19/11/2015 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Katie Razzall.

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Confirmed dead - the Belgian ringleader of the Paris attacks died


in yesterday's raid alongside Europe's first female suicide


We ask, how can Europe best protect itself?


They are pretty good at this. If this is what we were not able to


stop, I fear that the situation in other European countries may be


rather worse. The CIA's former counter-terrorism


chief gives us his take. Also tonight,


as junior doctors vote to strike, Sit down and talk about it. Do not


put patient safety at risk. It is not necessary.


I'm here to admit that I am in fact HIV-positive.


And as Charlie Sheen comes out of the HIV closet, are public attitudes


I was scared and I was angry and I was upset. I thought I was going to


take my own life. We know now that the ringleader


of the Paris attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud,


was killed in the city's Saint Denis district yesterday morning, his body


riddled with bullets and shrapnel. According to the French authorities,


before last Friday's assault, he'd been implicated in four


of six foiled attacks But how did he manage to move


around Europe, and indeed as is suspected, back


and forth from Syria, unimpeded? How were the French unaware he'd


entered the country when he was And what does that failure tell us


about the scale of the threat we face, and what


needs to be done to combat it? Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a wanted man,


now confirmed dead. Formal identification came from the human


rights of a man accused of inhuman rear -- acts. Forensics providing an


answer to one important question. Any relief in Paris tonight has been


tempered by the questions that do not have answers. How did he get


here and who else may he have brought with him? Troubling issues


not just for the French but other European intelligence agencies. This


was a man they knew, a man who had terror on his mind, a man who


appeared to move effortlessly across borders. Abu Dua is more than just a


dot on the radar. He came to the attention of the Brussels


authorities as an armed robber. Apparently radicalised in jail, last


year he appeared in gruesome IS videos filmed in Syria. Then his


associates claimed he had died. It was a lie. By January of this year


he was organising a terror cell in Belgium. It was raided by police.


Abaaoud escaped justice. He later boasted that in the aftermath a


Belgian police officer stopped him but failed to match his face with a


wanted photograph. It was assumed he went back to Syria but nobody seems


to know. Either way, until yesterday's events in Saint Denis, a


man the authorities were desperate to catch had dropped off their


radar. And as the clean-up began today, it


emerged he did not appear to be hiding. Witnesses claimed they had


seen him wandering around the neighbourhood where he eventually


died. With him, it is reported, was this woman. It is believed she blew


herself up in yesterday's raid. The performance of the security


services and intelligence gatherers, it has been very good and


very bad. It has been very good in the sense that to my understanding


none of the perpetrators have been identified in acts of terrorism in


France over the last few years, including the latest events, wore


what in the jargon were called clean skins. The bad news is the ability


of the security services to follow through their intelligence has not


been up to scratch. Officers have shown great courage in


the last week. Some experts say they will have two again because European


spy agencies are too secretive with each other. They have to learn to


share. What is needed is a kind of global


European intelligence service that would be able to gather information


everywhere and act directly. Inui agency has to be built, otherwise


one house to restore the frontiers as before. -- a new agency. You


cannot have it both ways. You cannot have Europe without frontiers and


have this sort of system based on national security.


Over the last couple of days, police in France and Belgium have conducted


hundreds of raids against potential terror suspects. In police speak,


they call it shaking the tree. Expect the same tactics in Britain


soon because the priority now is to come down hard and early. Could


someone like Abu Dua slip in and out of Britain? Our borders are


tighter. We have wall-to-wall CCTV, some cameras with facial


recognition. But nobody in counter-terrorism thinks that makes


is immune. The French are pretty good at this.


So if this is what we were not able to stop I fear that the situation in


other European countries may be rather worse. Those countries which


have proportionately large number of jihadi tourists, Belgium, Denmark,


Germany, to name a few of the most prominent ones. I understand the


German authorities are extremely nervous. The Danish authorities have


just ramped up their own terror alerts. Yes, they are wise to do


that. British police and MI5 are watching events here and quietly


reviewing border security, checking watch lists, listening to agents.


No French style state of emergency yet but the plots are coming thick


and fast. And there is a new worry. More and more of them are being


co-ordinated from Syria. Nick Hopkins on the challenge of IS


in Europe. To talk about that,


and also how to take the fight to their strongholds in Syria and Iraq,


I'm joined by Ambassador Henry Crumpton, who was one


of the leaders of the CIA's counter Thanks for joining us. What happened


in Paris looks like a massive failure of intelligence, doesn't it?


It is a horrendous tragedy and certainly there have been some


intelligence faults. But I think the larger issue is the strategic policy


failure to allow the enemy, Isis, to establish and maintain a safe haven,


a proto- state, in the heart of the Middle East. And also to maintain


micro havens in place like Molenbeek in Belgium. What can people do about


it? You led the campaign in Afghanistan in 2001. Al-Qaeda were


the main terror threat then. Is IS a different proposition? There are


some similarities. One of the key reasons for the initial success in


2001 was it was also a local victory. In that campaign you only


had 400 Americans on the ground. You had Afghan ground forces and a


superior air force that complemented what we were doing on the ground.


That principle needs to be applied when we look at Isis but Isis is


also different. They have a larger areas -- area. They have tens of


thousands of fighters. They can infiltrate into Europe and other


places more easily. They are battle hardened. They are sophisticated,


using commercial encryption, which Al-Qaeda was not using very much of


years ago. It is a tough target in many ways. It is more complex. The


US, Britain, France, others, they will need to put several thousand


troops on the ground to support and encourage local fighters,


complemented by air power. You say air will never be enough? No. Air


strikes need to complement what we're doing on the ground. Moreover


the most important ally will be local allies, Muslim allies. It has


to be their victory. To have a chance of an enduring success. And


moreover the military part of this is essential to stop the enemy from


killing us. But it buys space and time for non-military application


all power to coming afterwards to secure a village or a valley. That


is where we have failed across the board in Afghanistan, Libya are now


in Syria and Iraq. You are saying if you were running this one, you would


have boots on the ground. Do you think the CIA is arguing for that as


well? I left the CIA years ago. I am not sure what they are arguing. I


would hope they are on the ground. 50 special operations officers will


be in Syria. You will need more than that. I'm guessing between 5000 and


10,000 troops that are supporting local fighters. That is the key. It


has to be a local victory. You need Turkey, Jordan and others to support


this. It is ultimately about a local success. And right now we have a


long way to go. How did they fail last time in your view? Who fail? In


Afghanistan, for example, what was the failure? The failure was the


follow-through. After the initial success you had a degree of


stability all the way into 2004, 2005, that allowed al-Qaeda and the


Taliban to flee Pakistan, regroup, train and infiltrate back into


Afghanistan. Then you add a full-scale insurgency. Moreover, the


US shifted focus and forces to Iraq. You have to finish the fight. That


means non-military power. What kind of commitment do you think the US is


looking to in Syria? The US needs to move and move now. There has been


discussion of the need for strategic patients. I think now we need to


think about the moral imperative of attacking the enemy, attacking the


enemy now and destroying their safe haven, their command and control,


and then addressing the conditions the enemy are exploiting. That


includes some of the atrocities perpetrated by the Assad government,


supported by Iran and Hezbollah. That is part of this equation. That


is what has been feeding the Sunni fighters, including some of the Isis


fighters. We talked about intelligence are little at the


beginning. In yet the report before your interview someone was saying,


European intelligence agencies are to BT. They need a centralised one.


What do the CIA think of the European intelligence agencies?


Years ago when I was there at the reputation was uneven. Some very


good, some not so good. If you look at the lack of investment in


intelligence security, and particularly the offence among


European nations, that is a big shortfall. -- defence. The French in


particular, particularly internal security, good. There are special


operations, good. But you cannot expect predictive tactical


intelligence perfection when you have got major enemy safe havens in


the Middle East and some smaller micro havens right next door. You


cannot expect perfect intelligence. You think there is a risk from


refugees? Yes, I think that has been demonstrated by this horrible attack


in Paris. However, I don't think that we should be drawn away from


the more central issue of enemy safe haven in the heart of the Middle


East. In fact, if the US working with allies, particularly France and


others, could push back enemy safe havens next to Jordan and Turkey,


you would provide an area for refugees where they could gather and


they could be safe. The many displaced, millions of displaced


people from Syria, they could be part of the occupation force after


you push ices out. They need to be part of the solution and not a


burden. Thank you so much Ambassador Crumpton.


Almost a week after the horrors visited on their


city last Friday night, Parisians have been starting the process of


For some though, that process has yet to begin.


The relatives of those who died haven't even had the chance to


He lost his brother, Cederique, in the attack on the Bataclan


concert hall, and Lewis Goodall has been talking to him.


Cederique Mauduit was only 41 years old when he died on Friday.


He shared a deep love of music with his brother, Mathieu.


He leaves behind him a wife and two children aged seven and four.


He went to see Eagles of Death Metal, a band that he liked.


There were five friends, three escaped


and they asked him to follow, but he couldn't for some reason.


On another channel we saw that something bad was happening.


First of all I said, oh my God, this is terrible.


I thought, no, he won't be there, it is Antoine's birthday tomorrow.


And the next day at half past seven the phone rang


It was my mum saying, you know what's happening?


I said, yeah, I've seen the TV, thank you.


Unfortunately Antoine lost his dad, so his mother


and I had to tell Antoine that his dad won't be able to come


and see him and he will never see him again, but in his heart,


We have to survive for him and we have to get strong.


How do you begin to tell a child that their father has died


It's hard enough for adults to understand, let alone children.


We just said, most of them are dead, so don't worry.


The point is just to say to your kids,


Your dad is not here, I won't replace him 100%, but I'll do all


They killed 130 people, perhaps more,


they killed some people in Sudan or whatever, but guys, it's too late.


You already lost, because the whole world is against you now.


And if it is not me it's going to be somebody else and somebody else


You lost, because God is not on your side.


"The worst news for patients in the history of the NHS" -


that's how one campaign group described today's decision


The first walk out will be on December 1st,


after 98% backed industrial action on a respectable 76% turnout.


The saga over their contracts has been rumbling on for three years,


with the government presenting the changes as a push to give us


a seven-day NHS in England, and doctors' groups claiming new working


The doctors' union the BMA has been locked in an argument with the


Government about changes to how junior doctors get paid and their


working hours. We've shown you some of their stories. Without an


agreement, the Government said it would impose changes on doctors. So


the BMA balloted to strike. 6th November and I've received my ballot


from the BMA. Today egot the results, junior doctors voted


overwhelmingly for industrial action. Three days in December are


in the diary when senior doctors will have to cover. One day for


emergency care and others are full walkouts. The BMA says it wants to


restart talks but only if they are arbitrated by ACAS, the arbitration


service. The Health Secretary also says he wants talks but unarbitrated


ones first. My door has been open for talks since June and the BMA


have refused to engage at any stage with talks. We've had a thorough


independent process. We now need to discuss the outcome of that process.


I don't rule tout involvement of third parties in future, but for now


the right thing to do is to call off the strike, come and talk to the


Government about how we can work together to improve we weekend care


for patients. This is really simple maths. This can't be safe. You can't


guarantee you are not going to work more hours, if you are not going to


give us more doctors... If there are December strikes it is not clear how


public opinion will move. The NHS is already struggling. The English NHS


aims to have fewer than 5% of A patients dealt with in more than


four hours. September's figures for last year, when we didn't quite make


that target. And this year, when we missed it by a bit more. Now that's


an ill portent for this winter. That means we are in worse shape than


last year. And last December more than 10% of admissions broke the


four hour rule. So these strikes aren't ideally timed. The timing of


this strike couldn't possibly be worse. We are heading into winter.


The winter pressures on the health service are always considerable.


That's inevitable. And I fear very much indeed that people will suffer


as a result of these proposed actions. So there's public sympathy


for doctors, but there's a risk in striking. If the NHS struggles and


patients suffer over Christmas, the doctors could be blamed for it by


the public. A strike is a powerful weapon, but it's not one without


risks. Dr Johan Malawana is the Chair


of Junior Doctors' Committee at the British Medical Association, which


is organising the industrial action. You have timed this for absolute


maximum disruption when people are most likely to need the NHS? That's


not true Katie. We've been pushed into this action because of the


effects of the Government. The Government came out in July and they


have said they are going to impose a contract this August. We've been


dictated the timetable by Jeremy Hunt and this Government. But you


are having the strike? December? We've followed the legislation


that's set out and we've been going through that as we've been asked.


The fact is no junior doctor ever wants to go out an strike. But they


are. The Government pushed us into this action. Even with a mandate of


98%, we've said to the Government, please let's have proper


conciliation talks and the Government refuses. I'm confused, as


I understand it, in July in document came out by an independent body. You


haven't negotiated on it at all. You haven't spoken to the Government


since then, so why do you need to go to another third party. You might as


well start the negotiations, why go on strike? The fact is the


negotiations are being offered are not serious negotiations. Why not?


That's a question for the Government. The Government has


been... The Government say they are, of course. Well, the Government says


that and yet junior doctors they'll have read the documents that Jeremy


Hunt has set out. 98 periods of them have said the Government's position


is not actually correct. What would serious negotiations look like to


you then? We want a serious negotiation that basically takes


away the threat of imposition, a gun that's held to the head of junior


doctors, and we have a discussion about the safe working practice of


junior doctors. That's key to this. If doctors work safely they'll be


less tired and they can have less negative effects on patients. As a


result you are putting patient safety at risk. On 8th December when


it is a full strike, when there are no junior doctors in A, what's the


worst that can happen? The fact is there are doctors throughout the NHS


that will be working. Consultants and SAS doctors. But no junior


doctors. Nurses, consultants and SAS doctors. We are committed to making


sure we are going provide the safest NHS as we can in this. As we can.


What's the impact, do you think? We've given the NHS three weeks of


notice, two weeks more than we need, to because we are very clear we want


the NHS to prepare for this. We want the Government to stop going down


this pathway, stop pushing us into this industrial action. That's what


we really want. Can you guarantee that nobody will die? We are really


hoping that Jeremy Hunt... Hoping?! We hope that Jeremy Hunt takes away


the threat of imposition and takes to us seriously about a safe


contract for doctors. That's not an answer. Can you guarantee that


nobody will die on December 8th? In medicine unfortunately there are no


guarantees. There are more guarantees if all the doctors are


there. We've said all along we want safe, fair contracts. The safety of


patients in the long term is affected if Jeremy Hunt imposes this


contract. What would you say to our viewers who've routine operations


clanked for viewers who've routine operations


clanked -- planned for those days. What's your message to them? The


fact is no doctor wants to cause the disruption that we are seeing. What


we are asking the public is to support their junior doctors and


talk to the Government. Tell this Government that actually imposing an


unsafe contract on junior doctors is ultimately going to have massive


impact on both patients and the NHS. We need to actually safe to the


Government, this is unfair and this is wrong. How much free time do you


think it is reasonable for a junior doctor to have? You've been


criticised for having enough time to run a separate business, a wedding


photography business. I think I'm not going dignify that with an


answer, because the fact is that we are here too talk about... You run a


business on the side. I'm here to talk about junior doctors. Junior


doctors are a vital component of the NHS. What we want to provide...


Nobody's doubting that, absolutely not. We want to provide a safe


service for our patients. If we cannot have a safe contract that


protects our hours and stops us working in an unsafe way, that's


ultimately going to be really unfair on doctors and their patients. But


part of the argument is about the free time as you need. And if you


you as a junior doctor are able to run a separate business, people out


there might think, that's a little strange. What I did while I was


doing research in my spare time is a different matter. So you no longer


do it? What we are here to talk about is the safety of junior


doctors and patients. I think that line of questioning suggests that we


are not focusing on the issue that's absolutely at the heart of this. So


you do still run a wedding photography business? The fact is...


Yes or no? I spend all my time doing these interviews I'm afraid. So you


are not running it? What we need to talk about is junior doctors and the


safe hours that we are working. I am absolutely adamant that what we need


to do is enter serious talks through the conciliation service, with ACAS.


We've offered that with the Government and the Government


refuses to engage with that. Johan Malaarwana, thank you.


Earlier today, a minister finally answered some questions about


a very expensive story - why was so much public funding given to the


A committee of MPs quizzed Oliver Letwin,


one of two ministers who overruled officials to hand ?3 million


of public funds to the charity just days before it collapsed.


What did Oliver Letwin have to do today? First he had to stop the


whispering that this is really a story about David Cameron. There've


been a few Murrays about how he is the ultimate patron of Kids Company.


The reason it got so much money was it was his will. The second he had


to do was making it seem like Kids Company were given money on a


rational basis. How did he deal with it? He kept the Prime Minister out


of it. That's good news for him. The bad news for him is he didn't really


manage to put up a rational case for funding charity at all. For example


there was a point when he started boasting how tough he'd been on the


challenge. He gave an odd anecdote about taking a call from Alan Yentob


in his car and turning him down for money. And he said we never believed


their figures, so it didn't matter that they were wrong. Another person


said, how did you know it was good charity? He said, I visited it. But


not for more than a decade. The idea that this was a rational, careful


use of public money, he didn't manage to accomplish that at all.


Chris, thank you. I feel you'll be back here with more Kids Company


stories soon. Now, it was a trip to see


a friend that went horribly wrong. But if you live in Saudi Arabia


and you get caught with home-brewed alcohol in your car,


it's never going to end well. Last August, British oil manager


Karl Andree was sentenced to a year in jail and 378 lashes after he was


caught ferrying some homemade wine to a friend who was holding a party


elsewhere in the city of Jeddah. Though


the lashes never materialised, when the year ended Mr Andree


wasn't released - until his family launched a public campaign and


the British government intervened. The 74-year old arrived back in


the UK last week and earlier this Take me back to that moment when


you suddenly realised this is bad. Oh, God, yeah it was dreadful


actually, the shock. You just want the earth to


open up beneath you, because You know that you've been sentenced


to one year and 378 lashes. Did you think you were


going to be lashed? Well, I did, because he


spelt it out in the trial. First of all he said four months


for having it and drinking it. Eight months for giving it


as a gift. In their eyes, their perception,


giving it as a gift is worse than We use this word gift,


it means you're encouraging them to drink more and to introduce other


people to it. So in the prison every night,


were you thinking, In the early part of my time there,


yes. You kept thinking what


an idiot you were. You feel dreadfully humiliated


and angry with yourself really As a westerner living in Saudi,


do you turn a blind eye to human rights abuses, the things that


people here find appalling? You don't know why,


and that's their business. We mustn't interfere,


because that's the way they want to And you don't feel uncomfortable


about that when you're there? In fact I feel more comfortable


there than here at times. There's no muggings and things


like that. A woman can walk around


at night with no problems at all. A woman can't drive


herself anywhere though. No, they are funny about that,


but slowly that will change, They've been saying that


for a long time haven't they, They've now got women in the Shura


council, They must have voted by now


for the municipalities. It's a man's world and that's their


traditional thing, but the women are getting educated, and they are


getting to be a very powerful force. How do you feel about Saudi Arabia


now, having lived there for 25 years, then spent more than


a year in jail? I've got no hard feelings


against them. I went there in the '80s because I


wanted to send my children to And I earned the money I could


to do these things, so I've got I saw your daughter say that you're


more trouble Do you look back and think,


that was so foolish? You lost a whole year


of your life at an age when each Yes, in the sunset years,


as it were. When Hollywood star Charlie Sheen


announced he was HIV positive earlier this week on American TV,


perhaps the most shocking bit of the story was the millions of dollars


he'd paid out to so-called friends That may be explained


by the fact that an HIV diagnosis, thanks to medical advances,


is no longer the automatic death sentence it once was, and many


of us know people who've been living There are around 100,000 carrying


the virus in the UK today. The days of scary HIV and AIDS


awareness campaigns are behind us. But as the debate around Charlie


Sheen has shown, HIV still has the power to grip the public


imagination. We have, grow a long way since those campaigns. Medical


breakthroughs have made the virus more manageable and harder to pass


on. They have ushered in an age of nuance and confusion over what


exactly constitutes safe sex. I'm here to admit that I am in fact


HIV-positive. An issue brought into sharp focus


this week when Sheen appeared on US television to confirm he is


HIV-positive. Have you had unprotected sex Nani


occasion since your diagnosis? Yes, but the people I did that with or


under the care of my doctor and they weren't completely warned ahead of


time. Cue outrage from commentators across


the globe. Overlooking the medical nuance of his position. Why do


people with HIV still suffer such stigma? I think a lot of people who


are ignorant about HIV think if you have a diagnosis that is the end of


your sex life. That is not true. If you are taking HIV treatment and you


are adhering to it and taking it as you should, the treatment reduces


the amount of virus in your body to such an extent that he will not pass


on the virus to your partner. People do not understand that which is why


we have seen this outbreak is about people living with HIV who have sex.


Despite these advances there remains a huge stigma. Tom Hayes was


diagnosed as HIV positive in 2011. It was the response to his diagnosis


rather than the diagnosis itself that posed the biggest threat to his


life. I went out for a meal with friends


and I got a text message and another one and another one. Facebook and


Twitter started to blow up. There were hundreds of tweets going, Tom


as HIV and he is going around infecting people. My friends were


pushing it over social media that I was infecting people. I read the


messages. Hundreds of them. I just got more and more scared. I was


angry. I was upset. It all got to the point where I thought I was


going to take my own life. I even got to the step of getting dressed


again and was heading out of the door to go and jump off a bridge in


Birmingham city centre. Tom is clear, that that kind of abusive


behaviour spreads from -- stems from ignorance of HIV, both how we catch


it and how we treat it. This ignorance is reflected in recent


data. According to a survey carried out last year, 28% of people think


you can get HIV from kissing. 9% think you can die within a


three-year is of contracting the virus. And 17% do not know that HIV


can be passed on through sex without a condom. Worryingly, 40% of adults


diagnosed last year worked late diagnoses, meaning they were


diagnosed after they should have started life-saving treatment. They


could have passed on the infection without even knowing they were


carrying it. There are targets of 90. We want to


get 90% of people on treatment, and 90% of people with an undetectable


viral aid. Where the UK is falling behind is on getting people tested.


We need to do more. Charlie Sheen has put HIV back into the


spotlight. It may be some time before public understanding of the


virus catches up with public interest in Hollywood Park --


Hollywood's sex lives. Well Greg Louganis, the Olympic


diver who now campaigns for the rights of people with HIV and


AIDS, joins us from Los Angeles. It has been a couple of days since


Charlie Sheen's admissions. How is it playing out over there? You know


what, I don't have TV. I don't have cable. I don't watch TV and I don't


read the tabloids. I have no idea how it is playing out! Let's talk


about your reaction. How did you react when you heard the news? You


know, I feel bad for Charlie that he has been keeping this secret for


four years. I was diagnosed in 1988, six months prior to the Olympic


games. I could not come forward with my HIV status or I would not have


been able to compete. I would not have been allowed into the country.


But we have come so far in the advances of treatment options as


well as learning that if you have an undetectable viral load you are less


likely to transmit the disease. But you have to take the medication as


prescribed. That is something that is very important. For a period of


time through the 27 years that I have been HIV positive, it has not


always been easy to be compliant with my HIV medication because of


the side-effects. But now, with the medication because of the


side-effects. But now, with the medications that them in the evening


and I go about the business of leaving -- living.


I was struck by the fact that Charlie Sheen looked like he had


been forced into this. But then when he said it, he did not say he had


come here to tell you, he said he had come to admit he had HIV. Why


does he have too admit it? You know what, you know it's interesting.


Being a public person there are certain expectations and all that.


There is a difference between secrecy and privacy. Secrecy is very


harmful and damaging. And as a celebrity it is a really fine line


what is secrecy and what privacy is. Everybody is entitled to a private


life. Do you think for your campaigning, do you think it helps


that you are straight? Definitely. I think it helps the cause whether he


is straight or gay. I do not think that is so much at issue. We are so


uptight about talking about our sexuality, sex, we are also


inhibited about talking about addiction, depression, all of these


things, they seem to be taboo topics. From the interview that I


did see he did touch on those. And the doctor who is treating him said


he is more concerned... Greg Louganis, I am so sorry to


interrupt but I'm afraid we are out of time. It is the end of the


programme. Sorry about that. Thank you so much.


Time to tell you what is in the papers. The Daily Mail has the story


that we covered last night, sex, drugs and blackmail claims that


rocked the Tories. The Daily Telegraph, terrorist ringleader got


into the EU as a refugee. And the Independent, permanent members of


the UN Security Council poised to declare common war against


jihadists, says the world is preparing a grand alliance against


Isis. That is all we have time for tonight. Thanks for watching. Good


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