03/02/2016 Newsnight

This was 2011, the gun had belonged to the deposed Colonel Gadaffi.

So what's happened to that gun, this man and to Libya?

? OK. We return to Libya, where Gabriel Gatehouse discovers a

shattered country of warring tones. This is a crucial strategic point.

That way leads south. Whoever controls this road controls a vast

chunk of southern Libya. This wrote down here takes you to Sirte, just

beyond this point here, Islamic State controlled territory.

Also tonight, the Prime Minister has had his problems on Europe.

We'll be talking to the MP who said this of the deal on offer.

Will my right my honourable friend admits to the house that he has been

reduced to polishing boots? So what does he have to say

about his own campaign? Councils are talking about ditching

the white lines. Wear white lines are removed,

drivers have to pay more attention. They are much more cautious and

aware of traffic coming towards them, and also pedestrians and

cyclists. Not because it is not important,

but because it is in such a mess, And a difficult place

for journalists to safely report. But Libya's descent is a story that

needs to be told - with the so-called Islamic State

trying to fill the power Our reporter Gabriel Gatehouse

was in the country when Gaddafi was captured four years ago,

and he was intrigued by one Passed around the jubilant crowds,

it was the deposed dictator's Now Gabriel has been back,

with producer Warwick Harrington and cameraman Mark McCauley to find

out what became of it, the people who had it

and their country. The death of Gaddafi was the end and

the beginning. This footage broadcast for the first time shows

more clearly than ever the kernel's final moments. You can see him

pleading for his life. Bloodstained fighters became instant heroes,

brandishing the dictator's golden personal. -- pistol. I was there as

they passed it among themselves. A symbol, not only of their victory,

but of their dreams for a new Libya. The brutal nature of the kernel's

killing perhaps foreshadowed what was to come. Rival governments

backed by their own militias have left a vacuum in which Islamic State

inspiration. The Golden gun was the ultimate war trophy, the symbol of

the transfer of power in the new Libya. Today, we have a bunch of

different groups vying for control here, so I want to know, where is

the pistol now? Perhaps the fate of the Golden gun can tell us something

about what has happened to Libya. This is Misrata, home to the

fighters who caught Gaddafi. Today, it is an independent citystate and

the main focus is the battle against Islamic State. They have taken

control of the neighbouring city of Sirte. Once again, Misrata is on the

front line. Are you seeing senior figures from

Iraq and Syria now coming to Sirte? On his wall, the intelligence chief

has pictures of Misrata's euros with the Gaddafi's the Golden gun. The

pistol has retained mythical status and no one seems to know where it

is. But I have three leads. These are the people I met in 2011. An

appeal showed me the gun right after the capture of Gaddafi. Mohammed, on

the right, in the baseball cap, was hailed as a rule on the day. And

Anwar Suwan, a local power broker who is the word the kernel's body in

a meat locker. -- -- restored Colonel Gaddafi's body. Our search

takes us to the outskirts of Misrata. Nabil is a car mechanic who

has joined the militia fighting Islamic State. This is Nabil? We

learned that he is in fact on his way back from the front line at this

moment so we head off to meet him. This is as far as we can safely go

without armed escort. Gabriel Gatehouse. That's you, and that is

me. For Nabil and his comrade, the fighting did not end with the

capture of Colonel Gaddafi. Islamic State is active in this area,

carrying out attacks far beyond their base. The commander tells me,

God willing, they will prevail. Where is the gun, do you now? It is

in Misrata? Who has it? The gun is there, somewhere. But he does not

know who has it. In Misrata, in a half finished building, people have

gathered for a week. These men are from Sirte and they have managed to

escape the harsh regime of Islamic State.

This man's brother was arrested on suspicion of being a spy. He was

executed in the most horrific manner.

They show me a picture on a mobile phone. It is all over Facebook, they

say. The man's name was Milad and he was recently married. He left behind

an infant son. He was left like that for three days. His friends and

relatives have similar stories. They cut my nephew's head off with a

sword, says this man. Then they displayed his corpse in public for

four days. Over the past year, foreign fighters have poured into

Sirte, they say. It is so sad. These people had

thrown off the shackles of 42 years of dictatorship and what they found

is actually something worse than that, something equally brutal as

Gaddafi's regime but much more unpredictable. When Gaddafi was

killed, he was brought to Ms router. His body was put on public display

by my old contact, Anwar Suwan. At the end of 2011, that was when I

last saw you, and you had Colonel Gaddafi's body in a fridge. I am

hoping that Anwar and his friends can help us in our search for the

men who captured Gaddafi. Some appeared. One has lost his mind,

they tell me, but he is in Misrata. That is Mohammed. He was carried

aloft by the crowd, hailed as a hero. They promised to find his

number. The last time I saw Anwar, he and his men were high on hope.

Today, Libya is falling apart, fracturing a long deep fault lines.

Islamist versus sectional arrest -- secularist, East versus West.

Into this poisonous mix, Islamic State has injected itself. It has

made its base in the neighbouring city of Sirte but its reach is

expanding, carrying out attacks and suicide bombs across Libya. Because

the international forces are fighting Daesh in Syria and Iraq,

are you worried that they will come more strongly into Libya? Yes,

because Daesh feel that they will be finished in Iraq and Syria, so the

best place to come is here. Because there is not a strong governments to

fight here. Closed to Ms router is the ancient Roman city of lettuce

Magna. It is one of the best preserved archaeological sites in

North Africa. Should Islamic State reach this far, it will surely

suffer the same fate as the Syrian city of Palmeiro. The defence of the

site is less the volunteers. UNESCO world Heritage daters will not

protected. These men stand guard with nothing but a Kalashnikov.

Ali is begging for help, any kind of help. More men, money to pay his

men, even some radios. As it is, he is on his own. We left messages for

Mohammed, our final lead. But meanwhile, the military has given us

permission to visit their forward positions. We drive south into the

desert towards Sirte. It is where Gaddafi was from, and where he was

killed. Now it is the headquarters of Islamic State in North Africa.

120 kilometres from Misrata, the last line of defence against Islamic

State. This is a crucial strategic point. This fork in the road. That

way Leeds South, so whoever controls this road controls a vast chunk of

Southern Libya. This wrote down here takes you to Sirte and beyond this

point here is Islamic state controlled territory. Islamic State

in Libya has recruited loyalists of the deposed regime. Along with

foreign fighters, they make for a formidable foe. The combined force

against Islamic State your numbers about 1400 men, less than half the

estimated numbers of state fighters. Small numbers of NATO special forces

have, quietly, been sent him to explore potential local allies.

Britain, America and others are continuing sending a bigger force,

perhaps as many as 6000 troops in eight training capacity. But with no

agreement between Libya's rival governments, their deployment has

been held up. Sooner or later, this patch of desert will likely become

the next IES battle ground. -- the next Islamic State battle ground.

And then some news. Mohammed, it is Gabriel Gatehouse from the BBC. How

are you? I don't know if you remember, but we met in Sirte when

you captured Colonel Gaddafi. You remember me? How are you? Are you

free that is Mohammed, the guy in the blue top and the baseball cap.

He is here, and he speaks good English, and we are meeting in an

hour. Mohammed hello, how are you. We take

our shoes off? Is that your Playstation? You remember this? Yes.

It was like you were the hero of the moment. Everyone was lifting you up.

When they saw the guns of Gaddafi, they think I'm killing him and I

catch him. The rebels saw the gun in Mohammed's hand and so they thought

he was the one who killed Gaddafi. But he wasn't. Amid the confusion he

had found the pistol on the ground. Mohammed became the accidental hero

of the revolution. Do you know what happened to the gun, where is this

gun, can you get it? Yes, I will call my dad. He is with him. It is

with him? Yes. I think we may have found the gun! The family are wary

of their trophy, there are still Gaddafi loyalists there. Mohammed

ask us to tell the world it wasn't he who killed Gaddafi. His face will

be associated with that golden gun. But his father wanted to remain off

camera. You have the gun with you now? OK. Can I see it? Wow! There it

is. You take... Yes it is empty. Wow! That is extraordinary. Heavy.

It is heavy. It is a present from the son of Gaddafi. A present from

his son? I think. It is a celebration of Colonel Gaddafi's

rule. Extraordinary to see this thing again after four and a half

years. I held this on the day that everyone thought the revolution was

over and Libya was starting a bright new future and here we are nearly

five years down the line and this country's still at war with ifts.

When you found this gun, did you expect things to turn out this way?

I'm really sad about that. Because when I say the Libyan killing, it is

really so bad. The capture of the golden gun once symbolised the

dawning of a new era. Gone is the wild optimism of those heady days.

The gun today is a symbol of a revolution still unfinished, a rev

fusion whose fate may yet prove decisive in the wider struggle

against Islamic State. You gave us a close look at the

mess. In broad terms what are western governments thinking about

IS and the progress they have made there? They're worried in Iraq and

Syria IS has been contained in Libya they're being allowed to

proliferate. The Pentagon said they're looking at military options

to contain Islamic State in Libya. The question is what are the

options. I reported about the small number of Special Forces, looking

for local allies on the ground. There is this mooted force in a

training capacity. Training force that sounds intriguing. Possibly a

sleight of hand. Possibly 6,000 troops, possibly Italian led with

British involvement. Yesterday at the Foreign Secretary and his French

counter part tried to pour cold water on the idea of boots on the

ground. There is a sense in western capitals that they need to do

something, but they don't know thousand do it. -- how to do it.

Even if there were a unified government in Libya to give them the

green light, there is no sense they will. There is a sense the Libyans

are not focussed on Islamic State, its not their biggest problem. So if

the Libyan authorities won't act, does the west act unilaterally with

all the problems that implies. Thank you.

Claudia Gazzini is a specialist in Libya at the NGO,

Clearly, the ideal scenario would be for the disunited Libyan fighters to

get together and unite and then we would know who we are dealing with.

What is stopping that happening at the moment? Well the country has

been you know divided politically and militarily for almost two years.

You had political factions fighting each other and local allies also

fighting each other. You have a very fragmented security scene. There was

hope in 2015 that the UN-head peace process would lead to a Un if Ied --

unified government to overcome the factors. But the peace process is

stumbling, we don't have a government in place and the reason

for this is really that there wasn't enough leg work in preparing the

security dialogue, a security dialogue of the Libyan armed groups

to back the political process. So we are left with a stumbling political

process and no nationwide conversation between the groups that

are in deep distrust to each other. This a chaps that IS would kind --

chance that IS would focus minds and they would say we should sit down

and sort this so we can take on IS? Well there are some groups in Libya

that see this as a priority. But they're local rivals, that are

working to establish their own local authority. They're the politicians

that manoeuvre also these groups that are still engaged in a battle

for control of the country. So at the moment, I think the UN and also

international partners need to do more to help those Libyans, that

tentativety would be willing to pick up the fight to talk with one voice

and that is not happening yet. Are they good people there, are there

people who the west or the UN could seriously work with? Do you know

people there who you can pick the phone up to and have a conversation

with on these kinds of matters? There are, these are people I do

talk to as well. But to give you an example, Islamic State has its main

stronghold in Sirte, but it is also seeking to expand eastwards towards

Benghazi, where there is another presence of Islamic State. So the

local commanders in Benghazi tell me they're ready to engage in military

action against Islamic State to do so they think it is strategic to

bring on board on their side those Islamist leaning groups that have an

alliance with Islamic State, because they're being targeted as being an

internal enemy by other army forces. So they're saying we want to tackle

the Islamic State, we want to open up to these other Islamist leaning

groups and bring them on our side, but we have army commanders on the

ground that are refusing to do this. Their own commanders. We have talked

about the ideal scenario, in the unideal scenario, in which Libya

remain what is it is, can you see any useful intervention that the

west brings to bear in there? Well certainly the west needs to remain

engaged on Libya, on the security threat in Libya. Needs to increase

its intelligence operations in the country. Help support local groups.

But you know push, push and rethink maybe the political process. Bombing

called for at this point? I know that is what we normally do. From

what I hear there are already targeted strikes that do happen now

and then by some anonymous source. This is a continuation of what has

been, what is being... Happening in Libya. But rather than focussing on

bombing, and just military action from the air, I think the

international community, including the US and the UK, can do wonders if

they do start engaging with military actors in the east, because your

correspondent was in Misrata and that is the main focus of attention

of international military, but there are other regions in Libya that

needs to be engaged in order to have this war. Thank you very much.

By the way, you can see more of Gabriel's report from Libya

in Our World this weekend on the BBC News Channel -

The Prime Minister has not had the warmest of receptions

We showed you the negative newspaper front pages last night.

Today, the reaction moved to the Commons.

Our political editor David Grossman has been there.

The institutions of Europe or the parliaments of

For some MPs it is that question which encapsulates the debate

Under the statue of Parliament's architect, Sir Charles Barry,

one pro-EU Conservative MP told me that the Prime Minister had not come

Naturally, I was someone who wanted to be convinced.

The question I asked myself, if this is the very best that EU

leaders can offer us, at a point when there is a very

serious risk that Britain will exit, what does it mean if we tie

ourselves in to the long-term future?

Today was the first opportunity the Commons got to question

the Prime Minister about the proposed deal and the issue

of UK Parliamentary sovereignty was raised by Boris Johnson.

He wants to know how the deal would change EU treaties.

So as to assert the sovereignty of this House of Commons

The Prime Minister's answer suggested that something along those

I am keen to do even more to put beyond doubt that this House

of Commons is sovereign and that is something we will look

to do at the same time as concluding these negotiations.

This afternoon David Cameron was asked about this

If there is more we can do to secure Britain's sovereignty

and to reform our situation in terms of the Human Rights Act,

then I will be very keen to do that.

Do you deny that ministers are working on such a proposal,

that you expect to publish alongside the final deal?

I have answered the question very clearly.

Tomorrow, backbenchers have managed to get a Commons debate

Many are particularly critical of the so-called red card proposal

where if 15 parliaments across the EU bands together,

they may be able to block the initiative.

At the moment, there isn't enough on the table and most people

The red card system, pulling together other parliaments

to stop unwanted legislation in this country, is simply not

I think the Prime Minister realises that, but perhaps has left himself

open to a chink of light, so he can pull something out

of the bag, depending on the strength of the opposition,

to the proposals later in the debate.

What would you like to get from them, given he has to pass 27

Fundamental change, which is what he promised

For many of us, that means the ability in this Parliament

and other parliaments as well, in their own respect,

to say no, to stop any unwonted EU directives.

For Sarah Woolaston at least, a guarantee that the UK Parliament

is sovereign over EU law would be very welcome.

Because if at the moment, this emergency programme relies

on 14 other members approximately agreeing to it, then realistically,

But for Ken Clarke, it's impossible to have such a guarantee

They're very keen on pressing things they know that are

You could not belong to NATO if you said that the British

parliament could unilaterally override our NATO obligations

You could not join the United Nations if you said

the British Parliament is sovereign and it must be free

And reject the terms of the Charter.

The World Trade Organisation, the IMF.

The idea that you turn up and say, of course, the government has signed

up to all this but back home, I have a parliament which can reject

any treaty obligations that the government can object

It is difficult to imagine what form of words would satisfy sceptical

Conservative MPs and the EU leaders who think the answer to Europe's

Now it is worth having a look at the newspapers, which are interesting

headlines of the daily mail a big headline, who will speak for

England? They explain by England, they mean the whole of the United

Kingdom. They're quoting I think Arthur Greenwood in 1939. They liken

the decisions we are making at this point to ones taken in 1939 when we

went to war. The Times leads on cancer, but there is a piece about

Michael Gove torn between Cameron and excite -- exit and the Guardian,

Prime Minister's hard line woos Johnson.

Let's focus on the Leave campaign now.

There have been mumblings about why there are two Leave campaigns,

And there's been dissent within one of the two,

Tonight, Lord Lawson has been parachuted in as a new chairman.

Some have called it disarray, others say it has now

Steve Baker is a Conservative MP and member of Vote Leave -

he is also chair of the Westminster group Conservatives for Britain.

In. Let's start with the question of sovereignty. As a sceptic, do you

see a way that the minister can assert the sovereignty of the

British Parliament above the treaties of the EU without us

leaving? No, it is very simple. You repeal the European communities act.

There are two ideas around. One is a constitutional court, which is

dangerous without a codified constitution. The other is

positively dangerous. The idea of passing an act of Parliament to say

we are sovereign would bring the sovereignty of Parliament within the

jurisdiction of the courts, creating at best a paradox and at worst

something dangerous. Did Phillips Hammond not say something about

this? Yes, on the 7th of June last year, he appeared on the Andrew Marr

Show and said positively that giving us a veto over EU law would be

tantamount to an exit. Roger is the same as your view? You agree to the

clerk? Yes. You cannot have it both ways. -- you agree with Ken Clarke.

Boris Johnson, the headline in the Guardian, saying that he is tilting

towards the end campaign. Is that a blow for you? At this stage, I have

said I'm happy to go into the campaign, proud of that we have.

With fewer men, a greater share of honour. But the reality is,

conservatives cannot believe everything they read in the

Guardian. You are hopeful that maybe he will come your way? I am grateful

for every Conservative MP, every parliamentarian and voter, of

whatever political party, who joins the campaign to leave. Of course I

would like more, we would like all of the members of the Cabinet. Is

Lord Lawson going to be the leader of the campaign? He was big in the

80s. Like Ross. I would like the Prime Minister to lead us out of the

EU. -- like Bros. Lord Lawson's role is to be the political colossus that

he is. He lives in France! That is a good thing for Eurosceptic. But he

is not working there, in France, although is he getting benefits?

Under the Vienna writes, he would be entitled to live there under the

rights he has acquired. The point is that he is a political colossus and

it is evident to anyone that we have work to do to reach out to the other

campaigns who wish to leave the European Union in order to

collaborate and make sure that parliamentarians feel much more

closely engaged with whatever political party is in the campaign.

And that is what Lord Lawson's jobbies. You said the vote to leave

campaign needed material changes. You were one of those who

complained. I think I have been wearing a blue helmet for the UN.

There have been changes tonight, with Dominic Cummings stepping down

from the board. That was always planned. Was it? So why would you

complaining? I was not complaining. I think the issue of why is one for

people's memoirs. It is an issue for the board and the individuals

involved. I'm sure it will be remembered differently in different

people's memoirs. Dominic and I have not always agreed but I have learned

to love him. He is a brilliant man and he will win this campaign. So it

is all sorted? There is no material change? He is still running the

campaign but not on the board? The material changes that Lord Lawson

and Lord Forsyth are joining us to bring additional political capital

which will be used. It is up to Lord Lawson on the board to decide how to

do it, and it will be used to improve our relations with the other

campaigns. You are going to merge with the other campaign, Orange you?

They are saying they wanted to join and they are going to join. As

politicians often say, there are no plans for a merger. We need to get

to the point where there is a single designated campaign. Vote Leave will

apply for designation and I am supporting Vote Leave. I believe

Vote Leave will win the referendum. What we need to do is make sure that

every single person of decency and goodwill who wishes to participate

in the referendum has their place. And that is the negotiation which

must take place. That is the accommodation which must be reached.

In a word, would you like to be a merger? I don't think it is

possible. The reason is there are genuine disagreements about strategy

and tactics. A pity we do not have time to go into those. Thank you

very much. While we might be thinking

of getting out of the EU, one country trying

to get in is Serbia. It's remarkable to think

that just 16 years ago, our relationship

was defined by this. These days, Serbia is trying to be

a model European state, and in fact it's been

commended for its approach If you look at the map,

it sits on the refugee route Thousands travel

through it on their way. They can't get through Hungary any

more, so the ones who are allowed, What do the Serbs make

of the EU's current state? The Prime Minister is in London

today and I sat down with him. I ask them how many migrants and

refugees were currently making their way through his country. -- I asked

him. In 2016, originally 1820 people a day. And it is much less than it

was before. I think that so far we have had 750,000, more than that

passing through. I can tell you I was in Brussels several times with

the European leaders, regarding this issue. And what we were dissatisfied

with was that Europe could not find a conference of solution on the

migrant crisis. -- a comprehensive solution. We were saying, whatever

you say to us, we will deliver. We were the only country that treated

those people in a very human way, showing solidarity. You did not see

tear gas or batons, or whatever I imagine in Serbia. And only in

Serbia. We accepted those people because we had such a terrible

experience 20 and 25 years ago, and we knew how those people might feel.

But on the other hand, we were also ready to be part of the European

solution, including having five or 10,000 people in our country, if

they would like to stay in our country. 5000 or 10,000, is that the

number? 15,000, it doesn't matter. We would agree. But we are a small

Serbia. If we say that, it means that Holland should say, OK, 70

80,000. There has been a harsh rhetoric, a more brutal tone coming

from some of the Western and Eastern countries. I think it has been less

cooperative. Some are saying, hang on, these guys, we let them into the

EU and when we need them, they have not been there for us. I don't think

it is all about the influx of those people. It is not about the

migration crisis. It is also about the internal political issues.

People use that. It was very easy to criticise the situation about the

migrant crisis, to get political points internally. And that is what

we do not do. I don't care about internal political points. We don't

care about that. We reacted in a very European way. We will have

elections in three months in Serbia, and I will not flatter anybody, by

saying that our country has been jeopardised by those people but

would like to settle down. No, come on. This is important because your

country did have a populist demagogue, and some. We learn

something from our own mistakes. It is the best way to learn it. From

time to time, it is good to avoid it but we could not. There is talk of

various ways that Europe could respond to this. If Germany said,

OK, enough is enough and we shut our borders, then what happens? Because

you get is backing up of refugees, passing through your country and

other countries. We cooperate very closely. And we collaborate with

Germany. Very closely. And with all the others. We will do whatever they

say to us, whatever would be the European decision. And I say to

them, if you would say one day, close the border, but I don't think

that would be the best possible solution. I don't agree with it but

I will do it if the Europeans would tell us too. You would close your

border? If they say to us that would be a good common European solution,

we would deliver on that, but we just need to hear what that

comprehensive European solution is. Thank you very much.

We've heard a lot about red lines in the last few weeks,

I know what you're thinking - where's our coverage of white lines?

They are, we are told, in danger, as councils

White lines, they always seem to have been with us, like queueing and

the EU referendum. If you like interesting facts about signage, the

white line has been on British roads for about a century. But now more

and more of them are disappearing. This was once a busy road near

popular museums in London. Today, it is still quite a busy road, albeit

with a nice, wide promenade of a pavement. The guidelines are gone.

It is an incredible transition. Many viewers will remember years ago how

much traffic was on this road and how dangerous it felt as a road. But

now, we are standing here and traffic is moving fairly slowly. It

has transformed the road. It is a space for everyone to enjoy,

families, children, walkers, cyclists. The absence of white lines

seems to wake up motorists to the idea that they are the ones

responsible for the safety of their cars, all good? Maybe not. The

problem is, to do it properly it is very expensive. The scheme cost

something like ?40 million and most local highway authorities do not

have that money. Just to peel off the white lines? It is more than

that, broadening pavements, changing the signing so that there is less

clutter, and the pavement texture is better. It costs a lot of money. And

often there are few objections. Some of them with good reason. People

like the RNIB, who look after blind and partially sighted people, they

do not like pavements like this. There is not a curb, so if you are

blind or partially sighted, it is easy to walk into the road. You and

I are safe drivers but some of them, really... If only this fellow was

driving on one of the roads in London on Norfolk where white lines

have not been repainted since resurfacing. In East Anglia, they

are predicting personal injury accidents could fall by a fifth.

This comes after the Dutch pioneered shared space on roads, challenging

the presumption of some drivers that they had priority. It works well in

those small, medieval Dutch villages where you have more cyclists than

cars so you can take away the lines on pavements and slows down. That is

pretty different to the bullring in Birmingham or London or streets

around Glasgow or Edinburgh, where there is more traffic, and the

traffic goes faster. We are not really comparing like with like. It

is not about abandoning rules, it is a different way of enforcing them.

In an age of reduced funding for police and reduce police

enforcement, we need more innovative measures that will make drivers

drive slower. But are we nearly losing road markings or great

signifiers of cultural importance? Perhaps they are really lines in the

sand. We leave you with the latest piece

to camera from Youtube travel