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Too few of us understand how the EU works. | :00:00. | :00:15. | |
The EU is meant to be a family of nations, a large, | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
sprawling family speaking different languages, often unable to take | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
decisions and frequently arguing over money. | :00:25. | :00:25. | |
We've a packed studio of politicians, experts, | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
and the public, to work out whether the EU is effective | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
We ride the gravy train with John Sweeney. | :00:32. | :00:41. | |
Each month the entire European Parliament moves from Brussels to | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
Strasbourg, is here for a week, and then moves back to Brussels, in | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
boxes like this. People say it's a fantastic waste of time and money. | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
And does the EU spend money to suit other countries much | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
The good French go and set fire to motorways and spread muck in the | :01:02. | :01:11. | |
middle of Brussels, things if I did, I would be put away probably for | :01:12. | :01:12. | |
life. Welcome to the fifth | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
of our special programmes, aimed at helping you come | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
to a decision on how to vote Tonight, we getting | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
into the nitty-gritty. We won't be talking | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
about the Third World War, or Hitler, we shall be focussing | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
on some detail. We'll look at the money | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
of ours that it spends, I wonder if anybody would | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
argue the EU works well. Or will the Remain side simply argue | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
that it doesn't work As usual, we have a politician | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
on each side of debate. We have a supporting cast of experts | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
and professionals who keep And we have our regular group | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
of undecided voters. Well, they were undecided | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
when we started but they're Voters, let's start with you. We're | :01:57. | :02:10. | |
talking about the EU and Brussels. Do you feel you understand it? Any | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
of you feel you know your way round? No. Detached. That's the word I | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
would say. Any other words that come to mind? Fragmented. Inaccessible. I | :02:20. | :02:28. | |
thought those might be some of the words. | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
Grur Ireland originally -- you're from Ireland originally. Got quite a | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
lot out of it, that's one of the places where all the money went. | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
Yes, during the 80s we became the agricultural side of things. We did | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
quite well. Arguably started the boom back then and became prosperous | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
after that. It has been a good thing for us. Anding la, I know you're a | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
para-- Angela, I know you're a parallel, do you see Brussels laws, | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
are they sensible, well drafted? I find there's an influx of directives | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
and of regulations, so I think we're overdosed with it frankly. Really? | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
Yeah. What word Sian would you use? I would say gravy train. I would go | :03:14. | :03:22. | |
along those lines. This sounds like the Remain side has persuading to do | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
in the debate. There have been others that were more even handed. | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
We'll see whether you change your views by the time we come to the end | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
of the tea bait. -- debate. | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
Now, let's start with the money side of things - | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
Throughout the campaign, we have heard one figure oft repeated. | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
It is that we spend ?350 million a week on it - | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
there it is, you can see Boris Johnson attempting to angle | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
grind it into oblivion at a Vote Leave media event. | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
Actually, it's not the best measure of the cost, | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
so what are the facts on the EU budget? | :03:52. | :04:05. | |
Start with that famous figure, ?350 million a week. What does that mean? | :04:06. | :04:15. | |
Here's this week's 350 million. Merci. First get it into a | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
comprehensible scale, 5. ?5.30 a week for each person in the country. | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
Here's this week's 5. ?5.30. Thank you. Ignore that, it's the notional | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
full price of EU membership, we though get mates' rates, a deal | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
called the rebate. Take that off and the cost is ?4 per week for each of | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
us. Actually you only owe us ?4. That's our money the EU controls. | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
We'd get that back if we left. But the EU spends a third of that here. | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
Most of it goes on farmers and to some poorer regions. 1. 30 back for | :04:58. | :05:08. | |
farmers and the poor parts of the country. Thank you. It's not clear | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
how we would choose to spend that, but if you take it off, the net cost | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
of the EU to Britain is ?2.70 per person, per week. What it is is not | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
350 million a week, it's half that, 175. The EU budget overall primarily | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
exists to take money from rich countries and give it to poor | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
countries and to farmers. We're not poor and don't have so many farmers, | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
so we end up putting in more than most. If you look at what we all put | :05:40. | :05:48. | |
in, net per head, Britain makes the seventh biggest contribution, less | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
than the Germans, more than the French. We're in the half of EU | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
countries that pay in, half or just over take out. | :05:58. | :06:07. | |
It would be nice to have ?5 billion to ?10 billion more | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
per year to spend here - no doubt about it. | :06:11. | :06:12. | |
But remember that most economists think we're | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
If they're right, and if the economy grows faster IN the EU than out | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
of it, then it's worth spending a few billion to get | :06:21. | :06:22. | |
Let me just see if we can get our politicians | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
to agree on the basic facts of the budget. | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
For Remain, we have the Secretary of State for Energy | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
And for Leave, the Ukip MP, Douglas Carswell. | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Good evening both. Kate Hoey said if we vote to leave we have 350 million | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
we send to Brussels each week that can be spent on the NHS. It can't, | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
can it? It's fair to talk about 350 million a week, let me explain why. | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
If you look at the Office of National Statistics figures, last | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
year we spent 19. 1 billion on money that we handed over control to | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
Brussels. There are 52 weeks in a year, divide that per week and you | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
get a figure slightly over the 350 million. It's money over which we've | :07:04. | :07:11. | |
creeded control. -- ceded control. We get a rebate... We have a veto. | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
It's up for grabs every few years. In 2020 it's up for grabs again. | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
What Tony Blair was in charge, he handed half the rebate away. We | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
don't have to, though, it's negotiated It's not just the rebate. | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
The money is spent at the discretion of the EU not us. We would not have | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
the rebate, we're not sending the rebate over. We don't even send it. | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
Hang on, you know the rebate is paid a year in arrears. We are handing it | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
over. We get it back the following year. It's quite legitimate to say | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
we hand over control 350 million... Britain sends 350 million a we're to | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
the EU. We don't send that because we don't send the rebate. Why did | :07:56. | :08:04. | |
the Statistics Commission say it was potentially problematic to use that | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
figure. It's 19. $1 billion... That doesn't confirm that figure. It puts | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
that figure in for illustration. I brought this letter because it's | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
over then cited and spun. The facts reinforce everything - Before the | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
rebate, it would be 18 billion. It makes it clear that actually when we | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
give all this money to Brussels, about 9 billion of it we never see | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
it again. It subsidises Mr Juncker's jet or pay for tobacco farmers in | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
Greece. Should we attach the same credibility to all the claims your | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
campaign is making that you want us to attach to that one. It's factual. | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
Every week we hand over - We get a rebate. We don't control that. What | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
do you mean? We don't pay it. We couldn't spend that money on the NHS | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
because we don't send it to Brussels. We're highly vulnerable | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
because the rebate is not in control, no British Government can | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
guarantee that. I was hoping we could get agreement on that one. It | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
isn't 350 million by any normal view of it, it may not be a hospital | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
every week or whatever the thing is, but it is a hospital every two | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
weeks. Can I just comment on Douglas and his campaign's use of the 350 | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
million. It is misleading. I would urge you and your team to stop using | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
it. The fact is we do spend money sending over to the EU, but it's not | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
350 million. I think it's probably, after we account for the rebate and | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
take into account what we receive back, it's more like about 17 | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
million a day. There is a cost, though. I wouldn't look at it in | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
terms a hospital or schools. What really counts for strong public | :09:43. | :09:44. | |
service ises a strong economy. If we're going to have a strong | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
economy, we need to be in the single market. It's wholly misleading to | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
look at this in terms of trying to net off the costs we pay into the EU | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
against spending money here. A strong economy will deliver strong | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
public services. I made that point for you. I don't want to pay much | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
time on that debate. To help us drill down a little more, | :10:06. | :10:07. | |
we thought we'd look at how Cumbria has been receiving | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
European investment Hadrian's Wall runs through it | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
into Northumberland. These days Cumbria gets a fair | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
amount of cash, thanks to the EU. So would it, if we left | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
the European Union? The EU budget is divided broadly | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
into two big chunks. One big chunk that goes to farmers, | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
through the common agricultural policy, and the other big chunk that | :10:35. | :10:36. | |
goes to poorer regions and nations There's about ?4 | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
billion all together. A large chunk of which goes | :10:40. | :10:48. | |
to farmers and the rest goes to poorer regions of the UK, | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
for example, Cornwall, There's no question | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
about whether we could afford to keep funding those | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
sorts of projects. The question is whether we would | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
choose to keep funding them once Let's start with the ?3 | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
billion or so we spend Lots of farmers have | :11:08. | :11:21. | |
a very clear view. For me, for this farm, | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
for where I am halfway up a hillside in Cumbria, | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
it frightens me to death the thought The support I get from the European | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
CAP keeps me farming here, keeps me producing food and keeps | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
the countryside That's what we're paid for apart | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
from producing food. A post Brexit Britain could afford | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
to keep that going. I have absolutely no | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
confidence that they will do. Every time there's been a CAP | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
reform, no matter whether it's been Labour or Conservative Government, | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
they've gone to Brussels to get The fact that French farmers | :11:58. | :11:59. | |
are better lobbyists Absolutely, yes, the good French, | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
they go and set fire to motorways and spread muck | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
in the middle of Brussels, things if I did, I would probably | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
be put away for life. Vote Leave have said, | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
"We would not cut agricultural subsidies if we leave | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
the EU," but they're arguing against a consensus that | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
includes most of Whitehall The UK has been, over the last | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
decade, one of the main countries in the EU trying to reduce | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
the common agricultural policy. My expectation would be that over | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
the medium run we would reduce somewhat the amount of subsidies | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
that farmers get. Maryport in Cumbria has won grants | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
in the ?1 billion a year EU This fund is distributed by local | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
British decision makers, but the cash must be handed out | :12:50. | :12:56. | |
following EU rules. West Wales and Cornwall get special | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
attention as our poorest regions, but Cumbria as a so-called | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
transition region Recently with EU funding | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
Love Maryport, a local group, trying to help promote the town, | :13:09. | :13:18. | |
has received money. We've managed to do more finger | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
posts, more maps and signage around The EU also put money | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
into basic infrastructure like this dock bridge, | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
the marina and even At initial set up in 1996, | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
something called the European Development Fund provided me | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
with about 30% of capital costs and more recently, the flag | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
fisheries local action group provided me with nearly 50% grant | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
on this new extension we're in now. But this EU regional funding | :13:53. | :14:04. | |
is dwarfed by flows of UK public We transfer vast sums | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
of money from richer parts of our country to poorer, | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
sometimes subtly via welfare and public services, | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
sometimes explicitly It's not fair to say that we left | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
the European Union you would get For us in Maryport we receive | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
funding from different streams. It's hard to say what | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
the effect leaving Do you think we would have a similar | :14:32. | :14:33. | |
grant structure if we were to leave? Maybe not similar, but I think | :14:34. | :14:42. | |
the money could probably be Certainly there would be less | :14:43. | :14:44. | |
bureaucracy involved. The effects of Brexit on regional | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
funding might be very small, but lots of farmers are not sanguine | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
about their subsidies. The critical selling point of Brexit | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
for most people is that Britain That is precisely what | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
worries most farmers. So let's focus on the budget | :15:01. | :15:09. | |
and what we get back. Amber Rudd, you do have to admit it | :15:10. | :15:24. | |
seems more sensible for us to spend money in the UK than for us to give | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
it to Brussels for them to spend? I would say this is part of a package, | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
part of the deal of being in the club is that we do send over a | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
larger sum than we receive back and then part of the decision-making is | :15:37. | :15:45. | |
made in the EU. The UK has a major role in deciding how that is spent. | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
Sometimes people underestimate the role of the UK in influencing the | :15:50. | :16:01. | |
shape of the EU decision-making. Presumably, we could administer all | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
those things ourselves, there would be no great loss because we would | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
save money? That is certainly true. There is a compromise position which | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
is if you are a member of a club and you have decided the club has | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
benefits for you, there will be additional bureaucracy. Overall, is | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
it a good thing? Is it adding to the strength of the economy? The answer | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
is yes. Do you, would you spend as much on farmers as the EU does if we | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
had the choice over that money ourselves? As was said earlier, we | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
have been explicit, the UK, that we would like to see the amount | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
reduced. That is across the EU, that is not just for the UK. That would | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
be a good reason, you are saying it would be a good reason to leave | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
because we would be able to cut our farmers' subsidies in a way that we | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
can't when we are in the EU? No, because I'm saying I want to have a | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
level playing field for everybody. Farming is incredibly important for | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
the UK. I don't want us to have a different subsidy to the rest of the | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
EU. Having a level playing field makes sure our farmers remain | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
competitive. Douglas Carswell, we vote for Brexit, we get the money | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
back, how would you use the power, the freedom you have got? Some great | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
projects receive funding from the EU. If we were outside, if we had | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
control over the money ourself, we could spend more. I think it is | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
wonderful that we have put money towards farmers. Because they are so | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
efficient they are discriminated against by the Common Agricultural | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
Policy. Our farmers are way down the league table in terms of the per | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
acreage payment. You would give farmers more money or less money? I | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
would want to see us use the capacity to put more money into | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
farming, perhaps to do slightly more environmentally protective things, | :17:55. | :17:56. | |
but that would be my own personal choice. We certainly can't spend | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
?350 million a week on the NHS because you have spent it on farm | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
subsidies? I'm not writing a future budget... You can't double-count it. | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
You asked me for my personal view. If, for every ?1 we put in, we get | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
less than 50p back. If we had control of our own money, we could | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
spend it better than we are spending it now. Your feeling is, because we | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
heard the farmers says the French are better at lobbying than we are, | :18:26. | :18:33. | |
so we like being in the EU because that keeps subsidy levels up. Every | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
year we give the Common Agricultural Policy ?4.6 billion. We get ?2.9 | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
billion back. We could do better. Our panel tonight consists | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
of Sir Stephen Wall, our former Permanent Representative | :18:46. | :18:47. | |
to the EU. Minette Batters, Deputy President | :18:48. | :18:48. | |
of the National Farmers' Union. We also have Dia Chakravarty, | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
Political Director of Her organisation is not taking | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
a political position, Our final panellist is Tara Palmeri, | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
a Brussels-based journalist Because we are on agriculture, I | :18:59. | :19:12. | |
should bring you in, Minette Batters. What is your fear of | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
leaving, what happens to farmers and the budget that goes to them? I | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
think you have to look at it in the wider context. It all remains in | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
politicians' hands, we have to look at the fact we do not have a | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
ringfenced department. We have never had in the last 20 years any form of | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
robust food policy. We have 65 million people in this country to | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
feed so a robust food policy, farmers produce 62% of UK food | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
supplies, but it's got to be a Common Agricultural Policy. We | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
cannot be disadvantaged in the marketplace. Most of our farmers | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
would much prefer to farm without subsidy. It is there to protect them | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
from market failure. We have an ongoing retail price war so huge | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
challenges for farmers that are producing food. What is curious | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
about this conversation is, for the last 30 years I thought I had been | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
brought up, almost fed a diet on the CAP is a waste of money and getting | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
rid of it was one of the reasons to get out of the EU. I'm hearing all | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
of you, Douglas, Minette, Amber, you are in favour of money going to | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
farmers? I think it is important to emphasise that if we vote to leave, | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
we will continue to support our farmers. The CAP has been reformed, | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
it has been reformed a lot over the past years. There's been much more | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
focus on environmental strength within farming. Your average dairy | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
farmer - we have talked a lot about milk - your average dairy farmer is | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
receiving a support payment of ?25,000. Your average dairy farm | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
costs ?40,000 per month to run that business, without taking any wages | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
out so that puts it into context that you have a small amount of | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
money. Dia Chakravarty, you are from the Taxpayers' Alliance, you are | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
meant to be arguing against all forms of public spending? The few | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
things I have heard so far is Amber saying whatever the amount is that | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
we are sending out, we are sending out more, look at the gross number | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
or the net, we are sending out more than we are receiving. By coming | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
out, that means we have a bigger pot of money to play with. I have also | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
heard Minette put a passionate argument for the farmers. I don't | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
understand why we can't put that argument to our Westminster | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
politicians such as Amber and Douglas, so if you were to come out | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
of the EU, why couldn't we make those arguments to the Westminster | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
Government and make sure our farmers have what they need? Why does the | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
decision have to be made in Brussels? We will be doing that. We | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
would be making the case to Westminster... You fear the money | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
wouldn't come to you if you had to argue it to the Westminster | :22:02. | :22:03. | |
politicians? We haven't got a ringfenced department. We haven't | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
had a food policy. Amber has said there has been a Government policy | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
to look at lowering supportive payments. Would we have that | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
mechanism to back us? I have also heard that it's been a mechanism | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
EU-wide, the idea is to bring CAP down EU-wide so you will have to | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
make the argument at the Brussels level. Why not make those arguments | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
here? Douglas? In the clip there was some talk about the importance of | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
regional funds. Surely, if Albania, Macedonia, Turkey, Serbia all join | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
the EU in the next few years, is there going to be scope in the | :22:45. | :22:46. | |
budget for continued regional funding? I think that is a real | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
cause of concern. You have gone on to where I wanted to go, which is we | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
have looked at agriculture. Most people here are in favour of | :22:56. | :23:07. | |
agricultural subsidies. The money that we get back is spent on our | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
agriculture. All the money we give effectively is spent on helping | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
poorer nations? That is not necessarily always the case. 70% of | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
the budget goes on helping other countries? 1.4 million went to the | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
Swedish King's farm. 1.5 million is a lot of money. Amber Rudd, what is | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
the right amount for Britain to give in overseas aid, development aid to | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
Eastern and Central Europe? The UK has its own target. This is on top | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
of that. It is done by negotiation. The EU together put in a ?1 billion | :23:51. | :23:59. | |
fund to stop the Ebola virus... I'm talking about the the development | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
aid we give to Eastern Europe, to the countries in the EU, we are | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
chucking money basically... I don't think we are chucking it. I would | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
take issue with the point that we had a certain amount to play with. | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
There is a cost to being in the EU. We think it is about, I would say, | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
not the ?350 million, but that delivers us to membership which | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
makes sure our economy is stronger so we don't have ?5.8 billion to | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
play with, we have a much more successful and stronger economy. We | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
can't look at the cost here. OK. Give me the benefits of us giving | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
money to Poland and to Lithuania and Estonia, they are getting a lot of | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
money out. We are putting in. Explain to our panel of voters what | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
is the benefit of us putting money in on top of the development budget | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
that we have for poorer countries to give to them? The benefit is about | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
being in the single market. By being in the single market we have access | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
to 500 million other people, we have access to an enormous amount of | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
trade potential. Food... This is like a subscription that you have to | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
pay to get some other benefits. It is good to be part of the single | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
market and what I object to in terms of the Leave campaign is it is | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
unclear what the alternative is. It is perfectly possible to have market | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
access to the single market to trade with the single market without | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
subsidising the free jet travel of Jean-Claude Juncker, Greek tobacco | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
farmers. It is money we never see again and it is spent on things that | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
are not a priority for us. I don't want to get into an argument - we | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
did the single market one a few weeks back. I'm trying to work out | :25:47. | :25:54. | |
whether there are benefits to us from Poland developing and from the | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
Czech Republic and Lithuania. You are not trying to make that case, | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
Amber Rudd. You are saying that is the price you have to pay. I can | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
make the case in terms of my own department. We want to make sure | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
that we support Poland for instance and making sure that they make some | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
changes for moving away from coal. We want to make sure we address our | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
climate change commitments within the EU. This is in the UK's | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
interest. Having additional influence within the EU, which we | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
can use by being part of this group and being a net donor is helpful to | :26:27. | :26:34. | |
the UK. Sir Stephen Wall? When Portugal emerged from dictatorship | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
in the 1970s, it was almost taken over by communism. Thanks to the | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
offer of membership of the EU, proper democracy, liberal democracy | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
was established in Portugal. The same thing happened in Spain. The | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
same thing has happen in the countries of Eastern and Central | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
Europe who weren't guaranteed after the fall of communism to become | :26:54. | :27:02. | |
stable democracies. Are we... It is a decision that everybody has to | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
make. One aspect of this debate is, do we think it is worthwhile in our | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
national interests supporting the stability and democracy of those | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
countries? That was the case I thought you were going to give, | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
Amber. Douglas Carswell... Are we seriously suggesting we are giving | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
?350 million every week to Brussels to stop communism in Portugal? We | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
are not giving ?350 million a week and on your point about the rebate | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
being vulnerable, Margaret Thatcher, your leader of the party you used to | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
belong to, when she negotiated it, she ensured it can only be changed | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
if we want it to be changed. Sometimes it is really funny how the | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
Remain side has come across as inward-looking. Amber talks about | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
how we need to have a level playing field for other people to be able to | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
take part, poorer countries, et cetera. You have said how it can be | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
a benevolent thing encouraging democracy abroad. If you look at | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
countries outside the EU, Bangladesh, that side of the world, | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
the EU doesn't look like a level playing field advocating nice clubs. | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
It likes like a cartel of rich countries. For years, the EU has | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
kept farmers completely out of this nice little club that we have here. | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
I don't really like hearing the Remain side saying, we are also | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
benevolent. For a lot of countries who are not part of the EU... | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
Commonwealth countries have privileged access to the EU market | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
and the EU is the world's largest overseas aid donor so we are | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
doing... Why can't we have trade rather than aid? We have 50 free | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
trade agreements around the world. I will give Minette a right of reply | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
on the specific allegation that we don't have much trade in agriculture | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
because it is true, farmers are an important lobby in the EU, and the | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
idea of free trade is like extracting teeth to get through... | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
Trade, whether we like it or not, is negotiated in blocks. That is a | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
fact. The South America countries, a deal has been on the table for 15 | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
years and what has held a lot of that back is the potential for | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
80,000 tonnes of beef to come on to our marketplace which the EU is | :29:37. | :29:44. | |
protecting and we will be doing the same in the UK. There is an element | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
of saying we can do it here well enough. We want to protect that. You | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
look at other trading blocks, the Pacific trading blocks you have USA, | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
Canada, New Zealand, all working together as a block. The Canadian | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
trade deal could seven years and there are still sensitive | :30:04. | :30:05. | |
agricultural products in there. Trade takes a long time to | :30:06. | :30:06. | |
negotiate. We've covered agriculture, there are | :30:07. | :30:15. | |
arguments to be had on that. Stephen gave us an interesting point about | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
stability in Europe. That's what we get by putting money in and | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
developing those eastern and Central European economies. Do you recognise | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
that or not? If you look at the growth rates in the eurozone they | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
have stability. I'm not sure that's the stability you want. That would | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
still be there if we weren't in the EU, the euro would still exist. Do | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
you think it's a good use of British public money to help economies in | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
Europe that are coming from fascism or Communism? No, I never think that | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
government to government subsidy is a good way of developing countries. | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
In you want to encourage development you have to encourage people to take | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
part in a network of specialisation and exchange called globalisation. | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
What the EU tends to do is subsidise the growth of big regulatory | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
restrict of bureaucracy. That's why the single market countries happen | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
to be the countries not growing particularly fast. Do you not think | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
that the EU has been good for the likes of Spain, Portugal, let's | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
leave Greece out of it for the time being. Indeed. Spain, Portugal and | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
the countries of eastern and Central Europe? If you're a young Spaniard | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
growing up today unemployment is sky high. Yes maybe 30 years ago, there | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
was a lot in it. But it's ultimately a question for Spanish people to | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
decide. I'm not sure that it's the benevolent force that many eurocrats | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
like to think of it as. Is that because of the euro specifically? | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
Everything from monetary policy to subsidies tend to go wrong. In not | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
one S size fits all. You look at the UK. Not in the eurozone. Out of the | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
Schengen zone. We can have the best of both worlds. The less Europe the | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
better. No, within the confines of the club each country can engage | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
with it as they choose to do so. It's difficult balance. But it's one | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
that protects our peace and prosperity. Audience, you've heard | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
the first half of this discussion about the budget, how the money is | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
spent. A lot on agriculture. A lot on poorer countries. Any thoughts? | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
Any responses to what we've heard? Let me ask you a question to warm | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
you up, how many feel it is good that British taxpayers, through the | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
EU give money to the development of countries in eastern and Central | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
Europe? You do basically. You were looking hesitant there. Don't be | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
pressured bit others. No, I had to think about it. I know you work for | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
a charity. Do you get money from the EU? Yes, we get donations from the | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
European social fund. That's helped us carry out our work in Britain. | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
Without that money, we would not be able to support as many vulnerable | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
people that we do. But you're only in the UK, as a charity? Yes. Why do | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
you get it from the European social fund? That's how it's distributed. | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
Wouldn't it be better if you just got it from the UK Government? I | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
guess the EU's made the social fund, it's made a priority. We support | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
vulnerable older people. The EU has made that a priority with the | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
Government, if the money wasn't there, would the Government make | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
older people the priority? The reason that regions and local | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
authorities compete for this money is because it includes counterpart | :33:42. | :33:43. | |
funding from the national Government. They don't believe, | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
probably rightly, they would get that funding were it not for the | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
framework of those projects. The fact that they have behind them, as | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
it were, the power of the European Union, gives them bargaining | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
strength of central Government. That's why they fight to keep this | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
money. I wonder how much of that funding will be available once | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia and Turkey join the EU. They can't join. | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
We spent ?2 billion preparing them to join. So I think they will. They | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
can't until they fill the cons, A, the ebbing no ammic conditions of | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
membership and democratic conditions of membership. Every member state | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
has to agree they will join. Let's call a halt to future expansion. | :34:27. | :34:28. | |
Let's move on. If the EU wants to be | :34:29. | :34:30. | |
thought of as well run, it doesn't just need | :34:31. | :34:32. | |
to spend money wisely. It needs institutions that | :34:33. | :34:34. | |
are effective, rational and efficient that focus | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
on the right things. Now here's the problem: often big | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
organisations are more bureaucratic They find it harder to be lean | :34:41. | :34:42. | |
and mean and on the case. They have to take account | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
of more competing interests. And let's face it, the EU is pretty | :34:49. | :34:50. | |
big, with its 508 million Well, we wanted to send John Sweeney | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
to Brussels to find out - but he chose to go to Strasbourg | :34:54. | :35:01. | |
instead. Bienvenue a la train | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
de sauce European. Or, in English, welcome | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
to the European gravy train. What's happening is so crazy it's | :35:14. | :35:38. | |
worth making the point again. Each month, the entire | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
European Parliament moves from Brussels to Strasbourg, | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
it is here for a week, and then moves all the way back | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
to Brussels in boxes like this. People say it is a fantastic | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
waste of time and money. This is the labrynth | :35:55. | :36:02. | |
where the elected representatives of half a billion people and 28 nation | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
states meet to talk euro shop. There's a simple problem, I don't | :36:06. | :36:20. | |
know what any of the MEPs look like. I don't know who they are. But we've | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
heard a tip-off that they wear their badges like this and they're blue. | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
What are we doing here and why aren't we in Brussels? Oh, that's a | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
good question. We should be in one place. Of course, it is a waste ever | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
money. Now that the European Union we have financial problems. The | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
Parliament has moved to Strasbourg for a week. Yes, yes. Is that a good | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
use of European taxpayers money. Not at all. The Strasbourg shuffle costs | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
the European taxpayer ?130 million a year. The euro MPs have voted | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
against the move, but they're blocked by a French veto. Hard wired | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
into the rule book of the EU. I track down a French MEP to challenge | :37:09. | :37:09. | |
him. - as best I can. For the critics Strasbourg is a | :37:10. | :37:53. | |
handy metaphor for the entire European project - over the top, | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
needlessly expensive and ever so very disconnected. Ukip's Mike | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
Hookham is one such. Here he is in the chamber, denouncing the folly, | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
as he sees it, of Europe's open-border policy. On the other | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
hand, you could argue this empire lets its critics have their say. | :38:13. | :38:22. | |
Afterwards, I track him down. Hi, John Sweeney from Newsnight. Mike | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
thinks the EU is a monster and so... At the moment, I'm campaigning to | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
make myself redundant on the 24th. There's a para-Dom there. How's -- | :38:32. | :38:39. | |
paradox there. How's it going? It's looking favourable at the moment. | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
Then I will slip back into obscurity, where I came from. Mike | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
takes me to his office, a room he barely inhabits. Oh, wow. This is | :38:49. | :38:59. | |
your empire. This is it. I've got another office in Brussels, | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
basically the same as this. If Britain must choose between Europe | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea. Do you agree | :39:08. | :39:15. | |
with that? Yes, I do actually. But for people like Mike, who think | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
that real clout lies with the European Union, not the nation | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
state, consider this paradox, that the only reason Europe goes to | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
Strasbourg every month is because of the power of one state to override | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
the wishes of Europe as a whole | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
John Sweeney in the European quarter of Brussels. | :39:41. | :39:42. | |
No-one accusing him of going native, I suspect. | :39:43. | :39:44. | |
Right, for the next part of the discussion - | :39:45. | :39:46. | |
does the EU work or not - a union so unwieldy that it can't | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
You were actually, because you report on these affairs, you were in | :39:51. | :39:59. | |
Strasbourg yourself last week, it? -- was it? Yes, the regular track to | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
Strasbourg, five-hour train ride, with all the trunks. I find it to be | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
fascinating the entire system, just because I come from the United | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
States and we're 50 states, but we're a federalist system. It takes | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
eight-and-a-half months to pass legislation through the House and | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
Senate. Whereas in the European Parliament with eight different | :40:24. | :40:25. | |
political parties, 28 different member states, it takes about 22 | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
months to get legislation to pass. It's a lot slower. It is more | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
bureaucratic in that sense. In a way, some will say that's great | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
because it means that you're not forced legislation that hasn't been | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
fully communicated, talked about, passed from the council to the | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
Parliament, but at the same time, I can see where there's a lot of | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
frustration when you're trying to be forward looking and entrepreneurial | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
and a forward-looking Europe, it seems like it's holding it back a | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
bit, because of all the compromise. What lesson do you take from the | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
fact that Europe can't sort out such a basic peace of -- piece of house | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
keeping as this ridiculous Strasbourg move, no-one supports it. | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
We certainly don't. It's about the political decision that's were made | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
at the time. That's why the French object to it now. It reflects the | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
fact that it's a compromise, the European Union. We have to look at | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
whether it works for the UK or not. It's right that we're doing that | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
now. There are elements of it that are imperfect to say the least. It's | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
interesting because one thing you might take from it is you just don't | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
want to create or be in such an unwieldy organisation. We don't have | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
to be in it. It is very unwieldy. We don't have to be in it. Don't we | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
have to weigh up what the benefits are? Why throw the baby out with the | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
bath water? This is imperfect, the business of going from Strasbourg to | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
Brussels, absolutely. Then you have to look at the report that treasure | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
gave us today -- treasury gave us today if we're out of the EU we | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
could have a 36 billion black hole. It's pros and cons. The UK doesn't | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
have a strong role in the European Parliament. The Tories are no longer | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
part of the largest political group. So they don't have the same sort of | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
power when they're trying to negotiate for these kind of, you | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
know, government wastes going on. The last Strasbourg I was at, they | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
spent time talking about how to create a gym inside the Parliament. | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
They're concerned with having their chauffeurs. The whole Parliament or | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
the Tories? I'm talking about the entire Parliament. If there was more | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
UK influence inside the Parliament, maybe some of this waste could be | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
effectively cut out. That's down to us. Dare I say it, it was David | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
Cameron who decided to take the Conservatives out of the largest | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
centre-right group. It's up to the electorate, who voted 24 Ukip MEPs | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
who take little part in the proceedings, and therefore aren't | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
representing the interests of their constituents. As a large member | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
state, we have 10% of the membership of the European Parliament. They | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
directly elected have co-responsibility in passing the | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
laws of the European Union. On those laws, the single market runs and we | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
have the social protections which are controversial, but nonetheless, | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
I would argue those protections are important for workers in Britain as | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
around the urine. What lesson do you take from this? This ridiculous need | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
to move to and fro illustrates how the European project is beholden to | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
vested interests. You know, Britain is only a very small minority voice | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
in these institutions. We've got less than 10% of the votes in the | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
European Parliament. We have 8% to 12%, depends on how you measure it, | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
of a say in the Council of ministers decisions. This is why we're | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
constantly outvoted. We don't have much of a say. We're a minority | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
voice in the ibs -- institutions. S no the the only organisation that -- | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
it's not the only organisation that wastes money and has these responses | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
to individual interests. I guess the question is - is it worse than | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
others? Tara, we come back to you. The United States know what's they | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
call pork barrel politics, which is you just waste a lot of money | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
because a senator can be persuaded to vote for a bill if he gets a | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
bridge in his town. You get many international organisations that are | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
wasteful, some might say the UN S the European Union is unique in | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
being an international institution that insists upon making | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
legislation, insists upon compulsion. It's not just about | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
cooperation. Is it worse and more wasteful than other large | :44:36. | :44:36. | |
institutions of the same type? I happen to represent an | :44:37. | :44:43. | |
organisation which thinks that the UK Government is pretty wasteful, | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
would like to cut out a lot more of the waste that is inherent in the | :44:47. | :44:53. | |
system. National Audit Office says the UK Government loses 0.02% of its | :44:54. | :45:03. | |
annual budget to fraud. For the EU, it is ten times than what it is in | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
the UK Government. That is one example that I have plucked out. I'm | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
not going into the... Your group believe the UK is wasting ?100 | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
billion a year? I don't think that is necessarily true. We do think | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
there is... It is ten times more, ten times more. It is 0.02% compared | :45:26. | :45:34. | |
to 0.2%. It is atrocious. The error rate in European spending is about | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
the same as the American federal budget, which is still too high. | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
Douglas says laws are forced on us. These are laws which are made by | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
elected ministers and directly-elected politicians. It | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
wasn't the European Parliament that had the duck house scandal. As for | :45:57. | :46:04. | |
this idea... Let's focus on that one. People do say that is because | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
there is less scrutiny and that is a rather good example. The scrutiny | :46:10. | :46:18. | |
comes from the European Court of Auditors, who have, since 2007, | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
signed off the accounts, always with qualification and the European | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
Commission takes action where mistakes have been made, or if there | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
is evidence of fraud. We have been on the side of getting what we want | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
in about 85% of legislation. You have been outvoted 72 times. Let's | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
take that figure, 85%. I thought it was 87%. Do you agree with that | :46:46. | :46:53. | |
figure that we were outvoted 12-15% of the time? We are easily the most | :46:54. | :47:02. | |
outvoted country in the EU. Do you buy what Stephen said? 72 times we | :47:03. | :47:13. | |
have been outvoted. Is it 85% or not? I don't know the answer to | :47:14. | :47:21. | |
that. The figure has gone up over time. Now, it is 12%. They are not | :47:22. | :47:29. | |
as politically strong... How can you quibble with the figure if you don't | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
know what the real figure is? I do know 72 times we have been outvoted. | :47:35. | :47:45. | |
Germany is outvoted 5% of the times. How often does it never go to a | :47:46. | :47:53. | |
vote? All because we persuaded other people that our way is the right | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
way. We are one of the most influenceal players on the EU. Tara, | :47:58. | :48:07. | |
sometimes we look at the US and think they can't even pass a budget. | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
You have lived in both. You look at both. Compare and contrast US | :48:13. | :48:19. | |
effectiveness to EU effectiveness? It is a lot of political bickering | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
back-and-forth. That is the US. It is all about politics. Here, it is | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
also about national interests and about politics and it's a lot about | :48:32. | :48:40. | |
money as well. There are eight political groups and there used to | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
be, the EPP and the SND, so those two groups used to be the strongest. | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
They are losing their power, so now it's a coalition. That is their only | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
way to push through legislation. They have to pre-cook everything. | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
They have this dinner once a week and they talk about what can we get | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
through the House because you have Ukip and the Euro-sceptic groups and | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
you also have the Liberals and the Tories so it is harder for them to | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
get a majority vote to push things through. So in a way it's become | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
like Washington in the sense that it's a lot of back-door dealings to | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
push things through. Is that not an inevitability of a large | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
organisation, do you buy that? I certainly buy that. Lobbyists love | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
it. Not sure it is a good thing, though. We have 28 different | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
countries trying to pull this off. No wonder it takes time. This is a | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
very ambitious project. But it does work. It does deliver benefits for | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
everybody involved. If you look at the things the European Union is now | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
focussed on, completing the single market in services that is an agenda | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
written in London. Everything that has been done on the environment, | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
absolutely supported and encouraged and led by successive British | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
Governments. Amber may correct me, but it looks as if the European | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
Union is developing an energy policy, building up our independence | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
from Russia, that is what Britain has been campaigning for. This | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
idea... I spent five years doing this stuff and we are in there every | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
single day pushing for our interests. If you make a good | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
argument and you work the system, then you can represent your national | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
interest in a really effective way. The UK and German co-author the most | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
legislation. The UK and German. Does that not suggest we are being rather | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
influenceal? Let's not take the word of diplomats who have spent their | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
lives immersing ourselves in the system. We have 10% of the votes in | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
the European Parliament. We have less than 12% of a share in the | :50:46. | :50:52. | |
votes of the European Council. We are continually finding key things | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
imposed on us, despite the fact that we find objectionable. If we vote to | :50:59. | :51:08. | |
remain, we have to put up with everything that comes our way. Your | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
campaign rubbishes people who are experts. The example that Stephen | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
gave, it will be able to deliver us lower prices and more secure energy. | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
Isn't that what British consumers want? UK energy costs are higher... | :51:25. | :51:33. | |
No! You are thinking of the climate change regulation, which is very | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
worrying... I'm not attacking the climate change agenda... The energy | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
union is a good example... Can I raise another point about the | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
democratic effectiveness. Amber Rudd, it must worry you, for | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
whatever money is spent, and however well the British argue their case, | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
the truth is, people don't really connect, do they, to the EU? The | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
vote in the European Parliament has diminished every election there's | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
been since 1979. I don't think most people will be able to name the | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
European political forces that Tara was talking about, the EPP, these | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
are completely remote. I suspect if I asked you to explain the | :52:20. | :52:29. | |
co-determination system for passing legislation... I'm obviously loving | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
to answer that question(!) If I told you the House of Lords prayed | :52:35. | :52:43. | |
against an SI one morning, not everybody would follow that. One of | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
the benefits that will come out of this campaign might be more | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
information for people who are involved in the EU and need to | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
understand more about it. I hope perhaps after this, after I hope we | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
all vote to remain, we can have a stronger involvement in the EU and | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
more clarity. The European Parliament is directly-elected by | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
the citizens. It doesn't have a Second Chamber unelected as we have | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
the House of Lords passing laws. The Commission is the unelected... The | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
European Commission propose legislation, they don't adopt | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
legislation. The legislation is adopted by elected ministers... The | :53:18. | :53:25. | |
only people in the system who can propose legislation, they are people | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
who were unelected at the ballot box. How can that be right? They are | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
appointed by governments who are elected. It is like the American | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
system... I'm sure Charles I would approve! The Americans elect | :53:42. | :53:49. | |
Presidents... No, they appoint their executive... The one body that | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
initiates legislation is unaccountable, that could be the | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
problem. The whole point of this construct was to balance the | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
interests of large and small, to ensure there was a body that would | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
look at the interests across-the-board. And to ensure the | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
small countries weren't bullied by the larger countries. You are right, | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
as somebody who wants to hold politicians to account, I know | :54:19. | :54:20. | |
working in Westminster that it is difficult enough to hold people like | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
Douglas and Amber to account. Nothing personal. Our system is bad | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
enough. All I'm hearing is, we have things that we need to correct in | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
our system. That doesn't mean I go and get yet another even more | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
complicated and more remote system into the equation and give up that | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
much control that I might or might not have over it. It doesn't make | :54:43. | :54:49. | |
sense to me. Sometimes I think they are purposefully obscure and opaque | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
and some of the language that they use is, like, not exactly... It is | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
difficult to understand. For anyone to understand. Douglas? Look | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
objectively at how the European project has failed to respond, it's | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
failed to respond to the economic challenges. It is a failing project | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
by any objective criteria. Do you think 28 disparate countries with no | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
Parliament, no Commission and no Council would have responded to | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
those shocks better than the system we have got at the moment? If you | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
look at what happened with monetary policy, having the ability to make | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
your own policy works better. If we want to take back control, that | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
would be much safer than if we remain part of this failing project. | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
Are you hoping the whole thing dismantles in the end? Are you | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
hoping there will be no EU? If I was Austrian or German, I might have a | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
different perspective. The safe thing to do is to take back control. | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
This is a failing project and it is failing because of these cumbersome | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
institutions. Can I come in there? We have talked about the | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
complexities of keeping all the EU member states together. You cannot - | :56:03. | :56:10. | |
the single market, we are the largest, most powerful trading bloc | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
in the world. If you trade... It is crucial to this argument. If you | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
take us out and we are negotiating that trade on our own, as a single | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
unit, it will be enormously challenging... We have a couple of | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
minutes. Essentially, the Remain side does come back to put up with a | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
lot of the imperfections. But, as ever, let's give the final | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
word to our undecided panel - some thoughts from you on what | :56:40. | :56:41. | |
you've been hearing this evening. We have talked about democratic | :56:42. | :56:50. | |
remoteness and decision-making effectiveness. Any feelings? To make | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
everything seem a little less complicated, things are coming down | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
to whether we want to focus our own power within our shores or to | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
leverage the power we have across Europe. I don't know if that is a | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
bad thing. Which side are you tipping towards? I'm tipping towards | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
being able to leverage across the EU. It will influence what happens | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
in our shores as well as around them. Yes? There is a way to get the | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
best of both worlds. That is what Lewis was saying. Leverage the power | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
of the EU, allow legislation to be done centrally but allow autonomy to | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
customise that for the local regions. We all use mobile phones. | :57:35. | :57:44. | |
Samsung develops them centrally and we configure them locally. So you | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
should be able to make legislation, laws, standards centrally within | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
configuration parameters where each of the 28 states can configure it. | :57:55. | :58:02. | |
Any others who have heard anything today who started out as a panel | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
rather cynical about Brussels and what it stood for. Any of you come | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
out of this discussion feeling more positive about the way Brussels... ? | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
What I have come to understand is, it is better to be in a stronger | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
union and be part of a union that can save Europe over a long time and | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
basically on the economy and try to do it that way rather than exiting | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
and going into unknown and not knowing what is going on in the | :58:33. | :58:33. | |
future. We are coming to the end. The mechanics of | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
the EU in discussion. It's amazing how little most people | :58:39. | :58:40. | |
understand about it - for the Remain side, | :58:41. | :58:41. | |
that means we have to get For the Leave side, it simply | :58:42. | :58:43. | |
tells us why the things But I'm afraid that's | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
all we have time for tonight. But you may have been wondering how | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
they reacted in Brussels when they heard that Boris Johnson | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
was comparing the European Union By pure good fortune, | :58:56. | :58:57. | |
the exact moment the news broke in the Commission Offices | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
WAS caught on camera. Hello. Time to get a check on the | :59:04. | :00:29. | |
weather for the next few days. The morning on Tuesday is not looking | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
bad at all. Plenty of sunshine there. The cloud will increase and | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
by the last part of the morning, into the afternoon, we are in for | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
some rain. So, after a wet start in Northern Ireland, the rain will come | :00:44. | :00:44. |