19/11/2015 Newsnight


19/11/2015

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Katie Razzall.


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Confirmed dead - the Belgian ringleader of the Paris attacks died

:00:16.:00:19.

in yesterday's raid alongside Europe's first female suicide

:00:20.:00:23.

We ask, how can Europe best protect itself?

:00:24.:00:40.

They are pretty good at this. If this is what we were not able to

:00:41.:00:48.

stop, I fear that the situation in other European countries may be

:00:49.:00:49.

rather worse. The CIA's former counter-terrorism

:00:50.:00:52.

chief gives us his take. Also tonight,

:00:53.:00:54.

as junior doctors vote to strike, Sit down and talk about it. Do not

:00:55.:01:05.

put patient safety at risk. It is not necessary.

:01:06.:01:07.

I'm here to admit that I am in fact HIV-positive.

:01:08.:01:16.

And as Charlie Sheen comes out of the HIV closet, are public attitudes

:01:17.:01:19.

I was scared and I was angry and I was upset. I thought I was going to

:01:20.:01:28.

take my own life. We know now that the ringleader

:01:29.:01:33.

of the Paris attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud,

:01:34.:01:37.

was killed in the city's Saint Denis district yesterday morning, his body

:01:38.:01:41.

riddled with bullets and shrapnel. According to the French authorities,

:01:42.:01:46.

before last Friday's assault, he'd been implicated in four

:01:47.:01:49.

of six foiled attacks But how did he manage to move

:01:50.:01:51.

around Europe, and indeed as is suspected, back

:01:52.:01:56.

and forth from Syria, unimpeded? How were the French unaware he'd

:01:57.:02:00.

entered the country when he was And what does that failure tell us

:02:01.:02:03.

about the scale of the threat we face, and what

:02:04.:02:06.

needs to be done to combat it? Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a wanted man,

:02:07.:02:24.

now confirmed dead. Formal identification came from the human

:02:25.:02:30.

rights of a man accused of inhuman rear -- acts. Forensics providing an

:02:31.:02:38.

answer to one important question. Any relief in Paris tonight has been

:02:39.:02:42.

tempered by the questions that do not have answers. How did he get

:02:43.:02:45.

here and who else may he have brought with him? Troubling issues

:02:46.:02:50.

not just for the French but other European intelligence agencies. This

:02:51.:02:55.

was a man they knew, a man who had terror on his mind, a man who

:02:56.:02:58.

appeared to move effortlessly across borders. Abu Dua is more than just a

:02:59.:03:06.

dot on the radar. He came to the attention of the Brussels

:03:07.:03:09.

authorities as an armed robber. Apparently radicalised in jail, last

:03:10.:03:14.

year he appeared in gruesome IS videos filmed in Syria. Then his

:03:15.:03:19.

associates claimed he had died. It was a lie. By January of this year

:03:20.:03:24.

he was organising a terror cell in Belgium. It was raided by police.

:03:25.:03:31.

Abaaoud escaped justice. He later boasted that in the aftermath a

:03:32.:03:35.

Belgian police officer stopped him but failed to match his face with a

:03:36.:03:40.

wanted photograph. It was assumed he went back to Syria but nobody seems

:03:41.:03:44.

to know. Either way, until yesterday's events in Saint Denis, a

:03:45.:03:50.

man the authorities were desperate to catch had dropped off their

:03:51.:03:54.

radar. And as the clean-up began today, it

:03:55.:03:58.

emerged he did not appear to be hiding. Witnesses claimed they had

:03:59.:04:01.

seen him wandering around the neighbourhood where he eventually

:04:02.:04:05.

died. With him, it is reported, was this woman. It is believed she blew

:04:06.:04:14.

herself up in yesterday's raid. The performance of the security

:04:15.:04:16.

services and intelligence gatherers, it has been very good and

:04:17.:04:22.

very bad. It has been very good in the sense that to my understanding

:04:23.:04:32.

none of the perpetrators have been identified in acts of terrorism in

:04:33.:04:35.

France over the last few years, including the latest events, wore

:04:36.:04:41.

what in the jargon were called clean skins. The bad news is the ability

:04:42.:04:48.

of the security services to follow through their intelligence has not

:04:49.:04:51.

been up to scratch. Officers have shown great courage in

:04:52.:04:56.

the last week. Some experts say they will have two again because European

:04:57.:04:59.

spy agencies are too secretive with each other. They have to learn to

:05:00.:05:02.

share. What is needed is a kind of global

:05:03.:05:08.

European intelligence service that would be able to gather information

:05:09.:05:16.

everywhere and act directly. Inui agency has to be built, otherwise

:05:17.:05:20.

one house to restore the frontiers as before. -- a new agency. You

:05:21.:05:26.

cannot have it both ways. You cannot have Europe without frontiers and

:05:27.:05:32.

have this sort of system based on national security.

:05:33.:05:35.

Over the last couple of days, police in France and Belgium have conducted

:05:36.:05:39.

hundreds of raids against potential terror suspects. In police speak,

:05:40.:05:46.

they call it shaking the tree. Expect the same tactics in Britain

:05:47.:05:51.

soon because the priority now is to come down hard and early. Could

:05:52.:05:57.

someone like Abu Dua slip in and out of Britain? Our borders are

:05:58.:06:04.

tighter. We have wall-to-wall CCTV, some cameras with facial

:06:05.:06:08.

recognition. But nobody in counter-terrorism thinks that makes

:06:09.:06:11.

is immune. The French are pretty good at this.

:06:12.:06:15.

So if this is what we were not able to stop I fear that the situation in

:06:16.:06:21.

other European countries may be rather worse. Those countries which

:06:22.:06:29.

have proportionately large number of jihadi tourists, Belgium, Denmark,

:06:30.:06:35.

Germany, to name a few of the most prominent ones. I understand the

:06:36.:06:40.

German authorities are extremely nervous. The Danish authorities have

:06:41.:06:44.

just ramped up their own terror alerts. Yes, they are wise to do

:06:45.:06:51.

that. British police and MI5 are watching events here and quietly

:06:52.:06:55.

reviewing border security, checking watch lists, listening to agents.

:06:56.:07:01.

No French style state of emergency yet but the plots are coming thick

:07:02.:07:06.

and fast. And there is a new worry. More and more of them are being

:07:07.:07:08.

co-ordinated from Syria. Nick Hopkins on the challenge of IS

:07:09.:07:10.

in Europe. To talk about that,

:07:11.:07:12.

and also how to take the fight to their strongholds in Syria and Iraq,

:07:13.:07:15.

I'm joined by Ambassador Henry Crumpton, who was one

:07:16.:07:17.

of the leaders of the CIA's counter Thanks for joining us. What happened

:07:18.:07:30.

in Paris looks like a massive failure of intelligence, doesn't it?

:07:31.:07:38.

It is a horrendous tragedy and certainly there have been some

:07:39.:07:41.

intelligence faults. But I think the larger issue is the strategic policy

:07:42.:07:47.

failure to allow the enemy, Isis, to establish and maintain a safe haven,

:07:48.:07:54.

a proto- state, in the heart of the Middle East. And also to maintain

:07:55.:07:59.

micro havens in place like Molenbeek in Belgium. What can people do about

:08:00.:08:06.

it? You led the campaign in Afghanistan in 2001. Al-Qaeda were

:08:07.:08:11.

the main terror threat then. Is IS a different proposition? There are

:08:12.:08:17.

some similarities. One of the key reasons for the initial success in

:08:18.:08:22.

2001 was it was also a local victory. In that campaign you only

:08:23.:08:26.

had 400 Americans on the ground. You had Afghan ground forces and a

:08:27.:08:31.

superior air force that complemented what we were doing on the ground.

:08:32.:08:36.

That principle needs to be applied when we look at Isis but Isis is

:08:37.:08:42.

also different. They have a larger areas -- area. They have tens of

:08:43.:08:47.

thousands of fighters. They can infiltrate into Europe and other

:08:48.:08:51.

places more easily. They are battle hardened. They are sophisticated,

:08:52.:08:56.

using commercial encryption, which Al-Qaeda was not using very much of

:08:57.:09:00.

years ago. It is a tough target in many ways. It is more complex. The

:09:01.:09:08.

US, Britain, France, others, they will need to put several thousand

:09:09.:09:14.

troops on the ground to support and encourage local fighters,

:09:15.:09:17.

complemented by air power. You say air will never be enough? No. Air

:09:18.:09:24.

strikes need to complement what we're doing on the ground. Moreover

:09:25.:09:29.

the most important ally will be local allies, Muslim allies. It has

:09:30.:09:35.

to be their victory. To have a chance of an enduring success. And

:09:36.:09:38.

moreover the military part of this is essential to stop the enemy from

:09:39.:09:44.

killing us. But it buys space and time for non-military application

:09:45.:09:50.

all power to coming afterwards to secure a village or a valley. That

:09:51.:09:54.

is where we have failed across the board in Afghanistan, Libya are now

:09:55.:10:00.

in Syria and Iraq. You are saying if you were running this one, you would

:10:01.:10:04.

have boots on the ground. Do you think the CIA is arguing for that as

:10:05.:10:10.

well? I left the CIA years ago. I am not sure what they are arguing. I

:10:11.:10:19.

would hope they are on the ground. 50 special operations officers will

:10:20.:10:23.

be in Syria. You will need more than that. I'm guessing between 5000 and

:10:24.:10:29.

10,000 troops that are supporting local fighters. That is the key. It

:10:30.:10:33.

has to be a local victory. You need Turkey, Jordan and others to support

:10:34.:10:39.

this. It is ultimately about a local success. And right now we have a

:10:40.:10:44.

long way to go. How did they fail last time in your view? Who fail? In

:10:45.:10:52.

Afghanistan, for example, what was the failure? The failure was the

:10:53.:11:00.

follow-through. After the initial success you had a degree of

:11:01.:11:06.

stability all the way into 2004, 2005, that allowed al-Qaeda and the

:11:07.:11:12.

Taliban to flee Pakistan, regroup, train and infiltrate back into

:11:13.:11:15.

Afghanistan. Then you add a full-scale insurgency. Moreover, the

:11:16.:11:22.

US shifted focus and forces to Iraq. You have to finish the fight. That

:11:23.:11:27.

means non-military power. What kind of commitment do you think the US is

:11:28.:11:36.

looking to in Syria? The US needs to move and move now. There has been

:11:37.:11:39.

discussion of the need for strategic patients. I think now we need to

:11:40.:11:45.

think about the moral imperative of attacking the enemy, attacking the

:11:46.:11:49.

enemy now and destroying their safe haven, their command and control,

:11:50.:11:56.

and then addressing the conditions the enemy are exploiting. That

:11:57.:12:00.

includes some of the atrocities perpetrated by the Assad government,

:12:01.:12:04.

supported by Iran and Hezbollah. That is part of this equation. That

:12:05.:12:10.

is what has been feeding the Sunni fighters, including some of the Isis

:12:11.:12:15.

fighters. We talked about intelligence are little at the

:12:16.:12:19.

beginning. In yet the report before your interview someone was saying,

:12:20.:12:26.

European intelligence agencies are to BT. They need a centralised one.

:12:27.:12:33.

What do the CIA think of the European intelligence agencies?

:12:34.:12:37.

Years ago when I was there at the reputation was uneven. Some very

:12:38.:12:41.

good, some not so good. If you look at the lack of investment in

:12:42.:12:45.

intelligence security, and particularly the offence among

:12:46.:12:49.

European nations, that is a big shortfall. -- defence. The French in

:12:50.:12:53.

particular, particularly internal security, good. There are special

:12:54.:13:00.

operations, good. But you cannot expect predictive tactical

:13:01.:13:07.

intelligence perfection when you have got major enemy safe havens in

:13:08.:13:10.

the Middle East and some smaller micro havens right next door. You

:13:11.:13:17.

cannot expect perfect intelligence. You think there is a risk from

:13:18.:13:24.

refugees? Yes, I think that has been demonstrated by this horrible attack

:13:25.:13:29.

in Paris. However, I don't think that we should be drawn away from

:13:30.:13:33.

the more central issue of enemy safe haven in the heart of the Middle

:13:34.:13:39.

East. In fact, if the US working with allies, particularly France and

:13:40.:13:44.

others, could push back enemy safe havens next to Jordan and Turkey,

:13:45.:13:48.

you would provide an area for refugees where they could gather and

:13:49.:13:53.

they could be safe. The many displaced, millions of displaced

:13:54.:13:56.

people from Syria, they could be part of the occupation force after

:13:57.:14:02.

you push ices out. They need to be part of the solution and not a

:14:03.:14:07.

burden. Thank you so much Ambassador Crumpton.

:14:08.:14:09.

Almost a week after the horrors visited on their

:14:10.:14:11.

city last Friday night, Parisians have been starting the process of

:14:12.:14:14.

For some though, that process has yet to begin.

:14:15.:14:18.

The relatives of those who died haven't even had the chance to

:14:19.:14:21.

He lost his brother, Cederique, in the attack on the Bataclan

:14:22.:14:27.

concert hall, and Lewis Goodall has been talking to him.

:14:28.:14:34.

Cederique Mauduit was only 41 years old when he died on Friday.

:14:35.:14:37.

He shared a deep love of music with his brother, Mathieu.

:14:38.:14:41.

He leaves behind him a wife and two children aged seven and four.

:14:42.:14:56.

He went to see Eagles of Death Metal, a band that he liked.

:14:57.:14:59.

There were five friends, three escaped

:15:00.:15:01.

and they asked him to follow, but he couldn't for some reason.

:15:02.:15:05.

On another channel we saw that something bad was happening.

:15:06.:15:10.

First of all I said, oh my God, this is terrible.

:15:11.:15:14.

I thought, no, he won't be there, it is Antoine's birthday tomorrow.

:15:15.:15:21.

And the next day at half past seven the phone rang

:15:22.:15:25.

It was my mum saying, you know what's happening?

:15:26.:15:39.

I said, yeah, I've seen the TV, thank you.

:15:40.:15:43.

Unfortunately Antoine lost his dad, so his mother

:15:44.:15:53.

and I had to tell Antoine that his dad won't be able to come

:15:54.:15:59.

and see him and he will never see him again, but in his heart,

:16:00.:16:05.

We have to survive for him and we have to get strong.

:16:06.:16:13.

How do you begin to tell a child that their father has died

:16:14.:16:16.

It's hard enough for adults to understand, let alone children.

:16:17.:16:30.

We just said, most of them are dead, so don't worry.

:16:31.:16:46.

The point is just to say to your kids,

:16:47.:16:51.

Your dad is not here, I won't replace him 100%, but I'll do all

:16:52.:17:01.

They killed 130 people, perhaps more,

:17:02.:17:10.

they killed some people in Sudan or whatever, but guys, it's too late.

:17:11.:17:13.

You already lost, because the whole world is against you now.

:17:14.:17:17.

And if it is not me it's going to be somebody else and somebody else

:17:18.:17:27.

You lost, because God is not on your side.

:17:28.:17:32.

"The worst news for patients in the history of the NHS" -

:17:33.:17:47.

that's how one campaign group described today's decision

:17:48.:17:49.

The first walk out will be on December 1st,

:17:50.:17:53.

after 98% backed industrial action on a respectable 76% turnout.

:17:54.:17:55.

The saga over their contracts has been rumbling on for three years,

:17:56.:17:58.

with the government presenting the changes as a push to give us

:17:59.:18:02.

a seven-day NHS in England, and doctors' groups claiming new working

:18:03.:18:04.

The doctors' union the BMA has been locked in an argument with the

:18:05.:18:19.

Government about changes to how junior doctors get paid and their

:18:20.:18:23.

working hours. We've shown you some of their stories. Without an

:18:24.:18:27.

agreement, the Government said it would impose changes on doctors. So

:18:28.:18:33.

the BMA balloted to strike. 6th November and I've received my ballot

:18:34.:18:42.

from the BMA. Today egot the results, junior doctors voted

:18:43.:18:43.

overwhelmingly for industrial action. Three days in December are

:18:44.:18:51.

in the diary when senior doctors will have to cover. One day for

:18:52.:18:57.

emergency care and others are full walkouts. The BMA says it wants to

:18:58.:19:03.

restart talks but only if they are arbitrated by ACAS, the arbitration

:19:04.:19:06.

service. The Health Secretary also says he wants talks but unarbitrated

:19:07.:19:11.

ones first. My door has been open for talks since June and the BMA

:19:12.:19:16.

have refused to engage at any stage with talks. We've had a thorough

:19:17.:19:22.

independent process. We now need to discuss the outcome of that process.

:19:23.:19:25.

I don't rule tout involvement of third parties in future, but for now

:19:26.:19:29.

the right thing to do is to call off the strike, come and talk to the

:19:30.:19:33.

Government about how we can work together to improve we weekend care

:19:34.:19:39.

for patients. This is really simple maths. This can't be safe. You can't

:19:40.:19:44.

guarantee you are not going to work more hours, if you are not going to

:19:45.:19:49.

give us more doctors... If there are December strikes it is not clear how

:19:50.:19:54.

public opinion will move. The NHS is already struggling. The English NHS

:19:55.:19:59.

aims to have fewer than 5% of A patients dealt with in more than

:20:00.:20:03.

four hours. September's figures for last year, when we didn't quite make

:20:04.:20:07.

that target. And this year, when we missed it by a bit more. Now that's

:20:08.:20:12.

an ill portent for this winter. That means we are in worse shape than

:20:13.:20:19.

last year. And last December more than 10% of admissions broke the

:20:20.:20:23.

four hour rule. So these strikes aren't ideally timed. The timing of

:20:24.:20:26.

this strike couldn't possibly be worse. We are heading into winter.

:20:27.:20:30.

The winter pressures on the health service are always considerable.

:20:31.:20:34.

That's inevitable. And I fear very much indeed that people will suffer

:20:35.:20:38.

as a result of these proposed actions. So there's public sympathy

:20:39.:20:44.

for doctors, but there's a risk in striking. If the NHS struggles and

:20:45.:20:48.

patients suffer over Christmas, the doctors could be blamed for it by

:20:49.:20:52.

the public. A strike is a powerful weapon, but it's not one without

:20:53.:20:55.

risks. Dr Johan Malawana is the Chair

:20:56.:20:58.

of Junior Doctors' Committee at the British Medical Association, which

:20:59.:21:01.

is organising the industrial action. You have timed this for absolute

:21:02.:21:09.

maximum disruption when people are most likely to need the NHS? That's

:21:10.:21:14.

not true Katie. We've been pushed into this action because of the

:21:15.:21:17.

effects of the Government. The Government came out in July and they

:21:18.:21:21.

have said they are going to impose a contract this August. We've been

:21:22.:21:26.

dictated the timetable by Jeremy Hunt and this Government. But you

:21:27.:21:30.

are having the strike? December? We've followed the legislation

:21:31.:21:33.

that's set out and we've been going through that as we've been asked.

:21:34.:21:37.

The fact is no junior doctor ever wants to go out an strike. But they

:21:38.:21:43.

are. The Government pushed us into this action. Even with a mandate of

:21:44.:21:49.

98%, we've said to the Government, please let's have proper

:21:50.:21:51.

conciliation talks and the Government refuses. I'm confused, as

:21:52.:21:55.

I understand it, in July in document came out by an independent body. You

:21:56.:21:59.

haven't negotiated on it at all. You haven't spoken to the Government

:22:00.:22:02.

since then, so why do you need to go to another third party. You might as

:22:03.:22:06.

well start the negotiations, why go on strike? The fact is the

:22:07.:22:09.

negotiations are being offered are not serious negotiations. Why not?

:22:10.:22:12.

That's a question for the Government. The Government has

:22:13.:22:15.

been... The Government say they are, of course. Well, the Government says

:22:16.:22:19.

that and yet junior doctors they'll have read the documents that Jeremy

:22:20.:22:25.

Hunt has set out. 98 periods of them have said the Government's position

:22:26.:22:30.

is not actually correct. What would serious negotiations look like to

:22:31.:22:33.

you then? We want a serious negotiation that basically takes

:22:34.:22:39.

away the threat of imposition, a gun that's held to the head of junior

:22:40.:22:45.

doctors, and we have a discussion about the safe working practice of

:22:46.:22:48.

junior doctors. That's key to this. If doctors work safely they'll be

:22:49.:22:53.

less tired and they can have less negative effects on patients. As a

:22:54.:22:55.

result you are putting patient safety at risk. On 8th December when

:22:56.:23:02.

it is a full strike, when there are no junior doctors in A, what's the

:23:03.:23:07.

worst that can happen? The fact is there are doctors throughout the NHS

:23:08.:23:12.

that will be working. Consultants and SAS doctors. But no junior

:23:13.:23:19.

doctors. Nurses, consultants and SAS doctors. We are committed to making

:23:20.:23:23.

sure we are going provide the safest NHS as we can in this. As we can.

:23:24.:23:28.

What's the impact, do you think? We've given the NHS three weeks of

:23:29.:23:31.

notice, two weeks more than we need, to because we are very clear we want

:23:32.:23:35.

the NHS to prepare for this. We want the Government to stop going down

:23:36.:23:39.

this pathway, stop pushing us into this industrial action. That's what

:23:40.:23:43.

we really want. Can you guarantee that nobody will die? We are really

:23:44.:23:48.

hoping that Jeremy Hunt... Hoping?! We hope that Jeremy Hunt takes away

:23:49.:23:53.

the threat of imposition and takes to us seriously about a safe

:23:54.:23:57.

contract for doctors. That's not an answer. Can you guarantee that

:23:58.:24:02.

nobody will die on December 8th? In medicine unfortunately there are no

:24:03.:24:04.

guarantees. There are more guarantees if all the doctors are

:24:05.:24:08.

there. We've said all along we want safe, fair contracts. The safety of

:24:09.:24:11.

patients in the long term is affected if Jeremy Hunt imposes this

:24:12.:24:17.

contract. What would you say to our viewers who've routine operations

:24:18.:24:21.

clanked for viewers who've routine operations

:24:22.:24:24.

clanked -- planned for those days. What's your message to them? The

:24:25.:24:29.

fact is no doctor wants to cause the disruption that we are seeing. What

:24:30.:24:32.

we are asking the public is to support their junior doctors and

:24:33.:24:36.

talk to the Government. Tell this Government that actually imposing an

:24:37.:24:40.

unsafe contract on junior doctors is ultimately going to have massive

:24:41.:24:44.

impact on both patients and the NHS. We need to actually safe to the

:24:45.:24:48.

Government, this is unfair and this is wrong. How much free time do you

:24:49.:24:52.

think it is reasonable for a junior doctor to have? You've been

:24:53.:24:56.

criticised for having enough time to run a separate business, a wedding

:24:57.:25:00.

photography business. I think I'm not going dignify that with an

:25:01.:25:05.

answer, because the fact is that we are here too talk about... You run a

:25:06.:25:10.

business on the side. I'm here to talk about junior doctors. Junior

:25:11.:25:14.

doctors are a vital component of the NHS. What we want to provide...

:25:15.:25:17.

Nobody's doubting that, absolutely not. We want to provide a safe

:25:18.:25:22.

service for our patients. If we cannot have a safe contract that

:25:23.:25:26.

protects our hours and stops us working in an unsafe way, that's

:25:27.:25:30.

ultimately going to be really unfair on doctors and their patients. But

:25:31.:25:33.

part of the argument is about the free time as you need. And if you

:25:34.:25:37.

you as a junior doctor are able to run a separate business, people out

:25:38.:25:40.

there might think, that's a little strange. What I did while I was

:25:41.:25:45.

doing research in my spare time is a different matter. So you no longer

:25:46.:25:50.

do it? What we are here to talk about is the safety of junior

:25:51.:25:53.

doctors and patients. I think that line of questioning suggests that we

:25:54.:25:57.

are not focusing on the issue that's absolutely at the heart of this. So

:25:58.:26:01.

you do still run a wedding photography business? The fact is...

:26:02.:26:07.

Yes or no? I spend all my time doing these interviews I'm afraid. So you

:26:08.:26:11.

are not running it? What we need to talk about is junior doctors and the

:26:12.:26:16.

safe hours that we are working. I am absolutely adamant that what we need

:26:17.:26:23.

to do is enter serious talks through the conciliation service, with ACAS.

:26:24.:26:26.

We've offered that with the Government and the Government

:26:27.:26:29.

refuses to engage with that. Johan Malaarwana, thank you.

:26:30.:26:32.

Earlier today, a minister finally answered some questions about

:26:33.:26:34.

a very expensive story - why was so much public funding given to the

:26:35.:26:37.

A committee of MPs quizzed Oliver Letwin,

:26:38.:26:40.

one of two ministers who overruled officials to hand ?3 million

:26:41.:26:42.

of public funds to the charity just days before it collapsed.

:26:43.:26:45.

What did Oliver Letwin have to do today? First he had to stop the

:26:46.:26:59.

whispering that this is really a story about David Cameron. There've

:27:00.:27:04.

been a few Murrays about how he is the ultimate patron of Kids Company.

:27:05.:27:07.

The reason it got so much money was it was his will. The second he had

:27:08.:27:14.

to do was making it seem like Kids Company were given money on a

:27:15.:27:22.

rational basis. How did he deal with it? He kept the Prime Minister out

:27:23.:27:26.

of it. That's good news for him. The bad news for him is he didn't really

:27:27.:27:32.

manage to put up a rational case for funding charity at all. For example

:27:33.:27:37.

there was a point when he started boasting how tough he'd been on the

:27:38.:27:42.

challenge. He gave an odd anecdote about taking a call from Alan Yentob

:27:43.:27:48.

in his car and turning him down for money. And he said we never believed

:27:49.:27:52.

their figures, so it didn't matter that they were wrong. Another person

:27:53.:27:57.

said, how did you know it was good charity? He said, I visited it. But

:27:58.:28:03.

not for more than a decade. The idea that this was a rational, careful

:28:04.:28:07.

use of public money, he didn't manage to accomplish that at all.

:28:08.:28:12.

Chris, thank you. I feel you'll be back here with more Kids Company

:28:13.:28:15.

stories soon. Now, it was a trip to see

:28:16.:28:18.

a friend that went horribly wrong. But if you live in Saudi Arabia

:28:19.:28:22.

and you get caught with home-brewed alcohol in your car,

:28:23.:28:25.

it's never going to end well. Last August, British oil manager

:28:26.:28:27.

Karl Andree was sentenced to a year in jail and 378 lashes after he was

:28:28.:28:30.

caught ferrying some homemade wine to a friend who was holding a party

:28:31.:28:33.

elsewhere in the city of Jeddah. Though

:28:34.:28:36.

the lashes never materialised, when the year ended Mr Andree

:28:37.:28:38.

wasn't released - until his family launched a public campaign and

:28:39.:28:41.

the British government intervened. The 74-year old arrived back in

:28:42.:28:43.

the UK last week and earlier this Take me back to that moment when

:28:44.:28:46.

you suddenly realised this is bad. Oh, God, yeah it was dreadful

:28:47.:28:54.

actually, the shock. You just want the earth to

:28:55.:28:58.

open up beneath you, because You know that you've been sentenced

:28:59.:29:01.

to one year and 378 lashes. Did you think you were

:29:02.:29:09.

going to be lashed? Well, I did, because he

:29:10.:29:13.

spelt it out in the trial. First of all he said four months

:29:14.:29:16.

for having it and drinking it. Eight months for giving it

:29:17.:29:24.

as a gift. In their eyes, their perception,

:29:25.:29:29.

giving it as a gift is worse than We use this word gift,

:29:30.:29:37.

it means you're encouraging them to drink more and to introduce other

:29:38.:29:46.

people to it. So in the prison every night,

:29:47.:29:52.

were you thinking, In the early part of my time there,

:29:53.:29:54.

yes. You kept thinking what

:29:55.:29:58.

an idiot you were. You feel dreadfully humiliated

:29:59.:30:03.

and angry with yourself really As a westerner living in Saudi,

:30:04.:30:08.

do you turn a blind eye to human rights abuses, the things that

:30:09.:30:21.

people here find appalling? You don't know why,

:30:22.:30:26.

and that's their business. We mustn't interfere,

:30:27.:30:32.

because that's the way they want to And you don't feel uncomfortable

:30:33.:30:35.

about that when you're there? In fact I feel more comfortable

:30:36.:30:40.

there than here at times. There's no muggings and things

:30:41.:30:47.

like that. A woman can walk around

:30:48.:30:52.

at night with no problems at all. A woman can't drive

:30:53.:30:55.

herself anywhere though. No, they are funny about that,

:30:56.:30:59.

but slowly that will change, They've been saying that

:31:00.:31:01.

for a long time haven't they, They've now got women in the Shura

:31:02.:31:04.

council, They must have voted by now

:31:05.:31:10.

for the municipalities. It's a man's world and that's their

:31:11.:31:17.

traditional thing, but the women are getting educated, and they are

:31:18.:31:22.

getting to be a very powerful force. How do you feel about Saudi Arabia

:31:23.:31:26.

now, having lived there for 25 years, then spent more than

:31:27.:31:29.

a year in jail? I've got no hard feelings

:31:30.:31:35.

against them. I went there in the '80s because I

:31:36.:31:39.

wanted to send my children to And I earned the money I could

:31:40.:31:47.

to do these things, so I've got I saw your daughter say that you're

:31:48.:31:55.

more trouble Do you look back and think,

:31:56.:32:03.

that was so foolish? You lost a whole year

:32:04.:32:08.

of your life at an age when each Yes, in the sunset years,

:32:09.:32:22.

as it were. When Hollywood star Charlie Sheen

:32:23.:32:30.

announced he was HIV positive earlier this week on American TV,

:32:31.:32:37.

perhaps the most shocking bit of the story was the millions of dollars

:32:38.:32:41.

he'd paid out to so-called friends That may be explained

:32:42.:32:43.

by the fact that an HIV diagnosis, thanks to medical advances,

:32:44.:32:54.

is no longer the automatic death sentence it once was, and many

:32:55.:32:56.

of us know people who've been living There are around 100,000 carrying

:32:57.:32:59.

the virus in the UK today. The days of scary HIV and AIDS

:33:00.:33:20.

awareness campaigns are behind us. But as the debate around Charlie

:33:21.:33:27.

Sheen has shown, HIV still has the power to grip the public

:33:28.:33:31.

imagination. We have, grow a long way since those campaigns. Medical

:33:32.:33:35.

breakthroughs have made the virus more manageable and harder to pass

:33:36.:33:41.

on. They have ushered in an age of nuance and confusion over what

:33:42.:33:45.

exactly constitutes safe sex. I'm here to admit that I am in fact

:33:46.:33:49.

HIV-positive. An issue brought into sharp focus

:33:50.:33:54.

this week when Sheen appeared on US television to confirm he is

:33:55.:33:58.

HIV-positive. Have you had unprotected sex Nani

:33:59.:34:02.

occasion since your diagnosis? Yes, but the people I did that with or

:34:03.:34:08.

under the care of my doctor and they weren't completely warned ahead of

:34:09.:34:11.

time. Cue outrage from commentators across

:34:12.:34:15.

the globe. Overlooking the medical nuance of his position. Why do

:34:16.:34:19.

people with HIV still suffer such stigma? I think a lot of people who

:34:20.:34:25.

are ignorant about HIV think if you have a diagnosis that is the end of

:34:26.:34:31.

your sex life. That is not true. If you are taking HIV treatment and you

:34:32.:34:35.

are adhering to it and taking it as you should, the treatment reduces

:34:36.:34:38.

the amount of virus in your body to such an extent that he will not pass

:34:39.:34:46.

on the virus to your partner. People do not understand that which is why

:34:47.:34:49.

we have seen this outbreak is about people living with HIV who have sex.

:34:50.:34:56.

Despite these advances there remains a huge stigma. Tom Hayes was

:34:57.:35:02.

diagnosed as HIV positive in 2011. It was the response to his diagnosis

:35:03.:35:06.

rather than the diagnosis itself that posed the biggest threat to his

:35:07.:35:08.

life. I went out for a meal with friends

:35:09.:35:13.

and I got a text message and another one and another one. Facebook and

:35:14.:35:17.

Twitter started to blow up. There were hundreds of tweets going, Tom

:35:18.:35:23.

as HIV and he is going around infecting people. My friends were

:35:24.:35:29.

pushing it over social media that I was infecting people. I read the

:35:30.:35:34.

messages. Hundreds of them. I just got more and more scared. I was

:35:35.:35:42.

angry. I was upset. It all got to the point where I thought I was

:35:43.:35:45.

going to take my own life. I even got to the step of getting dressed

:35:46.:35:49.

again and was heading out of the door to go and jump off a bridge in

:35:50.:35:55.

Birmingham city centre. Tom is clear, that that kind of abusive

:35:56.:36:00.

behaviour spreads from -- stems from ignorance of HIV, both how we catch

:36:01.:36:04.

it and how we treat it. This ignorance is reflected in recent

:36:05.:36:08.

data. According to a survey carried out last year, 28% of people think

:36:09.:36:14.

you can get HIV from kissing. 9% think you can die within a

:36:15.:36:18.

three-year is of contracting the virus. And 17% do not know that HIV

:36:19.:36:22.

can be passed on through sex without a condom. Worryingly, 40% of adults

:36:23.:36:29.

diagnosed last year worked late diagnoses, meaning they were

:36:30.:36:33.

diagnosed after they should have started life-saving treatment. They

:36:34.:36:36.

could have passed on the infection without even knowing they were

:36:37.:36:38.

carrying it. There are targets of 90. We want to

:36:39.:36:47.

get 90% of people on treatment, and 90% of people with an undetectable

:36:48.:36:53.

viral aid. Where the UK is falling behind is on getting people tested.

:36:54.:36:59.

We need to do more. Charlie Sheen has put HIV back into the

:37:00.:37:03.

spotlight. It may be some time before public understanding of the

:37:04.:37:07.

virus catches up with public interest in Hollywood Park --

:37:08.:37:08.

Hollywood's sex lives. Well Greg Louganis, the Olympic

:37:09.:37:10.

diver who now campaigns for the rights of people with HIV and

:37:11.:37:12.

AIDS, joins us from Los Angeles. It has been a couple of days since

:37:13.:37:25.

Charlie Sheen's admissions. How is it playing out over there? You know

:37:26.:37:35.

what, I don't have TV. I don't have cable. I don't watch TV and I don't

:37:36.:37:42.

read the tabloids. I have no idea how it is playing out! Let's talk

:37:43.:37:47.

about your reaction. How did you react when you heard the news? You

:37:48.:37:54.

know, I feel bad for Charlie that he has been keeping this secret for

:37:55.:38:01.

four years. I was diagnosed in 1988, six months prior to the Olympic

:38:02.:38:06.

games. I could not come forward with my HIV status or I would not have

:38:07.:38:10.

been able to compete. I would not have been allowed into the country.

:38:11.:38:14.

But we have come so far in the advances of treatment options as

:38:15.:38:21.

well as learning that if you have an undetectable viral load you are less

:38:22.:38:28.

likely to transmit the disease. But you have to take the medication as

:38:29.:38:32.

prescribed. That is something that is very important. For a period of

:38:33.:38:39.

time through the 27 years that I have been HIV positive, it has not

:38:40.:38:43.

always been easy to be compliant with my HIV medication because of

:38:44.:38:49.

the side-effects. But now, with the medication because of the

:38:50.:38:50.

side-effects. But now, with the medications that them in the evening

:38:51.:38:54.

and I go about the business of leaving -- living.

:38:55.:39:00.

I was struck by the fact that Charlie Sheen looked like he had

:39:01.:39:04.

been forced into this. But then when he said it, he did not say he had

:39:05.:39:08.

come here to tell you, he said he had come to admit he had HIV. Why

:39:09.:39:17.

does he have too admit it? You know what, you know it's interesting.

:39:18.:39:25.

Being a public person there are certain expectations and all that.

:39:26.:39:28.

There is a difference between secrecy and privacy. Secrecy is very

:39:29.:39:40.

harmful and damaging. And as a celebrity it is a really fine line

:39:41.:39:45.

what is secrecy and what privacy is. Everybody is entitled to a private

:39:46.:39:49.

life. Do you think for your campaigning, do you think it helps

:39:50.:39:56.

that you are straight? Definitely. I think it helps the cause whether he

:39:57.:40:01.

is straight or gay. I do not think that is so much at issue. We are so

:40:02.:40:06.

uptight about talking about our sexuality, sex, we are also

:40:07.:40:12.

inhibited about talking about addiction, depression, all of these

:40:13.:40:20.

things, they seem to be taboo topics. From the interview that I

:40:21.:40:27.

did see he did touch on those. And the doctor who is treating him said

:40:28.:40:33.

he is more concerned... Greg Louganis, I am so sorry to

:40:34.:40:37.

interrupt but I'm afraid we are out of time. It is the end of the

:40:38.:40:42.

programme. Sorry about that. Thank you so much.

:40:43.:40:44.

Time to tell you what is in the papers. The Daily Mail has the story

:40:45.:40:50.

that we covered last night, sex, drugs and blackmail claims that

:40:51.:40:54.

rocked the Tories. The Daily Telegraph, terrorist ringleader got

:40:55.:41:00.

into the EU as a refugee. And the Independent, permanent members of

:41:01.:41:03.

the UN Security Council poised to declare common war against

:41:04.:41:08.

jihadists, says the world is preparing a grand alliance against

:41:09.:41:13.

Isis. That is all we have time for tonight. Thanks for watching. Good

:41:14.:41:15.

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