25/05/2016 Newsnight


25/05/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, with Evan Davis.


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The referendum Catch 22 - campaign hard to appeal to some

:00:00.:00:00.

voters and you lose your appeal to others.

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And it's causing tensions in the Leave campaign.

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Vote leave decided they were going to concentrate on immigration on a

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very negative basis and frighten people away on the issue of

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Legal highs may still get you high, but from midnight

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Will the new blanket ban on psychoactive substances work?

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Also with us, the new chairman of Heathrow.

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He'll explain why his airport should get an extra runway.

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And Lord Sugar, far from sweet when it comes to Donald Trump.

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If I was an American, I would be very, very worried.

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Fortunately I'm an Englishman and I love my country,

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It's not been the best week for the Leave campaign.

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The bookies have cut the chance of a Leave win to 20%

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It's seemed hard for Leave to break the endless trail of establishment

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authorities warning us to stay in the EU to avoid armageddon.

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Well, as the going gets tough, the internal arguments get going,

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and you might have heard here last night that there is to be a change

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of tack in the Leave campaign, with more emphasis to be

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placed on the immigration issue than hitherto.

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But not everybody is happy with that idea.

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The issue will be in sharp focus tomorrow when the latest quarterly

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Our political editor, Nick Watt is with me.

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There has been some internal discussion on this. How do the

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insiders feel the Leave Campaign is going? It is the weekly meeting

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tomorrow and there may be the odd pained face. You are talking about

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the unease we picked up last night about the focus on immigration and

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those tensions bubbled to the service again today when the

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Institute for Fiscal Studies raised questions about the impact of Brexit

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on the UK economy and vote leave started saying we should not take

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this organisation seriously, they are bankrolled by the EU. There was

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a lot of unease in the campaign about that message. Office for

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National Statistics figures out tomorrow should be a big day for the

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Leave Campaign, but I have been speaking to a British-born Pakistani

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MP who signed up for vote leave last year and he wanted to make a

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positive case for immigration and he explained to me why he decided to

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The point came when I decided I shouldn't be a part of this in any

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way at all positively was when the commission

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was considering which would be the lead campaign.

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Everybody literally on the Leave Campaign were trying

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The Leave Campaign decided they were going to concentrate on immigration

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on a very negative basis and try to frighten people away

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That is why most of the BME community in the community

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is actually now pushing very much towards Europe.

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And do you believe the tactics by the leave

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I think the Leave Campaign have failed to put

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They have not put forward any credible academic studies

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on the issue of how the economic situation would be better off

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and that has really hindered them, rather than just concentrating

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on race they should have concentrated on the economic

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message, how positive it would have been to move forward.

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I think a lot of people will have been excited by that.

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Can I just ask you what do you think black and minority ethnic

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voters thought of that vote leave poster, advert, which showed

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millions of Turkish citizens walking through a UK passport interview?

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Totally horrified and appalled by it.

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This is again what makes people really frightened about their own

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status in this country and that was really negative,

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that was absolutely dismal in terms of a national

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These people are isolating them and making them feel like that queue

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of the Turkish and making them feel like they are not part of the UK.

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Boris Johnson has been criticised for casual racism

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after he highlighted what he described as the part Kenyan

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I think Boris's exploration of Barack Obama's heritage

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and pointing out where he came from is totally

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racist and Boris has a lot to apologise for in relation

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What would vote leave say in response to that? They have issued a

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statement of the back of that and in that statement they have said to

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ask, we have always said that we want a fair immigration system, one

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which allows us to prioritise the brightest and best from around the

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world, not just people who happen to be born in other EU countries. We

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will continue to make the positive case for voting to leave the EU.

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They might like to point out that the MP left their campaign a few

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months ago and he was not exactly a major strategist and he was not

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really somebody who attended their board meetings. Where does the

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campaign go from here? What is happening tomorrow? There is a clear

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message from the lead campaign tonight which is we can still win

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this. There was a poll that showed they were tied on 41% and another

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poll that showed the lead campaign were ahead on 44%. Tomorrow critics

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will be saying that they should be making a speech about how they can

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get deals outside the EU. But if you are talking about emigrating you are

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potentially harming your brand in the way that the Conservatives did

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ten years ago when David Davis was Shadow Home Secretary and not happy

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Nick Watt there and a little later we'll hear from Katie Razall

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In 80 minutes' time legal highs become illegal.

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The Psychoactive Substances Act takes effect.

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The Act helpfully explains what it is designed to combat.

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A psychoactive substance means any substance which is

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capable of producing a psychoactive effect, it says.

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But it goes on to explain a psychoactive, but in

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But it goes on to explain a psychoactive effect, but in

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This in fact, giving the Act it's power.

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No longer will ingenious chemists be able to circumvent the law

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with new concoctions, as they're already banned.

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But it is such a broad definition, specific legal exemptions have had

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to be set out for less harmful psychoactive substances

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Secunder Kermani reports on what is a big legal change.

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We're doing Simon's service tomorrow.

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Melanie is preparing to bury her second brother.

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He died after becoming addicted to legal highs.

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Three years ago, he drowned after falling into a river whilst

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Then three weeks ago she found Simon's body next to a packet of

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legal highs. After he died MELANIE JONES: A post on Facebook, shared

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hundreds of times. Her brothers had been heroin addicts for years, but

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Melanie says when they moved on to legal highs their impact was even

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more devastating. We could not make sense of the things they were

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saying, lots of paranoia, divisional thoughts, psychotic episodes. After

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William's death three years ago, Simon became more dependent on legal

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highs. As a family we were emotionally torn between trying to

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grieve for William and to try to support Simon, so it was a difficult

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time for all of us. In the days before his death Simon came to stay

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with Melanie and was playing for a while and even wrote on his Facebook

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about the upcoming ban on legal highs. But then he got an e-mail

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from a company who were selling them. He mentioned an offer that

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they were doing and it was three for two, or free delivery of a certain

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amount, and he said it feels like a sign. The next day Melanie found her

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brother's body. Beside him was a packet of legal highs. I did not say

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that at the time, but when the police came they saw this and it was

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cherry bomb, a brand of legal high, and that was what this was beside

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him. One I saw him I knew he was gone. The legal ban is coming into

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force the day after Simon's funeral. We will always have drugs and

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addiction problems. These drugs will be legal highs, the same drugs sold

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in a different manner. The ban coming into effect is a positive

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step so kids are not getting in tights, walking down the high

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Street, going next door for a count of energy being and into the shot

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next door for a legal high. These are some of the product that from

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midnight the night will be illegal to sell either online or in

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so-called head shots. The Government is bringing the new law into force

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because in the past when it tried to outlaw the particular substance the

:09:59.:10:02.

manufacturers would tinker with it, creating for illegal purposes an

:10:03.:10:07.

entirely new one. However, not everyone is convinced this new law

:10:08.:10:12.

will solve the problem. At this drop-in centre in Birmingham they

:10:13.:10:15.

have seen the numbers addicted to legal highs rise rapidly. This is

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what is collected in this area over the last three years. Many are

:10:22.:10:27.

addicted to synthetic cannabinoids, but their effects are more like

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heroin or crack rather than cannabis. Maybe you take one or two

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and people will be keeling over. To ban these things is a good thing,

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but that is not the full story. Because the demand will not go away?

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The demand will not go away, the reason why people use will not go

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away. I smoke it to stop having stomach pains. Kevin had been taking

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them for years. They see the effects both on the streets and in jail.

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What do they do to your mental health? It has changed a lot of

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people. It has destroyed a lot of people. It has made a lot of people

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more violent. I got stopped about three weeks ago with a screwdriver.

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They are torn about what the effects of the ban will be. We know we will

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still be able to get it next week and the week after. We know and

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everybody else does, but people still take it. Are you in favour of

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it being banned? For what it is doing to people, yes. Britain is

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said to have one of the highest rates of legal high usage in the

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world, but legal highs are not all the same. Laughing gas in festivals

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and nightclubs is one of the substances that will be outlawed. It

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can be dangerous, but far less than synthetic cannabinoids. Specific

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exemptions in the new law have been written in for alcohol and caffeine.

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Here we have... Steven Reid is a user of legal substitutes for drugs

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like LSD that are about to be banned. There are whole range of

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substances that are currently legal and different substances have vastly

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different risk profiles. Things like LSD are extremely safe, but

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synthetic cannabinoids seemed to be much more risky and it seems to me

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that we need to evaluate each class of substances according to its own

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risks and benefits and avoid trying to take this blanket approach. Lots

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of the head shots selling legal highs of all descriptions have been

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closed down in recent months under pressure from local councils and

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trading standards. In Ireland where they passed a similar law six years

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ago they had been completely wiped out, but there have only been a

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handful of prosecutions. For Melanie and her family the law is already

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too late, but having seen both her brothers die and use heroin and

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legal highs, she knows which is the most dangerous. If they were still

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here today and they were addicted to heroin, it might still have caused

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their deaths. But as far as being of healthy mind and still having a

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relationship with their family, then, yes, heroin would have been a

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much better choice. To discuss the ban on legal highs

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here in the studio with me is the Vice journalist and author

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of Narcomania, Max Daly, and from Belfast we have

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Adele Wallace whose son tragically died last year in April

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from taking legal highs. Adele, can you tell us how these

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drugs affected Adam? Legal high drugs totally destroyed my son, he

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was only 17, and still a child when he was using them. They made him

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suicidal, affected him in detrimental ways. He lost everything

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that was of value to him, everything precious. To watch your child change

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like that, and the aggressive violent side kicked in as well, it

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was soul destroying to see this happening before your eyes, and to

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actually have to bury your child at 17 for something that was so easily

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accessed, so cheap and yet so deadly, it beggars beyond belief.

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And as I understand it, he was aware that this was destroying him towards

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the end, correct? Yes, but it got to the point where the drugs were so

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addictive, the legal highs themselves are so addictive, but

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inside there was this little boy that wanted to stop, and he did seek

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help on the 9th of April, and very sadly, he had put a status on

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Facebook prior to that stating very clearly, my life is hell, it is

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miserable, I want to get off these drugs, please don't come near me and

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offer me drugs, don't offer me any of them, it isn't that I don't want

:15:33.:15:37.

to be your friend, but I need to get myself off these. And on the night,

:15:38.:15:43.

he did seek help and spoke to a clinical psychologist from Cahms,

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the child and adult mental health services, but then he took a legal

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high on the 13th, it was not a vast amount, one and a half grams, and

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they usually only band three grams and upwards, it was shared tween

:16:05.:16:09.

three, himself and two others, so it wasn't a vast amount between the

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three, smoked, but it was enough to kill him. It is heartbreaking. Max,

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does everybody agree on the objective that it reducing the

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consumption of these things is a good thing? Yes, because a lot of

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legal highs now, we are talking synthetic cannabinoids, they are

:16:28.:16:35.

pretty nasty things. You have reservations about whether banning

:16:36.:16:38.

is going to actually work or reduce harm, correct? Yes, I understand why

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the Government made this new law. There is no way they could have

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schoolchildren going into these shops next Mothercare or whatever

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and getting extremely potent drugs, it is a ridiculous situation. But,

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and it will probably stop some kids from getting hold of these drugs,

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the fact that the shops will shut down, I spoke to the owner of a head

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shot today, he is shutting down, like most of them will do, and the

:17:09.:17:12.

other ones will get into vague thing, cigarette gaping. -- vaping.

:17:13.:17:24.

But what will happen is the more vulnerable users, such as synthetic

:17:25.:17:29.

weed, they will be on the buy them on the street, because the trade

:17:30.:17:32.

will immediately swapped from shops to the street, and there was a study

:17:33.:17:40.

done in Blackburn last year, and a headshot, the city's main one was

:17:41.:17:44.

shut down by The Authority is, and literally the local crack and heroin

:17:45.:17:48.

dealer bought up all the stock and started selling it on the streets,

:17:49.:17:54.

and to attract customers, you started giving away free pies. So

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you would say it is worse that way than buying it from a shop? Sales

:17:59.:18:03.

will continue to the more vulnerable people. Adele, what you think of

:18:04.:18:08.

that? Do you think Adam, if he hadn't had legal highs, would have,

:18:09.:18:13.

like so many people, bought a legal highs, and whether just changing the

:18:14.:18:18.

status from legal to a legal is something that isn't going to be

:18:19.:18:22.

very material, or is it material? To be honest, Adam was able to access

:18:23.:18:27.

them from shops and also from drug dealers, so in my opinion, it didn't

:18:28.:18:30.

make any difference, he was accessing them both, they were both

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available, but I personally think the legislation is needed, and

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obviously with any legislation there is always room for things to go

:18:43.:18:48.

underground, because where there is money to be made by ill gotten

:18:49.:18:51.

gains, people will abuse it. They need more resources to help people

:18:52.:18:55.

with addiction, because I know for a fact in Northern Ireland there is

:18:56.:18:58.

not enough resources to help with the amount of addiction, and

:18:59.:19:02.

especially with legal highs. There is a big volume in demand, and the

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services are just not there, because it is rife over here, and it is

:19:09.:19:12.

prevalent in all communities, causing havoc in every way, and the

:19:13.:19:17.

worst bit is it is causing massive fatalities. Adele and Max, thank you

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very much indeed. Britain may have been arguing

:19:21.:19:23.

about Europe for decades, but there's one other issue we've

:19:24.:19:25.

been discussing almost as long. Where to build extra

:19:26.:19:27.

airport capacity? Do you remember the Roskill

:19:28.:19:29.

Commission in the '60s that recommended a new airport in

:19:30.:19:31.

Cublington? Well, that didn't happen

:19:32.:19:33.

and we are still waiting Heathrow of course, wants

:19:34.:19:35.

the right to expand. A national hub that has

:19:36.:19:40.

for decades been at the heart Is this patch of West London,

:19:41.:19:43.

conveniently close to the centre of the capital, the best place

:19:44.:19:50.

for a mega world-class airport? With planes having to queue

:19:51.:19:54.

for much of the time, Heathrow struggles to cope

:19:55.:19:59.

with overcrowding, and more airlines Nowhere in the world handles as much

:20:00.:20:01.

traffic on two runways, and last year, a national airports

:20:02.:20:08.

commission recommended that When we asked for proposals,

:20:09.:20:10.

we got more than 50, We have concluded that

:20:11.:20:17.

the north-west runway But the Government has paused

:20:18.:20:20.

for thought and stalled for time, and says it can't

:20:21.:20:24.

make up its mind yet. Heathrow is thus

:20:25.:20:29.

on a charm offensive. Here's the new chairman

:20:30.:20:31.

of the airport in Liverpool. Turn up the temperature a little bit

:20:32.:20:37.

and rehearse the arguments again so people understand it's

:20:38.:20:41.

not just about London. And Heathrow is getting

:20:42.:20:43.

some support there. The expansion of Heathrow

:20:44.:20:50.

isn't about Heathrow, it isn't about the south-east,

:20:51.:20:52.

it's about the whole UK economy. And for us here in Liverpool,

:20:53.:20:55.

it is about connecting Liverpool to the rest of the world,

:20:56.:20:57.

and Heathrow can provide Protests over noise,

:20:58.:21:00.

problems over air pollution, the obstacles to a bigger

:21:01.:21:06.

Heathrow are formidable. Oh, and they include

:21:07.:21:08.

the new mayor, Sadiq Khan. I'm quite clear, unlike Boris

:21:09.:21:14.

Johnson. I don't want to close

:21:15.:21:16.

down Heathrow Airport. I want it to flourish and thrive,

:21:17.:21:19.

to be better not bigger. They've made promises in the past

:21:20.:21:22.

they've failed to deliver. I want the new runway

:21:23.:21:25.

at Gatwick Airport. The new Heathrow chairman does

:21:26.:21:30.

at least have the right background He was in charge of the team

:21:31.:21:33.

organising the London Olympics, and went on to become

:21:34.:21:36.

Treasury Minister responsible Lord Deighton, the new

:21:37.:21:38.

chairman of Heathrow. He started as a Goldman Sachs

:21:39.:21:55.

banker, was chief executive of the London Organising Committee

:21:56.:21:57.

of the Olympic Games and then became Commercial Secretary

:21:58.:22:00.

to the Treasury, taking charge of the UK's national infrastructure

:22:01.:22:02.

plan until last year. Are we going to get a decision soon?

:22:03.:22:06.

For me, this is about the future of the British economy, and what kind

:22:07.:22:09.

of economy we want in the 21st-century, what our level of

:22:10.:22:16.

ambition is. Do we want that airport can -- that can connect us to the

:22:17.:22:23.

rest of the world? And do you think that they will deliver on the

:22:24.:22:27.

promise they made before the election last year, when they were

:22:28.:22:33.

postponing making a decision? We are expecting a decision soon, but they

:22:34.:22:36.

are very distracted at the moment. Let's look at some of the obstacles.

:22:37.:22:43.

Night flight, you have said your night flight, six and a half hours

:22:44.:22:46.

overnight, you will take flight site. You have not promised to do it

:22:47.:22:49.

in quite the way the airport commission had suggested you would

:22:50.:22:53.

do it. Is that a problem for you to do it the weather commission said?

:22:54.:22:58.

We have time to reflect on what commission said, which is leaving a

:22:59.:23:02.

six on hour window. We have pushed it back the other way to distribute

:23:03.:23:06.

the benefits so that people who are suffering from planes taking off at

:23:07.:23:09.

night get just as much respite as the people dealing with early

:23:10.:23:12.

arrivals in the morning. Out the commission OK with that? 5:30am is

:23:13.:23:22.

quite an early time for a plane to be making it's way out over London?

:23:23.:23:28.

It is a lot better than 4:30am. Have the airport commission said that is

:23:29.:23:31.

OK? What we're going to do is give them the evidence to prove it. But

:23:32.:23:35.

they set that as a condition and you haven't currently agreed to that

:23:36.:23:40.

condition strictly. What we have done is said we will bring that in

:23:41.:23:42.

as soon as we get planning permission, not when we get the

:23:43.:23:48.

extra runway, so that is a real benefit. Air quality is the thing

:23:49.:23:52.

that the Government has said is its problem. We have had the vaults

:23:53.:23:54.

wagon scandal, there has been much more concern about London air

:23:55.:23:57.

quality than anyone was thinking about two years ago. Ash max the

:23:58.:23:59.

vaults we at Heathrow will be the leader in

:24:00.:24:15.

terms of sustainable airports. But that is not the planes, you're

:24:16.:24:18.

talking about the vans driving around. On air quality specifically,

:24:19.:24:26.

that is a car and road issue, it is specifically a diesel issue, it is

:24:27.:24:32.

not a plane issue, so it is whether we drag more cars into the airport,

:24:33.:24:36.

and in terms of the other surface access to the airport, rail,

:24:37.:24:41.

bringing in electric cars, we are confident we won't be in breach of

:24:42.:24:46.

air quality rules. This is a London wide traffic problem, it is not an

:24:47.:24:51.

air problem. Nightmare for you but, Boris Johnson

:24:52.:24:55.

becomes Prime Minister, implacably opposed to the third runway at

:24:56.:25:00.

Heathrow, Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London, also opposed to a third

:25:01.:25:07.

runway. If that happens, it's gone? There is no third runway? This is

:25:08.:25:13.

really about the vision you have that the UK economy. You want a

:25:14.:25:16.

first-rate economy with an airport that actually is competitive? Every

:25:17.:25:22.

time we defer the decision, the chief executive at ship all sends us

:25:23.:25:26.

a cake and says thank you, because they are the ones that benefit --

:25:27.:25:40.

Schipol. Not literally? Literally, because they are acting as our third

:25:41.:25:45.

runway. But you won't get a third runway at Boris Johnson becomes

:25:46.:25:49.

Prime Minister. The only question is if he becomes premise in six weeks

:25:50.:25:58.

or four years. In four years you might have started to build the

:25:59.:26:06.

runway. I worked closely with Boris on the tree airport, and he thought

:26:07.:26:09.

that was the vision for the future, but we can explain to him that

:26:10.:26:15.

Heathrow is the only realistic vision to give us the 21st-century

:26:16.:26:18.

economy we need. Good luck trying to persuade him! We have met all the

:26:19.:26:24.

airport commission's conditions on the environment, and that should

:26:25.:26:28.

make the decision a lot easier. There is a rule if you are in

:26:29.:26:32.

government that you can't lobby, you can't use the former contact

:26:33.:26:35.

associates you had in government for two years, so you are now sitting in

:26:36.:26:39.

a job which is basically a lobbying job trying to persuade Government to

:26:40.:26:45.

take a third runway, and you are not able to lobby. I am not able to

:26:46.:26:49.

lobby directly, but there is an enormous amount of other work to do

:26:50.:26:53.

at Heathrow. The arguments are effectively made for the third

:26:54.:26:57.

runway, the case has been put out there, it is for the Government now

:26:58.:27:01.

to make a decision. I have been very focused on making sure that we can

:27:02.:27:05.

do everything internally to make it possible to make that decision, so

:27:06.:27:09.

we are ready to go. We have the money ready, the team ready, we have

:27:10.:27:13.

satisfied the conditions the airport commission laid down, so everything

:27:14.:27:17.

is ready to go, that is my job. It is then to the Government to make

:27:18.:27:21.

its decision. Has Britain a problem with infrastructure? The indecision,

:27:22.:27:25.

the time it takes, look at HS2, Hinkley point, goodness knows if

:27:26.:27:33.

that will ever happen. Is there something in, what you put that down

:27:34.:27:36.

to? I think you can draw different lessons from different projects.

:27:37.:27:41.

Some of course we delivered spectacularly well, we're proud of

:27:42.:27:45.

the Olympics. Crossrail is going well at the moment, and that project

:27:46.:27:49.

will effectively expand London, and I would like to do the same

:27:50.:27:52.

obviously with another runway at Heathrow. The issue is how do you

:27:53.:27:57.

weigh up the long-term economic benefits which everybody enjoys

:27:58.:28:03.

against some of the localised costs which of you suffer, and our

:28:04.:28:06.

political process does spend a long time looking at those short-term

:28:07.:28:12.

costs. Thank you very much. From one Lord to another.

:28:13.:28:14.

Lord Sugar, Alan Sugar, of Apprentice fame, has been

:28:15.:28:17.

appointed as the Government's Enterprise Tsar by

:28:18.:28:18.

This is his second stint at that role because he did it

:28:19.:28:22.

for Gordon Brown some years back, but Gordon Brown lost an election,

:28:23.:28:25.

and Lord Sugar left the Labour Party last year.

:28:26.:28:27.

As he has been public about his support for remaining

:28:28.:28:30.

in the EU, one wonders if the timing of his appointment might have been

:28:31.:28:33.

designed to garner some publicity for his views.

:28:34.:28:35.

Well, I went to meet him in Westminster earlier today,

:28:36.:28:37.

to talk business, politics, almost everything in fact.

:28:38.:28:39.

We began by talking about his new appointment.

:28:40.:28:45.

I wish to instil entrepreneurial spirit and explain

:28:46.:28:47.

the apprenticeship opportunities not just to the young people

:28:48.:28:49.

But you are basically going to be touring the country,

:28:50.:28:58.

It's very similar to what I've done in the past, obviously.

:28:59.:29:04.

I think the important thing is for apprentices to take a job

:29:05.:29:07.

where they are going to learn while they earn, and the Government

:29:08.:29:10.

has laid on the kind of facilities for them to do this, and employers,

:29:11.:29:13.

it is important for employers to understand and put

:29:14.:29:15.

You were of course a member of the Labour Party

:29:16.:29:28.

until about a year ago, and you left because I think

:29:29.:29:31.

you felt they had fallen out of love with business far too much.

:29:32.:29:35.

Yes, that's quite right, and I left at a time before

:29:36.:29:37.

Jeremy Corbyn was appointed, so it looked like I had some

:29:38.:29:41.

You are definitely not going to rejoin now, then?

:29:42.:29:45.

Are you going to join the Conservatives?

:29:46.:29:48.

You are famous, most famous now in this country among

:29:49.:29:55.

young people for filling the role of the Apprentice.

:29:56.:29:57.

Your American counterpart is Donald Trump.

:29:58.:30:01.

You've likened him to Hitler, I don't have that...

:30:02.:30:06.

Whoa, you are starting to sound like Piers Morgan.

:30:07.:30:08.

You don't want to be classed as, you don't want to be categorised

:30:09.:30:13.

I called him the Pied Piper, actually.

:30:14.:30:19.

You said there were comparisons to be made, comparisons

:30:20.:30:21.

How worried are you about Donald Trump?

:30:22.:30:27.

If I was an American, I would be very, very worried.

:30:28.:30:34.

Mr Trump considers himself as a great businessman.

:30:35.:30:36.

I have been in business for 50 years, coming up 50 years now.

:30:37.:30:43.

I haven't put any companies that I am involved in into insolvency

:30:44.:30:46.

You may need to look up your facts and just to see what his history is,

:30:47.:30:53.

and you may need to look up your facts and to see

:30:54.:30:56.

whether the buildings and the businesses that

:30:57.:30:59.

bear his name actually have anything at all to do with him.

:31:00.:31:03.

I understand you are on the side, and I think a lot of businesses

:31:04.:31:13.

I just wonder if I can ask what you think about the campaign.

:31:14.:31:18.

A lot of people are saying that the fear factor

:31:19.:31:21.

of what is meant to happen to us if we come out has been overdone.

:31:22.:31:24.

I am very concerned about this now, it is getting close

:31:25.:31:29.

I am very, very concerned, because ordinary people,

:31:30.:31:36.

what I call ordinary people that I speak to every day

:31:37.:31:39.

They're not stupid, and they know that they are being frightened

:31:40.:31:45.

by the Brexit people and frightened by the staying people,

:31:46.:31:48.

and they really want to understand the reasons why we should either be

:31:49.:31:52.

staying in or the reasons that they are saying we should go.

:31:53.:31:57.

Now, my personal view is that this is crazy,

:31:58.:32:03.

it is absolutely ludicrous we cannot even think about exiting.

:32:04.:32:08.

These people that are advocating exit, with all due respect to them,

:32:09.:32:13.

some of them are politicians, there is an ex-mayor,

:32:14.:32:15.

who has gone off the rails at the moment now.

:32:16.:32:19.

I had a lot of respect for him until a couple of weeks

:32:20.:32:22.

ago with the outlandish things he has been saying.

:32:23.:32:24.

There's 500 million people that we have to sell to,

:32:25.:32:29.

and we need to ship our goods out, they are our biggest,

:32:30.:32:32.

You've said some pretty scathing things about George Osborne

:32:33.:32:38.

"If I were David Cameron, I would think about sacking him."

:32:39.:32:44.

That was Osborne a few years ago - 2012, you said that.

:32:45.:32:47.

I am not here for you to bring up a whole host of things that I might

:32:48.:32:53.

No, but it is fun because you are now working with these guys,

:32:54.:33:00.

and you said all this stuff about them.

:33:01.:33:04.

I am taking on a position to promote entrepreneurial spirit

:33:05.:33:07.

You get this in your head, first of all.

:33:08.:33:11.

Let me throw the question back to you.

:33:12.:33:13.

Not looking for a knighthood, I have been Sir Alan.

:33:14.:33:18.

I am not looking for a peerage, I am a lord.

:33:19.:33:20.

There is nothing in this for me other than my passion to want

:33:21.:33:24.

to instill enterprise into people, and whether it is David Cameron

:33:25.:33:27.

or George Osborne or Jeremy Corbyn or whatever, they should be thankful

:33:28.:33:31.

that they have got someone like me doing it.

:33:32.:33:36.

And you are not going to be toeing any party line or told what to say

:33:37.:33:39.

We heard Nick earlier reporting on arguments on the Leave side

:33:40.:33:59.

about whether the campaign is in danger of alienating minority

:34:00.:34:01.

Does a commonwealth heritage make you more inclined to stay

:34:02.:34:06.

Katie Razzall has the latest of her Referendum Road films now.

:34:07.:34:11.

She went to the West Midlands to find out.

:34:12.:34:16.

It's one of Britain's favourite dishes.

:34:17.:34:18.

Now curry has got mixed up in the EU referendum debate.

:34:19.:34:23.

Restauranteurs complain that tightened immigration rules stop

:34:24.:34:25.

them bringing in skilled chefs and other staff from South Asia.

:34:26.:34:31.

The Leave campaign is promising a vote for Brexit would change that.

:34:32.:34:35.

They say without open borders to Europe, Britain could re-forge

:34:36.:34:38.

I was invited to sample the best Bangladesh could offer up by way

:34:39.:34:48.

of Sutton Coldfield, but do these curry house owners buy

:34:49.:34:51.

The only reason is the staff shortage.

:34:52.:35:00.

Do you blame the Government for that?

:35:01.:35:04.

Definitely the EU, and the second is Government.

:35:05.:35:06.

Have controlled migration, but it is not all open borders.

:35:07.:35:12.

We don't know where we stand at the moment.

:35:13.:35:15.

And if we, obviously with the Commonwealth,

:35:16.:35:19.

we will get more immigration, migration from there as well.

:35:20.:35:21.

So you have picked up that message from the Leave campaign?

:35:22.:35:26.

People coming from Europe, they are no good for us at all.

:35:27.:35:29.

People who have no experience, people who even could not stand

:35:30.:35:35.

the smell of aromatic spices, how can you justify to recruit them,

:35:36.:35:41.

The Prime Minister appeared on the Birmingham-based Sikh Channel

:35:42.:35:57.

recently arguing the case for Remain.

:35:58.:36:00.

British and minority ethnic voters could decide this referendum.

:36:01.:36:04.

According to the British election study, unlike white voters,

:36:05.:36:07.

who appear evenly split on the issue, two thirds of the BAME

:36:08.:36:11.

It is going to be largely a Remain vote for many,

:36:12.:36:21.

Certainly from our programming, we have been out in the Sikh

:36:22.:36:26.

community and we're getting an overwhelming sense that people

:36:27.:36:28.

want to stay as a part of the EU, because this issue really

:36:29.:36:31.

is about segregation and separation, and the Sikh community strongly

:36:32.:36:34.

believe in one world and one society.

:36:35.:36:39.

As well as live news and daily prayers, the Sikh Channel is running

:36:40.:36:42.

a nightly referendum programme up to the vote.

:36:43.:36:46.

I know Vote Leave has raised the idea that if we stop

:36:47.:36:49.

being a member of the EU, we will be able to close our

:36:50.:36:52.

borders, which means we will be able to not take EU migrants necessarily,

:36:53.:36:55.

and choose to bring people in from the Commonwealth instead.

:36:56.:36:58.

I don't think it resonates with the Sikh community,

:36:59.:37:04.

because it seems to be a bit of a shallow argument.

:37:05.:37:07.

We will replace one type of migration with another type

:37:08.:37:10.

That doesn't seem to ring true, and if there is any Asian

:37:11.:37:16.

communities who are supporting that sort of stance, there may

:37:17.:37:19.

be some self-interest in that they want to see people

:37:20.:37:22.

from their home countries be preferred.

:37:23.:37:38.

Long before EU citizens set up home in the UK, immigrants from Britain's

:37:39.:37:42.

colonies were moving here, filling jobs created

:37:43.:37:45.

When Britain last held a referendum on Europe, many argued

:37:46.:37:52.

we were turning our backs on the Commonwealth and those

:37:53.:37:56.

The Commonwealth diaspora helped make the West Midlands the UK's

:37:57.:38:01.

most ethnically diverse region outside London,

:38:02.:38:04.

and it's a key battle ground for the ethnic

:38:05.:38:06.

I would like to buy this suit for my son, please.

:38:07.:38:13.

Mrs Chipta and her husband moved to Birmingham from

:38:14.:38:15.

He worked in a factory, she started her own venture.

:38:16.:38:20.

Was it you who set up the shop?

:38:21.:38:21.

Her son now runs the place, and is a keen Outer.

:38:22.:38:33.

Most of the products that we sell now are manufactured outside

:38:34.:38:37.

of Europe, so if we were to be able to have trade agreements

:38:38.:38:42.

with countries like China, with India, with Commonwealth

:38:43.:38:48.

countries, we would be able to be much more competitive on these goods

:38:49.:38:52.

We are paying into a club which we personally don't

:38:53.:38:56.

What I would like is a fair immigration system.

:38:57.:39:01.

Do you feel there is an irony in the fact that somebody like you,

:39:02.:39:05.

whose parents came over, you were immigrants originally,

:39:06.:39:08.

and now you are complaining about new immigrants?

:39:09.:39:11.

If we had a system which was fair, which went all around the world,

:39:12.:39:19.

so we get the best people from around the world,

:39:20.:39:23.

so we are able to get computer programmers from India,

:39:24.:39:27.

we are able to get nurses, doctors from any of the Commonwealth

:39:28.:39:30.

countries where they speak our language, they have the same law

:39:31.:39:35.

system and everything as us, it is much easier.

:39:36.:39:38.

So immigration isn't the problem, it is the levels of immigration.

:39:39.:39:48.

Across town at Birmingham's Mack gallery, an exhibition

:39:49.:39:50.

by Barbara Walker of the contribution made by black

:39:51.:39:53.

servicemen and women to Britain's Armed Forces.

:39:54.:39:56.

A visual reminder of our Commonwealth heritage.

:39:57.:40:00.

But amongst the people we gathered here, all of Caribbean descent,

:40:01.:40:03.

few saw those links as a decider in the referendum.

:40:04.:40:07.

Our unity is strength, and if the UK leaves Europe,

:40:08.:40:11.

So I think it will have a devastating effect on businesses.

:40:12.:40:20.

I know a lot of people are quite emotional about this,

:40:21.:40:23.

losing our jobs to people from abroad, but...

:40:24.:40:25.

When we have historically been the great nation that Britain

:40:26.:40:33.

managed to carve itself out to be, a big part of that was our link

:40:34.:40:36.

There was our link to other parts of the world that actually

:40:37.:40:41.

helped us to gain our strength economically and politically.

:40:42.:40:43.

I think we are in a different world now.

:40:44.:40:46.

We don't know what is going to happen if we separate,

:40:47.:40:49.

and whilst some are arguing that to separate could be better,

:40:50.:40:52.

that could is a really, really big could.

:40:53.:40:55.

I'm hopeful that some of the discussions and some

:40:56.:40:58.

of the things that we will want to change are really about taking

:40:59.:41:01.

away some of the support mechanisms for people right

:41:02.:41:03.

If it wasn't for Europe, we wouldn't have the protections

:41:04.:41:09.

for maternity leave, the 48-hour rule, and if you remove

:41:10.:41:12.

all the protections, then I fear that those sorts

:41:13.:41:14.

Older voters are more likely to be for Brexit,

:41:15.:41:23.

but that is not how Raka Omar sees it.

:41:24.:41:25.

My grandfather for example came over here in the '60s from Jamaica, so it

:41:26.:41:28.

took around six weeks to get here, and he really fought for a better

:41:29.:41:32.

life, and coming here, really working after World War II,

:41:33.:41:34.

the country was completely dismantled, and helping with others

:41:35.:41:36.

to put that back together, working in the NHS,

:41:37.:41:39.

building our country back again to really build a stronger

:41:40.:41:41.

European Union as well as obviously the UK, to leave that EU

:41:42.:41:45.

In the more recent past, Britain did things slightly differently,

:41:46.:42:00.

and therefore we've got a lot more Caribbeans,

:42:01.:42:02.

a lot more Indians in the UK compared to the other European

:42:03.:42:06.

countries, and being out of the EU could potentially allow us to build

:42:07.:42:09.

Will ethnic minority voters decide this referendum?

:42:10.:42:19.

Operation Black Vote said today one third of Britain's 4 million

:42:20.:42:23.

or so BAME voters are not actually registered.

:42:24.:42:26.

Today the organisation released this controversial poster in an attempt

:42:27.:42:29.

The minority voters' apparent support of Remain

:42:30.:42:35.

could prove decisive, but only if they turn out to vote.

:42:36.:42:45.

That is all we have time for this evening.

:42:46.:42:48.

Kirsty will be presenting tomorrow, and will be talking

:42:49.:42:51.

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