Browse content similar to 26/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight: It's a deal worth more than ?18 billion and described | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
by this Government as essential for the UK's energy plans. | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
But Newsnight reveals that there are new doubts | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
about whether Hinkley C nuclear plant will ever be built. | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
And official consultation of the committee which represents the staff | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
and unions within EDF is currently going ahead, Newsnight has | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
exclusively spoken to the secretary of that committee and we have | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
learned that the consultation is not going well. For the company. | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
Also tonight: Net migration rises again to its second | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
As immigration hits centre stage in the EU debate, | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
we'll ask this Government minister and Brexiteer | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
And Scotland's First Minister raises the prospect of a second referendum | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
If Scotland is in the situation where we are faced with being taken | :00:54. | :01:02. | |
out of the year even though we voted to stay in, of course there would be | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
many people in Scotland, not everybody, but many who would say, | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
we need to protect our EU membership. And, today in the United | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
States. It could be that we will run against crazy Bernie, could become a | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
crazy Bernie, here's a crazy man, but that is OK, we like crazy | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
people! On the day Donald Trump | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
all but clinches the Republican nomination, why is the man he calls | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
"Crazy" Bernie about to face him We'll debate whether divisions | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
in the Democrat party are making We begin tonight with fresh | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
revelations about the future of the planned ?18 billion power | :01:42. | :01:49. | |
plant at Hinkley Point in Somerset. It had originally been | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
due to open next year, but has been hit by delay | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
after delay after delay, and now won't open until 2026 | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
at the earliest. The latest setback came a month ago | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
when the company said it was delaying giving the project | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
the go-ahead until it had | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
consulted its trade unions, Now Newsnight has exclusively been | :02:10. | :02:10. | |
told that that consultation has so far done nothing to reassure | :02:11. | :02:18. | |
the unions, and that there is little chance | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
of them giving their blessing VOICEOVER: A symbol of so much, | :02:24. | :02:39. | |
Hinkley C, a huge infrastructure plan, and ?18 million the life which | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
could supply 7% of our electricity. -- ?18 billion a liar. It will be | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
built by EDF, the electricity company majority-owned by the French | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
state, and it is a victory in the attempts to court Beijing, a third | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
of the capital will come from China. -- goliath. At the outset, critics | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
had concerns about whether we may be overpaying for Hinkley C, but today, | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
the real danger to this project comes from France, we are still | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
awaiting final sign off. In France, the finance director left EDF over | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
concerns about whether the financial risk of Hinkley C was too great, to | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
understand why, it is worth looking across the Channel, two other places | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
where it is building the same model of reactor as it plans for Hinkley | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
C, the so-called EPR. It is an immensely save enormous structure, | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
which, however, looks as though it is almost uncontrollable. There are | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
two projects around the world where this exactly the same design very | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
much the same design being constructive. Both of them are in | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
enormous difficulty. The one in Finland is about ten years late, in | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
Normandy, being created by EDF, that will be in the order of 12 years | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
late at least. The French energy minister has already stated publicly | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
that she has concerns about the cost and the risks associated with | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
Hinkley C, the unions, who have particularly powerful officials | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
within the state-owned company, also have concerns, they want the project | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
forward. This week, the French finance minister, wrote to British | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
MPs to explain to them that the project was still on track, but | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
right now, there is a moratorium on Hinkley C, and that is because an | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
official consultation of the committee which represents the staff | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
and unions within EDF is going ahead. Newsnight has exclusively | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
spoken with the secretary of the committee, and we have learned that | :04:40. | :04:41. | |
the consultation is not going well, for the company. We were told: | :04:42. | :05:15. | |
unions do not have a veto, could EDF press ahead against their will? | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
Going for it would be for the government crossing a red line in | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
their relationship with the trade unions, which would make it really | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
difficult for the government, especially thinking about the next | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
general election, where they will need to get back some support of the | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
trade unions. Remember where we started, this is a political project | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
as well as an economic project. The political commitments is completely | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
confirmed, we back Hinckley point, it is very important for France, it | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
is very important for the nuclear sector and EDF. -- Hinkley Point. | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
Others are less convinced. I do not believe that it is going to start | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
one day, I think that the chance is that it does not come online | :06:07. | :06:15. | |
increase. The reason being... Making the decision for the project is not | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
possible right now. The political cost, the cost for EDF's financial | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
situation is too high. That could leave our government in an odd | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
position, accused of paying too much for a nuclear power plant at home | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
and in driving a hard bargain that was not deliverable abroad. | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
STUDIO: The day the latest migration figures were released by the Office | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
of National Statistics was always going to be a big moment | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
The increase in net migration in 2015 was 20,000, bringing | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
the figure to 330,000, and Boris Johnson called it | :06:52. | :06:53. | |
a "scandalous Government failure", his Government's failure. | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
He was referring to the Government's aspiration | :06:56. | :06:56. | |
to cut the number to under 100,000. | :06:57. | :06:58. | |
"The system has spun out of control," he exclaimed. | :06:59. | :07:00. | |
So what exactly would the Brexiteers do about it? | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
In a moment I'll be speaking to the Northern Ireland Secretary, | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
Theresa Villiers, one of the six Cabinet members backing an EU exit. | :07:06. | :07:14. | |
But first here's our political editor Nicholas Watt. | :07:15. | :07:22. | |
VOICEOVER: From the shores of Sicily to the borders of Ukraine, | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
uncontrolled flow of migrants entitled to enter Britain, that is | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
the message spelt out in Churchill style language that the main Brexit | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
campaign has delivered spell out the core reason for wanting to leave the | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
EU, today was a big moment for the vote Leave campaign, the reason the | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
final set of migration statistics before the referendum, net migration | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
rose rainier record peak of 330,000 last year, illustrating a key theme, | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
until the UK takes full control of its borders, it will fail to meet | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
the government 's target of reducing net migration below 100,000. | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
The blue line shows the greatest portion of EU migration is from all | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
the member states, part of the club before the Big Bang expansion in | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
2004, the yellow line shows the eight Eastern European countries | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
that joined in 2004, the red line shows Romania, and Bulgaria, which | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
joined in 2007. One senior Brexit figure believes that wherever they | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
are coming from, the numbers must fall. The right number will be in | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
the tens of thousands, between the low tens, and up to about 100,000. I | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
find it hard to imagine a circumstance where it would be | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
beneficial to Britain to have more than 100,000 every year. But, you | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
must let the economy drive that. The vote to leave campaign is focusing | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
heavily on immigration in the final phase of the campaign to get the | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
vote out, a full 58% of the electorate believe that immigration | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
would fall if the UK left the EU. Clear red line for the government is | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
that the British people are voting to leave the European Union on the | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
23rd, on the 24th, the government must recognise that one key | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
component of what they voted forward border control. Whatever else we | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
discuss and negotiate with the European Union about whatever kind | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
of arrangements over trade, border control is our red line, that is | :09:32. | :09:32. | |
exactly what they voted. White Vote -- Vote Leave has ambitions beyond | :09:33. | :09:42. | |
June 24, they believe that by gaining full control of the UK | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
borders, the government of the day will be able to achieve something | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
unprecedented in the modern era, consent for immigration. Vote Leave | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
source said that he dreams of a day when he will be able to stand up in | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
Parliament and make the case for higher immigration on the basis that | :09:59. | :10:00. | |
the UK alone would be setting a limit is. -- one Vote Leave source. | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
It is not beyond our wits to come up with a system which would be a | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
combination, whether it is an Australian points system, | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
recognition of historic links and responsible it is, skills needed, | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
all of those things, but the key element is that it is decided at | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
Westminster and has the consent of the people who have elected us. An | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
absence of consent does not allow you to take that kind of leadership. | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
Required to say that within controlled immigration can and is a | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
good thing. Tonight, the first official debate of the campaign was | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
held in Glasgow. Immigration was to the fore. Are you saying that if | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
Britain votes to leave, there would be visas or there would not? | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
Victoria, we just do not know. We just do not know. BOOING | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
Because we have a Prime Minister who has said that there is no Plan B, he | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
has not presented a single bit of detail as to what happens, if we | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
vote to leave, and he has left it all completely open. These exchanges | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
highlighted the need to tread carefully on such a sensitive | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
subject, think of immigration as a lily pad, I was told, allowing the | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
vote leave frog to jump into less contentious areas, like pressures on | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
the NHS, in a way that appeals across the political spectrum, they | :11:31. | :11:31. | |
believe they have a path to victory. STUDIO: I am joined by the Northern | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, who wants to see the UK | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
leave the EU. Good evening, let's go through a few | :11:41. | :11:49. | |
of the migration issues. If we vote to leave the EU, we close borders, | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
is that correct? We would still have immigration if we vote to leave the | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
EU, the different would be that the people we vote to elect at | :12:00. | :12:08. | |
Westminster would decide. Would there be fewer people, do you agree | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
with the point by David Davis, maximum 100,000 every year? It gives | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
us the chance to bring down the current numbers. That is the idea. | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
Without taking control of immigration policy again, we have no | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
chance of getting a grip on the current numbers. You think the | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
numbers are too high. I think they are too high. We have a manifesto | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
commitment to get them down under 100,000. Let's say that the economy | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
is doing extremely well and you need workers, and you need workers from | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
all over the world, if you needed 330,000 workers, you would be happy | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
to have 330,000? If you had 350,000 that you need it, would that be | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
happy? We have a commitment to bring down the numbers below 100,000, call | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
me old-fashioned, we should try to achieve that. That is a principle, | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
100,000, no matter if the economy was booming and you needed those | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
workers, the door would be closed? The reality is that we would | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
introduce a more intelligent system, focused on the skills gap, which | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
judges people more fairly, from wherever they come in the world, | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
judged on merit rather than if they happen to come from an EU country. | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
No matter how things are going, you say you cannot see a situation where | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
we would need more than 100,000 every year? Beyond the next general | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
election it is up to the party to put forward their numbers, but we | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
have a manifesto commitment, obviously we are determined to | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
deliver on that. Below 100,000? Obviously in the future, after a | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
general election, those commitments can change, at the moment, our | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
commitment is to bring numbers down below 100000 and there is a lot of | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
support for that. Let's talk about how this will work. | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
Let's just talk about how this would work. Let's say you have Britons | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
working in France, would they have to come back home and apply for | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
visas? It is very clear that if immigration rules change, they can't | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
apply retrospectively, so no one who is already working in France would | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
be forced to come back. That is what you say, but the French might not | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
say it. We are all banned by international conventions, so it is | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
clear that whether you are an EU worker in the UK or a work in the | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
rest of Europe, rules on freedom of movement do not apply | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
retrospectively. So let's say that there is a Polish nurse here now, | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
but she wants to bring her mother over after we would hypothetically | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
leave the EU. Would you have to get a Visa? That will be down to the | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
Government that we elect. The principle here is not leave campaign | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
mandating a new immigration system. We want to give power back to the | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
Government to take decisions on immigration. So is it possible a | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
family member could just come in? If you listen to that debate tonight, | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
Diane James from Ukip were saying we just don't know about visas for | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
people. And people are concerned, if you are a young Polish worker here, | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
your mother is sick in Poland and you want to bring her over, would | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
you need a tech backstreet? What this debate is about is who takes | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
the decisions on migration. There is a great amount of support in this | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
country for taking our own decisions on migration. The beauty of that is | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
we have democratic accountability, at the moment these decisions are | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
made by a council of Ministers, the European court of justice, not by | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
people who are elected. So a young Polish person who can vote in this | :15:57. | :15:58. | |
EU Referendum Bill but a young person from Britain can. So say you | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
are a young architect, you want to go to Berlin or Prague. You would | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
need a tech backstreet ago, presumably? We are not mandating the | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
rules would will be applying in the rest of the EU in the event of a UK | :16:13. | :16:21. | |
exit, but there are thousands of citizens from around the world who | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
work in Europe, many of whom do not come from EU member states, there | :16:26. | :16:27. | |
were thousands of the Jewish people who worked in the EU -- thousands of | :16:28. | :16:39. | |
British people working in EU before we joined. But this is putting | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
pressure on our public services and housing. But people thinking about | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
how they are going to vote want answers. Every young person wants to | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
go to Europe to be an architect, or if a young German person wants to | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
come here and learn to be an architect, they will have to have a | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
visa, is that right? There may be changes in the terms on which people | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
can travel, but these would be decided in Britain as a result of | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
democratically accountable decisions, and we ought to take into | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
account another problem for young people and that mass migration from | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
Europe is depressing wages in this country, that is a fact. Let's talk | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
about security. We already know the French have said that there will be | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
no border in Calais, the border will have to go back over here. The | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
French government have said various different things about this. The | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
Justice Minister has been supportive of those arrangements. The reality | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
is the French camp all the plug... The Financial Times, March the 3rd, | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
Emanuel macron, the French Minister said, the day this unravels, | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
migrants will no longer be in Calais, they will be on the dish | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
coast, won't they? The French home affairs Minister has been very | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
supportive of this. It is a bilateral arrangement, the French | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
could all the plug right now they wanted to, but the reasons the | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
arrangement is in place is because it is in the interests of both | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
France and the UK, so there is no reason for them to pull the plug. | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
But the point is, the migrants who want to come here, why would the | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
French bother stopping them, locking them up, having them in the | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
so-called Jungle at Calais? It will be up to Britain to deal with them | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
when they wish. But this arrangement is in France's interest as well as | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
the UK's, otherwise it wouldn't be in operation now. Let's look | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
somewhere else, and this is your territory, where we have a land | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
border between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, and there is no | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
question of the Republic of Ireland leaving the EU. Will that border the | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
entirely open? I would say it will be entirely open. We had a common | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
travel area allowing free movement of people between the Republic of | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
Ireland and the United Kingdom ever since the creation of the Irish | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
state 100 years ago. But there wasn't free movement of peoples and | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
the rest of the EU. So in your view, should there be an open border | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland? Definitely. The | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
Common travel area survived a civil war, World War I30 years of the | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
Troubles. It will survive the exit. So theoretically, any member from | :19:29. | :19:30. | |
European state could come to Southern Ireland and go straight | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
into Northern Ireland and into the United Kingdom? There is nothing to | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
stop them doing that. , travel area gives rights to Irish citizens which | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
would be absolutely maintained in the event of a Brexit. I don't mean | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
are citizens. I mean other people who wish to enter the UK, can | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
somebody do it through the Northern Ireland Southern Ireland open | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
border? There would be certain risks to be managed in retaining an open | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
border in the event of a Brexit vote, but very similar risks already | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
occur and are appropriately managed through Corporation between the | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
authorities... What are those risks? Individuals coming into Ireland who | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
may not have an entitlement to come into the UK, so those risks occur | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
today. The idea that suddenly we will have hundreds of thousands of | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
citizens from other EU countries heading across-the-board between | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
Ireland and the UK, it is fanciful, to be honest. If we change the rules | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
on free movement, there would be constraints on the rights of those | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
EU citizens to enter the UK. But if you tighten borders elsewhere, while | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
even this border open? Because of the close relationship that we have | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
between the UK and Ireland. Because that open border has served us well | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
for 100 years, there is no need to scrap it, and it is important for | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
border areas of Northern Ireland that we keep it. Let's move on to | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
the last hurrah before purdah, the last piece of Treasury analysis. The | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
analysis is that people will be worse off in terms of their pensions | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
between 220 ?330 per year if we leave the EU. You are the former | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Is that a reasonable | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
assumption? I don't believe that it is, and I don't believe people are | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
taken in by what I'm not neutral reports. We can trade these | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
forecasts from here until referendum day, but the last time the Treasury | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
predicted a shock in the way they are doing at the moment was when we | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
were members of the ERM, they said they would be an inflation Russia | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
and the economy would crash, the truth, inflation came down, interest | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
rates came down, we had a decade of growth, they were wrong then and | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
they are wrong now. Theresa Villiers, thank you grow much for | :21:56. | :21:56. | |
joining us. Now, if you're sick of referendums | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
already - surely not! Polls tell us that Scotland is more | :22:01. | :22:02. | |
in favour of remaining in the EU But there's been some suggestion | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
that if the UK votes to leave, Scotland might, in turn, hold | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
another independence referendum. Who better to tell us | :22:12. | :22:13. | |
than Scotland's first Put in the words "our country" | :22:14. | :22:15. | |
instead of "Scotland", and that is a pretty powerful | :22:16. | :22:34. | |
argument for leaving One of the reasons, one of the many | :22:35. | :22:36. | |
reasons I want Scotland to be an independent country is so that | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
as an independent country in an interdependent world, | :22:43. | :22:44. | |
we decide for ourselves the extent to which we share sovereignty | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
and the organisations that we choose I am somebody who believes | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
in Scottish independence, I want Scotland to be | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
outward-looking and play a full part in the world, | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
and the European Union is an organisation I want Scotland, | :23:04. | :23:05. | |
whether it is independent or part But you could argue, | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
and have some sympathy for the argument, presumably, | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
that the EU is a distant force that doesn't actually understand | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
different countries' cultures For me, that is an argument | :23:16. | :23:17. | |
for countries to be in there trying to change and reform the union | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
and make it more responsible I do just think this | :23:22. | :23:23. | |
argument that being a member of the EU is inconsistent | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
with being an independent All 28 member state of the EU | :23:28. | :23:29. | |
are independent countries, and if you go to Germany | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
or France or Sweden... But Scotland is not an | :23:36. | :23:37. | |
independent country. And actually no | :23:38. | :23:51. | |
prospect of being so. We may agree to differ on that, | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
but let's not go there just now. What I'm saying is, whether Scotland | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
is an independent country or part of the UK, I think it is better | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
for our interests overall to be playing a part in the world, | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
cooperating with other independent countries to deal with the issues, | :24:05. | :24:06. | |
climate change, energy security, refugee crises, that | :24:07. | :24:08. | |
countries themselves can't The scenario would be that | :24:09. | :24:10. | |
Scotland votes to remain, but overall, the United | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
Kingdom votes to leave. You have been repeatedly asked | :24:15. | :24:16. | |
about whether or not there would be I am not going to get dragged, | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
no matter how hard you try, I am not going to get dragged | :24:20. | :24:30. | |
too far into the realms of the speculative, | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
because I actually don't want It is only four weeks out, | :24:34. | :24:35. | |
you have to be public, surely. With the greatest of respect, | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
I think I'm entitled in those four weeks as somebody who believes | :24:40. | :24:41. | |
that there should be a Remain vote to argue the case for | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
a Remain vote not only I have argued that | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
for my whole adult life. But I don't want to see the UK vote | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
to come out of the union. On that basis, would you do | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
anything it took? Would you share a platform | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
with David Cameron? I will take part over the next few | :24:59. | :25:00. | |
weeks in some debates around the European Union and membership, | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
but I will make the case that Would you share a platform | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
with David Cameron? There are no plans as far | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
as I am aware... Look, I'm not planning to share | :25:13. | :25:14. | |
a platform with David Cameron, but this is much bigger than just | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
individual politicians. I am having to try hard | :25:19. | :25:20. | |
to keep up with all these Scotland votes to remain, | :25:21. | :25:29. | |
England votes narrowly to go, and Scotland's vote pulls | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
England over the line. What would the atmosphere be | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
like then with the Again, I'm not going to get dragged | :25:40. | :25:41. | |
into the speculation around I hope, and what I'm going to focus | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
on for the next four weeks is playing my part, | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
albeit my small part, in trying to make sure | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
that there is a big overwhelming vote in Scotland, and I hope | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
there is also an overwhelming vote But if there is a vote in Scotland | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
to remain and a vote throughout the rest of the UK to go, | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
can you see a situation in which there wouldn't be | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
the possibility of a referendum? I think, and I have said this | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
before, if Scotland is in the situation where we are faced | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
with being taken out of the EU even though we voted to stay | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
in, particularly given the fact that we were told | :26:16. | :26:17. | |
that it was independence that imperilled our EU membership, | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
then of course I think that there would be many people | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
in Scotland, not everybody, but many people in Scotland, | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
who'd say, we have to protect our EU membership and look again | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
at independence as the way If you were free to do so, | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
and I say this because, as you know, migration is one of the big issues | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
around this EU referendum, if you were free to do so, | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
would you take more non-EU I think countries should | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
have the ability, and Scotland should have the ability, | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
to set its immigration policy based People come into this country | :26:49. | :26:50. | |
from other EU countries and make a net positive | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
contribution to our economy. The figures that are published | :26:56. | :26:57. | |
today, the increase in net migration on my reading is as much to do with | :26:58. | :27:08. | |
a fall in emigration as it is to do There are as many people coming | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
from outside of the EU as that are from inside the EU, | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
so let's have a fact-based Let's not lose sight of that central | :27:18. | :27:19. | |
point, that EU migrants actually make a net positive | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
contribution to our economy, and that is before we talk | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
about the cultural and social advantages of having people able | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
to come here and people from here able to go | :27:30. | :27:31. | |
to other European countries. Looking at who you think | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
your main opposition The principal party | :27:36. | :27:37. | |
of opposition is the Tories. And that says, I think, | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
actually more about the state of the Labour Party in Scotland | :27:42. | :27:43. | |
than it does about the state But I'm more interested | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
in what my job is as the Government of Scotland to lead Scotland, | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
to tackle the challenges we have is a country and to seize | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
the massive opportunities If, the day after the referendum, | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
Scotland is out of the I hope that is not the case, | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
and if that is the scenario we find ourselves in on the 24th of June, | :28:03. | :28:10. | |
I will guarantee I will sit down with you and we will have | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
this conversation. But I'm going to spend as much | :28:14. | :28:15. | |
energy as I can in the almost four weeks now between now and the 23rd | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
of June making the case for that I hope people vote, and I hope | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
people vote in large numbers to stay Nicola Sturgeon says that she will | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
be on Newsnight on the 24th of June. Republican and Democratic | :28:29. | :28:50. | |
presidential candidates traditionally do not debate each | :28:51. | :28:52. | |
other until both parties have selected their nominees, | :28:53. | :28:54. | |
but then there's not much that's So perhaps it shouldn't be | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
a surprise that today we learned that Donald Trump wants | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
to debate the underdog Democratic Party challenger, | :29:01. | :29:02. | |
Bernie Sanders. The move will further | :29:03. | :29:03. | |
frustrate his rival, frontrunner Hillary Clinton, | :29:04. | :29:05. | |
who wasn't invited to this particular showdown, and who has | :29:06. | :29:07. | |
plenty of her own troubles. Today the State Department's | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
Inspector General found that Clinton ignored clear guidance | :29:13. | :29:14. | |
that her e-mail set-up broke agency rules and could have left government | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
secrets vulnerable to hackers. Joining us to discuss these | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
developments are Nomiki Konst, O journalist and broadcaster who | :29:23. | :29:39. | |
used to in turn for Hillary Clinton. I'm not sure why you introduced me | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
as an intern, I did that when I was in college, 15 years ago. It was | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
rather than simply being a supporter, you were somebody who | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
knows Hillary Clinton. No, I don't, I interned on her campaign as a | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
college student. I was booked to discuss my column on Bernie Sanders. | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
If you are looking for someone to speak for the campaign, I should | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
probably encourage you to book summary of. I'm very happy to talk | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
about the entire idea of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, we are | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
live on television, and that is what we would like to talk about. Is | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
there anything wrong with Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump going | :30:23. | :30:23. | |
head-to-head just now? It is kind of adding to the reality | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
show nature of this campaign, I have got to be honest, I was under the | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
impression I was here to discuss a column I wrote for the daily beast | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
about race and Bernie Sanders, I did not know that I was here to talk | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
about the reality show nature of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
ready to have a verbal wrestling match. -- Daily Beast. Really we are | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
just here for your knowledge on the campaign, looking across from the | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
Atlantic. You think that Hillary Clinton should bite the bullet, | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
should she get Memento and going, even if she has to take on Donald | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
Trump now, do that, get some momentum? Yes, I think that she has | :31:04. | :31:11. | |
been critiquing Donald Trump in her speeches, which indicates she's | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
looking ahead to the general, not really focused on the primary | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
anymore, it is unrealistic that Bernie Sanders can catch her in the | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
delegate count, that is what matters in terms of who will be the | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
Democratic nominee. We are in a situation now where Bernie Sanders | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
himself could actually make some traction with this kind of debate, | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
you are keen to talk about Bernie Sanders and race, what is it in | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
particular that you think that he is achieving? The column that I wrote, | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
that I was under the impression I was here to discuss, was the level | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
of harassment that African-American journalists like myself have faced | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
when they have dared to criticise Bernie Sanders, one of the reasons | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
I'm disappointed in how your produces chose to introduce me is | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
one of the misconceptions that Bernie Sanders supporters have been | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
spreading is that anyone who is critical of him must be a supporter | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
of Hillary Clinton or paid by the Clinton campaign. Part of the | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
misinformation of that is that people like myself, who in turn for | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
the Clinton campaign 15 years ago, when I was in college, was described | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
as someone who was a secret supporter of Hillary Clinton. People | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
like Diane Sawyer worked for president Nixon when she was young, | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
she went on to become a very accomplished journalist, her | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
integrity was not questioned. And so I was talking about my piece about | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
how the level of insult attacks and derogatory claims made by Sanders | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
supporters against female journalists and African-American | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
journalists really spoke to a level of indecency and a lack of civility. | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
In the campaign cycle, which we have not seen before. Who is instigating | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
it? Well, look, one of the things I learned in my column is that it was | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
not one person or two people, it was a coordinated effort, I have someone | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
who works in me who reads my mail, the read a lot of my e-mail and | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
social media, and really goes through it, I was attacked so badly | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
for about a week after I wrote several months ago that I did not | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
consider Bernie Sanders particularly electable because polling shows that | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
socialists in America have a very tough time being accepted. By | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
voters. What I found is that the level of attacks were so bad that | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
there were Sanders people that said my Facebook page, please stop | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
attacking her, and after that, one of the Sanders supporters responded | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
in kind, she is a journalist, anything short of violence should be | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
acceptable...? Taking this to the last question which I want to ask, | :33:39. | :33:40. | |
is there something that Hillary Clinton can do to unite this very | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
fractious, if we are to be believed, very fractious Democratic race, | :33:48. | :33:49. | |
obviously you have faced that yourself. | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
The onus is on people like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump to | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
discourage violence at rallies, the onus is on Bernie Sanders to | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
vigorously denounced the threats that female Democratic official in | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
Nevada has received from many of the supporters, death threats that she | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
received, which he did not vigorously denounced, the onus is on | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
him to say that we can disagree, you can hate her writing, you can think | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
Kelly Gough is a terrible writer, I'm sure when the people do, but | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
there is a level of decency, and civility that we need to maintain in | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
our society full. -- Kelli Goff. Thank you very much a joining us. | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
-- that we need to maintain in our society. | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
On Friday President Obama will travel to Hiroshima, | :34:43. | :34:44. | |
becoming the first American president to visit the city | :34:45. | :34:46. | |
where the US dropped the first atomic bomb during World War II. | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
It's a trip his ten predecessors since Truman have avoided. | :34:50. | :34:51. | |
The White House says there will be no apology. | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
But some survivors of the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
We spoke to some survivors about their memories | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
Viewers may find some of their stories distressing. | :35:00. | :38:41. | |
The first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base, that was | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
because we wished in this first attack to avoid insofar as possible | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
the killing of civilians. We have used it in order to sharpen the | :38:54. | :38:55. | |
agony of war. That is all we have time for, good | :38:56. | :42:34. | |
Sky being lit up in the south by a series of thunderstorms, could well | :42:35. | :42:48. | |
be heavy showers around. Across Wales and Southern counties. | :42:49. | :42:50. | |
Steadily fading, then the afternoon | :42:51. | :42:51. |