Browse content similar to 17/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight will the government give in to mounting pressure to hold | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
a public inquiry into Orgreave, after the damning verdict | :00:12. | :00:13. | |
on South Yorkshire police in the Hillsborough Inquiry? | :00:14. | :00:21. | |
I don't know if I had out what but when the wagons came | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
and I went to the front to shout I got a push in the and arrested. Put | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
on a bus, smacked about a bit but not as bad as some people. | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
I think the strain of the campaign is telling on him, his judgment is | :00:38. | :00:50. | |
going! The shadow chancellor | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
is here to share his great sadness Fifty years on from the Cultural | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
revolution - is China horrified I'll be | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
speaking to the author of Wild Swans, Jung Chang who lived | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
through it AND also wrote And the BBC announced that recipes | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
online were not for ever, then there was a bit of a flambe and now | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
the recipes will be on the BBC's commercial food website, | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
so to celebrate, welcome Tonight, linguini and mussels | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
with slow cooked tomato Today the Home Secretary Theresa May | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
told the Police Federation conference that the 1989 | :01:27. | :01:37. | |
Hillsborough disaster must be the "touchstone" for everything | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
the police does. The Hillsborough report, | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
which found that 96 fans who died had been "unlawfully | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
killed", has given succour to the families of miners involved | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
in the so called Battle of Orgreave with the same | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
South Yorkshire police force They are demanding a public | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
inquiry into those events, which led to 120 police and pickets | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
injured and 93 arrests - calls that are being taken | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
increasingly seriously John Sweeney spent the day | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
at Rotherham in the shadow One police force, twice under | :02:08. | :02:24. | |
suspicion. After the shame of Hillsborough, now South Yorkshire | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
Police faces calls for an inquiry into what became known as the Battle | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
of Orgreave. Fort here, 32 years ago. The narrative, as told by the | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
South Yorkshire Police investigation, was the striking | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
miners were pretty much on that bridge where those fancy new homes | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
are being built. The police were down here and the miners were | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
throwing rocks at the police lines. The police had no choice but to | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
react. The police charged and so began the battle of Orgreave. Now | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
there is a stack of evidence that that narrative simply is not true. | :03:03. | :03:12. | |
June 18, 1984. Roughly 5000 striking miners tried to stop lorries | :03:13. | :03:25. | |
carrying Koke going to steel mills. But they were outnumbered by 6000 | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
police officers. That day was about the most frightening day of my life | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
because of the atmosphere. How would you describe the atmosphere that | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
day? It was a different atmosphere on that day than any other picketing | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
day. This was the biggest clash of the most political strike in modern | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
times. The miners, led by their union president, Arthur Scargill, | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
confronted the forces of the state, in ultimate command, Margaret | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
Thatcher. She described the miners as the enemy within. One of those | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
arrested, Kevin Horne, a miner from Mexborough, South Yorkshire. There | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
was like a simple line of police, maybe a double line, along this | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
playing field. I don't know if I had been picked out or what but when the | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
wagons came and I went to the front to shout, I got a push in the back | :04:22. | :04:30. | |
and arrested. Put on a bus, slapped about a little bit, like, but not as | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
bad as some people, obviously. What we you accused of? I was accused of | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
obstruction. And as the day went on, by the time we got to the | :04:43. | :04:44. | |
Magistrates' by the time we got to the | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
assembly. Landmark when by the time we got to the | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
Orgreave pickets went to trial for riot the cases against | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
Orgreave pickets went to trial for collapsed. And why was that? | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
Collusion and fabrication of the words that come to mind. Colluding | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
in a sense that officers got together, a group of officers | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
decided that this was how the evidence would be drawn up. What | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
they did when they drew this evidence Abbas to pre-face it, | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
saying, we are out to win this. -- was to pre-face it. What were some | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
of the phrases? I was part of a police support unit which was at | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
Orgreave. We were told to report for duty. It was a bright summer's day | :05:29. | :05:36. | |
and the scene was set with lines of police and lines of pickets, | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
initially the mood was good but then it turned nasty and we were | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
subjected to a hail of missiles and so forth and so on. It was identical | :05:44. | :05:52. | |
for about 150 leads officers. -- police officers. There's a pattern | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
here. Collusion and by South Yorkshire Police happened in the | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
Hillsborough inquest. Some of the same officers involved in that | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
disgrace were also involved in the failed Orgreave prosecutions. We've | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
had a number of big issues in South Yorkshire. Child sexual | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
exploitation, scandals in Rotherham, the Hillsborough inquest is now, and | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
the verdicts have come in. The last of these three big issues is | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
Orgreave. And in each case, it is essential, if we are going to | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
rebuild trust and confidence in South Yorkshire Police, we need to | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
know the truth about each of those. And that I think, is why we need to | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
be Orgreave inquiry to happen quickly. What should happen is get | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
to the bottom of Orgreave and draw a line and it and let the police start | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
afresh. Because it is not fair for the bobby on the beat to be taking | :06:50. | :06:57. | |
all this flak from 30 years ago. 30 years ago, the people arrested here | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
ended up in the dock. Today, it is not the accused but their accusers | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
who are facing the questions. Ayr John Sweeney. | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
Joining me now is Vera Baird QC, who defended three of the accused | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
Orgreave miners and is now Police and Crime Commissioner | :07:17. | :07:18. | |
And Alex Marshall, former Chief Constable of Hampshire | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
and now Chief Executive of the College of Policing. | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
Good evening to you both. First of all, Vera Baird, why should there be | :07:24. | :07:31. | |
a public inquiry, it is very different from Hillsborough in the | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
sense that there were no deaths at Orgreave, there were deaths at | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
Hillsborough. Obviously there is no comparison in that sense but in fact | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
the Hillsborough deceptions, the changing of the 160 statements that | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
the panel found a pair, were defending the police to try to cover | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
their mistake. At Orgreave of course they were proactive, to discredit | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
the miners. That is the only possible conclusion. The officers | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
who were drilled by South Yorkshire Police to dictate the scene of riot | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
or altering what one individual might have done, throw a stone, a | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
petty offence, and turn it into the scene within which he was a | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
participant in a riot because others were behaving in a disorderly way. | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
That was dictated by a unit set up by the Chief Constable according to | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
South Yorkshire Police's own reference to the IPC C. So it was a | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
deliberate positive move whereas Hillsborough was merely defensive. | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
There was much less violence at Orgreave van has been pretended, | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
until, by pre-arrangement, the line split, the cavalry went out, the | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
short shield squad followed behind and then there was a good deal of | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
violence from the police and some reality show, there is no doubt of | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
it. Wax to Mac the collaboration about dictating scene of riot that | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
simply was not present at the time is where the resemblance is to | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
Hillsborough. Alex Marshall, on that question of pre-arrangement, | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
decisions made before the operation, you can look at that, whether it is | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
Orgreave or anywhere else and see that is not good policing. It is not | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
good policing if it has the outcome that plays out as you saw. And | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
alongside the miners and the people supporting them whose injuries are | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
clear on the footage there are also front-line police officers getting | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
injured in the same scenario. I am very pleased that the way events of | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
this type are planned by police now are substantially different, and | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
quite rightly they are about public safety and planning carefully in | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
advance, their contingency is not, as often characterised in Orgreave, | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
being on one side and not another, that is not the role of the blaze, | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
our role is to uphold the law. Yet that as we heard from former miners | :10:01. | :10:08. | |
at Orgreave, is how it is seen, that minor in the report said that they | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
needed to draw a line under it because it affects the bobby on the | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
beat, this sense is so destructive that until you have a public | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
inquiry, this will never end. I understand that, and the officers | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
working on the front line in South Yorkshire, as we speak officers will | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
be going out on night shift to protect their local communities, | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
those officers work with the support of the people they protect. And this | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
question of trust and confidence that still hangs around can of | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
course be very damaging. If the Home Secretary decides to hold such an | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
inquiry we would be very interested in the outcome of that inquiry in | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
terms of the education we provide in policing and the standards that we | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
set. The thing is, Vera Baird, do you see now that there is a new | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
climate among policing, a new openness? Things have changed very | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
much the South Yorkshire, Orgreave, or don't people see it like that? I | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
think Alex is right. There is a great change. Three things have | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
helped, the advent of police and crime commissioners not police, they | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
are in the middle of what the police do and they can scrutinise it | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
scrutinise it and it would be difficult for a conspiracy to arise. | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
Also the officers are different, I think. Most now have experience as | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
neighbourhood bullies. A Labour Party invention, terribly popular, | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
people work with local communities as officers, are based there and | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
become as loyal to the public in their community as they are to the | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
police. There is no longer that ethic of police self interest that | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
governs them and things are not of hierarchical and quasi military as | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
in the days of Orgreave. I agree with that, yet remember as Alex | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
said, policing depends on public consent and confidence. For many | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
years after Orgreave had occurred, when their word jury trials in | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
County Durham, where my clients came from, but when there were trials, | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
the jury would do its duty yet when ever there was the word of one | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
officer against one defendant they would never conflict. They lost | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
faith in the police because they either had in their family, or they | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
knew someone who had been at Orgreave or been treated similarly | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
somewhere else. Let me put that question of trust to Alex Marshall. | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
The figures are not great. In 2014, when more than 3000 allegations of | :12:36. | :12:37. | |
police corruption were when more than 3000 allegations of | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
action was taken in more than half the cases, indeed there is also | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
evidence to show that officers believe that if they talk about | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
corruption believe that if they talk about | :12:49. | :12:49. | |
identities will not be protected. So believe that if they talk about | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
there's a long way to go still on trust, is there not? There is but I | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
would say three things help trust, is there not? There is but I | :12:58. | :12:58. | |
in that sphere, we have a trust, is there not? There is but I | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
ethics and policing to support those trust, is there not? There is but I | :13:02. | :13:03. | |
professionals to make trust, is there not? There is but I | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
and busy wrongdoing. Most of the role of the professional | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
placing is to support the good hard working people in policing. We also | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
keep a register of those dismissed from policing. The vast majority of | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
keep a register of those dismissed that is what the code of | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
keep a register of those dismissed officers don't | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
keep a register of those dismissed whistle-blowing guidelines to allow | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
people that production, should they report wrongdoing within policing. | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
The EU referendum campaign has been tetchy from the start, | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
increasingly bad tempered and now the in-fighting - at least | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
in the Tory party - seems to be reaching a crescendo. | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
Shadow Chancellor John McDonald got into the debate today, arguing that | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
the campaign has been negative and accusing the Tories of peddling the | :13:59. | :14:00. | |
politics of despair. Today Lord Heseltine | :14:01. | :14:01. | |
weighed into Boris Johnson, describing his comparison | :14:02. | :14:03. | |
of the ideals of the EU, to Hitler's plan for a European | :14:04. | :14:05. | |
superstate as "preposterous I think the strain of the campaign | :14:06. | :14:07. | |
is beginning to tell on him. And before that, we had the | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
near-racist allegations This is the most serious | :14:13. | :14:23. | |
decision Britain has faced in a generation | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
and it is descending into Our political editor | :14:28. | :14:29. | |
Nick Watt is with me. What do you make of the Heseltine | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
intervention? The Tory infighting has really reached a new low with | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
that personal attack on Boris Johnson by Michael Heseltine. Why | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
did Downing Street think it would be a good idea to put Michael Heseltine | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
up? Two broad reasons. One Boris Johnson is an easy target, a member | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
of the political cabinet but not the full cabinet. The second, they | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
believed that the spats he is getting into our process, | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
personality, and if you talk about process and personality in a | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
referendum, like Alex Salmond did, you lose. You need to talk about | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
substance. It is important to say that the league campaign believe | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
that the prime ministers reached a new level of absurdity today when he | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
said that the leader of Isis would be very happy if Britain left of the | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
European Union. So who is the one they are really worried about? They | :15:22. | :15:23. | |
are most concerned about Michael Gove. They believe that he has not | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
been particularly straightforward with them. They believe that he has | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
been particularly aggressive in his attacks on some areas of government | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
policy and that is ironic because tomorrow we will see a Queen's | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
Speech in which the Prime Minister sets out his vision for the post | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
referendum period, to be the great Tory social reformer. And which | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
minister will be at the heart of that with a reform programme? | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
Michael Gove. One area we will have to wait for is the human bill of | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
rights, which is not quite ready. It will be signposted tomorrow but we | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
will not see it. On the face of it this gives Labour, in the form of | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
the Shadow chancellor, and more. It does indeed and we had a full | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
throated endorsement of a senior Labour figure, which is unheard of, | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
even in the days were Gordon Brown used to duff up the European Union. | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
Why is John McDonnell so pro European? Two reasons, once it could | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
be Labour voters who decide the referendum. If it is Tory | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
infighting, they might be switched off. Secondly, in the aftermath, | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
they do not want Labour in the north-west of England to suffer the | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
fate of the Labour party in Scotland. | :16:36. | :16:37. | |
Joining me now is the shadow chancellor John McDonnell. | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
You spoke about never sharing a platform with the Tories on this | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
campaign. Even if it would mean squeezing that last drop of Remain a | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
voter, you would not share a platform? We have seen what has | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
happened within the Tory Party. It is like a pub brawl. I think they | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
are demeaning the debate. I think they have lost control of this | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
debate. The people on the doorstep are saying time and time again, we | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
just want the facts, we want your vision for Europe. And they want a | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
considered debate. That is why I do not want to have anything to do with | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
this debate. We will talk about divisions in a moment but I would | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
like to say one more time, and imagine it is incredibly close and | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
you have to make a last push. Are you so concerned about keeping away | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
from the Tories, for history, not least Scotland, so concerned about | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
keeping away from them that they would not share a platform and say, | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
we will put our differences aside because we believe so strongly in | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
the European Union? You would not even do that? It would not work, it | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
would turn people off. Any association with what is going on | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
with the Tory Party is turning people off. The people we need to | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
get out the vote are voters and young people. But don't you think, | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
the very thing you are saying is that people want to see vision. And | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
even if you have different within Europe, what you are actually saying | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
is that even if people want me to stand on that club run -- platform, | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
I will not do it because of my own politics. Not at all. You are not | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
listening. It would be counter-productive. I want to win | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
the debate and I want us to remain within Europe. Any association with | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
the Tory brawl would undermine that ability to win the debate. Moving on | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
to talk about labour in the north-east. A lot of the problems | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
you have in the north-east, a lot of Labour supporters have become very | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
Eurosceptic over the issue of jobs. And yet today, for perhaps the very | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
first time, we have heard a member of the Labour leadership giving a | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
full throated endorsement to the free movement of people. Shall I | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
tell you why? Because the free movement of people is a condition of | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
being part of the EU and part of that single market that we so | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
desperately need. In the north-east, it is interesting you mentioned the | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
north-east because that is where many car manufacturers in particular | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
have been developed. The reason it has been developed there is because | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
of the debasing of the UK market overall. Protecting jobs is key. If | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
you understand Labour members' fears of immigration is... Of course I do. | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
We did a programme from Boston and we were told by people they are, | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
Labour supporters, that this is a disaster for them and their children | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
and we will not get jobs. Of course I understand their concerns but we | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
have to have a rational debate and that is why I am worried about | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
Project fear from both sides of the Conservative party. It is not | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
allowing rational debate on things like immigration because the issue | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
around immigration is one we have to address. But the issues around jobs | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
and housing and public services is because of a government failure, a | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
Tory government failure. But with respect, you cannot issue the | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
immigration issue within the EU because you have signed up for free | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
movement. It is not about immigration. It is about arguing the | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
case that signing up to the free movement of people allows people to | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
go to Europe and have jobs. It does mean people coming here at a time | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
when we need them in our economy to grow the economy, which will then | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
enable us to have jobs for everybody. You called the European | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
Union a superstate based on capitalism. You have consistently | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
voted against further integration and you were one of the biggest | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
banes of Tony Blair's life as an EU rebel. Can you put your hand on your | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
heart and say that you truly back the EU? Let me be clear of what I | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
have been saying consistently. I believe we should be within Europe | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
but I do not believe the European institutions, as it stands, | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
functions effectively. It needs to be more open and democratic so I am | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
campaigning to remain within Europe, within the EU, but to reform the EU. | :20:50. | :20:51. | |
I want to put a quote to you. It is easier for people to imagine | :20:52. | :21:08. | |
the end of the earth than the end of capitalism. That is what we are | :21:09. | :21:10. | |
about. That sounds like the John McDonnell that we know. That is a | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
quote from a guy called Jamieson. Which I quoted in an article in the | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
New Yorker. I want to transform our system. I do not believe that | :21:17. | :21:17. | |
capitalism serves the system. I do not believe that | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
of capitalism? I want to transform the system, which means adapting | :21:22. | :21:29. | |
capitalism. We need to change the European system | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
capitalism. We need to change the and democratic | :21:33. | :21:34. | |
capitalism. We need to change the stranglehold. So you want to | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
capitalism. We need to change the in the same club | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
capitalism. We need to change the Goldman Sachs? And I want to | :21:43. | :21:42. | |
challenge their Goldman Sachs? And I want to | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
European Union at the moment, an economic policy, it means you are | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
shouting down the letterbox. You will not be in their negotiating, | :21:52. | :21:52. | |
you will not be working will not be in their negotiating, | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
other social Democratic parties and progressive movements to transform | :21:58. | :22:06. | |
Europe. To work for the end of capitalism? To transform capitalism, | :22:07. | :22:08. | |
working for our economic system. Let's talk about anti-Semitism. | :22:09. | :22:09. | |
First, Baroness Janet Royle was looking into anti-Semitism at Oxford | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
and she said that Labour members who are guilty of anti-Semitism should | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
not be out of the party for life. What is your view? I took a strong | :22:20. | :22:21. | |
view on this. I What is your view? I took a strong | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
serious enough, I do not want these people to be members of our party. | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
So we have a difference of view. I think any form of racism now, | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
wherever it is, particularly within our party, we have to be extremely | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
wherever it is, particularly within in the future. She has written this | :22:39. | :22:39. | |
that will report so presumably | :22:40. | :22:50. | |
that will to our national executive committee | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
and it will influence policy in the future. Let's | :22:55. | :22:56. | |
and it will influence policy in the Livingstone. Can he ever be a member | :22:57. | :22:57. | |
of the party again? I do not want to process that he will need to go | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
through. But you are saying process that he will need to go | :23:02. | :23:03. | |
cannot be a member of the party. process that he will need to go | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
Everybody has to have a fair process. I cannot influence that | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
process in advance, whether it is Ken Livingstone or any other member. | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
I cannot do that. I have made my view absolutely clear on what I feel | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
about anti-Semitism and if someone is being anti-Semitic within our | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
party, I have made my view clear. It is for due process within our party | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
and the real authorities to judge. As you say yourself, these | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
committees will be As you say yourself, these | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
entirely. So if they are entirely independent, then you can say what | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
you want right now and it will have no impact on the committee. Whatever | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
I say now we'll have some influence and I do not want to prejudge | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
Fifty years ago, when Mao Zedong unleashed millions of China's | :23:51. | :23:52. | |
youth to attack parents, teachers institutions, | :23:53. | :23:54. | |
temples, the Party itself, they set out to destroy the very | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
The Red Guard persecuted 36 million people and killed more | :23:58. | :24:06. | |
than a million as Mao pursued his cult of personality. | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
In a moment I'll be speaking to the author of one | :24:10. | :24:11. | |
of the best-selling books of all time, Wild Swans, | :24:12. | :24:13. | |
whose family lived through the Cultural Revolution, but first - | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
The great proletarian Cultural Revolution. | :24:17. | :24:34. | |
Its stated aim, to wipe out the four olds. | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
Old customs, old culture, old habits, and old ideas. | :24:37. | :24:47. | |
To that end, Mao unleashed his Red Guards, bands of zealous students | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
sent out to beat their elders into submission. | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
But the real aim was not culture but politics. | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
The Cultural Revolution was a purge of Mao's enemies at the top | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
It resulted in years of violence and terror. | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
Today, China is a very different place. | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
Maoism has been replaced by capitalism, known | :25:09. | :25:10. | |
euphemistically as socialism with Chinese characteristics. | :25:11. | :25:23. | |
And yet, the Communist Party that provided over the cultural | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
Just as in Mao's day, there are still power struggles | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
Purges now happen in the courtroom, not as lynches | :25:33. | :25:46. | |
But they are purges nonetheless. | :25:47. | :25:55. | |
Some old habits have survived. | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
Just as in Mao's day, official policy is enunciated | :25:59. | :26:00. | |
Yesterday, on the 50th anniversary of the start of the | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
Cultural Revolution, it was silent on the matter. | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
But today an editorial in the People's Daily calls | :26:07. | :26:08. | |
the Cultural Revolution huge disaster, one which | :26:09. | :26:10. | |
The lessons of history, it says, have given China asserting | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
"Nobody", it concludes, "fears turmoil and desires | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
Jung Chang is the author of Wild Swans and also | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
First of all, in Wild Swans you write about three generations living | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
through the cultural Revolution. Can you explain how bad it was? Well, I | :26:28. | :26:35. | |
was 14 when the cultural Revolution started in 1966. Schools were | :26:36. | :26:43. | |
closed. There was no schooling, and children were encouraged to attack | :26:44. | :26:45. | |
their teachers. I saw my teacher being tortured, subjected to | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
gigantic denunciation meetings, being beaten up. I saw fellow pupils | :26:53. | :27:02. | |
trying to commit suicide. It was a nightmare. But for your own family, | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
what happened? Well, my parents were victims of the Cultural Revolution. | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
My father was one of the few who spoke out against the violence. As a | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
result, he was arrested, tortured, driven insane. And he was exiled to | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
a camp and died maturely and tragically. My mother was under | :27:27. | :27:34. | |
pressure to denounce my father but she refused. So she was subject to | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
over 100 of these ghastly enunciation meetings. Basically, the | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
victims were stood on the platform, facing a hysterical crowd. My | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
mother's arms, like other victims, were twisted to the back, and she | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
was kicked and beaten. Did you witness this? Yes, we all saw this. | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
People of my generation have all seen this. And have been brutalised. | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
And you still feel that, you still feel that part of you has been | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
scarred by it? I feel that yes, I feel strongly. In a way, I am very | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
lucky as I was able to read a book about it. I wrote Wild Swans and I | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
turned the trauma into memory, so I can talk to you about it. But I | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
wonder, the people of your age now, the people that are 14, 15 now, | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
unless they have read Wild Swans, where will they get any information | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
about it? What do young Chinese people know about the Cultural | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
Revolution? Basically, not much. Because my books are banned in | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
China. Like other books of a kind. There are people who are saying | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
these mindless things in favour of the Cultural Revolution. Things that | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
do not get banned. A lot of people do not really know what happened. | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
The really curious ones can search the internet, trying to climb over | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
the firewall, but many others just don't know. And I wonder what you | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
think about the future in China, whether you would think China would | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
ever move to a 1-party state, or do you think that this idea of economic | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
advancement and a 1-party state will continue because people are just too | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
frightened of change? I am afraid it is going to continue for a long | :29:35. | :29:41. | |
time, and basically I think that most people, if you ask them, they | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
would say that democracy is a good idea. But most people would also | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
fear what might happen in transition, whether they might be | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
getting something worse than they got today. But that is almost not | :29:57. | :30:04. | |
the issue. I think the issue is that there should be an open discussion | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
about the Cultural Revolution, because the Communist Party itself | :30:11. | :30:18. | |
has categorically rejected it. Finally. After chairman now died. -- | :30:19. | :30:29. | |
Chairman Mao died. I think that is the real issue. From my point of | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
view, I would like to see my books published in China. Thank you very | :30:34. | :30:34. | |
much. The psychedelic sixties | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
as celebrated by writers such as Tom Wolfe in | :30:38. | :30:39. | |
The Electric Cool Aid Acid Test, featuring Ken Kesey, | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
and the poetry of Allen Ginsberg are all a half a century ago | :30:43. | :30:44. | |
now, but psychedelia Researchers at Imperial College | :30:45. | :30:46. | |
have, for the first time today, published the results of a trial | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
into psilocybin and its effects The substance is the 'magic' | :30:54. | :30:55. | |
element in magic mushrooms Doctors believe it could have | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
medicinal qualities. The only slight problem is, | :31:02. | :31:09. | |
it's a banned substance. In an ordinary hospital | :31:10. | :31:11. | |
room, something very out Step by step, it's being transformed | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
into a psychedelic lounge. Over the last 12 months, | :31:18. | :31:29. | |
patients with severe drug resistant depression have been brought | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
into this room and given a strong and illegal hallucinogenic, | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
psilocybin, the active ingredient In charge of this radical new drug | :31:40. | :31:41. | |
trial is scientist Robin So the room has been transformed | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
from a bog-standard hospital room We're trying to provide | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
a setting that is supportive, warm, nurturing, where the patient | :31:53. | :32:03. | |
can feel safe and supported, and free and able to | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
open up, really. This is one of a number of recent | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
trials reviving some of the most controversial psychiatric research | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
of the 1950s and 1960s. After receiving a small dose of LSD, | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
they're confused and undisciplined. Around 40,000 patients | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
worldwide were treated with psychedelics for everything | :32:25. | :32:26. | |
from alcoholism to schizophrenia. That all stopped when governments | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
around the world began Half a century later, | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
and doctors are tentatively picking up this research, | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
with around a dozen trials now worldwide beginning to explore | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
medical uses of psychedelics. Andrew Thayer was one of 20 | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
patients on the trial. He's struggled with depression | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
for two decades. It's hard to describe | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
the hopelessness that you feel I got to a place last November | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
where I had pretty much given up, I thought, I just can't | :33:02. | :33:19. | |
do this any more. He found out about the trial | :33:20. | :33:21. | |
online and applied. That is how, three months ago, | :33:22. | :33:23. | |
he found himself in a hospital room in West London, being given | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
a Class A psychedelic drug. Roz Watts is a clinical psychologist | :33:29. | :33:37. | |
who helps guide patients I was surprised at the level of his | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
suffering because when we met him he was so charming and sensitive | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
to other people's needs and so great at conversation | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
that it was difficult to see the suffering at first, but we did | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
see it in the dosing days. We realised how much he had | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
been struggling against. It started off fairly pleasantly, | :33:58. | :34:14. | |
but it soon got pretty dark. I described it as a | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
black tide coming in. Often with psychedelics, | :34:22. | :34:30. | |
emotions and difficult experiences that have been repressed | :34:31. | :34:32. | |
because they are so uncomfortable And that can be very healthy | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
and very positive in terms of change because avoidance of difficult | :34:36. | :34:47. | |
emotion is really at the heart Roz said, just concentrate on this | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
rose, and she picked up the rose This rose had taken on a life | :34:51. | :35:10. | |
of its own, and was definitely trying to communicate that | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
everything is fine, beautiful. It's worth saying that patients had | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
a variety of different experiences It was unclear at the time | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
what long-term effect Today, scientists published | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
their results in the Lancet. So these are the results | :35:32. | :35:38. | |
from the study so far, This is a measure of the severity | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
of patients' depression. You can see one week | :35:42. | :35:55. | |
post-treatment, you can see that virtually every | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
patient shows some decrease But the results do look much more | :36:00. | :36:01. | |
mixed when you go past one week. When you go past three months, | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
there are patients that are kind That's right, and so we are seeing | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
signs of relapse in That's quite common in depression, | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
particularly treatment It tells us really that this | :36:14. | :36:21. | |
isn't a magic cure. Even so, if we were to take average | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
scores, even up to three months and six months post-treatment, | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
the really is quite a highly significant decrease | :36:30. | :36:31. | |
in depressive tendencies. The researchers believe that | :36:32. | :36:32. | |
psilocybin increases the It's speculated that in depression | :36:33. | :36:34. | |
the brain gets stuck into repetitive negative | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
patterns of thinking. So if we can introduce | :36:43. | :36:44. | |
a kind of flexibility into the mind and into the brain, | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
then perhaps that can help us shift an individual out of that rut | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
that they have become stuck in. The problem is at this stage | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
and this is only a theory. On the study itself is not | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
without its difficulties. There is an ethical issue here, | :37:00. | :37:01. | |
isn't there, of taking people who are very severely depressed, | :37:02. | :37:03. | |
taking them off antidepressants, giving them a Class A drug and then | :37:04. | :37:11. | |
not giving them the therapy If they decide to come | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
off their medication, We closely monitor them, | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
and we stay in contact with their mental health | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
practitioner or GP. I think people should consider | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
that if ever they think, I want to go out and find some magic | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
mushrooms, and I have to come In the context of this | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
trial, the way we did Three months after Andy's trial, | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
and he is still coming to terms I think what I am experiencing | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
are after-shocks. Because even now, I will have good | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
days and bad days but some of the good days are outnumbering | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
the bad days and I am And I wouldn't have | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
thought that was possible. On the whole, I think it has | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
moved me into a different direction. It has kicked me out | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
of the rut, as it were. Andy believes that psilocybin has | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
benefited him but the trial, by clinical standards, | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
is tiny and researchers admit that much more evidence is needed before | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
they can be sure of the effects Another larger trial | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
is planned, but this kind It's unlikely then, that your local | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
GP will be able to prescribe There was a lot of apron wringing | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
about the BBC's announcement today that 11,000 recipes would be excised | :38:30. | :38:43. | |
from the website and new ones Such was the brouhaha | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
that the BBC changed the plan. Now they're saying that most | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
of the recipes will now appear To celebrate, we've come up | :38:52. | :38:53. | |
with our own contribution... I am now cooking very quickly some | :38:54. | :39:14. | |
linguine with spicy tomato sauce and mussels. I would just like to tell | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
you that I have been cooking these tomatoes with red and Ian, chilli | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
and garlic for the duration of the programme. They are almost ready. To | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
finish them off I will add some tinned tomatoes to give moisture and | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
on the right-hand side I cooking up fresh linguini. I'm going to make | :39:33. | :39:40. | |
sure these are well mixed in. Then with the mussels I have cooked them | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
in white wine and spring onion and I have shelled all of them except for | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
some which I will use for garnish. Now I am going to pop this straight | :39:50. | :39:58. | |
into here. The important thing is to whiz it up. I appear not to have | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
anyone from Masterchef to help me. I will put it here and I will with | :40:06. | :40:15. | |
this up. Just to make sure it does not splutter any of the crew. I will | :40:16. | :40:25. | |
just keep this going, to get all that, I quite like a bit of texture | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
in it. That great word, texture! That is just about done. So now what | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
I am going to do is strain my linguini. Brilliant. I'm going to | :40:37. | :40:46. | |
put my linguini in here. And once that is fully... I'm just going to | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
mix this straight into my tomato sauce. I'm going to mix it up and | :40:50. | :40:57. | |
I'm going to add my mussels, like so. This is quite quick, easy dish | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
to do. And then, first so. This is quite quick, easy dish | :41:02. | :41:08. | |
little into the plate and so. This is quite quick, easy dish | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
Jung Chang if she would like to have some. This looks messy and would not | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
pass the test. I'm going to put a little on here and garnish it with a | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
couple of mussels and I am going to give Jung Chang a little linguini | :41:24. | :41:31. | |
with mussels. Spicy! Not beautifully served. Wonderful, wonderful, this | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
is my dinner! If you like the recipe right in with a stamped addressed | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
envelope for my tomato spiced linguini with mussels and a little | :41:43. | :41:44. | |
parsley for garnish. OK? Good evening, Wednesday will be very | :41:45. | :42:06. | |
changeable, threatening clouds never far away, the chance of catching | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
changeable, threatening clouds never across England, | :42:13. | :42:15. |