17/05/2016 Newsnight


17/05/2016

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Tonight will the government give in to mounting pressure to hold

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a public inquiry into Orgreave, after the damning verdict

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on South Yorkshire police in the Hillsborough Inquiry?

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I don't know if I had out what but when the wagons came

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and I went to the front to shout I got a push in the and arrested. Put

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on a bus, smacked about a bit but not as bad as some people.

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I think the strain of the campaign is telling on him, his judgment is

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going! The shadow chancellor

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is here to share his great sadness Fifty years on from the Cultural

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revolution - is China horrified I'll be

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speaking to the author of Wild Swans, Jung Chang who lived

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through it AND also wrote And the BBC announced that recipes

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online were not for ever, then there was a bit of a flambe and now

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the recipes will be on the BBC's commercial food website,

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so to celebrate, welcome Tonight, linguini and mussels

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with slow cooked tomato Today the Home Secretary Theresa May

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told the Police Federation conference that the 1989

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Hillsborough disaster must be the "touchstone" for everything

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the police does. The Hillsborough report,

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which found that 96 fans who died had been "unlawfully

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killed", has given succour to the families of miners involved

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in the so called Battle of Orgreave with the same

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South Yorkshire police force They are demanding a public

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inquiry into those events, which led to 120 police and pickets

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injured and 93 arrests - calls that are being taken

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increasingly seriously John Sweeney spent the day

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at Rotherham in the shadow One police force, twice under

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suspicion. After the shame of Hillsborough, now South Yorkshire

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Police faces calls for an inquiry into what became known as the Battle

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of Orgreave. Fort here, 32 years ago. The narrative, as told by the

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South Yorkshire Police investigation, was the striking

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miners were pretty much on that bridge where those fancy new homes

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are being built. The police were down here and the miners were

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throwing rocks at the police lines. The police had no choice but to

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react. The police charged and so began the battle of Orgreave. Now

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there is a stack of evidence that that narrative simply is not true.

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June 18, 1984. Roughly 5000 striking miners tried to stop lorries

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carrying Koke going to steel mills. But they were outnumbered by 6000

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police officers. That day was about the most frightening day of my life

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because of the atmosphere. How would you describe the atmosphere that

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day? It was a different atmosphere on that day than any other picketing

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day. This was the biggest clash of the most political strike in modern

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times. The miners, led by their union president, Arthur Scargill,

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confronted the forces of the state, in ultimate command, Margaret

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Thatcher. She described the miners as the enemy within. One of those

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arrested, Kevin Horne, a miner from Mexborough, South Yorkshire. There

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was like a simple line of police, maybe a double line, along this

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playing field. I don't know if I had been picked out or what but when the

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wagons came and I went to the front to shout, I got a push in the back

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and arrested. Put on a bus, slapped about a little bit, like, but not as

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bad as some people, obviously. What we you accused of? I was accused of

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obstruction. And as the day went on, by the time we got to the

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Magistrates' by the time we got to the

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assembly. Landmark when by the time we got to the

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Orgreave pickets went to trial for riot the cases against

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Orgreave pickets went to trial for collapsed. And why was that?

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Collusion and fabrication of the words that come to mind. Colluding

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in a sense that officers got together, a group of officers

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decided that this was how the evidence would be drawn up. What

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they did when they drew this evidence Abbas to pre-face it,

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saying, we are out to win this. -- was to pre-face it. What were some

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of the phrases? I was part of a police support unit which was at

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Orgreave. We were told to report for duty. It was a bright summer's day

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and the scene was set with lines of police and lines of pickets,

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initially the mood was good but then it turned nasty and we were

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subjected to a hail of missiles and so forth and so on. It was identical

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for about 150 leads officers. -- police officers. There's a pattern

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here. Collusion and by South Yorkshire Police happened in the

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Hillsborough inquest. Some of the same officers involved in that

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disgrace were also involved in the failed Orgreave prosecutions. We've

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had a number of big issues in South Yorkshire. Child sexual

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exploitation, scandals in Rotherham, the Hillsborough inquest is now, and

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the verdicts have come in. The last of these three big issues is

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Orgreave. And in each case, it is essential, if we are going to

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rebuild trust and confidence in South Yorkshire Police, we need to

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know the truth about each of those. And that I think, is why we need to

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be Orgreave inquiry to happen quickly. What should happen is get

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to the bottom of Orgreave and draw a line and it and let the police start

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afresh. Because it is not fair for the bobby on the beat to be taking

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all this flak from 30 years ago. 30 years ago, the people arrested here

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ended up in the dock. Today, it is not the accused but their accusers

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who are facing the questions. Ayr John Sweeney.

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Joining me now is Vera Baird QC, who defended three of the accused

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Orgreave miners and is now Police and Crime Commissioner

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And Alex Marshall, former Chief Constable of Hampshire

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and now Chief Executive of the College of Policing.

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Good evening to you both. First of all, Vera Baird, why should there be

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a public inquiry, it is very different from Hillsborough in the

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sense that there were no deaths at Orgreave, there were deaths at

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Hillsborough. Obviously there is no comparison in that sense but in fact

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the Hillsborough deceptions, the changing of the 160 statements that

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the panel found a pair, were defending the police to try to cover

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their mistake. At Orgreave of course they were proactive, to discredit

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the miners. That is the only possible conclusion. The officers

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who were drilled by South Yorkshire Police to dictate the scene of riot

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or altering what one individual might have done, throw a stone, a

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petty offence, and turn it into the scene within which he was a

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participant in a riot because others were behaving in a disorderly way.

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That was dictated by a unit set up by the Chief Constable according to

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South Yorkshire Police's own reference to the IPC C. So it was a

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deliberate positive move whereas Hillsborough was merely defensive.

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There was much less violence at Orgreave van has been pretended,

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until, by pre-arrangement, the line split, the cavalry went out, the

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short shield squad followed behind and then there was a good deal of

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violence from the police and some reality show, there is no doubt of

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it. Wax to Mac the collaboration about dictating scene of riot that

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simply was not present at the time is where the resemblance is to

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Hillsborough. Alex Marshall, on that question of pre-arrangement,

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decisions made before the operation, you can look at that, whether it is

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Orgreave or anywhere else and see that is not good policing. It is not

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good policing if it has the outcome that plays out as you saw. And

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alongside the miners and the people supporting them whose injuries are

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clear on the footage there are also front-line police officers getting

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injured in the same scenario. I am very pleased that the way events of

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this type are planned by police now are substantially different, and

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quite rightly they are about public safety and planning carefully in

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advance, their contingency is not, as often characterised in Orgreave,

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being on one side and not another, that is not the role of the blaze,

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our role is to uphold the law. Yet that as we heard from former miners

:10:01.:10:08.

at Orgreave, is how it is seen, that minor in the report said that they

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needed to draw a line under it because it affects the bobby on the

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beat, this sense is so destructive that until you have a public

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inquiry, this will never end. I understand that, and the officers

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working on the front line in South Yorkshire, as we speak officers will

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be going out on night shift to protect their local communities,

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those officers work with the support of the people they protect. And this

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question of trust and confidence that still hangs around can of

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course be very damaging. If the Home Secretary decides to hold such an

:10:45.:10:48.

inquiry we would be very interested in the outcome of that inquiry in

:10:49.:10:52.

terms of the education we provide in policing and the standards that we

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set. The thing is, Vera Baird, do you see now that there is a new

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climate among policing, a new openness? Things have changed very

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much the South Yorkshire, Orgreave, or don't people see it like that? I

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think Alex is right. There is a great change. Three things have

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helped, the advent of police and crime commissioners not police, they

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are in the middle of what the police do and they can scrutinise it

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scrutinise it and it would be difficult for a conspiracy to arise.

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Also the officers are different, I think. Most now have experience as

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neighbourhood bullies. A Labour Party invention, terribly popular,

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people work with local communities as officers, are based there and

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become as loyal to the public in their community as they are to the

:11:42.:11:45.

police. There is no longer that ethic of police self interest that

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governs them and things are not of hierarchical and quasi military as

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in the days of Orgreave. I agree with that, yet remember as Alex

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said, policing depends on public consent and confidence. For many

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years after Orgreave had occurred, when their word jury trials in

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County Durham, where my clients came from, but when there were trials,

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the jury would do its duty yet when ever there was the word of one

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officer against one defendant they would never conflict. They lost

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faith in the police because they either had in their family, or they

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knew someone who had been at Orgreave or been treated similarly

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somewhere else. Let me put that question of trust to Alex Marshall.

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The figures are not great. In 2014, when more than 3000 allegations of

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police corruption were when more than 3000 allegations of

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action was taken in more than half the cases, indeed there is also

:12:42.:12:45.

evidence to show that officers believe that if they talk about

:12:46.:12:48.

corruption believe that if they talk about

:12:49.:12:49.

identities will not be protected. So believe that if they talk about

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there's a long way to go still on trust, is there not? There is but I

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would say three things help trust, is there not? There is but I

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in that sphere, we have a trust, is there not? There is but I

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ethics and policing to support those trust, is there not? There is but I

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professionals to make trust, is there not? There is but I

:13:04.:13:07.

and busy wrongdoing. Most of the role of the professional

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placing is to support the good hard working people in policing. We also

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keep a register of those dismissed from policing. The vast majority of

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keep a register of those dismissed that is what the code of

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keep a register of those dismissed officers don't

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keep a register of those dismissed whistle-blowing guidelines to allow

:13:33.:13:34.

people that production, should they report wrongdoing within policing.

:13:35.:13:41.

The EU referendum campaign has been tetchy from the start,

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increasingly bad tempered and now the in-fighting - at least

:13:46.:13:48.

in the Tory party - seems to be reaching a crescendo.

:13:49.:13:53.

Shadow Chancellor John McDonald got into the debate today, arguing that

:13:54.:13:58.

the campaign has been negative and accusing the Tories of peddling the

:13:59.:14:00.

politics of despair. Today Lord Heseltine

:14:01.:14:01.

weighed into Boris Johnson, describing his comparison

:14:02.:14:03.

of the ideals of the EU, to Hitler's plan for a European

:14:04.:14:05.

superstate as "preposterous I think the strain of the campaign

:14:06.:14:07.

is beginning to tell on him. And before that, we had the

:14:08.:14:12.

near-racist allegations This is the most serious

:14:13.:14:23.

decision Britain has faced in a generation

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and it is descending into Our political editor

:14:28.:14:29.

Nick Watt is with me. What do you make of the Heseltine

:14:30.:14:38.

intervention? The Tory infighting has really reached a new low with

:14:39.:14:41.

that personal attack on Boris Johnson by Michael Heseltine. Why

:14:42.:14:45.

did Downing Street think it would be a good idea to put Michael Heseltine

:14:46.:14:50.

up? Two broad reasons. One Boris Johnson is an easy target, a member

:14:51.:14:54.

of the political cabinet but not the full cabinet. The second, they

:14:55.:14:59.

believed that the spats he is getting into our process,

:15:00.:15:02.

personality, and if you talk about process and personality in a

:15:03.:15:05.

referendum, like Alex Salmond did, you lose. You need to talk about

:15:06.:15:09.

substance. It is important to say that the league campaign believe

:15:10.:15:12.

that the prime ministers reached a new level of absurdity today when he

:15:13.:15:16.

said that the leader of Isis would be very happy if Britain left of the

:15:17.:15:21.

European Union. So who is the one they are really worried about? They

:15:22.:15:23.

are most concerned about Michael Gove. They believe that he has not

:15:24.:15:27.

been particularly straightforward with them. They believe that he has

:15:28.:15:32.

been particularly aggressive in his attacks on some areas of government

:15:33.:15:36.

policy and that is ironic because tomorrow we will see a Queen's

:15:37.:15:39.

Speech in which the Prime Minister sets out his vision for the post

:15:40.:15:43.

referendum period, to be the great Tory social reformer. And which

:15:44.:15:46.

minister will be at the heart of that with a reform programme?

:15:47.:15:50.

Michael Gove. One area we will have to wait for is the human bill of

:15:51.:15:55.

rights, which is not quite ready. It will be signposted tomorrow but we

:15:56.:15:59.

will not see it. On the face of it this gives Labour, in the form of

:16:00.:16:02.

the Shadow chancellor, and more. It does indeed and we had a full

:16:03.:16:08.

throated endorsement of a senior Labour figure, which is unheard of,

:16:09.:16:14.

even in the days were Gordon Brown used to duff up the European Union.

:16:15.:16:19.

Why is John McDonnell so pro European? Two reasons, once it could

:16:20.:16:23.

be Labour voters who decide the referendum. If it is Tory

:16:24.:16:26.

infighting, they might be switched off. Secondly, in the aftermath,

:16:27.:16:30.

they do not want Labour in the north-west of England to suffer the

:16:31.:16:35.

fate of the Labour party in Scotland.

:16:36.:16:37.

Joining me now is the shadow chancellor John McDonnell.

:16:38.:16:40.

You spoke about never sharing a platform with the Tories on this

:16:41.:16:46.

campaign. Even if it would mean squeezing that last drop of Remain a

:16:47.:16:52.

voter, you would not share a platform? We have seen what has

:16:53.:16:57.

happened within the Tory Party. It is like a pub brawl. I think they

:16:58.:17:00.

are demeaning the debate. I think they have lost control of this

:17:01.:17:04.

debate. The people on the doorstep are saying time and time again, we

:17:05.:17:09.

just want the facts, we want your vision for Europe. And they want a

:17:10.:17:13.

considered debate. That is why I do not want to have anything to do with

:17:14.:17:17.

this debate. We will talk about divisions in a moment but I would

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like to say one more time, and imagine it is incredibly close and

:17:22.:17:25.

you have to make a last push. Are you so concerned about keeping away

:17:26.:17:30.

from the Tories, for history, not least Scotland, so concerned about

:17:31.:17:33.

keeping away from them that they would not share a platform and say,

:17:34.:17:37.

we will put our differences aside because we believe so strongly in

:17:38.:17:41.

the European Union? You would not even do that? It would not work, it

:17:42.:17:46.

would turn people off. Any association with what is going on

:17:47.:17:49.

with the Tory Party is turning people off. The people we need to

:17:50.:17:53.

get out the vote are voters and young people. But don't you think,

:17:54.:17:57.

the very thing you are saying is that people want to see vision. And

:17:58.:18:02.

even if you have different within Europe, what you are actually saying

:18:03.:18:07.

is that even if people want me to stand on that club run -- platform,

:18:08.:18:14.

I will not do it because of my own politics. Not at all. You are not

:18:15.:18:18.

listening. It would be counter-productive. I want to win

:18:19.:18:21.

the debate and I want us to remain within Europe. Any association with

:18:22.:18:25.

the Tory brawl would undermine that ability to win the debate. Moving on

:18:26.:18:30.

to talk about labour in the north-east. A lot of the problems

:18:31.:18:34.

you have in the north-east, a lot of Labour supporters have become very

:18:35.:18:37.

Eurosceptic over the issue of jobs. And yet today, for perhaps the very

:18:38.:18:42.

first time, we have heard a member of the Labour leadership giving a

:18:43.:18:47.

full throated endorsement to the free movement of people. Shall I

:18:48.:18:52.

tell you why? Because the free movement of people is a condition of

:18:53.:18:55.

being part of the EU and part of that single market that we so

:18:56.:19:00.

desperately need. In the north-east, it is interesting you mentioned the

:19:01.:19:04.

north-east because that is where many car manufacturers in particular

:19:05.:19:07.

have been developed. The reason it has been developed there is because

:19:08.:19:12.

of the debasing of the UK market overall. Protecting jobs is key. If

:19:13.:19:19.

you understand Labour members' fears of immigration is... Of course I do.

:19:20.:19:23.

We did a programme from Boston and we were told by people they are,

:19:24.:19:27.

Labour supporters, that this is a disaster for them and their children

:19:28.:19:31.

and we will not get jobs. Of course I understand their concerns but we

:19:32.:19:34.

have to have a rational debate and that is why I am worried about

:19:35.:19:37.

Project fear from both sides of the Conservative party. It is not

:19:38.:19:42.

allowing rational debate on things like immigration because the issue

:19:43.:19:45.

around immigration is one we have to address. But the issues around jobs

:19:46.:19:49.

and housing and public services is because of a government failure, a

:19:50.:19:53.

Tory government failure. But with respect, you cannot issue the

:19:54.:19:57.

immigration issue within the EU because you have signed up for free

:19:58.:20:00.

movement. It is not about immigration. It is about arguing the

:20:01.:20:05.

case that signing up to the free movement of people allows people to

:20:06.:20:10.

go to Europe and have jobs. It does mean people coming here at a time

:20:11.:20:14.

when we need them in our economy to grow the economy, which will then

:20:15.:20:17.

enable us to have jobs for everybody. You called the European

:20:18.:20:21.

Union a superstate based on capitalism. You have consistently

:20:22.:20:24.

voted against further integration and you were one of the biggest

:20:25.:20:30.

banes of Tony Blair's life as an EU rebel. Can you put your hand on your

:20:31.:20:34.

heart and say that you truly back the EU? Let me be clear of what I

:20:35.:20:38.

have been saying consistently. I believe we should be within Europe

:20:39.:20:42.

but I do not believe the European institutions, as it stands,

:20:43.:20:45.

functions effectively. It needs to be more open and democratic so I am

:20:46.:20:49.

campaigning to remain within Europe, within the EU, but to reform the EU.

:20:50.:20:51.

I want to put a quote to you. It is easier for people to imagine

:20:52.:21:08.

the end of the earth than the end of capitalism. That is what we are

:21:09.:21:10.

about. That sounds like the John McDonnell that we know. That is a

:21:11.:21:13.

quote from a guy called Jamieson. Which I quoted in an article in the

:21:14.:21:16.

New Yorker. I want to transform our system. I do not believe that

:21:17.:21:17.

capitalism serves the system. I do not believe that

:21:18.:21:21.

of capitalism? I want to transform the system, which means adapting

:21:22.:21:29.

capitalism. We need to change the European system

:21:30.:21:32.

capitalism. We need to change the and democratic

:21:33.:21:34.

capitalism. We need to change the stranglehold. So you want to

:21:35.:21:37.

capitalism. We need to change the in the same club

:21:38.:21:42.

capitalism. We need to change the Goldman Sachs? And I want to

:21:43.:21:42.

challenge their Goldman Sachs? And I want to

:21:43.:21:47.

European Union at the moment, an economic policy, it means you are

:21:48.:21:51.

shouting down the letterbox. You will not be in their negotiating,

:21:52.:21:52.

you will not be working will not be in their negotiating,

:21:53.:21:57.

other social Democratic parties and progressive movements to transform

:21:58.:22:06.

Europe. To work for the end of capitalism? To transform capitalism,

:22:07.:22:08.

working for our economic system. Let's talk about anti-Semitism.

:22:09.:22:09.

First, Baroness Janet Royle was looking into anti-Semitism at Oxford

:22:10.:22:15.

and she said that Labour members who are guilty of anti-Semitism should

:22:16.:22:19.

not be out of the party for life. What is your view? I took a strong

:22:20.:22:21.

view on this. I What is your view? I took a strong

:22:22.:22:25.

serious enough, I do not want these people to be members of our party.

:22:26.:22:29.

So we have a difference of view. I think any form of racism now,

:22:30.:22:33.

wherever it is, particularly within our party, we have to be extremely

:22:34.:22:38.

wherever it is, particularly within in the future. She has written this

:22:39.:22:39.

that will report so presumably

:22:40.:22:50.

that will to our national executive committee

:22:51.:22:54.

and it will influence policy in the future. Let's

:22:55.:22:56.

and it will influence policy in the Livingstone. Can he ever be a member

:22:57.:22:57.

of the party again? I do not want to process that he will need to go

:22:58.:23:01.

through. But you are saying process that he will need to go

:23:02.:23:03.

cannot be a member of the party. process that he will need to go

:23:04.:23:08.

Everybody has to have a fair process. I cannot influence that

:23:09.:23:12.

process in advance, whether it is Ken Livingstone or any other member.

:23:13.:23:16.

I cannot do that. I have made my view absolutely clear on what I feel

:23:17.:23:21.

about anti-Semitism and if someone is being anti-Semitic within our

:23:22.:23:25.

party, I have made my view clear. It is for due process within our party

:23:26.:23:29.

and the real authorities to judge. As you say yourself, these

:23:30.:23:33.

committees will be As you say yourself, these

:23:34.:23:37.

entirely. So if they are entirely independent, then you can say what

:23:38.:23:40.

you want right now and it will have no impact on the committee. Whatever

:23:41.:23:44.

I say now we'll have some influence and I do not want to prejudge

:23:45.:23:50.

Fifty years ago, when Mao Zedong unleashed millions of China's

:23:51.:23:52.

youth to attack parents, teachers institutions,

:23:53.:23:54.

temples, the Party itself, they set out to destroy the very

:23:55.:23:57.

The Red Guard persecuted 36 million people and killed more

:23:58.:24:06.

than a million as Mao pursued his cult of personality.

:24:07.:24:09.

In a moment I'll be speaking to the author of one

:24:10.:24:11.

of the best-selling books of all time, Wild Swans,

:24:12.:24:13.

whose family lived through the Cultural Revolution, but first -

:24:14.:24:16.

The great proletarian Cultural Revolution.

:24:17.:24:34.

Its stated aim, to wipe out the four olds.

:24:35.:24:36.

Old customs, old culture, old habits, and old ideas.

:24:37.:24:47.

To that end, Mao unleashed his Red Guards, bands of zealous students

:24:48.:24:50.

sent out to beat their elders into submission.

:24:51.:24:55.

But the real aim was not culture but politics.

:24:56.:24:58.

The Cultural Revolution was a purge of Mao's enemies at the top

:24:59.:25:01.

It resulted in years of violence and terror.

:25:02.:25:04.

Today, China is a very different place.

:25:05.:25:08.

Maoism has been replaced by capitalism, known

:25:09.:25:10.

euphemistically as socialism with Chinese characteristics.

:25:11.:25:23.

And yet, the Communist Party that provided over the cultural

:25:24.:25:28.

Just as in Mao's day, there are still power struggles

:25:29.:25:32.

Purges now happen in the courtroom, not as lynches

:25:33.:25:46.

But they are purges nonetheless.

:25:47.:25:55.

Some old habits have survived.

:25:56.:25:58.

Just as in Mao's day, official policy is enunciated

:25:59.:26:00.

Yesterday, on the 50th anniversary of the start of the

:26:01.:26:04.

Cultural Revolution, it was silent on the matter.

:26:05.:26:06.

But today an editorial in the People's Daily calls

:26:07.:26:08.

the Cultural Revolution huge disaster, one which

:26:09.:26:10.

The lessons of history, it says, have given China asserting

:26:11.:26:13.

"Nobody", it concludes, "fears turmoil and desires

:26:14.:26:16.

Jung Chang is the author of Wild Swans and also

:26:17.:26:19.

First of all, in Wild Swans you write about three generations living

:26:20.:26:27.

through the cultural Revolution. Can you explain how bad it was? Well, I

:26:28.:26:35.

was 14 when the cultural Revolution started in 1966. Schools were

:26:36.:26:43.

closed. There was no schooling, and children were encouraged to attack

:26:44.:26:45.

their teachers. I saw my teacher being tortured, subjected to

:26:46.:26:52.

gigantic denunciation meetings, being beaten up. I saw fellow pupils

:26:53.:27:02.

trying to commit suicide. It was a nightmare. But for your own family,

:27:03.:27:10.

what happened? Well, my parents were victims of the Cultural Revolution.

:27:11.:27:15.

My father was one of the few who spoke out against the violence. As a

:27:16.:27:22.

result, he was arrested, tortured, driven insane. And he was exiled to

:27:23.:27:26.

a camp and died maturely and tragically. My mother was under

:27:27.:27:34.

pressure to denounce my father but she refused. So she was subject to

:27:35.:27:41.

over 100 of these ghastly enunciation meetings. Basically, the

:27:42.:27:47.

victims were stood on the platform, facing a hysterical crowd. My

:27:48.:27:52.

mother's arms, like other victims, were twisted to the back, and she

:27:53.:27:57.

was kicked and beaten. Did you witness this? Yes, we all saw this.

:27:58.:28:02.

People of my generation have all seen this. And have been brutalised.

:28:03.:28:08.

And you still feel that, you still feel that part of you has been

:28:09.:28:13.

scarred by it? I feel that yes, I feel strongly. In a way, I am very

:28:14.:28:18.

lucky as I was able to read a book about it. I wrote Wild Swans and I

:28:19.:28:24.

turned the trauma into memory, so I can talk to you about it. But I

:28:25.:28:30.

wonder, the people of your age now, the people that are 14, 15 now,

:28:31.:28:37.

unless they have read Wild Swans, where will they get any information

:28:38.:28:40.

about it? What do young Chinese people know about the Cultural

:28:41.:28:44.

Revolution? Basically, not much. Because my books are banned in

:28:45.:28:51.

China. Like other books of a kind. There are people who are saying

:28:52.:28:57.

these mindless things in favour of the Cultural Revolution. Things that

:28:58.:29:03.

do not get banned. A lot of people do not really know what happened.

:29:04.:29:09.

The really curious ones can search the internet, trying to climb over

:29:10.:29:14.

the firewall, but many others just don't know. And I wonder what you

:29:15.:29:19.

think about the future in China, whether you would think China would

:29:20.:29:24.

ever move to a 1-party state, or do you think that this idea of economic

:29:25.:29:30.

advancement and a 1-party state will continue because people are just too

:29:31.:29:34.

frightened of change? I am afraid it is going to continue for a long

:29:35.:29:41.

time, and basically I think that most people, if you ask them, they

:29:42.:29:47.

would say that democracy is a good idea. But most people would also

:29:48.:29:52.

fear what might happen in transition, whether they might be

:29:53.:29:56.

getting something worse than they got today. But that is almost not

:29:57.:30:04.

the issue. I think the issue is that there should be an open discussion

:30:05.:30:10.

about the Cultural Revolution, because the Communist Party itself

:30:11.:30:18.

has categorically rejected it. Finally. After chairman now died. --

:30:19.:30:29.

Chairman Mao died. I think that is the real issue. From my point of

:30:30.:30:33.

view, I would like to see my books published in China. Thank you very

:30:34.:30:34.

much. The psychedelic sixties

:30:35.:30:37.

as celebrated by writers such as Tom Wolfe in

:30:38.:30:39.

The Electric Cool Aid Acid Test, featuring Ken Kesey,

:30:40.:30:42.

and the poetry of Allen Ginsberg are all a half a century ago

:30:43.:30:44.

now, but psychedelia Researchers at Imperial College

:30:45.:30:46.

have, for the first time today, published the results of a trial

:30:47.:30:53.

into psilocybin and its effects The substance is the 'magic'

:30:54.:30:55.

element in magic mushrooms Doctors believe it could have

:30:56.:31:01.

medicinal qualities. The only slight problem is,

:31:02.:31:09.

it's a banned substance. In an ordinary hospital

:31:10.:31:11.

room, something very out Step by step, it's being transformed

:31:12.:31:17.

into a psychedelic lounge. Over the last 12 months,

:31:18.:31:29.

patients with severe drug resistant depression have been brought

:31:30.:31:33.

into this room and given a strong and illegal hallucinogenic,

:31:34.:31:39.

psilocybin, the active ingredient In charge of this radical new drug

:31:40.:31:41.

trial is scientist Robin So the room has been transformed

:31:42.:31:47.

from a bog-standard hospital room We're trying to provide

:31:48.:31:52.

a setting that is supportive, warm, nurturing, where the patient

:31:53.:32:03.

can feel safe and supported, and free and able to

:32:04.:32:07.

open up, really. This is one of a number of recent

:32:08.:32:12.

trials reviving some of the most controversial psychiatric research

:32:13.:32:16.

of the 1950s and 1960s. After receiving a small dose of LSD,

:32:17.:32:20.

they're confused and undisciplined. Around 40,000 patients

:32:21.:32:24.

worldwide were treated with psychedelics for everything

:32:25.:32:26.

from alcoholism to schizophrenia. That all stopped when governments

:32:27.:32:33.

around the world began Half a century later,

:32:34.:32:37.

and doctors are tentatively picking up this research,

:32:38.:32:43.

with around a dozen trials now worldwide beginning to explore

:32:44.:32:46.

medical uses of psychedelics. Andrew Thayer was one of 20

:32:47.:32:50.

patients on the trial. He's struggled with depression

:32:51.:32:54.

for two decades. It's hard to describe

:32:55.:32:59.

the hopelessness that you feel I got to a place last November

:33:00.:33:01.

where I had pretty much given up, I thought, I just can't

:33:02.:33:19.

do this any more. He found out about the trial

:33:20.:33:21.

online and applied. That is how, three months ago,

:33:22.:33:23.

he found himself in a hospital room in West London, being given

:33:24.:33:28.

a Class A psychedelic drug. Roz Watts is a clinical psychologist

:33:29.:33:37.

who helps guide patients I was surprised at the level of his

:33:38.:33:40.

suffering because when we met him he was so charming and sensitive

:33:41.:33:44.

to other people's needs and so great at conversation

:33:45.:33:47.

that it was difficult to see the suffering at first, but we did

:33:48.:33:54.

see it in the dosing days. We realised how much he had

:33:55.:33:57.

been struggling against. It started off fairly pleasantly,

:33:58.:34:14.

but it soon got pretty dark. I described it as a

:34:15.:34:21.

black tide coming in. Often with psychedelics,

:34:22.:34:30.

emotions and difficult experiences that have been repressed

:34:31.:34:32.

because they are so uncomfortable And that can be very healthy

:34:33.:34:35.

and very positive in terms of change because avoidance of difficult

:34:36.:34:47.

emotion is really at the heart Roz said, just concentrate on this

:34:48.:34:50.

rose, and she picked up the rose This rose had taken on a life

:34:51.:35:10.

of its own, and was definitely trying to communicate that

:35:11.:35:17.

everything is fine, beautiful. It's worth saying that patients had

:35:18.:35:23.

a variety of different experiences It was unclear at the time

:35:24.:35:26.

what long-term effect Today, scientists published

:35:27.:35:31.

their results in the Lancet. So these are the results

:35:32.:35:38.

from the study so far, This is a measure of the severity

:35:39.:35:41.

of patients' depression. You can see one week

:35:42.:35:55.

post-treatment, you can see that virtually every

:35:56.:35:59.

patient shows some decrease But the results do look much more

:36:00.:36:01.

mixed when you go past one week. When you go past three months,

:36:02.:36:05.

there are patients that are kind That's right, and so we are seeing

:36:06.:36:08.

signs of relapse in That's quite common in depression,

:36:09.:36:13.

particularly treatment It tells us really that this

:36:14.:36:21.

isn't a magic cure. Even so, if we were to take average

:36:22.:36:25.

scores, even up to three months and six months post-treatment,

:36:26.:36:29.

the really is quite a highly significant decrease

:36:30.:36:31.

in depressive tendencies. The researchers believe that

:36:32.:36:32.

psilocybin increases the It's speculated that in depression

:36:33.:36:34.

the brain gets stuck into repetitive negative

:36:35.:36:42.

patterns of thinking. So if we can introduce

:36:43.:36:44.

a kind of flexibility into the mind and into the brain,

:36:45.:36:47.

then perhaps that can help us shift an individual out of that rut

:36:48.:36:51.

that they have become stuck in. The problem is at this stage

:36:52.:36:56.

and this is only a theory. On the study itself is not

:36:57.:36:59.

without its difficulties. There is an ethical issue here,

:37:00.:37:01.

isn't there, of taking people who are very severely depressed,

:37:02.:37:03.

taking them off antidepressants, giving them a Class A drug and then

:37:04.:37:11.

not giving them the therapy If they decide to come

:37:12.:37:14.

off their medication, We closely monitor them,

:37:15.:37:17.

and we stay in contact with their mental health

:37:18.:37:21.

practitioner or GP. I think people should consider

:37:22.:37:24.

that if ever they think, I want to go out and find some magic

:37:25.:37:27.

mushrooms, and I have to come In the context of this

:37:28.:37:31.

trial, the way we did Three months after Andy's trial,

:37:32.:37:38.

and he is still coming to terms I think what I am experiencing

:37:39.:37:42.

are after-shocks. Because even now, I will have good

:37:43.:37:49.

days and bad days but some of the good days are outnumbering

:37:50.:37:54.

the bad days and I am And I wouldn't have

:37:55.:37:57.

thought that was possible. On the whole, I think it has

:37:58.:38:02.

moved me into a different direction. It has kicked me out

:38:03.:38:05.

of the rut, as it were. Andy believes that psilocybin has

:38:06.:38:11.

benefited him but the trial, by clinical standards,

:38:12.:38:16.

is tiny and researchers admit that much more evidence is needed before

:38:17.:38:18.

they can be sure of the effects Another larger trial

:38:19.:38:21.

is planned, but this kind It's unlikely then, that your local

:38:22.:38:25.

GP will be able to prescribe There was a lot of apron wringing

:38:26.:38:29.

about the BBC's announcement today that 11,000 recipes would be excised

:38:30.:38:43.

from the website and new ones Such was the brouhaha

:38:44.:38:46.

that the BBC changed the plan. Now they're saying that most

:38:47.:38:51.

of the recipes will now appear To celebrate, we've come up

:38:52.:38:53.

with our own contribution... I am now cooking very quickly some

:38:54.:39:14.

linguine with spicy tomato sauce and mussels. I would just like to tell

:39:15.:39:17.

you that I have been cooking these tomatoes with red and Ian, chilli

:39:18.:39:22.

and garlic for the duration of the programme. They are almost ready. To

:39:23.:39:27.

finish them off I will add some tinned tomatoes to give moisture and

:39:28.:39:32.

on the right-hand side I cooking up fresh linguini. I'm going to make

:39:33.:39:40.

sure these are well mixed in. Then with the mussels I have cooked them

:39:41.:39:45.

in white wine and spring onion and I have shelled all of them except for

:39:46.:39:49.

some which I will use for garnish. Now I am going to pop this straight

:39:50.:39:58.

into here. The important thing is to whiz it up. I appear not to have

:39:59.:40:05.

anyone from Masterchef to help me. I will put it here and I will with

:40:06.:40:15.

this up. Just to make sure it does not splutter any of the crew. I will

:40:16.:40:25.

just keep this going, to get all that, I quite like a bit of texture

:40:26.:40:30.

in it. That great word, texture! That is just about done. So now what

:40:31.:40:36.

I am going to do is strain my linguini. Brilliant. I'm going to

:40:37.:40:46.

put my linguini in here. And once that is fully... I'm just going to

:40:47.:40:49.

mix this straight into my tomato sauce. I'm going to mix it up and

:40:50.:40:57.

I'm going to add my mussels, like so. This is quite quick, easy dish

:40:58.:41:01.

to do. And then, first so. This is quite quick, easy dish

:41:02.:41:08.

little into the plate and so. This is quite quick, easy dish

:41:09.:41:13.

Jung Chang if she would like to have some. This looks messy and would not

:41:14.:41:19.

pass the test. I'm going to put a little on here and garnish it with a

:41:20.:41:23.

couple of mussels and I am going to give Jung Chang a little linguini

:41:24.:41:31.

with mussels. Spicy! Not beautifully served. Wonderful, wonderful, this

:41:32.:41:37.

is my dinner! If you like the recipe right in with a stamped addressed

:41:38.:41:42.

envelope for my tomato spiced linguini with mussels and a little

:41:43.:41:44.

parsley for garnish. OK? Good evening, Wednesday will be very

:41:45.:42:06.

changeable, threatening clouds never far away, the chance of catching

:42:07.:42:12.

changeable, threatening clouds never across England,

:42:13.:42:15.

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