06/04/2016 Newsnight


06/04/2016

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A referendum vote that goes against the EU.

:00:07.:00:08.

What message are European voters trying to send?

:00:09.:00:15.

It's was not a vote about Dutch membership, and two thirds

:00:16.:00:18.

of the country stayed away from the polls,

:00:19.:00:20.

but the No campaign here will still take

:00:21.:00:22.

Should we have hope or fear for the future of the British steel

:00:23.:00:30.

industry, with Sanjeev Gupta the front runner to buy it?

:00:31.:00:37.

It was done on the back of an envelope because we didn't have

:00:38.:00:43.

access. It started a week ago, so we don't have any access to the data.

:00:44.:00:48.

So you have done a back of the envelope calculation? Yes.

:00:49.:00:49.

Also tonight, how to buy a Kalashnikov on Facebook.

:00:50.:00:51.

We found a number of portable defence systems, shoulder fired

:00:52.:01:03.

anti-aircraft systems. These are basically a threat to civilian

:01:04.:01:04.

aviation. And I'll show you mine,

:01:05.:01:06.

if you'll show me yours. We'll discuss how far

:01:07.:01:08.

is transparency the answer to the questions raised

:01:09.:01:13.

by the Panama Papers. Well, a blow to the EU

:01:14.:01:22.

tonight in a public vote. A Dutch vote on the EU

:01:23.:01:27.

treaty with Ukraine. Normally it wouldn't

:01:28.:01:35.

come to a referendum, of signatures can get

:01:36.:01:37.

it on to the ballot, And according to exit polls

:01:38.:01:40.

in the vote today, the Dutch have rejected that Ukraine Association

:01:41.:01:44.

Agreement. But one can only suspect that wasn't

:01:45.:01:47.

really what the voters It's being seen by those who want

:01:48.:01:50.

Brexit as a key test of public Nigel Farage has been out

:01:51.:01:54.

in the Netherlands campaigning. How does it play into the debate

:01:55.:02:02.

around our referendum? Alex Forsyth is our correspondent

:02:03.:02:06.

in Amsterdam and joins us now. Start by giving us the school, the

:02:07.:02:16.

margin of victory for the rejection of people and the turnout. The

:02:17.:02:20.

results are still coming in but we've had the exit poll and as the

:02:21.:02:23.

results have come in they seem to confirm it, a turnout of 32% which

:02:24.:02:29.

is significant because the threshold required to make the referendum

:02:30.:02:34.

result valid was 30%. It has just snuck over that. In terms of the

:02:35.:02:39.

result, the exit poll suggests 64% of voters who went to the polls have

:02:40.:02:43.

rejected the idea of ratifying the deal between the EU and the Ukraine.

:02:44.:02:50.

What that means in reality is still questionable because 27 other

:02:51.:02:53.

countries in the EU have backed the deal, the European Parliament has

:02:54.:02:58.

backed it. Now the Dutch Foreign Minister Mark Rutte has said that we

:02:59.:03:02.

will have to look at this again, that the no vote cannot be ignored.

:03:03.:03:08.

He will talk to the cabinet in the Netherlands and to the EU and decide

:03:09.:03:12.

how to progress without -- the Dutch Prime Minister. Although this was

:03:13.:03:17.

ostensibly about the Ukraine deal with the EU, there was a bigger

:03:18.:03:22.

issue, a test of your scepticism in the Netherlands because this was

:03:23.:03:26.

triggered by the Eurosceptic campaign, using a new Dutch law

:03:27.:03:29.

which was designed to promote democracy to get a petition

:03:30.:03:33.

signatures to get the referendum to happen and they say that the result

:03:34.:03:37.

is a victory showing that people are frustrated about the EU and they are

:03:38.:03:43.

not prepared to take it any more. Commenting on the Brexit debate here

:03:44.:03:46.

and how much the Dutch Eurosceptics are aware of what's going on here

:03:47.:03:50.

and how they are timing this against British events. And by being Anglo

:03:51.:03:54.

centric in thinking that way? Is the British vote playing a role in Dutch

:03:55.:04:01.

politics? Undoubtedly it is, I was at the campaign event in a town

:04:02.:04:07.

north of Amsterdam a couple of days ago and Nigel Farage was there. It

:04:08.:04:11.

was a Eurosceptic rally, organised by the people behind the reference

:04:12.:04:16.

campaign but he was greeted with a very warm reception, people knew who

:04:17.:04:20.

he was and the sentiment was that, we want a node in the referendum,

:04:21.:04:24.

which they see as giving a bloody nose to Brussels, as giving a signal

:04:25.:04:30.

to the UK that you can do the same -- a no vote. As you might expect,

:04:31.:04:37.

the Brexit camps in the UK have left on the result of ready saying that

:04:38.:04:41.

it shows that we aren't alone in our concerns about the EU in terms of

:04:42.:04:46.

its expansion and what they see as its democratic shortcomings. By

:04:47.:04:50.

trying to use this result to embolden the Eurosceptic campaign

:04:51.:04:54.

and it might do that but this is a singular result, on paper to do with

:04:55.:04:59.

the Ukraine. Although it plays into the Eurosceptic argument and will be

:05:00.:05:02.

seen as a boost to the Brexit campaign in the UK, one might argue

:05:03.:05:06.

that its impact on the public could be fairly limited in Britain. Thank

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you for joining us. Daniel Hannan, the prominent

:05:08.:05:09.

eurosceptic, is on the And Michael van Gaal ten is funded

:05:10.:05:26.

at yes campaign joins us -- Michael van Halten. What do you make of

:05:27.:05:30.

this? In every referendum, people have voted against Brussels, we had

:05:31.:05:34.

one in Greece and in Denmark and now the Netherlands. People have had

:05:35.:05:37.

enough of a remote and self-serving bureaucracy. A funny question but

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wiped wouldn't people vote -- why wouldn't people vote against

:05:44.:05:49.

muscles, given that this is an issue that people don't know much about?

:05:50.:05:54.

-- against Brussels. Isn't it telling how you put the question? It

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assumes that the European system lacks legitimacy and public support

:05:59.:06:03.

and that of course we would want to kick it. Like in a by-election, the

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incumbent government always loses them because people want to keep

:06:09.:06:11.

them on their toes. But the idea of Europe is that we would all get

:06:12.:06:16.

along better, that the Schengen group would soothe those animal

:06:17.:06:19.

cities but in reality, Europe isn't working. I don't think that this

:06:20.:06:23.

vote was really about the Ukraine agreement, which I voted for in the

:06:24.:06:28.

European Parliament. On almost every metric the European Union has failed

:06:29.:06:32.

to deliver what it promised, greater prosperity and national cohesion.

:06:33.:06:37.

You have to agree that every time the voters are given a chance to

:06:38.:06:41.

vote on anything European, they vote against it, don't they? Absolutely,

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there is a big problem for Brussels and the EU in terms of how we

:06:50.:06:53.

communicate with citizens on European issues. It has to be said

:06:54.:06:58.

that in this election, the referendum today, only one third of

:06:59.:07:03.

voters took the trouble to vote and actually much of the debates during

:07:04.:07:06.

the referendum campaign has been about the referendum law itself.

:07:07.:07:10.

This was the first time that we have had a referendum under this new law

:07:11.:07:14.

and two thirds of voters stayed at home. Many people who support the

:07:15.:07:19.

agreement stayed at home. The discussion will be about the EU, but

:07:20.:07:24.

also about how we conduct politics. A lot of people supporting Britain

:07:25.:07:29.

staying in the EU will say, goodness gracious, basically, if the Dutch,

:07:30.:07:32.

one of the original six members, one of the original three, the Benelux

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concept, the core of Europe, if they are showing such satisfaction with

:07:38.:07:42.

the project, this is really a very serious problem -- such

:07:43.:07:49.

dissatisfaction. It is clear that it is a problem for Dutch politics and

:07:50.:07:55.

politics in the EU. Issues that ten, 20 years ago could be taken behind

:07:56.:07:59.

closed doors and were self-evident now being questioned by people and

:08:00.:08:03.

that is a healthy process, but one that politics has not become

:08:04.:08:06.

accustomed to. Politicians do not know how to discuss and sell these

:08:07.:08:10.

issues to the voters and that is something we have to address. Can

:08:11.:08:17.

this be seen as a kind of anti-elite vote, as much as an anti-European

:08:18.:08:21.

vote? Everywhere you see voters, like in the US, choosing outsiders,

:08:22.:08:27.

and there is a bit of that? There is an element of that, people look at

:08:28.:08:32.

the Brussels project, they see politicians and the big banks and

:08:33.:08:36.

the big arms companies and the establishment and a feud diplomats

:08:37.:08:39.

and civil servants and they say, what's in it for everybody else, a

:08:40.:08:44.

valid question to ask. We have democracy because we have got away

:08:45.:08:48.

from self-serving oligarchies. It is a should aim -- it is a pity that

:08:49.:08:55.

people see Brussels going in the opposite direction. Is it going to

:08:56.:08:58.

play much in the British debate? Only in the sense that we are not

:08:59.:09:02.

alone, almost every referendum now, France, the Netherlands, Denmark,

:09:03.:09:11.

goes against British integration, it is not a British eccentricity. If

:09:12.:09:15.

the British were to vote to leave the EU, would there be pressure for

:09:16.:09:19.

a membership referendum in another lens? No, there is still massive

:09:20.:09:24.

support for membership of the EU in the Netherlands and people clearly

:09:25.:09:27.

saw it as a separate issue. People voted because they felt that the

:09:28.:09:32.

Ukraine was not the right country to do a deal with. The Dutch

:09:33.:09:37.

overwhelmingly support membership of the EU. Thank you for joining us.

:09:38.:09:40.

Now before we leave the subject of Europe, just time

:09:41.:09:43.

will make its most important political decision for a generation,

:09:44.:09:52.

whether to leave or remain in the European Union.

:09:53.:09:56.

Some have made up their minds, but if you are struggling

:09:57.:09:59.

through the quagmire of competing arguments,

:10:00.:10:02.

Over the next two months, Newsnight will be devoting a series

:10:03.:10:07.

of special programmes to some of the key issues,

:10:08.:10:11.

like migration, security, the economy and sovereignty.

:10:12.:10:18.

Only you can decide how you will vote but we can arm

:10:19.:10:21.

you with some of the information you need to make a choice,

:10:22.:10:24.

so join us for the first of these special shows this Monday.

:10:25.:10:32.

The starting gun has now been fired on the future

:10:33.:10:36.

Tata Steel said today the sales prospectus for its UK operations

:10:37.:10:40.

will be released on Monday, and they are then looking

:10:41.:10:42.

The Business Secretary Sajid Javid was in Mumbai today,

:10:43.:10:50.

talking to Tata Steel, and stressing that he's

:10:51.:10:51.

talking to other companies who are potential buyers.

:10:52.:10:53.

The most prominent of those, some would say the only show

:10:54.:10:56.

in town, in fact, is a company called Liberty Steel

:10:57.:10:58.

It's a newish company which has recently acquired some other

:10:59.:11:04.

But can this bid realistically herald a new era for British steel?

:11:05.:11:08.

Our policy editor Chris Cook reports.

:11:09.:11:18.

What links the Palm, this development in Dubai, and offers

:11:19.:11:24.

above a sandwich shop on the Isle of Man, and the troubled Tartar

:11:25.:11:29.

steelworks at Port Talbot? The answer is the man who hopes to turn

:11:30.:11:33.

those steelworks around, Sanjeev Gupta, the head of Liberty. Today,

:11:34.:11:40.

the Business Secretary was in Mumbai to talk to Tata about the prospects

:11:41.:11:46.

of selling the steelworks on. One company that has come forward,

:11:47.:11:52.

Liberty International, which has an interest in the British Steel

:11:53.:11:55.

industry. I met with them, that is one example. What I would like to

:11:56.:11:59.

see is many more coming forward and I hope that is what happens. Sanjeev

:12:00.:12:05.

Gupta's company recently took over part of Scotland and before that, a

:12:06.:12:12.

plant in Newport. For a spell that thought the plant was running, he

:12:13.:12:15.

paid the staff for three months and gave them half pay for 15 months. We

:12:16.:12:22.

have had a good experience, our members were there over the

:12:23.:12:26.

transition period, short time workers and they were supported

:12:27.:12:29.

through the process and we've been able to work constructively with him

:12:30.:12:33.

and with the company which I think bodes well for any future

:12:34.:12:37.

arrangement. What does Sanjeev Gupta plan to do? A brief the local MP

:12:38.:12:43.

earlier today. In the end he would like to close down the blast

:12:44.:12:47.

furnaces because he believes they are high cost. And replace them with

:12:48.:12:52.

an electric arc furnace, which he would build from scratch on the

:12:53.:13:01.

site, which uses scrap steel and import slab steel from elsewhere in

:13:02.:13:03.

the world, potentially Brazil for example. They are the key elements

:13:04.:13:10.

of his proposal. He also talks about keeping one blast furnace open

:13:11.:13:15.

through the transitional period, and possibly even for longer. There are

:13:16.:13:19.

some issues, the plan is hardly complete. The analysis has been done

:13:20.:13:26.

on the back of the envelope because we haven't had access. This started

:13:27.:13:30.

a week ago, we haven't had access to the data. So what you have done is a

:13:31.:13:34.

back of the envelope calculation? Yes. The fact that he does not seem

:13:35.:13:39.

across the details now may come back to hurt him, he has two conveys the

:13:40.:13:43.

Treasury to help him and there is another reason why it Whitehall

:13:44.:13:47.

might not want to give him assistance, this is the week that

:13:48.:13:53.

the Panama Papers came out and offshore businessmen are not the

:13:54.:13:56.

flavour of the month. That is a category that Sanjeev Gupta falls

:13:57.:14:01.

into. I'm not referring to the fact that his registered address is at

:14:02.:14:06.

the Palm in Dubai. He also has a holding company on the Isle of Man,

:14:07.:14:11.

liberty is UK is registered here in the rooms above Tasty Bite on the

:14:12.:14:21.

north of the island. That is not his main holding company, that is in

:14:22.:14:25.

Singapore, and that is where Liberty Steel's ownership leads. Sanjeev

:14:26.:14:29.

Gupta will have to answer questions about what is onshore and what is

:14:30.:14:33.

offshore pretty quickly. There are more simple questions. 60% of the

:14:34.:14:38.

workforce in Port Talbot is employed in the heavy end, managing the blast

:14:39.:14:44.

furnaces and parts of the process that are closest to that. And of

:14:45.:14:49.

course, a model that possibly looks at closing down the blast furnaces

:14:50.:14:54.

causes concern because of the impact on jobs. There are not many other

:14:55.:15:00.

takers for the Port Talbot works although a management buyout is

:15:01.:15:04.

quietly being worked on. Right now, saving our steel is far from

:15:05.:15:06.

straightforward. While we are on the subject

:15:07.:15:08.

of business, here is remarkable story about the trade

:15:09.:15:10.

in weapons, trade online. And I'm talking real weapons

:15:11.:15:16.

here like Kalashnikovs or even surface-to-air missiles and above.

:15:17.:15:18.

Traded via Facebook, of all places. Not here, you'll be relieved

:15:19.:15:22.

to hear, we are talking about a market in Libya, a country

:15:23.:15:25.

already awash with weapons. Colonel Gaddafi was an obsessive

:15:26.:15:41.

buyer of weapons. During his 40 years in power he spent an estimated

:15:42.:15:47.

$30 billion on arms, like a compulsive shopaholic, he bought up

:15:48.:15:49.

anything he could get his hands on from the humble Kalashnikov to tanks

:15:50.:15:58.

and mortars, missiles and minds. When rebel forces toppled his regime

:15:59.:16:03.

five years ago, Qaddafi's tightly controlled stockpiles were thrown

:16:04.:16:07.

open. Today these weapons are largely concentrated in the hands of

:16:08.:16:13.

rival militia groups but in this lawless and divided country, it's

:16:14.:16:16.

getting easier for anyone to get their hands on a gun or even

:16:17.:16:20.

something bigger. Newsnight has been given access to data that shows how

:16:21.:16:25.

arms are being traded openly on the Internet. Researchers have been

:16:26.:16:29.

tracking weapons sales on a number of different online platforms. A

:16:30.:16:35.

rocket propelled grenade launcher, offered for sale on Facebook.

:16:36.:16:38.

Another seller comment on the picture that he has more missiles

:16:39.:16:43.

for sale. Over a period of the year, the researchers monitored more than

:16:44.:16:48.

1300 weapons sales, on just a handful of pages, most of them

:16:49.:16:55.

closed the secret Facebook groups. The research was commissioned by the

:16:56.:17:00.

small arms survey, a group that tracks weapons proliferation around

:17:01.:17:05.

the world. We spoke to one of the investigators in Libya who wanted to

:17:06.:17:10.

remain anonymous for his own safety. Basically the dealer comes with the

:17:11.:17:15.

gun in the trunk of his car, and other phone calls, they meet at a

:17:16.:17:23.

certain place, usually a public place, and they do the transaction

:17:24.:17:28.

not so public, it's quite discreet, 100% cash. Much of the trade is in

:17:29.:17:34.

small arms, pistols, rifles, the kind of thing an individual might

:17:35.:17:39.

want to buy for personal protection, especially in a country as lawless

:17:40.:17:45.

as Libya. But not all of it. More worryingly, the researchers also

:17:46.:17:48.

found evidence of bigger weapons being bought and sold online. They

:17:49.:17:54.

trekked nearly 100 separate trades in what are known as light weapons,

:17:55.:17:58.

that is light as opposed to heavy artillery, but make the mistake,

:17:59.:18:07.

this is serious stuff. Traditionally they were small arms, rifles,

:18:08.:18:11.

machine guns, there were significant systems that could have impact,

:18:12.:18:17.

terrorist use, including anti-tank weapons. One seller offered this

:18:18.:18:25.

anti-aircraft gun for 85,000 Libyan dinar, about ?45,000, truck

:18:26.:18:34.

included. These are the kinds of weapons the rebels used to overthrow

:18:35.:18:37.

Colonel Gaddafi, the kinds of weapons you would buy if you want to

:18:38.:18:48.

wage an insurgent campaign. These man portable air defence systems up

:18:49.:18:52.

perhaps the most worrying, hand-held surface-to-air missiles that can

:18:53.:18:55.

take a passenger plane out of the sky. The researchers found two

:18:56.:19:00.

systems for sale, this reusable shoulder head launcher, on offer for

:19:01.:19:07.

between 4000 and 8000 Libyan dinar, or about 2000 to ?4000. We found a

:19:08.:19:19.

number of shoulder mounted anti air missiles, they are basically a

:19:20.:19:22.

threat to civilian aviation. Researchers believe that people

:19:23.:19:27.

wanting to buy these weapons are a number of the militia but they are

:19:28.:19:32.

also more worrying implications. Can see that the weapons are leaking out

:19:33.:19:37.

and given the flow we already see of human trafficking, and other illicit

:19:38.:19:41.

flows across the water into Europe, it's not beyond the realm of

:19:42.:19:43.

possibility we could see some of these weapons going across the water

:19:44.:19:50.

into Europe. Most of the weapons tracked by the researchers came from

:19:51.:19:54.

Colonel Gaddafi's Arsenal although some had been shipped to Libya

:19:55.:19:59.

before or after the revolution. In this country it is difficult to

:20:00.:20:04.

define this trade in legal terms, it is certainly unregistered and it's

:20:05.:20:07.

definitely against Facebook policy. In a statement, they told us:

:20:08.:20:27.

at the moment this appears to be largely internal trade, that is to

:20:28.:20:33.

say the weapons are being bought and sold by Libyans, most likely for use

:20:34.:20:39.

in Libya. But the ease-of-use and anonymity the Internet offers

:20:40.:20:43.

suggests threat of these weapons is spreading beyond Libya's borders.

:20:44.:20:47.

While we talk about what the leaked Panama Papers tell

:20:48.:20:50.

us about tax avoidance and evasion, there is another angle.

:20:51.:20:53.

If I'm evil or if I'm a tax evader or even just imagine I'm

:20:54.:21:01.

the Prime Minister of Iceland, I tend to prefer my private

:21:02.:21:03.

And our society has been complicit in allowing the rich and

:21:04.:21:21.

powerful to have their secrets because we allow

:21:22.:21:24.

everybody to keep their finances to themselves.

:21:25.:21:27.

Well all of a sudden the culture of privacy or

:21:28.:21:30.

secrecy, call it what you will, that culture is under threat.

:21:31.:21:32.

Really because of the data stick, the

:21:33.:21:35.

technology of data storage and data search, has made it easier than ever

:21:36.:21:39.

before to dump terabytes of secrets into the public domain.

:21:40.:21:41.

And now we have seen it done, you wouldn't want

:21:42.:21:44.

your life to depend on data that had been leaked.

:21:45.:21:46.

So do we welcome this new world of transparency?

:21:47.:21:51.

The Prime Minister certainly says he does.

:21:52.:21:53.

You're going to have so much information about what we do,

:21:54.:21:57.

how much of your money was spent doing it and what the

:21:58.:22:00.

This cloak of secrecy has fuelled all manners of

:22:01.:22:05.

questionable practice and downright legality.

:22:06.:22:06.

And work with us to spread this abridged transparency around

:22:07.:22:09.

Is it fair to say the Panama whistle-blower has done more

:22:10.:22:16.

to prise open the murky world of offshore companies than the Prime

:22:17.:22:19.

But let's ask why would we want for transparency, why not and how could

:22:20.:22:30.

we achieve it? There is enforcing the tax rules,

:22:31.:22:40.

the difference between legal appointment and illegal evasion is

:22:41.:22:43.

you should have no reason to hide the legal ploys. But we also like

:22:44.:22:50.

transparency in order to know where people's money comes from. We can

:22:51.:22:54.

all ask the question had that person get to be so rich. President Putin's

:22:55.:23:01.

cellist friend, we can see just how good a cellist he must been to gain

:23:02.:23:09.

his wealth. So is there and I commit against transparency? He is one

:23:10.:23:14.

offered by the Chief Executive of HSBC to MPs went emerged he was

:23:15.:23:20.

hiding his fortune offshore. My question was why you felt the need

:23:21.:23:27.

is a Hong Kong domiciled person to create a Panamanian company. There

:23:28.:23:35.

was no tax purpose, it was... It was purely to give me privacy within my

:23:36.:23:40.

own company. Is that a good enough reason? I suppose you might say that

:23:41.:23:44.

as well as the bankers, kidnappers and crooks would be interested in

:23:45.:23:49.

his private wealth data. But let me ask, do you think everyone who wins

:23:50.:23:54.

the lottery should have to take the publicity box? Using your own salary

:23:55.:23:58.

should be published so I can look it up, like I can look up your house on

:23:59.:24:02.

the land Registry but the site to find out who owns it and at what

:24:03.:24:07.

price they bought it? If all that sounds bonkers, it is exactly what

:24:08.:24:11.

those crazy Scandinavians do already. Sweden, Norway and Finland,

:24:12.:24:17.

everyone's income and tax details are published online. But that

:24:18.:24:21.

Scandinavian example does give us a clue into how we get more openness

:24:22.:24:27.

if we wanted. We would need a wholesale change of culture we from

:24:28.:24:30.

the principle that my business belongs to me, and that's a pretty

:24:31.:24:36.

big shift. Think of all the concern around procedure and encryption and

:24:37.:24:42.

how we want the government to stop finding out staff to stop that is

:24:43.:24:47.

what we want to do as well as distributing data sticks to

:24:48.:24:48.

whistle-blowers. Earlier I spoke to Tom Macan,

:24:49.:24:52.

the former governor of the British Virgin Islands,

:24:53.:24:54.

who thinks we need more I began by asking him

:24:55.:24:57.

what legislation he would seek The legislation has to be passed

:24:58.:25:00.

by the Virgin Islands House of Assembly and I think it needs

:25:01.:25:04.

to involve a public register, so that anyone can gain access

:25:05.:25:07.

and find out just who owns what. Because that is rather

:25:08.:25:18.

difficult at the moment. In your experience, did the British

:25:19.:25:19.

government push very hard The British Virgin Islands,

:25:20.:25:22.

the clue is in the name, isn't it? Did the British government tell

:25:23.:25:31.

them, look, we want a bit There was pressure throughout my

:25:32.:25:34.

time towards the running of an efficient and legitimate

:25:35.:25:39.

financial services sector. But I can't say that it enjoyed

:25:40.:25:46.

ministers' sustained attention And indeed the system, as it runs,

:25:47.:25:53.

is indeed reasonably well monitored. The weakness comes at the end stage,

:25:54.:26:01.

knowing exactly who owns what. The fact that this information

:26:02.:26:10.

is only available to the agent, probably the legal firm,

:26:11.:26:16.

in the Virgin Islands. Could the British government,

:26:17.:26:21.

and I haven't really managed to hear a clear answer on this,

:26:22.:26:25.

could the British government told the richest Virgin Islands,

:26:26.:26:28.

you are going to do this, because we tell you you have

:26:29.:26:30.

to do it? It would be possible for the British

:26:31.:26:33.

government to obtain an order in Council, which is the basis

:26:34.:26:40.

on which the BVI constitution exists and the order in Council

:26:41.:26:46.

could give an instruction. This would be the nuclear option, it

:26:47.:26:51.

has only been done twice recently. That was to abolish

:26:52.:26:54.

capital punishment, and to abolish discrimination,

:26:55.:27:00.

legislation forbidding But I can't say that it enjoyed

:27:01.:27:04.

ministers' sustained attention There was an extent to which this

:27:05.:27:24.

was rather meaningless because there had been no capital

:27:25.:27:26.

punishment for half a century, and the laws making homosexuality

:27:27.:27:29.

is a criminal offence had So this would be a very major

:27:30.:27:31.

departure from current practice. Let's discuss this issue

:27:32.:27:36.

of transparency versus secrecy with the Guardian's Polly Toynbee,

:27:37.:27:38.

and the tax lawyer James Quarmby who leads the private wealth team

:27:39.:27:40.

at Stephenson Harwood LLP, James, first of all, things have

:27:41.:27:54.

changed. Even today as we speak, the law here has changed about who owns

:27:55.:27:59.

companies. How significant is the change? Extremely, because we are

:28:00.:28:04.

the first country to introduce a fully public register of companies.

:28:05.:28:10.

That's not just who owns the companies but the people behind

:28:11.:28:14.

those companies. And the one behind the one behind that? It will trace

:28:15.:28:19.

all the way through, they have come up with a concept called persons of

:28:20.:28:26.

significant control. Because it gets ridiculous after a while, if

:28:27.:28:29.

somebody has a 2% interest in the company, there is no point reporting

:28:30.:28:33.

that. Say you have persons of significant control, whoever they

:28:34.:28:38.

are, wherever they are, whatever they are hiding behind, they are

:28:39.:28:41.

going to be reported. And that works for companies. The FT are reporting

:28:42.:28:49.

that David Cameron, in 2013, obstructed a similar idea as regards

:28:50.:28:57.

the trusts. And I think the Cameron defence is that they wanted to make

:28:58.:29:00.

sure it worked on companies they thought trusts different.

:29:01.:29:08.

This comes from the money-laundering directive in the EU. What the EU was

:29:09.:29:16.

saying is, let's extend this to trusts. Most of the EU don't have

:29:17.:29:21.

trusts, so it is England that invented them. They are saying that

:29:22.:29:26.

there are hundreds of thousands of trusts and most of them are so

:29:27.:29:30.

mundane that requiring the trustees to report them becomes a complete

:29:31.:29:37.

intrusion into your life. Before we go on to the general principle, the

:29:38.:29:43.

British government's commitment to openness, Cameron has talked about

:29:44.:29:47.

it all the time, do you buy it? He has talked a wonderful talk, he has

:29:48.:29:52.

been lyrical about the corruption and how he's going to have sunlight

:29:53.:29:57.

everywhere. We'll wait and see. What is coming in today is more minor

:29:58.:30:02.

than it looks because there is nobody to check it, companies put in

:30:03.:30:05.

their own reports, companies house do nothing with it. Banks who know

:30:06.:30:10.

who the owners are are not required to tell companies house who are the

:30:11.:30:17.

beneficial owners. I think there is a lot of wriggle room. What's more,

:30:18.:30:23.

Cameron at this moment in Europe is blocking the blacklisting a lot of

:30:24.:30:26.

these treasure Island is that we administer, these tax havens --

:30:27.:30:35.

Islands. He is telling his MEPs to block these things. Let's talk about

:30:36.:30:42.

the principle, James, give us a legitimate reason why people should

:30:43.:30:47.

have financial secrets, why they should be disguising their ownership

:30:48.:30:50.

of assets at all? I want to challenge your use of the word

:30:51.:30:55.

secrets and talk about privacy. There is a point at which

:30:56.:30:59.

transparency becomes intrusive and a bad thing. You want some good

:31:00.:31:04.

reasons? Let's look at all of the publicity we've had about online

:31:05.:31:10.

identity theft. We're all told, be careful how much information you

:31:11.:31:17.

give away, right? But that's not what is causing the super-rich to

:31:18.:31:21.

have these companies in the Channel Islands? It is more complicated,

:31:22.:31:25.

people are advocating that details of your wealth, if you want to take

:31:26.:31:30.

the Scandinavian model, in Sweden they publish your tax returns, so

:31:31.:31:34.

they know how much you learn, how much you give to charity. That's

:31:35.:31:39.

going to provide criminals, conmen, opportunists of the worst possible

:31:40.:31:44.

kind the leveraged to have a go at you. Polly, you are laughing? I'm

:31:45.:31:52.

sorry! Criminals, they are the people sorting their money away,

:31:53.:31:57.

there is no good reason why anybody should have offshore accounts. It is

:31:58.:32:02.

easy to set up a company here, it is much more expensive and complicated

:32:03.:32:07.

to do it there. You are hiding things, almost by definition, apart

:32:08.:32:10.

from a fewer cases. You believe that all of it should be available for us

:32:11.:32:17.

all to see? As you say, it would be a monstrous culture shock and people

:32:18.:32:20.

would feel that they have had their clothes ripped off them, but once we

:32:21.:32:25.

have got used to the idea and took up the Scandinavian idea, I think

:32:26.:32:32.

people would realise, knowing what the person next to you earn is, are

:32:33.:32:35.

you owning the same, especially women who often paid less... We

:32:36.:32:43.

talked about asking what somebody's salary is. The whole point about it,

:32:44.:32:50.

I have published it before, so has George Mumby in the Guardian, the

:32:51.:32:56.

point about it is, what is my salary, I will come if you will! --

:32:57.:33:04.

Monbiot. Let's be open. The point is, like paying your taxes, you do

:33:05.:33:08.

it because everybody else does and if somebody doesn't, they stop

:33:09.:33:11.

paying their taxes, everybody else starts to say, I know these

:33:12.:33:16.

billionaires who have their money salted away in tax havens, why

:33:17.:33:21.

should I pay? Why are we focusing on billionaires? Ordinary people would

:33:22.:33:25.

be impacted. Because they have the tax havens. Hold on, we're obsessing

:33:26.:33:30.

over the rich and famous and notorious, I want to talk about the

:33:31.:33:34.

60 million people who would be affected by the intrusion of having

:33:35.:33:36.

their financial affairs posted on the Internet. Let me ask you, would

:33:37.:33:43.

you nail your bank account on your front door for the public to see? If

:33:44.:33:47.

everybody else will, absolutely. You are happy to do it, but do you want

:33:48.:33:54.

to force that on other people, who wants to keep their affairs secret

:33:55.:33:58.

and that isn't fair. What is happening now, most people pay their

:33:59.:34:05.

tax and they feel that there are fears that smack their affairs are

:34:06.:34:10.

not very secret but it is the mega rich offend people, and increasing

:34:11.:34:15.

the late -- increasingly they are getting away with it. The Panama

:34:16.:34:20.

Papers frightens people, people with a reputation to lose know that it

:34:21.:34:23.

can be hacked and they had better not do it any more.

:34:24.:34:26.

It's been distressing to read about the murder of Angela Wrightson

:34:27.:34:28.

in recent days, mocked, tortured and killed at her own home

:34:29.:34:32.

in 2014, by two girls, one aged 13, one 14.

:34:33.:34:37.

The two are both 15 now, both have had lives appropriately

:34:38.:34:44.

described as chaotic, both spending time in care, and it seems

:34:45.:34:48.

the pair of them together, were far more unpleasant

:34:49.:34:50.

They will be sentenced tomorrow, but what is the best way

:34:51.:34:54.

You obviously can't call them victims in this case,

:34:55.:34:57.

but can you treat them like ordinary murderers?

:34:58.:34:59.

Let's discuss this with Laurence Lee, the solicitor

:35:00.:35:02.

who represented John Venebles during the James Bulger case

:35:03.:35:04.

in 1993, and Amanda Holt, a criminologist at the University

:35:05.:35:07.

If I can start with you, Lawrence, first of all, is our system is

:35:08.:35:20.

well-designed to deal with these kinds of cases, do you think? Let me

:35:21.:35:26.

say from the outset, good evening, let me say from the outset that most

:35:27.:35:30.

young people in society are well bought up and we are dealing with a

:35:31.:35:36.

very small minority. This is a debate that has raged for years

:35:37.:35:40.

about whether they are victims of society. There was a case of the

:35:41.:35:48.

police officer who was killed, the guy who did it, Clayton Williams,

:35:49.:35:55.

was found guilty of manslaughter and his solicitor said he was a victim

:35:56.:35:58.

of society, which hasn't gone down very well. But as far as these young

:35:59.:36:05.

girls are concerned, they are in the minority but I wish I knew the

:36:06.:36:10.

answer to the problem. Let me put it to Amanda. How do you think or do

:36:11.:36:15.

you think a 13-year-old should be treated the same as an 18-year-old

:36:16.:36:19.

for committing the same crime? I don't think they should, we should

:36:20.:36:25.

take into account the kind of vulnerabilities that children have.

:36:26.:36:31.

They don't have the cognitive immaturity as an adult, which is why

:36:32.:36:34.

we don't let anybody vote who is under 18 or buy cigarettes and

:36:35.:36:41.

alcohol, or consent to sex. The age of criminal responsibility is

:36:42.:36:46.

incredibly low in England and Wales, anomalous compared to the other

:36:47.:36:50.

rights that we get. Answer that point, would you treat a 13-year-old

:36:51.:36:57.

the same as an 18-year-old,? You can't treat them in the same way. I

:36:58.:37:02.

have banged on about the age of criminal responsibility for years.

:37:03.:37:04.

Maybe my views are slightly different from others'. The age of

:37:05.:37:11.

common responsibility is in my view correct for grave crimes there may

:37:12.:37:17.

be a two tier system. I think New Zealand has a two tier system for

:37:18.:37:23.

the grave crimes, ten, but for minor crimes, maybe 13, 14. The courts

:37:24.:37:28.

shouldn't be cluttered but it would be wrong to increase the age of

:37:29.:37:36.

criminal responsibility. The Bulger killers could never have been

:37:37.:37:40.

prosecuted. What kind of sentence, how do you decide to sentence

:37:41.:37:44.

someone who is 13, and does it make a difference that they have had a

:37:45.:37:49.

difficult background? You have to take their background into account,

:37:50.:37:52.

and different disadvantages. That isn't suggesting that we should let

:37:53.:37:58.

them off the hook. The other thing I'm concerned about, these debates

:37:59.:38:02.

emerge when we have a case of such extreme horror, even young people

:38:03.:38:05.

who are engaged in criminal activity, all of them, 99% of them

:38:06.:38:11.

would be appalled at the horrendous crime but it is always these crimes

:38:12.:38:14.

that are at the forefront of people's minds when we have these

:38:15.:38:19.

debates and I think that is worrying because we have this idea of a young

:38:20.:38:26.

people committing crime rather than the other crimes that people commit

:38:27.:38:30.

and often grow out of. In a sentence, what kind of discount,

:38:31.:38:35.

what kind of sentence are you talking about for such a crime? You

:38:36.:38:42.

have to take each case and look at the context, I can't comment on this

:38:43.:38:46.

particular case. I don't think I can gladly say, this is for this and

:38:47.:38:51.

this for that. With adults as well, we have to look at the

:38:52.:38:56.

circumstances. Redemption, do you believe in redemption, for evil

:38:57.:39:00.

children? Yes, because if you look at the Bulger killers, at the time

:39:01.:39:05.

it appeared that Thompson, who was the other lad, would reoffend more

:39:06.:39:12.

likely than Venables, but Venables did. But it seems that Thompson has

:39:13.:39:20.

redeemed himself. It's impossible to say at ten how you will turn out.

:39:21.:39:24.

Those two boys pressed the self-destruct button. It appears

:39:25.:39:28.

that Thompson has come out better, as it were. Thank you for joining

:39:29.:39:30.

us. We leave you with the burning

:39:31.:39:31.

question in the tech world - who is going to be top dog

:39:32.:39:36.

in the emerging world Last week we saw the best known

:39:37.:39:39.

contender, Facebook's Oculus Rift. Now it's the turn of

:39:40.:39:52.

their big rival, the HTC Vive. The Vive's big sell is that you're

:39:53.:39:54.

not confined to the sofa, you can walk around

:39:55.:39:57.

and even touch things. Here it is with the help of some

:39:58.:39:59.

old fashioned green screen, so that we can see what the people

:40:00.:40:02.

with the headset see. Any questions? Can I go first? Go

:40:03.:40:17.

crazy. Go and get it! He actually gets it! It makes you feel you are

:40:18.:40:25.

pulling the strings back. Turn left! No way! My goodness, so cool. O!

:40:26.:40:38.

Look at this thing. Ooh!

:40:39.:40:44.

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