17/05/2016 Newsnight


17/05/2016

Orgreave and the police. Heseltine and Boris on Europe. Jung Chang on China. Magic mushrooms for depression. Plus our new nightly recipes slot (until it gets shut down).


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Tonight will the government give in to mounting pressure to hold

:00:09.:00:11.

a public inquiry into Orgreave, after the damning verdict

:00:12.:00:13.

on South Yorkshire police in the Hillsborough Inquiry?

:00:14.:00:21.

I don't know if I had out what but when the wagons came

:00:22.:00:27.

and I went to the front to shout I got a push in the and arrested. Put

:00:28.:00:33.

on a bus, smacked about a bit but not as bad as some people.

:00:34.:00:37.

I think the strain of the campaign is telling on him, his judgment is

:00:38.:00:50.

going! The shadow chancellor

:00:51.:00:54.

is here to share his great sadness Fifty years on from the Cultural

:00:55.:00:56.

revolution - is China horrified I'll be

:00:57.:01:01.

speaking to the author of Wild Swans, Jung Chang who lived

:01:02.:01:07.

through it AND also wrote And the BBC announced that recipes

:01:08.:01:10.

online were not for ever, then there was a bit of a flambe and now

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the recipes will be on the BBC's commercial food website,

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so to celebrate, welcome Tonight, linguini and mussels

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with slow cooked tomato Today the Home Secretary Theresa May

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told the Police Federation conference that the 1989

:01:27.:01:37.

Hillsborough disaster must be the "touchstone" for everything

:01:38.:01:39.

the police does. The Hillsborough report,

:01:40.:01:46.

which found that 96 fans who died had been "unlawfully

:01:47.:01:48.

killed", has given succour to the families of miners involved

:01:49.:01:51.

in the so called Battle of Orgreave with the same

:01:52.:01:53.

South Yorkshire police force They are demanding a public

:01:54.:01:55.

inquiry into those events, which led to 120 police and pickets

:01:56.:02:01.

injured and 93 arrests - calls that are being taken

:02:02.:02:04.

increasingly seriously John Sweeney spent the day

:02:05.:02:07.

at Rotherham in the shadow One police force, twice under

:02:08.:02:24.

suspicion. After the shame of Hillsborough, now South Yorkshire

:02:25.:02:27.

Police faces calls for an inquiry into what became known as the Battle

:02:28.:02:32.

of Orgreave. Fort here, 32 years ago. The narrative, as told by the

:02:33.:02:38.

South Yorkshire Police investigation, was the striking

:02:39.:02:41.

miners were pretty much on that bridge where those fancy new homes

:02:42.:02:46.

are being built. The police were down here and the miners were

:02:47.:02:51.

throwing rocks at the police lines. The police had no choice but to

:02:52.:02:57.

react. The police charged and so began the battle of Orgreave. Now

:02:58.:03:02.

there is a stack of evidence that that narrative simply is not true.

:03:03.:03:12.

June 18, 1984. Roughly 5000 striking miners tried to stop lorries

:03:13.:03:25.

carrying Koke going to steel mills. But they were outnumbered by 6000

:03:26.:03:30.

police officers. That day was about the most frightening day of my life

:03:31.:03:36.

because of the atmosphere. How would you describe the atmosphere that

:03:37.:03:41.

day? It was a different atmosphere on that day than any other picketing

:03:42.:03:47.

day. This was the biggest clash of the most political strike in modern

:03:48.:03:53.

times. The miners, led by their union president, Arthur Scargill,

:03:54.:03:57.

confronted the forces of the state, in ultimate command, Margaret

:03:58.:04:01.

Thatcher. She described the miners as the enemy within. One of those

:04:02.:04:08.

arrested, Kevin Horne, a miner from Mexborough, South Yorkshire. There

:04:09.:04:14.

was like a simple line of police, maybe a double line, along this

:04:15.:04:17.

playing field. I don't know if I had been picked out or what but when the

:04:18.:04:21.

wagons came and I went to the front to shout, I got a push in the back

:04:22.:04:30.

and arrested. Put on a bus, slapped about a little bit, like, but not as

:04:31.:04:35.

bad as some people, obviously. What we you accused of? I was accused of

:04:36.:04:42.

obstruction. And as the day went on, by the time we got to the

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Magistrates' by the time we got to the

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assembly. Landmark when by the time we got to the

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Orgreave pickets went to trial for riot the cases against

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Orgreave pickets went to trial for collapsed. And why was that?

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Collusion and fabrication of the words that come to mind. Colluding

:04:59.:05:04.

in a sense that officers got together, a group of officers

:05:05.:05:07.

decided that this was how the evidence would be drawn up. What

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they did when they drew this evidence Abbas to pre-face it,

:05:12.:05:16.

saying, we are out to win this. -- was to pre-face it. What were some

:05:17.:05:23.

of the phrases? I was part of a police support unit which was at

:05:24.:05:28.

Orgreave. We were told to report for duty. It was a bright summer's day

:05:29.:05:36.

and the scene was set with lines of police and lines of pickets,

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initially the mood was good but then it turned nasty and we were

:05:41.:05:43.

subjected to a hail of missiles and so forth and so on. It was identical

:05:44.:05:52.

for about 150 leads officers. -- police officers. There's a pattern

:05:53.:05:56.

here. Collusion and by South Yorkshire Police happened in the

:05:57.:06:02.

Hillsborough inquest. Some of the same officers involved in that

:06:03.:06:07.

disgrace were also involved in the failed Orgreave prosecutions. We've

:06:08.:06:10.

had a number of big issues in South Yorkshire. Child sexual

:06:11.:06:16.

exploitation, scandals in Rotherham, the Hillsborough inquest is now, and

:06:17.:06:21.

the verdicts have come in. The last of these three big issues is

:06:22.:06:26.

Orgreave. And in each case, it is essential, if we are going to

:06:27.:06:30.

rebuild trust and confidence in South Yorkshire Police, we need to

:06:31.:06:33.

know the truth about each of those. And that I think, is why we need to

:06:34.:06:38.

be Orgreave inquiry to happen quickly. What should happen is get

:06:39.:06:45.

to the bottom of Orgreave and draw a line and it and let the police start

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afresh. Because it is not fair for the bobby on the beat to be taking

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all this flak from 30 years ago. 30 years ago, the people arrested here

:06:58.:07:02.

ended up in the dock. Today, it is not the accused but their accusers

:07:03.:07:10.

who are facing the questions. Ayr John Sweeney.

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Joining me now is Vera Baird QC, who defended three of the accused

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Orgreave miners and is now Police and Crime Commissioner

:07:17.:07:18.

And Alex Marshall, former Chief Constable of Hampshire

:07:19.:07:21.

and now Chief Executive of the College of Policing.

:07:22.:07:23.

Good evening to you both. First of all, Vera Baird, why should there be

:07:24.:07:31.

a public inquiry, it is very different from Hillsborough in the

:07:32.:07:36.

sense that there were no deaths at Orgreave, there were deaths at

:07:37.:07:42.

Hillsborough. Obviously there is no comparison in that sense but in fact

:07:43.:07:47.

the Hillsborough deceptions, the changing of the 160 statements that

:07:48.:07:51.

the panel found a pair, were defending the police to try to cover

:07:52.:07:56.

their mistake. At Orgreave of course they were proactive, to discredit

:07:57.:08:00.

the miners. That is the only possible conclusion. The officers

:08:01.:08:06.

who were drilled by South Yorkshire Police to dictate the scene of riot

:08:07.:08:10.

or altering what one individual might have done, throw a stone, a

:08:11.:08:15.

petty offence, and turn it into the scene within which he was a

:08:16.:08:19.

participant in a riot because others were behaving in a disorderly way.

:08:20.:08:24.

That was dictated by a unit set up by the Chief Constable according to

:08:25.:08:28.

South Yorkshire Police's own reference to the IPC C. So it was a

:08:29.:08:33.

deliberate positive move whereas Hillsborough was merely defensive.

:08:34.:08:38.

There was much less violence at Orgreave van has been pretended,

:08:39.:08:44.

until, by pre-arrangement, the line split, the cavalry went out, the

:08:45.:08:47.

short shield squad followed behind and then there was a good deal of

:08:48.:08:52.

violence from the police and some reality show, there is no doubt of

:08:53.:08:57.

it. Wax to Mac the collaboration about dictating scene of riot that

:08:58.:09:03.

simply was not present at the time is where the resemblance is to

:09:04.:09:09.

Hillsborough. Alex Marshall, on that question of pre-arrangement,

:09:10.:09:12.

decisions made before the operation, you can look at that, whether it is

:09:13.:09:16.

Orgreave or anywhere else and see that is not good policing. It is not

:09:17.:09:23.

good policing if it has the outcome that plays out as you saw. And

:09:24.:09:28.

alongside the miners and the people supporting them whose injuries are

:09:29.:09:32.

clear on the footage there are also front-line police officers getting

:09:33.:09:35.

injured in the same scenario. I am very pleased that the way events of

:09:36.:09:40.

this type are planned by police now are substantially different, and

:09:41.:09:45.

quite rightly they are about public safety and planning carefully in

:09:46.:09:51.

advance, their contingency is not, as often characterised in Orgreave,

:09:52.:09:55.

being on one side and not another, that is not the role of the blaze,

:09:56.:10:00.

our role is to uphold the law. Yet that as we heard from former miners

:10:01.:10:08.

at Orgreave, is how it is seen, that minor in the report said that they

:10:09.:10:13.

needed to draw a line under it because it affects the bobby on the

:10:14.:10:17.

beat, this sense is so destructive that until you have a public

:10:18.:10:22.

inquiry, this will never end. I understand that, and the officers

:10:23.:10:26.

working on the front line in South Yorkshire, as we speak officers will

:10:27.:10:30.

be going out on night shift to protect their local communities,

:10:31.:10:33.

those officers work with the support of the people they protect. And this

:10:34.:10:38.

question of trust and confidence that still hangs around can of

:10:39.:10:44.

course be very damaging. If the Home Secretary decides to hold such an

:10:45.:10:48.

inquiry we would be very interested in the outcome of that inquiry in

:10:49.:10:52.

terms of the education we provide in policing and the standards that we

:10:53.:10:58.

set. The thing is, Vera Baird, do you see now that there is a new

:10:59.:11:02.

climate among policing, a new openness? Things have changed very

:11:03.:11:08.

much the South Yorkshire, Orgreave, or don't people see it like that? I

:11:09.:11:14.

think Alex is right. There is a great change. Three things have

:11:15.:11:18.

helped, the advent of police and crime commissioners not police, they

:11:19.:11:22.

are in the middle of what the police do and they can scrutinise it

:11:23.:11:24.

scrutinise it and it would be difficult for a conspiracy to arise.

:11:25.:11:29.

Also the officers are different, I think. Most now have experience as

:11:30.:11:34.

neighbourhood bullies. A Labour Party invention, terribly popular,

:11:35.:11:38.

people work with local communities as officers, are based there and

:11:39.:11:41.

become as loyal to the public in their community as they are to the

:11:42.:11:45.

police. There is no longer that ethic of police self interest that

:11:46.:11:50.

governs them and things are not of hierarchical and quasi military as

:11:51.:11:54.

in the days of Orgreave. I agree with that, yet remember as Alex

:11:55.:11:59.

said, policing depends on public consent and confidence. For many

:12:00.:12:04.

years after Orgreave had occurred, when their word jury trials in

:12:05.:12:09.

County Durham, where my clients came from, but when there were trials,

:12:10.:12:14.

the jury would do its duty yet when ever there was the word of one

:12:15.:12:17.

officer against one defendant they would never conflict. They lost

:12:18.:12:21.

faith in the police because they either had in their family, or they

:12:22.:12:24.

knew someone who had been at Orgreave or been treated similarly

:12:25.:12:30.

somewhere else. Let me put that question of trust to Alex Marshall.

:12:31.:12:35.

The figures are not great. In 2014, when more than 3000 allegations of

:12:36.:12:37.

police corruption were when more than 3000 allegations of

:12:38.:12:41.

action was taken in more than half the cases, indeed there is also

:12:42.:12:45.

evidence to show that officers believe that if they talk about

:12:46.:12:48.

corruption believe that if they talk about

:12:49.:12:49.

identities will not be protected. So believe that if they talk about

:12:50.:12:53.

there's a long way to go still on trust, is there not? There is but I

:12:54.:12:57.

would say three things help trust, is there not? There is but I

:12:58.:12:58.

in that sphere, we have a trust, is there not? There is but I

:12:59.:13:01.

ethics and policing to support those trust, is there not? There is but I

:13:02.:13:03.

professionals to make trust, is there not? There is but I

:13:04.:13:07.

and busy wrongdoing. Most of the role of the professional

:13:08.:13:12.

placing is to support the good hard working people in policing. We also

:13:13.:13:16.

keep a register of those dismissed from policing. The vast majority of

:13:17.:13:22.

keep a register of those dismissed that is what the code of

:13:23.:13:27.

keep a register of those dismissed officers don't

:13:28.:13:32.

keep a register of those dismissed whistle-blowing guidelines to allow

:13:33.:13:34.

people that production, should they report wrongdoing within policing.

:13:35.:13:41.

The EU referendum campaign has been tetchy from the start,

:13:42.:13:45.

increasingly bad tempered and now the in-fighting - at least

:13:46.:13:48.

in the Tory party - seems to be reaching a crescendo.

:13:49.:13:53.

Shadow Chancellor John McDonald got into the debate today, arguing that

:13:54.:13:58.

the campaign has been negative and accusing the Tories of peddling the

:13:59.:14:00.

politics of despair. Today Lord Heseltine

:14:01.:14:01.

weighed into Boris Johnson, describing his comparison

:14:02.:14:03.

of the ideals of the EU, to Hitler's plan for a European

:14:04.:14:05.

superstate as "preposterous I think the strain of the campaign

:14:06.:14:07.

is beginning to tell on him. And before that, we had the

:14:08.:14:12.

near-racist allegations This is the most serious

:14:13.:14:23.

decision Britain has faced in a generation

:14:24.:14:27.

and it is descending into Our political editor

:14:28.:14:29.

Nick Watt is with me. What do you make of the Heseltine

:14:30.:14:38.

intervention? The Tory infighting has really reached a new low with

:14:39.:14:41.

that personal attack on Boris Johnson by Michael Heseltine. Why

:14:42.:14:45.

did Downing Street think it would be a good idea to put Michael Heseltine

:14:46.:14:50.

up? Two broad reasons. One Boris Johnson is an easy target, a member

:14:51.:14:54.

of the political cabinet but not the full cabinet. The second, they

:14:55.:14:59.

believed that the spats he is getting into our process,

:15:00.:15:02.

personality, and if you talk about process and personality in a

:15:03.:15:05.

referendum, like Alex Salmond did, you lose. You need to talk about

:15:06.:15:09.

substance. It is important to say that the league campaign believe

:15:10.:15:12.

that the prime ministers reached a new level of absurdity today when he

:15:13.:15:16.

said that the leader of Isis would be very happy if Britain left of the

:15:17.:15:21.

European Union. So who is the one they are really worried about? They

:15:22.:15:23.

are most concerned about Michael Gove. They believe that he has not

:15:24.:15:27.

been particularly straightforward with them. They believe that he has

:15:28.:15:32.

been particularly aggressive in his attacks on some areas of government

:15:33.:15:36.

policy and that is ironic because tomorrow we will see a Queen's

:15:37.:15:39.

Speech in which the Prime Minister sets out his vision for the post

:15:40.:15:43.

referendum period, to be the great Tory social reformer. And which

:15:44.:15:46.

minister will be at the heart of that with a reform programme?

:15:47.:15:50.

Michael Gove. One area we will have to wait for is the human bill of

:15:51.:15:55.

rights, which is not quite ready. It will be signposted tomorrow but we

:15:56.:15:59.

will not see it. On the face of it this gives Labour, in the form of

:16:00.:16:02.

the Shadow chancellor, and more. It does indeed and we had a full

:16:03.:16:08.

throated endorsement of a senior Labour figure, which is unheard of,

:16:09.:16:14.

even in the days were Gordon Brown used to duff up the European Union.

:16:15.:16:19.

Why is John McDonnell so pro European? Two reasons, once it could

:16:20.:16:23.

be Labour voters who decide the referendum. If it is Tory

:16:24.:16:26.

infighting, they might be switched off. Secondly, in the aftermath,

:16:27.:16:30.

they do not want Labour in the north-west of England to suffer the

:16:31.:16:35.

fate of the Labour party in Scotland.

:16:36.:16:37.

Joining me now is the shadow chancellor John McDonnell.

:16:38.:16:40.

You spoke about never sharing a platform with the Tories on this

:16:41.:16:46.

campaign. Even if it would mean squeezing that last drop of Remain a

:16:47.:16:52.

voter, you would not share a platform? We have seen what has

:16:53.:16:57.

happened within the Tory Party. It is like a pub brawl. I think they

:16:58.:17:00.

are demeaning the debate. I think they have lost control of this

:17:01.:17:04.

debate. The people on the doorstep are saying time and time again, we

:17:05.:17:09.

just want the facts, we want your vision for Europe. And they want a

:17:10.:17:13.

considered debate. That is why I do not want to have anything to do with

:17:14.:17:17.

this debate. We will talk about divisions in a moment but I would

:17:18.:17:21.

like to say one more time, and imagine it is incredibly close and

:17:22.:17:25.

you have to make a last push. Are you so concerned about keeping away

:17:26.:17:30.

from the Tories, for history, not least Scotland, so concerned about

:17:31.:17:33.

keeping away from them that they would not share a platform and say,

:17:34.:17:37.

we will put our differences aside because we believe so strongly in

:17:38.:17:41.

the European Union? You would not even do that? It would not work, it

:17:42.:17:46.

would turn people off. Any association with what is going on

:17:47.:17:49.

with the Tory Party is turning people off. The people we need to

:17:50.:17:53.

get out the vote are voters and young people. But don't you think,

:17:54.:17:57.

the very thing you are saying is that people want to see vision. And

:17:58.:18:02.

even if you have different within Europe, what you are actually saying

:18:03.:18:07.

is that even if people want me to stand on that club run -- platform,

:18:08.:18:14.

I will not do it because of my own politics. Not at all. You are not

:18:15.:18:18.

listening. It would be counter-productive. I want to win

:18:19.:18:21.

the debate and I want us to remain within Europe. Any association with

:18:22.:18:25.

the Tory brawl would undermine that ability to win the debate. Moving on

:18:26.:18:30.

to talk about labour in the north-east. A lot of the problems

:18:31.:18:34.

you have in the north-east, a lot of Labour supporters have become very

:18:35.:18:37.

Eurosceptic over the issue of jobs. And yet today, for perhaps the very

:18:38.:18:42.

first time, we have heard a member of the Labour leadership giving a

:18:43.:18:47.

full throated endorsement to the free movement of people. Shall I

:18:48.:18:52.

tell you why? Because the free movement of people is a condition of

:18:53.:18:55.

being part of the EU and part of that single market that we so

:18:56.:19:00.

desperately need. In the north-east, it is interesting you mentioned the

:19:01.:19:04.

north-east because that is where many car manufacturers in particular

:19:05.:19:07.

have been developed. The reason it has been developed there is because

:19:08.:19:12.

of the debasing of the UK market overall. Protecting jobs is key. If

:19:13.:19:19.

you understand Labour members' fears of immigration is... Of course I do.

:19:20.:19:23.

We did a programme from Boston and we were told by people they are,

:19:24.:19:27.

Labour supporters, that this is a disaster for them and their children

:19:28.:19:31.

and we will not get jobs. Of course I understand their concerns but we

:19:32.:19:34.

have to have a rational debate and that is why I am worried about

:19:35.:19:37.

Project fear from both sides of the Conservative party. It is not

:19:38.:19:42.

allowing rational debate on things like immigration because the issue

:19:43.:19:45.

around immigration is one we have to address. But the issues around jobs

:19:46.:19:49.

and housing and public services is because of a government failure, a

:19:50.:19:53.

Tory government failure. But with respect, you cannot issue the

:19:54.:19:57.

immigration issue within the EU because you have signed up for free

:19:58.:20:00.

movement. It is not about immigration. It is about arguing the

:20:01.:20:05.

case that signing up to the free movement of people allows people to

:20:06.:20:10.

go to Europe and have jobs. It does mean people coming here at a time

:20:11.:20:14.

when we need them in our economy to grow the economy, which will then

:20:15.:20:17.

enable us to have jobs for everybody. You called the European

:20:18.:20:21.

Union a superstate based on capitalism. You have consistently

:20:22.:20:24.

voted against further integration and you were one of the biggest

:20:25.:20:30.

banes of Tony Blair's life as an EU rebel. Can you put your hand on your

:20:31.:20:34.

heart and say that you truly back the EU? Let me be clear of what I

:20:35.:20:38.

have been saying consistently. I believe we should be within Europe

:20:39.:20:42.

but I do not believe the European institutions, as it stands,

:20:43.:20:45.

functions effectively. It needs to be more open and democratic so I am

:20:46.:20:49.

campaigning to remain within Europe, within the EU, but to reform the EU.

:20:50.:20:51.

I want to put a quote to you. It is easier for people to imagine

:20:52.:21:08.

the end of the earth than the end of capitalism. That is what we are

:21:09.:21:10.

about. That sounds like the John McDonnell that we know. That is a

:21:11.:21:13.

quote from a guy called Jamieson. Which I quoted in an article in the

:21:14.:21:16.

New Yorker. I want to transform our system. I do not believe that

:21:17.:21:17.

capitalism serves the system. I do not believe that

:21:18.:21:21.

of capitalism? I want to transform the system, which means adapting

:21:22.:21:29.

capitalism. We need to change the European system

:21:30.:21:32.

capitalism. We need to change the and democratic

:21:33.:21:34.

capitalism. We need to change the stranglehold. So you want to

:21:35.:21:37.

capitalism. We need to change the in the same club

:21:38.:21:42.

capitalism. We need to change the Goldman Sachs? And I want to

:21:43.:21:42.

challenge their Goldman Sachs? And I want to

:21:43.:21:47.

European Union at the moment, an economic policy, it means you are

:21:48.:21:51.

shouting down the letterbox. You will not be in their negotiating,

:21:52.:21:52.

you will not be working will not be in their negotiating,

:21:53.:21:57.

other social Democratic parties and progressive movements to transform

:21:58.:22:06.

Europe. To work for the end of capitalism? To transform capitalism,

:22:07.:22:08.

working for our economic system. Let's talk about anti-Semitism.

:22:09.:22:09.

First, Baroness Janet Royle was looking into anti-Semitism at Oxford

:22:10.:22:15.

and she said that Labour members who are guilty of anti-Semitism should

:22:16.:22:19.

not be out of the party for life. What is your view? I took a strong

:22:20.:22:21.

view on this. I What is your view? I took a strong

:22:22.:22:25.

serious enough, I do not want these people to be members of our party.

:22:26.:22:29.

So we have a difference of view. I think any form of racism now,

:22:30.:22:33.

wherever it is, particularly within our party, we have to be extremely

:22:34.:22:38.

wherever it is, particularly within in the future. She has written this

:22:39.:22:39.

that will report so presumably

:22:40.:22:50.

that will to our national executive committee

:22:51.:22:54.

and it will influence policy in the future. Let's

:22:55.:22:56.

and it will influence policy in the Livingstone. Can he ever be a member

:22:57.:22:57.

of the party again? I do not want to process that he will need to go

:22:58.:23:01.

through. But you are saying process that he will need to go

:23:02.:23:03.

cannot be a member of the party. process that he will need to go

:23:04.:23:08.

Everybody has to have a fair process. I cannot influence that

:23:09.:23:12.

process in advance, whether it is Ken Livingstone or any other member.

:23:13.:23:16.

I cannot do that. I have made my view absolutely clear on what I feel

:23:17.:23:21.

about anti-Semitism and if someone is being anti-Semitic within our

:23:22.:23:25.

party, I have made my view clear. It is for due process within our party

:23:26.:23:29.

and the real authorities to judge. As you say yourself, these

:23:30.:23:33.

committees will be As you say yourself, these

:23:34.:23:37.

entirely. So if they are entirely independent, then you can say what

:23:38.:23:40.

you want right now and it will have no impact on the committee. Whatever

:23:41.:23:44.

I say now we'll have some influence and I do not want to prejudge

:23:45.:23:50.

Fifty years ago, when Mao Zedong unleashed millions of China's

:23:51.:23:52.

youth to attack parents, teachers institutions,

:23:53.:23:54.

temples, the Party itself, they set out to destroy the very

:23:55.:23:57.

The Red Guard persecuted 36 million people and killed more

:23:58.:24:06.

than a million as Mao pursued his cult of personality.

:24:07.:24:09.

In a moment I'll be speaking to the author of one

:24:10.:24:11.

of the best-selling books of all time, Wild Swans,

:24:12.:24:13.

whose family lived through the Cultural Revolution, but first -

:24:14.:24:16.

The great proletarian Cultural Revolution.

:24:17.:24:34.

Its stated aim, to wipe out the four olds.

:24:35.:24:36.

Old customs, old culture, old habits, and old ideas.

:24:37.:24:47.

To that end, Mao unleashed his Red Guards, bands of zealous students

:24:48.:24:50.

sent out to beat their elders into submission.

:24:51.:24:55.

But the real aim was not culture but politics.

:24:56.:24:58.

The Cultural Revolution was a purge of Mao's enemies at the top

:24:59.:25:01.

It resulted in years of violence and terror.

:25:02.:25:04.

Today, China is a very different place.

:25:05.:25:08.

Maoism has been replaced by capitalism, known

:25:09.:25:10.

euphemistically as socialism with Chinese characteristics.

:25:11.:25:23.

And yet, the Communist Party that provided over the cultural

:25:24.:25:28.

Just as in Mao's day, there are still power struggles

:25:29.:25:32.

Purges now happen in the courtroom, not as lynches

:25:33.:25:46.

But they are purges nonetheless.

:25:47.:25:55.

Some old habits have survived.

:25:56.:25:58.

Just as in Mao's day, official policy is enunciated

:25:59.:26:00.

Yesterday, on the 50th anniversary of the start of the

:26:01.:26:04.

Cultural Revolution, it was silent on the matter.

:26:05.:26:06.

But today an editorial in the People's Daily calls

:26:07.:26:08.

the Cultural Revolution huge disaster, one which

:26:09.:26:10.

The lessons of history, it says, have given China asserting

:26:11.:26:13.

"Nobody", it concludes, "fears turmoil and desires

:26:14.:26:16.

Jung Chang is the author of Wild Swans and also

:26:17.:26:19.

First of all, in Wild Swans you write about three generations living

:26:20.:26:27.

through the cultural Revolution. Can you explain how bad it was? Well, I

:26:28.:26:35.

was 14 when the cultural Revolution started in 1966. Schools were

:26:36.:26:43.

closed. There was no schooling, and children were encouraged to attack

:26:44.:26:45.

their teachers. I saw my teacher being tortured, subjected to

:26:46.:26:52.

gigantic denunciation meetings, being beaten up. I saw fellow pupils

:26:53.:27:02.

trying to commit suicide. It was a nightmare. But for your own family,

:27:03.:27:10.

what happened? Well, my parents were victims of the Cultural Revolution.

:27:11.:27:15.

My father was one of the few who spoke out against the violence. As a

:27:16.:27:22.

result, he was arrested, tortured, driven insane. And he was exiled to

:27:23.:27:26.

a camp and died maturely and tragically. My mother was under

:27:27.:27:34.

pressure to denounce my father but she refused. So she was subject to

:27:35.:27:41.

over 100 of these ghastly enunciation meetings. Basically, the

:27:42.:27:47.

victims were stood on the platform, facing a hysterical crowd. My

:27:48.:27:52.

mother's arms, like other victims, were twisted to the back, and she

:27:53.:27:57.

was kicked and beaten. Did you witness this? Yes, we all saw this.

:27:58.:28:02.

People of my generation have all seen this. And have been brutalised.

:28:03.:28:08.

And you still feel that, you still feel that part of you has been

:28:09.:28:13.

scarred by it? I feel that yes, I feel strongly. In a way, I am very

:28:14.:28:18.

lucky as I was able to read a book about it. I wrote Wild Swans and I

:28:19.:28:24.

turned the trauma into memory, so I can talk to you about it. But I

:28:25.:28:30.

wonder, the people of your age now, the people that are 14, 15 now,

:28:31.:28:37.

unless they have read Wild Swans, where will they get any information

:28:38.:28:40.

about it? What do young Chinese people know about the Cultural

:28:41.:28:44.

Revolution? Basically, not much. Because my books are banned in

:28:45.:28:51.

China. Like other books of a kind. There are people who are saying

:28:52.:28:57.

these mindless things in favour of the Cultural Revolution. Things that

:28:58.:29:03.

do not get banned. A lot of people do not really know what happened.

:29:04.:29:09.

The really curious ones can search the internet, trying to climb over

:29:10.:29:14.

the firewall, but many others just don't know. And I wonder what you

:29:15.:29:19.

think about the future in China, whether you would think China would

:29:20.:29:24.

ever move to a 1-party state, or do you think that this idea of economic

:29:25.:29:30.

advancement and a 1-party state will continue because people are just too

:29:31.:29:34.

frightened of change? I am afraid it is going to continue for a long

:29:35.:29:41.

time, and basically I think that most people, if you ask them, they

:29:42.:29:47.

would say that democracy is a good idea. But most people would also

:29:48.:29:52.

fear what might happen in transition, whether they might be

:29:53.:29:56.

getting something worse than they got today. But that is almost not

:29:57.:30:04.

the issue. I think the issue is that there should be an open discussion

:30:05.:30:10.

about the Cultural Revolution, because the Communist Party itself

:30:11.:30:18.

has categorically rejected it. Finally. After chairman now died. --

:30:19.:30:29.

Chairman Mao died. I think that is the real issue. From my point of

:30:30.:30:33.

view, I would like to see my books published in China. Thank you very

:30:34.:30:34.

much. The psychedelic sixties

:30:35.:30:37.

as celebrated by writers such as Tom Wolfe in

:30:38.:30:39.

The Electric Cool Aid Acid Test, featuring Ken Kesey,

:30:40.:30:42.

and the poetry of Allen Ginsberg are all a half a century ago

:30:43.:30:44.

now, but psychedelia Researchers at Imperial College

:30:45.:30:46.

have, for the first time today, published the results of a trial

:30:47.:30:53.

into psilocybin and its effects The substance is the 'magic'

:30:54.:30:55.

element in magic mushrooms Doctors believe it could have

:30:56.:31:01.

medicinal qualities. The only slight problem is,

:31:02.:31:09.

it's a banned substance. In an ordinary hospital

:31:10.:31:11.

room, something very out Step by step, it's being transformed

:31:12.:31:17.

into a psychedelic lounge. Over the last 12 months,

:31:18.:31:29.

patients with severe drug resistant depression have been brought

:31:30.:31:33.

into this room and given a strong and illegal hallucinogenic,

:31:34.:31:39.

psilocybin, the active ingredient In charge of this radical new drug

:31:40.:31:41.

trial is scientist Robin So the room has been transformed

:31:42.:31:47.

from a bog-standard hospital room We're trying to provide

:31:48.:31:52.

a setting that is supportive, warm, nurturing, where the patient

:31:53.:32:03.

can feel safe and supported, and free and able to

:32:04.:32:07.

open up, really. This is one of a number of recent

:32:08.:32:12.

trials reviving some of the most controversial psychiatric research

:32:13.:32:16.

of the 1950s and 1960s. After receiving a small dose of LSD,

:32:17.:32:20.

they're confused and undisciplined. Around 40,000 patients

:32:21.:32:24.

worldwide were treated with psychedelics for everything

:32:25.:32:26.

from alcoholism to schizophrenia. That all stopped when governments

:32:27.:32:33.

around the world began Half a century later,

:32:34.:32:37.

and doctors are tentatively picking up this research,

:32:38.:32:43.

with around a dozen trials now worldwide beginning to explore

:32:44.:32:46.

medical uses of psychedelics. Andrew Thayer was one of 20

:32:47.:32:50.

patients on the trial. He's struggled with depression

:32:51.:32:54.

for two decades. It's hard to describe

:32:55.:32:59.

the hopelessness that you feel I got to a place last November

:33:00.:33:01.

where I had pretty much given up, I thought, I just can't

:33:02.:33:19.

do this any more. He found out about the trial

:33:20.:33:21.

online and applied. That is how, three months ago,

:33:22.:33:23.

he found himself in a hospital room in West London, being given

:33:24.:33:28.

a Class A psychedelic drug. Roz Watts is a clinical psychologist

:33:29.:33:37.

who helps guide patients I was surprised at the level of his

:33:38.:33:40.

suffering because when we met him he was so charming and sensitive

:33:41.:33:44.

to other people's needs and so great at conversation

:33:45.:33:47.

that it was difficult to see the suffering at first, but we did

:33:48.:33:54.

see it in the dosing days. We realised how much he had

:33:55.:33:57.

been struggling against. It started off fairly pleasantly,

:33:58.:34:14.

but it soon got pretty dark. I described it as a

:34:15.:34:21.

black tide coming in. Often with psychedelics,

:34:22.:34:30.

emotions and difficult experiences that have been repressed

:34:31.:34:32.

because they are so uncomfortable And that can be very healthy

:34:33.:34:35.

and very positive in terms of change because avoidance of difficult

:34:36.:34:47.

emotion is really at the heart Roz said, just concentrate on this

:34:48.:34:50.

rose, and she picked up the rose This rose had taken on a life

:34:51.:35:10.

of its own, and was definitely trying to communicate that

:35:11.:35:17.

everything is fine, beautiful. It's worth saying that patients had

:35:18.:35:23.

a variety of different experiences It was unclear at the time

:35:24.:35:26.

what long-term effect Today, scientists published

:35:27.:35:31.

their results in the Lancet. So these are the results

:35:32.:35:38.

from the study so far, This is a measure of the severity

:35:39.:35:41.

of patients' depression. You can see one week

:35:42.:35:55.

post-treatment, you can see that virtually every

:35:56.:35:59.

patient shows some decrease But the results do look much more

:36:00.:36:01.

mixed when you go past one week. When you go past three months,

:36:02.:36:05.

there are patients that are kind That's right, and so we are seeing

:36:06.:36:08.

signs of relapse in That's quite common in depression,

:36:09.:36:13.

particularly treatment It tells us really that this

:36:14.:36:21.

isn't a magic cure. Even so, if we were to take average

:36:22.:36:25.

scores, even up to three months and six months post-treatment,

:36:26.:36:29.

the really is quite a highly significant decrease

:36:30.:36:31.

in depressive tendencies. The researchers believe that

:36:32.:36:32.

psilocybin increases the It's speculated that in depression

:36:33.:36:34.

the brain gets stuck into repetitive negative

:36:35.:36:42.

patterns of thinking. So if we can introduce

:36:43.:36:44.

a kind of flexibility into the mind and into the brain,

:36:45.:36:47.

then perhaps that can help us shift an individual out of that rut

:36:48.:36:51.

that they have become stuck in. The problem is at this stage

:36:52.:36:56.

and this is only a theory. On the study itself is not

:36:57.:36:59.

without its difficulties. There is an ethical issue here,

:37:00.:37:01.

isn't there, of taking people who are very severely depressed,

:37:02.:37:03.

taking them off antidepressants, giving them a Class A drug and then

:37:04.:37:11.

not giving them the therapy If they decide to come

:37:12.:37:14.

off their medication, We closely monitor them,

:37:15.:37:17.

and we stay in contact with their mental health

:37:18.:37:21.

practitioner or GP. I think people should consider

:37:22.:37:24.

that if ever they think, I want to go out and find some magic

:37:25.:37:27.

mushrooms, and I have to come In the context of this

:37:28.:37:31.

trial, the way we did Three months after Andy's trial,

:37:32.:37:38.

and he is still coming to terms I think what I am experiencing

:37:39.:37:42.

are after-shocks. Because even now, I will have good

:37:43.:37:49.

days and bad days but some of the good days are outnumbering

:37:50.:37:54.

the bad days and I am And I wouldn't have

:37:55.:37:57.

thought that was possible. On the whole, I think it has

:37:58.:38:02.

moved me into a different direction. It has kicked me out

:38:03.:38:05.

of the rut, as it were. Andy believes that psilocybin has

:38:06.:38:11.

benefited him but the trial, by clinical standards,

:38:12.:38:16.

is tiny and researchers admit that much more evidence is needed before

:38:17.:38:18.

they can be sure of the effects Another larger trial

:38:19.:38:21.

is planned, but this kind It's unlikely then, that your local

:38:22.:38:25.

GP will be able to prescribe There was a lot of apron wringing

:38:26.:38:29.

about the BBC's announcement today that 11,000 recipes would be excised

:38:30.:38:43.

from the website and new ones Such was the brouhaha

:38:44.:38:46.

that the BBC changed the plan. Now they're saying that most

:38:47.:38:51.

of the recipes will now appear To celebrate, we've come up

:38:52.:38:53.

with our own contribution... I am now cooking very quickly some

:38:54.:39:14.

linguine with spicy tomato sauce and mussels. I would just like to tell

:39:15.:39:17.

you that I have been cooking these tomatoes with red and Ian, chilli

:39:18.:39:22.

and garlic for the duration of the programme. They are almost ready. To

:39:23.:39:27.

finish them off I will add some tinned tomatoes to give moisture and

:39:28.:39:32.

on the right-hand side I cooking up fresh linguini. I'm going to make

:39:33.:39:40.

sure these are well mixed in. Then with the mussels I have cooked them

:39:41.:39:45.

in white wine and spring onion and I have shelled all of them except for

:39:46.:39:49.

some which I will use for garnish. Now I am going to pop this straight

:39:50.:39:58.

into here. The important thing is to whiz it up. I appear not to have

:39:59.:40:05.

anyone from Masterchef to help me. I will put it here and I will with

:40:06.:40:15.

this up. Just to make sure it does not splutter any of the crew. I will

:40:16.:40:25.

just keep this going, to get all that, I quite like a bit of texture

:40:26.:40:30.

in it. That great word, texture! That is just about done. So now what

:40:31.:40:36.

I am going to do is strain my linguini. Brilliant. I'm going to

:40:37.:40:46.

put my linguini in here. And once that is fully... I'm just going to

:40:47.:40:49.

mix this straight into my tomato sauce. I'm going to mix it up and

:40:50.:40:57.

I'm going to add my mussels, like so. This is quite quick, easy dish

:40:58.:41:01.

to do. And then, first so. This is quite quick, easy dish

:41:02.:41:08.

little into the plate and so. This is quite quick, easy dish

:41:09.:41:13.

Jung Chang if she would like to have some. This looks messy and would not

:41:14.:41:19.

pass the test. I'm going to put a little on here and garnish it with a

:41:20.:41:23.

couple of mussels and I am going to give Jung Chang a little linguini

:41:24.:41:31.

with mussels. Spicy! Not beautifully served. Wonderful, wonderful, this

:41:32.:41:37.

is my dinner! If you like the recipe right in with a stamped addressed

:41:38.:41:42.

envelope for my tomato spiced linguini with mussels and a little

:41:43.:41:44.

parsley for garnish. OK? Good evening, Wednesday will be very

:41:45.:42:06.

changeable, threatening clouds never far away, the chance of catching

:42:07.:42:12.

changeable, threatening clouds never across England,

:42:13.:42:15.

With Kirsty Wark. Orgreave and the police. Heseltine and Boris on Europe. Jung Chang on China. Magic mushrooms for depression. Plus our new nightly recipes slot (until it gets shut down).


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