Browse content similar to 20/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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An awful end to an awful week - an assault on the Radisson Blu hotel | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
They shot a white man, they slit his throat. | :00:08. | :00:18. | |
They were jihadists, speaking both French and English. | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
Special forces went in, the attack is over, but not the fears of a new | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
Also tonight, we hear from the man who filmed this scene | :00:28. | :00:38. | |
And we hear from writer Martin Amis, who, a decade ago, coined the phrase | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
"the age of horrorism" to describe the kind of terror we're now seeing. | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, joins us to talk | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
about his party's economics and it's reaction to events in Paris. | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
And tonight's Artsnight comes from artist Edmund de Waal. | :00:56. | :01:05. | |
I am fascinated about the storytelling around objects and the | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
memories that they can hold. So my night is all about the creative | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
power of remembering, even those memories that we might rather | :01:16. | :01:16. | |
forget. It's been seven days now - | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
a week of trauma in Paris, a week in which Russia conceded its | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
plane from Sharm El Sheik was bombed And today, an assault on an upmarket | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
hotel in the capital of Mali. Jihadi attacks on the west and | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
on the world. If it seems like a new era | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
of terror for us, we must remember of course that for | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
some parts of the world more distant And we start in Bamako, | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
where there have been many deaths - reports vary between 17 and 27 - | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
at the Radisson Blu hotel. Gabriel Gatehouse has been | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
following today's events there, and The attack began at about seven in | :01:59. | :02:12. | |
the morning at the Radisson Blu hotel, frequented by foreign | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
businessman, diplomats, supposedly one of the most secure in the | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
region. There were two people armed and on | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
foot. They attacked the guards and they started shooting anything that | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
moved. Troops were on the scene quickly, | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
along with special forces from France and the US helping scores of | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
visitors and Hotel staff to safety. Others were stuck inside with the | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
gunman, holed up in the upper floor. We have one of colleagues inside. He | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
is still there. Soldiers found at least three bodies | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
as they entered the hotel. Many more people were in desperate danger. | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
Witnesses said the attackers were heard reciting verses from the | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
Koran. Another said some of the gunmen were speaking English. | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
They were shooting everywhere. They shot a white man. They slit his | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
throat. They were shouting, Allahu Akbar. They were speaking French and | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
English. Malian officials said they had | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
managed to free everyone from the hotel. But towards the end of the | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
afternoon gunmen were still holding out inside. | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
As I speak I am standing in front of the door of the Radisson Blu hotel. | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
There is a movement. Sorry! Everyone is moving now. Everybody is asked to | :03:39. | :03:48. | |
leave! There are gunshots. A UN police -- peacekeeping mission | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
is not enough to control Mali's vast open desert which has been a haven | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
for jihadists four years. The group said it carried out this attack. It | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
is an offshoot of Al-Qaeda. One of a number of groups that has flourished | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
in the aftermath of the Libya conflict in 2011. After the fall of | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
Colonel Gaddafi, weapons and fighters flooded into Mali. By | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
spring the following year Al-Qaeda linked militants had taken control | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
of the north of the country. In January 2013, French and regional | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
forces intervened, pushing back the jihadist from major cities. Attacks | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
have continued. In August of this year 17 people were killed in a | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
similar attack on a hotel in central Mali. France today dispatched 40 | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
special police forces to Mali to join an already significant | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
presence, around a thousand soldiers. The question is inevitably | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
being asked, was France the target? Rather links to the attacks in | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
Paris? But Islamic state is not thought to have a significant | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
presence here. More influential in this part of the | :05:02. | :05:09. | |
Sahara has been Al-Qaeda, and also a group set up by Nigerian jihadists. | :05:10. | :05:17. | |
They had reasons to want to make quite a statement, having seen Isis | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
dominating the headlines in recent weeks. | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
As Europe grapples with the enormity of what happened in Paris a week | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
ago, the world focus has been on Islamic State. But events in Bamako | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
were a reminder that they are not the only group intent on causing | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
death and destruction. Today's attackers underscored how easy it is | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
for jihadists to strike at soft targets and at will. | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
Of course, with a French connection to Mali, the events resonated | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
in France. There was a memorial service in Paris this | :05:53. | :05:54. | |
Alongside sadness, there is also anxiety. If you wanted evidence of | :05:55. | :06:15. | |
it came in news from France's Producers' Association which said | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
sales of tickets for shows in Paris are down by 80% since the attacks. | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
A week on, it's clear that last Friday's events are still very raw. | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
And a week on, many are only now telling | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
One person in particular, you'll want to hear. | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
A journalist from Le Monde, who lived behind the Bataclan | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
Nick Hopkins is in Paris, and has been talking to him. | :06:43. | :11:26. | |
Would you like to meet her? And if you did, what would you say to her? | :11:27. | :12:03. | |
Daniel Psenny talking to Nick Hopkins. Remarkable story. | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
Joining me now from outside the Bataclan theatre is the | :12:08. | :12:09. | |
journalist Christine Ockrent, who was previously editor in chief of | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
Good evening. We start today with Mali in our minds as well. Do you | :12:13. | :12:26. | |
see a connection with Mali and events a week ago? Well, of course. | :12:27. | :12:35. | |
I think everybody had that on their minds throughout the day. The fact | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
that France sent troops to Mali, as you recall, almost two years ago, | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
the decision of the French president to actually try and tackle the jihad | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
in that part of Africa. And France at the time, I must say, feeling | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
rather lonely in actually confronting that kind of danger. The | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
question was about French nationals today caught up in that hotel. But I | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
think that the string of events, remember the Russian plane, then | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
there was Beirut, with almost 50 dead. Then Paris. Then Bamako. We | :13:24. | :13:32. | |
live in this age of terror. And we in Europe, and I think it is true in | :13:33. | :13:39. | |
Britain and on the continent, we tend to believe we live in peace | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
forever. And it is not true. Looking at the responses, we look at | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
interior ministers meeting today. One of the responses is clearly to | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
rebuild borders to some extent. Not going back to where they were | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
decades ago. Do you think this is a period of retreat for the European | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
Union? Whether that particular project has peaked and now we go | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
back and become a little more national again? Well, I think | :14:11. | :14:18. | |
obviously the European Union is far from the perfect scheme. But it is | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
still unique in history. All our democratic governments. Maybe we | :14:25. | :14:33. | |
have not done enough in terms of information, police coordination. I | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
think the lack of solidarity in Europe today, especially with those | :14:40. | :14:47. | |
Eastern and central European countries, when the union was | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
enlarged a few years ago, the fact that these countries do not feel | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
concern, it is not only disappointment but a sign of | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
failure. But I think the history is not to be written off altogether. | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
And I think we have common values. I think throughout Europe people feel | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
that what happened in Paris was also an attack on them, an attack on our | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
freedom, our ways of living, the status of women, all but we have | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
conquered throughout centuries. I think that remains very solid indeed | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
between us Europeans. What about the French, as a result | :15:30. | :15:40. | |
of what has been happening, do you think the French will feel more | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
pan-European or more ashen stick? Will it retreat, vote for the | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
National front, or will they take a view that we are all in this | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
together and we must be more European rather than French? Forgive | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
me but I think that is a very British question! I think that the | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
French, first of all, it need to test their own national bond and I | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
think they have with great resilience. But think again, walking | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
through the streets of Paris, particularly in this part, use your | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
all sorts of languages. I was in Stockholm yesterday and people would | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
ask me about Paris and they feel concerned as well. They know it | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
could happen anywhere in Europe, as indeed and fortunately it has | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
happened in Britain before. The game we have those common values. I think | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
that together -- there, again, we have common values, together we must | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
defend them and showed that that is what we want to do. Briefly, | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
Christine, President Hollande, it seems that he has looked the part | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
and played this in a mature and dignified way. Is his authority | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
enhanced, is he looking stronger, or will people say that the French | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
political establishment failed, the security and the intelligence wasn't | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
good enough. Is this good for the establishment or bad for the | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
political establishment? I think it is a bit too early to say. The | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
former president Nicolas Sarkozy was too quick to try to politicise the | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
events a couple of days ago. Breaking the period of national | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
mourning. Of course it is all of benefit to the far right, that's a | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
fact. It may well show in a couple of weeks's time, when we have local | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
elections, and I think it is not so much the establishment per se, there | :17:50. | :17:58. | |
is great admiration in Paris and in the rest of the country for the | :17:59. | :18:10. | |
police, and indeed all the gendarmerie, all those people, | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
remember the Charlie Hebdo massacre, for people who have shown their | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
skills. I think it is too early to have that kind of a political | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
effect. Very good to talk to you, thank you very much. | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
The Labour Party has not had an easy week framing | :18:30. | :18:31. | |
But the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
is hoping to move on from that - from clarifications and corrections | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
that have been made over what is and isn't the policy on terrorism, | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
and from exchanges of insults between senior party members. | :18:41. | :18:42. | |
And he has made a speech on his economic policy today. | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
"Socialism with an iPad" is the striking phrase. | :18:46. | :18:47. | |
A very good evening. Thank you for coming in. Socialism with an iPad. | :18:48. | :19:01. | |
That is manufactured by Apple, in China, outsourced to China. Not | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
considered a socialist company, are you a great admirer of them? The | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
sort of company we want to engage with and we can reform it from | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
within in a way making sure of worker representation and democracy | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
and investing in the future. The sort of company we want to work | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
with, yet transform. If there was a British version of Apple, or by any | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
chance and wanted to move to the UK, it would not be able to operate on | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
the terms it has been operating along in California. We would | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
develop a relationship with the company saying we want you to invest | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
in the future coming first in the skills of your workforce, interest | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
in the long term future, and also make sure you are part of the | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
communities we want to make sure we are attracting the right investment. | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
To you think that Steve jobs created Apple by doing the things he talked | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
about, what did he invest in his vision of the long term rather than | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
yours? It is interesting that Apple started with a grant of half $1 | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
million from the state and had a relationship with the state and | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
developed in that way. But is the way we want to relate to businesses. | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
I think they are increasingly looking to the long-term future and | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
that means looking to the workforce. In your speech today you proposed | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
and innovation policy Council with business, unions, and scientists on | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
it. Is that how Silicon Valley created Google and the iPad and | :20:37. | :20:44. | |
things like that? It is true that the relationship between the state | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
and private companies in America was significant. A lot of early research | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
work was done due to government funding and due to the government | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
relationship. President Obama has been clear with these companies, | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
when they want to develop in his country he will pressurise them into | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
long-term investment. We have never had that strategy in this country. | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
It is a brutal process that goes on in Silicon Valley. You have self | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
employed people trying to make a life for themselves, you implied | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
today that you don't terribly like self-employed people. You didn't | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
hear properly. What we said was that there is fragility about | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
self-employment. We want to give them more security. Access to | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
maternity and paternity pay. Just because you are self employed does | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
not mean you shouldn't have that. Would you expect them to pay the | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
same national insurance? Their taxation would be in proportion to | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
the benefits they receive. It is not that expensive. The basic point is | :21:47. | :21:56. | |
that it is brutal, and the fragility that you say self-employment creates | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
is part of the dynamism. I do not think it has to be brutal, if it is | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
a long-term plan, your investment strategy, you work together for | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
common objectives, you succeed and that is what happened elsewhere. The | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
point I was making today is that we have to choose about our future | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
now. We've got a huge financial centre here and I want us to be the | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
technology centre of Europe as well. High skills, high pay. In the end | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
that means high investment in our economy. Can we talk of other things | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
that have happened? You had a bit of a bad week. It was reviewed you had | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
been posing with a document, the Socialist network manifesto in the | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
campaign... And it proposed disbanding MI5 and disarming the | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
police, you would clarify know that you don't believe that? Of course | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
not. A group of youngsters put together a state on anti-austerities | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
which I signed -- statement. They came along and asked me to be | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
photographed with it, I thought it was the anti-austerities statement | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
and it wasn't. It was a mistake. I am not in favour of scrapping MI5. | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
My brother was a police officer for 35 years, responsible for royal | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
protection in our area. I know exactly the risks they take and the | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
job they do, that's why I support them. Punch Mac can you tell me what | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
you do come in the realm of how you might assess a policy, disbanding | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
MI5 isn't bad bonkers? Yes, and that is why I would not supported. You | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
were hanging around with people who oppose it. These were young people, | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
flashing around ideas. I spoke at the beginning of the meeting, about | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
austerity, signed that and left. What was very nice this week is that | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
those young people but at a statement saying, John did not sign | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
this and he left the meeting before we discussed it. They were not | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
setting me up for anything. It was just a mistake. On that specific | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
point, when you denied that you had anything to do with it, that is | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
because you had not understood you had had something to do with it. I | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
did not realise I had been given the wrong document. Let me say about | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
MI5, the government came forward with proposals to grease the | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
security services this week and I wrote to George Osborne and rows in | :24:26. | :24:27. | |
the House of Commons and said that the Labour Party will back you all | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
the way on this. I said well that we would back them if they reviewed the | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
policing cuts and also if they took it outside the fiscal mandate. Large | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
mug you can see why people might be confused, you post with those people | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
and you wanted to win left-wing votes in the election. And of course | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
you end up reaping the rewards... It was a mistake. These young people | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
are having a debate about these issues is. I don't agree with them | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
on and I did not know they had done it on that document. There have been | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
of mistakes this week. How would you rate your party's response to these | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
events in Paris? In the debates with hard on the floor in the House of | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
Commons we have backed the government 100% interim is of | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
increasing the investment in intelligence services. We have been | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
struggling policing. To keep our communities safer cod go ahead with | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
the policing cuts you are planning. We have said that we will support | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
them if they review the policing cuts and take them outside their | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
financial constraints. We have been strong on that. We've made it clear | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
with regards to the Metropolitan Police on our streets that we | :25:37. | :25:38. | |
support them in terms of their proportionate use of force and yes | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
if necessary lethal force. All the way along we have clarified our | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
position. You have had to. It's been all over the place. Errors have been | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
made in the way that we communicate our position and we have rectified | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
that. These things happen. The Conservative Party, a few weeks ago, | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
were going to the same problems. We had allegations about the Prime | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
Minister and the corpse of a dead animal, George Osborne and his | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
bitter defeat it in the House of Lords, and they were attacked on the | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
European issue as well. They had a rough week. Events happen in | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
politics. We are now in a position where the public know that we stand | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
for their safety. You stand accused sometimes of being a party under | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
this leadership that dabbles in student politics and isn't grounded | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
in reality. Receive posing with students holding up their manifesto, | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
the leader of the party having to clarify his position on whether it | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
is OK to shoot terrorists who have Kalashnikovs and are killing people. | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
You can see why people don't yet know if this party is the government | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
over protest. I understand that. We have been in position for seven | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
weeks. You learn a lot in that period. What we have tried to do is | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
make sure people are clear on where we stand. Occasionally it does go | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
wrong and we had a rough week, the Tories had won just three weeks ago. | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
We are coming out of that week. Learned a lot of lessons about being | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
clear on where we stand and communicating thats in addition to | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
that, engaging more with people and listening to people better, you | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
learn these lessons quickly. John McDonnell, thank you. You may have | :27:23. | :27:30. | |
seen our investigation into what one MP called institutional bullying in | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
the youth wing of the Conservatives. The party is coming under mounting | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
pressure to explain what it knew about Mark Clarke, who is alleged to | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
be a percent of it, and when. Party chairman Lord Feldman said he had no | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
complaints about Porical before August when he launched an inquiry. | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
James Clayton tonight has evidence that senior figures knew plenty | :27:56. | :27:56. | |
about him before that. On Wednesday this man was expelled | :27:57. | :28:05. | |
from the party. Tonight, there is increasing pressure on senior | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
Conservatives, the former party chairman Grant Shapps and the | :28:11. | :28:12. | |
current party chairman Lord Feldman. But Feldman had previously | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
said he was wholly unaware of any allegations against Clarke until | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
August 2015. However tonight the chief of staff of his former | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
co-chair, Grant Shapps, has been in touch, saying complaints had been | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
made months earlier. He said "I first complained internally about | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
Mark Clarke in 2014 when two activists got in touch." | :28:38. | :29:00. | |
Tonight Newsnight can reveal that one party worker who helped Clarke | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
on the election campaign told officials in writing that Clarke had | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
been guilty of extreme aggressive behaviour verging on violence. The | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
complaint was part of a submission to the official candidate's report | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
on Clarke. The party worker described an incident at an internal | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
party conference in which Clarke singled me out, started chatting at | :29:28. | :29:28. | |
me After officials had seen the report | :29:29. | :29:41. | |
Mark Clarke was not allowed on the party's a list of candidates | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
although he denies ever being a bully. The disclosure that the party | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
had written evidence of his bullying as early as 2010 means that Grant | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
Shapps faces an awkward question. Why on earth did he give Clarke a | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
prominent campaigning role in 2014? Last night Grant Shapps was | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
understood to be in Sudan and could not be contacted for comment. | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
I noticed the Daily Mail is leading on that story tomorrow. | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
There's a lot to take in, a lot to say, even if it is hard to find new | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
A week after the 9/11 attacks, the writer Martin Amis wrote | :30:21. | :30:33. | |
a piece about how dramatic an event the second plane striking | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
You could taste the "bile of its atrocious ingenuity". | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
In the years after, he went on to write more about what | :30:42. | :30:43. | |
He called it a civil war within Islam, and said it appeared to | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
Well, Martin Amis joins us now, from New York. | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
Good evening. What was your reaction to those events in Paris when you | :30:56. | :31:13. | |
heard about them? Well, as one of the survivors said, they are the | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
enemies of happiness. That is how it must have felt in Paris. They are | :31:19. | :31:27. | |
very much seeing it as an attack on their youth and an attack on life | :31:28. | :31:36. | |
itself as exemplified by them. Great grief and also this comes on top of | :31:37. | :31:46. | |
a barrage of attacks in Baghdad, in Beirut, the Russian airliner that | :31:47. | :31:55. | |
was shot down. It does seem as if we are going through a node of intense | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
terrorist activity. You said that the Civil War in Islam was over | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
because the extremists at won. I wonder whether that is really true? | :32:08. | :32:17. | |
Well, I think that the real Civil War in Islam is between the Sunni | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
and Shia, which has been going on for one and a half millennia. There | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
is a battle for hearts and minds that only seems to have one voice so | :32:30. | :32:38. | |
far. We know that it is Muslims that suffer at something like 95% more | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
casualties in these terrorist attacks. Yet there has not been a | :32:44. | :32:53. | |
huge groundswell of decent and sane Muslim opinion. That is for the | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
age-old reason that the violent bear it away. The violent intimidate us, | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
let alone them. Maybe you do not mix with enough Muslims, Mr Amis. There | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
are plenty of moderate Muslims who condemn, who do everything they can | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
to condemn. I wonder why you would want to draw a distinction between a | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
moderate Muslim, who is no more a perpetrator of these horrific acts, | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
and somebody who is not a Muslim? I am sorry, I cannot hear you. I am | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
just wondering whether it is helpful to, if you like, single out moderate | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
Muslims as somehow not having enough to say. They are in the same place | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
as the rest of us, aren't they? No, this is something you cannot help | :33:40. | :33:51. | |
but notice. I don't think... Insurgencies need the support of | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
their communities. Are they used to. I think we should talk about the way | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
that Islamic State differs from previous insurgencies, terrorist | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
insurgencies. It differs in very dramatic ways. It has its own | :34:07. | :34:16. | |
statelet, mini-state, which is -- which it is attempting to administer | :34:17. | :34:26. | |
and run. It also offers its conscripts not only adventurer and | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
righteousness and violence and the chants of booty and camaraderie, but | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
it also offers, for the first time, it offers women. One of the great | :34:38. | :34:45. | |
innovations of Islamic State is that it has somehow managed to include | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
women and sexual relations with the rape of slave girls. And also those | :34:50. | :34:58. | |
inexplicable conscripts from the West to go there are hoping to find | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
a husband. Al-Qaeda never offered that kind of recreation to its foot | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
soldiers. But Islamic State is attempting to do that. But you are | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
not suggesting that it has, if you like, tacit support from Muslims | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
more generally? Is that what you are suggesting? No, I am not. The | :35:25. | :35:33. | |
support is patchy. It is weak. It is around 30% of tacit support, of not | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
ruling out possible justifications for a suicide bombing etc. I'm sure | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
the vast majority of Muslims are disgusted by all of this. They are | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
silenced by fear. Which we all know about. Martin Amis, we need to leave | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
it there. Thank you much indeed. | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
Artist Edmund de Waal has always been obsessed with how memory | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
So in the programme he meets the Aurora Orchestra, who are famous for | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
And he also explores a memory that history has tried to | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
forget - the story of the Nazi Party's obsession with porcelain. | :36:16. | :36:25. | |
we back up all our memories and our knowledge, | :36:26. | :36:29. |