19/11/2015 Newsnight

Confirmed dead - the Belgian ringleader of the Paris attacks died

in yesterday's raid alongside Europe's first female suicide

We ask, how can Europe best protect itself?

They are pretty good at this. If this is what we were not able to

stop, I fear that the situation in other European countries may be

rather worse. The CIA's former counter-terrorism

chief gives us his take. Also tonight,

as junior doctors vote to strike, Sit down and talk about it. Do not

put patient safety at risk. It is not necessary.

I'm here to admit that I am in fact HIV-positive.

And as Charlie Sheen comes out of the HIV closet, are public attitudes

I was scared and I was angry and I was upset. I thought I was going to

take my own life. We know now that the ringleader

of the Paris attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud,

was killed in the city's Saint Denis district yesterday morning, his body

riddled with bullets and shrapnel. According to the French authorities,

before last Friday's assault, he'd been implicated in four

of six foiled attacks But how did he manage to move

around Europe, and indeed as is suspected, back

and forth from Syria, unimpeded? How were the French unaware he'd

entered the country when he was And what does that failure tell us

about the scale of the threat we face, and what

needs to be done to combat it? Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a wanted man,

now confirmed dead. Formal identification came from the human

rights of a man accused of inhuman rear -- acts. Forensics providing an

answer to one important question. Any relief in Paris tonight has been

tempered by the questions that do not have answers. How did he get

here and who else may he have brought with him? Troubling issues

not just for the French but other European intelligence agencies. This

was a man they knew, a man who had terror on his mind, a man who

appeared to move effortlessly across borders. Abu Dua is more than just a

dot on the radar. He came to the attention of the Brussels

authorities as an armed robber. Apparently radicalised in jail, last

year he appeared in gruesome IS videos filmed in Syria. Then his

associates claimed he had died. It was a lie. By January of this year

he was organising a terror cell in Belgium. It was raided by police.

Abaaoud escaped justice. He later boasted that in the aftermath a

Belgian police officer stopped him but failed to match his face with a

wanted photograph. It was assumed he went back to Syria but nobody seems

to know. Either way, until yesterday's events in Saint Denis, a

man the authorities were desperate to catch had dropped off their

radar. And as the clean-up began today, it

emerged he did not appear to be hiding. Witnesses claimed they had

seen him wandering around the neighbourhood where he eventually

died. With him, it is reported, was this woman. It is believed she blew

herself up in yesterday's raid. The performance of the security

services and intelligence gatherers, it has been very good and

very bad. It has been very good in the sense that to my understanding

none of the perpetrators have been identified in acts of terrorism in

France over the last few years, including the latest events, wore

what in the jargon were called clean skins. The bad news is the ability

of the security services to follow through their intelligence has not

been up to scratch. Officers have shown great courage in

the last week. Some experts say they will have two again because European

spy agencies are too secretive with each other. They have to learn to

share. What is needed is a kind of global

European intelligence service that would be able to gather information

everywhere and act directly. Inui agency has to be built, otherwise

one house to restore the frontiers as before. -- a new agency. You

cannot have it both ways. You cannot have Europe without frontiers and

have this sort of system based on national security.

Over the last couple of days, police in France and Belgium have conducted

hundreds of raids against potential terror suspects. In police speak,

they call it shaking the tree. Expect the same tactics in Britain

soon because the priority now is to come down hard and early. Could

someone like Abu Dua slip in and out of Britain? Our borders are

tighter. We have wall-to-wall CCTV, some cameras with facial

recognition. But nobody in counter-terrorism thinks that makes

is immune. The French are pretty good at this.

So if this is what we were not able to stop I fear that the situation in

other European countries may be rather worse. Those countries which

have proportionately large number of jihadi tourists, Belgium, Denmark,

Germany, to name a few of the most prominent ones. I understand the

German authorities are extremely nervous. The Danish authorities have

just ramped up their own terror alerts. Yes, they are wise to do

that. British police and MI5 are watching events here and quietly

reviewing border security, checking watch lists, listening to agents.

No French style state of emergency yet but the plots are coming thick

and fast. And there is a new worry. More and more of them are being

co-ordinated from Syria. Nick Hopkins on the challenge of IS

in Europe. To talk about that,

and also how to take the fight to their strongholds in Syria and Iraq,

I'm joined by Ambassador Henry Crumpton, who was one

of the leaders of the CIA's counter Thanks for joining us. What happened

in Paris looks like a massive failure of intelligence, doesn't it?

It is a horrendous tragedy and certainly there have been some

intelligence faults. But I think the larger issue is the strategic policy

failure to allow the enemy, Isis, to establish and maintain a safe haven,

a proto- state, in the heart of the Middle East. And also to maintain

micro havens in place like Molenbeek in Belgium. What can people do about

it? You led the campaign in Afghanistan in 2001. Al-Qaeda were

the main terror threat then. Is IS a different proposition? There are

some similarities. One of the key reasons for the initial success in

2001 was it was also a local victory. In that campaign you only

had 400 Americans on the ground. You had Afghan ground forces and a

superior air force that complemented what we were doing on the ground.

That principle needs to be applied when we look at Isis but Isis is

also different. They have a larger areas -- area. They have tens of

thousands of fighters. They can infiltrate into Europe and other

places more easily. They are battle hardened. They are sophisticated,

using commercial encryption, which Al-Qaeda was not using very much of

years ago. It is a tough target in many ways. It is more complex. The

US, Britain, France, others, they will need to put several thousand

troops on the ground to support and encourage local fighters,

complemented by air power. You say air will never be enough? No. Air

strikes need to complement what we're doing on the ground. Moreover

the most important ally will be local allies, Muslim allies. It has

to be their victory. To have a chance of an enduring success. And

moreover the military part of this is essential to stop the enemy from

killing us. But it buys space and time for non-military application

all power to coming afterwards to secure a village or a valley. That

is where we have failed across the board in Afghanistan, Libya are now

in Syria and Iraq. You are saying if you were running this one, you would

have boots on the ground. Do you think the CIA is arguing for that as

well? I left the CIA years ago. I am not sure what they are arguing. I

would hope they are on the ground. 50 special operations officers will

be in Syria. You will need more than that. I'm guessing between 5000 and

10,000 troops that are supporting local fighters. That is the key. It

has to be a local victory. You need Turkey, Jordan and others to support

this. It is ultimately about a local success. And right now we have a

long way to go. How did they fail last time in your view? Who fail? In

Afghanistan, for example, what was the failure? The failure was the

follow-through. After the initial success you had a degree of

stability all the way into 2004, 2005, that allowed al-Qaeda and the

Taliban to flee Pakistan, regroup, train and infiltrate back into

Afghanistan. Then you add a full-scale insurgency. Moreover, the

US shifted focus and forces to Iraq. You have to finish the fight. That

means non-military power. What kind of commitment do you think the US is

looking to in Syria? The US needs to move and move now. There has been

discussion of the need for strategic patients. I think now we need to

think about the moral imperative of attacking the enemy, attacking the

enemy now and destroying their safe haven, their command and control,

and then addressing the conditions the enemy are exploiting. That

includes some of the atrocities perpetrated by the Assad government,

supported by Iran and Hezbollah. That is part of this equation. That

is what has been feeding the Sunni fighters, including some of the Isis

fighters. We talked about intelligence are little at the

beginning. In yet the report before your interview someone was saying,

European intelligence agencies are to BT. They need a centralised one.

What do the CIA think of the European intelligence agencies?

Years ago when I was there at the reputation was uneven. Some very

good, some not so good. If you look at the lack of investment in

intelligence security, and particularly the offence among

European nations, that is a big shortfall. -- defence. The French in

particular, particularly internal security, good. There are special

operations, good. But you cannot expect predictive tactical

intelligence perfection when you have got major enemy safe havens in

the Middle East and some smaller micro havens right next door. You

cannot expect perfect intelligence. You think there is a risk from

refugees? Yes, I think that has been demonstrated by this horrible attack

in Paris. However, I don't think that we should be drawn away from

the more central issue of enemy safe haven in the heart of the Middle

East. In fact, if the US working with allies, particularly France and

others, could push back enemy safe havens next to Jordan and Turkey,

you would provide an area for refugees where they could gather and

they could be safe. The many displaced, millions of displaced

people from Syria, they could be part of the occupation force after

you push ices out. They need to be part of the solution and not a

burden. Thank you so much Ambassador Crumpton.

Almost a week after the horrors visited on their

city last Friday night, Parisians have been starting the process of

For some though, that process has yet to begin.

The relatives of those who died haven't even had the chance to

He lost his brother, Cederique, in the attack on the Bataclan

concert hall, and Lewis Goodall has been talking to him.

Cederique Mauduit was only 41 years old when he died on Friday.

He shared a deep love of music with his brother, Mathieu.

He leaves behind him a wife and two children aged seven and four.

He went to see Eagles of Death Metal, a band that he liked.

There were five friends, three escaped

and they asked him to follow, but he couldn't for some reason.

On another channel we saw that something bad was happening.

First of all I said, oh my God, this is terrible.

I thought, no, he won't be there, it is Antoine's birthday tomorrow.

And the next day at half past seven the phone rang

It was my mum saying, you know what's happening?

I said, yeah, I've seen the TV, thank you.

Unfortunately Antoine lost his dad, so his mother

and I had to tell Antoine that his dad won't be able to come

and see him and he will never see him again, but in his heart,

We have to survive for him and we have to get strong.

How do you begin to tell a child that their father has died

It's hard enough for adults to understand, let alone children.

We just said, most of them are dead, so don't worry.

The point is just to say to your kids,

Your dad is not here, I won't replace him 100%, but I'll do all

They killed 130 people, perhaps more,

they killed some people in Sudan or whatever, but guys, it's too late.

You already lost, because the whole world is against you now.

And if it is not me it's going to be somebody else and somebody else

You lost, because God is not on your side.

"The worst news for patients in the history of the NHS" -

that's how one campaign group described today's decision

The first walk out will be on December 1st,

after 98% backed industrial action on a respectable 76% turnout.

The saga over their contracts has been rumbling on for three years,

with the government presenting the changes as a push to give us

a seven-day NHS in England, and doctors' groups claiming new working

The doctors' union the BMA has been locked in an argument with the

Government about changes to how junior doctors get paid and their

working hours. We've shown you some of their stories. Without an

agreement, the Government said it would impose changes on doctors. So

the BMA balloted to strike. 6th November and I've received my ballot

from the BMA. Today egot the results, junior doctors voted

overwhelmingly for industrial action. Three days in December are

in the diary when senior doctors will have to cover. One day for

emergency care and others are full walkouts. The BMA says it wants to

restart talks but only if they are arbitrated by ACAS, the arbitration

service. The Health Secretary also says he wants talks but unarbitrated

ones first. My door has been open for talks since June and the BMA

have refused to engage at any stage with talks. We've had a thorough

independent process. We now need to discuss the outcome of that process.

I don't rule tout involvement of third parties in future, but for now

the right thing to do is to call off the strike, come and talk to the

Government about how we can work together to improve we weekend care

for patients. This is really simple maths. This can't be safe. You can't

guarantee you are not going to work more hours, if you are not going to

give us more doctors... If there are December strikes it is not clear how

public opinion will move. The NHS is already struggling. The English NHS

aims to have fewer than 5% of A patients dealt with in more than

four hours. September's figures for last year, when we didn't quite make

that target. And this year, when we missed it by a bit more. Now that's

an ill portent for this winter. That means we are in worse shape than

last year. And last December more than 10% of admissions broke the

four hour rule. So these strikes aren't ideally timed. The timing of

this strike couldn't possibly be worse. We are heading into winter.

The winter pressures on the health service are always considerable.

That's inevitable. And I fear very much indeed that people will suffer

as a result of these proposed actions. So there's public sympathy

for doctors, but there's a risk in striking. If the NHS struggles and

patients suffer over Christmas, the doctors could be blamed for it by

the public. A strike is a powerful weapon, but it's not one without

risks. Dr Johan Malawana is the Chair

of Junior Doctors' Committee at the British Medical Association, which

is organising the industrial action. You have timed this for absolute

maximum disruption when people are most likely to need the NHS? That's

not true Katie. We've been pushed into this action because of the

effects of the Government. The Government came out in July and they

have said they are going to impose a contract this August. We've been

dictated the timetable by Jeremy Hunt and this Government. But you

are having the strike? December? We've followed the legislation

that's set out and we've been going through that as we've been asked.

The fact is no junior doctor ever wants to go out an strike. But they

are. The Government pushed us into this action. Even with a mandate of

98%, we've said to the Government, please let's have proper

conciliation talks and the Government refuses. I'm confused, as

I understand it, in July in document came out by an independent body. You

haven't negotiated on it at all. You haven't spoken to the Government

since then, so why do you need to go to another third party. You might as

well start the negotiations, why go on strike? The fact is the

negotiations are being offered are not serious negotiations. Why not?

That's a question for the Government. The Government has

been... The Government say they are, of course. Well, the Government says

that and yet junior doctors they'll have read the documents that Jeremy

Hunt has set out. 98 periods of them have said the Government's position

is not actually correct. What would serious negotiations look like to

you then? We want a serious negotiation that basically takes

away the threat of imposition, a gun that's held to the head of junior

doctors, and we have a discussion about the safe working practice of

junior doctors. That's key to this. If doctors work safely they'll be

less tired and they can have less negative effects on patients. As a

result you are putting patient safety at risk. On 8th December when

it is a full strike, when there are no junior doctors in A, what's the

worst that can happen? The fact is there are doctors throughout the NHS

that will be working. Consultants and SAS doctors. But no junior

doctors. Nurses, consultants and SAS doctors. We are committed to making

sure we are going provide the safest NHS as we can in this. As we can.

What's the impact, do you think? We've given the NHS three weeks of

notice, two weeks more than we need, to because we are very clear we want

the NHS to prepare for this. We want the Government to stop going down

this pathway, stop pushing us into this industrial action. That's what

we really want. Can you guarantee that nobody will die? We are really

hoping that Jeremy Hunt... Hoping?! We hope that Jeremy Hunt takes away

the threat of imposition and takes to us seriously about a safe

contract for doctors. That's not an answer. Can you guarantee that

nobody will die on December 8th? In medicine unfortunately there are no

guarantees. There are more guarantees if all the doctors are

there. We've said all along we want safe, fair contracts. The safety of

patients in the long term is affected if Jeremy Hunt imposes this

contract. What would you say to our viewers who've routine operations

clanked for viewers who've routine operations

clanked -- planned for those days. What's your message to them? The

fact is no doctor wants to cause the disruption that we are seeing. What

we are asking the public is to support their junior doctors and

talk to the Government. Tell this Government that actually imposing an

unsafe contract on junior doctors is ultimately going to have massive

impact on both patients and the NHS. We need to actually safe to the

Government, this is unfair and this is wrong. How much free time do you

think it is reasonable for a junior doctor to have? You've been

criticised for having enough time to run a separate business, a wedding

photography business. I think I'm not going dignify that with an

answer, because the fact is that we are here too talk about... You run a

business on the side. I'm here to talk about junior doctors. Junior

doctors are a vital component of the NHS. What we want to provide...

Nobody's doubting that, absolutely not. We want to provide a safe

service for our patients. If we cannot have a safe contract that

protects our hours and stops us working in an unsafe way, that's

ultimately going to be really unfair on doctors and their patients. But

part of the argument is about the free time as you need. And if you

you as a junior doctor are able to run a separate business, people out

there might think, that's a little strange. What I did while I was

doing research in my spare time is a different matter. So you no longer

do it? What we are here to talk about is the safety of junior

doctors and patients. I think that line of questioning suggests that we

are not focusing on the issue that's absolutely at the heart of this. So

you do still run a wedding photography business? The fact is...

Yes or no? I spend all my time doing these interviews I'm afraid. So you

are not running it? What we need to talk about is junior doctors and the

safe hours that we are working. I am absolutely adamant that what we need

to do is enter serious talks through the conciliation service, with ACAS.

We've offered that with the Government and the Government

refuses to engage with that. Johan Malaarwana, thank you.

Earlier today, a minister finally answered some questions about

a very expensive story - why was so much public funding given to the

A committee of MPs quizzed Oliver Letwin,

one of two ministers who overruled officials to hand ?3 million

of public funds to the charity just days before it collapsed.

What did Oliver Letwin have to do today? First he had to stop the

whispering that this is really a story about David Cameron. There've

been a few Murrays about how he is the ultimate patron of Kids Company.

The reason it got so much money was it was his will. The second he had

to do was making it seem like Kids Company were given money on a

rational basis. How did he deal with it? He kept the Prime Minister out

of it. That's good news for him. The bad news for him is he didn't really

manage to put up a rational case for funding charity at all. For example

there was a point when he started boasting how tough he'd been on the

challenge. He gave an odd anecdote about taking a call from Alan Yentob

in his car and turning him down for money. And he said we never believed

their figures, so it didn't matter that they were wrong. Another person

said, how did you know it was good charity? He said, I visited it. But

not for more than a decade. The idea that this was a rational, careful

use of public money, he didn't manage to accomplish that at all.

Chris, thank you. I feel you'll be back here with more Kids Company

stories soon. Now, it was a trip to see

a friend that went horribly wrong. But if you live in Saudi Arabia

and you get caught with home-brewed alcohol in your car,

it's never going to end well. Last August, British oil manager

Karl Andree was sentenced to a year in jail and 378 lashes after he was

caught ferrying some homemade wine to a friend who was holding a party

elsewhere in the city of Jeddah. Though

the lashes never materialised, when the year ended Mr Andree

wasn't released - until his family launched a public campaign and

the British government intervened. The 74-year old arrived back in

the UK last week and earlier this Take me back to that moment when

you suddenly realised this is bad. Oh, God, yeah it was dreadful

actually, the shock. You just want the earth to

open up beneath you, because You know that you've been sentenced

to one year and 378 lashes. Did you think you were

going to be lashed? Well, I did, because he

spelt it out in the trial. First of all he said four months

for having it and drinking it. Eight months for giving it

as a gift. In their eyes, their perception,

giving it as a gift is worse than We use this word gift,

it means you're encouraging them to drink more and to introduce other

people to it. So in the prison every night,

were you thinking, In the early part of my time there,

yes. You kept thinking what

an idiot you were. You feel dreadfully humiliated

and angry with yourself really As a westerner living in Saudi,

do you turn a blind eye to human rights abuses, the things that

people here find appalling? You don't know why,

and that's their business. We mustn't interfere,

because that's the way they want to And you don't feel uncomfortable

about that when you're there? In fact I feel more comfortable

there than here at times. There's no muggings and things

like that. A woman can walk around

at night with no problems at all. A woman can't drive

herself anywhere though. No, they are funny about that,

but slowly that will change, They've been saying that

for a long time haven't they, They've now got women in the Shura

council, They must have voted by now

for the municipalities. It's a man's world and that's their

traditional thing, but the women are getting educated, and they are

getting to be a very powerful force. How do you feel about Saudi Arabia

now, having lived there for 25 years, then spent more than

a year in jail? I've got no hard feelings

against them. I went there in the '80s because I

wanted to send my children to And I earned the money I could

to do these things, so I've got I saw your daughter say that you're

more trouble Do you look back and think,

that was so foolish? You lost a whole year

of your life at an age when each Yes, in the sunset years,

as it were. When Hollywood star Charlie Sheen

announced he was HIV positive earlier this week on American TV,

perhaps the most shocking bit of the story was the millions of dollars

he'd paid out to so-called friends That may be explained

by the fact that an HIV diagnosis, thanks to medical advances,

is no longer the automatic death sentence it once was, and many

of us know people who've been living There are around 100,000 carrying

the virus in the UK today. The days of scary HIV and AIDS

awareness campaigns are behind us. But as the debate around Charlie

Sheen has shown, HIV still has the power to grip the public

imagination. We have, grow a long way since those campaigns. Medical

breakthroughs have made the virus more manageable and harder to pass

on. They have ushered in an age of nuance and confusion over what

exactly constitutes safe sex. I'm here to admit that I am in fact

HIV-positive. An issue brought into sharp focus

this week when Sheen appeared on US television to confirm he is

HIV-positive. Have you had unprotected sex Nani

occasion since your diagnosis? Yes, but the people I did that with or

under the care of my doctor and they weren't completely warned ahead of

time. Cue outrage from commentators across

the globe. Overlooking the medical nuance of his position. Why do

people with HIV still suffer such stigma? I think a lot of people who

are ignorant about HIV think if you have a diagnosis that is the end of

your sex life. That is not true. If you are taking HIV treatment and you

are adhering to it and taking it as you should, the treatment reduces

the amount of virus in your body to such an extent that he will not pass

on the virus to your partner. People do not understand that which is why

we have seen this outbreak is about people living with HIV who have sex.

Despite these advances there remains a huge stigma. Tom Hayes was

diagnosed as HIV positive in 2011. It was the response to his diagnosis

rather than the diagnosis itself that posed the biggest threat to his

life. I went out for a meal with friends

and I got a text message and another one and another one. Facebook and

Twitter started to blow up. There were hundreds of tweets going, Tom

as HIV and he is going around infecting people. My friends were

pushing it over social media that I was infecting people. I read the

messages. Hundreds of them. I just got more and more scared. I was

angry. I was upset. It all got to the point where I thought I was

going to take my own life. I even got to the step of getting dressed

again and was heading out of the door to go and jump off a bridge in

Birmingham city centre. Tom is clear, that that kind of abusive

behaviour spreads from -- stems from ignorance of HIV, both how we catch

it and how we treat it. This ignorance is reflected in recent

data. According to a survey carried out last year, 28% of people think

you can get HIV from kissing. 9% think you can die within a

three-year is of contracting the virus. And 17% do not know that HIV

can be passed on through sex without a condom. Worryingly, 40% of adults

diagnosed last year worked late diagnoses, meaning they were

diagnosed after they should have started life-saving treatment. They

could have passed on the infection without even knowing they were

carrying it. There are targets of 90. We want to

get 90% of people on treatment, and 90% of people with an undetectable

viral aid. Where the UK is falling behind is on getting people tested.

We need to do more. Charlie Sheen has put HIV back into the

spotlight. It may be some time before public understanding of the

virus catches up with public interest in Hollywood Park --

Hollywood's sex lives. Well Greg Louganis, the Olympic

diver who now campaigns for the rights of people with HIV and

AIDS, joins us from Los Angeles. It has been a couple of days since

Charlie Sheen's admissions. How is it playing out over there? You know

what, I don't have TV. I don't have cable. I don't watch TV and I don't

read the tabloids. I have no idea how it is playing out! Let's talk

about your reaction. How did you react when you heard the news? You

know, I feel bad for Charlie that he has been keeping this secret for

four years. I was diagnosed in 1988, six months prior to the Olympic

games. I could not come forward with my HIV status or I would not have

been able to compete. I would not have been allowed into the country.

But we have come so far in the advances of treatment options as

well as learning that if you have an undetectable viral load you are less

likely to transmit the disease. But you have to take the medication as

prescribed. That is something that is very important. For a period of

time through the 27 years that I have been HIV positive, it has not

always been easy to be compliant with my HIV medication because of

the side-effects. But now, with the medication because of the

side-effects. But now, with the medications that them in the evening

and I go about the business of leaving -- living.

I was struck by the fact that Charlie Sheen looked like he had

been forced into this. But then when he said it, he did not say he had

come here to tell you, he said he had come to admit he had HIV. Why

does he have too admit it? You know what, you know it's interesting.

Being a public person there are certain expectations and all that.

There is a difference between secrecy and privacy. Secrecy is very

harmful and damaging. And as a celebrity it is a really fine line

what is secrecy and what privacy is. Everybody is entitled to a private

life. Do you think for your campaigning, do you think it helps

that you are straight? Definitely. I think it helps the cause whether he

is straight or gay. I do not think that is so much at issue. We are so

uptight about talking about our sexuality, sex, we are also

inhibited about talking about addiction, depression, all of these

things, they seem to be taboo topics. From the interview that I

did see he did touch on those. And the doctor who is treating him said

he is more concerned... Greg Louganis, I am so sorry to

interrupt but I'm afraid we are out of time. It is the end of the

programme. Sorry about that. Thank you so much.

Time to tell you what is in the papers. The Daily Mail has the story

that we covered last night, sex, drugs and blackmail claims that

rocked the Tories. The Daily Telegraph, terrorist ringleader got

into the EU as a refugee. And the Independent, permanent members of

the UN Security Council poised to declare common war against

jihadists, says the world is preparing a grand alliance against

Isis. That is all we have time for tonight. Thanks for watching. Good