20/11/2015 Newsnight


20/11/2015

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

An awful end to an awful week - an assault on the Radisson Blu hotel

:00:00.:00:07.

They shot a white man, they slit his throat.

:00:08.:00:18.

They were jihadists, speaking both French and English.

:00:19.:00:23.

Special forces went in, the attack is over, but not the fears of a new

:00:24.:00:27.

Also tonight, we hear from the man who filmed this scene

:00:28.:00:38.

And we hear from writer Martin Amis, who, a decade ago, coined the phrase

:00:39.:00:43.

"the age of horrorism" to describe the kind of terror we're now seeing.

:00:44.:00:49.

The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, joins us to talk

:00:50.:00:51.

about his party's economics and it's reaction to events in Paris.

:00:52.:00:55.

And tonight's Artsnight comes from artist Edmund de Waal.

:00:56.:01:05.

I am fascinated about the storytelling around objects and the

:01:06.:01:11.

memories that they can hold. So my night is all about the creative

:01:12.:01:15.

power of remembering, even those memories that we might rather

:01:16.:01:16.

forget. It's been seven days now -

:01:17.:01:23.

a week of trauma in Paris, a week in which Russia conceded its

:01:24.:01:28.

plane from Sharm El Sheik was bombed And today, an assault on an upmarket

:01:29.:01:31.

hotel in the capital of Mali. Jihadi attacks on the west and

:01:32.:01:36.

on the world. If it seems like a new era

:01:37.:01:40.

of terror for us, we must remember of course that for

:01:41.:01:43.

some parts of the world more distant And we start in Bamako,

:01:44.:01:46.

where there have been many deaths - reports vary between 17 and 27 -

:01:47.:01:53.

at the Radisson Blu hotel. Gabriel Gatehouse has been

:01:54.:01:58.

following today's events there, and The attack began at about seven in

:01:59.:02:12.

the morning at the Radisson Blu hotel, frequented by foreign

:02:13.:02:16.

businessman, diplomats, supposedly one of the most secure in the

:02:17.:02:21.

region. There were two people armed and on

:02:22.:02:26.

foot. They attacked the guards and they started shooting anything that

:02:27.:02:29.

moved. Troops were on the scene quickly,

:02:30.:02:34.

along with special forces from France and the US helping scores of

:02:35.:02:39.

visitors and Hotel staff to safety. Others were stuck inside with the

:02:40.:02:45.

gunman, holed up in the upper floor. We have one of colleagues inside. He

:02:46.:02:51.

is still there. Soldiers found at least three bodies

:02:52.:02:56.

as they entered the hotel. Many more people were in desperate danger.

:02:57.:03:02.

Witnesses said the attackers were heard reciting verses from the

:03:03.:03:06.

Koran. Another said some of the gunmen were speaking English.

:03:07.:03:10.

They were shooting everywhere. They shot a white man. They slit his

:03:11.:03:14.

throat. They were shouting, Allahu Akbar. They were speaking French and

:03:15.:03:20.

English. Malian officials said they had

:03:21.:03:23.

managed to free everyone from the hotel. But towards the end of the

:03:24.:03:27.

afternoon gunmen were still holding out inside.

:03:28.:03:32.

As I speak I am standing in front of the door of the Radisson Blu hotel.

:03:33.:03:38.

There is a movement. Sorry! Everyone is moving now. Everybody is asked to

:03:39.:03:48.

leave! There are gunshots. A UN police -- peacekeeping mission

:03:49.:03:55.

is not enough to control Mali's vast open desert which has been a haven

:03:56.:04:02.

for jihadists four years. The group said it carried out this attack. It

:04:03.:04:08.

is an offshoot of Al-Qaeda. One of a number of groups that has flourished

:04:09.:04:12.

in the aftermath of the Libya conflict in 2011. After the fall of

:04:13.:04:16.

Colonel Gaddafi, weapons and fighters flooded into Mali. By

:04:17.:04:20.

spring the following year Al-Qaeda linked militants had taken control

:04:21.:04:25.

of the north of the country. In January 2013, French and regional

:04:26.:04:29.

forces intervened, pushing back the jihadist from major cities. Attacks

:04:30.:04:34.

have continued. In August of this year 17 people were killed in a

:04:35.:04:37.

similar attack on a hotel in central Mali. France today dispatched 40

:04:38.:04:43.

special police forces to Mali to join an already significant

:04:44.:04:49.

presence, around a thousand soldiers. The question is inevitably

:04:50.:04:53.

being asked, was France the target? Rather links to the attacks in

:04:54.:04:57.

Paris? But Islamic state is not thought to have a significant

:04:58.:05:01.

presence here. More influential in this part of the

:05:02.:05:09.

Sahara has been Al-Qaeda, and also a group set up by Nigerian jihadists.

:05:10.:05:17.

They had reasons to want to make quite a statement, having seen Isis

:05:18.:05:24.

dominating the headlines in recent weeks.

:05:25.:05:28.

As Europe grapples with the enormity of what happened in Paris a week

:05:29.:05:32.

ago, the world focus has been on Islamic State. But events in Bamako

:05:33.:05:36.

were a reminder that they are not the only group intent on causing

:05:37.:05:43.

death and destruction. Today's attackers underscored how easy it is

:05:44.:05:46.

for jihadists to strike at soft targets and at will.

:05:47.:05:48.

Of course, with a French connection to Mali, the events resonated

:05:49.:05:52.

in France. There was a memorial service in Paris this

:05:53.:05:54.

Alongside sadness, there is also anxiety. If you wanted evidence of

:05:55.:06:15.

it came in news from France's Producers' Association which said

:06:16.:06:20.

sales of tickets for shows in Paris are down by 80% since the attacks.

:06:21.:06:25.

A week on, it's clear that last Friday's events are still very raw.

:06:26.:06:30.

And a week on, many are only now telling

:06:31.:06:33.

One person in particular, you'll want to hear.

:06:34.:06:38.

A journalist from Le Monde, who lived behind the Bataclan

:06:39.:06:42.

Nick Hopkins is in Paris, and has been talking to him.

:06:43.:11:26.

Would you like to meet her? And if you did, what would you say to her?

:11:27.:12:03.

Daniel Psenny talking to Nick Hopkins. Remarkable story.

:12:04.:12:07.

Joining me now from outside the Bataclan theatre is the

:12:08.:12:09.

journalist Christine Ockrent, who was previously editor in chief of

:12:10.:12:12.

Good evening. We start today with Mali in our minds as well. Do you

:12:13.:12:26.

see a connection with Mali and events a week ago? Well, of course.

:12:27.:12:35.

I think everybody had that on their minds throughout the day. The fact

:12:36.:12:41.

that France sent troops to Mali, as you recall, almost two years ago,

:12:42.:12:49.

the decision of the French president to actually try and tackle the jihad

:12:50.:12:54.

in that part of Africa. And France at the time, I must say, feeling

:12:55.:13:02.

rather lonely in actually confronting that kind of danger. The

:13:03.:13:10.

question was about French nationals today caught up in that hotel. But I

:13:11.:13:17.

think that the string of events, remember the Russian plane, then

:13:18.:13:23.

there was Beirut, with almost 50 dead. Then Paris. Then Bamako. We

:13:24.:13:32.

live in this age of terror. And we in Europe, and I think it is true in

:13:33.:13:39.

Britain and on the continent, we tend to believe we live in peace

:13:40.:13:47.

forever. And it is not true. Looking at the responses, we look at

:13:48.:13:50.

interior ministers meeting today. One of the responses is clearly to

:13:51.:13:57.

rebuild borders to some extent. Not going back to where they were

:13:58.:14:02.

decades ago. Do you think this is a period of retreat for the European

:14:03.:14:05.

Union? Whether that particular project has peaked and now we go

:14:06.:14:10.

back and become a little more national again? Well, I think

:14:11.:14:18.

obviously the European Union is far from the perfect scheme. But it is

:14:19.:14:24.

still unique in history. All our democratic governments. Maybe we

:14:25.:14:33.

have not done enough in terms of information, police coordination. I

:14:34.:14:39.

think the lack of solidarity in Europe today, especially with those

:14:40.:14:47.

Eastern and central European countries, when the union was

:14:48.:14:50.

enlarged a few years ago, the fact that these countries do not feel

:14:51.:14:56.

concern, it is not only disappointment but a sign of

:14:57.:15:00.

failure. But I think the history is not to be written off altogether.

:15:01.:15:08.

And I think we have common values. I think throughout Europe people feel

:15:09.:15:12.

that what happened in Paris was also an attack on them, an attack on our

:15:13.:15:19.

freedom, our ways of living, the status of women, all but we have

:15:20.:15:26.

conquered throughout centuries. I think that remains very solid indeed

:15:27.:15:29.

between us Europeans. What about the French, as a result

:15:30.:15:40.

of what has been happening, do you think the French will feel more

:15:41.:15:47.

pan-European or more ashen stick? Will it retreat, vote for the

:15:48.:15:50.

National front, or will they take a view that we are all in this

:15:51.:15:55.

together and we must be more European rather than French? Forgive

:15:56.:16:01.

me but I think that is a very British question! I think that the

:16:02.:16:07.

French, first of all, it need to test their own national bond and I

:16:08.:16:11.

think they have with great resilience. But think again, walking

:16:12.:16:18.

through the streets of Paris, particularly in this part, use your

:16:19.:16:23.

all sorts of languages. I was in Stockholm yesterday and people would

:16:24.:16:27.

ask me about Paris and they feel concerned as well. They know it

:16:28.:16:31.

could happen anywhere in Europe, as indeed and fortunately it has

:16:32.:16:35.

happened in Britain before. The game we have those common values. I think

:16:36.:16:41.

that together -- there, again, we have common values, together we must

:16:42.:16:45.

defend them and showed that that is what we want to do. Briefly,

:16:46.:16:52.

Christine, President Hollande, it seems that he has looked the part

:16:53.:16:55.

and played this in a mature and dignified way. Is his authority

:16:56.:17:02.

enhanced, is he looking stronger, or will people say that the French

:17:03.:17:06.

political establishment failed, the security and the intelligence wasn't

:17:07.:17:11.

good enough. Is this good for the establishment or bad for the

:17:12.:17:16.

political establishment? I think it is a bit too early to say. The

:17:17.:17:22.

former president Nicolas Sarkozy was too quick to try to politicise the

:17:23.:17:28.

events a couple of days ago. Breaking the period of national

:17:29.:17:35.

mourning. Of course it is all of benefit to the far right, that's a

:17:36.:17:42.

fact. It may well show in a couple of weeks's time, when we have local

:17:43.:17:49.

elections, and I think it is not so much the establishment per se, there

:17:50.:17:58.

is great admiration in Paris and in the rest of the country for the

:17:59.:18:10.

police, and indeed all the gendarmerie, all those people,

:18:11.:18:16.

remember the Charlie Hebdo massacre, for people who have shown their

:18:17.:18:20.

skills. I think it is too early to have that kind of a political

:18:21.:18:25.

effect. Very good to talk to you, thank you very much.

:18:26.:18:29.

The Labour Party has not had an easy week framing

:18:30.:18:31.

But the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell,

:18:32.:18:34.

is hoping to move on from that - from clarifications and corrections

:18:35.:18:37.

that have been made over what is and isn't the policy on terrorism,

:18:38.:18:40.

and from exchanges of insults between senior party members.

:18:41.:18:42.

And he has made a speech on his economic policy today.

:18:43.:18:45.

"Socialism with an iPad" is the striking phrase.

:18:46.:18:47.

A very good evening. Thank you for coming in. Socialism with an iPad.

:18:48.:19:01.

That is manufactured by Apple, in China, outsourced to China. Not

:19:02.:19:05.

considered a socialist company, are you a great admirer of them? The

:19:06.:19:11.

sort of company we want to engage with and we can reform it from

:19:12.:19:16.

within in a way making sure of worker representation and democracy

:19:17.:19:19.

and investing in the future. The sort of company we want to work

:19:20.:19:25.

with, yet transform. If there was a British version of Apple, or by any

:19:26.:19:31.

chance and wanted to move to the UK, it would not be able to operate on

:19:32.:19:35.

the terms it has been operating along in California. We would

:19:36.:19:41.

develop a relationship with the company saying we want you to invest

:19:42.:19:45.

in the future coming first in the skills of your workforce, interest

:19:46.:19:51.

in the long term future, and also make sure you are part of the

:19:52.:19:54.

communities we want to make sure we are attracting the right investment.

:19:55.:20:00.

To you think that Steve jobs created Apple by doing the things he talked

:20:01.:20:04.

about, what did he invest in his vision of the long term rather than

:20:05.:20:10.

yours? It is interesting that Apple started with a grant of half $1

:20:11.:20:15.

million from the state and had a relationship with the state and

:20:16.:20:18.

developed in that way. But is the way we want to relate to businesses.

:20:19.:20:22.

I think they are increasingly looking to the long-term future and

:20:23.:20:26.

that means looking to the workforce. In your speech today you proposed

:20:27.:20:31.

and innovation policy Council with business, unions, and scientists on

:20:32.:20:36.

it. Is that how Silicon Valley created Google and the iPad and

:20:37.:20:44.

things like that? It is true that the relationship between the state

:20:45.:20:48.

and private companies in America was significant. A lot of early research

:20:49.:20:51.

work was done due to government funding and due to the government

:20:52.:20:56.

relationship. President Obama has been clear with these companies,

:20:57.:21:00.

when they want to develop in his country he will pressurise them into

:21:01.:21:04.

long-term investment. We have never had that strategy in this country.

:21:05.:21:09.

It is a brutal process that goes on in Silicon Valley. You have self

:21:10.:21:15.

employed people trying to make a life for themselves, you implied

:21:16.:21:19.

today that you don't terribly like self-employed people. You didn't

:21:20.:21:24.

hear properly. What we said was that there is fragility about

:21:25.:21:28.

self-employment. We want to give them more security. Access to

:21:29.:21:33.

maternity and paternity pay. Just because you are self employed does

:21:34.:21:37.

not mean you shouldn't have that. Would you expect them to pay the

:21:38.:21:42.

same national insurance? Their taxation would be in proportion to

:21:43.:21:46.

the benefits they receive. It is not that expensive. The basic point is

:21:47.:21:56.

that it is brutal, and the fragility that you say self-employment creates

:21:57.:22:00.

is part of the dynamism. I do not think it has to be brutal, if it is

:22:01.:22:06.

a long-term plan, your investment strategy, you work together for

:22:07.:22:09.

common objectives, you succeed and that is what happened elsewhere. The

:22:10.:22:13.

point I was making today is that we have to choose about our future

:22:14.:22:16.

now. We've got a huge financial centre here and I want us to be the

:22:17.:22:21.

technology centre of Europe as well. High skills, high pay. In the end

:22:22.:22:26.

that means high investment in our economy. Can we talk of other things

:22:27.:22:31.

that have happened? You had a bit of a bad week. It was reviewed you had

:22:32.:22:37.

been posing with a document, the Socialist network manifesto in the

:22:38.:22:42.

campaign... And it proposed disbanding MI5 and disarming the

:22:43.:22:49.

police, you would clarify know that you don't believe that? Of course

:22:50.:22:54.

not. A group of youngsters put together a state on anti-austerities

:22:55.:22:58.

which I signed -- statement. They came along and asked me to be

:22:59.:23:02.

photographed with it, I thought it was the anti-austerities statement

:23:03.:23:07.

and it wasn't. It was a mistake. I am not in favour of scrapping MI5.

:23:08.:23:13.

My brother was a police officer for 35 years, responsible for royal

:23:14.:23:17.

protection in our area. I know exactly the risks they take and the

:23:18.:23:21.

job they do, that's why I support them. Punch Mac can you tell me what

:23:22.:23:26.

you do come in the realm of how you might assess a policy, disbanding

:23:27.:23:33.

MI5 isn't bad bonkers? Yes, and that is why I would not supported. You

:23:34.:23:37.

were hanging around with people who oppose it. These were young people,

:23:38.:23:43.

flashing around ideas. I spoke at the beginning of the meeting, about

:23:44.:23:48.

austerity, signed that and left. What was very nice this week is that

:23:49.:23:52.

those young people but at a statement saying, John did not sign

:23:53.:23:56.

this and he left the meeting before we discussed it. They were not

:23:57.:24:00.

setting me up for anything. It was just a mistake. On that specific

:24:01.:24:06.

point, when you denied that you had anything to do with it, that is

:24:07.:24:10.

because you had not understood you had had something to do with it. I

:24:11.:24:15.

did not realise I had been given the wrong document. Let me say about

:24:16.:24:19.

MI5, the government came forward with proposals to grease the

:24:20.:24:25.

security services this week and I wrote to George Osborne and rows in

:24:26.:24:27.

the House of Commons and said that the Labour Party will back you all

:24:28.:24:32.

the way on this. I said well that we would back them if they reviewed the

:24:33.:24:35.

policing cuts and also if they took it outside the fiscal mandate. Large

:24:36.:24:40.

mug you can see why people might be confused, you post with those people

:24:41.:24:43.

and you wanted to win left-wing votes in the election. And of course

:24:44.:24:49.

you end up reaping the rewards... It was a mistake. These young people

:24:50.:24:54.

are having a debate about these issues is. I don't agree with them

:24:55.:24:59.

on and I did not know they had done it on that document. There have been

:25:00.:25:03.

of mistakes this week. How would you rate your party's response to these

:25:04.:25:09.

events in Paris? In the debates with hard on the floor in the House of

:25:10.:25:12.

Commons we have backed the government 100% interim is of

:25:13.:25:17.

increasing the investment in intelligence services. We have been

:25:18.:25:21.

struggling policing. To keep our communities safer cod go ahead with

:25:22.:25:24.

the policing cuts you are planning. We have said that we will support

:25:25.:25:28.

them if they review the policing cuts and take them outside their

:25:29.:25:31.

financial constraints. We have been strong on that. We've made it clear

:25:32.:25:36.

with regards to the Metropolitan Police on our streets that we

:25:37.:25:38.

support them in terms of their proportionate use of force and yes

:25:39.:25:43.

if necessary lethal force. All the way along we have clarified our

:25:44.:25:48.

position. You have had to. It's been all over the place. Errors have been

:25:49.:25:54.

made in the way that we communicate our position and we have rectified

:25:55.:25:59.

that. These things happen. The Conservative Party, a few weeks ago,

:26:00.:26:03.

were going to the same problems. We had allegations about the Prime

:26:04.:26:08.

Minister and the corpse of a dead animal, George Osborne and his

:26:09.:26:11.

bitter defeat it in the House of Lords, and they were attacked on the

:26:12.:26:14.

European issue as well. They had a rough week. Events happen in

:26:15.:26:18.

politics. We are now in a position where the public know that we stand

:26:19.:26:25.

for their safety. You stand accused sometimes of being a party under

:26:26.:26:29.

this leadership that dabbles in student politics and isn't grounded

:26:30.:26:33.

in reality. Receive posing with students holding up their manifesto,

:26:34.:26:39.

the leader of the party having to clarify his position on whether it

:26:40.:26:44.

is OK to shoot terrorists who have Kalashnikovs and are killing people.

:26:45.:26:47.

You can see why people don't yet know if this party is the government

:26:48.:26:53.

over protest. I understand that. We have been in position for seven

:26:54.:26:57.

weeks. You learn a lot in that period. What we have tried to do is

:26:58.:27:00.

make sure people are clear on where we stand. Occasionally it does go

:27:01.:27:05.

wrong and we had a rough week, the Tories had won just three weeks ago.

:27:06.:27:10.

We are coming out of that week. Learned a lot of lessons about being

:27:11.:27:13.

clear on where we stand and communicating thats in addition to

:27:14.:27:18.

that, engaging more with people and listening to people better, you

:27:19.:27:22.

learn these lessons quickly. John McDonnell, thank you. You may have

:27:23.:27:30.

seen our investigation into what one MP called institutional bullying in

:27:31.:27:35.

the youth wing of the Conservatives. The party is coming under mounting

:27:36.:27:40.

pressure to explain what it knew about Mark Clarke, who is alleged to

:27:41.:27:45.

be a percent of it, and when. Party chairman Lord Feldman said he had no

:27:46.:27:50.

complaints about Porical before August when he launched an inquiry.

:27:51.:27:55.

James Clayton tonight has evidence that senior figures knew plenty

:27:56.:27:56.

about him before that. On Wednesday this man was expelled

:27:57.:28:05.

from the party. Tonight, there is increasing pressure on senior

:28:06.:28:10.

Conservatives, the former party chairman Grant Shapps and the

:28:11.:28:12.

current party chairman Lord Feldman. But Feldman had previously

:28:13.:28:18.

said he was wholly unaware of any allegations against Clarke until

:28:19.:28:23.

August 2015. However tonight the chief of staff of his former

:28:24.:28:27.

co-chair, Grant Shapps, has been in touch, saying complaints had been

:28:28.:28:33.

made months earlier. He said "I first complained internally about

:28:34.:28:37.

Mark Clarke in 2014 when two activists got in touch."

:28:38.:29:00.

Tonight Newsnight can reveal that one party worker who helped Clarke

:29:01.:29:07.

on the election campaign told officials in writing that Clarke had

:29:08.:29:11.

been guilty of extreme aggressive behaviour verging on violence. The

:29:12.:29:17.

complaint was part of a submission to the official candidate's report

:29:18.:29:21.

on Clarke. The party worker described an incident at an internal

:29:22.:29:27.

party conference in which Clarke singled me out, started chatting at

:29:28.:29:28.

me After officials had seen the report

:29:29.:29:41.

Mark Clarke was not allowed on the party's a list of candidates

:29:42.:29:45.

although he denies ever being a bully. The disclosure that the party

:29:46.:29:48.

had written evidence of his bullying as early as 2010 means that Grant

:29:49.:29:54.

Shapps faces an awkward question. Why on earth did he give Clarke a

:29:55.:30:00.

prominent campaigning role in 2014? Last night Grant Shapps was

:30:01.:30:03.

understood to be in Sudan and could not be contacted for comment.

:30:04.:30:10.

I noticed the Daily Mail is leading on that story tomorrow.

:30:11.:30:14.

There's a lot to take in, a lot to say, even if it is hard to find new

:30:15.:30:20.

A week after the 9/11 attacks, the writer Martin Amis wrote

:30:21.:30:33.

a piece about how dramatic an event the second plane striking

:30:34.:30:36.

You could taste the "bile of its atrocious ingenuity".

:30:37.:30:41.

In the years after, he went on to write more about what

:30:42.:30:43.

He called it a civil war within Islam, and said it appeared to

:30:44.:30:48.

Well, Martin Amis joins us now, from New York.

:30:49.:30:55.

Good evening. What was your reaction to those events in Paris when you

:30:56.:31:13.

heard about them? Well, as one of the survivors said, they are the

:31:14.:31:18.

enemies of happiness. That is how it must have felt in Paris. They are

:31:19.:31:27.

very much seeing it as an attack on their youth and an attack on life

:31:28.:31:36.

itself as exemplified by them. Great grief and also this comes on top of

:31:37.:31:46.

a barrage of attacks in Baghdad, in Beirut, the Russian airliner that

:31:47.:31:55.

was shot down. It does seem as if we are going through a node of intense

:31:56.:32:00.

terrorist activity. You said that the Civil War in Islam was over

:32:01.:32:07.

because the extremists at won. I wonder whether that is really true?

:32:08.:32:17.

Well, I think that the real Civil War in Islam is between the Sunni

:32:18.:32:21.

and Shia, which has been going on for one and a half millennia. There

:32:22.:32:29.

is a battle for hearts and minds that only seems to have one voice so

:32:30.:32:38.

far. We know that it is Muslims that suffer at something like 95% more

:32:39.:32:43.

casualties in these terrorist attacks. Yet there has not been a

:32:44.:32:53.

huge groundswell of decent and sane Muslim opinion. That is for the

:32:54.:32:58.

age-old reason that the violent bear it away. The violent intimidate us,

:32:59.:33:03.

let alone them. Maybe you do not mix with enough Muslims, Mr Amis. There

:33:04.:33:09.

are plenty of moderate Muslims who condemn, who do everything they can

:33:10.:33:13.

to condemn. I wonder why you would want to draw a distinction between a

:33:14.:33:18.

moderate Muslim, who is no more a perpetrator of these horrific acts,

:33:19.:33:23.

and somebody who is not a Muslim? I am sorry, I cannot hear you. I am

:33:24.:33:28.

just wondering whether it is helpful to, if you like, single out moderate

:33:29.:33:33.

Muslims as somehow not having enough to say. They are in the same place

:33:34.:33:39.

as the rest of us, aren't they? No, this is something you cannot help

:33:40.:33:51.

but notice. I don't think... Insurgencies need the support of

:33:52.:33:57.

their communities. Are they used to. I think we should talk about the way

:33:58.:34:03.

that Islamic State differs from previous insurgencies, terrorist

:34:04.:34:06.

insurgencies. It differs in very dramatic ways. It has its own

:34:07.:34:16.

statelet, mini-state, which is -- which it is attempting to administer

:34:17.:34:26.

and run. It also offers its conscripts not only adventurer and

:34:27.:34:32.

righteousness and violence and the chants of booty and camaraderie, but

:34:33.:34:37.

it also offers, for the first time, it offers women. One of the great

:34:38.:34:45.

innovations of Islamic State is that it has somehow managed to include

:34:46.:34:49.

women and sexual relations with the rape of slave girls. And also those

:34:50.:34:58.

inexplicable conscripts from the West to go there are hoping to find

:34:59.:35:03.

a husband. Al-Qaeda never offered that kind of recreation to its foot

:35:04.:35:10.

soldiers. But Islamic State is attempting to do that. But you are

:35:11.:35:16.

not suggesting that it has, if you like, tacit support from Muslims

:35:17.:35:24.

more generally? Is that what you are suggesting? No, I am not. The

:35:25.:35:33.

support is patchy. It is weak. It is around 30% of tacit support, of not

:35:34.:35:40.

ruling out possible justifications for a suicide bombing etc. I'm sure

:35:41.:35:46.

the vast majority of Muslims are disgusted by all of this. They are

:35:47.:35:52.

silenced by fear. Which we all know about. Martin Amis, we need to leave

:35:53.:35:57.

it there. Thank you much indeed.

:35:58.:36:00.

Artist Edmund de Waal has always been obsessed with how memory

:36:01.:36:04.

So in the programme he meets the Aurora Orchestra, who are famous for

:36:05.:36:09.

And he also explores a memory that history has tried to

:36:10.:36:15.

forget - the story of the Nazi Party's obsession with porcelain.

:36:16.:36:25.

we back up all our memories and our knowledge,

:36:26.:36:29.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS