. We being the Democrats or

America? America. I am homeless politically, I am neither a Democrat

nor a Republican. This country has bounced back. There are programmes

like universal health care, which seems to be working OK, and there

are new initiatives, like the Iran nuclear treaty, the Republicans have

tried very hard to bad-mouth those, but not with much success. The

economy is booming, unemployment is down to 5%, on the other hand,

though, and at a macro has had trouble presenting himself as a warm

character Ash Mike Barack Obama. It is close to 50% approval, but he

still has not got there. We are still only in November, we have a

year to go. The first caucuses and primaries of Iowa and New Hampshire

tend to set the pace, but do not default, some of the front runners

are not even mentioned by the time you get to the conventions in

August, let alone by the real election in November.

There will eventually be 27 replies from EU countries to David Cameron's

shopping list for EU renegotiation, a list Eurosceptics have derided

as paltry, and Newsnight has a ministerial response from the French

which is perhaps best described as a Gallic shrug.

This on the day that the President of the European Council Donald Tusk

warned that if David Cameron wants this all settled by December,

Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is here.

Mark, what do the French see as the most contentious part

It is important, the Government is by Justin Guess, they do not know

the real shape of it, there are questions, is this a treaty change

thing or not? A couple of Cameron's point eight concept to one side, the

contentious ones, the language about ever closer union, and the issue,

can you stop migrants coming to the UK by preventing them from getting

benefits? And for how long, what is the tricky position? This is

something which has hit the French quite hard, let's hear.

I think it's important that there is no willingness to change

the treaties, at least in the short-term.

This is not something that the French Government would see

There is a question of, is it legal or not, and of, is it good

What about the emphasis on timing? She has got two points, the first

about the migrant crisis and the strain that has put on Europe, but

also the ride of Euroscepticism, nationalism, across the EU. 2009, if

we look at the graphic, the countries signed up to the deal in

blue and the more difficult or soft Euro-sceptic countries in Orange.

Now, with a series of election victories from Greece to Portugal to

Finland, David Cameron in the UK, it is a different picture. The French

see these doubts, they see in their own country growing Paul Schaus for

the National front, they want to get out of the Euro, they talk about

suspending Schengen, they see it as a real challenge to the whole

project, and for that reason, this language that Mr Cameron has put

forward about getting out of any promise to effort was a union, the

engine of federalism or greater integration, since it was put into

the Roman treaty at the beginning of this experiment in bringing

countries together, they are very nervous about that language.

We do not have the details about this.

If it's getting nearer to the protocol that the ones that were

signed for Denmark or Ireland, this is a matter for open discussion.

But if it is a complete re-questioning of the sense of the

original treaties, this is probably not something we can agree on.

Pretty clear there, thank you very much.

In a speech to both Houses of Parliament the

Indian President Narendra Modi described his three-day visit

as a huge moment for our two great nations, but there's unease at

An open letter from PEN International, signed

by 200 writers, including Salman Rushdie, Ian McEwan and Neel

Mukherjee has urged him to put the climate of intolerance in India on

the agenda, in the wake of shocking incidents of sectarian violence.

Has Britain finally got the attention of the leader

of the fastest-growing large economy in the world?

Despite being in recess, both Houses of Parliament invited

him to address them, the first for an Indian leader who is in the thick

In a nation connected by cellphones, digital India is transforming

the interface between government and people.

So, with apologies to poet TS Eliot, we will not let the shadow fall

The shadow is alleged inaction while Chief Minister of Gujarat

in 2002 during a plague of sectarian violence there

The Red Arrows are going to be flying by, and it's not going to

be red, white and blue, it's going to the colours of the Indian flag.

He's going to be hosted by the Queen.

What do those British Muslims, those three individuals who were

burned alive in 2002 while they were on holiday, their families are going

to be here soon, what do they think about that same Narendra Modi?

He described what happened as like a car running over a puppy,

The Indian Prime Minister said his point was that every Indian life

Already on this visit business deals worth more than ?9 billion have been

Well, here to discuss Narendra Modi's record in India since coming

to power, we have Nishma Gosrani, a financial-services director who has

been involved in the British Indian community's efforts to welcome Modi

to the UK, and Aditya Chakrabortty from the Guardian.

Good evening to you both. What do you think Modi has done so far,

tangible for the Indian economy? The last 16 months, he has had a great

vision to start with, if we look at digital India and make in India,

that is a phenomenal vision. As a leader, India as a country is vast

and it takes a lot of time to implement change and he is doing

that. In the only way he possibly can. If we take a Swatch Park, a

great campaign, he has had corporate India in Dost hygiene, sanitation,

for India, and they are looking at making a promise to make sure that

hygiene and sanitation changes across the country by 2019. We have

these big deals, five deals done today, and so is it a balance which

actually, much in the way of China, you have got to take the rough with

the smooth? There are problems with India. Among those amazing deals,

the export of Legoland to India, do not forget. Amazing. There is no

denying, much of the rhetoric and slogans he has come out with have

been attractive, let's have manufacturing in India, great, let's

have more IT in India, great. If you want to look at his record, look at

when he was in charge of a state for yes, and that state got richer under

him, no doubt about that, but the rich got richer, and what happened,

that state lags behind the rest of India and poverty reduction and

literacy and malnutrition. -- on poverty reduction. He said the

reason for that was that middle-class girls look at fashion

magazines and they are too much into dieting. The reality and the

rhetoric, and Modi is big and retro, but the reality, much as we saw with

the domestic workers, life is pretty appalling for millions of Indians.

-- Modi is big on rhetoric. We have to deal with him as a legitimately

elected leader of the largest democracy in the world. You have

spoken about the state he was in charge of, the Supreme Court of

India rejected the allegations that were made against him, Britain had

the opportunity to make representation. Arundhati Roy says

minorities are being forced to live in terror. You are going to get

protesters, we have had protesters on the streets in the last couple of

days during the course of his visit, but we have got to remember in the

ten years, when the opposition was in power, neither was he arrested or

convicted through that process, legal proceedings took place and the

Supreme Court of India rejected the allegations. Arundhati Roy has it

wrong, then? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I think that

different opinions are going to be apparent in a diverse country with

diverse opinions, but he is, for us in Britain, a legitimately elected

leader. The allegation is sectarianism. If we can bring a few

facts and, by the government's own figures, religious violence is up

25% in India within a year. The other thing to bear in mind, just

take a step back, Modi comes from an organisation which is a Hindu

paramilitary fascist organisation. It is ironic watching him next to

the statue of Gandhi. The are SS has been banned three times by the

Indian government, it is so extreme. What it wants to do is not create a

secular superpower, it would like to create a Hindu dominated superpower.

The people that will go along to Wembley, they will just be British

Hindus? The vast majority will be, yes. India has the third largest

Muslim population in the world and it gave the world Buddhism and it

still has a significant Christian population, and yet what Modi and

his allies want to do is to find out what a glorious democracy should

apply, to being a Hindu superpower. -- should look like. You will be

involved tomorrow. There will be Muslims at their tomorrow. --

Muslims their tomorrow. Not very many. Tomorrow, politician will be

addressing 60,000 people at Wembley, when have we ever have

that? They have put together a show which involves the British Philemon

ago August, 400 diverse organisations have come together,

60,000 strong -- British Philharmonic Orchestra. The Muslim

presence will be completely tokenistic. I have to disagree with

that. What is it, then, the Diaspora, they seem very keen to

embrace him? What is it? I think it comes back to this, Modi throughout

his career has played two roles very well. The corporate chief

executive, the dynamic code getting guide, but when things go wrong, he

lapses into the thug who is willing to let his extremist acolytes do

what they want. I disagree with that. He was elected the Chief

Minister three times, and he created an economic powerhouse in his time

in the western state of India, and 60,000 people are going to see him

tomorrow, including 1.5 million strong British Indian dies for in

this country. -- Diaspora in this country. They said he was guilty of

handing over land, giving cut rate electricity and super soft loans to

big corporations who then bankroll his electoral campaign. The same

guys that flew him around in private jets, they were getting very sweet

deals from him. The same guys, who are cleaning India for him, and

created an economic powerhouse and an emerging economy where Britain

needs to be part of, in terms of trade. Britain needs to engage with

India, absolutely, but the kind of India which is being presented by

Modi, it is a narrow and mean... It is an economy which is growing

increasingly unequal and the response to that has been to put

someone like Modi in that place. India is one of the largest -- India

has one of the largest private sector companies. Thanks for joining

us. That's almost it for tonight,

but before we go, those of you who follow

the glamorous lives of the rich and famous may have noticed that

Hollywood actor Shia LaBeouf has recently been reinventing himself as

something of a performance artist. His latest bizarre project involves

sitting through a three-day marathon of every single one of his films,

whilst live streaming Not to be outdone, we thought,

who here at Newsnight has a back